Kelsi Sheren: War, Artillery, PTSD, and Love
音乐与艺术政治与社会心理与人性历史与文明技术与编程
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🔑 关键词
dongoinggotdidnsaidfuckingwentdoingputwasnwartalkingbettersomebodyfiretalkgettingpersonguysstuff
💬 精彩语录
"So we're called the Royal Canadian Horse Artillery because the Queen made us Royal Canadian Artillery."
所以我们被称为加拿大皇家马炮兵，因为女王让我们成为加拿大皇家炮兵。
— Kelsi Sheren （36:43.780）
"And it's like, you think that was like a teleprompter or something, like the way he does his podcast."
就像，你认为这就像提词器之类的东西，就像他做播客的方式一样。
— Kelsi Sheren （3:03:53.700）
"I mean, this may be fast forwards to our conversation a little bit, but is there predictable strategies"
我的意思是，这可能会快进到我们的对话中，但是有可预测的策略吗
— Kelsi Sheren （1:15:30.580）
🎙️ 完整对话（4590 条）
Lex Fridman (00:00.000)
The following is a conversation with Kelsey Sharon, Canadian Forces veteran, artillery
以下是与加拿大退伍军人、炮兵凯尔西·沙龙的对话
Lex Fridman (00:05.200)
gunner who served in Afghanistan at 18 years old and came home with severe PTSD.
18 岁时在阿富汗服役的炮手，回家后患有严重的创伤后应激障碍 (PTSD)。
Lex Fridman (00:11.960)
She went on to found Brass in Unity which creates unique jewellery, large part of the
她继续在 Unity 中创立了 Brass，创造了独特的珠宝，其中很大一部分是
Lex Fridman (00:16.800)
proceeds from which go to help rehabilitate the lives, limbs and mental health of veterans
所得收益将用于帮助退伍军人恢复生命、四肢和心理健康
Lex Fridman (00:23.160)
and first responders.
和急救人员。
Kelsi Sheren (00:25.040)
She has a big personality, big heart and an intense passion for life.
她性格开朗，心胸宽广，对生活充满热情。
Lex Fridman (00:30.160)
So when our paths happened to cross, I knew we needed to talk.
因此，当我们的道路碰巧交叉时，我知道我们需要谈谈。
Kelsi Sheren (00:35.400)
This is the Lex Friedman Podcast, to support it please check out our sponsors in the description.
这是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客，要支持它，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。
Lex Fridman (00:40.880)
And now here's my conversation with Kelsey Sharon.
现在这是我与凯尔西·莎伦的对话。
Kelsi Sheren (00:45.520)
You mentioned that studying history had a big impact on you and that your grandfather
你提到学习历史对你影响很大，你的祖父
Lex Fridman (00:49.560)
was a World War II vet.
是一名二战老兵。
Lex Fridman (00:52.120)
So people that have gone through World War II, in my family too, they don't seem to talk
所以经历过二战的人，在我家里也是如此，他们似乎不说话
Lex Fridman (00:55.960)
about it much.
关于它很多。
Kelsi Sheren (00:56.960)
Like the worse the tragedy, the less they talk about it.
就像悲剧越严重，他们谈论的就越少。
Kelsi Sheren (01:00.520)
I mean it's understandable, I can respect that, but I don't think people fully understood
我的意思是这是可以理解的，我可以尊重这一点，但我认为人们还没有完全理解
Kelsi Sheren (01:06.140)
the value in human stories over time and sharing that, that certain civilizations don't have
随着时间的推移，人类故事的价值和分享是某些文明所不具备的
Lex Fridman (01:13.920)
written language.
书面语言。
Kelsi Sheren (01:15.420)
The value in that being passed down is extraordinary, but we didn't really have that with the World
传承下来的价值是非凡的，但我们并没有真正拥有这个世界
Lex Fridman (01:21.540)
War II vets it seems like.
看起来像是二战老兵。
Kelsi Sheren (01:23.160)
Well, they kind of want to protect you from the pain.
嗯，他们有点想保护你免受痛苦。
Kelsi Sheren (01:27.240)
My grandmother went through Holland and Moore, which is the Ukrainian starvation of millions
Kelsi Sheren (01:32.360)
of people, and then obviously went through World War II with the Nazi occupation.
Lex Fridman (01:39.800)
And same on the grandfather's side who, on my dad's side, grandfather fought in World
Kelsi Sheren (01:46.440)
War II.
Lex Fridman (01:47.440)
So they seem to not want to talk about those experiences to protect you from the suffering,
Kelsi Sheren (01:53.280)
to protect you from the evil that they've experienced, which is sad because the lessons
Lex Fridman (01:59.540)
from that history are not then propagated through you.
Lex Fridman (02:02.840)
And also there's something about the strength you carry with you knowing that that's in
Lex Fridman (02:07.320)
your blood.
Kelsi Sheren (02:08.320)
Those great heroes are in your blood and that's suffering, overcoming that suffering is in
Lex Fridman (02:11.920)
your blood.
Kelsi Sheren (02:12.920)
I would argue that's exactly correct.
Kelsi Sheren (02:15.160)
If you have someone you know that comes from your lineage that has done something super
Kelsi Sheren (02:20.760)
gnarly, that's just been a badass and in so many different ways, you want to know about
Lex Fridman (02:26.000)
that person.
Kelsi Sheren (02:27.000)
You have that person's blood in you.
Kelsi Sheren (02:28.160)
That's important to acknowledge and when that isn't shared, I feel like it's just a detriment
Kelsi Sheren (02:32.680)
to that individual.
Lex Fridman (02:33.680)
What do you make of World War II?
Kelsi Sheren (02:36.960)
In terms of history, do you think about those kinds of wars where two times more civilians
Lex Fridman (02:43.180)
died than the number of military personnel?
Lex Fridman (02:47.680)
So most of the war is basically just the death of civilians and the invasion of homes, the
Lex Fridman (02:54.040)
burning of homes, the bombing of homes, all of that.
Kelsi Sheren (02:57.080)
World War II for me, I find that was the first experience where I became just obsessed with
Lex Fridman (03:06.720)
history.
Kelsi Sheren (03:08.080)
World War II really did it for me.
Kelsi Sheren (03:10.640)
I'm not sure if it's because of the dramatization of film and TV and the way that our generation
Kelsi Sheren (03:17.920)
has looked at it, but for me, it was more than that.
Kelsi Sheren (03:21.800)
I felt a deep connection to it and I still can't figure out why, like a pull almost.
Kelsi Sheren (03:28.440)
People joke around about those past lives and those things or those connections and
Kelsi Sheren (03:32.520)
there's something deeper within me that feels a pull towards that and I'm not quite sure
Kelsi Sheren (03:38.100)
if it's because I had family that escaped Hungary once the Soviets came in, so thanks
Kelsi Sheren (03:44.280)
for that, or if it was because my grandfather served in it or for whatever reason, I have
Kelsi Sheren (03:51.840)
this pull to it.
Lex Fridman (03:52.840)
And so when you think about the mass casualty of the civilian population, that's very difficult
Kelsi Sheren (03:59.840)
for me to wrap my brain around after being in a war and seeing when you have a small
Kelsi Sheren (04:05.280)
subset of civilians die, how much of an impact that has on that community right there in
Kelsi Sheren (04:10.080)
just a tiny area.
Lex Fridman (04:12.640)
So to try to wrap my brain around what happened in Europe and all across and all of that,
Kelsi Sheren (04:17.480)
I really struggle with that because I don't know that I can comprehend what that would
Lex Fridman (04:22.680)
truly mean to somebody if I didn't experience it or see it for what it is.
Lex Fridman (04:28.000)
Does that make sense?
Lex Fridman (04:29.000)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (04:30.000)
So first of all, you're right, a lot of people are drawn to World War II for different reasons.
Kelsi Sheren (04:34.940)
The one is Hitler and Stalin trying to understand how it's possible to have that scale of evil
Kelsi Sheren (04:43.280)
in very different flavors of evil.
Lex Fridman (04:46.160)
It's almost fascinating that human nature can allow for that.
Lex Fridman (04:49.200)
And then also it's fascinating that so many people can follow leaders like that with a
Lex Fridman (04:54.200)
pride and with a love of country.
Lex Fridman (04:57.940)
And that's like, it's almost like this weird experiment, it's like, wow, I wonder if I'm
Lex Fridman (05:03.800)
made from the same cloth as those people.
Kelsi Sheren (05:07.920)
Like would I be a good German if I lived in Germany and was, you know, during the time
Lex Fridman (05:14.800)
of Hitler?
Kelsi Sheren (05:15.800)
Would I believe that Germany has been done wrong, I'm Jewish by the way, which makes
Kelsi Sheren (05:21.040)
me a little bit more comfortable talking about this, is would I believe in the dream sold
Kelsi Sheren (05:28.120)
by a charismatic dictator who says that wrongs have been done and we need to correct those
Lex Fridman (05:34.240)
wrongs?
Kelsi Sheren (05:35.240)
That to me, this is the compelling thing that draws me to World War II, the human nature
Lex Fridman (05:40.720)
question.
Kelsi Sheren (05:41.720)
I would agree with you on that.
Lex Fridman (05:42.880)
I think there's a way to look at people like that.
Lex Fridman (05:45.360)
And at that time there was no real, well, there wasn't a full understanding of the psyche
Kelsi Sheren (05:50.920)
the way that we're starting to, I mean, we still don't understand any of it, but it seems
Kelsi Sheren (05:56.520)
like the time gap back then, there was no real understanding of sociopaths and narcissists
Lex Fridman (06:03.940)
and psychopaths and really what those traits were.
Lex Fridman (06:07.280)
And I feel like people will follow blindly if they're given a good enough reason.
Kelsi Sheren (06:12.520)
Well, if you have an individual who is ranting and screaming at the top of his lungs in the
Kelsi Sheren (06:18.480)
middle of these town squares and he's getting this attention, it's human nature to want
Lex Fridman (06:23.580)
to understand and be a part of a group mentality.
Kelsi Sheren (06:27.520)
It's human nature to want to fit in.
Lex Fridman (06:29.260)
And so I don't know if it's more of people were at the beginning were just, this is the
Kelsi Sheren (06:35.080)
cool thing to do.
Lex Fridman (06:36.860)
Or if it was, they were genuinely terrified.
Kelsi Sheren (06:40.760)
Or if there was an aspect that was like, this guy is saying something that resonates with
Lex Fridman (06:44.720)
me.
Kelsi Sheren (06:45.720)
There could be a lot of different things.
Kelsi Sheren (06:47.080)
I think it's unfortunate that we didn't get to, or no one got to really examine this individual's
Kelsi Sheren (06:54.720)
brain and this person and why they thought the way they thought.
Kelsi Sheren (06:58.680)
Because that's always been the biggest thing for me is I'm really curious about why people
Kelsi Sheren (07:02.480)
do what they do, like deeply, deeply curious about it.
Kelsi Sheren (07:07.000)
I'm not sure who's more interesting, the people that follow Hitler or Hitler himself.
Lex Fridman (07:12.040)
So I mean, the question that's coupled with that is, would history roll out in similar
Lex Fridman (07:17.440)
ways even if there wasn't a Hitler?
Lex Fridman (07:20.480)
It's the people that created Hitler or did Hitler create the events of World War II?
Lex Fridman (07:26.320)
I think the people would be more interesting in my opinion.
Kelsi Sheren (07:29.640)
That seems to be the, that the charismatic leaders are all out there.
Kelsi Sheren (07:34.520)
The failed artists in the case of Hitler, they're all out there and it's just when there's
Kelsi Sheren (07:38.840)
this environment of anger and fear, charismatic leaders can take over and it doesn't matter
Lex Fridman (07:46.080)
if they're evil or good.
Kelsi Sheren (07:48.520)
It's like a roll of the dice in terms of history, how evil, how truly insane they are.
Lex Fridman (07:55.480)
I think Stalin was much more cold in calculating.
Kelsi Sheren (08:00.140)
He wasn't as insane as Hitler.
Kelsi Sheren (08:02.000)
Hitler was legitimately insane, like especially later on in the war where he would do irrational
Kelsi Sheren (08:08.480)
actions I would say.
Lex Fridman (08:10.440)
But that's like a weird roll of the dice.
Kelsi Sheren (08:13.640)
You could have gotten a totally different leader.
Kelsi Sheren (08:17.280)
Wanting to take over the entirety of Europe and then invading Russia, that's like insanity.
Kelsi Sheren (08:23.160)
Yeah, just even, just the first part of that wanting to take over Europe, if you really
Kelsi Sheren (08:28.640)
think about the scale, if you really sit down and go, this one individual was like, I want
Kelsi Sheren (08:34.720)
all of this.
Kelsi Sheren (08:35.720)
If you really sat down and you were to sit down and put him in his traits that we know
Kelsi Sheren (08:39.920)
of into any sort of document nowadays that deems somebody a psychopath or a narcissist,
Lex Fridman (08:47.880)
this guy would set it on fire.
Kelsi Sheren (08:50.920)
He himself was so, I think so damaged and he reminds me a lot of people now who struggle
Lex Fridman (08:59.260)
to find their way.
Kelsi Sheren (09:00.260)
He reminds me a lot of angry individuals who are told no, either by women or by business
Lex Fridman (09:06.220)
or by whatever the sector they're in.
Lex Fridman (09:10.680)
He reminds me very much of that like, what's the word I'm looking for?
Kelsi Sheren (09:15.280)
Just that individual who's just like, the world is shit and the world owes me everything.
Kelsi Sheren (09:20.960)
It's that mentality.
Lex Fridman (09:22.360)
He really came from that it seems like.
Lex Fridman (09:25.640)
And when you foster that too long, you get that.
Kelsi Sheren (09:28.360)
There's a book called, what is it, Man From Underground by Dostoevsky, I might be misnaming
Kelsi Sheren (09:34.760)
the book, but it's about the bitterness of a man.
Lex Fridman (09:38.280)
It breeds within his mind and it just grows, that bitterness.
Kelsi Sheren (09:42.120)
I mean, we all have that sort of resenting of the world when you're younger, when you
Lex Fridman (09:48.680)
have a choice.
Kelsi Sheren (09:50.040)
When you fail, do you blame the world or do you hold, it's the Jaco thing, do you carry
Lex Fridman (09:56.960)
the responsibility of that and become a better man or woman because of that?
Kelsi Sheren (10:02.480)
That's the decision.
Lex Fridman (10:03.480)
And in some sense, I mean, unfortunately, see that's because he took responsibility
Lex Fridman (10:09.840)
and leadership.
Lex Fridman (10:10.840)
I know you can't say he wasn't a leader.
Lex Fridman (10:15.120)
So it's not that he's a failure.
Lex Fridman (10:17.400)
He's not a failure, but you can't say he's powerless, did not take action.
Kelsi Sheren (10:23.040)
I think he's just basically a embodiment of the anger and the fear of people at the time.
Lex Fridman (10:29.640)
But the insanity of, obviously, many of my relatives, not just murdering them, but putting
Kelsi Sheren (10:35.080)
them in camps and torturing them, but many of those people, Jewish people, were also
Lex Fridman (10:40.560)
some of the best scientists.
Kelsi Sheren (10:42.040)
The insanity of murdering some of the best Germans, it makes no sense.
Lex Fridman (10:49.640)
So that's why it's fascinating to kind of look back at that time in history and think,
Lex Fridman (10:55.800)
are these the same humans?
Lex Fridman (10:57.800)
And also, are there echoes of that now?
Lex Fridman (11:02.040)
And is that going to happen again?
Lex Fridman (11:04.080)
Is there going to be a World War III in some other kind of way?
Kelsi Sheren (11:08.880)
Is there going to be some mass scale injustice in some other kind of way, which we're not
Kelsi Sheren (11:13.880)
yet, because of our blindness and maybe not learning the lessons of history, will allow
Lex Fridman (11:21.000)
it to happen again?
Lex Fridman (11:23.360)
And then obviously, it's a very common thing to whatever political leader you don't like,
Kelsi Sheren (11:28.040)
to call them Hitler.
Lex Fridman (11:29.040)
Of course.
Kelsi Sheren (11:30.040)
Which is, that to me, I got to tell you, when somebody calls somebody Hitler, the weight
Lex Fridman (11:36.320)
behind that has been completely lost in this generation.
Kelsi Sheren (11:40.320)
This generation does not understand what that truly means to call someone Hitler or a Nazi.
Lex Fridman (11:47.600)
Or Stalin.
Kelsi Sheren (11:48.600)
To be honest, the starvation, I've just been talking to a lot of folks recently, especially
Lex Fridman (11:54.800)
like North Korea, with Wyoming Park, starvation.
Lex Fridman (11:58.120)
And I remember from my grandmother, it wasn't, time and time again, not having food to eat
Lex Fridman (12:06.000)
is the thing that people say is the worst, everything.
Kelsi Sheren (12:10.120)
It's way worse than murder, not having food, and the places that takes your mind and the
Lex Fridman (12:16.280)
actions that forces you to do, that's terrifying.
Lex Fridman (12:19.840)
And all of that seems very distant in our history.
Lex Fridman (12:22.520)
Yeah, I love her.
Kelsi Sheren (12:23.920)
I watched that interview with her.
Kelsi Sheren (12:26.040)
She is, I want to talk to that woman so bad, because when she was on Joe and she sat there
Lex Fridman (12:29.820)
and said, Joe's like, do you, have you done any therapy?
Lex Fridman (12:33.300)
And she laughed.
Kelsi Sheren (12:34.300)
I was like, oh, that's my girl.
Kelsi Sheren (12:36.440)
It's such a fascinating, I mean, I would love for you to kind of talk to her and explore
Kelsi Sheren (12:39.820)
her mind, because we kind of explored her story and that's, there's power and importance
Lex Fridman (12:46.080)
to her story, but it's so difficult to understand, like, how does she become healthier and better?
Kelsi Sheren (12:56.320)
Even more so than she's already, she's, she's recovered quite a bit, you know, she's found
Lex Fridman (13:01.480)
herself quite a bit, but I wonder, is she haunted?
Kelsi Sheren (13:05.600)
You're saying questions I want to ask.
Kelsi Sheren (13:07.040)
Like, that's what I mean, because after being in a war, there are certain things, there
Kelsi Sheren (13:13.320)
are certain atrocities that you see that, it doesn't matter the therapy that you do.
Lex Fridman (13:18.460)
And I don't care what all the special ops guys say, like, I know plenty of them that
Kelsi Sheren (13:21.400)
have a light switch and they turn it off and they can function, but I also know them when
Lex Fridman (13:24.600)
they've been out for 10 years.
Kelsi Sheren (13:26.660)
There's things that haunt people differently, but there's no way, there's not something
Lex Fridman (13:31.740)
going on there deeply.
Kelsi Sheren (13:33.680)
Yeah, but there's also extra levels of complexity in her case because, I mean, this is what,
Kelsi Sheren (13:43.320)
just looking at history about family, is she spent much of her early life loving the dictator,
Lex Fridman (13:52.520)
right?
Lex Fridman (13:53.520)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (13:54.520)
We like the water or something.
Lex Fridman (13:55.520)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (13:56.520)
We like water or we like this because there is no, like, individual, like, when they said
Lex Fridman (13:59.760)
there was no love or anything.
Lex Fridman (14:01.960)
But there is a love for the...
Lex Fridman (14:03.760)
Just that individual.
Kelsi Sheren (14:04.760)
For that individual.
Lex Fridman (14:05.760)
And so, I mean, it's like the ultimate abusive relationship.
Kelsi Sheren (14:09.720)
Oh, yeah.
Lex Fridman (14:12.120)
But it's still love, like you don't know the alternative.
Lex Fridman (14:15.320)
So it's not even, it's complicated because, like, I wonder if she truly explored it what
Kelsi Sheren (14:22.720)
you would find because the trauma, much of her trauma, I think comes from when she was
Kelsi Sheren (14:28.760)
escaping North Korea, treatment by China.
Lex Fridman (14:34.040)
It's like the...
Lex Fridman (14:35.040)
And her mom and what she had to witness within that and being helpless with that on her own.
Lex Fridman (14:39.880)
So it's like evil men essentially abusing her, trading her, you know, and doing so nonchalantly,
Kelsi Sheren (14:45.800)
like it's part of just the way of life that I wonder if she sees kind of, yeah, it's so
Lex Fridman (14:52.000)
complicated because childhood...
Kelsi Sheren (14:54.480)
It would be normal to her because she didn't know any different.
Lex Fridman (14:57.200)
Exactly.
Kelsi Sheren (14:58.200)
Like there's...
Lex Fridman (14:59.200)
Like I grew up poor, but I never sensed that.
Kelsi Sheren (15:04.200)
Because your parents didn't make you.
Lex Fridman (15:05.880)
Well, and everyone else around was too.
Kelsi Sheren (15:08.040)
Right.
Lex Fridman (15:09.040)
And so you don't notice it.
Kelsi Sheren (15:10.040)
I mean, it's a cultural thing.
Lex Fridman (15:11.680)
So the way you grow up, you only start to notice it when you compare yourself to others,
Kelsi Sheren (15:16.480)
when you learn of the alternative.
Lex Fridman (15:18.320)
That's the dark reality when you're abused.
Kelsi Sheren (15:20.560)
You truly begin to suffer in some kind of way when you understand that you were being
Lex Fridman (15:30.120)
abused.
Kelsi Sheren (15:32.520)
That's a dark kind of thought that I wonder if you live your whole life just in that abuse,
Lex Fridman (15:38.720)
if you don't know better, that that's a safer...
Kelsi Sheren (15:41.600)
That's like, what's a better life, suffering and then learning that you were suffering
Lex Fridman (15:48.000)
or just suffering until your last days.
Kelsi Sheren (15:51.040)
There's two ways to look at this.
Kelsi Sheren (15:52.840)
I'd argue on one side that suffering and suffering until you die, you know no different.
Lex Fridman (15:58.640)
So you can't have hope.
Lex Fridman (16:00.040)
You can't have this idea that there's better.
Lex Fridman (16:03.520)
And sometimes that's...
Lex Fridman (16:05.920)
Keep that in its box.
Lex Fridman (16:06.920)
But then if you have kind of what you have with Park where she knows now that there's
Lex Fridman (16:11.920)
different, she knows that there's better, then you run into those.
Lex Fridman (16:15.560)
What is the damage that has been done?
Lex Fridman (16:17.340)
What is going to be passed on as intergenerational trauma?
Kelsi Sheren (16:19.600)
I know she's a mom.
Lex Fridman (16:21.000)
So it's like, now you got to look long term a little bit because now she's an influence
Kelsi Sheren (16:25.120)
on a child.
Lex Fridman (16:26.200)
And there's a positive to looking at both, I would say.
Lex Fridman (16:32.640)
And I know that sounds horrible for the living in trauma your whole life and just not knowing
Lex Fridman (16:36.540)
any better.
Lex Fridman (16:37.960)
But there's...
Kelsi Sheren (16:38.960)
I don't know if that saves the brain and the body and just that overall or if it actually
Kelsi Sheren (16:47.260)
would be better because there's no way to really find that out.
Lex Fridman (16:50.000)
I don't think.
Kelsi Sheren (16:51.000)
Yeah, I think.
Lex Fridman (16:52.000)
But the reality is when you give people hope and you make them realize that they're suffering,
Kelsi Sheren (16:57.160)
you're putting a burden on them.
Lex Fridman (16:58.680)
That's the first step on a long journey.
Lex Fridman (17:00.880)
And so, and obviously now that she knows that the suffering she wants to make people in
Lex Fridman (17:05.440)
North Korea currently suffer less.
Lex Fridman (17:08.720)
And that's an admirable goal.
Kelsi Sheren (17:10.680)
It's what we do to each other is try to like, when you see suffering in the world, you try
Kelsi Sheren (17:16.560)
to make it better and unmask that's probably in a long arc of history going to make for
Lex Fridman (17:23.920)
a better world.
Kelsi Sheren (17:25.080)
I'm hopeful at that idea for North Korea.
Kelsi Sheren (17:28.460)
I'm hopeful for that because you never want to leave individuals suffering when you know
Kelsi Sheren (17:35.320)
that they're actively suffering while you're just living your day to day life in the Western
Kelsi Sheren (17:38.280)
world just out grocery shopping and you see all this food and you know in the back of
Kelsi Sheren (17:42.120)
your mind...
Lex Fridman (17:43.120)
Like that interview fucked me up a little bit, I won't lie.
Lex Fridman (17:45.120)
And I had some of the girls in my office listen to it, they're just bawling.
Kelsi Sheren (17:48.880)
Because we're all parents and there's this idea that not being able to feed our children,
Kelsi Sheren (17:56.640)
just the idea of that damages the psyche.
Lex Fridman (17:59.100)
It brings up the pain in the chest, just the idea of it.
Lex Fridman (18:03.240)
And so going to the grocery store for about a week after that, I just remember standing
Lex Fridman (18:07.120)
there looking and just going, fuck are we doing?
Lex Fridman (18:11.060)
But then there's that snap reality that comes into play and goes, so how do we fix that?
Lex Fridman (18:17.200)
You got to take on China, that's never going to happen.
Lex Fridman (18:21.960)
And the reason that's not going to happen, it's happening again.
Lex Fridman (18:24.520)
So Akhani comes down through Afghanistan, Chinese are all through Afghanistan, Iran
Kelsi Sheren (18:29.280)
makes the deal with China for the roadway to get the oil, well that's done in the blink
Lex Fridman (18:34.560)
of an eye without anyone knowing.
Kelsi Sheren (18:36.560)
There's no way.
Kelsi Sheren (18:37.960)
There's just so much at play with China, they control such a large aspect of our world,
Kelsi Sheren (18:44.000)
unfortunately that to take and free North Korea, a drastic action would have to happen.
Lex Fridman (18:50.840)
And then your people would come in, it would be a mess.
Lex Fridman (18:54.240)
What do you mean your people?
Lex Fridman (18:55.520)
What do you mean your people?
Kelsi Sheren (18:57.000)
Your Russians.
Lex Fridman (18:58.760)
Did you hear what she said about Russians?
Lex Fridman (19:00.600)
Did you hear what she says?
Lex Fridman (19:01.600)
Russians?
Kelsi Sheren (19:02.600)
I love Russians.
Lex Fridman (19:03.600)
You know what I didn't love?
Kelsi Sheren (19:04.600)
The Russian recruiting video that came out, that shit was terrifying.
Lex Fridman (19:07.760)
Did you watch it?
Kelsi Sheren (19:08.760)
No.
Lex Fridman (19:09.760)
I told you about it and of course you didn't watch it.
Kelsi Sheren (19:10.760)
I didn't watch it, I'm sorry.
Kelsi Sheren (19:12.920)
The USA put out a recruiting video and then like a day or two later Russia put one out.
Lex Fridman (19:20.120)
And the recruiting video in the States was an animation of a female soldier with two
Lex Fridman (19:27.260)
moms and she was going to go change the world, right?
Kelsi Sheren (19:31.920)
Russia came out with one.
Kelsi Sheren (19:35.160)
It's like, it's the character from like Rocky essentially and they're guys in the mud and
Kelsi Sheren (19:40.600)
just in the rain just fucking doing pushups, just pushing it out.
Kelsi Sheren (19:43.800)
They're just like, they see their boot, they're just like crushing things and I'm like, and
Kelsi Sheren (19:47.600)
it's all like, and the deep Russian voice, I'm like, oh my God.
Lex Fridman (19:51.800)
Which one is better would you say?
Lex Fridman (19:53.360)
Which bothered you more?
Lex Fridman (19:54.360)
What do you mean by bother, specify.
Lex Fridman (19:58.960)
So deception is a funny thing because when you're young and you're choosing to go to
Lex Fridman (1:00:05.760)
a long linear magazine and it holds like 15 little rounds.
Kelsi Sheren (1:00:09.240)
If you just take that thing out, that thing's not firing.
Lex Fridman (1:00:13.080)
How many people does it take to move that?
Lex Fridman (1:00:14.840)
Like how easy is it to move that thing?
Lex Fridman (1:00:16.440)
To move a triple seven?
Kelsi Sheren (1:00:17.440)
A triple seven.
Lex Fridman (1:00:18.440)
I like it.
Kelsi Sheren (1:00:19.440)
Well that's what they're called.
Lex Fridman (1:00:20.440)
M triple sevens.
Lex Fridman (1:00:21.440)
Is a lot of the terminology crossover the same in English and French?
Lex Fridman (1:00:25.160)
Okay.
Kelsi Sheren (1:00:26.160)
I mean, M triple seven does cause it's an obvious how it's, or I'm sure it has a separate
Lex Fridman (1:00:30.480)
word, but like if you're running it, you're running it in French.
Lex Fridman (1:00:33.500)
So like when I'd be running the, when I'm doing the charge bags and I'm doing, I'm doing,
Kelsi Sheren (1:00:40.160)
you know, I'm loading everything and I'm getting that ready and that's my position that day,
Kelsi Sheren (1:00:43.900)
I'm also controlling the breach.
Lex Fridman (1:00:46.760)
So like how it opens, how it closes when it locks.
Lex Fridman (1:00:50.320)
And so, but you have to yell that as you do it.
Lex Fridman (1:00:52.820)
So you're yelling like, like you have to yell all these things.
Kelsi Sheren (1:00:57.480)
You have to learn them though.
Lex Fridman (1:00:59.100)
And so for a long time, it's, it's, it's, it was a little frustrating.
Kelsi Sheren (1:01:03.480)
I won't lie.
Lex Fridman (1:01:04.480)
It's really exciting.
Kelsi Sheren (1:01:05.480)
I took a lot of French, but I forgot all of it, but I think it's a beautiful romantic
Lex Fridman (1:01:09.880)
language.
Kelsi Sheren (1:01:10.880)
It's a good language.
Lex Fridman (1:01:11.880)
If it's from Quebec, it's a, yeah, that's true.
Kelsi Sheren (1:01:14.040)
It's a good language to fall in love with.
Lex Fridman (1:01:16.320)
Not as good as Russian, but I mean, English is, all right.
Lex Fridman (1:01:21.080)
I mean, Russian, are we really, is that like a love language?
Lex Fridman (1:01:24.280)
It is to me.
Kelsi Sheren (1:01:25.280)
I mean, because you're Russian, but like if somebody walked up to me, it was like, Hey,
Lex Fridman (1:01:28.920)
Kelsey, I like you, I'd be like, Oh God, he's going to put me in a camp.
Kelsi Sheren (1:01:33.100)
That's because you don't understand love, Kelsey.
Lex Fridman (1:01:35.320)
I don't.
Kelsi Sheren (1:01:36.320)
We'll talk about that.
Lex Fridman (1:01:37.320)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:01:38.320)
How many people does it take to move the M777?
Lex Fridman (1:01:40.120)
It depends.
Kelsi Sheren (1:01:41.120)
If you're moving it by ground, you're moving it on a truck and when you're moving it on
Kelsi Sheren (1:01:43.640)
a truck, you're hooking the back of it onto, you're hooking the front of the barrel onto
Kelsi Sheren (1:01:48.080)
one of those big transport looking trucks that has those cargo tents that's got soldiers
Lex Fridman (1:01:53.080)
in it.
Kelsi Sheren (1:01:54.080)
You don't want to ever move an M777 by that way, if you don't have to.
Lex Fridman (1:01:57.000)
The barrel is worth a million dollars.
Kelsi Sheren (1:01:58.760)
Wow.
Lex Fridman (1:01:59.760)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:02:00.760)
So this is like a serious piece of equipment.
Lex Fridman (1:02:02.040)
You don't want to move them.
Kelsi Sheren (1:02:03.240)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:02:04.240)
When we got to Kandahar, we were there for a couple of days.
Kelsi Sheren (1:02:07.800)
We got flown out to the FOB we were going to be at, forward observation base.
Kelsi Sheren (1:02:12.240)
Kandahar is the safe space or was the major base in Afghanistan that we were at.
Kelsi Sheren (1:02:16.860)
There's things like Tim Hortons there.
Lex Fridman (1:02:19.140)
There's Canada house.
Kelsi Sheren (1:02:20.920)
There's a British side, an American side, a Canadian side, and that's where you see
Lex Fridman (1:02:24.280)
all the different countries in the world kind of come together.
Kelsi Sheren (1:02:26.940)
You would see Italians, you would see Germans, you would see French, you would see all these
Kelsi Sheren (1:02:30.480)
different uniforms and you never know who to salute because you don't know what each
Kelsi Sheren (1:02:33.600)
thing means.
Lex Fridman (1:02:34.600)
It doesn't feel like a war zone.
Kelsi Sheren (1:02:36.480)
No.
Lex Fridman (1:02:37.480)
Oh God, no.
Kelsi Sheren (1:02:38.480)
There's a boardwalk.
Lex Fridman (1:02:39.480)
There's hockey there, like floor hockey because Canada had to have that.
Kelsi Sheren (1:02:41.840)
There's a Tim Hortons, a Subway, a Pizza Hut, a PX.
Lex Fridman (1:02:46.880)
I think there's a restaurant there somewhere, but I didn't get to go.
Kelsi Sheren (1:02:51.440)
Stuff like that.
Lex Fridman (1:02:52.440)
There's gyms.
Kelsi Sheren (1:02:53.440)
You can run around it.
Lex Fridman (1:02:54.440)
You feel fairly safe.
Kelsi Sheren (1:02:55.440)
You always have a weapon on you, but you can live your life.
Lex Fridman (1:02:57.400)
When you get out to the FOB, the guns are already there.
Kelsi Sheren (1:03:02.120)
Those M777s get lifted by a Chinook.
Kelsi Sheren (1:03:04.560)
Normally if they're going by air, they go by Chinook because they're heavy as hell.
Lex Fridman (1:03:07.760)
And Chinooks can hook them under the bottom and they fly them and then they'll drop them
Lex Fridman (1:03:12.160)
down.
Kelsi Sheren (1:03:13.160)
They have wheels on them, but you don't need them if you're going to leave it in place.
Lex Fridman (1:03:18.320)
Got it.
Lex Fridman (1:03:19.320)
And you're getting information about IEDs.
Kelsi Sheren (1:03:21.680)
You're getting a lay of the land as to what's been going on in the country for the past
Kelsi Sheren (1:03:25.080)
six months.
Lex Fridman (1:03:26.360)
And this, you know nothing, you're just like, this is your first time you're getting deployed.
Lex Fridman (1:03:30.040)
So what was your deployment like?
Lex Fridman (1:03:31.600)
Can you tell the story of your deployment to Afghanistan?
Lex Fridman (1:03:36.840)
Like the whole deployment?
Lex Fridman (1:03:39.120)
Getting like actual deploying, not the deployment itself.
Lex Fridman (1:03:42.200)
What's the difference between the two?
Lex Fridman (1:03:43.600)
Well actually getting ready to deploy is a little different.
Lex Fridman (1:03:46.520)
So I mean the emotional buildup to it and some of the memorable things that kind of
Kelsi Sheren (1:03:54.360)
you remember from that experience, both on the excitement, I get to see battle, I get
Kelsi Sheren (1:03:59.320)
to be part of this and the fear and also like being surprised like with the Tim Hortons
Lex Fridman (1:04:04.680)
and all those kinds of things.
Lex Fridman (1:04:05.680)
So like the lead up before everything like shit hit the fan, okay cool.
Lex Fridman (1:04:09.320)
So...
Kelsi Sheren (1:04:10.320)
You're such a fascinating person, but yes, yes.
Lex Fridman (1:04:13.920)
Something like that.
Kelsi Sheren (1:04:14.920)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (1:04:15.920)
I've been called...
Kelsi Sheren (1:04:16.920)
Many things.
Lex Fridman (1:04:17.920)
Yeah, fascinating.
Kelsi Sheren (1:04:18.920)
That start with the letter F.
Lex Fridman (1:04:19.920)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (1:04:20.920)
No, I don't know.
Lex Fridman (1:04:21.920)
I don't know many words with F. Okay, so the buildup to the deployment.
Lex Fridman (1:04:25.380)
So for the buildup for the deployment, I was in Quebec and my unit was deploying from Quebec.
Lex Fridman (1:04:30.740)
And at that time you kind of get your marching orders, you know you're deploying.
Kelsi Sheren (1:04:34.680)
I knew I was deploying before I even graduated.
Lex Fridman (1:04:38.600)
That's how much they needed people.
Lex Fridman (1:04:39.980)
So once I did all that training, on graduation parade day, a couple men from Quebec in uniforms
Kelsi Sheren (1:04:45.260)
came over and said, you, you, you and you are all being posted back here today and you're
Kelsi Sheren (1:04:49.080)
going to deploy with us in April.
Lex Fridman (1:04:51.080)
So that's how I found out I was deploying.
Lex Fridman (1:04:52.680)
Why was there such a need for troops in Afghanistan?
Lex Fridman (1:04:55.560)
That was a well known thing that there's a scaling up of troops.
Kelsi Sheren (1:04:59.000)
2007 on, Canada really started taking a combat role.
Kelsi Sheren (1:05:02.960)
Before it was very much more a UN type deal where doing what we normally do in most wars
Kelsi Sheren (1:05:06.600)
where we just, we wear blue and we don't shoot anyone.
Lex Fridman (1:05:10.780)
And so we're there to help.
Lex Fridman (1:05:13.200)
And so they were really, they were scaling up and there wasn't a lot of people in those
Lex Fridman (1:05:18.080)
trades initially, I think when the war kind of started.
Lex Fridman (1:05:20.280)
So Canada really started to scale.
Lex Fridman (1:05:22.720)
And so when I got to Quebec, we've kind of found, oh yeah, we're deploying.
Lex Fridman (1:05:26.980)
And it was a weird situation because I've never actually been at a unit on a non deployable
Lex Fridman (1:05:31.360)
unit.
Kelsi Sheren (1:05:32.360)
I don't know what they do day to day.
Lex Fridman (1:05:33.720)
That's different from what I did.
Kelsi Sheren (1:05:34.720)
I just know what I did.
Lex Fridman (1:05:36.640)
So we would do things like in the morning we would get up and we would meet for PT at
Kelsi Sheren (1:05:40.680)
5 a.m. and that would include going for a 10k run or playing ball hockey for a few hours
Kelsi Sheren (1:05:48.060)
in the gym or lifting weights together or just going on a rock march, a long rock march.
Kelsi Sheren (1:05:53.400)
Just stuff like that.
Kelsi Sheren (1:05:54.480)
You would have a shower, you would meet and then you would just sit around the regiment.
Kelsi Sheren (1:05:59.840)
You would just sit around the regiment and you would, if there was busy work, you'd mop
Lex Fridman (1:06:04.800)
the floors, you would clean weapons.
Kelsi Sheren (1:06:07.160)
There wasn't a whole lot until there was a whole lot to do.
Kelsi Sheren (1:06:10.860)
We did a lot for a while and then we went away on workup training to Texas for a week.
Kelsi Sheren (1:06:17.260)
We came down here and we did live fire with our other troop that was gonna be with us.
Lex Fridman (1:06:23.820)
So Alpha had two guns and two guns has two groups of people and so we all would go down
Kelsi Sheren (1:06:30.960)
to Texas and we did live fire here for a week and I ended up getting gastro which was awesome.
Lex Fridman (1:06:38.000)
So thanks for that.
Kelsi Sheren (1:06:39.000)
Oh apparently there was, they were having water problems and sanitary problems so everyone
Lex Fridman (1:06:43.600)
was getting it on the base.
Kelsi Sheren (1:06:45.600)
Okay so it just makes your life way harder.
Lex Fridman (1:06:48.920)
I didn't get it towards the end, till towards the end so that was fortunate.
Lex Fridman (1:06:52.600)
So we would fire live fire, we would go out to the middle of nowhere, the guns would be
Kelsi Sheren (1:06:56.920)
there and we would get offloaded truck of rounds and we would do live fire and we would
Kelsi Sheren (1:07:02.280)
practice, just constant practice.
Lex Fridman (1:07:04.720)
What's that saying?
Kelsi Sheren (1:07:05.980)
Perfect practice makes perfect.
Lex Fridman (1:07:07.200)
Yeah so this is a sensory, like a shooting range for artillery, for long range.
Lex Fridman (1:07:13.880)
So what does practice look like?
Lex Fridman (1:07:16.280)
So you roll up in your trucks and you're, you know, you've got each group of people.
Kelsi Sheren (1:07:21.660)
You've got two trucks and then you've got like a medic vehicle and then you've got like
Kelsi Sheren (1:07:24.720)
an officer vehicle and a comms vehicle and you go to your perspective guns and then you
Kelsi Sheren (1:07:30.560)
offload your ammo and then you basically wait for them to send you like a fire mission.
Lex Fridman (1:07:37.000)
Wow, get that together.
Kelsi Sheren (1:07:38.000)
They would call, they would say a mission, so it would be a fire mission.
Lex Fridman (1:07:41.600)
So we'd wait for that and once we got that then you all run like a bunch of scattered
Kelsi Sheren (1:07:45.320)
rats to the gun like it's like the greatest thing you've ever seen and then you just wait,
Kelsi Sheren (1:07:50.720)
you wait for the call for the sergeants to say and then you'll hear it because it's not
Kelsi Sheren (1:07:54.440)
headphones.
Kelsi Sheren (1:07:55.440)
You can hear it on a speaker and it'd be like, I'm not going to do it in French, don't ask.
Kelsi Sheren (1:07:59.720)
It'd be like so and so, 10 rounds, fire when ready and then you would get your rounds ready
Lex Fridman (1:08:09.160)
and everyone would have them ready and would be in their respective positions and then
Kelsi Sheren (1:08:13.640)
you would wait and then they would say fire when ready and as soon as they say fire when
Lex Fridman (1:08:17.560)
ready that means just start going.
Kelsi Sheren (1:08:19.720)
Just start and then that's when the magic starts.
Kelsi Sheren (1:08:22.200)
You go like the loop, like you shoot one or whatever, there's a reloading process.
Kelsi Sheren (1:08:26.400)
Yeah, there's a loop.
Lex Fridman (1:08:27.400)
So what you would do, you get the fire mission, you would find out the rounds, the 2IC would
Kelsi Sheren (1:08:31.080)
be standing by the rounds and it was his job to make sure the amount of rounds that was
Kelsi Sheren (1:08:34.680)
told would be the only rounds that would go downrange and so he'd stand there and on each
Kelsi Sheren (1:08:39.560)
round depending on the type of round is a fuse which gets screwed onto the top of the round.
Lex Fridman (1:08:45.240)
So they're about that big and it's just a point and then you would have to put it on,
Kelsi Sheren (1:08:51.880)
give it a spin and depending if it was a time release, you had a little, what do you call
Lex Fridman (1:08:57.960)
it?
Kelsi Sheren (1:08:58.960)
You get those at IKEA when you have to build everything.
Lex Fridman (1:08:59.960)
Allen wrench?
Kelsi Sheren (1:09:00.960)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Allen wrench.
Lex Fridman (1:09:01.960)
Yeah, you know what I'm talking about.
Kelsi Sheren (1:09:02.960)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:09:03.960)
But like a big one or something?
Kelsi Sheren (1:09:04.960)
No, just a little one because it's a tiny little hole and you just got to click it to
Kelsi Sheren (1:09:07.060)
where it's supposed to go and it depended on what the call was for and it was a timer.
Lex Fridman (1:09:12.240)
When you said like wheel, you mean like a little thing then?
Lex Fridman (1:09:15.520)
Is that what we're talking about?
Kelsi Sheren (1:09:16.520)
No, no.
Lex Fridman (1:09:17.520)
I'm talking about the round itself.
Lex Fridman (1:09:18.520)
So you would put a fuse on top of the round.
Lex Fridman (1:09:20.480)
So you would unload the ammo and then you would put fuses on them and the fuses are
Kelsi Sheren (1:09:25.240)
on the top and they're like a little ice cream topper kind of thing and you would spin those
Lex Fridman (1:09:30.440)
on.
Kelsi Sheren (1:09:31.440)
Oh, okay.
Lex Fridman (1:09:32.440)
And then once they're on, depending if it's a time release or not, you would take this
Kelsi Sheren (1:09:35.280)
little thing and you would move it the top and that would, it's almost like a little
Lex Fridman (1:09:39.240)
timer.
Kelsi Sheren (1:09:40.240)
Cool.
Lex Fridman (1:09:41.240)
That's what I did.
Lex Fridman (1:09:42.240)
So you're assembling a bullet.
Lex Fridman (1:09:43.840)
Essentially.
Kelsi Sheren (1:09:44.840)
A very big one that goes up to my waist.
Lex Fridman (1:09:47.240)
Cool.
Kelsi Sheren (1:09:48.240)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (1:09:49.240)
This is very cool.
Lex Fridman (1:09:50.240)
And you're a fascinating person.
Lex Fridman (1:09:51.240)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:09:52.240)
So just that you still even years later have all this in your memory.
Kelsi Sheren (1:09:55.720)
It's not all perfectly accurate and that's what irritates me though is because it bothers
Kelsi Sheren (1:10:00.200)
me when I can't remember things accurately but I have a lot of, I've had a lot of memory
Lex Fridman (1:10:04.920)
issues and problems after like having too many hits to the head and...
Lex Fridman (1:10:09.000)
This is from earlier in childhood or later?
Lex Fridman (1:10:10.880)
But both.
Kelsi Sheren (1:10:11.880)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:10:12.880)
Both.
Kelsi Sheren (1:10:13.880)
The military did not help it.
Lex Fridman (1:10:14.880)
Where was the hits in the head in the military?
Kelsi Sheren (1:10:18.160)
Well when you have a Carl Gustav beside your face like this and it shoots around, it gives
Lex Fridman (1:10:21.940)
you a concussive blast.
Kelsi Sheren (1:10:23.460)
Also there's new research being done, I'll find out exactly what it is, but there's new
Kelsi Sheren (1:10:27.300)
research that's being done that shows that if you're an artillery gunner and you stand
Kelsi Sheren (1:10:31.560)
within a certain range of that gun, you get the same amount of concussive blasts and there's
Lex Fridman (1:10:36.280)
a range.
Kelsi Sheren (1:10:37.280)
I had no idea but you feel it when it goes off, like it hurt, your whole body feels it.
Lex Fridman (1:10:43.800)
Your mind is fascinating because it's like literally the opposite of mine.
Kelsi Sheren (1:10:47.200)
One you're able to speak very quickly, very clearly, very sharply.
Lex Fridman (1:10:50.520)
Sorry, sorry.
Lex Fridman (1:10:51.520)
No, what?
Lex Fridman (1:10:52.520)
I talk too fast and I'm pretty loud.
Kelsi Sheren (1:10:53.520)
No that's perfect.
Lex Fridman (1:10:54.520)
Because of my hearing.
Kelsi Sheren (1:10:55.520)
I admire, I mean I admire that very much.
Kelsi Sheren (1:10:56.520)
I can't do any of that and you listen extremely well and you're extremely attentive and you
Kelsi Sheren (1:11:01.840)
have a good memory.
Kelsi Sheren (1:11:02.840)
Anyway, it's just fun to watch you and I can tell you're a great soldier in just all different
Kelsi Sheren (1:11:09.240)
aspects of it.
Lex Fridman (1:11:10.240)
Thank you, I appreciate it.
Lex Fridman (1:11:12.120)
But what the heck we're talking about?
Lex Fridman (1:11:13.480)
Oh, build up to the deployment.
Lex Fridman (1:11:14.980)
How did we get to Texas?
Lex Fridman (1:11:16.440)
Because that was part of the build up to my deployment.
Lex Fridman (1:11:18.320)
And live fire you got to, did that feel good?
Lex Fridman (1:11:20.840)
Oh yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (1:11:21.840)
It was so good.
Lex Fridman (1:11:26.440)
What's the favorite, what's the best part about like shooting artillery?
Lex Fridman (1:11:32.280)
Like what's the thing that feels good?
Lex Fridman (1:11:35.360)
Which part?
Kelsi Sheren (1:11:36.360)
Power.
Lex Fridman (1:11:37.360)
Well the feeling of power.
Lex Fridman (1:11:38.700)
When is the best moment of, the highest moment of the feeling of power?
Lex Fridman (1:11:43.660)
Is it the whole process that you love or is there like when you actually shoot it?
Kelsi Sheren (1:11:48.640)
It's symbiotic.
Lex Fridman (1:11:49.640)
It's a beautiful thing to watch.
Kelsi Sheren (1:11:50.880)
To know that a gun can fire and it takes kind of a dance to make it work.
Lex Fridman (1:11:56.520)
There's something about that to me that just got my heart racing.
Kelsi Sheren (1:11:59.940)
When you actually shoot the round and you see it go and you hear it, it's unlike, you
Lex Fridman (1:12:06.280)
can't describe.
Kelsi Sheren (1:12:07.280)
There's no, I've never felt another feeling.
Kelsi Sheren (1:12:09.840)
I've also never been in like an F18 or an F like 16 or like any, I've never been in
Kelsi Sheren (1:12:14.820)
anything like that.
Lex Fridman (1:12:16.440)
And I've, you know, I've never, trying to think of something else that'd be comparable.
Kelsi Sheren (1:12:20.520)
I've never been in like a Formula One car.
Kelsi Sheren (1:12:22.440)
Those are the only things I can picture being that much for me because to shoot one of those
Lex Fridman (1:12:29.200)
and to know that you've done your job right means that you've helped.
Lex Fridman (1:12:34.540)
And that to me was really what did it for me.
Kelsi Sheren (1:12:37.800)
When you hear your sergeant say, mission accomplished, target hit, tired acquired, then you're like,
Lex Fridman (1:12:43.680)
that's a good feeling, that's the stuff.
Kelsi Sheren (1:12:47.000)
Quick pause.
Lex Fridman (1:12:48.040)
Take a break Lex.
Kelsi Sheren (1:12:49.800)
Okay, so live fire in Texas, we're in Texas by the way.
Lex Fridman (1:12:54.280)
Fort Worth or Fort Hood, one of them.
Lex Fridman (1:12:56.520)
Well, okay, so like it's what, is that close to a big major city?
Lex Fridman (1:13:00.000)
Do you remember visiting a city?
Kelsi Sheren (1:13:02.000)
Oh God, no, we fly right into the tarmac and they're like, don't touch the snakes.
Lex Fridman (1:13:07.360)
And then they send you out to the field.
Kelsi Sheren (1:13:09.920)
Got it.
Lex Fridman (1:13:10.920)
Let's see the instructions.
Kelsi Sheren (1:13:11.920)
No, really, we went into a classroom and they're like, these are the animals that are in the
Lex Fridman (1:13:15.360)
wildlife in Texas.
Kelsi Sheren (1:13:16.800)
If you see any of them, do not approach.
Lex Fridman (1:13:18.740)
Do not go pee outside.
Kelsi Sheren (1:13:19.940)
Do not squat down.
Lex Fridman (1:13:20.940)
It is snake season people.
Lex Fridman (1:13:22.200)
And I was like, I have to pee and squat down.
Lex Fridman (1:13:25.820)
Why Texas and from like Canada, is it a simulation of Afghanistan?
Kelsi Sheren (1:13:31.000)
Yes.
Kelsi Sheren (1:13:32.000)
Okay, so that's, okay, so you're getting, and that's the way the live fire was seen
Kelsi Sheren (1:13:37.040)
in artilleries, like you're trying to simulate certain aspects of what you might actually
Lex Fridman (1:13:41.840)
see in Afghanistan.
Kelsi Sheren (1:13:42.960)
I would think so.
Kelsi Sheren (1:13:43.960)
I mean, we, it, it looks like it's hot, like it, you're out in the middle of nowhere.
Kelsi Sheren (1:13:50.400)
Very similar terrain.
Kelsi Sheren (1:13:51.860)
That's the first time we started to get to wear our tan boots and our tan, like our combat
Kelsi Sheren (1:13:56.360)
tan stuff before you couldn't wear that.
Lex Fridman (1:13:58.400)
So it gave us an opportunity to kind of break in, break in how we were going to be doing
Kelsi Sheren (1:14:01.840)
this, what it was going to look like, how the guns were going to work and all of those
Lex Fridman (1:14:05.040)
lovely things.
Lex Fridman (1:14:06.040)
How do you go from there to being deployed?
Lex Fridman (1:14:10.240)
What was the next part of the journey?
Lex Fridman (1:14:12.280)
So then we go to Wainwright, Alberta, often called or referenced as Waincock because it
Lex Fridman (1:14:17.480)
sucks so bad.
Kelsi Sheren (1:14:19.720)
It is a massive open space in Alberta, which most of Alberta is, and it's outside of a
Lex Fridman (1:14:25.560)
small town called Wainwright.
Lex Fridman (1:14:27.320)
And it is a field X training area for all of the Canadian military.
Lex Fridman (1:14:32.800)
And it's where you do live fire, but you also do workup training.
Lex Fridman (1:14:38.120)
So you go out there for a month or two, I think it is.
Kelsi Sheren (1:14:40.480)
I don't remember the exact time we were there because it was just, you sleep in a tent,
Kelsi Sheren (1:14:44.080)
you're in your cot, you're in like full mission mode.
Lex Fridman (1:14:47.940)
And you go outside and we did this operation called Operation Maple Leaf, I think it was.
Lex Fridman (1:14:53.940)
And you put on these little suits, they have haptic, you can feel when you're shot.
Lex Fridman (1:15:01.040)
And then there's a little camera, sorry, screen in the front of it, and it's got button options.
Lex Fridman (1:15:05.900)
And so it's to mimic if you get shot, it'll say gunshot wound.
Lex Fridman (1:15:09.580)
And then you have to choose, okay, do I do this or do I do this?
Lex Fridman (1:15:12.420)
And depending on your response, person dies or lives.
Lex Fridman (1:15:15.540)
And they have other people who aren't on a rotation for deployment come and act as the
Kelsi Sheren (1:15:19.860)
Taliban and attack you in the middle of the night.
Lex Fridman (1:15:25.980)
Is there a good understanding of the tactics that the Taliban used to attack?
Kelsi Sheren (1:15:30.580)
I mean, this may be fast forwards to our conversation a little bit, but is there predictable strategies
Lex Fridman (1:15:38.580)
on the other side that are being used in Afghanistan?
Lex Fridman (1:15:42.360)
By the Taliban?
Lex Fridman (1:15:43.360)
By the Taliban.
Kelsi Sheren (1:15:44.360)
Oh, 100%.
Lex Fridman (1:15:45.360)
They had suicide bombers, vehicle born IEDs.
Kelsi Sheren (1:15:50.740)
Their standard way to hit people really was IEDs and vehicle born IEDs, suicide bombers.
Kelsi Sheren (1:15:57.220)
They'd put like backpacks full of an IED and then put like toys around it and then just
Kelsi Sheren (1:16:03.020)
be like.
Lex Fridman (1:16:04.020)
So they will conceal it certain ways and probably use civilians.
Kelsi Sheren (1:16:07.300)
Oh, 100%.
Lex Fridman (1:16:08.300)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:16:09.300)
And women were a great way to get close to the soldiers because women seem nonthreatening.
Kelsi Sheren (1:16:13.300)
When you see a burqa walk up to you, you're not expecting an AK 47 to roll out of that
Lex Fridman (1:16:16.940)
and then, or, you know, but there are great ways to get close.
Lex Fridman (1:16:21.260)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:16:22.260)
So what is it, Wayne something?
Lex Fridman (1:16:24.380)
Waynecock?
Kelsi Sheren (1:16:25.380)
No, that's not how, Wayne Wright.
Lex Fridman (1:16:28.100)
Let's go to Alberta.
Kelsi Sheren (1:16:29.100)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:16:30.100)
Okay.
Kelsi Sheren (1:16:31.100)
I mean, we don't have to go to Alberta.
Lex Fridman (1:16:32.100)
Nobody wants to.
Kelsi Sheren (1:16:33.100)
No, let's, in our minds, in our imagination.
Lex Fridman (1:16:37.100)
So okay.
Lex Fridman (1:16:38.100)
So that's getting you closer to Afghanistan.
Lex Fridman (1:16:40.140)
Right.
Lex Fridman (1:16:41.140)
What was that like?
Lex Fridman (1:16:42.140)
I mean, are you getting anxious at this point?
Lex Fridman (1:16:44.020)
Is there a buildup?
Lex Fridman (1:16:45.020)
What are you thinking?
Lex Fridman (1:16:46.020)
Or is this just all part of the training?
Lex Fridman (1:16:47.900)
For me, it was more part of the training.
Kelsi Sheren (1:16:49.780)
I was excited to go because I did know that we were going to do some live fire.
Kelsi Sheren (1:16:54.660)
I did know that we were going to be doing more of the military type job I thought we
Kelsi Sheren (1:17:00.300)
were going to be doing because up until that point, I had just done training.
Lex Fridman (1:17:03.860)
So I was learning how to march and salute and who to salute and not salute.
Kelsi Sheren (1:17:07.220)
Like that was the focus of, that was my experience of the military.
Lex Fridman (1:17:10.580)
And then the next experience was sitting in a regiment, just working out a lot and going
Kelsi Sheren (1:17:14.820)
for breakfast a lot and drinking.
Lex Fridman (1:17:16.340)
Like that was, I was like, this is the army.
Lex Fridman (1:17:18.740)
So when I actually got to go to Wainwright, I got my first full taste of, okay, well,
Lex Fridman (1:17:23.700)
there's fire picket duty.
Lex Fridman (1:17:24.700)
So one person gets picked every night to do sentry.
Lex Fridman (1:17:28.500)
There's a little less sleep.
Kelsi Sheren (1:17:30.180)
You're eating out of a canteen now.
Lex Fridman (1:17:32.580)
You're drinking out of canteen.
Kelsi Sheren (1:17:33.580)
You're in your kit more.
Lex Fridman (1:17:34.580)
You're in your deployable kit.
Kelsi Sheren (1:17:35.660)
Now you're in your, you know, you're wearing your tack vest.
Lex Fridman (1:17:40.220)
You're getting ready to practice having plates on.
Kelsi Sheren (1:17:42.220)
You're having ammunition on you.
Lex Fridman (1:17:44.320)
You've got your weapon with you all the time.
Kelsi Sheren (1:17:45.980)
When you're on base in Quebec, you're, you're just like an everyday job.
Lex Fridman (1:17:51.540)
Maybe you can paint a clearer picture to me.
Lex Fridman (1:17:54.120)
When was there an understanding that you're actually getting deployed?
Lex Fridman (1:17:56.540)
Was it just a sense that you're getting deployed or was this officially told to you?
Kelsi Sheren (1:18:00.740)
I was officially told on graduation day, you're deploying in April with Vac Hits.
Lex Fridman (1:18:04.460)
Oh, okay.
Kelsi Sheren (1:18:05.460)
There's a date.
Kelsi Sheren (1:18:06.460)
Like they, they knew, so what had happened is the reason that Vac Hits unit needed more
Kelsi Sheren (1:18:12.060)
people.
Lex Fridman (1:18:13.060)
So they came to that and they picked five people.
Kelsi Sheren (1:18:14.620)
There was five English speaking people that went to Vac Hits.
Lex Fridman (1:18:16.820)
It wasn't just myself.
Kelsi Sheren (1:18:18.000)
There was a couple other people I knew that were English speaking that got put on other
Lex Fridman (1:18:21.320)
guns within the regiment.
Kelsi Sheren (1:18:23.300)
I wasn't with any of them.
Lex Fridman (1:18:24.860)
We all kind of got split up.
Lex Fridman (1:18:26.940)
And so there was an understanding that we were going to always be deploying.
Lex Fridman (1:18:33.700)
Next year, it was like 2009, you're deploying.
Kelsi Sheren (1:18:36.100)
Whether you left in May or April, we were deploying because that was the rotation time.
Lex Fridman (1:18:41.300)
So each Canadian unit did between six and nine months.
Lex Fridman (1:18:44.420)
And then you knew right around that point, another base of individuals would then deploy.
Lex Fridman (1:18:49.340)
So you would go on these rotations.
Lex Fridman (1:18:51.300)
And so even when I was on my deployment then, I was slated to go again the following year,
Lex Fridman (1:18:56.560)
but towards the end of the year.
Lex Fridman (1:18:58.280)
So there was always a rotation.
Kelsi Sheren (1:19:00.000)
If you were in a combat arms unit and you were in one that was a deployable unit.
Lex Fridman (1:19:03.500)
So if you were from Edmonton, a PPCLI, which were the Princess Patricia's, which were their
Lex Fridman (1:19:09.620)
infantry unit.
Kelsi Sheren (1:19:10.880)
If you were RCR out of Petawawa, Ontario, you knew you were deploying.
Lex Fridman (1:19:16.360)
If you were at Vac Hits, you knew you were deploying.
Kelsi Sheren (1:19:19.020)
There's combat arms bases, and then there's like naval bases.
Lex Fridman (1:19:22.000)
I didn't know their deployment structure.
Kelsi Sheren (1:19:23.500)
I didn't know how they worked.
Lex Fridman (1:19:25.220)
I'm on the ground.
Kelsi Sheren (1:19:26.220)
Don't worry about the boats.
Lex Fridman (1:19:27.420)
So I didn't know how the Air Force deployed.
Kelsi Sheren (1:19:29.260)
I knew Vac Hits was deploying in April.
Lex Fridman (1:19:32.240)
You were going, get ready.
Kelsi Sheren (1:19:36.040)
That was that.
Lex Fridman (1:19:37.040)
So you show up to Afghanistan.
Lex Fridman (1:19:39.040)
What is a combat arms unit look like?
Lex Fridman (1:19:43.300)
What's the situation look like?
Lex Fridman (1:19:45.180)
How much chaos is there?
Lex Fridman (1:19:47.620)
How much clarity about mission is there?
Lex Fridman (1:19:50.420)
What are your feelings about the whole thing?
Lex Fridman (1:19:52.300)
So when you leave, the day you leave, we left Quebec, we got driven to the airport and then
Kelsi Sheren (1:19:57.620)
we walked onto the tarmac and we load our own bags and we got on a plane and it's just
Lex Fridman (1:20:01.740)
empty.
Kelsi Sheren (1:20:02.740)
It's just, it's our plane.
Lex Fridman (1:20:04.300)
And you don't go right to Afghanistan.
Kelsi Sheren (1:20:06.180)
You go to a stopover point, which I don't know if I'm allowed to say where that is frankly.
Lex Fridman (1:20:10.420)
So I just say it's somewhere overseas.
Lex Fridman (1:20:12.960)
And you go there and you go there for a couple of days, I think it's like a day or two.
Lex Fridman (1:20:16.860)
And that's where you get like your kit.
Kelsi Sheren (1:20:18.720)
That's where you get your bulletproof plates for the first time and realize how heavy those
Lex Fridman (1:20:21.340)
fucking things are.
Kelsi Sheren (1:20:22.340)
It's where you get your weapon and your ammunition, your first few mags.
Kelsi Sheren (1:20:26.540)
It's where you get your helmet and your vests and you get everything that you need.
Kelsi Sheren (1:20:31.300)
While you're there, it's pretty nonchalant.
Lex Fridman (1:20:34.140)
It's hot as hell.
Kelsi Sheren (1:20:35.140)
It's your first time being in that kind of heat.
Lex Fridman (1:20:36.980)
So you just never stop sweating.
Kelsi Sheren (1:20:38.860)
The place we were in, it's just the second you got out of the shower, you were still
Lex Fridman (1:20:42.220)
wet after you got out.
Lex Fridman (1:20:43.420)
What the hell is happening?
Lex Fridman (1:20:44.580)
It's so humid.
Lex Fridman (1:20:46.100)
And I'm like, is this going to be like this in Afghanistan?
Lex Fridman (1:20:47.580)
They're like, no, it's not humid there at all.
Lex Fridman (1:20:49.300)
I'm like, why is it so bad here?
Lex Fridman (1:20:51.260)
They're like, it'll be fine.
Kelsi Sheren (1:20:52.620)
Don't worry about it.
Lex Fridman (1:20:53.940)
So and where we were there, it was kind of cute.
Kelsi Sheren (1:20:58.540)
We were like in a base, within a base and they had like turf and we had like ice cream
Lex Fridman (1:21:04.460)
and fruit and you could go get on a computer, you could go make calls, you had showers,
Kelsi Sheren (1:21:09.660)
you had a real bed.
Lex Fridman (1:21:10.940)
It was very kind of okay for that point.
Lex Fridman (1:21:14.540)
And then you got all your stuff and then okay, we're rolling out, which is about a five hour
Lex Fridman (1:21:17.380)
flight.
Kelsi Sheren (1:21:18.380)
Again, my experience with helicopters is mostly from another Arnold Schwarzenegger movie,
Lex Fridman (1:21:23.380)
The Predator.
Lex Fridman (1:21:24.380)
I'm not, do you want me to say I've never seen it?
Lex Fridman (1:21:29.620)
I've never seen it.
Lex Fridman (1:21:30.620)
Lex, do you feel better about yourself?
Kelsi Sheren (1:21:31.620)
No, you want to tell the audience the, all the excellent shows that you mentioned me
Kelsi Sheren (1:21:37.100)
offline that you watch instead, instead of Platoon.
Lex Fridman (1:21:40.060)
Listen.
Kelsi Sheren (1:21:41.060)
Yeah, this, nine is Sex and the City.
Lex Fridman (1:21:43.700)
Was that more important than Platoon?
Kelsi Sheren (1:21:44.700)
Oh no, I've never seen that.
Lex Fridman (1:21:46.460)
Don't, don't put me in that category.
Lex Fridman (1:21:47.460)
Why?
Lex Fridman (1:21:48.460)
Did you just put me in a box?
Kelsi Sheren (1:21:49.460)
I did.
Lex Fridman (1:21:50.460)
I watch like Homeland.
Kelsi Sheren (1:21:51.460)
I watch, no, I watch like, I watch a lot of documentaries.
Lex Fridman (1:21:55.020)
I watch, I like to watch real, real things more than, than, than just film.
Kelsi Sheren (1:22:00.420)
I did a little bit of film stuff when I got back into Canada and I was like, once you're,
Lex Fridman (1:22:06.580)
once you've seen how it's made, I'm like, I don't want to do that.
Kelsi Sheren (1:22:09.420)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:22:10.420)
I mean, I'm the same way as superhero movies.
Kelsi Sheren (1:22:11.700)
It doesn't, I want, I want, I want something closer to reality, but then movies like Platoon
Lex Fridman (1:22:17.340)
reveal some deep aspect of reality without it.
Kelsi Sheren (1:22:21.140)
I did Superman Man of Steel.
Lex Fridman (1:22:22.860)
Wait, you, sorry, you, you were, what do you mean you did?
Kelsi Sheren (1:22:25.900)
I was not a military expert, but I was a stunt expert, even though I didn't actually have
Lex Fridman (1:22:31.180)
to do any stunts.
Kelsi Sheren (1:22:32.220)
It's just because I had previous military experience and they were going to have me
Lex Fridman (1:22:34.740)
as an extra as a military person.
Lex Fridman (1:22:36.580)
But if you have previous experience, they have to make it as like a stunt role, like
Lex Fridman (1:22:39.500)
so you get paid more.
Kelsi Sheren (1:22:40.500)
Got it.
Lex Fridman (1:22:41.500)
So I got to sit at a desk and I was in that, I was in that like, you'd see me like, whew,
Kelsi Sheren (1:22:45.580)
for like two seconds.
Lex Fridman (1:22:46.740)
So what you're saying is you were the mastermind behind that movie.
Kelsi Sheren (1:22:50.220)
For the entire thing.
Lex Fridman (1:22:51.860)
You're so accurate.
Kelsi Sheren (1:22:52.860)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:22:53.860)
Great.
Kelsi Sheren (1:22:54.860)
Your representation of me is just fantastic.
Lex Fridman (1:22:56.420)
The combat arms unit of Afghanistan, the ice cream machine.
Lex Fridman (1:23:02.500)
What like when you actually get closer and closer to the mission, what, when does that
Lex Fridman (1:23:07.580)
happen?
Kelsi Sheren (1:23:08.580)
When I, you know, got to where we were before we were leaving to get on the plane, I don't
Lex Fridman (1:23:12.220)
really, I don't think I realized what the hell I was doing.
Kelsi Sheren (1:23:15.540)
Truthfully, like you're asking me all these, like, what did you feel, how did you, like
Kelsi Sheren (1:23:19.300)
when I really think about it, if I sit there and really think about it, I was deploying.
Kelsi Sheren (1:23:24.620)
I was aware.
Lex Fridman (1:23:25.620)
I knew what I was going to do.
Kelsi Sheren (1:23:26.740)
I knew my job, but once we actually stepped onto that Herc to leave, to get into the Afghan
Lex Fridman (1:23:32.740)
airspace, I think that's when it hit me.
Kelsi Sheren (1:23:35.060)
I think it smacked me in the face so hard.
Lex Fridman (1:23:38.260)
And that's when the overwhelming just reality was that, oh fuck, oh, oh, oh.
Kelsi Sheren (1:23:48.660)
When they said, make weapons ready, put the barrel to the ground, put your helmets on.
Kelsi Sheren (1:23:55.260)
That's when they start flying tactically, which means they're going between the mountains.
Kelsi Sheren (1:23:58.140)
That means we're going to land soon.
Lex Fridman (1:23:59.640)
Which means if you're flying like this, it's because RPGs can hit you.
Lex Fridman (1:24:04.500)
So that was my first moment of, oh, I could like just be shot down right now.
Lex Fridman (1:24:08.820)
Like I, I couldn't, I didn't grasp it.
Lex Fridman (1:24:11.660)
I was, how old was I?
Lex Fridman (1:24:13.620)
19.
Kelsi Sheren (1:24:14.620)
19.
Lex Fridman (1:24:15.620)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (1:24:16.620)
Wow.
Lex Fridman (1:24:17.620)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:24:18.620)
So I'm trying to explain to you cause it's hard because I don't know that I actually
Lex Fridman (1:24:21.540)
did grasp it until I was in the air getting ready to land in Kandahar.
Lex Fridman (1:24:26.140)
When was the first time you heard bullets, enemy, enemy bullets or enemy explosions?
Kelsi Sheren (1:24:33.300)
Well, when you're in Kandahar, when you're in Kandahar, when you're at CAF, there's a,
Kelsi Sheren (1:24:37.540)
you're fairly insulated away from the main walls.
Lex Fridman (1:24:39.660)
You would hear stuff go off or you would hear the rocket sirens would go off.
Lex Fridman (1:24:43.900)
So you would hear the, and everyone just kind of got down on the ground and just waited
Lex Fridman (1:24:48.340)
for the all clear.
Lex Fridman (1:24:49.340)
And then we got back up.
Lex Fridman (1:24:50.820)
I didn't hear any actual live fire until I got to the FOB.
Kelsi Sheren (1:24:58.160)
It was more just a lot of noise.
Kelsi Sheren (1:25:00.340)
You would hear a lot of helicopters, a lot of planes going in and out of the base.
Lex Fridman (1:25:04.260)
So there was that sense you could feel the ground shake when they took off, but there
Lex Fridman (1:25:07.380)
was that sense, you know, things were going around, things were happening.
Kelsi Sheren (1:25:10.300)
You just weren't far enough.
Lex Fridman (1:25:12.620)
You were not close enough to the edges of CAF to see it.
Lex Fridman (1:25:17.060)
So what's the FOB?
Kelsi Sheren (1:25:19.180)
FOB is a Forward Observation Base, which is a small little base out in the middle of wherever.
Lex Fridman (1:25:25.140)
And that's, that's specific to artillery?
Lex Fridman (1:25:28.260)
No.
Kelsi Sheren (1:25:29.260)
That's in general, just an observation base from which combat.
Kelsi Sheren (1:25:32.540)
For infantry to go in and out of, for armor to go in and out of, special ops go in and
Kelsi Sheren (1:25:36.580)
out of them.
Lex Fridman (1:25:37.580)
They fly, they'll stop there.
Kelsi Sheren (1:25:38.660)
They'll pick people up or do whatever, then they'll go out.
Lex Fridman (1:25:41.140)
So it's, a Forward Observation Base is used essentially to have eyes in that area without
Kelsi Sheren (1:25:45.960)
having to be doing patrols every five seconds.
Lex Fridman (1:25:48.260)
But there's not, is it like, is there like medics there?
Kelsi Sheren (1:25:50.500)
Oh yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:25:51.500)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (1:25:52.500)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:25:53.500)
So it was.
Lex Fridman (1:25:54.500)
Actual base?
Lex Fridman (1:25:55.500)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (1:25:56.500)
I was, it's a, I don't call it an actual base.
Lex Fridman (1:25:57.500)
You sleep in tents and cots.
Lex Fridman (1:25:58.500)
And it is, the walls are this mesh material that are filled with gravel.
Lex Fridman (1:26:03.100)
And that's the walls.
Lex Fridman (1:26:05.500)
And then you have towers.
Kelsi Sheren (1:26:06.500)
You had five, I think we had five towers because the Americans ran four and we ran one.
Lex Fridman (1:26:10.860)
And so it was an American FOB.
Lex Fridman (1:26:12.380)
It's called FOB Ramrod.
Lex Fridman (1:26:14.780)
And there was a, were there Marines?
Lex Fridman (1:26:17.780)
No, I think they were the 101st.
Kelsi Sheren (1:26:20.380)
They were out of there.
Lex Fridman (1:26:22.020)
This is where I get dicey because I was moved a lot.
Lex Fridman (1:26:24.620)
So when people are like, who are you with?
Lex Fridman (1:26:25.980)
I'm like, I know what their patches looked like.
Kelsi Sheren (1:26:28.820)
I don't know the full ins and outs.
Lex Fridman (1:26:30.940)
So I'm working on getting that back so that I can tell it accurately because I believe
Kelsi Sheren (1:26:34.140)
it deserves that type of respect.
Lex Fridman (1:26:35.820)
But that being said, I'm still trying to wrap my brain around all of this.
Kelsi Sheren (1:26:40.020)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (1:26:41.020)
You almost have to go back and do like research to understand the full details of all the
Kelsi Sheren (1:26:46.740)
things you were experiencing.
Lex Fridman (1:26:47.980)
And so I reached out to actually a bunch of people even before I wrote the book and I
Kelsi Sheren (1:26:50.860)
didn't get a lot of answers.
Kelsi Sheren (1:26:51.860)
Well, once I did Jocko, all the people have reached out to me and were like, hey, and
Kelsi Sheren (1:26:55.380)
I'm like, called you.
Lex Fridman (1:26:56.740)
So now I'm working, that's why I'm doing the rewrite is I'm working on making sure that
Kelsi Sheren (1:27:00.420)
things are exact.
Lex Fridman (1:27:02.780)
And so there was infantry units going in at that FOB and it was a really tiny FOB.
Kelsi Sheren (1:27:08.380)
It was run by the Americans and then there was a tiny little corner that was the Canadian
Lex Fridman (1:27:14.220)
artillery unit.
Lex Fridman (1:27:15.980)
And the Americans, normally it's Americans shooting for Americans, Canadians shooting
Lex Fridman (1:27:20.180)
for Canadians.
Kelsi Sheren (1:27:21.180)
The rest of the regiment that deployed, so Bravo and Charlie, they were at Canadian FOBs,
Lex Fridman (1:27:26.180)
Massom Guard and another one and these were huge FOBs.
Kelsi Sheren (1:27:29.280)
Ours was this tiny like three kilometer around place and we had this tiny little subsection
Lex Fridman (1:27:35.980)
of it and the rest was so it was like this and then all American here.
Lex Fridman (1:27:40.340)
And when we got there, we landed, the guns were already there.
Lex Fridman (1:27:44.380)
So you ripped out the unit before you.
Lex Fridman (1:27:46.180)
So those guys were just leaving and we were just replacing them.
Lex Fridman (1:27:49.380)
So that we knew the guns, they were Canadian guns, we understood, you know, how to run
Kelsi Sheren (1:27:53.300)
those.
Lex Fridman (1:27:54.300)
That was fine.
Kelsi Sheren (1:27:55.300)
When we got there, though, we had come in on Chinook and Chinooks are super loud and
Lex Fridman (1:28:01.860)
they're like, we're hearing protection.
Kelsi Sheren (1:28:03.140)
They don't, you're not, no, this is not reality.
Lex Fridman (1:28:07.100)
Like this is why I'm partially deaf now.
Kelsi Sheren (1:28:08.660)
Like it's not reality.
Lex Fridman (1:28:09.660)
So sorry to take a tangent, but do you usually wear ear protection in any aspects of warfare
Lex Fridman (1:28:15.920)
of this whole process?
Kelsi Sheren (1:28:17.500)
You wear comms, like you have a comm on like in a radio if you're outside the wire.
Lex Fridman (1:28:23.060)
So comms, is that like a Bluetooth headset?
Lex Fridman (1:28:24.900)
Yes, it's a Bluetooth headset.
Kelsi Sheren (1:28:26.740)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:28:27.740)
No.
Lex Fridman (1:28:28.740)
Like from Nike or like?
Lex Fridman (1:28:29.740)
I was gonna say Adidas.
Kelsi Sheren (1:28:30.740)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:28:31.740)
I don't know if anyone was involved at some point.
Kelsi Sheren (1:28:33.300)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (1:28:34.300)
This equipment looked like it was from World War II.
Lex Fridman (1:28:35.860)
So it's comms, but is that having ear protection?
Lex Fridman (1:28:39.060)
Like.
Kelsi Sheren (1:28:40.060)
No.
Lex Fridman (1:28:41.060)
No.
Lex Fridman (1:28:42.060)
And I didn't wear them.
Lex Fridman (1:28:43.060)
That's just what some people wore.
Kelsi Sheren (1:28:44.060)
People when you were as low as me, like we weren't privy to conversate.
Lex Fridman (1:28:46.860)
Like we were just told what to do and you do it.
Lex Fridman (1:28:48.980)
So when you're doing like on the OP tower, you have a radio, you pick up and you call
Lex Fridman (1:28:53.060)
in and then you put the radio down.
Lex Fridman (1:28:54.420)
But for hearing protection, I mean, I would put in earplugs, but those things are so violently
Lex Fridman (1:28:59.560)
loud that earplugs, they don't do it justice.
Kelsi Sheren (1:29:02.620)
I feel like when you go shooting, there's a certain kinds of earplugs that you, it blocks
Kelsi Sheren (1:29:09.540)
out the gut, like certain kinds of sounds associated with guns and you can still hear
Kelsi Sheren (1:29:14.420)
other types of stuff.
Lex Fridman (1:29:16.060)
So the ones they issued us were these big things that had like a headpiece like here,
Lex Fridman (1:29:20.780)
but you have to wear your helmet when you're firing.
Lex Fridman (1:29:22.900)
Right.
Lex Fridman (1:29:23.900)
So you can't have both on.
Lex Fridman (1:29:25.380)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:29:26.380)
So how much are you aware of the logistics of the whole thing?
Lex Fridman (1:29:29.260)
That's always fascinating with warfare.
Kelsi Sheren (1:29:31.900)
Like in terms of setting up, you mentioned gravel and the fobs, like setting all those
Lex Fridman (1:29:36.980)
bases out.
Kelsi Sheren (1:29:37.980)
Were you seeing any of this or again, it's a 19 year old kind of just.
Lex Fridman (1:29:41.980)
Well, it's not that I was oblivious.
Kelsi Sheren (1:29:43.580)
That's the one thing I would say I wasn't.
Lex Fridman (1:29:44.940)
I was, I'm very aware of my surroundings.
Kelsi Sheren (1:29:47.140)
That's something that's always been taught to me from a very early age because I travel
Lex Fridman (1:29:50.460)
a lot with my dad in the truck.
Lex Fridman (1:29:52.100)
And so my dad would be like, you're going to go into that bathroom and I'm going to
Kelsi Sheren (1:29:54.660)
watch you come out and you're going to watch everyone around you because people get kidnapped.
Kelsi Sheren (1:29:58.940)
Like that's just the reality.
Lex Fridman (1:30:00.460)
I was always very paranoid.
Lex Fridman (1:30:03.280)
So you were paying attention to surroundings.
Lex Fridman (1:30:07.020)
But the fob was already built up when we got there.
Kelsi Sheren (1:30:09.620)
This is already like well established bases already.
Lex Fridman (1:30:12.100)
Like there's.
Kelsi Sheren (1:30:13.100)
Established enough.
Lex Fridman (1:30:14.100)
All right.
Lex Fridman (1:30:15.780)
And that is one of the first times you've heard actual fire.
Lex Fridman (1:30:19.940)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (1:30:20.940)
That was like the, I mean, I'd heard it on the, when we, when we shoot and when we zero
Lex Fridman (1:30:24.620)
in weapons and we do all that stuff.
Lex Fridman (1:30:26.100)
But I had never heard it, heard it like that before.
Lex Fridman (1:30:29.940)
And then you would see the, the, the guys, the Americans would roll out every day and
Kelsi Sheren (1:30:33.700)
go on patrol and come back, back, back.
Lex Fridman (1:30:36.020)
And so you would see them, you would hear them, they would tell the stories, those types
Kelsi Sheren (1:30:40.020)
of things.
Lex Fridman (1:30:41.060)
But I never experienced it because we never, we never got attacked.
Kelsi Sheren (1:30:45.100)
Like our base never got hit.
Lex Fridman (1:30:46.420)
We were really lucky that way.
Kelsi Sheren (1:30:48.700)
There were other ones around us that were getting hit, but we weren't, we weren't getting
Lex Fridman (1:30:51.700)
hit.
Kelsi Sheren (1:30:52.700)
We were very fortunate.
Lex Fridman (1:30:54.740)
At least we didn't get hit when I was there.
Kelsi Sheren (1:30:56.300)
I believe the entry got, there was an attempt.
Lex Fridman (1:31:00.540)
There was an attempt at some point in a past, but I wasn't privy to that.
Lex Fridman (1:31:04.620)
But we were in the OP tower, so we had to do our own security.
Lex Fridman (1:31:08.160)
But because we were such a small subset of Canadians and we always had to have people
Kelsi Sheren (1:31:12.020)
running the guns and ready to run the guns at all times.
Lex Fridman (1:31:14.740)
We only had to man one tower.
Lex Fridman (1:31:16.180)
So you would do four hour shifts with a fire team partner in the tower, depending on whatever,
Lex Fridman (1:31:20.700)
but you would do it every day.
Lex Fridman (1:31:22.200)
So I would look out into the rest of Afghanistan at that opportunity.
Lex Fridman (1:31:26.980)
Otherwise it was just like your walls.
Lex Fridman (1:31:28.300)
What did it look like?
Lex Fridman (1:31:29.700)
Is it beautiful?
Lex Fridman (1:31:31.100)
Just the full landscape?
Lex Fridman (1:31:33.020)
Or is it?
Kelsi Sheren (1:31:34.020)
Where I was, there was mountains in the distance.
Lex Fridman (1:31:36.540)
It was just very sandy, very flat.
Lex Fridman (1:31:39.520)
And there was a couple of small compounds on the outside.
Lex Fridman (1:31:41.900)
It wasn't a lot to look at.
Kelsi Sheren (1:31:43.760)
There was a long road that you knew that got hit all the time.
Lex Fridman (1:31:47.140)
There wasn't a lot to look at.
Kelsi Sheren (1:31:49.900)
Such a strange place to be the center of superpowers over the decades.
Lex Fridman (1:31:56.020)
It really is.
Lex Fridman (1:31:58.860)
And the fact that the populace, the civilians are almost completely clueless to the full
Lex Fridman (1:32:03.340)
history of things in terms of globally, the geopolitics of it all.
Kelsi Sheren (1:32:07.980)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:32:08.980)
Well, if you look at the location of it, right, on a map, it makes more sense.
Kelsi Sheren (1:32:12.180)
Right.
Lex Fridman (1:32:13.180)
You can wrap your brain around it.
Lex Fridman (1:32:15.420)
But I met plenty of people who had never even seen a picture of themselves when I was in
Lex Fridman (1:32:18.500)
that country.
Lex Fridman (1:32:19.500)
I mean, how much more are they going to understand if they don't know what even exists outside?
Kelsi Sheren (1:32:24.740)
You tell a small story of taking a picture of a girl and showing it to her, an Afghani
Kelsi Sheren (1:32:31.580)
girl.
Lex Fridman (1:32:32.580)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (1:32:33.580)
We were, I was with the British at that time, and we were on that operation that gets highlighted
Lex Fridman (1:32:38.180)
quite a bit.
Lex Fridman (1:32:39.580)
And we had stopped and the ICOM radios were pinging.
Lex Fridman (1:32:42.740)
And ICOM radios are a radio that we have an interpreter on that the Taliban, basically
Kelsi Sheren (1:32:49.980)
we can hear what they're saying.
Lex Fridman (1:32:51.420)
It's their comms.
Kelsi Sheren (1:32:52.420)
It's us tapped in.
Lex Fridman (1:32:53.420)
When it's really clear, they're close.
Kelsi Sheren (1:32:56.160)
When it's scatty and they're far enough away, normally they're not planning an attack, although
Lex Fridman (1:33:02.460)
you never know, really.
Lex Fridman (1:33:04.140)
And we were going door to door, kind of like what they're doing now.
Lex Fridman (1:33:09.300)
And we were pulling people out of their houses.
Lex Fridman (1:33:11.140)
And we knew there were, there was people in there that were active Taliban and we knew
Lex Fridman (1:33:14.500)
the ICOMs were pinging.
Kelsi Sheren (1:33:15.500)
When we got in there, they had hidden all the women and kids and locked them inside
Kelsi Sheren (1:33:18.900)
the house because often nowadays women, the women, they would hide things on them that
Kelsi Sheren (1:33:24.580)
they shouldn't have because no one would be ever there to search them because there isn't
Lex Fridman (1:33:28.020)
a lot of women on the front lines.
Lex Fridman (1:33:30.300)
But I got borrowed to go specifically search women and children.
Lex Fridman (1:33:33.540)
So they had me and one of the little girls kind of snuck out and was kind of sitting
Kelsi Sheren (1:33:38.460)
near me and I was eating something and I had these little candies, I think they're called
Lex Fridman (1:33:43.620)
little sweeties.
Kelsi Sheren (1:33:44.620)
The British have them in the ration packs.
Lex Fridman (1:33:46.020)
I don't know.
Kelsi Sheren (1:33:47.020)
They're good though.
Lex Fridman (1:33:48.020)
And she saw me eating them and so I gave them to her and then her brother came over and
Kelsi Sheren (1:33:51.740)
slapped her upside the head and took them from her.
Lex Fridman (1:33:53.900)
So then I just went over and slapped him upside the head and just pointed my gun at her while
Kelsi Sheren (1:33:56.700)
she ate them all because I was like, no, you can have these.
Lex Fridman (1:34:01.060)
I'm going to stand here and make sure you do.
Lex Fridman (1:34:03.900)
And I remember asking, can I take a picture with her?
Lex Fridman (1:34:06.740)
I asked the trip, can you ask her, can I take a picture with her?
Lex Fridman (1:34:10.620)
And she was very confused and when you look at the photo, you see her face, she's very
Lex Fridman (1:34:14.420)
stunned.
Kelsi Sheren (1:34:15.420)
She's very stunned.
Lex Fridman (1:34:16.420)
And it wasn't my camera.
Kelsi Sheren (1:34:17.580)
It was my officer's camera.
Lex Fridman (1:34:18.580)
It was a hot pink, like fluorescent pink camera.
Lex Fridman (1:34:22.260)
So I pulled this like a huge pink thing and I'm like, let's take a picture.
Lex Fridman (1:34:27.400)
And so she stood there and took a picture, but then she grabbed the camera because I
Kelsi Sheren (1:34:30.340)
flipped it and showed it to her and her eyes got huge and she grabbed it and she ran inside
Lex Fridman (1:34:36.100)
and they're like, oh, that's gone forever.
Kelsi Sheren (1:34:37.780)
Like that's, it's over for you.
Lex Fridman (1:34:40.100)
And then she came out and she kind of snuck out and I went in and grabbed it and the mom
Kelsi Sheren (1:34:44.820)
lifted up her burqa and was showing me that she like shaved her legs to be more Western.
Lex Fridman (1:34:50.340)
And I was just, at that moment, I don't know that I could have realized how much that moment
Kelsi Sheren (1:35:00.260)
affected me, how much that moment would affect me later on in my life until it's been later
Lex Fridman (1:35:08.220)
on in my life.
Kelsi Sheren (1:35:09.220)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (1:35:10.220)
There's little like glimmers like that in parts of the world that are basically you're
Kelsi Sheren (1:35:16.880)
taking away everything from the populace, like freedoms and so on.
Lex Fridman (1:35:21.820)
And when they, when you see that glimmer of humanity, like yeah, shaved legs or like using
Kelsi Sheren (1:35:29.620)
technology for the first time, it's magic or like food being presented with certain
Lex Fridman (1:35:34.780)
kinds of foods that you've never tried.
Kelsi Sheren (1:35:36.700)
I mean, you want to see true, like joy of discovery is you bring basically the American
Lex Fridman (1:35:45.220)
supermarket, anything from it to most parts of the world.
Lex Fridman (1:35:49.060)
And they, I just, I mean, I remember even, I mean, we weren't like in poverty in Russia,
Lex Fridman (1:35:55.340)
just poor, but just the supermarket was full of joy.
Kelsi Sheren (1:35:58.420)
I thought I could just die happy in an American supermarket when I first saw it.
Lex Fridman (1:36:02.960)
And how old were you when you came here?
Kelsi Sheren (1:36:04.820)
13.
Lex Fridman (1:36:05.820)
Did you speak English?
Kelsi Sheren (1:36:06.820)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:36:07.820)
Not well, I thought I was, I never was good at languages.
Lex Fridman (1:36:11.420)
So I, it was very much like why would I need to learn another language?
Lex Fridman (1:36:16.500)
Okay.
Kelsi Sheren (1:36:17.500)
It was that attitude is very like, doesn't, I don't, well, no, I think culturally in,
Kelsi Sheren (1:36:24.900)
not only in America, but everywhere else in the world, it's constantly kind of seen, it's
Kelsi Sheren (1:36:30.420)
a good thing to do to learn other languages, especially English, because it's like, that's
Lex Fridman (1:36:35.500)
the language of the world.
Lex Fridman (1:36:37.620)
And I just thought like, I don't need English to discover the beauty of the world.
Lex Fridman (1:36:43.100)
Like this doesn't like, I enjoy life.
Kelsi Sheren (1:36:45.140)
I enjoy soccer.
Kelsi Sheren (1:36:46.340)
I enjoy, I don't remember what else I enjoyed in life, but math, like why do I need English
Lex Fridman (1:36:52.220)
for this?
Lex Fridman (1:36:53.220)
So that kind of attitude got me in a lot of trouble when I came here because I couldn't.
Lex Fridman (1:36:57.860)
You were reluctant?
Lex Fridman (1:36:59.300)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:37:00.300)
But also just couldn't speak well.
Lex Fridman (1:37:01.300)
And when you move 13 years old, it's middle school, you get made fun of a lot.
Kelsi Sheren (1:37:05.820)
You get bullied and all those kinds of things, which in retrospect is a very positive thing
Lex Fridman (1:37:10.260)
because it makes you harder.
Kelsi Sheren (1:37:13.420)
I thought being Russian would be like hard enough.
Lex Fridman (1:37:16.220)
No, well, me, everyone is different.
Kelsi Sheren (1:37:18.660)
I mean, the part of the Russian thing is kind of, I'm joking because if you know me, I admire
Lex Fridman (1:37:26.780)
being hard.
Lex Fridman (1:37:27.780)
I admire fighting and these kinds of things, these, what would you call them?
Kelsi Sheren (1:37:33.780)
Struggle in all of its forms, martial arts, wrestling, all those kinds of things.
Lex Fridman (1:37:37.060)
But I'm ultimately like, I'm so much about love.
Kelsi Sheren (1:37:39.980)
Like I'm clearly sensitive to the world in some weird genetic way that it was important
Kelsi Sheren (1:37:46.380)
for me to harden up when I came here and I was in love with people and everybody's being
Lex Fridman (1:37:52.500)
mean to me.
Lex Fridman (1:37:53.500)
And it's like, what, that, it's a little like slap, like, oh, okay, life is not often fair.
Lex Fridman (1:38:03.020)
And then that's when for me personally, everybody has different journeys of hardship that are
Kelsi Sheren (1:38:07.660)
much, much more difficult, like your story is much more difficult.
Lex Fridman (1:38:12.860)
I started to read a lot.
Kelsi Sheren (1:38:15.480)
Something happens, some kind of challenge where you start to think about the world,
Kelsi Sheren (1:38:18.380)
start to think about yourself, that can ultimately create really interesting minds.
Kelsi Sheren (1:38:24.740)
It can break some people.
Lex Fridman (1:38:25.980)
It can create interesting minds.
Lex Fridman (1:38:27.860)
And it's ultimately your choice.
Lex Fridman (1:38:28.860)
But those people are weak and then they just need to be weeded out.
Kelsi Sheren (1:38:30.940)
I thought we talked about this, you know, the strong will survive, the weak will die
Lex Fridman (1:38:34.260)
off.
Kelsi Sheren (1:38:35.260)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:38:36.260)
Now you're talking Russian to me.
Kelsi Sheren (1:38:38.620)
I'm not speaking Russian.
Lex Fridman (1:38:39.860)
I'm just giving solid life advice.
Kelsi Sheren (1:38:43.860)
Just be harder and then everyone will be fine.
Lex Fridman (1:38:46.780)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (1:38:47.780)
That's your inner David Goggins coming out real quick here.
Lex Fridman (1:38:50.340)
Okay.
Kelsi Sheren (1:38:51.340)
The fob.
Lex Fridman (1:38:52.340)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:38:53.340)
And then I was just explaining to you that the way it is run, you're going to love this.
Kelsi Sheren (1:38:57.340)
When we walked up to those tents for the first time, the people that were there before us
Kelsi Sheren (1:39:01.860)
left us a noose.
Kelsi Sheren (1:39:05.100)
I have a photo of it, like hanging from the tent, like at the front of the tent, like
Kelsi Sheren (1:39:10.300)
welcome.
Lex Fridman (1:39:11.820)
So you were also mentioning like the dark humor of it is a basically a funny joke.
Kelsi Sheren (1:39:17.500)
Correct.
Lex Fridman (1:39:18.500)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (1:39:19.500)
It was funny at first.
Lex Fridman (1:39:20.500)
That's pretty funny.
Kelsi Sheren (1:39:21.500)
It was funny during the time.
Lex Fridman (1:39:22.660)
Now when I look back at it, I was like, come on.
Kelsi Sheren (1:39:26.620)
I mean, I get it because they had already been there.
Lex Fridman (1:39:29.900)
And like, so afterwards I can see how it's funny.
Kelsi Sheren (1:39:34.500)
Now with like the suicide epidemic in the veteran community, now I'm like, oh, I don't
Lex Fridman (1:39:38.940)
post that photo.
Lex Fridman (1:39:39.940)
Really?
Lex Fridman (1:39:40.940)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:39:41.940)
Doesn't that dark humor still somehow help even when you're considering suicide?
Lex Fridman (1:39:45.540)
Doesn't it?
Kelsi Sheren (1:39:46.540)
Some of it.
Lex Fridman (1:39:47.540)
Somehow.
Kelsi Sheren (1:39:48.540)
It makes it copable.
Lex Fridman (1:39:49.540)
Somehow.
Kelsi Sheren (1:39:50.540)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:39:51.540)
It's like you're not hiding it.
Kelsi Sheren (1:39:52.540)
It's like humor is one of the ways to reveal the reality of abuse, of suffering.
Kelsi Sheren (1:39:59.980)
If you look at, there's this photo that generates right around suicide prevention month, which
Kelsi Sheren (1:40:04.060)
is September.
Lex Fridman (1:40:05.900)
And it's always like a photo of like Robin Williams and Bourdain and all of these other
Kelsi Sheren (1:40:10.140)
individuals who were comedians who all took their lives and they're all smiling.
Lex Fridman (1:40:15.540)
And they're like, this is the face of depression.
Kelsi Sheren (1:40:19.100)
There's a way our brains work where humor is a necessary part of survival, whether it's
Lex Fridman (1:40:26.460)
used for joyous things or it's used for ways to cope through life.
Kelsi Sheren (1:40:31.760)
For me in the military, humor was one of the things that helped get me through.
Lex Fridman (1:40:35.220)
And it still does to this day, frankly, because humor, humor makes some of the horrific things
Kelsi Sheren (1:40:43.540)
I say not seem so horrific.
Lex Fridman (1:40:47.100)
And people can digest it rather than being like, you need to be locked up somewhere.
Kelsi Sheren (1:40:53.060)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (1:40:54.060)
That's why, I mean, one of the aspects of Russian humor, there's a darkness to it because
Kelsi Sheren (1:41:01.620)
through it reverberates all the millions of people who died.
Lex Fridman (1:41:06.340)
And it seems like the only way to make sense of it is to joke about it.
Kelsi Sheren (1:41:10.340)
I still love it.
Lex Fridman (1:41:11.340)
Because if you don't, it'll break you.
Kelsi Sheren (1:41:13.740)
Something like that.
Kelsi Sheren (1:41:14.740)
Or also humor just seems to be the highest form of us humans and the human experience.
Kelsi Sheren (1:41:22.100)
It just seems, it seems to somehow accumulate the full thing, the absurdity of it, the unfairness
Kelsi Sheren (1:41:28.600)
of it, because like ultimately all the suffering is like, it's all just apes fighting for power
Lex Fridman (1:41:35.060)
and love and somehow torturing each other in the process.
Lex Fridman (1:41:40.020)
Hello podcast listener, Lex here.
Kelsi Sheren (1:41:42.700)
Quick intermission to say that some of the names in the following story have been silenced
Lex Fridman (1:41:46.660)
out to protect their privacy.
Kelsi Sheren (1:41:49.940)
The story of, and witnessing, I think your first, somebody you met, somebody you saw,
Lex Fridman (1:42:01.540)
somebody you began to be close with, his life, him dying, can you tell the story of him dying?
Kelsi Sheren (1:42:12.220)
Sure.
Lex Fridman (1:42:13.220)
That's no problem.
Kelsi Sheren (1:42:14.540)
I will tell you that I am going to leave some of the names out of the people because they
Lex Fridman (1:42:20.940)
have reached out and asked that I do such.
Kelsi Sheren (1:42:24.020)
I've also been informed of other things I forgot that happened during the thing that
Lex Fridman (1:42:28.360)
were way worse than I thought.
Lex Fridman (1:42:30.140)
So I'll try to add those in because that's new information to me because my brain has
Lex Fridman (1:42:34.660)
blocked it out.
Lex Fridman (1:42:35.660)
But I've been told, which is good because it's better detail.
Lex Fridman (1:42:39.740)
So we were doing a movement that morning and we were going from compound to compound.
Kelsi Sheren (1:42:47.020)
I was never told what we were doing.
Lex Fridman (1:42:49.740)
I knew what my job was.
Kelsi Sheren (1:42:51.180)
I didn't know the operational overview.
Lex Fridman (1:42:53.500)
I didn't know who we were looking for.
Kelsi Sheren (1:42:56.900)
I wasn't there for that.
Kelsi Sheren (1:42:58.060)
My job was specifically to look after the women and children and to provide support
Kelsi Sheren (1:43:03.320)
if need be.
Lex Fridman (1:43:05.040)
And when you have certain people, so i.e. the bomb dog handler and the bomb dog, and
Kelsi Sheren (1:43:11.460)
then you have the medics and then you have a female searcher, there's only one of those
Lex Fridman (1:43:16.700)
in each unit or if there's even one in each unit.
Kelsi Sheren (1:43:20.020)
I got passed between units so that they could have access to me for both.
Lex Fridman (1:43:26.160)
And we were kind of sitting and we were waiting for the all clear to move.
Lex Fridman (1:43:30.480)
And at that time, the compound wall I was leaning up against, I had my back up against.
Lex Fridman (1:43:37.740)
I wasn't facing the direct direction where it actually blew up.
Kelsi Sheren (1:43:42.180)
I had my back to it and I had happened to turn and look to the left.
Lex Fridman (1:43:46.940)
And on the right hand side across the road of where we were leaned up against was another
Kelsi Sheren (1:43:52.080)
compound two stories high, people inside, a sniper on the roof and a spotter.
Lex Fridman (1:43:59.740)
There was a handful of us on this wall and in front of me, there was a road.
Kelsi Sheren (1:44:07.660)
The road went straight.
Lex Fridman (1:44:09.580)
That compounds here.
Kelsi Sheren (1:44:10.580)
There's another road here on the right hand side in front of it.
Lex Fridman (1:44:13.380)
And then this road went along here and this was a wide open space.
Kelsi Sheren (1:44:17.660)
Just a huge.
Lex Fridman (1:44:20.160)
We hate those.
Kelsi Sheren (1:44:21.220)
You hate those because it's too much space.
Lex Fridman (1:44:23.800)
It's too easy.
Kelsi Sheren (1:44:24.800)
It's like fish in a barrel.
Lex Fridman (1:44:26.440)
You don't want to be in that field.
Kelsi Sheren (1:44:29.720)
Because there's too much line of sight line of sight.
Lex Fridman (1:44:32.820)
Could be IEDs.
Kelsi Sheren (1:44:33.820)
It could be.
Lex Fridman (1:44:34.820)
It could be.
Kelsi Sheren (1:44:35.820)
It could be anything.
Lex Fridman (1:44:36.820)
And so when I was leaning up against the wall, we had sent a couple of people ahead to go
Lex Fridman (1:44:45.900)
and clear the road so that we could all go along it and then clear the gray pup off to
Lex Fridman (1:44:50.420)
the left hand side.
Kelsi Sheren (1:44:52.460)
We are doing that because they use those locations to put IEDs so that when you're going to search
Kelsi Sheren (1:44:57.900)
it, it's just it's a better chance of you blowing into a million pieces, essentially
Lex Fridman (1:45:03.140)
why they love that.
Lex Fridman (1:45:04.660)
Put bombs in small places, send people into small places.
Kelsi Sheren (1:45:07.460)
Small places go boom, they paint the walls.
Lex Fridman (1:45:10.580)
So we were just kind of sitting and waiting.
Lex Fridman (1:45:13.580)
And then I turned, I happened to turn, I was looking in that direction and I heard the
Lex Fridman (1:45:17.880)
ground shake before I even realized what I was seeing with my own eyes.
Kelsi Sheren (1:45:22.380)
The ground shook and I saw a big piece of a body, I think it was the torso, just kind
Lex Fridman (1:45:33.100)
of fly through the air and land into the field.
Lex Fridman (1:45:37.820)
And as soon as that happened, all hell broke loose.
Lex Fridman (1:45:40.860)
It was like the, they were sitting and watching and waiting and they do that.
Lex Fridman (1:45:44.960)
And I say they, I mean the Taliban, they do that.
Kelsi Sheren (1:45:47.020)
They love that because then they can record it for propaganda and they can use it against
Kelsi Sheren (1:45:51.020)
us and they just love being able to take our people out.
Lex Fridman (1:45:55.220)
And we had the interpreter sitting beside me and he had the ICOM radio on.
Lex Fridman (1:45:59.900)
And as soon as the blast went off, I heard just the scream of, I heard it.
Lex Fridman (1:46:06.960)
And I knew what that meant, but I couldn't, I didn't understand what was about to happen.
Kelsi Sheren (1:46:13.900)
I couldn't, I couldn't wrap my brain around what was about to happen because I had never
Lex Fridman (1:46:20.740)
been outside the wire.
Lex Fridman (1:46:23.980)
And people are like, people say to me now, they're like, no, no, there's no way that
Lex Fridman (1:46:29.240)
shit's true.
Kelsi Sheren (1:46:30.240)
There's no way that she was involved in that and then that, and then in that, and then
Lex Fridman (1:46:33.260)
in that.
Kelsi Sheren (1:46:34.260)
Well, let me explain.
Lex Fridman (1:46:35.540)
I was one person.
Kelsi Sheren (1:46:37.740)
I was being passed around to units.
Lex Fridman (1:46:42.240)
I was with a ton of different people.
Kelsi Sheren (1:46:46.100)
I had no comms and I was just being told where to go.
Lex Fridman (1:46:52.700)
And I just happened to be like a shit hit the fan magnet, it felt like.
Lex Fridman (1:46:57.940)
And then I found out later it was not just me, it was all of us were getting it.
Lex Fridman (1:47:02.280)
So that made me feel better because then I was like, well, I have a lot of survivor's
Kelsi Sheren (1:47:05.860)
guilt.
Lex Fridman (1:47:06.860)
That's like a thing that's still stuck with me.
Kelsi Sheren (1:47:08.380)
I've worked through a lot of shit, but survivor's guilt, that's a big one for me.
Lex Fridman (1:47:13.140)
And food is a big one for me and my food skin on food.
Lex Fridman (1:47:21.260)
So like chicken with skin on it, just because of the biology of death, just when you hold
Kelsi Sheren (1:47:28.460)
people's bodies in your hands with no gloves on, you know what that feels like when you
Kelsi Sheren (1:47:33.820)
touch raw meat again, it's the same thing.
Lex Fridman (1:47:37.220)
That's what that feels like when, when it's a dying or dead body.
Kelsi Sheren (1:47:40.340)
Well, my friend was blown into a million pieces, so I just had pieces of him.
Lex Fridman (1:47:45.620)
So there was no, there was no differentiator of like, this was his thigh, or this was his
Kelsi Sheren (1:47:54.420)
torso, or there was like, there was none of that.
Kelsi Sheren (1:47:58.500)
There's only one instance with the boot, but at that point we had been in some firefights,
Lex Fridman (1:48:07.540)
and we had been taking some rounds, but it was more like take around, you know, get hit
Lex Fridman (1:48:13.820)
and then we duck into a compound and we would set up and then we'd be firing.
Kelsi Sheren (1:48:17.260)
I wasn't, I wasn't really involved in a lot of the firefights until after this.
Kelsi Sheren (1:48:21.620)
After that, the rest of the week, I was like, I was angry and I wanted them all to go.
Lex Fridman (1:48:25.820)
And I wanted to be in every position to take them out myself.
Lex Fridman (1:48:28.600)
So I put myself in every position.
Lex Fridman (1:48:30.660)
So I made sure I was on the roof.
Lex Fridman (1:48:31.940)
I made sure I was there.
Kelsi Sheren (1:48:33.020)
I made sure, Hey, you need something, I'll fucking run it.
Kelsi Sheren (1:48:35.100)
I don't care if I die anymore, because as soon as that happened, my light switch went
Kelsi Sheren (1:48:38.220)
off.
Lex Fridman (1:48:39.220)
It didn't matter anymore to me.
Lex Fridman (1:48:40.940)
Can you go through what happens?
Lex Fridman (1:48:42.780)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:48:43.780)
So are you hearing the, these screams?
Lex Fridman (1:48:46.860)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:48:47.860)
So the ID went off and what had happened was they put an ID inside of a grape hut and the
Lex Fridman (1:48:54.540)
grape hut has rectangular wall, rectangular holes in the wall.
Lex Fridman (1:48:58.600)
And there's just like one door and it's this tall mud hut with just all these like holes
Lex Fridman (1:49:03.260)
in it.
Lex Fridman (1:49:05.020)
And they had put an ID underneath a pile of sticks and had a metal detector, the Brits
Lex Fridman (1:49:11.540)
carry them.
Kelsi Sheren (1:49:12.540)
I've never seen, I think other countries have them, but I've only ever seen them use it.
Lex Fridman (1:49:15.980)
And that's how we were kind of detecting if there was an ID, we must've hit it, the sticks
Kelsi Sheren (1:49:20.820)
or something and it set it off.
Lex Fridman (1:49:22.700)
And it just, it was over.
Kelsi Sheren (1:49:24.620)
There's no way he felt anything.
Lex Fridman (1:49:25.620)
And then there was another guy at the door bent down on one knee and he was facing and
Kelsi Sheren (1:49:30.900)
kind of watching for, and then a blast hit him on this side.
Lex Fridman (1:49:35.860)
And so it took him out and pulled his kid off, pulled his helmet off, pulled everything
Kelsi Sheren (1:49:38.580)
off, fucked him all up.
Lex Fridman (1:49:40.700)
Big time.
Kelsi Sheren (1:49:41.700)
This is one ID.
Lex Fridman (1:49:43.460)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:49:44.460)
But it was in a contained area and he was in the doorway, up and out.
Lex Fridman (1:49:50.140)
Can you explain what an ID is and how does it work?
Kelsi Sheren (1:49:54.220)
I can do my best.
Lex Fridman (1:49:55.660)
They're improvised explosive devices.
Kelsi Sheren (1:49:57.380)
They can be used pretty much out of anything to make anything.
Lex Fridman (1:50:00.740)
So garbage, when we got to Afghanistan, they did the ID meeting with us.
Kelsi Sheren (1:50:05.660)
They're like, these are what we're finding that they would show us diffused IDs.
Lex Fridman (1:50:09.340)
So they would see those big blue drums filled with gasoline buried in the ground.
Kelsi Sheren (1:50:14.220)
You would see a wire, it would go to a pressure plate.
Lex Fridman (1:50:16.980)
You hit the pressure plate, that would hit that and it would go.
Kelsi Sheren (1:50:20.620)
You would see IDs.
Lex Fridman (1:50:21.620)
Some of them were ridiculous.
Kelsi Sheren (1:50:24.380)
The engineering that went into some of these was hilarious because they were thinking,
Lex Fridman (1:50:29.660)
they were thinking to use everything they could.
Kelsi Sheren (1:50:31.900)
There was a cigarette pack they had used.
Kelsi Sheren (1:50:34.680)
They lined the inside with tinfoil and when you stepped on the tinfoil, it had a piece
Kelsi Sheren (1:50:38.580)
of wire and it was enough of a spark to set off a line of batteries that we had thrown
Lex Fridman (1:50:42.540)
out that were all dead.
Kelsi Sheren (1:50:43.820)
When you fuse them all together, there was enough juice to make it go.
Kelsi Sheren (1:50:47.220)
Then they would attach that to like, like phosphorus or gasoline or whatever they could
Kelsi Sheren (1:50:51.840)
that would make a big boom.
Lex Fridman (1:50:53.940)
They would use, yeah, that's why you never kick garbage on the ground.
Kelsi Sheren (1:50:57.860)
You'll never see me kick something on the ground.
Lex Fridman (1:50:59.940)
You'll see me walk around it always.
Kelsi Sheren (1:51:01.420)
If I ever see a pile of rocks or something that looks like it shouldn't be there, I won't
Lex Fridman (1:51:05.820)
walk near it.
Kelsi Sheren (1:51:07.180)
Even now, because they use that pile of rocks to remind people there's something there.
Lex Fridman (1:51:12.140)
We don't know what that means, but we know that something's there.
Lex Fridman (1:51:14.700)
And very often they would use anything, garbage, wires.
Lex Fridman (1:51:20.100)
We were very, we had to burn everything for a reason.
Kelsi Sheren (1:51:24.220)
It's so terrifying to not, for the source of death to be like little parts of the environment
Lex Fridman (1:51:32.980)
and then people that don't look like that.
Kelsi Sheren (1:51:36.940)
They're not dressed as soldiers, like civilians and like regular, because then you, when you
Kelsi Sheren (1:51:42.660)
have to come back or even there is you're just surrounded by danger and then you distrust
Kelsi Sheren (1:51:48.660)
everything essentially.
Kelsi Sheren (1:51:49.660)
That's the problem and that's why you have such PTSD issues with the soldiers we have
Kelsi Sheren (1:51:54.740)
now because you're in the environment in which it's very similar.
Lex Fridman (1:52:02.300)
So there's this one IED.
Lex Fridman (1:52:03.740)
So this one IED, I still don't know what it was, went off, body flew, the guy at the door,
Lex Fridman (1:52:12.380)
he kicked out.
Kelsi Sheren (1:52:13.380)
He was all broken and bleeding and a mess.
Lex Fridman (1:52:19.500)
At that point, the radio started going crazy.
Kelsi Sheren (1:52:21.700)
I could hear the guys yelling and screaming, trying to figure it out and then you could
Lex Fridman (1:52:25.580)
hear the numbers being called.
Kelsi Sheren (1:52:27.380)
KIA number, number, number, number.
Lex Fridman (1:52:29.620)
I don't know anybody's service number.
Kelsi Sheren (1:52:31.140)
I don't know what's going on.
Kelsi Sheren (1:52:33.740)
Next thing you know, mortar rounds start coming down and live fire starts happening and I'm
Kelsi Sheren (1:52:39.020)
like, holy fuck, things are popping off.
Lex Fridman (1:52:42.500)
And I remember just looking at and being like, we need to go, we need to go now.
Lex Fridman (1:52:46.580)
And I just got this like, I was like, we're going and they're like, hold on Burns and
Lex Fridman (1:52:52.020)
I'm like, we're fucking going.
Kelsi Sheren (1:52:53.900)
I wasn't dealing with it well and they're like, all right, all right, go, go, go, go.
Lex Fridman (1:52:58.460)
So we went and I helped out with that other individual, kind of held him down, started
Kelsi Sheren (1:53:08.000)
doing medic work on him and he just kept saying, where's, where's, where's, he was in such
Lex Fridman (1:53:13.820)
a state of shock.
Kelsi Sheren (1:53:14.820)
I've seen somebody's eyeballs so big in my life.
Lex Fridman (1:53:16.620)
She's like, where's, where's, where's, he's good buddy, he's good, he's good.
Kelsi Sheren (1:53:21.540)
Picture like a super thick Scottish accent though, because these guys were just, and
Lex Fridman (1:53:26.420)
when they talk fast, it's even worse.
Lex Fridman (1:53:29.140)
And then so I ran over and we jumped down into the ditch along the side of the road
Kelsi Sheren (1:53:33.300)
because the road hadn't been cleared and we're running through these tall, they look like
Kelsi Sheren (1:53:39.980)
cannabis plants, but they're not, but it just very thick bush and I felt like I was running
Lex Fridman (1:53:46.580)
in slow motion.
Lex Fridman (1:53:47.580)
So if you picture one of your video games where like the tunnel vision and you're just,
Kelsi Sheren (1:53:50.940)
you can hear your breathing is like that and you're running and you can't move fast enough
Lex Fridman (1:53:56.220)
and you're like trying to get there and we hit the road and the rounds are coming down
Lex Fridman (1:54:03.620)
and mortars are coming down and they're like, okay, on three run.
Lex Fridman (1:54:06.740)
So we run on three and we run into the compound, I mean, into the great putt.
Lex Fridman (1:54:11.620)
And I remember looking around and very seriously going, where is he?
Kelsi Sheren (1:54:17.420)
Just genuinely asking, I think it was been messaging me and he's been incredible.
Lex Fridman (1:54:23.760)
He's one of the best soldiers I've ever served with.
Kelsi Sheren (1:54:26.940)
He was a higher up, so he was running part of this.
Kelsi Sheren (1:54:29.980)
He's messaged me and he was giving me some information and he's like, I was in there
Kelsi Sheren (1:54:33.920)
with you and he goes, I remember cause you handed me the boot and cause I walked over
Lex Fridman (1:54:38.460)
and I, all the rounds were like, we were being shot at, mortars were coming down, but it
Kelsi Sheren (1:54:42.860)
was this slow motion and I remember walking over to the hole in the ground and seeing
Kelsi Sheren (1:54:50.300)
his boot in the ground, but it was, his leg was still hanging, like just below his knee
Kelsi Sheren (1:54:57.820)
was still in it, but the boot was perfectly laced up, like the boot was fine.
Lex Fridman (1:55:03.860)
And I just, I held it and I turned and I looked at the guys and I was like, we could reuse
Kelsi Sheren (1:55:09.220)
the boot.
Lex Fridman (1:55:13.500)
Now that wasn't even, what is, what is that?
Kelsi Sheren (1:55:17.060)
Was that, was that actually an intelligent attempt at humor or was it some kind of deeply
Lex Fridman (1:55:25.460)
lost?
Kelsi Sheren (1:55:26.460)
Like you were completely just lost.
Lex Fridman (1:55:27.740)
I think my brain broke.
Kelsi Sheren (1:55:29.940)
I think my, that's the moment I call my light switch went off.
Lex Fridman (1:55:35.180)
Did you understand that he was dead at that point?
Kelsi Sheren (1:55:37.700)
Like intellectually, you were just something, it just broke.
Lex Fridman (1:55:45.180)
No emotion.
Kelsi Sheren (1:55:46.180)
Like it just broke.
Lex Fridman (1:55:47.180)
It just shattered.
Kelsi Sheren (1:55:48.180)
It shattered.
Lex Fridman (1:55:49.180)
I felt it happen.
Kelsi Sheren (1:55:50.180)
Felt.
Lex Fridman (1:55:51.180)
I didn't feel, I didn't feel anything.
Kelsi Sheren (1:56:06.020)
It just broke.
Lex Fridman (1:56:08.500)
And at that moment, because later there's some anger almost at that moment, none of
Kelsi Sheren (1:56:15.260)
that.
Lex Fridman (1:56:16.260)
I couldn't comprehend what happened.
Kelsi Sheren (1:56:17.260)
I knew he wasn't there anymore because they looked at me and said, what's here is here.
Lex Fridman (1:56:23.020)
Start grabbing pieces.
Kelsi Sheren (1:56:24.300)
We need to fucking move.
Lex Fridman (1:56:26.420)
And so I handed the boot over, they took it and then I started just grabbing anything
Kelsi Sheren (1:56:32.780)
out of the walls because those little rectangular just had flesh hanging from it.
Lex Fridman (1:56:38.680)
And I didn't have my gloves on because I only used them to search.
Lex Fridman (1:56:42.820)
So you want to bring everything back.
Lex Fridman (1:56:48.780)
This is what, even if they're dead, do you want to save, save those you served with?
Kelsi Sheren (1:56:55.100)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:56:56.100)
Because they deserve that.
Kelsi Sheren (1:56:57.200)
They don't deserve to have a piece of them drug behind a truck for propaganda.
Lex Fridman (1:57:00.380)
It's not, it's not fair.
Lex Fridman (1:57:02.260)
What are the others?
Lex Fridman (1:57:03.260)
I mean, was there just a focus on mission or was there a panic?
Kelsi Sheren (1:57:07.260)
No panic with these guys.
Lex Fridman (1:57:08.980)
These guys were the most switched on motherfuckers I've ever seen in my life.
Kelsi Sheren (1:57:12.540)
They, we started grabbing and remind me, he said, you know, you, uh, that's not, he goes,
Kelsi Sheren (1:57:19.600)
when people say that's the worst part of your day, that wasn't even the worst part of your
Kelsi Sheren (1:57:21.820)
day.
Lex Fridman (1:57:22.820)
Do you remember when you handed me the bag of intestines?
Kelsi Sheren (1:57:27.780)
No.
Lex Fridman (1:57:29.780)
No, I do though.
Kelsi Sheren (1:57:34.700)
Thank you for that.
Lex Fridman (1:57:36.300)
So there's parts you don't even, they're just not.
Kelsi Sheren (1:57:39.060)
They don't register.
Lex Fridman (1:57:42.340)
Because I had some people contact me and be like, you didn't tell it right.
Lex Fridman (1:57:45.740)
And war is subjective and war is from your perspective and war is messy and horrific
Lex Fridman (1:57:51.660)
and war is graphic and violent and painful.
Kelsi Sheren (1:58:03.360)
Your brain remembers what it wants to remember and your brain allows you to remember what
Kelsi Sheren (1:58:07.300)
it allows you to remember and there's reasons that you don't remember everything.
Lex Fridman (1:58:12.660)
And so we were getting, we were really getting hit.
Lex Fridman (1:58:17.660)
We were getting, it was bad.
Lex Fridman (1:58:19.860)
And some of the guys, machine gunners had come up to do cover fire and I know, uh, we
Kelsi Sheren (1:58:25.420)
were calling in for air support to come pick up the guys, uh, because they had to go.
Lex Fridman (1:58:32.420)
And we, we just collected everything we could, but I did remember screaming like, we didn't
Lex Fridman (1:58:39.020)
get them all.
Kelsi Sheren (1:58:40.020)
We didn't get them all.
Lex Fridman (1:58:41.020)
There's no way we got them all.
Kelsi Sheren (1:58:42.020)
We did not fucking get them all.
Lex Fridman (1:58:43.020)
And I remember one of the guys looking at me being like, we got them, we got them.
Kelsi Sheren (1:58:45.020)
I'm like, we didn't fucking get them.
Lex Fridman (1:58:46.020)
We didn't get them.
Kelsi Sheren (1:58:47.020)
Like, no, we got them.
Lex Fridman (1:58:48.020)
And I couldn't say it enough.
Lex Fridman (1:58:50.780)
And so I grabbed as much as I could.
Kelsi Sheren (1:58:54.180)
I, I, I, um, I slung one of their weapons and it was just a twisted heap and I had his
Kelsi Sheren (1:59:00.380)
helmet and someone else's helmet in my arm.
Lex Fridman (1:59:03.500)
And then I had, um, my weapon in front of me and I was carrying it.
Lex Fridman (1:59:10.020)
And then we, we piled everything we had onto a stretcher.
Lex Fridman (1:59:13.740)
Those things are super fucking flimsy anyway.
Lex Fridman (1:59:16.700)
And there was a couple of guys in front of us and there were a couple behind me and I
Lex Fridman (1:59:20.060)
was kind of in the middle and we, we said, okay, we're just gonna have to run.
Kelsi Sheren (1:59:24.500)
We're gonna have to fucking run the road.
Lex Fridman (1:59:25.500)
We're gonna have to have to run it.
Kelsi Sheren (1:59:26.500)
It was a chance.
Kelsi Sheren (1:59:27.500)
We ran it and that was the closest, well, that was I guess not the closest, but it felt
Kelsi Sheren (1:59:32.440)
like it was the closest I could hear the, the whiz of the rounds going by me.
Kelsi Sheren (1:59:38.980)
It's a weird noise when they're coming at you than when you're, they're leaving you.
Lex Fridman (1:59:43.980)
And so they, that slowed everything down for me.
Lex Fridman (1:59:47.860)
And then one of the guys accidentally dropped the edge of the stretcher and everything fell
Kelsi Sheren (1:59:51.400)
off into the ditch and then we had to go back down and get it back up.
Lex Fridman (1:59:56.380)
And then so we kept running and we finally got back into the compound that that sniper
Kelsi Sheren (20:02.640)
the military or not, it's not like you know, like none of us know what the best trajectory
Lex Fridman (20:07.640)
for a life is.
Kelsi Sheren (20:08.960)
For many people going to the military is a really, makes them incredible human beings.
Lex Fridman (20:13.520)
Some of the best people in this world I know are soldiers.
Lex Fridman (20:16.360)
So it's, I'm not, I don't mean like it's somehow bad to go to the military.
Kelsi Sheren (20:20.320)
I think it's a great choice, but there is something, the honest truth is I just don't
Kelsi Sheren (20:25.800)
like marketing people.
Lex Fridman (20:28.560)
And so this is essentially a marketing effort.
Kelsi Sheren (20:30.560)
Yeah, it is a marketing effort.
Lex Fridman (20:31.920)
So which one do you like as a marketing effort better?
Kelsi Sheren (20:34.880)
Russia.
Lex Fridman (20:35.880)
Oh, yeah, I do.
Kelsi Sheren (20:36.880)
There you go.
Lex Fridman (20:37.880)
I do.
Lex Fridman (20:38.880)
Cause Canada doesn't, you know what our recruiting videos are?
Lex Fridman (20:41.520)
It's like, I love it.
Kelsi Sheren (20:44.200)
They're the best.
Lex Fridman (20:45.200)
Sorry, eh?
Kelsi Sheren (20:46.200)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (20:47.200)
Oh, fuck.
Kelsi Sheren (20:48.200)
Here we go.
Lex Fridman (20:49.200)
It's starting.
Kelsi Sheren (20:50.200)
It started.
Lex Fridman (20:51.200)
Awesome.
Lex Fridman (20:52.200)
So Canada does these ones where it's like, it'll have a bunch of like soldiers doing
Lex Fridman (20:55.760)
movements and then they'll like snip it together really quick.
Kelsi Sheren (20:58.240)
It'll be like a Navy one and a guy jumping out of a plane and then it'll be like an artillery
Lex Fridman (21:02.840)
and then like an armored and it'd be like, join the Canadian forces today.
Lex Fridman (21:07.600)
And like, that's like their, their videos.
Lex Fridman (21:10.300)
So it's like very marketable, very palatable to Canadians who don't really want war and
Kelsi Sheren (21:16.000)
who don't really acknowledge their military in the first place and do everything they
Lex Fridman (21:20.000)
can to make sure that vets don't get any support when they come home.
Lex Fridman (21:24.160)
So they, I can see why that one is acceptable.
Lex Fridman (21:27.640)
What Russia did was meant to be more of an intimidation tactic in my opinion.
Kelsi Sheren (21:33.000)
I like that style better though.
Lex Fridman (21:35.080)
I think we need harder, I think we need people to be harder.
Kelsi Sheren (21:38.600)
I think it's acceptable and okay to say that our soldiers need to have a harder mindset,
Kelsi Sheren (21:43.520)
a stronger mindset, a better mentality and mental health support going into the service
Lex Fridman (21:48.120)
and a harder body because I know when you go to the US, I've also encountered plenty
Lex Fridman (21:54.200)
of soldiers that are 600 pounds.
Lex Fridman (21:57.000)
What are you going to do?
Lex Fridman (21:59.340)
So we should say that you, when you joined the military, you were in incredible shape
Kelsi Sheren (22:03.200)
or not maybe incredible, but very good shape.
Lex Fridman (22:05.760)
No, I was in incredible shape.
Kelsi Sheren (22:06.760)
It was the best shape of my life.
Lex Fridman (22:07.760)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (22:08.760)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (22:09.760)
So.
Kelsi Sheren (22:10.760)
I'm okay with that.
Lex Fridman (22:11.760)
It's okay.
Lex Fridman (22:12.760)
I, you know what?
Lex Fridman (22:13.760)
I used to do sit ups.
Kelsi Sheren (22:14.760)
Like no, I would do sit ups in the morning when I was little until I could see my six.
Lex Fridman (22:18.080)
Like I always had a six pack because all I did was train.
Lex Fridman (22:21.520)
But like if I couldn't like see it, I would just sit there in morning cartoons and just
Lex Fridman (22:26.120)
do sit ups.
Lex Fridman (22:27.120)
And my mom and dad thought that was like normal acceptable behavior.
Lex Fridman (22:30.180)
So if you had like Instagram back then, you'd be a David Goggins, you would be just like
Kelsi Sheren (22:33.600)
screaming.
Lex Fridman (22:34.600)
Without the cursing.
Kelsi Sheren (22:35.600)
That cursing started once the military started.
Lex Fridman (22:37.080)
Okay.
Kelsi Sheren (22:38.080)
Got it.
Lex Fridman (22:39.080)
So I mean, the people should know, is it probably already know that you also competed in Taekwondo,
Kelsi Sheren (22:43.160)
like you were an athlete of all kinds.
Lex Fridman (22:45.280)
They even saw rugby in there.
Kelsi Sheren (22:47.600)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (22:48.600)
I was, I was, I was good at rugby.
Kelsi Sheren (22:50.280)
I played that for seven, six years, I guess you could say total.
Lex Fridman (22:55.920)
I think the worst injury I ever ended up having was I tore my right eyelid off.
Kelsi Sheren (23:00.840)
We were doing an exhibition game.
Lex Fridman (23:02.660)
I don't do exhibition games well.
Kelsi Sheren (23:04.160)
I don't do like for fun well.
Lex Fridman (23:06.120)
I don't do like.
Lex Fridman (23:07.120)
So you're very competitive.
Lex Fridman (23:08.120)
No, not me.
Lex Fridman (23:09.880)
So you're being funny.
Lex Fridman (23:10.880)
Ah, there it is.
Kelsi Sheren (23:11.880)
He gets it.
Lex Fridman (23:12.880)
You see, he's not, he's not a robot.
Lex Fridman (23:15.480)
What I was saying though to you was that we did an exhibition game and the team ahead
Lex Fridman (23:23.940)
was winning.
Kelsi Sheren (23:24.940)
The team we were playing was winning, which was annoying.
Lex Fridman (23:28.400)
And so there was an opportunity to take out a girl that was going one end of the field
Kelsi Sheren (23:33.680)
to the other and she just kept hitting tries left, right and center.
Lex Fridman (23:36.840)
She was fast.
Lex Fridman (23:37.960)
So I figured if I just aimed her up, like she's a target and I just run full force at
Kelsi Sheren (23:42.740)
her because she was really, she was a tall individual, but I just, if I do that, I'll
Kelsi Sheren (23:47.360)
take her out of the knees.
Lex Fridman (23:48.360)
So I did that.
Lex Fridman (23:50.800)
But that, what that resulted in was she put her tooth through her mouth guard and knocked
Lex Fridman (23:53.940)
out and didn't just, she just stayed there.
Lex Fridman (23:55.480)
But when I stood up, I tore the right eyelid off and it was hanging from the inner corner.
Lex Fridman (24:00.440)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (24:01.440)
My mom was there cause mom was my mom's, my biggest fan and she's supportive of everything
Lex Fridman (24:07.800)
and she didn't miss a game.
Kelsi Sheren (24:08.800)
She didn't miss an anything.
Lex Fridman (24:10.900)
And um, I stood up and I kind of turned around and we already had a girl break her nose that
Kelsi Sheren (24:14.760)
day.
Lex Fridman (24:15.760)
So she was on the sideline with her nose sideways and just bloody.
Kelsi Sheren (24:19.020)
My mom was like, I'll take her to the emergency after once the game's over.
Lex Fridman (24:22.760)
And so I turned around and looked at her and she just, she almost vomited on the spot and
Lex Fridman (24:26.680)
I was like, what's wrong?
Lex Fridman (24:27.680)
She's like, don't move your eyelids off.
Kelsi Sheren (24:29.960)
I'm like, but I can see like I was trying to blink, but like it was just down so I could
Lex Fridman (24:34.120)
just constantly see.
Kelsi Sheren (24:36.080)
She's like, we're just, we're just going to go to the emergency.
Lex Fridman (24:37.880)
We're just going to go there now.
Lex Fridman (24:39.640)
Was there blood?
Lex Fridman (24:40.640)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (24:41.640)
There's lots of it, but I couldn't really tell.
Lex Fridman (24:43.360)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (24:44.360)
Were you okay with blood at that point?
Lex Fridman (24:46.360)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (24:47.360)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (24:48.360)
I mean, I guess you did taekwondo and all that.
Kelsi Sheren (24:49.360)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (24:50.360)
I didn't get knocked out very often.
Kelsi Sheren (24:51.360)
Like when I was younger in taekwondo, I was really good.
Lex Fridman (24:53.720)
I only lost a handful of times.
Lex Fridman (24:56.400)
So when I did lose, that was bad.
Lex Fridman (24:59.080)
But I never had like a broken nose or a lot of blood on my face, like nothing like that
Kelsi Sheren (25:04.400)
really.
Lex Fridman (25:05.400)
So nothing freaked me out too much.
Lex Fridman (25:07.920)
Was there aggression there or just purely competition over skill?
Lex Fridman (25:12.360)
A mix of both.
Kelsi Sheren (25:14.000)
I was, this was right after, not too long after my coach went to prison for statutory
Kelsi Sheren (25:19.960)
rape and that was like how you talk about Park talking about how that was like she knew
Kelsi Sheren (25:27.800)
love because of that person.
Lex Fridman (25:31.040)
That person was like a God to me.
Lex Fridman (25:33.460)
And so when that happened, I was just an angry individual from that point on.
Lex Fridman (25:36.240)
So there was competition and aggression mixed in there.
Kelsi Sheren (25:38.680)
Oh, like it was betrayal that there's just somebody that is, was a symbol of love for
Lex Fridman (25:44.200)
you, could also be a very bad person.
Kelsi Sheren (25:46.640)
I used to eat, sleep, and breathe whatever that man said from four years old on.
Lex Fridman (25:52.000)
I lived with my coaches at a point so I could train that much.
Kelsi Sheren (25:56.440)
I helped look after their daughter.
Lex Fridman (25:58.140)
I was at the club 24 seven.
Kelsi Sheren (26:00.240)
It just the idea that somebody could do something like that, yeah, that really messed me up.
Lex Fridman (26:05.880)
Where were you on 9 11?
Kelsi Sheren (26:10.200)
I was 11 and I was in my parents basement.
Lex Fridman (26:15.700)
In where?
Kelsi Sheren (26:16.700)
Ontario.
Lex Fridman (26:17.700)
Ontario, Canada.
Lex Fridman (26:18.700)
What did you think of 9 11 at that age from Canada that have an impact on you in terms
Lex Fridman (26:26.720)
of changing the level of evil you thought is there in the world today?
Kelsi Sheren (26:35.680)
Not initially.
Lex Fridman (26:36.680)
I remember it really vividly.
Kelsi Sheren (26:38.400)
I have a decent memory for certain things.
Lex Fridman (26:41.480)
It seems like stuff like that I stick with really well.
Kelsi Sheren (26:44.800)
I remember watching it.
Kelsi Sheren (26:45.800)
I was sitting on the couch and my mom called my dad because my parents are truck drivers.
Kelsi Sheren (26:51.440)
My dad was on the road, if I'm not mistaken, and he would go in and out of cities all the
Lex Fridman (26:56.160)
time.
Kelsi Sheren (26:57.160)
I think he was on the East Coast.
Lex Fridman (26:58.160)
My mom was a little panicky.
Kelsi Sheren (27:00.040)
She tried to get a hold of him.
Kelsi Sheren (27:01.480)
I think at the time it was beepers and yeah, so he would get a beep, he would go to a payphone
Lex Fridman (27:07.600)
and call us.
Lex Fridman (27:08.600)
He was fine.
Kelsi Sheren (27:10.120)
I remember my mom being really upset and I couldn't quite grasp why she was so upset.
Lex Fridman (27:16.400)
I knew something really bad had happened.
Kelsi Sheren (27:18.640)
It's when I then saw the second plane go into the tower and I remember her just like the
Kelsi Sheren (27:24.360)
stereotypical like hand over her mouth and she just felt sick and she just was so confused
Lex Fridman (27:29.480)
and I knew it was bad, but I didn't fully grasp it.
Lex Fridman (27:33.640)
We went to school that day and they had talked about it briefly.
Kelsi Sheren (27:36.720)
You could hear the teachers kind of reminiscing about it.
Kelsi Sheren (27:39.380)
There was a point that week that all of a sudden all of the children who were from a
Kelsi Sheren (27:47.560)
Middle Eastern family were not at school.
Kelsi Sheren (27:50.720)
I just remember them saying like a lot of people aren't coming to school, but it was
Kelsi Sheren (27:55.440)
in particular.
Lex Fridman (27:56.440)
I think parents were afraid once it got out that it was of a certain group.
Kelsi Sheren (28:02.360)
They were afraid for their own kids and fair enough, I mean, you never know.
Lex Fridman (28:06.400)
You don't know and I knew it impacted me enough that I did write.
Kelsi Sheren (28:11.280)
I remember the school was doing a memorial for it and I remember they asked, I wrote
Lex Fridman (28:16.280)
a poem and a reporter was there and I read it on air.
Kelsi Sheren (28:21.400)
I remember it was a very short one, but I remember I wanted to do something, but I didn't
Lex Fridman (28:28.400)
know why or for what reason.
Kelsi Sheren (28:30.720)
I knew I wanted to do something to honor it, but I couldn't grasp why.
Lex Fridman (28:34.720)
You eventually went to Afghanistan.
Lex Fridman (28:38.280)
Did that begin to plant the seed of thinking about conflict in the world?
Lex Fridman (28:43.920)
It's a good question.
Kelsi Sheren (28:45.200)
I never thought about it that in depth.
Lex Fridman (28:47.120)
I mean, I've done 12 years of therapy.
Kelsi Sheren (28:48.680)
You think that would have come up, Dr. Passi, but apparently not.
Lex Fridman (28:52.360)
We'll work on it though.
Lex Fridman (28:53.360)
I mean, when did the idea of war start entering your mind?
Lex Fridman (28:58.920)
Late high school, I think it was for me.
Kelsi Sheren (29:02.440)
I finished high school at 17.
Kelsi Sheren (29:04.380)
I moved away and went to college, I went to Algonquin College because I wasn't smart enough
Kelsi Sheren (29:08.840)
to get into Ottawa U. I was like, well, Algonquin, cheers.
Kelsi Sheren (29:13.800)
I just wanted to play sports and frankly, I wanted away from my small town that I was
Kelsi Sheren (29:17.840)
living in.
Kelsi Sheren (29:18.840)
I went through a bad high school breakup as a kid and you know that where you think that's
Kelsi Sheren (29:22.320)
like the love of your life and you just can't bear to be anywhere near anybody.
Lex Fridman (29:27.320)
I moved away as fast as I possibly could.
Kelsi Sheren (29:31.520)
I didn't grasp it still at that point.
Lex Fridman (29:36.640)
Love and heartbreak.
Kelsi Sheren (29:38.840)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (29:40.480)
Why did you become a soldier?
Lex Fridman (29:42.640)
Why did you want to become a soldier?
Kelsi Sheren (29:45.280)
My parents told me from an early age, they always figured I would either be a cop.
Kelsi Sheren (29:48.760)
I would do, they didn't think military, but they thought it would be like a type A personality,
Lex Fridman (29:54.160)
possibly carry a gun situation and I'd never hunted before.
Kelsi Sheren (29:59.400)
We never had guns in our house.
Lex Fridman (2:00:00.700)
was sitting off on the right hand side and we got all in there.
Lex Fridman (2:00:05.260)
And I know the, I think said there was two flights.
Lex Fridman (2:00:09.060)
I only thought there was one, but apparently there was two flights.
Lex Fridman (2:00:12.700)
So went on one, his body went on one.
Lex Fridman (2:00:15.400)
And then I think, I think he said went on the other and and then they took off.
Lex Fridman (2:00:21.500)
And then when they leave though, they rain hell down on anything they can see on the
Lex Fridman (2:00:25.700)
ground.
Lex Fridman (2:00:26.700)
And that is a beautiful sight because they had mortar rounds coming down and it just,
Lex Fridman (2:00:30.420)
it was getting really, really bad.
Lex Fridman (2:00:33.100)
And then as soon as the black ox took off, all of a sudden it just stopped and went quiet,
Lex Fridman (2:00:41.220)
like deafening quiet.
Lex Fridman (2:00:44.820)
And we were sitting inside the compound and I, one of the medics looked at me and you
Kelsi Sheren (2:00:48.500)
could see, and I still do it now and I, I'm working on not doing it, but I do it when
Kelsi Sheren (2:00:52.460)
I get really overwhelmed.
Kelsi Sheren (2:00:55.020)
Because I didn't have any gloves on, I had blood all over my hands and just like body
Lex Fridman (2:01:00.020)
and stuff.
Lex Fridman (2:01:01.020)
So he came over and he just gave me like sanitizer and I started rubbing.
Lex Fridman (2:01:05.360)
And so I rub, I do this when I'm stressed, I'll rub my hands.
Lex Fridman (2:01:11.180)
And I still can't, I still can't do, I still can't eat food with skin on it.
Lex Fridman (2:01:17.940)
And I can't like, like salmon and stuff, like I can't, anything with skin, I can't touch
Lex Fridman (2:01:22.420)
it.
Lex Fridman (2:01:23.420)
And I'm making meat at home, like for my husband and my son, like I have like meat gloves and
Lex Fridman (2:01:28.540)
then I have like a fork and a knife and I'm like cutting it.
Kelsi Sheren (2:01:31.420)
Like I never touch it, I can't touch it.
Lex Fridman (2:01:34.700)
So there's something almost like the texture of the biology of a human flesh that just,
Kelsi Sheren (2:01:43.540)
that's at the level of, that's the level of your trauma.
Lex Fridman (2:01:47.220)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:01:48.220)
And it's been, I mean, it's 2021, this was in 09.
Lex Fridman (2:01:51.420)
And I've worked on this, like, and I mean, I've been in like treatment religiously,
Kelsi Sheren (2:01:57.180)
just to be able to keep me alive for this decade.
Lex Fridman (2:02:00.440)
And so it's not like, it's like, oh, I've never, you never even tried to get better.
Kelsi Sheren (2:02:04.060)
It's like, I never really used to leave my house.
Lex Fridman (2:02:06.420)
I used to call people that looked like that horrific names in public.
Kelsi Sheren (2:02:10.260)
I used to want to kill people on a regular basis.
Lex Fridman (2:02:13.640)
I'm a fairly happy individual now.
Lex Fridman (2:02:16.380)
What about, so you're, you're talking about sort of skin and parts and, but there's also
Lex Fridman (2:02:24.540)
just the fact that we're mortal and there's somebody close to you who dies.
Lex Fridman (2:02:31.180)
So you watch, walk up and then never come back out again?
Lex Fridman (2:02:34.380)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (2:02:35.380)
It's like you're facing mortality in a very real way.
Lex Fridman (2:02:38.780)
And if, in a, in a way that's not the same as somebody dying from cancer in a hospital,
Lex Fridman (2:02:44.820)
so it has echoes of that because that's also absurd.
Lex Fridman (2:02:48.860)
And like, it doesn't feel like there's justice to it in any kind of way, but it's so sudden.
Lex Fridman (2:02:55.220)
Like, have you been able to make sense of that, of your feelings about it?
Kelsi Sheren (2:03:03.140)
Like how do you feel about it or, or is everything just shrouded in this like trauma that you're
Lex Fridman (2:03:11.380)
not able to just feel for the loss of a human being, like mourn the loss of a human being?
Kelsi Sheren (2:03:19.740)
I think I had, when he, when I realized he wasn't there, when I realized that he, um,
Kelsi Sheren (2:03:28.540)
that was the, I, that was what was left of him, I found out afterwards there was other
Lex Fridman (2:03:33.880)
parts that were outside and went back.
Kelsi Sheren (2:03:37.740)
I think, I think he said went back and they got, they ended up getting the rest of him.
Lex Fridman (2:03:43.180)
So that made me happy because I just found this out this week.
Kelsi Sheren (2:03:47.020)
Uh, so that, that means, so that means you have a feeling like you still feel like parts
Lex Fridman (2:03:54.160)
of them were left behind.
Kelsi Sheren (2:03:56.420)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (2:03:57.860)
On the ramp ceremony, when I lost my mind, literally I, I lost my mind and I was screaming
Kelsi Sheren (2:04:07.140)
that he wasn't all in there.
Lex Fridman (2:04:10.220)
I'm happy now knowing that he was, but I held onto that for 10 years.
Kelsi Sheren (2:04:18.020)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (2:04:19.020)
This, um, yeah, the sandbags, like, like it's the bulk of the weight is, is not from human
Kelsi Sheren (2:04:28.140)
flesh.
Lex Fridman (2:04:29.140)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (2:04:30.140)
He was a young kid too.
Lex Fridman (2:04:32.140)
It was, I think it was his first deployment as well.
Kelsi Sheren (2:04:35.420)
Like he was, he was a young kid and he was just, just going to clear the road for the
Lex Fridman (2:04:42.980)
rest of us.
Kelsi Sheren (2:04:43.980)
Right.
Kelsi Sheren (2:04:44.980)
Like not like, you know, you're in war and you know that you're outside the wire and
Kelsi Sheren (2:04:48.580)
you know, things could happen.
Kelsi Sheren (2:04:50.820)
You understand that to the extent you can understand that when it's happening, it's
Kelsi Sheren (2:04:57.540)
something very different.
Kelsi Sheren (2:04:59.660)
Also maybe you can correct me, but, um, there's something much more like brutal about an IED.
Kelsi Sheren (2:05:07.180)
It's proficuous.
Kelsi Sheren (2:05:09.020)
Versus like a bullet, cause a bullet, you still watching somebody close to you die from
Kelsi Sheren (2:05:15.860)
a bullet, you still get to the basic humanity.
Kelsi Sheren (2:05:20.940)
Like so IED basically converted a human being into sort of parts by biological parts.
Kelsi Sheren (2:05:26.980)
A cheeseburger.
Lex Fridman (2:05:28.660)
Versus, yeah, I mean, I don't, that's, that's tough.
Kelsi Sheren (2:05:35.540)
That's tough because that's like, um, because it's hard for you to remember them as a human.
Lex Fridman (2:05:43.580)
You remember them as parts.
Kelsi Sheren (2:05:45.940)
For me, that's how I remember him.
Lex Fridman (2:05:48.400)
I would like to, I have a picture that I post every year about him.
Kelsi Sheren (2:05:52.740)
I see that, but I don't put two and two together.
Lex Fridman (2:06:00.660)
Does that make sense?
Kelsi Sheren (2:06:01.660)
Yeah, no, it does.
Lex Fridman (2:06:03.220)
So I, even I listening to your story and, you know, um, thank you for sharing it first
Kelsi Sheren (2:06:08.120)
of all, but, um, it's not my, it's, well, I'm just the one to tell it.
Lex Fridman (2:06:12.940)
I was just involved one, one set of eyes on this particular human being.
Lex Fridman (2:06:19.420)
But even I get angry.
Lex Fridman (2:06:20.980)
I can't tell if it's exhaustion or anger.
Kelsi Sheren (2:06:24.060)
I'm sorry.
Lex Fridman (2:06:25.060)
I look always exhausted.
Kelsi Sheren (2:06:26.060)
Oh, that's okay.
Lex Fridman (2:06:27.060)
You're, you're into robotics.
Lex Fridman (2:06:28.060)
Isn't that like your guys's thing?
Kelsi Sheren (2:06:29.060)
You guys are just always working on, I think because I feel so much for the world.
Kelsi Sheren (2:06:35.620)
I just don't do, we were talking about resting bitch face earlier.
Kelsi Sheren (2:06:39.500)
I just don't feel the need to maintain, um, all the effort of the musculature for presenting
Kelsi Sheren (2:06:45.260)
myself to you visually.
Lex Fridman (2:06:46.820)
It's exhausting.
Kelsi Sheren (2:06:47.820)
It's exhausting.
Lex Fridman (2:06:48.820)
So I just focus on the feeling.
Kelsi Sheren (2:06:49.820)
No way.
Lex Fridman (2:06:50.820)
Face show, whatever the hell it shows.
Kelsi Sheren (2:06:52.500)
Fair enough.
Lex Fridman (2:06:53.500)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (2:06:54.500)
Was there anger?
Lex Fridman (2:06:56.300)
Was there hate?
Kelsi Sheren (2:06:57.300)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:06:58.300)
Can you just talk to your feelings of what you remember?
Kelsi Sheren (2:07:02.980)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:07:03.980)
So after that operation with the British, I went back to the Canadians and I didn't
Kelsi Sheren (2:07:11.260)
go back as even remotely close to who I was when I left.
Lex Fridman (2:07:16.500)
And that was really troublesome for a lot of people around me because the level of anger
Lex Fridman (2:07:22.140)
and hate that came out of me was palpable when I just walked by, um, I got shockingly
Kelsi Sheren (2:07:29.420)
quiet and you understand how you're learning how to be terrified if you are quiet.
Lex Fridman (2:07:36.900)
And I don't know if hate and anger do that justice.
Kelsi Sheren (2:07:41.700)
I don't know another word, but I don't think those two words do it justice to the extent
Kelsi Sheren (2:07:47.780)
that I was feeling like I got to a point when I got attacked by a woman, um, with some scissors,
Kelsi Sheren (2:07:54.740)
like the idea crossed my mind, like I could boot stomp her to death and not feel anything
Kelsi Sheren (2:07:59.060)
about it in front of her, all of her family and her kids.
Lex Fridman (2:08:01.820)
Was it more like just not recognizing the basic humanity or was it legit hatred?
Kelsi Sheren (2:08:06.860)
No, it was legit hatred, but also I no longer saw those people as humans.
Lex Fridman (2:08:13.380)
It took one event.
Lex Fridman (2:08:14.700)
And when that happened, the rest of the operation that was echoed in my, in the way I was to
Lex Fridman (2:08:20.980)
those people.
Lex Fridman (2:08:21.980)
But to what level can you see those people as human?
Lex Fridman (2:08:26.980)
So this is where, well, like this is where Jaco shut down, um, I still think I'm right.
Kelsi Sheren (2:08:36.540)
Um, there's a dire straight song called, uh, brothers in arms and, um, actually anyway,
Lex Fridman (2:08:45.100)
we're fools to make war on our brothers in arms.
Lex Fridman (2:08:48.620)
And I brought that up to Jaco because it's humans on both sides, but he said, not in
Lex Fridman (2:08:58.460)
Iraq like to him, he's like, no, that's the enemy.
Kelsi Sheren (2:09:04.620)
These are people who use the civilians.
Lex Fridman (2:09:07.740)
They rape, they torture, they they'll do anything.
Lex Fridman (2:09:12.300)
And they put evil onto the world.
Lex Fridman (2:09:14.020)
And then it's like, so they're, they're stood on at that moment.
Kelsi Sheren (2:09:18.220)
Like the, these two were humans and it's politicians waging war and it's, it's kids on both sides.
Lex Fridman (2:09:26.660)
But then Jaco was like, no, he's not wrong.
Lex Fridman (2:09:31.300)
So which can you carry both things with you as a soldier?
Lex Fridman (2:09:36.260)
I think when I was a soldier, I could only carry one thing with me.
Kelsi Sheren (2:09:40.380)
I think my perspective has changed drastically, but not because I've lost the reality that
Lex Fridman (2:09:48.060)
they are the enemy, but I've, I've gained my humanity back again.
Lex Fridman (2:09:54.060)
And that's what I lost when I was there.
Lex Fridman (2:09:55.980)
I lost all humanity.
Kelsi Sheren (2:09:57.180)
I lost all hope for humanity.
Kelsi Sheren (2:09:59.580)
He's not wrong when he says the Taliban or like when he was in Iraq, but for me, the
Kelsi Sheren (2:10:07.180)
Taliban are evil.
Lex Fridman (2:10:08.460)
I still hold a spot of hatred for them that could set this building on fire.
Kelsi Sheren (2:10:15.020)
You don't, I don't know that anybody can fully understand that when you watch what they do
Lex Fridman (2:10:20.880)
to women and do kids and they do it in the name of God, they are the enemy.
Kelsi Sheren (2:10:28.100)
They are less than, they don't exist.
Lex Fridman (2:10:32.240)
They're barely worth the bullets we put into them.
Lex Fridman (2:10:36.320)
But then because they use civilians, so like then everybody becomes the enemy.
Lex Fridman (2:10:45.180)
And how are you supposed to make sense of that?
Kelsi Sheren (2:10:47.100)
Like what you get, but here, Lex, you can't make sense of it.
Kelsi Sheren (2:10:50.140)
This is why they've done a really good job of blending into the civilian population.
Kelsi Sheren (2:10:54.340)
They've done it intentionally.
Lex Fridman (2:10:55.420)
They've done it on purpose.
Lex Fridman (2:10:57.740)
So they're brilliant.
Lex Fridman (2:10:59.420)
This is why you guys couldn't beat them.
Kelsi Sheren (2:11:01.060)
This is why we couldn't fucking beat them.
Lex Fridman (2:11:03.420)
They use their people so effectively.
Kelsi Sheren (2:11:07.380)
They have no shame in that.
Lex Fridman (2:11:08.820)
They have no issue with that.
Kelsi Sheren (2:11:10.240)
They take no qualms with wiping a kid off the face of the earth.
Kelsi Sheren (2:11:14.740)
If it means they can get close enough to a soldier to throw a fucking bomb into their
Kelsi Sheren (2:11:18.700)
tank.
Lex Fridman (2:11:20.260)
This is why they're affected.
Lex Fridman (2:11:22.100)
How do you beat them then?
Kelsi Sheren (2:11:23.800)
There's this, there's no winning that you just basically do policeman type work or you
Lex Fridman (2:11:30.020)
do your best.
Lex Fridman (2:11:31.020)
I mean, that's one way.
Lex Fridman (2:11:33.260)
So the other is you come from an artillery background.
Lex Fridman (2:11:38.620)
A fucking hellfire missile hit the whole place off the face of the earth.
Kelsi Sheren (2:11:42.500)
You can't beat radicalism like that right now.
Lex Fridman (2:11:45.220)
The problem is, is we've, we've let it go unchecked.
Kelsi Sheren (2:11:48.820)
We had it kind of in check for 20 years.
Lex Fridman (2:11:52.300)
We just shot ourselves in the foot, the chest and the face.
Lex Fridman (2:11:56.820)
So the problem with force is it creates longterm hate because young kids and propaganda and
Lex Fridman (2:12:07.340)
like propaganda works.
Lex Fridman (2:12:09.160)
So you, you see your father, your brother die because of a bomb.
Kelsi Sheren (2:12:14.380)
It's very easy to convince that person that they died because of evil Americans and tell
Kelsi Sheren (2:12:19.420)
whatever story you want about America or Canada, Russia.
Lex Fridman (2:12:22.220)
That's the biggest problem.
Lex Fridman (2:12:23.380)
So it seems like there gotta be better solutions because I mean, I talk about love, but it's,
Kelsi Sheren (2:12:30.040)
it's honestly basically figuring out sneaky ways of empowering women, of educating people
Kelsi Sheren (2:12:36.940)
of like, and like, and not in a cheesy way, but like in the same level of like mass warfare,
Lex Fridman (2:12:48.620)
but with love.
Kelsi Sheren (2:12:49.620)
You're talking about DARPA budgets, DOD budgets, but like do that where you educate and empower
Lex Fridman (2:12:56.420)
women by force.
Lex Fridman (2:12:58.900)
And it, you know, they want to learn, right?
Lex Fridman (2:13:01.140)
I mean, you're not like forcing anybody, you're setting them free.
Kelsi Sheren (2:13:05.100)
That's exactly it.
Lex Fridman (2:13:06.100)
Like combat flip flops does this.
Kelsi Sheren (2:13:07.460)
They do this.
Lex Fridman (2:13:08.460)
They give literacy.
Kelsi Sheren (2:13:10.060)
They teach girls to read nothing else to read because as soon as you can read, you know
Lex Fridman (2:13:15.980)
what that happens.
Kelsi Sheren (2:13:16.980)
You know what happens then.
Lex Fridman (2:13:18.220)
What's combat flip flops?
Kelsi Sheren (2:13:19.580)
That's the scarf right there.
Lex Fridman (2:13:20.660)
That's made in Afghanistan.
Lex Fridman (2:13:23.420)
So when you buy something from them, the proceeds go to literacy in Afghanistan for girls.
Lex Fridman (2:13:28.340)
They've given literacy to 800 girls over there.
Kelsi Sheren (2:13:30.660)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:13:31.660)
They're really cool.
Kelsi Sheren (2:13:32.660)
Uh, Griff owns the one, he was an army ranger and his buddy, but Lee, I think is his name.
Kelsi Sheren (2:13:37.060)
They were on Shark Tank a long time ago, but they, um, they do shoes and I think they're
Kelsi Sheren (2:13:41.420)
called Schmongs.
Lex Fridman (2:13:42.420)
I don't know how to say it properly.
Kelsi Sheren (2:13:44.740)
Built in Afghanistan.
Lex Fridman (2:13:45.740)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (2:13:46.740)
And then the proceeds go back there.
Kelsi Sheren (2:13:48.380)
They do great work for literacy and you know, as well as anyone, if you can teach someone
Kelsi Sheren (2:13:54.000)
to read good color, dark, like your soul lacks matches on the inside, just on the inside.
Lex Fridman (2:14:01.980)
All right.
Kelsi Sheren (2:14:02.980)
The outside is just the, it's just the suit.
Kelsi Sheren (2:14:06.460)
I feel like you think that's your suit of armor, but I feel like it's, it's there.
Lex Fridman (2:14:10.860)
See what were you saying?
Lex Fridman (2:14:11.860)
Sorry, what were you saying?
Kelsi Sheren (2:14:12.860)
I was saying go on.
Lex Fridman (2:14:13.860)
I will allow this.
Kelsi Sheren (2:14:14.860)
All right, I think there is room if you teach education.
Lex Fridman (2:14:20.900)
The problem is we've taken a massive step backwards.
Kelsi Sheren (2:14:24.780)
I know that the Taliban have just instituted, uh, this week honor killings will be back.
Lex Fridman (2:14:30.820)
Stonings are back and, um, uh, dismemberment as well.
Kelsi Sheren (2:14:35.180)
Holly McKay is the reporter that's been reporting that from the ground.
Lex Fridman (2:14:37.940)
She's still there.
Kelsi Sheren (2:14:39.300)
The way to pull people, in my opinion, out of something like that is through education.
Kelsi Sheren (2:14:45.180)
Well we just took all of that away, which is pretty horrific in my opinion because you've
Kelsi Sheren (2:14:51.700)
taught over 20 years.
Lex Fridman (2:14:54.380)
You're perfectly right, Lex.
Kelsi Sheren (2:14:55.520)
When you say that hate and violence won't work, it won't because you see dad get killed
Lex Fridman (2:15:01.540)
on the battlefield.
Kelsi Sheren (2:15:02.540)
Well that 14 year old little boy is going to pick up an AK 47 and go avenge dad's death.
Lex Fridman (2:15:06.300)
That's just the way it's going to be.
Kelsi Sheren (2:15:07.300)
Well, we think about it, you were there for 20 years.
Lex Fridman (2:15:10.340)
There's a couple of generations in there.
Kelsi Sheren (2:15:11.820)
There's another generation that's either grown up in this or has seen enough of this.
Lex Fridman (2:15:16.400)
So there are always going to be a subset that think that we're the enemy and fair.
Kelsi Sheren (2:15:22.020)
We haven't done always the greatest things, but the one thing that we have done that I
Kelsi Sheren (2:15:25.800)
did participate in was giving literacy, giving girls an opportunity, letting them know that
Kelsi Sheren (2:15:31.620)
you aren't second class citizens.
Lex Fridman (2:15:33.840)
You can do things too.
Lex Fridman (2:15:35.740)
And that's why we have to look at war differently.
Lex Fridman (2:15:40.660)
There's times for violence.
Kelsi Sheren (2:15:42.060)
Oh, there is time for violence and there is time for missiles and there is time for detainees
Lex Fridman (2:15:50.780)
and there's times for bagging tags and double tops of the fucking face.
Kelsi Sheren (2:15:54.180)
There's times for all of that, but there needs to be more time to educate.
Kelsi Sheren (2:15:59.500)
The problem is you can't educate if you're in a country where their culture doesn't believe
Kelsi Sheren (2:16:04.420)
in that.
Kelsi Sheren (2:16:05.420)
There's so many different things that you, it's an almost an impossible situation.
Kelsi Sheren (2:16:12.700)
When you look at the 20 years in Afghanistan and we just pulled out, there's a sudden pull
Lex Fridman (2:16:17.300)
out of troops.
Lex Fridman (2:16:18.300)
What do you think about those 20 years?
Lex Fridman (2:16:21.740)
Let me ask hard question, which is, was it worth it going into Afghanistan?
Lex Fridman (2:16:31.140)
And you're sort of, you're one person.
Lex Fridman (2:16:33.460)
My limited capacity.
Kelsi Sheren (2:16:35.100)
You have experienced specific set of extremely difficult things.
Lex Fridman (2:16:41.500)
You've met a lot of humans.
Kelsi Sheren (2:16:44.020)
You understand certain aspects of the way this war is carried out.
Lex Fridman (2:16:47.460)
But if you zoomed out at the big story, like you're, you like history too.
Kelsi Sheren (2:16:52.460)
When you think of the history, a hundred years from now, we look at the invasion of Afghanistan.
Kelsi Sheren (2:16:59.380)
I don't even think you need to go far that back to know that it was, we went in on false
Kelsi Sheren (2:17:04.780)
pretenses.
Lex Fridman (2:17:06.300)
We did.
Kelsi Sheren (2:17:07.300)
That's not, that's not a good start.
Lex Fridman (2:17:10.460)
What's that saying?
Kelsi Sheren (2:17:11.660)
Future behavior is a good, was it past behavior is a good indicator of future behavior.
Lex Fridman (2:17:18.340)
So I struggle with that because when I first found out that the pullout was going to happen,
Kelsi Sheren (2:17:24.780)
I got really angry because my government skated the whole situation because he's having a
Lex Fridman (2:17:33.700)
snap.
Kelsi Sheren (2:17:34.700)
He's having a snap election.
Lex Fridman (2:17:35.700)
It's happening on the 20th.
Lex Fridman (2:17:38.220)
So that was beautifully planned by my government to hold no accountability, zero accountability.
Lex Fridman (2:17:46.860)
And the media won't talk about it.
Kelsi Sheren (2:17:49.100)
They reached out to me to do an interview about Afghanistan.
Lex Fridman (2:17:51.260)
And then I told them what was going on after I talked to my people that were on the ground
Lex Fridman (2:17:54.780)
and then they canceled the interview.
Kelsi Sheren (2:17:56.820)
When you say my government, is America any better at this, like it feels like there's
Kelsi Sheren (2:18:01.500)
no accountability.
Lex Fridman (2:18:02.500)
No, no.
Kelsi Sheren (2:18:03.500)
The government, no, no, the American government is a dumpster fire.
Kelsi Sheren (2:18:08.860)
I'm not saying, I'm not saying that, but what I am saying is at least they sent people to
Kelsi Sheren (2:18:16.420)
pull people or pull some people.
Lex Fridman (2:18:20.300)
We sent no one to pull anyone.
Lex Fridman (2:18:24.400)
And I know for a fact, because I helped move a family, I was fortunate enough to be given
Kelsi Sheren (2:18:28.420)
an opportunity to help move a high value nine person family out of that country that worked
Kelsi Sheren (2:18:33.620)
in the government, that worked in prosecuting the Taliban, that were on the top of the list.
Kelsi Sheren (2:18:38.940)
I learned really quickly the ins and outs of things and I'm really disgusted by it.
Kelsi Sheren (2:18:42.980)
I learned that Canada had the one email address that all Canadian Afghani visa holders were
Lex Fridman (2:18:48.820)
supposed to email, Ottawa put two people on that email address.
Kelsi Sheren (2:18:54.020)
That's confirmed.
Kelsi Sheren (2:18:56.020)
Canada put no more than 70 people on the ground for that pullout and they were not allowed
Kelsi Sheren (2:18:59.860)
to leave the airport and they left well before the pullout date.
Lex Fridman (2:19:02.380)
They left on the Thursday before the Tuesday that was the 31st.
Kelsi Sheren (2:19:07.340)
There were high value Canadian visa holders that are still in that country that are on
Lex Fridman (2:19:11.300)
the top of the kill list.
Kelsi Sheren (2:19:12.820)
Canada's not doing anything about it.
Kelsi Sheren (2:19:17.020)
I'm disgusted in the way my government has acted because number one, there's an active
Kelsi Sheren (2:19:21.740)
lawsuit with veterans against the Supreme Court of Canada right now.
Kelsi Sheren (2:19:27.520)
We are leaving our vets and our Canadians stranded over there and we are leaving the
Kelsi Sheren (2:19:33.420)
vets that have been maimed by this war in Canada.
Lex Fridman (2:19:38.020)
They're turned down for everything.
Kelsi Sheren (2:19:39.020)
I've been turned down for hearing loss.
Lex Fridman (2:19:40.320)
They're saying it's not military related.
Kelsi Sheren (2:19:42.820)
They have PIs follow me.
Lex Fridman (2:19:45.200)
This is normal behavior.
Kelsi Sheren (2:19:47.500)
There's a veteran named Brock who was told by Trudeau in a meeting that after he lost
Kelsi Sheren (2:19:52.860)
his leg, he was just trying to get a new prosthetic because it was just killing him.
Kelsi Sheren (2:19:57.180)
Trudeau stood up in a meeting and said, you're just asking for too much.
Kelsi Sheren (2:20:00.620)
Less than six months later, he gave $10.4 million to an Afghan terrorist that was in
Kelsi Sheren (2:20:05.420)
the Canadian prison system.
Lex Fridman (2:20:07.540)
He won and got 10.4 of our million taxpayer dollars.
Kelsi Sheren (2:20:11.980)
I don't know that American government's any better, but what I do know is that the absolute
Kelsi Sheren (2:20:16.980)
fucking machines of human beings that stepped outside of the chain of command to pull my
Kelsi Sheren (2:20:21.580)
family out for me, I know they were there.
Kelsi Sheren (2:20:25.260)
The British that stayed on the ground that I contacted to literally confirm my biometric
Kelsi Sheren (2:20:30.620)
data and passports to get that family moved, they weren't there.
Lex Fridman (2:20:33.740)
That family would still be there.
Kelsi Sheren (2:20:35.700)
That three year old that got the shit kicked out of him by the Taliban that I was trying
Lex Fridman (2:20:38.540)
to exfil, Canada left him.
Lex Fridman (2:20:44.120)
What is it about politicians and governments not willing to do their job?
Kelsi Sheren (2:20:52.100)
Well, not willing to do a big part of the job, which is you send people to war, these
Lex Fridman (2:21:03.260)
are heroes, and then you should spend most of the time repaying the debts to those, right?
Lex Fridman (2:21:12.900)
What is it about, why can't we?
Kelsi Sheren (2:21:15.740)
Because we're disposable numbers, and we hire them out of high school when they're stupid
Kelsi Sheren (2:21:20.140)
enough to not understand what they're going to get themselves into, and then we blame
Kelsi Sheren (2:21:25.300)
it on themselves for making that decision by volunteering.
Lex Fridman (2:21:27.980)
Yeah, but I mean, this still doesn't make sense to me.
Kelsi Sheren (2:21:32.180)
No, it's a cop out.
Kelsi Sheren (2:21:33.180)
I mean, Trudeau, I feel like he is a good human being that wants to do good for, I mean,
Kelsi Sheren (2:21:39.500)
I tend to, I want to believe that leaders want to do good by the heroes of this world,
Lex Fridman (2:21:45.820)
and it doesn't, like, I don't understand the system of delusion you have to live in to
Kelsi Sheren (2:21:53.540)
not understand who the heroes are.
Lex Fridman (2:21:55.300)
Like, I refuse to believe Trudeau is somehow a bad person.
Lex Fridman (2:21:58.020)
You haven't met him though, have you?
Lex Fridman (2:21:59.460)
I don't, actually.
Kelsi Sheren (2:22:00.460)
I'm speaking about Trudeau without knowing, but I mean, in general, think that way about
Lex Fridman (2:22:06.300)
leaders.
Kelsi Sheren (2:22:07.300)
Like, they surround themselves by people who delude them, who like, they're yes people,
Kelsi Sheren (2:22:12.100)
yes people that lead them into a kind of reality that becomes detached from actual reality.
Lex Fridman (2:22:18.820)
And so they misunderstand the priorities of this world.
Kelsi Sheren (2:22:21.940)
They think maybe some kind of special interest, they focus on that versus like the humans.
Kelsi Sheren (2:22:28.900)
If you look back, was there a way we could have done something better in Afghanistan,
Lex Fridman (2:22:34.220)
assuming we do the invasion?
Kelsi Sheren (2:22:36.560)
Also, is it ultimately about taking care of the veterans, like, investing more money in
Kelsi Sheren (2:22:44.380)
the education of women and liberating people who are suffering injustice in those parts
Lex Fridman (2:22:53.840)
of the world?
Lex Fridman (2:22:54.840)
Like, what's a better way to do it?
Lex Fridman (2:22:56.060)
And one other aspect is, on the US side, paid over $6 trillion for the wars in the Middle
Lex Fridman (2:23:02.980)
East since 9 11, so the financial side as well.
Lex Fridman (2:23:06.260)
Is there something you can comment on things we could have done better?
Kelsi Sheren (2:23:11.900)
That's a loaded question because you're talking to someone who had no hand in what happened
Kelsi Sheren (2:23:16.620)
other than do this and do that.
Lex Fridman (2:23:18.500)
So I can go from my perspective, which is there was probably plenty of things that we
Kelsi Sheren (2:23:22.700)
could have been doing better.
Lex Fridman (2:23:24.900)
I think there was a lack of leadership from the get go.
Kelsi Sheren (2:23:27.620)
I think the preparation that the Canadian military gave me was nowhere sufficient for
Lex Fridman (2:23:34.580)
a deployment of that level.
Kelsi Sheren (2:23:37.340)
Mind you, things happen.
Lex Fridman (2:23:38.900)
They didn't realize things would happen, but yet they happen.
Kelsi Sheren (2:23:43.820)
With little to absolutely no cultural idea was that I was walking into.
Kelsi Sheren (2:23:50.460)
Like when the one male in the family grabbed the back of my vest because my hair was tucked
Lex Fridman (2:23:55.140)
and he thought it was a man going into a room with a bunch of women, I couldn't understand
Lex Fridman (2:23:57.780)
why he was attacking me.
Kelsi Sheren (2:24:00.300)
There was no real breakdown of this is what you're going into, this is the culture, this
Kelsi Sheren (2:24:05.540)
is why they do what they do, this is how they do it, this is how you should handle a situation
Kelsi Sheren (2:24:10.580)
like that.
Lex Fridman (2:24:11.580)
There was none of that.
Kelsi Sheren (2:24:13.500)
Something I speak about frequently and I think it's important to acknowledge is when you're
Kelsi Sheren (2:24:17.260)
doing any of that training, we are giving none of our soldiers proper mental health
Kelsi Sheren (2:24:21.020)
training, tools in that fucking toolbox or ways or things to look for on their buddy
Kelsi Sheren (2:24:28.500)
because we've created a system and a problem where if you say that you're ill or that you're
Kelsi Sheren (2:24:34.060)
struggling with PTSD, you're done.
Kelsi Sheren (2:24:36.980)
No one's going to say that, they're going to keep struggling with it and that's when
Kelsi Sheren (2:24:40.060)
you get loose cannons, when you get problems happen, so you get fractures start to happen
Lex Fridman (2:24:45.280)
in leadership and that's being seen and has been seen now for a while.
Kelsi Sheren (2:24:51.100)
In terms of what we could have done, say for a better way to go into the country, a better
Kelsi Sheren (2:24:59.980)
way to help the country, I can't speak to that as much as I wish I could because I don't
Kelsi Sheren (2:25:07.620)
know that I would have all the answers.
Lex Fridman (2:25:09.260)
What about withdrawal?
Kelsi Sheren (2:25:11.700)
Oh my God.
Lex Fridman (2:25:14.220)
That's a cold.
Lex Fridman (2:25:15.220)
Do you think more gradual, you think it's better to maintain presence there for indefinitely?
Kelsi Sheren (2:25:24.260)
I don't know about that, but I do know we have bases, I say weeks, I serve with them,
Kelsi Sheren (2:25:30.980)
Americans have bases in Japan, Americans have bases in Korea, Americans have bases in Germany.
Lex Fridman (2:25:36.360)
There's reasons there's bases everywhere.
Kelsi Sheren (2:25:38.420)
There's a smart, there's an intellectual way to look at this.
Kelsi Sheren (2:25:42.400)
You want to be able to have eyes and ears, can't have eyes and ears when you do things
Kelsi Sheren (2:25:47.480)
like you just did.
Kelsi Sheren (2:25:49.160)
The way that we pulled out of that country, that's right, the way that, I hate saying
Kelsi Sheren (2:25:53.100)
American British because it puts like a blame on them.
Lex Fridman (2:25:54.940)
I say we because I'm a soldier, I'm a NATO soldier.
Kelsi Sheren (2:25:58.940)
The way we pulled out of that country, my five year old could have done it better.
Lex Fridman (2:26:03.880)
He could have said, mommy, why are we not keeping that Bagram base?
Lex Fridman (2:26:07.860)
Mommy, why are we not keeping that base just until we get everyone else that we need?
Lex Fridman (2:26:12.580)
Why are we going to a civilian airport that we don't control, that we don't understand?
Lex Fridman (2:26:16.340)
Mommy, why are we doing this when there's only one road to it?
Lex Fridman (2:26:20.740)
My five year old would have that conversation with me.
Kelsi Sheren (2:26:24.660)
It was so poorly done.
Kelsi Sheren (2:26:27.300)
It was so poorly executed and no fault of the soldiers on the ground on their own.
Kelsi Sheren (2:26:31.740)
My God, I can tell you there's operators, I just call them A, I don't say who he is
Lex Fridman (2:26:36.880)
because he's told me not to.
Kelsi Sheren (2:26:38.460)
There's a guy named A and there's another guy named R and there's a few other named
Kelsi Sheren (2:26:42.740)
D and these guys, they gave everything to try to pull my family when no one else would
Kelsi Sheren (2:26:52.100)
pull my family for me.
Kelsi Sheren (2:26:54.620)
They just got me on the phone and said, I don't know who the fuck you're talking to.
Kelsi Sheren (2:26:56.780)
I don't know how many people you're trying to get ahold of here, but you've got everyone
Lex Fridman (2:26:59.440)
looking for your family.
Kelsi Sheren (2:27:00.440)
Six, I've gone to everyone I know.
Lex Fridman (2:27:02.620)
I've done stuff on Instagram.
Kelsi Sheren (2:27:04.100)
I've got a contact.
Lex Fridman (2:27:05.100)
The contact called me.
Kelsi Sheren (2:27:06.100)
I called them.
Kelsi Sheren (2:27:07.660)
I was handling this family and when they call you and say, we can't go back to the gate,
Lex Fridman (2:27:12.860)
my three year old just got beat up by the Taliban and they say, what do we do now?
Lex Fridman (2:27:17.740)
I'm in Vancouver.
Lex Fridman (2:27:20.540)
Why am I being left to deal with this?
Lex Fridman (2:27:23.340)
Why is the civilian and ex military population being left to deal with this?
Lex Fridman (2:27:27.780)
Why was this not thought out?
Lex Fridman (2:27:29.620)
We knew this was coming.
Kelsi Sheren (2:27:31.980)
We knew the timeframe.
Kelsi Sheren (2:27:33.460)
Yeah, I ultimately blame, it almost starts at the top always at the leadership, sorry,
Kelsi Sheren (2:27:38.940)
this is the civilian leadership.
Lex Fridman (2:27:41.940)
I think probably the generals know the right thing to do here.
Kelsi Sheren (2:27:46.460)
Even if they're sometimes overzealous in terms of being, wanting to increase, I think the
Lex Fridman (2:27:51.460)
great generals understand what's needed.
Lex Fridman (2:27:53.620)
And then it takes great leadership on the civilian side to listen to the generals and
Lex Fridman (2:27:57.420)
understand that war is not just about like.
Kelsi Sheren (2:28:00.900)
It's not binary.
Lex Fridman (2:28:02.220)
Yeah, and it's not about the invasion and saying mission accomplished.
Kelsi Sheren (2:28:07.620)
It's not about the PR.
Lex Fridman (2:28:08.820)
It's about the full complexity of geopolitics.
Lex Fridman (2:28:13.100)
Can I ask you this?
Lex Fridman (2:28:14.100)
You can ask me whatever you want.
Kelsi Sheren (2:28:16.380)
I'm looking at a book that you gave me, Do the Fucking Work.
Lex Fridman (2:28:18.660)
It's very motivating.
Kelsi Sheren (2:28:19.660)
Good Fucking Design Advice.
Lex Fridman (2:28:21.900)
That's their company called Good Fucking Design Advice.
Kelsi Sheren (2:28:24.860)
That's great.
Lex Fridman (2:28:25.860)
I know, they're great.
Lex Fridman (2:28:26.860)
What's the website?
Lex Fridman (2:28:27.860)
GFDA.
Kelsi Sheren (2:28:28.860)
Okay, so the F is for friendship.
Lex Fridman (2:28:32.380)
Something like that.
Kelsi Sheren (2:28:33.380)
They are a design company.
Lex Fridman (2:28:35.420)
They've worked with Apple and Nike, and this is their book.
Kelsi Sheren (2:28:37.620)
It's been published by HarperCollins.
Lex Fridman (2:28:39.420)
And it is really just, it's an incredible, they're an incredible company.
Kelsi Sheren (2:28:44.900)
They're artistically, like they're a design company, so you can see that.
Lex Fridman (2:28:49.580)
You can see it's a design company.
Kelsi Sheren (2:28:50.700)
Oh yeah, they signed it for you.
Lex Fridman (2:28:52.500)
And the pages are beautiful, but they have a saying and then a paragraph about each saying.
Kelsi Sheren (2:28:58.780)
Get fucking started, obstacles are fucking opportunities, fail, fail, and fucking fail
Lex Fridman (2:29:04.420)
again.
Kelsi Sheren (2:29:05.420)
Ask for fucking help, show some fucking passion, finish the fucking job.
Lex Fridman (2:29:11.820)
That's right.
Lex Fridman (2:29:12.820)
So we should send that to Biden.
Lex Fridman (2:29:13.820)
So I...
Kelsi Sheren (2:29:15.340)
She said it, I didn't say it.
Lex Fridman (2:29:16.620)
Lex said it.
Kelsi Sheren (2:29:17.620)
I didn't say it.
Lex Fridman (2:29:18.620)
Lex said it.
Kelsi Sheren (2:29:19.620)
It's fine.
Lex Fridman (2:29:20.620)
I'll say it.
Kelsi Sheren (2:29:21.620)
I should also send it to Trudeau as well.
Lex Fridman (2:29:22.620)
So, but I mean, he probably won't know how to read it.
Kelsi Sheren (2:29:23.940)
He just taught drama instead.
Lex Fridman (2:29:25.900)
So I'll send it to the previous four presidents.
Lex Fridman (2:29:29.340)
How about that?
Lex Fridman (2:29:30.340)
That's fine.
Kelsi Sheren (2:29:31.340)
We can also send it to them too.
Lex Fridman (2:29:32.340)
Cause they're all just as much at fault.
Kelsi Sheren (2:29:33.340)
So, and they, most of them have all the same last names, but okay.
Lex Fridman (2:29:38.740)
Let me tell you about them quickly.
Kelsi Sheren (2:29:39.740)
Cause we did a mug with them and I was really excited about it.
Lex Fridman (2:29:42.460)
Not because it was a mug.
Kelsi Sheren (2:29:43.460)
I'm a mug person, but you are, that's your mug obsessive.
Lex Fridman (2:29:47.060)
I'm obsessive about my mugs.
Lex Fridman (2:29:48.460)
What's your favorite mug?
Lex Fridman (2:29:50.260)
Currently it's mine right now.
Kelsi Sheren (2:29:51.260)
The one that I have with them.
Lex Fridman (2:29:52.260)
Okay.
Kelsi Sheren (2:29:53.260)
The GMT mug.
Lex Fridman (2:29:54.260)
What does it say on it?
Lex Fridman (2:29:55.260)
Can I, do you want me to read what it says on it?
Lex Fridman (2:29:57.580)
Yeah, please.
Kelsi Sheren (2:29:58.580)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (2:29:59.580)
Cause I'm really happy about it because we created this with them, with GFDA.
Kelsi Sheren (2:30:04.620)
I found out about them because my husband's office, Atlas Neck Brace, he had his very
Kelsi Sheren (2:30:09.720)
first office, he had one of their prints done and it was their original, like do the fucking
Kelsi Sheren (2:30:14.300)
work.
Lex Fridman (2:30:15.860)
And I was really excited about them once I found out because I'm like, well, fuck is
Kelsi Sheren (2:30:20.860)
my middle name.
Lex Fridman (2:30:22.260)
And I want to make sure that I am going to, whoever I work with, I want to make sure that
Kelsi Sheren (2:30:28.740)
I'm working with people that I believe in, that I believe what they stand for and I just
Lex Fridman (2:30:35.500)
think they're brilliant.
Lex Fridman (2:30:36.500)
So I got on the phone with them and I said, hi, I would like you to sponsor my podcast.
Lex Fridman (2:30:42.020)
And they said, cool.
Lex Fridman (2:30:43.020)
What's your podcast?
Lex Fridman (2:30:44.340)
And I was like, it's called Brass in Unity podcast and I want to work with you guys somewhere.
Lex Fridman (2:30:49.540)
And they're like, okay, so like, what are you thinking?
Lex Fridman (2:30:52.320)
And I said, you know, I'm looking to do, I would love one day to do something with you.
Kelsi Sheren (2:30:56.980)
I don't know what it would be, but I would like it to be something.
Lex Fridman (2:31:00.420)
And they said, you know, we do like, we have this book, but we also have like shirts and
Kelsi Sheren (2:31:03.780)
mugs with our sayings on them and prints.
Lex Fridman (2:31:06.320)
And so I was thinking to myself, I was like, well, if I just did like a mug with them,
Kelsi Sheren (2:31:11.140)
well then I could, you know, that could work for what my company does, which is it's a
Kelsi Sheren (2:31:15.260)
jewelry company and sunglass company, but it could be like an add on kind of deal.
Kelsi Sheren (2:31:20.020)
These guys are really good designers.
Lex Fridman (2:31:21.260)
I can already tell.
Kelsi Sheren (2:31:22.260)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:31:23.260)
I knew you would like this.
Kelsi Sheren (2:31:24.260)
That's why I brought it.
Lex Fridman (2:31:25.260)
So I'm like, certain people would appreciate this.
Lex Fridman (2:31:27.160)
And so my whole thing, my, my like hashtag is work hard, help harder.
Lex Fridman (2:31:33.940)
And that's the whole concept of what I do now.
Lex Fridman (2:31:35.820)
And so we did a mug and it's called fucking help somebody.
Lex Fridman (2:31:38.860)
That's their like first tag.
Lex Fridman (2:31:40.340)
And then the rest is kindness is a wealth that increases as it is given away.
Lex Fridman (2:31:47.420)
What you get in return isn't passed between hands, but felt between hearts.
Kelsi Sheren (2:31:51.140)
It's precisely because you've been at the bottom that you can raise others up.
Lex Fridman (2:31:55.460)
It's because you've, sorry, I'm reading a photo here.
Kelsi Sheren (2:31:58.940)
You've been lost in the dark.
Lex Fridman (2:32:00.200)
You can lead others to the light.
Kelsi Sheren (2:32:02.460)
It's because you fought with yourself that you can bring peace to someone else.
Kelsi Sheren (2:32:07.860)
You now have the strength because you've once struggled the best you have to come, the best
Kelsi Sheren (2:32:13.000)
you have to come from the fucking worst you've had to take.
Lex Fridman (2:32:16.900)
So it's, this is the mug there and we're sold out of them.
Kelsi Sheren (2:32:20.020)
We just got a bunch of.
Lex Fridman (2:32:21.020)
What does it say?
Kelsi Sheren (2:32:22.020)
Fucking help.
Lex Fridman (2:32:23.020)
Fucking help somebody.
Kelsi Sheren (2:32:24.020)
Fucking help somebody.
Lex Fridman (2:32:25.020)
And so we did, they were so gracious enough to sit with me and be like, what do you want
Lex Fridman (2:32:29.860)
the copy to be like?
Lex Fridman (2:32:30.900)
And I said, what do you think I want it to be like?
Lex Fridman (2:32:33.340)
What would you, if you could write one for me, what it'd be?
Lex Fridman (2:32:35.020)
And they're like, it's going to be around lifting people up.
Lex Fridman (2:32:37.300)
And I was like, okay, cool.
Lex Fridman (2:32:39.020)
And they're like, do you want fuck in the title?
Lex Fridman (2:32:40.380)
And I was like, every other word, if we can have it.
Lex Fridman (2:32:43.420)
And they said, we'll just do once.
Lex Fridman (2:32:44.620)
And I was like, okay, I compromise.
Lex Fridman (2:32:46.520)
And so we came up with that copy and we put it on a mug and we're going to be doing a
Kelsi Sheren (2:32:49.900)
shirt with them.
Lex Fridman (2:32:50.900)
But the, the whole thing to me was that, that embodied what I stand for now and the healing
Kelsi Sheren (2:32:58.460)
I've gotten to now and the point I've gotten to now in my life, because that fucking sand
Lex Fridman (2:33:04.480)
pit almost broke me, like off the face of the earth broke me.
Lex Fridman (2:33:10.340)
First of all, can we go through the full journey of that in terms of your psychological development?
Lex Fridman (2:33:17.380)
Who were you before?
Lex Fridman (2:33:19.780)
Who were you after?
Lex Fridman (2:33:20.780)
Can you think about that?
Kelsi Sheren (2:33:22.560)
Like what was your, if you had to put a brain on the table before and after and try to analyze
Lex Fridman (2:33:29.340)
it?
Kelsi Sheren (2:33:30.340)
Well, they both have CTE.
Lex Fridman (2:33:31.340)
So we know that they're both bruised and gray matter is a little dicey on them.
Lex Fridman (2:33:38.660)
And it may sound the same and it's, it's not, so I'll try to explain it to you.
Lex Fridman (2:33:42.660)
Before that, don't you laugh because I can, I know it's coming.
Kelsi Sheren (2:33:47.260)
I was even louder, even more obnoxious, even more outgoing.
Lex Fridman (2:33:52.500)
I know it's hard to believe.
Kelsi Sheren (2:33:54.060)
This is you humble and quiet right now.
Lex Fridman (2:33:57.500)
This is normal me now.
Kelsi Sheren (2:34:01.140)
This is who I am now.
Lex Fridman (2:34:02.180)
And I love that.
Lex Fridman (2:34:03.180)
But who I was before I was, you know, motocross, taekwondo, tomboy.
Lex Fridman (2:34:12.460)
I didn't know how to dress.
Kelsi Sheren (2:34:14.860)
I thought that if you just wore like the same jeans and t shirt all the time, that was like
Lex Fridman (2:34:17.940)
acceptable behavior as a woman.
Kelsi Sheren (2:34:20.340)
I wore skate shoes.
Lex Fridman (2:34:21.900)
I went to a Catholic school that I refused to wear skirt at.
Kelsi Sheren (2:34:25.540)
I wore pants.
Lex Fridman (2:34:26.540)
I played hacky sack.
Kelsi Sheren (2:34:27.780)
I was so into sports, I cut and split wood with my dad on weekends.
Lex Fridman (2:34:32.540)
We heated our house that way.
Kelsi Sheren (2:34:34.580)
I would go on the transport.
Lex Fridman (2:34:35.820)
I stayed out of trouble for the most part.
Kelsi Sheren (2:34:42.020)
I think I was a fairly good kid.
Lex Fridman (2:34:43.220)
I was pretty angry though for most of my teenage life after my coach.
Kelsi Sheren (2:34:46.700)
I lost my way a little bit there.
Lex Fridman (2:34:49.620)
I was just crazier.
Lex Fridman (2:34:52.620)
But happy?
Lex Fridman (2:34:54.380)
I don't know if I was happy.
Kelsi Sheren (2:34:55.460)
I'm realizing that now.
Kelsi Sheren (2:34:56.880)
I think I was, I think anger overtook who I was, and I think that's why I was such an
Kelsi Sheren (2:35:01.900)
angry individual towards my parents when I was in high school.
Lex Fridman (2:35:04.540)
So parents, was it a little rough relationship with parents?
Kelsi Sheren (2:35:08.820)
I mean, yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:35:09.820)
I mean, my dad was gone a couple of weeks at a time.
Lex Fridman (2:35:12.580)
So my mom, stay at home mom, had to handle me and my brother, who were both competitive
Lex Fridman (2:35:16.680)
athletes at the time, by herself.
Lex Fridman (2:35:19.540)
And when you come home and you have a daughter that just calls you like a bitch to your face
Kelsi Sheren (2:35:23.240)
because she can't, she's being bullied so bad that she can't understand why, but also
Kelsi Sheren (2:35:29.100)
doesn't know how to fix it, but has no other outlet anymore to kind of get rid of it.
Lex Fridman (2:35:34.980)
I was not nice.
Kelsi Sheren (2:35:36.020)
I was a really mean person.
Lex Fridman (2:35:37.260)
I broke my mom.
Kelsi Sheren (2:35:38.380)
I remember the day she stopped yelling.
Lex Fridman (2:35:40.260)
That's the day I know I broke her.
Kelsi Sheren (2:35:41.260)
I broke her.
Lex Fridman (2:35:42.260)
Did you have a source of discipline in your life?
Kelsi Sheren (2:35:44.940)
Like, what, like maybe like your dad, somebody who says you're being a bitch.
Lex Fridman (2:35:50.020)
Oh, like who would call me like that?
Kelsi Sheren (2:35:52.340)
Oh no, no, no, no.
Lex Fridman (2:35:53.620)
My parents were incredible.
Lex Fridman (2:35:54.620)
And my dad came from like a family of like a bajillion kids who lived in a farm with
Lex Fridman (2:35:58.500)
no running water with like super, my dad was brash and abrupt.
Lex Fridman (2:36:03.640)
So like I've caught myself doing that once in a while.
Lex Fridman (2:36:05.520)
So like if I did one thing wrong, if he was just in a mood, I would know it.
Lex Fridman (2:36:11.460)
So you weren't, okay.
Lex Fridman (2:36:13.520)
So that anger just took different forms.
Kelsi Sheren (2:36:15.780)
It took different forms, but it mostly would be directed at my mom because I know she would
Lex Fridman (2:36:19.820)
take it and that was who I had.
Lex Fridman (2:36:22.600)
And I feel bad about it to the day.
Lex Fridman (2:36:24.420)
Like I still, she listened to the Jocko podcast and so did my dad.
Lex Fridman (2:36:28.060)
And my mom promised me she would never read my book because there's certain parts.
Kelsi Sheren (2:36:30.700)
I just, my dad on my deployment, when I called him and told him some of the stuff, he started
Kelsi Sheren (2:36:35.340)
crying.
Lex Fridman (2:36:36.340)
My dad doesn't cry.
Lex Fridman (2:36:37.340)
And he just said, please never tell your mother this.
Lex Fridman (2:36:40.520)
Don't do that to your mom.
Kelsi Sheren (2:36:41.640)
My mom, like my grandfather came from Hungary.
Lex Fridman (2:36:44.500)
He escaped when the Nazis left, when the Soviets came in.
Kelsi Sheren (2:36:49.400)
He wasn't great as a dad.
Lex Fridman (2:36:53.300)
My mom went through a lot as a kid and that was because her dad was in the war.
Kelsi Sheren (2:36:59.860)
That was because her dad didn't know any better and she knew she couldn't be like that.
Lex Fridman (2:37:06.480)
So her way would be yelling.
Lex Fridman (2:37:10.300)
And then I hit about 16 and I wore her down and I broke her, shattered her ability to
Lex Fridman (2:37:16.020)
think that she could have any sort of relationship with me.
Kelsi Sheren (2:37:20.120)
You wouldn't want to have had a relationship with me.
Lex Fridman (2:37:22.860)
But the funny thing is you've rediscovered that now.
Lex Fridman (2:37:26.500)
So she, is she, are you guys close now?
Lex Fridman (2:37:29.300)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (2:37:30.300)
She's, she's so funny.
Lex Fridman (2:37:31.820)
She's coming out to help out again.
Kelsi Sheren (2:37:33.340)
She comes out to help out with Jack all the time and my dad, they're still, they're still
Lex Fridman (2:37:39.140)
truck drivers.
Kelsi Sheren (2:37:40.140)
They're still on the road.
Lex Fridman (2:37:41.140)
They team drive.
Kelsi Sheren (2:37:42.140)
They have their little dogs and they go and they do their thing.
Lex Fridman (2:37:44.100)
And I've had that relationship now it's, it's, it's still strenuous.
Kelsi Sheren (2:37:48.580)
Like I still, when I'm having a hard time, she'll be the person I'll take it out on because
Lex Fridman (2:37:52.620)
I know she can take it.
Kelsi Sheren (2:37:53.980)
Even though I know I shouldn't, it's like, she's my safe space to be like, blah, about
Lex Fridman (2:37:59.940)
everything.
Lex Fridman (2:38:00.940)
And she'll just be like, well, that's not nice.
Lex Fridman (2:38:01.940)
I'm like, well, you're not, fuck it.
Kelsi Sheren (2:38:03.100)
Like I, and I'll take it out on her.
Kelsi Sheren (2:38:04.860)
She knows I don't mean it and I try, um, but for whatever reason, she just, she takes it
Lex Fridman (2:38:11.420)
and um,
Lex Fridman (2:38:12.420)
And it brings it out of you.
Kelsi Sheren (2:38:13.420)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:38:14.420)
Can you describe sort of the various characteristics, the, the shape of your PTSD, the trauma, how
Kelsi Sheren (2:38:20.900)
the anger and hate took shape in you in the, in the seconds, minutes, hours, months, years
Kelsi Sheren (2:38:28.220)
after and after the, the full trauma of all the things you've experienced in Afghanistan.
Lex Fridman (2:38:33.980)
So it's funny because Jocko asked me something and it made me, it's made me, I've really
Kelsi Sheren (2:38:37.620)
been thinking a lot about it and he's like, do you think if somebody of the leadership
Kelsi Sheren (2:38:42.620)
would have just sat you down and said, Hey, Burns, what you're feeling is okay, what you're
Kelsi Sheren (2:38:50.540)
feeling is normal, what you're feeling is what happens when you're in something like
Kelsi Sheren (2:38:56.380)
this.
Lex Fridman (2:38:57.380)
Do you think you would be where you are?
Lex Fridman (2:38:58.380)
And I said, well, I thought about it and I'm like, you know, I don't think I would
Lex Fridman (2:39:02.300)
be because I wouldn't have been medicated out of my mind.
Kelsi Sheren (2:39:05.660)
I wasn't able to process anything because I was just given medication right from the
Lex Fridman (2:39:10.220)
get.
Lex Fridman (2:39:11.220)
And for me, what happened was once that light switch was off, um, I was sent back to Kandahar
Kelsi Sheren (2:39:17.020)
to what I, once the operation was over, we, we flew back to Kandahar, like with the Brits.
Lex Fridman (2:39:22.420)
And then because there was deaths and we lost people on that operation, I had to go to the
Kelsi Sheren (2:39:26.900)
British side for the next, I think three or four days and recant word for word why, what
Kelsi Sheren (2:39:33.180)
happened to a British MP who hand wrote statements, but we had to do that on repeat to make sure
Lex Fridman (2:39:37.780)
we all had the same story and so nobody shot anybody in the back.
Lex Fridman (2:39:42.460)
And so that I don't think is a great way to do that after an after action, after action
Kelsi Sheren (2:39:47.740)
reports happen, but I don't think beating a dead horse and having somebody repeat, repeat,
Kelsi Sheren (2:39:52.860)
repeat, and then just imprint more and more and more.
Lex Fridman (2:39:55.420)
I don't, I don't know that that is a great way of doing that.
Kelsi Sheren (2:39:58.260)
Um,
Lex Fridman (2:39:59.260)
And especially from a perspective of what are they, uh, liability almost like legal,
Kelsi Sheren (2:40:04.580)
that kind of that perspective as opposed to the full perspective.
Kelsi Sheren (2:40:08.780)
I mean, so, so for people who don't know, uh, one is the, the, the overmedication and
Kelsi Sheren (2:40:15.740)
that you had to undergo.
Lex Fridman (2:40:18.300)
And then the other is the social isolation in terms of, I mean, more than what Jaco,
Lex Fridman (2:40:24.980)
what you just mentioned, you also kind of, uh, mentioned that just being with, um, with
Kelsi Sheren (2:40:31.660)
other soldiers you're close with, just sitting there in silence and, um, just sitting in
Kelsi Sheren (2:40:37.660)
that shared understanding, even that in itself communicates like these feelings are normal.
Lex Fridman (2:40:45.500)
Like you don't have to talk and you were robbed of that as well, essentially.
Kelsi Sheren (2:40:51.860)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (2:40:52.860)
Because I was, because I was borrowed, I think Jaco had a name for us when we get borrowed.
Kelsi Sheren (2:40:56.100)
It was like, there was like a, I don't know what they call us, but it's like when you
Lex Fridman (2:40:59.300)
take a person and you put them in another unit, there's a name for it.
Kelsi Sheren (2:41:01.660)
I don't remember what it was.
Lex Fridman (2:41:03.180)
You never see those people again.
Lex Fridman (2:41:05.380)
But because I was in Kanderhart, the doctors gave me the medication because I, I think
Lex Fridman (2:41:10.060)
I was the one who said, I don't, this isn't right.
Kelsi Sheren (2:41:12.140)
I don't feel right.
Lex Fridman (2:41:13.140)
This is wrong.
Kelsi Sheren (2:41:14.140)
Cause when I got back that night, there was supposed to be somebody there to pick me up,
Lex Fridman (2:41:17.420)
to take me to the other side of the base and no one showed.
Lex Fridman (2:41:20.300)
So I, I humped on my kit back to the Canada house and I remember getting in the shower
Lex Fridman (2:41:26.620)
and the rule was quick fucking showers, no water.
Kelsi Sheren (2:41:32.660)
I must've sat on that floor, that shower for half an hour, 45 minutes.
Lex Fridman (2:41:37.980)
I just held myself and cried and didn't even know why I was crying.
Kelsi Sheren (2:41:41.420)
I just knew I needed to cry and I still this day, I, and when they sent me back to the
Kelsi Sheren (2:41:50.820)
FOB, they sent me back with all this medication after spending that time with the Brits and
Kelsi Sheren (2:41:58.260)
they put me back on the guns, medicated out of my fucking tree.
Lex Fridman (2:42:01.340)
I almost shot someone, but they didn't tell my staff that I was on meds.
Lex Fridman (2:42:07.060)
So when the artillery gun was going off and I didn't run to the gun and I was still asleep
Kelsi Sheren (2:42:11.340)
inside the tent with the gun beside my head, they didn't know I was just drugged.
Kelsi Sheren (2:42:16.940)
They just thought I was fucking off somewhere, hanging out with some Americans.
Lex Fridman (2:42:20.180)
They just thought I wasn't doing any of what I should be doing.
Lex Fridman (2:42:24.060)
And then I remember the moment my Sergeant, we did a night shoot and he, he's so funny
Kelsi Sheren (2:42:28.740)
because he called me and goes, ah, fuck, Burns, I remember this, yes, you were standing there
Lex Fridman (2:42:33.700)
with me and I look at you and go, hey, Burns, are you okay?
Lex Fridman (2:42:37.900)
Because your eyes are all fucked.
Lex Fridman (2:42:42.340)
And I, I looked at Sergeant LeBlanc and I just remember going, yeah, I'm good.
Lex Fridman (2:42:46.740)
Like just huh.
Kelsi Sheren (2:42:47.740)
He's like, I still remember that.
Lex Fridman (2:42:51.060)
And I'm like, I know.
Lex Fridman (2:42:52.060)
And he goes, they never tell me anything, fuck, Burns, I did not know the drugs you
Lex Fridman (2:42:56.420)
were on.
Lex Fridman (2:42:57.420)
And as I was on all of them, he goes, I know I walk in, you show me the bottles, ah, fuck,
Lex Fridman (2:43:01.980)
Burns, you shouldn't have been there.
Kelsi Sheren (2:43:05.300)
I guarantee he sounds just like that.
Lex Fridman (2:43:06.780)
You'll find out.
Kelsi Sheren (2:43:07.780)
He's brilliant.
Lex Fridman (2:43:08.780)
He's brilliant.
Kelsi Sheren (2:43:09.780)
Yeah, so what, I mean, I suppose this is a lazy way of dealing with trauma and it's for
Lex Fridman (2:43:19.540)
the military in some sense.
Kelsi Sheren (2:43:21.540)
If you don't have a good program in place, this makes sense, but you should have a good
Lex Fridman (2:43:25.580)
program in place.
Kelsi Sheren (2:43:26.580)
Just like you said, on the prep, on the mental prep side, like just any prep, like training
Kelsi Sheren (2:43:32.540)
people, training people on the, I suppose to, I guess train the fact that you're going
Kelsi Sheren (2:43:38.660)
to have somebody close to you blow up, like you have to probably visualize that.
Lex Fridman (2:43:45.020)
You have to think through that.
Kelsi Sheren (2:43:46.020)
You have to have a process of how to deal with something like that, with that kind of
Lex Fridman (2:43:50.620)
trauma.
Lex Fridman (2:43:51.620)
And then that's it.
Lex Fridman (2:43:52.620)
Tools in the toolbox is what the doctors call it.
Kelsi Sheren (2:43:54.620)
Exactly.
Lex Fridman (2:43:55.620)
I mean, and it's not like weakness, it's actually strength.
Kelsi Sheren (2:43:58.140)
It's like you have to be mentally strong enough to process that.
Lex Fridman (2:44:04.040)
That probably takes a lot of training, but it's a great training, right?
Kelsi Sheren (2:44:09.500)
Well worth it to protect your investment training.
Lex Fridman (2:44:13.020)
Right.
Kelsi Sheren (2:44:14.020)
That's a very cold, but correct way to put it.
Lex Fridman (2:44:16.660)
I mean, it's cold.
Kelsi Sheren (2:44:17.660)
I thought you would appreciate the coldness of the way I articulated that.
Lex Fridman (2:44:22.420)
Well, yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (2:44:23.420)
I mean, I'm of two minds in this.
Lex Fridman (2:44:25.540)
I don't, I sometimes wonder like what I would be like as a soldier, actually.
Kelsi Sheren (2:44:32.500)
I don't know, because I love country and I love all the things you're mentioning.
Kelsi Sheren (2:44:36.460)
Like I could see myself probably dying for my country and also enjoying the skill of
Kelsi Sheren (2:44:42.060)
it.
Lex Fridman (2:44:43.060)
The very like OCD, like very proficient.
Kelsi Sheren (2:44:48.020)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:44:49.020)
But then also the human side, I fall in love with people.
Kelsi Sheren (2:44:53.340)
I fall in love with everything.
Lex Fridman (2:44:54.540)
So I don't know, I suppose you have to shut off the part of your brain when you're executing
Kelsi Sheren (2:45:00.420)
a mission that cares about other humans outside your close knit group.
Lex Fridman (2:45:09.780)
Like there's no time for philosophical thinking.
Kelsi Sheren (2:45:11.900)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (2:45:12.900)
I suppose that's why it's better to be young.
Kelsi Sheren (2:45:15.380)
Young and dumb.
Lex Fridman (2:45:17.700)
You're not necessarily dumb.
Kelsi Sheren (2:45:19.300)
It's just like you were over that energy of excitement of proficiency and excellence is
Lex Fridman (2:45:27.580)
just higher than it is later in life.
Kelsi Sheren (2:45:30.380)
You're not dumb.
Kelsi Sheren (2:45:32.660)
I was not dumb, but I was naive, uneducated, not well trained and had an arrogance because
Kelsi Sheren (2:45:46.540)
we were told we were the fucking shit.
Lex Fridman (2:45:49.300)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (2:45:50.300)
You're amazing.
Lex Fridman (2:45:51.300)
Okay.
Kelsi Sheren (2:45:52.300)
I'm amazing.
Lex Fridman (2:45:53.300)
So I wonder, do they think if we do mental training?
Kelsi Sheren (2:45:56.380)
That makes you weak.
Lex Fridman (2:45:57.540)
Do you think the military thinks that makes you weak?
Kelsi Sheren (2:46:00.260)
Well, yes.
Lex Fridman (2:46:01.260)
And the reason I can say that is because it's obvious in the way that they handle it now.
Lex Fridman (2:46:05.780)
So like if a soldier says, hey, I'm really struggling with that last op we were on, man,
Lex Fridman (2:46:09.540)
it's just really, it's getting to me, I'm having a hard time sleeping.
Lex Fridman (2:46:13.620)
They're going to go, okay, well, how, how hard of a time sleeping are you having?
Lex Fridman (2:46:19.740)
And then you get that re and you go, oh no, I'm not, it's not that bad.
Kelsi Sheren (2:46:22.780)
I'm not, I don't need anything for it.
Lex Fridman (2:46:24.580)
Like I'm just like once in a while I'm losing some sleep.
Kelsi Sheren (2:46:26.420)
They're like, okay.
Kelsi Sheren (2:46:27.420)
Because you know that pen moves, it's all getting written down and then you're dead
Kelsi Sheren (2:46:31.340)
red, you're dead red, which means you're not deploying again.
Lex Fridman (2:46:33.580)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:46:34.580)
And then you're not able to do the thing you love the most with the people you love the
Lex Fridman (2:46:36.660)
most.
Kelsi Sheren (2:46:37.660)
Right.
Kelsi Sheren (2:46:38.660)
I mean, but also this is really difficult and I'd love to talk to you about PTSD, but
Kelsi Sheren (2:46:44.100)
like.
Lex Fridman (2:46:45.100)
Sorry.
Kelsi Sheren (2:46:46.100)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (2:46:47.100)
I keep going off.
Kelsi Sheren (2:46:48.100)
No, please.
Lex Fridman (2:46:49.100)
So I'm, I'm hoping to, um, like launch a company, you know, in the engineering space and the,
Lex Fridman (2:47:01.260)
and I currently lead, I've led a few people and it's always this kind of, um, like how
Kelsi Sheren (2:47:08.980)
much are you supposed to push people because people are, everyone is weak and lazy.
Lex Fridman (2:47:14.420)
Are you quoting her text messages from earlier?
Lex Fridman (2:47:17.540)
Yeah, exactly.
Kelsi Sheren (2:47:18.540)
I'm quoting, all I have is just quotes from you.
Lex Fridman (2:47:21.180)
That's okay.
Kelsi Sheren (2:47:22.180)
Uh, tells me how much we've spoken in the past week, poor soul.
Kelsi Sheren (2:47:26.540)
I just, I don't know what to do because sometimes people are really struggling, like really
Kelsi Sheren (2:47:31.580)
struggling in a way with their being there.
Kelsi Sheren (2:47:34.140)
Like it's the, it's the Goggins thing is like, where's the line to where you're actually
Kelsi Sheren (2:47:39.580)
breaking the human being versus where you're breaking them at the places where they will
Lex Fridman (2:47:45.780)
grow back stronger.
Kelsi Sheren (2:47:47.820)
Like in that line is tricky, uh, to, to truly understand.
Kelsi Sheren (2:47:52.300)
I think the military eras on the side of like, they, you know, like push them beyond all
Kelsi Sheren (2:47:58.820)
limits, physical, physical, but mental, they don't, they need to respect the mental more.
Lex Fridman (2:48:03.940)
Uh, they fuck with the brain a little bit.
Kelsi Sheren (2:48:06.100)
I mean, in basic training, they like scream in your face and to see who's going to crack
Lex Fridman (2:48:09.460)
and they, they put you on sleep deprivation to see who's weak enough that they can't handle
Kelsi Sheren (2:48:13.740)
sleep depth.
Lex Fridman (2:48:14.740)
They'll, they do stuff to you.
Kelsi Sheren (2:48:16.300)
Like I know if you're a downed pilot, you have to go and you have to do this training
Lex Fridman (2:48:20.420)
and like it's, you'll get captured.
Kelsi Sheren (2:48:22.300)
It's like this whole thing and they fuck with your brain, but there's a line.
Lex Fridman (2:48:27.920)
There's a line.
Kelsi Sheren (2:48:29.680)
My issue is go to the line, cross the line, give them the tools to come back from the
Lex Fridman (2:48:37.420)
line.
Kelsi Sheren (2:48:38.420)
Right.
Lex Fridman (2:48:39.420)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (2:48:40.420)
We don't do that.
Lex Fridman (2:48:41.420)
We don't, we, we know there's PTSD.
Kelsi Sheren (2:48:43.400)
We know there's a, such a thing.
Lex Fridman (2:48:44.980)
We understand there's anxiety and depression.
Kelsi Sheren (2:48:46.540)
We understand there's major depressive disorder.
Lex Fridman (2:48:48.140)
We understand that there are precursors.
Kelsi Sheren (2:48:51.140)
There are signs and symptoms.
Lex Fridman (2:48:52.400)
We understand that.
Lex Fridman (2:48:54.340)
So why are we not building enough of a toolkit, whether that be, I'm not talking medication.
Lex Fridman (2:49:00.860)
I'm talking, it sounds woo woo, but fucking trust me, it works.
Kelsi Sheren (2:49:06.260)
I'm talking meditation.
Lex Fridman (2:49:08.280)
I'm talking yoga.
Kelsi Sheren (2:49:09.820)
I'm talking about peer group support.
Kelsi Sheren (2:49:11.980)
I'm talking about if you go to your doctor and report this, there's, you're not automatically
Kelsi Sheren (2:49:16.800)
going to be losing your job.
Lex Fridman (2:49:18.980)
Why aren't we giving the proper tools and the education needed?
Kelsi Sheren (2:49:22.340)
These things are not difficult to teach.
Lex Fridman (2:49:24.760)
They don't take a lot of time.
Kelsi Sheren (2:49:26.100)
They don't take a lot of money.
Lex Fridman (2:49:27.560)
The only time it takes a lot of money is when you want to medicate.
Kelsi Sheren (2:49:30.440)
We don't need to medicate you yet.
Lex Fridman (2:49:32.500)
You only need to be medicated if you're a danger to someone else or yourself.
Lex Fridman (2:49:35.820)
And most of the time, because of the way the system is set, you'll lie about it through
Lex Fridman (2:49:39.440)
your fucking teeth, just so that no one touches you.
Lex Fridman (2:49:42.660)
So from the perspective of the military, do you think you can still be a bad motherfucker
Lex Fridman (2:49:47.620)
and do all the mental work?
Kelsi Sheren (2:49:50.060)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (2:49:51.060)
Some of the baddest dudes I've ever known are like, I gotta go to yoga.
Kelsi Sheren (2:49:55.820)
I gotta go meditate.
Lex Fridman (2:49:57.780)
I go do ayah with those guys.
Lex Fridman (2:49:59.380)
Why?
Lex Fridman (2:50:00.380)
Because they know that that's not okay to be like that in your life.
Lex Fridman (2:50:04.980)
Can you answer the ridiculously big question of what is PTSD?
Lex Fridman (2:50:10.140)
Do you understand the basic characteristics of it?
Kelsi Sheren (2:50:13.860)
Is there universal characteristics from your own unique experience, from what you've understood
Lex Fridman (2:50:20.500)
about it?
Kelsi Sheren (2:50:21.500)
Yeah, of course there are.
Lex Fridman (2:50:22.500)
So there's the basic things that a doctor looks for when they're diagnosing PTSD.
Kelsi Sheren (2:50:27.460)
I'm not a doctor.
Lex Fridman (2:50:28.460)
Let me make that fucking clear.
Lex Fridman (2:50:30.100)
But there are things that you look for.
Lex Fridman (2:50:32.320)
You look for insomnia.
Kelsi Sheren (2:50:34.060)
You look for anger and aggression.
Lex Fridman (2:50:36.100)
You look for people to fly off the handle.
Kelsi Sheren (2:50:38.260)
You look for avoidance.
Lex Fridman (2:50:40.700)
You can tell in somebody's body.
Kelsi Sheren (2:50:42.820)
People who can't sleep.
Kelsi Sheren (2:50:43.820)
If you can't sleep, you know that after a certain amount of time, they're just going
Kelsi Sheren (2:50:47.500)
to deteriorate.
Lex Fridman (2:50:49.540)
You know, sleeplessness, triggers.
Kelsi Sheren (2:50:51.540)
When you say avoidance, do you mean...
Lex Fridman (2:50:54.020)
Avoidance.
Lex Fridman (2:50:55.020)
So like, when I first got back to Canada, I avoided everybody that was Middle Eastern
Lex Fridman (2:50:58.980)
at all costs, no matter how much of a difference it made in my day.
Kelsi Sheren (2:51:03.320)
If I had to not go somewhere for one of the greatest events of my life, I wouldn't have
Lex Fridman (2:51:07.100)
went.
Lex Fridman (2:51:08.100)
But isn't there some aspect that are combined with the triggers?
Kelsi Sheren (2:51:11.540)
Maybe it's wise to avoid triggers even like for your own personal health, well being.
Kelsi Sheren (2:51:16.060)
Well that's it.
Lex Fridman (2:51:17.060)
For me, that was one of my triggers.
Lex Fridman (2:51:19.060)
So you have triggers.
Lex Fridman (2:51:20.740)
And then you also deal with things like sounds and smells.
Kelsi Sheren (2:51:24.500)
You can tell.
Lex Fridman (2:51:25.500)
You can tell when someone's triggered.
Kelsi Sheren (2:51:26.700)
A lot of vets don't like fireworks.
Lex Fridman (2:51:28.660)
It's like, okay, well remove yourself from the situation.
Lex Fridman (2:51:31.620)
So there's other things within PTSD that kind of rear its head that with PTSD kind of attach
Lex Fridman (2:51:39.620)
other things.
Lex Fridman (2:51:40.620)
So like when I was diagnosed with PTSD, I think it was like four years later, I was
Lex Fridman (2:51:43.580)
diagnosed with major depressive disorder.
Lex Fridman (2:51:46.200)
And that was kind of a compilation of things that was just like a shit show there.
Lex Fridman (2:51:50.800)
What is major depressive disorder?
Kelsi Sheren (2:51:52.300)
Good question.
Lex Fridman (2:51:53.300)
Is there an answer?
Kelsi Sheren (2:51:56.060)
I don't have one.
Lex Fridman (2:51:57.060)
I was told I had it.
Lex Fridman (2:51:58.980)
Okay, so I mean, what does your mind go through?
Kelsi Sheren (2:52:05.180)
Where are the places that my mind goes, your mind goes like the dark places when I get
Lex Fridman (2:52:10.820)
triggered and when it was like really bad?
Lex Fridman (2:52:12.980)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (2:52:13.980)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (2:52:14.980)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:52:15.980)
So you thought about suicide every minute of every day.
Lex Fridman (2:52:20.140)
What are the pros of suicide in your mind at that time?
Kelsi Sheren (2:52:23.500)
At that time, the pros were no one has to deal with this anymore, I don't have to feel
Kelsi Sheren (2:52:29.740)
this way anymore, I'm a burden to my family, I'm a burden to the military system, I'm weak,
Kelsi Sheren (2:52:37.500)
I'm a bad soldier, I didn't do my job, I don't deserve to be alive, I don't deserve veterans
Kelsi Sheren (2:52:44.100)
affairs support, my parents don't deserve to watch me go through this, the guy I was
Kelsi Sheren (2:52:49.740)
dating didn't deserve to put up with the bullshit I put him through, the people who drive with
Kelsi Sheren (2:52:56.060)
me in cars didn't deserve to almost hit medians because I swerved because of a piece of garbage,
Kelsi Sheren (2:53:02.980)
people didn't deserve my racist outburst, people didn't deserve, people didn't, I did
Lex Fridman (2:53:08.220)
not deserve to be breathing anymore.
Kelsi Sheren (2:53:10.260)
I should have died there and I wished I died there.
Lex Fridman (2:53:15.060)
So self hate there too.
Lex Fridman (2:53:17.820)
So that's at the core of it, that's like this, so how do you escape from that place?
Lex Fridman (2:53:30.380)
How do you overcome that depression essentially at the core of the desire to kill yourself?
Lex Fridman (2:53:39.420)
What basic principles, I mean, we could talk about ayahuasca, but basic principles of literally
Lex Fridman (2:53:46.540)
how do you escape that moment?
Kelsi Sheren (2:53:48.380)
Yeah, previous to any of that, I did from 2009, I got out, so I was medically, I was
Kelsi Sheren (2:53:53.460)
3B medical honorable discharge in 2011, May 23rd, 2011, so I left the military then.
Lex Fridman (2:54:00.100)
And so it's been 10 years, just over 10 years, oh my God, it's 10 and a half years, I just
Lex Fridman (2:54:04.780)
realized that right now.
Kelsi Sheren (2:54:05.780)
Oh my God.
Lex Fridman (2:54:06.780)
Happy anniversary.
Kelsi Sheren (2:54:07.780)
Thanks, man.
Lex Fridman (2:54:08.780)
Awesome.
Lex Fridman (2:54:09.780)
So I've been out for 10 years and I would say the reason I didn't kill myself for the
Lex Fridman (2:54:14.980)
longest time was the individual I was dating.
Kelsi Sheren (2:54:18.900)
That was straight across the board, that was it.
Kelsi Sheren (2:54:22.260)
For me, there was no relief for about six years of the thought of just kill yourself,
Kelsi Sheren (2:54:31.340)
kill yourself, kill yourself.
Lex Fridman (2:54:32.340)
It's easier if you just do it.
Kelsi Sheren (2:54:33.340)
That voice was so strong for that long, there was really no relief.
Lex Fridman (2:54:36.780)
What there was though was implementation of different medications, realizing they weren't
Kelsi Sheren (2:54:44.220)
working, trying different things, getting myself to a point where I could leave my house
Kelsi Sheren (2:54:49.540)
comfortably ish again, and I wasn't triggered, which then allowed me to travel, which then
Kelsi Sheren (2:54:54.980)
allowed me to slowly try to go back to school, which by the way, it was a very bad idea.
Lex Fridman (2:54:59.900)
That was a bad idea, that was bad.
Kelsi Sheren (2:55:02.740)
I went too early, they started practicing active shooter drills in our school.
Lex Fridman (2:55:08.180)
It was bad, my professors understood.
Kelsi Sheren (2:55:11.700)
School was full of triggers, it turns out.
Lex Fridman (2:55:14.100)
It is when you live in Vancouver.
Kelsi Sheren (2:55:16.980)
There's a theme to this conversation about your love for Canada.
Kelsi Sheren (2:55:20.900)
Look at me, I love my fucking country, I am one of the most patriotic people you will
Kelsi Sheren (2:55:25.940)
meet in it.
Lex Fridman (2:55:26.940)
I think Canada is one of the greatest fucking places on the earth.
Kelsi Sheren (2:55:31.740)
I think in the past two years or three years, I have seen what I loved so deeply, so proudly
Lex Fridman (2:55:38.860)
preached about so...
Kelsi Sheren (2:55:50.380)
I'm so proud of what I did there.
Lex Fridman (2:55:55.060)
And I'm so proud of the country I got to represent, because I was good at my job.
Kelsi Sheren (2:56:04.260)
Being great at your job for a country you love, you just don't like some of the politicians
Lex Fridman (2:56:08.940)
some of the time.
Kelsi Sheren (2:56:09.940)
It's not even the politicians anymore, it's the state of the country.
Lex Fridman (2:56:14.620)
I'm a second class citizen in my own country right now.
Kelsi Sheren (2:56:17.760)
I can't travel to see my parents within my own country.
Lex Fridman (2:56:21.220)
I'm not allowed to step foot in my son's school.
Kelsi Sheren (2:56:24.740)
I am not allowed to go to a restaurant with my family.
Kelsi Sheren (2:56:29.100)
I'm not allowed to leave Canada without, I told you all the stuff I have to do to get
Kelsi Sheren (2:56:34.620)
here.
Lex Fridman (2:56:35.620)
To even get home, I have to do the same.
Kelsi Sheren (2:56:38.300)
I'm watched by the RCMP, neighbors rat you out.
Lex Fridman (2:56:44.900)
So for somebody who fought for their country.
Kelsi Sheren (2:56:47.300)
I hate it, it makes me so sad.
Kelsi Sheren (2:56:50.100)
To go through this process of what many consider to be power overreach by government in the
Kelsi Sheren (2:56:56.060)
face of this particular pandemic.
Kelsi Sheren (2:57:00.620)
I always knew I had a hard time, I loved Canada, the day I got spit on when I got home was
Kelsi Sheren (2:57:05.140)
not ideal.
Lex Fridman (2:57:06.140)
But the thing was, I knew long enough that if I just put one foot in front of the other
Lex Fridman (2:57:17.260)
and kept going to treatment, and kept doing what my doctor told me to do, that I could
Lex Fridman (2:57:23.580)
pull out of this if I tried.
Kelsi Sheren (2:57:26.980)
I was told that I could do anything in my life.
Lex Fridman (2:57:29.820)
It didn't matter.
Kelsi Sheren (2:57:31.460)
As long as I tried.
Lex Fridman (2:57:32.980)
Was trying really hard?
Kelsi Sheren (2:57:36.100)
Trying was harder than breathing.
Lex Fridman (2:57:41.700)
It was exhausting.
Kelsi Sheren (2:57:42.980)
It was, I would be awake for like half a day and every minute of that day, I'd just stare
Lex Fridman (2:57:50.780)
at the wall and just want to kill myself.
Kelsi Sheren (2:57:53.940)
That's what I've had people close to me who suffer from depression and it was like, it's
Lex Fridman (2:58:00.220)
unclear how to escape, but it's clear that you need to try something.
Lex Fridman (2:58:06.180)
And they didn't want to even try.
Lex Fridman (2:58:07.940)
Because you have no try in you.
Kelsi Sheren (2:58:10.940)
I'm watching a person who has no energy essentially to like do any of it and it's like so hopeless.
Lex Fridman (2:58:18.340)
But you have to try and I think some of that has to do with all the different physical
Kelsi Sheren (2:58:23.260)
feeds you have to do.
Lex Fridman (2:58:24.260)
Like when you have nothing left, you still keep going.
Kelsi Sheren (2:58:27.380)
That same like weird drive when you're empty, you still keep going.
Lex Fridman (2:58:33.580)
I wanted to give up.
Kelsi Sheren (2:58:34.580)
I tried.
Lex Fridman (2:58:35.580)
It's, I did.
Kelsi Sheren (2:58:37.660)
I'm really lucky because it really was the one person that I'd wake up to next every
Lex Fridman (2:58:42.900)
day and he'd be like, hey, so that new drug you're on?
Kelsi Sheren (2:58:47.700)
Fun fact, if you don't go to sleep right away, you talk and when you talk, you just don't
Kelsi Sheren (2:58:51.220)
fucking stop and you go off about everything that's horrible and I'm like, what are you
Lex Fridman (2:58:56.580)
talking about?
Lex Fridman (2:58:57.580)
No, last night.
Kelsi Sheren (2:58:58.580)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:58:59.580)
You took that pill.
Lex Fridman (2:59:00.580)
Guess what?
Lex Fridman (2:59:01.580)
You just, you just, you didn't stop.
Kelsi Sheren (2:59:02.580)
I'm like, I have no recollection.
Lex Fridman (2:59:03.580)
I'd get up in the middle of the night.
Kelsi Sheren (2:59:04.580)
I would cook food like on a stove and it would be, hopefully we don't die because I would
Lex Fridman (2:59:11.580)
have no recollection because of the drugs.
Kelsi Sheren (2:59:14.780)
The idea that when people say, well, just put yourself out of depression, I'm a highly
Lex Fridman (2:59:21.060)
motivated individual.
Kelsi Sheren (2:59:25.860)
The idea of lifting my head up to turnover was daunting.
Lex Fridman (2:59:32.620)
It's terrifying.
Kelsi Sheren (2:59:33.620)
It's like for somebody so as driven as you to completely lose all of that for moments
Lex Fridman (2:59:39.340)
of time, for stretches of time.
Kelsi Sheren (2:59:43.420)
Fuck the mind is a motherfucker.
Lex Fridman (2:59:45.100)
It is.
Kelsi Sheren (2:59:46.100)
I can't, for somebody like, I can't, I can't, I'm so, I'm so grateful for people like you
Lex Fridman (2:59:54.260)
to be able to pull out of that.
Kelsi Sheren (2:59:56.540)
I've been always the opposite.
Kelsi Sheren (2:59:58.980)
Like I've been very fortunate to just always find joy, meaning in everything, even the
Kelsi Sheren (30:00.520)
I was never exposed to weapons of any kind.
Lex Fridman (30:03.920)
If anything, it was the opposite.
Kelsi Sheren (30:07.000)
All the hunters on the property, like all the deer would come to our property and all
Kelsi Sheren (30:10.680)
the hunters would be, no, I'm not, my mom would put salt licks out so that they wouldn't
Kelsi Sheren (30:14.080)
get killed.
Lex Fridman (30:15.080)
Your property was the safe space for the deer.
Kelsi Sheren (30:16.640)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (30:17.640)
It was 17 acres of forest and they just, we had two turkeys that used to walk up and down
Kelsi Sheren (30:22.160)
the driveway every day.
Lex Fridman (30:23.440)
We had bears in there and nobody bothered them.
Lex Fridman (30:26.280)
And so there was no aspect of like, I want to go kill shit, that was not like a thing.
Lex Fridman (30:31.000)
I had no idea I wanted to take anybody off the face of the earth or any thing.
Kelsi Sheren (30:35.800)
I went to school and because I'm a history person, my parents has always made it really
Lex Fridman (30:43.400)
important that Remembrance Day is the thing in our life.
Lex Fridman (30:46.360)
So that's Veterans Day for you.
Lex Fridman (30:47.480)
So it's November 11th and it's, you go, you honor.
Kelsi Sheren (30:51.720)
I don't care if you don't want to go, I don't care if it's raining, you go.
Lex Fridman (30:55.920)
And so I went to the Remembrance Day ceremony in Ottawa that year, which was, it's our capital,
Kelsi Sheren (31:01.480)
which is, yeah, it's our capital and it's really small.
Lex Fridman (31:04.800)
And so I went, but I took the bus and I was on the bus back to Algonquin.
Lex Fridman (31:10.360)
And I met a lady who was like a World War II vet, really old lady, she had an Air Force
Lex Fridman (31:16.800)
uniform on and just like this row of medals.
Lex Fridman (31:19.120)
And I mean, I think you can tell by our limited to extreme interactions we've had over the
Lex Fridman (31:25.560)
short period of time, I'm curious and I'll just ask you.
Lex Fridman (31:29.160)
And so I just got up and talked to her and just started talking to her.
Lex Fridman (31:32.480)
And she didn't say like, I don't remember exactly her words, but she served, she was
Kelsi Sheren (31:37.600)
one of the first females to fly and all of these kinds of things that stuck in my head.
Lex Fridman (31:44.320)
And we just kind of kept talking and I missed my stop.
Lex Fridman (31:47.360)
And then I finished talking to her and I got back on the bus and went back to the college
Lex Fridman (31:51.960)
and walked into my small apartment where I had two roommates, these two guys I went to
Kelsi Sheren (31:58.400)
high school with, one of them I went to high school with, one was from out of town.
Lex Fridman (32:01.080)
And I just didn't like what I was, I wasn't happy, I wasn't doing what I wanted to do.
Lex Fridman (32:08.280)
And I didn't know what I wanted to do truthfully.
Lex Fridman (32:11.360)
Something just said, why don't you join the army?
Kelsi Sheren (32:14.600)
Like in myself, my self talk was like, let's just join the military, let's do it.
Kelsi Sheren (32:19.080)
Are you in general somebody that just follows the gut, like when your heart tells you something,
Lex Fridman (32:24.640)
you go with it?
Kelsi Sheren (32:25.640)
For the most part, because I figured out, at least now I figured out what parts I could,
Kelsi Sheren (32:31.120)
like what feeling I can trust and which one I can't.
Lex Fridman (32:33.280)
Which one's anxiety versus which one's my actual intuition talking.
Lex Fridman (32:37.160)
So why did you sign up to be an artillery gunner?
Lex Fridman (32:39.720)
Because they wouldn't let me be infantry.
Lex Fridman (32:42.240)
I mean, why would you want to be infantry?
Lex Fridman (32:48.640)
I mean, you're naming a lot of dangerous activities.
Kelsi Sheren (32:52.440)
Yeah, but that wasn't a thought in my mind at the time.
Kelsi Sheren (32:56.480)
My idea was if I was going to do this and I was going to put myself through the bullshit
Lex Fridman (32:59.760)
and the training and all of the hell and the pushups and the screaming dad, I wanted to
Lex Fridman (33:04.480)
do something that I know was actually going to be affecting something.
Lex Fridman (33:07.060)
And what I knew was making change or affecting or on the front lines was infantry, artillery
Lex Fridman (33:11.320)
or armored.
Lex Fridman (33:12.320)
So I was like, one of those.
Lex Fridman (33:14.040)
Can you explain the difference, infantry, artillery and armored?
Lex Fridman (33:16.920)
Do you want like the layman's term or do you want me to actually explain, explain?
Kelsi Sheren (33:20.800)
Well, listening to your conversation with Jaco, especially, I love how you get into
Kelsi Sheren (33:24.440)
details.
Lex Fridman (33:25.440)
Okay, so let's detail this then.
Kelsi Sheren (33:26.440)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (33:27.440)
So infantry is your frontline door kicking, you know, blasting the door open, running
Lex Fridman (33:34.240)
and get the fuck on the ground, just that, that, that, that, that.
Kelsi Sheren (33:36.640)
They're the guys that, you know, double tap you in the face and they show up in the middle
Kelsi Sheren (33:39.840)
of the night and put a barrel in your head.
Kelsi Sheren (33:41.800)
Like those are the guys that are sleeping in the trenches, that are eating MREs, who
Kelsi Sheren (33:46.480)
are being shot at, who are being blown up, who are doing the dirty work and not sleeping
Lex Fridman (33:51.360)
and carrying the a hundred pound pack and, and are side by side with your buddies in
Kelsi Sheren (33:55.840)
the trenches.
Lex Fridman (33:56.840)
I wanted that.
Kelsi Sheren (33:57.840)
That.
Lex Fridman (33:58.840)
They said it was too small for that.
Lex Fridman (34:01.520)
So then...
Lex Fridman (34:02.520)
You were, sorry to interrupt, you were too small under a hundred pounds?
Kelsi Sheren (34:05.720)
At the time I was about 103 and I'm, I'm five foot, like on a, if you roll my back out,
Lex Fridman (34:10.800)
like I really try, I'm five foot.
Kelsi Sheren (34:14.640)
At the time though, I think my, my license said 411, so.
Lex Fridman (34:19.880)
So you were too small for infantry.
Kelsi Sheren (34:23.040)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (34:24.040)
They just, like, there was no mandate at which they said you can't be, but they said, you
Kelsi Sheren (34:28.400)
know, we don't want to put you through training that you're going to fail out of and then
Lex Fridman (34:31.120)
have to recourse you and then find a new job for you.
Lex Fridman (34:33.560)
And they want to try to, this is what you're going in for.
Lex Fridman (34:36.800)
They want to have you follow through that path.
Lex Fridman (34:39.560)
So then there was armored, which are your tanks.
Lex Fridman (34:42.840)
So that's your movie like Fury where your tank battles and, which we don't really do
Kelsi Sheren (34:48.120)
anymore, but you're rolling around in tanks, you've got guys in the back or you're a driver,
Kelsi Sheren (34:51.920)
you're a turret gunner, which I would have enjoyed, but the idea of being in a closed
Kelsi Sheren (34:57.280)
metal box, something about it made me panic.
Lex Fridman (35:00.420)
So I was like, maybe not for me.
Kelsi Sheren (35:03.000)
There's of course power to that kind of a big gun.
Lex Fridman (35:06.680)
Well, that's why I went for the bigger one.
Kelsi Sheren (35:08.760)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (35:09.760)
By the way, think of Russia leads the world in number of tanks.
Kelsi Sheren (35:12.720)
We're still, it's very like, what is it, alpha demonstration of like, look, we have largest
Lex Fridman (35:19.480)
number of tanks.
Lex Fridman (35:20.660)
You know what takes tanks out though?
Lex Fridman (35:22.120)
What?
Kelsi Sheren (35:23.120)
Some gasoline, some old batteries and a wire.
Lex Fridman (35:25.280)
Yeah, but tanks still look badass.
Kelsi Sheren (35:27.520)
They look great, but they don't last.
Lex Fridman (35:29.380)
But so much of the military, like we said with the recruiting videos, it's a display
Kelsi Sheren (35:33.300)
of power versus the actual implementation of power.
Lex Fridman (35:37.080)
Fair.
Kelsi Sheren (35:38.080)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (35:39.080)
Artillery.
Lex Fridman (35:40.080)
So I'm doing my best here.
Kelsi Sheren (35:41.080)
I don't know what double tap means, which you said earlier, it means two shots to the
Kelsi Sheren (35:45.360)
face.
Lex Fridman (35:46.360)
Why two?
Kelsi Sheren (35:47.360)
To be sure.
Lex Fridman (35:48.360)
Okay.
Kelsi Sheren (35:49.360)
All right.
Lex Fridman (35:50.360)
You guys, taxpayers pay for the ammo.
Kelsi Sheren (35:51.360)
It's fine.
Lex Fridman (35:52.360)
So, but you don't want to do three because that's wasting the ammo.
Kelsi Sheren (35:54.000)
Well, that's now that's a waste.
Lex Fridman (35:55.560)
Okay.
Kelsi Sheren (35:56.560)
Double tap to the face.
Kelsi Sheren (35:57.560)
There's so much awesome terminology here or gruesome terminology, depending on your
Kelsi Sheren (36:01.320)
perspective.
Lex Fridman (36:02.320)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (36:03.320)
So artillery.
Lex Fridman (36:04.320)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (36:05.320)
So that's the hand of God.
Lex Fridman (36:06.320)
Sorry.
Kelsi Sheren (36:07.320)
No, that's intensely a romanticized version, but okay, artillery, the hand of God.
Lex Fridman (36:16.240)
So it will reach out and touch you from wherever we want.
Kelsi Sheren (36:19.720)
It's like F18 pilots or bombers.
Lex Fridman (36:24.800)
You won't know they're there until they're there.
Lex Fridman (36:28.160)
And so for artillery, I really honestly didn't think artillery would be a fit for me.
Lex Fridman (36:33.720)
I didn't know much about it.
Kelsi Sheren (36:35.160)
They were just like, these are what you can pick from.
Lex Fridman (36:38.280)
And I was like, I'll go here.
Lex Fridman (36:40.280)
So in World War II, they used much closer artillery.
Lex Fridman (36:43.780)
So we're called the Royal Canadian Horse Artillery because the Queen made us Royal Canadian Artillery.
Lex Fridman (36:50.180)
And we shoot these rounds.
Lex Fridman (36:52.400)
When you're in training, you shoot smaller, smaller ammunition.
Kelsi Sheren (36:55.080)
They're about 40 pounds.
Lex Fridman (36:56.520)
They go, I'm going to get this wrong, 20 K, 20 kilometers.
Lex Fridman (37:00.720)
So whatever that is in your mile things.
Lex Fridman (37:04.240)
And they have a casing on them and they're much easier.
Kelsi Sheren (37:08.840)
They're easier to handle.
Lex Fridman (37:10.340)
The guns are smaller.
Kelsi Sheren (37:11.340)
You need less people for them.
Lex Fridman (37:12.640)
They're basically what you train on nowadays.
Kelsi Sheren (37:14.360)
It's not what we use overseas.
Lex Fridman (37:16.180)
What we use overseas, now those things are beautiful.
Kelsi Sheren (37:19.480)
Those are just a sheer work of the engineering behind them just makes my heart skip a beat.
Lex Fridman (37:25.640)
Yeah, the engineering on modern guns is amazing.
Lex Fridman (37:27.360)
So are we talking about machine guns here?
Lex Fridman (37:29.000)
So fully automatic?
Kelsi Sheren (37:30.000)
No, you're talking about an artillery gun.
Lex Fridman (37:31.720)
So what it is, it's a 155 millimeter howitzer that shoots up to up to 40 kilometers accurately,
Kelsi Sheren (37:38.600)
45 unrecorded and it shoots a hundred pound round.
Lex Fridman (37:44.120)
Oh, okay.
Lex Fridman (37:47.760)
So that, but there is still precision.
Lex Fridman (37:50.560)
Accurate as hell.
Kelsi Sheren (37:51.560)
Accurate.
Lex Fridman (37:52.560)
Okay.
Kelsi Sheren (37:53.560)
Accurate if the people behind it that are shooting it and aiming it are accurate.
Lex Fridman (37:56.960)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (37:58.400)
So how, at which stage of the warfare do they come in?
Lex Fridman (38:01.920)
Are they saving you?
Kelsi Sheren (38:03.240)
Like say a bunch of people get raided, a bunch of the sole infantry get raided and then the
Kelsi Sheren (38:08.680)
artillery saves them or are they the first line of attack or what are they, where does
Lex Fridman (38:13.240)
the artillery go?
Lex Fridman (38:14.720)
Like the hand of God presumes they're helping.
Kelsi Sheren (38:17.400)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (38:18.400)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (38:19.400)
That's, well, that's it.
Lex Fridman (38:20.400)
So depending on the operation or whomever is running it or how they want it done, sometimes
Kelsi Sheren (38:25.000)
if they just know there's targets, they'll use us, you know, high value targets.
Lex Fridman (38:29.200)
So we have this round, it's called the Excalibur round.
Kelsi Sheren (38:32.720)
It costs about half a million dollars per round.
Kelsi Sheren (38:34.680)
It comes in a special tube that is like sealed and locked and you have to get permission
Kelsi Sheren (38:39.840)
from Ottawa to shoot it and it's only used for VIP targets.
Lex Fridman (38:43.440)
So like we have VIP for everyone and it will, it's GPS guided, it's rocket propelled and
Kelsi Sheren (38:50.280)
when you fire it, it will, if this is a wall and somebody's standing on this side of it,
Lex Fridman (38:57.040)
we'll hit you right there.
Kelsi Sheren (38:58.120)
We won't touch that wall, it will hit you pinpoint.
Lex Fridman (39:01.480)
It'll go right through whatever concrete, whatever and it will destroy.
Lex Fridman (39:06.480)
So it's basically the same thing as being a sniper, but with a much more damaging weapon.
Lex Fridman (39:12.520)
We don't use that round often.
Kelsi Sheren (39:13.880)
I think it's only been used a handful of times max in Afghanistan that I'm aware of.
Kelsi Sheren (39:18.160)
Again, I haven't, I wasn't there from 2009 until 21, but I, I know people that still
Kelsi Sheren (39:24.120)
deployed in that, in those units and I don't know that it was used very often, but the
Kelsi Sheren (39:28.200)
regular rounds, so there's HE, there's loom, so HE is high explosive, there's loom.
Kelsi Sheren (39:33.360)
You shoot that, it explodes in the sky, it lights up the sky for the infantry below and
Kelsi Sheren (39:39.120)
then there's shrapnel rounds that will explode in the sky and then shrapnel just rains down
Kelsi Sheren (39:42.580)
hell on you.
Kelsi Sheren (39:43.580)
HE is what you use normally in my, I'm trying to say this right because I know people squawked
Kelsi Sheren (39:51.040)
at me about some of the stuff on Jocko, so I'm trying to be very accurate.
Kelsi Sheren (39:53.760)
In my experience, we used HE rounds to wipe people off the face of the earth when the
Kelsi Sheren (39:58.280)
infantry needed us.
Lex Fridman (3:00:06.460)
stupidest shit.
Lex Fridman (3:00:07.460)
Can I ask you something?
Lex Fridman (3:00:08.940)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:00:09.940)
Do you think that's because of how you were raised, where you came from?
Lex Fridman (3:00:16.020)
No, no, it was my own person.
Kelsi Sheren (3:00:19.340)
I honestly think it's the biology, the, this, cause I had my parents, I'm very cognizant
Lex Fridman (3:00:27.380)
of had nothing to do with that.
Kelsi Sheren (3:00:30.460)
They, they never understood this little engine I had.
Kelsi Sheren (3:00:33.460)
I just, I always liked just sitting, looking at people and just enjoying how amazing they
Kelsi Sheren (3:00:37.740)
are and just like looking at, like it's, I think it's straight up just biology, whatever
Lex Fridman (3:00:42.500)
the neurochemistry is.
Kelsi Sheren (3:00:44.220)
Like I'm just getting like a good drug from, yeah, I'm getting hits all the time from stupid
Lex Fridman (3:00:50.100)
shit.
Lex Fridman (3:00:51.100)
And it doesn't, and yeah, so that's why I can be, sometimes I'll talk like very self
Kelsi Sheren (3:00:58.180)
critically about myself because that's almost makes me, it makes life more fun and challenges
Kelsi Sheren (3:01:03.420)
stuff and it makes you more productive.
Lex Fridman (3:01:05.180)
But ultimately it's because I'm getting that like good, I'm getting the good stuff all
Kelsi Sheren (3:01:09.140)
the time.
Lex Fridman (3:01:10.140)
I wondered about that.
Kelsi Sheren (3:01:11.140)
I was thinking about that when I listened to you for the first time on, I think when
Lex Fridman (3:01:14.340)
you're on Rogan for the first time, water shouldn't do that.
Kelsi Sheren (3:01:17.380)
Oh, it's not water.
Lex Fridman (3:01:19.180)
You shouldn't trust.
Kelsi Sheren (3:01:20.180)
See, this is the thing with the Russians.
Lex Fridman (3:01:21.180)
It's Dessani.
Kelsi Sheren (3:01:22.180)
It's owned by Coca Cola.
Lex Fridman (3:01:23.180)
Well, no, I had it resealed.
Kelsi Sheren (3:01:26.140)
I mean, I didn't go that far, but now I'm really certain to question what's in this,
Lex Fridman (3:01:30.980)
but that's okay.
Kelsi Sheren (3:01:31.980)
If I offered you tea, you should really be worried.
Lex Fridman (3:01:34.500)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:01:35.500)
Why?
Kelsi Sheren (3:01:36.500)
I mean, that's the, no, that's the, like the more famous way that Russians usually assassinate
Kelsi Sheren (3:01:41.740)
it.
Lex Fridman (3:01:42.740)
They put poison in the tea.
Kelsi Sheren (3:01:43.740)
Cause a lot of Russians drink tea and you know, all right, well, I mean there is a blade
Lex Fridman (3:01:49.420)
right there.
Lex Fridman (3:01:50.420)
So I thought was somebody, um, Andrew Huberman gave that to me.
Lex Fridman (3:01:54.580)
He's also good.
Kelsi Sheren (3:01:55.580)
I don't know if you know him, but he's a cool, I don't know all the people, you know, I'm
Lex Fridman (3:01:58.700)
new.
Kelsi Sheren (3:01:59.700)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (3:02:00.700)
I'm new here, Lex.
Kelsi Sheren (3:02:01.700)
You're going to have to send instructions.
Lex Fridman (3:02:02.700)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (3:02:03.700)
I'm going to have to let my friends say, he says, uh, he's an ex operator and he'll message
Lex Fridman (3:02:06.540)
me once in a while and ask me something and I'll answer back.
Kelsi Sheren (3:02:08.820)
If I answer in the correct way, he'll go candidate meets expectations.
Lex Fridman (3:02:14.060)
I'm like, fuck you.
Kelsi Sheren (3:02:15.340)
I'm not a candidate of anything.
Lex Fridman (3:02:16.780)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (3:02:17.780)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:02:18.780)
But yeah, it's essentially.
Kelsi Sheren (3:02:19.780)
Well, Andrew Huberman is kind of a celebrity.
Lex Fridman (3:02:21.500)
Andrew, you should check her out.
Kelsi Sheren (3:02:23.340)
Uh, you're, you're an interesting person.
Lex Fridman (3:02:25.140)
You guys should connect.
Kelsi Sheren (3:02:26.140)
He's a Stanford neuroscientist was a, I think the number one podcast in the world in health.
Lex Fridman (3:02:32.300)
Uh, he's a, does he have like a, a beard thing going?
Kelsi Sheren (3:02:37.140)
Uh, yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:02:38.140)
I mean, I'm knocking him down to like, does he have a beard?
Kelsi Sheren (3:02:42.500)
I don't, I don't look, I don't look at people's visual appearance, man.
Lex Fridman (3:02:45.300)
No, I don't.
Lex Fridman (3:02:46.300)
Uh, does he have a beard?
Lex Fridman (3:02:47.580)
I think he has a beard.
Kelsi Sheren (3:02:48.580)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:02:49.580)
He's a very handsome gentleman.
Kelsi Sheren (3:02:54.020)
I think I know you're talking about, cause I think I was looking at his stuff this morning.
Lex Fridman (3:02:56.540)
Yeah, exactly.
Kelsi Sheren (3:02:57.540)
No, seriously on Instagram.
Lex Fridman (3:02:58.540)
No, no, no.
Kelsi Sheren (3:02:59.540)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (3:03:00.540)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (3:03:01.540)
I know him.
Lex Fridman (3:03:02.540)
But it's very, very humble, very intelligent.
Kelsi Sheren (3:03:04.260)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:03:05.260)
Probably you would understand, like I'm very kind of poetic and so on.
Kelsi Sheren (3:03:09.180)
He's, he's probably the most like rigorous, um, reference machine of science.
Lex Fridman (3:03:16.660)
Like he's a legit scientist.
Kelsi Sheren (3:03:18.140)
Like he knows every paper and everything has to do with the mind and neuroscience.
Lex Fridman (3:03:22.100)
Like performance.
Kelsi Sheren (3:03:23.100)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:03:24.100)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (3:03:25.100)
He's much more, he's, he's, he's much more actually, and the focus is always on, um,
Lex Fridman (3:03:31.140)
how to help, how that helps people.
Lex Fridman (3:03:34.500)
So like protocols, like, like here's what you need to do to get better sleep.
Lex Fridman (3:03:38.420)
Yes.
Kelsi Sheren (3:03:39.420)
Yes, I know who it is.
Lex Fridman (3:03:40.420)
Here's like a thousand papers.
Kelsi Sheren (3:03:41.420)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:03:42.420)
And he just goes like hammers nonstop.
Kelsi Sheren (3:03:44.260)
I mean, he, um, he spent a week in Austin, he's coming back and spending, uh, a couple
Lex Fridman (3:03:51.700)
of weeks in Austin.
Kelsi Sheren (3:03:52.700)
We just hang out.
Lex Fridman (3:03:53.700)
And it's like, you think that was like a teleprompter or something, like the way he does his podcast.
Kelsi Sheren (3:03:58.420)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (3:03:59.420)
Like in person, he's the same, like, all right, this is, this is intense, but I like it.
Kelsi Sheren (3:04:05.340)
Anyway.
Lex Fridman (3:04:06.340)
Anyway.
Lex Fridman (3:04:07.340)
Uh, why did we bring him up?
Lex Fridman (3:04:08.820)
I don't know.
Kelsi Sheren (3:04:09.820)
Brought up knives.
Lex Fridman (3:04:10.820)
We were talking about.
Kelsi Sheren (3:04:11.820)
He gave it to me.
Lex Fridman (3:04:12.820)
That's right.
Kelsi Sheren (3:04:13.820)
PTSD.
Lex Fridman (3:04:14.820)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:04:15.820)
And then you talk about poison and how you were poisoning me.
Lex Fridman (3:04:16.820)
And I said, knives.
Kelsi Sheren (3:04:17.820)
We're talking about Russians.
Lex Fridman (3:04:18.820)
And then we were kind of talking about the brain and PTSD.
Kelsi Sheren (3:04:21.260)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (3:04:22.260)
I think for, for most people though, the biggest thing when they see somebody who's struggling
Lex Fridman (3:04:27.900)
with PTSD there, their first, you know, reaction is how do I help them?
Kelsi Sheren (3:04:32.020)
Well, often just saying, Hey, I'm here when you're ready to talk and you're going through
Kelsi Sheren (3:04:36.860)
something, whether you want to talk about it right now or not, I'm here.
Lex Fridman (3:04:39.740)
And then keeping a close eye on behaviors.
Kelsi Sheren (3:04:42.620)
When you start to see somebody having, you know, four, five, six beers at night, let's
Lex Fridman (3:04:49.420)
ask why.
Kelsi Sheren (3:04:50.420)
When you see somebody, you can tell they're not sleeping.
Lex Fridman (3:04:52.460)
Hey buddy, you sleeping?
Kelsi Sheren (3:04:53.460)
I just am not sleeping.
Lex Fridman (3:04:54.460)
Instead of just going, Oh, that sucks.
Lex Fridman (3:04:58.260)
Hey, why aren't you sleeping?
Lex Fridman (3:05:00.340)
You having nightmares?
Lex Fridman (3:05:01.340)
Are you, you just have an insomnia?
Lex Fridman (3:05:03.860)
Are you just eating sugar before bed?
Kelsi Sheren (3:05:05.700)
Like care enough about your people to just ask one followup question.
Lex Fridman (3:05:10.700)
Cause often that's really all it takes.
Kelsi Sheren (3:05:12.780)
Cause then somebody goes, somebody cares enough to ask and then they'll just, yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:05:18.060)
Just showing that you care.
Kelsi Sheren (3:05:20.060)
Honestly, grocery store lineup.
Lex Fridman (3:05:22.540)
I'll say, Oh, I like your dress.
Kelsi Sheren (3:05:24.580)
Oh, thank you.
Lex Fridman (3:05:25.580)
And then I'll go, how's your day going?
Kelsi Sheren (3:05:27.060)
They're like, actually it's going all right.
Lex Fridman (3:05:30.380)
It's not as great as I thought it would be today, but I'm doing okay.
Lex Fridman (3:05:33.100)
But like they'll give you a, instead of good you, instead of just giving you this fake,
Lex Fridman (3:05:36.660)
false reaction.
Kelsi Sheren (3:05:37.660)
If you just show any effort in somebody that you care at all about someone's wellbeing,
Lex Fridman (3:05:44.100)
you'd be amazed.
Kelsi Sheren (3:05:45.100)
Amazed.
Lex Fridman (3:05:46.100)
And some of that is just energy.
Kelsi Sheren (3:05:49.100)
The reason honestly I moved to Austin is some lady at a Walmart said, honey, you look handsome
Lex Fridman (3:05:54.980)
in that suit.
Lex Fridman (3:05:55.980)
But the care that she put in that, she just looked at me and it wasn't like hitting at
Lex Fridman (3:06:01.700)
me or something.
Kelsi Sheren (3:06:02.700)
She was like, the love.
Lex Fridman (3:06:03.700)
Just love.
Kelsi Sheren (3:06:04.700)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:06:05.700)
And I was like, Oh, okay.
Kelsi Sheren (3:06:06.700)
I'm moving here.
Lex Fridman (3:06:07.700)
I guess.
Kelsi Sheren (3:06:08.700)
There was a, that's so funny you said that.
Lex Fridman (3:06:09.700)
Cause I told my, I told my husband this happened and it was, it threw me off.
Kelsi Sheren (3:06:13.720)
There was an older lady at a store and this was right after we, we got a brief period
Lex Fridman (3:06:18.700)
of no masks in Canada.
Kelsi Sheren (3:06:20.500)
Just like a brief.
Lex Fridman (3:06:21.500)
It's like five minutes.
Kelsi Sheren (3:06:22.500)
Oh yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:06:23.500)
It was not even that.
Lex Fridman (3:06:24.500)
And I, I had come from like an interview or something.
Lex Fridman (3:06:26.760)
So I had actually had makeup on that day and I had my hat and I was, you know, just at
Kelsi Sheren (3:06:30.140)
the grocery store.
Kelsi Sheren (3:06:31.200)
She walked up to me and she got real close and I didn't know what was happening.
Lex Fridman (3:06:34.260)
And then she got closer and then she just grabbed my arm like this.
Lex Fridman (3:06:37.880)
She goes, I love that hat on you.
Lex Fridman (3:06:40.600)
And I looked at her and I was like, she touched me during a pandemic and she's old.
Lex Fridman (3:06:43.860)
Oh my God, I love you too.
Kelsi Sheren (3:06:45.180)
Thank you so much.
Lex Fridman (3:06:46.180)
I said, you're so amazing.
Lex Fridman (3:06:47.180)
And I just, and I just sparked a conversation.
Lex Fridman (3:06:49.100)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (3:06:50.100)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:06:51.100)
That's amazing.
Kelsi Sheren (3:06:52.100)
Doesn't take much.
Lex Fridman (3:06:53.100)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (3:06:54.100)
That little moment of genuine care.
Kelsi Sheren (3:06:55.100)
Maybe you can tell me actually the, um, the journey you took with ayahuasca, like what
Kelsi Sheren (3:07:01.780)
that's such a fascinating journey.
Lex Fridman (3:07:03.040)
So like, uh, letting your mind go to different places in order to rediscover itself, like,
Lex Fridman (3:07:08.740)
like, what is it like a rocket ship to somewhere else so you can land in a better place?
Lex Fridman (3:07:13.580)
Here, how about I show you something that'll help your brain.
Kelsi Sheren (3:07:16.740)
Yes.
Kelsi Sheren (3:07:17.740)
This is not for you to lift up either and show on the camera because there's leaves
Kelsi Sheren (3:07:21.100)
in it.
Lex Fridman (3:07:22.100)
Like there's leaves in some pages.
Lex Fridman (3:07:23.100)
So just don't dump it out cause it'll go all fucking everywhere.
Lex Fridman (3:07:25.980)
Got it.
Kelsi Sheren (3:07:26.980)
Got it.
Lex Fridman (3:07:27.980)
Instructions.
Kelsi Sheren (3:07:28.980)
I like this.
Lex Fridman (3:07:29.980)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (3:07:30.980)
Well, you feel like you need them.
Kelsi Sheren (3:07:31.980)
Um, ayahuasca is a beautiful psychedelic that we have been so blessed to have on this earth
Kelsi Sheren (3:07:39.500)
that we have so underutilized and could be, I don't want to say saving humanity, but just
Kelsi Sheren (3:07:45.740)
you ever hear that saying, if you could just give everyone mushrooms one time, the world
Kelsi Sheren (3:07:48.700)
would be a better place.
Lex Fridman (3:07:50.300)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (3:07:51.300)
So psilocybin is I use for microdosing, uh, for depression.
Lex Fridman (3:07:57.580)
I did ayahuasca in January of this year.
Kelsi Sheren (3:08:00.580)
Um, and I've at that point, that was the last time I was on a pharmaceutical drug.
Lex Fridman (3:08:06.380)
I've been off everything ever since 10 different ones.
Lex Fridman (3:08:09.940)
So if you backtrack a little bit, just to, so you'll understand my doctor gave me the
Lex Fridman (3:08:14.540)
opportunity, Dr. Greg Passi.
Kelsi Sheren (3:08:17.740)
He is a veteran himself, served in Bosnia and Rwanda.
Lex Fridman (3:08:20.980)
He's a medic.
Kelsi Sheren (3:08:21.980)
He's a Colonel.
Kelsi Sheren (3:08:22.980)
I think Colonel Lieutenant, he's going to fucking punch me right in the face for that.
Kelsi Sheren (3:08:25.280)
He's high up officer.
Lex Fridman (3:08:26.780)
Um, he is one of my saviors.
Kelsi Sheren (3:08:29.380)
He's like my old, I call him my old man.
Lex Fridman (3:08:31.220)
He's my favorite and, um, rides a Harley, like that kind of guy.
Kelsi Sheren (3:08:35.340)
Nice.
Lex Fridman (3:08:36.340)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (3:08:37.340)
And, um, he said, you know, Kels, this is, I just don't, I was hitting a wall.
Lex Fridman (3:08:41.300)
I wasn't getting any better.
Lex Fridman (3:08:42.300)
And he goes, what, how do you feel about cannabis?
Lex Fridman (3:08:45.140)
And I was like, I don't feel good about it because family histories or my parents always
Kelsi Sheren (3:08:51.380)
told me if I smoked weed, you know, it's just this, this perception because I just want
Lex Fridman (3:08:55.580)
you to try it.
Lex Fridman (3:08:56.700)
Just would it, would you be willing to try it?
Lex Fridman (3:08:58.420)
So I was like, okay, so I was willing to try it.
Kelsi Sheren (3:09:01.580)
Then I started going to these groups called Women Grow and, um, learning about it.
Lex Fridman (3:09:06.420)
And then I realized, oh, I'm starting to sleep a little bit.
Kelsi Sheren (3:09:12.620)
I don't feel groggy in the morning.
Lex Fridman (3:09:14.780)
I don't feel like a bag of shit.
Lex Fridman (3:09:16.620)
And I also want to have a baby one day and I can't have all this stuff in my system.
Lex Fridman (3:09:21.060)
So I started using cannabis and then I started using it as a main medication and I'd been
Kelsi Sheren (3:09:27.700)
using it now since 2014, got married, 2015, 2015, 2015 I started using it.
Lex Fridman (3:09:38.980)
And then I've been using it ever since.
Lex Fridman (3:09:41.060)
And that was the way I got off of all the pharmaceutical drugs was keeping cannabis
Kelsi Sheren (3:09:46.460)
the constant, finding the right strains for me, and then slowly with the doctor's advice
Lex Fridman (3:09:51.700)
and under supervision going off of those medications.
Lex Fridman (3:09:56.380)
Back to January of 2021, I had hit a really bad spell last year.
Kelsi Sheren (3:10:01.900)
Um, and the year before it was a really big struggle.
Kelsi Sheren (3:10:04.660)
Uh, I almost lost my company last year due to COVID just like many, many millions of
Kelsi Sheren (3:10:09.380)
people did.
Kelsi Sheren (3:10:10.860)
Um, and instead of me just laying down and taking it, I pivoted really quickly and called
Lex Fridman (3:10:17.740)
the factory and said, do you guys make masks?
Lex Fridman (3:10:19.380)
They're like, yeah, we're making masks.
Kelsi Sheren (3:10:21.100)
I was like, I'm going to call the Canadian government.
Kelsi Sheren (3:10:23.980)
I'm going to get my medical license and I'm going to try to sell the masks and see if
Kelsi Sheren (3:10:27.620)
we can do that.
Lex Fridman (3:10:28.620)
And so we did that.
Lex Fridman (3:10:29.620)
And so we did 200,000 masks for Ontario hospitals, um, which ironically went to my entire community
Lex Fridman (3:10:37.860)
I was born and raised in.
Lex Fridman (3:10:39.860)
So it was really weird.
Lex Fridman (3:10:41.740)
And that kept us afloat long enough.
Kelsi Sheren (3:10:43.740)
Um, we lost 200 retail locations that I all single handedly spent five years going like
Lex Fridman (3:10:49.260)
door to door getting myself.
Kelsi Sheren (3:10:50.740)
Um,
Lex Fridman (3:10:51.740)
and we should say this is brass and unity, jewelry,
Kelsi Sheren (3:10:54.940)
the jewelry and sunglass company.
Lex Fridman (3:10:57.220)
And um, I started,
Kelsi Sheren (3:10:58.220)
speaking of which,
Lex Fridman (3:10:59.220)
looks like a cereal.
Kelsi Sheren (3:11:02.220)
I mean, you do look good in them.
Lex Fridman (3:11:05.020)
I won't lie to you.
Kelsi Sheren (3:11:06.020)
Thank you.
Lex Fridman (3:11:07.020)
Well, okay.
Kelsi Sheren (3:11:08.020)
We'll call them the Lex.
Lex Fridman (3:11:09.020)
That's those are now called the Lex.
Kelsi Sheren (3:11:10.020)
Fuck the gunner.
Lex Fridman (3:11:11.020)
They're the Lex.
Kelsi Sheren (3:11:12.020)
I like it.
Lex Fridman (3:11:13.020)
The Lex.
Kelsi Sheren (3:11:14.020)
I'm jumping around here, but just bear with me.
Lex Fridman (3:11:15.020)
I, I started, my doctor suggested art therapy.
Kelsi Sheren (3:11:16.020)
Dr. Patsy did.
Lex Fridman (3:11:17.220)
And that's really how the company started.
Kelsi Sheren (3:11:19.140)
I bought beads and a pipe cutter and a hammer and a drill and I fucked up our kitchen table
Lex Fridman (3:11:23.140)
and I taught myself how to put jewelry cause my husband was like, you can do it.
Kelsi Sheren (3:11:26.860)
Go for it.
Lex Fridman (3:11:27.860)
So I was like, okay, he says I can believes in me, so I guess I can do it.
Kelsi Sheren (3:11:31.020)
No idea what I'm doing.
Lex Fridman (3:11:32.980)
And then got to this point, um, you know, where COVID hit and people lost companies
Lex Fridman (3:11:38.060)
and we pivoted and we did what we could.
Lex Fridman (3:11:40.900)
And then I really started to go downhill psychologically.
Kelsi Sheren (3:11:45.420)
I've found purpose again with this company.
Lex Fridman (3:11:49.020)
I found a way to help again.
Kelsi Sheren (3:11:51.260)
I found myself again.
Lex Fridman (3:11:54.700)
And then that was in danger of being gone again.
Lex Fridman (3:11:58.560)
So the company is 2015.
Kelsi Sheren (3:12:01.140)
We started, I started building jewelry in 2015 under like a just, it was called her
Kelsi Sheren (3:12:06.300)
wearables and it was really small and it was just, I was just trying to make stuff.
Lex Fridman (3:12:11.500)
It wasn't supposed to be a company.
Lex Fridman (3:12:13.220)
And you were on a ton of medication throughout this whole process.
Lex Fridman (3:12:17.940)
And my mom being the tenacious truck driver she is, she was driving for Kevin Hart's what
Kelsi Sheren (3:12:23.540)
now tour.
Lex Fridman (3:12:25.140)
And so she got, she just harassed them was like, you need to meet my daughter.
Kelsi Sheren (3:12:29.540)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:12:30.540)
I saw the picture of you and Kevin Hart, that's cool.
Lex Fridman (3:12:32.540)
But he just gave me a good piece of advice.
Kelsi Sheren (3:12:33.940)
Hey, if you're going to make this something, you can't really, if you want it to be for
Kelsi Sheren (3:12:36.980)
everyone, you can't call it her wearables.
Lex Fridman (3:12:38.460)
I was like, cool.
Lex Fridman (3:12:39.900)
And then we drove home that night and then he tweeted it out to people to 24 million
Lex Fridman (3:12:44.220)
people.
Lex Fridman (3:12:45.220)
And he was like, who is now?
Lex Fridman (3:12:47.980)
And that was a giant deal.
Lex Fridman (3:12:49.620)
And then my husband kind of looked at me and being, he's so fucking brilliant.
Lex Fridman (3:12:52.500)
He looked at me and goes, all right, yeah, we got to come up with a rename.
Kelsi Sheren (3:12:55.040)
Let me start thinking.
Lex Fridman (3:12:56.040)
Let me start brainstorming.
Lex Fridman (3:12:57.040)
Like, let's make, you want to make this real?
Lex Fridman (3:12:58.340)
Let's make this real.
Lex Fridman (3:12:59.340)
And so we did.
Lex Fridman (3:13:01.200)
And he was like, what do you think about like, we were doing like brass collective co, brass
Kelsi Sheren (3:13:04.580)
this, but I just knew I wanted brass in the name.
Lex Fridman (3:13:07.420)
And then he's like, what about brass and unity?
Kelsi Sheren (3:13:08.560)
You're trying to like unify people.
Lex Fridman (3:13:09.780)
Like why wouldn't you do that?
Kelsi Sheren (3:13:10.780)
I'm like, fucking million horses came up with it.
Lex Fridman (3:13:13.460)
Like everything else.
Kelsi Sheren (3:13:14.460)
That's a great name.
Lex Fridman (3:13:15.460)
Well, he's a brilliant person.
Kelsi Sheren (3:13:16.460)
It's annoying.
Lex Fridman (3:13:17.460)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:13:18.460)
So the idea of losing this thing that we had just built and just got me kind of functioning
Lex Fridman (3:13:22.220)
with was devastating.
Lex Fridman (3:13:24.860)
So I got this opportunity given to me by Griff, Combat Flip Flops.
Kelsi Sheren (3:13:29.780)
Um, again, Brady, my husband was like, Hey, you should get sponsors for your podcast.
Lex Fridman (3:13:34.340)
Hey, have you heard of this company, Combat Flip Flops?
Lex Fridman (3:13:37.020)
Remember we watched them on Shark Tank.
Lex Fridman (3:13:38.900)
And then I reached out, he emailed me back.
Lex Fridman (3:13:40.980)
He's like, yeah, we go to together like peanut butter and jelly are companies.
Kelsi Sheren (3:13:43.860)
That sounds great.
Lex Fridman (3:13:45.460)
And then I was like, Hey, also, like, do you think one of your owners would want to come
Lex Fridman (3:13:49.700)
on the podcast?
Lex Fridman (3:13:50.820)
Just like tossing it out there kind of like I did with you.
Lex Fridman (3:13:54.340)
And he was like, yeah, I'd love to come on.
Lex Fridman (3:13:56.420)
And I was like, oh my God.
Lex Fridman (3:13:59.060)
And he came on the podcast and it went great.
Lex Fridman (3:14:01.140)
And then at the end of it, we stopped recording and he just kind of did this thing.
Kelsi Sheren (3:14:04.620)
He does this.
Lex Fridman (3:14:05.620)
Just like leans in real close, looks into your soul and goes, how you doing?
Lex Fridman (3:14:11.020)
And they're like, great.
Lex Fridman (3:14:12.020)
And he's like, how you really doing?
Lex Fridman (3:14:14.020)
And I'm like, I'm horrible.
Lex Fridman (3:14:16.020)
I've done everything.
Lex Fridman (3:14:18.020)
And just this whole, just like waterworks happen and he goes, listen, have you ever
Lex Fridman (3:14:22.980)
heard of Ayahuasca?
Lex Fridman (3:14:23.980)
And I was like, yeah, like in movies and like psychedelics in the seventies, you know, and
Lex Fridman (3:14:29.260)
he's like, no, no, no, no, no.
Kelsi Sheren (3:14:30.500)
Let's like have a talk.
Lex Fridman (3:14:31.500)
And he goes, I've got an opportunity for a spot.
Kelsi Sheren (3:14:34.020)
I'm going with this charity called Heroic Hearts.
Lex Fridman (3:14:37.140)
They have spaces in UK, Canada and the United States.
Kelsi Sheren (3:14:41.700)
They're owned by an army ranger named Jesse Gould.
Lex Fridman (3:14:44.100)
You know, they're really trying to help vets.
Lex Fridman (3:14:47.900)
And this has worked.
Lex Fridman (3:14:48.900)
Would you want to come?
Lex Fridman (3:14:49.900)
And before he even said, like, would you, before I even got like an invite, I was like,
Lex Fridman (3:14:53.780)
can I come?
Lex Fridman (3:14:54.780)
When can I, when, when, when do we, when do we go?
Lex Fridman (3:14:57.900)
And he's like, oh, it's in like three weeks.
Kelsi Sheren (3:14:59.940)
You can't be on any SSRIs.
Lex Fridman (3:15:02.460)
If you're on any, you're going to have to wean off.
Lex Fridman (3:15:04.060)
And at the time I was on my last one.
Lex Fridman (3:15:06.620)
And so I was like, I called my doctor and I was like, listen.
Lex Fridman (3:15:10.340)
And he was like, what?
Lex Fridman (3:15:11.820)
And I was like, guess what I'm about to do?
Lex Fridman (3:15:13.700)
And he's like, I'm like going to go do ayahuasca.
Lex Fridman (3:15:16.340)
And he goes, you're going to, he does this thing where he just goes, all right.
Kelsi Sheren (3:15:23.420)
Because he knows he's not going to win.
Lex Fridman (3:15:24.900)
He knows I'll just fight him on it.
Kelsi Sheren (3:15:26.300)
That's just called that, like the, the Jocko reset because he does a.
Lex Fridman (3:15:30.900)
Pretty much.
Kelsi Sheren (3:15:31.900)
Yeah, exactly.
Lex Fridman (3:15:32.900)
And he goes, I said, but here's the kicker.
Kelsi Sheren (3:15:35.260)
I have to go off of this medication.
Lex Fridman (3:15:36.620)
And he goes, well, you know, we're supposed to do that in the summer months when the depression's
Kelsi Sheren (3:15:40.580)
not like bringing, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Lex Fridman (3:15:42.580)
Listen, I hear you, but I'm doing it.
Kelsi Sheren (3:15:46.020)
Whether you want me to or not.
Lex Fridman (3:15:47.020)
So I'm letting you know, Hey, this is going to happen.
Lex Fridman (3:15:50.020)
And he's like, okay, just try to do it properly.
Lex Fridman (3:15:51.860)
I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (3:15:52.860)
I know the drill.
Lex Fridman (3:15:53.860)
I know the drill, whatever, whatever.
Kelsi Sheren (3:15:54.860)
I went to school to be a paramedic.
Lex Fridman (3:15:55.860)
I know the drill.
Kelsi Sheren (3:15:56.860)
I'll go off of it properly.
Lex Fridman (3:15:57.860)
So I can like drop that within a week that stuff was, I was done taking it.
Lex Fridman (3:16:02.180)
And I was going through like the world's worst just withdrawals.
Kelsi Sheren (3:16:06.260)
It was like you were at a rock concert and your head was banging up and down, but you
Kelsi Sheren (3:16:10.860)
were sitting perfectly still.
Lex Fridman (3:16:13.180)
It was horrible.
Lex Fridman (3:16:14.180)
But you had like a thing to look forward to with the sidewall.
Kelsi Sheren (3:16:17.740)
I had a light at the end of the tunnel and I knew if I got to the light was the worst
Kelsi Sheren (3:16:22.940)
that's going to happen.
Lex Fridman (3:16:23.940)
Just get to the light.
Lex Fridman (3:16:24.940)
But at that point, like I, again, I had a son, I had a husband, I had a great company,
Lex Fridman (3:16:29.500)
I have a great house, I have a nice car, I have everything.
Lex Fridman (3:16:33.460)
Why did I want to die every minute of the day?
Lex Fridman (3:16:36.780)
I was at that point again.
Lex Fridman (3:16:38.820)
And I'm like, this has got it, something's got to give.
Lex Fridman (3:16:41.340)
And so I went and I got there and she is the most intense, beautiful, divine deity or entity
Kelsi Sheren (3:17:02.580)
or visualization, whatever you want to deem ayahuasca as, mama ayahuasca is real.
Lex Fridman (3:17:11.620)
And she takes no prisoners.
Kelsi Sheren (3:17:15.060)
She shows you exactly what you need to see to help yourself, but she does not discriminate
Lex Fridman (3:17:23.500)
against whether you're ready or not.
Kelsi Sheren (3:17:26.340)
If you've ingested it, she's coming for you.
Lex Fridman (3:17:30.640)
She's going to be either gentle or she's going to beat your ass.
Lex Fridman (3:17:34.600)
And sometimes that's what you need, but she does it in a way that is profound.
Lex Fridman (3:17:43.220)
So what were some memorable, profound moments for you?
Lex Fridman (3:17:46.940)
What what are the places it took you, these people had you meet?
Kelsi Sheren (3:17:52.180)
For the first time, I got to be in a group of people who didn't judge me or question
Kelsi Sheren (3:17:58.180)
my service.
Lex Fridman (3:17:59.360)
They just respect me.
Kelsi Sheren (3:18:01.420)
That was number one.
Lex Fridman (3:18:03.060)
So that group I lost, I just found again.
Kelsi Sheren (3:18:09.240)
Big shocker, I was the only woman there again.
Lex Fridman (3:18:12.420)
Seems to be the thing for me.
Lex Fridman (3:18:16.020)
And so I was surrounded by all these special operators.
Lex Fridman (3:18:18.660)
These aren't like normal soldiers.
Kelsi Sheren (3:18:20.020)
These guys that I'm with are like, Bronze Star, fucking Purple Heart, just the coolest
Lex Fridman (3:18:28.220)
people.
Kelsi Sheren (3:18:29.820)
People I've always wanted to be like, that's my buddy.
Kelsi Sheren (3:18:32.200)
Now I can be like, those are my buddies, like those motherfuckers will go to bat for me.
Kelsi Sheren (3:18:36.640)
They will bend over backwards.
Lex Fridman (3:18:38.140)
They will exfil me out of anywhere.
Kelsi Sheren (3:18:40.060)
They will take a bullet for me.
Lex Fridman (3:18:42.700)
And these guys welcomed me in in a way I didn't I didn't expect.
Lex Fridman (3:18:45.880)
So that hit me weird right off the get.
Lex Fridman (3:18:48.160)
I was nervous.
Lex Fridman (3:18:49.160)
And now I was just felt that home for a minute.
Lex Fridman (3:18:52.160)
And then when I stepped into ceremony, the first night because you do you do three nights
Kelsi Sheren (3:18:59.600)
over like over like Friday, Saturday, Sunday, the first night, I was so nervous and so anxious
Kelsi Sheren (3:19:06.560)
because you go up in ceremony and you're the shamans come in and they cleanse themselves
Lex Fridman (3:19:12.020)
and then you get served the ayah individually, you go up, they give it to you, you can take
Lex Fridman (3:19:18.300)
your time and pray, you can do whatever you want, then you drink it.
Kelsi Sheren (3:19:21.420)
I was so just like, I got back to my mat and I sat there and I was like trying to keep
Lex Fridman (3:19:29.160)
it in.
Lex Fridman (3:19:30.160)
But I could feel that like heat come from my toes all the way up and you're like your
Lex Fridman (3:19:34.000)
mouth starts to water.
Kelsi Sheren (3:19:35.000)
I'm gonna throw up, I'm gonna throw up, I'm gonna throw up.
Lex Fridman (3:19:37.200)
And I looked over to Griff and I looked at Bishop and I was like, okay, and you can't
Kelsi Sheren (3:19:45.560)
talk or anything.
Lex Fridman (3:19:47.600)
So I like my buddy, we call him the Viking, a soul Viking.
Kelsi Sheren (3:19:52.220)
He looks like a Viking, his head's tattooed, he's been on the show.
Lex Fridman (3:19:57.400)
He's so cool.
Kelsi Sheren (3:19:58.800)
He's sitting directly across like you and I and he can see me, he's looking at me and
Kelsi Sheren (3:20:01.760)
I'm throwing up and I do it about three times and then the last time he just saw me and
Kelsi Sheren (3:20:08.720)
I couldn't do it, I threw it up.
Lex Fridman (3:20:12.120)
And so I like to think that was her way of easing me in so I didn't get like a full punch
Kelsi Sheren (3:20:17.900)
to the face.
Lex Fridman (3:20:18.900)
But I gotta, let me take your hand and show you what I'm gonna show you.
Kelsi Sheren (3:20:22.480)
We're gonna make you better, we're gonna take the pain away.
Lex Fridman (3:20:25.120)
Aren't you supposed to eventually throw up no matter what?
Kelsi Sheren (3:20:27.760)
It's not supposed to, some people don't.
Lex Fridman (3:20:29.600)
You purge.
Kelsi Sheren (3:20:30.600)
Yeah, if something's happening, you're going through something, yeah, you purge.
Lex Fridman (3:20:33.560)
But it doesn't have to happen.
Lex Fridman (3:20:34.840)
But this, I mean, within like the first 20 minutes, no.
Kelsi Sheren (3:20:37.960)
It just takes like, you gotta sit and meditate for, or sit still basically and meditate
Kelsi Sheren (3:20:42.400)
in the pitch black for about 45 minutes before the effects even, before you even feel her.
Lex Fridman (3:20:48.260)
So it's very.
Lex Fridman (3:20:50.080)
So here she figured out the right dose you need, maybe.
Lex Fridman (3:20:52.960)
Well because I did the same dose as everyone else.
Kelsi Sheren (3:20:55.000)
I think it was 20 mils, which doesn't seem like a lot, but when you've never done hiatus.
Lex Fridman (3:21:01.760)
Oh my god.
Lex Fridman (3:21:03.760)
So I felt like such a bitch.
Lex Fridman (3:21:06.960)
God, I felt like such a bitch.
Kelsi Sheren (3:21:09.040)
Okay, that was the thought going through your mind.
Lex Fridman (3:21:11.440)
Oh, you just fucked it all up.
Kelsi Sheren (3:21:13.160)
You ruined it.
Lex Fridman (3:21:14.160)
You ruined this again.
Lex Fridman (3:21:15.160)
You couldn't do this right?
Lex Fridman (3:21:16.640)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:21:17.640)
And so at that point, we went through the meditation part and the shamans were, they
Lex Fridman (3:21:24.280)
literally sing for like six hours straight.
Lex Fridman (3:21:26.600)
So you sit there, you take it and then there's just what you're quietly listening to them.
Kelsi Sheren (3:21:31.400)
Meditate and you wait and you wait and you're in pitch black, like can't see this far in
Kelsi Sheren (3:21:35.840)
front of your face.
Lex Fridman (3:21:37.560)
And you have a little puke bucket and then you have a little light that has a red filter
Kelsi Sheren (3:21:41.680)
on it.
Kelsi Sheren (3:21:42.680)
You have to get up to go to the bathroom to get out of the yurt and you use that so you
Kelsi Sheren (3:21:44.920)
don't turn lights on.
Lex Fridman (3:21:47.320)
And me, I brought like what?
Kelsi Sheren (3:21:49.680)
No, it's just a cool visual of just a puke bucket and a little light for the, like I
Kelsi Sheren (3:21:55.200)
can imagine these like little lights going every once in a while and then the rest is
Kelsi Sheren (3:21:58.400)
just in darkness meditating with this singing.
Lex Fridman (3:22:03.560)
It's so beautiful.
Kelsi Sheren (3:22:04.560)
It's cool.
Lex Fridman (3:22:05.560)
I would love to do that sometime.
Kelsi Sheren (3:22:06.560)
Because trust me, you would, I wouldn't offer if it wasn't the group I would trust.
Lex Fridman (3:22:12.120)
Yeah that's in, you had a very interesting group.
Lex Fridman (3:22:14.520)
So it's the Heroic Hearts people.
Lex Fridman (3:22:16.760)
Yeah, Heroic Hearts.
Lex Fridman (3:22:17.760)
So they, yeah, this is my, Jesse gave us all these journals.
Lex Fridman (3:22:20.560)
They're like, you're going to want these.
Lex Fridman (3:22:22.380)
So he gave us all these journals and now this is like my Bible, like my work, my everything
Lex Fridman (3:22:26.960)
goes in this with me everywhere.
Kelsi Sheren (3:22:28.840)
It's just this like silent reminder for me.
Lex Fridman (3:22:31.440)
And so Heroic Hearts does fantastic work.
Kelsi Sheren (3:22:34.960)
I'll get into them after.
Lex Fridman (3:22:37.120)
The thing with this group is there's such care.
Kelsi Sheren (3:22:44.400)
It's not like go do AYA and like you're done.
Kelsi Sheren (3:22:46.680)
There's like integration coaches and there's like doctors and there's like people to make
Kelsi Sheren (3:22:50.240)
sure that you're doing the work because AYA is just the, is just the gate.
Lex Fridman (3:22:55.360)
Now you have to take it and you have to implement it into your life.
Kelsi Sheren (3:22:59.800)
People don't do that though.
Lex Fridman (3:23:00.800)
Did you do like integration?
Lex Fridman (3:23:02.360)
Did you do conversations with somebody?
Kelsi Sheren (3:23:04.480)
Did you talk to, like, is there a process to, because similar with psilocybin you mentioned,
Kelsi Sheren (3:23:11.960)
as I understand, it's exceptionally beneficial for when you also do like talk therapy.
Kelsi Sheren (3:23:16.720)
Like you couple that with the integration in some form where you talk through your experience
Lex Fridman (3:23:21.520)
and you talk through different things.
Kelsi Sheren (3:23:23.320)
Like that seems to be a really, you know, I need to do that more with basically every
Kelsi Sheren (3:23:27.960)
substance I take.
Kelsi Sheren (3:23:28.960)
Like if I get, which I have been every once in a while known to do, a bit of vodka or
Kelsi Sheren (3:23:33.240)
whiskey or whatever, like do integration the next day.
Lex Fridman (3:23:37.800)
What did you learn?
Lex Fridman (3:23:38.800)
What did you get from that?
Lex Fridman (3:23:39.800)
What did you get?
Kelsi Sheren (3:23:40.800)
Because you learn a lot, but you sometimes kind of just move on and you celebrate that
Lex Fridman (3:23:43.400)
that happened, but like really kind of think through it.
Kelsi Sheren (3:23:46.240)
Write it down.
Lex Fridman (3:23:47.240)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (3:23:48.240)
It's important because that's what this was.
Lex Fridman (3:23:50.080)
So the first night, I'll give like a very, because trust me, we could spend a whole podcast
Kelsi Sheren (3:23:55.200)
on both of the, all three of those nights, but the first night, the biggest thing that
Lex Fridman (3:23:58.920)
happened for me is I got to see my daughter, which was my first baby.
Lex Fridman (3:24:04.000)
And so people say, well, you know, blah, blah, blah.
Lex Fridman (3:24:07.360)
Fuck you.
Kelsi Sheren (3:24:08.360)
That was my daughter.
Lex Fridman (3:24:09.360)
And I'm very aware it was, I'm very conscious that it was.
Lex Fridman (3:24:12.880)
And at that point, she just eased me in enough to let me know and showed me enough that this
Lex Fridman (3:24:19.360)
wasn't it.
Kelsi Sheren (3:24:20.600)
This wasn't the end all be all.
Kelsi Sheren (3:24:23.680)
Where you are right now on this plane, on this dimension, in this life, this is, this
Kelsi Sheren (3:24:28.760)
is a blip and it is, it is so minuscule to the big picture.
Lex Fridman (3:24:34.720)
And so she really did that by, she showed me just a black and then like a crack.
Lex Fridman (3:24:40.280)
And then these vibrant colors that I can't describe because there aren't words, Alex
Lex Fridman (3:24:44.360)
Gray does really great art.
Lex Fridman (3:24:48.040)
And that is like been the closest thing I've been able to find colors.
Lex Fridman (3:24:51.480)
He's a famous guy who does ayahuasca and he's an artist.
Kelsi Sheren (3:24:56.720)
I think he's got stuff in New York as well.
Lex Fridman (3:24:59.240)
But she just, she eased me in and gave me some relief and showed me enough that I could
Kelsi Sheren (3:25:07.600)
go, I could wake up the next day and not want to die the next day.
Lex Fridman (3:25:12.960)
And so what Heroic Heart said, because they gave us all these journals, they're like,
Kelsi Sheren (3:25:16.360)
you know, the next day you kind of wake up and you, you do a meet, like a meeting.
Lex Fridman (3:25:23.520)
You do like a circle.
Kelsi Sheren (3:25:24.520)
You just sit in a room and talk about what just happened the night before.
Kelsi Sheren (3:25:27.960)
People are crying and people are quiet and you just listen and that's what you do.
Lex Fridman (3:25:32.680)
And then you write on your free time.
Lex Fridman (3:25:35.080)
So after that, it's like up to you what you want to do.
Lex Fridman (3:25:37.320)
Do you want to just go walk in the woods?
Lex Fridman (3:25:38.840)
Well, I chose to go find a fence post and lie on it for an hour.
Kelsi Sheren (3:25:43.400)
I'm not kidding.
Kelsi Sheren (3:25:44.400)
I lied there and stared up at these two eagles that were just in like the, I'll tell you
Kelsi Sheren (3:25:48.120)
where we were after and you'll be like, oh, okay, I get it.
Lex Fridman (3:25:50.960)
And then I found a forest and I just walked up with my book and I just lied there for
Kelsi Sheren (3:25:59.400)
hours.
Lex Fridman (3:26:01.920)
And then she all of a sudden started giving me what you call your downloads.
Lex Fridman (3:26:05.320)
So the stuff you learn, the stuff that you were all of a sudden you're remembering and
Lex Fridman (3:26:09.240)
these messages that come through.
Lex Fridman (3:26:11.040)
And that's what this is.
Lex Fridman (3:26:13.360)
What kind of things are we talking about?
Lex Fridman (3:26:17.580)
So my biggest thing that she tried to reiterate to me at the beginning of that first night
Lex Fridman (3:26:21.920)
was that I don't breathe.
Kelsi Sheren (3:26:24.760)
I just, I don't, I don't breathe.
Lex Fridman (3:26:30.920)
I don't fucking breathe at all.
Kelsi Sheren (3:26:32.840)
I just, one thing to the next thing, the next thing, the next thing, the next thing just
Lex Fridman (3:26:35.600)
to survive.
Kelsi Sheren (3:26:36.600)
I don't take a minute and breathe.
Lex Fridman (3:26:39.120)
And so she made, when I say she and I say it because it's hard for people to understand,
Lex Fridman (3:26:43.220)
but I showed this to my husband, I showed it to my doctors and they're like, bitch, that's
Lex Fridman (3:26:47.120)
not you.
Kelsi Sheren (3:26:48.120)
You don't write like that.
Lex Fridman (3:26:49.120)
You don't talk like that.
Lex Fridman (3:26:50.120)
So like you can flip through it, but it was like, I'll just give, I'll just let Lex read
Lex Fridman (3:26:57.560)
for a second and just, I'll just do here.
Kelsi Sheren (3:26:59.240)
Let me do, I'll do an ad for heroic hearts.
Lex Fridman (3:27:01.160)
Heroic hearts.
Kelsi Sheren (3:27:02.160)
Here, I'll get my papers while you read.
Lex Fridman (3:27:04.800)
Connect to her, listen to her, open to her.
Lex Fridman (3:27:07.240)
Do you mind if I read some of these?
Lex Fridman (3:27:08.360)
You can read some of it.
Kelsi Sheren (3:27:09.360)
Yep.
Lex Fridman (3:27:10.360)
Go right ahead.
Kelsi Sheren (3:27:11.360)
The dark has lifted.
Lex Fridman (3:27:13.360)
Judge my spelling and I'll punch you right in the face.
Lex Fridman (3:27:16.760)
So there's like, it's very sporadic, sporadically written.
Lex Fridman (3:27:22.640)
It's okay to be still.
Kelsi Sheren (3:27:24.240)
It's okay to be quiet.
Lex Fridman (3:27:26.040)
This is good.
Kelsi Sheren (3:27:28.480)
Like what, and these are over a stretch of, that was the first, the first couple of pages
Lex Fridman (3:27:34.320)
were from the first night.
Kelsi Sheren (3:27:36.480)
This was just that weekend.
Lex Fridman (3:27:37.480)
And you're just there laying looking at the Eagles.
Kelsi Sheren (3:27:40.600)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (3:27:41.600)
With a pen, just frantic as well, Lex, not like writing where you're like, Oh, I'm just
Kelsi Sheren (3:27:46.000)
writing.
Lex Fridman (3:27:47.000)
It's like, I had to get it down or I was going to lose it.
Kelsi Sheren (3:27:52.120)
You are warrior.
Lex Fridman (3:27:54.520)
You are power.
Kelsi Sheren (3:27:56.360)
You can choose now, breathe now, be now, be present, be warrior, be strength, breathe,
Lex Fridman (3:28:11.400)
be the strength.
Kelsi Sheren (3:28:12.400)
You are the strength.
Lex Fridman (3:28:15.000)
There's some soul searching going on here.
Kelsi Sheren (3:28:17.000)
This is incredible.
Lex Fridman (3:28:18.000)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (3:28:19.000)
We wait till you get through.
Lex Fridman (3:28:20.000)
You get in there.
Kelsi Sheren (3:28:21.000)
She gets deep, real aggressive, like.
Lex Fridman (3:28:25.560)
Crack the door for I am the light, the giver, the taker.
Kelsi Sheren (3:28:33.920)
I am warrior.
Lex Fridman (3:28:34.920)
I am life.
Kelsi Sheren (3:28:35.920)
I am air.
Lex Fridman (3:28:36.920)
I am water.
Kelsi Sheren (3:28:37.920)
I am fire.
Lex Fridman (3:28:39.400)
I am light.
Kelsi Sheren (3:28:44.320)
This will, this can.
Lex Fridman (3:28:46.400)
This will, this can.
Kelsi Sheren (3:28:49.760)
For I am warrior.
Lex Fridman (3:28:53.840)
For I am light.
Lex Fridman (3:28:54.840)
And there's a leaf here.
Lex Fridman (3:28:56.360)
What's the story with the leaf?
Kelsi Sheren (3:28:57.880)
I don't know.
Kelsi Sheren (3:28:58.880)
I was walking and every single time over the, over those three days, anytime I like went
Kelsi Sheren (3:29:02.160)
for a walk by myself, I would just hear like, take this, like just almost like as if a voice
Kelsi Sheren (3:29:09.760)
was standing there and be like, you need this, take it, take it with you and keep it in your
Kelsi Sheren (3:29:12.440)
book.
Lex Fridman (3:29:13.440)
Ground you.
Lex Fridman (3:29:16.600)
And it just goes off.
Lex Fridman (3:29:17.600)
So this is from there.
Kelsi Sheren (3:29:18.600)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:29:19.600)
It's cool to have sort of, it's almost like time travel.
Kelsi Sheren (3:29:23.160)
I have poppies from France too when I did a, I did a 75th anniversary D Day ride in France
Lex Fridman (3:29:28.400)
where we rode 600 kilometers on our road bikes for charity.
Lex Fridman (3:29:32.120)
And we landed on the beaches of Juneau on the 75th and we got to go by the poppy fields
Lex Fridman (3:29:37.960)
and I'm like covered in poppies and I have some in a book.
Kelsi Sheren (3:29:42.760)
I don't know why I do that.
Lex Fridman (3:29:44.120)
I just, I do that.
Kelsi Sheren (3:29:47.160)
That's cool because like, these are your thoughts and those are the physical items as it really
Lex Fridman (3:29:51.680)
helps transport to that place somehow.
Kelsi Sheren (3:29:55.200)
Let the light in, let her in.
Lex Fridman (3:29:56.680)
And she would show me these visuals.
Lex Fridman (3:30:02.840)
So my drawings are just like, yeah, there's drawings here and you're seeing this stuff.
Lex Fridman (3:30:12.120)
Oh yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (3:30:14.720)
I can't draw either.
Lex Fridman (3:30:15.720)
So that's why they're so, I wish I could draw because if only I could translate what I could
Kelsi Sheren (3:30:20.280)
see visually onto paper.
Lex Fridman (3:30:24.560)
And you're talking to her.
Kelsi Sheren (3:30:26.320)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:30:27.320)
It's time.
Kelsi Sheren (3:30:28.320)
I'm here to listen.
Lex Fridman (3:30:32.000)
Is this Mama Aya?
Kelsi Sheren (3:30:34.040)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:30:35.040)
We call her Mama Aya.
Kelsi Sheren (3:30:36.040)
Mama Aya.
Lex Fridman (3:30:37.040)
Mama Aya.
Lex Fridman (3:30:38.040)
So what, who, who are you seeing?
Lex Fridman (3:30:41.080)
Is this a woman?
Lex Fridman (3:30:42.380)
So for me at first, it was just eyes floating in the sky.
Kelsi Sheren (3:30:46.160)
These unbelievably gorgeous, beautiful eyes that I, and I was like literally looking up
Lex Fridman (3:30:50.920)
at the top of the yurt and I kept going to myself, is anyone else seeing this?
Lex Fridman (3:30:55.040)
There's eyes in the sky.
Lex Fridman (3:30:59.160)
And so there's these eyes floating and they just kept looking at me.
Lex Fridman (3:31:04.020)
And I remember when I kept telling myself like, oh, don't worry about it, there's nothing
Kelsi Sheren (3:31:07.080)
there.
Lex Fridman (3:31:08.080)
She would get angry.
Kelsi Sheren (3:31:09.520)
I'm right here.
Lex Fridman (3:31:11.480)
Pay attention to me.
Lex Fridman (3:31:12.480)
And I'd be like, okay, like forceful, like very forceful.
Lex Fridman (3:31:17.640)
So at first it was just the eyes.
Kelsi Sheren (3:31:20.520)
The second night, is I'm crazy when I say this, great, that's going to be my clip, easy
Lex Fridman (3:31:32.200)
on crazy.
Kelsi Sheren (3:31:33.200)
It's what I do when I get uncomfortable.
Lex Fridman (3:31:35.760)
I do weird hand gestures and movements.
Kelsi Sheren (3:31:37.960)
Voices, I like it.
Lex Fridman (3:31:40.080)
Yeah, I do.
Kelsi Sheren (3:31:41.080)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (3:31:42.080)
You would hate to be in my office because most of the day it's just this weird lunges
Lex Fridman (3:31:48.120)
and uncomfortable moments.
Lex Fridman (3:31:50.440)
She turned me into a wolf.
Kelsi Sheren (3:31:54.960)
I know I said it out loud.
Lex Fridman (3:31:55.960)
I said, I hear it, I said it, head to toe.
Lex Fridman (3:32:01.380)
And her takeaway for me was, I'm trying to be this pack leader, I'm trying to be this
Lex Fridman (3:32:07.600)
leader in my life.
Kelsi Sheren (3:32:08.600)
I'm trying to do these things, but I'm going about them the whole wrong way.
Lex Fridman (3:32:13.820)
So like when the shamans call you up to do their special prayer over you, you go up,
Kelsi Sheren (3:32:18.080)
you don't touch them.
Lex Fridman (3:32:19.080)
They flash their little light.
Kelsi Sheren (3:32:20.080)
You see the little light spot, you walk to the light, you sit down on the light.
Lex Fridman (3:32:24.080)
And then my shaman, he's so funny because he's got this great tone in his voice.
Lex Fridman (3:32:27.480)
He goes, how are you doing Kelsey?
Lex Fridman (3:32:31.440)
And I'm like, so hi, yeah, I have a problem.
Kelsi Sheren (3:32:37.240)
I'm a wolf and I need it to stop.
Lex Fridman (3:32:39.560)
And he'd be like, don't you worry girl, I got you, you ready?
Lex Fridman (3:32:42.600)
And I was like, uh huh, uh huh.
Lex Fridman (3:32:44.600)
So I'm sitting there cross legged, I've got my palms out like this.
Lex Fridman (3:32:48.400)
And I had a really traumatic shoulder injury.
Lex Fridman (3:32:50.240)
So I don't just sit slanted like this.
Kelsi Sheren (3:32:51.860)
My shoulders actually permanently detached and no one in the world will touch it or fix
Lex Fridman (3:32:55.240)
it.
Kelsi Sheren (3:32:56.240)
My collarbone comes out my back here and I don't have any collarbone here.
Lex Fridman (3:33:00.960)
So nobody will fix it.
Kelsi Sheren (3:33:02.520)
No one will touch it.
Lex Fridman (3:33:03.880)
Even I've had specialists, I've had surgeries, no one will do anything with it.
Lex Fridman (3:33:06.840)
So I'm permanently down and forward.
Lex Fridman (3:33:09.640)
So I slouch, it's horrible.
Lex Fridman (3:33:14.920)
So before I.
Lex Fridman (3:33:15.920)
Functionally too.
Kelsi Sheren (3:33:16.920)
Oh, there's nothing.
Lex Fridman (3:33:17.920)
I can't do a pull up anymore.
Kelsi Sheren (3:33:18.920)
Oh, so weak.
Lex Fridman (3:33:19.920)
Oh, wow.
Kelsi Sheren (3:33:20.920)
Oh, you should, I'll show you how to do a pushup after you'll fucking throw up in embarrassment.
Lex Fridman (3:33:26.480)
Yeah, it's bad.
Lex Fridman (3:33:27.700)
So before I though, chronic pain, like had to drink a bottle of CBD every day just to
Kelsi Sheren (3:33:32.120)
the pain is so bad because the trauma and it was so bad, the surgery went wrong.
Kelsi Sheren (3:33:38.040)
The collarbone dissipated and no longer exists.
Kelsi Sheren (3:33:40.740)
Like there's just, and they're not sure how I lift things with it and do stuff with it.
Kelsi Sheren (3:33:44.920)
It's like overcompensation everywhere.
Lex Fridman (3:33:46.920)
Like my, the, my back, like, um, my trap, my scapula, like flares outward.
Kelsi Sheren (3:33:53.080)
It's I'm all messed up from it.
Lex Fridman (3:33:54.880)
And so I was in chronic pain.
Lex Fridman (3:33:56.480)
So he's praying over me and all of a sudden all I feel is this arm just start just fucking
Kelsi Sheren (3:34:03.720)
vibrating and my hair's really long and I feel somebody grabbed the back of my ponytail
Lex Fridman (3:34:08.440)
and snap my head back like this.
Lex Fridman (3:34:12.140)
And it felt like something was coming out of my throat, like being pulled out of me
Kelsi Sheren (3:34:18.920)
in the takeaway that I ended up in the whole, the rest of the night, there was a million
Lex Fridman (3:34:22.200)
other things.
Lex Fridman (3:34:23.200)
And the takeaway was you no longer need to bite.
Lex Fridman (3:34:30.160)
You may only show your teeth.
Kelsi Sheren (3:34:32.560)
You can be the leader that you want to be.
Lex Fridman (3:34:35.320)
You do not always have to be the traditional type of leader.
Kelsi Sheren (3:34:39.460)
You can be in the back of the pack.
Kelsi Sheren (3:34:41.120)
You have to watch the rest around you be, be mindful of those around you instead of
Kelsi Sheren (3:34:46.920)
just being upfront, be, be behind as well.
Lex Fridman (3:34:50.620)
Make sure that every thing that you're doing is all being looked after.
Kelsi Sheren (3:34:54.680)
Because my thing was I will rip your fucking head off if you just say the wrong thing to
Lex Fridman (3:34:58.120)
me before.
Kelsi Sheren (3:34:59.760)
The whole thing was you can just show your teeth and that is more than enough.
Lex Fridman (3:35:03.880)
Stop trying to be, stop trying to overcompensate.
Kelsi Sheren (3:35:07.160)
You don't need to do that any longer.
Lex Fridman (3:35:09.400)
And then I had this weird astral projection thing happen like where I was in my house
Lex Fridman (3:35:15.920)
and there were these flyers all over my husband and my son and like I went ham on them.
Lex Fridman (3:35:22.520)
I like shredded them to pieces.
Kelsi Sheren (3:35:24.640)
Like I was this protector.
Lex Fridman (3:35:28.120)
And it's crazy because the guys told me after like someone would be like, there were flyers
Kelsi Sheren (3:35:33.280)
all over you the whole night.
Lex Fridman (3:35:35.120)
They were just all over you.
Lex Fridman (3:35:36.200)
And I'm like, I was snarling when I was sitting there.
Kelsi Sheren (3:35:38.800)
Like the shaman had to be like, I need you to try to calm your breathing after I could.
Lex Fridman (3:35:43.920)
But before like I was like attacking things beside me that people could see and I could
Lex Fridman (3:35:50.200)
see but couldn't wrap my brain around that they were real.
Kelsi Sheren (3:35:53.400)
Like it was weird.
Lex Fridman (3:35:54.400)
This is a crazy man.
Kelsi Sheren (3:35:58.440)
That's day two.
Lex Fridman (3:35:59.440)
That's day two.
Lex Fridman (3:36:00.440)
And so what's the big takeaway there?
Kelsi Sheren (3:36:03.760)
My takeaway was I needed to be, I needed to stop trying to, stop trying to push everything
Kelsi Sheren (3:36:11.480)
too hard.
Lex Fridman (3:36:12.480)
Stop trying to force everything.
Kelsi Sheren (3:36:14.560)
It's all going to come.
Lex Fridman (3:36:15.680)
It's all going to happen.
Lex Fridman (3:36:17.080)
But you are, you are too aggressive.
Kelsi Sheren (3:36:20.160)
You are too, you're trying so hard that you're missing, you're missing everything else.
Kelsi Sheren (3:36:26.240)
Got it.
Lex Fridman (3:36:27.240)
That's just how to be a better human kind of thing.
Kelsi Sheren (3:36:31.480)
Right.
Lex Fridman (3:36:32.800)
This is getting intense.
Kelsi Sheren (3:36:33.800)
Yeah, it gets aggressive.
Lex Fridman (3:36:34.800)
Yeah, it gets aggressive.
Kelsi Sheren (3:36:35.800)
I mean there's love and light still.
Lex Fridman (3:36:42.520)
It gets better.
Kelsi Sheren (3:36:43.520)
Love and light.
Lex Fridman (3:36:44.520)
Love and light the warrior within is calm.
Kelsi Sheren (3:36:48.680)
She will test you daily.
Lex Fridman (3:36:50.520)
Show her respect.
Lex Fridman (3:36:52.160)
So that's what I mean.
Lex Fridman (3:36:53.160)
You've read my book.
Kelsi Sheren (3:36:54.160)
You know I don't write like that.
Lex Fridman (3:36:55.160)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (3:36:56.160)
This is strange.
Lex Fridman (3:36:57.160)
See?
Kelsi Sheren (3:36:58.160)
Good.
Lex Fridman (3:36:59.160)
You get it.
Kelsi Sheren (3:37:00.160)
Because people don't understand when I say I didn't, I don't feel like I wrote that.
Lex Fridman (3:37:04.640)
I feel like she gave me, like I reread this all of the time.
Lex Fridman (3:37:10.280)
So I wonder, I mean, well not obviously, but this is somehow part of you.
Lex Fridman (3:37:16.160)
I think it's a part of me obviously.
Kelsi Sheren (3:37:18.840)
Reconnecting you somehow to that part.
Kelsi Sheren (3:37:20.480)
It kind of is incredible to think of what are the things that are part of us that we
Kelsi Sheren (3:37:24.840)
haven't really explored, you know.
Lex Fridman (3:37:26.880)
And there's so many.
Kelsi Sheren (3:37:28.920)
We just get to talk.
Lex Fridman (3:37:29.920)
Nature.
Kelsi Sheren (3:37:30.920)
To connect to her.
Lex Fridman (3:37:31.920)
Feel her flow through them.
Kelsi Sheren (3:37:34.520)
Use them for the strength for each day a new challenge will present itself.
Lex Fridman (3:37:39.360)
Love.
Kelsi Sheren (3:37:40.360)
Light.
Lex Fridman (3:37:41.360)
Breathe.
Kelsi Sheren (3:37:42.360)
Sorry I have too much hair.
Lex Fridman (3:37:45.120)
Never enough.
Kelsi Sheren (3:37:46.120)
I used to have long hair.
Lex Fridman (3:37:47.120)
What about day three?
Lex Fridman (3:37:48.480)
So day three is the, the stuff I talked about on Jocko.
Lex Fridman (3:37:52.640)
When I got taken over to the other side.
Kelsi Sheren (3:37:55.080)
I almost missed that night too.
Lex Fridman (3:37:57.240)
I almost missed that ceremony.
Kelsi Sheren (3:37:59.160)
I got a false positive on my COVID test and I got a call from the medical clinic that
Lex Fridman (3:38:04.920)
night being like, you need to come in.
Kelsi Sheren (3:38:07.920)
You got a false positive on your COVID test.
Lex Fridman (3:38:10.240)
And if you're going to travel, you have to, we got to figure this out.
Kelsi Sheren (3:38:14.120)
You got to come do blood work.
Kelsi Sheren (3:38:15.120)
You got to come do, you know, whatever it is you need to do if you want to get home,
Lex Fridman (3:38:19.320)
but you got to come do something.
Lex Fridman (3:38:21.280)
And so I didn't think I was going to be in ceremony.
Kelsi Sheren (3:38:24.920)
I had to leave.
Lex Fridman (3:38:25.920)
So I left and you know, they waited, they waited for me.
Lex Fridman (3:38:35.660)
And so I think the biggest takeaway from all of this for me was this isn't it.
Lex Fridman (3:38:43.500)
This isn't everything.
Kelsi Sheren (3:38:45.280)
This isn't the end all be all.
Lex Fridman (3:38:49.500)
You can fight through this.
Kelsi Sheren (3:38:50.960)
This is possible.
Lex Fridman (3:38:52.480)
It's going to take work.
Kelsi Sheren (3:38:53.520)
It's going to be fucking hard.
Lex Fridman (3:38:55.540)
It's worth it though.
Lex Fridman (3:38:56.540)
And if you just keep going in the right direction, everything that I wrote down, everything,
Lex Fridman (3:39:01.640)
every goal, it'll happen.
Lex Fridman (3:39:05.000)
What about love?
Lex Fridman (3:39:07.040)
What about love?
Lex Fridman (3:39:09.540)
Tell me about your husband.
Lex Fridman (3:39:10.540)
Okay.
Kelsi Sheren (3:39:11.540)
He's the best.
Lex Fridman (3:39:12.760)
What role did he play in your life?
Kelsi Sheren (3:39:15.960)
The most pivotal role.
Kelsi Sheren (3:39:17.440)
He kept me alive and made me feel worthy enough to, until I knew that I was worthy enough
Kelsi Sheren (3:39:22.920)
to be alive.
Lex Fridman (3:39:25.160)
Can you dissect that a little bit?
Lex Fridman (3:39:26.440)
Like what, I mean, what role does love play in the human condition?
Lex Fridman (3:39:31.040)
I think love is the only reason that we haven't destroyed ourselves.
Kelsi Sheren (3:39:36.120)
I mean, we humans in general.
Lex Fridman (3:39:39.080)
Yes.
Kelsi Sheren (3:39:40.080)
I think there is a subset of people where love will always be, you know, love conquers
Lex Fridman (3:39:46.480)
all, you know, but that's not always the reality.
Kelsi Sheren (3:39:49.720)
The reality is life is messy and humans are messy and the way we choose to deal with things
Kelsi Sheren (3:39:56.040)
are messy and complicated and difficult, but at the root of all good is love, I think.
Lex Fridman (3:40:02.780)
And for me, I was fortunate enough to meet my husband through a friend, which you listened
Lex Fridman (3:40:11.240)
to that podcast.
Lex Fridman (3:40:12.240)
So I don't know that we need to, unless you really want to go into that story again, how
Lex Fridman (3:40:16.520)
I met my husband.
Kelsi Sheren (3:40:18.000)
Well, the only part of that story I like, people should just go listen to the Jackal
Lex Fridman (3:40:21.920)
podcast is how you made him uncomfortable.
Kelsi Sheren (3:40:23.840)
I love it.
Lex Fridman (3:40:24.840)
I, well, okay.
Lex Fridman (3:40:25.840)
So how it works, let me explain.
Lex Fridman (3:40:26.840)
In the supercross and motocross industry, it's really small.
Kelsi Sheren (3:40:29.440)
The people who are professional, there's, it's a small subset of people.
Lex Fridman (3:40:32.180)
It's kind of like formula one, 21 cars.
Kelsi Sheren (3:40:35.020)
That's what there is.
Lex Fridman (3:40:36.020)
That's the amount of riders.
Lex Fridman (3:40:37.020)
And we should say your husband is a motocross guy.
Kelsi Sheren (3:40:40.240)
My husband was a professional supercross and motocross racer for his whole life.
Lex Fridman (3:40:44.680)
And he raced for Kawasaki and Suzuki.
Lex Fridman (3:40:48.560)
He lived in California and raced all down there.
Lex Fridman (3:40:51.280)
And when I met him, I met him at the tail end of his career.
Lex Fridman (3:40:54.280)
And so I went to Montreal with a friend of mine to see somebody that I was currently
Kelsi Sheren (3:41:00.860)
sleeping with, who was a friend of mine and end up meeting Brady instead.
Lex Fridman (3:41:08.480)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:41:09.480)
And the funny moment in Jackal's podcast was saying that I was fucking him instead
Lex Fridman (3:41:13.440)
of just sleeping with him.
Lex Fridman (3:41:14.920)
And then Jackal's face exploded and Jackal was like, oh, sleeping.
Lex Fridman (3:41:18.680)
So like he was, he was trying to get details of the sleeping quarters that you're just
Kelsi Sheren (3:41:23.100)
trying to get you to define as a good interviewer would, oh, sleeping, okay.
Lex Fridman (3:41:26.800)
And then you were like, it's fucking Jackal or something like that.
Kelsi Sheren (3:41:32.080)
It was great.
Lex Fridman (3:41:33.080)
It was great.
Lex Fridman (3:41:34.080)
But that's true because in that industry, it's like, we, it's small.
Lex Fridman (3:41:37.500)
We all share, trust me, is what it is.
Lex Fridman (3:41:41.600)
And it was, so I met him there and he had broken his wrist really, really bad.
Lex Fridman (3:41:45.240)
And I was, this was before I deployed.
Lex Fridman (3:41:48.680)
So I met him and I, we stayed in touch and just became friends and just texted.
Lex Fridman (3:41:54.220)
That was it.
Kelsi Sheren (3:41:55.220)
Nothing weird.
Lex Fridman (3:41:56.220)
And I was deploying though.
Lex Fridman (3:41:57.640)
So we just agreed, you know, we'd be friends.
Lex Fridman (3:42:00.160)
We weren't actually talking about anything romantically at all.
Lex Fridman (3:42:04.080)
And then I deployed and we got talking and to know each other a little more, a little
Lex Fridman (3:42:09.360)
more.
Lex Fridman (3:42:10.640)
And then we decided that we liked each other and we wanted to try to give it at least a
Lex Fridman (3:42:14.160)
semi shot.
Lex Fridman (3:42:15.440)
And so when I got home from Afghanistan, I went and watched him race his last, one of
Lex Fridman (3:42:21.720)
his last two races that he did professionally before he retired, excuse me.
Lex Fridman (3:42:27.280)
And it was in Montreal and one was in Vegas and I hadn't seen him and he didn't really
Lex Fridman (3:42:34.080)
know me.
Kelsi Sheren (3:42:35.080)
We didn't really know each other.
Kelsi Sheren (3:42:36.440)
We met, I slept in the bed beside him because my girlfriend didn't want to get in trouble
Kelsi Sheren (3:42:41.040)
from her boyfriend from sleeping beside a random dude.
Lex Fridman (3:42:45.080)
And then, yeah, we just, we started dating and he really slowly became my rock and he
Kelsi Sheren (3:42:54.080)
understands trauma.
Kelsi Sheren (3:42:55.520)
He had some stuff happen in his life and his family that he went through a lot of therapy.
Kelsi Sheren (3:43:00.640)
He went through a lot of shit.
Kelsi Sheren (3:43:01.640)
He went, he saw what traumatic situations can do to a family and to people and those
Kelsi Sheren (3:43:07.200)
that are suffering with it.
Lex Fridman (3:43:09.420)
And so he was well equipped to handle me, thankfully.
Lex Fridman (3:43:15.420)
And it got to a point where we were doing the long distance back and forth, back and
Lex Fridman (3:43:18.320)
forth and back and forth.
Lex Fridman (3:43:19.320)
And I finally got the call that I was going to be released from the military and I wanted
Kelsi Sheren (3:43:23.240)
to live near him, but I couldn't afford to live in British Columbia because I was from
Kelsi Sheren (3:43:26.640)
Ontario and BC is like, it means bring cash for a reason.
Lex Fridman (3:43:31.160)
I'm like, there's no way I can live there.
Lex Fridman (3:43:32.440)
And then his family was like, come live with us.
Lex Fridman (3:43:35.280)
They had a big enough house.
Kelsi Sheren (3:43:37.400)
They had a big enough house.
Lex Fridman (3:43:39.040)
Trust me, it was fine.
Lex Fridman (3:43:40.520)
So I was like, okay.
Lex Fridman (3:43:42.440)
And so I went from dating this guy long distance to over from 2009 to 2011, just back and forth,
Kelsi Sheren (3:43:49.000)
back and forth, back and forth.
Lex Fridman (3:43:50.880)
And then finally his parents were like, should her get off the pot here with her?
Kelsi Sheren (3:43:53.600)
Come on.
Lex Fridman (3:43:54.600)
It's obvious she loves you and I would never say it.
Kelsi Sheren (3:43:58.280)
That word just as a love.
Kelsi Sheren (3:44:00.320)
Like it was just, I couldn't say for a long time, for a long time because I was dead inside.
Kelsi Sheren (3:44:07.720)
I didn't know what that meant because I couldn't feel, I didn't feel anything.
Lex Fridman (3:44:11.700)
He loved it because he like, we go, we go do something.
Kelsi Sheren (3:44:15.120)
You would never complain about anything.
Lex Fridman (3:44:17.440)
You wouldn't say a fucking word.
Kelsi Sheren (3:44:19.760)
You would just sit there.
Lex Fridman (3:44:20.960)
And now you got all your feelings back and your emotions back and now you're too hot
Lex Fridman (3:44:26.000)
and you're too cold.
Lex Fridman (3:44:27.000)
And anyways, so yeah, he loved it.
Kelsi Sheren (3:44:29.520)
I was numb and dead inside.
Lex Fridman (3:44:30.880)
Seriously, when I call him back.
Lex Fridman (3:44:32.280)
Were you still able to have fun together?
Lex Fridman (3:44:34.160)
That kind of thing?
Kelsi Sheren (3:44:35.160)
Like when you say there's no emotion, there's more emotion around the basics of like everyday
Lex Fridman (3:44:39.680)
life, but you're still able to just like enjoy shit together?
Kelsi Sheren (3:44:43.880)
I was enjoying stuff, but I wasn't feeling.
Lex Fridman (3:44:49.000)
I was like, this is fun.
Kelsi Sheren (3:44:50.000)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:44:51.000)
Right.
Kelsi Sheren (3:44:52.000)
That was it.
Lex Fridman (3:44:53.000)
That was surface level like Lex, this is fun.
Kelsi Sheren (3:44:54.000)
It wasn't.
Lex Fridman (3:44:55.000)
There's nothing there.
Kelsi Sheren (3:44:56.000)
Yeah, no, there's nothing that, Hey, yeah, nothing.
Lex Fridman (3:45:02.440)
And so we went through that for a long time and then I lived with his parents and we,
Kelsi Sheren (3:45:06.520)
we lived there and that was, you know, God damn it.
Lex Fridman (3:45:09.120)
His family was so good to me because I was a nightmare.
Kelsi Sheren (3:45:12.280)
I was a nightmare.
Lex Fridman (3:45:14.040)
Couldn't cook certain food around me anymore.
Kelsi Sheren (3:45:16.080)
Couldn't, couldn't go certain places anymore.
Lex Fridman (3:45:18.280)
Couldn't, you know, crowds were in hard no, we didn't do Canada today.
Lex Fridman (3:45:22.080)
And like, I just changed, I moved in and was like, shit's got to change.
Kelsi Sheren (3:45:26.880)
If you guys don't want me to kill everyone, like, and they were willing and they were
Kelsi Sheren (3:45:31.000)
accepting and they were amazing about it.
Lex Fridman (3:45:34.080)
And then we finally said, okay, well like, does this, is this, we're good.
Kelsi Sheren (3:45:37.760)
We're like, I said, I used to say like, I L you like, I couldn't say love.
Lex Fridman (3:45:44.360)
It freaked me out for a long time.
Lex Fridman (3:45:46.680)
And then I finally said it and then that shit had said it like a month later and I was like,
Lex Fridman (3:45:50.840)
that's not fair.
Kelsi Sheren (3:45:51.840)
That's not the same exact time.
Lex Fridman (3:45:52.840)
I wanted the response.
Kelsi Sheren (3:45:53.840)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:45:54.840)
And he goes to treatment with me, he, whatever I need, he knows that like, hey, it's more
Lex Fridman (3:46:00.560)
for like him and like, how do I handle her?
Lex Fridman (3:46:04.040)
And then we moved out and we bought a house and then he took a sweet ass time.
Kelsi Sheren (3:46:07.880)
We were dating for four years before we were engaged because just to be sure the crazy
Lex Fridman (3:46:12.720)
wasn't too crazy, he waited four years on that.
Kelsi Sheren (3:46:15.520)
Smart man.
Lex Fridman (3:46:16.520)
Right?
Kelsi Sheren (3:46:17.520)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:46:18.520)
Or you can, you could say he's just terrified of commitment, but both.
Kelsi Sheren (3:46:20.800)
A little bit of both.
Kelsi Sheren (3:46:21.800)
Hey, when you were the guy on the posters that all the girls sign up to, that sent all
Lex Fridman (3:46:26.280)
the dirty pictures, fucking why are you giving that up?
Lex Fridman (3:46:28.680)
It's easy.
Kelsi Sheren (3:46:29.680)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:46:30.680)
Commitment is a real commitment then.
Kelsi Sheren (3:46:31.680)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:46:32.680)
Okay.
Kelsi Sheren (3:46:33.680)
This is the Jaco reset.
Lex Fridman (3:46:37.760)
We talked about Brass in Unity a little bit.
Kelsi Sheren (3:46:40.400)
What's the longterm mission goal and dream of your company and the podcast of the same
Lex Fridman (3:46:46.200)
name?
Lex Fridman (3:46:47.680)
So for me, what I've been trying to do with this company is create a community that can
Kelsi Sheren (3:46:54.600)
really work together to not only help vets, first responders, but to really bridge the
Kelsi Sheren (3:46:59.620)
gap with the civilian population and letting them know what we kind of go through and why
Kelsi Sheren (3:47:03.760)
it is such a epidemic and why there is over 22 suicides a day and we are losing people
Kelsi Sheren (3:47:09.800)
like it's going out of style, like the amount of vets that are questioning the last 20 years
Lex Fridman (3:47:13.960)
of their life right now is terrifying.
Kelsi Sheren (3:47:18.760)
I work with organizations that are doing this outreach and they're overloaded right now
Kelsi Sheren (3:47:22.340)
like they have never seen before because this whole thing is just, it's hit ahead here.
Lex Fridman (3:47:28.160)
And so what Brass in Unity tries to do is it is really just a vehicle to get the money
Lex Fridman (3:47:33.080)
in the hands of the people that are doing the work with it.
Kelsi Sheren (3:47:35.520)
I couldn't start a nonprofit because I'm not good at fundraising.
Lex Fridman (3:47:38.680)
I'm not good at being like, give me your money, I'm going to do this with it.
Kelsi Sheren (3:47:42.920)
The least I could do is come up with a product that I know I could give to people or people
Kelsi Sheren (3:47:47.280)
could purchase and if I gave pretty much all of the actual profit from it to those organizations
Lex Fridman (3:47:56.640)
and I give them something to wear that is a touch piece or if they're out and somebody
Lex Fridman (3:48:02.100)
sees a bullet on the wrist they go, hey, what is that?
Kelsi Sheren (3:48:04.920)
It's a conversation starter and that's exactly what it's been and it's done its job as that.
Lex Fridman (3:48:10.880)
And so we, like I said, we are a way to get the vehicle, we're the vehicle, we're the
Kelsi Sheren (3:48:14.520)
money in the hands of the people.
Lex Fridman (3:48:15.900)
People don't always want to just get a tax receipt.
Kelsi Sheren (3:48:18.480)
It's great to donate to something, great on you to do that but most people have a selfish
Kelsi Sheren (3:48:22.960)
aspect and that's okay but if you can tap into that you can then fund these charities
Kelsi Sheren (3:48:28.580)
properly and give them the tools to do their jobs effectively.
Lex Fridman (3:48:32.240)
Up until this point they just count on people's goodness of their hearts.
Kelsi Sheren (3:48:36.360)
Hate to break it to you, humanity is rough right now.
Lex Fridman (3:48:38.900)
We need to look at something a little differently.
Lex Fridman (3:48:40.960)
So these things spark, like a jewelry sparks conversations and then do you work with charities?
Lex Fridman (3:48:46.960)
Yes, oh God, yeah, that's what I do.
Lex Fridman (3:48:49.100)
So my whole mission every day is I get up, I push jewelry and sunglasses on people and
Kelsi Sheren (3:48:54.080)
say but now that you're gonna wear that, now you're a part of the B&U Army, now you're
Kelsi Sheren (3:48:59.480)
a part of this community.
Lex Fridman (3:49:00.480)
Speaking of which, let me put it right back on, branded.
Kelsi Sheren (3:49:05.820)
This is organic product placement.
Kelsi Sheren (3:49:07.960)
Yeah, this isn't like marketing at all, nothing weird about this at all and so we work with
Kelsi Sheren (3:49:13.280)
a lot of organizations and I'm very particular about where we send our money because there
Kelsi Sheren (3:49:17.400)
are, it feels like thousands of vet organizations right now and if we were able to consolidate,
Kelsi Sheren (3:49:24.240)
it would be more ideal.
Lex Fridman (3:49:25.240)
I spoke about that on another show but that's not currently happening.
Lex Fridman (3:49:28.120)
So I try to work with the nonprofits I know, number one, are not paying six figure salaries
Lex Fridman (3:49:32.720)
which trust me, there's lots, a lot.
Kelsi Sheren (3:49:36.180)
Number two, I look at the actual resources that they're providing and if they're going
Kelsi Sheren (3:49:39.900)
to be something that are gonna be useful, in my opinion, whether or not they're actually
Kelsi Sheren (3:49:43.400)
useful and I just don't think they are, that's up for debate.
Kelsi Sheren (3:49:46.400)
I know it's worked for me so I try to fund the things that I know have been helpful for
Kelsi Sheren (3:49:50.160)
me and the people I associate with.
Lex Fridman (3:49:52.720)
So that's why I brought all the paper because I didn't wanna be an idiot and forget anybody
Kelsi Sheren (3:49:57.900)
that's really important because I get caught up in things and I think it's important to
Lex Fridman (3:50:01.160)
acknowledge.
Lex Fridman (3:50:02.160)
So number one, Heroic Hearts, we just started working to talk about them and really make
Lex Fridman (3:50:09.520)
them known but we're gonna be donating to them as well.
Lex Fridman (3:50:12.280)
Are they doing more stuff than the ayahuasca thing?
Kelsi Sheren (3:50:15.040)
Yeah, so their points are, I got Jesse to actually, I'm like what are your talking points
Kelsi Sheren (3:50:19.160)
because I need people to know exactly what you do.
Lex Fridman (3:50:21.840)
So veterans have had to take their mental and general health into their own hands due
Kelsi Sheren (3:50:25.120)
to the failure of the government system so that is why they were created but Heroic
Kelsi Sheren (3:50:29.400)
Hearts is a peer supported mental health network involving full preparation, integration, coaching
Lex Fridman (3:50:34.300)
and connection to vetted psychedelic treatments.
Lex Fridman (3:50:36.560)
So they don't just do ayahuasca, they deal with psilocybin, ketamine, ibogaine but they've
Kelsi Sheren (3:50:42.480)
got protocols in place, they've got locations you go to that are safely vetted and they
Lex Fridman (3:50:47.480)
work.
Kelsi Sheren (3:50:48.480)
They've got over right now, Jesse said they have 800 veterans on a waiting list for treatment.
Lex Fridman (3:50:53.760)
That's just before the spike of the end of this war.
Kelsi Sheren (3:50:57.900)
They have over a hundred, they've helped over a hundred veterans including dozens of special
Lex Fridman (3:51:02.280)
operation vets find effective care.
Kelsi Sheren (3:51:04.960)
They've now got branches in the US, UK and Canada and the biggest thing about them and
Lex Fridman (3:51:09.360)
why we talk about them is because the problem of psychedelics and the stigma around it is
Lex Fridman (3:51:14.740)
so significant but because of great universities that are now stepping up and doing the research
Lex Fridman (3:51:19.080)
behind it, it is being legitimized.
Lex Fridman (3:51:21.360)
So like they're doing that, in Canada there's a group called Theracil, they are currently
Kelsi Sheren (3:51:26.400)
fighting the government to get the rights for Canadians under section 56 of our laws
Kelsi Sheren (3:51:31.720)
to get compassionate care for psilocybin use.
Kelsi Sheren (3:51:34.920)
I've done a panel with them on that really great base out of Victoria, really smart people.
Kelsi Sheren (3:51:40.480)
One of the other bigger charities that we work with and they're honestly, they were
Kelsi Sheren (3:51:44.200)
my first and foremost charity that I ever worked with and they're a big component in
Kelsi Sheren (3:51:48.440)
the veteran community in Canada.
Kelsi Sheren (3:51:51.000)
They're called Honour House and Honour House was started by honorary Colonel Aldi Genova.
Kelsi Sheren (3:51:57.680)
It was started because of a guy named Trevor Green.
Kelsi Sheren (3:52:00.120)
He was a Canadian soldier who deployed and he was, so Captain Trevor Green, sorry Trevor,
Kelsi Sheren (3:52:06.040)
Captain Trevor Green, he got an ax in the middle of his head, a Taliban member came
Kelsi Sheren (3:52:11.420)
up and put an ax directly into his head when his helmet was off and he survived.
Kelsi Sheren (3:52:16.260)
He's done work with Invictus Games and Prince Harry.
Lex Fridman (3:52:19.420)
He has an exoskeleton he uses on the island.
Kelsi Sheren (3:52:22.660)
He's so cool.
Lex Fridman (3:52:23.660)
He hasn't changed one bit from like the infantry captain you expect him to be.
Lex Fridman (3:52:29.280)
And Al saw there was a need for vets and first responders to get treatment because there's
Lex Fridman (3:52:34.980)
no real home away from home for people.
Kelsi Sheren (3:52:37.780)
Picture Ronald McDonald for cancer and families, this is vets and first responders.
Lex Fridman (3:52:42.600)
And so their whole thing, and I'll read it so I say it exactly right because I used to
Kelsi Sheren (3:52:46.040)
be on the board of their charity, but I ran out of time, so now I just consult.
Lex Fridman (3:52:50.100)
But they are a home away from home for members of the Canadian Armed Forces, veterans and
Kelsi Sheren (3:52:55.420)
first responders and their families to stay completely free of charge while they're receiving
Lex Fridman (3:53:00.440)
medical care and treatment in the Vancouver area.
Lex Fridman (3:53:03.640)
But since then, they've expanded since I've come on board and they've opened Honour Ranch,
Lex Fridman (3:53:08.080)
which is up in Ashcroft, BC and it's 140 acres, 10 cabins and a main cabin.
Kelsi Sheren (3:53:14.000)
They do equine therapy and they're more focused on operational stress injury clinic.
Lex Fridman (3:53:18.080)
So sorry, operational stress injury within the veteran community.
Lex Fridman (3:53:22.340)
And they have specialists that do that.
Lex Fridman (3:53:25.320)
They have their own bracelet with us.
Lex Fridman (3:53:27.180)
So every time you buy an Honour House bracelet, all the proceeds go to them.
Lex Fridman (3:53:30.280)
And it's actually the green one.
Lex Fridman (3:53:33.760)
So that one.
Lex Fridman (3:53:34.760)
So when you buy one of those Honour House bracelets, they have those.
Kelsi Sheren (3:53:37.960)
They go directly to them, which is really amazing.
Lex Fridman (3:53:41.260)
They've been near and dear to my heart for a long time.
Kelsi Sheren (3:53:44.600)
You've got the All Secure Foundation, which is these guys are these guys are super dope.
Lex Fridman (3:53:49.120)
I'm going to read exactly because Jen text me.
Lex Fridman (3:53:50.900)
So Jen and Tom Satterly, I've had them both on the podcast.
Lex Fridman (3:53:54.860)
Tom was involved in Black Hawk Down.
Kelsi Sheren (3:53:58.080)
Tom is a Delta.
Lex Fridman (3:53:59.080)
Have you heard of them?
Kelsi Sheren (3:54:00.080)
No.
Lex Fridman (3:54:01.080)
No.
Kelsi Sheren (3:54:02.080)
No.
Lex Fridman (3:54:03.080)
So, okay.
Lex Fridman (3:54:04.080)
So Tom was involved in Black Hawk Down.
Lex Fridman (3:54:05.080)
It was one of his first operations.
Kelsi Sheren (3:54:06.560)
He's a Delta operator.
Lex Fridman (3:54:08.360)
And I asked her, I said, listen, I'm going to be doing these shows and I think it's great
Kelsi Sheren (3:54:11.080)
that we talk about you more.
Lex Fridman (3:54:12.200)
So I said, give me your three points of importance.
Lex Fridman (3:54:15.520)
So the All Secure Foundation serves special operations combat families in healing from
Lex Fridman (3:54:20.100)
post traumatic stress injury and secondary post traumatic stress.
Lex Fridman (3:54:23.380)
So that's often what the wife or the other husband or the other spouse suffers from.
Lex Fridman (3:54:27.680)
And we're starting to see that be more and more of an issue now.
Lex Fridman (3:54:31.260)
So they also are devoted to rebuilding the couple's relationships on the home front after
Lex Fridman (3:54:35.240)
the separations of war.
Lex Fridman (3:54:36.660)
And 80% of their warriors want their families to be more involved in the healing.
Kelsi Sheren (3:54:45.160)
The problem is, is very often vets don't realize that they can have, or just because the system
Kelsi Sheren (3:54:51.480)
doesn't pay for it, actually have their spouse as a part of things.
Lex Fridman (3:54:54.600)
And the biggest thing that we find with special operations families, I think the divorce rate
Kelsi Sheren (3:54:57.840)
is like 95%.
Lex Fridman (3:55:00.360)
And so they work so hard with these families.
Kelsi Sheren (3:55:03.340)
They take them on retreats, these husband and wives, and they get them to connect again
Lex Fridman (3:55:06.480)
after being separated over such a long period of time.
Kelsi Sheren (3:55:09.700)
There's other places like Children of Fallen Patriots out of DC, where they fund education,
Kelsi Sheren (3:55:14.880)
university for people who have lost their parents in deployments, whether their kid's
Kelsi Sheren (3:55:20.080)
even born yet.
Lex Fridman (3:55:21.080)
If they're still in utero, they still pay.
Kelsi Sheren (3:55:23.040)
They do not care.
Kelsi Sheren (3:55:24.040)
Then you've got people like in Canada, you've got Vets Canada, you've got in the States,
Kelsi Sheren (3:55:30.200)
you've got True Patriot Love, you've got, who else in the States is really great that
Lex Fridman (3:55:35.920)
we've worked with.
Kelsi Sheren (3:55:36.920)
I know there's a Green Beret Foundation that's great.
Lex Fridman (3:55:39.200)
One More Wave gives amputees, teaches them to surf with amputees.
Kelsi Sheren (3:55:44.080)
They're really great.
Lex Fridman (3:55:45.260)
There's so many organizations.
Lex Fridman (3:55:46.980)
But at the end of the day, I focus on a small subset because you cannot fix everyone's problems.
Lex Fridman (3:55:55.240)
The least you can do for people is focus.
Kelsi Sheren (3:55:57.960)
If you can provide focus, you can provide the proper amount of funding.
Lex Fridman (3:56:01.360)
Proper amount of funding can get the proper amount of tools.
Kelsi Sheren (3:56:03.720)
Those tools can actually be implemented properly and then those people can go on to hopefully
Kelsi Sheren (3:56:08.700)
have successful marriages and families and we don't have to watch our parents drink themselves
Kelsi Sheren (3:56:14.000)
to death and wonder why daddy's yelling at mommy all the time and daddy storms out and
Lex Fridman (3:56:18.160)
leaves.
Kelsi Sheren (3:56:19.160)
Well, daddy had some shit happen in his life and mommy had some shit happen, but that does
Lex Fridman (3:56:22.100)
not mean that's who they are.
Lex Fridman (3:56:24.480)
And yes, so trauma has completely destructive effects on family and relationships and correcting
Lex Fridman (3:56:31.880)
that as like ripple effects.
Kelsi Sheren (3:56:34.640)
Oh, just astronomical ripple effects.
Kelsi Sheren (3:56:38.400)
Because the problem is we are so quick to tell people they're suffering from PTSD.
Kelsi Sheren (3:56:44.120)
We're so quick to give them drugs.
Lex Fridman (3:56:45.800)
We're so quick to kick them out of the military.
Kelsi Sheren (3:56:48.360)
We're so quick to let them be homeless on the street.
Lex Fridman (3:56:50.300)
We're so quick to let them fucking kill themselves.
Kelsi Sheren (3:56:52.340)
We're so quick.
Lex Fridman (3:56:53.340)
And then all of a sudden, when when a politician goes, veteran suicide is an issue, that's
Kelsi Sheren (3:56:57.440)
when it's a problem.
Kelsi Sheren (3:56:58.680)
Well, if you prevent the problem from happening in the first place, or you give people the
Kelsi Sheren (3:57:02.160)
right funding and tools to do the job, you won't have this problem.
Lex Fridman (3:57:05.800)
Do you have advice for young people, think high school students, maybe undergrads, college
Lex Fridman (3:57:14.800)
students about career, life, how to live a life they can be proud of?
Lex Fridman (3:57:21.180)
You've had one heck of a life.
Kelsi Sheren (3:57:25.680)
Some of them are really cheesy, but they're true.
Lex Fridman (3:57:29.360)
Live a life you can be proud of, number one.
Kelsi Sheren (3:57:32.600)
If you wake up every morning and you hate what you do, change the fucking station.
Lex Fridman (3:57:37.560)
Do not live and stay in that perpetual cycle of bullshit.
Kelsi Sheren (3:57:41.440)
It's not worth it.
Lex Fridman (3:57:42.440)
It's not.
Kelsi Sheren (3:57:43.440)
It's not what you're on this planet for.
Kelsi Sheren (3:57:45.920)
You're worth more than that, than the monotony of waking up, going to work, hating your life,
Kelsi Sheren (3:57:51.120)
drinking yourself to sleep, and functioning.
Lex Fridman (3:57:54.160)
Do yourself a favor.
Kelsi Sheren (3:57:55.220)
The thing I scream about on the show so much is move your fucking body.
Lex Fridman (3:58:00.820)
Move your body.
Kelsi Sheren (3:58:02.720)
Get your blood moving.
Lex Fridman (3:58:04.480)
Allow your body to do what it's here for.
Kelsi Sheren (3:58:07.440)
Go for a run.
Lex Fridman (3:58:08.440)
Go for a walk.
Kelsi Sheren (3:58:09.440)
If you can't run, walk to the fridge three times more than maybe you did before, but
Lex Fridman (3:58:13.800)
you're moving.
Kelsi Sheren (3:58:15.480)
Pay attention to the shit you look at.
Kelsi Sheren (3:58:20.000)
More now than ever, we are seeing our younger generation just be force fed information from
Kelsi Sheren (3:58:25.880)
one side or the other, and none of it makes sense.
Lex Fridman (3:58:28.720)
None of it's understandable.
Kelsi Sheren (3:58:29.800)
It just causes chaos in the brain.
Lex Fridman (3:58:32.960)
Really pay attention to what you listen to.
Kelsi Sheren (3:58:36.880)
Something I've had to learn to do is make time for myself.
Lex Fridman (3:58:42.360)
All of this working 18 hours a day, not sleeping, just work, work, work.
Kelsi Sheren (3:58:47.280)
That doesn't work.
Lex Fridman (3:58:48.280)
That's not sustainable.
Kelsi Sheren (3:58:49.280)
That's not healthy.
Lex Fridman (3:58:50.280)
And it's not anything anyone should be doing.
Kelsi Sheren (3:58:52.680)
Balance is important.
Lex Fridman (3:58:55.360)
But if you're going to take the time to do something for yourself, don't make it sitting
Kelsi Sheren (3:59:00.760)
in front of the TV for six hours, eating a bag of chips, drinking a Coke.
Kelsi Sheren (3:59:05.120)
Make it, I'm going to go for a walk, maybe listen to a podcast where I can learn something.
Kelsi Sheren (3:59:09.960)
Make it, I'm going to go volunteer somewhere.
Lex Fridman (3:59:12.520)
Nobody does that anymore, but make it I can go volunteer somewhere.
Kelsi Sheren (3:59:15.320)
Honor House, they have no paid employees.
Lex Fridman (3:59:18.120)
They have one, everybody is a volunteer.
Kelsi Sheren (3:59:20.600)
They're fucking phenomenal.
Lex Fridman (3:59:23.240)
Just do whatever you're going to do.
Kelsi Sheren (3:59:26.040)
Do it with some fucking drive, put some goddamn effort into your life and pick something in
Lex Fridman (3:59:31.460)
a career that's going to make you happy.
Kelsi Sheren (3:59:34.460)
Not something that's just going to give you six figures because that's not going to make
Lex Fridman (3:59:36.960)
you happy.
Kelsi Sheren (3:59:37.960)
I can tell you right now, I have everything in the world and the last thing I want is
Lex Fridman (3:59:41.280)
more things.
Kelsi Sheren (3:59:42.320)
I want less.
Lex Fridman (3:59:43.320)
I want the woods and I want quiet because that's what's important to me.
Kelsi Sheren (3:59:48.160)
I want my family to matter, the people around me to matter, and the small group I keep,
Kelsi Sheren (3:59:53.920)
that tight knit I have, I want them to wake up every minute knowing that they have a friend
Lex Fridman (3:59:58.640)
that they can call on the other line that isn't just like, how's it going?
Lex Fridman (40:00.080)
So we would get a call at any time and there's always two guns together.
Lex Fridman (40:05.760)
So you never, you never go solo gun ever.
Lex Fridman (40:08.440)
If you are, it's, there's, it's sketchy and there's bad shits happening.
Lex Fridman (40:12.600)
Can you explain that?
Lex Fridman (40:13.600)
So there's two gun, two people, two guns?
Kelsi Sheren (40:15.240)
No, two guns with each gun troop.
Lex Fridman (40:17.480)
So each gun troop has five to seven people running a gun at all times.
Kelsi Sheren (40:20.400)
Oh wow.
Lex Fridman (40:21.400)
It takes a lot of people to run one of those.
Lex Fridman (40:22.400)
How much electronics is there?
Kelsi Sheren (40:24.240)
The GPS, like the computer system that's on it itself, I never ran that much, but it is
Kelsi Sheren (40:28.360)
completely technologically, it's GPS guided.
Lex Fridman (40:32.620)
All you have to do is literally type in the coordinates.
Kelsi Sheren (40:35.400)
Then you've got the two big, um, there's a, there's a technical word, word for it, but
Kelsi Sheren (40:40.220)
basically wheels and one does the trajectory, you know, you do your, and you're just kind
Kelsi Sheren (40:44.540)
of doing this and you're watching the watch in it.
Lex Fridman (40:46.700)
And once you hit your target, that's, you know, it'll tell you that's where you need
Kelsi Sheren (40:50.160)
to hit.
Lex Fridman (40:51.160)
Do you know if there's any like AI stuff like computer vision, like where there's cameras
Lex Fridman (40:56.040)
and they help you target using like all different kinds of cameras to see through like the fog,
Lex Fridman (41:03.280)
all those kinds of things.
Kelsi Sheren (41:04.280)
We use, um, the FOO, which are Forward Observation Officers, which are an artillery individual
Lex Fridman (41:10.560)
that is embedded with an infantry unit.
Kelsi Sheren (41:14.080)
Oh wow.
Lex Fridman (41:15.080)
Okay.
Kelsi Sheren (41:16.080)
They call from the front, give us their grid coordinates and basically say like, don't
Lex Fridman (41:19.000)
drop this on us.
Kelsi Sheren (41:20.000)
Got it.
Lex Fridman (41:21.000)
So, well, you know what not to shoot, which parts not to shoot.
Kelsi Sheren (41:24.080)
Correct.
Lex Fridman (41:25.080)
And then.
Kelsi Sheren (41:26.080)
As long as no one moves.
Lex Fridman (41:27.080)
Don't move.
Kelsi Sheren (41:28.080)
Stay still.
Lex Fridman (41:29.080)
But you can hear it coming, but you can't hear it until it's too close.
Lex Fridman (41:32.840)
So like when I went, sorry, go ahead, you were going to say something.
Kelsi Sheren (41:35.160)
No, I was going to say, what's the experience on the other, like, what does it feel like
Lex Fridman (41:39.960)
to be maybe infantry or underneath it, underneath the artillery?
Kelsi Sheren (41:44.640)
Well, I, I had the rare opportunity to do that and I have a video I'll show you after.
Kelsi Sheren (41:52.360)
It's terrifying because I know the people that are shooting it and I know them personally
Lex Fridman (41:57.460)
and I know what they're like as humans and for the most part they're dialed.
Kelsi Sheren (42:00.680)
Well, you get the odd duck where you're like, I've seen people have an ND, which is a negligent
Lex Fridman (42:05.240)
discharge.
Kelsi Sheren (42:06.720)
You basically get charged for it.
Kelsi Sheren (42:08.000)
You get in a lot of trouble because you can blow people up and it like accidents happen.
Lex Fridman (42:12.760)
And so I know accidents can happen in stressful situations.
Lex Fridman (42:15.880)
And when I was with the Brits, we had to call danger, close artillery.
Lex Fridman (42:19.960)
And when it goes over top of you, it sounds like thunder and lightning.
Lex Fridman (42:23.640)
So you fire it and it's not the stereotype that you hear in World War II where it kind
Kelsi Sheren (42:28.920)
of like that, it's more of like a crackle.
Lex Fridman (42:34.080)
And then you just hear like a whiz and it shit just goes everywhere.
Kelsi Sheren (42:38.960)
It's loud.
Lex Fridman (42:39.960)
It shakes the ground.
Kelsi Sheren (42:41.280)
It shakes you.
Lex Fridman (42:42.280)
It, you feel it.
Kelsi Sheren (42:44.400)
Okay.
Kelsi Sheren (42:46.280)
Is there some more words you can put to like the experience of what it's like to be in
Lex Fridman (42:50.920)
the heat of, of, of battle there?
Lex Fridman (42:53.760)
So what is, is there literally, is it hot?
Kelsi Sheren (42:57.280)
Is it
Lex Fridman (42:58.280)
like being under it or shooting it?
Kelsi Sheren (42:59.720)
Under it.
Lex Fridman (43:00.720)
Oh yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (43:01.720)
It, 55 degree heat.
Lex Fridman (43:02.720)
You're, you know that you're waiting for it to be called.
Kelsi Sheren (43:04.880)
You feel an overwhelming excitement to start because for me, I'd never been under it.
Lex Fridman (43:10.220)
So I was like, okay, I had my camera ready.
Kelsi Sheren (43:12.760)
Like I was a kid at a candy store and I'm like, I want to watch this happen.
Lex Fridman (43:16.760)
And once you hear the crackle, I got really fearful.
Kelsi Sheren (43:21.440)
My anxiety kicked up significantly.
Lex Fridman (43:24.760)
I got to the point where I got numb.
Kelsi Sheren (43:28.900)
Like I was, my nerves were on overdrive so much that like my body would go like numb.
Lex Fridman (43:32.960)
Like I couldn't move, but like my nerves were numb.
Kelsi Sheren (43:35.600)
If that makes sense.
Lex Fridman (43:36.600)
What, what were the nerves like and we're talking about fear or is it just anxious excitement?
Kelsi Sheren (43:42.400)
Anxious excitement, hopeful that they wouldn't blow it up on us.
Lex Fridman (43:45.840)
And there was this, there was this excitement that's hard to describe because you don't
Kelsi Sheren (43:52.560)
want to be excited that you're dropping bombs on people.
Lex Fridman (43:55.880)
But when you just saw their faces and they're shooting at you, there's this overwhelming
Kelsi Sheren (44:00.200)
feeling of got you motherfucker.
Lex Fridman (44:02.920)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (44:03.920)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (44:04.920)
Well, we'll talk about that because that's such a difficult thing about wars.
Kelsi Sheren (44:10.400)
You forget that it's other human beings because those other human beings are doing really
Lex Fridman (44:15.680)
bad things to you.
Lex Fridman (44:16.960)
And so the very basic anger takes over, hate can take over.
Lex Fridman (44:23.400)
And then also just the excitement of almost like video game like, you know, aspect of
Kelsi Sheren (44:31.040)
war, like sport, it's like sport that all of those elements are all baked in and it's
Lex Fridman (44:35.880)
hard to be philosophical in that situation it seems like.
Kelsi Sheren (44:40.000)
I've never played video games so I can't compare it to that.
Lex Fridman (44:43.040)
But like from, from like a sports perspective, yeah, I could, I could argue that.
Kelsi Sheren (44:46.580)
Like I felt like we won there for a second and it's, it's not just like a heat from outside.
Lex Fridman (44:52.440)
It's like this radiation within you that is something I've never felt since.
Kelsi Sheren (44:59.840)
You just to take a small step back to the weapons training, what, what kind of guns
Lex Fridman (45:05.120)
did you train on?
Kelsi Sheren (45:06.320)
Because you also mentioned a rocket launcher.
Lex Fridman (45:08.120)
I love Carl Grossoff's.
Lex Fridman (45:10.480)
What are those?
Lex Fridman (45:11.480)
What are those?
Kelsi Sheren (45:12.480)
Carl G.
Lex Fridman (45:13.480)
Carl G's?
Lex Fridman (45:14.480)
What's that?
Kelsi Sheren (45:15.480)
What's it like, my only experience with the rocket launchers is from the movie Commando
Kelsi Sheren (45:19.480)
with Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Lex Fridman (45:20.480)
Oh yeah.
Lex Fridman (45:21.480)
And we've all discussed.
Lex Fridman (45:22.480)
I haven't seen that yet.
Lex Fridman (45:23.480)
And I've heard about it and people have made me tell.
Lex Fridman (45:24.480)
Yeah, I know.
Kelsi Sheren (45:25.480)
I feel like you haven't seen a single movie that's relevant to war military because every
Lex Fridman (45:30.560)
time anyone brings it up, you say you haven't seen it.
Kelsi Sheren (45:33.080)
I don't have time to watch movies, Lex.
Lex Fridman (45:35.120)
Platoon.
Kelsi Sheren (45:36.120)
You haven't seen Platoon, which is, you're the scientist.
Lex Fridman (45:38.640)
How do you have the time?
Kelsi Sheren (45:40.240)
I'm not a scientist.
Lex Fridman (45:41.240)
I just play one on TV.
Kelsi Sheren (45:43.240)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (45:44.240)
Sure.
Lex Fridman (45:45.240)
So what, can you talk about the rocket launcher and maybe any other, for both engineering
Kelsi Sheren (45:51.000)
actually, to me, those guns are very interesting from an engineering perspective too.
Kelsi Sheren (45:55.040)
Well, they should be.
Kelsi Sheren (45:56.080)
They're fascinating when you take them apart and you see how small the parts get down to
Lex Fridman (46:00.280)
and how necessary every single little piece is to make that thing run.
Lex Fridman (46:03.880)
And even without the tiniest little BB smaller than a piece on there, an artillery gun might
Kelsi Sheren (46:08.960)
not run.
Lex Fridman (46:10.240)
So we were trained on Carl G's, I think called M72s, which are disposable rocket launchers.
Kelsi Sheren (46:17.120)
I'll back up.
Lex Fridman (46:18.280)
Carl G's are around, I don't know the exact millimeter of the round.
Kelsi Sheren (46:23.680)
It's been a while since I shot them.
Lex Fridman (46:24.800)
We only did those in training.
Lex Fridman (46:26.660)
But essentially it takes, most people, one person can fire it, effectively hold it and
Lex Fridman (46:31.960)
fire it.
Kelsi Sheren (46:32.960)
It takes another person to load it.
Lex Fridman (46:34.400)
So you put it onto your shoulder and it weighs, I would, I don't know, 30 pounds, 40 pounds.
Kelsi Sheren (46:39.840)
Oh, wow.
Lex Fridman (46:40.840)
Can't remember.
Kelsi Sheren (46:41.840)
It's been a minute.
Lex Fridman (46:42.840)
It's been a minute.
Lex Fridman (46:43.840)
But one person can carry it.
Lex Fridman (46:44.840)
Oh, yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (46:45.840)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (46:46.840)
I don't know.
Kelsi Sheren (46:47.840)
It just seems like a rocket launcher is a pretty intense kind of device that just.
Lex Fridman (46:53.760)
It for sure is.
Kelsi Sheren (46:54.760)
I mean, it's the diameter, I can't even tell you the diameter, they're about that big.
Lex Fridman (46:58.760)
I mean.
Lex Fridman (46:59.760)
And it goes on your shoulder.
Lex Fridman (47:00.760)
It goes on your shoulder and then it has a little sight that pops out.
Kelsi Sheren (47:04.560)
That's almost like plastic like, which is kind of funny because it reminds me of like
Lex Fridman (47:07.400)
the little green army men.
Kelsi Sheren (47:11.120)
I just felt so flimsy to me.
Lex Fridman (47:13.160)
I was like, this is hilarious.
Lex Fridman (47:15.240)
And then another person stands behind you and opens the hatch.
Lex Fridman (47:17.500)
And so there's this, there's these two levers and you just kind of open it.
Lex Fridman (47:23.040)
And then the back end, which is flared, so it's just a tube and then it's flared.
Kelsi Sheren (47:28.320)
That will open it and drop down and you load a round into that and then you load it back
Kelsi Sheren (47:32.200)
up.
Lex Fridman (47:33.200)
Got it.
Lex Fridman (47:34.200)
And you're never supposed to stand behind it because the blast behind it will kill you.
Lex Fridman (47:38.040)
It's yeah.
Lex Fridman (47:40.080)
But in my case, when I fired it, it was me and another individual, I want to say it wasn't
Lex Fridman (47:46.280)
Sarah Pellegrin, but it was another girl that was smaller.
Lex Fridman (47:49.640)
And the person is supposed to wrap around your waist and tuck low and hold your stability.
Lex Fridman (47:54.040)
And we were just aiming at tanks that day and they were just concrete heads.
Lex Fridman (47:58.320)
So they would just either, they would hit and bounce off or whatever.
Lex Fridman (48:02.480)
And so when my sergeant saw that, he just kind of looked at both of us and was like,
Kelsi Sheren (48:07.720)
no, I'm just going to.
Lex Fridman (48:08.920)
And he got real low and just like wrapped both of us and then we'd fire it.
Lex Fridman (48:14.560)
And it feels like you're getting punched in the side of the head on repeat by Jocko.
Kelsi Sheren (48:21.120)
You lose all your hearing, like just, snot comes out of your nose and you're just kind
Kelsi Sheren (48:27.320)
of discombobulated for a minute.
Lex Fridman (48:29.720)
It's a real mind fuck.
Kelsi Sheren (48:32.400)
Is there any other kind of guns that at that time, because you were new to this, you haven't
Lex Fridman (48:39.720)
shot guns when you were younger that were really impressive to you in the training process?
Kelsi Sheren (48:44.440)
All of them, because I've never fired a weapon.
Lex Fridman (48:46.740)
So we had the C7s, which are like your M16s, I believe, the long barrel.
Kelsi Sheren (48:52.560)
The cute thing about those is when I have that slung, my barrel drags on the ground.
Lex Fridman (48:57.280)
So that's fun.
Lex Fridman (48:59.240)
And they shoot your 7.62 or your 5.56 round.
Lex Fridman (49:02.640)
I loved that.
Kelsi Sheren (49:03.640)
I preferred the C8, which was a short barrel, which is what the SF guys use.
Kelsi Sheren (49:08.920)
Not because it's cooler looking, which it obviously is, but because it was functional
Kelsi Sheren (49:13.320)
for my body height and it didn't drag on the ground when I ran.
Lex Fridman (49:16.840)
I loved those.
Kelsi Sheren (49:17.840)
They're your personal weapon.
Kelsi Sheren (49:19.920)
Being an artillery gunner, if you're not an officer, at least in our unit, you didn't
Kelsi Sheren (49:22.780)
get a side piece.
Lex Fridman (49:25.280)
I didn't have a slide piece, Lex.
Lex Fridman (49:27.680)
So I never had a handgun of any type.
Lex Fridman (49:30.800)
I fired those in training.
Kelsi Sheren (49:32.000)
You can't get over that side piece comment.
Lex Fridman (49:33.320)
Look at you.
Kelsi Sheren (49:34.320)
I was going to say, I know what a side piece is.
Lex Fridman (49:36.880)
You don't have to explain to me.
Lex Fridman (49:37.880)
But you're single.
Lex Fridman (49:38.880)
So how do you even have a side piece if you don't have a main piece?
Kelsi Sheren (49:41.720)
The joke would be the fact that we have a total misunderstanding what side piece is.
Lex Fridman (49:46.240)
Okay, great.
Lex Fridman (49:47.240)
So you didn't have a side piece as a non officer.
Lex Fridman (49:48.840)
Right.
Lex Fridman (49:49.840)
So I never fired those much.
Lex Fridman (49:51.200)
We did grenades in training.
Kelsi Sheren (49:52.520)
Oh, cool.
Lex Fridman (49:53.520)
Yeah, grenades are fun.
Kelsi Sheren (49:54.520)
I love grenades.
Lex Fridman (49:55.520)
I have a massive one tattooed on me.
Kelsi Sheren (49:56.860)
I have them all over my office.
Lex Fridman (49:58.320)
How does a grenade work?
Kelsi Sheren (4:00:01.940)
That can actually have a conversation, a meaningful, intelligent, caring conversation.
Kelsi Sheren (4:00:09.800)
We are just breeding these kids to be followers who digest bullshit, who reverberate things
Kelsi Sheren (4:00:16.480)
they don't fully understand and have opinions on stuff they have no business talking about.
Lex Fridman (4:00:22.160)
Yeah, with an open mind, humbly think deeply about the world.
Lex Fridman (4:00:29.200)
How has your relationship with death changed?
Lex Fridman (4:00:32.780)
This is a Russian program, I have to ask you.
Lex Fridman (4:00:36.180)
So you've considered suicide throughout your life.
Lex Fridman (4:00:38.720)
You have been in the line of fire, you have witnessed death.
Kelsi Sheren (4:00:43.120)
You as a human being, a mortal one, do you think about your death these days now that
Lex Fridman (4:00:50.400)
you have begun the journey with dealing with your trauma?
Lex Fridman (4:00:55.500)
Do you think about your death?
Lex Fridman (4:00:57.960)
Are you afraid of your death?
Kelsi Sheren (4:01:01.400)
Well you don't die, so that's why.
Lex Fridman (4:01:02.960)
What do you mean you don't die?
Kelsi Sheren (4:01:05.380)
You move on.
Lex Fridman (4:01:06.380)
Where do you go?
Kelsi Sheren (4:01:08.640)
To another plane, and another vibration, and another whatever you want to call it.
Lex Fridman (4:01:13.480)
This isn't it.
Kelsi Sheren (4:01:14.480)
This isn't all of it.
Lex Fridman (4:01:16.000)
This is a blip.
Kelsi Sheren (4:01:17.420)
This is a moment.
Lex Fridman (4:01:18.640)
This is a...
Kelsi Sheren (4:01:19.640)
I used to be afraid of death before the military.
Lex Fridman (4:01:22.760)
I was always afraid of dying.
Kelsi Sheren (4:01:24.560)
I don't know why.
Kelsi Sheren (4:01:25.560)
I had this irrational fear that I was going to be kidnapped in my room, like seriously,
Kelsi Sheren (4:01:29.400)
like irrational fear, like afraid.
Lex Fridman (4:01:30.960)
And it's funny because I talked to Michaela yesterday and she said the same thing and
Kelsi Sheren (4:01:37.000)
I was like, oh my God, I know what you're talking about.
Lex Fridman (4:01:39.760)
Being afraid of being kidnapped?
Kelsi Sheren (4:01:41.000)
Yeah, she had this fear that someone was going to come in and take her out of her room.
Lex Fridman (4:01:45.760)
I had the same fear.
Lex Fridman (4:01:46.760)
By a human being or a monster of some kind?
Lex Fridman (4:01:49.080)
No, I think like by a human being.
Lex Fridman (4:01:50.440)
And I had this irrational fear that something was going to happen to me.
Lex Fridman (4:01:54.980)
And like I said, I don't know if it was because my parents were always made me aware of my
Kelsi Sheren (4:01:57.760)
surroundings.
Lex Fridman (4:01:58.760)
People take people.
Kelsi Sheren (4:01:59.760)
This is a real thing that happens.
Lex Fridman (4:02:01.320)
I was really small and I looked like a little boy.
Kelsi Sheren (4:02:03.820)
My hair was like that when I was training.
Lex Fridman (4:02:06.120)
I had short, no hair, flat as a board.
Kelsi Sheren (4:02:08.760)
You would have thought I was a 12 year old boy.
Lex Fridman (4:02:11.000)
And so my mom's like, people take people, sweetie, that's just the reality of life.
Kelsi Sheren (4:02:14.880)
You need to be aware.
Lex Fridman (4:02:15.880)
So I don't know if I had this ingrained in my mind.
Kelsi Sheren (4:02:18.080)
I was always like training to protect myself or fight someone off.
Lex Fridman (4:02:21.640)
So I was like afraid of like this irrational thing.
Lex Fridman (4:02:25.320)
And then I went overseas and then I realized that I could just be literally there talking
Kelsi Sheren (4:02:28.880)
to you, having a conversation, and I could just be taken off the face of the earth.
Lex Fridman (4:02:32.200)
And there's nothing I can do about it.
Lex Fridman (4:02:34.760)
And then I adopted this idea that when it's my time, it'll be my time.
Lex Fridman (4:02:37.760)
But the difference is now, at least I know that if I do go and I do cross and I am and
Kelsi Sheren (4:02:50.400)
I do move on, I know that I live my life the way that I always hoped I would be proud to
Kelsi Sheren (4:02:59.320)
live.
Kelsi Sheren (4:03:00.320)
Can I ask you a dark question because we, you mentioned Robin Williams, you mentioned
Kelsi Sheren (4:03:08.360)
Anthony Bourdain and your own struggle with suicide.
Lex Fridman (4:03:12.280)
Why do you think they ultimately lost the battle, that battle?
Lex Fridman (4:03:18.120)
Why do you think they took their lives?
Kelsi Sheren (4:03:19.520)
Man, that's a, that's a loaded question because you could look at everything from, from biomarkers
Kelsi Sheren (4:03:25.800)
in the brain to know if their serotonin and dopamine levels were crashed in the ground.
Kelsi Sheren (4:03:30.000)
Like there's, there's biological reasonings for some people where they're born bipolar
Lex Fridman (4:03:35.520)
and they have, or, you know, they're schizophrenic, like there's so many things we don't fully
Lex Fridman (4:03:40.760)
grasp about the brain.
Lex Fridman (4:03:43.800)
But what we do know from my perspective, for me at least, there really is no rhyme or reason
Lex Fridman (4:03:52.960)
why I survived and others didn't.
Kelsi Sheren (4:03:56.880)
Stuff and things don't make you happy.
Kelsi Sheren (4:03:59.520)
People don't always know why they're feeling the way they're feeling, but they also are,
Kelsi Sheren (4:04:05.240)
also are not always willing to talk about it or be, they put on a good front.
Lex Fridman (4:04:15.160)
And if nobody knows any different, what do you expect?
Lex Fridman (4:04:18.400)
And it's especially clear with the, the two of them that on the surface they're, you know,
Lex Fridman (4:04:24.240)
exceptionally successful in so many dimensions and still that means nothing.
Kelsi Sheren (4:04:29.160)
Well possessions, anything really is not, doesn't guarantee you happiness.
Lex Fridman (4:04:36.080)
No, it doesn't.
Kelsi Sheren (4:04:38.840)
Well that's terrifying, but when it's good, that's what makes it joyful.
Kelsi Sheren (4:04:49.120)
Like that's what happiness is, is like holy shit somehow amidst all the absurdity, all
Kelsi Sheren (4:04:54.840)
the things that you can't predict, you, you nevertheless feel really good.
Kelsi Sheren (4:04:59.040)
That's why I feel really fortunate to be getting this feat of happiness all the time.
Kelsi Sheren (4:05:05.080)
Well to be or not to be, that's a good place to end it.
Lex Fridman (4:05:10.160)
Kelsey, you're an amazing human being.
Kelsi Sheren (4:05:13.200)
I'm really fortunate that you would spend your valuable time with me.
Lex Fridman (4:05:18.080)
As I said, you're so good at not just talking, but listening.
Lex Fridman (4:05:23.360)
So I definitely will listen to your podcast because I can tell you're an incredible person
Lex Fridman (4:05:27.880)
as an interviewer and as a storyteller.
Lex Fridman (4:05:30.920)
So again, thank you for talking today.
Lex Fridman (4:05:33.640)
Thank you so much, bye.
Kelsi Sheren (4:05:36.640)
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Kelsey Sharon.
Lex Fridman (4:05:39.280)
To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.
Lex Fridman (4:05:43.280)
And now let me leave you with some words from Herbert Hoover.
Lex Fridman (4:05:47.720)
Older men declare war, but it is the youth that must fight and die.
Kelsi Sheren (4:05:54.640)
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
Lex Fridman (50:00.520)
There's the spoon and the pin.
Lex Fridman (50:02.340)
So this the pin holds the spoon in place when you pull that pin, the firing mechanism inside
Kelsi Sheren (50:08.480)
as long as that the spoon is up against it, it won't fire as soon as that spoon goes.
Kelsi Sheren (50:13.560)
I believe it causes a reaction on the inside.
Lex Fridman (50:16.760)
And you've got about five seconds to check it.
Kelsi Sheren (50:18.520)
You'd be better to ask that question too.
Lex Fridman (50:20.920)
I don't mean to get philosophical on this.
Kelsi Sheren (50:22.680)
No, you're not.
Kelsi Sheren (50:23.680)
There's something about a grenade, because you're essentially committing suicide.
Kelsi Sheren (50:30.280)
Unless you get rid of the thing.
Lex Fridman (50:32.520)
There's something like
Kelsi Sheren (50:33.520)
or if you're unlucky, and it just goes off when you pull the pin, which has happened
Lex Fridman (50:36.820)
to tons of people.
Lex Fridman (50:37.820)
So it just feels like a very kind of leap.
Lex Fridman (50:41.120)
It's a dangerous leap into the abyss every time you use the thing.
Kelsi Sheren (50:45.680)
Because when you shoot a gun, like the gun is much less likely to malfunction in terms
Lex Fridman (50:50.040)
of like all the possible ways to go wrong.
Kelsi Sheren (50:52.480)
It just seems like grenade is like
Lex Fridman (50:55.000)
primitive almost.
Kelsi Sheren (50:56.000)
Yeah, it's primitive.
Kelsi Sheren (50:57.560)
It's also real, like in a way that like a bar fight is like being punched in the face
Kelsi Sheren (51:01.920)
is real.
Lex Fridman (51:02.920)
It's like you're here with a weapon of destruction.
Kelsi Sheren (51:05.960)
It's just you and the thing.
Lex Fridman (51:07.440)
Yeah, you have to get rid of it.
Kelsi Sheren (51:08.760)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (51:09.760)
Is that is that terrifying to you?
Lex Fridman (51:11.240)
Like do people still use grenades in warfare?
Lex Fridman (51:13.840)
Oh, yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (51:14.840)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (51:15.840)
Yeah, those are fantastic.
Kelsi Sheren (51:16.840)
The Taliban were throwing them over the wall at the airport in Kabul.
Kelsi Sheren (51:20.120)
People use them all the time because when you're in Afghanistan, if you're in a rural
Kelsi Sheren (51:23.040)
area, you're going from village to village and they're, they're, you know, they're mud
Kelsi Sheren (51:26.020)
hot walls, like they're tall, but you're walking through corridors and stuff, all you got to
Kelsi Sheren (51:30.480)
lob one of those is going to take the whole unit out that just walked by like it's, they're
Lex Fridman (51:33.840)
accurate if you're close enough and they're effective if you're close enough.
Kelsi Sheren (51:39.760)
I love them though.
Kelsi Sheren (51:41.640)
I think they're fascinating to me because they're such a tiny little thing with such
Kelsi Sheren (51:47.960)
devastation.
Lex Fridman (51:48.960)
Yeah, they just can cause such devastation.
Lex Fridman (51:51.160)
But for me, when I had them, the some of the Canadians would make fun of me because when
Lex Fridman (51:55.520)
I did go outside the wire with the British, I had two right here.
Lex Fridman (51:59.280)
And I remember I put a piece of tape over the spoons because in my mind, I could picture
Kelsi Sheren (52:04.560)
myself searching someone and grabbing me and pulling that and that would be me that that
Kelsi Sheren (52:10.160)
would have been like, yep, that if anyone that was going to happen to was her for sure.
Lex Fridman (52:15.580)
So you were deployed to Afghanistan in 2009, okay.
Lex Fridman (52:21.240)
And like we said, you were in great, no, perfect physical shape.
Lex Fridman (52:26.240)
Fucking epic shape.
Kelsi Sheren (52:27.240)
Epic shape, six pack or, I mean, yeah, okay.
Lex Fridman (52:31.360)
So you could do pull up, a lot of pull ups and push ups and yeah, okay.
Lex Fridman (52:37.840)
And well trained, would you say, were you already what like, no, no, no, I'll argue
Lex Fridman (52:43.580)
that point till I'm blue in the face.
Kelsi Sheren (52:45.800)
I spoke to recently, I actually spoke to my sergeant.
Lex Fridman (52:47.920)
He's not a sergeant anymore.
Lex Fridman (52:48.920)
But Sergeant Mark LeBlanc, he's in Africa right now on a deployment.
Lex Fridman (52:51.760)
He gave me a call the other day.
Lex Fridman (52:52.760)
And I remember talking to him about this.
Lex Fridman (52:54.840)
And it's frustrating because we were at an active war.
Kelsi Sheren (52:58.760)
We were sorry, we were involved in an active war where we the units that I were in were
Lex Fridman (53:03.360)
tagged red, which meant they needed people.
Lex Fridman (53:07.420)
So when you need people, things go quick, whether or not that's right.
Kelsi Sheren (53:12.240)
I mean, you could argue that's the similar thing to what's happening in the world right
Kelsi Sheren (53:15.920)
now.
Lex Fridman (53:16.920)
We needed a vaccine.
Kelsi Sheren (53:18.080)
We got a vaccine.
Lex Fridman (53:19.880)
Is it the best it could be?
Lex Fridman (53:21.600)
Could it be better?
Lex Fridman (53:22.920)
Could it do more things?
Kelsi Sheren (53:23.920)
Sure, probably.
Lex Fridman (53:24.920)
But with the time that we had, we did the best that we could.
Kelsi Sheren (53:29.340)
That's my logic on that.
Lex Fridman (53:31.060)
For me, I joined the military in November of 2007.
Kelsi Sheren (53:35.480)
I was in basic training in January of 2008.
Lex Fridman (53:38.840)
I was graduated basic SQ, which is all your weapons training.
Kelsi Sheren (53:43.120)
Your DP1, which is your trade specific training.
Lex Fridman (53:47.520)
So whatever trade you're going to go into, whether it's infantry, armored, artillery,
Kelsi Sheren (53:51.360)
medic, whatever, that's your DP1.
Lex Fridman (53:54.180)
It's called different things in different units.
Lex Fridman (53:56.480)
And then I got posted to my unit in September.
Lex Fridman (54:00.360)
So January to September, I had done all my training.
Lex Fridman (54:03.320)
And I'm an English speaking individual.
Kelsi Sheren (54:05.780)
I got posted to a French unit that only speaks French and had to learn all of the weapons
Kelsi Sheren (54:10.520)
systems, everything, again, that I just learned in that short time frame in French.
Kelsi Sheren (54:15.720)
This part of your story that you're telling this to Jaco is one way to say it is very
Kelsi Sheren (54:21.480)
impressive that you had to learn all of this in French.
Lex Fridman (54:24.880)
So there's also the camaraderie, the social aspect of it, which is difficult, probably.
Kelsi Sheren (54:28.960)
I didn't have any.
Lex Fridman (54:29.960)
Yeah, I didn't have any.
Lex Fridman (54:32.360)
But it also would make you a more effective soldier to be socially, for that cohesion
Lex Fridman (54:37.440)
to be there, right?
Lex Fridman (54:39.280)
But also just understanding the basic terminology.
Lex Fridman (54:42.400)
Correct.
Kelsi Sheren (54:43.400)
The right way to say something on the radio, the right way to run a gun, the right way
Lex Fridman (54:48.040)
to, because you got to move with those guns, you got seven people.
Kelsi Sheren (54:52.540)
It's really magical.
Lex Fridman (54:54.840)
I'll send you a video.
Kelsi Sheren (54:56.200)
When we did some live fire in workup training in Texas before we left, we did a competition
Lex Fridman (55:00.380)
between the other gun to see who could fire 10 rounds faster.
Kelsi Sheren (55:05.680)
It is truly beautiful to watch an artillery unit fire a gun because it's like a symphony.
Kelsi Sheren (55:12.960)
Everyone has their parts and everyone knows and everyone's yelling, but they know why
Kelsi Sheren (55:16.400)
they're yelling and everyone, this guy's got to do this in order for this guy to load the
Lex Fridman (55:20.880)
round.
Kelsi Sheren (55:21.880)
It's just, it's beautiful.
Lex Fridman (55:22.880)
It really is.
Kelsi Sheren (55:23.960)
It is gorgeous to watch.
Lex Fridman (55:25.120)
I miss it deeply.
Kelsi Sheren (55:26.120)
Is there, by the way, for a gun, is there like one person responsible for the, for
Kelsi Sheren (55:30.920)
the aim and the, or like the specification of the location and somebody else that pulls
Lex Fridman (55:36.440)
it, presses the button?
Lex Fridman (55:37.440)
The lanyard.
Lex Fridman (55:38.440)
Is that the lanyard?
Lex Fridman (55:39.440)
The button.
Lex Fridman (55:40.440)
Is there a button?
Lex Fridman (55:41.440)
It's better than a button.
Kelsi Sheren (55:42.440)
You'll like it.
Lex Fridman (55:43.440)
I'll tell you in a second.
Kelsi Sheren (55:44.440)
Okay.
Kelsi Sheren (55:45.440)
There's your Sergeant in charge and then they have their two IC and so the comms come in
Kelsi Sheren (55:51.120)
to the Sergeant and the Sergeant is the, or your Master Bombardier, Bombardier Chef.
Lex Fridman (55:57.120)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (55:58.120)
Sorry.
Lex Fridman (55:59.120)
What?
Lex Fridman (56:00.120)
Bombardier Chef?
Lex Fridman (56:01.120)
What?
Kelsi Sheren (56:02.120)
Bombardier Chef.
Lex Fridman (56:03.120)
Bombardier Chef.
Kelsi Sheren (56:04.120)
Oh, that's the French.
Lex Fridman (56:05.120)
Master Bombardier.
Kelsi Sheren (56:06.120)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (56:07.120)
So it goes like private in the North, like in an infantry or in a regular unit, it's
Kelsi Sheren (56:10.920)
like private corporal, Master Corporal Sergeant.
Kelsi Sheren (56:15.300)
In artillery, it goes Gunner, Bombardier, Master Bombardier, Sergeant and off like that.
Lex Fridman (56:22.660)
So you have two people, but the Sarge is like, you don't move till he says move.
Lex Fridman (56:27.420)
You don't fire till he says fire.
Kelsi Sheren (56:29.120)
Like he's your guy.
Lex Fridman (56:30.120)
He'll give you the coordinates.
Kelsi Sheren (56:31.120)
He'll feed them to the guy that's doing the GPS, that portion.
Lex Fridman (56:34.760)
I really never did it much.
Kelsi Sheren (56:36.120)
I wasn't tall enough to see it.
Lex Fridman (56:38.240)
Like legitimately the way, how high it is up on the gun.
Kelsi Sheren (56:40.560)
Like it was, I couldn't see clearly enough.
Lex Fridman (56:42.840)
It was not good.
Lex Fridman (56:44.480)
So obviously you have a big personality, you're a strong person.
Lex Fridman (56:48.000)
You don't say.
Lex Fridman (56:49.000)
And you have a big hat currently.
Lex Fridman (56:51.800)
I always wear a hat, Lex.
Kelsi Sheren (56:54.400)
It seems like your height and your size was a factor.
Lex Fridman (56:57.480)
Oh, for sure.
Lex Fridman (56:58.560)
How were you able to step up in all those moments and how difficult was it?
Kelsi Sheren (57:04.560)
I don't know that I realized it was difficult while I was doing it because that's just the
Kelsi Sheren (57:07.600)
way it's been.
Lex Fridman (57:08.600)
I've always been the short person.
Kelsi Sheren (57:10.000)
That's life.
Lex Fridman (57:11.580)
Nothing I can do to fix that.
Lex Fridman (57:12.580)
So there was no point.
Lex Fridman (57:13.580)
Am I going to whine about it?
Kelsi Sheren (57:14.580)
I'm going to break my femurs and insert things to make me grow a little bit.
Lex Fridman (57:18.000)
Maybe, maybe since you're in robotics, you can figure that out.
Kelsi Sheren (57:22.520)
That's your task now.
Lex Fridman (57:24.400)
Make me be five foot three, that'd be great.
Kelsi Sheren (57:28.600)
For artillery, really what it came down to was the unit when I got there, there was only
Kelsi Sheren (57:33.960)
a couple of people who spoke any sort of English and my Sergeant was not one of them.
Lex Fridman (57:38.920)
But once he kind of started to get to know me a little bit, the best that he could, he
Kelsi Sheren (57:43.920)
started to put effort into making sure I could lift the rounds, make sure my capacity to
Kelsi Sheren (57:49.880)
do my job was there.
Lex Fridman (57:51.800)
And so he took me under his wing in that aspect.
Lex Fridman (57:54.280)
So he would take me to the gym with him and he would show me exercises that would specifically
Lex Fridman (58:01.080)
help me load the round.
Lex Fridman (58:03.760)
So pick the round up from the ground, pick it up like a trick to put your knee under
Kelsi Sheren (58:07.840)
it, use your legs instead of just pick it up, use your back, pull your back out.
Kelsi Sheren (58:12.360)
He would work on that.
Lex Fridman (58:13.820)
And then depending on the position I was running the gun in, if I was running the side that
Kelsi Sheren (58:18.800)
had the charge bags, I'll explain that in a second, but if I was running the side that
Kelsi Sheren (58:23.000)
had the charge bags, I could step up onto the gun and if I leaned inward enough with
Kelsi Sheren (58:31.560)
my right hand with the charge and I kind of kicked off, I could kind of jump and shove
Lex Fridman (58:39.000)
it up the tube.
Kelsi Sheren (58:41.680)
Almost enough.
Lex Fridman (58:42.680)
Yeah.
Kelsi Sheren (58:43.680)
If I was running the lanyard, which is the thing that makes it go boom, it's really easy.
Lex Fridman (58:47.360)
It's a long rope.
Kelsi Sheren (58:49.140)
You hook it on and you put your right hand on your hip and on your left and you hold
Kelsi Sheren (58:53.600)
it there and you just stare at your Sergeant like this and you just wait for him to yell
Kelsi Sheren (58:57.360)
fire and he points at you when he does it.
Lex Fridman (58:59.940)
And when you do it, you turn your whole body with it.
Lex Fridman (59:03.480)
And when you do that, it alleviates a misfire essentially because if you just pull it sometimes
Lex Fridman (59:09.520)
that's not enough.
Kelsi Sheren (59:10.520)
You got to really give it your whole body into it.
Lex Fridman (59:12.740)
And so he would train me on how to do things differently so that I could do them effectively
Lex Fridman (59:18.680)
and I wasn't a shit pump.
Lex Fridman (59:20.800)
A what?
Lex Fridman (59:22.140)
So shit pump is a term that we use in Canada to call somebody useless.
Kelsi Sheren (59:26.040)
A shit pump is a useless soldier who is just, you're there and that's the shit pump and
Lex Fridman (59:32.160)
so we all just deal with it.
Lex Fridman (59:33.960)
But somehow they're still there.
Kelsi Sheren (59:35.880)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (59:36.880)
What were we talking about?
Kelsi Sheren (59:37.880)
The lanyard.
Lex Fridman (59:38.880)
Okay.
Kelsi Sheren (59:39.880)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (59:40.880)
We were talking about the artillery guns.
Lex Fridman (59:41.880)
So those things though, what you would find fascinating is just how they break down when
Lex Fridman (59:48.160)
you have to take one of those apart.
Kelsi Sheren (59:49.560)
I think your mind would really find it fascinating how a breach comes apart all the way down
Kelsi Sheren (59:55.400)
to like ball bearing size and the only, and there's a way to just make that gun complete
Kelsi Sheren (59:59.960)
ineffective and all you have to do when you're on the charge side, there's a magazine that's
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