Saagar Enjeti: Politics, History, and Power

Lex Fridman (01:27.920)

of surface political bickering of the day.

Saagar Enjeti (01:30.460)

I do find politics fascinating,

Lex Fridman (01:32.460)

but not the talking points produced

Saagar Enjeti (01:34.240)

by the industrial engagement complex

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of red versus blue division.

Saagar Enjeti (01:38.920)

Instead, I'm fascinated by human beings who seek power

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and how power changes them.

Saagar Enjeti (01:44.920)

I don't have a political affiliation

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and my ideas, at least I hope so,

Saagar Enjeti (01:49.120)

are defined more by curiosity and learning

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in the face of uncertainty

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and less by the echo chambers who tell me

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what I'm supposed to think.

Saagar Enjeti (01:58.460)

I'm constantly evolving, learning,

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and doing my best to do so without ego and with empathy.

Saagar Enjeti (02:04.280)

Please be patient with me.

Lex Fridman (02:05.960)

As far as I'm aware,

Saagar Enjeti (02:07.040)

I do not have any derangement syndromes,

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nor do I get a medical prescription

Saagar Enjeti (02:11.120)

of blue, red, white, or black pills.

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If I say something, I say it because I'm genuinely thinking

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and struggling with the ideas.

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I have no agenda, just a bit of a hope

Saagar Enjeti (02:23.840)

to add more love to the world.

Lex Fridman (02:26.680)

If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube,

Saagar Enjeti (02:29.160)

review it on Apple Podcast, follow on Spotify,

Lex Fridman (02:32.220)

support it on Patreon, or connect with me

Saagar Enjeti (02:34.280)

on Twitter at Lex Friedman.

Lex Fridman (02:36.320)

And now, here's my conversation with Sagar Anjati.

Saagar Enjeti (02:41.120)

There's no better gifts in this world

Lex Fridman (02:44.760)

than a book about Hitler, so thank you so much.

Saagar Enjeti (02:47.840)

I've gotten a gift when we were just talking about flying,

Lex Fridman (02:50.780)

the watch from Joe Rogan,

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and this almost beats it.

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So tell me what this particular book on Hitler is.

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So this is volume two.

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Yes, so this is Ian Kershaw.

Saagar Enjeti (03:01.980)

He wrote the famous two volume on Hitler.

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I'm a big book nerd,

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and I spend a lot of time reading biographies in particular.

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So this one, if you need a one volume,

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"'Rise and Fall of the Third Reich,' right?

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I think you talked about that, William Shire,

Saagar Enjeti (03:15.520)

because that's like Hitler's rise,

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Nazi Germany, the war, et cetera.

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But I like bios because a good biography

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is story of the times, right?

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And so this one, the first volume, it does exactly that,

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which is that it doesn't just tell the story of Hitler.

Saagar Enjeti (03:30.880)

It's the context of this kid in Austria,

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and he's got all these dreams,

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but then actually pretty courageous

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in terms of World War I, right?

Saagar Enjeti (03:38.840)

Gets pinned to metal on by the Kaiser.

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And then what it's like to lose World War I,

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and actually lose this stain,

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and then the rise within, everybody knows that story,

Saagar Enjeti (03:49.800)

the Beer Hall Putsch and all that.

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This one I like, and the reason I like Kershaw

Saagar Enjeti (03:53.960)

is obviously number one, it's English,

Lex Fridman (03:55.680)

which is actually hard, right?

Saagar Enjeti (03:57.000)

Like in order to write that story,

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who can do both the primary source material

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and then translate it for people like us,

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but he tells the dynamic story of Hitler so well

Saagar Enjeti (04:08.020)

in the second volume, just like the level of detail.

Lex Fridman (04:10.920)

You've talked about this, Lex,

Saagar Enjeti (04:12.220)

like what was it like inside that room,

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inside with Chamberlain?

Saagar Enjeti (04:16.200)

Like what was it like in terms of who was this

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like magnetic madman who did convince

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the smartest people in the world at the time?

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And up until like 1940, the Soviet gamble,

Saagar Enjeti (04:28.900)

like it took tremendous risks, but like highly calculated,

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thinking, no, no, no, I'm not gonna pay for this one.

Saagar Enjeti (04:36.480)

I'm not gonna pay for this one.

Lex Fridman (04:37.760)

And it put himself, he had a remarkable ability,

Saagar Enjeti (04:40.520)

not just to put himself in the minds of the German people,

Lex Fridman (04:42.920)

but in terms of his adversaries,

Saagar Enjeti (04:44.400)

like with when he was across from Mussolini.

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Calculate, he's like, how exactly did Mussolini,

Saagar Enjeti (04:48.760)

the guy who created fascism,

Lex Fridman (04:49.800)

becomes like second fiddle to Hitler?

Saagar Enjeti (04:52.440)

Think it's an amazing bio.

Lex Fridman (04:53.640)

And yeah, like Ian Kershaw, along with Richard Evans,

Saagar Enjeti (04:57.920)

two of my favorite authors on the Third Reich, no question.

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Do you think he was born this way,

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that charisma, whatever that is?

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Or was it something he developed strategically?

Saagar Enjeti (05:06.040)

That's like the question you apply

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to some of the great leaders.

Saagar Enjeti (05:09.200)

Was he just a madman who had the instinct

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to be able to control people

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in the room together with them?

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Or is this like, he worked at it?

Saagar Enjeti (05:17.960)

I think he worked at it.

Lex Fridman (05:19.280)

But also, there is an innate quality.

Saagar Enjeti (05:21.620)

I'm forgetting his name, his lifelong,

Lex Fridman (05:24.280)

Rudolf, the one who flew to Berlin in like 1940.

Saagar Enjeti (05:27.960)

I forget his name, anyway.

Lex Fridman (05:29.320)

So he helped Hitler write Mein Kampf.

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And he was like slavishly devoted to him in prison.

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This is 1925 or something like that.

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And so you read that and you're like,

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well, how does he get this like crank wacko

Saagar Enjeti (05:42.960)

to basically believe he's like the second coming,

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help him write this book?

Saagar Enjeti (05:46.640)

I mean, literally, they live together in the prison cell

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and they wake up every day.

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And as he was composing Mein Kampf

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and because of the Beer Hall Putsch and all that,

Saagar Enjeti (05:54.760)

had this like absolute ability to gather people around him.

Lex Fridman (05:59.000)

I think his greatest skill was,

Saagar Enjeti (06:00.760)

is he was just a very good politician, truly.

Lex Fridman (06:03.080)

I mean, if you look at his ability

Saagar Enjeti (06:05.040)

in order to read coalitional politics

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and then convince exactly the right people

Saagar Enjeti (06:10.360)

in order to follow him.

Lex Fridman (06:12.040)

I think I heard you ask this once

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and I've thought about it a lot,

Lex Fridman (06:14.480)

which is like, who could have stopped Hitler in Germany?

Saagar Enjeti (06:17.440)

It's always like the ever present question.

Lex Fridman (06:19.040)

Of course, like the whole baby Hitler thing.

Saagar Enjeti (06:21.200)

Really the answer is Hindenburg.

Lex Fridman (06:22.640)

Like Hindenburg was the person who could have stopped

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and had the immense standing within the German public.

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The only real like war hero

Saagar Enjeti (06:30.880)

definitely was personally skeptical of fascism and Nazism.

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And didn't like Hitler.

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And didn't like him and he knew he was full of shit.

Lex Fridman (06:38.240)

He was like, yeah, I think this guy is dangerous.

Saagar Enjeti (06:40.160)

I think this guy could do a lot of damage to the Republic.

Lex Fridman (06:43.680)

But he acceded basically to Hitler at the time.

Lex Fridman (06:46.960)

And I think that he was one of the main people

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who could have done something about it.

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And also he was able to convince the generals, the military.

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I mean, that was very interesting.

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And to convince Chamberlain and the other political leaders.

Lex Fridman (07:01.520)

That's something I often think about

Saagar Enjeti (07:04.180)

because we're just reading books about these people.

Lex Fridman (07:06.700)

I think about what like Jeffrey Epstein, for example.

Saagar Enjeti (07:09.040)

Like evil people, not evil,

Lex Fridman (07:12.480)

but people have done evil things.

Saagar Enjeti (07:14.160)

Let's not go to the Dan Carlin thing of what is evil.

Lex Fridman (07:19.720)

People that do evil things,

Saagar Enjeti (07:21.440)

I wonder what they are like in a room

Lex Fridman (07:23.300)

because I know quite a lot of intelligent people

Saagar Enjeti (07:25.800)

that did not see the evil in Jeffrey Epstein

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and spend time with them.

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And were not bothered by it.

Lex Fridman (07:37.040)

In the same sense, Hitler,

Saagar Enjeti (07:40.360)

it seems like he was able to get,

Lex Fridman (07:43.080)

just even before he had power,

Saagar Enjeti (07:45.920)

because people get intoxicated by power and so on.

Lex Fridman (07:48.520)

They want to be close to power.

Lex Fridman (07:49.680)

But even before he had power,

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he was able to convince people.

Lex Fridman (07:53.640)

And it's unclear,

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like is there something that's more than words?

Saagar Enjeti (07:58.880)

It's like the way you,

Lex Fridman (08:01.140)

I mean, people talk, tell stories about like this piercing

Saagar Enjeti (08:04.560)

look and whatever, all that kind of stuff.

Lex Fridman (08:06.760)

I wonder if that's somehow a part of it.

Saagar Enjeti (08:10.240)

Like that has to be the base floor

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of any of these charismatic leaders.

Saagar Enjeti (08:14.600)

You have to be able to, in a room alone,

Lex Fridman (08:17.800)

be able to convince anybody of anything.

Lex Fridman (08:20.280)

So I can tell you from my personal experience,

Lex Fridman (08:23.120)

one of the best educated lessons I got

Saagar Enjeti (08:26.480)

was when I got to meet Trump.

Lex Fridman (08:29.360)

So I interviewed Trump four different times as a journalist,

Saagar Enjeti (08:32.480)

spent like two and a half hours with him in the Oval Office,

Lex Fridman (08:36.320)

not alone, but like me and one person

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and like the press secretary, and that was it.

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So I actually got to observe him.

Lex Fridman (08:42.480)

And as a guy who reads these types of books,

Lex Fridman (08:45.320)

and you think of Trump, obviously most people,

Lex Fridman (08:48.340)

what they see on television, in articles and more,

Lex Fridman (08:51.720)

but being able to observe it like one on one,

Saagar Enjeti (08:53.960)

I was closer to him than I am right now from you.

Lex Fridman (08:57.600)

That was one of the most educational experiences I got

Saagar Enjeti (09:01.540)

because it's like you just said,

Lex Fridman (09:03.140)

the look, the leaning forward,

Saagar Enjeti (09:05.600)

the way he talks, the way he is a master

Lex Fridman (09:10.240)

at taking the question

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and answering exactly which party wants.

Lex Fridman (09:14.040)

And then if you try and follow up,

Saagar Enjeti (09:15.120)

he's like, excuse me, you know, like he knows.

Lex Fridman (09:18.280)

And then whenever you're talking,

Saagar Enjeti (09:19.600)

it's not that he's annoyed about getting interrupted.

Lex Fridman (09:22.240)

If he realizes he's been mirandering

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and then you interrupt him, all good.

Lex Fridman (09:26.040)

But if he's driving home a point,

Saagar Enjeti (09:28.320)

which he has to make sure appears in your transcript

Lex Fridman (09:31.160)

or whatever, it really was fascinating for me to look at.

Lex Fridman (09:36.320)

And what was also crazy with Trump

Lex Fridman (09:39.040)

is I realized how much he was living in the moment.

Lex Fridman (09:41.880)

So when I went to the Oval,

Lex Fridman (09:44.680)

I've read all these biographies and I walk in,

Saagar Enjeti (09:46.880)

I'm like, holy shit, you're like, I'm in the Oval Office.

Lex Fridman (09:50.800)

Were you interviewing him in the Oval Office?

Saagar Enjeti (09:52.280)

In the Oval, every time, I was in the Oval Office.

Lex Fridman (09:53.920)

You scared shitless?

Saagar Enjeti (09:54.760)

Well, I wasn't scared.

Lex Fridman (09:56.600)

I was just, look, it's the Oval Office, right?

Saagar Enjeti (09:59.320)

I mean, I'm this nerd.

Lex Fridman (10:01.480)

He was like this kid, I'm so, I will admit this here.

Saagar Enjeti (10:05.280)

I printed out on my dad's label maker when I was like seven

Lex Fridman (10:08.040)

and I wrote the Oval Office on my bedroom.

Lex Fridman (10:10.000)

So I was a huge nerd, obviously egomaniacal, even from seven.

Lex Fridman (10:14.680)

But so for this, I mean, it was huge, right?

Saagar Enjeti (10:16.760)

I'm like this 25 year old kid.

Lex Fridman (10:18.400)

And I walk in there and I see the couch, right?

Lex Fridman (10:22.160)

And I'm like, oh man, that's Kissinger.

Lex Fridman (10:25.240)

That's where Kissinger and Nixon got on their knees.

Lex Fridman (10:28.120)

And then you see over by the door and you're like,

Lex Fridman (10:29.840)

are the scuff marks still there

Lex Fridman (10:31.200)

from when Eisenhower used to play golf?

Lex Fridman (10:33.040)

You know, this is all running through my mind.

Lex Fridman (10:34.480)

With Trump, none of it was there, none of it, right?

Lex Fridman (10:36.360)

So like, even the desk, I put my phone on the desk

Saagar Enjeti (10:39.520)

to record and I'm like, this is the fucking Resolute desk.

Lex Fridman (10:43.320)

Like, I shouldn't put my phone on this thing, right?

Lex Fridman (10:46.120)

And I'm like HMS Resolute, you know, all the international.

Lex Fridman (10:49.120)

And even for him, he doesn't think about any of it.

Saagar Enjeti (10:51.600)

It was like amazing to me.

Lex Fridman (10:53.440)

Like he had this portrait of Andrew Jackson

Saagar Enjeti (10:55.440)

right next to his, to the, I think from on the fireplace,

Lex Fridman (10:58.320)

like right here on the right.

Lex Fridman (10:59.840)

And the most revealing question was when I was like,

Lex Fridman (11:02.500)

Mr. President, what are people gonna remember you for

Lex Fridman (11:04.440)

in a hundred years?

Lex Fridman (11:05.480)

And he was like, I don't know, like veteran's choice.

Saagar Enjeti (11:09.120)

He like has a list in front of him of like

Lex Fridman (11:11.760)

his accomplishments, which is staff.

Saagar Enjeti (11:14.120)

Yeah, well, I mean, that's what I wanted to know.

Lex Fridman (11:17.080)

And he's like, veteran's choice.

Lex Fridman (11:18.880)

And I remember looking at him being like,

Lex Fridman (11:20.440)

it's not gonna be veteran's choice.

Saagar Enjeti (11:22.480)

I'd be like, I'm like, I'm looking at you, Donald Trump,

Lex Fridman (11:25.600)

the harbinger of something new.

Saagar Enjeti (11:27.840)

We still don't know what the hell it is.

Lex Fridman (11:29.720)

And so I realized with these guys and their charisma

Lex Fridman (11:33.440)

and more is that they don't think about themselves

Lex Fridman (11:35.820)

the way that we think about them.

Lex Fridman (11:37.280)

And that was actually important to understand

Lex Fridman (11:38.960)

because a lot of people are like,

Saagar Enjeti (11:40.360)

Trump is playing all this chess.

Lex Fridman (11:41.720)

I'm like, I assure you he's not.

Saagar Enjeti (11:43.160)

Like he's truly, one time I was interviewing him

Lex Fridman (11:46.320)

and he had like a certificate that he had to sign

Saagar Enjeti (11:48.360)

or something on his desk.

Lex Fridman (11:49.800)

He's like, it was like child almost.

Lex Fridman (11:51.440)

Like he got distracted by, he's like, oh, what's this?

Lex Fridman (11:53.600)

You know, he's just like picking up and I was like,

Saagar Enjeti (11:55.200)

wow, like this, this is the guy.

Lex Fridman (11:57.720)

Like this is what he is.

Saagar Enjeti (11:59.000)

Well, I wonder if there was a different person

Lex Fridman (12:02.200)

because you were recording then offline at a party.

Saagar Enjeti (12:05.800)

I can tell you.

Lex Fridman (12:06.640)

Well, here's the thing though,

Saagar Enjeti (12:07.460)

because that's another part of it.

Lex Fridman (12:09.320)

Because that two hours,

Saagar Enjeti (12:11.280)

I would say like half of that was not on the record.

Lex Fridman (12:13.480)

So like, whenever he's off the record,

Lex Fridman (12:15.360)

he changes completely, right?

Lex Fridman (12:17.960)

I don't wanna like go into too much of it or whatever,

Lex Fridman (12:20.560)

but like he, I mean, he is so mindful

Lex Fridman (12:26.040)

of when that camera is on and when the mic is hot

Saagar Enjeti (12:29.120)

in terms of the language that he uses,

Lex Fridman (12:30.840)

what he's willing to admit,

Lex Fridman (12:32.160)

what he's willing to talk about,

Lex Fridman (12:33.680)

how he's willing to even appear in front of his staff.

Saagar Enjeti (12:37.560)

I think the most revealing thing Trump ever did

Lex Fridman (12:40.160)

was there was this press conference,

Saagar Enjeti (12:41.940)

like right after he lost the,

Lex Fridman (12:43.640)

right after the midterm elections in 2018.

Lex Fridman (12:46.240)

And one of the journalists was like,

Lex Fridman (12:47.560)

Mr. President, thank you for doing this press conference.

Lex Fridman (12:50.360)

And he looks at him and he goes,

Lex Fridman (12:51.640)

it's called earned media, it's worth billions.

Lex Fridman (12:54.160)

And he just like had so much disdain for him

Lex Fridman (12:57.560)

because he's like, I'm not doing this for you.

Saagar Enjeti (12:59.320)

He's like, I'm doing this for me.

Lex Fridman (13:00.840)

So he's really aware of the narrative of the story.

Saagar Enjeti (13:03.280)

I mean, that the people have talked about

Lex Fridman (13:05.040)

that all comes from the tabloid media of the,

Saagar Enjeti (13:08.320)

from New York and so on.

Lex Fridman (13:09.640)

He's a master of that.

Lex Fridman (13:10.840)

But I've also heard stories of just in private,

Lex Fridman (13:14.140)

he's a really, I don't wanna overuse the word charismatic,

Lex Fridman (13:18.140)

but just like, he is a really interesting,

Lex Fridman (13:21.400)

almost like friendly, like a good person.

Saagar Enjeti (13:25.840)

Like, that's what I heard.

Lex Fridman (13:28.040)

I've heard actually surprising the same thing

Saagar Enjeti (13:29.720)

about Hillary Clinton.

Lex Fridman (13:32.320)

And like.

Saagar Enjeti (13:33.160)

That I can't tell you anything about.

Lex Fridman (13:35.020)

But like the way they present themselves

Saagar Enjeti (13:37.720)

is perhaps very different than they are

Lex Fridman (13:40.560)

as human beings and one on one.

Saagar Enjeti (13:42.320)

That's something, maybe that's just like a skill thing.

Lex Fridman (13:46.520)

Maybe the way they present themselves in public

Saagar Enjeti (13:50.680)

is actually their, I mean, almost their real self.

Lex Fridman (13:55.400)

And they're just really good in private,

Saagar Enjeti (13:58.160)

one on one to go into this mode

Lex Fridman (14:00.960)

of just being really intimate in some kind of human way.

Saagar Enjeti (14:03.960)

I think that's part of it.

Lex Fridman (14:04.920)

Because I noticed that with Trump, you know,

Saagar Enjeti (14:06.760)

he's like, it's almost like a tour guide.

Lex Fridman (14:08.720)

It was very like, it's very crazy, right?

Saagar Enjeti (14:11.240)

Cause you're like, you're in the Oval.

Lex Fridman (14:12.400)

I mean, it's his office.

Lex Fridman (14:13.720)

And he's like, do you guys want anything?

Lex Fridman (14:15.680)

And he's like, you want a Diet Coke?

Saagar Enjeti (14:16.920)

Cause he drinks like all this Diet Coke.

Lex Fridman (14:19.200)

You know?

Lex Fridman (14:20.040)

And he's just like, you guys want a Diet Coke, right?

Lex Fridman (14:23.960)

And you're sitting there and you're like,

Saagar Enjeti (14:26.040)

the way he's able to like,

Lex Fridman (14:28.520)

like the last time I interviewed him,

Saagar Enjeti (14:30.200)

he wanted to do it outside.

Lex Fridman (14:33.240)

Because he like, he's studied himself from all angles.

Lex Fridman (14:36.300)

And he knows exactly how he looks on a camera

Lex Fridman (14:38.520)

and with which lighting.

Lex Fridman (14:39.840)

And so we were supposed to interview him on camera

Lex Fridman (14:42.080)

in the Oval Office, which is actually rare.

Saagar Enjeti (14:43.980)

Like you don't usually get that.

Lex Fridman (14:45.640)

And they ended up moving it outside at the last minute.

Lex Fridman (14:48.360)

And he came out and he's like,

Lex Fridman (14:49.400)

I picked this spot for you.

Saagar Enjeti (14:50.240)

He's like, great lighting.

Lex Fridman (14:51.360)

Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti (14:52.200)

I was like, you are your own like lighting director.

Lex Fridman (14:55.240)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (14:56.080)

The president, right?

Lex Fridman (14:56.900)

It's great.

Saagar Enjeti (14:57.740)

It's so funny.

Lex Fridman (14:58.920)

But it's like you said, he's very charismatic

Lex Fridman (15:02.640)

and friendly.

Lex Fridman (15:04.240)

I mean, you wouldn't know.

Saagar Enjeti (15:05.680)

I mean, look, this is what I mean

Lex Fridman (15:07.000)

in terms of the dynamism of these people that gets lost.

Lex Fridman (15:10.720)

And I think even he knows that.

Lex Fridman (15:12.280)

Like, I don't think he would want that side of him.

Saagar Enjeti (15:14.200)

That I see, you know, that you see in those

Lex Fridman (15:16.120)

off the record moments and more in order to come out

Saagar Enjeti (15:18.880)

because he's very keen about

Lex Fridman (15:21.040)

how exactly he presents to the public.

Saagar Enjeti (15:23.360)

It's like, you know, even his presidential portrait,

Lex Fridman (15:25.360)

everybody usually smiles and he refused to smile.

Saagar Enjeti (15:27.760)

He was like, I want to look like Winston Churchill.

Lex Fridman (15:29.980)

You know, like even he knew that.

Lex Fridman (15:31.360)

Do you think he believes that he,

Lex Fridman (15:34.160)

what he kind of implies that he is one of,

Lex Fridman (15:38.520)

if not the greatest president in American history?

Lex Fridman (15:41.960)

Like people kind of laugh at this,

Lex Fridman (15:43.380)

but there's quite, I mean, there's quite a lot of people,

Lex Fridman (15:45.880)

first of all, that make the argument

Saagar Enjeti (15:47.340)

that he's the greatest president in history.

Lex Fridman (15:50.360)

Like I've heard this argument being made.

Lex Fridman (15:53.480)

And I mean, I don't know what the,

Lex Fridman (15:55.160)

first of all, I don't care.

Saagar Enjeti (15:57.280)

Like, you can't make an argument

Lex Fridman (16:01.200)

that anyone is the greatest.

Saagar Enjeti (16:02.680)

That's just, that just, I come from a school

Lex Fridman (16:05.600)

of like being humble and modest and so on.

Saagar Enjeti (16:08.400)

It's like, even Michael, you can't have that conversation.

Lex Fridman (16:11.840)

Okay, so I like that he's humble enough to say

Saagar Enjeti (16:15.680)

like Abraham Lincoln or whatever.

Lex Fridman (16:17.840)

Like, I don't know.

Saagar Enjeti (16:18.680)

He says maybe Lincoln.

Lex Fridman (16:19.880)

Maybe. Remember that.

Saagar Enjeti (16:20.800)

Maybe. He says maybe Lincoln.

Lex Fridman (16:22.600)

Do you think he actually believes that?

Saagar Enjeti (16:24.920)

Or is that something he understands will create news

Lex Fridman (16:29.720)

and also perhaps more importantly,

Lex Fridman (16:32.600)

piss off a large number of people?

Lex Fridman (16:35.600)

Is he almost like a musician masterfully playing

Lex Fridman (16:38.840)

the emotions of the public?

Lex Fridman (16:41.280)

Or does he, or, and does he believe

Saagar Enjeti (16:46.320)

when he looks in the mirror,

Lex Fridman (16:47.260)

I'm one of the greatest men in history?

Saagar Enjeti (16:49.880)

Combination of all three.

Lex Fridman (16:51.600)

I do think he believes it.

Lex Fridman (16:52.820)

And for the reason why is I don't think he knows

Lex Fridman (16:54.680)

that much about US history.

Saagar Enjeti (16:55.880)

I really mean that.

Lex Fridman (16:56.960)

Like, and that's what I meant whenever I was in there

Lex Fridman (16:58.720)

and I realized he was just living in the moment.

Lex Fridman (17:01.180)

I don't think he knew all that much about why.

Lex Fridman (17:03.720)

I mean, this is why he was elected in many ways, right?

Lex Fridman (17:06.320)

So I'm not saying this is an orbit,

Saagar Enjeti (17:08.280)

like I'm not making a judgment on this.

Lex Fridman (17:10.600)

I'm just saying, I do think in his mind,

Saagar Enjeti (17:12.920)

he does think he was one of the best presidents

Lex Fridman (17:15.720)

in American history largely because,

Lex Fridman (17:17.680)

and I encountered this with a lot of people who work for him,

Lex Fridman (17:19.480)

which is that they didn't really know all that much

Saagar Enjeti (17:21.760)

kind of about what came before and all that.

Lex Fridman (17:25.000)

And it's not necessarily to hold it against them

Saagar Enjeti (17:27.280)

because for in many ways,

Lex Fridman (17:28.600)

that's what they were elected to do

Saagar Enjeti (17:30.480)

or elected to be in many ways.

Lex Fridman (17:32.760)

It's an interesting question whether knowing history,

Saagar Enjeti (17:35.440)

being a student of history is productive

Lex Fridman (17:39.480)

or counterproductive.

Saagar Enjeti (17:40.400)

I tend to assume I really respect people

Lex Fridman (17:43.440)

who are deeply like well read in history,

Saagar Enjeti (17:46.520)

like presidents that are almost like history nerds.

Lex Fridman (17:51.200)

I admire that.

Lex Fridman (17:53.160)

But maybe that gets in the way of governance.

Lex Fridman (17:56.920)

I don't know.

Saagar Enjeti (17:57.760)

It's not, I'm just sort of playing devil's advocate

Lex Fridman (18:01.080)

to my own beliefs,

Lex Fridman (18:03.000)

but it's possible that focusing on the moment

Lex Fridman (18:05.480)

and the issues and letting history,

Saagar Enjeti (18:07.680)

it's like first principles thinking,

Lex Fridman (18:09.120)

forget the lessons of the past

Lex Fridman (18:12.160)

and just focus on common sense reasoning

Lex Fridman (18:15.280)

through the problems of today.

Saagar Enjeti (18:16.800)

Yeah, it's really hard question.

Lex Fridman (18:18.360)

In terms of the modern era,

Saagar Enjeti (18:19.560)

I mean, Obama was a student of history.

Lex Fridman (18:21.720)

Like he used to have presidential biographers

Lex Fridman (18:25.040)

and people over and I mean, famously,

Lex Fridman (18:27.000)

like Robert de Caro,

Saagar Enjeti (18:27.920)

one of my favorite presidential biographers,

Lex Fridman (18:29.720)

he was invited to have dinner with Obama

Lex Fridman (18:32.240)

and Obama would like pepper some of his,

Lex Fridman (18:35.000)

it was interesting because he'd try and justify

Saagar Enjeti (18:36.840)

some of the things he didn't do by being like,

Lex Fridman (18:38.720)

well, if you look at what they had to do

Lex Fridman (18:40.600)

and what I have to deal with,

Lex Fridman (18:42.160)

mine's much harder.

Lex Fridman (18:43.280)

So in that way, I was a little pissed off

Lex Fridman (18:44.960)

because I'd be like, no, that actually like,

Saagar Enjeti (18:47.520)

you're comparing apples to oranges and all that.

Lex Fridman (18:50.600)

But if you look at Roosevelt,

Saagar Enjeti (18:53.040)

Teddy Roosevelt in particular,

Lex Fridman (18:54.640)

this was, I mean, a voracious reader,

Saagar Enjeti (18:57.480)

not of just American history, all history.

Lex Fridman (18:59.560)

That guy's just such a badass.

Saagar Enjeti (19:01.600)

Incredible.

Lex Fridman (19:03.400)

The only president who willed himself to greatness.

Saagar Enjeti (19:07.040)

That's like the amazing thing about him.

Lex Fridman (19:08.360)

He wasn't tested by a crisis, right?

Saagar Enjeti (19:10.320)

Like it wasn't, no, he didn't have a civil war.

Lex Fridman (19:12.640)

He didn't have World War II.

Saagar Enjeti (19:13.480)

He didn't have to found the country, literally,

Lex Fridman (19:15.080)

or like, didn't have to stave off that,

Saagar Enjeti (19:17.680)

or he didn't buy Louisiana Purchase, like all that.

Lex Fridman (19:20.720)

He literally came into a pretty static country

Lex Fridman (19:25.040)

and he could have just governed with,

Lex Fridman (19:27.760)

I mean, he was, the person who came before him

Saagar Enjeti (19:30.040)

was assassinated, like he easily could have coasted,

Lex Fridman (19:33.560)

but he literally willed the country into something more.

Lex Fridman (19:37.600)

And that's always why I've focused a lot on him too,

Lex Fridman (19:40.560)

because I'm like, that, in many ways,

Saagar Enjeti (19:42.520)

I wouldn't say it's easy to be great during crisis.

Lex Fridman (19:44.600)

I mean, like look at Trump, right?

Lex Fridman (19:46.440)

But it can bring out the best within you,

Lex Fridman (19:49.360)

but it's a whole other level

Saagar Enjeti (19:51.120)

to bring out the best within yourself

Lex Fridman (19:53.120)

just for the sake of doing it.

Saagar Enjeti (19:54.840)

That's, I think is really interesting.

Lex Fridman (19:56.360)

The speeches were amazing.

Saagar Enjeti (19:58.200)

I'm also a sucker for great speeches

Lex Fridman (1:00:02.300)

They don't have like zero patience for it,

Saagar Enjeti (1:00:05.140)

which is like, maybe in that case is deserved.

Lex Fridman (1:00:09.340)

But everything else, you really like have empathy.

Saagar Enjeti (1:00:14.020)

Like consider the fact, you have,

Lex Fridman (1:00:16.260)

okay, this is weird to say,

Lex Fridman (1:00:18.140)

but I feel like you have to consider

Lex Fridman (1:00:22.140)

that the earth may be flat for like one minute.

Saagar Enjeti (1:00:26.140)

Like you have to be empathetic.

Lex Fridman (1:00:27.700)

You have to be open minded.

Saagar Enjeti (1:00:29.380)

I don't see a lot of that

Lex Fridman (1:00:30.260)

through our cultural taste makers and more.

Lex Fridman (1:00:32.220)

And that really is what concerns me the most.

Lex Fridman (1:00:35.540)

Cause it's just another manifestation

Saagar Enjeti (1:00:37.020)

of all of our problems.

Lex Fridman (1:00:38.140)

Is that we have this completely bifurcating economy,

Saagar Enjeti (1:00:41.980)

bifurcating culture, literally,

Lex Fridman (1:00:44.100)

in terms of we have the middle of the country

Lex Fridman (1:00:46.860)

and then we have the coast.

Lex Fridman (1:00:47.940)

And in terms of the population, it's almost 50, 50.

Lex Fridman (1:00:51.340)

And with increasing mega cities and urban culture,

Lex Fridman (1:00:55.220)

like urban monoculture of LA, New York and Chicago

Lex Fridman (1:00:58.820)

and DC and Boston and Austin,

Lex Fridman (1:01:01.380)

relative to how an entire other group

Saagar Enjeti (1:01:04.100)

of Americans live their lives,

Lex Fridman (1:01:05.980)

or even the people within them

Saagar Enjeti (1:01:07.380)

who aren't rich and upwardly mobile,

Lex Fridman (1:01:09.140)

how they live their lives is just completely separating.

Lex Fridman (1:01:12.060)

And all of our language and communication

Lex Fridman (1:01:14.820)

in mass media and more is to the top.

Lex Fridman (1:01:16.940)

And then everybody else is forgotten.

Lex Fridman (1:01:18.660)

Do you think when you dig to the core,

Lex Fridman (1:01:21.460)

there is a big gap between left and right?

Lex Fridman (1:01:25.500)

Is that division that's perceived currently real

Lex Fridman (1:01:30.020)

or are most people center left and center right?

Lex Fridman (1:01:33.420)

It's so interesting

Saagar Enjeti (1:01:34.260)

because that's such a loaded term, center left.

Lex Fridman (1:01:37.940)

What does that mean?

Saagar Enjeti (1:01:39.060)

Like to you, I think the way you're thinking of it is,

Lex Fridman (1:01:42.900)

I'm not like a, well, even this,

Saagar Enjeti (1:01:46.140)

like I'm not a radical socialist,

Lex Fridman (1:01:49.260)

but I'm marginally left on cultural issues

Lex Fridman (1:01:54.660)

and economic issues.

Lex Fridman (1:01:56.500)

This is how we've traditionally understood things.

Lex Fridman (1:01:59.100)

And then in popular discourse, like center right,

Lex Fridman (1:02:02.020)

like what does it mean to be center right?

Saagar Enjeti (1:02:03.300)

Like I am marginally right on social issues

Lex Fridman (1:02:08.300)

and marginally right on economic issues.

Lex Fridman (1:02:10.780)

But that's just not, like if you look at survey data,

Lex Fridman (1:02:14.500)

for example, like stimulus checks,

Saagar Enjeti (1:02:18.180)

people who are against stimulus checks are conservative.

Lex Fridman (1:02:20.700)

Well, 80% of the population is for a stimulus check.

Lex Fridman (1:02:23.660)

So that means a sizable number of Republicans

Lex Fridman (1:02:26.180)

are for stimulus checks.

Saagar Enjeti (1:02:27.540)

Same thing happens on like a wealth tax.

Lex Fridman (1:02:30.780)

The same thing happens on, okay, Florida voted for Trump,

Saagar Enjeti (1:02:35.260)

3.1%, more than Barack Obama, 2008,

Lex Fridman (1:02:39.460)

on the same day passes a $15 minimum wage at 67%.

Lex Fridman (1:02:44.020)

So what's going on?

Lex Fridman (1:02:45.240)

So that's why I.

Lex Fridman (1:02:46.080)

What is going on?

Lex Fridman (1:02:47.780)

Oh, that's my entire career.

Lex Fridman (1:02:50.420)

But it seems like, so that's fascinating.

Lex Fridman (1:02:53.620)

Conversation is different than the policies.

Saagar Enjeti (1:02:57.700)

Well, it's different than reality.

Lex Fridman (1:02:59.140)

That's what I would say,

Saagar Enjeti (1:02:59.980)

which is that the way we have to understand

Lex Fridman (1:03:02.260)

American politics today, it didn't always

Saagar Enjeti (1:03:05.460)

used to be this way, is it's almost entirely long.

Lex Fridman (1:03:09.540)

Basic, I would say the main divider is,

Saagar Enjeti (1:03:12.780)

because even when you talk about class,

Lex Fridman (1:03:14.140)

this misses it in terms of socioeconomics,

Saagar Enjeti (1:03:16.480)

it's around culture, which is that it's basically,

Lex Fridman (1:03:20.980)

if you went to a four year degree granting institution,

Saagar Enjeti (1:03:24.200)

you are part of one culture.

Lex Fridman (1:03:25.900)

If you didn't, you're part of another.

Saagar Enjeti (1:03:27.900)

I don't wanna erase the 20% or whatever of people

Lex Fridman (1:03:31.140)

who did go to a college degree who are Republicans

Saagar Enjeti (1:03:33.540)

or vice versa, et cetera, but I'm saying on average,

Lex Fridman (1:03:37.060)

in terms of the median way that you feel,

Saagar Enjeti (1:03:39.880)

we're basically bifurcating along those lines.

Lex Fridman (1:03:43.060)

And because people get upset, be like,

Saagar Enjeti (1:03:44.660)

oh, well, there are rich people who vote for Trump.

Lex Fridman (1:03:47.280)

And I'm like, yeah, but you know who they are?

Saagar Enjeti (1:03:50.500)

They're like plumbers or something.

Lex Fridman (1:03:52.700)

They're people who make $100,000 a year,

Lex Fridman (1:03:55.120)

but they didn't go to a four year college degree

Lex Fridman (1:03:57.140)

and they might live who are in a place

Saagar Enjeti (1:04:00.380)

which is not an urban metro area.

Lex Fridman (1:04:02.420)

And then at the same time, you have like a Vox writer

Saagar Enjeti (1:04:05.700)

who makes like 30 grand,

Lex Fridman (1:04:08.020)

but they have a lot more cultural power

Saagar Enjeti (1:04:10.380)

than like the plumber.

Lex Fridman (1:04:11.700)

So you have to think about where exactly that line is.

Lex Fridman (1:04:15.100)

And I think in general, that's the way that we're trending.

Lex Fridman (1:04:18.460)

So that's why when I say like, what's going on,

Lex Fridman (1:04:21.220)

are we divided?

Lex Fridman (1:04:22.060)

Yeah, like, but it's not left and right.

Saagar Enjeti (1:04:24.520)

I mean, like, and that's why I hate these labels.

Lex Fridman (1:04:26.740)

So it's more just red and blue like teams.

Saagar Enjeti (1:04:29.340)

They're arbitrary teams.

Lex Fridman (1:04:31.620)

So how arbitrary are these teams,

Saagar Enjeti (1:04:33.660)

I guess is another.

Lex Fridman (1:04:34.500)

Completely arbitrary.

Saagar Enjeti (1:04:35.700)

So, well, you kind of imply that there's,

Lex Fridman (1:04:37.780)

I don't know if you're sort of in post analyzing the patterns

Saagar Enjeti (1:04:41.580)

because it seems like there's a network effects

Lex Fridman (1:04:45.220)

of like, you just pick the team red or blue

Lex Fridman (1:04:48.420)

and it might have to do with college.

Lex Fridman (1:04:50.240)

You might have to do all of those things,

Lex Fridman (1:04:51.620)

but like, it seems like it's more about

Lex Fridman (1:04:56.000)

just the people around you.

Saagar Enjeti (1:04:58.160)

Correct.

Lex Fridman (1:04:59.000)

So less than whether you went to college or not.

Saagar Enjeti (1:05:01.940)

I mean, it's almost like, seems like,

Lex Fridman (1:05:04.100)

it's almost like a weird, like network effects that are hard.

Saagar Enjeti (1:05:08.380)

There's certain strong patterns you're identifying,

Lex Fridman (1:05:11.540)

but I don't know.

Saagar Enjeti (1:05:13.120)

It's sad to think that it might be just teams

Lex Fridman (1:05:15.860)

that have nothing to do with what you actually believe.

Saagar Enjeti (1:05:18.780)

Well, it is, Lex.

Lex Fridman (1:05:20.060)

Look, I mean, I don't want to believe that,

Lex Fridman (1:05:22.740)

but the data points me to this, which especially 2020,

Lex Fridman (1:05:25.860)

I'm one of the people chief among them.

Saagar Enjeti (1:05:28.080)

I will own up to it here.

Lex Fridman (1:05:29.380)

I was totally wrong about why Trump was elected in 2016.

Saagar Enjeti (1:05:33.140)

I believed and based a lot of my public commentary beliefs

Lex Fridman (1:05:36.780)

on this, Trump was elected because of a rejection

Saagar Enjeti (1:05:40.020)

of Hillary Clinton neoliberalism on the back

Lex Fridman (1:05:43.380)

of a pro worker message, which was anti immigration.

Saagar Enjeti (1:05:48.500)

It was its pillar, but alongside of it was a rejection

Lex Fridman (1:05:51.880)

of free trade with China and generally

Saagar Enjeti (1:05:56.060)

of the political correctness and globalism,

Lex Fridman (1:05:58.820)

which has been come in through the uniparty

Lex Fridman (1:06:02.300)

and same thing here with the military industrial complex

Lex Fridman (1:06:05.580)

and endless war, he rejected all of that.

Lex Fridman (1:06:08.580)

Wait, what's wrong with that prediction?

Lex Fridman (1:06:10.460)

It's wrong, man.

Lex Fridman (1:06:11.300)

And the reason I know this is that it sounds right.

Lex Fridman (1:06:14.180)

I wish it, I honestly wish it was true,

Lex Fridman (1:06:16.740)

but here's the truth.

Lex Fridman (1:06:17.780)

Trump actually governed largely as a neoliberal Republican

Saagar Enjeti (1:06:22.480)

who was meaner online and who departed from orthodoxy

Lex Fridman (1:06:26.580)

in some very important ways.

Saagar Enjeti (1:06:27.940)

Don't get me wrong.

Lex Fridman (1:06:28.780)

I will always support the trade war with China.

Saagar Enjeti (1:06:31.380)

I will always support not expanding the wars

Lex Fridman (1:06:33.900)

in Afghanistan and in Iraq.

Saagar Enjeti (1:06:35.580)

I will support him moving the Overton window

Lex Fridman (1:06:38.260)

on a million different things and revealing once

Lex Fridman (1:06:40.660)

and for all that GOP voters don't care

Lex Fridman (1:06:42.780)

about economic orthodoxy necessarily.

Lex Fridman (1:06:45.620)

But here's what they do care about.

Lex Fridman (1:06:47.440)

Trump got more votes in 2020 than he did in 2016,

Saagar Enjeti (1:06:50.940)

despite not delivering largely for all the Trump people

Lex Fridman (1:06:54.900)

out there on that agenda.

Saagar Enjeti (1:06:56.740)

He wasn't more pro union, but he won more union votes.

Lex Fridman (1:06:59.740)

He wasn't necessarily more pro worker,

Lex Fridman (1:07:02.560)

but he actually won more votes in Ohio than he did in 2016.

Lex Fridman (1:07:07.020)

And he won more Hispanic votes than despite being

Saagar Enjeti (1:07:10.840)

all the immigration rhetoric, et cetera.

Lex Fridman (1:07:13.840)

Here's why, it's about the culture,

Saagar Enjeti (1:07:16.200)

which is that the culture war is so hot

Lex Fridman (1:07:19.460)

that negative partisanship is at such high levels.

Saagar Enjeti (1:07:22.940)

All of the vote is geared upon what the other guy

Lex Fridman (1:07:26.040)

might do in office.

Lex Fridman (1:07:26.960)

And there's a poll actually just came out

Lex Fridman (1:07:28.460)

by Echelon Insights.

Saagar Enjeti (1:07:29.700)

Crystal and I were talking about it on Rising,

Lex Fridman (1:07:31.760)

that number one concern amongst Democratic voters

Saagar Enjeti (1:07:34.900)

is Trump voters, number one concern.

Lex Fridman (1:07:37.780)

Not issues like Trump voters.

Lex Fridman (1:07:41.340)

And number two is white supremacy.

Lex Fridman (1:07:43.380)

And so like, which is basically code for Trump voters.

Lex Fridman (1:07:47.060)

And is the same true for the other side?

Lex Fridman (1:07:48.940)

Also on the right, the number one concern

Saagar Enjeti (1:07:50.940)

is illegal immigration.

Lex Fridman (1:07:52.380)

And number, I think, three or four or whatever is Antifa,

Saagar Enjeti (1:07:56.780)

which is code for Democrats.

Lex Fridman (1:07:58.620)

At least on the right is a policy kind of thing.

Saagar Enjeti (1:08:00.860)

Well, yeah, it's funny.

Lex Fridman (1:08:01.980)

I saw Ben Shapiro was talking about this.

Lex Fridman (1:08:03.800)

But the reason why I would functionally say it's the same

Lex Fridman (1:08:06.720)

is because, I mean, you can believe whether it's true or not.

Saagar Enjeti (1:08:10.260)

I think it actually largely is true.

Lex Fridman (1:08:11.400)

But a lot of GOP voters feel like a lot of illegal

Saagar Enjeti (1:08:15.060)

immigration is code for people who are coming in,

Lex Fridman (1:08:17.540)

who are gonna be legalized and are gonna go vote Democrat.

Saagar Enjeti (1:08:19.860)

Like, I can just explain it from their point of view.

Lex Fridman (1:08:22.740)

So like, what does that actually mean?

Saagar Enjeti (1:08:25.220)

Each other, like each other,

Lex Fridman (1:08:27.300)

which is that the number one concern is the other person.

Lex Fridman (1:08:30.820)

So negative partisanship has never been higher.

Lex Fridman (1:08:33.580)

And I think people who had my thesis

Saagar Enjeti (1:08:36.260)

in terms of why Trump was elected in 2016,

Lex Fridman (1:08:38.880)

you have to grapple with this.

Lex Fridman (1:08:39.780)

Like, how did he win 10 million more votes?

Lex Fridman (1:08:43.080)

He came 44,000 votes away from winning the presidency

Saagar Enjeti (1:08:45.640)

across three states.

Lex Fridman (1:08:46.860)

Like, I don't, none of our popular discourse reflects

Saagar Enjeti (1:08:50.220)

that very stark reality.

Lex Fridman (1:08:51.860)

And I think so much of it is people really hate liberals.

Saagar Enjeti (1:08:57.980)

Like, they just really hate them.

Lex Fridman (1:08:59.740)

And I was driving through rural Nevada before the election.

Lex Fridman (1:09:04.060)

And I was like, literally in the middle of nowhere.

Lex Fridman (1:09:06.380)

And there was this massive sign

Saagar Enjeti (1:09:08.540)

this guy had out in front of his house.

Lex Fridman (1:09:10.660)

And it just said, Trump, colon, fuck your feelings.

Lex Fridman (1:09:14.380)

And I was like, that's it.

Lex Fridman (1:09:16.240)

That is why people voted for Trump.

Lex Fridman (1:09:18.620)

And I don't want to denigrate it because they truly feel

Lex Fridman (1:09:21.500)

they have no cultural power in America,

Saagar Enjeti (1:09:24.500)

except to raise the middle finger to the elite class

Lex Fridman (1:09:28.440)

by pressing the button for Trump.

Saagar Enjeti (1:09:30.540)

I get that.

Lex Fridman (1:09:31.380)

That's actually a totally rational way to vote.

Saagar Enjeti (1:09:35.020)

It's not the way I wish we did vote,

Lex Fridman (1:09:37.060)

but like, you know, that's not my place to say.

Lex Fridman (1:09:40.140)

So this is interesting.

Lex Fridman (1:09:41.500)

If you could just psychoanalyze,

Saagar Enjeti (1:09:43.260)

I'm again, probably naive about this,

Lex Fridman (1:09:46.620)

but I'm really bothered by the hatred of liberals.

Saagar Enjeti (1:09:52.580)

It's this amorphous monster that's mocked.

Lex Fridman (1:09:57.600)

It's like the Shapiro liberal tears.

Lex Fridman (1:10:00.980)

And I'm also really bothered by

Lex Fridman (1:10:05.100)

probably more of my colleagues and friends,

Saagar Enjeti (1:10:07.860)

the hatred of Trump.

Lex Fridman (1:10:09.420)

Yeah, the Trump and white supremacists.

Lex Fridman (1:10:15.300)

So apparently there's 70 million white supremacists,

Lex Fridman (1:10:19.580)

75 million, sorry.

Saagar Enjeti (1:10:21.340)

There's millions of white supremacists.

Lex Fridman (1:10:25.260)

And apparently whatever liberal is,

Saagar Enjeti (1:10:27.600)

I mean, literally liberal has become

Lex Fridman (1:10:31.860)

equivalent to white supremacists

Saagar Enjeti (1:10:33.620)

in the power of negativity it arouses.

Lex Fridman (1:10:36.620)

I don't even know what those,

Saagar Enjeti (1:10:38.020)

I mean, honestly, they've become swears essentially.

Lex Fridman (1:10:42.060)

Is that, I mean, how do we get out of this?

Saagar Enjeti (1:10:46.180)

Because that's why I just don't even say anything

Lex Fridman (1:10:49.860)

about politics online.

Lex Fridman (1:10:50.960)

Cause it's like, really?

Lex Fridman (1:10:53.260)

Like you can't, here's what happens.

Saagar Enjeti (1:10:58.720)

Anything you say that's like thoughtful,

Lex Fridman (1:11:01.100)

like, hmm, I wonder, immigration, something.

Saagar Enjeti (1:11:05.300)

I wonder like why we have these many,

Lex Fridman (1:11:11.540)

we allow these many immigrants in

Saagar Enjeti (1:11:13.220)

or some version of the like thinking through

Lex Fridman (1:11:16.140)

these difficult policies and so on.

Saagar Enjeti (1:11:18.460)

They immediately tried to find like a single word

Lex Fridman (1:11:22.020)

in something you say that can put you in a bin

Saagar Enjeti (1:11:24.820)

of liberal or white supremacists

Lex Fridman (1:11:28.060)

and then hammer you to death

Saagar Enjeti (1:11:30.180)

by saying you're one of the two.

Lex Fridman (1:11:32.340)

And then everybody just piles on happily

Saagar Enjeti (1:11:35.000)

that we finally nailed this white supremacist or liberal.

Lex Fridman (1:11:39.260)

And that, is this some kind of weird

Saagar Enjeti (1:11:42.540)

like feature of online communication

Lex Fridman (1:11:44.500)

that we've just stumbled upon?

Saagar Enjeti (1:11:45.920)

Is there a way or is it possible to argue

Lex Fridman (1:11:48.700)

that this is like a feature, not a bug?

Lex Fridman (1:11:51.020)

Like, this is a good thing?

Lex Fridman (1:11:53.360)

Yeah, well, look, I just think it's a reflection

Saagar Enjeti (1:11:55.340)

of who we are.

Lex Fridman (1:11:56.180)

People like to blame social media.

Saagar Enjeti (1:11:57.500)

I think we're just incredibly divided right now.

Lex Fridman (1:11:59.220)

I think we've been divided like this for the last 20 years.

Lex Fridman (1:12:02.140)

And I think that, the reason I focus almost 99%

Lex Fridman (1:12:06.140)

of my public commentary on economics

Saagar Enjeti (1:12:08.300)

is because you asked an important question at the top.

Lex Fridman (1:12:10.860)

How do we fix this?

Lex Fridman (1:12:12.780)

What did I say about the stimulus checks?

Lex Fridman (1:12:14.820)

Stimulus checks have 80% approval rating.

Lex Fridman (1:12:16.980)

So that's the type of thing.

Lex Fridman (1:12:18.140)

If I was Joe Biden and I wanted to actually

Saagar Enjeti (1:12:20.060)

heal this country, that's the very first thing

Lex Fridman (1:12:22.020)

I would have done when I came into office.

Saagar Enjeti (1:12:23.860)

Same thing on when you look at anything

Lex Fridman (1:12:26.820)

that's gonna increase wages.

Saagar Enjeti (1:12:28.940)

I said on the show, I was like, look,

Lex Fridman (1:12:30.940)

I think Joe Biden will have an 80% approval rating

Saagar Enjeti (1:12:32.980)

if he does two things.

Lex Fridman (1:12:34.180)

If he gives every American a $2,000 stimulus check

Lex Fridman (1:12:37.580)

and gives everybody who wants a vaccine a vaccine.

Lex Fridman (1:12:40.080)

That's it.

Saagar Enjeti (1:12:40.920)

It's pretty simple.

Lex Fridman (1:12:41.740)

Cause here's the thing.

Saagar Enjeti (1:12:43.620)

I don't really like Greg Abbott that much.

Lex Fridman (1:12:45.100)

We have like very different politics.

Saagar Enjeti (1:12:46.420)

I'm from Texas, but my parents got vaccinated

Lex Fridman (1:12:49.180)

really quickly.

Saagar Enjeti (1:12:50.280)

That means something to me.

Lex Fridman (1:12:51.620)

I'm like, listen, I don't really care

Saagar Enjeti (1:12:54.180)

about a lot of the other stuff.

Lex Fridman (1:12:55.780)

He got my family vaccinated.

Saagar Enjeti (1:12:58.200)

Like that, well, I will forever remember that.

Lex Fridman (1:13:02.380)

And that's how we will remember the checks.

Saagar Enjeti (1:13:04.940)

This is a part of a reason why Trump

Lex Fridman (1:13:06.580)

almost won the election and why,

Saagar Enjeti (1:13:08.380)

if the Republicans had been smart enough

Lex Fridman (1:13:10.380)

to give him another round of checks,

Saagar Enjeti (1:13:13.260)

100% would have won.

Lex Fridman (1:13:14.740)

Which is that people were like, look,

Saagar Enjeti (1:13:17.100)

I don't really like Trump, but I got a check

Lex Fridman (1:13:19.520)

with his name on it.

Lex Fridman (1:13:20.760)

And that meant something to me and my family.

Lex Fridman (1:13:24.260)

I'm not saying for all the libertarians out there

Saagar Enjeti (1:13:26.900)

that they should go and like endlessly spend money

Lex Fridman (1:13:29.780)

and buy votes.

Lex Fridman (1:13:31.020)

What I am saying is lean into the majoritarian positions

Lex Fridman (1:13:36.500)

without adding your culture war bullshit on top of it.

Lex Fridman (1:13:40.040)

So for example, what's the number one concern

Lex Fridman (1:13:42.660)

that AOC says after the first round of checks got out?

Saagar Enjeti (1:13:45.340)

Oh, the checks didn't go to illegal immigrants.

Lex Fridman (1:13:47.460)

I'm like, are you out of your fucking mind?

Saagar Enjeti (1:13:49.640)

Like this is the most popular policy America

Lex Fridman (1:13:51.860)

has probably done in 50 years,

Saagar Enjeti (1:13:55.220)

since like Medicare and you're ruining it.

Lex Fridman (1:14:00.220)

And then on the right is the same thing,

Saagar Enjeti (1:14:02.020)

which is that they'll be like,

Lex Fridman (1:14:03.540)

these checks are going to like, you know,

Saagar Enjeti (1:14:05.940)

low level blah, blah, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:14:07.980)

people who are lazy and don't work.

Saagar Enjeti (1:14:10.020)

I'm like, oh, there you go, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:14:11.140)

like you're just playing a caricature of what you are.

Saagar Enjeti (1:14:14.340)

Like if you lean into those issues

Lex Fridman (1:14:16.340)

and you got to do it clean,

Saagar Enjeti (1:14:17.700)

this is what everybody hates about DC,

Lex Fridman (1:14:19.620)

which is that Biden right now is doing the $1,400 checks,

Lex Fridman (1:14:23.260)

but he's looping it in with his COVID relief bill

Lex Fridman (1:14:26.140)

and all that.

Saagar Enjeti (1:14:26.980)

That's his prerogative, that's the Democrats prerogative.

Lex Fridman (1:14:28.740)

They won the election, that's fine.

Lex Fridman (1:14:30.460)

But I'll tell you what I would have done if I was him,

Lex Fridman (1:14:33.180)

I would have come in and I would have said,

Saagar Enjeti (1:14:34.900)

there's five United States senators

Lex Fridman (1:14:36.340)

who are on the record, Republicans,

Saagar Enjeti (1:14:37.860)

who said they'll vote for a $2,000 check.

Lex Fridman (1:14:39.860)

And I would put that on the floor of the United States Senate

Saagar Enjeti (1:14:42.820)

on my, you know, first or the first day possible.

Lex Fridman (1:14:46.220)

And I would have passed it

Lex Fridman (1:14:47.300)

and I would have forced those Republican senators

Lex Fridman (1:14:49.620)

to live up to that, vote for this bill,

Saagar Enjeti (1:14:52.260)

come to the Oval Office for a signing

Lex Fridman (1:14:54.740)

so that the very first thing of my presidency

Saagar Enjeti (1:14:57.300)

was to say, I'm giving you all this relief check,

Lex Fridman (1:15:00.700)

this long national nightmare is over.

Saagar Enjeti (1:15:03.060)

Take this money, do with it what you need.

Lex Fridman (1:15:05.340)

We've all suffered together.

Saagar Enjeti (1:15:07.460)

The thing about Biden is he has a portrait of FDR

Lex Fridman (1:15:10.580)

and is in the Oval, which kind of bothers me

Saagar Enjeti (1:15:13.100)

because he thinks of himself as an FDR like figure.

Lex Fridman (1:15:16.020)

But this is, you have to understand the majesty of FDR.

Saagar Enjeti (1:15:20.040)

We're talking about a person

Lex Fridman (1:15:21.300)

who passed a piece of legislation

Saagar Enjeti (1:15:23.180)

five days after he became president.

Lex Fridman (1:15:25.340)

And he passed 15 transformative pieces of legislation

Saagar Enjeti (1:15:29.220)

in the first 100 days.

Lex Fridman (1:15:30.860)

We're on day like 34, 35, and nothing has passed.

Saagar Enjeti (1:15:35.460)

The reconciliation bill will eventually become law,

Lex Fridman (1:15:37.660)

but it will become law with no Republican votes.

Lex Fridman (1:15:40.100)

And again, that's fine.

Lex Fridman (1:15:42.340)

But it's not fulfilling that legacy

Lex Fridman (1:15:44.900)

and the urgency of the action.

Lex Fridman (1:15:47.240)

And the mandate, which I believe that history has handed,

Lex Fridman (1:15:50.340)

it handed it to Trump and he fucked it up, right?

Lex Fridman (1:15:52.980)

He totally screwed it up.

Saagar Enjeti (1:15:54.040)

He could have remade America

Lex Fridman (1:15:55.340)

and made us into the greatest country ever

Saagar Enjeti (1:15:57.420)

coming out on the other side of this.

Lex Fridman (1:15:58.900)

He decided not to do that.

Saagar Enjeti (1:16:01.020)

I think Biden was again handed that like a scepter almost.

Lex Fridman (1:16:04.100)

It's like all you have to do,

Saagar Enjeti (1:16:05.020)

all America wants is for you to raise it up high,

Lex Fridman (1:16:07.780)

but he's keeping it within the realm of traditional politics.

Saagar Enjeti (1:16:10.540)

I think it's a huge mistake.

Lex Fridman (1:16:11.620)

Why, so this is, everything he's saying

Saagar Enjeti (1:16:13.540)

is makes perfect sense, like take, okay.

Lex Fridman (1:16:16.280)

It's like, it's like, again, if the aliens showed up,

Saagar Enjeti (1:16:19.420)

it's like the obvious thing to do is like,

Lex Fridman (1:16:22.500)

what's the popular thing?

Saagar Enjeti (1:16:25.100)

Like 80% of Americans support this.

Lex Fridman (1:16:28.140)

Like do that clean.

Saagar Enjeti (1:16:31.860)

Also do it like with like grace,

Lex Fridman (1:16:36.380)

where you're able to bring people together,

Saagar Enjeti (1:16:38.620)

not like in a political way,

Lex Fridman (1:16:40.740)

but like obvious common sense way.

Saagar Enjeti (1:16:44.620)

Like just people, the Republicans and Democrats

Lex Fridman (1:16:48.580)

just bring them together on a policy and like bold,

Saagar Enjeti (1:16:50.900)

just hammer it without the dirt, without the mess,

Lex Fridman (1:16:54.240)

whatever, try to compromise.

Saagar Enjeti (1:16:56.440)

Just the yellow have a good Twitter account,

Lex Fridman (1:17:00.020)

like loud, very clear.

Saagar Enjeti (1:17:03.300)

We're gonna give a $2,000 or a stimulus check.

Lex Fridman (1:17:06.740)

Anyone who wants a vaccine gets a vaccine at scale.

Lex Fridman (1:17:11.060)

What make America, let's make America great again

Lex Fridman (1:17:14.980)

by manufacturing.

Saagar Enjeti (1:17:16.620)

Like we are manufacturing most of the world's vaccine

Lex Fridman (1:17:20.300)

because we're bad motherfuckers.

Lex Fridman (1:17:22.180)

And without maybe with more eloquence than that

Lex Fridman (1:17:26.100)

and just do that.

Lex Fridman (1:17:27.780)

Why haven't we seen that for many, for several presidencies?

Lex Fridman (1:17:32.780)

Because of coalitional politics

Lex Fridman (1:17:34.580)

and they owe something to somebody else.

Lex Fridman (1:17:36.700)

For example, Biden has got a lot

Saagar Enjeti (1:17:40.100)

of the Democratic constituency has to satisfy

Lex Fridman (1:17:42.900)

within this bill.

Lex Fridman (1:17:44.520)

So there's gonna be a lot of shit that goes in there,

Lex Fridman (1:17:47.040)

state and local aid, all this stuff.

Saagar Enjeti (1:17:49.220)

Again, I'm not even saying this is bad,

Lex Fridman (1:17:50.540)

but he's like, his theory is, and this isn't wrong,

Saagar Enjeti (1:17:53.900)

is like we're gonna take the really popular stuff

Lex Fridman (1:17:56.540)

and use it as cover for the more downwardly less popular.

Lex Fridman (1:18:00.380)

And so the Dems could face the accusation,

Lex Fridman (1:18:03.580)

the people who are on this side,

Saagar Enjeti (1:18:05.300)

this is their pushback to me.

Lex Fridman (1:18:06.220)

They're like, why would we give away the most popular thing

Saagar Enjeti (1:18:08.940)

in the bill and then we would never be able

Lex Fridman (1:18:10.920)

to pass state and local aid, right?

Lex Fridman (1:18:13.200)

Why would we do, and the Republicans do the same thing,

Lex Fridman (1:18:15.660)

right, like Mitch McConnell, because he's a fucking idiot,

Saagar Enjeti (1:18:18.700)

decided to say, we're gonna pair these $2,000 stimulus checks

Lex Fridman (1:18:21.740)

with like section 230 repeal.

Lex Fridman (1:18:24.020)

And it was like, oh, it's obviously dead, right?

Lex Fridman (1:18:26.020)

Like it's not gonna happen together.

Saagar Enjeti (1:18:28.220)

That's largely why I believe Trump lost the election

Lex Fridman (1:18:31.060)

and why those races down in Georgia

Saagar Enjeti (1:18:33.220)

went the way that they did.

Lex Fridman (1:18:34.160)

Obviously Trump had something to do with it,

Lex Fridman (1:18:36.860)

but the reason why is they have longstanding things

Lex Fridman (1:18:39.980)

that they've wanted to get done.

Lex Fridman (1:18:41.160)

And in the words of Rahm Emanuel, never let a good crisis

Lex Fridman (1:18:43.940)

go to waste and try and get as much as you possibly can done

Saagar Enjeti (1:18:47.420)

within a single bill.

Lex Fridman (1:18:48.940)

My counter would be this,

Saagar Enjeti (1:18:51.700)

things have worked this way for too long,

Lex Fridman (1:18:53.660)

which is that the reconciliation bill

Saagar Enjeti (1:18:55.820)

is almost certainly going to be the only large

Lex Fridman (1:18:59.180)

signature legislative accomplishment

Saagar Enjeti (1:19:02.260)

of the Biden presidency.

Lex Fridman (1:19:03.680)

That's just how American politics works.

Saagar Enjeti (1:19:05.380)

Maybe he gets one more, maybe one.

Lex Fridman (1:19:07.900)

He has a second reconciliation bill,

Saagar Enjeti (1:19:09.980)

then you're running for midterms, it's over.

Lex Fridman (1:19:12.860)

I believe that by trying to change the paradigm

Saagar Enjeti (1:19:16.180)

of our politics, leaning into exactly what I'm talking here,

Lex Fridman (1:19:19.820)

you could possibly transcend that to a new one.

Lex Fridman (1:19:23.340)

And I'm not naive.

Lex Fridman (1:19:24.700)

I think people respond to political pressures.

Lex Fridman (1:19:27.220)

And the way that we found this out was David Perdue,

Lex Fridman (1:19:30.940)

who was just a total corporate dollar general CEO guy.

Saagar Enjeti (1:19:35.940)

He was against the original $1,200 stimulus checks.

Lex Fridman (1:19:39.740)

But then Trump came out, who's the single most popular

Saagar Enjeti (1:19:42.540)

figure in the Republican party.

Lex Fridman (1:19:43.740)

He's like, I want $2,000 stimulus checks.

Lex Fridman (1:19:45.380)

And all of a sudden, Perdue running in Georgia is like,

Lex Fridman (1:19:49.340)

yeah, I'm with President Trump,

Saagar Enjeti (1:19:51.080)

I want a $2,000 stimulus check.

Lex Fridman (1:19:53.500)

That was, if you're an astute observer of politics,

Saagar Enjeti (1:19:55.900)

to say, you can see there that you can force people

Lex Fridman (1:19:59.260)

to do the right thing because it's the popular thing.

Lex Fridman (1:20:02.260)

And that if it's clean, if you don't give them

Lex Fridman (1:20:04.940)

any other excuse, they have to do it.

Lex Fridman (1:20:07.740)

So this is what we've been gaslit into our culture war

Lex Fridman (1:20:11.580)

framework of politics.

Lex Fridman (1:20:13.100)

And the reason it feels so broken and awful

Lex Fridman (1:20:17.340)

is because it is, but there is a way out.

Saagar Enjeti (1:20:20.580)

It's just that nobody wants to be, it's a game of chicken,

Lex Fridman (1:20:23.740)

because maybe it is true.

Saagar Enjeti (1:20:24.780)

Maybe we would never be able to get

Lex Fridman (1:20:26.500)

your other democratic priorities,

Saagar Enjeti (1:20:27.840)

your Republican priorities.

Lex Fridman (1:20:29.320)

But I think that the country understands

Saagar Enjeti (1:20:31.440)

that this is fucking terrible and would be willing

Lex Fridman (1:20:35.060)

to support somebody who does it differently.

Saagar Enjeti (1:20:37.100)

There's just a lot of disincentives to not stay without,

Lex Fridman (1:20:41.020)

there's a lot of incentives to not stray

Saagar Enjeti (1:20:43.640)

from the traditional path.

Lex Fridman (1:20:44.860)

Yeah, is it also possible that the A students

Lex Fridman (1:20:49.540)

are not participating?

Lex Fridman (1:20:51.340)

Like we drove all of the superstars away from politics.

Lex Fridman (1:20:56.260)

So like you just had this argument before.

Lex Fridman (1:20:58.620)

I mean, everything you're saying sort of rings true.

Saagar Enjeti (1:21:06.260)

Like this is the obvious thing to do.

Lex Fridman (1:21:08.340)

As a student of history, you can almost like tell,

Saagar Enjeti (1:21:10.820)

like, if you look at great people in history,

Lex Fridman (1:21:14.340)

this is what great leaders in history,

Saagar Enjeti (1:21:15.820)

this is what they did.

Lex Fridman (1:21:17.100)

It's like clean, bold action, sometimes facing crisis,

Lex Fridman (1:21:23.780)

but we're facing a crisis right now.

Lex Fridman (1:21:24.860)

No, we're in a crisis.

Saagar Enjeti (1:21:25.700)

We've been, exactly.

Lex Fridman (1:21:27.420)

So why don't we see those leaders step up?

Saagar Enjeti (1:21:33.460)

I mean, you say that's kind of like, it makes sense.

Lex Fridman (1:21:36.620)

There's a lot of different interests at play.

Saagar Enjeti (1:21:39.220)

You don't wanna risk too many things, so on and so forth.

Lex Fridman (1:21:41.800)

But that sounds like the C students.

Saagar Enjeti (1:21:45.940)

I don't think it's that.

Lex Fridman (1:21:47.380)

I think it's that the pipeline of politician creation

Saagar Enjeti (1:21:51.180)

is just totally broken from beginning to end.

Lex Fridman (1:21:54.240)

So it's not that A students don't wanna be politicians.

Saagar Enjeti (1:21:59.380)

It's basically the way that our current primary system

Lex Fridman (1:22:02.620)

is constructed, is what is the greatest threat to you

Lex Fridman (1:22:05.580)

as a member of Congress?

Lex Fridman (1:22:07.100)

It's not losing your reelection.

Lex Fridman (1:22:10.380)

It's losing your primary, right?

Lex Fridman (1:22:13.320)

So that means, especially in a safe district,

Saagar Enjeti (1:22:16.180)

you're most concerned about being hit

Lex Fridman (1:22:18.200)

if you're a Republican from the right,

Lex Fridman (1:22:19.780)

and if you're a Democrat from the left

Lex Fridman (1:22:21.380)

for not being a good enough one.

Saagar Enjeti (1:22:22.820)

That's actually what stops people,

Lex Fridman (1:22:25.580)

heterodox people in particular, from winning primaries

Saagar Enjeti (1:22:28.580)

because the people who vote in our primaries

Lex Fridman (1:22:30.740)

are the party faithful.

Saagar Enjeti (1:22:32.220)

That's how you get the production.

Lex Fridman (1:22:35.140)

It's important to understand the production pipeline,

Saagar Enjeti (1:22:37.300)

which is that, all right, I'm from Texas,

Lex Fridman (1:22:39.700)

so that's what I know best.

Lex Fridman (1:22:40.700)

So it's like, if you think in Texas,

Lex Fridman (1:22:43.000)

if you're a more heterodox like state legislature

Saagar Enjeti (1:22:46.100)

or something who works with the left on this and does that,

Lex Fridman (1:22:49.820)

you're gonna get your ass beat in a Republican primary

Saagar Enjeti (1:22:52.640)

because they're gonna be like,

Lex Fridman (1:22:53.480)

he worked with the left to do this, blah, blah,

Saagar Enjeti (1:22:56.780)

take it out of context, and you're screwed.

Lex Fridman (1:22:58.820)

And then that means you never ascend up

Saagar Enjeti (1:23:01.660)

the next level of the ladder,

Lex Fridman (1:23:03.260)

and then so on and so forth all the way.

Lex Fridman (1:23:05.580)

But I do think Trump changed everything.

Lex Fridman (1:23:08.260)

This is why I have some hope,

Saagar Enjeti (1:23:09.860)

which is that he showed me that all the people I listened to

Lex Fridman (1:23:14.900)

were totally wrong about politics,

Lex Fridman (1:23:16.820)

and that's the most valuable lesson you could ever teach me,

Lex Fridman (1:23:18.940)

which was, I was like, wait,

Saagar Enjeti (1:23:20.760)

I don't really have to listen to these people.

Lex Fridman (1:23:22.380)

I'm like, they don't know anything, actually.

Saagar Enjeti (1:23:24.940)

That's powerful, man.

Lex Fridman (1:23:26.020)

I'm like, he did it.

Saagar Enjeti (1:23:27.020)

This guy.

Lex Fridman (1:23:28.500)

Even if he didn't do anything with it.

Saagar Enjeti (1:23:32.460)

It doesn't matter.

Lex Fridman (1:23:33.500)

He showed that it's possible.

Lex Fridman (1:23:35.740)

And that means a lot.

Lex Fridman (1:23:39.580)

You're absolutely right.

Saagar Enjeti (1:23:40.600)

There's young people right now

Lex Fridman (1:23:42.080)

that kind of look, turn around and like, huh.

Saagar Enjeti (1:23:44.860)

You're like, wait, I don't have to comb my hair

Lex Fridman (1:23:46.820)

a certain way and go to law school and be an asshole

Saagar Enjeti (1:23:50.500)

who everybody knows is an asshole.

Lex Fridman (1:23:52.660)

And then get elected to state legislature.

Saagar Enjeti (1:23:55.060)

I mean, look, who's the number one person

Lex Fridman (1:23:57.740)

in the New York City primary right now?

Saagar Enjeti (1:24:01.100)

Andrew Yang.

Lex Fridman (1:24:02.020)

He's polling higher than everybody else in the race.

Saagar Enjeti (1:24:05.620)

Look, maybe the polls are totally fucked

Lex Fridman (1:24:07.300)

and maybe he'll lose because of ranked choice voting

Lex Fridman (1:24:09.340)

and all of that.

Lex Fridman (1:24:10.260)

But I consider Andrew, I mean, I know him a little bit

Lex Fridman (1:24:12.380)

and I've followed his candidacy from the very beginning.

Lex Fridman (1:24:15.100)

I consider him an inspiration.

Saagar Enjeti (1:24:16.660)

He's the new generation of politics.

Lex Fridman (1:24:19.660)

Like if I see who's gonna be president 20 years from now,

Saagar Enjeti (1:24:22.900)

it's gonna be, I'm not saying it's gonna be Andrew Yang.

Lex Fridman (1:24:24.980)

I think it's gonna be somebody like Andrew Yang

Saagar Enjeti (1:24:27.220)

outside the political system

Lex Fridman (1:24:28.740)

who talks in a totally different way, right?

Saagar Enjeti (1:24:31.700)

Just a completely, one of my favorite things

Lex Fridman (1:24:34.280)

that he said on the debate stage,

Saagar Enjeti (1:24:35.300)

he's like, look at us, we're all wearing makeup.

Lex Fridman (1:24:37.900)

It's crazy, you know?

Lex Fridman (1:24:38.740)

And he like, he like brought that, that he brought that.

Lex Fridman (1:24:42.180)

And he's writing like, yeah, why are they all wearing makeup?

Saagar Enjeti (1:24:44.580)

He probably arguably hasn't gone far enough almost.

Lex Fridman (1:24:47.380)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:24:48.500)

But he showed that it's possible.

Lex Fridman (1:24:50.040)

And then you see other, like AOC is a good example

Saagar Enjeti (1:24:53.260)

of somebody, at least in my opinion,

Lex Fridman (1:24:55.420)

is doing the same kind of thing, but going too far in like,

Saagar Enjeti (1:24:59.580)

well, I don't know, she's doing the Trump thing,

Lex Fridman (1:25:01.460)

but on the other side.

Lex Fridman (1:25:02.300)

So I don't know, what's too far?

Lex Fridman (1:25:04.220)

Who knows?

Saagar Enjeti (1:25:05.060)

Don't take a normative judgment of it.

Lex Fridman (1:25:05.900)

Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti (1:25:06.720)

I will tell you the future of politics

Lex Fridman (1:25:07.560)

looks like AOC. Appreciate the art of it.

Saagar Enjeti (1:25:08.640)

Right, no, I do.

Lex Fridman (1:25:09.480)

Look, I don't, I'm not a big AOC fan,

Lex Fridman (1:25:12.020)

but she's a genius, media genius,

Lex Fridman (1:25:14.180)

once in a generation talent.

Saagar Enjeti (1:25:16.000)

The way that she uses social media, Instagram,

Lex Fridman (1:25:19.660)

and everybody on the right is like trying to copy her.

Saagar Enjeti (1:25:21.660)

Like Matt Gaetz is like, I want to be the conservative AOC.

Lex Fridman (1:25:24.260)

I'm like, it's just not going to happen, dude.

Saagar Enjeti (1:25:25.580)

Like you just don't have it.

Lex Fridman (1:25:27.180)

Like what she has, it's like, it's electric.

Lex Fridman (1:25:29.900)

And Trump had that.

Lex Fridman (1:25:31.940)

Like I've been to a Trump rally,

Saagar Enjeti (1:25:33.620)

like to cover as a journalist,

Lex Fridman (1:25:35.660)

and there's nothing like it in America.

Lex Fridman (1:25:37.420)

And Yang is similar.

Lex Fridman (1:25:39.020)

It's the same way where you're like,

Saagar Enjeti (1:25:40.440)

there is something going on here,

Lex Fridman (1:25:43.060)

which is just like, I've been doing Obama rally.

Saagar Enjeti (1:25:45.740)

I've been to a Clinton rally.

Lex Fridman (1:25:47.380)

I've been to several normal politics.

Saagar Enjeti (1:25:50.900)

It's fine, you know, with Trump and with Yang,

Lex Fridman (1:25:54.660)

it was, it's another world.

Saagar Enjeti (1:25:56.260)

It's another world.

Lex Fridman (1:25:57.100)

Yeah, Yang gang.

Saagar Enjeti (1:25:57.940)

There's probably thousands of people listening right now,

Lex Fridman (1:26:00.220)

who are just like doing a slow clap.

Saagar Enjeti (1:26:03.040)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:26:03.880)

I know, I know.

Saagar Enjeti (1:26:05.080)

Yang gang forever.

Lex Fridman (1:26:06.820)

Okay, but yeah, I mean, my worst fear,

Saagar Enjeti (1:26:10.380)

I prefer Andrew Yang kind of free improvisational idea,

Lex Fridman (1:26:19.100)

exchange, all that versus AOC,

Saagar Enjeti (1:26:21.620)

who I think no matter what she stands for

Lex Fridman (1:26:25.420)

is a drama machine, creates dramas just like Trump does.

Saagar Enjeti (1:26:29.420)

I would say my worst fear would be in 2024,

Lex Fridman (1:26:33.260)

is AOC old enough?

Saagar Enjeti (1:26:34.500)

It'd be AOC versus Trump.

Lex Fridman (1:26:36.320)

I don't think she's old enough.

Saagar Enjeti (1:26:37.420)

I think you'd have to be, I don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:26:38.860)

I think she's 30.

Lex Fridman (1:26:39.700)

So she needs five more years.

Lex Fridman (1:26:40.780)

So probably not.

Saagar Enjeti (1:26:41.860)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:26:42.700)

Okay, but that kind of, that's, or Trump Jr.

Saagar Enjeti (1:26:45.460)

Well, AOC probably wouldn't win a Democratic primary.

Lex Fridman (1:26:47.620)

So, I mean, look, Joe Biden is, you know,

Saagar Enjeti (1:26:49.660)

he's pretty much showed that.

Lex Fridman (1:26:50.980)

That's exactly what you're saying.

Saagar Enjeti (1:26:52.500)

This process grooms you over time.

Lex Fridman (1:26:55.820)

You see the same thing in academia actually,

Saagar Enjeti (1:26:57.860)

which is very interesting,

Lex Fridman (1:26:59.940)

is the process of getting tenure.

Saagar Enjeti (1:27:02.520)

There's this, it's like you're being taught

Lex Fridman (1:27:06.060)

without explicitly being taught

Saagar Enjeti (1:27:10.760)

to behave in the way that everybody's behaved before.

Lex Fridman (1:27:14.480)

I've heard this, it was funny.

Saagar Enjeti (1:27:15.640)

I've had a few conversations

Lex Fridman (1:27:17.800)

that were deeply disappointing,

Saagar Enjeti (1:27:22.040)

which involved statements like,

Lex Fridman (1:27:25.040)

this is what's good for your career.

Saagar Enjeti (1:27:28.080)

This kind of conversation,

Lex Fridman (1:27:29.380)

almost like mentor to mentee conversation,

Saagar Enjeti (1:27:33.480)

or it's like, there's a grooming process in the same way.

Lex Fridman (1:27:36.680)

I guess you're saying the primary process

Saagar Enjeti (1:27:39.040)

does the same kind of thing.

Lex Fridman (1:27:40.040)

So, I mean, that's what people have talked about

Saagar Enjeti (1:27:42.320)

with Andrew Yang.

Lex Fridman (1:27:43.160)

He was being suppressed by a bunch of different forces,

Saagar Enjeti (1:27:46.880)

the mainstream media and all.

Lex Fridman (1:27:48.520)

Just the Democratic, just that whole process

Lex Fridman (1:27:51.040)

didn't like the honesty that he was showing, right?

Lex Fridman (1:27:55.240)

For now, but here's my question to you.

Saagar Enjeti (1:27:57.360)

People gotta see, look, Jordan Peterson

Lex Fridman (1:27:59.680)

is one of the most famous people in America, right?

Saagar Enjeti (1:28:01.680)

Like you have a massive podcast.

Lex Fridman (1:28:03.680)

You're more famous than half, 99% of the people at MIT.

Lex Fridman (1:28:07.200)

So like, from that perspective, everything has changed.

Lex Fridman (1:28:10.680)

And somewhere out there,

Saagar Enjeti (1:28:12.360)

there's a student who's taking notice.

Lex Fridman (1:28:14.320)

And I've noticed that with my own career,

Saagar Enjeti (1:28:16.040)

everybody thought I was crazy

Lex Fridman (1:28:17.280)

for doing this show with Crystal, The Hill.

Saagar Enjeti (1:28:19.040)

They thought I was nuts.

Lex Fridman (1:28:19.880)

They're like, what are you doing?

Saagar Enjeti (1:28:21.080)

You're a White House correspondent.

Lex Fridman (1:28:22.520)

You've got a job forever.

Saagar Enjeti (1:28:24.440)

The other job offer I had

Lex Fridman (1:28:25.600)

was being a White House correspondent.

Lex Fridman (1:28:27.280)

And people thought I was nuts

Lex Fridman (1:28:29.440)

for not just sticking there and aging out within Washington,

Saagar Enjeti (1:28:34.120)

pining for appearances on Fox News and CNN and MSNBC.

Lex Fridman (1:28:39.240)

But I hated it.

Saagar Enjeti (1:28:40.200)

I just hated doing it.

Lex Fridman (1:28:41.360)

I did not wanna be a company man, like a Washington man,

Saagar Enjeti (1:28:44.240)

who's one of those guys who like brags to his friends

Lex Fridman (1:28:47.040)

about how many times he's been on Fox or whatever,

Saagar Enjeti (1:28:49.440)

mostly because I just have a rebellious streak

Lex Fridman (1:28:51.760)

and I hate being at the subject of other people.

Saagar Enjeti (1:28:55.280)

I created something new,

Lex Fridman (1:28:56.280)

which a lot of people watch to get their news.

Lex Fridman (1:28:58.360)

And I noticed that younger people

Lex Fridman (1:29:00.840)

who are almost all my audience,

Saagar Enjeti (1:29:02.760)

they don't really look up to any of the people

Lex Fridman (1:29:05.000)

in traditional, right?

Saagar Enjeti (1:29:06.080)

They don't go and they're not coming up and being like,

Lex Fridman (1:29:09.000)

how do I be like Jim Acosta?

Lex Fridman (1:29:10.800)

You know, they're like, hey, how did you do what you do?

Lex Fridman (1:29:13.760)

And the way you did it is by bucking the system.

Lex Fridman (1:29:16.440)

So I think that we are at a total split point.

Lex Fridman (1:29:20.280)

And look, there will always be a path for people.

Saagar Enjeti (1:29:23.600)

Cause like, I don't want people to over learn this lesson.

Lex Fridman (1:29:26.160)

I have people who are like, I'm not gonna go to college.

Lex Fridman (1:29:27.760)

And I'm like, well, just wait.

Lex Fridman (1:29:29.360)

Yeah, like, I'm like, just like stop,

Saagar Enjeti (1:29:32.400)

just like, just hold on a second.

Lex Fridman (1:29:34.840)

But there will always be a path for the institutional

Saagar Enjeti (1:29:37.680)

that will always be there for you.

Lex Fridman (1:29:39.240)

But now there's something else.

Saagar Enjeti (1:29:40.920)

Now there's another game in town.

Lex Fridman (1:29:42.400)

And that's more appealing to millions and millions

Lex Fridman (1:29:45.120)

and millions and millions of people

Lex Fridman (1:29:46.960)

who feel unserved by the corporate media,

Saagar Enjeti (1:29:50.080)

CNN and these people,

Lex Fridman (1:29:52.040)

possibly who feel unserved in the, you know, the faculty.

Saagar Enjeti (1:29:56.000)

Like if you are an up and comer

Lex Fridman (1:29:59.000)

who wants to teach as many young people as possible,

Lex Fridman (1:30:02.640)

I think you should be on YouTube, right?

Lex Fridman (1:30:04.600)

Like look at the Khan Academy guy,

Saagar Enjeti (1:30:05.920)

that guy created a huge business.

Lex Fridman (1:30:07.940)

So I just think we can be cynical

Lex Fridman (1:30:10.520)

and like upset about what that system is,

Lex Fridman (1:30:12.640)

but we should also have hope.

Saagar Enjeti (1:30:14.000)

Like I have a lot of hope for what can be in the future.

Lex Fridman (1:30:16.960)

Yeah, there's a guy people should check out.

Lex Fridman (1:30:18.920)

So my story is a little bit different

Lex Fridman (1:30:20.600)

because I basically stepped aside

Saagar Enjeti (1:30:24.080)

with the dream of being an entrepreneur

Lex Fridman (1:30:28.360)

earlier in the pipeline

Saagar Enjeti (1:30:30.320)

than like a legitimate, like senior faculty would.

Lex Fridman (1:30:34.360)

There's an example of somebody people should check out,

Saagar Enjeti (1:30:36.480)

Andrew Huberman from Stanford, who's a neuroscientist,

Lex Fridman (1:30:40.200)

who's as world class as it gets

Saagar Enjeti (1:30:42.480)

in terms of like 10 year faculty,

Lex Fridman (1:30:45.340)

just a really world class researcher.

Lex Fridman (1:30:48.320)

And now he's doing YouTube.

Lex Fridman (1:30:50.120)

Yeah, I see him on Instagram.

Saagar Enjeti (1:30:51.380)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:30:52.220)

And he's great.

Lex Fridman (1:30:53.040)

So he not just does Instagram, he now has a podcast

Lex Fridman (1:30:56.640)

and he's changing the nature of like,

Saagar Enjeti (1:31:00.440)

I believe that Andrew might be the future of Stanford.

Lex Fridman (1:31:04.760)

And for a lot, it's funny, like he's basically,

Saagar Enjeti (1:31:08.320)

Joe Rogan is an inspiration to Andrew and to me as well.

Lex Fridman (1:31:13.040)

And those ripple effects and Andrew is an inspiration

Saagar Enjeti (1:31:15.800)

probably just like you're saying to these young,

Lex Fridman (1:31:18.560)

like 25 year olds who are soon to become faculty,

Saagar Enjeti (1:31:22.000)

if we're just talking about academia.

Lex Fridman (1:31:23.800)

And the same is probably happening with government is,

Saagar Enjeti (1:31:27.920)

funny enough, Trump probably is inspiring

Lex Fridman (1:31:31.540)

a huge number of people who are saying, wait a minute,

Saagar Enjeti (1:31:34.240)

I don't have to play by the rules.

Lex Fridman (1:31:36.120)

And I can think outside the box here and you're right.

Lex Fridman (1:31:40.520)

And the institutions we're seeing

Lex Fridman (1:31:42.420)

are just probably lagging behind.

Lex Fridman (1:31:44.520)

So the optimistic view is the future

Lex Fridman (1:31:48.040)

is going to be full of exciting new ideas.

Lex Fridman (1:31:50.200)

So Andrew Young is just kind of the beginning

Lex Fridman (1:31:52.100)

of this whole thing.

Saagar Enjeti (1:31:52.940)

He's the tip of the iceberg.

Lex Fridman (1:31:54.480)

And I hope that iceberg doesn't, it's not this influencer.

Saagar Enjeti (1:31:57.720)

One of the things that really bothers me,

Lex Fridman (1:32:01.240)

I've gotten the chance, I should be careful here.

Saagar Enjeti (1:32:03.520)

I don't wanna, I love everybody,

Lex Fridman (1:32:05.640)

but these people who talk about like,

Lex Fridman (1:32:09.680)

how to make your first million or how to succeed.

Lex Fridman (1:32:13.160)

And they're so, I mean, yeah,

Saagar Enjeti (1:32:16.520)

that makes me a little bit cynical

Lex Fridman (1:32:19.120)

about, I'm worried that the people

Saagar Enjeti (1:32:23.800)

that win the game of politics will be ones

Lex Fridman (1:32:26.240)

that want to win the game of politics.

Saagar Enjeti (1:32:29.800)

They are, they are, man.

Lex Fridman (1:32:31.140)

And like we mentioned, AOC,

Lex Fridman (1:32:33.720)

I hope they optimize for the 80% populist thing, right?

Lex Fridman (1:32:39.040)

Like they optimize for that bad thing,

Saagar Enjeti (1:32:42.360)

that history will remember you as the great man

Lex Fridman (1:32:44.680)

or woman that did this thing,

Saagar Enjeti (1:32:46.380)

versus how do I maximize engagement today

Lex Fridman (1:32:50.000)

and keep growing those numbers?

Saagar Enjeti (1:32:51.720)

The influencers are so, I'm so allergic to this, man.

Lex Fridman (1:32:56.520)

They keep saying how many followers they have

Saagar Enjeti (1:32:58.460)

on the different accounts.

Lex Fridman (1:33:00.080)

And it's like, I don't think they understand.

Saagar Enjeti (1:33:04.280)

Maybe I don't understand.

Lex Fridman (1:33:05.760)

I don't really care.

Saagar Enjeti (1:33:07.760)

I think it has destructive psychological effects.

Lex Fridman (1:33:13.360)

One, like thinking about the number,

Saagar Enjeti (1:33:15.600)

like getting excited, your number went from 100 to 101

Lex Fridman (1:33:19.800)

and being like, and today went out to 105.

Saagar Enjeti (1:33:23.400)

Whoa, that's a big jump.

Lex Fridman (1:33:24.600)

Then maybe like thinking this way,

Saagar Enjeti (1:33:26.160)

like I wonder what I did, I'll do that again.

Lex Fridman (1:33:28.820)

In this way, one, it creates anxiety

Lex Fridman (1:33:31.640)

and those psychological effects, whatever.

Lex Fridman (1:33:34.040)

The more important thing is it prevents you

Saagar Enjeti (1:33:37.040)

from truly thinking boldly in the long arc of history

Lex Fridman (1:33:42.040)

and creatively, thinking outside the box,

Saagar Enjeti (1:33:45.920)

doing huge actions.

Lex Fridman (1:33:48.000)

And I actually, my optimism is in the sense

Saagar Enjeti (1:33:50.520)

that that kind of action will beat out all the influencers.

Lex Fridman (1:33:54.360)

Well, I don't know, Lex, this is where my cynicism comes in.

Lex Fridman (1:33:58.120)

So there's a guy, Madison Cawthorn,

Lex Fridman (1:34:00.520)

the youngest member of Congress.

Lex Fridman (1:34:02.760)

And he, I don't want to say got caught,

Lex Fridman (1:34:05.760)

but there was like an email where he was like,

Saagar Enjeti (1:34:08.080)

my staff is only oriented around comms.

Lex Fridman (1:34:11.640)

Like he was basically saying,

Saagar Enjeti (1:34:12.740)

he got basically caught saying like,

Lex Fridman (1:34:14.680)

my staff is only centered on communications.

Lex Fridman (1:34:19.560)

And that's the right play.

Lex Fridman (1:34:21.200)

If you do want to get the benefits

Saagar Enjeti (1:34:23.840)

of our current electoral political and engagement system,

Lex Fridman (1:34:26.720)

which is that what's the best way to be known

Saagar Enjeti (1:34:29.260)

within the right as a right wing politician.

Lex Fridman (1:34:32.160)

It's to be a culture warrior, go on Ben Shapiro's podcast,

Saagar Enjeti (1:34:36.680)

be one of the people on Fox News,

Lex Fridman (1:34:39.040)

go on Sean Hannity's show, go on Tucker's show

Lex Fridman (1:34:41.760)

and all of that, because you become a mini celebrity

Lex Fridman (1:34:45.180)

within that world.

Saagar Enjeti (1:34:46.960)

Left unsaid is that that world is increasingly shrinking

Lex Fridman (1:34:50.360)

portion of the American population.

Lex Fridman (1:34:52.080)

And they barely, they can't even win a popular vote election,

Lex Fridman (1:34:56.020)

let alone barely win, eke out an electoral college victory

Saagar Enjeti (1:34:59.640)

in 2016.

Lex Fridman (1:35:01.640)

Well, but the incentives are all aligned within that.

Lex Fridman (1:35:04.600)

And it's the same thing really on the left,

Lex Fridman (1:35:06.840)

but you're right, which is that,

Saagar Enjeti (1:35:08.680)

ultimately, and look, this is why geniuses are geniuses

Lex Fridman (1:35:11.520)

because they buck the short term incentives.

Saagar Enjeti (1:35:15.160)

They focus on the long term, they bet big

Lex Fridman (1:35:18.380)

and they usually fail.

Lex Fridman (1:35:19.560)

But then when they get big, they succeed spectacularly.

Lex Fridman (1:35:24.640)

The people I know who have done this the best

Saagar Enjeti (1:35:27.400)

are like a lot of the crypto folks that I've spoken to.

Lex Fridman (1:35:30.840)

Like some of the stuff they say, I'm like,

Saagar Enjeti (1:35:32.840)

I don't know if that's gonna happen,

Lex Fridman (1:35:34.240)

but look, they're like billionaires, right?

Lex Fridman (1:35:36.280)

And you're like, so they were right.

Lex Fridman (1:35:38.960)

The way I've heard it expressed is you can be wrong a lot,

Lex Fridman (1:35:43.240)

but when you're right, you get right big.

Lex Fridman (1:35:45.680)

And I mean, I've seen this in Elon Musk's career.

Saagar Enjeti (1:35:47.680)

I mean, he took spectacular risk, like spectacular risk

Lex Fridman (1:35:52.720)

and just doubled down, doubled down, doubled down,

Saagar Enjeti (1:35:55.000)

doubled down, doubled down.

Lex Fridman (1:35:56.120)

And you can kind of tell to him,

Saagar Enjeti (1:35:57.760)

I mean, you know him better than I do,

Lex Fridman (1:35:59.040)

but like from my observation,

Lex Fridman (1:36:00.560)

I don't think the money matters, right?

Lex Fridman (1:36:03.360)

I just, like when I see him, I'm like, I don't,

Saagar Enjeti (1:36:07.080)

nobody works as hard as you do

Lex Fridman (1:36:08.760)

and builds the way that you build

Saagar Enjeti (1:36:10.920)

if it's just about the money.

Lex Fridman (1:36:12.280)

It just doesn't happen.

Saagar Enjeti (1:36:13.680)

Like nobody wills SpaceX into existence just for the money.

Lex Fridman (1:36:18.320)

Like it's not worth it, frankly, right?

Saagar Enjeti (1:36:19.880)

Like he probably destroyed years of his life

Lex Fridman (1:36:21.840)

and like mental sanity.

Saagar Enjeti (1:36:23.440)

Money or attention or fame, none of that.

Lex Fridman (1:36:25.280)

Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti (1:36:26.120)

It's not the primary priority.

Lex Fridman (1:36:26.960)

Well, that's what's so appealing to me,

Saagar Enjeti (1:36:28.520)

to me in particular about him, just like in how he built.

Lex Fridman (1:36:31.360)

Like I read a biography of him

Lex Fridman (1:36:32.640)

and just like the way that he constructed his life

Lex Fridman (1:36:34.880)

and like we're able to hyperfocus

Saagar Enjeti (1:36:36.680)

in meeting after meeting and drill down

Lex Fridman (1:36:38.560)

and also hire all the right people

Saagar Enjeti (1:36:40.480)

who execute each one of his tasks discreetly

Lex Fridman (1:36:43.320)

to his perfection is amazing.

Saagar Enjeti (1:36:45.480)

Like that's actually the mark of a good leader.

Lex Fridman (1:36:48.520)

But I mean, if you think about his career,

Saagar Enjeti (1:36:50.680)

the reason he's a renegade is cause probably he was told

Lex Fridman (1:36:53.200)

to like put it in an index fund or whatever.

Saagar Enjeti (1:36:55.440)

Like whenever he made his like 29 million

Lex Fridman (1:36:57.480)

and from PayPal, I don't know how much he made.

Lex Fridman (1:36:59.520)

And then just go along that road and he's like, no.

Lex Fridman (1:37:01.360)

So he succeeds spectacularly.

Lex Fridman (1:37:04.040)

So you have to have somebody who's willing to come in

Lex Fridman (1:37:07.240)

and buck that system.

Lex Fridman (1:37:08.240)

So for now, I think our politics are generally frozen.

Lex Fridman (1:37:12.080)

I think that that model is gonna be most generally appealing

Saagar Enjeti (1:37:16.880)

to the mean person, but somebody will come along

Lex Fridman (1:37:20.120)

and we'll change everything.

Saagar Enjeti (1:37:20.960)

Yeah, I'm just surprised there's not more of them.

Lex Fridman (1:37:22.720)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:37:23.560)

On that topic, it's now 20, what is it, 21?

Lex Fridman (1:37:28.040)

Yes.

Saagar Enjeti (1:37:28.880)

Let's make some predictions that you can be wrong about.

Lex Fridman (1:37:31.520)

Good.

Lex Fridman (1:37:33.920)

What major political people are you thinking will run

Lex Fridman (1:37:38.120)

in 2024, including Trump, junior, senior, or Ivanka?

Saagar Enjeti (1:37:44.160)

I don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:37:46.200)

Any Trump.

Saagar Enjeti (1:37:47.160)

Trump.

Lex Fridman (1:37:49.960)

And who do you think wins?

Saagar Enjeti (1:37:52.360)

I think Joe Biden will run again in 2024.

Lex Fridman (1:37:56.080)

And I think he will run against someone

Saagar Enjeti (1:37:57.680)

with the last name Trump.

Lex Fridman (1:37:59.600)

I do not know whether that is Trump or Trump junior,

Lex Fridman (1:38:03.800)

but I think one of those people will probably

Lex Fridman (1:38:06.160)

be the GOP nominee in 2024.

Lex Fridman (1:38:08.240)

Who is it?

Lex Fridman (1:38:09.080)

Some prominent political figure, was it Romney?

Saagar Enjeti (1:38:11.360)

Somebody like that said that Trump will win the primary

Lex Fridman (1:38:14.400)

if he runs again.

Saagar Enjeti (1:38:15.240)

Of course, that's not even a question.

Lex Fridman (1:38:16.680)

Trump is the single most popular figure

Saagar Enjeti (1:38:19.000)

in the Republican party by orders of magnitude.

Lex Fridman (1:38:22.320)

Still.

Saagar Enjeti (1:38:23.160)

Oh, I mean, probably more, honestly.

Lex Fridman (1:38:25.280)

There was a, actually, I can tell you

Saagar Enjeti (1:38:26.680)

because I saw the data, which is that pre January 6th,

Lex Fridman (1:38:30.240)

it was like 54% of Republicans wanted him to run again.

Saagar Enjeti (1:38:33.720)

Then it went down eight points after January 6th,

Lex Fridman (1:38:37.320)

two days later.

Lex Fridman (1:38:38.400)

And then after impeachment, it went right back up to 54%.

Lex Fridman (1:38:42.400)

So the exact same number is in February,

Saagar Enjeti (1:38:47.160)

post impeachment vote, as it was after November.

Lex Fridman (1:38:50.000)

Now look, yeah, again, surveys, bullshit, et cetera.

Lex Fridman (1:38:52.600)

But like, that's all the data we have.

Lex Fridman (1:38:54.080)

That's what I can point you to.

Saagar Enjeti (1:38:55.480)

If Trump runs, he will be the nominee

Lex Fridman (1:38:57.840)

and he will be the 2024 nominee.

Saagar Enjeti (1:39:00.920)

I just don't know if he wants to.

Lex Fridman (1:39:02.320)

It really depends.

Lex Fridman (1:39:04.120)

Do you think he wins?

Lex Fridman (1:39:05.560)

After the Trump vaccine heals all of us,

Lex Fridman (1:39:09.080)

do you think Trump wins?

Lex Fridman (1:39:10.200)

It depends on how popular culture functions

Saagar Enjeti (1:39:12.440)

over the next four years.

Lex Fridman (1:39:13.480)

And I can tell you that they are,

Saagar Enjeti (1:39:15.200)

because I don't think Biden has that much to do with it.

Lex Fridman (1:39:17.040)

Because again, Trump is not a manifestation

Saagar Enjeti (1:39:20.840)

of an affirmative policy action.

Lex Fridman (1:39:22.880)

It is a defensive bulwark wall against cultural liberalism.

Lex Fridman (1:39:29.720)

So it's like, this is why it doesn't matter what Biden does.

Lex Fridman (1:39:33.320)

If there are more riots,

Saagar Enjeti (1:39:35.120)

if there is a more sense of persecution

Lex Fridman (1:39:38.840)

amongst people who are more lean towards conservative

Saagar Enjeti (1:39:42.960)

or like, hey, I don't know about that, that's crazy,

Lex Fridman (1:39:45.760)

then he very well could win.

Saagar Enjeti (1:39:48.600)

Okay, let's say Joe Biden doesn't run

Lex Fridman (1:39:50.080)

and they put up like Kamala Harris,

Saagar Enjeti (1:39:51.320)

I think he would beat her.

Lex Fridman (1:39:53.000)

I don't think there's a question

Saagar Enjeti (1:39:54.680)

that Trump would beat Kamala Harris in 2024.

Lex Fridman (1:39:57.920)

And you don't think anybody else,

Saagar Enjeti (1:39:59.480)

I don't know how the process works,

Lex Fridman (1:40:01.160)

you don't think anybody else on the Democratic side

Saagar Enjeti (1:40:03.200)

can take the...

Lex Fridman (1:40:04.720)

Well, how could you run against the sitting vice president?

Saagar Enjeti (1:40:07.680)

It's like, Joe Biden has a 98% approval rating

Lex Fridman (1:40:11.360)

in the Democratic Party.

Saagar Enjeti (1:40:12.640)

If he says, she is my heir,

Lex Fridman (1:40:14.680)

I think enough people will listen to him

Saagar Enjeti (1:40:16.400)

in a competitive primary or a noncompetitive primary.

Lex Fridman (1:40:19.240)

And then there's all these things

Saagar Enjeti (1:40:20.240)

about how primary systems themselves are rigged,

Lex Fridman (1:40:23.080)

the DNC could make it known

Saagar Enjeti (1:40:25.040)

that they'll blacklist anybody

Lex Fridman (1:40:26.520)

who does try and primary Kamala Harris.

Lex Fridman (1:40:29.760)

And look, I mean,

Lex Fridman (1:40:31.160)

progressives aren't necessarily all that popular

Saagar Enjeti (1:40:33.480)

amongst actual Democrats,

Lex Fridman (1:40:34.960)

like we found that out during the election.

Saagar Enjeti (1:40:37.760)

There's an entire constituency which loves Joe Biden

Lex Fridman (1:40:40.640)

and Joe Biden level politics.

Lex Fridman (1:40:42.240)

And so if he tells them to vote for Kamala,

Lex Fridman (1:40:44.640)

I think she would probably get it.

Lex Fridman (1:40:47.120)

But again, there's a lot of game theory obviously happening.

Lex Fridman (1:40:49.960)

Well, see, I think you're talking about

Saagar Enjeti (1:40:52.200)

everything you're saying is correct

Lex Fridman (1:40:54.080)

about mediocre candidates.

Saagar Enjeti (1:40:55.960)

It feels like if there's somebody like a really strong,

Lex Fridman (1:40:59.600)

I don't wanna use this term incorrectly,

Lex Fridman (1:41:01.480)

but populist, somebody that speaks to the 80%

Lex Fridman (1:41:05.400)

that is able to provide bold,

Saagar Enjeti (1:41:10.400)

eloquently described solutions that are popular.

Lex Fridman (1:41:15.080)

I think that breaks through all of this nonsense.

Lex Fridman (1:41:17.200)

How?

Lex Fridman (1:41:18.040)

How do they break through the primary system?

Saagar Enjeti (1:41:19.560)

Cause the problem is the primary system is not populism.

Lex Fridman (1:41:22.520)

It's primary.

Lex Fridman (1:41:24.020)

So it's like.

Lex Fridman (1:41:24.860)

But you don't think they can tweet their way to.

Saagar Enjeti (1:41:27.720)

Well, you have to be willing to win a GOP primary.

Lex Fridman (1:41:30.720)

You basically have to be at,

Saagar Enjeti (1:41:32.760)

whoever wins the GOP primary, in my opinion,

Lex Fridman (1:41:35.440)

will be the person most hated by the left.

Saagar Enjeti (1:41:37.660)

One of the people, things that people forget is,

Lex Fridman (1:41:40.000)

you know who came in second to Trump?

Saagar Enjeti (1:41:41.920)

Ted Cruz.

Lex Fridman (1:41:42.960)

And the reason why is because Ted Cruz

Saagar Enjeti (1:41:44.960)

was the second most hated guy by liberals in America.

Lex Fridman (1:41:48.720)

A second to Trump.

Saagar Enjeti (1:41:49.880)

They have nothing in policy in common.

Lex Fridman (1:41:51.560)

But don't you think this kind of brilliantly described

Saagar Enjeti (1:41:54.880)

system of hate being the main mechanism

Lex Fridman (1:41:59.940)

of our electoral choices,

Lex Fridman (1:42:02.240)

don't you think that just has to do with mediocre candidates?

Lex Fridman (1:42:08.400)

Basically the field of candidates, including Trump,

Saagar Enjeti (1:42:11.240)

including everybody was just like,

Lex Fridman (1:42:13.680)

didn't make anyone feel great.

Lex Fridman (1:42:16.680)

It's like, really?

Lex Fridman (1:42:17.680)

This is what we have to choose from?

Saagar Enjeti (1:42:19.680)

Maybe a Mark Cuban,

Lex Fridman (1:42:22.120)

or like a Mark Cuban is a Democrat,

Saagar Enjeti (1:42:26.060)

or it would have to be somebody like that.

Lex Fridman (1:42:29.140)

Somebody who, because here's the thing about Trump.

Saagar Enjeti (1:42:30.920)

It's not just that it was Trump.

Lex Fridman (1:42:32.360)

He was so fucking famous.

Saagar Enjeti (1:42:34.320)

Like people don't realize he was so famous.

Lex Fridman (1:42:36.880)

Like I, even when I first met Trump,

Saagar Enjeti (1:42:39.880)

I met a couple of other presidents,

Lex Fridman (1:42:41.720)

but when I met Trump, even I felt like kind of starstruck.

Saagar Enjeti (1:42:44.520)

Cause I was like, yo, this is the guy from The Apprentice.

Lex Fridman (1:42:47.440)

I'm like, this is the dude.

Lex Fridman (1:42:49.440)

From The Apprentice?

Lex Fridman (1:42:50.800)

Cause I'm like, my dad and I used to sit

Lex Fridman (1:42:53.160)

and watch The Apprentice when I was in high school.

Lex Fridman (1:42:55.400)

And then one of the guys was from College Station

Saagar Enjeti (1:42:57.480)

where I grew up and we're like,

Lex Fridman (1:42:58.480)

oh my God, like that guy's on The Apprentice.

Saagar Enjeti (1:43:00.880)

Like it was a phenomenon.

Lex Fridman (1:43:02.240)

There's like that level.

Saagar Enjeti (1:43:03.080)

It's kind of like when I met Joe Rogan,

Lex Fridman (1:43:04.240)

I'm like, holy shit, that's Joe Rogan.

Saagar Enjeti (1:43:06.720)

I don't feel that way when I meet Mitt Romney,

Lex Fridman (1:43:08.600)

or Tom Cotton, or Josh Hawley, I met all of them.

Lex Fridman (1:43:11.000)

But there's a lot of celebrities, right?

Lex Fridman (1:43:12.440)

Do you think there's some celebrities

Lex Fridman (1:43:13.520)

you were not even thinking about that could step in?

Lex Fridman (1:43:15.480)

The Rock?

Lex Fridman (1:43:16.320)

So I was about to say, I think The Rock could do it,

Lex Fridman (1:43:19.440)

but does he wanna do it?

Saagar Enjeti (1:43:20.840)

I mean, it's terrible.

Lex Fridman (1:43:21.880)

Like it's terrible gig.

Saagar Enjeti (1:43:23.720)

It's very hard to do.

Lex Fridman (1:43:25.400)

I don't know if The Rock necessarily has

Saagar Enjeti (1:43:27.480)

like the formed policy agenda.

Lex Fridman (1:43:29.640)

Cause then here's the other problem.

Lex Fridman (1:43:31.080)

What if we set ourselves up for a system

Lex Fridman (1:43:32.880)

where like these people keep winning,

Lex Fridman (1:43:34.300)

but like with Trump, they have no idea

Lex Fridman (1:43:35.880)

how to run a government.

Lex Fridman (1:43:37.000)

It's actually really hard, right?

Lex Fridman (1:43:38.600)

And you have to have the knowhow and the trust

Saagar Enjeti (1:43:41.000)

to find the right people.

Lex Fridman (1:43:42.840)

This is where the genius element comes in is,

Saagar Enjeti (1:43:46.600)

you have to understand that front

Lex Fridman (1:43:48.540)

and you have to understand how to execute discrete tasks.

Saagar Enjeti (1:43:52.000)

Like this is the FDR.

Lex Fridman (1:43:54.440)

This is why it's so hard, like FDR, Lincoln, TR.

Saagar Enjeti (1:43:58.560)

They were who they were and they live in history

Lex Fridman (1:44:00.920)

and their name rings like for a reason.

Lex Fridman (1:44:04.220)

And yeah, I mean, one of the most depressing lessons

Lex Fridman (1:44:07.060)

I got from 2020 is at almost, it seems like in my opinion,

Saagar Enjeti (1:44:11.900)

that we over learn the lesson of our success

Lex Fridman (1:44:15.200)

and not of our failures.

Saagar Enjeti (1:44:16.520)

For example, like we have this narrative in our head

Lex Fridman (1:44:19.520)

that we always have the right person

Saagar Enjeti (1:44:21.860)

at the right time during crisis.

Lex Fridman (1:44:23.880)

And in some cases it was true.

Saagar Enjeti (1:44:25.600)

We didn't deserve Lincoln.

Lex Fridman (1:44:26.940)

We didn't deserve FDR.

Saagar Enjeti (1:44:28.520)

We didn't deserve a lot of presidents at times of crisis.

Lex Fridman (1:44:33.360)

But then you're like, okay, George W. Bush, 9 11,

Saagar Enjeti (1:44:36.800)

that was terrible.

Lex Fridman (1:44:38.460)

Reconstruction, Andrew Johnson, awful, right?

Saagar Enjeti (1:44:41.800)

Like we had several periods in our history

Lex Fridman (1:44:44.480)

where the crisis was there, they were called

Lex Fridman (1:44:48.440)

and they did not show up.

Lex Fridman (1:44:50.120)

And I really, it hadn't happened in my lifetime

Saagar Enjeti (1:44:54.040)

except for 9 11.

Lex Fridman (1:44:55.640)

And even then you could kind of see that as an opportunity

Saagar Enjeti (1:44:58.760)

for somebody like Obama to come in and fix it.

Lex Fridman (1:45:01.320)

But then he didn't do it.

Lex Fridman (1:45:02.640)

And then Trump didn't do it.

Lex Fridman (1:45:04.520)

And you realize, I feel like our politics are most analogous

Saagar Enjeti (1:45:09.260)

to like the 1910s, like all in terms of the Gilded Age,

Lex Fridman (1:45:13.960)

in terms of that, remember there's that long period

Saagar Enjeti (1:45:16.600)

of presidents between like Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt.

Lex Fridman (1:45:22.360)

We were like, wait, like who was president?

Saagar Enjeti (1:45:24.440)

Like, or even TR was like an exception

Lex Fridman (1:45:27.520)

where you'll have like Calvin Coolidge who like,

Saagar Enjeti (1:45:30.040)

silent cow, Grover Cleveland.

Lex Fridman (1:45:33.100)

That's kind of how, if I think of us within history,

Saagar Enjeti (1:45:36.600)

I feel like we're in one of those times.

Lex Fridman (1:45:38.820)

We're just waiting.

Saagar Enjeti (1:45:39.660)

It feels really important to us right now.

Lex Fridman (1:45:41.600)

Like this is the most important moment in history,

Lex Fridman (1:45:43.600)

but it might be.

Lex Fridman (1:45:44.440)

It could just be a blip, right?

Saagar Enjeti (1:45:45.800)

20, 30 year blip.

Lex Fridman (1:45:46.860)

Like when you think about who was president

Saagar Enjeti (1:45:48.820)

between 1890 and 19 before, I mean, yeah,

Lex Fridman (1:45:52.180)

between like 1888 and 1910.

Saagar Enjeti (1:45:56.700)

Like nobody really thinks about that period of America,

Lex Fridman (1:45:58.840)

but like that was an entire lifetime for people, right?

Saagar Enjeti (1:46:01.580)

Like what did they, how did they feel

Lex Fridman (1:46:03.600)

about the country that they were in?

Saagar Enjeti (1:46:04.920)

That's hilarious.

Lex Fridman (1:46:05.760)

That's how I kind of think about where we are right now.

Saagar Enjeti (1:46:07.280)

It's funny to think.

Lex Fridman (1:46:08.120)

I mean, I don't want to minimize it,

Lex Fridman (1:46:09.400)

but like we haven't really gone

Lex Fridman (1:46:11.080)

through a World War II style crisis.

Lex Fridman (1:46:13.960)

So like, say that there is a crisis

Lex Fridman (1:46:17.520)

in like several decades of that level, right?

Saagar Enjeti (1:46:21.400)

Existential risks to a large portion of the world.

Lex Fridman (1:46:26.160)

Then what will be remembered is World War II,

Saagar Enjeti (1:46:29.880)

maybe a little bit about Vietnam

Lex Fridman (1:46:32.520)

and then whatever that crisis is.

Lex Fridman (1:46:34.080)

And this whole period that we see as dramatic,

Lex Fridman (1:46:35.960)

even coronavirus.

Saagar Enjeti (1:46:37.280)

Even 9 11.

Lex Fridman (1:46:38.120)

Even 9 11, it's like, cause you can look

Saagar Enjeti (1:46:41.640)

at how many people died and all those kinds of things,

Lex Fridman (1:46:43.680)

all the drama around the war on terror

Lex Fridman (1:46:45.840)

and all those kinds of things.

Lex Fridman (1:46:47.720)

Maybe Obama will be remembered

Saagar Enjeti (1:46:49.600)

for being the first African American president,

Lex Fridman (1:46:52.360)

but then like that's, yeah, that's fascinating

Saagar Enjeti (1:46:55.640)

to think about, oh man, even Trump will be like,

Lex Fridman (1:46:59.040)

oh, okay, cool.

Saagar Enjeti (1:47:00.600)

That guy.

Lex Fridman (1:47:01.440)

Yeah, like maybe he'd be remembered

Saagar Enjeti (1:47:03.480)

as the first celebrity.

Lex Fridman (1:47:08.360)

I mean, Reagan was already a governor, right?

Saagar Enjeti (1:47:10.720)

Yeah, so like the first apolitical celebrity that was,

Lex Fridman (1:47:14.960)

so maybe if there's more celebrities in the future,

Saagar Enjeti (1:47:18.000)

they'll say that Trump was the first person

Lex Fridman (1:47:19.720)

to pave the way for celebrities to win.

Saagar Enjeti (1:47:23.160)

Oh man, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:47:25.840)

And yeah, I still hold that this era

Saagar Enjeti (1:47:29.040)

will probably be remembered.

Lex Fridman (1:47:30.560)

You know, people say I talk about Elon way too much,

Lex Fridman (1:47:34.480)

but the reality is like, there's not many people

Lex Fridman (1:47:37.840)

that are doing the kind of things he's doing

Saagar Enjeti (1:47:39.560)

is why I talk about it.

Lex Fridman (1:47:41.240)

I think this era, it's not necessarily Elon and SpaceX,

Lex Fridman (1:47:44.760)

but this era will be remembered by the new,

Lex Fridman (1:47:48.720)

the like of the space exploration,

Saagar Enjeti (1:47:51.560)

of the commercial of companies getting

Lex Fridman (1:47:54.280)

into space exploration of space travel.

Lex Fridman (1:47:57.320)

And perhaps like artificial intelligence

Lex Fridman (1:48:01.760)

around social media, all those kinds of things,

Saagar Enjeti (1:48:04.160)

this might be remembered for that.

Lex Fridman (1:48:06.160)

But every, all the political bickering,

Saagar Enjeti (1:48:07.640)

all that nonsense, that might be very well forgotten.

Lex Fridman (1:48:11.160)

One way to think about it is that the internet is so young.

Saagar Enjeti (1:48:16.240)

I think about it, so Jeff Jarvis,

Lex Fridman (1:48:18.920)

he's a media scholar I respect.

Saagar Enjeti (1:48:20.920)

He's not the only person to say this,

Lex Fridman (1:48:22.160)

but many others have, which is that, look,

Saagar Enjeti (1:48:23.920)

this is kind of like the printing press.

Lex Fridman (1:48:25.800)

There was a whole 30 years war

Saagar Enjeti (1:48:27.680)

because of the printing press.

Lex Fridman (1:48:29.320)

It took a long time for shit to sort out.

Saagar Enjeti (1:48:31.800)

I think that's where we're at with the internet.

Lex Fridman (1:48:33.200)

Like at a certain level, it disrupts everything.

Lex Fridman (1:48:36.320)

And that's a good thing.

Lex Fridman (1:48:37.360)

It can be very tumultuous.

Saagar Enjeti (1:48:39.880)

I never felt like I was living through history

Lex Fridman (1:48:41.880)

until coronavirus.

Saagar Enjeti (1:48:43.080)

Like, you know, like until we were all locked down,

Lex Fridman (1:48:45.120)

I was like, I'm living through history.

Saagar Enjeti (1:48:46.960)

Like this, there's this very overused cliche in DC

Lex Fridman (1:48:50.400)

where every comm staffer wants you to think

Saagar Enjeti (1:48:52.320)

that what their boss just did is history.

Lex Fridman (1:48:54.400)

And I've always been like, this isn't history.

Saagar Enjeti (1:48:56.040)

This is some like stupid fucking bill, you know, whatever.

Lex Fridman (1:48:58.320)

But like, that was the first time I was like,

Saagar Enjeti (1:49:00.240)

this is history, like this right here.

Lex Fridman (1:49:03.120)

Well, I was hoping, tragedy aside,

Saagar Enjeti (1:49:06.800)

that this, I wish the primaries happened during coronavirus

Lex Fridman (1:49:10.800)

so that we, because like, then we can see the,

Saagar Enjeti (1:49:14.000)

so, okay, here's a bunch of people facing crisis.

Lex Fridman (1:49:17.480)

It's an opportunity for a leader to step up.

Saagar Enjeti (1:49:20.120)

Like, I still believe the optimistic view

Lex Fridman (1:49:22.840)

is the game theory of like influencers

Saagar Enjeti (1:49:27.520)

will always be defeated by actual great leaders.

Lex Fridman (1:49:31.360)

So like, maybe the great leaders are rare,

Lex Fridman (1:49:34.200)

but I think they're sufficiently out there

Lex Fridman (1:49:36.800)

that they will step up, especially in moments of crisis.

Lex Fridman (1:49:39.880)

And coronavirus is obviously a crisis

Lex Fridman (1:49:43.160)

where like, you know, mass manufacture of tests,

Saagar Enjeti (1:49:48.600)

all kinds of infrastructure building

Lex Fridman (1:49:50.720)

that you could have done in 2020,

Saagar Enjeti (1:49:52.520)

there's so many possibilities for just like bold action.

Lex Fridman (1:49:56.120)

And none of that, even just,

Saagar Enjeti (1:50:00.680)

forget actually doing the action, advocating for it.

Lex Fridman (1:50:04.800)

Just saying like this, we need to do this.

Lex Fridman (1:50:07.800)

And none of that, like the speeches that Biden made,

Lex Fridman (1:50:11.680)

I don't even remember a single speech that Biden made

Saagar Enjeti (1:50:14.800)

because there's zero bold, I mean, their strategy

Lex Fridman (1:50:17.240)

was to be quiet and let Donald Trump.

Saagar Enjeti (1:50:21.480)

Polarize the electorate.

Lex Fridman (1:50:23.040)

Polarize the electorate and hope that results

Saagar Enjeti (1:50:25.480)

in them winning because of the high unemployment numbers

Lex Fridman (1:50:30.680)

and all those kinds of things,

Saagar Enjeti (1:50:31.960)

as opposed to like, let's go big,

Lex Fridman (1:50:34.640)

let's go with a big speech.

Saagar Enjeti (1:50:36.160)

Like, you know, that, yeah,

Lex Fridman (1:50:39.840)

it's a lost opportunity in some sense.

Lex Fridman (1:50:42.720)

So we talked a bunch about politics,

Lex Fridman (1:50:44.280)

but one of the other interesting things

Saagar Enjeti (1:50:45.960)

is that you're involved with is,

Lex Fridman (1:50:48.440)

or involved with defining the future of as journalism.

Saagar Enjeti (1:50:53.200)

I suppose you can think of podcasts

Lex Fridman (1:50:55.000)

as a kind of journalism,

Lex Fridman (1:50:56.280)

but also just writing in general,

Lex Fridman (1:50:58.800)

just whatever the hell the future of this thing looks like

Saagar Enjeti (1:51:02.800)

is up to be defined by people like you.

Lex Fridman (1:51:05.440)

So what do you think is broken about journalism

Lex Fridman (1:51:09.120)

and what do you think is the future of journalism?

Lex Fridman (1:51:11.760)

I think the future of journalism looks much more like

Lex Fridman (1:51:14.720)

what we, you and I are doing here right now.

Lex Fridman (1:51:17.120)

And journalism is gonna be downstream from a culture

Saagar Enjeti (1:51:20.800)

that can be a good and a bad thing

Lex Fridman (1:51:22.200)

depending on how you look at it.

Saagar Enjeti (1:51:23.960)

We are gonna look at our media,

Lex Fridman (1:51:26.120)

our media is gonna look much more like it did

Saagar Enjeti (1:51:29.400)

pre mass media.

Lex Fridman (1:51:31.120)

And the way that I mean that is that back in the 18,

Saagar Enjeti (1:51:35.480)

in the 1800s in particular,

Lex Fridman (1:51:38.040)

especially after the invention of the telegraph

Saagar Enjeti (1:51:40.200)

when information itself was known.

Lex Fridman (1:51:43.120)

So for example, like you and I don't need to,

Saagar Enjeti (1:51:46.040)

let's say you and I are competing journalists.

Lex Fridman (1:51:47.800)

You and I are no longer competing quote unquote

Saagar Enjeti (1:51:50.800)

to tell the public X event happened.

Lex Fridman (1:51:54.120)

All journalism today is largely explaining

Lex Fridman (1:51:58.800)

why did X happen.

Lex Fridman (1:52:01.280)

And part of the problem with that is that

Saagar Enjeti (1:52:04.400)

that means that it's all up for partisan interpretation.

Lex Fridman (1:52:08.080)

Now you can say that that's a bad thing.

Saagar Enjeti (1:52:09.800)

I think it's a great thing

Lex Fridman (1:52:11.080)

because the highest level of literacy

Lex Fridman (1:52:13.680)

and news viewership in America

Lex Fridman (1:52:17.040)

was during the time of yellow journalism,

Saagar Enjeti (1:52:19.720)

was during the time of partisan journalism.

Lex Fridman (1:52:22.080)

Not a surprise.

Saagar Enjeti (1:52:23.000)

People like to read the news from people

Lex Fridman (1:52:25.760)

that they agree with.

Saagar Enjeti (1:52:26.800)

You could say that's bad, echo chambers, et cetera.

Lex Fridman (1:52:29.920)

That's the downside of it.

Saagar Enjeti (1:52:31.200)

The upside is more people are more educated.

Lex Fridman (1:52:33.440)

More people are interested in the news.

Lex Fridman (1:52:36.520)

So I think the proliferation of mass media,

Lex Fridman (1:52:40.000)

I mean, sorry, of this format

Saagar Enjeti (1:52:41.760)

of niching, of not just long form.

Lex Fridman (1:52:45.920)

Dude, I do updates on Instagram, which are five minutes.

Lex Fridman (1:52:48.800)

Are you considered like Instagram, almost even Twitter?

Lex Fridman (1:52:51.920)

Oh, of course, Twitter.

Saagar Enjeti (1:52:53.080)

Twitter is where I get my news from.

Lex Fridman (1:52:54.560)

I don't read the paper.

Saagar Enjeti (1:52:55.400)

I have literally, Twitter is my news aggregator.

Lex Fridman (1:52:57.640)

It's called my wire where I find out about hard events.

Saagar Enjeti (1:53:01.160)

Like the president has departed the White House.

Lex Fridman (1:53:03.280)

But not only that, I don't know about you,

Lex Fridman (1:53:04.800)

but I also looked at Twitter

Lex Fridman (1:53:06.680)

to the exact thing you're saying,

Saagar Enjeti (1:53:07.880)

which is the response to the news,

Lex Fridman (1:53:09.600)

like the thoughtful sounds ridiculous,

Lex Fridman (1:53:12.960)

but you can be pretty thoughtful in a single tweet.

Lex Fridman (1:53:15.720)

If you follow the right people, you can get that.

Lex Fridman (1:53:18.480)

And so that is the future of media,

Lex Fridman (1:53:21.000)

which is that the future of media

Saagar Enjeti (1:53:22.840)

is it will be much larger amounts of people,

Lex Fridman (1:53:27.480)

which are famous to smaller groups.

Lex Fridman (1:53:29.520)

So Walter Cronkite's never gonna happen again,

Lex Fridman (1:53:32.160)

at least probably within our lifetimes,

Saagar Enjeti (1:53:34.280)

where everybody in America knows who this guy is.

Lex Fridman (1:53:37.960)

That age is over.

Saagar Enjeti (1:53:39.120)

I think that's a good thing

Lex Fridman (1:53:40.400)

because now people are gonna get the news

Saagar Enjeti (1:53:42.880)

from the people that they trust.

Lex Fridman (1:53:44.760)

Yes, some of it will be opinionated.

Saagar Enjeti (1:53:46.400)

I'm in my program.

Lex Fridman (1:53:49.040)

Crystal and I are like, she's coming from this view.

Saagar Enjeti (1:53:53.720)

I'm coming from this view.

Lex Fridman (1:53:55.080)

That's our bias when we talk about information

Lex Fridman (1:53:57.600)

and we're gonna talk about the information

Lex Fridman (1:53:59.120)

that we think is important.

Lex Fridman (1:54:00.760)

And it has garnered a large audience.

Lex Fridman (1:54:02.720)

I think that's very much where the future is gonna be.

Lex Fridman (1:54:06.160)

And the reason why I think that's a good thing

Lex Fridman (1:54:08.680)

is because people will be engaged more within it

Saagar Enjeti (1:54:13.160)

rather than the current system

Lex Fridman (1:54:14.720)

where news is highly concentrated, highly consolidated,

Saagar Enjeti (1:54:17.880)

has group think,

Lex Fridman (1:54:19.080)

has the same elite production pipeline problem

Saagar Enjeti (1:54:22.880)

of everybody knows journalists all come

Lex Fridman (1:54:25.240)

from the same socioeconomic background

Lex Fridman (1:54:27.240)

and they all party together here in DC or in New York

Lex Fridman (1:54:30.040)

or in LA or wherever,

Lex Fridman (1:54:31.800)

and they're part of the same monoculture

Lex Fridman (1:54:33.760)

and that affects what they report.

Saagar Enjeti (1:54:37.080)

This will cause a total dispersion of all of that.

Lex Fridman (1:54:40.480)

The battle of our age is gonna be the guild

Saagar Enjeti (1:54:44.600)

versus the non guild.

Lex Fridman (1:54:46.160)

So like what we see right now

Saagar Enjeti (1:54:48.120)

with the New York Times and Clubhouse,

Lex Fridman (1:54:50.640)

this is a very, very, very, very, very intentional thing

Saagar Enjeti (1:54:54.880)

that is happening,

Lex Fridman (1:54:55.800)

which is that the Times talking

Saagar Enjeti (1:54:58.000)

about unfettered conversations,

Lex Fridman (1:55:00.320)

that's happening on Clubhouse for people who aren't aware.

Saagar Enjeti (1:55:03.120)

This is important because they need

Lex Fridman (1:55:06.280)

to be the fetters of conversation.

Saagar Enjeti (1:55:08.880)

They need to be the inter agent.

Lex Fridman (1:55:11.600)

That's where they get their power.

Saagar Enjeti (1:55:12.760)

They get their power from convincing Facebook

Lex Fridman (1:55:15.520)

that they are the ones who can fact check stuff.

Saagar Enjeti (1:55:18.480)

They are the ones who can tell you

Lex Fridman (1:55:20.760)

whether something is right or wrong.

Saagar Enjeti (1:55:23.160)

That battle over unimpeded conversation

Lex Fridman (1:55:27.120)

and the explosion of a format

Saagar Enjeti (1:55:28.640)

that you and I are doing really well in,

Lex Fridman (1:55:30.400)

and then this more consolidated one,

Saagar Enjeti (1:55:32.680)

which holds cultural power and elite power

Lex Fridman (1:55:35.280)

and more importantly, money, right?

Saagar Enjeti (1:55:37.240)

Over you and I, that's the battle

Lex Fridman (1:55:39.240)

that we're all gonna play out.

Lex Fridman (1:55:40.080)

Do you think unfettered conversations

Lex Fridman (1:55:41.800)

have a chance to win this battle?

Saagar Enjeti (1:55:43.640)

Yes, I do in the long run.

Lex Fridman (1:55:45.360)

In the long run, the internet is simply too powerful.

Lex Fridman (1:55:48.440)

But here's the mistake everybody makes.

Lex Fridman (1:55:50.720)

The New York Times will never lose.

Saagar Enjeti (1:55:52.200)

It will just become one of us.

Lex Fridman (1:55:53.740)

See.

Lex Fridman (1:55:54.580)

You think so?

Lex Fridman (1:55:55.400)

They already are.

Saagar Enjeti (1:55:56.240)

They are the largest.

Lex Fridman (1:55:57.080)

The daily?

Saagar Enjeti (1:55:57.900)

The daily, look at the daily.

Lex Fridman (1:55:58.760)

Not even that.

Saagar Enjeti (1:55:59.640)

Think about it not in podcasting.

Lex Fridman (1:56:01.200)

The Times is not a mass media product.

Saagar Enjeti (1:56:04.720)

It is a subscription product

Lex Fridman (1:56:06.960)

for upper middle class largely white liberals

Saagar Enjeti (1:56:10.080)

who live the same circumstances

Lex Fridman (1:56:12.800)

across the United States and in Europe.

Saagar Enjeti (1:56:15.400)

There's nothing wrong with that.

Lex Fridman (1:56:16.880)

But here's the thing.

Saagar Enjeti (1:56:17.880)

You can't be the paper of record

Lex Fridman (1:56:19.660)

when you're actually the paper

Saagar Enjeti (1:56:21.560)

of upper middle class white America.

Lex Fridman (1:56:23.520)

Your job is to report on the news from that angle

Lex Fridman (1:56:27.000)

and deliver them the product that they want.

Lex Fridman (1:56:29.040)

There's nothing wrong with that.

Saagar Enjeti (1:56:30.540)

Their stock price is higher than ever.

Lex Fridman (1:56:32.560)

They're making 10 times more money than they did

Saagar Enjeti (1:56:35.000)

10 years ago, but it comes at the cost

Lex Fridman (1:56:38.580)

of not having a mass application audience.

Lex Fridman (1:56:41.520)

So like when people, I think people in our space

Lex Fridman (1:56:44.200)

are always like, the New York Times is gonna be destroyed.

Saagar Enjeti (1:56:46.280)

No, it's actually even better.

Lex Fridman (1:56:48.640)

They will just become one of us.

Saagar Enjeti (1:56:50.560)

They already are.

Lex Fridman (1:56:51.480)

They're a subscription platform.

Saagar Enjeti (1:56:53.080)

Well, yes, in terms of the actual mechanism.

Lex Fridman (1:56:54.880)

But you know, New York Times is still,

Lex Fridman (1:56:58.000)

and I don't think I'm speaking about a particular sector.

Lex Fridman (1:57:00.400)

I think it, as a brand, it does have the level

Saagar Enjeti (1:57:06.020)

of credibility assigned to it still.

Lex Fridman (1:57:08.680)

There's politicization of it.

Saagar Enjeti (1:57:10.600)

Totally.

Lex Fridman (1:57:11.440)

But there's a credibility.

Saagar Enjeti (1:57:13.740)

Like it has much more credibility than,

Lex Fridman (1:57:16.480)

forgive me, than I think you and I have.

Saagar Enjeti (1:57:18.800)

No, you're right.

Lex Fridman (1:57:19.640)

In terms of your podcast, like people are not going

Saagar Enjeti (1:57:23.480)

to be like, they're gonna say at the New York Times

Lex Fridman (1:57:27.800)

versus what you said on the podcast for an opinion.

Saagar Enjeti (1:57:33.120)

I wonder in the sense of battles,

Lex Fridman (1:57:35.320)

whether on Federated Conversations, whether Joe Rogan,

Saagar Enjeti (1:57:37.800)

whether your podcast can become the,

Lex Fridman (1:57:41.840)

have the same level of legitimacy or the flip side,

Saagar Enjeti (1:57:45.280)

New York Times loses legitimacy to be at the same level

Lex Fridman (1:57:49.640)

of in terms of how we talk about it.

Lex Fridman (1:57:52.640)

It's a long battle, right?

Lex Fridman (1:57:54.480)

It's gonna take a long time.

Lex Fridman (1:57:55.880)

And I'm saying, this is where I think the end state is going

Lex Fridman (1:57:58.240)

and look at what the Times is doing.

Saagar Enjeti (1:57:59.520)

They're leaning into podcasting for a reason,

Lex Fridman (1:58:01.960)

but not just podcasting as in NPR level,

Saagar Enjeti (1:58:06.160)

like here's what's happening.

Lex Fridman (1:58:07.700)

Michael Barbaro is a fucking celebrity, right?

Saagar Enjeti (1:58:10.320)

The guy who does the daily.

Lex Fridman (1:58:11.720)

That guy's famous amongst these people

Saagar Enjeti (1:58:14.900)

because they're like, oh my God, I love Michael.

Lex Fridman (1:58:16.840)

Like, I love the way he does this stuff.

Saagar Enjeti (1:58:18.200)

Again, that's fine.

Lex Fridman (1:58:19.360)

More people are listening to the news.

Saagar Enjeti (1:58:20.680)

I think that's a good thing.

Lex Fridman (1:58:22.160)

And then who else do they hire?

Saagar Enjeti (1:58:23.680)

Ezra Klein from Vox, Kara Swisher, also from Vox,

Lex Fridman (1:58:27.520)

who does Pivot, which is an amazing podcast.

Saagar Enjeti (1:58:30.360)

Or Jane Coaston, same thing.

Lex Fridman (1:58:32.640)

It's personalities who are becoming bundled together

Lex Fridman (1:58:36.280)

within this brand, right?

Lex Fridman (1:58:38.200)

Here's, okay, maybe I'm just a hater.

Saagar Enjeti (1:58:42.760)

Cause I love podcasting from the beginning.

Lex Fridman (1:58:45.240)

I love Green Day before the recall, man.

Lex Fridman (1:58:48.420)

But I am bothered by it.

Lex Fridman (1:58:50.580)

Like why doesn't Kara Swisher, she's done successfully.

Saagar Enjeti (1:58:53.400)

I think in her own, no, she was always a part

Lex Fridman (1:58:55.600)

of some kind of institution.

Saagar Enjeti (1:58:56.680)

I'm not sure.

Lex Fridman (1:58:57.600)

But she started her own thing, I think.

Saagar Enjeti (1:59:00.080)

It would.

Lex Fridman (1:59:00.920)

Recode, right, yeah.

Saagar Enjeti (1:59:01.920)

Recode, I don't know if that's her own thing.

Lex Fridman (1:59:03.520)

Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:59:04.360)

So she was very successful there.

Lex Fridman (1:59:06.200)

Why the hell did she join the New York Times

Lex Fridman (1:59:08.780)

with the new podcast?

Lex Fridman (1:59:09.920)

Why is Michael Barbaro not do his own thing?

Saagar Enjeti (1:59:13.120)

Cause he gets paid and because he has,

Lex Fridman (1:59:14.920)

he wants the elite cache that you just referenced

Saagar Enjeti (1:59:17.800)

within his social circle in New York,

Lex Fridman (1:59:19.880)

which is that I think the biggest mistake

Saagar Enjeti (1:59:21.960)

that some of the venture people make is

Lex Fridman (1:59:23.880)

if we give everybody the tools

Saagar Enjeti (1:59:25.780)

that those people are all gonna leave

Lex Fridman (1:59:27.600)

to like go substack and go independent,

Saagar Enjeti (1:59:29.660)

within their social circle,

Lex Fridman (1:59:31.440)

sacrificing some money from being independent is worth it

Saagar Enjeti (1:59:35.600)

to be a part of the New York Times.

Lex Fridman (1:59:38.060)

That's sad to me because it propagates old thinking,

Saagar Enjeti (1:59:43.140)

like it propagates old institutions.

Lex Fridman (1:59:46.400)

And you could say that New York Times

Saagar Enjeti (1:59:47.800)

is going to evolve quickly and so on,

Lex Fridman (1:59:49.700)

but I would love it if there was a mechanism

Saagar Enjeti (1:59:54.200)

for reestablishing, like for building new New York Times

Lex Fridman (1:59:58.360)

in terms of public legitimacy.

Lex Fridman (1:59:59.960)

And I suppose that's a wishful thinking

Lex Fridman (20:00.240)

because I tend to see the role of the president

Saagar Enjeti (20:04.360)

as in part like inspirer in chief,

Lex Fridman (20:08.400)

sort of to be able to, I mean,

Saagar Enjeti (20:10.600)

that's what great leaders do,

Lex Fridman (20:12.120)

like CEOs of companies and so on,

Saagar Enjeti (20:14.200)

establish a vision, a clear vision,

Lex Fridman (20:17.080)

and like hit that hard.

Lex Fridman (20:19.760)

But the way you establish the vision isn't just like,

Lex Fridman (20:23.400)

not to dig at Joe Biden,

Lex Fridman (20:24.680)

but like sleepy, boring statements.

Lex Fridman (20:29.040)

You have to sell those statements

Lex Fridman (20:31.240)

and you have to do it in a way

Lex Fridman (20:34.080)

where everybody's paying attention.

Saagar Enjeti (20:35.520)

Everybody's excited.

Lex Fridman (20:36.960)

And that, Teddy Roosevelt was definitely one of them.

Saagar Enjeti (20:40.480)

Obama was, I think, at least early on,

Lex Fridman (20:44.000)

I don't know, was incredible at that.

Saagar Enjeti (20:47.680)

It does feel that the modern political landscape

Lex Fridman (20:49.840)

makes it more difficult to be inspirational in a sense

Saagar Enjeti (20:52.800)

because everything becomes bickering and division.

Lex Fridman (20:55.400)

I do want to ask you about Trump.

Lex Fridman (21:00.320)

So you're now a successful podcaster.

Lex Fridman (21:03.840)

I've talked to Joe about Trump, Joe Rogan,

Lex Fridman (21:07.800)

and Joe's not interested in talking to Trump.

Lex Fridman (21:11.440)

It's just fascinating.

Saagar Enjeti (21:12.400)

I try to dig into like why.

Lex Fridman (21:16.160)

What would you interview Trump on like realignment,

Saagar Enjeti (21:20.240)

for example, and do you think it's possible

Lex Fridman (21:24.440)

to do a two, three hour conversation with him

Saagar Enjeti (21:27.640)

where you will get at something like human

Lex Fridman (21:31.160)

or you get at something, like when we're talking

Saagar Enjeti (21:33.840)

about the facade he puts forward,

Lex Fridman (21:35.960)

do you think you could get past that?

Saagar Enjeti (21:37.960)

No, I don't.

Lex Fridman (21:39.240)

I look, I was a White House correspondent.

Saagar Enjeti (21:41.720)

I observed this man very closely.

Lex Fridman (21:45.040)

I interviewed him.

Saagar Enjeti (21:46.320)

I think if that mic is hot, he knows what he's doing.

Lex Fridman (21:49.360)

He just, he's done this too long, Lex.

Saagar Enjeti (21:52.040)

He just knows.

Lex Fridman (21:52.880)

But do you think he's a different human now

Lex Fridman (21:54.600)

after the election?

Lex Fridman (21:56.080)

Do you think that?

Saagar Enjeti (21:56.920)

Yeah, not at all.

Lex Fridman (21:59.160)

I think he's been the same person since 1976.

Saagar Enjeti (22:02.800)

I really do.

Lex Fridman (22:03.720)

Like basically, 1976, I studied Trump a lot

Lex Fridman (22:07.120)

and I think he's basically been the core

Lex Fridman (22:10.120)

of who he is and elements of that.

Saagar Enjeti (22:12.800)

Ever since he built that, you know,

Lex Fridman (22:14.720)

the ice rink in Central Park and got that media attention,

Saagar Enjeti (22:18.640)

that was it.

Lex Fridman (22:19.480)

Yeah, he's a fascinating study.

Saagar Enjeti (22:20.960)

Still, I feel there's a hope in me

Lex Fridman (22:24.840)

that there would be a podcast like a Joe Rogan,

Saagar Enjeti (22:28.520)

like a long form podcast where it's something could be,

Lex Fridman (22:31.560)

you know, and you're actually a really good person

Saagar Enjeti (22:33.440)

to do that, where you can have a real conversation

Lex Fridman (22:37.840)

that looks back at the election and reveal something on us.

Lex Fridman (22:40.360)

But perhaps he's thinking about running again

Lex Fridman (22:42.840)

and so maybe he'll never let down that guard.

Lex Fridman (22:46.280)

But like, you know, I just love it when

Lex Fridman (22:49.640)

there's this switch in people where you start looking back

Saagar Enjeti (22:55.480)

at your life and wanting to tell stories.

Lex Fridman (22:57.840)

Like, you know, trying to extract wisdom

Lex Fridman (23:01.280)

and like realizing you're in this new phase of life

Lex Fridman (23:03.640)

where like the battles have all been fought,

Saagar Enjeti (23:06.320)

now you're this old, like former warrior

Lex Fridman (23:10.360)

and now you can tell the stories of that time.

Lex Fridman (23:12.520)

And it seems like Trump is still at it,

Lex Fridman (23:14.720)

like the young warrior he is,

Saagar Enjeti (23:16.160)

he's not in the mode of telling stories.

Lex Fridman (23:18.400)

You know what I got from Rogan?

Saagar Enjeti (23:19.600)

He's the only president who didn't age well in office.

Lex Fridman (23:22.720)

It's true, right?

Saagar Enjeti (23:23.720)

Like, and this is what I mean,

Lex Fridman (23:25.240)

because he lives in the moment, like the job actually

Saagar Enjeti (23:28.640)

aged Obama, I mean, Bush, same thing, even Clinton.

Lex Fridman (23:32.560)

Clinton was like fat, it looked miserable by like 2000.

Saagar Enjeti (23:36.400)

HW, like, I mean, Reagan, famous, actually, yeah,

Lex Fridman (23:39.280)

pretty much everybody I think about,

Saagar Enjeti (23:42.880)

including John F. Kennedy,

Lex Fridman (23:44.080)

who got much sicker while in office.

Saagar Enjeti (23:45.680)

The job like weighs on you and makes you physically ill.

Lex Fridman (23:49.280)

Trump was, he's the only person who just didn't happen to.

Saagar Enjeti (23:53.080)

He almost gotten stronger and he was one of the most,

Lex Fridman (23:57.000)

like the climate, there's so many people attacking him,

Lex Fridman (24:00.240)

so much hatred, so much love and hatred.

Lex Fridman (24:03.160)

And it was just, I mean, it was whatever it was,

Saagar Enjeti (24:06.760)

it was quite masterful and a fascinating study.

Lex Fridman (24:10.840)

If we stick on Hitler for just a minute,

Lex Fridman (24:15.920)

what lessons do you take from that time?

Lex Fridman (24:20.000)

Do you think it's a unique moment in human history,

Saagar Enjeti (24:23.440)

that World War II, I mean, both Stalin and Hitler,

Lex Fridman (24:29.360)

you know, is it something that's just an outlier

Saagar Enjeti (24:33.840)

in all of human history in terms of the atrocities,

Lex Fridman (24:36.440)

or is there lessons to be learned?

Saagar Enjeti (24:40.800)

You mentioned offline that you're not just a student

Lex Fridman (24:45.280)

of the entirety of the history, but you also are fascinated

Saagar Enjeti (24:47.440)

by just different like policies and stuff.

Lex Fridman (24:50.600)

Like, what's the immigration policy?

Lex Fridman (24:52.120)

What's the policy on science?

Lex Fridman (24:53.520)

And...

Saagar Enjeti (24:54.360)

Third Reich in power, let me plug it,

Lex Fridman (24:55.640)

by Richard Evans, I think is what it was.

Saagar Enjeti (24:58.480)

Cause that actually will tell you,

Lex Fridman (25:00.000)

like what was it like to live under the Nazi regime

Lex Fridman (25:03.000)

without the war?

Lex Fridman (25:05.360)

Yeah, it's a hard question in terms of the lessons

Saagar Enjeti (25:08.040)

that we can learn.

Lex Fridman (25:08.880)

Cause there's a lot, and it's actually been over,

Saagar Enjeti (25:11.800)

it's been over indexed almost.

Lex Fridman (25:13.720)

Everything comes back to Hitler in a conversation.

Lex Fridman (25:15.920)

So I kind of think of it within Mao, Stalin, and Hitler

Lex Fridman (25:21.120)

as, I don't wanna say payments for,

Lex Fridman (25:24.880)

but like the end point payment for the sins

Lex Fridman (25:30.680)

and the problems of the monarchical system

Saagar Enjeti (25:34.040)

that evolve within Europe.

Lex Fridman (25:35.680)

Basically like 1400 and more.

Saagar Enjeti (25:38.320)

I basically think that 1400,

Lex Fridman (25:41.280)

the wars between France, England, the balance of power,

Saagar Enjeti (25:45.560)

eventually World War I, and then serfdom within Russia,

Lex Fridman (25:49.400)

the Russian revolution that birthed Stalin.

Saagar Enjeti (25:52.080)

Same thing, the Kaiser and Imperial Germany

Lex Fridman (25:55.040)

and this like incredibly crazy system of balance of power

Saagar Enjeti (25:58.440)

in World War I.

Lex Fridman (25:59.760)

And then same thing within China

Saagar Enjeti (26:01.680)

in terms of the warring states and then the disintegration,

Lex Fridman (26:05.440)

the European, you know, this is how they think of it.

Saagar Enjeti (26:08.480)

Which is like the century of humiliation

Lex Fridman (26:10.400)

and they had to have something like this.

Saagar Enjeti (26:12.720)

I think of it, I try to think of it

Lex Fridman (26:14.040)

within the context of that.

Saagar Enjeti (26:15.680)

I don't wanna sound like an inevitablist,

Lex Fridman (26:19.080)

but I think of it as, I like to think about systems,

Saagar Enjeti (26:22.920)

especially here in DC, that's where I got into politics,

Lex Fridman (26:25.160)

which is that you have to understand systems of power

Lex Fridman (26:29.400)

and the incentives within systems and the disincentives,

Lex Fridman (26:33.000)

the downside risk of what you're creating

Saagar Enjeti (26:36.840)

because that is what leads and creates the behavior

Lex Fridman (26:42.080)

within that system.

Saagar Enjeti (26:43.160)

I was just talking to my girlfriend about this yesterday.

Lex Fridman (26:45.880)

It's kind of funny, like I read these,

Saagar Enjeti (26:47.920)

I'm obsessed with these books by Robert Caro,

Lex Fridman (26:50.920)

the biographies of Lyndon Johnson.

Saagar Enjeti (26:52.400)

He's written like 5,000 pages so far

Lex Fridman (26:54.200)

and it's still not done.

Saagar Enjeti (26:55.440)

Okay, so like these are like books I base my life on.

Lex Fridman (26:59.280)

And look, these are Washington

Lex Fridman (27:02.640)

and the story of the post New Deal era and forward.

Lex Fridman (27:05.480)

Not much has changed.

Saagar Enjeti (27:06.760)

Like the Senate is still the Senate.

Lex Fridman (27:09.000)

So many of the same problems with the Senate

Saagar Enjeti (27:10.840)

are still there in some cases.

Lex Fridman (27:13.280)

No, not anymore.

Lex Fridman (27:14.480)

But for a while, some of the people who were there

Lex Fridman (27:16.600)

with Johnson are actually still,

Saagar Enjeti (27:18.800)

one of them is the president of the United States,

Lex Fridman (27:20.480)

just a joke.

Lex Fridman (27:21.520)

And you think about also,

Lex Fridman (27:24.560)

same with the media relationship, right?

Saagar Enjeti (27:26.320)

Like there's this media really,

Lex Fridman (27:27.760)

they may have come and gone.

Saagar Enjeti (27:29.260)

Like the people who were in the media

Lex Fridman (27:31.800)

and who were cozy with the administration officials,

Saagar Enjeti (27:34.920)

I mean, they just recreated themselves.

Lex Fridman (27:37.240)

It's like an ecosystem which doesn't change.

Lex Fridman (27:41.000)

And that's why I'm like,

Lex Fridman (27:43.240)

oh, it's not that was a specific time.

Saagar Enjeti (27:46.160)

That's just DC.

Lex Fridman (27:47.400)

Like that is DC because of the way

Saagar Enjeti (27:51.520)

the system is architected.

Lex Fridman (27:53.000)

It's pretty much been that way since like 1908,

Saagar Enjeti (27:55.560)

whenever like Teddy Roosevelt was dining

Lex Fridman (27:58.300)

with these journalists and he would yell at them.

Lex Fridman (27:59.920)

And then he would go over to the society house.

Lex Fridman (28:02.560)

And like in many ways,

Saagar Enjeti (28:04.120)

that's now instead of going to Henry Adams's house,

Lex Fridman (28:06.580)

like the people are congregating in Calorama,

Saagar Enjeti (28:10.400)

which is the richest neighborhood here

Lex Fridman (28:12.120)

at somebody else's house.

Saagar Enjeti (28:13.280)

Like it's the same thing.

Lex Fridman (28:14.920)

So you have to think about the system

Lex Fridman (28:16.520)

and then the incentives within that system

Lex Fridman (28:18.680)

about what the outcomes that they're producing.

Saagar Enjeti (28:20.520)

If you actually wanna think about

Lex Fridman (28:21.840)

how can I change this from the outside?

Saagar Enjeti (28:23.760)

That's also why it's very difficult to change

Lex Fridman (28:25.680)

because the system is designed

Saagar Enjeti (28:27.640)

in order to produce actually pretty specific outcomes

Lex Fridman (28:31.020)

that can only be changed in extraordinary times.

Saagar Enjeti (28:33.800)

Yeah, and sometimes it's hard to predict

Lex Fridman (28:37.300)

what kind of outcomes will result from the incentive,

Lex Fridman (28:41.260)

the system that you create, right?

Lex Fridman (28:42.980)

In the case, because especially

Saagar Enjeti (28:44.420)

when it's novel kind of situations.

Lex Fridman (28:46.180)

With Trump, he actually created a pretty novel situation.

Lex Fridman (28:49.260)

And a lot of the things that we've seen

Lex Fridman (28:53.580)

in the 20th century were very novel systems

Lex Fridman (28:56.380)

where people were very optimistic about the outcomes, right?

Lex Fridman (28:59.780)

And then it turned out to not have the results

Saagar Enjeti (29:02.780)

that they predicted.

Lex Fridman (29:04.940)

In terms of things being unchanged

Saagar Enjeti (29:06.620)

for the past 100 years and so on,

Lex Fridman (29:08.520)

can you like Wikipedia style

Saagar Enjeti (29:12.060)

or maybe like in a musical form,

Lex Fridman (29:14.700)

like I'm only a bill, describe to me.

Saagar Enjeti (29:17.100)

I still sing that to my head sometimes.

Lex Fridman (29:20.700)

I'm just a bill.

Saagar Enjeti (29:25.780)

I don't know what the rest of the song is,

Lex Fridman (29:27.180)

but let's leave that to people's imagination.

Lex Fridman (29:30.860)

How does this whole thing work?

Lex Fridman (29:33.020)

How does the US political system work?

Saagar Enjeti (29:35.020)

The three branches is how do you think

Lex Fridman (29:37.660)

about the system we have now?

Saagar Enjeti (29:40.740)

If you were to try to describe,

Lex Fridman (29:42.500)

if aliens showed up and asked you like,

Saagar Enjeti (29:46.320)

they didn't have time, so this is an elevator thing.

Lex Fridman (29:49.740)

Should we destroy you as you plead to avoid destruction?

Lex Fridman (29:55.580)

Well, how would you describe how this thing works?

Lex Fridman (29:58.660)

I would say we come together and we pick the people

Saagar Enjeti (2:00:02.320)

cause it takes time to build trust in institutions

Lex Fridman (2:00:06.360)

and it takes time to build new institutions.

Saagar Enjeti (2:00:08.440)

My main thing I would say is public legitimacy

Lex Fridman (2:00:10.560)

as a concept is not gonna be there in mass media anymore

Saagar Enjeti (2:00:13.220)

because of the balkanization of audiences.

Lex Fridman (2:00:15.960)

I mean, think about it, right?

Saagar Enjeti (2:00:16.920)

Like this is like Lesion, the classic stuff

Lex Fridman (2:00:20.320)

around a thousand true fans,

Saagar Enjeti (2:00:21.920)

or no, sorry, like a hundred true fans even now.

Lex Fridman (2:00:24.500)

Like you can make a living on the internet

Saagar Enjeti (2:00:26.000)

just talking to a hundred people.

Lex Fridman (2:00:27.600)

If as long as they're all high frequency traders,

Saagar Enjeti (2:00:29.400)

some of the highest paid people on substack,

Lex Fridman (2:00:32.480)

they don't have that many subs.

Lex Fridman (2:00:34.240)

It's just that they're Wall Street guys, right?

Lex Fridman (2:00:36.080)

So people pay a lot of money.

Saagar Enjeti (2:00:37.160)

Again, that's great.

Lex Fridman (2:00:38.640)

So what you will have is an increasing balkanization

Saagar Enjeti (2:00:42.060)

of the internet, of audiences and of niches.

Lex Fridman (2:00:46.120)

People will become increasingly famous within us.

Saagar Enjeti (2:00:48.680)

You will become astoundingly famous.

Lex Fridman (2:00:51.040)

I'm sure you've noticed this with your fan base.

Saagar Enjeti (2:00:52.480)

I certainly have with mine.

Lex Fridman (2:00:53.400)

Like 99% of people have no idea who I am,

Lex Fridman (2:00:56.040)

but when somebody meets, they're like,

Lex Fridman (2:00:57.000)

oh my God, I watch your show every day, right?

Lex Fridman (2:01:01.080)

Like it's the only thing I watch for news, right?

Lex Fridman (2:01:04.100)

Like instead of casually famous, if that makes sense,

Lex Fridman (2:01:07.000)

but like, oh yeah, it's like Alec Baldwin, you know?

Lex Fridman (2:01:09.400)

Whoa, shit, that's Alec Baldwin.

Lex Fridman (2:01:10.640)

But you're not like, oh shit, I love you Alec Baldwin.

Lex Fridman (2:01:14.240)

This is a Ben Smith of the New York Times,

Saagar Enjeti (2:01:16.840)

actually he wrote this column.

Lex Fridman (2:01:17.800)

He's like, the future is everybody will be famous,

Lex Fridman (2:01:20.180)

but only to a small group of people.

Lex Fridman (2:01:22.760)

And I think that is true.

Lex Fridman (2:01:24.160)

But again, I don't decry it.

Lex Fridman (2:01:26.120)

I think it's great because I think that the more

Saagar Enjeti (2:01:28.440)

that that happens, the more engaged people will be

Lex Fridman (2:01:31.000)

and it empowers different voices to be able to come in

Lex Fridman (2:01:34.560)

and then possibly, I wouldn't say destroy,

Lex Fridman (2:01:36.520)

but compete against.

Saagar Enjeti (2:01:37.960)

I mean, look at Joe.

Lex Fridman (2:01:39.200)

Joe is more powerful than CNN and MSNBC and Fox

Saagar Enjeti (2:01:44.040)

all put together.

Lex Fridman (2:01:45.100)

That gives me like immense inspiration.

Saagar Enjeti (2:01:47.560)

Like he created the space for me to succeed.

Lex Fridman (2:01:50.040)

And I told him that when I met him, I was like,

Saagar Enjeti (2:01:52.360)

dude, like I listened to his podcast when I was like young.

Lex Fridman (2:01:55.480)

And like, and I remember like when I got to meet him

Lex Fridman (2:01:58.020)

and all that, and I told him this on this pod,

Lex Fridman (2:02:00.280)

I was like, I didn't know people were millions

Saagar Enjeti (2:02:02.840)

were willing to listen to a guy talk about chimps

Lex Fridman (2:02:05.380)

for three straight hours, including me.

Saagar Enjeti (2:02:08.080)

I didn't know that I could be one of those people.

Lex Fridman (2:02:09.760)

Yeah, me too.

Saagar Enjeti (2:02:10.600)

I learned something about myself from his show, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:02:12.760)

And so by creating that space, I'd be like, wait,

Saagar Enjeti (2:02:16.000)

there's a hunger here.

Lex Fridman (2:02:17.460)

Like he showed us all the way

Lex Fridman (2:02:20.240)

and none of us will ever again be as famous as Rogan

Lex Fridman (2:02:22.400)

because he was the first and that's fine

Saagar Enjeti (2:02:24.680)

because he created the umbrella ecosystem

Lex Fridman (2:02:27.460)

for us all to thrive.

Saagar Enjeti (2:02:29.100)

That is where I see like a great amount of hope

Lex Fridman (2:02:32.400)

within that story.

Saagar Enjeti (2:02:33.420)

Yeah, and the cool thing, he also supports that ecosystem.

Lex Fridman (2:02:35.880)

He's such a. He's so generous.

Saagar Enjeti (2:02:38.160)

One of the things he paved the way out for me

Lex Fridman (2:02:40.960)

is to show that you can just be honest, publicly honest,

Lex Fridman (2:02:47.420)

and not jealous of other people's success,

Lex Fridman (2:02:51.320)

but instead be supportive and all those kinds of things,

Saagar Enjeti (2:02:54.620)

just like loving towards others.

Lex Fridman (2:02:56.140)

He's been an inspiration.

Saagar Enjeti (2:02:57.360)

I mean, to the comics community,

Lex Fridman (2:03:01.280)

I think there are a bunch of, before that,

Saagar Enjeti (2:03:04.520)

I think there were all a bunch of competitive haters

Lex Fridman (2:03:06.920)

towards each other.

Saagar Enjeti (2:03:07.760)

Yeah, and now he's like just injected love.

Lex Fridman (2:03:11.240)

They're like, they're still like many are still resistant,

Lex Fridman (2:03:13.600)

but they're like, they can't help it

Lex Fridman (2:03:15.080)

because he's such a huge voice.

Saagar Enjeti (2:03:17.120)

He like forces them to be like loving towards each other.

Lex Fridman (2:03:20.160)

And the same, I tried to,

Saagar Enjeti (2:03:22.420)

one of the reasons I wanted to start this podcast

Lex Fridman (2:03:26.160)

was to try to, I wanted to be like do what Joe Rogan did,

Lex Fridman (2:03:31.560)

but for the scientific community,

Lex Fridman (2:03:33.920)

like my little circle of scientific community of like,

Saagar Enjeti (2:03:37.000)

like let's support each other.

Lex Fridman (2:03:38.580)

Yeah, well, like Avi Loeb,

Saagar Enjeti (2:03:40.360)

I would have no idea who he was if it wasn't for you.

Lex Fridman (2:03:42.880)

I mean, I assume you put him in touch with Joe.

Saagar Enjeti (2:03:44.880)

He went on Joe's show.

Lex Fridman (2:03:45.720)

I had him on my show.

Saagar Enjeti (2:03:46.960)

Like millions of people would have no idea who he was

Lex Fridman (2:03:49.520)

if it wasn't for you.

Saagar Enjeti (2:03:50.360)

Just by the way, in terms of deep state

Lex Fridman (2:03:51.960)

and shadow government, Avi Loeb has to do with aliens.

Saagar Enjeti (2:03:54.760)

You better believe Joe.

Lex Fridman (2:03:56.760)

Dude, the last thing I sent to him

Saagar Enjeti (2:03:58.400)

was the American Airlines audio.

Lex Fridman (2:04:00.500)

Did you see that?

Saagar Enjeti (2:04:02.120)

The pilots who were, oh my God, dude, this is amazing.

Lex Fridman (2:04:04.960)

So like, this American Airlines flight crew

Saagar Enjeti (2:04:09.240)

was over New Mexico, this happened five or six days ago.

Lex Fridman (2:04:12.240)

And the guy comes and he goes,

Lex Fridman (2:04:14.400)

hey, do you have any targets up here?

Lex Fridman (2:04:16.320)

A large cylindrical object just flew over me.

Saagar Enjeti (2:04:20.560)

Okay, so this happens, so this happens.

Lex Fridman (2:04:23.200)

Then a guy or like a radio catcher

Saagar Enjeti (2:04:26.520)

records this and posts it online.

Lex Fridman (2:04:28.960)

American Airlines confirms that this is authentic audio.

Lex Fridman (2:04:33.440)

And they go, all further questions

Lex Fridman (2:04:35.400)

should be referred to the FBI.

Lex Fridman (2:04:37.120)

So then, okay, American Airlines just confirmed

Lex Fridman (2:04:39.760)

it's a legitimate transmission.

Saagar Enjeti (2:04:41.520)

FBI, then the FAA comes out and says,

Lex Fridman (2:04:45.760)

we were tracking no objects in the vicinity of this plane

Saagar Enjeti (2:04:51.040)

at the time of the transmission.

Lex Fridman (2:04:52.480)

So the only plausible explanation that online sleuths

Saagar Enjeti (2:04:55.480)

have been able to say is maybe he saw a Learjet,

Lex Fridman (2:04:58.840)

which was, you know, using like open source data.

Saagar Enjeti (2:05:02.200)

FAA rules that out.

Lex Fridman (2:05:03.960)

So what was it?

Saagar Enjeti (2:05:05.280)

He saw a large cylindrical object.

Lex Fridman (2:05:07.380)

While he was mid flight, American Airlines,

Lex Fridman (2:05:09.680)

but you can go online, listen to the audio yourself.

Lex Fridman (2:05:12.960)

This is a 100% no shit transmission

Saagar Enjeti (2:05:15.680)

confirmed by American Airlines of a commercial pilot

Lex Fridman (2:05:19.820)

over New Mexico, seeing a quote unquote,

Saagar Enjeti (2:05:23.200)

large cylindrical object in the air.

Lex Fridman (2:05:26.040)

Like I said, when we first started talking,

Saagar Enjeti (2:05:28.200)

I've never believed more in UFOs and aliens.

Lex Fridman (2:05:31.160)

Yeah, this is awesome.

Saagar Enjeti (2:05:33.200)

I just wish both American Airlines, FBI,

Lex Fridman (2:05:37.520)

and government would be more transparent.

Saagar Enjeti (2:05:40.000)

Like there would be voices, and I know it sounds ridiculous,

Lex Fridman (2:05:43.280)

but the kind of transparency that you see,

Saagar Enjeti (2:05:45.280)

maybe not Joe Rogan, he's like overly transparent.

Lex Fridman (2:05:48.920)

He's just a comic really, but just the, I don't know,

Saagar Enjeti (2:05:52.440)

like a podcast from the FBI, just like being honest,

Lex Fridman (2:05:56.480)

like excited, confused.

Saagar Enjeti (2:05:58.980)

I'm sure that they're being overly cautious

Lex Fridman (2:06:03.120)

about their release information.

Saagar Enjeti (2:06:04.520)

I'm sure there's a lot of information

Lex Fridman (2:06:05.960)

that would inspire the public,

Saagar Enjeti (2:06:07.560)

that would inspire trust in institutions

Lex Fridman (2:06:09.500)

that will not damage national security.

Saagar Enjeti (2:06:12.320)

Like it seems to me obvious,

Lex Fridman (2:06:14.240)

and the reason they're not sharing it

Saagar Enjeti (2:06:15.480)

is because of this momentum of bureaucracy,

Lex Fridman (2:06:17.800)

of caution and so on.

Lex Fridman (2:06:19.380)

But there's probably so much cool information

Lex Fridman (2:06:21.560)

that the government has.

Saagar Enjeti (2:06:22.720)

The way I almost, I wouldn't say it confirmed it's real,

Lex Fridman (2:06:26.620)

but Trump didn't declassify it.

Saagar Enjeti (2:06:28.960)

Like you know that if there was ever a president

Lex Fridman (2:06:31.320)

that actually wanted to get to the bottom of it, it was him.

Saagar Enjeti (2:06:34.800)

I mean, he didn't declassify it, man.

Lex Fridman (2:06:37.120)

And people begged him to.

Saagar Enjeti (2:06:38.400)

I know for a fact,

Lex Fridman (2:06:39.720)

because I pushed to try and make this happen,

Saagar Enjeti (2:06:41.960)

that some people did speak to him about it.

Lex Fridman (2:06:44.360)

And he was like, no, I'm not gonna do it.

Saagar Enjeti (2:06:46.400)

So.

Lex Fridman (2:06:47.240)

He might be afraid.

Saagar Enjeti (2:06:48.560)

That's what I mean, though.

Lex Fridman (2:06:49.720)

They were probably all telling him,

Saagar Enjeti (2:06:50.640)

they're like, sir, you can't do this, you know, all this,

Lex Fridman (2:06:52.480)

like, wow, and I get that.

Lex Fridman (2:06:53.780)

And there's this legislation written at COVID

Lex Fridman (2:06:56.400)

that like they have six months to release it, man.

Lex Fridman (2:06:58.640)

Is that real?

Lex Fridman (2:06:59.480)

What is that?

Lex Fridman (2:07:00.320)

Is that a bunch of bullshit?

Lex Fridman (2:07:01.140)

I think it's bullshit.

Saagar Enjeti (2:07:01.980)

There's so many different levels of classification

Lex Fridman (2:07:04.280)

that people need to understand.

Saagar Enjeti (2:07:05.840)

I mean, look, I read John Podesta.

Lex Fridman (2:07:07.960)

He was the chief of staff to Bill Clinton.

Saagar Enjeti (2:07:10.320)

He's a big UFO guy.

Lex Fridman (2:07:11.560)

He tried.

Saagar Enjeti (2:07:12.960)

Like him and Clinton tried to get some of this information

Lex Fridman (2:07:15.920)

and they could not get any of it.

Lex Fridman (2:07:17.880)

And we're talking about the president

Lex Fridman (2:07:19.680)

and the White House chief of staff.

Saagar Enjeti (2:07:21.340)

Well, there's a whole bureaucracy,

Lex Fridman (2:07:22.560)

but just like you were saying, with intent.

Saagar Enjeti (2:07:24.640)

You have to be like, that has to be your focus

Lex Fridman (2:07:27.080)

because there's a whole bureaucracy built around secrecy

Saagar Enjeti (2:07:29.840)

for probably for a good reason.

Lex Fridman (2:07:31.160)

So to get through to the information,

Saagar Enjeti (2:07:33.740)

there's a whole like paperwork process,

Lex Fridman (2:07:35.440)

all that kind of stuff.

Saagar Enjeti (2:07:36.280)

You can't just walk in and get the,

Lex Fridman (2:07:37.880)

unless again, with intention, that becomes your thing.

Saagar Enjeti (2:07:40.960)

Like let's revolutionize this thing.

Lex Fridman (2:07:43.960)

And then you get only so many things.

Saagar Enjeti (2:07:45.920)

It's sad that the bureaucracy has gotten so bulky,

Lex Fridman (2:07:50.800)

but I think the hopeful messages

Saagar Enjeti (2:07:53.040)

from earlier in our conversation,

Lex Fridman (2:07:54.400)

it seems like a single person can't fix it,

Lex Fridman (2:07:57.760)

but if you hire the right team, it feels like you can.

Lex Fridman (2:08:01.960)

Can't fix everything.

Saagar Enjeti (2:08:03.000)

I don't wanna give people unrealistic expectations.

Lex Fridman (2:08:05.540)

You can fix a lot, especially in crisis,

Saagar Enjeti (2:08:07.940)

you can remake America.

Lex Fridman (2:08:09.200)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:08:10.040)

And the reason I know that

Lex Fridman (2:08:10.860)

is because it's already happened twice.

Saagar Enjeti (2:08:12.560)

FDR, or in modern history, FDR and JFK.

Lex Fridman (2:08:17.400)

Sorry, FDR and JFK's assassination, LBJ.

Saagar Enjeti (2:08:20.880)

Two hyper competent men who understood government,

Lex Fridman (2:08:25.480)

who understood personnel,

Lex Fridman (2:08:27.120)

and coincidentally were friends.

Lex Fridman (2:08:28.440)

I love this.

Saagar Enjeti (2:08:29.280)

I don't think actually people understand this.

Lex Fridman (2:08:31.000)

FDR met Johnson three days after he won his election

Saagar Enjeti (2:08:37.520)

to Congress, special election.

Lex Fridman (2:08:38.560)

He was only 29 years old.

Lex Fridman (2:08:40.300)

And he left that meeting and called somebody and said,

Lex Fridman (2:08:44.220)

this young man is gonna be president

Saagar Enjeti (2:08:45.640)

of the United States someday.

Lex Fridman (2:08:46.920)

Like even then, like what was within him

Saagar Enjeti (2:08:50.080)

to understand and to recognize that.

Lex Fridman (2:08:51.800)

And sometimes Johnson, as a young member of Congress,

Saagar Enjeti (2:08:54.360)

would come and have breakfast with FDR,

Lex Fridman (2:08:56.280)

like just to the great political minds of the 20th century,

Saagar Enjeti (2:09:00.080)

just sitting there talking.

Lex Fridman (2:09:01.320)

Like I would give anything to know what was happening.

Saagar Enjeti (2:09:04.720)

Yeah, I hope they were real with each other.

Lex Fridman (2:09:06.320)

And there was like a genuine human connection, right?

Saagar Enjeti (2:09:08.480)

That seems to be the...

Lex Fridman (2:09:09.960)

Well, Johnson wasn't a genuine guy,

Lex Fridman (2:09:11.400)

so probably certainly not.

Lex Fridman (2:09:13.540)

Well, I need to read those thousands of pages.

Saagar Enjeti (2:09:16.460)

I've been way too focused on Hitler.

Lex Fridman (2:09:20.800)

I was gonna say, one of my goals in coming to this

Saagar Enjeti (2:09:22.880)

is I was like, I gotta get Lex into two things,

Lex Fridman (2:09:24.560)

because I know he'll love it.

Saagar Enjeti (2:09:25.600)

I know he'll love LBJ,

Lex Fridman (2:09:27.320)

if he takes the time to read the books.

Lex Fridman (2:09:29.240)

Really?

Lex Fridman (2:09:30.080)

100%.

Saagar Enjeti (2:09:31.160)

He's the most...

Lex Fridman (2:09:32.000)

Of all the presidents...

Saagar Enjeti (2:09:32.820)

I didn't say you'll love him,

Lex Fridman (2:09:33.680)

but you'll love the books about him.

Saagar Enjeti (2:09:34.960)

Because the books are a story of America,

Lex Fridman (2:09:37.520)

the story of politics, the story of power.

Saagar Enjeti (2:09:39.600)

This is the guy who wrote the Power Broker.

Lex Fridman (2:09:41.280)

These books are up there with

Saagar Enjeti (2:09:44.000)

Decline and Follow the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon,

Lex Fridman (2:09:47.040)

in terms of how power works.

Saagar Enjeti (2:09:48.840)

Study of power.

Lex Fridman (2:09:49.780)

Exactly.

Saagar Enjeti (2:09:50.620)

No, that's why Carroll wrote the books.

Lex Fridman (2:09:52.880)

And that's why the books are not really about LBJ,

Saagar Enjeti (2:09:55.600)

they're about power in Washington,

Lex Fridman (2:09:57.560)

and about the consolidation of power post New Deal,

Saagar Enjeti (2:10:00.200)

the consolidation then,

Lex Fridman (2:10:01.760)

where they're using the levers of power like Johnson knew

Saagar Enjeti (2:10:04.640)

in order to change the House of Representatives,

Lex Fridman (2:10:07.980)

the Senate of the United States,

Lex Fridman (2:10:09.520)

and ultimately the presidency of the United States,

Lex Fridman (2:10:11.480)

which ended in failure and disaster with Vietnam.

Saagar Enjeti (2:10:13.920)

Don't get me wrong.

Lex Fridman (2:10:14.960)

But he's overlooked for so many of the incredible things

Saagar Enjeti (2:10:18.860)

that he did with civil rights.

Lex Fridman (2:10:19.960)

Nobody else could have done it.

Saagar Enjeti (2:10:21.520)

No one else could have gotten it done.

Lex Fridman (2:10:23.960)

And the second thing is,

Saagar Enjeti (2:10:25.320)

we gotta get you into World War I.

Lex Fridman (2:10:27.280)

We gotta get you more into World War I,

Saagar Enjeti (2:10:29.640)

because I think that's a rabbit hole,

Lex Fridman (2:10:31.860)

which I know you're a Dan Carlin fan.

Lex Fridman (2:10:33.600)

So blueprint for Armageddon.

Lex Fridman (2:10:35.320)

Yeah, it's good.

Saagar Enjeti (2:10:36.160)

Guaranteed.

Lex Fridman (2:10:36.980)

But...

Lex Fridman (2:10:37.820)

But there's fewer evil people there.

Lex Fridman (2:10:39.980)

Yes, but...

Lex Fridman (2:10:41.560)

But that's what actually...

Lex Fridman (2:10:43.720)

There's a banality of that evil,

Saagar Enjeti (2:10:45.520)

of the Kaiser and of the Austro Hungarians.

Lex Fridman (2:10:50.240)

And of...

Saagar Enjeti (2:10:51.120)

See, I like World War I more because it was unresolved.

Lex Fridman (2:10:54.440)

It's one of those periods I was talking to you about,

Saagar Enjeti (2:10:56.040)

about sometimes you're called and you fail.

Lex Fridman (2:10:58.840)

That's what happened.

Saagar Enjeti (2:10:59.680)

I mean, 50 million people were killed

Lex Fridman (2:11:02.240)

in the most horrific way.

Saagar Enjeti (2:11:03.960)

People literally drowned in the mud,

Lex Fridman (2:11:06.400)

like an entire generation.

Saagar Enjeti (2:11:09.220)

One stat I love is that,

Lex Fridman (2:11:11.600)

Britain didn't need a draft till 1916.

Saagar Enjeti (2:11:14.760)

Like they went two years of throwing people

Lex Fridman (2:11:18.000)

into barbed wire voluntarily.

Lex Fridman (2:11:20.620)

And because people love their country

Lex Fridman (2:11:22.640)

and they love the king,

Lex Fridman (2:11:23.800)

and they thought they were going against the Kaiser.

Lex Fridman (2:11:26.320)

It's just like that conflict to me,

Saagar Enjeti (2:11:28.480)

I just can't read enough about it.

Lex Fridman (2:11:30.160)

Also just like births Russian Revolution, you know.

Saagar Enjeti (2:11:33.320)

Yeah, I mean...

Lex Fridman (2:11:34.160)

Hitler.

Saagar Enjeti (2:11:35.000)

You can't talk about World War II without World War I.

Lex Fridman (2:11:37.000)

Right.

Lex Fridman (2:11:37.840)

And I'm obsessed with the conflict.

Lex Fridman (2:11:39.200)

I've read way too many books about it.

Saagar Enjeti (2:11:40.800)

For this reason is, it's unresolved.

Lex Fridman (2:11:42.880)

And like the roots of so much of even our current problems

Lex Fridman (2:11:46.160)

are happened in Versailles, right?

Lex Fridman (2:11:47.800)

Like Vietnam is because of the Treaty of Versailles.

Saagar Enjeti (2:11:51.720)

Many ways the Middle Eastern problems

Lex Fridman (2:11:53.460)

and the division of the states there.

Saagar Enjeti (2:11:55.300)

The Treaty of Versailles

Lex Fridman (2:11:56.520)

in terms of the penalties against Germany.

Lex Fridman (2:11:58.760)

But also they fall out from those wars

Lex Fridman (2:12:01.780)

on the French and the German population,

Saagar Enjeti (2:12:03.900)

or the French and the British populations

Lex Fridman (2:12:05.360)

and their reluctance for war in 1939 or 1938.

Lex Fridman (2:12:10.240)

When Neville Chamberlain goes, right?

Lex Fridman (2:12:12.320)

Like that's one of the things people don't understand

Saagar Enjeti (2:12:14.040)

is the actual appetite of the British public at that time.

Lex Fridman (2:12:16.500)

They didn't want to go to war.

Saagar Enjeti (2:12:17.720)

Only Churchill, he was the only one

Lex Fridman (2:12:19.240)

in the gathering storm, right?

Saagar Enjeti (2:12:21.480)

Like being like, hey, this is really bad and all of that.

Lex Fridman (2:12:24.940)

And then even in the United States,

Saagar Enjeti (2:12:26.440)

our streak of isolationism, which sweat.

Lex Fridman (2:12:28.820)

I mean, things were because of that conflict.

Saagar Enjeti (2:12:32.080)

We were convinced as a country

Lex Fridman (2:12:34.720)

that we wanted nothing to do with Europe and its problems.

Lex Fridman (2:12:37.960)

And in many ways that contributed

Lex Fridman (2:12:39.460)

to the proliferation of Hitler and more.

Lex Fridman (2:12:41.280)

So like I'm obsessed with World War I for this reason,

Lex Fridman (2:12:43.940)

which is that it's just like the root.

Saagar Enjeti (2:12:46.040)

It's like the culmination of the monarchies,

Lex Fridman (2:12:48.620)

then the fall, and then just all the shit spills out

Saagar Enjeti (2:12:52.080)

from there for like a hundred years.

Lex Fridman (2:12:53.600)

So World War I is like the most important shift

Saagar Enjeti (2:12:56.260)

in human history versus World War II

Lex Fridman (2:12:58.680)

is like a consequence of that.

Saagar Enjeti (2:13:00.400)

Yeah, so I have a degree in security studies

Lex Fridman (2:13:03.040)

from Georgetown.

Lex Fridman (2:13:03.880)

And one of the thing is that we would focus a lot on that

Lex Fridman (2:13:06.120)

is like war and, but also like the complexity around war.

Lex Fridman (2:13:11.080)

And it's funny.

Lex Fridman (2:13:12.280)

We never spent that much time on World War II

Saagar Enjeti (2:13:15.040)

because it was actually quite of a clean war.

Lex Fridman (2:13:17.420)

It's a very atypical war as in the war object,

Saagar Enjeti (2:13:21.620)

which we learned from World War I

Lex Fridman (2:13:23.240)

is we must inflict suffering on the German people

Lex Fridman (2:13:26.600)

and invade the borders of Germany and destroy Hitler.

Lex Fridman (2:13:30.520)

Like the center of gravity is the Nazi regime and Hitler.

Lex Fridman (2:13:34.280)

So it had a very basic begin and end.

Lex Fridman (2:13:37.360)

Begin, liberate France, invade Germany,

Saagar Enjeti (2:13:40.620)

destroy Hitler, reoccupy, rebuild.

Lex Fridman (2:13:44.020)

World War I, what are you fighting for?

Saagar Enjeti (2:13:46.940)

Like, are you, I mean, and nobody even knew.

Lex Fridman (2:13:49.520)

You can go to the German general staff.

Saagar Enjeti (2:13:51.240)

They were like, even in 1917, they're like,

Lex Fridman (2:13:53.920)

the war was worth it because now we have Luxembourg.

Lex Fridman (2:13:56.160)

I'm like, really?

Lex Fridman (2:13:57.000)

Like you killed 2 million of your citizens

Saagar Enjeti (2:13:58.360)

for fucking Luxembourg and like half of Belgium,

Lex Fridman (2:14:01.040)

which is now like a pond.

Lex Fridman (2:14:02.640)

And same thing, the French are like,

Lex Fridman (2:14:04.960)

well, the French more so they're defending their borders,

Lex Fridman (2:14:07.480)

but like, what are the British fighting for?

Lex Fridman (2:14:09.480)

Why did hundreds of thousands of British people die?

Saagar Enjeti (2:14:11.520)

In order to preserve the balance of power in Europe

Lex Fridman (2:14:14.320)

and prevent the Kaiser from having a port

Lex Fridman (2:14:17.440)

on the English Channel?

Lex Fridman (2:14:19.300)

Like really, that's why?

Saagar Enjeti (2:14:21.440)

That's more what wars are is they become these like

Lex Fridman (2:14:24.400)

atypical, they become these protracted conflicts

Saagar Enjeti (2:14:29.400)

with a necessary diplomatic resolution.

Lex Fridman (2:14:33.240)

It's not clean, it's very dirty.

Saagar Enjeti (2:14:36.240)

It usually leads in the outbreak of another war

Lex Fridman (2:14:38.880)

and another war and another war

Lex Fridman (2:14:39.960)

and a slow burn of ethnic conflict, which bubbles up.

Lex Fridman (2:14:43.040)

So that's why I look at that one even,

Saagar Enjeti (2:14:45.800)

because it's more typical of warfare and how it works.

Lex Fridman (2:14:49.040)

Exactly, it's kind of interesting.

Saagar Enjeti (2:14:51.200)

You're making me realize that World War II

Lex Fridman (2:14:54.320)

is one of the rare wars where you can make a strong case

Saagar Enjeti (2:14:57.800)

for it's a fight of good versus evil.

Lex Fridman (2:14:59.600)

Yeah, just war theory, obviously.

Saagar Enjeti (2:15:01.120)

Like, yeah, they're literally slaughtering Jews.

Lex Fridman (2:15:02.840)

Like, we have to kill them.

Lex Fridman (2:15:04.280)

And there's one person doing it.

Lex Fridman (2:15:05.800)

I mean, there's one person at the core.

Saagar Enjeti (2:15:08.120)

Yeah, that's fascinating.

Lex Fridman (2:15:11.280)

And it's short and there's a clear aggression.

Saagar Enjeti (2:15:15.620)

It's interesting that Dan Carlin

Lex Fridman (2:15:18.720)

has been avoiding Hitler as well.

Saagar Enjeti (2:15:20.980)

Yeah, probably for this reason.

Lex Fridman (2:15:23.960)

Probably for this reason.

Saagar Enjeti (2:15:25.320)

I mean, but it's complicated too,

Lex Fridman (2:15:27.360)

because there's a pressure.

Saagar Enjeti (2:15:28.920)

That guy has his demons.

Lex Fridman (2:15:30.600)

I love Dan so much.

Lex Fridman (2:15:31.680)

So this is the, I don't know if you feel this pressure,

Lex Fridman (2:15:36.720)

but as a creative, he feels the pressure

Saagar Enjeti (2:15:39.120)

of being maybe not necessarily correct,

Lex Fridman (2:15:43.900)

but maybe correct in the sense that his understanding,

Saagar Enjeti (2:15:48.520)

he gets to the bottom of why something happened,

Lex Fridman (2:15:53.520)

of why something happened, of what really happened.

Saagar Enjeti (2:15:57.860)

Get to the bottom of it

Lex Fridman (2:15:59.540)

before he can say something publicly about it.

Lex Fridman (2:16:02.540)

And he is tortured by that burden.

Lex Fridman (2:16:04.900)

I know, you know, he takes so much shit

Saagar Enjeti (2:16:06.980)

from the historical community for no reason.

Lex Fridman (2:16:09.220)

I think he's the greatest popularizer, quote unquote,

Saagar Enjeti (2:16:12.180)

of history.

Lex Fridman (2:16:13.340)

And I wish more people in history understood it that way.

Saagar Enjeti (2:16:17.100)

He was an inspiration to me.

Lex Fridman (2:16:18.420)

I mean, I do some videos sometimes on my Instagram now

Saagar Enjeti (2:16:21.220)

where I'll do like a book tour.

Lex Fridman (2:16:22.980)

I'll be like, here's my bookshelf of these presidents.

Lex Fridman (2:16:24.680)

And like, here's what I learned from this book

Lex Fridman (2:16:26.140)

and this book and this.

Lex Fridman (2:16:26.980)

And that was very much like a skill I learned from him

Lex Fridman (2:16:30.700)

of being like, you know, as a historian writes.

Saagar Enjeti (2:16:33.940)

You know, I just love the way he talks.

Lex Fridman (2:16:35.900)

He's like, in the mud.

Saagar Enjeti (2:16:38.180)

I mean, you know, he'll be like, quote, quote.

Lex Fridman (2:16:40.900)

I just, I love, he inspires me, man.

Saagar Enjeti (2:16:44.660)

He really does to like learn more.

Lex Fridman (2:16:46.660)

And I've read, I bought a lot of books because of Dan Carlin.

Saagar Enjeti (2:16:49.600)

He'll be, you know, because of this guy,

Lex Fridman (2:16:50.940)

because of that guy, in terms of, you know,

Saagar Enjeti (2:16:53.260)

another thing he does, which nobody else,

Lex Fridman (2:16:54.940)

and I'm probably guilty of this,

Saagar Enjeti (2:16:56.220)

he focuses on the actual people involved.

Lex Fridman (2:16:59.420)

Like he would tell the story of actual British soldiers

Saagar Enjeti (2:17:03.300)

in World War I.

Lex Fridman (2:17:04.560)

And I probably, and maybe you're guilty of this too,

Saagar Enjeti (2:17:07.100)

we over focus on what was happening

Lex Fridman (2:17:09.740)

in the German general staff,

Lex Fridman (2:17:11.020)

what was happening in the British general staff.

Lex Fridman (2:17:12.760)

And he doesn't make that mistake.

Saagar Enjeti (2:17:14.220)

That's why he tells real history.

Lex Fridman (2:17:16.100)

Yeah, and it gives it a feeling.

Saagar Enjeti (2:17:18.740)

The result is that there's a feeling,

Lex Fridman (2:17:20.540)

you get the feeling of what it was like to be there.

Saagar Enjeti (2:17:22.940)

Exactly.

Lex Fridman (2:17:24.300)

You know, you're becoming,

Saagar Enjeti (2:17:25.960)

quickly becoming more and more popular.

Lex Fridman (2:17:30.240)

Speaking about political issues in part,

Lex Fridman (2:17:34.100)

do you feel a burden, like almost like

Lex Fridman (2:17:39.540)

the prison of your prior convictions

Saagar Enjeti (2:17:43.660)

of having to, being popular with a certain kind of audience

Lex Fridman (2:17:47.660)

and thereby unable to really think outside the box?

Saagar Enjeti (2:17:51.380)

I had, I've really struggled with this.

Lex Fridman (2:17:54.440)

I came up in right wing media.

Saagar Enjeti (2:17:56.380)

I came up a much more doctrinaire conservative

Lex Fridman (2:18:01.060)

in my professional life.

Saagar Enjeti (2:18:02.100)

I wasn't always conservative.

Lex Fridman (2:18:02.980)

We can get to that later if you want.

Lex Fridman (2:18:05.220)

And I did feel an immense pressure after the election

Lex Fridman (2:18:13.240)

by people to say, wanted me to say the election was stolen.

Lex Fridman (2:18:17.580)

And I knew that I had a sizable part of my audience.

Lex Fridman (2:18:21.620)

Oh, well, here's the benefit.

Saagar Enjeti (2:18:22.780)

Most people know me from Rising,

Lex Fridman (2:18:24.220)

which is with Crystal and me.

Saagar Enjeti (2:18:26.180)

That is inherently a left right program.

Lex Fridman (2:18:29.400)

So it's a large audience.

Lex Fridman (2:18:31.220)

So I felt comfortable and I knew that I could still be fine

Lex Fridman (2:18:35.500)

in terms of my numbers, whatever,

Saagar Enjeti (2:18:37.280)

because a lot, many people knew me who were on the left.

Lex Fridman (2:18:40.260)

And if really, you know,

Saagar Enjeti (2:18:41.500)

my right listeners abandoned me, so be it.

Lex Fridman (2:18:44.620)

I was, had the luxury of able to take that choice,

Lex Fridman (2:18:47.060)

but I still felt an immense amount of pressure

Lex Fridman (2:18:50.980)

to say the election was stolen,

Saagar Enjeti (2:18:52.740)

to give credence to a lot of the stuff that Trump was doing,

Lex Fridman (2:18:55.480)

to downplay January 6th,

Saagar Enjeti (2:18:57.700)

to downplay many of the Republican senators

Lex Fridman (2:19:00.060)

or justify many of the Republican senators,

Saagar Enjeti (2:19:01.860)

some of whom I know who objected

Lex Fridman (2:19:04.100)

to the electoral college certification

Lex Fridman (2:19:06.300)

and who stoked some of the flames

Lex Fridman (2:19:08.900)

that have eaten the Republican base.

Lex Fridman (2:19:11.660)

And I just wouldn't do it.

Lex Fridman (2:19:13.540)

And that was hard, man.

Saagar Enjeti (2:19:15.340)

Like I feel more politically homeless right now

Lex Fridman (2:19:19.820)

than I ever have,

Lex Fridman (2:19:21.620)

but I have realized in the last couple of months

Lex Fridman (2:19:24.620)

that's the best thing that ever happened to me.

Saagar Enjeti (2:19:26.280)

It's freedom.

Lex Fridman (2:19:27.120)

It's true freedom.

Saagar Enjeti (2:19:28.580)

I now, I say exactly what I think.

Lex Fridman (2:19:32.660)

And it's not that I wasn't doing that before.

Saagar Enjeti (2:19:34.920)

It's maybe I would avoid certain topics

Lex Fridman (2:19:38.120)

or like I would think about things

Saagar Enjeti (2:19:40.660)