Michael Malice and Yaron Brook: Ayn Rand, Human Nature, and Anarchy
政治与社会哲学与宗教技术与编程心理与人性音乐与艺术
📋 章节目录
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🔑 关键词
dongoingrandrealitygovernmentsaidideassayingayngotdidndoesnmoneybitcoinsurerealtalkinghumangoldbook
💬 精彩语录
"sacrifices and big sacrifices you made, you did the wrong thing and you're evading that you betrayed your unconscious."
你做出了牺牲，做出了巨大的牺牲，你做了错误的事情，你正在逃避你背叛了你的无意识。
— Michael Malice and Yaron Brook （1:30:14.840）
"So my point is what are presented as the strongest criticism of anarchism are inevitably descriptions"
所以我的观点是，对无政府主义最强烈的批评不可避免地是描述
— Michael Malice and Yaron Brook （3:15:38.280）
"babysitter or don't have kids, which is the better approach. Here's a question. What book did Ayn Rand"
保姆或没有孩子，这是更好的方法。这里有一个问题。安兰德写了什么书
— Michael Malice and Yaron Brook （4:13:39.040）
"certain point where they call me up, they're having a problem and I've helped them with that problem."
当他们打电话给我时，他们遇到了问题，我已经帮助他们解决了这个问题。
— Michael Malice and Yaron Brook （4:14:15.520）
"the nastier we are to one another. Individualists who are pursuing their own happiness are incredibly"
我们彼此之间的关系越恶劣。追求自己幸福的个人主义者是不可思议的
— Michael Malice and Yaron Brook （4:20:00.800）
🎙️ 完整对话（5354 条）
Lex Fridman (00:00.000)
The following is a conversation with Michael Mallis and Yaron Brook, Michael's third time
以下是迈克尔·马利斯和亚伦·布鲁克的对话，迈克尔第三次
Lex Fridman (00:05.680)
on this podcast and Yaron's second, but together for the first time.
这是 Yaron 的第二个播客，但却是第一次在一起。
Lex Fridman (00:11.640)
Michael is an anarchist, political thinker, host of a podcast called You're Welcome and
迈克尔是一位无政府主义者、政治思想家、播客“不客气”的主持人，
Lex Fridman (00:18.280)
author of Dear Reader, The New Right and two upcoming books Anarchist Handbook and The
《亲爱的读者》、《新右派》和两本即将出版的书籍《无政府主义者手册》和《The New Right》的作者
Lex Fridman (00:25.220)
White Pill.
白色药丸。
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (00:26.680)
Yaron is an objectivist philosopher, chairman of the Ayn Rand Institute, host of The Yaron
亚龙 (Yaron) 是一位客观主义哲学家、艾因兰德研究所 (Ayn Rand Institute) 主席、The Yaron 主持人
Lex Fridman (00:33.800)
Brook Show and coauthor of The Free Market Revolution and Equal is Unfair.
布鲁克·肖 (Brook Show) 是《自由市场革命》和《平等是不公平》的合著者。
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (00:41.200)
Quick mention of our sponsors, Ground News, Public Goods, Athletic Greens, Brave and Four
快速提及我们的赞助商、地面新闻、公共物品、运动绿党、勇敢者和四人组
Lex Fridman (00:48.400)
Sigmatic.
西格玛蒂克。
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (00:49.560)
Check them out in the description to support this podcast.
在说明中查看它们以支持此播客。
Lex Fridman (00:53.160)
As a side note, let me say that this conversation is a kind of experiment.
作为旁注，我要说的是，这次谈话是一种实验。
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (00:58.380)
Both Michael and Yaron are thoughtful and passionate, united in part by an interest
迈克尔和亚伦都深思熟虑且充满热情，部分是因为兴趣而团结在一起
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (01:03.840)
in the history and philosophy of Ayn Rand, but they are also very different in style.
他们在安·兰德的历史和哲学中都有所体现，但风格上也有很大不同。
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (01:09.600)
Good conversation, like good food, is often made delicious by pairing of contrasting elements.
良好的谈话就像美味的食物一样，通常通过对比元素的搭配而变得美味。
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (01:16.440)
For example, someone suggested I try a peanut butter, bacon and banana sandwich, which apparently
例如，有人建议我尝试花生酱、培根和香蕉三明治，这显然
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (01:22.900)
is very good.
非常好。
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (01:24.640)
Among the three of us, I don't know who's the peanut butter, who's the bacon and who's
我们三个人，我不知道谁是花生酱，谁是培根，谁是
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (01:28.240)
the banana, I'm guessing it's probably me, I'm the banana, but I hope the final result,
香蕉，我猜可能是我，我是香蕉，但我希望最后的结果，
Lex Fridman (01:34.880)
the final dish, if you will, is equally delicious.
如果你愿意的话，最后一道菜也同样美味。
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (01:38.680)
We talk through, I think, a lot of interesting ideas, sometimes disagreeing, sometimes even
我认为我们讨论了很多有趣的想法，有时不同意，有时甚至
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (01:44.800)
in rare cases saying something humorous, including dark humor, especially in Michael's case.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (01:51.000)
All three of us are sensitive to the suffering in the world today and throughout human history.
Lex Fridman (01:55.760)
We think about it, we talk about it, and we deal with it in different ways.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (02:00.520)
Be patient with us.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (02:02.200)
Whether you agree, disagree, enjoy or dislike the result, I hope you feel listened, you're
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (02:07.280)
a wiser person on the other end of it, I know I was.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (02:10.960)
Mostly, I really enjoyed this conversation because no matter what Michael and Yaron believe,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (02:17.280)
underneath it all, they're genuine, kind human beings that I'm lucky to be able to
Lex Fridman (02:22.600)
hang out with and learn from.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (02:25.420)
This is the Lex Friedman Podcast and here's my conversation with Michael Malus and Yaron
Lex Fridman (02:31.480)
Rook.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (02:32.480)
I've been a huge fan of the two of you for the longest time.
Lex Fridman (02:36.800)
Are we recording now?
Lex Fridman (02:37.800)
Is it starting?
Lex Fridman (02:38.800)
Or are you just talking?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (02:39.800)
I'm not recording at all.
Lex Fridman (02:40.800)
He's not going to compliment us if it's not part of the show.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (02:43.320)
Yes, he does, all the time.
Lex Fridman (02:44.320)
He speaks very highly of me.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (02:45.320)
You, I don't know.
Lex Fridman (02:46.320)
I'm not sure.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (02:47.320)
He only does this to me on the show.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (02:48.320)
Objectivists don't like charity, so don't compliment him, he won't think it's sincere.
Lex Fridman (02:53.120)
So it's an incredible honor that the both of you would show up here.
Lex Fridman (02:57.360)
If we, let me just ask this sort of profound philosophical question.
Lex Fridman (03:01.600)
How well do you think we would get along if we were stuck on a desert island together?
Lex Fridman (03:05.600)
What would life be like?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (03:07.440)
I thought the original question you had, that you sent us this question, was how long would
Lex Fridman (03:12.100)
it take for us to murder one another or something like that.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (03:13.960)
There was murder in the question, if I remember.
Lex Fridman (03:15.600)
I, I, listen, he sent us homework, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (03:18.600)
All these questions.
Lex Fridman (03:19.600)
I ignored it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (03:20.600)
I didn't spend four years at Patrick Henry University to do homework.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (03:23.720)
To answer your question, I think it would be very easy for us to live together in a
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (03:29.160)
desert island in terms of interpersonal.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (03:30.860)
I know, and I say this because I know a lot of people who have been the show's survivor.
Lex Fridman (03:34.500)
So they, and I know a little bit about the dynamics.
Lex Fridman (03:36.920)
So when you have people who are intelligent, who are going to have the same goals, I mean,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (03:42.680)
there's space to go away if I'm annoyed at you, I don't think it would be that hard at
Lex Fridman (03:46.400)
all.
Lex Fridman (03:47.400)
What's our goals on a desert island?
Lex Fridman (03:48.400)
Food, shelter.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (03:49.400)
Survival.
Lex Fridman (03:50.400)
Survival.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (03:51.400)
Survival, basically.
Lex Fridman (03:52.400)
Survival and getting out of there, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (03:53.400)
You don't want to stay on the desert island.
Lex Fridman (03:54.840)
So yeah, I don't, I don't think, I think that's true of any three, you know, semi rational
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (04:01.440)
people who, you know, who basically share the goal that they want to survive.
Lex Fridman (04:06.040)
They want to thrive.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (04:07.040)
They want to get off of the island.
Lex Fridman (04:09.080)
Why would there be conflict?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (04:10.080)
I mean, there would be conflict, but, and there can be conflict, but they'd find ways
Lex Fridman (04:14.560)
to deal with it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (04:15.560)
I don't have this negative view of human beings, particularly not as individuals.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (04:20.240)
It's when they get into mobs and groups and collectives that ideology can really motivate
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (04:26.760)
them to do horrible things.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (04:28.400)
One of the things that really drives me crazy is how sinister an impact the book Lord of
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (04:32.960)
the Flies has had on our culture.
Lex Fridman (04:34.920)
I read it in high school.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (04:36.400)
It's a superb book.
Lex Fridman (04:37.400)
That's not even a question, but it's not accurate.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (04:39.840)
We see in many situations where people are trapped together under difficult circumstances.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (04:45.320)
Obviously that book's about children that very quickly it is not about conflict.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (04:50.040)
It very quickly becomes about cooperation.
Lex Fridman (04:52.960)
Let's work together.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (04:53.960)
We all have the same goal.
Lex Fridman (04:55.000)
This is not a time to worry about other things.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (04:57.320)
It really, the human beings, the animal instinct that kicks in is the social animal and I'm
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (05:04.040)
going to shut up and go over there and have a, like stomp my feet instead of arguing with
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (05:08.160)
your own because we're really trapped in the situation and we need to make it work.
Lex Fridman (05:11.760)
Well, and to the extent that they're bad people, bad people are dealt with, right?
Lex Fridman (05:14.880)
So this is true of all of, you know, how did we survive as a species, right?
Lex Fridman (05:19.360)
How have we survived as a species?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (05:20.640)
We've been on a desert island in a sense as a species forever.
Lex Fridman (05:24.280)
Tribes survived.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (05:25.280)
They survived by cooperation.
Lex Fridman (05:26.280)
They survived by dealing with bad people.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (05:31.200)
Civilization is created by people cooperating and working together and allowing individuals
Lex Fridman (05:37.040)
to thrive within the group and when bad people arise, they deal with them, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (05:43.120)
Now sometimes these groups get captured by bad people and bad ideas and probably from
Lex Fridman (05:50.700)
day one that was going on, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (05:52.900)
The whole tribe is probably a bad idea to begin with, but you know, underneath it all,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (05:59.380)
the fact is that to survive as a species, we need to think, we need to be rational and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (06:06.400)
if we don't have any respect for reason, then we would all die.
Lex Fridman (06:10.720)
We would die off.
Lex Fridman (06:11.840)
So that's a hopeful message, but where does that go wrong?
Lex Fridman (06:15.000)
So with three people we might get along, we would focus on the basics of life, we have
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (06:19.440)
similar goals.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (06:20.600)
Once women are introduced, their incessant irrationalism and less of their hormones for
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (06:26.400)
SOL.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (06:27.400)
Look, three of us on a desert island would be nice, but without women, it wouldn't be
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (06:31.200)
fun.
Lex Fridman (06:32.200)
I'm going to edit out half the things Michael said through this broadcast.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (06:34.960)
As you know, I used to run the Ayn Rand Institute.
Lex Fridman (06:37.320)
She was a woman last time I looked.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (06:38.880)
Oh, wait a minute.
Lex Fridman (06:39.880)
You know, you know exactly what I'm going to say.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (06:42.560)
When Ludwig von Mises or Hazlitt, I don't know who it was, Mises was praising Ayn Rand
Lex Fridman (06:47.840)
and I think it was Hazlitt who said it to her.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (06:50.320)
He said, Ludwig von Mises said, you're the smartest man I've ever met.
Lex Fridman (06:54.160)
And Ayn Rand said, did he say man?
Lex Fridman (06:56.520)
Right?
Lex Fridman (06:57.520)
No, she viewed as a compliment.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (06:58.520)
Right.
Lex Fridman (06:59.520)
But she wanted to be clear that he said man.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (07:00.520)
She was excited.
Lex Fridman (07:01.520)
Yes.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (07:02.520)
Absolutely.
Lex Fridman (07:03.520)
I took it as her perceiving him as seeing her as a full equal.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (07:07.760)
Oh, I think that's right.
Lex Fridman (07:09.080)
I think that's right.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (07:10.080)
Plus, I think the perception out there, the perception in the culture of man as being
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (07:15.400)
rational was a compliment to her because that was affirming that he viewed her as a rational.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (07:22.960)
Yeah, because Mises is old school.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (07:24.440)
He's an older Eastern European guy, so he would definitely have these rigid views.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (07:28.360)
Like his wife, I read her autobiography, Margit von Mises, and basically he made her his secretary
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (07:33.240)
to the point where if he's typing something or he had something handwritten, she had to
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (07:37.560)
type it out.
Lex Fridman (07:38.560)
And if she made a typo, he would tear up the page, she had to start from the beginning.
Lex Fridman (07:41.660)
But it's like, this is the role of the man, this is the role of the woman.
Lex Fridman (07:44.400)
So for him to regard her, this was kind of a breaking through moment.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (07:47.560)
Not that she was secretly misogynist.
Lex Fridman (07:51.320)
So I think we go wrong when people try to understand the world around them and come
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (07:55.680)
up with wrong ideas.
Lex Fridman (07:57.680)
And it's natural that they would come up with wrong ideas because it's hard to figure out
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (08:02.360)
what's right.
Lex Fridman (08:03.580)
So we start with trying to come up with mystical explanations for the existence of the things
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (08:10.000)
around us.
Lex Fridman (08:11.780)
And that I think very quickly leads to some people being able to communicate with the
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (08:16.720)
mystical stuff out there and some people not being able to communicate and some people
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (08:20.920)
wanting to control other people and using those pseudo explanations as a way to control.
Lex Fridman (08:27.380)
So you always have, Rand called it Attila and the witch doctor.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (08:31.100)
You always have a witch doctor, the mystic, the philosopher, the intellectual, the philosopher
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (08:37.320)
king, and you have an Attila, you have somebody who wants control of the people, who's willing
Lex Fridman (08:43.640)
to use force to control other people.
Lex Fridman (08:45.960)
And when those two get together, that's when things go bad.
Lex Fridman (08:49.400)
And unfortunately, 95, 98% of human history is when those two are together.
Lex Fridman (08:57.560)
And so the not having them together, having the right ideas, and the right ideas are ones
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (09:02.120)
that are not exclusive to those guys and where we don't allow Attila to have that kind of
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (09:07.720)
physical power over us, that's an exception and that's rare and that's what needs to be
Lex Fridman (09:13.920)
defended.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (09:14.920)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (09:15.920)
Stalin's not personally killing people.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (09:16.920)
Hitler's not personally killing people.
Lex Fridman (09:17.920)
Charles Manson's not personally killing people.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (09:18.960)
They need their goons.
Lex Fridman (09:20.320)
They need their goons, but also they don't have original ideas.
Lex Fridman (09:25.640)
Everything Stalin says is original to him, right?
Lex Fridman (09:28.280)
He needs a Marx, even Lenin, right?
Lex Fridman (09:31.140)
They all need a Marx, right?
Lex Fridman (09:33.040)
And Marx needs a particular line of thinkers that come before him that set him up for these
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (09:40.020)
kind of ideas.
Lex Fridman (09:41.260)
So Stalin both needs his goons, even though he's somewhat of a goon, particularly Stalin.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (09:45.320)
Yeah, he's a bank robber, yeah.
Lex Fridman (09:46.760)
And then, so take Lenin, Lenin I think is a better example because Lenin's more intellectual
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (09:51.300)
if you will.
Lex Fridman (09:52.300)
Lenin needs his goons, he needs his Stalins, but Lenin also needs his Marx.
Lex Fridman (09:56.320)
And we don't want to let Marx off the hook because Marx knows, I think, implicitly that
Lex Fridman (10:02.000)
his ideas have to lead to Lenin and Stalin.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (10:05.340)
His ideas are not neutral.
Lex Fridman (10:06.640)
I don't think it's implicit at all.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (10:08.200)
I think Marx very much glorified revolution, blood and terror, this is not implicit in
Lex Fridman (10:14.080)
the slightest.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (10:15.080)
No, absolutely.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (10:16.080)
I mean, there are letters between him and Engels where they talk about which peoples
Lex Fridman (10:17.800)
will have to be eliminated because they don't have that proletarian thing, right?
Lex Fridman (10:23.720)
So I think certain peoples in Southern Europe are not appropriate for the utopia to come
Lex Fridman (10:31.360)
and will have to be gone.
Lex Fridman (10:32.940)
And Marx also had this concept which we still see today in garbled ways of polylogism, which
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (10:38.600)
is if you're a capitalist and I'm bourgeois or I'm a worker, your logic is different than
Lex Fridman (10:44.680)
mine.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (10:45.680)
It's really going to be impossible for us to communicate.
Lex Fridman (10:47.800)
And at a certain point, you're going to have to be liquidated.
Lex Fridman (10:49.920)
And they pretend that doesn't mean murdered, but it means murdered.
Lex Fridman (10:52.480)
And very quickly, everyone becomes a capitalist or bourgeois.
Lex Fridman (10:54.600)
And then you have the Holodomor and things like this.
Lex Fridman (10:57.760)
No, he knows exactly where it's going to lead.
Lex Fridman (10:59.800)
And this is why people say, oh, Marx is not evil.
Lex Fridman (11:02.640)
He just wrote books.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (11:03.640)
No, it's the people who write books who are responsible for the way history evolves.
Lex Fridman (11:09.180)
And they know the bad guys certainly know the consequence of their ideas, and they need
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (11:16.040)
to bear the moral responsibility for what happens when the ideas are implemented.
Lex Fridman (11:20.600)
Here's a way.
Lex Fridman (11:21.600)
Can I ask a question?
Lex Fridman (11:22.600)
Yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (11:23.600)
Because I think I know more about Rand than Yaron does.
Lex Fridman (11:24.600)
So let's see.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (11:25.600)
Oh.
Lex Fridman (11:26.600)
Okay.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (11:27.600)
The gauntlet has been thrown down.
Lex Fridman (11:28.600)
Who did Ayn Rand say is the most evil man who ever lived?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (11:30.880)
Immanuel Kant.
Lex Fridman (11:31.880)
That's right.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (11:32.880)
Correct.
Lex Fridman (11:33.880)
No, that I know.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (11:34.880)
I mean, it's a big deal that Immanuel Kant is.
Lex Fridman (11:36.640)
And most people don't understand why, because if you read Kant, there's certain passages
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (11:41.240)
in Kant that sound pretty liberal, they sound pretty, it sounds like he's for the individual,
Lex Fridman (11:47.040)
he sounds like he's for the American Revolution, things like that.
Lex Fridman (11:50.120)
But when you actually read his philosophy and what he's trying to defend and what he's
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (11:53.360)
trying to undermine, he's trying to undermine the foundations that make the revolution possible,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (11:59.160)
that make freedom and individualism possible.
Lex Fridman (12:01.600)
He's trying to destroy the Enlightenment.
Lex Fridman (12:03.560)
And the Enlightenment are those ideas that make freedom, individualism feasible.
Lex Fridman (12:08.960)
He's trying to undermine reason.
Lex Fridman (12:10.720)
And without reason, we're nothing.
Lex Fridman (12:14.240)
We can't survive as a species.
Lex Fridman (12:16.240)
And that's why she thought he was the most evil person, because his ideas undermine the
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (12:21.520)
very foundations of what it requires to be a human being, reason and individualism.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (12:27.000)
Those are the things he's trying to eviscerate.
Lex Fridman (12:29.240)
I know you've talked about Hoffman before.
Lex Fridman (12:32.480)
So Hoffman is a modern day attempt to, Donald Hoffman, Donald Hoffman is the University
Lex Fridman (12:42.520)
of California, Irvine, a neurologist, a neuroscientist, something like that.
Lex Fridman (12:47.520)
So I met him once and we were at one of these conferences where you do a quick intro, you
Lex Fridman (12:53.040)
sit and you do a quick intro.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (12:54.040)
His introduction was, I've just written a book that proves that evolution has conditioned
Lex Fridman (12:58.560)
us not to see reality.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (13:03.000)
That is very Kantian.
Lex Fridman (13:04.000)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (13:05.000)
And he is basically just presenting pseudoscience to defend Kant's position about epistemology
Lex Fridman (13:13.120)
and about metaphysics.
Lex Fridman (13:14.920)
And there's nothing original there.
Lex Fridman (13:18.200)
And he puts up a bunch of equations and he says, I ran a simulation and it proves I'm
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (13:23.200)
right.
Lex Fridman (13:24.200)
So Yaron is a little bit frustrated with Donald Hoffman's work.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (13:28.560)
Let me...
Lex Fridman (13:29.560)
I'm not frustrated.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (13:30.560)
I just think it's completely wrong and it's anti life, anti mind, anti evolution.
Lex Fridman (13:35.960)
I think he's an anti evolutionist at the end.
Lex Fridman (13:38.260)
And I think it, you know, anytime you say, look, here's the important point.
Lex Fridman (13:42.160)
Anytime you say reality doesn't exist, well, who are you?
Lex Fridman (13:47.200)
What do you mean by reality?
Lex Fridman (13:48.200)
What do any of your words mean?
Lex Fridman (13:49.280)
What does anything you say even mean if it doesn't refer to something that's actually
Lex Fridman (13:52.880)
out there in reality?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (13:53.880)
I try to defend this point of view because in a certain kind of sense, I hear it as being
Lex Fridman (14:00.040)
humble in the face of the uncertainty that's around us.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (14:03.520)
Sort of, you know, when you speak with the confidence of Ayn Rand and yourself, that
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (14:10.840)
reason can be like this weapon that cuts through all the bullshit of the world and makes us
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (14:16.000)
like have an ethical moral life and all those kinds of things.
Lex Fridman (14:19.680)
You kind of assume that reason is a superpower that has no limits.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (14:24.760)
Wait, hold on, hold on a second.
Lex Fridman (14:27.760)
But I got this one.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (14:31.960)
See this is already leading to a murder by words and we've been only talking for 20 minutes.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (14:37.520)
The three of us wouldn't get together, we wouldn't get along together on an island.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (14:40.520)
We'll just make him our slave.
Lex Fridman (14:42.000)
We're all going to get along.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (14:43.920)
He's just going to do the work.
Lex Fridman (14:44.920)
But I'm afraid I cannot provide any value as a slave, so this is not going to end well
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (14:49.840)
for me.
Lex Fridman (14:50.840)
We could provide value as dinner.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (14:52.640)
That's the problem I'm trying to get to.
Lex Fridman (14:54.160)
That's a solution.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (14:55.160)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (14:56.160)
But Donald Hoffman says that there is like he makes an argument that exactly as you said,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (15:04.760)
that what we perceive is not, is very, very far from actual physical reality.
Lex Fridman (15:12.460)
In fact, we're not able to perceive the physical reality at all.
Lex Fridman (15:17.600)
And he also makes the bigger claim that evolution prefers beings who are not attached to reality.
Lex Fridman (15:26.520)
So like evolution created creatures that are basically functioning way outside of what
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (15:31.160)
the physical reality is.
Lex Fridman (15:32.160)
I got this.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (15:33.160)
I got this.
Lex Fridman (15:34.160)
Okay.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (15:35.160)
Because there's a lot to unpack here and I hate all of it.
Lex Fridman (15:37.160)
Okay.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (15:38.160)
First of all, no, no, I'm serious.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (15:40.120)
First of all, when you were making that comment about how, you know, reason is a superpower
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (15:44.800)
beyond limit, you're being ironic, but it's true.
Lex Fridman (15:48.800)
And I'll give you one example, which is astronomy.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (15:51.000)
If you look at the physical size of the universe, it's literally in one sense incomprehensible.
Lex Fridman (15:55.980)
So he's right in the sense that I do not understand and none of us understand what it means for
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (16:00.440)
93 million miles away for the sun to be.
Lex Fridman (16:02.440)
It makes no, it's a number on another screen, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (16:05.260)
That said, the fact that my mind, and I'm not one of the great thinkers of all time
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (16:10.880)
is getting there, is capable of appreciating what the sun means, what heliocentrism means.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (16:19.080)
The fact that we can, you know, you're a math person that you could look at galaxies and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (16:23.720)
reduce it to 10 to the 64th power in terms of distance that shows the unlimited capacity
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (16:31.120)
of the human mind and reason.
Lex Fridman (16:32.720)
Number one.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (16:33.720)
Number two is if he says that evolution favors those who are not in touch with reality, and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (16:41.360)
I don't know in what context he's saying that because that sentence could mean a lot of
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (16:44.320)
different things.
Lex Fridman (16:46.440)
Evolution is what guides, reality is what guides evolution.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (16:50.900)
Evolution works because you are fitted to the reality of the situation around you.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (16:56.680)
It's not that someone is sitting down and says, well, I'm going to add a fin to this
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (17:01.440)
animal and that fin helps it swim.
Lex Fridman (17:04.160)
I engineered a check mark.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (17:05.720)
It's that mutations occur.
Lex Fridman (17:08.360)
The vast majority of these mutations are against reality.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (17:11.680)
They do not further this animal's life or this plant's life or this fungus's life, but
Lex Fridman (17:16.640)
the ones that are in touch with reality, such as, okay, it's really cold here.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (17:22.300)
There's no predators here.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (17:23.920)
If I could figure out, and I'm using that term very loosely, a way where I could survive
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (17:28.280)
in the cold, I don't have predation.
Lex Fridman (17:30.480)
It's really great.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (17:31.760)
The fact that unconsciously and mindlessly this process can force the mutation and evolution
Lex Fridman (17:38.840)
of the form precisely means that they're in touch with reality.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (17:42.000)
Now, if he means the consciousness is not in touch with reality, that's another thing
Lex Fridman (17:47.040)
that I really hate.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (17:48.400)
You're referring to the reality as like the biological reality of evolution, but all of
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (17:52.440)
that is based on many other layers of abstraction that ultimately has quantum mechanics underneath
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (17:57.680)
it all, and he's saying somewhere along the layers, you start to lose more and more and
Lex Fridman (18:01.720)
more attachment to the actual.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (18:02.720)
Hold on.
Lex Fridman (18:03.720)
Can I add one more sentence?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (18:04.720)
Sure, sure.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (18:05.720)
I do not, I despise the idea, I say despise, I'm not using this, I'm not joking, the idea
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (18:11.960)
that the reality we don't live in is somehow more real than this.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (18:17.080)
That is a very dangerous idea to say, well, quantum works in this way, and I'm sure he's
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (18:20.920)
correct and none of us disagree with that.
Lex Fridman (18:23.880)
What we perceive, macro, works in a different way, well, that's the real reality and this
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (18:28.200)
is fake.
Lex Fridman (18:29.200)
Bullshit.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (18:30.200)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (18:31.200)
This is the real reality.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (18:32.200)
That is a different type, a subset, but no one's living there, and humanity is the starting
Lex Fridman (18:37.280)
point.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (18:38.280)
It's a subset that has to integrate with this world.
Lex Fridman (18:41.760)
There isn't two worlds, one in the quantum world and one here.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (18:44.840)
They're integrated.
Lex Fridman (18:45.840)
Now, we might not have the scientific knowledge to know how they're integrated, but so what?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (18:49.040)
We know that there's only one reality and that's this one.
Lex Fridman (18:52.360)
He has this difference.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (18:53.440)
He says, evolution matches up to fitness, not to reality, and he creates this dichotomy
Lex Fridman (18:59.960)
between fitness and reality, but that's complete nonsense.
Lex Fridman (19:03.320)
There is no such thing as a concept of fitness outside of fitness to what?
Lex Fridman (19:08.980)
To reality.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (19:10.640)
Fitness and reality are the same thing.
Lex Fridman (19:12.400)
They're not separate things.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (19:14.180)
The whole way he sets this up intellectually is wrong, I think to some extent dishonest,
Lex Fridman (19:21.300)
and certainly philosophically corrupt.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (19:23.140)
It's Kantian.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (19:24.140)
Again, he's accepted Kant's ideas, and everybody pretty much has accepted Kant's ideas for
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (19:29.520)
the last 200 years, and they give it a different facade.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (19:32.960)
He's giving it an evolutionary facade, but it's just a facade for the same idea, and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (19:37.000)
that is that somehow because we have eyes, we cannot see, because the light waves are
Lex Fridman (19:43.080)
going through a medium, and that medium necessarily distorted.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (19:46.440)
The medium changes the resolution at which you see.
Lex Fridman (19:49.720)
If I take off my glasses, I'm seeing it a little differently.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (19:52.640)
The thing is still there, and the thing is still there in the way I see it, because I'm
Lex Fridman (19:56.480)
grasping the handle and lifting the cup.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (19:58.840)
That's not an illusion.
Lex Fridman (19:59.840)
That is a real cup.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:00:01.700)
The nominee of the party, the Senator, the governor of the party, or some person in your
Lex Fridman (1:00:07.220)
mind who has never existed and there's no evidence for them existing.
Lex Fridman (1:00:11.080)
So what Kant did is he bifurcated reality into what we see around us, the phenomenal
Lex Fridman (1:00:16.800)
world, but then it's inferior.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:00:19.360)
The real world, the noumenal world, we can't access it because we have eyes.
Lex Fridman (1:00:25.640)
We only see the thing as it appears, not as it is in itself.
Lex Fridman (1:00:29.440)
And because of this, everything we know is a shadow and is secondary.
Lex Fridman (1:00:33.200)
And that's Plato, straight out of Plato.
Lex Fridman (1:00:35.320)
And the real reality is this realm of ideas.
Lex Fridman (1:00:38.360)
So when Ben is saying facts don't care about your feelings, what he is really saying is
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:00:44.000)
reality comes first.
Lex Fridman (1:00:45.360)
Your feelings have to be a response or a reaction to it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:00:48.800)
You can't say, this is how I feel.
Lex Fridman (1:00:50.720)
This table doesn't care.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:00:52.240)
You can yell at it all day long.
Lex Fridman (1:00:54.040)
It will still be indifferent to your emotional state because it comes first.
Lex Fridman (1:00:57.560)
So it's a great statement.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:00:59.160)
I think he's cribbing it from Ayn Rand in a sense, and there's a sense in which he is.
Lex Fridman (1:01:04.320)
I mean, who popularized that kind of idea?
Lex Fridman (1:01:07.000)
And Ben has read Ayn Rand quite extensively.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:01:09.320)
Not enough.
Lex Fridman (1:01:10.320)
Not enough.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:01:11.320)
Well.
Lex Fridman (1:01:12.320)
Not enough to reference her.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:01:13.320)
That's the way the army goes.
Lex Fridman (1:01:14.320)
So yeah, obviously.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:01:15.320)
He may be read enough, but didn't understand enough.
Lex Fridman (1:01:19.560)
But so it's absolutely reality.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:01:24.640)
Reality is unaffected by your emotional state and your feelings about it.
Lex Fridman (1:01:29.520)
And this is a great claim against the idealism, the philosophical idealism of much of the
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:01:35.120)
world out there, both left and right.
Lex Fridman (1:01:36.480)
I think politically, culturally, the left and right are detached from reality.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:01:40.520)
They live in a different dimension, in a different space that they are creating in their own
Lex Fridman (1:01:44.560)
minds that has nothing to do with the real world.
Lex Fridman (1:01:47.160)
And when they fail, they make stuff up to justify their failure, right?
Lex Fridman (1:01:52.680)
So all of really the ideas that are promulgated today on both sides are this kind of detached
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:02:01.120)
from reality.
Lex Fridman (1:02:02.120)
We're putting emotions or ideas before reality itself.
Lex Fridman (1:02:07.320)
But I believe that emotions are responses.
Lex Fridman (1:02:11.360)
The responses to reality conditioned by our existing concepts.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:02:17.320)
You're going to have to talk slowly to talk emotions to Lex because he doesn't really
Lex Fridman (1:02:20.200)
understand what that is.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:02:21.200)
I don't understand.
Lex Fridman (1:02:22.200)
That's a really, you got to really taste your words.
Lex Fridman (1:02:24.400)
But he's big on love?
Lex Fridman (1:02:25.920)
What is love?
Lex Fridman (1:02:26.920)
But he's big on love?
Lex Fridman (1:02:27.920)
He's trying to learn.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:02:28.920)
Pretty big on love.
Lex Fridman (1:02:29.920)
I'm all in, I'm a love maximalist.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:02:32.520)
I mean, I could create, we could create an environment on this island where you would
Lex Fridman (1:02:36.800)
really feel emotions.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:02:38.200)
Like fear is an emotion.
Lex Fridman (1:02:40.120)
We could.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:02:41.120)
That's the metaphysical terror.
Lex Fridman (1:02:42.680)
We could easily terrorize you to the point where you felt fear, right?
Lex Fridman (1:02:47.280)
So we could teach him about emotion.
Lex Fridman (1:02:49.760)
But emotions are a response to reality.
Lex Fridman (1:02:51.280)
So some people, for example, you could take five different people and show them exactly
Lex Fridman (1:02:54.960)
the same thing.
Lex Fridman (1:02:55.960)
And some of them would feel fear and some of them would actually feel indifferent and
Lex Fridman (1:03:00.600)
other people might feel love, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:03:03.720)
I think Leonard Peacock uses the example of looking through a microscope and seeing a,
Lex Fridman (1:03:09.880)
I don't know, a virus or bacteria.
Lex Fridman (1:03:11.560)
And for one, it's a scientist, he's made a new discovery.
Lex Fridman (1:03:13.880)
He feels pride and love and awe.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:03:17.520)
The one has no clue, right, and he's looking at this and it means nothing to them and somebody
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:03:22.240)
else might look at it and it's a bacteria and they feel fear because of what it could
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:03:26.600)
do to them.
Lex Fridman (1:03:27.600)
So it's conditioned by what you know, what your values are and your level of knowledge
Lex Fridman (1:03:33.260)
and what the thing is out there in reality.
Lex Fridman (1:03:35.880)
And it's that into, so your emotions respond to that.
Lex Fridman (1:03:40.560)
So aligning your emotions with your reason is making sure that your emotions are really
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:03:48.360)
conditioned by what you know explicitly versus what you've internalized implicitly that
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:03:53.900)
you might not agree with anymore.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:03:55.880)
You know, things might happen in your childhood and they probably do, right, where you get
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:04:02.160)
a trauma.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:04:03.160)
I don't know, I'm afraid of dogs and maybe when I was a five year old, some dogs jumped
Lex Fridman (1:04:09.320)
at me and I don't even remember it, right?
Lex Fridman (1:04:11.440)
But I came to a conclusion when I was five, dogs bad, dogs dangerous, right?
Lex Fridman (1:04:16.120)
And now anytime I see a dog, oh my God, that bringing my emotions aligned with reality,
Lex Fridman (1:04:20.880)
right, with my ideas is no, now I understand dogs don't have to be scary.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:04:26.160)
I can work through this and there are various techniques and hopefully if there is such
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:04:30.920)
a science of psychology, but in psychology to get you to the point where you can get
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:04:35.680)
rid of that fear and align your emotion now with your explicit ideas, and that's what
Lex Fridman (1:04:40.800)
I mean by that.
Lex Fridman (1:04:41.800)
And let me build on that, talking about your friend Putin, I think I mentioned this before
Lex Fridman (1:04:45.280)
at least maybe on the show, he was meeting with Angela Merkel.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:04:47.760)
Oh, Vladimir, please.
Lex Fridman (1:04:48.760)
Yeah, Vlad, my boy Vlad.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:04:50.880)
He was meeting with Angela Merkel, Angela Merkel has a fear of dogs, so he brought out
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:04:55.800)
his big Labrador Retriever, now for people who don't know, Labradors are very big dogs,
Lex Fridman (1:05:00.400)
but they're also like the least aggressive, it's like you could punch them in the face,
Lex Fridman (1:05:03.520)
they don't care.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:05:04.960)
That dog is not going to be more likely to attack just because she's scared.
Lex Fridman (1:05:10.440)
And I know they say animals can sense fear, domesticated dogs, if they see you're scared,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:05:15.500)
they're not going to be aggressive, they're going to try to play.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:05:17.520)
I remember when I was a kid, there was this dog, Rex, this German Shepherd, I'm five,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:05:22.240)
this dog is gigantic, and I'm sitting on the couch, the German Shepherds have been bred
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:05:26.040)
for intelligence, they're very bright dogs, they're very good with kids, he's sitting
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:05:29.080)
next to me, this thing is three times my size.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:05:32.160)
He very gently puts his paw on my leg to be like, kid, he can sense my fear, he's like,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:05:37.440)
I'm not going to do it, I want to be your friend, I'm still freaking out.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:05:40.920)
He licks my hand, it's just very scary, you know, animals are so bright, but that's the
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:05:45.000)
thing is, in terms of facts don't care about your feelings, that dog is not more likely
Lex Fridman (1:05:50.280)
to attack someone because their emotion is so intense.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:05:54.560)
It's not that I feel something very strongly, therefore, this thing is more likely to happen.
Lex Fridman (1:06:01.120)
So my intensity of my emotion does not in any way correlate, when you're being irrational,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:06:07.260)
to the likelihood of that thing actually happening.
Lex Fridman (1:06:09.320)
Now, you could have a dog that does respond to your emotion, right?
Lex Fridman (1:06:12.280)
But then it's, but then it's not, that's part of reality, right?
Lex Fridman (1:06:16.820)
That's a fact of reality that certain dogs respond to certain emotions.
Lex Fridman (1:06:20.320)
But isn't this emotion a part of reality, like, okay, let me say a word.
Lex Fridman (1:06:25.400)
So part of that, I would even say, don't let your emotion about your emotion, right, because
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:06:30.640)
sometimes you have an emotion about your emotion, don't be repressed, and identify the emotion
Lex Fridman (1:06:36.760)
as reality, and evaluate it, don't judge it, evaluate it.
Lex Fridman (1:06:41.280)
Is it a rational emotion?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:06:42.520)
Is it consistent with my, like, if I'm afraid of these dogs, if I feel that fear, is it
Lex Fridman (1:06:47.440)
rational to be afraid of these dogs?
Lex Fridman (1:06:49.240)
But you're speaking to your own individual trajectory as a human being as you grow through
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:06:53.560)
the world and try to understand reality and connect yourself through reason to reality.
Lex Fridman (1:06:57.260)
What I'm talking about is a term like lived experience.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:07:02.280)
When you observe and analyze the, you know, conversations with other people to try to
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:07:09.880)
understand how other people see the world, doesn't emotion fundamentally integrate into
Lex Fridman (1:07:16.200)
that?
Lex Fridman (1:07:17.200)
Like, isn't emotion lived experience?
Lex Fridman (1:07:19.160)
So everybody experiences the same reality, but the way they experience it might be very
Lex Fridman (1:07:24.200)
different.
Lex Fridman (1:07:25.200)
And that has to do with what?
Lex Fridman (1:07:26.200)
It doesn't have to do with…
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:07:27.200)
With their values, with their conclusions, with their ideas, with their experiences,
Lex Fridman (1:07:30.840)
with a million different things, right?
Lex Fridman (1:07:31.840)
But is it…
Lex Fridman (1:07:32.840)
But at the end of the day, it's about the conclusions that they come to, which are then
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:07:35.480)
shaping their emotions.
Lex Fridman (1:07:37.200)
But look, emotions are not something to be avoided or ignored.
Lex Fridman (1:07:40.320)
That is, I can sense your emotions to some extent, right?
Lex Fridman (1:07:43.440)
That's a lie.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:07:44.440)
Okay, it is Lex.
Lex Fridman (1:07:45.440)
I can sense his emotions.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:07:46.440)
Thank you.
Lex Fridman (1:07:47.440)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:07:48.440)
I can sense Michael's emotions, and that's part of the fact of reality, right?
Lex Fridman (1:07:52.260)
So if Michael responds to something that I view as really, really important, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:07:58.760)
If we were standing in front of Michelangelo's David, and Michael responds to Michelangelo's
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:08:03.000)
David and goes, eh, and turned his back to it and walked away, that would be really meaningful
Lex Fridman (1:08:07.920)
to me, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:08:08.920)
That I would respond emotionally to that, and cognitively I would say, what is it about
Lex Fridman (1:08:12.640)
Michael that makes him, you know, respond this way?
Lex Fridman (1:08:16.520)
That is…
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:08:17.520)
That gives me a lot of information about him.
Lex Fridman (1:08:18.960)
So emotions are information laden, right?
Lex Fridman (1:08:22.600)
But they are not primary.
Lex Fridman (1:08:25.040)
They are responses, responses to something.
Lex Fridman (1:08:29.160)
So one must be very aware of one's own emotions, recognize them, and analyze them.
Lex Fridman (1:08:34.480)
And one should be aware of other people's emotions, if they're important to you, if
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:08:38.200)
they're not important to you.
Lex Fridman (1:08:39.200)
It doesn't matter, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:08:40.200)
You don't care about a stranger's emotion, you know, like a stranger walks up to Michael
Lex Fridman (1:08:43.240)
and Michelangelo's David and said, eh, and walks away, and I go, okay, I'm glad you're
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:08:49.920)
a stranger.
Lex Fridman (1:08:50.920)
But it's…
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:08:51.920)
Now, I don't know what Michael's response to Michelangelo's David was or is, so I'm
Lex Fridman (1:08:56.080)
a little worried about what he's gonna say.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:08:57.720)
You got candy too, that was great.
Lex Fridman (1:08:58.720)
Hey, hey, I thought I was special.
Lex Fridman (1:08:59.720)
Do I get Ukrainian candy?
Lex Fridman (1:09:00.720)
I don't know, I can't read either.
Lex Fridman (1:09:01.720)
What's this say, Joshua?
Lex Fridman (1:09:02.720)
What does that say to him?
Lex Fridman (1:09:03.720)
Is this Ukrainian candy as well?
Lex Fridman (1:09:04.720)
I thought it was sent to me from…
Lex Fridman (1:09:05.720)
Do you know that Atlas Shrugged was the bestselling book in Ukraine in 2015 and 2016?
Lex Fridman (1:09:12.720)
Do you know Atlas Shrugged was translated to Russian by someone who's now a crypto like
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:09:17.120)
billionaire and he made like six copies and I have one of them and I sent it to my great
Lex Fridman (1:09:20.600)
grandma.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:09:21.600)
No, they're more than six, but yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:09:22.600)
Oh, but they were like…
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:09:23.600)
Because I have a copy too.
Lex Fridman (1:09:24.600)
Okay.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:09:25.600)
Not I personally, the institute has a copy.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:09:26.600)
I sent it to my great grandma and she said, why is he sending me this, I wanna read books
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:09:28.960)
about love.
Lex Fridman (1:09:29.960)
And I'm like, you know what?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:09:30.960)
This is about love.
Lex Fridman (1:09:31.960)
Yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:09:32.960)
That's what you should have said.
Lex Fridman (1:09:33.960)
What's that, what does that say?
Lex Fridman (1:09:34.960)
So this says it's…
Lex Fridman (1:09:35.960)
It has vitamins and minerals.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:09:36.960)
If it's in Russian, I don't believe it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:09:37.960)
It just sounds really strange to read like health information in Russian, I'm already
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:09:50.880)
distressed.
Lex Fridman (1:09:51.880)
But look, there's a Yorshik like you have.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:09:53.440)
Exactly.
Lex Fridman (1:09:54.440)
I mean, I'm much, I like Kiev much more than I like Moscow.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:09:58.360)
Wow.
Lex Fridman (1:09:59.360)
Strong words.
Lex Fridman (1:10:00.360)
But this is, this is not, it's like hard candy.
Lex Fridman (1:10:02.640)
I don't know.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:10:03.640)
I think this, some of my friends sent me that's made with blood to give the kids iron.
Lex Fridman (1:10:07.360)
Whose blood?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:10:08.360)
Like cow blood.
Lex Fridman (1:10:09.360)
Oh.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:10:10.360)
Like with chocolate.
Lex Fridman (1:10:11.360)
All right.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:10:12.360)
You can keep it.
Lex Fridman (1:10:13.360)
That's all you.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:10:14.360)
All right.
Lex Fridman (1:10:15.360)
I'm keeping both of these.
Lex Fridman (1:10:16.360)
Can I take something you're talking about with emotion?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:10:18.480)
Something that is very pernicious in terms of emotion is people denying the validity
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:10:23.160)
of their own emotions.
Lex Fridman (1:10:24.380)
And here's one example, someone could be in an abusive relationship or have had an
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:10:28.620)
abusive childhood and they think, well, I didn't have a black eye.
Lex Fridman (1:10:32.780)
We had dinner on the table.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:10:33.780)
It wasn't abusive because you hear some other story.
Lex Fridman (1:10:35.960)
So they feel their emotion is invalid or like, oh, he never lays hands on me.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:10:41.000)
He gets drunk and is mean to me.
Lex Fridman (1:10:42.760)
He's still basically a good person.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:10:44.700)
You're denying that emotion.
Lex Fridman (1:10:46.240)
And that emotion is a response to something real.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:10:49.240)
There's an expression, I have friends who are in 12 step programs.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:10:52.200)
There's an expression there, which I think is very profound, which is if it's hysterical,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:10:56.560)
it's historical.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:10:57.560)
Meaning if some minor incident is having an extreme disproportionate impact on you, think,
Lex Fridman (1:11:03.840)
ask yourself, why am I responding in such an extreme way to some minor thing?
Lex Fridman (1:11:08.160)
And I will tell you 10 times out of 10, you'll go back and you'll be like, oh, I'm feeling
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:11:13.160)
now like I felt when I was eight and my dad came home and he was a total jerk and I didn't
Lex Fridman (1:11:18.240)
do anything wrong.
Lex Fridman (1:11:19.240)
And he thought I had, and I was complete powerless.
Lex Fridman (1:11:21.680)
And now I'm in the same situation, my boss.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:11:23.360)
I'm not that eight year old in one sense I am, in another sense I'm not, but I feel the
Lex Fridman (1:11:27.280)
same way I did as a kid.
Lex Fridman (1:11:28.560)
And this is a very useful mechanism in terms of furthering one's happiness because you
Lex Fridman (1:11:32.500)
kind of deprogram all those things that you picked up as a child.
Lex Fridman (1:11:35.360)
But it's also, you know, if you're feeling something wrong, even though you're trying
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:11:39.240)
to rationalize in a way, you know, it's not abusive because he's not hitting me.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:11:42.520)
No, the emotion is telling you something real about what's going on.
Lex Fridman (1:11:46.200)
So acknowledge it and fix the situation, right?
Lex Fridman (1:11:50.080)
So one of the powers emotions give you is they send you signals about something that
Lex Fridman (1:11:54.420)
might not be in cognition yet.
Lex Fridman (1:11:57.000)
And when you examine their emotion, it brings it to cognition and now you can act on it.
Lex Fridman (1:12:01.520)
So maybe the boss is abusive, but I didn't really think of it in those terms of my emotions
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:12:06.100)
is sending me signals.
Lex Fridman (1:12:07.720)
And now that I signal it, I'm going to resign.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:12:09.400)
I'm going to find a better, another job.
Lex Fridman (1:12:11.160)
I'm going to complain to his boss or whatever.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:12:12.960)
I'm going to take action.
Lex Fridman (1:12:14.740)
Why do you think Ayn Rand is such a controversial figure?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:12:17.940)
Last time I spoke with you on this particular podcast, the, the amount of emails I've gotten
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:12:23.800)
positive and negative and certainly negative, I don't usually get negative emails.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:12:28.720)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:12:29.720)
I can't, I can't relate.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:12:31.920)
I'm sure mine were all positive or only positive.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:12:34.480)
It was mostly women sending pictures for me to forward to you because you didn't send
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:12:39.120)
me anything.
Lex Fridman (1:12:40.120)
Oh, it's the wrong email address.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:12:43.120)
Sorry.
Lex Fridman (1:12:44.120)
I kept bouncing.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:12:45.120)
Oh, so this is love.
Lex Fridman (1:12:51.160)
Love hurts.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:12:52.160)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:12:53.160)
Yes.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:12:54.160)
No.
Lex Fridman (1:12:55.160)
But why do you think she's such a divisive figure?
Lex Fridman (1:12:56.160)
Why do you think she provokes such emotion in both the positive and the negative side?
Lex Fridman (1:12:59.560)
I'd love to hear both of your viewpoints on this.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:13:02.040)
Well, I think on the negative side and both on the positive and the negative side, I think
Lex Fridman (1:13:05.760)
it's because she's radical.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:13:08.200)
She's consistently radical.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:13:10.440)
She upends the, the premises, the ideas that are prevalent in the culture that were brought
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:13:17.720)
up on the, that, that are like, you know, they're like milk and, and, and, you know,
Lex Fridman (1:13:24.440)
the basic stuff that we're, we're growing up.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:13:26.640)
You have to be altruistic.
Lex Fridman (1:13:27.640)
You have to live for other people.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:13:29.100)
That's just basic stuff.
Lex Fridman (1:13:30.400)
Nobody challenges that.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:13:31.400)
Nobody questions it.
Lex Fridman (1:13:32.480)
And if they do question it, they usually question it from the perspective of a cynic or a bad
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:13:37.960)
guy.
Lex Fridman (1:13:38.960)
Right.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:13:39.960)
You mentioned the book, the Joker, right.
Lex Fridman (1:13:40.960)
Before we started, right.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:13:41.960)
You know, I'm going to upend the world because I don't care about other people.
Lex Fridman (1:13:44.960)
Right.
Lex Fridman (1:13:45.960)
So, so they're presented with these two alternatives and it's real in people's lives, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:13:49.840)
You either live for other people or you're a evil SOB and you know, yeah, most people
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:13:56.520)
in either one of those, but the ethic is right here.
Lex Fridman (1:14:00.760)
It's living for other people.
Lex Fridman (1:14:02.080)
And when you challenge that, they have no way cognitively to go with that.
Lex Fridman (1:14:05.560)
And the only place they can go with that cognitively is to the Joker.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:14:08.680)
It's the evil guy.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:14:09.980)
It's the somebody who wants to smash everything and destroy because they don't have this alternative
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:14:14.040)
conception of, oh no, you can be rationally self interested and that does not involve
Lex Fridman (1:14:19.740)
destruction and that does not involve, you know, just exploiting other people.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:14:25.460)
They can't conceptualize that.
Lex Fridman (1:14:27.440)
It's not in their framework.
Lex Fridman (1:14:30.060)
So it's the fact that she's so consistently on the side of self interest, for example,
Lex Fridman (1:14:34.220)
on the side of capitalism, on the side of freedom.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:14:37.640)
It's the fact that she dismisses faith to the extent that she does or to the extent
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:14:42.560)
that I do, right, that alienates people because that is completely different from what they
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:14:47.360)
brought up.
Lex Fridman (1:14:48.360)
Now the flip side of that is it's also really interesting to some people.
Lex Fridman (1:14:52.840)
So you know, a lot of, you got some positives, right?
Lex Fridman (1:14:56.900)
And I got a lot of positives from that appearance.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:14:58.640)
I know a lot of people came to my podcast because I appeared on your show.
Lex Fridman (1:15:02.280)
Why?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:15:03.280)
Because they hear something that's completely fresh, new, different, they've never heard
Lex Fridman (1:15:08.520)
before.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:15:09.520)
It appeals to something in them that maybe, you know, a lot of people say I read Ayn Rand
Lex Fridman (1:15:13.640)
and it confirmed everything I believed.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:15:15.620)
Now for me it didn't.
Lex Fridman (1:15:16.620)
It was the opposite.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:15:17.620)
It turned upside down everything I believed, but there are a lot of people out there that
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:15:21.480)
do have a sense that something's wrong in the world, that altruism is wrong, that socialism,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:15:26.360)
just the stuff and religion is wrong, but they don't have an alternative.
Lex Fridman (1:15:29.960)
It hasn't coalesced.
Lex Fridman (1:15:31.280)
And they listen to a lot of podcasts because they're trying to get ideas of what is it
Lex Fridman (1:15:35.640)
that I'm sensing that's wrong out there?
Lex Fridman (1:15:37.560)
And suddenly somebody comes out and gives them some clear explanation of things and
Lex Fridman (1:15:42.080)
they go, wow, that's what I've been looking for my whole life.
Lex Fridman (1:15:45.240)
So that's the positive for people.
Lex Fridman (1:15:48.280)
You know, and I read Ayn Rand, it just all made sense.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:15:53.000)
It all clicked and it all, and it made clear that everything I believed to that point was
Lex Fridman (1:15:59.080)
just wrong.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:16:00.080)
It just didn't, it didn't integrate.
Lex Fridman (1:16:02.280)
And I always knew to some extent it didn't integrate, but there was no alternative, so
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:16:05.720)
I believed it.
Lex Fridman (1:16:06.720)
What else was there?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:16:07.720)
I remember saying to myself as a kid, probably 15, why should I, why is this, why is morality
Lex Fridman (1:16:12.680)
all about other people?
Lex Fridman (1:16:14.040)
Why is that?
Lex Fridman (1:16:15.040)
Well, that's just the way it is, right?
Lex Fridman (1:16:17.480)
And I couldn't, couldn't come up with an explanation.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:16:19.160)
She gave me the explanation and she gave me the explanation why it's wrong to do that.
Lex Fridman (1:16:23.400)
And I think, so I think that's why people respond.
Lex Fridman (1:16:25.900)
It's just too radical.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:16:27.360)
It can't fit into their cognitive framework that they have been brought up on, that they've
Lex Fridman (1:16:32.080)
been educated on, that just their whole life revolves around.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:16:35.360)
Michael, you don't bring up Ayn Rand that much in conversation, except as kind of references
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:16:40.480)
every once in a while as part of the humor of just the general flow in the music of the
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:16:44.400)
way you like to talk.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:16:45.920)
Well, why do you think you don't integrate her into your philosophy when you're like
Lex Fridman (1:16:52.000)
explaining ideas and all those kinds of things?
Lex Fridman (1:16:54.320)
Like, why is she not, you know, a popular reference point for discussion of ideas?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:17:01.440)
Because I, I don't know if Yaron's going to agree with or can agree with me.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:17:05.400)
I think for a certain percentage of the population, actually I talked to someone from the Ayn
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:17:09.280)
Rand Institute, I forgot his name, older guy with glasses and he didn't disagree with me.
Lex Fridman (1:17:12.720)
He said, this is changing.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:17:13.720)
He said, I think for a certain percentage of the population who are uninformed about
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:17:17.720)
her work, higher than 10%, less than 50%, you mentioned Ayn Rand, they have been trained
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:17:23.160)
to think this is identical Scientology.
Lex Fridman (1:17:25.640)
So as soon as her name comes up, it's like, okay, I'm out the door.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:17:28.560)
I'm not going to have anything to do with this.
Lex Fridman (1:17:30.440)
And everyone who follows her is a crazy person.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:17:32.080)
That's one thing that has happened.
Lex Fridman (1:17:33.960)
Another thing is Rand in her personality was very aggressive and antagonistic.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:17:40.240)
She was for a long time, the lone voice in the wilderness being like, this isn't like
Lex Fridman (1:17:45.080)
one of her big adversaries in a certain sense is Milton Friedman.
Lex Fridman (1:17:50.040)
And she really hated how Milton Friedman was like, oh, you know, having rent control is
Lex Fridman (1:17:55.760)
inefficient.
Lex Fridman (1:17:56.760)
And she's like, inefficient?
Lex Fridman (1:17:58.340)
We're talking about mass homelessness and people dying.
Lex Fridman (1:18:02.400)
And you're talking about this, like what color tie goes with this color shirt?
Lex Fridman (1:18:06.760)
Are you insane?
Lex Fridman (1:18:07.760)
And in fact, it's hilarious.
Lex Fridman (1:18:09.840)
There was an organization called the Foundation for Economic Education fee.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:18:12.800)
Leonard Reed was the head of this.
Lex Fridman (1:18:15.680)
And there were a series of letters and she was helping him.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:18:18.960)
She was much more philosophically grounded in certain contexts than he was.
Lex Fridman (1:18:22.600)
And there was an essay, a pamphlet that he published called Roofs or Ceilings.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:18:27.440)
It was cowritten by Milton Friedman, later Nobel prize winner and George Stigler, also
Lex Fridman (1:18:32.200)
later Nobel prize winner.
Lex Fridman (1:18:33.880)
And basically the argument was, well, if the government controls all housing, how's that
Lex Fridman (1:18:39.080)
going to work out?
Lex Fridman (1:18:40.280)
And she's sitting there and she's typing in all caps.
Lex Fridman (1:18:43.840)
So you know, she's holding on the shift key and doing this on a typewriter and being like
Lex Fridman (1:18:49.160)
how?
Lex Fridman (1:18:50.160)
And you can imagine her with her cigarette holder, apoplectic, being like, how is an
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:18:55.760)
organization ostensibly devoted to free enterprise discussing this Stalinist idea in the most
Lex Fridman (1:19:04.880)
casual of terms?
Lex Fridman (1:19:06.160)
She's like, have I taught you not?
Lex Fridman (1:19:07.300)
And what's amazing is, so at Fee, they only have her letters because she sent them to
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:19:13.000)
Reed.
Lex Fridman (1:19:14.000)
The Ayn Rand Institute must have Leonard Reed's letters.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:19:16.280)
I was able to, knowing Rand enough, predict exactly what the conversation would go like
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:19:21.160)
because he also did something she didn't approve of, which is he asked other people for feedback
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:19:26.300)
on her work.
Lex Fridman (1:19:27.300)
And she goes, I gave this to you to read.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:19:29.640)
Who are you shopping around to some jerk that I don't, I need their approval.
Lex Fridman (1:19:33.120)
What are you doing?
Lex Fridman (1:19:34.120)
So it was a very interesting situation, but so that's one issue.
Lex Fridman (1:19:38.200)
I remember this is Ayn Rand when she's young.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:19:40.480)
She wasn't that young.
Lex Fridman (1:19:41.480)
It was in the 40s.
Lex Fridman (1:19:42.480)
She's relatively young, right?
Lex Fridman (1:19:43.480)
Yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:19:44.480)
It's before Atlas Shrugged.
Lex Fridman (1:19:45.480)
It was before Atlas Shrugged.
Lex Fridman (1:19:46.480)
So it's before she's super famous.
Lex Fridman (1:19:47.480)
And before this is, the found has been published, but you know, she's trying to work with others
Lex Fridman (1:19:55.200)
and they are disappointing her left and right.
Lex Fridman (1:19:57.200)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:19:58.200)
And also when you are a, what she takes away from bad people is you have these kids, right?
Lex Fridman (1:20:06.720)
And you're going to sit down with them and they're going to be like, yeah, I'm going
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:20:09.160)
to take your guns.
Lex Fridman (1:20:10.240)
I'm going to lock you in your house.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:20:12.760)
I'm going to take 60% of your income and all this other stuff.
Lex Fridman (1:20:16.600)
And they might, up to reading Rand, they might sit down and have a discussion.
Lex Fridman (1:20:21.040)
And Rand goes, Hey, you know what?
Lex Fridman (1:20:23.400)
You didn't have to give them an answer.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:20:25.240)
You could say, go to hell.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:20:27.100)
We're not having this conversation and you have no right to one second of my life.
Lex Fridman (1:20:32.840)
And this is not a legitimate opener.
Lex Fridman (1:20:35.480)
This is a declaration of war.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:20:36.820)
This isn't like, it's not like if I sit down with you, I run like, Hey, Ron, here are my
Lex Fridman (1:20:40.040)
plans for your wife.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:20:41.040)
Go to hell.
Lex Fridman (1:20:42.040)
Yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:20:43.040)
This isn't a conversation we're having.
Lex Fridman (1:20:44.040)
Oh, I'm going to make you unsafe in your house.
Lex Fridman (1:20:45.400)
What?
Lex Fridman (1:20:46.400)
This is not a discussion.
Lex Fridman (1:20:47.400)
So what happens is these people who five minutes ago were able to have a debate with this kid
Lex Fridman (1:20:52.000)
because people read Rand when they're young often.
Lex Fridman (1:20:54.260)
And now that kid is like, yeah, I'm not even talking to you.
Lex Fridman (1:20:57.120)
It's her fault.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:20:58.360)
Whereas in reality, it's that person's fault because that person had no right, although
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:21:03.260)
they've been trained to the contrary of our culture to believe, yeah, I'm going to sit
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:21:06.860)
down and we're just going to equally have a discussion over your own life.
Lex Fridman (1:21:11.020)
And you have one vote and I have one vote and we're going to know Lex has a vote and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:21:14.080)
that's just how it's going to be and Rand's not having it.
Lex Fridman (1:21:18.020)
So I think those are two issues.
Lex Fridman (1:21:19.760)
And there's some other things which, which I don't need to get into.
Lex Fridman (1:21:22.240)
But I, I, because one of the things that Rand said consisting of her life is that her philosophy
Lex Fridman (1:21:27.840)
is an integrated whole, right?
Lex Fridman (1:21:29.980)
So to be an objectivist isn't just like, I like Atlas shrugged.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:21:33.720)
It means I accept objectivism as a totality.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:21:37.160)
Since I do not, I don't, I think it is proper to be respectful to her wishes and not constantly
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:21:43.560)
be, especially given that I've somewhat of a platform to be like Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:21:46.440)
Ayn Rand, because I don't think Ayn Rand would have liked it if I was talking about Ayn Rand
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:21:50.360)
this much.
Lex Fridman (1:21:51.360)
So how do you, how do you deprogram?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:21:54.300)
Because I don't like to bring up Ayn Rand just because I do see what, like how people
Lex Fridman (1:21:58.540)
roll their eyes essentially.
Lex Fridman (1:22:00.000)
So how do you, what's the upside, exactly.
Lex Fridman (1:22:03.280)
But what is that pro, can we, can you speak to that programming that people have?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:22:08.520)
I mean, look, at the end of the day, if you talk about the ideas and the ideas make sense
Lex Fridman (1:22:12.500)
and people are attracted to the ideas, then you say, oh, by the way, and this came from
Lex Fridman (1:22:15.680)
Ayn Rand, that's how you deprogram them, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:22:18.560)
If you make the ideas prevalent in the culture, if people start viewing self interest as something
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:22:23.160)
that's kind of, that's interesting and worthwhile and something worth investigating, and they
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:22:27.800)
said, oh, that came from Ayn Rand, then I think, I think then we'll, we'll deprogram
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:22:32.940)
them and get them and get them changing their minds about these things.
Lex Fridman (1:22:36.340)
And also, you know, going on shows where people are going to watch your show no matter who
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:22:40.960)
you bring on.
Lex Fridman (1:22:41.960)
Right.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:22:42.960)
So, uh, even though now you do, you, if you put, you put Ayn Rand in the title that immediately
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:22:48.440)
reduces the number of people who watch, so, so in the future you shouldn't, but, uh, you
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:22:52.360)
put Michael Malice in the title and then at least the, the female population, the female
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:22:56.200)
to, you know, absolutely, just to see, but so, so you go and you try to make them as
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:23:01.000)
credible as possible to as many people as possible over time.
Lex Fridman (1:23:04.240)
It takes time.
Lex Fridman (1:23:05.240)
And ultimately, I don't think the culture will have this response to her.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:23:08.420)
They might still disagree with her, but I think over time, and already you're seeing
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:23:12.000)
it, younger people, I think today are far less, there was a generation who never read
Lex Fridman (1:23:16.360)
Ayn Rand and was like this, bring out the garlic and the crosses.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:23:19.920)
We don't want to have anything to do with it then.
Lex Fridman (1:23:22.040)
And I think today there are many more people who've read her and might disagree or not
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:23:25.600)
disagree.
Lex Fridman (1:23:26.600)
Right.
Lex Fridman (1:23:27.600)
And then there were a lot of people who haven't read her, but who are not opposed to it or
Lex Fridman (1:23:30.040)
willing to have an, to engage.
Lex Fridman (1:23:32.160)
So I think it's changing already.
Lex Fridman (1:23:34.000)
And I think in 20 years it'll be completely different.
Lex Fridman (1:23:35.560)
And just two more things that she does that I think it says that I think people find very,
Lex Fridman (1:23:38.920)
very off putting given our culture.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:23:41.020)
One is she will, basically you could sit down with Rand and be like, your fear is not in
Lex Fridman (1:23:46.340)
any way a hold on my freedom.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:23:48.680)
Just that one sentence.
Lex Fridman (1:23:50.000)
And for a lot of people that's very off putting and very harsh, it's correct.
Lex Fridman (1:23:55.760)
But for them, it's just like, wait a minute, I'm still scared.
Lex Fridman (1:23:59.040)
It's like, I don't care.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:24:00.040)
Like for example, like with lockdowns and things like this, it's like, well, I'm scared
Lex Fridman (1:24:04.160)
and maybe I have a right to be scared.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:24:05.760)
Or like, I'm scared that you have a gun in your house.
Lex Fridman (1:24:08.340)
And it's like, I respect that you're scared.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:24:10.520)
I don't care.
Lex Fridman (1:24:11.520)
At the end, as you say at the end of the day, this is my house.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:24:13.920)
I'm going to live my life as I please, as long as I don't hurt other people.
Lex Fridman (1:24:17.440)
Well, you are hurting me because I'm scared.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:24:19.160)
No, that's not.
Lex Fridman (1:24:20.360)
This is the feeling versus fact.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:24:21.920)
Yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:24:22.920)
So that is one situation.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:24:23.920)
This is like a feeling versus freedom, essentially.
Lex Fridman (1:24:26.200)
Yes, where Rand is, that puts a lot of people off.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:24:30.680)
I also think that historically, a lot of people who were drawn to her are drawn to her for
Lex Fridman (1:24:36.880)
the wrong reasons.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:24:38.520)
That a lot of times, like Howard Rourke, the hero, we're gonna still say hero.
Lex Fridman (1:24:43.840)
You're supposed to say protagonist, but hero.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:24:45.520)
The hero of the fountainhead, he's extremely intelligent, but he's also extremely uncompromising.
Lex Fridman (1:24:51.720)
What often ends up happening is you'll have a young kid who is somewhat intelligent, but
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:24:55.960)
then they pick up the personality and now you're someone I can't work with.
Lex Fridman (1:24:59.600)
And then it's like, you're not Howard Rourke, relax.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:25:01.740)
You're not that skilled.
Lex Fridman (1:25:02.740)
You're not that talented.
Lex Fridman (1:25:03.740)
But because the character has to do personification and have certain aspects together, when kids
Lex Fridman (1:25:08.880)
read that, they might get the wrong idea.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:25:10.560)
That's not Rand's fault.
Lex Fridman (1:25:11.560)
And it's more than that.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:25:12.680)
It's so, I completely agree with that, but it's even broader than that.
Lex Fridman (1:25:18.600)
So here is, in my view, one of the geniuses of the millennium presenting a philosophy.
Lex Fridman (1:25:24.400)
And she's got not just the questions, in my view, she's got the answers.
Lex Fridman (1:25:27.120)
And you're reading them at 16 and you're reading the answers.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:25:30.600)
You don't know at 16 that this is true.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:25:34.240)
You might have a sense that it's true, but you don't have the life experience, the learned
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:25:37.560)
experience.
Lex Fridman (1:25:38.560)
You don't have the facts, you don't have the knowledge.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:25:40.360)
You're picking up truth.
Lex Fridman (1:25:41.640)
It's just being absorbed.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:25:43.400)
You're accepting it as true, but you don't know it's true.
Lex Fridman (1:25:46.180)
And then you go out into the world advocating for it, which we all did, or at least I did,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:25:51.280)
when I was 16.
Lex Fridman (1:25:52.560)
And you're obnoxious.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:25:54.020)
You can't prove what you're arguing for because you don't have the experience.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:25:58.040)
It took me, I don't know, 10, 20 years, probably 20, to figure out that I really do think what
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:26:03.780)
she said was true, but I didn't know when I was 16.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:26:07.000)
When I was 16, I just absorbed these ideas and accepted them, in a sense, with some connection
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:26:13.960)
to reality, but in a sense, on faith, at least presented it that way.
Lex Fridman (1:26:20.560)
And as a consequence, you come off as a detached from reality, obnoxious human being.
Lex Fridman (1:26:26.280)
And I think a lot of young objectivists are, and it's hard not to be, because you are.
Lex Fridman (1:26:30.680)
You're confronted with genius.
Lex Fridman (1:26:32.320)
And you're not a genius.
Lex Fridman (1:26:33.320)
I certainly am not a genius.
Lex Fridman (1:26:34.640)
And I'm confronted with just genius and have all this information in my head now.
Lex Fridman (1:26:38.480)
I can't articulate it.
Lex Fridman (1:26:41.880)
And it's hard to deal with yourself.
Lex Fridman (1:26:42.880)
What?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:26:43.880)
There's an inside joke.
Lex Fridman (1:26:44.880)
No, you said I'm confronted with genius.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:26:45.880)
I pointed to us.
Lex Fridman (1:26:46.880)
Yes.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:26:47.880)
I mean, I'm confronted with you guys.
Lex Fridman (1:26:48.880)
I'm at an age where I know how to deal with geniuses.
Lex Fridman (1:26:52.160)
But there's something else.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:26:53.600)
This is not why people don't like her, but there's something that the Fountainhead does,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:26:56.560)
which I think is very, and I don't blame her, but it's a bad consequence.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:27:01.940)
If you read the Fountainhead and you're young and you're intelligent and talented, the message
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:27:05.640)
at least I got, and I know I'm not alone, is you are going to think that you're going
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:27:09.400)
to be a pariah, that a lot of people are going to be against you, and you're basically doomed
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:27:14.440)
for a short period of being isolated and alone.
Lex Fridman (1:27:17.960)
And that may have been the case when Fountainhead was written.
Lex Fridman (1:27:20.640)
But I think now with the internet, and in my experience, both as a youth and someone
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:27:24.480)
who's a little bit older, I didn't appreciate, and you're not going to get it from that book,
Lex Fridman (1:27:28.280)
and you can't get it through that book because it has to have a certain narrative, how many
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:27:31.540)
people who are a little older are giddy when they find young talent, how inspiring it is,
Lex Fridman (1:27:38.800)
how exciting it is.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:27:39.800)
Like when you talk to these kids who are doing things on the internet or writing or whatever
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:27:43.240)
achievement, you want them to flourish.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:27:45.960)
You're not threatened by them as the antagonists of the Fountainhead are, and that doesn't
Lex Fridman (1:27:50.260)
come through in the Fountainhead because it depends on your profession, right?
Lex Fridman (1:27:53.360)
I mean, some of these parts of the world are better than others.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:27:56.640)
If you're an artist, at least the way I conceive of art, and you want to go study art today,
Lex Fridman (1:28:02.880)
you're going to be pouped and look down on and so on.
Lex Fridman (1:28:06.680)
So yeah, I agree.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:28:07.680)
I mean, in my generation, when I read Iron Man, there was no internet, and I was in Israel,
Lex Fridman (1:28:13.500)
so we were isolated, and there was nobody else who had shared their ideas, and you did
Lex Fridman (1:28:17.860)
feel that kind of isolation.
Lex Fridman (1:28:19.960)
But Roark gave you, to me, he didn't teach me about you're going to be isolated because
Lex Fridman (1:28:26.120)
partially because I wasn't, maybe I was humble, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:28:36.480)
When I read Atlas Shrugged, I identified with Eddie Willis.
Lex Fridman (1:28:40.480)
When I read the Fountainhead, I didn't identify with Howard Roark.
Lex Fridman (1:28:43.960)
How old were you when you read the Fountainhead?
Lex Fridman (1:28:46.200)
So I read Atlas when I was 16.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:28:47.480)
I probably read the Fountainhead when I was 16 and a half, 17, something like that.
Lex Fridman (1:28:52.000)
That is unfathomable crime.
Lex Fridman (1:28:53.000)
You read the Fountainhead after Atlas Shrugged?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:28:55.280)
If anyone listening to this, if you read the Fountainhead after Atlas Shrugged, that is
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:29:00.700)
a war crime.
Lex Fridman (1:29:01.700)
No, for me, reading Atlas Shrugged was much more important.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:29:05.440)
It is more important, but my point is, I think the Fountainhead in many ways is redundant
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:29:10.240)
in certain aspects if you read Atlas Shrugged first, and because the Fountainhead is such
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:29:13.920)
a masterful book and such a personal book.
Lex Fridman (1:29:17.440)
I agree with that.
Lex Fridman (1:29:18.440)
So ideally, you would read the Fountainhead.
Lex Fridman (1:29:19.440)
That's what I'm saying, yes.
Lex Fridman (1:29:20.440)
And here's the other thing people don't appreciate, I'm sorry to interrupt you.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:29:24.020)
People think Rand's always about politics, politics, politics, politics, but the Fountainhead
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:29:27.600)
is not a political book at all.
Lex Fridman (1:29:29.000)
It's about, well, she talks about politics in Mansoul, sure.
Lex Fridman (1:29:32.040)
But it's about ethics, how important everyone has to have a moral code.
Lex Fridman (1:29:36.200)
That's the other thing why people find Rand off putting.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:29:38.460)
If you have young people who now find it very important to live a moral life, who are like,
Lex Fridman (1:29:44.760)
what does that mean to have morality, to have ethics, to live with integrity for people
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:29:50.400)
who have gotten a little older, who have made these little sacrifices, who are like, I'm
Lex Fridman (1:29:55.440)
not going to fight at work.
Lex Fridman (1:29:56.800)
Do I really need to look for another job?
Lex Fridman (1:29:58.560)
Yeah, my wife's kind of getting annoying, but am I going to make a fight about it?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:30:02.800)
These little sacrifices that they make every day.
Lex Fridman (1:30:05.720)
And big ones.
Lex Fridman (1:30:06.720)
And big ones, absolutely.
Lex Fridman (1:30:08.020)
So when you have someone who's forcing you to look in the mirror and say, those little
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:30:14.840)
sacrifices and big sacrifices you made, you did the wrong thing and you're evading that you betrayed your unconscious.
Lex Fridman (1:30:22.120)
That to many people, I think, is very threatening.
Lex Fridman (1:30:24.480)
But this is why so many people say that Ayn Rand is for 14 year old boys.
Lex Fridman (1:30:29.840)
Yeah, right.
Lex Fridman (1:30:30.840)
Right?
Lex Fridman (1:30:31.840)
You grow out of it.
Lex Fridman (1:30:32.840)
And there's a reason why it appeals to 14 as a little young, but 16, 18.
Lex Fridman (1:30:37.680)
It's because those are the ages where we're still open to idealism.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:30:41.320)
In a positive sense, to beautiful things, to ideals, to seeking perfection, to seeking
Lex Fridman (1:30:49.160)
a great life.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:30:50.200)
I think as you grow older, most people become cynical.
Lex Fridman (1:30:53.080)
They give up on their ideals.
Lex Fridman (1:30:54.080)
Why?
Lex Fridman (1:30:55.080)
Because their ideals were wrong and their ideals failed.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:30:57.480)
My parents were socialists when they were young.
Lex Fridman (1:30:59.720)
Those ideas failed.
Lex Fridman (1:31:00.720)
So where do you go from socialism if your ideals fail?
Lex Fridman (1:31:02.480)
Cynicism.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:31:03.480)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:31:04.480)
Which is horrible.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:31:05.480)
All adults, almost all adults out there are cynical.
Lex Fridman (1:31:08.060)
And that is failed idealism.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:31:10.600)
When they look at the young people, they see their idealism, oh, well, I was idealistic
Lex Fridman (1:31:15.440)
too.
Lex Fridman (1:31:16.440)
And they don't question the idea, well, they're good ideals and they're bad ideals, they're
Lex Fridman (1:31:19.360)
right ideals and they're wrong ideals.
Lex Fridman (1:31:22.320)
And that's why they attribute it to youth.
Lex Fridman (1:31:24.740)
So it's a threat to a lot of people, a lot of people who it's too late for.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:31:28.960)
For some people, it's too late to change their minds.
Lex Fridman (1:31:31.660)
And they know it.
Lex Fridman (1:31:33.520)
And they're too invested in the job, in the wife, in the compromises.
Lex Fridman (1:31:38.840)
In the comfort.
Lex Fridman (1:31:39.840)
And they're too invested in the comfort.
Lex Fridman (1:31:42.840)
Too invested in a compromise, too invested in a comfort.
Lex Fridman (1:31:45.400)
And they know that they shouldn't be.
Lex Fridman (1:31:47.480)
They know they should change.
Lex Fridman (1:31:49.040)
And these young people are challenging that.
Lex Fridman (1:31:51.120)
And that is really, really scary for them.
Lex Fridman (1:31:53.600)
And that's why they reject it without too much consideration.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:31:57.720)
One of the things Rand, the working title for Fountainhead was Secondhand Lives.
Lex Fridman (1:32:01.480)
And Rand had two definitions of selfishness in that book.
Lex Fridman (1:32:04.480)
One is selfishness in the sense of my life is the most important thing.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:32:08.200)
It's not the only important thing.
Lex Fridman (1:32:09.760)
My family would be number two friends.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:32:11.520)
They certainly are extremely high values, but you can't have these secondary values
Lex Fridman (1:32:15.480)
without the first value.
Lex Fridman (1:32:16.480)
But in the context of my life, right?
Lex Fridman (1:32:17.760)
Because your family might not be a value, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:32:20.040)
You might hate your parents.
Lex Fridman (1:32:21.040)
Sure.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:32:22.040)
The point being selfishness.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:32:23.520)
Then there's the other kind of selfishness, which is Peter Keating, one of the villains
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:32:26.760)
of the book, which is he's selfish in that he's greedy.
Lex Fridman (1:32:30.400)
He's looking out for number one, but he has no values.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:32:33.040)
He has no sense of character.
Lex Fridman (1:32:34.380)
He just wants to be wealthy.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:32:36.660)
He wants to have a beautiful wife.
Lex Fridman (1:32:38.360)
He wants to have a big house.
Lex Fridman (1:32:39.640)
Why?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:32:40.640)
He couldn't tell you because other people have it and he wants to have it more than
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:32:43.120)
them.
Lex Fridman (1:32:44.120)
His sense of reference is other people.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:32:45.920)
He's living secondhand.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:32:47.560)
The problem with that is a lot of young people read Rand and when they start arguing online,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:32:53.080)
they just start trying to talk like Rand.
Lex Fridman (1:32:55.200)
Whereas Rand would be like, be original, be an innovator.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:32:58.080)
If you want to argue for objectivism in Rand's views, take her ideas, articulate them in
Lex Fridman (1:33:02.640)
your own way.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:33:03.640)
That's a good way of showing that you understand what she thinks, but what they end up doing
Lex Fridman (1:33:08.160)
is just talking like her.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:33:09.720)
It sounds dated and comical and that's going to be off putting because it's like Rand wouldn't
Lex Fridman (1:33:14.080)
expect someone else to sound like Rand.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:33:16.400)
She's her own person.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:33:18.480)
She of course wouldn't view Keating as selfish in any sense because, or even greedy, greed
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:33:23.920)
is a tricky word.
Lex Fridman (1:33:24.920)
Well, he was selfish in the old school sense.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:33:27.240)
Yeah, he's selfish in the old, but even there, it's not as if he has some passion and he's
Lex Fridman (1:33:33.400)
going after passion no matter what, I'm going to light, cheat, steal.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:33:39.080)
His passion is painting and he doesn't pursue his passion.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:33:42.320)
He pursues what his mother wants him to pursue and he pursues money and he's completely second
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:33:48.520)
handed in the sense that he follows other people's values, not his own.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:33:51.680)
Can we actually just backtrack and can we define some of these ideas that Ayn Rand
Lex Fridman (1:33:56.160)
is known for of selfishness, selfishness, egoism, egotism, greed?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:34:01.000)
Those all, basically all of those words are seen as negative in society and Ayn Rand has
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:34:07.600)
been reclaiming in her work those words.
Lex Fridman (1:34:10.600)
So can you speak to what they mean?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:34:13.200)
I think she's trying to, and Yaron might disagree, I think she's trying to be needlessly provocative
Lex Fridman (1:34:20.280)
and it's off putting and on one hand, maybe you want to be a provocateur because that
Lex Fridman (1:34:25.000)
gives you people like, what does this woman mean?
Lex Fridman (1:34:27.480)
On the other hand, many people are going to be viscerally put off.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:34:30.800)
When Ayn Rand was on Donahue in 1979, he asked her explicitly, define to me the virtue of
Lex Fridman (1:34:37.120)
selfishness, which is the title of her collection of essays as well.
Lex Fridman (1:34:40.600)
And she, this is Rand, immediately says, use a different word, self esteem.
Lex Fridman (1:34:45.240)
And it's like, yeah, it's like, why are you championing this word, which has extremely
Lex Fridman (1:34:49.880)
negative connotations?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:34:51.680)
Whereas if you just say, and this is thanks to her and her work, my life matters, my values
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:34:58.540)
matter, I'm not going to apologize for that.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:35:01.840)
That is a lot less off putting than this caricature of Rand, which is I'm for, when people hear
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:35:07.560)
I'm for selfishness, they hear, oh, someone's bleeding out in the corner, but I want to
Lex Fridman (1:35:11.200)
get a Coke.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:35:12.200)
That's nice.
Lex Fridman (1:35:13.200)
She condemned that.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:35:14.200)
She says, I'm against this kind of sociopathy.
Lex Fridman (1:35:15.880)
That's absolutely crazy.
Lex Fridman (1:35:17.160)
But that word selfishness.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:35:18.160)
If it goes a mistake to be provocative in this one dimension, to go and to stick with
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:35:24.640)
it.
Lex Fridman (1:35:25.640)
I mean, she's stuck with this idea of selfishness and so on.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:35:27.120)
She's stuck with this term and it's, I often use terms for provocative effect.
Lex Fridman (1:35:31.840)
Yes, this is true.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:35:32.840)
You're a master, you're a scholar of the trolling arts.
Lex Fridman (1:35:36.200)
Thank you, sir.
Lex Fridman (1:35:37.200)
But I think this is one example where the costs outweigh the benefits.
Lex Fridman (1:35:42.240)
And go ahead, Yaron.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:35:43.240)
Yes, I'm open to that idea, but I don't think that's right.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:35:48.200)
When you actually dig deeper into what people object to, they're not objecting to the word.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:35:55.880)
They're objecting to the ideas.
Lex Fridman (1:35:58.760)
And she addresses this explicitly in The Virtue of Selfishness in the, I think, the introduction.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:36:03.360)
Wait, hold on.
Lex Fridman (1:36:04.360)
I got to ask for clarification.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:36:05.640)
You're saying they're objecting to the ideas, but when they talk about her, they're not
Lex Fridman (1:36:08.880)
talking about her actual ideas.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:36:09.880)
They're talking about the caricature.
Lex Fridman (1:36:10.880)
Well, sure.
Lex Fridman (1:36:11.880)
But the caricature is a defense mechanism not to have to deal with the ideas, right?
Lex Fridman (1:36:17.720)
So they create the caricature in order to ignore the ideas and some of them do it consciously.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:36:23.640)
Like when people like Krugman and others do this, they know exactly what they're doing.
Lex Fridman (1:36:28.360)
But Krugman is Ellsworth Tewi.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:36:30.400)
Yes, he's the perfect Ellsworth Tewi.
Lex Fridman (1:36:33.760)
And he knows Ayn Rand.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:36:35.300)
He's read Ayn Rand.
Lex Fridman (1:36:36.840)
And he knows she's the enemy in some sense.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:36:38.800)
He knows...
Lex Fridman (1:36:39.800)
Check out our episode with Krugman.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:36:42.440)
I think it's number 90.
Lex Fridman (1:36:43.440)
It was a great conversation.
Lex Fridman (1:36:44.440)
Didn't get as many views as me, but what are you going to do?
Lex Fridman (1:36:46.960)
Well, he got a Nobel Prize, so what you got?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:36:50.800)
I've got a ticket to heaven.
Lex Fridman (1:36:52.320)
Sorry, Paul.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:36:53.320)
Yasser Alford has a Nobel Prize.
Lex Fridman (1:36:55.920)
And Hitler was a Times Man of the Year for a few times.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:37:00.880)
That really bothers me when people bring that up.
Lex Fridman (1:37:02.480)
Are you really...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:37:03.480)
Yeah, Time of the Year...
Lex Fridman (1:37:04.480)
It's called a joke, Michael.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:37:05.480)
It's not good.
Lex Fridman (1:37:06.480)
Is it?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:37:07.480)
Man of the Year is not representative of good.
Lex Fridman (1:37:09.120)
It represents the most influential person of that year, and Hitler was.
Lex Fridman (1:37:13.000)
Wait, what were you upset about?
Lex Fridman (1:37:14.840)
When people like, well, look at Time Magazine.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:37:16.640)
They called Hitler Man of the Year.
Lex Fridman (1:37:17.800)
They were on set.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:37:18.800)
They were on set.
Lex Fridman (1:37:19.800)
They were on set.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:37:20.800)
This guy's awesome.
Lex Fridman (1:37:21.800)
They said this is the guy who moved the world the most.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:37:22.800)
It's not like he was Stalin.
Lex Fridman (1:37:23.800)
I don't go out there.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:37:24.800)
Now, that's who they like.
Lex Fridman (1:37:25.800)
Hitler's terrible.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:37:26.800)
The Stalin guy.
Lex Fridman (1:37:27.800)
Oh, no, no.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:37:28.800)
I'm not even joking.
Lex Fridman (1:37:29.800)
The attitude of people between Nazism and fascism and communism is stunning.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:37:39.880)
In my upcoming book, I have all the receipts how the things that they were saying about
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:37:43.700)
Stalin at the time are, if you look back, it's unconscionable, and these people have
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:37:49.280)
had no accountability in the positive direction.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:37:51.680)
That's not even at the time, and we need to get back to the selfishness stuff, but it's
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:37:55.520)
not even at the time.
Lex Fridman (1:37:57.240)
I think I've told this story.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:37:59.880)
I was in the green room going on John Stossel's show, and I saw a bunch of libertarians in
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:38:06.480)
the green room all hanging out, and this guy walks in, this young guy walks in, and somebody
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:38:10.720)
says to me, he's a communist.
Lex Fridman (1:38:13.320)
I said, what do you mean?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:38:15.160)
They said, no, no, he's a card carrying member of the Communist Party.
Lex Fridman (1:38:19.520)
He's a communist.
Lex Fridman (1:38:20.520)
I said, and that's okay with you guys?
Lex Fridman (1:38:23.480)
They go, yeah, yeah, he's a nice guy.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:38:26.640)
I'm like, no, this is not acceptable.
Lex Fridman (1:38:28.680)
Hold on.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:38:29.680)
Let me quote Rand.
Lex Fridman (1:38:30.680)
Rand said she would rather talk to a philosophical Marxist, right?
Lex Fridman (1:38:34.640)
Did she not say this?
Lex Fridman (1:38:35.640)
Yeah, but this is a communist in the context of 21st century, right?
Lex Fridman (1:38:41.200)
So I said...
Lex Fridman (1:38:42.200)
But not 20th.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:38:43.200)
Well, in the sense that we know exactly what, we know exactly.
Lex Fridman (1:38:46.840)
Yeah, yeah, that's...
Lex Fridman (1:38:47.840)
And this guy has the blood of 100 million people on his hands.
Lex Fridman (1:38:50.840)
I'm not letting him off the hook.
Lex Fridman (1:38:52.480)
So I engage with this guy, and literally we get into this... I'm telling him what I think
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:38:58.800)
of his ideas, and therefore what I think of him, and the people from the wardrobe department
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:39:03.800)
come out, and their chairs are put aside in this little gladiator ring.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:39:07.560)
It's like the libertarians are sitting there amused, because to them it's just... I'm
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:39:12.960)
not going to name names, but to them it's just like, yeah, he's a communist, and I said
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:39:17.240)
at some point to them... I won't name names, because... I said at some point to them,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:39:23.840)
if somebody walks into a room and says, I'm a Nazi, do you just treat him as, okay, let's
Lex Fridman (1:39:29.600)
go hang out and get some drinks?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:39:30.600)
I do.
Lex Fridman (1:39:31.600)
I don't.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:39:32.600)
I do.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:39:33.600)
Because I wrote a book about this, the new write, and I did talk to Nazis, and I went
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:39:34.720)
to North Korea to talk to them.
Lex Fridman (1:39:35.720)
Yeah, because you were writing a book.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:39:36.720)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:39:37.720)
Right?
Lex Fridman (1:39:38.720)
But you're not going to hang out with a Nazi or a communist just like the regular person,
Lex Fridman (1:39:41.760)
right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:39:42.760)
To me, a Nazi and a communist are the same.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:39:43.760)
I don't under... Okay, please explain this, because first of all, any time you have a
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:39:47.160)
lot of equivocation, I hate that, because I don't like equality.
Lex Fridman (1:39:49.960)
I think it's a bad concept.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:39:50.960)
Sure.
Lex Fridman (1:39:51.960)
We're all sitting here as Jewish people, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:39:53.600)
We're from the Soviet Union.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:39:56.240)
To say these two things are basically the same, it's a matter of life and death for
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:39:59.600)
all of us.
Lex Fridman (1:40:00.600)
We'd be dead under Hitler.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:40:01.840)
We're not doing so hot under Stalin, but we're still alive.
Lex Fridman (1:40:04.200)
Sure.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:40:05.200)
There's some very big difference.
Lex Fridman (1:40:07.200)
Sure.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:40:08.200)
One more thing.
Lex Fridman (1:40:09.200)
So within the context, they're different, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:40:10.200)
Hold on, one more thing.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:40:11.200)
There's also one very big difference in that one has a lot worse of a brand name, and the
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:40:15.080)
other does not, even though the other should.
Lex Fridman (1:40:17.320)
It's a brand.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:40:18.320)
Yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:40:19.320)
Yeah, so I agree.
Lex Fridman (1:40:20.320)
So there's a context in which I would fear Stalin more than Hitler.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:40:23.080)
There's a different context in which I would fear Hitler, but as ideologies, they are equally
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:40:29.560)
evil.
Lex Fridman (1:40:30.560)
Wait, wait, but...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:40:31.560)
Not the same, because the difference is between communism and fascism, but as ideologies,
Lex Fridman (1:40:36.140)
they're equally evil.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:40:37.140)
They both view the individual as insignificant, unimportant, and they both basically want
Lex Fridman (1:40:41.160)
to kill any independent minded...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:40:42.640)
Well, you're equating communism with Stalinism, so you're equating...
Lex Fridman (1:40:45.640)
No, I'm equating communism... I don't know what Stalinism is.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:40:49.240)
I don't care.
Lex Fridman (1:40:50.240)
Stalinism is one version of communism, I'm sure there are others.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:40:53.840)
Communism is an evil ideology, no matter who practices it.
Lex Fridman (1:40:57.240)
I don't think that's... I think that's too loose, because here's one example.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:41:02.720)
The first person who went to the Soviet Union from the left and denounced it was Emma Goldman.
Lex Fridman (1:41:10.000)
She was an anarcho communist, right?
Lex Fridman (1:41:11.960)
So she went there, she got deported from the United States.
Lex Fridman (1:41:14.520)
She went to Lenin to his face.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:41:16.080)
Hold on, let me finish.
Lex Fridman (1:41:17.560)
You're already dismissing what I'm saying.
Lex Fridman (1:41:19.520)
Me?
Lex Fridman (1:41:20.520)
No.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:41:21.520)
Your body language, your emotions.
Lex Fridman (1:41:22.520)
No.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:41:23.520)
Humility, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:41:24.520)
Humility.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:41:25.520)
History doesn't carry your feelings either.
Lex Fridman (1:41:26.520)
She goes to Lenin, she goes, we're supposed to be about free speech.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:41:29.720)
We're supposed to be about the individual freedom.
Lex Fridman (1:41:31.440)
What are you doing?
Lex Fridman (1:41:32.440)
And he goes, free speech is a bourgeois extravagance.
Lex Fridman (1:41:34.600)
You can't have it during a revolution, too bad.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:41:37.180)
She comes back to the West.
Lex Fridman (1:41:38.680)
Wait, he's right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:41:39.680)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:41:40.680)
Oh no, yeah, of course.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:41:41.680)
She's more consistent with the idea.
Lex Fridman (1:41:42.680)
Yeah, he's more consistent.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:41:43.680)
She's a compromise.
Lex Fridman (1:41:44.680)
Yeah, you're right.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:41:45.680)
Well, she comes back to the West, the big red Emma, the big hero of the left.
Lex Fridman (1:41:50.760)
And she goes, you guys, this is a complete, not, she didn't say bad.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:41:55.160)
She was very random.
Lex Fridman (1:41:56.160)
She goes, this is pure evil.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:41:57.780)
This is horrifying.
Lex Fridman (1:41:59.000)
What they're doing to the workers, which you supposedly care about, completely oppressing.
Lex Fridman (1:42:03.000)
And when one person described, they go, when she got up to talk, it was a standing ovation.
Lex Fridman (1:42:08.000)
And when she was finished, you could hear a pin drop because she wasn't some capitalist.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:42:12.860)
She wasn't some bourgeois conservative.
Lex Fridman (1:42:15.760)
She was as hard left for violent revolution as it gets.
Lex Fridman (1:42:19.360)
And so I don't think she, as a communist, is an evil person.
Lex Fridman (1:42:22.880)
I think she is.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:42:24.520)
Because if she wasn't evading, and with Rand, and I think in reality, the essence of evil
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:42:32.240)
is evasion, is ignoring the facts of reality, is putting your feelings ahead of your facts.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:42:37.660)
She would realize that what was going on in the Soviet Union was the inevitable consequence
Lex Fridman (1:42:42.360)
of her ideas.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:42:43.360)
That could be just she's dumb.
Lex Fridman (1:42:44.360)
So she could have changed her mind.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:42:46.420)
She could have, coming back to the Soviet Union, said, these ideas are wrong.
Lex Fridman (1:42:50.240)
I now repudiate my ideas, not just of implementation, but my ideas.
Lex Fridman (1:42:54.880)
And then I would have said, yeah, she had been mistaken before, and now she's confronted
Lex Fridman (1:42:58.440)
reality.
Lex Fridman (1:42:59.440)
But if she stayed a leftist, if she stayed a leftist to that extent, not just a mild leftist,
Lex Fridman (1:43:04.840)
then I think she's dishonest and therefore immoral.
Lex Fridman (1:43:07.480)
So –
Lex Fridman (1:43:08.480)
But you're using three words identically.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:43:09.480)
You're saying dishonest, immoral, and evil.
Lex Fridman (1:43:10.880)
And I'm –
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:43:11.880)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:43:12.880)
So evil is more – is an extreme form of immorality, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:43:15.960)
Sure.
Lex Fridman (1:43:16.960)
Of course.
Lex Fridman (1:43:17.960)
So okay.
Lex Fridman (1:43:18.960)
So she's immoral.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:43:19.960)
The ideology she holds is still evil because the ideology –
Lex Fridman (1:43:20.960)
Maybe she's delusional.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:43:21.960)
She might be delusional.
Lex Fridman (1:43:22.960)
But delusional and evil are the same.
Lex Fridman (1:43:23.960)
But she can be delusional.
Lex Fridman (1:43:24.960)
She cannot be delusional.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:43:26.360)
See, I'm willing to accept a delusion before she's gone to the Soviet Union and seen it.
Lex Fridman (1:43:32.360)
Once she's gone to see it, I don't think that excuse holds anymore.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:43:36.880)
I think now she's being confronted and she's lying to herself about the implications of
Lex Fridman (1:43:41.120)
it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:43:42.120)
Logically, it's inevitable that what happens in the Soviet Union has to happen in any communist
Lex Fridman (1:43:47.560)
context.
Lex Fridman (1:43:48.560)
So to play a little bit of a devil's advocate here, is it logically inevitable?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:43:54.000)
Is it – can you imagine that there is communist systems where the consequences we've seen
Lex Fridman (1:43:58.440)
in the 20th century are not the consequences we get?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:44:02.520)
In future societies, under different conditions, under different – with the internet, different
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:44:07.760)
communication schemes, different set of resources.
Lex Fridman (1:44:09.760)
As long as human beings are what we are.
Lex Fridman (1:44:11.760)
Now the Borg – you remember the Borg from Star Trek or whatever the series was?
Lex Fridman (1:44:15.840)
Okay, nerd.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:44:16.840)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:44:17.840)
I mean –
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:44:18.840)
Okay, okay.
Lex Fridman (1:44:19.840)
No.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:44:20.840)
I'm a nerd.
Lex Fridman (1:44:21.840)
Okay.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:44:22.840)
The Borg –
Lex Fridman (1:44:23.840)
It's the highest of compliments.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:44:25.280)
The Borg –
Lex Fridman (1:44:26.280)
In this household.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:44:27.280)
The Borg is the highest of lex.
Lex Fridman (1:44:28.280)
Now we're talking.
Lex Fridman (1:44:29.280)
The Borg is communist, right?
Lex Fridman (1:44:32.180)
The Borg is a different species.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:44:34.360)
It has a different biology.
Lex Fridman (1:44:35.560)
It has a business – different form of consciousness.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:44:38.800)
Now whether such a being could survive evolution is a question.
Lex Fridman (1:44:43.280)
Whether such a –
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:44:44.280)
People are ants.
Lex Fridman (1:44:45.280)
They don't have to be intelligent.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:44:46.280)
Yeah, but then the question is can you have free will, human cognitive cognition and be
Lex Fridman (1:44:50.680)
a Borg?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:44:51.680)
I don't think so.
Lex Fridman (1:44:52.680)
But maybe.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:44:53.680)
Sure.
Lex Fridman (1:44:54.680)
Maybe in another planet.
Lex Fridman (1:44:55.680)
But human beings –
Lex Fridman (1:44:56.680)
You've got to take DMT to meet the Borg.
Lex Fridman (1:44:57.680)
So human beings – no, communism is anti – the reason communism is evil is it's
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:45:04.000)
anti reality, anti human nature, anti the individual, and therefore it is inherently
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:45:09.520)
evil.
Lex Fridman (1:45:10.520)
It cannot result in anything good coming out of it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:45:13.360)
Only bad can come of it.
Lex Fridman (1:45:14.360)
Do you think you could have predicted that before the 20th century?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:45:16.920)
Yes, and plenty of people did.
Lex Fridman (1:45:18.320)
It's not –
Lex Fridman (1:45:19.320)
You know who did?
Lex Fridman (1:45:20.320)
Mikhail Bakunin.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:45:21.320)
Mikhail Bakunin, who was an early communist Marxist rival in 18 – this is going to be
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:45:25.800)
in my upcoming book – in 1860, he sat down and wrote an essay, he goes, what Marx is
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:45:31.160)
advocating is insane.
Lex Fridman (1:45:33.200)
This is going to be worse than the czar.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:45:35.120)
You're talking about complete totalitarian nightmare.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:45:38.140)
When you put this into practice, it's going to be something we've never seen before.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:45:41.600)
It's a pure horror.
Lex Fridman (1:45:42.600)
Like, he was a hardcore leftist.
Lex Fridman (1:45:43.880)
Look, Marx predicted it, right?
Lex Fridman (1:45:45.360)
We talked about this.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:45:46.360)
Yeah, that's true too.
Lex Fridman (1:45:47.360)
Yeah, yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:45:48.360)
Marx at some point says certain people cannot be part of the proletariat and they have to
Lex Fridman (1:45:50.840)
be liquidated.
Lex Fridman (1:45:51.920)
So this idea of mass murder and mass killing is not new to communism, it is an inherent
Lex Fridman (1:45:56.640)
part of what it means.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:45:58.240)
You're either proletarian or you're not.
Lex Fridman (1:46:00.840)
And you're – look, and in Marx, it's in Marx, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:46:04.260)
The individual doesn't matter.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:46:06.280)
Now he might matter in his utopia because he knows he's got a marketing problem.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:46:09.760)
See, Marx has a marketing problem because of the fact that you have individuals.
Lex Fridman (1:46:13.560)
How do you convince individuals to give up their individualism, to give up the individuality?
Lex Fridman (1:46:17.720)
What you say is, well, we have to go through this difficult process.
Lex Fridman (1:46:20.640)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:46:21.640)
We have to get to this utopia.
Lex Fridman (1:46:22.680)
And in this utopia, I mean, he's very Christian.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:46:25.960)
I mean, this is the other thing about Marx.
Lex Fridman (1:46:27.360)
About the end time.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:46:28.360)
Marx is very Christian in everything, in his morality, in his collectivism, and in the
Lex Fridman (1:46:32.240)
end time.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:46:33.240)
The end times for Marx is going back to the Garden of Eden.
Lex Fridman (1:46:36.480)
The end time for Marx is you don't have to do anything.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:46:40.840)
Food is just available.
Lex Fridman (1:46:43.040)
Wealth is just available.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:46:44.560)
You can do your hobbies.
Lex Fridman (1:46:46.280)
You can do everything.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:46:47.280)
You can do whatever you want, whatever feelings, whatever.
Lex Fridman (1:46:49.280)
So it's going back to a Garden of Eden perspective on human.
Lex Fridman (1:46:53.400)
So he knows what that is going to require.
Lex Fridman (1:46:55.400)
It's going to require this dictatorship of the proletarian to get there.
Lex Fridman (1:46:58.520)
And he never tells you how we get there.
Lex Fridman (1:47:00.680)
There's no game plan.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:47:01.680)
There's a dictatorship, then there's utopia.
Lex Fridman (1:47:05.000)
It's like the underpants.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:47:06.000)
Step one, dictatorship.
Lex Fridman (1:47:07.000)
Step two, question mark.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:47:08.000)
Step three, utopia.
Lex Fridman (1:47:09.000)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:47:10.000)
And the question mark is where the action is, right?
Lex Fridman (1:47:11.560)
Annihilate.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:47:12.560)
Yeah, you yada yada the important part.
Lex Fridman (1:47:15.320)
And people buy this garbage, right?
Lex Fridman (1:47:17.520)
So there's nothing of value in Marx.
Lex Fridman (1:47:20.720)
I mean, let me be very clear.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:47:22.040)
There's nothing.
Lex Fridman (1:47:23.040)
He gets capitalism wrong.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:47:24.740)
He gets the proletarian wrong.
Lex Fridman (1:47:26.560)
He gets the workers wrong.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:47:27.780)
He gets the labor theory of value is wrong.
Lex Fridman (1:47:31.560)
There is nothing of value.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:47:33.320)
There's nothing of value in communism.
Lex Fridman (1:47:35.200)
It is a wrong, unfitted to human nature ideology from beginning to end.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:47:41.200)
The clarity with which you speak is just not something I, I don't think I have that clarity
Lex Fridman (1:47:45.380)
about anything.
Lex Fridman (1:47:46.380)
But I mean, it has to do with that thing that where everybody has something to teach you.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:47:50.200)
I just feel like I've been reading Mein Kampf recently, for example, for the first time.
Lex Fridman (1:47:54.760)
Something to learn from Hitler?
Lex Fridman (1:47:55.760)
Well, there's a lot to learn from Hitler.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:47:57.860)
About the nature of evil, about wrong ideas, not about anything good, not about anything
Lex Fridman (1:48:01.760)
positive.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:48:02.760)
Oh, so yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:48:03.760)
So that's probably a really bad example.
Lex Fridman (1:48:05.280)
Why is Hitler different than Marx?
Lex Fridman (1:48:07.720)
That's a very good question.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:48:08.720)
No, I get that.
Lex Fridman (1:48:09.720)
But in terms of ideas, why is Hitler different than Marx?
Lex Fridman (1:48:11.640)
Why do we have to assume there's something to learn from Marx, but there's nothing, but
Lex Fridman (1:48:16.360)
we acknowledge that there's nothing positive to learn from Hitler.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:48:19.480)
Because I mean, all right.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:48:20.480)
I can tell you something, in the sense that like, there's an interesting question is,
Lex Fridman (1:48:23.960)
how did this person get from step A to being able to implement the ideas?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:48:28.160)
I know, everybody should read, anybody who's interested should read Marx, because it's
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:48:32.680)
really important.
Lex Fridman (1:48:33.680)
It's important in the history and a lot of people were influenced by it.
Lex Fridman (1:48:36.460)
Why was it influential?
Lex Fridman (1:48:37.660)
What is it that he says that appeals to people?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:48:40.320)
I find it interesting to see all the parallels with Christianity.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:48:42.880)
I think that's why to a large extent it appeals to people because they got to give up the
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:48:46.960)
unimportant part of religion and got to keep the fun parts of religion, the important parts
Lex Fridman (1:48:51.520)
to them of religion, the morality, for example.
Lex Fridman (1:48:54.440)
But no, there's not something positive to learn from everybody.
Lex Fridman (1:48:58.720)
In Ayn Rand's view, in your view, who was worse, Stalin or Hitler?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:49:04.440)
I think worse is, this is something that I'll do a Randian sin and be evasive.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:49:12.600)
It really drives me crazy when people sit down and have these competitions about like,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:49:18.880)
if someone who's Jewish brings up the Holocaust and someone who's African American brings
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:49:21.960)
up slavery, and this is a conversation that I think is pointless and very hurtful and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:49:27.280)
harmful and it is really silly and ridiculous.
Lex Fridman (1:49:31.280)
So it might make sense in some kind of stoner context about like you're doing the math and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:49:35.040)
trying to figure out, but it's like, and yeah, you could be like, what would you rather have
Lex Fridman (1:49:39.100)
like this kind of cancer or full blown AIDS?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:49:41.360)
In short, I mean, there's gotta be life expectancy, but these are such, I'll evade your question,
Lex Fridman (1:49:48.200)
reframe it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:49:49.280)
I think we understand, and a lot of this is a function of the propaganda at the time,
Lex Fridman (1:49:54.960)
and I'm not using the word propaganda in a negative sense, the horrors of Hitler and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:49:58.800)
Nazism.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:50:00.160)
I think, and one of the things I'm trying to solve with my upcoming book, there is a
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:50:04.480)
very poor understanding about the horrors of Stalinism and what that meant in practice.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:50:11.720)
One of the reasons I wrote Dear Reader, my North Korea book, and what I was shocked and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:50:16.620)
delighted by when I started writing Dear Reader, I thought to myself, look, I have very little
Lex Fridman (1:50:22.440)
capacity to affect change, but I can tell stories.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:50:26.560)
I can write books.
Lex Fridman (1:50:27.560)
This is my competency.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:50:29.400)
If I move the needle in America, we got it pretty good here.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:50:33.080)
If I move the needle in North Korea, this could have really profound positive consequences.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:50:37.880)
I set a very limited goal, and that goal is to change the conversation about North Korea,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:50:43.120)
to stop it being regarded as a laughing stock and start regarding it as an existential horror.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:50:51.120)
The metaphor I use always, and we brought up earlier, was the Joker, because people
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:50:54.880)
look at Kim Jong Un, Kim Jong Il, his father, they look at a clown disguised as a buffoon,
Lex Fridman (1:50:59.160)
and that's valid, and I said, this is what I can do.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:51:02.900)
I can move that camera a little bit, and now that camera, instead of looking at Kim Jong
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:51:06.960)
Un, Kim Jong Il, you see behind him literally millions of corpses, and when you see people
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:51:12.900)
putting on these performances in these shows, look at these fools, then you're like, everyone
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:51:17.360)
those people, their kid has a gun to their head right now.
Lex Fridman (1:51:20.760)
If someone puts a gun to your kid's head, you're going to put on clown makeup?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:51:23.400)
Yeah, you are.
Lex Fridman (1:51:24.460)
What color?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:51:25.460)
Put on the shoes, whatever you want.
Lex Fridman (1:51:27.640)
So in terms of, people do not appreciate the horrors of Stalinism.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:51:34.680)
I think this is a big fault of the right wing.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:51:37.400)
You can't expect necessarily the New York Times to do this because of the blood on their
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:51:40.680)
hands, and for a long time, I was berating conservatives, I go, this was the big right
Lex Fridman (1:51:45.920)
wing victory, bloodless largely, the victory of the Soviet Union.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:51:49.880)
No one's talking about it, no one's informing, and let's be clear, there are very many people
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:51:54.760)
who are Democrats who are on the left, who are violently opposed, literally violently
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:51:58.420)
opposed to the Soviet Union, it's horrors, this is not necessarily a partisan issue.
Lex Fridman (1:52:03.720)
And I'm like, all right, I'm going to do something about it.
Lex Fridman (1:52:05.680)
So I know that's not really literally your question, but you know, that's kind of information
Lex Fridman (1:52:10.520)
that feeds us.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:52:11.520)
Let me ask you that question if it's okay.
Lex Fridman (1:52:13.560)
So what, which do we, can we learn more from, from a historical perspective looking forward?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:52:20.880)
From like, which has more lessons in, in how to avoid it, how to, and just general lessons
Lex Fridman (1:52:27.920)
about human nature.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:52:28.920)
Well, I mean, I agree with Michael that it's not important who's more evil because they're
Lex Fridman (1:52:34.360)
both evil and they're both just so evil that the differences don't matter.
Lex Fridman (1:52:39.880)
What matters is what is the ideology?
Lex Fridman (1:52:44.560)
What is the, what is, what are the consequences?
Lex Fridman (1:52:47.640)
What do we understand from it?
Lex Fridman (1:52:49.200)
What are we worried about?
Lex Fridman (1:52:51.000)
What are we going to avoid?
Lex Fridman (1:52:52.520)
So I'm not worried about Nazism qua Nazism because everybody hates Nazism.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:52:57.440)
I mean, it's uniform that that's out.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:53:01.320)
Even the people I think on the far right in America are staying away from the cliches
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:53:06.340)
of Nazism, although some of them are stupid enough not to.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:53:08.600)
But, but in the end, if, if, if the United States goes authoritarian right, it's not
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:53:13.600)
going to be Nazism.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:53:14.600)
It'd be some other form of fascism because that is so obviously, you know, being understood
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:53:21.840)
as evil and bad that there's almost no understanding that the evil of communism, I mean, you brought
Lex Fridman (1:53:28.160)
it up earlier, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:53:30.840)
Almost nobody understands that communism is an evil ideology, that there's, that there's
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:53:34.840)
nothing worthwhile there, that any, any attempt to go in that direction in any sustainable
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:53:41.260)
way is destructive.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:53:42.960)
They are, as you mentioned, they're economists out there claiming they are communists.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:53:46.480)
I mean, I find that despicable that anybody would claim to be a communist economist or
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:53:51.960)
communist anything, because I think that's, it's a, it's a, it's a ideology that has
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:53:57.680)
no basis, but we haven't learned that.
Lex Fridman (1:54:00.120)
So to me, communism is the much bigger threat because we still think it's some kind of beautiful
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:54:06.280)
ideal in, in the world around us.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:54:11.000)
I think Nazism is out, but I think, I think fascism is a, is a massive threat out there
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:54:14.960)
because I don't think we've learned real lessons of, nobody knows what fascism is.
Lex Fridman (1:54:19.920)
Everybody thinks fascism is Nazism.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:54:21.440)
They don't, they don't recognize that in a sense we are already fascist and that we're
Lex Fridman (1:54:25.480)
certainly heading in that direction.
Lex Fridman (1:54:27.400)
So they don't know what it is.
Lex Fridman (1:54:28.440)
And again, we haven't studied, and the real lesson here is we haven't studied what unifies
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:54:33.040)
them both because there's not a big difference between fascism and communism.
Lex Fridman (1:54:37.240)
There's no big difference between Nazism and communism.
Lex Fridman (1:54:39.000)
What does unify them?
Lex Fridman (1:54:40.440)
What unifies them is the common good, the public interest.
Lex Fridman (1:54:45.440)
What unifies them is this idea that there is some elite group of people who can run
Lex Fridman (1:54:50.280)
our lives for us, for the common good, for the public interest.
Lex Fridman (1:54:54.480)
And that you don't matter.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:54:55.480)
You as an individual, you individual don't matter and they, they will dictate how you
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:55:01.400)
live.
Lex Fridman (1:55:02.400)
And you know, so these are philosopher kings.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:55:03.400)
It goes back to Plato's philosophy, but it really unifies it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:55:07.160)
Think about communism, communism is about the sacrifice of the individual to the proletarian.
Lex Fridman (1:55:11.720)
Who is the proletarian?
Lex Fridman (1:55:13.200)
It's this collective group here.
Lex Fridman (1:55:15.600)
Who represents a proletarian?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:55:17.440)
Well they have, somebody has to, somebody has to tell the proletarian what they believe
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:55:20.360)
in because they don't know, because there is no collective consciousness.
Lex Fridman (1:55:23.600)
So you need a Stalin and this is the point about Marxism.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:55:27.760)
Marxism needs a dictator because somebody has to represent the values, the public interest,
Lex Fridman (1:55:36.120)
what's good for the public.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:55:38.160)
Nazism needs the same thing.
Lex Fridman (1:55:39.200)
Just Nazism replace proletarian with Aryans, the Aryan race.
Lex Fridman (1:55:43.400)
And you have exactly the same thing.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:55:44.620)
You need a dictator to tell us what's good for the Aryan people so we can do what's good
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:55:48.360)
for the Aryan people.
Lex Fridman (1:55:49.360)
So it's impossible to have a communist system or a fascist system without a dictator naturally
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:55:53.840)
emerging.
Lex Fridman (1:55:54.840)
It's not, it's not possible to have a George.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:55:56.400)
It's not naturally, it's ideologically.
Lex Fridman (1:55:57.720)
It's absolutely impossible to have that on scale.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:56:00.400)
You can certainly have communes where people behave communistically.
Lex Fridman (1:56:04.520)
Because it's not inside the ideology.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:56:06.200)
Hold on.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:56:07.200)
Let me talk about fascism because fascism definitionally is going to have a strong man.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:56:11.120)
I don't even know how it could be fascism without that.
Lex Fridman (1:56:14.240)
And let's talk, what you said earlier on is about how people don't know what fascism is.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:56:18.720)
Fascists don't know what fascism is.
Lex Fridman (1:56:20.300)
So there's a superb book by John Diggins from the early seventies called Mussolini and Fascism,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:56:25.320)
the view from America.
Lex Fridman (1:56:26.580)
So I find Mussolini to be a far more interesting figure than Hitler because he had a much more
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:56:31.120)
nuanced career.
Lex Fridman (1:56:32.440)
He was much more of an innovator.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:56:34.160)
He was an intellectual.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:56:35.160)
Which is shocking because he always comes across as a buffoon, but he was actually a
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:56:39.100)
thinker.
Lex Fridman (1:56:40.100)
Why did he not resist Hitler at all?
Lex Fridman (1:56:43.720)
So one of the things with fascism is it comes, it's a direct line from Kant to Mussolini.
Lex Fridman (1:56:51.000)
So basically there is a philosopher who I adore, who I'm sure you don't, called Schopenhauer.
Lex Fridman (1:56:56.600)
And Schopenhauer, the question became, Rand was not a particularly humorous person.
Lex Fridman (1:57:02.920)
She had some moments of wit.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:57:04.480)
There's a great moment when she was on Tom Snyder show in 1980, I believe, and she's
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:57:09.420)
talking about Kant and she goes, Immanuel Kant and all his illegitimate children, if
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:57:14.720)
you catch my meaning, she mean all his bastards.
Lex Fridman (1:57:17.480)
But the host Tom Snyder did not pick up on it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:57:19.440)
If you watch it on YouTube, you could pick up on it.
Lex Fridman (1:57:21.560)
And what happened was once Kant bifurcated reality into the phenomenal world, the pure
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:57:26.520)
idea world and the numeral world, the question became, well, what is the nature of this world
Lex Fridman (1:57:32.540)
of ideas?
Lex Fridman (1:57:33.640)
And Hegel had it meant reason.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:57:35.240)
I don't know even know what that means theoretically, that the world of reason is idea and this
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:57:39.840)
is Schopenhauer who hated Hegel, who constantly attacked him by name and Hegel's followers
Lex Fridman (1:57:45.680)
in his work.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:57:46.880)
He was a very big innovator in a malevolent way because he said the nature of reality,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:57:52.160)
this idea is will, meaning the universe doesn't care about you and it's constantly in this
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:57:58.520)
reality putting urges in your mind, values.
Lex Fridman (1:58:02.720)
And when you denounce these values and urges, that's the basis of morality.
Lex Fridman (1:58:06.520)
And from there it went to Nietzsche and the will isn't mindless, it is a will to power.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:58:12.960)
Mussolini took this and basically said, because the will to power is the real reality, the
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:58:19.480)
Kantian idea, therefore all of this is secondary.
Lex Fridman (1:58:23.320)
So if we will it, we can make it happen.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:58:26.880)
When you have this concept of my willpower is stronger than reality and you're like,
Lex Fridman (1:58:32.920)
okay, how's this program going to work?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:58:34.880)
We can make it happen.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:58:36.480)
That was why fascism is not a very coherent ideology because explicitly, there's a book
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:58:42.320)
called from 1936 called The Philosophy of Fascism, which tried to codify this, 36, this
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:58:46.520)
is a long time ago, where they're like, we're against reason and explicitly rationality.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:58:53.020)
We are for willpower, for strength, and if you are strong enough and united enough, you
Lex Fridman (1:58:59.080)
can force these things to work.
Lex Fridman (1:59:02.400)
So there's a lot that is not taught about this ideology.
Lex Fridman (1:59:06.840)
I highly recommend people read the books from the time.
Lex Fridman (1:59:10.200)
And what was fascinating about Mussolini is he was regarded as the moderate.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:59:15.160)
Because the 1930s, you had the Great Depression, all the intellectuals said, this proves capitalism
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:59:21.040)
can't work, the Great Depression, obviously, air quotes, is capitalism's fault.
Lex Fridman (1:59:25.640)
Then you have the alternative, the USSR.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:59:27.400)
Well, that's not tenable for us.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:59:29.480)
Here comes Mussolini and Mussolini says, I'm going to take the best of both worlds.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:59:34.040)
I have aspects of markets, capitalism, but I don't have this chaos, but I also don't
Lex Fridman (1:59:38.720)
have complete government control of the bureaucrats.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:59:41.640)
I'm going to have this combination.
Lex Fridman (1:59:43.920)
And there was a Broadway song, You're the Top, you're Mussolini.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:59:47.360)
That was later edited out because that's when he took a bad turn.
Lex Fridman (1:59:50.720)
But this is kind of the fascist idea.
Lex Fridman (1:59:54.600)
And it's about power and it's about control.
Lex Fridman (1:59:57.440)
That's the essence.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (1:59:58.440)
It's about will.
Lex Fridman (1:59:59.440)
So they don't care.
Lex Fridman (20:00.840)
So do you think some things are more real than others?
Lex Fridman (20:03.320)
For example, money.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (20:04.320)
There's a bunch of things that seem real.
Lex Fridman (20:08.360)
This is not an Animal Farm reference.
Lex Fridman (20:09.640)
Is this going to be about love?
Lex Fridman (20:11.800)
There's nothing as real as love, right Lex?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (20:16.200)
Love is a fundamental part of the quantum mechanics, yes.
Lex Fridman (20:19.360)
No.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (20:20.360)
No.
Lex Fridman (20:21.360)
No.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (20:22.360)
There are some things that have become reality because we humans, in a collective sense,
Lex Fridman (20:27.400)
believe it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (20:28.520)
You can't believe something collectively.
Lex Fridman (20:30.320)
Now it doesn't become real.
Lex Fridman (20:31.960)
What does it mean to say something's real?
Lex Fridman (20:33.800)
That is, you can, so love, for example, love's a good example, right?
Lex Fridman (20:36.880)
Love is an abstraction, right?
Lex Fridman (20:38.640)
It's not something I can touch.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (20:40.280)
It's not something I can see, but it's certainly something you would feel.
Lex Fridman (20:42.960)
Not something you can hit.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (20:45.880)
We love differently.
Lex Fridman (20:46.880)
You and I.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (20:47.880)
I don't think that's true.
Lex Fridman (20:48.880)
I think I'm just too honest about it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (20:49.880)
You can't hit love.
Lex Fridman (20:50.880)
You can't, love is an abstraction.
Lex Fridman (20:53.160)
So is love real?
Lex Fridman (20:54.160)
Yes, it's real because I feel it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (20:56.460)
It's an existent, but it's not an existent in the same sense as this cup is.
Lex Fridman (21:00.440)
So abstractions are real, but at the end of the day, all abstractions have to be able
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (21:07.920)
to be reduced to actual concrete so you can either see it.
Lex Fridman (21:14.640)
I really don't like criticizing someone whose work I haven't read secondhand.
Lex Fridman (21:19.240)
So I want to take this away from speaking about him personally, because I'm not familiar
Lex Fridman (21:22.440)
with his work.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (21:23.440)
He is a nice guy.
Lex Fridman (21:24.440)
That makes me like him.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (21:25.440)
That makes him like him less.
Lex Fridman (21:26.440)
Now you're back talking about evolutionary fitness again.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (21:31.120)
I think there's disingenuousness when we talk about the word real in terms of ideas are
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (21:39.480)
real versus the cup is real, and you try to switch back between those two meanings, and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (21:45.480)
it's a little bit of linguistic wordplay that is trying to force a point that's not accurate,
Lex Fridman (21:51.240)
in my opinion.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (21:52.240)
Well, I think the issue is, and what he's challenging is, and what Kant is challenging
Lex Fridman (21:57.520)
is, do we know reality?
Lex Fridman (22:01.280)
And I think the answer is yes, we do.
Lex Fridman (22:03.320)
We know reality.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (22:04.320)
We observe it.
Lex Fridman (22:05.320)
Now, do we know everything about reality?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (22:07.680)
No.
Lex Fridman (22:08.680)
We can't, for example, sense what a bat senses as reality.
Lex Fridman (22:12.720)
A bat observes reality through, what is it?
Lex Fridman (22:16.000)
Sonar.
Lex Fridman (22:17.000)
Sound waves, right?
Lex Fridman (22:18.000)
Yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (22:19.000)
Through sonar.
Lex Fridman (22:20.000)
Right?
Lex Fridman (22:21.000)
So it has a different sense, but it's the same reality.
Lex Fridman (22:22.000)
It's still a table.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (22:23.000)
The bat's spatial relationship to the table is different than ours, but the object is
Lex Fridman (22:28.160)
still the same object.
Lex Fridman (22:29.160)
But how do you know that's true?
Lex Fridman (22:31.240)
Are you not just hoping that's true or assuming that's true?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (22:34.320)
That's what no means.
Lex Fridman (22:35.960)
No means I have identified an aspect of reality.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (22:39.720)
That's literally the definition of knowledge.
Lex Fridman (22:41.880)
Now if you say, how are you certain?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (22:43.600)
Well, that's a whole other question, but one of the reasons I know it was certain is because
Lex Fridman (22:47.880)
this happens.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (22:48.880)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (22:49.880)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (22:50.880)
And I know this is going to happen.
Lex Fridman (22:51.880)
And if I tell you, if you go downstairs, you're going to see, you know, Mr. Jones and you
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (22:55.500)
walk downstairs and I see Mr. Jones, at the very least, you know, something's going on
Lex Fridman (22:59.840)
there.
Lex Fridman (23:00.840)
So what about all the things that mess with our perception?
Lex Fridman (23:02.720)
For example, we've talked about psychedelics before.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (23:05.320)
Talked about in dreams where you'd be detached from this, I mean, there's certain things
Lex Fridman (23:10.640)
that happen to your brain to where you're not able to perceive.
Lex Fridman (23:12.920)
So you're not perceiving reality.
Lex Fridman (23:14.320)
That's right.
Lex Fridman (23:15.320)
So your brain is creating a different reality.
Lex Fridman (23:16.720)
It's not real.
Lex Fridman (23:17.720)
How do you know it's not real?
Lex Fridman (23:19.200)
How do you know the elves will meet in the...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (23:21.880)
Because partially because I need to take a drug in order to do it, because I'm asleep
Lex Fridman (23:26.920)
when I'm dreaming.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (23:28.560)
It's not reality.
Lex Fridman (23:29.560)
That is clearly a creation of our mind.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (23:33.560)
It's not a creed.
Lex Fridman (23:34.560)
Hold on.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (23:35.560)
Let's get to the psychedelics.
Lex Fridman (23:36.560)
The drug is real.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (23:37.560)
I think you're going to be thinking I'm joking a lot more than I am this episode.
Lex Fridman (23:42.240)
I'm going to be the humorist objectivist.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (23:43.960)
He could be the court jester.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (23:47.820)
In terms of psychedelic, when people are perceiving these elves, these machine elves, these other
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (23:51.880)
entities, whether they could either be real or not, I don't know.
Lex Fridman (23:57.200)
But the point is that doesn't go to his broader point because if these beings exist and the
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (24:02.880)
only way to perceive them is to take a drug, they still exist.
Lex Fridman (24:06.720)
This is just...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (24:07.720)
For example, if I'm walking outside in the woods at night and there's a deer and I can't
Lex Fridman (24:14.640)
see it, but if I put on night vision goggles, I can see it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (24:17.740)
That deer was there the entire time.
Lex Fridman (24:19.600)
It's not that the night vision goggles caused the deer to appear.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (24:22.780)
You can recreate it not only using night vision goggles, but you can then use sonar.
Lex Fridman (24:28.160)
You can use other mechanisms by which to prove that the deer is there.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (24:31.840)
The thing with psychedelics is that...I don't know because maybe I'm the least experienced
Lex Fridman (24:36.600)
with psychedelics here probably.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (24:38.640)
My guess is every time you take the psychedelic, you have exactly the same experience of the
Lex Fridman (24:41.480)
deer.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (24:42.480)
No.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (24:43.480)
Second, are there other mechanisms, other scientific mechanisms by which I can find
Lex Fridman (24:48.000)
the deer out there other than the psychedelics?
Lex Fridman (24:50.880)
We don't know yet.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (24:51.880)
So...
Lex Fridman (24:52.880)
Well, we don't know yet.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (24:53.880)
Well, but the...
Lex Fridman (24:54.880)
This is Occam's Razor, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (24:56.520)
The simplest explanation here is the most likely, and that is that you've taken something
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (25:02.340)
that's messing with the chemicals in the brain, something is being...that your brain can project.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (25:07.080)
We dream.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (25:08.080)
Nobody's arguing that the dream is real and reality is not, or if they are, I think they're
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (25:12.600)
nuts.
Lex Fridman (25:13.600)
The dream is a dream.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (25:15.360)
Your brain is creating an image of telling you a story.
Lex Fridman (25:20.680)
Psychedelics are simulating the same thing.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (25:22.160)
That's probably what's going on until there's evidence to the contrary.
Lex Fridman (25:25.240)
Well, hold on.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (25:26.240)
Let me disagree with you a little bit, because let's take Adderall, for example.
Lex Fridman (25:29.360)
No one here disagrees.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (25:30.360)
That's something much more simpler and less out of this world.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (25:34.520)
I think what he might be speaking to, I know Joe Rogan talks about this and other people
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (25:37.720)
in this space, is that when you take certain drugs, it changes your perception.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (25:41.080)
It doesn't have to be otherworldly, it changes your perception of what's around you.
Lex Fridman (25:44.040)
And as an example, what they talk about is, the three of us are talking, there's lots
Lex Fridman (25:47.400)
of other stuff in the room, we're only aware of it vaguely on a personal level.
Lex Fridman (25:50.960)
So it changes the...
Lex Fridman (25:51.960)
Hold on, let me finish.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (25:52.960)
No, I don't do that.
Lex Fridman (25:53.960)
I'm Israeli.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (25:54.960)
You're about to start.
Lex Fridman (25:55.960)
This is back to the desert island of murder.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (25:58.680)
No, but we just resolved it within three seconds.
Lex Fridman (26:00.800)
We did.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (26:01.800)
There's no conch.
Lex Fridman (26:02.800)
He's trying to get us to feed on the truth.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (26:05.800)
Yeah, it's not going to happen.
Lex Fridman (26:06.800)
Exactly.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (26:07.800)
I'm trying to create murder.
Lex Fridman (26:08.800)
No one has asthma.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (26:09.800)
It's going to be fine.
Lex Fridman (26:10.800)
Because if the two of you murder each other, there's more food for me.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (26:12.760)
There's no food.
Lex Fridman (26:13.760)
You're all...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (26:14.760)
Well, ratings would go up.
Lex Fridman (26:15.760)
You robots eat alcohol.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (26:16.760)
Ratings would go up.
Lex Fridman (26:17.760)
Viewership would go up.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (26:18.760)
Yeah, it's good for the ratings.
Lex Fridman (26:19.760)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (26:20.760)
But if you take, for example, Adderall or speed, right?
Lex Fridman (26:22.480)
People like you focus on things, you perceive things that aren't there.
Lex Fridman (26:25.680)
But that doesn't mean those things weren't there to begin with.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (26:27.800)
There are absolutely ways to change human perception chemically, through glasses, through
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (26:32.320)
getting drunk.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (26:33.760)
None of that changes the fact that the reality underneath it is real and is causing this
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (26:37.200)
effect.
Lex Fridman (26:38.200)
Absolutely.
Lex Fridman (26:39.200)
And it has a particular nature, right?
Lex Fridman (26:40.200)
And all it's doing is changing the focus, right?
Lex Fridman (26:43.160)
So if I take off my glasses, I'm seeing the same thing.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (26:45.400)
I'm just seeing something's out of focus and maybe in the distance, I can't see something.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (26:49.240)
It's just gone.
Lex Fridman (26:50.240)
And then I put it on.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (26:51.240)
There it is.
Lex Fridman (26:52.240)
That thing was always there.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (26:53.380)
It's just the sensitivity I have to it has changed.
Lex Fridman (26:57.640)
And it's absolutely not sensitive to everything equally.
Lex Fridman (27:00.720)
And drugs can change the relative sensitivities.
Lex Fridman (27:03.800)
It doesn't change reality.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (27:06.000)
It changes our ability to focus on reality.
Lex Fridman (27:09.600)
Let me give you one great example, the microscope.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (27:13.400)
I forget who it was.
Lex Fridman (27:14.400)
His name was with an L, the scientist who discovered it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (27:16.840)
He had a drop of water and he's seeing monsters, the protozoa in this drop of water.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (27:21.380)
For him, it must have been, it is like a drug experience, like, wait a minute, I'm drinking
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (27:24.880)
this.
Lex Fridman (27:25.880)
And there's alien beings whose shapes are completely crazy in this water.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (27:29.280)
Those beings were always there.
Lex Fridman (27:30.500)
Those beings were there before any of us were here.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (27:32.000)
They've been there for billions of years.
Lex Fridman (27:33.800)
But because he had this apparatus, now he's able to see protozoa.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (27:37.780)
No one's arguing protozoa are extradimensional, no one's arguing the supernatural, amoebas
Lex Fridman (27:41.920)
are well studied, paramecia, all the other lots.
Lex Fridman (27:44.360)
So if these elves, the machine elves are real, and the only way to perceive them is through
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (27:49.000)
DMT or something like that, that doesn't contradict the broader point that they've always been
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (27:53.800)
there and this is the mechanism for perceiving them.
Lex Fridman (27:56.360)
So here's the word I was looking for, it's the word actually Greg taught me this, so
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (27:59.920)
Greg Salamieri.
Lex Fridman (28:02.000)
So it's resolution, right?
Lex Fridman (28:03.940)
So it's resolution.
Lex Fridman (28:04.940)
My resolution changes with the glasses.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (28:06.680)
My resolution gets finer with the microscope.
Lex Fridman (28:09.600)
So there's probably some bacteria here on the table.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (28:11.920)
100%.
Lex Fridman (28:12.920)
Right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (28:13.920)
There's no doubt about it.
Lex Fridman (28:14.920)
I can't see them.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (28:15.920)
I can't use the microscope to not see them, but they're either there or they're not there.
Lex Fridman (28:19.880)
And I have the tools to discover whether they are there or they're not there.
Lex Fridman (28:24.120)
And that's called a microscope.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (28:26.000)
Now there could be even smaller beings that even with a microscope, I won't be able to
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (28:29.840)
define, but that's completely arbitrary to claim that, that they're there until I find
Lex Fridman (28:34.240)
a tool to be able to discover it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (28:36.040)
The same with what you see if you're seeing other beings when you're taking psychedelics.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (28:41.360)
Unless you find another tool to be able to see them with, the simplest assumption is
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (28:46.280)
probably the truest assumption.
Lex Fridman (28:47.840)
But even the not simplest assumption doesn't contradict the broader point.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (28:50.440)
No.
Lex Fridman (28:51.440)
Which is again, reality is what it is.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (28:52.440)
If it turns out that there are these creatures that you can only see with psychedelics, and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (28:56.160)
there are these creatures that you can only see with psychedelics, and our resolution
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (29:00.720)
while we're not on psychedelics is not fine enough to observe them.
Lex Fridman (29:04.500)
So what?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (29:05.500)
That doesn't change the fact that we evolved to survive in reality as it is.
Lex Fridman (29:10.960)
What do you do with the possibility that our resolution as it currently stands is really,
Lex Fridman (29:14.720)
really crappy?
Lex Fridman (29:15.960)
That basically.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (29:16.960)
Well, it's not.
Lex Fridman (29:17.960)
No, but you don't know that.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (29:19.520)
No, we know it.
Lex Fridman (29:20.520)
We know it completely.
Lex Fridman (29:21.520)
Compared to who?
Lex Fridman (29:22.520)
Exactly.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (29:23.520)
Compared to the future possibilities like artificial intelligence.
Lex Fridman (29:24.520)
It is true.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (29:25.520)
Hundreds of years.
Lex Fridman (29:26.520)
It is crappy compared to the future.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (29:27.520)
That's true.
Lex Fridman (29:28.520)
Fine.
Lex Fridman (29:29.520)
But that's not relevant.
Lex Fridman (29:30.520)
Much, much.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (29:31.520)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (29:32.520)
Or just the magnitude of crappy.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (29:33.520)
Of course.
Lex Fridman (29:34.520)
No, but here I'll use the standard that Hoffman uses, evolution, right?
Lex Fridman (29:35.520)
The reason I know that our resolution is phenomenal, it's phenomenally good, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (29:39.880)
Because look at us, we're sitting here comfortably in an apartment with air conditioning and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (29:46.540)
in warm Austin with microphones and we did all this stuff, we're really good at survival
Lex Fridman (29:53.080)
and changing the environment.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (29:54.480)
Indeed, if you look at the species that we know of, there's not a species that come anywhere
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (29:59.600)
close to our ability to deal with reality, to observe reality, to understand reality
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:00:01.560)
Fascists don't care who owns stuff, owns in quotes, because what's important is who controls
Lex Fridman (2:00:07.040)
it.
Lex Fridman (2:00:08.040)
So you can own your home, but if I get to tell you when you can sell it, for how much
Lex Fridman (2:00:11.760)
you can sell it and what you can do on that home, then I'm in control of it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:00:15.880)
That's the essence of fascism.
Lex Fridman (2:00:17.280)
And if you think about it, we live today in a much more fascist economic context than
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:00:22.400)
anything else.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:00:24.760)
We pretend that corporations are private, but when everything they do is regulated,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:00:29.400)
who they can hire, how much they pay them, when and how they can fire them, what they
Lex Fridman (2:00:34.960)
can do in their property, it's all control.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:00:38.800)
That's the way fascists start controlling everything.
Lex Fridman (2:00:43.280)
But it's not possible to have checks on power and balance of power at the top of fascism
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:00:47.320)
or communist systems.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:00:48.740)
The question was whether in fascist systems or communist systems, we're saying the dictator
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:00:56.400)
naturally or must emerge.
Lex Fridman (2:00:58.200)
I don't say emerge, the dictator is the one who makes the fascist system.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:01:02.200)
Yeah, fascism, well, it could emerge because for example, I think today in America we're
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:01:08.900)
moving much more towards fascism or socialism, and at some point that'll manifest itself
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:01:14.240)
in some kind of dictator.
Lex Fridman (2:01:15.760)
And the dictator might be different than a Mussolini or Nazis, it might be couched in
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:01:19.280)
some kind of pseudo constitutional American presence.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:01:23.280)
It would be a lot easier for a female to be a fascist dictator in America than a male,
Lex Fridman (2:01:28.320)
because do you have that softness?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:01:29.760)
She's not gonna come off as a strong woman, people won't see it coming, in my opinion.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:01:33.340)
I think it's gonna be a nationalist, religionist, environmentalist, I think somebody who can
Lex Fridman (2:01:41.120)
combine those three.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:01:42.120)
Well, Hitler did those, yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:01:43.120)
Yeah, exactly.
Lex Fridman (2:01:44.120)
And somebody who can combine those three and articulate the case for it, I think America
Lex Fridman (2:01:47.040)
is ready for it.
Lex Fridman (2:01:48.040)
So you think it's possible for fascism to arise in the world again?
Lex Fridman (2:01:50.760)
Oh, of course, it had never went away, they just adopt the name.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:01:54.920)
Because the fundamental ideas, the Kantian ideas, the ideas that are behind fascism never
Lex Fridman (2:02:00.480)
went away.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:02:01.480)
They're still as popular, if anything, more popular than they were back then, Marx is
Lex Fridman (2:02:05.560)
as popular.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:02:06.560)
I think these ideas are prevalent, they're out there, and absolutely, I think America
Lex Fridman (2:02:12.040)
is ready for them.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:02:13.040)
Again, it won't be quite in the form that we've experienced in the past, it'll be in
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:02:17.800)
a uniquely American form, couched at a flag, and of course, it was couched at a flag before.
Lex Fridman (2:02:22.800)
But no, yes, an authoritarian, some form of authoritarianism is necessary, because the
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:02:28.920)
fundamental principle behind both communism and fascism is the unimportance of the individual.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:02:35.800)
The individual is nothing, the individual is a nobody, and the importance of the collective.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:02:42.320)
The collective will, the collective soul, the collective consciousness, but the collective
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:02:46.560)
has no will, has no soul, has no consciousness.
Lex Fridman (2:02:49.320)
So somebody has to emerge to speak for the collective, otherwise, everything falls apart.
Lex Fridman (2:02:55.720)
So it's necessary, whether it's a committee or whether it's one person, how exactly, somebody
Lex Fridman (2:03:01.600)
has to speak for the collective.
Lex Fridman (2:03:03.960)
Even a committee doesn't function as a committee, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:03:06.820)
Most committees, particularly when the committee is about dictating how people should live,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:03:11.500)
somebody is going to, because now it becomes really, really important, somebody is going
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:03:14.560)
to dominate that committee and rule over it, because you don't want independent sources,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:03:18.880)
independent voices, because the individual doesn't matter, the individual doesn't count.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:03:22.320)
It's a natural hierarchical, so you have seven people that ostensibly have the same role,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:03:26.080)
someone is going to emerge as a leader naturally, and some people are going to follow.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:03:28.640)
Yeah, it's the same reason you cannot have the Richard Wolff type socialism of, and this
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:03:34.000)
is the more, if you will, innocent part of his ideas.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:03:37.560)
Oh, why can't we have corporations all be worker owned, and everybody votes on everything,
Lex Fridman (2:03:43.320)
and we vote on who should be CEO, and no, communism, fascism, most ideas necessitate
Lex Fridman (2:03:51.920)
ultimately authoritarians, and that's most of human history.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:03:55.880)
We forget again.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:03:57.260)
This idea of liberty, this idea of freedom, even the limited freedom we have today.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:04:01.520)
It's a recent invention.
Lex Fridman (2:04:02.520)
It's a recent invention.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:04:04.240)
It happens in little pockets throughout history.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:04:07.080)
We had a little bit of this democracy stuff, partial, only a few, some people got to vote
Lex Fridman (2:04:11.960)
and it wasn't rights respecting, because they didn't have the concept of rights in Athens,
Lex Fridman (2:04:15.480)
right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:04:16.480)
You had it in a few Greek cities.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:04:17.480)
We maybe had a version of it in Venice, we had a version of it in city states around
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:04:21.140)
the world, but then it was invented by the founding fathers in this country.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:04:25.960)
That's what makes the founding of America so important, and so different, and such a
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:04:29.680)
radical thing to have happened historically.
Lex Fridman (2:04:33.000)
Freedom is rare.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:04:34.600)
Authoritarianism is common.
Lex Fridman (2:04:35.600)
So I was looking at some statistics that 53% of people in the world live under authoritarian
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:04:41.680)
government.
Lex Fridman (2:04:42.680)
Only 53.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:04:43.680)
Oh, because India is democratic, so I guess they don't count India, but yes, it used to
Lex Fridman (2:04:49.480)
be 100.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:04:50.480)
Exactly.
Lex Fridman (2:04:51.480)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:04:52.480)
How do we change that?
Lex Fridman (2:04:53.480)
How do we change that?
Lex Fridman (2:04:54.480)
And even the authoritarianism in a country like China is a lot less than it used to be
Lex Fridman (2:04:59.840)
under Mao, right?
Lex Fridman (2:05:01.560)
So they were better off than they were under Mao.
Lex Fridman (2:05:05.280)
That's a reality.
Lex Fridman (2:05:06.280)
How do we change it?
Lex Fridman (2:05:08.200)
We have to declare, we have to change the ethical views of people.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:05:12.280)
This brings us back to selfishness, because as long as the standard of morality is the
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:05:18.600)
group, others, as long as the standard of value is what other people want, what other
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:05:23.740)
people think, as long as you are alive only to be sacrificed to the group, that's why
Lex Fridman (2:05:29.280)
you have to challenge Christianity.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:05:31.800)
As long as the Jesus on a cross dying for other people's sin is viewed as this noble,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:05:37.880)
wonderful act instead of one of the most unjust things to ever happen to anybody, as long
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:05:42.560)
as the common good and the public interest are the standards by which we evaluate things,
Lex Fridman (2:05:47.560)
we will always drift towards fascism, some form of authoritarianism.
Lex Fridman (2:05:52.080)
Can I answer your question?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:05:53.600)
I think there's something that has to go along with what Yaron was saying, and I know he's
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:05:57.160)
going to agree with me, which is technology.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:05:59.980)
Because if it becomes harder technologically for the authoritarian and more expensive for
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:06:04.720)
him to input or force his edicts, that is going to create a pocket of freedom regardless
Lex Fridman (2:06:10.480)
of what the masses think.
Lex Fridman (2:06:12.000)
And the masses, hold on let me finish, the masses as a rule are not going to be able
Lex Fridman (2:06:15.420)
to think in general anyway.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:06:17.320)
I have a much more elitist view of mankind than Rand does.
Lex Fridman (2:06:19.680)
And let me give you one specific example, which I mentioned in my book that you write.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:06:23.440)
Let's suppose it's 1990, not that long ago, we all remember 1990.
Lex Fridman (2:06:28.440)
And we're having an argument about censorship.
Lex Fridman (2:06:31.000)
And Yaron says, I want full freedom of the press, freedom of books, publish whatever
Lex Fridman (2:06:35.640)
you want, whatever, free speech.
Lex Fridman (2:06:37.640)
And I say, well, what about books like Mein Kampf?
Lex Fridman (2:06:40.320)
What about, you know, people read this the wrong idea?
Lex Fridman (2:06:42.320)
What about child pornography, things like this?
Lex Fridman (2:06:44.560)
Like, where are you going to draw the line?
Lex Fridman (2:06:45.800)
And we could argue along, Lex appears from the future, and he goes, hey, guys, this conversation
Lex Fridman (2:06:51.300)
is moot.
Lex Fridman (2:06:52.300)
And we're like, Lex, you look exactly the same.
Lex Fridman (2:06:54.320)
I'm like, yeah, of course, Robo Stone Age.
Lex Fridman (2:06:56.560)
And you go, I'm from the future.
Lex Fridman (2:06:58.680)
And I go, wait a minute, black president?
Lex Fridman (2:07:00.480)
And you go, look, this conversation is moot, because in a few years from now, you will
Lex Fridman (2:07:06.560)
be able to send any book anywhere on earth at the speed of light.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:07:11.720)
You can make infinite copies in one second.
Lex Fridman (2:07:15.880)
And you could send it to anyone such that they can only open this book if they know
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:07:19.880)
a magic word.
Lex Fridman (2:07:21.480)
And I go, well, how much is this going to cost?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:07:23.120)
Oh, it's free.
Lex Fridman (2:07:24.120)
And I go, wait, wait, you're telling me I can make infinite copies of any book and teleport
Lex Fridman (2:07:29.740)
them at the speed of light anywhere for free?
Lex Fridman (2:07:32.800)
And you would say, yes, we would think he's insane.
Lex Fridman (2:07:35.240)
But that's the status quo, right?
Lex Fridman (2:07:37.140)
So technology has done far more to fight government censorship of literature and ideas than has
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:07:44.240)
spreading the right ideas.
Lex Fridman (2:07:46.160)
So when you have things like crypto, which makes money less accessible than a gold block
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:07:50.440)
in your house, when you have things like people being able to travel quickly, those are also
Lex Fridman (2:07:55.560)
necessary compliments to having the right ideas.
Lex Fridman (2:07:59.520)
And Rand herself said that she couldn't have come up with her philosophy before the Industrial
Lex Fridman (2:08:03.920)
Revolution.
Lex Fridman (2:08:04.960)
So as time goes forward and we have more technology and we have more discourse.
Lex Fridman (2:08:09.880)
But for very different reasons, she said that, right?
Lex Fridman (2:08:12.280)
But it's also a lot easier to persuade people the right ideas.
Lex Fridman (2:08:16.320)
So I kind of agree.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:08:18.600)
Maybe I'm more pessimistic or maybe I don't get the technology completely.
Lex Fridman (2:08:22.920)
That's because you're a boomer.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:08:23.920)
There you go.
Lex Fridman (2:08:24.920)
Okay, boomer.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:08:25.920)
I get that insult a lot.
Lex Fridman (2:08:30.360)
I think I'm the last year of the boomer generation.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:08:32.520)
It's a mindset.
Lex Fridman (2:08:33.520)
I think I hit that last.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:08:34.520)
It's a mindset.
Lex Fridman (2:08:35.520)
There you go.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:08:36.520)
I love you so much.
Lex Fridman (2:08:38.640)
So the reason she said she couldn't have developed her, the reason she said she couldn't develop
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:08:43.600)
the philosophy without the Industrial Revolution is the link between reason and wealth was not
Lex Fridman (2:08:52.120)
obvious before the Industrial Revolution.
Lex Fridman (2:08:54.200)
And that, for example, it's not obvious to Aristotle.
Lex Fridman (2:08:56.960)
Aristotle doesn't see the link between rationality and wealth creation.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:09:00.400)
Business is low.
Lex Fridman (2:09:03.240)
And money is barren, interest has no productive function, bankers don't have.
Lex Fridman (2:09:10.480)
So you had to see it existentially to be able to see reason is the source of wealth creation.
Lex Fridman (2:09:18.080)
So I think that's a little different.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:09:20.080)
Now, there is a sense in which, yes, technology makes it more difficult for authoritarians
Lex Fridman (2:09:25.760)
to achieve their authoritarianism.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:09:29.360)
I'm not convinced that they can't.
Lex Fridman (2:09:31.160)
I didn't say can't.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:09:32.160)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:09:33.160)
At a certain point, because they can turn off the electricity.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:09:36.440)
I'm just saying it becomes more expensive.
Lex Fridman (2:09:38.160)
It becomes more expensive, no question.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:09:40.180)
It becomes more expensive.
Lex Fridman (2:09:41.440)
And we're still beings that live in a physical reality, therefore, they can still harm us
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:09:48.400)
in this physical reality.
Lex Fridman (2:09:49.760)
But let me say this, it's going to sound as absurd.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:09:52.480)
If there was technology that we could teleport anywhere on Earth at the speed of light, that
Lex Fridman (2:09:56.040)
would certainly go a long way towards hurting authoritarianism.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:09:59.440)
If there was some way to go, and of course, they could teleport too.
Lex Fridman (2:10:03.320)
And this is, of course, the danger of they can use the technology too, and look at what
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:10:08.080)
the Chinese are doing with social scores and with monitoring people and cameras everywhere.
Lex Fridman (2:10:13.520)
So there's a sense in which you probably had more privacy before some of this technology.
Lex Fridman (2:10:18.960)
So it's not obvious to me.
Lex Fridman (2:10:21.100)
So to me, it's all about ideas.
Lex Fridman (2:10:23.280)
And if we don't get the ideas right, technology will be used for evil, yes, and it will allow
Lex Fridman (2:10:28.080)
some of us maybe to escape for a little while in some realms, but others not.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:10:33.920)
You know, Iran and North Korea do a pretty good job shutting themselves away from technology,
Lex Fridman (2:10:39.280)
although a lot gets through in the Iranian, at least with Iran.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:10:43.840)
I don't know about North Korea, how much gets through.
Lex Fridman (2:10:45.840)
It's really undermining them, which is wonderful.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:10:47.640)
Yeah, which is great.
Lex Fridman (2:10:49.620)
So yes, but it's more than that.
Lex Fridman (2:10:51.880)
And this is what leads me to be optimistic.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:10:54.640)
It's that we live in a world today where 7 billion people basically have access to all
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:11:00.920)
of human knowledge, all of human knowledge.
Lex Fridman (2:11:04.400)
It's not like in Rome.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:11:05.960)
When Rome fell, all of human knowledge disappeared.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:11:08.560)
Now some of it escaped to Byzantine, some of the Byzantines had and ultimately land
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:11:12.260)
up with the Arabs and found its way back into Western civilization through them.
Lex Fridman (2:11:16.320)
But a lot of knowledge disappeared, just wiped out, right?
Lex Fridman (2:11:19.220)
How to build a dome, how to build a big dome, how to have...
Lex Fridman (2:11:22.160)
You know, in Pompeii, they had faucets, running water and faucets.
Lex Fridman (2:11:26.440)
They didn't have faucets for another thousand years, right?
Lex Fridman (2:11:30.840)
A lot of...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:11:31.840)
They couldn't build tall buildings once Rome came down.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:11:34.600)
The Great Pyramid of Egypt was the tallest building on earth till like 1840, it was crazy.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:11:39.400)
Rome was a city of a million people.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:11:41.600)
Other than China, there wasn't another city of a million people in the West until London
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:11:45.440)
in the 19th century, 1500 years later.
Lex Fridman (2:11:48.680)
So it all disappeared because all of it was concentrated basically in one place.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:11:53.020)
Today none of that exists because of the internet, because of universities everywhere, institutions.
Lex Fridman (2:11:58.040)
I mean, think about how many engineers there are in the world today, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:12:01.400)
Who have basically all different...
Lex Fridman (2:12:04.320)
Basically the same level of knowledge on how to build stuff.
Lex Fridman (2:12:06.840)
So even if the United States went to some kind of dark ages, it's unlikely the whole
Lex Fridman (2:12:10.840)
world goes into that kind of dark ages.
Lex Fridman (2:12:12.900)
So I am optimistic in that sense that the fusion of knowledge is so broad today that
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:12:19.840)
other than wiping out all electricity on the planet, everything electronic on the planet,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:12:24.560)
it's just, it's not going to be possible to control us all.
Lex Fridman (2:12:27.200)
And in that sense, technology is going to make it possible for us to survive and to
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:12:31.500)
stay semi free, because I don't think full freedom, but semi free.
Lex Fridman (2:12:35.440)
Because full freedom, you need the ideas.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:12:37.220)
Because full freedom means you need some political implementation.
Lex Fridman (2:12:39.640)
No, full freedom means anarchy, but we know that.
Lex Fridman (2:12:42.560)
So we need to get into that because we can't leave without pointing out that we fundamentally
Lex Fridman (2:12:47.560)
disagree about that.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:12:48.560)
Oh, that's beautiful to be continued on that one.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:12:52.640)
Let me ask about one particular technology that I've been learning a lot about, thinking
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:12:57.420)
a lot about, talking about, which is Bitcoin or cryptocurrency in general, but Bitcoin
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:13:02.080)
specifically, which a lot of people argue that the Bitcoin, that setting ideas aside,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:13:11.480)
when you look at practical tools that governments use to manipulate its people is inflation
Lex Fridman (2:13:16.320)
of the monetary system, within the monetary system.
Lex Fridman (2:13:19.600)
And so they see Bitcoin as a way for the, for individuals to fight that, to go outside
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:13:26.100)
those specific government control systems and thereby sort of decentralizing power.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:13:33.300)
You know, there's a case to be made historically of the 20th century that you couldn't have
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:13:37.060)
Stalin, you couldn't have Hitler, you couldn't have much of the evil that you see in the
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:13:41.560)
world if they couldn't control the monetary system.
Lex Fridman (2:13:43.800)
You couldn't have had the New Deal.
Lex Fridman (2:13:45.200)
And FDR realized this very quickly.
Lex Fridman (2:13:46.920)
That's why they confiscated all the gold.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:13:49.360)
Everybody knows FDR is going to come in to become president and confiscate the gold.
Lex Fridman (2:13:53.860)
So one of the mythologies, the myths about the Great Depression is that there were all
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:14:00.960)
these bank runs that, well, bank runs happened because everybody was afraid that FDR would
Lex Fridman (2:14:07.080)
get elected to confiscate the gold.
Lex Fridman (2:14:08.600)
So everybody ran to the bank and took the gold.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:14:11.280)
Little did they realize that he would confiscate their private holdings in their own backyards.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:14:15.520)
He would force them to dig up the gold from their own backyards.
Lex Fridman (2:14:18.240)
But yes, one of the first things FDR did in spite of denying it throughout the campaign,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:14:22.040)
right, he was asked about this over and over again and denied it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:14:25.600)
One of the first things was take over the gold and take the United States Federal Reserve
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:14:29.960)
off the gold standard so that they can, in a sense, print money and that he could start
Lex Fridman (2:14:34.800)
spending.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:14:35.800)
Yeah, what people don't realize, just to clarify what Yaron said, is FDR, this is something
Lex Fridman (2:14:39.720)
that's so crazy to us that we think, okay, I'm misunderstanding it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:14:42.920)
FDR made it illegal for people to own gold unless it's like a wedding ring.
Lex Fridman (2:14:48.600)
And before that, contracts, because inflation was a concern, I make a contract with Yaron,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:14:54.600)
right, I said, okay, you're either going to pay me in $1,500 for my work or the gold
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:14:59.800)
equivalent because if that $1,500, you know, weimar Germany and you have hyperinflation,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:15:05.760)
I don't want that $1,500.
Lex Fridman (2:15:07.280)
Just give me the gold bullion.
Lex Fridman (2:15:08.800)
And FDR said all of those clauses, he broke every contract, they don't matter.
Lex Fridman (2:15:15.280)
So now if I say, Yaron says, okay, you owe me three feet of drywall.
Lex Fridman (2:15:20.280)
And I go, here's three feet of drywall.
Lex Fridman (2:15:22.180)
It's 12 inches.
Lex Fridman (2:15:23.180)
And you go, wait, wait, wait, three feet is 36 inches.
Lex Fridman (2:15:25.360)
I go, no, no, not anymore.
Lex Fridman (2:15:26.360)
It's like, what am I supposed to do?
Lex Fridman (2:15:28.000)
And because you have, when you print more money, the value of every individual dollar
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:15:32.780)
matters less, it becomes that much harder to plan anything, either in the government
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:15:38.600)
level or in the private level, because if I'm managing outlays, if I'm trying to pay
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:15:43.540)
my workers, I'm trying to build factories, I'm thinking long term, and I don't know what
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:15:47.160)
this dollar is going to buy in 10 years, that puts an enormous incentive for me to spend
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:15:52.400)
it now and not save it, because if I save it, it's going to be worth a lot less.
Lex Fridman (2:15:56.720)
And the worst thing about inflation, and this is something I think people who are pro capitalism
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:16:00.400)
don't talk about enough, they do talk about it, I would just like to see it more.
Lex Fridman (2:16:04.020)
This by far hurts the poor, the poorest of the poor the most.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:16:09.140)
When we came to this country, my mom told me they would go to 86th street in Bensonhurst
Lex Fridman (2:16:14.160)
with the fruit stands to buy Mika Chika, some grapes.
Lex Fridman (2:16:17.480)
And you go to this fruit stand, and she'd walk all the way to the other corner.
Lex Fridman (2:16:21.120)
And if it was three cents more a pound, or less a pound, she'd walk all the way back,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:16:25.200)
because that three cents mattered.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:16:26.760)
Now if I have this dollar, and it's 5% inflation or whatever, and next year it's 95 cents,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:16:32.860)
me and you, the three of us might not care, but if I'm destitute hand to mouth, and I've
Lex Fridman (2:16:37.480)
got 5% less, that is really a material consequence of my life.
Lex Fridman (2:16:42.720)
So inflation really is evil, because it hurts the people for who those pennies matter.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:16:48.440)
Well, one of the ways the government gets around that, and it's because they get smart
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:16:52.160)
to that, is they index everything, so they index your social security, they index welfare,
Lex Fridman (2:16:57.820)
they try to make sure, but that only makes you more dependent on them.
Lex Fridman (2:17:01.880)
And the people in the modern context that inflation hurts the most are savers, people
Lex Fridman (2:17:07.120)
trying to save money.
Lex Fridman (2:17:08.400)
And Fed policy right now is just horrific if you're a saver, because the Fed, the interest
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:17:14.440)
rates are zero, you get nothing on your saving, and cost of living is going up, maybe not
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:17:19.640)
at a huge level, but it is going up, and yet you can't even save to keep the value of your
Lex Fridman (2:17:26.960)
dollars.
Lex Fridman (2:17:27.960)
And the government controls, and this has massive perverse effects, because it's not
Lex Fridman (2:17:33.360)
just that prices go up, it's that prices don't reflect reality anymore.
Lex Fridman (2:17:38.480)
So some prices go up, some prices might not.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:17:41.760)
Investments get distorted, things get produced that shouldn't get produced, and then people
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:17:45.980)
like Richard Wolff turn around and blame all the distortions, and the perversions, and
Lex Fridman (2:17:50.160)
the crashes, and the financial crisis on capitalism.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:17:53.600)
Not on the fact that the Fed, look at the financial crisis, financial crisis was caused,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:17:57.560)
you could argue by inflation, and we could get into that if you wanted, but that's probably
Lex Fridman (2:18:01.600)
a three hour show, just that, right?
Lex Fridman (2:18:03.680)
It was caused by the Federal Reserve, and yet who got blamed for the financial crisis?
Lex Fridman (2:18:07.680)
Who would Richard Wolff is going to jump up and down?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:18:09.800)
This is a crisis of capitalism, this was caused by capitalism, but capitalism is the negation
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:18:13.680)
of the Fed.
Lex Fridman (2:18:15.680)
Capitalism says there should be no Fed.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:18:18.280)
That's item number one on the list of the things capitalists want, is to get rid of
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:18:24.840)
the Fed, and then grant you guys your wish, have competition for currency, and let's see
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:18:29.120)
if Bitcoin wins.
Lex Fridman (2:18:30.120)
I'm skeptical, but I don't care.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:18:32.440)
My point is under freedom.
Lex Fridman (2:18:34.000)
I don't care who wins, I just want free choices, and let the best currency win.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:18:39.640)
I doubt that becomes Bitcoin, but it doesn't really matter.
Lex Fridman (2:18:43.200)
If I'm wrong, great.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:18:44.200)
Let me add to this, and I think people appreciate, and this is a leftist, leftism at its best,
Lex Fridman (2:18:49.560)
that the government and the banks are in bed with each other.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:18:51.620)
This I don't think is a particularly controversial statement.
Lex Fridman (2:18:53.440)
Well I don't like that statement, let me just say why I don't like it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:18:56.400)
I don't like it because it assumes that they're equal partners, or that there's causality
Lex Fridman (2:19:00.480)
goes in both directions.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:19:02.800)
From day one, and this is really from day one of the establishment of the United States,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:19:07.720)
banks have been regulated by the state, and the reason for that is primarily Jefferson
Lex Fridman (2:19:12.280)
and others, founders, distrust of finance.
Lex Fridman (2:19:16.520)
So from the beginning, banks have been controlled by the state.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:19:20.520)
Now over time, if I'm controlling you, you won't have influence over me, because I get
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:19:25.600)
to, so yes, they get into bed over time, so I don't like it that they're in bed together.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:19:31.080)
One is dominating over the other, and the other is participating, because what choice
Lex Fridman (2:19:34.640)
do they have?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:19:35.640)
I should explain to you how things work when you get in bed, and it's not always equal.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:19:40.320)
Okay, so let's talk about safe words, which is very Randian topic, she doesn't like those.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:19:46.880)
I had to read that scene three times in the Fountainhead, because I couldn't believe what
Lex Fridman (2:19:49.880)
I was reading.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:19:50.880)
I'm sure you did.
Lex Fridman (2:19:51.880)
I'm sure you did.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:19:52.880)
No, because I looked at the back cover, I'm like, a woman wrote this book in 1943, I
Lex Fridman (2:19:55.920)
must be misunderstanding the scene.
Lex Fridman (2:19:57.400)
And it's 43.
Lex Fridman (2:19:58.400)
Yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:19:59.400)
She sure had a lot of shades of gray.
Lex Fridman (2:20:00.400)
Yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:20:01.400)
So, no, she hated that.
Lex Fridman (2:20:02.400)
She hated that.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:20:03.400)
Only black and white.
Lex Fridman (2:20:04.400)
No, but what I meant is, 2008, you have the bailout of Wall Street.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:20:09.520)
Whereas in 2020, we saw every medium and small business under the sun go under, there's not
Lex Fridman (2:20:14.280)
even a pretense that these are going to be bailed out.
Lex Fridman (2:20:17.240)
So the priorities of the politicians, in my view, are always going to be towards powerful
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:20:21.120)
entities, powerful corporations, and they're not going to be about the medium guy, the
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:20:24.880)
middle guy.
Lex Fridman (2:20:25.880)
Let me just finish my point, because I see you champing at the bit.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:20:29.520)
At the very least, if you have regulation, people influencing each other.
Lex Fridman (2:20:33.780)
With Bitcoin, and with crypto, that is not a possibility.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:20:38.280)
You do not have any agency who is king of Bitcoin, who is the Federal Reserve of Bitcoin.
Lex Fridman (2:20:44.960)
There is no organizing organization or management team.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:20:48.840)
Now, you could say this is a bad thing, but you can't say that this is a different thing
Lex Fridman (2:20:53.880)
to money as opposed to Federal Reserve system.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:20:55.800)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:20:56.800)
So I agree with that description of Bitcoin, my problems with Bitcoin, elsewhere.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:21:01.480)
Let me just say about the financial crisis, I don't like it phrased that way again.
Lex Fridman (2:21:07.400)
They let Lehman go under and destroyed Lehman Brothers.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:21:11.660)
In the past, they destroyed Drexel Burnham because they didn't like Michael Malkin.
Lex Fridman (2:21:17.840)
They are vindictive.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:21:19.840)
It's not an accident that the Treasury Secretary at the time was an ex chairman of Goldman
Lex Fridman (2:21:25.540)
Sachs, not Lehman Brothers, and Goldman hates Lehman.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:21:29.120)
The next day, they bail out AIG.
Lex Fridman (2:21:32.500)
What I got out of financial crisis more than anything, and by the way, there wasn't a bailout,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:21:36.000)
it wasn't even a bailout, because they gave money to every bank, whether they had problems
Lex Fridman (2:21:41.880)
or not.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:21:42.880)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (2:21:43.880)
And indeed, I know several bankers, including big banks, like JP Morgan and Wes Falgo, and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:21:48.240)
a friend of mine, John Allison of BB&T, who told them explicitly, we don't want your money,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:21:53.460)
we don't need your money, and they were basically, a gun was put to their head and they said,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:21:57.720)
you don't take the money, we'll shut you down, basically, the equivalent of that.
Lex Fridman (2:22:02.320)
So they, A, wanted a virtue signal, so there's a big virtue signal, we're taking care of
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:22:09.000)
things, don't worry, we've got everything under control, even though they were completely
Lex Fridman (2:22:12.360)
panicking and they had no clue what they were doing.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:22:16.320)
One of the things that the financial crisis really illustrated was how pathetic, ignorant,
Lex Fridman (2:22:23.560)
and incompetent the people at the top are, and they knew it.
Lex Fridman (2:22:27.400)
And they, you know, Sir Paulson goes to Congress, says, give me $700 billion, don't tell me
Lex Fridman (2:22:31.640)
how to use it, because I have no clue, just give it to me and give me your authoritarian
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:22:35.480)
power to do it any way I want.
Lex Fridman (2:22:37.080)
And that was not out of a sense of grandeur, that was a sense of panic, he had no idea,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:22:41.560)
he had no clue, none of them did.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:22:44.740)
They bailed out everybody they could, everybody under their, you know, within their periphery,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:22:50.520)
when they thought it was appropriate, they were vindictive about some people like Lehman,
Lex Fridman (2:22:55.120)
it was complete arbitrary use of power.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:22:58.560)
The bankers didn't benefit from this, indeed, many bankers that took their money lost from
Lex Fridman (2:23:02.760)
it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:23:03.760)
Bank stocks got crushed after the bailout.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:23:06.520)
Before the bailout, bank stocks were doing okay, and right after top was announced, bank
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:23:10.680)
stocks crushed because this was bad for banks, it wasn't good for banks.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:23:15.480)
This is just central planning gone amok, it's not them bailing out elites, it's them, you
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:23:22.360)
know, throwing money at a problem without knowing what they would actually do and what
Lex Fridman (2:23:26.760)
the consequences would be.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:23:27.920)
Right.
Lex Fridman (2:23:28.920)
But the point is, sorry, where we agree, the focus will always be on bailing out elites.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:23:34.280)
It's almost...
Lex Fridman (2:23:35.280)
But little banks got money too.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:23:36.280)
No, I was saying that last year, there's no talk of saving ice and vice, saving Century
Lex Fridman (2:23:41.160)
21, saving all these other industries.
Lex Fridman (2:23:43.160)
But sure there were, if you look at it, it's just, sure there was, if you look at the,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:23:47.400)
if you look at what the Fed did, the Fed was bailing out third, fourth class businesses
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:23:53.440)
in all kinds of areas that you wouldn't consider elitist areas, the whole PPP, the way...
Lex Fridman (2:23:59.480)
You're talking 2008.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:24:00.480)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:24:01.480)
No, I'm talking about now.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:24:02.480)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (2:24:03.480)
I'm talking about COVID last year.
Lex Fridman (2:24:04.480)
What the Fed did was unbelievable, the kind of bonds that they were buying, even 2008,
Lex Fridman (2:24:08.840)
even after 2008, I couldn't believe what they did last year.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:24:11.440)
PPP, the Payable Protection Program was targeted at everybody, everybody got PPP.
Lex Fridman (2:24:18.040)
It's not about...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:24:19.040)
I don't think it's about bailing out elites, it's about securing their power base.
Lex Fridman (2:24:22.960)
And if they believe that securing their power base is Wall Street, then they'll bail out
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:24:25.960)
Wall Street.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:24:26.960)
They believe securing their power base is writing checks to restaurant owners all over
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:24:31.640)
the country, they'll write checks to restaurant owners all over the country, which is what
Lex Fridman (2:24:34.400)
they did with PPP.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:24:36.540)
It's all about power for them and it's whatever will achieve power, whatever will result in
Lex Fridman (2:24:40.520)
power.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:24:41.520)
I don't think it's about elites.
Lex Fridman (2:24:42.520)
I don't see elitism in the bailouts of last year.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:24:46.680)
I agree.
Lex Fridman (2:24:47.680)
I agree it wasn't last year.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:24:48.680)
I'm saying that's one distinction between 2008 and 2020.
Lex Fridman (2:24:50.800)
And I do think, just one more thing, I do think getting in good bed with the elites
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:24:56.120)
is a great mechanism in general for maintaining one's power.
Lex Fridman (2:24:59.200)
Oh yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:25:00.200)
Yeah, that's not a dispute.
Lex Fridman (2:25:01.200)
Depending on how we define it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:25:02.200)
Of course, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:25:03.200)
Yeah, absolutely.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:25:04.200)
You mentioned there's some criticism towards Bitcoin, there's a lot of excitement about
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:25:08.240)
the technology of Bitcoin for the resistance against this kind of central state pursuit
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:25:16.640)
of power.
Lex Fridman (2:25:17.640)
So that's part of my criticism because I don't think it works.
Lex Fridman (2:25:19.800)
So yeah, I can imagine a world, I can imagine, I'd love to see a technology evolve that where
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:25:28.360)
money is competitive and it's a financial instrument that the government cannot touch.
Lex Fridman (2:25:34.600)
You think the state is too powerful?
Lex Fridman (2:25:36.400)
I think two things.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:25:37.760)
I think right now, and maybe this won't be true in the future, right now, I think crypto
Lex Fridman (2:25:43.160)
is ill...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:25:44.160)
It cannot function as money right now.
Lex Fridman (2:25:45.600)
It just can't.
Lex Fridman (2:25:46.600)
But it does.
Lex Fridman (2:25:47.600)
No, it doesn't.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:25:48.700)
It functions as a mechanism.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:25:50.880)
It functions as a mechanism to transfer, it's a technology that allows me to transfer fiat
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:25:56.840)
money from place to place, but it doesn't function, and it can't because it's too volatile.
Lex Fridman (2:26:02.680)
I've sold things with Bitcoin.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:26:03.680)
No, I know you have, but I can sell things.
Lex Fridman (2:26:06.080)
I can buy things and sell things with my airline model.
Lex Fridman (2:26:08.520)
So there are lots of ways in which you can use things as money, but it doesn't make them
Lex Fridman (2:26:12.480)
money.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:26:13.480)
If you're using something as money, it's money.
Lex Fridman (2:26:14.480)
So let me take something you said before.
Lex Fridman (2:26:17.640)
And it contradicts, I think, Bitcoin.
Lex Fridman (2:26:19.360)
You said one of the things about money is that it's stable.
Lex Fridman (2:26:22.400)
I know what it's gonna buy tomorrow, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:26:24.660)
This is why we're against inflation, because I know what the dollar today I can plan, because
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:26:28.480)
I can't plan...
Lex Fridman (2:26:29.480)
I don't know what Bitcoin's gonna be worth tomorrow.
Lex Fridman (2:26:31.240)
So I can't plan with Bitcoin.
Lex Fridman (2:26:33.200)
Bitcoin is way too volatile to serve right now as money.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:26:35.800)
Now, the argument from Bitcoiners is, yes, it's still being adopted.
Lex Fridman (2:26:41.000)
At some point, it'll reach a certain crucial mass.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:26:43.560)
High perfect monetization, yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:26:44.560)
Yes, and then it will become money, because at that point, it can be used as money, because
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:26:48.680)
then it'll have a stable value.
Lex Fridman (2:26:51.520)
Maybe right now, it's not useful as money, because I can't predict what...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:26:56.120)
I can't invest in it knowing what the value will be in five years.
Lex Fridman (2:27:00.560)
Right now, it's an asset.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:27:01.800)
It's not a monetary unit.
Lex Fridman (2:27:05.160)
It's much more functions as an asset.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:27:06.960)
Asset's value can go up.
Lex Fridman (2:27:07.960)
Oh, I agree.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:27:08.960)
It's functioning much more as an asset than as money.
Lex Fridman (2:27:09.960)
That's not in dispute.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:27:10.960)
I agree with that completely.
Lex Fridman (2:27:11.960)
So I don't think it's money.
Lex Fridman (2:27:12.960)
But so I think it's still...
Lex Fridman (2:27:16.920)
I think it can compete as a money with something tangible.
Lex Fridman (2:27:20.000)
So I think in a free market, some kind of crypto backed by gold would be more successful.
Lex Fridman (2:27:25.280)
So Bitcoin folks argue that Bitcoin has all the same fundamental properties that does
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:27:30.960)
gold.
Lex Fridman (2:27:32.220)
So it's backed by...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:27:33.920)
There's a scarcity to it, and it's backed by proof of work, so it's backed by physical
Lex Fridman (2:27:39.720)
resources.
Lex Fridman (2:27:40.720)
And so they say that's a very natural replacement of gold, so it doesn't need to be connected
Lex Fridman (2:27:44.960)
to gold.
Lex Fridman (2:27:45.960)
So there are two things that gold has that it doesn't have.
Lex Fridman (2:27:50.120)
One is gold is not finite.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:27:52.640)
Gold supply actually grows over time.
Lex Fridman (2:27:54.160)
Bitcoin at some point is truly finite.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:27:56.960)
At least unless you count the fact that you can split bitcoins and create coins, but that's
Lex Fridman (2:28:02.060)
a whole other question.
Lex Fridman (2:28:04.520)
So that's one.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:28:05.520)
The other one is that gold has value beyond its use as a currency, beyond its use as money.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:28:14.720)
For jewelry and stuff.
Lex Fridman (2:28:15.720)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:28:16.720)
But you minimize that.
Lex Fridman (2:28:17.840)
But jewelry and stuff has been important for the human race for 100,000 years.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:28:21.760)
You can find jewelry in caves, for the cavemen designed jewelry and wore them.
Lex Fridman (2:28:26.200)
So we obviously as human beings value jewelry a lot.
Lex Fridman (2:28:29.360)
And almost all jewelry evolved to be made out of gold because whatever it is within
Lex Fridman (2:28:33.720)
us is attracted to shiny gold in particular, shiny object generally.
Lex Fridman (2:28:38.240)
So there's something about gold that appeals to human beings.
Lex Fridman (2:28:40.480)
There's some value that gold has beyond its being a currency.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:28:44.640)
It's not that Bitcoin doesn't.
Lex Fridman (2:28:46.140)
Now it's not enough to use it as money.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:28:48.480)
Lots of things appeal to human beings.
Lex Fridman (2:28:50.340)
But those are two characteristics.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:28:52.280)
One that it's not finite and second that it is a value beyond that Bitcoin doesn't have.
Lex Fridman (2:28:59.120)
Don't you think the finiteness could be framed as a feature?
Lex Fridman (2:29:01.660)
The scarcity of Bitcoin?
Lex Fridman (2:29:02.920)
No, because I think it creates a real problem with scarcity economically.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:29:07.880)
It's the issue of planning.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:29:10.100)
There is a mechanism, there's a beautiful mechanism in markets that as the supply of
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:29:15.120)
gold is in a sense the quantity of gold is...
Lex Fridman (2:29:21.640)
Prices are going down because there's too little gold, right?
Lex Fridman (2:29:24.280)
So the value of gold in a sense in dollar terms, the prices are going down.
Lex Fridman (2:29:28.000)
What happens then is there's an incentive to then go mine for more gold, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:29:34.880)
Because it becomes cheaper and cheaper to mine as the price goes down.
Lex Fridman (2:29:37.800)
So you mine for more gold, so it keeps increasing and it keeps increasing basically very correlated
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:29:43.500)
to the rate of increasing productivity.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:29:46.460)
That's the beauty of gold mining because prices are related to gold, gold is the dominant
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:29:51.760)
money and it increases at about the same rate as productivity.
Lex Fridman (2:29:55.440)
So it keeps prices relatively stable.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:29:59.920)
You still have bouts of inflation and deflation, but it keeps it relatively stable.
Lex Fridman (2:30:04.080)
With Bitcoin it's fine at its ends, now prices will only decline.
Lex Fridman (2:30:08.400)
What rate will they decline at?
Lex Fridman (2:30:09.640)
They'll decline at the rate of productivity increases.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:30:12.800)
It's hard to predict the rate at which productivity increases.
Lex Fridman (2:30:15.480)
For example, technological shocks can change that dramatically.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:30:19.840)
You could get bouts of dramatic deflation, dramatic price drops that could be problematic
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:30:26.180)
in terms of planning the same problem of inflation just reversed that you had before.
Lex Fridman (2:30:31.480)
So again, it's a technical issue.
Lex Fridman (2:30:34.160)
I'm sure there are ways to get around it.
Lex Fridman (2:30:35.720)
And again, I'm not sure.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:30:38.320)
I don't know if you guys consider Bitcoin the end or the beginning, that is, is Bitcoin
Lex Fridman (2:30:43.160)
it or is Bitcoin just the first example of a technology that's evolving?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:30:46.760)
I was just going to say there's the same technological issue with regard to gold, which is we now
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:30:51.560)
have the technology that was very expensive to turn elements into different elements.
Lex Fridman (2:30:56.300)
And at a certain, yeah, you could fire electrons at it or whatever.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:30:59.680)
You can make gold.
Lex Fridman (2:31:00.680)
They figured out how to do it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:31:01.680)
It's not cheap and it's called big process.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:31:04.280)
If gold is the standard, a lot of resources are going to be going toward turning other
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:31:09.680)
things into gold, making the production of gold cheaper.
Lex Fridman (2:31:12.300)
And that's going to have a similar consequence that Laurence talked about.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:31:16.220)
That's kind of the category of security that Bitcoin has talked about, that it's very difficult
Lex Fridman (2:31:19.680)
to do that with Bitcoin.
Lex Fridman (2:31:21.680)
But I would argue that it's exceptionally difficult to do that with gold.
Lex Fridman (2:31:24.280)
It is now.
Lex Fridman (2:31:25.280)
But the thing is, there's not huge incentive.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:31:26.540)
If gold is the basis and if gold is worth that much, gold isn't worth that much.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:31:32.040)
Gold is worth, let's say, I'm saying in this world that we're talking about, in the future,
Lex Fridman (2:31:36.000)
gold is not going to be worth, let's say right now, gold is about 2000 bucks.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:31:39.200)
It's less than 2000.
Lex Fridman (2:31:40.200)
Let's say it's 2000 bucks.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:31:42.160)
That's its price in terms of dollars.
Lex Fridman (2:31:44.480)
So you'd have to, it would have to be worthwhile to create something of 2000 dollars.
Lex Fridman (2:31:48.320)
How much would you be willing to put into it?
Lex Fridman (2:31:49.880)
At some point, you're right.
Lex Fridman (2:31:50.880)
And at that point, I think gold stops being money because it's useless.
Lex Fridman (2:31:55.000)
Once I can create it like silicon, then once I can make out official gold.
Lex Fridman (2:31:59.800)
So I'm just not, I don't think Bitcoin is the solution.
Lex Fridman (2:32:02.840)
I think, I don't know what the solution is.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:32:06.080)
I wish I was that innovative, but I think you need a solution that has more of the characteristics
Lex Fridman (2:32:12.520)
of gold than Bitcoin currently has.
Lex Fridman (2:32:14.600)
And I'm, I guess I'm surprised at a lot of the technologists who view Bitcoin as the
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:32:21.440)
end game, where it strikes me as it's a, it's the birth of a new tech, it represents the
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:32:26.100)
birth of a new technology and who the winner in that technology is going to be.
Lex Fridman (2:32:29.920)
We have no clue.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:32:30.920)
Bitcoin is one of the players, there are other players.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:32:34.080)
There might be a new technology that is even better than anything we can imagine right
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:32:37.600)
now that, so Bitcoin doesn't strike me as optimal.
Lex Fridman (2:32:42.280)
And that we should be moving towards something better.
Lex Fridman (2:32:44.400)
Can you please stop shilling randcoin for five minutes?
Lex Fridman (2:32:50.560)
You know where there was randcoin?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:32:51.560)
There was rand.
Lex Fridman (2:32:52.560)
South Africa.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:32:53.560)
No, I was.
Lex Fridman (2:32:54.560)
The agri currency is rand.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:32:55.560)
No, that's true.
Lex Fridman (2:32:56.560)
No, I mean.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:32:57.560)
Ayn Rand is the South African one dollar.
Lex Fridman (2:32:59.040)
Yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:33:00.040)
Ayn Rand coin was, I was in China in 20, I think it was 2015 or 14.
Lex Fridman (2:33:04.840)
What's that?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:33:05.840)
China.
Lex Fridman (2:33:06.840)
China.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:33:07.840)
I was in China 20, something like that.
Lex Fridman (2:33:10.540)
And this entrepreneur came up to me, she said she's bought this massive quantity of land
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:33:16.200)
in this area in China, it's a little secluded.
Lex Fridman (2:33:19.240)
She's starting what she's calling Gold's Gulch.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:33:21.600)
She's serious.
Lex Fridman (2:33:22.800)
And she's issuing, and she issued cryptocurrency based on the land, right backed by the land
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:33:30.000)
called rand, but Ayn Rand with a little portrait of Ayn Rand, you know, a little portrait in
Lex Fridman (2:33:34.520)
the marketing.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:33:35.520)
I don't think it went anywhere.
Lex Fridman (2:33:36.520)
You're not going to be a janitor?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:33:39.520)
A janitor in China at Gold's Gulch.
Lex Fridman (2:33:42.240)
Yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:33:43.240)
By the way, I do want to point out something I do enjoy about Objectivist.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:33:46.960)
I constantly talk about Ayn Rand and her vampire novels and that's the joke you're on.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:33:52.760)
Thank you.
Lex Fridman (2:33:54.160)
And inevitably someone feels the need to point out that she did not write vampire novels
Lex Fridman (2:33:59.160)
and her name is actually Ayn.
Lex Fridman (2:34:00.480)
So thank you.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:34:01.480)
Thank you.
Lex Fridman (2:34:02.480)
We've been talking for two hours.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:34:03.480)
I owed her a copy of the Fountainhead.
Lex Fridman (2:34:05.240)
Somehow I thought her name was Ayn.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:34:06.440)
Thank you.
Lex Fridman (2:34:07.440)
Thank you.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:34:08.440)
I love them.
Lex Fridman (2:34:10.160)
So this is a really interesting way of phrasing it, which is...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:34:13.840)
I was kidding with the Ayn.
Lex Fridman (2:34:15.360)
I know you knew how to pronounce it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:34:17.200)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:34:18.200)
I know you know, you know.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:34:19.200)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:34:20.200)
It just got confusing.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:34:21.200)
I think we all know and we all know that we're jokers here.
Lex Fridman (2:34:23.400)
We're all one.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:34:24.400)
There's no Batman in this conversation.
Lex Fridman (2:34:27.960)
So it's an interesting way to frame it.
Lex Fridman (2:34:29.800)
Is Bitcoin the end or the beginning of something?
Lex Fridman (2:34:32.240)
And I've, as sort of with an open mind and seeing kind of all the possibilities of technologies
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:34:37.800)
out there, I also kind of thought that Bitcoin is the beginning of something.
Lex Fridman (2:34:42.240)
But what the Bitcoin community argues is that Bitcoin is the end of the base layer, meaning
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:34:50.120)
all the different innovations will come on top of it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:34:53.520)
Like for example, there's something called lightning network where it's basically just
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:34:58.440)
like gold is the end and everything is built like the monetary systems like cash and all
Lex Fridman (2:35:03.120)
that is built on top of gold.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:35:05.240)
Bitcoin is the end in that other technologies are built on top of Bitcoin.
Lex Fridman (2:35:10.560)
That's their argument.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:35:11.560)
I get that and I hear that all the time and I just, I don't quite understand that.
Lex Fridman (2:35:16.880)
And I think Bitcoin has limitations that potentially other cryptocurrencies might not have.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:35:23.040)
You know, my attitude towards something like this is to a large extent, I don't understand
Lex Fridman (2:35:26.520)
this technology.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:35:28.120)
My view is let it play out.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:35:31.560)
I think I have more fear of physical, the ability of the government to crush these things
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:35:41.320)
than I think many in the community.
Lex Fridman (2:35:43.000)
So for example, so I gave a talk, Bitcoin, you know, and they were hyping the acceptance
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:35:49.200)
now.
Lex Fridman (2:35:50.200)
A lot of vendors will accept Bitcoin and this is great.
Lex Fridman (2:35:52.320)
And I said, yeah, it's absolutely great.
Lex Fridman (2:35:54.120)
More options is better than fewer options.
Lex Fridman (2:35:57.000)
But I said, you know that that could be taken away like that.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:36:00.320)
Now it's true that we could exchange Bitcoin and the government wouldn't know, I think,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:36:05.800)
wouldn't know that we do.
Lex Fridman (2:36:06.960)
But once he's advertising on his website that he accepts Bitcoin or once he tries to turn
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:36:11.560)
his Bitcoin into particular goods, once you manifest it in the physical world, now the
Lex Fridman (2:36:17.800)
government can step in.
Lex Fridman (2:36:18.800)
So the government could say, you can't sell anything to anybody using Bitcoin.
Lex Fridman (2:36:22.740)
They can do that and you won't be able to sell it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:36:24.920)
It will have to go into the black market.
Lex Fridman (2:36:26.920)
But that isn't able to sell it, just sell it in the black market.
Lex Fridman (2:36:29.480)
Yeah, but that's where the government thrives, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:36:31.400)
The government thrives on letting you do stuff in the black market so they can decide when
Lex Fridman (2:36:34.120)
to put you in jail or not, right?
Lex Fridman (2:36:36.280)
So if I'm buying a sweatshirt from the government, sorry, if I'm buying a sweatshirt from somebody
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:36:40.660)
using Bitcoin, the government can't monitor my exchange of Bitcoin to him.
Lex Fridman (2:36:45.480)
But they can monitor the sweatshirt being sent to me, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:36:49.480)
That's where they can interfere.
Lex Fridman (2:36:51.400)
And I think that at some point, to the extent Bitcoin is successful, it will be stopped.
Lex Fridman (2:36:58.240)
And that's what will stop it from becoming money.
Lex Fridman (2:37:00.400)
See, money can only become money.
Lex Fridman (2:37:02.920)
It can only become money if people are using it as money, right?
Lex Fridman (2:37:06.380)
And if the government can stop it being used, if I can't go to the grocery store and use
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:37:09.720)
my ATM that charges on Bitcoin or whatever, then it's not money.
Lex Fridman (2:37:15.580)
And I think that the government is going to step in and stop people from doing that.
Lex Fridman (2:37:21.680)
And that's what I...
Lex Fridman (2:37:23.240)
So I have more respect and fear for the power of government today.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:37:30.520)
I don't see that at all.
Lex Fridman (2:37:31.800)
However, I could be wrong.
Lex Fridman (2:37:33.400)
And I'm sure Yaron hopes he's wrong.
Lex Fridman (2:37:35.200)
Absolutely.
Lex Fridman (2:37:36.200)
And in some sense...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:37:37.200)
I hope the government just give in and the Fed tomorrow says, yeah, let Bitcoin thrive.
Lex Fridman (2:37:42.120)
But I think they'll want to regulate and control it.
Lex Fridman (2:37:43.880)
And the only way to regulate and control it is to stop it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:37:47.280)
Yeah, there's a bunch of people who argue that Bitcoin is too compelling to government
Lex Fridman (2:37:52.200)
that they'll actually embrace it, like a Trojan horse and stuff.
Lex Fridman (2:37:54.640)
But that assumes government has positive goals and wants to do good things.
Lex Fridman (2:37:58.260)
You can ask...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:37:59.260)
No, no, it's greedy.
Lex Fridman (2:38:01.080)
They say government is greedy because they...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:38:03.040)
Well, Bitcoiners have this whole lingo.
Lex Fridman (2:38:05.160)
They say number go up.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:38:07.600)
Government is not greedy.
Lex Fridman (2:38:09.360)
Government is not greedy for money.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:38:11.440)
Government is greedy for power.
Lex Fridman (2:38:13.040)
Government is greedy for control.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:38:15.520)
Government is much more...
Lex Fridman (2:38:16.520)
Now, money is good too.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:38:17.760)
They'll take the money if they can get it.
Lex Fridman (2:38:19.360)
But it's not fundamentally about money.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:38:21.660)
It's fundamentally...
Lex Fridman (2:38:22.660)
And this is something that many libertarians don't understand.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:38:26.000)
This is something many of the Bitcoin community don't understand.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:38:28.640)
They have far too benevolent a view of politicians and the people in government today.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:38:34.720)
By the way, I'm alive with this.
Lex Fridman (2:38:35.720)
And I know why he's laughing.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:38:36.720)
I think I know why he's laughing.
Lex Fridman (2:38:37.720)
You know exactly why I'm laughing.
Lex Fridman (2:38:39.360)
And we should get to that issue at some point here.
Lex Fridman (2:38:45.000)
So I think there's a lot of naivete.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:38:46.560)
Yeah, there's a lot.
Lex Fridman (2:38:47.560)
Speaking of naivete...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:38:48.560)
A lot of it, Yaron.
Lex Fridman (2:38:49.560)
No.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:38:50.560)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (2:38:51.560)
Okay.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:38:52.560)
I'm not naive.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:38:53.560)
I'm actually providing the warning and all these Bitcoiners are saying, no, no, no, government
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:38:58.440)
doesn't function that way.
Lex Fridman (2:38:59.440)
No one says I'm naive.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:39:01.000)
Naive people think they're not naive.
Lex Fridman (2:39:03.680)
So let's put this on the table.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:39:05.160)
Speaking of naive, I still more than the two of you by far, I think, have faith that government
Lex Fridman (2:39:11.880)
can work.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:39:12.880)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (2:39:13.880)
Let's put that on the table.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:39:14.880)
I got it.
Lex Fridman (2:39:15.880)
I'm not trying to be pedantic.
Lex Fridman (2:39:16.880)
What do you mean work?
Lex Fridman (2:39:19.200)
Government can achieve goals.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:39:20.320)
That is not a dispute.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:39:21.320)
Government can achieve goals effectively to build a better world, a functioning society.
Lex Fridman (2:39:28.760)
So I'm going to take it one step further than you.
Lex Fridman (2:39:31.400)
Oh, boy.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:39:32.400)
The only way to achieve a better world is through government.
Lex Fridman (2:39:37.080)
Michael, what do you think about that?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:39:40.120)
He almost dropped it.
Lex Fridman (2:39:41.120)
I said it on purpose that way.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:39:42.120)
I'm glad that the mask is dropping.
Lex Fridman (2:39:45.440)
You cannot achieve, you cannot have liberty or freedom without a government.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:39:50.680)
Now not anything like the governments we have today.
Lex Fridman (2:39:53.480)
So I think the idea that you can have liberty or freedom without government is the rejection
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:40:00.320)
of the idea of liberty and freedom and the undermining of any effort, any attempt to
Lex Fridman (2:40:06.280)
do it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:40:07.280)
In that sense, you, Lex, I know, exactly.
Lex Fridman (2:40:10.000)
On this side, I'm in agreement with Lex, which is unusual.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:40:12.600)
That government is good for freedom.
Lex Fridman (2:40:13.600)
Yeah, you're in agreement with the guy who's reading Mein Kampf.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:40:16.040)
That's not a surprise.
Lex Fridman (2:40:17.040)
Who's dressed in black.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:40:18.040)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:40:19.040)
That's the bad guys.
Lex Fridman (2:40:20.040)
But the fascism, I mean, the road to fascism is anarchy.
Lex Fridman (2:40:26.000)
It's not.
Lex Fridman (2:40:27.000)
What the hell are you talking about?
Lex Fridman (2:40:28.000)
Anarchy.
Lex Fridman (2:40:29.000)
Can you give me one example of an anarchy like the fascism?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:40:32.240)
Well, every example of a stateless society leads to authoritarianism, every single one
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:40:37.480)
in all of human history.
Lex Fridman (2:40:39.060)
It has to.
Lex Fridman (2:40:40.060)
Wait, wait, you're saying Weimar Germany was anarchy?
Lex Fridman (2:40:43.000)
Well, it wasn't pure anarchy, but it got close.
Lex Fridman (2:40:46.120)
But no.
Lex Fridman (2:40:47.120)
It got close to anarchy?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:40:48.120)
I said the reverse, by the way.
Lex Fridman (2:40:49.120)
I said the reverse.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:40:50.120)
I didn't say that every form of authoritarianism started with anarchy.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:40:53.600)
I said that every situation in which human beings lived under anarchy led to authoritarianism.
Lex Fridman (2:40:59.720)
So I said the flip was right.
Lex Fridman (2:41:01.620)
Anarchism isn't a location.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:41:03.160)
Anarchism is a relationship.
Lex Fridman (2:41:04.480)
The three of us are in an anarchist relationship.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:41:07.280)
Every country is in a relationship of anarchy toward each other.
Lex Fridman (2:41:10.680)
The US and Canada have an anarchist relationship toward one another.
Lex Fridman (2:41:14.480)
And to claim, you know, going back to Emma Goldman, who I love, in 1901, William McKinley,
Lex Fridman (2:41:23.920)
President McKinley, was shot by this guy, Leon Salgas.
Lex Fridman (2:41:27.260)
And it was very funny, but he was a crazy person.
Lex Fridman (2:41:31.100)
And they arrested him.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:41:32.100)
He shot the president.
Lex Fridman (2:41:33.420)
And they go, why did you shoot President McKinley?
Lex Fridman (2:41:36.540)
And he just goes, I was radicalized by Emma Goldman.
Lex Fridman (2:41:39.240)
And she's like, oh, goddammit.
Lex Fridman (2:41:40.640)
So now she's on the lam, she had nothing to do with this guy.
Lex Fridman (2:41:43.880)
She's trying to flee.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:41:45.640)
She gets arrested.
Lex Fridman (2:41:47.080)
They caught her.
Lex Fridman (2:41:48.760)
And she said, and this is the hubris of this woman, which I admire as the subject to be
Lex Fridman (2:41:53.880)
good hubris.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:41:54.880)
She goes, I'd like to thank the cops for doing what they're doing.
Lex Fridman (2:41:58.860)
They're turning far more people into anarchism than I could do on my own.
Lex Fridman (2:42:02.660)
So given everything you've said in these two hours, and then to pivot to being anti government
Lex Fridman (2:42:11.080)
is being anti liberty, I don't feel I have to say anything.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:42:15.200)
Well, okay.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:42:16.200)
For people who are not familiar, if you're, I don't know why you would not be familiar,
Lex Fridman (2:42:20.040)
but Michael Malice talks quite a bit about the evils of the state and government and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:42:26.200)
espouses ideas that anarchism is actually, what is it, the most moral system, the most
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:42:33.240)
effective system for human relationships.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:42:36.240)
There's this great book called Atlas Shrugged and the author posits an anarchist private
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:42:41.800)
society.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:42:42.800)
She calls it Galt's Gulch, where everything is privately owned and everyone is, no one
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:42:46.400)
is in a position of authority over anyone else other than the landowner.
Lex Fridman (2:42:50.160)
That's an anarchist society.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:42:51.160)
There's one judge and one authority.
Lex Fridman (2:42:54.400)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:42:55.400)
And that's what everyone has voluntarily moved there and agreed to be under.
Lex Fridman (2:43:00.800)
It's a very small community, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:43:02.400)
Sure.
Lex Fridman (2:43:03.400)
That is right.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:43:04.400)
There's no problem with competing governments.
Lex Fridman (2:43:06.480)
That's the definition of anarchism.
Lex Fridman (2:43:08.080)
What's that?
Lex Fridman (2:43:09.080)
That's the definition of anarchism.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:43:10.080)
Case closed.
Lex Fridman (2:43:11.080)
Okay.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:43:12.080)
End the show.
Lex Fridman (2:43:13.080)
End the show.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:43:14.080)
I got him over.
Lex Fridman (2:43:15.080)
Mission accomplished.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:43:16.080)
Not definition of anarchy at all.
Lex Fridman (2:43:17.080)
I'm all for competing governments.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:43:18.080)
Hold up.
Lex Fridman (2:43:19.080)
You get more cookies.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:43:20.080)
Good job.
Lex Fridman (2:43:21.080)
He did it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:43:22.080)
He did it.
Lex Fridman (2:43:23.080)
Yay.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:43:24.080)
You're wrong.
Lex Fridman (2:43:25.080)
You brought him over.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:43:26.080)
Red rover, red rover.
Lex Fridman (2:43:27.080)
More Lithuanian.
Lex Fridman (2:43:28.080)
What is this clown stuff?
Lex Fridman (2:43:29.080)
I was Lithuanian.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:43:30.080)
That's my people.
Lex Fridman (2:43:31.080)
Yasnaya Polyana, Miodom, it's honey.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:43:34.880)
No claims of health or nutrition.
Lex Fridman (2:43:36.640)
The other one claimed health.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:43:39.040)
This one no claims.
Lex Fridman (2:43:40.040)
This makes no claims.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:43:41.040)
No, I'm for competing governments on different geographic areas.
Lex Fridman (2:43:45.240)
That's fine.
Lex Fridman (2:43:46.240)
Why does it have to be over geographic?
Lex Fridman (2:43:47.600)
Okay, let me...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:43:48.600)
It's really crucial that it's on different...
Lex Fridman (2:43:50.780)
So you don't have two judges in Galt's Gulch, you have one.
Lex Fridman (2:43:55.960)
And there's a reason why.
Lex Fridman (2:43:56.960)
There's one authority.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:43:57.960)
There's one system of laws in Galt's Gulch that all the people under the Gulch abide
Lex Fridman (2:44:04.480)
by.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:44:05.480)
There's one.
Lex Fridman (2:44:06.480)
There's two because they're in America.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:44:07.480)
No, they're not.
Lex Fridman (2:44:08.480)
The whole point is they're not, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:44:09.480)
They're not in America, they're in Colorado.
Lex Fridman (2:44:10.480)
I know, but the whole point of the novel is they've left America.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:44:14.040)
They haven't left America.
Lex Fridman (2:44:15.040)
They've hid themselves.
Lex Fridman (2:44:16.080)
So they're not under the authority of the Americans.
Lex Fridman (2:44:17.680)
But they are.
Lex Fridman (2:44:18.680)
Don't you get it?
Lex Fridman (2:44:19.680)
But they're hidden.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:44:20.680)
They're supposed to be...
Lex Fridman (2:44:21.680)
Hold on.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:44:22.680)
The point is that they're hidden so they're not under the...
Lex Fridman (2:44:23.680)
No, no, no.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:44:24.680)
If the three of us hide, we're still under the authority of Washington.
Lex Fridman (2:44:29.360)
Not if they don't know that we exist.
Lex Fridman (2:44:30.360)
But this is why they haven't established a state, and it's not a government, and it's
Lex Fridman (2:44:33.980)
not in that sense an example of really the way we form societies.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:44:43.000)
It is a private club that is hidden away from everybody else.
Lex Fridman (2:44:46.720)
Fine.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:44:47.720)
I'm fine with that.
Lex Fridman (2:44:48.720)
What happens if an American kills a Canadian in Mexico?
Lex Fridman (2:44:52.020)
What happens in America, it depends.
Lex Fridman (2:44:54.280)
Depends on the nature of the governments of the three places, right?
Lex Fridman (2:44:56.920)
But usually what happens in most of human history is that America will launch a war
Lex Fridman (2:45:02.000)
either against Mexico or Canada.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:45:04.040)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (2:45:05.040)
First of all...
Lex Fridman (2:45:06.040)
So usually violence results in much more violence.
Lex Fridman (2:45:08.960)
Anarchy is just a system that legalizes violence.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:45:11.520)
That's all it does.
Lex Fridman (2:45:12.520)
And in international affairs, that's the reality.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:45:14.600)
The reality is that the way you resolve disputes that are major disputes is through violence.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:45:19.400)
Ayn Rand said, the definition of a government is an agency that has a monopoly of force
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:45:25.560)
in a geographical area.
Lex Fridman (2:45:27.160)
So you can't complain that anarchism is legalizing violence when the definition of government,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:45:33.280)
according to Rand, is legalized violence.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:45:35.280)
No, but because you're taking the definition of violence the way she defines it, right,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:45:40.480)
in this context.
Lex Fridman (2:45:41.480)
A, she talks about retaliatory force only.
Lex Fridman (2:45:43.680)
Has that ever happened?
Lex Fridman (2:45:45.880)
That's not the point.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:45:46.880)
That is the point.
Lex Fridman (2:45:47.880)
Before there was Aristotle.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:45:48.880)
Before there was an America, there was an America.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:45:51.200)
The fact that something has never existed means that it will never exist before.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:45:54.700)
The fact that the ideas haven't been developed to make something exist means that it will
Lex Fridman (2:45:58.880)
never exist before.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:46:00.640)
You know, we're young.
Lex Fridman (2:46:01.640)
Human race is a young race.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:46:03.260)
The ideas of freedom are very young.
Lex Fridman (2:46:05.460)
The ideas of the enlightenment are just 250 years old.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:46:08.240)
The idea that you can't create the kind of government Ayn Rand talked about, I talk about,
Lex Fridman (2:46:13.280)
that it's never been before means it will never happen again.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:46:16.060)
That's a silly argument.
Lex Fridman (2:46:17.060)
It's not a silly argument.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:46:18.060)
You're being a Platonist.
Lex Fridman (2:46:19.060)
No, not at all.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:46:20.060)
I'll explain to you how you're being exactly a Platonist.
Lex Fridman (2:46:22.400)
So if I was sitting in 1750 arguing with Thomas Jefferson, he was telling me what kind of
Lex Fridman (2:46:26.520)
state he was going to create, and I said, is a state like this ever being created?
Lex Fridman (2:46:30.320)
And he said, no.
Lex Fridman (2:46:31.320)
Was I being a Platonist?
Lex Fridman (2:46:32.320)
Of course not.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:46:33.320)
No, you're being a Platonist.
Lex Fridman (2:46:34.320)
You know, things change.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:46:35.320)
You're being a Platonist now.
Lex Fridman (2:46:36.320)
Here's why you're being a Platonist now.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:46:37.620)
Because one of the things that Aristotle believed in, one of the things that Ayn Rand in other
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:46:41.940)
contexts believed in, the cover of her book, The Philosophy Who Needs It, is, I think it's
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:46:48.240)
the Sistine Chapel, the cover, or wherever it is.
Lex Fridman (2:46:50.560)
It's Aristotle and Plato walking.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:46:52.520)
No, it's not.
Lex Fridman (2:46:53.520)
Yeah, but...
Lex Fridman (2:46:54.520)
What's that painting?
Lex Fridman (2:46:55.520)
I forgot what it is.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:46:56.520)
It's the School of Athens.
Lex Fridman (2:46:57.520)
School of Athens.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:46:58.520)
Thank you.
Lex Fridman (2:46:59.520)
It's the Raphael.
Lex Fridman (2:47:00.520)
So Plato's pointing toward the heavens while they're talking, and Aristotle's pointing
Lex Fridman (2:47:03.960)
to the earth.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:47:04.960)
Reality.
Lex Fridman (2:47:05.960)
Reality.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:47:06.960)
Absolutely.
Lex Fridman (2:47:07.960)
So if you want, there's two approaches.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:47:09.380)
There's the Descartes, Cartesian approach, which is I sit in my armchair and I deduce
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:47:14.600)
all of reality, or if I want to study the nature of man, if I want to study the nature
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:47:19.680)
of dogs, if I want to study the nature of the sun, I have to look around.
Lex Fridman (2:47:23.240)
I have to open my eyes.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:47:24.240)
I have to look at data.
Lex Fridman (2:47:26.220)
It's very difficult.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:47:27.480)
You know, when Rand was on Donahue, he asked her about, aren't you impressed with the order
Lex Fridman (2:47:32.240)
in the universe?
Lex Fridman (2:47:33.240)
And she goes, oh, now you have to give me a moment.
Lex Fridman (2:47:35.920)
And the point she made, which was very hard for many people to grasp, it's hard for me
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:47:39.360)
to grasp, is one's concept of order comes from the universe.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:47:45.140)
You can't have a disorderly universe because order means describing that which exists and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:47:51.020)
which has existed.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:47:52.400)
Now, if you are looking at governments throughout history that have always existed, and when
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:47:58.780)
you were on Lex, you said, what I'm talking about has never existed.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:48:04.440)
To say that this, therefore, that that has a possibility of working in reality, I think
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:48:10.580)
is certainly not a point in that favor, number one.
Lex Fridman (2:48:13.500)
And number two, Jefferson was a fraud.
Lex Fridman (2:48:16.420)
What Jefferson argued how America would look did not come true.
Lex Fridman (2:48:21.360)
Jefferson's concerns about the Constitution were accurate.
Lex Fridman (2:48:24.880)
And the fact is the federal government did become centralized, did become a civil war.
Lex Fridman (2:48:29.940)
So if you told Mr. Jefferson the government you're positing can't work, you would have
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:48:34.420)
been correct.
Lex Fridman (2:48:36.700)
That's not what I'm saying.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:48:37.700)
It's not the issue of can it work or not.
Lex Fridman (2:48:39.860)
It's the issue of can something exist that hasn't existed in the past?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:48:45.140)
It's a silly argument.
Lex Fridman (2:48:46.260)
Now, we can argue about the fact of reality, whether such a thing can exist.
Lex Fridman (2:48:50.060)
But to say it hasn't existed in the past is not an argument about whether it can exist
Lex Fridman (2:48:53.940)
in the future.
Lex Fridman (2:48:54.940)
But that's the argument you made.
Lex Fridman (2:48:55.940)
No, no, you're talking about history and now you're dancing around it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:48:58.380)
No, I'm not.
Lex Fridman (2:48:59.380)
Sure.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:49:00.380)
I'm saying that something different happened in the founding of America.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:49:04.020)
It might not have been perfect, might not have been ideal, it might have been some people
Lex Fridman (2:49:07.360)
even think it was bad, right?
Lex Fridman (2:49:08.360)
Sure, it was different.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:49:09.360)
Something different happened.
Lex Fridman (2:49:10.360)
Sure.
Lex Fridman (2:49:11.360)
And you could have said 20 years before and said, well, that's never happened before,
Lex Fridman (2:49:14.140)
so it can't happen in the future.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:49:15.780)
That is a bad argument.
Lex Fridman (2:49:17.740)
It's not a good argument.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:49:18.740)
Irrelevant.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:49:19.740)
No, but you're making the argument that just because something hasn't happened before,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:49:24.420)
that's certainly not a point to say it's likely to happen or possible.
Lex Fridman (2:49:27.500)
No.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:49:28.500)
I'm saying, first of all, I agree that everything we know about what's possible or what's not
Lex Fridman (2:49:34.460)
possible has to be from reality.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:49:36.660)
That we agree completely.
Lex Fridman (2:49:37.660)
I think anarchists completely evade that point.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:49:40.500)
I think you guys live in a world of mythology, of abstraction, of Descartes, to imagine the
Lex Fridman (2:49:48.660)
kind of anarchy that David Friedman or Rothbard describe.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:49:52.460)
It's complete fiction and it's complete mysticism.
Lex Fridman (2:49:55.460)
Okay, let me ask just a few dumb questions.
Lex Fridman (2:49:59.700)
So first of all, what do we do with violence in terms of just natural emergence of violence
Lex Fridman (2:50:06.380)
in human societies?
Lex Fridman (2:50:08.180)
So the idea that anarchism proposes is that we would, as the community grows, there may
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:50:15.540)
be violence and then we together form collectives that sort of fund mechanisms that resist that
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:50:21.500)
violence.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:50:22.500)
I mean, I'd love to sort of talk about violence because that seems to be the core thing.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:50:28.740)
That's the difference between the state that was definitionally, I guess, is the thing
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:50:33.820)
that has a monopoly on violence or controls violence in such a way that you don't have
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:50:39.540)
to worry about it.
Lex Fridman (2:50:40.540)
And then the anarchism, I don't know, I'm using bad words.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:50:44.700)
Your definition is accurate, but the point is that being definition of the state versus
Lex Fridman (2:50:49.580)
how states act in reality is just absurd, yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:50:54.020)
And then the idea that anarchism will be is that it's more kind of a market of defenses
Lex Fridman (2:50:59.860)
against violence.
Lex Fridman (2:51:01.360)
So you have like security companies and then you hire different ones that are more competent.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:51:06.500)
You have things being made affordable, you have more accessibility to security, you have
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:51:12.060)
accountability when people misuse their power, and you have more layers of security than
Lex Fridman (2:51:19.120)
having a government monopoly.
Lex Fridman (2:51:20.980)
What every objectivist understand, and they don't deny this, this is something they talk
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:51:25.300)
about constantly, is anytime you have a government monopoly, it's going to have enormous distortions
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:51:31.980)
as a consequence.
Lex Fridman (2:51:32.980)
It's going to be expensive.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:51:34.300)
It's going to be ineffective.
Lex Fridman (2:51:35.300)
And when you're talking about ineffectiveness in markets, that's not just, you know, like
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:51:39.500)
the cup sucks.
Lex Fridman (2:51:40.500)
It often means mass death.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:51:42.240)
It often means persecution.
Lex Fridman (2:51:44.220)
So this is something that anarchism, if not entirely prevents, certainly mitigates enormously.
Lex Fridman (2:51:50.820)
So can I just, as a thought experiment, say it was very easy to immigrate to another country,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:51:55.380)
like where you could just move about from government to government, would that alleviate
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:52:00.080)
most of the problems that you have towards the state, which is like people being free
Lex Fridman (2:52:04.740)
to choose which government they operate under?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:52:07.660)
Wouldn't that essentially be...
Lex Fridman (2:52:08.660)
Last scam, yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:52:09.820)
So like what is, I'm trying to understand why governments aren't already the thing that's
Lex Fridman (2:52:16.660)
the goal of anarchism.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:52:18.380)
The kind of collectives that emerge under anarchism seems to be what government...
Lex Fridman (2:52:23.100)
You're equating two terms.
Lex Fridman (2:52:24.580)
So there's something called like private governance and there's government.
Lex Fridman (2:52:28.300)
So for example, if I go to Yaron's house and he has a rule, take off your shoes, become
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:52:34.180)
your house, if you want to really be kind of silly about it, you could say he's the
Lex Fridman (2:52:39.300)
governor.
Lex Fridman (2:52:40.300)
But it's really nonsensical to say that.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:52:43.300)
If you go to Macy's, right, if you want to return your sweater, Macy's rules are right
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:52:48.420)
up there.
Lex Fridman (2:52:49.420)
You have seven days.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:52:50.420)
If you don't have a receipt, you're going to get store credit.
Lex Fridman (2:52:52.580)
If you do have a receipt, you get a refund.
Lex Fridman (2:52:54.460)
So every organization, every bar, every nightclub, your house has rules of governments.
Lex Fridman (2:53:00.140)
This is...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:53:01.140)
It's often they're unspoken.
Lex Fridman (2:53:02.140)
This is unavoidable.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:53:03.140)
No one in America by law has to pay a tip, but it's just customary.
Lex Fridman (2:53:09.460)
You go at the waiter, you give them 15, 20%, so on and so forth.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:53:13.180)
Now what anarchism does is it says, okay, security is something that is of crucial,
Lex Fridman (2:53:20.940)
essential human need.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:53:22.740)
We all need to be safe in our property, safe in our purpose.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:53:26.420)
The organization that by far is the biggest violator of this and always has been, always
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:53:31.700)
will be, is the government.
Lex Fridman (2:53:33.580)
Why?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:53:34.580)
Because it's a monopoly, because it has no accountability.
Lex Fridman (2:53:37.260)
And look at the rioting last year, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:53:40.380)
If you have one agency, pretend it's not the government, pretend it's Apple.
Lex Fridman (2:53:44.540)
And Apple has in charge of security in this town.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:53:47.740)
People are rioting, people are looting.
Lex Fridman (2:53:49.780)
And Apple says, yeah, we're not going to send people into work.
Lex Fridman (2:53:52.740)
And if you try to defend yourself, we're going to put you in jail as well.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:53:56.380)
That's the problem of having a government monopoly and that's something that anarchism
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:54:00.180)
solves for.
Lex Fridman (2:54:01.180)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (2:54:02.180)
But don't you, cause you said no accountability, don't you mean to say poor accountability?
Lex Fridman (2:54:07.140)
No, I mean to say no accountability.
Lex Fridman (2:54:09.620)
But isn't that the idea of democracies?
Lex Fridman (2:54:11.740)
I'm not for democracy.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:54:13.060)
No, not for democracy, but like the system of governments that we have, there is a monopoly
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:54:18.980)
on violence, but there is a, I mean, at least in the ideal, but I think in practice as well,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:54:24.460)
there's an accountability.
Lex Fridman (2:54:25.460)
I do not think that's the case.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:54:26.460)
I know you're a critic of the police force and all those kinds of things, but the military
Lex Fridman (2:54:30.300)
is accountable to the people.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:54:31.620)
I do not agree.
Lex Fridman (2:54:32.620)
The police force is accountable to the people.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:54:33.620)
I do not agree.
Lex Fridman (2:54:35.180)
Perhaps imperfectly, but you're saying not at all.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:54:37.900)
Not at all.
Lex Fridman (2:54:38.900)
And we've seen many examples of police officers doing horrific things on video and they don't
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:54:44.220)
even lose their pensions.
Lex Fridman (2:54:45.220)
But there's a lot of amazing police officers or no?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:54:47.700)
I mean, no, there are not.
Lex Fridman (2:54:49.860)
So you're saying by nature, police is like a fundamentally flawed system.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:54:53.780)
No, by nature, government monopoly on police is a fundamentally irredeemable system.
Lex Fridman (2:54:59.140)
Talk about private security.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:55:01.000)
If I have a private security firm, you could have that under a government.
Lex Fridman (2:55:05.300)
And as a result of my private security, my person who I'm bodyguarding gets shot.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:55:10.880)
That's going to be very bad for my company as compared to competing companies.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:55:14.940)
However, when you have a government monopoly and I get people shot, what are you going
Lex Fridman (2:55:18.420)
to do?
Lex Fridman (2:55:20.800)
So the problem is that all the examples are going to be within the context of an existing
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:55:25.780)
government.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:55:26.780)
The iPhone example and all these other examples of us being here, we're not an anarchy.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:55:30.300)
That is absurd.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:55:31.300)
We're under a particular system of law and the system of laws applies and we know that
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:55:35.260)
the particular system of laws applies.
Lex Fridman (2:55:37.800)
So the problem is when you have...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:55:40.380)
There are many laws that we're not going to be enforced, that we're not going to be subject
Lex Fridman (2:55:43.820)
to.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:55:44.820)
Sure.
Lex Fridman (2:55:45.820)
We know that.
Lex Fridman (2:55:46.820)
Violence related?
Lex Fridman (2:55:47.820)
No, there are lots of laws that are not going to be enforced.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:55:48.820)
Right.
Lex Fridman (2:55:49.820)
And that doesn't make this anarchy because there are the laws out there.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:55:54.300)
They could be enforced, which makes it an anarchy.
Lex Fridman (2:55:57.180)
But look, there's a number of issues here.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:56:00.140)
There's an issue of the role of force in human society.
Lex Fridman (2:56:03.300)
I got to clarify things because I think you misunderstood what I said.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:56:06.540)
I'm not saying that America is anarchist.
Lex Fridman (2:56:08.940)
What I'm saying is the three of us have an anarchist relationship between us because
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:56:11.940)
none of us have authority over the others.
Lex Fridman (2:56:13.580)
That's what I'm saying.
Lex Fridman (2:56:14.580)
But that's a bad use of the word anarchy.
Lex Fridman (2:56:16.780)
No, that's the correct use of the word anarchy.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:56:18.420)
It makes it meaningless.
Lex Fridman (2:56:19.420)
It makes it...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:56:20.420)
Every time any people get together, they have an anarchistic relationship.
Lex Fridman (2:56:23.620)
Yes.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:56:24.620)
No.
Lex Fridman (2:56:25.620)
We have a voluntary relationship.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:56:26.620)
That's what anarchism means, voluntarism.
Lex Fridman (2:56:27.620)
No.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:56:28.620)
No, it doesn't.
Lex Fridman (2:56:29.620)
It's a political system.
Lex Fridman (2:56:30.620)
You want to get a dictionary out?
Lex Fridman (2:56:31.620)
You're taking a word and it's accepted usage.
Lex Fridman (2:56:33.860)
And then you're saying, oh, no, it means...
Lex Fridman (2:56:35.860)
You mean like selfishness?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:56:36.860)
Maybe.
Lex Fridman (2:56:37.860)
And we never finished that discussion.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:56:38.860)
You're taking a word, we're taking a word that you're defining and replacing it with
Lex Fridman (2:56:44.860)
voluntary.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:56:45.860)
Now, voluntary...
Lex Fridman (2:56:46.860)
Okay, fine.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:56:47.860)
I'm not for anarchism or voluntarism.
Lex Fridman (2:56:48.860)
Fine.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:56:49.860)
Go ahead.
Lex Fridman (2:56:50.860)
But let's understand what voluntary means, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:56:51.860)
For example, going to stores and there's a certain relationship that we have with a store
Lex Fridman (2:56:55.660)
that we engage in certain voluntary transactions with that store.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:56:58.860)
Now, I believe that that works because there is a certain system of law that both the store
Lex Fridman (2:57:05.140)
and we have accepted that makes that possible.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:57:08.780)
Now, if that didn't, there are certain people who would like to walk into their store and
Lex Fridman (2:57:12.700)
just take the stuff, right?
Lex Fridman (2:57:14.580)
So there is a...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:57:16.100)
We might not, but there are certain people who might want it to go into their store.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:57:19.220)
There's a certain system of laws that regulates the relationship and that defines the property
Lex Fridman (2:57:25.460)
rights and then provides protection for the property rights.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:57:28.620)
Now, you would like all that privatized.
Lex Fridman (2:57:30.660)
That is, the store would have its police force and that would be privatized.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:57:33.820)
Now, I don't believe that force can be privatized and there are many reasons...
Lex Fridman (2:57:39.540)
And it shouldn't.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:57:41.040)
I don't think it can and I don't think...
Lex Fridman (2:57:44.340)
I think it's a...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:57:45.340)
That's an interesting distinction.
Lex Fridman (2:57:46.340)
I don't think it can because I think that it's an unstable equilibrium, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:57:50.460)
I don't think competing police forces can work.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:57:55.500)
At the end, the police force with the biggest gun always wins and always takes over and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:58:00.060)
becomes authoritarian.
Lex Fridman (2:58:01.060)
That's not true.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:58:02.060)
Look at Iran and Iraq, excuse me.
Lex Fridman (2:58:03.580)
We had the bigger guns, we didn't win.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:58:06.300)
Look at Afghanistan.
Lex Fridman (2:58:09.900)
We didn't win partially because none of that is an example of anarchy.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:58:13.100)
No, but you just said the guy with the biggest gun is gonna win.
Lex Fridman (2:58:15.540)
Yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:58:16.540)
The guy with the biggest gun is gonna win.
Lex Fridman (2:58:17.540)
We didn't win in Vietnam.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:58:18.540)
We had the bigger guns.
Lex Fridman (2:58:19.540)
But again, you're taking it outside of a context.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:58:22.300)
That was a context in which countries are fighting, not a context in which there is
Lex Fridman (2:58:27.380)
no country.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:58:28.380)
Okay.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:58:29.380)
Let's suppose you, Yaron, have a rocket launcher and there's 100 people with handguns.
Lex Fridman (2:58:32.960)
How are you gonna win?
Lex Fridman (2:58:33.960)
You have the biggest gun.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:58:35.340)
Oh, believe me, I could win.
Lex Fridman (2:58:37.660)
With one rocket launcher against 100 people?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:58:39.340)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:58:40.340)
It's just...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:58:41.340)
Well, it depends how many rockets I have in the rocket launcher and whether I'm willing
Lex Fridman (2:58:43.180)
to use them.
Lex Fridman (2:58:44.180)
But that's... so now it's democracy because there are more of them that they win.
Lex Fridman (2:58:48.420)
Look, any one of these scenarios, all it does... so let's go back to the store.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:58:55.020)
This is fascinating, by the way.
Lex Fridman (2:58:56.020)
I'm really enjoying this.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:58:57.020)
I just want to say that.
Lex Fridman (2:58:58.020)
This is great.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:58:59.020)
Because...
Lex Fridman (2:59:00.020)
I'm glad you are.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:59:01.900)
I am enjoying the pain.
Lex Fridman (2:59:03.580)
And I'm also enjoying the comments that are gonna happen.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:59:05.940)
Oh, the comments are gonna be overwhelmingly on your side.
Lex Fridman (2:59:09.460)
I don't think so.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:59:10.460)
I know that.
Lex Fridman (2:59:11.460)
I don't think so.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:59:12.460)
I don't think so.
Lex Fridman (2:59:13.460)
I'm completely dishonest.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:59:14.460)
I'm a modern day...
Lex Fridman (2:59:15.460)
What's his name?
Lex Fridman (2:59:16.460)
What's the guy who is defending communism?
Lex Fridman (2:59:17.460)
Richard Wolff.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:59:18.460)
I'm a modern day Richard Wolff.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:59:21.580)
There's a sense in which I think anarchists are evading reality in the same sense.
Lex Fridman (2:59:27.820)
So we've got this...
Lex Fridman (2:59:28.820)
Do you think I'm dishonest or delusional?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:59:31.700)
Calling someone dishonest is a really specific...
Lex Fridman (2:59:35.860)
I think you're delusional.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:59:36.860)
I think you're delusional.
Lex Fridman (2:59:37.860)
And I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt of being delusional.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:59:42.300)
That's fair.
Lex Fridman (2:59:43.300)
What is love?
Lex Fridman (2:59:44.300)
And as I said on the show, on the previous interview, I said, only smart people can be
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:59:51.980)
anarchists because it requires a certain level of abstraction of being divorced from reality
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:59:56.960)
that is hard for people who are actually connected to reality.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (2:59:59.780)
He makes a good point because I always talk about this with people on social media and
Lex Fridman (30:05.200)
and to shape it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (30:06.200)
Now in the future, well, we'll come up with machines that can figure out stuff that we
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (30:09.760)
have no clue about today.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (30:12.680)
That's only because we're so well suited to reality that can we create those machines.
Lex Fridman (30:16.080)
And I promise you, in the future, it's going to be much more what you're saying.
Lex Fridman (30:20.480)
That's how it's going to happen.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (30:21.480)
No, but the thing is, when the creatures from the future look back to the things we're saying
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (30:24.640)
now, what Aydin Rand is saying, what you're saying with certainty, do you think they'll
Lex Fridman (30:28.080)
laugh at the level of how much confusion there was, how much inaccuracy?
Lex Fridman (30:32.480)
Did you?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (30:33.480)
No.
Lex Fridman (30:34.480)
No, no.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (30:35.480)
Let me get this one.
Lex Fridman (30:36.480)
You know what they're going to do?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (30:37.480)
Yes.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (30:38.480)
They're going to either read Aristotle or read any of these great geniuses of the past.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (30:42.280)
It's like these people didn't have electricity.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (30:44.760)
They didn't have warm clothes or anything, and they're able to figure out the diameter
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (30:49.680)
of the Earth.
Lex Fridman (30:50.680)
Like the creativity to be and to get it within a few miles.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (30:55.060)
The creativity and to figure out the speed of light when you don't even have a stopwatch.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (30:59.420)
When you look back, a lot of it's nonsense, but it's like when you're talking to a kid.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (31:04.900)
They would disregard the nonsense, and when they get something right, it's awe.
Lex Fridman (31:09.280)
So it's never a numbers game, right?
Lex Fridman (31:11.320)
So it's the few that validate and justify the rest.
Lex Fridman (31:16.600)
So when you look at Aristotle, he's talking about there was one of those causes which
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (31:20.780)
is like time travel and it doesn't really make sense.
Lex Fridman (31:23.120)
But you look at the rest of this stuff or even Plato or any of these greats, it's like,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (31:26.680)
oh my, this is an amazing miracle.
Lex Fridman (31:29.160)
I wouldn't say literally miracle, I got you, everyone.
Lex Fridman (31:31.340)
But at the same time, yeah, a lot of these other people had stupid ideas.
Lex Fridman (31:34.300)
You don't care.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (31:35.300)
You care about those great, great minds and how they moved us all forward.
Lex Fridman (31:39.860)
To this day, we still study Pythagoras.
Lex Fridman (31:42.720)
And it's not even just the sciences and the math.
Lex Fridman (31:46.320)
Think about the philosophy.
Lex Fridman (31:48.560)
How much is there to learn from reading Aristotle or Plato or Socrates when you disagree with
Lex Fridman (31:52.520)
them?
Lex Fridman (31:53.520)
How many giants have there been in all of human history that have had the minds of Socrates
Lex Fridman (31:58.220)
or Plato and Aristotle?
Lex Fridman (32:00.640)
A thousand years where they look back at Plato and Aristotle and admire them?
Lex Fridman (32:04.760)
Absolutely.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (32:05.760)
Well, they find certain things that are wrong, yes, but certain things that Aristotle discovered
Lex Fridman (32:10.960)
are absolutely right and will always be right.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (32:14.240)
Certain things that Ayn Rand discovered will always be right.
Lex Fridman (32:16.680)
I think a lot of what she came up with, will some things be discovered to be wrong?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (32:21.440)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (32:22.440)
You know, that wouldn't shock me.
Lex Fridman (32:25.200)
But the genius and the truth that we know today is amazing.
Lex Fridman (32:33.100)
It's stunning to be pessimistic about us because in the future we'll know more.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (32:38.600)
Not pessimistic, but more humble.
Lex Fridman (32:40.160)
There's no reason to be humble.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (32:42.000)
I mean, I really think humility is a vice, not a virtue.
Lex Fridman (32:45.760)
What's there to be humble about?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (32:46.760)
Look at life.
Lex Fridman (32:48.520)
This is amazing.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (32:49.520)
We should be...
Lex Fridman (32:51.120)
But the word humble has different meanings.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (32:52.120)
I know.
Lex Fridman (32:53.120)
I know.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (32:54.120)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (32:55.120)
I know what it's going to get.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (32:56.120)
I mean, humility in a sense of not appreciating the genius and the ability and the success
Lex Fridman (33:07.880)
and all the stuff that we as individuals, I think, in our lives, but as a culture, as
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (33:15.240)
a movement, if you think about movement in terms of those of us who respect reason have
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (33:18.760)
achieved in spite of the odds, we should be proud of that and pride as the virtue.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (33:24.500)
Humility in the sense of, yeah, I know there's more to know.
Lex Fridman (33:27.560)
I know there's a lot more to know and in the future we'll know more.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (33:30.520)
Sure.
Lex Fridman (33:31.520)
But I don't think that's the way...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (33:32.520)
See, I take humility as the way the Christians use it, which is the other way.
Lex Fridman (33:35.820)
And I think it's a real vice.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (33:37.480)
It's don't think of yourself too much just because you can think that's no big deal or
Lex Fridman (33:41.880)
just because you can create this stuff.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (33:43.280)
It is a big deal.
Lex Fridman (33:44.920)
Your achievements are a big deal and you should take credit for them.
Lex Fridman (33:47.960)
So be careful with the word humility because the real meaning is the Christian meaning,
Lex Fridman (33:52.280)
which is a very, very bad meaning.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (33:54.800)
Hold on.
Lex Fridman (33:55.800)
Let me be a little pedantic because there's no such thing as real meaning, right?
Lex Fridman (33:58.160)
So there's different meanings.
Lex Fridman (33:59.160)
Okay.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (34:00.160)
Hold on.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (34:01.160)
This is semantics, but here's another real meaning that you're not going to disagree
Lex Fridman (34:03.480)
with, which is the smartest person on earth is ignorant of 99.9% of knowledge, right?
Lex Fridman (34:09.440)
So if I meet someone who is less intelligent than me and less informed than me, it is still
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (34:14.880)
certain that this person has things to teach me.
Lex Fridman (34:18.480)
If I go to a mechanic and maybe this guy's dumb as rocks.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (34:22.720)
I don't know anything about cars.
Lex Fridman (34:24.440)
What he tells me about that car is good.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (34:26.040)
I could take it to the bank.
Lex Fridman (34:27.320)
He's going to be in a position to inform me.
Lex Fridman (34:29.520)
So one of the reasons humility is extremely important is very often you have people and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (34:34.600)
you see this very much in academia who think you know exactly where I'm going around who
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (34:39.360)
think they're know what else and they think, oh, I have this degree.
Lex Fridman (34:43.180)
You're a layman.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (34:44.180)
You've never been formally educated.
Lex Fridman (34:46.000)
Therefore not only you dumb and uneducated and you're wrong.
Lex Fridman (34:49.680)
And it's like this person might be have won a great example of this.
Lex Fridman (34:53.480)
And this is an example you might not like is a lot of times you have these native populations
Lex Fridman (34:58.640)
and they'll have a better understanding of the animals around them, the plants, the fruits,
Lex Fridman (35:02.680)
whatever.
Lex Fridman (35:03.680)
And you'd have these scientists and be like, oh, they're talking about this monster in
Lex Fridman (35:06.200)
the woods.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (35:07.200)
Yeah, whatever.
Lex Fridman (35:08.200)
This giant, this giant ape.
Lex Fridman (35:09.200)
But it was real.
Lex Fridman (35:10.200)
It was the gorilla.
Lex Fridman (35:11.200)
But you know, you dismiss them because, oh, these are stupid, ignorant, whatever people
Lex Fridman (35:14.080)
that's kind of changed to some extent.
Lex Fridman (35:15.540)
But that is an aspect of humility that I think behooves especially highly intelligent people
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (35:20.940)
because there is such a presumption to be dismissive of people who you regard as less
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (35:25.200)
than.
Lex Fridman (35:26.200)
But they're often right.
Lex Fridman (35:27.200)
So I agree.
Lex Fridman (35:28.200)
I agree with all of the concrete examples.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (35:31.480)
I just think we should come up with a better word than humility.
Lex Fridman (35:34.020)
And I don't have one because I'm not I'm not a woodsmith.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (35:36.200)
I'm not.
Lex Fridman (35:37.200)
This is not my strength.
Lex Fridman (35:38.820)
But humility, humility is a is a word from the Christian ethics.
Lex Fridman (35:43.780)
And it means something very specific in the field of ethics.
Lex Fridman (35:47.720)
And it means the opposite of of what I think virtue requires.
Lex Fridman (35:54.200)
It's demeaning.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (35:55.200)
It's to put you down.
Lex Fridman (35:56.520)
It's to it's to it's to resist pride.
Lex Fridman (36:00.240)
And I think pride is a very important thing.
Lex Fridman (36:01.800)
I don't know.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (36:02.800)
You're on.
Lex Fridman (36:03.800)
But again, you have to define your terms properly.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (36:04.800)
Hating myself has has been quite useful for me as well, but that's because you're Russian
Lex Fridman (36:09.560)
and Jewish.
Lex Fridman (36:10.560)
So by what this changes, you know, this is this is what happens, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (36:17.000)
We're brought up to, you know, to to feel exactly that way in a good Russian boy.
Lex Fridman (36:22.800)
So we got him.
Lex Fridman (36:23.800)
Oh, my God.
Lex Fridman (36:24.800)
What is this?
Lex Fridman (36:25.800)
What is this?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (36:26.800)
Gimmat again.
Lex Fridman (36:27.800)
What is this?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (36:28.800)
Gimmat again.
Lex Fridman (36:29.800)
What is that?
Lex Fridman (36:30.800)
What it says?
Lex Fridman (36:31.800)
Yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (36:32.800)
Gimmat again.
Lex Fridman (36:33.800)
I can't.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (36:34.800)
I can't.
Lex Fridman (36:35.800)
I'm blind.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (36:36.800)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (36:37.800)
But as long as you're good.
Lex Fridman (36:38.800)
But is it kosher?
Lex Fridman (36:39.800)
Yes, it is.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (36:40.800)
Check if it's kosher.
Lex Fridman (36:43.460)
This is Ukrainian, my friend.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (36:44.720)
Oh, oh, my God.
Lex Fridman (36:46.440)
That is a sin.
Lex Fridman (36:47.440)
How dare you?
Lex Fridman (36:48.440)
That is really simple.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (36:49.440)
You know, me and Sinai were born in the same town.
Lex Fridman (36:50.920)
I'm kidding.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (36:51.920)
My dad is Ukrainian.
Lex Fridman (36:52.920)
Don't get mad.
Lex Fridman (36:53.920)
So I don't think I don't think self self.
Lex Fridman (36:58.960)
What did you how did you define it?
Lex Fridman (37:00.960)
Self hate?
Lex Fridman (37:01.960)
Yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (37:02.960)
I think self hate is quite destructive.
Lex Fridman (37:05.960)
Speak for yourself.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (37:06.960)
I think that humility is quite destructive.
Lex Fridman (37:10.400)
Humility in the sense of I'm no big deal.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (37:12.960)
No.
Lex Fridman (37:13.960)
I mean, if you've achieved something in life, you are a big deal.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (37:15.860)
You are a big deal because, you know, look, you got the two of us to fly into town just
Lex Fridman (37:20.560)
to sit down here and have a conversation with you.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (37:22.400)
You're a big deal.
Lex Fridman (37:23.400)
That says more about you than me.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (37:24.840)
We're just desperate.
Lex Fridman (37:25.840)
We're lonely and depraved.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (37:26.840)
I'm not lonely.
Lex Fridman (37:27.840)
I might be desperate.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (37:33.720)
I'm starting to question your ability to reason with the decisions you're making on the on
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (37:40.480)
the aspect of and I should mention that The Idiot by Dostoevsky is one of my favorite
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (37:44.520)
novels and there is a Christian ethic that runs through that.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (37:47.800)
I mean, because because, yeah, I mean, particularly but I hate to bring this up, but particularly
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (37:52.860)
Russians and particularly Russian Jews and particularly Eastern European Jews are incredibly
Lex Fridman (37:57.880)
Christian.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (37:58.880)
There's a there's a there's a real Christian theme in in Judaism that's that's about guilt.
Lex Fridman (38:06.480)
Guilt is not there's no guilt in Judaism.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (38:09.600)
King David doesn't feel any guilt.
Lex Fridman (38:11.200)
Solomon doesn't.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (38:12.200)
There's no guilt in the in the Old Testament.
Lex Fridman (38:13.960)
Plenty of guilt.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (38:15.300)
Once Christianity has an impact on Judaism, we're raised to feel this way.
Lex Fridman (38:18.760)
We're raised to be humble.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (38:20.160)
We're raised not to feel special.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (38:22.000)
We were raised to think we're no big deal and to and our mothers put us down and and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (38:27.720)
use that against us and try to inflict guilt on us.
Lex Fridman (38:31.040)
They raise us up and then they knock us down.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (38:33.480)
It's a mechanism, but it's it's a cultural mechanism.
Lex Fridman (38:36.640)
And I think it's very destructive to self esteem and to happiness.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (38:39.240)
Let me and I'll give you a great he's absolutely right with what he just said.
Lex Fridman (38:42.120)
I disagree.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (38:43.120)
Oh, yeah.
Lex Fridman (38:44.120)
Why?
Lex Fridman (38:45.120)
Why is he right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (38:46.120)
Because like my family, for example, it still doesn't really understand how I could pay
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (38:48.700)
the rent because I don't go into an office.
Lex Fridman (38:50.460)
And like when I started out trying to be a writer, the immediate reaction isn't which
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (38:55.120)
is a lot of times I talk to kids, right, and they have these aspirations.
Lex Fridman (38:58.840)
And I'll tell them, go for it while you're young.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (39:02.040)
If you fail, you'll go to your grave with like I tried my best.
Lex Fridman (39:05.880)
I didn't make it happen.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (39:07.280)
Whereas if you don't try and never achieve, you are going to feel horrible for the rest
Lex Fridman (39:11.000)
of your life.
Lex Fridman (39:12.000)
And this is the example I use all the time.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (39:13.400)
I bring up many times I go go to any bookstore and look at all those terrible, terrible books
Lex Fridman (39:19.320)
on the shelves that you wonder, how is this a book that could be you?
Lex Fridman (39:22.280)
You could be that crappy writer.
Lex Fridman (39:23.820)
But the thing is, in that culture that Yaron was talking about, you tell your family, I'm
Lex Fridman (39:27.600)
going to be a writer.
Lex Fridman (39:28.600)
Who do you think you are?
Lex Fridman (39:29.600)
Why do you think you're going to be?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (39:30.600)
You're no Stephen King.
Lex Fridman (39:31.600)
And it's like, why do you have to be Stephen King?
Lex Fridman (39:33.660)
Why can't you just be a mediocre, crappy writer making the rent?
Lex Fridman (39:37.360)
The best that you can be.
Lex Fridman (39:38.560)
But even that is an amazing accomplishment.
Lex Fridman (39:39.840)
Yeah, absolutely.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (39:40.840)
If I don't have to go to an office and I write books that not that many people read, this
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (39:44.000)
is the story of my life, at the same time, I do have pride because I made this happen.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (39:49.080)
You can be the best version.
Lex Fridman (39:50.080)
I mean, this is a cliche, but you can be the best version of yourself.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (39:53.280)
It's not a competition.
Lex Fridman (39:54.700)
And yet our Jewish mothers, that's not what they aspire us to be.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (39:59.280)
They aspire us to be the best version of what they imagine, what the culture imagines, what
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:00:03.220)
they talk about a lot of people who buy into the corporate media narrative and how they're
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:00:07.460)
dumb.
Lex Fridman (3:00:08.460)
I go, it's easier to train smart people than dumb people.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:00:10.780)
It's easier to convince smart people of the systemic that's divorced from reality than
Lex Fridman (3:00:13.980)
somebody's dumb.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:00:14.980)
You can deal in abstracts.
Lex Fridman (3:00:15.980)
I don't have to deal with the concretes that actually happen.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:00:20.380)
This is an example I gave debating another anarchist.
Lex Fridman (3:00:23.420)
So...
Lex Fridman (3:00:24.420)
Who was it?
Lex Fridman (3:00:25.420)
She must have sucked.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:00:26.420)
Well, you were the best.
Lex Fridman (3:00:27.420)
They were Hoppe fans.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:00:28.420)
Oh, okay.
Lex Fridman (3:00:29.420)
Hoppe, okay.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:00:30.420)
Hoppe fans.
Lex Fridman (3:00:31.420)
Not one of my least like...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:00:33.340)
The people I like least in the world out there.
Lex Fridman (3:00:37.500)
You like them better than the communists, don't you?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:00:40.980)
Barely.
Lex Fridman (3:00:41.980)
Oh, come on.
Lex Fridman (3:00:42.980)
Seriously?
Lex Fridman (3:00:43.980)
Yes.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:00:44.980)
Because I think it leads to the same place.
Lex Fridman (3:00:45.980)
I really do.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:00:46.980)
I think it leads to gulags.
Lex Fridman (3:00:47.980)
Fine.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:00:48.980)
I think anarchy leads to gulags.
Lex Fridman (3:00:49.980)
And I think Hoppe's view of anarchy definitely leads to gulags.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:00:50.980)
I'll grant you just for the sake of argument that it leads to gulags.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:00:53.140)
However, surely you concede that they are against gulags whereas the commies have no
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:00:58.220)
problem with it.
Lex Fridman (3:00:59.220)
And that's a big...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:01:00.220)
I think some do.
Lex Fridman (3:01:01.220)
I'm not sure people like Hoppe do.
Lex Fridman (3:01:03.220)
Because if you read some of his stuff, one wonders, right?
Lex Fridman (3:01:07.980)
But he wants monarchies and he wants...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:01:09.860)
No, he said monarchies are preferable to democracy, which is true.
Lex Fridman (3:01:13.300)
No, it's not.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:01:14.300)
Oh, God.
Lex Fridman (3:01:15.300)
I mean, one of the problems with an anarchist is...
Lex Fridman (3:01:17.060)
What judge?
Lex Fridman (3:01:18.060)
That's the monarch.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:01:19.060)
One of the problems...
Lex Fridman (3:01:20.060)
Yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:01:21.060)
One judge, one authority.
Lex Fridman (3:01:22.060)
This is why I think...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:01:23.060)
Yeah, the monarch.
Lex Fridman (3:01:24.060)
That's why I think...
Lex Fridman (3:01:25.060)
So you're a Hoppean.
Lex Fridman (3:01:26.060)
I don't think it's authoritarians.
Lex Fridman (3:01:27.060)
So Yaron Brooks is a Hoppean.
Lex Fridman (3:01:28.060)
Get in the chopper.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:01:29.060)
No, I'm not a Hoppean.
Lex Fridman (3:01:30.060)
I don't want one judge.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:01:31.060)
I don't want an arbitrary judge.
Lex Fridman (3:01:33.100)
I want an objective judge.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:01:34.780)
There's an essay by John Hasnas, I think his name, I'm gonna bungle it.
Lex Fridman (3:01:37.940)
It's gonna be in my upcoming book on anarchism.
Lex Fridman (3:01:40.180)
And he just discusses, and it's a very long, complicated, technical issue, that the idea
Lex Fridman (3:01:44.660)
of objective law is incoherent.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:01:46.700)
Well, yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:01:47.700)
I mean, that's why we disagree so much.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:01:49.980)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:01:50.980)
Because I think objective law is the only coherent system.
Lex Fridman (3:01:53.200)
Do you disagree that we, in effect, have competing systems of law under America?
Lex Fridman (3:02:01.740)
Meaning there's different ideologies.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:02:04.020)
You have the Sotomayor ideology versus the Scalia ideology, and that effectively.
Lex Fridman (3:02:08.220)
And the point being, when you and I file a lawsuit, it completely depends on who the
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:02:12.780)
judge is.
Lex Fridman (3:02:13.780)
Yes.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:02:14.780)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (3:02:15.780)
And in theory, I don't think the system works this way, but in theory, the way the system
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:02:18.180)
would work is that on new issues, there is some competition.
Lex Fridman (3:02:23.380)
Syria wasn't talking to you.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:02:26.700)
Technology.
Lex Fridman (3:02:27.700)
Capitalism.
Lex Fridman (3:02:28.700)
So in theory, the system works, and this works, I think, with competing states, but also with
Lex Fridman (3:02:34.020)
competing legal views, particularly on a new issue.
Lex Fridman (3:02:38.460)
There's some, this is how common law worked, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:02:42.220)
There's some evolution of it, and at some point, that gets codified into the law.
Lex Fridman (3:02:46.820)
And it gets objectified in that sense.
Lex Fridman (3:02:48.540)
That is, there's some conclusion that people come to.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:02:51.640)
This is the role, in theory, of a legislature, and the legislature would be nice if it was
Lex Fridman (3:02:56.500)
composed of people who had some idea of legal philosophy.
Lex Fridman (3:03:01.420)
And it gets codified.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:03:03.620)
Because these things are complex, and at some point, it goes through all the arguments,
Lex Fridman (3:03:08.140)
and then a certain truth emerges, or a certain truth is identified, and that's what gets
Lex Fridman (3:03:12.480)
encoded in law.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:03:14.020)
That's what the purpose of a legislature is.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:03:15.900)
Now, if you have competing mechanisms that don't converge on one authority, because there's
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:03:22.060)
no one authority, there are multiple authorities.
Lex Fridman (3:03:24.420)
That is, in a sense, there are multiple governments or multiple systems of enforcement, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:03:30.020)
Then you get not just something emerging out of it, what you get is competing legal systems.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:03:38.060)
Competing legal systems that now have competing mechanisms of enforcement, competing police
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:03:44.660)
forces, competing militaries, however we want to define it.
Lex Fridman (3:03:47.980)
And now there's no mechanism to resolve that.
Lex Fridman (3:03:50.500)
Now, yes, we could negotiate, and there's goodwill, and so on, right?
Lex Fridman (3:03:55.180)
Yeah, there you go.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:03:56.180)
No, no.
Lex Fridman (3:03:57.180)
But now we're talking about the law, what each view, each position views as true and
Lex Fridman (3:04:04.420)
right, right?
Lex Fridman (3:04:06.180)
And it might involve, for example, it might involve the fact that the legal system has
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:04:11.100)
come to the conclusion that it's okay for children to have sex with adults, and this
Lex Fridman (3:04:15.180)
legal system thinks that is evil and wrong, right?
Lex Fridman (3:04:19.540)
And something has happened between the two, right?
Lex Fridman (3:04:23.860)
How do you resolve that conflict?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:04:24.860)
There is no resolution.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:04:25.860)
If this adult wants to have sex with this child, this legal system thinks it's okay,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:04:30.420)
that legal system thinks it's...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:04:31.740)
The only way to resolve that system is through one system imposing itself on the other.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:04:35.620)
An example of countries is exactly that.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:04:37.600)
When you had monarchies, when you had the little states all over the place, the way
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:04:41.940)
any kind of dispute was resolved when there were issues of territorial disputes, or issues
Lex Fridman (3:04:46.540)
of marriage, or issues of different legal interpretations about... was war.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:04:51.220)
No, it wasn't.
Lex Fridman (3:04:52.220)
Yes, it was.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:04:53.220)
It wasn't marriage.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:04:54.220)
A lot of times people would marry a princess from another country just to feast.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:04:56.260)
Sure.
Lex Fridman (3:04:57.260)
Forced marriages, which was not very pleasant.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:04:58.700)
I'd rather sacrifice one princess than a queen.
Lex Fridman (3:05:00.900)
No, I don't want to sacrifice anybody.
Lex Fridman (3:05:02.940)
And in addition, I don't want to sacrifice anybody.
Lex Fridman (3:05:03.940)
I want to sacrifice the royals.
Lex Fridman (3:05:04.940)
And in addition...
Lex Fridman (3:05:05.940)
Well, I don't want royals.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:05:06.940)
I don't want royals.
Lex Fridman (3:05:07.940)
Well, that's what sacrificing means.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:05:08.940)
I think royals are pretty disgusting.
Lex Fridman (3:05:09.940)
Agreed.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:05:10.940)
Let's get the baskets.
Lex Fridman (3:05:11.940)
And then on top of that, look, those periods in history are filled with violence, much
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:05:16.260)
more violence than we have today, much more bloody than they are today, far less freedom
Lex Fridman (3:05:20.740)
than we have today in terms of individual freedom.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:05:21.740)
After the 20th...
Lex Fridman (3:05:22.740)
You're comparing this to 20th century.
Lex Fridman (3:05:25.740)
Yes, I'm comparing a monarchy, right?
Lex Fridman (3:05:30.340)
You said that's preferable to democracy, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:05:32.660)
Yes, I did.
Lex Fridman (3:05:33.660)
I'm comparing...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:05:34.660)
I'm saying Hoppe said that.
Lex Fridman (3:05:35.660)
I'm not saying I'm saying that.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:05:36.660)
I'm saying Hoppe said that.
Lex Fridman (3:05:37.660)
To some extent.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:05:38.660)
To some extent.
Lex Fridman (3:05:39.660)
But I'm not going to die in that hell.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:05:40.660)
Hoppe said that.
Lex Fridman (3:05:41.660)
And I think it's ridiculous.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:05:42.660)
These kings and queens were fighting constantly.
Lex Fridman (3:05:43.660)
I mean, the wars back then were violent in a way that...
Lex Fridman (3:05:47.660)
Unlike now?
Lex Fridman (3:05:48.660)
No, much more violent than now.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:05:49.660)
If you look at the actual percentage of people killed in war...
Lex Fridman (3:05:51.660)
The Steven Pinker book.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:05:52.660)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:05:53.660)
If you look at the percentage of people...
Lex Fridman (3:05:54.660)
And not just that.
Lex Fridman (3:05:55.660)
You can look at the other stats.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:05:56.660)
The percentage of people killed in war back then were far greater than the percentage
Lex Fridman (3:05:59.100)
of people even during World War II and World War I.
Lex Fridman (3:06:01.740)
So anarchy, and you know, David Friedman loves to quote the sagas of Iceland about how wonderful
Lex Fridman (3:06:07.860)
the anarchy...
Lex Fridman (3:06:08.860)
And I mean, it's funny because a lot of people who read David Friedman never read the sagas.
Lex Fridman (3:06:13.180)
It's worth reading.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:06:14.380)
The sagas of the Iceland are filled with violence.
Lex Fridman (3:06:19.300)
Constant violence.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:06:20.300)
Constantly people killing each other over, you know, I stole your chickens and you slept
Lex Fridman (3:06:25.380)
with my wife.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:06:27.140)
The only way to resolve disputes, the only way to resolve disputes was violence.
Lex Fridman (3:06:31.300)
There was no authority, there was no mechanism to resolve these disputes.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:06:34.820)
There was a council, but the council couldn't enforce anything, so in the end of the day
Lex Fridman (3:06:38.100)
we just resolved to violence.
Lex Fridman (3:06:39.840)
And this is legalized because there is no mechanism by which to make the violence illegal.
Lex Fridman (3:06:46.620)
So all anarchy is, is legalized violence constrained for a while and up until people stop that
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:06:58.340)
constraint by, you know, arrangements between the security organizations.
Lex Fridman (3:07:04.100)
But the security organizations have us by the balls, to put it figuratively, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:07:08.660)
They really do.
Lex Fridman (3:07:09.660)
Sure.
Lex Fridman (3:07:10.660)
Unlike the state?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:07:11.660)
Oh, the state today has it, but I would much rather live in this state, much rather live
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:07:15.660)
in this state, much rather live in many more authoritarian states than this, than a place
Lex Fridman (3:07:20.180)
where there's constant violence.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:07:22.700)
I have a bunch of questions, but I'm enjoying this.
Lex Fridman (3:07:24.340)
Here's why everything he said is wrong.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:07:25.820)
Okay, yes.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:07:26.820)
Well, the idea of competing legal systems is inevitable because what Rand talked about
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:07:33.540)
is what she wanted was, and this is really kind of out of character with her broader
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:07:39.240)
ideology is, I think this was her term and I'm not saying this to make fun of you, when
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:07:43.960)
she has a judge and he's looking at the information, she wants him to be basically, I think she's
Lex Fridman (3:07:49.540)
the word robot, someone without any ideology.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:07:52.600)
That they're just looking at the facts, they're not bringing their kind of worldview to it.
Lex Fridman (3:07:56.780)
I take it as a compliment.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:07:58.220)
You are welcome.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:08:01.060)
I think that given otherwise, her correct view that ideology is just a slur for someone's
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:08:11.880)
philosophy that someone, especially someone as erudite, educated and informed as a judge
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:08:17.140)
has to, and in fact should bring their ideology to their work is in one sense a little contradiction
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:08:23.620)
in her view, number one.
Lex Fridman (3:08:25.220)
Number two is we have right now the DA in San Francisco, I forget his name.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:08:31.080)
He's the son of literal terrorists, communist terrorists, and he has made it the decree
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:08:36.180)
unilaterally that if you shoplift for less than, I forget, $200, we're not prosecuting.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:08:41.500)
Yeah, I know that.
Lex Fridman (3:08:42.500)
You know this guy, right, right, right.
Lex Fridman (3:08:44.020)
So now you and I, and Lex I'm sure probably, agree that his ideology is abhorrent, that
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:08:51.300)
this doesn't help poor people, it doesn't help shop owners, it creates a culture, an
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:08:57.220)
area where it's just deleterious to human life.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:09:00.700)
However, he has in one sense, given that he is a state operative, a legitimate worldview.
Lex Fridman (3:09:07.180)
Can I ask you just a quick question?
Lex Fridman (3:09:08.660)
Sure.
Lex Fridman (3:09:09.660)
Why couldn't a security force in a particular context say, yeah, if you take stuff on that
Lex Fridman (3:09:15.620)
store, we're not going to have any problem with that?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:09:18.940)
I agree with you.
Lex Fridman (3:09:19.940)
That's very fair.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:09:20.940)
That's a very legitimate question.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:09:21.940)
The point is, in the context that I'm talking about, that firm is like, wait a minute, I'm
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:09:27.320)
hiring you for security, you're saying we're not going to provide security, why am I writing
Lex Fridman (3:09:31.840)
you a check?
Lex Fridman (3:09:32.840)
And we have examples of this in real life.
Lex Fridman (3:09:34.860)
If I get into a car accident with you, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:09:38.380)
You have your car insurance, I have my car insurance.
Lex Fridman (3:09:41.720)
If your car insurance had their druthers, they wouldn't pay me one penny.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:09:45.380)
If my car insurance didn't have their druthers, they wouldn't pay you one penny.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:09:49.020)
We already have all, you were saying earlier that we need to have one kind of umbrella
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:09:53.180)
mechanism of use.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:09:54.480)
There are already more cases than you can count where there's private arbitration.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:09:59.220)
Now the argument is that private arbitration only works because they have recourse to the
Lex Fridman (3:10:04.020)
government.
Lex Fridman (3:10:05.020)
But my point is, there's many examples where even though that recourse is theoretically
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:10:09.460)
possible, it's not a realistic concern, specifically because they know that if you have recourse
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:10:16.460)
to the state, you have no concept of what that outcome is going to look like, except
Lex Fridman (3:10:22.180)
knowing it's going to be exorbitant, it's going to be time consuming.
Lex Fridman (3:10:28.340)
We can't use the state, right?
Lex Fridman (3:10:29.980)
I mean, I'm as critical as the state as it is right now.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:10:33.620)
Maybe not as critical as yours, not as critical as yours, but I'm quite critical of the state
Lex Fridman (3:10:36.980)
as it is right now.
Lex Fridman (3:10:38.980)
But let's say we got into a traffic accident and you have a Rolls Royce and I destroyed
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:10:45.340)
your Rolls Royce and my insurance company now owes your insurance company a lot of money.
Lex Fridman (3:10:49.660)
And let's imagine it's a lot of money just for the sake of it.
Lex Fridman (3:10:51.780)
You're clearly guilty.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:10:52.780)
Yeah, clearly guilty.
Lex Fridman (3:10:54.020)
And my insurance company looks at the books and it goes, I don't want to pay this.
Lex Fridman (3:10:59.820)
And you know what?
Lex Fridman (3:11:00.820)
I've got bigger guns than his insurance company.
Lex Fridman (3:11:03.060)
And I'm just going to take over their insurance company.
Lex Fridman (3:11:05.580)
And hostile takeover takes on a whole new meaning when I can muster guns on my behalf
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:11:12.220)
than in a hostile takeover in a capitalist context.
Lex Fridman (3:11:17.900)
That to me is what happens.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:11:19.180)
That to me is inevitably what happens.
Lex Fridman (3:11:22.140)
And I think this is where the delusion comes in.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:11:24.220)
The idea that when big money is involved and power is involved, remember, again, the same
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:11:30.860)
kind of politicians who today get into politics are likely to want to run some of these security
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:11:36.380)
agencies because they'll have a lot of power over people.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:11:39.100)
The same kind of maybe sociopaths would be the same skill set, but that's a separate
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:11:44.500)
issue.
Lex Fridman (3:11:45.500)
I think it very much is.
Lex Fridman (3:11:46.500)
But you think people, the people in Washington, the same, the CEOs psychologically and skill
Lex Fridman (3:11:50.740)
set wise?
Lex Fridman (3:11:51.740)
Well, today's CEOs?
Lex Fridman (3:11:52.740)
Yes.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:11:53.740)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (3:11:54.740)
Yes.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:11:55.740)
You might be right.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:11:56.740)
Because I think that's what's rewarded for a CEO, somebody who could get along with government.
Lex Fridman (3:12:00.400)
And I think the kind of CEO who is going to run a security company, which is not just
Lex Fridman (3:12:05.140)
about business, it's about the use of force.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:12:07.660)
It's about control.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:12:08.820)
It's about negotiation with other entities that are using force, you know, diplomacy.
Lex Fridman (3:12:14.900)
And we should get back to objective law because I think it's essential to this whole argument.
Lex Fridman (3:12:19.100)
I think all you get into is security agencies fighting security agencies.
Lex Fridman (3:12:23.440)
And again, the biggest gun.
Lex Fridman (3:12:24.940)
And I don't mean here the guy who has the biggest literal gun, the rocket launcher versus
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:12:28.940)
the guns.
Lex Fridman (3:12:29.940)
I got excited for a second.
Lex Fridman (3:12:30.940)
By the biggest gun?
Lex Fridman (3:12:31.940)
Yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:12:32.940)
The party that has the more physical force, however, that is mustered either by numbers
Lex Fridman (3:12:37.860)
or by weapons is going to dominate and will take over everybody else.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:12:41.460)
Now, one of the things that's common in a market is takeovers.
Lex Fridman (3:12:45.920)
It's consolidation.
Lex Fridman (3:12:47.360)
And here the consolidation can happen through force and you can rule other security companies.
Lex Fridman (3:12:54.180)
And that's exactly what will happen until you dominate the particular geographic area.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:12:57.820)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (3:12:58.820)
So let me explain why I disagree with that.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:13:00.100)
You were just saying, and I agree correctly, I agree with you, that, listen, if I have
Lex Fridman (3:13:04.540)
access to the bigger gun, why am I paying you or whoever's paying whatever?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:13:08.020)
I'm just going to use force and not pay them.
Lex Fridman (3:13:10.500)
We have that right now.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:13:11.500)
It's called lobbying.
Lex Fridman (3:13:12.500)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:13:13.500)
So instead of me, and I'm sure in your example, you weren't being literal, instead of the
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:13:18.460)
insurance company literally having the army, they could be like, hey, let me call corrupt
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:13:22.820)
co with a mafia.
Lex Fridman (3:13:23.820)
I agree.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:13:24.820)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:13:25.820)
Go out and take them out.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:13:26.820)
By having this federal government, as you know, and certainly I'm not a fan of, takes
Lex Fridman (3:13:31.300)
more through asset forfeiture than burglaries combined.
Lex Fridman (3:13:36.680)
What asset forfeiture is, people don't even understand this.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:13:38.780)
This is something crazy, which you're on, it's as opposed to me, as opposed as I am,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:13:43.620)
which is I'm a cop.
Lex Fridman (3:13:45.440)
I go to your house.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:13:46.940)
I think you haven't been charged or convicted of anything.
Lex Fridman (3:13:50.260)
I have evidence.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:13:51.260)
It's usually in a car.
Lex Fridman (3:13:52.260)
Yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:13:53.260)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:13:54.260)
It's like drug deals.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:13:55.260)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (3:13:56.260)
I go to your house, you're a drug dealer.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:13:57.260)
I say, and you can understand the reasoning, well, if someone is getting profit through
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:14:02.780)
illegal mechanisms, their profit isn't really their property and they shouldn't be rewarded
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:14:07.200)
that profit.
Lex Fridman (3:14:08.200)
So basically, I go to your house, you're a drug dealer, I seize all your property.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:14:12.700)
You don't really have recourse, even though you haven't been through deep, I'm just explaining
Lex Fridman (3:14:15.900)
to the audience, through the new process and SOL.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:14:20.000)
That combined, for people who don't know, is more than the total amount of burglaries
Lex Fridman (3:14:25.200)
in America.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:14:26.300)
It's a huge incentive.
Lex Fridman (3:14:27.440)
And what happens is the police department, which seizes your car auctions, it sees your
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:14:30.980)
house auctions, it's a great way to line their pockets.
Lex Fridman (3:14:34.280)
This is a huge incentive.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:14:35.280)
It's horrible.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:14:36.640)
It's a huge incentive for police departments to do this because it's like, look, this guy's
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:14:42.920)
a crook.
Lex Fridman (3:14:43.920)
Maybe he's not a drug dealer, but he's clearly a pimp.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:14:46.680)
Let me just take all his stuff and it's going to go to the community.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:14:48.920)
Well, and the rationale originally was if I try him, in the meantime, he'll take that
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:14:54.500)
money and funnel it somewhere else and hide it, and I'll never be able to get access to
Lex Fridman (3:14:59.440)
it.
Lex Fridman (3:15:00.440)
And it was passed in the 1970s under the original Caesar Laws, what kind of RICO Act, going
Lex Fridman (3:15:06.300)
after the mafia.
Lex Fridman (3:15:07.680)
And one of the reasons I despise Giuliani as much as I do, and there's very few politicians
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:15:12.480)
out there that I despise more, is because he was the first guy to use RICO on financiers.
Lex Fridman (3:15:18.160)
And so it wasn't even a drug dealer.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:15:19.760)
It was you accused of a financial fraud, not you weren't shown to be guilty, you were accused.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:15:27.640)
All your assets basically were forfeiture.
Lex Fridman (3:15:30.200)
Innocent until proven guilty went out the window.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:15:31.960)
If you were managing money, you were done.
Lex Fridman (3:15:34.080)
You were finished.
Lex Fridman (3:15:35.080)
So you're saying this kind of stuff naturally emerges with the state.
Lex Fridman (3:15:37.280)
Hold on.
Lex Fridman (3:15:38.280)
So my point is what are presented as the strongest criticism of anarchism are inevitably descriptions
Lex Fridman (3:15:43.080)
of status quo.
Lex Fridman (3:15:44.380)
What you're describing is already the event.
Lex Fridman (3:15:46.940)
I am a big insurance company.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:15:49.120)
I don't want to pay you.
Lex Fridman (3:15:50.720)
I call Washington.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:15:52.420)
Either I pay you and Washington gives me a subsidy.
Lex Fridman (3:15:54.700)
So what you're describing is an inevitable aspect of having a government.
Lex Fridman (3:15:59.200)
So what I'm describing is the inevitable evolution of anarchy into a government.
Lex Fridman (3:16:03.440)
I just think that the...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:16:04.880)
Markets don't consolidate into monopoly.
Lex Fridman (3:16:06.520)
That's a leftist propaganda myth.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:16:08.800)
Not markets where you have substitute products, but this is the problem.
Lex Fridman (3:16:13.320)
The problem is force has no substitute.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:16:15.660)
That is force is not a product you can have.
Lex Fridman (3:16:18.060)
So this is my fundamental issue about turning competing police forces.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:16:22.920)
Force is not a product.
Lex Fridman (3:16:23.920)
Force is not a service.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:16:24.920)
It's a service.
Lex Fridman (3:16:25.920)
It's not a service.
Lex Fridman (3:16:26.920)
And it's not a product.
Lex Fridman (3:16:27.920)
Security is not a service?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:16:28.920)
No.
Lex Fridman (3:16:29.920)
Well, security in the context of a legal system is.
Lex Fridman (3:16:31.960)
But this is the point.
Lex Fridman (3:16:32.960)
The legal system, the laws are not a service or a product.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:16:37.680)
They are a different type of human institution.
Lex Fridman (3:16:42.400)
Science is not a product or a service.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:16:44.680)
It's a different type of human institution.
Lex Fridman (3:16:46.400)
There are different types of human institutions.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:16:48.260)
Some are marketable.
Lex Fridman (3:16:49.560)
You can create markets in, some you cannot.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:16:51.920)
Law is not a marketable system.
Lex Fridman (3:16:54.280)
Can I ask a question quickly?
Lex Fridman (3:16:55.780)
Is there any other field other than law that you think you can't create markets?
Lex Fridman (3:16:59.560)
Well, science.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:17:00.560)
Science is not marketable.
Lex Fridman (3:17:01.560)
The science itself is not marketable.
Lex Fridman (3:17:03.160)
What science is true and the same ethic is in law.
Lex Fridman (3:17:05.840)
Law is not marketable.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:17:07.120)
Law is the system that allows markets to happen.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:17:10.840)
You need a system of law, whether it's private law in a particular narrow context or whether
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:17:15.560)
it's broader law.
Lex Fridman (3:17:16.560)
Law is the context in which markets arise.
Lex Fridman (3:17:20.280)
So one of the reasons we transact is we know that there's a certain contract between us,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:17:24.960)
explicit or implicit, that is protected by a certain law, whether it's protected by private
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:17:28.720)
agency or private, the government doesn't matter.
Lex Fridman (3:17:30.680)
But there's a certain contract that is protectable, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:17:34.360)
By a system.
Lex Fridman (3:17:35.360)
Theoretically.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:17:36.360)
Theoretically.
Lex Fridman (3:17:37.360)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (3:17:38.360)
So law is the context in which markets arise.
Lex Fridman (3:17:40.640)
You don't create a market because there's nothing above it, in a sense.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:17:47.680)
It is the context that allows markets to be created.
Lex Fridman (3:17:51.480)
Once you market it, markets fall apart.
Lex Fridman (3:17:54.320)
So hold on a second.
Lex Fridman (3:17:55.320)
Hold on.
Lex Fridman (3:17:56.320)
So you think that law could be a market?
Lex Fridman (3:17:58.980)
And it already is a market.
Lex Fridman (3:18:00.260)
And we see it, for example, eBay.
Lex Fridman (3:18:02.180)
If I am buying something from Yaron, I won't even know his name.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:18:05.320)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (3:18:06.320)
Maybe he's in another country.
Lex Fridman (3:18:08.200)
And he screws me out of the money.
Lex Fridman (3:18:11.640)
I can't sue you.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:18:12.640)
Or if I sue you in England, good luck with that.
Lex Fridman (3:18:15.240)
You're not going to argue that I'm going to sue you.
Lex Fridman (3:18:16.840)
What happens in this case, which has already been solved by the market, eBay and PayPal,
Lex Fridman (3:18:21.360)
which has access to your bank account, they act as the private arbiter.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:18:24.720)
They're going to get it wrong a lot.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:18:27.000)
Not even a question, just like Yaron's not going to argue that the government right now
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:18:30.960)
gets it wrong a lot.
Lex Fridman (3:18:31.960)
That's not even a question.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:18:32.960)
The point is, at the very least, I'm going to get my resolution faster, cheaper, and
Lex Fridman (3:18:38.600)
more effectively.
Lex Fridman (3:18:39.880)
So the issue with having any kind of government, anything, and Yaron's not going to disagree
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:18:44.040)
with this, is at the very least, it's going to be expensive, inefficient, and cause conflict.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:18:50.200)
Yeah, but I think what it allows is exactly...
Lex Fridman (3:18:53.040)
We don't even know what the Supreme Court's going to judge.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:18:55.880)
Again, you're moving us to today's environment, which I'm against.
Lex Fridman (3:18:59.400)
I'm moving us to reality.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:19:00.880)
No, but reality doesn't have to be what it is.
Lex Fridman (3:19:03.440)
I mean, go ahead.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:19:04.440)
That's the most anti Iran quote.
Lex Fridman (3:19:05.920)
No, in a sense of the politics, the political reality.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:19:10.280)
I know, but the quote by itself is great.
Lex Fridman (3:19:11.640)
I know.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:19:12.640)
I know.
Lex Fridman (3:19:13.640)
You'd love to...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:19:14.640)
He agrees with Donald Hoffman is what he said.
Lex Fridman (3:19:15.640)
Yeah, it turns out I agree with Hoffman.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:19:16.640)
He's an elf.
Lex Fridman (3:19:18.200)
So it's...
Lex Fridman (3:19:19.200)
Where were we?
Lex Fridman (3:19:20.840)
So I believe that because we have a certain system of government, it allows for these
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:19:26.400)
private innovations to come about that facilitates certain issues in a much more efficient way
Lex Fridman (3:19:32.640)
than the government would deal with it.
Lex Fridman (3:19:34.000)
But it's only because we have a particular system that has defined property rights, that
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:19:40.240)
has a clear view of what property rights are, it has a clear view of what a transaction
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:19:45.640)
mean or what contract law is, and eBay has a bunch of stuff that you sign, whether you
Lex Fridman (3:19:51.080)
read it or not.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:19:52.080)
Of course.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:19:53.080)
The fact is defined first, and then there are massive innovations at the level of particular
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:20:00.120)
transactions at the level of an eBay that facilitate increased efficiency.
Lex Fridman (3:20:05.320)
And that's great.
Lex Fridman (3:20:06.320)
But the fact is none of that gets developed.
Lex Fridman (3:20:08.560)
None of that gets created.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:20:10.180)
In a world in which I might be living under different definition of property rights, eBay
Lex Fridman (3:20:14.680)
might be living under separate definition of property rights.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:20:16.760)
You might have a third definition of property rights, and there's no mechanism by which
Lex Fridman (3:20:20.800)
we can actually operationalize that because we all have a different system.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:20:24.920)
There is a mechanism.
Lex Fridman (3:20:25.920)
We already have that.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:20:27.000)
Let's change the example I just used.
Lex Fridman (3:20:28.880)
What happens if a Chinese person who has different definition of property rights kills an American
Lex Fridman (3:20:34.240)
in Brazil?
Lex Fridman (3:20:35.240)
Again, in a smaller community, what happens is lots of violence.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:20:39.920)
No, but I'm talking right now.
Lex Fridman (3:20:41.800)
A Chinese person has...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:20:42.960)
Right now, the only reason that it doesn't lead to violence is because people are afraid
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:20:47.200)
of even more violence, and it affects many people, large numbers of people who don't
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:20:52.200)
want to go to war.
Lex Fridman (3:20:53.400)
But if you have small...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:20:56.860)
In a state where the states were small, in those little states, there was war all the
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:21:01.720)
time for exactly those reasons, because the cost was lower, because it was more personal,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:21:08.640)
because I knew maybe the person who was killed over there, and I went to my king and encouraged
Lex Fridman (3:21:13.000)
him to go to war.
Lex Fridman (3:21:14.000)
You know why there was war?
Lex Fridman (3:21:15.000)
Violence is constant.
Lex Fridman (3:21:16.000)
You know why there was war?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:21:17.040)
Because there had been no Ayn Rand, and good ideas lead to good societies, which leads
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:21:23.520)
to good people, which leads to good behavior, good interrelationships.
Lex Fridman (3:21:26.960)
So now that we have Ayn Rand, all this stuff in the past is irrelevant, because if they
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:21:31.400)
studied her works, we would be...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:21:33.800)
Rand was on Donahue again, you could watch the clip, and he asks her, she goes...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:21:39.720)
He goes, you're saying that if we were more selfish and acted more self interest, there'd
Lex Fridman (3:21:44.640)
be less war, less Hitler?
Lex Fridman (3:21:46.880)
And she said, there wouldn't be any.
Lex Fridman (3:21:48.920)
Right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:21:49.920)
That's right.
Lex Fridman (3:21:50.920)
Well, if we were all selfish, there wouldn't be any Hitlers, right?
Lex Fridman (3:21:53.560)
But who do you regard as the overweening authority if I am buying a product from you as someone
Lex Fridman (3:22:00.960)
in England via eBay?
Lex Fridman (3:22:02.680)
Who's the governing authority?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:22:05.200)
The governing authority are the legal systems in England and the United States, which have
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:22:10.000)
to be synchronized pretty well.
Lex Fridman (3:22:11.800)
Right.
Lex Fridman (3:22:12.800)
So why eBay doesn't function in certain countries, because there is no legal system.
Lex Fridman (3:22:17.160)
I agree with you.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:22:18.160)
My point is, why do those legal systems have to be a function specifically of geography,
Lex Fridman (3:22:22.840)
as opposed to, why can't I sitting here...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:22:25.840)
I could sit here, you're not going to let me finish my point.
Lex Fridman (3:22:27.880)
I can sit here and be a British diplomat, right?
Lex Fridman (3:22:31.740)
And as a British diplomat, I'm going to be treated differently under American law than
Lex Fridman (3:22:35.560)
you are as an American citizen as you are.
Lex Fridman (3:22:37.680)
Why can't you have that same process, sure, we're geographically proximate, but I'm a
Lex Fridman (3:22:43.360)
citizen of this company and you're a citizen of that company?
Lex Fridman (3:22:47.240)
Why would that be different in your opinion?
Lex Fridman (3:22:49.960)
If it's England and the United States, it's probably not going to matter that much, right?
Lex Fridman (3:22:55.440)
But if it's Iran and the United States, then the fact that we're sitting next to each other
Lex Fridman (3:23:00.740)
makes a huge difference.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:23:01.740)
Oh, I...
Lex Fridman (3:23:02.740)
Massive difference.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:23:03.740)
The fact is that, and Ayn Rand, I think would be the first technologist and this is why
Lex Fridman (3:23:08.120)
she was so opposed to anarchy.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:23:10.720)
It's not...
Lex Fridman (3:23:11.720)
That's not why.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:23:12.720)
It is why.
Lex Fridman (3:23:13.720)
It's because of Rothbard.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:23:14.720)
No, it has nothing to do with...
Lex Fridman (3:23:15.720)
Nothing?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:23:16.720)
It has nothing to do with Rothbard.
Lex Fridman (3:23:17.720)
Nothing.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:23:18.720)
Nothing.
Lex Fridman (3:23:19.720)
How do you know?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:23:20.720)
Nothing.
Lex Fridman (3:23:21.720)
How would you know?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:23:22.720)
Because her argument against anarchy is an intellectual one, not a personality based
Lex Fridman (3:23:23.720)
one.
Lex Fridman (3:23:24.720)
Can't it be both?
Lex Fridman (3:23:25.720)
Anyway, but back to it, back to Iran.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:23:26.720)
No, it has nothing to do with Rothbard.
Lex Fridman (3:23:27.720)
You don't know that, you're not a psychic or a necromancer.
Lex Fridman (3:23:33.200)
The only way we're going to resolve this is arm wrestling, right?
Lex Fridman (3:23:36.500)
It's through violence.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:23:37.500)
Arm wrestling is not violence.
Lex Fridman (3:23:40.160)
Words are violence.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:23:41.160)
Words are violence, everyone.
Lex Fridman (3:23:42.160)
Words are violence.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:23:43.160)
Emotions are violence.
Lex Fridman (3:23:44.160)
He throws me off with this stuff.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:23:48.600)
That's the problem.
Lex Fridman (3:23:49.600)
Even facts and truth?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:23:50.600)
He's very, very good.
Lex Fridman (3:23:51.600)
Not facts and truth.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:23:52.600)
Distortions and arbitrary statements, because your statement about Rothbard is an arbitrary
Lex Fridman (3:23:56.400)
statement that has no cognitive standing and therefore I can dismiss it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:24:01.040)
I'm not doing like this because I want to dismiss it.
Lex Fridman (3:24:03.280)
It has no cognitive status.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:24:04.280)
The fact that she disliked Rothbard doesn't mean that everything he said she was going
Lex Fridman (3:24:09.120)
to dismiss because she disliked it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:24:10.280)
I agree with you.
Lex Fridman (3:24:11.280)
But what I'm saying is it would not be impossible.
Lex Fridman (3:24:13.280)
But there's no evidence.
Lex Fridman (3:24:14.280)
I'll talk.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:24:15.280)
I'll give you some evidence.
Lex Fridman (3:24:16.880)
Human psychology.
Lex Fridman (3:24:18.260)
It is not impossible that if you hate some... What's that guy's name?
Lex Fridman (3:24:23.520)
Richard Wolff.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:24:24.520)
Right.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:24:25.520)
It's not impossible that if Richard Wolff said something that you would otherwise agree
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:24:29.680)
with, hold on, let me finish, you'd be dismissive or less likely to give him credit for it being
Lex Fridman (3:24:34.520)
a human being.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:24:35.520)
That's all I'm saying.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:24:36.520)
It's as silly as to say Rothbard came up with this theory of anarchy because he was pissed
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:24:41.840)
off at Ayn Rand and wanted to write something.
Lex Fridman (3:24:43.880)
I don't know.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:24:44.880)
Bring it down.
Lex Fridman (3:24:45.880)
Bring it down so that he can speak too and let's keep it...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:24:50.960)
I don't think we're getting agitated.
Lex Fridman (3:24:51.960)
No, you guys aren't.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:24:52.960)
No, no, no.
Lex Fridman (3:24:53.960)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:24:54.960)
No, bring it down not in terms of give more pauses so Michael can insert himself.
Lex Fridman (3:25:02.920)
That's what I mean.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:25:03.920)
See, private governance.
Lex Fridman (3:25:04.920)
What's the point of that?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:25:05.920)
Private governance.
Lex Fridman (3:25:06.920)
Look.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:25:07.920)
Look, it's private governance.
Lex Fridman (3:25:08.920)
I'm all for private governance.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:25:09.920)
I'm trying to establish this geographic law of the land.
Lex Fridman (3:25:12.320)
I don't know.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:25:13.320)
That's not the point.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:25:14.320)
I do think that Michael's... I mean, that's interesting that you disagree with this.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:25:17.440)
I do believe that psychology has an impact on ideas and Ayn Rand, you don't think Ayn
Lex Fridman (3:25:23.680)
Rand had grudges that impacted the way she saw the world?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:25:30.400)
We would like to think that...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:25:31.640)
I don't think any of her grudges entered into her philosophical statements, at least not
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:25:35.200)
that I can tell, and given the centrality Ayn Rand gave to the role of government, to
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:25:43.640)
the existence of government, to the need for government, to establish real freedom, and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:25:48.720)
the way she defines freedom, which is very different than Rothbard, and the way she defines
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:25:53.000)
it, to say then that her opposition and anarchy is because of, I think, is just an arbitrary
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:26:00.480)
statement.
Lex Fridman (3:26:01.480)
I didn't say because of.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:26:02.480)
I didn't say because of.
Lex Fridman (3:26:03.480)
I said followed by.
Lex Fridman (3:26:04.480)
And not, and I don't see why psychology would enter it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:26:07.360)
Now, maybe the tone in which you responded to an answer might have been motivated by
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:26:11.320)
that or something like that, but given the amount of thought she gave to the role of
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:26:14.360)
government in human society and why government was needed, and why you needed laws in order
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:26:19.480)
to be free, that freedom didn't proceed, you needed the right hierarchy, I think that we
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:26:27.840)
could say that it, give it at least a respect that she might have been wrong, but she had
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:26:35.240)
a particular theory that rejected anarchy, and that thought anarchy was wrong.
Lex Fridman (3:26:39.440)
Okay, hold on.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:26:40.440)
I really resent, and I don't want to say you're doing this, the implication that if Rand was
Lex Fridman (3:26:45.640)
guided by her passions, that somehow is a criticism of her or lessens her.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:26:49.680)
I think Rand was a very passionate person.
Lex Fridman (3:26:52.120)
I think she loved her husband enormously.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:26:56.920)
She despised certain people enormously, and I don't think that there's anything wrong
Lex Fridman (3:27:02.280)
with that.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:27:03.280)
I don't think she would change her philosophical position about something because she disliked
Lex Fridman (3:27:05.840)
somebody.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:27:06.840)
I agree, but what I'm saying.
Lex Fridman (3:27:07.840)
Given the amount of thought she gave to that philosophical position.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:27:09.480)
All I'm saying is, it is possible that if someone comes across ideas that she had not
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:27:16.300)
considered before, if she regarded this person as a bad actor, like all of us, she would
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:27:22.280)
be less likely to take them under consideration.
Lex Fridman (3:27:25.160)
Sure.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:27:26.160)
That's all I'm saying.
Lex Fridman (3:27:27.160)
Sure.
Lex Fridman (3:27:28.160)
And I think other people confronted her with ideas of anarchy, I don't think Rothbard was
Lex Fridman (3:27:31.080)
the only one.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:27:32.080)
Correct, Roy Charles as well, yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:27:33.080)
Roy Charles certainly did.
Lex Fridman (3:27:34.080)
And she rejected them, and she rejected them because she had, and whether you agree with
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:27:37.940)
or not, she had a thought out position about why you needed to have this particular structure
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:27:45.960)
in place so that markets and human freedom could exist.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:27:49.840)
It's just really interesting because this is the one time, in my view, and please correct
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:27:54.520)
me if I'm wrong, where she invokes need as kind of a basis for political activity.
Lex Fridman (3:28:01.120)
So let's suppose you want this federal government, whatever you want, you don't want it like
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:28:05.360)
it is now, like your version of the government, I don't see why it's an issue for you for
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:28:11.560)
me and Lex to say, we're not privy to Washington, we're going to do our own thing, and given,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:28:18.240)
if we go about our lives not initiating force and being productive actors, why she would
Lex Fridman (3:28:23.360)
have an issue with this.
Lex Fridman (3:28:24.360)
Why would I care?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:28:25.360)
Well, you would care because if you're saying the government has a monopoly on force between
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:28:28.900)
these two oceans.
Lex Fridman (3:28:29.900)
So you can do that as long as you don't violate somebody else's rights.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:28:32.640)
Sure, but what I'm saying is we just declare ourselves sovereign, we're not going to pay
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:28:36.120)
any income taxes, we're going to be peaceful people, and when Lex and I have disputes,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:28:42.600)
we're going to call Joe, that's Joe Rogan, you're never going to get to meet him, but
Lex Fridman (3:28:46.160)
he's a good guy.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:28:47.160)
I know.
Lex Fridman (3:28:48.160)
We're going to call Joe, and Joe's going to resolve it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:28:51.000)
He's so good at like, you know, needling and getting you off topic that way.
Lex Fridman (3:28:57.240)
He's really effective at it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:29:00.560)
I always say, when I debate communists, I always say to them...
Lex Fridman (3:29:04.840)
You mean Lex?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:29:05.840)
Yeah, maybe Lex.
Lex Fridman (3:29:07.200)
Maybe I should...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:29:08.200)
Comrade, I love you.
Lex Fridman (3:29:10.000)
That if they really believe...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:29:11.000)
Burgundy, not red.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:29:12.000)
If they really believe in what they think, then they should be advocates of capitalism,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:29:15.840)
because under capitalism, under my system of government, capitalist government, right,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:29:19.860)
they could go and start a commune, they can live with communists, they can live to each
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:29:23.920)
according to his needs, from each according to his ability, all they want, and live their
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:29:29.840)
pathetic miserable lives that way, and the government would never intervene, because
Lex Fridman (3:29:34.080)
the whole view of capitalism is freedom, is we leave it alone, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:29:38.760)
As long as you're not violating my rights, as long as you're not taking my property,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:29:42.060)
as long as you're not engaging with...
Lex Fridman (3:29:45.120)
So in that sense, yeah, you and Lex can form your own thing, I don't believe in compulsory
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:29:49.440)
taxes anyway, so you and Lex can do your own thing, never pay taxes, as long as you're
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:29:55.280)
not violating the laws, and the laws are very limited, right, because they're only there
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:29:59.120)
to protect individual rights, so as long as you're not violating somebody else's property
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:30:02.080)
rights or inflicting force on anybody else, you're peaceful, you can do what you want,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:30:07.360)
you know, don't have...
Lex Fridman (3:30:08.360)
Great.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:30:09.360)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:30:10.360)
Great.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:30:11.360)
Case placed.
Lex Fridman (3:30:12.360)
Don't have sex with kids, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:30:13.360)
I will stop immediately.
Lex Fridman (3:30:14.360)
Good.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:30:15.360)
The rest of us are just playing checkers and he's playing chess.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:30:16.360)
Yeah, I mean, a government that protects individual rights properly is a government
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:30:20.320)
that leaves you alone to live your life as you see fit, even if you live your life in
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:30:23.640)
a way that I don't approve of, that I don't think is right, I mean, that's the whole point,
Lex Fridman (3:30:27.280)
right?
Lex Fridman (3:30:28.280)
So the only thing you can do is, you know, try to enforce arbitrary laws that you come
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:30:35.280)
up with on me.
Lex Fridman (3:30:36.280)
Sure.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:30:37.280)
Of course.
Lex Fridman (3:30:38.280)
Absolutely.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:30:39.280)
Okay, great.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:30:40.280)
Wouldn't it be wonderful if we lived in a world where rights protecting laws are superfluous,
Lex Fridman (3:30:45.240)
but the reality is usually that somebody violates them, whether by accident or intentionally,
Lex Fridman (3:30:52.480)
and that you need some mechanism, now if you guys can resolve that dispute without getting
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:30:57.400)
involved, fine.
Lex Fridman (3:30:58.860)
But if you guys land up not resolving, there is another authority that will help you resolve
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:31:04.760)
it.
Lex Fridman (3:31:05.760)
Yeah, our company.
Lex Fridman (3:31:06.760)
So can I ask you a question?
Lex Fridman (3:31:07.760)
Under anarchism, what kind of systems of laws do you think will emerge?
Lex Fridman (3:31:12.960)
Do you think we'll have basically a similar kind of layer of universal law to where, like...
Lex Fridman (3:31:18.200)
Let me answer this.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:31:19.200)
This is a great question.
Lex Fridman (3:31:20.200)
I know what you're going with this.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:31:21.900)
This is often presented as a criticism of anarchism, and this is actually something
Lex Fridman (3:31:26.340)
I think Yaron would agree with as well in other contexts, which is this.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:31:30.240)
One of the reasons communism can't work, central planning can't work, and this was one of Mises's
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:31:34.600)
great innovations, is if I could sit down, it's like asking, what would the fashion industry
Lex Fridman (3:31:40.020)
look like if the government didn't run it?
Lex Fridman (3:31:42.540)
There's no way for me to know.
Lex Fridman (3:31:44.040)
What the fashion industry is, which all of us are in favor of it being free, is literally
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:31:48.240)
millions of designers, of seamstresses, of people who make the fabric, also references
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:31:55.640)
throughout history, and these creative artistic minds putting things together in every year.
Lex Fridman (3:32:01.920)
There's no shortage of clothes.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:32:03.440)
In fact, we make so many clothes that we send them in landfill sizes to overseas poor countries,
Lex Fridman (3:32:08.840)
and you have people in these destitute countries wearing Adidas shirts.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:32:11.600)
They can't even read English, but because we don't know what to do with all these clothes.
Lex Fridman (3:32:15.260)
That's how the glory of free enterprise is.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:32:18.360)
The problem is, problem using this loosely, everything comes cheap and overabundant, like
Lex Fridman (3:32:23.960)
food.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:32:24.960)
Well, it doesn't actually come overabundant, but it's done properly.
Lex Fridman (3:32:28.320)
That's fair.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:32:29.320)
Supply meets demand.
Lex Fridman (3:32:30.320)
Sure.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:32:31.320)
That's fair.
Lex Fridman (3:32:32.320)
What I'm saying is, if 150 years ago you said, you know, one day we're going to have an issue
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:32:34.680)
where there's going to be so much food and then the kids are too fat.
Lex Fridman (3:32:38.720)
It's just going to be like, I have four who are dead in the crib.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:32:42.360)
I wish.
Lex Fridman (3:32:43.360)
I mean, what kind of paradise is this?
Lex Fridman (3:32:47.240)
What you would have, we have this right now in certain senses, you have the Hasidim, you
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:32:52.160)
have Sharia, I'm sure in the medical system, they have their own kind of private courts
Lex Fridman (3:32:58.000)
and court marshals is another example of this, although obviously that's through the state.
Lex Fridman (3:33:01.520)
So you would have innovation in law, under markets, just the same ways you'd have it.
Lex Fridman (3:33:07.840)
And we have this already.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:33:09.380)
Maybe it's not, Yaron doesn't like in terms of murder and rape and I can understand why,
Lex Fridman (3:33:13.600)
but in terms of business and interactions, he would have no problem with different arbitration
Lex Fridman (3:33:18.960)
firms, having different rules for what kind of evidence is allowed.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:33:22.800)
Maybe you only have 60 days to make your case and so on and so forth.
Lex Fridman (3:33:25.920)
And the market is a process of creative innovation and it would be dynamic.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:33:30.120)
It would be changing.
Lex Fridman (3:33:31.120)
So what's interesting relating to this is that one of the ways Ayn Rand proposed raising
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:33:35.500)
revenue for the government, because she was against, was let's say we have a contract.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:33:41.160)
We could just have it arbitrated without government interfering, but if we wanted to access the
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:33:47.200)
courts of the government as a final authority, we would pay.
Lex Fridman (3:33:51.320)
And that's how governments would raise, some of the funds would be raised that way.
Lex Fridman (3:33:55.620)
So there's definitely a value to having this innovation and the public space.
Lex Fridman (3:34:02.040)
But I don't believe that is the case with murder.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:34:04.680)
I don't believe that is the case with violent crime.
Lex Fridman (3:34:07.120)
And it's funny you bring up Sharia because David Friedman, when he gives, when he gives
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:34:10.560)
Wait, I got to ask you to clarify.
Lex Fridman (3:34:12.120)
I'm not trying to interrupt you.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:34:13.120)
You were talking about with murder.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:34:14.360)
I mean, you would agree, I think just to clarify for the audience, that there is room for innovation
Lex Fridman (3:34:19.720)
and murder because there's things like matter of slaughter.
Lex Fridman (3:34:21.240)
There's murder one, murder two.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:34:22.240)
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:34:23.240)
I don't think it happens at a market level.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:34:26.080)
I don't think there's a market innovation for murder.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:34:28.760)
Somebody has to figure out what those standards are and they will evolve as we gain more knowledge.
Lex Fridman (3:34:32.520)
But we're all in agreement that the word murder means very different things.
Lex Fridman (3:34:36.360)
Oh, absolutely.
Lex Fridman (3:34:37.360)
And if circumstances matter and standards of proof and standards of evidence, all of
Lex Fridman (3:34:43.120)
that, there has to be a standard.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:34:45.120)
All of that, there has to be a standard.
Lex Fridman (3:34:46.640)
And that's what I think a proper government provides.
Lex Fridman (3:34:52.160)
So David Friedman uses, in some of his talks about private law, he uses Sharia law in Somalia
Lex Fridman (3:34:59.160)
as an example.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:35:00.160)
Look, legal systems evolve privately, independent, yeah, authoritarian ones, ones that don't
Lex Fridman (3:35:07.040)
respect the rights of women at all.
Lex Fridman (3:35:08.840)
Are you married?
Lex Fridman (3:35:09.840)
No, no.
Lex Fridman (3:35:10.840)
But we all want to have sex with our mother, as Freud would say.
Lex Fridman (3:35:14.240)
Oh my God.
Lex Fridman (3:35:15.240)
Can we make that a clip?
Lex Fridman (3:35:16.720)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:35:17.720)
Where the hell did that come from?
Lex Fridman (3:35:20.360)
That's much better than what I was just saying about the kids.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:35:23.040)
I appreciate that.
Lex Fridman (3:35:24.040)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (3:35:25.040)
So we went in a voluntary way, although sometimes for Yaron and sometimes for Michael it felt
Lex Fridman (3:35:29.880)
involuntary, but we all got the big guns.
Lex Fridman (3:35:34.400)
So how do we land this?
Lex Fridman (3:35:37.600)
Obviously there's a disagreement about anarchism here.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:35:41.480)
I think there's a big agreement.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:35:44.000)
Because if Yaron was saying that if I want to have my voluntary stupid thing with you,
Lex Fridman (3:35:48.720)
and his government is not going to tax me, and is not going to insinuate itself unless
Lex Fridman (3:35:53.080)
we're murdering each other, something like that, I'm okay with that.
Lex Fridman (3:35:56.000)
So if you take the example of Sharia law, which was mentioned earlier.
Lex Fridman (3:35:59.800)
So if you have a little community within this, within my world, right, that imposes Sharia
Lex Fridman (3:36:06.080)
law, if it starts mutilating little girls, then you impose your law on it, right?
Lex Fridman (3:36:15.440)
You impose the law on it because it's an issue of protecting individual rights.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:36:18.640)
If they want to treat women, if women have to cover up, and the women are okay with that,
Lex Fridman (3:36:24.000)
that's fine.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:36:25.000)
If the woman wants to leave but is not allowed to leave, that's where my government would
Lex Fridman (3:36:29.380)
step in and prevent them from using force against her.
Lex Fridman (3:36:35.680)
And that's it, right?
Lex Fridman (3:36:37.640)
Now I think it's more complicated than that, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:36:39.920)
Because I think there are complex issue property rights often where it's not going to be easy
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:36:44.760)
for you guys to resolve, and particularly if you interact with people outside of your
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:36:48.600)
community.
Lex Fridman (3:36:49.600)
Sure.
Lex Fridman (3:36:50.600)
But yeah, my view is government is there to protect individual rights.
Lex Fridman (3:36:56.120)
That's it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:36:57.120)
Otherwise, leave you alone.
Lex Fridman (3:36:58.340)
I think this conversation is going to continue for quite a while.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:37:02.440)
Israel has a new book on the topic coming out eventually, one day.
Lex Fridman (3:37:06.680)
So you're working also on the, still called the White Pill?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:37:09.800)
The White Pill, yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:37:10.800)
And the first line of the White Pill is, Ayn Rand did not laugh.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:37:16.920)
I'm not joking.
Lex Fridman (3:37:17.920)
That's literally the first line.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:37:18.920)
I believe it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:37:19.920)
Because it opens up with her, who knows what the book's going to look like when it's done,
Lex Fridman (3:37:23.160)
but as of now, that's the beginning, because it opens up with her testimony at the House
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:37:27.760)
UnAmerican Activities Committee, where she's trying to explain to these congresspeople
Lex Fridman (3:37:33.560)
what it was like when she left the Soviet Union, and they are just befuddled by it.
Lex Fridman (3:37:38.760)
Can you explain she did not laugh?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:37:40.280)
Well, because the first line of the Fountainhead, spoiler alert, is Howard Rourke laughed.
Lex Fridman (3:37:43.960)
So this is a little inversion of that.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:37:45.560)
It says Ayn Rand did not laugh, because Ayn Rand was a huge fan of America, as am I.
Lex Fridman (3:37:53.900)
She took our political system very seriously.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:37:57.520)
She had enormous reverence for institutions.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:38:00.160)
One example of this is one of the villains of the Atlas Shrugged is based on Harry Truman.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:38:06.720)
I think Thompson is the character's name.
Lex Fridman (3:38:08.880)
And because she had such respect for the title of president, she refers to him as the chairman.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:38:13.600)
She couldn't even bring herself...
Lex Fridman (3:38:14.600)
She had a huge respect for the presidency.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:38:17.160)
I wonder if she'd still have it, given the last string of presidents we've had.
Lex Fridman (3:38:20.840)
So having her, which sets up the broader point of the book, which I'm sure I'll be back on
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:38:27.360)
the show to discuss, assuming this bridge hasn't been burned, but I'll try my best.
Lex Fridman (3:38:32.160)
All three of us are canceled.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:38:34.480)
Some are more canceled than the others.
Lex Fridman (3:38:36.160)
Uh oh.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:38:37.160)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (3:38:38.160)
I'm looking at you, Michael.
Lex Fridman (3:38:39.160)
And the point being, which sets up the broader point of the book, is how ignorant many people
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:38:45.960)
are in the West about the horrors of Stalinism and communism, but also how many people in
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:38:53.280)
the West were complicit in saying to Americans, go home, everything's fine, this is great,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:39:02.320)
sure, you know, this is why pensions have a race, they're sure they're mistakes.
Lex Fridman (3:39:05.920)
And they really made a point to downplay really gratuitously some of the unimaginable atrocities
Lex Fridman (3:39:13.600)
of the communism.
Lex Fridman (3:39:15.280)
And just one more sentence, and going through the work and learning about what they actually
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:39:20.880)
did is so jaw dropping that it's, and if I didn't know about it, many people I'm friends
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:39:28.400)
with who are historians who entered the space, you know, this isn't common knowledge to them,
Lex Fridman (3:39:32.320)
then we can assume that almost no one knows about it.
Lex Fridman (3:39:35.200)
And I think it's very important for people to appreciate whether Republican, Democrat,
Lex Fridman (3:39:40.760)
liberal, whatever, how much of a danger this is.
Lex Fridman (3:39:45.160)
And I think Americans have this, there's a book called It Can't Happen Here, I think
Lex Fridman (3:39:49.400)
by Sinclair Lewis about a fascism coming to America.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:39:53.280)
American exceptionalism has a positive context, but also a negative context where you think
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:39:57.600)
we're invincible, all these horrible things that happen in these other countries, it can't
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:40:01.020)
possibly happen here, we're America, we're special, and it's completely an absurdity.
Lex Fridman (3:40:06.440)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:40:07.440)
Have you seen the movie, Mr. Jones?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:40:10.040)
My friend wrote it, no I haven't, but Walter Durante and his quotes, I have a thread on
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:40:15.680)
Twitter.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:40:16.680)
For those who don't know, he won a Pulitzer because he was the New York Times man in Moscow.
Lex Fridman (3:40:22.560)
And endlessly, he was talking about how great it was, how if you hear about this famine
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:40:29.960)
in Ukraine, this is just propaganda, I went to the villages, you know, everyone's happy
Lex Fridman (3:40:35.140)
and fed.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:40:36.360)
A lot of it was explicit lies, you know, and when you realize you're talking about, let's
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:40:42.160)
give them the absolute benefit of the doubt, an accidental genocide, it's still mind boggling.
Lex Fridman (3:40:49.440)
And also, you know, Ann Applebaum, who's just a phenomenal, phenomenal writer, she wrote
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:40:54.160)
a book called Red Famine, Stalin's War in Ukraine, and she talks about how what people
Lex Fridman (3:40:59.680)
in America don't appreciate is how clever in their sadism the Soviets were.
Lex Fridman (3:41:06.960)
And what they knew to do to Ukraine is everyone is starving, so they knew if you got some
Lex Fridman (3:41:11.880)
meat on your bones, you're hiding food.
Lex Fridman (3:41:14.360)
So they come back at night, take your hand, put in the door jam, keep slamming the door,
Lex Fridman (3:41:18.680)
ransack your house.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:41:19.680)
They didn't have to find the food, burn down your house, take all your clothes, goodbye
Lex Fridman (3:41:24.480)
and good luck.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:41:25.480)
I don't recall saying good luck.
Lex Fridman (3:41:26.480)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:41:27.480)
So I highly recommend the movie because it's very well done.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:41:31.400)
It's very well directed, it's beautifully made, it's stunningly effective in illustrating
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:41:37.800)
exactly that.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:41:38.800)
When you're in Ukraine during the famine, oh, your heart goes, I mean, it's crushing.
Lex Fridman (3:41:44.320)
And it shifts to black and white.
Lex Fridman (3:41:45.640)
It's very, very well made aesthetically, so highly recommend.
Lex Fridman (3:41:49.320)
And it's written by Andriusha Lupa, she's a Ukrainian friend of mine, she introduced
Lex Fridman (3:41:53.040)
me, Yanmi Park, who's a big North Korean defector.
Lex Fridman (3:41:57.040)
And this is the kind of thing where I think more people need to...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:42:01.920)
When I wrote the new write, which talks a lot about the Nazis or the kind of neo Nazis,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:42:06.760)
on their big complaints against people who are Jewish, she's like, oh, we hear all about
Lex Fridman (3:42:11.600)
the Holocaust.
Lex Fridman (3:42:12.600)
How come you don't talk about the Holodomor?
Lex Fridman (3:42:13.600)
I'm like, I'm trying to do my part.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:42:15.120)
I agree with you that we need to be talking more about the Holodomor.
Lex Fridman (3:42:18.840)
Absolutely.
Lex Fridman (3:42:19.840)
And it's sad, there are more movies that are anti Soviet, which tells you a lot about the
Lex Fridman (3:42:24.240)
view of the intelligentsia.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:42:26.400)
It's a great idea, it just was badly implemented.
Lex Fridman (3:42:29.060)
And no, it's a rotten idea, it's an evil idea, and it was implemented exactly how it has
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:42:34.440)
to be implemented.
Lex Fridman (3:42:35.440)
There's no alternative.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:42:37.520)
Can we talk about The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, and which character do you find
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:42:44.240)
most fascinating, ones that kind of you meet in your own mind, that you almost have conversations
Lex Fridman (3:42:49.720)
with or has an influence on you and your life in general?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:42:54.080)
You know what character I like, because I know no one ever gives this answer, but this
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:42:58.480)
is my...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:43:00.320)
Just aesthetically, you know how sometimes you're drawn to a character and if this person
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:43:04.240)
were real, you think they're just horrible, but there's something about the resonates
Lex Fridman (3:43:07.200)
with you.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:43:08.200)
I can't even explain this, but I love the character in Atlas Shrugged of Lillian Reardon,
Lex Fridman (3:43:13.240)
who is Hank Reardon's wife.
Lex Fridman (3:43:15.040)
And what is amazing about her, so she's his wife, he's this big industrialist innovator,
Lex Fridman (3:43:21.520)
and she's this like former beauty, but she's so cold and soulless that there's...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:43:29.000)
I mean, I joke about, you know, Ayn Rand's vampire novels, that character is as close
Lex Fridman (3:43:33.220)
to a literal vampire as you're going to see in Rand.
Lex Fridman (3:43:37.120)
And there's just this great scene where, you know, Hank Reardon invents Reardon metal.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:43:42.200)
It's this great metal, which is extremely strong, but extremely, it's like light, so
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:43:45.880)
this creates all these innovations.
Lex Fridman (3:43:48.200)
And he brings her a bracelet made of the first Reardon metal.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:43:52.080)
This is his life goal.
Lex Fridman (3:43:53.400)
This is like Prometheus bringing fire.
Lex Fridman (3:43:55.540)
And she's like, what the fuck is this?
Lex Fridman (3:43:57.520)
You brought me diamonds.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:43:58.520)
Yeah, you could have brought me diamonds.
Lex Fridman (3:43:59.520)
What is this shit?
Lex Fridman (3:44:00.520)
And then Dagny, who is another industrialist, she's a heroine, very strong female character
Lex Fridman (3:44:04.360)
in Atlas Shrugged, is at a party, and she goes, I got diamonds, let's trade.
Lex Fridman (3:44:08.960)
And Lillian's like, you want this?
Lex Fridman (3:44:10.640)
And she's like, yes, because that's the concretization of the human mind.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:44:13.480)
These are rocks.
Lex Fridman (3:44:14.700)
And Lillian's like, okay, whatever.
Lex Fridman (3:44:17.060)
And that character is someone who has a lot of resonance in our culture, this kind of
Lex Fridman (3:44:24.240)
soulless...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:44:25.600)
It's easy to write a soulless male figure, like Peter Keating in some ways a soulless,
Lex Fridman (3:44:31.620)
but that for some reason, when it's like a soulless female, it seems that much more chilling
Lex Fridman (3:44:39.200)
and effective.
Lex Fridman (3:44:40.200)
Do you not agree though, that Lillian Reardon is an amazingly very powerful figure?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:44:43.680)
Powerful figure.
Lex Fridman (3:44:44.680)
And I think Reardon is too.
Lex Fridman (3:44:47.200)
And what I love about Reardon is his evolution, right?
Lex Fridman (3:44:51.240)
He's so flawed.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:44:52.560)
He's a hero who's completely flawed, and it drives me nuts when people say, her characters
Lex Fridman (3:44:57.560)
are cartoonish, they never change, there's no emotion.
Lex Fridman (3:45:00.640)
Really?
Lex Fridman (3:45:01.640)
Did you read the same book I did?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:45:03.480)
Because if you take Reardon, and he's struggling and he's trying to deal with Lillian and his
Lex Fridman (3:45:07.120)
family and all this stuff, and we know family members like this, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:45:10.760)
I mean, who are leeches and parasites, but he's excusing them because that's what he's
Lex Fridman (3:45:15.960)
supposed to do.
Lex Fridman (3:45:17.200)
And then as he evolves to fully realize what's going on, that evolution is difficult, it's
Lex Fridman (3:45:23.720)
hard.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:45:24.720)
Like the scene after he has sex with Dagny, of course, he gives a speech, but the speeches
Lex Fridman (3:45:27.960)
is such a good speech in terms of conveying his mind body split, right?
Lex Fridman (3:45:34.400)
He thinks he really had fun, he really enjoyed the sex, right?
Lex Fridman (3:45:38.280)
But he thinks it's animalistic, and he thinks it's a sign of his depravity, and he thinks,
Lex Fridman (3:45:43.280)
and here he is, this woman he loves, and he adores her, and he can't connect the two,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:45:48.680)
he can't connect the sex with the love, he can't connect the sex with adoration, and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:45:52.920)
with the values.
Lex Fridman (3:45:53.920)
So her characters are anything I think but cardboard characters, because I think Dagny
Lex Fridman (3:45:59.840)
and the scenes where she's listening to music, and gets captured by the music and the way
Lex Fridman (3:46:05.400)
Wren describes that, I think it's just beautiful.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:46:08.200)
Or the scene, my favorite scene in Atlas is the scene where they're taking the first train
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:46:16.360)
ride across the John Gold Bridge, and they're in the engine room, and it's traveling through,
Lex Fridman (3:46:24.160)
and the way she's describing Dagny, it's almost like Dagny's having sex with the machine,
Lex Fridman (3:46:28.960)
right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:46:29.960)
It's so powerful emotionally, their success, the fact that they did it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:46:34.800)
Nobody told them it was impossible, and the train is going really fast, and that whole,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:46:39.840)
it's got a sexual vibe to it, it's all about passion, it's all about success, and it's
Lex Fridman (3:46:46.760)
all about the success of their minds, and nobody else matters.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:46:51.160)
What's really great about that scene, just in terms of constructing the novel, I'm not
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:46:54.720)
going to spoil anything, so the Atlas Shrugged has three acts, like three act structures
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:46:59.360)
not uncommon, and the first act is about Hank Reardon overcoming all this adversity
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:47:04.760)
at home in his personal life and in his business to create this great achievement.
Lex Fridman (3:47:10.040)
So Rand really makes the reader invested in this character and his accomplishments, he's
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:47:14.980)
unambiguously doing something good, there's no downside here, he's making it easier to
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:47:20.280)
transport people, transport food, this is really just great.
Lex Fridman (3:47:24.180)
And it's just, once you read it and you look back, you're like, she does such a masterful
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:47:29.080)
job of making, you have to be a fan of this person and root for them, because she's like,
Lex Fridman (3:47:33.960)
oh, you think things are going great, he's overcome?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:47:36.760)
Hold on a minute.
Lex Fridman (3:47:37.760)
And then the rest of it, she's just real, and your sense of injustice is triggered as
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:47:43.320)
a reader to such an nth degree, because you saw what he went through to get to this point,
Lex Fridman (3:47:48.560)
and now you're seeing it taken away from people inferior to him.
Lex Fridman (3:47:51.580)
And one of the quotes on Twitter I use all the time is, I'll see someone, politician
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:47:56.900)
or a bureaucrat or a thinker, just advocate for something completely unconscionable.
Lex Fridman (3:48:02.640)
And I'll just quote and say, my favorite criticism of Ayn Rand is that they say her villains
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:48:07.880)
are too evil and unrealistic, because the things that people posit with a straight face
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:48:13.080)
are so much worse than she has in her book.
Lex Fridman (3:48:16.480)
And not just politicians, you find intellectuals today.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:48:18.800)
Oh, of course.
Lex Fridman (3:48:19.800)
So yeah, yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:48:20.800)
Way, way over the top.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:48:21.800)
You know, even whenever Adlai Shrugged I was going, nobody really talks like this.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:48:25.400)
No, they do.
Lex Fridman (3:48:26.400)
Let me give you one example.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:48:28.120)
There was a story she wrote, which she never published, they published her journals, the
Lex Fridman (3:48:31.960)
Ayn Rand Institute.
Lex Fridman (3:48:33.560)
And there was one character, and this is a prototype of Ellsworth Toohey, he was the
Lex Fridman (3:48:36.600)
villain of one of the villains of the Fountainhead.
Lex Fridman (3:48:39.520)
And basically, the kid had like deformed legs or broke his legs or something like that.
Lex Fridman (3:48:43.580)
And he wants to get leg braces.
Lex Fridman (3:48:45.620)
And the dad is like, Oh, we're not going to do that.
Lex Fridman (3:48:47.640)
Why should you be better than anyone else?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:48:49.160)
Like you should just have like this deformity, accept your fate.
Lex Fridman (3:48:52.320)
And you're reading this.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:48:53.320)
I'm like, what dad is not going to give his kid leg braces, it's ridiculous.
Lex Fridman (3:48:57.320)
But now it's not uncommon for deaf children to not get cochlear implants and not be able
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:49:03.560)
to hear because their parents say, well, we're going to lose deaf culture.
Lex Fridman (3:49:08.500)
Hearing is just information.
Lex Fridman (3:49:09.560)
And you're sitting there, and whether you agree with this or not, this is very close
Lex Fridman (3:49:13.160)
to what she was saying.
Lex Fridman (3:49:14.880)
And when I read what she was saying, I'm like, okay, crazy Ayn Rand, this is not a thing.
Lex Fridman (3:49:18.720)
And it's like, oh, yeah, the craziness is that it's not braces, it's hearing.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:49:23.160)
It's yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:49:24.160)
And what evil to deny your kid hearing.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:49:26.000)
I mean, God.
Lex Fridman (3:49:27.720)
So here's the thing, if you want deaf culture, which I would believe is a thing, sign language
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:49:31.680)
or whatever, they could turn it off.
Lex Fridman (3:49:33.200)
Yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:49:34.200)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:49:35.200)
If you want, you give them the choice.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:49:36.200)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:49:37.200)
Tonight, I'm sorry, one more thing.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:49:38.200)
You know, Rand used the word evil frequently.
Lex Fridman (3:49:41.640)
And I think maybe I can make the argument she used it too loosely.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:49:45.240)
If you are denying a child the gift of music, I will say that's evil.
Lex Fridman (3:49:49.400)
I agree completely.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:49:51.000)
Unambiguously.
Lex Fridman (3:49:52.000)
Yep.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:49:53.000)
If you go online and listen, watch videos of people getting hearing aids and being able
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:49:59.120)
to hear for the first time, I promise you, you will cry because there's no pure, I'm
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:50:05.040)
getting teared up right now.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:50:06.440)
There's no pure expression of humanity and technology at its best than seeing a two year
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:50:12.560)
old or one and a half year old who can't even talk.
Lex Fridman (3:50:15.440)
And then you see the reaction when they hear mom's voice.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:50:18.040)
It's so beautiful and moving.
Lex Fridman (3:50:20.160)
Absolutely.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:50:21.160)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:50:22.160)
It's just moving.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:50:23.160)
It is.
Lex Fridman (3:50:24.160)
It's like it's one of the, one of the ways to rethink technology, perhaps.
Lex Fridman (3:50:28.320)
And there's this, this is really funny because sometimes it'll be this tough dude, right?
Lex Fridman (3:50:32.440)
And he's been deaf all his life.
Lex Fridman (3:50:34.000)
And then they put the hearing aid and the girl is like, can you hear me?
Lex Fridman (3:50:36.720)
And he's trying to be tough for three seconds and you just sit there.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:50:40.960)
No, absolutely.
Lex Fridman (3:50:41.960)
And that's true of any sense.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:50:43.480)
I mean.
Lex Fridman (3:50:44.480)
Like colorblind people seeing color for the first time, that kind of thing.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:50:46.960)
I think there's a few.
Lex Fridman (3:50:48.040)
It's not quite the same, but it's somewhat.
Lex Fridman (3:50:50.800)
But if you're blind and suddenly can see, I mean, it's just, it's just stunning.
Lex Fridman (3:50:55.080)
I mean, and how do we form our concepts?
Lex Fridman (3:50:57.160)
How do we think?
Lex Fridman (3:50:58.160)
We have to, we get information from reality, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:51:02.040)
We interact with reality through our senses and that's how we become conceptual beings.
Lex Fridman (3:51:06.820)
And you deny an element of that from a human being.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:51:09.720)
That is horrible.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:51:10.720)
There's a potential with that, with the Neuralink too, so further developments there.
Lex Fridman (3:51:14.600)
So I mean on that, there's a powerful question of who is John Galt.
Lex Fridman (3:51:18.800)
I don't know if we can do this without spoiler alerts.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:51:21.360)
Yeah, don't spoil the book.
Lex Fridman (3:51:22.360)
Okay.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:51:23.360)
Well, but you can say, you can say.
Lex Fridman (3:51:25.000)
What's the importance of this character?
Lex Fridman (3:51:26.440)
What's the importance of this question?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:51:27.440)
I mean, without the, so I want to give a talk on who is John Galt and who is John Galt in
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:51:32.440)
a sense is anybody who takes their own life seriously.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:51:35.700)
Anybody who's willing to really live fully their own life, use their mind in pursuit
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:51:40.440)
of their rational values and pursue their happiness fully uncompromisingly with no comp,
Lex Fridman (3:51:47.580)
with no compromise and sticking to the integrity.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:51:53.200)
Anybody can be John Galt in that sense.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:51:55.040)
I think one of the mottos I live by is all we are tasked to, maybe this is a little bit
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:52:02.440)
religious but I think your own is going to agree with it.
Lex Fridman (3:52:04.320)
I'm sure you'll agree with it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:52:05.880)
All any of us can do is leave the world a little bit of a better place than we found
Lex Fridman (3:52:09.600)
it.
Lex Fridman (3:52:10.600)
And I think if you do that through hard work, being honest, being a kind, not at the expense
Lex Fridman (3:52:15.420)
of other people, you can go to your grave patting yourself on the back.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:52:20.280)
I mean, to me, leaving the world a better place, yeah, I mean, that's not what drives
Lex Fridman (3:52:26.960)
me.
Lex Fridman (3:52:27.960)
What drives me is, I mean, what I think drives people.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:52:29.760)
I think just live a good life and good life means a life you're happy living and part
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:52:34.960)
of that is the impact you have on the world but it's, so many people live wasted lives,
Lex Fridman (3:52:41.640)
live mediocre lives, live conventional lives.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:52:45.140)
Maybe they even leave the world a better place but they didn't really, they didn't –
Lex Fridman (3:52:48.760)
But they didn't leave the world a better place.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:52:50.080)
They left the world a better place but they didn't live their potential or they died
Lex Fridman (3:52:57.800)
feeling guilty about it or they – a million different things.
Lex Fridman (3:53:01.520)
So there's so many productive people.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:53:02.720)
I mean, think about all the innovators and the technologists and the businessmen who
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:53:06.680)
leave the world a better place by a big shot but are never happy.
Lex Fridman (3:53:10.480)
Never happy in their own souls, in their own life.
Lex Fridman (3:53:14.320)
And to me, that's what counts and if you're going to be happy, you'll leave the better
Lex Fridman (3:53:17.640)
world a better place.
Lex Fridman (3:53:18.640)
And that's what Jean Val symbolizes.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:53:20.220)
To me, it's living your life by your standards, by your values and pursuing that happiness.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:53:29.120)
Well, I take – I'm sorry, I take in a different context because I think a lot of – and I
Lex Fridman (3:53:33.560)
don't think you're going to disagree with this.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:53:35.000)
I think a lot of times when you're young, you have unrealistic expectations about what
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:53:38.280)
you're going to accomplish and you think to yourself, well, I thought, let's suppose
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:53:41.160)
someone wants to go into politics.
Lex Fridman (3:53:42.160)
Well, if I'm not elected president, I'm a failure.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:53:44.480)
That's nonsensical.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:53:45.480)
There's lots of people who are successful who haven't achieved literally the top position
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:53:48.800)
in their role.
Lex Fridman (3:53:49.800)
So if you can go to your grave having – defending everything you've done and you move the needle
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:53:54.320)
in the –
Lex Fridman (3:53:55.320)
Yes.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:53:56.320)
Successes should not be relative.
Lex Fridman (3:53:57.320)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (3:53:58.320)
So that goes back to second handedness.
Lex Fridman (3:53:59.320)
Yes.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:54:00.320)
Success is not being better than other people.
Lex Fridman (3:54:01.320)
Success is not being the best.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:54:03.360)
Success is maximizing your potential, whatever that is.
Lex Fridman (3:54:06.480)
And look, I know people – I have a son who could be a really good engineer, a really
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:54:13.960)
good mathematician, really good scientist, but he decided he wants to write comedy.
Lex Fridman (3:54:18.880)
So he might have been a better mathematician than he is a comedian, but that's his values.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:54:23.160)
That's his goals.
Lex Fridman (3:54:24.160)
That's what he wants to do.
Lex Fridman (3:54:25.760)
And hopefully he'll be really, really good at that and he'll be incredibly successful
Lex Fridman (3:54:29.080)
at it materially in every other sense, but that's what you pursue.
Lex Fridman (3:54:34.600)
So it's really being true to yourself in a deep sense.
Lex Fridman (3:54:39.640)
And if you are true to yourself, yeah, you'll leave the world a better place, but that's
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:54:43.200)
not the essence.
Lex Fridman (3:54:44.200)
The essence is you.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:54:45.680)
No, focus on you.
Lex Fridman (3:54:47.340)
Focus on making your life the best life that it can be.
Lex Fridman (3:54:50.160)
And if you do that, you'll make the world a better place by – almost by definition.
Lex Fridman (3:54:54.760)
Yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:54:55.760)
You'll impact people.
Lex Fridman (3:54:56.760)
We're looking at the same thing in different ways.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:54:58.960)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:54:59.960)
So at least in my little corner of the world, it was disappointing how rare that is.
Lex Fridman (3:55:06.760)
So one of the reasons I'm here in Austin and one of the reasons my work gravitated
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:55:12.920)
towards Elon Musk is because he represents that person for me in the world of technology,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:55:21.120)
in the world of CEO, in the world of business.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:55:23.760)
It was very surprising to me the more I've learned about the world of tech, how few people
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:55:29.360)
live unapologetically, fully to their potential.
Lex Fridman (3:55:35.480)
I'm sure people, others do that.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:55:38.120)
Maybe music and art.
Lex Fridman (3:55:39.120)
I'm not sure.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:55:40.120)
I don't know about those worlds.
Lex Fridman (3:55:41.120)
I do know about the technology world.
Lex Fridman (3:55:43.320)
And it was disappointing to me how many people compromise their integrity in subtle ways
Lex Fridman (3:55:49.400)
at first, but then it becomes a slippery slope and then you –
Lex Fridman (3:55:52.080)
Can I say this?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:55:53.200)
There's this great quote and I always forget if it's Steinbeck or Hemingway and the quote
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:55:57.400)
– and this applies for money, it applies for morality – the quote was, how did you
Lex Fridman (3:56:01.760)
go bankrupt?
Lex Fridman (3:56:03.280)
And he says two ways, gradually and then suddenly.
Lex Fridman (3:56:06.500)
It's very hard to one day be like, I have no integrity.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:56:10.160)
That doesn't happen.
Lex Fridman (3:56:11.240)
It's very easy if it's like, look, I stole this candy bar.
Lex Fridman (3:56:15.720)
What's the big deal if I steal this thing?
Lex Fridman (3:56:17.920)
Then you're still –
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:56:18.920)
People say there are no slippery slopes.
Lex Fridman (3:56:20.640)
There are and they're big and they're very slippery and people slide.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:56:24.040)
This is the biggest one.
Lex Fridman (3:56:25.360)
And people violate their integrity even without stealing.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:56:27.820)
Just little things about how they treat other people, how they treat themselves, the values
Lex Fridman (3:56:31.700)
they pursue.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:56:32.700)
They don't go after the profession they really wanted to.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:56:34.660)
They compromise in ways that they shouldn't with their spouse or with their mothers or
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:56:39.200)
whatever.
Lex Fridman (3:56:40.200)
And then they wake up one day when they're 40.
Lex Fridman (3:56:42.680)
And this is why people go through a midlife crisis.
Lex Fridman (3:56:47.480)
Midlife crisis is a crisis where you suddenly realize, I didn't do it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:56:51.200)
I didn't live up to my standards.
Lex Fridman (3:56:52.800)
I didn't live up to my youthful idealism.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:56:55.920)
I compromised and I sold out.
Lex Fridman (3:56:57.840)
But I also would warn you about Silicon Valley.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:57:00.120)
Yeah, I think at the top very few of them stick to it and partially it's the political
Lex Fridman (3:57:06.960)
pressure is unbearable.
Lex Fridman (3:57:07.960)
I mean, how would you?
Lex Fridman (3:57:09.800)
How can you?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:57:10.800)
It would require to be a hero and very few of them are.
Lex Fridman (3:57:13.700)
But there are a lot of people who do really well at all kinds of levels in technology
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:57:18.120)
who – little startups, people.
Lex Fridman (3:57:20.160)
And this is the point Michael was making.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:57:21.160)
You don't have to be the best.
Lex Fridman (3:57:22.160)
Yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:57:23.160)
You know, you don't have to be a CEO to live to your max and to live with integrity
Lex Fridman (3:57:28.600)
and to live a great life.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:57:30.720)
I know people who because they joined Amazon or whatever have just made a life for themselves,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:57:36.560)
an amazing life for themselves and have done great work at Amazon let's say and then
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:57:41.640)
have lived a great life because of the opportunity that created for them.
Lex Fridman (3:57:45.700)
So I think there are more good people out there but yes, one of the saddest things of
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:57:51.520)
growing up is – or even when you're a teenager and looking at adults and noticing
Lex Fridman (3:57:57.960)
how few of them actually live, I mean really alive in a sense of living their values and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:58:04.400)
enjoying their life.
Lex Fridman (3:58:05.400)
And you start with your parents and you look across the people, everybody lives such mediocre
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:58:10.200)
lives.
Lex Fridman (3:58:11.200)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:58:12.200)
And the other thing is they don't have to.
Lex Fridman (3:58:13.200)
That's what people don't appreciate.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:58:14.200)
They don't have to.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:58:15.200)
Particularly not in the world that we live in today that's so wealthy and so many – we
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:58:18.720)
all have so many opportunities.
Lex Fridman (3:58:20.440)
So what – by way of advice, what advice would you give to young people to live their
Lex Fridman (3:58:27.760)
life fully?
Lex Fridman (3:58:28.760)
I mean Michael and I have talked about this but it bears repeating.
Lex Fridman (3:58:35.480)
So if you look at John Galt, if you look at the highest ideals of what we – of a life
Lex Fridman (3:58:40.040)
we could live, what advice would you give to a 20 year old today, 18 year old?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:58:43.960)
Can I say – I don't think – and I think Rand would agree.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:58:46.840)
When Rand was writing John Galt, she says, when you have this character's human perfection,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:58:51.720)
you don't want to get too close.
Lex Fridman (3:58:53.400)
So he's a little bit of a vague character because she was aware that when you're dealing
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:58:56.920)
with day to day, it kind of – the shine comes off.
Lex Fridman (3:58:59.480)
I think Rourke is a lot better character for a young person.
Lex Fridman (3:59:03.200)
Oh really?
Lex Fridman (3:59:04.200)
Yeah, but Rourke is all – the entirety of the Fountainhead is Rourke.
Lex Fridman (3:59:07.300)
So Ed Reardon is the one of several.
Lex Fridman (3:59:08.440)
We barely know John Galt.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:59:09.440)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:59:10.440)
So but Rourke is someone where you could be like, okay.
Lex Fridman (3:59:12.980)
And what Rourke also gives young people is –
Lex Fridman (3:59:15.600)
That's in the Fountainhead.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:59:16.600)
That's in the Fountainhead, is the strength to persevere.
Lex Fridman (3:59:20.160)
Because when you're young, you're going to have down times.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:59:23.520)
There's going to be times when you're lonely.
Lex Fridman (3:59:25.720)
There's going to be times when you don't have a girlfriend.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:59:28.160)
There's going to be times when you're out of work and you're thinking, holy crap, I'm
Lex Fridman (3:59:32.080)
falling between the cracks.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:59:33.480)
I'm going to accomplish that.
Lex Fridman (3:59:34.600)
I'm going to be a failure.
Lex Fridman (3:59:36.040)
And he gives them the courage.
Lex Fridman (3:59:38.960)
There's even a scene in the Fountainhead, which is this amazing scene.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:59:42.120)
I love that it's not talked about enough where basically Rourke is looking at one of
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:59:45.800)
his buildings and this little kid on a bicycle comes up to him and – Yaron, please correct
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:59:50.800)
me.
Lex Fridman (3:59:51.800)
And he's like, who built this?
Lex Fridman (3:59:52.800)
And Rourke said, I did.
Lex Fridman (3:59:54.720)
And the line is, you know, Rourke didn't realize it, but he just gave that kid the
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (3:59:58.240)
courage to face the lifetime.
Lex Fridman (40:04.640)
society imagined, not what, it's not about you in their minds.
Lex Fridman (40:09.640)
And I've seen it, I see it all around me.
Lex Fridman (40:12.800)
People putting their kids down, putting themselves down.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (40:15.700)
It's not healthy.
Lex Fridman (40:16.700)
I've never told this story, I'm going to tell it now.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (40:19.080)
When I graduated college, I was a temp for a while because I didn't know what I wanted
Lex Fridman (40:24.160)
to do.
Lex Fridman (40:25.160)
Right?
Lex Fridman (40:26.160)
And when you're a temp, it's like playing roulette.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (40:27.160)
You're going to have jobs that pay well, that suck, and pay well that are great or that
Lex Fridman (40:31.480)
are great that don't pay well and suck and pay poorly.
Lex Fridman (40:35.020)
But it's you and you're 21, you have that kind of space.
Lex Fridman (40:38.560)
And my grandmother was talking to her brother, you know, he's talking about his kids, she's
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (40:43.160)
talking about me, she's, you know, from Odessa.
Lex Fridman (40:45.820)
And she told me she lied to him about how much money I was making.
Lex Fridman (40:50.740)
And that's something I've never brought up and it still hurts me.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (40:54.000)
Because it's like, your approval of me should be a function of my character, my happiness.
Lex Fridman (41:02.560)
And the fact that you feel ashamed over how much money I'm making, especially at this
Lex Fridman (41:06.920)
point in my life, I thought was very, really misplaced priorities.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (41:11.560)
Yeah, absolutely.
Lex Fridman (41:12.560)
I don't know.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (41:13.560)
I don't know what to make of that.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (41:15.400)
I think there's a huge benefit to the humility, terms aside, for believing that others can
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (41:23.160)
teach you a lot.
Lex Fridman (41:24.160)
Everybody, everybody can teach you a lot.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (41:25.160)
I think we all agree on that.
Lex Fridman (41:26.160)
I just mentioned that, the mechanic.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (41:27.160)
No, you do.
Lex Fridman (41:28.160)
Exactly.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (41:29.160)
Exactly the point.
Lex Fridman (41:30.160)
But for that, I do believe you have to not constantly sort of break your ego apart and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (41:37.760)
constantly question whether you know anything about this world and sort of there's a negativity
Lex Fridman (41:43.880)
with it that I think is very useful.
Lex Fridman (41:46.800)
And it's also very fulfilling, just constantly.
Lex Fridman (41:50.920)
I don't know.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (41:51.920)
It's the other way around.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (41:52.920)
I find that the more, the more I know, the more I know I know, the easier it is for me
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (41:58.340)
to learn from other people.
Lex Fridman (42:00.360)
The broader a context I have, the more curious I become, the more areas I know.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (42:06.600)
You know, it's true that the more you know, the more areas you know you don't know.
Lex Fridman (42:10.440)
And the more I find myself attracted to people who can teach me something about things I
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (42:14.680)
don't know.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (42:15.680)
Whereas if I was ignorant, if I truly believed I didn't know anything, I don't know how I
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (42:21.520)
would live.
Lex Fridman (42:22.520)
It would really completely challenge everything, everything about life for me.
Lex Fridman (42:28.640)
Where would I even start?
Lex Fridman (42:29.740)
You wouldn't know where to start.
Lex Fridman (42:31.000)
So no, I think, and if you don't recognize what you know, you don't have a full appreciation
Lex Fridman (42:36.200)
of yourself.
Lex Fridman (42:37.700)
So really building a recognition of what do I know, right?
Lex Fridman (42:41.680)
And how much do I know is really crucial to living.
Lex Fridman (42:45.640)
And I'll tell you something else that furthers my life enormously is when you reach a certain
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (42:49.840)
point in your career in your life, and you're talking to people who are a lot younger, and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (42:53.480)
they might be smart, driven, intelligent, they lack data.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (42:57.160)
When you're 23, you don't know how to speak corporate, you don't know what the code words
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (43:00.080)
are.
Lex Fridman (43:01.080)
So if I am in a position to sit down with this kid and be like, do X, Y, and Z, and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (43:05.400)
here's why I'm coming to this conclusion.
Lex Fridman (43:06.940)
This is the information that released me this conclusion.
Lex Fridman (43:09.740)
And I can save them from some of the suffering I went through.
Lex Fridman (43:13.560)
That is very gratifying.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (43:15.600)
It's making the world a better place.
Lex Fridman (43:17.480)
And it's also the opposite in a sense of humility, because like, in this context, I'm an expert,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (43:22.160)
or at least knowledgeable enough that I'm comfortable giving you advice.
Lex Fridman (43:25.000)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (43:26.000)
And look, everything I do is about me knowing stuff that other people don't.
Lex Fridman (43:29.840)
And I know a lot of stuff other people don't, and I do.
Lex Fridman (43:32.860)
And it's fun.
Lex Fridman (43:34.400)
I'm a teacher.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (43:35.400)
I'm a teacher at heart, always have been.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (43:36.640)
It turns out, I didn't know that early on, but I like becoming an expert and then trying
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (43:42.400)
to teach people.
Lex Fridman (43:43.400)
It doesn't mean I know everything.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (43:45.100)
Quite the contrary.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (43:46.100)
Again, the more I know, the more I know that the certain things I don't know and the certain
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (43:49.480)
areas of expertise I don't have.
Lex Fridman (43:51.360)
But look, pride is a broader concept than that.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (43:54.080)
Pride is about, and humility is the opposite of pride.
Lex Fridman (43:57.440)
And Christianity has that right.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (43:59.040)
Pride is about taking your life seriously.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (44:01.220)
Pride is about wanting to be really good at living, wanting to have the knowledge.
Lex Fridman (44:07.800)
And I think what you're describing is, you're describing as I'm constantly learning.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (44:12.880)
Sometimes I have to challenge myself, I have to question what I believe in order to gain
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (44:16.840)
new knowledge.
Lex Fridman (44:17.840)
That's all good, but that is a drive that is driven by pride.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (44:23.160)
You want to know.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (44:24.160)
There are lots of people out there that don't want to know, because they don't have that
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (44:28.800)
pride.
Lex Fridman (44:29.800)
They don't have that commitment to live, the commitment to achieving something.
Lex Fridman (44:34.200)
And I'm going to say something else that I think is crucial.
Lex Fridman (44:36.720)
Humility is extremely important when it comes to politics.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (44:40.480)
Because if you feel comfortable telling someone you've never met how to live their life, that
Lex Fridman (44:46.240)
is a complete lack of humility.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (44:48.800)
I lack it, obviously, because I tell people how to live all the time.
Lex Fridman (44:51.240)
Not through force.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (44:52.240)
Not through force.
Lex Fridman (44:53.240)
That's what I'm saying.
Lex Fridman (44:54.240)
And of course, not in the concrete.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (44:55.240)
I don't tell them, you know, move to, although I do tell them to move to Austin, but I don't
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (44:59.200)
tell them this is what you do as a profession.
Lex Fridman (45:01.800)
But I give them the principles, because I think they're principles of how to live.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (45:03.800)
They're making the choice.
Lex Fridman (45:04.800)
That's my point.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (45:05.800)
Politically, what I'm saying is it shows a lack of humility to be like, I've never met
Lex Fridman (45:09.880)
this person.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (45:10.960)
This is how I'm going to take money from him.
Lex Fridman (45:12.960)
I'm going to...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (45:13.960)
See, but I don't see that humility.
Lex Fridman (45:14.960)
There's nothing...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (45:15.960)
No, it's the lack of humility.
Lex Fridman (45:16.960)
No, but it's not even a lack of humility, because it's...
Lex Fridman (45:19.680)
Who am I to tell them how to live?
Lex Fridman (45:21.040)
That's lack of humility.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (45:22.040)
No, of course you're not.
Lex Fridman (45:23.040)
No, who are you to tell them how to live is an issue of...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (45:26.400)
It's an issue of force and rights and a bunch of different things.
Lex Fridman (45:30.720)
I don't think it's a lack of humility there.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (45:32.880)
I think it's a lack of being a human being.
Lex Fridman (45:34.960)
It can be both.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (45:37.160)
Sure.
Lex Fridman (45:38.160)
I think it's, who gives you the right to dictate to somebody else how to live their lives?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (45:43.080)
Yeah, but that's a lack of humility, if you think you have that right.
Lex Fridman (45:46.120)
Again, we're using humility in a very different way.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (45:49.000)
No, we're using the same way, because the person who feels comfortable, they think,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (45:53.240)
I know better than you how you should live your life to the point where I'm a couple
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (45:58.680)
forcing you, because I know it's gonna be best for you in the long run.
Lex Fridman (46:01.520)
And the answer is you don't know.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (46:02.760)
Right, but that's a lack of humility.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (46:04.600)
I think in your mind, you're on humility somehow tied to the Christian concept, the humility,
Lex Fridman (46:09.360)
and so you're kind of allergic to the word.
Lex Fridman (46:11.240)
Well, absolutely, because it's part of...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (46:12.680)
If you look at the cardinal virtues, the cardinal sins in Christianity, pride is a cardinal
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (46:19.200)
sin and humility is a cardinal virtue, but they don't mean it in the sense, because they're
Lex Fridman (46:25.640)
happy to tell you how to live, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (46:27.720)
They're happy to be philosopher kings over your life, and they believe that's being humble.
Lex Fridman (46:31.760)
And you should be humble, by the way, in listening to the Pope or listening to God, because what
Lex Fridman (46:35.960)
do you know?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (46:36.960)
You know nothing.
Lex Fridman (46:37.960)
God knows everything, so you should shut up and do what you're told.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (46:41.720)
That's the sense in which I don't think you should be humble.
Lex Fridman (46:43.920)
I mean, it's a sense in which I always use the example of Abraham, right?
Lex Fridman (46:48.080)
God comes to Abraham and says, go kill your oldest son, your only son, right?
Lex Fridman (46:53.000)
Your only son.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (46:54.000)
Go kill him.
Lex Fridman (46:55.000)
It's like...
Lex Fridman (46:56.000)
And what does Abraham do?
Lex Fridman (46:57.000)
He says, yes, sir.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (46:58.000)
I'll follow...
Lex Fridman (46:59.000)
And he's a moral hero, for Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, he's a moral hero, because he follows
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (47:04.080)
orders, because he's humble.
Lex Fridman (47:06.120)
I would tell God to go to hell.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (47:09.160)
Screw you.
Lex Fridman (47:10.160)
I'm not killing my son.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (47:11.160)
There's no way.
Lex Fridman (47:12.160)
But he killed...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (47:13.160)
I mean, he killed his son, so it's only fair.
Lex Fridman (47:14.160)
Well, this is before he killed his son, so I didn't know that, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (47:17.560)
No, but part of the evil, part of the evil of Christianity is that he's killed his son
Lex Fridman (47:21.680)
in the most torturous form of death possible.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (47:25.440)
I mean, the whole story of Jesus is one of the most immoral, unjust stories ever told,
Lex Fridman (47:30.400)
and that Christians elevate this to a position of...
Lex Fridman (47:33.080)
I'd love to have this conversation with Jordan, right?
Lex Fridman (47:35.160)
Jordan Peterson.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (47:36.160)
The idea of elevating...
Lex Fridman (47:37.160)
That'll never happen.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (47:38.160)
No, it won't.
Lex Fridman (47:39.160)
But elevating Jesus, exactly, elevating Jesus to a superhero status for one of the most
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (47:43.760)
immoral acts in human history is horrific.
Lex Fridman (47:47.320)
So yeah, I mean, I'm opposed to God sacrificing his own son, never mind my son, but let him
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (47:52.560)
go do it to his own son.
Lex Fridman (47:53.560)
But he didn't kill Isaac.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (47:54.560)
He killed the goat.
Lex Fridman (47:55.560)
The story's about Abraham, not about God.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (47:57.640)
First of all, God is mean, right, to put Abraham through that.
Lex Fridman (48:01.560)
But Abraham has to assume that he's going to kill his son, and he lifts his...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (48:06.300)
He's going to do it, and he stopped.
Lex Fridman (48:08.920)
So the whole point is obedience.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (48:10.980)
That's what humility leads to.
Lex Fridman (48:12.680)
It leads to the opposite of the story you were telling.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (48:14.940)
It leads to people saying, yes, I should be told what to do.
Lex Fridman (48:17.440)
Where's the authority who actually knows something?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (48:19.680)
I don't know anything.
Lex Fridman (48:20.840)
No, I know a lot, and I know a lot about my life.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (48:23.760)
The science...
Lex Fridman (48:24.760)
So you stay away from my life because I have pride in my life.
Lex Fridman (48:27.200)
The science is settled, right?
Lex Fridman (48:28.920)
Look at these experts.
Lex Fridman (48:29.920)
Who am I to argue with these experts?
Lex Fridman (48:31.100)
They tell me to drink dog pee.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (48:32.800)
I'm going to drink...
Lex Fridman (48:33.800)
What am I, not drink dog pee?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (48:34.800)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (48:35.800)
Yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (48:36.800)
Let's go back to the island.
Lex Fridman (48:37.800)
Speaking of which...
Lex Fridman (48:38.800)
We're on an island again?
Lex Fridman (48:39.800)
We're back to the island.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (48:40.800)
Manhattan.
Lex Fridman (48:41.800)
And let's go to the island.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (48:43.640)
Let's...
Lex Fridman (48:44.640)
I live on an island.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (48:47.080)
Everything is an island in some context.
Lex Fridman (48:49.760)
Like Earth is an island.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (48:51.640)
This universe is an island in a multiverse.
Lex Fridman (48:54.040)
There's no multiverses.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (48:55.440)
There's only one universe.
Lex Fridman (48:57.160)
All right.
Lex Fridman (48:58.160)
So let's invite Jordan Peterson to this island.
Lex Fridman (49:01.520)
You wish.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (49:02.520)
Hold on.
Lex Fridman (49:03.520)
Hold on a sec.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (49:04.520)
Hey, girl.
Lex Fridman (49:05.520)
Whatcha doing?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (49:06.520)
Lex.
Lex Fridman (49:07.520)
Lex Friedman?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (49:08.520)
Look him up.
Lex Fridman (49:09.520)
Lex who?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (49:10.520)
Yeah, exactly.
Lex Fridman (49:11.520)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (49:12.520)
Lex who?
Lex Fridman (49:13.520)
I don't know, Lex says something as big of a following almost as Jordan does.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (49:18.480)
I know Jordan.
Lex Fridman (49:19.480)
I know his family actually through Jim Keller, who's his relative.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (49:22.840)
He's an engineer.
Lex Fridman (49:23.840)
And I just talked to Sam, who is perhaps a little bit aligned in some sense on your perspective
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (49:32.840)
on religion and so on.
Lex Fridman (49:34.560)
So let me ask, is there some...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (49:35.880)
Religion, yes.
Lex Fridman (49:36.880)
But...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (49:37.880)
Other things, no.
Lex Fridman (49:38.880)
Sam Harris.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (49:39.880)
Sam Harris, yeah.
Lex Fridman (49:40.880)
Oh, sorry.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (49:41.880)
Sam Harris.
Lex Fridman (49:42.880)
I thought you were talking about baseball.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (49:43.880)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (49:44.880)
I just talked to Sam.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (49:45.880)
I thought...
Lex Fridman (49:46.880)
Let's talk about humility.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (49:47.880)
Let's talk about humility, Lex.
Lex Fridman (49:48.880)
My buddy Sam.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (49:49.880)
I was talking to Barack.
Lex Fridman (49:50.880)
You might know him.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (49:51.880)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (49:52.880)
I simply...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (49:53.880)
Humility went out the window.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (49:55.880)
I'm just a natural language processing model that I assume that once I mentioned Jordan
Lex Fridman (4:00:00.080)
And I think that is such a beautiful thing where you can find inspiration in this character.
Lex Fridman (4:00:06.360)
Don't become needlessly difficult.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:00:08.440)
Don't start parroting his lines.
Lex Fridman (4:00:10.020)
You're not Howard Rourke and he's not a real person.
Lex Fridman (4:00:12.920)
But there's aspects of him that you can apply to your life.
Lex Fridman (4:00:16.580)
And here's something else.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:00:17.580)
I'll give you one example because this happened to me.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:00:20.080)
When I was working at Goldman Sachs, I was doing tech support and my great grandmother
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:00:23.800)
had passed away that year.
Lex Fridman (4:00:25.400)
And I promised my grandmother I would have – I've told this story several times.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:00:28.800)
I would have Thanksgiving dinner with her.
Lex Fridman (4:00:30.960)
I was working second shift, fort to midnight, and we were a 24 seven help desk.
Lex Fridman (4:00:35.740)
And I got the schedule for the next week and I sold my grandmother to have lunch with
Lex Fridman (4:00:39.640)
her at Thanksgiving.
Lex Fridman (4:00:40.900)
And they had put me down from fort to midnight the day before Wednesday, which is my normal
Lex Fridman (4:00:44.680)
shift, but then the day shift the next day.
Lex Fridman (4:00:47.160)
And I go to my boss, I go – first off, second shift, I'm like, this Thanksgiving, I promised
Lex Fridman (4:00:50.840)
my grandma.
Lex Fridman (4:00:51.920)
And they're like, well, if you could find someone to fill this, we'll do it.
Lex Fridman (4:00:54.560)
And I asked everyone.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:00:55.560)
They're like, no.
Lex Fridman (4:00:56.560)
And I said, I'm not coming in.
Lex Fridman (4:00:58.580)
And I 100%, not even a question, if I asked my grandmother, can we have dinner instead,
Lex Fridman (4:01:03.440)
she would have said yes.
Lex Fridman (4:01:04.680)
But this was one of those moments, maybe this is from my huge ego where I felt like I was
Lex Fridman (4:01:08.320)
in a movie and I'm making a choice.
Lex Fridman (4:01:10.280)
Am I going to ask grandma?
Lex Fridman (4:01:12.880)
Or am I going to just bend the knee?
Lex Fridman (4:01:15.100)
And I go, I go, I couldn't find anyone and I go, I'm not coming in.
Lex Fridman (4:01:19.280)
And they go, if you're not coming in, you're fired.
Lex Fridman (4:01:21.600)
And I go, fire me.
Lex Fridman (4:01:23.160)
And they did fire me.
Lex Fridman (4:01:24.880)
And I have no regrets.
Lex Fridman (4:01:27.080)
And because if I compromised, I'd have money in my pocket.
Lex Fridman (4:01:31.120)
But since I didn't compromise, I could look at that story.
Lex Fridman (4:01:34.080)
Rand talks about how man is a being of self made soul.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:01:36.840)
I could look at that story, and next time, I have a time where it's a tough decision,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:01:42.280)
where there's really pressure, I could be like, you know what, this is the kind of person
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:01:45.920)
you are.
Lex Fridman (4:01:47.140)
Stick to it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:01:48.140)
I'll give one more example.
Lex Fridman (4:01:49.140)
Sorry, you're on.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:01:50.140)
I've given talks on networking.
Lex Fridman (4:01:51.760)
And I tell people, I like to use humor, because humor is a great way to shortcut the brain
Lex Fridman (4:01:55.620)
and get the truth to them directly.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:01:57.160)
I say, if you know someone is in town, it's their birthday, and they're not doing anything,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:02:04.240)
take them out.
Lex Fridman (4:02:05.240)
And I say, I do this for Rand reasons.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:02:06.360)
I do it selfishly.
Lex Fridman (4:02:07.360)
And the audience laughs.
Lex Fridman (4:02:08.720)
And I go, you're laughing.
Lex Fridman (4:02:09.720)
But I go, the guy who takes people out for their birthday is awesome.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:02:14.840)
That could be you.
Lex Fridman (4:02:15.840)
There's nothing stopping you.
Lex Fridman (4:02:16.840)
You're just not thinking in these terms, what's it going to cost you $30?
Lex Fridman (4:02:20.280)
But for the rest of their life, or a few years, that person will remember you and be like,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:02:24.360)
you know what, this person did right by me.
Lex Fridman (4:02:27.160)
And I'll give you a concrete example, which changed my life profoundly.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:02:31.400)
Ted Hope, who was the producer of the film American Splendor, which starred my mentor
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:02:35.960)
Harvey Pekar, sent an email to his firm that said Harvey's in town with nothing to do.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:02:42.200)
If you want to hang out with him, here's your chance.
Lex Fridman (4:02:44.400)
They worked at a film company.
Lex Fridman (4:02:46.080)
And I was the only one, I got the email, I wasn't working there from a friend who took
Lex Fridman (4:02:51.000)
him up on it.
Lex Fridman (4:02:52.200)
And as a consequence, Harvey wrote a graphic novel about me, Ego and Hubris, which is $250
Lex Fridman (4:02:55.520)
on eBay now, and it moves at that, not too shabby.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:02:58.400)
The point being, you know what, someone had a movie made about him.
Lex Fridman (4:03:03.620)
Someone is an interesting figure.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:03:05.000)
Take the lunch and stay overtime for an hour.
Lex Fridman (4:03:07.960)
But so many people don't think in those terms.
Lex Fridman (4:03:11.160)
And there's so many opportunities for them.
Lex Fridman (4:03:12.960)
And so that's the advice I give.
Lex Fridman (4:03:14.480)
And I think it's also good to give advice via anecdote.
Lex Fridman (4:03:17.560)
So not only is the person getting the advice, they are learning why you got to that point.
Lex Fridman (4:03:21.880)
And maybe I'm wrong, but at least they've thought about it.
Lex Fridman (4:03:24.240)
Yeah, I mean, I agree with all of that.
Lex Fridman (4:03:26.200)
And I like the line, Ayn Rand's line about man is a self made soul, is a creature of
Lex Fridman (4:03:31.160)
self made soul is huge.
Lex Fridman (4:03:33.680)
And it's something most people don't realize, and it's something that modern intellectuals
Lex Fridman (4:03:37.880)
undermine.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:03:38.880)
I mean, even somebody like Sam Harris, when you keep telling people they don't have free
Lex Fridman (4:03:43.240)
will, then you don't have a self made soul.
Lex Fridman (4:03:46.000)
Because what is self made, there is no self, according to Sam, right?
Lex Fridman (4:03:49.840)
He meditates and he sees that he doesn't have a self.
Lex Fridman (4:03:52.760)
So you're undermining the ability of people to take control of their own lives and make
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:03:59.200)
the kind of choices that are necessary to create the kind of moral character that is
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:04:03.880)
necessary for them to be successful.
Lex Fridman (4:04:05.600)
So I'd encourage people to go read Foundhead and Atlas Shrugged because put aside the politics,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:04:12.280)
put aside even aspects of the philosophy, focus on these models.
Lex Fridman (4:04:19.760)
How to Walk is a great model for all of us.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:04:22.560)
It's a great story to have in your head, in your mind when you encounter challenging choices
Lex Fridman (4:04:28.140)
that you might make.
Lex Fridman (4:04:30.520)
And then spend the time, and this is, I don't think I ever did this when I was young, I
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:04:35.520)
don't think people do this, but spend the time thinking about what your values really
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:04:39.120)
are.
Lex Fridman (4:04:40.120)
What do you love doing?
Lex Fridman (4:04:42.460)
What makes, what gets you going?
Lex Fridman (4:04:44.980)
What gets you excited?
Lex Fridman (4:04:46.720)
And how can I make a living at this?
Lex Fridman (4:04:50.060)
How can I do this and live through this?
Lex Fridman (4:04:53.560)
And then, you know, think about what kind of life you want, what kind of, I don't know,
Lex Fridman (4:04:58.120)
what kind of people you want to hang out with.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:04:59.680)
Don't just, don't let life just happen to you.
Lex Fridman (4:05:03.720)
Think it through.
Lex Fridman (4:05:04.720)
What kind of people, for example, if you want ambitious, excited, maybe you should move
Lex Fridman (4:05:07.840)
to Silicon Valley, to Austin, Texas, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:05:11.160)
If you want to be around artsy people, I mean, you should go to Hollywood, maybe you should
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:05:14.680)
go to New York, you know, I don't know, but figure out what kind of life you want to live,
Lex Fridman (4:05:20.120)
what kind of people you want to hang out with, what kind of woman you want to spend your
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:05:23.200)
life with, what kind of romantic relationship you want to have, figure that out and go and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:05:28.640)
do it.
Lex Fridman (4:05:29.640)
Don't sit around.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:05:30.640)
Life is not...
Lex Fridman (4:05:31.640)
Or try and fail.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:05:32.640)
It's okay.
Lex Fridman (4:05:33.640)
You're going to fail.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:05:34.640)
Oh, failure, failure, absolutely.
Lex Fridman (4:05:35.640)
Don't fail.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:05:36.640)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (4:05:37.640)
And learn from that failure.
Lex Fridman (4:05:38.640)
And that's another thing.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:05:39.640)
Think about what you're doing, why you're succeeding, why you're failing, and keep improving.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:05:41.800)
Keep working on it because it's not just going to happen like this.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:05:44.160)
Nobody is Francisco to take a character out of Atlas Shark, to succeed at everything,
Lex Fridman (4:05:48.560)
first try, right?
Lex Fridman (4:05:50.380)
We all need to fail a few times.
Lex Fridman (4:05:51.720)
We all need to, but what have you got to lose?
Lex Fridman (4:05:56.200)
Every second is never going to be back.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:05:58.760)
I mean, these are all cliches, but they're all true cliches.
Lex Fridman (4:06:02.440)
So think, figure out what your values are, and try to apply your reason, your rational
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:06:11.420)
thought on getting those values.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:06:14.360)
We talked about early on in the show, in the interview, we talked about integrating your
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:06:18.760)
emotions with your cognition.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:06:21.200)
I think that's crucial because you don't want to be fighting your emotions as you move towards
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:06:24.880)
these things.
Lex Fridman (4:06:25.880)
You don't want your emotions to be barriers to your own success.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:06:28.400)
You want them to be cheerleaders, to chew on when good things happen and to be negative
Lex Fridman (4:06:35.280)
emotions when it's justified that they're negative.
Lex Fridman (4:06:38.320)
So work on integrating your soul.
Lex Fridman (4:06:41.000)
So creating your own soul, that's the real challenge.
Lex Fridman (4:06:44.180)
And I'll give one piece of meta advice.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:06:46.420)
When you're young, you're going to be clueless because you're going to be ignorant, you know
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:06:49.520)
the data.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:06:50.700)
Don't ask your dopey friends for advice because they want to be helpful, but the friends want
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:06:56.360)
to be helpful.
Lex Fridman (4:06:57.360)
They're as dopey as you.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:06:58.360)
They have uninformed as you.
Lex Fridman (4:06:59.640)
So they're just going to give you platitudes and you're going to be worse off because now
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:07:02.560)
you're going to be confused, especially with social media.
Lex Fridman (4:07:06.180)
Reach out to people who are older than you, who are accomplished.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:07:09.320)
You'd be surprised how often that you got to send them 20 bucks, buy them dinner, buy
Lex Fridman (4:07:13.040)
their book, whatever it takes.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:07:15.320)
You are getting free world class advice for very cheap and that is really a mechanism
Lex Fridman (4:07:22.360)
for success.
Lex Fridman (4:07:23.360)
And here's something very unpopular and not sexy.
Lex Fridman (4:07:25.760)
This is why people probably unfollow me.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:07:28.320)
That's not why.
Lex Fridman (4:07:29.320)
Read.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:07:30.320)
Well, you'll tell me why after this.
Lex Fridman (4:07:32.040)
Read, read, read.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:07:33.440)
Because you're not always going to have access to those experts.
Lex Fridman (4:07:36.760)
And I'm not just talking about self help books.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:07:39.280)
I'm not even talking about self help books.
Lex Fridman (4:07:41.240)
Read the words with literature.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:07:42.520)
I mean, literature presents you with all the different characters.
Lex Fridman (4:07:47.280)
You know, read Dostoevsky, right?
Lex Fridman (4:07:50.960)
Read Hugo, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:07:52.760)
Read all these authors that have taken time to really create characters and put them in
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:07:56.840)
situations that maybe you will never face those exact situations, but you'll face similar
Lex Fridman (4:08:01.280)
situations and they play it out for you.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:08:04.580)
You'll see what the consequences are.
Lex Fridman (4:08:06.920)
Great literature is a real tool for building your soul.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:08:10.500)
Read generally with literature and particularly because it's more conceptual.
Lex Fridman (4:08:14.840)
What maybe you could speak to love and relationship in your own life, but in general, if we look
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:08:20.720)
at Alice Shrugged, if we look at Fountainhead, and maybe this is going to become a therapy
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:08:26.360)
session for Lex, but also just looking at your own life in a form of advice, how can
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:08:32.680)
you be a heroic Reardon type character and live your life to the fullest in creating
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:08:41.160)
the most amazing things that you're able to create and yet have others in your life that
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:08:48.040)
you give yourself to in terms of loving them fully and having a family, having kids, but
Lex Fridman (4:08:54.000)
just even just the love of your life kind of thing.
Lex Fridman (4:08:57.840)
How do you balance those things together?
Lex Fridman (4:09:00.240)
Is there any anything to say?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:09:02.320)
I'll say one thing because then I'll defer to you, Ron, because he's the one who's married
Lex Fridman (4:09:05.000)
here.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:09:06.000)
I don't think it's a balance.
Lex Fridman (4:09:07.080)
I think they compliment each other and feed off each other.
Lex Fridman (4:09:09.560)
So it's like, how do you balance having shoes and pants?
Lex Fridman (4:09:12.240)
It's like, no, you want both.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:09:14.040)
You want it all.
Lex Fridman (4:09:15.040)
And having a great partner who thinks you're a badass and then sometimes they're on the
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:09:19.560)
stage and you're like, oh my, I'm married to a badass.
Lex Fridman (4:09:22.320)
That's the goal.
Lex Fridman (4:09:23.320)
Am I wrong?
Lex Fridman (4:09:24.320)
No, absolutely.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:09:25.320)
It feeds off of each other.
Lex Fridman (4:09:26.320)
It's synergetic.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:09:27.320)
It's completely synergetic.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:09:28.320)
The problem that people have, I think, where they get into challenges is when they view
Lex Fridman (4:09:33.160)
them as opposites, right?
Lex Fridman (4:09:35.080)
Work or family.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:09:36.080)
Well, if you don't work the family, you can't finance the family, but more than that.
Lex Fridman (4:09:42.800)
Why is your wife going to love you?
Lex Fridman (4:09:45.720)
What are the virtues that you're bringing?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:09:47.360)
If you don't maximize your own potential, if you don't live the best life that you can
Lex Fridman (4:09:51.080)
live, what is it to love?
Lex Fridman (4:09:52.840)
And if she doesn't do the same thing, why do you love her?
Lex Fridman (4:09:56.640)
So you don't get this conflict between work and, you know, how do I have a balanced life?
Lex Fridman (4:10:02.080)
Of course you have a balanced life.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:10:03.560)
You balance it based on your values and it's never going to be the same.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:10:07.200)
The balance is, you know, the time you spend at work and with family when you're young
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:10:12.320)
or when you have little kids or when they're grown up is all going to be different.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:10:15.880)
It's going to depend on your priorities at the point, but it's all going to feed off
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:10:19.280)
of each other.
Lex Fridman (4:10:20.280)
So maybe another word outside of balance is sacrifice.
Lex Fridman (4:10:23.160)
Do you think relationship involves sacrifice or no?
Lex Fridman (4:10:25.560)
Does he know what he's doing?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:10:26.560)
I know.
Lex Fridman (4:10:27.560)
He's trolling you.
Lex Fridman (4:10:28.560)
Is he trolling me?
Lex Fridman (4:10:29.560)
He's a big troll.
Lex Fridman (4:10:30.560)
Is he trolling me?
Lex Fridman (4:10:31.560)
Never.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:10:32.560)
Lex is the biggest troll on Twitter.
Lex Fridman (4:10:33.560)
Ever.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:10:34.560)
Ever.
Lex Fridman (4:10:35.560)
Ever.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:10:36.560)
Ever sacrifice.
Lex Fridman (4:10:37.560)
Deal with it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:10:38.560)
Never sacrifice.
Lex Fridman (4:10:39.560)
Never sacrifice.
Lex Fridman (4:10:40.560)
But see, he means sacrifice in the context.
Lex Fridman (4:10:41.560)
I know.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:10:42.560)
I know.
Lex Fridman (4:10:43.560)
So I'm going to define it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:10:44.560)
Yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (4:10:45.560)
Okay.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:10:46.560)
Sacrifice in my world.
Lex Fridman (4:10:47.560)
Can I say one thing before we get sidebar?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:10:48.560)
Rand had a good example when he was talking about balance.
Lex Fridman (4:10:49.560)
So she was married to this guy, Frank O. Connor.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:10:50.560)
He was not a cerebral.
Lex Fridman (4:10:51.560)
He was not intellectual.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:10:52.560)
That's fine.
Lex Fridman (4:10:53.560)
She was in love with him.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:10:54.560)
She was a fan.
Lex Fridman (4:10:55.560)
And a lot of times she'd have these conversations with her acolytes till like four in the morning
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:10:58.040)
about the most cerebral topics.
Lex Fridman (4:10:59.880)
And I said, he would always bring them food.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:11:01.560)
He'd stay up and kind of sit there in a corner and I go, when this was happening, was he
Lex Fridman (4:11:06.480)
sitting there like, oh God, here goes crazy old Ein and I just got to be bored?
Lex Fridman (4:11:09.800)
And they go, absolutely not.
Lex Fridman (4:11:12.040)
He was so proud of her.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:11:14.120)
He was so excited.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:11:15.700)
In fact, when she got a lot of money from, I think selling Red Pawn, which was her screenplay,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:11:19.980)
which never produced, he told her you can buy any kind of fur coat as long as it's
Lex Fridman (4:11:24.320)
Mink, he's like, you earn this, celebrate it, so that was a good example.
Lex Fridman (4:11:29.040)
And that's a good relationship, absolutely. Now, sacrifice is the giving of a value and
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:11:35.120)
expecting either nothing or something less in return. You don't do that in a love relationship.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:11:41.440)
Your love relationship is a sense, a trait. You're constantly trading. You're not trading
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:11:46.960)
materially, but you're trading spiritually. Imagine if I only gave my wife, if I gave
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:11:53.280)
spiritually and materially, only in one direction. I'd get sick of it. She'd get sick of it. It
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:11:58.240)
would never last. It has to be in give and take constantly, in different ways, different values.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:12:04.720)
It's not a monetary exchange, but it's constantly you're giving and you're receiving and you're
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:12:10.400)
giving. And that's got to be in balance. And I know a lot of relationships where that gets out
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:12:16.480)
of balance. And one party feels like they're giving all the time, they're sacrificing.
Lex Fridman (4:12:22.000)
They're giving more than they're receiving, in a sense. And it's over.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:12:27.200)
Now, people use the word sacrifice, like Jordan Peterson. He uses it both ways. That's a problem.
Lex Fridman (4:12:32.880)
You know Jordan?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:12:33.840)
I don't know him personally. Jordan Peterson, I said. I didn't call him Jordan.
Lex Fridman (4:12:37.040)
Just wanted to be clear.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:12:38.000)
Yeah. He uses it in his talks as... Sometimes he uses it just as I described it,
Lex Fridman (4:12:43.440)
and he's supportive of that, like the sacrifice Jesus made. And sometimes he uses it as an
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:12:47.840)
investment. But it's not. If you're giving money now, expecting a bigger return in the future,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:12:55.040)
that's not a sacrifice. That's an investment. That's why we have two concepts for that.
Lex Fridman (4:12:58.960)
And the same is true if my wife is ill. And I've got a whole relationship built around what I'm
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:13:07.120)
giving. It's not that I'm not getting anything back. What I'm getting back is that she is
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:13:11.120)
recovering. Is that she's still alive or whatever it is that I'm keeping. That's the value that I'm
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:13:18.240)
getting in return. If I'm not getting that, why am I doing it? Because I signed a contract a long
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:13:23.360)
time ago. So it's not a sacrifice. Children are not a sacrifice. If I don't go to the movies,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:13:30.080)
because I stay at home with my kids, it's because I love my kids more than I love going to the
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:13:34.560)
movies. And if I love going to the movies more than I love staying with the kids, then get a
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:13:39.040)
babysitter or don't have kids, which is the better approach. Here's a question. What book did Ayn Rand
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:13:46.480)
say is the most evil book in all of serious literature? It was Anna Karenina. And the reason
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:13:51.280)
it was that book, which I haven't read, please correct me if I get the plot wrong. What Rand was
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:13:54.960)
saying is the plot is a guy who's a big shot, I think. He marries a stupid girl who has nothing
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:13:59.600)
of value to offer him for at all. And she ends up killing herself. Whereas Rand's version, and we
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:14:04.000)
can take this out of the romantic context. I am delighted when I could be of use to my friends.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:14:10.320)
It makes me feel wonderful and not in a kind of parasitic way. It's just like that I'm at a
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:14:15.520)
certain point where they call me up, they're having a problem and I've helped them with that problem.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:14:19.360)
Anna Karenina, he gives up the love of his life. Oh, is that what it is? The amazing girl.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:14:26.320)
He has an affair with her outside of marriage, taints her, is married to the stupid, but she gives
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:14:32.640)
him the prestige and everything. Oh, that's clearly very anti Rand. And the smart, the one he loves,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:14:42.160)
she commits suicide in there. Okay, I got it wrong. So it's about him choosing
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:14:49.680)
mediocrity and nothingness over love. So pursuing your values is so crucial. So don't take it by
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:14:57.760)
saying, it doesn't mean that if you want to eat Chinese and she wants to eat Italian, you don't
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:15:01.920)
once in a while eat Italian on that day, right? That's silly, right? That's not a sacrifice,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:15:08.720)
not in the sense in which we're talking about. It doesn't mean don't compromise. It doesn't mean
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:15:13.840)
don't compromise on the day to day stuff. It means don't compromise on moral values. You don't
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:15:18.880)
compromise on the big stuff and you never sacrifice. And that way you have a relationship
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:15:25.200)
that's built as equals and as you admire each other and love at the end of the day is a response
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:15:32.880)
to value. If you stop undermining your own value, the person who loves you will stop loving you,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:15:41.760)
will love you less. If you love yourself less, you have to say, in order to say I love you,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:15:48.320)
you have to be able to say the I, right? You have to be somebody, you have to know yourself,
Lex Fridman (4:15:54.560)
you have to have value. And so love is a profound emotional response to value.
Lex Fridman (4:16:02.080)
So speaking of love and the three of us being on this deserted island for a time together,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:16:07.280)
somehow not murdering each other, let me ask you, Yaron, Michael, what is the most beautiful thing
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:16:16.160)
you find about the other? So let's go Yaron first. What do you think about Michael,
Lex Fridman (4:16:21.040)
that you appreciate about him? What do you get these questions from? What do you love about Michael?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:16:29.040)
Then he's going to edit it. See, that makes sense to me. I just programmed him.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:16:33.440)
Press play. It's all just a prerecorded message. So I've never met Michael before,
Lex Fridman (4:16:37.920)
so this is my... That's not true. You have and you're...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:16:40.400)
I don't remember ever meeting Michael before. You're the very beginning of the new right,
Lex Fridman (4:16:44.800)
is me meeting you. I'm in the book?
Lex Fridman (4:16:47.280)
Yes. All right. Well, now I have to read his book
Lex Fridman (4:16:49.280)
because I mean, am I presented positively or negatively?
Lex Fridman (4:16:53.040)
Very. Oh, okay. Good.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:16:56.160)
Lex is not so sure. He's like...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:16:58.000)
I like that he goes, have I presented positively or negatively? I just go, very.
Lex Fridman (4:17:04.000)
And he's like, oh, good. I'm like, is it?
Lex Fridman (4:17:08.080)
So Michael Sharp, he's quick. He's funny, although some of the humor is beyond me.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:17:15.920)
That's a nice way of saying he's very intelligent.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:17:18.480)
Yeah. He's definitely very intelligent, but also very engaging. I think that's very engaging.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:17:26.640)
I'm a sharp dresser.
Lex Fridman (4:17:28.560)
Oh, he's definitely... Well, yeah. I compliment him on stuff that's obvious
Lex Fridman (4:17:32.560)
and everybody can see by the video. The sex appeal.
Lex Fridman (4:17:34.800)
Let me also just comment, one thing you mentioned about
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:17:38.000)
you deriving joy from being of value to your friends.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:17:42.880)
People talk to me about you sometimes because you'll do humor about various things and things
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:17:48.080)
like maybe you're some kind of a crazy person or something like that.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:17:53.520)
Yeah. I know you enjoy this aspect of it, but I say that the reason I'm friends with Michael
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:17:58.800)
is there's real love there. And the kind of kindness you give to your friends,
Lex Fridman (4:18:04.240)
to people that are close to you, to your family is amazing, man.
Lex Fridman (4:18:10.240)
So that's one of my favorite things about you. Your intellect aside, your philosophies aside,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:18:17.200)
your humor aside, I think there's a lot of love in you. That's what I really appreciate.
Lex Fridman (4:18:20.960)
But enough about you. I'm actually getting sick of saying nice things about you.
Lex Fridman (4:18:24.720)
You're always going to say it.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:18:27.120)
Take it all back.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:18:29.920)
Can I say one thing? You're joking, but this is something that's very key and this is something
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:18:34.960)
in a random context. It is very disturbing, and this is not by accident, how in our culture it is
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:18:42.560)
pooh poohed to show kindness, earnestness, appreciation, to tell someone. You see this
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:18:48.960)
on Twitter where someone's like, you know what? I read your book. It's made my life a lot better.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:18:53.520)
Okay, simp. And there's a real, and this very much comes out of urban media circles,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:18:59.600)
there's this real disdain for showing appreciation, for showing happiness, for showing kindness.
Lex Fridman (4:19:06.480)
And now that I've called it out, you'll notice it. But when you see how common it is and how people
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:19:11.680)
can't take compliments, the effects of that are extreme and extremely negative.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:19:17.200)
I got to say about Texas, one of the things, so Austin especially, I mean, I don't really
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:19:22.480)
fully know Texas, Texas, but Austin, the friendliness. There's a reason I've gotten
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:19:27.840)
fatter and been drinking a lot is all the friendliness from random people who are no
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:19:33.440)
longer random. They're just friends. I've made more friends in one week than I have in my entire
Lex Fridman (4:19:39.280)
stay in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Exactly. One and a half. You know what the number two means?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:19:46.640)
I've never counted up that high. So this is what happens when people are free.
Lex Fridman (4:19:52.720)
No. When people are free and individualistic,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:19:55.200)
it's exact opposite of what people believe. The more collectivist we are, the less free we are,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:20:00.800)
the nastier we are to one another. Individualists who are pursuing their own happiness are incredibly
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:20:05.600)
kind, friendly, and supportive people. Okay. And now your task with doing...
Lex Fridman (4:20:11.920)
Talk about bad juju.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:20:14.880)
To practice what you preach, is there in your soul that you can find one beautiful thing to
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:20:21.840)
say about Yaron now that you guys met for the first, second, or third time, or at least in
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:20:26.560)
book format? So that's an easy one. So what I like about Yaron is that I think he is taking
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:20:34.240)
one of the problems with maybe more old school objectivism is that they would just use Rand's
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:20:40.480)
arguments in Rand's way. And it's like, you're a parent, you're not adding anything, and you're
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:20:45.280)
not going to be better than her. So you give this talk about, I think you can compare, was it Bill
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:20:50.800)
Gates to who was the one who went to jail? Oh, Bernie Madoff.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:20:55.600)
To Bernie Madoff. And you make the point, you're like, does anyone here really think Bernie Madoff
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:21:00.480)
was happy? Like, yeah, he's successful and he's wealthy, but does he go to bed being like,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:21:04.800)
hey, I'm a great guy? No. And his son kills himself with all this tragedy that goes with him.
Lex Fridman (4:21:08.800)
So I think anyone who takes an ideology or worldview that I think is of value and adds to it
Lex Fridman (4:21:15.920)
and makes it and articulates it in a new way, I think is a great accomplishment. I like how
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:21:22.320)
uncompromising you are in your views of putting her views forward. And I like how you illustrate
Lex Fridman (4:21:31.920)
how silly it is to argue against anarchism. So I don't really have to do any of the work.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:21:37.520)
As for you, and this, I've thought this before many times, you're the first person I met who
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:21:44.000)
I come at, literally the first, other than my friend who I went to yeshiva with as a kid,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:21:48.400)
who I come at us, there was a line on friends where Ross and Rachel were thinking of dating,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:21:53.760)
right? And they go, if we start dating, it would be like the third date because they knew each
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:21:59.360)
other well. And then she's like, yeah, but it'd be like, so it's like a plus and a minus, like,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:22:02.400)
yeah, you're fast forwarding to seriousness, but it's also the fact that you and I have the same
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:22:06.960)
background. Like I can sit with your own or any of my other friends and try to explain it. The fact
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:22:12.320)
that intuitively you and I grew up the same. And I know that we have that background in common
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:22:18.480)
does create a bond because I feel even if I haven't told you certain things, you are going
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:22:23.680)
to understand me a lot better than many of my friends who've known me for a long time. I also
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:22:28.960)
really like how I feel. This is a very new age term, but I'm going to use it. I feel very seen
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:22:36.080)
when I talk to you. I think you see me for who I am. You appreciate me for who I am. And I also
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:22:43.200)
really like how, and this is increasingly common as my platform increases. So I'm very flattered
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:22:51.200)
by this. You understand what I'm trying to do and you don't try to get in the way, even though it's
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:22:56.240)
your show. You're like, okay, this guy's a performer. He's doing his thing. People appreciate
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:23:02.080)
it. I appreciate it. I'm not going to try to drive the car. And I think some people who are who are
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:23:08.960)
bad and I have not encountered this because I would shoot it down. But I think a lot of times
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:23:13.200)
people have a tendency when they're hosts to try to drive the car. And it's like these things work
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:23:19.600)
when we come in here. None of us prepare. You prepare by me. None of us talking beforehand
Lex Fridman (4:23:24.080)
and like make it spontaneous. And the audience really enjoys that more because they know it's
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:23:28.240)
real earnest and dynamic. Yeah. I enjoy having you drive the car, even though I believe you don't
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:23:34.320)
have a license. And you think we're going to crash. No, I think he's, he's an extraordinary
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:23:39.200)
interviewer because of all those things. He makes you feel visible. And, and he does, but he also
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:23:45.600)
comes across as really honest. The questions are really questions that you seem really interested
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:23:52.160)
in that you really want answers to. It doesn't come across as canned or I prepared my three
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:24:00.880)
book project. Thank you. Thank you, Michael. I was pretty sure that on a desert island,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:24:07.040)
this would end in murder, but now I believe it may. Well, given his comments on anarchy,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:24:12.480)
it might still. It might still. The day is young. The night is young. This is a huge honor. I've
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:24:20.720)
been a fan of both of you separately for a long time. I really appreciate wasting all this time
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:24:25.280)
with me today. I love you, Michael. I love you, Yaron. We love you too. Thanks for listening to
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:24:32.160)
this conversation with Michael Malice and Yaron Brook. And thank you to ground news, public goods,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:24:38.960)
athletic greens, brave and four Sigmatic. Check them out in the description to support this
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:24:44.880)
podcast. And now let me leave you with some words from Karl Marx. Surround yourself with people who
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:24:52.000)
make you happy. People who make you laugh, who help you when you're in need. People who genuinely
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (4:24:58.960)
care. They are the ones worth keeping in your life. Everyone else is just passing through.
Lex Fridman (4:25:05.280)
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (50:02.480)
Peterson, it becomes an obvious statement what Sam means.
Lex Fridman (50:06.120)
This is how neural networks think.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (50:07.680)
This is how robots think, Michael, you should know this.
Lex Fridman (50:11.280)
I thought by now you'd be a scholar.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (50:13.280)
For the sake of the audience.
Lex Fridman (50:17.600)
Humility.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (50:18.720)
Everything can teach you something, even the robot.
Lex Fridman (50:21.800)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (50:22.800)
So do you think there's value in religion or broader?
Lex Fridman (50:28.000)
Do you think there's value in myth?
Lex Fridman (50:30.080)
And as we've been talking about the value of reason, do you think it's possible to argue
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (50:33.900)
in society as we grow the population of our little island that there's some value of common
Lex Fridman (50:40.600)
myths, of common stories, of common religion?
Lex Fridman (50:43.680)
There was value.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (50:45.680)
There is no value today.
Lex Fridman (50:47.720)
So human beings need explanations, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (50:50.940)
They need a philosophy to guide their life.
Lex Fridman (50:53.240)
They need ethics.
Lex Fridman (50:54.240)
They need some explanation of what's going on in the world, right?
Lex Fridman (50:58.160)
And it's no accident that the early religions had a river god and they had a sun god and
Lex Fridman (51:04.440)
a moon god because everything they didn't understand, they made god, right?
Lex Fridman (51:09.780)
So they had multiple gods because they didn't understand very much.
Lex Fridman (51:13.040)
As human understanding evolved, it increased, as we knew reality more, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (51:19.080)
We came to the conclusion of, you know, this is very inefficient to have all these gods.
Lex Fridman (51:22.700)
This is a genius of Judaism, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (51:24.880)
Let's just have one bucket to put all the stuff we don't know in and we'll call it one
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (51:28.320)
god and then we don't, as we gain new knowledge, we can just take it out of the bucket that's
Lex Fridman (51:32.820)
god and put it into the bucket of science.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (51:36.440)
At some point, though, at some point, and that point suddenly came during the scientific
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (51:42.160)
revolution, I think, we could come to the conclusion that, no, we don't need this bucket
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (51:47.880)
that's called god to explain the things that we don't know.
Lex Fridman (51:51.080)
We can say we don't know and we're learning.
Lex Fridman (51:55.920)
And slowly our knowledge is increasing and yet there's a lot more that we don't know,
Lex Fridman (52:00.560)
but we don't need to throw it into some bucket that's called god in order to have it.
Lex Fridman (52:05.860)
And I think that's true for morality and it's true for everything else, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (52:09.560)
As we gain the tools to understand what morality requires, we don't need a set of commandments.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (52:15.340)
We can figure out morality from human nature and from reality.
Lex Fridman (52:19.400)
So I don't think we need religion anymore.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (52:22.560)
I think religion needed to die probably about 200 years ago and was dying, I think, up until
Lex Fridman (52:29.480)
Kant.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (52:30.480)
It seemed to be dying.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (52:31.480)
Kant's missions, as he says, is to revive religion against attack of reason in the Enlightenment.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (52:37.240)
Now mythology is a little different because it depends what you mean by mythology.
Lex Fridman (52:41.360)
Certainly we need stories and certainly we need art.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (52:45.120)
Art is a...
Lex Fridman (52:46.120)
And Rand writes about this a lot and she's an artist and she writes in...
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (52:50.400)
I'm a huge fan of the Romantic Manifesto, which I think is one of her underappreciated
Lex Fridman (52:54.600)
masterpieces.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (52:55.600)
Oh, I hate it.
Lex Fridman (52:56.600)
Okay.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (52:57.600)
That's it.
Lex Fridman (52:58.600)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (52:59.600)
So I think we have a real need, right?
Lex Fridman (53:03.520)
As a conceptual being, we have a need for aesthetic experiences.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (53:07.720)
We have a need to concretize abstractions, to concretize abstract ideas, to concretize
Lex Fridman (53:13.560)
the complex nature of the world out there.
Lex Fridman (53:15.400)
And that's what painting sculpture, to an extent music, but painting sculpture literature
Lex Fridman (53:20.520)
does for us.
Lex Fridman (53:22.200)
So to the extent that mythology serves that purpose, it's just art, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (53:27.120)
To the extent that it serves another purpose, that is that it's a way for the gods to communicate
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (53:31.840)
with us or it fits some kind of preexisting mental construct that we have as, again, kind
Lex Fridman (53:37.000)
of a conscientious perspective, right?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (53:38.720)
That we have these categorical imperatives and this mythology links up to that.
Lex Fridman (53:45.520)
Then I think it's false, it's not helpful and destructive.
Lex Fridman (53:50.320)
So I believe religion today is a destructive force on planet Earth.
Lex Fridman (53:54.080)
I think it's always been a destructive force.
Lex Fridman (53:55.980)
It was just a necessary force, right?
Lex Fridman (53:57.640)
You needed an explanation.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (53:59.280)
People needed something to believe in.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (54:01.340)
Once you get philosophy and once you get philosophy that starts explaining real life, real world,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (54:05.920)
you don't need religion anymore and indeed it becomes a destructive force.
Lex Fridman (54:09.120)
And you look around the world today, it's an unbelievably destructive force.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (54:12.760)
Everywhere it touches is bad for life.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (54:16.560)
Again, mythology depends, art is essential, very, very crucial to human existence.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (54:21.040)
I mean, I'd love to hear what you think, but you don't see religion and philosophy and
Lex Fridman (54:26.160)
mythology as just a continuous spectrum?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (54:28.960)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (54:29.960)
So religion is a primitive form of philosophy.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (54:30.960)
It's prephilosophical.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (54:31.960)
Where I thought Rand was going to go and he didn't go was that I think he, I agree with
Lex Fridman (54:39.760)
what he's going to say, Rand was a mythologizer.
Lex Fridman (54:43.720)
In certain specific contexts Atlas Shrugged is a myth.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (54:46.340)
It's one thing to sit down and say, these are the people who move us forward.
Lex Fridman (54:50.500)
These are the values that are important.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (54:52.600)
When you experience it through a story, through a movie, through a TV show, a poem or a painting,
Lex Fridman (54:57.920)
it affects you in a very visceral, very different way.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (55:02.200)
Talk about American history.
Lex Fridman (55:03.520)
You have the founding fathers, then you have the myth of the founding fathers.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (55:06.640)
Now, unfortunately the term myth often means lie, but it could mean in a useful sense,
Lex Fridman (55:13.000)
an abstraction to help you systematize and concretize ideas.
Lex Fridman (55:17.480)
So you have the myth of Reagan, you have the myth of Thatcher, the reality often falls
Lex Fridman (55:22.200)
very short.
Lex Fridman (55:23.500)
But when you look at how these different figures are mythologized, not only is it very inspirational
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (55:29.680)
on a personal level, very motivating on a personal level, it's also a great way to concretize
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (55:35.680)
ideas because just how humans think, it's one thing to think about ideas, but when you
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (55:39.960)
see someone who embodies these ideas, Miss America, I was saying earlier, I had an aster
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (55:44.240)
on my show, these people might be jerks.
Lex Fridman (55:47.060)
But when you look at them, one specific aspect of their life and you extrapolate it, that
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (55:51.040)
could be to anyone very motivating.
Lex Fridman (55:53.260)
And it's very important for people to have the belief that happiness and achievement
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (55:59.120)
is possible because it's very hard to keep that in mind, especially if you're depressed,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (56:03.480)
if you're anxious, you're unemployed, you don't have a girlfriend, you think it's going
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (56:06.400)
to be like this forever.
Lex Fridman (56:07.560)
And then you look at someone's story and they're like, you know what, that astronaut interview,
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (56:11.200)
Clayton Anderson, he applied 13 times, didn't get a call back, applied the 14th time, got
Lex Fridman (56:17.000)
a call back, didn't get the job, 15th time he get the job.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (56:19.280)
He talks to kids and he goes, listen, apply 13 times.
Lex Fridman (56:25.160)
Even if you don't get the call back, you'll still feel I'm doing something.
Lex Fridman (56:28.680)
And having heard him and the myth of Clayton Anderson, this is going to tell people, yeah,
Lex Fridman (56:33.600)
you know what?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (56:34.600)
That could be me.
Lex Fridman (56:35.600)
Absolutely.
Lex Fridman (56:36.600)
And it's not just happiness, it's the fact that virtue works, that the integrity, I mean,
Lex Fridman (56:42.440)
what's the power of the fountainhead?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (56:43.440)
I know you love the fountainhead.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (56:44.440)
Part of the power of the fountainhead is how it works, absolute commitment to integrity.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (56:51.920)
He is committed to integrity and he's happy.
Lex Fridman (56:55.860)
And it's very rare in life to see that, to actually see a concrete of that.
Lex Fridman (57:02.820)
And it's very hard to hold it in your mind.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (57:05.120)
Yes, I'm going to be stuck in the quarry or I'm going to be stuck doing this horrible
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (57:09.320)
job.
Lex Fridman (57:10.320)
But if I stick to my principles, I'm going to be how it works.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (57:12.920)
Now I've got that concrete.
Lex Fridman (57:13.920)
I know I can immediately relate to that success.
Lex Fridman (57:18.660)
So I think art is essential.
Lex Fridman (57:21.140)
And I think in a sense, what we do to Thatcher and Reagan is art.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (57:24.760)
You have to be careful in true stories, not to diverge too far from reality because then
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (57:29.980)
when you discover the reality, you don't want to whitewash it, and particularly when it
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (57:33.240)
has political implications and then it's really bad.
Lex Fridman (57:35.920)
So particularly with Reagan and Thatcher, you have to be careful because they want anyone
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (57:39.120)
near as good as people try to make them out to be.
Lex Fridman (57:41.920)
But these are powerful, powerful, powerful stories and people are moved by it.
Lex Fridman (57:47.960)
And the integration of emotion with reason is crucial.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (57:51.920)
One of the goals to be happy is to bring your emotions in line with your thinking.
Lex Fridman (57:57.720)
And I think that stories and arts more broadly, and when I go and see Michelangelo's David,
Lex Fridman (58:03.120)
it does the same thing to me.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (58:05.780)
I can stand up to anybody because he did.
Lex Fridman (58:08.600)
And look, he succeeded.
Lex Fridman (58:10.980)
And it makes sense that he could.
Lex Fridman (58:13.000)
So this is a really interesting idea of bringing your emotion in line with your thinking, with
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (58:18.000)
your reasoning.
Lex Fridman (58:19.120)
So Ben Shapiro famously has this saying, how do you like that transition, Michael?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (58:23.520)
Give me props.
Lex Fridman (58:24.520)
I know you do.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (58:25.520)
He's not Ben, it's Ben Shapiro.
Lex Fridman (58:26.520)
Yeah.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (58:27.520)
Someone is not taking your calls.
Lex Fridman (58:28.520)
Benny.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (58:29.520)
I guess it's a daily, don't take the caller.
Lex Fridman (58:35.840)
Back to the island with the murder.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (58:37.680)
I think we know.
Lex Fridman (58:38.680)
Murder Island.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (58:39.680)
We would know who would be committing the murder.
Lex Fridman (58:42.040)
I have the suit for it.
Lex Fridman (58:44.400)
So he has the saying of facts don't care about your feelings.
Lex Fridman (58:49.000)
And I've always felt badly about that statement somehow, like it was incomplete.
Lex Fridman (58:56.560)
So it's interesting that you mentioned bringing your emotions in line with your thinking.
Lex Fridman (59:01.960)
What do you think about that statement?
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (59:03.840)
I got this one.
Lex Fridman (59:05.320)
What Ben is doing in a loose way is attacking Kantianism because Kant, it's almost impossible
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (59:16.320)
for Westerners who aren't schooled in this to understand the idea of philosophical idealism
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (59:21.240)
because it sounds so crazy that you're like, these great minds of all time can't really
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (59:25.760)
be saying this.
Lex Fridman (59:26.760)
I must be missing something.
Lex Fridman (59:27.760)
So when we hear idealism, we think John F. Kennedy is a good example.
Lex Fridman (59:32.880)
You aspire things.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (59:33.880)
You think life can be better than it is.
Lex Fridman (59:35.720)
That's not what it means in a philosophical sense.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (59:38.080)
In philosophical idealism, it means ideas are more real than reality.
Lex Fridman (59:43.820)
That I have this idea, then this comes along.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (59:47.000)
It's the reality that isn't correct.
Lex Fridman (59:49.640)
My idea is still correct.
Michael Malice and Yaron Brook (59:50.640)
A good example of this that you see all the time on the internet is when they refer to
Lex Fridman (59:53.780)
Mitt Romney and John McCain as rhinos, Republicans in name only.
Lex Fridman (59:58.640)
And it's like, who is more a real Republican?
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