Michael Malice: Anarchy, Democracy, Libertarianism, Love, and Trolling

Lex Fridman (01:28.960)

Third, my side comments related to the episode.

Lex Fridman (01:32.280)

And finally, fourth, full ad reads

Lex Fridman (01:35.000)

on the audio side of things,

Lex Fridman (01:36.760)

and on YouTube, going straight to the conversation.

Lex Fridman (01:39.560)

So not doing the full ad reads.

Lex Fridman (01:41.520)

And as always, no ads in the middle,

Lex Fridman (01:43.560)

because to me, they get in the way of the conversation.

Michael Malice (01:46.600)

So, quick mention of the sponsors.

Lex Fridman (01:48.520)

First, SEMrush, the most advanced

Michael Malice (01:51.400)

SEO optimization tool I've ever come across.

Lex Fridman (01:54.320)

I don't like looking at numbers,

Lex Fridman (01:56.080)

but someone probably should.

Lex Fridman (01:57.520)

It helps you make good decisions.

Michael Malice (02:00.000)

Second sponsor is DoorDash, food delivery service

Lex Fridman (02:03.000)

that I've used for many years

Michael Malice (02:04.640)

to fuel long, uninterrupted sessions of deep work

Lex Fridman (02:07.640)

at Google, MIT, and I still use it a lot today.

Michael Malice (02:11.840)

Third sponsor is Masterclass, online courses

Lex Fridman (02:14.880)

from the best people in the world

Michael Malice (02:16.720)

on each of the topics covered,

Lex Fridman (02:18.560)

from rockets, to game design, to poker,

Michael Malice (02:21.040)

to writing, and to guitar with Carlos Santana.

Lex Fridman (02:25.360)

Please check out these sponsors in the description

Michael Malice (02:27.280)

to get a discount and to support this podcast.

Lex Fridman (02:30.800)

As a side note, let me say that I hope to have

Michael Malice (02:33.040)

some conversations with political thinkers,

Lex Fridman (02:35.680)

including liberals and conservatives,

Michael Malice (02:38.160)

anarchists, libertarians, objectivists,

Lex Fridman (02:41.080)

and everything in between.

Michael Malice (02:42.920)

I'm as allergic to Trump bashing and Trump worship

Lex Fridman (02:46.480)

as you probably are.

Michael Malice (02:48.160)

I have none of that in me.

Lex Fridman (02:49.800)

I really work hard to be open minded

Lex Fridman (02:52.040)

and let my curiosity drive the conversation.

Lex Fridman (02:54.600)

I do plead with you to be patient on two counts.

Michael Malice (02:57.760)

First, I have an intense, busy life

Lex Fridman (03:00.560)

outside of these podcasts.

Michael Malice (03:02.360)

Like it's 4 a.m. right now as I'm recording this.

Lex Fridman (03:05.520)

So sometimes life affects these conversations,

Michael Malice (03:08.360)

like in this case, I pull an all nighter beforehand.

Lex Fridman (03:11.240)

So please be patient with me if I say something

Michael Malice (03:13.240)

inelegant, confusing, dumb, or just plain wrong.

Lex Fridman (03:17.640)

I'll try to correct myself on social media

Michael Malice (03:19.680)

or in future conversations as much as I can.

Lex Fridman (03:22.400)

I really am always learning and working hard to improve.

Michael Malice (03:26.040)

Second, if I or the guest says something about,

Lex Fridman (03:29.920)

for example, our current president, Donald Trump,

Michael Malice (03:33.080)

that's over the top negative or over the top positive,

Lex Fridman (03:36.920)

please don't let your brain go into the partisan mode.

Michael Malice (03:39.760)

Try to hear our words in an open minded nuanced way.

Lex Fridman (03:43.240)

And if we say stuff from a place of emotion,

Michael Malice (03:45.840)

please give us a pass.

Lex Fridman (03:47.440)

Nuanced conversation can only happen

Michael Malice (03:49.720)

if we're patient with each other.

Lex Fridman (03:52.360)

If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube,

Michael Malice (03:54.200)

review the Five Stars and Apple podcast,

Lex Fridman (03:56.560)

follow on Spotify, support on Patreon,

Michael Malice (03:58.920)

or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman.

Lex Fridman (04:02.460)

And now, here's my conversation with Michael Malice.

Michael Malice (04:07.240)

There was a Simpsons episode where he starts mixing

Lex Fridman (04:09.360)

like sleeping pills with like pet pills

Lex Fridman (04:12.400)

and he's driving his truck and I'm like,

Lex Fridman (04:13.920)

I wanna see what happens if he mixed Red Bull

Lex Fridman (04:15.480)

and Nitra cold brew.

Lex Fridman (04:17.600)

There's a lineup of drugs.

Michael Malice (04:21.800)

This is gonna be so fun.

Lex Fridman (04:23.640)

Yeah, let's start with love.

Michael Malice (04:28.840)

Yeah, so one thing we'll eventually somehow talk about,

Lex Fridman (04:31.680)

it'll be a theme throughout, is that you're also Russian.

Michael Malice (04:34.240)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (04:35.080)

A little bit less than me, but.

Lex Fridman (04:36.920)

How, why?

Lex Fridman (04:37.840)

Cause I'm from Ukraine.

Lex Fridman (04:39.600)

Oh, you're from Ukraine?

Lex Fridman (04:40.560)

From above.

Michael Malice (04:41.400)

Okay, wow.

Lex Fridman (04:42.320)

No, because you came here a little bit

Michael Malice (04:43.960)

when you were younger.

Lex Fridman (04:44.840)

Yeah.

Michael Malice (04:45.680)

I came here when I was 13,

Lex Fridman (04:47.720)

so I saturated a little bit of the Russian soul.

Michael Malice (04:49.960)

I marinated in the Russian soul a little deeper.

Lex Fridman (04:52.520)

I haven't told anyone this,

Lex Fridman (04:53.600)

but I'll be glad to tell you, Davidish.

Lex Fridman (04:56.720)

I haven't been back since I was two.

Lex Fridman (04:59.160)

And next summer, it looks like me and my buddy,

Lex Fridman (05:01.400)

Chris Williamson, who's also a podcaster,

Michael Malice (05:03.240)

he's British, Modern Wisdom, he looks like Apollo.

Lex Fridman (05:06.280)

Looks like we got a videographer.

Lex Fridman (05:07.480)

Which Apollo?

Lex Fridman (05:08.320)

Apollo Creed?

Michael Malice (05:09.160)

The god, he looks like the god Apollo.

Lex Fridman (05:10.200)

Yeah, he's like a model.

Michael Malice (05:11.040)

I thought you were talking about Rocky.

Lex Fridman (05:13.760)

So, we're gonna go for the first time

Michael Malice (05:16.640)

to see where I came from.

Lex Fridman (05:18.500)

Which is in Ukraine.

Michael Malice (05:19.920)

We're gonna go to Lvov and either St. Petersburg or Moscow,

Lex Fridman (05:22.360)

probably St. Petersburg, or both.

Michael Malice (05:24.860)

It's gonna be intense.

Lex Fridman (05:25.760)

It's gonna be a lot of panic attacks, I feel.

Lex Fridman (05:28.480)

And your Russian is okay?

Lex Fridman (05:30.600)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (05:31.440)

How do you think?

Lex Fridman (05:33.160)

Good?

Lex Fridman (05:34.000)

Do you understand?

Lex Fridman (05:34.820)

No, you can't talk Russian in Ukraine,

Michael Malice (05:35.920)

or it's like they get offended.

Lex Fridman (05:37.440)

Yeah, but then you also wanna go to Russia.

Michael Malice (05:39.920)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (05:41.360)

I don't know.

Michael Malice (05:42.940)

For me, there's several people in Russia

Lex Fridman (05:44.800)

I wanna interview on a podcast.

Michael Malice (05:47.000)

So, one of them is Gagarin Perlman,

Lex Fridman (05:49.640)

which is a mathematician, and the other person is Putin.

Lex Fridman (05:53.720)

You know what my favorite Putin story is?

Lex Fridman (05:55.680)

Do you know this?

Michael Malice (05:56.500)

No.

Lex Fridman (05:57.340)

When he had Merkel with him, do you know this story?

Michael Malice (05:58.520)

No.

Lex Fridman (05:59.360)

Merkel's scared of dogs, like petrified of dogs.

Michael Malice (06:02.160)

So, he brings in his like black lab.

Lex Fridman (06:06.160)

It's a Labrador, it's like the sweetest animal,

Lex Fridman (06:08.240)

and it's all over her, and there's pictures,

Lex Fridman (06:09.760)

and she's sitting like this, and she's terrified,

Lex Fridman (06:12.040)

and he's like, what's wrong, Angela?

Lex Fridman (06:13.720)

He's just completely trolling her.

Michael Malice (06:16.560)

Yeah, he's aware of the sort of the narrative around him.

Lex Fridman (06:20.800)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (06:21.640)

And then he plays with it.

Lex Fridman (06:22.480)

Yes.

Michael Malice (06:23.300)

He enjoys it.

Lex Fridman (06:24.140)

It's a very Russian thing.

Michael Malice (06:24.980)

My friend wanted to do a film about me.

Lex Fridman (06:26.280)

He goes, I realized you guys aren't like us at all.

Michael Malice (06:28.600)

You're just like, look at us,

Lex Fridman (06:30.080)

and then I started telling him stories

Michael Malice (06:31.440)

about the upbringing, and he's like, oh my God,

Lex Fridman (06:33.520)

and as I'm telling them, I'm like,

Michael Malice (06:34.560)

wow, this stuff is really crazy, like how we are wired.

Lex Fridman (06:38.440)

Who's the we?

Lex Fridman (06:39.260)

Your friend is?

Lex Fridman (06:40.100)

The Russian, the friend's American.

Michael Malice (06:40.920)

I'm saying the way Russians are brought up,

Lex Fridman (06:42.920)

and the way, maybe, I don't think it was just my family.

Michael Malice (06:45.160)

I bet you had similar things.

Lex Fridman (06:46.600)

Here's an example.

Michael Malice (06:47.680)

I was, I had a buddy staying with me.

Lex Fridman (06:50.400)

He had a problem with his roommate,

Lex Fridman (06:51.360)

so he crashed at my place, fine.

Lex Fridman (06:53.120)

I went to the gym, and I come back,

Lex Fridman (06:56.540)

and he goes, oh, there was,

Lex Fridman (06:58.320)

and my apartment building is four four apartments,

Lex Fridman (07:00.440)

so it's not like a huge thing.

Lex Fridman (07:02.000)

He goes, oh, there was someone knocking at your door,

Lex Fridman (07:04.440)

so I told him blah blah, and for me,

Lex Fridman (07:08.900)

and I wonder if you're the same way,

Michael Malice (07:10.960)

if I'm at someone's house that's not my own,

Lex Fridman (07:12.920)

and someone knocks on the door,

Michael Malice (07:14.660)

I wouldn't even think to answer it.

Lex Fridman (07:16.600)

Like if I had an apple here, maybe I'd eat it,

Michael Malice (07:18.920)

I'd cut it, whatever.

Lex Fridman (07:20.360)

I'm not gonna, it just doesn't enter my head

Michael Malice (07:21.860)

to smash into my face.

Lex Fridman (07:23.160)

The thought of answering the door, if it's not my house,

Michael Malice (07:26.420)

it would never enter my head.

Lex Fridman (07:27.440)

Would it enter your head?

Lex Fridman (07:28.640)

No, but why?

Lex Fridman (07:30.080)

But he's an American, so someone's at the door.

Michael Malice (07:31.760)

He goes and opens it, even though it's not his house.

Lex Fridman (07:33.680)

I would never do that.

Michael Malice (07:34.740)

I would never think to do that.

Lex Fridman (07:36.860)

That is so strange that you pick some very obscure thing

Michael Malice (07:39.880)

to delineate Americans and Russians.

Lex Fridman (07:42.040)

I don't think that's obscure,

Michael Malice (07:43.040)

because I think it speaks to how we perceive strangers.

Lex Fridman (07:46.560)

With Americans, everyone's friendly,

Lex Fridman (07:48.280)

and with us, it's like, no, no, you have that moat,

Lex Fridman (07:52.000)

and I think that percolates into many different aspects

Michael Malice (07:55.200)

of how we relate to people, and I have to undo a lot of that.

Lex Fridman (07:58.020)

That's true.

Michael Malice (07:58.860)

You're right, there's the relationship I formed there

Lex Fridman (08:00.880)

where in Russia, we're very deep and close,

Lex Fridman (08:04.120)

and then there's the strangers, the other,

Lex Fridman (08:06.320)

that you don't trust by default.

Michael Malice (08:08.920)

It takes a long time to go over the moat of trust.

Lex Fridman (08:11.280)

For a long time, until recently,

Michael Malice (08:13.880)

whenever I said anything to anyone,

Lex Fridman (08:15.440)

my brain ran a scan that said, if this person turns on you,

Lex Fridman (08:20.760)

would this, can they use this against you?

Lex Fridman (08:22.640)

And I would do this with everything I said with strangers,

Lex Fridman (08:24.800)

and after a while, it's like, you know what?

Lex Fridman (08:26.320)

Maybe they will, but I'm strong enough to take it,

Lex Fridman (08:28.200)

but this is not how Americans think.

Lex Fridman (08:30.560)

Or here's another one.

Michael Malice (08:31.400)

Let me ask you this.

Lex Fridman (08:32.220)

Sorry, I'm taking over the interview.

Lex Fridman (08:33.060)

People ask about advice for work, right?

Lex Fridman (08:35.680)

Like I had this, there was this party I went to,

Lex Fridman (08:37.920)

and basically everyone had their own problems,

Lex Fridman (08:39.560)

and everyone else gave their advice, right?

Lex Fridman (08:41.280)

And someone's having a problem with a coworker,

Lex Fridman (08:43.380)

and the advice these Tupoy Americans gave them is,

Michael Malice (08:46.820)

oh, sit down and have a talk with them.

Lex Fridman (08:48.800)

And to me, this is like the last case, last resort.

Michael Malice (08:52.920)

Like first, you have to see what you can

Lex Fridman (08:54.520)

without showing your hand, showing your vulnerability,

Michael Malice (08:56.960)

only when everything hasn't worked out,

Lex Fridman (08:58.700)

or you're like, all right, let me sit down with you

Lex Fridman (09:00.200)

and try to have it out with you, probably.

Lex Fridman (09:02.120)

But for them, the first thing is like, sit down and be like,

Michael Malice (09:04.680)

oh, you're causing me problems, blah, blah, blah.

Lex Fridman (09:06.940)

So I perceive that right away as a threat,

Michael Malice (09:09.340)

that this person sees an antagonism between us,

Lex Fridman (09:11.440)

and also as a weakness that I'm getting to them.

Lex Fridman (09:13.680)

So my reaction isn't how do I make it better?

Lex Fridman (09:17.240)

My reaction is to reinforce my position

Lex Fridman (09:20.200)

and see what I can to marginalize them, usually.

Lex Fridman (09:23.640)

I haven't worked in a corporate setting in a long time.

Lex Fridman (09:25.680)

But it's not, I don't approach it the way an American would.

Lex Fridman (09:27.780)

Like, I'm glad you came and talked to me.

Michael Malice (09:29.040)

Now I probably would, because it's gonna be a friend.

Lex Fridman (09:31.520)

So you attribute that to the Russian upbringing,

Michael Malice (09:34.580)

as opposed to you have deep psychological issues.

Lex Fridman (09:37.980)

I think those are synonymous, don't you?

Lex Fridman (09:39.820)

Wait, would you think differently, maybe a few years ago?

Lex Fridman (09:46.580)

I don't know, I think you lost me at the,

Michael Malice (09:50.400)

because you kind of said that,

Lex Fridman (09:52.260)

you're kind of implying you have a deep distrust

Michael Malice (09:54.020)

of the world, like the world is.

Lex Fridman (09:57.260)

I think the default setting would be distrust, yeah.

Lex Fridman (09:59.860)

But I would put it differently,

Lex Fridman (10:05.540)

is I almost ignore the rest of the world,

Michael Malice (10:09.380)

I don't even acknowledge it, I just savor,

Lex Fridman (10:14.020)

I save my love and trust for the small circle of people.

Michael Malice (10:18.660)

I agree, but when that person is being confrontational,

Lex Fridman (10:21.220)

or as they perceive it, as being open,

Lex Fridman (10:24.020)

now there's a situation, how would you handle that?

Lex Fridman (10:27.300)

Like a cold wind blows, you just kind of like.

Michael Malice (10:31.260)

Yeah, but it's not like this is an opportunity

Lex Fridman (10:33.340)

for us to work out our differences, it's a cold wind.

Michael Malice (10:36.340)

It's not a hug, that's my point.

Lex Fridman (10:38.500)

Americans think it's a hug, a cold wind.

Michael Malice (10:41.700)

You're so suspicious, what it really is, is a cold wind.

Lex Fridman (10:46.860)

I'm so humane, it's not something to be scared of,

Michael Malice (10:50.380)

it's a cold wind, it's a good person.

Lex Fridman (10:52.580)

But it's not, this is great, but it's not a source of,

Michael Malice (10:56.060)

like I'm not suspicious of, like I'm not anxious,

Lex Fridman (11:00.620)

I would say, or like living in fear

Michael Malice (11:02.940)

of the rest of the world, I'm more.

Lex Fridman (11:04.540)

Oh, I agree, but you're not receptive to that person.

Michael Malice (11:07.420)

That's all I'm saying, and they are.

Lex Fridman (11:09.460)

Got it, so speaking of which, let's talk about love.

Michael Malice (11:14.380)

Which requires to be receptive of the world, of strangers.

Lex Fridman (11:19.780)

How do we put more love out there in the world,

Lex Fridman (11:23.060)

especially on the internet?

Lex Fridman (11:25.340)

One mechanism I have found to increase love,

Lex Fridman (11:30.380)

and that's a word that has many meanings

Lex Fridman (11:31.900)

and is used in a very intense sense

Lex Fridman (11:33.940)

and is used in a very loose sense.

Lex Fridman (11:35.380)

Can you try to define love?

Michael Malice (11:36.860)

Sure, love is a strong sense of attraction

Lex Fridman (11:42.100)

toward another person, entity, or place

Michael Malice (11:46.940)

that causes one to tend to react

Lex Fridman (11:51.340)

in a disproportionately positive manner.

Michael Malice (11:53.540)

That's off the top of my head.

Lex Fridman (11:54.380)

Disproportionately.

Michael Malice (11:55.460)

Yes, so for example, if you.

Lex Fridman (11:57.660)

Why not proportionately?

Michael Malice (11:58.740)

Because if someone's about to, who you love,

Lex Fridman (12:02.700)

is about to get harmed, you're moving heaven and earth

Michael Malice (12:05.660)

to make sure, or like a book you love.

Lex Fridman (12:08.820)

I love this book, like you're going through the fire

Michael Malice (12:10.460)

to try to save it, whereas if it's a book you really like,

Lex Fridman (12:13.140)

it's like, oh, I'll get another one.

Lex Fridman (12:16.500)

And a book's kind of a loose example, but.

Lex Fridman (12:18.580)

So you're going with the love that's like,

Michael Malice (12:20.140)

you're saving for just a few people,

Lex Fridman (12:22.220)

almost like romantical, like love for a close family.

Lex Fridman (12:25.060)

But what about just love to even the broader,

Lex Fridman (12:28.780)

like the kind of love you can put out

Michael Malice (12:30.900)

to people on the internet, which is like just kindness.

Lex Fridman (12:33.860)

Sure, I would say in that case,

Michael Malice (12:35.300)

it's important to make them feel seen and validated.

Lex Fridman (12:41.460)

And I try to do this when people who I have come to know

Michael Malice (12:44.860)

on the internet, and there's a lot,

Lex Fridman (12:46.600)

I try to do that as much as possible

Michael Malice (12:48.780)

because I don't think it's valid

Lex Fridman (12:51.420)

how on social media, and I do this a lot myself,

Lex Fridman (12:53.780)

but not towards everyone,

Lex Fridman (12:55.140)

it's just there to be aggressive and antagonistic.

Michael Malice (12:58.300)

You should be antagonistic towards bad people,

Lex Fridman (13:00.580)

and that's fine, but at the same time,

Michael Malice (13:02.780)

there's lots of great people.

Lex Fridman (13:04.400)

And especially with my audience,

Lex Fridman (13:06.100)

and I would bet disproportionately with yours,

Lex Fridman (13:08.500)

there's lots of people who are,

Michael Malice (13:10.300)

because of their psychology and intelligence,

Lex Fridman (13:13.300)

are going to be much more isolated socially than they should.

Lex Fridman (13:17.220)

And if I, and I've heard from many of them,

Lex Fridman (13:19.340)

and if I'm the person who makes them feel,

Michael Malice (13:21.180)

oh, I'm not crazy, it's everyone else around me

Lex Fridman (13:24.180)

who is just basic, the fact that I can be that person,

Michael Malice (13:27.700)

which I didn't have at their age,

Lex Fridman (13:29.520)

to me is incredibly reaffirming.

Lex Fridman (13:32.460)

You mean that source of love?

Lex Fridman (13:34.100)

But I mean love in the sense of like,

Michael Malice (13:36.140)

you know, you care about this person

Lex Fridman (13:37.700)

and you want good things for them,

Michael Malice (13:38.760)

not in a kind of romantic way.

Lex Fridman (13:40.140)

But I mean, you're using it in a broad sense now.

Michael Malice (13:42.460)

Yeah, but you're also a person who kind of,

Lex Fridman (13:44.900)

I mean, attacks the power structures in the world

Michael Malice (13:52.060)

by mocking them effectively.

Lex Fridman (13:54.740)

And love, I would say, requires you to be

Michael Malice (14:00.780)

non witty and simple and fragile,

Lex Fridman (14:04.660)

which I see it as like the opposite of what trolls do.

Michael Malice (14:08.220)

Trolls are, if there is someone coming after what I love,

Lex Fridman (14:15.220)

there's two mechanisms, right, at least two.

Michael Malice (14:18.740)

I go up and I'm fighting them,

Lex Fridman (14:20.780)

and in which case you are getting hurt in a knife fight,

Michael Malice (14:24.660)

even if you win the knife fight,

Lex Fridman (14:26.420)

or if you disarm them and you preclude

Michael Malice (14:30.100)

the possibility of a fight and you drive them off

Lex Fridman (14:32.420)

or render them powerless,

Michael Malice (14:34.100)

you keep your person intact as yourself

Lex Fridman (14:37.860)

and you also protect your values.

Lex Fridman (14:39.660)

So how do you render them powerless?

Lex Fridman (14:41.660)

As you just said, by mocking them.

Michael Malice (14:43.220)

One of the most effective mechanisms for those in power,

Lex Fridman (14:46.300)

we're much closer to Brave New World than 1984.

Michael Malice (14:48.980)

The people who are dominant and in power

Lex Fridman (14:51.060)

aren't there because of the threat of the gulag or prison.

Michael Malice (14:54.700)

They're there because of social pressures.

Lex Fridman (14:56.420)

Look at the masks.

Michael Malice (14:57.960)

I was on the subway not that long ago in New York City.

Lex Fridman (15:01.560)

No one cared who I was until I put off the mask.

Michael Malice (15:04.060)

I was in the subway that long in New York City.

Lex Fridman (15:06.100)

And I put this on my Instagram.

Michael Malice (15:07.140)

I've told this story before.

Lex Fridman (15:08.300)

There was an Asian dude in his early 30s.

Michael Malice (15:10.100)

He was like in Western clothes.

Lex Fridman (15:11.380)

It's not like he had a rickshaw or something.

Michael Malice (15:13.420)

An older man in his 50s stood up over him on the subway,

Lex Fridman (15:16.860)

screamed at him, said, go back where you came from.

Michael Malice (15:20.440)

You're disgusting.

Lex Fridman (15:21.280)

I'm gonna get sick.

Michael Malice (15:22.220)

If you think this guy is a vector of disease,

Lex Fridman (15:23.920)

which is your prerogative, why are you coming close to him?

Lex Fridman (15:25.820)

Why are you getting in his face?

Lex Fridman (15:27.380)

And what?

Lex Fridman (15:28.380)

Sorry, so it was because he was Asian?

Lex Fridman (15:32.100)

It was both.

Michael Malice (15:32.940)

It was the not having a mask gave him the permission

Lex Fridman (15:37.580)

to act like a despicable, aggressive person toward him.

Lex Fridman (15:41.180)

And the point being, a lot of these mechanisms

Lex Fridman (15:44.980)

for social control are outsourced to low quality people

Michael Malice (15:49.260)

because this is their one chance

Lex Fridman (15:50.620)

to assert dominance and status over somebody else.

Lex Fridman (15:53.240)

So the best way to diffuse that

Lex Fridman (15:54.940)

isn't with weaponry or fighting.

Michael Malice (15:56.820)

It's through mockery because all of a sudden,

Lex Fridman (15:58.980)

their claims to authority are effectively destroyed.

Lex Fridman (16:01.760)

So let me push back on that.

Lex Fridman (16:02.980)

What about fighting that with love,

Lex Fridman (16:06.940)

with patience and kindness towards them?

Lex Fridman (16:10.940)

I don't think kindness is,

Michael Malice (16:12.860)

I think that would be a mismatch and inappropriate.

Lex Fridman (16:16.060)

There's Superman, there's Batman, okay?

Lex Fridman (16:18.180)

And Superman's job is to help the good people

Lex Fridman (16:20.020)

and Batman's job is to hurt the bad people.

Lex Fridman (16:22.120)

And I will always be on the Batman side

Lex Fridman (16:25.200)

than the Superman side.

Michael Malice (16:27.340)

Both work silly tight costumes.

Lex Fridman (16:29.880)

One has pointy ears.

Michael Malice (16:31.660)

Both are ridiculous, so let's.

Lex Fridman (16:33.460)

One's a billionaire who gets, he's swimming in trim.

Michael Malice (16:36.220)

Which one is a billionaire? Batman.

Lex Fridman (16:37.900)

Okay, I'm undereducated on the superhero movies,

Michael Malice (16:42.900)

I apologize.

Lex Fridman (16:44.420)

Okay, but you're just saying your predisposition

Michael Malice (16:48.260)

is to be on the Batman side,

Lex Fridman (16:50.540)

is to fighting the bad guys.

Michael Malice (16:54.660)

Yeah, and it's what I'm good at.

Lex Fridman (16:57.340)

That's what you're good at.

Lex Fridman (16:58.540)

But just to play devil's advocate,

Lex Fridman (17:02.500)

or actually, in this case, I am the devil

Michael Malice (17:04.580)

because it's what I usually do.

Lex Fridman (17:06.380)

Well, I'm the devil, you're the angel's advocate.

Michael Malice (17:08.460)

Exactly, to be the angel advocate, yeah.

Lex Fridman (17:12.280)

Is like, I feel like mockery

Michael Malice (17:17.820)

is a path towards escalation of conflict.

Lex Fridman (17:20.380)

Yes, in many ways, yes.

Lex Fridman (17:22.100)

So you're not, I mean,

Lex Fridman (17:25.000)

it's kind of like guerrilla warfare.

Michael Malice (17:28.520)

I mean, you're not going to win.

Lex Fridman (17:31.440)

I am winning, we're all winning.

Michael Malice (17:32.760)

We're winning on a daily.

Lex Fridman (17:33.900)

This is my next book, we're winning.

Michael Malice (17:35.680)

We've won before, I'm not joking.

Lex Fridman (17:37.400)

The topic of the next book.

Michael Malice (17:39.040)

Yes, it's the white pill.

Lex Fridman (17:40.600)

The white pill.

Michael Malice (17:41.440)

Is that we're gonna, we are winning.

Lex Fridman (17:43.660)

The most horrible people are being rendered

Michael Malice (17:46.300)

into laughing stocks on a daily basis on social media.

Lex Fridman (17:49.080)

This is a glorious thing.

Michael Malice (17:49.920)

This is good, I so disagree with you.

Lex Fridman (17:52.120)

I disagree with you because there's side effects

Michael Malice (17:54.120)

that are very destructive.

Lex Fridman (17:55.940)

It feels like you're winning,

Lex Fridman (17:57.520)

but we're completely destroying the possibility

Lex Fridman (18:00.360)

of having like a cohesive society.

Michael Malice (18:04.640)

That's called oncology.

Lex Fridman (18:06.720)

What's that mean?

Michael Malice (18:07.840)

Curing cancer.

Lex Fridman (18:09.060)

No, I, yeah.

Michael Malice (18:09.900)

Your concept of a cohesive society is, in fact,

Lex Fridman (18:12.880)

a society based on oppression

Lex Fridman (18:15.720)

and not allowing individuals to live their personal freedom.

Lex Fridman (18:20.120)

Oh, so you're a utopian view of the world.

Michael Malice (18:22.520)

You're the utopian.

Lex Fridman (18:23.420)

You're saying cohesive society.

Michael Malice (18:24.760)

I'm saying I don't need that.

Lex Fridman (18:25.820)

I'm saying there's gonna be conflict.

Michael Malice (18:27.620)

Right, there's gonna be conflict.

Lex Fridman (18:29.120)

You and I are disagreeing right now.

Michael Malice (18:30.320)

That's not cohesive.

Lex Fridman (18:31.360)

Doesn't mean we like each other less.

Michael Malice (18:32.600)

Doesn't mean we respect each other less.

Lex Fridman (18:34.520)

Cohesive doesn't, it's just a euphemism

Michael Malice (18:37.040)

for like everyone submitting to what I want.

Lex Fridman (18:39.960)

No, I mean, cohesive could be that.

Michael Malice (18:43.720)

It could be like enforced with violence,

Lex Fridman (18:48.160)

all that kind of stuff,

Michael Malice (18:49.000)

sort of the libertarian view of the world,

Lex Fridman (18:53.200)

but it could just be being respectful

Lex Fridman (18:57.240)

and kind of each other and kind towards each other

Lex Fridman (19:00.400)

and loving towards each other.

Michael Malice (19:02.660)

I mean, that's what I mean by cohesive.

Lex Fridman (19:04.620)

So when people say free, it's funny.

Michael Malice (19:07.600)

Like freedom is a funny thing

Lex Fridman (19:10.000)

because freedom could be painful to a lot of people.

Michael Malice (19:15.940)

It's all matters how you define it,

Lex Fridman (19:18.000)

how you implement it, how it actually looks like.

Michael Malice (19:20.280)

Sure.

Lex Fridman (19:21.120)

I'm just saying it feels like the mockery

Michael Malice (19:26.880)

of the powerful leads to further and further divisions.

Lex Fridman (19:31.460)

It's like it's turning life into a game

Michael Malice (19:36.360)

to where it's always you're creating

Lex Fridman (19:40.280)

these different little tribes and groups

Lex Fridman (19:43.040)

and you're constantly fighting the groups

Lex Fridman (19:48.340)

that become a little bit more powerful

Michael Malice (19:50.280)

by undercutting them through guerrilla warfare kind of thing.

Lex Fridman (19:53.400)

And that's what the internet becomes

Michael Malice (19:54.920)

is everyone's just mocking each other

Lex Fridman (19:56.760)

and then certain groups become more and more powerful

Lex Fridman (19:59.240)

and then they start fighting each other

Lex Fridman (1:00:00.320)

That's game night for our kin.

Michael Malice (1:00:03.440)

You know, one of my quotes is,

Lex Fridman (1:00:04.720)

and I think about this every day

Lex Fridman (1:00:06.440)

and I mean it with every fiber of my being,

Lex Fridman (1:00:09.180)

we're born knowing that life is a magical adventure

Lex Fridman (1:00:11.520)

and it takes them years to train us to think otherwise.

Lex Fridman (1:00:14.780)

And I think that Willy Wonka approach,

Michael Malice (1:00:16.560)

it's a very Camus approach.

Lex Fridman (1:00:17.800)

It's something I believe with every fiber of my being.

Michael Malice (1:00:20.660)

I try to spread that as much as possible.

Lex Fridman (1:00:22.780)

I think it is very sad.

Michael Malice (1:00:24.600)

I'm not being sarcastic.

Lex Fridman (1:00:25.720)

It comes off as condescending.

Michael Malice (1:00:27.520)

I mean it at face value.

Lex Fridman (1:00:29.000)

It's very sad how many people are not receptive to that.

Lex Fridman (1:00:31.760)

And I think a lot of those functions,

Lex Fridman (1:00:32.880)

how they were raised.

Lex Fridman (1:00:34.060)

And I could have very easily with my upbringing

Lex Fridman (1:00:37.040)

have not maintained that perspective.

Lex Fridman (1:00:40.360)

And there's a lot of,

Lex Fridman (1:00:42.720)

I have a lot of friends in recovery like AA

Lex Fridman (1:00:45.180)

and they have an expression,

Lex Fridman (1:00:47.000)

not my circus, not my monkeys, right?

Michael Malice (1:00:49.200)

That you can't really take on other people's problems

Lex Fridman (1:00:51.920)

on your own at a certain point,

Michael Malice (1:00:53.120)

they have to do the work themselves

Lex Fridman (1:00:54.560)

because you can only do so much externally.

Lex Fridman (1:00:56.840)

And there are a lot of very damaged people out there.

Lex Fridman (1:01:00.560)

And they're damaged people who revel in being damaged.

Lex Fridman (1:01:04.440)

And they are damaged people who desperately,

Lex Fridman (1:01:07.000)

desperately, desperately wanna be well,

Michael Malice (1:01:08.960)

who desperately wanna be happy,

Lex Fridman (1:01:10.280)

who desperately wanna find joy.

Lex Fridman (1:01:12.180)

So if I can be the one and as arrogant as this sounds,

Lex Fridman (1:01:15.840)

I'll own it, who does give them that fun

Lex Fridman (1:01:18.400)

and to tell them it doesn't have to be like you thought.

Lex Fridman (1:01:21.120)

Like it could be, it's gonna hurt, it's gonna suck,

Lex Fridman (1:01:24.140)

but it's still a magical adventure

Lex Fridman (1:01:25.820)

and you're gonna be okay,

Michael Malice (1:01:26.800)

cause you've been through worse.

Lex Fridman (1:01:28.080)

Like that, if that could be my message,

Michael Malice (1:01:30.040)

I would own it all day long.

Lex Fridman (1:01:33.080)

And so what does adventure look like for you?

Michael Malice (1:01:35.560)

Cause I mean, it actually boils down to,

Lex Fridman (1:01:37.240)

I still disagree with you.

Michael Malice (1:01:38.620)

I think trolling can be

Lex Fridman (1:01:41.880)

and very often is destructive for society.

Michael Malice (1:01:45.020)

Yes, I want to destroy society.

Lex Fridman (1:01:46.720)

That is the goal.

Michael Malice (1:01:48.940)

I want to help many people.

Lex Fridman (1:01:50.600)

Unironically, okay.

Michael Malice (1:01:51.800)

Unironically, yes.

Lex Fridman (1:01:54.760)

What do I do with that?

Michael Malice (1:01:55.840)

Okay, so.

Lex Fridman (1:01:56.680)

Whatever you want.

Michael Malice (1:01:57.500)

Do what thou wilt is the hall of the law.

Lex Fridman (1:02:00.200)

Like I just wanna,

Lex Fridman (1:02:01.120)

so you're hosting game night

Lex Fridman (1:02:02.440)

and I just wanna play Monopoly.

Michael Malice (1:02:04.140)

I wanna play, what's it, Risk.

Lex Fridman (1:02:07.560)

Okay, I wanna play these games.

Lex Fridman (1:02:08.920)

And you're saying. Those are aggressive games.

Lex Fridman (1:02:10.560)

Yeah, I was trying to think like of a friendlier game,

Lex Fridman (1:02:12.840)

but they're all kind of aggressive.

Lex Fridman (1:02:15.600)

Battleship.

Michael Malice (1:02:16.440)

Axis and allies, you know, fun stuff.

Lex Fridman (1:02:20.760)

But like, so that's an adventure,

Lex Fridman (1:02:24.220)

but you're saying that we want to destroy everything.

Lex Fridman (1:02:27.760)

Even like the rules of those games are not.

Michael Malice (1:02:31.600)

You voluntarily agree to those rules.

Lex Fridman (1:02:33.480)

The point is if someone comes in

Michael Malice (1:02:35.200)

who no one invited to game night

Lex Fridman (1:02:37.420)

and are telling you, no, when you play Monopoly,

Michael Malice (1:02:40.080)

you have to get money when you land in free parking

Lex Fridman (1:02:42.720)

or you don't, it's like, who are you?

Michael Malice (1:02:45.320)

We're having our own fun and you smell.

Lex Fridman (1:02:49.680)

I don't know, but there's an aggressive.

Michael Malice (1:02:52.960)

There's an aggression.

Lex Fridman (1:02:53.960)

Let me speak to that, which I think you're picking up on.

Michael Malice (1:02:56.460)

I had a friend named Martha, Marcia, excuse me.

Lex Fridman (1:02:58.440)

She ran something called cuddle parties,

Michael Malice (1:02:59.720)

which people laughed at about a lot back in the day.

Lex Fridman (1:03:02.000)

And the premise of the cuddle parties,

Lex Fridman (1:03:03.260)

everyone got together and cuddled, right?

Lex Fridman (1:03:04.760)

And it's like, ah, ha, ha.

Michael Malice (1:03:05.680)

Then you stop to think about it

Lex Fridman (1:03:06.720)

and you realize physical contact is extremely important.

Lex Fridman (1:03:09.620)

And a lot of people don't have it.

Lex Fridman (1:03:11.000)

And if this is a mechanism of people getting that,

Michael Malice (1:03:12.720)

it actually is going to have

Lex Fridman (1:03:13.560)

profound positive psychological consequences.

Lex Fridman (1:03:15.400)

So after she explained it, I'm like, okay,

Lex Fridman (1:03:17.320)

we laughed at this because it's weird.

Lex Fridman (1:03:18.600)

And now that I think about it, this is wonderful.

Lex Fridman (1:03:20.560)

And I asked her about like the tough question,

Lex Fridman (1:03:23.560)

I go, what if guys get turned on?

Lex Fridman (1:03:25.800)

And on their website, it even has a rule,

Lex Fridman (1:03:27.640)

like do not fear the erection, right?

Lex Fridman (1:03:28.840)

Because it's going to be a natural consequence

Michael Malice (1:03:30.200)

of physical proximity.

Lex Fridman (1:03:31.400)

And the point she goes, she said this,

Michael Malice (1:03:33.000)

I think about this all the time.

Lex Fridman (1:03:34.520)

People will take as much space as you let them.

Michael Malice (1:03:38.560)

It is incumbent on each of us to set our own boundaries.

Lex Fridman (1:03:42.840)

We all have to learn when to say,

Michael Malice (1:03:44.400)

no, you're making me uncomfortable.

Lex Fridman (1:03:46.240)

If someone doesn't respect your right

Michael Malice (1:03:48.460)

to have your boundary to be uncomfortable,

Lex Fridman (1:03:50.180)

this person is not your friend.

Michael Malice (1:03:51.800)

Now they can say, I don't understand.

Lex Fridman (1:03:54.300)

Like, why is this okay?

Lex Fridman (1:03:55.460)

Why is that not?

Lex Fridman (1:03:56.360)

Let me know you better so I'm respectful of you.

Lex Fridman (1:03:59.280)

But if they roll their eyes and they're like,

Lex Fridman (1:04:01.020)

get over, I'm going to do what I want,

Michael Malice (1:04:02.320)

this person is not interested in knowing you as a human being.

Lex Fridman (1:04:07.160)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (1:04:08.000)

And that is the aggression.

Lex Fridman (1:04:08.820)

You have to draw those lines.

Michael Malice (1:04:10.180)

I mean, but that's a very positive way

Lex Fridman (1:04:13.440)

of phrasing that aggression.

Michael Malice (1:04:14.880)

I'm a very positive person.

Lex Fridman (1:04:17.000)

But the trolling, there's a destructive thing to it.

Michael Malice (1:04:20.040)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:04:20.880)

That hurts others.

Michael Malice (1:04:22.320)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:04:23.160)

But it's not bad people.

Michael Malice (1:04:25.320)

I only troll as a reaction or towards those in power.

Lex Fridman (1:04:28.460)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (1:04:29.300)

So maybe let's talk about trolling a little bit.

Lex Fridman (1:04:31.080)

Because trolling, when it can, maybe you can correct me,

Lex Fridman (1:04:36.000)

but I've seen it become a game for people

Lex Fridman (1:04:38.000)

that's enjoyable in itself.

Michael Malice (1:04:41.520)

I disagree with that.

Lex Fridman (1:04:44.280)

That's not a good thing.

Michael Malice (1:04:45.520)

If you are there just to hurt innocent people,

Lex Fridman (1:04:48.680)

you are a horrible human being.

Lex Fridman (1:04:50.800)

But doesn't trolling too easily become that?

Lex Fridman (1:04:55.000)

I don't know about easily.

Michael Malice (1:04:55.880)

Let me give you an example of where trolling came from.

Lex Fridman (1:04:58.720)

The original troll was Andy Kaufman.

Michael Malice (1:05:01.160)

He was on the show Taxi.

Lex Fridman (1:05:02.720)

He was a performance artist, not a stand up comedian.

Lex Fridman (1:05:05.440)

And this is a quintessential example of trolling.

Lex Fridman (1:05:08.080)

He had a character where he was basically

Michael Malice (1:05:10.680)

like a lounge singer.

Lex Fridman (1:05:11.520)

He had these glasses on and just a terrible singer

Lex Fridman (1:05:14.920)

and so on and so forth.

Lex Fridman (1:05:15.740)

And he denied it was him.

Lex Fridman (1:05:18.000)

And he came out and I'm blanking on the guy's name.

Lex Fridman (1:05:21.320)

I can't believe it.

Michael Malice (1:05:22.160)

Tony Clifton.

Lex Fridman (1:05:22.980)

Wow.

Michael Malice (1:05:23.820)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:05:24.660)

He came out in the audience and he goes,

Michael Malice (1:05:25.680)

you know, my wife died a few years ago.

Lex Fridman (1:05:28.160)

Every time I look at my daughter Sarah's eyes,

Michael Malice (1:05:29.880)

I can see my wife.

Lex Fridman (1:05:30.760)

Sarah, come out here.

Michael Malice (1:05:31.600)

Let's do a duet.

Lex Fridman (1:05:32.560)

And Sarah was like 11, sits on his lap.

Michael Malice (1:05:35.000)

They start singing duet.

Lex Fridman (1:05:36.400)

Her voice cracks.

Michael Malice (1:05:37.560)

He smacks her across the face.

Lex Fridman (1:05:38.960)

What the hell are you doing?

Michael Malice (1:05:39.840)

You're making an ass out of me in front of these people.

Lex Fridman (1:05:42.160)

She starts crying.

Michael Malice (1:05:43.520)

The audience is booing and he goes,

Lex Fridman (1:05:45.520)

don't boo her, you're just gonna make her cry more.

Michael Malice (1:05:47.620)

Now it ends.

Lex Fridman (1:05:50.160)

This wasn't his daughter.

Michael Malice (1:05:51.280)

It wasn't even a child.

Lex Fridman (1:05:52.120)

It was an actress.

Michael Malice (1:05:52.940)

This was all set up.

Lex Fridman (1:05:53.780)

He's exploiting their love of children

Michael Malice (1:05:57.280)

in order to force them to be performers.

Lex Fridman (1:05:59.320)

That is trolling.

Michael Malice (1:06:01.000)

No one is actually getting hurt.

Lex Fridman (1:06:02.760)

It's a humorous, though twisted exchange.

Michael Malice (1:06:05.680)

If you go online looking for weak people

Lex Fridman (1:06:10.240)

and you are there to denigrate them

Michael Malice (1:06:13.000)

just for them being weak or in some way inferior to you,

Lex Fridman (1:06:16.440)

that is the wrong approach.

Michael Malice (1:06:18.760)

I am best on the counter punch.

Lex Fridman (1:06:21.320)

A lot of times people come to me

Lex Fridman (1:06:23.440)

and they'll be like, I hope you die.

Lex Fridman (1:06:24.880)

You're ugly.

Michael Malice (1:06:25.720)

You're disgusting.

Lex Fridman (1:06:26.540)

And there's this great quote from Billy Idol,

Michael Malice (1:06:28.080)

which I'm gonna mango here, something effective.

Lex Fridman (1:06:30.120)

I love it when people are rude to me,

Michael Malice (1:06:31.640)

then I can stop pretending to be nice.

Lex Fridman (1:06:33.580)

Then you start fights.

Michael Malice (1:06:35.400)

Now it's a chance for me to finish it

Lex Fridman (1:06:37.200)

and make an example of this person.

Lex Fridman (1:06:38.920)

But that's very, very different from

Lex Fridman (1:06:40.880)

I'm gonna go around and humiliate people

Michael Malice (1:06:42.960)

for the sake of doing it, in my view.

Lex Fridman (1:06:46.320)

And I can see how one would lead to the other.

Michael Malice (1:06:48.440)

Yeah, but that's my fundamental concern with it.

Lex Fridman (1:06:50.920)

So my dream is to put, use technology,

Michael Malice (1:06:55.580)

create platforms that increase

Lex Fridman (1:06:58.940)

the amount of love in the world.

Lex Fridman (1:07:00.500)

And to me, trolling is doing the opposite.

Lex Fridman (1:07:05.980)

So like Andy Kaufman is brilliant.

Lex Fridman (1:07:09.760)

So I love, obviously, it sounds like I'm a robot thing.

Lex Fridman (1:07:12.960)

I love humor, okay?

Michael Malice (1:07:15.480)

Humor is good.

Lex Fridman (1:07:18.320)

One, one, one, zero, one, one, one, one.

Lex Fridman (1:07:21.000)

But like, it's, I just see like 4chan.

Lex Fridman (1:07:25.600)

I see that you can often see that humor quickly turn.

Michael Malice (1:07:29.440)

Yeah, because what happens is a lot of low status people,

Lex Fridman (1:07:31.920)

this is their one mechanism through sadism

Michael Malice (1:07:34.920)

to feel empowered, and then they can hide behind,

Lex Fridman (1:07:38.400)

well, I'm just joking.

Michael Malice (1:07:40.200)

Yeah, like there's this dark thing.

Lex Fridman (1:07:41.360)

Yeah, that's not acceptable.

Michael Malice (1:07:42.520)

That's something you can't have.

Lex Fridman (1:07:43.360)

There's a dark LOL that people do,

Michael Malice (1:07:45.760)

which is like they'll say like the shittiest thing.

Lex Fridman (1:07:49.000)

Right, because they feel. And then do LOL after.

Michael Malice (1:07:51.040)

Like, as if, I don't even know like what is happening

Lex Fridman (1:07:55.240)

in that dark mind of yours.

Michael Malice (1:07:56.920)

Because they are feeling powerless in their lives,

Lex Fridman (1:08:00.520)

and they see someone who they perceive as higher status

Michael Malice (1:08:02.880)

or more powerful than them, or even not appear,

Lex Fridman (1:08:05.080)

and they, through their words,

Michael Malice (1:08:07.040)

cause a reaction in this person.

Lex Fridman (1:08:09.500)

So they feel like they are, in a very literal sense,

Michael Malice (1:08:11.680)

making a difference on earth,

Lex Fridman (1:08:12.920)

and they matter in a very dark way.

Michael Malice (1:08:15.200)

It's disturbing.

Lex Fridman (1:08:16.400)

This is not, I mean, it's unfortunate

Michael Malice (1:08:18.240)

that that term trolling is used for that,

Lex Fridman (1:08:21.200)

as opposed to what Andy Kaufman does,

Michael Malice (1:08:22.960)

as opposed to what I do.

Lex Fridman (1:08:24.400)

It really is a sinister thing,

Lex Fridman (1:08:29.040)

and it's something I'm not at all a fan of.

Lex Fridman (1:08:31.680)

How do we fight that?

Michael Malice (1:08:33.880)

So, like a neighboring concept of that

Lex Fridman (1:08:37.260)

is conspiracy theories, which is.

Michael Malice (1:08:39.760)

I don't think they're neighboring at all.

Lex Fridman (1:08:41.560)

Well, let me give a sort of naive perspective.

Michael Malice (1:08:45.300)

Maybe you can educate me on this.

Lex Fridman (1:08:46.640)

From my perspective, conspiracy theories

Michael Malice (1:08:49.800)

are these constructs of ideas

Lex Fridman (1:08:52.920)

that go deeper and deeper and deeper

Michael Malice (1:08:55.440)

into creating worlds

Lex Fridman (1:09:01.240)

where there's powerful pedophiles controlling things,

Michael Malice (1:09:06.860)

like these very sophisticated models of the world

Lex Fridman (1:09:11.840)

that in part might be true,

Lex Fridman (1:09:14.160)

but in large part, I would say,

Lex Fridman (1:09:15.960)

are figments of imagination

Michael Malice (1:09:18.560)

that become really useful constructs.

Lex Fridman (1:09:22.080)

Self reinforcing.

Michael Malice (1:09:23.120)

Self reinforcing for then feeding,

Lex Fridman (1:09:26.600)

like empowering the trolls

Michael Malice (1:09:29.840)

to attack the powerful, the conventionally powerful.

Lex Fridman (1:09:34.880)

I don't think that's a function of conspiracy theories.

Michael Malice (1:09:37.120)

Now, let's talk about conspiracy theories,

Lex Fridman (1:09:38.680)

because one of my quotes is,

Michael Malice (1:09:39.580)

"'You take one red pill, not the whole bottle.'"

Lex Fridman (1:09:41.920)

This concept that everything in life

Michael Malice (1:09:45.560)

is at the function of a small cadre of individuals

Lex Fridman (1:09:50.480)

would be, for many people, reassuring,

Michael Malice (1:09:53.200)

because as bad as it looks, you know they,

Lex Fridman (1:09:55.880)

whoever they are, it's usually the Jews,

Michael Malice (1:09:57.940)

aren't gonna let it get that bad, that they will pull back.

Lex Fridman (1:10:00.840)

Or the black pill is that they aren't intentionally

Michael Malice (1:10:05.820)

trying to destroy everything,

Lex Fridman (1:10:07.280)

and there's nothing we can do and we're doomed.

Lex Fridman (1:10:08.880)

And there's an amazing book by Arthur Herman

Lex Fridman (1:10:10.500)

called The Idea of Declined Western History.

Michael Malice (1:10:12.840)

It's one of my top 10 books

Lex Fridman (1:10:14.320)

where he goes through every 20 years

Lex Fridman (1:10:16.360)

how there's a different population that say,

Lex Fridman (1:10:18.200)

"'It's the end of the world, here's the proof.'"

Lex Fridman (1:10:20.640)

And very often, the proof is something

Lex Fridman (1:10:22.140)

that is kind of self fulfilling,

Michael Malice (1:10:24.080)

where it's not falsifiable.

Lex Fridman (1:10:26.520)

And we both have to think of ways

Michael Malice (1:10:27.760)

to falsify our claims from earlier.

Lex Fridman (1:10:29.660)

So it is a big danger.

Michael Malice (1:10:32.520)

It's a big danger online, because very quickly,

Lex Fridman (1:10:35.840)

if someone who you thought was good,

Lex Fridman (1:10:38.580)

but now is bad on one aspect,

Lex Fridman (1:10:40.280)

well, they're controlled opposition,

Michael Malice (1:10:41.800)

or they've been taken over,

Lex Fridman (1:10:44.080)

or they've been kind of appropriated by the bad people,

Michael Malice (1:10:47.740)

whoever those bad people would be.

Lex Fridman (1:10:49.920)

I don't know that I have a good answer for this.

Michael Malice (1:10:52.880)

I don't think it's as pervasive as people think.

Lex Fridman (1:10:56.040)

The number of people who believe conspiracy theory?

Michael Malice (1:10:57.840)

Right, I mean, and also conspiracy theory

Lex Fridman (1:11:00.200)

is a term used to dismiss ideas that have some currency.

Michael Malice (1:11:04.240)

The Constitutional Convention was a conspiracy.

Lex Fridman (1:11:06.800)

The Founding Fathers got together secretly

Michael Malice (1:11:08.440)

on this war to secrecy in Philadelphia,

Lex Fridman (1:11:10.040)

said, we're throwing out the Articles of Confederation,

Michael Malice (1:11:11.520)

we're making a new government, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:11:12.960)

And Luther Martin left, and he told everyone,

Michael Malice (1:11:15.320)

this is a conspiracy, and they're like,

Lex Fridman (1:11:16.580)

yeah, whatever, Luther Martin.

Michael Malice (1:11:17.920)

So, and Jeffrey Epstein was a conspiracy,

Lex Fridman (1:11:20.160)

Harvey Weinstein was a conspiracy,

Michael Malice (1:11:21.680)

Bill Cosby was a conspiracy.

Lex Fridman (1:11:22.720)

They all knew, they didn't care.

Michael Malice (1:11:24.880)

Communist infiltration in America,

Lex Fridman (1:11:26.600)

there's a great book by Eugene Lyons

Michael Malice (1:11:28.760)

called The Red Decade.

Lex Fridman (1:11:30.160)

They all knew every atrocity

Michael Malice (1:11:32.960)

that was done under Stalinism was excused in the West,

Lex Fridman (1:11:36.920)

and if you didn't believe it,

Michael Malice (1:11:37.960)

oh, you've got this crazy anti Russia conspiracy.

Lex Fridman (1:11:40.280)

So it's a term that is weaponized in a negative sense,

Lex Fridman (1:11:43.700)

but that does not at all imply

Lex Fridman (1:11:45.640)

that it does not have very negative real life consequences

Lex Fridman (1:11:49.200)

because it's kind of a cult of one, right?

Lex Fridman (1:11:52.280)

Like I'm at home with my computer,

Michael Malice (1:11:54.080)

I bang into this ideology,

Lex Fridman (1:11:56.120)

anyone who doesn't agree with me,

Michael Malice (1:11:58.160)

they are blind, they're oblivious,

Lex Fridman (1:12:00.120)

mom and dad, my friends, you don't get it.

Michael Malice (1:12:02.880)

We were warned about people like you,

Lex Fridman (1:12:05.260)

and I think there's a very heavy correlation,

Lex Fridman (1:12:08.440)

and I'm not a psychiatrist, of course,

Lex Fridman (1:12:10.040)

between that and certain types of mild mental illness,

Michael Malice (1:12:12.480)

like some kind of paranoid schizophrenia

Lex Fridman (1:12:14.600)

and things like that, because after a certain point,

Michael Malice (1:12:17.160)

if everything is a function of this conspiracy,

Lex Fridman (1:12:20.200)

there's no randomness or beauty in life.

Michael Malice (1:12:22.920)

Yeah, I mean, I don't know if you can say

Lex Fridman (1:12:25.240)

anything interesting about it in the way of advice

Michael Malice (1:12:28.160)

of how to take a step into conspiracy theory world

Lex Fridman (1:12:34.440)

without completely going, like diving deep,

Michael Malice (1:12:37.540)

because it seems like that's what happens.

Lex Fridman (1:12:39.720)

People can't look at Jeffrey Epstein.

Michael Malice (1:12:42.500)

I can tell you what the advice I'd have

Lex Fridman (1:12:44.000)

is, seriously and rigorously, without going,

Michael Malice (1:12:48.040)

because you can look at Jeffrey Epstein

Lex Fridman (1:12:49.760)

and say there's a deeper thing.

Michael Malice (1:12:52.320)

You can always go deeper.

Lex Fridman (1:12:53.880)

It's like Jeffrey Epstein was just a tool

Michael Malice (1:12:55.840)

of the lizard people, and the lizard people are the tool.

Lex Fridman (1:12:59.760)

Well, they say Satanists, in this case.

Michael Malice (1:13:04.400)

Somehow, recently, very popular,

Lex Fridman (1:13:06.520)

spedophiles somehow always involved.

Michael Malice (1:13:08.720)

I'm not understanding any of that.

Lex Fridman (1:13:11.820)

Legitimately, I say this both humorously and seriously.

Michael Malice (1:13:15.160)

I need to look into it, and I guess the bigger question

Lex Fridman (1:13:18.960)

I'm asking, how does a serious human being,

Michael Malice (1:13:21.920)

somebody with a position at a respectable university,

Lex Fridman (1:13:25.920)

look at a conspiracy theory and look into it?

Michael Malice (1:13:28.160)

When I look at somebody like Jeffrey Epstein,

Lex Fridman (1:13:30.600)

who had a role at MIT, and I think I'm not happy,

Michael Malice (1:13:35.600)

personally, I wasn't there when Jeffrey Epstein was there.

Lex Fridman (1:13:42.760)

I'm not happy with the behavior of people now

Michael Malice (1:13:45.880)

about Jeffrey Epstein, about the bureaucracy

Lex Fridman (1:13:49.360)

and the everybody's trying to keep quiet,

Michael Malice (1:13:51.600)

hoping it blows over, without really looking into any,

Lex Fridman (1:13:55.840)

looking in a deep philosophical way

Lex Fridman (1:13:59.560)

of how do we let this human being be among us?

Lex Fridman (1:14:03.760)

Can I give you a better example that is conspiratorial?

Michael Malice (1:14:08.000)

The Speaker of the House,

Lex Fridman (1:14:09.000)

the longest serving Republican Speaker of the House,

Michael Malice (1:14:10.960)

Dennis Hastert, was a pedophile.

Lex Fridman (1:14:12.960)

He went to jail.

Michael Malice (1:14:14.480)

The Democrats don't throw this

Lex Fridman (1:14:16.040)

in the Republicans faces every five minutes.

Michael Malice (1:14:18.320)

Not even Democratic activists.

Lex Fridman (1:14:19.640)

I find that very, very odd, and not what I would predict.

Michael Malice (1:14:23.600)

Now, I'm not saying there's some kind of conspiracy,

Lex Fridman (1:14:26.200)

but when it comes to things like sexual predation,

Michael Malice (1:14:28.980)

which is something that I'm very, very concerned about.

Lex Fridman (1:14:31.640)

I have an uncle now.

Michael Malice (1:14:32.480)

My sister just had her second kid recently.

Lex Fridman (1:14:33.880)

He's adorable.

Michael Malice (1:14:36.360)

It's something that I don't understand.

Lex Fridman (1:14:40.760)

It feels as if there's a lot of people

Michael Malice (1:14:44.120)

who want this to all go away.

Lex Fridman (1:14:45.780)

Now, I think it's also because we don't have

Michael Malice (1:14:47.800)

the vocabulary and framework to discuss it,

Lex Fridman (1:14:50.200)

because when you start talking about things like children

Lex Fridman (1:14:52.240)

and these kind of issues, we want to believe it's all crap,

Lex Fridman (1:14:55.600)

because it's, for those of us

Michael Malice (1:14:56.880)

who aren't in this kind of mindset,

Lex Fridman (1:14:58.440)

the idea that this happens to kids and happens frequently

Michael Malice (1:15:01.160)

is something so horrible that it's just like,

Lex Fridman (1:15:03.720)

I don't even want to hear it,

Lex Fridman (1:15:04.800)

and that does these children and adult survivors

Lex Fridman (1:15:07.320)

an enormous disservice.

Lex Fridman (1:15:08.720)

So I don't know that I have any particular insight on this.

Lex Fridman (1:15:11.340)

But see, how do you, the Catholic Church,

Michael Malice (1:15:14.800)

again, there's all these topics that.

Lex Fridman (1:15:17.120)

Public school teachers are far more proportionately

Michael Malice (1:15:20.000)

peders of children than the Catholic Church.

Lex Fridman (1:15:21.940)

Man, I don't know what, you're right, you're right.

Michael Malice (1:15:24.640)

Perhaps I've been reading a lot about Stalin and Hitler,

Lex Fridman (1:15:29.640)

somehow it's more comforting to be able to.

Michael Malice (1:15:32.840)

Yeah, because it's there, and then.

Lex Fridman (1:15:34.320)

And then, and then the atrocities that are happening now,

Michael Malice (1:15:38.520)

it's a little bit more difficult because.

Lex Fridman (1:15:39.920)

There was a New York Times article, sorry to interrupt you,

Michael Malice (1:15:41.600)

where they had people tracking down child pornography.

Lex Fridman (1:15:45.320)

And I think the article said they didn't have enough people

Michael Malice (1:15:47.560)

just to cover the videotapes of infants being raped.

Lex Fridman (1:15:51.400)

And we can even wrap our heads around reading Lolita,

Michael Malice (1:15:54.520)

like, okay, she's 14, 12, okay, it's still a female.

Lex Fridman (1:15:57.440)

An infant, it's something that,

Michael Malice (1:15:59.760)

again, like with the Stalin example,

Lex Fridman (1:16:01.480)

we sat down here for a hundred years,

Michael Malice (1:16:02.740)

we would never think of something like this,

Lex Fridman (1:16:03.840)

think of it in a sexual context, it makes no sense.

Michael Malice (1:16:06.600)

So, and the fact that this is international,

Lex Fridman (1:16:08.820)

okay, we eliminated completely in America.

Michael Malice (1:16:11.280)

Well, then they're gonna go find,

Lex Fridman (1:16:12.760)

there's infants all over the world,

Michael Malice (1:16:14.240)

there's video cameras all over the world.

Lex Fridman (1:16:15.840)

So then it has to become a conspiracy

Michael Malice (1:16:18.420)

because someone has to film it, I'm filming it,

Lex Fridman (1:16:20.780)

you're buying it, your kid.

Michael Malice (1:16:23.120)

It is literally a conspiratorial,

Lex Fridman (1:16:25.520)

not in the sense of like a mafia conspiracy

Michael Malice (1:16:27.360)

or some government illuminati,

Lex Fridman (1:16:29.360)

but there is our networks designed to produce this product.

Michael Malice (1:16:33.980)

See, but like what I'm trying to do now,

Lex Fridman (1:16:38.480)

and part of the, one of the nice things

Michael Malice (1:16:40.360)

with like a podcast and other things I'm involved with

Lex Fridman (1:16:43.000)

is removing myself from having any kind of boss

Lex Fridman (1:16:46.720)

so I can do whatever that helps.

Lex Fridman (1:16:48.200)

Oh, it's so wonderful, that just happened to me,

Michael Malice (1:16:50.280)

it's the most wonderful thing ever.

Lex Fridman (1:16:52.480)

So I could do, I can actually, in moderation,

Michael Malice (1:16:55.520)

consider like look into stuff.

Lex Fridman (1:16:57.760)

Careful though, I was gonna write a book about this

Michael Malice (1:16:59.880)

that people pointed out,

Lex Fridman (1:17:00.920)

you sure wanna do this research?

Michael Malice (1:17:02.960)

Because if you start Googling around

Lex Fridman (1:17:04.040)

for this kind of stuff, it's on your computer.

Michael Malice (1:17:06.660)

Oh, in that sense, I'm more concerned about,

Lex Fridman (1:17:09.800)

you know, it's the Nietzsche thing,

Michael Malice (1:17:11.080)

looking into the abyss, like you wanna be very,

Lex Fridman (1:17:13.760)

I believe I can do this kind of thing in moderation

Michael Malice (1:17:16.660)

without slipping into the depths.

Lex Fridman (1:17:19.280)

I think that's intelligence, that's like,

Michael Malice (1:17:23.520)

I recently quote unquote looked into like

Lex Fridman (1:17:26.760)

the UFO community, the extraterrestrial,

Michael Malice (1:17:30.640)

whatever community.

Lex Fridman (1:17:32.040)

I think it always frustrated me

Michael Malice (1:17:34.560)

that the scientific community like rolled their eyes

Lex Fridman (1:17:37.240)

at all the UFO sightings, all that kind of stuff.

Michael Malice (1:17:40.040)

Even though there could be fascinating, beautiful,

Lex Fridman (1:17:42.760)

physical fun, like, first of all,

Michael Malice (1:17:44.720)

there could legit. Like ball lightning.

Lex Fridman (1:17:46.320)

The ball lightning, right, that's at the very basic level

Michael Malice (1:17:49.960)

is a fascinating thing.

Lex Fridman (1:17:51.840)

And also, it could be something like,

Michael Malice (1:17:57.040)

I mean, I don't know, but it could be something interesting,

Lex Fridman (1:17:59.500)

like worth looking into.

Michael Malice (1:18:02.080)

My grandfather was an air traffic controller

Lex Fridman (1:18:04.240)

back in the Soviet Union.

Lex Fridman (1:18:05.800)

And he said, we saw this stuff all the time.

Lex Fridman (1:18:08.280)

These are planes that were not moving

Michael Malice (1:18:09.800)

or whatever things that were not moving

Lex Fridman (1:18:11.400)

according to anything we knew about.

Lex Fridman (1:18:13.400)

So it's absolutely real.

Lex Fridman (1:18:14.640)

He's not some jerk with an iPhone in his backyard.

Michael Malice (1:18:18.040)

This is a military professional who understood technology,

Lex Fridman (1:18:22.640)

who knew where the secret bases were.

Lex Fridman (1:18:24.120)

So if he's telling me, it doesn't mean it's Martians,

Lex Fridman (1:18:27.700)

but he's telling me there's something there.

Lex Fridman (1:18:29.160)

And there are many examples of these like military people.

Lex Fridman (1:18:31.560)

These aren't some layman who sees a store.

Michael Malice (1:18:33.320)

Yeah, these are legit people.

Lex Fridman (1:18:34.160)

Yeah, and so you can dismiss,

Michael Malice (1:18:37.560)

when you're talking about professionals

Lex Fridman (1:18:38.680)

who are around aircraft all the time,

Michael Malice (1:18:40.280)

who are familiar with aircraft at the highest levels,

Lex Fridman (1:18:42.440)

and they're seeing things that they can't explain,

Michael Malice (1:18:45.000)

they're clearly not stupid

Lex Fridman (1:18:46.240)

and they're clearly not under form.

Lex Fridman (1:18:47.360)

So there's different ways to dismiss it.

Lex Fridman (1:18:49.880)

For example, you were saying

Michael Malice (1:18:53.240)

that trolling is a good mechanism.

Lex Fridman (1:18:55.520)

I'm against that, but I'm not dismissing it

Michael Malice (1:18:57.980)

by like rolling my eyes.

Lex Fridman (1:19:00.480)

I'm considering legitimately that you're way smarter than me

Lex Fridman (1:19:04.240)

and you understand the world better than me.

Lex Fridman (1:19:05.800)

Like I'm allowing myself to consider that possibility

Lex Fridman (1:19:08.200)

and thinking about it.

Lex Fridman (1:19:09.040)

Like maybe that's true, like seriously considering it.

Michael Malice (1:19:12.960)

That's what I feel the way people should approach

Lex Fridman (1:19:17.120)

intelligent people, serious quote unquote people,

Michael Malice (1:19:20.040)

scientists should approach conspiracy theories.

Lex Fridman (1:19:22.400)

Like look at it carefully.

Lex Fridman (1:19:26.680)

First of all, is it possible that the earth is flat?

Lex Fridman (1:19:29.400)

It's not trivial to show that the earth is not flat.

Michael Malice (1:19:32.560)

It's a very good exercise.

Lex Fridman (1:19:33.720)

You should go through it.

Michael Malice (1:19:34.560)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:19:35.400)

But once you go through it,

Michael Malice (1:19:36.400)

you realize that based on a lot of data

Lex Fridman (1:19:41.120)

and a lot of evidence,

Lex Fridman (1:19:42.360)

and there's a lot of different experiments

Lex Fridman (1:19:43.680)

you can do yourself actually

Michael Malice (1:19:45.600)

to show that the earth is not flat.

Lex Fridman (1:19:47.200)

Okay.

Michael Malice (1:19:48.040)

The same kind of process can be taken

Lex Fridman (1:19:50.840)

for a lot of different conspiracy theories

Lex Fridman (1:19:52.960)

and it's helpful.

Lex Fridman (1:19:54.120)

And without slipping into the depths of lizard people

Michael Malice (1:19:58.640)

running everything.

Lex Fridman (1:20:00.520)

That's where I've now listened to two episodes

Michael Malice (1:20:06.240)

of Alex Jones's show

Lex Fridman (1:20:08.600)

because he goes crazy deep

Michael Malice (1:20:12.120)

into different kind of worldviews

Lex Fridman (1:20:16.880)

that I was not familiar with.

Michael Malice (1:20:18.240)

Right.

Lex Fridman (1:20:19.120)

And I don't know what to make of it.

Michael Malice (1:20:20.560)

I mean, the reason I've been listening to it

Lex Fridman (1:20:22.000)

is because there's been a lot of discussions

Michael Malice (1:20:25.520)

about platforming of different people.

Lex Fridman (1:20:27.280)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:20:28.120)

And I've been thinking about what does censorship mean?

Lex Fridman (1:20:30.880)

I've been thinking about whether,

Michael Malice (1:20:34.320)

because Joe Rogan said he's gonna have Alex on again.

Lex Fridman (1:20:39.320)

And then I enjoyed it as a fan,

Michael Malice (1:20:43.640)

just the entertainment of it.

Lex Fridman (1:20:45.240)

But then I actually listened to Alex

Lex Fridman (1:20:48.880)

and I was thinking,

Lex Fridman (1:20:49.720)

is this human being dangerous for the world?

Lex Fridman (1:20:53.120)

Like is the ideas he's saying dangerous for the world?

Lex Fridman (1:20:55.520)

I'm more concerned with the Russian conspiracy

Michael Malice (1:20:57.400)

that we had for three years.

Lex Fridman (1:20:59.120)

The claim that our election was not legitimate

Lex Fridman (1:21:01.560)

and that everyone in the Trump White House

Lex Fridman (1:21:02.900)

is a stooge of Putin.

Lex Fridman (1:21:04.320)

And the people who said this had no consequences for this.

Lex Fridman (1:21:07.200)

Alex Jones doesn't have the respect that they do.

Michael Malice (1:21:10.060)

These are both areas of concern for me.

Lex Fridman (1:21:12.080)

But he might if he's given more platform.

Lex Fridman (1:21:15.320)

So like the people who've,

Lex Fridman (1:21:18.280)

and I'd be curious to,

Michael Malice (1:21:19.760)

I'm also a little bit,

Lex Fridman (1:21:22.280)

I don't know what to think about the idea

Michael Malice (1:21:24.080)

that Russians hacked the election.

Lex Fridman (1:21:27.200)

That it seems too easily accepted in the mainstream media.

Michael Malice (1:21:30.480)

Hillary Clinton said that how they did it

Lex Fridman (1:21:33.940)

was they had ads on the dark web.

Michael Malice (1:21:37.620)

Now you and I both know what the dark web is.

Lex Fridman (1:21:40.360)

So the possibility of ads on the dark web

Michael Malice (1:21:43.040)

having a proportional influence on the election

Lex Fridman (1:21:47.140)

is literally zero.

Michael Malice (1:21:48.380)

Perhaps I should look into it more carefully,

Lex Fridman (1:21:50.060)

but I've found very little good data

Michael Malice (1:21:53.860)

on exactly what did the Russians do to hack elections.

Lex Fridman (1:21:58.220)

Like technically speaking,

Lex Fridman (1:22:00.080)

what are we talking about here?

Lex Fridman (1:22:01.320)

Like as opposed to these kind of weird,

Michael Malice (1:22:03.780)

like the best thing there's a couple of books

Lex Fridman (1:22:05.640)

and like reporting on like farms.

Michael Malice (1:22:09.360)

Like it's.

Lex Fridman (1:22:10.200)

Troll farms, yeah.

Michael Malice (1:22:11.020)

Troll farms.

Lex Fridman (1:22:12.080)

But let's see the data.

Lex Fridman (1:22:14.720)

Like how many exactly?

Lex Fridman (1:22:16.720)

What are we talking about?

Lex Fridman (1:22:17.720)

Like what were they doing?

Lex Fridman (1:22:19.880)

Not just like some anecdotal discussions of,

Lex Fridman (1:22:22.960)

but like relative to the bigger,

Lex Fridman (1:22:26.700)

the size of Facebook.

Michael Malice (1:22:28.720)

Like if there's a few people, several hundreds,

Lex Fridman (1:22:32.120)

say posting different political things on Facebook

Michael Malice (1:22:36.640)

relative to the full size of Facebook.

Lex Fridman (1:22:39.680)

Let's look at the full size.

Michael Malice (1:22:41.680)

Right, you're thinking like a scientist.

Lex Fridman (1:22:42.800)

The actual impact.

Michael Malice (1:22:43.640)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:22:44.480)

Like, cause it's fascinating the social dynamics

Michael Malice (1:22:47.480)

of viral information of videos.

Lex Fridman (1:22:50.440)

When Donald Trump retweets something,

Michael Malice (1:22:53.800)

I think that's understudied the effect of that.

Lex Fridman (1:22:56.520)

Like he retweeted a clip with Joe Rogan

Lex Fridman (1:23:01.880)

and Mike Tyson, where Mike Tyson says

Lex Fridman (1:23:05.480)

that he finds fighting orgasmic.

Michael Malice (1:23:08.960)

I don't understand that, but they'd be fascinating

Lex Fridman (1:23:10.880)

to think like what is the ripple effect

Michael Malice (1:23:12.640)

on the social dynamic of our society

Lex Fridman (1:23:16.740)

from retweeting a clip about Mike Tyson.

Lex Fridman (1:23:19.640)

What's your favorite Trump tweet?

Lex Fridman (1:23:22.320)

I tuned them out a long time ago, unfortunately.

Michael Malice (1:23:26.800)

I have, this goes to the,

Lex Fridman (1:23:33.080)

you and I have a different relationship with Donald Trump.

Michael Malice (1:23:35.400)

You appreciate the art form of trolling.

Lex Fridman (1:23:37.360)

Sexual versus nonsexual.

Michael Malice (1:23:38.200)

Nonsexual, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:23:39.560)

So I tend to prefer Bill Clinton.

Michael Malice (1:23:44.320)

He's more my type.

Lex Fridman (1:23:45.160)

No, I'm just kidding.

Michael Malice (1:23:46.000)

I don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:23:47.240)

You don't like that consent stuff.

Michael Malice (1:23:48.760)

No, the consent, no.

Lex Fridman (1:23:50.060)

No, you appreciate the art form of trolling

Lex Fridman (1:23:53.460)

and Donald Trump is a master.

Lex Fridman (1:23:57.060)

He's the da Vinci of trolling.

Lex Fridman (1:24:00.140)

So I tend to think that trolling

Lex Fridman (1:24:03.580)

is ultimately destructive for society

Lex Fridman (1:24:05.860)

and then Donald Trump takes nothing seriously.

Lex Fridman (1:24:07.940)

He's playing a game.

Michael Malice (1:24:09.100)

He's making a game out of everything.

Lex Fridman (1:24:10.500)

He takes a lot of things seriously.

Michael Malice (1:24:11.420)

I think he's very committed to international peace.

Lex Fridman (1:24:14.620)

Sorry, I shouldn't speak so strong.

Michael Malice (1:24:16.780)

I think he takes, actually, yes,

Lex Fridman (1:24:18.900)

a lot of things seriously.

Michael Malice (1:24:20.500)

I meant on Twitter and the game of politics.

Lex Fridman (1:24:25.260)

Yeah.

Michael Malice (1:24:26.100)

He is, he only takes.

Lex Fridman (1:24:29.540)

Irreverently.

Michael Malice (1:24:30.460)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:24:31.300)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:24:32.140)

And I appreciate it.

Lex Fridman (1:24:35.100)

I just would like to focus on

Michael Malice (1:24:39.140)

genuine, real expressions of humanity,

Lex Fridman (1:24:43.380)

especially positive.

Michael Malice (1:24:44.660)

Well, this is one.

Lex Fridman (1:24:45.580)

This is my favorite tweet.

Michael Malice (1:24:46.620)

My fans got it lasered, etched,

Lex Fridman (1:24:48.780)

and put in a block of Lucite for me.

Lex Fridman (1:24:50.940)

And he said, every time I speak of the losers and haters,

Lex Fridman (1:24:54.940)

I do so with great affection.

Michael Malice (1:24:56.740)

They cannot help the fact that they were born fucked up.

Lex Fridman (1:24:59.500)

That's an actual Trump tweet.

Michael Malice (1:25:00.740)

It's my favorite one.

Lex Fridman (1:25:03.580)

And that's kind of nice.

Lex Fridman (1:25:04.580)

And that's love.

Lex Fridman (1:25:05.420)

That's love.

Michael Malice (1:25:06.260)

That's kind of nice.

Lex Fridman (1:25:07.100)

Great affection.

Michael Malice (1:25:08.620)

That, I mean.

Lex Fridman (1:25:11.300)

Exclamation point.

Michael Malice (1:25:12.420)

I broke Lex.

Lex Fridman (1:25:19.220)

What is love?

Michael Malice (1:25:21.500)

Yeah, the sparks are flying.

Lex Fridman (1:25:22.900)

But I have to kind of analyze that

Michael Malice (1:25:25.860)

from a literary perspective,

Lex Fridman (1:25:27.500)

but it seems like there's love in there.

Michael Malice (1:25:29.860)

Like a little bit.

Lex Fridman (1:25:30.700)

Yeah.

Michael Malice (1:25:31.540)

It's a little bit lighthearted.

Lex Fridman (1:25:32.940)

Cause he's saying, even when I'm going after them,

Michael Malice (1:25:34.900)

don't take it so seriously.

Lex Fridman (1:25:36.260)

Yeah.

Michael Malice (1:25:37.100)

That's nice.

Lex Fridman (1:25:37.940)

It is nice.

Michael Malice (1:25:38.780)

That's acknowledging the game of it.

Lex Fridman (1:25:39.980)

Yes.

Michael Malice (1:25:40.820)

That's nice.

Lex Fridman (1:25:41.980)

He's not always.

Michael Malice (1:25:43.460)

There's some things he's very, very vicious.

Lex Fridman (1:25:45.020)

Yeah.

Michael Malice (1:25:45.860)

Very vicious.

Lex Fridman (1:25:46.700)

He's done things that I can tell you about

Michael Malice (1:25:48.540)

that I'm like, this is a bad person.

Lex Fridman (1:25:51.180)

What do you think about one of the,

Michael Malice (1:25:53.100)

okay, listen, I'm not,

Lex Fridman (1:25:55.340)

for people listening,

Michael Malice (1:25:56.420)

I do not have Trump derangement syndrome.

Lex Fridman (1:25:59.700)

I don't, I see,

Michael Malice (1:26:01.660)

I try to look for the good and the bad in everybody.

Lex Fridman (1:26:05.580)

One thing, perhaps it's irrational,

Lex Fridman (1:26:07.900)

but perhaps because I've been reading history,

Lex Fridman (1:26:10.340)

I, the one triggering thing for me

Michael Malice (1:26:14.540)

is the delaying of elections.

Lex Fridman (1:26:18.460)

I believe in elections.

Lex Fridman (1:26:20.100)

And this is the part that you probably disagree with,

Lex Fridman (1:26:24.820)

but I, you know, I believe in the value of people voting.

Lex Fridman (1:26:29.420)

And I just seen too many dictators,

Lex Fridman (1:26:32.340)

the place where they finally,

Michael Malice (1:26:34.180)

the big switch happens

Lex Fridman (1:26:36.340)

when you question the legitimacy of elections.

Michael Malice (1:26:39.780)

Who's been questioning the legitimacy of elections

Lex Fridman (1:26:41.540)

for the last three years?

Michael Malice (1:26:43.100)

I've only heard Donald Trump do it last year,

Lex Fridman (1:26:45.660)

but the last three years you're saying somebody else?

Michael Malice (1:26:48.540)

You don't think, not my president, illegitimate,

Lex Fridman (1:26:51.340)

we're not gonna normalize him as president,

Michael Malice (1:26:52.980)

Russia hacked this election, impeached,

Lex Fridman (1:26:55.540)

you're not a real president.

Lex Fridman (1:26:56.380)

You don't think that's questioning the legitimacy of 2016?

Lex Fridman (1:26:59.140)

Nah, it's a good, I haven't been paying attention enough,

Lex Fridman (1:27:02.100)

but I would imagine that argument has been,

Lex Fridman (1:27:05.780)

that I haven't actually heard too many people,

Lex Fridman (1:27:08.900)

but I imagine that's been a popular thing to say.

Lex Fridman (1:27:12.340)

Okay, I, but nevertheless, that's a part,

Michael Malice (1:27:16.620)

that didn't, that's not a statement

Lex Fridman (1:27:19.420)

that gained power enough to say

Michael Malice (1:27:22.500)

that Barack Obama will keep being president

Lex Fridman (1:27:27.100)

or Hillary Clinton should be president.

Michael Malice (1:27:30.380)

Newsweek had that article,

Lex Fridman (1:27:31.340)

how Hillary Clinton could still be president, Newsweek.

Michael Malice (1:27:34.100)

No, but she's not.

Lex Fridman (1:27:35.780)

That's what I'm saying.

Michael Malice (1:27:36.620)

My worry isn't, my worry isn't saying

Lex Fridman (1:27:41.220)

that the election was illegitimate

Lex Fridman (1:27:43.020)

and people whining at a mass scale

Lex Fridman (1:27:45.500)

and then Fox News or CNN reporting for years

Michael Malice (1:27:49.340)

or books being written for years.

Lex Fridman (1:27:51.060)

My worry is legitimately martial law.

Michael Malice (1:27:54.900)

A person stays president.

Lex Fridman (1:27:57.860)

So here's the issue.

Michael Malice (1:27:59.140)

Like there's a phase shift that happens in a dictatorship.

Lex Fridman (1:28:02.500)

I did a book on North Korea.

Michael Malice (1:28:04.260)

I'm not someone who thinks dictatorship should be taken

Lex Fridman (1:28:06.900)

lightly.

Michael Malice (1:28:07.740)

I'm not someone who thinks it can't happen here.

Lex Fridman (1:28:09.940)

I think a lot of times people are desperate

Michael Malice (1:28:12.220)

for dictatorship.

Lex Fridman (1:28:13.100)

So I am with you.

Lex Fridman (1:28:14.100)

And I think this is something,

Lex Fridman (1:28:15.460)

if you're gonna hand wave it away,

Michael Malice (1:28:17.020)

everyone else hand waved it away.

Lex Fridman (1:28:18.380)

Hitler's never gonna be chancellor.

Michael Malice (1:28:19.500)

He's like lunatic.

Lex Fridman (1:28:20.340)

Oh, please.

Michael Malice (1:28:21.180)

He's a joke.

Lex Fridman (1:28:22.020)

He's a joke.

Michael Malice (1:28:22.860)

They couldn't find a publisher for Mein Kampf in English

Lex Fridman (1:28:24.900)

because this is some guy from some random minor party

Michael Malice (1:28:28.140)

in Germany spouting nonsense.

Lex Fridman (1:28:29.500)

Who's gonna read this crap?

Lex Fridman (1:28:31.220)

So I completely agree with you in that regard.

Lex Fridman (1:28:33.260)

I don't think we're there.

Michael Malice (1:28:34.300)

My point is Donald Trump this year

Lex Fridman (1:28:37.820)

had every pathway open to him to declare martial law.

Michael Malice (1:28:42.580)

The cities are being burned down.

Lex Fridman (1:28:44.460)

He could have very easily sent in the tanks

Lex Fridman (1:28:47.260)

and people would have been applauding him from his side.

Lex Fridman (1:28:49.500)

You make me feel so good right now.

Lex Fridman (1:28:50.540)

But am I wrong though?

Lex Fridman (1:28:51.620)

No, I...

Lex Fridman (1:28:52.460)

What he did, he tweeted out to Mayor Wheeler of Portland.

Lex Fridman (1:28:56.020)

He said, call me.

Michael Malice (1:28:58.420)

We will solve this in minutes, but you have to call.

Lex Fridman (1:29:03.180)

And he sat in his hands and they said, oh, it's his fault.

Michael Malice (1:29:06.500)

The city is burning down.

Lex Fridman (1:29:07.500)

He's not doing anything.

Lex Fridman (1:29:08.340)

And he goes, I'm not doing anything

Lex Fridman (1:29:10.100)

until you ask me to do it.

Lex Fridman (1:29:12.220)

So I think that is,

Lex Fridman (1:29:13.980)

even if you think he's an aspiring dictator,

Michael Malice (1:29:16.900)

that is at least a sign that there is some restraint

Lex Fridman (1:29:20.700)

on his aspirations.

Lex Fridman (1:29:23.380)

Can I just take that in as a beautiful moment of hope?

Lex Fridman (1:29:29.380)

So I'm gonna remember this moment.

Michael Malice (1:29:30.700)

I'm gonna miss Ted Cruz, beautiful Ted.

Lex Fridman (1:29:33.660)

I'm gonna remember that.

Michael Malice (1:29:34.500)

I mean, I should say that perhaps I'm irrationally,

Lex Fridman (1:29:39.740)

this is the one moment where I feel myself

Michael Malice (1:29:41.580)

being a little unhealthy.

Lex Fridman (1:29:42.980)

I don't think you're being irrational.

Michael Malice (1:29:44.140)

I think there's an asymmetry

Lex Fridman (1:29:46.300)

because it's kind of like, okay,

Michael Malice (1:29:48.500)

either if I leave the house, it's like Russian roulette.

Lex Fridman (1:29:51.100)

Yeah, maybe it's like a one in six shot.

Michael Malice (1:29:52.700)

I'm pulling the trigger, I'm killing myself,

Lex Fridman (1:29:54.340)

but that's one in six.

Michael Malice (1:29:56.140)

That's not, and the consequences are so dire

Lex Fridman (1:29:59.340)

that a little paranoia would go a long way.

Michael Malice (1:30:01.660)

There's something that.

Lex Fridman (1:30:02.500)

But you can't go back.

Michael Malice (1:30:04.140)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:30:05.220)

It's an asymmetry, yeah.

Michael Malice (1:30:06.580)

The thing is, the thing that makes Donald Trump new to me,

Lex Fridman (1:30:11.660)

and again, I'm a little naive in these things,

Lex Fridman (1:30:14.620)

but he surprised me

Lex Fridman (1:30:19.620)

in how many ways he just didn't play by the rules.

Michael Malice (1:30:23.900)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:30:25.220)

And he's made me, a little ant in this ant colony,

Lex Fridman (1:30:30.500)

think like, well, do you have to play by the rules at all?

Lex Fridman (1:30:34.460)

Right.

Lex Fridman (1:30:35.300)

Like, why are we having elections?

Lex Fridman (1:30:38.180)

Why did you say, like, it's coronavirus time?

Michael Malice (1:30:41.500)

Like, it's not healthy to have elections.

Lex Fridman (1:30:44.780)

Like, we shouldn't be, like, I could,

Michael Malice (1:30:47.140)

if I put my dictator hat on.

Lex Fridman (1:30:48.820)

Nancy Pelosi said that Joe Biden shouldn't debate.

Lex Fridman (1:30:52.180)

Yeah, did she?

Lex Fridman (1:30:53.940)

Yes.

Michael Malice (1:30:54.820)

She says she shouldn't dignify Trump with a debate.

Lex Fridman (1:30:56.980)

He's the president.

Michael Malice (1:30:57.820)

He could be the worst president on earth,

Lex Fridman (1:30:59.180)

evil, despicable monster.

Michael Malice (1:31:01.020)

I'll take that as an argument.

Lex Fridman (1:31:02.100)

So she's playing politics, but she's.

Michael Malice (1:31:03.660)

I don't think that's playing politics.

Lex Fridman (1:31:04.780)

I think when there's a certain point where things get,

Michael Malice (1:31:08.100)

when you start attacking institutions

Lex Fridman (1:31:10.220)

for the emergencies of the moment and acting arbitrarily,

Michael Malice (1:31:14.020)

that is when things are the slippery slope.

Lex Fridman (1:31:15.940)

Yeah, so you're saying debates is one of the institutions.

Michael Malice (1:31:18.900)

Like, that's one of the traditions to have the debates.

Lex Fridman (1:31:21.020)

I think the debates are extremely important.

Lex Fridman (1:31:23.300)

And now I don't think that someone's a good debater

Lex Fridman (1:31:25.420)

is gonna make a good president.

Michael Malice (1:31:26.540)

I mean, that's a big problem.

Lex Fridman (1:31:27.780)

But you're just saying this is attacking

Michael Malice (1:31:29.140)

just yet another tradition, yet another.

Lex Fridman (1:31:32.300)

You know, like, how if you're dating,

Michael Malice (1:31:33.300)

if you're married to someone

Lex Fridman (1:31:34.220)

and someone throws out the word divorce,

Michael Malice (1:31:35.660)

you can't unring that bell, you threw it out there.

Lex Fridman (1:31:38.020)

I'm saying you don't throw things out like that

Michael Malice (1:31:40.260)

unless you really are ready to go down this road.

Lex Fridman (1:31:43.620)

And I think that is,

Michael Malice (1:31:44.660)

there's nothing in the constitution about debates.

Lex Fridman (1:31:46.540)

We've only had them since 1980,

Lex Fridman (1:31:48.220)

but still, I think they are extremely important.

Lex Fridman (1:31:51.060)

It's also a great chance for Joe Biden

Michael Malice (1:31:52.780)

to tell him to his face, you're full of crap,

Lex Fridman (1:31:55.140)

here's what you did, here's what you did,

Michael Malice (1:31:56.260)

here's what you did.

Lex Fridman (1:31:57.100)

So fascinating that you're both, you acknowledge that,

Lex Fridman (1:32:01.300)

and yet you also see the value

Lex Fridman (1:32:03.820)

of tearing down the entire thing.

Lex Fridman (1:32:06.300)

So you're both worried about no debates,

Lex Fridman (1:32:09.500)

or at least in your voice, in your tone.

Michael Malice (1:32:11.260)

There's a great quote by Chesterton.

Lex Fridman (1:32:13.940)

I'm not a fan of him at all.

Lex Fridman (1:32:15.520)

But he says, before you tear down a fence,

Lex Fridman (1:32:17.180)

make sure you know why they put it up first.

Lex Fridman (1:32:19.260)

So I am for tearing it all down,

Lex Fridman (1:32:22.580)

but there's something called like a controlled demolition,

Michael Malice (1:32:24.300)

like building sevens, or there's.

Lex Fridman (1:32:26.460)

Allegedly.

Michael Malice (1:32:29.500)

We knew we were in Tel Aviv.

Lex Fridman (1:32:32.540)

Hashtag building seven.

Michael Malice (1:32:34.460)

We knew we were in Tel Aviv.

Lex Fridman (1:32:36.060)

Wow, you're faster than me.

Michael Malice (1:32:37.700)

You're operating in a different level.

Lex Fridman (1:32:40.580)

I need to upgrade my operating system.

Michael Malice (1:32:43.260)

I told you Windows 95.

Lex Fridman (1:32:45.260)

You're trying, yeah.

Michael Malice (1:32:48.580)

Building seven.

Lex Fridman (1:32:49.660)

If you're gonna, it's like Indiana Jones, right?

Michael Malice (1:32:52.340)

If you're gonna pull something away,

Lex Fridman (1:32:54.220)

make sure you have something in place first,

Michael Malice (1:32:55.820)

as opposed to just breaking it,

Lex Fridman (1:32:56.980)

and then just, especially in politics,

Michael Malice (1:32:59.540)

because it escalates.

Lex Fridman (1:33:00.940)

And when things escalate without any kind of response,

Michael Malice (1:33:04.220)

it can go in a very bad, that's when Napoleon comes in.

Lex Fridman (1:33:07.060)

So what's your prediction about the Biden Trump debates?

Michael Malice (1:33:14.300)

Again, I just have this weird,

Lex Fridman (1:33:16.700)

maybe we'll return to maybe not in this,

Lex Fridman (1:33:19.660)

how do we put more love into the world?

Lex Fridman (1:33:22.380)

And one of the things that worries me about the debates

Michael Malice (1:33:26.540)

is it'll be the world's greatest troll

Lex Fridman (1:33:32.860)

against the grandpa on the porch.

Michael Malice (1:33:36.460)

Who crapped his pants.

Lex Fridman (1:33:37.540)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:33:38.660)

And it will not put more love into the world.

Lex Fridman (1:33:42.380)

It will create more mockery, like.

Michael Malice (1:33:46.500)

Joe Biden did a great job against Paul Ryan in 2012.

Lex Fridman (1:33:50.660)

Paul Ryan was no lightweight.

Michael Malice (1:33:51.820)

No one thought he was a lightweight.

Lex Fridman (1:33:53.180)

Joe Biden handed Sarah Pail in her ass in 2008,

Michael Malice (1:33:56.700)

which isn't as easy to do as you think,

Lex Fridman (1:33:58.100)

because she's a female.

Lex Fridman (1:33:59.020)

So you're gonna come off as bullying.

Lex Fridman (1:34:00.340)

That's something you have to worry about.

Lex Fridman (1:34:01.740)

So the guy isn't,

Lex Fridman (1:34:04.820)

I think he is in the stages of cognitive decline.

Lex Fridman (1:34:09.140)

So I think it's going to be interesting.

Lex Fridman (1:34:11.980)

I want it to be,

Michael Malice (1:34:13.620)

like Mike Tyson beating up a child,

Lex Fridman (1:34:18.100)

cause it'll be a source of amusement to me.

Lex Fridman (1:34:20.860)

But I don't know how it's going to go.

Lex Fridman (1:34:22.220)

Is it possible that Joe Biden will be the Mike Tyson?

Michael Malice (1:34:24.820)

Yes, because in his last debate with Bernie,

Lex Fridman (1:34:27.020)

he was perfectly fine.

Lex Fridman (1:34:28.500)

And again, the guy was a sender for decades.

Lex Fridman (1:34:30.380)

And I don't think anyone,

Michael Malice (1:34:31.740)

if you looked at Joe Biden in 2010,

Lex Fridman (1:34:35.020)

would have thought this guy is going to be,

Michael Malice (1:34:36.620)

have his ass handed him a debate.

Lex Fridman (1:34:37.940)

You wouldn't think that at all.

Lex Fridman (1:34:39.260)

So I don't know who we're going to see.

Lex Fridman (1:34:41.460)

Plus he's got a lot of room to attack Trump.

Lex Fridman (1:34:45.100)

So I'm sure he's going to come strapped and ready

Lex Fridman (1:34:47.500)

and he's going to have his talking points

Lex Fridman (1:34:49.460)

and watch Trump dance, try to tap dance around him.

Lex Fridman (1:34:51.980)

And if he's in a position,

Michael Malice (1:34:52.820)

I don't know what the rules of the debate are,

Lex Fridman (1:34:54.260)

to actually nail him to the wall,

Michael Malice (1:34:56.820)

it might actually,

Lex Fridman (1:34:57.660)

I'm sure he's going to have a lot of lines too.

Michael Malice (1:34:59.420)

The problem is Trump is the master counter puncher.

Lex Fridman (1:35:01.860)

So like when Hillary's had her line,

Michael Malice (1:35:04.180)

she's like, well, it's a good thing that Donald Trump

Lex Fridman (1:35:06.820)

isn't in charge of our legal system.

Lex Fridman (1:35:08.460)

And he's like, yeah, you'd be in jail.

Lex Fridman (1:35:10.260)

It's like, oh, lady, you set him up.

Michael Malice (1:35:13.980)

That's painful to watch, those debates.

Lex Fridman (1:35:16.700)

I mean, there's something, I think it's actually analogous.

Michael Malice (1:35:20.500)

I've come to think of it,

Lex Fridman (1:35:22.060)

your conversation with me right now,

Michael Malice (1:35:24.660)

some Sleepy Joe, I'm playing the role of Sleepy Joe.

Lex Fridman (1:35:28.900)

I actually connect to Joe because there's,

Michael Malice (1:35:32.940)

I'm also incontinent.

Lex Fridman (1:35:35.180)

There's like these weird pauses that he does.

Michael Malice (1:35:37.540)

Yes, he does.

Lex Fridman (1:35:38.620)

I do the same thing and it annoys the shit out of me

Michael Malice (1:35:42.300)

that like in mid sentence,

Lex Fridman (1:35:44.940)

I'll start saying a different thing and take a tangent.

Michael Malice (1:35:49.380)

I'm not as slow and drunk as I sound, always.

Lex Fridman (1:35:54.460)

I swear I'm more intelligent underneath it.

Michael Malice (1:35:56.460)

I'm slower but less drunk.

Lex Fridman (1:35:57.660)

Yes, exactly.

Lex Fridman (1:36:00.140)

But the result, one of those is true, but not both, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:36:03.700)

And Trump, just like you, are a master counter puncher.

Lex Fridman (1:36:09.140)

So it's gonna be messy.

Lex Fridman (1:36:11.860)

Here's the other thing, in all seriousness,

Michael Malice (1:36:13.380)

Chris Wallace is the moderator.

Lex Fridman (1:36:15.340)

Chris Wallace has interviewed Trump several times

Lex Fridman (1:36:17.300)

and he was a tough, tough questioner.

Lex Fridman (1:36:21.360)

So I don't think he's gonna come in there

Michael Malice (1:36:23.700)

with softball questions.

Lex Fridman (1:36:25.160)

I think he's really going to try to nail Trump down,

Michael Malice (1:36:28.220)

which is tough to do.

Lex Fridman (1:36:29.620)

I like him a lot.

Michael Malice (1:36:30.660)

Yeah, and he's like, Mr. President, sir,

Lex Fridman (1:36:32.880)

that's not accurate, blah, blah, blah.

Michael Malice (1:36:33.920)

He's done it.

Lex Fridman (1:36:34.760)

And Trump gets very frustrated

Michael Malice (1:36:36.340)

because he doesn't just let him say whatever he wants

Lex Fridman (1:36:38.060)

and he hits him with the follow up.

Michael Malice (1:36:41.980)

I guess he's on Fox News.

Lex Fridman (1:36:43.700)

And I listen to his Sunday program every once in a while.

Michael Malice (1:36:49.260)

He gives me hope that, I don't know,

Lex Fridman (1:36:51.260)

there's something in the voice that he's not bought.

Michael Malice (1:36:55.260)

There's no question he's gonna take this seriously,

Lex Fridman (1:36:57.260)

which I think is the best you could hope for in a moderator.

Michael Malice (1:37:00.720)

It feels like there's people that might actually

Lex Fridman (1:37:03.100)

take the mainstream media into a place

Michael Malice (1:37:05.740)

that's going to be better in the future.

Lex Fridman (1:37:08.260)

And we need people like him.

Lex Fridman (1:37:09.740)

You mean like Robespierre?

Lex Fridman (1:37:11.160)

What do you mean?

Michael Malice (1:37:12.000)

Like taking the mainstream media to a better future.

Lex Fridman (1:37:14.380)

Like bring out the guillotines.

Michael Malice (1:37:17.980)

See, you put your anarchist hat back on.

Lex Fridman (1:37:21.060)

I don't think Robespierre is much of an anarchist,

Lex Fridman (1:37:22.540)

but yeah, I get what you're saying.

Lex Fridman (1:37:24.220)

You don't think there should be a centralized place for news?

Michael Malice (1:37:26.940)

There isn't now.

Lex Fridman (1:37:27.800)

Well, that's what mainstream media

Michael Malice (1:37:31.720)

is supposed to represent, and it's broken.

Lex Fridman (1:37:33.440)

Well, it's not whatever, what do you call that?

Michael Malice (1:37:36.840)

A place where people traditionally said

Lex Fridman (1:37:39.680)

was the legitimate source of truth.

Lex Fridman (1:37:44.320)

That's what the media was supposed to represent, no?

Lex Fridman (1:37:47.200)

That's their big branding accomplishment.

Lex Fridman (1:37:50.240)

That was never true?

Lex Fridman (1:37:51.840)

Yeah, because here's what happens.

Michael Malice (1:37:53.520)

We remember the Spanish American War,

Lex Fridman (1:37:55.720)

remember the Maine, we have to take Cuba,

Lex Fridman (1:37:58.160)

yellow journalism, William Randolph Hearst, right?

Lex Fridman (1:38:00.840)

Then record scratch, and then we're all objective.

Lex Fridman (1:38:04.200)

Like when did this transition happen according to people?

Lex Fridman (1:38:06.480)

When you were saying that the Kaiser

Lex Fridman (1:38:08.160)

is the worst human being on earth?

Lex Fridman (1:38:10.280)

When you were downplaying Stalin

Lex Fridman (1:38:12.280)

and downplaying Hitler's atrocities?

Lex Fridman (1:38:14.280)

When you were saying we had to be in Vietnam?

Lex Fridman (1:38:16.280)

At what point, WMDs, when did it change?

Lex Fridman (1:38:19.080)

It never changed.

Michael Malice (1:38:19.920)

You just are better con artists at a certain point,

Lex Fridman (1:38:22.360)

and now the mask is dropping.

Michael Malice (1:38:23.620)

Yeah, but don't you think there's, at its best,

Lex Fridman (1:38:27.280)

like investigative journalism can uncover truth

Lex Fridman (1:38:32.320)

in a way that like Reddit, subreddits can't?

Lex Fridman (1:38:39.080)

You know, Reddit, sure, I agree.

Michael Malice (1:38:41.560)

At its best, absolutely, that's not even a dispute.

Lex Fridman (1:38:43.820)

But like, don't you think like fake it until you make it

Lex Fridman (1:38:48.740)

is the right way to do it?

Lex Fridman (1:38:49.880)

Meaning like the.

Lex Fridman (1:38:51.100)

Fake the news?

Lex Fridman (1:38:52.320)

No, no, no, I meant the news saying like,

Michael Malice (1:38:55.800)

we dream of doing, of arriving at the truth

Lex Fridman (1:38:59.960)

and reporting the truth.

Michael Malice (1:39:01.240)

They don't say that.

Lex Fridman (1:39:02.080)

CNN had an advertisement that said this is an apple.

Michael Malice (1:39:04.680)

We only report facts.

Lex Fridman (1:39:06.040)

That's a lie.

Michael Malice (1:39:07.120)

No, that's now, and now it's clear things have changed.

Lex Fridman (1:39:10.920)

They haven't changed.

Michael Malice (1:39:11.800)

You're just more, you're more aware of their chicanery.

Lex Fridman (1:39:15.960)

But, okay, so the.

Lex Fridman (1:39:17.880)

How many people died in Iraq?

Lex Fridman (1:39:19.320)

Because Saddam Hussein was about to launch WMDs.

Lex Fridman (1:39:22.760)

Who had consequences for this?

Lex Fridman (1:39:24.000)

No one.

Michael Malice (1:39:25.400)

This isn't a minor thing.

Lex Fridman (1:39:26.480)

This is lots of dead people.

Michael Malice (1:39:28.760)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:39:30.040)

And also, I mean, dead people, it's horrible,

Lex Fridman (1:39:34.240)

but also the money, which has, like we said,

Lex Fridman (1:39:36.520)

economic effects that.

Michael Malice (1:39:37.680)

Marianne Williamson, I think it was, had the,

Lex Fridman (1:39:39.560)

or Trump, both of them had the great point that goes,

Michael Malice (1:39:41.860)

that's like a trillion dollars.

Lex Fridman (1:39:42.720)

How many schools would that build?

Lex Fridman (1:39:43.640)

How many roads would that build?

Lex Fridman (1:39:44.480)

Even here, why are we building hospitals in Iraq

Lex Fridman (1:39:46.880)

that we destroyed when we could building hospitals here?

Lex Fridman (1:39:49.000)

It makes no sense.

Michael Malice (1:39:49.840)

It's horrifying.

Lex Fridman (1:39:51.760)

So who's responsible for that?

Lex Fridman (1:39:53.200)

Like who?

Lex Fridman (1:39:54.720)

Alex Jones.

Michael Malice (1:39:55.920)

No, I meant for, well, so who's responsible

Lex Fridman (1:40:01.680)

for arriving at the truth of that,

Lex Fridman (1:40:04.560)

of speaking to the money spent on the wars in Iraq?

Lex Fridman (1:40:09.360)

This is one of the great things about social media.

Michael Malice (1:40:11.800)

Twitter, you have faith in Twitter.

Lex Fridman (1:40:13.160)

Not specifically Twitter, but yeah,

Michael Malice (1:40:14.720)

social media's the whole, what anyone could.

Lex Fridman (1:40:16.320)

Here's another great example.

Michael Malice (1:40:18.240)

Before, if you were talking about police brutality

Lex Fridman (1:40:22.160)

or these riots, you would have to perceive it

Michael Malice (1:40:24.880)

in the way it was framed and presented to you.

Lex Fridman (1:40:26.800)

Nicholas Sandman's another example.

Michael Malice (1:40:29.120)

Breonna Taylor, all these things.

Lex Fridman (1:40:30.280)

Well, we don't have footage of her.

Michael Malice (1:40:32.160)

You would have to perceive in the way that it's edited

Lex Fridman (1:40:34.160)

and presented to you by the corporate press.

Michael Malice (1:40:35.920)

Now everyone is a video, has a video camera.

Lex Fridman (1:40:38.300)

Everyone has their perspective.

Lex Fridman (1:40:39.900)

And it's very useful when these incidents happen

Lex Fridman (1:40:42.840)

where you could see the same incident from several angles

Lex Fridman (1:40:45.360)

and you don't need Don Lemon or Chris Wallace

Lex Fridman (1:40:48.000)

to tell me what this means.

Michael Malice (1:40:49.040)

I can see with my own eyes.

Lex Fridman (1:40:50.880)

Yeah, I've been very pleasantly surprised about the power.

Michael Malice (1:40:55.560)

See, the mob, again, gets in the way.

Lex Fridman (1:40:58.280)

They get emotional and they destroy the ability

Michael Malice (1:41:03.520)

for people to reason.

Lex Fridman (1:41:05.040)

But you're right that truth is unobstructed on social media.

Michael Malice (1:41:09.960)

Like if you're careful and patient, you can see the truth.

Lex Fridman (1:41:14.520)

Like for example, data on COVID,

Michael Malice (1:41:16.640)

some of the best sources are doctors.

Lex Fridman (1:41:19.920)

Like if you wanna know the truth about the coronavirus

Lex Fridman (1:41:22.480)

and what's happening is there's follow people on Twitter.

Lex Fridman (1:41:27.400)

There's certain people that are just like sourcing them

Michael Malice (1:41:29.200)

from me versus the CDC and the WHO.

Lex Fridman (1:41:32.040)

It's, that's fast.

Lex Fridman (1:41:33.680)

I mean, well, it's kind of anarchy, right?

Lex Fridman (1:41:36.160)

Yes, it is.

Michael Malice (1:41:37.000)

It's not kind of, it is anarchy, yes.

Lex Fridman (1:41:38.940)

I mean, well, there's some censorship

Lex Fridman (1:41:41.720)

and all that kind of stuff.

Lex Fridman (1:41:42.560)

You have censorship under anarchy

Michael Malice (1:41:43.920)

in the sense that you're talking about.

Lex Fridman (1:41:45.000)

Like people get kicked off of Twitter.

Michael Malice (1:41:47.480)

That's a drawing backwards.

Lex Fridman (1:41:48.320)

How do you kick somebody, okay.

Michael Malice (1:41:49.600)

So, I mean, it's a.

Lex Fridman (1:41:50.920)

Private company.

Michael Malice (1:41:52.360)

Private company.

Lex Fridman (1:41:54.360)

Most people wouldn't say Twitter is working,

Lex Fridman (1:41:56.720)

but that's probably because they take for granted

Lex Fridman (1:41:59.420)

how well it's working and they're just complaining

Michael Malice (1:42:01.320)

about the small part of it that's broken.

Lex Fridman (1:42:03.920)

Yeah.

Michael Malice (1:42:07.840)

Okay, another question about.

Lex Fridman (1:42:09.360)

You feel better?

Michael Malice (1:42:10.240)

No, by the way, I mean, I had a personal gripe

Lex Fridman (1:42:15.960)

with the situation about the, not a personal gripe,

Lex Fridman (1:42:19.940)

but I felt overly emotional about the possibility

Lex Fridman (1:42:25.920)

that there will be some of Donald Trump

Michael Malice (1:42:29.440)

messing with the election process,

Lex Fridman (1:42:31.760)

but you made me feel better.

Michael Malice (1:42:33.040)

Good.

Lex Fridman (1:42:33.880)

Like saying like, if he had a bunch of opportunities

Michael Malice (1:42:36.560)

to do what I would have done if I was a dictator,

Lex Fridman (1:42:42.760)

I would, the first time those riots over George Floyd,

Michael Malice (1:42:47.080)

I would have instituted martial law.

Lex Fridman (1:42:49.880)

Do you know what I remember very vividly?

Michael Malice (1:42:52.080)

Is after 9 11 and everyone was waiting for George Bush

Lex Fridman (1:42:55.160)

to give his speech and he had 98% approved rating.

Lex Fridman (1:42:57.920)

And I remember very vividly,

Lex Fridman (1:42:59.040)

cause if he had said we're suspending the constitution,

Michael Malice (1:43:03.000)

everyone would have cheered for him.

Lex Fridman (1:43:04.140)

Like he couldn't get enough support at that time.

Lex Fridman (1:43:06.400)

And he didn't do it.

Lex Fridman (1:43:07.800)

And I can't say anything really good about George W. Bush.

Michael Malice (1:43:10.720)

I'm not a fan of his to say the least.

Lex Fridman (1:43:12.480)

So I think you and I, and other people who are familiar

Michael Malice (1:43:15.880)

with totalitarian regimes to some extent from our ancestry

Lex Fridman (1:43:19.500)

or whatever, from research should always be the ones

Michael Malice (1:43:22.880)

freaking out and warning,

Lex Fridman (1:43:24.640)

but we should also be aware of we got a ways to go

Michael Malice (1:43:28.980)

before it's Hitler.

Lex Fridman (1:43:30.560)

And thankfully there are a lot of dominoes

Michael Malice (1:43:34.360)

that have to fall into place before Hitler.

Lex Fridman (1:43:36.360)

It's like the game secret Hitler, it's a board game

Michael Malice (1:43:38.400)

before Hitler becomes Hitler.

Lex Fridman (1:43:40.100)

Like it's not, especially in America,

Michael Malice (1:43:43.080)

there's lots of things that have to happen

Lex Fridman (1:43:45.600)

before you really get to that point.

Michael Malice (1:43:47.600)

I mean, FDR was for all intents and purposes a dictator,

Lex Fridman (1:43:50.460)

but even then the worst you could say,

Lex Fridman (1:43:52.400)

and this is not something that you should take lightly

Lex Fridman (1:43:54.580)

was internment of Japanese citizens,

Lex Fridman (1:43:56.540)

but they weren't murdered.

Lex Fridman (1:43:58.040)

They weren't under lock and key in the sense of like in cells.

Lex Fridman (1:44:01.800)

So things could have gotten a lot worse for him.

Lex Fridman (1:44:04.120)

We have to, I mean, Hitler is such a horrible person

Michael Malice (1:44:06.560)

to bring up because.

Lex Fridman (1:44:07.400)

He's Mussolini.

Michael Malice (1:44:08.480)

Yeah, Mussolini is better because Hitler is so close

Lex Fridman (1:44:12.840)

and connected to the atrocities of the Holocaust.

Michael Malice (1:44:15.600)

There's all this stuff that led up to the war

Lex Fridman (1:44:17.400)

and the war itself.

Michael Malice (1:44:18.240)

Say that there was no Holocaust,

Lex Fridman (1:44:20.760)

Hitler would probably be viewed differently.

Michael Malice (1:44:23.440)

Yes, I should think so.

Lex Fridman (1:44:24.680)

Well, I mean, but.

Michael Malice (1:44:26.920)

You think, that's a very controversial stance.

Lex Fridman (1:44:29.020)

You think Hitler would be viewed differently

Lex Fridman (1:44:30.240)

if it wasn't for the Holocaust?

Lex Fridman (1:44:31.620)

Well, I mean, but it's a funny thing that the,

Michael Malice (1:44:38.840)

I would say the death of how many, 40, 50 million.

Lex Fridman (1:44:44.720)

I mean, I don't know how you calculate it.

Michael Malice (1:44:46.920)

It's not seen as bad as the 6 million.

Lex Fridman (1:44:50.920)

Oh yeah, because of Mao and Stalin.

Michael Malice (1:44:52.780)

Yeah, but it's interesting.

Lex Fridman (1:44:56.260)

I'm working on it.

Michael Malice (1:44:57.320)

You're working on it.

Lex Fridman (1:44:58.160)

Yeah, the next book I'm talking about.

Michael Malice (1:44:59.000)

Reminding, well, it's good.

Lex Fridman (1:45:01.040)

I'm glad a good writer is,

Michael Malice (1:45:02.480)

because the world's not reminded.

Lex Fridman (1:45:03.800)

My last book, The New Right,

Michael Malice (1:45:05.080)

I had to deal with something like the Nazis.

Lex Fridman (1:45:06.440)

And one of the points they make is,

Lex Fridman (1:45:07.560)

how come everyone knows about the Holocaust,

Lex Fridman (1:45:09.020)

but no one knows about the Holodomor?

Lex Fridman (1:45:10.640)

And they're right.

Lex Fridman (1:45:11.660)

We should know about this,

Michael Malice (1:45:12.700)

because it is a great example of both

Lex Fridman (1:45:14.640)

how the Western media were depraved,

Lex Fridman (1:45:17.360)

but also what human beings are capable of.

Lex Fridman (1:45:19.680)

And those scars are still,

Michael Malice (1:45:22.320)

many Americans think Russia and Ukraine are the same thing.

Lex Fridman (1:45:25.080)

Oh, Trump's in bed with the Ukrainians,

Michael Malice (1:45:27.100)

Trump's about the Russians,

Lex Fridman (1:45:27.940)

they think it's the same thing.

Michael Malice (1:45:29.440)

For us, it's complete lunacy.

Lex Fridman (1:45:31.720)

But this is the kind of thing where Pol Pot

Michael Malice (1:45:33.760)

is another example,

Lex Fridman (1:45:35.240)

where people have no clue of what has been done

Michael Malice (1:45:38.320)

to their fellow man on the face of this earth,

Lex Fridman (1:45:40.000)

and they should know.

Lex Fridman (1:45:41.420)

How much of that do you lay at the hands of communism?

Lex Fridman (1:45:43.920)

How much are you with like a Jordan Pearson

Michael Malice (1:45:46.480)

who is intricately connecting the atrocities,

Lex Fridman (1:45:51.200)

like you're saying, 1930s Ukraine,

Lex Fridman (1:45:53.880)

where people were starved?

Lex Fridman (1:45:56.200)

I recently, my grandmother recently passed away,

Lex Fridman (1:45:58.400)

and she survived that as a kid.

Lex Fridman (1:46:02.120)

Which is, those people, I mean, they're tough.

Michael Malice (1:46:09.040)

They're tough.

Lex Fridman (1:46:09.880)

Like that whole region is tough,

Michael Malice (1:46:11.960)

because they survived that,

Lex Fridman (1:46:13.280)

and then right after, occupation of Nazis, of Germans.

Lex Fridman (1:46:19.640)

How much do you lay that at communism as an ideology,

Lex Fridman (1:46:24.440)

versus Stalin, the man?

Michael Malice (1:46:27.920)

I think Lenin was building concentration camps

Lex Fridman (1:46:31.040)

while he was around, and slave labor.

Michael Malice (1:46:34.120)

I don't, I think it's clearly both.

Lex Fridman (1:46:36.840)

There are certain variants of communism

Michael Malice (1:46:38.600)

that were far, like Khrushchev and Gorbachev,

Lex Fridman (1:46:42.640)

the reason the Soviet Union fell apart,

Lex Fridman (1:46:44.600)

and this is kind of, I'm gonna spoil the end of the book.

Lex Fridman (1:46:47.000)

There's an amazing book called Revolution 1989,

Michael Malice (1:46:48.920)

it's like the most beautiful book I've ever read,

Lex Fridman (1:46:50.620)

by Viktor Sebastian, he's a Hungarian author.

Lex Fridman (1:46:53.300)

And basically what happens in 1989,

Lex Fridman (1:46:55.320)

Poland has their elections,

Lex Fridman (1:46:56.520)

and then in 1990, they kind of let in

Lex Fridman (1:46:58.600)

the labor people to the government.

Lex Fridman (1:47:00.360)

And people start crossing borders in the Eastern Bloc,

Lex Fridman (1:47:04.480)

and you had Hanukkah from Eastern Germany,

Lex Fridman (1:47:06.260)

and Ceausescu from Romania calling Gorbachev,

Lex Fridman (1:47:09.360)

because those are the two toughest ones,

Michael Malice (1:47:11.080)

by communist standards, they go,

Lex Fridman (1:47:13.040)

they're just escaping, we're gonna lose everything.

Michael Malice (1:47:16.280)

You gotta send in the tanks, like you did in Hungary,

Lex Fridman (1:47:18.040)

like you did in Czechoslovakia in 68.

Lex Fridman (1:47:20.540)

And Gorbachev goes, I'm not sending the tanks.

Lex Fridman (1:47:22.280)

And they go, dude, if you don't send in the tanks,

Michael Malice (1:47:24.960)

it's all done, and he goes, nope, I'm not that kind of guy.

Lex Fridman (1:47:28.360)

And they were right, Ceausescu was personally shot

Michael Malice (1:47:31.920)

with his wife up against the wall,

Lex Fridman (1:47:33.520)

Hanukkah, I forget what happened to him,

Lex Fridman (1:47:35.240)

but they all self liberated.

Lex Fridman (1:47:37.460)

My friend who was born in Czechoslovakia,

Michael Malice (1:47:39.840)

his mom was pregnant under communism,

Lex Fridman (1:47:42.220)

and she never even imagined he'd be free,

Lex Fridman (1:47:43.840)

and he was born under free.

Lex Fridman (1:47:45.560)

And they were all looking around,

Michael Malice (1:47:46.960)

all these countries that self liberated,

Lex Fridman (1:47:48.720)

because they're like, this is a trick, right?

Michael Malice (1:47:50.440)

They're trying to figure out who's like not good,

Lex Fridman (1:47:52.520)

so that they can arrest us on mass, and they didn't.

Lex Fridman (1:47:54.840)

So even within communism,

Lex Fridman (1:47:58.880)

there are bad guys and better guys.

Lex Fridman (1:48:02.480)

But we talked about anarchy, we talked about democracy.

Lex Fridman (1:48:06.080)

Do you see, like there's democratic socialism

Michael Malice (1:48:09.240)

conversations going on in the popular culture,

Lex Fridman (1:48:13.400)

socialism is seen as like evil, or for some people, great?

Michael Malice (1:48:18.580)

Sure.

Lex Fridman (1:48:19.840)

What are your thoughts about it as in a political ideology?

Michael Malice (1:48:24.160)

Evil.

Lex Fridman (1:48:25.360)

So you're on the evil side?

Michael Malice (1:48:26.480)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:48:27.320)

Fundamentally?

Michael Malice (1:48:28.140)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:48:28.980)

What is it, you know, what makes it evil?

Lex Fridman (1:48:34.880)

What's like structurally, if you were to try to analyze?

Lex Fridman (1:48:38.040)

Sure, I'd say three ways.

Michael Malice (1:48:39.920)

Morally, no person has the right

Lex Fridman (1:48:41.720)

to tell another person how to live their life.

Michael Malice (1:48:44.920)

Economically, it's not possible

Lex Fridman (1:48:46.520)

to make calculations under socialism.

Michael Malice (1:48:48.440)

It's only the prices that are information that tells me,

Lex Fridman (1:48:51.780)

oh, this is, we need to produce more of this,

Michael Malice (1:48:53.380)

we need to produce less of this.

Lex Fridman (1:48:54.880)

Without prices being able to adjust

Lex Fridman (1:48:56.480)

and give information to producers and consumers,

Lex Fridman (1:48:59.940)

you have no way of being able to produce

Michael Malice (1:49:02.040)

effectively or efficiently.

Lex Fridman (1:49:03.520)

And also it is, it turns people against each other.

Michael Malice (1:49:08.120)

When you force people to interact,

Lex Fridman (1:49:09.920)

when you force them into relationships,

Michael Malice (1:49:11.320)

when you force them into jobs,

Lex Fridman (1:49:13.040)

and you don't give them any choice,

Michael Malice (1:49:14.380)

when there's a monopoly, the consequence of monopoly,

Lex Fridman (1:49:17.120)

everyone's familiar with ostensibly under capitalism,

Lex Fridman (1:49:19.760)

but somehow when it's a government monopoly,

Lex Fridman (1:49:21.520)

all those economic principles don't work,

Michael Malice (1:49:23.000)

it doesn't make any sense.

Lex Fridman (1:49:24.280)

But there's force in democracy too,

Michael Malice (1:49:26.180)

it's just you're saying there's a bit more force

Lex Fridman (1:49:29.040)

in socialism.

Lex Fridman (1:49:32.240)

But that's interesting that you say

Lex Fridman (1:49:33.580)

that there's not enough information.

Michael Malice (1:49:34.880)

I mean, that's ultimately,

Lex Fridman (1:49:36.680)

you need to have really good data

Michael Malice (1:49:40.360)

to achieve the goals of the system,

Lex Fridman (1:49:43.080)

even if there's no corruption.

Michael Malice (1:49:45.680)

You just need to have the information.

Lex Fridman (1:49:47.240)

Which you can't.

Lex Fridman (1:49:48.200)

And capitalism provides you

Lex Fridman (1:49:49.840)

a really strong source of real time information.

Lex Fridman (1:49:58.560)

And if capitalism at its best and cleanest,

Lex Fridman (1:50:02.640)

which is perfect information, is available,

Michael Malice (1:50:05.560)

there's no manipulation of information.

Lex Fridman (1:50:08.360)

That's one of the problems, okay.

Michael Malice (1:50:11.760)

Can we talk about some candidates,

Lex Fridman (1:50:13.760)

the ones we got and possible alternatives?

Lex Fridman (1:50:17.200)

So one question I have is, why do we have,

Lex Fridman (1:50:21.920)

within this system, why do we have the candidates we have?

Michael Malice (1:50:27.800)

It seems, maybe you can correct me,

Lex Fridman (1:50:30.960)

highly unsatisfactory.

Lex Fridman (1:50:35.640)

Is anyone actually excited about our current candidates?

Lex Fridman (1:50:39.520)

I'm kind of excited,

Michael Malice (1:50:41.040)

because no matter who wins the election,

Lex Fridman (1:50:43.200)

it's gonna be hilarious.

Lex Fridman (1:50:44.420)

So that is something that I'm excited about.

Lex Fridman (1:50:46.240)

From a humor perspective.

Lex Fridman (1:50:48.520)

Is that what the whole system is?

Lex Fridman (1:50:50.040)

So that's one theory of the case,

Michael Malice (1:50:52.120)

is the entire thing is optimized for viewership.

Lex Fridman (1:50:55.960)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:50:56.800)

And excitement by definitions

Lex Fridman (1:50:59.240)

of like the reality show kind of excitement.

Michael Malice (1:51:01.540)

I think it is,

Lex Fridman (1:51:04.320)

if you look at what happened with Brett Kavanaugh,

Michael Malice (1:51:06.820)

this is not a career that would draw people

Lex Fridman (1:51:11.680)

who are, you might say, quality.

Michael Malice (1:51:14.600)

Because no matter who they are,

Lex Fridman (1:51:15.960)

there would be a huge incentive from the other team

Michael Malice (1:51:18.800)

to denigrate them and humiliate them

Lex Fridman (1:51:20.960)

in the worst possible ways.

Michael Malice (1:51:21.980)

Because as the two teams lose their legitimacy

Lex Fridman (1:51:25.200)

among Gen Pop, it's gonna get harder and harder

Michael Malice (1:51:27.880)

for them to maintain any kind of claims to authority,

Lex Fridman (1:51:30.640)

which is something I like,

Lex Fridman (1:51:32.080)

but which does kind of play out

Lex Fridman (1:51:33.600)

in certain nefarious ways.

Lex Fridman (1:51:36.080)

So people, the best of the best,

Lex Fridman (1:51:37.980)

are not gonna wanna be politicians.

Michael Malice (1:51:40.100)

Yeah, because I could have a job,

Lex Fridman (1:51:42.520)

or have a job interview and I'm running Yahoo or whatever,

Michael Malice (1:51:45.720)

or I could, for 18 months, have to eat, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:51:49.200)

corn dogs looking like I'm going down on someone

Lex Fridman (1:51:51.280)

and shake hands and have all this,

Lex Fridman (1:51:53.600)

my family and on social media daily

Lex Fridman (1:51:56.440)

called the worst things, for what?

Lex Fridman (1:51:58.880)

And then I'm still not guaranteed the position.

Lex Fridman (1:52:02.020)

But the flip side of that, like from my perspective,

Lex Fridman (1:52:05.520)

is the competition is weak.

Michael Malice (1:52:08.240)

Meaning, like, you need a minimum amount of eloquence,

Lex Fridman (1:52:13.240)

eloquence, clearly, that I don't,

Michael Malice (1:52:16.120)

the bar which I did not pass.

Lex Fridman (1:52:17.880)

I don't think either of them would be considered

Michael Malice (1:52:19.560)

particularly eloquent, Biden or Trump.

Lex Fridman (1:52:21.260)

No, I know, but that's what I'm saying.

Michael Malice (1:52:22.800)

The competition, like if you were,

Lex Fridman (1:52:26.500)

wanted to become a politician,

Michael Malice (1:52:28.200)

if you wanted to run for president,

Lex Fridman (1:52:30.300)

the opportunity is there.

Michael Malice (1:52:32.120)

Like if you were at all competent.

Lex Fridman (1:52:33.800)

Like if you had, so like Andrew Yang is an example

Michael Malice (1:52:36.320)

of somebody who has a bunch of ideas,

Lex Fridman (1:52:37.840)

is somewhat eloquent, like young, energetic.

Michael Malice (1:52:43.760)

It feels like there should be thousands of Andrew Yangs,

Lex Fridman (1:52:47.160)

like that would enter the domain.

Michael Malice (1:52:49.280)

He went nowhere.

Lex Fridman (1:52:51.440)

Well, I wouldn't say he went nowhere.

Michael Malice (1:52:54.200)

He generated quite a bit of excitement.

Lex Fridman (1:52:55.760)

He just didn't go very far, that's, okay.

Michael Malice (1:52:59.820)

You don't have to run for president

Lex Fridman (1:53:01.040)

to generate excitement with your ideas.

Michael Malice (1:53:02.360)

You could be a podcast host, I'm not even joking.

Lex Fridman (1:53:04.240)

That's right, that's right, that's right.

Lex Fridman (1:53:07.780)

And he's both, Andrew Yang.

Lex Fridman (1:53:09.920)

Oh, he's a podcast?

Michael Malice (1:53:10.840)

Yeah, he has a podcast called Yang Speaks.

Lex Fridman (1:53:13.560)

Oh, okay, cool.

Michael Malice (1:53:19.720)

Oh, wow, the music of the way you said, yeah, cool.

Lex Fridman (1:53:24.500)

It's the way my mom talks to me

Michael Malice (1:53:25.880)

when I tell her something exciting going on in my life.

Lex Fridman (1:53:31.640)

Oh, that's nice, honey.

Michael Malice (1:53:32.780)

Oh, you made a robot, that's cool.

Lex Fridman (1:53:35.880)

A mixed coffee?

Lex Fridman (1:53:36.720)

Oh, you're still single, though, aren't you?

Lex Fridman (1:53:38.800)

I wonder why, I wonder why.

Lex Fridman (1:53:43.120)

Make yourself a robot wife?

Lex Fridman (1:53:44.800)

Give me some robot grandchildren.

Michael Malice (1:53:49.160)

Okay, but first of all, okay,

Lex Fridman (1:53:53.640)

let me ask you about Andrew Yang

Michael Malice (1:53:55.120)

because he represents fresh energy.

Lex Fridman (1:53:58.960)

You don't find him fresh or energetic, you know?

Michael Malice (1:54:02.180)

Like, is there any candidate you wish was in the mix

Lex Fridman (1:54:07.220)

that was in the mix you wish was

Lex Fridman (1:54:09.360)

one of the last two remaining?

Lex Fridman (1:54:11.260)

Yeah, people like Marianne Williamson, I thought was great.

Michael Malice (1:54:14.840)

Tulsi, I thought was great.

Lex Fridman (1:54:16.520)

Amy Klobuchar got a bad rap.

Michael Malice (1:54:18.780)

I think she held her own.

Lex Fridman (1:54:21.260)

Smart, she wasn't particularly funny, that's okay.

Michael Malice (1:54:24.080)

I think she was nonthreatening to a lot of people.

Lex Fridman (1:54:26.240)

What did you like about them?

Michael Malice (1:54:28.160)

I guess I just named all women, that's interesting.

Lex Fridman (1:54:29.640)

It wasn't even intentional.

Michael Malice (1:54:31.540)

Tulsi, I liked that she was aggressive,

Lex Fridman (1:54:33.480)

has a good resume and is not staying the course

Michael Malice (1:54:38.520)

for the establishment.

Lex Fridman (1:54:39.760)

Marianne Williamson, I like because she comes from a place,

Michael Malice (1:54:42.720)

from what it seems, of genuine compassion.

Lex Fridman (1:54:45.040)

Maybe she's a sociopath, I don't know.

Michael Malice (1:54:47.160)

I read her book and it actually affected me profoundly

Lex Fridman (1:54:50.600)

because it's very rare when you read a book

Lex Fridman (1:54:53.280)

and there's even that one idea that blows your mind

Lex Fridman (1:54:55.500)

and that you kind of think about all the time.

Lex Fridman (1:54:56.840)

And there was one such idea in her book

Lex Fridman (1:54:59.000)

about she was teaching something called A Course

Michael Malice (1:55:01.560)

in Miracles in Hollywood.

Lex Fridman (1:55:02.560)

I think she still teaches it.

Lex Fridman (1:55:04.120)

And this was during the 80s, the height of the AIDS crisis.

Lex Fridman (1:55:07.540)

And all these young men in the prime of their life

Michael Malice (1:55:09.840)

were dropping like flies.

Lex Fridman (1:55:11.760)

And she's trying to give them hope.

Michael Malice (1:55:13.180)

Well, good luck, they're dying, no one cares.

Lex Fridman (1:55:16.240)

And they're like, you can't tell us

Michael Malice (1:55:17.760)

that they're gonna cure this, that's a lie.

Lex Fridman (1:55:21.480)

And she goes, what if I told you they're not gonna cure it?

Lex Fridman (1:55:25.420)

What if I told you it's gonna be to like diabetes?

Lex Fridman (1:55:28.180)

They cut off your foot and you're gonna go blind.

Lex Fridman (1:55:30.560)

Would that be something that you can hope for?

Lex Fridman (1:55:33.200)

And when you put it like that, it's like, yeah.

Michael Malice (1:55:34.920)

Like if you're talking to someone like a homeless junkie

Lex Fridman (1:55:36.760)

and you're like, you could be a doctor,

Michael Malice (1:55:38.080)

you're a lawyer or a lawyer, like cool story.

Lex Fridman (1:55:39.840)

Like you could have a studio apartment

Michael Malice (1:55:43.400)

with a terrible roommate and a shitty job.

Lex Fridman (1:55:45.880)

But when you're on the street,

Michael Malice (1:55:48.400)

cooking breakfast in a teaspoon and you hear that,

Lex Fridman (1:55:51.360)

you're like, wait, would that really be so bad?

Lex Fridman (1:55:53.360)

Is that really so much worse than this?

Lex Fridman (1:55:54.800)

No, and it becomes something.

Lex Fridman (1:55:56.240)

So when she put it in those terms, I'm like, wow,

Lex Fridman (1:55:59.040)

this woman that really did a number on me

Michael Malice (1:56:01.700)

in terms of teaching people how to be hopeful.

Lex Fridman (1:56:04.760)

Small steps, I guess.

Lex Fridman (1:56:05.920)

But it's also, then it becomes less of I need a miracle

Lex Fridman (1:56:09.120)

to be like, oh, this is really manageable.

Michael Malice (1:56:11.520)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:56:12.360)

And it's absurd to think it's impossible.

Lex Fridman (1:56:15.000)

What about what's your take on Unity 2020

Lex Fridman (1:56:17.920)

that Brett Weinstein pushed forward?

Michael Malice (1:56:22.920)

It was DOA, he couldn't even stand up to Twitter.

Lex Fridman (1:56:26.360)

Dead on arrival.

Michael Malice (1:56:27.200)

Dead on arrival.

Lex Fridman (1:56:28.040)

He couldn't even stand up to Twitter, let alone,

Michael Malice (1:56:29.520)

or to Facebook, they got blocked,

Lex Fridman (1:56:31.040)

let alone to Facebook.

Michael Malice (1:56:31.880)

It was not hugely problematic, by the way,

Lex Fridman (1:56:33.660)

that Twitter would block that.

Michael Malice (1:56:35.640)

Not at all.

Lex Fridman (1:56:36.800)

I don't know why they blocked it,

Lex Fridman (1:56:37.900)

but I believe, I don't know what problematic means.

Lex Fridman (1:56:40.440)

That's a word that does a lot of work

Michael Malice (1:56:42.560)

that people wanted to do conceptually.

Lex Fridman (1:56:45.600)

The idea that Unity is taking the rejects from each party

Lex Fridman (1:56:49.680)

and we're gonna have something that no one likes

Lex Fridman (1:56:52.000)

and therefore it's gonna be a compromise is absurd.

Michael Malice (1:56:54.480)

The last time we had this kind of Unity ticket

Lex Fridman (1:56:56.720)

was the Civil War, where you had Andrew Johnson

Michael Malice (1:56:59.440)

from the Democrats and Lincoln from the Republicans.

Lex Fridman (1:57:01.640)

This was not something that ended well,

Michael Malice (1:57:03.720)

particularly nicely, for both halves of the country.

Lex Fridman (1:57:05.960)

So that's the way you see it is,

Michael Malice (1:57:08.320)

like the way I saw it,

Lex Fridman (1:57:09.720)

I guess I haven't looked carefully at it.

Michael Malice (1:57:11.520)

I haven't either, to be fair.

Lex Fridman (1:57:12.560)

Yeah.

Michael Malice (1:57:13.600)

The way I saw it is emphasizing centrists, which is.

Lex Fridman (1:57:17.120)

How is Tulsi a centrist?

Lex Fridman (1:57:19.200)

Tulsi was involved?

Lex Fridman (1:57:20.040)

Yes, he's trying to push Tulsi

Michael Malice (1:57:21.440)

on like Jesse Ventura or something.

Lex Fridman (1:57:23.280)

Oh.

Michael Malice (1:57:24.280)

So, okay, I don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:57:26.360)

I don't know the specifics.

Michael Malice (1:57:27.200)

As a scientist, you also know centrism

Lex Fridman (1:57:28.880)

is not a coherent term in politics.

Lex Fridman (1:57:30.560)

But see, now you're like, what is it?

Lex Fridman (1:57:34.320)

Pleading to authority and my ego.

Michael Malice (1:57:37.600)

No, no, I'm pleading to how you approach data.

Lex Fridman (1:57:40.240)

If someone is saying the mean is accurate,

Michael Malice (1:57:42.680)

that only mean, I mean, the mean could be anywhere.

Lex Fridman (1:57:45.040)

It's a function of what's around it.

Michael Malice (1:57:46.200)

That mean is true.

Lex Fridman (1:57:47.080)

I don't even know what centrists is supposed to mean,

Lex Fridman (1:57:49.680)

but what it means to me, there's no idea, a centrist.

Lex Fridman (1:57:55.160)

There's more of a center right or center left.

Michael Malice (1:57:58.600)

To me, what that means is somebody

Lex Fridman (1:58:00.600)

who is a liberal or a conservative,

Lex Fridman (1:58:04.240)

but is open minded and empathetic to the other side.

Lex Fridman (1:58:13.200)

Joe Biden had the crime bill.

Michael Malice (1:58:15.600)

Joe Biden voted for Republican Supreme Court justices.

Lex Fridman (1:58:18.360)

Joe Biden voted for a balanced budget.

Michael Malice (1:58:19.920)

Joe Biden voted for Bush's war.

Lex Fridman (1:58:21.760)

And I'm sure probably I haven't looked this up,

Michael Malice (1:58:23.120)

the Patriot Act.

Lex Fridman (1:58:23.960)

Joe, if you want a centrist, you have Joe Biden.

Michael Malice (1:58:26.040)

Yeah, okay.

Lex Fridman (1:58:26.880)

He's worked very well with Republicans.

Michael Malice (1:58:28.400)

That argument could be made.

Lex Fridman (1:58:29.360)

Of course, everybody will always resist that argument.

Michael Malice (1:58:33.440)

It's indeniable.

Lex Fridman (1:58:34.280)

In fact, during the campaign,

Michael Malice (1:58:35.920)

some activists started yelling at him at a town hall.

Lex Fridman (1:58:40.840)

Not yelling, just saying, hey, we need open borders.

Michael Malice (1:58:43.560)

Joe Biden says, I'm not for open borders.

Lex Fridman (1:58:45.520)

Go vote for Trump and literally turn his back on the man.

Lex Fridman (1:58:48.840)

And this is during the primaries

Lex Fridman (1:58:50.200)

where it would behoove you to try to appeal to the base.

Lex Fridman (1:58:53.960)

And of course, you can probably also make the argument

Lex Fridman (1:58:55.840)

that Donald Trump is center right, if not center left.

Michael Malice (1:58:59.240)

Well, I mean, he's very unique as a personality.

Lex Fridman (1:59:04.200)

But if you look at his record,

Lex Fridman (1:59:05.480)

and first of all, his rhetoric,

Lex Fridman (1:59:06.680)

you can say is not centrist at all.

Lex Fridman (1:59:08.480)

But in terms of how he governs,

Lex Fridman (1:59:10.480)

the budgeting, I mean, has been very moderate.

Michael Malice (1:59:13.480)

It certainly hasn't been like draconian budget cuts.

Lex Fridman (1:59:16.080)

The Supreme Court, you could say, okay, he's hard right.

Michael Malice (1:59:18.320)

Immigration, you could say in certain capacities,

Lex Fridman (1:59:20.280)

he's hard right.

Lex Fridman (1:59:21.160)

But in terms of pro life, what has he done there?

Lex Fridman (1:59:24.520)

In terms of, so in many other aspects,

Michael Malice (1:59:27.440)

he's been very much this kind of me too Republican.

Lex Fridman (1:59:30.720)

But certainly the rhetoric,

Michael Malice (1:59:31.560)

it's very hard to make him the case that he's a centrist.

Lex Fridman (1:59:33.720)

So you don't like,

Lex Fridman (1:59:35.160)

is there any other idea you find compelling?

Lex Fridman (1:59:37.840)

What I like about UND 2020 is it's an idea

Michael Malice (1:59:41.720)

for a different way, for like a different party,

Lex Fridman (1:59:46.200)

a different path forward.

Lex Fridman (1:59:47.640)

So ideas, just like anarchy is an interesting idea

Lex Fridman (1:59:51.680)

that leads to discourse, that leads to.

Michael Malice (1:59:53.520)

I don't think it's interesting at all.

Lex Fridman (1:59:54.600)

And here's why I don't think it's interesting.

Michael Malice (1:59:56.560)

Sweden has eight parties in its parliament.

Lex Fridman (1:59:59.920)

Iceland, population is like 150,000.

Lex Fridman (20:01.840)

and they form groups of ideologies

Lex Fridman (20:05.600)

and they start fighting each other in the internet

Michael Malice (20:07.560)

where the result is it doesn't feel like

Lex Fridman (20:12.440)

the common humanities highlighted.

Michael Malice (20:14.600)

It doesn't feel like that's a path of progress.

Lex Fridman (20:19.360)

Now, like when I say cohesive,

Michael Malice (20:21.400)

I don't mean like everybody has to be enforcing equality,

Lex Fridman (20:25.840)

all those kinds of ideas.

Michael Malice (20:27.240)

I just mean like not being so divisive.

Lex Fridman (20:31.920)

So it's going back to the original question of like,

Lex Fridman (20:34.440)

how do we put more love out in the world than the internet?

Lex Fridman (20:37.440)

I want divisiveness.

Lex Fridman (20:39.780)

Oh, you see, you think divisiveness is that?

Lex Fridman (20:41.120)

That's the goal.

Michael Malice (20:41.960)

That's very interesting.

Lex Fridman (20:42.780)

It's the goal.

Lex Fridman (20:43.620)

So you started this conversation

Lex Fridman (20:44.920)

where you're talking about you have love

Michael Malice (20:46.100)

for that small group.

Lex Fridman (20:47.440)

I think we both would agree to have a bigger group

Michael Malice (20:50.240)

would be better,

Lex Fridman (20:51.080)

especially if that love comes from a sincere place.

Michael Malice (20:53.560)

I think our country,

Lex Fridman (20:56.400)

I wrote an article about this four years ago

Michael Malice (20:57.680)

that it's time to disunite the states and to secede.

Lex Fridman (21:00.900)

This country has been held together

Michael Malice (21:02.280)

with at least two separate cultures

Lex Fridman (21:04.160)

with dumb text and string for over 20 years.

Michael Malice (21:06.800)

There's an enormous amount of contempt

Lex Fridman (21:08.800)

from one group toward another.

Michael Malice (21:10.800)

This contempt comes from a sincere place.

Lex Fridman (21:12.880)

They do not share each other's values.

Michael Malice (21:14.900)

There's absolutely no reason,

Lex Fridman (21:16.680)

just like any unhealthy relationship

Lex Fridman (21:18.360)

where you can't say, you know what?

Lex Fridman (21:19.640)

It's not working out.

Michael Malice (21:20.960)

I want to go my own way and live my happiness.

Lex Fridman (21:24.400)

And I genuinely want you to go your way,

Michael Malice (21:26.440)

live your happiness.

Lex Fridman (21:27.360)

If I'm wrong, prove me wrong.

Michael Malice (21:28.800)

I'll learn from you and take lessons and vice versa.

Lex Fridman (21:31.860)

But the fact that we all have to be

Michael Malice (21:33.320)

in the same house together is not coherent.

Lex Fridman (21:35.680)

And that's not love.

Michael Malice (21:36.500)

That is the path towards friction and tension and conflict.

Lex Fridman (21:40.700)

Do you think there's concrete groups?

Lex Fridman (21:43.960)

Like is it as simple as the two groups of blue and red?

Lex Fridman (21:47.040)

No, it's also very fluid

Michael Malice (21:49.920)

because you and I are allied as Jewish people,

Lex Fridman (21:53.560)

as Russians, as males, as podcasters.

Michael Malice (21:57.040)

You're an academic, I'm not.

Lex Fridman (21:58.560)

So we're different, but we each are a Venn diagram,

Michael Malice (22:02.800)

even within ourselves.

Lex Fridman (22:04.440)

And I can talk to you about politics

Lex Fridman (22:07.000)

and then we can talk about Russia stuff.

Lex Fridman (22:08.640)

And then you could talk about your work,

Michael Malice (22:10.840)

which I don't know anything about.

Lex Fridman (22:12.100)

So that'd be where you're way up here and a way down here.

Lex Fridman (22:14.400)

So there's lots, every relationship

Lex Fridman (22:16.280)

with just between individuals, it's very dynamic.

Lex Fridman (22:18.920)

So how do we succeed?

Lex Fridman (22:20.640)

Like how do we form individual states

Lex Fridman (22:22.640)

where there's a little bit more cohesion?

Lex Fridman (22:25.900)

Sure, and voluntary cohesion.

Lex Fridman (22:27.720)

So the first step is to eliminate

Lex Fridman (22:31.600)

and the concept of political authority as legitimate

Lex Fridman (22:35.360)

and to denigrate and humiliate those

Lex Fridman (22:38.200)

who would put themselves in a position

Michael Malice (22:40.800)

in which they are there to tell you how to live your life

Lex Fridman (22:44.200)

from any semblance of validity.

Lex Fridman (22:46.600)

And that's starting to happen.

Lex Fridman (22:48.440)

If you look at what they had with the lockdowns,

Michael Malice (22:50.680)

Cuomo and de Blasio, New York,

Lex Fridman (22:53.320)

I was tired a couple of weeks ago.

Lex Fridman (22:56.000)

And I said to my friend, oh, just click, maybe I have COVID.

Lex Fridman (22:58.440)

And he goes, it's not possible, like what do you mean?

Lex Fridman (23:00.640)

And he goes, we haven't had any deaths in like two months.

Lex Fridman (23:04.780)

And there's only like 100 cases a day for like two months.

Lex Fridman (23:08.080)

And I go, you're exaggerating

Lex Fridman (23:09.300)

because everything was still closed.

Lex Fridman (23:11.040)

And I looked at the numbers and he wasn't exaggerating.

Lex Fridman (23:13.900)

And there's no greater American dream to me

Michael Malice (23:16.880)

than an immigrant family comes to the states,

Lex Fridman (23:19.920)

forms their own little business.

Michael Malice (23:21.820)

Maybe mom's a good cook, it's a restaurant,

Lex Fridman (23:23.420)

dry cleaner, fruit stand.

Lex Fridman (23:25.260)

And those people aren't gonna have a lot of money.

Lex Fridman (23:27.980)

Those are the first ones who lost their companies

Michael Malice (23:30.320)

because of these lockdowns.

Lex Fridman (23:33.600)

Cuomo, who's the governor of New York,

Michael Malice (23:35.160)

opened up the gyms, he said, you're clear to open up.

Lex Fridman (23:38.080)

De Blasio said, and we don't have enough inspectors,

Michael Malice (23:40.340)

you're gonna have to wait another couple of weeks.

Lex Fridman (23:43.080)

To regard that as anything other than literally criminal

Michael Malice (23:45.880)

is something that I am having a hard and harder time

Lex Fridman (23:49.460)

wrapping my head around.

Michael Malice (23:51.120)

You said, I mean, that's something

Lex Fridman (23:52.600)

I'm deeply worried about as well,

Michael Malice (23:54.280)

which is like thousands, it's actually millions

Lex Fridman (23:58.380)

of dreams being crushed, that American dream

Michael Malice (24:01.280)

of starting a business, of running a business.

Lex Fridman (24:03.720)

What about all the young people who you and I

Michael Malice (24:06.240)

have in our audiences who are socially isolated at best,

Lex Fridman (24:10.080)

and now they can't leave their homes?

Michael Malice (24:12.840)

Isolation and ostracism are things

Lex Fridman (24:15.100)

that are very well studied in psychology.

Michael Malice (24:17.240)

These have extreme consequences.

Lex Fridman (24:19.320)

I read a book called Ostracism, and this wasn't scientific,

Lex Fridman (24:22.640)

but basically the author was a psychiatrist,

Lex Fridman (24:24.400)

psychologist, whatever, and he had one of his colleagues,

Michael Malice (24:26.880)

they did an experiment, let's for a week,

Lex Fridman (24:29.080)

you ostracize me completely.

Michael Malice (24:30.600)

We know it's an, and he goes, even knowing

Lex Fridman (24:33.040)

it's the experiment, the fact that he wouldn't

Michael Malice (24:34.680)

make eye contact with me and the fact that he ignored me

Lex Fridman (24:37.040)

had an extreme emotional impact on me,

Michael Malice (24:40.880)

knowing full well this is purely for experimental purposes.

Lex Fridman (24:44.020)

Now you multiply that by all these, the suicide,

Michael Malice (24:46.360)

the number of kids who were thinking about suicide

Lex Fridman (24:48.000)

was through the roof during all this.

Lex Fridman (24:50.160)

And my point is, until these people,

Lex Fridman (24:53.300)

it's gonna, I would predict like 2024,

Michael Malice (24:55.800)

that's where we're gonna have to start having conversations

Lex Fridman (24:57.840)

about what personal consequences have to be done

Michael Malice (25:00.140)

for these people, because until then,

Lex Fridman (25:01.720)

they're gonna do the same thing.

Lex Fridman (25:03.400)

So you think there's going to be society wide consequences

Lex Fridman (25:06.120)

of this that we're gonna see, like ripple effects,

Lex Fridman (25:08.800)

because of the social isolation?

Lex Fridman (25:10.440)

I know, I mean, we also need to talk about consequences

Michael Malice (25:13.280)

for Cuomo and de Blasio, because if politicians

Lex Fridman (25:16.440)

respond to incentives, and the incentives are there

Michael Malice (25:18.820)

for them to be extremely conservative,

Lex Fridman (25:20.800)

because if you have to choose, as Cuomo said

Michael Malice (25:22.560)

in a press conference, between a thousand people dying

Lex Fridman (25:25.160)

and a thousand people losing their business,

Michael Malice (25:26.480)

it's not a hard choice, and he's right.

Lex Fridman (25:28.360)

But at a certain point, it's like, all right,

Michael Malice (25:30.860)

you're losing both, you're making these decisions

Lex Fridman (25:35.120)

and not having consequences for it,

Lex Fridman (25:36.900)

and you're gonna do it again the next time,

Lex Fridman (25:38.740)

so we need to make sure you're a little scared.

Lex Fridman (25:41.200)

And I don't know what that would mean.

Lex Fridman (25:42.880)

But you're laying this problem, this incompetence.

Michael Malice (25:48.920)

I don't think it's incompetence,

Lex Fridman (25:50.080)

I think it's very competent.

Michael Malice (25:51.720)

I think their job is to be able, yes.

Lex Fridman (25:54.600)

But you're laying it not at the hands of the individuals,

Lex Fridman (25:59.000)

but the structure of government.

Lex Fridman (26:01.400)

It's both, yes.

Lex Fridman (26:03.360)

How would we deal with it better

Lex Fridman (26:05.760)

without centralized control?

Michael Malice (26:07.980)

Well, we didn't really have centralized control,

Lex Fridman (26:09.440)

because every country and every state

Michael Malice (26:11.160)

handled it in a different mechanism.

Lex Fridman (26:12.840)

But a city has centralized control, right?

Michael Malice (26:16.240)

No, that's not true.

Lex Fridman (26:17.080)

So Cuomo and de Blasio, they had a lot of disagreements

Michael Malice (26:19.400)

over this over the months, and this was actually

Lex Fridman (26:21.200)

a source of great interest and tension.

Michael Malice (26:23.520)

De Blasio wanted, at one point, was talking about

Lex Fridman (26:26.160)

quarantining people in their homes.

Michael Malice (26:27.840)

Cuomo was like, you're crazy.

Lex Fridman (26:29.920)

Same thing with the schools, same thing with the gyms,

Lex Fridman (26:33.040)

and there were other such examples.

Lex Fridman (26:35.840)

But the point being, this was an emergency.

Michael Malice (26:38.240)

World War I, I talked about this on Tim Poole's show,

Lex Fridman (26:41.920)

was very dangerous, because it gave a lot of evil people

Michael Malice (26:45.680)

some very useful information about what the country

Lex Fridman (26:48.160)

put up with and what they can get away with under wartime.

Lex Fridman (26:51.160)

And this set the model for things like the New Deal

Lex Fridman (26:53.680)

and the other things of that nature.

Michael Malice (26:55.880)

It is undeniable, you're a scientist,

Lex Fridman (26:57.480)

so you understand this perfectly well,

Michael Malice (27:00.240)

that this lockdown gave some very nefarious people

Lex Fridman (27:04.080)

some very valid data about how much people

Michael Malice (27:07.440)

were put up with under pressures from the state.

Lex Fridman (27:13.320)

So fundamentally, what is the problem with the state?

Michael Malice (27:16.120)

Its existence.

Lex Fridman (27:17.240)

Okay, well, but to play angel's advocate again,

Michael Malice (27:22.240)

angel's advocate again, you know,

Lex Fridman (27:25.120)

government is the people.

Lex Fridman (27:28.200)

Come on, do you really think this?

Lex Fridman (27:31.880)

As best I think as possible to have representation.

Lex Fridman (27:35.560)

Can you imagine if you have an attorney?

Lex Fridman (27:37.200)

You're like, oh, you can't have the attorney you want.

Michael Malice (27:38.760)

You're gonna have this guy who you absolutely hate

Lex Fridman (27:40.240)

who you share no values with, why?

Michael Malice (27:42.320)

Because he drives, I mean, leaders, political leaders,

Lex Fridman (27:45.280)

and political representation drive the discourse.

Michael Malice (27:48.240)

Like the majority of people voted for him or whatever,

Lex Fridman (27:53.000)

however you define that.

Lex Fridman (27:55.040)

And now we get to have a discussion,

Lex Fridman (27:58.560)

well, was this the right choice?

Lex Fridman (28:01.120)

And then we get to make that choice again

Lex Fridman (28:02.720)

in four years and so on.

Michael Malice (28:04.080)

First of all, the fact that I have to be under the thumb

Lex Fridman (28:06.640)

of somebody for four years makes no sense.

Michael Malice (28:09.160)

There's no other relationship that's like this,

Lex Fridman (28:10.680)

including a marriage.

Michael Malice (28:12.200)

You can leave any other relationship at any time,

Lex Fridman (28:14.440)

number one.

Michael Malice (28:15.320)

Number two is.

Lex Fridman (28:16.160)

You could always impeach.

Michael Malice (28:17.480)

Well, they did that.

Lex Fridman (28:18.320)

Part of it I'm just saying that the mechanisms

Michael Malice (28:22.520)

are flawed in many ways, yeah.

Lex Fridman (28:24.400)

Yeah, right, and so that's number one.

Michael Malice (28:26.960)

Number two is it doesn't make sense

Lex Fridman (28:29.720)

that if I don't want someone to represent me

Michael Malice (28:32.880)

that because that person is popular

Lex Fridman (28:35.240)

that they are now in a position to.

Lex Fridman (28:36.600)

So having representation and having citizenship

Lex Fridman (28:40.600)

based on geography is a prelandline technology

Michael Malice (28:44.320)

in a post cell phone world.

Lex Fridman (28:45.840)

There's no reason why I have to,

Michael Malice (28:48.080)

just because we're physically in between two oceans,

Lex Fridman (28:50.760)

we all have to be represented by the same people,

Michael Malice (28:52.960)

whereas I can very easily have my security

Lex Fridman (28:55.500)

be under someone and switch it as easily

Michael Malice (28:57.480)

as cell phone providers.

Lex Fridman (28:58.720)

So, okay, but it doesn't have to be geographical.

Michael Malice (29:01.080)

It can be ideas.

Lex Fridman (29:02.600)

Sure.

Michael Malice (29:03.440)

I mean, this country represents a certain set of ideas.

Lex Fridman (29:05.280)

Yes, it does.

Michael Malice (29:06.120)

It started out geographically.

Lex Fridman (29:07.680)

It still is geographic.

Michael Malice (29:08.520)

It was both.

Lex Fridman (29:09.360)

It started off as ideas as well.

Lex Fridman (29:10.200)

But like, it was intricately.

Lex Fridman (29:12.520)

I mean, that's the way humans are.

Michael Malice (29:14.640)

I mean, there was no internet.

Lex Fridman (29:17.120)

So it was, you were geographically in the same location

Lex Fridman (29:19.760)

and you signed a bunch of documents

Lex Fridman (29:21.160)

and then you kind of debated

Lex Fridman (29:22.520)

and you wrote a bunch of stuff

Lex Fridman (29:24.500)

and then you agreed on it.

Michael Malice (29:26.480)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (29:27.320)

You understand that no one signed these documents

Lex Fridman (29:29.480)

and no one agreed to it.

Lex Fridman (29:30.680)

As Lysander Spooner pointed out over 150 years ago,

Michael Malice (29:33.760)

the constitution or the social contract, if anything,

Lex Fridman (29:36.760)

is only binding to the signatories.

Lex Fridman (29:38.940)

And even then they're all long dead.

Lex Fridman (29:41.440)

So it's this fallacy that somehow,

Michael Malice (29:43.700)

because I'm in a physical place,

Lex Fridman (29:45.880)

I've agreed, even though I'm screaming through your face

Michael Malice (29:48.500)

that I don't agree,

Lex Fridman (29:49.560)

to be subordinate to some imaginary, invisible monster

Michael Malice (29:54.440)

that was created 250 years ago.

Lex Fridman (29:56.280)

And this idea of like, if you don't like it,

Michael Malice (29:57.960)

you have to move.

Lex Fridman (29:58.800)

That's not what freedom means.

Michael Malice (29:59.920)

Freedom means I do what I want, not what you want.

Lex Fridman (2:00:02.000)

They've got nine, I think it was.

Michael Malice (2:00:03.280)

Czech Republic has nine, Britain has five.

Lex Fridman (2:00:06.080)

So the claim that two parties

Michael Malice (2:00:08.680)

is the censorious of speech,

Lex Fridman (2:00:12.160)

but three, oh, now all of a sudden,

Michael Malice (2:00:14.200)

it makes no sense, doesn't port to the data, number one.

Lex Fridman (2:00:16.640)

Number two is Donald Trump demonstrated

Michael Malice (2:00:18.800)

that you can be basically a third party candidate,

Lex Fridman (2:00:21.080)

sees the machinery of a existing party

Lex Fridman (2:00:23.880)

and appropriate to your own ends as Bernie Sanders.

Lex Fridman (2:00:27.080)

Bernie Sanders has never been a Democrat.

Michael Malice (2:00:29.320)

Major credit to him for that's not easy

Lex Fridman (2:00:31.560)

to be elected as Senator as an independent.

Michael Malice (2:00:33.040)

He's done it repeatedly.

Lex Fridman (2:00:34.200)

So these are two examples of ossified elites

Michael Malice (2:00:37.440)

right for the picking.

Lex Fridman (2:00:38.280)

But to have a third party makes no real sense.

Michael Malice (2:00:42.880)

Speaking of which, a party you talk about quite a bit.

Lex Fridman (2:00:47.000)

And let's look, this is a personal challenge to you.

Michael Malice (2:00:53.160)

Let me bring up the Libertarian Party.

Lex Fridman (2:00:55.520)

And the personal challenge is to go five minutes

Michael Malice (2:00:58.840)

without mocking them in discussing this idea.

Lex Fridman (2:01:03.160)

So first of all, what?

Michael Malice (2:01:05.160)

I'm being trolled.

Lex Fridman (2:01:07.440)

Okay, I'm being trolled, okay, I'm being trolled.

Michael Malice (2:01:10.600)

I'm being trolled, okay, this is good.

Lex Fridman (2:01:13.320)

Do you remember the fun friends?

Michael Malice (2:01:14.720)

There was an episode where Chandler

Lex Fridman (2:01:16.000)

had to not make fun of people.

Lex Fridman (2:01:17.560)

Like, can you go one day Chandler?

Lex Fridman (2:01:19.200)

And Phoebe starts telling him about like this UFO she saw

Lex Fridman (2:01:22.800)

and he's like, that's very interesting and nice for you.

Lex Fridman (2:01:27.840)

This is exactly that.

Lex Fridman (2:01:29.280)

So a true master would be able to play

Lex Fridman (2:01:31.120)

within the game, within the constraints.

Lex Fridman (2:01:32.880)

So no, I'm pretty sure you'll still mock them.

Lex Fridman (2:01:36.320)

But no, no, I'll stick to the rules.

Michael Malice (2:01:38.480)

Five minutes, easy.

Lex Fridman (2:01:39.640)

So first of all, speaking broadly about libertarianism,

Lex Fridman (2:01:42.680)

can you speak to that, how you feel about it?

Lex Fridman (2:01:44.840)

And then also to the Libertarian Party,

Michael Malice (2:01:47.000)

which is the implementation of it in our current system.

Lex Fridman (2:01:49.680)

So I think libertarianism is a great idea.

Lex Fridman (2:01:53.720)

And I think there's many libertarian ideas

Lex Fridman (2:01:56.000)

that have become much more mainstream,

Michael Malice (2:01:58.120)

which I'm very, very happy about.

Lex Fridman (2:01:59.600)

I remember there was an article in either New York

Michael Malice (2:02:02.280)

or New Yorker Magazine in the early 90s,

Lex Fridman (2:02:05.160)

where they talked about the Cato Institute,

Michael Malice (2:02:06.720)

which is a libertarian think tank.

Lex Fridman (2:02:08.440)

And they refer to the fact that Cato was against war

Lex Fridman (2:02:11.960)

and against like regulation with a wacky consistency,

Lex Fridman (2:02:16.200)

because they didn't know how to reconcile these two things.

Michael Malice (2:02:18.560)

I don't remember what the two things were,

Lex Fridman (2:02:19.520)

but I remember that expression wacky consistency.

Lex Fridman (2:02:22.120)

And it wasn't even, we were all taught,

Lex Fridman (2:02:25.160)

and this is very much before the internet,

Michael Malice (2:02:27.160)

that there's two tribes and if you're pro life,

Lex Fridman (2:02:30.720)

you have to hate gays.

Lex Fridman (2:02:32.480)

And if you're for socialized medicine,

Lex Fridman (2:02:34.960)

that also means you have to be for free speech.

Michael Malice (2:02:39.760)

It was just this very, and like there's a whole menu

Lex Fridman (2:02:42.080)

and you got to sign it to all of them.

Lex Fridman (2:02:43.440)

And that menu is terrible.

Lex Fridman (2:02:45.720)

They hate America, they want to destroy it.

Michael Malice (2:02:47.480)

Oh my God, those are horrible evil.

Lex Fridman (2:02:48.920)

This is the menu you want.

Lex Fridman (2:02:50.280)

And the Libertarian Party to some extent,

Lex Fridman (2:02:52.600)

and just libertarians as a whole said,

Michael Malice (2:02:54.280)

you know, you can do the Chinese buffet

Lex Fridman (2:02:57.080)

and take a little from column A, a little from column B

Lex Fridman (2:02:59.480)

and have an ideology that is coherent and consistent,

Lex Fridman (2:03:03.840)

an ideology of peace and nonaggression

Lex Fridman (2:03:07.600)

and things like that.

Lex Fridman (2:03:08.760)

The Libertarian Party takes its model

Michael Malice (2:03:12.600)

from like the early progressive and populist parties

Lex Fridman (2:03:15.240)

from the early 20th century,

Michael Malice (2:03:16.680)

which were not very effective

Lex Fridman (2:03:18.400)

in terms of getting people elected,

Lex Fridman (2:03:20.840)

but were extremely effective

Lex Fridman (2:03:23.240)

in terms of getting the two major parties

Michael Malice (2:03:25.240)

to appropriate and adopt their ideas and implement them.

Lex Fridman (2:03:27.960)

And in Britain as well, the liberal party got destroyed

Lex Fridman (2:03:30.440)

and became taken over by labor

Lex Fridman (2:03:32.200)

as the alternative party to the Tories

Lex Fridman (2:03:34.840)

and have those ideas basically become mainstreamed.

Lex Fridman (2:03:38.640)

So I think that, and the libertarian,

Michael Malice (2:03:40.480)

my friend who passed away, Eric, I miss him dearly,

Lex Fridman (2:03:43.520)

was their webmaster and his whole point is,

Michael Malice (2:03:46.000)

if you don't think of that in terms of a party,

Lex Fridman (2:03:47.680)

in terms of getting people elected,

Lex Fridman (2:03:49.080)

but if you think of it as a party

Lex Fridman (2:03:50.320)

in terms of getting people educated about alternatives,

Michael Malice (2:03:53.880)

then there's enormous use for that.

Lex Fridman (2:03:55.800)

That was his perspective.

Lex Fridman (2:03:56.720)

And I don't think that's an absurd perspective.

Lex Fridman (2:03:58.720)

But here's some libertarian ideas

Michael Malice (2:04:00.160)

that have become extremely mainstream.

Lex Fridman (2:04:02.400)

War should be a last resort.

Michael Malice (2:04:04.720)

This is something we were taught as kids and we all say,

Lex Fridman (2:04:07.120)

but for many years, it's been like,

Michael Malice (2:04:09.280)

they don't think of it as a last resort.

Lex Fridman (2:04:10.440)

It's like something's bad, well, it's like the first instinct.

Michael Malice (2:04:12.960)

Now it's like, let's really give it a week, just a week.

Lex Fridman (2:04:15.480)

Like what's going on in Syria?

Lex Fridman (2:04:16.800)

Is there really gonna be a genocide, the Kurds?

Lex Fridman (2:04:18.840)

You know, things like that.

Lex Fridman (2:04:19.680)

So that's one.

Lex Fridman (2:04:20.520)

Another thing is drug legalization.

Michael Malice (2:04:22.880)

This was, you know, when you and I were kids,

Lex Fridman (2:04:25.000)

oh, it's crazy.

Michael Malice (2:04:25.840)

Only hippies wanna smoke pot.

Lex Fridman (2:04:27.240)

Now it's like, I was on a grand jury.

Lex Fridman (2:04:30.000)

And I'll point out what people make is,

Lex Fridman (2:04:32.440)

are you sure that the 16 year old who's selling weed,

Lex Fridman (2:04:35.960)

let's say selling, should his life be ruined?

Lex Fridman (2:04:39.640)

Should he be imprisoned with rapists and murderers?

Michael Malice (2:04:41.920)

Like if you say yes, say yes,

Lex Fridman (2:04:44.800)

but you have to acknowledge that that's what you're meaning.

Lex Fridman (2:04:48.880)

And then a lot of people are like, wait a minute,

Lex Fridman (2:04:50.760)

there's gotta be a third option

Michael Malice (2:04:52.080)

then he has no consequences or he's imprisoned

Lex Fridman (2:04:54.720)

with a rapist.

Michael Malice (2:04:55.560)

I'm not comfortable with either of these.

Lex Fridman (2:04:57.640)

And I think the other one is an increasing skepticism.

Michael Malice (2:05:01.160)

This libertarians were on top of this first

Lex Fridman (2:05:02.800)

and the hard left of the police.

Michael Malice (2:05:05.280)

As of now, asset forfeiture steals more from people

Lex Fridman (2:05:08.360)

than burglaries.

Lex Fridman (2:05:09.200)

What people don't know about what asset forfeiture is,

Lex Fridman (2:05:11.320)

if the cops come to your house and they suspect you,

Michael Malice (2:05:13.840)

you haven't been convicted of using your car or your house

Lex Fridman (2:05:17.680)

or whatever in terms of selling drugs,

Michael Malice (2:05:19.960)

they can take whatever they want.

Lex Fridman (2:05:22.440)

And then you have to sue to prove your innocence

Lex Fridman (2:05:25.200)

and get your property back.

Lex Fridman (2:05:26.320)

It's a complete violation of due process.

Michael Malice (2:05:28.240)

People don't realize it's going on.

Lex Fridman (2:05:29.480)

It's a great way for the cops to increase their budgets

Lex Fridman (2:05:31.880)

and it's legal.

Lex Fridman (2:05:32.960)

And libertarians were like the first big ones saying,

Michael Malice (2:05:35.640)

guys, this is not American and this is crazy.

Lex Fridman (2:05:37.920)

And now increasingly people on conservatives and leftists

Michael Malice (2:05:40.760)

like, wait a minute, this is...

Lex Fridman (2:05:42.680)

Even if you are selling drugs, like they take your house,

Lex Fridman (2:05:44.640)

what are you talking about?

Lex Fridman (2:05:45.800)

So I think those are some mechanisms that libertarianism,

Michael Malice (2:05:49.240)

though not by name, has become far more popular.

Lex Fridman (2:05:52.560)

Yeah, it's interesting, so the idea, yeah, a coherent set

Michael Malice (2:05:55.960)

of ideas that eventually get integrated

Lex Fridman (2:06:00.120)

into a two party system.

Michael Malice (2:06:01.240)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:06:02.080)

The war, that's an interesting one.

Michael Malice (2:06:03.200)

You're right.

Lex Fridman (2:06:05.000)

I wonder what the thread there is.

Michael Malice (2:06:07.400)

I wonder how it connects to 9 11 and so on.

Lex Fridman (2:06:11.080)

I think the Patriot Act.

Michael Malice (2:06:13.800)

Patriot Act, okay.

Lex Fridman (2:06:14.640)

For people who are politically savvy,

Michael Malice (2:06:16.800)

we're like, oh, okay, this is not a joke.

Lex Fridman (2:06:20.720)

This is really a crazy infringement of our freedoms

Lex Fridman (2:06:24.120)

and both parties are falling over each other

Lex Fridman (2:06:27.040)

to sign into law and the Orwellian name.

Michael Malice (2:06:30.320)

You don't wanna...

Lex Fridman (2:06:31.160)

How can you be against patriotism?

Lex Fridman (2:06:32.400)

What kind of person?

Lex Fridman (2:06:33.240)

You know what I mean?

Lex Fridman (2:06:34.080)

So I think for a lot of people,

Lex Fridman (2:06:34.920)

especially both civil libertarians on the left

Lex Fridman (2:06:37.240)

and a lot of conservatives who are constitutionalists

Lex Fridman (2:06:39.400)

are like, wait a minute, this isn't...

Michael Malice (2:06:41.000)

I'm not comfortable with this.

Lex Fridman (2:06:42.280)

And I'm also not comfortable with how comfortable everyone

Michael Malice (2:06:44.120)

in Washington is with it.

Lex Fridman (2:06:45.680)

You're right, probably libertarians

Lex Fridman (2:06:48.760)

and libertarianism is a place of ideas,

Lex Fridman (2:06:52.160)

which is why I have a connection to it.

Michael Malice (2:06:57.560)

Every time I listen to those folks, I like them.

Lex Fridman (2:07:00.400)

I feel connected to them.

Michael Malice (2:07:01.520)

I would even sometimes, depending on the day,

Lex Fridman (2:07:03.440)

call myself a libertarian.

Michael Malice (2:07:05.200)

Well, we're all the spectrum, so that's why.

Lex Fridman (2:07:06.600)

We're all on the spectrum, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:07:08.280)

But when I look at the people that actually rise to the top

Lex Fridman (2:07:12.480)

in terms of the people who represent the party,

Lex Fridman (2:07:15.600)

this is where five minutes ran out, right?

Lex Fridman (2:07:18.120)

I could go, I'm allowed.

Lex Fridman (2:07:19.760)

You can go, why are they so weird?

Lex Fridman (2:07:22.320)

Why aren't strong candidates emerging

Michael Malice (2:07:26.800)

that represent as political representatives

Lex Fridman (2:07:31.880)

or as famous speakers that represent ideology?

Michael Malice (2:07:38.120)

I think libertarians tend to...

Lex Fridman (2:07:40.320)

I think Jonathan Haidt in his book, in his research,

Michael Malice (2:07:43.040)

he's a political scientist and he does a lot of things

Lex Fridman (2:07:45.000)

about how people come to their political inclusions

Lex Fridman (2:07:46.720)

and what factors force people to reach conclusions.

Lex Fridman (2:07:50.840)

And he found that libertarians are the least empathetic

Lex Fridman (2:07:53.640)

and most rationalistic of all the groups.

Lex Fridman (2:07:56.120)

And by that, he means like they think in terms of logic

Michael Malice (2:07:58.120)

as opposed to like people's feelings

Lex Fridman (2:07:59.640)

and that has positives and has negatives.

Lex Fridman (2:08:04.320)

And we have the A, B testing with Ron Paul.

Lex Fridman (2:08:07.120)

Ron Paul ran for president as a libertarian nominee.

Michael Malice (2:08:10.600)

He was the nominee.

Lex Fridman (2:08:11.680)

He got pretty much nowhere in 1988.

Michael Malice (2:08:14.040)

Then he ran as a return to the Republican party

Lex Fridman (2:08:16.080)

as a congressman for many years from Texas.

Michael Malice (2:08:18.040)

He ran for the presidency in 2008 and 2012.

Lex Fridman (2:08:22.480)

And in 2008, he stood on stage with Rudy Giuliani

Lex Fridman (2:08:26.560)

and told him that they were here in 9 11

Lex Fridman (2:08:29.080)

because we're over there,

Michael Malice (2:08:30.360)

which would have been a shocking, horrifying taboo

Lex Fridman (2:08:33.840)

a few years earlier.

Michael Malice (2:08:35.080)

Many people were like, holy crap, this is amazing.

Lex Fridman (2:08:37.320)

Giuliani was all offended and Ron Paul's like...

Michael Malice (2:08:39.160)

I took some guts by the way.

Lex Fridman (2:08:40.640)

Yeah, you did.

Michael Malice (2:08:41.940)

When I heard that, it was so refreshing.

Lex Fridman (2:08:44.160)

Not what he said, but the fact that he said something

Michael Malice (2:08:47.200)

that took guts.

Lex Fridman (2:08:48.280)

It made me realize how rare it is for politicians,

Lex Fridman (2:08:53.440)

but even people to say something that takes guts.

Lex Fridman (2:08:56.040)

Well, it's also the idea that like you can't,

Michael Malice (2:08:58.680)

even if you think America has a right

Lex Fridman (2:09:01.120)

to invade any country on earth as much as it wants

Lex Fridman (2:09:03.980)

and kill people as a consequence of war

Lex Fridman (2:09:06.540)

and blow up their buildings and destroy their country,

Michael Malice (2:09:09.360)

you can't with a straight face

Lex Fridman (2:09:11.040)

not expect us to have consequences,

Michael Malice (2:09:13.800)

even if they're consequences from evil people.

Lex Fridman (2:09:15.940)

Even if we're 100% of the good guys

Lex Fridman (2:09:17.620)

and they're 100% of the bad guys,

Lex Fridman (2:09:19.060)

those bad guys, some of them are still gonna try

Michael Malice (2:09:21.080)

to do something.

Lex Fridman (2:09:22.300)

What happens next?

Lex Fridman (2:09:23.480)

You know what I mean?

Lex Fridman (2:09:24.320)

So that kind of concept that there's any American

Michael Malice (2:09:27.360)

culpability, we're America, we are the good guys

Lex Fridman (2:09:30.960)

by definition, we're not culpable,

Michael Malice (2:09:32.400)

to have people start thinking about

Lex Fridman (2:09:34.120)

what if there's another way?

Michael Malice (2:09:35.520)

You know, what if we're not there

Lex Fridman (2:09:37.120)

and then they're not here

Lex Fridman (2:09:38.080)

and we're kind of doing a backdoor,

Lex Fridman (2:09:39.600)

we're talking so different scenarios.

Lex Fridman (2:09:41.840)

So the fact that he got so much more traction

Lex Fridman (2:09:44.560)

as a Republican, the fact that Donald Trump

Michael Malice (2:09:47.560)

who came out of nowhere became not only the candidate,

Lex Fridman (2:09:50.680)

but the president tells people,

Lex Fridman (2:09:52.980)

it's like getting a book deal, right?

Lex Fridman (2:09:54.840)

You can either go, there's three choices.

Michael Malice (2:09:57.460)

You can either self publish, mainstream publisher

Lex Fridman (2:10:00.540)

or independent publisher.

Michael Malice (2:10:03.200)

The independent publisher is the worst of all choices

Lex Fridman (2:10:05.920)

because you're not getting a big advance,

Michael Malice (2:10:07.960)

they're not gonna be able to promote you a lot

Lex Fridman (2:10:10.580)

and they don't get the distribution.

Lex Fridman (2:10:12.920)

Mainstream, I've done mainstream and self, right?

Lex Fridman (2:10:15.480)

With self, I don't have the cred,

Michael Malice (2:10:18.280)

the respectability of a mainstream or the cache.

Lex Fridman (2:10:20.560)

It can be a New York Times bestseller.

Michael Malice (2:10:22.640)

Right, it takes a lot of work,

Lex Fridman (2:10:24.340)

but I get a lot more of the profit.

Michael Malice (2:10:26.980)

If it looks good on the shelf on Amazon,

Lex Fridman (2:10:28.640)

it looks identical, so on and so forth.

Michael Malice (2:10:30.420)

With the mainstream, the benefits and costs

Lex Fridman (2:10:32.420)

are pretty much obvious to most people.

Lex Fridman (2:10:34.320)

So the same thing, it's like you can either

Lex Fridman (2:10:35.780)

be an independent like Ross Perot

Michael Malice (2:10:37.840)

or you could be, just seize one of the party apparatus,

Lex Fridman (2:10:41.180)

which the benefits are enormous there.

Lex Fridman (2:10:42.880)

But in terms of going third party,

Lex Fridman (2:10:45.160)

I don't know the libertarian party apparatus

Michael Malice (2:10:47.080)

other than maybe some ballot access

Lex Fridman (2:10:48.880)

is really that efficacious.

Lex Fridman (2:10:50.720)

And then you're gonna have a lot of baggage.

Lex Fridman (2:10:52.600)

Cause if you hear independent, Jesse Ventura, Ross Perot,

Michael Malice (2:10:56.080)

you think of the person.

Lex Fridman (2:10:57.400)

Now you have to define yourself

Lex Fridman (2:10:59.360)

and you have to defend the party.

Lex Fridman (2:11:01.200)

That's two bridges for most people.

Michael Malice (2:11:03.160)

So, brilliantly put, okay, let me speak to you.

Lex Fridman (2:11:09.080)

Cause I'm speaking to Yaron Brooks soon.

Michael Malice (2:11:12.240)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:11:14.180)

I like him.

Michael Malice (2:11:15.020)

Yeah, so, but that, another example, I was.

Lex Fridman (2:11:19.140)

Ask him to tell you a joke about Ayn Rand,

Michael Malice (2:11:21.480)

if he can do it.

Lex Fridman (2:11:23.820)

So there, that's one criticism I've heard you say,

Michael Malice (2:11:26.900)

which is they're unable to speak to any weaknesses

Lex Fridman (2:11:30.980)

in either Ayn Rand's or objectivist worldview.

Michael Malice (2:11:34.320)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (2:11:35.280)

That's really, well, you put it,

Michael Malice (2:11:38.320)

I know you're half joking,

Lex Fridman (2:11:39.620)

but that's actually a legitimate discussion to have.

Michael Malice (2:11:43.320)

I'm not joking at all.

Lex Fridman (2:11:44.440)

Because that's, to me, one of the criticisms

Lex Fridman (2:11:47.520)

and one of the explanations why the world

Lex Fridman (2:11:49.280)

seems to disrespect Ayn Rand, the people that do,

Michael Malice (2:11:53.640)

is she kind of implies that her ideas are like flawless.

Lex Fridman (2:11:58.640)

No, she says they correspond to reality.

Michael Malice (2:12:01.380)

Yeah, right.

Lex Fridman (2:12:02.260)

That's the term she uses.

Michael Malice (2:12:03.620)

That, I mean, objectivist, it's in the name.

Lex Fridman (2:12:08.260)

It's, you know, it's just facts.

Michael Malice (2:12:10.980)

Like, it's impossible to basically argue against

Lex Fridman (2:12:14.140)

cause it's pretty simple, it's just all facts.

Michael Malice (2:12:16.780)

Well, that's, it's possible to argue against,

Lex Fridman (2:12:18.340)

but she would say she's never met a good critic

Michael Malice (2:12:20.820)

who can argue the facts out of misrepresentation.

Lex Fridman (2:12:22.900)

And she's not entirely wrong.

Michael Malice (2:12:24.100)

She's often caricatured,

Lex Fridman (2:12:25.140)

cause she has a very extreme personality

Lex Fridman (2:12:26.860)

and extreme worldview.

Lex Fridman (2:12:28.180)

But that to me, I mean, some people,

Michael Malice (2:12:30.060)

there's a guy named in the physics mathematics community

Lex Fridman (2:12:32.700)

called Stephen Wolfram.

Michael Malice (2:12:34.660)

I don't know if you've heard of him.

Lex Fridman (2:12:35.500)

Wolfram Malfoy?

Michael Malice (2:12:36.340)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:12:37.160)

Okay.

Michael Malice (2:12:38.000)

He has a similar style of speaking sometimes,

Lex Fridman (2:12:39.700)

which is like, I've created a science,

Lex Fridman (2:12:44.180)

but that turns a lot of people off,

Lex Fridman (2:12:46.540)

like this kind of weird confidence.

Lex Fridman (2:12:48.820)

But he's one of my favorite people,

Lex Fridman (2:12:50.420)

I think one of the most brilliant people.

Michael Malice (2:12:52.520)

If you just ignore that little bit of ego

Lex Fridman (2:12:56.060)

or whatever you call that,

Michael Malice (2:12:57.900)

that there are some beautiful ideas in there.

Lex Fridman (2:12:59.620)

And that, for me, objectivism,

Michael Malice (2:13:03.420)

I'm undereducated about it.

Lex Fridman (2:13:06.380)

I hope to be more educated,

Lex Fridman (2:13:08.380)

but there's some interesting ideas that,

Lex Fridman (2:13:10.420)

again, just like with UFOs,

Michael Malice (2:13:14.300)

not that there's a connection between the two.

Lex Fridman (2:13:15.460)

Don't bring that up for your own.

Michael Malice (2:13:16.460)

He won't like it.

Lex Fridman (2:13:17.300)

He won't.

Michael Malice (2:13:18.140)

My friends like UFOs.

Lex Fridman (2:13:19.100)

Oh, no, no, no, this interview is over.

Michael Malice (2:13:21.180)

That's a good yarn.

Lex Fridman (2:13:24.060)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (2:13:25.180)

But you know, you have to be a little bit open minded,

Lex Fridman (2:13:27.500)

but what's your sense of objectivism?

Michael Malice (2:13:31.500)

Are there interesting ideas

Lex Fridman (2:13:32.780)

that are useful to you to think about?

Michael Malice (2:13:35.580)

I own her copy of the first printing of The Fountainhead.

Lex Fridman (2:13:38.420)

So that should tell you a little bit

Michael Malice (2:13:39.620)

about how my affection for Ms. Rand,

Lex Fridman (2:13:41.540)

how heavy that goes.

Michael Malice (2:13:44.220)

Ayn Rand does not have all the answers,

Lex Fridman (2:13:46.000)

but she has all the questions.

Lex Fridman (2:13:47.660)

So if you study Rand,

Lex Fridman (2:13:49.060)

you are going to be forced to think through

Michael Malice (2:13:50.900)

some very basic things,

Lex Fridman (2:13:52.140)

and you're gonna have your eyes open very, very heavily.

Michael Malice (2:13:54.920)

She was not perfect.

Lex Fridman (2:13:56.060)

She never claimed to be perfect.

Michael Malice (2:13:57.340)

She was asked on Donahue,

Lex Fridman (2:13:59.460)

is it true that according to your philosophy,

Lex Fridman (2:14:01.260)

you are a perfect being?

Lex Fridman (2:14:02.500)

She said, I never think of myself that way.

Lex Fridman (2:14:05.100)

And she said, but if you asked me,

Lex Fridman (2:14:06.460)

do I practice what I preach?

Michael Malice (2:14:07.580)

The answer is yes, resoundingly.

Lex Fridman (2:14:10.220)

She's a fascinating woman.

Lex Fridman (2:14:13.340)

What is really interesting about her,

Lex Fridman (2:14:15.480)

and this is something you'd appreciate personally,

Michael Malice (2:14:17.820)

is when you read her essays,

Lex Fridman (2:14:19.380)

she'll have these weird asides.

Lex Fridman (2:14:21.740)

And it looked like she was talking about art,

Lex Fridman (2:14:23.020)

and she'd be like, and this is why the US

Michael Malice (2:14:24.220)

should be the only country with nuclear weapons.

Lex Fridman (2:14:25.900)

And when you follow a brilliant mind

Michael Malice (2:14:28.220)

making these seemingly disparate connections,

Lex Fridman (2:14:31.340)

it's something I find to be just absolutely inspiring

Lex Fridman (2:14:33.660)

and awesome and entertaining.

Lex Fridman (2:14:36.140)

I think there's lots of things about her

Michael Malice (2:14:38.500)

that people like Yaron would make uncomfortable.

Lex Fridman (2:14:43.420)

Well, like she, they,

Lex Fridman (2:14:45.420)

so objectivism, like any other philosophy,

Lex Fridman (2:14:47.660)

has all these techniques to kind of hand wave away things

Michael Malice (2:14:50.860)

you don't wanna talk about and like pretend it.

Lex Fridman (2:14:52.820)

So they talk about things like having

Lex Fridman (2:14:54.380)

no metaphysical significance, right?

Lex Fridman (2:14:57.020)

So what that means is like, well, what about this?

Michael Malice (2:14:58.620)

Ah, I don't wanna talk about it.

Lex Fridman (2:14:59.700)

Like it doesn't matter.

Michael Malice (2:15:00.620)

Like it literally means in fancy philosophical terms,

Lex Fridman (2:15:02.900)

it doesn't matter.

Michael Malice (2:15:03.860)

Or they will say correctly,

Lex Fridman (2:15:06.120)

that it's very twisted in our culture

Michael Malice (2:15:09.580)

that when we have heroes, we look for their flaws

Lex Fridman (2:15:12.520)

instead of looking for their virtues.

Michael Malice (2:15:13.940)

That's a hundred percent valid perspective.

Lex Fridman (2:15:16.420)

However, if I'm sitting here telling you

Michael Malice (2:15:19.540)

that I think this woman is a badass,

Lex Fridman (2:15:22.020)

and she's amazing and she should be studied,

Lex Fridman (2:15:24.660)

but there's also these idiosyncrasies,

Lex Fridman (2:15:26.640)

they don't wanna hear it.

Michael Malice (2:15:27.900)

Because they, and I think it's very convenient for them

Lex Fridman (2:15:30.340)

because there's a lot of things she did that were,

Michael Malice (2:15:32.220)

here's an example.

Lex Fridman (2:15:33.380)

Rand was very, very pro happiness and pleasure.

Michael Malice (2:15:36.720)

She was very pro sex, which is kind of surprising

Lex Fridman (2:15:39.420)

looking at her and how she talked and how strident she was.

Michael Malice (2:15:41.820)

As a result of this, she never got her cats fixed

Lex Fridman (2:15:45.000)

to deny them the pleasure of orgasm.

Lex Fridman (2:15:46.960)

So her male cats are spraying up her entire house.

Lex Fridman (2:15:50.000)

Like that is, I mean, that's her putting her philosophy

Michael Malice (2:15:53.420)

into practice, but it's still gross.

Lex Fridman (2:15:55.900)

So that's the kind of thing where I don't think he'd be,

Michael Malice (2:15:58.180)

another thing is Rand had an article on a woman president

Lex Fridman (2:16:01.940)

and she said a woman should never be president, right?

Michael Malice (2:16:04.500)

Now, when Rand says things that are too goofy for them,

Lex Fridman (2:16:06.980)

they say, oh, that's not objectivism,

Michael Malice (2:16:09.660)

that's her personal preference.

Lex Fridman (2:16:11.160)

It's like, she did not have these lines.

Michael Malice (2:16:14.360)

Objectivism was always defined as Ayn Rand's writings,

Lex Fridman (2:16:18.200)

plus the additional essays in her books.

Lex Fridman (2:16:20.180)

So if this was in part of those books,

Lex Fridman (2:16:22.240)

this counts as official objectivism,

Lex Fridman (2:16:24.060)

but they pretend otherwise.

Lex Fridman (2:16:25.220)

So that's another example.

Michael Malice (2:16:26.420)

Plus she was, and I bet you she was on the spectrum

Lex Fridman (2:16:30.140)

to some extent, I'm not joking,

Michael Malice (2:16:31.300)

I'm not using that derisively.

Lex Fridman (2:16:32.700)

She was of the belief and not inaccurately,

Michael Malice (2:16:36.460)

because that humor is used to denigrate and humiliate.

Lex Fridman (2:16:40.900)

And she was thinking about the Jon Stewart type

Michael Malice (2:16:42.660)

before there was a Jon Stewart.

Lex Fridman (2:16:43.860)

And a lot of times, like how I use mocking,

Lex Fridman (2:16:46.540)

but she was resentful, correctly,

Lex Fridman (2:16:49.340)

that a lot of times people who are great and accomplished,

Michael Malice (2:16:51.880)

little nobodies will make a punchline

Lex Fridman (2:16:54.940)

just to bring them down and despise her.

Michael Malice (2:16:56.700)

Here's an example I just thought of.

Lex Fridman (2:16:58.140)

I remember when it was, must have been the 90s,

Michael Malice (2:17:01.140)

they had a segment on MTV of all these musicians

Lex Fridman (2:17:04.740)

who were making their own perfumes, right?

Lex Fridman (2:17:07.460)

And this girl grabbed Prince's perfume,

Lex Fridman (2:17:09.340)

and before she even smelled it, she had the joke ready.

Michael Malice (2:17:11.100)

She goes, oh, this smells almost as bad

Lex Fridman (2:17:13.220)

as his music lately.

Michael Malice (2:17:14.380)

It's like, first of all, I'm sure the perfume's fine.

Lex Fridman (2:17:16.300)

And second of all, this is Prince.

Michael Malice (2:17:18.140)

He's one of the all time greats,

Lex Fridman (2:17:19.700)

and you can't wait to denigrate him.

Lex Fridman (2:17:22.820)

And part, I wanna be like, how dare you?

Lex Fridman (2:17:25.660)

Like as if this perfume in any way,

Michael Malice (2:17:29.380)

in any way mitigates his amazing accomplishments

Lex Fridman (2:17:32.020)

and achievements, you horrible person.

Lex Fridman (2:17:34.060)

But I do have some great Ayn Rand jokes,

Lex Fridman (2:17:36.580)

and he would not be happy about them.

Michael Malice (2:17:38.500)

The perfume thing, the problem with it is just not funny.

Lex Fridman (2:17:40.980)

Oh, he sucks, okay, great.

Michael Malice (2:17:43.460)

Not that they dared to try to be humorous,

Lex Fridman (2:17:47.380)

because I don't know why you mentioned John,

Michael Malice (2:17:48.780)

because John Stewart can be funny.

Lex Fridman (2:17:50.460)

Right, but he taught a generation,

Michael Malice (2:17:53.260)

you still see this on Twitter,

Lex Fridman (2:17:55.060)

where things have to be inherently sarcastic and snide.

Lex Fridman (2:17:58.900)

But isn't that, I mean, aren't you practicing that?

Lex Fridman (2:18:00.900)

No, I use irony, not sarcasm.

Michael Malice (2:18:02.740)

Here's an example.

Lex Fridman (2:18:03.580)

When people, like you say something,

Lex Fridman (2:18:05.180)

and someone replied, it'd be like,

Lex Fridman (2:18:07.000)

last I checked, blah, blah, blah, blah,

Lex Fridman (2:18:08.740)

and I'll say that, I go,

Lex Fridman (2:18:09.860)

what do you think saying last I checked added to your point?

Michael Malice (2:18:12.060)

You're giving me valuable information and data,

Lex Fridman (2:18:14.500)

but you are trained to believe

Michael Malice (2:18:16.440)

that it has to be couched in this sneering.

Lex Fridman (2:18:19.460)

It doesn't, just give me the information.

Michael Malice (2:18:21.140)

This is useful information.

Lex Fridman (2:18:22.460)

Yeah, that's true.

Michael Malice (2:18:24.060)

It's a knee jerk.

Lex Fridman (2:18:24.940)

But see, John Stewart did it masterfully.

Michael Malice (2:18:27.060)

Correct, and they don't.

Lex Fridman (2:18:28.060)

And they don't, it's like people who copy comedians,

Michael Malice (2:18:30.860)

certain comedians, you try to copy them

Lex Fridman (2:18:34.840)

and use everything in the process of copying.

Michael Malice (2:18:37.060)

Yeah, yep, okay.

Lex Fridman (2:18:40.120)

But in terms of the philosophy of selfishness,

Michael Malice (2:18:44.920)

this kind of individual focused idea,

Lex Fridman (2:18:47.880)

and I imagine that connects with you.

Michael Malice (2:18:50.860)

Yes, and I think it would connect with more people

Lex Fridman (2:18:52.960)

if they understood what she meant by it.

Michael Malice (2:18:54.300)

Nathaniel Brandon, who was her heir

Lex Fridman (2:18:55.800)

until she kind of broke with him,

Lex Fridman (2:18:57.160)

and he was a co dedicatee of Atlas Shrugged,

Lex Fridman (2:19:00.400)

said no one will say Ayn Rand's views with a straight face.

Michael Malice (2:19:04.200)

They won't say, I believe that my happiness matters

Lex Fridman (2:19:08.200)

and is important and is worth fighting for,

Lex Fridman (2:19:10.480)

and that Ayn Rand says this, then she's dangerous.

Lex Fridman (2:19:13.040)

Now, it's very easy to say

Michael Malice (2:19:14.560)

this could have dangerous consequences

Lex Fridman (2:19:16.340)

if you're a sociopath,

Lex Fridman (2:19:17.600)

but to put it in those terms, I think is extremely healthy.

Lex Fridman (2:19:21.220)

I think more people should wanna be happy.

Lex Fridman (2:19:23.000)

And I think a lot of us are raised to be apologetic,

Lex Fridman (2:19:26.640)

especially in this cynical media culture,

Michael Malice (2:19:29.360)

that if you say, I wanna be happy, I wanna love my life,

Lex Fridman (2:19:32.400)

that it's just like, okay, sweetheart.

Lex Fridman (2:19:34.240)

And the eye rolling,

Lex Fridman (2:19:35.680)

and I think that's so pernicious and so horrifying,

Michael Malice (2:19:37.960)

this is why I'm a Camus person,

Lex Fridman (2:19:39.480)

because Camus thought the archenemy was cynicism

Lex Fridman (2:19:41.400)

and I could not agree more.

Lex Fridman (2:19:42.840)

Like if you're the kind of person,

Michael Malice (2:19:44.080)

if someone likes a band and you're like,

Lex Fridman (2:19:45.400)

oh, you like them, blah, blah, blah,

Michael Malice (2:19:46.600)

it's like, this gives them happiness.

Lex Fridman (2:19:49.160)

Now, there's certain exceptions,

Lex Fridman (2:19:50.000)

but if it gives you happiness, it's not for you,

Lex Fridman (2:19:52.360)

that's cool.

Michael Malice (2:19:54.160)

Okay, this is beautiful.

Lex Fridman (2:19:55.800)

I so agree with you on the eye rolling,

Lex Fridman (2:19:59.340)

but you see the best of trolling as not the eye roll.

Lex Fridman (2:20:04.100)

Correct, of course not.

Michael Malice (2:20:05.320)

The best of trolling is taking down the eye rollers.

Lex Fridman (2:20:08.920)

I'm gonna have to think about that.

Michael Malice (2:20:10.120)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (2:20:10.960)

Because I kind of.

Michael Malice (2:20:11.780)

Have another Red Bull.

Lex Fridman (2:20:12.620)

Yeah, I was, yeah.

Michael Malice (2:20:15.660)

Because I put them all.

Lex Fridman (2:20:16.500)

My blood type is Red Bull.

Michael Malice (2:20:20.880)

I kind of put them all in the same bin.

Lex Fridman (2:20:22.800)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (2:20:23.640)

And they're not.

Lex Fridman (2:20:24.460)

They're not.

Michael Malice (2:20:25.300)

They're not.

Lex Fridman (2:20:26.140)

Okay, all right.

Michael Malice (2:20:26.960)

Here's another example of trolling.

Lex Fridman (2:20:29.160)

I was making jokes about Ron Paul,

Lex Fridman (2:20:30.600)

he just had a stroke, right?

Lex Fridman (2:20:32.720)

And someone came at me and they're like,

Michael Malice (2:20:35.080)

blah, blah, blah, blah.

Lex Fridman (2:20:36.000)

You know, you're ugly.

Michael Malice (2:20:37.440)

I hope you have a stroke.

Lex Fridman (2:20:38.520)

I hope you're in the hospital.

Lex Fridman (2:20:39.440)

And I just go, I just did have a stroke on your mom's face.

Lex Fridman (2:20:42.280)

So they came at me and now they got put in their place.

Michael Malice (2:20:47.040)

With a subpar, I mean.

Lex Fridman (2:20:50.320)

I wasn't clever.

Michael Malice (2:20:51.280)

You weren't clever.

Lex Fridman (2:20:52.400)

Not particularly, no.

Michael Malice (2:20:53.640)

Well, one of your things you do, which is interesting,

Lex Fridman (2:20:57.000)

I mean, I give you props in a sense,

Michael Malice (2:20:59.280)

is you're willing to go farther than people expect you to.

Lex Fridman (2:21:03.840)

Yes, that's fun.

Michael Malice (2:21:05.180)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:21:06.020)

In fact, I'll probably edit out like half of this podcast

Michael Malice (2:21:09.480)

because the thing you did, which she kept in,

Lex Fridman (2:21:12.560)

should mention, is Michaela Peterson now has a podcast,

Michael Malice (2:21:15.920)

which is nice.

Lex Fridman (2:21:16.840)

I guess, was it on her podcast?

Michael Malice (2:21:18.400)

She was on mine.

Lex Fridman (2:21:19.220)

She was on yours.

Michael Malice (2:21:20.060)

We did both, but this is when you're referring

Lex Fridman (2:21:21.400)

to when she was on mine.

Michael Malice (2:21:22.400)

She was on, yeah, right.

Lex Fridman (2:21:23.560)

And you went right for the, for the.

Lex Fridman (2:21:27.880)

So I'll tell you what it was.

Lex Fridman (2:21:29.040)

You don't have to paraphrase.

Michael Malice (2:21:29.880)

I opened up, I say, you know, she's Jordan Peterson's dad.

Lex Fridman (2:21:32.560)

And as many people know, sorry, he's her dad, yeah.

Michael Malice (2:21:36.200)

He's had a long issue with substance addiction.

Lex Fridman (2:21:39.880)

And I said to her, you're most famous

Michael Malice (2:21:42.800)

for being Jordan Peterson's daughter.

Lex Fridman (2:21:45.360)

Many people, he's changed so many lives around the world.

Lex Fridman (2:21:48.160)

And he's been such an enormous influence to me personally

Lex Fridman (2:21:51.720)

that I've started taking benzodiazepines recreationally.

Lex Fridman (2:21:54.760)

And she's like, oh my God, Michael, it's so horrible.

Lex Fridman (2:21:58.520)

Yeah, because you pulled me in with this,

Michael Malice (2:22:01.140)

cause you're talking, I mean, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:22:02.920)

cause he's going through a rough time.

Michael Malice (2:22:04.360)

Now she's going through just everything was just,

Lex Fridman (2:22:07.400)

you pulled me in emotionally.

Michael Malice (2:22:08.920)

I was like, this is going to be the sweet,

Lex Fridman (2:22:11.560)

Mike is going to be just this wonderful.

Lex Fridman (2:22:14.640)

And then just bam.

Lex Fridman (2:22:16.080)

So that's, that's, that's, that was props to you on that.

Michael Malice (2:22:21.000)

It wasn't, whatever that is, that is an art form

Lex Fridman (2:22:24.720)

when done well, it can be taken too far.

Michael Malice (2:22:27.800)

My criticism is it, that feels too good for some people.

Lex Fridman (2:22:33.160)

What do you mean?

Michael Malice (2:22:34.000)

Oh, they're too happy being a reverend

Lex Fridman (2:22:35.960)

cause to show that they don't care about anything.

Michael Malice (2:22:37.320)

That's another form of cynicism though.

Lex Fridman (2:22:38.960)

Right, so I, cause you think it's possible to be a troll

Lex Fridman (2:22:42.440)

and still be the live life to its highest ideal

Lex Fridman (2:22:46.960)

in the Camus sense.

Michael Malice (2:22:48.080)

I try, that's kind of my ideal.

Lex Fridman (2:22:51.080)

I believe it's not, it becomes a drug.

Michael Malice (2:22:55.840)

I feel like that takes you,

Lex Fridman (2:22:57.080)

like I think love ultimately is the way to experience

Michael Malice (2:23:01.860)

like every moment of every day.

Lex Fridman (2:23:04.240)

You don't think that was an expression of,

Michael Malice (2:23:06.800)

I honestly think, let's split hairs here

Lex Fridman (2:23:09.680)

cause I think this is something of use here.

Michael Malice (2:23:12.080)

I do think that me,

Lex Fridman (2:23:15.960)

me being able to make her laugh

Michael Malice (2:23:18.560)

about this year of hell she was in

Lex Fridman (2:23:21.240)

does create an element of love

Lex Fridman (2:23:23.380)

and connection between me and her.

Lex Fridman (2:23:25.080)

Yeah, but I know she would say that.

Michael Malice (2:23:28.080)

Yes, it wasn't that.

Lex Fridman (2:23:30.800)

It was what you said in combination

Michael Malice (2:23:33.600)

with the sweetness everywhere else, the kindness.

Lex Fridman (2:23:37.460)

It's a very subtle thing,

Lex Fridman (2:23:38.960)

but like, it's like some of the deepest connection

Lex Fridman (2:23:41.960)

we have with others is when we like mock them lovingly.

Michael Malice (2:23:46.040)

Yes, correct.

Lex Fridman (2:23:46.940)

But like there is stuff, there's kindness around that.

Michael Malice (2:23:51.800)

Sometimes it's not in words,

Lex Fridman (2:23:53.000)

but in like subtle things.

Michael Malice (2:23:55.180)

Cause it creates an air of being familial.

Lex Fridman (2:23:58.760)

Like we're through this together.

Michael Malice (2:23:59.760)

Yeah, that's missing,

Lex Fridman (2:24:02.480)

that's very difficult to do on the internet.

Michael Malice (2:24:04.380)

I agree with you.

Lex Fridman (2:24:05.740)

I agree with you.

Michael Malice (2:24:06.580)

That's why my general approach on the internet

Lex Fridman (2:24:10.700)

is to be more like simple, less witty

Lex Fridman (2:24:15.240)

and more like dumbly loving.

Lex Fridman (2:24:19.320)

But that's not your core competency being witty.

Lex Fridman (2:24:23.080)

Uh, me?

Lex Fridman (2:24:25.280)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:24:26.280)

But I can be witty.

Lex Fridman (2:24:27.800)

You can be, but I'm saying that's not your core competency.

Michael Malice (2:24:29.760)

I'm not saying you're bad at it,

Lex Fridman (2:24:30.860)

but I'm saying that's not where you go like organically,

Michael Malice (2:24:34.600)

especially with strangers.

Lex Fridman (2:24:36.800)

I just feel like nobody's core competence on the internet

Michael Malice (2:24:40.200)

is I guess if you want to bring love to the world,

Lex Fridman (2:24:43.320)

nobody's core competence is given the current platforms,

Michael Malice (2:24:47.840)

nobody's core competence is wit.

Lex Fridman (2:24:50.360)

It's very difficult to be witty on the internet

Michael Malice (2:24:52.560)

without while still communicating kindness.

Lex Fridman (2:24:55.460)

Like in the same way that you can in physical space.

Michael Malice (2:24:59.520)

I'll give you another example.

Lex Fridman (2:25:00.400)

Someone came at me and they were like,

Michael Malice (2:25:03.920)

they gave me a donation.

Lex Fridman (2:25:04.880)

People do this all the time.

Lex Fridman (2:25:06.200)

And they go, oh, like I started reading your books

Lex Fridman (2:25:09.800)

cause of my wife and you know,

Michael Malice (2:25:11.480)

now watch your shows together, keep up the good work.

Lex Fridman (2:25:14.980)

And I go, what does her boyfriend think?

Lex Fridman (2:25:17.440)

So that is an example of wit and love

Lex Fridman (2:25:20.440)

because that person feels seen.

Michael Malice (2:25:23.000)

I'm acknowledging them.

Lex Fridman (2:25:24.320)

I'm also making a joke at their expense.

Michael Malice (2:25:25.880)

We know it's a joke.

Lex Fridman (2:25:27.280)

So I think language is often used in nonliteral ways

Michael Malice (2:25:31.960)

to cue emotional and connectivity.

Lex Fridman (2:25:34.100)

It's difficult, but what you've done

Michael Malice (2:25:37.060)

is difficult to accomplish, but you've done it well.

Lex Fridman (2:25:39.600)

I mean, you've been doing these live streams,

Michael Malice (2:25:43.320)

which are nice that people give you a bunch of money

Lex Fridman (2:25:45.200)

and donations and stuff.

Lex Fridman (2:25:46.440)

And then you, you'll often like make fun

Lex Fridman (2:25:49.040)

of certain aspects of their questions and so on,

Lex Fridman (2:25:51.040)

but it's always lovely.

Lex Fridman (2:25:52.200)

That's not from love.

Michael Malice (2:25:53.040)

That is genuine annoyance

Lex Fridman (2:25:53.880)

cause they ask me some really dumb questions.

Lex Fridman (2:25:54.700)

But they're still underlying, it's not even,

Lex Fridman (2:25:57.840)

like there's a kind person under that

Michael Malice (2:26:00.400)

that's being communicated.

Lex Fridman (2:26:02.280)

That's interesting.

Lex Fridman (2:26:03.120)

But I don't know if I get that from your Twitter.

Lex Fridman (2:26:05.640)

I know I get that from the video,

Michael Malice (2:26:07.520)

something about the face, something about like,

Lex Fridman (2:26:09.560)

Yeah, of course.

Michael Malice (2:26:10.400)

The physical presentation.

Lex Fridman (2:26:11.220)

The more data, the more easy it is

Michael Malice (2:26:13.440)

to convey emotion and subtlety.

Lex Fridman (2:26:15.160)

Absolutely, if you only have literally black and white

Michael Malice (2:26:17.200)

letters, it's going to be, or whatever,

Lex Fridman (2:26:19.000)

white and black, if you have night mode,

Michael Malice (2:26:20.640)

it's going to be a very different,

Lex Fridman (2:26:21.720)

it's much more limited information.

Michael Malice (2:26:23.640)

Yeah, but this is the fundamental thing is like,

Lex Fridman (2:26:27.720)

Here's another example.

Michael Malice (2:26:28.560)

Like if they had access to my face,

Lex Fridman (2:26:30.180)

like a lot of times some people don't know who I am

Lex Fridman (2:26:32.240)

and they come at me, call me a Nazi antisemite, right?

Lex Fridman (2:26:34.840)

And I start talking about the Jews

Lex Fridman (2:26:36.240)

and just how terrible the Jews are.

Lex Fridman (2:26:37.840)

Now all my audience knows I'm Jewish

Michael Malice (2:26:39.360)

that I went to yeshiva.

Lex Fridman (2:26:40.200)

So they're sitting there laughing

Michael Malice (2:26:41.480)

cause this person is making ass of themselves.

Lex Fridman (2:26:43.440)

That person has no idea.

Lex Fridman (2:26:44.880)

But if there was video, then they would be like,

Lex Fridman (2:26:47.440)

okay, wait a minute, something's up.

Michael Malice (2:26:48.760)

Yeah, something's up.

Lex Fridman (2:26:51.000)

I don't know.

Michael Malice (2:26:52.800)

I think it's entertaining.

Lex Fridman (2:26:53.760)

I think it's fun, but I just, I don't think it's scalable.

Lex Fridman (2:26:57.400)

And ultimately, I'm trying to figure out

Lex Fridman (2:27:00.240)

this whole trolling thing.

Michael Malice (2:27:01.960)

Cause I think it's really destructive.

Lex Fridman (2:27:04.780)

I've been the outrage mob, the outrage mobs,

Michael Malice (2:27:08.920)

just the dynamics of Twitter has been really bothering me.

Lex Fridman (2:27:12.640)

Okay.

Michael Malice (2:27:13.480)

I've been trying to figure out if we can try to build

Lex Fridman (2:27:18.120)

an alternative to Twitter perhaps

Michael Malice (2:27:19.800)

or try to encourage Twitter to be better,

Lex Fridman (2:27:22.140)

how to have nuanced, healthy conversations.

Michael Malice (2:27:25.720)

Like the reason I talk about love isn't just for love's sake.

Lex Fridman (2:27:28.840)

It's just a good base from which to have

Michael Malice (2:27:31.840)

difficult conversations.

Lex Fridman (2:27:33.020)

Like that's a good starting point.

Michael Malice (2:27:34.520)

Because if you start, like I would argue that

Lex Fridman (2:27:38.720)

the kind of conversation you have on Twitter is fun,

Lex Fridman (2:27:42.600)

but it might not be a good starting point

Lex Fridman (2:27:44.640)

for a difficult, nuanced conversation.

Michael Malice (2:27:46.640)

Well, I'm not interested in having

Lex Fridman (2:27:48.200)

those conversations with most people.

Michael Malice (2:27:49.800)

No, I know, but.

Lex Fridman (2:27:50.880)

So I agree with you.

Michael Malice (2:27:52.200)

Your point is valid.

Lex Fridman (2:27:53.080)

Yes, but like I'm saying, so if we were trying to have

Michael Malice (2:27:56.680)

a difficult, nuanced conversation

Lex Fridman (2:27:58.960)

about say race in America or policing,

Lex Fridman (2:28:02.320)

is there institutional racism of policing?

Lex Fridman (2:28:06.320)

Okay.

Michael Malice (2:28:07.160)

There's the only conversations that have been nuanced

Lex Fridman (2:28:10.800)

about it that I've heard is in the podcasting medium.

Michael Malice (2:28:13.680)

I agree with you.

Lex Fridman (2:28:14.520)

Which is the magic of podcasting, which is great.

Lex Fridman (2:28:17.000)

But that's the downside of podcasting

Lex Fridman (2:28:21.160)

is it's a very small number of people.

Michael Malice (2:28:24.200)

Even if it's in the thousands, it's still small.

Lex Fridman (2:28:27.680)

And then there's millions of people on social media

Lex Fridman (2:28:30.360)

and they're not having nuanced conversation at all.

Lex Fridman (2:28:32.920)

They're not capable of it.

Michael Malice (2:28:34.040)

That's the difference in your thoughts.

Lex Fridman (2:28:35.120)

They have no minds.

Michael Malice (2:28:35.960)

I believe they are.

Lex Fridman (2:28:36.800)

So that's the.

Michael Malice (2:28:37.620)

There's no data that shows this.

Lex Fridman (2:28:38.460)

Both of us aren't being not scientific.

Michael Malice (2:28:41.560)

You don't have data to support your world either.

Lex Fridman (2:28:43.400)

You're making the claim.

Michael Malice (2:28:45.640)

Well, you are too.

Lex Fridman (2:28:46.680)

No, I'm not.

Michael Malice (2:28:47.500)

If I'm looking at an object, the claim that it has in mind.

Lex Fridman (2:28:51.000)

Well.

Lex Fridman (2:28:53.080)

No, what?

Lex Fridman (2:28:54.660)

No, your claim is that people are fundamentally stupid.

Lex Fridman (2:28:58.120)

Are you a martial artist?

Lex Fridman (2:28:59.680)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (2:29:01.200)

How's it feel?

Lex Fridman (2:29:03.280)

I just judo on you.

Michael Malice (2:29:05.000)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:29:05.840)

But you really don't think people are deep down

Michael Malice (2:29:10.120)

like capable of being intelligent.

Lex Fridman (2:29:13.480)

No, not at all.

Michael Malice (2:29:14.880)

Not deep down, not surface.

Lex Fridman (2:29:16.000)

I'm not joking.

Michael Malice (2:29:16.840)

I'm not being tongue in cheek.

Lex Fridman (2:29:18.000)

I'm not being cynical.

Michael Malice (2:29:18.860)

I do not at all think they have this capacity.

Lex Fridman (2:29:22.320)

I'm gonna think.

Michael Malice (2:29:23.160)

Cause you're being so clear about it.

Lex Fridman (2:29:24.580)

You're not even.

Michael Malice (2:29:26.280)

I'm gonna have to think about that.

Lex Fridman (2:29:27.120)

You know why?

Michael Malice (2:29:27.960)

Here's evidence for my position, not proof.

Lex Fridman (2:29:31.400)

And this is of course data that is of little use,

Lex Fridman (2:29:33.740)

but it's of interest.

Lex Fridman (2:29:34.960)

A lot of times when you have an audience as big as mine

Lex Fridman (2:29:37.220)

and people come at you,

Lex Fridman (2:29:38.760)

not only will people say the same thing, the same concept,

Michael Malice (2:29:42.080)

they'll say the same concept in the same way.

Lex Fridman (2:29:44.360)

That is not a mind.

Michael Malice (2:29:46.740)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:29:47.580)

That's surface evidence.

Michael Malice (2:29:49.280)

You're saying this iceberg looks like this from the surface.

Lex Fridman (2:29:52.680)

I'm saying there's an iceberg there

Michael Malice (2:29:54.300)

that if challenged can rise to the occasion

Lex Fridman (2:30:01.400)

of deep thinking and you're saying.

Michael Malice (2:30:04.200)

Nope.

Lex Fridman (2:30:05.040)

Nope.

Michael Malice (2:30:05.960)

It's just frozen water.

Lex Fridman (2:30:08.680)

Isn't that the Russian expression?

Michael Malice (2:30:11.600)

That's ice cream.

Lex Fridman (2:30:12.840)

No, not.

Lex Fridman (2:30:14.600)

Doesn't it mean like no one's there?

Lex Fridman (2:30:17.360)

Actually, I don't know.

Michael Malice (2:30:18.180)

Yeah, it means like, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:30:19.800)

Yeah, it's like thought.

Michael Malice (2:30:20.880)

It means.

Lex Fridman (2:30:25.480)

Okay.

Michael Malice (2:30:26.320)

Well, so you're challenging me

Lex Fridman (2:30:28.360)

to be a little bit more rigorous.

Michael Malice (2:30:29.960)

I think I'll try.

Lex Fridman (2:30:30.800)

I'm not challenging you anything.

Michael Malice (2:30:31.920)

I'm just saying.

Lex Fridman (2:30:32.760)

No, not challenging me,

Lex Fridman (2:30:33.580)

but like I'm challenging myself based on what you're saying

Lex Fridman (2:30:35.720)

because I'd like to prove you wrong

Lex Fridman (2:30:37.900)

and find actual data to show you're wrong.

Lex Fridman (2:30:42.400)

And I think I can, but I would need to get that data.

Michael Malice (2:30:46.400)

That's funny you said, I think I can.

Lex Fridman (2:30:47.720)

When they were working on my biography, Ego and Hubris,

Michael Malice (2:30:50.700)

the title I had suggested was

Lex Fridman (2:30:52.200)

The Little Engine That Could But Shouldn't.

Lex Fridman (2:30:54.160)

And they didn't like it.

Lex Fridman (2:30:57.320)

I think that's a great title.

Michael Malice (2:30:58.600)

That's pretty good, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:31:00.160)

Speaking of biographies, I mean,

Michael Malice (2:31:01.720)

I read your book or listened to your book.

Lex Fridman (2:31:04.080)

Listened to.

Lex Fridman (2:31:04.920)

There's an audio book from you, right?

Lex Fridman (2:31:05.920)

Yeah, I did the audio, yeah.

Michael Malice (2:31:06.960)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:31:08.000)

You read it?

Michael Malice (2:31:08.920)

My Golis, yes.

Lex Fridman (2:31:10.160)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (2:31:11.000)

So this was a.

Lex Fridman (2:31:12.360)

I didn't do Yaron Brooks voice in the book.

Michael Malice (2:31:14.120)

I did all the different voices

Lex Fridman (2:31:15.160)

because he has a lisp

Lex Fridman (2:31:16.000)

and I didn't want to sound like I was making fun of him.

Lex Fridman (2:31:19.120)

Yeah, I don't remember you reading it,

Lex Fridman (2:31:21.540)

but I was really enjoyed it.

Lex Fridman (2:31:23.520)

No, okay.

Michael Malice (2:31:24.360)

It was good.

Lex Fridman (2:31:25.180)

It was like a year, a year and a half ago.

Michael Malice (2:31:26.240)

This I can prove.

Lex Fridman (2:31:27.380)

It's just.

Michael Malice (2:31:30.780)

Well, let me at a high level,

Lex Fridman (2:31:32.260)

see if you can pull this off.

Lex Fridman (2:31:33.660)

If I ask you, what's the book you write about?

Lex Fridman (2:31:38.920)

It's about a group of people

Michael Malice (2:31:42.740)

who are united solely by their opposition to progressivism,

Lex Fridman (2:31:46.740)

who have little else in common,

Lex Fridman (2:31:49.080)

but who are all frequently caricatured and dismissed

Lex Fridman (2:31:53.380)

by the larger establishment media.

Lex Fridman (2:31:56.400)

But you give this kind of story of how it came to be.

Lex Fridman (2:32:00.220)

Sure.

Lex Fridman (2:32:01.060)

And to me, like we're talking about trolls,

Lex Fridman (2:32:03.540)

but the internet side of things is quite interesting.

Lex Fridman (2:32:06.860)

So first of all, how does alt right connect?

Lex Fridman (2:32:10.020)

So the alt right is the subset of the new right,

Michael Malice (2:32:13.960)

which feels that race, not racism,

Lex Fridman (2:32:16.780)

is the most or one of the most important

Michael Malice (2:32:19.620)

socio political issues.

Lex Fridman (2:32:21.200)

Are any of those folks like part of the mainstream

Lex Fridman (2:32:27.240)

or worth paying attention to?

Lex Fridman (2:32:29.240)

None of them are part of the mainstream.

Michael Malice (2:32:30.420)

The alt right, by definition,

Lex Fridman (2:32:32.220)

they would be part of the mainstream.

Michael Malice (2:32:33.800)

They would not be part of them.

Lex Fridman (2:32:34.920)

No, they would not.

Michael Malice (2:32:36.160)

I don't know that any of them.

Lex Fridman (2:32:38.640)

Well, worth is not a position.

Michael Malice (2:32:40.000)

I'm not in a position to say worth.

Lex Fridman (2:32:41.840)

I would say that it is of use

Michael Malice (2:32:45.360)

to be familiar with their arguments

Lex Fridman (2:32:48.200)

because to dismiss any school of thought,

Michael Malice (2:32:51.320)

especially one that has historically gained leverage,

Lex Fridman (2:32:54.680)

especially one that has historically gained leverage

Michael Malice (2:32:57.020)

in very dark ways, especially in America,

Lex Fridman (2:32:59.520)

in Europe and other places,

Michael Malice (2:33:01.200)

just to say, oh, they're racist.

Lex Fridman (2:33:03.080)

I don't need to think about them.

Michael Malice (2:33:04.340)

It doesn't behoove you.

Lex Fridman (2:33:07.220)

So what lessons do we draw from the 4chan side of things,

Lex Fridman (2:33:13.400)

like the internet side of the movement?

Lex Fridman (2:33:16.200)

Tits or get the fuck out.

Lex Fridman (2:33:19.000)

Can you define every single word in there?

Lex Fridman (2:33:21.120)

Tits or breasts or get the fuck out.

Michael Malice (2:33:24.080)

That's from 4chan.

Lex Fridman (2:33:25.520)

Okay, what's it mean?

Michael Malice (2:33:28.160)

Oh, sometimes like a woman will appear in 4chan

Lex Fridman (2:33:29.960)

and they'll just reply, tits or get the fuck out.

Michael Malice (2:33:34.480)

I'm trying to understand what that,

Lex Fridman (2:33:35.640)

oh, oh, that's a way.

Michael Malice (2:33:41.400)

I just, very slow.

Lex Fridman (2:33:44.360)

Oh, so that's, okay, so that's very disrespectful

Michael Malice (2:33:47.680)

towards female members of the community.

Lex Fridman (2:33:52.520)

I don't understand.

Michael Malice (2:33:53.600)

There's rules to this community

Lex Fridman (2:33:55.080)

and one of them is we're not very good with women.

Lex Fridman (2:33:58.760)

Is that, that's one of the rules?

Lex Fridman (2:33:59.600)

It's more of a principle than a rule.

Lex Fridman (2:34:02.280)

It's a principle?

Lex Fridman (2:34:04.080)

We're not going to ever get laid.

Michael Malice (2:34:06.240)

That's fundamentally the principle.

Lex Fridman (2:34:07.900)

Is there other principles?

Lex Fridman (2:34:08.740)

But we are gonna get pics.

Lex Fridman (2:34:10.240)

Pics.

Michael Malice (2:34:11.080)

Sometimes.

Lex Fridman (2:34:11.900)

Sometimes on the internet.

Michael Malice (2:34:12.740)

Sometimes they GTFO.

Lex Fridman (2:34:15.120)

Okay, so is there other actual principles of,

Lex Fridman (2:34:19.960)

so like it's, from my maybe naive perspective

Lex Fridman (2:34:24.360)

is they have like the darkest aspects of trolling,

Michael Malice (2:34:26.660)

which is like take nothing serious,

Lex Fridman (2:34:28.780)

make a game out of everything.

Michael Malice (2:34:30.440)

That's not 4chan per se.

Lex Fridman (2:34:31.840)

One of the things that you will learn in 4chan,

Michael Malice (2:34:34.200)

which I think is very healthy,

Lex Fridman (2:34:35.880)

is if you have an idiosocratic or unique worldview

Michael Malice (2:34:39.500)

or focus on an aspect of history or culture,

Lex Fridman (2:34:42.020)

you'll be able to find like minded people

Michael Malice (2:34:43.760)

who you will engage with you and discuss it

Lex Fridman (2:34:45.400)

without being preemptively dismissive.

Michael Malice (2:34:49.000)

That's an ideal that they.

Lex Fridman (2:34:51.000)

Well, it's not ideal.

Michael Malice (2:34:51.840)

It's something that happens a lot.

Lex Fridman (2:34:52.840)

Now 4chan's not really,

Michael Malice (2:34:53.880)

like Paul is their board with politics,

Lex Fridman (2:34:56.480)

but they will get into some,

Michael Malice (2:34:59.000)

like the people there are much more erudite than you'd think.

Lex Fridman (2:35:01.880)

So they do take,

Michael Malice (2:35:03.080)

my perception was they take nothing seriously.

Lex Fridman (2:35:05.260)

So there's things that they take seriously,

Michael Malice (2:35:07.360)

like discussing ideas.

Lex Fridman (2:35:08.640)

I'll give you one example.

Michael Malice (2:35:09.620)

There was a video someone posted

Lex Fridman (2:35:11.280)

of a girl who put kittens in a bag

Lex Fridman (2:35:13.200)

and threw it in a river.

Lex Fridman (2:35:14.420)

And they found out where she was within a day

Lex Fridman (2:35:16.080)

and got her like arrested.

Lex Fridman (2:35:17.500)

So yeah, they do take some things very seriously.

Michael Malice (2:35:20.960)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (2:35:21.800)

But that's like an extreme that,

Michael Malice (2:35:24.200)

I mean, that's good.

Lex Fridman (2:35:25.080)

First of all, that's heartwarming

Michael Malice (2:35:26.200)

that they wouldn't somehow turn that into a thing.

Lex Fridman (2:35:29.440)

That feels like more of a, what is it?

Lex Fridman (2:35:31.780)

What's the other one?

Lex Fridman (2:35:32.620)

8chan?

Michael Malice (2:35:33.440)

8chan's twice as good as 4chan, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:35:36.020)

That's their slogan.

Lex Fridman (2:35:38.240)

But it feels like they're the kind of community

Lex Fridman (2:35:40.500)

that would take that kitten situation

Lex Fridman (2:35:43.520)

and make a mockery of it.

Lex Fridman (2:35:45.080)

Yeah, they're darker than 4chan.

Michael Malice (2:35:47.440)

I don't even, I'm not allowed to talk about 16chan.

Lex Fridman (2:35:51.320)

I'm already overwhelmed clearly by 4chan lingo.

Michael Malice (2:35:57.000)

I literally wrote down in my notes,

Lex Fridman (2:36:00.960)

like in doing research for this conversation,

Michael Malice (2:36:04.400)

I learned the word pleb.

Lex Fridman (2:36:06.920)

And I wanted to ask you what this pleb means.

Lex Fridman (2:36:09.440)

Do you know what pleb means?

Lex Fridman (2:36:10.480)

No.

Michael Malice (2:36:13.480)

I saw, I mean, actually, no, I don't.

Lex Fridman (2:36:16.280)

You know what a pleb is?

Michael Malice (2:36:17.720)

I just, I don't know what a pleb is.

Lex Fridman (2:36:20.080)

Like a plebiscite or plebeian.

Michael Malice (2:36:22.300)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (2:36:23.140)

But does it mean something more sophisticated?

Michael Malice (2:36:27.080)

No, it's a very unsophisticated mechanism

Lex Fridman (2:36:29.060)

of being dismissive.

Michael Malice (2:36:30.700)

Of like the regular people.

Lex Fridman (2:36:32.760)

Yeah, or someone who comes at me on Twitter.

Michael Malice (2:36:35.300)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (2:36:36.140)

All right, so back to the 4chan alt right.

Michael Malice (2:36:39.360)

Wasn't the...

Lex Fridman (2:36:40.400)

Those are very different concepts.

Michael Malice (2:36:41.720)

Don't conflate them.

Lex Fridman (2:36:43.560)

But which internet culture was the alt right born out of?

Michael Malice (2:36:48.720)

Well, alt right was more born of blogs.

Lex Fridman (2:36:51.180)

And people had different blogs that were posting

Lex Fridman (2:36:53.440)

what they call like racial realism,

Lex Fridman (2:36:55.080)

which is scientific racism, so called.

Lex Fridman (2:36:57.520)

And breaking down issues from a racialist perspective.

Lex Fridman (2:37:00.440)

So that wasn't, 4chan is much more dynamic.

Michael Malice (2:37:03.760)

It's a message board.

Lex Fridman (2:37:04.760)

It's very fluid.

Lex Fridman (2:37:06.600)

So it doesn't lend itself

Lex Fridman (2:37:08.040)

to these kind of in depth analysis of ideas or history.

Lex Fridman (2:37:11.560)

But it spreads them.

Lex Fridman (2:37:12.800)

Like it...

Michael Malice (2:37:13.640)

It spreads them as memes, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:37:15.200)

And you know, but...

Lex Fridman (2:37:16.360)

But it's not an essential mechanism

Lex Fridman (2:37:18.520)

of the alt right, historically?

Michael Malice (2:37:20.800)

No, no, no, no, no, no.

Lex Fridman (2:37:22.320)

So it was mostly about blogs.

Michael Malice (2:37:24.160)

Okay, so what do you make of the psychology

Lex Fridman (2:37:28.040)

of this kind of worldview?

Michael Malice (2:37:29.600)

When you have...

Lex Fridman (2:37:30.440)

This goes to your conspiracy theory subject earlier.

Michael Malice (2:37:33.840)

When you have a little bit of knowledge about something,

Lex Fridman (2:37:36.460)

about history that no one's talking about,

Lex Fridman (2:37:39.000)

and there's only one group that is talking about it,

Lex Fridman (2:37:42.160)

and you have no alternative answers,

Michael Malice (2:37:45.340)

you're going to be drawn to that group.

Lex Fridman (2:37:47.300)

So because issues about race, anti semitism, homophobia

Michael Malice (2:37:51.600)

are so taboo in our culture,

Lex Fridman (2:37:53.880)

understandably there's good reasons.

Michael Malice (2:37:55.320)

If you start putting things like,

Lex Fridman (2:37:56.560)

how old should you be to have sex with kids

Lex Fridman (2:37:58.680)

and just have regular conversations,

Lex Fridman (2:38:00.120)

eventually some people are gonna start

Michael Malice (2:38:01.280)

taking some positions you don't like.

Lex Fridman (2:38:02.520)

So some things have to be sanctified to some extent.

Michael Malice (2:38:04.600)

They're the only ones talking about it.

Lex Fridman (2:38:06.440)

You're gonna be drawn to that subculture.

Lex Fridman (2:38:10.640)

And where does the alt right stand now?

Lex Fridman (2:38:13.080)

I mean, I hear that term used...

Lex Fridman (2:38:15.360)

So the term has been weaponized by the corporate press

Lex Fridman (2:38:18.320)

for people that they want to read out of society.

Lex Fridman (2:38:22.440)

So it's used both on individual levels,

Lex Fridman (2:38:24.320)

like people like Gavin McIngus, Milo Yiannopoulos,

Michael Malice (2:38:27.360)

some others.

Lex Fridman (2:38:28.760)

I mean, I think they've referred to Trump as alt right.

Lex Fridman (2:38:31.780)

And it's become a slur, just like incel or bot,

Lex Fridman (2:38:36.600)

that has become largely removed from its original meaning.

Lex Fridman (2:38:39.720)

Do you have a sense that there's still a movement

Lex Fridman (2:38:41.840)

that's alt right or like...

Michael Malice (2:38:43.000)

Yeah, they call themselves now...

Lex Fridman (2:38:44.440)

Okay, so there's something called the dissonant right.

Lex Fridman (2:38:47.440)

And they say, we're completely not like the alt right

Lex Fridman (2:38:49.720)

because the alt right's A, B, and C, and we're B, C, D.

Michael Malice (2:38:53.180)

There's a huge overlap.

Lex Fridman (2:38:54.420)

It's very much the same people.

Michael Malice (2:38:57.000)

Is there intellectuals that still represent

Lex Fridman (2:38:59.200)

some aspect of the movement?

Michael Malice (2:39:01.360)

I mean, sure.

Lex Fridman (2:39:02.400)

Are you tracking this?

Michael Malice (2:39:03.240)

Not that much anymore.

Lex Fridman (2:39:05.200)

I think they're...

Michael Malice (2:39:06.920)

I don't find it particularly as...

Lex Fridman (2:39:10.360)

Now that the book's done,

Michael Malice (2:39:12.240)

I'm looking more into history for my next book.

Lex Fridman (2:39:15.840)

You mentioned communism?

Michael Malice (2:39:16.920)

I'm gonna talk a lot about the Cold War.

Lex Fridman (2:39:19.620)

So this kind of stuff has largely fallen away

Michael Malice (2:39:22.040)

from my radar to some extent.

Lex Fridman (2:39:24.000)

And it's been a very effective movement

Michael Malice (2:39:27.080)

to get them marginalized and silenced.

Lex Fridman (2:39:29.720)

So they're not as deep of a concern

Michael Malice (2:39:32.920)

in terms of concern or not,

Lex Fridman (2:39:34.520)

just their impact on society.

Michael Malice (2:39:36.480)

Yes, it's much lessened, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:39:38.440)

So as a troll on Twitter, in the best sense of the word,

Lex Fridman (2:39:42.220)

what do you make of cancel culture?

Lex Fridman (2:39:45.960)

I think it's Maoism.

Michael Malice (2:39:47.400)

I mean, corporate America has done a far better job

Lex Fridman (2:39:50.160)

of implementing Maoism than the communist party ever could.

Michael Malice (2:39:52.640)

You had this meeting not that long ago

Lex Fridman (2:39:54.320)

from I think it was Northwestern University Law School

Michael Malice (2:39:56.520)

where everyone on the call got up

Lex Fridman (2:39:57.920)

and said that they were racist.

Michael Malice (2:39:59.420)

I mean, this is something that legally

Lex Fridman (2:40:01.160)

you should be very averse to saying,

Michael Malice (2:40:02.920)

even if it were true.

Lex Fridman (2:40:04.240)

And it's this kind of concept of getting up

Lex Fridman (2:40:06.500)

and confessing your sins before the collective

Lex Fridman (2:40:08.780)

is something completely.

Lex Fridman (2:40:12.200)

Oh, sorry, they admitted this of themselves?

Lex Fridman (2:40:14.160)

Yeah, they were like,

Michael Malice (2:40:15.080)

because they're saying because they're white,

Lex Fridman (2:40:16.200)

they're inherently racist.

Lex Fridman (2:40:17.040)

So my name's John, I'm a racist.

Lex Fridman (2:40:18.560)

My name's this, I'm a racist.

Michael Malice (2:40:20.360)

You hear it and you're like, okay, this is Looney Tunes.

Lex Fridman (2:40:22.720)

So you're saying that, wow, that's so much,

Michael Malice (2:40:25.240)

you took a step further.

Lex Fridman (2:40:26.440)

So you're saying there's like a deep underlying force

Michael Malice (2:40:30.040)

that cancels culture.

Lex Fridman (2:40:31.720)

It's not just some kind of mob.

Michael Malice (2:40:33.560)

Well, it's not a mob at all.

Lex Fridman (2:40:35.060)

It's a systemic organized movement being used

Michael Malice (2:40:40.720)

for very nefarious purposes

Lex Fridman (2:40:42.320)

and to dominate an entire nation.

Lex Fridman (2:40:45.160)

How do we fight it?

Lex Fridman (2:40:46.120)

Because I sense it inside.

Michael Malice (2:40:48.520)

You know, I used to defend academia more

Lex Fridman (2:40:51.520)

because I still do to some extent.

Michael Malice (2:40:58.480)

It's a nuanced discussion because, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:41:02.000)

like folks like Jordan Peterson

Lex Fridman (2:41:03.840)

and a lot of people that kind of attack academia,

Lex Fridman (2:41:06.800)

they refer, they really are talking about gender studies

Michael Malice (2:41:10.220)

at certain departments.

Lex Fridman (2:41:11.280)

And me from MIT, you know,

Michael Malice (2:41:13.960)

it's the University of Science and Engineering

Lex Fridman (2:41:15.820)

and the faculty there really don't think

Michael Malice (2:41:20.820)

about these issues or haven't traditionally thought of,

Lex Fridman (2:41:24.060)

but it's beginning to even infiltrate there.

Michael Malice (2:41:26.260)

It's the, you know, it's starting to infiltrate engineering

Lex Fridman (2:41:30.700)

and sciences outside of biology.

Michael Malice (2:41:32.500)

Like let's put biology with the gender studies.

Lex Fridman (2:41:35.360)

Like I'm talking about sciences

Michael Malice (2:41:36.980)

that really don't have anything to do with gender.

Lex Fridman (2:41:40.140)

It's starting to infiltrate and it worries me.

Michael Malice (2:41:45.580)

I don't know exactly why,

Lex Fridman (2:41:46.700)

like I don't know exactly what the negative effect

Michael Malice (2:41:49.560)

there would be, except it feels like it's anti intellectual.

Lex Fridman (2:41:55.780)

Oh yes, of course.

Lex Fridman (2:41:57.340)

And I'm not sure what to,

Lex Fridman (2:41:59.020)

because on the surface,

Michael Malice (2:42:02.260)

it feels like a path towards progress.

Lex Fridman (2:42:05.340)

At first, when I'm like zoomed out, you know,

Michael Malice (2:42:08.740)

just like squinting my eyes, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:42:11.700)

not even in detail looking at things,

Lex Fridman (2:42:13.940)

but when I actually joined the conversation

Lex Fridman (2:42:15.780)

to like listen in the conversation on quote unquote diversity,

Michael Malice (2:42:20.320)

it quickly makes me realize

Lex Fridman (2:42:23.820)

that there's no interest in making a better world.

Michael Malice (2:42:29.900)

No, no, it's about domination.

Lex Fridman (2:42:31.340)

It's about getting, yeah.

Michael Malice (2:42:33.500)

It's a way for, if you are a lowest status white person,

Lex Fridman (2:42:37.780)

using anti racism is the only mechanism you will have

Michael Malice (2:42:41.080)

to feel superior to another human being.

Lex Fridman (2:42:43.380)

So it's very useful for them in terms of fighting it.

Michael Malice (2:42:48.160)

One of my suggestions has been to seize

Lex Fridman (2:42:50.500)

all university endowments,

Michael Malice (2:42:51.980)

which are the crystallization of privilege

Lex Fridman (2:42:54.140)

and distribute that money as reparations.

Lex Fridman (2:42:56.660)

So be very effective by turning two populations

Lex Fridman (2:42:59.040)

against each other and strongly diminishing

Michael Malice (2:43:01.360)

the university's intellectual hegemony.

Lex Fridman (2:43:04.260)

The universities are absolutely the real villains

Michael Malice (2:43:07.020)

in the picture.

Lex Fridman (2:43:08.000)

Thankfully, they're also the least prepared

Michael Malice (2:43:10.180)

to be aggressed upon.

Lex Fridman (2:43:12.140)

And after the government and the corporate press,

Michael Malice (2:43:15.460)

they are the last leg of the stool,

Lex Fridman (2:43:17.320)

and they don't know what's coming,

Lex Fridman (2:43:18.460)

and it's gonna get ugly, and I cannot wait.

Lex Fridman (2:43:21.380)

So this is where you and I disagree.

Michael Malice (2:43:22.900)

Part one, yeah, we disagree in the sense

Lex Fridman (2:43:25.740)

that you want to dismantle broken institutions.

Michael Malice (2:43:30.800)

I don't think they're broken.

Lex Fridman (2:43:31.640)

They're powerful.

Michael Malice (2:43:32.460)

They're working like by design.

Lex Fridman (2:43:33.300)

I think for over 100 years,

Michael Malice (2:43:34.940)

they have been talking about bringing

Lex Fridman (2:43:36.820)

the next generation of American leaders,

Michael Malice (2:43:38.700)

which is code, for promulgating an ideology

Lex Fridman (2:43:42.340)

based on egalitarian principles and world domination.

Michael Malice (2:43:47.540)

Let me try to express my lived experience.

Lex Fridman (2:43:50.180)

Okay, sure.

Michael Malice (2:43:51.900)

My experience at MIT is that there's a bunch

Lex Fridman (2:43:56.460)

of administrators that are, the bureaucracy,

Michael Malice (2:44:00.300)

that I can say, this is the nice thing

Lex Fridman (2:44:03.980)

about having a podcast, I don't give a damn,

Michael Malice (2:44:06.100)

is they're pretty useless.

Lex Fridman (2:44:07.540)

In fact, they get in the way.

Lex Fridman (2:44:09.380)

But there's faculty, there's professors,

Lex Fridman (2:44:12.480)

that are incredible.

Michael Malice (2:44:15.140)

They're incredible human beings

Lex Fridman (2:44:16.580)

that all they do all day, they're too busy,

Lex Fridman (2:44:20.580)

but for the most part, what they do all day

Lex Fridman (2:44:23.660)

is just like continually pursue different

Michael Malice (2:44:26.940)

little trajectories of curiosities

Lex Fridman (2:44:29.580)

in the various avenues of science that they work on.

Lex Fridman (2:44:33.100)

And as a side effect of that, they mentor

Lex Fridman (2:44:38.140)

a group of students, sometimes a large group of students,

Lex Fridman (2:44:40.740)

and also teach courses, and they're constantly

Lex Fridman (2:44:43.300)

sharing their passion with others.

Lex Fridman (2:44:45.900)

And my experience is it's just a bunch of people

Lex Fridman (2:44:49.220)

who are curious about engineering and math

Lex Fridman (2:44:52.160)

and science, chemistry, artificial intelligence,

Lex Fridman (2:44:55.060)

computer science, what I'm most familiar with.

Lex Fridman (2:44:57.700)

And there's never this feeling of MIT

Lex Fridman (2:45:01.220)

being broken somehow, like this kind of feeling.

Michael Malice (2:45:04.700)

Like if I talk to you just now, or like Eric Weinstein,

Lex Fridman (2:45:08.300)

there's a feeling like stuff is on fire, right?

Michael Malice (2:45:11.540)

There's something deeply broken.

Lex Fridman (2:45:13.900)

But when I'm in the system, especially before the COVID,

Michael Malice (2:45:19.020)

before this kind of tension, everything was great.

Lex Fridman (2:45:22.680)

There was no discussion of, even diversity,

Michael Malice (2:45:25.360)

all that kind of stuff, the toxic stuff

Lex Fridman (2:45:28.100)

that we might be talking about right now,

Michael Malice (2:45:30.020)

none of that was happening.

Lex Fridman (2:45:30.960)

There was a bunch of people just in love with cool ideas,

Michael Malice (2:45:35.060)

exploring ideas, being curious, and learning,

Lex Fridman (2:45:37.300)

and all that kind of stuff.

Lex Fridman (2:45:38.540)

So I don't, my sense of academia was this is the place

Lex Fridman (2:45:43.380)

where kids in their 20s, 30s, and 40s can continue

Michael Malice (2:45:47.860)

the playground of science, having fun.

Lex Fridman (2:45:50.740)

It's, if you destroy academia, if you destroy universities,

Michael Malice (2:45:54.100)

like you're suggesting kind of lessening their power,

Lex Fridman (2:45:58.100)

you take away the playground from these kids

Michael Malice (2:46:00.180)

to play.

Lex Fridman (2:46:01.860)

It's gonna be hard for you to tell me

Michael Malice (2:46:03.500)

that I'm anti playground.

Lex Fridman (2:46:05.020)

Yeah, well, I guess I'm saying you're anti

Michael Malice (2:46:07.100)

certain kinds of playgrounds, which is.

Lex Fridman (2:46:08.980)

Yeah, the ones that have the broken glass on the floor.

Michael Malice (2:46:10.820)

Yeah, I am against those kinds of playgrounds.

Lex Fridman (2:46:14.220)

No, you're, you're, you're.

Michael Malice (2:46:18.060)

Yes. Nope.

Lex Fridman (2:46:18.900)

See, see.

Michael Malice (2:46:19.740)

Now you see, now you listen.

Lex Fridman (2:46:21.460)

Now you, now you wait.

Michael Malice (2:46:22.940)

Yeah, I would say you're being the watchful mother who,

Lex Fridman (2:46:27.460)

the one kid who hurt themselves in the glass.

Michael Malice (2:46:29.860)

One kid, it's an entire, it's generation after generation.

Lex Fridman (2:46:32.420)

I'm not a watchful mother.

Michael Malice (2:46:33.260)

I'm the guy with the flamethrower.

Lex Fridman (2:46:34.660)

No, I, I, I understand that.

Lex Fridman (2:46:37.780)

But you're using the one kid who was always kind of like

Lex Fridman (2:46:41.220)

weird, aka gender studies department.

Michael Malice (2:46:44.180)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (2:46:45.020)

That, that hurt themselves on the glass,

Michael Malice (2:46:47.340)

as opposed to the people who are like,

Lex Fridman (2:46:49.220)

obviously having fun in the playground and not playing

Michael Malice (2:46:53.900)

by the glass, the broken glass.

Lex Fridman (2:46:55.580)

And they're just, I mean, to me,

Michael Malice (2:46:57.960)

some of the best innovations in science

Lex Fridman (2:47:00.180)

happen in universities.

Michael Malice (2:47:02.060)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (2:47:02.900)

You can't forget that universities don't have this

Michael Malice (2:47:07.020)

liberal, like politics literally in every conversation

Lex Fridman (2:47:13.100)

until this year, until this year,

Michael Malice (2:47:15.180)

there's something happening.

Lex Fridman (2:47:16.500)

But every conversation I've ever had had nothing to do

Michael Malice (2:47:19.420)

with politics.

Lex Fridman (2:47:20.260)

We never, Trump never came up.

Michael Malice (2:47:22.220)

None of that ever come up.

Lex Fridman (2:47:23.840)

Nothing.

Michael Malice (2:47:24.680)

Like all this kind of idea that there's liberal, all that.

Lex Fridman (2:47:27.340)

But that, that's in the humanities.

Michael Malice (2:47:29.820)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:47:30.660)

But do you think MIT, Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Lex Fridman (2:47:33.460)

might be a little bit of an outlier?

Lex Fridman (2:47:34.740)

Yeah, that probably is.

Michael Malice (2:47:35.900)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:47:36.740)

But I, I don't, I honestly don't think when people

Michael Malice (2:47:40.540)

criticize academia, they're looking at,

Lex Fridman (2:47:43.860)

they're in fact also picking the outliers,

Michael Malice (2:47:46.700)

which is they're picking some of the quote unquote

Lex Fridman (2:47:49.460)

strongest gender studies departments.

Michael Malice (2:47:51.300)

This is nonsensical.

Lex Fridman (2:47:52.140)

When I was at Bucknell, it was a college student.

Michael Malice (2:47:55.060)

We had to take, you know, we had a bunch of electives

Lex Fridman (2:47:57.580)

and I wanted to take a class on individual,

Michael Malice (2:47:59.500)

American individualism.

Lex Fridman (2:48:01.140)

One of the texts of the five that we had to read

Michael Malice (2:48:04.440)

was Birth of a Nation, the movie about the Klan.

Lex Fridman (2:48:08.300)

So there's no department where these people

Michael Malice (2:48:12.720)

are not thoroughgoing, hardcore ideologues.

Lex Fridman (2:48:17.400)

This is not a gender.

Michael Malice (2:48:18.240)

That's the humanities, that's the humanities.

Lex Fridman (2:48:19.340)

Fine, all the humanities, not just gender studies.

Michael Malice (2:48:21.940)

Okay, fine.

Lex Fridman (2:48:22.780)

I can give you.

Michael Malice (2:48:23.620)

Theory, English, all of them, every university,

Lex Fridman (2:48:27.100)

as you know, has it mandatory in the curriculum

Michael Malice (2:48:31.620)

they have to take a bunch of these propaganda classes.

Lex Fridman (2:48:35.700)

I look forward to YouTube comments

Michael Malice (2:48:37.580)

because you're being more eloquent

Lex Fridman (2:48:39.680)

and you're speaking to the thing

Michael Malice (2:48:40.940)

that a lot of people agree with

Lex Fridman (2:48:42.340)

and I'm being my usual slow self

Lex Fridman (2:48:44.220)

and people are going to say not very nice things about me.

Lex Fridman (2:48:46.980)

Don't say anything that nice about Lex, please.

Michael Malice (2:48:50.100)

Let me try to just.

Lex Fridman (2:48:51.020)

Just shoot up a school.

Michael Malice (2:48:52.940)

That would be preferable.

Lex Fridman (2:48:54.380)

There he goes again.

Michael Malice (2:48:55.720)

Only the teachers.

Lex Fridman (2:48:56.560)

Going to the darkest possible place.

Michael Malice (2:48:58.300)

That's sunshine, baby, schools.

Lex Fridman (2:48:59.700)

That's where everyone goes to be happy, playgrounds.

Michael Malice (2:49:01.620)

There he goes, dark ear.

Lex Fridman (2:49:04.360)

Just dives right in, just go dark

Lex Fridman (2:49:07.500)

and then just comes back up to the surface.

Lex Fridman (2:49:10.620)

I don't have to feel this way anymore.

Michael Malice (2:49:13.300)

Just one day in the world.

Lex Fridman (2:49:18.340)

You're probably a figment of my imagination.

Michael Malice (2:49:19.920)

I'm not even having this podcast.

Lex Fridman (2:49:21.260)

Well, after 18 Red Bulls, I'm surprised

Michael Malice (2:49:23.140)

you could see anything.

Lex Fridman (2:49:24.580)

This is like Fight Club.

Michael Malice (2:49:25.580)

Red Bull gives you delirium.

Lex Fridman (2:49:27.020)

Yeah.

Michael Malice (2:49:29.500)

I got into it with Ed Norton yesterday on Twitter.

Lex Fridman (2:49:32.360)

Oh, really?

Michael Malice (2:49:33.200)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:49:34.020)

Is he like the rest of the celebrities?

Michael Malice (2:49:35.940)

Yeah, he's like, oh, this is an existential threat

Lex Fridman (2:49:38.060)

to America, Trump's a fascist.

Michael Malice (2:49:39.540)

He's delegitimizing the Oval Office.

Lex Fridman (2:49:41.340)

I said, what an odd endorsement of Trump.

Michael Malice (2:49:44.220)

Well, you should have went with a bad pit.

Lex Fridman (2:49:45.620)

He might have a different opinion.

Michael Malice (2:49:46.980)

That's true.

Lex Fridman (2:49:47.820)

So Fight Club reference, okay.

Michael Malice (2:49:49.980)

This conversation is over.

Lex Fridman (2:49:52.620)

It's interesting.

Michael Malice (2:49:53.460)

I'd like to draw a line between science and engineering

Lex Fridman (2:49:56.020)

and science not including like the biological aspect,

Michael Malice (2:50:00.860)

the parts of biology that touch

Lex Fridman (2:50:03.620)

and humanities and biology.

Michael Malice (2:50:04.980)

Like I feel because humanities,

Lex Fridman (2:50:08.060)

if you just look at the percentage of universities,

Michael Malice (2:50:10.720)

it's still a minority percentage.

Lex Fridman (2:50:13.520)

And I would actually draw a different,

Michael Malice (2:50:16.260)

I think they serve very different purposes.

Lex Fridman (2:50:18.340)

Sure.

Lex Fridman (2:50:19.180)

And that's actually a broken part about universities

Lex Fridman (2:50:22.340)

about like, why is some of the best research

Lex Fridman (2:50:27.060)

in the world done at universities?

Lex Fridman (2:50:28.300)

That doesn't, like there might be a different,

Michael Malice (2:50:31.340)

like MIT, it feels weird that a faculty.

Lex Fridman (2:50:34.540)

Yeah, these are conceptually different things.

Michael Malice (2:50:35.900)

Like we do research and we teach,

Lex Fridman (2:50:37.160)

why is this the same diagram?

Michael Malice (2:50:38.000)

Yeah, it feels weird.

Lex Fridman (2:50:38.900)

But that's just, but I'm also,

Michael Malice (2:50:40.860)

I'm coming to like the defense of the engineers

Lex Fridman (2:50:44.680)

that never talk about,

Michael Malice (2:50:45.980)

I'm not like, my mind isn't,

Lex Fridman (2:50:49.260)

I'm not like deluded or something

Michael Malice (2:50:51.000)

where I'm not seeing the house on fire.

Lex Fridman (2:50:53.940)

I'm just saying, I am seeing the house

Michael Malice (2:50:55.780)

because I also lived in Harvard Square.

Lex Fridman (2:50:57.320)

I'm seeing Harvard, but in.

Lex Fridman (2:50:59.580)

And you see the tanks coming?

Lex Fridman (2:51:00.740)

They're coming, Lex.

Michael Malice (2:51:01.660)

They're coming.

Lex Fridman (2:51:02.500)

It's gonna be so beautiful.

Michael Malice (2:51:03.340)

It'll be like the American beauty, the plastic bag.

Lex Fridman (2:51:06.140)

I just won't be able to stop crying

Michael Malice (2:51:07.260)

because it'll be so beautiful.

Lex Fridman (2:51:08.180)

Yeah, I can already see it.

Lex Fridman (2:51:11.220)

But the engineering departments where like,

Lex Fridman (2:51:14.620)

I believe that the Elon Musk's of the world,

Michael Malice (2:51:18.100)

that the, like the innovation

Lex Fridman (2:51:20.660)

that will make a better world is happening.

Lex Fridman (2:51:22.980)

And like, let's not burn that down.

Lex Fridman (2:51:25.200)

Cause that has nothing to do with any,

Michael Malice (2:51:27.280)

like they're all like sitting quietly

Lex Fridman (2:51:29.260)

in the, while like, while the humanities

Lex Fridman (2:51:32.740)

and all these kinds of diversity programs,

Lex Fridman (2:51:34.180)

they're not having any of these discussions.

Michael Malice (2:51:36.700)

Listen, my Soviet brother, you both know,

Lex Fridman (2:51:39.180)

we both know that ice water runs in our veins.

Lex Fridman (2:51:41.460)

So if you're calling for mercy,

Lex Fridman (2:51:42.820)

that is not how I'm wired,

Lex Fridman (2:51:44.420)

but I'm not closing the door.

Lex Fridman (2:51:46.500)

Yeah, I'm actually realizing now,

Lex Fridman (2:51:48.540)

so for people listening to this,

Lex Fridman (2:51:50.660)

I'll probably prepend this in saying that

Michael Malice (2:51:52.660)

I'm even slower than usual.

Lex Fridman (2:51:54.940)

I didn't sleep last night,

Lex Fridman (2:51:56.540)

but I feel I'm actually realizing just how slow I am

Lex Fridman (2:52:00.820)

and how much preparation I need to do.

Lex Fridman (2:52:03.100)

And if I would like to defend aspects of academia,

Lex Fridman (2:52:06.740)

I better come prepared.

Michael Malice (2:52:08.500)

I don't think you need to defend them.

Lex Fridman (2:52:09.680)

I think I'm granting you your premise freely.

Michael Malice (2:52:12.600)

No, you might be.

Lex Fridman (2:52:13.620)

Okay.

Michael Malice (2:52:14.540)

I don't think the world is.

Lex Fridman (2:52:16.340)

But actually you just defeat your own argument

Michael Malice (2:52:18.420)

because it is not at all have to be the way

Lex Fridman (2:52:21.540)

that a phenomenal research institution like MIT,

Michael Malice (2:52:24.580)

which no one disputes,

Lex Fridman (2:52:25.940)

has to also be an educational establishment.

Michael Malice (2:52:28.740)

These two things are not at all necessarily interconnected.

Lex Fridman (2:52:32.140)

But then you have to offer a way to separate.

Michael Malice (2:52:34.580)

Correct.

Lex Fridman (2:52:35.420)

But like, I'm not a big fan, everybody's different,

Lex Fridman (2:52:38.940)

but I'm not a fan of criticizing institutions

Lex Fridman (2:52:41.100)

without offering a way to change.

Lex Fridman (2:52:43.340)

And especially when I'm like, have ability to change,

Lex Fridman (2:52:46.060)

I'd like to, yeah, I'd like to offer a path.

Michael Malice (2:52:49.300)

Like.

Lex Fridman (2:52:50.140)

What if they were in students, they were all mentor,

Lex Fridman (2:52:51.700)

like, what's the opposite of a mentor?

Lex Fridman (2:52:55.940)

Mentee.

Lex Fridman (2:52:56.780)

Protege?

Lex Fridman (2:52:57.600)

What's the term when you like.

Michael Malice (2:52:58.440)

Graduate students.

Lex Fridman (2:52:59.280)

When you work at a place, like interns,

Michael Malice (2:53:01.300)

not an intern, it's not the word I'm thinking of.

Lex Fridman (2:53:02.860)

But anyway, like basically they're working there

Michael Malice (2:53:04.900)

instead of going to college there.

Lex Fridman (2:53:06.660)

It's possible, but it's going against tradition.

Lex Fridman (2:53:08.820)

And so you have to build new institutions and.

Lex Fridman (2:53:11.780)

And have these engineers building new things, that's crazy.

Michael Malice (2:53:15.100)

These research engineers,

Lex Fridman (2:53:16.420)

where they're going to be building things.

Michael Malice (2:53:18.980)

Well, one of the things, cause you're kind of a.

Lex Fridman (2:53:21.300)

Apprentice, that's the word I was looking at.

Michael Malice (2:53:22.600)

Apprentice.

Lex Fridman (2:53:23.440)

Which is ironic, we're talking about Trump

Lex Fridman (2:53:24.620)

and we couldn't think of the word apprentice.

Lex Fridman (2:53:26.740)

Yeah, well done.

Michael Malice (2:53:28.260)

We should both be fired.

Lex Fridman (2:53:29.100)

You're fired.

Michael Malice (2:53:29.940)

Yeah, there you go.

Lex Fridman (2:53:31.780)

These Russian Jews, so quick with their wit.

Michael Malice (2:53:34.480)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (2:53:35.320)

But the thing is, you're a fan of freedom.

Michael Malice (2:53:37.700)

I am.

Lex Fridman (2:53:38.940)

And there is intellectual freedom.

Michael Malice (2:53:42.260)

People, this is what I was trying to articulate,

Lex Fridman (2:53:45.180)

I'm failing to articulate,

Lex Fridman (2:53:47.100)

but there truly is complete intellectual freedom

Lex Fridman (2:53:50.260)

within universities on topics of science and engineering.

Michael Malice (2:53:56.100)

I believe you, I agree with you.

Lex Fridman (2:53:57.980)

I don't think it's going to take much persuasion,

Lex Fridman (2:53:59.540)

but I'll give you an example.

Lex Fridman (2:54:01.460)

When that, I'm sure you know more details about this

Michael Malice (2:54:04.620)

than I do.

Lex Fridman (2:54:05.560)

When that scientist engineered that probe

Michael Malice (2:54:09.580)

to land on that comet,

Lex Fridman (2:54:11.740)

and the articles are written

Michael Malice (2:54:12.980)

because this Hawaiian shirt he was wearing

Lex Fridman (2:54:15.240)

had like pinup girls on it,

Michael Malice (2:54:16.380)

which I think his female student sewed for him

Lex Fridman (2:54:18.380)

or something, or his ex girlfriend.

Lex Fridman (2:54:19.820)

And he had to apologize.

Lex Fridman (2:54:21.600)

This is what Rand was talking about.

Michael Malice (2:54:23.620)

That the great accomplishments of men

Lex Fridman (2:54:26.440)

have to say I'm sorry to the lowest,

Michael Malice (2:54:29.260)

most despicable, disgusting people.

Lex Fridman (2:54:32.420)

Yeah, I don't know.

Michael Malice (2:54:34.240)

Let me bring this case up because I think about this.

Lex Fridman (2:54:37.860)

This might not mean much to you,

Lex Fridman (2:54:39.060)

but it means a lot to certain aspects

Lex Fridman (2:54:41.140)

of the computer science community.

Michael Malice (2:54:42.540)

There's a guy named Richard Stallman.

Lex Fridman (2:54:44.740)

I don't know if you know who that is.

Michael Malice (2:54:46.980)

He's the founder of the Free Software Foundation.

Lex Fridman (2:54:51.280)

He's like a big Linux.

Michael Malice (2:54:52.260)

He's one of the key people

Lex Fridman (2:54:53.340)

in the history of computer science,

Lex Fridman (2:54:54.900)

one of those open source people, right?

Lex Fridman (2:54:56.800)

But he is like, I believe he's one of the hardcore ones,

Michael Malice (2:55:00.260)

which is like all software should be free.

Lex Fridman (2:55:02.740)

Okay, so it's very interesting personality,

Michael Malice (2:55:05.360)

very key person in the GNU,

Lex Fridman (2:55:07.260)

just like Linus Torvald, key person.

Michael Malice (2:55:10.160)

So, but he also kind of speaks his mind.

Lex Fridman (2:55:13.500)

And on a certain chain of conversations at MIT

Michael Malice (2:55:20.100)

that was leaked to the New York Times,

Lex Fridman (2:55:22.300)

then it was published, led him to be fired

Michael Malice (2:55:26.460)

or pushed out of MIT recently, maybe a year ago.

Lex Fridman (2:55:30.660)

And it always sat weird with me.

Lex Fridman (2:55:32.740)

So what happened is there's a few undergraduate students

Lex Fridman (2:55:38.860)

that called Marvin Minsky.

Michael Malice (2:55:41.220)

Not sure if you're familiar with who that is.

Lex Fridman (2:55:42.700)

I've heard the name.

Michael Malice (2:55:43.540)

He's one of the seminal people in artificial intelligence.

Lex Fridman (2:55:46.460)

They said that they called him a rapist

Michael Malice (2:55:49.960)

because he met with Jeffrey Epstein.

Lex Fridman (2:55:53.020)

And Jeffrey Epstein solicited,

Michael Malice (2:55:58.180)

these are the best facts known to me

Lex Fridman (2:55:59.980)

that I'm aware of, that's what was stated on the chain,

Michael Malice (2:56:02.820)

is he solicited a 17,

Lex Fridman (2:56:04.740)

but it might've been an 18 year old girl,

Michael Malice (2:56:07.020)

to come up to Marvin Minsky

Lex Fridman (2:56:09.160)

and ask him if he wanted to have sex with her.

Lex Fridman (2:56:13.580)

So Jeffrey Epstein told the girl.

Lex Fridman (2:56:16.800)

She came up to Marvin Minsky,

Michael Malice (2:56:18.140)

who was at that time, I think, seven years old.

Lex Fridman (2:56:20.680)

And his wife was there too, Marvin Minsky's wife.

Lex Fridman (2:56:23.220)

And he said no, or like awkwardly saying no thanks.

Lex Fridman (2:56:28.220)

And that was stated in the email thread

Michael Malice (2:56:34.420)

as Marvin participating in sexual assault

Lex Fridman (2:56:39.460)

and rape of this unwilling sexual assault.

Lex Fridman (2:56:43.460)

And it was called rape of this person, right?

Lex Fridman (2:56:47.460)

Of this woman that propositioned him.

Lex Fridman (2:56:50.500)

And then Richard Stallman, who's, he's kind of known for this.

Lex Fridman (2:56:55.500)

He's very, he's, you make fun of me being a robot,

Lex Fridman (2:56:59.220)

but he's kind of like a debugger.

Lex Fridman (2:57:01.140)

He's like, well, that sentence is not,

Lex Fridman (2:57:03.140)

what you said is not correct.

Lex Fridman (2:57:05.300)

So he like corrected the person,

Michael Malice (2:57:08.540)

basically made it seem like the use of the word rape

Lex Fridman (2:57:13.760)

is not correct, because that's not the definition of rape.

Lex Fridman (2:57:16.660)

And then he was attacked for saying,

Lex Fridman (2:57:19.140)

oh, now you're playing with definitions of rape.

Lex Fridman (2:57:21.100)

Rape is rape is the answer, right?

Lex Fridman (2:57:23.780)

And then that was leaked in him defending.

Lex Fridman (2:57:27.220)

So the way it was leaked,

Lex Fridman (2:57:28.460)

it was reported as him defending rape.

Michael Malice (2:57:35.260)

That's the way it was reported.

Lex Fridman (2:57:36.940)

And he was pushed out and he didn't really give a damn.

Michael Malice (2:57:40.940)

It's, he doesn't seem to make a big deal out of it.

Lex Fridman (2:57:44.420)

He just left.

Michael Malice (2:57:45.260)

He made an example of him.

Lex Fridman (2:57:46.460)

They made an example and that,

Lex Fridman (2:57:48.020)

and that everyone was afraid to defend him.

Lex Fridman (2:57:51.700)

So like, there's a bunch of faculty.

Michael Malice (2:57:53.220)

One.

Lex Fridman (2:57:54.060)

Dude, you're from the Soviet Union.

Lex Fridman (2:57:54.880)

Doesn't this hit close to home for you?

Lex Fridman (2:57:58.540)

I don't know what to think of it.

Michael Malice (2:57:59.580)

It hits close to home, but it was basically,

Lex Fridman (2:58:03.100)

at least at MIT, now MIT is such a light place with this.

Michael Malice (2:58:06.660)

It's not common at MIT,

Lex Fridman (2:58:08.460)

but it was like 18, 19 year old kids,

Michael Malice (2:58:11.100)

undergraduate kids with this kind of fire in them.

Lex Fridman (2:58:14.380)

There's just very few of them,

Lex Fridman (2:58:15.920)

but they're the ones that raise all this kind of fuss.

Lex Fridman (2:58:19.140)

And the entirety of the administration,

Michael Malice (2:58:23.060)

all the faculty are afraid to stand up to them.

Lex Fridman (2:58:26.740)

It's so interesting to me.

Michael Malice (2:58:28.320)

Like, I don't know if I should be afraid of that.

Lex Fridman (2:58:31.860)

You don't think you should be afraid

Michael Malice (2:58:32.980)

that someone who's trying to be specific

Lex Fridman (2:58:34.900)

when it comes to charges of violent assault

Michael Malice (2:58:37.260)

is looking for that clarity,

Lex Fridman (2:58:38.620)

can get their life out of search of his room?

Michael Malice (2:58:40.660)

Let me give you more context.

Lex Fridman (2:58:43.420)

There's a little bit more context to Richard Stallman,

Michael Malice (2:58:46.020)

which is.

Lex Fridman (2:58:46.860)

He was also a rapist.

Michael Malice (2:58:47.700)

No.

Lex Fridman (2:58:49.260)

I left out that part.

Michael Malice (2:58:50.100)

He liked raping people.

Lex Fridman (2:58:51.100)

But he's had a history through his life

Michael Malice (2:58:55.900)

of every once in a while wearing the Hawaiian shirt with,

Lex Fridman (2:59:00.020)

like he would make.

Michael Malice (2:59:01.220)

He's a fat.

Lex Fridman (2:59:04.180)

Sorry, but he's a fat unattractive.

Michael Malice (2:59:06.940)

Like what Trump referred to the hacker.

Lex Fridman (2:59:08.780)

Yeah, yeah, the guy in the basement.

Michael Malice (2:59:11.220)

That's Richard.

Lex Fridman (2:59:12.060)

Okay, I love.

Michael Malice (2:59:14.560)

He is what he is.

Lex Fridman (2:59:16.420)

He like, he would eat his own.

Michael Malice (2:59:18.420)

He would pick skin from his feet in lectures

Lex Fridman (2:59:20.780)

and just eat it.

Michael Malice (2:59:21.620)

No.

Lex Fridman (2:59:22.460)

Okay, yeah.

Michael Malice (2:59:23.280)

Those videos of him doing that.

Lex Fridman (2:59:24.660)

I'm not joking.

Michael Malice (2:59:25.500)

He must really be behind the spectrum then.

Lex Fridman (2:59:26.920)

Yeah, okay.

Michael Malice (2:59:27.760)

Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:59:28.980)

And you know,

Michael Malice (2:59:32.220)

I think in his office,

Lex Fridman (2:59:36.140)

door, he wrote something like

Michael Malice (2:59:41.080)

hacker plus lover of ladies or something like that.

Lex Fridman (2:59:45.820)

Like something kind of.

Michael Malice (2:59:47.500)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:59:48.940)

Unprofessional.

Michael Malice (2:59:50.140)

Yeah, unprofessional.

Lex Fridman (2:59:50.980)

And a little creepy.

Michael Malice (2:59:51.940)

Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:59:52.780)

No, that's fair.

Lex Fridman (2:59:53.600)

So he was also.

Lex Fridman (2:59:54.440)

So they're looking for an excuse to get rid of him,

Michael Malice (2:59:56.580)

it sounds like.

Lex Fridman (2:59:58.020)

No, he was just, who's they?

Lex Fridman (30:02.080)

So if you don't like it, you move.

Lex Fridman (30:04.520)

Okay, just to put some, I don't like words and terms.

Michael Malice (30:08.280)

One, one, one, zero, one, one, one, zero, one.

Lex Fridman (30:09.680)

Yeah, exactly.

Lex Fridman (30:10.520)

Is that what your language is?

Lex Fridman (30:11.600)

It is, I'm translating it all in real time.

Lex Fridman (30:14.520)

But would you call the kind of ideas

Lex Fridman (30:18.120)

that you're advocating for

Lex Fridman (30:19.960)

and we're talking about anarchy?

Lex Fridman (30:21.560)

Yes, anarchism, yes.

Michael Malice (30:23.300)

Okay, so let's get into it.

Lex Fridman (30:24.560)

Can you try to paint the utopia

Lex Fridman (30:29.640)

that an anarchist worldview dreams about?

Lex Fridman (30:33.600)

The only people who describe anarchism as utopia

Michael Malice (30:36.240)

are its critics.

Lex Fridman (30:37.520)

If I told you right now,

Lex Fridman (30:39.620)

and I wish I could say this factually,

Lex Fridman (30:41.240)

that I have a cure for cancer,

Michael Malice (30:42.880)

that would not make us a utopia.

Lex Fridman (30:45.200)

That would still probably be expensive.

Michael Malice (30:47.280)

We would still have many other diseases.

Lex Fridman (30:49.000)

However, we would be fundamentally healthier,

Michael Malice (30:51.880)

happier and better off, all of us.

Lex Fridman (30:55.000)

Than democracy.

Michael Malice (30:56.080)

So, sorry, I jumped back from the cancer.

Lex Fridman (30:58.680)

No, than democracy or government.

Lex Fridman (31:00.640)

So it's only curing one major,

Lex Fridman (31:03.640)

major life threatening problem,

Lex Fridman (31:05.560)

but in no sense is it a utopia.

Lex Fridman (31:08.120)

So what, can we try to answer this question,

Michael Malice (31:12.120)

same question many times,

Lex Fridman (31:13.640)

which is what exactly is the problem with democracy?

Michael Malice (31:17.640)

The problem with democracy is that those who need leaders

Lex Fridman (31:19.960)

are not qualified to choose them.

Michael Malice (31:22.640)

Those who need leaders are not qualified to choose them.

Lex Fridman (31:28.160)

So.

Michael Malice (31:29.080)

That's the central problem with democracy.

Lex Fridman (31:30.560)

Not all of us need leaders.

Michael Malice (31:32.400)

Right.

Lex Fridman (31:33.240)

So, what does it mean to need a leader?

Michael Malice (31:38.600)

Are you saying like people who are actually

Lex Fridman (31:41.360)

like free thinkers don't need leaders kind of thing?

Michael Malice (31:44.240)

Sure.

Lex Fridman (31:45.480)

That's a good way of working.

Lex Fridman (31:46.520)

But like, you don't, okay.

Lex Fridman (31:47.880)

So do you acknowledge that there's some value

Lex Fridman (31:51.920)

in authority in different subjects?

Lex Fridman (31:56.000)

So what that means is,

Michael Malice (31:57.880)

I don't mean authority, somebody who's in control of you,

Lex Fridman (32:00.080)

but.

Lex Fridman (32:00.920)

But you're doing the definition switch.

Lex Fridman (32:04.120)

Because.

Michael Malice (32:04.960)

I am, I am.

Lex Fridman (32:05.800)

You're right, you're right.

Michael Malice (32:06.640)

It's unfair.

Lex Fridman (32:07.480)

Okay, that was bad.

Lex Fridman (32:08.320)

But that's what they do.

Lex Fridman (32:09.160)

That's their trick.

Michael Malice (32:10.040)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (32:10.880)

And this is one of the useful things,

Michael Malice (32:12.240)

by the way, that's this total sidebar.

Lex Fridman (32:14.080)

If people ask me for advice,

Michael Malice (32:15.480)

I always tell them if you're gonna raise your kids,

Lex Fridman (32:17.000)

raise them bilingual.

Michael Malice (32:18.680)

Because I was trilingual by the time I was six

Lex Fridman (32:20.800)

and that teaches you to think in concepts.

Michael Malice (32:23.080)

Whereas if you only know one language,

Lex Fridman (32:24.680)

you fall for things like this,

Michael Malice (32:26.120)

because using authority in the sense of a policeman

Lex Fridman (32:28.560)

and someone has authority in physics,

Michael Malice (32:30.480)

it's the same word.

Lex Fridman (32:31.560)

Conceptually, they're extremely different.

Lex Fridman (32:33.520)

But if you're only thinking in one language,

Lex Fridman (32:35.480)

your brain is going to equate the two.

Lex Fridman (32:37.680)

And that's a trap that people

Lex Fridman (32:38.960)

who only speak one language have.

Michael Malice (32:40.240)

For sure.

Lex Fridman (32:41.080)

But even if you know multiple languages,

Michael Malice (32:42.800)

you can still use the trick of using

Lex Fridman (32:44.520)

the worst of your convenience.

Michael Malice (32:45.680)

Yeah, absolutely.

Lex Fridman (32:46.520)

To manipulate the conversation.

Lex Fridman (32:48.080)

But you weren't trying to do that,

Lex Fridman (32:49.320)

but you fell into that.

Michael Malice (32:50.240)

I accidentally did it.

Lex Fridman (32:51.240)

Yeah, you're right.

Michael Malice (32:52.080)

We all tend to do that if you only speak one language

Lex Fridman (32:53.960)

and think in one language.

Lex Fridman (32:55.000)

But if, I guess let me rephrase it.

Lex Fridman (32:57.600)

Are you against, do you acknowledge the value

Michael Malice (33:02.360)

of offloading your own effort

Lex Fridman (33:07.040)

about a particular thing to somebody else?

Michael Malice (33:09.280)

Absolutely.

Lex Fridman (33:10.120)

Like an accountant, a lawyer, a doctor,

Michael Malice (33:12.880)

absolute, a chef, infinite.

Lex Fridman (33:15.080)

Isn't that ultimately what a democracy is?

Michael Malice (33:18.560)

No.

Lex Fridman (33:19.400)

Broadly defined, like you're basically electing

Michael Malice (33:21.600)

a bunch of authorities.

Lex Fridman (33:22.920)

Using the word you in two senses.

Michael Malice (33:25.080)

Using the word you meaning me as an individual,

Lex Fridman (33:26.840)

not using you as a mass.

Michael Malice (33:29.040)

Yeah, as a mass, not you as an individual.

Lex Fridman (33:31.520)

Right, so I would absolutely want someone

Michael Malice (33:34.240)

to provide for my security.

Lex Fridman (33:35.680)

I would absolutely want someone to negotiate with me

Michael Malice (33:38.160)

for foreign power or something like that.

Lex Fridman (33:39.840)

That does not mean it has to be predicated

Lex Fridman (33:42.440)

and what lots of other people who I do not know

Lex Fridman (33:44.680)

and if I do know them, probably would not respect,

Michael Malice (33:47.280)

think about.

Lex Fridman (33:48.160)

It's of no moral relevance to me.

Michael Malice (33:51.600)

Nor I to them.

Lex Fridman (33:52.760)

So do you think this kind of,

Michael Malice (33:54.240)

there could be a bunch of humans that behave

Lex Fridman (33:57.840)

kind of like ants in a distributed way.

Michael Malice (34:01.440)

There could be an emergent behavior in them

Lex Fridman (34:04.880)

that results in a stable society.

Michael Malice (34:06.960)

Like isn't that the hope with anarchy

Lex Fridman (34:09.040)

is like without an overarching.

Lex Fridman (34:13.320)

But ants, I mean ants are the worst example here

Lex Fridman (34:15.600)

because ants have a very firm authority.

Lex Fridman (34:17.720)

The queen?

Lex Fridman (34:18.560)

Yeah, and they're all drones.

Michael Malice (34:20.560)

They're all clones of each other.

Lex Fridman (34:22.360)

Yeah, but so if you forget the queen,

Michael Malice (34:24.880)

their behavior, they're all,

Lex Fridman (34:27.600)

well from your perspective,

Michael Malice (34:28.960)

from your human intelligent perspective,

Lex Fridman (34:30.760)

but from their perspective,

Michael Malice (34:31.800)

they probably see each other as a bunch of individuals.

Lex Fridman (34:33.920)

No they don't.

Michael Malice (34:34.760)

Ants are very big on altruism

Lex Fridman (34:36.800)

in the sense of self sacrifice.

Michael Malice (34:40.880)

They do not think the individual matters.

Lex Fridman (34:42.440)

They routinely kill themselves

Michael Malice (34:44.800)

for the sake of the hive in the community.

Lex Fridman (34:46.840)

But they, see that's from the outside perspective,

Michael Malice (34:49.280)

from the individual perspective of the individual,

Lex Fridman (34:51.560)

they probably, they don't see it as altruism.

Michael Malice (34:57.600)

Right, but they view and they're right

Lex Fridman (35:00.360)

because the ants life is very ephemeral and cheap,

Michael Malice (35:02.760)

that it's more important to continue this mass population

Lex Fridman (35:06.240)

that one individual ant live.

Michael Malice (35:08.720)

Like bees are another even better example.

Lex Fridman (35:10.600)

The honeybee, when they sting,

Michael Malice (35:12.040)

they only sting once and they die.

Lex Fridman (35:13.720)

And they do it gladly because it's like,

Michael Malice (35:15.440)

okay, this community is much more important than me

Lex Fridman (35:18.160)

and they're right.

Michael Malice (35:19.840)

Yeah, okay, so fine, let's forget.

Lex Fridman (35:22.280)

I'm being pedantic, but it's important, I think.

Michael Malice (35:24.440)

I'm not just being pedantic

Lex Fridman (35:25.440)

for the sake of being pedantic.

Lex Fridman (35:26.480)

But there's something beautiful that I won't argue about

Lex Fridman (35:29.360)

because I do, there's an interesting point there

Michael Malice (35:31.920)

about individualism of ants.

Lex Fridman (35:33.400)

I do think they're more individual.

Lex Fridman (35:35.160)

But let's give your view of ants that they're communists.

Lex Fridman (35:40.200)

Okay, let's go with the communist view of ants.

Michael Malice (35:42.680)

Okay, yeah.

Lex Fridman (35:44.440)

But they're still a beautiful emergent thing,

Michael Malice (35:46.880)

which is like they can function as a society

Lex Fridman (35:51.320)

and without, I would say, centralized control.

Michael Malice (35:57.800)

Yeah, I agree with you.

Lex Fridman (35:58.640)

It's another argument.

Lex Fridman (35:59.480)

So is that the hope for anarchy?

Lex Fridman (36:01.040)

It's like you just throw a bunch of people

Michael Malice (36:03.200)

that voluntarily wanna be in the same place

Lex Fridman (36:05.520)

under the same set of ideas

Lex Fridman (36:06.880)

and they kind of, like the doctors emerge,

Lex Fridman (36:10.400)

the police officers emerge,

Michael Malice (36:12.600)

the different necessary structures

Lex Fridman (36:15.160)

of a functional society emerge.

Lex Fridman (36:17.000)

Do you know what the most beautiful example of anarchism is

Lex Fridman (36:20.640)

that is just beyond beautiful

Lex Fridman (36:22.520)

when you stop to think about it?

Lex Fridman (36:23.360)

I'll see Twitter.

Michael Malice (36:24.240)

I'm not being tongue in cheek.

Lex Fridman (36:25.400)

Okay.

Michael Malice (36:26.240)

Language.

Lex Fridman (36:28.040)

There's infinite languages.

Michael Malice (36:29.720)

Language, the things that language can be used for

Lex Fridman (36:33.040)

are bring tears to people's eyes quite literally.

Michael Malice (36:36.240)

It's also used for basic things.

Lex Fridman (36:38.960)

No one is forcing us.

Michael Malice (36:40.200)

We speak two languages each at least.

Lex Fridman (36:42.640)

No one's forcing us to use English.

Michael Malice (36:44.440)

No one's forcing us to use this dialect of English.

Lex Fridman (36:47.800)

It's a way, and despite there being

Lex Fridman (36:50.920)

so many different languages, lingua franca emerge,

Lex Fridman (36:54.760)

the language that everyone is, Latin.

Michael Malice (36:56.600)

Even in North Korea, they refer to the fish

Lex Fridman (36:59.080)

and the different animals by the Latin scientific note.

Michael Malice (37:02.600)

No one decided this.

Lex Fridman (37:03.800)

Sure, there's an organization

Michael Malice (37:05.240)

that sets a binomial nomenclature,

Lex Fridman (37:07.280)

but there's no gun to anyone's head

Michael Malice (37:08.920)

referring to a sea moth as a Pegasus species.

Lex Fridman (37:13.480)

And when you think about how amazing language is,

Lex Fridman (37:16.880)

and in some other context would say like,

Lex Fridman (37:18.840)

well, you need to have a world government

Lex Fridman (37:21.320)

and they're deciding which is the verbs

Lex Fridman (37:23.240)

and you have to have an official definition

Lex Fridman (37:25.120)

and an official dictionary.

Lex Fridman (37:26.720)

And none of that's happened.

Lex Fridman (37:28.120)

And I think anyone, even if they don't agree

Lex Fridman (37:30.520)

with my politics or my worldview,

Michael Malice (37:32.840)

cannot deny that the creation of language

Lex Fridman (37:35.800)

is one of humanity's most miraculous,

Michael Malice (37:39.080)

beautiful achievements.

Lex Fridman (37:40.760)

Absolutely.

Lex Fridman (37:41.600)

So there you go.

Lex Fridman (37:42.440)

There's one system where a kind of anarchy

Michael Malice (37:45.960)

can result in beauty, stability,

Lex Fridman (37:49.560)

like sufficient stability,

Lex Fridman (37:50.920)

and yet, flexibility to adjust it and so on.

Lex Fridman (37:55.680)

And the internet helps it.

Michael Malice (37:57.680)

You get something like Urban Dictionary,

Lex Fridman (38:00.440)

which starts creating absurd, both humor and wit.

Lex Fridman (38:05.120)

But also language and syntax and jargon,

Lex Fridman (38:07.360)

immediately you size people up.

Michael Malice (38:09.240)

If you say vertebral, I know you're a doctor,

Lex Fridman (38:12.080)

because that's how they pronounce it, the spinal column.

Michael Malice (38:15.080)

I'm sure in your field, there's certain jargon

Lex Fridman (38:17.200)

and right away you can know if this person's one of us

Michael Malice (38:18.840)

or not.

Lex Fridman (38:19.680)

I mean, it's infinite.

Michael Malice (38:20.840)

I mean, I don't need to tell you.

Lex Fridman (38:22.280)

It's emojis too.

Michael Malice (38:23.480)

Yes, there's so much there to study with language.

Lex Fridman (38:25.640)

It's fascinating.

Lex Fridman (38:26.480)

But do you think this applies to human life?

Lex Fridman (38:30.320)

The meat space, the physical space?

Michael Malice (38:32.160)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (38:33.000)

So that kind of beauty can emerge

Michael Malice (38:35.480)

without writing stuff on paper, without laws.

Lex Fridman (38:40.040)

You could have rules.

Michael Malice (38:40.880)

You don't need, they don't have to be laws.

Lex Fridman (38:43.280)

So.

Michael Malice (38:44.120)

Enforced by violence.

Lex Fridman (38:45.680)

Like that's what, what's a law?

Michael Malice (38:48.160)

A law is something that is unchosen.

Lex Fridman (38:50.160)

A rule is something.

Michael Malice (38:51.000)

If I go to my pool, you know,

Lex Fridman (38:52.920)

I sign up to be a member of pool,

Michael Malice (38:55.000)

on the wall there's certain things.

Lex Fridman (38:56.400)

It's like, you know, certain number of people in the pool.

Michael Malice (38:59.000)

No peeing in here.

Lex Fridman (39:00.080)

Good luck enforcing that one.

Lex Fridman (39:02.000)

And so on and so forth.

Lex Fridman (39:03.080)

Well, that's the problem.

Lex Fridman (39:04.080)

Aren't you afraid that people are gonna pee in the pool?

Lex Fridman (39:06.920)

That's not as my big concern as mass incarceration,

Michael Malice (39:10.920)

as the fact that the police can steal more money

Lex Fridman (39:13.240)

than burglars can.

Michael Malice (39:14.480)

The fact that innocent people can be killed

Lex Fridman (39:16.560)

with no consequences.

Michael Malice (39:18.240)

The fact that war can be waged

Lex Fridman (39:20.320)

and with no consequences for those who waged it.

Michael Malice (39:24.640)

The fact that so many men and women are being murdered

Lex Fridman (39:27.000)

overseas and here,

Lex Fridman (39:28.360)

and the people who are guiding these are regarded as heroic.

Lex Fridman (39:31.120)

So you think there might,

Michael Malice (39:32.040)

that in an anarchist system,

Lex Fridman (39:34.480)

there's a possibility of having less wars

Lex Fridman (39:38.600)

and less, what would you say, corruption

Lex Fridman (39:42.400)

and less abuse of power?

Michael Malice (39:44.680)

Let's talk, yes.

Lex Fridman (39:45.640)

And let's talk about corruption

Michael Malice (39:47.080)

because, and I made this point on Rogan,

Lex Fridman (39:49.880)

you and I, again, the Russian background,

Michael Malice (39:51.960)

we realize that when it comes to corruption,

Lex Fridman (39:55.160)

American is very naive.

Michael Malice (39:56.880)

Corruption they think is, oh, I got my brother a job

Lex Fridman (39:58.960)

and he's getting money on the table.

Michael Malice (3:00:00.700)

The administration.

Lex Fridman (3:00:02.700)

Yeah, probably, probably.

Michael Malice (3:00:04.060)

A lot of times what people don't realize,

Lex Fridman (3:00:06.020)

and this would be my defense of cancel culture.

Michael Malice (3:00:08.580)

A lot of times when someone gets fired

Lex Fridman (3:00:10.140)

over something like this, this isn't why.

Michael Malice (3:00:12.260)

This is just giving them cover to get rid of them

Lex Fridman (3:00:14.540)

without getting a lawsuit.

Michael Malice (3:00:15.620)

Yeah, but it's still.

Lex Fridman (3:00:17.660)

Right, so I think, I guess what I'm trying to communicate

Michael Malice (3:00:21.460)

is he was a little weird and creepy

Lex Fridman (3:00:23.500)

and he may not be the best for the community,

Lex Fridman (3:00:27.380)

but that's not necessarily the message it's sent

Lex Fridman (3:00:30.460)

to the rest of the community.

Michael Malice (3:00:31.780)

The message is sent to the rest of the community

Lex Fridman (3:00:34.340)

that being clear about words

Michael Malice (3:00:37.020)

or the usage of the word rape

Lex Fridman (3:00:39.180)

is like you should call everything rape.

Michael Malice (3:00:41.940)

That's basically the message it was sent.

Lex Fridman (3:00:44.500)

Or you should call it we say rape, rape.

Michael Malice (3:00:46.880)

It's about submission.

Lex Fridman (3:00:48.380)

I think you'd be very happy to know

Michael Malice (3:00:50.580)

that there's a lot of people,

Lex Fridman (3:00:52.060)

and she's very crucified of this,

Michael Malice (3:00:53.340)

like Betsy DeVos, the performance department of education,

Lex Fridman (3:00:56.060)

who are aware of this.

Michael Malice (3:00:58.140)

They are aware that this completely contradicts due process.

Lex Fridman (3:01:01.520)

They're aware of how a rape accusation

Michael Malice (3:01:03.740)

is something not to be taken seriously,

Lex Fridman (3:01:05.560)

but because it's not to be taken seriously,

Michael Malice (3:01:07.180)

it has to be also taken seriously in the other context

Lex Fridman (3:01:09.460)

that once that word is around a male,

Michael Malice (3:01:12.060)

this can ruin his entire life.

Lex Fridman (3:01:13.700)

That's the sticky thing of the word.

Michael Malice (3:01:17.380)

Like I, like I think about this a lot that,

Lex Fridman (3:01:24.860)

like how would I defend it if somebody,

Michael Malice (3:01:26.540)

like I've never, I can honestly say

Lex Fridman (3:01:28.260)

I've never done anything close to creepy in my life

Michael Malice (3:01:32.500)

like with women.

Lex Fridman (3:01:34.860)

But you wouldn't know it if you had, right?

Michael Malice (3:01:36.460)

That's the thing.

Lex Fridman (3:01:37.300)

A lot of these creepy guys don't think they're creepy.

Michael Malice (3:01:39.120)

They think they're being cute.

Lex Fridman (3:01:40.940)

Yeah, but I'm just telling you,

Michael Malice (3:01:42.020)

even like, fine, let's say, right,

Lex Fridman (3:01:45.860)

let's say I'm not aware of it.

Lex Fridman (3:01:47.180)

But the point that I am aware of

Lex Fridman (3:01:50.060)

is that somebody could just completely make something up.

Michael Malice (3:01:52.580)

Correct, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.

Lex Fridman (3:01:54.180)

And like how, what would I?

Michael Malice (3:01:55.820)

No, he denied the charges.

Lex Fridman (3:01:57.340)

There's an article around everything he did, supposedly,

Lex Fridman (3:01:59.540)

and it goes, Mr. Friedman denied the charges, yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:02:02.620)

But what creeps me out?

Lex Fridman (3:02:04.340)

That happened, can I interrupt?

Lex Fridman (3:02:05.420)

Zora Neale Hurston is one of my favorite writers.

Michael Malice (3:02:07.420)

She's from the Harlem Renaissance.

Lex Fridman (3:02:09.780)

She wrote, Their Eyes Are Watching God,

Lex Fridman (3:02:11.420)

and a couple of other books.

Lex Fridman (3:02:12.460)

She was just an amazing, amazing figure.

Michael Malice (3:02:14.300)

Her biography is called Wrapped in Rainbows.

Lex Fridman (3:02:16.680)

It's just a masterpiece.

Michael Malice (3:02:17.800)

I think I read it one day.

Lex Fridman (3:02:18.780)

Can't recommend her enough.

Michael Malice (3:02:19.780)

Fascinating, fascinating woman.

Lex Fridman (3:02:21.640)

During the 30s, I think it was, or 1940,

Michael Malice (3:02:24.780)

she was out of the country.

Lex Fridman (3:02:26.340)

She was accused of molesting a teenage boy.

Michael Malice (3:02:29.860)

She wasn't in America.

Lex Fridman (3:02:31.900)

This could be proven.

Lex Fridman (3:02:33.220)

So it's absolutely false, not even a question.

Lex Fridman (3:02:36.060)

She was indicted, and she wanted to kill herself

Michael Malice (3:02:39.900)

because she's like, people are gonna see these things,

Lex Fridman (3:02:43.820)

and they're gonna think maybe there's some truth to it.

Michael Malice (3:02:45.460)

Maybe it's voluntary.

Lex Fridman (3:02:46.920)

What they're just gonna, and you could understand

Lex Fridman (3:02:49.180)

why she'd be suicidal over this.

Lex Fridman (3:02:50.940)

So yeah, this is something that's been going on

Michael Malice (3:02:52.940)

for a long time, and the fact that it's becoming,

Lex Fridman (3:02:55.560)

I do agree, it's important.

Michael Malice (3:02:57.180)

I know a lot of women who have been sexually assaulted,

Lex Fridman (3:02:59.580)

more than I'm happy that I know.

Lex Fridman (3:03:01.560)

And if I know that many, that means there's more.

Lex Fridman (3:03:03.820)

So I think it's a good idea that they feel seen,

Michael Malice (3:03:08.540)

that they don't feel wounded, they don't feel damaged,

Lex Fridman (3:03:10.540)

that they could talk to their friends.

Lex Fridman (3:03:12.020)

And I'm like, man, this sucks is happening to you.

Lex Fridman (3:03:13.920)

And I don't think you're a slut.

Michael Malice (3:03:15.720)

I don't think you're asking for it.

Lex Fridman (3:03:16.860)

I think you feel violated.

Michael Malice (3:03:17.860)

I think it's gross.

Lex Fridman (3:03:19.180)

Talk to me.

Michael Malice (3:03:20.020)

I do think that that's important.

Lex Fridman (3:03:21.940)

And I also think it's important though,

Michael Malice (3:03:23.820)

when things get kind of in a frenzy,

Lex Fridman (3:03:26.540)

that a lot of people are like,

Michael Malice (3:03:27.820)

yeah, I also had something happen.

Lex Fridman (3:03:29.500)

And very quickly the line between he grabbed my boob

Lex Fridman (3:03:33.200)

and he violently raped me,

Lex Fridman (3:03:34.900)

I don't think these two things are the same at all.

Michael Malice (3:03:37.080)

I think they're both sexual assault,

Lex Fridman (3:03:39.020)

but in terms of what someone can deal with the next day,

Michael Malice (3:03:41.820)

the next month, 10 years later,

Lex Fridman (3:03:43.620)

I don't think they're similar scenarios.

Michael Malice (3:03:47.420)

I had Juanita Brodrick on my show

Lex Fridman (3:03:49.240)

and hearing her talk about her alleged rape by Bill Clinton

Michael Malice (3:03:53.820)

was very disturbing for me, very disturbing to hear.

Lex Fridman (3:03:56.940)

Because it was like half an hour.

Lex Fridman (3:03:58.800)

So we think of these things and think,

Lex Fridman (3:04:00.300)

okay, hold her down, blah, blah, blah.

Lex Fridman (3:04:01.960)

And then it's done.

Lex Fridman (3:04:02.800)

Half an hour when,

Michael Malice (3:04:03.660)

just even someone physically holding you down

Lex Fridman (3:04:05.460)

for half an hour.

Michael Malice (3:04:06.620)

Like not even a sexual assault.

Lex Fridman (3:04:08.300)

Like that's traumatic.

Lex Fridman (3:04:09.980)

You think, your brain's gonna think, am I gonna die?

Lex Fridman (3:04:12.460)

When I zoom out,

Michael Malice (3:04:14.040)

I think that ultimately this is gonna lead

Lex Fridman (3:04:16.860)

to a better world.

Michael Malice (3:04:18.700)

Like empowering women to speak to those kinds of experiences,

Lex Fridman (3:04:24.460)

the benefit of it outweighs the...

Michael Malice (3:04:27.500)

The issue is whenever people are given a weapon,

Lex Fridman (3:04:30.300)

some are going to use it in nefarious ways.

Lex Fridman (3:04:33.300)

And that's the lesson of history.

Lex Fridman (3:04:34.540)

Males, females, whites, blacks, children, adults.

Michael Malice (3:04:38.580)

When people are given a mechanism to execute power

Lex Fridman (3:04:40.980)

over others, some are gonna use it.

Lex Fridman (3:04:43.500)

Can I ask you for a therapy thing?

Lex Fridman (3:04:46.480)

Sure.

Michael Malice (3:04:48.620)

On trolling, in a sense.

Lex Fridman (3:04:51.520)

Because I mentioned somebody making up something about me.

Michael Malice (3:04:55.060)

I feel, because I wear my heart on my sleeve,

Lex Fridman (3:04:59.560)

I'm not good with these attacks.

Michael Malice (3:05:01.960)

Like I've been attacked recently,

Lex Fridman (3:05:03.820)

just being called a fraud and all that kind of stuff.

Michael Malice (3:05:06.420)

Just light stuff.

Lex Fridman (3:05:07.300)

Like I haven't, you know, it was like, it hurt.

Michael Malice (3:05:11.880)

Okay, well, let me help you.

Lex Fridman (3:05:13.460)

Maybe it's because I'm a New Yorker.

Michael Malice (3:05:15.860)

No, I'm serious.

Lex Fridman (3:05:16.700)

Here's why.

Michael Malice (3:05:17.860)

In New York, a lot of times you'll be walking

Lex Fridman (3:05:21.140)

with your friend and a homeless person will come up to you

Lex Fridman (3:05:24.660)

and start yelling things at you.

Lex Fridman (3:05:26.740)

Your reaction isn't in those circumstances.

Michael Malice (3:05:29.740)

Let me hear this out.

Lex Fridman (3:05:31.360)

Your reaction is physical safety and getting away.

Michael Malice (3:05:35.060)

Now, it's not impossible that that homeless person

Lex Fridman (3:05:38.500)

is actually saying the truth.

Michael Malice (3:05:39.900)

This happened to a friend of mine.

Lex Fridman (3:05:42.020)

This guy wasn't homeless

Lex Fridman (3:05:44.340)

and he's walking down the street on Smith Street

Lex Fridman (3:05:46.940)

and he's just talking out loud.

Lex Fridman (3:05:48.640)

And he goes, why they call them hipsters?

Lex Fridman (3:05:50.600)

What are they hip to?

Lex Fridman (3:05:52.020)

And she chuckles.

Lex Fridman (3:05:53.420)

And he goes, what are you laughing at, fatso?

Michael Malice (3:05:55.180)

You start something, I'll finish it.

Lex Fridman (3:05:57.220)

And she just couldn't move.

Lex Fridman (3:05:59.060)

And it's like, it's my main problem

Lex Fridman (3:06:02.460)

because that's the first thing he went to.

Lex Fridman (3:06:04.340)

And I don't know that I have any advice,

Lex Fridman (3:06:07.980)

but when you hear something like this,

Michael Malice (3:06:11.020)

I think you need to be better in terms of boundaries.

Lex Fridman (3:06:13.580)

I think you should not perceive this as a fellow human,

Lex Fridman (3:06:16.220)

but as a crazy homeless person,

Lex Fridman (3:06:18.780)

because if this fellow human,

Michael Malice (3:06:21.460)

if I thought that you were a fraud in some context,

Lex Fridman (3:06:24.660)

that's a very weird word to use

Michael Malice (3:06:25.900)

because fraudulent podcaster, these are real mics,

Lex Fridman (3:06:29.020)

but if I thought.

Michael Malice (3:06:29.860)

Well, a scientist or a human.

Lex Fridman (3:06:31.900)

Sure, but I would ask myself,

Michael Malice (3:06:33.720)

is this person in a position to make this judgment

Lex Fridman (3:06:36.420)

or are they backing it up?

Michael Malice (3:06:37.880)

Are they saying, here, your conclusions were wrong,

Lex Fridman (3:06:40.620)

here's some mistakes in your data

Lex Fridman (3:06:42.620)

and you can engage with them in ideas,

Lex Fridman (3:06:44.660)

but whenever someone uses a word

Michael Malice (3:06:46.140)

to entirely dismiss your life

Lex Fridman (3:06:48.000)

without having the knowledge of your life,

Michael Malice (3:06:50.620)

you do not have to take that seriously.

Lex Fridman (3:06:53.660)

I appreciate that kind of idea,

Lex Fridman (3:06:55.280)

but some things aren't about data,

Lex Fridman (3:06:58.300)

like I see myself as a fraud often

Lex Fridman (3:07:02.060)

and it's more psychology of it.

Lex Fridman (3:07:06.800)

If I can reduce something to reason,

Michael Malice (3:07:09.120)

I can probably be fine.

Lex Fridman (3:07:11.140)

My worry is the same as the worry of teenage girls

Michael Malice (3:07:14.580)

that get bullied online.

Lex Fridman (3:07:16.260)

It's like when I'm being open and fragile on the internet,

Michael Malice (3:07:20.140)

it affects me in a way where I can't,

Lex Fridman (3:07:22.460)

the reason doesn't help.

Lex Fridman (3:07:23.980)

So it helps me, but.

Lex Fridman (3:07:24.820)

You don't block people enough.

Michael Malice (3:07:26.220)

I'm very heavy with the blocking.

Lex Fridman (3:07:27.420)

No, so yeah, I block.

Michael Malice (3:07:29.180)

Very heavy.

Lex Fridman (3:07:30.100)

I block, it's helped a lot.

Michael Malice (3:07:31.860)

Any aggressive banality, I block immediately.

Lex Fridman (3:07:34.420)

I also think time is gonna help.

Michael Malice (3:07:36.380)

I don't think you're,

Lex Fridman (3:07:37.540)

like you didn't grow up wanting to be a podcaster, right?

Michael Malice (3:07:40.260)

That wasn't your aspiration.

Lex Fridman (3:07:41.740)

So in some sense, you are gonna feel like a fraud

Michael Malice (3:07:43.660)

because you're like, I don't have any training for this.

Lex Fridman (3:07:45.140)

I have a training for a scientist.

Michael Malice (3:07:46.460)

I can talk to you about artificial intelligence

Lex Fridman (3:07:48.040)

for literally hours, but in terms of this,

Michael Malice (3:07:49.980)

like I don't know what I'm doing.

Lex Fridman (3:07:50.980)

I'm kind of, so when they call you a fake,

Michael Malice (3:07:53.580)

it's like, yeah, you're kind of right

Lex Fridman (3:07:55.140)

because like I did kind of stumble into this

Lex Fridman (3:07:57.740)

and this is not my pedigree.

Lex Fridman (3:07:59.720)

So I think that kind of probably speaks to you

Michael Malice (3:08:01.940)

on some level.

Lex Fridman (3:08:02.780)

Well, but they're attacking not the podcast thing,

Lex Fridman (3:08:05.220)

but more like the same,

Lex Fridman (3:08:07.260)

people call Elon Musk a fraud too,

Michael Malice (3:08:08.860)

which that's the way I rationalize it.

Lex Fridman (3:08:11.120)

Like, well, if they're calling him a fraud

Lex Fridman (3:08:13.980)

and they're calling me a fraud,

Lex Fridman (3:08:17.100)

like even if you have rockets that go into,

Michael Malice (3:08:20.420)

like if you successfully have rockets

Lex Fridman (3:08:22.260)

landing back on earth, reusable rockets,

Michael Malice (3:08:26.300)

you're still being called a fraud, then it's okay.

Lex Fridman (3:08:30.980)

Not necessarily.

Michael Malice (3:08:31.820)

It could be that he's not a fraud.

Lex Fridman (3:08:32.640)

You really are.

Michael Malice (3:08:35.060)

That's, but it's not resonating with you

Lex Fridman (3:08:36.940)

because your brain knows the logic.

Lex Fridman (3:08:38.140)

So you can't trick yourself.

Lex Fridman (3:08:39.260)

But yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:08:42.620)

But I don't know, this whole trolling thing,

Lex Fridman (3:08:44.940)

you seem to be much better at seeing it as a game.

Lex Fridman (3:08:50.740)

You know why?

Lex Fridman (3:08:51.780)

Because you are under the delusion

Michael Malice (3:08:54.380)

that every human being is capable

Lex Fridman (3:08:56.220)

of intelligent reasoned decisions.

Michael Malice (3:08:57.940)

Still think I'm right.

Lex Fridman (3:08:58.780)

And I perceive them as literally animals.

Lex Fridman (3:09:01.460)

So when a dog starts barking,

Lex Fridman (3:09:03.780)

all it's saying is that the dog is agitated

Lex Fridman (3:09:05.820)

and this is not going to change my life one iota

Lex Fridman (3:09:08.260)

other than crossing the street, perhaps.

Michael Malice (3:09:09.940)

Yeah, I'm going to prove you wrong one day.

Lex Fridman (3:09:12.900)

You're going to kill yourself

Michael Malice (3:09:13.900)

because they can drive you to it.

Lex Fridman (3:09:15.540)

The first shoot up of school.

Lex Fridman (3:09:17.540)

But if I don't, I'll prove you wrong.

Lex Fridman (3:09:19.340)

I'll bring the data.

Lex Fridman (3:09:20.660)

And they'd be like, you're right, Lex.

Lex Fridman (3:09:22.300)

I have the receipts.

Michael Malice (3:09:23.340)

I have the receipts.

Lex Fridman (3:09:24.980)

Okay, so we mentioned Camus.

Michael Malice (3:09:27.660)

Oh yeah, I love him.

Lex Fridman (3:09:29.260)

Is there, this is a question that people like love

Michael Malice (3:09:34.340)

when I ask.

Lex Fridman (3:09:35.500)

I'm a really smart people.

Lex Fridman (3:09:37.380)

What it is, love?

Lex Fridman (3:09:39.660)

No, what books, let's say three books,

Michael Malice (3:09:44.780)

if you can think of them, technical, fiction,

Lex Fridman (3:09:47.940)

philosophical, would you, had a big impact on you

Lex Fridman (3:09:52.060)

or would you recommend to others?

Lex Fridman (3:09:53.700)

Sure.

Michael Malice (3:09:54.540)

The Machiavellians by James Burnham.

Lex Fridman (3:09:56.940)

This is a book about how politics works in reality

Michael Malice (3:09:59.820)

as opposed to how people imagine it working.

Lex Fridman (3:10:03.380)

Mentis Moldbug, who's a figure in these circles,

Michael Malice (3:10:05.660)

who's respected by a lot of people.

Lex Fridman (3:10:07.460)

I was giving a talk and there was a bunch of panelists

Lex Fridman (3:10:10.380)

and we were asked, what book would you recommend?

Lex Fridman (3:10:12.620)

I said, The Machiavellians.

Michael Malice (3:10:14.020)

Independently of me, that was the book he had recommended.

Lex Fridman (3:10:17.060)

It's out of print, it's hard to find,

Lex Fridman (3:10:18.580)

but that would be one.

Lex Fridman (3:10:19.860)

Is that his book or no?

Michael Malice (3:10:20.900)

James Burnham, it came out in 1941, I think.

Lex Fridman (3:10:23.620)

So can you pause on the, what's his?

Michael Malice (3:10:26.820)

Mentis Moldbug.

Lex Fridman (3:10:28.180)

That's a code name, right?

Michael Malice (3:10:29.740)

That guy's pen name.

Lex Fridman (3:10:31.060)

Curtis Yarvin, that's his real name.

Michael Malice (3:10:33.460)

He swims in your circles.

Lex Fridman (3:10:35.620)

Which circles?

Michael Malice (3:10:36.460)

He does some kind of programming.

Lex Fridman (3:10:37.300)

Oh, he's originally a programmer.

Michael Malice (3:10:38.660)

Yeah, he comes up as a person that I should talk with

Lex Fridman (3:10:43.740)

or I should know about, but then I read a few of his things

Lex Fridman (3:10:46.820)

and they seem quite dangerous.

Lex Fridman (3:10:49.180)

They're very long and verbose,

Lex Fridman (3:10:50.780)

but I think he's an amazing thinker.

Lex Fridman (3:10:53.100)

Yeah, but.

Lex Fridman (3:10:53.940)

But he's the one who had the idea

Lex Fridman (3:10:54.780)

of sending the tanks to Harvard Yard.

Lex Fridman (3:10:56.460)

But doesn't he have like,

Lex Fridman (3:11:00.380)

he has some radical views.

Michael Malice (3:11:01.300)

I forget what they are.

Lex Fridman (3:11:02.140)

Very radical views, yeah, he wants a military coup.

Lex Fridman (3:11:06.620)

But you're saying he's a serious thinker

Lex Fridman (3:11:08.420)

that is worthy of, not worthy.

Michael Malice (3:11:11.780)

I don't know that you would enjoy

Lex Fridman (3:11:13.200)

having a conversation with him.

Michael Malice (3:11:14.340)

I think a lot of people enjoy seeing it happen,

Lex Fridman (3:11:16.140)

but I think it would be a lot of talking past each other

Lex Fridman (3:11:18.220)

and it would be interesting.

Lex Fridman (3:11:20.660)

What do you agree?

Michael Malice (3:11:21.500)

I didn't agree with him to watch.

Lex Fridman (3:11:22.340)

What do you disagree, okay.

Lex Fridman (3:11:24.100)

What do you agree, what do you disagree with him?

Lex Fridman (3:11:25.380)

I agree with him that politics has to be looked at

Michael Malice (3:11:28.900)

objectively and without kind of an emotional connection

Lex Fridman (3:11:33.200)

to different schools.

Michael Malice (3:11:34.580)

I talk about him a lot in my book on the New Right.

Lex Fridman (3:11:38.280)

Disagree, I don't think a military coup is a good idea.

Michael Malice (3:11:42.140)

He doesn't think anarchism is stable, I disagree.

Lex Fridman (3:11:47.060)

I mean, me and him, I did a live stream with him

Michael Malice (3:11:49.140)

which just dorked out a lot about history

Lex Fridman (3:11:50.460)

and people who've fallen in the memory hole.

Michael Malice (3:11:52.820)

So, I mean, he's got a lot of writing, so.

Lex Fridman (3:11:56.220)

So, you know, the sense I got from him

Michael Malice (3:11:58.980)

was that if I talk with him,

Lex Fridman (3:12:01.580)

a lot of people would be upset with me

Michael Malice (3:12:03.740)

for giving him a platform.

Lex Fridman (3:12:05.220)

Yeah, I think he's on that edge

Michael Malice (3:12:07.220)

where they want to read him out of

Lex Fridman (3:12:09.620)

what is acceptable discourse.

Michael Malice (3:12:11.500)

What's his most controversial,

Lex Fridman (3:12:13.460)

I mean, you keep mentioning the tanks.

Lex Fridman (3:12:15.220)

Is that the most controversial viewpoint?

Lex Fridman (3:12:17.120)

Does he have a race thing?

Michael Malice (3:12:18.340)

No, the alt right doesn't particularly like him

Lex Fridman (3:12:21.420)

in many ways because he's not a big on the race thing.

Michael Malice (3:12:24.140)

I don't know what would be his most controversial view,

Lex Fridman (3:12:27.580)

to be honest.

Michael Malice (3:12:28.580)

I think because he is radical in terms of his analysis

Lex Fridman (3:12:33.220)

of culture, anytime someone's a radical,

Michael Malice (3:12:34.960)

that is dangerous.

Lex Fridman (3:12:35.800)

Yeah, it's dangerous.

Michael Malice (3:12:36.940)

Okay, book, so that's one.

Lex Fridman (3:12:39.100)

The Fountainhead.

Michael Malice (3:12:40.180)

The Fountainhead.

Lex Fridman (3:12:41.260)

Which is a, I would say.

Lex Fridman (3:12:43.380)

Not Atlas Shrugged?

Lex Fridman (3:12:44.300)

No, and if you read Atlas Shrugged

Michael Malice (3:12:46.180)

before reading The Fountainhead,

Lex Fridman (3:12:47.140)

you're doing yourself an enormous disservice.

Michael Malice (3:12:48.660)

Don't you dare do it.

Lex Fridman (3:12:49.980)

On the philosophical or because the novel is better?

Michael Malice (3:12:52.380)

On every level.

Lex Fridman (3:12:53.220)

Fountainhead's a better novel.

Michael Malice (3:12:54.580)

Fountainhead's superfluous if you read Atlas Shrugged first.

Lex Fridman (3:12:57.140)

Fountainhead's about psychology and ethics.

Michael Malice (3:13:00.460)

It does not have to do with her politics

Lex Fridman (3:13:02.260)

other than its implications.

Lex Fridman (3:13:03.820)

So it's by far the superior book.

Lex Fridman (3:13:06.020)

The third one.

Michael Malice (3:13:08.140)

Ooh, this is a good one question.

Lex Fridman (3:13:09.500)

Let me see.

Michael Malice (3:13:10.340)

There's so many good books out there that I love.

Lex Fridman (3:13:13.180)

I'm going to, this is not really my third choice,

Lex Fridman (3:13:16.300)

but I'll throw it out there because I,

Lex Fridman (3:13:19.220)

this is such an important worldview,

Michael Malice (3:13:21.140)

especially for people on the right.

Lex Fridman (3:13:22.820)

Are you virtue signaling?

Michael Malice (3:13:24.180)

No, this is counter signaling.

Lex Fridman (3:13:26.780)

Thaddeus Russell's book,

Michael Malice (3:13:27.860)

A Renegade History of the United States.

Lex Fridman (3:13:29.620)

His thesis is that it's the degenerates

Michael Malice (3:13:33.240)

that give us all freedom.

Lex Fridman (3:13:36.020)

And things like prostitutes, things like madams,

Michael Malice (3:13:38.580)

things like slaves, things like immigrants,

Lex Fridman (3:13:41.540)

because they were so low status,

Michael Malice (3:13:44.420)

they could get away with things

Lex Fridman (3:13:46.000)

that then people who are higher status demanded

Lex Fridman (3:13:47.940)

and so on and so forth.

Lex Fridman (3:13:48.900)

So I think that thesis,

Lex Fridman (3:13:50.540)

and it really has extreme consequences in thinking.

Lex Fridman (3:13:57.340)

And no, Jonathan Haidt, The Righteous Mind.

Michael Malice (3:13:59.900)

That's, those are the four.

Lex Fridman (3:14:02.740)

Is that his best?

Michael Malice (3:14:03.580)

I haven't read any of his stuff.

Lex Fridman (3:14:04.700)

The Righteous Mind is the only one you want.

Michael Malice (3:14:06.060)

Okay, that was four, but of course.

Lex Fridman (3:14:10.340)

Forget Thaddeus Russell, put Haidt in there.

Michael Malice (3:14:12.540)

Of course he would.

Lex Fridman (3:14:14.080)

No, forget Thaddeus, those are the three.

Lex Fridman (3:14:17.380)

So we talked about love.

Lex Fridman (3:14:18.820)

Let me ask you the other question I'm obsessed with.

Lex Fridman (3:14:22.740)

Are you, do you ponder your own mortality?

Lex Fridman (3:14:26.300)

I do, a lot, especially now that I'm an uncle,

Michael Malice (3:14:29.780)

especially now that I have like these younger people

Lex Fridman (3:14:31.860)

that I mentor.

Michael Malice (3:14:33.640)

I was just yesterday, my friend, John Girguis,

Lex Fridman (3:14:36.140)

who did my theme song for my podcast,

Michael Malice (3:14:37.700)

who did the book cover for Dear Reader,

Lex Fridman (3:14:40.900)

who's like the most talented person I know.

Michael Malice (3:14:42.940)

His song came on the iPod at the gym

Lex Fridman (3:14:45.460)

and I almost messaged him.

Michael Malice (3:14:46.500)

I go, you know, one day one of us is gonna bury the other

Lex Fridman (3:14:48.900)

and it's gonna be really sad.

Lex Fridman (3:14:50.420)

And I thought about that and it was kind of like,

Lex Fridman (3:14:52.080)

oh man, that's really gonna suck.

Lex Fridman (3:14:54.020)

And I don't know which scenario would be better.

Lex Fridman (3:14:56.380)

Like I will be very sad if he's gone.

Michael Malice (3:14:58.660)

I'm sure he'd be very sad if I'm gone.

Lex Fridman (3:15:01.540)

I mean, what do you, are you afraid of it?

Michael Malice (3:15:03.420)

No, you know, Rand had this quote about how

Lex Fridman (3:15:08.180)

I won't die, the world will end.

Lex Fridman (3:15:10.340)

So I've had enough experiences that I am,

Lex Fridman (3:15:13.580)

I've really, at this point,

Lex Fridman (3:15:16.980)

and everything's icing on the cake.

Lex Fridman (3:15:18.820)

So if you, if I were to kill you

Michael Malice (3:15:20.800)

at the end of this podcast, it feels painless.

Lex Fridman (3:15:24.420)

That would be okay?

Lex Fridman (3:15:25.260)

Yeah, you know why?

Lex Fridman (3:15:26.620)

Does anyone know you're here by the way?

Lex Fridman (3:15:28.340)

You know why?

Lex Fridman (3:15:30.460)

Just asking for a friend.

Michael Malice (3:15:32.140)

Here's why, there's that wit.

Lex Fridman (3:15:34.620)

Save that for Twitter likes.

Lex Fridman (3:15:37.420)

Do they call you Sasha?

Lex Fridman (3:15:38.940)

No, I'm a Lyosha.

Michael Malice (3:15:40.300)

Oh, that's my sister's husband.

Lex Fridman (3:15:41.940)

Okay, so here's why.

Michael Malice (3:15:45.580)

I strongly believe,

Lex Fridman (3:15:47.260)

and this is a very kind of Jewish perspective,

Michael Malice (3:15:49.520)

that you just have to leave the world

Lex Fridman (3:15:50.980)

a little bit better than you found it.

Michael Malice (3:15:52.340)

That all you could do is move the needle a little.

Lex Fridman (3:15:54.420)

And one of the things I set out to do

Michael Malice (3:15:56.500)

with Dear Reader, my book on North Korea,

Lex Fridman (3:15:58.860)

I was at a point in my career where I could do something

Michael Malice (3:16:01.420)

to make a difference instead of just writing,

Lex Fridman (3:16:02.740)

like coauthoring books for celebrities,

Michael Malice (3:16:04.500)

which I'm very proud of, but are neither here nor there.

Lex Fridman (3:16:07.540)

And I thought, all right, I know how to tell stories,

Michael Malice (3:16:09.780)

I know how to inform people, I know how to entertain people.

Lex Fridman (3:16:12.140)

If I move the needle in America, who cares?

Michael Malice (3:16:14.420)

We got it really good here.

Lex Fridman (3:16:15.740)

If I move the needle in North Korea a little bit,

Michael Malice (3:16:18.360)

the cost benefits through the roof.

Lex Fridman (3:16:20.300)

I never thought of that actually.

Michael Malice (3:16:22.380)

I never thought of Dear Reader from that perspective.

Lex Fridman (3:16:24.820)

So when I set out to write it, I'm like, okay,

Lex Fridman (3:16:28.000)

what can I do?

Lex Fridman (3:16:28.840)

I'm not gonna be able to liberate the North Korean regime.

Lex Fridman (3:16:30.740)

What I can do is the camera right now is focused on,

Lex Fridman (3:16:34.620)

at the time, Kim Jong Il, now Kim Jong Un.

Lex Fridman (3:16:36.980)

And I can do just this a little bit.

Lex Fridman (3:16:38.940)

And I go, behind that guy, who you think is funny clown,

Michael Malice (3:16:42.700)

there's millions of dead people.

Lex Fridman (3:16:44.500)

There's children being starved.

Michael Malice (3:16:46.220)

There's people who are performing

Lex Fridman (3:16:47.860)

because they have a gun to their kid's head.

Lex Fridman (3:16:49.620)

And if someone put a gun to your kid's head,

Lex Fridman (3:16:51.060)

you'd put on those dancing shoes real quick.

Lex Fridman (3:16:53.160)

And I and others have managed to change the conversation

Lex Fridman (3:16:57.420)

about North Korea in terms of look at those silly buffoons

Michael Malice (3:17:00.660)

to those poor people.

Lex Fridman (3:17:02.940)

So the fact that that little thing I can say

Michael Malice (3:17:05.620)

with a straight face, I did,

Lex Fridman (3:17:07.740)

doesn't make me a great person,

Lex Fridman (3:17:09.380)

but it does make me someone who, if I have to go tomorrow,

Lex Fridman (3:17:13.060)

I can say I did a little bit

Michael Malice (3:17:15.600)

to make the world a better place.

Lex Fridman (3:17:17.780)

What do you think is the meaning of life?

Michael Malice (3:17:21.060)

I think the meaning of life is...

Lex Fridman (3:17:26.380)

Why are we here?

Michael Malice (3:17:27.620)

Oh, well, I'm a Camu person.

Lex Fridman (3:17:29.560)

So I'll give the Camu answer.

Lex Fridman (3:17:31.340)

So there's two types of people.

Lex Fridman (3:17:33.740)

Those who know how to use binary...

Michael Malice (3:17:35.020)

No.

Lex Fridman (3:17:35.860)

There's...

Michael Malice (3:17:36.700)

Thanks for relating to the audience.

Lex Fridman (3:17:41.620)

One, one, one, zero, zero, one, two.

Lex Fridman (3:17:42.940)

Two?

Lex Fridman (3:17:45.300)

Down vote.

Lex Fridman (3:17:47.540)

What kind of radical freak is this Lex?

Lex Fridman (3:17:50.100)

So, and I use this example of my forthcoming book.

Michael Malice (3:17:53.340)

You go into a countryside, a mountainside,

Lex Fridman (3:17:56.060)

and you see a blank canvas on an easel.

Lex Fridman (3:17:59.020)

And one kind of mentality goes,

Lex Fridman (3:18:00.620)

this is just a blank canvas.

Michael Malice (3:18:02.860)

This is stupid.

Lex Fridman (3:18:03.700)

This is what am I looking at?

Lex Fridman (3:18:05.020)

And the other type goes, what a great opportunity.

Lex Fridman (3:18:08.300)

I'm in this beautiful space.

Michael Malice (3:18:09.780)

I have this entire canvas to paint.

Lex Fridman (3:18:11.460)

I could do anything I want with it.

Lex Fridman (3:18:13.280)

So I am very much of that type two person.

Lex Fridman (3:18:16.620)

And I hope others start to think of life in that way.

Michael Malice (3:18:21.940)

You and I have both been more successful

Lex Fridman (3:18:23.700)

than we expected to, especially growing up,

Lex Fridman (3:18:25.900)

and in ways we did not expect.

Lex Fridman (3:18:28.620)

And when you're young,

Michael Malice (3:18:30.020)

you are so intent on driving the car.

Lex Fridman (3:18:33.020)

And after a certain point,

Michael Malice (3:18:34.220)

you realize it's not about driving the car.

Lex Fridman (3:18:35.780)

It's you're being a surfer,

Michael Malice (3:18:37.300)

that you can only control this little board

Lex Fridman (3:18:39.280)

and you have no idea where the waves will take you.

Lex Fridman (3:18:41.060)

And sometimes you're gonna fall down

Lex Fridman (3:18:42.160)

and something's gonna really gonna suck

Lex Fridman (3:18:43.140)

and you're gonna swallow some saltwater.

Lex Fridman (3:18:44.800)

But at a certain point, you stop trying to drive

Lex Fridman (3:18:47.440)

and you're like, this is freaking awesome

Lex Fridman (3:18:48.820)

and I have no idea where it's gonna go.

Michael Malice (3:18:51.860)

Beautifully put.

Lex Fridman (3:18:53.380)

I know I speak for a lot of people.

Michael Malice (3:18:54.980)

First of all, everyone loves the game you play

Lex Fridman (3:18:58.820)

on the intranet.

Michael Malice (3:18:59.660)

It's fun.

Lex Fridman (3:19:00.740)

You make the world not everyone.

Michael Malice (3:19:02.220)

Today, oof, they came for me hard.

Lex Fridman (3:19:05.220)

But it makes the world seem fun.

Lex Fridman (3:19:08.540)

And especially in this dark time, it's much appreciated.

Lex Fridman (3:19:12.580)

And we can't wait till the next book

Lex Fridman (3:19:14.580)

and the many to come

Lex Fridman (3:19:15.580)

and to hopefully many more Joe Rogan appearances.

Michael Malice (3:19:18.580)

You guys do some great magic together.

Lex Fridman (3:19:20.300)

This is fun.

Michael Malice (3:19:21.140)

It's, you, yeah, you're one of my favorite guests on this show

Lex Fridman (3:19:26.540)

so I can't wait.

Michael Malice (3:19:27.500)

Especially if you can make it before the election.

Lex Fridman (3:19:30.700)

Thanks so much for making today happen.

Michael Malice (3:19:32.260)

I'm glad you came down.

Lex Fridman (3:19:33.740)

You're awesome.

Michael Malice (3:19:34.580)

Thank you so much.

Lex Fridman (3:19:35.400)

What a great compliment.

Michael Malice (3:19:37.160)

Thanks for listening to this conversation

Lex Fridman (3:19:38.820)

with Michael Malus.

Lex Fridman (3:19:39.940)

And thank you to our sponsors.

Lex Fridman (3:19:41.820)

SEMrush, which is a SEO optimization tool.

Michael Malice (3:19:46.180)

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Lex Fridman (3:19:49.620)

and Masterclass, which is online courses from world experts.

Michael Malice (3:19:54.980)

Please check out these sponsors in the description

Lex Fridman (3:19:57.100)

to get a discount and to support this podcast.

Michael Malice (3:20:00.560)

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Lex Fridman (3:20:02.760)

review it with five stars and up a podcast,

Michael Malice (3:20:04.940)

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Lex Fridman (3:20:07.620)

or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman.

Lex Fridman (3:20:11.280)

And now let me leave you with some words

Lex Fridman (3:20:13.380)

from Michael Malus.

Michael Malice (3:20:15.220)

Conservatism is progressivism driving the speed limit.

Lex Fridman (3:20:19.900)

Thank you for listening.

Michael Malice (3:20:20.980)

I hope to see you next time.

Lex Fridman (40:01.000)

That's not, when we're talking about like state corruption,

Michael Malice (40:04.160)

things that are done in totalitarian states

Lex Fridman (40:06.040)

and even to some extent in America,

Michael Malice (40:07.280)

like Jeffrey Epstein, Jillian Maxwell,

Lex Fridman (40:09.200)

things that Stalin did, things that Hitler did.

Michael Malice (40:11.640)

When the CIA was torturing people at Gitmo,

Lex Fridman (40:14.160)

they had to borrow KGB manuals

Michael Malice (40:16.320)

because they didn't know how to torture correctly

Lex Fridman (40:17.720)

because they never thought of these things.

Michael Malice (40:20.040)

It's very hard for us to get into the mindset

Lex Fridman (40:23.320)

of someone who's like a child predator,

Michael Malice (40:25.720)

someone who, let me give you an example

Lex Fridman (40:27.840)

from my forthcoming book.

Michael Malice (40:28.800)

There was a guy who was the head of Ukraine in the 30s,

Lex Fridman (40:31.840)

I forget his name.

Michael Malice (40:33.200)

Now these old Soviets, they were tough.

Lex Fridman (40:34.840)

I mean, they pride, Stalin means steel.

Michael Malice (40:36.840)

They pride themselves and their cruelty

Lex Fridman (40:39.160)

and how strong they were.

Lex Fridman (40:40.720)

And this was the purge.

Lex Fridman (40:42.080)

Stalin is trying to, killing lots of people left and right

Lex Fridman (40:44.840)

and his henchman, Beria had the quote,

Lex Fridman (40:48.320)

find me the man and I'll find you the crime.

Michael Malice (40:50.400)

They would accuse someone and they would torture him

Lex Fridman (40:52.840)

until he talked and confessed

Lex Fridman (40:54.640)

and then he had to turn people in.

Lex Fridman (40:56.480)

And they took this guy in like beginning of the year,

Michael Malice (40:59.200)

I think it's 36, 38, he was head of Ukraine.

Lex Fridman (41:01.480)

By May, he's arrested.

Lex Fridman (41:02.960)

And they take him to the Ljubljanka, the basement

Lex Fridman (41:04.680)

in the red square where they're torturing people.

Lex Fridman (41:06.640)

And they did the works on him.

Lex Fridman (41:08.440)

And he was a good Soviet and he stood up.

Lex Fridman (41:11.120)

Who knows what they did to him?

Lex Fridman (41:12.400)

He didn't talk.

Lex Fridman (41:13.560)

So they said, okay, one moment.

Lex Fridman (41:16.280)

They brought his teenage daughter in,

Michael Malice (41:18.200)

raped her in front of him, he talked.

Lex Fridman (41:20.680)

So when we talk about corruption,

Michael Malice (41:24.280)

we would never in a million years think of this.

Lex Fridman (41:26.920)

That's not how our minds work.

Lex Fridman (41:29.560)

So when you're talking about states

Lex Fridman (41:31.960)

and people where you don't have ease of exit,

Michael Malice (41:35.760)

where you are forced to be under the auspices

Lex Fridman (41:38.600)

of an organization creating a monopoly,

Michael Malice (41:41.480)

that leads to in extreme cases,

Lex Fridman (41:44.440)

but in not as extreme cases, really nefarious outcomes.

Michael Malice (41:49.040)

Whereas if you have the option to leave

Lex Fridman (41:53.000)

as a client or customer,

Michael Malice (41:54.880)

that would have a strongly limiting effect

Lex Fridman (41:58.040)

on how a business and what it can get away with.

Lex Fridman (42:01.440)

But don't you think maybe,

Lex Fridman (42:03.200)

I don't know who the right example is,

Michael Malice (42:04.640)

whether it's Stalin,

Lex Fridman (42:05.720)

I think Hitler might be the better example of,

Michael Malice (42:08.840)

don't you think, or Jeffrey Epstein perhaps,

Lex Fridman (42:12.720)

don't you think people who are evil

Michael Malice (42:15.280)

will find ways to manipulate human nature

Lex Fridman (42:20.640)

to attain power, no matter the system?

Michael Malice (42:23.720)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (42:24.560)

And like the corollary question is,

Lex Fridman (42:27.920)

do you think those people can get more power

Lex Fridman (42:31.800)

in a democracy, when there's a government already in place?

Michael Malice (42:37.920)

It's easily they get more power, more dangerous

Lex Fridman (42:39.800)

to have a government in place.

Michael Malice (42:40.760)

First of all, sociopaths don't know for their charm

Lex Fridman (42:43.040)

and for their warmth.

Michael Malice (42:44.720)

Here's the two situations.

Lex Fridman (42:47.120)

In a free society, I'm a sociopath, I'm an evil person,

Michael Malice (42:51.000)

I'm the head of Macy's.

Lex Fridman (42:53.040)

In a state society, I'm an evil person, I'm a sociopath,

Michael Malice (42:55.640)

I'm the head of the US government.

Lex Fridman (42:57.320)

Which of these are you more concerned with?

Michael Malice (42:59.240)

It's like night and day.

Lex Fridman (43:00.560)

So you would have far more decentralized military,

Michael Malice (43:03.320)

you would have far more decentralized security forces,

Lex Fridman (43:08.460)

and they would be much more subject

Michael Malice (43:10.120)

to feedback from the market.

Lex Fridman (43:11.760)

If you have an issue with Macy's

Michael Malice (43:14.800)

or any store with a sweater, look at that transaction.

Lex Fridman (43:18.320)

If you have an issue with the state,

Michael Malice (43:20.880)

hiring a lawyer costs more than a surgeon.

Lex Fridman (43:22.880)

To even access the mechanism for dispute

Michael Malice (43:25.640)

is going to be exorbitant and price poor people

Lex Fridman (43:27.740)

out of the market for conflict resolution immediately.

Lex Fridman (43:30.980)

So right away, you have something

Lex Fridman (43:32.240)

that's extremely regressive.

Lex Fridman (43:34.640)

And even though this is touted as some great equalizer,

Lex Fridman (43:37.520)

it's quite the opposite.

Lex Fridman (43:38.780)

So in current society, there's deep suspicion

Lex Fridman (43:41.140)

of governments and states.

Michael Malice (43:43.260)

Not really.

Lex Fridman (43:44.800)

Like just your example of Macy's,

Michael Malice (43:46.640)

I mean, don't you think a Hitler could rise

Lex Fridman (43:49.400)

to be at the top of a social network

Lex Fridman (43:51.600)

like Twitter and Facebook?

Lex Fridman (43:53.180)

Okay, let's suppose Hitler ran Twitter, okay?

Michael Malice (43:56.320)

Let's take this thought experiment seriously.

Lex Fridman (43:58.440)

Literally what could he do?

Lex Fridman (43:59.760)

So the only tweets are gonna be

Lex Fridman (44:01.240)

about how much the Jews suck, right?

Michael Malice (44:02.760)

Okay, fine.

Lex Fridman (44:04.400)

Okay, all the cool people are leaving.

Michael Malice (44:07.040)

There could be some compelling,

Lex Fridman (44:09.560)

like you said, evil people are charming.

Michael Malice (44:12.920)

There could be some compelling narratives

Lex Fridman (44:14.620)

that could be with conspiracy theories, untruths,

Michael Malice (44:18.920)

that could be spread like propaganda.

Lex Fridman (44:22.340)

Every criticism of anarchism is in fact a description.

Michael Malice (44:25.560)

Well, the strongest criticism of anarchism

Lex Fridman (44:27.460)

are in fact descriptions of status quo.

Michael Malice (44:29.400)

Your concern is, under anarchism, propaganda would spread

Lex Fridman (44:34.160)

and people would be taught the wrong ideas,

Lex Fridman (44:36.080)

unlike the status quo?

Lex Fridman (44:37.680)

That's not even a criticism of anarchism.

Michael Malice (44:39.960)

I'm not actually criticizing.

Lex Fridman (44:41.560)

It's an open question of,

Michael Malice (44:45.720)

it's an open question of in which system

Lex Fridman (44:48.360)

will human nature be able to thrive more

Lex Fridman (44:54.280)

and in which system would the evils

Lex Fridman (44:57.480)

that arise in human nature

Lex Fridman (44:59.240)

would be more easily suppressible?

Lex Fridman (45:02.000)

That's the open question.

Michael Malice (45:03.320)

It's a scientific experiment

Lex Fridman (45:05.000)

and I'm asking only from my perspective

Michael Malice (45:07.280)

of the fact that we've tried democracy

Lex Fridman (45:10.400)

quite a bit recently and maybe you can correct me,

Michael Malice (45:14.280)

we haven't yet seriously tried anarchy on a large scale.

Lex Fridman (45:18.000)

Well, we don't need to try to,

Lex Fridman (45:19.680)

so anarchy isn't like a country, right?

Lex Fridman (45:21.520)

It's like saying, well, if anarchy works,

Lex Fridman (45:25.320)

how come we've never had an anarchist government, right?

Lex Fridman (45:27.280)

So anarchism is a relationship

Lex Fridman (45:29.620)

and language is an example of this.

Lex Fridman (45:31.140)

It's a worldwide anarchic system.

Michael Malice (45:32.720)

You and I have an anarchist relationship.

Lex Fridman (45:34.000)

There's almost no circumstances

Michael Malice (45:35.400)

that we'd be calling the police on each other.

Lex Fridman (45:37.720)

I mean, I'm asking the same question

Michael Malice (45:39.880)

in a bunch of different directions

Lex Fridman (45:41.720)

out of, born out of my curiosity,

Michael Malice (45:44.360)

is why is anarchy going to be better

Lex Fridman (45:49.280)

at preventing the darker sides of human nature,

Michael Malice (45:52.000)

which presumably your criticism of government.

Lex Fridman (45:54.720)

Because of decentralization.

Lex Fridman (45:56.820)

So the darker side of human nature is an extreme concern.

Lex Fridman (46:00.160)

Anyone who says it's gonna go away

Michael Malice (46:01.800)

is absurd and fallacious.

Lex Fridman (46:04.120)

I think that's a nonstarter

Michael Malice (46:05.260)

when people say that everyone's gonna be good.

Lex Fridman (46:07.220)

Human beings are basically animals.

Michael Malice (46:08.660)

We're capable of great beauty and kindness.

Lex Fridman (46:10.840)

We're capable of just complete cruel

Lex Fridman (46:13.660)

and what we would call inhumanity,

Lex Fridman (46:15.320)

but we see it on a daily basis even today.

Lex Fridman (46:17.920)

And what's interesting is the corporate press

Lex Fridman (46:21.340)

won't even tell you the darkest aspects

Michael Malice (46:23.680)

because that's too upsetting to people.

Lex Fridman (46:25.320)

So they'll tell you about atrocities and horrors,

Lex Fridman (46:27.700)

but only to a point.

Lex Fridman (46:29.320)

And then when you actually do the homework,

Michael Malice (46:31.020)

you're like, oh, it's so much worse than,

Lex Fridman (46:32.600)

like that thing about Stalin, right?

Lex Fridman (46:34.120)

So we know in a broad sense that Stalin was a dictator.

Lex Fridman (46:38.040)

We know that he killed a lot of people,

Lex Fridman (46:41.080)

but it takes work to learn about the Holodomor.

Lex Fridman (46:44.040)

It takes work to learn about

Lex Fridman (46:45.540)

what those literal tortures were

Lex Fridman (46:47.640)

and that this is the person who later,

Michael Malice (46:49.680)

FDR and Harry Truman were shaking hands with

Lex Fridman (46:52.320)

and taking photos with

Lex Fridman (46:53.360)

and was being sold to us as Uncle Joe.

Lex Fridman (46:55.600)

He's just like you and me.

Lex Fridman (46:57.820)

So when you have a decentralized information network

Lex Fridman (47:03.260)

as opposed to having three media networks,

Michael Malice (47:06.040)

it is a lot easier for information

Lex Fridman (47:08.560)

that doesn't fit what would be

Michael Malice (47:09.900)

the corporate America narrative to reach the populations.

Lex Fridman (47:13.840)

And it would be more effective for democracy

Michael Malice (47:16.380)

because they're in a much better position to be informed.

Lex Fridman (47:18.400)

Now, you're right.

Michael Malice (47:20.220)

It also means, well, if everyone has a mic,

Lex Fridman (47:22.260)

that means every crazy person and with their wacky views.

Lex Fridman (47:25.560)

And at a certain point, yeah, it has to become,

Lex Fridman (47:28.480)

then there's another level,

Michael Malice (47:29.660)

which is then the people have to be self enforcing.

Lex Fridman (47:32.120)

And you see that in social media all the time

Michael Malice (47:34.040)

where someone says this, the other person jumps in.

Lex Fridman (47:37.240)

You think, but isn't social media a good example of this?

Lex Fridman (47:40.600)

So you think ultimately without centralized control,

Lex Fridman (47:44.960)

you can have stability?

Lex Fridman (47:48.720)

What about the mob outrage and the mob rule,

Lex Fridman (47:52.280)

the power of the mobs that emerge?

Michael Malice (47:54.800)

Power of the mob is a very serious concern.

Lex Fridman (47:58.720)

Gustav Le Bon wrote a book in the 1890s called The Crowd.

Lex Fridman (48:01.480)

And this was one of the most important books I've written

Lex Fridman (48:03.440)

because it influenced both Mussolini and Hitler and Stalin

Lex Fridman (48:05.960)

and they all talked about it.

Lex Fridman (48:07.360)

And he made the point that under crowd psychology,

Michael Malice (48:11.040)

human lynching is another example of this.

Lex Fridman (48:13.480)

None of those individuals or very few

Michael Malice (48:16.100)

would ever dream of doing these acts.

Lex Fridman (48:19.520)

But when they're all together

Lex Fridman (48:21.160)

and you lose that sense of self, you become the ant

Lex Fridman (48:23.680)

and you lose that sense of individually,

Michael Malice (48:25.740)

you're capable of doing things that like in another context,

Lex Fridman (48:29.120)

you'd be like, I should kill myself, I'm a monster.

Lex Fridman (48:32.280)

So you're worried about that, but doesn't the mob have more

Lex Fridman (48:36.160)

power under anarchy?

Michael Malice (48:37.560)

No, the mob has much less power in anarchy

Lex Fridman (48:39.840)

because under anarchism, every individual

Michael Malice (48:41.880)

is fully empowered.

Lex Fridman (48:43.360)

You wouldn't have gun restrictions.

Michael Malice (48:47.960)

You would have people creating communities

Lex Fridman (48:50.040)

based on shared values.

Michael Malice (48:51.820)

They'd be much more collegial, they'd be much more kind,

Lex Fridman (48:55.000)

as opposed to when you're forcing people

Michael Malice (48:57.520)

to be together in a polity

Lex Fridman (48:59.400)

when they don't have things in common.

Michael Malice (49:01.360)

That is like having a bad roommate.

Lex Fridman (49:03.720)

If you're forced to look like jails,

Michael Malice (49:06.120)

if you're forced to be locked in a room with someone,

Lex Fridman (49:09.920)

even if you had first liked them,

Michael Malice (49:11.480)

after a while, you're going to start to hate them

Lex Fridman (49:13.480)

and that leads to very nefarious consequences.

Lex Fridman (49:16.800)

So as an anarchist, what do you do in a society like this?

Lex Fridman (49:21.160)

Thrive.

Michael Malice (49:22.720)

I think I'm doing okay.

Lex Fridman (49:24.720)

No, I mean, there's an election coming up.

Michael Malice (49:29.720)

There's, as you talk, You're Welcome

Lex Fridman (49:36.080)

is one of the 15 shows that you host.

Michael Malice (49:40.080)

It's down to one.

Lex Fridman (49:44.120)

Okay, it's down to one.

Lex Fridman (49:46.020)

But I'm a big fan.

Lex Fridman (49:49.440)

You talk about libertarianism a little bit.

Michael Malice (49:52.440)

I mean, is there some practical political direction

Lex Fridman (49:57.440)

in terms of we as a society should go?

Michael Malice (50:01.160)

I don't mean we as a nation.

Lex Fridman (50:03.000)

I mean, we as a collective of people

Michael Malice (50:04.640)

should go to make a better world

Lex Fridman (50:07.520)

from an anarchist point of view.

Michael Malice (50:09.200)

Sure, I think politics is the enemy and anything.

Lex Fridman (50:13.680)

How do you define politics?

Michael Malice (50:14.680)

The state, the government.

Lex Fridman (50:16.340)

So anything that lessens its sway on people,

Michael Malice (50:19.960)

anything that delegitimizes it is good.

Lex Fridman (50:23.440)

I wrote an article a few years ago

Michael Malice (50:25.400)

about how wonderful it is that Trump

Lex Fridman (50:27.620)

is regarded as such a buffoon

Michael Malice (50:29.900)

because it's very, very useful

Lex Fridman (50:32.080)

to have a commander in chief who's regarded as a clown

Michael Malice (50:35.160)

because it's gonna take a lot

Lex Fridman (50:37.280)

to get him to convince your kids to go overseas

Lex Fridman (50:39.920)

and start killing people and making widows and orphans,

Lex Fridman (50:42.320)

as well as those kids coming home in caskets.

Michael Malice (50:44.440)

Whereas if someone is regarded with prestige

Lex Fridman (50:47.200)

and they're like, oh, we need to send your kid overseas.

Michael Malice (50:49.680)

Oh, absolutely.

Lex Fridman (50:50.920)

I mean, this guy's great.

Lex Fridman (50:52.340)

So that is a very healthy thing

Lex Fridman (50:54.440)

where people are skeptical of the state.

Lex Fridman (50:57.120)

But there's a lot of people that regard him

Lex Fridman (51:01.080)

as one of the greatest leaders we've ever had.

Michael Malice (51:04.640)

Yeah, Dinesh D'Souza, he's another Lincoln.

Lex Fridman (51:08.560)

When you talk shit about Trump

Michael Malice (51:10.440)

or talk shit about Biden,

Lex Fridman (51:14.840)

I'm trying to find a line to walk

Michael Malice (51:16.840)

where they don't immediately put you into

Lex Fridman (51:19.720)

this person has Trump derangement syndrome

Michael Malice (51:21.600)

or they have the alternative to that.

Lex Fridman (51:25.240)

I'm more than happy

Michael Malice (51:27.100)

when people are preemptively dismissing me

Lex Fridman (51:29.480)

because then I don't have to waste time engaging with them

Michael Malice (51:31.600)

because those people would be of no use to me.

Lex Fridman (51:33.640)

When I was on Tim Pool recently, Tim Pool's show,

Michael Malice (51:36.540)

Tim Pool's known for his little hat.

Lex Fridman (51:38.740)

I got a propeller beanie motorized

Lex Fridman (51:40.520)

and it was just spinning the whole two hours.

Lex Fridman (51:42.560)

I know, like a 1950s thing.

Michael Malice (51:44.280)

The point being I wore it because there's lots of people

Lex Fridman (51:47.480)

who would say, I can't take seriously someone

Michael Malice (51:50.080)

who wears a hat like that.

Lex Fridman (51:51.400)

And my point being, if you are the kind of person

Michael Malice (51:53.640)

who takes your cues based on someone's wardrobe

Lex Fridman (51:56.680)

as opposed to the content of your ideas,

Michael Malice (51:58.560)

you're of no use to me as an ally.

Lex Fridman (52:01.200)

So I'd be more than happy you preemptively abort

Michael Malice (52:04.600)

rather than waste our breath trying to engage.

Lex Fridman (52:07.220)

This is a very, very deep thing that you and I disagree on,

Michael Malice (52:10.200)

which is, this goes to the trolling versus the love,

Lex Fridman (52:14.500)

is I believe that person instinctually dismisses you

Michael Malice (52:19.040)

on the very basic surface level.

Lex Fridman (52:21.320)

But deep down, there's a wealth of a human being

Michael Malice (52:27.600)

that seeks the connection, seeks to understand deeply

Lex Fridman (52:32.320)

to connect with other humans that we should speak to.

Michael Malice (52:36.000)

Yeah, you and I completely disagree.

Lex Fridman (52:38.200)

See, you're saying.

Michael Malice (52:40.040)

I'm saying there's no mind there literally.

Lex Fridman (52:42.400)

Okay, so I naturally think the majority of people

Michael Malice (52:47.400)

have the capacity to be thoughtful, intelligent,

Lex Fridman (52:55.440)

and learn about ideas, ideas that they instinctually

Michael Malice (53:01.960)

based on their own current inner circle disagree with

Lex Fridman (53:07.200)

and learn to understand, to empathize with the other.

Lex Fridman (53:10.160)

And in the current climate,

Lex Fridman (53:13.480)

there's a divisiveness that discourages that.

Lex Fridman (53:15.680)

And that's where I see the value of love of encouraging

Lex Fridman (53:20.680)

people to strip away that surface instinctual response

Michael Malice (53:27.280)

based on the thing they've been taught,

Lex Fridman (53:29.480)

based on the things they listen to,

Michael Malice (53:31.120)

to actually think deeply.

Lex Fridman (53:32.560)

Have you ever had gone to CVS or Duane Reade

Lex Fridman (53:36.880)

and your bill, how much you owe them is $6,

Lex Fridman (53:40.240)

and you give them a $10 bill in a single

Lex Fridman (53:42.240)

and watch the look on their face?

Lex Fridman (53:44.520)

You watch them void their bowels and panic

Michael Malice (53:46.760)

because you've given them $11 on a $6 bill.

Lex Fridman (53:49.600)

This is not a mind capable or interested

Michael Malice (53:52.560)

in thoughts and ideas and learning.

Lex Fridman (53:54.280)

No, you're talking about the first moment

Michael Malice (53:57.000)

of a first moment where there's an opportunity to think.

Lex Fridman (54:02.440)

They are desperate to avoid it.

Michael Malice (54:05.640)

No, they're just, it's.

Lex Fridman (54:07.080)

And incapable of it.

Michael Malice (54:08.720)

I just, they have the same exact experiences

Lex Fridman (54:12.480)

I have every single day when I know it's time

Michael Malice (54:15.120)

for me to go out on a run of five miles

Lex Fridman (54:18.040)

or six miles or 10 miles.

Michael Malice (54:20.320)

I'm desperate to avoid it, and at the same time,

Lex Fridman (54:24.320)

I know I have the capacity to do it,

Lex Fridman (54:26.520)

and I'm deeply fulfilled when I do do it,

Lex Fridman (54:28.960)

when I do overcome that challenge.

Michael Malice (54:30.360)

You are one of the great minds of our generation.

Lex Fridman (54:33.200)

You are telling me that any of these people

Lex Fridman (54:35.080)

can do anything close to the work you do?

Lex Fridman (54:38.200)

Not in artificial intelligence,

Lex Fridman (54:39.800)

but in the ability to be compassionate

Lex Fridman (54:45.280)

towards other people's ideas,

Michael Malice (54:48.320)

like understand them enough to be able.

Lex Fridman (54:50.440)

Passion requires a certain baseline of intelligence,

Michael Malice (54:53.360)

because you have to perceive other people

Lex Fridman (54:54.680)

as being different but of value.

Michael Malice (54:56.040)

Yeah, exactly.

Lex Fridman (54:56.880)

That's a sophisticated mindset.

Michael Malice (54:59.520)

I think most people are capable of it.

Lex Fridman (55:03.240)

You don't think so?

Michael Malice (55:04.080)

No, and nor are they interested in it.

Lex Fridman (55:06.720)

But in that kind of,

Michael Malice (55:08.920)

if you don't believe they're capable of it,

Lex Fridman (55:11.760)

how can anarchy be stable?

Michael Malice (55:15.040)

If you have a farm, there's one farmer and 50 cows,

Lex Fridman (55:18.200)

it's very stable.

Michael Malice (55:19.480)

You're just not, you're not asking the cows

Lex Fridman (55:21.480)

where to farm things.

Michael Malice (55:25.240)

Yeah, but the cows aren't intelligent enough to do damage.

Lex Fridman (55:29.560)

Cows certainly, bulls,

Michael Malice (55:31.520)

because they could do a lot of damage.

Lex Fridman (55:32.400)

They could trample things, they could attack you.

Lex Fridman (55:34.800)

Cows are like, how much do they weigh, like 4,000 pounds?

Lex Fridman (55:36.960)

Can you connect the analogy then?

Michael Malice (55:38.480)

Because like.

Lex Fridman (55:39.320)

Sure, you can't expect that.

Michael Malice (55:41.120)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (55:41.960)

Saying a cow is a cow isn't a slur.

Michael Malice (55:44.640)

It's not saying you hate cows.

Lex Fridman (55:46.000)

Cows, or even, let's say,

Lex Fridman (55:47.640)

the example I always use with good reason is dogs, okay?

Lex Fridman (55:51.440)

I always say to study how human beings operate,

Michael Malice (55:53.680)

watch Cesar Millan,

Lex Fridman (55:55.120)

because human beings and dogs have co evolved.

Michael Malice (55:57.080)

Our minds have both evolved in parallel tracks

Lex Fridman (55:59.480)

to communicate with each other.

Michael Malice (56:00.880)

Dogs are, can be vicious.

Lex Fridman (56:03.520)

Dogs for the most part are great, wonderful,

Lex Fridman (56:06.320)

but you can't expect the dog

Lex Fridman (56:08.760)

to understand certain concepts.

Michael Malice (56:11.280)

It's not an, and now most people are offended.

Lex Fridman (56:13.040)

Are you saying I'm like a dog?

Michael Malice (56:14.160)

If you're a dog person like I am,

Lex Fridman (56:15.880)

this is actually a huge compliment.

Michael Malice (56:17.080)

Most dogs are better than most people,

Lex Fridman (56:19.800)

but to get the idea that this is something

Michael Malice (56:22.960)

that is basically your peer is nonsensical.

Lex Fridman (56:26.640)

Now, of course this sounds arrogant and elitist

Lex Fridman (56:28.400)

and so on and so forth,

Lex Fridman (56:29.560)

and I'm perfectly happy with that,

Lex Fridman (56:31.320)

but it is very hard to persuade me or anyone

Lex Fridman (56:34.480)

that if you walk, George Carlin has that joke,

Michael Malice (56:36.480)

think how smart the average person is,

Lex Fridman (56:37.960)

then realize 50% of people are dumber than that.

Michael Malice (56:40.400)

If you walk around and see who's out there,

Lex Fridman (56:42.200)

these people are very kind.

Michael Malice (56:43.800)

They are of value.

Lex Fridman (56:45.080)

They deserve to be treated with respect.

Michael Malice (56:47.800)

They deserve to be secure in their person.

Lex Fridman (56:49.880)

They deserve to feel safe and to have love,

Lex Fridman (56:52.840)

but the expectation that they should have

Lex Fridman (56:56.360)

any sort of semblance of power over me or my life

Michael Malice (56:59.240)

is as nonsensical as asking Lassie to be my accountant.

Lex Fridman (57:03.120)

So, but that goes to power,

Michael Malice (57:05.960)

that not to the ability, the capacity

Lex Fridman (57:09.880)

to be empathetic, compassionate, intelligent.

Lex Fridman (57:12.880)

What, if I were to try to prove you wrong?

Lex Fridman (57:16.160)

That's a good question, okay.

Lex Fridman (57:17.880)

What would you be impressed by about society?

Lex Fridman (57:24.080)

How would I show it to you?

Michael Malice (57:25.720)

That's a good question.

Lex Fridman (57:26.560)

How would you show it to me?

Michael Malice (57:27.400)

Because I think something has to be falsifiable

Lex Fridman (57:28.960)

if you're gonna make a claim, right?

Lex Fridman (57:30.680)

So what would it?

Lex Fridman (57:33.960)

Because we both made claims

Michael Malice (57:35.400)

that aren't a kind of our own like interpretation

Lex Fridman (57:39.040)

based on our interaction.

Michael Malice (57:40.760)

Like when I opened Twitter, everyone seems to say.

Lex Fridman (57:43.640)

Why do you only follow one person?

Lex Fridman (57:44.800)

Who do you follow?

Lex Fridman (57:45.640)

Who's the one person you follow?

Michael Malice (57:46.800)

Stoic Emperor.

Lex Fridman (57:48.040)

I follow a lot of people.

Michael Malice (57:49.640)

I have a script.

Lex Fridman (57:50.640)

I have a script that I have an entire interface.

Lex Fridman (57:55.880)

So I think Twitter is really.

Lex Fridman (57:58.760)

This is real love.

Michael Malice (57:59.760)

It's not ironic love.

Lex Fridman (58:00.920)

I love watching it and I'm sure you do too.

Michael Malice (58:04.200)

I love watching a quality mind at work

Lex Fridman (58:06.360)

because when someone has a quality mind,

Michael Malice (58:08.260)

they're often not self aware.

Lex Fridman (58:10.360)

I catch this on myself of how it operates

Lex Fridman (58:12.780)

and then when other people see it,

Lex Fridman (58:13.920)

they're like, oh my God, this is so beautiful

Michael Malice (58:15.440)

because there's such an innocence to it.

Lex Fridman (58:17.340)

But like when I opened Twitter, I'm energized.

Michael Malice (58:21.760)

There's a lot of love on Twitter.

Lex Fridman (58:23.160)

People say like.

Michael Malice (58:24.080)

I love Twitter.

Lex Fridman (58:24.920)

I agree.

Lex Fridman (58:25.740)

You don't think I have a lot of love on Twitter?

Lex Fridman (58:27.060)

My fans pay my rent.

Michael Malice (58:29.000)

I mean, I don't know your experience of Twitter,

Lex Fridman (58:32.400)

but when I look at your,

Michael Malice (58:33.440)

which is a fundamentally different thing.

Lex Fridman (58:35.560)

I'm saying my experience from the.

Lex Fridman (58:37.560)

So maybe you can tell me what your experience

Lex Fridman (58:39.320)

is like as a human.

Lex Fridman (58:40.360)

So when I observe your Twitter,

Lex Fridman (58:43.040)

I think, I wouldn't call it love.

Michael Malice (58:48.040)

I would call it fun.

Lex Fridman (58:50.440)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (58:51.280)

And because of that, that's a different kind of,

Lex Fridman (58:54.680)

that like love emerges from that

Michael Malice (58:56.840)

because people kind of learn that we're having,

Lex Fridman (59:00.500)

this is like game night, like.

Michael Malice (59:02.360)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (59:03.780)

You know, we can talk shit a little bit.

Michael Malice (59:06.320)

We can, and you can even like pull in,

Lex Fridman (59:10.400)

you can make fun of people.

Michael Malice (59:11.600)

You can have the crazy uncle come over

Lex Fridman (59:13.760)

that is a huge Trump supporter,

Michael Malice (59:16.720)

somebody who hates Trump and you can have a little fun.

Lex Fridman (59:19.480)

I get it.

Michael Malice (59:20.320)

It's a different kind of thing.

Lex Fridman (59:21.140)

I wouldn't be able to be the,

Michael Malice (59:25.340)

you're the host of game night.

Lex Fridman (59:26.840)

Yes, yes.

Lex Fridman (59:27.680)

So I wouldn't be able to host that kind of game night.

Lex Fridman (59:30.240)

I imagine you programming your robots

Lex Fridman (59:32.840)

and you're asking what is fun

Lex Fridman (59:34.300)

and it just starts sparking.

Michael Malice (59:35.640)

Yeah, exactly.

Lex Fridman (59:37.300)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (59:38.140)

What is fun?

Lex Fridman (59:38.960)

So the robots in my life that survive

Michael Malice (59:42.480)

are the ones that don't,

Lex Fridman (59:45.680)

that like survive that whole programming process.

Lex Fridman (59:49.820)

So they're kind of like,

Lex Fridman (59:51.140)

they're kind of like the idiot from Dostoevsky,

Michael Malice (59:52.880)

they're very like simple minded robots.

Lex Fridman (59:56.880)

Fun is moving a can from one table to another.