Josh Barnett: Philosophy of Violence, Power, and the Martial Arts

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that Josh is one of the great practitioners,

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scholars and teachers of.

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I could probably talk for hours

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about what I've learned from my time on the mat,

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but if I were to say one thing,

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it is that the mat is honest.

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You can't run away from yourself when you step on the mat.

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It reveals your fears, the lies you might tell yourself,

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all the delusions you might have, or at least I had,

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that there's anything in this world that can be achieved

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except through blood, sweat, and tears.

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That honesty, taken to the highest levels,

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as is the case with Josh,

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creates the most special of human beings

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and definitely someone who is fascinating to talk to.

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If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube,

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review it on Apple Podcast, follow on Spotify,

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support it on Patreon,

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or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman.

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And now, here's my conversation with Josh Barnett.

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Who were the philosophers and philosophical ideas

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that influenced you the most?

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Are we just jumping right in?

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That's it. We're right in.

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We're not, no foreplay on camera, all right.

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I had an interesting philosophical journey,

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at least I think it's interesting,

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and that was, I think, as far as organized philosophy

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or maybe, authentic's not the right word,

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but like, yeah, we'll say organized.

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I would say that Nietzsche is probably one of the people

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with the most influence on me,

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but I also feel like, to a degree,

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your personality will oftentimes dictate

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what philosophers that you can vibe with, yeah.

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So what ideas from Nietzsche, was it the Ubermensch?

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Definitely the Ubermensch is huge to me

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because I see it as an extension

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of basically the religious concepts of God

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and higher ideals,

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but just put into a different, a secular context.

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And the idea also that the Ubermensch is striving

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and overcoming something that you're always working towards

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that very few will ever,

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it's not like the concept that you can just make them.

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It doesn't happen that way.

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And it's not based simply upon if you were, say,

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put through a genetic program

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and turned into a super soldier,

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like that wouldn't make it.

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That's like the very surface level

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and incorrect understanding of what the Ubermensch is.

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The Ubermensch is the idea of this kind of human

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that transcends all the weaker, lower aspects of humans,

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which we're full of.

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But I also think that there's an element in Nietzsche's

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writing that suggests that it's not something

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you can even be in all the time.

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Like it's even a temporary state

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because it's not something

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that we're capable of maintaining.

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It's something to strive for.

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Like a morality, an image, an ideal, a set of principles

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that we can connect to that doesn't rely on

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otherworldly kind of out there things.

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It's deeply human.

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With Nietzsche, I feel like the concept of the Ubermensch

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is something built on authenticity as well.

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Heidegger was like Dasein, right?

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So when you are authentic

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and Heidegger being a follower of Nietzsche's

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and highly influenced by him,

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I think that the Ubermensch is an example of authenticity

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in that it isn't about trying to be anything

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that you cannot be or to go against who you are,

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but to actually understand that, accept that,

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and then work with what you can work with

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and create from your lump of clay that is you.

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Because I can't become...

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There's certain things that are just not gonna happen

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for me because it's not in my proclivity.

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I mean, I'm never gonna be five foot tall

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and 120 pounds, I mean, that again, I guess.

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But I know, as you get more in tune with who you are,

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as you start learning more about what unique things

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or at least what that combination that makes you,

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that gestalt part of yourself,

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what those things are and how you can use them,

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then you can work towards being that,

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taking what that is and seeing if you can

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get to that point.

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Now, the likelihood is, no, maybe, probably never.

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I mean, but we can never achieve Godhood yet.

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Religion is a constant striving

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and a look at a higher ideal concept.

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Even if it's multiple gods or one God,

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it's still essentially all built around this concept.

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I like the idea of Catholics original sin.

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If you think of sin, not as evil,

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but as missing the mark, the archer's term where it derives,

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or even like in Spanish,

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you know, without.

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So as being, if you accept that you are imperfect,

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if you accept that you need to constantly strive

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even against yourself,

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because you will figure out the best ways

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at which to submarine your own capabilities,

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submarine your own dreams and wishes and whatever,

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you will ruin them more than anything else.

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And you will tell yourself that you ruined them on purpose

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for a good reason, or you'll say that you'll figure out

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a way to put it on everything else but yourself.

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And so the idea of thinking of,

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well, as I'm starting off on this whole thing,

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I got a lot of work to do, and that's just the way it is.

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And I gotta figure out what areas those are gonna be.

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And so, you know, I thought, oh yeah,

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if I think of original sin actually can be,

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that can be kind of a clever idea,

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but it's also just accepting that

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we're all uniquely strange and unequal in our own ways,

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but we have to figure out how that fits in.

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The word authenticity kind of connects to all of that.

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So striving to be your authentic self means

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figuring out exactly the shape of the flaws,

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the character of your little demons that you get to play with

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and around them finding a path to whatever the hell

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ideal versions of yourself you can carve

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and pretending like that's such a thing as even possible.

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The other idea about Nietzsche is on his idea of morality.

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He presents the argument that morality is a human illusion

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and that there's not such a thing as good and evil,

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and these are all kind of constructs.

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Do you think there's such a thing as good and evil

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that's connected to some objective reality?

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I think that there are some,

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I actually do believe that there are some universals.

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I'm not Kantian in any way,

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but I do think that there are some universals.

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And the thing that actually brought me

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to even the concept of that was Jung.

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So Jung's concept of collective unconsciousness

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and then taking that thought

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and then applying it to looking through history

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and the most varied history you can find.

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So I would say probably religion is your earliest one

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that you can get for written history

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or written examples of human behavior and psychology

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at the furthest that we can look into it from man's hand

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to whatever the medium is, cuneiform or whatever.

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But as you do that, and then let's say going

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from Mesopotamia to India to Europe

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and just going from all these places,

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as disparate as they may seem,

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as many different cultures and ethnicities and religions

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and how the religions will vary quite a bit

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from monotheist to polytheist and so on and so forth.

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But then just seeing how there's all the through lines.

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And of course, Campbell, he did this

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much earlier than me thinking about it.

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But I think that by looking at things that way

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and starting to find the threads

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instead of always just looking at everything

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as being its own compartmentalized concept

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as if it only applies to this time, this people,

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like getting overly pomo about it

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is just a really idiotic postmodern.

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So you think that there is, just like with Joseph Campbell,

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there's a thread that connects all of these stories,

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narratives that we constructed for ourselves as we evolve.

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And that thread is grounded in some kind of absolute ideas

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of maybe on the morality side,

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which is the trickiest one of good and evil.

Josh Barnett (09:39.380)

Somewhat, yeah, I think that a lot of this stuff

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is just derived from a biological perspective.

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I feel like these things are innate within us.

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Do you think our innately humans are good?

Josh Barnett (09:50.740)

No, I don't.

Lex Fridman (09:52.820)

I feel like, I also feel like there's the issue of scale too.

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Like Nassim Taleb likes to talk about how he views his,

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the way he interacts with groups in terms of scale.

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What is this thing about like at the familial level,

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I'm a communist and then at the civic level,

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I'm a Republican or something.

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And at this other level,

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and then it goes on at the widest level,

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he's a libertarian or something of that nature.

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Like fundamentally human interaction changes.

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On scale. On scale.

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And scale and also from subjective

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to the environment around them.

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So, and I don't even mean environment

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just in the sake of physical environment, nature, right?

Josh Barnett (10:35.060)

Like nature is constantly trying to murder you.

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Well, it's not really trying.

Josh Barnett (10:37.780)

It's just nature's being nature.

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The universe is the universe.

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And at times it takes you out.

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It's just not with any particular compunction or prejudice.

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It's just, oops, you know, sorry, there's no more dodos.

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My bad.

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But don't you think the particular flavor

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of the complexity that is the human mind was created,

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like let me make an argument

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for that all people are fundamentally good.

Josh Barnett (11:04.860)

Okay.

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Is there's an evolutionary advantage

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to being, to striving to cooperate,

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to add more love to the world of like compassion, empathy,

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all that kind of stuff.

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And that the very thing that created the human mind

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was this evolutionary advantage,

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whatever the forces behind this evolutionary advantage.

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And scale, yes.

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So when we're dealing with a small tribe, sure.

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When you meet another tribe, maybe.

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There's other factors that are going into that.

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Let's say you scale up.

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And so your 150 has exceeded their 150.

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And like, you start to get to a certain point

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where you can't really be close enough

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to someone down the line of some of that next,

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like that 150 is 150, 150.

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And they just now all of a sudden become some guy, whatever.

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And when it comes to some guy, once it starts hitting scale,

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I don't know that it's capable.

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People can be as magnanimous to a stranger as to the known.

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If they orient themselves to be secure enough,

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because it does come to security, insecurity

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in one way or the other, either brought on by the unknown,

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brought on by an actual threat,

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brought on by even their own,

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as we would use the word insecurity in that

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their own insecurity within their own capabilities,

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their own belief in themselves,

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all these things can change things

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from being compassionate and what have you

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to at least at the very least, maybe not evil,

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but self interest driven to the point of a negative results

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for those that aren't, you know what I mean?

Lex Fridman (12:55.460)

Right.

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But another way to frame that is maybe it's less about scale

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and more about the amount of resources available.

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So if we're overflowing with resources

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in terms of security and safety,

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all the things you've mentioned,

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if we have more than enough resources,

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then the way we treat a stranger,

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the way we position ourselves towards that stranger

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might be in a way that allows us to be our real human selves

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as opposed to sort of our animal self.

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And therefore it's mostly about

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how clever can we descendants of Abe's be

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in coming up with all cool kinds of technologies

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and ways to efficiently use the resources we have

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such that we're not constrained.

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And my hope is that human innovation

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will outpace the growth of our,

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the number of people that are starving for resources.

Josh Barnett (13:52.980)

Yes, I think that there's a lot of rationality

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behind this argument.

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And in some ways I agree and in a lot of ways

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I see it as missing the point

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of how this experiment has been playing out across time.

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When you look at what, for one, it's like define resources.

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What is a resource of as humans would define it, right?

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Or wealth even.

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And so you can say, well, an iPhone's a resource,

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the internet's a resource, water obviously is a resource.

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But if we weigh them, what is more important

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to human beings, water, internet or iPhones?

Lex Fridman (14:41.500)

It's water, right?

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So if we look at resources, if we start with

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what do human beings need to live?

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I mean, actually live, not live here

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in this bullshit fantasy creation extension

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of our own ingenuity and a prison of our own creation

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and also a paradise of our own creation.

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But this is not how human beings normally live.

Josh Barnett (15:04.980)

This is all built upon stuff,

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it's built on concept, on idea and some of it's built

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on just, well, this is the paradigm so this is what you do.

Lex Fridman (15:15.860)

Human beings need food, they need water to survive,

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they need shelter from the elements

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and they need certain skills to perpetuate these things

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and be able to pass them down so that they can,

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so that these things don't become,

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you don't end up in this gap where you have

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to relearn things because if it's lost,

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then that time before you can get it back again

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is going to be dark ages of sorts

Josh Barnett (15:44.780)

or it's going to be highly detrimental to your group

Lex Fridman (15:48.220)

because not knowing how to fish, not knowing how to hunt,

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not knowing how to even clean and cook the game

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once you have it could be lethal.

Josh Barnett (15:58.380)

That's fascinating to think of that as a basic resource,

Lex Fridman (16:00.700)

the knowledge to attain the very low level things of water.

Josh Barnett (16:04.020)

Right, and we'll figure it out.

Lex Fridman (16:05.500)

We did it once before and we've done it over

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and over and over and over again.

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It's just costly.

Josh Barnett (16:11.020)

Yes, it has costs for sure.

Lex Fridman (16:14.500)

But when you think of how you look at the,

Josh Barnett (16:19.500)

well, we'll just deal with the first world of the West.

Lex Fridman (16:23.100)

You look at the pathway of Western civilization

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and its growth and then you look at how technology

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injected into it over time,

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how it magnifies things or pushes things

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at orders of magnitude faster

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and then the internet comes along and even faster.

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So you're watching industrial revolution to,

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what is it, the capacitor and then so on.

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It goes further and further.

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And as the internet and technology,

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especially on the electronic side of things,

Josh Barnett (16:56.740)

start increasing in capability,

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it massively outpaces even our necessity for it at times.

Josh Barnett (17:04.860)

It becomes, you know, plant obsolescence happens quicker

Lex Fridman (17:08.340)

and over and over and over again

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and wealth increases, increases, increases, increases

Lex Fridman (17:13.060)

in terms of the things that we're able to acquire, right?

Josh Barnett (17:16.380)

I mean, I've seen homeless people with smartphones,

Lex Fridman (17:19.340)

you know, so we're living in the most wealth laden,

Josh Barnett (17:23.660)

luxury laden age of all of humanity yet.

Lex Fridman (17:29.780)

What happens when we see calamity

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or people go on hard time?

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What are the things that they value?

Josh Barnett (17:36.420)

You know, what do people go to an argument

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about the cost of things that are luxury items generally

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and not necessity items?

Lex Fridman (17:44.380)

You know, we get into fights about things that are

Josh Barnett (17:50.380)

at the end of the day, not necessities to us.

Lex Fridman (17:53.140)

You know, people are so concerned about Netflix

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and the internet and personally,

Lex Fridman (17:58.060)

I'm very concerned about the internet

Josh Barnett (17:59.700)

because I look at it as my own little personal library

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of Alexandria in my pocket.

Josh Barnett (18:05.060)

That's what I love about it.

Lex Fridman (18:06.020)

And the ability to have a tool as effective as it is,

Josh Barnett (18:09.020)

even though I'm in a constant battle

Lex Fridman (18:10.740)

to not let that tool become a vice

Josh Barnett (18:13.860)

or to become something that actually

Lex Fridman (18:17.100)

brings me to a lower state.

Lex Fridman (18:19.020)

But are we willing, the question is over the,

Lex Fridman (18:21.900)

are we willing to murder each other over Netflix

Lex Fridman (18:24.780)

versus murder each other over water?

Lex Fridman (18:27.180)

We're willing to murder each other over water.

Josh Barnett (18:29.700)

That's a given.

Lex Fridman (18:30.740)

Right, but that's our animalistic selves.

Josh Barnett (18:33.060)

Well, it's also a necessity for, it's animalistic,

Lex Fridman (18:35.740)

but it's also either you do it or you don't, right?

Josh Barnett (18:38.220)

Like unless somebody's willing to share that water

Lex Fridman (18:40.380)

or if that water is of such a limited capability

Josh Barnett (18:45.940)

or such a limited amount,

Lex Fridman (18:47.500)

then you will have to murder to have that water.

Josh Barnett (18:50.980)

Netflix, the argument is the higher,

Lex Fridman (18:53.180)

we get up to this hierarchy of what we consider

Josh Barnett (18:57.540)

in Los Angeles resources,

Lex Fridman (19:00.300)

we're less willing to be, to commit violence.

Josh Barnett (19:02.940)

We're less willing to commit violence,

Lex Fridman (19:05.060)

I would say over Netflix,

Lex Fridman (19:06.020)

but we are willing to commit violence over Netflix,

Lex Fridman (19:07.860)

over everything associated with Netflix,

Josh Barnett (19:09.420)

over televisions, over sneakers,

Lex Fridman (19:11.660)

over, you know, I mean, when we look at a good,

Josh Barnett (19:17.940)

I mean, the majority of the stuff

Lex Fridman (19:20.060)

that came with the riots,

Josh Barnett (19:21.420)

I mean, it was used car dealerships, targets.

Lex Fridman (19:26.740)

I mean, and then you look and it's like, well, okay,

Josh Barnett (19:28.420)

well, what are people, what do they gotta,

Lex Fridman (19:30.420)

what are they so hell bent to get out of this whole thing?

Lex Fridman (19:34.780)

And I'm even talking about the ideological elements

Lex Fridman (19:36.660)

or anything like that.

Josh Barnett (19:37.500)

Just like, okay, something's going on,

Lex Fridman (19:38.860)

boom, looting, whatever, you know,

Lex Fridman (19:41.220)

what are you gonna loot?

Lex Fridman (19:42.660)

You know, you'll have AOC say, oh, people needing bread.

Josh Barnett (19:46.220)

I didn't see a single loaf of bread.

Lex Fridman (19:48.340)

You know, I saw televisions and shoes and you know,

Lex Fridman (19:52.140)

but to me, it is poetry in a sense,

Lex Fridman (19:54.660)

because you get to see who we,

Lex Fridman (19:57.860)

how we actually are operating, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:00:00.820)

and then different than the version in Europe.

Josh Barnett (1:00:02.540)

In the United States, the hero of the war

Lex Fridman (1:00:06.220)

is the United States.

Josh Barnett (1:00:07.500)

In Europe, there's a much more sad and solemn story

Lex Fridman (1:00:11.580)

of suffering and so on.

Josh Barnett (1:00:12.740)

Sure.

Lex Fridman (1:00:13.580)

In Russia, it's the Great.

Josh Barnett (1:00:15.300)

Patriotic War.

Lex Fridman (1:00:16.220)

Yes.

Josh Barnett (1:00:17.060)

It was a unifier of a sense.

Lex Fridman (1:00:19.100)

And it, I mean, yeah, I mean,

Josh Barnett (1:00:23.900)

you can't argue that war and conflict that,

Lex Fridman (1:00:28.020)

and or just even reducing that to stressors,

Josh Barnett (1:00:32.020)

agitation, suffering doesn't create human motivation.

Lex Fridman (1:00:36.260)

You know, we started this off.

Josh Barnett (1:00:37.220)

You brought up a Frankel.

Lex Fridman (1:00:38.580)

I'm like, yeah, Frankel's dope.

Josh Barnett (1:00:40.340)

Man, it serves for meaning.

Lex Fridman (1:00:41.860)

Maslow's great.

Lex Fridman (1:00:43.220)

And I talked to you about how I started to think like,

Lex Fridman (1:00:46.940)

man, do the ability for human beings to live

Lex Fridman (1:00:51.940)

and or potentially flourish

Lex Fridman (1:00:54.700)

in the worst environments you can think of

Josh Barnett (1:00:57.620)

is pretty incredible in and of itself.

Lex Fridman (1:00:59.980)

And that it's a crazy thought to think that

Josh Barnett (1:01:04.140)

without Frankel and Maslow ending up in concentration camps,

Lex Fridman (1:01:10.140)

do they write some of the most important books

Lex Fridman (1:01:13.900)

on philosophy in the 20th century?

Lex Fridman (1:01:16.260)

And that's insane on a lot of different levels.

Josh Barnett (1:01:20.060)

But, yeah, suffering is a creative force.

Lex Fridman (1:01:22.500)

I mean, I don't, do you think we'll always have war?

Josh Barnett (1:01:25.220)

Yes, we will always have war in some form or another.

Lex Fridman (1:01:28.900)

We need, quote unquote, air quotes,

Josh Barnett (1:01:32.700)

for those just listening, war to survive.

Lex Fridman (1:01:36.100)

We need war to flourish.

Josh Barnett (1:01:37.380)

We need at least.

Lex Fridman (1:01:38.260)

Can you explain the quote, the air quotes around the war?

Josh Barnett (1:01:40.500)

Well, because take, take, take, take the.

Lex Fridman (1:01:45.020)

You see wars as violence?

Josh Barnett (1:01:46.340)

No, wars are not violence.

Lex Fridman (1:01:47.660)

So like, so when we're talking.

Josh Barnett (1:01:48.500)

No, air quotes because while us getting on the mat

Lex Fridman (1:01:52.100)

or just getting on these hardwood floors

Lex Fridman (1:01:53.660)

and wrestling around is not literal war,

Lex Fridman (1:01:57.020)

it's war of a sorts.

Josh Barnett (1:01:59.740)

It is a diluted form of war.

Lex Fridman (1:02:01.940)

American football is a diluted form of war.

Josh Barnett (1:02:03.900)

All this, these are diluted forms of war.

Lex Fridman (1:02:05.860)

Tennis is a diluted form of war.

Lex Fridman (1:02:09.420)

And I think one of the best explanations I ever got

Lex Fridman (1:02:12.980)

from this, and another person very impactful

Josh Barnett (1:02:16.580)

on my life and outlook and thinking about things,

Lex Fridman (1:02:19.660)

Cormac McCarthy.

Lex Fridman (1:02:20.580)

And so in Blood Meridian, there's this fantastic speech

Lex Fridman (1:02:24.460)

about war given by the judge,

Josh Barnett (1:02:26.740)

which there's a ton of fantastic speeches

Lex Fridman (1:02:28.860)

on things given by the judge, yeah.

Josh Barnett (1:02:31.100)

All that exists in creation without my knowledge

Lex Fridman (1:02:33.060)

does so without my consent.

Josh Barnett (1:02:34.700)

Okay, that's pretty heavy.

Lex Fridman (1:02:36.780)

That's, that's hard.

Lex Fridman (1:02:38.140)

Go ahead, can you break that up?

Lex Fridman (1:02:39.140)

Can you say that again?

Josh Barnett (1:02:40.260)

All things that exist in creation,

Lex Fridman (1:02:43.540)

all things that exist without my knowledge

Josh Barnett (1:02:45.280)

do so without my consent.

Lex Fridman (1:02:49.260)

What does that mean?

Josh Barnett (1:02:50.460)

Well, I think from the judge's perspective,

Lex Fridman (1:02:53.600)

it's like, well, I didn't consent to that bird

Josh Barnett (1:02:56.460)

or that dog or this building or all this,

Lex Fridman (1:02:59.800)

like all of this, you know, I didn't create it,

Lex Fridman (1:03:02.140)

so it's done so without my consent.

Lex Fridman (1:03:03.860)

And if it's up to my consent,

Josh Barnett (1:03:05.740)

well, I'll design it how I want to.

Lex Fridman (1:03:08.060)

There's another similar look into how the judge is

Josh Barnett (1:03:11.020)

in that book is he would study everything

Lex Fridman (1:03:16.060)

everywhere he went.

Lex Fridman (1:03:17.460)

And so he's collected this group of nary do wells

Lex Fridman (1:03:21.020)

from all over to go on these hunts

Josh Barnett (1:03:25.060)

against certain tribes in the Southwest

Lex Fridman (1:03:29.900)

and getting paid by the US government,

Josh Barnett (1:03:31.300)

the Mexican government.

Lex Fridman (1:03:32.860)

So he's on these Indian hunts

Lex Fridman (1:03:36.500)

and yet they're going to all these different places

Lex Fridman (1:03:39.660)

and they would stay the night in a cave somewhere

Lex Fridman (1:03:43.860)

and he would find cave paintings,

Lex Fridman (1:03:44.940)

he would write them all down,

Josh Barnett (1:03:46.200)

or he would find old pieces.

Lex Fridman (1:03:47.820)

There's an example of him, the narrator,

Josh Barnett (1:03:50.980)

explaining how watching the judge and how he drawing,

Lex Fridman (1:03:53.940)

I mean, he's got this notebook just full of things,

Josh Barnett (1:03:56.660)

drawings and writings,

Lex Fridman (1:03:58.900)

and how he found like a piece of armor

Josh Barnett (1:04:02.140)

from a conquistador or something way back in the day,

Lex Fridman (1:04:04.220)

Spanish armor, and he draws it into his book

Lex Fridman (1:04:06.500)

and then crushes it.

Lex Fridman (1:04:07.780)

And so the reason we'll always have war

Josh Barnett (1:04:12.620)

in this society is because there's this struggle

Lex Fridman (1:04:16.340)

amongst people that want to be the designers.

Josh Barnett (1:04:18.540)

There's that, but I'm just saying

Lex Fridman (1:04:21.300)

that he's got this whole quote on war,

Josh Barnett (1:04:23.700)

like war is play, war is a game,

Lex Fridman (1:04:27.700)

and the difference is is that what's at stake.

Lex Fridman (1:04:30.620)

So all things are a game of some sort

Lex Fridman (1:04:33.900)

and you're putting up for it

Josh Barnett (1:04:35.460)

or what you're willing to put up for it

Lex Fridman (1:04:36.860)

determines whether or not you're going to participate or not.

Lex Fridman (1:04:40.160)

And all aspects of any game is war

Lex Fridman (1:04:45.660)

and it's just, what is at stake?

Josh Barnett (1:04:48.220)

If it's your life, it's a different story.

Lex Fridman (1:04:49.940)

If it's just a coin, it's another thing.

Josh Barnett (1:04:52.340)

A nice way to put it is if humans play a game

Lex Fridman (1:04:56.380)

in this kind of pursuit of creating,

Josh Barnett (1:05:01.380)

whatever the hell the reason is

Lex Fridman (1:05:02.860)

that we keep creating cooler and cooler things,

Josh Barnett (1:05:07.300)

it seems to be the result of a game

Lex Fridman (1:05:08.980)

that we naturally play, we naturally crave.

Josh Barnett (1:05:11.460)

I don't know, I mean, that's been the struggle of philosophy

Lex Fridman (1:05:14.660)

is to understand what is the underlying force of all that.

Lex Fridman (1:05:17.580)

Is it the will to power?

Lex Fridman (1:05:19.580)

I think will to power is a really great way

Josh Barnett (1:05:21.500)

of describing it.

Lex Fridman (1:05:23.500)

Do you want to be the winner of the game?

Josh Barnett (1:05:25.620)

No, not just, no, I don't look at will to power

Lex Fridman (1:05:27.660)

as being the winner of the game.

Josh Barnett (1:05:29.300)

Well, I mean, if we're going to get philosophical,

Lex Fridman (1:05:31.680)

yes, you want to be the winner of the game.

Lex Fridman (1:05:33.340)

What does winning the game define how you win?

Lex Fridman (1:05:36.260)

Everybody's going to define that win differently.

Josh Barnett (1:05:38.540)

You could define the win in the most base level

Lex Fridman (1:05:40.740)

like, oh, I got all the things.

Josh Barnett (1:05:44.020)

Well, if you got all those things

Lex Fridman (1:05:45.120)

without the needing component of fulfillment,

Josh Barnett (1:05:48.680)

then you're going to be a very unhappy person

Lex Fridman (1:05:50.460)

with a whole lot of things.

Lex Fridman (1:05:51.300)

But there's a self referential aspect to where, to me,

Lex Fridman (1:05:54.860)

the winner of the game is defined

Josh Barnett (1:05:56.660)

by the people playing the game.

Lex Fridman (1:05:58.580)

So if I'm playing a game, I want to win in the sense

Josh Barnett (1:06:04.220)

that most of the other people who are playing the game

Lex Fridman (1:06:06.940)

will say, yeah, that guy won.

Josh Barnett (1:06:08.860)

By our collective definition, if I just come up,

Lex Fridman (1:06:12.260)

listen, I'm sort of, if I come up with my own.

Josh Barnett (1:06:14.580)

That's a lot of weight on the external on you.

Lex Fridman (1:06:17.540)

Right, but that's how games seem to work.

Josh Barnett (1:06:21.100)

Somewhat.

Lex Fridman (1:06:21.940)

So I'm already a winner in my life

Josh Barnett (1:06:24.260)

by defining my own definition of success.

Lex Fridman (1:06:26.300)

I'm basically the best person in the world at doing me.

Josh Barnett (1:06:32.060)

At being Lex.

Lex Fridman (1:06:32.900)

Yeah, so like, and I'm really happy with that.

Josh Barnett (1:06:35.700)

That's a source of happiness.

Lex Fridman (1:06:37.140)

Well, I mean, think about it.

Lex Fridman (1:06:38.380)

Games are also iterated, right?

Lex Fridman (1:06:40.440)

So you start off with your game

Lex Fridman (1:06:42.820)

and then your game with your immediates

Lex Fridman (1:06:45.460)

and then the game further than that

Lex Fridman (1:06:46.980)

and the game further than that

Lex Fridman (1:06:47.940)

and then the game today and the game tomorrow

Lex Fridman (1:06:49.940)

and the game next week.

Lex Fridman (1:06:50.900)

And so it never ends.

Lex Fridman (1:06:52.480)

And if you try to keep thinking about it that way,

Lex Fridman (1:06:54.980)

no wonder people go crazy.

Lex Fridman (1:06:56.160)

But we don't want to think about things that way.

Lex Fridman (1:06:59.060)

We don't want to think about being towards death.

Josh Barnett (1:07:01.500)

We don't want to think about whether or not

Lex Fridman (1:07:04.820)

I'm going anywhere after this

Josh Barnett (1:07:06.420)

other than in the ground or what have you.

Lex Fridman (1:07:08.100)

Like, you know.

Josh Barnett (1:07:09.940)

All of these games are a sense of some distraction.

Lex Fridman (1:07:12.020)

This is where we brought up.

Josh Barnett (1:07:12.860)

Kind of, but I mean, it's violence is that

Lex Fridman (1:07:15.780)

we need to let this out.

Lex Fridman (1:07:18.580)

And so it is of our, kids need to wrestle and play

Lex Fridman (1:07:23.160)

just like animals need to wrestle and play.

Josh Barnett (1:07:25.160)

We need to have forms of competition.

Lex Fridman (1:07:27.460)

We need to have ways to test ourselves,

Lex Fridman (1:07:29.820)

to create when, what is it?

Lex Fridman (1:07:34.180)

When at peace a man of war makes war with himself.

Lex Fridman (1:07:36.860)

And so we need to be able to competently

Lex Fridman (1:07:39.720)

go at war with ourselves and go at war with our neighbor

Lex Fridman (1:07:42.380)

and go at war with our neighbor's neighbor

Lex Fridman (1:07:44.380)

in a way that is repeatable at the very least.

Lex Fridman (1:07:47.740)

So one way of saying that there will always be war,

Lex Fridman (1:07:50.620)

I mean, that's my hopeful view

Josh Barnett (1:07:54.060)

is that most of the war conducted in the future

Lex Fridman (1:07:56.740)

will be, like you said,

Josh Barnett (1:07:57.900)

the man must go to war with himself.

Lex Fridman (1:08:00.460)

That would be great.

Josh Barnett (1:08:01.820)

That's what to me love is,

Lex Fridman (1:08:04.620)

is like focusing on yourself and your own improvement

Lex Fridman (1:08:07.780)

and your own creativity and towards others feeling,

Lex Fridman (1:08:13.160)

sort of emphasizing cooperative behavior

Lex Fridman (1:08:15.820)

and compassion and empathy.

Lex Fridman (1:08:19.420)

It would be great.

Lex Fridman (1:08:20.240)

But I mean, you can have, well, I'll put it to you this way.

Lex Fridman (1:08:23.820)

If you have a whole community of Randians

Lex Fridman (1:08:29.660)

and a whole community of Ancoms,

Lex Fridman (1:08:32.660)

and they could all like, I don't know,

Josh Barnett (1:08:37.540)

toast of London on Netflix,

Lex Fridman (1:08:39.620)

and they love Netflix and they love the internet

Lex Fridman (1:08:41.900)

and they love picking apart Mon Comp with you.

Lex Fridman (1:08:46.860)

They love like, they like all these things,

Josh Barnett (1:08:49.020)

even the esoteric that they can get on with.

Lex Fridman (1:08:52.420)

But at the fundamental root,

Josh Barnett (1:08:55.660)

they cannot help but go to war

Lex Fridman (1:08:57.700)

because they are literally oil and water.

Josh Barnett (1:08:59.940)

No, but see, but they would,

Lex Fridman (1:09:01.540)

the very labels they assign to themselves

Josh Barnett (1:09:05.740)

would need to dissipate.

Lex Fridman (1:09:07.500)

Well, this is true.

Josh Barnett (1:09:08.340)

Well, then you would have to stop being

Lex Fridman (1:09:09.740)

whatever it is that you took on

Lex Fridman (1:09:11.100)

as your ideological or religious point, right?

Lex Fridman (1:09:14.740)

Yeah, I mean, there's some days I'm Ancom,

Josh Barnett (1:09:18.260)

some days I'm Ancaps and whatever the anarchic capital.

Lex Fridman (1:09:24.980)

I mean, it depends on the hour, the minute of the day,

Josh Barnett (1:09:28.260)

you constantly changing moods and embracing that flow,

Lex Fridman (1:09:31.220)

the change of opinions, of ideas.

Josh Barnett (1:09:34.380)

As there's some days like,

Lex Fridman (1:09:35.580)

I'm actually cognizant of the fact

Josh Barnett (1:09:37.300)

because I've been not getting my sleep.

Lex Fridman (1:09:39.180)

And after I get some sleep,

Josh Barnett (1:09:41.460)

I see I'm so much more optimistic about the world.

Lex Fridman (1:09:44.260)

The less and less sleep I get,

Josh Barnett (1:09:46.220)

the more sad and cynical I get.

Lex Fridman (1:09:48.020)

I can see that.

Josh Barnett (1:09:48.860)

There's an up and down constantly.

Lex Fridman (1:09:50.340)

I don't even let my, well, okay.

Josh Barnett (1:09:52.820)

I try not to let.

Lex Fridman (1:09:54.180)

And most days it's never a problem.

Josh Barnett (1:09:56.340)

Any sort of like, what the kids call it now,

Lex Fridman (1:10:00.340)

blackpilled way of thinking,

Josh Barnett (1:10:02.140)

be my over, the umbrella which I hang under.

Lex Fridman (1:10:07.380)

So we actually, to drag us back,

Lex Fridman (1:10:11.980)

can we talk about Carl Gotch and Cat Tressley?

Lex Fridman (1:10:14.580)

Because I do want to make sure I touch it.

Lex Fridman (1:10:18.460)

I mean, what, who were?

Lex Fridman (1:10:20.380)

Carl Gotch is.

Lex Fridman (1:10:22.100)

Is he the greatest catch wrestler?

Lex Fridman (1:10:23.620)

I don't know if he was the greatest catch wrestler ever.

Josh Barnett (1:10:26.820)

I don't, I mean, he's one of them for a myriad of,

Lex Fridman (1:10:30.860)

Carl Gotch, Billy Robinson.

Josh Barnett (1:10:35.380)

Gotch and Robinson's trainer, Billy Riley.

Lex Fridman (1:10:40.020)

So who are these figures and what did they bring to you?

Josh Barnett (1:10:41.860)

Joe Maeda, he's one of the greatest catch wrestlers ever

Lex Fridman (1:10:44.620)

because he's responsible for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

Josh Barnett (1:10:47.020)

Along with Cristal Gracie.

Lex Fridman (1:10:48.620)

Okay, there's so much of things I'd like to say here,

Lex Fridman (1:10:51.900)

but one of the things that catch wrestling

Lex Fridman (1:10:54.140)

seemed to espouse as a principle is that of violence.

Josh Barnett (1:10:57.900)

I just, the tournaments I competed at,

Lex Fridman (1:11:01.940)

the unfortunate thing,

Lex Fridman (1:11:03.260)

and we'll probably hopefully talk about it a little bit.

Lex Fridman (1:11:06.260)

They were disorganized and the level of competition

Josh Barnett (1:11:09.260)

was pretty low where people really sucked.

Lex Fridman (1:11:11.140)

Pretty typical.

Josh Barnett (1:11:12.740)

Is that typical, okay.

Lex Fridman (1:11:13.740)

Well, it's, I mean, think about local run of the mill

Josh Barnett (1:11:19.500)

Jiu Jitsu tournament versus IBJJF created,

Lex Fridman (1:11:22.660)

you know, a vast difference, so.

Lex Fridman (1:11:24.660)

So I, you know, but there is, to me as a human being,

Lex Fridman (1:11:30.140)

like intellectually, philosophically,

Josh Barnett (1:11:31.860)

it was more interesting to go to catch wrestling tournament.

Lex Fridman (1:11:34.300)

It seemed more real and honest

Josh Barnett (1:11:36.940)

because of the way they communicate about violence

Lex Fridman (1:11:39.900)

and aggression. I love that.

Lex Fridman (1:11:40.740)

So it is often more honest.

Lex Fridman (1:11:44.140)

I think that as.

Lex Fridman (1:11:44.980)

Who is that from?

Lex Fridman (1:11:45.820)

Does that originate from, gosh, is that really Rob said?

Josh Barnett (1:11:48.060)

Well, I mean, it originates from all wrestling

Lex Fridman (1:11:50.140)

in that even Wade Chalice,

Josh Barnett (1:11:52.620)

not a classically considered catch wrestler,

Lex Fridman (1:11:59.700)

yet the reason why he has the world record

Josh Barnett (1:12:02.620)

for most amount of world champions pinned

Lex Fridman (1:12:05.260)

or the record for pins in the NCAA is because,

Josh Barnett (1:12:09.420)

well, of course the idea is to put you on your back

Lex Fridman (1:12:11.700)

and pin you, but there's no way you're gonna let me do that.

Lex Fridman (1:12:15.340)

So how do I make it so that you want me to pin you?

Lex Fridman (1:12:20.060)

Well, it's by you put them in excruciating pain.

Lex Fridman (1:12:22.980)

So at the end of the day, you're both there.

Lex Fridman (1:12:27.340)

You both wanna win.

Josh Barnett (1:12:28.780)

Neither one wants to allow anything to the other.

Lex Fridman (1:12:31.860)

So how do I get you to lose to me?

Josh Barnett (1:12:36.500)

Well, I make it so unbearable for you

Lex Fridman (1:12:38.220)

that you decide losing is better than staying.

Lex Fridman (1:12:40.220)

So those two are so fascinating

Lex Fridman (1:12:42.460)

because so coming from Russia,

Josh Barnett (1:12:44.660)

I don't know if that's where I got it

Lex Fridman (1:12:46.540)

or if it's just my own predisposition

Josh Barnett (1:12:49.580)

is I always loved the,

Lex Fridman (1:12:52.260)

there's two ways to get you to want to pin yourself.

Josh Barnett (1:12:55.660)

One is to making it so painful not to pin yourself

Lex Fridman (1:12:59.140)

that you pin yourself or whatever.

Lex Fridman (1:13:00.980)

And the other is, it's sort of like a Bruce Lee,

Lex Fridman (1:13:03.940)

water flows, make it so easy to pin yourself.

Lex Fridman (1:13:07.500)

So it's technique, it's like the elegance,

Lex Fridman (1:13:09.980)

the ease of movement.

Josh Barnett (1:13:11.060)

This is the Satya brothers, Vasya, Satya,

Lex Fridman (1:13:15.980)

like the, just the elegance, the efficiency.

Josh Barnett (1:13:19.100)

Yeah, they're practically like ballet watching those guys.

Lex Fridman (1:13:20.940)

You know, it's incredible.

Josh Barnett (1:13:21.780)

Satya brothers are massive.

Lex Fridman (1:13:23.300)

And I'll also caveat a little bit that like,

Josh Barnett (1:13:27.980)

if you're approaching this from a Russian perspective,

Lex Fridman (1:13:31.900)

Russians are quite truthful about things,

Josh Barnett (1:13:36.580)

especially when it comes to something like combat.

Lex Fridman (1:13:38.420)

They just, this is how it is.

Lex Fridman (1:13:40.780)

And this is how it's going to be.

Lex Fridman (1:13:42.220)

It's honest. Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:13:43.420)

And honesty is what I really like about catch wrestling

Lex Fridman (1:13:46.620)

because I find that we, given any opportunity

Josh Barnett (1:13:49.820)

for us to be dishonest for any number of reasons,

Lex Fridman (1:13:52.500)

we're gonna, especially if it's a dishonesty

Lex Fridman (1:13:56.020)

towards a positive, right?

Lex Fridman (1:13:57.500)

Like, oh, well, you know, it's all technique

Lex Fridman (1:13:59.340)

and it's all this and it's the gentle art and blah.

Lex Fridman (1:14:02.460)

Bro, I have rolled with ADCC world champions,

Josh Barnett (1:14:06.740)

you know, some of the best you have ever heard of.

Lex Fridman (1:14:09.100)

There ain't a lot of gentleness when it comes to like,

Josh Barnett (1:14:12.100)

oh yeah, they wanted to sweep you and you said no.

Lex Fridman (1:14:15.220)

And then you did, said no again.

Lex Fridman (1:14:17.100)

And then you said no and attacked their leg.

Lex Fridman (1:14:19.260)

Yeah.

Josh Barnett (1:14:20.100)

It ceases to be all that gentle

Lex Fridman (1:14:21.700)

because at the end of the day,

Josh Barnett (1:14:23.060)

these dudes are strong as hell.

Lex Fridman (1:14:25.100)

They're flexible.

Josh Barnett (1:14:25.940)

They're all, I mean, they're,

Lex Fridman (1:14:27.340)

the difference between the athleticism

Lex Fridman (1:14:29.420)

and the ability to actually win is a pretty wide gap.

Lex Fridman (1:14:35.220)

The athleticism shows up,

Lex Fridman (1:14:37.220)

but then there's all that other extra

Lex Fridman (1:14:39.460)

and part of that is meanness and pain

Lex Fridman (1:14:42.460)

and getting what you need out of it.

Lex Fridman (1:14:45.460)

But see, there is a philosophical difference

Josh Barnett (1:14:47.980)

in the way it's thought because.

Lex Fridman (1:14:50.860)

I think some of it is just, they just in denial.

Josh Barnett (1:14:53.300)

Like, oh, people will, they like to,

Lex Fridman (1:14:55.140)

people like to espouse a lot of things as theory

Lex Fridman (1:14:57.460)

and then it's like, okay, let me watch.

Lex Fridman (1:14:59.020)

When they're, oh, you're not doing anything

Josh Barnett (1:15:00.980)

about what you said right now.

Lex Fridman (1:15:02.060)

In fact, you're doing the opposite.

Josh Barnett (1:15:03.580)

You're literally hurting that guy

Lex Fridman (1:15:05.660)

because your shit ain't working

Josh Barnett (1:15:09.260)

in the way that you'd like it to.

Lex Fridman (1:15:10.660)

So you're having to use strength.

Josh Barnett (1:15:12.020)

You're having to, it's one of my favorites,

Lex Fridman (1:15:13.260)

like, oh, you're using too much strength.

Lex Fridman (1:15:14.620)

And it's like, well, hold on.

Lex Fridman (1:15:16.260)

Do we want people not to use strength at this point

Lex Fridman (1:15:18.900)

to understand more of mechanics?

Lex Fridman (1:15:21.260)

Or are you trying to tell people

Josh Barnett (1:15:22.500)

if they use strength at all,

Lex Fridman (1:15:24.940)

that they're somehow bad at what they do?

Josh Barnett (1:15:26.700)

Cause you know, it's not my fault.

Lex Fridman (1:15:28.300)

You're not stronger than me.

Lex Fridman (1:15:29.140)

But see, I'm speaking to something else that's, that's.

Lex Fridman (1:15:32.660)

Well, I tend to think what it comes down to is like,

Josh Barnett (1:15:34.500)

strength is fine until you beat me with it.

Lex Fridman (1:15:37.860)

Then it sucks.

Josh Barnett (1:15:38.740)

Okay, so strength is another thing.

Lex Fridman (1:15:41.060)

I'm speaking, I'm thinking about more like anger.

Josh Barnett (1:15:44.580)

Oh, sure.

Lex Fridman (1:15:45.580)

Okay, so like.

Josh Barnett (1:15:46.420)

I've seen a lot of angry guys in jiu jitsu, I know that.

Lex Fridman (1:15:48.820)

Really?

Josh Barnett (1:15:49.660)

Mm hmm.

Lex Fridman (1:15:50.500)

Okay, okay, good, well, but let's talk about,

Josh Barnett (1:15:51.740)

let's talk about the highest level of competitions.

Lex Fridman (1:15:55.300)

There's a book called Wrestling Tough.

Josh Barnett (1:15:56.860)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:15:57.700)

It's a really good book.

Josh Barnett (1:15:58.540)

There's, I've encountered in my life a few,

Lex Fridman (1:16:01.860)

especially in wrestling,

Josh Barnett (1:16:02.860)

people who really try to find a way to use anger,

Lex Fridman (1:16:08.060)

to get really angry at their opponent.

Josh Barnett (1:16:10.260)

Not like stupid anger, but just like.

Lex Fridman (1:16:12.660)

Intense, pointed anger distilled into something

Josh Barnett (1:16:19.100)

that you can use as fuel.

Lex Fridman (1:16:20.740)

And like, I remember this story.

Josh Barnett (1:16:22.500)

I don't know where I read it.

Lex Fridman (1:16:23.420)

Might be Wrestling Tough,

Josh Barnett (1:16:24.740)

where a person was imagining that their opponent

Lex Fridman (1:16:28.180)

just raped their mother, raped their girlfriend

Josh Barnett (1:16:31.420)

or something like that,

Lex Fridman (1:16:32.260)

to create this like method acting thing in their head

Josh Barnett (1:16:35.020)

to be like, to snap them out of this polite interaction

Lex Fridman (1:16:38.820)

of usual like athletic convention and like.

Josh Barnett (1:16:43.060)

You know, that's a design of necessity.

Lex Fridman (1:16:46.460)

So my anecdote for this was,

Josh Barnett (1:16:50.540)

I was sitting with backstage before a fight,

Lex Fridman (1:16:54.620)

not my fight.

Lex Fridman (1:16:55.860)

And I'm working with this guy and this dude is,

Lex Fridman (1:16:58.940)

this is a world champion guy.

Lex Fridman (1:17:00.980)

And he's competed at the highest levels.

Lex Fridman (1:17:03.740)

And he looks at me and he goes,

Lex Fridman (1:17:08.500)

you know, do you ever get nervous before fights?

Lex Fridman (1:17:11.540)

And I looked at him and I went, no, I don't.

Lex Fridman (1:17:14.660)

And he just looks at me and he's like,

Lex Fridman (1:17:15.780)

fuck man, I'm so nervous.

Lex Fridman (1:17:17.260)

You know, how do you do it, man?

Lex Fridman (1:17:18.580)

Or, you know, I wish it could be like you.

Lex Fridman (1:17:19.860)

And I said, you know what?

Lex Fridman (1:17:21.320)

That doesn't mean that what I'm doing is better.

Josh Barnett (1:17:24.100)

It's just what is necessary for me.

Lex Fridman (1:17:26.060)

It's the way I am.

Lex Fridman (1:17:27.420)

And I told him, so this anecdote goes into another anecdote.

Lex Fridman (1:17:31.500)

This is a Family Guy episode, I guess.

Josh Barnett (1:17:33.260)

So, where some, another famous high level guy told me

Lex Fridman (1:17:39.560)

about this experience with a world champion boxer in Japan.

Lex Fridman (1:17:45.780)

And this guy would get insanely nervous and worked up

Lex Fridman (1:17:49.580)

and anxious before his matches.

Lex Fridman (1:17:51.500)

And he hated it and hated it and hated it.

Lex Fridman (1:17:53.560)

And so he wanted to get rid of that feeling.

Lex Fridman (1:17:56.100)

So he went to a hypnotist for a bunch of sessions

Lex Fridman (1:17:58.460)

and managed to, and he goes in and next fight,

Josh Barnett (1:18:02.340)

he's cool as a cucumber and doesn't perform and loses.

Lex Fridman (1:18:06.260)

And so what I said, going back to anecdote one,

Josh Barnett (1:18:10.020)

was, you know, whatever is necessary for you

Lex Fridman (1:18:14.420)

to get yourself in the best state of being right now

Josh Barnett (1:18:18.180)

to compete, whatever that may be,

Lex Fridman (1:18:20.540)

it could be absolute stress and fear,

Josh Barnett (1:18:23.660)

it could be anger, it could be calmness,

Lex Fridman (1:18:25.820)

it could be whatever.

Lex Fridman (1:18:26.780)

But there is a, but there is a state

Lex Fridman (1:18:31.660)

at which you need to be in to do your best.

Lex Fridman (1:18:34.380)

And you as the individual, you have to find that.

Lex Fridman (1:18:36.700)

Can you comment on Tyson, Mike Tyson?

Josh Barnett (1:18:40.940)

Oh, yeah, that thing.

Lex Fridman (1:18:42.780)

So first, so he, there's two things I wanna,

Lex Fridman (1:18:45.140)

so he's a, in terms of fear, there's a clip there,

Lex Fridman (1:18:48.580)

I think from a documentary where he talks about

Josh Barnett (1:18:50.500)

he is like fully afraid as he walks up to the ring

Lex Fridman (1:18:54.820)

and as he gets closer and closer and closer,

Josh Barnett (1:18:56.380)

he gets more confident until he gets in

Lex Fridman (1:18:58.620)

and then he's a god or something like that.

Josh Barnett (1:19:00.960)

That coupled with his statement on Joe Rogan

Lex Fridman (1:19:05.700)

that he gets aroused at the possibility of true,

Josh Barnett (1:19:10.780)

like of hurting somebody in the ring.

Lex Fridman (1:19:12.760)

So like he gets aroused at the violence.

Josh Barnett (1:19:16.580)

I like it because it's coupled to your basically statement

Lex Fridman (1:19:20.420)

that we need to own, to find our own unique way

Josh Barnett (1:19:23.860)

of existing at our top level of performance.

Lex Fridman (1:19:28.900)

And that perhaps is Mike Tyson.

Lex Fridman (1:19:30.300)

But do you think there's something more deeply universal

Lex Fridman (1:19:33.100)

to the Mike Tyson speaking to the fact

Lex Fridman (1:19:35.900)

that he's aroused at the possibility of violence?

Lex Fridman (1:19:37.740)

Yeah, I do actually.

Josh Barnett (1:19:38.680)

Although I don't think that it always equates to arousal

Lex Fridman (1:19:41.900)

for people, in fact, I would say in general, it doesn't.

Josh Barnett (1:19:45.220)

I can say I've never had a boner in the ring.

Lex Fridman (1:19:47.460)

In fact, if anything, old combat cock is like,

Josh Barnett (1:19:50.160)

we're not hanging around, we're leaving, we're going up.

Lex Fridman (1:19:52.780)

We're taking off, we don't want anything to do with this.

Josh Barnett (1:19:55.080)

You have fun, come back to us when you have something

Lex Fridman (1:19:57.860)

warmer, softer, smells better.

Lex Fridman (1:20:00.200)

But the power, the feeling of aliveness,

Lex Fridman (1:20:04.900)

yeah, I could see it.

Josh Barnett (1:20:07.380)

Back to even the concept of the Ubermensch,

Lex Fridman (1:20:09.360)

I feel like the states, the highest states of being

Josh Barnett (1:20:12.580)

I've ever been in were in the midst of conflict.

Lex Fridman (1:20:15.900)

I felt like that was the times,

Josh Barnett (1:20:17.520)

those are the moments in my life where I felt like

Lex Fridman (1:20:20.020)

I was at the highest level of being as a human in existence.

Lex Fridman (1:20:25.100)

But yet, even being in that state was not,

Lex Fridman (1:20:28.860)

it was not something that you could interact with

Josh Barnett (1:20:31.220)

people that weren't in that state with you.

Lex Fridman (1:20:33.180)

They wouldn't get it, you would almost seem,

Lex Fridman (1:20:34.700)

and to be that way all the time,

Lex Fridman (1:20:36.540)

either A, might drive you mad, or B, is you're not,

Josh Barnett (1:20:40.900)

you're something that's untenable to the rest of society.

Lex Fridman (1:20:43.300)

You can't function with everybody else.

Josh Barnett (1:20:45.420)

It will not work.

Lex Fridman (1:20:46.740)

It's just like you said with the Ubermensch,

Josh Barnett (1:20:48.220)

it's like it's perhaps that ideal

Lex Fridman (1:20:50.220)

is not something you can hold for long.

Josh Barnett (1:20:52.180)

That's the very nature of it is.

Lex Fridman (1:20:53.620)

Yeah, well, there was an example in The Spoke Zarathustra

Josh Barnett (1:20:56.700)

about a snake being down the person's throat

Lex Fridman (1:21:00.860)

and biting it, and then having this maniacal laughter

Josh Barnett (1:21:06.060)

erupting, and to me it was, at least I read it as,

Lex Fridman (1:21:12.060)

yeah, okay, there's this insane moment that isn't forever,

Lex Fridman (1:21:16.780)

but that it is life and death, and the overcoming it

Lex Fridman (1:21:21.500)

is the thing that all of a sudden gives you

Lex Fridman (1:21:24.620)

that tapping into your highest state, right?

Lex Fridman (1:21:27.540)

This is, man is a chasm, a tightrope

Josh Barnett (1:21:32.140)

between man and Ubermensch.

Lex Fridman (1:21:35.740)

Well, I don't wanna leave your thought about,

Josh Barnett (1:21:39.500)

we'll call those things flourishes

Lex Fridman (1:21:42.260)

to the aspect of Tyson's interpretation

Josh Barnett (1:21:47.180)

or his expression of his feelings in combat,

Lex Fridman (1:21:51.040)

and so I gave this anecdote to the guy,

Lex Fridman (1:21:53.820)

and my first anecdote to that athlete I was working with,

Lex Fridman (1:21:57.200)

and I said, you know, there isn't a superior way

Josh Barnett (1:22:00.200)

in this sense.

Lex Fridman (1:22:01.040)

There is the way that works for you.

Josh Barnett (1:22:02.660)

That may be something you can implement to other people

Lex Fridman (1:22:05.740)

if you find that person,

Josh Barnett (1:22:06.960)

because we all have different personalities,

Lex Fridman (1:22:08.580)

and to me that's an absolute.

Josh Barnett (1:22:11.240)

I don't wanna, don't come at me

Lex Fridman (1:22:13.580)

with all your other fucking social sciences crap.

Josh Barnett (1:22:16.580)

No, we have distinct personalities.

Lex Fridman (1:22:18.660)

That personality, who you really are,

Lex Fridman (1:22:21.380)

and this, again, Heidegger, Dasein, being authentic.

Lex Fridman (1:22:25.260)

If you're authentic with who you are, goods and bads,

Josh Barnett (1:22:28.060)

you will know how to create what that is,

Lex Fridman (1:22:30.100)

and for me, violence and fighting and conflict

Josh Barnett (1:22:33.840)

was something that always felt normal to me,

Lex Fridman (1:22:36.980)

and I don't mean normal in, like I grew up in a war zone

Josh Barnett (1:22:40.220)

or an abusive household or something like that.

Lex Fridman (1:22:42.980)

I just meant that, and I was a kid who was very

Josh Barnett (1:22:47.300)

joyful and inquisitive,

Lex Fridman (1:22:50.780)

and spent a lot of time around older people, of all things,

Lex Fridman (1:22:54.740)

and also, while I don't think I have much capability

Lex Fridman (1:22:58.840)

toward engineering, my mom said that one of the first things

Josh Barnett (1:23:02.200)

as like a little baby,

Lex Fridman (1:23:03.540)

when she put me in my sister's old crib,

Josh Barnett (1:23:06.180)

instead of my sister who just milled about

Lex Fridman (1:23:08.700)

and was fine with it all,

Josh Barnett (1:23:10.020)

the first thing I did was I completely deconstructed it.

Lex Fridman (1:23:12.060)

I didn't break it.

Josh Barnett (1:23:12.900)

I figured out how to pull it apart.

Lex Fridman (1:23:14.500)

Curiosity about the world, and yet,

Lex Fridman (1:23:16.040)

that wasn't in conflict with the idea of violence?

Lex Fridman (1:23:18.620)

No, not at all, and so being a very joyful and nice kid,

Lex Fridman (1:23:23.180)

but kids are kids, and if kids can find that you respond

Lex Fridman (1:23:29.300)

maybe more easily to agitation, they will agitate you,

Lex Fridman (1:23:34.580)

and if you should stand out in some way

Lex Fridman (1:23:36.340)

by being taller or bigger or something, or caring,

Josh Barnett (1:23:40.260)

especially, they will agitate you.

Lex Fridman (1:23:42.740)

They don't really fully understand it either,

Lex Fridman (1:23:44.660)

and so I don't hold anything against any of the kids

Lex Fridman (1:23:47.300)

that used to pick on me or whatever,

Josh Barnett (1:23:48.800)

especially at the youngest ages.

Lex Fridman (1:23:50.540)

Man, they don't know shit either, so,

Lex Fridman (1:23:54.140)

but once that line was pushed, for me it was,

Lex Fridman (1:23:57.940)

oh, well, I was being cool.

Josh Barnett (1:24:00.400)

Now you're being uncool.

Lex Fridman (1:24:02.420)

Well, then that gives me license for everything,

Lex Fridman (1:24:04.500)

and so, boom, we would just go at it,

Lex Fridman (1:24:06.300)

or kids that would try to initiate a fight,

Lex Fridman (1:24:07.940)

and I was like, okay, and being in that moment

Lex Fridman (1:24:12.000)

of just going to town with someone else,

Josh Barnett (1:24:14.700)

it just felt like this is, this is.

Lex Fridman (1:24:18.860)

I belong here.

Josh Barnett (1:24:19.780)

Yeah, it was never a problem for me.

Lex Fridman (1:24:23.180)

In fact, if anything, what I had to understand was,

Josh Barnett (1:24:27.620)

well, not only did I learn the hard way,

Lex Fridman (1:24:29.780)

that it doesn't matter, at the end of the day,

Josh Barnett (1:24:32.940)

it doesn't really matter what anybody else does

Lex Fridman (1:24:36.080)

if your response in violence, even to their violence,

Josh Barnett (1:24:41.380)

if you're the winner,

Lex Fridman (1:24:42.740)

is often going to be penalized severely.

Josh Barnett (1:24:46.620)

Society, state apparatus, they don't want any of that.

Lex Fridman (1:24:51.300)

They wanna be the only arbiter of violence

Josh Barnett (1:24:53.500)

in the world, always.

Lex Fridman (1:24:55.460)

But I learned a very difficult lesson with that,

Lex Fridman (1:24:58.200)

and it was really impactful in a negative way on me,

Lex Fridman (1:25:01.140)

but also I had to learn, on an individual sense,

Josh Barnett (1:25:05.300)

to, you need to manage violence, too,

Lex Fridman (1:25:08.120)

because, hey, if someone attacks you

Josh Barnett (1:25:11.940)

or starts a fight with you and you go at it,

Lex Fridman (1:25:15.180)

okay, beating them up is one thing,

Josh Barnett (1:25:18.060)

trying to grab a handful of broken glass from the street

Lex Fridman (1:25:21.260)

and throw it in their face,

Josh Barnett (1:25:22.380)

maybe that's a bit much at seven.

Lex Fridman (1:25:25.520)

So you need to learn what level is necessary,

Lex Fridman (1:25:30.620)

and you need to learn what comes with all,

Lex Fridman (1:25:33.580)

what's the responsibility of,

Josh Barnett (1:25:35.420)

when you enact violence, I mean, you take on something

Lex Fridman (1:25:38.140)

when you have a responsibility for that.

Josh Barnett (1:25:40.660)

This is the extension of your actions.

Lex Fridman (1:25:45.580)

But as I got older, and especially as I found sports,

Lex Fridman (1:25:49.420)

and then combat sports,

Lex Fridman (1:25:51.980)

now this was a place for me to flourish,

Lex Fridman (1:25:54.900)

and to the point where I was more myself in that space

Lex Fridman (1:26:00.040)

than I was outside of it until time enough

Josh Barnett (1:26:02.780)

where I could learn to get this back together again.

Lex Fridman (1:26:05.940)

And I never say that I'll merge the two

Josh Barnett (1:26:09.660)

or anything like that.

Lex Fridman (1:26:10.500)

No, all what happened,

Josh Barnett (1:26:16.460)

my journey from adolescence on to manhood,

Lex Fridman (1:26:22.500)

a huge portion of it,

Josh Barnett (1:26:24.220)

besides the normal finding yourself, whatever, whatever,

Lex Fridman (1:26:27.220)

actually what it was was getting back to who I always was.

Josh Barnett (1:26:33.100)

Getting back to the kid.

Lex Fridman (1:26:33.940)

The curious kid, the kind kid.

Josh Barnett (1:26:35.140)

Getting back to the guy

Lex Fridman (1:26:36.500)

that I should have been allowed to become

Josh Barnett (1:26:38.940)

instead of what happened under the pressures of other things.

Lex Fridman (1:26:44.460)

And the attempt for society and certain people

Josh Barnett (1:26:50.540)

within managerial positions to compress what that was

Lex Fridman (1:26:55.540)

into something that they found more suitable.

Josh Barnett (1:26:58.100)

Yeah, but those pressures allow you

Lex Fridman (1:26:59.260)

to discover this little world, forbidden world,

Josh Barnett (1:27:02.300)

in many ways, of violence that you could explore.

Lex Fridman (1:27:05.620)

Through sport, you can explore it,

Lex Fridman (1:27:07.380)

and it's more socially acceptable to explore it through sport.

Lex Fridman (1:27:11.420)

For sure.

Lex Fridman (1:27:12.420)

But even then, at times, it's socially unacceptable.

Lex Fridman (1:27:16.540)

So I beat Sem Schilt.

Josh Barnett (1:27:21.340)

He cut my right eyebrow.

Lex Fridman (1:27:24.020)

I cut him and busted his nose,

Lex Fridman (1:27:25.700)

and he's bleeding all over me as I have an armbar on top.

Lex Fridman (1:27:28.780)

I'm getting, you know, it's raining blood.

Josh Barnett (1:27:31.740)

Quote some slayer from a lacerated Sem Schilt,

Lex Fridman (1:27:35.860)

bleeding in his horror, creating my structures.

Josh Barnett (1:27:38.540)

Now I shall rain him blood.

Lex Fridman (1:27:39.580)

But I win the fight, armbar, nasty one.

Josh Barnett (1:27:46.660)

I get on my feet, and the first thing I do

Lex Fridman (1:27:48.860)

is I wipe all the blood off onto my hands,

Lex Fridman (1:27:52.180)

and I lick it, and I do my thing.

Lex Fridman (1:27:55.580)

And all the MMA journalists freaked out.

Josh Barnett (1:27:59.380)

Dana Wise, like, man, I don't know about that.

Lex Fridman (1:28:01.100)

You know, we don't want him doing,

Josh Barnett (1:28:02.740)

everybody had this huge problem.

Lex Fridman (1:28:04.900)

And then some folks would even contend,

Josh Barnett (1:28:08.700)

oh, you know, you're trying to do,

Lex Fridman (1:28:10.460)

like, no, no, no, this isn't planned.

Josh Barnett (1:28:12.260)

I don't think of these things.

Lex Fridman (1:28:13.780)

This is how I really feel.

Josh Barnett (1:28:14.980)

This is who I really am.

Lex Fridman (1:28:16.860)

And, you know, it was even kind of comical after the fact,

Josh Barnett (1:28:21.100)

you know, and BJ Penn was on the very card with me,

Lex Fridman (1:28:24.180)

watching him at some point in his career all of a sudden

Josh Barnett (1:28:27.100)

win fights and then do this licking the glove thing,

Lex Fridman (1:28:29.780)

and everyone thinks it's the coolest thing ever.

Lex Fridman (1:28:31.260)

And I'm like, hey, fuck faces.

Lex Fridman (1:28:33.500)

I did this in 2002 or one, 2001,

Lex Fridman (1:28:38.660)

and BJ Penn actually back then was like,

Lex Fridman (1:28:40.420)

dude, you're a badass, you're a killer, you know?

Lex Fridman (1:28:43.500)

Where did that come from?

Lex Fridman (1:28:45.100)

Because that seems like a deeply human moment.

Josh Barnett (1:28:46.980)

I could say, I could just be, you know, goofy about it

Lex Fridman (1:28:49.820)

and call it orgiastic to align with Titan.

Lex Fridman (1:28:52.340)

Are we back to Mike Tyson?

Lex Fridman (1:28:53.700)

Yeah, but Tyson, but no, no, it isn't, it's beyond that.

Lex Fridman (1:29:00.180)

Is it a celebration of human nature?

Lex Fridman (1:29:01.020)

I've had some pretty decent orgasms

Josh Barnett (1:29:02.660)

in my life at this point, I'm 43.

Lex Fridman (1:29:04.300)

So, but no, none have ever compared to that.

Josh Barnett (1:29:06.340)

Like I said, it is a feeling of highest being to me.

Lex Fridman (1:29:09.620)

And I...

Josh Barnett (1:29:10.460)

It's your Ubermensch moment.

Lex Fridman (1:29:11.900)

This is where I feel like the restrictions

Josh Barnett (1:29:15.620)

of general existence in society are gone.

Lex Fridman (1:29:20.140)

And I get to fully live in a state

Josh Barnett (1:29:23.740)

that feels more meaningful, of the most meaning.

Lex Fridman (1:29:26.540)

You know, I think of it as life and death.

Lex Fridman (1:29:28.060)

And it's just, it is the way I'm built.

Lex Fridman (1:29:32.900)

And I don't have, I've never had any problem

Josh Barnett (1:29:36.020)

applying violence.

Lex Fridman (1:29:36.940)

Like it doesn't, I don't know where it comes from

Josh Barnett (1:29:39.700)

or how you would define it or whatever,

Lex Fridman (1:29:41.180)

if you want to stick me under in a psychologist chair,

Lex Fridman (1:29:44.580)

but like I don't, there's a part of me

Lex Fridman (1:29:47.420)

that can just like, no, if I'm gonna apply,

Josh Barnett (1:29:49.660)

I can apply violence to any level and be okay with it.

Lex Fridman (1:29:52.820)

And it doesn't, I don't lose sleep.

Josh Barnett (1:29:54.900)

It doesn't bother me.

Lex Fridman (1:29:56.420)

It's not a problem.

Josh Barnett (1:29:57.860)

It was me learning how to fully understand violence,

Lex Fridman (1:30:04.660)

humans, and the broader perspective

Josh Barnett (1:30:07.380)

that allowed me to think about things

Lex Fridman (1:30:08.980)

and like, well, what do I really want to accomplish

Lex Fridman (1:30:12.780)

with my actions in the world just on a whole?

Lex Fridman (1:30:15.180)

You know, not compartmentalizing my sporting career.

Josh Barnett (1:30:18.860)

Even when I get in the ring,

Lex Fridman (1:30:21.260)

I don't have any mercy generally.

Lex Fridman (1:30:24.460)

And if I do, it's because I make a really deliberate attempt

Lex Fridman (1:30:30.260)

to be in a state where I can have mercy.

Josh Barnett (1:30:33.380)

If I just go in there to fight with everything I got,

Lex Fridman (1:30:36.620)

there is zero mercy.

Josh Barnett (1:30:37.460)

The natural state of violence.

Lex Fridman (1:30:38.300)

There's nothing, there's nothing that will hold me back

Josh Barnett (1:30:40.100)

other than the referee and that's that.

Lex Fridman (1:30:42.860)

You know, I know I agreed to be allowed to do

Lex Fridman (1:30:45.980)

and not to do, but within that, no.

Lex Fridman (1:30:49.420)

And I expect it to be done to me.

Lex Fridman (1:30:51.980)

But in terms of values, in terms of seeing what,

Lex Fridman (1:30:56.300)

to me, violence is just yet another canvas

Josh Barnett (1:31:01.580)

that humans can paint beautifully on.

Lex Fridman (1:31:04.860)

Clearly, I mean, we have venerated the violent.

Josh Barnett (1:31:07.720)

There are communists that venerate the violent

Lex Fridman (1:31:11.840)

on their behalf.

Josh Barnett (1:31:12.920)

There are national socialists

Lex Fridman (1:31:14.480)

that venerate the violent there.

Lex Fridman (1:31:16.240)

And then if you remove it from an ideological perspective,

Lex Fridman (1:31:19.240)

we venerate the violent when they're a hero.

Josh Barnett (1:31:23.680)

We venerate the violent in our religion.

Lex Fridman (1:31:26.980)

Well, I mean, I guess some people venerate the violence

Lex Fridman (1:31:29.240)

of Yahweh and Sodom and Gomorrah, right?

Lex Fridman (1:31:32.360)

So, or do we say Jehovah?

Josh Barnett (1:31:34.720)

I don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:31:35.560)

Is there, you've already mentioned one,

Lex Fridman (1:31:38.920)

but is there a fight where you've achieved

Lex Fridman (1:31:42.520)

the highest of heights for your own personal being

Josh Barnett (1:31:46.180)

just when you look within yourself

Lex Fridman (1:31:48.440)

that you're the proudest of,

Lex Fridman (1:31:49.860)

or maybe it was your most beautiful creation?

Lex Fridman (1:31:51.900)

Is there something that stands out?

Josh Barnett (1:31:52.740)

Yeah, there are a few, actually.

Lex Fridman (1:31:54.880)

Fighting Semishield and a rematch.

Josh Barnett (1:31:57.040)

Well, the first one was pretty good, too.

Lex Fridman (1:31:58.840)

But the rematch was, I was suffering,

Josh Barnett (1:32:01.640)

I had suffered prior, the week prior,

Lex Fridman (1:32:04.980)

to food poisoning.

Lex Fridman (1:32:07.360)

And so while my abs are looking all right,

Lex Fridman (1:32:11.080)

I, in the ring, didn't have the power that I expected to.

Lex Fridman (1:32:17.400)

And I was struggling in ways,

Lex Fridman (1:32:20.560)

in some of the grappling with the submission stuff

Josh Barnett (1:32:22.740)

that I hadn't accounted for.

Lex Fridman (1:32:24.200)

Just exhaustion or mental exhaustion?

Josh Barnett (1:32:26.760)

No, I mean, just physical,

Lex Fridman (1:32:28.680)

I wasn't back up to 100% in terms of just power output.

Lex Fridman (1:32:32.080)

And Semi was, well, he's always seven foot tall.

Lex Fridman (1:32:36.760)

But this time he was, the first time I fought him,

Josh Barnett (1:32:38.600)

he was 260, or 257, or 260 something, something like that.

Lex Fridman (1:32:44.900)

This time he was like 290.

Lex Fridman (1:32:46.760)

And so he was a significantly bigger cat.

Lex Fridman (1:32:48.940)

And he's a big dude.

Lex Fridman (1:32:51.160)

And I just remember being up against the ropes with him,

Lex Fridman (1:32:57.940)

changing levels, trying to take him down.

Lex Fridman (1:33:00.280)

And he's fighting, and he's hippin'.

Lex Fridman (1:33:01.760)

And I just thought in my head,

Josh Barnett (1:33:03.560)

there's no fuckin way I'm gonna lose this fight.

Lex Fridman (1:33:05.320)

There's no way, you are not going to beat me.

Josh Barnett (1:33:07.200)

It's not gonna happen.

Lex Fridman (1:33:08.560)

And I armbarred him, the other arm.

Josh Barnett (1:33:11.120)

Even out of the fact he's like,

Lex Fridman (1:33:12.520)

man, I really wanted to get you for that,

Josh Barnett (1:33:13.840)

I wanted to get that match back.

Lex Fridman (1:33:15.000)

And then you fuckin got my other arm, dick.

Lex Fridman (1:33:16.760)

And I'm like, eh, dude, I still love you though.

Lex Fridman (1:33:19.280)

You know, and that.

Lex Fridman (1:33:20.180)

But the whole time you're like,

Lex Fridman (1:33:22.240)

so this has to do with the dichotomy

Josh Barnett (1:33:24.800)

of you're feeling your worst.

Lex Fridman (1:33:27.080)

And having to overcome.

Josh Barnett (1:33:28.280)

You're like literally mentally telling yourself

Lex Fridman (1:33:30.300)

there's no way.

Josh Barnett (1:33:31.140)

There's no fuckin way I'm gonna lose this fight.

Lex Fridman (1:33:32.760)

And then there's even my last bare knuckle match.

Lex Fridman (1:33:35.400)

And getting in the ring and fighting bare knuckle boxing

Lex Fridman (1:33:39.480)

for the first time.

Lex Fridman (1:33:41.600)

And just thinking, just being in a great state.

Lex Fridman (1:33:45.480)

And just looking so forward to seeing.

Josh Barnett (1:33:48.800)

I mean, I called someone.

Lex Fridman (1:33:51.520)

I was talking to them the night before.

Lex Fridman (1:33:52.720)

And I said, yeah, well, I video called you

Lex Fridman (1:33:56.080)

because this face might not look like this

Josh Barnett (1:33:58.820)

when I see you next.

Lex Fridman (1:33:59.960)

And they're just like, ooh, uh, okay.

Josh Barnett (1:34:03.200)

That's not just like empty trash talk.

Lex Fridman (1:34:05.040)

That's like a clarity of mind and a seriousness about.

Josh Barnett (1:34:09.040)

I go, I might die.

Lex Fridman (1:34:11.000)

Most, pretty high chance of being deformed some way.

Josh Barnett (1:34:14.760)

So, but fuck it.

Lex Fridman (1:34:16.040)

I don't really care.

Josh Barnett (1:34:16.880)

Are you, do you think about,

Lex Fridman (1:34:17.860)

are you accepting your own death?

Josh Barnett (1:34:19.560)

Yes, 100%.

Lex Fridman (1:34:21.280)

Yeah, I, in fact, and that's, in a strange way,

Josh Barnett (1:34:24.120)

that's partially what makes it so elevated

Lex Fridman (1:34:26.360)

in terms of my sense of feeling.

Josh Barnett (1:34:29.160)

By being able to have death at my side, it feels good.

Lex Fridman (1:34:36.960)

And to be there and to think that this could be the one,

Lex Fridman (1:34:42.120)

like, why not, you know?

Lex Fridman (1:34:43.760)

I'm not a religious person at all,

Josh Barnett (1:34:46.120)

even though I very much have to seem,

Lex Fridman (1:34:48.480)

it seems to bang on the drum about the usefulness

Josh Barnett (1:34:50.800)

or understanding the usefulness of religion for people.

Lex Fridman (1:34:55.120)

But, you know, if I gotta do something,

Josh Barnett (1:34:58.300)

then yeah, put me in Valhalla, man.

Lex Fridman (1:34:59.840)

I don't wanna be anywhere else.

Josh Barnett (1:35:00.960)

Nothing else seems like a good place for me to be.

Lex Fridman (1:35:02.800)

I wanna fight all day long and feast all night.

Josh Barnett (1:35:06.200)

You know, it sounds great.

Lex Fridman (1:35:07.720)

I saw you throw your hat into the ring of Fader Emelianenko.

Josh Barnett (1:35:11.960)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:35:13.280)

He got COVID, I guess.

Josh Barnett (1:35:14.440)

I hope he overcomes it and comes out just as good,

Lex Fridman (1:35:17.720)

if not better.

Josh Barnett (1:35:18.560)

Epic with that.

Lex Fridman (1:35:19.380)

Did I understand correctly that might be his last fight?

Josh Barnett (1:35:21.960)

Yes, that's my understanding.

Lex Fridman (1:35:24.120)

And it would be epic as hell.

Lex Fridman (1:35:25.400)

And it would be epic as hell

Lex Fridman (1:35:26.600)

because the person that I wanna give my most to

Josh Barnett (1:35:31.200)

is a person that I respect,

Lex Fridman (1:35:32.980)

especially at this long career of mine

Lex Fridman (1:35:38.600)

and getting at this twilight years.

Lex Fridman (1:35:41.000)

It's like two warriors.

Lex Fridman (1:35:42.360)

And that's the thing about even this going in there

Lex Fridman (1:35:45.300)

with the aspect of being with death and all that

Josh Barnett (1:35:47.880)

is that when that person is in there,

Lex Fridman (1:35:51.040)

they are my brother with me in this.

Lex Fridman (1:35:52.920)

And so when you give me your best,

Lex Fridman (1:35:55.120)

even if I win dominant fashion,

Lex Fridman (1:35:58.200)

but if you show up and you're as authentic

Lex Fridman (1:36:00.520)

and being here as I am, then I love you.

Lex Fridman (1:36:03.000)

And I'm glad for you to be here.

Lex Fridman (1:36:04.220)

And we're in this together.

Lex Fridman (1:36:05.320)

And at this point, your loss or my loss or whatever

Lex Fridman (1:36:11.840)

is no less deserving of veneration than the win.

Josh Barnett (1:36:14.560)

Like we're here in this.

Lex Fridman (1:36:15.880)

And so to be in the ring with Führer

Lex Fridman (1:36:18.040)

and to venerate him in win or defeat,

Lex Fridman (1:36:21.360)

to be in there with someone like that is, to me,

Josh Barnett (1:36:28.400)

it's so rare, so.

Lex Fridman (1:36:30.320)

It's incredible how the ultimate violence

Josh Barnett (1:36:33.200)

is coupled with love or respect.

Lex Fridman (1:36:37.760)

And it's weird how the competition in its violent form

Josh Barnett (1:36:45.400)

is also a veneration of just human connection.

Lex Fridman (1:36:50.400)

Human connection.

Josh Barnett (1:36:51.240)

It's also the removal.

Lex Fridman (1:36:52.320)

I feel like it's the purest, one of the purest ways,

Josh Barnett (1:36:55.640)

purest, most honest places a person can exist.

Lex Fridman (1:36:59.120)

That line in Fight Club, you don't know really

Josh Barnett (1:37:00.880)

who you are until you've been in a fight.

Lex Fridman (1:37:02.120)

I mean, I believe that.

Lex Fridman (1:37:03.520)

And I've seen so many examples of people

Lex Fridman (1:37:06.440)

trying to portray themselves as one thing.

Lex Fridman (1:37:09.460)

And then in the ring, you see who they really are.

Lex Fridman (1:37:12.840)

Or even when they're trying to portray themselves

Josh Barnett (1:37:15.160)

as one thing and they're winning,

Lex Fridman (1:37:18.060)

the crowd, at times, will see who they really are

Lex Fridman (1:37:21.240)

and still hate them, you know?

Lex Fridman (1:37:22.880)

And it's like, well, I said all the good things.

Josh Barnett (1:37:25.720)

Bro, don't work that way.

Lex Fridman (1:37:27.720)

Yeah, but speaking of Führer,

Josh Barnett (1:37:29.440)

if we take you out of the picture,

Lex Fridman (1:37:31.440)

who are the greatest mixed martial arts fighters

Lex Fridman (1:37:33.680)

of all time?

Lex Fridman (1:37:34.520)

I feel.

Josh Barnett (1:37:36.720)

You out of the picture.

Lex Fridman (1:37:38.240)

As a cop out, to some degree,

Lex Fridman (1:37:40.640)

I feel like we need a little bit more time, you know?

Lex Fridman (1:37:43.980)

So, to see how this unfolds.

Josh Barnett (1:37:47.340)

Because you gotta compare a lot of things.

Lex Fridman (1:37:48.800)

And I, did I, I think I'm.

Lex Fridman (1:37:52.400)

Like centuries?

Lex Fridman (1:37:53.240)

I did an interview.

Josh Barnett (1:37:54.120)

I don't know about centuries.

Lex Fridman (1:37:55.080)

But that would help if we can keep accurate records

Lex Fridman (1:37:57.200)

and not allow too much bias to fall in.

Lex Fridman (1:38:01.620)

Too much propaganda.

Lex Fridman (1:38:02.460)

The victor's still there, right?

Lex Fridman (1:38:03.600)

Yeah, but I made an argument.

Josh Barnett (1:38:08.680)

I was in, I get a, it was a interview

Lex Fridman (1:38:13.000)

with an MMA outlet of some sort.

Lex Fridman (1:38:14.400)

And I can't recall who it was.

Lex Fridman (1:38:16.320)

But, oh, it was an argument about

Josh Barnett (1:38:18.860)

will the winner of Cain Velasquez versus Steve Amiocik

Lex Fridman (1:38:23.920)

be the greatest MMA heavyweight of all time?

Lex Fridman (1:38:26.540)

And I said, fucking no way.

Lex Fridman (1:38:29.160)

Oh no, it was Cormier Amiocik.

Josh Barnett (1:38:31.040)

That's what it was.

Lex Fridman (1:38:32.000)

I said, absolutely not.

Josh Barnett (1:38:33.440)

Not even close.

Lex Fridman (1:38:35.160)

And I said, these guys need a bit more time

Josh Barnett (1:38:37.360)

to see how things go.

Lex Fridman (1:38:39.320)

And also how things go for some of their opponents.

Lex Fridman (1:38:41.160)

And like, there's more factors than just this one fight.

Lex Fridman (1:38:43.600)

It really is.

Lex Fridman (1:38:44.440)

And I go, and when you wanna weigh these people,

Lex Fridman (1:38:47.680)

even if let's say, we'll bring Alistair Overeem

Josh Barnett (1:38:50.900)

into the end of the equation.

Lex Fridman (1:38:52.780)

Okay, you judge him on what you know now,

Lex Fridman (1:38:56.080)

what he's done for you lately, okay?

Lex Fridman (1:38:58.440)

Right.

Josh Barnett (1:38:59.340)

Which is a very myopic way of doing it.

Lex Fridman (1:39:03.000)

What has he done over his career?

Josh Barnett (1:39:04.560)

K1 champion.

Lex Fridman (1:39:06.440)

He was a champion in DREAM.

Josh Barnett (1:39:12.060)

He, Strike Force, blah, blah, blah.

Lex Fridman (1:39:13.920)

His overall record.

Josh Barnett (1:39:15.640)

The entirety of all the different opponents he's fought.

Lex Fridman (1:39:18.160)

And I just sit back and I go, okay, he's not the UFC champ.

Lex Fridman (1:39:22.620)

But his accolades, his merits,

Lex Fridman (1:39:28.560)

in some ways, actually stand up higher

Josh Barnett (1:39:32.940)

than Cormier's and Amiocik's.

Lex Fridman (1:39:35.520)

So what about the moments, do you give much value

Josh Barnett (1:39:38.760)

to the special moments, like the highest heights

Lex Fridman (1:39:42.840)

you rise to, not in terms of records or the strikes landed,

Lex Fridman (1:39:46.560)

but just creating a magical moment in a fight?

Lex Fridman (1:39:50.280)

It doesn't have to be even a championship fight,

Lex Fridman (1:39:52.320)

but just, Conor McGregor is an example

Lex Fridman (1:39:55.440)

of somebody who creates a narrative,

Josh Barnett (1:39:57.040)

who creates a story, who creates a drama,

Lex Fridman (1:39:59.120)

and a special magic happens, even if it's like, not with.

Josh Barnett (1:40:02.440)

Myth is greater than reality.

Lex Fridman (1:40:04.360)

And that is always the case.

Lex Fridman (1:40:05.480)

But do you.

Lex Fridman (1:40:06.320)

And so I understand that so very much,

Lex Fridman (1:40:08.200)

and it takes an asshole like me to poo poo on your myth.

Lex Fridman (1:40:12.960)

They at least get you, at the end of the day,

Josh Barnett (1:40:14.960)

you're not gonna abandon your myth,

Lex Fridman (1:40:16.480)

but perhaps temper it with the facts and logic.

Lex Fridman (1:40:22.720)

So you're not a fan of myth?

Lex Fridman (1:40:24.080)

No, I'm an absolute massive fan of myth.

Lex Fridman (1:40:26.500)

But you prefer facts and logic.

Lex Fridman (1:40:28.040)

It's like when I, no, I mean.

Josh Barnett (1:40:30.760)

I like saying facts and logic, because people,

Lex Fridman (1:40:33.280)

I also, I am not a materialist in that sense.

Josh Barnett (1:40:36.200)

I don't think that materialism can solve for everything.

Lex Fridman (1:40:38.680)

It's not enough.

Josh Barnett (1:40:39.520)

It's not robust enough, I'm sorry.

Lex Fridman (1:40:41.320)

If facts and logic and, or reason,

Josh Barnett (1:40:44.240)

as the Enlightenment scholars all thought,

Lex Fridman (1:40:46.520)

including Marx, was enough for people,

Josh Barnett (1:40:49.600)

then we would never, we wouldn't have any religions.

Lex Fridman (1:40:53.320)

We wouldn't have any, like there would be no,

Josh Barnett (1:40:55.360)

we wouldn't have narratives and myths

Lex Fridman (1:40:56.760)

and all this kind of stuff.

Josh Barnett (1:40:58.060)

It would not, it just, I'm sorry, there is no,

Lex Fridman (1:41:00.480)

there's nothing about history that supports the idea

Josh Barnett (1:41:04.000)

that rationality will overcome all.

Lex Fridman (1:41:07.660)

There's something about Ben Shapiro's facts

Josh Barnett (1:41:09.640)

don't care about your feelings,

Lex Fridman (1:41:10.880)

that feels to be miss, feels to be missing

Josh Barnett (1:41:14.880)

something fundamental about human nature.

Lex Fridman (1:41:16.600)

It's not clear to me exactly what is missing.

Josh Barnett (1:41:20.200)

To give old Ben a fair shake.

Lex Fridman (1:41:24.720)

And I don't know Ben Shapiro.

Josh Barnett (1:41:27.240)

I don't really listen to Ben Shapiro,

Lex Fridman (1:41:29.000)

not against Ben Shapiro.

Josh Barnett (1:41:30.720)

I don't, I'm not here to say anything

Lex Fridman (1:41:33.560)

particularly bad about him.

Josh Barnett (1:41:35.840)

Although I will say at one time,

Lex Fridman (1:41:37.200)

Tom Arnold was seemingly trying to pick

Josh Barnett (1:41:39.700)

an actionable fight with Ben Shapiro.

Lex Fridman (1:41:42.180)

In the ring.

Josh Barnett (1:41:43.020)

Or in the. Somewhere, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:41:44.600)

And I just, and I actually responded,

Josh Barnett (1:41:46.280)

I like, and I tried to get him to clarify,

Lex Fridman (1:41:48.200)

I said, hey, are you saying that you want to fight

Josh Barnett (1:41:50.880)

Ben Shapiro, that you're looking to actually,

Lex Fridman (1:41:52.920)

because I was waiting for him to say something

Lex Fridman (1:41:54.480)

and then I can be like, okay, well,

Lex Fridman (1:41:56.020)

it's one thing to want to get into a fight with someone.

Josh Barnett (1:41:58.120)

It's another thing to go pick on a little tiny,

Lex Fridman (1:42:01.160)

you know, guy like Ben, who's much smaller than you

Lex Fridman (1:42:04.520)

and doesn't train or whatever, but you know,

Lex Fridman (1:42:06.280)

if it's not me, I can find someone your size

Lex Fridman (1:42:08.360)

and you can go fight him.

Lex Fridman (1:42:09.800)

You know, don't be a, basically,

Josh Barnett (1:42:11.440)

don't be a bully piece of shit.

Lex Fridman (1:42:13.480)

Yeah. You know, which by the way,

Josh Barnett (1:42:15.520)

Tom Arnold, you are a mental midget.

Lex Fridman (1:42:17.480)

You are never going to be able to compete

Josh Barnett (1:42:20.220)

even with Ben Shapiro in an argument

Lex Fridman (1:42:22.040)

on any level about anything.

Josh Barnett (1:42:23.920)

Oh, intellectual argument.

Lex Fridman (1:42:25.000)

Yeah, intellectual argument.

Josh Barnett (1:42:26.640)

Maybe you can scream louder than him, but whatever.

Lex Fridman (1:42:29.600)

But nevertheless, in the discussion of greatness in fighting.

Josh Barnett (1:42:35.480)

I think you need to look at some of the numbers.

Lex Fridman (1:42:37.640)

You need to look at some of the numbers.

Lex Fridman (1:42:39.120)

And there's the magic.

Lex Fridman (1:42:40.240)

There is some context also in that,

Lex Fridman (1:42:42.920)

where did Alistair Overeem fight?

Lex Fridman (1:42:45.200)

Oh, he fought in Pride, where you could soccer kick people

Lex Fridman (1:42:47.400)

and stomp their head and this and that.

Lex Fridman (1:42:48.840)

And so the game environment is actually different too.

Josh Barnett (1:42:53.360)

There's more uncertainty, there's more chaos in Pride,

Lex Fridman (1:42:55.720)

there's more.

Josh Barnett (1:42:56.560)

Go back a little further and go like,

Lex Fridman (1:42:58.800)

what about the guys that used to,

Josh Barnett (1:43:00.200)

like Dan Severn fought bare knuckle,

Lex Fridman (1:43:02.880)

head butts, the whole nine.

Lex Fridman (1:43:04.480)

You beat Dan Severn, right?

Lex Fridman (1:43:05.560)

I did beat Dan Severn.

Josh Barnett (1:43:06.560)

That was killing an idol, so to speak.

Lex Fridman (1:43:08.960)

Although I didn't really kill him because I still love him.

Josh Barnett (1:43:11.520)

He's still an, I mean, he's still responsible

Lex Fridman (1:43:13.360)

for inspiration along this whole pathway.

Josh Barnett (1:43:17.400)

It's meeting your God and then putting a knife in it,

Lex Fridman (1:43:21.400)

I guess.

Josh Barnett (1:43:22.240)

Realizing they're human and then bringing them down

Lex Fridman (1:43:27.000)

to your level.

Josh Barnett (1:43:27.840)

Exactly, but also there's a huge misconception there

Lex Fridman (1:43:31.360)

and that is that I could bring,

Josh Barnett (1:43:33.040)

maybe I could bring Dan Severn down to my level,

Lex Fridman (1:43:35.800)

but I couldn't bring his mustache down to my level.

Josh Barnett (1:43:38.680)

It is of mythic proportions and...

Lex Fridman (1:43:41.160)

Greater than yours.

Josh Barnett (1:43:42.840)

Your facial hair is greater than yours.

Lex Fridman (1:43:44.560)

My facial hair is creating its own legacy,

Lex Fridman (1:43:47.920)

but it is not Dan Severn mustache level

Lex Fridman (1:43:50.320)

or now Don Fry mustache.

Lex Fridman (1:43:52.680)

So Don Fry mustache, Dan Severn mustache.

Lex Fridman (1:43:55.760)

Now you have like Shia versus Sunni.

Josh Barnett (1:43:58.440)

Right.

Lex Fridman (1:43:59.280)

Yeah.

Josh Barnett (1:44:00.120)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:44:00.960)

You think there'll be a Karl Marx painting

Josh Barnett (1:44:04.320)

of Josh Barnett one day with the beard

Lex Fridman (1:44:06.440)

and is that basically what you're trying to say?

Josh Barnett (1:44:08.160)

I hope so.

Lex Fridman (1:44:09.000)

I will actually comb my hair, unlike Marx, but...

Josh Barnett (1:44:13.680)

Chaos has a charm to it.

Lex Fridman (1:44:16.440)

It does, it does.

Josh Barnett (1:44:17.400)

I mean, we all thought Doc Brown in Back to the Future

Lex Fridman (1:44:20.400)

was quite charming.

Josh Barnett (1:44:22.240)

You have to throw that into the calculation

Lex Fridman (1:44:23.760)

where they fought.

Josh Barnett (1:44:24.800)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:44:25.640)

This is the interesting thing.

Lex Fridman (1:44:26.480)

And the rules that they fought under.

Lex Fridman (1:44:27.320)

Some guy like Eerov Chanchin won a 32 man tournament

Josh Barnett (1:44:32.320)

or something like that.

Lex Fridman (1:44:33.260)

I go, okay.

Josh Barnett (1:44:36.420)

Steepa and Daniel Cormier are awesome

Lex Fridman (1:44:39.480)

and they will for sure be revered for their careers.

Josh Barnett (1:44:44.480)

100%.

Lex Fridman (1:44:48.560)

Can you say that they're particularly even better overall

Lex Fridman (1:44:52.480)

than Eerov Chanchin?

Lex Fridman (1:44:53.960)

Well, maybe one of them could have beat them.

Josh Barnett (1:44:55.780)

Maybe one of them wouldn't have.

Lex Fridman (1:44:57.560)

Maybe Eerov would have got them

Josh Barnett (1:44:59.640)

with the knuckles right away.

Lex Fridman (1:45:01.040)

Well, maybe if they fought them in pride,

Josh Barnett (1:45:02.400)

they wouldn't have won.

Lex Fridman (1:45:03.240)

Maybe if they fought them bare knuckle, they wouldn't won.

Josh Barnett (1:45:05.700)

I don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:45:06.540)

And there's something about the chaos,

Lex Fridman (1:45:07.720)

like do you put Royce Gracie in the top 10?

Lex Fridman (1:45:11.240)

There's something about...

Josh Barnett (1:45:12.240)

Top 10 of all time in terms of competitors is capable.

Lex Fridman (1:45:19.040)

I don't know.

Josh Barnett (1:45:19.860)

I'd have to think about that.

Lex Fridman (1:45:20.700)

Maybe not, but I put Royce Gracie as like pyramid level.

Josh Barnett (1:45:24.520)

Like, wow, dude, what an amazing man.

Lex Fridman (1:45:28.600)

Yeah, he's so important.

Josh Barnett (1:45:29.920)

Absolutely, incredibly important.

Lex Fridman (1:45:32.000)

But there's something about stepping into,

Josh Barnett (1:45:36.200)

like fighting another human being

Lex Fridman (1:45:37.760)

under all the uncertainty that the early UFCs had.

Josh Barnett (1:45:40.640)

I mean, you don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:45:41.680)

Yup.

Lex Fridman (1:45:42.520)

What is going to happen?

Lex Fridman (1:45:43.520)

And coupled that with not much money.

Josh Barnett (1:45:46.780)

Yup.

Lex Fridman (1:45:47.640)

All of it.

Josh Barnett (1:45:48.480)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:45:49.320)

So the purity of it too.

Josh Barnett (1:45:50.440)

There's something about money.

Lex Fridman (1:45:51.680)

I mean, I guess it's shit for that cat post world,

Lex Fridman (1:45:54.040)

but that ruins the purity of the violence.

Lex Fridman (1:45:57.200)

Yeah, people given the opportunity for...

Josh Barnett (1:46:02.200)

Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:46:03.280)

The bigger things get, the more...

Josh Barnett (1:46:04.680)

I love the fact that fighting has opened up

Lex Fridman (1:46:07.280)

to such a degree that the career business side of it,

Josh Barnett (1:46:12.680)

because I absolutely distinctly separate the two.

Lex Fridman (1:46:16.400)

The business side of it has opened up

Josh Barnett (1:46:18.600)

to give me far more possibilities,

Lex Fridman (1:46:20.260)

opened way more doors for me than I ever intended it to.

Josh Barnett (1:46:24.960)

Whereas the athlete side of things has,

Lex Fridman (1:46:29.840)

if anything, just gotten substantially worse, I would say.

Lex Fridman (1:46:33.680)

And some of this is due to the nature of all games

Lex Fridman (1:46:41.680)

will be learned, will be gamed

Josh Barnett (1:46:45.600)

without even the rules being broken.

Lex Fridman (1:46:47.800)

And once that's figured out, you need to make an adjustment.

Josh Barnett (1:46:51.240)

No adjustments have been made.

Lex Fridman (1:46:53.660)

So the game just appears to be the same game

Josh Barnett (1:46:56.480)

over and over and over and over and over again

Lex Fridman (1:46:59.520)

on ESPN+, on whatever, on whatever, on whatever.

Josh Barnett (1:47:02.720)

It doesn't really matter which night you watch.

Lex Fridman (1:47:04.680)

It's the same game constantly.

Lex Fridman (1:47:06.880)

And that's not because the athletes are worse or better.

Lex Fridman (1:47:12.360)

It's because they have had that game structure long enough

Josh Barnett (1:47:16.460)

that they figured out what do you do

Lex Fridman (1:47:19.040)

to be the most successful at it?

Lex Fridman (1:47:21.280)

What is the highest percentage way of approaching it,

Lex Fridman (1:47:23.320)

essentially, even if you're not thinking of percentages?

Lex Fridman (1:47:26.240)

What were the...

Lex Fridman (1:47:28.040)

If we take a step back, it's really fascinating

Josh Barnett (1:47:30.000)

to think about the early UFCs.

Lex Fridman (1:47:31.880)

Did you fight Dan Severn in the UFC?

Josh Barnett (1:47:33.640)

I fought him in Super Brawl.

Lex Fridman (1:47:35.240)

Super Brawl, so that was in the early, early days,

Josh Barnett (1:47:37.160)

your undefeated... 2000.

Lex Fridman (1:47:41.480)

What were those early days, let's say,

Lex Fridman (1:47:43.480)

of mixed martial arts like?

Lex Fridman (1:47:46.540)

Let me tell you the day of high adventure.

Josh Barnett (1:47:49.160)

Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.

Lex Fridman (1:47:54.560)

Yeah, it is.

Josh Barnett (1:47:55.400)

It was so much fun.

Lex Fridman (1:47:56.680)

And it made you feel absolutely like you were a part of a novel,

Josh Barnett (1:48:03.200)

a comic book.

Lex Fridman (1:48:04.480)

I mean, I would love to transcribe my experiences

Josh Barnett (1:48:08.880)

as what I consider a second generation MMA athlete,

Lex Fridman (1:48:13.000)

except I'm way too sensitive to anybody's personal,

Josh Barnett (1:48:21.760)

any things that are not even to...

Lex Fridman (1:48:25.360)

I'm not a gossipy person.

Josh Barnett (1:48:26.640)

I really do believe that small people talk about others.

Lex Fridman (1:48:29.920)

Big people talk about ideas.

Lex Fridman (1:48:34.220)

But there's just some stories that you can't tell

Lex Fridman (1:48:36.940)

without telling the whole story.

Lex Fridman (1:48:38.240)

And there are so many amazing stories that could be told.

Lex Fridman (1:48:43.440)

People being at their best, people being at their worst.

Josh Barnett (1:48:45.800)

Yeah, the whole niche of gossip.

Lex Fridman (1:48:48.120)

Is there something you could speak to the chaos of the time?

Josh Barnett (1:48:51.840)

Oh, 100%.

Lex Fridman (1:48:53.160)

Well, okay, so we at AMC got connected to somebody

Josh Barnett (1:48:57.760)

that was throwing an event in Nampa, Idaho,

Lex Fridman (1:49:00.040)

and we all piled into this.

Lex Fridman (1:49:02.240)

And Matt Humes, Subaru Wagon, and we jammed out.

Lex Fridman (1:49:07.140)

And we left Kirkland and we headed over to Idaho,

Josh Barnett (1:49:10.880)

only to find out that there was nothing really put in place.

Lex Fridman (1:49:15.880)

Nothing really put in place, it was absolute disrepair and chaos.

Josh Barnett (1:49:23.440)

They didn't have a rain, they didn't have this.

Lex Fridman (1:49:26.200)

It was such a bullshit adventure.

Lex Fridman (1:49:28.520)

But we were like, well, there's hardly anywhere to fight.

Lex Fridman (1:49:34.920)

It's tough to find these opportunities.

Lex Fridman (1:49:36.280)

So, okay, well, how about this?

Lex Fridman (1:49:39.400)

Whoever is here to fight and is willing,

Josh Barnett (1:49:42.960)

all right, well, since there's no venue, there's no this,

Lex Fridman (1:49:46.040)

whatever, we all got gloves, we got mouthpieces,

Josh Barnett (1:49:48.680)

we'll just go to the park, as long as we still get paid.

Lex Fridman (1:49:51.640)

And so folks were kind of like, I don't know about that.

Josh Barnett (1:49:56.240)

The guy I was gonna fight was, he finally gets information

Lex Fridman (1:50:01.840)

on who I actually am, and I was undefeated at the time.

Josh Barnett (1:50:05.560)

I think I had fought Super Brawl 13

Lex Fridman (1:50:09.320)

and already won that tournament.

Lex Fridman (1:50:10.480)

And so he's like, yeah, I had no clue.

Lex Fridman (1:50:13.960)

I'm so glad we didn't fight, you would have murdered me.

Lex Fridman (1:50:16.920)

What a setup.

Lex Fridman (1:50:18.360)

And eventually Matt had to strong arm the guy

Lex Fridman (1:50:21.760)

and get our money that we were supposed to all get

Lex Fridman (1:50:24.080)

and drive back.

Lex Fridman (1:50:25.560)

And because his whole position was,

Lex Fridman (1:50:27.320)

well, there ain't no fucking way,

Josh Barnett (1:50:28.440)

we drove all the way out here for free.

Lex Fridman (1:50:31.560)

This is on you, you fucked this up, not my problem.

Lex Fridman (1:50:35.440)

But what is my problem is the lack of cash in my account.

Lex Fridman (1:50:38.360)

So fix it, or me fighting my first organized fight

Josh Barnett (1:50:46.240)

against an AMC guy on 11 days notice

Lex Fridman (1:50:51.720)

through a connection to an old wrestling coach I had.

Lex Fridman (1:50:54.560)

And I just gathered up with all my old martial arts instructor

Lex Fridman (1:50:59.760)

that I had worked with and we grappled in his apartment.

Josh Barnett (1:51:04.760)

We did tie pads in the park.

Lex Fridman (1:51:07.520)

I ran a couple miles every day and then,

Josh Barnett (1:51:10.960)

all right, boom, show it up.

Lex Fridman (1:51:12.160)

Won my fight by front choke in two minutes.

Lex Fridman (1:51:14.600)

And then Matt goes, okay, well, hey, you did really great.

Lex Fridman (1:51:19.360)

We'd like you to come back and fight again in the summer.

Lex Fridman (1:51:21.240)

What do you think?

Lex Fridman (1:51:22.440)

Okay, go back off the university.

Lex Fridman (1:51:24.920)

And then I think, hmm, well, that fight didn't go exactly

Lex Fridman (1:51:28.440)

as how I wanted it to.

Lex Fridman (1:51:29.920)

So I gotta find a way to get more experience.

Lex Fridman (1:51:33.680)

I would literally fight people in the university,

Josh Barnett (1:51:37.520)

like rec center on the old wrestling mats,

Lex Fridman (1:51:40.920)

as they didn't know I had a wrestling team.

Josh Barnett (1:51:42.480)

I would find anyone doing martial arts,

Lex Fridman (1:51:44.480)

anyone talking about getting into street fights,

Josh Barnett (1:51:46.480)

anyone, whatever, and just basically go,

Lex Fridman (1:51:48.520)

oh, you ever watch UFC?

Josh Barnett (1:51:50.480)

Yeah, yeah, that stuff's cool.

Lex Fridman (1:51:51.840)

What do you think?

Josh Barnett (1:51:52.680)

Oh, man, I'm super into it, man, it's badass.

Lex Fridman (1:51:55.160)

Rad.

Lex Fridman (1:51:56.000)

So would you wanna fight?

Lex Fridman (1:51:59.240)

Would you wanna fight? I mean, it was way easier picking fights

Josh Barnett (1:52:04.000)

than it was, you know, getting a girlfriend.

Lex Fridman (1:52:06.320)

So I just, you know, path least resistance.

Josh Barnett (1:52:10.160)

I think it might be useful for us

Lex Fridman (1:52:11.920)

to get some advice from you.

Josh Barnett (1:52:14.320)

Yeah, all right.

Lex Fridman (1:52:15.240)

Because you've accomplished,

Josh Barnett (1:52:16.960)

for the journey of a martial artist first,

Lex Fridman (1:52:21.120)

if you accomplish some of the greatest accolades

Josh Barnett (1:52:23.960)

there is in the sport, if somebody who's starting out now,

Lex Fridman (1:52:27.240)

or early on in their journey, what advice would you give

Lex Fridman (1:52:31.800)

on how to become a martial artist, catch wrestler, a fighter?

Lex Fridman (1:52:38.800)

Well, I mean, really what it comes down to

Josh Barnett (1:52:41.800)

is do it because you love it.

Lex Fridman (1:52:43.480)

Do it for that reason and that reason alone.

Josh Barnett (1:52:47.280)

Most people that get into this

Lex Fridman (1:52:49.400)

and attempt to make any sort of professional inroads with it,

Josh Barnett (1:52:53.320)

you are not going to be the world champion.

Lex Fridman (1:52:55.560)

You probably will never even fight for a belt

Lex Fridman (1:52:59.160)

and you're probably not going to net make money at this.

Lex Fridman (1:53:03.320)

So don't do it for those reasons.

Josh Barnett (1:53:06.160)

Do it for the reason of the passion.

Lex Fridman (1:53:08.240)

Do it for the reason to be the absolute best

Josh Barnett (1:53:10.320)

that you can be, whatever that ends up being.

Lex Fridman (1:53:13.080)

You might at best only be mediocre,

Lex Fridman (1:53:16.960)

but you won't even be mediocre if you don't do it

Lex Fridman (1:53:18.800)

like you really mean it.

Josh Barnett (1:53:20.320)

So.

Lex Fridman (1:53:21.160)

The passion, look, where is the kernel of the passion,

Josh Barnett (1:53:24.400)

would you say, is it in the learning process itself,

Lex Fridman (1:53:26.640)

the improvement?

Lex Fridman (1:53:27.680)

I think it really depends on the person, right?

Lex Fridman (1:53:29.480)

I mean, there's some people that really love the fact of,

Lex Fridman (1:53:33.880)

they feel like they're growing, right?

Lex Fridman (1:53:36.160)

Well to power, you're growing, growing stronger,

Josh Barnett (1:53:38.600)

growing better.

Lex Fridman (1:53:41.400)

The idea of eliminating weakness.

Josh Barnett (1:53:44.640)

So, to which I'll quickly define weakness

Lex Fridman (1:53:48.640)

as just like things that weaken you,

Josh Barnett (1:53:51.200)

not like being physically weak.

Lex Fridman (1:53:53.680)

Sure, you could call that weakness,

Lex Fridman (1:53:55.280)

but maybe you're not meant to be a super strong guy.

Lex Fridman (1:53:57.680)

But choosing to be weak is really a different story

Josh Barnett (1:54:02.360)

other than just like,

Lex Fridman (1:54:03.200)

we're all deficient in some way or another.

Lex Fridman (1:54:07.360)

So that's neither here nor there.

Lex Fridman (1:54:10.400)

It's a matter of what you decide to do with it.

Lex Fridman (1:54:12.120)

And that's different from strength and weakness,

Lex Fridman (1:54:13.640)

at least the way I look at it.

Josh Barnett (1:54:14.800)

Like strength is choosing,

Lex Fridman (1:54:16.440)

regardless of the difficulty, to make improvements.

Josh Barnett (1:54:19.720)

Strength is even choosing to acknowledge that you do lack.

Lex Fridman (1:54:23.200)

And accept it and then make a decision what to do with it.

Josh Barnett (1:54:28.760)

Yeah, but there's also, there's a bunch of stuff

Lex Fridman (1:54:30.760)

that just like you said, it's what you're drawn to.

Josh Barnett (1:54:32.560)

There's an honesty to just grappling

Lex Fridman (1:54:34.960)

that it seems more real than anything else you can do.

Josh Barnett (1:54:38.280)

Sure, well and also.

Lex Fridman (1:54:39.120)

And that's where the passion and love can come from.

Josh Barnett (1:54:41.160)

Yeah, I mean, being in an environment, hopefully,

Lex Fridman (1:54:43.920)

that is as true as possible, would be a starter.

Josh Barnett (1:54:47.680)

So, it's hard to be a bullshit person

Lex Fridman (1:54:52.360)

when you're literally trying to tear each other's arms off.

Josh Barnett (1:54:55.520)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:54:56.360)

You know, you really sort of see who somebody is.

Josh Barnett (1:54:58.840)

I also feel like you really get to see somebody who,

Lex Fridman (1:55:01.520)

there are a couple instances where you really see

Josh Barnett (1:55:03.160)

who people are on the mats and in the bedroom.

Lex Fridman (1:55:07.040)

So, even the aspect of self betterment,

Josh Barnett (1:55:17.280)

growth along a path.

Lex Fridman (1:55:19.000)

I mean, hell, that's part of the divisive capture

Josh Barnett (1:55:23.720)

for martial arts as a business.

Lex Fridman (1:55:26.440)

Give you a belt, put a stripe on your belt.

Josh Barnett (1:55:29.000)

Each of these iterations cost 20 bucks.

Lex Fridman (1:55:32.560)

So, you know.

Lex Fridman (1:55:33.400)

But there's a benefit to that too.

Lex Fridman (1:55:35.400)

I really enjoyed the progression of belts.

Josh Barnett (1:55:38.200)

Sure.

Lex Fridman (1:55:39.040)

You know, a bit of it is OCD or whatever,

Lex Fridman (1:55:41.360)

but you're enjoying the recognition, your growth

Lex Fridman (1:55:44.280)

when you feel, when you're made to feel,

Josh Barnett (1:55:46.440)

when I think genuinely you do earn it.

Lex Fridman (1:55:48.840)

Yeah.

Josh Barnett (1:55:49.680)

I agree.

Lex Fridman (1:55:50.500)

I agree.

Josh Barnett (1:55:51.340)

It makes complete sense to me.

Lex Fridman (1:55:52.900)

It just, it's anything that is, has a goodness

Josh Barnett (1:55:56.860)

in its purity can also have a detriment in its perversion.

Lex Fridman (1:56:00.560)

So.

Lex Fridman (1:56:01.400)

And there's a value to competition.

Lex Fridman (1:56:04.340)

I've gotten some shit in the past for saying this.

Josh Barnett (1:56:06.320)

I've gotten the most value in giving everything I have

Lex Fridman (1:56:12.160)

to try to win and lose.

Lex Fridman (1:56:15.900)

So like, I've gotten, I remember most of the matches

Lex Fridman (1:56:18.700)

I've lost and I think that's what I've gotten the most

Josh Barnett (1:56:23.560)

from the sport is losing.

Lex Fridman (1:56:25.160)

Think about it.

Josh Barnett (1:56:26.000)

I mean, if you really think about it,

Lex Fridman (1:56:30.520)

what makes you wanna actually, in detail,

Lex Fridman (1:56:34.120)

go over what happened?

Lex Fridman (1:56:36.940)

Oh, it's the time when you didn't get what you wanted.

Josh Barnett (1:56:39.000)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:56:39.840)

It's a time when you gave it everything you had

Lex Fridman (1:56:41.580)

and you came up short.

Lex Fridman (1:56:42.880)

Right.

Josh Barnett (1:56:43.720)

Or failed miserably.

Lex Fridman (1:56:45.360)

Okay, so.

Josh Barnett (1:56:46.200)

Especially if you're embarrassed in some way.

Lex Fridman (1:56:47.840)

Right.

Josh Barnett (1:56:48.680)

It's usually the only time people, again, calamity,

Lex Fridman (1:56:52.040)

is the impetus for them to actually turn around

Lex Fridman (1:56:54.040)

and go, who the fuck am I?

Lex Fridman (1:56:55.760)

What am I doing and why am I doing it?

Josh Barnett (1:56:57.760)

Instead of naturally going, hmm, okay, well I won.

Lex Fridman (1:57:02.380)

Why?

Lex Fridman (1:57:03.300)

What was it the cause?

Lex Fridman (1:57:04.140)

And so I think part of my success is that when I win,

Josh Barnett (1:57:08.720)

I'm brutal.

Lex Fridman (1:57:09.840)

When I lose, I'm brutal.

Lex Fridman (1:57:11.880)

And there is no in between.

Lex Fridman (1:57:13.760)

So I remember losing the rematch against Noguera.

Lex Fridman (1:57:22.160)

And I still feel like it was a bullshit call.

Lex Fridman (1:57:24.360)

I feel like I won that fight.

Lex Fridman (1:57:25.560)

But my opinion is that, and this even came up,

Lex Fridman (1:57:30.320)

so one of the coaches in the back was like,

Josh Barnett (1:57:32.960)

oh, you did great, don't feel bad, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Lex Fridman (1:57:35.920)

And I go, no, fuck that.

Josh Barnett (1:57:36.880)

I didn't finish him.

Lex Fridman (1:57:38.000)

I allowed the referees to make a judge,

Josh Barnett (1:57:39.920)

a decision that I think is incorrect and bad,

Lex Fridman (1:57:42.360)

but that came because I didn't take him out.

Josh Barnett (1:57:44.920)

Fuck that, no, no.

Lex Fridman (1:57:46.560)

He won, he's gonna get more money,

Josh Barnett (1:57:48.360)

he's gonna get more recognition,

Lex Fridman (1:57:49.680)

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Josh Barnett (1:57:51.080)

I accept all this and it's not okay.

Lex Fridman (1:57:53.480)

And I need to, when I get a chance to fight him again,

Josh Barnett (1:57:57.160)

I gotta figure out how to take this guy out.

Lex Fridman (1:58:00.320)

I don't wanna say forever.

Josh Barnett (1:58:01.520)

I'm not trying to put him six feet underground.

Lex Fridman (1:58:03.040)

Well, when I fight, yes I am.

Lex Fridman (1:58:04.620)

But the point being, I need to find a way to,

Lex Fridman (1:58:09.000)

this is definitive.

Josh Barnett (1:58:10.640)

You don't get to say shit about it

Lex Fridman (1:58:12.640)

because I'm the only one who can stand right now.

Josh Barnett (1:58:15.080)

That's the way it's gotta be.

Lex Fridman (1:58:16.480)

Anything less than that is not good enough.

Lex Fridman (1:58:19.740)

And even if I achieve that, then I gotta figure out,

Lex Fridman (1:58:22.880)

okay, it's not a given.

Lex Fridman (1:58:25.300)

How did I get to this point?

Lex Fridman (1:58:26.560)

How did I make that happen?

Josh Barnett (1:58:28.800)

Was it simply because of his own mistakes

Lex Fridman (1:58:32.680)

or was it because of my successful action?

Lex Fridman (1:58:36.960)

So it's always self critical.

Lex Fridman (1:58:38.680)

Always, constantly.

Josh Barnett (1:58:40.480)

You love movies.

Lex Fridman (1:58:42.480)

I read this somewhere.

Josh Barnett (1:58:44.000)

You mentioned Blade Runner is a favorite.

Lex Fridman (1:58:45.720)

Number one of all time, the final cut.

Josh Barnett (1:58:47.520)

That's my go to.

Lex Fridman (1:58:48.760)

So you would say Blade Runner

Josh Barnett (1:58:51.560)

is the greatest movie of all time.

Lex Fridman (1:58:52.800)

It's one of the greatest movies of all time.

Lex Fridman (1:58:54.840)

And it is my number.

Lex Fridman (1:58:55.760)

What's in the top?

Josh Barnett (1:58:56.840)

My top five, Blade Runner, final cut.

Lex Fridman (1:59:01.400)

This is the original Blade Runner.

Lex Fridman (1:59:03.240)

And I used to own, on tape, the original.

Lex Fridman (1:59:06.920)

VHS?

Josh Barnett (1:59:07.760)

The original cut, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:59:08.920)

And I had the director's cut on DVD.

Lex Fridman (1:59:11.800)

Why Blade Runner, by the way?

Lex Fridman (1:59:14.600)

What connects you to it?

Josh Barnett (1:59:15.440)

As a kid, I just thought it was so cool.

Lex Fridman (1:59:17.120)

There was something about it that really spoke to me.

Josh Barnett (1:59:18.620)

The whole cyberpunk landscapes

Lex Fridman (1:59:20.160)

and this guy chasing down rogue androids, replicants,

Lex Fridman (1:59:26.420)

and all this.

Lex Fridman (1:59:27.840)

Is it just the entire cyberpunk universe

Lex Fridman (1:59:31.200)

or is it just robots as well?

Lex Fridman (1:59:33.000)

No, I mean, the cyberpunk universe is part of it.

Josh Barnett (1:59:37.000)

On the surface, I've always tended towards

Lex Fridman (1:59:40.720)

dark subject matter.

Josh Barnett (1:59:42.680)

Things that are of the dark, so to speak,

Lex Fridman (1:59:45.560)

are things that I've always been gravitated towards.

Josh Barnett (1:59:48.560)

I think maybe part of it is that things that are darker

Lex Fridman (1:59:51.600)

are more accepting and more upfront with death.

Lex Fridman (20:00.020)

what is becoming first principles to most people.

Lex Fridman (20:03.340)

But wait, wait, but you could also argue though,

Josh Barnett (20:05.380)

those riots were more like the madness of crowds,

Lex Fridman (20:07.620)

which is definitely a lot more than just that.

Josh Barnett (20:10.020)

I'm just saying that given a chance, it's like, okay, boom,

Lex Fridman (20:13.260)

the lights are off, the grid is down.

Josh Barnett (20:15.820)

We've hacked into the whole system,

Lex Fridman (20:18.700)

turned into an 80s movie.

Lex Fridman (20:19.860)

And you have the ability to go get ahold of whatever it is

Lex Fridman (20:24.820)

that you think is most important.

Lex Fridman (20:26.500)

And what do we do?

Lex Fridman (20:27.660)

And I say, we, as in, you know, including all of us,

Josh Barnett (20:30.580)

we grab a TV, we attack it.

Lex Fridman (20:32.980)

We break into a sneaker store in Melrose.

Josh Barnett (20:35.260)

We do, it's just like, ah, we still giant cause statues

Lex Fridman (20:39.780)

where the value of that is completely market driven.

Josh Barnett (20:43.140)

Like it's just a piece of polypropylene or whatever,

Lex Fridman (20:45.940)

butyl and you know, it's cool.

Josh Barnett (20:48.260)

I'm a big fan of art, but it's like,

Lex Fridman (20:53.460)

you know, I can't eat that.

Lex Fridman (20:54.780)

And at the end of the day, man,

Lex Fridman (20:56.220)

you're sitting there with your, like,

Lex Fridman (20:57.780)

what'd you do today, honey?

Lex Fridman (20:58.740)

What'd you get?

Josh Barnett (20:59.580)

You know, man, we were able to, you know,

Lex Fridman (21:01.260)

oh, I got this, I got this designer art statue.

Josh Barnett (21:04.180)

Are you going to go, well, you can't really sell it

Lex Fridman (21:07.780)

on the, on like the art markets

Josh Barnett (21:09.460)

where people were really going to pay for it.

Lex Fridman (21:10.740)

So are you going to become an underground art dealer

Lex Fridman (21:12.980)

with your one piece of cause art?

Lex Fridman (21:15.060)

One interesting thing you just said before I forget it,

Josh Barnett (21:17.460)

you mentioned the library of Alexandria and your.

Lex Fridman (21:21.180)

Phone.

Josh Barnett (21:22.340)

Well, your phone, but also just thinking

Lex Fridman (21:25.100)

of your little world that you're creating

Josh Barnett (21:27.220)

for yourself on the internet.

Lex Fridman (21:28.300)

That's a really powerful way to actually phrase it.

Josh Barnett (21:30.580)

One of the things that you've been on Joe Rogan

Lex Fridman (21:33.380)

several times.

Josh Barnett (21:34.220)

Although everybody always comes to me and go,

Lex Fridman (21:35.460)

oh, that was so great.

Josh Barnett (21:36.300)

I didn't know you, you're on, you've on Joe Rogan.

Lex Fridman (21:38.420)

I go, this is like my fifth time, dude.

Josh Barnett (21:40.260)

I've been a fan of yours for a long time

Lex Fridman (21:42.140)

from other avenues.

Josh Barnett (21:45.180)

This is a long time coming actually.

Lex Fridman (21:46.740)

Everybody, you have no idea.

Josh Barnett (21:48.140)

Like how many times through messaging

Lex Fridman (21:51.620)

and missing each other over the years.

Josh Barnett (21:54.020)

This is ridiculous.

Lex Fridman (21:54.860)

This is a long time coming.

Josh Barnett (21:56.140)

You don't realize how special this is for us.

Lex Fridman (21:58.140)

This is, well, I'm also starstruck.

Josh Barnett (22:00.020)

We'll talk about this,

Lex Fridman (22:00.940)

but you symbolize something very important to me

Josh Barnett (22:04.020)

through my journey, through wrestling,

Lex Fridman (22:06.460)

through Jiu Jitsu, through Judo,

Josh Barnett (22:08.220)

through just street fighting, through just combat.

Lex Fridman (22:11.420)

There's a, you're the, in some sense,

Josh Barnett (22:14.060)

the devil on my shoulder of like, of violence.

Lex Fridman (22:17.660)

In a good, in a, devil gets a bad rap.

Josh Barnett (22:22.260)

He does get a bad rap.

Lex Fridman (22:23.260)

I realize, you know, sitting encased in ice

Josh Barnett (22:25.980)

down at that low ass level, you know.

Lex Fridman (22:28.220)

Yeah.

Josh Barnett (22:29.060)

But, you know, the angel side is more like the athletic,

Lex Fridman (22:32.700)

the sport, the science, the technical,

Josh Barnett (22:35.500)

the chess side of things.

Lex Fridman (22:36.540)

So, but on the library, Alexander, let me ask,

Josh Barnett (22:41.660)

because you were on Joe Rogan,

Lex Fridman (22:44.340)

it does make me really sad.

Lex Fridman (22:46.380)

And I realize that I'm just probably being romantic

Lex Fridman (22:48.540)

that his, most of his library of interviews

Josh Barnett (22:53.260)

that were on YouTube have now been taken down

Lex Fridman (22:56.660)

because he went to Spotify.

Lex Fridman (22:58.300)

And that was the first, I'm probably an idiot,

Lex Fridman (23:00.420)

but it was the first time I realized

Josh Barnett (23:03.020)

that this knowledge that we've been building up

Lex Fridman (23:05.220)

on the internet doesn't necessarily last forever.

Josh Barnett (23:08.340)

No, it doesn't, unless you preserve it.

Lex Fridman (23:10.420)

I mean, it's like all things.

Josh Barnett (23:11.820)

If you do not preserve them, if you do not make efforts,

Lex Fridman (23:16.620)

you know, so many of my, it just really brings

Josh Barnett (23:19.260)

the minor off the top of my head.

Lex Fridman (23:20.660)

All my, so many friends of mine that are Jewish,

Josh Barnett (23:25.140)

you know, they're basically secular.

Lex Fridman (23:27.420)

But yet through even the secular aspect

Josh Barnett (23:31.700)

of just keeping the traditions alive, it's like,

Lex Fridman (23:33.660)

well, you could always pick a book and read about it.

Josh Barnett (23:37.060)

Clearly, it's called the Torah.

Lex Fridman (23:39.380)

But if you don't put these things into action,

Josh Barnett (23:44.340)

if you don't make them a part of your consciousness,

Lex Fridman (23:48.580)

maybe even on the subconsciousness,

Josh Barnett (23:50.220)

just through repetition, they will die.

Lex Fridman (23:53.620)

They will become simply something that exists somewhere

Josh Barnett (23:57.140)

until you find it again.

Lex Fridman (23:58.980)

And Carl Gotch used to say something,

Josh Barnett (24:02.020)

he would say that I don't invent moves,

Lex Fridman (24:03.900)

I just rediscover them.

Lex Fridman (24:05.780)

But yet Gotch and Billy Robinson also would understand

Lex Fridman (24:11.380)

that you, if someone's not carrying the torch,

Josh Barnett (24:15.820)

it'll go out.

Lex Fridman (24:16.780)

Now that doesn't mean fire can't be rekindled.

Josh Barnett (24:18.740)

It just means that it, that torch no longer

Lex Fridman (24:21.780)

is lighting the way on this knowledge.

Lex Fridman (24:24.340)

And so it's important to be an individual,

Lex Fridman (24:29.980)

even on an individual level,

Josh Barnett (24:31.460)

to be a repository for aspects of knowledge.

Lex Fridman (24:35.740)

You mentioned Gotch.

Josh Barnett (24:37.180)

You consider yourself a catch wrestler.

Lex Fridman (24:44.500)

So I've mentioned to you offline that I competed

Josh Barnett (24:47.020)

in a couple of catch wrestling tournaments.

Lex Fridman (24:49.180)

Can we go Wikipedia level at the very basic,

Josh Barnett (24:52.300)

you're the exactly right person to ask,

Lex Fridman (24:54.340)

what is catch wrestling?

Lex Fridman (24:56.340)

And what are its defining principles?

Lex Fridman (24:58.580)

I would say the easiest way for us to talk about

Lex Fridman (25:02.660)

and give an overview of what catch is

Lex Fridman (25:07.780)

in the simplest terms is think of collegiate wrestling

Josh Barnett (25:12.140)

with submissions.

Lex Fridman (25:13.820)

That is essentially what catch is.

Lex Fridman (25:15.780)

And it's not surprising because collegiate wrestling

Lex Fridman (25:18.260)

is actually derived from catch as catch can.

Josh Barnett (25:21.460)

It's just that over time certain aspects

Lex Fridman (25:23.980)

were removed from the competition structure

Lex Fridman (25:29.020)

so that they became null elements,

Lex Fridman (25:31.260)

things that were discarded.

Lex Fridman (25:33.260)

But it's funny that you can take a high level

Lex Fridman (25:38.140)

amateur collegiate types and you can show them a move

Lex Fridman (25:42.500)

and then add a little bit to it and go,

Lex Fridman (25:44.500)

oh, well, hey, that was just like what we already do here,

Lex Fridman (25:47.140)

but except, oh, I didn't know you could take it

Lex Fridman (25:49.740)

all the way to this point.

Josh Barnett (25:50.620)

Or things of that nature,

Lex Fridman (25:53.020)

especially when it comes to professional wrestling,

Josh Barnett (25:55.340)

teaching people like, no, I know you're just using this

Lex Fridman (25:58.820)

in a show, but this is actually a real move

Lex Fridman (26:00.740)

and here's how it really feels.

Lex Fridman (26:02.140)

And so collegiate wrestling and wrestling in general

Josh Barnett (26:04.940)

for people who are not aware is basically

Lex Fridman (26:07.180)

two people start on their feet and they have to score,

Josh Barnett (26:10.540)

they're trying to take each other down

Lex Fridman (26:12.140)

and they score points along the way.

Josh Barnett (26:15.860)

You can end matches by pinning them,

Lex Fridman (26:18.300)

for example, on their back.

Josh Barnett (26:20.440)

I think one way to describe wrestling

Lex Fridman (26:23.340)

is it's very much about figuring out ways

Josh Barnett (26:27.060)

to establish control and leverage

Lex Fridman (26:29.160)

in these kind of tie ups,

Josh Barnett (26:33.540)

or there's different styles where you can do more

Lex Fridman (26:35.720)

from a distance to where it's more about the timing

Lex Fridman (26:38.020)

and all that kind of stuff.

Lex Fridman (26:39.560)

Ultimately, it's an art of like both upper body

Lex Fridman (26:42.820)

and lower body and you could choose the different puzzles

Lex Fridman (26:45.180)

that you solve there.

Josh Barnett (26:46.380)

You could be attacking the head, the arms,

Lex Fridman (26:49.580)

you could be attacking the legs.

Josh Barnett (26:51.400)

There's also part of collegiate wrestling

Lex Fridman (26:53.180)

that's on the ground that has more,

Josh Barnett (26:56.340)

what's called like a referee's position or whatever.

Lex Fridman (26:58.740)

The referee's position where you're on your hands

Lex Fridman (27:01.180)

and knees basically.

Lex Fridman (27:02.460)

And so.

Lex Fridman (27:04.020)

Do you understand what that's supposed to simulate?

Lex Fridman (27:06.420)

Why is that one of the standard positions?

Josh Barnett (27:08.500)

It's one of the standard positions because one,

Lex Fridman (27:10.540)

it's one of the easiest ways to actually get up,

Lex Fridman (27:13.220)

but two, it's because you cannot be on your back.

Lex Fridman (27:15.980)

If you're on your back, you're getting pinned.

Lex Fridman (27:17.940)

And back exposure or being pinned

Lex Fridman (27:22.100)

is pretty much the universal wrestling thing.

Josh Barnett (27:26.860)

One, taking the guy from their feet to the floor

Lex Fridman (27:30.860)

and two, pinning them.

Lex Fridman (27:33.780)

As you go from like, what is it?

Lex Fridman (27:37.340)

Cornish wrestling, Turkish oil wrestling, Mongolian, Sumo,

Josh Barnett (27:43.460)

Indian, well, they'll call it Palwani.

Lex Fridman (27:46.500)

It's also called Kushti, Jiu Jitsu, Judo.

Lex Fridman (27:52.500)

So many of them is like, there's a,

Lex Fridman (27:54.740)

you sombo, even if it doesn't end the match,

Josh Barnett (27:58.020)

it's still like one of the most important aspects

Lex Fridman (28:00.500)

of the competition itself, across almost every style.

Lex Fridman (28:05.220)

And this is where submission, like catch wrestling

Lex Fridman (28:07.860)

or submission wrestling or Jiu Jitsu feels different,

Josh Barnett (28:12.500)

which it seems like for most wrestling,

Lex Fridman (28:14.980)

for a lot of wrestling, the dominance is the goal,

Josh Barnett (28:20.740)

as opposed to submission,

Lex Fridman (28:23.460)

which I guess those are two are related,

Lex Fridman (28:25.340)

but dominating the position.

Lex Fridman (28:27.340)

So that's what pinning is.

Josh Barnett (28:28.420)

It's almost like breaking your opponent,

Lex Fridman (28:32.620)

like breaking through all of their defenses

Josh Barnett (28:36.060)

to where they're completely defenses

Lex Fridman (28:37.580)

and you could do anything with them that you want.

Josh Barnett (28:39.180)

Maybe that's what could be a definition of dominance.

Lex Fridman (28:41.900)

I don't know.

Josh Barnett (28:42.740)

I mean, it sounds very much like a chain to a radiator.

Lex Fridman (28:46.500)

Yeah.

Josh Barnett (28:48.740)

Yeah, there's a threat that connects all runners,

Lex Fridman (28:52.340)

but submission feels different.

Josh Barnett (28:55.580)

It is actually different when you think about it

Lex Fridman (28:57.300)

across the landscape.

Josh Barnett (28:58.940)

I don't think radically different,

Lex Fridman (29:00.220)

but just still slightly different.

Lex Fridman (29:01.580)

And that if you think of wrestling

Lex Fridman (29:03.900)

as being derived from combat, right?

Josh Barnett (29:07.620)

So, well, it is combat sports, but more lethal combat.

Lex Fridman (29:11.940)

Getting somebody off their feet and onto their back

Josh Barnett (29:14.540)

is about as lethal a place

Lex Fridman (29:15.940)

for the person on bottom to be in general.

Josh Barnett (29:18.500)

I mean, don't come at me with your talks

Lex Fridman (29:22.420)

about your fucking worm guards and blah, blah, blah,

Lex Fridman (29:25.380)

and whatever spider, bear, okay, get out of here with that.

Lex Fridman (29:29.140)

We're not talking about you

Josh Barnett (29:30.740)

in this highly regimented sporting environment.

Lex Fridman (29:34.260)

We're talking about general, all the body hair,

Josh Barnett (29:37.740)

none of the waxing human beings.

Lex Fridman (29:39.580)

So getting someone on their back,

Josh Barnett (29:44.300)

okay, as you're trying to get up,

Lex Fridman (29:46.940)

you're getting hit with a rock or stabbed

Lex Fridman (29:48.620)

or what have you set on fire, who knows?

Lex Fridman (29:52.580)

Generally, these conflicts are not just isolated

Josh Barnett (29:55.340)

to one on one.

Lex Fridman (29:57.140)

If it's four on two,

Josh Barnett (29:58.540)

your buddy that was with you back to back,

Lex Fridman (2:00:00.200)

And perhaps, I think, maybe that is what was...

Josh Barnett (2:00:03.000)

Yeah, somehow more honest, perhaps.

Lex Fridman (2:00:04.480)

I mean, there's also the aspect of rebelliousness, usually.

Josh Barnett (2:00:08.760)

Like, I was never one to wanna just do

Lex Fridman (2:00:14.680)

what somebody told me to do, you know?

Josh Barnett (2:00:17.520)

I'm not sitting around trying to always be

Lex Fridman (2:00:22.420)

such a radical individual that I can't take orders.

Josh Barnett (2:00:25.360)

No, in fact, I'm more than willing to take orders

Lex Fridman (2:00:28.440)

from somebody that I feel is competent and has merit

Lex Fridman (2:00:32.860)

and reason behind what they're doing

Lex Fridman (2:00:34.680)

and makes like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh Barnett (2:00:36.280)

I'm 100% for it.

Lex Fridman (2:00:37.320)

Not only can I take orders,

Josh Barnett (2:00:38.680)

I will help you achieve whatever it is

Lex Fridman (2:00:40.620)

if I think it's worthwhile, even at my own expense.

Lex Fridman (2:00:45.940)

But to get to that point is a rarity.

Lex Fridman (2:00:49.440)

Like, it's just not a given.

Lex Fridman (2:00:51.240)

And so you can even imagine being a grade school teacher

Lex Fridman (2:00:54.080)

and this kid doesn't respect you

Lex Fridman (2:00:55.280)

and he doesn't really think you're that smart.

Lex Fridman (2:00:57.880)

They don't really appreciate that.

Lex Fridman (2:01:00.160)

So cyberpunk is number one.

Lex Fridman (2:01:01.640)

What else is there?

Josh Barnett (2:01:02.480)

Cyberpunk is kind of number one.

Lex Fridman (2:01:03.320)

It's an environment I love, but at the same time,

Josh Barnett (2:01:05.520)

Conan the Barbarian by John Milius

Lex Fridman (2:01:07.160)

is one of my favorite films of all time.

Lex Fridman (2:01:11.040)

And you know, that's such a pure film in a way.

Lex Fridman (2:01:15.360)

Like, the motivations are pure.

Josh Barnett (2:01:17.080)

They're very easy to follow, but not lacking in depth.

Lex Fridman (2:01:23.080)

You know, it's not just explosions and teal and orange.

Josh Barnett (2:01:28.080)

It's more on the human condition and I love it.

Lex Fridman (2:01:33.960)

And it's shot incredibly well.

Josh Barnett (2:01:36.360)

It's got an incredible soundtrack.

Lex Fridman (2:01:38.280)

Yeah, I fucking love it.

Lex Fridman (2:01:39.840)

But with Blade Runner also in a deeper sense,

Lex Fridman (2:01:41.680)

you know, again, the human condition.

Lex Fridman (2:01:43.320)

You know, you start seeing like, what is being?

Lex Fridman (2:01:45.800)

What is being human?

Josh Barnett (2:01:47.640)

You know, how does this relate to if you can make it

Lex Fridman (2:01:51.320)

and you can tell it what to do,

Lex Fridman (2:01:52.880)

at what point is it like you should or you shouldn't?

Lex Fridman (2:01:56.520)

You know, why do you get to determine what's alive

Lex Fridman (2:01:58.920)

and what's not?

Lex Fridman (2:01:59.760)

What's a life that should be allowed to live and what isn't?

Lex Fridman (2:02:02.680)

And what would be the strain of being Roy Batty

Lex Fridman (2:02:09.280)

and seeing all these incredible moments

Lex Fridman (2:02:12.240)

that with his passing will no longer exist?

Lex Fridman (2:02:17.120)

Especially if he hasn't had a chance

Josh Barnett (2:02:18.920)

to put that flame into another torch, so to speak.

Lex Fridman (2:02:22.640)

If he hasn't written them down,

Josh Barnett (2:02:23.920)

if he hasn't passed them down to somebody else.

Lex Fridman (2:02:28.720)

Gone like tears in the rain.

Josh Barnett (2:02:30.320)

Like tears in the rain, that scene is incredible.

Lex Fridman (2:02:33.200)

But it's funny, because those two universes

Josh Barnett (2:02:35.120)

are very different, Conan and the Barbarian and Cyberpunk.

Lex Fridman (2:02:38.000)

Is there, that makes me curious about

Lex Fridman (2:02:40.120)

what else might be in the list at the top.

Lex Fridman (2:02:43.480)

Well, let me think.

Josh Barnett (2:02:44.320)

It's a pretty.

Lex Fridman (2:02:45.280)

Do you like the Godfather type of universe?

Josh Barnett (2:02:47.640)

No, no, I mean, I'm sure the Godfather,

Lex Fridman (2:02:49.360)

I've never actually even watched the whole Godfather.

Lex Fridman (2:02:51.240)

No, but also like, was it Casino, Goodfellas?

Lex Fridman (2:02:54.600)

Goodfellas is a good movie, but no, that's not in my top.

Josh Barnett (2:02:56.960)

It's a good flick, but it doesn't really do it for me.

Lex Fridman (2:03:01.600)

If people really wanna get into this a little more,

Josh Barnett (2:03:03.440)

I did make a list of 100 of my favorite movies

Lex Fridman (2:03:07.200)

on my Facebook fan page.

Josh Barnett (2:03:08.520)

Nice.

Lex Fridman (2:03:10.760)

Do you remember what like, some of the top.

Josh Barnett (2:03:12.160)

Oh yeah, like Blazing Saddles is on there,

Lex Fridman (2:03:14.240)

Rage of the Lost Ark,

Josh Barnett (2:03:15.700)

Valhalla Rising by Nicholas from Winding Refn,

Lex Fridman (2:03:22.100)

Maniac by William Lustig.

Josh Barnett (2:03:25.700)

It's a 1980 gnarly video nasty horror movie

Lex Fridman (2:03:31.740)

about a serial killer who murders women and scalps them.

Lex Fridman (2:03:38.220)

And it's gnarly as hell and very brutal and very bleak

Lex Fridman (2:03:41.580)

and very, I mean, it's the kind of thing

Josh Barnett (2:03:46.660)

that like a lot of people would have

Lex Fridman (2:03:47.740)

a real hard time watching.

Lex Fridman (2:03:49.340)

But one, again, I like things that are dark,

Lex Fridman (2:03:53.100)

but two, I thought the performances were fantastic

Josh Barnett (2:03:56.600)

in this film and they really got out,

Lex Fridman (2:03:58.740)

I think what the underlying thing was,

Lex Fridman (2:04:00.300)

and it was a guy who was basically just like run amok

Lex Fridman (2:04:05.620)

by the overbearing mother, Jungian archetype.

Lex Fridman (2:04:08.620)

And it, she was, she imparted her insanity into him.

Lex Fridman (2:04:13.380)

And he, but yet there is this aspect you could see

Josh Barnett (2:04:17.140)

of him wanting to try and actually be able

Lex Fridman (2:04:19.580)

to be in the world and have love

Lex Fridman (2:04:22.820)

and have a feminine companionship

Lex Fridman (2:04:28.380)

to go with his masculine aspect.

Lex Fridman (2:04:31.640)

But he had no way of understanding

Lex Fridman (2:04:34.580)

how to really make that happen.

Lex Fridman (2:04:36.420)

And he had a complete negative connotation to the feminine.

Lex Fridman (2:04:40.220)

So his struggle with, and there's a little part

Josh Barnett (2:04:44.860)

in the movie where he somehow comes across

Lex Fridman (2:04:48.660)

this model or something, and they actually,

Josh Barnett (2:04:52.860)

he starts to feel like maybe he might be able

Lex Fridman (2:04:56.020)

to actually have a relationship with somebody

Lex Fridman (2:04:58.860)

and it goes somewhere.

Lex Fridman (2:04:59.700)

But yeah, even the Elijah Wood remake I felt was

Josh Barnett (2:05:04.140)

really well done and captured most of the essence

Lex Fridman (2:05:06.300)

of what the movie was about.

Lex Fridman (2:05:07.380)

But I still feel like the original

Lex Fridman (2:05:09.540)

by William Lustig is the best.

Lex Fridman (2:05:12.540)

What's the greatest love movie of all time?

Lex Fridman (2:05:16.860)

Greatest love movie of all time.

Lex Fridman (2:05:18.860)

So like something where love is, I mean,

Lex Fridman (2:05:20.460)

I suppose love underlies most of these movies,

Lex Fridman (2:05:22.780)

and especially like The Dark.

Lex Fridman (2:05:23.980)

I mean hell, Takashi Miike's films are all about family

Josh Barnett (2:05:27.940)

of all things, as bonkers as those movies are.

Lex Fridman (2:05:30.620)

They, the general theme is family almost entirely

Josh Barnett (2:05:34.660)

in all of his films.

Lex Fridman (2:05:36.980)

Yeah, there's very, I mean, even you can argue later on.

Josh Barnett (2:05:39.820)

Yeah, it's everywhere.

Lex Fridman (2:05:41.300)

Greatest love film of all time.

Lex Fridman (2:05:45.660)

That's, I mean, is Excalibur a film about love?

Lex Fridman (2:05:49.740)

What's Excalibur about?

Josh Barnett (2:05:51.340)

King Arthur.

Lex Fridman (2:05:53.060)

Excalibur is about Arthur becoming king of the Britains

Lex Fridman (2:05:57.740)

and his love of his country and his love of Guinevere.

Lex Fridman (2:06:01.540)

But eventually, yeah, it becomes more of about

Josh Barnett (2:06:06.860)

the necessity for the king to love,

Lex Fridman (2:06:10.940)

to hold Excalibur, to stay, to realize that while,

Josh Barnett (2:06:16.980)

if you're the king, you can love your wife

Lex Fridman (2:06:19.660)

and you can love your best friend,

Lex Fridman (2:06:21.380)

and they may fuck each other behind your back

Lex Fridman (2:06:25.900)

and as they fall in love too.

Lex Fridman (2:06:27.820)

But at the end of the day, your responsibility,

Lex Fridman (2:06:29.540)

your love has to be to the country and everyone else first

Lex Fridman (2:06:33.340)

and not your own personal wants,

Lex Fridman (2:06:36.620)

which, you know, made a much more interesting story

Lex Fridman (2:06:40.340)

when you have Carmen Berenna and oh, oh, what is that one?

Lex Fridman (2:06:46.380)

It's a German opera, but you know, and horses and slow mo

Lex Fridman (2:06:50.540)

and sword fights and an epic death scene

Lex Fridman (2:06:53.380)

between Arthur and his son.

Josh Barnett (2:06:56.860)

Okay, now I definitely have to watch it

Lex Fridman (2:06:58.220)

and Evan watched it and embarrassed me.

Josh Barnett (2:07:01.060)

It is John Boorman's second film in Hollywood,

Lex Fridman (2:07:05.300)

his first one being Point Blank with Lee Marvin,

Josh Barnett (2:07:07.420)

which is also on top, one of the upper echelon movies

Lex Fridman (2:07:10.460)

on my list, derived from a book called The Outfit by,

Lex Fridman (2:07:19.180)

what is his name?

Lex Fridman (2:07:21.660)

I forget, but Darwin Cook, the comic illustrator,

Josh Barnett (2:07:25.220)

Donald Westlake wrote, so Darwin Cook does an amazing

Lex Fridman (2:07:28.780)

comic book send up of Darwin Cook's novels

Lex Fridman (2:07:31.240)

and they are fucking incredible.

Lex Fridman (2:07:33.820)

So anyways, but the Point Blank with Lee Marvin,

Josh Barnett (2:07:38.860)

you know, it's a man driven by purpose, revenge,

Lex Fridman (2:07:43.180)

but also by like really pure motivations.

Josh Barnett (2:07:46.620)

He wants his money, he was betrayed and he wants his cash

Lex Fridman (2:07:52.500)

because this is what he agreed to do the thing for

Lex Fridman (2:07:54.500)

and this is, which also is part of the reason

Lex Fridman (2:07:56.780)

why I like No Country for Old Men so much,

Josh Barnett (2:07:58.540)

which I felt was a great movie, even better book,

Lex Fridman (2:08:02.100)

but I remember talking to my friend and I go,

Josh Barnett (2:08:04.220)

you know, Anton Chigurh is the most pure human being

Lex Fridman (2:08:08.760)

in that whole book.

Josh Barnett (2:08:09.940)

Well, that guy's the villain.

Lex Fridman (2:08:11.140)

I go, ha ha, is he evil?

Josh Barnett (2:08:14.940)

He's the one, he lies to no one.

Lex Fridman (2:08:17.260)

He does everything he says he will do.

Josh Barnett (2:08:19.300)

He always follows his word and on the rare occasion,

Lex Fridman (2:08:22.380)

he allows fate to make a decision as he figures like,

Josh Barnett (2:08:25.740)

well, whatever all led us to here will lead us

Lex Fridman (2:08:29.260)

one way or the other and if we're at this crossroads,

Josh Barnett (2:08:32.100)

what, how is there any better or worse way

Lex Fridman (2:08:34.700)

than to do it over a coin flip?

Lex Fridman (2:08:36.500)

And so that whole scene where the guy's going,

Lex Fridman (2:08:39.540)

well, what am I putting up?

Lex Fridman (2:08:40.940)

And he goes, everything, you've been putting it up

Lex Fridman (2:08:43.020)

every day of your life and that's true.

Josh Barnett (2:08:45.980)

Everything we do is a decision, is a calling, is a choice.

Lex Fridman (2:08:50.940)

And then it bummed me out that they reduced

Josh Barnett (2:08:55.740)

the last interaction between Chigurh

Lex Fridman (2:08:57.380)

and What's His Face's wife and he finally finds her

Lex Fridman (2:09:01.980)

and she's like, you don't have to do this.

Lex Fridman (2:09:03.540)

I mean, he's like, yes, yes, I do.

Josh Barnett (2:09:05.580)

This is the way it is.

Lex Fridman (2:09:06.740)

You can think that your life could've turned out

Josh Barnett (2:09:08.220)

any sort of way, you could've done this,

Lex Fridman (2:09:09.820)

you could've done that, but the reality is

Josh Barnett (2:09:11.100)

this is the way your life is

Lex Fridman (2:09:11.940)

and it's the way it was always going to be.

Josh Barnett (2:09:14.260)

You know, the fact that I'm here is the end of it

Lex Fridman (2:09:17.060)

and that's that.

Josh Barnett (2:09:18.580)

Yeah, it's funny, if you're honest, this with dark movies

Lex Fridman (2:09:21.540)

reveal that the villains are the purest of humans

Lex Fridman (2:09:26.980)

and can teach us the most profound lessons

Lex Fridman (2:09:30.300)

and that's certainly an example of it.

Lex Fridman (2:09:32.540)

What do you think the big ridiculous

Lex Fridman (2:09:34.780)

last philosophical question, what do you think

Josh Barnett (2:09:36.700)

is the meaning of this whole thing we've got going on

Lex Fridman (2:09:39.940)

of life and existence on Earth from your individual

Lex Fridman (2:09:42.940)

perspective but the entirety of the human species?

Lex Fridman (2:09:45.580)

Life, the universe and everything?

Josh Barnett (2:09:48.620)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:09:50.620)

Don't.

Josh Barnett (2:09:51.460)

Oh.

Lex Fridman (2:09:56.940)

We could just leave it at that.

Josh Barnett (2:09:58.140)

You knew exactly where I was going.

Lex Fridman (2:09:59.820)

I love it.

Josh Barnett (2:10:00.660)

Josh, I love you very much.

Lex Fridman (2:10:01.660)

You've been a huge inspiration.

Josh Barnett (2:10:03.260)

I have a friend who she said,

Lex Fridman (2:10:07.020)

do you know Lex Friedman?

Lex Fridman (2:10:08.260)

Have you gone on Lex's content?

Lex Fridman (2:10:09.580)

And I go, yes, I know Lex Friedman is.

Josh Barnett (2:10:11.860)

I've sadly been way too long in contact

Lex Fridman (2:10:15.420)

without making it happen for too long

Lex Fridman (2:10:17.740)

and yes, I will 100%, I even cut a shirt

Lex Fridman (2:10:21.740)

at the beginning of the pandemic

Josh Barnett (2:10:23.100)

to make my own little mask at one point

Lex Fridman (2:10:25.100)

due to the Lex process and hello, I was like,

Josh Barnett (2:10:30.220)

I can't really hear you but I'm demonstrating.

Lex Fridman (2:10:33.940)

Just let's see it through but this has been a blast.

Lex Fridman (2:10:36.340)

And next time, next time let's drink

Lex Fridman (2:10:39.500)

some of the Warbringer whiskey.

Josh Barnett (2:10:41.020)

I will bring some Warmaster.

Lex Fridman (2:10:43.220)

I wasn't sure if you were, if you imbibed at all in spirits.

Josh Barnett (2:10:47.780)

100%, it felt a little weird to do it early on

Lex Fridman (2:10:51.540)

in the morning, especially because I'm flying out there.

Lex Fridman (2:10:54.060)

Does it though?

Lex Fridman (2:10:54.900)

I mean, I've had some wonderful morning whiskey at times.

Josh Barnett (2:10:57.660)

It, now that you've mentioned it, it doesn't at all.

Lex Fridman (2:11:00.940)

So next time let's make sure what Joe Organ calls

Josh Barnett (2:11:03.900)

the adult beverages, let's make sure we indulge.

Lex Fridman (2:11:08.620)

I have zero reservations for doing such a thing.

Josh Barnett (2:11:11.220)

I'm into it.

Lex Fridman (2:11:12.500)

Josh, thanks for talking to me.

Josh Barnett (2:11:14.020)

My pleasure.

Lex Fridman (2:11:15.860)

Thanks for listening to this conversation

Josh Barnett (2:11:17.420)

with Josh Barnett and thank you to our sponsors.

Lex Fridman (2:11:20.820)

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Josh Barnett (2:11:25.540)

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Lex Fridman (2:11:27.780)

and Rev transcription and captioning service.

Josh Barnett (2:11:30.580)

Click the sponsor links to get a discount

Lex Fridman (2:11:32.460)

and to support this podcast.

Lex Fridman (2:11:34.580)

And now let me leave you with some words

Lex Fridman (2:11:36.300)

from Sun Tzu in the art of war.

Josh Barnett (2:11:39.380)

The Supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy

Lex Fridman (2:11:42.780)

without fighting.

Josh Barnett (2:11:44.540)

Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

Lex Fridman (30:01.900)

now he's on his back.

Lex Fridman (30:03.180)

What do you think?

Lex Fridman (30:04.020)

And now it's gonna be one on one while three go on one.

Lex Fridman (30:06.580)

So, and then you elevate this to armored combat, right?

Lex Fridman (30:10.900)

And it's boom, put them on the ground.

Josh Barnett (30:12.460)

Oh, crap, it's hard to get up.

Lex Fridman (30:13.660)

Well, while you're struggling to get up, stab.

Josh Barnett (30:16.260)

That's where jujitsu's concepts come from

Lex Fridman (30:18.820)

with all their leveraging and off balancing is,

Josh Barnett (30:20.860)

oh man, if I end up in this situation

Lex Fridman (30:23.140)

in tight close quarters combat,

Josh Barnett (30:24.660)

yes, we could fight it out with swords and knives

Lex Fridman (30:27.100)

and what have you, but it's way easier

Josh Barnett (30:29.820)

if the first thing I can do is foot sweep you on your back

Lex Fridman (30:33.900)

and then pull my knife and just go stick.

Josh Barnett (30:36.340)

Is there a thread that connects all of these different arts

Lex Fridman (30:40.020)

from not just arts, but from the very base violence of war,

Josh Barnett (30:45.380)

just like you said that there's no rules

Lex Fridman (30:47.740)

to the very regimented IBJF.

Josh Barnett (30:52.300)

I do.

Lex Fridman (30:53.140)

Jiu Jitsu tournaments and just,

Josh Barnett (30:54.300)

you've kind of laid out some of it,

Lex Fridman (30:55.580)

but can you go all the way to the.

Lex Fridman (30:57.460)

So when you start off with absolute skills

Lex Fridman (31:01.100)

in the sense of absolute offense and defense

Lex Fridman (31:04.180)

in the taking or preserving of life, right?

Lex Fridman (31:07.220)

Full on at its purest form of self defense

Lex Fridman (31:13.060)

and self preservation, okay?

Lex Fridman (31:15.420)

And then you extrapolate part of that

Josh Barnett (31:18.620)

in that all animals train in violence.

Lex Fridman (31:23.540)

All play usually degenerates

Josh Barnett (31:25.940)

into some sort of soft violence.

Lex Fridman (31:27.900)

So be it cats when they're kittens and puppies

Lex Fridman (31:30.940)

and everything learns how to kill, how to fight.

Lex Fridman (31:34.420)

Not that, you know, just that dumb alpha meme stuff

Josh Barnett (31:39.980)

where the idea is that, oh, by being alpha,

Lex Fridman (31:42.140)

that means you run around like basically just being a bully

Lex Fridman (31:44.220)

and a shithead.

Lex Fridman (31:45.060)

No, actually alpha wolves spend very little time fighting

Josh Barnett (31:50.060)

because if you were actually alpha,

Lex Fridman (31:52.340)

you don't get into fights, there's no need to.

Lex Fridman (31:55.900)

And if you're probably getting

Lex Fridman (31:58.380)

into any large amount of fights,

Josh Barnett (32:00.180)

it's probably because you're being shitty at being an alpha

Lex Fridman (32:02.660)

and now people are tired of you being in charge.

Lex Fridman (32:06.580)

And yet in the animal world,

Lex Fridman (32:08.620)

and it would be the same for human beings

Josh Barnett (32:10.660)

at that base beginning level of violence,

Lex Fridman (32:15.420)

there's a big risk.

Lex Fridman (32:17.020)

So I know that we live in this place with healthcare

Lex Fridman (32:21.020)

or you might be in a place with nationalized health,

Lex Fridman (32:23.980)

whatever, right?

Lex Fridman (32:24.820)

So there's band aids, there's penicillin,

Josh Barnett (32:30.140)

there's all that kind of stuff.

Lex Fridman (32:32.380)

But that's not the normal way of things, you know?

Josh Barnett (32:36.820)

Yeah, there's a channel that just hurts me every time.

Lex Fridman (32:40.540)

I used to follow it and I had to unfollow it

Josh Barnett (32:42.980)

because it was too painful for me as a human being

Lex Fridman (32:44.620)

called Nature is Metal on Instagram.

Josh Barnett (32:47.260)

It was sobering and then it was like, this is too sobering.

Lex Fridman (32:51.300)

It's very sobering.

Lex Fridman (32:52.860)

So in there, the risk is at its highest level.

Lex Fridman (32:56.500)

The damage you take, the winner walks away hurt.

Josh Barnett (33:02.620)

Getting lamed when you need every aspect

Lex Fridman (33:06.460)

of your physical and athletic faculties to survive

Josh Barnett (33:10.780)

because this isn't the first

Lex Fridman (33:13.900)

and it's definitely not gonna be the last,

Josh Barnett (33:15.540)

especially if you're the slowest one.

Lex Fridman (33:17.340)

What is it, there's a lyric from a clutch song.

Josh Barnett (33:23.740)

Don't go for the fat ones, just go for the slow ones.

Lex Fridman (33:26.780)

Oh man, but that's the universal truth

Josh Barnett (33:31.660)

of the way nature works.

Lex Fridman (33:33.540)

You said it's not cruel, it's not cruel,

Josh Barnett (33:35.460)

it's just the way it is.

Lex Fridman (33:36.300)

Yeah, I mean, watch animals getting into fights

Josh Barnett (33:39.020)

on any of these sort of documentary stuff.

Lex Fridman (33:41.900)

You'll see an intense short and then dispersal.

Josh Barnett (33:46.020)

You'll see as soon as one feels like things have switched

Lex Fridman (33:49.020)

just enough to boom, the bear or whatever it is takes off.

Josh Barnett (33:51.980)

It's like, I'm done with this.

Lex Fridman (33:53.700)

Because if you can get out of there with just some scars

Lex Fridman (33:56.380)

and what have you, okay.

Lex Fridman (33:58.220)

You lose an eye, nah, it's not as good.

Josh Barnett (34:01.420)

You really get hurt bad and get infected, you're done.

Lex Fridman (34:04.940)

So there's a serious risk to be

Josh Barnett (34:09.140)

that can come with these sort of things.

Lex Fridman (34:10.820)

Yet, I believe that we are inherently born

Josh Barnett (34:16.300)

for at least aspects of and use of violence.

Lex Fridman (34:19.820)

And so at the end of the day, we need these things

Josh Barnett (34:23.620)

not just to, not just survive each other,

Lex Fridman (34:26.180)

but they're a part of being able to hunt and other things.

Lex Fridman (34:31.580)

So violence is a part of human nature.

Lex Fridman (34:33.300)

Violence is, it's an absolute.

Josh Barnett (34:36.060)

It is in every person, it is a part of every interaction,

Lex Fridman (34:38.700)

it is a part of every law, everything.

Lex Fridman (34:41.660)

And I'm not, by the way, I'm not an ANCAP.

Lex Fridman (34:43.900)

So don't even, don't hit your wagon to me on that one.

Josh Barnett (34:47.060)

ANCAP is anarchic capitalist. Anarchic capitalist, yes.

Lex Fridman (34:50.700)

Not an ANCAP.

Josh Barnett (34:52.420)

They have nice book shops.

Lex Fridman (34:54.420)

Yeah, they do.

Josh Barnett (34:55.260)

I mean, I'm not gonna sit here and shit talk ANCAPs.

Lex Fridman (34:59.460)

Although I also used to get into the conversations

Josh Barnett (35:01.540)

with an ANCOM, anarcho communist, a good friend of mine.

Lex Fridman (35:06.540)

And he would bring up this stuff and I'm like,

Josh Barnett (35:09.380)

yeah, cool, man, I'm down with anarchy.

Lex Fridman (35:11.980)

You ain't gonna like it.

Lex Fridman (35:13.540)

What do you mean?

Lex Fridman (35:14.380)

I go, cause I'm gonna take all,

Josh Barnett (35:15.580)

I'm gonna gather all kinds of people together.

Lex Fridman (35:17.220)

I'm gonna make this, I'm gonna get the strongest together

Lex Fridman (35:19.020)

and I'm going to take your shit.

Lex Fridman (35:20.780)

Okay, can I ask you on that topic,

Josh Barnett (35:23.620)

I have a friend of mine now,

Lex Fridman (35:27.220)

a fellow Russian, Ukrainian, Michael Malice.

Josh Barnett (35:32.220)

Oh, yeah, I'm familiar with Michael Malice.

Lex Fridman (35:34.060)

I watched a little bit of your guy's show.

Josh Barnett (35:35.540)

I watched a little bit of your guy's conversation.

Lex Fridman (35:38.620)

So this is really good to ask you because...

Josh Barnett (35:42.540)

I like how he's in the white suit

Lex Fridman (35:44.900)

and you're in the white and black.

Lex Fridman (35:46.780)

But he lives in New York City.

Lex Fridman (35:49.540)

He espouses ideas of anarchism and his idea,

Lex Fridman (35:54.940)

and this is different than sort of the Ayn Rand set of ideas

Lex Fridman (36:00.460)

that there's a line between sort of capitalism

Josh Barnett (36:02.660)

that's backed by the state and just pure anarchism.

Lex Fridman (36:06.500)

And his idea that violence won't take over in an anarchism

Josh Barnett (36:13.020)

is one that feels to me not grounded in reality.

Lex Fridman (36:18.220)

I may be wrong.

Lex Fridman (36:19.620)

So is there some, so the idea with pure capitalism is that...

Lex Fridman (36:24.860)

You mean laissez faire, completely deregulated?

Josh Barnett (36:27.700)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (36:28.540)

Yeah, well, what it will agree, it'll end up in one,

Josh Barnett (36:31.260)

it'll end up in, if you're anti globalist,

Lex Fridman (36:34.180)

it's gonna be that.

Josh Barnett (36:35.620)

It's gonna be globalist 100% because it has no...

Lex Fridman (36:40.060)

Pure capitalism has no consideration for your native users

Josh Barnett (36:47.980)

or of any sort, like it doesn't matter.

Lex Fridman (36:50.940)

But the idea of governments is that the land,

Josh Barnett (36:53.220)

the little piece of land geographically you're born on

Lex Fridman (36:56.300)

means you're going to stick

Josh Barnett (36:57.420)

to whatever founding documents created that little land.

Lex Fridman (37:01.020)

So anarchism is against that.

Lex Fridman (37:04.060)

And the argument is you should be able to choose

Lex Fridman (37:06.220)

which ideas you live with.

Lex Fridman (37:08.980)

And the concern there is nobody,

Lex Fridman (37:12.300)

this geographical land, the governments

Josh Barnett (37:15.860)

that organize on that land

Lex Fridman (37:19.660)

do not need to protect you from the violence.

Lex Fridman (37:21.820)

And my sense is there does need to be an army,

Lex Fridman (37:23.980)

there does need to be police that help,

Josh Barnett (37:27.580)

however the form that police takes.

Lex Fridman (37:29.420)

But there needs to be a more centralized,

Josh Barnett (37:33.020)

not completely centralized,

Lex Fridman (37:33.980)

but more centralized safety net

Josh Barnett (37:38.260)

to protect you from the violence.

Lex Fridman (37:39.380)

Scale again, right?

Lex Fridman (37:40.460)

So if you want to have your anarchist utopia,

Lex Fridman (37:44.780)

well, we won't call it utopia,

Josh Barnett (37:46.300)

your anarchist creation here.

Lex Fridman (37:50.220)

At certain scale, I'm sure it's doable.

Lex Fridman (37:54.900)

But as it scales, as the scale increases,

Lex Fridman (37:58.420)

it's completely untenable.

Lex Fridman (38:00.260)

And a state will emerge.

Lex Fridman (38:02.060)

A state will always emerge.

Josh Barnett (38:03.340)

Because even people always think of states

Lex Fridman (38:05.980)

as like people rubbing their hands

Lex Fridman (38:07.860)

and smoking cigars in back rooms

Lex Fridman (38:09.700)

and just out of nowhere coming around

Lex Fridman (38:11.420)

and just like, oh, we're going to create

Lex Fridman (38:12.620)

this big centralized thing

Lex Fridman (38:13.740)

and just so that we can tell everybody what to do

Lex Fridman (38:15.860)

and we can be in charge.

Josh Barnett (38:17.900)

I mean, I know that there are people like that that exist,

Lex Fridman (38:20.940)

that they would like to do things of that nature

Lex Fridman (38:23.260)

and that they see the use of power

Lex Fridman (38:26.740)

as something to be used more for their personal gains

Josh Barnett (38:32.140)

over first, which again, self interest in human beings.

Lex Fridman (38:36.140)

But eventually a state, people want,

Josh Barnett (38:41.220)

they want something to go like, okay,

Lex Fridman (38:44.340)

who's taking care of this?

Lex Fridman (38:45.420)

And who's taking care of that?

Lex Fridman (38:46.460)

And how do we create some sort of protocol for this?

Josh Barnett (38:53.260)

Like, okay, well, when it's not Bob,

Lex Fridman (38:55.220)

when is it Susie, when is it whatever?

Josh Barnett (38:56.940)

I mean, like, how do we, it's gotta get done

Lex Fridman (38:59.740)

if we want this thing to become bigger,

Josh Barnett (39:01.140)

if we want all of our plumbing to work right,

Lex Fridman (39:04.540)

if we want, it's just, I'm sorry, a state's gonna happen.

Josh Barnett (39:06.940)

A state is also, when you think about it,

Lex Fridman (39:10.740)

it's supposed to have consideration to tribe, right?

Lex Fridman (39:13.580)

So if people think that we're not tribes,

Lex Fridman (39:15.900)

well, you're not really thinking very deeply.

Josh Barnett (39:18.980)

We're all tribes of a sort.

Lex Fridman (39:20.660)

And everybody likes to use the word tribalism

Josh Barnett (39:23.980)

in this idea of this antagonistic concept.

Lex Fridman (39:28.100)

And while sure, tribalism can be antagonistic,

Josh Barnett (39:30.540)

tribalism can also be a positive thing,

Lex Fridman (39:33.500)

or I could just say, it just seems to be a natural thing.

Josh Barnett (39:36.100)

People, they create their groups of one sort or another.

Lex Fridman (39:40.180)

And so when you have, well, when you think about

Josh Barnett (39:45.260)

when nation states really started to become a thing,

Lex Fridman (39:47.820)

and I don't mean even the more modern looking variants

Josh Barnett (39:52.180)

that we could think back up and say the 19th century

Lex Fridman (39:54.660)

or something like that, even older than that.

Josh Barnett (39:57.500)

I mean, you think the Assyrians

Lex Fridman (39:58.500)

didn't have a state of some sort?

Josh Barnett (40:00.140)

Of course they did.

Lex Fridman (40:02.220)

How do you increase your empire

Lex Fridman (40:05.140)

if you don't actually have a place to start from?

Lex Fridman (40:07.340)

Just to be a ruler.

Lex Fridman (40:08.180)

So you're saying like naturally,

Lex Fridman (40:09.820)

when you start talking and thinking about scale of humans,

Josh Barnett (40:13.180)

naturally states emerge.

Lex Fridman (40:16.380)

And so can we try to make an argument for anarchism,

Josh Barnett (40:20.780)

which is, so anarchy in a sense is an opposition

Lex Fridman (40:29.980)

to the unhelpful, unproductive, inefficient bureaucracies

Josh Barnett (40:34.140)

that eventually the states lead to.

Lex Fridman (40:37.020)

Yes, and that's what we can see.

Josh Barnett (40:38.980)

I mean, I would say less anarchy,

Lex Fridman (40:41.860)

more study James Burnham, you know,

Josh Barnett (40:46.860)

or, well, anybody that wants to talk

Lex Fridman (40:52.900)

about the managerial problem and the managerial.

Josh Barnett (40:55.180)

I see, so you have a sense, a hope,

Lex Fridman (40:58.940)

maybe let's think like what is the path forward

Lex Fridman (41:01.300)

with the inefficient state?

Lex Fridman (41:04.140)

Is it revolution or is it to work within the system

Lex Fridman (41:07.460)

to constantly improve it, to manage better?

Lex Fridman (41:09.020)

Man, I don't know that one.

Josh Barnett (41:10.260)

I mean, my general sense,

Lex Fridman (41:12.620)

and maybe this is the Nietzschean part of me,

Josh Barnett (41:14.460)

is that, yeah, it would take maybe not even just,

Lex Fridman (41:18.860)

maybe not even defining it specifically as revolution.

Josh Barnett (41:22.060)

Maybe it would just take just total calamity

Lex Fridman (41:24.980)

to get people to stop being shitty,

Josh Barnett (41:28.220)

to not stop being a lesser version of themselves,

Lex Fridman (41:30.540)

to stop thinking more about things

Josh Barnett (41:34.140)

from the paradigm that we exist in now,

Lex Fridman (41:37.780)

where we're giving so much value to stuff

Josh Barnett (41:39.980)

that isn't really all that valuable.

Lex Fridman (41:41.940)

Where we're so concerned about likes,

Lex Fridman (41:45.100)

and I don't just mean like whether we get them or not,

Lex Fridman (41:47.580)

but that, oh man, maybe we should take this off

Josh Barnett (41:50.380)

of our platform,

Lex Fridman (41:51.220)

because this is too destabilizing to people.

Josh Barnett (41:53.220)

Because once you exceed Dunbar's number,

Lex Fridman (41:54.860)

I think it's actually,

Josh Barnett (41:56.780)

without having the right faculties,

Lex Fridman (42:00.940)

which would need to be developed,

Josh Barnett (42:03.380)

because this is dealing with tech that brings things,

Lex Fridman (42:08.140)

ways of approaching being that we are not

Josh Barnett (42:12.340)

naturally programmed to be able to handle appropriately.

Lex Fridman (42:18.300)

And I think it's even more detrimental to women than men,

Josh Barnett (42:23.940)

because I think women have a more natural proclivity

Lex Fridman (42:27.700)

towards group association

Lex Fridman (42:32.340)

and more group oriented thinking and patterning.

Lex Fridman (42:38.220)

And now, and with also coupled with

Josh Barnett (42:42.380)

seemingly more sensitivity towards human states.

Lex Fridman (42:49.660)

So I feel like women, like the classic idea is like,

Josh Barnett (42:52.780)

oh, you know, women are psychic,

Lex Fridman (42:53.940)

you know, they have a sixth sense and what have you.

Lex Fridman (42:55.380)

And I think that's just a way of simplifying,

Lex Fridman (43:02.980)

what I think is that women may be more in tune

Josh Barnett (43:05.220)

with picking up on the unsaid.

Lex Fridman (43:07.540)

Like they might be better at seeing physical cues,

Josh Barnett (43:12.700)

inflection and tone, like different,

Lex Fridman (43:14.220)

like they may be far more sensitive to these things,

Josh Barnett (43:16.540)

which to me would make sense,

Lex Fridman (43:17.580)

because dealing with children that can't communicate.

Lex Fridman (43:22.580)

So distinctively, right now, okay.

Lex Fridman (43:27.780)

Now, whether it be a woman or a man,

Lex Fridman (43:29.860)

but especially with even the social push

Lex Fridman (43:34.340)

on this concept of empathy,

Josh Barnett (43:36.300)

which of course it gets to the point

Lex Fridman (43:37.460)

where it loses any meaning anymore.

Josh Barnett (43:39.260)

Like people use the word empathy

Lex Fridman (43:41.060)

absolutely incorrectly all the time.

Lex Fridman (43:42.580)

And they don't even understand

Lex Fridman (43:44.140)

what you're really asking of people.

Lex Fridman (43:47.020)

But let's just take it as we're using empathy

Lex Fridman (43:49.740)

in the correct sense.

Lex Fridman (43:50.660)

And you're taking on the emotional content

Lex Fridman (43:53.700)

of the thing itself.

Josh Barnett (43:55.300)

Now you open that up to thousands of people,

Lex Fridman (43:57.940)

maybe hundreds of thousands of people all across the world

Josh Barnett (44:01.420)

that you will never meet, that you will never know,

Lex Fridman (44:03.340)

that you're not even getting an actual true representation

Josh Barnett (44:06.660)

most of the time of who these people are.

Lex Fridman (44:08.420)

You're meeting persona.

Lex Fridman (44:10.860)

And some of these personas are even deliberately created

Lex Fridman (44:15.700)

to elicit a response inauthentically.

Lex Fridman (44:20.020)

Are you referring to bots or?

Lex Fridman (44:22.220)

Could be bots or actual people.

Josh Barnett (44:24.220)

Bots are one thing, but I mean,

Lex Fridman (44:25.540)

there are literal people out there

Josh Barnett (44:27.140)

that will create something, create GoFundMes

Lex Fridman (44:30.380)

for tragedies that never didn't really,

Josh Barnett (44:32.420)

or events that didn't happen or any number of things.

Lex Fridman (44:36.500)

Okay, I mean, burn their own house down

Lex Fridman (44:38.540)

and then say, you know, we were attacked.

Lex Fridman (44:40.540)

And then it comes down, oh, you did it to yourself

Josh Barnett (44:42.780)

because you wanted money and empathy and this, that.

Lex Fridman (44:45.380)

And you wanted all this emotional wealth,

Josh Barnett (44:48.420)

let's say this emotional coin,

Lex Fridman (44:51.340)

as well as actual if possible.

Josh Barnett (44:52.820)

You wanted to leverage it in some way.

Lex Fridman (44:55.180)

That's not the majority of people,

Lex Fridman (44:57.060)

but I would say a good amount of folks are thinking,

Lex Fridman (45:01.020)

well, if I post this photo

Lex Fridman (45:05.180)

and I put this little blurb in there,

Lex Fridman (45:07.060)

I bet I can get this much cache out of it in this sense.

Lex Fridman (45:10.460)

And I'm not even, and this isn't just a reference

Lex Fridman (45:12.420)

to like butt pics and stuff like that.

Josh Barnett (45:14.620)

Because clearly, obviously people understand

Lex Fridman (45:17.380)

that our inborn sexual nature is easy to manipulate.

Josh Barnett (45:23.340)

I mean, that's pretty obvious.

Lex Fridman (45:25.660)

But you're saying this kind of new medium

Josh Barnett (45:27.740)

of communication on social media is unnatural.

Lex Fridman (45:32.140)

And it preys on us.

Lex Fridman (45:33.260)

And so as you want this, you know,

Lex Fridman (45:36.100)

you look at an anarchist kind of mindset, right?

Lex Fridman (45:41.580)

And so you're just like, there's no,

Lex Fridman (45:44.500)

there is no overarching state to create

Lex Fridman (45:48.820)

any kind of a structure, right?

Lex Fridman (45:51.940)

And so if you have that unfettered capitalism aspect

Josh Barnett (45:55.460)

with it, and before I say anything particularly damning

Lex Fridman (46:00.060)

about unfettered capitalism, I'm a massive capitalist

Josh Barnett (46:03.940)

because I view capitalism essentially as,

Lex Fridman (46:06.540)

what it boils down to is I get these arguments to people too.

Josh Barnett (46:09.500)

They start giving me all these extra definitions

Lex Fridman (46:11.900)

about capitalism like, no, no,

Josh Barnett (46:13.380)

this is obviously some sort of theory

Lex Fridman (46:15.180)

you're taking from other shit.

Lex Fridman (46:16.220)

But that doesn't describe capitalism.

Lex Fridman (46:17.540)

Capitalism is the ability for us to create whatever we want

Josh Barnett (46:23.260)

or, you know, create our thoughts, ideas, physical things

Lex Fridman (46:27.220)

and trade them freely amongst each other

Lex Fridman (46:29.660)

in ways that we find acceptable, right?

Lex Fridman (46:34.220)

You know, I'm not even using the word fair

Josh Barnett (46:36.380)

because I might think it's fair to me.

Lex Fridman (46:39.020)

You might think, huh, well, I mean, that was actually,

Josh Barnett (46:41.300)

I think what he thought was unfair to him

Lex Fridman (46:43.500)

and it's more fair to me.

Lex Fridman (46:44.620)

And then someone, a third observer goes,

Lex Fridman (46:46.580)

oh man, you should not have paid that for that.

Josh Barnett (46:49.220)

You should have paid this.

Lex Fridman (46:50.060)

And it's like, well, you know what?

Josh Barnett (46:50.900)

It works for me without...

Lex Fridman (46:52.540)

Sufficiently acceptable that you both agree

Josh Barnett (46:55.340)

to the transaction.

Lex Fridman (46:56.180)

Correct.

Lex Fridman (46:58.700)

But also at the root of that is freedom, right?

Lex Fridman (47:01.980)

And as far as I can tell,

Josh Barnett (47:03.700)

I've been banging this around in my head,

Lex Fridman (47:06.220)

it's like for every one unit of freedom,

Josh Barnett (47:09.020)

you need two units of accountability.

Lex Fridman (47:12.180)

And if you don't have that,

Lex Fridman (47:14.340)

what you end up with is human self interest.

Lex Fridman (47:19.980)

We're not even gonna get into evil.

Josh Barnett (47:21.420)

Human self interest, sabotaging other things,

Lex Fridman (47:24.780)

even not in a sense to be malicious.

Josh Barnett (47:27.020)

Okay, so in terms of,

Lex Fridman (47:28.820)

let's put this as mathematically speaking,

Josh Barnett (47:31.300)

I love this.

Lex Fridman (47:32.180)

So anarchism is more like two units of freedom

Lex Fridman (47:35.380)

and one unit of accountability

Lex Fridman (47:37.340)

or maybe zero units of accountability.

Josh Barnett (47:38.940)

Possibly, I mean, the anarchists tend to think like,

Lex Fridman (47:40.940)

no, everyone will be accountable.

Josh Barnett (47:42.180)

It's like, fuck they will.

Lex Fridman (47:44.100)

When have you seen this happen in real life?

Josh Barnett (47:46.700)

People aren't even accountable

Lex Fridman (47:47.740)

in their revolutions at the time.

Lex Fridman (47:49.580)

So you aren't looking at the way people really are.

Lex Fridman (47:56.060)

Marx is like, yeah, the people are like this,

Josh Barnett (47:58.700)

they're like that.

Lex Fridman (47:59.540)

Look at how capitalism does it.

Josh Barnett (48:00.700)

I mean, he of course assigns a lot of really

Lex Fridman (48:03.780)

ridiculous economic principles and practice,

Lex Fridman (48:06.740)

but and also assumes that everybody

Lex Fridman (48:09.420)

who makes any profit from anything is somehow stealing it

Lex Fridman (48:13.060)

and really assigns a negative moral aspect to them.

Lex Fridman (48:15.940)

And then it's like, oh yeah,

Lex Fridman (48:16.940)

but then eventually communism will happen.

Lex Fridman (48:19.340)

No one will act that way anymore.

Lex Fridman (48:20.580)

And you're like, whoa, hold on.

Lex Fridman (48:21.740)

You just said that people are all,

Josh Barnett (48:23.460)

are you saying it's all due to capitalism

Lex Fridman (48:25.860)

or is it innate?

Josh Barnett (48:27.860)

It's just, it's a fundamental misunderstanding of,

Lex Fridman (48:31.620)

and it's like, hey, look at you.

Josh Barnett (48:35.100)

You're like a notorious, like antisemitic, angry,

Lex Fridman (48:39.420)

like just absolute curmudgeon of a human being

Josh Barnett (48:43.860)

who seems to be really not all that fun to be around.

Lex Fridman (48:46.740)

Marx?

Josh Barnett (48:47.580)

Yeah, and then it's just like.

Lex Fridman (48:48.580)

So you have to think like,

Josh Barnett (48:49.540)

if there was 1 billion Marx's in the world,

Lex Fridman (48:52.740)

how would they behave?

Josh Barnett (48:53.700)

It would be absolute.

Lex Fridman (48:56.020)

They would hate each other so bad.

Lex Fridman (48:58.260)

And this isn't, for me to even poison them well on Marx

Lex Fridman (49:01.980)

is like, oh, his personality sucks.

Josh Barnett (49:03.700)

Like there's lots of people whose personality sucks.

Lex Fridman (49:05.700)

That doesn't mean they can't make,

Lex Fridman (49:07.300)

I don't know that it's never, what?

Lex Fridman (49:09.780)

You know what, somebody argues.

Josh Barnett (49:10.900)

He's just a loner.

Lex Fridman (49:12.340)

I mean, I don't know that his personality sucked at all.

Josh Barnett (49:14.940)

Let me walk that back and that he was human.

Lex Fridman (49:17.580)

Say his personality sucked.

Josh Barnett (49:19.380)

He was sometimes contradictory, irrational.

Lex Fridman (49:23.140)

Sometimes he was quite sexist

Josh Barnett (49:27.500)

despite the emails I've gotten.

Lex Fridman (49:29.820)

That told me that there's people who has written to me

Josh Barnett (49:37.100)

that Nietzsche has been unfairly labeled as sexist

Lex Fridman (49:40.660)

in his discussion about women.

Josh Barnett (49:43.340)

I'm pretty sure there's a bunch of documents

Lex Fridman (49:45.780)

where he's just like, he's just a bitter guy.

Josh Barnett (49:51.300)

I will agree with you.

Lex Fridman (49:52.700)

And Marx is as bitter as they come to,

Lex Fridman (49:54.620)

but bitterness in and of itself

Lex Fridman (49:58.780)

doesn't make, like why I hate Marxism

Josh Barnett (50:03.020)

comes from the entirety of the thing.

Lex Fridman (50:08.140)

But I'm not going to say that Marxism or practic...

Josh Barnett (50:15.420)

Man, you can find any forbidden book

Lex Fridman (50:18.740)

and it could have something good in it.

Josh Barnett (50:20.660)

As colonel is a good idea.

Lex Fridman (50:21.700)

Yeah, and like at the end of the day,

Josh Barnett (50:23.900)

Marx is a human being.

Lex Fridman (50:25.820)

He's got a nice beard.

Josh Barnett (50:26.820)

He does, he had a hell of a beard.

Lex Fridman (50:28.500)

Yeah, a decent portrait.

Josh Barnett (50:29.740)

I mean, he looks like the kind of guy like,

Lex Fridman (50:31.860)

I wouldn't want to meet him in a dark alley,

Lex Fridman (50:33.500)

but thankfully I don't think he was much of a fighter.

Lex Fridman (50:35.820)

But in any case, I mean, not the anarchists

Josh Barnett (50:39.940)

or they're more hot for like Max Stirner.

Lex Fridman (50:44.860)

People like to think that Nietzsche borrowed a lot

Josh Barnett (50:48.140)

from Stirner and my argument is one,

Lex Fridman (50:50.660)

you don't have any real evidence for that

Lex Fridman (50:52.540)

and two, bullshit, you know?

Lex Fridman (50:54.740)

I mean, anybody could, the fact that they have

Josh Barnett (50:59.580)

some overlapping thoughts doesn't make it lifted.

Lex Fridman (51:03.980)

Not to mention, go read a lot more philosophy

Lex Fridman (51:06.740)

and see how there's so many different things.

Lex Fridman (51:08.660)

Oh, this guy said it in 1722.

Josh Barnett (51:12.220)

Well, and then this guy says it again in 1922.

Lex Fridman (51:15.100)

Does that mean he read the other guy's stuff?

Josh Barnett (51:16.620)

Not necessarily.

Lex Fridman (51:17.500)

I mean, he's working from the same type

Josh Barnett (51:19.260)

of human physiological construct as anybody else.

Lex Fridman (51:23.620)

Like, of course it's possible

Josh Barnett (51:25.260)

that this guy could think the same thing.

Lex Fridman (51:26.500)

We think a lot of the same things, to be perfectly honest.

Josh Barnett (51:29.380)

I mean, reading the Hagakure,

Lex Fridman (51:31.540)

going back to philosophy books,

Josh Barnett (51:33.380)

this was really impactful on me as a younger adult

Lex Fridman (51:36.380)

because here's a book written in the 19th century

Josh Barnett (51:39.020)

about someone who lived through the 19th

Lex Fridman (51:41.820)

and 18th century at times as a samurai, now a monk,

Lex Fridman (51:45.460)

and his objections to society at the time,

Lex Fridman (51:48.980)

the same objections one was having to society

Josh Barnett (51:51.980)

as I was reading it.

Lex Fridman (51:53.180)

Like, the same human behaviors,

Josh Barnett (51:55.500)

the same impetus for action that he found a problem,

Lex Fridman (52:03.620)

like, well, that's the same shit now.

Josh Barnett (52:07.300)

Like, we're not, and this was the thing,

Lex Fridman (52:09.460)

and then I'm reading more religion,

Lex Fridman (52:11.140)

and I go, oh, we're no different

Lex Fridman (52:13.140)

than anyone who wrote the Torah or older.

Josh Barnett (52:16.140)

We are the same thing with the same problems,

Lex Fridman (52:18.740)

with the same psychological issues,

Josh Barnett (52:21.420)

the same human behaviors.

Lex Fridman (52:22.660)

Like, these things are not different,

Lex Fridman (52:24.940)

and we haven't changed.

Lex Fridman (52:26.020)

Growing set of tools, though, to kill each other with

Josh Barnett (52:29.140)

or to communicate together and all that kind of stuff,

Lex Fridman (52:31.220)

but underlying it, there's a human nature.

Josh Barnett (52:33.700)

Well, we're also trying to understand that human nature.

Lex Fridman (52:35.580)

I think we've, just like you said,

Josh Barnett (52:37.420)

learning how to fish,

Lex Fridman (52:38.420)

acquired more and more knowledge about that human nature,

Lex Fridman (52:41.940)

but it's been a very slow journey,

Lex Fridman (52:44.300)

slower than people realize

Josh Barnett (52:46.740)

in terms of understanding human nature.

Lex Fridman (52:49.020)

Let me ask, in terms of egoism,

Josh Barnett (52:51.100)

to be curious, to get your sense about Ayn Rand

Lex Fridman (52:56.700)

and her whole idea of virtue of selfishness and her,

Josh Barnett (53:01.820)

because you mentioned that everybody has a kernel of truth.

Lex Fridman (53:06.500)

There's potential for a kernel of truth

Josh Barnett (53:08.860)

to be discovered in anything.

Lex Fridman (53:10.620)

For example, I've been recently reading Mein Kampf.

Josh Barnett (53:16.180)

You know what, that's the thing.

Lex Fridman (53:18.220)

Even, there's something in, there's probably things

Josh Barnett (53:22.020)

in Mein Kampf that are not the surface level read.

Lex Fridman (53:25.820)

If you get all hung up on all,

Josh Barnett (53:27.980)

probably all his crap about his anger at Jews

Lex Fridman (53:32.860)

and this and that, all this crap,

Josh Barnett (53:34.220)

it's like, okay, yeah, that's right on the surface.

Lex Fridman (53:37.780)

Try to get below that.

Lex Fridman (53:38.820)

Try to see, how is he creating the Jews as a cope somehow?

Lex Fridman (53:43.820)

Like, how is he using, why are they his scapegoat,

Lex Fridman (53:46.820)

and I mean scapegoat in the,

Lex Fridman (53:49.180)

so René Girard's concept of the scapegoat,

Josh Barnett (53:51.980)

I mean it in that sense, whereas Hitler uses,

Lex Fridman (53:55.580)

he wants to make the Jews the scapegoat for World War I.

Lex Fridman (54:00.300)

You know what I mean?

Lex Fridman (54:01.140)

For me, the starting point, similar with Ayn Rand,

Josh Barnett (54:03.980)

is that Mein Kampf is not a good place to search,

Lex Fridman (54:08.180)

not just because Hitler is evil,

Lex Fridman (54:09.780)

but it's just not full of ideas.

Lex Fridman (54:11.820)

No, it is not.

Josh Barnett (54:13.460)

It has its significance due to a lot of things.

Lex Fridman (54:16.220)

Historically speaking.

Josh Barnett (54:17.820)

The starting point for me with Hitler

Lex Fridman (54:19.820)

is to acknowledge that he is human

Lex Fridman (54:23.180)

and to at least consider the possibility

Lex Fridman (54:26.060)

that any one of us could have been Hitler.

Lex Fridman (54:28.340)

So like, not to make it.

Lex Fridman (54:29.180)

Well, that's a Peterson kind of concept.

Josh Barnett (54:31.540)

Also, Jonathan Haidt has a thing

Lex Fridman (54:33.700)

about the difference between hate and disgust mechanisms

Lex Fridman (54:38.500)

and things like that, and so he goes into the,

Lex Fridman (54:41.900)

looking at Hitler through his diary entries

Lex Fridman (54:45.580)

and journals and stuff like that

Lex Fridman (54:46.620)

to look and see it more as the disgust mechanism

Josh Barnett (54:50.180)

than also trying to see if there's any

Lex Fridman (54:52.540)

evolutionary biological attachment to this, whatever.

Josh Barnett (54:56.740)

I mean, you're right, he is a human being.

Lex Fridman (54:59.380)

Any of us, we're all human beings.

Josh Barnett (55:02.180)

It's not that, it's probably jarring for people to think,

Lex Fridman (55:07.820)

but we're all, I guess, supposedly potentially capable

Josh Barnett (55:12.820)

of just being in, and all these evil people in the world

Lex Fridman (55:17.140)

think they're doing it for the sake of good,

Josh Barnett (55:20.620)

which makes them the most dangerous.

Lex Fridman (55:22.820)

And there's some, there's differences in levels of insane.

Josh Barnett (55:26.580)

I think Hitler was way more insane than Stalin.

Lex Fridman (55:29.340)

I think Stalin legitimately thought he was doing good.

Josh Barnett (55:33.780)

I would say that's probably true.

Lex Fridman (55:36.100)

Stalin was just outright brutal.

Josh Barnett (55:40.420)

Like he had his five year plan, he had all those other things.

Lex Fridman (55:44.020)

He just had a much lower value for human life,

Lex Fridman (55:47.180)

and so he was willing to take, make decisions

Lex Fridman (55:49.820)

about what he actually, as a good executive,

Josh Barnett (55:54.780)

which he was, of managing different bureaucracies and so on,

Lex Fridman (55:59.420)

he was willing to make decisions

Josh Barnett (56:01.100)

that resulted in mass human suffering,

Lex Fridman (56:04.620)

where Hitler was, it seems like to me, much moodier.

Lex Fridman (56:09.620)

So allowed emotions and moods to make decisions.

Lex Fridman (56:12.620)

I think we also have to consider the different trajectories

Lex Fridman (56:16.660)

and how, where, and when they were making their decisions.

Lex Fridman (56:19.340)

And I mean, not by time specifically,

Lex Fridman (56:21.300)

but Hitler engaged into this conflict

Lex Fridman (56:24.260)

across multiple continents.

Lex Fridman (56:27.140)

And then that, everything that comes

Lex Fridman (56:29.980)

with basically fighting the whole world,

Josh Barnett (56:33.740)

Stalin had his conflict,

Lex Fridman (56:36.380)

and then he really mostly compartmentalized the rest of it.

Lex Fridman (56:41.460)

So he was dealing with his own internal

Lex Fridman (56:43.500)

instead of dealing with the internal and the external.

Lex Fridman (56:46.220)

So if Stalin was put under a World War scenario,

Lex Fridman (56:48.780)

I don't know, maybe he would have

Josh Barnett (56:49.980)

eventually lost his marbles too.

Lex Fridman (56:51.940)

Yeah, I'm not sure that that's, you're right.

Josh Barnett (56:54.820)

The hunger for power was more internalized for Stalin.

Lex Fridman (56:58.460)

He wanted to control the land that already existed

Josh Barnett (57:00.940)

as opposed to wanting to colonize other land.

Lex Fridman (57:02.940)

He was as nationalistic as Hitler,

Josh Barnett (57:05.580)

but, and was as capable and willing

Lex Fridman (57:10.380)

for violent conflict as Hitler,

Josh Barnett (57:13.260)

for the aims of the state.

Lex Fridman (57:17.540)

But he centered and internalized

Josh Barnett (57:22.740)

prior to then externalizing and moving outwards.

Lex Fridman (57:26.700)

Whereas even maybe prior to him,

Josh Barnett (57:28.700)

there was an interest to continually push communism

Lex Fridman (57:31.700)

in an aggressive sense following on the momentum

Josh Barnett (57:34.180)

from the 1918 revolution.

Lex Fridman (57:37.740)

And that, the halting of that through various aspects,

Josh Barnett (57:43.860)

I guess in Germany, part of that was the National Socialists.

Lex Fridman (57:47.500)

Like they came up and then they were the other ones

Josh Barnett (57:49.980)

to fight the communists,

Lex Fridman (57:50.900)

and so you had the two totalitarians going after it.

Lex Fridman (57:54.060)

But then in the rest of the world

Lex Fridman (57:55.740)

that was not dealing with totalitarian aspects,

Josh Barnett (58:00.860)

it was just, it wasn't gonna stick,

Lex Fridman (58:02.740)

especially in the West and other places.

Lex Fridman (58:04.660)

But Stalin, just casually thinking,

Lex Fridman (58:09.020)

it seemed like Stalin decided to go,

Josh Barnett (58:11.300)

all right, well, we're not gonna go

Lex Fridman (58:12.620)

just start launching right into more conflicts here.

Josh Barnett (58:14.940)

We're gonna, these dudes are going down,

Lex Fridman (58:17.180)

so that's cool for us,

Josh Barnett (58:18.620)

because they hate us and we hate them.

Lex Fridman (58:22.180)

But now we're gonna focus internally,

Lex Fridman (58:24.780)

and then we're gonna work on growing at a slower rate

Lex Fridman (58:28.020)

and picking our battles a bit more specifically.

Lex Fridman (58:30.180)

And of course there's, you can get to the,

Lex Fridman (58:32.860)

even this is after Stalin,

Lex Fridman (58:34.100)

but you got the Bezmenov type stuff

Lex Fridman (58:36.340)

talking about subversion in cultural aspects.

Josh Barnett (58:40.620)

Yeah, I mean, there's this fascinating dynamics

Lex Fridman (58:42.700)

to propaganda throughout the whole period that's.

Josh Barnett (58:45.100)

Yeah, it's a whole nother kernel, yeah.

Lex Fridman (58:47.020)

Do you think Hitler could have been stopped?

Josh Barnett (58:49.820)

One of the things that's kind of fascinating to look at

Lex Fridman (58:53.540)

is how many nations, both journalists and nations,

Josh Barnett (58:57.860)

wanted, almost craved to take Hitler at his word

Lex Fridman (59:00.940)

that he wanted peace until it was too late.

Josh Barnett (59:04.300)

They almost wanted to delude themselves.

Lex Fridman (59:08.380)

I mean, the same is true with the Stalin,

Josh Barnett (59:11.620)

people wanted to take Stalin at his word for.

Lex Fridman (59:13.540)

Oh, they still delude themselves.

Josh Barnett (59:14.860)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (59:15.700)

We will delude ourselves over any number of things

Josh Barnett (59:19.740)

until even after the fact where the history just says,

Lex Fridman (59:22.540)

hey, fuck face, you know?

Josh Barnett (59:24.940)

You cannot supplement your pseudo reality

Lex Fridman (59:27.420)

onto actual reality here.

Lex Fridman (59:30.220)

But yet, we deal with people in pseudo realities constantly.

Lex Fridman (59:34.460)

I mean, we will always find a way

Josh Barnett (59:36.700)

to change reality to suit our needs.

Lex Fridman (59:39.980)

Well, the nature of truth now,

Josh Barnett (59:41.180)

there's now multiple actual truths.

Lex Fridman (59:42.860)

It's kind of fascinating.

Josh Barnett (59:43.980)

There's multiple versions of history

Lex Fridman (59:46.580)

that people are telling.

Josh Barnett (59:47.980)

You know, the version of the Great Patriotic War in Russia,

Lex Fridman (59:52.820)

the World War II in Russia is very different today

Josh Barnett (59:55.740)

under Putin than the version

Lex Fridman (59:57.540)

that we're learning in the United States