Jordan Peterson: Life, Death, Power, Fame, and Meaning
音乐与艺术政治与社会哲学与宗教技术与编程生物与进化
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AI 智能总结
乔丹·彼得森谈生死、权力、名声与意义
这是 Lex Fridman 与心理学家、作家 Jordan Peterson 的深度对话。Peterson 探讨了生命的意义、面对苦难的勇气、权力与责任的关系，以及他对现代文化战争的看法。对话充满了彼得森标志性的深度和情感强度。
生命意义心理学荣格神话后现代主义批判责任苦难
Jordan Peterson 是加拿大心理学家、多伦多大学教授，著有《生命的 12 条法则》《超越秩序》，是当代最具争议也最具影响力的公共知识分子之一，以对年轻人的深刻影响和对政治正确的批判而闻名。
📌 核心观点
- 面对深渊的勇气：彼得森以尼采的名言「与怪物战斗者，须谨防自己也成为怪物」开场，但他的回应是「凝视深渊足够长时间，你会看到光，而非黑暗」——这体现了他对苦难的核心态度：直面而非逃避。
- 意义与责任：彼得森认为生命的意义不是被找到的，而是通过承担责任创造的。他的核心信息是：「收拾好你的房间」——从最小的责任开始，逐步扩大你的秩序圈。
- 荣格心理学与神话：彼得森深受荣格影响，他认为古代神话和宗教故事包含了人类集体无意识的智慧，这些故事不是字面真理，而是关于如何在混沌与秩序之间导航的深刻隐喻。
- 对后现代主义的批判：彼得森认为后现代主义和新马克思主义是当代最危险的意识形态，它们通过解构所有价值体系，为权力斗争提供了意识形态掩护，最终导致虚无主义。
- 个人苦难与成长：彼得森分享了他和家人经历的严重健康危机，以及这些经历如何加深了他对苦难、韧性和意义的理解。他认为苦难是人类成长不可避免的一部分。
✨ 金句摘录
彼得森：与怪物战斗者，须谨防自己也成为怪物——但如果你凝视深渊足够长时间，你会看到光，而非黑暗。
彼得森：生命的意义不是被找到的，而是通过承担责任创造的——从收拾好你的房间开始。
彼得森：古代神话不是字面真理，而是关于如何在混沌与秩序之间导航的深刻隐喻。
📋 章节目录
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🔑 关键词
dontalkgotsaidthoughtgoinghumanbettermangodrealdeathdoingyourselfpersonconversationhellbecomeputisn
💬 精彩语录
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🎙️ 完整对话（4228 条）
Lex Fridman (00:00.000)
Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster.
不要与怪物战斗，以免你成为怪物。
Lex Fridman (00:03.880)
And if you gaze into the abyss,
如果你凝视深渊，
Lex Fridman (00:05.560)
the abyss gazes also into you.
深渊也在凝视着你。
Lex Fridman (00:08.960)
But I would say, bring it on.
但我想说，带上它吧。
Lex Fridman (00:13.060)
If you gaze into the abyss long enough,
如果你凝视深渊足够长的时间，
Jordan Peterson (00:15.280)
you see the light, not the darkness.
你看到的是光明，而不是黑暗。
Lex Fridman (00:18.320)
Are you sure about that?
你确定吗？
Jordan Peterson (00:20.220)
I'm betting my life on it.
我赌上我的生命。
Lex Fridman (00:24.320)
The following is a conversation with Jordan Peterson,
以下是与乔丹·彼得森的对话，
Jordan Peterson (00:27.240)
an influential psychologist, lecturer, podcast host,
一位有影响力的心理学家、讲师、播客主持人，
Lex Fridman (00:30.840)
and author of Maps of Meaning, 12 Rules for Life,
以及《意义地图》、《生活的 12 条规则》的作者，
Lex Fridman (00:34.840)
and Beyond Order.
和超越秩序。
Lex Fridman (00:37.740)
This is the Lex Readman podcast.
这是 Lex Readman 播客。
Jordan Peterson (00:39.660)
To support it, please check out our sponsors
为了支持它，请查看我们的赞助商
Lex Fridman (00:41.680)
in the description.
在描述中。
Lex Fridman (00:43.000)
And now, dear friends, here's Jordan Peterson.
现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是乔丹·彼得森。
Lex Fridman (00:48.040)
Dostoevsky wrote in The Idiot,
陀思妥耶夫斯基在《白痴》中写道，
Jordan Peterson (00:50.440)
spoken through the character of Prince Mishkin,
通过米什金王子的角色讲述，
Lex Fridman (00:52.920)
that beauty will save the world.
那种美丽将拯救世界。
Jordan Peterson (00:55.120)
Solzhenitsyn actually mentioned this in his Nobel Prize
索尔仁尼琴在他的诺贝尔奖中实际上提到了这一点
Lex Fridman (00:58.840)
acceptance speech.
Lex Fridman (01:00.220)
What do you think Dostoevsky meant by that?
Lex Fridman (01:02.480)
Was he right?
Jordan Peterson (01:04.120)
Well, I guess it's the divine that saves the world,
Lex Fridman (01:10.080)
let's say, you could say that by definition.
Lex Fridman (01:13.160)
And then you might say, well, are there pointers
Lex Fridman (01:16.400)
to that which will save the world,
Lex Fridman (01:18.300)
or that which eternally saves the world?
Lex Fridman (01:20.140)
And the answer to that, in all likelihood, is yes.
Lex Fridman (01:23.360)
And that's maybe truth, and love, and justice,
Lex Fridman (01:27.600)
and the classical virtues, beauty, perhaps,
Jordan Peterson (01:31.920)
in some sense, foremost among them.
Lex Fridman (01:34.640)
That's a difficult case to make, but definitely a pointer.
Lex Fridman (01:37.620)
Which direction is the arrow pointing?
Lex Fridman (01:39.480)
Well, the arrow's pointing up.
Jordan Peterson (01:40.640)
No, I think that that which it points to
Lex Fridman (01:43.240)
is what beauty points to.
Jordan Peterson (01:45.000)
It transcends beauty.
Lex Fridman (01:46.360)
It's more than beauty.
Lex Fridman (01:47.480)
And that speaks to the divine.
Lex Fridman (01:49.400)
It points to the divine.
Jordan Peterson (01:51.240)
Yeah, and I would say, again, by definition,
Lex Fridman (01:53.240)
because we could define the divine in some real sense.
Lex Fridman (01:56.480)
So one way of defining the divine is,
Lex Fridman (01:59.360)
what is divine to you is your most fundamental axiom.
Lex Fridman (02:03.480)
And you might say, well, I don't have a fundamental axiom.
Lex Fridman (02:06.040)
And I would say, that's fine,
Lex Fridman (02:07.280)
but then you're just confused,
Lex Fridman (02:09.620)
because you have a bunch of contradictory axioms.
Lex Fridman (02:11.960)
And you might say, well, I have no axioms at all.
Lex Fridman (02:14.040)
And then I'd say, well, you're just epistemologically
Jordan Peterson (02:16.240)
ignorant beyond comprehension, if you think that,
Lex Fridman (02:19.020)
because that's just not true at all.
Lex Fridman (02:20.640)
So you don't think a human being can exist
Lex Fridman (02:22.400)
within contradictions?
Jordan Peterson (02:24.160)
Well, yeah, we have to exist within contradiction.
Lex Fridman (02:26.280)
But when the contradictions make themselves manifest,
Jordan Peterson (02:29.840)
say in confusion with regard to direction,
Lex Fridman (02:33.020)
then the consequence of that technically is anxiety,
Lex Fridman (02:37.760)
and frustration, and disappointment,
Lex Fridman (02:39.340)
and all sorts of other negative emotions.
Lex Fridman (02:41.040)
But the cardinal negative emotion,
Lex Fridman (02:43.920)
signifying multiple pathways forward, is anxiety.
Jordan Peterson (02:48.840)
It's an entropy signal.
Lex Fridman (02:51.080)
But you don't think that kind of entropy signal
Lex Fridman (02:53.920)
can be channeled into beauty, into love?
Lex Fridman (02:58.520)
Why does beauty and love have to be clear, ordered, simple?
Jordan Peterson (03:04.480)
Well, I would say it probably doesn't have to be,
Lex Fridman (03:09.560)
it can't be reduced to clarity and simplicity.
Jordan Peterson (03:13.640)
Because when it's optimally structured,
Lex Fridman (03:15.880)
it's a balance between order and chaos, not order itself.
Jordan Peterson (03:20.880)
If it's too ordered, if music is too ordered,
Lex Fridman (03:23.280)
it's not acceptable.
Jordan Peterson (03:25.180)
It sounds like a drum machine, it's too repetitive,
Lex Fridman (03:27.740)
it's too predictable.
Jordan Peterson (03:29.540)
It has to have, well, it has to have some fire in it,
Lex Fridman (03:34.360)
along with the structure.
Jordan Peterson (03:36.020)
I was in Miami doing a seminar on Exodus
Lex Fridman (03:40.740)
with a number of scholars, and this is a beauty discussion.
Jordan Peterson (03:45.880)
When Moses first encounters the burning bush,
Lex Fridman (03:48.380)
it's not a conflagration that demands attention,
Jordan Peterson (03:52.420)
it's something that catches his attention.
Lex Fridman (03:55.580)
It's a phenomena, and that means to shine forth.
Lex Fridman (03:57.980)
And Moses has to stop and attend to it, and he does.
Lex Fridman (04:01.260)
And he sees this fire that doesn't consume the tree.
Lex Fridman (04:05.540)
And the tree, the tree is a structure, right?
Lex Fridman (04:07.740)
It's a tree like structure, it's a branching structure,
Jordan Peterson (04:10.100)
it's a hierarchical structure.
Lex Fridman (04:12.040)
It's a self similar structure, it's a fractal structure.
Lex Fridman (04:15.980)
And it's the tree of life,
Lex Fridman (04:17.140)
and it's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Lex Fridman (04:19.020)
And the fire in it is the transformation
Lex Fridman (04:23.060)
that's always occurring within every structure.
Lex Fridman (04:25.380)
And the fact that the fire doesn't consume the bush
Lex Fridman (04:28.560)
in that representation is an indication
Jordan Peterson (04:32.380)
of the balance of transformation with structure.
Lex Fridman (04:34.820)
And that balance is presented as God,
Lex Fridman (04:37.940)
and what attracts Moses to it in some sense is the beauty.
Lex Fridman (04:42.320)
Now it's the novelty and all that,
Lex Fridman (04:43.820)
but like a painting is like a burning bush,
Lex Fridman (04:46.480)
that's a good way of thinking about it, a great painting.
Jordan Peterson (04:48.780)
It's too much for people often.
Lex Fridman (04:51.280)
My house was, and will soon be again,
Jordan Peterson (04:55.080)
completely covered with paintings inside.
Lex Fridman (04:58.180)
And it was hard on people to come in there
Jordan Peterson (05:01.780)
because, well, my mother, for example, say,
Lex Fridman (05:04.580)
well, why would you wanna live in a museum?
Lex Fridman (05:07.060)
And I'd think, well, I would rather live in a museum
Lex Fridman (05:09.180)
than anywhere else in some real sense,
Lex Fridman (05:10.860)
but beauty is daunting, it scares people.
Lex Fridman (05:15.060)
They're terrified of buying art, for example,
Jordan Peterson (05:17.180)
because their taste is on display,
Lex Fridman (05:18.700)
and they should be terrified
Jordan Peterson (05:19.740)
because generally people have terrible taste.
Lex Fridman (05:22.300)
Now, that doesn't mean they shouldn't foster it
Lex Fridman (05:24.500)
and develop it, but, and you know,
Lex Fridman (05:26.380)
when you put your taste on display,
Jordan Peterson (05:28.400)
it really exposes you.
Lex Fridman (05:30.700)
Even to yourself as you walk past it every day.
Jordan Peterson (05:34.580)
Absolutely. This is who I am.
Lex Fridman (05:36.020)
Yeah, well, and look how mundane that is,
Lex Fridman (05:38.340)
and look how trite it is, and look at how cliched it is,
Lex Fridman (05:41.340)
and look at how sterile or too ordered it is, or too chaotic.
Jordan Peterson (05:45.100)
Or how quickly you start to take it for granted
Lex Fridman (05:47.140)
because you've seen it so many times.
Jordan Peterson (05:48.580)
Well, if it's a real piece of art, that doesn't happen.
Lex Fridman (05:51.540)
You notice the little details.
Jordan Peterson (05:53.340)
The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
Lex Fridman (05:55.700)
I mean, there are images, religious images in particular,
Lex Fridman (05:59.620)
so we could call them deep images,
Lex Fridman (06:02.080)
that people have been unpacking for 4,000 years
Lex Fridman (06:07.020)
and still haven't, I'll give you an example.
Lex Fridman (06:09.180)
This is a terrible example.
Jordan Peterson (06:12.540)
So, I did a lecture series on Genesis,
Lex Fridman (06:15.820)
and I got a lot of it unpacked, but by no means all of it.
Jordan Peterson (06:21.380)
When God kicks Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden,
Lex Fridman (06:25.140)
he puts cherubim with flaming swords at the gate
Jordan Peterson (06:28.380)
to stop human beings from reentering paradise.
Lex Fridman (06:31.860)
I thought, what the hell does that mean, cherubim,
Lex Fridman (06:34.100)
and why do they have flaming swords?
Lex Fridman (06:35.740)
I don't get that. What is that exactly?
Lex Fridman (06:38.740)
And then I found out from Matthew Pagel,
Lex Fridman (06:41.260)
who wrote a great book on symbolism in Genesis,
Jordan Peterson (06:44.180)
that cherubim are the supporting monsters of God.
Lex Fridman (06:48.060)
It's a very complicated idea,
Lex Fridman (06:50.100)
and that they are partly a representation of that
Lex Fridman (06:53.660)
which is difficult to fit into conceptual systems.
Jordan Peterson (06:57.100)
They've also got an angelic or demonic aspect.
Lex Fridman (07:00.940)
Take your pick.
Lex Fridman (07:02.260)
Why do they have flaming swords?
Lex Fridman (07:04.260)
Well, a sword is a symbol of judgment and the separation
Jordan Peterson (07:11.900)
of the wheat from the chaff.
Lex Fridman (07:13.260)
You use a sword to cut away, to cut away, and to carve.
Lex Fridman (07:18.500)
And a flaming sword is not only that which carves,
Lex Fridman (07:21.100)
it's that which burns.
Lex Fridman (07:23.300)
And what does it carve away and burn?
Lex Fridman (07:25.700)
Well, you want to get into paradise?
Jordan Peterson (07:28.380)
It carves away everything about you that isn't perfect.
Lex Fridman (07:32.500)
And so what does that mean?
Jordan Peterson (07:34.020)
Okay, well, here's part of what it means.
Lex Fridman (07:35.660)
This is a terrible thing.
Lex Fridman (07:37.700)
So you could say that the entire Christian narrative
Lex Fridman (07:41.020)
is embedded in that image.
Lex Fridman (07:43.820)
Why?
Lex Fridman (07:45.020)
Well, let's say that flaming swords are a symbol of death.
Jordan Peterson (07:48.580)
That seems pretty obvious.
Lex Fridman (07:50.780)
Let's say further that they're a symbol of apocalypse and hell.
Jordan Peterson (07:56.900)
That doesn't seem completely unreasonable.
Lex Fridman (07:59.540)
So here's an idea.
Jordan Peterson (08:02.260)
Not only do you have to face death,
Lex Fridman (08:04.820)
you have to face death and hell before you can get to paradise.
Jordan Peterson (08:09.180)
Hellish judgment and all that's embedded in that image.
Lex Fridman (08:13.540)
And a piece of art with an image like that
Jordan Peterson (08:16.580)
has all that information in it.
Lex Fridman (08:18.820)
And it shines forth in some fundamental sense.
Jordan Peterson (08:22.660)
It reaches into the back tendrils of your mind
Lex Fridman (08:25.620)
at levels you can't even comprehend and grips you.
Jordan Peterson (08:29.540)
I mean, that's why people go to museums and gaze at paintings
Lex Fridman (08:32.900)
they don't understand.
Lex Fridman (08:33.860)
And that's why they'll pay what's the most expensive objects
Lex Fridman (08:36.820)
in the world.
Jordan Peterson (08:37.700)
If it's not carbon fiber racing yachts,
Lex Fridman (08:39.740)
it's definitely classic paintings.
Jordan Peterson (08:42.900)
It's high level technological implements or it's classic art.
Lex Fridman (08:47.100)
Well, why are those things so expensive?
Lex Fridman (08:48.940)
Why do we build temples to house the images?
Lex Fridman (08:51.900)
Even secular people go to museums.
Jordan Peterson (08:54.660)
I'm secular.
Lex Fridman (08:55.820)
Well, are you in a museum?
Jordan Peterson (08:56.980)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (08:57.620)
Are you looking at art?
Jordan Peterson (08:58.620)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (08:59.460)
Well, what makes you think you're secular then?
Jordan Peterson (09:03.780)
It's arguable that the thing many, many centuries from now
Lex Fridman (09:07.460)
that will remain of all of human civilization will be our art.
Jordan Peterson (09:11.660)
Not even the words.
Lex Fridman (09:12.940)
Well, a book has remained a very long time, right?
Jordan Peterson (09:16.620)
The biblical writings have.
Lex Fridman (09:17.660)
Not that long.
Jordan Peterson (09:18.620)
A few millennia.
Lex Fridman (09:19.740)
That's right.
Lex Fridman (09:21.100)
But that's in the full arc of living organisms,
Lex Fridman (09:24.340)
perhaps will not be.
Jordan Peterson (09:25.180)
Well, we have images that are, we
Lex Fridman (09:27.500)
have artistic images that are at least 50,000 years old,
Jordan Peterson (09:30.660)
right, that have survived.
Lex Fridman (09:32.340)
And some of those are, they're already
Jordan Peterson (09:35.220)
profound in their symbolism.
Lex Fridman (09:36.740)
By we, do you mean humans?
Jordan Peterson (09:38.220)
Yeah, we found them.
Lex Fridman (09:39.380)
And they've lasted, they've lasted that long.
Lex Fridman (09:44.540)
And so, and then think about Europe.
Lex Fridman (09:48.100)
Secular people all over the world
Jordan Peterson (09:49.780)
make pilgrimages to Europe.
Lex Fridman (09:51.860)
Well, why?
Jordan Peterson (09:53.340)
Because of the beauty.
Lex Fridman (09:55.100)
Obviously, I mean, that's self evident.
Lex Fridman (09:58.620)
And it's partly because there are things
Lex Fridman (10:00.780)
in Europe that are so beautiful.
Lex Fridman (10:02.020)
They take your breath away, right?
Lex Fridman (10:03.300)
They make your hair stand on end.
Jordan Peterson (10:04.580)
They fill you with a sense of awe.
Lex Fridman (10:07.540)
And we need to see those things.
Jordan Peterson (10:10.460)
It's not optional.
Lex Fridman (10:11.380)
We need to see those things.
Jordan Peterson (10:13.020)
The cathedrals.
Lex Fridman (10:13.940)
I was in a cathedral in Vienna, and it was terribly beautiful.
Jordan Peterson (10:17.700)
Terribly beautiful.
Lex Fridman (10:18.500)
Well, it was terribly beautiful.
Lex Fridman (10:20.060)
Is beauty painful for you?
Lex Fridman (10:21.780)
Is that the highest form of beauty?
Lex Fridman (10:24.300)
It really challenges you?
Lex Fridman (10:25.660)
Oh, definitely.
Jordan Peterson (10:27.020)
Yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (10:27.620)
I got a good analysis of the statue of David.
Jordan Peterson (10:29.940)
Michelangelo says, you could be far more than you are.
Lex Fridman (10:33.980)
That's what that statue says.
Lex Fridman (10:35.940)
And this cathedral, we went down into the under structure of it.
Lex Fridman (10:41.140)
And there were three floors of bones from the plague.
Lex Fridman (10:46.220)
And there they all are.
Lex Fridman (10:47.540)
And then that cathedral is on top of it.
Jordan Peterson (10:50.100)
It's no joke to go visit a place like that.
Lex Fridman (10:53.380)
No, it rattles you to the core.
Lex Fridman (10:56.340)
And our religious systems have become propositionally dubious.
Lex Fridman (11:03.340)
But there's no arguing with the architecture,
Jordan Peterson (11:05.340)
although modern architects like to,
Lex Fridman (11:07.420)
with their sterility and their giant middle fingers erected
Jordan Peterson (11:10.660)
everywhere.
Lex Fridman (11:12.300)
But beauty is a terrible pointer to God.
Lex Fridman (11:16.620)
And a secular person will say, well, I don't believe in God.
Lex Fridman (11:19.460)
It's like, have it your way.
Jordan Peterson (11:22.580)
You got it.
Lex Fridman (11:23.700)
You cannot move forward into the unforeseen horizon
Jordan Peterson (11:26.780)
of the future except on faith.
Lex Fridman (11:29.660)
And you might say, well, I have no faith.
Jordan Peterson (11:31.360)
It's like, well, good luck with the future then.
Lex Fridman (11:33.360)
Because what are you then, nihilistic and hopeless
Lex Fridman (11:36.220)
and anxiety ridden?
Lex Fridman (11:38.260)
And if not, well, something's guiding you forward.
Jordan Peterson (11:40.980)
It's faith in something or multiple things,
Lex Fridman (11:43.580)
which just makes you a polytheist,
Jordan Peterson (11:45.940)
which I wouldn't recommend.
Lex Fridman (11:48.100)
Well, let me ask you one short lived biological meat
Jordan Peterson (11:52.780)
bag to another.
Lex Fridman (11:54.780)
Who is God then?
Jordan Peterson (11:58.100)
Let's try to sneak up to this question
Lex Fridman (12:00.300)
if it's at all possible.
Lex Fridman (12:01.620)
Is it possible to even talk about this?
Lex Fridman (12:04.980)
Well, it better be.
Jordan Peterson (12:05.740)
Because otherwise, there's no communicating about it.
Lex Fridman (12:08.900)
It has to be something that can be brought down to Earth.
Jordan Peterson (12:12.300)
Well, we might be too dumb to bring it down.
Lex Fridman (12:14.700)
It's not just ignorant.
Jordan Peterson (12:16.020)
It's also sinful because there's not knowing.
Lex Fridman (12:20.540)
And then there's wanting to know or refusing to know.
Lex Fridman (12:24.580)
And so you might say, well, could you
Lex Fridman (12:26.980)
extract God from a description of the objective world?
Lex Fridman (12:30.900)
Is God just the ultimate unity of the natural reality?
Lex Fridman (12:36.940)
And I would say, well, in a sense,
Jordan Peterson (12:39.300)
there's some truth in that, but not exactly.
Lex Fridman (12:41.720)
Because God in the highest sense is the spirit
Jordan Peterson (12:45.060)
that you must emulate in order to thrive.
Lex Fridman (12:49.060)
How's that for a biological definition?
Jordan Peterson (12:51.460)
Spirit is a pattern, the spirit that you must
Lex Fridman (12:54.540)
emulate in order to thrive.
Lex Fridman (12:56.140)
So it's a kind of, in one sense, when we say the human spirit,
Lex Fridman (13:01.500)
it's that.
Jordan Peterson (13:02.620)
It's an animating principle.
Lex Fridman (13:04.380)
Yeah, it's a meta.
Jordan Peterson (13:05.520)
It's a pattern.
Lex Fridman (13:06.980)
And you might say, well, what's the pattern?
Jordan Peterson (13:08.940)
Well, I can tell you that to some degree.
Lex Fridman (13:11.340)
Imagine that like your grip by beauty,
Jordan Peterson (13:14.860)
you're gripped by admiration.
Lex Fridman (13:17.420)
And you can just notice this.
Jordan Peterson (13:19.100)
This isn't propositional.
Lex Fridman (13:20.300)
You have to notice it.
Jordan Peterson (13:21.580)
It's like, oh, turns out I admire that person.
Lex Fridman (13:26.940)
So what does that mean?
Jordan Peterson (13:28.260)
Well, it means I would like to be like him or her.
Lex Fridman (13:31.740)
That's what admiration means.
Jordan Peterson (13:32.940)
It means there's something about the way
Lex Fridman (13:35.180)
they are that compels imitation, another instinct,
Jordan Peterson (13:40.100)
or inspires respect or awe even.
Lex Fridman (13:44.780)
What is that that grips you?
Jordan Peterson (13:46.820)
Well, I don't know.
Lex Fridman (13:49.340)
Well, let's say, OK, fine.
Lex Fridman (13:51.180)
But it grips you.
Lex Fridman (13:52.020)
And you want to be like that.
Jordan Peterson (13:53.380)
Kids hero worship, for example.
Lex Fridman (13:55.220)
So do adults, for that matter, unless they
Jordan Peterson (13:56.980)
become entirely cynical.
Lex Fridman (13:58.140)
I worship quite a few heroes.
Jordan Peterson (14:00.380)
Well, there you go.
Lex Fridman (14:01.740)
Yes, well, there you go.
Lex Fridman (14:03.380)
And there's no, that worship, that celebration and proclivity
Lex Fridman (14:07.180)
to imitate is worship.
Jordan Peterson (14:08.460)
That's what worship means most fundamentally.
Lex Fridman (14:11.180)
Now, imagine you took the set of all admirable people
Lex Fridman (14:16.020)
and you extracted out AI learning.
Lex Fridman (14:18.940)
You extracted out the central features
Jordan Peterson (14:20.940)
of what constitutes admirable.
Lex Fridman (14:23.260)
And then you did that repeatedly until you purified it
Jordan Peterson (14:25.860)
to what was most admirable.
Lex Fridman (14:29.220)
That's as good as you're going to get in terms
Jordan Peterson (14:33.180)
of a representation of God.
Lex Fridman (14:35.660)
And you might say, well, I don't believe in that.
Lex Fridman (14:37.620)
It's like, well, what do you mean?
Lex Fridman (14:40.780)
It's not a set of propositional facts.
Jordan Peterson (14:43.780)
It's not a scientific theory about the structure
Lex Fridman (14:46.260)
of the objective world.
Lex Fridman (14:47.380)
And then I could say something about that, too,
Lex Fridman (14:49.060)
because I've been thinking about this a lot,
Jordan Peterson (14:50.900)
especially since talking to Richard Dawkins.
Lex Fridman (14:53.300)
It's like, OK, the postmodernist types,
Jordan Peterson (14:57.260)
going back way before Derrida and Foucault,
Lex Fridman (14:59.580)
maybe back to Nietzsche, who I admire greatly, by the way.
Jordan Peterson (15:04.260)
He says, God is dead.
Lex Fridman (15:06.500)
It's like, OK.
Lex Fridman (15:07.780)
But Nietzsche said, God is dead, and we have killed him,
Lex Fridman (15:10.140)
and we'll not find enough water to wash away all the blood.
Lex Fridman (15:12.940)
So that was Nietzsche.
Lex Fridman (15:14.180)
He's no fool.
Jordan Peterson (15:15.060)
He's got away with words.
Lex Fridman (15:16.100)
He certainly does.
Lex Fridman (15:17.740)
And so then you think, OK, well, we killed the transcendent.
Lex Fridman (15:22.260)
Well, what does that mean for science?
Jordan Peterson (15:24.700)
Well, it frees it up, because all that nonsense about a deity
Lex Fridman (15:28.260)
is just the idiot superstition that
Jordan Peterson (15:30.500)
stops the scientific process from moving forward.
Lex Fridman (15:35.500)
That's basically the new atheist claim, something like that.
Jordan Peterson (15:38.580)
It's like, wait a second.
Lex Fridman (15:40.900)
Do you believe in the transcendent
Lex Fridman (15:42.300)
if you're a scientist?
Lex Fridman (15:44.540)
And the answer is, well, not only do you believe in it,
Jordan Peterson (15:47.820)
you believe in it more than anything else.
Lex Fridman (15:49.580)
Because if you're a scientist, you
Jordan Peterson (15:51.900)
believe in what objects to your theory
Lex Fridman (15:56.180)
more than you believe in your theory.
Jordan Peterson (15:58.460)
Now, we've got to think that through very carefully.
Lex Fridman (16:00.500)
So your theory describes the world.
Lex Fridman (16:01.940)
And as far as you're concerned, your description of the world
Lex Fridman (16:05.380)
is the world.
Lex Fridman (16:07.220)
But because you're a scientist, you think, well,
Lex Fridman (16:09.660)
even though that's my description of the world
Lex Fridman (16:11.900)
and that's what I believe, there's
Lex Fridman (16:14.020)
something beyond what I believe.
Lex Fridman (16:17.100)
And that's the object.
Lex Fridman (16:18.060)
And so I'm going to throw my theory against the object
Lex Fridman (16:20.340)
and see where it'll break.
Lex Fridman (16:21.940)
And then I'm going to use the evidence of the break
Jordan Peterson (16:25.340)
as a source of new information to revitalize my theory.
Lex Fridman (16:28.900)
So as a scientist, you have to posit
Jordan Peterson (16:30.620)
the existence of the ontological transcendent
Lex Fridman (16:33.900)
before you can move forward at all.
Lex Fridman (16:36.180)
But more, you have to posit that contact
Lex Fridman (16:40.580)
with the ontological transcendent,
Jordan Peterson (16:43.060)
annoying though it is because it upsets your apple cart,
Lex Fridman (16:46.420)
is exactly what will, in fact, set you free.
Lex Fridman (16:49.740)
So then you accept the proposition
Lex Fridman (16:51.380)
that there is a transcendent reality
Lex Fridman (16:54.500)
and that contact with that transcendent reality
Lex Fridman (16:58.500)
is redemptive in the most fundamental sense.
Jordan Peterson (17:00.980)
Because if it wasn't, well, why would you
Lex Fridman (17:02.500)
bother making contact with it?
Lex Fridman (17:03.860)
Is it going to make everything worse or better?
Lex Fridman (17:06.300)
Why does the contact with the transcendent
Lex Fridman (17:10.100)
set you free as a scientist?
Lex Fridman (17:11.820)
Because you assume that, you assume,
Jordan Peterson (17:13.900)
I mean, freedom in the most fundamental sense.
Lex Fridman (17:15.940)
It's like, well, freedom from want,
Lex Fridman (17:17.940)
freedom from disease, freedom from ignorance, right?
Lex Fridman (17:21.060)
That it informs you.
Lex Fridman (17:22.460)
So it's the lie of science.
Lex Fridman (17:24.900)
It is definitely that.
Jordan Peterson (17:27.380)
Yeah, it's the direction, let's say,
Lex Fridman (17:30.140)
the directionality of science.
Jordan Peterson (17:31.460)
That's a narrative direction, not a scientific direction.
Lex Fridman (17:34.340)
And then the question is, what is the narrative?
Jordan Peterson (17:36.500)
Well, it posits a transcendent reality.
Lex Fridman (17:38.860)
It posits that the transcendent reality is corrective.
Jordan Peterson (17:41.700)
It posits that our knowledge structures
Lex Fridman (17:43.540)
should be regarded with humility.
Jordan Peterson (17:46.060)
It posits that you should bow down
Lex Fridman (17:48.260)
in the face of the transcendent evidence.
Lex Fridman (17:51.860)
And you have to take a vow.
Lex Fridman (17:53.300)
You know this as a scientist.
Jordan Peterson (17:54.540)
You have to take a vow to follow that path if you're
Lex Fridman (17:56.700)
going to be a real scientist.
Jordan Peterson (17:57.900)
Like, the truth, no matter what, and that
Lex Fridman (18:01.740)
means you posit the truth as a redemptive force.
Lex Fridman (18:05.140)
Well, what does redemptive mean?
Lex Fridman (18:06.380)
Well, why bother with science?
Jordan Peterson (18:07.700)
Well, so people don't starve.
Lex Fridman (18:09.140)
So people can move about more effectively.
Lex Fridman (18:11.220)
So life can be more abundant, right?
Lex Fridman (18:12.980)
So it's all ensconced within an underlying ethic.
Lex Fridman (18:16.700)
So the reason I was saying that while we were talking
Lex Fridman (18:19.740)
about belief in God, it's like, this
Lex Fridman (18:21.220)
is a very complicated topic, right?
Lex Fridman (18:23.180)
Do you believe in a transcendent reality?
Jordan Peterson (18:25.020)
See, OK, now let's say you buy the argument I just
Lex Fridman (18:28.860)
made on the natural front.
Jordan Peterson (18:30.020)
You say, yeah, yeah, that's just nature.
Lex Fridman (18:33.300)
That's not God.
Lex Fridman (18:35.660)
And then I'd say, well, what makes you think
Lex Fridman (18:37.380)
you know what nature is?
Jordan Peterson (18:39.700)
Like, see, the problem with that argument
Lex Fridman (18:41.940)
is that it already presumes a materialist,
Jordan Peterson (18:45.460)
a reductionist, materialist, objective view
Lex Fridman (18:48.180)
of what constitutes nature.
Lex Fridman (18:50.140)
But if you're a scientist, you're going to think,
Lex Fridman (18:52.540)
well, in the final analysis, I don't know what nature is.
Jordan Peterson (18:54.980)
I certainly don't know its origin or destination point.
Lex Fridman (18:58.140)
I don't know its teleology.
Jordan Peterson (19:00.100)
I'm really ignorant about nature.
Lex Fridman (19:02.620)
And so when I say it's nothing but nature,
Jordan Peterson (19:05.420)
I shouldn't mean it's nothing but what
Lex Fridman (19:07.700)
I understand nature to be.
Lex Fridman (19:10.460)
So I could say, will we have a fully reductionist account
Lex Fridman (19:13.300)
of cognitive processes?
Lex Fridman (19:16.060)
And the answer to that is yes.
Lex Fridman (19:17.380)
But by the time we do that, our understanding of matter
Jordan Peterson (19:20.700)
will have transformed so much that what
Lex Fridman (19:22.700)
we think of as reductionists now won't look anything like what
Jordan Peterson (19:25.820)
we think of reductionism now.
Lex Fridman (19:27.940)
Matter isn't dead dust.
Jordan Peterson (19:30.780)
I don't know what it is.
Lex Fridman (19:32.500)
I have no idea what it is.
Jordan Peterson (19:34.020)
Matter is what matters.
Lex Fridman (19:35.820)
There is a definition.
Jordan Peterson (19:37.180)
That's a very weird definition.
Lex Fridman (19:39.300)
But the notion that we have, you know,
Jordan Peterson (19:42.540)
that if you're a reductionist, a materialist reductionist,
Lex Fridman (19:44.980)
that you can reduce the complexity of what
Jordan Peterson (19:47.940)
is to your assumptions about the nature of matter,
Lex Fridman (19:51.780)
that's not a scientific proposition.
Jordan Peterson (19:53.260)
Your specific limited human assumptions of this century,
Lex Fridman (19:56.660)
of this week, that so in some sense,
Jordan Peterson (1:00:01.880)
That's for sure.
Lex Fridman (1:00:03.100)
And resentment, it is possible to imagine you
Jordan Peterson (1:00:10.080)
as the person who has a resentment
Lex Fridman (1:00:13.160)
towards a particular worldview that you really worry about.
Jordan Peterson (1:00:19.040)
Yeah, well, I talked to a good friend of mine last week
Lex Fridman (1:00:22.280)
about that publicly, we'll release it.
Lex Fridman (1:00:25.080)
So I said, well, do I have a particular animus
Lex Fridman (1:00:27.720)
against the left, let's say?
Jordan Peterson (1:00:30.400)
It's like, well, probably.
Lex Fridman (1:00:32.440)
Okay, why?
Jordan Peterson (1:00:33.440)
Well, first of all, I'm a university professor.
Lex Fridman (1:00:38.520)
It's not like the universities are threatened by the right.
Jordan Peterson (1:00:41.900)
They're threatened by the left, 100%.
Lex Fridman (1:00:45.160)
And they're not just threatened a little bit,
Jordan Peterson (1:00:47.000)
they're threatened a lot.
Lex Fridman (1:00:48.660)
And that threat made it impossible
Jordan Peterson (1:00:50.400)
for me to continue in my profession the way I was.
Lex Fridman (1:00:53.080)
And it cost me my clinical practice too.
Lex Fridman (1:00:55.560)
And that's not over yet because I have 10 lawsuits
Lex Fridman (1:00:58.760)
against me out right now from the College of Psychologists
Jordan Peterson (1:01:02.220)
because they've allowed anyone to complain about me
Lex Fridman (1:01:05.180)
anywhere in the world for any reason,
Lex Fridman (1:01:07.760)
and have the choice to follow that up with an investigation,
Lex Fridman (1:01:11.080)
which is a punishment in and of itself, and are doing so.
Lex Fridman (1:01:15.280)
And then I've been tortured nearly to death multiple times
Lex Fridman (1:01:19.380)
by bad actors on the left.
Jordan Peterson (1:01:21.500)
Now I've had my fair share of radical right wingers
Lex Fridman (1:01:25.360)
being unhappy with what I've said,
Lex Fridman (1:01:27.440)
but personally, that's been the left the whole time.
Lex Fridman (1:01:32.040)
Not only me, but my family, put my family at risk
Jordan Peterson (1:01:35.660)
in a big way and constantly, like not once or twice,
Lex Fridman (1:01:39.460)
because many people get canceled once or twice.
Lex Fridman (1:01:43.160)
But I've been canceled like 40 times.
Lex Fridman (1:01:46.640)
And I know like 200 people now who've been canceled.
Lex Fridman (1:01:49.680)
And I can tell you without doubt,
Lex Fridman (1:01:53.160)
that it is one of the worst experiences of their life.
Lex Fridman (1:01:56.140)
And that's if it only happens once.
Lex Fridman (1:01:58.920)
And so, and then I also know that the communists killed
Jordan Peterson (1:02:04.600)
100 million people in the 20th century,
Lex Fridman (1:02:07.080)
that the intellectuals excused them for it nonstop
Lex Fridman (1:02:10.820)
and still haven't quit, that almost no one knows about it,
Lex Fridman (1:02:14.560)
and that the specter of resentful Marxism
Jordan Peterson (1:02:17.240)
is back in full force.
Lex Fridman (1:02:19.000)
And so do I have a bit of an animus against that?
Jordan Peterson (1:02:22.120)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (1:02:22.960)
Does it go too far?
Jordan Peterson (1:02:26.400)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (1:02:27.400)
I'm trying to figure that out.
Jordan Peterson (1:02:28.780)
The story you just told, it seems nearly impossible
Lex Fridman (1:02:33.580)
for you, an intellectual powerhouse,
Jordan Peterson (1:02:35.880)
not to have a tremendous amount of resentment.
Lex Fridman (1:02:38.480)
Well.
Lex Fridman (1:02:39.320)
And this is the, so let me challenge you.
Lex Fridman (1:02:41.200)
Yeah, go right ahead, man.
Jordan Peterson (1:02:42.040)
Let me challenge you.
Lex Fridman (1:02:43.640)
Can you steal, man, the case that the prime minister
Jordan Peterson (1:02:50.320)
of this country, Trudeau, wants the best for this country
Lex Fridman (1:02:55.520)
and actually might do good things for this country
Lex Fridman (1:02:58.840)
as an intellectual challenge?
Lex Fridman (1:03:00.440)
Sure.
Jordan Peterson (1:03:02.200)
He seems to get along well with his wife.
Lex Fridman (1:03:04.400)
He has some kids.
Jordan Peterson (1:03:07.040)
There's no sexual scandals.
Lex Fridman (1:03:08.680)
And he's in a position where that could easily be the case.
Jordan Peterson (1:03:11.760)
He seems to have done some good things
Lex Fridman (1:03:13.400)
on the oceanic management front.
Jordan Peterson (1:03:15.720)
He's put a fair bit of Canada's oceans
Lex Fridman (1:03:18.040)
into marine protected areas,
Lex Fridman (1:03:19.440)
and that might be his most fundamental legacy, if it's real.
Lex Fridman (1:03:23.280)
I've been trying to get information
Jordan Peterson (1:03:24.620)
about the actual reality of the protection,
Lex Fridman (1:03:27.240)
and I haven't been able to do that.
Lex Fridman (1:03:29.080)
But that's a good thing.
Lex Fridman (1:03:30.200)
So sorry, the family thing is, there's some aspect of.
Jordan Peterson (1:03:32.600)
It speaks to his character.
Lex Fridman (1:03:33.840)
This is a character.
Jordan Peterson (1:03:34.680)
There is some aspect to him that makes him a good man
Lex Fridman (1:03:38.240)
in that sense.
Jordan Peterson (1:03:39.080)
There's the evidence there.
Lex Fridman (1:03:41.160)
He's not a Jeffrey Epstein profligate on the sexual front,
Lex Fridman (1:03:44.540)
so that's something.
Lex Fridman (1:03:45.400)
And his wife, they seem to have a real marriage,
Lex Fridman (1:03:48.920)
and he has kids, so good for him.
Lex Fridman (1:03:51.900)
That's a good start, by the way, for a leader.
Jordan Peterson (1:03:54.160)
Yeah, right.
Lex Fridman (1:03:55.000)
To be a good man.
Jordan Peterson (1:03:55.840)
Well, then I also thought, okay,
Lex Fridman (1:03:57.400)
well, after the Liberals had brought in
Jordan Peterson (1:04:00.040)
a Harvard intellectual who was a Canadian
Lex Fridman (1:04:02.760)
to be their last leader, he didn't work out,
Lex Fridman (1:04:06.120)
and then they're flailing about for a leader,
Lex Fridman (1:04:08.340)
and the Liberals in Canada are pretty good
Jordan Peterson (1:04:10.040)
at maintaining power and leadership,
Lex Fridman (1:04:14.880)
and have been the dominant governing party in Canada
Jordan Peterson (1:04:17.120)
for a long time.
Lex Fridman (1:04:18.600)
And so they went to Justin and said,
Jordan Peterson (1:04:21.960)
well, you know, it's you or a Conservative,
Lex Fridman (1:04:24.680)
and you can imagine that's not a positive specter
Jordan Peterson (1:04:28.760)
for someone who's on the left, or even a Liberal,
Lex Fridman (1:04:32.120)
especially, and Trudeau's quite a bit on the left.
Lex Fridman (1:04:35.040)
And they said, we need you to run.
Lex Fridman (1:04:37.360)
And then I thought, okay, well,
Jordan Peterson (1:04:39.760)
the answer to that should have been no,
Lex Fridman (1:04:41.720)
because Trudeau, Justin, has no training for this,
Jordan Peterson (1:04:45.800)
no experience.
Lex Fridman (1:04:46.640)
He's not, he's a part time drama teacher, fundamentally.
Jordan Peterson (1:04:50.200)
He hadn't run a business.
Lex Fridman (1:04:51.320)
He just didn't know enough to be Prime Minister.
Lex Fridman (1:04:54.180)
But then I'm trying to put myself in his position, eh?
Lex Fridman (1:04:56.540)
So it's like, okay, I don't know enough, but I'm young,
Lex Fridman (1:04:59.880)
and we don't want the Conservatives,
Lex Fridman (1:05:01.840)
and they had had a run, a 10 year run,
Lex Fridman (1:05:03.520)
so maybe it was time for a new government.
Lex Fridman (1:05:05.320)
I could, maybe I could grow into this man.
Jordan Peterson (1:05:08.560)
Maybe I could surround myself with good people,
Lex Fridman (1:05:10.940)
and I could learn humbly, and I could become
Jordan Peterson (1:05:16.200)
the person I'm now pretending to be,
Lex Fridman (1:05:17.960)
which we all have to do as we move forward, right?
Lex Fridman (1:05:20.680)
And so then I thought, okay,
Lex Fridman (1:05:23.460)
I think you made a mistake there,
Jordan Peterson (1:05:24.920)
because you ran only on your father's name,
Lex Fridman (1:05:28.120)
and you didn't have the background,
Lex Fridman (1:05:29.660)
but let's give the devil his due,
Lex Fridman (1:05:31.160)
and say that's no problem.
Lex Fridman (1:05:33.280)
Okay, so now what do you do?
Lex Fridman (1:05:35.000)
Well, you get elected, and your first act is
Jordan Peterson (1:05:38.800)
to make the cabinet 50% women,
Lex Fridman (1:05:42.520)
despite the fact that only 25% of the elected members
Jordan Peterson (1:05:46.120)
are female.
Lex Fridman (1:05:47.120)
It's like, okay, you just have your talent pool.
Jordan Peterson (1:05:50.580)
That was a really bad move for your first move.
Lex Fridman (1:05:53.040)
Can I ask you about that?
Lex Fridman (1:05:55.080)
Do you think, where does that move come from?
Lex Fridman (1:05:58.840)
Deep somewhere in the heart?
Jordan Peterson (1:06:00.520)
Or is it trying to listen to the social forces
Lex Fridman (1:06:05.720)
of the moment, and try to ride those ways towards
Lex Fridman (1:06:09.960)
maybe greater and greater popularity?
Lex Fridman (1:06:12.220)
By after thinking it through.
Jordan Peterson (1:06:14.000)
It's like, no, you just have your talent pool
Lex Fridman (1:06:16.860)
for cabinet positions.
Jordan Peterson (1:06:18.140)
That's what you did.
Lex Fridman (1:06:19.160)
There's enough cabinet positions.
Jordan Peterson (1:06:22.200)
You know, you could argue that each of them met threshold.
Lex Fridman (1:06:24.320)
It's like, there's a big difference
Jordan Peterson (1:06:26.080)
between threshold and excellent.
Lex Fridman (1:06:27.960)
So you don't think that came from a place of compassion?
Jordan Peterson (1:06:31.040)
I don't care if it did.
Lex Fridman (1:06:31.880)
I don't regard compassion as a virtue.
Jordan Peterson (1:06:34.160)
Compassion is a reflex, not a virtue.
Lex Fridman (1:06:36.400)
You don't think?
Jordan Peterson (1:06:37.240)
Judicious compassion is a virtue.
Lex Fridman (1:06:39.280)
Wait, wait a minute, wait a minute.
Jordan Peterson (1:06:40.800)
Compassion can come deep from the human heart
Lex Fridman (1:06:44.640)
and the human mind, I think.
Lex Fridman (1:06:46.160)
Are we talking about the same kind of compassion?
Lex Fridman (1:06:48.420)
Yes.
Jordan Peterson (1:06:49.260)
Trying to understand the suffering in the world.
Lex Fridman (1:06:50.080)
Treating adults like infants is not virtuous.
Jordan Peterson (1:06:53.000)
I see.
Lex Fridman (1:06:53.840)
Well, compassion isn't treating adults like infants.
Jordan Peterson (1:06:58.080)
I mean, those are just terms.
Lex Fridman (1:06:59.560)
Are you sure?
Jordan Peterson (1:07:01.120)
Whatever the term is, maybe love is maybe the better word.
Lex Fridman (1:07:03.640)
Edible compassion is.
Jordan Peterson (1:07:05.540)
I mean, I suppose I'm speaking to love.
Lex Fridman (1:07:08.540)
You don't think those ideas came from concern?
Jordan Peterson (1:07:11.840)
Love is a blend of compassion and encouragement and truth.
Lex Fridman (1:07:18.960)
Love is complicated, man.
Jordan Peterson (1:07:20.520)
Yeah, it has a lot of good things in it, yes.
Lex Fridman (1:07:22.160)
If I love you, is it compassion
Lex Fridman (1:07:24.000)
or encouragement you want from me?
Lex Fridman (1:07:26.640)
Yeah, the dance.
Jordan Peterson (1:07:27.480)
Love is definitely a dance of two humans, ultimately,
Lex Fridman (1:07:30.640)
that leads to the growth of both, yes.
Jordan Peterson (1:07:32.160)
Well, that's the thing.
Lex Fridman (1:07:33.000)
The growth element is crucial.
Jordan Peterson (1:07:35.720)
Because the growth element, to foster the growth element,
Lex Fridman (1:07:38.560)
that requires judgment.
Jordan Peterson (1:07:41.220)
Compassion and judgment, well, even,
Lex Fridman (1:07:43.840)
and have been conceptualized this way forever,
Jordan Peterson (1:07:45.880)
two hands of God, mercy and justice.
Lex Fridman (1:07:48.740)
They have to operate in tandem, right?
Lex Fridman (1:07:50.880)
And mercy is flawed as you are, you're acceptable.
Lex Fridman (1:07:58.040)
It's like, well, do you want that?
Lex Fridman (1:07:59.480)
Do you want your flaws to be acceptable?
Lex Fridman (1:08:02.060)
And the answer to that is no.
Jordan Peterson (1:08:03.320)
It's like, well, that's where the judgment comes in.
Lex Fridman (1:08:05.240)
It's like, but you could be better.
Jordan Peterson (1:08:07.440)
You could be more than you are.
Lex Fridman (1:08:09.280)
And that's the maternal and the paternal
Jordan Peterson (1:08:11.000)
in some fundamental sense.
Lex Fridman (1:08:12.880)
And there has to be a active exchange of information
Jordan Peterson (1:08:18.640)
between those two poles.
Lex Fridman (1:08:20.280)
So even if Trudeau was motivated by compassion,
Lex Fridman (1:08:23.280)
and it's like, yeah, just how loving are you, first of all?
Lex Fridman (1:08:27.620)
No, it was a really bad decision.
Lex Fridman (1:08:29.080)
And then he's expressed contempt for monetary policy.
Lex Fridman (1:08:32.920)
I'm not interested in monetary policy.
Jordan Peterson (1:08:34.560)
It's like, okay, but you're a prime minister.
Lex Fridman (1:08:40.320)
And he's expressed admiration
Jordan Peterson (1:08:41.800)
for the Chinese Communist Party,
Lex Fridman (1:08:43.920)
because they can be very efficient
Jordan Peterson (1:08:46.200)
in their pursuit of environmental goals.
Lex Fridman (1:08:48.160)
It's like, oh yeah, efficiency, eh?
Jordan Peterson (1:08:52.520)
The efficiency of the tyranny in the service of your terror.
Lex Fridman (1:08:57.040)
And so, and I've watched him repeatedly
Lex Fridman (1:08:59.240)
and I've listened to him a lot.
Lex Fridman (1:09:00.700)
And I've tried to do that clinically
Lex Fridman (1:09:03.040)
and with some degree of dispassion.
Lex Fridman (1:09:05.760)
And that's hard too, because his father, Pierre,
Jordan Peterson (1:09:09.800)
devastated the West in 1982 with the national energy policy.
Lex Fridman (1:09:15.020)
And Trudeau is doing exactly the same thing again.
Lex Fridman (1:09:18.140)
And so as a westerner as well,
Lex Fridman (1:09:20.240)
I have an inbuilt animus and one that's well deserved,
Jordan Peterson (1:09:24.680)
because central Canada,
Lex Fridman (1:09:26.600)
especially the glittery literati elite types
Jordan Peterson (1:09:30.320)
in the Ottawa, Montreal, Toronto triangle
Lex Fridman (1:09:34.480)
have exploited the West and expressed contempt for the West
Jordan Peterson (1:09:40.480)
far too much for far too long.
Lex Fridman (1:09:42.960)
And that's accelerating at the moment, for example,
Jordan Peterson (1:09:45.360)
with Trudeau's recent attack on the Canadian farmers.
Lex Fridman (1:09:48.840)
He's an enemy of the oil and gas industry.
Jordan Peterson (1:09:52.520)
It's an utter and absolute bloody catastrophe.
Lex Fridman (1:09:54.840)
And look what's happened in Europe,
Jordan Peterson (1:09:56.720)
at least in partial consequence.
Lex Fridman (1:09:58.720)
And he's no friend to the farmers.
Lex Fridman (1:10:01.000)
So I've tried to steel man him.
Lex Fridman (1:10:04.160)
I try to put myself in the position of the people
Jordan Peterson (1:10:06.620)
that I'm criticizing.
Lex Fridman (1:10:08.340)
I think he's a narcissist.
Lex Fridman (1:10:11.480)
Do you think there's a degree to which power changed him?
Lex Fridman (1:10:14.320)
If you're not suited for the position,
Jordan Peterson (1:10:17.380)
if you're not the man for the position,
Lex Fridman (1:10:18.780)
you can be absolutely 100% sure
Jordan Peterson (1:10:21.720)
that the power will corrupt you.
Lex Fridman (1:10:23.060)
How could it not?
Jordan Peterson (1:10:24.940)
I mean, at the least, if you don't have the chops
Lex Fridman (1:10:27.740)
for the job, you have to devalue the job
Jordan Peterson (1:10:30.780)
to the point where you can feel comfortable inhabiting it.
Lex Fridman (1:10:35.440)
So yes, I think that it's corrupted him.
Lex Fridman (1:10:37.900)
And I mean, look at him doubling down.
Lex Fridman (1:10:39.980)
We wear masks in flights into Canada.
Jordan Peterson (1:10:43.380)
We have to fill out an arrive can bureaucratic form
Lex Fridman (1:10:46.300)
on our phones because a passport isn't good enough.
Jordan Peterson (1:10:49.180)
We can't get a passport.
Lex Fridman (1:10:51.760)
What if you're 85 and you don't know
Lex Fridman (1:10:53.380)
how to use a smartphone?
Lex Fridman (1:10:54.960)
Oh, well, too bad for you.
Jordan Peterson (1:10:58.100)
It's like, yes, it's corrupted him.
Lex Fridman (1:11:01.140)
Would you talk to him?
Jordan Peterson (1:11:04.220)
If you were to sit down and talk with him
Lex Fridman (1:11:05.980)
and he wanted to talk,
Jordan Peterson (1:11:07.620)
would you and what kind of things would you talk about,
Lex Fridman (1:11:13.460)
perhaps on your podcast?
Jordan Peterson (1:11:14.820)
I don't think I've ever said no to talking to anyone.
Lex Fridman (1:11:18.740)
So, which is, you know.
Jordan Peterson (1:11:20.020)
Would you, would that be a first
Lex Fridman (1:11:22.060)
or would you make that conversation?
Lex Fridman (1:11:24.360)
Do you believe in the power of those kinds of contexts?
Lex Fridman (1:11:27.300)
No, if he was willing to talk to me,
Jordan Peterson (1:11:30.040)
I'd talk because I'd like to ask him.
Lex Fridman (1:11:31.720)
I have lots of things I'd like to ask him about.
Jordan Peterson (1:11:33.480)
I mean, I've had political types in Canada
Lex Fridman (1:11:35.380)
on my podcast and tried to ask them questions.
Jordan Peterson (1:11:39.060)
So, I'd like to know.
Lex Fridman (1:11:41.820)
You know, maybe I've got a big part of him wrong.
Lex Fridman (1:11:44.780)
And I probably do, but my observation has been
Lex Fridman (1:11:49.420)
that every chance he had to retreat
Jordan Peterson (1:11:51.660)
from his pharaonic position, let's say, he doubled down.
Lex Fridman (1:11:55.460)
And these, our parliament is not running for the next year.
Jordan Peterson (1:12:01.860)
It's still zoom in.
Lex Fridman (1:12:03.660)
It's still COVID lockdown parliament.
Jordan Peterson (1:12:06.180)
For the next year, it's already been fatally compromised,
Lex Fridman (1:12:11.860)
perhaps, by the lockdowns for the last couple of years.
Lex Fridman (1:12:16.900)
And this is parliament we're talking about.
Lex Fridman (1:12:19.060)
Yeah, there's a kind of paralysis, fear driven paralysis
Jordan Peterson (1:12:24.700)
that also, in part, some of the most brilliant people
Lex Fridman (1:12:27.820)
I know are lost in this paralysis.
Jordan Peterson (1:12:30.780)
I don't think people have signed a word to it,
Lex Fridman (1:12:32.380)
but it's almost like a fear of this unknown thing
Jordan Peterson (1:12:35.500)
that lurks in the shadows.
Lex Fridman (1:12:36.940)
And that, unfortunately, that fear is leveraged by people
Jordan Peterson (1:12:44.100)
that, you know, who are in academic circles,
Lex Fridman (1:12:47.140)
who are in faculty or students,
Lex Fridman (1:12:48.460)
and so on, or more in administration.
Lex Fridman (1:12:50.380)
And they start to use that fear,
Jordan Peterson (1:12:52.540)
which makes me quite uncomfortable.
Lex Fridman (1:12:55.300)
It does lend people in the positions of power
Jordan Peterson (1:13:00.060)
who are not good at handling that power
Lex Fridman (1:13:02.100)
to become slowly, day by day, a little bit more corrupt.
Jordan Peterson (1:13:07.340)
I was really trying to figure out, you know,
Lex Fridman (1:13:09.060)
the last two weeks, thinking this through.
Lex Fridman (1:13:10.660)
It's like, how do you know?
Lex Fridman (1:13:13.340)
Let's say someone asked me a question
Jordan Peterson (1:13:15.020)
in the YouTube comments, said,
Lex Fridman (1:13:16.740)
why can I trust your advice on the environmental front?
Lex Fridman (1:13:22.340)
And I thought, that's a really good question.
Lex Fridman (1:13:25.580)
Okay, let's see if we can figure out the principles
Jordan Peterson (1:13:29.260)
by which the advice would be trustworthy.
Lex Fridman (1:13:31.220)
Okay, how do you know it's not trustworthy?
Jordan Peterson (1:13:34.500)
Well, one potential response to that would be
Lex Fridman (1:13:40.460)
the claims are not in accordance with the facts,
Jordan Peterson (1:13:43.100)
but, you know, facts are tricky things
Lex Fridman (1:13:44.820)
and it depends on where you look for them.
Lex Fridman (1:13:46.380)
So that's a tough one to get right because,
Lex Fridman (1:13:49.660)
for example, Lomberg's fundamental critics
Jordan Peterson (1:13:51.900)
argue about his facts, not just his interpretation of them.
Lex Fridman (1:13:56.100)
So that can't be an unerring guide.
Lex Fridman (1:13:57.980)
And so I thought, well, the facts exactly doesn't work
Lex Fridman (1:14:01.740)
because when it's about everything, there's too many facts.
Lex Fridman (1:14:05.260)
So then how do you determine if someone's a trustworthy guide
Lex Fridman (1:14:08.820)
in the face of the apocalyptic unknown?
Jordan Peterson (1:14:11.420)
Because that's really the question.
Lex Fridman (1:14:13.380)
And the answer is they're not terrified tyrants.
Jordan Peterson (1:14:18.460)
I think that's the answer.
Lex Fridman (1:14:20.540)
Now, maybe that's wrong.
Jordan Peterson (1:14:21.500)
If someone has a better answer.
Lex Fridman (1:14:22.940)
How do you know if they're a terrified tyrant?
Jordan Peterson (1:14:24.900)
Because they are willing to use compulsion on other people.
Lex Fridman (1:14:27.900)
When they could use goodwill.
Jordan Peterson (1:14:29.900)
Like the farmers in Canada objected.
Lex Fridman (1:14:32.780)
They said, look, we have every economic reason
Jordan Peterson (1:14:36.700)
to use as little fertilizer as we can.
Lex Fridman (1:14:39.180)
Cause it's expensive.
Jordan Peterson (1:14:40.780)
We have satellite maps of where we put the fertilizer.
Lex Fridman (1:14:44.900)
We have cut our fertilizer use so substantially
Jordan Peterson (1:14:48.020)
in the last 40 years, you can't believe it.
Lex Fridman (1:14:50.100)
And we grow way more food.
Jordan Peterson (1:14:52.260)
We're already breaking ourselves in half.
Lex Fridman (1:14:54.820)
And if you know farmers,
Jordan Peterson (1:14:56.180)
especially the ones who still survive,
Lex Fridman (1:14:57.900)
you think those people don't know what they're doing.
Jordan Peterson (1:15:00.540)
It's like, yeah, they're pretty damn sophisticated man.
Lex Fridman (1:15:04.500)
Like way more sophisticated than our prime minister.
Lex Fridman (1:15:08.780)
And now you tell them, no, it's a 30% reduction.
Lex Fridman (1:15:11.860)
And we don't care how much food you're growing.
Lex Fridman (1:15:13.700)
So it's not a reduction that's dependent
Lex Fridman (1:15:18.220)
on amount of food produced per unit of fertilizer used,
Jordan Peterson (1:15:21.740)
which would be at least you could imagine it.
Lex Fridman (1:15:24.500)
So, okay, so you're producing this much food
Lex Fridman (1:15:27.180)
and you use this much fertilizer.
Lex Fridman (1:15:28.740)
So you're hyper efficient.
Jordan Peterson (1:15:30.660)
Maybe we take the 10% of farmers
Lex Fridman (1:15:32.340)
who are the least efficient in that metric.
Lex Fridman (1:15:35.060)
And we say to them,
Lex Fridman (1:15:36.140)
you have to get as efficient as the average farmer.
Lex Fridman (1:15:39.620)
And then they say, well, look, you know,
Lex Fridman (1:15:41.220)
our situation's different.
Jordan Peterson (1:15:42.780)
We're in a more Northern climb, the soil's weaker.
Lex Fridman (1:15:46.100)
You know, you obviously have to bargain with that,
Lex Fridman (1:15:48.100)
but at least you reward them for their productivity.
Lex Fridman (1:15:52.100)
Well, it's like, well, Holland isn't gonna have beef.
Lex Fridman (1:15:55.220)
Well, where are they gonna get it?
Lex Fridman (1:15:56.940)
Well, you don't need it.
Jordan Peterson (1:15:58.140)
It's like, oh, I see.
Lex Fridman (1:15:58.980)
You get to tell me what I can eat now, do you?
Lex Fridman (1:16:01.340)
Really?
Lex Fridman (1:16:02.340)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:16:03.180)
And Holland is gonna import food from where
Lex Fridman (1:16:07.660)
that's more efficient on the fertilizer front.
Jordan Peterson (1:16:11.340)
There's no one more efficient than Holland.
Lex Fridman (1:16:13.460)
And same with Canada.
Lex Fridman (1:16:15.260)
And like, isn't this gonna make food prices more expensive?
Lex Fridman (1:16:19.220)
And doesn't that mean that hungry people die?
Jordan Peterson (1:16:23.020)
Cause that is what it means.
Lex Fridman (1:16:24.700)
And so.
Jordan Peterson (1:16:25.540)
Ultimately, poor people pay the price
Lex Fridman (1:16:27.700)
of these kinds of policies.
Jordan Peterson (1:16:29.700)
Not known, not ultimately.
Lex Fridman (1:16:33.700)
Now.
Jordan Peterson (1:16:34.540)
Today.
Lex Fridman (1:16:35.380)
Today.
Jordan Peterson (1:16:36.220)
That's a crucial distinction because they say,
Lex Fridman (1:16:37.660)
well, ultimately the poor will benefit.
Jordan Peterson (1:16:40.980)
Yeah, except the dead ones.
Lex Fridman (1:16:42.300)
Yes.
Jordan Peterson (1:16:43.140)
Today.
Lex Fridman (1:16:43.980)
Today, right.
Jordan Peterson (1:16:45.340)
It seems like the story of war to,
Lex Fridman (1:16:48.380)
is a time when the poor people suffer
Jordan Peterson (1:16:52.620)
from the decision made by the powerful, the rich,
Lex Fridman (1:16:56.540)
the political elite.
Jordan Peterson (1:16:59.700)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:17:00.980)
Let me ask you about the war in Ukraine.
Jordan Peterson (1:17:03.340)
Oh yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:17:04.180)
I got into plenty of trouble about that too.
Jordan Peterson (1:17:07.220)
You're, you're just a man in a suit
Lex Fridman (1:17:12.220)
talking on microphones and writing brilliant articles.
Jordan Peterson (1:17:16.700)
There's also people dying, fighting.
Lex Fridman (1:17:20.740)
It's their land, it's their country, it's their history.
Jordan Peterson (1:17:23.700)
This is true for both Russia and Ukraine.
Lex Fridman (1:17:26.420)
It's people trying to ask, they have many dragons
Lex Fridman (1:17:30.180)
and they're asking themselves a question,
Lex Fridman (1:17:32.500)
who are we?
Lex Fridman (1:17:33.660)
What is this?
Lex Fridman (1:17:35.100)
What is the future of this nation?
Jordan Peterson (1:17:37.340)
We thought we are a great nation.
Lex Fridman (1:17:41.180)
And I think both countries say this.
Lex Fridman (1:17:44.180)
And they say, well, how do we become the great nation
Lex Fridman (1:17:48.940)
we thought we are?
Jordan Peterson (1:17:50.060)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:17:50.900)
And so what, first of all, you got in trouble.
Lex Fridman (1:17:55.140)
What's the dynamics of the trouble?
Lex Fridman (1:17:58.540)
And is there something you regret saying?
Jordan Peterson (1:18:01.740)
No, no, I thought about it a lot.
Lex Fridman (1:18:03.660)
I laid out four reasons for the war.
Lex Fridman (1:18:06.140)
And then I was criticized in the Atlantic
Lex Fridman (1:18:08.820)
for the argument was reduced to one reason,
Jordan Peterson (1:18:12.020)
which was a caricature of the reason.
Lex Fridman (1:18:15.220)
I gave a variety of reasons why the war happened.
Jordan Peterson (1:18:18.220)
Mismanagement on the part of the West in relationship
Lex Fridman (1:18:21.660)
to Russia and foreign policy over the last,
Jordan Peterson (1:18:24.420)
since the wall fell.
Lex Fridman (1:18:26.580)
It's understandable because it's extremely complex.
Jordan Peterson (1:18:30.180)
Hyper reliance on Russia as a cardinal source of energy
Lex Fridman (1:18:34.500)
provision for Europe in the wake of idiot environmental
Jordan Peterson (1:18:37.940)
globalist utopianism.
Lex Fridman (1:18:41.740)
The expansionist tendencies of Russia
Jordan Peterson (1:18:46.900)
that are analogous in some sense to the Soviet Union empire
Lex Fridman (1:18:50.300)
building.
Lex Fridman (1:18:51.180)
And then the last one, which is the one I got in trouble for,
Lex Fridman (1:18:53.940)
which is Putin's belief or willingness
Jordan Peterson (1:18:58.540)
to manipulate his people into believing
Lex Fridman (1:19:01.180)
that Russia is a salvific force in the face
Jordan Peterson (1:19:04.500)
of idiot Western wokeism.
Lex Fridman (1:19:06.820)
And that's the one I got in trouble for.
Jordan Peterson (1:19:08.420)
It's like, while you're justifying Putin,
Lex Fridman (1:19:10.180)
it's like, it's not only the Russians
Jordan Peterson (1:19:14.860)
that think the West has lost its mind.
Lex Fridman (1:19:17.260)
The Eastern Europeans think so too.
Lex Fridman (1:19:19.340)
And do I know that?
Lex Fridman (1:19:20.260)
It's like, well, I went to 15 Eastern European countries
Jordan Peterson (1:19:24.700)
this spring.
Lex Fridman (1:19:26.820)
And I talked to 300 political and cultural leaders.
Lex Fridman (1:19:29.900)
And you might say, well, they were all conservatives.
Lex Fridman (1:19:32.100)
It's like, actually, no, they weren't.
Jordan Peterson (1:19:35.460)
Most of them were conservatives.
Lex Fridman (1:19:37.220)
Because it turns out that they're
Jordan Peterson (1:19:38.140)
more willing to talk to me.
Lex Fridman (1:19:39.220)
But a good chunk of them were liberals
Jordan Peterson (1:19:42.300)
by any stretch of the imagination.
Lex Fridman (1:19:46.140)
And a fair number of them were canceled progressives.
Jordan Peterson (1:19:49.860)
Well, because you're very concerned
Lex Fridman (1:19:51.940)
about the culture wars that perhaps
Jordan Peterson (1:19:55.980)
are a signal of a possible bad future for this country
Lex Fridman (1:20:02.500)
and for this part of the world, that reason stands out.
Lex Fridman (1:20:06.340)
And do you, sort of looking back at four reasons,
Lex Fridman (1:20:13.380)
think it deserves to have a place in one of the four?
Jordan Peterson (1:20:16.300)
Oh, absolutely.
Lex Fridman (1:20:17.740)
Because it is, you know.
Jordan Peterson (1:20:20.460)
Well, the four was bifurcated.
Lex Fridman (1:20:22.180)
Because I said, look, Putin might believe this.
Lex Fridman (1:20:24.300)
And I actually think he does.
Lex Fridman (1:20:25.780)
Because I read a bunch of Putin speeches.
Lex Fridman (1:20:27.500)
And I have been reading them for 15 years.
Lex Fridman (1:20:29.820)
And my sense of people generally,
Lex Fridman (1:20:31.460)
and this was true of Hitler, it's like,
Lex Fridman (1:20:33.660)
what did Hitler believe?
Lex Fridman (1:20:35.620)
Well, did you read what he wrote?
Lex Fridman (1:20:37.900)
He just did what he said he was going to do.
Lex Fridman (1:20:40.020)
And you might think, well, some people are so tricky,
Lex Fridman (1:20:42.380)
they have a whole body of elaborated speech
Jordan Peterson (1:20:47.140)
that's completely separate from their personality.
Lex Fridman (1:20:49.940)
And their personality is pursuing a different agenda.
Lex Fridman (1:20:52.860)
And this whole body of speech is nothing but affront.
Lex Fridman (1:20:57.180)
It's like, good luck finding someone that sophisticated.
Jordan Peterson (1:21:00.060)
First of all, if you say things long enough,
Lex Fridman (1:21:01.940)
you're going to believe them.
Jordan Peterson (1:21:02.900)
That's a really interesting and fascinating and important
Lex Fridman (1:21:05.260)
point.
Jordan Peterson (1:21:05.900)
Even if you start out as a lie, as a propaganda,
Lex Fridman (1:21:09.580)
I think Hitler is an example of somebody
Jordan Peterson (1:21:12.620)
that I think really quickly you start
Lex Fridman (1:21:14.380)
to believe the propaganda.
Jordan Peterson (1:21:16.100)
Well, you've thought a lot about AI systems.
Lex Fridman (1:21:19.260)
It's like, don't you become what you practice?
Lex Fridman (1:21:22.740)
And the answer to that is, well, absolutely.
Lex Fridman (1:21:24.860)
We even know the neurology.
Jordan Peterson (1:21:26.380)
It's like when you first formulate a concept,
Lex Fridman (1:21:28.420)
huge swaths of your cortex are lit up, so to speak.
Lex Fridman (1:21:32.100)
But as you practice that, first of all,
Lex Fridman (1:21:34.820)
the right hemisphere stops participating.
Lex Fridman (1:21:36.740)
And then the left participates less and less
Lex Fridman (1:21:40.660)
until you build specialized machinery for exactly
Jordan Peterson (1:21:43.820)
that conceptual frame.
Lex Fridman (1:21:45.780)
And then you start to see it, not just think it.
Lex Fridman (1:21:49.060)
And so if you're telling the same lies over and over,
Lex Fridman (1:21:52.300)
who do you think you're fooling?
Jordan Peterson (1:21:53.620)
Think, well, I can withstand my own lies,
Lex Fridman (1:21:56.420)
not if they're effective lies.
Lex Fridman (1:21:58.340)
And if they're effective enough to fool millions of people,
Lex Fridman (1:22:02.300)
and then they reflect them back to you,
Lex Fridman (1:22:04.380)
what makes you think you're going
Lex Fridman (1:22:06.180)
to be able to withstand that?
Jordan Peterson (1:22:08.140)
You aren't.
Lex Fridman (1:22:08.940)
And so I do think Putin believes, to the degree
Jordan Peterson (1:22:12.660)
that he believes anything, I do believe
Lex Fridman (1:22:15.300)
that he thinks of himself as a bulwark for Christendom
Jordan Peterson (1:22:20.620)
against the degeneration of the West.
Lex Fridman (1:22:23.540)
And that's that third way that Dugin and Putin
Jordan Peterson (1:22:26.620)
have been talking about, the philosopher Alexander Dugin
Lex Fridman (1:22:29.340)
and Putin for 15 years.
Jordan Peterson (1:22:31.060)
Now, what that is is very amorphous.
Lex Fridman (1:22:34.580)
Solzhenitsyn thought the Russians
Jordan Peterson (1:22:36.580)
would have to return to the incremental development
Lex Fridman (1:22:40.900)
of Orthodox Christianity to escape from the communist trap.
Lex Fridman (1:22:44.940)
And to some degree, that's happened in Russia
Lex Fridman (1:22:46.860)
because there's been a return to Orthodox Christianity.
Jordan Peterson (1:22:49.420)
Now, you could say, yeah, but the Orthodox church
Lex Fridman (1:22:51.780)
has just been coopted by the state.
Lex Fridman (1:22:53.900)
And I would say there's some evidence for that.
Lex Fridman (1:22:55.980)
I've heard, for example, that the Metropolitan owns,
Jordan Peterson (1:23:01.020)
now I don't know if this is true,
Lex Fridman (1:23:03.180)
owns $5 billion worth of personal property.
Lex Fridman (1:23:06.300)
And I would say there's a bit of a moral hazard in that.
Lex Fridman (1:23:09.060)
And it's possible that the Orthodox church
Jordan Peterson (1:23:11.660)
has been coopted.
Lex Fridman (1:23:12.860)
But there has been somewhat of an Orthodox revival in Russia.
Lex Fridman (1:23:16.420)
And I don't think that's all bad.
Lex Fridman (1:23:18.580)
Now, even if Putin doesn't believe any of this,
Jordan Peterson (1:23:21.500)
if he's just a psychopathic manipulator,
Lex Fridman (1:23:24.180)
and unfortunately, I don't think that's true.
Jordan Peterson (1:23:29.220)
I've read his speeches.
Lex Fridman (1:23:30.620)
It doesn't look like it to me.
Lex Fridman (1:23:32.460)
And he is by no means the worst Russian leader
Lex Fridman (1:23:34.740)
of the last 100 years.
Jordan Peterson (1:23:37.220)
Well, there's quite a selection there.
Lex Fridman (1:23:39.340)
There certainly is.
Lex Fridman (1:23:41.500)
And I say that knowing that.
Lex Fridman (1:23:45.380)
Even if he doesn't believe it, he's convinced his people
Jordan Peterson (1:23:49.860)
that it's true.
Lex Fridman (1:23:51.500)
And so we're stuck with the claim in either case.
Lex Fridman (1:23:57.260)
And that's the point I was trying to make in the article.
Lex Fridman (1:23:59.860)
Sometimes I'm troubled by people that explain things.
Lex Fridman (1:24:05.740)
And a lot of people have reached out to me, experts,
Lex Fridman (1:24:09.260)
telling me how I should feel, what
Jordan Peterson (1:24:12.020)
I should think about Ukraine.
Lex Fridman (1:24:14.060)
Oh, you naive Lex, you're so naive.
Jordan Peterson (1:24:18.340)
Here's how it really is.
Lex Fridman (1:24:20.340)
But then I get to see people that lost their home.
Jordan Peterson (1:24:24.140)
I get to see people on the Russian side who believe
Lex Fridman (1:24:27.300)
they're, I genuinely think that there's some degree to which
Jordan Peterson (1:24:31.420)
they have love in their heart.
Lex Fridman (1:24:33.500)
They see themselves as heroes saving a land from Nazis.
Lex Fridman (1:24:38.860)
How else would you motivate young men to go fight?
Lex Fridman (1:24:41.420)
It's just, it's these humans destroying not only their homes,
Lex Fridman (1:24:47.540)
but creating generational hate, destroying
Lex Fridman (1:24:50.020)
the possibility of love towards each other.
Jordan Peterson (1:24:52.780)
They're basically creating hate.
Lex Fridman (1:24:54.700)
What I've heard a lot of is on February 24 of this year,
Jordan Peterson (1:24:59.540)
hate was born at a scale that region has not seen.
Lex Fridman (1:25:04.260)
Hate towards not Vladimir Putin, hate towards not
Jordan Peterson (1:25:07.820)
the soldiers in Russia, but hate towards all Russians.
Lex Fridman (1:25:12.980)
Hate that will last generations.
Lex Fridman (1:25:15.460)
And then you can see just the pain there.
Lex Fridman (1:25:23.940)
And then when all these experts talk about agriculture,
Lex Fridman (1:25:32.340)
and energy, and geopolitics, and yeah,
Lex Fridman (1:25:35.660)
maybe like what you say with fighting
Jordan Peterson (1:25:39.180)
the ideologies of the woke and so on,
Lex Fridman (1:25:41.340)
I just feel like it's missing something deep,
Jordan Peterson (1:25:45.660)
that war is not fought about any of those things.
Lex Fridman (1:25:52.500)
War is started, and war is averted based on human beings,
Jordan Peterson (1:25:56.900)
based on humanity.
Lex Fridman (1:25:58.860)
Here's another ugly thought, since we
Jordan Peterson (1:26:01.260)
haven't had enough so far.
Lex Fridman (1:26:05.940)
We locked everything down for COVID.
Lex Fridman (1:26:08.780)
How much face to face communication
Lex Fridman (1:26:10.380)
was there between the West and Vladimir Putin?
Lex Fridman (1:26:12.940)
How about none?
Lex Fridman (1:26:14.420)
How about that was the wrong amount,
Jordan Peterson (1:26:16.940)
especially given that Europe was completely dependent on Putin
Lex Fridman (1:26:19.820)
for its energy supplies?
Jordan Peterson (1:26:21.060)
Well, not completely, but you know what I mean.
Lex Fridman (1:26:23.460)
Materially and significantly.
Jordan Peterson (1:26:26.020)
Maybe he had to go talk to him once every six months.
Lex Fridman (1:26:28.620)
Maybe he's in a bit of a bubble.
Jordan Peterson (1:26:30.780)
Probably.
Lex Fridman (1:26:31.660)
And not just an information bubble,
Lex Fridman (1:26:34.260)
how all these experts tell me about.
Lex Fridman (1:26:36.260)
Yeah, no, a human bubble.
Jordan Peterson (1:26:39.140)
Look, one of the things I've really learned,
Lex Fridman (1:26:41.220)
there's a real emphasis on hospitality
Jordan Peterson (1:26:43.180)
in the Old Testament.
Lex Fridman (1:26:45.220)
I just brought all these scholars together
Jordan Peterson (1:26:46.940)
to talk about Exodus.
Lex Fridman (1:26:48.060)
Hey, I have this security team with me,
Lex Fridman (1:26:50.780)
and they're tough military guys.
Lex Fridman (1:26:53.660)
But they're on board for this mission, let's say.
Lex Fridman (1:26:57.180)
And so they went out of their way
Lex Fridman (1:26:58.620)
to be hospitable to my academic guests.
Jordan Peterson (1:27:01.380)
They laid out nice platters of meat and cheese and crackers.
Lex Fridman (1:27:04.300)
They spent all day preparing this house
Jordan Peterson (1:27:06.300)
I had rented so that we could have a hospitable time
Lex Fridman (1:27:09.020)
with these scholars.
Jordan Peterson (1:27:09.860)
Most of whom I didn't know well,
Lex Fridman (1:27:11.180)
but who said they would come and spend eight days
Jordan Peterson (1:27:13.460)
talking about this book with me.
Lex Fridman (1:27:15.460)
We rented some jet skis.
Jordan Peterson (1:27:16.740)
We had a nice house.
Lex Fridman (1:27:18.060)
We had fun.
Lex Fridman (1:27:19.700)
And we got to know each other.
Lex Fridman (1:27:21.420)
And we got to trust each other
Jordan Peterson (1:27:22.860)
because we could see that we could have some fun
Lex Fridman (1:27:24.660)
and that we could let our hair down a bit.
Jordan Peterson (1:27:26.420)
We didn't have to be on guard.
Lex Fridman (1:27:27.860)
And that made the talks way deeper.
Lex Fridman (1:27:30.780)
And then we found out we couldn't get through Exodus
Lex Fridman (1:27:33.700)
in eight days.
Lex Fridman (1:27:34.540)
And so I had proposed very early on
Lex Fridman (1:27:37.420)
that we're gonna double the length.
Lex Fridman (1:27:38.780)
And so I pulled eight people out of their lives
Lex Fridman (1:27:41.020)
for eight days.
Jordan Peterson (1:27:42.860)
That's not an easy thing to do.
Lex Fridman (1:27:44.940)
It's also quite expensive.
Lex Fridman (1:27:46.300)
And the Daily Wire Plus people picked all that up.
Lex Fridman (1:27:49.060)
And they said, right.
Jordan Peterson (1:27:50.180)
They said, yes, right away.
Lex Fridman (1:27:51.940)
So we'd love to do this again.
Lex Fridman (1:27:53.900)
Well, why?
Lex Fridman (1:27:54.900)
Well, partly because it was intellectually,
Jordan Peterson (1:27:57.460)
it was unbelievably engaging.
Lex Fridman (1:27:58.740)
I learned so much.
Jordan Peterson (1:27:59.580)
It'll take me like a year to digest it
Lex Fridman (1:28:01.540)
if I can ever digest it.
Lex Fridman (1:28:04.900)
But they had a really good time.
Lex Fridman (1:28:08.420)
And so when they were offered that combination
Jordan Peterson (1:28:11.020)
of intellectual challenge, let's say in hospitality,
Lex Fridman (1:28:14.420)
it was a no brainer.
Jordan Peterson (1:28:15.540)
They just said, every one of them said,
Lex Fridman (1:28:17.660)
if I can do it in any way, I will definitely be there.
Lex Fridman (1:28:20.340)
And this, I went to Washington a bunch of times
Lex Fridman (1:28:24.100)
and the culture of hospitality has broken down
Jordan Peterson (1:28:26.900)
in Washington.
Lex Fridman (1:28:28.260)
40% of congressmen sleep in their offices.
Jordan Peterson (1:28:31.620)
They don't have apartments.
Lex Fridman (1:28:33.140)
Their family isn't there with them.
Jordan Peterson (1:28:35.140)
They don't have social occasions with their fellow Democrats
Lex Fridman (1:28:39.700)
or Republicans, much less across the table.
Lex Fridman (1:28:43.060)
And so, and I tried to have some meetings in Washington
Lex Fridman (1:28:46.020)
that were bilateral a couple of times,
Jordan Peterson (1:28:48.460)
get young Republican congressmen
Lex Fridman (1:28:50.500)
and Democrats together to talk.
Lex Fridman (1:28:52.580)
And as soon as they talk, they think,
Lex Fridman (1:28:54.020)
oh, it was so interesting.
Jordan Peterson (1:28:55.980)
Cause one of the lunches was about 15 people,
Lex Fridman (1:28:59.180)
half Democrats and half Republicans.
Lex Fridman (1:29:01.300)
And all I'd asked them to do was just spend three minutes
Lex Fridman (1:29:03.820)
talking about why you decided to become a congressman,
Jordan Peterson (1:29:06.340)
which is not a job I would take, by the way.
Lex Fridman (1:29:09.420)
You spend 25 hours a week fundraising on the telephone.
Jordan Peterson (1:29:12.900)
Your family isn't there with you.
Lex Fridman (1:29:14.860)
You have to run for reelection every two years.
Lex Fridman (1:29:17.700)
You're beholden to the party apparatus, right?
Lex Fridman (1:29:20.620)
You're vilified constantly.
Jordan Peterson (1:29:22.580)
This is not, you know, people think,
Lex Fridman (1:29:25.060)
well, this is a job for the privileged.
Jordan Peterson (1:29:26.820)
It's like, yeah, you go and run for Congress
Lex Fridman (1:29:29.700)
and find out how much fun it is
Lex Fridman (1:29:30.940)
and put your family on the line
Lex Fridman (1:29:32.100)
and then have to beg for your job every two years
Jordan Peterson (1:29:34.260)
while your enemies, the worst of your enemies
Lex Fridman (1:29:37.100)
and the worst of your friends
Jordan Peterson (1:29:38.420)
are viciously hen pecking you.
Lex Fridman (1:29:41.340)
And so anyways, we had them all sit around the table
Lex Fridman (1:29:43.540)
and said, okay, just say why you ran for Congress.
Lex Fridman (1:29:47.740)
It was so cool, especially for a Canadian,
Jordan Peterson (1:29:49.500)
cause you Americans, you're so bloody theatrical.
Lex Fridman (1:29:51.700)
It's such something to watch.
Jordan Peterson (1:29:54.260)
It was like, Mr. Smith goes to Washington
Lex Fridman (1:29:56.140)
for every one of them.
Jordan Peterson (1:29:56.980)
It's like, well, this country has given us so much,
Lex Fridman (1:29:59.180)
where our families have been so,
Jordan Peterson (1:30:02.140)
we've benefited so much from our time here.
Lex Fridman (1:30:05.340)
We think this is a wonderful country.
Jordan Peterson (1:30:06.820)
We really felt that we should give back.
Lex Fridman (1:30:09.220)
And the next one would talk.
Lex Fridman (1:30:10.500)
And it was like exactly the same story.
Lex Fridman (1:30:12.220)
And then it didn't matter
Jordan Peterson (1:30:13.500)
if they were Republican or Democrat,
Lex Fridman (1:30:14.740)
you couldn't tell the difference.
Jordan Peterson (1:30:15.740)
No one could.
Lex Fridman (1:30:16.900)
And was it genuine?
Lex Fridman (1:30:17.940)
It's like, well, are you genuine?
Lex Fridman (1:30:20.260)
You think these people are worse than you?
Jordan Peterson (1:30:23.140)
First of all, they're not.
Lex Fridman (1:30:25.260)
Second of all, they're probably better.
Jordan Peterson (1:30:27.700)
All things considered,
Lex Fridman (1:30:29.220)
it's not that easy to become a Congressman.
Lex Fridman (1:30:31.780)
And I'm sure there's some bad apples in the bunch,
Lex Fridman (1:30:34.220)
but by and large,
Jordan Peterson (1:30:35.660)
you walk away from your meetings with these people
Lex Fridman (1:30:37.740)
and you think, pretty impressive.
Jordan Peterson (1:30:42.060)
They really are giving a part of themselves
Lex Fridman (1:30:44.180)
in the name of service.
Jordan Peterson (1:30:45.540)
Maybe over time, they become cynical
Lex Fridman (1:30:48.180)
and become jaded and worn down by the whole system.
Lex Fridman (1:30:52.780)
But I think a lot of it.
Lex Fridman (1:30:54.140)
Could you imagine that?
Jordan Peterson (1:30:55.620)
Is healed, I think.
Lex Fridman (1:30:58.260)
And I don't think I'm, well, I'm in part naive,
Lex Fridman (1:31:01.020)
but not fully,
Lex Fridman (1:31:02.340)
that a lot of it is healed
Jordan Peterson (1:31:03.740)
through the power of conversation,
Lex Fridman (1:31:05.500)
just basic social interaction.
Jordan Peterson (1:31:08.180)
I do think that the effects of this pandemic.
Lex Fridman (1:31:11.980)
Especially by listening.
Jordan Peterson (1:31:13.940)
Listen, just sitting there.
Lex Fridman (1:31:15.460)
And it doesn't have to be talking about the actual issue.
Jordan Peterson (1:31:17.980)
It's actually humor and all those kinds of things
Lex Fridman (1:31:21.620)
about personal struggles,
Jordan Peterson (1:31:23.940)
all those kinds of things that remind you
Lex Fridman (1:31:26.260)
that you're all just humans.
Jordan Peterson (1:31:29.220)
Well, the great leaders that I've met,
Lex Fridman (1:31:31.500)
and I've met some now,
Jordan Peterson (1:31:33.900)
they go listen to their constituents.
Lex Fridman (1:31:36.100)
It's not a policy discussion.
Jordan Peterson (1:31:37.380)
It's not an ideology discussion.
Lex Fridman (1:31:38.660)
They go say, okay, what's your life like?
Lex Fridman (1:31:42.260)
And what are your problems?
Lex Fridman (1:31:43.580)
And tell me about them.
Lex Fridman (1:31:45.740)
And then they listen and then they're struck by them.
Lex Fridman (1:31:47.940)
And then they gather up all that misery
Lex Fridman (1:31:49.700)
and they bring it to the congressional office
Lex Fridman (1:31:52.260)
or to the parliament.
Lex Fridman (1:31:53.180)
And they think, here's what the people are crying out for.
Lex Fridman (1:31:57.620)
And the good leaders, that's a leader.
Jordan Peterson (1:32:00.580)
Leader listens.
Lex Fridman (1:32:02.460)
So I talked to Jimmy Carr about comedy.
Lex Fridman (1:32:06.820)
And he's sold out stages worldwide on a tour, being funny.
Lex Fridman (1:32:13.140)
That's hard.
Jordan Peterson (1:32:14.340)
He said, comedy is the most standup comedy,
Lex Fridman (1:32:18.300)
which is what I do in some real sense.
Jordan Peterson (1:32:20.820)
It's a thing I do that it's most akin
Lex Fridman (1:32:23.420)
to what I'm doing on my book tours, I would say.
Jordan Peterson (1:32:25.780)
It's the closest analog.
Lex Fridman (1:32:27.420)
He said, it's the most dialogical enterprise.
Lex Fridman (1:32:29.780)
And I thought, well, why, what do you mean?
Lex Fridman (1:32:32.340)
Cause see, it's just the monologue.
Lex Fridman (1:32:34.180)
And it's a prepared monologue.
Lex Fridman (1:32:36.220)
I mean, you have to interact dynamically with the audience
Jordan Peterson (1:32:39.860)
while you're telling your jokes
Lex Fridman (1:32:40.940)
and you gotta get the timing right,
Lex Fridman (1:32:42.020)
but you have a body of jokes.
Lex Fridman (1:32:44.660)
He said, well, here's how you prepare the jokes.
Lex Fridman (1:32:47.140)
And I've been told this by other comedians.
Lex Fridman (1:32:49.460)
You go to 50 clubs before you go on your tour
Lex Fridman (1:32:52.580)
and you got some new material and you think it's funny.
Lex Fridman (1:32:55.260)
And you go into a club and you lay out your new material
Lex Fridman (1:32:58.540)
and people laugh at some of it.
Lex Fridman (1:33:01.860)
And you pay attention to what they laugh at
Lex Fridman (1:33:04.500)
and what they don't laugh at.
Lex Fridman (1:33:06.340)
So you subject yourself to the judgment of the crowd
Lex Fridman (1:33:09.020)
and you get rid of everything that isn't funny.
Lex Fridman (1:33:11.340)
And if you do that enough, even if you're not that funny,
Jordan Peterson (1:33:14.500)
the crowd will tell you what's funny.
Lex Fridman (1:33:17.140)
So you can imagine, imagine you do 50 shows
Lex Fridman (1:33:20.020)
and each is an hour long
Lex Fridman (1:33:21.020)
and you collect two minutes of humor from each show.
Lex Fridman (1:33:24.460)
So you throw away 90, you throw away two hours,
Lex Fridman (1:33:27.940)
more than 98% of it, collect two minutes per show.
Lex Fridman (1:33:32.780)
So you're not very funny at all.
Lex Fridman (1:33:34.260)
You're like funny 2% of the time.
Jordan Peterson (1:33:35.860)
You aggregate that, man, you're a scream.
Lex Fridman (1:33:38.860)
So that's what a leader does is,
Jordan Peterson (1:33:41.420)
that is what a leader does is goes out
Lex Fridman (1:33:43.140)
and he aggregates the misery, you know, and the hopes.
Lex Fridman (1:33:46.900)
And then I do think that's revivify
Lex Fridman (1:33:49.900)
to someone who would otherwise be cynical and jaded
Jordan Peterson (1:33:52.100)
because then the person can say to themselves,
Lex Fridman (1:33:54.580)
despite the inadequacies of the system and my inadequacies,
Jordan Peterson (1:33:58.700)
I'm gathering up the misery and the hope
Lex Fridman (1:34:02.540)
and I'm bringing it forward where it can be redressed.
Jordan Peterson (1:34:06.540)
Giving it a voice.
Lex Fridman (1:34:07.580)
Yeah, that's right, giving it a voice.
Lex Fridman (1:34:09.380)
Can you actually take me through a day
Lex Fridman (1:34:10.860)
because this is fascinating, through your comedy tour.
Lex Fridman (1:34:14.620)
What does a day in the life of Jordan Peterson look like?
Lex Fridman (1:34:20.540)
Which is this very interesting day.
Jordan Peterson (1:34:22.500)
Let's look at the day when you have to speak.
Lex Fridman (1:34:25.660)
Preparing your mind,
Jordan Peterson (1:34:27.180)
thinking of what you're going to talk about,
Lex Fridman (1:34:30.060)
preparing yourself physically and mentally
Jordan Peterson (1:34:33.660)
to interact with the crowd through the actual speaking,
Lex Fridman (1:34:37.260)
how do you adjust what you're thinking through
Lex Fridman (1:34:39.780)
and how do you come down from that?
Lex Fridman (1:34:41.740)
So you can start all again as a limited biological system.
Jordan Peterson (1:34:47.940)
Well, I'm usually up by seven
Lex Fridman (1:34:52.220)
and ready to go by 7.30 or eight.
Lex Fridman (1:34:56.740)
Coffee?
Lex Fridman (1:34:57.820)
No, steak and water.
Lex Fridman (1:35:00.460)
How many times a day steak?
Lex Fridman (1:35:02.460)
All, that's all I eat.
Lex Fridman (1:35:03.780)
How many times?
Lex Fridman (1:35:05.060)
Three or four, depending on the day.
Jordan Peterson (1:35:07.220)
Steak and water.
Lex Fridman (1:35:08.060)
Steak and sparkling water.
Jordan Peterson (1:35:09.500)
Yeah, so monastic asceticism, man.
Lex Fridman (1:35:12.980)
Well, I did the proper, I usually just once a day,
Jordan Peterson (1:35:16.140)
I did the proper Jordan Peterson last night
Lex Fridman (1:35:18.740)
and just ate two steaks.
Lex Fridman (1:35:19.820)
And how was that?
Lex Fridman (1:35:20.980)
It was wonderful.
Jordan Peterson (1:35:22.380)
Yeah, well, if you have to only eat one thing,
Lex Fridman (1:35:25.580)
you know, could be worse.
Lex Fridman (1:35:27.060)
So anyways, I'm ready to go at eight
Lex Fridman (1:35:28.940)
because we're generally moving.
Lex Fridman (1:35:31.380)
What does moving mean?
Lex Fridman (1:35:32.700)
Flying. You're constantly.
Jordan Peterson (1:35:33.900)
Flying somewhere.
Lex Fridman (1:35:35.220)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:35:36.060)
And we usually use private flights now
Lex Fridman (1:35:38.180)
because the commercial airlines aren't reliable enough
Lex Fridman (1:35:41.540)
and you cannot not make a venue, right?
Lex Fridman (1:35:44.700)
So that's rule number one on a tour.
Jordan Peterson (1:35:47.620)
You make the show.
Lex Fridman (1:35:50.380)
So everything, and then number rule number two
Jordan Peterson (1:35:52.660)
is anybody who causes any trouble on the tour is gone
Lex Fridman (1:35:56.700)
because there is zero room for error.
Jordan Peterson (1:35:59.340)
Now, no, there's zero room for unnecessary,
Lex Fridman (1:36:04.260)
unaddressed error.
Lex Fridman (1:36:05.260)
So there's gonna be errors.
Lex Fridman (1:36:06.540)
The guys I have around me now, if they make a mistake,
Jordan Peterson (1:36:10.580)
they fix it right away.
Lex Fridman (1:36:12.020)
So, and that's great.
Jordan Peterson (1:36:13.660)
There's a lot of people relying on you to be there.
Lex Fridman (1:36:15.780)
So you have to be there.
Jordan Peterson (1:36:16.620)
Yeah, like 4,000 people typically.
Lex Fridman (1:36:19.900)
So then I'm on the plane and I usually write or often
Jordan Peterson (1:36:28.180)
because there's no internet on the plane
Lex Fridman (1:36:31.100)
and that's a good use of time.
Lex Fridman (1:36:32.500)
So I'm writing a new book.
Lex Fridman (1:36:33.740)
So I write on the plane.
Lex Fridman (1:36:34.820)
Typing or handwriting?
Lex Fridman (1:36:36.220)
Typing, yeah, typing.
Lex Fridman (1:36:38.940)
And then we land and we go to,
Lex Fridman (1:36:43.580)
it's usually early afternoon by then we go to a hotel.
Jordan Peterson (1:36:47.340)
It's usually a nice hotel.
Lex Fridman (1:36:48.780)
It's not corporate.
Jordan Peterson (1:36:49.660)
I don't really like corporate hotels.
Lex Fridman (1:36:51.460)
My secretary and one of my logistics guys
Jordan Peterson (1:36:54.700)
has got quite good at picking kind of adventurous hotels,
Lex Fridman (1:36:59.180)
boutique hotels are usually in the old parts of the city,
Jordan Peterson (1:37:01.740)
especially in Europe, somewhere interesting.
Lex Fridman (1:37:03.980)
And so we go there and then lunch usually.
Lex Fridman (1:37:08.900)
And sometimes that's an air fryer and a steak
Lex Fridman (1:37:11.620)
in the hotel room.
Lex Fridman (1:37:12.460)
And I leave a trail of air fryers behind me
Lex Fridman (1:37:14.460)
all across the world.
Lex Fridman (1:37:15.980)
And then Tammy and I usually go out and have a walk
Lex Fridman (1:37:20.580)
or something and take a look at the city.
Lex Fridman (1:37:22.540)
And then I have a rest for like an hour and a half
Lex Fridman (1:37:25.100)
or an hour, half an hour.
Lex Fridman (1:37:26.300)
Like a nap?
Lex Fridman (1:37:27.140)
Yeah, nap.
Jordan Peterson (1:37:27.980)
I have to sleep for 20 minutes.
Lex Fridman (1:37:29.380)
And that's about all I can sleep,
Lex Fridman (1:37:30.420)
but I need to do that in the late afternoon.
Lex Fridman (1:37:31.740)
That refreshes your mind.
Jordan Peterson (1:37:32.900)
Yeah, that gives me, that wakes me up again for the evening.
Lex Fridman (1:37:36.380)
And then Tam has to sleep longer.
Jordan Peterson (1:37:38.260)
She's still recovering from her illness.
Lex Fridman (1:37:40.140)
And so she has to sleep longer in the afternoon
Lex Fridman (1:37:42.500)
and that's absolutely necessary for both of us
Lex Fridman (1:37:44.380)
or things start to get frayed.
Lex Fridman (1:37:46.540)
And so then we go to the venue
Lex Fridman (1:37:50.100)
and then I usually sit for an hour.
Jordan Peterson (1:37:54.660)
If I'm gonna lecture, I've been doing a lot of Q and A's
Lex Fridman (1:37:56.940)
and that's a little easier.
Lex Fridman (1:37:57.860)
But if I'm gonna lecture, I have to sit for an hour.
Lex Fridman (1:38:01.060)
And then I think, okay, what question am I trying
Lex Fridman (1:38:06.460)
to investigate?
Lex Fridman (1:38:07.620)
I have to have that, that's the point.
Lex Fridman (1:38:09.700)
What mystery am I trying to unravel?
Lex Fridman (1:38:13.140)
It's usually associated with one of the rules in my book
Jordan Peterson (1:38:15.620)
because technically it's a book tour,
Lex Fridman (1:38:17.700)
but each of those rules is an investigation into an ethic.
Lex Fridman (1:38:21.700)
And each of them points to a deeper sort of mystery
Lex Fridman (1:38:24.580)
in some sense.
Lex Fridman (1:38:25.420)
And there's no end to the amount that can be explored.
Lex Fridman (1:38:28.820)
And so I have the question,
Jordan Peterson (1:38:30.820)
my question might be something like put your house
Lex Fridman (1:38:36.020)
in perfect order before you criticize the world.
Lex Fridman (1:38:38.420)
Okay, what does that mean exactly?
Lex Fridman (1:38:40.740)
What does house mean?
Lex Fridman (1:38:42.300)
What does put mean, that active verb?
Lex Fridman (1:38:46.740)
What is perfect in order mean?
Lex Fridman (1:38:48.940)
Why before you criticize the world?
Lex Fridman (1:38:51.260)
What does it mean to criticize?
Lex Fridman (1:38:52.900)
What does it mean to criticize the world?
Lex Fridman (1:38:54.660)
How can you do that properly or improperly?
Lex Fridman (1:38:56.820)
So I start to think about how to decompose the question.
Lex Fridman (1:38:59.300)
And you start to think which of these decompositions
Lex Fridman (1:39:02.140)
are important to really dig into?
Lex Fridman (1:39:03.780)
Yeah, well, then they'll strike me.
Jordan Peterson (1:39:05.060)
It's like, okay, there's something there
Lex Fridman (1:39:06.380)
that I've been maybe noodling around on
Jordan Peterson (1:39:09.060)
that I would like to investigate further.
Lex Fridman (1:39:11.140)
Then I think, okay, how can I approach this problem?
Jordan Peterson (1:39:13.660)
I think, well, I have this story that I know,
Lex Fridman (1:39:16.220)
I have this story and I have this story,
Lex Fridman (1:39:17.900)
but I haven't juxtaposed them before.
Lex Fridman (1:39:19.940)
And there's gonna be some interesting interaction
Jordan Peterson (1:39:21.900)
in the juxtaposition.
Lex Fridman (1:39:23.420)
So I have the question
Lex Fridman (1:39:24.780)
and I kind of have a framework of interpretation.
Lex Fridman (1:39:27.500)
And then I have some potential narrative places I can go.
Lex Fridman (1:39:31.060)
And then I think, okay, I can go juggle that
Lex Fridman (1:39:33.300)
and see what happens.
Lex Fridman (1:39:35.100)
And so then what I wanna do is concentrate on that process
Lex Fridman (1:39:38.820)
while attending to the audience
Jordan Peterson (1:39:40.340)
to make sure that the words are landing
Lex Fridman (1:39:42.500)
and then see if I can delve into it deeply enough
Lex Fridman (1:39:45.020)
so that a narrative emerges spontaneously with an ending.
Lex Fridman (1:39:50.620)
Now, I'm sure you've experienced this in podcasts, right?
Jordan Peterson (1:39:53.420)
Maybe I'm wrong, but my experience has been
Lex Fridman (1:39:56.100)
if I fall into the conversation
Lex Fridman (1:39:58.380)
and we know about the timeframe,
Lex Fridman (1:40:00.780)
there'll be a natural narrative arc.
Lex Fridman (1:40:03.620)
And then, so you'll kind of know when the midpoint is
Lex Fridman (1:40:06.140)
and you'll kind of see when you're reaching a conclusion.
Lex Fridman (1:40:08.020)
And then if you really pay attention,
Lex Fridman (1:40:09.340)
you can see that's a good place to stop.
Lex Fridman (1:40:12.900)
And it's kind of, you come to a point
Lex Fridman (1:40:15.300)
and you have to be alert and patient to see that.
Lex Fridman (1:40:20.180)
And you have to be willing to be satisfied
Lex Fridman (1:40:22.300)
with where you've got to.
Lex Fridman (1:40:24.140)
But if you do that, and then it's like a comedian
Lex Fridman (1:40:26.660)
making the punchline work.
Jordan Peterson (1:40:28.700)
It's like, I've got all these balls in the air
Lex Fridman (1:40:32.220)
and they're going somewhere
Lex Fridman (1:40:33.820)
and this is how they come together.
Lex Fridman (1:40:36.380)
And people love that, right?
Jordan Peterson (1:40:37.660)
They say, oh, this and this and this and this and this.
Lex Fridman (1:40:40.100)
Whack, together.
Lex Fridman (1:40:42.660)
And that's an insight.
Lex Fridman (1:40:43.620)
And it is very much like a punchline.
Jordan Peterson (1:40:45.980)
Well, that's interesting because your mind actually,
Lex Fridman (1:40:48.260)
so I'm a fan of your podcast too.
Lex Fridman (1:40:49.860)
And you are always driving towards that.
Lex Fridman (1:40:53.380)
I would say for me in a podcast conversation,
Jordan Peterson (1:40:57.060)
there's often a kind of Alice in Wonderland
Lex Fridman (1:41:00.700)
type of exploration.
Jordan Peterson (1:41:02.260)
Down the rabbit hole, man.
Lex Fridman (1:41:03.540)
And then you just, a new thing pops up,
Jordan Peterson (1:41:06.180)
the more absurd, the wilder, the better.
Lex Fridman (1:41:08.820)
Conversations with Elon are like this.
Jordan Peterson (1:41:10.860)
It's like, actually the more you drive towards an arc,
Lex Fridman (1:41:14.180)
the more uncomfortable you start to get
Jordan Peterson (1:41:16.300)
in a fun, absurd conversation because,
Lex Fridman (1:41:19.740)
oh, I'm now one of the normies.
Jordan Peterson (1:41:22.420)
No, I don't want that.
Lex Fridman (1:41:23.460)
I wanna be, I want the rabbit.
Jordan Peterson (1:41:25.700)
I want the crazy because it makes it more fun.
Lex Fridman (1:41:29.740)
But somehow throughout it, there is wisdom
Jordan Peterson (1:41:33.740)
that you try to grasp at such that there is a thread.
Lex Fridman (1:41:37.500)
Well, that's the thing, man.
Lex Fridman (1:41:38.580)
You're following the thread, eh?
Lex Fridman (1:41:40.340)
Yeah, the thread's the, well, that's right.
Jordan Peterson (1:41:42.940)
That's what we're trying to do, that thread.
Lex Fridman (1:41:45.500)
That thread is the proper balance
Jordan Peterson (1:41:47.220)
between structure and spontaneity.
Lex Fridman (1:41:49.100)
And it manifests itself as the instinct of meaning.
Lex Fridman (1:41:52.180)
And that's the logos in the dialogos.
Lex Fridman (1:41:54.740)
And it really is the logos.
Lex Fridman (1:41:55.980)
And God only knows what that means.
Lex Fridman (1:41:58.620)
You know, I mean, the biblical claim
Jordan Peterson (1:42:00.380)
is that logos is the fundamental principle of reality.
Lex Fridman (1:42:03.740)
And I think that's true.
Jordan Peterson (1:42:05.700)
I actually think that's true
Lex Fridman (1:42:07.900)
because I think that that meaning that guides you,
Jordan Peterson (1:42:10.580)
well, here's a way of thinking about it.
Lex Fridman (1:42:11.820)
I've been writing about this recently.
Lex Fridman (1:42:14.220)
What's real matter?
Lex Fridman (1:42:17.100)
It's like, okay, that's one answer.
Lex Fridman (1:42:19.220)
What's real?
Lex Fridman (1:42:20.100)
What matters is real.
Jordan Peterson (1:42:22.180)
Because that's how you act.
Lex Fridman (1:42:24.020)
Okay, so that's different than matter.
Lex Fridman (1:42:26.900)
It's like, okay, what's the most real of what matters?
Lex Fridman (1:42:31.900)
How about pain?
Lex Fridman (1:42:33.700)
Why is it the most real?
Lex Fridman (1:42:35.500)
Try arguing it away.
Jordan Peterson (1:42:38.380)
Good luck.
Lex Fridman (1:42:40.220)
So pain is the fundamental reality.
Jordan Peterson (1:42:43.100)
All right.
Lex Fridman (1:42:44.940)
Well, that's rough.
Lex Fridman (1:42:46.860)
Doesn't that lead to nihilism and hopelessness?
Lex Fridman (1:42:50.220)
Yeah, doesn't it lead to a philosophy
Jordan Peterson (1:42:53.780)
that's antithetical towards being
Lex Fridman (1:42:55.780)
the most fundamental reality is pain?
Jordan Peterson (1:42:58.700)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (1:42:59.740)
Is there anything more fundamental than pain?
Jordan Peterson (1:43:03.620)
Love.
Lex Fridman (1:43:06.500)
Really?
Jordan Peterson (1:43:08.300)
If you're in pain,
Lex Fridman (1:43:13.780)
love and truth,
Jordan Peterson (1:43:14.900)
that's what you got.
Lex Fridman (1:43:17.100)
And you know,
Jordan Peterson (1:43:24.020)
if they're more powerful than pain,
Lex Fridman (1:43:26.700)
maybe they're the most real things.
Lex Fridman (1:43:31.580)
When you think about reality, what is real?
Lex Fridman (1:43:33.580)
That is the most real thing.
Lex Fridman (1:43:36.100)
Well, it's a tough one, right?
Lex Fridman (1:43:37.460)
Because you have to,
Jordan Peterson (1:43:39.060)
because if you're a scientist, a materialist,
Lex Fridman (1:43:41.020)
think, well, the matter is the most real.
Jordan Peterson (1:43:44.940)
It's like, well, you don't know what the matter is.
Lex Fridman (1:43:47.460)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:43:48.300)
And so, and then when push comes to shove,
Lex Fridman (1:43:49.700)
and it will, you'll find out what's most real.
Jordan Peterson (1:43:53.020)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:43:54.860)
I feel like this is missing,
Jordan Peterson (1:43:59.180)
the physical reality is missing some of the things.
Lex Fridman (1:44:03.460)
So of course pain has a biological component
Lex Fridman (1:44:05.940)
and all those kinds of things,
Lex Fridman (1:44:06.820)
but it's missing something deep about the human condition
Jordan Peterson (1:44:10.620)
that at least the modern science is not able to describe,
Lex Fridman (1:44:15.220)
but it is reaching towards that.
Jordan Peterson (1:44:17.220)
Yeah, it is.
Lex Fridman (1:44:18.060)
And it's the reason, one way to describe it
Jordan Peterson (1:44:21.060)
as you're describing is the reason it's reaching it
Lex Fridman (1:44:23.660)
is because underneath of science is this assumption
Jordan Peterson (1:44:27.340)
that there's a deep.
Lex Fridman (1:44:30.460)
Logos.
Jordan Peterson (1:44:31.940)
Thing to this whole thing we're trying to do.
Lex Fridman (1:44:34.740)
Well, you know, there's two traditions, right?
Jordan Peterson (1:44:36.540)
In some sense, there's two logos traditions.
Lex Fridman (1:44:39.500)
There's the Greek rational enlightenment tradition.
Jordan Peterson (1:44:44.300)
That's a logos tradition.
Lex Fridman (1:44:45.780)
And it insists that there's a logos in nature
Lex Fridman (1:44:48.420)
and that science is the way to approach it.
Lex Fridman (1:44:50.620)
And then there's a Judeo Christian logos,
Jordan Peterson (1:44:52.500)
which is more embodied and more spiritual.
Lex Fridman (1:44:55.060)
And I would say the West is actually an attempt
Jordan Peterson (1:44:57.140)
to unite those two.
Lex Fridman (1:44:59.020)
And it's the proper attempt to unite those two
Jordan Peterson (1:45:02.540)
because they need to be united.
Lex Fridman (1:45:04.860)
And I see the union coming in your terms.
Jordan Peterson (1:45:07.460)
You know, I talked to friends to wall, for example
Lex Fridman (1:45:09.700)
about the animating principle of chimpanzee sovereignty.
Lex Fridman (1:45:13.380)
And that's pretty close biologically.
Lex Fridman (1:45:15.260)
Is it power?
Jordan Peterson (1:45:16.820)
Cause that's the claim even from the biologists often
Lex Fridman (1:45:19.380)
the most dominant chimp has the best reproductive success.
Jordan Peterson (1:45:23.660)
It's like, oh yeah, dominant.
Lex Fridman (1:45:26.140)
Hey, you mean using compulsion?
Jordan Peterson (1:45:28.340)
Okay, let's look.
Lex Fridman (1:45:29.940)
Are the chimps who use compulsion the most successful?
Lex Fridman (1:45:34.620)
And the answer is sporadically and rarely.
Lex Fridman (1:45:39.100)
And for short, well, that's sporadically
Jordan Peterson (1:45:41.460)
for short periods of time.
Lex Fridman (1:45:43.020)
Why?
Jordan Peterson (1:45:44.100)
Because they meet an unpleasant end.
Lex Fridman (1:45:47.780)
The subordinates over whom they exercise arbitrary control
Lex Fridman (1:45:52.420)
wait for a weak moment and then tear them into shreds, right?
Lex Fridman (1:45:56.940)
Every dictators terror and for good reason.
Lex Fridman (1:46:00.540)
And the wall has showed that the alpha chimps,
Lex Fridman (1:46:03.020)
the males who do have preferential mating access often
Jordan Peterson (1:46:07.340)
are often and reliably the best peacemakers
Lex Fridman (1:46:12.060)
and the most reciprocal.
Lex Fridman (1:46:14.140)
And so even among chimps, the principle of sovereignty
Lex Fridman (1:46:16.620)
is something like iterative, iterated reciprocity.
Lex Fridman (1:46:23.020)
And that's a way better principle than power.
Lex Fridman (1:46:26.860)
And it's something like I've been thinking
Jordan Peterson (1:46:28.740)
what's the antithesis of the spirit of power.
Lex Fridman (1:46:31.620)
I think it's the spirit of play.
Lex Fridman (1:46:35.340)
And I don't know what you think about that,
Lex Fridman (1:46:37.460)
but when you have a good podcast conversation,
Jordan Peterson (1:46:39.620)
you already described it in some sense as play.
Lex Fridman (1:46:41.900)
It's like, there's a structure, right?
Jordan Peterson (1:46:43.420)
Cause it's an ordered conversation,
Lex Fridman (1:46:45.940)
but you want there to be play in the system.
Lex Fridman (1:46:48.140)
And if you get that right, then it's really engaging.
Lex Fridman (1:46:51.340)
And then it seems to have its own narrative arc.
Jordan Peterson (1:46:54.860)
I'm not trying to impose that even though
Lex Fridman (1:46:56.780)
that's another thing I don't do.
Jordan Peterson (1:46:58.140)
I didn't come to this conversation at all thinking,
Lex Fridman (1:47:01.300)
here's what I want out of a conversation
Jordan Peterson (1:47:03.220)
with Lex Friedman, like instrumentally.
Lex Fridman (1:47:06.020)
I thought, I'll go talk to Lex.
Lex Fridman (1:47:08.860)
Why?
Lex Fridman (1:47:10.860)
I like his podcasts.
Jordan Peterson (1:47:13.140)
He's doing something right.
Lex Fridman (1:47:14.500)
I don't know what it is.
Jordan Peterson (1:47:15.820)
He asks interesting questions.
Lex Fridman (1:47:17.940)
I'll go have a conversation with him.
Lex Fridman (1:47:19.780)
Where's it gonna go?
Lex Fridman (1:47:22.180)
Wherever it goes.
Jordan Peterson (1:47:24.420)
Embracing the spirit of play.
Lex Fridman (1:47:26.340)
So what you have this, when you're lecturing,
Jordan Peterson (1:47:30.020)
you're going in front of the crowd,
Lex Fridman (1:47:32.060)
you thought of a question, you get on the stage.
Lex Fridman (1:47:36.380)
First of all, are you nervous at all?
Lex Fridman (1:47:39.580)
I'm very nervous when I'm sitting down,
Jordan Peterson (1:47:43.060)
thinking through the structure initially,
Lex Fridman (1:47:46.060)
which is why my wife and I have been doing Q and As
Lex Fridman (1:47:49.020)
and that's easier on me.
Lex Fridman (1:47:50.820)
It's the way comedians are nervous.
Jordan Peterson (1:47:54.460)
Like Joe Rogan just did his special this weekend.
Lex Fridman (1:47:59.180)
And so he now has to sit nervously like a comedian does,
Jordan Peterson (1:48:03.820)
which is like, I have no material now.
Lex Fridman (1:48:07.020)
Right.
Jordan Peterson (1:48:07.860)
I have to start from scratch.
Lex Fridman (1:48:08.700)
When I was doing the lectures constantly
Jordan Peterson (1:48:10.780)
instead of the Q and As,
Lex Fridman (1:48:13.420)
basically what I was doing was writing
Jordan Peterson (1:48:15.340)
a whole book chapter every night.
Lex Fridman (1:48:17.820)
And now that's a bit of an exaggeration
Jordan Peterson (1:48:20.300)
because I would return to themes that I had developed,
Lex Fridman (1:48:22.660)
but it's not really an exaggeration
Jordan Peterson (1:48:24.500)
because I didn't ever just go over wrote material ever.
Lex Fridman (1:48:30.220)
So it's very demanding and that part's nerve wracking
Jordan Peterson (1:48:34.540)
because I sit down, it's an hour before the show
Lex Fridman (1:48:36.420)
and I think, can I do this?
Lex Fridman (1:48:41.020)
And the answer is, well, you did it a thousand times,
Lex Fridman (1:48:45.020)
but that's not this time.
Lex Fridman (1:48:46.900)
It's like, can I come up with a question?
Lex Fridman (1:48:49.140)
Can I think through the structure?
Lex Fridman (1:48:51.260)
Can I pull off the spontaneous narrative?
Lex Fridman (1:48:56.140)
Can I pull it together?
Lex Fridman (1:48:57.420)
And the answer is, I don't know.
Lex Fridman (1:49:00.060)
And so then I get it together in my mind, I think,
Lex Fridman (1:49:02.660)
and that's hard.
Lex Fridman (1:49:03.500)
It takes effort and it's nerve wracking.
Jordan Peterson (1:49:06.820)
Okay, I got it.
Lex Fridman (1:49:07.700)
But then there's the moment you go out on stage
Lex Fridman (1:49:09.660)
and you think, well, I know I had it, but can I do it?
Lex Fridman (1:49:13.420)
No notes.
Lex Fridman (1:49:15.140)
And then the question is,
Lex Fridman (1:49:16.340)
well, you're gonna find out while you do it.
Lex Fridman (1:49:18.860)
And so then I go out on stage and I don't talk
Lex Fridman (1:49:22.860)
to the audience, I talk to one person at a time.
Lex Fridman (1:49:27.740)
And you can talk to one person,
Lex Fridman (1:49:29.580)
cause you know how to do that.
Lex Fridman (1:49:30.540)
So I talk to a person and not too long
Lex Fridman (1:49:32.420)
cause I don't wanna make them too nervous
Lex Fridman (1:49:33.860)
and then someone else and someone else.
Lex Fridman (1:49:35.940)
And then I'm in contact with the audience
Lex Fridman (1:49:37.980)
and then I can tell if the words are landing
Lex Fridman (1:49:41.100)
and I listen, it's like, are they rustling around?
Lex Fridman (1:49:44.580)
Are they dead quiet?
Lex Fridman (1:49:46.100)
Cause you want dead quiet.
Jordan Peterson (1:49:47.660)
You're, oh, I see.
Lex Fridman (1:49:49.380)
That's what focus sounds like.
Jordan Peterson (1:49:52.060)
You're in it together then.
Lex Fridman (1:49:53.460)
You bet.
Jordan Peterson (1:49:54.300)
Well, and I also, here's a good rule
Lex Fridman (1:49:55.660)
if you're learning to speak publicly,
Jordan Peterson (1:49:57.700)
I never say a word till everyone is 100% quiet.
Lex Fridman (1:50:04.580)
And that's, it's a great way to start a talk
Jordan Peterson (1:50:06.660)
because you're setting the frame,
Lex Fridman (1:50:08.940)
and if the frame is we'll all talk while you're talking,
Jordan Peterson (1:50:11.580)
the message is, well, you can talk.
Lex Fridman (1:50:14.420)
This is a place where everybody can talk.
Jordan Peterson (1:50:16.220)
It's like, no, it's not.
Lex Fridman (1:50:17.900)
This is a place where people paid to hear me talk.
Lex Fridman (1:50:21.180)
So I'm not gonna talk till everyone's listening.
Lex Fridman (1:50:24.020)
And so then you get that stillness
Lex Fridman (1:50:26.980)
and then you just wait
Lex Fridman (1:50:28.180)
cause that stillness turns into an expectation.
Lex Fridman (1:50:30.820)
And then it comes, turns into a kind of nervous expectations
Lex Fridman (1:50:34.420)
like what the hell is he doing?
Jordan Peterson (1:50:35.940)
It's not manipulative.
Lex Fridman (1:50:37.140)
It's a sense of timing.
Jordan Peterson (1:50:38.740)
It's like just when that's right,
Lex Fridman (1:50:40.420)
you think, okay, now it's time to start.
Jordan Peterson (1:50:42.940)
Well, the interesting thing about that nervous expectation
Lex Fridman (1:50:46.220)
is from an audience perspective, we're in it together.
Jordan Peterson (1:50:49.380)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:50:50.220)
I mean, there is into that silence,
Jordan Peterson (1:50:51.580)
there's a togetherness to it.
Lex Fridman (1:50:53.100)
Of course, it's the union of everyone's attention.
Jordan Peterson (1:50:55.420)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:50:56.260)
Yeah, and that's a great thing.
Jordan Peterson (1:50:58.460)
I mean, you love that at a concert when everyone,
Lex Fridman (1:51:00.740)
it's not silence then,
Lex Fridman (1:51:01.740)
but when everyone's attention is unified
Lex Fridman (1:51:03.940)
and everyone's moving in unison,
Lex Fridman (1:51:05.260)
it's like we're all worshiping the same thing, right?
Lex Fridman (1:51:09.340)
And that would be the point of the conversation,
Jordan Peterson (1:51:11.500)
the point of the lecture.
Lex Fridman (1:51:13.700)
And the worship is the direction of attention towards it.
Lex Fridman (1:51:16.660)
And it's union, it's communion
Lex Fridman (1:51:18.260)
because everyone's doing it at the same time.
Lex Fridman (1:51:20.660)
And so, I mean, there's not much difference
Lex Fridman (1:51:23.300)
between a lecture theater and a church in that regard, right?
Jordan Peterson (1:51:25.700)
It's the same fundamental layout and structure.
Lex Fridman (1:51:28.460)
And they're very integrally associated with one another.
Jordan Peterson (1:51:30.980)
One really grew out of the other,
Lex Fridman (1:51:32.260)
the lecture theater grew out of the church.
Lex Fridman (1:51:34.380)
So it's perfectly reasonable
Lex Fridman (1:51:36.340)
to be thinking about it in those terms.
Lex Fridman (1:51:38.580)
And so, and then, okay, so after the lecture,
Lex Fridman (1:51:42.180)
we play a piece of music that is a piece of music
Jordan Peterson (1:51:45.580)
that I've been producing with some musicians
Lex Fridman (1:51:47.980)
for a couple of books I'm gonna release in the fall.
Jordan Peterson (1:51:51.020)
Terrible books, ABC of childhood tragedy,
Lex Fridman (1:51:53.780)
they're called dark, dark books,
Jordan Peterson (1:51:58.500)
dark and comical books, terrible books,
Lex Fridman (1:52:03.180)
heartbreaking illustrations.
Jordan Peterson (1:52:06.340)
We've set them to music.
Lex Fridman (1:52:07.620)
And so we play a piece from that.
Lex Fridman (1:52:09.420)
And then afterwards, I usually meet about 150 people
Lex Fridman (1:52:13.620)
to have photographs.
Lex Fridman (1:52:14.580)
And so each of those is a little.
Lex Fridman (1:52:17.220)
Is there a little sparkle of human connection?
Jordan Peterson (1:52:20.020)
A lot, a lot, it's very intense.
Lex Fridman (1:52:24.700)
10 seconds with every person you think,
Lex Fridman (1:52:27.060)
how can 10 seconds be intense?
Lex Fridman (1:52:28.660)
It's like, pay enough attention.
Jordan Peterson (1:52:31.900)
It gets intense real quick.
Lex Fridman (1:52:33.300)
Does it break your heart to say goodbye so many times?
Jordan Peterson (1:52:36.940)
It's like being in a wedding lineup,
Lex Fridman (1:52:39.260)
at a wedding that you wanna be at.
Lex Fridman (1:52:41.220)
And everybody's dressed up.
Lex Fridman (1:52:42.820)
And that's so weird,
Jordan Peterson (1:52:43.860)
because I bought these expensive suits
Lex Fridman (1:52:45.340)
when I went on tour and it broke my heart
Jordan Peterson (1:52:47.700)
because I spent so much money on them.
Lex Fridman (1:52:48.980)
I thought, God, that's completely unconscionable.
Jordan Peterson (1:52:51.420)
I thought, no way, man, I'm in this 100%.
Lex Fridman (1:52:55.500)
And so I'm gonna dress with respect.
Lex Fridman (1:52:58.820)
And like 60% of the audience comes in
Lex Fridman (1:53:04.420)
two or three piece suits.
Jordan Peterson (1:53:05.940)
They're all dressed up.
Lex Fridman (1:53:07.500)
Then there's this line to greet me
Lex Fridman (1:53:09.300)
and they're all happy to see me.
Lex Fridman (1:53:11.260)
That's not so hard to take.
Lex Fridman (1:53:13.260)
You know, although it is in a sense, right?
Lex Fridman (1:53:15.120)
Because normal interactions are pretty shallow.
Lex Fridman (1:53:19.060)
And you think, I don't want shallow interactions.
Lex Fridman (1:53:21.060)
It's like, yes, you do most of the time.
Jordan Peterson (1:53:22.860)
Yeah, it's intense.
Lex Fridman (1:53:24.540)
It's very intense.
Lex Fridman (1:53:25.740)
And I don't know if you have.
Lex Fridman (1:53:26.580)
But you've had a taste of this, no doubt,
Jordan Peterson (1:53:28.340)
because people recognize you.
Lex Fridman (1:53:29.180)
Yeah, but I also have,
Jordan Peterson (1:53:31.300)
when a person recognizes me and they come with the love
Lex Fridman (1:53:34.540)
and they're often brilliant people,
Jordan Peterson (1:53:37.380)
one of the thoughts I have to deal with,
Lex Fridman (1:53:39.860)
one of the dragons in my own mind is, you know,
Jordan Peterson (1:53:43.020)
thinking that I don't deserve that kind of attention.
Lex Fridman (1:53:45.860)
And so.
Jordan Peterson (1:53:46.700)
Well, you probably don't.
Lex Fridman (1:53:48.220)
Right.
Lex Fridman (1:53:49.060)
But maybe you could.
Lex Fridman (1:53:50.300)
So it's a burden in that I have to step up
Jordan Peterson (1:53:53.060)
to be the kind of person that deserves that,
Lex Fridman (1:53:56.260)
not deserves that, but in part deserves
Jordan Peterson (1:53:58.200)
that kind of attention.
Lex Fridman (1:53:59.140)
And that's like, holy shit.
Jordan Peterson (1:54:01.300)
It's crucially important too,
Lex Fridman (1:54:02.580)
because if someone comes up to you in an airport
Lex Fridman (1:54:05.220)
and they know who you are and they're brave enough
Lex Fridman (1:54:08.100)
to admire you or who you are attempting to be
Lex Fridman (1:54:11.260)
and you make a mistake, they will never forget it.
Lex Fridman (1:54:16.780)
So it's a high stakes enterprise.
Lex Fridman (1:54:19.380)
And the flip side of that, especially with young people,
Lex Fridman (1:54:23.180)
a few words you can say can change the direction
Jordan Peterson (1:54:25.460)
of their life.
Lex Fridman (1:54:26.420)
One way or another.
Lex Fridman (1:54:28.180)
And so I really have to watch this too in airports
Lex Fridman (1:54:30.300)
because I do not like airports.
Jordan Peterson (1:54:31.700)
I do not like the creeping totalitarianism in airports.
Lex Fridman (1:54:34.620)
They've always bothered me.
Jordan Peterson (1:54:36.380)
They really bother me.
Lex Fridman (1:54:38.380)
And I'm an unpleasant travel companion
Jordan Peterson (1:54:40.300)
for my wife sometimes because of that.
Lex Fridman (1:54:42.020)
Although I think we've worked that out.
Jordan Peterson (1:54:43.540)
Thank God, cause we're doing a lot of traveling.
Lex Fridman (1:54:46.420)
But most of the security guards and the border personnel,
Jordan Peterson (1:54:50.900)
all those people, they know me.
Lex Fridman (1:54:52.340)
And as a general rule, they're positively predisposed to me.
Lex Fridman (1:54:55.660)
And so if I'm peevish or irritable,
Lex Fridman (1:54:57.740)
then well, that's not good.
Jordan Peterson (1:55:00.940)
It's not good.
Lex Fridman (1:55:02.100)
And so that's a tight rope to walk to
Jordan Peterson (1:55:03.860)
because I do not like that creeping totalitarianism.
Lex Fridman (1:55:07.180)
But by the same token, if you're just one of the crowd,
Jordan Peterson (1:55:12.180)
just, sometimes it's good just to be one of the crowd
Lex Fridman (1:55:16.940)
and then you're a little irritable
Lex Fridman (1:55:18.180)
and people can just brush that off.
Lex Fridman (1:55:19.700)
But if you're someone they have dared to open their heart to,
Jordan Peterson (1:55:24.860)
cause that's what admiration is, and then you betray that,
Lex Fridman (1:55:30.660)
then that's a real, they'll never forget it.
Lex Fridman (1:55:34.100)
And then they'll tell everyone too.
Lex Fridman (1:55:36.500)
So it takes a lot of alertness.
Lex Fridman (1:55:39.540)
And so Tammy and our life has got complicated
Lex Fridman (1:55:41.740)
because in Toronto, for example,
Jordan Peterson (1:55:43.860)
we can't really just go for a walk.
Lex Fridman (1:55:46.500)
It's always a high drama production
Jordan Peterson (1:55:49.180)
cause always people come up and they have some
Lex Fridman (1:55:52.580)
heart rending story to tell.
Lex Fridman (1:55:55.060)
And I'm not being cynical about that.
Lex Fridman (1:55:57.140)
Yes.
Jordan Peterson (1:55:58.380)
It's a hard thing to bear because people don't do that.
Lex Fridman (1:56:02.740)
They don't just open themselves up to you like that
Lex Fridman (1:56:04.900)
and share the tragedy of their life.
Lex Fridman (1:56:09.660)
But that's an everyday occurrence.
Lex Fridman (1:56:11.660)
And so when we go up to our cottage,
Lex Fridman (1:56:13.580)
which is out of the city, it's a relief,
Jordan Peterson (1:56:17.300)
because as wonderful as that is,
Lex Fridman (1:56:21.420)
like it's a weird, I have a weird life
Jordan Peterson (1:56:23.140)
because everywhere I go, it's very weird.
Lex Fridman (1:56:25.860)
It's like I'm surrounded by old friends
Jordan Peterson (1:56:28.340)
because I walk down the street in any city now virtually
Lex Fridman (1:56:31.580)
and people say, hello, Dr. Peterson, so nice to see you.
Jordan Peterson (1:56:34.660)
Or they say better things than that.
Lex Fridman (1:56:36.260)
Very rarely bad things.
Jordan Peterson (1:56:38.060)
One experience in 5,000, maybe very rare,
Lex Fridman (1:56:42.060)
although you don't forget those either,
Lex Fridman (1:56:44.220)
but it's very strange.
Lex Fridman (1:56:48.020)
So.
Lex Fridman (1:56:48.860)
And there's an intimacy, they know you well.
Lex Fridman (1:56:50.860)
And because they leap into,
Jordan Peterson (1:56:55.540)
they avoid the small talk often.
Lex Fridman (1:56:57.540)
They leap into familiarity.
Jordan Peterson (1:56:58.740)
It really is like it's an old friend
Lex Fridman (1:57:00.900)
and it feels like that.
Jordan Peterson (1:57:01.860)
For me personally, the experiences, the goodbye hurts
Lex Fridman (1:57:06.460)
because there's a sense
Jordan Peterson (1:57:09.860)
where you're never gonna see that friend again.
Lex Fridman (1:57:11.580)
Right.
Lex Fridman (1:57:12.700)
Yeah, that's a strange thing, eh?
Lex Fridman (1:57:14.380)
So to me, a lot of it just feels like goodbyes.
Jordan Peterson (1:57:19.380)
Mm hmm.
Lex Fridman (1:57:20.740)
It is.
Jordan Peterson (1:57:22.500)
You're right about that.
Lex Fridman (1:57:23.340)
And I mean, that's, I suppose, in some sense,
Jordan Peterson (1:57:26.660)
part of the pain of opening yourself up to people
Lex Fridman (1:57:29.500)
because they also, Tammy has been struck particularly.
Jordan Peterson (1:57:33.020)
She said, I really never knew what men were like.
Lex Fridman (1:57:35.380)
I said, well, what do you mean?
Jordan Peterson (1:57:36.860)
She said, I cannot believe how polite the men are
Lex Fridman (1:57:41.060)
when they come and talk to you
Jordan Peterson (1:57:42.620)
because it's always the same.
Lex Fridman (1:57:43.900)
The pattern's very similar.
Jordan Peterson (1:57:45.580)
The person comes up, they're mostly men,
Lex Fridman (1:57:47.140)
not always, but mostly.
Lex Fridman (1:57:49.140)
And they're tentative and they're very polite,
Lex Fridman (1:57:51.660)
very, very polite.
Lex Fridman (1:57:53.500)
And they say, I hope I'm not bothering you.
Lex Fridman (1:57:55.540)
Do you mind, you know, do you mind that I say
Lex Fridman (1:57:57.460)
that they're not bothering me?
Lex Fridman (1:58:00.220)
And I'm doing everything I can to not be the guy
Jordan Peterson (1:58:03.220)
who's bothered by that.
Lex Fridman (1:58:04.420)
It's like, who do you think you are?
Jordan Peterson (1:58:05.780)
Yeah, yes.
Lex Fridman (1:58:07.460)
You're the guy that what is famous and now is above that?
Jordan Peterson (1:58:12.100)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:58:13.220)
You don't wanna be that guy.
Lex Fridman (1:58:15.260)
So you wanna be grateful all the time
Lex Fridman (1:58:17.740)
when people open up like that.
Lex Fridman (1:58:20.540)
And so you gotta be alert and on point
Lex Fridman (1:58:23.260)
to do that properly, like right away.
Jordan Peterson (1:58:25.180)
Because for you, it's five seconds or 10 seconds
Lex Fridman (1:58:28.620)
or 20 seconds, whatever it is.
Lex Fridman (1:58:30.140)
But for them, they've opened up.
Lex Fridman (1:58:33.980)
And so you can really nail them if you're foolish.
Lex Fridman (1:58:37.540)
After the 150 people, how do you come down from that?
Lex Fridman (1:58:40.660)
How do you find yourself again?
Jordan Peterson (1:58:44.660)
Well, that was when I got caught in Twitter traps,
Lex Fridman (1:58:48.420)
cause I'm so burnt out by then from the talk
Lex Fridman (1:58:52.020)
and the audience interactions and the whole day.
Lex Fridman (1:58:56.220)
Cause it's a new city, it's a new hotel,
Jordan Peterson (1:58:58.740)
it's a new 5,000 people, it's a new book chapter,
Lex Fridman (1:59:02.260)
it's a whole new horizon of ideas.
Lex Fridman (1:59:04.180)
And it's off to another city the next day.
Lex Fridman (1:59:06.740)
I'm so burnt out by then that I'm not as good
Jordan Peterson (1:59:10.740)
at controlling my impulses as I might be.
Lex Fridman (1:59:13.500)
And Twitter was a real catastrophe for that
Jordan Peterson (1:59:15.340)
cause it would hook me and then I couldn't,
Lex Fridman (1:59:17.500)
like I used to, when I was working on my book a lot,
Jordan Peterson (1:59:20.820)
I used to call Tammy and say, look,
Lex Fridman (1:59:22.620)
you have to come and get me, I can't stop.
Jordan Peterson (1:59:25.420)
I can't stop, I got tired and then I kind of,
Lex Fridman (1:59:28.420)
cause it's part of a kind of hypomanic focus.
Jordan Peterson (1:59:31.700)
I couldn't quit, it's like, oh no, I'm still writing.
Lex Fridman (1:59:34.700)
I need to get away from this, but I couldn't stop.
Lex Fridman (1:59:37.300)
And so it's better to read something, a book.
Lex Fridman (1:59:44.980)
Fiction, nonfiction.
Jordan Peterson (1:59:46.100)
Fiction, Stephen King.
Lex Fridman (1:59:48.500)
I was reading a lot of Stephen King
Jordan Peterson (1:59:50.300)
when I was on tour last time, that was good.
Lex Fridman (1:59:52.420)
I like Stephen King a lot.
Jordan Peterson (1:59:53.260)
It's a great narrative.
Lex Fridman (1:59:54.580)
Great, and great characterization, you know?
Jordan Peterson (1:59:57.780)
So, and there's a familiarity about Stephen King's
Lex Fridman (20:01.700)
without God in this complicated big definition
Jordan Peterson (20:06.180)
we're talking about, there's no humility.
Lex Fridman (20:10.460)
Or it's less likely to be, or rather science
Jordan Peterson (20:16.500)
can err in taking a trajectory away from humility.
Lex Fridman (20:20.740)
Well.
Jordan Peterson (20:21.340)
Without something much more powerful
Lex Fridman (20:23.980)
than an individual human.
Jordan Peterson (20:26.100)
Yeah, well then and we know, you know,
Lex Fridman (20:27.820)
the Frankenstein story comes out of that instantly.
Lex Fridman (20:30.420)
And that's a good story for the current times.
Lex Fridman (20:33.700)
It's like you're playing around with making new life.
Jordan Peterson (20:38.820)
You bloody well better make sure you have your arrows pointed up.
Lex Fridman (20:43.340)
And it's interesting because you said science has an ethic to it.
Jordan Peterson (20:49.340)
I think it's embedded in an ethic.
Lex Fridman (20:51.300)
Well, there's a, you know, science is a big word.
Lex Fridman (20:55.740)
And it includes a lot of disciplines
Lex Fridman (20:57.220)
that have different traditions.
Lex Fridman (20:58.500)
So biology, chemistry, genetics, physics,
Lex Fridman (21:04.180)
those are very different communities.
Lex Fridman (21:06.620)
And I think biology, especially when
Lex Fridman (21:09.020)
you get closer and closer to medicine and to the human body,
Jordan Peterson (21:12.140)
does have a very serious, first of all,
Lex Fridman (21:14.460)
has a history with Nazi Germany of being abused
Lex Fridman (21:16.740)
and all those kinds of things.
Lex Fridman (21:18.220)
But it has a history of taking this stuff seriously.
Lex Fridman (21:21.060)
What doesn't have a history of taking this stuff seriously
Lex Fridman (21:23.620)
is robotics and artificial intelligence,
Jordan Peterson (21:25.700)
which is really interesting.
Lex Fridman (21:27.300)
Because you don't, you know, you called me a scientist.
Lex Fridman (21:32.260)
And I would like to wear that label proudly,
Lex Fridman (21:34.900)
but often people don't think of computer science as a science.
Lex Fridman (21:38.820)
But nevertheless, it will be, I think,
Lex Fridman (21:41.500)
the science of one of the major scientific fields
Jordan Peterson (21:44.820)
of the 21st century.
Lex Fridman (21:46.260)
And you should take that very seriously.
Jordan Peterson (21:48.660)
Oftentimes when people build robots or AI systems,
Lex Fridman (21:52.540)
they think of them as toys to tinker with.
Lex Fridman (21:57.180)
Oh, isn't this cool?
Lex Fridman (21:59.180)
And I feel this too.
Lex Fridman (22:00.420)
Isn't this cool?
Lex Fridman (22:01.260)
It is cool.
Jordan Peterson (22:02.420)
But, you know, at a certain moment you might,
Lex Fridman (22:05.820)
isn't this nuclear explosion cool?
Jordan Peterson (22:09.340)
Because it is.
Lex Fridman (22:10.380)
Or birth control pill cool.
Jordan Peterson (22:12.140)
It's like, or transistor cool.
Lex Fridman (22:14.900)
Yeah.
Jordan Peterson (22:15.620)
Well, the other thing too, and this is a weird problem
Lex Fridman (22:19.220)
in some sense, the robotics engineer types,
Lex Fridman (22:22.380)
they're thing people, right?
Lex Fridman (22:23.940)
I mean, the big classes of interest
Jordan Peterson (22:25.980)
are interest in things versus interest in people.
Lex Fridman (22:28.700)
Some of my best friends are thing people.
Jordan Peterson (22:30.700)
Yeah, right.
Lex Fridman (22:31.380)
And thing people are very, very clear, logical thinkers.
Lex Fridman (22:36.940)
And they're very outcome oriented and practical.
Lex Fridman (22:41.060)
Now, and that's all good.
Jordan Peterson (22:43.220)
That makes the machinery and keeps it functioning.
Lex Fridman (22:45.980)
But there's a human side of the equation.
Lex Fridman (22:49.260)
And you get the extreme thing people,
Lex Fridman (22:52.500)
and you think, yeah, well, what about the human here?
Lex Fridman (22:55.220)
And when we're talking about, we've
Lex Fridman (22:58.260)
been talking about the necessity of having
Jordan Peterson (23:00.020)
a technological enterprise embedded in an ethic.
Lex Fridman (23:03.340)
And you can ignore that, like most of the time, right?
Jordan Peterson (23:06.300)
You can ignore the overall ethic in some sense
Lex Fridman (23:09.420)
when you're toying around with your toys.
Lex Fridman (23:11.820)
But when you're building an artificial intelligence,
Lex Fridman (23:14.020)
it's like, well, that's not a toy.
Jordan Peterson (23:19.060)
That might be.
Lex Fridman (23:20.500)
Toy becomes the monster very quickly.
Jordan Peterson (23:22.500)
Yeah, yes, yes.
Lex Fridman (23:23.860)
And this is a whole new kind of monster.
Lex Fridman (23:26.860)
And maybe it's already here.
Lex Fridman (23:33.220)
Yes, and you notice how many of those things
Jordan Peterson (23:35.060)
you can no longer turn off.
Lex Fridman (23:38.980)
And what is it with you engineers and your inability
Lex Fridman (23:41.180)
to put off switches on things now?
Lex Fridman (23:44.620)
It's like, I have to hold this for five seconds for it
Jordan Peterson (23:47.100)
to shut off.
Lex Fridman (23:48.060)
Or I can't figure it.
Jordan Peterson (23:48.900)
I just want to shut it off.
Lex Fridman (23:50.660)
Click, off.
Jordan Peterson (23:51.780)
Well, what is it with you humans that
Lex Fridman (23:53.980)
don't put off switches on other humans?
Jordan Peterson (23:56.980)
Because there's a magic to the thing that you notice.
Lex Fridman (23:59.500)
And it hurts for both you and perhaps one day the thing
Jordan Peterson (24:03.860)
itself to turn it off.
Lex Fridman (24:05.860)
And so you have to be very careful as an engineer
Jordan Peterson (24:08.180)
adding off switches to things.
Lex Fridman (24:11.300)
I think it's a feature, not a bug, the off switch.
Jordan Peterson (24:14.460)
The off switch gives a deadline to us humans,
Lex Fridman (24:17.020)
to systems of existence.
Jordan Peterson (24:19.740)
It makes you, you know, death is the thing that really
Lex Fridman (24:23.980)
brings clarity to life.
Lex Fridman (24:25.980)
And I do think.
Lex Fridman (24:27.060)
Hence the flaming swords.
Jordan Peterson (24:28.820)
The flaming sword.
Lex Fridman (24:29.620)
I do like your view of the flame, the bush,
Lex Fridman (24:33.260)
and perhaps the sword as a thing of transformation.
Lex Fridman (24:36.700)
It's also a transformation that kind of consumes
Jordan Peterson (24:40.260)
the thing in the process.
Lex Fridman (24:41.380)
Well, it depends on how much of the thing is chaff.
Jordan Peterson (24:44.300)
You know, this is why you can't touch the Ark of the Covenant,
Lex Fridman (24:47.780)
for example.
Lex Fridman (24:48.660)
And this is why people can have very bad psychedelic trips.
Lex Fridman (24:52.020)
It's like if you're 95% dead wood
Lex Fridman (24:54.940)
and you get too close to the flame,
Lex Fridman (24:57.140)
the 5% that's left might not be able to make it.
Lex Fridman (25:03.260)
So you think it's all chaff.
Lex Fridman (25:04.660)
But I think there is some aspect of destruction
Jordan Peterson (25:06.980)
that is the old Bukowski line of do what you love
Lex Fridman (25:12.540)
and let it kill you.
Lex Fridman (25:13.700)
Don't you think that destruction is part of?
Lex Fridman (25:16.540)
That's humility.
Jordan Peterson (25:18.180)
That's humility.
Lex Fridman (25:19.020)
You bet.
Jordan Peterson (25:19.620)
You bet.
Lex Fridman (25:20.140)
You bet.
Jordan Peterson (25:20.660)
It's like invite in the judgment.
Lex Fridman (25:23.140)
Invite in the judgment because maybe you
Jordan Peterson (25:24.700)
can die a little bit instead of dying completely.
Lex Fridman (25:27.900)
I think it's Alfred North Whitehead.
Jordan Peterson (25:30.220)
We can let our ideas die instead of us.
Lex Fridman (25:33.380)
We can have these partial personalities
Jordan Peterson (25:35.700)
that we can burn off.
Lex Fridman (25:37.460)
And we can let them go before they become tyrannical pharaohs
Lex Fridman (25:41.020)
and we lose everything.
Lex Fridman (25:43.380)
And so, yeah, there's this optimal bite of death.
Lex Fridman (25:46.420)
And who knows what it would mean to optimize that?
Lex Fridman (25:49.620)
Like what if it was possible that if you died enough
Lex Fridman (25:52.500)
all the time that you could continue to live?
Lex Fridman (25:56.220)
And the thing is we already know that biologically
Jordan Peterson (25:58.300)
because if you don't die properly all the time,
Lex Fridman (26:02.500)
well, it's cancerous outgrowths and it's
Jordan Peterson (26:05.660)
a very fine balance between productivity
Lex Fridman (26:09.660)
on the biological front and the culling of that, right?
Jordan Peterson (26:14.060)
Life is a real balance between growth and death.
Lex Fridman (26:17.820)
And so what would happen if you got that balance right?
Lex Fridman (26:20.340)
Well, we kind of know, right?
Lex Fridman (26:21.540)
Because if you live your life properly, so to speak,
Lex Fridman (26:26.100)
and you're humble enough to let your stupidity die
Lex Fridman (26:28.780)
before it takes you out, you will live longer.
Jordan Peterson (26:32.060)
That's just a fact.
Lex Fridman (26:34.180)
Well, but then what's the ultimate extension of that?
Lex Fridman (26:37.140)
And the answer is we don't know.
Lex Fridman (26:38.740)
We have no idea.
Jordan Peterson (26:40.180)
Well, let me ask you a difficult question because.
Lex Fridman (26:42.980)
As opposed to the easy ones that you've been asking so far.
Jordan Peterson (26:45.700)
Well, Dostoevsky is always just a warm up.
Lex Fridman (26:50.900)
So if death every single day is the way
Jordan Peterson (26:54.660)
to progress through life, you have become quite famous.
Lex Fridman (26:58.660)
Death and hell.
Jordan Peterson (27:00.180)
Death and hell.
Lex Fridman (27:00.860)
Yeah, yeah.
Jordan Peterson (27:01.380)
Because you don't want to forget the hell part.
Lex Fridman (27:04.620)
Do you worry that your fame traps you into the person
Lex Fridman (27:10.820)
that you were before?
Lex Fridman (27:12.220)
Yeah, well, Elvis became an Elvis impersonator
Jordan Peterson (27:15.260)
by the time he died.
Lex Fridman (27:16.460)
Yeah, do you fear that you have become a Jordan Peterson
Lex Fridman (27:19.180)
impersonator?
Lex Fridman (27:20.660)
Do you fear of, in some part, becoming the famous suit
Jordan Peterson (27:25.860)
wearing brilliant Jordan Peterson, the certainty in the pursuit
Lex Fridman (27:31.420)
of truth, always right?
Jordan Peterson (27:34.860)
I think I worry about it more than anything else.
Lex Fridman (27:36.940)
I hope.
Jordan Peterson (27:38.060)
I hope I do.
Lex Fridman (27:39.220)
I better.
Jordan Peterson (27:39.940)
Has fame, to some degree, when you look at yourself
Lex Fridman (27:43.100)
in the mirror, in the quiet of your mind, has it corrupted you?
Jordan Peterson (27:47.700)
No doubt, in some regard.
Lex Fridman (27:50.180)
I mean, it's a very difficult thing
Jordan Peterson (27:51.660)
to avoid because things change around you.
Lex Fridman (27:57.100)
People are much more likely to do what you ask, for example.
Lex Fridman (28:01.860)
And so that's a danger because one
Lex Fridman (28:03.860)
of the things that keeps you dying properly
Jordan Peterson (28:05.980)
is that people push back against you optimally.
Lex Fridman (28:08.820)
This is why so many celebrities spiral out of control,
Jordan Peterson (28:11.540)
especially the tyrannical types that, say, run countries.
Lex Fridman (28:15.180)
Everyone around them stops saying,
Jordan Peterson (28:17.380)
yeah, you're deviating a little bit there.
Lex Fridman (28:20.140)
They laugh at all their jokes.
Jordan Peterson (28:21.540)
They open all their doors.
Lex Fridman (28:22.780)
They always want something from them.
Jordan Peterson (28:25.300)
The red carpet's always rolled out.
Lex Fridman (28:27.300)
It's like, well, you think, wouldn't that be lovely?
Jordan Peterson (28:29.820)
It's, well, not if the red carpet is rolled out to you
Lex Fridman (28:34.020)
while you're on your way to perdition.
Jordan Peterson (28:36.300)
That's not a good deal.
Lex Fridman (28:37.860)
You just get there more efficiently.
Lex Fridman (28:40.060)
And so one of the things that I've tried to learn to manage
Lex Fridman (28:43.180)
is to have people around me all the time who are critics, who
Jordan Peterson (28:48.300)
are saying, yeah, I could have done that better.
Lex Fridman (28:50.660)
And you're a little too harsh there.
Lex Fridman (28:52.820)
And you're alienating people unnecessarily there.
Lex Fridman (28:55.620)
And you should have done some more background work there.
Lex Fridman (28:58.940)
And I think the responsibility attendant upon that
Lex Fridman (29:02.140)
increases as your influence increases.
Lex Fridman (29:04.700)
And as your influence increases, then that
Lex Fridman (29:08.900)
becomes a lot of responsibility.
Lex Fridman (29:12.340)
So and then maybe have an off day.
Lex Fridman (29:14.820)
And well, here's an example.
Jordan Peterson (29:17.140)
I've been writing some columns lately
Lex Fridman (29:19.260)
about things that perturb me, like the forthcoming famine,
Jordan Peterson (29:24.180)
for example.
Lex Fridman (29:25.460)
And it's hard to take those problems on.
Jordan Peterson (29:30.980)
It's difficult to take those problems on in a serious
Lex Fridman (29:34.020)
manner, and it's frightening.
Lex Fridman (29:35.380)
And it would be easier just to go up to the cottage
Lex Fridman (29:37.500)
with my wife and go out on the lake and watch the sunset.
Lex Fridman (29:40.740)
And so I'm tempted to draw on anger as a motivating energy
Lex Fridman (29:48.100)
to help me overcome the resistance to doing this.
Lex Fridman (29:52.020)
But then that makes me more harsh and judgmental
Lex Fridman (29:54.620)
in my tone when I'm reading such things, for example,
Jordan Peterson (29:57.940)
on YouTube than might be optimal.
Lex Fridman (2:00:02.220)
writing too that it's, he writes about people you know.
Lex Fridman (2:00:05.340)
And so I really found that a relief.
Lex Fridman (2:00:08.140)
And so that was useful.
Lex Fridman (2:00:10.300)
And that in order to tolerate this, let's say,
Lex Fridman (2:00:12.940)
or to be able to sustain it,
Jordan Peterson (2:00:15.140)
well, let's take a lot of negotiation
Lex Fridman (2:00:16.740)
on the part of Tammy and I,
Jordan Peterson (2:00:17.860)
because she's dragged into this and, you know,
Lex Fridman (2:00:21.420)
her life is part of this, whatever this is.
Lex Fridman (2:00:25.100)
And she's had to find her way and has, for example,
Lex Fridman (2:00:29.060)
now she has a different hotel room than me when we travel.
Lex Fridman (2:00:32.380)
And she found that she didn't want to be on the tour
Lex Fridman (2:00:35.380)
this spring, and I was ill again for part of it.
Lex Fridman (2:00:37.940)
And that made it complicated,
Lex Fridman (2:00:39.060)
but she went away back home and she came back
Lex Fridman (2:00:42.180)
and she said, and she was nervous about,
Lex Fridman (2:00:43.420)
she said, I think I need my own room.
Lex Fridman (2:00:45.420)
And part of me was not happy with that.
Lex Fridman (2:00:47.140)
It's like, what do you mean you need your,
Lex Fridman (2:00:48.500)
like, are we not married anymore?
Lex Fridman (2:00:50.340)
It's like, you need your own room?
Lex Fridman (2:00:52.380)
And she said, well, you know, I can't,
Lex Fridman (2:00:54.860)
she has to do exercises because she was really sick
Lex Fridman (2:00:57.300)
and she has to keep herself in shape.
Lex Fridman (2:00:59.860)
And she has to have some time to do that.
Jordan Peterson (2:01:02.220)
She does a lot of prayer and meditation
Lex Fridman (2:01:03.780)
and she needs the time.
Lex Fridman (2:01:04.700)
And she has her own podcast, which is going quite well.
Lex Fridman (2:01:06.860)
And she needs the time and I trust her.
Lex Fridman (2:01:09.660)
And she said, well, I need this in order to continue.
Lex Fridman (2:01:12.420)
And I thought, well, okay,
Jordan Peterson (2:01:15.180)
if you need this in order to continue, yes.
Lex Fridman (2:01:19.020)
Because she went away and didn't say, well,
Jordan Peterson (2:01:20.980)
I don't want to be on the tour.
Lex Fridman (2:01:22.540)
I don't want to do this anymore.
Jordan Peterson (2:01:23.500)
She went away and prayed, let's say,
Lex Fridman (2:01:25.940)
how can I continue to do this?
Lex Fridman (2:01:28.740)
And that was the answer.
Lex Fridman (2:01:30.420)
And so she has her own hotel room.
Lex Fridman (2:01:32.740)
And that was a really good decision on her part.
Lex Fridman (2:01:36.100)
And she's very good and getting better all the time
Jordan Peterson (2:01:39.700)
at figuring out what has to happen for her
Lex Fridman (2:01:43.820)
to make this sustainable.
Lex Fridman (2:01:45.180)
And all that's been is a plus
Lex Fridman (2:01:48.380)
because I don't want to travel without her.
Lex Fridman (2:01:51.020)
And I don't want her life to be miserable.
Lex Fridman (2:01:53.580)
And I want her to be fully on board.
Lex Fridman (2:01:55.540)
And so she has to be properly selfish.
Lex Fridman (2:01:58.340)
Like everyone does in a relationship.
Lex Fridman (2:02:00.780)
And you have to, not just that,
Lex Fridman (2:02:02.900)
this is a weird thing that you're doing.
Lex Fridman (2:02:05.260)
And you have to, both you and her have to figure out
Lex Fridman (2:02:08.180)
how to manage this very intense intellectual,
Jordan Peterson (2:02:13.020)
social journey.
Lex Fridman (2:02:13.860)
Well, there's another element to it too
Jordan Peterson (2:02:15.180)
that I didn't tell you about.
Lex Fridman (2:02:16.340)
So that was a typical day, but it's missing a big component
Jordan Peterson (2:02:19.460)
because usually we also have a dinner
Lex Fridman (2:02:22.100)
with like 30 cultural representatives, I suppose,
Jordan Peterson (2:02:26.780)
10 to 30 from each country.
Lex Fridman (2:02:28.700)
Cause I have a network of people who have networks
Jordan Peterson (2:02:32.100)
who are setting me up with key decision makers
Lex Fridman (2:02:35.780)
in each country.
Lex Fridman (2:02:37.140)
And so then we have like an hour and a half of that.
Lex Fridman (2:02:39.540)
Now, sometimes that's on a day when I don't have a talk,
Lex Fridman (2:02:42.420)
but sometimes the talks are back to back.
Lex Fridman (2:02:44.860)
And so she also has to manage that and to be gracious.
Lex Fridman (2:02:49.700)
And then people are showing us exciting things
Lex Fridman (2:02:51.700)
and tours in the cities and which is all,
Jordan Peterson (2:02:53.940)
like it's a surf fight of wonderful.
Lex Fridman (2:02:56.380)
Yes, exactly.
Lex Fridman (2:02:57.340)
But it's still, yeah, you have to be there for it.
Lex Fridman (2:03:00.220)
You have to be present for it mentally.
Jordan Peterson (2:03:02.140)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:03:02.980)
As a curious mind, as an intellectual mind.
Lex Fridman (2:03:04.980)
How do you get to sleep?
Lex Fridman (2:03:07.820)
Fortunately, that is almost never a problem.
Jordan Peterson (2:03:11.820)
Even when I was unbelievably ill for about three years.
Lex Fridman (2:03:17.220)
I thought about that a lot too, you know,
Jordan Peterson (2:03:18.700)
that I didn't do a really good job of explaining that
Lex Fridman (2:03:21.380)
while I was ill because it appeared in some sense
Jordan Peterson (2:03:24.760)
that the reason I was ill was because I was taking
Lex Fridman (2:03:26.880)
benzodiazepines, but that isn't why I was ill.
Lex Fridman (2:03:30.860)
And then I took them and very low dose.
Lex Fridman (2:03:33.580)
And I took that for a long time and it helped
Jordan Peterson (2:03:36.140)
whatever was wrong with me.
Lex Fridman (2:03:37.300)
And it looks like it was an allergy
Jordan Peterson (2:03:39.380)
or maybe multiple allergies.
Lex Fridman (2:03:42.040)
And then that stopped working.
Lex Fridman (2:03:45.000)
And so I took a little bit more for about a month
Lex Fridman (2:03:47.860)
and that made it way worse.
Lex Fridman (2:03:48.980)
And so then I cut back a lot and then,
Lex Fridman (2:03:52.220)
then things really got out of hand.
Jordan Peterson (2:03:54.300)
So.
Lex Fridman (2:03:55.140)
So there was a deeper thing in the Benzo.
Jordan Peterson (2:03:57.700)
Oh yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:03:58.540)
What can you put words to?
Jordan Peterson (2:04:00.180)
Well, I had a lot of immune, well, my daughter,
Lex Fridman (2:04:02.220)
as everyone knows, has a very reactive immune system.
Lex Fridman (2:04:06.040)
And Tammy has three immunological conditions,
Lex Fridman (2:04:09.800)
each of them quite serious.
Lex Fridman (2:04:11.420)
And I had psoriasis and peripheral uveitis,
Lex Fridman (2:04:14.360)
which is an autoimmune condition and alopecia areata
Lex Fridman (2:04:17.740)
and chronic gum disease, all of which appeared
Lex Fridman (2:04:21.460)
to be allergy related.
Lex Fridman (2:04:22.980)
And so Michaela seems to have got all of that.
Lex Fridman (2:04:25.660)
And so that, and that I think was at the bottom of,
Jordan Peterson (2:04:28.420)
cause I also had this proclivity to depression
Lex Fridman (2:04:30.540)
that was part of my family history.
Lex Fridman (2:04:32.840)
But I think that was all immunological
Lex Fridman (2:04:34.700)
as far as I can tell.
Lex Fridman (2:04:35.540)
So one of the things that's happened to me,
Lex Fridman (2:04:37.780)
I always noticed I really couldn't breathe.
Jordan Peterson (2:04:40.460)
Like I could breathe about one fifth
Lex Fridman (2:04:42.220)
as much as I sometimes could.
Lex Fridman (2:04:46.500)
And so I was always short of breath.
Lex Fridman (2:04:48.420)
And it looks like what that was perhaps was
Jordan Peterson (2:04:53.060)
I was always on the border of an anaphylactic reaction,
Lex Fridman (2:04:56.380)
which is not pleasant.
Lex Fridman (2:04:58.740)
And that's hypersympathetic activation,
Lex Fridman (2:05:01.140)
no parasympathetic activation.
Jordan Peterson (2:05:03.140)
I couldn't relax at all.
Lex Fridman (2:05:05.380)
That's an immunological response.
Jordan Peterson (2:05:07.380)
Allergic response, yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:05:09.980)
So anyways, that was what seemed,
Jordan Peterson (2:05:11.580)
now this, I don't like to talk about this much
Lex Fridman (2:05:14.420)
cause it's so bloody radical
Lex Fridman (2:05:15.700)
and I don't like to propagate it,
Lex Fridman (2:05:17.220)
but this diet seems to have stopped all of that.
Jordan Peterson (2:05:19.580)
I don't have psoriasis, all of the patches have gone.
Lex Fridman (2:05:22.580)
My gum disease, which is incurable,
Jordan Peterson (2:05:25.420)
I had multiple surgeries to deal with it,
Lex Fridman (2:05:27.180)
is completely gone, took three years.
Jordan Peterson (2:05:30.300)
My right eye, which was quite cloudy,
Lex Fridman (2:05:32.180)
it's cleared up completely.
Lex Fridman (2:05:35.820)
What else has changed?
Lex Fridman (2:05:36.880)
Well, I lost 50 pounds and like instantly kept it off.
Jordan Peterson (2:05:41.180)
I should mention that I too am not a deep investigator
Lex Fridman (2:05:45.860)
of nutritional science.
Jordan Peterson (2:05:47.700)
I have my skepticism towards the degree
Lex Fridman (2:05:49.620)
to which it is currently as a science.
Jordan Peterson (2:05:51.580)
Cause like a lot of complex systems is full of mystery
Lex Fridman (2:05:55.460)
and full of profiteers,
Jordan Peterson (2:05:57.960)
the people that profit of different kinds of diets.
Lex Fridman (2:06:00.100)
But I should say for me personally,
Jordan Peterson (2:06:02.300)
it does seem that I feel by far the best
Lex Fridman (2:06:05.100)
when I eat only meat.
Jordan Peterson (2:06:06.340)
It's very interesting.
Lex Fridman (2:06:07.260)
And I discovered that a long time ago.
Jordan Peterson (2:06:10.020)
First of all.
Lex Fridman (2:06:10.860)
How did you discover it?
Lex Fridman (2:06:12.220)
So by, the discovery went like this.
Lex Fridman (2:06:15.540)
I started listening to ultra marathon runners
Jordan Peterson (2:06:17.920)
about 15 years ago.
Lex Fridman (2:06:20.380)
And they started talking about fat adapted running.
Lex Fridman (2:06:27.260)
So I first discovered that I don't have to run super fast
Lex Fridman (2:06:31.100)
to enjoy running.
Lex Fridman (2:06:32.420)
And in fact, I really enjoy running at a slower pace.
Lex Fridman (2:06:36.380)
So that was like step one.
Jordan Peterson (2:06:37.500)
It's like, oh, okay.
Lex Fridman (2:06:38.380)
If I maintain something called the math rule,
Jordan Peterson (2:06:42.780)
which is the pretty low heart rate.
Lex Fridman (2:06:45.020)
If I maintain that you can actually get pretty fast
Jordan Peterson (2:06:47.760)
while maintaining a pretty slow average speed in general.
Lex Fridman (2:06:50.660)
Anyway, they fuel themselves on low carb diets.
Lex Fridman (2:06:55.740)
So I got into that.
Lex Fridman (2:06:57.300)
On top of that, I also, they also fast often.
Lex Fridman (2:07:00.620)
So I discovered how incredible my mind feels when fasted.
Lex Fridman (2:07:05.660)
You know, people call it intermittent fasting, but.
Jordan Peterson (2:07:08.180)
Well, that's an optimization of death because you're,
Lex Fridman (2:07:11.920)
when you fast, your body, logically and obviously,
Jordan Peterson (2:07:16.100)
if you think about it biologically is,
Lex Fridman (2:07:18.460)
well, what is your body scavenge first?
Jordan Peterson (2:07:20.920)
Well, damaged tissue.
Lex Fridman (2:07:24.220)
So the, and I know the literature on fasting
Jordan Peterson (2:07:27.940)
to some degree, and it's very compelling literature.
Lex Fridman (2:07:30.680)
If you starve dogs down, I think it's 20% below rats too,
Jordan Peterson (2:07:35.080)
below their optimal body weight, they live 30% longer.
Lex Fridman (2:07:38.180)
That's a lot, 30%, like it's like 30%, yeah, 30%.
Jordan Peterson (2:07:43.860)
Well, there is aspect to a lot of these things
Lex Fridman (2:07:46.380)
that make me nervous because I always feel like
Jordan Peterson (2:07:48.740)
there's no free lunch that I'm gonna pay for it somehow.
Lex Fridman (2:07:51.520)
But there's a focus that I am able to attain when I fast,
Jordan Peterson (2:07:55.980)
especially when I eat once a day.
Lex Fridman (2:07:57.900)
My mind is almost like nervously focused.
Jordan Peterson (2:08:01.360)
It's almost like an anxiety, but a positive one
Lex Fridman (2:08:04.100)
or one that I can channel into just like an excitement.
Jordan Peterson (2:08:07.180)
You know, I wonder how much of that's associated with,
Lex Fridman (2:08:10.500)
well, imagine that that signifies lack of food,
Jordan Peterson (2:08:13.980)
which not that hard to imagine.
Lex Fridman (2:08:16.000)
Well, maybe you should be a lot more alert
Lex Fridman (2:08:17.900)
in that situation, right?
Lex Fridman (2:08:19.300)
Biologically speaking, because you're in hunting mode,
Jordan Peterson (2:08:22.780)
let's say, you know, not desperate, but in hunting mode.
Lex Fridman (2:08:26.580)
And God only knows maybe human beings
Jordan Peterson (2:08:29.460)
should be in hunting mode all the time.
Lex Fridman (2:08:31.180)
Often, but we don't know that.
Lex Fridman (2:08:32.860)
So I wonder if it has a stress on the system
Lex Fridman (2:08:37.500)
that long term causes the system to get sick.
Jordan Peterson (2:08:39.940)
It doesn't look like it.
Lex Fridman (2:08:41.260)
It seems in the case of fasting, not.
Lex Fridman (2:08:43.620)
And then on top of that, I discovered that
Lex Fridman (2:08:46.340)
the thing I enjoy, I just don't enjoy eating fat as much.
Lex Fridman (2:08:52.040)
So I love eating meat when you talk about low carb diet.
Lex Fridman (2:08:55.600)
So I just discovered through that process,
Jordan Peterson (2:08:57.980)
if somewhat fatty meat, but just meat,
Lex Fridman (2:09:00.860)
I just feel a lot of the things
Jordan Peterson (2:09:03.900)
that make me feel weird about food,
Lex Fridman (2:09:05.500)
like a little groggy or like full or just whatever,
Jordan Peterson (2:09:11.620)
the aspects of food that I don't enjoy,
Lex Fridman (2:09:14.100)
they're not there with meat.
Lex Fridman (2:09:15.740)
And I'm still able to enjoy company.
Lex Fridman (2:09:18.420)
And when I eat once a day and eat meat,
Jordan Peterson (2:09:22.300)
I said, at least in Texas,
Lex Fridman (2:09:24.420)
you could still have all the merriment of,
Jordan Peterson (2:09:27.180)
you have dinner with friends.
Lex Fridman (2:09:28.780)
Now, I don't do the, you have a very serious thing
Jordan Peterson (2:09:33.060)
that there's health benefits
Lex Fridman (2:09:37.140)
that you are very serious about.
Jordan Peterson (2:09:39.420)
For me, I can still drink whiskey.
Lex Fridman (2:09:41.500)
I'll still do the things that add a little bit of spice
Jordan Peterson (2:09:46.500)
into the thing.
Lex Fridman (2:09:47.580)
Now, when you completely remove the spice,
Jordan Peterson (2:09:49.700)
it does become more difficult.
Lex Fridman (2:09:52.300)
Yeah, it's more difficult socially.
Lex Fridman (2:09:53.740)
And Tammy seems to only be able to eat lamb,
Lex Fridman (2:09:56.540)
although she might be able to eat non aged beef.
Lex Fridman (2:09:58.860)
And that makes traveling complicated too, right?
Lex Fridman (2:10:02.220)
Because, well, for obvious reasons,
Lex Fridman (2:10:04.620)
it's like, really, that's all you can eat?
Lex Fridman (2:10:08.020)
Yeah, well, celeries.
Lex Fridman (2:10:09.780)
And maybe that's a form of craziness, but.
Lex Fridman (2:10:12.300)
If we can return to actually the thing
Jordan Peterson (2:10:13.940)
you were talking about,
Lex Fridman (2:10:15.540)
when you were thinking about a question before the lecture.
Jordan Peterson (2:10:18.460)
Let me ask you about thinking in general.
Lex Fridman (2:10:22.860)
This is something maybe that you and Jim Keller
Jordan Peterson (2:10:25.220)
think a lot about is thinking how to think.
Lex Fridman (2:10:29.140)
How do you think through an idea?
Jordan Peterson (2:10:32.900)
Well, first of all, I think, okay,
Lex Fridman (2:10:36.460)
that's a really good question.
Jordan Peterson (2:10:38.060)
We tried to work that out with this essay app
Lex Fridman (2:10:40.100)
that my son and I have developed,
Jordan Peterson (2:10:41.460)
because if you're gonna write,
Lex Fridman (2:10:42.700)
the first question is, well, what should I write about?
Lex Fridman (2:10:45.060)
What's the name of the app?
Lex Fridman (2:10:46.060)
Essay.app.
Lex Fridman (2:10:48.140)
And, well, the first question is, well, what bugs you?
Lex Fridman (2:10:53.540)
What's bugging you?
Jordan Peterson (2:10:54.820)
This is such a cool thing.
Lex Fridman (2:10:56.020)
It's like, where is my destiny?
Lex Fridman (2:10:59.220)
Well, what bothers you?
Lex Fridman (2:11:00.780)
Well, that's where your destiny is.
Jordan Peterson (2:11:02.180)
Your destiny is to be found in what bothers you.
Lex Fridman (2:11:04.860)
Why did those things bother you?
Jordan Peterson (2:11:07.340)
There's a lot of things you could be bothered by.
Lex Fridman (2:11:09.660)
Like a million things, man.
Lex Fridman (2:11:11.460)
But some things grip you.
Lex Fridman (2:11:13.580)
They bug you.
Lex Fridman (2:11:14.500)
And they might make you resentful and bitter,
Lex Fridman (2:11:16.700)
because they bug you so much.
Jordan Peterson (2:11:17.900)
Like, they're your things, man.
Lex Fridman (2:11:20.020)
They've got you.
Lex Fridman (2:11:21.500)
So then I look for a question
Lex Fridman (2:11:23.700)
that I would like the answer to,
Jordan Peterson (2:11:25.980)
that I don't, and I would really like the answer to it,
Lex Fridman (2:11:29.740)
so I don't assume I already have the answer,
Jordan Peterson (2:11:32.380)
because I would actually really like to have the answer.
Lex Fridman (2:11:35.340)
So if I could get a better answer, great.
Lex Fridman (2:11:39.220)
And so that's the first thing.
Lex Fridman (2:11:40.220)
And that's like a prayer.
Jordan Peterson (2:11:41.660)
It's like, okay, here's a mystery.
Lex Fridman (2:11:45.300)
I would like to delve into it further.
Jordan Peterson (2:11:49.740)
Well, so that's humility.
Lex Fridman (2:11:51.060)
It's like, here's a mystery,
Jordan Peterson (2:11:52.620)
which means I don't know.
Lex Fridman (2:11:54.100)
I would like to delve into it further,
Jordan Peterson (2:11:55.900)
which means I don't know enough already.
Lex Fridman (2:11:58.940)
And then comes the revelation.
Lex Fridman (2:12:01.860)
It's like, well, what's a revelation?
Lex Fridman (2:12:04.340)
Well, if you ask yourself a question, it's a real question.
Lex Fridman (2:12:08.620)
Do you get an answer or not?
Lex Fridman (2:12:10.340)
And the answer is, well, yeah,
Jordan Peterson (2:12:11.660)
thoughts start to appear in your head.
Lex Fridman (2:12:14.020)
So...
Jordan Peterson (2:12:14.860)
From somewhere.
Lex Fridman (2:12:15.700)
That's right, from somewhere.
Lex Fridman (2:12:16.540)
Where do they come from?
Lex Fridman (2:12:17.740)
Do you have a sense?
Jordan Peterson (2:12:19.300)
Depends on what you're aiming at.
Lex Fridman (2:12:21.620)
Depends on the question.
Jordan Peterson (2:12:23.260)
No, no, it does to some degree.
Lex Fridman (2:12:26.300)
It depends on your intent.
Lex Fridman (2:12:29.060)
So imagine that your intent is to make things better.
Lex Fridman (2:12:33.940)
Then maybe they come from the place
Jordan Peterson (2:12:35.340)
that's designed to make things better.
Lex Fridman (2:12:37.300)
Maybe your intent is to make things worse.
Jordan Peterson (2:12:39.820)
Then they come from hell.
Lex Fridman (2:12:42.300)
And you think, not really.
Lex Fridman (2:12:43.420)
It's like, you're so sure about that, are you?
Lex Fridman (2:12:45.940)
Is your intent conscious?
Lex Fridman (2:12:47.380)
Like, are you able to introspect with the intent?
Lex Fridman (2:12:49.660)
Conscious and habitual, right?
Jordan Peterson (2:12:51.740)
Because as you practise something consciously,
Lex Fridman (2:12:54.060)
it becomes habitual.
Lex Fridman (2:12:55.300)
But it's conscious.
Lex Fridman (2:12:56.220)
It's like when I sit down before I do a lecture,
Lex Fridman (2:12:59.620)
I think, okay, what's the goal here?
Lex Fridman (2:13:01.700)
To do the best job I can.
Lex Fridman (2:13:04.140)
To what end?
Lex Fridman (2:13:05.100)
Well, people are coming here not for political issues.
Jordan Peterson (2:13:08.540)
They're coming here because they're trying
Lex Fridman (2:13:09.740)
to make their lives better.
Lex Fridman (2:13:11.780)
Okay, so what are we doing?
Lex Fridman (2:13:13.020)
We're conducting a joint investigation
Jordan Peterson (2:13:14.940)
into the nature of that which makes life better.
Lex Fridman (2:13:17.500)
Okay, what's my role?
Jordan Peterson (2:13:18.740)
To do as good a job about that as possible.
Lex Fridman (2:13:21.780)
What state of mind do I have to be in?
Lex Fridman (2:13:23.620)
Am I annoyed about the theatre?
Lex Fridman (2:13:25.980)
Or am I clued in and thrilled that 4,000 people
Jordan Peterson (2:13:30.260)
have showed up at substantial expense and trouble
Lex Fridman (2:13:33.620)
to come and listen to me talk?
Lex Fridman (2:13:35.420)
And if I'm not in that state of mind,
Lex Fridman (2:13:36.940)
I think, well, maybe I need something to eat
Jordan Peterson (2:13:38.380)
or maybe I need to talk to someone
Lex Fridman (2:13:39.900)
because ingratitude is no place to start.
Jordan Peterson (2:13:44.460)
It's like, I should be thrilled to be there, obviously.
Lex Fridman (2:13:48.180)
And so that orientation has to be there.
Lex Fridman (2:13:50.260)
And then I, is it conscious?
Lex Fridman (2:13:51.460)
All this is conscious.
Lex Fridman (2:13:52.740)
What am I serving?
Lex Fridman (2:13:53.860)
The highest good I can conceptualize.
Lex Fridman (2:13:55.780)
What is that?
Lex Fridman (2:13:56.900)
I have some sense, but I don't know it
Jordan Peterson (2:13:58.700)
in the final analysis, which is why the investigation
Lex Fridman (2:14:01.540)
is being conducted.
Lex Fridman (2:14:02.620)
Who's doing it?
Lex Fridman (2:14:03.660)
Me, whoever I'm communing with, and the audience.
Lex Fridman (2:14:07.820)
And so I try to get myself and I chase everybody away
Lex Fridman (2:14:11.140)
for that, it's like I have to do that by myself.
Lex Fridman (2:14:13.500)
Are you writing stuff down?
Lex Fridman (2:14:14.900)
Yes, at that point, I just make point notes.
Lex Fridman (2:14:19.300)
And it's usually about maybe 30 notes.
Lex Fridman (2:14:21.980)
But then I, on stage, I never refer to them.
Lex Fridman (2:14:24.220)
And I often don't even use the structure that I laid out.
Lex Fridman (2:14:27.740)
Kind of an interesting thing.
Lex Fridman (2:14:29.300)
From where do powerful phrases come from?
Lex Fridman (2:14:31.460)
Do you have a, do you try to encapsulate an idea
Lex Fridman (2:14:35.820)
into a sentence or two?
Lex Fridman (2:14:38.420)
Well, when I talk, and I've practiced this since,
Jordan Peterson (2:14:42.620)
consciously, since 1985, I try to feel
Lex Fridman (2:14:48.860)
and see if the words are stepping stones
Lex Fridman (2:14:52.140)
or foundation stones, right?
Lex Fridman (2:14:53.860)
It's like, is this solid?
Lex Fridman (2:14:55.260)
Is this word solid?
Lex Fridman (2:14:56.500)
Is this phrase solid?
Lex Fridman (2:14:57.860)
Is this sentence solid?
Lex Fridman (2:14:59.660)
It's a real sense of fundamental foundation
Jordan Peterson (2:15:04.180)
under each word.
Lex Fridman (2:15:05.100)
And I suppose people ask me if I pray.
Lex Fridman (2:15:08.220)
And I would say, I pray before every word.
Lex Fridman (2:15:14.220)
Well, when you're asking questions,
Jordan Peterson (2:15:16.300)
like you're very clear headed and present
Lex Fridman (2:15:21.220)
in your ability to ask questions and inquire.
Lex Fridman (2:15:25.500)
So how do you do that?
Lex Fridman (2:15:27.300)
So first of all, I'm worried that my mind
Jordan Peterson (2:15:32.300)
easily gets trapped when I step on a word
Lex Fridman (2:15:39.180)
and I know it's unstable.
Jordan Peterson (2:15:42.980)
You kind of realize that you don't really know
Lex Fridman (2:15:45.380)
the definitions of many words you use.
Lex Fridman (2:15:47.900)
And that can be debilitating.
Lex Fridman (2:15:52.660)
So I kind of try to be more carefree about the words I use.
Jordan Peterson (2:15:57.580)
Because otherwise you get trapped.
Lex Fridman (2:15:59.180)
You don't want to be obsessional.
Jordan Peterson (2:16:00.860)
Like literally, my mind halfway through the sentence
Lex Fridman (2:16:04.860)
will think, well, what does the word sentence mean?
Jordan Peterson (2:16:08.620)
Right, right, right.
Lex Fridman (2:16:09.620)
Well, you know, neurologically.
Lex Fridman (2:16:10.460)
And then everything else just explodes.
Lex Fridman (2:16:12.580)
Your big picture idea explodes
Lex Fridman (2:16:14.660)
and you lost yourself in the minutiae.
Lex Fridman (2:16:17.380)
Well, neurologically, there's a production center
Lex Fridman (2:16:21.860)
and an editing center.
Lex Fridman (2:16:23.780)
And those can be separately affected by strokes.
Lex Fridman (2:16:27.180)
And so often when people are writing or talking,
Lex Fridman (2:16:30.380)
they try to activate both at the same time.
Lex Fridman (2:16:33.100)
And that's, so people will try to write an essay
Lex Fridman (2:16:35.700)
and get every sentence right in the first draft.
Jordan Peterson (2:16:37.500)
That's a big mistake.
Lex Fridman (2:16:38.940)
And so then you might say, well,
Lex Fridman (2:16:40.020)
how can you be careful with your words, but carefree?
Lex Fridman (2:16:42.780)
And the answer is orient yourself properly, right?
Jordan Peterson (2:16:46.180)
While in the conversation we're having,
Lex Fridman (2:16:48.260)
you have an orientation structure.
Jordan Peterson (2:16:50.020)
You want to be prepared.
Lex Fridman (2:16:52.020)
You want to be attentive.
Jordan Peterson (2:16:53.860)
Then you want to have an interesting conversation.
Lex Fridman (2:16:56.300)
And you want to have the kind of interesting conversation
Jordan Peterson (2:16:58.340)
that other people want to listen to.
Lex Fridman (2:17:01.500)
That will be good for them in some manner.
Jordan Peterson (2:17:04.460)
Okay, so that's pretty good frame.
Lex Fridman (2:17:06.300)
And then you kind of scour your heart
Lex Fridman (2:17:09.180)
and you think, is that really what you want?
Lex Fridman (2:17:10.780)
Are you after fame or after notoriety?
Lex Fridman (2:17:12.820)
Are you after money?
Lex Fridman (2:17:14.180)
I'm not saying any of those things are necessarily bad,
Lex Fridman (2:17:17.740)
but they're not optimal,
Lex Fridman (2:17:20.020)
especially if you're not willing to admit them, right?
Lex Fridman (2:17:22.820)
And so they can contaminate you.
Lex Fridman (2:17:24.620)
So you want to be decontaminated.
Lex Fridman (2:17:26.780)
So you have the right trip, let's say.
Lex Fridman (2:17:29.500)
And so you have to put yourself,
Jordan Peterson (2:17:31.900)
that's a meditative practice.
Lex Fridman (2:17:33.100)
You have to put yourself in the right receptive position
Jordan Peterson (2:17:36.620)
with the right goal in mind.
Lex Fridman (2:17:38.140)
Then you can,
Lex Fridman (2:17:41.380)
and I think you can get better and better at this,
Lex Fridman (2:17:43.340)
then you can trust what's going to happen.
Jordan Peterson (2:17:47.300)
You know, so for example, before I came here,
Lex Fridman (2:17:50.820)
I mean, I presume you have a reason
Jordan Peterson (2:17:52.780)
for doing the podcast with me.
Lex Fridman (2:17:55.780)
What's the reason?
Jordan Peterson (2:17:59.980)
I mean, we wanted to talk for a long time.
Lex Fridman (2:18:03.060)
So the reason has evolved.
Jordan Peterson (2:18:07.380)
One of the reasons is I've listened to you
Lex Fridman (2:18:12.220)
for quite a long time.
Lex Fridman (2:18:13.220)
So you've become a one way friend
Lex Fridman (2:18:15.540)
and I have many one way friends.
Jordan Peterson (2:18:17.660)
Some of my best friends don't even know I exist.
Lex Fridman (2:18:21.300)
So I'm a big fan of podcasts and audio books.
Jordan Peterson (2:18:24.020)
Actually, most of my friends are dead.
Lex Fridman (2:18:26.060)
Yeah, right.
Jordan Peterson (2:18:28.020)
The writers.
Lex Fridman (2:18:28.860)
The definition of a reader.
Jordan Peterson (2:18:32.140)
It's a lot of dead, great dead friends.
Lex Fridman (2:18:34.380)
So I wanted to meet this one way friend, I suppose,
Lex Fridman (2:18:37.460)
and have a conversation.
Lex Fridman (2:18:39.420)
And then there's this kind of puzzle
Jordan Peterson (2:18:42.420)
that I've been longing to solve.
Lex Fridman (2:18:44.020)
The same reason I went to Ukraine
Lex Fridman (2:18:46.460)
of asking this question of myself, who am I?
Lex Fridman (2:18:50.500)
And what was this part of the world?
Lex Fridman (2:18:52.980)
What is this thing that happened in the 20th century?
Lex Fridman (2:18:56.260)
That I lost so much of my family there
Lex Fridman (2:18:59.420)
and I feel so much of my family is defined by that place.
Lex Fridman (2:19:03.540)
Now that place includes the Soviet Union
Lex Fridman (2:19:06.860)
and it includes Russia and Ukraine.
Lex Fridman (2:19:09.620)
It includes Nazi Germany,
Jordan Peterson (2:19:11.100)
includes these big powerful leaders
Lex Fridman (2:19:14.580)
and huge millions of people that were lost in the beauty,
Jordan Peterson (2:19:19.580)
the power of the dream, but were also the torture
Lex Fridman (2:19:25.460)
that was forced onto them
Jordan Peterson (2:19:28.220)
through different governmental institutions.
Lex Fridman (2:19:32.460)
And you are somebody that seemed from some angle
Jordan Peterson (2:19:36.340)
to also be drawn to try to understand what was that.
Lex Fridman (2:19:41.340)
And not in some sort of historical sense,
Lex Fridman (2:19:43.820)
but in a deeply psychological human sense.
Lex Fridman (2:19:46.500)
What is that?
Lex Fridman (2:19:47.340)
What is that, will it repeat again?
Lex Fridman (2:19:49.700)
In what way is it repeating again?
Lex Fridman (2:19:51.700)
And how can we stop it?
Lex Fridman (2:19:53.060)
And how can we stop it?
Lex Fridman (2:19:54.100)
And so. That's the crucial issue.
Lex Fridman (2:19:55.580)
I felt I wanted to, from a very different backgrounds,
Jordan Peterson (2:20:01.940)
pull at the thread of that curiosity.
Lex Fridman (2:20:04.180)
You know, I'm an engineer, you're a psychologist,
Jordan Peterson (2:20:08.580)
both lost in that curiosity and both wear suits.
Lex Fridman (2:20:12.580)
And a talk with various levels of eloquence
Jordan Peterson (2:20:18.700)
about sort of the shadows that these,
Lex Fridman (2:20:23.580)
that history casts on us.
Lex Fridman (2:20:28.580)
And so that was one.
Lex Fridman (2:20:30.340)
And also the psychology,
Jordan Peterson (2:20:31.580)
I wanted to be a psychiatrist for a long time.
Lex Fridman (2:20:33.660)
I was fascinated by the human mind
Jordan Peterson (2:20:38.860)
until I discovered artificial intelligence,
Lex Fridman (2:20:41.060)
the fact that I could program and make a robot move.
Lex Fridman (2:20:44.180)
And until I discovered that magic,
Lex Fridman (2:20:47.660)
I thought I wanted to understand the human mind
Jordan Peterson (2:20:50.020)
by being psychiatrist, by talking to people,
Lex Fridman (2:20:52.060)
by to talk therapy, psychotherapy.
Lex Fridman (2:20:55.020)
So now you've got the best of both worlds
Lex Fridman (2:20:56.700)
because you get to talk to people and you get build robots.
Jordan Peterson (2:20:59.740)
Yeah, I mean, but the dream ultimately is the robot.
Lex Fridman (2:21:03.580)
That I felt like by building the thing,
Lex Fridman (2:21:05.860)
can you start to try to understand it.
Lex Fridman (2:21:08.380)
That's one way.
Jordan Peterson (2:21:09.460)
I mean, we all have different skills and proclivities.
Lex Fridman (2:21:12.540)
So like my particular one is, has to do with,
Jordan Peterson (2:21:20.100)
I learned by building.
Lex Fridman (2:21:22.100)
I think through a thing by building it.
Lex Fridman (2:21:25.580)
And programming is a wonderful thing
Lex Fridman (2:21:27.620)
because it allows you to like build a little toy example.
Lex Fridman (2:21:30.620)
So in the same way you can do a little thought experiment,
Lex Fridman (2:21:33.780)
programming allows you to create a thought experiment
Jordan Peterson (2:21:35.740)
in action, it can move, it can live, it can,
Lex Fridman (2:21:38.740)
and then you can ask questions of it.
Lex Fridman (2:21:40.220)
So all of those, because of my interest in Freud and Young,
Lex Fridman (2:21:46.820)
you're also in different ways,
Jordan Peterson (2:21:49.820)
have delved deeply into humanity, the human psyche
Lex Fridman (2:21:56.660)
through the perspective of those psychologists.
Lex Fridman (2:22:00.260)
So for all those reasons, I thought our paths were crossed.
Lex Fridman (2:22:04.380)
Yeah, so that's quite a frame for a discussion, right?
Jordan Peterson (2:22:07.460)
You had all sorts of reasons, and then you think,
Lex Fridman (2:22:09.820)
well, are you just letting the conversation
Lex Fridman (2:22:12.300)
go where it will?
Lex Fridman (2:22:13.140)
It's like, well, not exactly.
Jordan Peterson (2:22:15.420)
You spent all this time,
Lex Fridman (2:22:17.780)
it's not like this came about by accident,
Jordan Peterson (2:22:19.780)
this conversation, you spent all this time framing it.
Lex Fridman (2:22:22.980)
And so all of that provides the implicit substructure
Jordan Peterson (2:22:26.740)
for the play in the conversation.
Lex Fridman (2:22:28.540)
And if you have that implicit, here's another way,
Jordan Peterson (2:22:31.420)
this is very much worth knowing is,
Lex Fridman (2:22:34.220)
if you get the implicit structure of perception right,
Jordan Peterson (2:22:36.860)
everything becomes a game.
Lex Fridman (2:22:40.500)
And not only that, a game you wanna play,
Lex Fridman (2:22:42.220)
and maybe in the final analysis,
Lex Fridman (2:22:44.020)
a game you'd wanna play forever.
Lex Fridman (2:22:47.020)
So that's obviously a distant beckoning ideal,
Lex Fridman (2:22:52.140)
but we know only games need rules, or there's no play.
Jordan Peterson (2:22:58.260)
Is there advice you can give, now that we know the frame,
Lex Fridman (2:23:03.100)
to give to me, Lex, about how to do this podcast better,
Lex Fridman (2:23:09.500)
how to think about this world,
Lex Fridman (2:23:17.940)
how to be a good engineer,
Lex Fridman (2:23:20.900)
how to be a good human being, from what you know about me.
Lex Fridman (2:23:25.460)
Take your preoccupation with suffering seriously.
Lex Fridman (2:23:28.180)
It's a serious business, right?
Lex Fridman (2:23:32.660)
And that's part of that,
Jordan Peterson (2:23:34.380)
to circle back to the beginning, let's say,
Lex Fridman (2:23:37.060)
that's that willingness to gaze into the abyss,
Jordan Peterson (2:23:39.260)
which is obviously what you were doing
Lex Fridman (2:23:40.780)
when you went to Ukraine.
Jordan Peterson (2:23:42.620)
It's like, it's gazing into the abyss that makes you better.
Lex Fridman (2:23:47.620)
The thing is, and this is maybe where Nietzsche's ideas,
Jordan Peterson (2:23:51.380)
not as differentiated as it became,
Lex Fridman (2:23:54.500)
sometimes your gaze can be forcefully directed
Jordan Peterson (2:23:57.780)
towards the abyss, and then you're traumatized.
Lex Fridman (2:24:01.740)
If it's involuntary and accidental, it can kill you.
Jordan Peterson (2:24:05.860)
The more it's voluntary, the more transformative it is.
Lex Fridman (2:24:11.660)
And that's part of that idea about facing death and hell.
Lex Fridman (2:24:14.900)
It's like, can you tolerate death and hell?
Lex Fridman (2:24:18.140)
And the answer is, this terrible answer is,
Jordan Peterson (2:24:21.340)
yes, to the degree that you're willing to do it voluntarily.
Lex Fridman (2:24:27.620)
And then you might ask, well,
Lex Fridman (2:24:29.420)
why should I have to subject myself to death and hell?
Lex Fridman (2:24:33.460)
I'm innocent.
Lex Fridman (2:24:35.060)
And then the answer to that is,
Lex Fridman (2:24:40.980)
even the innocent must be voluntarily sacrificed
Jordan Peterson (2:24:43.940)
to the highest good.
Lex Fridman (2:24:44.940)
Even the innocent must be voluntarily sacrificed to the highest good.
Jordan Peterson (2:24:54.340)
That's such an interesting distinction.
Lex Fridman (2:24:58.700)
Voluntary suffering.
Jordan Peterson (2:24:59.780)
Voluntary, yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:25:01.940)
Well, that's why the central Christian doctrine is,
Jordan Peterson (2:25:04.900)
pick up your cross and follow me.
Lex Fridman (2:25:08.460)
And I'm speaking, not in religious terms saying that,
Jordan Peterson (2:25:11.740)
I'm just speaking as a psychologist.
Lex Fridman (2:25:13.580)
It's like one of the things we've learned
Jordan Peterson (2:25:15.300)
in the last 100 years is voluntary exposure to that
Lex Fridman (2:25:19.260)
which freezes and terrifies you
Jordan Peterson (2:25:22.100)
in measured proportions is curative.
Lex Fridman (2:25:26.660)
So a form of, at least in part,
Jordan Peterson (2:25:30.220)
involuntary suffering is depression.
Lex Fridman (2:25:34.940)
Do you have advice for people on how to find a way out?
Jordan Peterson (2:25:40.300)
You're a man who has suffered in this way.
Lex Fridman (2:25:43.460)
Perhaps continue to suffer in this way.
Lex Fridman (2:25:46.140)
How do you find a way out?
Lex Fridman (2:25:51.780)
The first thing I do as a clinician,
Jordan Peterson (2:25:53.620)
if someone comes to me and says they're depressed
Lex Fridman (2:25:55.700)
is ask myself a question.
Lex Fridman (2:25:58.420)
Well, what does this person mean by that?
Lex Fridman (2:26:00.460)
So I have to find out like,
Jordan Peterson (2:26:02.340)
because maybe they're not depressed,
Lex Fridman (2:26:03.620)
maybe they're hyper anxious,
Jordan Peterson (2:26:05.100)
or maybe they're obsessional.
Lex Fridman (2:26:06.820)
Like there's various forms of powerful negative emotion.
Lex Fridman (2:26:10.380)
So they need to be differentiated.
Lex Fridman (2:26:12.340)
But then the next question you have to ask is,
Lex Fridman (2:26:14.100)
well, are you depressed?
Lex Fridman (2:26:16.860)
Or do you have a terrible life?
Lex Fridman (2:26:19.260)
Or is it some combination of the two?
Lex Fridman (2:26:21.820)
So if you're depressed, as far as I can tell,
Jordan Peterson (2:26:26.180)
you don't have a terrible life.
Lex Fridman (2:26:29.100)
You have friends, you have family,
Jordan Peterson (2:26:30.860)
you have an intimate relationship,
Lex Fridman (2:26:32.140)
you have a job or a career,
Jordan Peterson (2:26:33.660)
you're about as educated as you should be
Lex Fridman (2:26:35.380)
given your intelligence,
Jordan Peterson (2:26:36.820)
use your time outside of work wisely,
Lex Fridman (2:26:39.220)
you're not beholden to alcohol or other temptations.
Jordan Peterson (2:26:44.100)
You're engaged in the community in some fundamental sense,
Lex Fridman (2:26:47.580)
and all that's working.
Jordan Peterson (2:26:49.420)
Now, if you have all that and you're feeling really awful,
Lex Fridman (2:26:52.580)
you're either ill or you're depressed.
Lex Fridman (2:26:54.900)
And so then sometimes there's a biochemical route
Lex Fridman (2:26:57.740)
to that treatment of that.
Jordan Peterson (2:26:59.220)
My experience has been as a clinician is if you're depressed,
Lex Fridman (2:27:02.860)
but you have a life and you take an antidepressant,
Jordan Peterson (2:27:05.660)
it will probably help you a lot.
Lex Fridman (2:27:07.220)
Now, maybe you're not depressed.
Jordan Peterson (2:27:09.780)
Exactly, you just have a terrible life.
Lex Fridman (2:27:12.620)
What does that look like?
Jordan Peterson (2:27:15.820)
You have no relationship, your family's a mess,
Lex Fridman (2:27:19.100)
you've got no friends, you've got no plan, you've got no job.
Jordan Peterson (2:27:23.540)
You use your time outside of work
Lex Fridman (2:27:25.220)
not only badly but destructively.
Jordan Peterson (2:27:27.380)
You have a drug or alcohol habit
Lex Fridman (2:27:29.700)
or some other vice, pornography addiction.
Jordan Peterson (2:27:33.660)
You're completely unengaged in the surrounding community.
Lex Fridman (2:27:36.420)
You have no scaffolding whatsoever to support you
Jordan Peterson (2:27:40.380)
in your current mode of being or you move forward.
Lex Fridman (2:27:43.420)
And then as a therapist, well, you do two things.
Jordan Peterson (2:27:47.820)
Well, if it's depression per se,
Lex Fridman (2:27:50.180)
well, like I said, there's sometimes a biochemical route,
Jordan Peterson (2:27:52.900)
a nutritional route, there's ways that can be addressed.
Lex Fridman (2:27:55.820)
It's probably physiological if you're, at least in part,
Jordan Peterson (2:27:58.780)
if you're depressed, but you have an okay life.
Lex Fridman (2:28:00.980)
Sometimes it's conceptual.
Jordan Peterson (2:28:03.020)
You can turn to dreams sometimes to help people.
Lex Fridman (2:28:05.860)
Cause dreams contain the seeds of the potential future.
Lex Fridman (2:28:09.100)
And if your person is a real good dreamer
Lex Fridman (2:28:11.460)
and you can analyze dreams, that can be really helpful.
Lex Fridman (2:28:13.900)
But that seems to be only true for more creative people.
Lex Fridman (2:28:16.860)
And for the people who just have a terrible life,
Jordan Peterson (2:28:18.820)
it's like, okay, you have a terrible life.
Lex Fridman (2:28:22.140)
Well, let's pick a front.
Lex Fridman (2:28:26.180)
How about you need a friend?
Lex Fridman (2:28:29.380)
Like one sort of friend.
Lex Fridman (2:28:32.460)
Do you know how to shake hands and introduce yourself?
Lex Fridman (2:28:36.300)
I'll have the person show me.
Lex Fridman (2:28:38.780)
So let's do it for a sec.
Lex Fridman (2:28:40.420)
So it's like this, hi, I'm Jordan, right?
Lex Fridman (2:28:45.060)
And people don't know how to do that.
Lex Fridman (2:28:46.780)
And then they can't even get the ball rolling.
Jordan Peterson (2:28:49.100)
For the listener, Jordan just gave me a firm handshake.
Lex Fridman (2:28:51.340)
Yeah, as opposed to a dead fish, you know?
Lex Fridman (2:28:54.380)
And there's these elementary social skills
Lex Fridman (2:28:56.940)
that hypothetically, if you were well cared for,
Jordan Peterson (2:28:59.780)
you learned when you were like three
Lex Fridman (2:29:02.060)
and sometimes people have, I had lots of clients
Jordan Peterson (2:29:06.380)
to whom no one ever paid any attention.
Lex Fridman (2:29:09.940)
And they needed like 10,000 hours of attention.
Lex Fridman (2:29:12.740)
And some of that was just listening
Lex Fridman (2:29:14.020)
because they had 10,000 hours of conversations
Jordan Peterson (2:29:17.620)
they never had with anyone.
Lex Fridman (2:29:19.260)
And they were all tangled up in their head.
Lex Fridman (2:29:21.620)
And they had to just, one client in particular,
Lex Fridman (2:29:24.940)
I worked with this person for 15 years.
Lex Fridman (2:29:28.500)
And what she wanted from me
Lex Fridman (2:29:33.260)
was for me just to shut the hell up for 50 minutes.
Jordan Peterson (2:29:36.420)
It was very hard for me.
Lex Fridman (2:29:38.020)
And to just tell me what had happened to her.
Lex Fridman (2:29:42.020)
And then what happened at the end of the conversation,
Lex Fridman (2:29:44.980)
then I could discuss a bit with her.
Lex Fridman (2:29:48.100)
And then as we progressed through the years,
Lex Fridman (2:29:50.300)
the amount of time that we spent in discussion
Jordan Peterson (2:29:52.620)
increased in proportion in the sessions
Lex Fridman (2:29:55.220)
until by the time we stopped seeing each other,
Jordan Peterson (2:29:58.780)
when my clinical practice collapsed,
Lex Fridman (2:30:02.580)
we were talking about 80% of the time.
Lex Fridman (2:30:06.380)
But she literally,
Lex Fridman (2:30:07.500)
she'd never been attended to properly ever.
Lex Fridman (2:30:09.980)
And so she was an uncarved block in the Taoist sense, right?
Lex Fridman (2:30:13.620)
She hadn't been subjected to those flaming swords
Jordan Peterson (2:30:16.380)
that separated the wheat from the chaff.
Lex Fridman (2:30:19.380)
And so you can do that in therapy.
Jordan Peterson (2:30:22.740)
If you're listening and you're depressed,
Lex Fridman (2:30:25.420)
I would say if you can't find a therapist,
Lex Fridman (2:30:28.340)
and that's getting harder and harder
Lex Fridman (2:30:29.820)
because it's actually become illegal to be a therapist now
Jordan Peterson (2:30:32.220)
because you have to agree with your clients,
Lex Fridman (2:30:34.500)
which is a terrible thing to do with them.
Jordan Peterson (2:30:37.420)
Just like it's terrible just to arbitrarily oppose them.
Lex Fridman (2:30:40.700)
You could do the self authoring program online
Jordan Peterson (2:30:44.060)
because it helps you write an autobiography.
Lex Fridman (2:30:46.580)
And so if you have memories
Jordan Peterson (2:30:48.100)
that are more than 18 months old
Lex Fridman (2:30:49.420)
that bother you when you think them up,
Jordan Peterson (2:30:51.580)
part of you is locked inside that.
Lex Fridman (2:30:54.340)
An undeveloped part of you is still trapped in that.
Jordan Peterson (2:30:59.780)
That's a metaphorical way of thinking about,
Lex Fridman (2:31:01.620)
that's why it still has emotional significance.
Lex Fridman (2:31:04.140)
So you can write about your past experiences,
Lex Fridman (2:31:06.780)
but I would say wait for at least 18 months
Jordan Peterson (2:31:08.780)
if something bad has happened to you.
Lex Fridman (2:31:10.500)
Because otherwise you just hurt yourself again
Jordan Peterson (2:31:12.100)
by encountering it.
Lex Fridman (2:31:14.180)
You can bring yourself up to date with an autobiography.
Jordan Peterson (2:31:16.740)
There's an analysis of faults and virtues,
Lex Fridman (2:31:18.940)
that's the present authoring.
Lex Fridman (2:31:20.060)
And then there's a guided writing exercise
Lex Fridman (2:31:23.700)
that helps you make a future plan.
Jordan Peterson (2:31:25.980)
That's young men who do that could go to college,
Lex Fridman (2:31:30.460)
young men who do that, 90 minutes,
Jordan Peterson (2:31:32.500)
just the future authoring, 90 minutes,
Lex Fridman (2:31:34.460)
they're 50% less likely to drop out.
Jordan Peterson (2:31:37.260)
That's all it takes.
Lex Fridman (2:31:38.900)
So sometimes depression is this heavy cloud
Jordan Peterson (2:31:43.540)
that makes it hard to even make a single step towards it.
Lex Fridman (2:31:46.300)
Or you said isolate, make a friend.
Jordan Peterson (2:31:48.860)
Oh man, sometimes the first step is extremely difficult.
Lex Fridman (2:31:52.060)
Oh my God, sometimes it's way worse than that.
Jordan Peterson (2:31:54.940)
Like I had clients who were so depressed
Lex Fridman (2:31:57.100)
they literally couldn't get out of bed.
Lex Fridman (2:31:59.940)
So what's their first step?
Lex Fridman (2:32:01.180)
It's like, can you sit up once today?
Jordan Peterson (2:32:05.940)
No.
Lex Fridman (2:32:07.980)
Can you prop yourself up on your elbows once today?
Jordan Peterson (2:32:10.620)
Like you just, you scale back the dragon
Lex Fridman (2:32:14.060)
till you find one that's conquerable
Jordan Peterson (2:32:16.980)
that moves you forward.
Lex Fridman (2:32:18.140)
There's a rubric for life.
Jordan Peterson (2:32:19.900)
Scale back the dragons till you find one conquerable
Lex Fridman (2:32:23.180)
and it'll give you a little bit of goal.
Jordan Peterson (2:32:25.900)
Commensurate with the struggle.
Lex Fridman (2:32:27.300)
But the plus side of that,
Jordan Peterson (2:32:29.140)
cause that's, you think that God, that's depressing.
Lex Fridman (2:32:31.060)
You mean I have to start by sitting up?
Jordan Peterson (2:32:35.460)
Well you do if you can't sit up.
Lex Fridman (2:32:37.740)
But the plus side of that is
Jordan Peterson (2:32:39.380)
it's the Pareto distribution issue
Lex Fridman (2:32:40.980)
is that aggregates exponentially increase
Lex Fridman (2:32:45.860)
and failures do too by the way.
Lex Fridman (2:32:47.980)
But aggregates exponentially increase.
Lex Fridman (2:32:50.140)
So once you start the ball rolling
Lex Fridman (2:32:51.580)
it can get zipping along pretty good.
Jordan Peterson (2:32:53.380)
This person that I talked about
Lex Fridman (2:32:56.660)
was incapable of sitting with me in a cafe
Jordan Peterson (2:33:00.460)
when we first met just talking
Lex Fridman (2:33:02.100)
even though I was her therapist.
Lex Fridman (2:33:04.180)
But by the end she was doing standup comedy.
Lex Fridman (2:33:08.300)
So, you know, it took years,
Lex Fridman (2:33:10.900)
but still most people won't do standup comedy.
Lex Fridman (2:33:14.020)
That's quite the bloody achievement.
Jordan Peterson (2:33:15.940)
She would read her poetry on stage too.
Lex Fridman (2:33:20.100)
So for someone who was petrified into paralysis
Jordan Peterson (2:33:23.860)
by social anxiety and who had to start very small,
Lex Fridman (2:33:29.060)
it was a hell of an accomplishment.
Jordan Peterson (2:33:31.620)
Yeah, it all starts with one step.
Lex Fridman (2:33:33.940)
Do you have advice for young people in high school?
Jordan Peterson (2:33:38.260)
You've given, a lot of people look up to you
Lex Fridman (2:33:40.580)
for advice, for strength,
Jordan Peterson (2:33:42.540)
for strength to search for themselves, to find themselves.
Lex Fridman (2:33:47.940)
Take on some responsibility.
Jordan Peterson (2:33:50.980)
Do something for other people.
Lex Fridman (2:33:53.220)
You're doing something for yourself while you're doing that
Jordan Peterson (2:33:55.660)
even if you don't know it, for sure.
Lex Fridman (2:33:57.780)
Cause you're a community across time.
Jordan Peterson (2:34:00.220)
Find something to serve.
Lex Fridman (2:34:02.540)
Somebody to help.
Jordan Peterson (2:34:03.700)
Someone to help, a job to, find a job,
Lex Fridman (2:34:06.980)
do your best with the customers.
Jordan Peterson (2:34:08.900)
Don't be above your job.
Lex Fridman (2:34:10.220)
You're gonna get an entry level job when you're a kid
Lex Fridman (2:34:12.780)
or what else would you want?
Lex Fridman (2:34:14.700)
You wanna be the boss?
Lex Fridman (2:34:15.540)
What do you know?
Lex Fridman (2:34:16.380)
You don't know anything.
Jordan Peterson (2:34:17.780)
You could be the boss of your job.
Lex Fridman (2:34:20.260)
You know, if you're working in a grocery store
Jordan Peterson (2:34:22.140)
or you're working in a convenience store,
Lex Fridman (2:34:23.380)
assuming you're not working for terrified tyrants,
Jordan Peterson (2:34:26.620)
you can be nice to the customers.
Lex Fridman (2:34:28.700)
You can develop your social skills.
Jordan Peterson (2:34:30.940)
You can learn how to handle boss employee relationship.
Lex Fridman (2:34:34.140)
You can be there 15 minutes early and leave 15 minutes late.
Jordan Peterson (2:34:37.780)
Like you can learn in an entry level job, man.
Lex Fridman (2:34:40.340)
And I'll tell you, if you take an entry level job
Lex Fridman (2:34:42.860)
and you learn and it's a reasonably decent place,
Lex Fridman (2:34:45.820)
you will not be in an entry level job for long
Jordan Peterson (2:34:48.420)
because everyone who's competent
Lex Fridman (2:34:50.060)
is desperate for competent people.
Lex Fridman (2:34:52.100)
And if you go and show yourself as competent,
Lex Fridman (2:34:54.140)
there'll be a trial period.
Lex Fridman (2:34:55.140)
But if you go show yourself as competent,
Lex Fridman (2:34:57.140)
all sorts of doors you didn't even know were there
Jordan Peterson (2:34:59.260)
will start opening like mad.
Lex Fridman (2:35:01.060)
So you strive for competence, for craftsmanship.
Jordan Peterson (2:35:04.420)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for discipline, you know, I mean,
Lex Fridman (2:35:08.980)
I said in one of the chapters,
Jordan Peterson (2:35:11.020)
my books is focused on putting your house in order.
Lex Fridman (2:35:14.180)
It's like, well, how do you start?
Jordan Peterson (2:35:15.780)
Make your bed.
Lex Fridman (2:35:18.020)
You know, it actually took me quite a long time in my life
Jordan Peterson (2:35:21.540)
before I made my bed regularly in the morning.
Lex Fridman (2:35:23.580)
Most of my life was pretty good order,
Lex Fridman (2:35:25.380)
but that was one thing I didn't have in order.
Lex Fridman (2:35:27.700)
My clothes in my closet as well, all that's in order.
Jordan Peterson (2:35:31.060)
Not all of it, I'm cleaning out some drawers right now,
Lex Fridman (2:35:33.300)
but look around and see what bugs you in your room.
Jordan Peterson (2:35:37.980)
Just look.
Lex Fridman (2:35:39.180)
It's like, okay, I'm in my room.
Lex Fridman (2:35:40.940)
Do I like this room?
Lex Fridman (2:35:41.900)
No, it bugs me.
Lex Fridman (2:35:43.100)
Okay, why?
Lex Fridman (2:35:44.820)
Well, the paint's peeling there and it's dusty there
Lex Fridman (2:35:47.380)
and the carpet's dirty and that corner's kind of ugly
Lex Fridman (2:35:50.900)
and the light there isn't very good.
Lex Fridman (2:35:52.380)
And my clothes closet's a mess,
Lex Fridman (2:35:54.380)
so I don't even like to open it.
Jordan Peterson (2:35:56.540)
Okay, that's a lot of problems.
Lex Fridman (2:35:59.180)
That sucks.
Jordan Peterson (2:36:00.380)
That's a lot of opportunity.
Lex Fridman (2:36:02.340)
Pick something and fix it.
Jordan Peterson (2:36:04.300)
Something that bugs you.
Lex Fridman (2:36:05.980)
Yeah, but not too much.
Lex Fridman (2:36:07.460)
So the rule is pick something you know would make,
Lex Fridman (2:36:11.980)
pick a problem, pick a solution to it
Jordan Peterson (2:36:14.900)
that you know would help, that you could do,
Lex Fridman (2:36:18.980)
that you would do.
Lex Fridman (2:36:20.740)
So you have to negotiate with yourself.
Lex Fridman (2:36:22.220)
It's like, well, I won't clean up this room.
Lex Fridman (2:36:23.860)
How do you know?
Lex Fridman (2:36:24.700)
I've been in here for 10 years and I've never cleaned it up.
Jordan Peterson (2:36:27.060)
It's like, well, obviously that's too big a dragon for you.
Lex Fridman (2:36:29.700)
Would you clean one drawer?
Jordan Peterson (2:36:32.340)
Find out.
Lex Fridman (2:36:34.020)
And so imagine now you wanna be happy
Jordan Peterson (2:36:35.740)
when you open that drawer and you think,
Lex Fridman (2:36:37.140)
well, that's stupid.
Lex Fridman (2:36:37.980)
It's like, is it?
Lex Fridman (2:36:40.140)
Maybe it's your sock drawer,
Jordan Peterson (2:36:41.580)
which I cleaned up in my room the other day.
Lex Fridman (2:36:43.380)
By the way, you're gonna open that every morning.
Jordan Peterson (2:36:47.580)
That's like 30 seconds of your life every day.
Lex Fridman (2:36:50.820)
Okay, so that's three minutes a week.
Jordan Peterson (2:36:54.940)
That's 12 minutes a month.
Lex Fridman (2:36:57.340)
That's two hours a year.
Lex Fridman (2:36:59.580)
So maybe your life is made out of,
Lex Fridman (2:37:01.140)
you've got 16 hours a day.
Jordan Peterson (2:37:02.740)
Let's figure this out.
Lex Fridman (2:37:03.660)
Five, 12 in an hour, 12 in an hour, 144 in 12 hours.
Jordan Peterson (2:37:09.180)
Yeah, let's say 200, 205 minute chunks.
Lex Fridman (2:37:12.060)
That's your life.
Jordan Peterson (2:37:12.900)
Ladies and gentlemen, Jordan Peterson did just some math
Lex Fridman (2:37:15.300)
how many five minute chunks there are in a day.
Lex Fridman (2:37:17.460)
And I'm pretty sure it's pretty accurate.
Lex Fridman (2:37:19.300)
It's approximately right.
Lex Fridman (2:37:20.620)
So you got 205 minute chunks and they repeat.
Lex Fridman (2:37:24.580)
A lot of them repeat.
Lex Fridman (2:37:26.380)
So if you get every one of those right,
Lex Fridman (2:37:28.260)
they're trivial, right, who cares
Lex Fridman (2:37:29.620)
what my sock drawer looks like.
Lex Fridman (2:37:30.740)
It's like, fair enough, man, but that's your life.
Jordan Peterson (2:37:33.100)
The things you repeat every day, the mundane things.
Lex Fridman (2:37:36.820)
Think I could get all those mundane things right.
Jordan Peterson (2:37:39.340)
That's the game rules.
Lex Fridman (2:37:40.620)
It's like now all the mundane is in place.
Jordan Peterson (2:37:43.380)
Now you can play because all the mundane is in place.
Lex Fridman (2:37:45.900)
And this is actually true.
Lex Fridman (2:37:47.020)
So with children, imagine you want your children to play.
Lex Fridman (2:37:51.020)
Well, play is very fragile neurologically.
Jordan Peterson (2:37:53.660)
Any competing motivation or emotion will suppress play.
Lex Fridman (2:37:57.340)
So everything has to be in order.
Jordan Peterson (2:38:00.260)
Everything has to be a walled garden
Lex Fridman (2:38:02.060)
before the children will play.
Jordan Peterson (2:38:04.100)
That's a good way of thinking about it.
Lex Fridman (2:38:05.940)
So you put everything in order and you think,
Jordan Peterson (2:38:07.460)
oh my God, now I'm tyrannized by this order.
Lex Fridman (2:38:09.540)
It's like, no, you aren't, not if it's voluntary.
Lex Fridman (2:38:12.540)
And then the order is the precondition for the freedom.
Lex Fridman (2:38:15.700)
And so then all of a sudden
Jordan Peterson (2:38:16.660)
you get all these things in order.
Lex Fridman (2:38:17.940)
It's like, oh, look at this.
Jordan Peterson (2:38:19.340)
I've got some room to play here.
Lex Fridman (2:38:21.620)
And then maybe you're not depressed.
Jordan Peterson (2:38:24.820)
Now it's often not that simple.
Lex Fridman (2:38:26.580)
You know, it's not that simple.
Jordan Peterson (2:38:28.620)
Try putting your room in order, perfect order.
Lex Fridman (2:38:31.060)
That's hard.
Jordan Peterson (2:38:31.900)
I mean, it's a really powerful way
Lex Fridman (2:38:33.020)
to think about those five minute chunks.
Jordan Peterson (2:38:34.460)
Just get one of them right in a day.
Lex Fridman (2:38:36.620)
Yeah, well, if you do that for 200 days,
Jordan Peterson (2:38:39.380)
your life is in order.
Lex Fridman (2:38:41.940)
You know, I thought I did that with my clients a lot.
Lex Fridman (2:38:43.980)
So a lot of them would come home from work,
Lex Fridman (2:38:45.500)
the guys, and their wives would meet them at the door
Lex Fridman (2:38:47.940)
and it'd be a fight right away.
Lex Fridman (2:38:49.940)
You know, and it's a clash there
Jordan Peterson (2:38:51.140)
because he comes home and he's tired and hungry.
Lex Fridman (2:38:53.300)
He's worked all day and he's hoping that, you know,
Jordan Peterson (2:38:55.700)
he gets welcomed when he comes back to the home,
Lex Fridman (2:38:57.980)
but then the wife is at home
Lex Fridman (2:38:59.820)
and she's been with the kids all day
Lex Fridman (2:39:01.060)
and she's tired and hungry and she's hoping
Jordan Peterson (2:39:02.660)
that when he comes home, he'll show her some appreciation
Lex Fridman (2:39:04.900)
for what's happened today.
Lex Fridman (2:39:05.820)
And then they clash and then they both have problems
Lex Fridman (2:39:08.220)
to discuss because they've had their troubles
Jordan Peterson (2:39:09.700)
during the day.
Lex Fridman (2:39:10.540)
And so then every time they get together,
Jordan Peterson (2:39:13.180)
they're not like it's a bit of a fight for 20 minutes
Lex Fridman (2:39:16.300)
and then the whole evening is screwed.
Lex Fridman (2:39:18.900)
And so then you think, okay, here's the deal.
Lex Fridman (2:39:23.060)
It's knock and the door will open.
Jordan Peterson (2:39:24.940)
Okay, you get to pick what happens when you come home,
Lex Fridman (2:39:28.900)
but you have to figure out what it is.
Lex Fridman (2:39:30.180)
So now this is the deal.
Lex Fridman (2:39:31.940)
You treat yourself properly.
Jordan Peterson (2:39:33.860)
You imagine coming home
Lex Fridman (2:39:35.300)
and it goes the way you want and need it to go.
Lex Fridman (2:39:38.580)
Okay, what does that look like?
Lex Fridman (2:39:41.380)
You get to have it, but you have to know what it is.
Lex Fridman (2:39:44.100)
What does it look like?
Lex Fridman (2:39:45.980)
And you think, okay, I want to come home.
Jordan Peterson (2:39:48.020)
I want to be happy about coming home.
Lex Fridman (2:39:49.980)
I come home, I open the door.
Jordan Peterson (2:39:53.540)
I say, hello, honey, I'm home.
Lex Fridman (2:39:56.020)
My wife says, hi, it's so nice to hear your voice.
Jordan Peterson (2:39:58.740)
She comes up, she says, hi, dear.
Lex Fridman (2:40:02.380)
She gives you a hug.
Lex Fridman (2:40:03.220)
She says, how was your day?
Lex Fridman (2:40:05.060)
And you say, well, we'll sit and talk about that.
Lex Fridman (2:40:07.380)
How was your day?
Lex Fridman (2:40:08.660)
Well, we'll sit and talk about that.
Lex Fridman (2:40:10.500)
Do you need something to eat?
Lex Fridman (2:40:12.700)
Probably, let's go sit and talk about our day.
Jordan Peterson (2:40:16.220)
It's like, that sounds pretty good.
Lex Fridman (2:40:18.100)
Okay, that sounds pretty good.
Jordan Peterson (2:40:19.980)
Might not be perfect,
Lex Fridman (2:40:20.820)
but sounds a hell of a lot better
Jordan Peterson (2:40:21.940)
than what we're doing now.
Lex Fridman (2:40:23.180)
So how about we go talk to,
Jordan Peterson (2:40:26.220)
we'll go talk to your wife and say,
Lex Fridman (2:40:28.020)
okay, this is what's happening when I come home.
Jordan Peterson (2:40:31.020)
I would like it to be better.
Lex Fridman (2:40:32.700)
What would you like to have happened
Lex Fridman (2:40:35.420)
if you could have what you wanted?
Lex Fridman (2:40:37.220)
And so she sits down and she thinks,
Lex Fridman (2:40:39.220)
okay, if he comes home, what do I want to have happen?
Lex Fridman (2:40:41.500)
And then now you got two visions and you say,
Lex Fridman (2:40:44.180)
well, what would you like?
Lex Fridman (2:40:45.140)
And you listen and she says, what would you like?
Lex Fridman (2:40:48.900)
And you tell her, and then you think,
Lex Fridman (2:40:50.540)
okay, now how can we bring these visions together?
Lex Fridman (2:40:53.300)
So not only do we both get what we want,
Lex Fridman (2:40:55.580)
but because we've brought them together,
Jordan Peterson (2:40:57.020)
we even get more than we want.
Lex Fridman (2:40:58.580)
Well, who wouldn't agree to that
Jordan Peterson (2:40:59.940)
unless they were aiming down.
Lex Fridman (2:41:01.860)
And that's so exciting.
Jordan Peterson (2:41:02.820)
It's not a compromise.
Lex Fridman (2:41:04.300)
It's a union of ideals that even makes a better ideal.
Lex Fridman (2:41:08.300)
And then you get to come home.
Lex Fridman (2:41:09.460)
And then there's another rule that goes along with that,
Jordan Peterson (2:41:12.100)
which is, please, dear, have the grace
Lex Fridman (2:41:16.660)
to allow me to do this stupidly and badly
Jordan Peterson (2:41:19.660)
while I learn at least 20 times.
Lex Fridman (2:41:23.140)
And I'll give you the same leeway,
Lex Fridman (2:41:25.940)
and then we'll practice stupidly for 20 times
Lex Fridman (2:41:28.900)
and we'll talk about it.
Lex Fridman (2:41:30.500)
And then maybe we'll get it right
Lex Fridman (2:41:31.980)
for the next 10,000 times, right?
Lex Fridman (2:41:35.460)
And you can do that with your whole life.
Lex Fridman (2:41:37.860)
And you can do that with your kids
Lex Fridman (2:41:39.100)
and you can do that with your family.
Lex Fridman (2:41:40.860)
Like it's not easy, but you can do it.
Jordan Peterson (2:41:42.500)
It's a lot easier than the alternative.
Lex Fridman (2:41:44.580)
Let me ask for some dating advice from Jordan Peterson.
Lex Fridman (2:41:47.540)
How do you find on that topic the love of your life?
Lex Fridman (2:41:52.460)
That's a good question.
Jordan Peterson (2:41:54.500)
I was asked that multiple times on my tour,
Lex Fridman (2:41:58.020)
three times in a row, in fact,
Jordan Peterson (2:41:59.540)
because we ask people to use this Slido gadget.
Lex Fridman (2:42:03.900)
That's a popular question?
Jordan Peterson (2:42:05.060)
To vary.
Lex Fridman (2:42:06.020)
It always came up to the top.
Lex Fridman (2:42:07.220)
And I got asked that three times in a row
Lex Fridman (2:42:10.220)
and I didn't have a good answer.
Lex Fridman (2:42:11.700)
And then I thought, why don't I have a good answer?
Lex Fridman (2:42:16.380)
I thought, oh, I know why.
Jordan Peterson (2:42:17.900)
Cause that's a stupid question.
Lex Fridman (2:42:19.700)
So why?
Lex Fridman (2:42:24.140)
Why?
Lex Fridman (2:42:25.420)
Because it's putting the cart before the horse.
Jordan Peterson (2:42:27.900)
Here's the right question.
Lex Fridman (2:42:31.300)
How do I make myself into the perfect date?
Jordan Peterson (2:42:34.860)
You answer that question
Lex Fridman (2:42:36.220)
and you will not have any problem
Jordan Peterson (2:42:37.820)
answering the previous question.
Lex Fridman (2:42:39.140)
It's like, what do I want in a partner?
Jordan Peterson (2:42:44.260)
If I offered everything I could to a partner
Lex Fridman (2:42:46.300)
who would I be?
Jordan Peterson (2:42:47.940)
You work on that.
Lex Fridman (2:42:49.140)
Ask that question.
Jordan Peterson (2:42:49.980)
Just ask.
Lex Fridman (2:42:50.820)
Just ask yourself, okay.
Jordan Peterson (2:42:52.620)
I have to be the person that women would want.
Lex Fridman (2:42:59.420)
Okay, what do they want?
Jordan Peterson (2:43:02.580)
Clean.
Lex Fridman (2:43:03.820)
That's not a bad start.
Jordan Peterson (2:43:07.820)
Reasonably good physical shape.
Lex Fridman (2:43:11.300)
So healthy, productive,
Jordan Peterson (2:43:16.180)
generous, honest,
Lex Fridman (2:43:19.860)
willing to delay gratification.
Lex Fridman (2:43:21.620)
So you dance with a woman.
Lex Fridman (2:43:22.820)
It's like, what's she doing?
Lex Fridman (2:43:23.740)
What are you two doing?
Lex Fridman (2:43:24.780)
Well, it's a pattern.
Jordan Peterson (2:43:26.540)
There's patterns happening around you.
Lex Fridman (2:43:28.060)
That's the music, patterns, patterns of being.
Jordan Peterson (2:43:30.340)
That's the music.
Lex Fridman (2:43:31.780)
Now, can you align yourself
Lex Fridman (2:43:32.940)
with the patterns of being gracefully?
Lex Fridman (2:43:35.140)
That's what she's checking out.
Lex Fridman (2:43:37.340)
And then can you do that with her?
Lex Fridman (2:43:41.500)
And then can you do that in a playful
Lex Fridman (2:43:43.460)
and attentive manner and keep your bloody hands
Lex Fridman (2:43:46.660)
to yourself for at least a minute?
Lex Fridman (2:43:49.620)
And so can you dance in a playful manner?
Lex Fridman (2:43:52.900)
It's like, you can go through this in your imagination
Lex Fridman (2:43:55.300)
and you know, you'll know, you know.
Lex Fridman (2:43:58.020)
And then you think, well, how far am I from those things?
Lex Fridman (2:44:00.340)
And the answer is usually, man,
Lex Fridman (2:44:01.780)
it's pretty horrible abyss separating you from that ideal.
Lex Fridman (2:44:06.620)
But the harder you work on offering other people
Lex Fridman (2:44:11.620)
what they need and want,
Jordan Peterson (2:44:13.820)
the more people will line up to play with you.
Lex Fridman (2:44:16.660)
And so it's the wrong question.
Lex Fridman (2:44:18.060)
It's like, how can I be the best partner possible?
Lex Fridman (2:44:21.020)
And then you think, well, if I do that,
Jordan Peterson (2:44:22.460)
people will just take advantage of me.
Lex Fridman (2:44:25.020)
And that's the non naive objection, right?
Jordan Peterson (2:44:28.860)
Because the naive person is saying, well, I'll be good
Lex Fridman (2:44:30.620)
and everyone will treat me right.
Jordan Peterson (2:44:31.620)
It's like the cynic says, no, I'll be good
Lex Fridman (2:44:34.620)
and someone will take me out.
Lex Fridman (2:44:38.500)
And then you think, well,
Lex Fridman (2:44:39.340)
what do you do about that objection?
Lex Fridman (2:44:42.020)
And the answer is, well, you factor that in.
Lex Fridman (2:44:45.660)
And that's why you're supposed to be, what is it?
Jordan Peterson (2:44:48.740)
As soft as a dove and as wise as a serpent.
Lex Fridman (2:44:51.260)
It's like, I know you're full of snakes.
Jordan Peterson (2:44:54.300)
I know it.
Lex Fridman (2:44:55.700)
Maybe I know it more than you do, but we'll play anyways.
Lex Fridman (2:45:00.620)
And that's the risk anyway.
Lex Fridman (2:45:02.260)
That's right, voluntarily, right?
Jordan Peterson (2:45:04.220)
It's like, and what's so cool about that
Lex Fridman (2:45:06.740)
is that even though the person you're dealing with
Jordan Peterson (2:45:08.860)
is full of snakes, if you offer your hand in trust
Lex Fridman (2:45:13.060)
and it's real, you will evoke the best in them.
Lex Fridman (2:45:16.940)
And that's true even, I've dealt with people
Lex Fridman (2:45:18.820)
who are pretty damn criminal and pretty psychopathic
Lex Fridman (2:45:25.220)
and sometimes dangerously so.
Lex Fridman (2:45:28.140)
And you tread very lightly
Jordan Peterson (2:45:30.100)
when you're dealing with someone like that,
Lex Fridman (2:45:31.660)
especially if they're intoxicated.
Lex Fridman (2:45:33.900)
And even then your best bet is that alert trust.
Lex Fridman (2:45:42.780)
It's the only, it's the fact that the only thing I know
Jordan Peterson (2:45:45.420)
that I had one client who was a paranoid,
Lex Fridman (2:45:49.060)
he was paranoid psychopath.
Jordan Peterson (2:45:51.140)
That's a bad combination.
Lex Fridman (2:45:52.980)
He was a bad guy, man.
Jordan Peterson (2:45:54.420)
He had like four restraining orders on him
Lex Fridman (2:45:57.940)
and restraining orders don't work on the sort of people
Jordan Peterson (2:46:00.180)
that you put restraining orders on.
Lex Fridman (2:46:02.860)
And he used to be harassed now and then by a bureaucrat
Jordan Peterson (2:46:06.660)
in a bank with delusions of power.
Lex Fridman (2:46:10.060)
And he would say to them, he used to kind of act this out
Jordan Peterson (2:46:13.140)
to me when I was talking to him.
Lex Fridman (2:46:14.860)
He'd say, I'm going to be your worst nightmare.
Lex Fridman (2:46:20.300)
And he meant it and he would do it.
Lex Fridman (2:46:23.700)
He had this obsessional psychopathic vengeance
Jordan Peterson (2:46:27.620)
that was just like right there, paranoid to the hilt
Lex Fridman (2:46:31.420)
and paranoid people are hyper acute.
Lex Fridman (2:46:34.060)
So they're watching you for any sign of deceit
Lex Fridman (2:46:38.540)
or manipulation and they're really good at it.
Jordan Peterson (2:46:41.500)
Cause like they're 100%, that's what paranoia is.
Lex Fridman (2:46:44.380)
It's 100% focus on that.
Lex Fridman (2:46:47.100)
And even under those circumstances,
Lex Fridman (2:46:49.780)
if you step carefully enough, you can,
Jordan Peterson (2:46:54.420)
maybe you can avoid the ax.
Lex Fridman (2:46:57.140)
That's a good thing to know if you ever meet someone
Jordan Peterson (2:46:59.020)
truly dangerous.
Lex Fridman (2:47:01.580)
Absolutely.
Jordan Peterson (2:47:02.660)
I believe in that, that being fragile, nevertheless,
Lex Fridman (2:47:06.580)
taking that leap of trust towards another person,
Jordan Peterson (2:47:09.020)
even when they're dangerous,
Lex Fridman (2:47:10.140)
especially when they're dangerous.
Jordan Peterson (2:47:12.020)
If you care, if there's something there in those hills
Lex Fridman (2:47:16.660)
you want to find, then that's probably the only way
Jordan Peterson (2:47:20.540)
you're going to find is taking that risk.
Lex Fridman (2:47:23.380)
I have to ask you about Gulag Archipelago by Solzhenitsyn.
Jordan Peterson (2:47:28.380)
Let's speak to this very point.
Lex Fridman (2:47:30.340)
There's so many layers to this book.
Jordan Peterson (2:47:31.760)
We could talk about it forever.
Lex Fridman (2:47:33.980)
I'm sure in many ways we are talking about it forever.
Lex Fridman (2:47:38.020)
But there is sort of one of the themes captured
Lex Fridman (2:47:41.180)
in the few ways that was described to the book
Jordan Peterson (2:47:43.260)
is that line between good and evil
Lex Fridman (2:47:45.300)
that runs through every human being.
Jordan Peterson (2:47:48.560)
As he writes, the line dividing good and evil
Lex Fridman (2:47:52.860)
cuts through the heart of every human being.
Jordan Peterson (2:47:55.400)
During the life of any heart,
Lex Fridman (2:47:57.540)
this line keeps changing place.
Jordan Peterson (2:47:59.780)
Sometimes it is squeezed one way to exuberant evil,
Lex Fridman (2:48:03.540)
and sometimes it shifts to allow enough space
Jordan Peterson (2:48:06.120)
for good to flourish.
Lex Fridman (2:48:07.740)
One and the same human being is, at various ages,
Jordan Peterson (2:48:10.880)
under various circumstances,
Lex Fridman (2:48:12.720)
a totally different human being.
Jordan Peterson (2:48:15.020)
At times he's close to being a devil,
Lex Fridman (2:48:17.600)
at times the sainthood.
Lex Fridman (2:48:20.040)
But his name doesn't change,
Lex Fridman (2:48:22.100)
and to that name we ascribe the whole lot, good and evil.
Lex Fridman (2:48:26.500)
What do you think about this line?
Lex Fridman (2:48:27.740)
What do you think about this thing
Jordan Peterson (2:48:29.340)
where we talked about if you give somebody a chance,
Lex Fridman (2:48:31.820)
you actually bring out the best in them?
Lex Fridman (2:48:33.720)
What do you think about this other aspect
Lex Fridman (2:48:36.420)
that throughout time that line shifts inside each person
Lex Fridman (2:48:41.620)
and you get to define that shift?
Lex Fridman (2:48:43.660)
What do you think about this line?
Lex Fridman (2:48:45.940)
Are we all capable of evil?
Lex Fridman (2:48:48.700)
Well, you know, the cosmic drama,
Jordan Peterson (2:48:50.420)
that's Satan versus Christ.
Lex Fridman (2:48:53.580)
It's like, well, who's that about?
Lex Fridman (2:48:55.700)
If it's not about you?
Lex Fridman (2:48:59.020)
I'm speaking just as a psychologist
Jordan Peterson (2:49:01.500)
or as a literary critic.
Lex Fridman (2:49:03.140)
Those are characters, at least they're that.
Lex Fridman (2:49:06.660)
Well, are they human characters?
Lex Fridman (2:49:08.980)
Well, obviously.
Lex Fridman (2:49:10.660)
Well, are they archetypal human characters?
Lex Fridman (2:49:13.740)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (2:49:14.680)
What does that mean cosmically and ontologically?
Lex Fridman (2:49:18.460)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (2:49:19.660)
Like, is the world a story?
Lex Fridman (2:49:22.460)
Maybe.
Lex Fridman (2:49:23.300)
But the way stories are often told
Lex Fridman (2:49:24.640)
is the characters embody a stable.
Jordan Peterson (2:49:27.180)
Those are unsophisticated, not great literature though.
Lex Fridman (2:49:30.420)
It's very rare in great literature.
Lex Fridman (2:49:32.180)
What you have in great literature generally
Lex Fridman (2:49:33.940)
is the internal drama, right?
Lex Fridman (2:49:35.580)
And as the literature becomes more pop, I would say,
Lex Fridman (2:49:40.700)
the characters are more unitary.
Lex Fridman (2:49:42.940)
So there's a real bad guy and he's all bad
Lex Fridman (2:49:44.900)
and there's a real good guy and he's all good.
Lex Fridman (2:49:47.940)
And that's not as interesting.
Lex Fridman (2:49:49.660)
It's not as sophisticated.
Jordan Peterson (2:49:51.500)
When you reach Dostoevskian heights in literary representation
Lex Fridman (2:49:55.460)
or Shakespearean heights, you can identify with the villain.
Lex Fridman (2:50:01.900)
And that's when literature really reaches its pinnacle
Lex Fridman (2:50:05.420)
in some sense.
Lex Fridman (2:50:06.500)
And also the characters change throughout.
Lex Fridman (2:50:08.700)
They shift throughout.
Jordan Peterson (2:50:09.540)
They're unpredictable throughout.
Lex Fridman (2:50:11.340)
Taking the speaking of Russian more seriously recently.
Lex Fridman (2:50:14.540)
And I've gotten to talk to translators of Dostoevsk and Tolstoy
Lex Fridman (2:50:17.900)
and Cherkov and those kinds of folks.
Lex Fridman (2:50:22.180)
And you get the, one of the mistakes that translators made
Lex Fridman (2:50:25.980)
with Dostoevsky for the longest time
Jordan Peterson (2:50:28.380)
is they would, quote unquote, fix the chaotic mess
Lex Fridman (2:50:33.260)
that is Dostoevsky because there was a sense
Jordan Peterson (2:50:37.040)
like he was too rushed in his writing.
Lex Fridman (2:50:39.960)
It seemed like there was tangents
Jordan Peterson (2:50:41.660)
that had nothing to do with anything.
Lex Fridman (2:50:43.580)
The characters were unpredictable and not inconsistent.
Jordan Peterson (2:50:46.580)
There's parts of phrases that seem to be incomplete,
Lex Fridman (2:50:49.460)
that kind of stuff.
Lex Fridman (2:50:50.500)
And what they realize that is, that's not,
Lex Fridman (2:50:53.100)
that's actually crafted that way.
Jordan Peterson (2:50:55.260)
It's not, it's like editing James Joyce,
Lex Fridman (2:50:58.580)
like Finnegan's Wake or something
Jordan Peterson (2:51:00.020)
because it doesn't make any sense.
Lex Fridman (2:51:01.740)
They realize that that is the magic of it.
Jordan Peterson (2:51:03.700)
That captures the humanity of these characters,
Lex Fridman (2:51:05.960)
that they are unpredictable.
Jordan Peterson (2:51:07.100)
They change throughout time.
Lex Fridman (2:51:08.780)
There's a bunch of contradictions.
Jordan Peterson (2:51:11.220)
On which point I gotta ask, is there a case to be made
Lex Fridman (2:51:13.900)
that Brothers Karamazov is the greatest book I've ever written?
Jordan Peterson (2:51:17.940)
Yeah, there is a case to be made for that.
Lex Fridman (2:51:20.180)
I don't know, is it better than Crime and Punishment?
Jordan Peterson (2:51:23.020)
Yes, yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:51:23.980)
You think so?
Lex Fridman (2:51:24.860)
Why do you, I'm not arguing with it.
Lex Fridman (2:51:26.740)
Why do you think that?
Jordan Peterson (2:51:28.060)
Well, every book is a person.
Lex Fridman (2:51:30.420)
Some of my best friends are inside that book.
Jordan Peterson (2:51:32.740)
Yeah, it's an amazing book.
Lex Fridman (2:51:34.060)
I mean, there's no doubt about it.
Jordan Peterson (2:51:35.660)
I think it's, some books are defined
Lex Fridman (2:51:39.900)
by your personal relationship with them.
Jordan Peterson (2:51:41.340)
That one was definitive, and I almost graduated to that one
Lex Fridman (2:51:44.620)
because for the longest time,
Jordan Peterson (2:51:46.540)
The Idiot was my favorite book of all,
Lex Fridman (2:51:51.300)
because I identified with the ideas
Jordan Peterson (2:51:53.980)
represented by Prince Mishkin.
Lex Fridman (2:51:55.620)
I also identified.
Jordan Peterson (2:51:56.660)
Ah, that's interesting.
Lex Fridman (2:51:58.140)
To Prince Mishkin as a human being.
Jordan Peterson (2:52:00.500)
The holy fool.
Lex Fridman (2:52:01.540)
The fool, yeah, because the world kind of,
Jordan Peterson (2:52:04.500)
my whole life still kind of sees me,
Lex Fridman (2:52:07.260)
saw me in my perception.
Jordan Peterson (2:52:08.620)
My narrow perception is kind of the fool.
Lex Fridman (2:52:12.820)
And I, different from the interpretation
Jordan Peterson (2:52:17.620)
that a lot of people take of this book,
Lex Fridman (2:52:19.860)
I see him as a kind of hero to be.
Jordan Peterson (2:52:22.180)
Oh, definitely.
Lex Fridman (2:52:23.020)
To be a naive, quote unquote, fool,
Lex Fridman (2:52:26.780)
but really just a naive optimist,
Lex Fridman (2:52:29.900)
and naive in the best possible way.
Jordan Peterson (2:52:31.780)
I do believe that.
Lex Fridman (2:52:33.180)
That's childlike?
Jordan Peterson (2:52:34.540)
Yeah, childlike is a better.
Lex Fridman (2:52:36.260)
So naive is usually seen as.
Jordan Peterson (2:52:38.460)
That's childish, naive.
Lex Fridman (2:52:39.700)
Yeah, but childlike.
Jordan Peterson (2:52:42.660)
That's why no one enters the kingdom of heaven
Lex Fridman (2:52:45.340)
unless they become like a child.
Jordan Peterson (2:52:48.060)
That's Prince Mishkin.
Lex Fridman (2:52:49.260)
Dostoevsky knew that.
Lex Fridman (2:52:50.980)
So that's why he liked The Idiot.
Lex Fridman (2:52:52.340)
That's so interesting.
Jordan Peterson (2:52:53.700)
See, I think I like Crime and Punishment
Lex Fridman (2:52:55.420)
because while you identified with Mishkin,
Jordan Peterson (2:52:57.260)
I think I identified more with Raskolnikov
Lex Fridman (2:52:59.780)
because I was tempted by a Luciferian intellect,
Jordan Peterson (2:53:02.060)
you know, in a manner very similar
Lex Fridman (2:53:06.220)
to the manner he was tempted.
Lex Fridman (2:53:07.820)
But I mean, I think you can make a case
Lex Fridman (2:53:10.540)
that the Brothers Karamazov is Dostoevsky's
Jordan Peterson (2:53:13.340)
crowning achievement.
Lex Fridman (2:53:15.140)
Well.
Lex Fridman (2:53:15.980)
And that's something, man.
Lex Fridman (2:53:16.940)
He ruined literature for me.
Jordan Peterson (2:53:20.300)
Because everything else just felt insipid afterwards.
Lex Fridman (2:53:22.660)
Not everything.
Jordan Peterson (2:53:24.060)
Not everything.
Lex Fridman (2:53:25.420)
I found some books that in my experience
Jordan Peterson (2:53:29.940)
hit that pinnacle.
Lex Fridman (2:53:31.940)
The Master and Margarita.
Jordan Peterson (2:53:34.220)
That's a deadly book.
Lex Fridman (2:53:35.380)
I've read that I think four times,
Lex Fridman (2:53:36.900)
and I still, there's still, it's unbelievably deep.
Lex Fridman (2:53:41.060)
There's a Nikos Kazantzakis, a Greek writer.
Jordan Peterson (2:53:44.420)
Some of his books are,
Lex Fridman (2:53:46.940)
his writing is amazing as well.
Jordan Peterson (2:53:48.860)
Did you ever connect with the literary,
Lex Fridman (2:53:50.860)
like existentialist Camus or people like Hermann Hesse
Lex Fridman (2:53:55.820)
or even Kafka?
Lex Fridman (2:53:59.060)
Did you ever connect with those?
Lex Fridman (2:54:00.340)
To the same degree?
Lex Fridman (2:54:01.340)
Yeah, to the same.
Jordan Peterson (2:54:02.180)
Enough to be an influence.
Lex Fridman (2:54:03.620)
You know, you have to be deaf in some fundamental sense
Jordan Peterson (2:54:07.300)
not to encounters a great dead friend and fail to learn.
Lex Fridman (2:54:12.020)
No, and I mean, I tried to separate the wheat
Jordan Peterson (2:54:14.700)
from the chaff when I read.
Lex Fridman (2:54:16.420)
You know, and I read all the great clinicians,
Jordan Peterson (2:54:18.340)
all of them, perhaps not.
Lex Fridman (2:54:21.820)
Those who are foremost in the pantheon.
Lex Fridman (2:54:24.180)
And I tried to pull out what I could,
Lex Fridman (2:54:25.980)
and that was a lot.
Jordan Peterson (2:54:26.900)
I learned a lot from Freud.
Lex Fridman (2:54:28.260)
I learned a lot from Rogers.
Lex Fridman (2:54:30.100)
And I learned a lot from, well,
Lex Fridman (2:54:31.380)
from Dostoevsky and Nietzsche.
Jordan Peterson (2:54:32.860)
I'm gonna do a course on Dostoevsky and Nietzsche
Lex Fridman (2:54:35.100)
for this Peterson Academy.
Jordan Peterson (2:54:36.460)
This is coming up in January.
Lex Fridman (2:54:38.260)
Oh, that'll be them together.
Jordan Peterson (2:54:40.020)
I'm really looking forward to it.
Lex Fridman (2:54:40.860)
You're weaving, I mean.
Jordan Peterson (2:54:43.100)
I hadn't thought about doing them together.
Lex Fridman (2:54:44.700)
Oh.
Jordan Peterson (2:54:45.540)
That'd be fun.
Lex Fridman (2:54:46.380)
That's a good idea.
Jordan Peterson (2:54:47.220)
That'd be a good idea.
Lex Fridman (2:54:48.060)
Well, there's an interesting.
Jordan Peterson (2:54:50.020)
I'm gonna steal that idea.
Lex Fridman (2:54:51.380)
I don't know.
Jordan Peterson (2:54:52.220)
You often weave them together really masterfully
Lex Fridman (2:54:54.420)
because there is religious in the broad sense
Jordan Peterson (2:54:59.740)
of that word, themes throughout the writing.
Lex Fridman (2:55:02.060)
Throughout the writing of both.
Jordan Peterson (2:55:03.620)
Yeah, well, there's uncanny parallelisms
Lex Fridman (2:55:05.660)
in their writing and their lives.
Jordan Peterson (2:55:07.900)
So, and Dostoevsky's deeper than Nietzsche,
Lex Fridman (2:55:12.180)
but that's because he was a writer of fiction.
Jordan Peterson (2:55:15.580)
Nietzsche is almost a character in a Dostoevsky book.
Lex Fridman (2:55:18.060)
He is definitely that.
Jordan Peterson (2:55:19.620)
He is definitely that, yes.
Lex Fridman (2:55:22.340)
And apparently Nietzsche knew more about Dostoevsky
Jordan Peterson (2:55:24.820)
than people had thought.
Lex Fridman (2:55:25.740)
There's been some recent scholarship on that grounds.
Jordan Peterson (2:55:27.940)
Dostoevsky didn't know anything about Nietzsche
Lex Fridman (2:55:29.780)
as far as I know.
Jordan Peterson (2:55:30.900)
I could be wrong about that.
Lex Fridman (2:55:32.340)
But the thing that Dostoevsky had over Nietzsche
Jordan Peterson (2:55:35.340)
is Nietzsche had to make things propositional
Lex Fridman (2:55:37.660)
in some real sense, cause he was a philosopher.
Lex Fridman (2:55:39.500)
And it's hard to propositionalize things
Lex Fridman (2:55:42.420)
that are outside your ken, but you can characterize them.
Lex Fridman (2:55:46.460)
And so in the Brothers Karamazov,
Lex Fridman (2:55:49.340)
Ivan is a more developed character than Eleosha.
Jordan Peterson (2:55:54.180)
In the explicit sense, he can make better arguments.
Lex Fridman (2:55:58.060)
But Eleosha wins, like Mishkin, because he's the better man.
Lex Fridman (2:56:02.820)
And Dostoevsky can show that in the actions.
Lex Fridman (2:56:06.860)
He can't render it entirely propositional,
Lex Fridman (2:56:08.780)
but that's probably because what's good
Lex Fridman (2:56:10.220)
can't be rendered entirely propositional.
Lex Fridman (2:56:12.700)
And so Dostoevsky had that edge over Nietzsche.
Lex Fridman (2:56:14.820)
He said, well, Ivan is this brilliant rationalist,
Jordan Peterson (2:56:17.420)
atheist, materialist, and puts forward an argument
Lex Fridman (2:56:21.460)
on that front that's still unparalleled
Jordan Peterson (2:56:23.420)
as far as I'm concerned.
Lex Fridman (2:56:25.020)
And overwhelms Eleosha, who cannot respond
Lex Fridman (2:56:27.980)
but Eleosha's still the better man.
Lex Fridman (2:56:30.820)
So, which is very interesting, you know, that.
Jordan Peterson (2:56:33.740)
You know, the funny thing about those two characters
Lex Fridman (2:56:35.820)
is you, Jordan Peterson, seem to be somebody
Jordan Peterson (2:56:39.580)
that at least in part embodies both.
Lex Fridman (2:56:42.500)
Because you are one of the intellectuals of our time,
Jordan Peterson (2:56:45.660)
rigorous in thought, but also are able
Lex Fridman (2:56:49.540)
to have that kind of, what would you describe?
Jordan Peterson (2:56:52.740)
If you remove the religiosity of Eleosha,
Lex Fridman (2:56:55.980)
there's a, what's a good word?
Jordan Peterson (2:56:59.700)
Love towards the world.
Lex Fridman (2:57:00.860)
Spirit of encouragement.
Jordan Peterson (2:57:02.940)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (2:57:04.420)
Which one?
Jordan Peterson (2:57:05.260)
Yeah, well, it's, you know, one of the things
Lex Fridman (2:57:06.700)
I did learn, perhaps, from looking into the abyss
Jordan Peterson (2:57:10.180)
to the degree that I have had to, or was willing to,
Lex Fridman (2:57:16.060)
was that at some level you have to make
Jordan Peterson (2:57:17.940)
a fundamental statement of faith.
Lex Fridman (2:57:20.500)
When God creates the world, after each day,
Jordan Peterson (2:57:23.020)
He says, He saw that it was good.
Lex Fridman (2:57:26.540)
You think, well, is it good?
Jordan Peterson (2:57:28.100)
It's like, well, there's a tough question.
Lex Fridman (2:57:29.900)
I mean, you know, do you want to bring a child
Jordan Peterson (2:57:31.740)
into a world such as this, which is a fundamental question
Lex Fridman (2:57:35.020)
of whether or not it's good.
Jordan Peterson (2:57:38.020)
It's an act of faith to declare that it's good
Lex Fridman (2:57:41.220)
because the evidence is ambivalent.
Lex Fridman (2:57:44.380)
And so then you think, okay, well,
Lex Fridman (2:57:47.900)
am I gonna act as if it's good?
Lex Fridman (2:57:49.500)
And what would happen if I did?
Lex Fridman (2:57:51.700)
And maybe the answer to that is, I think this is the answer.
Jordan Peterson (2:58:02.100)
The more you act out the proposition that it's good,
Lex Fridman (2:58:06.780)
the better it gets.
Lex Fridman (2:58:09.620)
And so that's it.
Lex Fridman (2:58:10.460)
Dostoevsky said, this is something else.
Jordan Peterson (2:58:13.300)
Every man is not only responsible for everything he does,
Lex Fridman (2:58:16.100)
but for everything everyone else does.
Lex Fridman (2:58:18.100)
It's like, what is that profound, or are you just insane?
Lex Fridman (2:58:23.020)
Then you think, is what you receive back proportionate
Lex Fridman (2:58:28.020)
to what you deliver?
Lex Fridman (2:58:30.060)
And the answer to that might be yes.
Jordan Peterson (2:58:32.580)
That's a terrifying idea, man.
Lex Fridman (2:58:34.860)
And it's certainly, you can see that it's true in some sense
Jordan Peterson (2:58:37.500)
because people certainly respond to you in kind
Lex Fridman (2:58:42.500)
with how you treat them.
Jordan Peterson (2:58:43.820)
That's certainly the case.
Lex Fridman (2:58:44.980)
I mean, it's terrifying and it's exciting.
Jordan Peterson (2:58:48.220)
Yeah, right.
Lex Fridman (2:58:49.940)
But that's an adventure, isn't it?
Jordan Peterson (2:58:51.180)
You, yeah, you create the world by the way you live it.
Lex Fridman (2:58:59.340)
The world you experience is defined by the way
Jordan Peterson (2:59:02.100)
you live that world.
Lex Fridman (2:59:03.340)
And that's really interesting.
Lex Fridman (2:59:05.180)
And then taken as a collective,
Lex Fridman (2:59:06.740)
we create the world together in that way.
Lex Fridman (2:59:09.140)
What do you think is the meaning of it all?
Lex Fridman (2:59:11.180)
What's the meaning of life, Jordan Peterson?
Jordan Peterson (2:59:13.540)
You've, we've defined it many, many times
Lex Fridman (2:59:16.100)
throughout this conversation.
Jordan Peterson (2:59:16.940)
It's the adventure along the route, man.
Lex Fridman (2:59:20.300)
And I would say, where's that adventure to be found?
Lex Fridman (2:59:24.900)
In faith?
Lex Fridman (2:59:26.140)
What's the faith?
Jordan Peterson (2:59:27.780)
The highest value is love and truth is its handmaiden.
Lex Fridman (2:59:33.180)
That's a statement of faith, right?
Jordan Peterson (2:59:34.700)
Because you can't tell.
Lex Fridman (2:59:37.500)
You have to act it out to see if it's true.
Jordan Peterson (2:59:40.780)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:59:41.620)
If it's true. Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:59:43.540)
And so you can't even find out without,
Lex Fridman (2:59:46.260)
and that's so peculiar.
Jordan Peterson (2:59:47.820)
You have to make the commitment a priori.
Lex Fridman (2:59:50.340)
Yeah. It's like a marriage.
Jordan Peterson (2:59:51.540)
It's the same thing.
Lex Fridman (2:59:53.540)
It's like, well, is this the person for me?
Jordan Peterson (2:59:56.420)
Oh, that's the wrong question.
Lex Fridman (2:59:59.340)
How do I find out if this is the person for me?
Jordan Peterson (30:00.260)
Now, I've had debates with people about that
Lex Fridman (30:03.260)
because I have friends who say, no,
Jordan Peterson (30:05.540)
if you're calling out the environmentalists, globalists
Lex Fridman (30:10.500)
who are harassing the Dutch farmers,
Jordan Peterson (30:12.820)
then a little anger is just the ticket.
Lex Fridman (30:15.860)
But then others say, well, you don't want to be too harsh
Jordan Peterson (30:18.900)
because you alienate people who would otherwise listen to you.
Lex Fridman (30:22.020)
It's like, that's a hard balance to get right.
Lex Fridman (30:24.900)
But also maybe anger hardens your mind
Lex Fridman (30:28.420)
to where you don't notice the subtle quiet beauty
Jordan Peterson (30:31.220)
of the world, the quiet love that's always there
Lex Fridman (30:34.580)
that permeates everything.
Jordan Peterson (30:36.140)
Sometimes you can become deeply cynical about the world
Lex Fridman (30:38.900)
if it's the Nietzsche thing.
Jordan Peterson (30:41.820)
Battle not with monsters lest ye become a monster.
Lex Fridman (30:45.740)
And if you gaze into the abyss,
Jordan Peterson (30:47.420)
the abyss gazes also into you.
Lex Fridman (30:50.780)
But I would say, bring it on.
Jordan Peterson (30:56.260)
Right, because I also say knowing
Lex Fridman (30:58.620)
that he's absolutely right.
Lex Fridman (30:59.980)
But if you gaze into the abyss long enough,
Lex Fridman (31:03.380)
you see the light, not the darkness.
Lex Fridman (31:06.140)
Are you sure about that?
Lex Fridman (31:08.300)
I'm betting my life on it.
Jordan Peterson (31:10.540)
Yeah, that's a heck of a bet.
Lex Fridman (31:12.140)
Well, that's.
Jordan Peterson (31:12.980)
Because it might distort your mind to where all you see.
Lex Fridman (31:17.460)
Is abyss.
Jordan Peterson (31:18.300)
Is abyss, is the evil in this world.
Lex Fridman (31:21.140)
Well, then I would say you haven't looked long enough.
Jordan Peterson (31:24.140)
You know, that's back to the.
Lex Fridman (31:25.860)
You just eliminated.
Jordan Peterson (31:26.700)
The swords, the flaming swords.
Lex Fridman (31:28.380)
It's like, so I said the whole story of Christ
Jordan Peterson (31:31.060)
was prefigured in that image.
Lex Fridman (31:33.260)
It's like the story of Christ psychologically
Jordan Peterson (31:36.820)
is radical acceptance of the worst possible tragedy.
Lex Fridman (31:40.860)
That's what it means, that's what the crucifix means.
Jordan Peterson (31:42.940)
Psychologically, it's like gaze upon that
Lex Fridman (31:45.100)
which you are most afraid of.
Lex Fridman (31:46.700)
But that story doesn't end there.
Lex Fridman (31:48.500)
Because in the story, Christ goes through death into hell.
Lex Fridman (31:53.420)
So death isn't enough.
Lex Fridman (31:55.260)
The abyss, the abyss of innocent death
Jordan Peterson (31:57.740)
is not sufficient to produce redemption.
Lex Fridman (32:00.660)
It has to be a voluntary journey to hell.
Lex Fridman (32:03.100)
And maybe that's true for everyone.
Lex Fridman (32:06.180)
And that's like, there is no more terrifying idea than that,
Jordan Peterson (32:09.380)
by definition.
Lex Fridman (32:10.260)
And so then, well, do you gaze upon that?
Lex Fridman (32:13.180)
Well, who knows?
Lex Fridman (32:17.700)
Who knows?
Lex Fridman (32:18.540)
How often do you gaze upon death, your own?
Lex Fridman (32:22.460)
How often do you remember, remind yourself
Lex Fridman (32:26.060)
that this ride ends?
Lex Fridman (32:27.460)
Personally?
Jordan Peterson (32:28.300)
Personally.
Lex Fridman (32:29.540)
All the time.
Jordan Peterson (32:30.740)
Because you, as a deep thinker and a philosopher,
Lex Fridman (32:33.700)
it's easy to start philosophizing
Lex Fridman (32:36.300)
and forgetting that you're,
Lex Fridman (32:39.300)
you might die today.
Jordan Peterson (32:40.300)
The angel of death sits on every word.
Lex Fridman (32:43.620)
How's that?
Lex Fridman (32:45.700)
How often do you actually consciously?
Lex Fridman (32:48.100)
All the time.
Lex Fridman (32:49.620)
Notice the angel?
Lex Fridman (32:50.660)
All the time.
Jordan Peterson (32:53.980)
I think it's one of the things that made me peculiar.
Lex Fridman (32:57.700)
When I was in graduate school, you know,
Jordan Peterson (32:59.980)
I thought about, I was, I had the thought of death
Lex Fridman (33:03.140)
in my mind all the time.
Lex Fridman (33:05.180)
And I noticed that many of the people that I was with,
Lex Fridman (33:07.380)
these were people I admired, fine.
Jordan Peterson (33:09.940)
That wasn't part of their character,
Lex Fridman (33:12.100)
but it was definitely part of mine.
Jordan Peterson (33:13.820)
I'd wake up every morning, this happened for years,
Lex Fridman (33:17.020)
think, time's short, get at it.
Jordan Peterson (33:19.740)
Time's short, get at it.
Lex Fridman (33:21.580)
There's things to do.
Lex Fridman (33:23.580)
And so that was always, it's still there.
Lex Fridman (33:25.620)
And it's still there with, I would say,
Lex Fridman (33:27.860)
and it's unbearable in some sense.
Lex Fridman (33:30.060)
Are you afraid of it?
Lex Fridman (33:31.220)
Like what's your relationship?
Lex Fridman (33:32.980)
Yeah.
Jordan Peterson (33:33.820)
You know, I was ready to die a year ago and not casually.
Lex Fridman (33:40.420)
I had people I loved, you know.
Lex Fridman (33:47.100)
So no, I'm not very worried about me,
Lex Fridman (33:49.460)
but I'm very worried about making a mistake.
Jordan Peterson (33:52.100)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (33:53.260)
I heard Elon Musk talk about that a couple of months ago.
Jordan Peterson (33:55.540)
It was really a striking moment.
Lex Fridman (33:57.860)
Someone asked him about death and he said just offhand
Lex Fridman (34:00.620)
and then went on with the conversation.
Lex Fridman (34:02.100)
He said, I'd be a relief.
Lex Fridman (34:03.420)
And then he went on with the conversation.
Lex Fridman (34:06.780)
And I thought, well, you know,
Jordan Peterson (34:09.420)
he's got a lot of weight on his shoulders.
Lex Fridman (34:11.740)
I'm sure that part of him thinks
Jordan Peterson (34:14.300)
I'd be easier just if this wasn't here at all.
Lex Fridman (34:18.100)
Now he said it offhand,
Lex Fridman (34:19.500)
but it was a telling moment in my estimation.
Lex Fridman (34:21.900)
So for him, that's a why live question.
Jordan Peterson (34:26.060)
The exhaustion of life, if you call it life is suffering,
Lex Fridman (34:30.220)
but the hardship.
Jordan Peterson (34:32.260)
I'm more afraid of hell than death.
Lex Fridman (34:36.380)
You're afraid of the thing that follows?
Jordan Peterson (34:40.140)
I don't know if it follows or if it's always here.
Lex Fridman (34:44.420)
And I think we're gonna find out.
Lex Fridman (34:47.300)
What's the connection between death and hell?
Lex Fridman (34:50.180)
I don't know.
Jordan Peterson (34:53.380)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (34:54.540)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (34:55.380)
Is there something that needs to be done before you arrive?
Lex Fridman (34:58.500)
You're more likely to die terribly
Jordan Peterson (35:00.300)
if you live in a manner that brings you to hell.
Lex Fridman (35:03.780)
That's one connection.
Lex Fridman (35:04.900)
And terribly is a very deep kind of concept.
Lex Fridman (35:08.620)
Okay.
Jordan Peterson (35:09.460)
Yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (35:13.020)
And that's the definition, by the way.
Lex Fridman (35:16.220)
What do you make of Elon Musk?
Lex Fridman (35:17.820)
You've spoken about him a bit.
Jordan Peterson (35:19.500)
You met him.
Lex Fridman (35:20.340)
I'm struck with admiration.
Jordan Peterson (35:22.660)
That's what I make of him.
Lex Fridman (35:23.500)
And I always think of that as a primary.
Lex Fridman (35:26.820)
Well, it's like, do you find this comedian funny?
Lex Fridman (35:29.980)
It's like, well, I laugh at him.
Lex Fridman (35:31.940)
You know what I mean?
Lex Fridman (35:32.780)
It's not propositional again.
Lex Fridman (35:34.780)
And so I would,
Lex Fridman (35:36.660)
there are things I would like to ask Mr. Musk about.
Jordan Peterson (35:41.020)
The Mars venture.
Lex Fridman (35:42.660)
I don't know what he's up to there.
Jordan Peterson (35:44.260)
It strikes me as absurd in the most fundamental sense
Lex Fridman (35:47.900)
because I think, well, it'd be easier
Jordan Peterson (35:49.100)
just to build an outpost in the Antarctica or in the desert.
Lex Fridman (35:52.300)
Well, how much of the human endeavor is absurd?
Jordan Peterson (35:54.340)
Well, that's what it needs to say.
Lex Fridman (35:56.940)
Great men are seldom credited with their stupidity.
Lex Fridman (35:59.620)
Who the hell knows what Musk is up to?
Lex Fridman (36:01.580)
I mean, obviously he's building rockets.
Jordan Peterson (36:03.860)
Now he's motivated because he wants to build
Lex Fridman (36:06.100)
a platform for life on Mars.
Lex Fridman (36:08.980)
Is that a good idea?
Lex Fridman (36:11.580)
Who am I to say?
Jordan Peterson (36:13.300)
He's building the rockets, man.
Lex Fridman (36:14.860)
But I'd like to ask him about it.
Jordan Peterson (36:16.700)
I would like to see that conversation.
Lex Fridman (36:19.300)
I do think that having talked to him quite a bit offline,
Jordan Peterson (36:24.580)
I think these, several of his ideas like Mars,
Lex Fridman (36:29.260)
like humans becoming a multi planetary species
Jordan Peterson (36:31.900)
could be one of the things that human civilization
Lex Fridman (36:35.580)
looks back at as, duh, I can't believe
Jordan Peterson (36:39.740)
he is one of the few people that was really pushing
Lex Fridman (36:42.100)
this idea because it's the obvious thing
Jordan Peterson (36:45.140)
for society, for life to survive.
Lex Fridman (36:48.140)
Yeah, well, it isn't obvious to me
Jordan Peterson (36:49.540)
that I'm in any position to evaluate Elon Musk.
Lex Fridman (36:52.580)
Like I would like to talk to him
Lex Fridman (36:53.820)
and find out what he's up to and why,
Lex Fridman (36:55.460)
but I mean, he's an impossible person.
Lex Fridman (36:58.620)
What he's done is impossible, all of it.
Lex Fridman (37:01.420)
It's like he built an electric car that works.
Jordan Peterson (37:03.580)
Now, does it work completely and will it replace gas cars
Lex Fridman (37:06.420)
or should it?
Jordan Peterson (37:07.260)
I don't know, but if we're gonna build electric cars,
Lex Fridman (37:10.700)
he seems to be the best at that by a lot.
Lex Fridman (37:14.220)
And he more or less did that, people carp about him,
Lex Fridman (37:16.740)
but he more or less did that by himself.
Jordan Peterson (37:18.980)
I know he's very good at distributing responsibility
Lex Fridman (37:21.460)
and all of that, but he's the spearhead.
Lex Fridman (37:23.260)
And then that was pretty hard.
Lex Fridman (37:25.140)
And then he built a rocket at like one 10th
Jordan Peterson (37:28.780)
the price of NASA rockets.
Lex Fridman (37:30.620)
And then he shot his car out into space.
Jordan Peterson (37:33.380)
That's pretty hard.
Lex Fridman (37:34.860)
And then he's building this boring company,
Lex Fridman (37:38.020)
more or less as a, what would you call it?
Lex Fridman (37:41.180)
It's sort of, it's this whimsical joke in some sense,
Lex Fridman (37:44.500)
but it's not a joke.
Lex Fridman (37:46.260)
He's amazing.
Lex Fridman (37:47.300)
And Neuralink delving into the depths of the mind.
Lex Fridman (37:51.380)
And Starlink.
Jordan Peterson (37:52.220)
It's like, go Elon, as far as I'm concerned.
Lex Fridman (37:55.220)
And then he puts his finger on things so oddly.
Jordan Peterson (37:58.540)
The problem is underpopulation.
Lex Fridman (38:01.220)
It's like, I think so too.
Jordan Peterson (38:02.540)
I think it's a terrible problem that we're,
Lex Fridman (38:05.220)
the West for example, is no longer at replacement
Jordan Peterson (38:09.860)
with regard to birth rate.
Lex Fridman (38:10.980)
It means we've abandoned the Virgin and the child
Jordan Peterson (38:13.380)
in a most fundamental sense.
Lex Fridman (38:14.940)
It's a bloody catastrophe.
Lex Fridman (38:16.860)
And Musk, he sees it clear as can be.
Lex Fridman (38:19.980)
It's like, wow, and where everyone else is running around
Jordan Peterson (38:22.500)
going, oh, there's too many people.
Lex Fridman (38:24.100)
It's like, nope, got that.
Jordan Peterson (38:26.860)
Not only, see, I've learned that there are falsehoods
Lex Fridman (38:30.220)
and lies and there are antitruths.
Lex Fridman (38:33.260)
And an antitruth is something that's so preposterous
Lex Fridman (38:36.060)
that you couldn't make a claim
Jordan Peterson (38:39.620)
that's more opposite to the truth.
Lex Fridman (38:42.660)
And the claim that there are too many people
Jordan Peterson (38:44.940)
on the planet is an antitruth.
Lex Fridman (38:46.740)
So, you know, people say, well, you have to accept
Jordan Peterson (38:50.580)
limits to growth and et cetera.
Lex Fridman (38:52.060)
It's like, I have to accept the limits
Jordan Peterson (38:56.300)
that you're going to impose on me
Lex Fridman (38:58.260)
because you're frightened of the future.
Lex Fridman (39:00.700)
That's your theory, isn't it?
Lex Fridman (39:02.500)
Okay.
Jordan Peterson (39:04.460)
Well, it's an idea.
Lex Fridman (39:05.700)
It could be a right idea.
Jordan Peterson (39:07.060)
It could be a wrong idea.
Lex Fridman (39:08.340)
I don't think antitruth.
Jordan Peterson (39:11.140)
Here, I'll tell you why it's the wrong idea, I think.
Lex Fridman (39:13.740)
So imagine that there's an emergency, dragon.
Jordan Peterson (39:17.540)
There's a dragon.
Lex Fridman (39:19.140)
Someone comes and says, there's a dragon.
Jordan Peterson (39:21.140)
I'm the guy to deal with it.
Lex Fridman (39:23.500)
That's what the environmentalists say,
Jordan Peterson (39:25.100)
the radical types who push limits to growth.
Lex Fridman (39:28.540)
Then I look at them and I think, okay,
Lex Fridman (39:31.940)
is that dragon real or not?
Lex Fridman (39:34.420)
That's one question.
Jordan Peterson (39:35.700)
Well, is the...
Lex Fridman (39:36.540)
I ask that question of myself every time
Jordan Peterson (39:38.100)
when I spend time alone.
Lex Fridman (39:39.180)
Is the apocalypse looming on the environmental front?
Jordan Peterson (39:42.220)
Yes or no? I'll just leave that aside for the time being.
Lex Fridman (39:45.740)
I think you can make a case both ways
Jordan Peterson (39:47.700)
for a bunch of different reasons.
Lex Fridman (39:49.460)
And it's not a trivial concern.
Lex Fridman (39:51.660)
And we've overfished the oceans terribly.
Lex Fridman (39:54.100)
And there are environmental issues that are looming large.
Jordan Peterson (39:58.340)
Whether climate change is the cardinal one or not
Lex Fridman (3:00:02.900)
By binding myself to them.
Lex Fridman (3:00:07.060)
Well, maybe the same thing is true of life, right?
Lex Fridman (3:00:09.180)
You bind yourself to it.
Lex Fridman (3:00:10.580)
And the tighter you bind yourself to it,
Lex Fridman (3:00:12.540)
the more you find out what it is.
Lex Fridman (3:00:14.740)
And that's like a radical embrace.
Lex Fridman (3:00:17.180)
And it's a really radical embrace.
Jordan Peterson (3:00:19.180)
That's the crucifix symbol.
Lex Fridman (3:00:20.460)
And more than that, because like I said,
Jordan Peterson (3:00:22.820)
the full passion story isn't death.
Lex Fridman (3:00:26.300)
It isn't even unjust death.
Jordan Peterson (3:00:28.460)
It isn't even unjust death
Lex Fridman (3:00:30.620)
and the crucifixion of the innocent,
Jordan Peterson (3:00:33.340)
which is really getting pretty bad.
Lex Fridman (3:00:35.580)
It's unjust, torturous, innocent death,
Jordan Peterson (3:00:42.220)
attendant upon betrayal and tyranny, followed by hell.
Lex Fridman (3:00:47.460)
Well, that's a hell of a thing to radically embrace.
Jordan Peterson (3:00:50.660)
It's like, bring it on.
Lex Fridman (3:00:53.380)
I think a lot of people put truth as the highest ideal
Lex Fridman (3:00:57.980)
and think they can get to that ideal
Lex Fridman (3:01:02.980)
while living in a place of cynicism
Lex Fridman (3:01:05.900)
and ultimately escape from life
Lex Fridman (3:01:07.700)
and hiding from life, afraid of life.
Lex Fridman (3:01:10.020)
And it's beautifully put that love
Lex Fridman (3:01:13.940)
is the highest ideal to reach for and truth is.
Jordan Peterson (3:01:18.100)
It's handmade.
Lex Fridman (3:01:19.420)
I thought about that for a long time, right?
Jordan Peterson (3:01:21.060)
This hierarchy of ideal.
Lex Fridman (3:01:22.980)
And the thing about truth, that bitter truth,
Jordan Peterson (3:01:25.100)
let's say, that cynical truth,
Lex Fridman (3:01:26.540)
is it can break the shackles of naivety.
Lex Fridman (3:01:31.140)
And actually a burnt cynicism
Lex Fridman (3:01:34.420)
is a moral improvement over a blind naivety.
Jordan Peterson (3:01:39.900)
Even though one is in some ways positive,
Lex Fridman (3:01:42.540)
but only because it's protected.
Lex Fridman (3:01:44.180)
And the other is bitter and dark, but still better.
Lex Fridman (3:01:48.060)
But you're not done at that point.
Jordan Peterson (3:01:49.500)
You're just barely started.
Lex Fridman (3:01:51.340)
It's like, you're cynical?
Jordan Peterson (3:01:53.100)
You're not cynical enough.
Lex Fridman (3:01:55.500)
It's like, how cynical are you?
Lex Fridman (3:01:57.060)
Are you, I'm an Auschwitz prison guard level of cynical?
Lex Fridman (3:02:01.420)
Because you have to be,
Jordan Peterson (3:02:03.460)
you have to go down pretty deep into the weeds
Lex Fridman (3:02:05.580)
before you find that part of you.
Lex Fridman (3:02:07.220)
But you can find it if you want.
Lex Fridman (3:02:09.420)
And then you think, well, I want to stop this.
Jordan Peterson (3:02:13.060)
Well, that was the question you posed.
Lex Fridman (3:02:14.420)
In some sense, you're obsessed with,
Jordan Peterson (3:02:15.860)
say, what happened on these mass scale catastrophes
Lex Fridman (3:02:19.860)
in the communist countries.
Jordan Peterson (3:02:21.380)
It's like, well, millions of people participated.
Lex Fridman (3:02:24.740)
So you could have, and maybe you would have enjoyed it.
Lex Fridman (3:02:28.100)
So what part of that is you?
Lex Fridman (3:02:30.140)
And you can find it if you want.
Jordan Peterson (3:02:33.980)
Yeah, it's all there.
Lex Fridman (3:02:35.420)
The prisoner, the interrogator, the Judas.
Jordan Peterson (3:02:40.140)
Pontius Pilate.
Lex Fridman (3:02:41.940)
All of it.
Jordan Peterson (3:02:42.780)
All of it, yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:02:43.620)
And all of it is inside us.
Jordan Peterson (3:02:45.420)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:02:46.260)
And you just have to look.
Lex Fridman (3:02:48.100)
And once you do, maybe eventually you can find the love.
Lex Fridman (3:02:51.940)
Jordan, you're an incredible human being.
Jordan Peterson (3:02:53.860)
I'm deeply honored you would talk to me.
Lex Fridman (3:02:56.460)
Thank you for being a truth seeker in this world.
Lex Fridman (3:02:59.220)
And thank you for the love.
Lex Fridman (3:03:01.020)
Hey, thanks for the invitation, man.
Jordan Peterson (3:03:04.500)
Thanks for listening to this conversation
Lex Fridman (3:03:06.060)
with Jordan Peterson.
Jordan Peterson (3:03:07.340)
To support this podcast,
Lex Fridman (3:03:08.540)
please check out our sponsors in the description.
Lex Fridman (3:03:11.140)
And now let me leave you with some words
Lex Fridman (3:03:13.220)
from Friedrich Nietzsche.
Jordan Peterson (3:03:15.540)
You must have chaos within you
Lex Fridman (3:03:17.620)
to give birth to a dancing star.
Jordan Peterson (3:03:20.980)
Thank you for listening and hope to see you
Lex Fridman (3:03:23.220)
next time.
Jordan Peterson (40:00.980)
is a whole different question, but we won't get into that.
Lex Fridman (40:03.660)
That's not the issue.
Jordan Peterson (40:04.940)
You're clamoring about a dragon.
Lex Fridman (40:07.100)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (40:08.660)
Why should I listen to you?
Lex Fridman (40:10.460)
Well, let's see how you're reacting to the dragon.
Jordan Peterson (40:13.460)
First of all, you're scared stiff and in a state of panic.
Lex Fridman (40:17.780)
That might indicate you're not the man for the job.
Jordan Peterson (40:20.940)
Second, you're willing to use compulsion
Lex Fridman (40:24.500)
to harness other people to fight the dragon for you.
Lex Fridman (40:27.620)
So now not only are you terrified,
Lex Fridman (40:30.260)
you're a terrified tyrant.
Lex Fridman (40:32.540)
So then I would say, well, then you're not the Moses
Lex Fridman (40:34.860)
that we need to lead us out of this particular exodus.
Lex Fridman (40:38.580)
And maybe that's a neurological explanation.
Lex Fridman (40:41.460)
It's like, if you're so afraid of what you're facing
Jordan Peterson (40:45.060)
that you're terrified into paralysis and nihilism
Lex Fridman (40:47.940)
and that you're willing to use tyrannical compulsion
Jordan Peterson (40:50.340)
to get your way, you are not the right leader for the time.
Lex Fridman (40:54.300)
So then I like someone like Bjorn Lomborg
Jordan Peterson (40:56.340)
or Matt Ridley or Marion Toopy.
Lex Fridman (40:59.100)
And they say, well, look,
Jordan Peterson (41:00.580)
we've got our environmental problems.
Lex Fridman (41:03.140)
And maybe you could make a case
Jordan Peterson (41:06.860)
that there's a Malthusian element in some situations,
Lex Fridman (41:11.100)
but fundamentally the track record of the human race
Jordan Peterson (41:14.540)
is that we learn very fast and faster all the time
Lex Fridman (41:18.500)
to do more with less, and we've got this.
Lex Fridman (41:23.020)
And I think, yes, to that idea.
Lex Fridman (41:27.820)
And I think about it in a fundamental way.
Jordan Peterson (41:32.420)
It's like, I trust Lomborg, I trust Toopy,
Lex Fridman (41:36.540)
trust Matt Ridley.
Jordan Peterson (41:38.340)
They've thought about these things deeply.
Lex Fridman (41:40.140)
They're not just saying,
Jordan Peterson (41:40.980)
oh, the environment doesn't matter,
Lex Fridman (41:42.260)
whatever the environment is.
Jordan Peterson (41:45.180)
You know, the environment, I don't even know what that is.
Lex Fridman (41:47.540)
That's everything, the environment.
Jordan Peterson (41:49.660)
I'm concerned about the environment.
Lex Fridman (41:51.340)
It's like, which is, how is that different
Lex Fridman (41:55.380)
than saying I'm worried about everything?
Lex Fridman (41:57.620)
How are those statements different semantically?
Jordan Peterson (42:00.780)
Well, yeah, the environment, it could be,
Lex Fridman (42:02.820)
I'm worried about human society.
Jordan Peterson (42:04.980)
A lot of these complex systems are difficult to talk about
Lex Fridman (42:07.580)
because there's so much involved for sure.
Jordan Peterson (42:09.620)
Yeah, everything.
Lex Fridman (42:10.940)
And then these models,
Jordan Peterson (42:12.700)
because people have gone after me
Lex Fridman (42:14.140)
because I don't buy the climate models.
Jordan Peterson (42:15.940)
Well, I think about the climate models
Lex Fridman (42:18.220)
as extended into the economic models
Jordan Peterson (42:21.380)
because the climate model is,
Lex Fridman (42:23.980)
well, there's gonna be a certain degree of heating,
Jordan Peterson (42:25.940)
let's say by 2100.
Lex Fridman (42:27.540)
It's like, okay, some of that might be human generated.
Jordan Peterson (42:30.900)
Some of it's a consequence of warming after the ice age.
Lex Fridman (42:33.700)
This has happened before, but fair enough.
Jordan Peterson (42:36.260)
Let's take your presumption.
Lex Fridman (42:38.620)
Although there are multiple presumptions
Lex Fridman (42:40.780)
and any error in your model multiplies as time extends,
Lex Fridman (42:44.860)
but have it your way.
Jordan Peterson (42:46.740)
Okay, now we're gonna extend the climate model,
Lex Fridman (42:48.740)
so to speak, into the economic model.
Lex Fridman (42:50.860)
So I just did an analysis of a paper by Deloitte,
Lex Fridman (42:55.060)
third biggest company in the US,
Jordan Peterson (42:59.140)
300,000 employees, major league consultants.
Lex Fridman (43:01.940)
They just produced a report in May.
Jordan Peterson (43:03.740)
I wrote an article for it in the Telegraph,
Lex Fridman (43:05.460)
which I'm gonna release this week on my YouTube channel.
Jordan Peterson (43:08.780)
Said, well, if we get the climate problem
Lex Fridman (43:12.140)
under control economically,
Jordan Peterson (43:14.620)
because that's where the models are now being generated
Lex Fridman (43:17.140)
on the economic front.
Lex Fridman (43:18.020)
So now we have to model the environment, that's climate,
Lex Fridman (43:21.380)
and we have to model the economy,
Lex Fridman (43:23.620)
and then we have to model their joint interaction,
Lex Fridman (43:26.540)
and then we have to predict 100 years into the future,
Lex Fridman (43:29.780)
and then we have to put a dollar value on that,
Lex Fridman (43:32.660)
and then we have to claim that we can do that,
Jordan Peterson (43:35.340)
which we can't, and then this is our conclusion.
Lex Fridman (43:40.340)
We're going to go through a difficult period of privation,
Jordan Peterson (43:43.820)
because if we don't accept limits to growth,
Lex Fridman (43:45.700)
there's gonna be a catastrophe,
Jordan Peterson (43:47.340)
50 years in the future or thereabouts.
Lex Fridman (43:49.380)
And so to avert that catastrophe,
Jordan Peterson (43:52.060)
we are going to make people poorer now.
Lex Fridman (43:55.820)
How much poorer?
Jordan Peterson (43:56.940)
Well, not a lot compared to how much richer
Lex Fridman (43:58.820)
they're going to be, but definitely,
Lex Fridman (44:01.460)
and they say this in their own models,
Lex Fridman (44:03.100)
definitely poorer, definitely poorer
Jordan Peterson (44:06.340)
than they would be if we just left them the hell alone.
Lex Fridman (44:09.940)
And so then I think, okay, poorer, eh?
Lex Fridman (44:14.220)
Who?
Lex Fridman (44:15.220)
Well, let's look at it biologically.
Jordan Peterson (44:17.140)
Got a hierarchy, right, of stability and security.
Lex Fridman (44:22.900)
That's a hierarchy or one type.
Jordan Peterson (44:25.020)
You stress a hierarchy like that, a social hierarchy.
Lex Fridman (44:27.700)
So there's birds in an environment,
Lex Fridman (44:30.660)
and an avian flu comes in,
Lex Fridman (44:32.420)
and then you look at the birds in the social hierarchy,
Lex Fridman (44:34.540)
and the low ranking birds have the worst nests.
Lex Fridman (44:38.420)
So they're most exposed to wind and rain and sun
Lex Fridman (44:40.580)
and farthest from food supplies
Lex Fridman (44:42.780)
and most exposed to predators.
Lex Fridman (44:44.140)
And so those birds are stressed,
Lex Fridman (44:45.740)
which is what happens to you at the bottom of a hierarchy.
Jordan Peterson (44:47.980)
You're more stressed because your life is more uncertain.
Lex Fridman (44:51.060)
You're more stressed.
Jordan Peterson (44:51.900)
Your immunological function is compromised
Lex Fridman (44:53.780)
because of that.
Jordan Peterson (44:55.180)
You're sacrificing the future for the present.
Lex Fridman (44:58.460)
An avian flu comes in,
Lex Fridman (44:59.700)
and the birds die from the bottom up.
Lex Fridman (45:01.940)
That happens in every epidemic.
Jordan Peterson (45:03.620)
You die from the bottom up.
Lex Fridman (45:06.380)
Okay, so they say when the aristocracy catches a cold,
Jordan Peterson (45:10.780)
the working class dies of pneumonia.
Lex Fridman (45:13.020)
All right, so now we're gonna make people poorer.
Lex Fridman (45:16.820)
Okay, who?
Lex Fridman (45:18.500)
Well, we know who we make poor when we make people poorer.
Jordan Peterson (45:22.020)
We make those who are barely hanging on poorer.
Lex Fridman (45:27.180)
And what does that mean?
Jordan Peterson (45:28.900)
It means they die.
Lex Fridman (45:30.900)
And so what the Deloitte consultants are basically saying
Jordan Peterson (45:34.420)
is, well, you know, it's kind of unfortunate,
Lex Fridman (45:39.180)
but according to our models,
Jordan Peterson (45:41.700)
a lot of poor people are gonna have to die
Lex Fridman (45:44.620)
so that a lot more poor people don't die in the future.
Jordan Peterson (45:47.340)
It's like, okay, hold on a sec.
Lex Fridman (45:49.460)
Which of those two things am I supposed to regard
Lex Fridman (45:51.540)
with certainty?
Lex Fridman (45:52.780)
The hypothetical poor people
Jordan Peterson (45:54.340)
that you're gonna hypothetically save 100 years from now,
Lex Fridman (45:57.820)
or the actual poor people
Lex Fridman (46:00.060)
that you are actually going to kill in the next 10 years?
Lex Fridman (46:05.140)
Well, I'm gonna cast my lot with the actual poor people
Jordan Peterson (46:07.980)
that you're actually going to kill.
Lex Fridman (46:11.140)
And so, and then I think further,
Jordan Peterson (46:13.060)
it's like, well, okay, the Deloitte consultants,
Lex Fridman (46:16.220)
have you actually modeled the world?
Jordan Peterson (46:18.140)
Or is this a big advertising shtick
Lex Fridman (46:20.620)
designed to attract your corporate clients
Jordan Peterson (46:22.620)
with demonstration that you're so intelligent
Lex Fridman (46:24.900)
that you can actually model the entire ecosystem
Jordan Peterson (46:27.260)
of the world, including the economic system,
Lex Fridman (46:30.100)
and predict it 100 years forward?
Lex Fridman (46:32.500)
And isn't there a bit of a moral hazard
Lex Fridman (46:34.220)
in making a claim like that?
Jordan Peterson (46:36.340)
Just like just a trifle, especially when...
Lex Fridman (46:39.180)
So I talked to Bjorn Lomborg and Michael Yon last week.
Jordan Peterson (46:42.100)
I accepted the UN estimates of starvation this coming year.
Lex Fridman (46:47.100)
150 million people will suffer food insecurity.
Jordan Peterson (46:51.380)
Food insecurity.
Lex Fridman (46:53.500)
Yeah, food insecurity, that's the bloody buzzword.
Jordan Peterson (46:57.140)
Famine.
Lex Fridman (46:58.340)
Well, Michael Yon thought 1.2 billion,
Lex Fridman (47:02.380)
and then that it'll spiral because he said,
Lex Fridman (47:05.180)
what happens in a famine is that the governments go nuts,
Jordan Peterson (47:08.780)
crazy, the governments destabilize,
Lex Fridman (47:12.220)
and then they appropriate the food from the farmers.
Jordan Peterson (47:16.180)
Then the farmers don't have any money.
Lex Fridman (47:18.380)
Then they can't grow crops.
Lex Fridman (47:20.380)
And I think, yeah, that's exactly what they do.
Lex Fridman (47:22.940)
That's exactly what would happen.
Lex Fridman (47:24.980)
And so Yon told me 1.2 billion,
Lex Fridman (47:28.060)
and then Bjorn Lomborg said the same thing.
Jordan Peterson (47:30.580)
I didn't even ask him.
Lex Fridman (47:31.620)
He just made it as an offhand comment.
Jordan Peterson (47:35.260)
So...
Lex Fridman (47:36.300)
Let me ask you about the famine of the 30s.
Jordan Peterson (47:40.220)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (47:41.060)
Do you think...
Lex Fridman (47:42.580)
In the Ukraine?
Lex Fridman (47:43.420)
In the Ukraine.
Jordan Peterson (47:44.260)
Oh, yeah.
Lex Fridman (47:45.100)
Fun, fun, fun.
Jordan Peterson (47:45.940)
Similar, a lot of the things you mentioned
Lex Fridman (47:48.660)
in the last few sentences kind of echo
Jordan Peterson (47:51.420)
to that part of human history.
Lex Fridman (47:53.820)
The hole in the door.
Lex Fridman (47:55.660)
Do you...
Lex Fridman (47:56.500)
No one knows about.
Jordan Peterson (47:58.460)
Well, now I've just spent four weeks in Ukraine.
Lex Fridman (48:01.460)
Oh, yeah.
Jordan Peterson (48:02.300)
There's different parts of the world that still,
Lex Fridman (48:04.340)
even if they don't know, they know.
Jordan Peterson (48:07.740)
Yeah, right.
Lex Fridman (48:08.580)
They feel.
Jordan Peterson (48:09.820)
They feel history runs in the blood.
Lex Fridman (48:12.740)
The Dutch knew, in some sense.
Jordan Peterson (48:14.980)
They had a famine at the end of World War II.
Lex Fridman (48:16.820)
And part of the reason the Dutch farmers
Jordan Peterson (48:18.460)
are so unbelievably efficient and productive
Lex Fridman (48:21.340)
is that the Dutch swore at the end of World War II
Jordan Peterson (48:23.740)
that that was not going to happen again.
Lex Fridman (48:26.380)
And then they had to scrape land out of the ocean
Jordan Peterson (48:29.660)
because Holland, that's quite a country.
Lex Fridman (48:31.260)
It shouldn't even exist.
Jordan Peterson (48:32.780)
The fact that it's the world's number two exporter.
Lex Fridman (48:35.180)
You know that?
Jordan Peterson (48:36.020)
It's the world's number two exporter
Lex Fridman (48:37.140)
of agricultural products, Holland.
Jordan Peterson (48:39.900)
It's like, I don't think it's as big as Massachusetts.
Lex Fridman (48:43.340)
It's this little tiny place.
Jordan Peterson (48:44.620)
It shouldn't even exist.
Lex Fridman (48:46.420)
And they want to put, here's the plan.
Jordan Peterson (48:49.380)
Let's put 30% of the farmers out of business.
Lex Fridman (48:52.660)
While the broader ecosystem of agricultural production
Jordan Peterson (48:55.740)
in Holland is 6% of their GDP.
Lex Fridman (48:58.420)
Now these centralizing politicians think,
Lex Fridman (49:01.580)
tell me if I'm stupid about this.
Lex Fridman (49:03.480)
Take an industry, you knock it back by fiat by 30%.
Jordan Peterson (49:12.840)
Now it runs on like a 3% profit margin.
Lex Fridman (49:15.240)
Now you're going to kill 30% of it.
Lex Fridman (49:18.660)
How are you not going to bring the whole thing down?
Lex Fridman (49:20.540)
The whole farming ecosystem down?
Lex Fridman (49:22.880)
How are you not going to impoverish the transport systems?
Lex Fridman (49:27.140)
How are you not going to demolish the grocery stores?
Jordan Peterson (49:30.740)
You can't take something like that and pare it back
Lex Fridman (49:33.720)
by fiat by 30% and not kill it.
Jordan Peterson (49:37.120)
I can't see how you can do that.
Lex Fridman (49:39.400)
I mean, look what we did with the COVID lockdowns.
Jordan Peterson (49:41.960)
We broke the supply chains.
Lex Fridman (49:43.880)
We tried buying something lately.
Jordan Peterson (49:46.540)
You can't, and wait, and aren't the Chinese threatening
Lex Fridman (49:49.940)
Taiwan at the moment?
Lex Fridman (49:50.940)
What are we going to do without chips?
Lex Fridman (49:53.840)
So I don't know what these people are thinking.
Lex Fridman (49:56.680)
And then I think, okay, what are they thinking?
Lex Fridman (49:58.280)
Well, the Deloitte people are thinking,
Jordan Peterson (49:59.620)
aren't we smart and shouldn't we be hired
Lex Fridman (50:01.420)
by our corporate employers?
Jordan Peterson (50:02.920)
It's like, okay, too bad about the poor.
Lex Fridman (50:06.760)
What are the environmentalists thinking?
Jordan Peterson (50:09.700)
We love the planet.
Lex Fridman (50:11.080)
It's like, do you?
Jordan Peterson (50:12.620)
We love the poor.
Lex Fridman (50:13.980)
Do you?
Jordan Peterson (50:14.820)
Okay, let's pit the planet against the poor.
Lex Fridman (50:17.080)
Who wins?
Jordan Peterson (50:17.920)
The planet.
Lex Fridman (50:18.740)
Okay, you don't love the poor that much.
Lex Fridman (50:21.120)
Do you love the planet or do you hate capitalism?
Lex Fridman (50:24.800)
Let's pit those two things against each other.
Jordan Peterson (50:27.200)
Oh, well, it turns out we actually hate capitalism.
Lex Fridman (50:29.880)
How can we tell?
Jordan Peterson (50:31.460)
Because you're willing to break it.
Lex Fridman (50:33.400)
And you know what's going to happen.
Lex Fridman (50:34.580)
So what's going to happen in Sri Lanka
Lex Fridman (50:35.960)
with these 20 million people who now have nothing to eat?
Lex Fridman (50:39.000)
Are they going to eat all the animals?
Lex Fridman (50:40.920)
Are they going to burn all the firewood?
Jordan Peterson (50:42.520)
They're stockpiling firewood in Germany.
Lex Fridman (50:45.560)
It's like, so is your environmental globalist utopia
Lex Fridman (50:49.280)
going to kill the poor and destroy the planet?
Lex Fridman (50:51.720)
And that's okay, because we'll wipe out capitalism.
Jordan Peterson (50:54.240)
It's like, okay.
Lex Fridman (50:55.380)
Yeah, the dragon and the fear of the dragon
Jordan Peterson (50:57.840)
drives ideologies, some of which can build a better world,
Lex Fridman (51:01.060)
some of which can destroy that world.
Lex Fridman (51:03.160)
Now, what do you think of that theory about trustworthiness?
Lex Fridman (51:07.380)
If the dragon that you're facing
Jordan Peterson (51:09.520)
turns you into a terrified tyrant,
Lex Fridman (51:12.020)
you're not the man for the job.
Lex Fridman (51:14.240)
Is that a good theory?
Lex Fridman (51:15.540)
It's an interesting theory.
Jordan Peterson (51:16.640)
Let me use that theory to challenge,
Lex Fridman (51:18.440)
because what does terror look like?
Jordan Peterson (51:20.960)
Let me table the turns, turn the tables on you.
Lex Fridman (51:27.140)
You are terrified, afraid, concerned about the dragon
Jordan Peterson (51:37.120)
of something we can call communism, Marxism.
Lex Fridman (51:43.520)
Am I terrified of it?
Jordan Peterson (51:45.160)
Well, okay, okay.
Lex Fridman (51:46.000)
I'm not terrified enough to be a tyrant.
Jordan Peterson (51:47.040)
Your theories had two components.
Lex Fridman (51:48.840)
Yeah?
Jordan Peterson (51:49.960)
I'm not paralyzed.
Lex Fridman (51:51.240)
Had a dragon.
Jordan Peterson (51:52.080)
Yeah, I'm not paralyzed, and I don't wanna be a tyrant.
Lex Fridman (51:55.280)
The tyrant part, I think, is missing with you.
Lex Fridman (51:59.240)
But you are very concerned.
Lex Fridman (52:00.760)
The intensity of your feeling
Jordan Peterson (52:05.600)
does not give much space,
Lex Fridman (52:08.320)
actually, at least in your public persona,
Jordan Peterson (52:11.000)
for sitting quietly with the dragon
Lex Fridman (52:13.640)
and sipping on a couple of beers
Lex Fridman (52:15.160)
and thinking about this thing.
Lex Fridman (52:16.720)
The intensity of your anger,
Jordan Peterson (52:20.440)
concern about certain things you're seeing in society,
Lex Fridman (52:24.960)
is that going to drive you off the path
Lex Fridman (52:27.080)
that ultimately takes us to a better world?
Lex Fridman (52:29.440)
That's a good question.
Jordan Peterson (52:30.760)
I mean, I'm trying to get that right.
Lex Fridman (52:33.740)
So we've kind of come to a cultural conclusion
Jordan Peterson (52:36.440)
about the Nazis.
Lex Fridman (52:38.520)
Do you get to be angry about the Nazis?
Jordan Peterson (52:40.800)
Seems the answer to that is yes.
Lex Fridman (52:42.740)
Well, actually, let me push back here.
Jordan Peterson (52:47.720)
I also don't trust people who are angry about the Nazis.
Lex Fridman (52:51.640)
I mean the actual Nazis.
Jordan Peterson (52:53.120)
Well, as you know, there's a lot of people in the world
Lex Fridman (53:00.360)
that use actual Nazis to mean a lot of things.
Jordan Peterson (53:04.560)
I know, I know.
Lex Fridman (53:05.400)
One of them is very important to me.
Jordan Peterson (53:07.240)
Me, for example.
Lex Fridman (53:08.400)
Well, yes.
Jordan Peterson (53:09.240)
He's a Nazi, or magical super Nazi, as it turns out.
Lex Fridman (53:13.800)
I think they actually sort of steel man
Jordan Peterson (53:15.640)
all their perspectives.
Lex Fridman (53:16.840)
I think a lot of people that call you a Nazi mean it.
Jordan Peterson (53:20.920)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (53:23.760)
I'm aware of that.
Jordan Peterson (53:24.600)
There's an important thing there though,
Lex Fridman (53:26.480)
because I went to the front in Ukraine,
Lex Fridman (53:29.520)
and a lot of the people that lost their home
Lex Fridman (53:35.080)
or they're kind of, that got to interact a lot
Jordan Peterson (53:38.480)
with the Russian soldiers, the Ukrainian people
Lex Fridman (53:40.240)
that interact with the Russian soldiers,
Jordan Peterson (53:42.800)
they reported that the Russian soldiers
Lex Fridman (53:46.400)
really believe they're saving the people of Ukraine
Jordan Peterson (53:52.960)
in these local villages from the Nazis.
Lex Fridman (53:55.760)
I understand, yeah.
Lex Fridman (53:56.720)
So to them, it's not just that the Ukrainian government has
Lex Fridman (54:00.960)
or Ukraine has some Nazis, it's like it has been,
Jordan Peterson (54:05.120)
the idea is that the Nazis have taken over Ukraine
Lex Fridman (54:08.120)
and we need to free them.
Jordan Peterson (54:09.920)
This is the belief.
Lex Fridman (54:11.240)
So this, again, Nazi is still a dragon that lives.
Jordan Peterson (54:15.800)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (54:16.640)
And it's used by people because it's safe
Jordan Peterson (54:18.960)
to sit next to that dragon
Lex Fridman (54:20.400)
and spread any kind of ideology you want.
Lex Fridman (54:22.680)
So I just wanted to kind of say that we have agreed
Lex Fridman (54:27.200)
on this particular dragon,
Lex Fridman (54:31.840)
but I still don't trust anybody who uses that one.
Lex Fridman (54:34.160)
Yeah, but we have issues with boundaries, right?
Lex Fridman (54:36.840)
No, no, it's, so this is a very complicated problem, right?
Lex Fridman (54:40.680)
So Rene Girard believed that it was a human proclivity
Jordan Peterson (54:45.360)
to demonize a scapegoat and then drive it out
Lex Fridman (54:47.780)
of the village.
Lex Fridman (54:48.620)
And I've thought about that a lot.
Lex Fridman (54:50.760)
We need a place to put Satan.
Jordan Peterson (54:53.480)
Seriously, this is a serious issue.
Lex Fridman (54:55.880)
Should he be inside the village or outside?
Lex Fridman (54:58.240)
Well, maybe he should be inside you, right?
Lex Fridman (55:02.040)
That's the fundamental essence of the Christian doctrine.
Jordan Peterson (55:05.680)
It's like, Satan is best fought
Lex Fridman (55:08.120)
on the battleground of your soul.
Lex Fridman (55:12.560)
And that's, that's right.
Lex Fridman (55:16.720)
It's right.
Lex Fridman (55:17.640)
Can you actually put words to the kind of dragon
Lex Fridman (55:19.680)
that you're fighting?
Lex Fridman (55:20.520)
Is it communism?
Lex Fridman (55:22.440)
It's the spirit of Cain.
Jordan Peterson (55:24.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (55:26.440)
Can you elaborate what the spirit of Cain is?
Lex Fridman (55:30.700)
So after Adam and Eve are thrown out of paradise
Lex Fridman (55:36.160)
for becoming self conscious,
Jordan Peterson (55:37.760)
or when they become self conscious,
Lex Fridman (55:40.180)
they're destined to work.
Lex Fridman (55:42.640)
And the reason for that, as far as I can tell,
Lex Fridman (55:44.560)
is that to become self conscious
Jordan Peterson (55:47.440)
is to become aware of the future.
Lex Fridman (55:49.520)
It's to become aware of death.
Jordan Peterson (55:51.120)
That certainly happens in the Adam and Eve story,
Lex Fridman (55:53.400)
to have the scales fall from your eyes.
Lex Fridman (55:56.040)
And then the consequence of that
Lex Fridman (55:58.320)
is that you now have to labor to prevent
Jordan Peterson (56:01.400)
the catastrophes of the future.
Lex Fridman (56:03.500)
That's work.
Jordan Peterson (56:04.600)
Work is sacrifice.
Lex Fridman (56:06.440)
Sacrifice of the present to the future.
Jordan Peterson (56:08.980)
It's delay of gratification, it's maturity.
Lex Fridman (56:12.200)
It's sacrifice to something as well,
Lex Fridman (56:15.200)
and in the spirit of something.
Lex Fridman (56:17.500)
Okay, so now Adam and Eve have two children, Cain and Abel.
Lex Fridman (56:22.760)
So those are the first two people in history.
Lex Fridman (56:25.720)
Because the Garden of Eden doesn't count.
Lex Fridman (56:28.120)
And they're the first two people
Lex Fridman (56:29.360)
who are born rather than created.
Lex Fridman (56:31.000)
So they're the first two people.
Lex Fridman (56:32.680)
And that's a hell of a story,
Jordan Peterson (56:33.800)
because it's a story of fratricidal murder
Lex Fridman (56:36.720)
that degenerates into genocide, flood, and tyranny.
Lex Fridman (56:40.640)
So that's fun for the opening salvo of the story, let's say.
Lex Fridman (56:45.640)
And Abel and Cain both make sacrifices.
Lex Fridman (56:48.720)
And for some reason, Abel's sacrifice is please God.
Lex Fridman (56:52.260)
It's not exactly clear why.
Lex Fridman (56:54.240)
And Cain's don't.
Lex Fridman (56:56.120)
Now, there's an implication in the text
Jordan Peterson (57:00.440)
that it's because Cain's sacrifices are true,
Lex Fridman (57:03.480)
are second rate.
Jordan Peterson (57:05.000)
God says that Abel brings the finest
Lex Fridman (57:07.900)
to the sacrificial altar.
Jordan Peterson (57:09.600)
He doesn't say that about Cain.
Lex Fridman (57:11.300)
So you could imagine that Cain is sacrificing away,
Lex Fridman (57:13.680)
but he's holding something in reserve.
Lex Fridman (57:16.360)
He's not all in, he's not bringing his best to the table.
Jordan Peterson (57:19.780)
He's not offering his best to God.
Lex Fridman (57:22.120)
And so Abel thrives like mad.
Lex Fridman (57:25.620)
And everyone loves him.
Lex Fridman (57:26.680)
And he gets exactly what he needs and wants,
Jordan Peterson (57:28.720)
exactly when he needs and wants it.
Lex Fridman (57:30.960)
He's favored of God.
Lex Fridman (57:32.840)
And Cain is bearing this terrible burden forward
Lex Fridman (57:36.160)
and working, and his sacrifices are rejected.
Lex Fridman (57:40.280)
So he gets resentful, really resentful.
Lex Fridman (57:45.480)
Enough resentful enough to call God out
Lex Fridman (57:49.280)
and say something like,
Lex Fridman (57:51.320)
this is quite the creation you've got going here.
Jordan Peterson (57:55.680)
I'm breaking myself in half
Lex Fridman (57:57.320)
and nothing good's coming my way.
Lex Fridman (58:00.200)
What the hell's up with that?
Lex Fridman (58:01.520)
And then there's Abel, the sun shining on him every day.
Lex Fridman (58:04.900)
How dare you?
Lex Fridman (58:06.640)
It's like, okay.
Lex Fridman (58:07.920)
But this is God that Cain's talking to.
Lex Fridman (58:10.280)
And so God says what Cain least wants to hear,
Jordan Peterson (58:14.640)
which is what God usually says to people.
Lex Fridman (58:17.120)
He says, look to your own devices.
Jordan Peterson (58:21.040)
You're not making the sacrifices you should.
Lex Fridman (58:24.160)
And you know it.
Lex Fridman (58:25.420)
And then he says something even worse.
Lex Fridman (58:27.800)
He says, sin crouches at your door
Jordan Peterson (58:31.840)
like a sexually aroused predatory animal.
Lex Fridman (58:35.600)
And you've invited it in to have your way,
Jordan Peterson (58:39.400)
to have its way with you.
Lex Fridman (58:41.560)
And so he basically says,
Jordan Peterson (58:42.920)
you have allowed your resentment to preoccupy yourself.
Lex Fridman (58:47.600)
And now you're brooding upon it
Lex Fridman (58:49.400)
and generating something creative, new and awful,
Lex Fridman (58:52.880)
possessed by the spirit of resentment.
Lex Fridman (58:56.240)
And that's why you're in the miserable state you're in.
Lex Fridman (58:59.440)
So then Cain leaves, his countenance falls,
Jordan Peterson (59:03.040)
as you might expect, and Cain leaves.
Lex Fridman (59:04.960)
And he's so incensed by this because God has said,
Jordan Peterson (59:07.840)
look, your problems are of your own making.
Lex Fridman (59:11.640)
And not only that, you invited them in.
Lex Fridman (59:13.720)
And not only that, you engaged in this creatively.
Lex Fridman (59:16.480)
And not only that, you're blaming it on me.
Lex Fridman (59:18.720)
And not only that, that's making you jealous of Abel,
Lex Fridman (59:21.160)
who's your actual idol and goal.
Lex Fridman (59:23.440)
And Cain, instead of changing, kills Abel, right?
Lex Fridman (59:29.480)
And then Cain's descendants are the first people
Jordan Peterson (59:31.920)
who make weapons of war.
Lex Fridman (59:35.400)
And so that's, okay, you wanna know what I think?
Jordan Peterson (59:39.320)
That's the eternal story of mankind.
Lex Fridman (59:42.480)
And it's playing out right now,
Jordan Peterson (59:44.440)
except at a thousand times the rate.
Lex Fridman (59:47.000)
Can I present to you a difficult truth?
Jordan Peterson (59:52.320)
Perhaps not a truth, but a thought I have,
Lex Fridman (59:56.180)
that it is not always easy to know
Jordan Peterson (59:59.520)
which among us are the Cain.
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