Simon Sinek: Leadership, Hard Work, Optimism and the Infinite Game
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🎙️ 完整对话（884 条）
Lex Fridman (00:00.000)
The following is a conversation with Simon Sinek,
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author of several books, including Start With Why,
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Leaders Eat Last, and his latest, The Infinite Game.
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He's one of the best communicators
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of what it takes to be a good leader,
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to inspire, and to build businesses
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that solve big, difficult challenges.
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This is the Artificial Intelligence Podcast.
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If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube,
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review it with five stars on Apple Podcast,
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support it on Patreon, or simply connect with me on Twitter,
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at Lex Friedman, spelled F R I D M A N.
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As usual, I'll do one or two minutes of ads now,
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and never any ads in the middle
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that can break the flow of the conversation.
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I hope that works for you,
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and doesn't hurt the listening experience.
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Quick summary of the ads.
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Since Cash App allows you to buy Bitcoin,
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let me mention that cryptocurrency,
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in the context of the history of money, is fascinating.
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I recommend Ascent of Money as a great book on this history.
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Debits and credits on Ledger started around 30,000 years ago.
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The US dollar created over 200 years ago,
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and Bitcoin, the first decentralized cryptocurrency,
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released just over 10 years ago.
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So given that history, cryptocurrency's still very much
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in its early days of development,
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but it's still aiming to, and just might,
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redefine the nature of money.
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So again, if you get Cash App from the App Store
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and STEM education for young people around the world.
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This show is sponsored by Masterclass.
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Sign up at Masterclass.com slash Lex to get a discount
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and to support this podcast.
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When I first heard about Masterclass,
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I honestly thought it was too good to be true.
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For $180 a year, you get an all access pass
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to watch courses from experts at the top of their field.
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To list some of my favorites,
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Chris Hatfield on Space Exploration,
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Neil deGrasse Tyson on Scientific Thinking
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and Communication, Will Wright, the creator of SimCity,
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and Sims on Game Design.
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I love that game.
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Jane Goodall on Conservation, Carlos Santana,
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one of my favorite guitarists on guitar,
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Gary Kasparov on Chess, obviously I'm Russian,
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I love Gary, Daniel Negrano on Poker,
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one of my favorite poker players,
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also Phil Ivey gives a course as well,
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and many, many more.
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Chris Hatfield explaining how rockets work
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and the experience of being launched into space alone
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is worth the money.
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By way of advice, for me, the key is not to be overwhelmed
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by the abundance of choice.
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Pick three courses you want to complete,
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watch each all the way through from start to finish,
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it's not that long, but it's an experience
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that will stick with you for a long time, I promise.
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It's easily worth the money,
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you can watch it on basically any device.
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Once again, sign up at masterclass.com slash Lex
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to get a discount and to support this podcast.
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And now, here's my conversation with Simon Sinek.
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In the Infinite Game, your most recent book,
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you describe the finite game and the infinite game,
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so from my perspective of artificial intelligence
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and game theory in general, I'm a huge fan of finite games
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from the broad philosophical sense,
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it's something that in the robotics,
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artificial intelligence space, we know how to deal with,
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and then you describe the infinite game,
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which has no exact static rules,
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has no well defined static objective,
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the players are known, unknown, they change,
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there's the dynamic element,
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so this is something that applies to business, politics,
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life itself, so can you try to articulate
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the objective function here of the infinite game,
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or in the cliche, broad philosophical sense,
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what is the meaning of life?
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Go for the, start with a softball.
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Yep, easy question first.
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So James Kars was the philosopher
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who originally articulated this concept
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of finite and infinite games,
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and when I learned about it,
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it really challenged my view of how the world works, right?
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Because I think we all think about winning
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and being the best and being number one,
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but if you think about it,
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only in a finite game can that exist,
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a game that has fixed rules, agreed upon objectives,
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and known players, like football or baseball,
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there's always a beginning, middle, and end,
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and if there's a winner, there has to be a loser.
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Infinite games, as Kars describes them,
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as you said, have known and unknown players,
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which means anyone can join,
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it has changeable rules,
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which means you can play however you want,
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and the objective is to perpetuate the game,
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to stay in the game as long as possible.
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In other words, there's no such thing
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as being number one or winning
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in a game that has no finish line.
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And what I learned is that when we try to win
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in a game that has no finish line,
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we try to be number, we try to be the best
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in a game that has no agreed upon objectives
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or agreed upon metrics or timeframes,
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there's a few consistent and predictable outcomes,
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the decline of trust, the decline of cooperation,
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the decline of innovation.
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And I find this fascinating because so many of the ways
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that we run most organizations is with a finite mindset.
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So trying to reduce the beautiful complex thing
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that is life or whatever, politics or business,
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into something very narrow,
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and in that process, the reductionist process,
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you lose something fundamental
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that makes the whole thing work in the long term.
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So returning, not gonna let you off the hook easy,
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what is the meaning of life?
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So what is the objective function
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that is worthwhile to pursue?
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Well, if you think about our tombstones, right?
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They have the date we were born and the date we died,
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but really it's what we do with the gap in between.
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There's a poem called The Dash.
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You know, it's the dash that matters.
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It's what we do between the time we're born
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and the time we die that gives our life meaning.
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And if we live our lives with a finite mindset,
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which means to accumulate more power or money
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than anybody else, to outdo everyone else,
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to be number one, to be the best,
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we don't take any of us with us.
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We don't take any of it with us.
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We just die.
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The people who get remembered the way we wanna be remembered
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is what kind of people we were, right?
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Devoted mother, loving father,
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what kind of person we were to other people.
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Jack Welch just died recently,
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and the Washington Post,
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when it wrote the headline for his obit,
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it wrote, he pleased Wall Street and distressed employees.
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And that's his legacy.
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A finite player who is obsessed with winning,
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who leaves behind a legacy of short term gains for a few
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and distress for many.
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That's his legacy.
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And every single one of us gets the choice
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of the kind of legacy we wanna have.
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Do we wanna be remembered for our contributions
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or our detractions?
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To live with a finite mindset,
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to live a career with a finite mindset,
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to be number one, be the best, be the most famous,
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you live a life like Jack Welch, you know?
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To live a life of service, to see those around us rise,
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to contribute to our communities, to our organizations,
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to leave them in better shape than we found them,
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that's the kind of legacy most of us would like to have.
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So day to day, when you think about
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what is the fundamental goals, dreams,
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motivations of an infinite game,
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of seeing your life, your career as an infinite game,
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what does that look like?
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I mean, I guess I'm sort of trying to stick
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on this personal ego, personal drive,
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the thing that the fire, the reason we wanna wake up
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in the morning and the reason we can't go to bed
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because we're so excited, what is that?
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So for me, it's about having a just cause.
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It's about a vision that's bigger than me,
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that my work gets to contribute
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to something larger than myself, you know?
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That's what drives me every day.
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I wake up every morning with a vision of a world
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that does not yet exist, a world in which the vast majority
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of people wake up every single morning inspired,
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feel safe at work and return home fulfilled
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at the end of the day.
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It is not the world we live in.
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And so that we still have work to do
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is the thing that drives me.
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You know, I know what my underlying values are.
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You know, I wake up to inspire people
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to do the things that inspire them.
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And these are the things that, these are the things that I,
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these are my go tos, my touch points
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that inspire me to keep working.
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You know, I think of a career like an iceberg.
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You know, if you have a vision for something,
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you're the only one who can see the iceberg
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underneath the ocean.
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But if you start working at it, a little bit shows up.
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And now a few other people can see what you imagine,
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be like, oh, right, yeah, no,
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I wanna help build that as well.
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And if you have a lot of success,
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then you have a lot of iceberg
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and people can see this huge iceberg
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and they say, you've accomplished so much.
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But what I see is all the work still yet to be done.
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You know, I still see the huge iceberg underneath the ocean.
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And so the growth, you talk about momentum.
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So the incremental revealing of the iceberg
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is what drives you.
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Well, it necessarily is incremental.
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What drives me is that, is the realization,
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is realizing the iceberg, bringing more of the iceberg
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from the unknown to the known,
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bringing more of the vision from the imagination to reality.
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And you have this fundamental vision of optimism.
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You call yourself an optimist.
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I mean, in this world, I have a sort of,
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I see myself a little bit as the main character
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from The Idiot by Dostoevsky,
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who is also kind of seen by society as a fool
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because he was optimistic.
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So one, can you maybe articulate
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where that sense of optimism comes from?
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And maybe also try to articulate your vision of the future
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where people are inspired, where optimism drives us.
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It's easy to forget that when you look at social media
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and so on, where the word toxicity and negativity
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can often get more likes,
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that optimism has a sort of a beauty to it.
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And I do hope it's out there.
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So can you try to articulate that vision?
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Yeah, so I mean, for me, optimism and being an optimist
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is just seeing the silver lining in every cloud.
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Even in tragedy, it brings people together.
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And the question is, can we see that?
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Can you see the beauty that is in everything?
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And I don't think optimism is foolishness.
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I don't think optimism is blindness,
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though it probably involves some naivete,
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the belief that things will get better,
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the belief that we tend towards the good,
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even in times of struggle or bad.
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You can't sustain war, but you can sustain peace.
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I think things that are stable are more sustainable,
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things that are optimistic are more sustainable
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than things that are chaotic.
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So you see people as fundamentally good.
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I mean, some people may disagree
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that you can't sustain peace, you can't sustain war.
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I mean, I think war is costly.
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It involves life and money,
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and peace does not involve those things.
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It requires work.
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I'm not saying it doesn't require work,
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but it doesn't drain resources,
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I think the same way that war does.
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The people that would say that we will always have war,
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and I just talked to the historian of Stalin,
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would say that conflict and the desire for power
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and conflict is central to human nature.
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I concur.
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But something in your words also,
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perhaps it's the naive aspect that I also share,
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is that you have an optimism
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that people are fundamentally good.
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I'm an idealist, and I think idealism is good.
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I'm not a fool to believe that the ideals
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that I imagine can come true.
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Of course, there'll never be world peace,
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but shouldn't we die trying?
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I think that's the whole point.
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That's the whole point of vision.
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Vision should be idealistic,
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and it should be, for all practical purposes, impossible.
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But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try,
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and it's the milestones that we reach
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that take us closer to that ideal
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that make us feel that our life and our work have meaning,
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and we're contributing to something bigger than ourselves.
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You know, just because it's impossible
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doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
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As I said, we're still moving the ball down the field.
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We're still making progress.
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Things are still getting better,
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even if we never get to that ideal state.
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So I think idealism is a good thing.
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You know, in the word infinite game,
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one of the beautiful and tragic aspects of life,
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human life at least, at least from the biological
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perspective, is that it ends.
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So sadly, it's.
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To some people, yeah.
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Fine, it's tragic to some people, or is it ends, it ends?
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I think some people believe that it ends on the day you die,
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and some people think it continues on.
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There's, and there's a lot of different ways
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to think what continues on even looks like.
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But let me drag it back to the personal.
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Sure.
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Which is, how do you think about your own mortality?
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Are you afraid of death?
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How do you think about your own death?
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I definitely haven't accomplished everything
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I want to contribute to.
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I would like more time on this earth
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to keep working towards that vision.
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Do you think about the fact that it ends for you?
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Are you cognizant of it?
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Of course I'm cognizant of it.
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I mean, aren't we all?
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I don't dwell on it.
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I'm aware of it.
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I know that my life is finite,
Lex Fridman (14:33.700)
and I know that I have a certain amount of time left
Simon Sinek (14:36.040)
on this planet, and I'd like to make that time be valuable.
Lex Fridman (14:40.260)
You know, some people would think that ideas
Simon Sinek (14:42.740)
kind of allow you to have a certain kind of immortality.
Lex Fridman (14:46.860)
Yeah.
Simon Sinek (14:52.340)
Maybe to linger on this kind of question.
Lex Fridman (14:54.620)
So first to push back on the,
Simon Sinek (14:56.460)
you said that everyone's cognizant of their mortality.
Lex Fridman (14:58.840)
There's a guy named Ernest Becker who would disagree,
Simon Sinek (15:02.660)
that you basically say that most of human cognition
Lex Fridman (15:05.460)
is created by us trying to create an illusion
Lex Fridman (15:09.960)
and try to hide the fact from ourselves,
Lex Fridman (15:11.980)
the fact that we're gonna die,
Simon Sinek (15:13.360)
to try to think that it's all gonna go on forever.
Lex Fridman (15:17.000)
But the fact that we know that it doesn't.
Simon Sinek (15:19.540)
Yes, but this mix of denial.
Lex Fridman (15:21.820)
I mean, I think the book's called Denial of Death.
Simon Sinek (15:24.420)
It's this constant denial that we're running away from.
Lex Fridman (15:30.200)
In fact, some would argue that the inspiration,
Simon Sinek (15:33.740)
the incredible ideas you've put out there,
Lex Fridman (15:35.540)
your TED Talk has been seen by millions
Lex Fridman (15:37.500)
and millions of people, right?
Lex Fridman (15:38.820)
It's just you trying to desperately fight the fact
Simon Sinek (15:41.780)
that you are biologically mortal.
Lex Fridman (15:45.860)
Your creative genius comes from the fact
Simon Sinek (15:48.140)
that you're trying to create ideas
Lex Fridman (15:49.440)
that live on long past you.
Simon Sinek (15:52.180)
Well, that's very nice of you.
Lex Fridman (15:53.140)
I mean, I would like my ideas to live on beyond me
Simon Sinek (15:57.260)
because I think that is a good test
Lex Fridman (15:59.420)
that those ideas have value in the lives of others.
Simon Sinek (16:03.540)
I think that's a good test.
Lex Fridman (16:05.420)
That others would continue to talk about
Simon Sinek (16:08.780)
or share the ideas long after I'm gone,
Lex Fridman (16:12.560)
I think is perhaps the greatest compliment
Simon Sinek (16:16.420)
one can get for one's own work.
Lex Fridman (16:20.620)
But I don't think it's my awareness of my mortality
Simon Sinek (16:23.460)
that drives me to do it.
Lex Fridman (16:25.580)
It's my desire to contribute that drives me to do it.
Simon Sinek (16:30.100)
It's the optimist vision.
Lex Fridman (16:32.800)
It's the pleasure and the fulfillment you get
Simon Sinek (16:36.500)
from inspiring others.
Lex Fridman (16:38.600)
It's as pure as that.
Simon Sinek (16:42.060)
Let me ask, listen, I'm rushing.
Lex Fridman (16:43.380)
I'm trying to get you to get you into these dark areas.
Lex Fridman (16:47.360)
Is the ego tied up into it somehow?
Lex Fridman (16:50.020)
So your name is extremely well known.
Simon Sinek (16:54.460)
If your name wasn't attached to it,
Lex Fridman (16:56.100)
do you think you would act differently?
Simon Sinek (16:58.580)
I mean, for years, I hated that my name was attached to it.
Lex Fridman (17:02.280)
I had a rule for years that I wouldn't have my face
Simon Sinek (17:06.100)
on the front page of the website.
Lex Fridman (17:09.820)
I had a fight with the publisher
Simon Sinek (17:10.900)
because I didn't want my name big on the book.
Lex Fridman (17:14.080)
I wanted it tiny on the book.
Simon Sinek (17:15.500)
Because I kept telling them it's not about me,
Lex Fridman (17:17.100)
it's about the ideas.
Simon Sinek (17:18.220)
They wanted to put my name on the top of my book, I refused.
Lex Fridman (17:20.660)
None of my books have my names on the top
Simon Sinek (17:22.460)
because I won't let them.
Lex Fridman (17:25.300)
They would like very much to put my name
Simon Sinek (17:26.560)
on the top of the book,
Lex Fridman (17:27.400)
but the idea has to be bigger than me.
Simon Sinek (17:30.260)
I'm not bigger than the idea.
Lex Fridman (17:32.060)
That's beautifully put.
Lex Fridman (17:32.900)
Do you think ego?
Lex Fridman (17:34.460)
But I also am aware that I've become recognized
Simon Sinek (17:38.020)
as the messenger.
Lex Fridman (17:39.340)
And even though I still think the message is bigger than me,
Simon Sinek (17:41.980)
I recognize that I have a responsibility as the messenger.
Lex Fridman (17:45.160)
And whether I like it or not is irrelevant.
Simon Sinek (17:47.580)
I accept the responsibility, I'm happy to do it.
Lex Fridman (17:53.060)
I'm not sure how to phrase this,
Lex Fridman (17:54.760)
but there's a large part of the culture right now
Lex Fridman (17:58.940)
that emphasizes all the things that nobody disagrees with,
Simon Sinek (18:03.420)
which is health, sleep, diet, relaxation,
Lex Fridman (18:07.100)
meditation, vacation, are really important.
Lex Fridman (18:10.340)
And there's no, it's like,
Lex Fridman (18:11.740)
you can't really argue against that.
Simon Sinek (18:13.460)
In fact, people.
Lex Fridman (18:14.420)
Less sleep.
Simon Sinek (18:16.040)
Less.
Lex Fridman (18:16.880)
Just, I'm joking.
Simon Sinek (18:17.700)
Yes, well, that's the thing.
Lex Fridman (18:18.940)
I often speak to the fact that passion
Lex Fridman (18:23.820)
and love for what you're doing and the two words hard work,
Lex Fridman (18:28.320)
especially in the engineering fields,
Simon Sinek (18:30.320)
are more important than,
Lex Fridman (18:32.540)
are more important to prioritize than sleep.
Simon Sinek (18:35.880)
Even though sleep is really important,
Lex Fridman (18:38.140)
your mind should be obsessed with the hard work,
Simon Sinek (18:40.560)
with the passion, and so on.
Lex Fridman (18:41.860)
And then I get some pushback, of course, from people.
Lex Fridman (18:44.900)
What do you make sense of that?
Lex Fridman (18:46.100)
Is that just me, the crazy Russian engineer,
Lex Fridman (18:49.140)
really pushing hard work?
Lex Fridman (18:50.340)
Probably.
Simon Sinek (18:52.460)
I think that that's a short term strategy.
Lex Fridman (18:55.120)
I think if you sacrifice your health for the work,
Simon Sinek (18:57.900)
at some point, it catches up with you.
Lex Fridman (19:00.380)
And at some point, it's like going, going, going,
Lex Fridman (19:02.500)
and you get sick.
Lex Fridman (19:03.460)
Your body will shut down for you
Simon Sinek (19:04.740)
if you refuse to take care of yourself.
Lex Fridman (19:07.940)
You get sick.
Simon Sinek (19:09.080)
It's what happens.
Lex Fridman (19:09.920)
Sometimes, more severe illness
Simon Sinek (19:12.540)
than something that just slows you down.
Lex Fridman (19:14.240)
So I think taking, getting sleep,
Simon Sinek (19:17.940)
I mean, there have been studies on this that,
Lex Fridman (19:20.900)
executives, for example, who get a full night's sleep
Lex Fridman (19:24.060)
and stop at a reasonable hour,
Lex Fridman (19:26.020)
actually accomplish more, are more productive
Simon Sinek (19:29.620)
than people who work and burn the midnight oil
Lex Fridman (19:31.540)
because their brains are working better
Simon Sinek (19:33.500)
because they're well rested.
Lex Fridman (19:35.380)
So, you know, working hard, yes,
Lex Fridman (19:37.940)
but why not work smart?
Lex Fridman (19:41.180)
I think that giving our minds and our bodies rest
Simon Sinek (19:45.380)
makes us more efficient.
Lex Fridman (19:47.500)
I think just driving, driving, driving, driving
Simon Sinek (19:49.220)
is a short term, it's a short term strategy.
Lex Fridman (19:52.100)
So, but to push back on that a little bit,
Simon Sinek (19:54.300)
the annoying thing is you're like 100% right
Lex Fridman (19:57.020)
in terms of science, right?
Lex Fridman (19:58.660)
But the thing is, because you're 100% right,
Lex Fridman (20:02.940)
that weak part of your mind uses that fact
Simon Sinek (20:07.540)
to convince you, like what, so, you know,
Lex Fridman (20:10.140)
I get all kinds of, my mind comes up
Simon Sinek (20:12.100)
with all kinds of excuses to try to convince me
Lex Fridman (20:14.300)
that I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing.
Simon Sinek (20:16.020)
To rationalize. To rationalize.
Lex Fridman (20:18.060)
And so what I have a sense,
Simon Sinek (20:21.300)
I think what you said about executives and leaders
Lex Fridman (20:23.820)
is absolutely right, but there's the early days.
Simon Sinek (20:26.860)
The early days of madness and passion.
Lex Fridman (20:29.100)
For sure.
Simon Sinek (20:29.940)
Then I feel like emphasizing sleep,
Lex Fridman (20:33.700)
thinking about sleep is giving yourself a way out
Simon Sinek (20:37.580)
from the fact that those early days,
Lex Fridman (20:39.500)
especially, can be suffering.
Simon Sinek (20:42.800)
As long, it's not sustainable.
Lex Fridman (20:45.700)
You know, it's not sustainable.
Simon Sinek (20:46.980)
Sure, if you're investing all that energy in something
Lex Fridman (20:50.140)
at the beginning to get it up and running,
Simon Sinek (20:52.620)
then at some point you're gonna have to slow down.
Lex Fridman (20:55.660)
Or your body will slow you down for you.
Simon Sinek (20:57.580)
Like, you can choose or your body can choose.
Lex Fridman (21:01.820)
I mean.
Simon Sinek (21:02.660)
So, okay, so you don't think, from my perspective,
Lex Fridman (21:04.820)
it feels like people have gotten a little bit soft.
Lex Fridman (21:07.380)
But you're saying, no.
Lex Fridman (21:08.220)
I think that there seems evidence
Simon Sinek (21:11.140)
that working harder and later have taken a back seat.
Lex Fridman (21:16.140)
I've taken a back seat.
Simon Sinek (21:21.580)
I think we have to be careful with broad generalizations.
Lex Fridman (21:24.660)
But I think if you go into the workplace,
Simon Sinek (21:28.140)
there are people who would complain
Lex Fridman (21:29.540)
that more people now than before,
Simon Sinek (21:33.300)
you know, look at their watches and say,
Lex Fridman (21:34.940)
oops, five o clock, goodbye.
Lex Fridman (21:36.580)
Right?
Lex Fridman (21:37.420)
Now, is that a problem with the people?
Simon Sinek (21:39.580)
You're saying it's the people giving themselves excuses
Lex Fridman (21:41.700)
and people who don't work hard.
Simon Sinek (21:42.960)
Or is it the organizations aren't giving them something
Lex Fridman (21:45.040)
to believe in, something to be passionate about?
Simon Sinek (21:46.820)
We can't manufacture passion.
Lex Fridman (21:48.100)
You can't just tell someone, be passionate.
Simon Sinek (21:51.040)
You know, that's not how it works.
Lex Fridman (21:52.360)
Passion's an output, not an input.
Simon Sinek (21:55.420)
Like if I believe in something
Lex Fridman (21:56.440)
and I wanna contribute all that energy to do it,
Simon Sinek (21:58.780)
we call that passion.
Lex Fridman (22:00.220)
You know, working hard for something we love is passion.
Simon Sinek (22:02.340)
Working hard for something we don't care about
Lex Fridman (22:04.140)
is called stress.
Lex Fridman (22:05.260)
But we're working hard either way.
Lex Fridman (22:07.760)
So I think the organizations bear some accountability
Lex Fridman (22:10.380)
and our leaders bear some accountability,
Lex Fridman (22:11.680)
which is if they're not offering a sense of purpose,
Simon Sinek (22:13.580)
if they're not offering us a sense of cause,
Lex Fridman (22:15.500)
if they're not telling us that our work is worth more
Simon Sinek (22:17.660)
than simply the money it makes,
Lex Fridman (22:19.780)
then yeah, I'm gonna come at five o clock
Simon Sinek (22:21.140)
because I don't really care about making you money.
Lex Fridman (22:23.180)
Remember, we live in a world right now
Simon Sinek (22:24.620)
where a lot of people, rather a few people,
Lex Fridman (22:26.980)
are getting rich on the hard work of others.
Lex Fridman (22:29.700)
And so I think when people look up and say,
Lex Fridman (22:33.020)
well, why would I do that?
Simon Sinek (22:34.620)
I'll just, if you're not gonna look after me
Lex Fridman (22:36.600)
and then you're gonna lay me off at the end of the year
Simon Sinek (22:38.180)
because you missed your arbitrary projections,
Lex Fridman (22:40.460)
you know, you're gonna lay me off
Simon Sinek (22:41.740)
because you missed your arbitrary projections,
Lex Fridman (22:43.940)
then why would I offer my hard work and loyalty to you?
Lex Fridman (22:47.420)
So I think, I don't think we can immediately blame people
Lex Fridman (22:50.740)
for going soft.
Simon Sinek (22:51.940)
I think we can blame leaders for their inability
Lex Fridman (22:56.980)
or failure to offer their people something bigger
Simon Sinek (22:59.420)
than making a product or making money.
Lex Fridman (23:02.660)
Yeah, so that's brilliant.
Lex Fridman (23:04.300)
And start with why, leaders eat less, your books.
Lex Fridman (23:07.940)
You basically talk about what it takes to be a good leader.
Lex Fridman (23:13.980)
And so some of the blame should go on the leader,
Lex Fridman (23:15.700)
but how much of it is on finding your passion?
Lex Fridman (23:19.900)
How much is it on the individual?
Lex Fridman (23:21.900)
And allowing yourself to pursue that passion,
Simon Sinek (23:24.780)
pushing yourself to your limits,
Lex Fridman (23:26.140)
to really take concrete steps
Simon Sinek (23:30.220)
along your path towards that passion.
Lex Fridman (23:33.220)
Yeah, there's mutual responsibility.
Simon Sinek (23:34.620)
There's mutual accountability.
Lex Fridman (23:35.540)
I mean, we're responsible as individuals
Simon Sinek (23:37.380)
to find the organizations and find the leaders
Lex Fridman (23:39.980)
that inspire us.
Lex Fridman (23:41.180)
And organizations are responsible for maintaining
Lex Fridman (23:43.420)
that flame and giving people who believe
Lex Fridman (23:46.380)
what they believed, you know, a chance to contribute.
Lex Fridman (23:50.580)
Sort of to linger on it,
Lex Fridman (23:51.780)
have you by chance seen the movie Whiplash?
Lex Fridman (23:54.020)
Yes.
Simon Sinek (23:56.500)
Again, maybe I'm romanticizing suffering.
Lex Fridman (23:59.380)
Again. It's the Russian in you.
Simon Sinek (24:00.420)
It's the Russian. Yeah.
Lex Fridman (24:01.660)
The Russians love suffering.
Lex Fridman (24:03.380)
But for people who haven't seen,
Lex Fridman (24:07.660)
the movie Whiplash has a drum instructor
Simon Sinek (24:10.860)
that pushes the drum musician to his limits
Lex Fridman (24:16.540)
to bring out the best in him.
Lex Fridman (24:18.660)
And there's a toxic nature to it.
Lex Fridman (24:20.420)
There's suffering in it.
Simon Sinek (24:21.780)
Like you've worked with a lot of great leaders,
Lex Fridman (24:24.300)
a lot of great individuals.
Lex Fridman (24:25.500)
So is that toxic relationship as toxic
Lex Fridman (24:29.380)
as it appears in the movie?
Lex Fridman (24:30.460)
Or is that fundamental?
Lex Fridman (24:31.420)
I've seen that relationship,
Simon Sinek (24:33.620)
especially in the past with Olympic athletes,
Lex Fridman (24:36.420)
especially in athletics, extreme performers
Simon Sinek (24:39.780)
seem to do wonders.
Lex Fridman (24:40.860)
It does wonders for me.
Simon Sinek (24:42.060)
There's some of my best relationships,
Lex Fridman (24:44.900)
now I'm not representative of everyone certainly,
Lex Fridman (24:47.660)
but some of my best relationships for mentee and mentor
Lex Fridman (24:51.100)
have been toxic from an external perspective.
Lex Fridman (24:56.420)
What do you make of that movie?
Lex Fridman (24:57.700)
What do you make of that kind of relationship?
Simon Sinek (25:00.580)
That's not my favorite movie.
Lex Fridman (25:04.140)
Okay, so you don't think that's a healthy,
Simon Sinek (25:06.940)
you don't think that kind of relationship
Lex Fridman (25:08.660)
is a great example of a great leader?
Simon Sinek (25:11.940)
No, I think it's a short term strategy.
Lex Fridman (25:13.060)
I mean, short term.
Simon Sinek (25:13.900)
I mean, look, being hard on someone
Lex Fridman (25:15.460)
is not the same as toxicity.
Simon Sinek (25:18.580)
If you go to the Marine Corps,
Lex Fridman (25:21.900)
a drill instructor will be very hard on their Marines.
Lex Fridman (25:26.140)
And then, but still, even on the last day of bootcamp,
Lex Fridman (25:29.500)
they'll take their hat off and they'll become a human.
Lex Fridman (25:32.020)
But of all the drill instructors,
Lex Fridman (25:34.820)
you know, the three or four main drill instructors
Simon Sinek (25:38.740)
assigned to a group of recruits,
Lex Fridman (25:40.500)
the one that they all want the respect of
Simon Sinek (25:42.100)
is the one that's the hardest on them.
Lex Fridman (25:44.100)
That's true.
Lex Fridman (25:45.820)
And you hear, you know,
Lex Fridman (25:47.660)
there's plenty of stories of people
Simon Sinek (25:48.660)
who want to earn the respect of a hard parent
Lex Fridman (25:50.940)
or a hard teacher.
Lex Fridman (25:53.100)
But fundamental, that parent, that teacher,
Lex Fridman (25:55.020)
that drill instructor has to believe in that person,
Simon Sinek (25:57.300)
has to see potential in them.
Lex Fridman (25:58.620)
It's not a formula,
Simon Sinek (25:59.860)
which is if I'm hard on people, they'll do well,
Lex Fridman (26:01.940)
which is there has to still be love.
Simon Sinek (26:04.100)
It has to be done with absolute love.
Lex Fridman (26:05.980)
And it has to be done responsibly.
Simon Sinek (26:08.980)
I mean, some people can take
Lex Fridman (26:09.860)
a little more pressure than others,
Lex Fridman (26:11.780)
but it's not, I think it's irresponsible
Lex Fridman (26:13.860)
to think of it as a formula
Simon Sinek (26:15.700)
that if I'm just toxic at people, they will do well.
Lex Fridman (26:20.460)
It depends on their personalities.
Simon Sinek (26:21.820)
First of all, it works for some, but not all.
Lex Fridman (26:23.900)
And second of all, it can't be done willy nilly.
Simon Sinek (26:27.540)
It has to still be done with care and love.
Lex Fridman (26:29.980)
And sometimes you can get equal or better results
Simon Sinek (26:36.220)
without all of the toxicity.
Lex Fridman (26:37.700)
So one of the, I guess toxicity on my part
Simon Sinek (26:41.900)
was a really bad word to use,
Lex Fridman (26:43.540)
but if we talk about what makes a good leader
Lex Fridman (26:46.420)
and just look at an example in particular,
Lex Fridman (26:49.660)
looking at Elon Musk,
Simon Sinek (26:51.220)
he's known to push people to their limits
Lex Fridman (26:54.220)
in a way that I think really challenges people
Simon Sinek (27:01.340)
in a way they've never been challenged before
Lex Fridman (27:03.060)
to do the impossible.
Lex Fridman (27:04.420)
But it can really break people.
Lex Fridman (27:07.300)
And jobs was hard and Amazon is hard.
Lex Fridman (27:11.260)
But the thing that's important is none of them lie about it.
Lex Fridman (27:15.220)
People ask me about Amazon all the time.
Simon Sinek (27:16.420)
Like Jeff Bezos never lied about it.
Lex Fridman (27:18.780)
Even the ones who like Amazon don't last
Simon Sinek (27:20.460)
more than a couple of years before they burn out.
Lex Fridman (27:22.860)
But when we're honest about the culture,
Simon Sinek (27:25.340)
then it gives people the opportunity
Lex Fridman (27:26.620)
who like to work in that kind of culture
Simon Sinek (27:28.100)
to choose to work in that kind of culture,
Lex Fridman (27:29.940)
as opposed to pretending and saying,
Simon Sinek (27:31.380)
oh no, this is all, it's all lovey lovey here.
Lex Fridman (27:34.500)
And then you show up and it's the furthest thing from it.
Simon Sinek (27:37.260)
So, I mean, I think the reputations
Lex Fridman (27:41.420)
of putting a lot of pressure on people to,
Simon Sinek (27:44.060)
jobs was not an easy man to work for.
Lex Fridman (27:48.780)
He pushed people, but everyone who worked there
Simon Sinek (27:50.940)
was given the space to create and do things
Lex Fridman (27:52.980)
that they would not have been able to do anywhere else
Lex Fridman (27:54.740)
and work at a level that they didn't work anywhere else.
Lex Fridman (27:56.980)
And jobs didn't have all the answers.
Simon Sinek (27:58.740)
I mean, he pushed his people to come up with answers.
Lex Fridman (28:02.100)
He wasn't just looking for people to execute his ideas.
Lex Fridman (28:07.460)
And people did, people accomplished more
Lex Fridman (28:09.220)
than they thought they were capable of, which is wonderful.
Lex Fridman (28:12.300)
How do you, you're talking about the infinite game
Lex Fridman (28:16.500)
and not thinking about too short term.
Lex Fridman (28:19.820)
And yet you see some of the most brilliant people
Lex Fridman (28:22.860)
in the world being pushed by Elam us
Simon Sinek (28:24.740)
to accomplish some of the most incredible things.
Lex Fridman (28:27.060)
When we're talking about autopilot,
Simon Sinek (28:28.420)
when we're talking about some of the hardware engineering,
Lex Fridman (28:32.020)
and they do some of the best work of their life
Lex Fridman (28:35.180)
and then leave.
Lex Fridman (28:37.340)
How do you balance that in terms of what it takes
Simon Sinek (28:40.300)
to be a good leader,
Lex Fridman (28:41.700)
what it takes to accomplish great things in your life?
Lex Fridman (28:44.660)
So I think there's a difference between someone
Lex Fridman (28:49.380)
who can get a lot out of people in the short term
Lex Fridman (28:52.660)
and building an organization
Lex Fridman (28:53.700)
that can sustain beyond any individual.
Simon Sinek (28:57.180)
There's a difference.
Lex Fridman (28:58.060)
When you say beyond any individual,
Simon Sinek (28:59.420)
you mean beyond like if the leader dies.
Lex Fridman (29:03.020)
Correct.
Simon Sinek (29:03.860)
Like could Tesla continue to do what it's doing
Lex Fridman (29:05.540)
without Elon Musk?
Lex Fridman (29:08.540)
And you're perhaps implying,
Lex Fridman (29:10.700)
which is a very interesting question that it cannot.
Simon Sinek (29:13.660)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (29:15.100)
You know, the argument you're making
Simon Sinek (29:16.420)
of this person who pushes everyone
Lex Fridman (29:20.140)
arguably is not a repeatable model, right?
Simon Sinek (29:23.340)
You know, is Apple the same without Steve Jobs
Lex Fridman (29:25.780)
or is it slowly moving in a different direction?
Simon Sinek (29:29.860)
Or has he established something
Lex Fridman (29:31.060)
that could be resurrected with the right leader?
Simon Sinek (29:34.060)
That was his dream, I think,
Lex Fridman (29:35.700)
is to build an organization that lives on beyond them.
Simon Sinek (29:39.940)
At least I remember reading that somewhere.
Lex Fridman (29:40.780)
I think that's what a lot of leaders desire,
Simon Sinek (29:44.340)
which is to create something that was bigger than them.
Lex Fridman (29:47.340)
You know, most businesses, most entrepreneurial ventures
Simon Sinek (29:51.500)
could not pass the school bus test,
Lex Fridman (29:54.900)
which is if the founder was hit by a school bus,
Simon Sinek (29:57.180)
would everyone continue the business without them
Lex Fridman (29:58.820)
or would they all just go find jobs?
Lex Fridman (30:01.140)
And the vast majority of companies would fail that test,
Lex Fridman (30:04.820)
you know, especially in the entrepreneurial world
Simon Sinek (30:08.300)
that if you take the inspired visionary leader away,
Lex Fridman (30:11.020)
the whole thing collapses.
Lex Fridman (30:12.380)
So is that a business
Lex Fridman (30:13.660)
or is that just a force of personality?
Lex Fridman (30:15.940)
And a lot of entrepreneurs, you know, face that reality,
Lex Fridman (30:19.300)
which is they have to be in every meeting,
Simon Sinek (30:20.580)
make every decision, you know, come up with every idea,
Lex Fridman (30:24.100)
because if they don't, who will?
Lex Fridman (30:25.860)
And the question is, is, well,
Lex Fridman (30:27.380)
what have you done to build your bench?
Simon Sinek (30:31.100)
Is it, it's not, sometimes it's ego,
Lex Fridman (30:33.380)
the belief that only I can.
Simon Sinek (30:35.420)
Sometimes it's just things got,
Lex Fridman (30:39.700)
did so well for so long that just forgot.
Lex Fridman (30:43.660)
And sometimes it's a failure
Lex Fridman (30:48.300)
to build the training programs or hire the right people
Simon Sinek (30:51.860)
that could replace you,
Lex Fridman (30:53.780)
who are maybe smarter and better.
Lex Fridman (30:58.020)
And browbeating people is only one strategy.
Lex Fridman (31:01.500)
I don't think it's necessarily the only strategy,
Simon Sinek (31:03.500)
nor is it always the best strategy.
Lex Fridman (31:05.100)
I think people get to choose the cultures
Simon Sinek (31:07.140)
they wanna work in.
Lex Fridman (31:07.980)
This is why I think companies should be honest
Simon Sinek (31:12.860)
about the kind of culture that they've created.
Lex Fridman (31:16.100)
You know, I heard a story about Apple
Simon Sinek (31:18.100)
where somebody came in from a big company,
Lex Fridman (31:21.340)
you know, he had accomplished a lot
Lex Fridman (31:23.380)
and his ego was very large
Lex Fridman (31:26.220)
and he was going on about how he did this and he did that
Lex Fridman (31:28.420)
and he did this and he did that.
Lex Fridman (31:30.460)
And somebody from Apple said,
Simon Sinek (31:32.340)
we don't care what you've done.
Lex Fridman (31:34.580)
The question is, what are you gonna do?
Lex Fridman (31:36.420)
And that's, you know, for somebody who wants to be pushed,
Lex Fridman (31:41.420)
that's the place you go because you choose to be pushed.
Simon Sinek (31:45.620)
Now, we all wanna be pushed to some degree,
Lex Fridman (31:47.460)
you know, anybody who wants to, you know,
Simon Sinek (31:49.700)
accomplish anything in this world
Lex Fridman (31:50.740)
wants to be pushed to some degree,
Simon Sinek (31:51.980)
whether it's through self pressure or external pressure
Lex Fridman (31:55.220)
or, you know, public pressure, whatever it is.
Lex Fridman (31:59.860)
But I think this whole idea of one size fits all
Lex Fridman (32:02.940)
is a false narrative of how leadership works,
Lex Fridman (32:05.740)
but what all leadership requires is creating an environment
Lex Fridman (32:08.580)
in which people can work at their natural best.
Lex Fridman (32:10.540)
But you have a sense that it's possible
Lex Fridman (32:12.940)
to create a business where it lives on beyond you.
Lex Fridman (32:17.780)
So if we look at now,
Lex Fridman (32:19.740)
if we just look at this current moment,
Simon Sinek (32:21.820)
I just recently talked to Jack Dorsey, CEO of Twitter,
Lex Fridman (32:25.100)
and he's under a lot of pressure now.
Simon Sinek (32:26.780)
I don't know if you're aware of the news
Lex Fridman (32:28.180)
that he's being pushed out as a potential CEO of Twitter
Simon Sinek (32:31.700)
because he's the CEO already
Lex Fridman (32:33.140)
of an incredibly successful company
Simon Sinek (32:35.180)
plus he wants to go to Africa to live a few months in Africa
Lex Fridman (32:39.180)
to connect with the world that's outside of the Silicon Valley
Lex Fridman (32:43.820)
and sort of, there's this idea,
Lex Fridman (32:45.780)
well, can Twitter live without Jack?
Simon Sinek (32:48.420)
We'll find out.
Lex Fridman (32:50.260)
But you have a general, as a student of great leadership,
Simon Sinek (32:55.660)
you have a general sense that it's possible.
Lex Fridman (32:57.540)
Yeah, of course it's possible.
Simon Sinek (32:58.540)
I mean, what Bill Gates built with Microsoft
Lex Fridman (33:01.660)
may not have survived Steve Ballmer
Simon Sinek (33:04.260)
if the company weren't so rich,
Lex Fridman (33:06.540)
but Sachin Ardala is putting it back on track again.
Simon Sinek (33:11.260)
It's become a visionary company again.
Lex Fridman (33:12.900)
It's attracting great talent again.
Simon Sinek (33:14.060)
It went through a period
Lex Fridman (33:14.900)
where they couldn't get the best talent
Lex Fridman (33:16.500)
and the best talent was leaving.
Lex Fridman (33:17.860)
Now people wanna work for Microsoft again.
Simon Sinek (33:19.660)
Well, that's not because of pressure.
Lex Fridman (33:21.900)
Ballmer put more pressure on people
Simon Sinek (33:24.340)
mainly to hit numbers than anything else.
Lex Fridman (33:26.940)
That didn't work.
Lex Fridman (33:28.660)
Yes. Right?
Lex Fridman (33:30.500)
And so the question is,
Lex Fridman (33:31.980)
what kind of pressure are we putting on people?
Lex Fridman (33:33.340)
We're putting on pressure people to hit numbers
Simon Sinek (33:35.580)
or hit arbitrary deadlines,
Lex Fridman (33:38.140)
or we're putting on pressure on people
Simon Sinek (33:39.420)
because we believe that they can do better work.
Lex Fridman (33:41.900)
And the work that we're trying to do
Simon Sinek (33:44.340)
is to advance a vision that's bigger than all of us.
Lex Fridman (33:46.580)
And if you're gonna put pressure on people,
Simon Sinek (33:47.900)
it better be for the right reason.
Lex Fridman (33:49.700)
Like if you're gonna put pressure on me,
Simon Sinek (33:50.940)
it better be for a worthwhile reason.
Lex Fridman (33:52.460)
If it's just to hit a goal,
Simon Sinek (33:54.300)
if it's just to hit some arbitrary date
Lex Fridman (33:55.900)
or some arbitrary number or make a stock price
Simon Sinek (33:58.100)
hit some target, you can keep it, I'm outta here.
Lex Fridman (34:01.060)
But if you wanna put pressure on me
Simon Sinek (34:02.140)
because we are brothers and sisters in arms
Lex Fridman (34:06.900)
working to advance a cause bigger than ourselves,
Simon Sinek (34:09.020)
that we believe whatever we're gonna build
Lex Fridman (34:10.660)
will significantly contribute
Simon Sinek (34:12.340)
to the greater good of society,
Lex Fridman (34:14.140)
then go ahead, I'll take the pressure.
Lex Fridman (34:16.220)
And if you look at the Apples
Lex Fridman (34:17.380)
and if you look at the Elon Musk's,
Simon Sinek (34:23.060)
the Jobs and the Elon Musk,
Lex Fridman (34:24.100)
they fundamentally believed that what they were doing
Simon Sinek (34:26.060)
would improve society.
Lex Fridman (34:27.460)
And it was for the good of humankind.
Lex Fridman (34:31.140)
And so the pressure, in other words,
Lex Fridman (34:33.740)
what they were doing was more important,
Simon Sinek (34:36.020)
more valuable than any individual on the team.
Lex Fridman (34:39.820)
And so the pressure they put on people
Simon Sinek (34:41.140)
served a greater good.
Lex Fridman (34:42.900)
And so we looked to the left
Lex Fridman (34:45.620)
and we looked to the right to each other and said,
Lex Fridman (34:47.500)
we're in this together.
Simon Sinek (34:49.060)
We accept this, we want this.
Lex Fridman (34:51.540)
But if it's just pressure to hit a number
Simon Sinek (34:54.820)
or make the widget move a little faster,
Lex Fridman (35:01.220)
that's soul sucking.
Simon Sinek (35:03.540)
That's not passion, that's stress.
Lex Fridman (35:06.580)
And I think a lot of leaders confuse
Simon Sinek (35:11.140)
that making people work hard
Lex Fridman (35:12.260)
is not what makes them passionate.
Simon Sinek (35:15.060)
Giving to them something to believe in
Lex Fridman (35:17.540)
and work on is what drives passion.
Lex Fridman (35:20.860)
And when you have that, then turning up the pressure
Lex Fridman (35:23.100)
only brings people together,
Simon Sinek (35:26.580)
drives them further.
Lex Fridman (35:27.420)
If done the right way.
Simon Sinek (35:28.820)
If done the right way.
Lex Fridman (35:30.740)
Speaking of pressure,
Simon Sinek (35:32.260)
I'm gonna give you 90 seconds to answer the last question,
Lex Fridman (35:36.980)
which is if I told you that tomorrow
Simon Sinek (35:39.420)
was your last day to live,
Lex Fridman (35:41.140)
we talked about mortality,
Simon Sinek (35:42.860)
sunrise to sunset, can you tell me,
Lex Fridman (35:45.260)
can you take me through the day?
Lex Fridman (35:46.300)
What do you think that day would involve?
Lex Fridman (35:48.460)
You can't spend it with your family,
Simon Sinek (35:50.220)
I told you as well.
Lex Fridman (35:52.060)
I would probably want to fill all of my senses
Simon Sinek (35:54.940)
with things that excite my senses.
Lex Fridman (35:59.100)
I'd want to look at beautiful art.
Simon Sinek (36:00.420)
I'd want to listen to beautiful music.
Lex Fridman (36:02.860)
I'd want to taste incredible food.
Simon Sinek (36:04.900)
I'd want to smell amazing tastes.
Lex Fridman (36:06.900)
I'd want to touch something that's beautiful to touch.
Simon Sinek (36:14.100)
I'd want all of my senses to just be consumed
Lex Fridman (36:19.180)
with things that I find beautiful.
Lex Fridman (36:21.100)
And you talked about this idea of
Lex Fridman (36:23.260)
we don't do it often these days,
Simon Sinek (36:24.780)
of just listening to music, turning off all the devices
Lex Fridman (36:27.380)
and actually taking in and listening to music.
Lex Fridman (36:29.820)
So as an addendum,
Lex Fridman (36:33.300)
if we were to talk about music,
Lex Fridman (36:34.500)
what song would you be blasting
Lex Fridman (36:36.420)
on this last day you're alive?
Lex Fridman (36:38.100)
Is it Led Zeppelin?
Lex Fridman (36:39.060)
What are we talking about?
Simon Sinek (36:39.900)
That I love.
Lex Fridman (36:40.740)
No, no.
Simon Sinek (36:41.580)
There's probably gonna be a Beatles song in there.
Lex Fridman (36:42.940)
There'll definitely be some Beethoven in there.
Simon Sinek (36:46.460)
The classics.
Lex Fridman (36:47.500)
The classics.
Simon Sinek (36:48.340)
Yeah, exactly.
Lex Fridman (36:49.180)
Well, thank you so much for talking today.
Simon Sinek (36:51.860)
Thank you for making time for it.
Lex Fridman (36:53.620)
Under pressure, we made it happen.
Simon Sinek (36:55.420)
It was great.
Lex Fridman (36:56.860)
Thanks for listening to this conversation
Simon Sinek (36:58.420)
with Simon Sinek.
Lex Fridman (36:59.740)
And thank you to our sponsors, Cash App and Masterclass.
Simon Sinek (37:03.660)
Please consider supporting the podcast
Lex Fridman (37:05.380)
by downloading Cash App and using code LexPodcast
Lex Fridman (37:09.060)
and signing up to Masterclass at masterclass.com slash Lex.
Lex Fridman (37:14.620)
If you enjoy this podcast, subscribe on YouTube,
Simon Sinek (37:17.260)
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Lex Fridman (37:19.780)
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Simon Sinek (37:21.060)
or simply connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman.
Lex Fridman (37:25.420)
And now let me leave you with some words from Simon Sinek.
Simon Sinek (37:29.100)
There are only two ways to influence human behavior.
Lex Fridman (37:32.340)
You can manipulate it or you can inspire it.
Simon Sinek (37:35.460)
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
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