Joe Rogan: Comedy, Controversy, Aliens, UFOs, Putin, CIA, and Freedom
音乐与艺术心理与人性政治与社会历史与文明技术与编程
📋 章节目录
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🔑 关键词
donpersongoingdoingcomedyshitartfunnygotstufftalkingsaidrealdoesnguytalkharddidnbettermade
💬 精彩语录
"They have a very high level of anxiety already because I don't think they're they're giving their body what it what it needs."
他们已经非常焦虑，因为我认为他们没有给自己的身体提供所需的东西。
— Joe Rogan （16:32.320）
"And I think over time, as it's going to as it gets analyzed and we break it down, it's going to be one of the weirder moments for shaping human culture."
我认为随着时间的推移，随着它的分析和分解，这将成为塑造人类文化的最奇怪的时刻之一。
— Joe Rogan （17:41.720）
"We'll see if I have him on the night is still young. I think I'll have him on. I think you'll have him on. Really?"
我们会看看我是否能在晚上还年轻的时候拥有他。我想我会让他上场的我想你会让他上场的。真的吗？
— Joe Rogan （19:31.720）
"No, I think ultimately, I mean, you had you've had a lot of people that I think you might you may otherwise be skeptical."
不，我认为最终，我的意思是，你有很多人，我认为你可能会持怀疑态度。
— Joe Rogan （19:43.560）
"I think you I think he is an artist, but Kanye doing well or not doing well doesn't change the course of our country."
我认为你我认为他是一位艺术家，但坎耶做得好或做得不好并不能改变我们国家的进程。
— Joe Rogan （20:07.800）
🎙️ 完整对话（1901 条）
Lex Fridman (00:00.480)
The following is a conversation with Joe Rogan,
以下是与乔·罗根的对话，
Lex Fridman (00:03.400)
his second time on this podcast.
他第二次参加这个播客。
Lex Fridman (00:06.120)
He has inspired me for many years with his conversations
多年来他的谈话一直激励着我
Lex Fridman (00:09.720)
to be a better and kinder person
成为一个更好、更友善的人
Lex Fridman (00:11.960)
and has now been doing so as a friend.
现在已经以朋友的身份这样做了。
Joe Rogan (00:15.680)
There's no one I would rather talk to
没有人是我愿意与之交谈的人
Lex Fridman (00:17.840)
on this 300th episode of this podcast on the 4th of July,
在 7 月 4 日播客的第 300 集中，
Joe Rogan (00:23.400)
both the anniversary of this country's
都是这个国家的周年纪念日
Lex Fridman (00:25.480)
declaration of independence
独立宣言
Lex Fridman (00:27.200)
and the anniversary of my immigrating here
以及我移居这里的周年纪念日
Lex Fridman (00:30.080)
to the United States.
到美国。
Joe Rogan (00:31.760)
A silly kid who couldn't speak English
一个不会说英语的傻孩子
Lex Fridman (00:34.520)
and could never imagine that he will be so damn lucky
无法想象他会如此幸运
Joe Rogan (00:38.400)
as to live the life I've lived
为了过我所过的生活
Lex Fridman (00:40.840)
and to feel the love I felt
并感受我所感受到的爱
Joe Rogan (00:43.680)
from the amazing people along the way.
来自一路上那些了不起的人。
Lex Fridman (00:46.560)
From the bottom of my heart, thank you.
我从心底里感谢你们。
Joe Rogan (00:49.880)
I love you all.
我爱你们。
Lex Fridman (00:52.280)
This is the Lex Friedman podcast.
这是莱克斯·弗里德曼的播客。
Joe Rogan (00:54.400)
To support it, please check out our sponsors
为了支持它，请查看我们的赞助商
Lex Fridman (00:56.680)
in the description.
Lex Fridman (00:58.040)
And now, dear friends, here's Joe Rogan.
Lex Fridman (01:02.600)
Charles Bukowski said something in a poem called Style
Joe Rogan (01:05.520)
about art.
Lex Fridman (01:07.320)
He defined art saying style is the answer to everything,
Joe Rogan (01:11.320)
a fresh way to approach a dull or dangerous thing.
Lex Fridman (01:14.480)
To do a dull thing with style is preferable
Joe Rogan (01:16.920)
to doing a dangerous thing without it.
Lex Fridman (01:19.440)
To do a dangerous thing with style is what I call art.
Lex Fridman (01:23.560)
What do you think he meant by that?
Lex Fridman (01:25.000)
Do you agree with this?
Joe Rogan (01:26.240)
A dangerous thing with style is art.
Lex Fridman (01:29.000)
He said bullfighting can be art, boxing can be art,
Joe Rogan (01:31.720)
loving can be art.
Lex Fridman (01:34.000)
Have you ever made love and it was art?
Joe Rogan (01:35.360)
No, okay, I'm not asking.
Lex Fridman (01:37.240)
Every time, bro.
Joe Rogan (01:39.400)
Opening a can of sardines can be art.
Lex Fridman (01:42.200)
I think there's something to that.
Joe Rogan (01:44.200)
Yeah, I think, I call the way people live life art.
Lex Fridman (01:48.440)
Like I wrote a foreword to my friend,
Joe Rogan (01:50.480)
Cameron Haynes's book, which is right now
Lex Fridman (01:53.720)
the number one selling audio book in the world.
Lex Fridman (01:55.880)
And one of the things that I said was that
Lex Fridman (01:58.880)
he practices an art that very few people appreciate
Lex Fridman (02:02.680)
and it's the art of the maximized life.
Lex Fridman (02:05.760)
And that the discipline that he displays in his life
Lex Fridman (02:11.000)
and through his practices and all the things that he does,
Lex Fridman (02:14.840)
it's so difficult to live the way he lives
Joe Rogan (02:19.640)
that for someone like me who understands it
Lex Fridman (02:22.680)
and knows what he's doing and appreciates it
Lex Fridman (02:25.000)
and appreciates how insanely difficult it is
Lex Fridman (02:29.400)
to have a full time job and run ultra marathons,
Joe Rogan (02:32.640)
get up at four o clock in the morning,
Lex Fridman (02:33.880)
run a full marathon before work.
Joe Rogan (02:36.600)
Like that's the kind of shit that he does
Lex Fridman (02:39.120)
when he's training for these 240 mile runs,
Joe Rogan (02:45.240)
at the same time being like a father, a husband,
Lex Fridman (02:50.760)
having this full time job,
Joe Rogan (02:52.880)
also being the best bow hunter on earth, lifting weights.
Lex Fridman (02:55.800)
It's like, how does a person do this?
Lex Fridman (02:58.480)
So in a way, discipline is art too.
Lex Fridman (03:00.520)
Yes, discipline is art.
Joe Rogan (03:02.360)
Yeah, I think it is, because it's beautiful for me to see.
Lex Fridman (03:05.320)
When I see someone who's really truly disciplined,
Joe Rogan (03:07.960)
who like a David Goggins,
Lex Fridman (03:09.360)
someone who just like truly maximizes the grind,
Joe Rogan (03:12.560)
I feel like there's an art to that.
Lex Fridman (03:14.600)
And there's an art to kindness.
Joe Rogan (03:16.880)
Like there's people that are really kind and really sweet
Lex Fridman (03:19.240)
and when I'm around them, it's beautiful.
Joe Rogan (03:20.600)
It's like there's an art to them.
Lex Fridman (03:22.040)
No matter what.
Joe Rogan (03:22.860)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (03:23.700)
They still, they got,
Joe Rogan (03:24.920)
the world can throw a bunch of shit at you,
Lex Fridman (03:26.560)
but through all of that.
Joe Rogan (03:27.400)
Yeah, some people are just great at it.
Lex Fridman (03:30.000)
And it's a thing that you learn how to do.
Lex Fridman (03:33.480)
And it's pleasing for other people to see.
Lex Fridman (03:35.760)
And that I think is where the art is.
Joe Rogan (03:38.760)
Well, I think Bukowski also said,
Lex Fridman (03:42.080)
and I'm just a Bukowski quote generator today.
Joe Rogan (03:44.480)
I love him.
Lex Fridman (03:45.440)
I love him very much too.
Joe Rogan (03:47.720)
He's a dark and troubled and fascinating and a weird person,
Lex Fridman (03:50.520)
like Hunter S. Thompson.
Joe Rogan (03:51.840)
He said, what matters most
Lex Fridman (03:53.440)
is how you walk through the fire, I think.
Lex Fridman (03:56.880)
So there's a bit of the Ken Haines in that too,
Lex Fridman (03:58.840)
David Goggins in that too.
Lex Fridman (04:00.880)
What do you think he meant by that?
Lex Fridman (04:03.800)
Well, how you walk through the fire.
Joe Rogan (04:05.520)
I mean, you can walk through the fire
Lex Fridman (04:07.320)
complaining along the way,
Joe Rogan (04:08.640)
or you can walk through the fire
Lex Fridman (04:10.680)
and create an example for everyone else
Lex Fridman (04:14.680)
so that the trials and tribulations of their own lives
Lex Fridman (04:18.400)
seem trivial because they're comparing themselves
Joe Rogan (04:21.320)
to the way you handle things,
Lex Fridman (04:22.720)
or the way you handle things with grace and dignity
Lex Fridman (04:26.200)
and discipline can show other people
Lex Fridman (04:29.440)
that they can handle their own life this way.
Lex Fridman (04:32.920)
And there's beauty in that, there really is.
Lex Fridman (04:35.160)
And there's so much inspiration
Joe Rogan (04:37.960)
to be gathered from other people
Lex Fridman (04:40.080)
if you're a charitable person,
Joe Rogan (04:41.600)
if you're charitable and compassionate
Lex Fridman (04:44.480)
and you can look at people,
Joe Rogan (04:47.280)
even people that I don't like,
Lex Fridman (04:49.960)
I try to look at the best aspects
Joe Rogan (04:52.360)
of how they live their life
Lex Fridman (04:53.760)
and recognize those aspects, admire them,
Joe Rogan (04:58.400)
give them credit for it.
Lex Fridman (05:00.160)
There's something that we can all get out of
Joe Rogan (05:02.800)
watching the way other people live their lives.
Lex Fridman (05:05.560)
So I got a chance to see you walk through the fire
Joe Rogan (05:07.880)
a little bit privately and publicly this year in January.
Lex Fridman (05:14.040)
I gotta ask you about that.
Lex Fridman (05:15.720)
So there's like generic conversations
Lex Fridman (05:17.960)
about sort of cancel culture and all those kinds of things.
Lex Fridman (05:20.640)
But as a human being, this to me is fascinating.
Lex Fridman (05:24.160)
Sort of there's the N word highlight video,
Joe Rogan (05:27.120)
there's the criticism of the different guests,
Lex Fridman (05:30.080)
whatever the side is on the COVID pandemic.
Lex Fridman (05:33.800)
And you, I mean, there's a mass amount of attack on you.
Lex Fridman (05:41.120)
Outside of being a public persona,
Joe Rogan (05:42.760)
outside of being a comedian, podcaster,
Lex Fridman (05:45.960)
you're also a human being.
Lex Fridman (05:47.600)
So how did you survive that?
Lex Fridman (05:50.640)
How did you sort of walk through that fire?
Joe Rogan (05:54.280)
Because you seem to do it with grace.
Lex Fridman (05:58.360)
I used mushrooms.
Joe Rogan (06:01.440)
That was one way I did it.
Lex Fridman (06:03.280)
Really.
Joe Rogan (06:04.120)
What's your, as Andrew Huberman would say,
Lex Fridman (06:05.800)
what was your protocol?
Joe Rogan (06:07.520)
I took, it was probably less than a gram every day.
Lex Fridman (06:12.000)
Every day?
Joe Rogan (06:12.840)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (06:13.960)
And I did a lot of like really hard working out.
Lex Fridman (06:20.560)
But also, I mean, there's a great benefit
Lex Fridman (06:26.120)
to going through anything difficult.
Lex Fridman (06:28.800)
And if you're aware, like in advance and during,
Lex Fridman (06:34.080)
like anything that's gonna happen
Joe Rogan (06:35.480)
that's very difficult and troubling,
Lex Fridman (06:38.960)
the great benefit is it gives you an opportunity to grow,
Joe Rogan (06:42.880)
gives you an opportunity to express yourself
Lex Fridman (06:45.800)
under pressure, to show your character,
Joe Rogan (06:48.560)
to show who you truly are.
Lex Fridman (06:50.200)
And it gives you an opportunity to see
Lex Fridman (06:52.720)
how you handle a very difficult situation.
Lex Fridman (06:56.240)
It also was fascinating as a person
Lex Fridman (07:00.960)
that's involved in media, right?
Lex Fridman (07:03.920)
Because what we're doing right now is media,
Joe Rogan (07:06.400)
even though it seems, like podcasts seem
Lex Fridman (07:10.600)
like we're just having a conversation, right?
Lex Fridman (07:12.560)
And they are, and in that sense,
Lex Fridman (07:15.280)
it's kind of the purest form of media
Joe Rogan (07:17.840)
because what you're doing is you're doing it
Lex Fridman (07:22.880)
without any fanfare, you're doing it without any,
Joe Rogan (07:26.920)
there's no executives looming over your head
Lex Fridman (07:30.000)
or network or big meetings about ratings
Joe Rogan (07:32.840)
or any of that stuff, but it is media.
Lex Fridman (07:35.000)
But what I got to see is the wiring under the machine
Joe Rogan (07:38.480)
of how the rest of media would try to take me out.
Lex Fridman (07:43.000)
And like when CNN would just be playing things
Joe Rogan (07:46.440)
over and over and back and forth, it was wild to watch.
Lex Fridman (07:50.480)
What was also wild to watch was people's responses
Joe Rogan (07:54.600)
because I gained two million subscribers during that time.
Lex Fridman (08:00.520)
Like the podcast never got bigger.
Joe Rogan (08:02.560)
It just kept growing, it had never been bigger
Lex Fridman (08:05.880)
than it had been at the end of all of it.
Joe Rogan (08:09.120)
It just made it bigger.
Lex Fridman (08:10.560)
And ultimately, if you've fucked up in the past
Joe Rogan (08:16.200)
or made mistakes or done something wrong,
Lex Fridman (08:19.240)
that gives you an opportunity to discuss those things
Lex Fridman (08:22.120)
and to say, to apologize if you feel the need to apologize
Lex Fridman (08:26.440)
and also to just address it.
Lex Fridman (08:29.240)
And so people under that kind of pressure,
Lex Fridman (08:32.800)
it's an opportunity for them to understand
Lex Fridman (08:34.480)
how you think about things honestly,
Lex Fridman (08:36.760)
how you actually honestly think about things.
Lex Fridman (08:39.080)
And there's no more honesty that you get out of a person
Lex Fridman (08:42.040)
than when that person is under extreme duress.
Lex Fridman (08:45.120)
So I think in that sense, I mean, it's horrible to say
Lex Fridman (08:48.560)
that it's a benefit, that it's a good thing
Joe Rogan (08:50.360)
that it happened, but it was a benefit.
Lex Fridman (08:52.520)
Can you see how it can break a person?
Joe Rogan (08:54.520)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (08:55.360)
I've gotten the chance to experience small attacks
Joe Rogan (08:59.080)
here and there, ones that get to the core of things.
Lex Fridman (09:01.680)
Like even just talking about Russia and Ukraine,
Joe Rogan (09:06.800)
to Stephen Calkin or Oliver Stone,
Lex Fridman (09:09.160)
looking at different perspectives,
Joe Rogan (09:10.720)
you gain, for me, feeling like a sizable number of people
Lex Fridman (09:15.600)
who really don't like you and say things about you
Joe Rogan (09:20.600)
that may be cut deep for a reason I don't understand why.
Lex Fridman (09:26.280)
It's just my own psychology.
Joe Rogan (09:28.640)
Well, it's also because you can't defend yourself
Lex Fridman (09:30.760)
because they're saying it and you're not there
Lex Fridman (09:33.640)
and you don't have any opportunity for a rebuttal.
Lex Fridman (09:37.440)
And if you do have a rebuttal, you're doing it publicly
Lex Fridman (09:40.200)
and you're opening it up to the whole world to chime in.
Lex Fridman (09:43.160)
And there's a general tendency that people have
Joe Rogan (09:47.040)
towards negativity when they're interacting
Lex Fridman (09:49.200)
with strangers online,
Joe Rogan (09:51.040)
especially about controversial subjects.
Lex Fridman (09:53.240)
And even if it's only 10% of the people, it's one out of 10.
Joe Rogan (09:56.720)
That's a lot.
Lex Fridman (09:57.840)
That's a lot of negativity when you're dealing
Joe Rogan (09:59.640)
with thousands and thousands of tweets.
Lex Fridman (10:02.080)
Yeah, and I think,
Joe Rogan (10:04.400)
maybe I'm just a very self critical person,
Lex Fridman (10:06.440)
but I hear their words and I probably,
Joe Rogan (10:09.120)
somewhere deep inside, see the truth in the criticism,
Lex Fridman (10:12.560)
in some aspect of the criticism, and that's why it hurts.
Lex Fridman (10:17.080)
But it's in one aspect of you.
Lex Fridman (10:20.600)
Right.
Lex Fridman (10:21.440)
But when you're reading it, it's so,
Lex Fridman (10:24.520)
it's boiled down to this one thing,
Joe Rogan (10:28.320)
as if that one thing defines you totally.
Lex Fridman (10:31.520)
Like if you've made a mistake,
Joe Rogan (10:33.200)
if you've said something that you shouldn't have said,
Lex Fridman (10:36.000)
or if you said something and maybe you should have
Joe Rogan (10:39.920)
considered it more carefully,
Lex Fridman (10:41.560)
given the gravity of the situation,
Joe Rogan (10:45.280)
that's just a part of being a person.
Lex Fridman (10:47.160)
And it's also part of being a person where you're
Joe Rogan (10:49.600)
communicating with things publicly in real time,
Lex Fridman (10:53.120)
thinking out loud, which is what we do.
Joe Rogan (10:56.000)
It's complex and most people don't do it.
Lex Fridman (10:58.480)
And you're gonna have these,
Joe Rogan (11:00.880)
you're gonna have genuine hot takes
Lex Fridman (11:03.880)
where people just see what you said
Lex Fridman (11:07.040)
and go, why did he say that?
Lex Fridman (11:08.440)
Fuck him.
Joe Rogan (11:09.840)
He doesn't know anything about, he doesn't live in Ukraine.
Lex Fridman (11:13.200)
It's like, there's people that are gonna have takes
Joe Rogan (11:15.440)
on that in that way.
Lex Fridman (11:17.640)
And then there's also gonna be these disingenuous people
Joe Rogan (11:20.520)
who just use any kind of controversial topic or subject
Lex Fridman (11:24.320)
as an opportunity for them to get clicks or views.
Lex Fridman (11:26.600)
But the number of those people can be quite large.
Lex Fridman (11:29.880)
Quite large.
Lex Fridman (11:30.840)
And so, going back to,
Lex Fridman (11:33.600)
do you think it can destroy a person?
Joe Rogan (11:35.040)
Because I kind of worry about this.
Lex Fridman (11:36.280)
And you're, in many ways, but in this way, an inspiration
Joe Rogan (11:40.040)
that it didn't seem to have destroyed you.
Lex Fridman (11:42.760)
But is that?
Joe Rogan (11:43.600)
I kept doing shows, I kept doing standup.
Lex Fridman (11:46.160)
I ignored everything.
Joe Rogan (11:47.720)
I didn't read any of it.
Lex Fridman (11:49.480)
So it is possible to just?
Joe Rogan (11:50.800)
100%, yes.
Lex Fridman (11:53.280)
Yeah.
Joe Rogan (11:54.280)
I ignored it all.
Lex Fridman (11:55.120)
But you have like.
Joe Rogan (11:55.960)
I knew it was there.
Lex Fridman (11:56.800)
Like your family didn't bring it up.
Joe Rogan (11:58.400)
My family was very aware of it.
Lex Fridman (12:00.320)
My wife was aware of it.
Lex Fridman (12:01.160)
What was the conversation like?
Lex Fridman (12:02.760)
If your wife is aware of it, is there like a rule?
Joe Rogan (12:06.240)
Pretend it's not happening.
Lex Fridman (12:07.520)
No.
Joe Rogan (12:08.360)
Just like.
Lex Fridman (12:09.200)
Well, I tell her, don't ever read.
Joe Rogan (12:10.160)
Past the green beans.
Lex Fridman (12:11.480)
Yeah.
Joe Rogan (12:12.520)
I don't ever let her like read negative articles to me.
Lex Fridman (12:16.280)
You know, I don't want them.
Joe Rogan (12:17.480)
I don't, he care.
Lex Fridman (12:18.680)
I go, that's a person's opinion.
Joe Rogan (12:20.240)
You take a person's opinion, you write it down.
Lex Fridman (12:22.320)
Doesn't give it any more relevance.
Joe Rogan (12:23.760)
Like that person, you know, could have had that opinion in silence.
Lex Fridman (12:27.480)
They could have had it with some friends at dinner.
Joe Rogan (12:29.520)
They don't like me, whatever.
Lex Fridman (12:30.680)
I don't want to read it.
Joe Rogan (12:31.400)
I don't want to absorb it.
Lex Fridman (12:32.160)
I don't even know them, especially if I'm not there.
Lex Fridman (12:34.520)
And especially if it's some biased and it's it's not an objective opinion of me.
Joe Rogan (12:41.640)
It's this, you know, they have a narrative and they want to stick to that narrative
Lex Fridman (12:46.280)
and they want to write an article and they piece it all together, make you a piece of shit.
Lex Fridman (12:50.520)
And that's their prerogative.
Joe Rogan (12:51.680)
They're completely out to do that.
Lex Fridman (12:53.000)
But I know I shouldn't absorb that.
Joe Rogan (12:55.040)
I shouldn't take that in.
Lex Fridman (12:56.520)
You're not supposed to be taking in the opinion of the world.
Joe Rogan (13:00.920)
You're supposed to be taking in the opinion of small groups of people that you encounter so that you get an understanding of how you make them feel.
Lex Fridman (13:09.800)
And then maybe you say to yourself, maybe I come across too rude or maybe I come across too insensitive or maybe maybe I could do better in this way or that way.
Joe Rogan (13:21.560)
That's how we sort of shape our personalities and it's how we we develop our social skills.
Lex Fridman (13:26.440)
But when the people don't know you and they have this like distorted narrative of you and, you know, there's fucking millions of people.
Joe Rogan (13:35.640)
There's so many people.
Joe Rogan (13:36.880)
You can't be saying, you know, actually, I mean, millions of people that are like communicating about something like during the height of the, you know, the attempt to cancel me or whatever that is.
Joe Rogan (13:47.480)
I don't know how many people were involved in that.
Lex Fridman (13:50.160)
People take this kind of stuff seriously.
Lex Fridman (13:51.680)
But the problem is the false narratives take hold and then you have meetings, you have groups, you have it builds on top of each other and there's this outrage and then it reaches you at some point and it can just have these destructive effects.
Lex Fridman (14:05.480)
It can, but it also sometimes doesn't.
Lex Fridman (14:10.040)
And in my case, it didn't.
Lex Fridman (14:11.280)
It didn't work.
Lex Fridman (14:12.600)
What lessons did you draw from that?
Lex Fridman (14:15.960)
Mushrooms, exercise.
Joe Rogan (14:17.960)
Mushrooms and exercise, exercise is critical.
Lex Fridman (14:20.600)
So I don't think the mushrooms by themselves would have worked.
Lex Fridman (14:22.760)
But that's the thing that I use for everything is the brutal exercise.
Lex Fridman (14:27.080)
Like my exercise routines are horrible.
Lex Fridman (14:30.040)
And because of that, everything else is easier.
Lex Fridman (14:33.120)
I create my own bullshit and my own bullshit is so much harder.
Lex Fridman (14:37.400)
And it's not just that.
Lex Fridman (14:38.640)
It's also sauna and cold plunge and these torture sessions.
Joe Rogan (14:43.360)
They in enduring those when you endure those, it makes enduring other things much easier.
Lex Fridman (14:50.120)
And it's also an understanding of what's happening.
Joe Rogan (14:53.120)
Like you have to know, like media, you have to understand, like what the hot take, you know, YouTube, social media, podcast, ecosphere is doing.
Joe Rogan (15:05.640)
Like if they're talking about, you know, Lex Friedman said this and we have to comment on that and, you know, Lex gets canceled in all capital letters on a YouTube clip.
Lex Fridman (15:15.360)
And if you you watch that, you're fucking crazy.
Lex Fridman (15:17.640)
What are you doing, absorbing all this negativity?
Joe Rogan (15:19.880)
It's not good for you.
Joe Rogan (15:20.760)
You are you, you know, you and you know, generally, if you've made a mistake, you know, generally, if people are upset with you.
Joe Rogan (15:27.880)
You posted this awesome video on your Instagram of a woman who was being interviewed in 19, late 1920s, maybe.
Lex Fridman (15:35.800)
Yes. Yeah.
Lex Fridman (15:38.040)
And she's close to 100 years old.
Lex Fridman (15:40.800)
So she's lived through the Civil War, through World War One.
Joe Rogan (15:44.440)
She was at the time living through the early days of the Great Depression.
Lex Fridman (15:48.480)
So I was just looking back, you know, what have we as a human civilization in recent times survived, especially in the United States?
Joe Rogan (15:56.200)
You're talking about the two world wars in the 20th century, the Great Depression, the Spanish food, the pandemic at the beginning of the 20th century.
Lex Fridman (16:04.960)
Yeah. What do we do in the United States?
Joe Rogan (16:07.640)
9 11. If you think of what are the traumatic events that shook our world, it's 9 11.
Lex Fridman (16:15.080)
It made us rethink our place in the world.
Joe Rogan (16:19.560)
The pandemic pandemic is a huge one is one of the bigger ones, because it also accelerated and exacerbated
Joe Rogan (16:26.120)
our anxiety, which people have a certain level of anxiety already, especially sedentary people.
Joe Rogan (16:32.320)
They have a very high level of anxiety already because I don't think they're they're giving their body what it what it needs.
Joe Rogan (16:40.360)
I don't think they're you know, your body has certain requirements in terms of movement.
Lex Fridman (16:44.960)
And when you deny your body those requirements, I think there's like a general level of anxiety that exists in almost everyone.
Lex Fridman (16:52.200)
And then you have people obviously that have mental health issues and that also exacerbates the anxiety.
Joe Rogan (16:58.720)
The lockdown exacerbated the anxiety, losing loved ones to the pandemic, exacerbated anxiety.
Lex Fridman (17:05.600)
And then there was the the division that the different schools of thought, the people that were never going to get vaccinated no matter what.
Joe Rogan (17:15.000)
I ain't trusting it. People thought there was microchips in there.
Joe Rogan (17:18.240)
People that thought that, you know, Fauci's the demon and there's there was a lot.
Lex Fridman (17:23.960)
And there's also like political leanings.
Joe Rogan (17:27.040)
The right wing people tended to not want to be vaccinated, whereas the left wing people, for whatever reason, all of a sudden are trusting pharmaceutical companies like explicitly.
Joe Rogan (17:38.640)
It was weird. It was a weird time.
Lex Fridman (17:41.720)
And I think over time, as it's going to as it gets analyzed and we break it down, it's going to be one of the weirder moments for shaping human culture.
Lex Fridman (17:51.400)
And unfortunately for throwing gasoline on this already burning fire of, you know, of conflict between the various factions of of thought in this country.
Joe Rogan (18:08.320)
Just it's already a weird time, you know, post Trump, like the Trump era is also going to be one of the weirder times.
Joe Rogan (18:18.040)
When when people look back historically about the division in this country, he's such a polarizing figure that so many people felt like.
Joe Rogan (18:28.360)
They could abandon their own ethics and morals and principles just to attack him and anybody who supports him because he is an existential threat to democracy itself.
Lex Fridman (18:43.320)
But don't you think it's not a cause, but maybe like a symptom, like it's going to get you said it got real weird.
Lex Fridman (18:49.200)
Maybe it's going to get weirder. Yeah, I think it's going to get weirder.
Joe Rogan (18:52.640)
He's going to run again. You think he wins? Well, he's running against a dead man.
Joe Rogan (18:57.120)
You know, I mean, Biden shakes hands with people that aren't even there when he gets off stage.
Joe Rogan (19:01.960)
I think he's seeing ghosts. Yeah. You see him on Jimmy Kimmel the other day? No. Well, he was just rambling.
Joe Rogan (19:07.360)
I mean, he's if he was anyone else, if he was a Republican, if that was Donald Trump doing that, every fucking talk show would be screaming for him to be off the air.
Lex Fridman (19:19.760)
And by the way, I'm not a Trump supporter in any way, shape or form.
Joe Rogan (19:23.640)
I've had the opportunity to have him on my show more than once. I've said no every time.
Joe Rogan (19:27.640)
I don't want to help him. I'm not interested in helping. The night is still young.
Lex Fridman (19:31.720)
We'll see if I have him on the night is still young. I think I'll have him on. I think you'll have him on. Really?
Lex Fridman (19:36.760)
Why do you think that? Because you'll have Putin on. And you're competitive as fuck.
Joe Rogan (19:43.560)
No, I think ultimately, I mean, you had you've had a lot of people that I think you might you may otherwise be skeptical.
Joe Rogan (19:56.200)
Would I have a good conversation, which I think is your metric. You don't care about politics.
Lex Fridman (1:00:01.320)
You just got your heart broken.
Joe Rogan (1:00:02.680)
You haven't slept in days.
Lex Fridman (1:00:04.200)
You're a different person all the time.
Lex Fridman (1:00:06.440)
And you go on to that stage.
Lex Fridman (1:00:11.000)
You're in the neighborhood of who Lex Friedman is.
Joe Rogan (1:00:14.360)
You're in the Lex Friedman neighborhood.
Lex Fridman (1:00:15.720)
Which Lex Friedman am I going to get?
Joe Rogan (1:00:17.320)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:00:17.880)
You know?
Joe Rogan (1:00:18.360)
Energy levels.
Lex Fridman (1:00:19.400)
Yeah.
Joe Rogan (1:00:20.040)
It depends.
Lex Fridman (1:00:20.680)
It all depends.
Joe Rogan (1:00:21.560)
But, oh, the other thing with Kill Tony is it's videotaped.
Lex Fridman (1:00:25.480)
Yes, so you eating shit is on there forever.
Joe Rogan (1:00:29.320)
Forever.
Lex Fridman (1:00:29.800)
The world can see it.
Lex Fridman (1:00:31.160)
But it's one of the most important shows in comedy.
Lex Fridman (1:00:33.720)
It's the most important show in comedy.
Joe Rogan (1:00:36.120)
Because, first of all, it establishes stand up in a sense that, like, for the open micers,
Joe Rogan (1:00:44.120)
for the people that are starting it out, it establishes that the most important thing
Joe Rogan (1:00:48.600)
is to be funny.
Lex Fridman (1:00:49.560)
Like, this is what the art form is all about.
Lex Fridman (1:00:51.560)
And there's a lot of insecurity attached to that and a lot of fears.
Lex Fridman (1:00:54.520)
And so to alleviate some of those insecurities and fears, people will decide that the message
Joe Rogan (1:01:01.480)
is more important.
Lex Fridman (1:01:02.840)
And they'll pretend that you have to be socially aware, that you have to promote things that
Joe Rogan (1:01:16.520)
are positive in your comedy, which is bullshit.
Lex Fridman (1:01:20.120)
The people that say that, they're all bad.
Joe Rogan (1:01:22.600)
They're all bad at comedy.
Lex Fridman (1:01:23.960)
And that's where the insecurity is.
Joe Rogan (1:01:25.720)
It's like they can't just kill.
Lex Fridman (1:01:27.320)
So they have to pretend that they're supposed to be socially aware.
Lex Fridman (1:01:30.360)
And that being socially aware is an important part into society.
Lex Fridman (1:01:33.720)
Like, let me explain something really clearly.
Joe Rogan (1:01:36.120)
It's not a fucking person on earth who's ever changed their life because of a joke.
Lex Fridman (1:01:41.560)
That's not what they're there for.
Joe Rogan (1:01:42.920)
They're there for jokes.
Joe Rogan (1:01:44.120)
The people that say that, they say that socially important comedy is the only comedy that's
Joe Rogan (1:01:49.720)
necessary, the only comedy that you have to do.
Lex Fridman (1:01:52.120)
That is just because they suck.
Joe Rogan (1:01:54.280)
That is it.
Lex Fridman (1:01:55.160)
It's like the cop out is that they can't do the real comedy.
Joe Rogan (1:01:59.000)
They can't crush.
Joe Rogan (1:02:00.200)
It's not like someone goes from being, you know, take like Shane Gillis, one of the best
Joe Rogan (1:02:05.160)
comics up and coming right now.
Lex Fridman (1:02:06.680)
He's fucking fantastic.
Joe Rogan (1:02:08.280)
I can't recommend enough seeing that guy live.
Lex Fridman (1:02:10.840)
I work with him in Irvine, and I hadn't seen like his whole set.
Joe Rogan (1:02:14.600)
I was crying.
Lex Fridman (1:02:15.880)
I mean, he's so good.
Joe Rogan (1:02:17.080)
I heard he's a racist.
Lex Fridman (1:02:19.000)
I haven't listened to any of his material, no.
Joe Rogan (1:02:20.840)
He's so good.
Lex Fridman (1:02:23.000)
And his comedy is just all just trying to be as funny as possible.
Joe Rogan (1:02:29.320)
There's not a chance in hell that guy's just going to go woke and he's just going to start
Joe Rogan (1:02:33.080)
promoting some sort of, you know, socially conscious agenda that's, you know, facetious
Lex Fridman (1:02:39.800)
and just a bunch of nonsense that he's trying to elevate his own personal brand and virtue
Lex Fridman (1:02:46.280)
signal.
Joe Rogan (1:02:46.840)
That's not going to happen.
Joe Rogan (1:02:47.640)
The thing about Kill Tony is in that because you only have one minute and because it's
Joe Rogan (1:02:53.000)
live and because you don't want Tony shitting on you, everybody else shitting on you, everybody's
Lex Fridman (1:02:57.000)
just gearing up to try to be as funny as possible.
Lex Fridman (1:02:59.960)
And no one cares if you are gay or straight or Asian or black or trans or nonbinary.
Lex Fridman (1:03:07.720)
Nobody gives a fuck.
Lex Fridman (1:03:09.080)
Are you funny?
Lex Fridman (1:03:10.440)
If you're funny, you're in and everybody loves you.
Joe Rogan (1:03:13.240)
You could be 80.
Lex Fridman (1:03:14.840)
You could be 20.
Joe Rogan (1:03:16.040)
Nobody gives a shit.
Lex Fridman (1:03:18.360)
You could be a woman or a man or ambiguous.
Joe Rogan (1:03:21.560)
Nobody fucking cares.
Lex Fridman (1:03:23.160)
Are you funny?
Lex Fridman (1:03:23.880)
And that's the most important thing for a community of comedy to really promote comedy.
Lex Fridman (1:03:29.880)
Just funny.
Joe Rogan (1:03:31.000)
Just be funny.
Lex Fridman (1:03:32.200)
And so in that sense, Kill Tony is a real cornerstone of comedy.
Joe Rogan (1:03:37.240)
It's a reminder of what comedy is supposed to be.
Joe Rogan (1:03:39.400)
That said, even the funniest stuff has underneath it some wisdom that comes out of it, but that's
Joe Rogan (1:03:46.280)
not the primary goal of it.
Lex Fridman (1:03:47.880)
Yeah.
Joe Rogan (1:03:48.120)
I mean, it might be inspiring and fun.
Lex Fridman (1:03:50.520)
Tim Dillon's a great example of that.
Joe Rogan (1:03:51.960)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:03:52.680)
He's got some amazing insights in his comedy, but still it's fucking comedy.
Joe Rogan (1:03:58.280)
It's all about the funny.
Lex Fridman (1:03:59.480)
Yeah, it's all of the funny.
Joe Rogan (1:04:00.680)
He's the best at doing that, especially in a podcast form about weaving really important
Lex Fridman (1:04:06.600)
points in with hilarious, obviously, just jokes.
Joe Rogan (1:04:14.600)
Let me ask you, speaking of Tim Dillon, a chaotic fucked up individual.
Lex Fridman (1:04:21.160)
Can we go to your childhood real quick?
Joe Rogan (1:04:24.200)
A brief stroll.
Lex Fridman (1:04:25.640)
So your mom and dad split up when you were five.
Joe Rogan (1:04:30.040)
From a younging perspective, if you look at your subconscious, what impact do you think
Lex Fridman (1:04:35.480)
that had on you informing who you are as a man, as a human being?
Joe Rogan (1:04:40.360)
Well, at the time I thought that my father was like a hero.
Lex Fridman (1:04:45.880)
He was my dad.
Joe Rogan (1:04:46.920)
I think every kid thinks like that about his dad.
Lex Fridman (1:04:49.560)
His dad is like, your dad's your protector.
Joe Rogan (1:04:52.520)
Your dad is like the coolest guy in the world.
Lex Fridman (1:04:54.440)
That's what you like.
Joe Rogan (1:04:56.040)
Yeah.
Joe Rogan (1:04:56.680)
Everybody wants to be like their dad, especially if your dad is like an imposing figure.
Joe Rogan (1:05:01.080)
I remember one time me and my cousin got in a fight over nothing.
Lex Fridman (1:05:04.840)
It was like over who's tougher, King Kong or Godzilla.
Joe Rogan (1:05:08.520)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:05:09.240)
Over nothing.
Joe Rogan (1:05:09.960)
That's an important, but yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:05:13.240)
Actual fight, actual physical fight.
Joe Rogan (1:05:14.520)
I punched him in the face.
Lex Fridman (1:05:17.720)
This is when you were like five?
Joe Rogan (1:05:19.080)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:05:20.680)
Which side were you on?
Joe Rogan (1:05:21.880)
King Kong.
Lex Fridman (1:05:22.520)
Okay.
Joe Rogan (1:05:23.320)
I was wrong.
Lex Fridman (1:05:24.360)
Godzilla's like way bigger.
Joe Rogan (1:05:26.280)
Godzilla's 500 feet tall and he shoots fire out of his mouth.
Lex Fridman (1:05:30.440)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:05:31.240)
Are you sure?
Lex Fridman (1:05:32.200)
I mean, there's, there's an argument to be made.
Lex Fridman (1:05:35.160)
It's not all about size, right?
Lex Fridman (1:05:37.240)
No, there's no argument to be made.
Joe Rogan (1:05:38.920)
500 feet tall versus 50 feet tall.
Lex Fridman (1:05:41.080)
One's a gigantic dinosaur.
Joe Rogan (1:05:42.840)
One is a stupid monkey who gets shot down by a plane.
Lex Fridman (1:05:46.360)
You don't think you can't kill Godzilla?
Joe Rogan (1:05:48.200)
Godzilla, like no back.
Lex Fridman (1:05:49.800)
No, you can't kill Godzilla with a plane.
Joe Rogan (1:05:54.840)
Like that shit wouldn't work in Godzilla killed King Kong.
Lex Fridman (1:05:59.720)
King Kong and the new movies kept growing.
Joe Rogan (1:06:02.040)
It's getting bigger and bigger.
Lex Fridman (1:06:03.080)
It got to the point where he's as big as Godzilla.
Joe Rogan (1:06:05.720)
It just feels like King Kong is stronger.
Lex Fridman (1:06:08.520)
Stop.
Joe Rogan (1:06:11.160)
Backtake, backtake, immediate backtake.
Lex Fridman (1:06:13.720)
You don't think there's a backtake.
Joe Rogan (1:06:15.160)
There's a different.
Lex Fridman (1:06:15.880)
If he's the same size.
Joe Rogan (1:06:17.080)
Human weapons and two animals going at it of a different size.
Lex Fridman (1:06:21.320)
You don't think there's in the jungle,
Joe Rogan (1:06:23.480)
a smaller animal could take on a bigger animal.
Lex Fridman (1:06:25.240)
Like a monkey versus a, let's see, a lion.
Joe Rogan (1:06:29.640)
Monkey versus a bear.
Lex Fridman (1:06:31.240)
What?
Lex Fridman (1:06:31.640)
Who wins?
Lex Fridman (1:06:32.200)
A monkey versus a bear.
Joe Rogan (1:06:33.240)
Not a monkey.
Lex Fridman (1:06:33.960)
Not a monkey.
Lex Fridman (1:06:34.520)
What's the strongest ape?
Lex Fridman (1:06:37.720)
No, but gorillas eat.
Joe Rogan (1:06:38.920)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:06:39.320)
Gorilla can't do back takes.
Joe Rogan (1:06:40.600)
I'm thinking of like a smaller.
Lex Fridman (1:06:43.560)
You know what I'm saying?
Joe Rogan (1:06:44.280)
Because in Jiu Jitsu you see this all the time.
Lex Fridman (1:06:45.960)
You remember that scene in Talladega Nights?
Lex Fridman (1:06:48.760)
Do you know Talladega Nights?
Lex Fridman (1:06:50.200)
Where the little boy's talking to his grandpa?
Joe Rogan (1:06:52.280)
I'll be all over you like a spider monkey.
Lex Fridman (1:06:55.320)
Exactly.
Joe Rogan (1:06:55.800)
Spider monkey.
Lex Fridman (1:06:56.360)
I was thinking.
Joe Rogan (1:06:57.560)
All right.
Lex Fridman (1:06:58.040)
There's some animals.
Joe Rogan (1:06:59.000)
Like here's a better example.
Lex Fridman (1:07:00.360)
A wolverine.
Joe Rogan (1:07:01.560)
Wolverines chase wolves and bears off of their kills.
Lex Fridman (1:07:05.480)
And they're not very big at all.
Joe Rogan (1:07:06.920)
They're just so ferocious.
Lex Fridman (1:07:08.840)
And they're so durable.
Joe Rogan (1:07:10.200)
Like it's very hard to kill a wolverine.
Lex Fridman (1:07:12.280)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:07:12.760)
And there's videos of like cats.
Lex Fridman (1:07:14.520)
Like not actual cats.
Joe Rogan (1:07:15.560)
Like domestic cats or domestic dogs starting shit with much larger animals.
Lex Fridman (1:07:21.880)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:07:22.360)
And if they're ferocious enough.
Lex Fridman (1:07:24.360)
Well, pit bulls are a great example of that.
Joe Rogan (1:07:26.280)
Pit bulls are small.
Lex Fridman (1:07:27.240)
Like real game bred pit bulls are like 35, 45 pounds.
Lex Fridman (1:07:31.080)
And they'll kill much larger dogs.
Lex Fridman (1:07:34.120)
Anyway, you were on King Kong's side.
Joe Rogan (1:07:36.280)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:07:36.520)
So shit out of your cousin.
Joe Rogan (1:07:37.720)
I remember he said to me like I thought it was in like real trouble.
Lex Fridman (1:07:41.560)
Because I remember my cousin's mom was yelling at me.
Lex Fridman (1:07:44.520)
And it was like, you monster.
Lex Fridman (1:07:46.120)
All this crazy shit.
Lex Fridman (1:07:47.480)
So my dad got me alone.
Lex Fridman (1:07:50.920)
And he said, tell me what happened.
Lex Fridman (1:07:52.920)
And I told him, you know, we got in a fight.
Lex Fridman (1:07:56.600)
We were arguing.
Joe Rogan (1:07:57.800)
We were King Kong, Godzilla.
Lex Fridman (1:07:59.960)
And I punched him in the face.
Lex Fridman (1:08:02.040)
And he goes, did you cry?
Lex Fridman (1:08:03.480)
I go, no.
Joe Rogan (1:08:04.280)
He goes, good.
Lex Fridman (1:08:05.080)
Don't ever cry.
Lex Fridman (1:08:07.320)
And I remember that.
Lex Fridman (1:08:09.400)
Like, whoa, okay.
Lex Fridman (1:08:11.400)
And I remember thinking, all right.
Joe Rogan (1:08:12.440)
I'm just going to start punching people because like obviously my dad thinks it's a good idea
Joe Rogan (1:08:18.520)
if I go running around punching people as long as I don't cry.
Joe Rogan (1:08:21.480)
Like, I remember certain things about, you know, and also like this is, again, like we're
Joe Rogan (1:08:30.280)
talking about watching Lenny Bruce and getting a timeline of what the world was like back
Lex Fridman (1:08:37.080)
then.
Joe Rogan (1:08:37.560)
This is a different world, you know, in 1970.
Lex Fridman (1:08:41.160)
This would have been 1972.
Joe Rogan (1:08:43.160)
It's a different world back then, man.
Lex Fridman (1:08:45.000)
Like a really different world.
Joe Rogan (1:08:47.240)
It's some of that, so Carl Jung talked about the shadow.
Joe Rogan (1:08:52.040)
It's the unconscious where you have dark stuff and oftentimes you use it to project.
Joe Rogan (1:08:58.280)
There's stuff that you're very self critical about yourself.
Lex Fridman (1:09:01.640)
But because it's in your unconscious, you use it to project onto others.
Joe Rogan (1:09:06.280)
You see it as flaws in others.
Lex Fridman (1:09:08.360)
And that's a good way to, like whatever, he gives a quote, like everything that irritates
Joe Rogan (1:09:14.120)
us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.
Lex Fridman (1:09:17.480)
So that's a nice way to investigate yourself.
Joe Rogan (1:09:21.800)
Like something that pisses you off, you start asking questions of your own mind, and that's
Lex Fridman (1:09:26.360)
how you bring it to the surface.
Lex Fridman (1:09:27.720)
But anyway, from that, those are formative years.
Lex Fridman (1:09:31.160)
From that time, is there still stuff in your unconscious you think you haven't examined?
Lex Fridman (1:09:36.120)
Some dark shit?
Lex Fridman (1:09:37.400)
I don't think so.
Joe Rogan (1:09:38.520)
I don't, I'm not aware if it is.
Joe Rogan (1:09:41.640)
Cause I've looked, you know, like if someone, you know, someone says, you know, I left something
Joe Rogan (1:09:49.720)
over your house.
Lex Fridman (1:09:50.720)
Like, where'd you leave it?
Joe Rogan (1:09:51.720)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (1:09:52.720)
Like, all right, I'll go look.
Joe Rogan (1:09:53.720)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:09:54.720)
I'll get a real thorough look.
Lex Fridman (1:09:55.720)
But I'm pretty sure.
Lex Fridman (1:09:56.720)
Pretty sure it's not there.
Joe Rogan (1:09:57.720)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:09:58.720)
Yeah.
Joe Rogan (1:09:59.720)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (1:10:00.720)
I think I've looked.
Joe Rogan (1:10:01.720)
I mean, it certainly had an effect.
Joe Rogan (1:10:02.720)
I think the positive effect also was compounded by the fact that when my mother married my
Joe Rogan (1:10:08.280)
stepdad, who's a great guy, who was a hippie, very different, we moved around a lot.
Lex Fridman (1:10:15.520)
And so the bad thing about that was I didn't really develop longterm friends.
Joe Rogan (1:10:19.980)
The good thing about that was that I was forced to develop my own opinions about things instead
Lex Fridman (1:10:24.920)
of adopting an opinion of the neighborhood and the group about anything.
Joe Rogan (1:10:29.720)
I was forced to form my own thoughts and opinions about almost everything.
Lex Fridman (1:10:35.960)
And so it made me much more of an independent thinker.
Lex Fridman (1:10:39.680)
So that on top of the fact that losing my quote unquote hero very early on and then
Joe Rogan (1:10:47.820)
having to form my own opinions about things, it left me with a very independent streak
Joe Rogan (1:10:55.520)
in terms of...
Lex Fridman (1:10:56.520)
And if I hadn't done the things that I got interested in, martial arts and then comedy,
Joe Rogan (1:11:03.520)
if I hadn't gotten interested in those things, I would have been fucked because I was just
Lex Fridman (1:11:07.520)
too independent for normal jobs.
Joe Rogan (1:11:11.080)
I was too independent for school.
Lex Fridman (1:11:12.840)
I just didn't want to listen to people.
Joe Rogan (1:11:15.240)
I was too feral.
Lex Fridman (1:11:16.640)
I just didn't want to sit still.
Joe Rogan (1:11:20.340)
If I was with the wrong parents, especially today, I most certainly would have been medicated.
Joe Rogan (1:11:25.800)
Yeah, there's so many possible trajectories you can imagine where you would have not been
Joe Rogan (1:11:30.960)
the person you are today.
Lex Fridman (1:11:32.200)
Oh, yeah.
Joe Rogan (1:11:33.200)
That's probably one of the best possible.
Lex Fridman (1:11:38.160)
This particular storyline you're living through is one of the better ones.
Joe Rogan (1:11:41.660)
This timeline is as good as it gets for someone like me.
Joe Rogan (1:11:46.000)
Is there advice you can give to people, to young kids that are living through a shitty
Lex Fridman (1:11:51.320)
situation of any sort, a tough life?
Lex Fridman (1:11:54.720)
Find a thing you like.
Joe Rogan (1:11:56.620)
Try to find a thing that you really enjoy.
Lex Fridman (1:11:58.480)
Try to find a thing that you're passionate about.
Joe Rogan (1:12:00.000)
Like an activity.
Lex Fridman (1:12:01.000)
Yes.
Joe Rogan (1:12:02.000)
For me, early on, it was drawing.
Lex Fridman (1:12:03.000)
It was illustrations.
Joe Rogan (1:12:04.000)
It was comic books.
Lex Fridman (1:12:05.280)
I wanted to be a comic book illustrator.
Joe Rogan (1:12:07.640)
Then it went from comic book drawing and illustrations to martial arts.
Lex Fridman (1:12:14.920)
It was just another thing that I was very, very passionate about.
Joe Rogan (1:12:21.660)
That was my vehicle out of my dilemma.
Joe Rogan (1:12:25.440)
That was my vehicle out of my own anxiety and trauma and my own issues and insecurities.
Joe Rogan (1:12:34.840)
Find something.
Joe Rogan (1:12:35.940)
Find a thing that you genuinely enjoy because getting good at things you genuinely enjoy
Joe Rogan (1:12:42.420)
is extremely beneficial for young people because it lets you know that everybody thinks they're
Lex Fridman (1:12:49.840)
a loser.
Joe Rogan (1:12:50.840)
Every young person thinks they're a loser, at least a young person in the situation I
Lex Fridman (1:12:54.200)
was at.
Joe Rogan (1:12:55.200)
I didn't know I wasn't a loser until I started winning, until I started doing martial arts.
Joe Rogan (1:13:00.400)
Martial arts taught me that I could get better at stuff, that I wasn't really a loser.
Joe Rogan (1:13:06.680)
I just was someone who was in a fucked up situation, but you could channel all that
Lex Fridman (1:13:11.480)
energy that you have as a young person into something and get better at it.
Joe Rogan (1:13:15.720)
Then all of a sudden, people admired me.
Lex Fridman (1:13:17.240)
I was like, this is crazy.
Joe Rogan (1:13:18.760)
I went from being someone who was incredibly insecure and basically a failure to someone
Joe Rogan (1:13:26.400)
who was really successful at this one thing that was very dangerous that other people
Joe Rogan (1:13:30.620)
were scared of.
Joe Rogan (1:13:32.840)
That gave me immense confidence and also a real understanding of the direct correlation
Joe Rogan (1:13:39.460)
between hard work and success.
Lex Fridman (1:13:42.320)
And a kind of understanding that you're not a loser, that there is some diamond in the
Joe Rogan (1:13:47.480)
rough.
Joe Rogan (1:13:48.480)
There's also an understanding that you can't listen to people, because even my parents
Joe Rogan (1:13:51.200)
didn't want me to do martial arts.
Lex Fridman (1:13:53.120)
They didn't want me to fight.
Joe Rogan (1:13:54.120)
They didn't want me to do stand up.
Joe Rogan (1:13:56.800)
You have to understand who you are, and then in the face of other people's either criticism
Joe Rogan (1:14:05.440)
or lack of faith in your ability to succeed, you push through and there's great benefit
Lex Fridman (1:14:14.400)
in that.
Lex Fridman (1:14:15.400)
And you realize that you can kind of apply that to other things in life.
Joe Rogan (1:14:19.040)
You can apply that to critics, you can apply that to social media commentators, you can
Joe Rogan (1:14:23.320)
apply that to a lot of things.
Lex Fridman (1:14:25.120)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:14:26.120)
What about young people in their 50s?
Lex Fridman (1:14:30.600)
Can you give advice to like, imagine you're sitting back, probably still here in Texas
Lex Fridman (1:14:36.200)
in your 90s looking back, what advice would that guy give to you today?
Joe Rogan (1:14:41.640)
Or like people that have done some shit in their 50s, you've gone through hell of a life,
Joe Rogan (1:14:51.000)
there's potentially some incentive to settle down, you got a great family to relax.
Lex Fridman (1:14:58.640)
But maybe there's some incentive to still do epic shit, still be David Goggins running
Joe Rogan (1:15:03.000)
in the middle of the desert screaming shit into a camera.
Lex Fridman (1:15:05.760)
If you're David Goggins, you have to be David Goggins.
Joe Rogan (1:15:09.160)
I don't think there's a path for that guy that exists at this stage of his life other
Lex Fridman (1:15:14.320)
than that.
Lex Fridman (1:15:15.320)
Do you think he'll be 70 and still screaming?
Lex Fridman (1:15:17.640)
Yes.
Joe Rogan (1:15:18.640)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:15:19.640)
100%.
Joe Rogan (1:15:20.640)
100%.
Joe Rogan (1:15:21.640)
If David and I are alive, we're both 70, he's going to call me up and say, stay hard motherfucker.
Joe Rogan (1:15:30.080)
Guaranteed.
Lex Fridman (1:15:31.080)
Guaranteed.
Lex Fridman (1:15:32.080)
So lean into whatever the fuck you are at this point.
Lex Fridman (1:15:35.040)
Well, if you're enjoying it, but if you're not enjoying it, rethink your life.
Joe Rogan (1:15:39.280)
Try to figure out why you're not enjoying it.
Lex Fridman (1:15:41.680)
You still think it's possible to shift things in your 50s?
Joe Rogan (1:15:44.880)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:15:45.880)
If you're alive, you can get better.
Joe Rogan (1:15:47.280)
No matter what.
Lex Fridman (1:15:48.280)
Yeah.
Joe Rogan (1:15:49.280)
No matter what.
Lex Fridman (1:15:50.280)
If you're alive, you can shift things.
Joe Rogan (1:15:51.280)
I mean, if you're 90 years old and you have a month to live, you can apologize for the
Joe Rogan (1:15:55.840)
things you think you did wrong and maybe reconcile and shape relationships that you have with
Joe Rogan (1:16:02.320)
the people that are around you better, so that they feel differently about you after
Lex Fridman (1:16:06.040)
you're gone.
Joe Rogan (1:16:07.040)
Yeah.
Joe Rogan (1:16:08.040)
I always love people in their 70s who are like getting back into dating or something
Joe Rogan (1:16:12.080)
like that.
Lex Fridman (1:16:13.080)
Yeah.
Joe Rogan (1:16:14.080)
I was watching a video about a woman who's in her 60s who just started powerlifting.
Lex Fridman (1:16:17.120)
Nice.
Joe Rogan (1:16:18.120)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:16:19.120)
And same with Jiu Jitsu.
Joe Rogan (1:16:20.120)
You see people get into Jiu Jitsu, like a white belt that's like 70.
Lex Fridman (1:16:25.240)
Yeah.
Joe Rogan (1:16:26.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:16:27.240)
Yeah.
Joe Rogan (1:16:28.240)
There's a lot of...
Lex Fridman (1:16:29.240)
If you're alive, you can get better at stuff.
Joe Rogan (1:16:33.760)
I don't think people are happy if they don't have puzzles and complex tasks and things
Joe Rogan (1:16:40.960)
that are interesting to them, whether it's an art project or whether it's learning something
Joe Rogan (1:16:45.440)
completely new like standup comedy.
Joe Rogan (1:16:48.440)
Doing things that are difficult, it's as much of a nourishment of the mind as food is a
Joe Rogan (1:16:57.520)
nourishment of the body.
Joe Rogan (1:16:59.000)
I think you need things that are puzzling to you where you have to find your own human
Joe Rogan (1:17:07.680)
potential in the difficulty of the task and work your way through things.
Joe Rogan (1:17:13.320)
At least for me, I mean, I can only speak for me because I'm the only life that I've
Joe Rogan (1:17:18.800)
ever lived that I'm aware of.
Lex Fridman (1:17:20.640)
And in my life, that has been a 100% constant.
Joe Rogan (1:17:26.800)
I am a very happy person and I have never had a moment where I'm not doing difficult
Lex Fridman (1:17:31.000)
shit.
Joe Rogan (1:17:32.000)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:17:33.000)
Ever.
Lex Fridman (1:17:34.000)
What matters most is how well you walk through the fires.
Lex Fridman (1:17:37.200)
You just keep starting fires for yourself to walk through.
Lex Fridman (1:17:39.600)
Well, they don't necessarily have to be fires, right?
Lex Fridman (1:17:43.060)
Because fires are like kind of out of control.
Joe Rogan (1:17:45.880)
Lukewarm tasks.
Lex Fridman (1:17:46.880)
Tasks.
Joe Rogan (1:17:47.880)
The surfaces.
Lex Fridman (1:17:48.880)
Tasks.
Joe Rogan (1:17:49.880)
Give yourself something, an arduous, difficult task where you're challenged, challenged mentally
Lex Fridman (1:17:56.120)
and challenged physically.
Joe Rogan (1:17:57.120)
One of the great things about being challenged physically is it's also mental.
Joe Rogan (1:18:01.420)
The people that don't understand that have never really been challenged physically.
Joe Rogan (1:18:05.220)
People that think that physical challenges are just like, just physical.
Lex Fridman (1:18:09.160)
It's just brute grunt work.
Joe Rogan (1:18:12.140)
It's not.
Lex Fridman (1:18:13.200)
It's emotional intelligence.
Joe Rogan (1:18:15.640)
It's understanding your desire to quit and, you know, conquering your inner bitch.
Lex Fridman (1:18:21.800)
All that stuff is, it's mental.
Joe Rogan (1:18:24.480)
It's playing out inside your head and there's a mental strength that you acquire from that,
Lex Fridman (1:18:29.940)
that you can apply to intellectual pursuits.
Lex Fridman (1:18:33.040)
And the people that don't think that are the people that haven't attempted them.
Lex Fridman (1:18:39.280)
And there's an arrogance to people that only pursue intellectual exercises, only pursue
Joe Rogan (1:18:46.440)
intellectual things and don't pursue anything physical.
Joe Rogan (1:18:49.640)
That the physical stuff is base, it's grunt work, it's primal, it's not necessary.
Joe Rogan (1:18:54.200)
I don't think that's accurate.
Joe Rogan (1:18:56.360)
I don't think that they're, I mean, obviously these people like Stephen Hawking's who have
Lex Fridman (1:18:59.920)
no opportunity to do anything physical, right?
Lex Fridman (1:19:04.080)
His physical dilemma is keeping us or was keeping his heart beating.
Lex Fridman (1:19:08.340)
But for most people, I think you can really benefit from physical struggle and you benefit
Lex Fridman (1:19:14.400)
from it in a mental way.
Lex Fridman (1:19:16.880)
And I think that is overlooked.
Joe Rogan (1:19:19.160)
It's unfortunately overlooked by academics and intellectuals who they make excuses for
Lex Fridman (1:19:25.440)
why they're fat and lazy or scrawny.
Lex Fridman (1:19:28.440)
They don't need to be, it's not even about the fat or all of that.
Joe Rogan (1:19:33.280)
It's like literally there's something about the physical challenge that's really good
Joe Rogan (1:19:37.100)
for you, especially if you're academic, especially if you do intellectual type stuff.
Joe Rogan (1:19:41.340)
There's this great roboticist at MIT, Russ Tedrick, he runs barefoot to and from MIT
Lex Fridman (1:19:47.000)
every day.
Joe Rogan (1:19:48.000)
I love it, like seven, seven to 10 miles each way.
Lex Fridman (1:19:51.800)
Barefoot.
Joe Rogan (1:19:52.800)
Barefoot.
Joe Rogan (1:19:53.800)
Well, he studies legged locomotion, legged robots, so for him, it's also interesting
Lex Fridman (1:19:59.400)
how the human body moves.
Lex Fridman (1:20:00.540)
He sees the beauty in all movement.
Lex Fridman (1:20:02.920)
What do his feet look like?
Lex Fridman (1:20:04.800)
You know, calloused.
Lex Fridman (1:20:05.800)
Destroyed, right?
Lex Fridman (1:20:06.800)
No, just calloused.
Joe Rogan (1:20:07.800)
They're nice.
Joe Rogan (1:20:08.800)
They form a nice, it's not like I gave him a foot massage, but I mean, they look, and
Joe Rogan (1:20:16.040)
I don't have a foot fetish, so I don't, I'm not able to correctly evaluate another man's
Lex Fridman (1:20:21.800)
feet.
Joe Rogan (1:20:22.800)
I apologize for this, but they don't look fucked up.
Lex Fridman (1:20:25.840)
Does he run on concrete?
Joe Rogan (1:20:27.560)
Yeah, he runs all surfaces.
Lex Fridman (1:20:30.200)
And he does everything completely barefoot?
Joe Rogan (1:20:33.060)
The running part at work.
Lex Fridman (1:20:35.040)
So one of the things he has to do is fit into society, which means he has to change clothes
Lex Fridman (1:20:39.120)
and appear normal.
Lex Fridman (1:20:40.120)
Right.
Lex Fridman (1:20:41.120)
So does he wear like zero shoes?
Lex Fridman (1:20:43.880)
Yeah, those barefoot type shoes?
Joe Rogan (1:20:46.200)
No, because that's like very hippie, wokey type of thing.
Joe Rogan (1:20:50.160)
No, like he doesn't, he's barefoot when he's running and then he wears like normal looking
Joe Rogan (1:20:55.680)
stuff like dress shoes.
Lex Fridman (1:20:56.680)
How did he work his way up to running barefoot?
Lex Fridman (1:20:59.480)
So he was significantly overweight and his advisor, this other famous person at MIT who
Joe Rogan (1:21:07.840)
was a roboticist, took his own life and that made him, that made Russ face his own mortality,
Joe Rogan (1:21:15.720)
I think.
Joe Rogan (1:21:16.720)
I mean, you start to ask big questions about your wellbeing, like, holy shit, this ride
Joe Rogan (1:21:21.280)
can end at any moment.
Lex Fridman (1:21:22.280)
And so he started taking his sort of physical wellbeing seriously, but as a result of that,
Joe Rogan (1:21:28.560)
not that he, did he become like shredded, but he's also discovered the intellectual
Lex Fridman (1:21:35.440)
value, the humbling value of physical exercise.
Joe Rogan (1:21:41.880)
He's not preachy about it at all.
Lex Fridman (1:21:43.320)
I actually rarely hear him advise it to anyone.
Joe Rogan (1:21:46.560)
He just does it as a, almost like meditation or something like that.
Lex Fridman (1:21:51.920)
It's definitely a form of meditation and you can attest to that, right?
Joe Rogan (1:21:54.680)
You do quite a bit of running.
Joe Rogan (1:21:56.480)
There's a thing about a, you kind of, almost like a mantra gets formed and you get into
Joe Rogan (1:22:04.440)
it.
Lex Fridman (1:22:05.440)
It was great here in the Austin heat, a hundred degree weather.
Joe Rogan (1:22:08.200)
That tests you.
Lex Fridman (1:22:09.200)
You know what I love to do outside?
Joe Rogan (1:22:10.920)
Pull sleds.
Lex Fridman (1:22:11.920)
That's my thing.
Joe Rogan (1:22:12.920)
I love to pull sleds outside.
Lex Fridman (1:22:15.760)
In the heat.
Joe Rogan (1:22:16.760)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:22:17.760)
I did it today.
Joe Rogan (1:22:18.760)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:22:19.760)
Yeah, I love it.
Lex Fridman (1:22:20.760)
So you're also, your wife is incredible.
Lex Fridman (1:22:22.360)
You're in a relationship.
Joe Rogan (1:22:23.360)
You're married.
Lex Fridman (1:22:24.360)
You have a great family.
Lex Fridman (1:22:26.200)
What advice would you give to me and to others like me who are dumb fucks and have not found
Lex Fridman (1:22:32.300)
a relationship?
Joe Rogan (1:22:33.300)
Well, you're a great guy.
Lex Fridman (1:22:34.300)
So this definitely doesn't necessarily apply to you, but be someone who someone would want
Joe Rogan (1:22:39.920)
to be in a relationship with.
Lex Fridman (1:22:41.900)
There's a lot of people out there that want a great partner.
Joe Rogan (1:22:44.380)
They want someone in a relationship, but why would someone want to be in a relationship
Lex Fridman (1:22:48.600)
with you?
Joe Rogan (1:22:49.600)
You know, maybe you bicker a lot.
Lex Fridman (1:22:51.740)
Maybe you're jealous.
Joe Rogan (1:22:52.980)
Maybe you, uh, maybe you lie.
Joe Rogan (1:22:55.740)
Maybe you, you know, maybe you're cruel, maybe you're, you don't have a sense of humor.
Joe Rogan (1:23:02.940)
Maybe you're, you know, you're not kind.
Joe Rogan (1:23:05.200)
Like what is, what is it about you that people would not enjoy being around or the people
Lex Fridman (1:23:11.680)
avoid?
Lex Fridman (1:23:12.680)
Fix that.
Joe Rogan (1:23:13.680)
Fix that.
Lex Fridman (1:23:14.680)
Well, this applies to me as well.
Joe Rogan (1:23:15.920)
Like you, you said something with Cam Haynes.
Joe Rogan (1:23:18.360)
One of the things you admire is the, the discipline it takes to sort of juggle so many things
Lex Fridman (1:23:23.080)
and just successfully.
Lex Fridman (1:23:24.080)
I'm not sure I'm very good at that.
Lex Fridman (1:23:26.600)
So juggling all this hard work and then also a relationship.
Lex Fridman (1:23:29.960)
Also relationship, also family, all of these kinds of priorities.
Joe Rogan (1:23:32.480)
I mean, that requires having your shit together.
Lex Fridman (1:23:35.360)
It does.
Joe Rogan (1:23:36.360)
It's a different thing, but it's also, you got to find the right person.
Lex Fridman (1:23:39.080)
There's a lot of people who sell for, they settle for sexy.
Joe Rogan (1:23:42.400)
They settle for hot, settle for the wrong person.
Lex Fridman (1:23:46.160)
Like you can get hot and nice.
Joe Rogan (1:23:48.640)
They're out there.
Lex Fridman (1:23:49.640)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:23:50.640)
But don't get hot and mean, hot and mean is not fun.
Lex Fridman (1:23:53.400)
Then you get Amber Heard.
Joe Rogan (1:23:54.400)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:23:55.400)
You know?
Lex Fridman (1:23:56.400)
And then you get hot and dry.
Lex Fridman (1:23:57.400)
Yeah.
Joe Rogan (1:23:58.400)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:23:59.400)
Yeah.
Joe Rogan (1:24:00.400)
You can be deceived by perfect symmetry.
Lex Fridman (1:24:01.400)
So you don't think it's a good idea to record your partner?
Joe Rogan (1:24:04.680)
I think you should record all conversations.
Lex Fridman (1:24:07.160)
The CIA is doing it no matter what.
Joe Rogan (1:24:09.200)
I assume that every conversation I have is recorded because I'm pretty sure it is.
Lex Fridman (1:24:14.280)
Even when we had dinner with Alex Jones, he was recording.
Joe Rogan (1:24:16.480)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:24:17.480)
I still remember that.
Joe Rogan (1:24:18.480)
I didn't know that was recording.
Lex Fridman (1:24:21.400)
He might, you know what?
Joe Rogan (1:24:22.400)
It'd be funny if he is the CIA.
Lex Fridman (1:24:24.880)
He could be.
Joe Rogan (1:24:25.880)
Could be.
Lex Fridman (1:24:26.880)
That'd be the ultimate joke.
Lex Fridman (1:24:27.880)
So my advice about relationships is be somebody.
Lex Fridman (1:24:32.000)
And then also like find someone who you can grow with, right?
Joe Rogan (1:24:38.680)
You don't want to be with someone who doesn't share your values.
Lex Fridman (1:24:43.640)
You don't want to be with someone who makes excuses.
Joe Rogan (1:24:46.120)
You don't want to be with someone who's lazy or who's spiteful.
Lex Fridman (1:24:49.960)
You want to be with someone who's like genuinely kind.
Joe Rogan (1:24:53.540)
That's one of the things that I really love about my wife and she's very smart and she
Lex Fridman (1:24:56.720)
works hard.
Joe Rogan (1:24:58.720)
She's a dedicated, disciplined person, but she's also really nice.
Lex Fridman (1:25:02.740)
That's one of the things I like the most about her.
Joe Rogan (1:25:05.040)
She's so nice.
Lex Fridman (1:25:06.160)
She's always smiling.
Lex Fridman (1:25:09.240)
And that energy is great.
Lex Fridman (1:25:10.720)
Yeah.
Joe Rogan (1:25:11.720)
I mean, you've seen us together.
Lex Fridman (1:25:12.720)
Yeah.
Joe Rogan (1:25:13.720)
You've hung around with us.
Lex Fridman (1:25:14.720)
She's fun.
Joe Rogan (1:25:15.720)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:25:16.720)
She's a lot of fun.
Joe Rogan (1:25:17.720)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:25:18.720)
She makes you just feel great to be alive.
Joe Rogan (1:25:19.720)
It's good to have people like that around you.
Lex Fridman (1:25:20.720)
She's happy.
Joe Rogan (1:25:21.720)
She's a happy person.
Lex Fridman (1:25:22.720)
She's happy to be around.
Joe Rogan (1:25:23.900)
That's the kind of people that you could have in your life as friends and as coworkers and
Lex Fridman (1:25:28.820)
as lovers and wives and husbands.
Joe Rogan (1:25:30.780)
You can find those people.
Lex Fridman (1:25:32.280)
They're real.
Lex Fridman (1:25:33.280)
And when you find those people, your life is better.
Lex Fridman (1:25:36.100)
To have a good tribe is very important, to have a good tribe of people.
Lex Fridman (1:25:41.320)
And I think if there's anything that I'm very, very fortunate about, it's the people that
Lex Fridman (1:25:45.700)
I'm around.
Joe Rogan (1:25:46.960)
I have very good friends and one of which is you.
Joe Rogan (1:25:51.040)
It's so valuable to have quality people around you because it makes you want to do better
Joe Rogan (1:25:58.360)
because you admire the hard work that these people put in, like Cam Haines or Goggins
Joe Rogan (1:26:03.340)
or many of my friends and people that are generous and people that are curious and people
Joe Rogan (1:26:10.040)
that are honest.
Lex Fridman (1:26:11.880)
They inspire you to do the same and it's extremely valuable.
Joe Rogan (1:26:16.200)
It's one of the most valuable things is to surround yourself with positive, healthy,
Lex Fridman (1:26:23.240)
friendly, generous people.
Joe Rogan (1:26:25.880)
That's why I cut out Tim Dillon from my life.
Lex Fridman (1:26:27.840)
I broke up with him.
Joe Rogan (1:26:28.840)
I thought you guys were getting married.
Lex Fridman (1:26:29.840)
No, it's over.
Joe Rogan (1:26:31.320)
It's none of those things.
Joe Rogan (1:26:32.320)
The Texas nonstop, the nonstop conspiracy theories, the nonstop mocking of my Eastern
Joe Rogan (1:26:40.460)
European origins, it's just not healthy for me.
Joe Rogan (1:26:46.700)
Plus he's physically abusive and a towering figure, both emotional and physically.
Joe Rogan (1:26:51.320)
No, no, I love him.
Lex Fridman (1:26:53.440)
Okay.
Joe Rogan (1:26:54.440)
If he worked out, he would be a house.
Lex Fridman (1:26:55.440)
A brick house.
Lex Fridman (1:26:56.440)
He's got such a large frame, you know?
Lex Fridman (1:26:59.420)
So if I interview Putin, what should I ask him?
Lex Fridman (1:27:03.480)
How's the cancer?
Lex Fridman (1:27:04.480)
How's it doing, buddy?
Joe Rogan (1:27:07.880)
That's question number one in Russian.
Lex Fridman (1:27:09.880)
Do you think he has cancer?
Joe Rogan (1:27:12.200)
I don't think so.
Lex Fridman (1:27:13.680)
The narrative is terrifying, right?
Joe Rogan (1:27:16.120)
Dictator of the largest nuclear arsenal in the world who also has cancer and he just
Lex Fridman (1:27:21.020)
invaded a sovereign country.
Joe Rogan (1:27:22.920)
That's a terrifying narrative because that's what we're all afraid of.
Lex Fridman (1:27:25.240)
Someone who has nothing to lose who just decides to let loose a nuke.
Joe Rogan (1:27:29.840)
Well, I do think maybe it's projecting, but if I had cancer or if you think about leaders
Joe Rogan (1:27:35.880)
that have cancer, you're facing your own mortality, I would think he would be more focused on
Joe Rogan (1:27:41.160)
his legacy and dropping a nuclear bomb is not good for legacy.
Joe Rogan (1:27:46.660)
I do believe he wants to be remembered as a great leader, as a lot of leaders do, as
Joe Rogan (1:27:51.080)
a lot of even dictators do.
Lex Fridman (1:27:52.520)
And I think he wants to figure out a way to pull out a win so he can say that whatever
Joe Rogan (1:28:02.160)
this thing was, whatever this invasion was, was good for Russia, was good for the nation.
Lex Fridman (1:28:08.520)
He ultimately made it a greater nation than it was before.
Lex Fridman (1:28:11.680)
And perhaps you could justify an escalation of war to be that.
Lex Fridman (1:28:18.440)
And it's just the cancer thing concerns me so much because it's been so often part of
Joe Rogan (1:28:24.000)
this propaganda that's been told about Putin that he's sick.
Lex Fridman (1:28:27.200)
I don't know why.
Joe Rogan (1:28:30.200)
People kind of wonder that a lot about, especially dictators, but you had that even with Hillary
Lex Fridman (1:28:34.960)
Clinton and obviously with Biden, that narrative is stickier.
Lex Fridman (1:28:40.020)
So for some people it's stickier than that.
Lex Fridman (1:28:41.020)
Well, that narrative is transparent and obvious.
Lex Fridman (1:28:44.240)
But the degree of it is a question with Biden as it is with everyone.
Lex Fridman (1:28:49.520)
How healthy is this leader?
Joe Rogan (1:28:50.920)
That's a question people often ask.
Lex Fridman (1:28:52.480)
Sure, always.
Joe Rogan (1:28:53.480)
They were doing that about Trump too.
Joe Rogan (1:28:55.640)
The thing about Putin though is like his appearance is altered, where he looks very bloated.
Joe Rogan (1:29:02.800)
His body doesn't look much bigger, but his face looks like puffy and swollen.
Joe Rogan (1:29:07.320)
I had a friend who had sarcoidosis and they prescribed prednisone, which is a type of
Joe Rogan (1:29:15.640)
a steroid.
Lex Fridman (1:29:16.640)
And one of the things that would happen when he was on it is his face would get really
Joe Rogan (1:29:20.960)
big.
Joe Rogan (1:29:21.960)
He was like, he would blow up like a swell up and maintain a lot of water and inflammation.
Lex Fridman (1:29:30.200)
And that's what it looks like when I'm looking at Putin.
Lex Fridman (1:29:32.960)
So actually like if you're sitting with him, one question is about health.
Lex Fridman (1:29:37.080)
Has Biden been asked that kind of question?
Lex Fridman (1:29:41.440)
Like without mockery, without any of that?
Joe Rogan (1:29:42.920)
You would have to go on Fox News.
Joe Rogan (1:29:44.360)
Like the mainstream media treats him with kid gloves in a way that I've never seen.
Joe Rogan (1:29:49.960)
It's so obvious there's something horribly wrong with his cognitive function.
Lex Fridman (1:29:55.320)
Well, I had to push back.
Joe Rogan (1:29:57.560)
I don't know if it's horribly wrong.
Lex Fridman (1:29:59.400)
You don't think it's horribly wrong?
Joe Rogan (1:30:00.400)
I think it's no, I think there's uncertainty to which degree is wrong.
Lex Fridman (1:30:04.880)
I would love to there to be a serious like conversation about with him.
Joe Rogan (1:30:09.760)
In fact, I actually have to now look, cause of course Fox News will mock his like declining
Lex Fridman (1:30:17.440)
mental health and then I would love like sort of an objective discussion.
Lex Fridman (1:30:22.760)
Are you aware of this?
Lex Fridman (1:30:24.120)
Are you like, what are you putting in place?
Lex Fridman (1:30:27.200)
Are you yourself?
Joe Rogan (1:30:28.200)
Cause if I was a person with a declining mental abilities, like you have to start thinking
Joe Rogan (1:30:36.480)
about that kind of stuff.
Lex Fridman (1:30:37.480)
Like who is around you, who are the advisors?
Lex Fridman (1:30:40.520)
What if you start, stop being able to see the world clearly?
Lex Fridman (1:30:44.160)
I would be transparent about that kind of stuff.
Joe Rogan (1:30:46.200)
Well, you would be, but you're also would never be a politician because you're too fucking
Lex Fridman (1:30:50.720)
honest.
Joe Rogan (1:30:51.720)
Well, yeah, but actually from a conversation perspective, it would be nice if that kind
Lex Fridman (1:30:56.160)
of discussion was sad.
Joe Rogan (1:30:57.160)
It would be.
Lex Fridman (1:30:58.160)
But all jokes aside with Putin, I would ask questions about democracy versus what they
Joe Rogan (1:31:08.960)
have.
Lex Fridman (1:31:09.960)
So that without any disparaging descriptions of what is going on over in Russia, it's clearly
Joe Rogan (1:31:17.360)
not a democracy.
Lex Fridman (1:31:20.080)
It's they, I mean the way he has it set up, the elections are a joke.
Joe Rogan (1:31:26.800)
He's
Lex Fridman (1:31:27.800)
So he would push back.
Joe Rogan (1:31:28.800)
That's not clearly not a democracy.
Lex Fridman (1:31:30.040)
He is still very popular.
Lex Fridman (1:31:31.120)
So majority of people are huge supporters of Putin inside Russia.
Joe Rogan (1:31:35.080)
The he would, the people that push back against that would say that that's because any serious
Joe Rogan (1:31:41.040)
opposition is pushed out of the country.
Lex Fridman (1:31:43.120)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:31:44.120)
So it gets competition and murdered.
Lex Fridman (1:31:45.760)
Yeah.
Joe Rogan (1:31:46.760)
So, but yes, that's a really, really good question.
Lex Fridman (1:31:49.080)
The value of dictatorships.
Joe Rogan (1:31:51.000)
One of the things about the United States that's fascinating to me is that every four
Lex Fridman (1:31:56.640)
years, unless it's a, it's four to eight years, right?
Joe Rogan (1:32:00.920)
One does two terms, but every four years there's an opportunity for someone to be new and completely
Lex Fridman (1:32:06.960)
inexperienced at the most difficult job in the world, which is ridiculous.
Lex Fridman (1:32:12.320)
So the interesting thing is it actually makes sense after eight years, you've gained the
Lex Fridman (1:32:18.600)
wisdom.
Joe Rogan (1:32:19.600)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:32:20.600)
You would actually be a pretty good leader to keep going.
Joe Rogan (1:32:21.760)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:32:22.760)
But there is some problem where you, the power gets started getting to your head.
Joe Rogan (1:32:26.160)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:32:27.160)
So from Putin's perspective, I think he genuinely wants the best for Russia.
Joe Rogan (1:32:32.040)
I don't think he's lost his mind in terms of like, it's all about greed and so on.
Lex Fridman (1:32:37.520)
Same as Stalin.
Joe Rogan (1:32:38.520)
I think Stalin until the end of his days wanted the best for the Soviet Union.
Lex Fridman (1:32:43.400)
So it's not like you become, Hitler I think lost his mind during the war.
Joe Rogan (1:32:47.280)
Like where it was like he wasn't seen clearly at all.
Lex Fridman (1:32:50.200)
What Putin believes is that he is actually the best person to bring out the best for
Joe Rogan (1:32:56.320)
his country.
Joe Rogan (1:32:57.320)
Now, the problem is maybe refreshing the leader is in fact in the long term, the best thing
Joe Rogan (1:33:04.320)
versus every leader believes they know what's best for the country, the point is to keep
Lex Fridman (1:33:08.240)
refreshing it.
Joe Rogan (1:33:09.240)
Well.
Lex Fridman (1:33:10.240)
And that's the case for democracy.
Joe Rogan (1:33:12.080)
That's the case for the system we have that creates a natural, maybe emergent balance
Lex Fridman (1:33:18.800)
of power.
Joe Rogan (1:33:20.000)
I think it makes it evident that there is no clear cut real right way to do it.
Lex Fridman (1:33:24.480)
And that if you had the perfect person in having them for 12, 20 years would be amazing.
Joe Rogan (1:33:30.760)
If you had a perfect benevolent leader who clearly only cared about the people was doing
Joe Rogan (1:33:36.560)
their best and striving hard and got great satisfaction knowing that he is a dedicated
Joe Rogan (1:33:43.040)
civil servant that only wants to lead the country in a way that's going to benefit the
Lex Fridman (1:33:48.560)
most people in the most profound way.
Lex Fridman (1:33:52.640)
But we have a dirty political system.
Lex Fridman (1:33:56.480)
It's completely corrupted by money, completely corrupted by influence.
Joe Rogan (1:34:01.080)
The fact that the lobbyists, I mean, there's an area outside of Washington DC, it's one
Lex Fridman (1:34:08.080)
of the richest areas in the country and it's where the lobbyists live.
Joe Rogan (1:34:11.520)
There's so much money involved in being a lobbyist, there's so much money involved in
Joe Rogan (1:34:16.700)
special interest groups and how much of an impact they have on who gets elected and what
Joe Rogan (1:34:23.940)
decisions get made once that person gets elected.
Lex Fridman (1:34:26.160)
We know this, right?
Joe Rogan (1:34:27.400)
We know it's not for the people by the people, it's just not what it is.
Joe Rogan (1:34:30.720)
I mean, this country is an experiment in self government and if we could do it all over
Joe Rogan (1:34:36.080)
again, I would say the most important thing is to have laws in place to keep money out
Joe Rogan (1:34:41.320)
of politics and to make it a heinous crime for someone to influence laws and policy based
Joe Rogan (1:34:53.200)
entirely on the amount of profit it could generate for a party or for a company that
Lex Fridman (1:35:02.040)
is investing in a candidate.
Joe Rogan (1:35:04.740)
That's fucking incredibly dangerous and it's corrupt and that corruption has been accepted.
Lex Fridman (1:35:09.500)
We've just accepted that this corruption exists, you know?
Joe Rogan (1:35:14.320)
Last question.
Lex Fridman (1:35:15.320)
If Putin asks to see this watch, what do I tell him?
Lex Fridman (1:35:19.560)
Would you give it?
Lex Fridman (1:35:20.560)
Should I let him see it?
Joe Rogan (1:35:21.880)
Because we know what happens with the Super Bowl ring.
Lex Fridman (1:35:23.960)
I think a Super Bowl ring is unique.
Lex Fridman (1:35:26.840)
He could buy a watch like that pretty easy, you know?
Lex Fridman (1:35:30.400)
But this particular, isn't that a power move?
Joe Rogan (1:35:32.480)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:35:33.480)
So this is the watch you gave me as a story.
Joe Rogan (1:35:36.800)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (1:35:37.800)
I would probably share it with him, the story.
Lex Fridman (1:35:41.060)
And then maybe you go, can I see this watch?
Lex Fridman (1:35:43.120)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:35:44.120)
And then he puts it on and says thank you.
Lex Fridman (1:35:45.120)
Do you say no?
Lex Fridman (1:35:46.120)
Do you say no?
Lex Fridman (1:35:47.280)
You go like this.
Joe Rogan (1:35:48.280)
Yeah, there it is, bro.
Lex Fridman (1:35:49.280)
Bro.
Joe Rogan (1:35:50.280)
You know, take it off.
Lex Fridman (1:35:51.280)
I've got so many words I'm going to have to find translations, buddy, bro.
Joe Rogan (1:35:55.760)
I guess bro is brother.
Lex Fridman (1:35:56.760)
I mean, if he takes your watch, I'll buy you another one if Putin steals it.
Joe Rogan (1:36:00.720)
Keep him going.
Lex Fridman (1:36:01.720)
I'll just give you the same exact watch.
Joe Rogan (1:36:04.800)
Well, first of all, thank you for this.
Lex Fridman (1:36:06.680)
My pleasure, bro.
Joe Rogan (1:36:07.680)
I really wanted to talk to you because in a couple of days I'm leaving to Ukraine and
Joe Rogan (1:36:13.760)
Russia and I hope I'll be back in one piece and drink whiskey with you once again.
Joe Rogan (1:36:21.120)
Yeah, I hope so too.
Lex Fridman (1:36:22.480)
I'm nervous about you going over there.
Joe Rogan (1:36:24.560)
You know, I know journalists have been killed now.
Lex Fridman (1:36:28.520)
But they don't know Jiu Jitsu.
Joe Rogan (1:36:31.520)
No, I think you'll be okay and I think there's certain things you do in life that just kind
Lex Fridman (1:36:35.960)
of your heart pulls towards that so much.
Lex Fridman (1:36:38.640)
What's your objective over there?
Lex Fridman (1:36:40.680)
I'm not somebody who thinks about objectives clearly.
Joe Rogan (1:36:43.920)
It's just something about me says I need to go there.
Lex Fridman (1:36:47.620)
But to put in loose words is to try to understand what that world is now.
Lex Fridman (1:36:56.560)
So I remember what it was years ago when I was there.
Joe Rogan (1:37:00.600)
I know my family, I know the generations of family that was there on that land in Ukraine
Lex Fridman (1:37:06.000)
and in Russia, and the soul of the people, the love that's there, the beauty of the culture.
Lex Fridman (1:37:13.840)
And I want to see what it is today and what this war has created.
Joe Rogan (1:37:18.200)
Both the anger and the love and the people and just hear them out and just talk to them.
Lex Fridman (1:37:22.640)
No recordings, none of that.
Joe Rogan (1:37:24.280)
Maybe a little here and there, but mostly just for me.
Lex Fridman (1:37:27.120)
And to see, I don't know, sometimes it's just something pulls you to a place.
Lex Fridman (1:37:34.080)
And I also, because I'm able to speak Russian and some Ukrainian, I do want to try to have
Lex Fridman (1:37:41.000)
these, a couple of the political leaders involved, talk to them.
Lex Fridman (1:37:45.560)
And I have all the right connections, everybody has said yes.
Joe Rogan (1:37:49.240)
Of course you don't know the likelihood it finally happens, but I want to at least have
Joe Rogan (1:37:53.240)
that possibility there.
Lex Fridman (1:37:54.880)
Sometimes you have to go to a place to really understand it.
Joe Rogan (1:37:57.320)
You can't just read about it.
Lex Fridman (1:37:58.320)
You can't just talk to the people that are living there.
Joe Rogan (1:38:00.560)
You have to be there.
Lex Fridman (1:38:02.440)
And I've never been in a war zone.
Joe Rogan (1:38:05.000)
I've never been in a land that's been damaged and wiped by the weapons of war.
Lex Fridman (1:38:15.520)
And I just want to feel that because so much of that land is, I remember when everything
Joe Rogan (1:38:22.360)
was flourishing.
Joe Rogan (1:38:23.360)
Yes, corruption, all those kinds of things, but people were there and the culture was
Joe Rogan (1:38:28.920)
flourishing and people were happy.
Lex Fridman (1:38:30.480)
There was lots of struggle, but they were happy.
Lex Fridman (1:38:32.520)
And now people are extremely angry.
Lex Fridman (1:38:34.920)
There's hate in the air on all sides.
Joe Rogan (1:38:36.680)
I want to see that.
Lex Fridman (1:38:38.600)
I want to understand.
Joe Rogan (1:38:39.760)
Sometimes it just pulls you and you have to go.
Lex Fridman (1:38:42.080)
So it doesn't make any sense perhaps, but you just got to do it.
Lex Fridman (1:38:46.040)
What's the timeline of when I'm going?
Lex Fridman (1:38:48.720)
How long?
Joe Rogan (1:38:49.720)
No, one way.
Lex Fridman (1:38:50.720)
I don't have a plan.
Lex Fridman (1:38:51.720)
Really?
Lex Fridman (1:38:52.720)
Wow.
Joe Rogan (1:38:53.720)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:38:54.720)
So I'm hoping back in a month, but also just to clarify, I'm not somebody who seeks risk.
Lex Fridman (1:39:06.560)
And like, you're somebody who seems to be terrified of bears and sharks, so you don't
Lex Fridman (1:39:11.800)
like, so why go swim out?
Lex Fridman (1:39:14.840)
Why go surfing?
Lex Fridman (1:39:15.840)
Why go swim out in the ocean?
Joe Rogan (1:39:16.840)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:39:17.840)
So I'm somebody that's the same probably with sharks too.
Joe Rogan (1:39:20.120)
I'm not taking unnecessary risk, but certain things that just mean a lot to you, you take
Lex Fridman (1:39:25.200)
the risk.
Lex Fridman (1:39:26.200)
And so a little bit of risk willing to take to discover something about myself, honestly,
Lex Fridman (1:39:33.880)
it's probably what it all boils down to, trying to understand myself.
Joe Rogan (1:39:37.960)
Because so much of me is from that place.
Joe Rogan (1:39:40.880)
Well, this is the beautiful thing about America is it's like stitches together all these different
Joe Rogan (1:39:47.160)
cultures.
Lex Fridman (1:39:48.160)
Everybody came from somewhere else.
Joe Rogan (1:39:49.160)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:39:50.160)
And you try to understand, in order for me to be a good American, I need to understand
Joe Rogan (1:39:55.680)
who I was, where I came from.
Lex Fridman (1:39:59.120)
And that's nothing reveals the spirit of a people better than war.
Joe Rogan (1:40:07.200)
It's like there's something about this conflict that's really cuts all the bullshit.
Lex Fridman (1:40:13.800)
This is who we are.
Joe Rogan (1:40:15.080)
This is who we are as a people.
Lex Fridman (1:40:16.840)
So I want to see it.
Joe Rogan (1:40:18.520)
I want to understand.
Lex Fridman (1:40:19.520)
And like I said, when I come back, drink some whiskey with you.
Joe Rogan (1:40:23.560)
All right.
Lex Fridman (1:40:24.560)
Well, I hope that happens.
Joe Rogan (1:40:25.560)
I really do.
Lex Fridman (1:40:27.040)
And I hope you're safe over there.
Lex Fridman (1:40:28.480)
And I hope you come back with whatever insight you're trying to achieve.
Lex Fridman (1:40:34.280)
Thank you for doing this conversation.
Joe Rogan (1:40:35.280)
My pleasure, brother.
Joe Rogan (1:40:36.280)
Thank you for everything you've done for me, for the support, for the love, and everybody
Joe Rogan (1:40:40.480)
around you.
Joe Rogan (1:40:41.480)
Thank you for everything you're doing for everybody around you, for giving back, but
Joe Rogan (1:40:46.200)
for just giving and being kind to everybody.
Lex Fridman (1:40:48.560)
I love you, brother.
Joe Rogan (1:40:49.560)
I love you too.
Lex Fridman (1:40:50.560)
Thank you.
Joe Rogan (1:40:51.560)
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Joe Rogan.
Lex Fridman (1:40:54.000)
To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.
Lex Fridman (1:40:57.840)
And now let me leave you with one of Joe's and one of my favorite quotes from Miyamoto
Lex Fridman (1:41:02.680)
Musashi.
Joe Rogan (1:41:03.680)
Once you know the way broadly, you will see it in everything.
Lex Fridman (1:41:09.440)
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
Lex Fridman (20:00.000)
So can I have a good conversation? And I think you had like people like Kanye on, for example, and you had a great conversation with him.
Joe Rogan (20:07.800)
I think you I think he is an artist, but Kanye doing well or not doing well doesn't change the course of our country.
Lex Fridman (20:18.160)
Yeah, but, you know, do you really bear the responsibility of the course of our country based on a conversation?
Joe Rogan (20:25.800)
I think you can revitalize and rehabilitate someone's image in a way that is pretty shocking.
Joe Rogan (20:36.680)
Look at the way people look at Alex Jones now, because Alex Jones has been on my podcast a few times.
Lex Fridman (20:41.760)
Yeah. How do they which direction?
Joe Rogan (20:43.760)
The people that have watched those podcasts think he's hilarious.
Lex Fridman (20:47.400)
And they think that he definitely fucked up with that whole Sandy Hook thing.
Lex Fridman (20:53.000)
But he's right more than he's wrong. And he's not an evil guy.
Joe Rogan (20:59.160)
He's just a guy who's had some psychotic breaks in his life. He's had some genuine mental health issues that he's addressed.
Joe Rogan (21:06.200)
He's had some serious bouts of alcoholism, some serious bouts of substance abuse, and they've contributed to some very poor thinking.
Lex Fridman (21:15.400)
But if you know the guy, if you get to know him like I have, I've known him for more than 20 years.
Lex Fridman (21:21.080)
And if you know him on podcasts, you realize like he is genuinely trying to unearth some things that are genuinely disturbing for most people.
Joe Rogan (21:32.320)
Like this is a guy that was telling me about Epstein's Island fucking decade ago.
Lex Fridman (21:39.720)
At least he was telling me about I was like, what you're telling me?
Joe Rogan (21:43.520)
There's a place where they bring elites to compromise them with underage girls and they film them.
Joe Rogan (21:50.760)
Really? Like what? Cut the fuck out here.
Lex Fridman (21:53.320)
Like, no, President Clinton's been there. Everyone's been there.
Joe Rogan (21:55.840)
Like, but it sounds like nonsense.
Lex Fridman (21:58.000)
And not only is it true, but people keep getting fucking murdered for it. Did you see that latest Clinton adviser that got murdered about it?
Joe Rogan (22:05.560)
Yep. Yeah.
Joe Rogan (22:06.720)
Hung with an extension cord, shot himself in the chest 30 miles from his house, and they're calling it a suicide.
Lex Fridman (22:13.360)
And now even Elon Musk is asking, where's the clientele list?
Lex Fridman (22:17.040)
Yeah, we should we should probably see who's been to that island.
Joe Rogan (22:20.760)
Yeah, we should probably see who's been to that island.
Lex Fridman (22:23.240)
And there's probably more of those kind of things out there that haven't been exposed.
Joe Rogan (22:29.080)
Yeah, but sort of to push back in you, you had those conversations with Alex Jones.
Lex Fridman (22:35.840)
Wouldn't you be able to have the same kind of conversation with Donald Trump?
Joe Rogan (22:39.680)
That's the problem.
Lex Fridman (22:40.200)
Reveal. No, it's not the problem.
Joe Rogan (22:42.120)
You revealed that Alex Jones is a human being.
Lex Fridman (22:44.800)
Yeah, he's fucked up. He has demons in his head.
Joe Rogan (22:47.480)
He's obviously chaotic all over the place, but there's some wisdom to the perspective he takes on the world.
Joe Rogan (22:54.520)
Even though he is often full of shit, he is able to predict certain things that very few people are willing to bring up.
Lex Fridman (23:02.520)
So isn't Trump the same way?
Lex Fridman (23:04.120)
Fucked up person, egomaniac, whatever personality things you can talk about.
Lex Fridman (23:10.000)
Isn't it worthwhile to lay it out?
Lex Fridman (23:12.440)
Like, who's going to, if you listen to interviews of Trump, who has the balls to call him out on this bullshit?
Joe Rogan (23:19.280)
Chris Wallace did.
Joe Rogan (23:21.200)
No, calling out somebody on their bullshit is easy when you're just being adversarial.
Lex Fridman (23:25.000)
But as a person who is genuinely and pathetically trying to understand, I think you're really good at that.
Lex Fridman (23:31.840)
Like, you pull them in.
Joe Rogan (23:32.960)
I don't know if he would genuinely be there.
Lex Fridman (23:36.400)
You know what I'm saying?
Joe Rogan (23:37.360)
Like, I think he would be putting on a performance.
Lex Fridman (23:39.800)
You don't think he can break through that in like 30 minutes?
Joe Rogan (23:42.800)
I'd need more time than that.
Lex Fridman (23:44.800)
And he doesn't do any drugs.
Joe Rogan (23:46.480)
That's the thing about Alex.
Joe Rogan (23:47.760)
You can get Alex high, get him drunk, and he'll start talking about interdimensional child molesters.
Joe Rogan (23:53.000)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (23:53.480)
You know, and then you get the real Alex.
Joe Rogan (23:56.160)
Or maybe you have somebody else on as well to introduce chaos, like Alex.
Lex Fridman (24:01.440)
No, no, no, no.
Joe Rogan (24:02.520)
You have to be one of them.
Lex Fridman (24:03.240)
I would have to be just me and him.
Joe Rogan (24:05.120)
I would have to, that would be a focused thing.
Lex Fridman (24:07.080)
I would have to, like, really take time with Trump.
Lex Fridman (24:11.240)
But also, I'm not well versed enough politically to know all of the corruption that's been alleged
Lex Fridman (24:20.360)
and to understand what the whole Russiagate stuff, what's real.
Joe Rogan (24:25.920)
Like, how much of it, it's clear that there is more than one organization that's involved
Lex Fridman (24:32.920)
in communicating with Russia before the 2016 election.
Lex Fridman (24:36.560)
So it's pretty clear that the Clinton administration was involved.
Joe Rogan (24:40.800)
It's pretty clear that the Trump administration had some communication with some people in Russia.
Joe Rogan (24:45.920)
It's pretty clear that Hunter Biden had some very suspicious dealings in Ukraine.
Lex Fridman (24:51.320)
And there's a lot going on there, man.
Lex Fridman (24:53.840)
And it's hard for anybody to parse.
Joe Rogan (24:57.640)
It's really hard for anybody, and especially to have an objective assessment of exactly what's going on.
Lex Fridman (25:05.840)
And then to be able to do that and broadcast it publicly.
Lex Fridman (25:09.160)
That's quite a project.
Lex Fridman (25:10.680)
And I think if you really want to do that correctly, it's something that I would have to research for a long time.
Lex Fridman (25:16.600)
And to really, really, and I don't have that kind of time.
Joe Rogan (25:19.640)
Not for, maybe for certain people that you're really curious about.
Lex Fridman (25:24.240)
Like, you have that kind of time for Bob Lazar.
Joe Rogan (25:26.200)
Yes, yes.
Lex Fridman (25:28.200)
But maybe not for Donald Trump.
Joe Rogan (25:29.640)
No, that's different.
Joe Rogan (25:30.840)
Because Bob Lazar, what he's talking about, I wanted to know, with the Bob Lazar thing,
Joe Rogan (25:38.200)
I wanted to know, first of all, I want to be around him and see if I could smell bullshit.
Lex Fridman (25:42.160)
Did you?
Joe Rogan (25:42.720)
No.
Lex Fridman (25:43.720)
OK.
Joe Rogan (25:44.200)
No, I didn't, man.
Lex Fridman (25:45.040)
That was what's weird about it.
Joe Rogan (25:46.560)
Not only did I not smell bullshit, I went over all of his interviews.
Lex Fridman (25:51.040)
He hasn't done a lot, but he's done enough.
Lex Fridman (25:54.560)
And he's done them over the course of 30 plus years.
Lex Fridman (25:57.880)
And it's alarming how consistent his story is, which is really weird when you think about,
Joe Rogan (26:04.440)
you're talking about back engineering alien crafts and working on a top secret government
Joe Rogan (26:11.080)
test site that's carved into the side of a mountain to camouflage it from satellites.
Joe Rogan (26:18.000)
It's such a wacky story.
Lex Fridman (26:20.600)
But the guy really did work at Los Alamos Labs.
Joe Rogan (26:23.760)
He really is a propulsions expert.
Lex Fridman (26:25.800)
He really is a scientist.
Lex Fridman (26:29.280)
Did he really work on back engineering UFOs?
Lex Fridman (26:31.760)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (26:32.440)
But the way he described their motion is exactly like what's been observed by some of these pilots
Lex Fridman (26:39.400)
that have these videos that they've captured.
Lex Fridman (26:41.360)
And I just love that, like, NASA, I've been hearing from a bunch of folks who are there
Lex Fridman (26:45.400)
legitimately funding research.
Lex Fridman (26:48.040)
And there's people really taking this seriously of UFO sightings, investigating them.
Lex Fridman (26:54.840)
Yeah.
Joe Rogan (26:55.560)
Like, adding more and more sensors to collect data from just observing at higher and higher definitions.
Lex Fridman (27:01.360)
It's cool to finally see that.
Lex Fridman (27:02.720)
And he was one of the early people, whether he's full of shit or not, that kind of forced
Lex Fridman (27:07.280)
people to start taking these topics seriously.
Joe Rogan (27:11.640)
Or at least forced people to have conversations about them and maybe attempt to debunk them
Joe Rogan (27:17.840)
because it seems so preposterous, but then get sucked down the rabbit hole and start going,
Joe Rogan (27:22.640)
hmm, maybe.
Lex Fridman (27:23.880)
We'll fucking.
Lex Fridman (27:24.840)
The thing is, like the Fermi paradox, like, where are they, right?
Lex Fridman (27:29.000)
And when you take into account just the sheer raw numbers, the vast majority of people objectively
Joe Rogan (27:36.200)
assume that there is life out there, the vast majority.
Joe Rogan (27:40.920)
Well, if you really take into account what we understand about the universe itself, what we
Joe Rogan (27:45.880)
understand about the concept of infinity, and the way Neil deGrasse Tyson has explained it to me,
Lex Fridman (27:50.840)
is that not only are there life forms out there, but there's you.
Joe Rogan (27:57.720)
You are out there.
Joe Rogan (27:58.520)
Infinity is so large that Lex Friedman exists, and doesn't just exist, but exists an infinite
Joe Rogan (28:05.000)
number of times, like the amount of interactions at cells and molecules.
Joe Rogan (28:11.160)
The same exact interactions that have happened here on Earth have happened in the exact same
Joe Rogan (28:17.720)
order an infinite number of times in the cosmos.
Lex Fridman (28:21.960)
Well, first of all, it's not certain that that's true.
Joe Rogan (28:25.000)
It's possible.
Lex Fridman (28:25.560)
It's possible.
Joe Rogan (28:26.520)
Like Sean Carroll, you know, especially with quantum mechanics, based on a certain interpretation
Lex Fridman (28:33.400)
of quantum mechanics, that's very possible.
Lex Fridman (28:35.800)
But the question is, can you access those universes?
Lex Fridman (28:40.280)
Right.
Lex Fridman (28:40.600)
How far away are they?
Joe Rogan (28:41.720)
The more sort of specific, practical question is, this local pocket of the universe,
Lex Fridman (28:47.400)
our galaxy, or our neighboring galaxies, are there aliens there?
Lex Fridman (28:51.640)
What do they look like?
Joe Rogan (28:53.080)
Are they, so you can have this panspermia idea, where a much larger, like daddy civilization,
Lex Fridman (29:03.160)
like rolled by and just planted a few aliens at a similar time.
Joe Rogan (29:08.200)
Like Prometheus.
Lex Fridman (29:09.240)
Yes, a different, you know, throughout the galaxy.
Lex Fridman (29:12.680)
And those are the ones we might be interacting with.
Joe Rogan (29:14.840)
They're all kind of dumb as we are relatively, you know, maybe a few million years apart.
Lex Fridman (29:21.560)
And then those are the ones we're interacting with.
Lex Fridman (29:23.480)
And then we have a chance to actually connect with them and communicate with them.
Joe Rogan (29:26.920)
Or it could be like much more wide open.
Lex Fridman (29:29.960)
And you have these gigantic alien civilizations that are expanding very, very quickly.
Lex Fridman (29:35.080)
And the interesting thing is when you look up at the sky and you see the stars, that's
Lex Fridman (29:39.400)
light from those stars.
Joe Rogan (29:42.120)
We might not be seeing the alien civilizations until they're already here, meaning like you
Joe Rogan (29:48.120)
start expanding, once you get really good at expanding, you're going to be expanding
Joe Rogan (29:52.200)
very close to the speed of light.
Lex Fridman (29:53.960)
So right now we don't see much in the sky, but there could be one day we wake up and
Joe Rogan (29:58.760)
it's just like everywhere and they're here.
Lex Fridman (30:01.960)
Right.
Joe Rogan (30:02.440)
Because the amount of time the light takes to reach us.
Joe Rogan (30:04.680)
Yeah, and then the thing that I've been really fascinated by is these, you know,
Joe Rogan (30:11.720)
these alternative forms of transportation that they're discussing, like the ability
Joe Rogan (30:18.040)
to harness wormholes and the ability to do things that a type three civilization is capable
Joe Rogan (30:26.280)
of.
Lex Fridman (30:26.440)
I had Michio Kaku on my podcast recently.
Joe Rogan (30:29.000)
Fantastic.
Lex Fridman (30:29.720)
Love that guy.
Joe Rogan (30:30.760)
He's so good at taking extremely complex concepts and boiling them down for digestion.
Joe Rogan (30:40.040)
And, you know, and saying them in a way that other people can appreciate and not being
Joe Rogan (30:44.680)
hesitant about saying wild, crazy shit that's out there, but grounded in what's actually
Lex Fridman (30:50.280)
possible.
Joe Rogan (30:51.000)
Yeah, he's all in on this UFO phenomenon.
Joe Rogan (30:53.800)
Now he's like, now the burden of proof is to people for people to come up with some
Joe Rogan (30:58.440)
sort of a conventional explanation for these things.
Joe Rogan (31:01.960)
He goes, because these things are defying all the concepts of physics that we currently
Joe Rogan (31:07.480)
know in terms of what our capabilities are and propulsion systems and so many other things
Joe Rogan (31:13.160)
that, you know, what we know about what current science is capable of reproducing.
Joe Rogan (31:18.520)
As far as what we know, the problem is like these military projects that are top secret,
Lex Fridman (31:27.000)
like how much money do they have?
Joe Rogan (31:28.440)
They have a lot of money.
Lex Fridman (31:29.800)
Like, but is it possible?
Lex Fridman (31:32.760)
And maybe you could speak to this.
Joe Rogan (31:34.360)
Is it possible that there could be some propulsion systems that have been developed and implemented
Joe Rogan (31:41.800)
that are far beyond just the simple burning of rocket fuel, pushing the fire out the back,
Lex Fridman (31:47.960)
which forces the rocket at extreme speeds forward.
Joe Rogan (31:51.480)
That's something that does harness gravity, something that can distort space and time
Lex Fridman (31:58.120)
and can make travel from one point to another like preposterously fast.
Joe Rogan (32:05.320)
Well, not only is it possible, I think it's likely that that kind of stuff would be kept
Lex Fridman (32:12.280)
a secret.
Joe Rogan (32:12.920)
Yeah.
Joe Rogan (32:13.240)
It's just everything you see about these, about the way either if it's contractors
Joe Rogan (32:19.800)
like Lockheed Martin or if it's DOD, the actual departments of defense, they operate
Lex Fridman (32:25.320)
in complete secrecy.
Joe Rogan (32:26.600)
Just even looking at the history of the stealth fighter, just even stealth technology was
Joe Rogan (32:32.280)
kept a secret for a very, very long time and not until you're ready to use it and need
Joe Rogan (32:39.720)
to use it, does it become public and not officially public.
Lex Fridman (32:43.400)
It just is being detected out in the wild.
Lex Fridman (32:46.360)
So there's going to be a process where you're secretly testing it and that might creep up,
Lex Fridman (32:51.400)
which is maybe what we're seeing.
Lex Fridman (32:53.240)
And then it's waiting for the next big war, the next big reason to use the thing.
Lex Fridman (32:59.560)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (33:00.280)
And so, yeah, there's definitely technologies in that.
Lex Fridman (33:03.080)
There might not be propulsion technologies.
Joe Rogan (33:05.240)
There could be AI surveillance technologies.
Lex Fridman (33:07.720)
There could be different kinds of stealth drones.
Joe Rogan (33:14.360)
It could be also in cyberspace like cyber war weapons, all that kind of stuff.
Lex Fridman (33:20.040)
They're obviously going to be kept secret.
Joe Rogan (33:21.640)
Yeah, I'm very skeptical lately.
Lex Fridman (33:25.000)
And the reason why I'm skeptical is the government keeps talking about it.
Joe Rogan (33:28.840)
The Pentagon keeps talking about it.
Lex Fridman (33:30.680)
NASA keeps talking about it.
Lex Fridman (33:32.360)
In which direction are you skeptical?
Lex Fridman (33:33.960)
I'm skeptical that they're aliens.
Joe Rogan (33:36.280)
I think most likely it's a smoke screen.
Lex Fridman (33:38.680)
And most likely these are some sort of like incredibly advanced drones that they've developed
Joe Rogan (33:43.400)
that they want to pretend don't exist.
Lex Fridman (33:47.160)
That seems the more likely scenario.
Lex Fridman (33:49.160)
Because otherwise, my take is like, what's the benefit of them discussing these things?
Lex Fridman (33:54.760)
What's the benefit of them discussing these things openly?
Joe Rogan (33:57.560)
These are, the way they described it, off world crafts, not made from this earth.
Lex Fridman (34:06.440)
Why?
Lex Fridman (34:07.080)
Why would they tell us that?
Joe Rogan (34:09.160)
Unless there's an imminent danger of us being invaded and they want to prepare people so
Joe Rogan (34:16.680)
they don't freak out as much.
Lex Fridman (34:17.960)
You know, like maybe freak them out a little bit.
Joe Rogan (34:20.200)
Say that publicly.
Joe Rogan (34:21.720)
The New York Times article, the Pentagon discussing it, all these different things.
Joe Rogan (34:26.200)
Test the waters.
Lex Fridman (34:27.400)
Yeah, well, let people know that this is a thing or my take is like that.
Joe Rogan (34:35.080)
I don't think they do that.
Lex Fridman (34:36.200)
I don't think they tell us.
Joe Rogan (34:37.960)
I think the government has a lot of contempt for the citizens.
Lex Fridman (34:43.480)
I really do.
Joe Rogan (34:44.200)
I think they have contempt for our intelligence.
Lex Fridman (34:46.520)
They have contempt for our need to know things.
Lex Fridman (34:49.480)
And I also think they think that they are running us.
Lex Fridman (34:53.000)
It's not we're all in this together.
Lex Fridman (34:54.920)
And the government works for the people.
Lex Fridman (34:56.840)
And the government is of the people.
Joe Rogan (34:58.600)
I don't think they think that way.
Joe Rogan (34:59.880)
Yeah, the basic idea is you can't trust the populace, the government itself, because we're
Joe Rogan (35:05.080)
a bunch of idiots.
Lex Fridman (35:06.920)
I think that's accurate.
Joe Rogan (35:08.760)
Well, they're not wrong, but they're also idiots, power hungry idiots.
Joe Rogan (35:13.320)
Yeah, I don't think everyone's an idiot, but I think there are enough idiots that it becomes
Joe Rogan (35:18.280)
a real problem if you're completely honest about everything you do.
Lex Fridman (35:21.560)
And you don't want to let everybody weigh in about things that are incredibly complex
Lex Fridman (35:28.040)
and that most people are ignorant of.
Lex Fridman (35:30.200)
And on top of that, there's this machine of intelligence that I've recently been reading
Joe Rogan (35:35.080)
a lot about the KGB, about the FSB.
Lex Fridman (35:37.320)
So several things sparked my curiosity.
Lex Fridman (35:40.760)
So one, I'm traveling to Ukraine and to Moscow.
Lex Fridman (35:43.720)
And because of that, I started to sort of ask practical questions of myself, just travel
Lex Fridman (35:49.000)
and all those kinds of things.
Lex Fridman (35:50.200)
So I started reading a lot about the KGB.
Joe Rogan (35:52.280)
Jack Barsky has a book on this.
Lex Fridman (35:53.960)
I talked to him.
Lex Fridman (35:56.280)
And you start to realize, you probably looked into some of this, but you start to realize
Lex Fridman (36:01.000)
the scale of surveillance, manipulation.
Joe Rogan (36:05.240)
Now, a lot of them also talk about the incompetence of those organizations, the usual
Lex Fridman (36:10.200)
bureaucracy creeps in.
Lex Fridman (36:11.720)
But the point is, it seems like there's no line they're not willing to cross for the
Joe Rogan (36:18.920)
purpose of gathering intelligence, for the purpose of controlling people in order to
Joe Rogan (36:24.200)
gather intelligence.
Lex Fridman (36:25.400)
Now, this is MI6, FSB.
Joe Rogan (36:30.920)
There's not much information about the FSB or the GRU, but the KGB.
Lex Fridman (36:34.840)
So we're always like 20 years behind or more on the actual information.
Lex Fridman (36:39.800)
And so I started to wonder.
Lex Fridman (36:43.160)
So I have not officially been contacted by any intelligence agency, but I started to
Joe Rogan (36:48.920)
wonder, well, is there somebody I know that's doing that, undercover CIA or undercover
Lex Fridman (36:58.040)
FSB, undercover anything?
Joe Rogan (37:00.200)
You probably do.
Lex Fridman (37:01.560)
Have you asked yourself this question?
Joe Rogan (37:03.320)
Yeah, for sure.
Lex Fridman (37:04.520)
Yeah, people that have been on my podcast.
Joe Rogan (37:06.680)
Yeah, for sure.
Lex Fridman (37:07.480)
Do you think there was actually a guess that may have been?
Joe Rogan (37:10.360)
100%.
Lex Fridman (37:11.240)
Oh, man.
Joe Rogan (37:11.800)
I would imagine.
Lex Fridman (37:12.840)
Would you know?
Joe Rogan (37:14.600)
I have suspicions.
Lex Fridman (37:15.720)
Do you care?
Lex Fridman (37:16.680)
Is this?
Lex Fridman (37:18.520)
I mean, it depends on what they're attempting to do, right?
Joe Rogan (37:23.640)
Like if I felt like there was some deception involved and they were trying to use the podcast
Joe Rogan (37:28.920)
to manipulate a narrative in a deceptive way to trick people into things, yeah, I would
Joe Rogan (37:35.480)
care.
Lex Fridman (37:36.040)
But this is exactly what, those are the kind of things they do.
Joe Rogan (37:38.760)
They do plant narratives.
Lex Fridman (37:40.360)
Yeah.
Joe Rogan (37:41.800)
I mean, I would imagine if you have the number one podcast in the world that people would
Lex Fridman (37:47.400)
want to infiltrate that.
Joe Rogan (37:49.560)
Yeah, there's probably meetings in all major intelligence agencies about, okay, what are
Lex Fridman (37:54.280)
the large platforms?
Lex Fridman (37:57.640)
How do we spread the message?
Lex Fridman (37:59.720)
Yeah.
Joe Rogan (38:00.200)
Well, I mean, that's the thing that really emerged when we're talking about during my
Joe Rogan (38:04.680)
cancellation, that there's a clear, there's no objective analysis of this in mainstream
Joe Rogan (38:11.560)
media.
Joe Rogan (38:12.280)
There's clear narratives that they're trying to push forward to, whether it's to promote
Joe Rogan (38:19.720)
certain ideas or to diminish the power and reach of people who are mavericks or people
Lex Fridman (38:27.000)
who aren't connected to a system that you can't compromise.
Lex Fridman (38:32.840)
That's where it gets dangerous, right?
Joe Rogan (38:34.600)
Where it gets dangerous is when someone has the largest reach, but is also completely
Joe Rogan (38:39.320)
detached and clearly is independent in the sense of independent thinking, has on whoever
Lex Fridman (38:49.960)
he wants.
Lex Fridman (38:51.000)
But your mind can still be manipulated.
Lex Fridman (38:53.000)
I guess I can.
Joe Rogan (38:53.960)
I mean, I guess everybody can be manipulated a certain way.
Lex Fridman (38:56.360)
I manipulate my own mind, I'm sure too.
Lex Fridman (38:58.280)
But I also spend a lot of time thinking about what I think.
Joe Rogan (39:01.160)
You know, I don't just accept things like the UFO thing, like I was all in for a while
Lex Fridman (39:07.560)
and now I'm like, man, something smells fishy.
Lex Fridman (39:11.160)
And then I'm thinking like, here's my problem with the UFO thing.
Joe Rogan (39:15.720)
I want it to be real so bad.
Lex Fridman (39:18.120)
That's my problem with it.
Joe Rogan (39:19.720)
I'm such a sucker.
Joe Rogan (39:21.800)
I want it to be real so bad, you know, and that's a problem for me because I'm aware
Joe Rogan (39:28.280)
of it.
Lex Fridman (39:28.760)
And so then I stop and think about like, what is my desire for UFO truth to be exposed?
Joe Rogan (39:38.360)
Well, it's because it's fun, you know, that's what it is.
Lex Fridman (39:41.960)
So I have a desire for it to be real.
Joe Rogan (39:44.360)
I mean, I've talked to a bunch of folks about this.
Lex Fridman (39:48.840)
So those with connection with DoD, and they do draw lines between people that are full
Joe Rogan (39:56.040)
of shit and people who are not.
Lex Fridman (39:58.840)
There's a lot of people in the public sphere that they say are full of shit.
Joe Rogan (40:02.920)
Yeah, for sure.
Lex Fridman (40:04.120)
And then you have to kind of tell the difference.
Joe Rogan (40:06.600)
Yeah, CNN, watch them talk.
Joe Rogan (40:08.680)
Well, I mean, on the UFO topic, there's certain individuals that are like, okay, they're
Joe Rogan (40:16.280)
just like using this.
Joe Rogan (40:18.360)
In fact, like people who are not full of shit are often very quiet, which is why, you know,
Joe Rogan (40:23.720)
even Bob Lazar is an interesting story because he was trying to be quiet for the longest
Lex Fridman (40:27.240)
time.
Joe Rogan (40:28.360)
Well, he was worried about his own life, according to Bob, and that's why he went public with
Lex Fridman (40:32.840)
it.
Lex Fridman (40:33.000)
And initially, the first videos he did with George Knapp, they hit his identity.
Lex Fridman (40:37.480)
Yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (40:38.840)
And then he felt like that wasn't enough.
Lex Fridman (40:40.760)
And he really needed to expose his own identity just to protect his life, which is a great
Joe Rogan (40:47.480)
story.
Lex Fridman (40:48.280)
You know, so you got to go, well, that seems so juicy.
Joe Rogan (40:50.920)
I want to buy into it.
Lex Fridman (40:52.280)
And that's where I get nervous.
Joe Rogan (40:53.320)
You don't know.
Lex Fridman (40:53.720)
You don't know who to trust in this world.
Joe Rogan (40:55.240)
Exactly.
Lex Fridman (40:55.880)
How do you figure that out?
Lex Fridman (40:57.800)
How do you figure out who to trust in your life?
Lex Fridman (40:59.720)
You're Joe Rogan.
Joe Rogan (41:00.520)
A lot of people want to be close to you.
Lex Fridman (41:01.720)
CIA agents, FSB agents, people that want to.
Joe Rogan (41:06.200)
I'm friends with a former CIA agent, Mike Baker, who's been on my podcast a bunch of
Lex Fridman (41:10.360)
times.
Joe Rogan (41:10.680)
Allegedly former.
Lex Fridman (41:11.880)
Former.
Joe Rogan (41:12.360)
Think about that.
Lex Fridman (41:12.920)
He's air quotes, former.
Joe Rogan (41:14.040)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (41:14.440)
Yeah, I don't believe he's former.
Joe Rogan (41:16.040)
I'm sure he has some connection to him.
Joe Rogan (41:17.720)
I also believe he's a good guy, but I gain a lot of very intelligent and well informed
Joe Rogan (41:24.040)
insights from him as to how things work.
Joe Rogan (41:26.200)
And, you know, I think, yeah, I'm sure he doesn't tell me everything about everything,
Lex Fridman (41:32.920)
but he's told me enough where I think I can understand things better from talking to him
Lex Fridman (41:40.280)
about how the way, you know, the elves work under the machine.
Lex Fridman (41:46.280)
What about friends?
Lex Fridman (41:47.640)
How do you know if you can trust?
Joe Rogan (41:49.000)
Well, most of my friends are old friends.
Lex Fridman (41:51.320)
Time.
Lex Fridman (41:51.800)
So time is the thing.
Lex Fridman (41:52.840)
Yeah.
Joe Rogan (41:53.400)
Like just going through shit together.
Lex Fridman (41:56.040)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (41:56.280)
And also people that, you know, first of all, comics.
Lex Fridman (42:01.480)
You can trust comics?
Joe Rogan (42:02.520)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (42:03.160)
Comics are pretty trustworthy.
Joe Rogan (42:04.920)
The good ones, the really good ones.
Lex Fridman (42:06.840)
There's not that many of us.
Joe Rogan (42:08.920)
If there's a thousand professional comics on earth, I'd be stunned.
Lex Fridman (42:14.600)
I'd be stunned.
Joe Rogan (42:15.320)
I don't even think there's a thousand like real professionals who you get booked all
Lex Fridman (42:19.880)
the time, headline weekends at clubs and theaters and arenas.
Lex Fridman (42:25.080)
And then there's levels to that, right?
Joe Rogan (42:26.840)
There's like the guys who are middle acts who kind of like barely scraped by and then
Lex Fridman (42:32.440)
like how many headliners are there?
Lex Fridman (42:34.040)
How many like really funny headliners that I would say, you know, if you Lex, you tell
Joe Rogan (42:37.480)
me you're going to be in Cincinnati.
Lex Fridman (42:39.320)
Hey, this person's playing at this club.
Lex Fridman (42:41.080)
Should I go see them?
Lex Fridman (42:42.360)
I'd be like, you know, like how many people would I give the recommendation to?
Lex Fridman (42:47.800)
And then how many people sell out theaters?
Lex Fridman (42:50.920)
How many people sell out arenas?
Lex Fridman (42:52.920)
How many people?
Lex Fridman (42:53.400)
There's not that fucking many.
Lex Fridman (42:55.000)
So those people like at the levels of comedy where you do, you know, you've been doing
Lex Fridman (43:00.680)
stand up for 20 years.
Joe Rogan (43:03.000)
There's a certain amount of honesty and a certain amount of understanding of each other
Lex Fridman (43:06.840)
that we all have.
Joe Rogan (43:07.720)
Oh, so that process of becoming a great comic is like humbling in a way.
Lex Fridman (43:11.640)
Like Jiu Jitsu is humbling.
Joe Rogan (43:13.080)
Very similar.
Joe Rogan (43:14.040)
Like you've eaten so much shit that that somehow, even if you're insane, even if you're chaotic,
Joe Rogan (43:21.400)
even in the way, even if you're full of shit, you lie a lot, all those kinds of things,
Lex Fridman (43:26.680)
underneath it, there's a good human.
Joe Rogan (43:28.920)
You could be surface bullshitter, but on important things, you're trustworthy.
Lex Fridman (43:33.560)
Hopefully.
Joe Rogan (43:34.520)
I mean, if you're not, then people shy away from you.
Lex Fridman (43:37.000)
And there are people like that, too, that are really successful, but that are what I
Joe Rogan (43:41.240)
call islands.
Joe Rogan (43:43.000)
I've talked to other comics about that, like you don't want to be an island because there's
Joe Rogan (43:46.600)
these people that aren't attached to the rest of the community and they're doing well on
Lex Fridman (43:50.280)
their own.
Lex Fridman (43:51.320)
And usually they have like one opening act they bring with them on the road they've worked
Lex Fridman (43:55.160)
with forever and they don't have comedy friends.
Lex Fridman (43:59.160)
And those people are miserable because they can't relate.
Lex Fridman (44:03.400)
Sometimes fame in itself is isolating.
Lex Fridman (44:05.960)
So you have to actually do a lot of work and make sure you don't, it doesn't isolate you.
Lex Fridman (44:09.960)
Because if you become successful, people start wanting stuff from you.
Lex Fridman (44:14.920)
And then sometimes you want to push them away because of that, as opposed to connect with
Lex Fridman (44:19.160)
them.
Joe Rogan (44:19.640)
Yeah, I don't enjoy it when people want things from me.
Lex Fridman (44:22.600)
It's not fun.
Joe Rogan (44:23.320)
You just ignore it.
Lex Fridman (44:24.440)
Yeah, it's fucking too heavy.
Joe Rogan (44:26.440)
They want too much.
Lex Fridman (44:27.480)
And it's too much of a disproportionate relationship.
Joe Rogan (44:32.280)
It's too unbalanced.
Joe Rogan (44:34.280)
Because there are people where you could tell that they're working toward something.
Joe Rogan (44:39.880)
They're working towards an angle and they want to be close to you because you will benefit
Lex Fridman (44:45.640)
them.
Lex Fridman (44:46.200)
And then there's other people that are just, there's not that many of us.
Lex Fridman (44:49.960)
And so we all want to hang out together.
Joe Rogan (44:51.960)
Like when I, one of the podcasts I love the most is this podcast I do called Protect Our
Lex Fridman (44:56.760)
Parks.
Joe Rogan (44:57.560)
It's a thing I do with Ari Shaffir, Shane Gillis and Mark Nolen.
Lex Fridman (45:01.080)
It's great.
Joe Rogan (45:01.800)
It's so fun because we just get obliterated and we talk so much shit.
Joe Rogan (45:06.920)
Like there's conversations after that podcast where I go, hey man, we got to cut that part
Joe Rogan (45:10.520)
out because like Shane will go too far or go too crazy.
Lex Fridman (45:14.520)
But we're just making each other laugh and it's just fun.
Lex Fridman (45:17.800)
And it's like that kind of camaraderie between real comics is very precious to me.
Lex Fridman (45:22.440)
My favorite part of that is like the non sequitur stuff from Mark Norman.
Lex Fridman (45:26.440)
And you guys get so trashed that you don't even understand what the hell he's talking
Lex Fridman (45:29.960)
about.
Lex Fridman (45:30.120)
But it's funny to the listener because he's still on point.
Lex Fridman (45:33.000)
That guy is sharp.
Joe Rogan (45:34.360)
He's so good.
Lex Fridman (45:35.400)
Mitch Hedberg quality.
Joe Rogan (45:37.400)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (45:38.280)
Well, he's such a dedicated comic.
Joe Rogan (45:41.400)
He loves comedy so much.
Lex Fridman (45:43.320)
That's one of the things I love about him.
Joe Rogan (45:44.680)
He's like comedy.
Lex Fridman (45:45.960)
He gets excited.
Joe Rogan (45:47.400)
He loves it.
Lex Fridman (45:48.440)
As does Shane and as does Ari.
Joe Rogan (45:50.840)
They really love it.
Lex Fridman (45:53.560)
So there's that.
Joe Rogan (45:54.600)
Like I have friends in that way and I have martial arts friends who are some of the also
Lex Fridman (45:59.480)
the thing about being humbled, how things like Jiu Jitsu will humble you.
Joe Rogan (46:03.480)
Martial arts friends, they know who's been through it.
Joe Rogan (46:11.480)
They know who really has gone through the gauntlet and emerged on the other end a better
Joe Rogan (46:17.640)
person.
Lex Fridman (46:18.360)
Well, you said there's very few of us.
Joe Rogan (46:20.680)
Let's have the goat discussion.
Lex Fridman (46:22.120)
You're not going to pick anybody, but who are the greats of comedy?
Lex Fridman (46:27.240)
Who's the greatest comic of all time?
Lex Fridman (46:29.240)
I don't think there is a greatest comic of all time.
Lex Fridman (46:31.720)
Is it Norm Macdonald?
Lex Fridman (46:34.280)
Norm Macdonald was one of the greats for sure.
Joe Rogan (46:36.760)
Well, by the way, actually on that topic, what do you think about is I think as a person
Joe Rogan (46:41.080)
who is fascinated by the fear of death and death, I think it was a truly genius thing
Joe Rogan (46:47.320)
to release a special after you're dead.
Lex Fridman (46:50.360)
I don't know how that works.
Joe Rogan (46:51.240)
I haven't seen the special of you.
Lex Fridman (46:53.000)
Yeah, it's called I think nothing special.
Joe Rogan (46:58.680)
Which sounds like something Norm would say.
Lex Fridman (47:00.760)
And it's basically him in front of...
Joe Rogan (47:04.200)
I mean, I imagine he wouldn't have wanted it edited that way because it's made to look
Lex Fridman (47:10.120)
nicer than I think he probably would have preferred it.
Lex Fridman (47:13.160)
But it's him in front of the screen like in a Zoom call doing jokes without cold.
Lex Fridman (47:21.560)
Really?
Joe Rogan (47:22.040)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (47:22.680)
And somehow given his like dry, dark humor, it works.
Joe Rogan (47:29.320)
Because it's almost making fun of itself.
Lex Fridman (47:31.560)
Almost making fun of that hole that we were stuck alone inside.
Lex Fridman (47:37.400)
And because he's still acting as if he's in front of the audience and is almost making
Lex Fridman (47:42.440)
fun of the fact that this is what we're forced to do.
Joe Rogan (47:44.920)
I mean, it's quite genius.
Lex Fridman (47:46.040)
It's really well...
Lex Fridman (47:46.680)
And the jokes are really good.
Lex Fridman (47:48.520)
But it also makes you realize how important laughter is from the audience, the energy
Joe Rogan (47:52.280)
from the audience.
Lex Fridman (47:54.680)
But there's also an intimacy because it's just you and him because you're listening
Joe Rogan (47:58.920)
into it, there's no audience.
Lex Fridman (48:01.000)
So that's, I don't know, I think it's quite genius.
Lex Fridman (48:04.040)
And he is, of course, there's certain comics that are like, not only are they funny, but
Lex Fridman (48:10.040)
they're truly unique.
Lex Fridman (48:12.680)
And they're not in terms of friendship and all that kind of stuff, but in terms of comedy,
Lex Fridman (48:20.280)
they're an island.
Joe Rogan (48:21.640)
It's like they, you know, Mitch Hedberg probably is that.
Lex Fridman (48:24.440)
Of course, a lot of people then start to imitate them and so on.
Joe Rogan (48:27.560)
Stephen Wright.
Lex Fridman (48:28.600)
Stephen Wright.
Joe Rogan (48:30.600)
I mean, there's like people who are like, you know, Dave Chappelle, who's like probably
Lex Fridman (48:35.560)
one of the greats, but he's just like raw funny.
Joe Rogan (48:39.240)
I don't know if he's an island.
Lex Fridman (48:41.000)
He's just raw.
Joe Rogan (48:42.120)
Yeah, I know what you're saying.
Lex Fridman (48:43.160)
An outlier, a unique individual.
Joe Rogan (48:45.320)
Yeah, he's just great.
Lex Fridman (48:47.960)
Norm was definitely unique in his greatness.
Joe Rogan (48:51.000)
There's only one Norm, you know, who's got a very specific style.
Joe Rogan (48:54.520)
Is there a reason you guys weren't, it doesn't seem like he was, you guys were close.
Joe Rogan (48:58.840)
I mean, I loved him.
Lex Fridman (48:59.880)
He was great.
Joe Rogan (49:00.600)
I always enjoyed talking to him.
Lex Fridman (49:04.120)
We just didn't work together that often.
Joe Rogan (49:05.560)
We weren't around each other that often.
Lex Fridman (49:07.160)
That's all it was, but it wasn't like, it was, I loved him though.
Joe Rogan (49:11.560)
He was a great guy.
Lex Fridman (49:12.440)
I had a funny story about it, Norm.
Joe Rogan (49:15.000)
Twice, just randomly, I was on airplanes next to him.
Lex Fridman (49:19.160)
Seated right next to him.
Joe Rogan (49:20.200)
Just totally random.
Joe Rogan (49:21.160)
Yeah, and one time we're on this airplane and we're having this talk and I was like,
Joe Rogan (49:27.160)
yeah, I quit smoking.
Lex Fridman (49:28.760)
I was smoking a lot and I just had terrible, terrible smoke.
Joe Rogan (49:32.760)
It's terrible for you.
Lex Fridman (49:34.440)
And we have this great conversation.
Joe Rogan (49:35.800)
We get off the plane and he sprints towards a store and buys cigarettes like in the airport
Lex Fridman (49:42.920)
and is lighting it on the way out the door.
Lex Fridman (49:46.600)
And I go, I thought you quit smoking.
Lex Fridman (49:48.120)
It was, yeah, I did.
Lex Fridman (49:49.160)
But all that talking about smoking made me want to smoke again.
Lex Fridman (49:54.360)
So before he's getting through the door of the airport, he's lighting it up.
Joe Rogan (49:58.440)
I can't wait.
Lex Fridman (50:00.920)
He can't wait to get that cigarette in him.
Joe Rogan (50:02.760)
It was, he was just so crazy and impulsive and loved to gamble.
Lex Fridman (50:08.360)
He loved gambling.
Lex Fridman (50:09.880)
And in that way, he embodied the joke.
Joe Rogan (50:12.440)
You can't even tell that certain people just live in a non sequitur, ridiculous, absurd,
Joe Rogan (50:20.920)
funny way.
Lex Fridman (50:21.720)
Yeah, that was him.
Joe Rogan (50:23.640)
Nonstop.
Lex Fridman (50:24.920)
There was nothing artificial about Norm.
Joe Rogan (50:28.200)
That was who he was.
Lex Fridman (50:29.880)
His brilliance was his essence.
Joe Rogan (50:33.000)
That was who he was.
Lex Fridman (50:35.240)
But in terms of the greats, the godfather of it all is Lenny Bruce.
Joe Rogan (50:40.760)
I mean, I have a bunch of Lenny Bruce concert posters at my house and photos that I have
Joe Rogan (50:46.200)
framed and Whitney Cummings actually gave me this brilliant photo of him when he got
Joe Rogan (50:50.520)
arrested for one of the times when he got arrested for saying obscene jokes.
Joe Rogan (50:55.880)
He was the most important figure in the early days of comedy because he essentially gave
Joe Rogan (51:02.760)
birth to the modern art form of standup comedy.
Joe Rogan (51:05.720)
Before that, it was a bunch of guys that were like hosting shows and they would tell jokes.
Joe Rogan (51:10.760)
They were just like, you know, two guys walking to a bar, that kind of stuff.
Lex Fridman (51:15.960)
And he would talk about social issues.
Joe Rogan (51:21.400)
You know, he would talk about life.
Lex Fridman (51:23.080)
He would talk about language.
Joe Rogan (51:24.520)
He would talk about laws.
Lex Fridman (51:27.240)
And it was just he was the very first guy who did modern standup.
Lex Fridman (51:33.720)
And what's fascinating is if you go and you try to watch it, if you try to watch Lenny
Lex Fridman (51:40.440)
Bruce today, it doesn't work because society has evolved.
Joe Rogan (51:45.640)
Like in many ways, art is a window, especially like pop culture or modern, you know, at the
Joe Rogan (51:53.480)
time, culture, art, art that discusses culture is a window into that time period.
Joe Rogan (52:01.560)
It's a little bit of a time machine.
Lex Fridman (52:03.320)
So you get to like, you have to put yourself like, what was it like to be in 1963?
Lex Fridman (52:08.520)
Like, what was he in 1963?
Lex Fridman (52:10.440)
What was this like to hear him say this?
Lex Fridman (52:13.480)
And the civilization that existed in 1963, although it looked pretty similar, they're
Lex Fridman (52:20.760)
all driving cars and they're all wearing suits and they're all it seems normal.
Joe Rogan (52:24.280)
That's a it's a different world.
Lex Fridman (52:27.000)
And the things that he was saying that are so taboo are so normal today that they're
Joe Rogan (52:33.160)
not shocking.
Lex Fridman (52:34.360)
And it's not not that good.
Joe Rogan (52:36.440)
It's not that funny.
Joe Rogan (52:37.400)
Yeah, you have to do the same kind of stuff for like there's a D.H. Lawrence has a book
Joe Rogan (52:42.600)
called Lady Chatterley's Lover.
Lex Fridman (52:45.480)
And I know it sounds ridiculous, but it was one of the early books, I believe, at the
Joe Rogan (52:50.920)
over a century ago that was very controversial for its sexual content.
Joe Rogan (52:54.920)
It's sort of one of the great books because it dared to actually talk about a woman cheating
Joe Rogan (53:00.120)
on her husband and like and do so in the highest form.
Lex Fridman (53:04.680)
And the same thing with Gulag Archipelago talking about talking about some of the darkest
Joe Rogan (53:09.080)
aspects of human history right when all of that stuff is forbidden, when it's banned.
Lex Fridman (53:14.920)
Because now it's like not, you know, yes, we all know this history.
Lex Fridman (53:18.760)
But when in the middle of it, when you're risking your own life, when you're risking
Joe Rogan (53:23.000)
your book being banned or burned or you being in prison, that's when it matters, like taking
Joe Rogan (53:28.360)
that risk.
Lex Fridman (53:29.320)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (53:29.800)
And no one took that risk more than Lenny Bruce.
Lex Fridman (53:32.440)
Lenny Bruce was arrested many, many times.
Lex Fridman (53:34.920)
And ultimately, it wound up costing him his life.
Joe Rogan (53:39.160)
I mean, he died on the bathroom floor shooting heroin and trying to cope with all the lawsuits
Joe Rogan (53:44.680)
that he was going through.
Lex Fridman (53:45.720)
This guy was constantly being arrested and constantly going through lawsuits.
Lex Fridman (53:50.040)
And then his comedy deteriorated horribly.
Joe Rogan (53:53.000)
There's some footage of him towards the end of his career where he's essentially would
Joe Rogan (53:57.160)
go on stage with legal papers and read from the legal papers about his case.
Lex Fridman (54:01.640)
From then, it's Richard Pryor.
Joe Rogan (54:03.320)
From him, then the next great is Richard Pryor.
Lex Fridman (54:05.720)
And he had the most profound impact on me when I was a kid.
Joe Rogan (54:09.240)
When I was 15 years old, my parents took me to see Live at the Sunset Strip, which is
Lex Fridman (54:14.040)
Richard Pryor's concert film.
Lex Fridman (54:15.800)
And I remember very distinctly being in that audience and laughing and looking around at
Joe Rogan (54:23.800)
all the people in the audience who were like falling out of their chairs, just dying, laughing,
Joe Rogan (54:29.800)
just swaying back and forth.
Lex Fridman (54:32.200)
And I was laughing hard, too.
Lex Fridman (54:33.560)
And I was like, my God, this guy is doing this just by talking.
Lex Fridman (54:37.160)
And I thought of all the great movies that I'd seen that I love that were hilarious comedy
Joe Rogan (54:41.080)
movies.
Lex Fridman (54:42.040)
And I was like, nothing that I've ever seen is as funny as this.
Lex Fridman (54:45.400)
And all he's doing is talking.
Lex Fridman (54:46.920)
And that planted a seed in my head for my love of stand up comedy and my curiosity about
Joe Rogan (54:53.640)
the art form.
Lex Fridman (54:54.440)
And that's what got me interested in watching it on television and then ultimately going
Joe Rogan (54:59.720)
to open mic nights and then eventually doing it.
Lex Fridman (55:03.400)
I've actually been going to open mics a lot recently, just listening.
Joe Rogan (55:07.160)
For psychological examinations of people.
Joe Rogan (55:10.200)
No, it's actually really inspiring to me to see people that somewhere in the world
Joe Rogan (55:16.840)
some are funny, some are not so funny, unapologetically trying, putting it all out there night after
Lex Fridman (55:23.800)
night, like eating shit.
Joe Rogan (55:27.240)
My favorite is when you're talking about five people in the audience and the jokes are just
Lex Fridman (55:34.680)
not landing.
Lex Fridman (55:36.920)
And they still, I don't know, it feels like even just empathetically, there's few things
Lex Fridman (55:43.480)
as difficult as that.
Joe Rogan (55:44.840)
It's hard.
Joe Rogan (55:45.400)
I still remember those days, many comics will say this, and I think Dane Cook was the first
Joe Rogan (55:50.200)
person I heard say it publicly, that if he ever had to go back and do it again, like
Lex Fridman (55:54.920)
from scratch, doesn't think he could do it.
Joe Rogan (55:56.600)
Doesn't think he could endure the struggle of open mic to ultimately to success.
Lex Fridman (56:04.440)
And the numbers of people that try it and fail versus try and succeed are off the charts.
Joe Rogan (56:11.320)
I don't know if there's any other art form that has such a low rate of success.
Lex Fridman (56:16.840)
Because it's psychological, it's torture.
Joe Rogan (56:18.840)
It is torture, and it's also not something you can learn.
Lex Fridman (56:22.120)
Like, here's the thing, like, if you play guitar, you can learn to play guitar.
Joe Rogan (56:27.960)
Someone can teach you the chords, and if you do it, you could do all along the watchtower,
Lex Fridman (56:33.240)
you could play it.
Joe Rogan (56:35.080)
You can't teach someone how to do comedy.
Lex Fridman (56:37.880)
You think it's you're funny or not?
Lex Fridman (56:39.400)
You think it's you're funny or not, or can you still figure it out?
Lex Fridman (56:44.600)
Like, can you still learn?
Joe Rogan (56:45.480)
You can figure it out, yeah.
Lex Fridman (56:47.000)
Can you start being unfunny and become funny?
Joe Rogan (56:51.480)
Yes, it's possible.
Lex Fridman (56:53.160)
It's not easy, though.
Joe Rogan (56:54.680)
You're gonna have to eat a lot of shit.
Joe Rogan (56:56.360)
You're gonna have to eat a lot of shit, and you're gonna have to examine why you're not
Joe Rogan (56:59.400)
funny, and you're gonna have to spend a lot of time with uncomfortable thoughts and try
Lex Fridman (57:05.400)
to figure out what it is.
Lex Fridman (57:07.320)
Like, what's missing?
Lex Fridman (57:08.200)
Like, you know, could you edit your stuff and make it better?
Joe Rogan (57:12.520)
Maybe you need to do drugs.
Joe Rogan (57:14.440)
Maybe you need to get involved in psychedelic drugs and rethink the way you interface with
Joe Rogan (57:19.560)
reality itself.
Lex Fridman (57:21.000)
Maybe you need your heart broken.
Joe Rogan (57:23.080)
Maybe you need to be in love.
Lex Fridman (57:24.680)
Maybe there's a lot of maybes there.
Joe Rogan (57:26.920)
Like, maybe you just need more life experience.
Lex Fridman (57:29.160)
But, you know, when I started comedy, I was 21, and I was a moron.
Lex Fridman (57:32.760)
I had no information, you know?
Lex Fridman (57:35.480)
I could do impressions of people, and I could talk about sex.
Joe Rogan (57:39.720)
Those are the things that I was interested in back then.
Lex Fridman (57:43.240)
I mean, if I was talking philosophically, I didn't have a philosophy.
Joe Rogan (57:47.160)
I didn't have a unique perspective on life.
Lex Fridman (57:50.200)
I hadn't experienced much.
Joe Rogan (57:51.320)
So, every time you bomb, it forces you to introspect, to ask questions of yourself,
Lex Fridman (57:56.440)
and then that's how you actually develop a philosophy of what you actually believe.
Joe Rogan (58:00.840)
You learn through doing, and I think you could say that about podcasting, too.
Joe Rogan (58:05.320)
You know, I'm certainly way better at having conversations than I ever was when I first
Joe Rogan (58:10.440)
started doing comedy.
Lex Fridman (58:11.560)
Or, excuse me, when I first started doing podcasts.
Joe Rogan (58:13.800)
You learn through it.
Lex Fridman (58:14.280)
You should stick with it, kid.
Joe Rogan (58:15.480)
Because one day, you'll be able to interview Donald Trump.
Lex Fridman (58:18.440)
You'd be mad enough to handle that conversation.
Lex Fridman (58:24.040)
How hard is it to do?
Lex Fridman (58:25.000)
Because I've been really curious.
Joe Rogan (58:27.240)
It's been on my bucket list because I'm terrified.
Lex Fridman (58:29.480)
I want to do everything I'm terrified of.
Lex Fridman (58:31.000)
Do you want to do stand up?
Lex Fridman (58:32.120)
No.
Lex Fridman (58:32.600)
But I do want to do, like, one five minute, like, open mic.
Lex Fridman (58:37.240)
Why don't you do Kill Tony?
Lex Fridman (58:38.760)
How hard is it to do five minutes, would you say?
Lex Fridman (58:40.920)
It's hard.
Joe Rogan (58:42.360)
Well, it depends on, you know, how long you've been thinking about doing comedy.
Lex Fridman (58:46.520)
It depends on how you look at things.
Lex Fridman (58:48.840)
And also depends on your style of comedy.
Joe Rogan (58:50.680)
Like, the most difficult style of comedy is, like, I think, like, Stephen Wright style
Joe Rogan (58:54.920)
is probably the most difficult style of comedy.
Lex Fridman (58:57.000)
Complete non sequiturs.
Joe Rogan (58:58.680)
One subject doesn't lead into the next.
Lex Fridman (59:00.760)
There's no flow to it.
Joe Rogan (59:02.120)
It's just, oh, I noticed this.
Lex Fridman (59:03.800)
I noticed that.
Lex Fridman (59:05.000)
And then there's this.
Lex Fridman (59:05.960)
And then there's that.
Lex Fridman (59:07.000)
And that's hard to memorize.
Lex Fridman (59:09.880)
And it's really hard to piece together an hour of non sequiturs.
Lex Fridman (59:14.760)
But it's easier because you can rely on the joke.
Lex Fridman (59:17.960)
It sits more with the joke.
Joe Rogan (59:20.760)
Like, whether you're funny or not is on the actual material versus, like, the timing
Lex Fridman (59:25.480)
and the energy of the dance with the audience, right?
Joe Rogan (59:28.520)
Because, like, if you don't have the raw jokes like Stephen Wright does or Mitch
Lex Fridman (59:32.520)
Hedberg, then you have to, it's all about the delivery.
Joe Rogan (59:37.320)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (59:37.720)
And, yeah, they either kill or they bomb.
Lex Fridman (59:41.800)
Is it random?
Lex Fridman (59:42.760)
Like, whether they kill or bomb?
Joe Rogan (59:44.360)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (59:45.160)
Well, I mean, you're essentially a different person every day of your life.
Joe Rogan (59:49.640)
You know, you're similar.
Lex Fridman (59:51.960)
But you're more tired.
Joe Rogan (59:53.880)
You're more rested.
Lex Fridman (59:55.320)
You're exhausted.
Joe Rogan (59:56.760)
You're refreshed.
Lex Fridman (59:58.120)
You have vitamins and food nourishment in your system.
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