Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan: The Greatest of All Time

Lex Fridman (02:21.920)

some set of skills attributes

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (02:26.480)

Will always be somewhat undervalued they're underappreciated by the people in the game

Lex Fridman (02:32.440)

You see that at any in any given industry there are always trends which change

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (02:38.440)

The nature of the industry over time so

Lex Fridman (02:43.280)

fashion trends in the clothing industry, you'll see at any given time is a

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (02:49.040)

General wave of fashion which pushes most of the people in the industry in a given direction at a given time

Lex Fridman (02:55.840)

What makes people stand out is the ability to look at the various possibilities out there and say here is something which is genuinely

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (03:04.040)

useful, but which is currently being underused underutilized and I want to bring that back in and

Lex Fridman (03:12.000)

develop it and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (03:14.560)

Because it's an inherently useful product

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (03:17.960)

It will be very very successful in its initial applications against people who aren't currently using it

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (03:27.000)

If you can do this in whatever industry you're in I believe you'll be highly successful

Lex Fridman (03:31.960)

successful to the supplies both for actual specific like techniques and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (03:37.120)

the also tactics as well in the case of

Lex Fridman (03:40.480)

Jiu Jitsu, so for example in my sport leg locks have always been around

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (03:46.000)

Okay, there's there's no shortage of people you can look back in history who applying leg locks

Lex Fridman (03:51.120)

Nonetheless as in across the industry

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (03:54.680)

Leg locks were undervalued and underappreciated. There was a general sense in which most of the leading figures of the sport

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (04:00.540)

For most of the history of the sport of Jiu Jitsu tended to deemphasize leg locks and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (04:08.180)

When I looked at them I said there was immense potential but it wasn't being realized and needed to be changed

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (04:16.860)

Since then that has more or less occurred now most people coming into the sport understand that leg locks are an important

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (04:23.980)

Aspect and they're no longer undervalued if anything it's gone too far the other way and now perhaps they're a little overvalued

Lex Fridman (04:28.860)

and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (04:30.340)

the

Lex Fridman (04:31.500)

this kind of

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (04:33.220)

fashion trend exists in every industry and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (04:37.260)

The job of anyone who wants to excel in a given industry is to be able to identify

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (04:41.780)

okay, what are the things that are currently out of fashion and undervalued and then

Lex Fridman (04:47.100)

Look at what is their actual objective value and then work

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (04:52.260)

To to to bring them back to the forefront. So John brought up fashion

Lex Fridman (04:56.740)

George is wearing a really sexy shirt. So

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (05:01.140)

Assuming that's not the reason is there

Lex Fridman (05:03.580)

Is there something that comes to mind as the key to the success of your incredible career?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (05:08.140)

Well, of course everybody knows the famous and sort of every athletes are saying oh, it's could be genetic

Lex Fridman (05:14.860)

I was maybe gifted that certain predisposition. I worked really hard

Lex Fridman (05:19.700)

but I think

Lex Fridman (05:21.660)

something that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (05:23.340)

People don't talk enough is when everybody sometime go, right? I

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (05:29.580)

Was never afraid to try to go left and I felt many time trying to do things that were not

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (05:39.540)

Known to be things that would bring me brought me success, but I tried it, you know

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (05:44.940)

I was very often I was the first of trying new things and I felt many time but certain times

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (05:50.780)

it gives me a certain advantage and

Lex Fridman (05:55.620)

for example, I

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (05:57.300)

was sometime fighting guys that add much better wrestling background and than me on paper and

Lex Fridman (06:04.340)

nobody before that fought those guys never nobody had there to try to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (06:10.580)

Take them down because their wrestling pedigree were so good and I didn't have on paper

Lex Fridman (06:16.020)

the wrestling pedigree to take these guys down in a fight, but when everybody

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (06:23.460)

Tried to go right I was going left I fought them in a different way and that was

Lex Fridman (06:29.300)

The blueprint to beat certain some of these guys, you know what I mean? You know what I mean?

Lex Fridman (06:33.660)

So yeah, so we'll actually talk about a few fights where that you did just that this is fascinating

Lex Fridman (06:38.220)

But let's say at the high level so Gordon again sticking on fashion

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (06:42.700)

I may compliment your incredible badass hat trying to fit in here

Lex Fridman (06:48.940)

We should say we're in Texas now, so he's

Lex Fridman (06:52.300)

Become a Texan overnight. So what is there something you can speak to that you would attribute to as the key to your success?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (06:58.580)

yeah, so first of all, it has to be a role where you don't ask us all those same questions because

Lex Fridman (07:03.500)

How am I supposed to compete with the answer? John just gave

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (07:06.420)

There's nothing I can do that's gonna top that. Yeah, but uh, I think it's uh, there's many things

Lex Fridman (07:12.260)

But I think the number one thing is just is John

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (07:14.740)

When I came in, I was a blue belt and I was beating brown and black belts in competition already

Lex Fridman (07:20.540)

But he really changed my way of thinking about the sport

Lex Fridman (07:23.860)

I would just come in and if something wasn't working

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (07:25.860)

I would just do it harder and faster and more aggressively and that just degenerated me into a degenerated into me

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (07:33.820)

spastically knee sliding into cross hashi garami against Eddie Cummings for six months and then just getting heel hooked repeatedly and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (07:39.140)

I'm like, this is not working and Eddie like when I met him was like a chubby

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (07:43.940)

Librarian looking guy and I'm like, there's no I'm like six to like a jacked like 170 and I'm like

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (07:48.880)

There's no way I'm losing to a guy who looks like this, but he just kept heel hooking me

Lex Fridman (07:52.760)

So I would just go harder and harder and it wouldn't work and then John's like well

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (07:56.180)

If you learned leg locks, you might you might have some more success

Lex Fridman (07:59.940)

And then I was like, yeah, that probably makes sense

Lex Fridman (08:02.300)

And from then on I kind of just changed the way I thought about the sport instead of doing doing things harder

Lex Fridman (08:07.740)

I would actually try to get better at jujitsu. Do you remember like a turning point where?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (08:13.780)

You became as opposed to being mediocre not just in technique but an approach to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (08:20.700)

To great. Um, I think it was somewhere around brown belt level when I was training consistently

Lex Fridman (08:26.780)

So I trained full time with John when I was purple belt mid level purple belt and towards the end of my brown belt

Lex Fridman (08:32.820)

Days, I was beating up like legitimate like ADCC champions in the gym. Um,

Lex Fridman (08:38.780)

so I think like

Lex Fridman (08:40.200)

Brown to black belt was a big thing for me

Lex Fridman (08:42.600)

And then when I won my first EBI and I was I submitted Yuri who won ADCC and I beat roost them

Lex Fridman (08:47.820)

Um, so I think that was like my turning point as a competitor

Lex Fridman (08:50.740)

But I think I started to to reach world level a little bit before that

Lex Fridman (08:54.820)

I think somewhere around brown belt mid level to late level brown belt

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (08:57.180)

It was some of that mental like it was there a moment when you like after a training session you realize

Lex Fridman (09:03.620)

I can actually do this

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (09:05.620)

Like I could be at the top of the world world class

Lex Fridman (09:09.120)

The critical moment for me was when I think it was right

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (09:12.840)

Right when I got my black belt, maybe a few months before I got my black belt

Lex Fridman (09:16.440)

we had a former ADCC champion come into the gym and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (09:20.700)

we did a hard round together and I think I submitted them like four or five times and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (09:24.560)

No one knew who I was. I never won anything up into that point and I was like, okay

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (09:29.080)

Like if this is like one of the best guys in the world and I could submit him multiple times around

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (09:33.440)

I think that this is like something that I actually could do professionally and make a make a career out of this

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (09:40.080)

Okay. So the actual performance was the like you don't need to believe before you could perform like a lot of Olympic gold medalists

Lex Fridman (09:48.960)

they

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (09:50.040)

They have to believe before they can perform because like they're getting their ass kicked for a long long long time

Lex Fridman (09:56.720)

Yeah

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (09:57.200)

I think but the best way for me to believe in something is to have

Lex Fridman (09:59.840)

Repeated success doing it against high level guys

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (10:02.280)

Like I'm not gonna just believe I can do a double leg if I can't a double leg on anybody

Lex Fridman (10:06.040)

So for me the the belief came from the repeated success in the gym

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (10:10.600)

Yeah, but to get to the point where you're submitting somebody like your ASMO is like one of the the greatest grapplers ever

Lex Fridman (10:17.280)

It's like a long journey

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (10:19.080)

Yeah, but I had the confidence

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (10:21.320)

I had the belief in myself because of the success that I had in the gym prior to that got it

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (10:26.640)

Even and it's one step at a time first. It's the brown belts then it's the black belts and it's world class. Okay

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (10:32.520)

George was there a turning point for you when you you thought like I can actually do this

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (10:37.960)

Yes, I I always dreamed to become champion

Lex Fridman (10:42.720)

but I think the turning point that there was that there was two turning point and

Lex Fridman (10:46.800)

And there were my two losses

Lex Fridman (10:50.320)

First my losses to Matt Hughes I went into that fight

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (10:56.240)

Just to not lose I was not fighting to win and it's after the fight when I watched the

Lex Fridman (11:04.600)

Replay of the fight. I realized I was like I was doing pretty well

Lex Fridman (11:08.000)

But during the fight in my own mind, I was not seeing it that way

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (11:12.880)

I I thought I was getting dominated by Hughes like a hundred percent, but when I watched the replay I

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (11:20.800)

Was like man, I can I can beat this guy. I was beating him until I made that stupid mistake

Lex Fridman (11:27.080)

so I was very frustrating but but I

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (11:31.160)

That's what gave me the mentally the the championship level

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (11:36.720)

mentality and then I became a little bit overconfident because I start beating everybody after that and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (11:44.360)

I

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (11:45.480)

Start to believe the hype of people when they look at me. They were like, oh, he's the new

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (11:51.160)

Upcoming superstar and he's gonna be unstoppable and and then when I became champion, I I

Lex Fridman (11:58.000)

lost to to to Matt to Matt Sarah, so

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (12:02.400)

before I believe

Lex Fridman (12:04.200)

my first failure was because I had a lack of confidence and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (12:09.120)

and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (12:10.600)

My second failure was I was because I was overconfidence. So I think it's there's a perfect

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (12:18.160)

Center of confidence. I mean, I mean it's good to be confident because John taught me like confidence

Lex Fridman (12:23.840)

It's it's like money in your bank account if you you can have all the skills in the world, right?

Lex Fridman (12:28.400)

and and if you're

Lex Fridman (12:30.000)

If you don't have the confidence, it's like you it's like you can you can be a millionaire?

Lex Fridman (12:35.160)

But you don't have access to your bank account. So it's that's a little bit the analogy that John told me

Lex Fridman (12:40.840)

So that's how I feel a confidence plays for Natalie but to be overconfident

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (12:44.960)

I think it's always good to to be aware to be afraid of what can happen

Lex Fridman (12:50.760)

So to have a perfect balance of confidence and fear to me

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (12:56.000)

That's what mentally gave me the edge to become I believe successful in my sport playing off that

Lex Fridman (13:03.440)

John gave me a speech one time and he was like you have to be able to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (13:08.160)

like flip a switch and turn it off where like a guy like Mayweather or someone who goes out who's super confident and

Lex Fridman (13:14.720)

He plays the character of someone who's like no one can beat me

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (13:17.620)

I'm the best that there ever was and that's it

Lex Fridman (13:20.400)

But if you look at me actually trained very hard

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (13:22.280)

You can't you can't play the persona of no one can beat me and have it translate into your life and just think that you're

Lex Fridman (13:27.240)

So good that you don't have to do anything and no one can ever beat you

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (13:29.600)

You have to be able to play that public persona of no one can beat me

Lex Fridman (13:32.720)

But then you have to actually do the training to make that happen

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (13:35.920)

You can't just you can't believe your own hype and say say that you know, I can just do whatever I want

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (13:40.040)

No one's ever gonna beat me if the able to switch between the persona and the actual athlete and that made a big difference for me

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (13:45.960)

it's tough because

Lex Fridman (13:47.720)

like you're you you dominate such a large fraction of the world and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (13:53.440)

grappling and

Lex Fridman (13:54.920)

The George to just the perfect dominance after those two

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (13:59.480)

it's hard for the confidence not to just

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (14:03.280)

Like how do you avoid the confidence not becoming a thing that weighs you down where you completely

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (14:09.120)

deludes your mind

Lex Fridman (14:11.640)

For me, it's just number one the guys in the gym are so tough

Lex Fridman (14:15.120)

So the guys in the guys in the gym that I train with are always like nipping at my butt and always giving me new

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (14:20.440)

New problems to solve and for me, it's really just about trying to learn new stuff over time

Lex Fridman (14:25.720)

So that keeps it interesting for me and it's not really about

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (14:29.880)

You know, no one could beat me I don't have to train or have to do it I could do whatever I want

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (14:33.280)

It's more what keeps me in the gym is more about the fact that I'm learning new stuff all the time of working on something

Lex Fridman (14:38.600)

new and progressing to new levels at all times

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (14:40.840)

it's not I don't just come in and do the same thing over and over again and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (14:43.840)

That gets boring you just come in and you don't learn anything new and you just do the same stuff for years at a time

Lex Fridman (14:49.360)

And okay, okay

Lex Fridman (14:50.360)

This is boring

Lex Fridman (14:50.920)

But when you have new stuff to work on and new goals short term and long term goals to reach then it makes it interesting

Lex Fridman (14:56.600)

it's a

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (14:57.760)

For me, it's a little bit like Gordon says is the fear because sometime in the gym even before I when it was competing

Lex Fridman (15:04.720)

I was I was getting my butt kicked

Lex Fridman (15:06.840)

But I don't care what happened in the gym

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (15:08.920)

I mean it hit my ego, of course because I'm a proud person I'm a competitor even in the gym

Lex Fridman (15:13.520)

but it's not a malicious competition competition in between each other when you fight you have to be malicious you go there to hurt the

Lex Fridman (15:20.440)

guy

Lex Fridman (15:21.160)

but it it hit it hit me in terms of my pride when I get

Lex Fridman (15:26.240)

beat in a gym, of course, but

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (15:29.200)

that fear

Lex Fridman (15:31.360)

That I don't want it to happen in public

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (15:34.880)

especially not during a fight that what keeps help me keeps the balance between confidence and and and and fear

Lex Fridman (15:41.640)

You know what? I mean? It's kind of weird. It's a mix

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (15:44.440)

It's a mixture of both that I believe I to me

Lex Fridman (15:49.760)

Help me

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (15:51.280)

Succeed to have the right mindset to fight and I talk so much shit that I'm like man if I lose this

Lex Fridman (15:57.400)

This is gonna be rough. So yeah, you put a lot of I mean

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (16:01.440)

that's that's the hard thing to do when you talk shit when you when you play the heel is

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (16:05.880)

Is so massive perform. He's the pressure is I mean you have to be good under pressure

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (16:11.480)

It's the Conor McGregor thing, you know, the reason I actually started talking shit was actually like indirectly because of George

Lex Fridman (16:19.040)

because

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (16:20.080)

Because I will become the opposite of George

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (16:22.640)

I won I won my first DBI and I I didn't talk shit and everyone was like being like, oh, you know

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (16:28.680)

you only beat Yuri because because he was tired or

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (16:31.960)

you know this or that and if they have a rematch under any of the rules that he would have lost and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (16:37.520)

I'm like trying to figure out what I'm gonna do

Lex Fridman (16:39.320)

So I'm strolling through George's feed one day and he posted a clip of him beating someone and I look at the comments

Lex Fridman (16:45.600)

And I'm with this in mind. I'm like George is the nicest person of all time

Lex Fridman (16:48.840)

and if you look at the comments, it's like 10,000 comments and like

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (16:52.960)

9,000 and 900 are just people calling him like all you do is lay and pray you pussy

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (16:58.240)

You suck you can't finish anybody and I'm just like I'm looking at this and I'm like people are gonna say

Lex Fridman (17:03.760)

What they're gonna say regardless, they're gonna talk shit regardless. So you may as well just say whatever you want and then just be yourself

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (17:10.480)

Is there some aspect that's I mentioned Conor McGregor. He he crossed the line with Khabib

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (17:17.000)

At least in the eyes of Khabib

Lex Fridman (17:18.520)

Is there something you ever regret about crossing a line or does that you ever feel like there's a line?

Lex Fridman (17:24.320)

Or do you just keep pushing the line?

Lex Fridman (17:26.320)

Uh, I basically play it per per person

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (17:30.160)

I just I basically fire back with like one step above what what they do. It's always plus one. Yeah. Yeah, okay

Lex Fridman (17:38.560)

So I go I usually go hard like they fire a bullet then I drop a Duke

Lex Fridman (17:42.200)

And then and then after that initial shot then we go back and forth and I'll just keep one upping them

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (17:47.800)

So, you know, there's a lot of people that love you, but there's also a lot of people that love to hate you. Yeah

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (17:53.760)

it's so like what do those people like energize you or do you just

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (18:00.520)

Or is it funny to you? Like what as an athlete as a performer? You should not think about them

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (18:05.320)

It's like a fun thing

Lex Fridman (18:06.520)

It's like it's just like a fun thing that keeps me occupied

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (18:09.320)

Like because like because most of them that like talk shit they like just say stuff that's factually incorrect

Lex Fridman (18:14.600)

So then I just argue with like actual statistics. Yeah, it's just like

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (18:19.160)

You suck or you're not gonna beat this person. I'm like, I've already submitted that guy

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (18:23.040)

Yeah, so I just it riles them up and it's just it's just a fun thing for me to do my my downtime

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (18:28.380)

Yeah, your responses are usually very factual. It's very scientific. I appreciate

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (18:33.440)

Thank you. You actually you start by talking trash, but then you respond with science. Yeah, it's great. Okay. It's good mix. That's a good mix

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (18:41.000)

I

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (18:42.500)

Mean a topic of haters are more specifically sort of doubts within yourself of doubts around you as you're coming up

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (18:49.220)

Maybe George you can comment. Oh, we're just ignoring John completely in this conversation. I

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (18:58.080)

Was gonna ask you another question, but let me just ask you on this on this topic

Lex Fridman (19:02.080)

Are there times in your life yet?

Lex Fridman (19:04.280)

You were surrounded by people that that doubted you all the time

Lex Fridman (19:08.400)

And so what is there something you could say as in by way of advice how you overcome?

Lex Fridman (19:13.360)

The doubt either yourself or others around you all the time the first time I

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (19:21.240)

Manifest my desire to become a professional

Lex Fridman (19:24.000)

Mixed martial art athlete everybody doubt me

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (19:27.360)

Just not even I'm not talking about the UFC just to become a professional fighter

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (19:31.440)

Everybody doubt me and I became a I became a professional fighter. I had few amateur fight

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (19:37.060)

I won them all then I I fought my first fight in

Lex Fridman (19:40.280)

In Montreal, I won and I became a professional

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (19:44.200)

Then I I told people that I wanted to fight in UFC. Everybody doubt me again. So it's a normal thing

Lex Fridman (19:52.520)

So I work my way up beat a few guys then I at the time Pete Spratt was

Lex Fridman (1:00:03.060)

So for example, the lion gets a lot of credit for some reason i'm not exactly sure why the king of the jungle

Lex Fridman (1:00:09.540)

well, I

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:00:10.820)

You know a lot of people told me that the lion

Lex Fridman (1:00:13.380)

for example, the tiger can

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:00:15.380)

Be a lion. Yeah, this is one of those age old debates

Lex Fridman (1:00:18.260)

It's okay. Yeah. Well in grappling in fighting it feels like some animals use

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:00:24.500)

teeth

Lex Fridman (1:00:25.540)

And some use other parts of their body also like bear actually, I don't even know how they

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:00:33.300)

They have extraordinarily powerful

Lex Fridman (1:00:35.940)

And long claws and in addition, they're powerful biters as well. So I wonder and the same with the silverback

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:00:43.060)

I don't know how much they're I love that we're having this discussion

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:00:45.700)

I think we need joe rogan for this discussion. I think so. Yeah, I think so. Um, so

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:00:50.980)

uh

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:00:51.940)

Your your question has gone in about five different. So it started with strength. Uh, and let's go back there, which is

Lex Fridman (1:01:00.100)

Do you think for for an athlete in jiu jitsu? Let's let's stick to grappling

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:01:05.060)

All right. Do you think strength strength is helpful or detrimental? Uh, i've always believed that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:01:11.220)

two things will

Lex Fridman (1:01:13.220)

Uh create whatever

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:01:15.860)

Whatever effectiveness you have in grappling those are your skill set and your attributes

Lex Fridman (1:01:22.020)

And the best athletes are those who excel in both

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:01:25.620)

um

Lex Fridman (1:01:26.820)

Don't kid yourself if someone gets twice as strong

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:01:30.980)

By some kind of magic potion they're going to be a more effective grappler if someone gets

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:01:36.100)

Twice the level of endurance that they had previously they will be a more effective grappler

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:01:40.660)

These physical attributes have a very important outcome on the uh, sorry

Lex Fridman (1:01:46.660)

A very important effect upon the outcome of matches

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:01:49.780)

Um, it's always a good thing to be stronger. It's always a good thing to have better endurance

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:01:54.100)

It's always a good thing to have better balance or whatever other attribute you throw out there. Um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:02:00.100)

Gordon's point was okay. Everyone agrees on that but there's a problem in order to build these things

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:02:06.340)

You have to carve into other elements of your training regimen and then it becomes well, which becomes more important

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:02:14.340)

increases in strength or increases in skill

Lex Fridman (1:02:18.980)

There comes a point where

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:02:21.280)

Investing in strength training starts to get diminishing returns

Lex Fridman (1:02:25.460)

I can't tell the difference between someone who bench presses

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:02:28.820)

300 pounds on the mat versus someone who bench presses 400 pounds, but that's a big difference

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:02:34.020)

That's a hundred pound difference and for an athlete to go from bench pressing 300 pounds to 400 pounds

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:02:39.700)

That would require a great deal of uh of training effort and focus

Lex Fridman (1:02:45.060)

But if I can't tell the difference when I grapple and then why bother?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:02:48.580)

Okay, once you get to a certain strength level

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:02:51.220)

It doesn't really help that much to go from a 400 pound bench press to a 450 pound bench press

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:02:56.580)

If that's the stage you you're really getting a diminishing in returns on your training investment

Lex Fridman (1:03:01.000)

um now skills on the other hand

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:03:05.880)

Experience far far less in terms of diminishing returns every new skill you develop

Lex Fridman (1:03:13.000)

can translate

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:03:15.000)

Very very well into big increases in performance. Look at the example of gary tonin that we talked about earlier

Lex Fridman (1:03:20.820)

investments in guillotine

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:03:23.080)

Made a significant improvement in his uh effectiveness in matches and led directly to some of his most important victories

Lex Fridman (1:03:29.740)

um

Lex Fridman (1:03:31.820)

But if he had invested the same amount of training time in

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:03:35.000)

Developing a bench press that was 25 pounds more than previously that would have had no outcome no

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:03:40.220)

Influence on the outcome of those matches

Lex Fridman (1:03:42.620)

So the question always becomes yep. Everyone acknowledges that these physical

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:03:47.100)

uh

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:03:47.980)

Attributes are important and everyone understands that becoming stronger or fitter is a desirable thing and every athlete should work on them

Lex Fridman (1:03:56.460)

The interesting question becomes okay at what point?

Lex Fridman (1:04:00.220)

Do you start to say i'm not going to be helped by further increases?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:04:05.740)

in in strength training or endurance training, um

Lex Fridman (1:04:09.660)

And my point with my athletes is in the overwhelming majority of cases

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:04:16.060)

If there's any kind of doubt invest more heavily in skill training than attribute training

Lex Fridman (1:04:21.820)

Especially once you get to a certain level on the attributes

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:04:24.460)

Well, the interesting thing that I think you should account for with strength training

Lex Fridman (1:04:29.740)

is um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:04:31.660)

There's instagram

Lex Fridman (1:04:33.740)

There's the world. It's uh, it seems to be more fun to build muscle mass

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:04:39.660)

Um, it's like an addiction that people have there's also economic elements too

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:04:43.660)

Like most people I I hate to say this but it's true. Most people are more concerned with image

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:04:50.380)

than function and uh

Lex Fridman (1:04:52.780)

Uh, it's hard to sell

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:04:56.540)

A fighter or a jiu jitsu athlete who doesn't look like one looks like fedor

Lex Fridman (1:05:01.900)

Yeah, it's a tough sell now

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:05:04.140)

You can do it in fighting and jiu jitsu because ultimately it's about whose hand is raised at the end of the match

Lex Fridman (1:05:09.740)

And you could even use it as a selling point

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:05:11.420)

You can be a guy that doesn't look like he should be winning but he is winning that is a selling point

Lex Fridman (1:05:15.980)

but if you give most people a choice between

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:05:18.380)

Looking like arnold schwarzenegger and winning matches versus looking like fedor and when he matches most people will select

Lex Fridman (1:05:25.340)

I wish I'd rather look like arnold schwarzenegger

Lex Fridman (1:05:27.980)

And so most athletes feel almost like an economic compulsion to be in good shape and in order to advance their marketability

Lex Fridman (1:05:36.460)

Yeah, nike's not going to sponsor fedor or tank abbott. Yeah tank abbott

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:05:41.820)

No

Lex Fridman (1:05:42.860)

Fedor, maybe

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:05:44.700)

Yeah, yeah, we need at the very top. There's there's something about uh aesthetic

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:05:49.660)

Like image of strength and power. It's also and also a personal thing if you look at yourself in the mirror

Lex Fridman (1:05:56.060)

Do you like what what you see? You know what I mean? Yeah, you find yourself attractive

Lex Fridman (1:06:00.380)

You know, what what can you do to make you look better?

Lex Fridman (1:06:02.700)

And I think to me to me it was something that one of the reason I work out it's also for for that

Lex Fridman (1:06:07.820)

Well, i'm sure if fedor looks in the mirror. He says I look damn good today

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:06:11.180)

Yeah, you could be too. It's also a genetic factor some people, you know, it's harder for them. I mean, yeah

Lex Fridman (1:06:18.380)

All right. So the question on training you guys john gordon train

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:06:24.620)

Often three times a day every day

Lex Fridman (1:06:27.820)

um, georgia had a different like, um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:06:32.540)

a different approach to training so like what is uh

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:06:35.740)

For for no, I don't mean that in a kind of the opposite or something. It's just not every single day

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:06:40.140)

so

Lex Fridman (1:06:41.340)

and obviously you are

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:06:44.060)

legitimately at the very top

Lex Fridman (1:06:46.540)

Uh in terms of performance accomplishment in the field. So what have you learned about?

Lex Fridman (1:06:53.020)

What it takes to train to become not just the lead but the best well, I I um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:07:00.060)

A lot of people when you say train they they see training hard. I believe you need to be very constant

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:07:06.540)

Uh, and uh, very disciplined you need to train but you don't need to train hard every day

Lex Fridman (1:07:12.940)

That's what john, uh taught me

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:07:15.500)

um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:07:16.460)

For me is the nervous system. Sometimes I feel if I load it up too much it comes to a point that you're

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:07:23.100)

It's too much. There is no no more information that I can absorb

Lex Fridman (1:07:27.820)

so

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:07:29.340)

Uh, and I do believe that it's something that you can train to your the capacity your capacity of being able to learn of

Lex Fridman (1:07:37.640)

absorbing certain thing

Lex Fridman (1:07:39.660)

and uh, I did a lot of volume of training but when I when I

Lex Fridman (1:07:44.460)

Was getting ready for a fight, especially during sparring day

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:07:48.780)

I like to do it quick because my when I fight it's five round of five minutes

Lex Fridman (1:07:53.820)

I don't like to to spend

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:07:56.060)

um

Lex Fridman (1:07:58.060)

uh an hour or two hours in a gym because

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:08:02.780)

I need to know how hard I can be

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:08:05.660)

Going for 25 minutes, you know when I not for two hours for 25 minutes and at my last fight

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:08:12.700)

john and I we we we

Lex Fridman (1:08:15.820)

We were thinking of how could we

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:08:19.100)

make me more

Lex Fridman (1:08:20.460)

uh

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:08:21.580)

Of a better finisher, you know more opportunists

Lex Fridman (1:08:24.300)

And then john I remember we we when we were training with gordon jake shill came gary tonin

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:08:30.940)

my round of grappling were different than if I would be training for uh

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:08:36.220)

Abu dhabi, you know for for abi or like some like in grappling the round or longer but

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:08:42.940)

in a mixed martial art fight

Lex Fridman (1:08:45.500)

it's very rare that you're gonna spend

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:08:48.140)

more than

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:08:50.140)

Four minutes or four minutes and a half on the ground. It's it's very unlikely. I mean it could it can happen but

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:08:56.380)

so

Lex Fridman (1:08:57.180)

I

Lex Fridman (1:08:57.900)

Do you remember we did the round three minutes? We did all the round I was doing were three minute round

Lex Fridman (1:09:03.340)

So it gives a different

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:09:05.420)

Uh rhythm to the training it forced me to be more opportunist

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:09:10.460)

To be more of a finisher because I had only three minutes to to do what I needed to do

Lex Fridman (1:09:14.940)

So if I if I see something I need to to go for the kill right away. I cannot be too over patient

Lex Fridman (1:09:20.140)

You know what? I mean?

Lex Fridman (1:09:21.580)

And it it served me well in my last fight and I think it that's a good blueprint to follow

Lex Fridman (1:09:27.900)

um when you're a mixed martial art fighter, I if I would if

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:09:32.220)

the result was great and I think

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:09:36.220)

Maybe I should have done that before it was a great great idea that we had not to do

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:09:41.020)

Be very careful on doing too much volume

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:09:43.100)

Yes, try to get out and then try to focus on finishing and getting getting out as quickly as possible

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:09:49.020)

To build up your foundation. I believe you need a lot of volume

Lex Fridman (1:09:52.860)

But when you get ready for a competition, you need some to be something that replicate

Lex Fridman (1:09:58.700)

What you're gonna be facing? What do you what are we talking about? What do you think?

Lex Fridman (1:10:03.180)

Like is there rest days five days a week?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:10:06.140)

Twice a day once a day. Is there any one formula like that? I don't know

Lex Fridman (1:10:09.660)

This this I don't I do not believe in overtraining. I believe in under arrest

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:10:14.940)

I believe

Lex Fridman (1:10:17.660)

You can be under arrest and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:10:20.540)

people

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:10:21.900)

Always link that immediately to the volume of their how much volume they they train

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:10:27.980)

Which it could be something else. How are you feeling? I'm emotionally. Are you you having uh,

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:10:33.740)

Problems, uh personal problem. Do you have a have a hard time sleeping because you have a like someone died or I don't know

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:10:41.420)

Like you you hold money you're broke or what like, you know what I mean could be anything

Lex Fridman (1:10:46.860)

There is something that can affect you psychologically or emotionally

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:10:51.420)

That made it in a way that you cannot sleep. Well because your your stress your cortisol level is high

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:10:57.420)

You're you know what? I mean all these factors need to be take taken in consideration. It's not only about the volume of training people

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:11:05.100)

always think

Lex Fridman (1:11:06.300)

The volume of the training is the only thing that can affect

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:11:11.000)

Recuperation which is not you know. Yeah, you have to minimize the amount of stress from all kinds of factors

Lex Fridman (1:11:16.460)

It's a very stressful job to be a professional

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:11:19.580)

combat athlete whether you're a grappler a boxer a kickboxer a fighter and you need to be taking

Lex Fridman (1:11:27.100)

as a

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:11:28.300)

Into account is it more or less stressful than marriage? Just kidding

Lex Fridman (1:11:33.180)

Uh next question, uh

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:11:37.260)

So, I don't know how to ask this question given what george just said but you're training three times a day

Lex Fridman (1:11:45.020)

And finishing

Lex Fridman (1:11:47.020)

And what what have you learned about what what brings out the best in you as as the elite level grappler?

Lex Fridman (1:11:53.420)

Um, so over the recent years have actually changed it up a little bit

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:11:57.100)

um when I was

Lex Fridman (1:11:59.180)

Coming up through from white to black belt

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:12:02.460)

Uh, I felt that the volume was the most important so it would be anywhere from like three

Lex Fridman (1:12:09.100)

To seven sessions a day

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:12:11.100)

Um going from school to school from new york to new jersey. Um, and I think that the volume was very important to build the skills

Lex Fridman (1:12:19.180)

um where I just

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:12:21.180)

Didn't know how to move my body at purple belt the way that I should. Um, so I think that building the skills

Lex Fridman (1:12:26.540)

Is uh is super important. I think that early on volume is very important

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:12:31.180)

Uh now that I already have the skills built. I think that acquiring more knowledge is the most important

Lex Fridman (1:12:36.620)

Um, so I think that the volume is the most important

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:12:38.940)

Is the most important um, so I find that if I do

Lex Fridman (1:12:43.180)

So many sessions a day like if I do three sessions a day

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:12:46.540)

Um, I feel sometimes by the third session i'm just like so mentally like there's just there's so much information

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:12:53.020)

That's went through my head the first two sessions that I feel like i'm not even there mentally on the third session

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:12:57.900)

Um, so I feel like doing less volume now

Lex Fridman (1:13:01.260)

But having more mental clarity per session is more important because I already have the foundational skills acquired

Lex Fridman (1:13:07.100)

So a lot of your training is almost like

Lex Fridman (1:13:09.740)

Just thinking like learning a lot of it. Yeah, so i'll do like

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:13:14.220)

I mean our schedule has been messed up since the pandemic because henzos got shut down

Lex Fridman (1:13:18.460)

And they were using a french gym in puerto rico and now we're using a french gym in our and in austin

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:13:23.820)

Um, but once we have our own school

Lex Fridman (1:13:25.180)

We'll have a setup schedule where I can pretty much just be there all day long

Lex Fridman (1:13:28.620)

But right now I do like a lifting session in the morning and then i'll come in and help teach

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:13:32.460)

At henzos, so i'm there mentally i'm seeing what's going on and i'm playing around with ideas in my head

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:13:38.860)

Uh, and then i'm there physically and very sharp mentally for the competition class during the 1 p.m

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:13:44.300)

Session and then after that i'll go home i'll rest and get ready for the next day

Lex Fridman (1:13:51.100)

What have you learned on seeing all these different athletes is there a

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:13:54.780)

A universal rule that applies or is it um, athlete specific? Yeah, uh, first one thing

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:14:01.020)

It needs to be addressed is that george and gordon play very different sports with very different athletic demands

Lex Fridman (1:14:09.260)

Gordon can be in matches that range from anywhere from six

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:14:13.500)

minutes to literally hours long

Lex Fridman (1:14:16.540)

um as a result, uh the overall

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:14:20.940)

Pacing and intensity of matches is massively different most obviously there is no striking in gordon's sport

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:14:28.060)

Um striking by its very nature is a much more explosive physical action than grappling is grappling is primarily an isometric

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:14:36.460)

kind of uh sport based around isometric tension and endurance

Lex Fridman (1:14:40.540)

um george's sport is

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:14:43.660)

It does feature a significant amount of isometric tension, but

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:14:47.500)

The majority of it is based around explosion. So the physical demands of the two sports are radically different

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:14:52.940)

different in addition the time of application is is radically different

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:14:58.780)

George raised a very interesting point his matches seem long 25 minutes for a championship match

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:15:04.620)

Um, but always understand it

Lex Fridman (1:15:07.900)

It makes martial arts fight

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:15:10.060)

at championship level

Lex Fridman (1:15:11.820)

if it goes the distance is really

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:15:14.780)

five five minute matches each round

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:15:17.740)

Is a match in itself and that's exactly how you're scored. You're scored by who wins the most matches over five matches

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:15:25.420)

As a result the application of the techniques, especially the grappling techniques has to be done at a certain pace as george pointed out

Lex Fridman (1:15:33.660)

realistically

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:15:34.940)

the maximum application time you're going to get in most situations is somewhere between

Lex Fridman (1:15:40.700)

15 seconds and three minutes

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:15:42.860)

Even for a specialized grappler like damien meyer. There's still a significant part of each round which is

Lex Fridman (1:15:48.940)

Spent in set up time to actually get the match to the ground

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:15:53.420)

Um, it's very likely that at some point your opponent will stand up out of grappling and you'll have to reinitiate the entire process again

Lex Fridman (1:16:00.140)

So that even for specialized grapplers, you might be spending only three minutes out of a five minute round

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:16:06.460)

Uh on the ground and as a result, you've got to get your work done in a very short time frame

Lex Fridman (1:16:13.500)

gordon ryan

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:16:14.940)

Once it goes to the ground and it can go to the ground because he chooses to sit to the ground

Lex Fridman (1:16:19.740)

Uh may spend the entire match in ground positions. Um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:16:25.500)

As a result the matches have completely different pacing and completely different physical demands and the preparation that the two athletes go through will reflect that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:16:33.020)

If george saint pierre in training for mixed martial arts becomes fatigued to a point

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:16:39.020)

Where he's no longer physically effective and able to defend himself the consequences for that in mma training can be very deep and deep

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:16:47.180)

Okay, if you make a mistake in mixed martial arts because you're fatigued and tired and you take a full power roundhouse kick to the head

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:16:54.540)

That's some deep consequences. A grappler doesn't have to face that you can be completely

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:16:59.500)

Exhausted and grappling and just sit in the bottom of the mountain. Just practice just survival skills

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:17:03.580)

We just don't get submitted from bottom out and that can still be an effective training session

Lex Fridman (1:17:08.380)

complete and utter physical breakdown and fatigue can be

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:17:12.940)

Can end an athlete's career in mixed martial arts

Lex Fridman (1:17:16.140)

the consequences of

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:17:18.460)

training through fatigue and mma

Lex Fridman (1:17:21.580)

Potentially very deep and very disturbing

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:17:23.580)

Um, the consequences of training through complete physical exhaustion and grappling aren't really that severe

Lex Fridman (1:17:30.060)

Okay, you just tap whenever there's a problem just tap

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:17:32.620)

Um, and so they're very very different sports in the way you you prepare for them

Lex Fridman (1:17:39.260)

And a grappling

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:17:41.260)

Athlete like gordon ryan, we can take

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:17:44.060)

Many more liberties with physical exhaustion and the amount of hours a day you spend training

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:17:49.420)

Than you could with a mixed martial arts athlete like that should be a benefit. Uh exhaustion as a

Lex Fridman (1:17:55.820)

As a framework of learning so like from a place of exhaustion

Lex Fridman (1:18:00.540)

Is there any benefit to the you on the you said being at the bottom of mouth sort of understanding?

Lex Fridman (1:18:06.540)

Jiu jitsu or grappling somehow deeper because you're physically absolutely

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:18:10.780)

Absolutely, because then the only thing you have left in your favor is the training and the training

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:18:15.900)

Absolutely, because then the only thing you have left in your favor is your technique and then you'll see how technical you are

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:18:22.540)

In addition you'll get to explore realms inside your mind that we don't spend a lot of time in

Lex Fridman (1:18:28.860)

And you'll learn a lot about yourself and your ability to endure which will

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:18:33.340)

have uh

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:18:34.780)

Potentially great benefits in similar situations and matches. Yeah, there's uh, I mean for me for a recreational person

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:18:42.220)

getting

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:18:43.720)

Exhaustion allows you the great benefit to experience what it feels like to really get dominated

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:18:49.340)

At an even greater frequency than you otherwise would

Lex Fridman (1:18:53.500)

And there's something there. There's some animalistic thing. That's very unpleasant

Lex Fridman (1:18:57.740)

and then afterwards it takes you to a nice to a place of

Lex Fridman (1:19:01.580)

like, um humility and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:19:04.540)

I don't know you get it forces you to rethink life

Lex Fridman (1:19:08.060)

in positive ways

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:19:09.660)

There's something about dominance. It can mean if you get dominated a few times you can uh, rationalize it somehow

Lex Fridman (1:19:17.260)

You say okay

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:19:17.900)

Well, I screwed this up

Lex Fridman (1:19:19.340)

But with when you're exhausted and you have to do like 30 minutes or 40 minutes or an hour of just being dominant

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:19:25.100)

Over and over and over being submitted

Lex Fridman (1:19:27.980)

It uh, I don't know. It's it's a very good process for

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:19:32.300)

For other avenues of life I find it's I can't explain why because i'm i'm

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:19:37.820)

uh driving home crying afterwards listening to bruce springsteen, but afterwards

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:19:45.260)

yeah, this

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:19:46.940)

Afterwards somehow you can think clearer you can see clear about what is the right path through life in all walks of life

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:19:53.580)

Like relationships work, but also the grappling

Lex Fridman (1:19:57.740)

Actually, the grappling is the hardest one to see what you have to do

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:20:01.660)

It clarifies other avenues the humility. It's the it removes the bullshit

Lex Fridman (1:20:05.820)

It's like we see

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:20:07.820)

The world through some kind of fog and it just removes it and now you can see things clearly. I don't know what that is

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:20:14.220)

I think I think it's important like you mentioned to push yourself like sometimes

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:20:18.940)

to see

Lex Fridman (1:20:20.140)

How far you can go because sometimes you you can go further than where you think and it can boost your confidence

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:20:25.980)

You know, you can push yourself through a certain limit

Lex Fridman (1:20:29.100)

And maybe you thought your limit were was before that point and you push through it

Lex Fridman (1:20:33.660)

But like john just mentioned

Lex Fridman (1:20:36.300)

It's a risky thing to do in

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:20:38.920)

Striking because if you're exhausted you're gonna get brain damage

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:20:43.180)

In grappling it's you know, you tap if something wrong, but you can do it also in strength conditioning

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:20:48.700)

I like to run track. I do it all the time and track and feel

Lex Fridman (1:20:52.220)

it it helps me to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:20:54.300)

To to know myself better. I think it's important. It's a it's a good point

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:20:58.620)

It's like it's like the scrimmage wrestling rounds we do. It's like, you know, if you stop moving

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:21:03.340)

That you're gonna get scored on and you know in your mind like there's no mechanical reason

Lex Fridman (1:21:08.380)

Why I am why I should give up a score here, but you're so exhausted that you're like, oh man, this is terrible

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:21:14.140)

If I if I stop moving i'm a pussy

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:21:17.660)

If I don't stop move if I don't stop moving i'm gonna be twice as exhausted when we actually do stand up

Lex Fridman (1:21:21.660)

So it's uh, it's an interesting game. You have to play inside your mind. It's it's your

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:21:25.100)

That keep you that keep you uh sharp, you know what I mean? Because you just want to lay down and beat it

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:21:31.820)

Because you're completely exhausted, you know

Lex Fridman (1:21:35.180)

What do you think uh is the connection john between this ego pride thing?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:21:41.000)

Martial arts and actual violence in our with our ancestors. Do you think

Lex Fridman (1:21:47.580)

You ever plug into that? Do you think that's a good thing?

Lex Fridman (1:21:50.300)

With our ancestors. Do you think you ever plug into that?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:21:54.700)

You think there's echoes of something going on there or like you mentioned you have flaws and demons

Lex Fridman (1:22:00.140)

Is it deep in there somewhere? Do you think we're struggling with those demons?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:22:04.860)

Yeah, uh, you'll need to patch up your question a little bit though. It's going to say we're different donations. Wow, that was

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:22:11.500)

Not only might be dominating just I mean dominating interviewing. No, no, no, but i'm not

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:22:15.900)

Patched up that question. Uh, it's not brother seeing where they're like, okay now we interview you

Lex Fridman (1:22:21.420)

But you you went down the evolution

Lex Fridman (1:22:24.700)

I mean, do you think do you um, I don't mean just the line between what is what is martial arts and what is violence?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:22:31.420)

I mean there there seems to be a gray area

Lex Fridman (1:22:34.220)

And that connects us to the the evolutionary ancestors. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I think there's a deep

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:22:42.280)

recognition in all of us that

Lex Fridman (1:22:44.380)

um, and this is

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:22:46.860)

The evidence for this is is so easy to uh to see in in in daily life. Um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:22:54.700)

If you're walking down the street and suddenly you hear a commotion and two people are fighting

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:23:01.180)

You will see literally everyone on that street stop whatever they're doing and watch the fight

Lex Fridman (1:23:08.140)

Humans are fascinated by violence

Lex Fridman (1:23:14.380)

And you've got to ask yourself why and of course, it's a recognition that for a significant part of our evolutionary history

Lex Fridman (1:23:23.580)

Violence was one of the most important elements in human existence

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:23:29.100)

As much as we curse it as much as we talk badly of it. Um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:23:34.060)

Um, the juxtaposition between humans social nature and their their need to for each other to get along and to express

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:23:43.500)

love amongst the

Lex Fridman (1:23:45.100)

the various members of a given community

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:23:47.820)

there are

Lex Fridman (1:23:49.660)

Disputes between humans that can't be resolved and ultimately

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:23:53.740)

throughout history violence has been the number one method of

Lex Fridman (1:23:57.900)

conflict resolution

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:23:59.660)

um for better or for worse and there's a recognition in all of us that

Lex Fridman (1:24:06.060)

This is where we come from and there's a reason why

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:24:10.300)

combat sports have this

Lex Fridman (1:24:12.620)

thing where

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:24:13.740)

People will watch them and they might even be repulsed by them, but they find it difficult to take their eyes from it

Lex Fridman (1:24:19.500)

and um, uh

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:24:22.940)

I do believe that most combat athletes carry that sense

Lex Fridman (1:24:27.660)

of their

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:24:29.180)

even if it's on a subconscious level this kind of belief that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:24:34.140)

This is who we are. Um george used the word pride and I believe that's a big part of it. I believe that um,

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:24:43.500)

Most

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:24:44.860)

Humans have this sense of self worth and pride which they're willing to fight for

Lex Fridman (1:24:49.420)

And uh, if it gets crossed by someone else they're willing to stand that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:24:54.060)

Some people will stand more early and some people will be pushed further back, but everyone's got that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:24:58.460)

That line beyond which they won't be pushed

Lex Fridman (1:25:01.820)

And there's some kind of deep recognition in all of us that we have that somewhere within us

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:25:07.020)

No matter how hard we try to bury it or what have you

Lex Fridman (1:25:10.140)

And that's why I believe there will always be this eternal

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:25:13.260)

interest in combat sports

Lex Fridman (1:25:17.340)

Now

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:25:18.460)

I don't believe that most people today have any kind of respect for unrestricted violence or

Lex Fridman (1:25:25.240)

non consensual violence

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:25:27.240)

um, I think most people most good people are repulsed by that now i'm

Lex Fridman (1:25:32.520)

I'm sure that as humanity

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:25:35.000)

Improves out into the future that will become more and more widespread

Lex Fridman (1:25:39.000)

but

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:25:40.120)

That's not to say we we can't exercise these these

Lex Fridman (1:25:44.520)

old evolutionary demons inside of us and um, uh and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:25:50.360)

sometimes there are just disputes between different people different cultures different nations where

Lex Fridman (1:25:55.480)

ultimately it's going to come to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:25:58.520)

Into into a shoving match and that will degenerate further into violence. There's always going to be

Lex Fridman (1:26:03.640)

a need for humans to be able to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:26:06.600)

to

Lex Fridman (1:26:07.720)

express themselves

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:26:09.800)

Through violent methods and to use physical force to get to their their goals and objectives

Lex Fridman (1:26:15.640)

um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:26:16.760)

our

Lex Fridman (1:26:18.600)

Our need as humans is always to find a balance between

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:26:22.040)

The two forces of conflict and cooperation

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:26:26.040)

We need cooperation because humans isolated from each other are more or less helpless and useless

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:26:32.360)

uh in order to

Lex Fridman (1:26:34.360)

advance human communities need to build and grow

Lex Fridman (1:26:37.880)

And so that sense of cooperation

Lex Fridman (1:26:40.680)

occurs in most of our daily lives

Lex Fridman (1:26:43.160)

But there will also be irresolvable conflicts where physical force has to be used to to form a resolution

Lex Fridman (1:26:49.800)

more resolution and so most human beings find themselves

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:26:53.640)

swinging like a pendulum between conflict and cooperation

Lex Fridman (1:26:57.320)

and um, uh, and that is something which

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:27:02.760)

Really gives birth I think to combat sports because sorry. I really have to ask you about this then. There's a guy even harvard

Lex Fridman (1:27:10.440)

uh named richard rangham

Lex Fridman (1:27:12.680)

And there's a lot of people that believe this he wrote this book that um

Lex Fridman (1:27:16.360)

Um, basically, there's a lot of people studying is what happened? How did we get from apes to humans?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:27:21.960)

Like what was the magic thing? Right a lot of people attributed to fire and ability to cook meat

Lex Fridman (1:27:28.040)

There's a lot of different theories

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:27:29.960)

so

Lex Fridman (1:27:30.920)

he actually um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:27:34.680)

His theory

Lex Fridman (1:27:36.360)

How do I describe this is basically that that the beta males won?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:27:41.240)

that the the

Lex Fridman (1:27:43.240)

the

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:27:44.200)

Apes that were able to cooperate so you though the way you develop cooperation is that there's a big bad leader

Lex Fridman (1:27:52.920)

that uh, the the alpha male

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:27:55.960)

that you can only

Lex Fridman (1:27:57.640)

um knock off their throne if you cooperate

Lex Fridman (1:28:01.320)

And so we build big tribes that just excel the cooperation by practicing the overthrowing the leader

Lex Fridman (1:28:07.960)

and so and anytime an alpha male would rise up they would get would we would uh

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:28:13.880)

Develop our skill further and further of cooperation

Lex Fridman (1:28:16.920)

And so we're all just beta males, uh, the descendants of beta males

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:28:21.160)

that's this uh kind of theory that cooperation is fundamental and it's so distinct to the the rest of the

Lex Fridman (1:28:28.120)

neighboring animal kingdom

Lex Fridman (1:28:30.360)

So fascinating. I wonder what you think about this tension of violence of cooperation

Lex Fridman (1:28:35.000)

And how important is this cooperation to the core of yeah, uh who if you you can look at it in the uh,

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:28:42.120)

in a given training room, um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:28:45.000)

Jiu jitsu and mixed martial arts is solo sports a solo athlete steps into the cage or steps onto the mat

Lex Fridman (1:28:51.480)

but all of your preparation is done in a cooperative training environment with many peers and

Lex Fridman (1:28:58.200)

Uh as much as it's an individual sport

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:29:00.760)

All of your preparation is done in as part of a group. Um

Lex Fridman (1:29:07.000)

There's a sense in which uh

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:29:09.080)

That's an interesting metaphor for humanity itself everything we do in life. We do alone, but we grow up in this

Lex Fridman (1:29:15.960)

Given community and and what have you?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:29:18.520)

um

Lex Fridman (1:29:21.880)

With regards to the the whole alpha male beta male thing, um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:29:26.600)

Humans are it's true. This fellow's correct. We you know, most

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:29:31.960)

Primates do have very strongly defined alpha males who rule the roost and determine the entire direction of the um, uh,

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:29:41.400)

of of uh

Lex Fridman (1:29:43.720)

The community they they build around themselves

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:29:46.680)

um

Lex Fridman (1:29:48.440)

Humans on the other hand

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:29:50.440)

Don't have an alpha male in that strict biological sense of someone who's

Lex Fridman (1:29:55.480)

Responsible for the next generation dominates all the female population, etc

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:30:01.400)

Physically dominates, but we do on the other hand have our own version of alpha males insofar as we have political and sociological

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:30:09.320)

Leaders who have a disproportionate impact on the direction of a of a community. Um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:30:17.400)

uh, so was the cooperation allowed us to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:30:20.280)

To have a greater scale of hierarchy with the alpha male on top or the alpha creature on top. Yeah. Yeah

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:30:27.480)

No, that's a fascinating theory

Lex Fridman (1:30:31.320)

In in nature, we're we're very weak as a species

Lex Fridman (1:30:35.080)

So we needed to cooperate cooperate in order to to evolve that I think

Lex Fridman (1:30:41.400)

Made us uh, the the top of the food chain if you look at um,

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:30:45.880)

Humanity in in nature, really the two things that seem to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:30:52.520)

More than anything else determine whether or not a given human community will be

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:30:58.100)

Successful in a predatory world are numbers and technology

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:31:02.520)

Okay, the more your numbers increase and the the higher the technology of the weapons and support systems you have around you the more successful

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:31:09.640)

You'll be in a predatory world

Lex Fridman (1:31:11.640)

um, so it's not clear that just killing off the idea of an alpha male was the

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:31:18.280)

The the single biggest thing. Um, the rise of technology

Lex Fridman (1:31:23.000)

Uh and the growth of community

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:31:25.080)

After the imposition of language, these are other things that would have been

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:31:28.920)

Very very important factors and and humanity's rise george. You made an interesting point if you look at humans

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:31:35.400)

Just the raw material of humans. We're we're

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:31:37.400)

We're fucking pathetic. We did and a predatory animal kingdom. We're just the absolute bottom of the food chain

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:31:44.920)

Um, we don't have a single

Lex Fridman (1:31:47.460)

effective

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:31:48.840)

Weapon other than better than average endurance. That's about it

Lex Fridman (1:31:52.600)

um

Lex Fridman (1:31:53.640)

But you put us in a community who can talk to each other with language and give us the time

Lex Fridman (1:31:59.320)

To come up with technological advances such as metal

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:32:03.160)

um, and suddenly a human will go from no combat effectiveness in the animal kingdom to a

Lex Fridman (1:32:10.280)

A human armed with a simple metal tip spear can kill

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:32:14.520)

damn near any animal in the uh,

Lex Fridman (1:32:16.920)

In the animal kingdom and working as a group

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:32:19.480)

I'll beat your silver back. You know how i'll fight him in a deep water pool because he cannot swim

Lex Fridman (1:32:26.120)

So I don't have to touch him

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:32:28.200)

You'll be in a

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:32:29.720)

Because he cannot swim so I don't have to touch him you'll drown and I'll get him into the pool

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:32:35.640)

You know why because someone told me because we live in a community someone told me that information. So I know he passed it on to me

Lex Fridman (1:32:42.680)

Yeah, he taught you

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:32:44.760)

Well, you have to convince him to you have to somehow convince them to join you in the pool, which is very difficult

Lex Fridman (1:32:50.760)

It's very problem. Very very difficult. Um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:32:55.480)

From a

Lex Fridman (1:32:56.600)

technical perspective john you've looked at

Lex Fridman (1:33:00.360)

Martial arts fighting in general and grappling. What's the difference between fighting and grappling?

Lex Fridman (1:33:05.480)

That's something i'd love to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:33:07.480)

Ask all of you. Maybe john you can start like, um, well, uh when you talk about fighting you mean unrestricted

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:33:14.760)

Uh mma top type fighting. Yeah, it's funny. You said unrestricted mma type fight mma type fighting

Lex Fridman (1:33:21.240)

So there's there's this street fighting. Yep. Yeah, there's mma fighting and then there's grappling

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:33:27.560)

It's really the sport of grappling. You're saying okay. What's the difference between mma and grappling? Yes. Okay

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:33:32.360)

Um, see that would have been a much better question to ask. Um, well the uh, uh the single

Lex Fridman (1:33:39.000)

When you talk about grappling you're talking about jujitsu rules or yeah

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:33:42.440)

I mean you could maybe also mention different rule sets that somehow fundamentally challenge change the sport, you know

Lex Fridman (1:33:48.600)

Um in the sport of mixed martial arts

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:33:51.880)

uh

Lex Fridman (1:33:53.160)

You've got two

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:33:55.640)

Ways to inflict damage on the human body. You've you've got kinetic energy which is done through striking

Lex Fridman (1:34:01.960)

kicking knees elbows fists, um

Lex Fridman (1:34:05.160)

and you've got

Lex Fridman (1:34:06.680)

uh isometric tension used along the lines of

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:34:11.240)

lever and fulcrum

Lex Fridman (1:34:12.840)

Which can be used for strangulation and and joint breaking

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:34:15.800)

um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:34:17.720)

In grappling you lose one of those you're no longer allowed to hurt your opponent with kinetic energy

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:34:22.360)

you can do it accidentally through a throw, but you're not allowed to just

Lex Fridman (1:34:26.280)

You know knock someone out with a throw in most grappling sports it can happen

Lex Fridman (1:34:29.880)

But it's relatively rare and it's it's not encouraged by the rule set

Lex Fridman (1:34:33.880)

so

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:34:37.640)

Yeah, you got close, um, uh, so

Lex Fridman (1:34:40.920)

So there's a sense in which in mixed martial arts you got twice as many problems to deal with and um, uh, and they occur

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:34:49.720)

in

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:34:51.240)

A much shorter time frame the single biggest difference between grappling technique as a weapon

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:34:58.200)

In human combat versus striking technique is time

Lex Fridman (1:35:01.800)

Grappling technique takes a huge amount of time to apply

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:35:05.640)

Okay

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:35:06.440)

The great advantage of grappling technique is certainty of outcome once you get there

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:35:11.720)

It takes a huge amount of time to set up a takedown

Lex Fridman (1:35:16.200)

Physically take them down

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:35:18.280)

Work their way work your way towards a dominant position culminating in your opponent's back and then apply a strangle hold

Lex Fridman (1:35:25.000)

that's a long chain of events as opposed to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:35:30.840)

A strong punch or kick which can take

Lex Fridman (1:35:33.000)

A quarter of a second an application from start to finish and the match is over

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:35:37.800)

um

Lex Fridman (1:35:39.240)

and so

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:35:40.360)

there's a sense in which uh grappling is is it's

Lex Fridman (1:35:46.600)

It's fighting for the patient and the calculating

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:35:50.520)

Whereas striking is much more for

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:35:54.440)

In this short time frame where everything gets done in the in the blink of an eye

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:35:59.080)

There's a sense also which grappling is a much more forgiving sport. You can make a terrible mistake

Lex Fridman (1:36:05.880)

End up in a terrible position and still fight your way out and win

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:36:10.920)

In mixed martial arts, it's much much less forgiving

Lex Fridman (1:36:16.200)

If you get hit and stunned your chances of recovery

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:36:19.800)

Are minimal you're going to get swarmed on and unless it's right at the end of the round you it's very very hard to recover

Lex Fridman (1:36:26.440)

From getting hit and swarmed on. Um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:36:30.520)

uh, so there's a sense in which

Lex Fridman (1:36:33.000)

The biggest difference between them is time of application of technique

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:36:36.440)

Uh in mixed martial arts, it's incredibly unforgiving in terms of time

Lex Fridman (1:36:41.160)

Even the smallest error can have the deepest consequences

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:36:44.920)

In grappling you can make massive errors and still come back and win

Lex Fridman (1:36:49.000)

um grappling will typically be won

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:36:51.560)

In a much higher percentage case by the more skilled and conditioned grappler. Whereas there is

Lex Fridman (1:37:00.760)

much more of what they call a punches chance in mixed martial arts where

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:37:06.600)

There's a much higher likelihood of a lesser athlete

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:37:09.780)

Defeating a greater athlete in mma than there is in grappling simply because of time of application of the techniques

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:37:16.360)

Even the smallest period of inattention

Lex Fridman (1:37:18.540)

In mma and the match is over gordon ryan could fall asleep for 30 seconds

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:37:24.460)

Have his opponent mounted on and wake up and finish him five minutes later. It's not going to happen in mma

Lex Fridman (1:37:30.700)

Okay, so the the stakes are much higher

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:37:33.260)

You can do a lot of damage in a very small amount of time and just the dynamic temporal dynamics of how things happen

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:37:38.220)

Is very different everything you'll see will be a reflection of that then you go further into things like rule sets

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:37:44.060)

In the sport of grappling if gordon ryan comes out and sits down in the middle of the mat

Lex Fridman (1:37:49.820)

His opponent must follow him to the ground and engage

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:37:54.700)

in mixed martial arts

Lex Fridman (1:37:56.380)

If you come to the center of the cage and sit down

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:37:59.580)

The other guy can just walk away from you. They're completely

Lex Fridman (1:38:03.100)

Oriented in different directions grappling is ground centered

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:38:06.460)

Mma is typically standing centered at the beginning of every round you have to start standing again

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:38:11.260)

If I disengage from a ground grappling situation stand up and walk away from my opponent

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:38:17.500)

My opponent must follow me up to the feet

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:38:20.780)

In grappling it's the exact opposite. If I sit to the ground my opponent must follow me to the ground

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:38:25.900)

It's written into the rule set and so one is inherently ground or oriented and one is inherently standing oriented

Lex Fridman (1:38:31.980)

So it's more it's more difficult to dictate where the fight happens in mixed martial arts

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:38:35.820)

Yes, you have to be able to impose where the fight is whereas in grappling you can simply choose it. So

Lex Fridman (1:38:42.380)

George, what is uh your sense of the the difference in terms of how you approached it?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:38:47.740)

Uh between the two sports so you also are a student of wrestling and grappling so in preparing for fights

Lex Fridman (1:38:56.780)

What parts of grappling purely the sport that you have to leave behind

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:39:02.060)

well, I I uh

Lex Fridman (1:39:03.740)

I'm, very lucky. I had the opportunity to I train with I consider the best

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:39:09.340)

mentor trainer I ever ever had

Lex Fridman (1:39:12.140)

and I have

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:39:13.820)

Some of the best grapplers that I can train with they were they were there to help me through my career

Lex Fridman (1:39:20.460)

so

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:39:21.980)

uh for my training is

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:39:24.700)

Of course because I do not dedicate as much time in one specific area. It's hard to be

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:39:30.460)

You know a world class athlete and that in in only one particular area always

Lex Fridman (1:39:36.380)

for me

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:39:37.900)

Like the idea to be more well rounded to be very competent in every of those areas striking grappling

Lex Fridman (1:39:46.140)

Take downs and and all those areas then being just very good at one

Lex Fridman (1:39:52.540)

And not as good at as as others, you know, because I like the idea that

Lex Fridman (1:39:57.820)

It gives me more option when I fight someone I can

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:40:02.940)

Mold myself to become the perfect nemesis to a that person better if i'm more well rounded

Lex Fridman (1:40:09.500)

If I do not have those well rounded skill

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:40:13.740)

I don't have that option, you know

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:40:16.700)

You have less tools to work with less technology. What about you gordon? What um,

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:40:21.020)

You know, what do you think is very distinct about grappling in the way you approach it versus fighting? I think most of it was covered

Lex Fridman (1:40:27.580)

But I think that the the one one of the big things is the fact that when you're looking at mma

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:40:33.660)

You have a pretty general agreed upon and unified rule set where if you look at ufc versus bellator

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:40:40.060)

They're they have slight differences in the rules maybe um, but it's pretty much the same thing

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:40:45.100)

Whereas in grappling you have ebi rules, then you have adcc rules. You have ibgf rules. You have no time limit rules

Lex Fridman (1:40:51.900)

um, and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:40:53.020)

Each rule set will play to the skills of different athletes. Um, if you have if you do adcc rules

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:41:00.060)

Uh, it generally is slightly biased towards wrestlers or if they can stall to the overtime

Lex Fridman (1:41:05.100)

And then hit a takedown in the overtime and not really doing jiu jitsu, but they score a takedown. They're gonna win

Lex Fridman (1:41:10.940)

Whereas if you have like a jiu jitsu

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:41:12.700)

Takedown they're gonna win whereas if you have like an ebi for example

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:41:16.540)

You have to finish the guy in regulation or you start in a jiu jitsu position with your back taken or in an armbar

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:41:23.100)

um, so I think that you have

Lex Fridman (1:41:25.820)

certain rule sets that play in the favor of certain athletes, um and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:41:32.220)

Certain athletes can win in one rule set, but then they just have no chance of winning in the other

Lex Fridman (1:41:36.940)

Like when I fought yuri the first time in ebi

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:41:38.940)

I beat him in ebi the chances of me beating him on that night under an adcc rule set were probably pretty low

Lex Fridman (1:41:45.100)

Um when I fought liandra low under an adcc rule set

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:41:48.300)

He beat me that day, but the chances of him beating me on the same day in an ebi rules that were like next to zero

Lex Fridman (1:41:54.700)

So I think it's interesting that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:41:56.940)

In mma you have one unified rule set which have small differences, but they're all generally the same

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:42:02.860)

um, and in jiu jitsu, you have a wide variety of different rule sets that um have

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:42:07.580)

uh

Lex Fridman (1:42:09.100)

biases towards

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:42:10.620)

a certain athlete skill sets you mentioned liandra low

Lex Fridman (1:42:14.700)

I gotta ask you again about adcc

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:42:18.540)

You have lost very very few times in your career

Lex Fridman (1:42:22.460)

Uh one

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:42:24.140)

I mean this is the same is true for george and uh, the only person who has ever submitted you is philippe penya black belt

Lex Fridman (1:42:30.700)

Yeah at black belt

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:42:32.700)

Um, he is adcc world champion multiple time abby jjf gi and no gi world champion

Lex Fridman (1:42:39.580)

You may face him adcc or elsewhere in the future

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:42:42.940)

um

Lex Fridman (1:42:43.820)

Will you beat him?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:42:45.580)

uh, yes, I mean I have to say yes, right, um, but uh

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:42:50.380)

I fought him initially when I first got my black belt, um that I fought him a year later. So 2016 and 2017

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:42:57.340)

Um, and despite what people remember about the match

Lex Fridman (1:42:59.820)

And whenever people talk about it's like oh, yeah, the guy who strangled gordon, but no one remembers that the first match was like a 45 minute

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:43:06.380)

war

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:43:07.260)

Um, and then the second match with the full 20 minutes of adcc and if I didn't get my back taken in like the last

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:43:13.660)

Minute and a half two minutes, it would have went into an overtime. Um that could change the outcome of the match

Lex Fridman (1:43:18.700)

um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:43:20.300)

I think that if you look at philippe's performances

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:43:23.740)

Especially nogi specifically nogi since then it looks like he's almost gotten worse

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:43:28.460)

Whereas since that match

Lex Fridman (1:43:31.100)

uh in 2017

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:43:33.180)

Uh, the only match I lost after that was against vinnie, uh, magalesh by by points and uh, i'm on like a 55

Lex Fridman (1:43:41.100)

match win streak

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:43:43.100)

um over the course of four years, um winning all the major tournaments nogi and uh philippe since that match I think is like five and two

Lex Fridman (1:43:51.580)

uh, nogi

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:43:52.940)

Um, and he's lost his last two match matches one was convincingly where he was dominated by andre and one was by submission

Lex Fridman (1:43:59.660)

Um, so I don't think that he's progressed nearly as fast if anything

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:44:03.740)

He looks like he's worse than he was when he beat me in 2017 based on his previous performances

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:44:08.940)

Um that being said, I know he's going to come in training very hard for this one and he's he's going to be prepared

Lex Fridman (1:44:13.660)

but I just don't think

Lex Fridman (1:44:15.980)

that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:44:16.860)

In terms of technical ability. He's anywhere near my level and um, he was much bigger than me both times

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:44:23.660)

We fought um the first time he was much bigger than me the second time. He was one weight class above me

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:44:28.780)

um, so now there's not going to be an advantage in

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:44:32.120)

Technicality and it's also not going to be a physicality advantage. So I think he's just going to be beat everywhere

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:44:40.140)

This is uh, this is a good example of the scientific response to a um,

Lex Fridman (1:44:43.900)

Um to a comment to a to a question. Yeah, so he's not um,

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:44:51.580)

That's a match you're you're not deeply concerned with

Lex Fridman (1:44:55.100)

And in terms of the set of opponents because you you have and you will be facing a lot of really difficult

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:45:01.660)

That's actually in my opinion one of the easier matches because of the fact that we're relatively the same size

Lex Fridman (1:45:06.540)

um, if I show up at 230 pounds like a lot of the guys are

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:45:10.140)

260 270 plus so that extra weight does make a difference. I think out of that entire bracket. Um,

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:45:17.440)

Felipe is probably going to be the one of the easiest matches because of the fact that I can easily take him down

Lex Fridman (1:45:21.840)

And if I take him down i'm going to pass his guard

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:45:24.080)

Whereas I feel like the other guys because they're so much bigger and they're very cagey. Um, it may take me a while to actually

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:45:31.200)

Take them to the ground. Um

Lex Fridman (1:45:33.440)

And get on top of them

Lex Fridman (1:45:34.400)

And I think it may be they may be longer drawn out matches because of the fact that they're so much bigger and

Lex Fridman (1:45:38.720)

And stally it's hard to take them down, but flea based relatively my size and as wrestling is atrocious

Lex Fridman (1:45:44.640)

So i've already taken them down in the last adcc match

Lex Fridman (1:45:47.520)

So i'm pretty sure I can just easily put them down pass them and then finish them

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:45:51.760)

Well, i'm, not sure what response I was expecting but uh, that was that was that was phrased beautifully

Lex Fridman (1:45:58.080)

um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:46:00.400)

We talked about the tiago alves fight that george had and john borrowed up in class yesterday

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:46:06.400)

I believe but the point is we're talking about wrestling and I think that that's a fascinating fight

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:46:12.400)

that um

Lex Fridman (1:46:13.920)

There's an incredible display of strategy of skill of heart

Lex Fridman (1:46:17.600)

Uh, george, could you maybe talk about that fight john? Maybe two what lessons you gained from that fight?

Lex Fridman (1:46:24.560)

Go ahead. It was you're fighting on mine

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:46:28.080)

Well, maybe it also tell what happened in terms of your injury I think third round. Oh, yeah. Um

Lex Fridman (1:46:34.240)

Um, so I was fighting tiago alves and uh in the third round I um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:46:40.320)

Tear my adductor muscle

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:46:42.560)

Um, it happened when I was on the bottom and he I think he pushed my knee down tried to pass my guard and I

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:46:47.520)

Heard a pop

Lex Fridman (1:46:49.360)

I didn't know what I think you were going for an armbar

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:46:52.080)

You were on his back you switched to armbar and he cleared the leg by pushing on your leg

Lex Fridman (1:46:56.160)

And you went in with a preexisting injury and it tore

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:46:58.880)

Yes, and and it it it get worse and and I heard a pop

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:47:04.000)

I didn't know what it was, but I know it really hurt. So I came back standing up and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:47:09.120)

there's a

Lex Fridman (1:47:10.320)

A famous video one that goes on the internet about when I go back in the corner

Lex Fridman (1:47:15.440)

And I tell my my coach i'm like, I don't know what it is. I think I tore my my my adductor muscle and

Lex Fridman (1:47:21.680)

Greg jackson is like, I don't care hit him with your groin

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:47:24.800)

I was very worried because I I wasn't pain, but I didn't know I didn't know what what I had

Lex Fridman (1:47:30.880)

So I didn't know the gravity of it and it it it plays on your mind

Lex Fridman (1:47:35.680)

So but I had to buy to bite down my mouthpiece and finish the fight, you know

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:47:39.600)

I knew I was ahead on the on the scorecard and uh, I needed to finish finish strong

Lex Fridman (1:47:45.200)

So what was your strategy there in terms of strikes in terms of wrestling so he's an

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:47:49.200)

Exceptionally difficult opponent to take down. Yeah. Well at at first I I I knew I would add a good jab a good

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:47:56.320)

You know to stay always

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:47:58.640)

From the outside, you know fight him from the outside and and use my footwork because he was like a tank

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:48:04.080)

He was much bigger and much

Lex Fridman (1:48:06.160)

stronger than me and uh

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:48:08.960)

I didn't want never wanted to stay in front of him

Lex Fridman (1:48:11.280)

So he was all the way out or all the way in and when I was coming all the way in

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:48:15.760)

It was with my uh proactive or reactive takedown where I myself

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:48:21.840)

initiated the takedown by uh, using a distraction like a jab to make it is is and goes up and then I go

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:48:29.840)

with a single double leg or uh to react like baiting him for him to come hit me and then

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:48:37.920)

While he's coming to hit me I go change level and and that's the way I like to take my time

Lex Fridman (1:48:43.600)

And that's the way I like to take my opponent down, you know some guys for example, like like uh, cabbie

Lex Fridman (1:48:49.680)

for example, he's very good at at

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:48:52.400)

Bringing his opponent to defense and use chain wrestling to to take his opponent down. I find it for me for myself. I specialize more into

Lex Fridman (1:49:00.880)

Explosive takedown in the center of the octagon because I found it

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:49:04.560)

more economical for me

Lex Fridman (1:49:08.000)

What what did you see you were you're commenting john about the wrestling

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:49:11.440)

That was that was quite interesting. I mean also, can you generally comment on the fact that george sanpia who don't I don't think you wrestled

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:49:20.480)

I wrestle I started wrestling. I was 19 years old, but I wrestled some very good russian guys. So they took me underneath their wing and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:49:27.840)

but

Lex Fridman (1:49:29.040)

My ability to cover distance

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:49:31.840)

Come from karate does not come from wrestling wrestling is how I finish once I got the leg how I finish the takedown

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:49:38.480)

Uh, so the the timing and the movement and the explosion required for this karate. Yeah

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:49:44.480)

I think an important distinction to make here is um one which george

Lex Fridman (1:49:50.240)

uh made throughout his career and I

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:49:52.720)

Believe george you were the greatest innovator in mma history

Lex Fridman (1:49:56.000)

um with regards to this

Lex Fridman (1:49:58.640)

and this is uh

Lex Fridman (1:50:00.720)

The creation of what george calls shoot boxing which is the amalgamation

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:50:05.140)

Of striking technique in george's case mostly karate because that was his martial arts background

Lex Fridman (1:50:11.380)

um into grappling and in particular takedowns

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:50:15.940)

uh

Lex Fridman (1:50:17.780)

when most people say

Lex Fridman (1:50:19.940)

So and so has better wrestling in mixed martial arts

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:50:25.140)

You have to be very careful what they mean by this there are many highly credentialed wrestlers

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:50:30.820)

In the early days of mixed martial arts who went in and truly struggled to hit a takedown

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:50:36.900)

Now these are very very good wrestlers who in a wrestling match would easily put down their opponent

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:50:43.380)

but

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:50:44.660)

In a striking situation where the ranges are completely different and the setups are entirely different

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:50:50.980)

The stances are different even the the overall conditions are different. You're no longer wearing shoes

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:50:56.980)

People underestimate just what an impact it is for a wrestler to take the shoes off

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:51:02.020)

You lose like 20 of your forward drive the minute you take off the shoes

Lex Fridman (1:51:06.180)

um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:51:07.300)

Uh, all of these make massive differences in whether or not you're going to be able to even make contact with an opponent for a takedown

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:51:16.980)

As george pointed out the true value of wrestling in mma is finishing the takedown once you've established contact

Lex Fridman (1:51:24.020)

But that's only about 20 of the action of a of a mixed martial arts takedown 80 of it is an understanding range

Lex Fridman (1:51:31.620)

rhythm setup

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:51:33.780)

opportunity, etc, etc, and

Lex Fridman (1:51:37.300)

That's not part of wrestling at all

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:51:39.060)

You're even the overall conditions are completely different in the sport of wrestling

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:51:42.740)

You start a very close range in a very bent over stance and you're expected to wrestle for

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:51:48.260)

In international stars for three minutes at a time

Lex Fridman (1:51:50.500)

Um now suddenly you're completely upright

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:51:55.300)

uh

Lex Fridman (1:51:56.340)

and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:51:57.860)

You're not wearing shoes all the conditions the the the rhythm and speed of it is different

Lex Fridman (1:52:02.740)

The counters are completely different. It's just an entirely different animal

Lex Fridman (1:52:07.860)

And so george was an early recognizer of this

Lex Fridman (1:52:11.540)

And started to put the emphasis on direct training for shoot boxing

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:52:15.780)

In addition to wrestling so he practiced with very good wrestlers in the montreal wrestling club

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:52:22.420)

Just the sport of wrestling and that's what made him very good at finishing takedowns, but it was in his shoot boxing training

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:52:30.420)

Which he himself largely developed remember george started at a time when mma was pretty damn young

Lex Fridman (1:52:38.180)

and um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:52:40.180)

Um, he we were when when you entered the sport of mixed martial arts george, it wasn't even allowed on tv

Lex Fridman (1:52:47.140)

Like it was completely banned. It was in his country. It was

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:52:50.180)

physically banned

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:52:51.540)

Uh, they had to fight on indian reservations and you know, and this is way back in the wild west days of mma

Lex Fridman (1:52:57.380)

and so as a as a young developing athlete he had to

Lex Fridman (1:53:01.140)

More or less do this by himself

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:53:03.540)

If you ever want to hear some incredible stories talk about teenage george saint pierre

Lex Fridman (1:53:07.700)

Who had a coach who used to make him put on boxing gloves now?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:53:12.580)

He was 16 17 years old and just put him on a hardwood floor against a professional boxer who was in his

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:53:19.940)

Late 20s at the peak of his career and he said george you're not allowed to punch

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:53:24.580)

You just got to take him down while he tries to knock you out

Lex Fridman (1:53:27.460)

And it was and it was crazy

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:53:30.000)

darwinism, he was like

Lex Fridman (1:53:32.340)

It's like you're gonna you're gonna

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:53:34.660)

Adapt or you're gonna die

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:53:36.660)

Literally and he had that it could have been very bad, but it turns out to be great

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:53:40.820)

He's admitted

Lex Fridman (1:53:41.940)

but there's a sense here in which

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:53:43.940)

People think oh, you know what determines your takedown ability in mma as your wrestling skill

Lex Fridman (1:53:50.500)

that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:53:51.700)

Your wrestling skill will determine your finishing ability on takedowns, but there's so much more to it than that

Lex Fridman (1:53:59.860)

Whenever people say, you know, what what are the broad

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:54:02.740)

elements that determine the outcome of a mixed martial arts fight

Lex Fridman (1:54:07.860)

Okay on the broadest possible level. I always give the same three things

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:54:13.060)

The athlete who can dominate the pace

Lex Fridman (1:54:16.260)

of the match

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:54:17.860)

The athlete who can dominate the direction of the match and the athlete who can dominate the setups will win the vast majority of fights

Lex Fridman (1:54:26.180)

They're in those three things

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:54:28.180)

The direction the pace and the setups you dominate all three of those

Lex Fridman (1:54:33.300)

You're going to win 90 of the matches. You're in

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:54:37.140)

Um, george could always dominate the direction of the fight because he could stop the other guy taking him down

Lex Fridman (1:54:42.500)

And he could impose his own takedowns at any point in a match

Lex Fridman (1:54:46.020)

So whether it went to ground or whether it stayed standing was always up to him

Lex Fridman (1:54:51.460)

George had the most sophisticated array of setups into takedowns

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:54:54.980)

That i've personally ever witnessed

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:54:59.060)

um, the whole distinction between reactive and proactive takedowns came very early in george's career and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:55:05.780)

He excelled in both most people tend to favor one or the other

Lex Fridman (1:55:10.580)

Most athletes have a very hard time

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:55:14.000)

imposing

Lex Fridman (1:55:15.860)

Their setups on an opponent and as a result they have to use

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:55:18.500)

The cage as a crutch for their for their setups where they just bully someone towards the cage and then put them down on the cage

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:55:26.260)

George is one of the very few people who was equally good against the cage or in the open

Lex Fridman (1:55:30.980)

And could do so in both proactive and reactive

Lex Fridman (1:55:33.840)

situations

Lex Fridman (1:55:37.540)

And the scary thing is that as good as

Lex Fridman (1:55:41.300)

All of you saw him look in the octagon

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:55:44.020)

Um, anyone who knows george as a coach will tell you he was twice as good as that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:55:50.580)

In the gym where he would often go against people several weight divisions above himself

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:55:55.220)

I could sit here all day. I won't name names, but I always laugh when people say oh, this is the greatest

Lex Fridman (1:56:01.300)

Uh pound for pound guy of all time and i've personally seen george

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:56:05.220)

Take that guy down and crush him in the gym

Lex Fridman (1:56:06.900)

And I can't say anything because it's rude to talk about that in public because it's just training

Lex Fridman (1:56:10.900)

But i've seen george go with people all the way up to light heavyweight some of the greatest names in the history of the sport

Lex Fridman (1:56:16.020)

Put them down

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:56:17.860)

Advanced position on the ground and dominate them in training. It's it's what he did during that time. I uh, george

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:56:24.180)

I I got to say I deeply admire many of the things I saw you do not just in the octagon but

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:56:30.340)

in training as well as um

Lex Fridman (1:56:33.060)

The the impact that you had on

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:56:36.660)

uh, the

Lex Fridman (1:56:38.740)

the degree to which

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:56:40.660)

Takedowns were used in the sport was absolutely inspirational

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:56:44.500)

That's why one of one of the reasons why I always say you're one of the the only athlete I ever met who taught me

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:56:50.020)

more than than I taught you because you opened my eyes to a whole new world of of shoot boxing and how

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:56:57.060)

I grew up in a time when uh, you I was laughing before when you talked about sugar ray lennard

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:57:01.860)

I was a kid watching that match and um, I grew up in a time where there was

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:57:06.100)

Boxing and there was kickboxing and then I came to america and I learned grappling and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:57:11.860)

This young man here was the innovator when it came to the integration of the two

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:57:15.940)

Well, then I have to ask because george sits here uncomfortably being complimented

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:57:20.900)

um

Lex Fridman (1:57:21.940)

if george saint pierre

Lex Fridman (1:57:23.780)

And kabib nurmagomedov face each other in their prime who wins

Lex Fridman (1:57:28.340)

Who that's a very very loaded question how yeah, like what are the different trajectories you see?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:57:33.620)

Oh, okay. How does each one win in your view if one wins or the other one wins what happened interestingly they're actually

Lex Fridman (1:57:40.980)

very similar in size despite the fact that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:57:43.780)

George fought at welterweight and kabib fought it

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:57:47.220)

Lightweight if you actually see them standing next to each other the of similar height. Kabib's actually a little more thick set

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:57:54.100)

Yeah, he's actually heavier than you walking around. Um, uh, george walked around most of his career between 188 and 191

Lex Fridman (1:58:01.620)

191 pounds

Lex Fridman (1:58:04.100)

And so kabib actually would ironically have

Lex Fridman (1:58:07.380)

a kind of size and strength advantage

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:58:09.540)

Uh despite being in the lighter weight division that's been the general trend as mma

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:58:14.820)

Has grown is that athletes will come further down and wait to make weight divisions. Um,

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:58:21.780)

Uh

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:58:23.140)

I believe that george has the best takedowns in history, uh in the open in the cage

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:58:29.940)

Um, kabib was his great strength was using the fence to facilitate takedowns. Um,

Lex Fridman (1:58:39.700)

Kabib's

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:58:40.980)

Other great strength was not only his ability to take people down but to keep people down for extended periods of time

Lex Fridman (1:58:46.820)

both of them were

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:58:49.060)

Powerful strikers on the ground and could do terrible damage to opponents, uh on the floor

Lex Fridman (1:58:54.900)

So they're both very similar in that regard

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:58:57.620)

Um, kabib was mostly a uh, a puncher from the back george was mostly an elbow from the front

Lex Fridman (1:59:04.660)

Um, but both of them could lay waste to opponents with strikes on the floor

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:59:09.860)

Um, both of them were highly competent with submissions on the ground

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:59:14.500)

They weren't submission specialists in the sense of someone like gordon ryan, but uh, they were

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:59:20.020)

certainly, um

Lex Fridman (1:59:22.180)

No slouches with submission holds. Um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:59:24.980)

Um, yeah, it's just a fascinating idea. So it's almost like who gets the first takedown. Yeah, I do believe

Lex Fridman (1:59:33.300)

that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:59:34.340)

They could probably stand up on each other

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:59:37.140)

I don't think either one of them would be able to hold the other down for a whole round

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:59:41.700)

Um, both of them are notoriously difficult people to hold down

Lex Fridman (1:59:45.700)

So I don't think that whoever won the first takedown wins the match. I don't think it's like that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (1:59:49.940)

Um, I do believe that george would hold a decisive advantage in striking and distance management

Lex Fridman (1:59:57.460)

um, the few times that kabib did look shaky is

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (20:00.000)

just knocked knocked out Robbie Lawler with leg kick and

Lex Fridman (20:04.680)

The person who was my agent at the time did a great move

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (20:07.520)

For me, so he brought Pete Spratt in Montreal to fight me Pete Spratt came to Montreal

Lex Fridman (20:12.720)

I and I believe he didn't know who I was

Lex Fridman (20:15.680)

So he thought that he was coming to collect an easy paycheck and I and I end up beating him

Lex Fridman (20:20.600)

So that gave me the opportunity to fight in UFC

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (20:24.480)

Then after I was in UFC, I wanted to become champion of the world, you know

Lex Fridman (20:27.920)

but Matthews was there and he seems invincible at the time so

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (20:31.560)

Everybody doubt me again, and I became world champion and after when you when I was world champion, I wanted to be I

Lex Fridman (20:39.520)

was competing against other world champion of other weight class

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (20:44.440)

For the title, you know for the legacy and everything. So it's not no longer competing against my opponent

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (20:50.840)

I was you know as a competitor you always you never wanted to be you never want to be satisfied because when

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (20:57.200)

Satisfaction is the death, you know when you're satisfied you better retire because it's over

Lex Fridman (21:02.760)

So always I have to find motivation what you can have more. I want more don't be satisfied in life. So I wanted to be

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (21:11.360)

Like the best, you know, I want as I was competing, you know

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (21:14.680)

Like to become the best and and you know, of course that people doubt doubt you all the time

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (21:19.880)

Every time you say something that it's outside of the norm of the normality

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (21:25.600)

I want to say there there's nothing normal, but I'm talking about when you you manifest your desire to do something that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (21:33.920)

takes

Lex Fridman (21:35.080)

Special attribute to to to succeed or that is something that is hard to to do

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (21:40.540)

It's for sure you're gonna always have people that doubt you it's so strange that people don't

Lex Fridman (21:45.280)

They don't lean into supporting like people that love you, too

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (21:48.480)

yeah, even people that love me used to doubt me and I believe I I you need to use that as

Lex Fridman (21:54.440)

a

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (21:56.280)

Positive positive thing as a motivation to prove them wrong

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (22:00.360)

Yeah, so for me that that was a thing when someone doubt me nothing gave me more

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (22:06.320)

There's more energy because I want to prove him wrong

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (22:09.560)

I want to look at him in the face and say hey, you see I got you man. I I did it

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (22:14.960)

so

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (22:15.920)

John do you ever use this in one way or the other by saying I don't think you can do this to motivate them to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (22:21.280)

prove you wrong or more general question of

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (22:25.600)

You know the mental toughness required to achieve or confidence required to achieve greatness

Lex Fridman (22:32.000)

Like what's your role as a coach when you have these two athletes with regards to your your first question?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (22:37.440)

Would I ever say to someone you can't do this as a kind of reverse psychology? I know

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (22:44.060)

My job is to prepare people first and foremost with their skills and

Lex Fridman (22:50.960)

as Gordon pointed out earlier if you're

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (22:54.680)

In any way a rational human being and you're noticing that you're getting tremendous success

Lex Fridman (23:01.640)

with a given move in the gym against high level opponents who

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (23:05.840)

Give a good read on what your actual opponent in a competition is like

Lex Fridman (23:09.960)

You would have to be a moron to not

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (23:13.960)

Recognize that kind of success and say this is something I should be building into my game and you will carry the confidence that

Lex Fridman (23:21.600)

You earned in the gym into the arena

Lex Fridman (23:24.680)

So I never try to use reverse psychology. I build up

Lex Fridman (23:30.360)

Everything I do in terms of confidence is to give people physical skills

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (23:33.560)

I know people say all this physicality on the one hand is mentality on the other and confidence is squarely in the the mental

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (23:41.480)

Aspect of the game, but all the underpinnings and beginnings of confidence are physical

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (23:49.240)

okay, a rational human being will see where they're having success and where they're having failure and

Lex Fridman (23:55.880)

confidence will

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (23:57.760)

Surround those areas where they're having success and will degenerate in cases where they're having failure

Lex Fridman (24:04.240)

so my job as a coach is to set them up for success in the gym with a given set of skills and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (24:10.920)

I don't have to do anything

Lex Fridman (24:14.120)

psychologically after that I just

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (24:16.920)

If I can set you up to be highly successful

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (24:19.840)

With a given move or a set of tactics ten times in a row against quality opposition in the gym

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (24:25.000)

I don't have to do a damn thing when it comes to instilling confidence. I

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (24:29.680)

Will tell people hey, you're doing a really good job with that move. It's working well for you

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (24:34.080)

but

Lex Fridman (24:35.560)

When they nod in agreement, I'm not trying to force anything on them

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (24:39.440)

They're recognized they or they already recognized that long before the words came out of my mouth

Lex Fridman (24:44.120)

but on the other hand intelligent rational people will recognize when they're failing with given moves and no amount of talk on my part can

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (24:52.280)

ever change that if

Lex Fridman (24:54.280)

I teach Gordon

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (24:57.040)

a given arm lock and

Lex Fridman (24:59.640)

15 times in a row. It tries it over a month and all 15 of failures

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (25:04.360)

There's nothing I can say verbally to come up to go and say hey, you're really good at that move

Lex Fridman (25:08.080)

He's gonna look at me say bullshit

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (25:09.520)

I'm terrible at it and that will create a crisis of confidence where Gordon no longer believes the words coming out of my mouth

Lex Fridman (25:15.960)

So I will never compromise that but isn't there a lot you just said 15 there you have to believe

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (25:22.120)

that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (25:24.840)

Doing this arm lock 15 times over a period of a month is worth it because eventually you might get it

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (25:30.040)

I think yeah, that's a separate issue that that's a separate issue

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (25:37.040)

There are times where I've more or less pushed athletes to go in a certain direction for example

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (25:45.200)

When I first met Gary tone and he never had a guillotine

Lex Fridman (25:47.520)

Strangle and I I would say don't carry, you know, you're a scrambler

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (25:51.940)

like one of the greatest weapons of scramble can ever develop as a guillotine like it should be in your arsenal and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (25:58.660)

He was like, yeah, I just grab off of the back and I said, well, there's gonna be a day

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (26:02.540)

You can't take someone's back and it's always good to better strangle from front and back

Lex Fridman (26:07.660)

Okay, of course, we all prefer a strangles on the back that makes sense

Lex Fridman (26:11.140)

But there's gonna come a day where it's gonna be useful for you

Lex Fridman (26:14.220)

and so that was one of the few times where I put my foot down and said you're learning this shut the fuck up and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (26:20.660)

Like literally wouldn't teach him any anything else until you got a guillotine. Yeah, Gary like asked him a question

Lex Fridman (26:25.740)

he's like, let's say you're guillotine and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (26:29.700)

For the first three months as gifted as as Gary tone it is and learning most moves most moves Gary gets it like

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (26:36.860)

in minutes, there was something going on with Gary just couldn't get a guillotine on people and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (26:42.380)

Finally after around three months, he started having some success until ultimately became one of his best weapons

Lex Fridman (26:50.780)

We had to go through like 15 different variations of guillotine

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (26:54.540)

until he found one which actually worked reliably for him and

Lex Fridman (26:58.500)

That was one of the few times where I put my foot down and said no

Lex Fridman (27:01.900)

Do you have to learn this the long search had to do more with the physical characteristics?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (27:06.340)

I couldn't figure out the right like it made sense. It made sense in the case of Gary tone because there were more opportunities per minute

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (27:12.740)

Of his grappling for guillotines

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (27:15.260)

The investment and time was worth it for another athlete. I might have said well

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (27:19.380)

He hardly ever gets in the situation the front headlong so guillotine so it's not even worth investing the training time

Lex Fridman (27:24.980)

Let me ask you a question on the on the competition side mentioned haters

Lex Fridman (27:28.660)

And do you think about this aspect of the competition with athletes?

Lex Fridman (27:32.640)

If there's a great question and the answer is no

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (27:38.680)

I'm

Lex Fridman (27:39.960)

You can see that you could you couldn't find two more polar opposites

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (27:45.680)

psychologically than than George St. Pierre and this monstrosity on my left and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (27:52.080)

I've I've never said to my athletes. Hey, I think this is the sort of demeanor you should carry yourself with

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (27:59.220)

I'm myself a very flawed character and I'm the last person on earth

Lex Fridman (28:04.660)

Who should be delving out moral advice to other people?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (28:08.820)

The only thing is that I you know, of course, I believe some things are off limits

Lex Fridman (28:13.100)

But as long as it's done in the context of sport with no one's physically attacking people or do anything crazy

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (28:18.660)

Where it just goes completely over the top then I give almost zero

Lex Fridman (28:24.740)

Moral advice to my athletes. I'm a jiu jitsu coach not a preacher

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (28:27.500)

I

Lex Fridman (28:29.620)

If I can if I may

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (28:31.540)

We are entertainers

Lex Fridman (28:34.140)

You know, we're athletes or professional athletes, but we make

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (28:38.460)

We make a living because of people or want to see us perform

Lex Fridman (28:44.540)

Same thing an actor or something a singer and a lot of the time

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (28:49.460)

especially in the fight game

Lex Fridman (28:51.460)

An event is promoted. It needs to be with emotion

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (28:58.940)

Love me hate me, but do not ignore me

Lex Fridman (29:02.620)

and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (29:04.220)

You know it

Lex Fridman (29:05.680)

when it's authentic and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (29:08.700)

It's done. Well, I think me my personally my my favorite fighters to watch are the one that are that

Lex Fridman (29:14.740)

That I that have a sort of some sort of a bad persona

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (29:18.700)

I really enjoy watching those guys because

Lex Fridman (29:22.420)

They bring an emotion element into a fight, which is great

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (29:26.540)

You know, I I feel to me it's more interesting to watch when there is an emotion involved and I believe that's why

Lex Fridman (29:34.340)

Some fighters make more money than others, you know, you know what I mean?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (29:38.220)

They would that's the reason why we may we can make a living out of this

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (29:41.520)

Yeah, they're better entertainers, but you're right. The authenticity seems to be really important. There's actually something very interesting there

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (29:47.580)

It's time to break out some some secrets

Lex Fridman (29:52.380)

Do you know who like you think of George St. Pierre you think of like the highly technical polished

Lex Fridman (29:58.860)

Martial artists. Oh, this is gonna be great. Do you know who his favorite fighters to watch were?

Lex Fridman (2:00:01.860)

when he

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:00:03.300)

Kabir was either advancing forward menacingly, but when he had to fight moving backwards

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:00:09.780)

There was a definite asymmetry between his ability to fight going forwards, which is very good and his ability to fight going backwards

Lex Fridman (2:00:16.020)

Which was noticeably?

Lex Fridman (2:00:17.620)

weaker

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:00:18.660)

Um, george would often fight both forwards and backwards. It was the giago elvis fight

Lex Fridman (2:00:25.380)

Most of the standing time. Yeah, it was was going backwards. Um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:00:30.980)

That's probably the single biggest difference between the two athletes and skill level would be in the standing position

Lex Fridman (2:00:37.940)

um on the ground, uh

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:00:41.780)

Kabib slight edge and takedowns on the fence george slight edge and takedowns in the center

Lex Fridman (2:00:47.060)

um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:00:48.420)

Ability to inflict damage on the floor roughly equal ability to fight off the back roughly equal

Lex Fridman (2:00:54.740)

Ability to stand up from bottom roughly equal. It's a very very hard match

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:00:58.980)

um

Lex Fridman (2:01:00.340)

In terms of the biggest

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:01:02.580)

difference in skill level is going to be in a standing position and so it would come down to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:01:07.300)

um, that doesn't necessarily mean that kabib would lose in the standing position. He might just push it to the fence and just

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:01:13.060)

use match tactics where he

Lex Fridman (2:01:15.060)

Kept the fight on the fence for significant periods of time

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:01:19.140)

um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:01:20.180)

Uh, and you can win rounds in that fashion. So it's a match that could go either way

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:01:24.500)

Both of them are absolutely the best that you'll ever see

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:01:27.700)

I've always believed the three greatest mixed martial artists i've ever seen in my life were george saint pierre kabib. Noam, get off and john jones

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:01:35.460)

Um, the three of them have some interesting similarities and differences

Lex Fridman (2:01:39.860)

all three

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:01:41.860)

Uh beat every single person they ever faced

Lex Fridman (2:01:46.020)

um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:01:46.900)

I I know john jones officially has a loss by dq, but no one believes that was a loss

Lex Fridman (2:01:53.140)

um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:01:54.100)

uh, george does have two losses, but he

Lex Fridman (2:01:57.300)

uh

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:01:58.180)

Defeated both athletes decisively

Lex Fridman (2:02:00.580)

Uh in rematches kabib did it by having no losses

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:02:03.780)

Interestingly all three athletes have at least one match which is controversial in terms of who won and who lost

Lex Fridman (2:02:11.800)

um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:02:13.160)

John jones has had several matches which could have gone either way on the judge's scorecard kabib's

Lex Fridman (2:02:19.400)

Uh match against glaceon t bell could have gone either way

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:02:22.920)

Uh george's match with hendrix was could have gone either way

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:02:26.520)

They they all had matches that they won which people would dispute the outcome. So that was a similarity between the three of them. Um,

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:02:34.760)

all three of them

Lex Fridman (2:02:37.880)

Have had the ability

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:02:39.880)

To dominate the direction of fights when they want it to go down it goes down when they don't want it to go down

Lex Fridman (2:02:45.320)

It doesn't

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:02:46.520)

um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:02:47.640)

That's why I put such a heavy emphasis on that idea that a mixed martial arts champion

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:02:51.960)

Must be able to determine the direction of a fight. It's the single most important attribute that they all must have

Lex Fridman (2:02:58.360)

um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:02:59.560)

As to which of the three is the best it's going to come down to criteria

Lex Fridman (2:03:04.760)

You you can't pull them apart

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:03:07.880)

Which answer you give as to which of those three is the greatest of all time will come down to the criteria that you use

Lex Fridman (2:03:13.800)

Okay, is it being undefeated?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:03:15.800)

um

Lex Fridman (2:03:16.680)

Uh, is it the amount of time was it the quality of the opponents that they had if you do it by quality of opponents?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:03:22.680)

I think you probably have to give it to george if you do it by um

Lex Fridman (2:03:27.240)

Uh measured dominance through not being defeated and it has to go to compete

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:03:31.640)

um

Lex Fridman (2:03:33.000)

Arguably you could say the same with john jones since his one

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:03:36.820)

losses

Lex Fridman (2:03:39.880)

By dq

Lex Fridman (2:03:40.840)

But then you could also say the last three or four fights that john's had haven't been the same measure of dominance as we saw

Lex Fridman (2:03:46.900)

previously

Lex Fridman (2:03:47.960)

so ultimately

Lex Fridman (2:03:49.240)

You've got those three guys in my opinion

Lex Fridman (2:03:51.640)

And which one you choose will come down to who it says more about who you are as a viewer than it does about

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:03:57.960)

The respective label of the athletes you could throw a blanket over them. The three of them are just that good and um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:04:04.280)

Uh, and which one you select will probably say more about who you are as a viewer than it does about them as athletes

Lex Fridman (2:04:12.280)

I I believe the best fighter the goat is not even born

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:04:17.800)

because

Lex Fridman (2:04:18.680)

the generation

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:04:20.840)

That is present

Lex Fridman (2:04:22.920)

Benefit of a huge advantage

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:04:25.720)

They have knowledge technology that we didn't have before

Lex Fridman (2:04:29.000)

And we had the the knowledge that the other generation did not have before

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:04:34.600)

but

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:04:35.880)

I believe the best the goat is not even born yet as good as they are today. I think you

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:04:41.880)

In sport where you can measure the performance, uh track and field

Lex Fridman (2:04:46.440)

Olympic lifting you can you know someone

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:04:49.400)

Is better than the other one because you can measure the performance fighting. It's all subjective. We always debate of who would win

Lex Fridman (2:04:57.160)

but

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:04:58.360)

10 the tendency in sport

Lex Fridman (2:05:01.720)

is that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:05:02.840)

Performance get better. I don't think it's because the athlete necessarily get better

Lex Fridman (2:05:06.200)

It's because they have access to better technology knowledge

Lex Fridman (2:05:10.120)

And they learn from their predecessor

Lex Fridman (2:05:13.880)

As long as that knowledge is transferred forward

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:05:16.200)

Something tells me that the greatest of all time lived a few thousand years ago and it's forgotten some of the greatest warriors

Lex Fridman (2:05:23.080)

Like you imagine the kind of grapplers. We just the history didn't record them

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:05:29.320)

There could have been small tribes where they developed many ufcs

Lex Fridman (2:05:33.880)

And they've developed the kind of things we you have to think of like, uh, the gracies

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:05:38.680)

Just a small family was able to develop so much so quickly

Lex Fridman (2:05:42.600)

I often

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:05:43.800)

As this this discussion with john and I think it's very important like to mention I asked you very several times like

Lex Fridman (2:05:50.280)

What would happen if we would take?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:05:53.480)

A fighter of modern days facing the champion of pancration. This is an interesting question

Lex Fridman (2:05:59.080)

And you brought some incredible good point and and people don't don't realize it, you know

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:06:04.760)

yeah, no, I think um, one of the great tragedies of martial arts history is our loss of

Lex Fridman (2:06:12.680)

uh, the historical records of pancration like most of what we know was

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:06:17.000)

Uh from what i'm told is actually lost in the fires of the library of alexandria

Lex Fridman (2:06:22.840)

And we're left with only a pitiful amount of information on uh pancration matches

Lex Fridman (2:06:28.440)

But what we do know is that there was a very

Lex Fridman (2:06:32.440)

large

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:06:33.400)

uh participation in the sport and that it was

Lex Fridman (2:06:36.440)

Why they considered the most popular

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:06:39.160)

Sport in the ancient olympics and that it was represented in the ancient olympics for many hundreds of years

Lex Fridman (2:06:45.480)

Plus a long period of time before its introduction into the ancient olympics

Lex Fridman (2:06:50.040)

And so the development time

Lex Fridman (2:06:52.360)

That it may have had would have been very significant it

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:06:56.920)

Uh as far as we know most of the development would have been in the major greek city states for

Lex Fridman (2:07:03.800)

Uh, literally hundreds of years of development

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:07:06.280)

Um given its prestige as an olympic sport then the best athletes would have been doing it some of the sharpest minds that we know of

Lex Fridman (2:07:14.280)

In human history were involved in the sport. Um, plato the great philosopher

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:07:21.480)

uh

Lex Fridman (2:07:22.840)

Was a pancreasianist in his youth. In fact, his name plato is a nickname

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:07:28.840)

platus is like plate

Lex Fridman (2:07:30.920)

it means broad or big guy like the big guy and um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:07:36.120)

Uh, he spoke often about pancreasian and in his written works

Lex Fridman (2:07:40.280)

Um, imagine people with the intelligence of plato

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:07:45.960)

thinking about

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:07:47.800)

Grappling technique for hundreds of years in the most popular olympic sport of that time

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:07:53.300)

significant numbers of people with

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:07:55.560)

Financial backing as city states put great prestige upon olympic success. They would have funneled athletes in

Lex Fridman (2:08:01.400)

And brought in the best coaches and they had that for many hundreds of years like it's quite conceivable that the best pancreasian athletes

Lex Fridman (2:08:09.720)

were of the absolute first quality and um, uh, it it's

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:08:16.520)

It's so sad to think we'll never know. What was their skill level and uh,

Lex Fridman (2:08:20.920)

It's interesting to think about what kind of techniques they developed whether

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:08:25.320)

There's stuff we haven't discovered yet in class. You're talking about the most effective

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:08:29.240)

Of takedown strategy in wrestling and collegiate wrestling. So maybe let me ask first, uh, because we offline talked about this, too

Lex Fridman (2:08:36.440)

What is the highest percentage submission in grappling overall? You have to go with the rear naked strangle strangles from the back

Lex Fridman (2:08:44.840)

If you look at most tournaments and most rule sets

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:08:48.520)

It has success across all rule sets. Um, all weight divisions

Lex Fridman (2:08:53.640)

All body types. It doesn't require any kind of specific

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:08:57.800)

Physical advantage such as height, uh in order to be effective

Lex Fridman (2:09:02.360)

Um, it works equally well in both fighting and grappling. Um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:09:06.920)

It will work regardless of how physically and mentally tough your opponent is. Okay

Lex Fridman (2:09:11.720)

A heel hook is a very high percentage technique in in modern day competition

Lex Fridman (2:09:17.240)

But if your opponent simply makes up his mind that he's not going to tap and is willing to take the physical damage

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:09:23.320)

It won't result in the end of a match a strangle hold by contrast will always end the match regardless of

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:09:30.680)

Your opponent's mental toughness

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:09:32.680)

So, um, I believe it's fair to say that at the end of the day the single most high percentage

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:09:39.400)

method of uh submitting people and grappling is the rear naked strangle. So when you look at an athlete, maybe Gordon you could speak to this like

Lex Fridman (2:09:47.000)

What's the best, uh, you mentioned Gary with the guillotine

Lex Fridman (2:09:49.960)

What's the best submission to really invest in? Is it the rear naked choke?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:09:54.600)

To really invest your development like understanding the entirety of the system that leads into that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:09:59.800)

Uh, I think that I mean you have to do them all obviously

Lex Fridman (2:10:02.120)

But if I had like one submission that I would only one submission I could pick for the rest of my life

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:10:06.600)

It would definitely be a rear naked

Lex Fridman (2:10:08.840)

Can you explain maybe some of the actual technical details of why that's the case?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:10:14.600)

Well as John spoke about they're different in joint locks. Whereas

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:10:18.040)

You don't have to tap you can just let your leg break and then keep going with the strangle. There's there's no, uh,

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:10:24.680)

There's none of that. Um, and then it's just an inherent

Lex Fridman (2:10:28.680)

Advantage you have being behind someone

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:10:31.160)

Um, whereas if you go for an armbar you stop you start from top mount and you're facing the guy and then you put them

Lex Fridman (2:10:35.720)

Down and you're not directly behind them with leg locks. You're facing the guy

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:10:39.480)

Whereas when you're on someone's back you have them in a pin where you can your chest to back

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:10:43.800)

You have a body triangle and you're pinning the guy in place. He can't explode out. He can't grease his way out

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:10:48.440)

Most of the time, uh, and there's an inherent advantage you have being behind them due to the fact that

Lex Fridman (2:10:53.400)

We're poorly set up to deal with threats behind us

Lex Fridman (2:10:57.080)

So would you say that's the most dominant position jiu jitsu like more than mount?

Lex Fridman (2:11:02.520)

More than yeah

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:11:04.120)

Sack control more than I think uh, if you look at most matches historically

Lex Fridman (2:11:08.920)

Most guys who get stuck in positions

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:11:10.920)

For long amounts of time are guys that they're back taking. Um, if you get

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:11:15.400)

An explosive guy from bottom mountain bridge and he can off balance you and lock half guard maybe and then work back to guard

Lex Fridman (2:11:20.680)

But if someone locks a body triangle on your back, um, that's where you see most guys getting pinned in place for long amounts of time

Lex Fridman (2:11:28.200)

Was uh was the body triangle like a well understood thing

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:11:33.000)

Was that an invention at some point like as a system as a as a control

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:11:37.720)

Yeah, um, perhaps some of your your listeners can correct me on this but I believe there was a technique banned in judo called dojime

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:11:44.840)

Which involved crossing feet or locking a triangle around the abdominals from the back and it was banned in judo

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:11:51.880)

I believe because uh of intestinal injuries which occurred in the early developmental days of of judo

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:12:00.120)

and

Lex Fridman (2:12:01.160)

in the modern era

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:12:02.840)

When I first began jiu jitsu body triangles were relatively rare. They were not a standard part of class

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:12:08.920)

Um, and sometime around the late 1990s early 2000s people started to realize hey, this is a stronger method of control

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:12:17.400)

um

Lex Fridman (2:12:18.600)

it

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:12:19.960)

It greatly increases the amount of control you have over your of your opponent's hips and torso over regular hooks

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:12:25.800)

Uh, it's not for all athletes. It's difficult for most people who are of shorter thicker statue, uh, to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:12:33.320)

Employ on on on big people if your opponent's very broadly built through the stomach. It's almost impossible to apply

Lex Fridman (2:12:39.880)

And so because it can't be applied by all people it tends not to be taught much at beginner level

Lex Fridman (2:12:46.520)

So as a result, it was always seen as a

Lex Fridman (2:12:50.920)

kind of a speciality

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:12:52.920)

It was always seen as a kind of a specialist move for taller athletes at a higher level of competition rather than a broad

Lex Fridman (2:13:00.520)

Base move for everyone or every body type in every class to employ

Lex Fridman (2:13:04.760)

So it just didn't get emphasized that much but in top level competition now

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:13:08.840)

I think you would see that it's very apparent that the vast majority of athletes whenever they have the opportunity or a choice between

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:13:16.200)

Body triangle and regular rear mounts the majority of modern athletes would use a body triangle

Lex Fridman (2:13:22.040)

So we also had this conversation about wrestling. Maybe georgie can comment on like what what's the uh, the highest percentage?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:13:29.240)

Not statistically speaking. Perhaps that's also interesting as john talked about but just for you in terms of mastery of a takedown

Lex Fridman (2:13:36.600)

What's what's the best way to take down a human being?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:13:40.600)

in wrestling well, I

Lex Fridman (2:13:42.920)

Personally for me, it depends

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:13:45.320)

For every fighter are different. They have a different set of skill

Lex Fridman (2:13:48.920)

For me, I when I look someone

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:13:52.520)

Want to bring down a tree a big strong high tree

Lex Fridman (2:13:57.320)

He cut it from the base

Lex Fridman (2:13:59.640)

So the legs that that's what we stand on so it was to attack the leg

Lex Fridman (2:14:05.400)

But is it single leg double leg? Is it we talked about like, uh,

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:14:09.000)

Well, there's also the the john smith low single. Actually, I don't even know if that's applicable for jiu jitsu at all

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:14:15.560)

Applicable for jiu jitsu at all. You you can use it, but it runs into the problem with submission holds

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:14:20.920)

Yeah, it's it's not impossible to use but without shoes and in a situation where there's a whole plethora of submission holds in the scoring

Lex Fridman (2:14:30.840)

It's a little more difficult to use, you know

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:14:33.720)

It is interesting something being a high percentage in terms of effectiveness tells a story

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:14:39.160)

You're saying that every athlete is different. But if it's more effective for most people

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:14:43.800)

I mean, it's interesting. It's it's interesting what john talked about is that

Lex Fridman (2:14:49.240)

the highest percentage thing is actually, um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:14:53.400)

In collegiate wrestling that he was talking about is

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:14:56.280)

On the defensive side, so blocking a takedown and spinning around to the to the back

Lex Fridman (2:15:02.520)

So that's an interesting idea then also there's all of these kind of going in for a singleness switching to a double or

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:15:09.320)

Or wizard position and doing knee tap like there's all these kinds of combinations that seem to be

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:15:15.480)

Effective when you look at the statistics and it seems like there's maybe it's a scientific way of thinking but it seems like there is

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:15:22.120)

Some conclusion to be drawn there. Oh, yeah, I believe you need to the high percentage move

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:15:27.720)

There's a reason why it works. I think it's

Lex Fridman (2:15:30.600)

It's made

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:15:31.880)

for a bigger amount of people

Lex Fridman (2:15:34.040)

um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:15:35.080)

For example, I one of my main

Lex Fridman (2:15:37.080)

strength

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:15:39.080)

Athletic strength is i'm an explosive person

Lex Fridman (2:15:41.640)

So i'll use technique that are explosive if I got a single leg my my one of my thing

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:15:46.840)

I like to do is to go for the double power double

Lex Fridman (2:15:50.360)

but for uh

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:15:51.880)

Someone else we got for example in a single leg position. Maybe he likes

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:15:57.080)

Like body throw better. He's more a greco guy like so or he's a judo guy. He's gonna go for something something else. So

Lex Fridman (2:16:03.480)

But there there is move that are I would say like you just mentioned are universal like statistically speaking. They're

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:16:10.920)

The highest percentage move that works for pretty much everybody everybody pretty much can do a an adhaka jimmy, you know

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:16:18.440)

It's very easy

Lex Fridman (2:16:19.800)

But it's not everybody that can lock a triangle with their legs

Lex Fridman (2:16:24.040)

So so those move like a rear naked choke adhaka jimmy is the highest percentage move because it's maybe

Lex Fridman (2:16:31.320)

It's maybe more accessible

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:16:33.720)

It's accessible for a bigger range. Yeah based on the physical characteristics of the people

Lex Fridman (2:16:38.120)

Do you draw any wisdom from these high percentages john for like in terms of what to focus on? Yeah, absolutely

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:16:45.240)

Um juditsu has an ocean of moves and you can get lost on that ocean

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:16:49.960)

You can drift for a long period of time and and and that was very little to show for it

Lex Fridman (2:16:54.440)

So my whole thing is focus. We only live one lifetime

Lex Fridman (2:16:57.640)

And your training lifetime is even shorter than your actual lifetime

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:17:02.280)

so

Lex Fridman (2:17:03.160)

in that time

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:17:04.680)

I must die on the mat

Lex Fridman (2:17:07.800)

That is the same. Yeah

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:17:10.440)

Uh, I I put a very high value on

Lex Fridman (2:17:15.720)

Choosing what I believe to be the most high percentage

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:17:19.320)

Uh moves and putting an extraordinary amount of focus on them

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:17:23.240)

Um, the only problem is that in one generation a move which can be considered low percentage might actually turn out to be high

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:17:30.760)

Percentage in another generation, for example

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:17:33.320)

We talked earlier about leg locks when I was first started judice. They were considered the ultimate low percentage move and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:17:39.880)

Uh a big part of my career has been convincing people that in fact that was

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:17:43.960)

That was incorrect that they can be a high percentage move if we just change our approach to them

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:17:49.400)

um

Lex Fridman (2:17:50.440)

so we can't just

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:17:52.120)

Follow tradition

Lex Fridman (2:17:53.720)

And say oh, this is low percentage. This is high percentage. It has to be part of

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:17:58.120)

a fairly systematic study where you investigate

Lex Fridman (2:18:02.440)

What are the reasons why it's high percentage or low percentage with regards to takedowns?

Lex Fridman (2:18:09.160)

If you look at what?

Lex Fridman (2:18:11.160)

We can consider the most high percentage takedowns

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:18:13.880)

If you're in front of someone the single most high percentage way of taking them down is to get a hold of both of their legs

Lex Fridman (2:18:19.080)

And push them backwards

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:18:20.920)

Okay, if you get a hold of one of their legs and put a force on them

Lex Fridman (2:18:24.280)

They can use their other leg to defend themselves and hop around and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:18:27.400)

Funk their way out of takedowns and cause all kinds of problems for you

Lex Fridman (2:18:30.600)

I don't care how athletic your opponent is if you get a hold a firm grip

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:18:34.680)

Of both of his legs and start pushing him backwards. He's going to fall down to his butt

Lex Fridman (2:18:38.520)

Now he might be able to recover from there, but he will fall down

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:18:42.440)

Even easier than that is to be behind someone

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:18:44.920)

Takedowns from in front of someone are difficult you go right into their hips their head their hands

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:18:50.760)

You go into all their defensive weapons. If you're already behind someone and you're doing what in america

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:18:55.960)

They refer to as a mat return. This is significantly easier than taking someone down from the front

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:19:01.960)

If you have control of their head in a front headlock position

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:19:06.120)

You have already closed distance on your opponent. You already have close contact. You don't have to worry about shooting anymore

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:19:11.160)

There's no sprawl out of that. You don't have to worry about guillotines kimoras or the uh, standard defenses

Lex Fridman (2:19:16.680)

Those will intrinsically be easier takedowns out of front headlock

Lex Fridman (2:19:20.600)

And so if we're going to talk about high percentage technique, I always go back to the mechanics of it

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:19:25.400)

Rather than just historical tradition because historical tradition can be wrong. It was wrong about leg locks

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:19:31.880)

It can be wrong about other things too

Lex Fridman (2:19:34.040)

So my primary thing is okay. Talk to me about mechanics

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:19:36.780)

That's what ultimately is going to determine whether something is high percentage or not. Um,

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:19:41.900)

Gordon pointed out earlier that when you're behind someone you have innate physical advantages over the other guy the human

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:19:47.340)

We the human body is set up entirely to to defend threats from the front

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:19:52.620)

We are poorly adapted to defending threats from the rear. We don't have eyes in the back of our head

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:19:57.900)

We can't apply pushing strength backwards

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:20:00.220)

If you get behind someone take downs are 10 times easier from behind someone than they are when you're in front of someone

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:20:05.900)

If you have to take someone down from the front get a hold of both of their legs

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:20:10.220)

If you can get a hold of both of their legs and impart a pushing force, you will almost always knock them down

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:20:17.820)

If you can get a hold of their head

Lex Fridman (2:20:20.380)

And work takedowns from there again

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:20:22.220)

It's much easier because most of their defensive apparatus is being taken away from them before the takedown even begins

Lex Fridman (2:20:28.700)

and so

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:20:29.660)

For me, the most high percentage takedowns will always be from the front double legs

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:20:33.980)

From the front double legs from any takedown from the back is going to be significantly easier than any takedown from the front

Lex Fridman (2:20:40.460)

So all manner of matte return takedowns are going to be very high percentage

Lex Fridman (2:20:44.700)

um

Lex Fridman (2:20:45.820)

And takedowns done out of situations where the opponent is broken down in front of you and you have either front headlock or front

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:20:51.580)

Chest wrap position are going to be significantly easier than takedowns from the open

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:20:56.380)

Of course, you have to consider the full

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:20:58.700)

Full spectrum of mechanics involved here. It's possible that an outside low single leading to a double leg is much higher percentage

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:21:07.280)

It's like there's a lot of chain wrestling yet

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:21:09.680)

You know that needs to be considered as a possibility maybe a straight on and part of this cultural too

Lex Fridman (2:21:15.360)

Are people afraid of this kind of thing that they came to be the case with leg locks?

Lex Fridman (2:21:19.760)

Are people aware of this?

Lex Fridman (2:21:21.680)

Are they worried about this? Are they training for this to defend this?

Lex Fridman (2:21:24.880)

And and then this opponent specific of course that um, you know with jordan boros people are preparing for the double

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:21:31.600)

Which is why he had to develop

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:21:34.800)

A whole other kinds of different stuff and then the head to all the different controls all the different ties

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:21:40.560)

within the rule set

Lex Fridman (2:21:42.400)

And that's where it's so fascinating to see the effect of rule set on all this judo over the past

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:21:47.840)

I think 20 years went through this every olympics different changes to the rule set like fundamentally different

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:21:54.240)

In terms of what's allowed to grip whether you're allowed to touch the legs at all. That was a big one in 2012, I think

Lex Fridman (2:22:01.920)

And and that changed the sport completely and so interesting

Lex Fridman (2:22:04.720)

It's so interesting to watch how tiny change in the rule can change the sport

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:22:10.240)

At the highest when you're talking about people competing at the highest level

Lex Fridman (2:22:14.560)

and the cool thing there is

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:22:18.000)

The rule change happens on a scale of every four years

Lex Fridman (2:22:20.800)

So you get to see people that are at the top of their game have to like recompute

Lex Fridman (2:22:27.840)

So it's not like you have a new generation of people coming up with the rules. They have to figure oh shit

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:22:31.520)

You're not allowed to like it's it's the equivalent of saying you're not allowed to kick anymore in mma

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:22:37.680)

Because you were not allowed to grab legs anymore in judo

Lex Fridman (2:22:41.580)

interestingly if you look at the case of judo if you look at the world rankings

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:22:48.480)

of athletes

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:22:50.000)

When they went through one of the most significant rule changes in judo history where they banned any form of grabbing the legs

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:22:58.720)

The ranking of athletes didn't change much

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:23:02.720)

Yeah, that tells you that they're um, there's a reason why those guys are at the top

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:23:06.560)

Yeah, and it doesn't have to do that. They're specific to a rule set

Lex Fridman (2:23:10.640)

Yeah, think about that in terms of

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:23:13.280)

Imagine for example in mixed martial arts if they just said hey

Lex Fridman (2:23:17.200)

starting next week

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:23:18.880)

Instead of having three five minute rounds. It's going to be 15 minutes straight

Lex Fridman (2:23:23.200)

That would massively change the preparation of the athletes

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:23:27.680)

It's a different game at that point and judo literally was a different game before 2010 and after 2010

Lex Fridman (2:23:33.760)

and yet

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:23:35.200)

The international rankings didn't really change that much the countries that were dominant before

Lex Fridman (2:23:40.800)

Remained dominant the athletes that remained before largely remained the same

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:23:45.760)

You would think was such a massive change all the rankings would have been thrown upside down, but they weren't and uh, again

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:23:54.000)

It goes back to this idea that there's a reason why the guys at the top are at the top

Lex Fridman (2:24:00.080)

And now for something completely different we talked about aliens earlier. Yeah, so uh, george brought up babasar. I I um,

Lex Fridman (2:24:08.240)

will likely probably talk to babasar on this podcast and then um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:24:11.680)

Um, and then john had this a skeptical look on his face about about aliens. So let me ask uh, john and gordon

Lex Fridman (2:24:20.880)

Uh, do you think there's intelligent alien civilizations out there in the universe outside of our own?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:24:27.120)

The universe is unimaginably large

Lex Fridman (2:24:30.240)

the idea that we are the only life forms in a cosmos as large as this is

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:24:37.840)

I think naive and foolish

Lex Fridman (2:24:39.840)

um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:24:41.840)

There's a very high likelihood that if life could evolve on this planet that it could have done

Lex Fridman (2:24:47.040)

So on many many other planets around the uh around the cosmos

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:24:51.600)

I think anyone who puts even a moment's thought into this would realize that there's

Lex Fridman (2:24:56.560)

Almost certainly other forms of life out there

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:24:59.760)

the real question with regards the alien community is um, have they got here and are they

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:25:05.520)

Yeah, circling our planet in um little silver saucers and making observations and periodically stealing people

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:25:13.360)

For experimentation purposes doesn't have to be silver saucers. It could be different other color saucers

Lex Fridman (2:25:18.800)

Um, and that question i'm i'm i'm not at all convinced. No, I I don't think

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:25:24.080)

recently

Lex Fridman (2:25:25.040)

um navy footage

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:25:27.200)

has come out showing

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:25:29.200)

Some very interesting phenomena if you talk to almost any experienced pilot they will tell you they've seen things in the upper atmosphere

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:25:37.200)

That are very difficult to explain

Lex Fridman (2:25:39.520)

Uh, i'll be the first one to agree with you on this

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:25:41.520)

There are some things out there that are extremely difficult to explain like literally ufos unidentified

Lex Fridman (2:25:47.200)

Yeah, I mean we just don't know what they are

Lex Fridman (2:25:49.280)

but to go from the idea that there's things out there that we don't understand to

Lex Fridman (2:25:55.040)

there's

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:25:56.160)

like

Lex Fridman (2:25:57.120)

Little creatures running around and um, uh, and these somehow exist. Uh,

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:26:02.880)

I just reserve judgment. I just say i'm agnostic about these things. I think it's possible but

Lex Fridman (2:26:08.400)

um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:26:08.960)

all the evidence that i've been showing so far was insufficient to come to any kind of definite conclusions until

Lex Fridman (2:26:15.520)

Aliens land in central park on tuesday afternoon at 3 p.m

Lex Fridman (2:26:19.840)

And get out with little alien ray guns and start shooting people. I didn't believe in

Lex Fridman (2:26:24.400)

Many of the stories that get told

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:26:26.400)

Well, what about if it's not little aliens with ray guns, but something very different very very difficult to detect for us humans

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:26:33.760)

That's very human central creature at that point. It's a it's a fascinating idea and it's certainly possible, but show me the evidence

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:26:41.760)

All right, what about you gordon

Lex Fridman (2:26:44.320)

Do you do you uh look at the cosmos and ponder the stars often? I think it's fair points. John raised

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:26:51.760)

uh, something really interesting I saw the other day was uh,

Lex Fridman (2:26:53.920)

Someone posted like if an alien organ or a civilization

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:26:58.800)

65 million light years away

Lex Fridman (2:27:00.800)

Somehow managed to look at earth

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:27:04.240)

They would theoretically see the dinosaurs because they're 65 million light years away. So like imagine us looking at

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:27:10.560)

Galaxies that are 100 million light years away. That's 100 million years ago. You have no idea what it looks like now

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:27:15.600)

Um, so that's super interesting to me about it

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:27:17.600)

Yeah, the the expanse is huge and so much cool stuff could be going out there. Yeah, and um,

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:27:24.400)

The scary thing of course is if they haven't visited us yet

Lex Fridman (2:27:28.320)

the

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:27:29.840)

There has to be a good reason for it

Lex Fridman (2:27:31.920)

And the the set of scary reasons of all the fact that they maybe once you get sufficiently advanced in your development

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:27:38.800)

You destroy yourself naturally as humans seem to be approaching now

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:27:42.400)

We more and more have the tools to destroy ourselves completely in terms of our weapon systems

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:27:49.200)

Um, and we're developing them more and more and they're becoming better and better

Lex Fridman (2:27:53.440)

And then we're starting to get angry and anger on twitter and instagram at each other

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:27:58.560)

Those are good points you're raising

Lex Fridman (2:28:01.520)

History has taught us that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:28:03.840)

Everything that lives one day will die. So we will we will perish one day. Yeah

Lex Fridman (2:28:08.320)

There's also just the the sheer difficulty of um, of

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:28:14.000)

Of travel through space like space is an unimaginably inhospitable

Lex Fridman (2:28:19.340)

environment

Lex Fridman (2:28:20.320)

And to the best of our knowledge

Lex Fridman (2:28:24.800)

This even the theoretical speeds that we can attain in space even if we could

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:28:30.800)

Travel at the speed of light. We're not even remotely close to that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:28:33.920)

Still the distances that need to be traveled to get to even relatively close solar systems. Um,

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:28:40.640)

Very very long if you look at astronauts

Lex Fridman (2:28:44.080)

Who have spent significant amounts of time in space just orbiting the earth?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:28:48.480)

It has severe health effects on them. We're just not built for space. We're supposed to be

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:28:53.680)

In a gravitational environment, but we you're referring to your biological meat bag that's containing the essence

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:28:59.840)

Of the mind that is john donahoe. Maybe we can transfer the mind

Lex Fridman (2:29:04.000)

alone

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:29:05.200)

The the the the bag the meat the meat bag is not designed for space

Lex Fridman (2:29:09.280)

But maybe the but again, this is all that's of the mind. It's

Lex Fridman (2:29:13.280)

It's possible, but what do you think of concrete evidence you folks who like difficult things?

Lex Fridman (2:29:20.080)

Uh, what do you think about uh, elon musk going to colonize mars?

Lex Fridman (2:29:24.960)

Is this something that's going to happen?

Lex Fridman (2:29:26.960)

Colonize mars. Is this something you find an interesting or a um,

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:29:35.920)

Aimless pursuit. I think it's a must or a salvation

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:29:39.920)

We need to leave at some point the planet because historically in the past we know that we've been bombarded by a steroid

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:29:46.780)

volcano

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:29:48.240)

There are crazy things happen here. It's very unstable. You know, we if you look at it to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:29:52.880)

To a lifetime of a human being it's nothing but just look 12 000 years ago. What happened, you know, so so

Lex Fridman (2:29:59.840)

There is cataclysm that happen all the time. It's very unstable. So

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:30:04.400)

if we want to survive as a species, I think it's it's we need to get out to be able to get out and

Lex Fridman (2:30:10.640)

spread our seed

Lex Fridman (2:30:12.080)

so these are the early steps on a on a really long journey, but is there something about like

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:30:16.240)

You know, we we don't get that exploration from most of modern society, you know, the kind of exploring that people did throughout the centuries

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:30:23.040)

of uh, you know coming to the

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:30:25.600)

North america just throughout we were shrouded in physical uncertainty of what's out there

Lex Fridman (2:30:32.320)

And now we get to do the same kind of exploration with mars

Lex Fridman (2:30:35.520)

Is there so I mean is there any aspect of you that wants to travel out to space that wants to travel to mars?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:30:42.240)

There, you know, the goal is to allow civilians to travel

Lex Fridman (2:30:46.720)

Perhaps in our lifetime

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:30:48.560)

Meaning affordably you can do so now unaffordably

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:30:52.400)

Traveling to space and traveling to mars are two different things. I think I would like to travel into space

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:30:58.400)

I don't know if I would like to travel all the way to mars because of the risks involved

Lex Fridman (2:31:03.600)

just because

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:31:05.120)

Boring

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:31:06.400)

Is there some part of you that enjoys the I think that if I was like towards the end of my life

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:31:10.080)

I would like to travel to mars because it'll be nice just die just for the experience. Yeah, but if I go to mars

Lex Fridman (2:31:14.400)

I'm not coming back. I think that's it

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:31:17.120)

one way ticket

Lex Fridman (2:31:19.200)

May with the technology we have now maybe in the future maybe our

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:31:22.960)

The children of our children will will be able to to experience that to go to the well the the weekend on mars

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:31:31.600)

Uh, well the the whole design of the starship that spacex is working on is supposed to come back

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:31:37.040)

Supposed to be reusable. So it's not it's not a one way ticket. That's the whole point

Lex Fridman (2:31:41.680)

It's always going back and forth back and forth. What's the time frame between two planets?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:31:47.120)

Like to travel from I think the current thing you'd be stuck on mars for two years

Lex Fridman (2:31:52.080)

But how long does it take to get from earth to mars? Oh, it's pretty I'm not exactly sure but it's pretty quick

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:31:57.840)

It's pretty quick. Like, uh, I don't know and the scale of months not scale of years. You might not be healthy

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:32:03.600)

When you come back, you know, all the astronauts they experience health issues, you know, they lose a lot of muscle mass bone density. So

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:32:10.720)

Yeah, I don't think the technology is good right now. I mean

Lex Fridman (2:32:14.160)

Let's say that it is I would love to be doing it for a weekend if it's safe

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:32:19.120)

I would love to be the first one to do it for a professional fighter who sacrifices body for something

Lex Fridman (2:32:25.200)

So there's some sacrifice we do in life, right? I don't want to be the first I wouldn't want to I least

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:32:30.560)

The other one but when I know it's it's safe. Okay, count me in

Lex Fridman (2:32:34.640)

So one of the things that people say and this is something I wonder about is

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:32:38.160)

It's like having children or something once you see once you're out in space and you look out and you see earth

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:32:43.680)

You look back at earth. That's an experience. It's not like anything else like you can't replicate it here

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:32:49.680)

Um is to look back at that like blue dot

Lex Fridman (2:32:53.680)

And that's nerve wracking

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:32:55.680)

Like you see like earth disappear into the distance. Yeah. Yeah disappear

Lex Fridman (2:33:01.360)

Into the distance and then you get to actually stand on mars and see

Lex Fridman (2:33:04.880)

And just to look you're standing on the ground and you're looking out

Lex Fridman (2:33:08.480)

And you see the planet from which you came and where you might not be coming back

Lex Fridman (2:33:12.800)

But there's a challenge to the whole thing. Whereas the risk is tremendous

Lex Fridman (2:33:16.960)

And I don't know I find that risk really compelling for some reason but that could be just

Lex Fridman (2:33:22.000)

The exploration like I guess that's a genetic thing too. How much do you want to explore?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:33:27.680)

There's a sense though in which even in the best case scenario where they did get the technology to whisk you to mars and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:33:34.800)

in a

Lex Fridman (2:33:35.520)

fairly short period of time

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:33:37.520)

it's kind of an inauthentic sense of exploration because

Lex Fridman (2:33:42.000)

your participation in it is

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:33:45.040)

no more exciting than your

Lex Fridman (2:33:47.280)

Participation in an airline flight to a foreign country. You're basically you

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:33:51.840)

You didn't have anything to do with the creation of the of the vessel. You're not in command of the vessel. You're not

Lex Fridman (2:33:57.680)

In any way shape or form important to the mission

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:34:00.560)

You're just a person sitting in a passenger seat

Lex Fridman (2:34:02.800)

And you get off in a destination the same way you would if you flew to singapore or london or someplace like that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:34:07.920)

Well, there's a hierarchy of there's a leadership and then there's a bunch of people that all have roles

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:34:12.880)

There's a hierarchy of there's a leadership and then there's a bunch of people and they all have roles

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:34:17.520)

You don't get to go to mars without having a skill set to contribute

Lex Fridman (2:34:21.520)

You made it sound like space tourism where you just pay a ticket

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:34:24.480)

I I don't I think it's a long time before you have space tourism to mars. We have nothing to contribute

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:34:30.880)

Okay, like you will have to tell what you do you go through like a training program you go training program and then there's uh,

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:34:36.080)

There's technical things you'll be contributing. So they would bring

Lex Fridman (2:34:39.360)

people

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:34:40.560)

You know in terms of agriculture, I don't know. Okay, so this is this is better

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:34:43.840)

This sounds like they're actual they're more like explorers like if you talked before about

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:34:48.700)

explorers and and human history where

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:34:51.040)

Magellan sets off on his boat and every person on the boat had a specific function. They were they were all

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:34:56.960)

Into the mission in a very authentic fashion if they weren't on the boat the performance of the crew would somehow suffer

Lex Fridman (2:35:02.560)

So this sounds much better and just with like with Magellan. I think most of the crew died

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:35:08.320)

A significant number did yeah

Lex Fridman (2:35:12.800)

And from uh, yeah from bacteria, I mean from things that are unexpected and so on and if we discover life on mars

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:35:20.640)

I mean, who knows what that entails because that's like a manned mission to mars

Lex Fridman (2:35:25.520)

Would likely be very driven by the research to do all the kind of um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:35:30.540)

Exploration required to find life now from uh, mr. Musk's, uh

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:35:36.480)

Uh point of view as a developer presumably there has to be some kind of financial incentive here, too

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:35:42.480)

is there

Lex Fridman (2:35:43.680)

some kind of financial benefit to mars missions is is

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:35:48.940)

presumably

Lex Fridman (2:35:50.400)

um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:35:51.360)

There wouldn't be that many people on earth that could afford a ticket to pay for the kind of research and development that would require

Lex Fridman (2:35:57.360)

This is there some kind of mining on mars of minerals that would be useful

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:36:01.440)

I think there's a lot of answers to this but the only honest answer is the one that looks back into human history

Lex Fridman (2:36:06.640)

Where we did a lot of things just because we we could

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:36:10.240)

A lot of hard things just because we could and that led to a lot of innovation that ultimately made our life better

Lex Fridman (2:36:16.640)

So this is more this is why you have nasa. This is why you have government organizations. Like what's the purpose of nasa?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:36:23.040)

NASA would answer that by saying okay. Well, we're helping

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:36:25.600)

We're helping launch satellites up there all that they'll have a bunch of answers, but the reality is the programs

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:36:33.200)

were

Lex Fridman (2:36:34.160)

funded in large part by our desire to explore the unknown

Lex Fridman (2:36:38.640)

and um, there's some aspect to which we have to all invest into that because historically speaking

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:36:44.640)

That has produced a lot of cool things along the way that were totally unexpected

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:36:48.640)

Like uh, but nasa is funded by public funding the taxpayer

Lex Fridman (2:36:52.560)

Uh, how is mr. Musk going to fund this? Well currently

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:36:57.840)

most of the funding was the spacex is nasa giving

Lex Fridman (2:37:01.600)

money

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:37:02.640)

uh to

Lex Fridman (2:37:04.400)

So they're making a competition who can who can get our satellites. We need to go to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:37:10.400)

um

Lex Fridman (2:37:11.600)

you know for the space station to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:37:14.240)

Resupply the space station or we need to launch satellites up who's going to carry those quote unquote payloads

Lex Fridman (2:37:19.680)

But they just need so nasa's paying whoever the heck wants to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:37:23.440)

uh get

Lex Fridman (2:37:24.960)

kilograms of thing up into space

Lex Fridman (2:37:28.640)

Why did this is nasa's specialty? Why did they just give up on that?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:37:32.400)

Well, they why they realized or mr. Musk came along and then bezos and others that said we could do it for one tenth the price

Lex Fridman (2:37:41.360)

So why did the why should the taxpayers pay for the why don't you nasa do what you do well?

Lex Fridman (2:37:46.240)

You know, which is like test out cutting edge stuff. Make sure they're safe

Lex Fridman (2:37:50.880)

and now

Lex Fridman (2:37:52.080)

That we've developed

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:37:54.080)

um a car

Lex Fridman (2:37:55.760)

Let us let us ups and fedex take care of

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:37:59.600)

Doing this at scale doing it cheaper doing it better. I mean that's the argument

Lex Fridman (2:38:03.920)

And nasa took what they realized is it took way way too long to do stuff

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:38:08.400)

When you're investing millions if there's billions of dollars into a project

Lex Fridman (2:38:12.880)

the

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:38:13.760)

the bureaucracy builds up

Lex Fridman (2:38:15.760)

And the conservatism builds up to where you're I mean you really have to test everything out

Lex Fridman (2:38:20.240)

So projects take years and then you have somebody like ilan musk coming along and says well, let's do

Lex Fridman (2:38:25.920)

launches every

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:38:27.360)

Every week and as opposed to just throwing away the rocket. We'll reuse the rocket. That was one of the sort of cutting edge inventions

Lex Fridman (2:38:36.000)

It's a dumb obvious idea

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:38:38.800)

Like ilan says why do you throw away the play? It's the equivalent as if you flew a plane every time you threw it away

Lex Fridman (2:38:44.160)

Why are we every time throwing away the plane?

Lex Fridman (2:38:46.480)

But nasa's tried that kind of thing with the space shuttle since the 1970s

Lex Fridman (2:38:50.480)

And yes, well, they did that with the space shuttle, but not not at the scale here that uh, it was the space shuttle was seen as this

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:38:58.160)

like

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:38:59.100)

Majestic amazing thing that requires a huge amount of investment with ilan musk is like no every basic rocket

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:39:06.320)

Should be reusable

Lex Fridman (2:39:07.920)

Nice cut cut cost cut cost. Do you do you think like?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:39:11.280)

Like the more technology we have the more advanced we become the more

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:39:15.740)

Specialized we need to be like is that for that reason that now they they there's different branch

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:39:20.720)

Like you just explained out now that so they're specialized in this but they left, you know other branch

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:39:26.000)

Yeah, there's there's the greater and greater specializations. We build up more stuff, which is fascinating because

Lex Fridman (2:39:32.000)

Is it making us?

Lex Fridman (2:39:34.160)

more

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:39:35.120)

Dumb in a way. Do you think like like like yeah, I don't know like

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:39:39.040)

Like you you know, but I use a cell phone, but I don't know how to build it up from that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:39:44.560)

I mean, it's that beta males building up this whole society

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:39:48.000)

um, because we're this collective intelligence we rely on each other more and more and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:39:54.400)

it

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:39:55.360)

I do also see sort of the rise of conspiracy theories and all those kinds of things

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:39:59.440)

because

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:40:01.840)

Like i've been talking to a few folks about flat earth recently it's fascinating it's fascinating

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:40:07.280)

there's a large community of people that believe the earth is flat and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:40:11.520)

That idea takes hold in this day and age of all the ideas. That's the one that takes hold for a large number of people

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:40:18.240)

and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:40:19.680)

I think that's a consequence of this kind of specialization where it's just a huge amount of experts

Lex Fridman (2:40:25.120)

But if you look out into our world and try to reason simply about our existence

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:40:30.400)

We we are losing the skills to do that because more and more people are specialized as opposed to general thinkers

Lex Fridman (2:40:36.160)

We're like extremely good at specific things. Are we capable now to do?

Lex Fridman (2:40:42.400)

A robot that is self aware

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:40:45.360)

That's that's one the legged one. I uh, it's self aware. It's not self aware

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:40:49.840)

It's been listening, but it's not self aware. But do you think a human being is self aware or that's a good question

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:40:57.360)

I mean I ask this question all the time when the robots move there's a sense of

Lex Fridman (2:41:03.840)

When they turn on

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:41:05.520)

Something entered that robot

Lex Fridman (2:41:07.840)

Wow, and when it turns off something left

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:41:11.440)

Uh if they move in a certain kind of way and if they're if they surprise you there's certain elements that enable us

Lex Fridman (2:41:19.600)

to see the magic in

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:41:21.840)

In a living being and some of them I mean we can care we can maybe list them

Lex Fridman (2:41:27.600)

but it's the ability to surprise you it's the

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:41:30.720)

The ability to make mistakes and learn from them visibly there's a bunch of things that you just

Lex Fridman (2:41:39.360)

I don't know. It just feels

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:41:41.120)

Like it has the magic of what is a living being

Lex Fridman (2:41:44.240)

And which is what humans have and I try to think about how do you replicate that into a machine?

Lex Fridman (2:41:50.480)

So when you turn it on enough you feel like it dies every time and he reborn

Lex Fridman (2:41:55.600)

So for most machines, we don't feel that way. We don't when we unplug things

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:41:59.440)

Things we don't feel that way. I don't know why we don't feel that way. That's an interesting question. But I think when

Lex Fridman (2:42:08.640)

When the robot has certain qualities

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:42:11.920)

like memory

Lex Fridman (2:42:13.840)

Like ability to recognize you

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:42:16.880)

Yeah, you start to feel like you're turning off an organism

Lex Fridman (2:42:19.920)

So so whenever I have like the robots that recognize me

Lex Fridman (2:42:23.440)

And remember this is important that all the things we've experienced together

Lex Fridman (2:42:28.480)

Then it's like holy shit

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:42:30.560)

That's a that's a living thing. But does he remember? It feels like a living thing. Does he remember

Lex Fridman (2:42:36.400)

Your robot does he remember things that happened before you unplugged it? Is it like he's sleeping?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:42:43.360)

Like is he wake up or is he like that? So right now we start to zero everything. Uh, no, it doesn't start at zero

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:42:49.600)

It remembers everything. That's the key. Every time you like you you unplug. Wow

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:42:54.400)

It's storing the memory, but the memories are basic. They're like

Lex Fridman (2:42:57.600)

they're like, okay, we walked around the kitchen and then

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:43:01.760)

Um, you looked at me. I mean the memories it's like data. It's just it's not like we've experienced it's able to actually

Lex Fridman (2:43:08.800)

Uh experience anything deep like we humans can but just the fact of memory

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:43:14.320)

It's like the toaster or the microwave. Don't don't give a shit about me

Lex Fridman (2:43:19.520)

They don't know me. They don't know me by name. They wouldn't recognize my face

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:43:23.440)

As being different from gordon's they wouldn't know the difference and they wouldn't

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:43:28.460)

Remember the microwave currently doesn't remember, you know, the times i've been sad or happy

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:43:34.480)

Like what food I put into it

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:43:36.560)

it doesn't remember this when I was being a fat ass or what I was being in good shape and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:43:41.840)

All just those memories are enough to make you feel when you turn a thing off

Lex Fridman (2:43:46.800)

That's like shit

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:43:48.800)

That's a living that's that that's a living thing disappearing. Of course, that's kind of an anthropomorphism we do to each other

Lex Fridman (2:43:55.760)

But uh, that's something

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:43:58.160)

You know that

Lex Fridman (2:43:59.760)

That's something that makes me believe it's possible to create. Um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:44:05.200)

Systems with which we can have a connection that are nonhuman like similar to dogs and cats and so on

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:44:11.040)

It just makes me and that's what's interesting to me because ultimately I feel like that'll help us understand ourselves

Lex Fridman (2:44:20.160)

And maybe practice grappling moves anyway, um

Lex Fridman (2:44:26.720)

Well, let me ask the uh advice question

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:44:29.760)

Uh, now that we're together i've asked i've spoken to john. I spoke to george

Lex Fridman (2:44:34.720)

What what advice would you give to young folks whether?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:44:38.080)

we're talking about

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:44:39.680)

sport like excelling becoming great at grappling becoming great at fighting become a great at whatever sport they take on or

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:44:47.040)

Life in general whether there may be in high school or in college

Lex Fridman (2:44:50.960)

What advice would you give them to uh, excel?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:44:55.200)

At that thing they take on I don't know if i'm qualified to answer this because i'm only 26

Lex Fridman (2:45:01.200)

So you're at the top you said giving advice to young people. Um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:45:06.160)

for me, I think the two biggest things are

Lex Fridman (2:45:08.160)

Are find something that you're both talented in and you enjoy

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:45:12.880)

um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:45:14.000)

I think that if you enjoy something, but you're terrible at it. It's going to be hard for you to be successful

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:45:19.520)

In life at that given in that given area

Lex Fridman (2:45:22.000)

Um, and it's going to be hard to do something for long amounts of time

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:45:27.120)

Uh if you're talented at it, but you don't enjoy doing it. Um, it's easy to come in

Lex Fridman (2:45:32.800)

and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:45:33.760)

train hard for a month or for two months or for a year, um, you can be very talented at it

Lex Fridman (2:45:39.680)

But if you come in it's but it's a different story to come in

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:45:42.960)

every day for five years in a row for 10 years in a row for 15 years in a row, um, so I think

Lex Fridman (2:45:48.720)

I think finding something that you're both talented in

Lex Fridman (2:45:51.760)

And something you enjoy are probably the two biggest things for me

Lex Fridman (2:45:55.520)

How do you find the joy in it? So you've been training insane amount, you know a lot you've been doing it for a long time

Lex Fridman (2:46:02.240)

Um, is there's is there ways to rediscover the joy in it?

Lex Fridman (2:46:06.080)

Yeah for me initially

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:46:08.160)

It was just learning new stuff, you know

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:46:11.120)

You come in as a white belt and every day you learn you see a different move and you're like, oh man, it's that's awesome

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:46:16.640)

um, and then when I started to compete more seriously towards my professional career it was

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:46:22.880)

Uh the joy of doing camps and seeing the result of those camps and beating high level athletes

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:46:28.480)

Um, and then it got to a point where i'd beaten all the high level athletes already. So

Lex Fridman (2:46:33.840)

Who am I gonna compete against? Um, so now for me the joy is just

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:46:38.880)

being

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:46:39.920)

The best athlete I can possibly be until I reach my pride which i'm hoping is somewhere between 35 and 40

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:46:47.520)

Um, so instead of competing against the other athletes

Lex Fridman (2:46:50.800)

I'll be bored already because I already beat all the rest of the guys

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:46:53.920)

um, but

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:46:55.760)

I know that now I know that I can be better in a year from now or two years from now

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:47:00.400)

Than I am today and that for me is exciting

Lex Fridman (2:47:04.240)

By the way, is there some aspect of teaching that's exciting to you?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:47:07.840)

Yeah, I because you become a better and better teacher over the years. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely uh, I enjoy teaching and

Lex Fridman (2:47:15.360)

I used to teach

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:47:16.640)

um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:47:17.680)

A lot before I met john and then I met john and I was like, yeah, I just have no idea how to teach

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:47:22.480)

Um, so that's like a completely different element, uh of the sport

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:47:26.160)

Um, you know doing things and being good at doing things or being good at winning

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:47:30.320)

uh and actually being able to communicate those skills and knowledge to

Lex Fridman (2:47:34.000)

To a vast amount of people is two completely different things

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:47:38.320)

George advice for young people

Lex Fridman (2:47:40.960)

like yourself

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:47:42.800)

well

Lex Fridman (2:47:44.000)

First I was I would tell them find

Lex Fridman (2:47:47.440)

What you want to become what you want to do?

Lex Fridman (2:47:50.800)

and long term

Lex Fridman (2:47:52.400)

Use certain things maybe sometimes you don't love but where you want to propel yourself in the future?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:47:58.160)

Not what your parent your your friend wants you to become what you you you want to become

Lex Fridman (2:48:04.000)

So one once you find it

Lex Fridman (2:48:07.200)

You cannot

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:48:08.320)

Doing it by yourself everything that are that is big achievement in life. We cannot do it doing it by ourselves

Lex Fridman (2:48:14.960)

so what I would say is second thing is

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:48:17.280)

Try to build up your team and try to build up your team to be able to achieve your goal

Lex Fridman (2:48:23.440)

Of people that are competent

Lex Fridman (2:48:25.920)

And people that you trust

Lex Fridman (2:48:27.920)

You need both competency and trust

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:48:30.560)

I see a lot of people sometime in business. For example, they hire people they that are that they trust but they turns out to be incompetent

Lex Fridman (2:48:38.880)

So now you have to fire a friend or otherwise your business going down the same problem

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:48:43.600)

If you do the opposite you are you're someone that is competent, but you cannot trust is gonna is gonna screw you, you know

Lex Fridman (2:48:49.680)

So it's very important to stay away from the negative build up your team people you trust and that are competent

Lex Fridman (2:48:56.080)

And I would say the third one is to work to work hard to sacrifice yourself

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:49:01.600)

Yeah, you have to go through hell sometime, but yeah, you have to see the light at the end of of it

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:49:06.880)

You know to keep your dream in mind is going to give you the motivation to go through the tough time

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:49:11.440)

It's nothing easy to go work work work. It's nothing you can accomplish without hard work

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:49:17.840)

The fourth one I would say

Lex Fridman (2:49:19.840)

To invest on yourself constantly

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:49:22.480)

If you do not invest on yourself on whatever you are in which business and sport the game will catch up to you

Lex Fridman (2:49:29.360)

For example, if you're if you become

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:49:32.080)

Champion at something and if you stop improving the other guys that are trying to be champion, they're gonna catch up to you

Lex Fridman (2:49:38.640)

So you need to invest on yourself and most people

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:49:42.080)

Most athlete they make the mistake when they start to having money

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:49:45.600)

They buy luxury stuff and that's one thing I didn't do when I start making money

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:49:50.320)

I was investing of on traveling to new york trying with john gordon and the guys to learn

Lex Fridman (2:49:55.760)

What is new in the the game of jiu jitsu? I used to go in thailand train muay thai

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:50:01.040)

In las angeles to perfect my boxing skill

Lex Fridman (2:50:07.760)

So instead of taking that money to buy me jewelry cars and to do what a lot of guys do because it's a mistake

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:50:15.360)

I I invest it on myself because I know there were people coming they don't want my place

Lex Fridman (2:50:19.600)

So I want I didn't want them to catch me

Lex Fridman (2:50:23.040)

And the last one I would say it seems weird I would say

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:50:26.720)

To give back and it's not because i'm a nice guy and it's not that I don't say that to look good. I say that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:50:34.720)

When you you make it

Lex Fridman (2:50:38.720)

It creates opportunity where you can help certain group of people

Lex Fridman (2:50:43.520)

But when I say give back not give back to everybody to anybody give back only to the the cause that you want

Lex Fridman (2:50:50.480)

I give back

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:50:51.840)

Not because i'm a nice guy. I'm kind of it's kind of selfish

Lex Fridman (2:50:54.320)

I only give back to the people that I want to give back

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:50:57.680)

Because I give back to them and I know that if i'm more successful

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:51:01.840)

I'm going to be able to give back to people. I loved the cause that that that count for me

Lex Fridman (2:51:06.880)

So it's it brings me more motivation because I don't compete

Lex Fridman (2:51:11.440)

For myself anymore. I compete to help people. I love in a way

Lex Fridman (2:51:15.840)

So when you you reach the top in your game, you need to find new motivation if you're satisfied is

Lex Fridman (2:51:22.560)

The end of it your success will go down. So you need to

Lex Fridman (2:51:26.560)

To find new motivation. What can motivate you? You know, what do you want?

Lex Fridman (2:51:30.160)

Oh, I want to help this so I need to to be successful. I want to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:51:34.000)

You know, you need to find reason who what you want to do with your success

Lex Fridman (2:51:38.640)

So when I say give back it's not because i'm not because i'm necessarily it's not to be to look like a nice guy

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:51:44.160)

To keep your motivation

Lex Fridman (2:51:46.320)

to be able to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:51:47.840)

Keep climbing the ladder even more

Lex Fridman (2:51:49.840)

That's beautiful, george, uh, john

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:51:53.360)

Um, first off the two responses given so far covered. I think the most important things already. Um,

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:52:01.040)

Gordon talked about the the need for an underlying passion and enjoyment if you don't have that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:52:07.920)

You're not going to have the longevity that is required in order to build

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:52:12.080)

Skills, which is ultimately everything's going to come down to your ability to build skills

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:52:15.680)

You've got to have some kind of underlying passion and enjoyment which will keep you in the game long enough

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:52:21.040)

To build world championship skills. It's going to take a minimum of five years and quite possibly considerably longer than that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:52:28.160)

Um, george talked about the idea of community. You're not going to make it by yourself

Lex Fridman (2:52:33.280)

So you've got to be able to build people around you and uh, and build a trusting environment

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:52:38.400)

Around you to develop those skills. Um,

Lex Fridman (2:52:40.960)

What I would add to the the excellent points that both already raised

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:52:46.080)

Alludes to what I said at the start of this podcast. You've got to be able to identify

Lex Fridman (2:52:51.200)

some kind of undervalued

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:52:54.060)

Elements in whatever industry you're in and show the world what their true value is

Lex Fridman (2:52:59.920)

in addition

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:53:01.600)

You can't go through life

Lex Fridman (2:53:04.240)

Doing the same things as everybody else

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:53:06.560)

Go through life doing the same things as everybody else

Lex Fridman (2:53:11.120)

And expecting to get different results

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:53:13.520)

This is straightforwardly irrational and worse. It's even arrogant

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:53:17.520)

It's essentially the statement that i'm going to do the same thing as everyone else, but I believe i'm different

Lex Fridman (2:53:23.760)

And so they'll work for me

Lex Fridman (2:53:25.840)

But they didn't work for everyone else

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:53:27.920)

That's like saying no i'm special

Lex Fridman (2:53:30.240)

No, you're not special. We're all pretty much the same

Lex Fridman (2:53:33.200)

And um in order to be special you're going to have to exhibit skills that other people simply don't have

Lex Fridman (2:53:40.960)

um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:53:42.960)

Thirdly I would say if you want to become something truly impressive in life

Lex Fridman (2:53:47.840)

You've got to be able to focus on one or two things

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:53:51.680)

That you do better than anyone else in your industry

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:53:54.080)

You can't learn everything but you can take one or two skills and the more innovative those skills are the better

Lex Fridman (2:54:01.920)

And you can truly excel at them. For example at the peak of his career

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:54:06.960)

No one in the world was better than george saint pierre at integrating striking and takedowns

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:54:12.640)

No one in the world was better at integrating grappling and striking on the ground

Lex Fridman (2:54:17.600)

He had two things that he could confidently say

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:54:20.640)

He could confidently say he was the best in the world at was he the best at every mma skill? Nope

Lex Fridman (2:54:27.120)

but he was

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:54:28.460)

Absolutely the best at those two skills and those two skills were skills which he used throughout his career to win

Lex Fridman (2:54:34.560)

the vast majority of his matches

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:54:36.880)

Gordon ryan at the onset of his career could confidently say there's no one in the world better than me at leg locks

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:54:44.160)

He could also say there's no one better in the world than me at late stage defense

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:54:48.020)

to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:54:50.260)

Submission holds across the board as he went through his career. He started adding more and more elements

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:54:56.740)

It's gotten to an extraordinary degree now where you could absolutely say he's the best at guard passing the best at guard retention

Lex Fridman (2:55:03.540)

the list just keeps going on and that goes back to what

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:55:06.900)

um

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:55:08.100)

Gordon said earlier about keeping things interesting over time because we're always introducing new skill sets the day you start saying

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:55:14.820)

I'm satisfied with my skill set is the day you get bored

Lex Fridman (2:55:19.060)

and bored boredom to an athlete is a precursor to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:55:24.020)

Death by boredom

Lex Fridman (2:55:26.500)

As long as you're still growing in those directions you'll stay in the game

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:55:30.500)

For very long periods of time. So the main thing I would add to these

Lex Fridman (2:55:35.780)

statements by gordon and george is this idea of

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:55:39.140)

Of finding something which is currently undervalued and showing the world what its true value is

Lex Fridman (2:55:46.560)

Understanding

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:55:47.860)

That you can't just use the same training methodologies as everyone else and somehow expect to be different from everyone else. You've got to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:55:55.860)

Almost every great rise in human civilization whether it be groups of people or individuals

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:56:01.540)

Required some kind of innovation. You've got to look for that new angle

Lex Fridman (2:56:05.780)

Okay, george st. Pierre found it with shoe boxing early on in his career

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:56:09.940)

Gordon ryan found it with leg locks early on in his career and they branched out from that from that angle

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:56:18.100)

Add to this the idea that you want to become the absolute best in the world in your industry

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:56:24.980)

In one or two things that make a difference

Lex Fridman (2:56:27.940)

Find out what they are and focus on those things and you'll go far

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:56:32.100)

John

Lex Fridman (2:56:34.660)

Gordon george, this is an incredible conversation. Thank you so much for your

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:56:39.220)

Extremely valuable time george as somebody who's become famous in part

Lex Fridman (2:56:44.660)

By commenting on people's performance

Lex Fridman (2:56:47.540)

Um, how do you think we did?

Lex Fridman (2:56:51.060)

How would you evaluate our performance today?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:56:54.500)

I'm not impressed by

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:56:56.500)

Yeah, thank you. I loved it. I learned all the time. I've talked to you guys. I'm

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:57:02.500)

It's it's great. I loved it

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:57:04.660)

I was very stimulated. I and really enjoyed it. Yeah, it's uh, it was it was something

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:57:10.660)

I really was looking forward to I was hoping that would get together

Lex Fridman (2:57:14.020)

It's so rare that at the same time in history

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:57:17.140)

There will be some of the greats together and the fact that you guys would be willing to come together and talk like this

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:57:21.540)

This is awesome. And that gordon he would even wear a cowboy hat. I mean, this is just historic

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:57:26.660)

This is like church. You're all getting together with whoever, you know, this is great and all

Lex Fridman (2:57:30.580)

But the next one is just going to be us just quizzing john on which animals would win in fights. Yes for the whole three hours

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:57:37.060)

It'll be just so we'll invite joe and you'll just be we'll we'll make it a systematic

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:57:41.860)

It'll be a debate between joe and john on which animal would win. John and I we have a thing that we send each other

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:57:47.620)

Footage all the time of animal fight where we are, uh, very intrigue about animal fight

Lex Fridman (2:57:57.220)

I get them like 3 30 am on it. He's like check this out

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:58:01.060)

Like a rhino taking a like a pig like

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:58:05.140)

Literally, it's not always fair. No, no, it's not ever but interesting stuff if you people would see what we send

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:58:12.100)

The stuff that we they would judge you harshly. Yeah

Lex Fridman (2:58:15.220)

Harshly. Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right. Thanks so much guys. This is awesome

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:58:20.500)

Thanks for listening to this conversation with george saint pierre john donahue and gordon ryan to support this podcast

Lex Fridman (2:58:27.860)

Please check out our sponsors in the description

Lex Fridman (2:58:30.740)

And now let me leave you some words from miyamoto musashi

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:58:35.700)

There's nothing outside yourself that can ever enable you to get better stronger richer quicker or smarter

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:58:43.220)

Everything is within everything exists

Lex Fridman (2:58:46.820)

Seek nothing outside of yourself

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (2:58:48.820)

Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (30:06.060)

You'd probably be thinking of probably someone who's really technically advanced

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (30:10.820)

Actually, it was Mark Coleman. Oh, no, Kevin Randleman and Phil Barone

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (30:16.180)

He used to love watching that was a hammer house. That was his favorite. He would love those guys and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (30:22.900)

whenever their fights were on georgie watching the hammer house crew and

Lex Fridman (30:27.980)

It's funny what you said about how those guys bought an intensity to

Lex Fridman (30:33.620)

To MMA that was off the charts. Have you ever met those guys in?

Lex Fridman (30:38.340)

And in their prime, let me tell you it was it was something to behold and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (30:42.260)

I had this crazy larger than life personality

Lex Fridman (30:47.260)

Most of the things I did made no sense whatsoever

Lex Fridman (30:49.620)

But I mean technically but that was their appeal and they were these guys and George loved to watch them more than anyone else

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (30:56.120)

You never know what what could happen with these guys. I remember when Mark Coleman won the Pride Grand Prix

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (31:01.220)

I was in my living room. I was jumping I was so happy. I was like, yeah

Lex Fridman (31:04.780)

Yeah, he beat Igor Vorchevchin. That was like I like for to me. It was amazing. You know what I mean?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (31:12.260)

Because of the emotion that they brought into the fight George is actually very

Lex Fridman (31:17.740)

interested by something you said that normally when I

Lex Fridman (31:21.940)

Ask what is the appeal of a given fighter?

Lex Fridman (31:25.180)

And what makes people watch a fight you talked about the idea that fighters entertain us and that's absolutely correct that they are

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (31:32.260)

It's this weird weird industry where you're you're

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (31:37.420)

Both an athlete and an entertainer and you need to be successful in both regards to become

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (31:43.740)

financially successful insofar as

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (31:47.300)

Your favorite athletes to watch at least were people who are almost like the polar opposite of who you are

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (31:55.260)

I've always said that most people if you look at

Lex Fridman (31:58.700)

Say a million people watch a pay per view event

Lex Fridman (32:03.500)

What percentage of those million people have a genuine?

Lex Fridman (32:08.180)

technical understanding of what's happening as they watch a fight

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (32:12.980)

It's tiny

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (32:15.380)

It's absolutely tiny the vast majority of people who watch a professional fight have almost no

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (32:23.420)

technical understanding of

Lex Fridman (32:25.420)

What's going on in front of them? So how do they relate to the fight? What's the only way they can?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (32:31.780)

it's through emotion and

Lex Fridman (32:34.460)

So when they get a sense that these two don't like each other then they can relate to the fight

Lex Fridman (32:40.340)

But only a tiny percentage of people watching a given professional fight can relate to it on a technical level

Lex Fridman (32:46.820)

The overwhelming majority will always form an emotional attachment to the fight

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (32:51.420)

That's why when you see things shows that USC primetime, they never focus on

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (32:57.060)

tactics and the techniques of the fight they focus on the emotional elements the

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (33:01.660)

Preparation the view of their own family members as athletes get ready

Lex Fridman (33:05.220)

It's always an emotional pull because that's how 99 percent of the viewers

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (33:09.980)

Relate to the fight if I haven't think about chess, okay, if I have minimal knowledge of two world champions

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (33:17.220)

Coming to fight each other in it or match up against each other in a game of chess

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (33:22.420)

I know so little about chess tactics and I can't really form any kind of technical

Lex Fridman (33:29.220)

appreciation of what's going on on the board

Lex Fridman (33:31.620)

But if you tell me that these two chess players hate each other's guts and they've got a rivalry which goes back five years

Lex Fridman (33:37.020)

And they've said this and that about each other in public then suddenly on my ears break up and I'm like, oh, okay

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (33:42.660)

This sounds interesting

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (33:44.660)

because I just don't have the the knowledge to appreciate what's going on on the board and a chess game to be able to

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (33:51.980)

to appreciate the

Lex Fridman (33:53.900)

The technical nuances of what they're doing. So any

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (33:57.860)

Interest that I have in the chess match is going to have to come from some kind of emotional level because I'm just not qualified

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (34:03.140)

To make technical assessments and that's exactly how it is in the case of both grappling and mixed martial arts

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (34:09.260)

That's why the ones who evoke the most attention are always the ones who can form some kind of emotional appeal

Lex Fridman (34:15.380)

Conor McGregor was the all time master of this. I

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (34:18.460)

believe also

Lex Fridman (34:20.900)

Emotion can be used as a weapon

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (34:23.780)

For example, I've learned I've learned this from my favorite boxer is sugar a Leonard

Lex Fridman (34:29.380)

Sugar a Leonard. I remember I was very young

Lex Fridman (34:31.860)

So I watched his fight later when I was older, but I know that sugar a Leonard

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (34:36.380)

Was the best boxer of his era to me personally and I don't think nobody could beat him

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (34:43.780)

I think it was skill skill wise it was the best. However, when he fought in Montreal Roberto Duran

Lex Fridman (34:51.620)

Roberto Duran

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (34:55.700)

Made it in a way that Leonard became very emotional he wanted to stand in front of Duran and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (35:01.780)

fight a different fight that that he normally does because he wanted to show that he's a man and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (35:09.140)

He lost that fight, which was a mistake

Lex Fridman (35:12.140)

so by

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (35:13.860)

Then later on he beat Roberto Duran in quite easy, you know, the if the fair everybody remember the no mask thing

Lex Fridman (35:21.460)

but my point is

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (35:23.460)

Emotion can be used in a way that it can make your derail your opponent out of his game plan

Lex Fridman (35:32.300)

And I felt a lot of my opponent trying to do that with me. So that's why I never got involved

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (35:37.500)

that was my way to defend myself against

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (35:41.100)

Some kind of bullying is to put like a like a shield in front but some other guy like

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (35:47.020)

Gordon he expressed himself differently. Of course, there's a language barrier, but for him he's better

Lex Fridman (35:53.180)

at

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (35:54.460)

Given giving giving back that says he's a better counter attacker, you know

Lex Fridman (35:58.460)

that's the way you respond to to to the aggression of

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (36:02.540)

An emotional attack. I think everybody is different in that regards. What's interesting that John said that he doesn't

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (36:11.780)

Study the tactics of this game or maybe you're not interested in the tactics of this game

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (36:16.900)

Because it seems like this is more than just being an entertainer

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (36:19.860)

It seems like it could be an effective part of the match. Yeah, I just feel like whatever investment you make in that is

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (36:27.900)

It's going to get negligible rewards first of all, it's probably only going to pertain to one match in front of you rather than the

Lex Fridman (36:33.500)

totality of your career and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (36:36.020)

Whatever gains you get out of psychological trickery and play

Lex Fridman (36:41.900)

Typically

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (36:43.900)

Don't last long you you've raised an excellent example with sugar rate Leonard. He did fight outside of his usual

Lex Fridman (36:51.820)

manner in that regard, but rather than me try to tell someone hey

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (36:56.940)

Behave like this before a fight

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (36:58.540)

I would have been probably more forceful between rounds with an athlete and say no

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (37:02.980)

No, you're fighting this fight the wrong way and that would have a much

Lex Fridman (37:06.940)

more

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (37:08.020)

beneficial impact on my athletes and

Lex Fridman (37:10.060)

Psychological trickery before a fight. I believe another example of

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (37:16.100)

Emotion that leads to failure is a

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (37:19.060)

Jose Aldo against Connor McGregor. I think it was it was on purpose that Connor McGregor

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (37:26.500)

Did this try to bait Aldo to become over aggressive to open himself because he's an excellent counter puncher puncher

Lex Fridman (37:34.140)

That's what I believe. It made a mistake

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (37:36.460)

There's another great one my match against cyborg

Lex Fridman (37:40.060)

2018 no gi worlds where he didn't even try to win

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (37:43.340)

He just like wanted to smack me in the face the whole time cuz he was so angry

Lex Fridman (37:46.460)

I was talking shit to him before the match and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (37:49.260)

It was like the finals of the absolute it was like the biggest

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (37:52.260)

Match of the weekend and he just didn't even try to pass my guard or do anything

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (37:55.900)

He just wanted to hit me in the face and I was like sick. I just won

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (37:59.700)

It was incredibly fresh. It's fascinating to watch like a grown man sort of lose

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (38:04.940)

composure

Lex Fridman (38:05.940)

Yeah

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (38:06.940)

Gordon one thing I've always been very impressed with you and that's

Lex Fridman (38:13.820)

No matter how heated talk gets

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (38:17.180)

Before a match with you when you go out to grapple. You're absolutely cold

Lex Fridman (38:22.900)

Like I've you've never gone into a match

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (38:26.420)

carrying anything other than just cold blooded calculation and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (38:30.820)

You've always been able to separate very well the idea of words and deeds. And I think that's always been one of your

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (38:39.220)

One of your strongest assets a way I often measure this is when a match is over

Lex Fridman (38:44.460)

I will ask the athlete questions about the match and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (38:49.180)

If they can't answer the question, what were you doing in the fourth minute? Okay

Lex Fridman (38:53.460)

What was that set up you used in in the third minute?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (38:56.260)

They got you into the Kimura law if they can't answer that that tells me they were just fighting on instincts and emotion

Lex Fridman (39:03.500)

But with Gordon, it's like a logbook

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (39:07.260)

It's like okay in the seventh minute you went for that

Lex Fridman (39:10.420)

Judy Gatami set up from from on the left side

Lex Fridman (39:14.140)

What were you thinking? He can always give an answer. He's absolutely stone cold

Lex Fridman (39:20.660)

Speaking of emotion

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (39:22.660)

Speaking of emotion Gordon you will potentially if you're healthy face Andre Galvao and the ADCC

Lex Fridman (39:31.540)

coming up super fight

Lex Fridman (39:33.780)

Who is Andre Galvao for people who don't know? Can you tell the story of your beef with?

Lex Fridman (39:39.940)

The the emotional interaction with a man. Yeah, so Andre is

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (39:45.860)

He's considered the greatest ADCC competitor of all time

Lex Fridman (39:50.020)

multiple time black belt world champion

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (39:52.020)

winningest ADCC champion ever he has six six gold medals and

Lex Fridman (39:57.540)

I've been trying to compete against him

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (40:00.300)

Pretty much forever like since I got my black belt in 2016. I've been trying to get matches with him

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (40:05.460)

he was in the first DBI that I did and he ended up pulling out and that I've been trying to get matches with him and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (40:12.060)

He would always say no and give one reason or another and then

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (40:16.300)

After the last ADCC, I was like, hey Andre said he was retiring after this after this

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (40:23.940)

This competition so if he wants to retire, you know, he's he's the greatest ADCC competitor of all time

Lex Fridman (40:29.660)

And I think it's great. But if he wants to compete and that's great. I was like super nice and then he started like

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (40:35.940)

posting like passive aggressive Instagram

Lex Fridman (40:39.820)

Captions and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (40:41.220)

then we started going back and forth in the internet and there was like one point where I saw him in person when he

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (40:47.940)

Acknowledged he's like I understand like what you're doing like we're gonna pump this fight up and he was like totally on board

Lex Fridman (40:52.260)

but then there must have been something that happened where like it changed from like him like going along with it to being like

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (40:57.620)

Actually pissed and then there was that one night at flow where I went to go shake his hand

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (41:01.980)

I mean he flipped me off and then he followed me backstage and started to try to fight me and then I smacked him and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (41:07.220)

Then he didn't want to fight anymore and then we've been going back. He's actually blocked me on Instagram now

Lex Fridman (41:13.500)

So he just won't engage no one from Atos will engage now

Lex Fridman (41:17.020)

But it's gonna be interesting how he how he shows up if he can keep it under control or not

Lex Fridman (41:21.460)

Do you think how do you explain that level of emotion? Is this fear of losing your throne?

Lex Fridman (41:26.860)

Is it or is it just a human being like with the cyborg just

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (41:31.180)

Just becoming emotionally unstable. Well, it might just be me

Lex Fridman (41:34.660)

I just have a way to get and get under people's skin. It's just I don't know

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (41:38.300)

He's he's he was he was cool for a while and then I just I don't know it just

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (41:43.180)

Then everyone gets like this. They're all so emotional by the time they actually step up to compete that it's pretty easy to read them

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (41:48.940)

They're either so emotional that they want to actually come forward and and beat me like like Tim Sprague's is a perfect example at

Lex Fridman (41:54.900)

ADCC I posted like

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (41:57.660)

On my story on Instagram like ten minutes before a match

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (42:00.360)

I said like what I'm gonna do to Tim Sprague's is gonna be criminal and he's like a very stally guy and he came

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (42:06.820)

He saw that and then he came out and actually tried to fight me

Lex Fridman (42:09.220)

Like he came and actually engaged my guard and I ended up submitting him

Lex Fridman (42:12.140)

So it either has that effect or it has the effect where they know I've talked so much shit leading up to the match

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (42:17.820)

That they're so afraid to lose that they just get super stally and they move away

Lex Fridman (42:22.100)

So either has one effect where they come forward and they want to they want to beat me beat me or they want to just

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (42:26.940)

They're so afraid of getting submitted that they know if they engage they're super cagey and they just back away and don't really do anything

Lex Fridman (42:32.780)

Do you think this match happens?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (42:35.500)

There's a lot of variables and what I have to see how my stomach is and to if I'm actually gonna show up and compete

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (42:41.100)

My stomach's healthy. I doubt that Andre will actually show up to compete

Lex Fridman (42:44.900)

I've been trying to compete against him for six years and he hasn't done it

Lex Fridman (42:48.260)

So there's no reason to think he would now is it possible for you to speak to where like your estimates are about your stomach?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (42:54.340)

Or is it too unclear for now still too early to tell I have this round of treatment that I'm doing until late February

Lex Fridman (43:00.780)

And I'm pretty sure that I need to do the same test

Lex Fridman (43:03.420)

They did initially to retest all my levels and then go from there

Lex Fridman (43:07.020)

So I've been feeling a little bit better. Like it's not nearly as bad as it used to be

Lex Fridman (43:11.340)

I was explaining to someone the other day like for the last four years

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (43:15.180)

I would be so nauseous that every time I would walk into a new room

Lex Fridman (43:18.660)

I'd have to actively locate a garbage can in case I have to throw up

Lex Fridman (43:22.640)

So I'm like one step above that right now. I'm like doing a little bit better than that

Lex Fridman (43:26.280)

So it's definitely getting a little bit better, but it's not it's not where it needs to be

Lex Fridman (43:30.680)

Can we talk about diet for just a sec because both of you George and and Gordon?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (43:36.960)

Like suffered from stomach issues different kind and have arrived for now for different places

Lex Fridman (43:44.180)

so can you maybe George speak to

Lex Fridman (43:46.480)

The general question of what is the best diet for performance for training like what have you learned through your career about this?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (43:54.160)

Well, I think everybody is different

Lex Fridman (43:57.040)

to me personally

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (44:00.040)

I implement fasting

Lex Fridman (44:03.600)

Time restricted eating and and prolonged fasting

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (44:07.240)

What's the longest you've done so far? The longest I've done is five days. I do it quite often

Lex Fridman (44:12.160)

I do I do four times a year. I do

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (44:14.480)

three to five days

Lex Fridman (44:17.280)

water fast

Lex Fridman (44:19.280)

And I liked it. It helps me with inflammation. I think it boosts the immune system and

Lex Fridman (44:26.040)

That this about the I read papers about about this and I it helps me also feel

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (44:33.160)

Feel good. It's kind of

Lex Fridman (44:35.160)

Tera very therapeutic to physical and mental just mental

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (44:38.720)

It meant mental and physical because when I eat my when I break my fast and I sit at the table with with other people

Lex Fridman (44:46.720)

It doesn't matter what I eat if we all eat the same thing. I always tell them

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (44:51.080)

I said my food right now tastes better than all of yours, you know, because I you know, I I have that this

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (44:59.560)

thing that I think I believe sometimes you need to put yourself into suffering to realize how

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (45:05.900)

How

Lex Fridman (45:07.500)

Pleasurable something is and I

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (45:11.820)

Tent

Lex Fridman (45:13.340)

Personally like diet wise I eat whatever I want

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (45:17.060)

Whenever I want, I don't I no longer have any problem with this

Lex Fridman (45:21.420)

but if I would have a competition coming up like

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (45:25.180)

Knowing that I what I know now about my body I would

Lex Fridman (45:29.180)

orient myself

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (45:31.020)

more towards an animal based diet

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (45:33.500)

That's because I've tried different things and that's the kind of diet that I believe helped me

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (45:40.420)

Having less inflammation and feel better in terms of performance for for for doing something physical

Lex Fridman (45:46.540)

So high protein high fat low carbs

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (45:49.540)

well

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (45:50.940)

This is is different between animal based diet and keto. I mean there is carbs. There is a lot of fruit

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (45:57.460)

I got a lot of the the carbs from the fruit

Lex Fridman (46:00.580)

Okay, a lot of organs organs. I

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (46:05.500)

Know a little bit about paleontology and in the past

Lex Fridman (46:10.940)

About you a prehistoric human and and I I know that

Lex Fridman (46:14.860)

And not not only about that. I know because I have travels a certain place in the world

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (46:19.820)

I want to visit the Maasai in Africa the hunter gatherer tribe and I know that when they kill an animal

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (46:25.940)

They go for the organs first and I know a pretty most predatory animal. They do the same thing

Lex Fridman (46:31.480)

So organs I believe is something that normally in our culture in the western part of the world

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (46:37.400)

We don't really eat but it's something that is very nutritious

Lex Fridman (46:41.280)

Have you been able to convince Gordon to try fasting?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (46:46.040)

Talk about diets

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (46:48.360)

It's a different situation. I think for Gordon because he's an heavyweight. He doesn't want to lose weight

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (46:53.300)

You know when the heavyweight the range of like my range was like I was a welterweight and middleweight

Lex Fridman (46:59.440)

But the heavyweight it's like some of the guys that you compete can compete against their it might be 300 pounds. So if you lose weight

Lex Fridman (47:07.440)

It's a it's a big problem. You know what I mean?

Lex Fridman (47:09.560)

So and there is things that will work for me that might not works for Gordon, you know

Lex Fridman (47:14.360)

So we have to make his own experience and and I told Gordon sometime when everybody goes left

Lex Fridman (47:18.640)

You try to go right see how you feel with certain things experiment

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (47:22.500)

Not not a topic

Lex Fridman (47:25.260)

That's part of your optimization

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (47:27.740)

Optimal performance formula. Well what I used to do before my stomach issues and for those of you listening who don't know I had

Lex Fridman (47:34.420)

recurring staph infections in

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (47:36.460)

2018 and I took a bunch of oral antibiotics and it just completely wiped out my stomach

Lex Fridman (47:41.400)

So I just was diagnosed. It was misdiagnosed as gastroparesis

Lex Fridman (47:45.780)

So for those of you messaging me on Instagram who are just watching Rogan asking me about my gastroparesis. That's not what I have

Lex Fridman (47:51.660)

They misdiagnosed it and I did some other tests and for four years

Lex Fridman (47:56.500)

I didn't even know what it was and then I got this I went to this doctor in California who?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (48:02.060)

Diagnosed me with H. Pylori and then a fungal and a bacterial overgrowth in my small intestines. So the issues in the small intestines

Lex Fridman (48:10.000)

so what I used to do was I used to do like

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (48:12.540)

Seasons where I'd have a very clean season where I was competing and I would have a lower body weight

Lex Fridman (48:18.180)

And I would do like an offseason kind of like a bodybuilder where I would eat a lot more food and a little bit

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (48:23.100)

Dirtier food and I would have cheeseburgers and pizza at nighttime to have the extra calories

Lex Fridman (48:27.980)

But now I can't eat those foods because they upset my stomach

Lex Fridman (48:30.620)

So now I pretty much just try to eat whatever I can and maintain the weight the best I can

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (48:35.060)

Based on how my stomach feels. So right now it's like rice chicken eggs fish

Lex Fridman (48:41.700)

vegetables fruits and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (48:43.620)

Pretty much nothing else like anything hard to digest

Lex Fridman (48:45.700)

Anything spicy red meat fast food all that's all that's hard for me

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (48:52.540)

Which sucks because in Texas things? Yeah barbecue

Lex Fridman (48:57.460)

And I mean this diet is really important for you John I can tell

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (49:02.420)

Like is it is that something you think about for athletes at all again, that's part of the I've to be honest with you

Lex Fridman (49:09.540)

I've never seen any

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (49:11.900)

measurable

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (49:13.140)

Improvement in sports performance in jiu jitsu by change of diet. I do believe that diet is important for longevity and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (49:21.460)

Human beings and I do think it makes a difference, especially once you get past the age of 40

Lex Fridman (49:26.580)

with regards longevity

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (49:28.820)

For older athletes. I do believe it makes some difference. But my observation is in athletes and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (49:35.140)

In their youth and working up into their prime. I've seen athletes have the worst

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (49:41.140)

diets

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (49:42.900)

God bless Travis Stevens for that guy won Olympic silver medal basically on McDonald's and candy. Yeah

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (49:50.020)

George St. Pierre for 80% of your career. You were powered by McDonald's and coca cola

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (49:55.380)

To Gina Alfredo. That was my yeah, my meal of choice before a championship fight

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (50:01.060)

Gordon for him his youth was just five guys hamburgers Gary Tonin the same thing

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (50:06.340)

I've worked with Japanese judo players who smoked a pack of cigarettes a day and won Olympic gold medals

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (50:11.980)

I've worked with Russian wrestlers who just ate

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (50:18.500)

Whatever was put in front of them and their athletic performance was outstanding

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (50:24.220)

I've worked with other guys who did have what would be considered a very clean diet and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (50:28.600)

Their performance was no better than anyone else on the mat. So I've never I've never seen someone say

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (50:34.820)

Okay, I changed my diet and because of that there was a measurable

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (50:39.460)

Improvement, you know in sports performance another way to phrase it though is I have noticed with a lot of lead athletes what they eat

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (50:47.980)

They begin to believe that that either is not a hindrance or it's actually good

Lex Fridman (50:53.020)

Like Travis Stevenson is an example of somebody who eats shitty

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (50:57.420)

Because he believes it's like it's like a power because whatever he's traveling across the world

Lex Fridman (51:03.220)

He can't rely on healthy good food to be there

Lex Fridman (51:05.820)

So I'm going to eat shitty so that that's the like my body knows how to perform under whatever skittles or whatever

Lex Fridman (51:12.500)

Everywhere's got McDonald's everywhere's got McDonald's

Lex Fridman (51:14.820)

So that makes like and they've convinced themselves and you talk about Russian athletes. A lot of them have very

Lex Fridman (51:21.780)

Strong beliefs about like this

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (51:24.660)

Particular food being good for them, but there's no agreement among them. Exactly. No agreement. Yeah

Lex Fridman (51:29.980)

Yeah, so believe is more important than the actual time. Yeah

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (51:32.780)

I'm sorry if I can after

Lex Fridman (51:36.900)

You know after a night out when you're hanging over I

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (51:41.540)

Think the best thing and and I'm saying this and all certain sincerity

Lex Fridman (51:45.540)

I think the best thing to eat to me was like like a cheese cheeseburgers with

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (51:51.300)

We call that a puts in back home because it's very fat. It's greasy. So it up so the next day

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (51:57.800)

When you wake up, I think you feel better because it absorbed the outcome. There you go. I'm

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (52:05.120)

My mom told me the same story once and then I try it was like I was hung over for some party and

Lex Fridman (52:10.880)

I woke up. I was like probably I don't know 19 or 20 I woke up and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (52:15.600)

My mom's like, yeah, just have it have a cheeseburger go go eat something greasy and I did and I was like

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (52:20.720)

Oh, I feel kind of better now. I do not know that science the exact science behind it

Lex Fridman (52:25.280)

but I I always notice and I don't know if it's placebo, but I always notice that if I

Lex Fridman (52:32.280)

I'm if I party hard and I've been drinking a lot

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (52:35.800)

If I don't eat before I go into bed if I don't eat

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (52:38.720)

Shitty food the next day will wake up and feel worse than if I eat shitty food. I feel better

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (52:44.200)

I know it sounds crazy. I don't know why but it works for me

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (52:47.840)

Yeah, but it's also hard to do science on extreme performers so the discussions we're having is amongst the very

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (52:53.840)

You know that this might not apply to a general like recreational athlete, but for the elite

Lex Fridman (52:59.440)

I've just seen champions in every kind of combat sport and I've never seen a

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (53:04.040)

Correlation between dietary habit and performance and people under the age of 30. I do believe that diet is important for longevity. However, and

Lex Fridman (53:12.800)

For that alone it may well be worth investing time in it

Lex Fridman (53:16.080)

But with regards sports performance at least in jiu jitsu, I've never seen any significant difference

Lex Fridman (53:21.440)

Well, we had a little bit of a difference of opinion on this

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (53:25.040)

I think what about strength training and muscle building or at least we had a discussion about this

Lex Fridman (53:29.840)

So what do you believe is the value of?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (53:33.760)

Of you know training outside of the sport so fitness

Lex Fridman (53:38.560)

Lifting heavy lifting explosive all kinds of lifting

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (53:42.080)

Personally for me, I believe and I've learned that from from John

Lex Fridman (53:48.000)

I used to do like

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (53:50.560)

To train like a bodybuilder before because I thought in my early days of competition

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (53:56.160)

That was the most efficient way to do things to because it was like I was watching Jean Claude Van Damme

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (54:03.040)

Arnold Schwarzenegger, we thought back back in the day. That was the thing

Lex Fridman (54:07.200)

That that's how we should do it, you know for to get ready for a fight

Lex Fridman (54:12.000)

But I realized later on

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (54:15.920)

That it's all about efficiency and some guys they don't lift at all and they're doing pretty well, so I

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (54:24.480)

Do cross training mostly for longevity

Lex Fridman (54:28.240)

It's mostly for a therapeutic

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (54:30.800)

Like a therapy. It's more therapeutic than

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (54:33.520)

For performance is to keep my body healthy to do a certain movement that are different than what I do every day in the gym

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (54:40.080)

in combat sport to keep me

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (54:44.560)

Healthy and and athletic so all the interesting movement stuff that you've done outside the sport that was for

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (54:51.440)

Therapeutic mostly therapeutic. I think it does it could

Lex Fridman (54:55.120)

Transcend to performance, but it's mostly therapeutic. I do not believe that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (54:59.840)

Squatting five plates or bench bench pressing three plate will make me a better fighter

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (55:06.720)

I do not I believe actually it could hurt me more. It could damage me more than than benefit me

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (55:13.680)

so

Lex Fridman (55:14.880)

Gordon as somebody who on instagram posts

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (55:18.080)

A lot of pictures of you being shredded and huge

Lex Fridman (55:21.680)

What's the value of of strength? So I do like a combination

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (55:25.600)

John got us big into like gymnastics type movements like toes to bar and muscle ups and things like that when we were young

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (55:33.120)

Like toes to bar because that's like the exact motion you have to do when you're retaining guard it needs to chest

Lex Fridman (55:38.880)

So I do a lot of that stuff

Lex Fridman (55:41.120)

In combination with I do a lot of

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (55:43.680)

Opposite of george. I do a lot of bodybuilding workouts

Lex Fridman (55:46.880)

Where I do like a basic split like a chest to chest

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (55:50.480)

Triceps back and biceps day. Um, and my idea is that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (55:59.600)

Weight lifting should always be a supplement to jiu jitsu. So you shouldn't be missing a jiu jitsu session to lift weights

Lex Fridman (56:06.960)

So I don't do I do probably I train jiu jitsu every day and I lift three to four times a week

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (56:12.400)

Um, I feel like lifting seven days a week for me is is too much and the lifting takes a lot of energy

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (56:17.200)

When you do like hard lifts like that, um, but my idea is if you want to get good at jiu jitsu

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (56:21.600)

Do jiu jitsu and if you want to be bigger and stronger lift weights and uh, and eat food and um,

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (56:29.040)

I I generally don't go super heavy when I lift because you start putting crazy weights then start tearing muscles and stuff

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (56:35.040)

Um, so I usually do moderate weights with a with a very high rep rep range like four sets of 20 with

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (56:39.680)

a drop set at the end to fatigue the muscles break the fibers and

Lex Fridman (56:43.520)

grow

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (56:44.720)

Okay, so four sets of 20 that's interesting. So that that's more for endurance and raw strength

Lex Fridman (56:50.800)

yeah, and also I think

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (56:52.800)

close to the competition i'll pick the intensity up and

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (56:56.080)

While there's no real way to get significant gains in vo2 max. I think that lifting

Lex Fridman (57:02.160)

And just getting used to mentally redlining

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (57:05.040)

Um gets me kind of in competition shape because a lot of times in jiu jitsu the guys i'm training with

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (57:11.040)

They're not on a technical level

Lex Fridman (57:13.040)

where they can

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (57:14.720)

Physically exhaust me to the point where I feel like i'm going to die

Lex Fridman (57:17.360)

But uh, I get most of that like when i'm wrestling because i'm not as efficient in wrestling

Lex Fridman (57:20.960)

So I get a lot more tired

Lex Fridman (57:22.560)

Um and lifting when you do like if you do like four sets of 20

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (57:26.480)

Leg press to squat and you go back and forth like you're like about to die at the end

Lex Fridman (57:30.400)

And I think I feel like gets me in the mental habit of redlining before competition. But does muscle help you?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (57:37.440)

It's like the actual mass of muscle

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (57:39.440)

Like the actual mass of muscle like this. So I think being stronger will always help in a combo will always help. Yeah

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (57:44.640)

To some degree. It's not going to be to a degree where

Lex Fridman (57:50.400)

It overrides efficiency, but I think that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (57:53.120)

It can't help being strong or can't hurt being stronger. There's a bunch of people who believe depending on the sport that

Lex Fridman (58:01.360)

The strength can quickly become a

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (58:04.080)

That have detrimental effects to efficiency

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (58:06.660)

Yeah, like I agree that certain kind of I mean if strength is purely is like very cleanly

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (58:13.540)

Purely applied to the exact movements of the sport. So in judo the explosiveness you need

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (58:18.740)

Is very difficult to replicate in any kind of way except by doing judo. Yeah, I mean

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (58:24.180)

for us, uh

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (58:25.620)

You always have to understand there's only so much technique that can overcome a certain amount of strength

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (58:30.260)

Like if we all try to fight a silverback gorilla, it's gonna kill us

Lex Fridman (58:33.540)

Um, but that that being said, um, I do think that

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (58:37.940)

Like for example heavyweights are usually the least technical because they rely on their size and strength to beat smaller people

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (58:45.380)

Um, but I think that if you stay with this with the discipline of doing everything very precise

Lex Fridman (58:50.580)

And I train with a lot smaller people most of the time so I get out of the habit of using uh using my strength

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (58:56.900)

Um, I think if you're very precise with the way that you train I think that the the extra size and strength can help you

Lex Fridman (59:02.340)

A quick question. How would you fight a silverback gorilla?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (59:07.700)

I mean, is there which animal do you think you can actually defeat that would be impressive that most people would say you can't

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (59:14.100)

you know, I actually

Lex Fridman (59:16.100)

I don't have an uh an answer to this

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (59:17.940)

I thought you were gonna say I want I want I want to say that me and john had like a four hour discussion on

Lex Fridman (59:23.380)

This one time i'm like, what would win bear or gorilla?

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (59:26.820)

Uh, and he went into like this whole dissertation about how like jaguars spin underneath and like berimbolo silverbacks and kill them and like rip

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan (59:33.060)

Their rip their artery and their legs out. It was amazing. I guess. Okay, so before we talk about strength john, let me ask you what

Lex Fridman (59:40.020)

Do you think people would be surprised by if two animals faced?

Lex Fridman (59:44.180)

One of them would win and people wouldn't predict that

Lex Fridman (59:47.220)

So they would be surprised by the effectiveness of certain animal at fighting in the whether it's in the forest in the jungle

Lex Fridman (59:53.620)

So let's slow down here. Okay, so there's two animals of different species fighting

Lex Fridman (59:59.940)

And and most people would pick