Yannis Pappas: History and Comedy
历史与文明音乐与艺术心理与人性政治与社会技术与编程
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"I think even if he's inaccurate in the opinions of the historical community, it starts conversations,"
— Yannis Pappas （1:07:17.380）
"to hear somebody say that your ideas are brilliant and ideas matter, it's pretty powerful, especially"
— Yannis Pappas （1:15:13.540）
🎙️ 完整对话（2205 条）
Lex Fridman (00:00.000)
The following is a conversation with Yannis Papas, a comedian who cohosted the podcast
Lex Fridman (00:05.360)
History Hyenas that I came across when I was researching the Battle of Crete from WWII.
Lex Fridman (00:12.160)
He and his cohost were hilarious in their rants about history and about life.
Lex Fridman (00:18.840)
The chemistry they have is probably the best of any cohosted comedy podcast or even podcast
Lex Fridman (00:23.840)
in general that I've ever heard.
Yannis Pappas (00:26.420)
As of a few weeks ago, unfortunately, History Hyenas is no more, at least for now, because
Lex Fridman (00:32.620)
all good things must come to an end.
Lex Fridman (00:35.560)
But Yannis hosts a new podcast called Long Days with Yannis Papas, plus he has a comedy
Lex Fridman (00:41.720)
special on YouTube for free.
Yannis Pappas (00:45.240)
Quick mention of our sponsors, WineAxis, Blinkist, Magic Spoon, and Indeed.
Lex Fridman (00:51.040)
Check them out in the description to support this podcast.
Yannis Pappas (00:54.760)
As a side note, let me say that some of you have noticed that I have not spoken with too
Lex Fridman (00:59.680)
many computer scientists, physicists, biologists, or engineers recently.
Yannis Pappas (01:03.920)
The reason has to do mostly with the risk aversion of many of these folks in the time
Lex Fridman (01:08.520)
of COVID, especially as they get closer to taking the vaccine.
Yannis Pappas (01:12.480)
I'm tested several times a week and still some people are just more willing than others
Lex Fridman (01:17.340)
to have an in person conversation in these times.
Yannis Pappas (01:20.960)
I only do these podcasts in person because I look for the possibility of a genuine human
Lex Fridman (01:26.080)
connection.
Yannis Pappas (01:27.080)
I'm willing to sacrifice a lot for that.
Yannis Pappas (01:30.300)
Maybe it's silly, but I look for the magic that Charles Bukowski writes about in his
Yannis Pappas (01:35.260)
poem Nirvana.
Yannis Pappas (01:36.800)
The magic that is somehow in the air on those rare occasions when two people meet, talk,
Lex Fridman (01:42.160)
and you notice that while on the surface you may be worlds apart, you're still somehow
Lex Fridman (01:47.880)
woven from the same fabric.
Yannis Pappas (01:50.800)
I've had that with many guests, Jim Keller comes to mind, but many others as well.
Lex Fridman (01:55.800)
I'm an AI person, machine learning, robotics, computer science is my passion.
Yannis Pappas (02:01.280)
Trust me, I can't wait to be having more technical conversations again, but I will
Yannis Pappas (02:05.400)
also continue to mix in comedians, musicians, historians, and of course, wise all seeing
Yannis Pappas (02:11.280)
sages like Giannis Papas and Tim Dillon, just to keep it, as Tim likes to say, fun.
Yannis Pappas (02:19.600)
This is the Lex Friedman podcast, and here is my conversation with Giannis Papas.
Yannis Pappas (02:26.200)
You've cohosted, until recently, an amazing history comedy podcast called The History
Lex Fridman (02:32.400)
Hyenas.
Lex Fridman (02:33.840)
So you're a bit of a student of history?
Lex Fridman (02:35.880)
Yeah, an F student of history.
Yannis Pappas (02:38.440)
F student.
Lex Fridman (02:39.440)
Okay, I thought it was more like a D minus.
Yannis Pappas (02:40.880)
D minus, yeah.
Lex Fridman (02:41.880)
Okay.
Yannis Pappas (02:42.880)
Still got to repeat the grade if you get all D minuses.
Lex Fridman (02:44.560)
I actually had a.67 GPA average my freshman year and I had to do it again.
Yannis Pappas (02:49.140)
This podcast is going to be the spectrum of human intelligence.
Lex Fridman (02:53.200)
It runs the gamut from there to here.
Lex Fridman (02:55.040)
So this is going to set the low bar.
Lex Fridman (02:57.000)
I'm barely sliding into human, I'm closer to chimp.
Lex Fridman (03:00.880)
And I bring that up that you're also friends with the great, the powerful Tim Dillon.
Lex Fridman (03:08.560)
So let's talk about power and the corrupting effects of power.
Yannis Pappas (03:14.680)
Sometimes I look at Tim Dillon as he grows in power.
Lex Fridman (03:16.880)
Oh, I thought you meant in size.
Yannis Pappas (03:19.520)
Well, size, I think they're correlated.
Lex Fridman (03:21.800)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (03:22.800)
I saw him, I've been in Austin a couple of days, I saw him once, we had eight meals in
Lex Fridman (03:26.240)
one day.
Yannis Pappas (03:27.240)
Eight meals.
Lex Fridman (03:28.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (03:29.240)
So I feel like I've been here longer than I have just because of the meals with Dillon.
Lex Fridman (03:32.360)
Kid likes biscuits and barbecue.
Yannis Pappas (03:34.360)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (03:35.360)
So he's more like, see, I was imagining Putin or somebody like that.
Yannis Pappas (03:38.200)
He's more like the North Korean dictator.
Lex Fridman (03:39.880)
Okay.
Yannis Pappas (03:40.880)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (03:41.880)
All right.
Yannis Pappas (03:42.880)
They get along great, those two.
Lex Fridman (03:43.880)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (03:44.880)
I mean, Tim Dillon and King Jong Un would be like, they could make like a buddy cop
Lex Fridman (03:48.540)
movie.
Yannis Pappas (03:49.540)
They would get along like Lethal Weapon.
Lex Fridman (03:50.540)
That would be a good pitch movie.
Yannis Pappas (03:52.160)
Great podcast.
Lex Fridman (03:53.160)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (03:54.160)
That would be a great podcast.
Lex Fridman (03:55.160)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (03:56.160)
So much to talk about.
Lex Fridman (03:57.160)
So many similar ideas about the world.
Lex Fridman (03:59.360)
So what do you think the world would look like if Tim Dillon was given absolute power?
Yannis Pappas (04:05.280)
He seems like a person that's an interesting study of the corrupting effects of power.
Yannis Pappas (04:10.960)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (04:11.960)
You don't want to give him power.
Yannis Pappas (04:12.960)
You don't want, I don't even want him wearing a suit.
Lex Fridman (04:15.560)
Like I want a guy who's as thoughtful and educated as you wearing a suit.
Yannis Pappas (04:19.500)
Like cause you know, suits corrupt you.
Lex Fridman (04:21.200)
You put that suit on, you start feeling that power.
Yannis Pappas (04:22.960)
You start.
Lex Fridman (04:23.960)
Definitely.
Yannis Pappas (04:24.960)
It's like, you know, yeah.
Lex Fridman (04:25.960)
I don't even want Tim Dillon in a suit.
Yannis Pappas (04:26.960)
Power would, he would kill people.
Lex Fridman (04:28.040)
He'd get rid of anything that he deemed.
Yannis Pappas (04:30.960)
I mean, if you made a lobster roll and it wasn't up to Tim Dillon's standard, he would
Lex Fridman (04:34.200)
have you executed.
Yannis Pappas (04:35.200)
The entire restaurant staff is just gone.
Lex Fridman (04:38.440)
He would have people below his food standard execute.
Yannis Pappas (04:41.280)
There'd be programs, not of people who are political dissidents, but of people who don't
Lex Fridman (04:45.960)
meet his food standard.
Yannis Pappas (04:47.300)
His cuisine standard is high and he's usually right.
Lex Fridman (04:50.480)
Do you think power does corrupt people?
Yannis Pappas (04:52.480)
Yes.
Yannis Pappas (04:53.480)
Like one of the reasons we mentioned offline Joe Rogan, he's been an inspiration to me
Yannis Pappas (04:56.720)
cause he gets, he gets, if you get power, just more famous and famous and yes, probably
Lex Fridman (05:02.520)
a bit of power in terms of influence and he's still pretty much the same guy.
Yannis Pappas (05:07.340)
I'm not sure that's going to be true for everybody.
Lex Fridman (05:09.200)
Do you ever think, ask yourself that question?
Yannis Pappas (05:11.480)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (05:12.480)
He's a rare breed.
Yannis Pappas (05:13.480)
He's like a benign king.
Yannis Pappas (05:15.440)
Most people I meet who are like really powerful are like douchebags and that's how they got
Yannis Pappas (05:19.200)
there.
Yannis Pappas (05:20.200)
I think that's, psychopaths have the advantage because they don't have feelings and Joe's
Yannis Pappas (05:23.880)
a rare example.
Lex Fridman (05:24.880)
He's just a powerhouse of will and he, I do think about that.
Yannis Pappas (05:29.720)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (05:30.720)
I think I should be stopped right now.
Yannis Pappas (05:32.880)
Just stop me right now because yeah, power for me, I would, when people get power, they
Lex Fridman (05:37.240)
indulge.
Yannis Pappas (05:38.240)
It doesn't change anyone.
Yannis Pappas (05:39.240)
It just reveals your darkest, you know, people aren't supposed to have anything they want.
Yannis Pappas (05:44.080)
You got to be able to struggle for everything.
Lex Fridman (05:45.540)
So I would have a harem, I'd be like a Roman dictator.
Yannis Pappas (05:48.360)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (05:49.360)
I'd be like a Roman emperor.
Yannis Pappas (05:50.360)
I mean, people called them emperors.
Lex Fridman (05:51.360)
They were dictators.
Yannis Pappas (05:52.360)
The most effective leaders are dictators.
Lex Fridman (05:53.360)
I hope we get back to that.
Yannis Pappas (05:55.140)
Democracy hasn't worked.
Lex Fridman (05:56.140)
I'm ready for a secession of Caesars and I want to start with AOC.
Yannis Pappas (06:00.040)
That's true.
Lex Fridman (06:02.680)
Dictators get the job done.
Yannis Pappas (06:03.680)
They do.
Lex Fridman (06:04.680)
They do.
Yannis Pappas (06:05.680)
At a certain point you got, that's why social workers can only get you so far.
Lex Fridman (06:07.280)
You need action.
Yannis Pappas (06:08.520)
I was a social worker for five years and all you do is ask about medications and you don't
Lex Fridman (06:14.160)
solve anything.
Yannis Pappas (06:15.160)
I do ask myself of that, like, cause I'm more in the tech space of constructing systems
Lex Fridman (06:21.740)
that prevent me from being corrupt.
Yannis Pappas (06:23.840)
Cause right now I'm all about love and all about those kinds of things.
Lex Fridman (06:27.800)
But I wonder, you said like, it just reveals the darkness.
Yannis Pappas (06:31.980)
The problem is we might not be aware of our own darkness.
Lex Fridman (06:35.500)
I have the same feeling about money actually.
Yannis Pappas (06:37.600)
I've been avoiding thinking about money, like basically constructing my moral system, my
Lex Fridman (06:44.480)
moral compass around money.
Yannis Pappas (06:46.080)
It's like the moment I feel a little too happy about the idea of owning some cool shiny thing,
Yannis Pappas (06:54.600)
I started to think, okay, I'm not going to own that shiny thing cause I'm afraid of the
Yannis Pappas (06:58.800)
slippery slope of it.
Lex Fridman (07:00.160)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (07:01.160)
You ever think about that kind of stuff?
Lex Fridman (07:02.160)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (07:03.160)
The thing about the capitalist system is it puts sort of a profit motive above beauty.
Lex Fridman (07:11.160)
And you notice when you see certain cities, especially in the old days where like buildings
Yannis Pappas (07:15.840)
used to be beautiful and now they're just like boxes, they throw a kid up and it's just
Lex Fridman (07:20.760)
for all profit margin.
Yannis Pappas (07:24.240)
It's the illusion of permanence that, you know, it's like, oh, let me get as much money
Lex Fridman (07:27.880)
as I can.
Yannis Pappas (07:28.880)
You're like, yeah.
Yannis Pappas (07:29.880)
You know, my dad used to say, you know, everyone, it's a cliche, but you can't take it with
Yannis Pappas (07:32.720)
you.
Lex Fridman (07:33.720)
So it's kind of, it's, it's comical to me that we're here trying to get this infinite
Yannis Pappas (07:37.120)
amount.
Yannis Pappas (07:38.120)
Like it's like Sisyphus, we're all trying to climb this hill, but I mean, the rock's
Yannis Pappas (07:41.600)
going to fall on us.
Lex Fridman (07:42.600)
So I think that's a healthy outlook.
Yannis Pappas (07:44.000)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (07:45.000)
My dad always used to say before he passed, you know, he would say, you can't, you have
Yannis Pappas (07:48.160)
to survive not only physically, but you have to survive emotionally.
Lex Fridman (07:51.840)
I think a lot of people forget about the emotional part of a survival.
Yannis Pappas (07:56.120)
You have to survive emotionally and humor and, and, and understanding reality in its
Lex Fridman (08:01.800)
objective context helps with that.
Yannis Pappas (08:04.080)
Accepting reality as this ephemeral thing that you're really just a part of, but not
Lex Fridman (08:11.480)
as significant as your ego wants you to believe is a, is a start.
Yannis Pappas (08:15.120)
That's a good foundation for surviving emotionally.
Lex Fridman (08:18.320)
What's that mean?
Lex Fridman (08:19.320)
Surviving emotionally?
Lex Fridman (08:20.320)
Like what, what's an ideal life look like while you're thriving?
Yannis Pappas (08:23.440)
You can't take things too seriously.
Lex Fridman (08:25.100)
You can't, because they're ephemeral.
Yannis Pappas (08:27.600)
They're not permanent.
Lex Fridman (08:28.600)
Nothing's permanent.
Yannis Pappas (08:29.600)
Your bank account's not permanent.
Lex Fridman (08:30.600)
Your abilities aren't permanent.
Yannis Pappas (08:32.600)
Nothing's permanent.
Lex Fridman (08:33.600)
Your abilities aren't permanent.
Yannis Pappas (08:35.080)
Your memory's not permanent.
Lex Fridman (08:36.080)
Your, your, your dick getting hard is not permanent.
Yannis Pappas (08:38.080)
Can I curse on this or is this go out to, yeah, you can curse to your heart's content.
Lex Fridman (08:43.120)
Okay.
Yannis Pappas (08:44.120)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (08:45.120)
I mean, gender's not even permanent anymore.
Yannis Pappas (08:46.120)
I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna change maybe and live my second half as another gender
Lex Fridman (08:48.720)
just to have, I'm bored with this gender.
Lex Fridman (08:51.240)
So it's like nothing is permanent.
Lex Fridman (08:53.420)
And so accepting that emotionally is a good start to being more flexible.
Yannis Pappas (08:59.360)
You gotta be flexible.
Lex Fridman (09:00.640)
Like my dad used to say, anything too stiff snaps.
Yannis Pappas (09:03.240)
You gotta, you know, it's a cliche and people have said it a bunch of different ways, but
Lex Fridman (09:07.040)
Bruce Lee's right, man.
Yannis Pappas (09:08.040)
Be water.
Lex Fridman (09:09.040)
Be water.
Yannis Pappas (09:10.040)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (09:11.040)
Bukowski has this quote about love, that love is a fog that fades with the first light of
Yannis Pappas (09:18.000)
reality.
Lex Fridman (09:19.000)
So he's, he's a romantic, that guy.
Lex Fridman (09:21.920)
But that even love is a thing that just doesn't last very long.
Lex Fridman (09:25.160)
No.
Yannis Pappas (09:26.160)
Um, you know, some people would disagree with that.
Lex Fridman (09:28.600)
Maybe it morphs, like, like, like water, it changes, right?
Yannis Pappas (09:32.280)
It might not be, it might not be this, cause he's mostly just, uh, loved like prostitutes,
Lex Fridman (09:37.280)
I think.
Yannis Pappas (09:38.280)
So,
Lex Fridman (09:39.280)
The best kind of love.
Yannis Pappas (09:40.280)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (09:41.280)
No demand.
Yannis Pappas (09:42.280)
No, uh, responsibilities.
Lex Fridman (09:43.280)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (09:44.280)
It's a financial transaction.
Lex Fridman (09:45.280)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (09:46.280)
Uh, ephemeral as ever.
Lex Fridman (09:48.020)
You mentioned your dad.
Yannis Pappas (09:49.960)
He passed away, uh, two, uh, a year and a half ago.
Lex Fridman (09:53.760)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (09:54.760)
What did you learn from him?
Lex Fridman (09:56.320)
I love my dad.
Yannis Pappas (09:57.720)
My dad, I would say my dad was my, my hero.
Yannis Pappas (10:00.720)
He was just, uh, my dad really embodied those values and I think, um, for better or worse,
Yannis Pappas (10:05.840)
it's made me who I am.
Yannis Pappas (10:06.840)
He's, he, uh, my dad was, was a painter, he was a lawyer, he was, uh, he was, uh, you
Yannis Pappas (10:13.400)
know, a Lieutenant in the military.
Lex Fridman (10:15.320)
New Yorker.
Yannis Pappas (10:16.320)
New Yorker.
Lex Fridman (10:17.320)
Born and bred Brooklyn.
Yannis Pappas (10:18.320)
His dad, his dad, you know, uh, surprise owned a diner.
Lex Fridman (10:21.080)
So that's, that's sort of the Greek passport.
Yannis Pappas (10:24.280)
That's the immigration passport for Greeks into America.
Lex Fridman (10:27.320)
And, um, yeah, my dad played football.
Yannis Pappas (10:29.480)
He just, my dad did what he wanted.
Yannis Pappas (10:31.440)
He lived as he wanted at all costs and I think I got that from him for better or worse.
Yannis Pappas (10:35.320)
I think it's hurt me in my pursuits.
Yannis Pappas (10:37.920)
Uh, if you consider money and fame, uh, to be paramount, you know, I, I've always done
Lex Fridman (10:44.920)
what I wanted and if I stopped wanting to do it, I just stopped doing it.
Lex Fridman (10:47.760)
I think I got that from my dad.
Lex Fridman (10:48.880)
So maybe for better or worse, that's what I learned from him.
Lex Fridman (10:52.120)
But that's a real currency, you know, feeling like you're in love with what you're doing
Yannis Pappas (10:55.980)
when you're doing it, maybe perhaps that's worth more than money.
Lex Fridman (10:59.440)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (11:01.120)
You miss him?
Lex Fridman (11:02.120)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (11:03.120)
Every day.
Lex Fridman (11:04.120)
Every day.
Lex Fridman (11:05.120)
But I'm happy that, uh, he, he got 91 years.
Lex Fridman (11:08.880)
It's very rare.
Yannis Pappas (11:09.880)
I mean, he smoked for 60 years.
Yannis Pappas (11:12.200)
Talk about like a guy who was an outlier and he smoked like 60 years, like packs.
Yannis Pappas (11:16.160)
I mean, and he didn't die from that.
Lex Fridman (11:18.360)
He died.
Yannis Pappas (11:19.360)
He had a prostate cancer, which is the way men should go.
Lex Fridman (11:21.560)
Your dick should give out.
Yannis Pappas (11:22.680)
It should start from the dick.
Yannis Pappas (11:24.160)
I mean, we focus so much of our life on the dick that that's the way that's a successful
Yannis Pappas (11:29.440)
life and that's why every man eventually gets prostate cancer because that is the universe's
Yannis Pappas (11:33.280)
way of saying like the thing you focused on the most is you put the most energy into is
Yannis Pappas (11:38.080)
the thing that's spent and it's going to, your, your rotting is going to start there.
Lex Fridman (11:42.240)
So that's a successful life and it just spread all over his body and he slowly died.
Yannis Pappas (11:47.320)
I was with him when he died and that meant a lot to me because me and my brother weren't
Yannis Pappas (11:50.760)
talking at the time cause we're Greeks, we're, we're talking again, but that's how it is.
Lex Fridman (11:55.520)
You got a few brothers, right?
Yannis Pappas (11:56.520)
I got two brothers, but I wanted to make sure I was with him when he died and I got lucky
Lex Fridman (12:01.260)
and I was in the room with him when he died.
Lex Fridman (12:03.960)
You were in the room with your brother and you weren't.
Yannis Pappas (12:06.400)
No, my brother wasn't there.
Lex Fridman (12:07.480)
We were kind of doing shifts.
Yannis Pappas (12:08.600)
I was, I was there.
Yannis Pappas (12:09.680)
I spent the night, the dad, my, the night my dad died, he died in the early in the morning
Lex Fridman (12:14.080)
and I heard the death rattle last breath and it was just, I think it was, uh, I, he knew
Yannis Pappas (12:19.600)
I was there and, uh, I think that just probably meant something to him and I'm just glad I
Yannis Pappas (12:24.540)
was there.
Lex Fridman (12:25.540)
Does that make you sad that, uh, life is ephemeral, like you said, that, that you die?
Yannis Pappas (12:30.600)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (12:31.600)
What do you think about your own death?
Lex Fridman (12:32.600)
You meditate on that?
Yannis Pappas (12:33.880)
I think it, I think the actual, if there is a point to life, it's to, um, hopefully not
Yannis Pappas (12:40.440)
fear death, to accept reality.
Lex Fridman (12:43.920)
I think that's important.
Yannis Pappas (12:44.960)
I think so much goes awry in the human condition when we lose touch with reality.
Yannis Pappas (12:50.320)
Every, uh, political system that's led to mass murder and everything, I think because
Yannis Pappas (12:55.440)
it's because the, the tenants of those political philosophies ended up being utopian.
Lex Fridman (13:02.520)
They were detached from reality, detached from nature.
Lex Fridman (13:05.920)
And so I think it's, it's very important to accept and acknowledge your own mortality.
Yannis Pappas (13:11.000)
I think it's the foundation for what makes a good person, a moral person, um, a contributing
Yannis Pappas (13:16.080)
member of society because it's true.
Lex Fridman (13:18.440)
True things should be the foundation of all things.
Yannis Pappas (13:21.400)
If, if, if what you believe is based on illusion, you're going to end up doing destruction.
Yannis Pappas (13:26.220)
Whether that destruction is on a scale of one to 10, you are going to be destructive
Yannis Pappas (13:30.280)
because it's not real.
Lex Fridman (13:31.280)
It's a fantasy.
Yannis Pappas (13:32.280)
It doesn't exist.
Lex Fridman (13:33.280)
See, the thing is the truth is about, I don't think you can ever reach truth.
Yannis Pappas (13:36.940)
Truth is about like constantly digging and to push back on your idea that you should
Lex Fridman (13:40.720)
accept death.
Yannis Pappas (13:41.880)
I think the more honest response to death, so the least honest is to run away from it,
Lex Fridman (13:47.040)
create illusions that help you imagine that there's not a death.
Yannis Pappas (13:51.980)
Uh, the next is to accept it, but the real honest one is to fear it because I, I, I mean,
Yannis Pappas (13:59.680)
I'm, I'm with, uh, Ernest Becker is a philosopher, uh, wrote a book called Denial of Death.
Yannis Pappas (14:04.960)
He says that the, like much of the human condition is based in the fear of mortality.
Lex Fridman (14:10.560)
That we like, that's, that's the creative force of the human energy.
Lex Fridman (14:15.080)
Like Freud said, do you want to sleep with your mother?
Lex Fridman (14:17.320)
He said, no, that's not what motivates you.
Yannis Pappas (14:20.240)
Maybe his mom wasn't hot though.
Yannis Pappas (14:21.480)
I mean, or he wasn't Greek because apparently at a poll, we found that we found that all
Yannis Pappas (14:26.280)
things good and bad.
Lex Fridman (14:27.280)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (14:28.280)
Thanks.
Lex Fridman (14:29.280)
Thanks for that.
Yannis Pappas (14:30.280)
Thanks.
Lex Fridman (14:31.280)
I just don't know if his mom was a looker or not.
Yannis Pappas (14:32.280)
I mean, I'd have to Google it.
Lex Fridman (14:33.280)
All right.
Yannis Pappas (14:34.280)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (14:35.280)
I'll look up on Google images.
Yannis Pappas (14:37.000)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (14:38.000)
But I think the honest, as he says, the thing that we run away from is that there's a terror.
Yannis Pappas (14:44.440)
He calls it like terror.
Lex Fridman (14:45.920)
Uh, there's something called terror management theory.
Yannis Pappas (14:48.600)
That's some philosophers after him followed on that we're basically trying to run away
Lex Fridman (14:54.040)
from this fear and acceptance is actually creating an illusion for yourself.
Yannis Pappas (15:00.040)
Like you can actually accept something as terrifying as this.
Lex Fridman (15:03.560)
So he's more with the stoics, the stoic constantly meditate on their death.
Lex Fridman (15:07.320)
I mean, they, what does that mean?
Yannis Pappas (15:09.480)
I mean, it's kind of, it's, you know, acceptance of death isn't a thing you do like on a Monday
Lex Fridman (15:15.640)
and then you're done is a thing you constantly have to meditate on, like reminding yourself
Lex Fridman (15:22.280)
like this ride is over.
Yannis Pappas (15:23.840)
It could be over today.
Lex Fridman (15:25.280)
And that's something you're, if you think about every single day, it gives you an appreciation
Yannis Pappas (15:29.360)
of Woody Allen movies, at least it gives you appreciation of basically everything, including
Yannis Pappas (15:34.920)
Woody Allen movies, which shows you how deep your appreciation for life could be.
Yannis Pappas (15:39.680)
I've actually haven't been following much about what Woody Allen's, but apparently he's
Lex Fridman (15:44.480)
been a troublemaker through most of his life.
Yannis Pappas (15:47.000)
He's yeah.
Lex Fridman (15:48.000)
I mean, you know, he's caused a little bit of strife.
Yannis Pappas (15:49.600)
He's left a little, uh, yeah, he's left a little confusion in his wake for sure.
Lex Fridman (15:53.400)
But I mean, you know, that's another one separate the art from the artist.
Yannis Pappas (15:58.040)
He's got, I mean, the guys will go down in history as the greatest he's made, I mean,
Yannis Pappas (16:02.800)
maybe a year and they're all, you can always find something good about each movie, like
Yannis Pappas (16:06.880)
the dialogue or whatever.
Lex Fridman (16:08.440)
Um, I love what you're saying.
Yannis Pappas (16:09.980)
It's interesting, but the only thing I would say to push back a little bit since we're
Yannis Pappas (16:12.480)
playing a little table tennis here is, um, I don't know if it's a choice to fear death.
Yannis Pappas (16:17.560)
That's more of an, it seems more instinctual.
Yannis Pappas (16:19.720)
It seems like something that nature wants you to do because I've been in positions where
Yannis Pappas (16:24.440)
I thought I was going to die.
Yannis Pappas (16:25.480)
Like I've been shot and I had those moments and then nature also, uh, you know, kicks
Yannis Pappas (16:31.960)
in an instinct, which is acceptance where you kind of, I don't know, it's a chemical
Lex Fridman (16:36.280)
release or whatever.
Yannis Pappas (16:37.280)
I don't know, you know, we're all, we're robots basically.
Lex Fridman (16:39.960)
So some sort of chemical is released that protects you, but there is an acceptance.
Yannis Pappas (16:44.320)
I don't know how much, uh, of it was a conscious choice, probably very little.
Lex Fridman (16:48.640)
Um, and that's the point I'm making is it's, it's instinctual.
Yannis Pappas (16:51.520)
We don't really have a choice in fearing death.
Lex Fridman (16:53.640)
Otherwise there would be no progression.
Yannis Pappas (16:55.520)
We wouldn't all life seems to want to survive, uh, not by choice, but by instinct.
Lex Fridman (17:02.840)
So he, he argues that the fear is not the instinctual of, it's not the animalistic stuff.
Yannis Pappas (17:07.360)
That's the thing that makes us special is the, what humans are able to do is to have
Lex Fridman (17:11.960)
a knowledge that we're going to die one day.
Yannis Pappas (17:14.120)
Animals don't have that animals.
Lex Fridman (17:15.720)
Fear is instinctual.
Lex Fridman (17:16.720)
It's like, Holy shit, what's that sound over there?
Yannis Pappas (17:19.620)
He says, we're actually able to contemplate the fact that this ride ends and that that
Yannis Pappas (17:25.360)
kind of cognitive construct is difficult for us to deal with.
Lex Fridman (17:29.400)
Like what the hell does that mean?
Yannis Pappas (17:31.480)
Like just to, just to think about, it's going to be over at a certain point, it's just over
Lex Fridman (17:38.880)
lights out.
Yannis Pappas (17:39.880)
Like it's very difficult to kind of load that into whatever this like little brain we got.
Lex Fridman (17:46.920)
Like, what does that actually mean?
Yannis Pappas (17:49.160)
Maybe that's what gives everything meaning.
Lex Fridman (17:51.480)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (17:52.480)
Because if everything lasted forever, if, uh, if this went on ad infinitum, there would
Lex Fridman (17:56.720)
be no meaning to it.
Yannis Pappas (17:57.720)
I'd be like, Hey, if I don't see you tomorrow, I'll see in a million years, there would be
Lex Fridman (18:00.640)
no meaning.
Yannis Pappas (18:01.640)
There'll be no urgency.
Lex Fridman (18:02.640)
There would be no feelings.
Yannis Pappas (18:03.640)
There'd be no, uh, nothing of magnitude or superficiality.
Lex Fridman (18:07.760)
It would all just be this kind of, it would be torture.
Yannis Pappas (18:10.960)
It would actually, that would actually be torture to be here forever.
Lex Fridman (18:13.960)
I mean, I'm already sick of this place and I'm just in my forties.
Yannis Pappas (18:17.680)
Like I'm done.
Lex Fridman (18:18.680)
I'm sick of me.
Yannis Pappas (18:19.680)
I'm sick of everything.
Yannis Pappas (18:20.680)
You know, a lot of people, when they talk about mortality, they consider, they consider
Yannis Pappas (18:27.440)
mortality appealing because you get a chance to do basically all these things you might
Yannis Pappas (18:33.840)
not get a chance to do otherwise, like all the kinds of travel broadly, explore, read
Yannis Pappas (18:38.460)
every book, explore every idea, do every hobby, all those kinds of things.
Yannis Pappas (18:43.240)
The idea I was talking to mentioned, uh, the reality of being immortal would be more likely,
Yannis Pappas (18:50.760)
I like this idea, more likely would be you just sitting there doing nothing because,
Lex Fridman (18:57.600)
and putting off all that travel and exploration to later because you'll always have time.
Lex Fridman (19:03.280)
And so what you're going to have, what actual immortality would look like for a bunch of
Lex Fridman (19:07.080)
humans is people sitting there doing nothing.
Yannis Pappas (19:09.680)
It would be like a Greek caffineer just sitting around drinking coffee.
Lex Fridman (19:12.800)
I love it.
Yannis Pappas (19:13.800)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (19:14.800)
I mean, it's a lazy man's paradise.
Yannis Pappas (19:16.280)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (19:17.280)
But it's so interesting because that, that's, that rings true to me for what humans are
Yannis Pappas (19:21.320)
like is we'll basically just put off all those exciting adventures and just be lazy, become
Yannis Pappas (19:27.040)
lazier and lazier and lazier because you'll always have a chance to do all the exciting
Yannis Pappas (19:30.520)
things and we'll just get, we'll basically become Tim Dillon.
Lex Fridman (19:33.720)
We just sit there and have a podcast and that's it.
Yannis Pappas (19:36.720)
He works hard.
Lex Fridman (19:37.720)
Um, yeah.
Yannis Pappas (19:38.720)
I mean, that sounds actually like heaven, dude.
Lex Fridman (19:40.480)
That's speaking to my heart really.
Yannis Pappas (19:41.640)
I mean, I'm at heart, I'm a very lazy person.
Lex Fridman (19:44.720)
I always try to find ways to lie down.
Yannis Pappas (19:47.680)
Like if I'm sitting, I'll figure out a way to kind of contort myself to later.
Lex Fridman (19:51.460)
That's an interesting thing to like in, yeah.
Yannis Pappas (19:54.000)
If you can always push something off, yeah, that, I like that.
Lex Fridman (19:59.360)
I think that's heaven.
Yannis Pappas (1:00:00.020)
it is.
Lex Fridman (1:00:01.020)
It's beyond my comprehension.
Lex Fridman (1:00:02.020)
But with Chris, there was this magical chemistry that, you know, I have chemistry with a lot
Lex Fridman (1:00:07.900)
of people and it can be funny and I feel zero chemistry here.
Yannis Pappas (1:00:11.540)
This is great.
Lex Fridman (1:00:12.540)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (1:00:13.540)
It's a little bit more intelligent than what me and Chris did.
Lex Fridman (1:00:17.100)
But you know, me and Chris, I think we connected on the funny bone.
Yannis Pappas (1:00:21.660)
Like I, he, I found him so funny and we found the same things funny.
Lex Fridman (1:00:26.900)
And from that, these organic expressions came from some part of our brains that was created
Yannis Pappas (1:00:33.360)
from this chemistry.
Lex Fridman (1:00:34.360)
And yeah, we just developed this language and this cult following and people were really
Yannis Pappas (1:00:38.520)
upset when we ended.
Lex Fridman (1:00:40.260)
But it was the right thing to end because like all things that end, it was kind of done
Yannis Pappas (1:00:44.380)
a few episodes even before we finished.
Lex Fridman (1:00:46.540)
And I think we pulled the plug before it started rolling downhill, like all, you know, like
Yannis Pappas (1:00:52.380)
all great flings, you know, there's your long relation, long marriages are boring and comfortable.
Yannis Pappas (1:00:59.100)
The one you really like fucking always ends abruptly and sadly and, but you always look
Yannis Pappas (1:01:05.540)
back and you jerk off to it.
Lex Fridman (1:01:07.540)
And so you guys made love and we made, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:01:10.580)
So it's like, it was like a hot fling with me and him and it was intense and we burned
Lex Fridman (1:01:16.100)
the candle at both ends.
Lex Fridman (1:01:17.940)
And it was, I think that podcast was meant to be three years and maybe people will go
Lex Fridman (1:01:24.060)
back and appreciate it and listen to it over and over again.
Lex Fridman (1:01:27.140)
And I think the new things we do, people will love, I'm doing long days now, that podcast
Lex Fridman (1:01:31.460)
and people seem to enjoy it.
Yannis Pappas (1:01:32.460)
I've been really enjoying the long days on YouTube.
Yannis Pappas (1:01:35.180)
I just found myself just like staring at you ranting for, same with Tim Dillon, I really
Yannis Pappas (1:01:41.500)
enjoyed the, whatever those rants are, the genius of just one thing after the other.
Lex Fridman (1:01:45.660)
But definitely the chemistry, almost as a study, I remember the reason I first started
Yannis Pappas (1:01:50.860)
listening to it, I was trying to get a perspective on certain historical moments.
Lex Fridman (1:01:57.540)
Like it was interesting.
Yannis Pappas (1:01:58.540)
I tuned in to learn history.
Lex Fridman (1:02:00.420)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (1:02:01.420)
I came for the history and like stayed for the chaos and the crack open and clean out.
Lex Fridman (1:02:08.820)
And yeah, this, it was almost, I listened to Rogan like this sometimes.
Lex Fridman (1:02:14.620)
I'll relisten to an episode to try to understand why was this so fun to listen to?
Lex Fridman (1:02:23.940)
It's almost like trying to analyze humor or something like that.
Lex Fridman (1:02:26.420)
But it's nice from a conversational perspective, like why was this so easy to listen to?
Lex Fridman (1:02:32.860)
And with History of Hyenas, like why is the chemistry so good?
Yannis Pappas (1:02:37.060)
It's so, it's weird.
Lex Fridman (1:02:39.300)
It's weird.
Yannis Pappas (1:02:40.300)
Cause there's not many podcasts like, I don't know any with the chemistry like that.
Lex Fridman (1:02:44.300)
It's interesting.
Lex Fridman (1:02:45.300)
And it's kind of sad that the fling with a prostitute in Vegas has to end, you know?
Lex Fridman (1:02:54.300)
But that's what makes it special.
Yannis Pappas (1:02:55.300)
It's the Bukowski thing with the fog.
Lex Fridman (1:02:58.340)
The British Office, one of my favorite shows was that it ended very quick.
Yannis Pappas (1:03:03.260)
It's only a couple of seasons or something like that.
Lex Fridman (1:03:05.940)
And that was tragic, but that took guts to just end it.
Yannis Pappas (1:03:09.800)
Given all the money you could have made, given all the, you just end it.
Lex Fridman (1:03:13.260)
And that's what makes it truly special.
Yannis Pappas (1:03:14.980)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:03:15.980)
And I'll tell you, man, I'll just emphasize it.
Yannis Pappas (1:03:17.380)
Cause I marvel at it too.
Yannis Pappas (1:03:19.980)
Cause as a guy who tries to always figure out what the causes of things, I gotta be
Yannis Pappas (1:03:24.940)
honest, man.
Yannis Pappas (1:03:25.940)
Looking back on that, even with retrospective wisdom, you know, that 2020 hindsight, we've
Yannis Pappas (1:03:29.580)
been done a couple of months now, it's something that I can't explain.
Lex Fridman (1:03:35.620)
It's something that I don't know how you quantify it.
Yannis Pappas (1:03:38.000)
I don't know how you describe it.
Lex Fridman (1:03:40.620)
It's musical.
Yannis Pappas (1:03:41.620)
It's really kind of rhythmic.
Lex Fridman (1:03:44.580)
Maybe like a Netflix show about history.
Yannis Pappas (1:03:48.580)
That's in the future with the two of you.
Yannis Pappas (1:03:52.620)
You guys will meet like the way you meet with a fling like a decade from now at a diner
Lex Fridman (1:03:59.220)
and you're both way fatter and uglier and then you just reminisce over some cigarettes
Lex Fridman (1:04:05.780)
and coffee.
Yannis Pappas (1:04:06.780)
It could be.
Lex Fridman (1:04:07.780)
Yeah, it could be.
Yannis Pappas (1:04:08.780)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:04:09.780)
It's definitely a classic podcast that people can go back and appreciate.
Yannis Pappas (1:04:13.220)
It's fast paced and it was unique.
Lex Fridman (1:04:16.060)
What was it like to research for, I mean, it was really scholarly, the depth of research
Yannis Pappas (1:04:21.140)
that you performed.
Lex Fridman (1:04:23.000)
It sometimes felt like you almost read an entire Wikipedia article beforehand.
Yannis Pappas (1:04:29.780)
Or like.
Lex Fridman (1:04:30.780)
Exactly true.
Yannis Pappas (1:04:31.780)
We were, we were one fan, we attracted such funny people to that podcast and the fans
Lex Fridman (1:04:38.340)
were so funny and one fan called us nicknamed as Wikipedia sluts.
Lex Fridman (1:04:43.300)
And so it just stuck.
Lex Fridman (1:04:44.420)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (1:04:45.420)
We just would read Wikipedia.
Lex Fridman (1:04:46.420)
I would do a lot more research than Chris.
Lex Fridman (1:04:48.860)
And so I would actually, you know, once in a while he'd get into it too.
Lex Fridman (1:04:52.580)
But for very interesting episodes, I got some subject matter would just pull me in.
Yannis Pappas (1:04:58.300)
Like Bernie Madoff, just to think of one that was recent, it was one of our last ones.
Lex Fridman (1:05:01.500)
And I think one of our better episodes and I'm glad that it kind of ended after that
Yannis Pappas (1:05:06.260)
because it was rare to, I think we started to slip a little bit.
Yannis Pappas (1:05:09.860)
I got fascinated and I got, I did a lot of research for Bernie Madoff, but usually, yeah,
Yannis Pappas (1:05:13.980)
we'd pull up Wikipedia and we'd have fun.
Lex Fridman (1:05:15.580)
We were sort of the antithesis of Dan Carlin.
Yannis Pappas (1:05:17.900)
I mean, you went to Dan Carlin for accuracy and thoughtfulness and you went to us for,
Lex Fridman (1:05:24.220)
it was a hang with history.
Yannis Pappas (1:05:26.220)
That's why history hyenas was such an appropriate name because it was, it was a little bit of
Lex Fridman (1:05:30.500)
history.
Yannis Pappas (1:05:31.500)
Some, some episodes were more hyena, more wild and a little history and some were a
Lex Fridman (1:05:35.500)
little more dense, like the battle of Crete and less hyena.
Lex Fridman (1:05:38.220)
So you were, you were always going to get both, you're either going to get a majority
Lex Fridman (1:05:41.860)
of one or the other.
Yannis Pappas (1:05:42.860)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:05:43.860)
And Dan Carlin is the lion, I guess.
Yannis Pappas (1:05:44.860)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:05:45.860)
And you guys, predictably good.
Yannis Pappas (1:05:48.260)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:05:49.260)
I mean, what, what are your thoughts about, I mean, he's a storyteller too.
Yannis Pappas (1:05:53.340)
He gets a lot of criticism for the, from the historians, quote unquote.
Lex Fridman (1:05:57.220)
That's why he likes to knock.
Yannis Pappas (1:05:59.060)
He keeps saying he's not a historian, but what's your, what are your thoughts about
Lex Fridman (1:06:04.500)
the hardcore history with Dan Carlin?
Yannis Pappas (1:06:06.180)
Like, was he an inspiration to the podcast you were doing or, or like an account, like
Yannis Pappas (1:06:15.060)
a, almost like a reverse psychology inspiration where you wanted to do some kind of opposing
Yannis Pappas (1:06:20.140)
type of podcast in history or was history always just like a, a launching pad to just
Lex Fridman (1:06:27.700)
talk shit about human nature?
Yannis Pappas (1:06:29.940)
More of the latter.
Lex Fridman (1:06:31.020)
I wasn't even aware of his podcast when we started.
Yannis Pappas (1:06:33.420)
Oh, interesting.
Lex Fridman (1:06:34.420)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:06:35.420)
And so we, it was just very organic, again, like the chemistry, me and Chris became very
Lex Fridman (1:06:39.020)
good friends.
Yannis Pappas (1:06:40.220)
We started the podcast.
Yannis Pappas (1:06:41.900)
First we did a web series called Bay Ridge Boys, which has its sort of little cult following.
Yannis Pappas (1:06:45.820)
We did like five episodes and ended it.
Lex Fridman (1:06:48.300)
And then we did the podcast and hi, hyenas were my favorite animal and I talk about them
Yannis Pappas (1:06:53.260)
passionately and I told Chris about them and then he started appreciating them and we both
Lex Fridman (1:06:57.060)
love history.
Yannis Pappas (1:06:58.060)
I majored in history.
Lex Fridman (1:06:59.060)
It's one of the things I love.
Yannis Pappas (1:07:00.060)
I go to museums all the time.
Lex Fridman (1:07:01.060)
I go to his, I do history tours, so does he.
Lex Fridman (1:07:03.420)
And so it was just sort of a natural, let's do a history podcast and it gave us something
Yannis Pappas (1:07:07.540)
to talk about each episode to sort of lean our, you know, hang our hats on and, and riff
Yannis Pappas (1:07:12.740)
off of.
Lex Fridman (1:07:13.900)
So it had nothing to do with dance.
Lex Fridman (1:07:15.500)
What I think about dance, I think it's great.
Yannis Pappas (1:07:17.380)
I think even if he's inaccurate in the opinions of the historical community, it starts conversations,
Yannis Pappas (1:07:24.700)
which is good.
Lex Fridman (1:07:25.780)
It's like this thing where people go, oh, it's dangerous rhetoric.
Yannis Pappas (1:07:28.460)
It's like, no, rhetoric only becomes dangerous when education fails.
Lex Fridman (1:07:32.500)
What's going on in America is education has failed.
Lex Fridman (1:07:35.500)
So if you call someone online dangerous, it's not him that's dangerous.
Lex Fridman (1:07:39.460)
It's the fucking stupid people that's dangerous.
Lex Fridman (1:07:41.700)
And it's the fault of this country.
Lex Fridman (1:07:42.700)
We didn't listen to Aristotle.
Yannis Pappas (1:07:44.320)
The future of a civilization depends on public education and we failed.
Lex Fridman (1:07:50.060)
Education has failed.
Yannis Pappas (1:07:51.060)
Kids are, kids are not interested in shit.
Lex Fridman (1:07:53.140)
And so in some sense, those dance podcasts and podcasts can be incredibly educational.
Yannis Pappas (1:07:59.980)
Because he's a, the storytelling that pulls you in ultimately leads to you internalizing
Yannis Pappas (1:08:07.740)
these stories and like remembering them and thinking through them and all those kinds
Yannis Pappas (1:08:11.620)
of things that is much more powerful than you book on history.
Lex Fridman (1:08:15.180)
That's accurate.
Yannis Pappas (1:08:16.180)
I think often it inspires you to go learn more.
Lex Fridman (1:08:18.740)
So it's like, I know we did that.
Yannis Pappas (1:08:19.740)
I mean, you know, I, people would go, Hey, I went and learned about this because they
Lex Fridman (1:08:23.060)
knew with us, there was no pretense, which was great that we had no standard.
Lex Fridman (1:08:27.340)
So it's like, nobody came to us for historical accuracy, but I was kind of turned on by the
Yannis Pappas (1:08:32.220)
fact that it inspired people to go learn about this stuff or to at least know like Battle
Yannis Pappas (1:08:37.660)
of Crete, like you said, a very underappreciated battle.
Yannis Pappas (1:08:42.100)
Even Winston Churchill said from here on, we will no longer say that Greeks fight like
Yannis Pappas (1:08:47.980)
heroes, but heroes fight like Greeks.
Lex Fridman (1:08:49.580)
I mean, it was a monumental battle and you know, not talked about enough.
Lex Fridman (1:08:54.660)
And I, our podcast would inspire people to go actually learn more, to go listen to Dan
Lex Fridman (1:09:00.300)
Carlin or to go pick up a book or to do research on their own.
Lex Fridman (1:09:04.020)
And so I think podcasts, Dan Carlin's obviously much more accurate than us, but it's good
Lex Fridman (1:09:10.060)
that people are going to podcasts like yours and to learn shit.
Yannis Pappas (1:09:13.460)
Joe was, is really like the progenitor of that.
Yannis Pappas (1:09:16.860)
I mean, you know, having intellectuals on and getting the public interested with this
Yannis Pappas (1:09:22.360)
new medium in, in people who are intelligent.
Lex Fridman (1:09:27.420)
It's nice.
Yannis Pappas (1:09:28.420)
Cause you know, what the mainstream press pushes out is horseshit, gorgeous horseshit.
Lex Fridman (1:09:33.820)
It's got a beautiful veneer, but no substance.
Lex Fridman (1:09:37.300)
And so this, this is a nice pushback.
Lex Fridman (1:09:39.460)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (1:09:40.460)
The authenticity of Joe's show.
Yannis Pappas (1:09:41.860)
I mean, I'm through, I started listening from the very beginning, you know, doing my in
Yannis Pappas (1:09:46.620)
grad school, you know, like a technical person and he just pulled me in.
Lex Fridman (1:09:51.900)
And made me curious to learn about all kinds of things and use my own critical reasoning
Yannis Pappas (1:09:57.980)
skills on some of the bullshit guests he's had and some of the most inspiring guests
Lex Fridman (1:10:02.740)
he's had.
Lex Fridman (1:10:03.740)
And so I teach you to think, can you, I don't know much about Bernie Madoff as a small tangent.
Lex Fridman (1:10:08.740)
Can you, can you tell me who the hell is Bernie Madoff?
Yannis Pappas (1:10:10.900)
Oh, Bernie Madoff is the GOAT.
Lex Fridman (1:10:13.380)
The greatest thief of all time, dude.
Yannis Pappas (1:10:16.900)
Hedge fund guy, ran a hedge fund and pulled, stole the most money in the history of America.
Yannis Pappas (1:10:22.180)
I mean a con artist and he does, people obviously he's become, he's a household name because
Yannis Pappas (1:10:29.180)
of the magnitude of his crime, but you got to appreciate, again, you got to appreciate
Lex Fridman (1:10:34.060)
what went into this and how long he was able to pull it off by tricking the smartest and
Yannis Pappas (1:10:39.620)
richest people in the world and a brilliant scam.
Lex Fridman (1:10:43.220)
The con man, con man is short for confidence man.
Lex Fridman (1:10:47.460)
And it came from, yeah, a con man, basically they exude confidence and they trick people
Lex Fridman (1:10:53.220)
by playing on their ego and blind spots.
Lex Fridman (1:10:56.340)
And the word comes from a guy, I can't remember where, but what he used to do, I can't remember
Lex Fridman (1:11:00.540)
the guy's name, whatever, you can Google it, con man.
Lex Fridman (1:11:03.860)
But it's very interesting.
Yannis Pappas (1:11:04.860)
The first con man that is on record, what he would do, he would go to very rich people
Lex Fridman (1:11:08.380)
and he'd be very well dressed, right?
Lex Fridman (1:11:11.100)
And he'd go, I bet you, you don't have the confidence to give me your watch.
Lex Fridman (1:11:16.740)
And he would play on the egos of these very powerful and rich people and they would give
Lex Fridman (1:11:19.700)
them the watch for some reason, some sort of reverse psychology bullshit.
Lex Fridman (1:11:23.340)
And he'd take the watch and he would just steal it because basically saying like, you
Yannis Pappas (1:11:27.540)
don't have the confidence to give me the watch because you don't, I don't know, you don't
Yannis Pappas (1:11:29.660)
think I'm going to give it back.
Lex Fridman (1:11:30.660)
And he would just take it.
Lex Fridman (1:11:31.740)
So Bernie Madoff was a very sophisticated con man.
Lex Fridman (1:11:35.460)
And again, we were talking about people pretending to be the opposite of what they are.
Lex Fridman (1:11:39.100)
And he hid his thievery in how available he was to his clients, how he would show up at
Yannis Pappas (1:11:46.440)
every bar mitzvah, every birthday, he was always available for their phone calls.
Lex Fridman (1:11:50.020)
And he played on their egos.
Lex Fridman (1:11:52.340)
He made it so people wanted to invest in him, like they were competing.
Yannis Pappas (1:11:56.620)
He made it very exclusive.
Lex Fridman (1:11:58.380)
He wouldn't just take anyone.
Lex Fridman (1:12:00.020)
And there was a method behind that madness because he wanted the whales that wouldn't
Lex Fridman (1:12:04.140)
notice that he had this pyramid scheme going.
Lex Fridman (1:12:07.860)
And so what he would do is he would just rob from the richer and he just kept, it was like
Yannis Pappas (1:12:11.780)
he'd pay back the richer with the guy who was a little, and it was a pyramid scheme.
Lex Fridman (1:12:15.820)
And he was able to do it for so long and steal so much money.
Lex Fridman (1:12:20.380)
And he would win people over with the scheme because with that scheme, he was the only
Yannis Pappas (1:12:24.320)
guy who could provide, who could guarantee like a 1% return even during times of recession.
Lex Fridman (1:12:30.340)
And because he was such a good con man, he hijacked people's reasoning with his charm.
Lex Fridman (1:12:35.580)
And that's what con artists do.
Lex Fridman (1:12:36.860)
That's what psychopaths do.
Yannis Pappas (1:12:37.860)
They're so fucking charming.
Lex Fridman (1:12:38.860)
They get you in that Volkswagen Beetle.
Yannis Pappas (1:12:41.260)
Because if they use their reasoning for one second, they'd go, hey, nobody can provide
Lex Fridman (1:12:45.060)
1% returns during recessions.
Lex Fridman (1:12:46.860)
How the fuck is this guy doing it?
Lex Fridman (1:12:48.180)
I'll tell you how he's doing it.
Yannis Pappas (1:12:49.500)
He's stealing from another guy to pay you.
Lex Fridman (1:12:51.740)
You fucking idiot.
Lex Fridman (1:12:52.900)
So charisma is essential to that.
Lex Fridman (1:12:54.860)
Maybe you can help explain something to me, something I have been affected by.
Yannis Pappas (1:13:00.060)
I'm getting way too loud for your listeners, there's going to be comments like, tell this
Lex Fridman (1:13:02.660)
guy to calm down.
Yannis Pappas (1:13:03.660)
I'm sorry, I'm Greek, I'm positive.
Lex Fridman (1:13:07.260)
No, that's beautiful.
Yannis Pappas (1:13:09.620)
I love it.
Yannis Pappas (1:13:10.980)
Something that I have been thinking about and have encountered indirectly is Jeffrey
Yannis Pappas (1:13:15.060)
Epstein.
Lex Fridman (1:13:16.820)
And I have a sense because of MIT, because of all the other people that have been touched,
Yannis Pappas (1:13:24.420)
the wrong term, by Jeffrey Epstein in the sense that literally and figuratively.
Lex Fridman (1:13:30.620)
And it always felt to me like there's not a deep conspiracy, I don't know, but it felt
Yannis Pappas (1:13:37.820)
to me like it's not some deeply rooted conspiracy where like Eric Weinstein thinks that there's
Yannis Pappas (1:13:44.340)
some probability that Jeffrey Epstein is a front for like an intelligence agency, whether
Yannis Pappas (1:13:50.860)
it's Israeli or the CIA, I don't know, but is a front for something much, much bigger.
Lex Fridman (1:13:57.660)
And then I always thought that he's just, maybe you can correct me, but more of the
Yannis Pappas (1:14:02.540)
Bernie Madoff variety, where he's just a charismatic guy who maybe is psychopathic in some sense,
Lex Fridman (1:14:10.220)
so you know, also a pedophile, but just charismatic and is able to convince people of that 1%
Yannis Pappas (1:14:16.860)
of any idea that in the case of scientists is able to convince these people that their
Lex Fridman (1:14:23.540)
ideas matter.
Lex Fridman (1:14:25.380)
So one thing scientists don't really, you know, despite what people say, I don't think
Lex Fridman (1:14:29.860)
they care about money as much as people think.
Yannis Pappas (1:14:32.020)
I mean, people are ridiculous when they think that, yeah, that's why people get into science
Lex Fridman (1:14:35.140)
for the money.
Yannis Pappas (1:14:36.140)
Yeah, right.
Yannis Pappas (1:14:37.140)
The personalities that get into science are obsessed with minutia and they do the scientific
Yannis Pappas (1:14:41.220)
method.
Lex Fridman (1:14:42.220)
You know how boring that is?
Yannis Pappas (1:14:43.220)
Like you have to have a love for it in order to do it.
Lex Fridman (1:14:46.620)
But the thing, what drives you is for your ideas to be then heard.
Yannis Pappas (1:14:52.420)
Like when a rich guy comes over, probably super charismatic, is going to tell you that
Yannis Pappas (1:14:57.060)
your ideas, especially for some of these outsiders at MIT, at Harvard, at Caltech, all these
Yannis Pappas (1:15:03.020)
like sort of big science, like physics, biology, artificial intelligence, computing fields,
Yannis Pappas (1:15:13.540)
to hear somebody say that your ideas are brilliant and ideas matter, it's pretty powerful, especially
Yannis Pappas (1:15:19.420)
when you've been an outsider.
Lex Fridman (1:15:21.420)
Like he's talked to a bunch of people who had outsider ideas.
Yannis Pappas (1:15:26.920)
You know, the big negative for me of modern academia is that most people, actually like
Yannis Pappas (1:15:34.220)
most communities, most people think the same and there's just these brilliant outsiders
Lex Fridman (1:15:38.660)
and the outsiders are just derided.
Lex Fridman (1:15:41.620)
And so when you have Jeffrey Epstein, like a hyena, sorry, sorry, sorry, going on the
Yannis Pappas (1:15:47.700)
outside and picking off these brilliant minds that are the outsiders, he can use charisma
Yannis Pappas (1:15:52.180)
to convince them to collaborate with him, to take his funding and then thereby he builds
Yannis Pappas (1:15:59.540)
a reputation, like slowly accumulates these people that actually results in a network
Yannis Pappas (1:16:07.500)
of like some of those brilliant people in the world, you know, and then pulls in people
Yannis Pappas (1:16:12.180)
like Bill Gates and I don't know, political figures.
Lex Fridman (1:16:16.700)
I tend to believe that one person can do that.
Yannis Pappas (1:16:19.300)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:16:20.300)
I mean, look at Hitler, charisma is blinding.
Yannis Pappas (1:16:22.860)
I think that's what Kahneman, speaking of Bernie Madoff, that's one of their major tools
Lex Fridman (1:16:27.820)
is flattery, glib, superficial charm.
Yannis Pappas (1:16:31.700)
It creates those blind spots.
Lex Fridman (1:16:33.380)
People want to hear how great they are.
Yannis Pappas (1:16:34.580)
They want to be flattered.
Yannis Pappas (1:16:36.460)
It takes your defenses down, plays to our ego, how much we're all just pieces of garbage
Lex Fridman (1:16:42.580)
and want to hear how great we are.
Lex Fridman (1:16:44.140)
We want that love from our mother and our father.
Yannis Pappas (1:16:46.580)
That's Freudian and they know because they're not burdened with that need, they're not burdened
Lex Fridman (1:16:52.460)
with that empathy or emotions and they just see things very calculatively.
Yannis Pappas (1:16:59.220)
They play, they know that we're prey in their game and they use that against us and that
Yannis Pappas (1:17:04.300)
is why someone who is not that intelligent, like Hitler, can probably convince a lot more
Yannis Pappas (1:17:09.760)
intelligent people, you know, and that's why we can't give Tim Dillon power because then,
Lex Fridman (1:17:14.100)
you know, he already stands on a stage.
Yannis Pappas (1:17:15.860)
I mean, if we let that guy, I mean, he will just take over a country and everyone who
Lex Fridman (1:17:19.460)
can't cook well will be eliminated.
Lex Fridman (1:17:21.740)
So it's like...
Lex Fridman (1:17:22.740)
I wonder why he keeps complimenting me when we're in private.
Yannis Pappas (1:17:25.020)
Exactly.
Lex Fridman (1:17:26.020)
Be careful.
Yannis Pappas (1:17:27.020)
He looks at me just, I like your suit.
Lex Fridman (1:17:29.060)
I like the cut of your jib.
Yannis Pappas (1:17:30.540)
Yeah, definitely.
Lex Fridman (1:17:31.540)
You gotta be careful of that kid.
Yannis Pappas (1:17:32.540)
He's Hitler.
Lex Fridman (1:17:33.540)
But it's crazy to think about...
Yannis Pappas (1:17:35.700)
Clip that, please.
Lex Fridman (1:17:36.700)
Internet.
Yannis Pappas (1:17:37.700)
I mean, Quentin Tarantino said it to Pat, I mean, in his script, personality goes a long
Lex Fridman (1:17:40.980)
way, dude.
Yannis Pappas (1:17:41.980)
I mean, personality can usurp common sense and reason of the smartest people.
Lex Fridman (1:17:48.420)
These absolute smartest people can be hypnotized.
Yannis Pappas (1:17:52.840)
It's sort of like a sexy woman.
Yannis Pappas (1:17:54.900)
It's like, you can just, you can be tricked because we have such a blind spot for, you
Yannis Pappas (1:18:00.180)
know, for flattery.
Lex Fridman (1:18:02.220)
Yeah, I wonder.
Yannis Pappas (1:18:03.860)
I think there's a BBC documentary on, I think it's called something like Charisma, Hitler's
Lex Fridman (1:18:08.900)
Charisma or something like that.
Yannis Pappas (1:18:10.700)
It was quite, I mean, that one focused more about the power of the speeches.
Lex Fridman (1:18:15.420)
But I wonder if most of the success or the rise of Hitler and the Third Reich had to
Yannis Pappas (1:18:21.740)
do with the charisma of Hitler when he's alone in a room with somebody, with the generals,
Lex Fridman (1:18:27.820)
just one on one.
Yannis Pappas (1:18:28.820)
Like, I wonder if that's the essential element of just being able to just look into a person's
Yannis Pappas (1:18:34.980)
eyes, like flatter them or whatever is needed to earn their trust and then convince them
Yannis Pappas (1:18:41.980)
of anything you want.
Lex Fridman (1:18:43.540)
Right.
Yannis Pappas (1:18:44.540)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:18:45.540)
I mean, you're right.
Yannis Pappas (1:18:46.540)
Because that's the one piece of history we don't have.
Lex Fridman (1:18:49.820)
We don't know.
Yannis Pappas (1:18:50.820)
We do know that the kid crushed.
Lex Fridman (1:18:53.180)
I mean, he was a headliner.
Yannis Pappas (1:18:55.060)
He got up there and his hair would flop.
Lex Fridman (1:18:58.340)
I mean, he crushed it.
Yannis Pappas (1:19:00.780)
Yeah, there's certain elements about nationalism and pride that are really powerful.
Lex Fridman (1:19:04.260)
Like a lot of us humans, I think, long for that, for the feeling of belonging.
Lex Fridman (1:19:10.980)
And when some charismatic leader makes us feel like we belong to a group, the amount
Lex Fridman (1:19:18.380)
of evil we can do to other humans because of that, it's endless.
Yannis Pappas (1:19:23.500)
Nobody wants to look and nobody wants to do the work to be better or look at where they
Lex Fridman (1:19:26.760)
messed up.
Lex Fridman (1:19:27.760)
Why does it always have to be the Jews that escape?
Lex Fridman (1:19:29.180)
You know, it's like, get over it, guys.
Yannis Pappas (1:19:32.580)
I mean, it's like they killed Jesus.
Lex Fridman (1:19:34.620)
You get over it.
Yannis Pappas (1:19:35.620)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:19:36.620)
Okay.
Yannis Pappas (1:19:37.620)
It's a long time ago.
Lex Fridman (1:19:38.620)
I mean, move on.
Yannis Pappas (1:19:39.620)
I'm Jewish.
Lex Fridman (1:19:40.620)
I understand because we do run the central banks.
Lex Fridman (1:19:41.620)
And the weather.
Lex Fridman (1:19:42.740)
And the weather.
Yannis Pappas (1:19:43.740)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:19:44.740)
Don't forget about the weather.
Yannis Pappas (1:19:45.740)
That's a big one.
Lex Fridman (1:19:46.740)
That's a funny one that people created.
Lex Fridman (1:19:47.740)
Like, who gives a shit?
Lex Fridman (1:19:48.740)
What is the weather?
Lex Fridman (1:19:49.740)
Like, what's the importance of the weather?
Lex Fridman (1:19:50.740)
All right.
Yannis Pappas (1:19:51.740)
The Jews made it rain outside.
Lex Fridman (1:19:52.740)
Good.
Yannis Pappas (1:19:53.740)
You got to fuck.
Lex Fridman (1:19:54.740)
You know, they made it snow.
Yannis Pappas (1:19:55.740)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:19:56.740)
You get a day off.
Yannis Pappas (1:19:57.740)
Thank the Jews.
Lex Fridman (1:19:58.740)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (1:19:59.740)
It's like, yeah, there's certain conspiracies that make me like flat earth.
Lex Fridman (1:20:00.740)
Like, what's the motive?
Lex Fridman (1:20:01.740)
What's the motivation for lying that the earth is round?
Lex Fridman (1:20:04.260)
Like, what's the conspiracy?
Yannis Pappas (1:20:05.260)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:20:06.260)
What does anyone get out of that?
Yannis Pappas (1:20:07.260)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:20:08.260)
What is exactly the profit?
Lex Fridman (1:20:09.260)
What's the strategy?
Lex Fridman (1:20:10.260)
Do you have any, from a historical perspective or just a human perspective, conspiracy theories
Lex Fridman (1:20:17.300)
you connect with?
Lex Fridman (1:20:18.300)
Or you're not necessarily conspiratorial?
Yannis Pappas (1:20:22.420)
I'm not necessarily conspiratorial.
Lex Fridman (1:20:26.060)
Nobody cares that much.
Lex Fridman (1:20:30.580)
But then, you know, what happens is you find out this one or this two, and you start questioning
Lex Fridman (1:20:36.420)
everything.
Lex Fridman (1:20:37.420)
And you start questioning everything, man.
Lex Fridman (1:20:38.420)
It's like, you know, the Vietnam War started, that was a lie.
Yannis Pappas (1:20:42.540)
That was a false flag.
Lex Fridman (1:20:43.540)
And then next thing you know, everything's a false flag.
Yannis Pappas (1:20:45.960)
There are some strange things on 9 11.
Lex Fridman (1:20:49.860)
You know, there's some strange things from a scientific perspective.
Yannis Pappas (1:20:52.100)
I'm no scientist, but it's like, you know, yeah, three steel framed skyscrapers falling
Lex Fridman (1:20:58.120)
on the same day in the same way.
Yannis Pappas (1:21:00.580)
A lot of people say, oh, they were hit by planes.
Lex Fridman (1:21:03.580)
It's like, yeah, but that's not why they fell.
Yannis Pappas (1:21:04.780)
They fell because of fires and usually, not usually, all the time, except for three times.
Lex Fridman (1:21:13.180)
And there was buildings that have burned for longer than that.
Lex Fridman (1:21:17.140)
And there might be good explanations, but the lack of transparency, it's like, I feel
Lex Fridman (1:21:21.180)
like government.
Lex Fridman (1:21:22.260)
And building seven's weird.
Yannis Pappas (1:21:23.260)
I mean, the way it kind of died, just a neat, just a neat, the physical, I mean, you're
Yannis Pappas (1:21:27.660)
a scientist.
Yannis Pappas (1:21:28.660)
Is that, well, I don't, I, is there resistance from the steel and free fall, not all scientists
Yannis Pappas (1:21:34.380)
know everything.
Lex Fridman (1:21:35.380)
I'm just a computer guy.
Yannis Pappas (1:21:36.380)
Cause I had some questions I wanted to ask you about my biology, but yeah, so exactly.
Lex Fridman (1:21:40.980)
I don't understand biology.
Yannis Pappas (1:21:41.980)
I don't understand the melting point of steel.
Yannis Pappas (1:21:43.980)
I don't, but I'm just the common sense human that looks at government and institutions
Yannis Pappas (1:21:49.560)
when they try to communicate.
Lex Fridman (1:21:51.520)
And there's a certain human element where you can sense that there's dishonesty going
Yannis Pappas (1:21:56.240)
on.
Lex Fridman (1:21:57.240)
And dishonesty might not be deeply rooted in a conspiracy theory and something malevolent.
Yannis Pappas (1:22:01.100)
It might just be rooted more likely to me in a basic fear of losing your job.
Lex Fridman (1:22:06.980)
So when you have a bunch of people that are afraid of losing their job, you know, and
Yannis Pappas (1:22:10.500)
they just don't want to like the origins of the virus, whether it came from a lab or not,
Yannis Pappas (1:22:16.660)
you know, that's a pretty, I know a lot of biologists behind a closed doors that, that
Yannis Pappas (1:22:22.020)
say it's very likely it was leaked from the lab.
Lex Fridman (1:22:25.620)
But like, they don't want to talk about it because there's not good evidence either way.
Yannis Pappas (1:22:29.340)
It's mostly you're just using common sense.
Lex Fridman (1:22:32.060)
So they're waiting for good evidence to come out in either direction.
Lex Fridman (1:22:35.620)
But just like nobody in positions of institutional, like centralized power wants to just honestly
Yannis Pappas (1:22:40.980)
say, we don't know, or on the point of masks or all those kinds of things to say, you know,
Yannis Pappas (1:22:46.540)
here's the best evidence we have.
Lex Fridman (1:22:47.760)
We're not sure we're trying to figure that out.
Yannis Pappas (1:22:49.220)
We're desperately trying to figure that out or just like honesty, especially in the modern
Lex Fridman (1:22:53.780)
day, that's the hope I have for the 21st centuries.
Yannis Pappas (1:22:56.820)
People seem to detect bullshit much, much better because of the internet.
Lex Fridman (1:23:00.140)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (1:23:01.140)
Internet.
Lex Fridman (1:23:02.140)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (1:23:03.140)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:23:04.140)
And we seem to...
Lex Fridman (1:23:05.140)
But they also believe crazy shit too.
Lex Fridman (1:23:06.140)
There's no Yang without a Yang, I guess.
Lex Fridman (1:23:07.140)
But I think the conspiracy theories arise only when the people in positions of power
Lex Fridman (1:23:12.380)
and government institutions are full of shit.
Yannis Pappas (1:23:15.340)
Like the air will be taken out of the conspiracy theories if the people in elected power would
Lex Fridman (1:23:19.640)
be much more honest.
Yannis Pappas (1:23:20.640)
Like just like real.
Lex Fridman (1:23:21.640)
Yeah, people like Andrew Yang, whatever you think about him, just more honest.
Yannis Pappas (1:23:26.340)
He just like says whatever the hell comes to mind.
Lex Fridman (1:23:29.500)
By the way, he's running for New York mayor.
Yannis Pappas (1:23:31.780)
Mayor, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:23:32.780)
Do you have opinions?
Yannis Pappas (1:23:34.380)
Yeah, it's no good.
Lex Fridman (1:23:35.780)
I like Andrew Yang and it's no good.
Yannis Pappas (1:23:37.660)
I'd be honest with you.
Lex Fridman (1:23:39.020)
I'm a lifelong New Yorker.
Yannis Pappas (1:23:40.420)
I mean, I'm a New Yorker.
Lex Fridman (1:23:41.580)
Well, you're a New Yorker, so nothing's good.
Yannis Pappas (1:23:44.340)
Well, something is good.
Lex Fridman (1:23:45.740)
Okay.
Yannis Pappas (1:23:46.740)
Let's be honest about New York.
Lex Fridman (1:23:49.140)
It's a very socially liberal place.
Yannis Pappas (1:23:51.140)
It is the head of the snake.
Lex Fridman (1:23:52.900)
New York is the country.
Yannis Pappas (1:23:54.420)
If New York, when New York's not doing good, country's not doing good.
Lex Fridman (1:23:58.460)
It's the most important city, DC, New York.
Yannis Pappas (1:24:01.540)
It's really Rome.
Lex Fridman (1:24:02.540)
Be honest.
Yannis Pappas (1:24:03.540)
It's, maybe I'm biased.
Lex Fridman (1:24:04.540)
I don't know.
Yannis Pappas (1:24:05.540)
No.
Lex Fridman (1:24:06.540)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (1:24:07.540)
We just, New Yorkers, we walk around everywhere and we go, this is just like New York, but
Lex Fridman (1:24:10.940)
not New York.
Yannis Pappas (1:24:11.940)
It's, but New York needs, and I'm a guy who leans left.
Lex Fridman (1:24:17.660)
You know, I just, I lean left and that's just what it is.
Lex Fridman (1:24:20.220)
A dictator?
Lex Fridman (1:24:21.220)
Is that where you're going?
Yannis Pappas (1:24:22.220)
No, we need.
Lex Fridman (1:24:23.220)
Are we going back to Stalin again?
Yannis Pappas (1:24:24.220)
We need, it's a money town.
Lex Fridman (1:24:25.220)
Let's be, come on, man.
Yannis Pappas (1:24:26.500)
I mean, New York is a money town.
Lex Fridman (1:24:29.740)
And Wall Street, and then when AOC and her cronies at the local level rejected that Amazon
Lex Fridman (1:24:36.620)
thing, you're going like, what do you think makes cities?
Lex Fridman (1:24:40.260)
What's going to create jobs in the 21st century?
Lex Fridman (1:24:42.340)
What do we need?
Lex Fridman (1:24:43.340)
More nail salons?
Yannis Pappas (1:24:44.340)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:24:45.340)
More pizza places?
Yannis Pappas (1:24:46.340)
I mean, we're living in the tech revolution and you know, whatever your opinions are
Lex Fridman (1:24:49.740)
about Jeff Bezos, that's the world, tech.
Lex Fridman (1:24:53.580)
And they want you to come here.
Lex Fridman (1:24:54.740)
Of course you give them tax breaks.
Yannis Pappas (1:24:56.140)
That's why companies go anywhere.
Yannis Pappas (1:24:58.340)
She's so fucking utopian and that progressive wing is so utopian and that always ends in
Yannis Pappas (1:25:04.220)
disaster because it's not rooted in reality.
Lex Fridman (1:25:06.720)
It doesn't accept the reality that people are self interested.
Yannis Pappas (1:25:09.560)
Now they're going to do this 14%, 15% tax hike on people making a million dollars more.
Lex Fridman (1:25:13.920)
In New York City, a million dollars is not that much.
Lex Fridman (1:25:16.340)
So people are going to flee New York.
Lex Fridman (1:25:18.120)
The tax base is going to flee.
Yannis Pappas (1:25:19.900)
New York's going to fall to shit like it did before.
Lex Fridman (1:25:21.900)
So you're saying it basically needs a more capitalist front, like capitalistic type of
Yannis Pappas (1:25:25.620)
thinker.
Lex Fridman (1:25:26.620)
Yes.
Yannis Pappas (1:25:27.620)
Bloomberg, Giuliani when he was still sane and his hair wasn't melting off his face.
Lex Fridman (1:25:31.260)
Prosecutor.
Yannis Pappas (1:25:32.260)
You need a tough, I mean, I don't know what's happened to that guy.
Lex Fridman (1:25:34.580)
He's lost it.
Lex Fridman (1:25:35.580)
But it's fun.
Lex Fridman (1:25:36.580)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (1:25:37.580)
It's fun to watch.
Lex Fridman (1:25:38.580)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (1:25:39.580)
It's fun to watch him be just like, uh, Trump's lackey.
Lex Fridman (1:25:40.580)
Like, yeah, boy, whatever you want, boss.
Yannis Pappas (1:25:41.580)
I'll just say whatever you want, boss.
Lex Fridman (1:25:43.620)
But New York is a money town that needs a money guy and sort of more of a Republican.
Yannis Pappas (1:25:49.300)
I have to say on the local level, as more of a guy who leans left, I'll just be honest.
Yannis Pappas (1:25:53.680)
It's a tough city that needs a tough mayor, not some guy who's going like, I understand
Yannis Pappas (1:25:58.140)
we all need free money.
Yannis Pappas (1:25:59.460)
You know, Andrew Yang I think is right in the big picture because all the real jobs
Yannis Pappas (1:26:03.780)
are somewhere else.
Yannis Pappas (1:26:04.780)
You look at those Asian cities, you go like, oh, that's what our cities used to look like
Yannis Pappas (1:26:07.860)
at the industrial revolution.
Lex Fridman (1:26:09.540)
You know, there was like, there was jobs and people were making things here.
Yannis Pappas (1:26:12.340)
Now you look at those cities in Asia and you're going like, wow.
Lex Fridman (1:26:15.140)
And then you go to Detroit and you're like, yeah, we're done.
Yannis Pappas (1:26:17.620)
You go to Cleveland, you go, we were done.
Lex Fridman (1:26:19.920)
So I don't actually, it's, it's funny.
Yannis Pappas (1:26:22.420)
The reason I really like Andrew Yang is I've learned a lot every time he talks, like it's
Lex Fridman (1:26:27.400)
not his opinions.
Yannis Pappas (1:26:28.880)
He's just giving a lot of data, like information, which I just start a podcast.
Lex Fridman (1:26:33.180)
Don't run for mayor.
Yannis Pappas (1:26:34.180)
Yeah, that's true.
Lex Fridman (1:26:35.180)
He already has a podcast.
Yannis Pappas (1:26:36.180)
I think Yang speaks.
Lex Fridman (1:26:37.180)
Who doesn't?
Lex Fridman (1:26:38.180)
Who does it?
Lex Fridman (1:26:39.180)
Who does it now?
Yannis Pappas (1:26:40.180)
That's the way we communicate.
Lex Fridman (1:26:41.180)
I don't even talk to people unless it's on a podcast.
Lex Fridman (1:26:43.700)
What?
Yannis Pappas (1:26:44.700)
Listen, man, I'm a, I'm not going to criticize that because there is something like I talked
Yannis Pappas (1:26:48.420)
to my dad on a podcast for four hours and I'm not sure I would ever talk to him in the
Lex Fridman (1:26:55.580)
way we talked without the podcast.
Lex Fridman (1:26:57.500)
What does he do?
Lex Fridman (1:26:58.500)
Uh, physicist.
Yannis Pappas (1:26:59.500)
Oh shit.
Lex Fridman (1:27:00.500)
But like, yeah, it's a episode 100.
Lex Fridman (1:27:05.020)
And you know, I, uh, the, the way I recorded that podcast is I tried to put my ego aside.
Yannis Pappas (1:27:14.740)
It's actually really tough to talk to your dad, especially because you're giving him
Yannis Pappas (1:27:18.100)
a platform.
Yannis Pappas (1:27:19.100)
Uh, especially, so at that time there's already a bit of a platform for this podcast.
Lex Fridman (1:27:24.660)
And so there's this, as a son, you think like, oh, here it goes with this bullshit again.
Lex Fridman (1:27:30.660)
Like that's the natural son thought you have.
Lex Fridman (1:27:34.620)
But at the same time, I wanted to, the way I thought about it is in 20 years when I look
Lex Fridman (1:27:39.180)
back, like I want to do a conversation where I'm happy with it, you know?
Lex Fridman (1:27:43.660)
So I want to make him shine.
Lex Fridman (1:27:46.020)
But I also called him out on like, why were you so distant, like, like all of that kind
Yannis Pappas (1:27:51.220)
of stuff.
Lex Fridman (1:27:52.220)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (1:27:53.220)
It was very difficult to do, but it was really important to do.
Lex Fridman (1:27:54.740)
And I don't think I'd be able to do it without a, without a microphone.
Yannis Pappas (1:27:58.100)
Right.
Yannis Pappas (1:27:59.100)
Listen, how often do we sit there and just focus our attention and just look at the other
Lex Fridman (1:28:02.620)
person?
Lex Fridman (1:28:03.620)
I, I don't know, man.
Yannis Pappas (1:28:05.780)
This is not even recording right now.
Lex Fridman (1:28:07.340)
I just invited you over.
Yannis Pappas (1:28:10.540)
Just so we could actually, you're right.
Yannis Pappas (1:28:11.900)
The podcast does make, like I listen, I've been listening to every word you've been saying.
Lex Fridman (1:28:15.700)
And if we weren't doing a podcast, I might be looking at my phone or being self conscious
Yannis Pappas (1:28:19.740)
about something else or nervous or anxious, especially with people close to you.
Yannis Pappas (1:28:23.660)
I mean, that was, I recommend that actually for people to talk to their family on a podcast
Lex Fridman (1:28:29.620)
or like a fake or not.
Yannis Pappas (1:28:31.300)
That's really powerful.
Yannis Pappas (1:28:32.300)
It made me realize that there's a clear distinction between the conversations we usually have
Yannis Pappas (1:28:37.260)
with humans and those we have when a podcast is being recorded.
Lex Fridman (1:28:43.340)
What the fuck were we talking on before that?
Yannis Pappas (1:28:46.060)
I knew you were going to lose your train of thought on that one because that's a big one.
Lex Fridman (1:28:49.220)
There's a motion behind that one.
Yannis Pappas (1:28:50.660)
A podcast with dad is going to take, that's going to take you to a place that took you
Lex Fridman (1:28:53.900)
to a place.
Yannis Pappas (1:28:54.900)
It took you outside of interviewer.
Lex Fridman (1:28:57.260)
New York.
Yannis Pappas (1:28:58.260)
It went to a place.
Lex Fridman (1:28:59.260)
New York and Yang.
Yannis Pappas (1:29:00.260)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:29:01.260)
In New York and Yang.
Yannis Pappas (1:29:02.260)
That's what really surprised me about, I like the psychoanalysis that you just threw in
Lex Fridman (1:29:07.140)
there.
Yannis Pappas (1:29:08.140)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:29:09.140)
I knew that.
Yannis Pappas (1:29:10.140)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:29:11.140)
That took you to a place.
Lex Fridman (1:29:12.140)
So Andrew Yang mentioned.
Lex Fridman (1:29:13.140)
Do you respect me now, dad?
Lex Fridman (1:29:14.140)
MIT, is it enough?
Lex Fridman (1:29:15.140)
Fucking million people listening to this.
Yannis Pappas (1:29:16.140)
I got 14 Rogans.
Lex Fridman (1:29:17.140)
Is it enough, dad?
Yannis Pappas (1:29:18.140)
I'm creating robots.
Lex Fridman (1:29:19.140)
Is it enough for you?
Yannis Pappas (1:29:20.140)
It's never enough.
Lex Fridman (1:29:21.140)
That's what drives you probably.
Yannis Pappas (1:29:26.140)
That's probably what drives me.
Lex Fridman (1:29:27.300)
That's what gives meaning to life is it's never enough.
Lex Fridman (1:29:30.500)
And I hope to pass that on to my kids one day.
Lex Fridman (1:29:33.380)
That nothing's ever enough.
Lex Fridman (1:29:34.380)
Whether they're robot or human, right?
Lex Fridman (1:29:36.380)
Your kids.
Yannis Pappas (1:29:37.380)
Most likely.
Lex Fridman (1:29:38.380)
Let's be honest.
Yannis Pappas (1:29:39.380)
Robot.
Lex Fridman (1:29:40.380)
You might call one of your robot.
Lex Fridman (1:29:41.380)
Do you love your robot?
Lex Fridman (1:29:42.380)
Are you starting to love your...
Lex Fridman (1:29:43.380)
Is it going to be like that Pygmalion thing?
Lex Fridman (1:29:44.380)
You create them and then they kill you.
Lex Fridman (1:29:45.380)
But even while they're killing you, you got a tear.
Lex Fridman (1:29:46.380)
The tear.
Yannis Pappas (1:29:47.380)
A slow one.
Lex Fridman (1:29:48.380)
One tear.
Yannis Pappas (1:29:49.380)
One tear.
Lex Fridman (1:29:50.380)
And just.
Yannis Pappas (1:29:51.380)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:29:52.380)
Why are you doing this Frankenstein?
Lex Fridman (1:29:53.380)
Why?
Lex Fridman (1:29:54.380)
Why?
Lex Fridman (1:29:55.380)
But I loved you.
Lex Fridman (1:29:56.380)
Those would be the last words out of my mouth.
Yannis Pappas (1:29:57.380)
I just want to mention something on the, that it costs $400,000.
Lex Fridman (1:30:03.940)
Over $400,000 per year to support one person in prison in New York.
Yannis Pappas (1:30:11.380)
Like when I heard that number, it was really confusing to me.
Lex Fridman (1:30:15.380)
Like that it costs that much, 400K per person.
Lex Fridman (1:30:21.300)
And it was really refreshing to hear a politician describe a particular problem with data.
Lex Fridman (1:30:27.260)
That this is this prison industrial complex, whatever the hell it is.
Lex Fridman (1:30:31.060)
And whether the solution, it's unclear what the solution is.
Yannis Pappas (1:30:33.940)
I think he has solutions, but just the honesty of presenting that information was refreshing.
Lex Fridman (1:30:39.500)
And I'm not sure a capitalistic person would solve that.
Lex Fridman (1:30:43.060)
Those kinds of problems he might make worse.
Lex Fridman (1:30:44.980)
And I'm not, I'm a huge fan of capitalism.
Yannis Pappas (1:30:48.780)
I think the free market is the way we make progress in this world, but it seems to go
Yannis Pappas (1:30:56.180)
wrong in certain directions.
Yannis Pappas (1:30:58.460)
Like the military industrial complex, the prison industrial complex, anything that ends
Yannis Pappas (1:31:01.780)
with industrial complex.
Lex Fridman (1:31:04.280)
And so I'm not sure.
Yannis Pappas (1:31:06.260)
I'm not sure if all of the problems, you're basically saying, let's put New York's problems
Lex Fridman (1:31:14.420)
aside.
Yannis Pappas (1:31:16.700)
We need to have New York shine first to do what it does best.
Lex Fridman (1:31:20.660)
Essentially.
Yannis Pappas (1:31:21.660)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:31:22.660)
And then we will fix them, well, and then we can focus on the problems.
Lex Fridman (1:31:26.300)
But if you just say like, here's a problem, here's a problem, here's a problem, let's
Yannis Pappas (1:31:29.380)
make sure we have the safety net that protects us against all of these kinds of problems.
Yannis Pappas (1:31:32.760)
That's not going to, that's going to kill the city, the spirit of the city that is in
Lex Fridman (1:31:38.260)
your biased opinion, the Rome of the world.
Yannis Pappas (1:31:42.820)
That said, a lot of people are fleeing New York.
Lex Fridman (1:31:44.580)
Yeah, that's why I say it.
Yannis Pappas (1:31:46.700)
That's the reality of the situation is, you know, I'm all for the public good, but yeah,
Yannis Pappas (1:31:51.800)
there needs to be a back to that Greek expression, pan metroniris, and I also think the free
Yannis Pappas (1:31:56.700)
market is responsible for progress.
Yannis Pappas (1:31:58.820)
I think it's the most natural thing, the thing that's most aligned with human nature, which
Yannis Pappas (1:32:02.100)
is self interest.
Lex Fridman (1:32:03.860)
And which I'm not to the extent that Ayn Rand would, but I do believe people are mostly
Yannis Pappas (1:32:07.860)
self interested, especially with one gun to the head, morals are out the window, you know,
Lex Fridman (1:32:13.140)
it's about survival.
Yannis Pappas (1:32:14.140)
So, you know, create a system that respects that and acknowledges that, but socialism
Yannis Pappas (1:32:18.940)
works very well, at least right now, as a check as to temper the excesses of capitalism
Lex Fridman (1:32:25.580)
and in certain scenarios is the more appropriate system, you know, in a vacuum.
Lex Fridman (1:32:31.760)
So one being prisons or, you know, you know, governance, you know, parks.
Yannis Pappas (1:32:38.700)
Maybe even, well, and this is a difficult one, but in healthcare, healthcare, it's unclear
Lex Fridman (1:32:44.000)
what to write.
Yannis Pappas (1:32:45.000)
There's a lot of debates there.
Lex Fridman (1:32:46.000)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (1:32:47.000)
Doctors want boats.
Lex Fridman (1:32:48.000)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:32:49.000)
So I guess you're voting for AOC you're saying.
Lex Fridman (1:32:50.980)
No, I'm not voting for AOC, but I do, it's just a tough one.
Yannis Pappas (1:32:54.980)
That's a tough one.
Lex Fridman (1:32:55.980)
But ultimately, the Hippocratic Oath, it's like, how do you turn people away, man?
Lex Fridman (1:33:01.740)
How do you do that to people?
Yannis Pappas (1:33:02.840)
It's like, it's a tough thing to reconcile helping people, curing people with the marketplace.
Yannis Pappas (1:33:13.580)
It's just, I can understand why that one's so tough.
Lex Fridman (1:33:16.620)
And then you got hypochondriacs, of course, who drain the system, you know, like people
Yannis Pappas (1:33:19.980)
who are having anxiety, like me who had COVID and called 14, you know, I called 14 ambulances.
Lex Fridman (1:33:26.660)
So and then of course we're fat and the free market made us fat because it played the marketing
Yannis Pappas (1:33:31.380)
made us want all this junk food and that's a burden on the healthcare system.
Lex Fridman (1:33:34.500)
So we got to do something about that.
Yannis Pappas (1:33:35.500)
We got to get creative.
Lex Fridman (1:33:36.500)
We need new thinkers.
Yannis Pappas (1:33:37.500)
I'll be one of them.
Lex Fridman (1:33:38.500)
When you go to a fast food restaurant, you stand on a scale.
Yannis Pappas (1:33:41.020)
If you're over a certain thing, you can't be served.
Lex Fridman (1:33:44.060)
It's good for the healthcare system.
Yannis Pappas (1:33:45.620)
You know, you just handed a salad and say, sorry, this burger is illegal for right now.
Yannis Pappas (1:33:49.620)
If you achieve these certain BMI goals, then you can, you can have this burger, but right
Yannis Pappas (1:33:56.100)
now you can't.
Lex Fridman (1:33:57.100)
And that's where the state's important.
Yannis Pappas (1:33:58.100)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:33:59.100)
Okay.
Yannis Pappas (1:34:00.100)
To regulate our freedoms.
Lex Fridman (1:34:01.100)
No slurpees.
Yannis Pappas (1:34:02.100)
I'm with you Bloomberg.
Lex Fridman (1:34:03.100)
Well, I'm with you to go along.
Yannis Pappas (1:34:04.820)
I think the salads are too expensive.
Lex Fridman (1:34:06.300)
They should be subsidized.
Yannis Pappas (1:34:07.380)
If you, if you go to like a fast food joint, the burger is always going to be cheaper than
Lex Fridman (1:34:11.940)
the salad.
Lex Fridman (1:34:12.940)
And this does not make sense.
Lex Fridman (1:34:13.940)
We should run on this platform.
Yannis Pappas (1:34:14.940)
I'll be your vice president or ban burgers for, for people of a certain weight and make
Lex Fridman (1:34:19.980)
salads cheap.
Yannis Pappas (1:34:21.100)
Three day work weeks.
Lex Fridman (1:34:22.300)
Why has that not happened yet?
Yannis Pappas (1:34:23.300)
Wait, wait.
Lex Fridman (1:34:24.300)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:34:25.300)
Where are you going with this one?
Lex Fridman (1:34:26.300)
Dude, good for the economy.
Lex Fridman (1:34:27.300)
Stimulates the economy, right?
Yannis Pappas (1:34:28.300)
More shifts, creates more jobs, more people spending because they have more leisure time,
Lex Fridman (1:34:32.380)
boosts the leisure economy, you know?
Lex Fridman (1:34:34.940)
Why are we still doing the five day work week that, that was, that was tempered from the
Yannis Pappas (1:34:38.580)
seven day work week.
Yannis Pappas (1:34:39.580)
That was, so the seven, it used to be seven day work week, it used to be like, and people
Yannis Pappas (1:34:43.460)
who are just these libertarians, it's like, come on dude, what, what is this fresh, are
Lex Fridman (1:34:46.780)
we freshmen in college?
Yannis Pappas (1:34:47.780)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:34:48.780)
You're going to, we're going to talk about Ayn Rand next.
Yannis Pappas (1:34:50.300)
Like let's talk about reality.
Lex Fridman (1:34:51.580)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:34:52.580)
And human nature.
Lex Fridman (1:34:53.580)
People are fucking greedy.
Yannis Pappas (1:34:54.580)
They lie.
Lex Fridman (1:34:55.580)
They, you know, there's no end to up, which is one of my favorite expressions.
Yannis Pappas (1:34:59.580)
No end to up.
Lex Fridman (1:35:00.580)
No end to up.
Yannis Pappas (1:35:01.580)
There's no end to up.
Lex Fridman (1:35:02.580)
Can we dissect that?
Yannis Pappas (1:35:03.580)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:35:04.580)
From a Randian perspective.
Yannis Pappas (1:35:05.580)
There's no end to up, which is, uh, you just keep going.
Lex Fridman (1:35:08.620)
It's never enough.
Yannis Pappas (1:35:09.620)
Oh, never enough.
Lex Fridman (1:35:10.620)
Oh, it's never enough.
Yannis Pappas (1:35:11.620)
No end to up.
Lex Fridman (1:35:12.620)
No end to up more.
Lex Fridman (1:35:13.620)
And you know, you have to reconcile your fact that you're going to die.
Lex Fridman (1:35:16.060)
So like this no end up thing is that balance is, is just as valuable as progress.
Lex Fridman (1:35:25.540)
So we have to reconcile those two things and put them on a seesaw and figure out how to
Lex Fridman (1:35:30.780)
get two people who have the equal weight to keep it like that.
Lex Fridman (1:35:34.260)
And that's the goal.
Lex Fridman (1:35:35.260)
And it constantly vacillates, uh, according to the time you sometimes you need a little
Yannis Pappas (1:35:38.780)
more socialism.
Lex Fridman (1:35:39.780)
Sometimes you need a little more capitalism.
Yannis Pappas (1:35:40.860)
You gotta, you gotta, you gotta fly the plane, man.
Lex Fridman (1:35:43.340)
You gotta fly the plane, dude.
Yannis Pappas (1:35:45.060)
What's your, um, looking back at history, is there a moment, time period in history,
Lex Fridman (1:35:52.300)
a person in history that's most fascinating to you?
Yannis Pappas (1:35:54.940)
You mentioned Bernie Madoff, maybe second to Bernie Madoff.
Lex Fridman (1:35:57.980)
Is there in a battle of Crete, is there something that you've always been curious about?
Yannis Pappas (1:36:01.620)
Even if it's something you haven't actually researched that well yet, just something that
Yannis Pappas (1:36:04.860)
pulled at your curiosity that, uh, instructed the way you think about the world.
Yannis Pappas (1:36:09.100)
An individual or an event or an event, individual, uh, you know, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:36:15.660)
Moment in history or a person in history.
Yannis Pappas (1:36:18.700)
Um, there's a few, but, uh, you know, queen Elizabeth, uh, the Elizabethan era, you know,
Yannis Pappas (1:36:25.980)
the sun never sets in the British empire, very successful empire, uh, what an absolute
Yannis Pappas (1:36:33.420)
success story that is, is for a leader and a woman, um, can you tell a little bit about
Lex Fridman (1:36:40.220)
her story?
Yannis Pappas (1:36:41.220)
I actually don't know much about the British empire.
Lex Fridman (1:36:42.220)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (1:36:43.220)
She had a good run.
Yannis Pappas (1:36:44.220)
I think it's like 70 years, you know, as a Shakespeare, they, you know, the, oh, I guess
Yannis Pappas (1:36:47.500)
what's the word, Pax Romana, the, the, uh, the period of Rome that it was at peace and
Lex Fridman (1:36:52.580)
they flourished like a couple of emperors like Trajan or some good ones.
Lex Fridman (1:36:56.380)
And I think he was part of the Pax Romana that sort of just a peace and a comfortable
Yannis Pappas (1:37:00.260)
flourishing time and England, uh, had sort of that in their empire under her successful
Yannis Pappas (1:37:06.420)
reign.
Lex Fridman (1:37:07.420)
She murdered her cousin.
Yannis Pappas (1:37:08.420)
She, you know, the movies, there's, uh, you know, um, Kate Blanchett plays her and, and
Lex Fridman (1:37:12.420)
does so.
Lex Fridman (1:37:13.500)
And she didn't win the Oscar because fucking Gwyneth Paltrow put a, put a British accent
Lex Fridman (1:37:18.420)
on in Shakespeare in love.
Yannis Pappas (1:37:19.660)
It's a tragedy.
Lex Fridman (1:37:20.660)
Why do I know this?
Yannis Pappas (1:37:21.660)
Because I'm not a full man.
Yannis Pappas (1:37:22.660)
I'm a comedian, which means I do skits and I perform, um, and I, uh, Kate Blanchett's
Yannis Pappas (1:37:27.980)
incredible actress at great movies.
Lex Fridman (1:37:30.020)
She was just so, and here's the thing, she, she never got married.
Yannis Pappas (1:37:34.260)
She was, she was so, um, astute at public relations and, and, and, and imagine how strong
Yannis Pappas (1:37:42.620)
you got to be as a woman to lead the greatest empire maybe known to man at the time and
Yannis Pappas (1:37:47.860)
to do so, so successfully.
Lex Fridman (1:37:50.180)
How Machiavellian you have to be, how idealist you have to be, how much of a good marketer
Yannis Pappas (1:37:54.020)
you have to be.
Lex Fridman (1:37:55.020)
Propaganda machine was on point.
Yannis Pappas (1:37:56.400)
She was married to England.
Lex Fridman (1:37:58.180)
She was adored the way she adorned herself.
Yannis Pappas (1:38:01.460)
You walked in, you're like, holy men, God just walked in here.
Lex Fridman (1:38:04.780)
And of course she got fucked.
Lex Fridman (1:38:06.100)
I mean, who doesn't fuck?
Lex Fridman (1:38:07.600)
We all fuck.
Yannis Pappas (1:38:08.820)
Even robots one day will fuck.
Lex Fridman (1:38:10.660)
But she was, she, she did that propaganda thing and historians aren't, uh, haven't,
Yannis Pappas (1:38:16.880)
they haven't decided this, but I believe she fucked.
Lex Fridman (1:38:20.440)
And I believe she did that as a tool of propaganda.
Yannis Pappas (1:38:24.940)
I'm married to England.
Lex Fridman (1:38:26.340)
So you, oh, you're, you're directly referring to like using sex as a way to manipulate people.
Yannis Pappas (1:38:31.180)
Well, she, her, she was known as like the, the Virgin queen.
Lex Fridman (1:38:35.860)
And uh, and her thing was like, I'm married to England.
Yannis Pappas (1:38:37.940)
Like I can't be distracted by man or woman, blah, blah, blah.
Lex Fridman (1:38:40.900)
She never had any kids, nothing.
Yannis Pappas (1:38:42.260)
I think she did that as a tool of manipulation, which you need.
Yannis Pappas (1:38:49.260)
Rulers need to, you know, Obama made you feel good and then he went and bombed, carpet bombed
Yannis Pappas (1:38:53.420)
everywhere.
Lex Fridman (1:38:54.420)
You need to feel good about your guy, no matter how evil they are.
Lex Fridman (1:38:58.220)
And she was fucking a dictator.
Lex Fridman (1:39:00.380)
But when you look back at her, everyone's like, oh my God, she was so great.
Yannis Pappas (1:39:03.700)
The horror and the shit that she had to do, she didn't put that in the history books,
Lex Fridman (1:39:08.240)
but that's what probably was part of what made her successful.
Lex Fridman (1:39:11.980)
And um, she's a fascinating character to, to ponder because she was so successful and,
Lex Fridman (1:39:17.360)
and England flourished so much.
Lex Fridman (1:39:20.200)
And it's just fascinating to me because she was the great Virgin queen.
Lex Fridman (1:39:23.460)
And can you think of, there's no other woman who was that, I mean, Angela Merkel, I mean,
Yannis Pappas (1:39:28.660)
come on.
Yannis Pappas (1:39:29.660)
I mean, there's nobody who comes close and defeating the Spanish Armada, I think that
Yannis Pappas (1:39:33.940)
happened under her.
Lex Fridman (1:39:34.940)
I mean, I'm no professional, but I mean, the, the woman crushed.
Lex Fridman (1:39:39.500)
And uh,
Lex Fridman (1:39:40.500)
Do you think it's more effective to lead by love, which just sounds like what she did
Lex Fridman (1:39:44.180)
from the PR perspective or by fear?
Lex Fridman (1:39:46.380)
Where do you, where do you land on that?
Yannis Pappas (1:39:48.100)
That's a great question.
Lex Fridman (1:39:49.100)
Um, I'm not, we got to ask Joe.
Yannis Pappas (1:39:52.100)
Well, yeah, this is interesting cause I think leading in the 21st century in whatever ways
Lex Fridman (1:39:58.100)
is different.
Yannis Pappas (1:39:59.380)
I think it's very difficult to lead by fear.
Lex Fridman (1:40:01.580)
I mean, um, that's why I find Putin fascinating and like really fascinating.
Yannis Pappas (1:40:08.900)
Like is he a relic of another era or is he something that will still be necessary in
Lex Fridman (1:40:14.260)
the coming decades for certain nations?
Yannis Pappas (1:40:16.500)
I think he's a, I don't think he's a relic from another era.
Yannis Pappas (1:40:19.780)
I think his background, I think he is who you think he is because his background was
Yannis Pappas (1:40:23.980)
in espionage.
Lex Fridman (1:40:25.460)
His background was in subterfuge and espionage.
Yannis Pappas (1:40:28.340)
I think I've said the word subterfuge maybe 10 times now, but he, uh, like big words,
Lex Fridman (1:40:33.620)
intellectuals.
Yannis Pappas (1:40:34.620)
I just sitting here with you.
Lex Fridman (1:40:35.980)
It's my, it's time to flex.
Lex Fridman (1:40:37.820)
Um, but he, um, he's very good at that, right?
Yannis Pappas (1:40:41.140)
Like, uh, controlling people with psychology and even if you look at the way he sort of
Yannis Pappas (1:40:45.660)
used the internet and, um, has sort of been, you know, gotten in to the citizens of other
Lex Fridman (1:40:51.980)
countries opinions and it's very KGB.
Yannis Pappas (1:40:56.660)
He also looks great without a shirt on a pony on a horse on a horse.
Lex Fridman (1:41:00.980)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (1:41:01.980)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (1:41:02.980)
I thought he would choose a pony cause a pony smaller makes him would, uh, would you, would
Lex Fridman (1:41:06.380)
you put queen Elizabeth as the greatest leader of all time?
Lex Fridman (1:41:09.500)
Probably.
Yannis Pappas (1:41:10.500)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (1:41:11.500)
If you look at Elizabeth as a woman and you look at, uh, you look at the, the length of
Yannis Pappas (1:41:16.420)
the reign, I think it's like 70 something years or something like that, that she reigned
Lex Fridman (1:41:21.080)
success man, success.
Yannis Pappas (1:41:23.300)
She used the church, she used public psychology, Shakespeare, the greatest playwright of all
Yannis Pappas (1:41:28.580)
time, uh, under her reign, you know, people were going to plays and, and, uh, it was a,
Yannis Pappas (1:41:34.460)
it was a success front and she was marauding everywhere else marauding and culling resources
Lex Fridman (1:41:40.140)
for the empire and just say a absolute successful.
Yannis Pappas (1:41:44.540)
It's even, uh, a token of her success.
Lex Fridman (1:41:46.940)
We don't consider her a dictator.
Yannis Pappas (1:41:48.580)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:41:49.580)
She's a dictator, you know, she was queen.
Yannis Pappas (1:41:51.660)
I, this is my thing I love about the feudal system that these fucking countries still
Lex Fridman (1:41:55.500)
have feudal systems.
Yannis Pappas (1:41:56.620)
They're celebrating a horrible thing, divine right of Kings oppression, Kings were dictators
Lex Fridman (1:42:03.360)
and now they have fucking ceremonial.
Lex Fridman (1:42:05.380)
Why don't we have a ceremonial Fuhrer?
Lex Fridman (1:42:07.780)
What is in German?
Yannis Pappas (1:42:08.780)
He doesn't do any of the bad stuff.
Lex Fridman (1:42:09.780)
He just rolls around and does, I mean, it's like, what the fuck?
Yannis Pappas (1:42:13.220)
There's no difference between a Hitler and a fucking King.
Lex Fridman (1:42:15.860)
They did the same horrible shit.
Lex Fridman (1:42:17.780)
Why not a fucking ceremonial conqueror, Alexander the Great walks in, rapes a little bit, but
Lex Fridman (1:42:22.100)
it's all fun.
Yannis Pappas (1:42:23.100)
It's for ceremony.
Lex Fridman (1:42:24.100)
He represents the country.
Yannis Pappas (1:42:25.100)
Macedonia is Greek.
Yannis Pappas (1:42:26.820)
It's interesting to see that, uh, some you're starting to see a bit of that in Russia was
Yannis Pappas (1:42:32.900)
Stalin, actually the celebration of a, of a man that helped win the great patriotic war.
Lex Fridman (1:42:40.180)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (1:42:41.180)
Right.
Lex Fridman (1:42:42.180)
So like you, you're already starting to see that it's very possible in history books,
Yannis Pappas (1:42:44.940)
you'll be seen as maybe like a Genghis Khan type of character and you forget the millions
Lex Fridman (1:42:50.100)
that he tortured.
Lex Fridman (1:42:51.860)
So you're one of the most successful and brilliant people the world has ever seen.
Lex Fridman (1:42:55.620)
So you're the good person to ask, uh, for advice.
Yannis Pappas (1:42:59.660)
You know, there's a lot of young people that look up to you, uh, God bless their souls
Lex Fridman (1:43:04.300)
and hearts.
Yannis Pappas (1:43:05.300)
Made the right choice.
Lex Fridman (1:43:06.700)
What advice would you give to a young person?
Yannis Pappas (1:43:08.820)
Maybe to yourself, to a young version of yourself, you know, and just how to live a successful,
Lex Fridman (1:43:14.720)
a good life.
Yannis Pappas (1:43:16.560)
Be doggedly you.
Yannis Pappas (1:43:18.220)
I think the magic happens when you are stubbornly doggedly you and you meet other people who
Yannis Pappas (1:43:25.140)
are doing the same and, um, the real magic of life, the real true currency in this ephemeral
Lex Fridman (1:43:30.540)
life is sort of the communication that happens between people.
Yannis Pappas (1:43:35.700)
Uh, that's the real currency, friendships, love, it's, it's cliche, but it's a, I think
Lex Fridman (1:43:40.620)
the meaning of life is to experience, to experience love.
Yannis Pappas (1:43:45.300)
And, uh, I think, uh, people often mistake, maybe it's because of Hollywood films and
Lex Fridman (1:43:49.220)
things like that, that love is a feeling, but it's not, it's an action.
Yannis Pappas (1:43:54.860)
So, uh, that took me a while to learn and I think that's why I've made decisions since
Lex Fridman (1:43:59.380)
that I think have been good for me and healthy for me.
Yannis Pappas (1:44:01.860)
Love is an action.
Yannis Pappas (1:44:03.380)
People can say things, you can feel things, um, that doesn't mean they're necessarily
Yannis Pappas (1:44:08.140)
real.
Lex Fridman (1:44:09.140)
It's all chemical reactions.
Yannis Pappas (1:44:10.260)
It's all, um, tied to our immaturity and, uh, psychological issues and, uh, survival,
Lex Fridman (1:44:17.180)
but action when some, when you do things, when you act out of love and you, the, that's,
Yannis Pappas (1:44:24.100)
that's what it's about.
Yannis Pappas (1:44:25.300)
Is there, uh, times when you were younger where you were kind of dishonest with who
Yannis Pappas (1:44:31.380)
you are to yourself in terms of like, what, what kind of things did you have to do to,
Yannis Pappas (1:44:36.700)
to shake yourself up and be like, okay, I thought, um, I thought I'm going to be a scientist,
Lex Fridman (1:44:41.900)
but instead I realized I'm going to do this.
Lex Fridman (1:44:44.180)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (1:44:45.180)
My parents were funny.
Lex Fridman (1:44:46.180)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (1:44:47.180)
My, my comedy is a hard, hard thing to explain to, uh, you know, an immigrant mother who
Yannis Pappas (1:44:50.580)
came here and under Nazi occupied Crete and became a human rights lawyer and lawyer.
Yannis Pappas (1:44:55.540)
And, uh, my brother's a lawyer and my father was a lawyer, you know, clawed his way up.
Lex Fridman (1:44:59.460)
His dad was a, was a, um, so your disappointment, um, the black sheep.
Yannis Pappas (1:45:04.140)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (1:45:05.140)
My brother went to Oxford Georgetown law at Brown, you know, has a master's in pot, you
Yannis Pappas (1:45:11.820)
know, law degrees.
Yannis Pappas (1:45:13.020)
My mother has followed up for law degrees, uh, you know, uh, she was on the human rights
Yannis Pappas (1:45:17.580)
commission in New York up for a judgeship under Dinkins, um, wrote a, you know, um,
Lex Fridman (1:45:22.700)
she was the editor of Unitar.
Yannis Pappas (1:45:24.740)
She wrote a seminal piece on the human rights of children for the United Nations.
Lex Fridman (1:45:27.940)
Um, and, uh, yeah, it was a comedian.
Yannis Pappas (1:45:30.260)
I was always a fuck up.
Yannis Pappas (1:45:31.540)
And, uh, the thing that I was best at, the only thing I was ever decent at was just like
Yannis Pappas (1:45:35.780)
making people laugh.
Lex Fridman (1:45:36.780)
I don't know why.
Yannis Pappas (1:45:37.780)
I don't know where that comes from, but, uh, was there ever a question or did, was there
Lex Fridman (1:45:41.660)
a moment where you decided this is what I'm going to do?
Yannis Pappas (1:45:44.020)
There was a moment after I graduated college.
Lex Fridman (1:45:45.900)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (1:45:46.900)
I was just thinking about all types of stuff that other people imposed on me.
Yannis Pappas (1:45:51.020)
And, um, I was honest with myself and once I figured out it was an actual career path,
Yannis Pappas (1:45:55.180)
I wasn't even aware back then the internet wasn't huge, you know, late 99, 2000 it wasn't
Lex Fridman (1:46:00.220)
big yet.
Lex Fridman (1:46:01.220)
So I didn't, I thought Robin Williams was just like an actor.
Lex Fridman (1:46:02.980)
I didn't know there was comedy clubs and all.
Lex Fridman (1:46:04.980)
So once I learned that I was just like, I tried it.
Lex Fridman (1:46:07.820)
I suffer from massive anxiety.
Yannis Pappas (1:46:09.900)
I remember the first time I did comedy, my arms went numb.
Lex Fridman (1:46:12.340)
I started having a massive panic attack.
Yannis Pappas (1:46:14.220)
I have my first set.
Lex Fridman (1:46:15.300)
I can show it to you.
Yannis Pappas (1:46:16.300)
I suggest I just come video.
Lex Fridman (1:46:17.860)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (1:46:18.860)
I'm video.
Lex Fridman (1:46:19.860)
Thank you.
Yannis Pappas (1:46:20.860)
Thank you.
Lex Fridman (1:46:21.860)
Thank you.
Lex Fridman (1:46:22.860)
And the reason why I kept saying thank you is because I forgot my old jokes.
Lex Fridman (1:46:23.860)
I was so scared.
Lex Fridman (1:46:24.860)
And then they laughed because of the amount of times I said thank you.
Lex Fridman (1:46:26.740)
And then once they laughed, I was, I remembered the whole thing and I did the five minutes
Lex Fridman (1:46:31.300)
and I remember getting off.
Lex Fridman (1:46:32.500)
And for a person who never felt like he had a place anywhere, nothing ever felt right.
Yannis Pappas (1:46:37.360)
That felt like, okay, I found it.
Lex Fridman (1:46:39.580)
This is what I'm supposed to do.
Yannis Pappas (1:46:41.220)
This is it.
Lex Fridman (1:46:42.220)
It was the only time in my life I felt that I haven't felt that sense.
Yannis Pappas (1:46:45.260)
Never felt it before.
Lex Fridman (1:46:46.660)
So that's the only thing I can do.
Lex Fridman (1:46:48.600)
And yeah, I had that, you know, it's funny cause there's a similar experience like immigrant
Yannis Pappas (1:46:53.500)
family and the world tells you to do certain things and you think that's right, but, but
Yannis Pappas (1:46:59.500)
then you put yourself in situations by luck probably where it's like, oh, this, this,
Lex Fridman (1:47:07.860)
this feels right.
Yannis Pappas (1:47:08.940)
I don't know what this means, but this feels right.
Yannis Pappas (1:47:11.220)
I think the biggest moment like that for me was, I don't know what to make of it exactly,
Lex Fridman (1:47:17.300)
but when I met Spot, the robot, the legged robot, it was like five years ago, it felt
Yannis Pappas (1:47:23.980)
like this, the depth of fascinating ideas that are yet to be explored with this thing.
Yannis Pappas (1:47:31.540)
This felt like a journey.
Lex Fridman (1:47:32.540)
It was like a door that opened and I was like, I don't want to be a professor.
Yannis Pappas (1:47:38.140)
At that point I realized I don't want to do sort of a generic stuff.
Lex Fridman (1:47:43.260)
I want to do something crazy.
Yannis Pappas (1:47:44.940)
I want to do something big.
Lex Fridman (1:47:46.820)
That's the reason I stepped away from MIT.
Yannis Pappas (1:47:48.620)
That's the reason I have this burning desire to do a startup.
Lex Fridman (1:47:51.800)
That's the reason I came to Austin.
Yannis Pappas (1:47:53.060)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:47:54.060)
I don't know what the hell it all means, but you just kind of follow that.
Yannis Pappas (1:47:57.660)
That's awesome.
Lex Fridman (1:47:58.660)
That sounds like you're following what's doggedly you.
Lex Fridman (1:48:00.360)
And also I think I just to, just to piggyback off it, I think that means no matter what
Yannis Pappas (1:48:06.760)
it is, because I think our, the American dream is sold like, Hey, if you're not Beyonce or
Yannis Pappas (1:48:12.100)
if you're not famous, you're not worth it.
Lex Fridman (1:48:14.100)
I hate that.
Lex Fridman (1:48:15.300)
And that's what I love so much about certain countries like Sweden, it's like where everyone
Lex Fridman (1:48:19.560)
has healthcare and stuff like that because everyone's a little is valued more.
Yannis Pappas (1:48:22.560)
It's like whatever, if you want to be a doorman, do it like it's all the same.
Lex Fridman (1:48:26.780)
Prince was not happy.
Yannis Pappas (1:48:28.280)
There's no, just because you're rich or famous, you're still the same guy with your possessions
Lex Fridman (1:48:33.160)
are a lot little, you know?
Yannis Pappas (1:48:34.860)
It's like, I have met some doormen.
Lex Fridman (1:48:37.380)
I have met some tax cappers that I lie to you not are more fascinating.
Yannis Pappas (1:48:42.020)
I have comedians are horrible people, so I want to get away from all of them.
Yannis Pappas (1:48:47.060)
I have very few friends, Paul Verzi, Tim Dillon, who are comedians because they're awful, awful
Yannis Pappas (1:48:52.540)
people.
Yannis Pappas (1:48:53.540)
Some of the people who you know the most, who are the most famous are not who they say
Yannis Pappas (1:48:58.300)
they are.
Lex Fridman (1:48:59.300)
Usually that's the case.
Yannis Pappas (1:49:00.300)
They're putting on that public facade because they're fucking sociopaths and they're horrible
Yannis Pappas (1:49:04.660)
people and some of the most beautiful people I've met and the most interesting people I've
Yannis Pappas (1:49:08.220)
met have regular jobs.
Lex Fridman (1:49:10.020)
There is no shame in any fucking job.
Yannis Pappas (1:49:13.380)
We don't all have to be rappers with like rims.
Lex Fridman (1:49:16.340)
It's just a weird thing.
Yannis Pappas (1:49:17.340)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:49:18.340)
Fame is a drug and yeah, comedians, I agree with you.
Yannis Pappas (1:49:22.340)
There's some part of me that knows that there'll be a moment in my life when I'm standing there
Yannis Pappas (1:49:28.460)
with like a sword or a knife in my stomach and looking at Tim Dillon's smiling face saying
Yannis Pappas (1:49:37.860)
you shouldn't have trusted me, you stupid fuck.
Lex Fridman (1:49:41.820)
So on that note, Yannis, I've been a huge fan of yours.
Yannis Pappas (1:49:46.180)
I love what you're doing with Long Days Now, your new podcast, and I obviously love all
Yannis Pappas (1:49:51.660)
the stuff you've done before with History of Hyenas, the chemistry you have with yourself
Yannis Pappas (1:49:56.540)
is also fun to watch.
Lex Fridman (1:49:57.540)
So man, I'm a huge fan.
Yannis Pappas (1:49:58.540)
It's a huge honor that you come down here.
Lex Fridman (1:50:00.860)
Thanks so much for talking to me.
Yannis Pappas (1:50:01.860)
It means so much to me to hear you say that.
Lex Fridman (1:50:03.380)
I really appreciate it.
Yannis Pappas (1:50:04.380)
I'm a big fan of yours and having me on has been amazing and just thank you, man.
Yannis Pappas (1:50:07.420)
Thank you for having me on and people, if they want to watch my special, it's called
Yannis Pappas (1:50:10.740)
Blowing the Light.
Yannis Pappas (1:50:11.740)
It's on YouTube and please come listen to Long Days of Podcasts and let's go eat some
Yannis Pappas (1:50:15.220)
barbecue.
Lex Fridman (1:50:16.220)
Let's do it.
Yannis Pappas (1:50:17.380)
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Yannis Papas and thank you to Wine Access,
Lex Fridman (1:50:22.620)
Blinkist, Magic Spoon, and Indeed.
Yannis Pappas (1:50:25.860)
Check them out in the description to support this podcast.
Lex Fridman (1:50:29.100)
And now let me leave you with some words from Karl Marx.
Yannis Pappas (1:50:32.980)
Revolutions are the locomotives of history.
Lex Fridman (1:50:37.180)
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
Lex Fridman (20:01.360)
And um,
Lex Fridman (20:02.360)
See, we just changed your mind.
Yannis Pappas (20:03.600)
You kind of like the immortality.
Lex Fridman (20:04.880)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (20:05.880)
I kind of like it.
Lex Fridman (20:06.880)
No.
Lex Fridman (20:07.880)
So there'll be no thirsts.
Lex Fridman (20:08.880)
No.
Yannis Pappas (20:09.880)
You can always put it off.
Lex Fridman (20:10.880)
You don't want to bang this girl.
Yannis Pappas (20:11.880)
You're like, ah, put it off.
Lex Fridman (20:13.920)
But now I'm thinking about Muslim heaven and they may be offering the best deal.
Yannis Pappas (20:16.680)
I mean, if it was an expo and they had a booth, I may go with them because they offer, they
Lex Fridman (20:23.160)
offer 62 or 72, but then I'd get sick of them.
Yannis Pappas (20:26.240)
I'd want to, I don't know.
Yannis Pappas (20:28.080)
I always wondered like, are you given the 62 virgins or you choose, can you create them
Lex Fridman (20:33.300)
like an avatar, like a video game, or are you just given?
Lex Fridman (20:36.540)
I don't know what the number, why it's important to have that high number.
Yannis Pappas (20:39.280)
First of all, I think it's a mistranslation about the virgins, but outside of that, outside
Lex Fridman (20:44.800)
of that, I feel like the conversation is really important.
Yannis Pappas (20:48.160)
I don't think they ever specify like what kind of books these girls read.
Lex Fridman (20:52.400)
Like what are they, what are they into?
Yannis Pappas (20:54.920)
Like the quality of the conversation, I think if you're talking about eternity, the quality
Yannis Pappas (20:59.080)
of the intellect and the conversation and the personalities is way more important.
Lex Fridman (21:03.000)
And the Greeks have an ancient, ancient expression, pat metronaros stone, which my mother always
Lex Fridman (21:07.120)
used to say, which is everything in moderation, nothing in excess.
Lex Fridman (21:10.680)
So trying to always get the status quo and uh, yeah, that many women, eventually it's
Lex Fridman (21:16.620)
like the magic Johnson effect, Isaiah Thomas effect.
Yannis Pappas (21:19.560)
It's just too much and you're going to end up, you're going to end up banging a dude
Lex Fridman (21:22.480)
is what I'm saying.
Yannis Pappas (21:23.480)
You're going to get sick of it cause it's too much and there's going to be a eunuch
Lex Fridman (21:27.740)
that finds its way into your harem.
Yannis Pappas (21:29.720)
That's been proven throughout history, every empire, when you have all that power.
Lex Fridman (21:33.840)
And again, this goes back to power corrupting.
Yannis Pappas (21:35.980)
If you have, if there's no struggle, there's no meaning, there's the value is from the
Lex Fridman (21:40.560)
journey, the, the working hard to struggle.
Lex Fridman (21:43.040)
And if it's just given to you because you're a Sultan or you're Alexander the Great or
Lex Fridman (21:47.800)
whatever, you're going to get bored and you're going to bang a dude.
Yannis Pappas (21:50.960)
That's it's, I think that's a scientific axiom actually.
Lex Fridman (21:54.000)
Eventually you'll get bored and bang a dude.
Yannis Pappas (21:55.600)
Yeah, but I think it won't stop there.
Lex Fridman (21:57.320)
I think you'll go to animals, you go to robot.
Yannis Pappas (21:59.240)
I mean, eventually it all ends up in robots and then the robots rebel and then the humans
Lex Fridman (22:02.980)
will be destroyed.
Yannis Pappas (22:03.980)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (22:04.980)
I'm sorry.
Yannis Pappas (22:05.980)
If, if we're speaking truth, you said the value of life, one of the highest ideals is
Lex Fridman (22:12.320)
to seek truth.
Yannis Pappas (22:13.320)
I think if we're being honest.
Lex Fridman (22:14.320)
Can I ask you a quick question?
Yannis Pappas (22:15.320)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (22:16.320)
If you, if you live in a small, I come from small islands, right?
Lex Fridman (22:18.200)
And so there's a stereotype that that's where they bang animals.
Lex Fridman (22:20.480)
But if you come from a very small community, you know, an island or something, and you
Yannis Pappas (22:24.320)
have the choice of banging a family member or an animal, which one is worse on the moral
Lex Fridman (22:28.040)
scale?
Yannis Pappas (22:29.040)
Because you're technically not related to the animal.
Lex Fridman (22:31.760)
Right.
Yannis Pappas (22:32.760)
This is interesting.
Yannis Pappas (22:33.760)
I mean, these are human constructs, these ideas, but yet for me personally, taboo would
Yannis Pappas (22:37.280)
be more taboo to, uh, to, to have sex with a family member.
Lex Fridman (22:40.720)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (22:41.720)
I mean, animal.
Lex Fridman (22:42.720)
I mean, okay.
Yannis Pappas (22:43.720)
It's good to know where you stand on that.
Yannis Pappas (22:44.720)
I think if viewers, you know, if they didn't have, they didn't know they had that question.
Yannis Pappas (22:47.720)
I just, they just learned a little bit about you.
Lex Fridman (22:49.800)
And now I know.
Yannis Pappas (22:50.800)
I look forward to the internet clipping that out.
Lex Fridman (22:53.240)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (22:54.240)
I mean, there, there is, listen, uh, in some, outside of, outside of that, I do think about
Lex Fridman (23:01.400)
that a lot.
Yannis Pappas (23:02.400)
I think it's kind of ridiculous, uh, about morality connected to animals in terms of
Lex Fridman (23:06.840)
all the, the, the factory farming and so on.
Yannis Pappas (23:10.000)
It seems like that's one of the things we'll look, cause I love meat, but I kind of feel
Yannis Pappas (23:14.600)
bad about it and, and bad in a way where I think if we look like a hundred years from
Yannis Pappas (23:21.160)
now, we'll look back at this time as like one of the great like tortures and injustices
Lex Fridman (23:28.400)
that we humans have committed.
Lex Fridman (23:30.480)
And I mean, all that has to do with the sex with the animal has to do with consent and
Lex Fridman (23:34.960)
about the experience of suffering of animals.
Yannis Pappas (23:37.720)
The reason I think about that personally a lot, cause I think about robotics, I think
Yannis Pappas (23:42.480)
about creating artificial consciousnesses, uh, or artificial like beings that have some
Yannis Pappas (23:50.540)
elements of the human nature.
Lex Fridman (23:52.280)
And then you start to think like, well, what does it mean to suffer?
Lex Fridman (23:55.560)
What does it mean for entity to exist such that it deserves rights?
Yannis Pappas (24:00.860)
This is something that the founding fathers were thinking about, like, you know, all men
Yannis Pappas (24:05.120)
are created equal.
Lex Fridman (24:06.120)
What does it, which, who is included in the men who, who's not in that, in that sentence
Lex Fridman (24:11.560)
and our animals included in that are robots.
Yannis Pappas (24:14.440)
I honestly think that there will be a civil rights movement for robots in the future.
Yannis Pappas (24:18.240)
I don't, I don't know.
Yannis Pappas (24:19.960)
Is that the Turing test, the way you try to, is that what they call it where you're trying
Lex Fridman (24:23.040)
to see if AI can think like a human or whatever, or feel like a human?
Lex Fridman (24:28.920)
Well, it's a, the Turing test closely defined as more about talk like a human.
Lex Fridman (24:34.640)
So you can, you can imagine systems that are able to, you can have a conversation like
Yannis Pappas (24:39.720)
this and I would be a robot for example, but that doesn't mean I would do in a, in society.
Yannis Pappas (24:46.360)
That doesn't mean I deserve rights or that doesn't mean I would be conscious.
Yannis Pappas (24:50.880)
It doesn't mean that I would be able to suffer and to experience pleasure and dream and all
Yannis Pappas (24:55.840)
those kinds of human things.
Yannis Pappas (24:57.840)
The question isn't whether you're able to talk, which is passed in the Turing test.
Yannis Pappas (25:01.300)
The question is whether you're able to feel, to be, I mean, I go back to suffering.
Lex Fridman (25:08.760)
The thing that the, that our documents protect us against is suffering.
Yannis Pappas (25:14.560)
Like we don't want humans to suffer.
Lex Fridman (25:17.280)
And if a robot can suffer, that discussion starts being about like, well, shouldn't we
Lex Fridman (25:25.280)
protect them?
Lex Fridman (25:27.420)
Currently we don't protect animals.
Yannis Pappas (25:29.040)
We protect that dog.
Lex Fridman (25:30.420)
There's laws.
Yannis Pappas (25:31.420)
There's actual legislation that protects dogs for torture places.
Lex Fridman (25:34.080)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (25:35.080)
And you know what?
Lex Fridman (25:36.080)
Dogs is something I don't think people really understand enough about.
Yannis Pappas (25:38.860)
It's one of my obsessions.
Lex Fridman (25:39.920)
So they, they, my dad always used to say those, he goes, those things are, those things are
Yannis Pappas (25:45.980)
basically human.
Lex Fridman (25:47.340)
And I mean, they dream, they have anxiety.
Lex Fridman (25:51.080)
And what people often overlook about dogs is without dogs, we wouldn't be here.
Yannis Pappas (25:55.200)
We would not have ever evolved from hunter gatherer to agrarian to, you know, civilization.
Yannis Pappas (26:03.980)
We wouldn't have cities.
Lex Fridman (26:05.180)
We wouldn't have anything.
Yannis Pappas (26:06.180)
I mean, they are our partner in survival and they are a magical animal.
Lex Fridman (26:10.620)
There's no, there's no animal that was, it was like destiny almost.
Yannis Pappas (26:14.280)
I mean, a malleable animal, there's no animal that's that malleable that in a few generations
Lex Fridman (26:19.180)
you can tailor to a specific job that you need.
Lex Fridman (26:22.680)
And without that animal, without dogs doing that animal, protecting our crops from, from,
Lex Fridman (26:28.300)
you know scavengers and stuff like that, you know, the list goes on.
Yannis Pappas (26:32.940)
We wouldn't be here.
Lex Fridman (26:34.100)
So we, that's an often overlooked fact that human evolution was not done in a vacuum just
Yannis Pappas (26:41.860)
with humans.
Lex Fridman (26:42.860)
Without dogs, we would have never evolved.
Yannis Pappas (26:44.260)
I mean, we weren't the apex predator for most of our existence.
Lex Fridman (26:46.460)
We weren't even the apex predator.
Yannis Pappas (26:47.460)
I mean, we're getting eaten by hyenas, which is my favorite animal and you know, that's
Lex Fridman (26:51.500)
kind of an injustice to, I mean, I'm kind of mad at dogs.
Yannis Pappas (26:54.420)
We deserve to get eaten by hyenas, but without dogs, we wouldn't be here and dogs, dogs deserve
Lex Fridman (26:59.980)
the protection.
Lex Fridman (27:00.980)
So do horses.
Yannis Pappas (27:01.980)
They fucking lugged us around for thousands of years and now these fucking German psychopaths
Yannis Pappas (27:06.220)
are eating them or whatever.
Lex Fridman (27:07.920)
We should not eat horse meat just on like, be a good dude, man.
Yannis Pappas (27:11.820)
These things lugged us around for generations, they're beautiful, you know, ride them or
Lex Fridman (27:15.740)
I don't know.
Yannis Pappas (27:16.740)
I don't know, but it rubs me the wrong way that we eat horses.
Yannis Pappas (27:19.980)
Yeah, the horses one is interesting and one of my favorite books is Animal Farm by Orwell
Lex Fridman (27:24.780)
and the horses don't get a good ending in that, I kind of, my spirit animal I suppose
Lex Fridman (27:31.460)
is the horse from Animal Farm, Boxer, where he says, I will work harder.
Yannis Pappas (27:36.480)
That's his motto.
Lex Fridman (27:37.900)
I work really hard at stupid things.
Yannis Pappas (27:41.300)
That's basically what I, I just hit my head against the wall for no reason whatsoever.
Lex Fridman (27:45.180)
But that probably fulfills, you have a big brain, you were probably born with a big brain
Yannis Pappas (27:47.980)
that kind of fulfills.
Lex Fridman (27:48.980)
It's killing neurons.
Yannis Pappas (27:50.380)
It's exercise for you.
Lex Fridman (27:51.380)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (27:52.380)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (27:53.380)
Don't you think some animals deserve to be eaten though?
Yannis Pappas (27:54.940)
Kind of like.
Lex Fridman (27:55.940)
Hyenas.
Yannis Pappas (27:56.940)
Come on, dude.
Lex Fridman (27:57.940)
I mean, you gotta respect the hyena.
Yannis Pappas (28:00.140)
Okay, so let's look, first of all, let me just comment on the dog thing.
Yannis Pappas (28:03.020)
There is like conferences on dog cognition from a perspective of people that study psychology,
Yannis Pappas (28:08.460)
cognitive science, neuroscience, dogs are fascinating.
Yannis Pappas (28:12.340)
The way they move their eyes, they're able to, they're the only other animal besides
Yannis Pappas (28:15.980)
humans, they're able to communicate with their eyes.
Yannis Pappas (28:18.880)
They can look at a thing and look back at you and look back at the thing to communicate
Yannis Pappas (28:23.300)
that we're all like through our eyes, communicate that we're collaborating.
Lex Fridman (28:27.080)
So every other animal uses their eyes to actually look at things.
Yannis Pappas (28:31.620)
The dogs use it to like communicate with you, with us humans.
Lex Fridman (28:35.420)
It's fascinating.
Yannis Pappas (28:36.420)
There are a lot of other elements of dogs that are amazing.
Yannis Pappas (28:38.620)
Yeah, I mean, if it wasn't for them, they're the ones, they were our first alarm system
Yannis Pappas (28:42.900)
for predators.
Lex Fridman (28:43.900)
They would defend us.
Yannis Pappas (28:44.900)
I mean, the Basenji is one of the most ancient dogs.
Lex Fridman (28:46.420)
I mean, they're tiny, but they're fearless and they would chase off lions.
Yannis Pappas (28:49.780)
Like there'd be packs of them and they chase off lions and protect the tribes.
Yannis Pappas (28:54.500)
I even get tingles like thinking about dogs because I have a dog, I love my dog.
Lex Fridman (28:59.020)
And there's something about when you're walking with your dog off leash in the woods, there's
Yannis Pappas (29:02.820)
something about it that's like, that tugs at that millions of years of evolution, like
Yannis Pappas (29:09.180)
that gut, you know, it's like, I had a Finnish friend of mine, he's a comic, Tommy Valamies
Lex Fridman (29:13.900)
once told me, he was like, he was like, the gut, he's like, I believe in it.
Yannis Pappas (29:18.480)
Like that gut, you know, when you have that feeling, he's like, always trust that because
Lex Fridman (29:21.860)
that is million, those are all your ancestors.
Yannis Pappas (29:25.760)
That's the survival instinct of all your ancestors at the beginning of time, you know, telling
Yannis Pappas (29:30.820)
you like, Hey, something's off here, something's, you know, so don't get in the car with Ted
Lex Fridman (29:34.100)
Bundy is what I'm saying, ladies, how fucking stupid, who, how can you fall for that?
Lex Fridman (29:38.300)
You know, he's got a fucking sling on, don't get in.
Yannis Pappas (29:40.660)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (29:41.660)
Follow the gut.
Lex Fridman (29:42.660)
My question to you, are psychopaths essentially robots?
Lex Fridman (29:46.260)
So first of all, let's not, you're using the word robot in a derogatory way that I, I'm
Yannis Pappas (29:51.620)
triggered by.
Lex Fridman (29:52.620)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (29:53.620)
So I feel offended.
Yannis Pappas (29:54.620)
You should be because you know what, people are always scared of robots, but I actually,
Yannis Pappas (29:59.420)
I have, I've made the sort of, uh, I, I've made it to say, Hey, I've, I thought about
Lex Fridman (30:05.180)
it and like robot, robots have been nothing but helpful.
Yannis Pappas (30:07.660)
It's the people we should be scared of.
Yannis Pappas (30:09.500)
Again, we're kind of missing the most destructive thing is us because it's, but robots are helpful.
Yannis Pappas (30:15.180)
I mean, this is a fucking robot.
Yannis Pappas (30:17.020)
You know, I went on hotel tonight, I'm already booked up, you know, I got my, I can change
Yannis Pappas (30:20.480)
my flight if, if this barbecue with Rogan goes 16 hours, which whatever Rogan wants
Lex Fridman (30:24.580)
to do, I'll do it.
Yannis Pappas (30:25.580)
If he wants to kick me in the chest, I'll let him kick me in the chest, whatever.
Lex Fridman (30:29.380)
Robots are helpful.
Lex Fridman (30:30.380)
No?
Lex Fridman (30:31.380)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (30:32.380)
Uh, tanks and autonomous weapons systems don't kill people.
Lex Fridman (30:35.060)
People kill people.
Yannis Pappas (30:36.060)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (30:37.060)
That's yeah.
Yannis Pappas (30:38.060)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (30:39.060)
The NRA is about to collect that for you.
Yannis Pappas (30:42.060)
Uh, a lot of love for dogs.
Lex Fridman (30:44.460)
I appreciate it very much.
Lex Fridman (30:45.460)
And at the same time, you have the other thing that people seem to have love for, which is
Lex Fridman (30:49.540)
cats.
Lex Fridman (30:50.660)
And on the flip side of everything you've said, I'm trying to understand what have cats
Lex Fridman (30:56.140)
ever done for human civilization?
Yannis Pappas (30:58.040)
They keep rodents away.
Lex Fridman (30:59.420)
The domesticated cat is very important.
Yannis Pappas (31:01.380)
Keeps the rodents away.
Lex Fridman (31:02.380)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (31:03.380)
That's what they were domesticated for.
Yannis Pappas (31:04.380)
I mean, they're psychopathic killers who ended up killing, uh, innocent, um, neighborhood
Yannis Pappas (31:10.100)
chipmunks and, and birds, uh, they really affect the, uh, the balance of the local ecosystem.
Lex Fridman (31:18.140)
But if you have love for cats too, not as much as dogs, I mean, dogs are, like you said,
Yannis Pappas (31:22.780)
they look at humans.
Yannis Pappas (31:23.780)
I actually read an article that some people were theorizing they're smarter than chimps
Yannis Pappas (31:26.980)
because of the way they can work with humans.
Lex Fridman (31:29.100)
And there was one border collie that spoke like 300 words, like a quarter, like a lang,
Yannis Pappas (31:33.860)
almost part of the language.
Lex Fridman (31:35.500)
And their nose is like a mat.
Yannis Pappas (31:36.780)
I mean, that's like magic, dude.
Yannis Pappas (31:38.380)
If you can smell in my ass to what I had for breakfast from miles away, that's intelligence.
Yannis Pappas (31:43.340)
That's intelligence.
Yannis Pappas (31:44.340)
I mean, in some ways that their nose, if you were to put it on a scale, maybe their nose
Yannis Pappas (31:48.760)
is more intelligent than our brain for what it does.
Lex Fridman (31:51.980)
You know, it's like, I mean, dude, they can smell you from miles away.
Lex Fridman (31:54.940)
You ever see a dog just like sniffing, catching?
Yannis Pappas (31:57.340)
I mean, it's smelling like, I don't remember the, the, the date on it, but it's like, they
Yannis Pappas (32:01.900)
have like millions of receptors or something where we only, you know, thank God we don't
Lex Fridman (32:06.340)
have their nose.
Yannis Pappas (32:07.340)
That would be, that would make sex weird, be a little too intense.
Yannis Pappas (32:13.700)
I think you mentioned when you were talking about Woody Allen separating the, the art
Yannis Pappas (32:18.060)
from the artist.
Lex Fridman (32:19.460)
So that brings to mind Vladimir Putin.
Lex Fridman (32:24.780)
How about that transition?
Lex Fridman (32:25.780)
I don't know.
Yannis Pappas (32:26.780)
I'm so sorry.
Lex Fridman (32:29.140)
But if you look at just powerful leaders throughout history, Stalin, Hitler, but even modern ones
Yannis Pappas (32:36.220)
like Putin, and we're talking about power.
Lex Fridman (32:40.580)
How do you explain them?
Yannis Pappas (32:42.280)
You said that power reveals, not corrupts, but do you think there's some element to which
Lex Fridman (32:50.580)
power corrupted Hitler, power corrupted Stalin after he gained power?
Lex Fridman (32:55.340)
And the same with Putin.
Yannis Pappas (32:56.860)
When Putin gained power in 2000, do you think the amount of power that he was in possession
Lex Fridman (33:01.780)
with for many years, do you think that corrupted him?
Lex Fridman (33:04.420)
I mean, we're joking about dictators get the job done.
Yannis Pappas (33:07.900)
There is some sense in certain countries where a dictator is the only thing that can stabilize
Lex Fridman (33:16.680)
a nation.
Yannis Pappas (33:19.380)
The counter argument to that for democracies is like, yeah, but that's a short term solution
Lex Fridman (33:24.780)
for a long term problem.
Lex Fridman (33:26.140)
So you want to embrace chaos with democracy.
Lex Fridman (33:29.140)
That might be violent.
Yannis Pappas (33:30.520)
There might be a lot of just constant changing of leadership.
Yannis Pappas (33:35.540)
There might be a lot of corruption in the short term, but if you stay strong with the
Yannis Pappas (33:42.060)
ideals of democracy, then you'll be ultimately create something that as beautiful and stable
Lex Fridman (33:47.860)
as the United States.
Yannis Pappas (33:51.580)
The sad thing is, is I don't know if history tells that story.
Yannis Pappas (33:55.660)
It's like I said, you look at Greece, you look at Rome, democracy kind of failed.
Yannis Pappas (33:59.740)
The majority of Rome, the most successful empire that we've had, was a dictatorship
Lex Fridman (34:07.460)
for most of its run.
Lex Fridman (34:10.760)
But I do believe in a republic, which is sort of a limited democracy.
Lex Fridman (34:14.460)
I do believe in what we have here.
Yannis Pappas (34:17.060)
I believe in common law.
Lex Fridman (34:18.060)
I believe in individual rights.
Lex Fridman (34:23.700)
But yeah, I think you said it.
Lex Fridman (34:26.580)
Nobody could have said it better.
Yannis Pappas (34:27.580)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (34:28.580)
It's a short term solution.
Yannis Pappas (34:29.580)
You look at Saddam Hussein, he kind of, when we took him out, then there was a lot of infighting
Yannis Pappas (34:35.840)
that happened that he was kind of keeping at bay because he was a strong man, dictator.
Yannis Pappas (34:43.100)
Well, he's an interesting one, sorry to interrupt.
Yannis Pappas (34:46.220)
From my understanding, I'm sure people will correct me, but when Saddam Hussein first
Yannis Pappas (34:50.140)
came to power, he was, he's quite progressive.
Lex Fridman (34:54.720)
So like the, as far as I understand, the signs of an evil dictator weren't exactly there.
Lex Fridman (35:03.200)
So again, there's, I don't know if power revealed or power corrupted.
Yannis Pappas (35:07.340)
Or that could have been the initial subterfuge to kind of get everybody, you know, Hitler
Yannis Pappas (35:11.280)
also is a champion of the people.
Lex Fridman (35:13.260)
It's built some new roads.
Yannis Pappas (35:14.260)
It's with psychopaths too.
Lex Fridman (35:15.880)
And that's why it's interesting to me.
Yannis Pappas (35:17.060)
I'm not sure if power corrupts psychopaths.
Lex Fridman (35:20.460)
And now that we know that we can do these CAT scans and brain scans, we know that they're
Yannis Pappas (35:23.720)
born that way.
Lex Fridman (35:25.760)
Power definitely corrupts people who have the capacity to feel and for empathy.
Yannis Pappas (35:33.640)
Power I'm not sure.
Yannis Pappas (35:34.640)
I don't think power corrupts people who were born psychopathic with that condition or sociopaths
Yannis Pappas (35:41.340)
who had, who, you know, who were closer to psychopath and then had some traumatic life.
Yannis Pappas (35:46.680)
You know, I just think, you know, the best way to get away with whatever nefarious thing
Yannis Pappas (35:52.220)
you want to do to feel, I guess the only thing psychopaths can feel is that excitement, is
Lex Fridman (35:56.400)
to pretend to be the opposite of what you are.
Yannis Pappas (35:58.960)
That's what, that's what killers do.
Lex Fridman (36:00.720)
That's what the worst people, look at Bill Cosby.
Yannis Pappas (36:02.720)
I mean, he was, what better way to hide, you know, it's like what wokeness is now.
Lex Fridman (36:08.720)
It's like, I'm such a great person and then you're like, are you?
Yannis Pappas (36:11.880)
It's a great, the best way to hide is to pretend to be the opposite of what you are.
Lex Fridman (36:16.140)
Just like Ted Bundy.
Yannis Pappas (36:17.140)
I'm just an innocent, helpful guy.
Lex Fridman (36:18.840)
And then boom, next thing you know, you're getting your tit bit off.
Yannis Pappas (36:21.540)
That's really well said.
Lex Fridman (36:22.640)
It's actually kind of funny because I talk about love a lot.
Lex Fridman (36:25.820)
And I think the people that kind of look at me with squinty eyes, they wonder like how
Lex Fridman (36:32.180)
many bodies are in that closet, you know what I mean?
Yannis Pappas (36:35.280)
Like there's something about the duality of like, we're so skeptical as a culture.
Yannis Pappas (36:40.320)
Like if somebody is just like, seems to be kind of, sort of, I don't know, positive and
Lex Fridman (36:48.000)
all that kind of, you know, how do I put it?
Lex Fridman (36:50.960)
Just simple, simple minded in the positivity they express.
Yannis Pappas (36:55.320)
They think like, okay, there's some demons in there.
Lex Fridman (36:57.960)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (36:58.960)
Especially if you're a New Yorker, we don't trust any, the nicer you are, the more skeptical
Lex Fridman (37:01.520)
we are.
Yannis Pappas (37:02.520)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (37:03.520)
I've struggled with that down here.
Lex Fridman (37:04.520)
And they're like, nah, dude, just, I wanted to show you the best tacos, man.
Lex Fridman (37:07.480)
And I'm like, did you really, what do you want?
Yannis Pappas (37:10.040)
Because in New York, it's like, if anyone's nice to you, they want something.
Lex Fridman (37:13.240)
And that's, the pro side to that is it makes you very street smart.
Yannis Pappas (37:18.000)
The downside to that is it makes you way too cynical.
Lex Fridman (37:20.640)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (37:21.640)
I've definitely experienced that here in Texas, but people are super, super nice.
Lex Fridman (37:26.080)
And they're like, do all this cool shit for you and you wonder, what's the angle?
Lex Fridman (37:32.520)
What are we doing here?
Lex Fridman (37:33.520)
You mentioned hyenas as your favorite animal.
Lex Fridman (37:35.720)
I forgot to ask you, what the hell were you thinking?
Lex Fridman (37:39.760)
Why is a hyena is your favorite animal?
Yannis Pappas (37:41.640)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (37:42.640)
It's a fascinating animal.
Yannis Pappas (37:45.560)
Let's look at the whole animal kingdom.
Yannis Pappas (37:47.080)
Like why is it, where do you put, so you like dogs, love my favorite, your favorite is dogs,
Lex Fridman (37:52.960)
but they're kind of outside the animal kingdom because you're thinking about wolves.
Lex Fridman (37:56.680)
So the animal kingdom is in nature.
Yannis Pappas (37:59.480)
Dogs escaped nature.
Lex Fridman (38:00.960)
They kind of did.
Yannis Pappas (38:02.520)
Uh, together with humans, like in a collaborative way, exactly.
Lex Fridman (38:06.120)
So within nature, within the animal kingdom, what, who's, uh, why not lions?
Yannis Pappas (38:11.400)
Because lions are predictable.
Lex Fridman (38:14.320)
Lions are just, you know, they're regal and kind of, they bore me.
Yannis Pappas (38:16.920)
It's like the hot chick.
Lex Fridman (38:18.180)
It's like, we get it.
Yannis Pappas (38:19.640)
You were born the best.
Lex Fridman (38:21.640)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (38:22.640)
You know, I like a scrappy, by any means necessary, intelligent and cunning.
Lex Fridman (38:28.240)
But aren't they dishonest?
Yannis Pappas (38:30.280)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (38:31.280)
And that's why I like them.
Yannis Pappas (38:33.440)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (38:34.440)
They're dishonest.
Yannis Pappas (38:35.440)
They employ chicanery.
Yannis Pappas (38:36.440)
They, uh, they're, and that's just a sign of how intelligent they are and how self reliant
Yannis Pappas (38:42.360)
they are and how brutal they are.
Yannis Pappas (38:44.720)
Um, they're brutally honest in how much they lie, you know, because it's just, they're
Yannis Pappas (38:50.120)
trying to get the job done.
Lex Fridman (38:52.000)
You know, lions are just like, they're, they're too gifted.
Yannis Pappas (38:55.680)
Everyone hates the fucking, you know, if I went to school with you, I'd be like, of course,
Lex Fridman (38:59.520)
Lex knows the fucking answer.
Yannis Pappas (39:00.520)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (39:01.520)
Lex was born smarter than me.
Yannis Pappas (39:02.520)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (39:03.520)
You know, and you'd probably hate me because I was the kid always seeking attention and
Yannis Pappas (39:06.560)
making people, it's like, that's not interesting.
Lex Fridman (39:09.320)
The guy that claws his way to the top and those are hyenas.
Yannis Pappas (39:12.560)
They're also fascinating just by, uh, merely who they are.
Lex Fridman (39:16.120)
I mean, they're not related to any other animal.
Yannis Pappas (39:19.560)
They're more closely related to cats than they are dogs, even though they look like
Lex Fridman (39:23.520)
a dog.
Yannis Pappas (39:24.520)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (39:25.520)
They're, but they're very, like very tangentially related even to cats.
Lex Fridman (39:28.760)
So they're their own kind of thing, which is kind of mysterious.
Yannis Pappas (39:31.840)
I don't think they fully figured out and uh, they, the pseudo penis thing is the, is the,
Yannis Pappas (39:36.440)
I mean,
Lex Fridman (39:37.440)
Can you explain the pseudo penis?
Yannis Pappas (39:38.440)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (39:39.440)
So the, it's a matriarchal society by the way.
Lex Fridman (39:42.080)
So that's the unique in and of itself that this, we're talking about an apex predator
Lex Fridman (39:46.320)
that is a matriarchal, much like, uh, you know, the praying mantis.
Yannis Pappas (39:49.980)
It's very rare though.
Lex Fridman (39:51.380)
And they are fucking brutal and vicious and the women are bigger and they let their cubs
Yannis Pappas (39:55.920)
fight, a lot of fratricide and they do that because they're like, Hey, you're weaker.
Lex Fridman (39:59.800)
I let your brother kill you.
Lex Fridman (40:01.560)
And uh, the women have penises, the women have pseudo penises that they give birth out
Lex Fridman (40:05.760)
of and the birth is violent, but they, they roll around with just huge pieces.
Yannis Pappas (40:10.600)
They're glue guns are just fucking swinging, you know, and the women are just run the show
Lex Fridman (40:15.600)
and uh, it's just cool that they have these pseudo penises.
Yannis Pappas (40:21.800)
It's almost romantic the way you describe it.
Lex Fridman (40:23.360)
They have the strongest bite force.
Yannis Pappas (40:25.440)
They they pulverize bone.
Lex Fridman (40:26.840)
Like when they eat an animal, the animal's gone.
Yannis Pappas (40:29.480)
There's no bones.
Lex Fridman (40:30.660)
They eat everything.
Yannis Pappas (40:31.800)
They can pulverize their bite is so powerful.
Lex Fridman (40:34.480)
They pulverize bone and eat it.
Lex Fridman (40:36.720)
So if they consume an animal, it, the animal was there and then the animal's gone.
Lex Fridman (40:40.360)
There's no nothing for the vultures there to, uh, to, to, to grab.
Yannis Pappas (40:44.280)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (40:45.280)
I'm going to have to revisit the hyenas because my experience with the heinous was from, uh,
Yannis Pappas (40:50.240)
first of all, history is your show, uh, has rebranded them for me, but, uh, the lion king,
Yannis Pappas (40:57.520)
which is, uh, a cartoon, I guess, that, uh, I get emotional at every time I, I hope that
Yannis Pappas (41:05.200)
probably a father issues, every guy probably just, you just have feelings.
Lex Fridman (41:09.640)
You're a good guy.
Yannis Pappas (41:10.640)
I mean, everyone has feelings.
Lex Fridman (41:11.640)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (41:12.640)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (41:13.640)
That one gets everybody.
Yannis Pappas (41:14.640)
I don't know.
Yannis Pappas (41:15.640)
I get, I get every father son movie, like blow with Johnny Depp, uh, and, uh, really
Yannis Pappas (41:20.120)
Yoda.
Lex Fridman (41:21.120)
Damn.
Yannis Pappas (41:22.120)
That's a good movie.
Lex Fridman (41:23.120)
And whenever there's like, um, like the disappointment in the father that his son has become like
Yannis Pappas (41:29.560)
this incredibly successful drug lord that then ends up with nothing in, in, in prison,
Yannis Pappas (41:36.040)
uh, just the sadness of them communicating through letters, man, it gets me every time,
Yannis Pappas (41:41.120)
but, but, you know, uh, there, the hyenas are not presented that well in that, um,
Yannis Pappas (41:47.120)
No, they're usually portrayed as like, uh, it's, it's really, it's, it's, it's, it's
Yannis Pappas (41:50.040)
really sad that they're portrayed that way as lions.
Lex Fridman (41:53.400)
Like lions aren't dicks.
Yannis Pappas (41:55.120)
Lions are dicks.
Lex Fridman (41:56.120)
They, the, the, the, the alpha lions will kill the cubs of another rival.
Yannis Pappas (42:00.900)
They do all types of dick shit.
Lex Fridman (42:02.560)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (42:03.560)
And, um, yeah, it's, uh, the hyenas are more interesting.
Yannis Pappas (42:06.120)
Like they'll just roll in like a hyena will like, like you said, the lie, you know, cause
Yannis Pappas (42:10.440)
when you watch the Serengeti, you know, animals will hang out with each other.
Lex Fridman (42:13.880)
They're like by water.
Lex Fridman (42:15.320)
So one hyena will just kind of roll in and pretend like it's not hungry and then bang.
Lex Fridman (42:20.680)
They'll use any means necessary to take an animal down.
Yannis Pappas (42:23.840)
Like lions will just use brute strength.
Yannis Pappas (42:26.760)
Hyenas use cunning and you can even go on the internet and find, uh, memes of this where
Yannis Pappas (42:31.080)
hyenas will grab the big animal by the balls and just like, we'll sneak up behind it and
Lex Fridman (42:35.820)
bite its balls.
Lex Fridman (42:37.000)
And you'll watch an animal 10 size, 10 times the size of the hyena just slowly go down.
Lex Fridman (42:42.040)
It's brutal, but it's fucking hilarious.
Lex Fridman (42:44.760)
So I, I think that's, uh, I don't know if you follow the channel, um, nature's metal
Lex Fridman (42:51.960)
that, that one weighs heavy on me.
Yannis Pappas (42:56.040)
Um, with the hyenas on the balls, I it's tough to, to intellectualize it.
Yannis Pappas (43:03.740)
It's tough to think that the entirety of life on earth has this history of, uh, predators
Yannis Pappas (43:11.000)
being violent, just like just the murder that we come from.
Lex Fridman (43:17.240)
It's crazy.
Yannis Pappas (43:18.240)
I, it, uh, just like when we're talking about meditating on death, I actually, I keep following
Lex Fridman (43:23.860)
and unfollowing that Instagram channel because like sometimes it's too much.
Yannis Pappas (43:28.040)
Like I can't, I can't continue with the day after like seeing the brutality, the honest
Lex Fridman (43:32.880)
brutality of that.
Yannis Pappas (43:34.880)
I don't know how to make sense of it.
Yannis Pappas (43:36.580)
It's important to acknowledge, I think, cause that it's real and we do come from that.
Yannis Pappas (43:40.200)
We are, we evolve from that.
Lex Fridman (43:42.800)
It's important.
Yannis Pappas (43:43.800)
We still do that.
Lex Fridman (43:44.800)
We're just hidden from it.
Yannis Pappas (43:45.800)
You know, when you go to the supermarket and get your slab of meat, you know, you're so
Lex Fridman (43:48.960)
disconnected from where that meat came from.
Yannis Pappas (43:51.760)
It came from that and often that's uglier to watch than because there's some honesty,
Yannis Pappas (43:57.460)
you know, the, the, the, the nature channels only show, uh, that's why we have so much
Yannis Pappas (44:02.020)
sympathy with the prey.
Lex Fridman (44:03.380)
And this is where I think the same thing with mafia movies, they don't show what the mafia
Yannis Pappas (44:06.380)
really does.
Lex Fridman (44:07.380)
They glorify the good parts.
Yannis Pappas (44:08.420)
That's why I like state of grace cause it's really just shaking down old people and fucking
Lex Fridman (44:11.720)
being dicks.
Yannis Pappas (44:12.720)
It's not driving nice cars and being like, you know, so, and, and animal channels do
Lex Fridman (44:16.400)
the same thing.
Yannis Pappas (44:17.400)
They only show when the cheetah gets it because that's, that's the exciting part.
Lex Fridman (44:22.160)
But what most people don't know is that those predators strike out almost always a majority
Yannis Pappas (44:27.840)
of the time, the prey wins.
Lex Fridman (44:30.000)
And so if you saw that and put it in context, you might not hate it as much when the predator
Yannis Pappas (44:35.400)
actually gets the little fawn or whatever, because it's so many fawns got away.
Lex Fridman (44:39.560)
It's so hard to capture your prey.
Lex Fridman (44:42.000)
And you know, we, we don't have the, the, the, they no, no documentary is going to sit
Lex Fridman (44:46.680)
around and show you the 99 times the cheetah didn't catch.
Yannis Pappas (44:51.720)
Thank you for this perspective.
Lex Fridman (44:52.720)
It's murder is difficult.
Lex Fridman (44:54.000)
So like this is the, they never talk about for people who murder how difficult that is
Yannis Pappas (44:59.920)
like to trap somebody, to convince them to come back to your place, give it some respect,
Yannis Pappas (45:05.000)
put some respect on Ted Bundy's name.
Lex Fridman (45:06.560)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (45:07.560)
It's not easy to convince somebody to get in your Volkswagen Beagle and, and the cleanup.
Lex Fridman (45:11.500)
And then you have to kind of plan ahead because you want to keep doing the murder, mass murder.
Yannis Pappas (45:15.280)
You gotta learn how to saw them up, put them in duffel bags, bury, you gotta learn to dig,
Lex Fridman (45:19.240)
you gotta learn how to hide.
Yannis Pappas (45:20.240)
You gotta learn to lie.
Lex Fridman (45:21.240)
I mean, it's a lot that goes into it that we need to put a little respect on.
Yannis Pappas (45:25.360)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (45:26.360)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (45:27.360)
And you have to figure out which tools work the best for the sawing and all those kinds
Lex Fridman (45:29.520)
of things.
Yannis Pappas (45:30.520)
Um, um, so thank you for the perspective.
Lex Fridman (45:33.400)
That's what I was hoping we would bring to this table.
Lex Fridman (45:38.400)
So you, um, uh, you got a little bit Greek in you.
Yannis Pappas (45:42.640)
Uh, one of the episodes on, on a history hyenas, you talked about the battle of Crete where
Yannis Pappas (45:50.880)
the Greeks, your people in, uh, uh, in 19, I guess 41 and the early stages of the world
Lex Fridman (45:58.800)
war II, there's one of the most epic battles of the war.
Yannis Pappas (46:02.640)
Uh, in fact, in 1941 in a speech made at the Reichstag, Hitler paid tribute to the bravery
Yannis Pappas (46:09.560)
of the Greek saying, it must be said, uh, for the sake of historical truth that amongst
Yannis Pappas (46:15.880)
all our opponents, only the Greeks fought with the endless courage and defiance of death.
Lex Fridman (46:22.880)
So okay.
Lex Fridman (46:23.880)
What do you make of this battle?
Lex Fridman (46:24.880)
What do you make of the spirit of the Greek people?
Yannis Pappas (46:27.220)
This is one of the closest things to me because my mother was actually on the island of Crete
Lex Fridman (46:33.080)
during this, the first aerial invasion in history.
Yannis Pappas (46:35.920)
A lot of people don't know that.
Lex Fridman (46:37.320)
So this is a very significant battle.
Yannis Pappas (46:39.400)
Um, first time there was an invasion from the sky, um, and, uh, my mother was a little
Lex Fridman (46:44.800)
girl and she lived through four years of a Nazi occupation there.
Lex Fridman (46:48.340)
So my mother was a human rights lawyer and everything, but she just always hated Germans.
Lex Fridman (46:51.880)
It's just what it is.
Yannis Pappas (46:53.240)
She hated Germans and she never got over it.
Lex Fridman (46:55.400)
So the most progressive, open minded woman just could not get over this.
Yannis Pappas (46:59.120)
Um, it's a monumental battle that a lot of historians in retrospect have now looked back
Yannis Pappas (47:04.440)
on and said, because the Nazis, first off, you got to take it back to when Hitler instructed
Yannis Pappas (47:10.320)
Mussolini.
Lex Fridman (47:11.320)
Cause let's be honest, Mussolini was Hitler's bitch.
Lex Fridman (47:12.320)
You know what I mean?
Yannis Pappas (47:13.320)
It was like, if it, well, you know, if it was fantasy island, Hitler was the fucking
Lex Fridman (47:17.480)
and the, and Mussolini was boss, the plane.
Yannis Pappas (47:19.720)
Mussolini ever say no to Hitler or even maybe it's always like, yes, yes, yes, we will do
Yannis Pappas (47:25.260)
it.
Lex Fridman (47:26.260)
And, uh, it's like, yeah, it takes, you have to take Greece.
Lex Fridman (47:29.320)
And so, um, yeah, so Italy being much bigger than Greece, Greece is a tiny country, nine,
Lex Fridman (47:37.160)
10 million.
Lex Fridman (47:38.160)
So Italy invaded Greece, um, you know, um, and Aukey day's a big, it's a big holiday
Lex Fridman (47:45.080)
for Greeks.
Lex Fridman (47:46.080)
And this speaks to the spirit Greeks in fight until we have a common enemy and then we unite,
Yannis Pappas (47:52.960)
you see it throughout history, Sparta and Athens, you see it in Greek families where
Yannis Pappas (47:58.440)
the brothers will fight.
Lex Fridman (47:59.440)
But then as soon as we have a common enemy, we unite and maybe it's an overactive brain.
Yannis Pappas (48:03.940)
We think too much, our traditions, philosophy, and we overthink things and we fight with
Lex Fridman (48:07.720)
each other and take things personally, we're ultra passionate.
Lex Fridman (48:10.880)
But when Italy said, Hey, we're going to move troops through, you know, uh, a Greek said
Yannis Pappas (48:17.040)
Aukey, which means no, and that was, um, and then Italy attacked and, uh, we beat the shit
Yannis Pappas (48:23.320)
out of them.
Lex Fridman (48:24.320)
A much bigger country, much, uh, more well equipped country.
Yannis Pappas (48:28.600)
Greece beat the shit of them, kicked them back into Albania, actually not only repelled
Lex Fridman (48:32.680)
them, actually like conquered some ground in Albania, pushed them back.
Lex Fridman (48:36.520)
And then Hitler was like, fuck, you know, I was planning my March to Russia, uh, but
Yannis Pappas (48:41.400)
I have to go down because he basically said to Mussolini, like, you know, you're basically
Yannis Pappas (48:45.120)
bitch slapped.
Lex Fridman (48:46.120)
I'm like, I got to do this myself because you're such a fucking bitch.
Lex Fridman (48:49.400)
So then the Nazis invaded Greece.
Lex Fridman (48:51.160)
Obviously they took the mainland with fight and shot out.
Yannis Pappas (48:54.080)
The Greeks never give credit to the British and New Zealand and Australian troops that
Lex Fridman (48:57.200)
were there.
Yannis Pappas (48:58.200)
You know, they were a large part of this, the majority of it, but the Greeks fight dude,
Lex Fridman (49:03.040)
civilians.
Yannis Pappas (49:04.040)
I mean, they fought, you know, the Ottomans were there 400 years.
Lex Fridman (49:07.680)
You go to Greece.
Yannis Pappas (49:08.680)
Now there's no evidence.
Lex Fridman (49:09.680)
There's virtually no evidence of them ever being there.
Yannis Pappas (49:13.640)
That's the Greek spirit.
Lex Fridman (49:14.800)
Kick them out and we kicked out hummus too.
Lex Fridman (49:17.320)
So it's like their culture's gone.
Lex Fridman (49:18.960)
You're gone.
Yannis Pappas (49:19.960)
Cause Greeks are, uh, it's philoptimo.
Lex Fridman (49:21.960)
It's called philoptimo.
Lex Fridman (49:22.960)
And it's a real thing.
Lex Fridman (49:23.960)
Philoptimo is a, it's very little translate.
Yannis Pappas (49:26.440)
You can't translate it, but it's kind of like honor, loyalty, friendship, uh, altruism.
Yannis Pappas (49:33.000)
It's a, it's, you can't define it, but Greeks know it and we're taught it from our, from
Yannis Pappas (49:36.520)
our, uh, families.
Lex Fridman (49:38.700)
It's a vibe, man.
Yannis Pappas (49:39.700)
It's a Greek cultural thing and we're an old culture and philoptimo is what it's called
Lex Fridman (49:43.760)
philoptimo.
Lex Fridman (49:44.920)
And it's, um, it's love, it's passion and it comes out and it comes out.
Lex Fridman (49:50.440)
And so, um, so Hitler had to postpone his invasion of, um, of, uh, Russia went down
Yannis Pappas (49:57.300)
the island of Crete took 10 days to conquer.
Yannis Pappas (50:01.060)
It's an island to put that in perspective, the country of France fell in three or four
Yannis Pappas (50:07.200)
days.
Lex Fridman (50:08.200)
I can't even remember cause they fucking just rolled over.
Lex Fridman (50:09.340)
So what is it?
Lex Fridman (50:10.340)
What does a couple of hours matter when you're that much of a fucking pussy?
Yannis Pappas (50:13.400)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (50:14.400)
What is a couple out in 12 hour fucking three or four days, the island of Crete took the
Yannis Pappas (50:19.480)
Germans 10 days to conquer.
Lex Fridman (50:22.300)
And because of that, and because of the Greek resistance, Hitler had to postpone his invasion
Yannis Pappas (50:28.100)
of Russia to winter.
Lex Fridman (50:29.760)
And of course that was, you know, that was his downfall just as it was Napoleon's and
Yannis Pappas (50:34.360)
a never dude, never try to invade Russia.
Lex Fridman (50:37.060)
They got millions of people to throw at death.
Yannis Pappas (50:39.020)
Every time you read about Russians in history books, like, and a million died.
Yannis Pappas (50:42.200)
I mean, it's like, you just guys throw millions of people at the problem and don't fuck with
Yannis Pappas (50:46.300)
that Russian winter and don't fuck with Russian people, dude, they're tough.
Yannis Pappas (50:50.100)
People in New York know that you don't go to fucking sheep set bay and start talking
Yannis Pappas (50:53.500)
shit.
Lex Fridman (50:54.500)
You'll end up in a fucking car trunk and they'll brutally murder you.
Yannis Pappas (50:56.620)
I do not fuck with Russians.
Lex Fridman (50:58.620)
Amen.
Lex Fridman (50:59.620)
And then there's a, I mean, there's a lot of people, a lot of historians argue that
Yannis Pappas (51:03.180)
that battle was because of the Russian winter because of delaying the Russian invasion,
Lex Fridman (51:07.740)
but also psychologically delaying the invasion.
Yannis Pappas (51:10.380)
It was the first time, I think it was the first time the Germans failed, not, or didn't
Yannis Pappas (51:17.020)
succeed like they wanted to early in the war, which is a little like psychologically the
Lex Fridman (51:23.120)
impact of that I think is immeasurable.
Lex Fridman (51:26.700)
And also a lot of people argue from a military strategy perspective that the, just like you
Yannis Pappas (51:33.220)
said, it was an aerial attack and that Hitler didn't think that the, that kind of attack
Yannis Pappas (51:39.800)
would then be useful for the rest of the war.
Lex Fridman (51:42.300)
So that's, that's a really part where, whereas it might've been very useful.
Lex Fridman (51:47.380)
So it's a, it's really interesting how these little battles can steer the directions of
Lex Fridman (51:51.700)
war.
Yannis Pappas (51:52.700)
Of course, me growing up in the Soviet Union, we didn't hear much about this battle.
Lex Fridman (51:57.780)
Just like you said, millions of Soviets died.
Yannis Pappas (52:00.020)
All those people in history that you read about dying, those are all civilians, but
Yannis Pappas (52:03.900)
I mean, not all, but a very large number of them are civilians and their stories, obviously
Yannis Pappas (52:08.860)
that's the rooted, the literature, the poetry, the music, just the way people talk, the way
Lex Fridman (52:15.060)
they drink vodka, the way they love, the way they hate, the way they fear.
Yannis Pappas (52:20.360)
That's all like rooted in World War II and World War I.
Lex Fridman (52:24.260)
And so, but we never kind of think about Europe and we certainly, growing up, didn't think
Yannis Pappas (52:32.020)
about their role in the United States.
Yannis Pappas (52:34.220)
All this, there's plenty of stories of heroism in the Soviet Union, enough to, enough for
Yannis Pappas (52:39.220)
many lifetimes.
Yannis Pappas (52:40.220)
So, but it was fascinating to read from a Greek perspective, cause I, you know, I don't
Yannis Pappas (52:45.580)
have many Greek friends, I hope you didn't change that.
Lex Fridman (52:50.860)
This is the beginning of a love affair of your people.
Yannis Pappas (52:54.540)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (52:55.540)
But likewise, the Americans don't hear about the Soviet contribution to the end of World
Yannis Pappas (52:59.620)
War II because obviously we became, you know, enemies after that because of the two systems.
Lex Fridman (53:04.820)
But yeah, without the Russians, World War II wouldn't have been won either.
Yannis Pappas (53:08.500)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (53:09.500)
The stories are written by the victors.
Yannis Pappas (53:10.500)
That's really interesting.
Lex Fridman (53:11.500)
I, just looking at the, at history, you wonder what's missing.
Yannis Pappas (53:16.420)
I'll tell you what's missing that I know for a fact, cause my dad told, my dad told me
Lex Fridman (53:21.020)
combat's hell and he would tell me the reality of what it's really like.
Yannis Pappas (53:23.740)
Guys pissing themselves, calling for their mother, the fog of war, obviously, fratricide
Lex Fridman (53:28.020)
happens all the time.
Yannis Pappas (53:29.020)
It's pandemonium.
Yannis Pappas (53:30.020)
I mean, there's skill involved, but I mean, there's no, like it's a lot of it is just
Yannis Pappas (53:33.900)
luck.
Yannis Pappas (53:34.900)
My dad said, he, my dad won three, he got, you know, medals, braille, purple hearts,
Yannis Pappas (53:39.020)
all that shit.
Lex Fridman (53:40.020)
And he said, the reason was, is cause you can't, he always said, this is another thing.
Yannis Pappas (53:42.300)
He told me, you can't pin a medal on a dead guy.
Lex Fridman (53:44.940)
So it's like, those are the guys who deserve it, but you can't pin a medal.
Yannis Pappas (53:47.940)
You can't do the pomp and, and I'll tell you one thing is that it is written by the victors
Lex Fridman (53:55.020)
and all these leaders, they say we're in the front.
Yannis Pappas (53:57.500)
We're not in the front.
Lex Fridman (53:58.900)
We're not in the front.
Yannis Pappas (53:59.900)
Whenever the history books say he led his troops into battle.
Lex Fridman (54:02.260)
It's like, did he really, did he, so then how did he live?
Yannis Pappas (54:06.100)
Cause they put like kids in the front, you know, it's like nobody limps back from the
Yannis Pappas (54:09.380)
front with like a injury, you know, that's, that's army PR, you know, whenever you read,
Yannis Pappas (54:15.980)
you know, 27 soldiers died, 14 were injured.
Lex Fridman (54:20.140)
The word injured is PR.
Yannis Pappas (54:21.940)
That's like injured.
Lex Fridman (54:22.940)
Was he, did he sprain his ankle?
Yannis Pappas (54:25.100)
Did he need, did he get carried off the court or, you know, he was maimed.
Yannis Pappas (54:28.860)
I mean, he was like, his leg was blown off, you know, it's like, so, uh, I think that,
Yannis Pappas (54:34.300)
you know, Alexander the Great was just kind of in the back on his horse and just kind
Lex Fridman (54:37.180)
of, he had his eunuch blow him a few times and he was like, is it bad up there?
Lex Fridman (54:40.940)
And then like after that he was like, okay, my scribe, give me my scribe.
Lex Fridman (54:43.940)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (54:44.940)
When you write this down, can you put me in the front?
Lex Fridman (54:46.180)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (54:47.180)
And I was just making me a big hero and I was in there and then he, you know, he just
Yannis Pappas (54:50.660)
blew his, you know, he had sex with his eunuch and rode off into the sunset because there's
Yannis Pappas (54:54.460)
just no way you survive in the front, especially warfare back then.
Lex Fridman (54:57.220)
I mean, it's like brutal.
Yannis Pappas (54:59.140)
Then again, you have like, uh, Genghis Khan.
Lex Fridman (55:02.820)
The sense I got that he was a little bit up on the front, at least the first.
Yannis Pappas (55:07.340)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (55:08.340)
Or is that also, is he a little bit Alexander the Great?
Yannis Pappas (55:09.340)
Give me my scribe.
Lex Fridman (55:10.340)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (55:11.340)
It's all lore.
Lex Fridman (55:12.340)
I mean, you ever play the game of telephone?
Yannis Pappas (55:13.880)
You know, it's like, you know, there's no video cameras back then.
Lex Fridman (55:16.900)
So shit just get, turns into myth, you know, and, uh, there's no way he was in the front.
Yannis Pappas (55:21.700)
There's no way he wouldn't have lived.
Yannis Pappas (55:23.660)
You know, he was probably good on horseback cause those, those dudes were good on horseback.
Lex Fridman (55:28.540)
But it was like game of Thrones back then.
Yannis Pappas (55:30.220)
You had all these different people and they kind of, yeah, the, the, the Mongols were
Yannis Pappas (55:33.780)
wild dude.
Yannis Pappas (55:34.780)
They are actually said like, um, they started like they were more adaptable to the horse
Yannis Pappas (55:39.020)
because they were so good on horseback that kids started to be born like kind of bow legged
Lex Fridman (55:43.340)
like to fit the horse.
Yannis Pappas (55:44.500)
It's wild.
Lex Fridman (55:45.500)
And they would stretch their heads and shit like that.
Yannis Pappas (55:47.620)
They wrap them and stretch their heads.
Lex Fridman (55:49.020)
So they find like Mongol skulls and they look like cone heads and they were brutal and vicious
Lex Fridman (55:56.100)
and they would maraud and rape and all the fun stuff that, you know, when, you know,
Yannis Pappas (56:00.740)
when you visit other places back then, there's no tchotchke stops and souvenir shops.
Lex Fridman (56:04.300)
What you do is you take women and those are the tokens, you know, you burn a few huts
Lex Fridman (56:08.580)
different.
Yannis Pappas (56:10.340)
Tourism was different back then.
Lex Fridman (56:11.980)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (56:12.980)
That's another difficult thing.
Lex Fridman (56:15.940)
So we're talking about nature and predators to think about the long stretch of history
Yannis Pappas (56:21.060)
where we're just murder and we made so much progress, I guess, in the past couple of centuries.
Lex Fridman (56:28.780)
The United States is a shining example of that.
Lex Fridman (56:31.380)
But do you think also that it's that effect that we were, a lot of good things had to
Lex Fridman (56:35.740)
happen too or else we wouldn't be here.
Lex Fridman (56:37.980)
So do we just focus, isn't it like a car crash effect that like we're, you know, the rubber
Yannis Pappas (56:42.780)
neck that everyone pulls over to see a car crash, are we just only focusing on the negative
Lex Fridman (56:46.300)
things of history because they're just more exciting to us?
Yannis Pappas (56:48.660)
Like it's just not, it's boring to be like, yeah, and then there was a bunch of villagers
Lex Fridman (56:51.420)
and they ate every day and danced and loved.
Lex Fridman (56:55.020)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (56:56.020)
I wonder, I wonder how different those people were, you know, like they might've had the
Yannis Pappas (57:01.740)
same exact loves and fears and like they perhaps had the same kind of brilliant ideas in their
Yannis Pappas (57:09.580)
head, if not more brilliant.
Lex Fridman (57:11.220)
And we kind of think about like this moment in history is like the most special moment.
Yannis Pappas (57:16.300)
Like we're doing the coolest shit that we're doing the most amazing building and most amazing
Lex Fridman (57:20.420)
things.
Lex Fridman (57:21.420)
But maybe they were building amazing things in their different way with like less technological,
Lex Fridman (57:25.620)
but in the space of ideas, in the space of just all the different, the camaraderie and
Yannis Pappas (57:30.260)
the space of like concepts, mathematics, all those kinds of things.
Lex Fridman (57:35.260)
Yeah.
Yannis Pappas (57:36.260)
I mean, Greece, you look at the architecture, it still stands up.
Yannis Pappas (57:37.940)
I mean, all the government, but it's still arguably, I mean, as far as objective beauty,
Yannis Pappas (57:42.780)
it's hard to argue that Greco Roman, it's just something about it with the, with the
Lex Fridman (57:47.060)
columns.
Yannis Pappas (57:48.060)
It's just, it's powerful.
Lex Fridman (57:50.420)
It's I don't know, even Ayn Rand would probably appreciate it.
Yannis Pappas (57:54.340)
She doesn't, no, no, no.
Lex Fridman (57:59.220)
So in your history, hyenas that unfortunately has come to an end, we're talking about empires
Yannis Pappas (58:04.380)
coming to an end, all empires fall.
Lex Fridman (58:08.340)
That one, it may rise again.
Yannis Pappas (58:11.620)
Empires might rise again.
Lex Fridman (58:12.620)
Who knows?
Lex Fridman (58:13.620)
Who knows?
Yannis Pappas (58:14.620)
I, I'm obviously a fan, so I hope it does rise again, but you've seemed to develop your
Yannis Pappas (58:20.580)
own language.
Lex Fridman (58:22.500)
Can you, you know, it's what it is.
Lex Fridman (58:26.580)
What is, what is that?
Lex Fridman (58:28.500)
What the hell, is this some kind of medical condition or can you, can you explain like
Yannis Pappas (58:34.220)
the linguistic essentials that catch us up to the linguistic essentials that people need
Lex Fridman (58:39.900)
to know to understand the way you speak?
Yannis Pappas (58:43.060)
You know, Leopold and Loeb, you know the story of those two, they murdered that kid and they
Lex Fridman (58:47.900)
had this weird relationship.
Yannis Pappas (58:48.900)
Anyway, it's an interesting thing to Google, Leopold and Loeb, these two guys who ended
Yannis Pappas (58:53.760)
up murdering a kid because they developed their own language with each other and this
Yannis Pappas (58:57.380)
own reality and this weird thing and they wanted to know what it's like to murder a
Lex Fridman (59:00.860)
kid and they murder a kid.
Yannis Pappas (59:01.860)
It's a famous story in American lore and history or whatever, famous case.
Lex Fridman (59:07.340)
But this phenomenon, yeah, me and Chris got together.
Yannis Pappas (59:10.460)
It wasn't as dark as Leopold and Loeb, we didn't murder a kid, but we murdered a podcast.
Lex Fridman (59:15.580)
Or at least stabbed it a few times.
Yannis Pappas (59:18.980)
Yeah, it's, it was something in the organic chemistry of me and Chris that I think we'll
Yannis Pappas (59:24.360)
both end up appreciating even probably more than we do now that it's mysterious.
Yannis Pappas (59:31.940)
I got to be honest with you, it's, it was a thing that it wasn't conscious, wasn't intentional.
Lex Fridman (59:39.900)
It was something that happened in the music of our energies that just went.
Yannis Pappas (59:45.860)
Like when you hear someone sing or when a jazz band hits a rhythm or even when I'm on
Lex Fridman (59:50.020)
stage and I just catch a rhythm, it's like, dude, I didn't make a choice there.
Yannis Pappas (59:54.180)
I don't know what that is.
Yannis Pappas (59:55.180)
I don't know how to explain it, but it comes from somewhere else and I don't know what
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