Zev Weinstein: The Next Generation of Big Ideas and Brave Minds

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as our human civilization.

Zev Weinstein (01:23.460)

If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube,

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review it on Apple Podcast, follow on Spotify,

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support on Patreon, or connect with me

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on Twitter at Lex Friedman.

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And now, here's my conversation with Zev Weinstein.

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You've said that philosophy becomes more dangerous

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in difficult times.

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What do you mean by that?

Zev Weinstein (01:44.740)

Interestingly, I think I mean two things by that.

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And I think firstly, I should clarify,

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when I say philosophy, I sort of mean

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in a very traditional sense, just thinking, ideation.

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And that could be reconsidering our notions of self

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in a very traditional sense, which we consider philosophy,

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or that could be like technological innovation.

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I think it's important to recognize all of these

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as philosophies that we can not question

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whether it's important to promote thought.

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I think the other thing I should clarify

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is when I say difficult times,

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I mean times when nothing is growing,

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and so the risk for real conflict is much greater

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because people are incentivized to fight over the things

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which already exist.

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I think when times are not difficult,

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the people with the greatest power

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are usually the people who are very creative,

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generating a lot, and that really requires ideation

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or philosophy of some sort.

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I think when times become stagnant,

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the important successful people become the people

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who are very good at protecting their own pieces of the pie

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and taking others.

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I think that those people have to be very opposed

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to any sort of thinking that could restructure society

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or conventions about who should succeed.

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And so firstly, I mean by that

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that it becomes much more dangerous for a person

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to think deeply and question during a time

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when the important people are those concerned

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with making sure no one rocks the boat.

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One example of this would be Socrates and his execution

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because everyone was happy enough

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to sit through his questions before there was war

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and poverty and distress,

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and afterwards it just became too dangerous.

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The other thing I mean by that is that the consequences

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of thinking deeply carry much greater potential

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for real catastrophe when everyone is desperate.

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So like for example, the communist manifesto

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was probably much more dangerous during early 1900s Russia

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than it was during the 1848 revolutions

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because I think people were in much worse shape

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and desperate people are very willing to dive

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into anything new that might bring the future

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without fully calculating

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whatever the consequences or risks might be.

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So it is both more dangerous for a person

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to have creative ideas and those ideas

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are more dangerous when times are tough.

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And by dangerous you mean it challenges the people

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with power who want to maintain that power

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in times of stagnation when there's not much growth,

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innovation, creativity, all that kind of stuff.

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Right, and we know that if nothing new is created,

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people have promises that they've made

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about what will be paid to whom, what debt structure is.

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The only possibility if stagnation lasts for long enough

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is really some kind of great conflict, great war

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because people have to take from others

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to make good on their own promises.

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So we know that by denying any sort of grand ideation

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we are accepting that there will be

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some kind of great catastrophe.

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And so we have to understand that philosophy

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is the most important when we've seen

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too much stagnation for too long.

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It is also very dangerous

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and it's dangerous for the people who are doing it

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and it's dangerous for the people who believe it

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but it's kind of our only way out ever.

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And again, by philosophy you mean the bigger,

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so it's not academic philosophy

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or this kind of games played in the space

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of just like moral philosophy and all those metaphysics,

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all that kind of stuff.

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You mean just thinking deeply about this world,

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thinking from first principles.

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I think your like Twitter line involves something about like.

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Trying to piece everything together from first principles.

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So that's fundamentally what being philosophical

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about this world is and that's where the people

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who are thinking deeply about this world

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are the ones who are feeding,

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who are the catalyst of this growth in society and so on.

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Yeah, I mean, I also think that the real implication

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of moral philosophy can be something

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that most would consider like a real political implication.

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So I think all philosophy really ties together

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because there has to be some sort of grand structure

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to all thought and how it relates.

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Do you think this growth and innovation

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and improvement can last forever?

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We've seen some incredible,

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the thing that humans have been able to accomplish

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over the past several hundred years is just,

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I mean, awe inspiring and every moment in that history,

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it almost seemed like no more could be done.

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Like we've solved all the problems that are to be solved.

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And there's just historically,

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there's all these kind of ridiculous

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like Bill Gates style quotes,

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or like it's obvious that this new cool thing

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is not gonna take off and yet it does.

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And so there's a feeling of the same kind of pattern

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that we see in Moore's law.

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There's constant growth in different technologies

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in the modern day era in any kind of automation

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over the past hundred years.

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Do you think it's possible that we'll keep growing this way

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if we give power to the philosophers of our society?

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I think the only way that we can keep growing this way

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is if we give power to real thinkers.

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And there's no guarantee that that will work,

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but we sort of don't have any other choice.

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And I think you're entirely right

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that this period of both understanding the universe

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at a rate which has never been seen before

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and invention and creativity,

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that these past hundred years

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have been sort of uncharacteristic

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for the level of growth that we've seen in all of history.

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We've never seen anything like this.

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And I think a lot of our promises rest on this sort of thing

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continuing.

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I think that's very dangerous.

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But the one thing that can get us out of this is philosophy

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and being ready to radically restructure

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all of our notions about what should be, what is.

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I think that's very important.

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So you think deeply about this world.

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You are clearly the embodiment of a thinker, of a philosopher.

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Your dad is also one such guy, Eric Weinstein.

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Do you have big disagreements with him

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on this topic in particular?

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I think, now people should know,

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he also happens to be in the room,

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but the mics can't pick him up so he can heckle.

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It doesn't even matter.

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But do you have disagreements with him on this point?

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Let me try to summarize his argument

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that we are actually based a lot of our American society

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on the belief that things will keep growing.

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And yet it seems that however you break it apart,

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maybe from an economics perspective,

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that they're not growing currently.

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And so that's where a lot of our troubles are at.

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Do you have the same sense that there's a stagnation period

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that we're living through over the past couple of decades?

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I think stagnation, modern stagnation is completely

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undeniable, particularly scientifically.

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And I think there have been a few fields

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where tremendous progress has been made very recently.

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I think my dad might feel that

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there is sort of an inevitability

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to the ending of this period.

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And I'm not so certain that the fall of this great time

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is completely inevitable because I don't know

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what thoughts we're capable of producing,

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what we're able to reconsider.

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I think we really have to be open to the possibility

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that all of our standard frameworks where,

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like he will talk about embedded growth obligations.

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If we continue within the same framework,

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then we're very susceptible to the dangers

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of whatever these embedded growth obligations are.

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I think if we break the frameworks,

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we have no reason to believe that the problems

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we're experiencing with our current frameworks

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will follow us.

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And I think that's the importance of radical thought

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is we don't know what the solution is,

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but if there is a solution,

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it will be born from some very fundamental thinking.

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And so I have great hope.

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So you have optimism about sort of the power

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of a single radical idea or a single radical thinker

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to break our frameworks and break us out of this,

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like, spiral down due to whatever the economic forces

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that are creating this current stagnation.

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Yeah, I'm very, very hopeful.

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The optimism of youth.

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Well, I share your optimism.

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So let me come back to something you've also talked about.

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You have very little stuff out there currently,

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but the things you have out there, your thoughts,

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you could just tell how deeply you think about this world.

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And one of the things you mentioned is

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as you learn about this world, as you read,

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as you sort of go through different experiences,

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that you're open to changing your mind.

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How often do you find yourself changing your mind?

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Do you think Zev from 10 years into the future

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will look back at this conversation we're having now

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and disagree completely with everything you just said?

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It's entirely possible.

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And that's one of the things that scares me so much

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about appearing publicly.

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I think that the internet can be very intolerant

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of inconsistency.

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And I am entirely prepared to be very inconsistent

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because I know that whatever beliefs I have

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when subjected to scrutiny may change

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because that's really the only way

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to form your truest, most fundamental conceptions

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about the world around you.

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And it would take an infinite amount of time

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to subject every single one of your beliefs to scrutiny.

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And so that's a process that must follow me

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throughout my entire life.

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And I know that means that my opinions and perspectives

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are always to be changing.

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I'm prepared to accept that about myself.

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Whether other people are prepared to accept

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that my public opinions may change

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and vary greatly over time is something I don't know.

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I don't know how tolerant the world will be,

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but I'm very prepared to change anything I believe in

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if I think deeply enough about it

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or a good enough argument is made so that I might reconsider.

Zev Weinstein (13:59.640)

Well, there certainly is currently an intolerance

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and that's one of the problems of our age.

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There's an intolerance towards change.

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And I'll also ask you about labels.

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You talked about sort of we like to bin each other

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into different categories, the blue or red

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or whatever the different categorization is.

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But it seems like the task before you

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as a young person defining our future

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is to make a tolerance of change the norm.

Zev Weinstein (14:28.720)

Doing this podcast, for example,

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and then changing your mind one or two years later

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and doing so publicly without a big dramatic thing

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or maybe changing it on a daily basis

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and just being open about it and being transparent

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about your thought process.

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Maybe that is the beacon of hope for the philosophical way,

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the path of the philosopher.

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So that's your task in a sense

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is to change your mind openly and bravely.

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You know, you're right.

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And maybe I will just have to endure some sort of criticism

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for doing that, but I think that's very important.

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I think this ties back to this previous facet

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of our conversation where we were discussing

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if thinkers would win over systems

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that are devoted to preventing radical thought

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or if who will win the systems or the thinkers.

Zev Weinstein (15:25.920)

I think it's crucial that my generation

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take up a hand in this fight.

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And I think it's important that I'm a part of that

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because I know that I have some opportunity

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to, there is, I think it is my obligation

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as a member of a generation whose only real hope

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is to think outside of a system

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because whatever systems exist are collapsing.

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I think it is really my obligation

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to try to play some role, whatever role I can

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and being an instrument in that change.

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Are you, as a young mind, do you have a sense of fear

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about just like how afraid were you

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to do this podcast conversation?

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Do you have a sense of fear of thinking publicly?

Lex Fridman (16:19.360)

Yeah, I don't even think that that fear is irrational.

Zev Weinstein (16:23.240)

It's very difficult to exist publicly in any form now

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because it's very easy for anyone to take cheap shots

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at something which is difficult and as I said,

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the people who are trying to have the difficult ideas

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and conversations are perhaps putting others

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in actual danger because everyone is so desperate

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that they might be willing to try anything.

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So there's a certain amount of responsibility

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which one has to take going before the public

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and there is a certain amount of ridicule

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which will be completely unwarranted

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that anyone must endure for it.

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And I think that means that one has to be afraid

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because they could both ruin the world

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and be ruined by the world

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in an unwarranted and undeserved fashion.

Zev Weinstein (17:31.480)

I would like to believe in myself enough

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to try to accept this as a task

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because I think people need to try

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or there's no getting out of this

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and we will end in some kind of crazy, brilliant war.

Lex Fridman (17:44.740)

Awfully put.

Zev Weinstein (17:45.580)

You've said also that in these times we can't have labels

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because it holds us back.

Zev Weinstein (17:51.400)

Maybe we've already talked about it a little bit

Lex Fridman (17:53.540)

but this idea of labels is really interesting.

Lex Fridman (17:56.540)

Why do you think labels hold us back?

Lex Fridman (17:59.560)

Well, I think many underestimate the extent

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to which language and communication really impacts

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and shapes the ideas and thoughts

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which are being communicated.

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And I think if we're willing to accept imperfect labels

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to categorize particular people or thoughts,

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in some sense, we are corrupting an abstraction

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in order to represent it and communicate about it.

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And I think as we've discussed,

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those abstractions are particularly important

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when everything is on fire.

Zev Weinstein (18:41.880)

We should not be sacrificing grand thoughts

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for the ability to express it.

Zev Weinstein (18:49.720)

I think everyone should work much harder,

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including myself, to really be thinking abstractly

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in abstract terms instead of using concrete terms

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to discuss abstraction while ruining it slightly.

Zev Weinstein (19:04.680)

Yeah, it's kind of a skill actually.

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So one really difficult example in the recent time

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that maybe you can comment on if you have been thinking

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about it is just politics.

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And there's a lot of labels in politics

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that it takes a lot of skill to be able

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to communicate difficult ideas

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without labels being attached to you.

Zev Weinstein (19:34.040)

That's something that I've been sort of thinking about a lot

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in trying to express, for example,

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how much I love various aspects of the foundational ideas

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of this country, like freedom,

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and just saying, I love America, a simple statement.

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I love the ideas that we're finding to America.

Zev Weinstein (19:53.260)

Well, often in the current time,

Lex Fridman (19:55.360)

well, people will try, they desperately try

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to attach a label to me, for example,

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on the latter part, on the engineering part,

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on the sustenance, is Elon Musk.

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Does that somebody you draw inspiration from?

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What are your thoughts in general about the kind

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of unique spec of human that's creating

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so much inspiring innovation in this world so boldly?

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I know that we will not survive without people like that.

Zev Weinstein (1:00:32.100)

Elon is a ridiculous and sensational example

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of one of these figures.

Zev Weinstein (1:00:39.740)

I don't know if he's the best example or the worst example,

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but he is of his own kind.

Zev Weinstein (1:00:48.180)

He is radically individualistic,

Lex Fridman (1:00:50.860)

and those are the people who will allow us

Zev Weinstein (1:00:54.460)

to continue as humans.

Lex Fridman (1:00:57.980)

I'm very happy that we have people like that in this world.

Zev Weinstein (1:01:01.020)

You said this thing about if we are to say

Lex Fridman (1:01:05.460)

that life has meaning or life is meaningful,

Zev Weinstein (1:01:10.620)

then you could argue that it is a worthy pursuit

Lex Fridman (1:01:15.180)

to transcend life.

Lex Fridman (1:01:18.900)

Do you see that, another just, I'm gonna have to go back

Lex Fridman (1:01:25.220)

and sleep on that one.

Lex Fridman (1:01:28.900)

Do you draw some, speaking of Elon,

Lex Fridman (1:01:32.260)

some inspiration of us transcending Earth,

Zev Weinstein (1:01:40.900)

of us moving outside of this particular planet

Lex Fridman (1:01:46.460)

that we've called home for a long time

Lex Fridman (1:01:48.220)

and colonizing other planets,

Lex Fridman (1:01:50.380)

and perhaps one day expanding outside the solar system

Lex Fridman (1:01:53.860)

and expanding, colonizing our galaxy and beyond?

Lex Fridman (1:01:58.580)

Honestly, I know very little about space exploration.

Zev Weinstein (1:02:01.780)

I think it makes complete sense to me

Lex Fridman (1:02:05.740)

why we are starting to think very seriously about it.

Zev Weinstein (1:02:09.780)

It's an amazing and baffling and innovative solution

Lex Fridman (1:02:15.300)

to a lot of problems we see as a world population.

Zev Weinstein (1:02:21.140)

I can't really offer very much of interest on the topic.

Lex Fridman (1:02:26.140)

I think when I'm talking about transcending humanity

Lex Fridman (1:02:31.140)

and transcending Earth, I'm talking usually

Lex Fridman (1:02:37.060)

about deriving truth, and that's one of the things

Zev Weinstein (1:02:41.140)

that makes theoretical math and physics so interesting.

Lex Fridman (1:02:45.820)

It's like, I really, really love biology, for example,

Lex Fridman (1:02:50.340)

but biology is a combination of whatever principles

Lex Fridman (1:02:57.020)

ensure evolution and whatever weird coincidences

Zev Weinstein (1:03:00.700)

happened billions of years ago.

Lex Fridman (1:03:03.620)

So do you think it's more interesting to understand

Zev Weinstein (1:03:05.260)

the fundamental mechanisms of evolution, for example,

Lex Fridman (1:03:07.820)

than it is the results, the messy results of its processes?

Zev Weinstein (1:03:12.380)

I can't say which is more interesting.

Lex Fridman (1:03:14.100)

I can say which I think is more deep.

Zev Weinstein (1:03:17.340)

I think theory and abstraction, which can be achieved

Lex Fridman (1:03:23.340)

completely deductively, is deeper because it has nothing

Zev Weinstein (1:03:28.860)

to do with circumstance and everything to do

Lex Fridman (1:03:31.660)

with logic and thought.

Zev Weinstein (1:03:35.620)

So, like, if we were ever to interact with aliens,

Lex Fridman (1:03:40.940)

for example, we would not have our biology in common

Zev Weinstein (1:03:46.940)

if these were some sort of really intelligent life form.

Lex Fridman (1:03:52.940)

We would have math and physics in common because the laws

Zev Weinstein (1:03:58.940)

of physics will be the same everywhere in the universe.

Lex Fridman (1:04:05.460)

Our particular anatomy and biology pertains only to life

Zev Weinstein (1:04:12.060)

on this planet, and the principles may apply

Lex Fridman (1:04:15.580)

more ubiquitously.

Lex Fridman (1:04:17.180)

Do you ever think about aliens, like, what they might look like?

Lex Fridman (1:04:20.300)

I try to, when I deal with thought experiments like these,

Zev Weinstein (1:04:24.540)

I try to keep a very abstract mindset,

Lex Fridman (1:04:29.740)

and I notice that whenever I try to instantiate

Zev Weinstein (1:04:35.100)

these abstractions, I corrupt whatever thoughts there are

Lex Fridman (1:04:41.500)

for which they're useful.

Lex Fridman (1:04:42.940)

So it's kind of like the labels discussion.

Lex Fridman (1:04:45.180)

So, like, the moment you try to make it concrete,

Zev Weinstein (1:04:48.140)

it's probably going to look like some cute version

Lex Fridman (1:04:50.220)

of a human, like, it's the little green fellas

Zev Weinstein (1:04:54.460)

with the eyes and so on, or whatever.

Lex Fridman (1:04:56.700)

Whatever the movies have instilled,

Zev Weinstein (1:04:59.340)

like, your cultural upbringing, you're going to project

Lex Fridman (1:05:01.980)

onto that and the assumptions you have.

Zev Weinstein (1:05:04.700)

That's interesting.

Lex Fridman (1:05:05.340)

So you prefer to sort of step away and think

Lex Fridman (1:05:07.900)

and abstract notions of what it means to be intelligent,

Lex Fridman (1:05:10.380)

what it means to be a living life form

Lex Fridman (1:05:12.700)

and all that kind of stuff.

Lex Fridman (1:05:13.580)

Mm hmm. I try to, I almost try to pretend I'm blind

Lex Fridman (1:05:17.740)

and I'm deaf and I'm only a mind

Lex Fridman (1:05:22.220)

with no inductive reasoning capacity

Zev Weinstein (1:05:24.940)

when I'm trying to think about thought experiments like these,

Lex Fridman (1:05:28.780)

because I know that if I incorporate

Zev Weinstein (1:05:33.580)

whatever my eyes instruct my brain,

Lex Fridman (1:05:37.740)

I will impede my ability to think as deeply as possible.

Zev Weinstein (1:05:47.180)

Because once again, it's the thing which shallows our thought

Lex Fridman (1:05:50.940)

can be the incorporation of circumstance and coincidence.

Lex Fridman (1:05:54.300)

And for particular kinds of thought, that's very important.

Lex Fridman (1:05:57.260)

I'm not discounting the use of inductive reasoning

Zev Weinstein (1:06:00.460)

in many humanities and in many sciences,

Lex Fridman (1:06:03.580)

but for the deepest of thoughts,

Zev Weinstein (1:06:06.220)

once again, I feel it's important to try to transcend

Lex Fridman (1:06:09.820)

whatever methods of observation characterize human experience.

Zev Weinstein (1:06:14.380)

See, but within that, that's all really beautifully put.

Lex Fridman (1:06:17.100)

I wonder if there is a common mathematics

Lex Fridman (1:06:22.700)

and a common physics between us and alien beings,

Lex Fridman (1:06:26.780)

we still have to make concrete the methods of communication.

Zev Weinstein (1:06:31.580)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:06:32.780)

And that's a fascinating question of like,

Zev Weinstein (1:06:34.700)

while remaining in these abstract fundamental ideas,

Lex Fridman (1:06:37.340)

how do we communicate with them?

Zev Weinstein (1:06:39.980)

I mean, I suppose that that question could be applied

Lex Fridman (1:06:41.900)

to different cultures on earth,

Lex Fridman (1:06:45.100)

but it's finding a common language.

Lex Fridman (1:06:48.780)

Do you think about that kind of problem

Lex Fridman (1:06:50.940)

of basically communicating abstract fundamental ideas?

Lex Fridman (1:06:55.100)

My least favorite aspect of math or physics

Zev Weinstein (1:06:58.860)

or any of these really deep sciences

Lex Fridman (1:07:01.020)

is the symbolic component. You know, I'm dyslexic.

Zev Weinstein (1:07:05.340)

I don't like looking at symbols.

Lex Fridman (1:07:08.140)

They're too often a source of ambiguity.

Lex Fridman (1:07:12.380)

And I think you're entirely right that if one thing

Lex Fridman (1:07:15.100)

holds us back with communication

Zev Weinstein (1:07:22.460)

with something that behaves or looks nothing like us,

Lex Fridman (1:07:26.380)

I think if one thing holds us back

Zev Weinstein (1:07:29.260)

it will be symbols and the communication of deep thought.

Lex Fridman (1:07:35.580)

Because as I said, I think communication

Zev Weinstein (1:07:38.140)

frequently compromises thought by intention

Lex Fridman (1:07:41.660)

or by just theoretical inadequacy.

Lex Fridman (1:07:46.380)

So on this topic, actually,

Lex Fridman (1:07:47.900)

it'd be fun to see what your thoughts are.

Lex Fridman (1:07:50.140)

Do you think math is invented or discovered?

Lex Fridman (1:07:54.860)

So you said that math, we might share many different things.

Zev Weinstein (1:07:59.020)

Some ideas of mathematics and physics with alien life forms.

Lex Fridman (1:08:04.780)

So it's uniform in some sense of uniform throughout the universe.

Lex Fridman (1:08:10.860)

Do you think this thing that we call mathematics

Lex Fridman (1:08:15.020)

is something that's kind of fundamental to the world we live in

Zev Weinstein (1:08:19.580)

or is it just some kind of pretty axioms and theorems

Lex Fridman (1:08:24.540)

we've come up with to try to describe

Lex Fridman (1:08:26.700)

the patterns we see in the world?

Lex Fridman (1:08:28.860)

I think it's completely discovered

Lex Fridman (1:08:31.740)

and completely fundamental to all experience.

Lex Fridman (1:08:35.020)

I think the only component of mathematics

Zev Weinstein (1:08:38.380)

that has been invented is the expression of it.

Lex Fridman (1:08:41.340)

And I think in some sense, there's almost an arrogance

Zev Weinstein (1:08:47.820)

required to believe that whatever aspect we invent

Lex Fridman (1:08:55.820)

having to do with math and physics and theory,

Zev Weinstein (1:09:00.620)

there is an arrogance required to truly believe

Lex Fridman (1:09:05.180)

that that belongs on any sort of stage

Zev Weinstein (1:09:07.420)

with the actual beauty of the matters being discovered.

Lex Fridman (1:09:12.300)

So we need our minds and in some sense our pens

Zev Weinstein (1:09:21.340)

to be able to play with these things

Lex Fridman (1:09:26.140)

and communicate about them.

Lex Fridman (1:09:28.460)

And those hands and those pens are the things

Lex Fridman (1:09:33.660)

which smudge the most beautiful thing

Zev Weinstein (1:09:36.540)

that humanity can ever experience.

Lex Fridman (1:09:40.300)

And maybe if we interact with some intelligent life form,

Zev Weinstein (1:09:48.140)

they will have their own unique smudges.

Lex Fridman (1:09:51.020)

But the canvas, which is beautiful,

Zev Weinstein (1:09:55.180)

must be identical because that is

Lex Fridman (1:09:57.100)

universal and ubiquitous truth.

Lex Fridman (1:09:59.260)

And that's what makes it deep and meaningful

Lex Fridman (1:10:01.580)

is that it's so much more important than whatever

Zev Weinstein (1:10:05.740)

we're programmed to enjoy as an aspect of human experience.

Lex Fridman (1:10:10.220)

Yeah, that's really beautifully put.

Zev Weinstein (1:10:13.740)

The human language is these messy smudges

Lex Fridman (1:10:17.820)

of trying to express something underlying that

Zev Weinstein (1:10:20.060)

is beautiful.

Lex Fridman (1:10:23.500)

Speaking of that, on the physics side,

Lex Fridman (1:10:26.860)

do you think the pursuit of a theory of everything

Lex Fridman (1:10:31.100)

in physics, as we may call it in our current times,

Zev Weinstein (1:10:34.620)

of understanding the basic fabric of reality

Lex Fridman (1:10:38.060)

from a physics perspective is an important pursuit?

Zev Weinstein (1:10:41.900)

I think it's essential.

Lex Fridman (1:10:44.700)

As I've said, I think ideation is our only escape

Zev Weinstein (1:10:49.340)

from the constraints of human condition.

Lex Fridman (1:10:54.540)

And I think that it's important that all great thoughts

Lex Fridman (1:10:58.540)

and ideas are bound together.

Lex Fridman (1:11:01.620)

And I think the math is beautiful.

Lex Fridman (1:11:04.580)

And it ensures that the things which

Lex Fridman (1:11:07.900)

bind great ideas which have already been had

Lex Fridman (1:11:11.500)

and great discoveries together, it

Lex Fridman (1:11:15.380)

ensures that those strings will be beautiful.

Zev Weinstein (1:11:19.860)

I think it's very important to unify

Lex Fridman (1:11:22.620)

all theories that have brought us to where we are.

Lex Fridman (1:11:25.980)

Do you think humans can do it?

Lex Fridman (1:11:28.420)

Do you think humans can solve this puzzle?

Zev Weinstein (1:11:30.180)

Is it possible that we, with our limited cognitive capacity,

Lex Fridman (1:11:33.580)

will never be able to truly understand this deep,

Lex Fridman (1:11:37.740)

like deeply understand this underlying canvas?

Lex Fridman (1:11:42.420)

I think if not, it will be people like you

Zev Weinstein (1:11:46.180)

who invent some sort of, I don't know,

Lex Fridman (1:11:53.140)

we'll call it computation for now,

Zev Weinstein (1:11:55.300)

that will be able to not only discover

Lex Fridman (1:12:02.700)

that which transcends humanity, but to transcend

Zev Weinstein (1:12:06.660)

human methods of discovering that which is above it.

Lex Fridman (1:12:11.740)

So superintelligence systems, AGI, and so on,

Zev Weinstein (1:12:14.660)

that are better physicists than us.

Lex Fridman (1:12:17.300)

I wonder if you might be able to comment.

Lex Fridman (1:12:19.820)

So your dad does happen to be somebody

Lex Fridman (1:12:21.500)

who boldly seeks this kind of deep understanding of physics,

Zev Weinstein (1:12:27.060)

the underlying nature of reality from a physics perspective,

Lex Fridman (1:12:30.220)

from a mathematical physics perspective.

Lex Fridman (1:12:34.900)

Do you have hope your dad figures it out?

Lex Fridman (1:12:37.140)

I have great hope.

Zev Weinstein (1:12:38.380)

It's not supposed to be my journey.

Lex Fridman (1:12:41.220)

It's supposed to be his journey.

Zev Weinstein (1:12:42.660)

It's supposed to be his to express to the world.

Lex Fridman (1:12:47.260)

Obviously, I'm so proud that I'm connected

Zev Weinstein (1:12:51.180)

to someone who is determined to do such a thing.

Lex Fridman (1:12:55.100)

And on the other hand, maybe in some sense,

Zev Weinstein (1:12:58.940)

I feel bad for him for having to,

Lex Fridman (1:13:03.020)

if he's going to be the thing which discovers

Zev Weinstein (1:13:07.140)

some sort of grand unified theory and expresses it,

Lex Fridman (1:13:11.340)

I feel sorry that he will have to smudge whatever

Zev Weinstein (1:13:16.900)

canvas this thing is.

Lex Fridman (1:13:18.940)

Because he's human.

Zev Weinstein (1:13:19.900)

Really, I think I know I've seen a little bit of what

Lex Fridman (1:13:24.820)

I think great math and great physics looks like.

Lex Fridman (1:13:27.860)

And it's unbelievably beautiful.

Lex Fridman (1:13:31.020)

And then you have to present it to a world

Zev Weinstein (1:13:33.460)

with market constraints and all of this messy sloppiness.

Lex Fridman (1:13:39.020)

I feel bad in some sense for my dad

Zev Weinstein (1:13:43.580)

because he has to go back and forth

Lex Fridman (1:13:45.540)

between this beautiful world of math

Lex Fridman (1:13:47.860)

and whatever the messiness is of his human life.

Lex Fridman (1:13:54.780)

And then the scientific community

Zev Weinstein (1:13:56.260)

broadly with egos and tensions and just

Lex Fridman (1:13:59.580)

the dynamics of what makes us human.

Zev Weinstein (1:14:03.540)

He's also very lucky that he gets to play

Lex Fridman (1:14:05.340)

with these sorts of things.

Zev Weinstein (1:14:07.060)

It's a mixed bag.

Lex Fridman (1:14:09.940)

I both feel a little sorry for him

Zev Weinstein (1:14:12.380)

for having to deal with the beauty as well as

Lex Fridman (1:14:14.980)

the smudging and the sloppiness of human expression.

Lex Fridman (1:14:21.340)

And I think it's difficult not to envy such a beautiful insight

Lex Fridman (1:14:32.780)

or life or vision.

Zev Weinstein (1:14:35.300)

Well, that's your own path as well

Lex Fridman (1:14:36.900)

is this kind of struggle of, as you mentioned,

Zev Weinstein (1:14:41.100)

exploring the beauty of different ideas

Lex Fridman (1:14:44.020)

while having to communicate those ideas with the best smudges

Zev Weinstein (1:14:48.780)

you can in a world that wants to put labels,

Lex Fridman (1:14:52.100)

that wants to misinterpret, that wants to destroy

Zev Weinstein (1:14:56.260)

the beauty of those ideas.

Lex Fridman (1:14:57.820)

And you seem to, at this time, with your youthful enthusiasm,

Zev Weinstein (1:15:03.060)

embracing that struggle despite the fear in the face of fear.

Lex Fridman (1:15:07.820)

And your dad also carries that same youthful enthusiasm

Zev Weinstein (1:15:13.260)

as well.

Lex Fridman (1:15:14.260)

But that said, your dad, Eric Weinstein,

Zev Weinstein (1:15:18.020)

he's a powerful voice, I would say,

Lex Fridman (1:15:19.540)

a powerful intellect in public discourse.

Zev Weinstein (1:15:22.060)

Is this a burden for you or an inspiration or both

Lex Fridman (1:15:28.500)

as a young mind yourself?

Zev Weinstein (1:15:31.340)

I think, as I said, there's this weird contrast of I

Lex Fridman (1:15:38.980)

know that he has ideas, which I think are very beautiful,

Lex Fridman (1:15:42.380)

and I know he has to deal with the sort of there's something

Lex Fridman (1:15:49.420)

you have to sacrifice in beauty when you bring it

Zev Weinstein (1:15:54.220)

to a world which is not always beautiful.

Lex Fridman (1:16:00.060)

And there's an aspect of that which sort of scares me

Zev Weinstein (1:16:04.820)

about this kind of thing.

Lex Fridman (1:16:07.460)

I also think that, especially since I'm

Zev Weinstein (1:16:13.180)

trying to think about how I should appear publicly,

Lex Fridman (1:16:16.700)

my dad has been very inspirational

Zev Weinstein (1:16:20.020)

in that I think he brings a sort of fastidious care

Lex Fridman (1:16:24.900)

to very difficult conversations that.

Lex Fridman (1:16:27.660)

What does fastidious mean?

Lex Fridman (1:16:29.780)

It's just very careful and thoughtful.

Zev Weinstein (1:16:35.620)

He brings that sort of attitude to, I think,

Lex Fridman (1:16:39.940)

really difficult conversations.

Lex Fridman (1:16:42.860)

And I know that I don't have that skill yet.

Lex Fridman (1:16:45.900)

I don't think I'm terrible, but.

Zev Weinstein (1:16:47.860)

The care, the nuance, and yet not

Lex Fridman (1:16:50.300)

being afraid to push forward.

Zev Weinstein (1:16:52.740)

Yeah, I would really like to learn from my dad there.

Lex Fridman (1:16:55.620)

I think also my dad has been very important to my life

Zev Weinstein (1:17:00.700)

just because I've always been a sort of very idiosyncratic

Lex Fridman (1:17:05.860)

thinker.

Lex Fridman (1:17:07.780)

And I think I don't always know how

Lex Fridman (1:17:12.020)

to interact with the world for those sorts of reasons.

Lex Fridman (1:17:16.580)

And I think my dad has always been similar.

Lex Fridman (1:17:21.580)

And if not for my dad, I don't know

Zev Weinstein (1:17:23.540)

if I would just believe that I was stupid or something.

Lex Fridman (1:17:28.140)

Because I don't know if I would know

Lex Fridman (1:17:31.900)

how to interpret my differences from convention.

Lex Fridman (1:17:36.980)

So he gave you the power to be different

Lex Fridman (1:17:42.420)

and use that as a superpower.

Lex Fridman (1:17:45.780)

Yeah, I guess you could put it that way.

Zev Weinstein (1:17:49.060)

I don't know who I would believe I

Lex Fridman (1:17:51.220)

am if I didn't have my dad telling me

Zev Weinstein (1:17:56.380)

that it wasn't my own stupidity which

Lex Fridman (1:17:58.900)

alienated me from certain aspects of standard life.

Lex Fridman (1:18:02.980)

So I'm very, very thankful for that.

Lex Fridman (1:18:05.900)

Is there a fond memory you have about an interaction

Zev Weinstein (1:18:08.620)

with your dad, either funny, profound, that kind of sticks

Lex Fridman (1:18:13.060)

with you now?

Zev Weinstein (1:18:15.380)

A lot.

Lex Fridman (1:18:18.180)

Part of the reason I ask that, of course,

Zev Weinstein (1:18:20.620)

is just fascinating to see somebody as brilliant as you,

Lex Fridman (1:18:24.700)

see how the people that you interact with,

Lex Fridman (1:18:28.060)

how they form the mind that you have,

Lex Fridman (1:18:30.700)

but also to give an insight of another public figure

Zev Weinstein (1:18:35.180)

like your dad to see from your perspective of what

Lex Fridman (1:18:39.740)

kind of little magical moments happen in private life.

Zev Weinstein (1:18:42.700)

I would say I remember I think I just posted about this

Lex Fridman (1:18:47.380)

on Instagram or something.

Zev Weinstein (1:18:50.980)

Otherwise, it didn't happen.

Lex Fridman (1:18:52.300)

If you didn't post that, yeah.

Zev Weinstein (1:18:53.860)

One person who's always sort of mattered

Lex Fridman (1:18:56.740)

to whatever weird life and experience I've had

Zev Weinstein (1:19:00.500)

has been this comedian, Tom Lehrer.

Lex Fridman (1:19:03.420)

Do you know him?

Zev Weinstein (1:19:04.740)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:19:06.580)

I love him very much.

Zev Weinstein (1:19:08.060)

Likewise.

Lex Fridman (1:19:09.220)

Anyway, I remember I think I was five or something.

Zev Weinstein (1:19:12.820)

My dad came home with the CD, this Tom Lehrer CD,

Lex Fridman (1:19:17.060)

and he told me to listen to it.

Lex Fridman (1:19:19.060)

And it was all of this bizarre satirical writing

Lex Fridman (1:19:24.180)

about prostitution and cutting up babies

Lex Fridman (1:19:29.100)

and all kinds of ridiculously vile content

Lex Fridman (1:19:34.020)

for a five year old.

Zev Weinstein (1:19:35.860)

I think beyond just my love of Tom Lehrer,

Lex Fridman (1:19:42.300)

I think it was a way for my dad to express

Zev Weinstein (1:19:46.500)

that from a very young age, he was really

Lex Fridman (1:19:50.860)

ready to treat me like an adult, and he

Zev Weinstein (1:19:53.180)

was ready to trust me and share his life and his enjoyments

Lex Fridman (1:20:03.220)

with me in a way that was unconventional

Zev Weinstein (1:20:07.420)

because he was willing to discard tradition

Lex Fridman (1:20:13.940)

for the chance at a really unique and meaningful

Zev Weinstein (1:20:19.660)

parental relationship.

Lex Fridman (1:20:21.180)

So trusting that his particular brand of weirdness

Zev Weinstein (1:20:24.940)

is something you can understand at a young age

Lex Fridman (1:20:26.940)

and embrace and learn from it.

Zev Weinstein (1:20:28.580)

Tom Lehrer, we should clarify, is not all about,

Lex Fridman (1:20:31.540)

what is it, murder and prostitution.

Zev Weinstein (1:20:33.060)

He's one of the wittiest, most brilliant musical artists.

Lex Fridman (1:20:36.060)

If you haven't listened to his work, you should.

Zev Weinstein (1:20:40.140)

He's just a rare intellect who's able to sort of,

Lex Fridman (1:20:44.940)

in catchy rhyme, express some really difficult ideas

Zev Weinstein (1:20:49.260)

through satire, I suppose.

Lex Fridman (1:20:52.780)

That still, even though it's decades ago,

Zev Weinstein (1:20:55.300)

still resonates today, some of the ideas that he expressed.

Lex Fridman (1:20:58.060)

I will say also that I think I am probably

Zev Weinstein (1:21:02.900)

a more cultured person having listened to Tom Lehrer

Lex Fridman (1:21:06.540)

than I would have been without, I think,

Zev Weinstein (1:21:09.340)

a lot of his comedy draws upon a canon

Lex Fridman (1:21:13.380)

that I was really driven to research by saying,

Lex Fridman (1:21:15.820)

oh, what does this mean?

Lex Fridman (1:21:16.820)

I don't understand that reference.

Zev Weinstein (1:21:18.660)

There are a lot of references there

Lex Fridman (1:21:20.020)

to really inspirational things, which he sort of assumes

Zev Weinstein (1:21:26.380)

going into a lot of his songs.

Lex Fridman (1:21:28.020)

And for many of us, like me, you have

Zev Weinstein (1:21:29.660)

to piece those things together, looking at Wikipedia pages

Lex Fridman (1:21:33.420)

and whatnot.

Lex Fridman (1:21:33.980)

But to tie this back to the original question,

Lex Fridman (1:21:37.900)

I think there's sort of a break it,

Zev Weinstein (1:21:43.900)

you bought it notion of parenting.

Lex Fridman (1:21:47.260)

I think, really, if you're not going to accept a standard,

Zev Weinstein (1:21:53.780)

you have to invent your own.

Lex Fridman (1:21:55.300)

And I think, in some ways, that was my dad's way of telling me

Zev Weinstein (1:21:59.660)

that if I was too unstandard as a child,

Lex Fridman (1:22:04.220)

he would invent his own way of parenting me

Zev Weinstein (1:22:07.740)

because that was worth it to him.

Lex Fridman (1:22:09.500)

And I think that was very meaningful to me.

Zev Weinstein (1:22:11.540)

I know you're young.

Lex Fridman (1:22:13.020)

This is a weird time to ask this question.

Zev Weinstein (1:22:16.700)

Are you cognizant on the role of love

Lex Fridman (1:22:19.940)

in your relationship with your dad?

Zev Weinstein (1:22:21.780)

Are you at a place mentally, as a man yourself,

Lex Fridman (1:22:25.980)

to admit that you love the guy?

Zev Weinstein (1:22:28.260)

I love my dad with the connection

Lex Fridman (1:22:32.580)

that I think I've had to very few things in the world.

Zev Weinstein (1:22:36.180)

I think my dad is one of the people that's

Lex Fridman (1:22:38.100)

allowed me to see myself.

Lex Fridman (1:22:40.500)

And I don't know who I would imagine myself to be

Lex Fridman (1:22:45.420)

if not for my dad.

Zev Weinstein (1:22:46.300)

That isn't to say that I agree with him on everything.

Lex Fridman (1:22:49.660)

But I think he's given me courage to accept myself

Lex Fridman (1:22:54.660)

and to believe that I can teach myself where I'm

Lex Fridman (1:23:00.260)

unable to learn from convention.

Lex Fridman (1:23:02.980)

So I love my dad very dearly, yes.

Lex Fridman (1:23:07.820)

Is there ways in which you wish you could be a better son?

Zev Weinstein (1:23:12.860)

Firstly, I'd like to say I'm sure before I figure out

Lex Fridman (1:23:16.780)

exactly what those are.

Zev Weinstein (1:23:18.620)

I think whenever I come to conclusions

Lex Fridman (1:23:22.660)

on what that means, I'm eager to take them.

Lex Fridman (1:23:28.820)

What do you mean by that?

Lex Fridman (1:23:31.020)

What do you mean by a conclusion?

Zev Weinstein (1:23:32.420)

If I have an idea for how to be a better son,

Lex Fridman (1:23:35.340)

I think I'm inclined to try to be that person.

Zev Weinstein (1:23:39.140)

I think that's true of almost anything.

Lex Fridman (1:23:41.060)

I think if I have ideas for improvement,

Zev Weinstein (1:23:44.820)

it would be wasteful not to act on them.

Lex Fridman (1:23:49.340)

So I suppose one thing I could say

Zev Weinstein (1:23:55.260)

is that I think idealism and what could almost

Lex Fridman (1:24:03.100)

be considered naivete is not necessarily

Zev Weinstein (1:24:07.900)

a lacking of maturity, but instead an obligation

Lex Fridman (1:24:18.340)

to those older than us who have lived and seen too much

Zev Weinstein (1:24:27.700)

to fully believe in what is naive and right

Lex Fridman (1:24:34.500)

without the assistance of the young

Zev Weinstein (1:24:41.980)

to reinspire traditional idealism.

Lex Fridman (1:24:46.580)

And so perhaps instead of trying to be more mature all the time,

Zev Weinstein (1:24:53.660)

I should spend some time trying to be an idealistic form of hope

Lex Fridman (1:24:59.740)

in the lives of people who maybe have seen too much

Zev Weinstein (1:25:04.220)

to retain all of that original hope.

Lex Fridman (1:25:07.660)

So that's something that's difficult,

Lex Fridman (1:25:11.500)

but especially appearing in public

Lex Fridman (1:25:15.100)

as someone as young as I am, I think

Zev Weinstein (1:25:18.180)

anything I do, which is juvenile by choice,

Lex Fridman (1:25:21.300)

will be held against me.

Lex Fridman (1:25:24.460)

But maybe that's a sacrifice that I have to make.

Lex Fridman (1:25:26.980)

I have to retain some sort of youthful hope and optimism.

Zev Weinstein (1:25:30.820)

Yeah, I can't.

Lex Fridman (1:25:32.220)

I mean, I'm going to get teary eyed now, but I have allergies.

Lex Fridman (1:25:36.980)

But also, this is pretty powerful what you're saying.

Lex Fridman (1:25:39.100)

I certainly share your ideas.

Zev Weinstein (1:25:40.420)

It's something I struggle with just by instinct.

Lex Fridman (1:25:44.220)

You should read The Idiot by Dostoevsky.

Zev Weinstein (1:25:46.340)

By instinct, I love being naive and seeing

Lex Fridman (1:25:52.420)

the world from a hopeful perspective,

Zev Weinstein (1:25:54.540)

from an optimistic perspective.

Lex Fridman (1:25:56.460)

And it's sad that that is something

Zev Weinstein (1:26:00.100)

you pay a price for in this world,

Lex Fridman (1:26:03.060)

like in the academic world, especially as you're coming up

Zev Weinstein (1:26:06.700)

through schooling.

Lex Fridman (1:26:07.940)

But just actually, it's a hit on your reputation

Zev Weinstein (1:26:10.740)

throughout your life.

Lex Fridman (1:26:12.180)

And it's a sad truth, but you have to, for many things,

Zev Weinstein (1:26:15.980)

if it's a principle you hold, you

Lex Fridman (1:26:19.140)

have to be willing to pay the costs.

Lex Fridman (1:26:21.780)

And ultimately, I believe that in part,

Lex Fridman (1:26:26.380)

a hopeful view will help you realize

Zev Weinstein (1:26:30.460)

the best version of yourself.

Lex Fridman (1:26:31.860)

Because optimism is a kind of, optimism is productive.

Zev Weinstein (1:26:37.740)

Like believing that the world is and can be amazing

Lex Fridman (1:26:44.820)

allows you to create a more amazing world somehow.

Zev Weinstein (1:26:47.340)

I mean, I'm not sure if it's the human nature

Lex Fridman (1:26:51.020)

of a fundamental law of physics.

Zev Weinstein (1:26:52.500)

I don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:26:53.060)

But believe in the impossible in the sense

Zev Weinstein (1:26:55.100)

being optimistic about the thing.

Lex Fridman (1:26:57.900)

It's similar, going back to what you've said,

Zev Weinstein (1:27:00.900)

is believing that a radical, that a powerful single idea,

Lex Fridman (1:27:03.920)

that a single individual can revolutionize some framework

Zev Weinstein (1:27:09.700)

that we're operating in that will change

Lex Fridman (1:27:11.980)

the world for the better.

Zev Weinstein (1:27:12.980)

Believing that allows you to have the chance

Lex Fridman (1:27:16.140)

to create that.

Lex Fridman (1:27:17.740)

And so I'm with you on the optimism.

Lex Fridman (1:27:19.860)

But you may have to pay a cost of optimism

Lex Fridman (1:27:23.500)

and naive hopefulness.

Lex Fridman (1:27:26.780)

I mean, in some sense, optimism limits freedom.

Zev Weinstein (1:27:31.020)

I think if we don't really have much choice in choosing

Lex Fridman (1:27:36.180)

what is perfect, if it exists as an ideal,

Zev Weinstein (1:27:41.620)

then there isn't much room for creativity.

Lex Fridman (1:27:45.620)

And that's a danger of optimism, is someone

Zev Weinstein (1:27:47.580)

who would like to be creative.

Lex Fridman (1:27:50.660)

I think it was Warren Zeevon said,

Zev Weinstein (1:27:54.260)

accepting dreams, you're never really free.

Lex Fridman (1:27:56.260)

And that's something I think about a lot.

Zev Weinstein (1:28:00.100)

He's an interesting guy, also.

Lex Fridman (1:28:01.380)

I really like him.

Zev Weinstein (1:28:04.340)

On that topic, you do have a bit of an appreciation

Lex Fridman (1:28:08.780)

and connection with music.

Zev Weinstein (1:28:09.820)

I saw you play some guitar a few months ago.

Lex Fridman (1:28:15.620)

Can you put, in a philosophical sense,

Lex Fridman (1:28:18.540)

your connection to music?

Lex Fridman (1:28:20.900)

What insights about life, about just the way

Lex Fridman (1:28:24.180)

you see the world, do you get from music?

Lex Fridman (1:28:26.060)

I think the role music has played in my life

Zev Weinstein (1:28:29.060)

was originally motivated by wanting

Lex Fridman (1:28:33.140)

to prove things to myself.

Zev Weinstein (1:28:35.460)

I really have no ear for music.

Lex Fridman (1:28:37.540)

I have a terrible sense of pitch.

Lex Fridman (1:28:41.100)

And I think a lot of music relies

Lex Fridman (1:28:43.420)

on very standard teaching.

Zev Weinstein (1:28:45.180)

If you think about lessons, for example, music lessons,

Lex Fridman (1:28:50.300)

there's a routine to them, which is so archaic and traditional

Zev Weinstein (1:28:56.420)

that there's no room for deviation.

Lex Fridman (1:28:59.300)

I think all of that suggested to me

Zev Weinstein (1:29:03.380)

that I would never have a relationship with music.

Lex Fridman (1:29:06.380)

I loved listening to music.

Zev Weinstein (1:29:07.780)

It was just difficult to me.

Lex Fridman (1:29:09.740)

It saddened me.

Zev Weinstein (1:29:12.780)

I wanted to know if there was any way I could build

Lex Fridman (1:29:15.900)

a connection to music, given who I am, my own idiosyncrasies,

Lex Fridman (1:29:22.700)

what challenges I have.

Lex Fridman (1:29:25.580)

I decided to try to learn music theory

Zev Weinstein (1:29:27.820)

before I touched an instrument.

Lex Fridman (1:29:32.780)

I think that gave me a very unique opportunity instead

Zev Weinstein (1:29:35.420)

of spending my time fruitlessly at the beginning

Lex Fridman (1:29:38.860)

on the syntax of a particular instrument.

Zev Weinstein (1:29:41.020)

This is how you, this is your posture on the piano.

Lex Fridman (1:29:43.580)

This is how you hold your fingers.

Zev Weinstein (1:29:45.900)

I tried instead to learn what made music work.

Lex Fridman (1:29:50.460)

And the wonderful thing about that

Zev Weinstein (1:29:52.700)

was I'm pretty sure that any instrument with discrete notes

Lex Fridman (1:29:56.940)

is mine for the taking within a day or so of having

Zev Weinstein (1:30:00.780)

the ability to play with it.

Lex Fridman (1:30:03.100)

So I think approaching music abstractly

Zev Weinstein (1:30:07.860)

gave me the ability to instantiate it everywhere.

Lex Fridman (1:30:13.780)

And I think it also taught me something about self teaching.

Zev Weinstein (1:30:18.380)

Recently, I've tried getting into classical music

Lex Fridman (1:30:22.060)

because, at least traditionally, this

Zev Weinstein (1:30:24.860)

is the thing which is thought to require the most

Lex Fridman (1:30:28.980)

rigor and traditional teaching.

Zev Weinstein (1:30:35.460)

I think it's essentially taught me,

Lex Fridman (1:30:37.860)

even if I'll never be a great classical performer,

Zev Weinstein (1:30:41.540)

that there is nothing one can't really

Lex Fridman (1:30:45.380)

teach themself in this era.

Lex Fridman (1:30:48.340)

So I've been enjoying whatever connection I have with music.

Lex Fridman (1:30:53.980)

The other thing I'll say about it

Zev Weinstein (1:30:56.140)

is that it's a very rewarding learning process.

Lex Fridman (1:31:00.300)

We know, for example, that music accesses our neurochemicals

Zev Weinstein (1:31:07.300)

very directly.

Lex Fridman (1:31:09.100)

And if you teach yourself a little bit of theory

Lex Fridman (1:31:14.340)

and are able to instantiate it on an instrument

Lex Fridman (1:31:19.220)

without wasting your time or spending your time tediously

Zev Weinstein (1:31:23.660)

on learning the particulars of that instrument,

Lex Fridman (1:31:28.020)

you can instantly sit down and access your own dopamine loops.

Lex Fridman (1:31:32.300)

And so you don't really need to motivate yourself with music

Lex Fridman (1:31:35.940)

because you're giving your brain drugs.

Lex Fridman (1:31:39.380)

Who needs motivation to give themselves drugs?

Lex Fridman (1:31:43.980)

And learn something.

Lex Fridman (1:31:45.860)

So I think more people should be playing music.

Lex Fridman (1:31:53.300)

I think a lot of people don't realize how easy it

Zev Weinstein (1:31:55.580)

can be to approach if you take a sort of unstandard approach.

Lex Fridman (1:32:01.300)

And the unstandard approach in your sense

Zev Weinstein (1:32:03.020)

was understanding the theory first,

Lex Fridman (1:32:05.060)

and then just from the foundation of the theory,

Zev Weinstein (1:32:08.500)

be able to then just take on any instrument

Lex Fridman (1:32:12.980)

and start creating something that sounds reasonably good

Zev Weinstein (1:32:17.820)

or learning something that sounds reasonably good.

Lex Fridman (1:32:19.860)

And then plugging into the, as you call them,

Zev Weinstein (1:32:23.860)

the dopamine loops of your brain,

Lex Fridman (1:32:26.460)

allowing yourself to enjoy the process.

Lex Fridman (1:32:29.140)

What about the pain in the ass rigorous process of practice?

Lex Fridman (1:32:34.220)

So is there something about my dopamine loops, for example,

Zev Weinstein (1:32:37.460)

that enjoys doing the same thing over and over and over again

Lex Fridman (1:32:40.340)

and watching myself improve?

Zev Weinstein (1:32:42.380)

I think that's because music is more effective at accessing us

Lex Fridman (1:32:47.900)

when it's played correctly.

Lex Fridman (1:32:49.780)

And I think you play, I'm positive that you play music

Lex Fridman (1:32:53.860)

much more correctly than I do.

Lex Fridman (1:32:56.060)

So if you are going to sit down and play something

Lex Fridman (1:32:59.340)

that you've learned, that piece will be much more satisfying

Zev Weinstein (1:33:03.340)

to your ears and to your brain than if I

Lex Fridman (1:33:06.620)

were to play that piece just sitting down

Zev Weinstein (1:33:08.660)

with an instrument.

Lex Fridman (1:33:11.220)

But it's sort of a trade off with freedom and rigor

Zev Weinstein (1:33:18.380)

because even if I should be spending more of my time

Lex Fridman (1:33:22.900)

practicing rigorously, I know I don't have to to make me happy.

Zev Weinstein (1:33:28.260)

Well, Jocko Willink, I think, has this saying

Lex Fridman (1:33:31.500)

that discipline is freedom.

Lex Fridman (1:33:33.580)

So maybe the repetition of the disciplined repetition

Lex Fridman (1:33:39.500)

is actually one of the mechanisms of achieving freedom.

Zev Weinstein (1:33:42.940)

It's another way to get to freedom,

Lex Fridman (1:33:45.380)

that it doesn't have to be a constraint,

Lex Fridman (1:33:47.660)

but in a sense, unlocks greater sets of opportunity

Lex Fridman (1:33:52.540)

than results in a deeper experience of freedom.

Zev Weinstein (1:33:56.260)

Maybe.

Lex Fridman (1:33:56.900)

Particularly if you're thinking about discipline

Lex Fridman (1:34:01.340)

and method for improvisation, there

Lex Fridman (1:34:08.060)

are a million pieces that you could improvise

Zev Weinstein (1:34:10.260)

with the same discipline in how to approach

Lex Fridman (1:34:14.140)

that improvisation.

Lex Fridman (1:34:16.180)

So I think it's true that discipline promotes freedom

Lex Fridman (1:34:23.940)

if you insert a layer of indirection.

Zev Weinstein (1:34:28.740)

Because I think if you're trying to learn

Lex Fridman (1:34:32.660)

one piece that was written 400 years ago

Lex Fridman (1:34:35.820)

and you're playing it over and over again,

Lex Fridman (1:34:38.820)

there is nothing personal or creative about that process,

Zev Weinstein (1:34:46.100)

even if it's beautiful and satisfying.

Lex Fridman (1:34:49.660)

There has to be some sort of discipline applied

Zev Weinstein (1:34:53.140)

to the creativity of self.

Lex Fridman (1:34:55.980)

So I think that is the layer of indirection

Zev Weinstein (1:35:01.540)

which reconciles both approaches to freedom and discipline

Lex Fridman (1:35:06.580)

and enjoyment of music.

Zev Weinstein (1:35:09.460)

Discipline applied to the creativity of self.

Lex Fridman (1:35:15.260)

Damn, Zev.

Zev Weinstein (1:35:16.460)

Thank you.

Lex Fridman (1:35:18.140)

Now, as an aging man yourself, if you

Zev Weinstein (1:35:22.780)

were to give advice to young folks today

Lex Fridman (1:35:26.580)

of how to approach life and maybe advice to yourself,

Zev Weinstein (1:35:30.060)

is there some way you could condense a set of principles,

Lex Fridman (1:35:35.220)

a set of advices you would give to yourself

Lex Fridman (1:35:38.780)

and to other young folks of how to live life?

Lex Fridman (1:35:43.660)

Sure.

Zev Weinstein (1:35:44.140)

I would say that with the collapse of systems

Lex Fridman (1:35:49.780)

that have existed for thousands of years,

Zev Weinstein (1:35:55.380)

whatever is happening with universities

Lex Fridman (1:35:57.700)

might be an example of some system that may or may not

Zev Weinstein (1:36:00.700)

be decaying.

Lex Fridman (1:36:02.540)

I think with the destruction of important systems,

Zev Weinstein (1:36:09.740)

there is a unique opportunity to invest in oneself.

Lex Fridman (1:36:15.620)

And I think that is always the right approach,

Zev Weinstein (1:36:19.580)

provided that the investment one makes in his self

Lex Fridman (1:36:23.540)

is obligated towards humanity as a whole.

Lex Fridman (1:36:28.980)

And I think that is the great struggle of my generation.

Lex Fridman (1:36:36.140)

Will we create our own paths that

Lex Fridman (1:36:38.700)

are capable of saving whatever is collapsing?

Lex Fridman (1:36:42.500)

Or will we be squashed by the debris?

Lex Fridman (1:36:46.500)

And I hope to articulate what patterns

Lex Fridman (1:36:52.620)

I see this struggle taking over the years

Zev Weinstein (1:36:55.620)

that my generation becomes particularly

Lex Fridman (1:36:58.260)

active in the world as an important force.

Zev Weinstein (1:37:02.660)

I think already we're important as a demographic

Lex Fridman (1:37:06.300)

to particular markets.

Lex Fridman (1:37:07.380)

But I should hope that our voices will matter as well,

Lex Fridman (1:37:11.140)

starting very soon.

Lex Fridman (1:37:12.740)

So I would try to think about that.

Lex Fridman (1:37:16.180)

That would be my advice.

Zev Weinstein (1:37:19.340)

It's a silly question to ask, perhaps.

Lex Fridman (1:37:21.500)

But a bit of a Russian one.

Zev Weinstein (1:37:25.100)

It's silly because you're young, but I

Lex Fridman (1:37:28.460)

don't think it's actually silly because you're young.

Lex Fridman (1:37:31.740)

Do you ponder your mortality?

Lex Fridman (1:37:34.420)

And are you just afraid of death in general?

Lex Fridman (1:37:40.060)

So tying us back to our previous conversations

Lex Fridman (1:37:46.220)

about abstraction versus experience,

Zev Weinstein (1:37:53.260)

which is determining our notions of our life and our world,

Lex Fridman (1:37:59.140)

death is interesting in that it is obviously hyper

Zev Weinstein (1:38:04.940)

important to a person's life.

Lex Fridman (1:38:07.380)

And it is something that, for the most part,

Zev Weinstein (1:38:09.220)

no human will really experience and be able to reflect upon.

Lex Fridman (1:38:15.580)

So our notions of death are sort of proof

Zev Weinstein (1:38:20.420)

that if we want to make the most of our lives,

Lex Fridman (1:38:22.740)

we have to think abstractly and relying not at all at times

Zev Weinstein (1:38:29.620)

on experiential thought and understandings

Lex Fridman (1:38:37.100)

because we can't really experience death and reflect

Zev Weinstein (1:38:41.380)

upon it hence and use it to motivate us.

Lex Fridman (1:38:43.540)

It has to remain some sort of abstraction.

Lex Fridman (1:38:45.700)

And I think if we have trouble comprehending true abstraction,

Lex Fridman (1:38:53.220)

we tend to view ourselves as nearly immortal.

Lex Fridman (1:38:58.380)

And I think that's very dangerous.

Lex Fridman (1:39:00.340)

So one concrete implication for my belief in abstraction

Zev Weinstein (1:39:07.020)

would be that we all need to be aware of our own deaths.

Lex Fridman (1:39:14.660)

And we need to understand concretely

Zev Weinstein (1:39:19.260)

the boundaries of our lifetimes.

Lex Fridman (1:39:22.660)

And no amount of experience can really motivate that.

Zev Weinstein (1:39:26.940)

It has to be driven by thought and abstraction in theory.

Lex Fridman (1:39:31.780)

That's one of the deepest elements

Zev Weinstein (1:39:34.900)

of what it means to be human is our ability

Lex Fridman (1:39:36.780)

to form abstractions about our mortality versus animals.

Zev Weinstein (1:39:41.260)

I think there's just something really fundamental

Lex Fridman (1:39:44.380)

about our interaction with the abstractions of death.

Lex Fridman (1:39:49.340)

And there's a lot of philosophers

Lex Fridman (1:39:54.340)

that say that that's actually core to everything

Zev Weinstein (1:39:59.860)

we create in this world, which is us struggling

Lex Fridman (1:40:03.860)

with this impossible to understand idea of mortality.

Zev Weinstein (1:40:11.300)

I mean, I'm drawn to this idea because both the mystery of it

Lex Fridman (1:40:17.300)

but also just from the human experience perspective,

Zev Weinstein (1:40:19.700)

it seems that you get a lot of meaning from stuff ending.

Lex Fridman (1:40:25.300)

It's kind of sad the flip side of that

Zev Weinstein (1:40:27.100)

to think that stuff won't be as meaningful if it doesn't end,

Lex Fridman (1:40:31.700)

if it's not finite.

Lex Fridman (1:40:33.220)

But it seems like resources gain value from being finite.

Lex Fridman (1:40:38.220)

And that's true for time.

Zev Weinstein (1:40:40.100)

That's true for the deliciousness of ice cream.

Lex Fridman (1:40:43.020)

That's true for love, for everything, for music,

Lex Fridman (1:40:46.700)

and so on.

Lex Fridman (1:40:47.380)

And yeah, it seems deeply human to try to, as you said,

Zev Weinstein (1:40:55.460)

concretize the abstractions of mortality

Lex Fridman (1:40:58.140)

even though we can never truly experience it

Zev Weinstein (1:41:00.500)

because that's the whole point of it.

Lex Fridman (1:41:02.460)

Once it ends, you can't experience it.

Zev Weinstein (1:41:04.460)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:41:05.780)

Again, another ridiculous question.

Zev Weinstein (1:41:07.900)

OK.

Lex Fridman (1:41:10.860)

What do you think is the meaning of it all?

Lex Fridman (1:41:13.020)

What's the meaning of life?

Lex Fridman (1:41:14.900)

From your deep thinking about this world,

Zev Weinstein (1:41:20.700)

is there a good way to answer any

Lex Fridman (1:41:22.660)

of the why questions about this existence here on Earth?

Lex Fridman (1:41:26.620)

And as I said, we're here in part by principle

Lex Fridman (1:41:28.860)

and in part by accident.

Lex Fridman (1:41:30.980)

And a lot of the things which bring us joy

Lex Fridman (1:41:36.180)

are programmed to bring us joy to ensure

Zev Weinstein (1:41:39.300)

our evolutionary success.

Lex Fridman (1:41:42.300)

And so I would not necessarily consider

Zev Weinstein (1:41:51.060)

all of the things which bring us joy to be meaningful.

Lex Fridman (1:41:57.260)

I think they play a very obvious role and a clear pattern,

Lex Fridman (1:42:03.180)

and we don't have much choice in that.

Lex Fridman (1:42:06.140)

I think that outrules the idea of joy

Zev Weinstein (1:42:10.980)

being the meaning of life.

Lex Fridman (1:42:13.020)

I think it's a nice thing we get to have,

Zev Weinstein (1:42:19.900)

even if it's not inherently meaningful.

Lex Fridman (1:42:22.340)

I think the most wonderful thing that we have ever been given

Zev Weinstein (1:42:36.620)

has been our ability to, as I said,

Lex Fridman (1:42:42.180)

observe what transcends us as humans.

Lex Fridman (1:42:47.860)

And I think to live a meaningful life is to see that

Lex Fridman (1:42:52.060)

and hopefully contribute to that.

Lex Fridman (1:42:56.180)

So to try to understand what makes us human

Lex Fridman (1:42:58.900)

and to transcend that and in some small way contribute to it

Zev Weinstein (1:43:03.540)

in the finite time we have here.

Lex Fridman (1:43:08.380)

Yeah.

Zev Weinstein (1:43:11.780)

Those are some powerful words.

Lex Fridman (1:43:13.220)

Thank you.

Zev Weinstein (1:43:13.740)

You're a truly special human being.

Lex Fridman (1:43:15.980)

It's really an honor to talk to you.

Zev Weinstein (1:43:17.620)

I can't, I'm just, I'm a newborn fan of yours

Lex Fridman (1:43:23.180)

and I can't wait to see how you push the world.

Zev Weinstein (1:43:25.540)

Please embrace the fear you feel and be bold.

Lex Fridman (1:43:30.420)

And I think you will do some special things in this world.

Zev Weinstein (1:43:34.980)

I'm confident if the world doesn't destroy you

Lex Fridman (1:43:37.620)

and I hope it doesn't.

Zev Weinstein (1:43:38.660)

Be strong, be brave.

Lex Fridman (1:43:41.300)

You're an inspiration.

Zev Weinstein (1:43:42.580)

Keep doing your thing.

Lex Fridman (1:43:44.220)

And thanks for talking today.

Zev Weinstein (1:43:46.060)

Thank you so much, Les.

Lex Fridman (1:43:48.500)

Thanks for listening to this conversation with Zev Weinstein

Lex Fridman (1:43:51.260)

and thank you to our sponsors,

Lex Fridman (1:43:53.260)

ExpressVPN, Grammarly Grammar Assistant,

Zev Weinstein (1:43:56.620)

Simply Safe Home Security and Magic Spoon Low Carb Cereal.

Lex Fridman (1:44:00.980)

So the choice is privacy, grammar, safety or health.

Zev Weinstein (1:44:04.620)

Choose wisely, my friends.

Lex Fridman (1:44:06.060)

And if you wish, click the sponsor links below

Zev Weinstein (1:44:08.620)

to get a discount and to support this podcast.

Lex Fridman (1:44:11.780)

And now let me leave you with some words from Aristotle.

Zev Weinstein (1:44:15.300)

Knowing yourself is the beginning of all wisdom.

Lex Fridman (1:44:19.980)

Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

Zev Weinstein (20:00.320)

for saying I love America, that I'm a Republican,

Lex Fridman (20:03.960)

a Donald Trump supporter, and it takes elegance

Lex Fridman (20:07.080)

and grace and skill to avoid those labels

Lex Fridman (20:12.240)

so that people can actually listen

Zev Weinstein (20:13.780)

to the contents of your words

Lex Fridman (20:15.680)

versus the summarization that results

Zev Weinstein (20:20.040)

from just the labels that they can pin on you.

Lex Fridman (20:24.400)

Are you cognizant of the skill required there

Zev Weinstein (20:27.120)

of being able to communicate

Lex Fridman (20:28.440)

without being branded a Republican or a Democrat

Lex Fridman (20:31.520)

in this particular set of conversations?

Lex Fridman (20:34.000)

I'm sure there's other dangerous labels

Zev Weinstein (20:35.960)

that could be attached.

Lex Fridman (20:38.000)

I don't think there's any way of avoiding that right now.

Zev Weinstein (20:42.300)

It might not be anyone's best effort to really try.

Lex Fridman (20:47.520)

I think the thing I can say, which will most speak to that,

Zev Weinstein (20:52.140)

which I truly believe, is that participating

Lex Fridman (20:57.400)

in modern conventional politics

Zev Weinstein (21:01.040)

is not being inherently political

Lex Fridman (21:04.560)

in a generative sense.

Zev Weinstein (21:06.480)

It's this repeated trope where politics now

Lex Fridman (21:11.960)

is not about creating new political ideologies.

Zev Weinstein (21:14.920)

It's about defending ideologies which already exist

Lex Fridman (21:17.720)

so that everyone can keep what they have.

Lex Fridman (21:20.580)

And that's where all of the name calling

Lex Fridman (21:23.280)

and the labeling really comes in.

Zev Weinstein (21:26.520)

It's an attempt to constrict whatever may be generated

Lex Fridman (21:31.520)

to standard conversations and discussions

Lex Fridman (21:37.580)

so that arguments can be straw manned and defeated

Lex Fridman (21:42.460)

and people can keep what they have

Zev Weinstein (21:43.940)

because everyone's very, very scared.

Lex Fridman (21:48.880)

I want to be very political,

Lex Fridman (21:51.660)

but not in a standard political sense

Lex Fridman (21:54.680)

where I'm defending a particular party

Zev Weinstein (21:57.540)

or place on a spectrum.

Lex Fridman (22:00.300)

I would like to play some role in inventing new spectrums

Lex Fridman (22:04.740)

and I think that's most important politically

Lex Fridman (22:07.260)

because above most else, politics is about real power

Lex Fridman (22:13.740)

and conventional politicians have real power

Lex Fridman (22:17.980)

and that power will find terrible outlets

Zev Weinstein (22:21.320)

if new spectrums for that power to live are not invented.

Lex Fridman (22:26.540)

So you're not afraid of politics.

Zev Weinstein (22:28.020)

You're afraid of political discourse at the deepest,

Lex Fridman (22:30.940)

richest level of what political discourse is supposed to mean.

Zev Weinstein (22:35.060)

Actually, I'm very afraid of it, but once again, we have no.

Lex Fridman (22:39.100)

That's not paralyzing for you.

Zev Weinstein (22:41.020)

You feel like it's a responsibility,

Lex Fridman (22:42.300)

you're ready to take it on.

Zev Weinstein (22:43.600)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (22:44.800)

This is a good sign.

Zev Weinstein (22:46.340)

This is, you're a special human.

Lex Fridman (22:48.540)

Okay, let's talk maybe fun, maybe profound.

Zev Weinstein (22:52.860)

We talked about philosophers, philosophy.

Lex Fridman (22:55.380)

Who's your favorite philosopher?

Zev Weinstein (22:57.500)

Like somebody in your current time but neither influential

Lex Fridman (23:01.740)

or you just enjoy his, her ideas

Lex Fridman (23:06.380)

or writing or anything like that?

Lex Fridman (23:08.900)

Weirdly, I'll give an answer

Zev Weinstein (23:11.540)

which sort of doesn't have much to do

Lex Fridman (23:14.720)

with whom I might imagine myself to be.

Zev Weinstein (23:18.580)

I like Thomas Aquinas at the moment.

Lex Fridman (23:21.660)

I think he's very inspirational to me

Zev Weinstein (23:24.260)

given what we're going through

Lex Fridman (23:26.260)

and that's not because his particular ideas

Zev Weinstein (23:30.700)

of religion or God or unmoved movers

Lex Fridman (23:35.780)

are particularly inspirational to me

Lex Fridman (23:40.980)

and I don't even think they were necessarily right.

Lex Fridman (23:45.340)

But he was introducing aspects of the scientific method

Zev Weinstein (23:52.100)

during one of the darkest periods in human history

Lex Fridman (23:55.460)

when we had lost all hope and reason

Lex Fridman (23:57.940)

and ability to think logically.

Lex Fridman (24:01.260)

So I think he was really something of a light in the dark

Lex Fridman (24:06.100)

and I think we need to look to people like that

Lex Fridman (24:09.420)

at the moment.

Zev Weinstein (24:10.540)

The other reason why I think I need to learn from him

Lex Fridman (24:15.860)

is that even though he was doing something

Zev Weinstein (24:18.660)

which really needed to be done

Lex Fridman (24:20.660)

and introducing scientific thought and reason

Zev Weinstein (24:25.700)

to a time that lacked it,

Lex Fridman (24:30.420)

he was not saying anything that would have been offensive

Zev Weinstein (24:35.020)

to whatever powers were in play during his time.

Lex Fridman (24:39.140)

He was writing about the importance of faith in God

Lex Fridman (24:43.560)

and how we could prove it.

Lex Fridman (24:45.580)

And so it's important to remember, I suppose,

Zev Weinstein (24:49.980)

that having ideas that shape the world

Lex Fridman (24:55.500)

and which bring the world closer to what we can prove

Zev Weinstein (24:58.780)

it's supposed to be and how it's supposed to work

Lex Fridman (25:01.140)

does not always take some sort of grand contradiction

Zev Weinstein (25:04.140)

of whatever's in play.

Lex Fridman (25:06.700)

And the most courageous thing to do

Zev Weinstein (25:09.660)

may not always be the most helpful thing to do.

Lex Fridman (25:13.400)

And I think it's very easy for anyone with ideas

Zev Weinstein (25:18.400)

about how everything is broken to become very cynical

Lex Fridman (25:23.200)

and say, oh, the system, man, they're all wrong.

Zev Weinstein (25:27.840)

I think it takes another kind of discipline

Lex Fridman (25:32.600)

to be a person with real ideas

Lex Fridman (25:35.320)

and to make the world better

Lex Fridman (25:38.400)

without stepping on anyone's toes or contradicting anyone.

Zev Weinstein (25:41.960)

I have real respect for that.

Lex Fridman (25:43.160)

So being able to be,

Zev Weinstein (25:44.520)

when it's within your principles to operate,

Lex Fridman (25:46.360)

within the current system of thought.

Zev Weinstein (25:48.600)

Yeah, and not offend anyone, not say anything outlandish,

Lex Fridman (25:54.360)

but introduce the method

Zev Weinstein (25:57.080)

by which progress must be achieved.

Lex Fridman (26:00.360)

I think that takes a kind of maturity,

Zev Weinstein (26:03.520)

which is found very rarely now.

Lex Fridman (26:07.480)

And I really look to him for inspiration

Zev Weinstein (26:10.280)

despite whatever disagreements I may have

Lex Fridman (26:13.120)

with the minute details of his philosophy.

Zev Weinstein (26:16.120)

Yeah, it takes a lot of skill, a lot of character,

Lex Fridman (26:20.360)

and yeah, deep thinking to be able to operate

Zev Weinstein (26:23.480)

within the system when needed

Lex Fridman (26:25.200)

and having the fortitude and just the boldness

Zev Weinstein (26:29.840)

to step outside and to burn the system down when needed,

Lex Fridman (26:33.320)

but rarely, and opportune moments

Zev Weinstein (26:36.400)

that would actually have impact.

Lex Fridman (26:38.080)

I mean, it's ultimately about impact

Zev Weinstein (26:40.520)

within the society that you live in,

Lex Fridman (26:42.480)

not just making a statement that has no impact.

Zev Weinstein (26:46.480)

Yeah, and we were talking about how dangerous it is

Lex Fridman (26:50.080)

to do real philosophy at dangerous broken times.

Zev Weinstein (26:55.840)

He was going through the most broken time in history

Lex Fridman (26:59.000)

and he questioned the methods

Zev Weinstein (27:05.120)

which made a broken system able to survive.

Lex Fridman (27:10.120)

And he was so skilled and so graceful

Zev Weinstein (27:12.120)

that he became a saint in that tradition.

Lex Fridman (27:15.680)

And there's something for me to really learn from there.

Lex Fridman (27:19.080)

Do you draw any inspiration,

Lex Fridman (27:20.400)

have any interest in the sort of more modern philosophers,

Lex Fridman (27:23.320)

maybe the existentialists?

Lex Fridman (27:25.320)

I mean, Nietzsche is one of the early ones.

Lex Fridman (27:27.640)

Do you have thoughts on the guy in general

Lex Fridman (27:31.640)

or any of the other existentialists?

Zev Weinstein (27:34.040)

Well, with regard to Nietzsche,

Lex Fridman (27:36.480)

I think Yates might've said that he's the worst.

Zev Weinstein (27:40.840)

He was certainly filled with passionate intensity.

Lex Fridman (27:46.320)

I think...

Lex Fridman (27:47.160)

Was that a compliment?

Lex Fridman (27:48.000)

He was the worst or a criticism or both?

Zev Weinstein (27:52.240)

Yates had this big line,

Lex Fridman (27:53.640)

that the best lack all conviction,

Zev Weinstein (27:55.480)

the worst are filled with passionate intensity.

Lex Fridman (27:59.760)

So I think Nietzsche was destroyed

Zev Weinstein (28:04.760)

by the horrors of everything that went on around him.

Lex Fridman (28:10.800)

And I think he never really recovered from it.

Zev Weinstein (28:14.800)

I think that's because if you think about Nietzsche's

Lex Fridman (28:20.880)

philosophy, he was very opposed to any sort of acceptance

Zev Weinstein (28:25.880)

of what one had.

Lex Fridman (28:26.920)

One should always envy those who have more

Lex Fridman (28:29.200)

and use that envy to fuel their ideas.

Lex Fridman (28:33.200)

To fuel their growth and accept whatever

Zev Weinstein (28:39.880)

the human condition and desires are

Lex Fridman (28:42.960)

and use those desires to want more and more

Lex Fridman (28:46.680)

and make use of your greed.

Lex Fridman (28:49.920)

I think it's very difficult to be truly happy

Zev Weinstein (28:54.920)

if the thing which you pride yourself most on

Lex Fridman (29:03.920)

is never being satisfied.

Lex Fridman (29:07.520)

And I think Nietzsche was never satisfied

Lex Fridman (29:09.280)

and that was the danger of his philosophy.

Zev Weinstein (29:12.200)

I think also with his amoralism,

Lex Fridman (29:15.360)

there is no good or evil.

Zev Weinstein (29:18.000)

I sort of disagree with that on a pretty fundamental basis.

Lex Fridman (29:22.680)

I think that our notion of morality

Zev Weinstein (29:27.760)

is by no means subjective.

Lex Fridman (29:29.840)

It's really the proxy for the fitness of a society.

Zev Weinstein (29:35.000)

I think whatever we consider ethical,

Lex Fridman (29:39.160)

like don't steal, don't murder, don't do this,

Zev Weinstein (29:44.360)

societies have a very difficult time running.

Lex Fridman (29:47.320)

It's very hard to run a civilization

Zev Weinstein (29:48.880)

when everyone is stealing from everyone else

Lex Fridman (29:51.720)

and people are murdering each other

Lex Fridman (29:54.080)

and committing these things,

Lex Fridman (29:56.680)

which we would consider atrocities.

Lex Fridman (30:00.480)

So I think we also, we know this

Lex Fridman (30:03.680)

because I think very similar notions of morality

Zev Weinstein (30:07.200)

have evolved convergently from different traditions.

Lex Fridman (30:12.800)

I think good is a proxy for a civilization's fitness

Lex Fridman (30:17.800)

and the good news is that that means that evil

Lex Fridman (30:24.000)

in being anathema to that good

Zev Weinstein (30:27.000)

must therefore be the opposite of stable

Lex Fridman (30:33.040)

in whatever way that it's evil.

Lex Fridman (30:34.920)

And that means that good will always be more stable

Lex Fridman (30:37.680)

than evil and the only way evil can really win

Zev Weinstein (30:41.440)

is like if everyone dies.

Lex Fridman (30:43.320)

So I think that's a good thing.

Zev Weinstein (30:46.240)

Everyone dies, so.

Lex Fridman (30:49.400)

So wait, can you say that again?

Lex Fridman (30:51.360)

Good is a proxy for society's what?

Lex Fridman (30:54.240)

Good is a proxy for the stability

Lex Fridman (30:56.600)

and fitness of a civilization and evil.

Lex Fridman (30:59.760)

Damn, that's a good definition.

Zev Weinstein (31:01.000)

Thank you.

Lex Fridman (31:01.840)

So you're throwing some bombs today.

Zev Weinstein (31:02.920)

Okay, all right.

Lex Fridman (31:06.720)

Okay, this is exciting.

Zev Weinstein (31:08.880)

Sorry, sorry to interrupt your flow there,

Lex Fridman (31:11.240)

but it's just a damn good line.

Zev Weinstein (31:12.880)

Thank you.

Lex Fridman (31:13.720)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (31:15.440)

So in that sense, that's a kind of optimistic view

Lex Fridman (31:18.280)

that if by definition good is a proxy for stability,

Zev Weinstein (31:21.480)

then it's going to be stable

Lex Fridman (31:22.920)

unless the entire world just blows itself up.

Lex Fridman (31:25.880)

So good wins in the end by definition.

Lex Fridman (31:28.360)

Yeah.

Zev Weinstein (31:29.480)

Or no, well, good wins unless it all goes

Lex Fridman (31:35.600)

to complete destruction.

Zev Weinstein (31:39.080)

That's beautifully put.

Lex Fridman (31:40.320)

Thank you.

Zev Weinstein (31:41.160)

On a topic of sort of good and evil being human illusions,

Lex Fridman (31:49.120)

you've said that more broadly than that about truth,

Zev Weinstein (31:53.920)

that it is easier in some ways to be unified under truth

Lex Fridman (31:56.880)

because it is universal than it is to be unified

Zev Weinstein (31:59.800)

under belief, which at times can be completely subjective.

Lex Fridman (32:02.960)

So what is the nature of truth to you?

Zev Weinstein (32:06.560)

Can we understand the world objectively

Lex Fridman (32:09.800)

or is most of what we can understand about the world

Zev Weinstein (32:12.920)

is just a subjective opinions

Lex Fridman (32:16.880)

that we kind of all agree on in these little collectives

Lex Fridman (32:20.280)

and over time it kind of evolves completely detached

Lex Fridman (32:25.080)

from objective reality.

Zev Weinstein (32:26.560)

I think this is the greatest argument for objectivity

Lex Fridman (32:32.160)

is that something that is objectively true

Zev Weinstein (32:35.480)

cannot be true to me and untrue to you.

Lex Fridman (32:40.200)

You can feel that it's untrue,

Lex Fridman (32:42.400)

but that would be unproductive

Lex Fridman (32:45.520)

and create unnecessary tension and conflict.

Zev Weinstein (32:50.520)

I think this is one reason for the importance of science

Lex Fridman (32:55.880)

as a tool for stability.

Zev Weinstein (32:58.760)

If science is the search for truth and truth can never really be,

Lex Fridman (33:07.760)

I shouldn't say that,

Zev Weinstein (33:08.760)

truth should never be an engine of conflict

Lex Fridman (33:12.840)

because no two people should disagree on something

Zev Weinstein (33:15.800)

which is objectively true,

Lex Fridman (33:18.480)

then in some sense, search for truth is searching

Zev Weinstein (33:22.520)

for a common ground where we can all exist

Lex Fridman (33:27.240)

and live without contradicting or attacking each other.

Lex Fridman (33:32.400)

Do you have a hope that there is a lot of common ground

Lex Fridman (33:34.680)

to be discovered?

Zev Weinstein (33:36.360)

Sure, I mean, if we continue scientifically,

Lex Fridman (33:41.080)

we are discovering truth

Lex Fridman (33:42.720)

and in that discovering common ground

Lex Fridman (33:45.120)

on which we can all agree.

Zev Weinstein (33:46.600)

That's one reason why I think caring about science,

Lex Fridman (33:51.240)

if you have a culture which cares very deeply about science,

Zev Weinstein (33:54.600)

that's a culture which is not necessarily bound

Lex Fridman (33:59.160)

to injure unwarranted internal conflict.

Zev Weinstein (34:04.120)

I think that's one reason that I'm so passionate

Lex Fridman (34:06.000)

about science is it's search for universal ground.

Zev Weinstein (34:09.400)

Let me just throw out an example

Lex Fridman (34:11.600)

of a modern day philosophical thinker.

Zev Weinstein (34:14.400)

We'll keep your dad, Eric Weinstein out of the picture

Lex Fridman (34:17.240)

for a sec, but he does happen to be an example of one,

Lex Fridman (34:21.080)

but Jordan Peterson is an example of another,

Lex Fridman (34:23.600)

somebody who thinks deeply about this world.

Zev Weinstein (34:26.760)

His ideas are by a certain percent of the population,

Lex Fridman (34:30.400)

sort of speaking of truth, are labeled as dangerous.

Lex Fridman (34:34.800)

Why do you think his ideas

Lex Fridman (34:36.720)

or just ideas of these kinds of deep thinkers in general

Lex Fridman (34:40.760)

are labeled as dangerous in our modern world?

Lex Fridman (34:43.920)

Is it similar to what you've been discussing

Lex Fridman (34:46.320)

that in difficult times, philosophers become dangerous?

Lex Fridman (34:50.720)

Or is there something specific

Lex Fridman (34:52.320)

about these particular thinkers in our time?

Lex Fridman (34:54.920)

Well, I think Jordan Peterson is very anti establishment

Zev Weinstein (34:58.880)

in a lot of his beliefs.

Lex Fridman (35:01.320)

He's an unconventional thinker.

Lex Fridman (35:03.760)

And I think we need, regardless of whatever

Lex Fridman (35:10.200)

Jordan's particular views and beliefs are,

Lex Fridman (35:13.240)

and if they bring about more danger than truth,

Lex Fridman (35:18.240)

or if they don't, it's very important

Zev Weinstein (35:21.720)

to have fundamental thinkers

Lex Fridman (35:24.560)

who exist outside of a conventional framework.

Lex Fridman (35:28.760)

So do I think that he's dangerous?

Lex Fridman (35:33.280)

I think by existing outside of a system which is known,

Zev Weinstein (35:40.600)

he is dangerous.

Lex Fridman (35:41.680)

And I think we have to, in some sense,

Zev Weinstein (35:45.880)

in some sense, we have to welcome danger in that capacity

Lex Fridman (35:50.280)

because it will be our only way out of this.

Lex Fridman (35:53.840)

So regardless of whether his beliefs are right or wrong,

Lex Fridman (36:03.480)

I'm pretty adamant about the fact

Zev Weinstein (36:06.200)

that we need to support thought which may rescue us.

Lex Fridman (36:11.200)

And that thought can appear radical or dangerous at times.

Lex Fridman (36:16.440)

But ultimately, if you allow for it,

Lex Fridman (36:20.160)

this is kind of the difficult discussion of free speech

Lex Fridman (36:22.280)

and so on, is ultimately difficult ideas

Lex Fridman (36:27.920)

will pave the way for progress.

Zev Weinstein (36:30.720)

Yeah, and I'd actually, I'd like to slow you down there

Lex Fridman (36:34.280)

because I think like one of the issues

Zev Weinstein (36:37.800)

we were discussing previously was the fact

Lex Fridman (36:40.840)

that language often destroys our ability to think.

Zev Weinstein (36:48.240)

When we're talking about whether his ideas are radical,

Lex Fridman (36:52.120)

I don't know if we mean radical in the traditional sense

Zev Weinstein (36:55.960)

of having to do with the root of a problem

Lex Fridman (37:00.120)

or in the more modern sense of being very extreme.

Lex Fridman (37:05.560)

And I think that's completely by design,

Lex Fridman (37:09.800)

I think fundamental thought,

Zev Weinstein (37:13.360)

which semantically would once be considered radical thought

Lex Fridman (37:18.880)

became very dangerous.

Lex Fridman (37:20.640)

And now it's become synonymous with extreme

Lex Fridman (37:23.120)

or dangerous thought, which means that anyone

Zev Weinstein (37:26.120)

who considers themselves a radical thinker

Lex Fridman (37:29.000)

is semantically also a dangerous or extreme thinker.

Zev Weinstein (37:36.480)

These are not helpful labels in a sense

Lex Fridman (37:38.680)

that the moment you say radical or extremist thinker,

Lex Fridman (37:42.960)

then you're just, well, how do I put it?

Lex Fridman (37:46.720)

You're not helping the public discourse, exchange of ideas.

Lex Fridman (37:52.720)

But through no fault of our own,

Lex Fridman (37:54.840)

the concept of radical as having to do with a root

Zev Weinstein (37:58.160)

is it's an obvious concept for which there must be language

Lex Fridman (38:03.160)

and a lot of the attack on thought has to do

Zev Weinstein (38:06.920)

with attacking language, which communicates conceptually.

Lex Fridman (38:12.840)

So like this is an example of how our world

Zev Weinstein (38:16.120)

is becoming increasingly Orwellian.

Lex Fridman (38:18.960)

It's just language is being used to destroy

Zev Weinstein (38:21.360)

our ability to think.

Lex Fridman (38:23.600)

I think I can't remember exactly what the numbers are,

Lex Fridman (38:26.000)

but I read some statistic about how greatly

Lex Fridman (38:28.800)

the average English vocabulary has been used

Lex Fridman (38:32.400)

and the vocabulary has decreased since 1960.

Lex Fridman (38:36.440)

It was like some incredible number.

Zev Weinstein (38:38.400)

It really baffled me.

Lex Fridman (38:39.880)

It's like, how are people less able to think in a time

Zev Weinstein (38:44.360)

when the world is supposed to be growing

Lex Fridman (38:46.480)

at a never before seen rate?

Zev Weinstein (38:50.400)

It's like, we can't keep on, we can't sustain this growth

Lex Fridman (38:54.400)

if we destroy everyone's ability to think

Zev Weinstein (38:58.440)

because the growth requires thinking

Lex Fridman (39:00.960)

and we're ruining the tools for it.

Zev Weinstein (39:05.520)

I watched your podcast with Noam Chomsky

Lex Fridman (39:09.440)

and I think one interesting thing which he discussed

Zev Weinstein (39:14.000)

was how language is more used to develop thoughts

Lex Fridman (39:18.440)

within our own head than it is used to communicate

Zev Weinstein (39:21.600)

those thoughts with others.

Lex Fridman (39:24.040)

If the language doesn't change, even if its usage changes,

Zev Weinstein (39:28.080)

when language is destroyed in communication,

Lex Fridman (39:32.320)

it also stymies our ability to think reasonably

Lex Fridman (39:38.640)

and I'm very, very worried.

Lex Fridman (39:41.600)

But the language in communication requires a medium

Lex Fridman (39:46.960)

and there's a lot of different mediums.

Lex Fridman (39:48.280)

So there's social media, there's Twitter,

Zev Weinstein (39:51.440)

there's writing books, there's blog posts,

Lex Fridman (39:54.880)

there's podcasts, there's YouTube videos,

Zev Weinstein (40:00.800)

all of things you have dipped a toe in

Lex Fridman (40:04.800)

in your exploration of different mediums of communication.

Zev Weinstein (40:08.320)

Which do you see yourself, this might be just a poetic way

Lex Fridman (40:12.680)

of asking are you gonna do a podcast,

Lex Fridman (40:14.200)

but broader picture, what do you think as an intellectual

Lex Fridman (40:19.120)

in this world for you personally

Lex Fridman (40:22.880)

would be the path for communicating your ideas to the world?

Lex Fridman (40:26.600)

What are the mediums you are currently drawn to

Lex Fridman (40:30.040)

out of the ones I mentioned or maybe something I didn't?

Lex Fridman (40:33.400)

To answer your question concretely before abstractly,

Zev Weinstein (40:39.600)

I'm scared but I need to do a podcast.

Lex Fridman (40:42.720)

It's important, it is my obligation

Zev Weinstein (40:45.880)

as a member of my generation.

Lex Fridman (40:47.720)

I really hope that more people my age start to do this

Zev Weinstein (40:51.160)

because we will be the people in charge of new ideas

Lex Fridman (40:56.160)

which either sink or swim.

Lex Fridman (40:59.120)

How upset will your dad be

Lex Fridman (41:01.320)

when your podcast quickly becomes more popular than his?

Zev Weinstein (41:04.680)

I think he would be negatively upset.

Lex Fridman (41:07.240)

I'll say he'd be proud, he's a good dad.

Zev Weinstein (41:09.640)

I really think so, yeah.

Lex Fridman (41:11.960)

Sorry to interrupt.

Zev Weinstein (41:13.680)

Yeah, so but then zooming out, do you think podcasts,

Lex Fridman (41:17.000)

are you excited by the possibility

Lex Fridman (41:20.000)

of other mediums outside of podcasting to communicate ideas?

Lex Fridman (41:24.080)

I would be if people still read books

Zev Weinstein (41:27.360)

or did things like that.

Lex Fridman (41:30.800)

I'm somewhat guilty of this.

Zev Weinstein (41:33.440)

A lot of the books I read are very technical

Lex Fridman (41:38.960)

and then my, to absorb like really deep modern conversations

Zev Weinstein (41:43.960)

I listen to podcasts and I don't really read many books

Lex Fridman (41:52.360)

on like the matters that we're discussing, for example.

Zev Weinstein (41:55.440)

It's fascinating because you're making me think

Lex Fridman (41:57.480)

of something that I align with you very much

Zev Weinstein (42:00.800)

of how I consume deep thinkers currently.

Lex Fridman (42:03.480)

So what happens is somebody who thinks deeply

Zev Weinstein (42:05.480)

about the world will write a book, Jordan Peterson example,

Lex Fridman (42:10.280)

and instead of reading their book,

Zev Weinstein (42:12.020)

I'll just listen to podcast conversations

Lex Fridman (42:14.360)

of them talking about the book, which I find to,

Zev Weinstein (42:19.000)

this is really sad, but I find that to be

Lex Fridman (42:22.240)

a more compelling way to think about their ideas

Zev Weinstein (42:25.720)

because they're often challenged in certain ways

Lex Fridman (42:28.800)

in those conversations and they're forced to,

Zev Weinstein (42:31.840)

after having boiled them down and really thought

Lex Fridman (42:34.200)

through them enough to write a book.

Lex Fridman (42:36.240)

So it's almost like they needed to go through the process

Lex Fridman (42:38.480)

of writing a book just so they could think through,

Zev Weinstein (42:41.280)

convert the language in their minds

Lex Fridman (42:43.080)

into something more concrete,

Lex Fridman (42:44.480)

and then the actual exchange of ideas,

Lex Fridman (42:47.600)

the actual communication of ideas with the public happens

Zev Weinstein (42:49.960)

not with the book, but after the book,

Lex Fridman (42:52.960)

with that person going on a book tour

Lex Fridman (42:56.360)

and communicating the ideas.

Lex Fridman (42:58.120)

Well, there are two meanings I make

Zev Weinstein (43:00.880)

of why not too many people spend much

Lex Fridman (43:03.880)

of their time reading anymore.

Zev Weinstein (43:05.920)

One interpretation is that we've lost our attention spans

Lex Fridman (43:10.400)

to our phones, people can't concentrate on a page

Zev Weinstein (43:13.600)

if it takes them a minute to read,

Lex Fridman (43:15.360)

we're too busy watching TikToks or whatever people do.

Zev Weinstein (43:20.000)

The other interpretation would be that language

Lex Fridman (43:24.320)

and verbal communication has,

Zev Weinstein (43:28.200)

as well as some amount of communication,

Lex Fridman (43:31.020)

which is done through facial expression,

Zev Weinstein (43:33.880)

tone of voice, et cetera.

Lex Fridman (43:35.440)

These are means of communication

Zev Weinstein (43:38.000)

that have evolved along with humanity

Lex Fridman (43:42.160)

over thousands and thousands of years.

Lex Fridman (43:44.560)

So we know that we are built to communicate in this way.

Lex Fridman (43:51.920)

We have had writing for much less time.

Zev Weinstein (43:57.940)

It is a system that we invented,

Lex Fridman (43:59.900)

not a system which evolved and is innately part

Zev Weinstein (44:04.640)

of humanity or the human mind.

Lex Fridman (44:11.520)

And so we are designed to consume conversation

Zev Weinstein (44:16.680)

by our own evolution.

Lex Fridman (44:18.560)

We are designed to consume writing

Zev Weinstein (44:24.180)

by some process of symbols

Lex Fridman (44:26.000)

that's evolved over a couple of thousand years.

Zev Weinstein (44:28.360)

It makes sense to me why many are much more compelled

Lex Fridman (44:35.840)

to listen to podcasts, for example,

Zev Weinstein (44:38.600)

than they are to read books.

Lex Fridman (44:41.280)

It could be that this is simply a technological progression

Zev Weinstein (44:47.640)

which has displaced reading conventionally

Lex Fridman (44:52.640)

instead of some sort of maladaptation of our minds,

Zev Weinstein (44:57.480)

which has corrupted our attention spans.

Lex Fridman (45:01.320)

Likely there's some combination

Zev Weinstein (45:03.480)

which determines why people spend much less time reading.

Lex Fridman (45:07.440)

But I don't think it's necessarily because we're all broken.

Zev Weinstein (45:10.680)

It may simply have to do with the fact

Lex Fridman (45:12.640)

that we are designed to listen through our ears

Lex Fridman (45:16.640)

and speak through our mouths.

Lex Fridman (45:17.720)

And we are not innately designed to communicate over a page.

Zev Weinstein (45:25.040)

Yeah, there's an exciting coupling to me

Lex Fridman (45:26.760)

between like few second TikTok videos

Zev Weinstein (45:30.600)

that are fun and addicting,

Lex Fridman (45:32.280)

and then the three, four hour podcasts,

Zev Weinstein (45:34.840)

which are both really popular in our current time.

Lex Fridman (45:39.040)

So people are both hungry for the visual stimulation

Zev Weinstein (45:42.600)

of internet humor and memes.

Lex Fridman (45:45.520)

I'm a huge fan of, and also slow moving deep conversations.

Lex Fridman (45:53.080)

And that might, you know, there's a lot of,

Lex Fridman (45:56.320)

I mean, it's part of your generation

Zev Weinstein (45:57.840)

to define what that looks like moving forward.

Lex Fridman (45:59.880)

There were a lot of people, like Joe Rogan's

Zev Weinstein (46:02.240)

one of the people that kind of started,

Lex Fridman (46:05.600)

accidentally stumbled into the discovery

Zev Weinstein (46:08.560)

that this is like a thing.

Lex Fridman (46:10.280)

And now people are kind of scrambling to figure out

Lex Fridman (46:13.880)

why is this a thing?

Lex Fridman (46:15.400)

Like, why is there so much hunger

Lex Fridman (46:16.800)

for long form conversations?

Lex Fridman (46:18.720)

And how do we optimize that medium

Zev Weinstein (46:21.100)

for further, further expression of deep ideas

Lex Fridman (46:23.480)

and all that kind of stuff.

Lex Fridman (46:24.640)

And YouTube is a really interesting medium

Lex Fridman (46:27.480)

for that as well.

Zev Weinstein (46:28.880)

Like video, sharing of videos,

Lex Fridman (46:31.800)

mostly YouTube is used with a spirit of like

Zev Weinstein (46:35.240)

the TikTok spirit, if I can put it in that way,

Lex Fridman (46:37.440)

which is like, how do I have quick moving things

Zev Weinstein (46:41.100)

that even if you're expressing difficult ideas,

Lex Fridman (46:43.120)

they should be quick and exciting and visual and switching.

Lex Fridman (46:46.360)

But there's a lot of exploration there

Lex Fridman (46:48.200)

to see what can we do something deeper

Lex Fridman (46:50.720)

and nobody knows.

Lex Fridman (46:52.480)

And you're part of the, you have a YouTube channel

Zev Weinstein (46:56.700)

releasing one video every few years.

Lex Fridman (47:00.240)

So, so your momentum is currently quite slow,

Lex Fridman (47:03.520)

but perhaps it'll accelerate.

Lex Fridman (47:05.160)

You're one of the people that gets to define that medium.

Zev Weinstein (47:08.880)

Is that, do you enjoy that, the visual YouTube medium

Lex Fridman (47:12.680)

of communication as well?

Zev Weinstein (47:14.440)

I know that when the topic of conversation

Lex Fridman (47:21.560)

or the means by which a conversation is communicated

Zev Weinstein (47:26.860)

or an idea is communicated,

Lex Fridman (47:28.740)

if that is sufficiently interesting to me,

Zev Weinstein (47:34.560)

I will read a book on it.

Lex Fridman (47:35.780)

I would listen to a podcast on it.

Zev Weinstein (47:37.380)

I would watch a video on it.

Lex Fridman (47:40.720)

I think if I'm very curious about something,

Zev Weinstein (47:43.880)

I will consume it however possible.

Lex Fridman (47:46.400)

I think when I have to consume things

Zev Weinstein (47:48.640)

which really don't interest me very much,

Lex Fridman (47:52.620)

I'm indeed much more ready to consume them

Zev Weinstein (47:55.720)

through some sort of video or discussion

Lex Fridman (47:57.880)

than I am through like a long tedious book.

Lex Fridman (48:01.840)

So for the breadth of acquiring knowledge,

Lex Fridman (48:05.960)

video is good.

Zev Weinstein (48:06.920)

For the depth, the medium doesn't matter.

Lex Fridman (48:11.160)

I think it'd be fun to ask you about

Zev Weinstein (48:12.920)

some big philosophical questions

Lex Fridman (48:16.180)

to see if you have an opinion on them.

Lex Fridman (48:17.880)

Do you think there's a free will

Lex Fridman (48:21.400)

or is free will just an illusion?

Zev Weinstein (48:24.080)

Well, I think classical mechanics would tell us

Lex Fridman (48:28.600)

that if we were to know every piece of information

Zev Weinstein (48:33.900)

about a system and understand the rules

Lex Fridman (48:36.180)

which govern that system,

Zev Weinstein (48:38.160)

we would be completely able to predict the future

Lex Fridman (48:42.360)

with complete accuracy.

Lex Fridman (48:44.240)

So if something could know everything about our lives,

Lex Fridman (48:50.400)

it could freeze time and understand the position

Zev Weinstein (48:53.360)

of every neuron in my mind about to fire,

Lex Fridman (48:58.280)

no decision could be unpredictable.

Zev Weinstein (49:02.640)

In some sense, there is that sort of fate.

Lex Fridman (49:07.940)

I think that doesn't make the decisions we make illegitimate

Zev Weinstein (49:11.980)

even if some grand supercomputer could

Lex Fridman (49:16.820)

understand what decisions we would make beforehand

Zev Weinstein (49:19.940)

with complete certainty.

Lex Fridman (49:21.540)

I think we're making legitimate systems

Zev Weinstein (49:24.300)

within a system that has no freedom.

Lex Fridman (49:27.420)

We're making legitimate systems

Zev Weinstein (49:29.140)

within a system that has no freedom.

Lex Fridman (49:30.740)

Can you explain what you mean by that?

Zev Weinstein (49:33.580)

Yeah, so if we were to have just a simple pendulum

Lex Fridman (49:40.120)

and I told you how long the rope was,

Zev Weinstein (49:44.780)

we froze it at a particular point

Lex Fridman (49:47.820)

and I told you how high above the ground the weight was

Lex Fridman (49:52.460)

and the motion of a pendulum is something

Lex Fridman (49:57.060)

which is easy for everyone to imagine, I could,

Zev Weinstein (50:03.140)

if we had all of that information,

Lex Fridman (50:04.900)

you could ask me what will the pendulum do

Lex Fridman (50:08.540)

six and a half minutes from now?

Lex Fridman (50:10.100)

And we would have a precise answer.

Zev Weinstein (50:12.860)

That's an example of a very simple system

Lex Fridman (50:16.100)

with a very simple Lagrangian.

Lex Fridman (50:19.220)

And we could completely predict the future.

Lex Fridman (50:23.180)

The pendulum has no ability to do anything

Zev Weinstein (50:26.740)

that would surprise us.

Lex Fridman (50:28.540)

Weirdly, that's true of whatever this four dimensional,

Zev Weinstein (50:35.060)

crazy world we live in looks like if we were to understand

Lex Fridman (50:41.860)

where every piece of this system was at any given time

Lex Fridman (50:44.740)

and we understand the laws of motion,

Lex Fridman (50:47.300)

how everything worked,

Zev Weinstein (50:49.740)

if we could compute all of that information somehow,

Lex Fridman (50:52.420)

which we will never be able to do,

Zev Weinstein (50:55.040)

we would, every decision you will ever make

Lex Fridman (51:00.500)

could be predicted by that computer.

Zev Weinstein (51:03.020)

That doesn't mean that your decisions are illegitimate.

Lex Fridman (51:05.580)

You are really making those decisions,

Lex Fridman (51:08.040)

but with a completely predictable outcome.

Lex Fridman (51:10.980)

So I'm just sort of a little bit high at the moment

Zev Weinstein (51:14.580)

on the poetry of a system within a system

Lex Fridman (51:19.420)

that has no freedom.

Lex Fridman (51:21.260)

So the human experience is the system we've created.

Lex Fridman (51:25.640)

Within the system that has no freedom,

Lex Fridman (51:27.240)

but that system that we've created

Lex Fridman (51:30.140)

has a feeling of freedom that, to us,

Zev Weinstein (51:35.540)

ants feels as much more real than the physics,

Lex Fridman (51:44.660)

as we understand it, of the underlying base system.

Lex Fridman (51:48.940)

So it's almost like not important

Lex Fridman (51:51.460)

what the physics of the base system is,

Zev Weinstein (51:53.780)

that for what we've created,

Lex Fridman (51:56.100)

the nature of the human experience is there is a free will.

Zev Weinstein (52:02.500)

Or there is something that feels close enough to a free will

Lex Fridman (52:06.540)

that it may not be worth spending too much time

Zev Weinstein (52:14.140)

on the fact that it's something of an illusion.

Lex Fridman (52:16.940)

We will never build a computer that knows everything

Zev Weinstein (52:19.300)

about every piece of the universe at a given time.

Lex Fridman (52:23.340)

And so for all intensive purposes,

Zev Weinstein (52:26.640)

our decisions are up to us.

Lex Fridman (52:28.700)

We just happen to know that their outcomes

Zev Weinstein (52:30.900)

could be predicted with enough information.

Lex Fridman (52:33.420)

So speaking of supercomputers,

Zev Weinstein (52:36.380)

they can predict every single thing

Lex Fridman (52:37.780)

about what's going to ever happen.

Lex Fridman (52:41.620)

What do you think about the philosophical thought experiment

Lex Fridman (52:46.420)

of us living in a simulation?

Lex Fridman (52:48.900)

Do you often find yourself pondering

Lex Fridman (52:52.100)

of us living in a simulation of this question?

Lex Fridman (52:54.780)

Do you think it is at all a useful thought experiment?

Lex Fridman (52:57.980)

I think it's very easy to become fascinated

Zev Weinstein (53:02.020)

with all of these possibilities,

Lex Fridman (53:03.900)

and they're completely legitimate possibilities.

Lex Fridman (53:10.140)

Is there some validity to solipsism?

Lex Fridman (53:15.140)

Well, it can never be falsified or disproven.

Zev Weinstein (53:18.420)

So, I mean, sure, you could be a figment of my imagination.

Lex Fridman (53:24.820)

It doesn't mean that I will act according

Zev Weinstein (53:27.500)

to this possibility.

Lex Fridman (53:28.900)

I'm not gonna call you mean names.

Lex Fridman (53:30.700)

And just to test the system,

Lex Fridman (53:34.220)

to see how robust it is to distortions.

Zev Weinstein (53:37.220)

Yeah, so, I mean, all of these existential

Lex Fridman (53:40.620)

thought experiments are completely possible.

Zev Weinstein (53:42.660)

We could be brains in jars.

Lex Fridman (53:45.420)

It doesn't mean that our experience will feel any less valid.

Lex Fridman (53:51.540)

And so it doesn't make a difference to me

Lex Fridman (53:53.820)

if you are some number of ones and zeros,

Zev Weinstein (53:59.580)

or you are a figment of my imagination,

Lex Fridman (54:02.500)

which lives in a stored away brain.

Zev Weinstein (54:06.820)

It will never really change my experience

Lex Fridman (54:10.540)

knowing that that's a possibility.

Lex Fridman (54:12.540)

And so I try to avoid making decisions

Lex Fridman (54:19.500)

based on such contemplations.

Zev Weinstein (54:21.860)

If we take this previous issue of free will,

Lex Fridman (54:27.180)

I could decide that because I have no choice in my life,

Zev Weinstein (54:34.220)

if I lie around in bed all day and eat chips,

Lex Fridman (54:39.340)

I was destined to do that thing.

Lex Fridman (54:41.140)

And if I make that decision, then I was destined

Lex Fridman (54:43.100)

to do that thing.

Zev Weinstein (54:44.180)

It would be a really poor decision for me to make.

Lex Fridman (54:47.060)

I have school and a dozen commitments.

Zev Weinstein (54:51.220)

There's somebody listening to this right now,

Lex Fridman (54:53.700)

probably hundreds of people sitting down,

Zev Weinstein (54:56.460)

eating chips and feeling terrible about them.

Lex Fridman (54:59.020)

So how dare you, sir?

Zev Weinstein (55:00.580)

If they're listening to this,

Lex Fridman (55:02.380)

they're clearly curious about possibilities of thought.

Zev Weinstein (55:07.380)

It's not the bed and the chips that makes the man.

Lex Fridman (55:10.780)

It's not the bed or the chips that makes the man.

Zev Weinstein (55:13.540)

Yet another quotable from Zev Weinstein.

Lex Fridman (55:16.300)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (55:18.580)

But you don't think of it as a useful thought experiment

Lex Fridman (55:21.220)

from an engineering perspective of virtual reality,

Zev Weinstein (55:26.220)

of thinking how we can create

Lex Fridman (55:28.020)

further and further immersive worlds.

Zev Weinstein (55:30.140)

Like would it be possible to create worlds

Lex Fridman (55:32.380)

that are so immersive that we would rather live

Lex Fridman (55:35.220)

in that world versus the real world?

Lex Fridman (55:38.060)

I mean, that's another possible trajectory

Zev Weinstein (55:40.420)

of the world that you're growing up in

Lex Fridman (55:42.820)

is we're more and more immersing ourselves

Zev Weinstein (55:47.340)

into the digital world.

Lex Fridman (55:48.780)

For now it's screens and looking at the screens

Lex Fridman (55:51.260)

and socializing on the screens.

Lex Fridman (55:52.900)

But it's possible to potentially create a world

Zev Weinstein (55:55.220)

that's also visually for all of our human senses

Lex Fridman (55:58.940)

as immersive as the physical world.

Lex Fridman (56:01.940)

And then, you know, to me it's an engineering question

Lex Fridman (56:06.100)

of how difficult is it to create a world

Zev Weinstein (56:08.580)

that's as immersive and more fun

Lex Fridman (56:11.660)

than the world we currently live in.

Zev Weinstein (56:14.540)

It's a terrifying concept and I hate to say it.

Lex Fridman (56:16.780)

We might live happier lives in a virtual reality headset

Zev Weinstein (56:20.300)

30 years from now than we are currently living.

Lex Fridman (56:24.100)

This future, the digital future, worries you.

Zev Weinstein (56:28.460)

It worries me.

Lex Fridman (56:29.700)

On the other hand, it may be a better alternative

Zev Weinstein (56:34.900)

to fighting for whatever people are clinging onto

Lex Fridman (56:40.660)

in our non virtual world or at least the world

Zev Weinstein (56:44.940)

that we don't yet know is virtual.

Lex Fridman (56:47.380)

So embrace the future.

Zev Weinstein (56:49.140)

We've been talking a lot about thinkers.

Lex Fridman (56:52.460)

Now, in the broad definition of philosophy,

Zev Weinstein (56:59.780)

you kind of included innovators of all form.

Lex Fridman (57:03.540)

Do you find it useful to draw a distinction

Lex Fridman (57:06.060)

between thinkers and doers?

Lex Fridman (57:08.020)

I think that the most important gift we've ever been given

Zev Weinstein (57:13.980)

is our ability to observe the universe

Lex Fridman (57:18.100)

and think deductively about whatever principles,

Zev Weinstein (57:21.660)

transcend humanity.

Lex Fridman (57:23.820)

Because as we discussed, that's the closest thing

Zev Weinstein (57:28.820)

we will ever have to a universal experience

Lex Fridman (57:32.300)

is understanding things, which must be true everywhere.

Zev Weinstein (57:36.940)

In order for that, so I think if we're deciding

Lex Fridman (57:42.580)

that life is meaningful and the human experience

Zev Weinstein (57:46.100)

is meaningful, you could make a very convincing argument

Lex Fridman (57:50.220)

that its greatest meaning will be understanding

Zev Weinstein (57:54.140)

whatever transcends it.

Lex Fridman (57:58.300)

I think that's only sustainable if people are happy

Lex Fridman (58:05.540)

and well fed and things of market value are invented.

Lex Fridman (58:14.260)

And so I think we really need both to live meaningful

Lex Fridman (58:19.180)

and successful and possible lives.

Lex Fridman (58:23.900)

In terms of who my greatest heroes are,

Zev Weinstein (58:28.780)

I can't decide between figures like Einstein

Lex Fridman (58:34.100)

and Newton and Feynman, and on the other hand,

Zev Weinstein (58:37.700)

figures like Carey Mullis, for example.

Lex Fridman (58:43.500)

I think people like Einstein make our lives meaningful

Lex Fridman (58:48.340)

and people like Carey Mullis, who's probably responsible

Lex Fridman (58:53.180)

for saving hundreds of millions of lives,

Zev Weinstein (58:55.820)

make our lives possible and good.

Lex Fridman (59:02.300)

So in terms of where I would like to find myself

Zev Weinstein (59:10.620)

with these two different notions of achievement,

Lex Fridman (59:14.580)

I don't know what I would more like to achieve.

Zev Weinstein (59:18.300)

I have an inclination that it will be something scientific

Lex Fridman (59:22.260)

because I would like to bring meaning to humanity

Zev Weinstein (59:25.140)

instead of sustenance, but I think both are very important.

Lex Fridman (59:31.340)

We can't sustain our lives

Zev Weinstein (59:33.500)

if we don't keep growing technologically.

Lex Fridman (59:36.180)

I think people like you are making that possible

Zev Weinstein (59:38.620)

with computing because that's one of the few things

Lex Fridman (59:42.220)

that's really moving forward in a clear sense.

Zev Weinstein (59:49.980)

I think about this a great deal.

Lex Fridman (59:53.420)

So I think both are very important.

Lex Fridman (59:56.380)

So one example that's modern day inspiring figure