Botez Sisters: Chess, Streaming, and Fame
音乐与艺术心理与人性技术与编程生物与进化体育与武术
📋 章节目录
暂无章节信息
🔑 关键词
chessdongamedoingplayingkinggoingsaidgamesbestbetterdidnfunpositionmagnusandreapieceswhitetalkingblack
💬 精彩语录
暂无语录
🎙️ 完整对话（3961 条）
Lex Fridman (00:00.000)
I mean, I've definitely experienced moments
我的意思是，我确实经历过一些时刻
Lex Fridman (00:01.660)
where I didn't want to do anything but chess.
在那里我除了下棋什么都不想做。
Lex Fridman (00:05.460)
I'd also say that's pretty universal.
我还想说这是非常普遍的。
Lex Fridman (00:07.040)
I think if you want to be the best at anything you do
我认为如果你想在所做的任何事情上做到最好
Lex Fridman (00:09.400)
or any sport, you have to be that level of obsessed.
或任何运动，你都必须达到那种程度的痴迷。
Botez Sisters (00:13.880)
The following is a conversation
以下是一段对话
Lex Fridman (00:15.160)
with Alexandra and Andrea Botez.
与亚历山德拉·博特兹和安德里亚·博特兹一起。
Botez Sisters (00:17.480)
They're sisters, professional chess players,
她们是姐妹，职业棋手，
Lex Fridman (00:20.100)
commentators, educators, entertainers, and streamers.
评论员、教育家、演艺人员和主播。
Botez Sisters (00:23.900)
Their channel is called Botez Live on Twitch and YouTube.
他们在 Twitch 和 YouTube 上的频道名为 Botez Live。
Lex Fridman (00:28.120)
I highly recommend you check it out.
我强烈建议您检查一下。
Botez Sisters (00:30.840)
A small side note about the currently ongoing controversy
关于当前正在进行的争议的一个小旁注
Lex Fridman (00:33.640)
in the chess world, where the 19 year old grandmaster,
在19岁的国际象棋大师的世界里，
Botez Sisters (00:36.560)
Hans Niemann, beat Magnus Carlsen at the Sink Field Cup.
汉斯·尼曼 (Hans Niemann) 在水槽杯 (Sink Field Cup) 中击败马格努斯·卡尔森 (Magnus Carlsen)。
Lex Fridman (00:40.960)
After this, Magnus, for the first time ever,
在此之后，马格努斯有史以来第一次，
Botez Sisters (00:43.960)
withdrew from the tournament, implying with a tweet
通过推文暗示退出比赛
Lex Fridman (00:46.720)
that there may have been cheating
可能存在作弊行为
Botez Sisters (00:48.380)
or at least something shady going on.
或者至少发生了一些不正当的事情。
Lex Fridman (00:50.840)
Folks like the grandmaster, Hikaru Nakamura,
像大师中村光这样的人，
Botez Sisters (00:53.600)
fanned the flames of cheating accusations,
煽动作弊指控的火焰，
Lex Fridman (00:56.120)
and the internet made a bunch of proposals
Botez Sisters (00:59.320)
on how the cheating could have been done,
Lex Fridman (01:01.380)
and it ranged from the ridiculous to the hilarious,
Botez Sisters (01:05.020)
often both.
Lex Fridman (01:06.840)
Hans himself came out and said that he has cheated before
Botez Sisters (01:10.520)
when he was 12 and 16 on random online games
Lex Fridman (01:14.480)
to jack up his rating.
Lex Fridman (01:16.420)
But he said that he has never cheated in person
Lex Fridman (01:19.920)
over the board.
Botez Sisters (01:21.240)
Danny Wrench from chess.com, who I've spoken with,
Lex Fridman (01:24.240)
may make a statement in response to Hans's claims soon.
Botez Sisters (01:28.580)
Folks like grandmaster Jakob Luegge
Lex Fridman (01:30.800)
spoke to his experience training Hans Niemann
Lex Fridman (01:32.920)
and has said that his memory and intuition
Lex Fridman (01:36.240)
were quite brilliant.
Lex Fridman (01:38.040)
So as you see, there's a lot of perspectives on this.
Lex Fridman (01:40.500)
ChessBase has a good summary of the saga
Botez Sisters (01:42.680)
that I'll link in the description.
Lex Fridman (01:45.120)
Also note that this is so quickly moving
Botez Sisters (01:48.020)
that new stuff might come out between me recording this
Lex Fridman (01:50.620)
and publishing the episode,
Lex Fridman (01:52.320)
but I thought I'd mention this anyway
Lex Fridman (01:53.720)
since the episode with the Botas sisters
Botez Sisters (01:56.360)
is a conversation about chess
Lex Fridman (01:58.400)
and was recorded shortly before the controversy,
Lex Fridman (02:01.200)
so we didn't talk about it.
Lex Fridman (02:03.720)
I'm considering having Hans on this podcast
Lex Fridman (02:06.920)
and also Magnus back on the podcast,
Lex Fridman (02:09.360)
and maybe others like Hikaru
Botez Sisters (02:11.480)
or folks from chess.com's anti cheat staff
Lex Fridman (02:14.880)
to discuss their really interesting
Botez Sisters (02:16.460)
cheating detection algorithms,
Lex Fridman (02:18.660)
but I may also just stay out of it.
Botez Sisters (02:21.800)
I find chess to be a beautiful game
Lex Fridman (02:24.080)
and the chess community
Botez Sisters (02:25.440)
full of fascinating, brilliant people,
Lex Fridman (02:28.040)
and so I'll keep having conversations like these
Botez Sisters (02:30.320)
about chess.
Lex Fridman (02:31.520)
It's fun.
Botez Sisters (02:32.800)
My goal with this podcast and in general as a human being
Lex Fridman (02:36.880)
is to increase the amount of love in the world.
Botez Sisters (02:39.960)
Sometimes that involves celebrating brilliance and beauty
Lex Fridman (02:43.000)
in science, in art, in chess.
Botez Sisters (02:46.280)
Sometimes it involves empathetic conversations
Lex Fridman (02:48.620)
with controversial figures that seek to understand,
Botez Sisters (02:52.120)
not to ride.
Lex Fridman (02:53.880)
Sometimes it involves standing against
Botez Sisters (02:56.120)
the internet lynch mob,
Lex Fridman (02:57.880)
as the ChessBase article calls it,
Botez Sisters (03:00.120)
to hear the story of a human being who is under attack,
Lex Fridman (03:03.920)
even if it means I get attacked in the process as well.
Botez Sisters (03:08.000)
This is the Lex Friedman podcast.
Lex Fridman (03:09.920)
To support it, please check out our sponsors
Botez Sisters (03:12.420)
in the description,
Lex Fridman (03:13.560)
and now, dear friends,
Botez Sisters (03:14.760)
here's Alexandra and Andrea Botas.
Lex Fridman (03:19.000)
You just got back from Italy.
Lex Fridman (03:20.920)
What's the most memorable thing?
Lex Fridman (03:22.640)
I was just there recently as well.
Botez Sisters (03:24.100)
It was very chaotic because we went out on a whim
Lex Fridman (03:28.000)
and we only had our first hotel booked,
Lex Fridman (03:30.920)
and then we rented a car and drove around all of the cities
Lex Fridman (03:33.920)
and went to like five different cities
Botez Sisters (03:35.580)
in about a week and a bit.
Lex Fridman (03:37.680)
So I think it was just the variety
Botez Sisters (03:39.340)
of seeing so many different places
Lex Fridman (03:40.840)
when we're used to being at home all the time,
Lex Fridman (03:42.680)
and Andrea, is yours your luggage?
Lex Fridman (03:45.320)
Yeah, I would say it was the most stressful vacation
Botez Sisters (03:48.020)
we've been in in our life,
Lex Fridman (03:49.540)
and it was a valuable learning lesson
Botez Sisters (03:51.560)
because now I know how to be prepared for trips,
Lex Fridman (03:54.760)
but we lost our bags and I never got them back.
Lex Fridman (03:57.560)
And like Alex said,
Lex Fridman (03:58.680)
we didn't know where we'd be sleeping every night
Lex Fridman (04:00.560)
and we're just driving through a new city
Lex Fridman (04:02.940)
with a giant van in the most narrowest streets
Lex Fridman (04:06.000)
and getting in many, many fights with Italian men.
Lex Fridman (04:09.400)
So it wasn't really a vacation.
Botez Sisters (04:10.840)
I saw this motion so many times.
Lex Fridman (04:14.160)
Wasn't it liberating to lose your baggage?
Lex Fridman (04:16.540)
Is it still the lining?
Lex Fridman (04:17.720)
It was liberating.
Botez Sisters (04:19.000)
My entire life, I've always had the issue of overpacking.
Lex Fridman (04:21.760)
And I told her before the trip,
Lex Fridman (04:23.360)
Andrea, you're gonna pack light, right?
Lex Fridman (04:25.160)
Yeah, Alex, yeah.
Lex Fridman (04:26.000)
And then I see her stuffing her overweight suitcase.
Lex Fridman (04:28.280)
But you did the same.
Botez Sisters (04:29.280)
We both had giant, big extra baggage that we didn't need.
Lex Fridman (04:33.440)
And I'm actually very glad we lost it
Botez Sisters (04:35.520)
because for Venice, hauling that around on all the boats
Lex Fridman (04:38.520)
and through the tiny streets and there's no Ubers.
Lex Fridman (04:41.120)
And now it's the first time where I can travel
Lex Fridman (04:43.440)
without checking in a bag, which I've never done before.
Lex Fridman (04:46.440)
So now I've learned what it means to pack light
Lex Fridman (04:48.000)
because I saw that I could survive off of just my,
Botez Sisters (04:50.880)
this sounds very dramatic,
Lex Fridman (04:51.960)
but it was really a big learning lesson for me.
Botez Sisters (04:54.340)
The driving must've been crazy
Lex Fridman (04:55.720)
because driving in Italy is rough.
Botez Sisters (04:57.880)
The driving was crazy.
Lex Fridman (04:59.520)
I did most of it and it would be really interesting
Botez Sisters (05:03.800)
driving through places like Florence
Lex Fridman (05:06.160)
or even through the beach areas that were super windy
Botez Sisters (05:10.080)
because there are two way streets
Lex Fridman (05:11.520)
that should really only be one way.
Lex Fridman (05:13.240)
So you'd be driving this huge van
Lex Fridman (05:15.120)
and then another car comes on a cliff
Lex Fridman (05:17.400)
and you're just waiting for it to slowly pass.
Lex Fridman (05:19.480)
So it took all of my focus and concentration
Botez Sisters (05:22.980)
to drive well in Italy,
Lex Fridman (05:24.400)
but it was actually really relaxing
Botez Sisters (05:26.000)
because the hardest thing about making a lot of videos online
Lex Fridman (05:30.400)
is you're always thinking about it, what's coming next.
Lex Fridman (05:33.400)
And when we were in Italy,
Lex Fridman (05:34.840)
it was so chaotic that I did not think about work
Botez Sisters (05:37.480)
for a good week and a bit.
Lex Fridman (05:39.260)
Oh, cause you're just.
Botez Sisters (05:40.440)
We were stressed.
Lex Fridman (05:41.280)
I was just trying to keep us alive.
Botez Sisters (05:42.760)
It seemed higher priority.
Lex Fridman (05:44.560)
And that was kind of fun.
Botez Sisters (05:45.640)
It was kind of fun.
Lex Fridman (05:46.840)
No planning, nothing.
Botez Sisters (05:48.240)
Just on a whim.
Lex Fridman (05:49.080)
I wouldn't recommend it or ever do that again, but.
Botez Sisters (05:52.960)
It sounds pretty awesome.
Lex Fridman (05:54.440)
And we even randomly ran into two friends of ours
Botez Sisters (05:57.100)
who were in the same city
Lex Fridman (05:58.240)
and we just traveled with them for about half of the trip.
Botez Sisters (06:01.080)
Yeah, so you just took on the chaos.
Lex Fridman (06:03.280)
Exactly, it was an adventure.
Botez Sisters (06:04.960)
Okay, and I see like,
Lex Fridman (06:05.800)
cause you were using your hands a lot.
Botez Sisters (06:07.040)
You picked up some of the Italian hand gestures.
Lex Fridman (06:10.840)
I did.
Botez Sisters (06:11.720)
We did get yelled at by a lot of Italians.
Lex Fridman (06:14.120)
The old Italian grandmas would come to us after breakfast
Botez Sisters (06:17.400)
cause we'd leave something on the plate
Lex Fridman (06:18.920)
and she'd be like,
Botez Sisters (06:19.760)
you could feed an entire village with that.
Lex Fridman (06:21.760)
Tell your friends.
Lex Fridman (06:22.680)
And we'd feel so ashamed.
Lex Fridman (06:24.320)
Yeah, we got cursed out a lot,
Lex Fridman (06:25.840)
but it really reminded me of where we grew up and helped.
Lex Fridman (06:29.000)
That's true.
Botez Sisters (06:29.840)
Yeah, bring back those mechanisms.
Lex Fridman (06:30.680)
Where'd you grow up?
Botez Sisters (06:32.360)
We're Romanian,
Lex Fridman (06:33.640)
but it was like an immigrant neighborhood.
Botez Sisters (06:35.360)
In Canada.
Lex Fridman (06:36.360)
So, same if you don't finish your plate,
Botez Sisters (06:39.280)
that's disrespectful to the people who made the food.
Lex Fridman (06:42.000)
How was the food in Italy?
Botez Sisters (06:43.600)
I feel like the carbs thing is too intense.
Lex Fridman (06:46.000)
Yeah, I think very overrated in my opinion.
Lex Fridman (06:48.280)
So I'm actually not supposed to eat gluten
Lex Fridman (06:51.040)
cause I have an allergy,
Lex Fridman (06:52.640)
but I was in Italy and it's gluten galore.
Lex Fridman (06:56.240)
So I was actually eating a lot of it
Lex Fridman (06:57.800)
and it was very interesting
Lex Fridman (06:58.800)
cause I didn't get sick while I was in Italy,
Lex Fridman (07:00.800)
but I do while I'm in the US.
Lex Fridman (07:03.040)
So somehow the food was actually maybe more okay
Botez Sisters (07:08.040)
for me to digest, which I appreciated,
Lex Fridman (07:09.720)
but I didn't like it as much as I thought.
Lex Fridman (07:11.640)
Did you like the food there?
Lex Fridman (07:12.760)
Yeah, no, I did, I did.
Botez Sisters (07:16.960)
I love carbs, but it feels like Vegas
Lex Fridman (07:21.560)
when I go there for the food is like,
Botez Sisters (07:24.760)
if I stay here too long, I'm gonna do things I regret.
Lex Fridman (07:28.360)
That's what it feels like with the food.
Botez Sisters (07:30.120)
I don't know how to moderate
Lex Fridman (07:31.120)
and everybody is pushing very large portions
Lex Fridman (07:33.840)
and while kind of eating things on you,
Lex Fridman (07:36.960)
pasta, pizza and bread, so delicious.
Lex Fridman (07:41.640)
So yeah, I love it, but I regret everything.
Lex Fridman (07:45.440)
So it's like, I don't wanna go to a place
Botez Sisters (07:47.800)
where I'm going to regret everything I do
Lex Fridman (07:51.440)
for too long of a time.
Botez Sisters (07:54.400)
Yeah, surprisingly the people there though
Lex Fridman (07:56.200)
are still very fit and everyone stays in good shape,
Lex Fridman (07:59.040)
but that's probably because you're walking around all day
Lex Fridman (08:00.880)
and you're much more active than anyone.
Lex Fridman (08:02.320)
And they also just know how to moderate food.
Lex Fridman (08:04.480)
I think I've gotten used to the US way of eating.
Lex Fridman (08:07.280)
The US portions. What is that?
Lex Fridman (08:09.000)
Just a lot, always a lot and more.
Lex Fridman (08:14.080)
And I feel in the US food advertisements
Lex Fridman (08:17.560)
are also much more in your face
Lex Fridman (08:19.320)
and you're more often reminded of junk food
Lex Fridman (08:21.480)
than we were in Italy.
Lex Fridman (08:22.880)
So even though we were eating less healthy things,
Lex Fridman (08:25.480)
I think we were getting cravings
Lex Fridman (08:27.280)
and being pushed towards junk food less often.
Lex Fridman (08:30.840)
All right, I gotta ask you a hard question.
Lex Fridman (08:33.160)
So the romance languages.
Lex Fridman (08:34.880)
So I think French is up there as like number one.
Lex Fridman (08:38.600)
Number one in terms of?
Lex Fridman (08:40.360)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (08:41.200)
Who's ranking them?
Lex Fridman (08:42.600)
Oh, you guys speak Italian or no?
Botez Sisters (08:45.320)
Not Italian, but we studied French and Spanish in school.
Lex Fridman (08:49.240)
And Romanian.
Botez Sisters (08:50.120)
I feel like every country calls their language
Lex Fridman (08:52.320)
a romance language.
Lex Fridman (08:53.160)
But it's Romanian, French, Spanish, Portuguese.
Lex Fridman (08:58.480)
And I think there was one more that was like this dialect,
Lex Fridman (09:00.960)
but those are considered the romance languages.
Lex Fridman (09:03.400)
Okay, so where would you put Italian?
Botez Sisters (09:05.480)
I think we got yelled at so much in Italian
Lex Fridman (09:08.280)
that it's not gonna be a love word.
Lex Fridman (09:10.720)
So it wasn't working.
Lex Fridman (09:11.600)
It's on the bottom of the list
Botez Sisters (09:12.960)
cause people did not use it nicely to us.
Lex Fridman (09:15.000)
But I always really liked how French sounds.
Botez Sisters (09:19.800)
I think something about it where maybe Spanish
Lex Fridman (09:23.000)
actually sounds nicer to the ears,
Lex Fridman (09:24.920)
but French has more character and it feels more sultry.
Lex Fridman (09:27.960)
So I like French.
Lex Fridman (09:29.000)
What about you?
Lex Fridman (09:29.840)
Yeah, that was my answer too.
Botez Sisters (09:30.680)
Oh.
Lex Fridman (09:31.500)
Sultry, okay.
Botez Sisters (09:32.400)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (09:33.960)
I feel like French, in France,
Botez Sisters (09:36.960)
I feel like I'm always being judged.
Lex Fridman (09:39.240)
Like they're better than me.
Botez Sisters (09:40.640)
That's what French.
Lex Fridman (09:41.480)
They are better than us.
Botez Sisters (09:42.320)
That's true.
Lex Fridman (09:43.760)
It's just so true.
Botez Sisters (09:45.680)
Which is why I long to belong to that.
Lex Fridman (09:50.320)
I like the British accent.
Lex Fridman (09:51.840)
The British accent?
Lex Fridman (09:52.680)
Yeah.
Botez Sisters (09:53.520)
Actually, one thing we did on our Italian trip
Lex Fridman (09:55.880)
is we just picked up British accents
Botez Sisters (09:58.320)
for the entire trip for fun.
Lex Fridman (10:00.520)
And we forgot we were doing them
Botez Sisters (10:02.000)
to the point where we talked to British people
Lex Fridman (10:03.840)
and they'd ask us, why are you talking like that?
Botez Sisters (10:05.880)
We just couldn't stop.
Lex Fridman (10:07.360)
I did feel much more elegant and mature.
Botez Sisters (10:10.440)
That's true.
Lex Fridman (10:11.280)
People like, I don't know if they felt the same way
Botez Sisters (10:13.560)
about us, but it was more of the confidence.
Lex Fridman (10:16.600)
You do feel like you're more poised for sure.
Botez Sisters (10:19.400)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (10:20.280)
So how'd you guys get into chess?
Botez Sisters (10:22.320)
When did you first, let's say,
Lex Fridman (10:24.520)
when did you first fall in love with chess?
Lex Fridman (10:28.280)
So we both started playing when we were pretty young,
Lex Fridman (10:31.000)
around six years old.
Botez Sisters (10:32.120)
That's when our dad taught us.
Lex Fridman (10:33.840)
And I enjoyed playing chess
Botez Sisters (10:36.200)
because I had good results early on,
Lex Fridman (10:38.720)
but a lot of it was being pushed from my dad to play chess.
Lex Fridman (10:42.000)
And I only really started loving it
Lex Fridman (10:44.320)
when we moved from Canada and we started moving a lot
Lex Fridman (10:47.320)
and chess was the one stable thing that I had.
Lex Fridman (10:50.400)
And it was also where all of my friends were.
Lex Fridman (10:53.760)
So it was kind of that foundational thing for me.
Lex Fridman (10:57.480)
And that's when I started studying chess very intensely.
Lex Fridman (10:59.640)
And when I started putting in the hours out of my own will
Lex Fridman (11:02.200)
and not because I was being pushed by my dad,
Botez Sisters (11:04.000)
that's when I started really loving it.
Lex Fridman (11:05.680)
And I even wanted to take time off college
Botez Sisters (11:07.560)
to just focus on chess.
Lex Fridman (11:09.360)
So training and competing?
Botez Sisters (11:11.440)
Training and competing, yeah.
Lex Fridman (11:12.920)
It was when I was doing it for myself
Botez Sisters (11:15.080)
that I started getting my best results.
Lex Fridman (11:17.440)
And actually enjoying the thing.
Lex Fridman (11:19.520)
And really enjoying it, yeah.
Lex Fridman (11:21.200)
I would spend summer vacations studying for tournaments
Lex Fridman (11:23.920)
and my mom would come and say,
Lex Fridman (11:25.440)
"'You need to make friends, go leave the house."
Lex Fridman (11:27.760)
And I'd be like, no, I need to play chess.
Lex Fridman (11:29.880)
And I remember those moments.
Botez Sisters (11:31.800)
That you rebelled by playing chess, that's awesome.
Lex Fridman (11:34.360)
Yeah, exactly.
Lex Fridman (11:35.320)
How did you get into it?
Lex Fridman (11:36.560)
Yeah, my experience with loving in high school
Botez Sisters (11:39.680)
is very opposite from Alex's, but right,
Lex Fridman (11:42.120)
my sister was playing and my dad taught me
Botez Sisters (11:44.000)
when I was also six. Andrea was cool
Lex Fridman (11:45.120)
in high school, unlike me.
Botez Sisters (11:46.360)
You were.
Lex Fridman (11:47.200)
I wouldn't say cool, I'd say more balanced
Lex Fridman (11:49.840)
and I was interested in other hobbies.
Lex Fridman (11:51.800)
In my childhood, if I ever really did love chess,
Botez Sisters (11:54.760)
there's certainly moments about traveling
Lex Fridman (11:56.880)
and being together with my family
Lex Fridman (11:58.320)
and spending those moments together,
Lex Fridman (11:59.680)
but those are more the social and the experiences.
Lex Fridman (12:02.720)
But funny enough, I think my happiest moment
Lex Fridman (12:05.440)
where I really played the game for my own enjoyment
Botez Sisters (12:08.040)
was probably my most recent tournament.
Lex Fridman (12:11.480)
Because this was after, obviously, we've been streaming
Lex Fridman (12:15.040)
and I'm no longer in high school,
Lex Fridman (12:16.040)
but when I was in school, I was always playing for college
Lex Fridman (12:20.040)
and for the results, trying to build a resume.
Lex Fridman (12:22.200)
So I was too stressed out about the pressure
Botez Sisters (12:24.040)
to really enjoy the game.
Lex Fridman (12:25.360)
Whereas when I just played my first tournament,
Lex Fridman (12:27.360)
so it was after a two year break because of the pandemic
Lex Fridman (12:31.720)
and it was also all live on Twitch,
Lex Fridman (12:33.440)
so there was some pressure, but it was the first time
Lex Fridman (12:36.960)
that I was really eager to study for the game,
Botez Sisters (12:39.880)
sitting and focusing since we've been streaming
Lex Fridman (12:42.120)
and not getting distracted by something else.
Botez Sisters (12:44.360)
In years, like I said.
Lex Fridman (12:46.160)
And the tournament experience, I hit my highest rating
Lex Fridman (12:48.520)
and it was my best tournament ever.
Lex Fridman (12:50.280)
And I think most of that is because it came
Botez Sisters (12:51.880)
from my own enjoyment.
Lex Fridman (12:54.000)
So you didn't enjoy the domination?
Lex Fridman (12:56.520)
Because I think you did really well, right?
Lex Fridman (12:58.680)
This is like a couple months ago?
Botez Sisters (13:00.400)
Oh yeah, yeah, the tournament.
Lex Fridman (13:01.400)
Well, of course, I think the results came
Botez Sisters (13:03.440)
from enjoying the tournament.
Lex Fridman (13:04.920)
Because I would be in high school studying triple
Botez Sisters (13:08.320)
the amount of time, like six hours every day
Lex Fridman (13:09.800)
compared to this tournament, I didn't even prepare for it.
Lex Fridman (13:12.040)
And for three years, I wouldn't be able
Lex Fridman (13:13.720)
to pass one rating, whereas in this one tournament,
Botez Sisters (13:16.200)
I passed it by like 70 points without even any preparation.
Lex Fridman (13:19.720)
So it was, I think, as soon as you stopped worrying
Botez Sisters (13:22.440)
about the competitions, when the games get much better.
Lex Fridman (13:24.920)
What does it mean to pass a rating?
Lex Fridman (13:26.520)
So I was stuck at 1900.
Lex Fridman (13:28.320)
1900 is 100 points off of expert.
Botez Sisters (13:31.120)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (13:32.000)
Usually when you reach 2000, you're considered an expert,
Botez Sisters (13:34.800)
which is the rating Andrea was going for.
Lex Fridman (13:36.760)
Okay, expert, that's a technical term
Lex Fridman (13:39.240)
or that's like a talk and trash term?
Lex Fridman (13:40.880)
It's more of a colloquial term
Botez Sisters (13:42.520)
where if somebody is around a 2000
Lex Fridman (13:44.280)
and you're playing them in a tournament,
Botez Sisters (13:45.560)
they won't have the actual title next to their name,
Lex Fridman (13:47.640)
but you always say, I'm playing an expert.
Lex Fridman (13:49.440)
What about like the more official things like master?
Lex Fridman (13:52.440)
Does that have to do with the rating or something else?
Botez Sisters (13:53.880)
Yeah, so national master in the US is when you're 2200.
Lex Fridman (13:57.880)
Okay, and what's international master?
Botez Sisters (13:59.800)
International master is based off of a different system,
Lex Fridman (14:02.640)
the FIDE system, which is international.
Botez Sisters (14:04.960)
To be an international master, it's 2400
Lex Fridman (14:09.400)
and you have to have three international master norms.
Botez Sisters (14:12.480)
Yeah, I think Magnus said he's a 28, six something.
Lex Fridman (14:16.520)
That was, yeah.
Lex Fridman (14:17.360)
And then he said, that's pretty decent.
Lex Fridman (14:19.600)
Now.
Botez Sisters (14:20.440)
Well, he always talks a lot about that.
Lex Fridman (14:21.280)
But see the thing is, I think what he meant
Botez Sisters (14:23.440)
is that's a decent rating
Lex Fridman (14:25.720)
because it accurately captures his actual level.
Lex Fridman (14:29.040)
So it's not overinflated or underinflated and so on.
Lex Fridman (14:32.960)
And so the discussion there was how do you get to,
Lex Fridman (14:35.800)
can a human being get to 2900?
Lex Fridman (14:38.360)
And then he says, because my current rating
Botez Sisters (14:40.360)
is pretty decent at representing my skill level,
Lex Fridman (14:43.560)
it's gonna be a long road to actually get there.
Botez Sisters (14:46.280)
Because it's like, so you have to beat people
Lex Fridman (14:48.440)
at your same level, that's how the number increases.
Botez Sisters (14:50.560)
Exactly, yeah.
Lex Fridman (14:52.280)
And you beat a bunch of people in the tournament, right?
Botez Sisters (14:54.480)
That are higher than your luck.
Lex Fridman (14:55.320)
I did, I got very lucky.
Botez Sisters (14:56.600)
I was playing, I was really nervous
Lex Fridman (14:58.080)
because my category was like 200 points above my rating.
Lex Fridman (15:01.680)
And of course, I was very rusty
Lex Fridman (15:04.080)
and I didn't play in a tournament in a while,
Lex Fridman (15:05.520)
but it went pretty well.
Lex Fridman (15:07.720)
Do you feel the pressure when you're actually recording it,
Lex Fridman (15:10.360)
like the streaming?
Lex Fridman (15:11.600)
It was definitely, so before every round I was vlogging
Lex Fridman (15:15.640)
and I was doing meet and greets
Lex Fridman (15:17.240)
and doing other things for the livestream.
Botez Sisters (15:18.920)
Yeah, I saw you do a meet and greet.
Lex Fridman (15:21.040)
You didn't know what the hell you were doing, it's great.
Botez Sisters (15:23.320)
Yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (15:24.160)
Like what am I, how do I do this?
Botez Sisters (15:25.240)
Yeah, I see.
Lex Fridman (15:26.480)
What do I do?
Botez Sisters (15:27.520)
It was actually really wholesome.
Lex Fridman (15:29.120)
The beginning was very silly
Botez Sisters (15:31.880)
because I was just not expecting
Lex Fridman (15:33.600)
that it was gonna be more of a seminar.
Botez Sisters (15:35.240)
I thought it was like, oh, you pose and take pictures,
Lex Fridman (15:37.560)
but they actually asked really nice, meaningful questions,
Lex Fridman (15:39.480)
but unfortunately it's bad for YouTube retention
Lex Fridman (15:41.520)
and we cut them all out, so.
Lex Fridman (15:43.520)
Bad for YouTube?
Lex Fridman (15:44.360)
Yeah.
Botez Sisters (15:45.200)
The good long form conversation.
Lex Fridman (15:46.720)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (15:47.560)
So it was like questions, Q and A type of thing.
Lex Fridman (15:48.400)
Exactly, you have to have very fast paced for YouTube
Lex Fridman (15:51.440)
and that seminar was not fast paced.
Lex Fridman (15:54.120)
Okay, well, not everything in life
Lex Fridman (15:55.800)
needs to be on YouTube, right?
Lex Fridman (15:57.120)
That's true.
Botez Sisters (15:57.960)
There's like two parallel things,
Lex Fridman (15:58.960)
stuff that's fun for YouTube.
Botez Sisters (16:00.400)
Yes, one day we'll post that Q and A.
Lex Fridman (16:03.360)
Yeah, when you guys like, when you become like ultra famous,
Botez Sisters (16:06.440)
you're currently just regular famous.
Lex Fridman (16:08.200)
And then they'll appreciate the long, slow content, yes.
Lex Fridman (16:12.640)
And that, the YouTube aspect, the creation aspect,
Lex Fridman (16:15.440)
does that add to the fun, ultimately,
Lex Fridman (16:17.920)
of the chess, of like your love of chess?
Lex Fridman (16:20.160)
Oh, for the love of chess in general
Lex Fridman (16:21.640)
or just for competing in that one tournament?
Lex Fridman (16:24.320)
No, love of chess in general.
Botez Sisters (16:25.400)
I think you said that for competing for that tournament
Lex Fridman (16:28.080)
is adding pressure.
Botez Sisters (16:29.000)
Yeah, but actually I would say like a good pressure,
Lex Fridman (16:31.640)
but yeah, this is where I differed to Alex
Botez Sisters (16:34.000)
because when I was just competitive and I was younger,
Lex Fridman (16:37.880)
I don't think I loved chess as much
Botez Sisters (16:39.360)
as when I started doing it for content
Lex Fridman (16:41.080)
because unlike her, who a lot of her friends
Lex Fridman (16:43.560)
and social circle were other chess players,
Lex Fridman (16:46.320)
I never really traveled
Lex Fridman (16:47.400)
and built really solid friendships through chess
Lex Fridman (16:50.080)
until I started streaming and meeting other chess streamers
Lex Fridman (16:52.880)
and actually playing and talking to people for fun
Lex Fridman (16:55.960)
rather than just always being alone in the game
Lex Fridman (16:58.240)
and never really meeting other people my age
Lex Fridman (17:00.560)
or people with similar interests.
Lex Fridman (17:02.160)
So I would say Twitch was the thing
Lex Fridman (17:04.240)
that really changed how I approached the game.
Botez Sisters (17:07.360)
I think with some YouTubers,
Lex Fridman (17:09.240)
there's a pressure to be almost somebody else.
Botez Sisters (17:11.440)
You create a persona and you're stuck in that persona.
Lex Fridman (17:14.320)
I think I'm too much of a boomer
Botez Sisters (17:19.120)
to know what the hell Twitch is anyway,
Lex Fridman (17:20.640)
but it feels like when you're actually live streaming,
Botez Sisters (17:23.840)
you can't help but be who you really are.
Lex Fridman (17:26.160)
I think it's, oh, well, I think when you're live streaming
Lex Fridman (17:28.880)
and I've talked to a lot of other streamers about this,
Lex Fridman (17:31.320)
you kind of just over exaggerate
Botez Sisters (17:33.320)
one side of your personality.
Lex Fridman (17:34.880)
And of course, it's kind of like being like on all the time.
Botez Sisters (17:37.680)
Like you're trying to be more entertaining
Lex Fridman (17:39.320)
and sometimes you're being silly at moments or more,
Botez Sisters (17:44.000)
you take what character traits like people know you for.
Lex Fridman (17:46.880)
And for me, one is being like ADHD
Lex Fridman (17:48.760)
and the younger sibling who's very energetic
Lex Fridman (17:52.240)
and causes trouble,
Botez Sisters (17:53.280)
even though sometimes it's a little switch.
Lex Fridman (17:54.120)
Yeah, I'm sure you cause trouble just for the camera.
Botez Sisters (17:56.320)
Yeah, right.
Lex Fridman (17:57.160)
I think, yeah, I think,
Lex Fridman (17:59.040)
and of course, once you're live streaming
Lex Fridman (18:00.360)
for like four or five hours,
Botez Sisters (18:01.640)
there's gonna be moments in the stream where it's more chill,
Lex Fridman (18:04.040)
but especially when you're like editing that content
Botez Sisters (18:07.160)
or you're doing bigger streams that are shorter,
Lex Fridman (18:10.840)
you are kind of playing up a side of yourself
Botez Sisters (18:13.160)
because of course, there's a lot of parts of me
Lex Fridman (18:15.160)
that I don't show to the camera
Botez Sisters (18:16.400)
because they're not as entertaining to watch,
Lex Fridman (18:18.160)
like the more serious part.
Lex Fridman (18:19.760)
And also there's things that you are really interested in
Lex Fridman (18:23.440)
about what you do.
Botez Sisters (18:24.520)
Like I love competitive chess
Lex Fridman (18:26.480)
where I could sit and really think about it,
Lex Fridman (18:28.080)
but I know that that is not gonna be as entertaining
Lex Fridman (18:30.200)
for stream.
Botez Sisters (18:31.040)
I know that's not gonna be as entertaining for YouTube.
Lex Fridman (18:33.200)
So you kind of have to take what you like,
Lex Fridman (18:35.520)
but then really adapt it for whatever the format is.
Lex Fridman (18:38.480)
And sometimes that feels inauthentic,
Lex Fridman (18:41.800)
but other times it just feels like repackaging
Lex Fridman (18:44.520)
what you love for people
Botez Sisters (18:47.320)
in a more general audience to enjoy.
Lex Fridman (18:49.080)
Do you feel like it's a trap a little bit as you evolve?
Lex Fridman (18:51.920)
Like you're trapped in?
Lex Fridman (18:53.200)
Oh, I think social media, oh, sorry, go ahead.
Lex Fridman (18:56.360)
Social media in general is a trap of that kind?
Lex Fridman (18:59.640)
Well, so we've been trying to switch
Botez Sisters (19:01.360)
to learn how to make YouTube videos recently.
Lex Fridman (19:03.760)
And so much of learning YouTube school
Botez Sisters (19:07.360)
is kind of the beastification of content
Lex Fridman (19:09.560)
where you try to get to the point of the video
Botez Sisters (19:12.520)
within like the first 10 seconds to not lose people.
Lex Fridman (19:15.400)
The beastificate, you mean like Mr. Beast?
Botez Sisters (19:17.160)
Yeah. Okay.
Lex Fridman (19:18.000)
Yeah, where it's so fast paced,
Botez Sisters (19:19.280)
there's a reason to wait, there's high stakes.
Lex Fridman (19:21.680)
And everything is created to keep people watching the video
Lex Fridman (19:24.400)
and keep people on the platform.
Lex Fridman (19:25.880)
And in some ways it is a trap
Botez Sisters (19:28.280)
because it's harder to do the kind of content you like
Lex Fridman (19:32.360)
because you really have to squeeze it to be like,
Lex Fridman (19:34.120)
okay, well, do we have a good thumbnail for this?
Lex Fridman (19:36.440)
Do we have a good title for this?
Lex Fridman (19:38.600)
And that's something that we're trying to figure out
Lex Fridman (19:41.040)
how to keep true to what we wanna do.
Botez Sisters (19:45.800)
Yeah, see, the way I think about it is,
Lex Fridman (19:47.440)
yeah, there's a lot of stuff you can create
Lex Fridman (19:49.360)
and yeah, the Mr. Beastification process.
Lex Fridman (19:53.480)
But also I think about what are the videos,
Botez Sisters (19:57.160)
conversations or things I will create in this life
Lex Fridman (1:00:02.080)
but the idea is you're giving your own piece
Botez Sisters (1:00:04.180)
because you want to have more space and open up the King,
Lex Fridman (1:00:07.660)
which is what you're always trying to do
Botez Sisters (1:00:09.260)
when you have a King side.
Lex Fridman (1:00:10.100)
You're trying to remove as many of the King's defenders
Botez Sisters (1:00:12.180)
as you can without giving up too much.
Lex Fridman (1:00:14.600)
And then you have a ton of pieces on the King side
Botez Sisters (1:00:17.680)
for black, just waiting to.
Lex Fridman (1:00:20.360)
Exactly.
Botez Sisters (1:00:21.400)
To do harm.
Lex Fridman (1:00:22.480)
And then.
Lex Fridman (1:00:23.320)
And notice how every single move,
Lex Fridman (1:00:25.400)
white is getting attacked.
Botez Sisters (1:00:26.840)
Like they're just never getting a break.
Lex Fridman (1:00:28.480)
Black just keeps throwing all their pieces.
Lex Fridman (1:00:30.000)
So it's funny that black's Queen has been hanging
Lex Fridman (1:00:32.520)
for like three moves now
Lex Fridman (1:00:33.920)
and white still can't do anything about it.
Lex Fridman (1:00:36.160)
So rook puts the King in check.
Botez Sisters (1:00:38.520)
The King runs.
Lex Fridman (1:00:40.200)
And then again, we leave the Queen hanging
Lex Fridman (1:00:44.000)
and you develop a piece,
Lex Fridman (1:00:45.160)
this light squared Bishop that's so important,
Lex Fridman (1:00:46.900)
and you're once again threatening checkmate on G2.
Lex Fridman (1:00:51.040)
And then Bishops coming to the game.
Botez Sisters (1:00:53.600)
Once again, the Queen hanging.
Lex Fridman (1:00:55.880)
I mean, the game is just so beautiful.
Botez Sisters (1:00:57.520)
The amount of calculation Hikaru put into this position.
Lex Fridman (1:01:02.640)
It feels like so much is in danger.
Botez Sisters (1:01:04.320)
Right.
Lex Fridman (1:01:05.160)
It's so interesting.
Lex Fridman (1:01:07.160)
And Knight takes what?
Lex Fridman (1:01:09.040)
A pawns.
Lex Fridman (1:01:09.880)
So now his Queen is attacked twice
Lex Fridman (1:01:12.160)
and he doesn't care.
Botez Sisters (1:01:13.920)
He takes the Bishop
Lex Fridman (1:01:14.880)
and he's still threatening the checkmate on G2.
Lex Fridman (1:01:18.800)
And then the Queen takes the Bishop.
Lex Fridman (1:01:21.960)
So now he's defending against G2
Lex Fridman (1:01:24.320)
and black just goes and grabs some material back here.
Lex Fridman (1:01:29.720)
So here, black is already is winning.
Botez Sisters (1:01:32.400)
Well, he ends up winning a Knight here
Lex Fridman (1:01:34.200)
because black had to be so much on the defensive.
Botez Sisters (1:01:38.400)
He's just taking pieces.
Lex Fridman (1:01:39.400)
Yeah, I mean at this point,
Botez Sisters (1:01:40.440)
you're up two whole pieces.
Lex Fridman (1:01:41.880)
So you knew it was in here.
Botez Sisters (1:01:43.000)
Yeah, exactly.
Lex Fridman (1:01:44.280)
But.
Lex Fridman (1:01:46.240)
And Queen.
Lex Fridman (1:01:47.760)
Queen.
Lex Fridman (1:01:49.440)
And then you take,
Lex Fridman (1:01:51.420)
and then the rook takes
Lex Fridman (1:01:53.240)
and there's not as much of an attack on the King anymore,
Lex Fridman (1:01:56.720)
but Hikaru is up a Knight here,
Botez Sisters (1:01:59.720)
which is GG.
Lex Fridman (1:02:01.880)
Yeah, what's the correct way of saying that?
Botez Sisters (1:02:04.840)
Because I played Demis Hassabis.
Lex Fridman (1:02:07.520)
I played him in chess.
Lex Fridman (1:02:09.000)
And then I quickly realized like from his facial expressions
Lex Fridman (1:02:13.400)
that I should have like stopped playing.
Botez Sisters (1:02:16.520)
Oh.
Lex Fridman (1:02:17.360)
It was like, it's already set.
Botez Sisters (1:02:19.000)
Yeah, when it's.
Lex Fridman (1:02:20.000)
And then he's like, like, this is the good time to like,
Botez Sisters (1:02:23.960)
give up.
Lex Fridman (1:02:24.800)
Right.
Botez Sisters (1:02:25.640)
You're not gonna get to checkmate where like this,
Lex Fridman (1:02:27.400)
you know, he could see like,
Botez Sisters (1:02:29.000)
the checkmate is like five or seven moves away or something.
Lex Fridman (1:02:32.440)
And what's the play?
Botez Sisters (1:02:34.800)
Usually you have to resign if you're in a position
Lex Fridman (1:02:38.720)
or you should through chess etiquette resign
Botez Sisters (1:02:41.800)
when you're in a position where your opponent
Lex Fridman (1:02:44.760)
is definitely gonna win out of respect.
Botez Sisters (1:02:46.640)
Like if you're a piece down.
Lex Fridman (1:02:48.520)
And obviously all top grandmasters do that.
Botez Sisters (1:02:51.640)
The only people who don't do that is kids
Lex Fridman (1:02:53.880)
because their coaches.
Botez Sisters (1:02:54.720)
They love to play till the checkmate.
Lex Fridman (1:02:55.560)
Their coaches always tell them never resign
Lex Fridman (1:02:57.760)
and they'll be in hopelessly lost positions
Lex Fridman (1:02:59.840)
playing against like two rooks, a king,
Lex Fridman (1:03:02.440)
and they only have their sole king,
Lex Fridman (1:03:03.960)
but they're still playing on.
Lex Fridman (1:03:05.760)
So that's a position where it's obvious they can't win.
Lex Fridman (1:03:08.000)
Because the kids might make errors.
Botez Sisters (1:03:09.600)
Yeah, exactly.
Lex Fridman (1:03:10.440)
And so it might as well.
Botez Sisters (1:03:11.440)
That was the interesting thing about,
Lex Fridman (1:03:12.800)
I think game six of the previous world championship
Botez Sisters (1:03:15.720)
with Magnus.
Lex Fridman (1:03:16.720)
Was it the one where he beat Nap?
Botez Sisters (1:03:18.400)
Yeah, the first time he beat him,
Lex Fridman (1:03:20.360)
where it was like, he said that,
Botez Sisters (1:03:23.600)
I don't know how often you come across
Lex Fridman (1:03:26.000)
this kind of situation.
Botez Sisters (1:03:26.840)
He said, the engines predict a draw,
Lex Fridman (1:03:30.400)
but that doesn't mean that it's going to be a draw.
Lex Fridman (1:03:33.360)
So you play on hoping that you take a person into,
Lex Fridman (1:03:38.800)
I mean, this is, I guess, an end game thing.
Botez Sisters (1:03:40.480)
You take them to deep water
Lex Fridman (1:03:41.640)
and they make a positional mistake or something.
Botez Sisters (1:03:43.840)
I don't know when, like he from his gut knows
Lex Fridman (1:03:47.360)
that this is supposed to be a draw,
Lex Fridman (1:03:48.680)
but he still plays on.
Lex Fridman (1:03:50.000)
Yeah, I mean, that is one where
Botez Sisters (1:03:52.520)
it could theoretically be a draw,
Lex Fridman (1:03:54.600)
but it could be very hard to defend
Botez Sisters (1:03:56.840)
because it's a hard technique to know as a human.
Lex Fridman (1:03:59.680)
And especially in that game,
Botez Sisters (1:04:01.120)
I know that Nepo was also in time pressure,
Lex Fridman (1:04:04.080)
which makes it even harder.
Lex Fridman (1:04:05.640)
So in situations like that, you should always continue.
Lex Fridman (1:04:07.920)
It's more where an engine would give you something
Botez Sisters (1:04:10.160)
like plus 10 or something where it's not just clearly a win,
Lex Fridman (1:04:14.440)
but anybody would know how to win.
Lex Fridman (1:04:16.000)
And that's where you're usually supposed to resign.
Lex Fridman (1:04:18.840)
So what do you find beautiful about this game?
Lex Fridman (1:04:20.800)
Is it the attacking chess and just the asymmetry of it?
Lex Fridman (1:04:27.120)
It's the asymmetry.
Lex Fridman (1:04:28.920)
And it's the fact that this is the dream
Lex Fridman (1:04:32.440)
for the King's Indian,
Botez Sisters (1:04:34.040)
where you're able to get a beautiful attack.
Lex Fridman (1:04:36.320)
And there was also those two really nice sacrifices
Botez Sisters (1:04:40.100)
where Black just continuously kept putting pressure
Lex Fridman (1:04:43.560)
on White's King to the point where he was able
Botez Sisters (1:04:45.680)
to win material.
Lex Fridman (1:04:47.100)
And the best part of it is that if the attack didn't work
Botez Sisters (1:04:50.120)
out, Black would have been completely lost.
Lex Fridman (1:04:53.560)
How often does that happen, by the way?
Botez Sisters (1:04:54.960)
Like as an attacking player,
Lex Fridman (1:04:56.360)
how often do you put yourself in the position of like,
Lex Fridman (1:04:59.780)
I'm screwed unless this works out?
Lex Fridman (1:05:01.760)
In online chess more than I should.
Lex Fridman (1:05:04.080)
And it's usually when I sacrifice,
Lex Fridman (1:05:05.760)
I know it's either gonna work or I'm lost.
Lex Fridman (1:05:09.560)
And those are the most fun positions to play usually.
Lex Fridman (1:05:13.520)
But in tournaments, if you're doing a sacrifice,
Botez Sisters (1:05:15.920)
you're playing it with 100% confidence
Lex Fridman (1:05:18.640)
because you're taking the time to calculate it.
Lex Fridman (1:05:20.580)
But yeah, when you have three minutes,
Lex Fridman (1:05:22.200)
you don't have time.
Lex Fridman (1:05:23.040)
So you take a whim and you follow your intuition
Lex Fridman (1:05:25.600)
and you find out later.
Botez Sisters (1:05:27.040)
Or you're very confident it'll work
Lex Fridman (1:05:29.380)
and you haven't calculated all the way until the end,
Lex Fridman (1:05:31.540)
but you've calculated to the point where you have enough
Lex Fridman (1:05:34.400)
in exchange for the sack
Lex Fridman (1:05:35.640)
and you think you could play that position.
Lex Fridman (1:05:37.880)
How do you train chess these days?
Lex Fridman (1:05:41.320)
What's, do you practice?
Lex Fridman (1:05:44.060)
Do you do deliberate practice?
Botez Sisters (1:05:45.800)
I mean, you're in this tough position
Lex Fridman (1:05:47.360)
because you're also a creator and educator and entertainer.
Lex Fridman (1:05:50.640)
So do you try to put in time of like daily practice?
Lex Fridman (1:05:55.680)
I don't train chess anymore when I'm focusing on creating.
Botez Sisters (1:06:00.360)
I do if I'm preparing for a tournament.
Lex Fridman (1:06:02.920)
But back in the day,
Botez Sisters (1:06:04.080)
I would train very seriously for tournaments.
Lex Fridman (1:06:07.200)
And the way it would work is I do opening preparation
Botez Sisters (1:06:10.880)
for a specific tournament
Lex Fridman (1:06:12.040)
because that's when you really need to have
Botez Sisters (1:06:13.840)
those lines memorized
Lex Fridman (1:06:15.480)
and you could also prepare for specific opponents.
Lex Fridman (1:06:17.760)
And I would do tactics to make sure I stay sharp.
Lex Fridman (1:06:20.840)
So those were the two things I would do every single day
Botez Sisters (1:06:23.120)
for a tournament and then mix up the rest
Lex Fridman (1:06:25.120)
with like maybe some end games,
Botez Sisters (1:06:26.420)
maybe some positional chess.
Lex Fridman (1:06:28.080)
So what does tactics preparation looks like?
Lex Fridman (1:06:30.680)
Do you do like a puzzle, like a random puzzle thing?
Lex Fridman (1:06:34.880)
Yeah, I would just train puzzles
Botez Sisters (1:06:36.760)
for at least like 30 to 60 minutes or books.
Lex Fridman (1:06:39.760)
And sometimes you were,
Lex Fridman (1:06:41.020)
and there's different kinds of puzzles.
Lex Fridman (1:06:42.760)
One you could train for pattern recognition
Botez Sisters (1:06:44.780)
where you're supposed to go through them very quickly.
Lex Fridman (1:06:46.880)
And that's just so that when you're playing the game,
Botez Sisters (1:06:48.680)
if your mind is tired,
Lex Fridman (1:06:49.740)
it's still keeping track of things
Botez Sisters (1:06:51.920)
a little bit more easily.
Lex Fridman (1:06:53.440)
And then there's where you're practicing your combination
Lex Fridman (1:06:56.160)
and those sometimes take like 20 minutes to find
Lex Fridman (1:06:58.420)
because you have to just calculate a lot.
Lex Fridman (1:07:00.480)
And it's more like making sure
Lex Fridman (1:07:01.720)
that you've trained with that muscle.
Lex Fridman (1:07:03.020)
But Andrea is actually very good at finding ways
Lex Fridman (1:07:06.360)
to balance and still study while also doing content.
Lex Fridman (1:07:09.320)
Yeah, so what, you're able to do both?
Lex Fridman (1:07:11.680)
That's the hard thing.
Botez Sisters (1:07:12.680)
I was getting very irritated with content
Lex Fridman (1:07:14.760)
because I'm very competitive.
Botez Sisters (1:07:16.280)
I don't like playing chess if I'm losing.
Lex Fridman (1:07:18.560)
And if you're talking and entertaining,
Botez Sisters (1:07:20.260)
you're gonna be losing more games than winning.
Lex Fridman (1:07:22.560)
So then I started doing more training streams
Botez Sisters (1:07:24.800)
where I'd bring on my coach.
Lex Fridman (1:07:27.040)
And one of the things that I wanted to add
Botez Sisters (1:07:28.940)
to Alex's training repertoire.
Lex Fridman (1:07:30.600)
So I would do daily puzzles every time I'm streaming,
Botez Sisters (1:07:34.760)
which helped me a lot, even if it's like,
Lex Fridman (1:07:37.600)
there's this thing on chess.com called Puzzle Rush,
Botez Sisters (1:07:40.460)
where you have three minutes
Lex Fridman (1:07:41.500)
and you just do puzzle after puzzle
Botez Sisters (1:07:43.400)
where they get incrementally harder.
Lex Fridman (1:07:45.540)
And it's just a really good way
Botez Sisters (1:07:46.960)
to build your pattern recognition,
Lex Fridman (1:07:48.360)
especially when you're rusty.
Lex Fridman (1:07:49.780)
So I would do that till I hit a high score
Lex Fridman (1:07:51.520)
and I wouldn't play any blitz
Botez Sisters (1:07:52.860)
until I hit the score that I want.
Lex Fridman (1:07:55.000)
But that's kind of more like the fun part of chess studying.
Botez Sisters (1:07:59.000)
The very important one is actually analyzing your losses
Lex Fridman (1:08:02.840)
in your tournament games.
Lex Fridman (1:08:04.480)
And first you sit and you look through your mistake yourself
Lex Fridman (1:08:07.560)
and try to see if you can find the better moves.
Lex Fridman (1:08:10.120)
And then that's when you would check over with a computer
Lex Fridman (1:08:12.440)
to see if you're right.
Lex Fridman (1:08:13.920)
So game analysis is also very important, which I try to do.
Lex Fridman (1:08:16.800)
I remember to give a shout out,
Botez Sisters (1:08:18.160)
I listened to a couple of episodes
Lex Fridman (1:08:19.680)
of the Perpetual Chess Podcast, which is pretty good.
Lex Fridman (1:08:24.040)
But whatever I listened to, I remember the,
Lex Fridman (1:08:27.080)
it's, I think they really focus on like teaching people.
Lex Fridman (1:08:34.000)
How to train.
Lex Fridman (1:08:35.080)
Yeah, how to play, how to train, all that kind of stuff.
Botez Sisters (1:08:37.440)
They do like, yeah, I'm looking now, adult improver.
Lex Fridman (1:08:41.640)
So basically like how do regular noobs get better at chess?
Botez Sisters (1:08:46.800)
One of the things that, one of the person that said,
Lex Fridman (1:08:50.060)
I think he was the grandmaster, but he said,
Botez Sisters (1:08:52.880)
to maximize the amount of time you spend every day of like,
Lex Fridman (1:08:56.180)
basically as you were saying, like suffering.
Lex Fridman (1:08:58.280)
So like you, it's not about the,
Lex Fridman (1:09:01.320)
like you should be thinking.
Botez Sisters (1:09:02.960)
You should be doing calculating.
Lex Fridman (1:09:04.640)
So it's the opposite of what Magnus said.
Botez Sisters (1:09:06.240)
Like you should be doing a lot of time.
Lex Fridman (1:09:08.560)
It doesn't matter what the puzzle is
Botez Sisters (1:09:10.180)
or whatever the hell you're doing,
Lex Fridman (1:09:11.680)
but you should be like doing that difficult calculation.
Botez Sisters (1:09:14.680)
That's how you get better.
Lex Fridman (1:09:15.680)
Yeah, it really depends what you're training.
Botez Sisters (1:09:17.440)
Cause I used to think the same,
Lex Fridman (1:09:18.780)
but it depends what you're weaker at.
Botez Sisters (1:09:20.340)
Cause if you're doing the really difficult puzzles,
Lex Fridman (1:09:22.040)
you're training for like visualization
Lex Fridman (1:09:24.280)
and calculating more moves ahead than you typically would,
Lex Fridman (1:09:27.400)
which maybe you wouldn't get into that as often
Botez Sisters (1:09:30.080)
in a regular game because typically you run into like
Lex Fridman (1:09:32.640)
three to four tactics, which are actually the easier
Lex Fridman (1:09:35.800)
and more fun ones to solve.
Lex Fridman (1:09:37.680)
So it really depends.
Lex Fridman (1:09:39.240)
And on top of that, as a hobbyist,
Lex Fridman (1:09:41.560)
your motivation is very different
Botez Sisters (1:09:43.680)
than when you're playing from a young age
Lex Fridman (1:09:45.520)
and have pretty high competitive ambition.
Lex Fridman (1:09:48.860)
And a lot of people who are new to chess,
Lex Fridman (1:09:52.300)
you could basically work on anything and still improve.
Lex Fridman (1:09:55.560)
So if you're focusing on something you like,
Lex Fridman (1:09:58.320)
you're probably gonna stick to it more
Lex Fridman (1:09:59.880)
and be more consistent,
Lex Fridman (1:10:01.040)
which I think is more helpful longterm.
Lex Fridman (1:10:03.480)
What was the most embarrassing loss of your career?
Lex Fridman (1:10:08.320)
I had so many flashbacks,
Lex Fridman (1:10:09.840)
but I'm so glad it's a question for Andrea.
Lex Fridman (1:10:12.400)
I like that you specified.
Botez Sisters (1:10:14.360)
You know, it's funny.
Lex Fridman (1:10:15.320)
Cause.
Botez Sisters (1:10:16.160)
I mean, because you said you're so competitive and like.
Lex Fridman (1:10:19.800)
Yeah, no, no.
Botez Sisters (1:10:20.640)
I could tell just even from the way you said it,
Lex Fridman (1:10:22.560)
that like you hate losing.
Botez Sisters (1:10:24.560)
Yeah, I mean, that was the reason I hated chess
Lex Fridman (1:10:27.560)
in high school, cause it'd always be like,
Lex Fridman (1:10:29.880)
but okay, there's many traumatizing losses
Lex Fridman (1:10:32.480)
where it's like your top three, you're running for first.
Lex Fridman (1:10:34.880)
And then you throw a game you shouldn't,
Lex Fridman (1:10:36.680)
and this shouldn't hurt my ego as much as it does,
Lex Fridman (1:10:40.300)
but it's always kids.
Lex Fridman (1:10:42.280)
Or when I was a high school girl,
Botez Sisters (1:10:44.000)
it's the younger boys who are really cocky.
Lex Fridman (1:10:46.520)
And when they win, they start rubbing it in your face
Lex Fridman (1:10:48.720)
and they're yawning and looking around
Lex Fridman (1:10:50.460)
when like 90% of the game you were destroying them
Lex Fridman (1:10:53.560)
and you had this one tiny mistake
Lex Fridman (1:10:55.060)
and now their ego's huge.
Lex Fridman (1:10:57.000)
But I'll never forget I was playing like
Lex Fridman (1:10:58.920)
for a chess scholarship.
Lex Fridman (1:11:01.400)
And it was tiebreaker for first,
Lex Fridman (1:11:04.300)
and I think I lost to a 12 year old girl
Botez Sisters (1:11:06.160)
who couldn't even use the scholarship,
Lex Fridman (1:11:08.160)
but she beat me in one first place
Lex Fridman (1:11:09.640)
and she got some other prize.
Lex Fridman (1:11:12.400)
So yeah, I was losing to that little girl
Botez Sisters (1:11:13.960)
who's literally like 2300 now, so makes sense.
Lex Fridman (1:11:17.480)
Right, you keep telling yourself that.
Lex Fridman (1:11:18.840)
What do you think, do you think Gasparro was feeling that
Lex Fridman (1:11:22.360)
when he was playing 13 year old Magnus?
Lex Fridman (1:11:24.560)
Like why?
Lex Fridman (1:11:26.080)
As much as it's a beauty of the sport
Botez Sisters (1:11:28.680)
that any age can be brilliant, any demographic, anything,
Lex Fridman (1:11:33.080)
I feel like when you're adults
Lex Fridman (1:11:34.440)
and you're paired against the kid,
Lex Fridman (1:11:36.280)
it's just hard not to let it get to you.
Lex Fridman (1:11:38.760)
And it depends, maybe if they're a really sweet kid,
Lex Fridman (1:11:40.880)
but most of the times I play kids,
Botez Sisters (1:11:42.800)
they're just really arrogant.
Lex Fridman (1:11:43.920)
And I don't think they do it intentionally
Botez Sisters (1:11:45.800)
because they're kids.
Lex Fridman (1:11:46.640)
I mean, there is a certain etiquette thing
Botez Sisters (1:11:48.240)
where like you said, yawning, and in general,
Lex Fridman (1:11:51.160)
like it's not.
Botez Sisters (1:11:52.000)
If they're kids, there's no etiquette.
Lex Fridman (1:11:53.520)
Yeah, yeah.
Botez Sisters (1:11:54.360)
They don't care.
Lex Fridman (1:11:55.800)
Yeah, the kids traumatized me too.
Botez Sisters (1:11:57.520)
I was playing in Vegas and it was not even my opponent.
Lex Fridman (1:12:01.560)
It was the board next to me.
Lex Fridman (1:12:03.360)
And the kid was at least 10 years old, 12 max,
Lex Fridman (1:12:07.320)
and he was playing against an adult
Lex Fridman (1:12:08.560)
and he takes out his hand and he starts doing a fake phone
Lex Fridman (1:12:12.160)
to which the kid sitting across diagonally
Botez Sisters (1:12:15.360)
picks up their banana and starts talking like it's a phone
Lex Fridman (1:12:18.560)
and they're just mouthing words
Botez Sisters (1:12:19.880)
while their two adult opponents
Lex Fridman (1:12:21.640)
are thinking intensely at the game.
Lex Fridman (1:12:23.360)
And then I see the adult look up, look at the kid,
Lex Fridman (1:12:26.640)
just making banana phone and the despair in his eyes
Botez Sisters (1:12:29.440)
as he sighs.
Lex Fridman (1:12:31.080)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:12:31.920)
And they're not even doing it for trash talk.
Lex Fridman (1:12:33.280)
No, no, no.
Botez Sisters (1:12:34.120)
They're just bored.
Lex Fridman (1:12:34.960)
They're just bored kids.
Botez Sisters (1:12:35.800)
Yes, exactly.
Lex Fridman (1:12:36.920)
What was the,
Botez Sisters (1:12:37.760)
cause you play a bunch of people for your channel.
Lex Fridman (1:12:41.360)
What was the most like memorable?
Lex Fridman (1:12:43.480)
What's the most fun, most intense?
Lex Fridman (1:12:46.080)
There's a bunch of fun ones.
Botez Sisters (1:12:47.080)
You've played kids before, some trash talking kids.
Lex Fridman (1:12:50.680)
That sounds great.
Botez Sisters (1:12:52.160)
They trash talk kids.
Lex Fridman (1:12:53.760)
Yeah.
Botez Sisters (1:12:54.600)
Nothing like losing a 12 year old
Lex Fridman (1:12:56.720)
who then starts doing a Fortnite dance.
Botez Sisters (1:12:59.080)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:13:00.000)
So that actually happened?
Botez Sisters (1:13:01.560)
That did happen.
Lex Fridman (1:13:02.720)
He is a very young master.
Botez Sisters (1:13:05.600)
I think he became master
Lex Fridman (1:13:06.600)
when he was like nine years old or something.
Lex Fridman (1:13:08.320)
And he's very good at chess and doing a lot of training,
Lex Fridman (1:13:11.520)
but he's also incredibly good at trash talking.
Lex Fridman (1:13:13.720)
And he beat me one game and he stood up
Lex Fridman (1:13:15.760)
and he started doing the Fortnite dance.
Lex Fridman (1:13:18.960)
So you gotta just swallow your pride in those moments.
Lex Fridman (1:13:22.400)
What is that culture of like street chess players?
Botez Sisters (1:13:25.320)
It seems pretty interesting.
Lex Fridman (1:13:27.720)
Like, I don't know,
Botez Sisters (1:13:29.440)
that seems to be celebrating the beauty of the game.
Lex Fridman (1:13:31.640)
It's the trash talking, but also having fun with it,
Lex Fridman (1:13:34.360)
but also taking it seriously.
Lex Fridman (1:13:36.280)
And you've done a few of those.
Lex Fridman (1:13:37.960)
Did you go to New York?
Lex Fridman (1:13:39.600)
Yeah, in Union Square Park in Washington Square.
Lex Fridman (1:13:42.280)
What was that like?
Lex Fridman (1:13:43.920)
It's such a unique place.
Botez Sisters (1:13:46.000)
I haven't seen it anywhere else in the US
Lex Fridman (1:13:48.760)
where people are just professional chess hustlers,
Botez Sisters (1:13:52.680)
even if they're not necessarily a top player,
Lex Fridman (1:13:55.800)
but they play chess every single day.
Lex Fridman (1:13:58.120)
And so many of them learn chess by themselves
Lex Fridman (1:14:01.240)
and never had a professional coach.
Lex Fridman (1:14:03.160)
So they are quite good at it.
Lex Fridman (1:14:05.000)
They're also very tight knit.
Botez Sisters (1:14:06.760)
They all know each other.
Lex Fridman (1:14:07.840)
And it's a very social thing
Botez Sisters (1:14:09.360)
where you're not just playing chess.
Lex Fridman (1:14:11.280)
It's the experience of getting to know this person
Botez Sisters (1:14:13.520)
who's very much a personality and they talk to you.
Lex Fridman (1:14:16.400)
They could either give you tips
Botez Sisters (1:14:18.080)
or they could be really chatty and talk to you during.
Lex Fridman (1:14:20.320)
So it's a chess experience rather than just playing a game.
Lex Fridman (1:14:24.040)
Do you tell them like what your rating is
Lex Fridman (1:14:26.160)
or do you just let people, like both ways,
Lex Fridman (1:14:29.720)
do you discover how good the person actually is?
Lex Fridman (1:14:31.960)
Initially, I loved going and not telling people my rating
Lex Fridman (1:14:35.600)
and just surprising them and winning games.
Lex Fridman (1:14:39.040)
But now we've gone so many times that they just know us.
Lex Fridman (1:14:41.720)
So we can't get away with it anymore.
Lex Fridman (1:14:43.400)
One time, actually, I don't know if I should share this,
Lex Fridman (1:14:46.120)
but one time we dressed up as grandmothers
Lex Fridman (1:14:49.160)
and we had prosthetics on our face.
Lex Fridman (1:14:51.640)
And I think they still recognized us.
Lex Fridman (1:14:54.240)
Yeah, it's probably the, there's other components,
Botez Sisters (1:14:56.720)
like probably the trash talk and all that kind of stuff.
Lex Fridman (1:14:58.600)
Actually, no, it was funny.
Botez Sisters (1:15:00.200)
We were talking like grandmothers,
Lex Fridman (1:15:01.560)
but it was the way I held, it was the way I held them.
Botez Sisters (1:15:04.320)
Grandmother talk like, back of my day.
Lex Fridman (1:15:06.800)
No, no, no, no, no, no, we're not bringing this back.
Botez Sisters (1:15:10.440)
We're not bringing this back.
Lex Fridman (1:15:11.960)
Okay, what were your names, what were the code names?
Botez Sisters (1:15:14.040)
Oh my God.
Lex Fridman (1:15:14.880)
I think it was Edna, Edna, and I had a really,
Botez Sisters (1:15:19.000)
I can't remember the other one.
Lex Fridman (1:15:20.480)
But it was embarrassing because we were walking so slowly
Lex Fridman (1:15:23.400)
and Andrea dropped her cane or something at one point
Lex Fridman (1:15:25.640)
and then people in the park came to help her.
Botez Sisters (1:15:27.840)
We felt so embarrassed.
Lex Fridman (1:15:29.680)
But yeah, it was funny.
Botez Sisters (1:15:31.920)
Cause they didn't know it was us
Lex Fridman (1:15:33.240)
until he saw the way I reached for my pawn.
Lex Fridman (1:15:35.640)
And he said, the way you held your pawn, I knew it was you.
Lex Fridman (1:15:38.520)
It was like such a niche thing.
Botez Sisters (1:15:40.760)
That was what blew the grandma cover.
Lex Fridman (1:15:42.560)
Yeah, do you have a style of how you play physically?
Lex Fridman (1:15:47.080)
Is that recognizable?
Lex Fridman (1:15:47.920)
I didn't think we did until grandma went to play chess, but.
Botez Sisters (1:15:51.000)
Yeah, I've never thought about that.
Lex Fridman (1:15:53.080)
Yeah, I think our style is just trash talking now.
Botez Sisters (1:15:56.280)
Style is very, if you're talking about style
Lex Fridman (1:15:59.360)
on YouTube and Twitch, we definitely have a distinctive style.
Lex Fridman (1:16:03.760)
What's that?
Lex Fridman (1:16:04.600)
What's your distinctive, just talking shit?
Botez Sisters (1:16:06.960)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (1:16:07.800)
But not going too far.
Botez Sisters (1:16:09.240)
No, no, definitely that's, definitely going to.
Lex Fridman (1:16:12.200)
If it's us two against each other.
Botez Sisters (1:16:14.080)
Oh, we trash talk each other so hard.
Lex Fridman (1:16:16.680)
So brutally.
Lex Fridman (1:16:17.520)
And I love looking at Andrea
Lex Fridman (1:16:18.760)
and watching her little nose scrunch up
Botez Sisters (1:16:21.000)
as she's annoyed and the satisfaction
Lex Fridman (1:16:22.880)
I get when that happens.
Lex Fridman (1:16:24.800)
How many times do you play against each other
Lex Fridman (1:16:26.320)
on online publicly?
Botez Sisters (1:16:28.320)
I think I've seen a couple of games.
Lex Fridman (1:16:29.960)
We played a lot of times.
Botez Sisters (1:16:31.160)
We try not to do it too often cause it's repetitive,
Lex Fridman (1:16:33.400)
but every now and then when we haven't done it for a while,
Botez Sisters (1:16:35.880)
we'll go at it again.
Lex Fridman (1:16:36.920)
What do you mean repetitive?
Lex Fridman (1:16:37.760)
Is that implied trash talk right there?
Lex Fridman (1:16:40.320)
No, it just, we play similar openings.
Lex Fridman (1:16:42.800)
So you just start seeing the same position too often.
Lex Fridman (1:16:44.120)
It's the same opening against each other every time.
Botez Sisters (1:16:46.720)
Andrea's really good at opening.
Lex Fridman (1:16:48.240)
So I just start playing bad openings
Botez Sisters (1:16:50.080)
to get her out of her preparation.
Lex Fridman (1:16:51.880)
Cause I don't like opening theory very much.
Botez Sisters (1:16:53.680)
I just like playing the game
Lex Fridman (1:16:54.920)
and getting into middle games and end games.
Lex Fridman (1:16:57.360)
But yeah, typically the only time we're playing each other
Lex Fridman (1:16:59.600)
is when we're setting up in the park
Lex Fridman (1:17:01.040)
and we don't have opponents yet and we need content.
Lex Fridman (1:17:04.000)
So we just play each other until people show up.
Lex Fridman (1:17:05.960)
But we always put stakes on the line,
Lex Fridman (1:17:07.760)
which makes it very interesting.
Botez Sisters (1:17:09.240)
Cause otherwise it wouldn't be fun to play each other
Lex Fridman (1:17:11.000)
if there's no stakes.
Lex Fridman (1:17:11.840)
Where's the most fun place you've played?
Lex Fridman (1:17:14.360)
Is it New York?
Botez Sisters (1:17:15.440)
I think so.
Lex Fridman (1:17:16.280)
And it was actually when we set up in Times Square one night,
Botez Sisters (1:17:19.720)
we just brought a table with us and chess.
Lex Fridman (1:17:22.720)
And it's not even where people usually play chess,
Lex Fridman (1:17:25.280)
but it was so lively.
Lex Fridman (1:17:27.680)
There were all of the lights out
Lex Fridman (1:17:29.000)
and so many people just kept stopping by to play chess.
Lex Fridman (1:17:31.600)
And it was really one of my favorite streams.
Botez Sisters (1:17:33.760)
It's just the opposite of like the classical chess world.
Lex Fridman (1:17:36.800)
It's super loud.
Botez Sisters (1:17:37.720)
There's music, there's cars,
Lex Fridman (1:17:39.040)
there's street dancers,
Botez Sisters (1:17:40.200)
even some naked people walking around
Lex Fridman (1:17:42.360)
who we had to be careful not to get banned.
Lex Fridman (1:17:44.480)
But I honestly really liked the chaotic environments
Lex Fridman (1:17:47.160)
for chess games.
Botez Sisters (1:17:48.360)
Cause I think it's a good way
Lex Fridman (1:17:49.280)
to break more into the mainstream culture
Lex Fridman (1:17:51.040)
and make it entertaining and appealing
Lex Fridman (1:17:52.680)
to anyone who doesn't know anything about chess.
Lex Fridman (1:17:55.320)
So that's the way.
Lex Fridman (1:17:56.160)
And also in an authentic way,
Botez Sisters (1:17:57.600)
because it's what we really like about chess
Lex Fridman (1:17:59.960)
when you're just enjoying the game,
Lex Fridman (1:18:01.480)
but also the atmosphere
Lex Fridman (1:18:03.240)
and the people who you're playing with.
Lex Fridman (1:18:05.360)
And that's one of the things that I think you see less
Lex Fridman (1:18:07.800)
when you're just thinking of chess as a competitive thing.
Botez Sisters (1:18:12.040)
You've mentioned a few other games,
Lex Fridman (1:18:14.440)
like the Bobby Fischer games,
Botez Sisters (1:18:16.160)
the Candidates match,
Lex Fridman (1:18:17.200)
the game of the century,
Botez Sisters (1:18:19.240)
which I feel like is a weird game
Lex Fridman (1:18:21.280)
to call the game of the century
Botez Sisters (1:18:22.440)
when there's still like a few decades left in the century.
Lex Fridman (1:18:24.880)
But yeah.
Botez Sisters (1:18:25.720)
I mean, it wasn't an official thing.
Lex Fridman (1:18:27.040)
It was just the chess journalist.
Botez Sisters (1:18:28.560)
It's just like made on a chess article.
Lex Fridman (1:18:29.960)
But it's stuck if you look on.
Botez Sisters (1:18:31.320)
Yeah, no, it did stick.
Lex Fridman (1:18:32.160)
Again, Wikipedia.
Botez Sisters (1:18:33.000)
This is all I do research wise.
Lex Fridman (1:18:34.720)
Because there's,
Lex Fridman (1:18:36.960)
so that particular one was a 13 year old Fischer
Lex Fridman (1:18:41.560)
and he did a queen sacrifice.
Botez Sisters (1:18:44.000)
I wonder, there's that movie searching for Bobby Fischer.
Lex Fridman (1:18:47.280)
Was that related?
Botez Sisters (1:18:48.280)
Cause didn't they have a young somebody
Lex Fridman (1:18:51.000)
who's supposed to be kind of like Bobby Fischer
Botez Sisters (1:18:52.720)
played by Josh Waitzkin.
Lex Fridman (1:18:54.520)
Yeah, I think he ended up being an international master.
Botez Sisters (1:18:57.520)
It wasn't based on Bobby Fischer.
Lex Fridman (1:18:59.080)
It was based on another player,
Lex Fridman (1:19:00.280)
but I liked how they told it through the lens
Lex Fridman (1:19:02.600)
of being inspired by Bobby Fischer.
Lex Fridman (1:19:04.800)
Do you remember that game?
Lex Fridman (1:19:05.920)
Like why do you think it was dubbed the game of the century?
Botez Sisters (1:19:08.200)
It was just journalists being like.
Lex Fridman (1:19:10.360)
I think part of it was the atmosphere
Botez Sisters (1:19:12.720)
where you have the US junior champion
Lex Fridman (1:19:15.080)
who's this 13 year old nobody.
Lex Fridman (1:19:17.240)
And it's the first time he's playing
Lex Fridman (1:19:19.480)
in a very competitive landscape
Botez Sisters (1:19:21.240)
against some of the top American players.
Lex Fridman (1:19:23.840)
And he goes up against an international master.
Lex Fridman (1:19:26.840)
So somebody who's a lot stronger than he is
Lex Fridman (1:19:29.600)
who's played in Olympiads for the American team.
Botez Sisters (1:19:32.840)
He's having a bad tournament,
Lex Fridman (1:19:34.560)
but then he has this one game
Botez Sisters (1:19:36.240)
where he just shows off his tactical prowess
Lex Fridman (1:19:40.000)
and plays incredibly well.
Lex Fridman (1:19:41.640)
And I don't know if this is true,
Lex Fridman (1:19:43.440)
but in the paper clippings of it,
Botez Sisters (1:19:44.960)
they'd say things like grandmasters were by the board
Lex Fridman (1:19:47.200)
and they would say things like,
Botez Sisters (1:19:48.720)
oh, Bobby is lost in this position.
Lex Fridman (1:19:51.080)
What is he doing?
Lex Fridman (1:19:51.920)
But there's this 13 year old kid
Lex Fridman (1:19:53.200)
who's just playing incredibly well.
Lex Fridman (1:19:55.120)
And then that also happened
Lex Fridman (1:19:56.440)
before Bobby's started really rapidly improving at chess.
Botez Sisters (1:20:01.160)
Not that people knew that,
Lex Fridman (1:20:02.200)
but he kind of seemed like a rising star.
Lex Fridman (1:20:03.920)
So I think the game was beautiful,
Lex Fridman (1:20:05.320)
but I also think the idea of a 13 year old kid
Botez Sisters (1:20:08.480)
coming out from nowhere
Lex Fridman (1:20:09.560)
and beating a top American player was very fascinating.
Lex Fridman (1:20:12.480)
And there was aggressive chess
Lex Fridman (1:20:13.720)
and it was interesting ideas.
Botez Sisters (1:20:17.000)
Yeah, taking big risks.
Lex Fridman (1:20:18.120)
It's cool to see a 13 year old do that.
Lex Fridman (1:20:21.320)
What about the,
Lex Fridman (1:20:22.600)
you mentioned that his match against Mark Taimano
Botez Sisters (1:20:27.320)
from their 71 candidates match
Lex Fridman (1:20:29.440)
was interesting in some way.
Lex Fridman (1:20:31.000)
Why is it interesting to you?
Lex Fridman (1:20:33.800)
Move 45, I'm looking at some notes.
Botez Sisters (1:20:36.880)
This is with the Bishop E3.
Lex Fridman (1:20:38.840)
I think I know which one you're talking about.
Botez Sisters (1:20:41.120)
It's, I wouldn't say,
Lex Fridman (1:20:43.720)
a lot of these games on these lists
Botez Sisters (1:20:45.600)
I think are really great combinations
Lex Fridman (1:20:48.040)
that when tactics come into play,
Botez Sisters (1:20:50.760)
which is what we're talking about.
Lex Fridman (1:20:52.320)
But they're very good at exemplifying lessons.
Botez Sisters (1:20:56.000)
This is why you study famous games.
Lex Fridman (1:20:58.280)
So you can apply these lessons to your own games.
Lex Fridman (1:21:00.880)
And I think the main takeaway for this one
Lex Fridman (1:21:02.760)
was they're punishing their opponent
Botez Sisters (1:21:04.800)
from steering away from opening principles,
Lex Fridman (1:21:07.560)
which is something that we learned a little earlier
Botez Sisters (1:21:11.200)
where he delayed the development of his King
Lex Fridman (1:21:14.120)
and put his Queen out a little bit too exposed.
Lex Fridman (1:21:17.160)
So Bobby Fisher immediately punished that.
Lex Fridman (1:21:19.920)
And then there was just like a beautiful combination
Botez Sisters (1:21:22.320)
where it was like a 12 in a row perfect moves,
Lex Fridman (1:21:25.840)
which was a tactic, just winning the game.
Lex Fridman (1:21:27.720)
But it only came from punishing those mistakes.
Lex Fridman (1:21:30.400)
The mistake being bringing the Queen out?
Botez Sisters (1:21:32.400)
Bringing the Queen out
Lex Fridman (1:21:33.240)
and yeah, not castling your King right away.
Lex Fridman (1:21:35.960)
And these were just like opening principles
Lex Fridman (1:21:37.920)
that now they're written in books,
Lex Fridman (1:21:39.320)
but for books you would study these principles
Lex Fridman (1:21:42.360)
by studying games.
Lex Fridman (1:21:45.440)
And also, I'm looking at some notes,
Lex Fridman (1:21:48.160)
his dominance during the candidate's turn
Botez Sisters (1:21:50.120)
was unprecedented.
Lex Fridman (1:21:52.200)
He swept two top grandmasters.
Botez Sisters (1:21:54.600)
I mean, that guy's meteoric rise is incredible.
Lex Fridman (1:21:57.680)
Sad that I think at whatever in his 20s,
Botez Sisters (1:22:01.440)
he then quit chess.
Lex Fridman (1:22:03.320)
One has to wonder where he could have gone.
Botez Sisters (1:22:07.200)
Yeah, it is sad that we lost such a brilliant mind
Lex Fridman (1:22:11.200)
so early on.
Lex Fridman (1:22:12.040)
And it's also sad, I think kind of what ended up happening
Lex Fridman (1:22:15.160)
in his life and the slowly going crazier.
Botez Sisters (1:22:18.120)
Is there some aspect of chess
Lex Fridman (1:22:19.520)
that opens the door to crazy?
Botez Sisters (1:22:23.200)
Like how challenging it is on you,
Lex Fridman (1:22:26.640)
the stress, the anxiety of it, the isolation.
Lex Fridman (1:22:30.600)
And being alone.
Lex Fridman (1:22:31.760)
Yeah.
Botez Sisters (1:22:32.600)
It's a very lonely sport.
Lex Fridman (1:22:33.720)
It is, even do you guys, since you both play it,
Lex Fridman (1:22:36.760)
it's still lonely, the experience of it?
Lex Fridman (1:22:38.880)
It was when I was competing a lot.
Botez Sisters (1:22:40.960)
I think the crazy part of it for me
Lex Fridman (1:22:43.440)
was how obsessed you can get about a board game
Botez Sisters (1:22:47.400)
where you're optimizing your entire life
Lex Fridman (1:22:50.040)
to beat another person at pushing wooden pieces
Botez Sisters (1:22:53.080)
across the board.
Lex Fridman (1:22:53.920)
And it doesn't necessarily translate to other things.
Lex Fridman (1:22:57.040)
And the fact that so many people spend so much
Lex Fridman (1:22:59.760)
of their life on it,
Lex Fridman (1:23:01.040)
but you can also spend so much of your life
Lex Fridman (1:23:02.880)
because it's so deep and so interesting.
Lex Fridman (1:23:07.040)
And I mean, I've definitely experienced moments
Lex Fridman (1:23:09.600)
where I didn't want to do anything but chess.
Lex Fridman (1:23:13.440)
And I had that before I went to college
Lex Fridman (1:23:16.200)
where I just wanted to take a gap year and focus on chess
Botez Sisters (1:23:18.600)
because I went to high school, we moved a lot,
Lex Fridman (1:23:21.720)
there was always other things going on.
Lex Fridman (1:23:23.120)
So I felt like I could never really focus on chess.
Lex Fridman (1:23:26.680)
And the one time I could, by taking a gap year,
Botez Sisters (1:23:29.600)
I ended up not doing because my parents really wanted me
Lex Fridman (1:23:32.000)
to go to university right away.
Lex Fridman (1:23:33.720)
But I think maybe if I had taken that gap year,
Lex Fridman (1:23:35.960)
I don't know if I would have gone back to school.
Lex Fridman (1:23:37.600)
So maybe it wasn't a bad thing.
Lex Fridman (1:23:39.200)
I'd also say that's pretty universal.
Botez Sisters (1:23:40.760)
I think if you want to be the best at anything you do
Lex Fridman (1:23:43.120)
or any sport, you have to be that level of obsessed.
Lex Fridman (1:23:45.320)
So I don't know if that's only chess.
Lex Fridman (1:23:47.680)
Well, some things, some obsessions are more transferable
Botez Sisters (1:23:50.840)
to a balanced social life.
Lex Fridman (1:23:53.720)
That is true.
Botez Sisters (1:23:54.560)
Like healthy development.
Lex Fridman (1:23:55.400)
Yeah, chess is a lot less social than most other sports.
Botez Sisters (1:23:58.520)
Yeah, there's something deeply isolating about this game.
Lex Fridman (1:24:01.960)
I mean, the great chess players I've met,
Botez Sisters (1:24:03.640)
I mean, it's really competitive too.
Lex Fridman (1:24:07.880)
And there's something that you're almost nonstop paranoid
Botez Sisters (1:24:15.800)
about blundering at every level.
Lex Fridman (1:24:18.840)
And that develops a person who is really anxious
Botez Sisters (1:24:21.440)
about losing versus someone who deeply enjoys perfection
Lex Fridman (1:24:26.240)
or winning and so on.
Botez Sisters (1:24:27.760)
It's just this constant paranoia about losing.
Lex Fridman (1:24:30.200)
Maybe I'm misinterpreting it, but that creates huge amount
Botez Sisters (1:24:35.200)
of stress over like thousands of games,
Lex Fridman (1:24:38.360)
especially in a young person.
Lex Fridman (1:24:41.000)
And that blundering is such a painful experience
Lex Fridman (1:24:44.720)
because you could be playing a game that you've played
Botez Sisters (1:24:47.520)
for five, six hours and you have one lapse in focus
Lex Fridman (1:24:52.040)
and you blunder and you throw the entire game away.
Lex Fridman (1:24:54.600)
And sometimes not just the entire game,
Lex Fridman (1:24:56.280)
but the entire tournament.
Botez Sisters (1:24:57.280)
Now you can't place or do anything anymore.
Lex Fridman (1:24:59.520)
So you just feel those mistakes so strongly.
Botez Sisters (1:25:02.920)
Yeah, there's no one to blame but yourself.
Lex Fridman (1:25:06.320)
Are you guys hard on yourself?
Lex Fridman (1:25:08.120)
Have you been about losing?
Lex Fridman (1:25:10.600)
Like before you became super famous for streaming
Botez Sisters (1:25:13.800)
where you could be like, well, fuck this,
Lex Fridman (1:25:15.240)
at least I can have fun playing.
Lex Fridman (1:25:17.120)
So I was really hard on myself and I went to play
Lex Fridman (1:25:20.480)
a tournament in Canada to try to qualify
Botez Sisters (1:25:22.440)
for the Olympiad team.
Lex Fridman (1:25:24.600)
And I was like, well, I'm an adult now.
Botez Sisters (1:25:28.040)
I'm not gonna feel emotional if I lose.
Lex Fridman (1:25:30.880)
And then I got there on the first day.
Botez Sisters (1:25:33.440)
I think I was ranked like fourth in Canada for females.
Lex Fridman (1:25:38.560)
How long ago was this?
Botez Sisters (1:25:40.040)
This was like earlier in the year actually.
Lex Fridman (1:25:43.440)
And I go and I lose to somebody lower rated
Botez Sisters (1:25:46.440)
on the first day.
Lex Fridman (1:25:47.840)
And I think it was because I blundered
Lex Fridman (1:25:49.800)
and I went back to my room and I was like,
Lex Fridman (1:25:51.560)
I am not an adult.
Botez Sisters (1:25:52.680)
I'm not eating, I'm not leaving this room.
Lex Fridman (1:25:54.720)
I feel terrible and I know I shouldn't,
Lex Fridman (1:25:56.800)
but it just cuts so deep.
Lex Fridman (1:25:59.640)
And then I actually ended up qualifying
Botez Sisters (1:26:02.280)
for the Olympiad team, but I didn't wanna play
Lex Fridman (1:26:04.760)
because I didn't have enough time to train
Lex Fridman (1:26:06.400)
and the losses are so painful that I was like,
Lex Fridman (1:26:08.480)
it's not worth it.
Botez Sisters (1:26:09.960)
Yeah, in high school and growing up,
Lex Fridman (1:26:12.560)
I just remember weekends.
Lex Fridman (1:26:14.280)
And I think being competitive in any sport,
Lex Fridman (1:26:16.680)
again, probably people relate to this,
Botez Sisters (1:26:18.200)
which is like spending weekends crying.
Lex Fridman (1:26:20.040)
And even like Alex said, like punishing yourself
Botez Sisters (1:26:22.120)
because you're disappointed in yourself
Lex Fridman (1:26:23.920)
because you fight so hard and you prepare
Lex Fridman (1:26:25.400)
and you study and you're like, oh, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:26:29.280)
But that's once again on the bright side though,
Botez Sisters (1:26:32.840)
when you're studying so hard and after like a four hour game
Lex Fridman (1:26:37.120)
and you actually are on the opposite end and you win,
Botez Sisters (1:26:40.160)
you feel like such a huge rush of dopamine and serotonin
Lex Fridman (1:26:43.720)
and you're like on a high from the wind.
Lex Fridman (1:26:45.320)
So there's also plus sides or you can turn this around.
Lex Fridman (1:26:47.680)
But yeah, like Alex said, like losing
Botez Sisters (1:26:50.380)
after preparing for something and fighting on hours
Lex Fridman (1:26:53.000)
and hours is the worst feeling in the world.
Lex Fridman (1:26:54.760)
Did you ever get anything like that with martial arts?
Lex Fridman (1:26:58.200)
Yeah, so, you know, wrestling,
Botez Sisters (1:27:00.000)
I wrestled all through high school and middle school.
Lex Fridman (1:27:02.360)
Definitely, so it's an individual sport.
Botez Sisters (1:27:03.760)
I did a lot of individual sport, tennis,
Lex Fridman (1:27:05.720)
those kinds of things.
Lex Fridman (1:27:07.160)
But I think even with wrestling and tennis,
Lex Fridman (1:27:09.680)
you're still on a team.
Botez Sisters (1:27:11.480)
You can still like, there's still a comradery there.
Lex Fridman (1:27:14.800)
I feel like with chess, especially you go on your own
Botez Sisters (1:27:16.960)
with the tournaments, like you really are alone.
Lex Fridman (1:27:20.760)
But I mean, I always personally just had
Botez Sisters (1:27:23.160)
like a very self critical mind in general.
Lex Fridman (1:27:25.360)
I would not.
Botez Sisters (1:27:26.200)
It's one of the reasons I decided not to play chess
Lex Fridman (1:27:29.560)
because I think when I was really young,
Botez Sisters (1:27:32.480)
I met somebody who was able to play blindfold chess.
Lex Fridman (1:27:38.360)
They were teaching me, they were laying in there
Botez Sisters (1:27:39.600)
on the couch, trashed, drinking and smoking.
Lex Fridman (1:27:42.580)
And there were.
Botez Sisters (1:27:43.420)
Sounds like a Russian.
Lex Fridman (1:27:44.240)
Yeah, exactly.
Botez Sisters (1:27:45.840)
There are now a faculty somewhere in the United States.
Lex Fridman (1:27:48.880)
I forget where.
Lex Fridman (1:27:49.880)
But he making jokes, talking to others
Lex Fridman (1:27:54.040)
and he would move the pieces, like he would yell
Botez Sisters (1:27:56.600)
across the room.
Lex Fridman (1:27:58.480)
And I remember thinking that if a person is able to do that,
Botez Sisters (1:28:04.060)
then that kind of world you can live in inside your mind
Lex Fridman (1:28:08.040)
that becomes the chessboard.
Botez Sisters (1:28:09.280)
To me, that meant like the chessboard is not just out here.
Lex Fridman (1:28:12.520)
It could be in here and you could do these beautiful,
Botez Sisters (1:28:14.960)
you can create these beautiful patterns in your mind.
Lex Fridman (1:28:17.840)
I thought like, I had such a strong pull towards that
Botez Sisters (1:28:22.800)
where I had to decide either I'm gonna dedicate everything
Lex Fridman (1:28:26.520)
to this or not.
Botez Sisters (1:28:29.360)
You can't do half assed.
Lex Fridman (1:28:30.760)
And then that's when I decided to walk away from it
Botez Sisters (1:28:35.000)
because I had so much other beautiful things in my life.
Lex Fridman (1:28:37.280)
I loved mathematics.
Botez Sisters (1:28:38.520)
I loved, just everything was beautiful to me.
Lex Fridman (1:28:40.880)
I thought chess would pull me all in.
Lex Fridman (1:28:44.680)
And there was nothing like it, I think,
Lex Fridman (1:28:47.520)
in my whole life since then.
Botez Sisters (1:28:49.560)
I think it's such a dangerous addiction.
Lex Fridman (1:28:52.360)
It's such a beautiful addiction, but it's a dangerous one,
Botez Sisters (1:28:54.920)
depending on what your mind is like.
Lex Fridman (1:28:56.320)
It reminds me of something I thought of
Botez Sisters (1:28:58.920)
before I stopped competing as much.
Lex Fridman (1:29:01.360)
And I'd look at people and think,
Botez Sisters (1:29:03.360)
imagine being so intelligent that you could become
Lex Fridman (1:29:06.920)
a grandmaster and yet only spending the rest of your life
Botez Sisters (1:29:10.160)
being a grandmaster.
Lex Fridman (1:29:11.520)
Because it's one of those things where it does require
Botez Sisters (1:29:13.840)
a lot of mental power, but by doing chess,
Lex Fridman (1:29:16.640)
you're not gonna be able to explore other subjects deeply.
Botez Sisters (1:29:20.600)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:29:21.440)
And not in a way that is bad necessarily,
Botez Sisters (1:29:24.000)
more an admiration and wondering what else could have been
Lex Fridman (1:29:27.400)
because I've just seen people get to these levels
Botez Sisters (1:29:29.720)
of obsession where it's all they wanna do.
Lex Fridman (1:29:31.680)
And they're grandmasters, but they're not even top players.
Lex Fridman (1:29:34.120)
So they're never gonna make a living out of it.
Lex Fridman (1:29:36.000)
They'll make like maybe 30, 40K a year max.
Botez Sisters (1:29:38.680)
They can't even focus on their competitive chess
Lex Fridman (1:29:40.680)
because they have to supplement it by teaching
Lex Fridman (1:29:44.240)
and doing things they don't like.
Lex Fridman (1:29:45.400)
And it's just because of how strong of an obsession
Botez Sisters (1:29:48.000)
it can be because it truly is very intellectually rewarding.
Lex Fridman (1:29:52.520)
And I think that's what people are addicted to
Botez Sisters (1:29:54.320)
in the self improvement, but you can get that
Lex Fridman (1:29:55.960)
from a lot of other things as well.
Botez Sisters (1:29:58.080)
Well, I think for me, what I was inspired by
Lex Fridman (1:30:00.440)
that stuck with me is that a human being
Botez Sisters (1:30:03.400)
could be so good at one thing.
Lex Fridman (1:30:09.160)
Right.
Botez Sisters (1:30:10.000)
To me, that person on the couch drinking and so on,
Lex Fridman (1:30:11.840)
I assumed he was the best chess player in the world.
Botez Sisters (1:30:14.960)
Like to be able to play inside your head,
Lex Fridman (1:30:18.200)
it just felt like a feat that's incredible.
Lex Fridman (1:30:22.320)
And so I fell in love with the idea
Lex Fridman (1:30:24.440)
that I hope to be something like that
Botez Sisters (1:30:26.160)
in my life at something.
Lex Fridman (1:30:27.720)
It would be pretty cool to be really good at one thing.
Lex Fridman (1:30:31.320)
And like life in some sense is a search for the things
Lex Fridman (1:30:34.480)
that you could be that good at.
Botez Sisters (1:30:36.960)
I didn't even think about like how much money
Lex Fridman (1:30:38.680)
does it make or any of that.
Botez Sisters (1:30:40.400)
It's can I fall in love with something
Lex Fridman (1:30:42.560)
and make it a life pursuit where I can be damn good at it.
Lex Fridman (1:30:46.840)
And being damn good at it is the source of enjoyment.
Lex Fridman (1:30:50.560)
Not like not to win because you want to win a tournament
Botez Sisters (1:30:55.200)
or win because like you just want to be better
Lex Fridman (1:30:58.720)
at somebody else.
Botez Sisters (1:30:59.560)
No, it's for the beauty of the game itself
Lex Fridman (1:31:01.440)
or the beauty of the activity itself.
Lex Fridman (1:31:03.480)
And then you realize that that's one of the compelling
Lex Fridman (1:31:05.720)
things about chess.
Botez Sisters (1:31:06.560)
It is a game with rules and you can win.
Lex Fridman (1:31:10.440)
If you want to be really damn good in some aspect
Botez Sisters (1:31:12.920)
of life like that, it's a harder and weirder pursuit.
Lex Fridman (1:31:19.280)
Don't you feel like you kind of did that
Lex Fridman (1:31:20.960)
with computer science or AI related things?
Lex Fridman (1:31:24.120)
Like getting that level of damn good.
Botez Sisters (1:31:27.440)
That's one of the cool things about AI and robotics
Lex Fridman (1:31:31.720)
or intellectual pursuits or scientific pursuits
Botez Sisters (1:31:34.080)
is you can spend until you're 80 doing it.
Lex Fridman (1:31:36.440)
So I'm in the early days of that.
Botez Sisters (1:31:37.920)
One of the reasons I came to Texas,
Lex Fridman (1:31:40.760)
one of the reasons I didn't want to pursue
Botez Sisters (1:31:43.560)
an academic career at MIT is I want to build a company.
Lex Fridman (1:31:49.040)
And so I'm in the early days of that AI company.
Lex Fridman (1:31:52.760)
And so it's an open world to see if I'm actually
Lex Fridman (1:31:56.680)
going to be good at it.
Lex Fridman (1:31:57.640)
But the thing that's there that I've been cognizant
Lex Fridman (1:32:01.160)
of my whole life is that I have a passion for it.
Botez Sisters (1:32:03.160)
Something within me draws me to that thing.
Lex Fridman (1:32:06.640)
And you have to listen to that, to that voice.
Lex Fridman (1:32:09.120)
So with chess, you're fucked unless you like early on
Lex Fridman (1:32:13.720)
are really training really hard.
Botez Sisters (1:32:16.240)
I think life is more forgiving.
Lex Fridman (1:32:19.280)
You can be world class at a thing
Botez Sisters (1:32:22.600)
after making a lot of mistakes.
Lex Fridman (1:32:25.640)
And after spending the first few decades of your life
Botez Sisters (1:32:28.960)
doing something completely different.
Lex Fridman (1:32:30.640)
And chess, it's like an Olympic sport.
Botez Sisters (1:32:34.040)
Like there's no, perfection is a requirement,
Lex Fridman (1:32:37.600)
is a necessity.
Lex Fridman (1:32:39.720)
What do you think is that pursuit for you?
Lex Fridman (1:32:42.400)
Like why did you decide to stream?
Lex Fridman (1:32:45.560)
What drew you?
Lex Fridman (1:32:46.840)
I like these questions.
Botez Sisters (1:32:48.120)
Now we're really getting deep.
Lex Fridman (1:32:50.040)
Yeah, this is like a therapy session.
Lex Fridman (1:32:51.800)
I mean, isn't it terrifying to be in front of a camera?
Lex Fridman (1:32:55.680)
Well, it's terrifying to be in front of five cameras.
Botez Sisters (1:32:58.160)
The set up is.
Lex Fridman (1:32:59.160)
Corrections, six.
Botez Sisters (1:33:00.400)
Six, okay.
Lex Fridman (1:33:01.240)
It's more terrifying for me to try to remember
Botez Sisters (1:33:04.320)
if I actually turned them all.
Lex Fridman (1:33:06.200)
Like I mentioned to you off mic,
Botez Sisters (1:33:07.640)
I'm still suffering from a bit of PTSD
Lex Fridman (1:33:09.880)
after screwing up a recording of Magnus.
Botez Sisters (1:33:15.040)
He had to console me because that was the thing.
Lex Fridman (1:33:19.440)
I felt, okay, you wanna build robots.
Botez Sisters (1:33:24.720)
If you can't get a camera to even run correctly,
Lex Fridman (1:33:28.320)
how are you gonna do anything else in life?
Botez Sisters (1:33:30.600)
Oh no, don't let it spiral like that.
Lex Fridman (1:33:33.040)
It was spiraling hard and I was just laying there
Lex Fridman (1:33:36.240)
and just feeling sorry for myself.
Lex Fridman (1:33:38.640)
But I think that feeling, by the way,
Lex Fridman (1:33:40.760)
and the small tangent, is really useful.
Lex Fridman (1:33:44.280)
I feel like a lot of growing happens when you feel shitty.
Botez Sisters (1:33:48.240)
As long as you can get out of it.
Lex Fridman (1:33:50.640)
Like don't let it spiral indefinitely.
Lex Fridman (1:33:53.000)
But just feeling really, really shitty
Lex Fridman (1:33:55.600)
about everything in my life.
Botez Sisters (1:33:56.760)
Like I was having an existential crisis.
Lex Fridman (1:33:58.240)
Like how will I be able to do anything at all?
Botez Sisters (1:34:01.920)
Like you're a giant failure,
Lex Fridman (1:34:03.520)
all those kinds of negative voices.
Lex Fridman (1:34:06.000)
But I think I made some good decisions
Lex Fridman (1:34:08.880)
in the week after that.
Botez Sisters (1:34:10.920)
Of like, okay.
Lex Fridman (1:34:11.760)
Do you think you couldn't have made those decisions
Lex Fridman (1:34:13.160)
if you were less hard on yourself?
Lex Fridman (1:34:16.160)
Me personally, no.
Botez Sisters (1:34:18.280)
I'm too lazy.
Lex Fridman (1:34:19.600)
Okay, so you really need to be angry at yourself enough
Botez Sisters (1:34:23.040)
to go and do what you need.
Lex Fridman (1:34:24.400)
Yeah, it's not even angry,
Botez Sisters (1:34:25.240)
it's just upset of being self critical.
Lex Fridman (1:34:27.320)
Like also for me personally,
Botez Sisters (1:34:29.640)
because I don't have proclivities for depression,
Lex Fridman (1:34:34.720)
I have a lot more room
Botez Sisters (1:34:38.600)
to feel extremely shitty about myself.
Lex Fridman (1:34:41.520)
So if you're somebody that can get stuck in that place,
Botez Sisters (1:34:45.760)
like clinically depressed,
Lex Fridman (1:34:47.320)
you have to be really, really careful.
Botez Sisters (1:34:48.880)
You have to notice the triggers,
Lex Fridman (1:34:50.280)
you don't wanna get into that place.
Lex Fridman (1:34:51.760)
But for me, just looking empirically,
Lex Fridman (1:34:54.160)
feeling shitty has always been productive.
Botez Sisters (1:34:58.200)
Like it makes me long term happier.
Lex Fridman (1:35:00.920)
Ultimately, it makes me more grateful to be alive
Lex Fridman (1:35:04.200)
and it helps me grow, all those kinds of things.
Lex Fridman (1:35:06.120)
So I kinda embrace it.
Botez Sisters (1:35:10.120)
Otherwise, I feel like I will never do anything.
Lex Fridman (1:35:12.680)
I have to feel shitty,
Lex Fridman (1:35:13.720)
but that's not a thing I prescribe to others.
Lex Fridman (1:35:16.600)
There's a famous professor at MIT,
Botez Sisters (1:35:19.760)
his name is Marvin Minsky.
Lex Fridman (1:35:22.000)
And when he was giving advice about like to the students,
Botez Sisters (1:35:26.440)
he said, the secret to my success
Lex Fridman (1:35:28.640)
was that I always hated everything I did in the past.
Lex Fridman (1:35:33.920)
So always sort of being self critical
Lex Fridman (1:35:36.080)
about everything you've accomplished,
Botez Sisters (1:35:37.080)
never really take a moment of gratitude.
Lex Fridman (1:35:39.880)
And I think for a lot of people that hear that,
Botez Sisters (1:35:41.640)
that's not good.
Lex Fridman (1:35:42.600)
You should like take a pause and be grateful,
Lex Fridman (1:35:45.640)
but it really worked for him.
Lex Fridman (1:35:47.360)
So it's a choice you have to make.
Botez Sisters (1:35:50.600)
It reminds me of the quote, be happy but never satisfied,
Lex Fridman (1:35:54.440)
where you can have a positive spin
Lex Fridman (1:35:57.600)
and still want to improve yourself.
Lex Fridman (1:36:00.560)
But yeah, like when did you decide
Botez Sisters (1:36:06.320)
to take a step in the spotlight,
Lex Fridman (1:36:08.200)
that terrifying spotlight of the internet?
Botez Sisters (1:36:11.160)
It was actually my senior year of college
Lex Fridman (1:36:14.280)
and I was really busy with work and school
Lex Fridman (1:36:17.840)
and chess was kind of like this lost love.
Lex Fridman (1:36:21.000)
And the interesting thing is that
Botez Sisters (1:36:22.800)
the longer I don't play chess,
Lex Fridman (1:36:24.240)
the more I kind of miss playing it casually
Lex Fridman (1:36:26.320)
and enjoy it more.
Lex Fridman (1:36:27.360)
Cause then I start looking at it with fresh eyes,
Lex Fridman (1:36:30.040)
but I didn't have time to play tournaments.
Lex Fridman (1:36:32.000)
So I started streaming online because it was more social
Botez Sisters (1:36:35.920)
than just playing strangers on the internet
Lex Fridman (1:36:38.320)
without knowing anything about who they are.
Lex Fridman (1:36:41.120)
And I started slowly growing a community
Lex Fridman (1:36:44.440)
and got in touch with chess.com pretty quickly too.
Lex Fridman (1:36:47.480)
So then it was this hobby that I would do once a week,
Lex Fridman (1:36:50.080)
every Thursday at 8 p.m.
Lex Fridman (1:36:52.400)
And it was one of the things that brought me a lot of joy.
Lex Fridman (1:36:55.880)
And actually I, speaking of depression,
Botez Sisters (1:36:58.800)
did struggle for it with at least 10 years of my life.
Lex Fridman (1:37:02.120)
And it was one of those things where chess and streaming
Botez Sisters (1:37:06.080)
was such a distraction and it brought me such great joy
Lex Fridman (1:37:09.840)
that I just kept doing it cause I really, really liked it.
Lex Fridman (1:37:13.720)
And then I was working on something that didn't pan out
Lex Fridman (1:37:18.080)
and decided to go and take a risk and just stream full time,
Botez Sisters (1:37:21.520)
which, you know, seemed a little bit weird at the moment.
Lex Fridman (1:37:26.520)
Was that terrifying, that leap?
Botez Sisters (1:37:29.000)
It was terrifying,
Lex Fridman (1:37:30.200)
but I had taken so many terrifying leaps in the past
Lex Fridman (1:37:33.320)
and they didn't, you know, the last two hadn't worked out,
Lex Fridman (1:37:36.560)
but I was like, well, I'll get it eventually.
Lex Fridman (1:37:39.440)
So somehow having failed before and going through failure
Lex Fridman (1:37:43.440)
and knowing that it'll be okay,
Botez Sisters (1:37:45.880)
made me more likely to just try something
Lex Fridman (1:37:48.360)
that was a very, very weird job.
Botez Sisters (1:37:51.280)
Goodbye camera.
Lex Fridman (1:37:52.280)
I saw it die.
Botez Sisters (1:37:53.160)
Yeah, the camera, we don't need it.
Lex Fridman (1:37:55.840)
But one of the cameras died.
Botez Sisters (1:37:56.680)
Luckily we have another five.
Lex Fridman (1:37:58.640)
Yeah, I know.
Botez Sisters (1:37:59.880)
Like this is where this triggers the spiral,
Lex Fridman (1:38:02.080)
Alexis is gonna go to A to death now.
Botez Sisters (1:38:04.720)
It's still somehow awake.
Lex Fridman (1:38:09.200)
Is there advice you can give about the dark places
Botez Sisters (1:38:12.680)
you've gone in your mind, the depression you suffered from,
Lex Fridman (1:38:15.080)
how to get out from your own story?
Botez Sisters (1:38:18.560)
Whenever I go to those really dark places,
Lex Fridman (1:38:21.480)
the scariest thing is that it feels like
Botez Sisters (1:38:24.760)
I will never get rid of this feeling
Lex Fridman (1:38:27.560)
and it is very overwhelming.
Lex Fridman (1:38:31.680)
And I just have to kind of look back over time spans
Lex Fridman (1:38:37.180)
and remember that every single time I have got through it
Lex Fridman (1:38:39.860)
and remind myself that it is just temporary.
Lex Fridman (1:38:42.640)
And that has been the most helpful thing for me
Botez Sisters (1:38:45.020)
because I just try to combat the scariest thing about it.
Lex Fridman (1:38:49.760)
And then believe, have faith that it's gonna,
Botez Sisters (1:38:52.600)
like this will go away.
Lex Fridman (1:38:53.680)
And take action obviously to make sure it goes away.
Lex Fridman (1:38:57.000)
And I've also tried to spin it as depression
Lex Fridman (1:38:59.480)
is one of the hardest things I've had to deal with,
Lex Fridman (1:39:01.240)
but also one of the biggest motivators
Lex Fridman (1:39:03.480)
because if I just am left with my own brain,
Botez Sisters (1:39:06.400)
I get very depressed.
Lex Fridman (1:39:07.820)
Then I really like working or focusing on things.
Lex Fridman (1:39:10.640)
So it actually pushed me to try to focus on school,
Lex Fridman (1:39:13.520)
try to focus on chess, focus on whatever I'm doing.
Lex Fridman (1:39:16.080)
And also if I'm feeling really bad,
Lex Fridman (1:39:18.000)
then there's probably something a little bit off
Lex Fridman (1:39:20.680)
and I use it as a signal and try to think of it as,
Lex Fridman (1:39:23.360)
okay, this is just a sign that there's things
Botez Sisters (1:39:25.440)
that could be improved for long term.
Lex Fridman (1:39:27.760)
What about you, Andrea?
Lex Fridman (1:39:28.880)
Have you gone to dark places in your mind?
Lex Fridman (1:39:31.400)
I'd say my family, like I see Alex going through this,
Botez Sisters (1:39:36.360)
my mom also has very serious depression.
Lex Fridman (1:39:38.840)
Luckily, I got the genes where I don't go through
Botez Sisters (1:39:41.560)
that serious level of depression that they do.
Lex Fridman (1:39:44.600)
I'd say mine is much more temporarily.
Lex Fridman (1:39:47.240)
So it's more similar to what I was feeling
Lex Fridman (1:39:50.020)
when I was feeling shitty about it.
Botez Sisters (1:39:51.880)
Exactly, you go through periods, yes, exactly,
Lex Fridman (1:39:53.440)
where like, but I know that it's not something
Botez Sisters (1:39:55.840)
that's clinical and that's just a genetic thing
Lex Fridman (1:40:00.280)
or a mental thing, whereas I know it's more serious
Botez Sisters (1:40:02.720)
for like my family members.
Lex Fridman (1:40:04.680)
And I did relate a lot with you where you're saying
Botez Sisters (1:40:06.800)
where that really pushes you and I felt that a lot
Lex Fridman (1:40:08.840)
through content where you just kind of feel hopeless
Lex Fridman (1:40:12.280)
and kind of like an existential crisis
Lex Fridman (1:40:14.680)
where I don't like the content I'm doing
Lex Fridman (1:40:16.240)
and that's what pushes me to like, okay,
Lex Fridman (1:40:18.440)
you have no choice but to try something
Botez Sisters (1:40:20.300)
that now you're gonna be passionate about
Lex Fridman (1:40:21.760)
because otherwise you're gonna be stuck
Botez Sisters (1:40:22.880)
in this never ending cycle.
Lex Fridman (1:40:24.920)
So it's short term and then it helps me come up
Botez Sisters (1:40:28.600)
with the things that I enjoy the most content wise
Lex Fridman (1:40:31.080)
and it also long term taught me just how to have
Botez Sisters (1:40:33.480)
a more balanced life, like doing small things
Lex Fridman (1:40:36.000)
that make me happier on a daily basis,
Botez Sisters (1:40:37.640)
to like working out, to eating healthier,
Lex Fridman (1:40:39.840)
which I notice when I don't do for weeks,
Botez Sisters (1:40:42.180)
I just get a lot more depressed.
Lex Fridman (1:40:44.960)
What has playing chess taught you about life?
Botez Sisters (1:40:48.720)
Has it made you better at life in any kind of way
Lex Fridman (1:40:52.880)
or has it made you worse?
Botez Sisters (1:40:54.240)
You know, a lot of people kind of romanticize the idea
Lex Fridman (1:40:56.800)
that chess is kind of like life or life is kind of like chess
Lex Fridman (1:40:59.880)
and becoming better at making decisions on the chess board
Lex Fridman (1:41:03.240)
is gonna make you better at making decisions in life.
Lex Fridman (1:41:06.120)
Is there some truth to that?
Lex Fridman (1:41:09.080)
I always shy away from these comparisons
Botez Sisters (1:41:11.880)
with chess and life.
Lex Fridman (1:41:15.320)
Cause yeah, it has both positives and negatives.
Lex Fridman (1:41:17.680)
So one thing it really helps develop from an early age
Lex Fridman (1:41:21.000)
is having an analytical mind,
Lex Fridman (1:41:23.160)
but then you could also get like paralysis of analysis
Lex Fridman (1:41:25.880)
where you've just thought of everything to death
Lex Fridman (1:41:28.200)
and you're moving too slowly
Lex Fridman (1:41:29.520)
when you just have to keep going forward
Botez Sisters (1:41:31.320)
cause there's not a great path ahead.
Lex Fridman (1:41:33.560)
So it's more like exercising your brain and staying sharp
Lex Fridman (1:41:39.660)
and then also applying that to other things.
Lex Fridman (1:41:41.360)
Whereas if instead of playing chess,
Botez Sisters (1:41:43.000)
you were watching TV or something like that,
Lex Fridman (1:41:44.520)
you'd probably end up being less sharp.
Botez Sisters (1:41:47.200)
Yeah, I used to, in high school,
Lex Fridman (1:41:49.840)
I'd always preach like,
Botez Sisters (1:41:50.880)
ah, chess transfers to life skills that I would teach.
Lex Fridman (1:41:55.080)
I taught chess for juvenile department
Botez Sisters (1:41:56.960)
for a special education school.
Lex Fridman (1:41:58.360)
I'd cite studies in prisons where like,
Botez Sisters (1:42:00.860)
oh, playing chess helped them with X
Lex Fridman (1:42:02.920)
and for your kids, it helps with teamwork
Lex Fridman (1:42:05.240)
and thinking over life choices.
Lex Fridman (1:42:07.360)
And now that I'm older, I don't believe in any of that BS.
Lex Fridman (1:42:09.920)
But I do think that the process of working really hard
Lex Fridman (1:42:15.700)
at something which takes really long to see results
Lex Fridman (1:42:18.660)
and you have to be really dedicated.
Lex Fridman (1:42:20.160)
And like, I remember in high school and in middle school,
Botez Sisters (1:42:22.940)
well, all my friends, they were having fun on the weekends
Lex Fridman (1:42:25.500)
and I'd have to be there studying as a chess a day
Lex Fridman (1:42:27.760)
and knowing one day I'll pay off,
Lex Fridman (1:42:29.600)
but for like two, three years, nothing paid off.
Botez Sisters (1:42:32.600)
Kind of learning that type of patience with anything,
Lex Fridman (1:42:35.920)
it's like, you know, like getting a real job.
Botez Sisters (1:42:37.840)
I can't say I ever really worked a real job in my life
Lex Fridman (1:42:41.280)
since I went straight into streaming
Lex Fridman (1:42:42.760)
and I got to work for myself,
Lex Fridman (1:42:44.660)
but I'd say it's what people go to college for.
Botez Sisters (1:42:47.640)
Like they learn how to live in the real world
Lex Fridman (1:42:49.360)
and I'd say that that's what chess taught me as a kid.
Botez Sisters (1:42:52.360)
When you're streaming,
Lex Fridman (1:42:53.360)
when you're doing the creative work, do you feel lonely?
Lex Fridman (1:42:58.280)
So a bunch of creators talk about sort of the,
Lex Fridman (1:43:01.520)
it's counterintuitive because you're famous now, you know.
Botez Sisters (1:43:06.320)
Sort of, not quite, but we're very lucky
Lex Fridman (1:43:09.680)
to have each other.
Lex Fridman (1:43:11.040)
So is that the source of the comfort
Lex Fridman (1:43:13.320)
and like, is there some sense where it's isolating
Botez Sisters (1:43:18.040)
to have these personalities,
Lex Fridman (1:43:19.240)
they have to always be having fun, being wild and so on?
Lex Fridman (1:43:24.100)
Or is it actually the opposite?
Lex Fridman (1:43:25.540)
Like, is it a source of comfort
Botez Sisters (1:43:26.920)
to know that there's so many cool people out there
Lex Fridman (1:43:28.920)
that are giving you their love?
Botez Sisters (1:43:31.320)
It started as a source of comfort
Lex Fridman (1:43:34.240)
because it started with a very small community
Botez Sisters (1:43:37.000)
who would be something,
Lex Fridman (1:43:38.640)
it would be around 200 to 300 viewers
Lex Fridman (1:43:41.260)
and you know, only like 30 to 40 of them
Lex Fridman (1:43:43.320)
would actually chat actively.
Lex Fridman (1:43:45.020)
So you felt like it was a community, not an audience.
Lex Fridman (1:43:47.960)
So you like knew them personally almost.
Botez Sisters (1:43:49.480)
Yeah, exactly.
Lex Fridman (1:43:50.320)
And it was people who were interested in chess
Lex Fridman (1:43:53.040)
and I would really enjoy that.
Lex Fridman (1:43:55.200)
And then as, you know, we started growing bigger,
Botez Sisters (1:43:58.160)
the audience kind of changed
Lex Fridman (1:43:59.860)
where they're not there for you personally,
Botez Sisters (1:44:03.280)
they're there while you're entertaining
Lex Fridman (1:44:05.680)
and it changed for me.
Lex Fridman (1:44:08.360)
And I ended up being a lot more self conscious
Lex Fridman (1:44:11.160)
of things online and started even thinking of myself
Botez Sisters (1:44:14.280)
more like a product than a human being when I'm online
Lex Fridman (1:44:17.120)
because I had to.
Botez Sisters (1:44:18.000)
Brand.
Lex Fridman (1:44:18.920)
Yes, exactly.
Botez Sisters (1:44:19.880)
Otherwise you just start taking everything personally
Lex Fridman (1:44:22.080)
that people comment about you
Lex Fridman (1:44:23.440)
and it's based off a very small clip.
Lex Fridman (1:44:26.320)
I see, so it was almost a kind of a defense mechanism.
Botez Sisters (1:44:28.720)
Exactly.
Lex Fridman (1:44:30.400)
And it took time to get enough,
Botez Sisters (1:44:32.800)
because even if you have tough skin,
Lex Fridman (1:44:34.640)
eventually it gets to you when you're online
Botez Sisters (1:44:36.240)
every single day listening to, you know,
Lex Fridman (1:44:38.200)
thousands of people's feedback on you.
Botez Sisters (1:44:41.000)
I think the loneliest part of being creator
Lex Fridman (1:44:43.760)
is going through burnout,
Botez Sisters (1:44:45.120)
which everyone is just, it's bound to happen,
Lex Fridman (1:44:48.720)
which is why I think we're very lucky
Botez Sisters (1:44:50.200)
that we have each other because right,
Lex Fridman (1:44:52.360)
it's a numbers game and you're viral and trendy
Botez Sisters (1:44:55.240)
at one point and then you have to fall.
Lex Fridman (1:44:58.000)
And then there's months where you're just grinding.
Lex Fridman (1:45:00.080)
And I just come into my friends room and I'm like,
Lex Fridman (1:45:01.720)
Andrea, we're irrelevant.
Botez Sisters (1:45:02.880)
That's where I'm glad, that's really like the worst part
Lex Fridman (1:45:06.880)
of being creator and figuring out how to get over that hump.
Lex Fridman (1:45:08.840)
But it makes me very grateful that I have my sister
Lex Fridman (1:45:10.720)
because I know that I'm not the only person going through it.
Lex Fridman (1:45:14.680)
And yeah, I know that most of my creator friends
Lex Fridman (1:45:17.960)
feel very lonely in that process
Botez Sisters (1:45:19.400)
because they don't have someone who's their family
Lex Fridman (1:45:21.280)
and their business partner and they're working
Botez Sisters (1:45:22.680)
by each other side by side.
Lex Fridman (1:45:24.040)
You kind of tie in your self worth to your job
Lex Fridman (1:45:27.880)
and your content and maybe even more extremely
Lex Fridman (1:45:30.440)
than other jobs because you also are the entire company
Lex Fridman (1:45:34.600)
and the entire product.
Lex Fridman (1:45:35.940)
So when things are going well or when things are not,
Botez Sisters (1:45:38.460)
you just need to be careful to not reflect it like,
Lex Fridman (1:45:40.520)
oh, I am doing bad.
Botez Sisters (1:45:41.680)
I am bad rather than the trends have now changed.
Lex Fridman (1:45:44.200)
There's outside things we're gonna keep going
Lex Fridman (1:45:45.920)
and this is just the normal waves,
Lex Fridman (1:45:47.780)
which is how we think about it now.
Lex Fridman (1:45:49.680)
And also just about, are we enjoying this?
Lex Fridman (1:45:52.320)
Is this what we wanna make?
Lex Fridman (1:45:53.440)
But we were stuck in the camp for a while
Lex Fridman (1:45:56.280)
when we 10Xed our viewership after the pandemic
Botez Sisters (1:46:00.480)
because people were home and playing chess.
Lex Fridman (1:46:02.280)
And then of course that dropped by like 70%.
Lex Fridman (1:46:04.440)
And then you see that and you're trying your best
Lex Fridman (1:46:06.640)
and you just kind of have to deal with it and be like,
Botez Sisters (1:46:09.360)
okay, I'm just gonna keep persevering
Lex Fridman (1:46:11.000)
and maybe it'll get better.
Botez Sisters (1:46:13.680)
That's so fascinating.
Lex Fridman (1:46:14.560)
I mean, this is a struggle of sorts in the 21st century
Botez Sisters (1:46:20.160)
of like how to be an artist, how to be a creator,
Lex Fridman (1:46:23.400)
how to be an interesting mind in response to this algorithm.
Botez Sisters (1:46:27.180)
I'm telling you, turning off views and likes is really good.
Lex Fridman (1:46:30.480)
I don't look at Twitch views for that reason.
Lex Fridman (1:46:32.920)
And I get obsessed with the numbers too.
Lex Fridman (1:46:34.720)
And I know Andrea does, but for me,
Lex Fridman (1:46:37.200)
what I try now is to be more focused in the moment,
Lex Fridman (1:46:39.620)
but Andrea somehow can do it even with the views.
Lex Fridman (1:46:42.440)
So you just, you get, you have fun with it.
Lex Fridman (1:46:44.360)
I'm too much of like a given to the temporary satisfaction.
Botez Sisters (1:46:48.760)
Like I like seeing, I like knowing
Lex Fridman (1:46:51.080)
that if something happens right now,
Botez Sisters (1:46:52.760)
viewership's gonna boost by a couple of hundred
Lex Fridman (1:46:55.160)
and seeing that I'm right, of course.
Lex Fridman (1:46:57.180)
But what about when the viewers start dropping?
Lex Fridman (1:46:58.760)
Exactly, well, and I always,
Botez Sisters (1:47:00.600)
like you just have this intuition now.
Lex Fridman (1:47:02.760)
But I think also the reason that it doesn't affect me
Lex Fridman (1:47:05.000)
so much is when we first started our content journey,
Lex Fridman (1:47:08.880)
we were only Twitch streamers.
Lex Fridman (1:47:10.120)
And we, our livelihood were based on Twitch viewers.
Lex Fridman (1:47:13.320)
But now like I've learned how to recycle that content
Botez Sisters (1:47:16.440)
into like YouTube and shorts and other things
Lex Fridman (1:47:18.840)
where I know like, okay, if this stream does badly,
Botez Sisters (1:47:21.300)
there's so many more things you can do
Lex Fridman (1:47:22.760)
that also just have a much larger output.
Lex Fridman (1:47:24.860)
So it doesn't get to me as much as it did.
Lex Fridman (1:47:27.840)
Do you ever feel that with your podcasts
Lex Fridman (1:47:29.720)
or do you feel like it's been authentic since the start?
Lex Fridman (1:47:32.400)
No, so there's a million things to say there.
Lex Fridman (1:47:35.240)
So one is there's a reason I stopped taking a salary at MIT
Lex Fridman (1:47:40.240)
and moved to Texas is I wanted my bank account to go to zero
Botez Sisters (1:47:46.100)
because I do my best with my back against the wall.
Lex Fridman (1:47:48.680)
So one of the comforts I have is I don't care
Botez Sisters (1:47:50.620)
if this podcast is popular or not.
Lex Fridman (1:47:52.720)
I want it to not be popular.
Lex Fridman (1:47:54.700)
So I don't want it to make money.
Lex Fridman (1:47:56.180)
You're failing Lex.
Botez Sisters (1:47:57.100)
Yeah, I wanna, I mean, I just do best
Lex Fridman (1:47:59.800)
when I'm more desperate.
Botez Sisters (1:48:03.060)
That's like one thing to say.
Lex Fridman (1:48:04.420)
Seems like a reoccurring theme
Botez Sisters (1:48:06.100)
with how you build up your greatest work,
Lex Fridman (1:48:08.580)
which is honestly very respectable.
Botez Sisters (1:48:10.860)
Yeah, so thank you.
Lex Fridman (1:48:14.220)
This is like.
Botez Sisters (1:48:15.540)
I wouldn't recommend.
Lex Fridman (1:48:17.020)
Right, thank you for finding the silver lining
Botez Sisters (1:48:20.420)
for an unhealthy mental state.
Lex Fridman (1:48:24.180)
But the other thing is I was very conscious
Botez Sisters (1:48:26.540)
just like with chess and those kinds of things
Lex Fridman (1:48:29.700)
that I love numbers.
Lex Fridman (1:48:31.940)
And I would be, if I paid attention,
Lex Fridman (1:48:35.020)
if I tried to be somebody at their best,
Botez Sisters (1:48:38.300)
like Mr. Beast who really pays attention to numbers,
Lex Fridman (1:48:42.860)
I would just not, I'd become destroyed by it.
Botez Sisters (1:48:47.380)
The highs and the lows of it.
Lex Fridman (1:48:48.780)
And I just don't think I would be creating
Botez Sisters (1:48:50.660)
the best work possible.
Lex Fridman (1:48:54.220)
But one of the big benefits of a podcast,
Botez Sisters (1:48:59.220)
it's listeners and there's an intimacy with the voice.
Lex Fridman (1:49:02.780)
And I think that is much more stable
Lex Fridman (1:49:06.500)
and a deeper and a more meaningful connection than YouTube.
Lex Fridman (1:49:10.900)
YouTube is a fickle mistress.
Lex Fridman (1:49:13.140)
So it's a weird drug that like, it really wants you.
Lex Fridman (1:49:18.500)
With very addicting feedback loops.
Botez Sisters (1:49:20.060)
When you have a video that's number one out of 10,
Lex Fridman (1:49:23.420)
oh my God, the adrenaline you get.
Lex Fridman (1:49:25.860)
And then the thing I really don't like also
Lex Fridman (1:49:28.680)
is the world will introduce you as a person
Botez Sisters (1:49:33.680)
that has a video on YouTube with some X number of views.
Lex Fridman (1:49:39.080)
Like the world wants you to be addicted to these numbers.
Lex Fridman (1:49:42.300)
What?
Lex Fridman (1:49:43.140)
Because they associate it with having done a good job.
Botez Sisters (1:49:45.200)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:49:46.040)
Because that's what people think views are,
Botez Sisters (1:49:47.240)
even if it's not.
Lex Fridman (1:49:48.120)
Right.
Lex Fridman (1:49:48.960)
And primarily because they don't have any other signal
Lex Fridman (1:49:52.280)
of what's a good job.
Botez Sisters (1:49:53.700)
I think the much better signal is people
Lex Fridman (1:49:56.160)
that are close to you, your family, your colleagues,
Botez Sisters (1:49:59.020)
that say, wow, that was cool, I listened to that,
Lex Fridman (1:50:00.760)
that was really, I didn't know this,
Botez Sisters (1:50:02.680)
this was really powerful, this is really moving and so on.
Lex Fridman (1:50:05.760)
But definitely I'm terrified of numbers.
Botez Sisters (1:50:08.040)
Because I feel like, just like I said,
Lex Fridman (1:50:10.680)
I'd rather be a Stanley Kubrick, right?
Botez Sisters (1:50:16.320)
You'd rather create great art,
Lex Fridman (1:50:21.620)
not to be pretentious,
Lex Fridman (1:50:22.580)
but the best possible thing you can create.
Lex Fridman (1:50:24.740)
Whatever the beauty that's,
Botez Sisters (1:50:26.040)
the capacity for creating beauty that's in you,
Lex Fridman (1:50:28.480)
I would like to maximize that.
Lex Fridman (1:50:29.720)
And I feel like for some people like Mr. Beast,
Lex Fridman (1:50:32.400)
I think those are perfectly aligned.
Botez Sisters (1:50:35.080)
Because he just loves the most epic thing possible,
Lex Fridman (1:50:37.660)
but not for everybody.
Botez Sisters (1:50:38.680)
I think there's a lot of people
Lex Fridman (1:50:39.840)
for whom that's not perfectly aligned.
Lex Fridman (1:50:42.360)
And so I'm definitely one of those.
Lex Fridman (1:50:44.760)
And I'm still really confused
Lex Fridman (1:50:46.240)
why anybody listens to this anyway.
Lex Fridman (1:50:49.680)
But that's also something I guess you're trying to find,
Botez Sisters (1:50:53.080)
trying to figure out.
Lex Fridman (1:50:54.240)
I get very afraid of ever becoming someone
Botez Sisters (1:50:58.120)
who just makes junk food content,
Lex Fridman (1:51:00.080)
where you can't stop while you're in the moment,
Lex Fridman (1:51:03.600)
and it has all of your attention,
Lex Fridman (1:51:05.320)
but when you're done,
Botez Sisters (1:51:06.640)
it didn't really bring any value to your life,
Lex Fridman (1:51:09.740)
which is something that I think the algorithm
Botez Sisters (1:51:11.920)
still does really reward.
Lex Fridman (1:51:14.220)
And making sure that as we are learning
Lex Fridman (1:51:16.760)
how to create better content,
Lex Fridman (1:51:18.160)
it's still something that is gonna be meaningful long term.
Botez Sisters (1:51:21.280)
Well, ultimately, you inspire a lot of young people.
Lex Fridman (1:51:26.920)
Yeah, those are the best.
Botez Sisters (1:51:27.920)
When I get messages from people who are like,
Lex Fridman (1:51:30.200)
I played you a year ago, and my rating was 1400,
Lex Fridman (1:51:33.160)
and now I'm 1900.
Lex Fridman (1:51:34.200)
I'd like to challenge you again.
Botez Sisters (1:51:35.480)
It's a 14 year old writing a former email.
Lex Fridman (1:51:38.080)
Those things are always very, very fun to get.
Lex Fridman (1:51:40.720)
And even just outside of chess,
Lex Fridman (1:51:42.240)
it's just empowering to see,
Botez Sisters (1:51:44.080)
like for young women too, to see that kind of thing.
Lex Fridman (1:51:46.720)
I mean, you guys are being yourself,
Lex Fridman (1:51:50.080)
and making money for being yourself,
Lex Fridman (1:51:51.880)
and having fun, and growing as human beings,
Botez Sisters (1:51:54.880)
which I think is really inspiring for people to see.
Lex Fridman (1:51:57.680)
So in that sense, it's really rewarding.
Lex Fridman (1:51:59.300)
And then the way I think about it is
Lex Fridman (1:52:03.180)
there is some benefit of doing entertaining type of stuff
Lex Fridman (1:52:06.440)
so that you get the,
Lex Fridman (1:52:10.600)
kind of like Mr. Beast does with philanthropy, right?
Botez Sisters (1:52:13.320)
The bigger Mr. Beast becomes,
Lex Fridman (1:52:15.080)
the more effective he is at actually doing
Botez Sisters (1:52:16.880)
positive impact on the world.
Lex Fridman (1:52:18.380)
So those things are tied together.
Lex Fridman (1:52:22.320)
But of course, with podcasts, you guys,
Lex Fridman (1:52:25.440)
well, maybe you have these kinds of tense things,
Lex Fridman (1:52:28.120)
but what kind of ideas, what kind of people do platform?
Lex Fridman (1:52:31.960)
What kind of person,
Lex Fridman (1:52:36.120)
what kind of human being do you wanna be?
Lex Fridman (1:52:39.120)
Because you are actually becoming a person,
Lex Fridman (1:52:42.120)
and a set of ideas in front of the public eye,
Lex Fridman (1:52:47.240)
and you have to ask yourself that question really hard,
Botez Sisters (1:52:49.480)
like really seriously.
Lex Fridman (1:52:50.880)
Because if you're doing stuff in private,
Botez Sisters (1:52:54.520)
you have the complete luxury to try shit out.
Lex Fridman (1:52:57.240)
Right.
Botez Sisters (1:52:58.240)
I think you have less of a luxury to try shit out
Lex Fridman (1:53:01.260)
because the internet can be vicious in punishing you
Botez Sisters (1:53:04.240)
for trying shit out.
Lex Fridman (1:53:05.640)
And do you think that's sometimes a bad thing
Lex Fridman (1:53:07.640)
where you have less freedom to make mistakes?
Lex Fridman (1:53:11.800)
Yeah, you have two choices.
Lex Fridman (1:53:12.840)
So one, you put up a wall
Lex Fridman (1:53:14.920)
and say I don't give a shit what people think.
Botez Sisters (1:53:17.720)
I don't like doing that
Lex Fridman (1:53:18.560)
because I like being fragile to the world,
Botez Sisters (1:53:20.220)
keeping my, sort of wearing my heart on my sleeve.
Lex Fridman (1:53:23.320)
Or the other one, yeah, you have to be,
Botez Sisters (1:53:26.060)
you have to actually think through what you're gonna say.
Lex Fridman (1:53:30.560)
You have to think of like, what do I believe?
Botez Sisters (1:53:33.720)
You have to be more serious about what you put out there.
Lex Fridman (1:53:38.640)
It's annoying, but it's also actually,
Botez Sisters (1:53:41.360)
you should have always been doing that.
Lex Fridman (1:53:43.600)
You should be deliberate with your actions and your words.
Lex Fridman (1:53:48.680)
But I don't know, it's,
Lex Fridman (1:53:49.960)
but some of it, it's such a balance
Botez Sisters (1:53:54.040)
because some of my favorite people are brilliant people
Lex Fridman (1:53:57.760)
that allow themselves to act ridiculous and be silly.
Botez Sisters (1:54:01.280)
Elon Musk, who's become a good friend,
Lex Fridman (1:54:03.800)
is the silliest human of all.
Botez Sisters (1:54:05.440)
I mean, he's incredibly brilliant and productive and so on,
Lex Fridman (1:54:09.720)
but allows themselves to be silly.
Lex Fridman (1:54:11.820)
And that's also inspiring to people.
Lex Fridman (1:54:13.640)
Like you don't have to be perfect.
Botez Sisters (1:54:15.480)
You don't have to, you can be a weird, a giant weird mess.
Lex Fridman (1:54:19.800)
Then it's okay.
Lex Fridman (1:54:20.880)
So it's a balance.
Lex Fridman (1:54:22.600)
I think when you start to delve into political topics,
Botez Sisters (1:54:25.040)
into topics that really get tense for people,
Lex Fridman (1:54:28.240)
then you have to be a little bit more careful and deliberate.
Lex Fridman (1:54:31.320)
But it's also wise to stay the hell away
Lex Fridman (1:54:33.360)
from those topics in general.
Botez Sisters (1:54:35.440)
Like I mentioned to you offline,
Lex Fridman (1:54:36.820)
somebody I've been debating whether I want to talk to
Botez Sisters (1:54:39.840)
or not is Karjakin on the chess board
Lex Fridman (1:54:42.080)
because chess is just a game,
Lex Fridman (1:54:45.160)
but throughout the history of the 20th century,
Lex Fridman (1:54:48.480)
it was played between the Russians and the Americans
Lex Fridman (1:54:51.720)
and so on where they were at war, cold or hot war.
Lex Fridman (1:54:56.360)
And those are interesting.
Botez Sisters (1:54:57.920)
Those are interesting conversations to be had
Lex Fridman (1:55:01.500)
at the Olympics and so on.
Botez Sisters (1:55:03.280)
It's not just a game.
Lex Fridman (1:55:04.600)
It's some sense.
Botez Sisters (1:55:05.840)
It's like a mini war.
Lex Fridman (1:55:08.140)
And so I have to decide whether I want to talk to him or not
Lex Fridman (1:55:11.600)
and those kinds of things.
Lex Fridman (1:55:12.440)
You have to make those kinds of decisions.
Botez Sisters (1:55:14.440)
For now, you guys are not playing chess
Lex Fridman (1:55:16.120)
with Donald Trump or Obama or so on.
Botez Sisters (1:55:18.880)
We are not right now, no.
Lex Fridman (1:55:20.880)
How long is a stream?
Lex Fridman (1:55:22.160)
Like a few hours, right?
Lex Fridman (1:55:23.240)
Now they're two to three hours.
Botez Sisters (1:55:24.840)
When I was first streaming,
Lex Fridman (1:55:26.040)
I'd stream for like six hours a day.
Botez Sisters (1:55:28.480)
A day.
Lex Fridman (1:55:29.320)
At least usually.
Botez Sisters (1:55:30.440)
Yeah, for like six to seven days a week.
Lex Fridman (1:55:33.320)
Are you doing just like a talking one?
Botez Sisters (1:55:34.840)
No, I'd be playing chess the entire time while talking.
Lex Fridman (1:55:38.280)
And when I started streaming,
Botez Sisters (1:55:42.180)
that's kind of how everybody blows up on Twitch.
Lex Fridman (1:55:44.440)
You're just putting in crazy hours and you're always there.
Botez Sisters (1:55:47.360)
It's not about making the best content.
Lex Fridman (1:55:49.200)
It's about letting people feel
Botez Sisters (1:55:51.480)
like they're hanging out with you
Lex Fridman (1:55:53.400)
and just being on as much as you can.
Lex Fridman (1:55:55.800)
But I ended up feeling very burnt out
Lex Fridman (1:55:58.120)
because it's hard to be your best self
Botez Sisters (1:56:00.400)
when you're in front of a camera for that long
Lex Fridman (1:56:02.400)
because you do get scared of going into places
Botez Sisters (1:56:06.580)
where you want to learn, but you might not be the best in.
Lex Fridman (1:56:09.460)
Because it's harder to learn in public
Botez Sisters (1:56:10.920)
than do something that like,
Lex Fridman (1:56:12.080)
yeah, we're better than 99% of our viewers at chess.
Lex Fridman (1:56:14.840)
So that's a lot less scary than trying to play a game
Lex Fridman (1:56:18.480)
that you're bad at or discuss topics
Botez Sisters (1:56:20.120)
that you're interested in.
Lex Fridman (1:56:22.600)
Yeah, have the beginner's mind and be dumb at something.
Botez Sisters (1:56:26.720)
Right.
Lex Fridman (1:56:27.560)
Yeah, which is where the fun is
Lex Fridman (1:56:28.880)
and you get to learn together,
Lex Fridman (1:56:30.080)
but people punish you for it on the internet.
Lex Fridman (1:56:33.480)
What about you, Andrea?
Lex Fridman (1:56:35.960)
Yeah, I think like Alex said at the beginning,
Botez Sisters (1:56:38.300)
when we were grinding a lot,
Lex Fridman (1:56:39.760)
you don't really even have time for much of a private life
Botez Sisters (1:56:43.080)
because you're streaming every hour of your life
Lex Fridman (1:56:45.560)
and people want it, like the appeal of streamers,
Botez Sisters (1:56:49.160)
it's called like being parasocial
Lex Fridman (1:56:50.600)
where you feel like they're your friend
Lex Fridman (1:56:52.080)
and they like it because they want you
Lex Fridman (1:56:54.600)
to share everything about your life.
Botez Sisters (1:56:57.120)
Really the main challenge for me at first
Lex Fridman (1:56:59.880)
when trying to prioritize quantity over quality,
Botez Sisters (1:57:03.840)
which we're not doing anymore,
Lex Fridman (1:57:05.440)
was realizing that I can't turn everything I'm interested in
Lex Fridman (1:57:08.560)
and every passion into content.
Lex Fridman (1:57:11.920)
Before I'm like, well, I must stream more,
Lex Fridman (1:57:14.120)
but I like music and I like playing piano
Lex Fridman (1:57:16.920)
and I like reading into these topics and I like fitness
Lex Fridman (1:57:20.200)
and then I try to live stream all of it
Lex Fridman (1:57:22.000)
and that's just, at some point it's like,
Botez Sisters (1:57:24.680)
just enjoy your time off for those hobbies
Lex Fridman (1:57:27.500)
and prioritize what you're good at
Botez Sisters (1:57:28.920)
because that's just gonna be better for the channel overall.
Lex Fridman (1:57:32.680)
So that was a learning lesson for sure.
Botez Sisters (1:57:34.360)
It's nice because there are some intersections
Lex Fridman (1:57:36.500)
when I have tried new things that I really enjoy
Lex Fridman (1:57:38.920)
and it pays off, but that's less often.
Lex Fridman (1:57:41.720)
So it's more like you can be yourself,
Lex Fridman (1:57:43.480)
but only specific parts of yourself online
Lex Fridman (1:57:46.640)
and the rest, sometimes it's nice to just keep private
Lex Fridman (1:57:50.720)
and feel that you could just give it your 100% freedom.
Lex Fridman (1:57:56.840)
See, I feel like I try to be the exact same person
Botez Sisters (1:58:02.240)
on podcasts as in private life.
Lex Fridman (1:58:03.960)
I really don't like hiding anything.
Lex Fridman (1:58:06.840)
But you're also a generalist, right?
Lex Fridman (1:58:08.600)
Where you have people with all topics.
Botez Sisters (1:58:10.280)
For us, we built our audience off a very specific thing
Lex Fridman (1:58:13.480)
so people sometimes feel like,
Botez Sisters (1:58:15.080)
even at the start when we started playing less chess,
Lex Fridman (1:58:17.000)
they're like, I subbed for chess.
Lex Fridman (1:58:18.900)
Why are you not playing chess?
Lex Fridman (1:58:20.960)
Exactly.
Botez Sisters (1:58:21.800)
People are tuning in for an interesting conversation
Lex Fridman (1:58:23.960)
on a bunch of topics.
Lex Fridman (1:58:25.000)
So like the more you are yourself, the better it is,
Lex Fridman (1:58:27.000)
but it is very hard when you build your brand
Botez Sisters (1:58:29.080)
on like one type of gaming content.
Lex Fridman (1:58:31.880)
Build your brand.
Lex Fridman (1:58:34.680)
But yeah, the way you become a generalist
Lex Fridman (1:58:36.480)
is you slowly expand.
Botez Sisters (1:58:38.960)
It's like expand to checkers.
Lex Fridman (1:58:45.120)
I guess that's like a downward.
Botez Sisters (1:58:47.520)
Maybe poker.
Lex Fridman (1:58:48.600)
Poker, yeah, exactly, poker.
Lex Fridman (1:58:50.000)
But also just the ideas, the space of ideas.
Lex Fridman (1:58:52.940)
And one of the cool things about chess
Botez Sisters (1:58:54.300)
is when you're talking over the chess board,
Lex Fridman (1:58:56.720)
you're, it's a kind of podcast, you know?
Botez Sisters (1:58:59.920)
That is actually an idea we've had with playing chess
Lex Fridman (1:59:02.700)
while also doing a podcast and talking with people.
Botez Sisters (1:59:05.400)
It's kind of like an icebreaker.
Lex Fridman (1:59:06.720)
We're also focusing on the game at the same time.
Lex Fridman (1:59:08.960)
But you know, we are slowly evolving
Lex Fridman (1:59:11.340)
and we're doing more things.
Botez Sisters (1:59:12.480)
Like one thing we wanted to do is spend less time
Lex Fridman (1:59:15.060)
in front of the computer.
Lex Fridman (1:59:16.240)
So now we're doing a chess travel show
Lex Fridman (1:59:18.120)
where we go to different countries
Lex Fridman (1:59:19.440)
and look at the chess culture.
Lex Fridman (1:59:20.840)
So it actually feels like we're doing things
Botez Sisters (1:59:23.080)
that we would want to do and explore anyway.
Lex Fridman (1:59:25.980)
And maybe it's not as much in the idea space,
Botez Sisters (1:59:28.560)
which we both enjoy and do a lot in our own free time,
Lex Fridman (1:59:31.580)
but in the sharing cool experiences with our audience
Botez Sisters (1:59:34.760)
that we actually want to do.
Lex Fridman (1:59:36.000)
Where do you look forward to going?
Botez Sisters (1:59:37.640)
We're going to Romania on September 9th.
Lex Fridman (1:59:41.320)
And I think this is the most exciting for me
Botez Sisters (1:59:44.340)
because we're going back to, you know,
Lex Fridman (1:59:46.440)
the country where our entire family's from,
Botez Sisters (1:59:48.880)
where our grandmother taught our dad
Lex Fridman (1:59:51.320)
who taught us how to play chess.
Botez Sisters (1:59:52.960)
It has a very strong chess culture.
Lex Fridman (1:59:54.960)
So it'll be very unique to go back and see
Lex Fridman (1:59:58.920)
how everything is when we haven't been back
Lex Fridman (20:01.120)
that will be the best thing I do.
Lex Fridman (20:04.960)
And I try not to do things in my life
Lex Fridman (20:08.680)
that will prevent me from getting there.
Botez Sisters (20:10.800)
I feel like if you're always focusing on doing kind of,
Lex Fridman (20:14.880)
optimizing the thumbnail in the 10 seconds and so on,
Botez Sisters (20:17.600)
you'll never do the thing that's truly you're known for
Lex Fridman (20:21.400)
and remembered for.
Lex Fridman (20:22.680)
So finding that balance is tricky.
Lex Fridman (20:25.080)
I get that, but at the same time,
Botez Sisters (20:27.240)
this might be my own copium,
Lex Fridman (20:28.640)
which I know is a word you know now.
Botez Sisters (20:31.200)
Yeah, I'm slowly learning the full complexity
Lex Fridman (20:33.600)
of the term, yes.
Lex Fridman (20:35.080)
But the other way I think about it is,
Lex Fridman (20:38.680)
it is a skill to learn how to communicate
Botez Sisters (20:42.640)
with large audiences.
Lex Fridman (20:44.640)
And first I started streaming chess,
Botez Sisters (20:47.240)
which is something I just did and really loved,
Lex Fridman (20:49.480)
but now I have to learn how to translate that format.
Lex Fridman (20:52.440)
And if that's a skillset we could build,
Lex Fridman (20:54.240)
then we could use it to do really important things.
Lex Fridman (20:57.080)
And I've seen a lot of YouTubers
Lex Fridman (20:58.720)
who have done interviews about how,
Botez Sisters (21:01.120)
they didn't love the kind of content they did at first,
Lex Fridman (21:03.640)
but what they're doing right now is really meaningful.
Lex Fridman (21:06.040)
So I like to think of it, maybe like skill development,
Lex Fridman (21:08.720)
cause not everybody hits off podcasts
Botez Sisters (21:11.280)
where they can talk to super interesting people
Lex Fridman (21:12.960)
right off the bat.
Botez Sisters (21:14.120)
Yeah, you can be slow and boring in a podcast.
Lex Fridman (21:17.240)
You don't have to worry about the first 10 seconds.
Botez Sisters (21:19.280)
I mean, people like keep pushing me for,
Lex Fridman (21:21.200)
cause the first 10 seconds of the videos I do is,
Botez Sisters (21:25.480)
well, I know it's most important for YouTube,
Lex Fridman (21:27.080)
but I don't give a damn.
Botez Sisters (21:28.760)
I wrote a Chrome extension that hides
Lex Fridman (21:30.640)
all the views and likes.
Botez Sisters (21:32.120)
I don't look at the click through.
Lex Fridman (21:34.840)
I don't look at Twitch views, Andrea does.
Lex Fridman (21:37.040)
So we also can relate.
Lex Fridman (21:39.160)
I love numbers too, but that's why I don't look at it.
Botez Sisters (21:41.400)
Cause you become like, oh,
Lex Fridman (21:43.560)
you'll start to think that a conversation
Botez Sisters (21:45.680)
or I think you did sucks because it doesn't get views,
Lex Fridman (21:48.800)
but that's just not the case.
Botez Sisters (21:50.760)
YouTube algorithm is this monster that figures stuff out.
Lex Fridman (21:54.120)
And if you let it control your mind,
Botez Sisters (21:56.440)
I feel like it's going to destroy you creatively.
Lex Fridman (21:58.640)
So you have to find a nice balance.
Botez Sisters (22:01.040)
I have to say, I was laughing a little bit
Lex Fridman (22:02.920)
when I was listening to the Magnus episode
Lex Fridman (22:04.840)
and the first 10 minutes,
Lex Fridman (22:05.760)
you guys are talking about soccer, football.
Botez Sisters (22:08.200)
Two robots seem human in the conversation.
Lex Fridman (22:10.920)
Yeah, exactly.
Botez Sisters (22:11.920)
I was like, let's have some fun,
Lex Fridman (22:14.480)
make conversation about non chess related topics.
Botez Sisters (22:17.680)
Yeah, talk about sports.
Lex Fridman (22:19.120)
Yeah, it was kind of hilarious.
Botez Sisters (22:20.640)
I was surprised that even at his level,
Lex Fridman (22:24.800)
I wasn't sure, but I was surprised how much he loves chess.
Botez Sisters (22:28.640)
It sounds cliche to say,
Lex Fridman (22:29.880)
but like the way he looked at a chess board,
Botez Sisters (22:32.480)
you know those memes like,
Lex Fridman (22:33.720)
I wish somebody looked at me the way he still like
Botez Sisters (22:37.360)
the way he glanced down and he reached for the pieces
Lex Fridman (22:40.560)
with excitement to show me something.
Botez Sisters (22:42.120)
There was, there wasn't like, okay, I'll show you.
Lex Fridman (22:45.960)
It was like, like there was still that fire.
Botez Sisters (22:49.240)
That's something that always shocks me
Lex Fridman (22:50.840)
about some of like super grandmasters.
Botez Sisters (22:53.440)
Like one of my coaches was a person who also,
Lex Fridman (22:57.200)
his name's GM Hammer of Norway.
Botez Sisters (22:58.520)
He also coached Magnus.
Lex Fridman (23:00.280)
He was his second and he was helping me train
Botez Sisters (23:02.880)
for my tournament.
Lex Fridman (23:04.120)
And I was kind of putting off doing the homework.
Botez Sisters (23:06.480)
He's like, if you're putting it off,
Lex Fridman (23:07.600)
that means you're studying the wrong thing.
Botez Sisters (23:09.000)
Like you should be enjoying even when you're practicing,
Lex Fridman (23:11.520)
which when I grew up, I thought to get to the top level,
Botez Sisters (23:14.360)
like practicing has to be hard and unpleasant.
Lex Fridman (23:17.080)
And when I was listening to Magnus episode,
Botez Sisters (23:19.080)
he was like, I didn't read books very much.
Lex Fridman (23:20.960)
Or there was one thing that you said
Botez Sisters (23:22.040)
that's like very normal for studying classical chess
Lex Fridman (23:25.240)
that he didn't do just because it didn't interest him.
Botez Sisters (23:27.400)
He says, I suck at puzzles.
Lex Fridman (23:29.200)
I don't like puzzles.
Botez Sisters (23:30.160)
Yeah, and he doesn't do what he doesn't enjoy.
Lex Fridman (23:32.320)
And that's because it's like purely driven out of passion.
Botez Sisters (23:35.640)
I think the internet was like, I suck at puzzles too.
Lex Fridman (23:38.400)
Yeah, they like that.
Botez Sisters (23:39.240)
They're grandmasters.
Lex Fridman (23:41.600)
I don't have to study at all.
Botez Sisters (23:43.080)
It's just, it's fun.
Lex Fridman (23:44.400)
And, but I think the lesson there that's really powerful
Botez Sisters (23:47.920)
is he spends most of the day thinking about chess
Lex Fridman (23:50.000)
because he wants to.
Lex Fridman (23:51.440)
So do whatever, if you're into getting better at chess,
Lex Fridman (23:54.200)
do whatever it takes to actually just the number of hours
Botez Sisters (23:57.720)
you spend a day thinking about chess, maximize that.
Lex Fridman (24:00.400)
If you're like super serious about it.
Botez Sisters (24:02.080)
I actually get very addicted
Lex Fridman (24:03.800)
whenever I start studying chess,
Botez Sisters (24:05.720)
which is why I don't do it as seriously
Lex Fridman (24:08.120)
when I'm focused on content.
Botez Sisters (24:10.600)
Cause I go through these rabbit holes
Lex Fridman (24:13.160)
where if I'm focusing on chess,
Botez Sisters (24:14.880)
I wanna be as good as I possibly can at the game.
Lex Fridman (24:17.560)
Otherwise it's hard for me to enjoy it
Botez Sisters (24:19.320)
cause it's such a competitive thing.
Lex Fridman (24:21.280)
And I remember training for tournaments
Lex Fridman (24:23.240)
and when you're training for tournaments,
Lex Fridman (24:25.120)
you even start dreaming about chess
Lex Fridman (24:27.480)
and you can stop thinking about it.
Lex Fridman (24:29.480)
And it's as if you're flipped
Botez Sisters (24:31.200)
into this completely different world,
Lex Fridman (24:33.360)
which is also what I like best about the game
Botez Sisters (24:35.240)
that it's a completely different living experience.
Lex Fridman (24:38.400)
And then you take some drugs
Lex Fridman (24:39.360)
and now you start to see things on the ceiling.
Lex Fridman (24:41.520)
Is there some factual hallucination
Lex Fridman (24:44.400)
like to the Queen's Gambit, like those scenes?
Lex Fridman (24:48.680)
I think it's...
Lex Fridman (24:49.800)
Is that based on your life story?
Lex Fridman (24:51.640)
Well, I can't say that on camera.
Botez Sisters (24:53.520)
No, just kidding.
Lex Fridman (24:55.000)
Actually chess players are very careful to not take drugs.
Botez Sisters (24:58.360)
They drink a lot.
Lex Fridman (25:00.520)
They drink so much.
Botez Sisters (25:01.480)
It's actually crazy for how good they're able
Lex Fridman (25:03.720)
to play chess when they do.
Lex Fridman (25:05.440)
But when it comes to things like psychedelics
Lex Fridman (25:07.800)
or other things, they usually stay away from those
Botez Sisters (25:10.240)
cause they don't wanna mess anything up in their brain.
Lex Fridman (25:12.200)
So this is actually intervention.
Botez Sisters (25:13.920)
I saw that you mentioned somewhere,
Lex Fridman (25:17.040)
I think it was the lie detector test
Botez Sisters (25:18.320)
where you have a drinking problem.
Lex Fridman (25:20.040)
Is that an actual...
Botez Sisters (25:22.280)
I think that's actually a meme
Lex Fridman (25:25.320)
that we like to joke about on stream
Botez Sisters (25:27.240)
because occasionally we'd have like a white claw on stream
Lex Fridman (25:29.920)
or something like that.
Lex Fridman (25:31.000)
And then people meme about it.
Lex Fridman (25:32.200)
It goes back to Andrea's point
Botez Sisters (25:33.600)
of amplifying a part of your personality
Lex Fridman (25:36.600)
to make yourself a little bit more entertaining.
Botez Sisters (25:39.520)
I'm gonna use that as an excuse from now on.
Lex Fridman (25:41.920)
This podcast is just amplifying a part of that personality.
Lex Fridman (25:45.360)
I'm not really like this, but have you played drunk?
Lex Fridman (25:48.760)
Like Magnus has played drunk.
Botez Sisters (25:50.640)
He says it helps someone with the creativity.
Lex Fridman (25:52.520)
Is there any truth to that?
Botez Sisters (25:53.880)
Well, Andrea is under 21,
Lex Fridman (25:55.360)
so she's obviously would never do that.
Lex Fridman (25:59.080)
But I have played while drinking.
Lex Fridman (26:01.200)
Actually, I enjoy playing chess and drinking
Botez Sisters (26:05.520)
more than pre gaming or going out to a club and drinking,
Lex Fridman (26:08.840)
which sounds really silly.
Lex Fridman (26:10.240)
And I'll usually play against opponents
Lex Fridman (26:11.800)
who are also having some beer.
Lex Fridman (26:14.040)
And it does make you feel like you're seeing the game
Lex Fridman (26:17.120)
from a fresher perspective
Botez Sisters (26:18.720)
where it can sometimes make you feel more confident,
Lex Fridman (26:22.200)
liquid confidence, and it does help with creativity.
Botez Sisters (26:24.840)
You just feel like you could pull things off,
Lex Fridman (26:27.480)
but there's also a limit.
Botez Sisters (26:28.440)
It's more like you've had one drink or two drink,
Lex Fridman (26:30.440)
but then it goes beyond that.
Lex Fridman (26:31.840)
And then you just start missing tactics
Lex Fridman (26:33.560)
and it's not worth it.
Botez Sisters (26:34.560)
Yeah, I think it only helps players
Lex Fridman (26:36.400)
in very short time controls.
Botez Sisters (26:38.040)
One time I was challenging this grandmaster on stream
Lex Fridman (26:40.640)
and we were playing bullet chess,
Botez Sisters (26:42.280)
which is one minute chess.
Lex Fridman (26:44.000)
And I was giving him handicaps.
Lex Fridman (26:45.520)
And I said, okay, you have to take four shots
Lex Fridman (26:47.360)
before the next game.
Lex Fridman (26:48.600)
And he just got like 10 times stronger
Lex Fridman (26:50.720)
and transformed into like the Hulk
Lex Fridman (26:52.440)
and destroyed me more than the last game.
Lex Fridman (26:55.240)
But of course, if you're playing like a three hour game,
Botez Sisters (26:57.840)
it's gonna get old.
Lex Fridman (26:58.680)
But I think in short time controls, it's amazing.
Botez Sisters (27:00.960)
Yeah, definitely has to be blitz.
Lex Fridman (27:02.560)
It has to be where it's more intuition
Botez Sisters (27:04.520)
rather than sitting and calculating.
Lex Fridman (27:06.360)
This is probably like negatively affecting
Botez Sisters (27:08.160)
your ability to calculate.
Lex Fridman (27:09.160)
Absolutely, yeah.
Lex Fridman (27:10.440)
How much when you guys play,
Lex Fridman (27:11.720)
when you look at the chess board,
Lex Fridman (27:12.760)
how much of it is calculation?
Lex Fridman (27:14.120)
How much of it is intuition?
Lex Fridman (27:17.520)
How much of it is memorized openings?
Lex Fridman (27:22.480)
It really depends between short form chess.
Lex Fridman (27:25.680)
So five minutes, three minutes, one minute
Lex Fridman (27:27.720)
and classical chess.
Lex Fridman (27:29.040)
What's your favorite to play?
Lex Fridman (27:30.040)
I love playing blitz now because that's most of what I do.
Lex Fridman (27:33.440)
And that's actually how I got into chess streaming
Lex Fridman (27:35.440)
because I couldn't spend entire weekends
Botez Sisters (27:37.240)
or weeks playing tournaments.
Lex Fridman (27:38.400)
I would just, while I was in college, log on
Lex Fridman (27:40.960)
and play these long blitz or bullet sessions.
Lex Fridman (27:43.640)
And it's very fast.
Lex Fridman (27:44.960)
So you don't have time to go calculate as deeply.
Lex Fridman (27:48.400)
You basically have to calculate short lines pretty quickly.
Lex Fridman (27:51.640)
And a lot of it is pattern recognition and intuition.
Lex Fridman (27:55.240)
As three minutes, you said?
Botez Sisters (27:56.320)
Three minutes, yeah.
Lex Fridman (27:57.520)
Okay, cool.
Lex Fridman (27:58.360)
And so for that, it's just basically intuition.
Lex Fridman (28:00.920)
A lot of it is intuition, yeah.
Botez Sisters (28:02.760)
See, I saw on streams you actually keep talking
Lex Fridman (28:04.880)
while playing chess.
Botez Sisters (28:05.720)
It seems really difficult.
Lex Fridman (28:06.560)
Yeah, that helps my result.
Botez Sisters (28:07.400)
That doesn't help my result.
Lex Fridman (28:08.640)
It doesn't, it hurts.
Botez Sisters (28:09.480)
It helps content, not the game.
Lex Fridman (28:10.520)
Yeah, exactly.
Lex Fridman (28:11.600)
But you can still do it.
Lex Fridman (28:12.920)
Because it feels like how can you possibly concentrate
Lex Fridman (28:15.520)
while talking?
Lex Fridman (28:17.040)
It's because so much of it is intuition.
Botez Sisters (28:19.160)
You're not, while you're talking,
Lex Fridman (28:20.760)
you're thinking about that topic,
Lex Fridman (28:22.120)
but then you just come to the board
Lex Fridman (28:23.360)
and you just understand what you should be doing here.
Lex Fridman (28:26.200)
And then sometimes you get in trouble
Lex Fridman (28:28.080)
because you're talking and you have now lost
Botez Sisters (28:29.840)
half of your time.
Lex Fridman (28:30.680)
You have a minute and a half, your opponent has three,
Lex Fridman (28:32.520)
and you're kind of at a disadvantage.
Lex Fridman (28:34.360)
But that kind of goes to show
Botez Sisters (28:36.840)
that that's how blitz chess usually works,
Lex Fridman (28:38.680)
whereas classical is very different.
Lex Fridman (28:40.200)
Which of you is better at chess?
Lex Fridman (28:41.840)
I mean, let's do it this way.
Lex Fridman (28:43.200)
Can you, Andrea, can you say what,
Lex Fridman (28:47.680)
in which way is Alex stronger than you?
Lex Fridman (28:49.840)
Which way is she weaker than you?
Lex Fridman (28:51.680)
Not physically in terms of chess.
Botez Sisters (28:56.000)
Well, yes, of course she is higher rated.
Lex Fridman (28:58.240)
But when we do play, I think her strengths against me
Botez Sisters (29:01.800)
where she really gets me is the end game.
Lex Fridman (29:03.640)
She has stronger end game, so she can,
Lex Fridman (29:06.080)
and I actually have a stronger opening,
Lex Fridman (29:08.280)
but as soon as she's able to simplify.
Botez Sisters (29:09.120)
Andrea, I'm supposed to say what is good about you,
Lex Fridman (29:11.400)
not you.
Botez Sisters (29:12.240)
You know, I'm getting there.
Lex Fridman (29:13.640)
Well, see, this is what I'm saying,
Lex Fridman (29:14.840)
because don't worry, it's related, okay?
Lex Fridman (29:17.400)
Because if I can get an advantage
Botez Sisters (29:19.200)
in the beginning of the game,
Lex Fridman (29:20.200)
but as soon as she starts trading pieces down,
Botez Sisters (29:22.160)
like my confidence drops,
Lex Fridman (29:23.440)
because I know that the end game
Botez Sisters (29:25.160)
is the hardest part of the game and the longest,
Lex Fridman (29:27.520)
and that's where she ends up beating me.
Lex Fridman (29:29.240)
So her end game is I think really what makes the difference.
Lex Fridman (29:32.840)
It sounds like her psychological warfare is better too,
Botez Sisters (29:36.960)
because if you're getting nervous.
Lex Fridman (29:39.040)
But it's harder to play against higher rated players,
Botez Sisters (29:41.360)
same how Magnus and former world champions
Lex Fridman (29:44.920)
have that psychological edge.
Lex Fridman (29:46.560)
So I think it's always going to be different for Andrea,
Lex Fridman (29:48.560)
because she knows statistically
Botez Sisters (29:50.360)
she should be winning something like one in four games,
Lex Fridman (29:52.920)
but she usually does better than that,
Botez Sisters (29:55.120)
because she's very distracting and talks a lot.
Lex Fridman (29:58.000)
That does help.
Lex Fridman (29:59.080)
What does it feel like to play a higher rated player?
Lex Fridman (2:00:00.600)
for a very long time.
Lex Fridman (2:00:01.640)
And for Romanians, like it's very rare
Lex Fridman (2:00:04.680)
when there's like a famous Romanian
Botez Sisters (2:00:06.200)
who accomplishes something,
Lex Fridman (2:00:07.880)
which is why like right now,
Botez Sisters (2:00:09.080)
Andrew Tate's the most famous Romanian.
Lex Fridman (2:00:10.800)
But he's banned for a bad reason.
Botez Sisters (2:00:12.640)
Exactly.
Lex Fridman (2:00:13.680)
And there's like something very special
Botez Sisters (2:00:15.400)
about Romanian pride.
Lex Fridman (2:00:17.400)
And when we meet fellow Romanians in the US,
Botez Sisters (2:00:19.640)
like it's just an amazing connection.
Lex Fridman (2:00:22.120)
And like, I hear the way my dad talk about like,
Botez Sisters (2:00:24.640)
for example, Nadia, who was a famous Romanian gymnast
Lex Fridman (2:00:28.560)
and he's like, yeah, like Romania,
Botez Sisters (2:00:30.080)
we sucked at everything.
Lex Fridman (2:00:31.180)
But when she won the Olympics for gymnast,
Botez Sisters (2:00:34.560)
every kid on the street was doing gymnastics
Lex Fridman (2:00:36.440)
because it's very rare that they make it
Botez Sisters (2:00:38.440)
to that level of success.
Lex Fridman (2:00:39.480)
And I'm not saying that we're super successful,
Botez Sisters (2:00:40.840)
super famous, but it is really cool
Lex Fridman (2:00:42.780)
to meet other Romanians through chess
Botez Sisters (2:00:44.120)
because it's a very special bond.
Lex Fridman (2:00:45.920)
Yeah, you feel like it's a community and like you belong.
Botez Sisters (2:00:50.400)
Yeah, you can't get that anywhere else.
Lex Fridman (2:00:53.320)
Let me ask your opinion since you mentioned him,
Botez Sisters (2:00:55.560)
Andrew Tate, you're both women, successful women,
Lex Fridman (2:00:59.680)
you're both creators.
Lex Fridman (2:01:01.200)
So Andrew Tate is an example of somebody
Lex Fridman (2:01:03.720)
that has become exceptionally successful
Botez Sisters (2:01:06.160)
at galvanizing public attention,
Lex Fridman (2:01:10.320)
but he's also, from many perspective, a misogynist.
Lex Fridman (2:01:13.600)
So let me ask a personal question.
Lex Fridman (2:01:16.680)
Do you think I should talk to him on this podcast?
Lex Fridman (2:01:19.180)
How would you feel as a fan as somebody,
Lex Fridman (2:01:24.500)
I'm talking to the great Alex and Andrea Botez
Lex Fridman (2:01:29.420)
and the next episode is with Andrew Tate?
Lex Fridman (2:01:32.220)
I think it's a double edged sword
Lex Fridman (2:01:34.560)
and most of these things are not as black and white
Lex Fridman (2:01:37.860)
as they seem, you know,
Botez Sisters (2:01:39.940)
because on one hand, I don't agree with his beliefs
Lex Fridman (2:01:43.340)
and I think he said a lot of things that are very hurtful
Lex Fridman (2:01:45.900)
and that influence people's opinions.
Lex Fridman (2:01:51.140)
At the same time, talking to someone through that
Lex Fridman (2:01:54.820)
and trying to get to the root of it
Lex Fridman (2:01:57.100)
and how much of it he used just as a social media tactic
Botez Sisters (2:02:01.020)
to maybe change the opinion of people
Lex Fridman (2:02:03.580)
who have been so influenced by him towards
Botez Sisters (2:02:06.500)
something that is maybe more understanding towards women
Lex Fridman (2:02:08.980)
or things like that could do some good,
Lex Fridman (2:02:12.460)
but at the same time, platforming someone like that
Lex Fridman (2:02:15.220)
and giving them more attention also signals to other people
Botez Sisters (2:02:18.260)
who have a platform that it's okay,
Lex Fridman (2:02:20.060)
so it's kind of weighing the pluses and the minuses
Lex Fridman (2:02:22.580)
and it's a very tough decision because it's not clear.
Lex Fridman (2:02:25.980)
And the thing about the internet,
Botez Sisters (2:02:28.260)
you make the wrong decision, you're gonna pay for it.
Lex Fridman (2:02:30.440)
Right.
Botez Sisters (2:02:32.580)
That's the thing, like personally,
Lex Fridman (2:02:34.620)
and it is funny, like I think the whole way
Botez Sisters (2:02:37.340)
you rose to fame is just a growth hack
Lex Fridman (2:02:39.060)
and I've seen other people do it
Botez Sisters (2:02:40.420)
where like you just say kind of,
Lex Fridman (2:02:42.680)
I don't, honestly, I don't really listen to his content
Botez Sisters (2:02:45.680)
because I just find it so dumb,
Lex Fridman (2:02:46.980)
but I think he knows that by saying the dumbest,
Botez Sisters (2:02:49.620)
most controversial things, that's like a quick rise to fame
Lex Fridman (2:02:52.860)
and I think surface level, like he can really hold it up,
Lex Fridman (2:02:56.460)
but that's why I would honestly enjoy tuning
Lex Fridman (2:02:58.620)
into a conversation where you're really breaking down
Botez Sisters (2:03:00.780)
to the core of those beliefs
Lex Fridman (2:03:02.140)
and I think like young kids who look up to him
Lex Fridman (2:03:04.660)
and when you actually hear someone challenging it
Lex Fridman (2:03:06.900)
could actually be helpful for people,
Lex Fridman (2:03:09.100)
but at the same time, it's a lot of bad publicity,
Lex Fridman (2:03:12.300)
people see your podcast, they see, wow,
Botez Sisters (2:03:13.880)
like if they don't know you
Lex Fridman (2:03:16.020)
and they don't know why you're interviewing him
Lex Fridman (2:03:17.580)
and they don't listen, they'll see that
Lex Fridman (2:03:18.920)
and then 100% think it's for the other reason.
Lex Fridman (2:03:22.320)
But I'm also afraid of a society
Lex Fridman (2:03:24.220)
where you can't have discourse
Botez Sisters (2:03:25.700)
with people you disagree with
Lex Fridman (2:03:29.000)
and even though I don't like Andrew Tate,
Botez Sisters (2:03:31.100)
I think the fact that he got banned from all the platforms
Lex Fridman (2:03:33.840)
is kind of scary because it sets a precedent
Lex Fridman (2:03:36.860)
and you always have to ask yourself,
Lex Fridman (2:03:38.160)
would this be ethical if I was on the other side
Lex Fridman (2:03:40.660)
and even things with a president like Trump,
Lex Fridman (2:03:42.620)
even if let's say you're somebody who was on the left,
Botez Sisters (2:03:45.700)
if that would have happened to a leftist president,
Lex Fridman (2:03:47.620)
how would you feel?
Lex Fridman (2:03:48.460)
Would you think that's morally ethical?
Lex Fridman (2:03:49.860)
So that is something that I think is important.
Botez Sisters (2:03:54.060)
We try to find ways to have conversations
Lex Fridman (2:03:56.380)
and reach some mutual understanding
Lex Fridman (2:03:59.100)
and try instead of just amplifying the worst
Lex Fridman (2:04:02.100)
about every human being.
Botez Sisters (2:04:04.620)
Well, so one of the major reasons I'm struggling with
Lex Fridman (2:04:07.560)
is because I really enjoy talking to brilliant women.
Botez Sisters (2:04:11.580)
I think it's also, a lot of women reached out to me
Lex Fridman (2:04:14.860)
saying like, it is what it is,
Lex Fridman (2:04:17.900)
but they're inspired when the female guest is on.
Lex Fridman (2:04:20.060)
And to me, if I talk to somebody like Andrew Tate,
Botez Sisters (2:04:23.260)
even if I have a really hard hitting,
Lex Fridman (2:04:25.440)
I think it could be a very good conversation
Botez Sisters (2:04:29.460)
that lessens the likelihood
Lex Fridman (2:04:32.340)
that a brilliant, powerful female will go on the show.
Botez Sisters (2:04:37.700)
Because they'll never watch it,
Lex Fridman (2:04:39.820)
but the thing we do in this society
Botez Sisters (2:04:41.580)
is we put labels on each other.
Lex Fridman (2:04:42.700)
Well, Lex is the person that platforms misogynists.
Botez Sisters (2:04:48.100)
I did a thing where Joe Rogan got in trouble
Lex Fridman (2:04:53.340)
over an N word controversy earlier in the year.
Lex Fridman (2:04:56.780)
And Joe's a good friend of mine
Lex Fridman (2:04:58.740)
and I said that I stand with Joe,
Botez Sisters (2:05:00.500)
that he's not a racist or something like that.
Lex Fridman (2:05:02.900)
And within certain communities,
Lex Fridman (2:05:06.460)
I'm now somebody who's an apologist for racists, right?
Lex Fridman (2:05:09.840)
Or a racist myself, that kind of thing.
Lex Fridman (2:05:12.340)
And we put labels without ever listening to the content,
Lex Fridman (2:05:14.620)
without ever sort of,
Botez Sisters (2:05:17.060)
actually just even the very simple step
Lex Fridman (2:05:19.540)
or it seems to be difficult of like,
Botez Sisters (2:05:25.360)
taking on the best possible interpretation
Lex Fridman (2:05:27.180)
of what a person said
Lex Fridman (2:05:28.580)
and giving them the benefit of the doubt
Lex Fridman (2:05:30.460)
and having empathy for another person.
Lex Fridman (2:05:31.900)
So you have to play in this field
Lex Fridman (2:05:34.340)
where people will assign labels to each other
Lex Fridman (2:05:36.700)
and it's difficult.
Lex Fridman (2:05:39.380)
But ultimately, I believe,
Botez Sisters (2:05:40.760)
I hope that good conversations is a way
Lex Fridman (2:05:45.020)
to like a greater understanding for people
Botez Sisters (2:05:46.780)
to grow together as a society
Lex Fridman (2:05:50.020)
and improve and learn the lessons,
Botez Sisters (2:05:51.460)
the mistakes of the past.
Lex Fridman (2:05:52.460)
But you also have to play this game
Botez Sisters (2:05:54.460)
where people just like putting labels on each other
Lex Fridman (2:05:56.820)
and canceling each other over those.
Botez Sisters (2:05:58.540)
Or that guy said one thing nice about Donald Trump,
Lex Fridman (2:06:01.580)
he must be a far right Nazi.
Botez Sisters (2:06:04.860)
Or the opposite,
Lex Fridman (2:06:06.300)
that this person said something nice about the vaccine,
Botez Sisters (2:06:11.020)
he must be a far left whatever,
Lex Fridman (2:06:13.780)
because apologist for whatever, for Fauci.
Botez Sisters (2:06:20.580)
Or most of us I think are ultimately in the middle.
Lex Fridman (2:06:23.240)
It's a weird, it's a weird thing.
Lex Fridman (2:06:25.540)
But I think, and it's also painful on a personal level.
Lex Fridman (2:06:28.140)
Like people have written to me
Botez Sisters (2:06:32.020)
about things like single words,
Lex Fridman (2:06:35.100)
half sentences that I've said about either Putin or Zelensky
Botez Sisters (2:06:39.940)
where they have hate towards me because of what I said.
Lex Fridman (2:06:43.900)
Either both directions.
Botez Sisters (2:06:45.300)
I've now accumulated very passionate people
Lex Fridman (2:06:48.620)
that some call me a Putin apologist,
Botez Sisters (2:06:52.140)
some call me a Zelensky apologist.
Lex Fridman (2:06:54.460)
And it hurts to, given how much I have family there,
Lex Fridman (2:06:58.740)
how much I've seen of suffering there,
Lex Fridman (2:07:00.780)
and to carry that burden over time
Lex Fridman (2:07:02.620)
and not let it destroy you is tough.
Lex Fridman (2:07:04.560)
So like, do you wanna take on another thing like that
Lex Fridman (2:07:07.940)
when you have conversations?
Lex Fridman (2:07:09.900)
Or can I just talk to awesome people like you two?
Botez Sisters (2:07:13.140)
Where it's not that burden.
Lex Fridman (2:07:14.260)
We're not controversial.
Botez Sisters (2:07:16.140)
Or you're interesting, you're fascinating,
Lex Fridman (2:07:17.660)
you're inspiring, you're like fun.
Botez Sisters (2:07:21.000)
Not all those difficult things that come with more difficult
Lex Fridman (2:07:24.980)
conversations.
Botez Sisters (2:07:25.820)
Right.
Lex Fridman (2:07:26.640)
But somebody has to be making those difficult decisions
Lex Fridman (2:07:30.100)
and challenging the notions that we should cancel someone
Lex Fridman (2:07:35.160)
just for slightly disagreeing with us.
Lex Fridman (2:07:37.600)
And it's very hard to take that on personally.
Lex Fridman (2:07:40.580)
And I think that's a huge part of it.
Botez Sisters (2:07:42.220)
When you know it's something you're doing
Lex Fridman (2:07:44.220)
for the right reasons and you're getting a lot of people
Botez Sisters (2:07:46.740)
coming and misinterpreting it, it's very painful.
Lex Fridman (2:07:52.620)
But I think you have to ask yourself long term
Botez Sisters (2:07:56.340)
if when you made that decision, you ultimately thought
Lex Fridman (2:07:58.700)
it would be better or worse for your listeners
Botez Sisters (2:08:01.380)
to know that conversation.
Lex Fridman (2:08:02.740)
And then if you can sleep with it at night, take the risk.
Botez Sisters (2:08:05.780)
Yeah, actually when I talk to people that,
Lex Fridman (2:08:08.540)
especially astrophysicists, and you realize
Lex Fridman (2:08:10.460)
how tiny we are.
Lex Fridman (2:08:11.680)
Right.
Lex Fridman (2:08:12.520)
How incredible, like how huge the universe is.
Lex Fridman (2:08:14.620)
Like you don't, it doesn't matter, you can do anything.
Botez Sisters (2:08:16.900)
You could like, you can walk around naked,
Lex Fridman (2:08:20.820)
talk shit to people, do whatever the hell.
Lex Fridman (2:08:23.260)
And actually in modern social media,
Lex Fridman (2:08:25.520)
people just like forget.
Botez Sisters (2:08:26.940)
It's like, it's ultimately liberating.
Lex Fridman (2:08:29.100)
Just try to do, at least from my perspective,
Botez Sisters (2:08:32.460)
the best possible thing for the world you can.
Lex Fridman (2:08:34.660)
Take big risks, and it doesn't matter.
Lex Fridman (2:08:37.220)
And that's the other thing with being canceled nowadays
Lex Fridman (2:08:39.540)
because everyone's attention is much more shortsighted.
Botez Sisters (2:08:43.300)
You can get canceled and then it'll blow over in three days.
Lex Fridman (2:08:46.060)
And you actually see things like this on Twitch very often
Botez Sisters (2:08:48.340)
where people just have bursts of outrage
Lex Fridman (2:08:51.180)
and they come into your chat and they're all spamming
Lex Fridman (2:08:53.200)
and saying mean things, and then three days after.
Lex Fridman (2:08:55.600)
And of course they're not actually ever serious things.
Botez Sisters (2:08:57.880)
They're usually like things clipped of any streamers
Lex Fridman (2:09:00.020)
in like their worst moments, but then people forget
Botez Sisters (2:09:01.980)
about it pretty soon after.
Lex Fridman (2:09:04.900)
So you're able to accept that?
Lex Fridman (2:09:06.900)
Like when somebody is being shitty to you for a day?
Lex Fridman (2:09:09.820)
Yeah, I mean, I still get sometimes emotional about it,
Botez Sisters (2:09:12.720)
especially when I'm like, oh wow,
Lex Fridman (2:09:14.500)
these things that are being said are not true
Botez Sisters (2:09:16.660)
or like this was clearly taken out of context,
Lex Fridman (2:09:19.220)
but I've just accepted that it's part of the job.
Lex Fridman (2:09:22.380)
And if I am trying my best and I am trying things
Lex Fridman (2:09:26.780)
with as good intentions as possible,
Botez Sisters (2:09:29.180)
then I just try to learn every time that happens
Lex Fridman (2:09:31.040)
and be like, okay, what could I do better?
Lex Fridman (2:09:32.820)
And what is just part of the job?
Lex Fridman (2:09:35.700)
Well, let's start some controversy.
Lex Fridman (2:09:37.140)
Who's the greatest chess player of all time?
Lex Fridman (2:09:39.340)
Is it Magnus Carlsen, is it Gary Kasparov,
Lex Fridman (2:09:43.260)
is it somebody else, Bobby Fischer?
Lex Fridman (2:09:46.200)
Do you have a favorite, Alex?
Lex Fridman (2:09:48.300)
So whenever I hear this question,
Lex Fridman (2:09:50.780)
I interpret it in a very specific way
Botez Sisters (2:09:53.700)
where it's not who was the most talented chess player
Lex Fridman (2:09:57.300)
or who had the most impact on the chess world,
Lex Fridman (2:09:59.240)
but who is the greatest at playing chess?
Lex Fridman (2:10:02.860)
Where if you were putting all of these players
Lex Fridman (2:10:05.420)
at their peak, who would be the best?
Lex Fridman (2:10:07.960)
And we're kind of living in a world
Botez Sisters (2:10:11.460)
where obviously humans are becoming more like cyborgs
Lex Fridman (2:10:14.140)
and their tools make them a lot more powerful.
Lex Fridman (2:10:18.480)
And the computer is the most powerful tool
Lex Fridman (2:10:21.460)
for chess that we've ever witnessed.
Lex Fridman (2:10:23.500)
And the top players now, someone like Magnus Carlsen
Lex Fridman (2:10:26.540)
or Gary Kasparov, if they were gonna go towards people
Botez Sisters (2:10:30.100)
like even Lasker or Bobby Fischer back in the day,
Lex Fridman (2:10:35.100)
Lasker, he was world champion for 27 years,
Botez Sisters (2:10:38.060)
he was the best in his field by far,
Lex Fridman (2:10:40.080)
but would he be able to stand up to someone
Lex Fridman (2:10:41.640)
like Magnus Carlsen who has had these tools?
Lex Fridman (2:10:44.220)
I don't think so.
Lex Fridman (2:10:45.580)
So most chess players have said Gary Kasparov
Lex Fridman (2:10:49.680)
and I think even Magnus has said that in the past,
Lex Fridman (2:10:52.460)
but I like to think of it as Magnus in his peak
Lex Fridman (2:10:55.320)
and Gary at his peak, and because Magnus was able
Botez Sisters (2:10:57.600)
to live more in a computer era,
Lex Fridman (2:10:59.400)
I feel like so far he's the greatest of all time.
Lex Fridman (2:11:02.560)
And some studies say things like
Lex Fridman (2:11:04.000)
how there's rating inflation,
Lex Fridman (2:11:05.760)
but I looked into some of them
Lex Fridman (2:11:06.960)
and they basically calculated people's play
Botez Sisters (2:11:11.400)
over the years and it seems
Lex Fridman (2:11:13.240)
that there hasn't been inflation,
Botez Sisters (2:11:14.340)
people are just getting better
Lex Fridman (2:11:15.360)
and I think it's because you have better tools at chess.
Lex Fridman (2:11:18.320)
And also one of the cases, what's your?
Lex Fridman (2:11:21.040)
I was gonna say, I actually, I disagree with that.
Botez Sisters (2:11:24.520)
Good, make it interesting.
Lex Fridman (2:11:26.460)
I think I would judge the greatest player of all time
Botez Sisters (2:11:31.600)
in relative to the time that they lived in
Lex Fridman (2:11:33.680)
and Magnus, although he is technically
Botez Sisters (2:11:36.680)
the strongest chess player in history,
Lex Fridman (2:11:38.440)
that is because he had computers to study chess with.
Lex Fridman (2:11:41.960)
And of course, if you compare him to like Gary Kasparov,
Lex Fridman (2:11:45.680)
he plays most like Stockfish,
Lex Fridman (2:11:47.840)
but Gary Kasparov at his time,
Lex Fridman (2:11:49.680)
he beat more players of his skill level than Magnus did.
Botez Sisters (2:11:53.720)
Magnus loses more often.
Lex Fridman (2:11:55.320)
He also of course held the belt for 20 years more.
Lex Fridman (2:11:57.680)
So I'd say actually, because Gary lacked the help
Lex Fridman (2:12:01.120)
of computers to study chess
Lex Fridman (2:12:03.500)
and overall performed better against players
Lex Fridman (2:12:06.580)
of his skill level, I think he would be number one.
Botez Sisters (2:12:09.280)
Nice.
Lex Fridman (2:12:10.340)
Yeah, but I mean, the case that people make for Magnus
Botez Sisters (2:12:13.280)
on many, I mean, what Alex said,
Lex Fridman (2:12:16.360)
but also Magnus plays a lot and he doesn't,
Botez Sisters (2:12:21.080)
he plays a lot blitz, bullet and like he puts,
Lex Fridman (2:12:25.840)
he gets drunk and like he's really putting himself out there
Lex Fridman (2:12:29.520)
and in all kinds of conditions and he's able to dominate
Lex Fridman (2:12:32.500)
and a lot of them, we get to see many of the like losses
Botez Sisters (2:12:35.720)
or blunders and all that kind of stuff
Lex Fridman (2:12:37.020)
because he just puts himself out there.
Lex Fridman (2:12:39.000)
And I think Kasparov was much more like.
Lex Fridman (2:12:42.500)
Never saw him play drunk, right?
Botez Sisters (2:12:44.160)
Yeah, and it's very focused on the world championship.
Lex Fridman (2:12:47.100)
It's very, very limited number of games
Lex Fridman (2:12:51.140)
and very focused on winning.
Lex Fridman (2:12:52.580)
And so there's some aspect to the versatility,
Botez Sisters (2:12:56.120)
the aggressive play, the fun, all of that,
Lex Fridman (2:12:59.380)
that I think you have to give credit to.
Botez Sisters (2:13:01.800)
Oh, 100%.
Lex Fridman (2:13:02.800)
In terms of just the scope,
Botez Sisters (2:13:06.480)
the scale of the variety of genius exhibited by Magnus.
Lex Fridman (2:13:10.760)
And he might not even be done yet.
Botez Sisters (2:13:12.300)
I don't know if he'll ever hit 2,900,
Lex Fridman (2:13:14.680)
but we can't judge yet
Botez Sisters (2:13:16.640)
because he's not at the peak of his career potentially.
Lex Fridman (2:13:18.960)
What do you think about him not playing world championship?
Lex Fridman (2:13:20.920)
Isn't that like, isn't that wild?
Lex Fridman (2:13:23.080)
The entirety of the history of chess in the 20th century
Botez Sisters (2:13:26.800)
going like meh.
Lex Fridman (2:13:27.720)
It's walking away from this one tournament
Botez Sisters (2:13:31.720)
that seems to be at the center of chess.
Lex Fridman (2:13:35.600)
What do you think about that decision?
Botez Sisters (2:13:37.400)
I mean, you can't help but be disappointed as a chess fan
Lex Fridman (2:13:41.440)
who wants to see the best player in the world
Botez Sisters (2:13:43.560)
defend his title.
Lex Fridman (2:13:44.980)
But I also understand it on a personal level
Lex Fridman (2:13:48.720)
and not feeling as satisfied
Lex Fridman (2:13:51.360)
when you're going to the world championship
Lex Fridman (2:13:53.820)
and having to defend against people
Lex Fridman (2:13:55.740)
who are less strong than you.
Lex Fridman (2:13:57.360)
And also imagine winning world championships
Lex Fridman (2:13:59.600)
and not feeling a joy out of that.
Lex Fridman (2:14:02.720)
So maybe by not doing that
Lex Fridman (2:14:04.720)
and focusing instead on a goal like 2,900,
Botez Sisters (2:14:07.200)
he'll be more likely to accomplish it
Lex Fridman (2:14:09.200)
because he's focusing on what actually motivates him
Botez Sisters (2:14:12.520)
to play chess.
Lex Fridman (2:14:13.580)
But I do think that it will hurt
Lex Fridman (2:14:17.760)
how we judge the next world champion.
Lex Fridman (2:14:21.400)
I think it won't change him being the best player
Botez Sisters (2:14:23.960)
in the world.
Lex Fridman (2:14:25.000)
And for someone to replace him,
Botez Sisters (2:14:27.360)
even let's say like Nepo versus Sting,
Lex Fridman (2:14:29.940)
even if one of them win and right on some stance,
Botez Sisters (2:14:32.960)
it does lower the merit
Lex Fridman (2:14:34.600)
because now who has the world chess championship title
Botez Sisters (2:14:37.740)
isn't actually the best player in the world.
Lex Fridman (2:14:39.640)
And that has happened before in the past,
Lex Fridman (2:14:41.720)
but still going to take the same effort to prove
Lex Fridman (2:14:45.480)
when they would pass him like 10, 20 years
Botez Sisters (2:14:48.120)
to become stronger than Magnus.
Lex Fridman (2:14:49.520)
So I don't think it changes the skill level
Botez Sisters (2:14:51.260)
that it takes to become the best chess player in the world.
Lex Fridman (2:14:54.220)
I think for chess fans, it's very disappointing,
Lex Fridman (2:14:56.760)
but I think in the overall like grand scheme
Lex Fridman (2:14:58.700)
of like the public view to people who don't really,
Lex Fridman (2:15:01.680)
so like, you know, what breaks the popular culture
Lex Fridman (2:15:04.680)
and you think of what names people know
Botez Sisters (2:15:08.280)
who don't play chess like Bobby Fischer did it.
Lex Fridman (2:15:10.620)
Most people know Casper over Magnus.
Botez Sisters (2:15:12.320)
It takes the same ability and talent and that doesn't change.
Lex Fridman (2:15:15.480)
I think it does change though
Botez Sisters (2:15:16.980)
if you're playing a player who's not as strong,
Lex Fridman (2:15:20.360)
but I see your point as well.
Lex Fridman (2:15:22.300)
And I know we differ on this.
Lex Fridman (2:15:23.840)
Like I said, I heard you ask Magnus,
Lex Fridman (2:15:25.240)
but what is your take on it?
Lex Fridman (2:15:30.000)
Well, listen, his answer is kind of brilliant,
Botez Sisters (2:15:33.920)
which he's not saying he's bored
Lex Fridman (2:15:37.440)
of the world championship.
Botez Sisters (2:15:39.040)
He's bored of a process
Lex Fridman (2:15:41.680)
that doesn't determine the best player.
Botez Sisters (2:15:44.320)
Like, and it's too exciting inducing to him
Lex Fridman (2:15:47.120)
to have a small number of games.
Botez Sisters (2:15:50.040)
He doesn't mind losing, which is really fascinating
Lex Fridman (2:15:54.800)
to a better player or somebody who is his level.
Botez Sisters (2:15:58.600)
He's more anxious about losing to a weaker player
Lex Fridman (2:16:05.000)
because of the small sample size.
Botez Sisters (2:16:07.160)
Now, if like poker players had that anxiety,
Lex Fridman (2:16:09.840)
they would never play at all, right?
Botez Sisters (2:16:11.600)
That's the World Series of Poker.
Lex Fridman (2:16:13.360)
You get to lose against weaker players all the time.
Botez Sisters (2:16:17.560)
That's the throw of the dice.
Lex Fridman (2:16:19.400)
But that's an interesting perspective
Botez Sisters (2:16:21.960)
that he would love to play 20, 30, 40 games
Lex Fridman (2:16:25.160)
in the world championship,
Lex Fridman (2:16:26.120)
and then he would enjoy it much more.
Lex Fridman (2:16:28.160)
And also play shorter games
Botez Sisters (2:16:29.960)
because they emphasize the like pure chess,
Lex Fridman (2:16:34.600)
actually being able to like much more variety
Botez Sisters (2:16:40.480)
in the middle game just to see a bunch of chaos
Lex Fridman (2:16:42.760)
and see how you're able to compute,
Botez Sisters (2:16:43.960)
calculate and intuition, all that kind of stuff.
Lex Fridman (2:16:46.480)
I mean, that's beautiful.
Botez Sisters (2:16:48.200)
I wish the chess world would step up and meet him
Lex Fridman (2:16:51.600)
in a place that makes sense,
Botez Sisters (2:16:55.280)
change the world championship.
Lex Fridman (2:16:56.560)
So FIDE changing it somehow, a loss for that.
Botez Sisters (2:17:00.480)
Or having other really respected tournaments
Lex Fridman (2:17:03.600)
that become like an annual thing that step up to that.
Botez Sisters (2:17:07.400)
Or more kind of online YouTube type of competitions,
Lex Fridman (2:17:12.120)
which I think they're trying to do more and more,
Botez Sisters (2:17:14.560)
like the Crypto Cup and all those kinds of things.
Lex Fridman (2:17:16.440)
And the Grand Tour does play in,
Botez Sisters (2:17:19.240)
which takes a lot of the top players
Lex Fridman (2:17:21.120)
and they do it online in shorter formats.
Lex Fridman (2:17:23.760)
But there's, so that's his perspective.
Lex Fridman (2:17:26.280)
My perhaps narrow perspective
Botez Sisters (2:17:30.320)
is I romanticize the Olympic games
Lex Fridman (2:17:32.360)
and those are every four years
Lex Fridman (2:17:33.680)
and the world championships because they're rare,
Lex Fridman (2:17:38.200)
because the sample size is so small.
Botez Sisters (2:17:40.440)
That's where the magic happens.
Lex Fridman (2:17:42.200)
Everything's on the line for people
Botez Sisters (2:17:45.760)
that spend their whole life, 20 years of dedication,
Lex Fridman (2:17:50.520)
everything you have, every minute of the day
Botez Sisters (2:17:52.800)
spent for that moment.
Lex Fridman (2:17:54.920)
You think about like gymnastics at the Olympic games.
Botez Sisters (2:17:57.560)
There's certain sports where a single mistake
Lex Fridman (2:17:59.720)
and you're fucked.
Lex Fridman (2:18:01.280)
And that stress, that pressure, it can break people
Lex Fridman (2:18:08.880)
or it can create magic.
Botez Sisters (2:18:11.160)
Like a person that's the underdog
Lex Fridman (2:18:13.520)
has the best night of their life
Botez Sisters (2:18:15.520)
or the person that's been dominating for years
Lex Fridman (2:18:18.200)
all of a sudden slips up.
Botez Sisters (2:18:19.840)
That drama from a human perspective is beautiful.
Lex Fridman (2:18:22.080)
So I still like the world championships,
Lex Fridman (2:18:24.560)
but then again, looking at all the draws,
Lex Fridman (2:18:28.320)
looking at like, well, the magic isn't quite there.
Lex Fridman (2:18:33.760)
So to me, when I see faster games of chess,
Lex Fridman (2:18:36.440)
that's much more beautiful.
Lex Fridman (2:18:39.360)
But then I don't understand the game of chess
Lex Fridman (2:18:41.520)
deeply enough to know.
Lex Fridman (2:18:43.200)
Like, does it have to be so many draws?
Lex Fridman (2:18:48.880)
Like, is there a way to create a more dynamic chess?
Lex Fridman (2:18:51.440)
And he talked about random chess
Lex Fridman (2:18:53.800)
with a random starting position.
Botez Sisters (2:18:55.400)
That's really interesting.
Lex Fridman (2:18:56.240)
But then of course, that's like,
Botez Sisters (2:18:58.440)
then you do have to play hundreds of games
Lex Fridman (2:19:00.520)
and that kind of stuff.
Lex Fridman (2:19:03.280)
But I think it's great that the world number one
Lex Fridman (2:19:08.240)
is struggling with these questions
Botez Sisters (2:19:12.440)
because he's in the position,
Lex Fridman (2:19:13.840)
he has the leverage to actually change the game of chess
Botez Sisters (2:19:16.800)
as it's publicly seen, as it's publicly played.
Lex Fridman (2:19:19.480)
So it's interesting.
Botez Sisters (2:19:21.960)
He's still young enough to dominate
Lex Fridman (2:19:24.160)
for quite a long time if he wants.
Lex Fridman (2:19:26.280)
So I don't know.
Lex Fridman (2:19:27.280)
I, you know, with Kasparov, the fight between nations,
Botez Sisters (2:19:32.120)
I hope they have the world championship
Lex Fridman (2:19:34.760)
and I hope he's still a part of it somehow.
Botez Sisters (2:19:38.560)
I hope he changes his mind.
Lex Fridman (2:19:40.360)
And comes back.
Botez Sisters (2:19:41.200)
Comes back.
Lex Fridman (2:19:42.040)
Kind of dramatic thing.
Botez Sisters (2:19:43.080)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (2:19:44.680)
But it is, his heart is not in it.
Lex Fridman (2:19:47.880)
And then,
Lex Fridman (2:19:51.680)
and then that's not beautiful to see, right?
Botez Sisters (2:19:57.720)
Yeah, it is beautiful that the thing he wants
Lex Fridman (2:20:02.000)
is a great game of chess against an opponent
Botez Sisters (2:20:04.440)
that's his level or better.
Lex Fridman (2:20:07.200)
And that's great that he's coming from that place.
Lex Fridman (2:20:10.120)
But I hope he comes back tomorrow.
Lex Fridman (2:20:11.920)
Because the world championship is a special thing
Botez Sisters (2:20:15.400)
in any sport.
Lex Fridman (2:20:16.960)
So you do wish that the person
Botez Sisters (2:20:18.560)
who wins the world championship
Lex Fridman (2:20:20.040)
is the best player in the world?
Botez Sisters (2:20:23.640)
No.
Lex Fridman (2:20:25.800)
I hope that the best people in the world,
Botez Sisters (2:20:28.640)
the two best people in the world
Lex Fridman (2:20:30.120)
are the ones that sit down.
Lex Fridman (2:20:33.160)
But the person that wins is the person that,
Lex Fridman (2:20:35.840)
that's the magic of it.
Botez Sisters (2:20:37.200)
Nobody knows who's going to win.
Lex Fridman (2:20:39.160)
I think Magnus is so, he really wants
Botez Sisters (2:20:42.640)
the best person to win.
Lex Fridman (2:20:44.120)
Like the, that's why he wants the large sample size.
Lex Fridman (2:20:48.480)
But to me there's some magic to it.
Lex Fridman (2:20:50.440)
The stress of it, the drama of it.
Botez Sisters (2:20:53.360)
That's all part of the game.
Lex Fridman (2:20:55.280)
Like it's not just about the purity of the game,
Botez Sisters (2:20:58.120)
like the calculation.
Lex Fridman (2:21:00.520)
The pure chess of it.
Botez Sisters (2:21:01.760)
It's also like the drama.
Lex Fridman (2:21:03.840)
Like the, yeah, the pressure, the drama, all of it.
Botez Sisters (2:21:07.760)
The shit talking, if it gets to you, the mind games.
Lex Fridman (2:21:10.760)
This is the part that's fun to watch,
Lex Fridman (2:21:12.560)
but less fun to be playing.
Lex Fridman (2:21:14.480)
But that's why it's great.
Botez Sisters (2:21:15.720)
Who can melt, who can rise under that pressure
Lex Fridman (2:21:18.640)
and who melts under that pressure.
Botez Sisters (2:21:22.520)
There's a lot of people that look up to you,
Lex Fridman (2:21:24.160)
like they're inspired by you
Botez Sisters (2:21:26.200)
because you've taken a kind of nonlinear path through life.
Lex Fridman (2:21:28.720)
Is there any advice you have for people
Lex Fridman (2:21:31.000)
like in high school today?
Lex Fridman (2:21:33.800)
They're trying to figure out what they want to do.
Lex Fridman (2:21:35.760)
Do they want to go to Stanford?
Lex Fridman (2:21:37.040)
Do they want to pursue a career in, I don't know,
Botez Sisters (2:21:41.360)
in industry or go kind of the path you guys have taken,
Lex Fridman (2:21:46.000)
which is have the ability to do all of that
Lex Fridman (2:21:48.480)
and still choose to make the thing
Lex Fridman (2:21:50.680)
that you're passionate about your life.
Botez Sisters (2:21:53.600)
I always liked the calculated risks approach
Lex Fridman (2:21:56.760)
where when you're younger, it's okay to take more risks
Botez Sisters (2:22:00.360)
because you have a lot more time,
Lex Fridman (2:22:02.360)
but there has to be a reason
Lex Fridman (2:22:04.040)
why you're doing that particular risk.
Lex Fridman (2:22:06.120)
Is it something that you've spent a lot of time already
Botez Sisters (2:22:08.400)
really passionate and working on
Lex Fridman (2:22:09.880)
or is it just something that's trendy
Lex Fridman (2:22:11.320)
and you want to do it because you don't have a better option?
Lex Fridman (2:22:13.880)
And that's actually similar to what Andrea did
Botez Sisters (2:22:16.360)
when she decided to go into streaming instead of school.
Lex Fridman (2:22:19.520)
Yeah, the reason I got into streaming
Botez Sisters (2:22:21.920)
because I was initially going to go to college,
Lex Fridman (2:22:24.240)
but the pandemics,
Botez Sisters (2:22:25.440)
it was right at the beginning of the pandemic
Lex Fridman (2:22:27.280)
and all my classes were online.
Lex Fridman (2:22:29.320)
And I never thought, ever since I was 12,
Lex Fridman (2:22:31.960)
like my dream was school and I saw myself nowhere else
Botez Sisters (2:22:36.200)
than going to university.
Lex Fridman (2:22:37.960)
And I thought of it and kind of weighed out the risks.
Botez Sisters (2:22:40.440)
I'm like, well, if I take a gap year
Lex Fridman (2:22:41.760)
and I try streaming with my sister, what do I have to lose?
Botez Sisters (2:22:45.160)
I gained some experience working with someone
Lex Fridman (2:22:47.400)
who has a lot more experience than I do.
Lex Fridman (2:22:49.880)
And then I can go back to school after.
Lex Fridman (2:22:52.360)
And if I go to school right now,
Botez Sisters (2:22:54.000)
I do online classes for a year
Lex Fridman (2:22:55.480)
and that's something that I could do at any time.
Lex Fridman (2:22:57.400)
So that's why it made a lot of sense for me to go into this.
Lex Fridman (2:23:00.920)
But of course, this is also a very unique opportunity.
Lex Fridman (2:23:04.240)
So I don't know how applicable,
Lex Fridman (2:23:05.560)
but I do think overall the calculated risk
Botez Sisters (2:23:07.680)
is a really good lesson.
Lex Fridman (2:23:08.560)
So life is like chess.
Botez Sisters (2:23:10.360)
Exactly.
Lex Fridman (2:23:11.760)
Maybe sometime.
Botez Sisters (2:23:12.840)
Exactly.
Lex Fridman (2:23:13.840)
You also, have you considered a career
Lex Fridman (2:23:15.920)
in professional fighting?
Lex Fridman (2:23:16.840)
I saw you did a self defense class,
Botez Sisters (2:23:18.800)
you did a little Jiu Jitsu.
Lex Fridman (2:23:20.280)
Did you see the 10 year old kid who...
Lex Fridman (2:23:22.840)
Throwing her?
Lex Fridman (2:23:24.240)
Yes, and apparently I could have broken a leg.
Lex Fridman (2:23:26.480)
But it's actually funny, like chess boxing is a thing
Lex Fridman (2:23:29.360)
and I have been doing a lot of boxing.
Botez Sisters (2:23:32.280)
Physical activity is like, honestly,
Lex Fridman (2:23:34.160)
one of my favorite things to do.
Lex Fridman (2:23:35.960)
And I have been testing it out on content
Lex Fridman (2:23:38.240)
and we have a creator friend
Botez Sisters (2:23:40.000)
who's hosting a chess boxing tournament,
Lex Fridman (2:23:42.040)
but there's no woman who could match me, unfortunately,
Botez Sisters (2:23:45.760)
because all the opponents are male
Lex Fridman (2:23:47.680)
and I can't fight a guy.
Lex Fridman (2:23:50.120)
How does chess boxing work?
Lex Fridman (2:23:51.680)
So you do a round of chess and a round of boxing.
Lex Fridman (2:23:54.120)
And we actually did a training camp for it before.
Lex Fridman (2:23:56.520)
And of course, after you go into the ring.
Lex Fridman (2:23:59.400)
Is this real?
Lex Fridman (2:24:00.240)
Is this serious?
Botez Sisters (2:24:01.080)
Yes, it's amazing.
Lex Fridman (2:24:01.920)
We went to a London chess boxing club.
Lex Fridman (2:24:03.320)
And after you get...
Lex Fridman (2:24:04.160)
No, it seemed like videos,
Botez Sisters (2:24:05.120)
I thought it was something you'd just do in Russia
Lex Fridman (2:24:06.680)
or something.
Botez Sisters (2:24:07.520)
No, it's a real sport.
Lex Fridman (2:24:08.360)
It's a real sport.
Botez Sisters (2:24:09.200)
Yeah, no, it's very cool.
Lex Fridman (2:24:10.440)
But after you get really tired,
Botez Sisters (2:24:12.320)
you're more likely to make a mistake
Lex Fridman (2:24:14.000)
and they call them Jaffers or something.
Botez Sisters (2:24:16.040)
Yeah, there's probably good strategies,
Lex Fridman (2:24:17.360)
like what do you want to...
Botez Sisters (2:24:19.360)
Because some of it is a cardio thing.
Lex Fridman (2:24:21.320)
Do you want to work on your chess or your boxing?
Botez Sisters (2:24:23.760)
They do both, it's very fun.
Lex Fridman (2:24:25.560)
But yeah, from a content perspective,
Botez Sisters (2:24:27.120)
I'm sure there's a lot of people that would love to see.
Lex Fridman (2:24:31.960)
I don't want to see Andrea getting hit.
Botez Sisters (2:24:33.800)
That would be...
Lex Fridman (2:24:34.640)
I would love to fight.
Botez Sisters (2:24:35.480)
Unless she doesn't get hit.
Lex Fridman (2:24:37.760)
Our roommate fought in a fight
Lex Fridman (2:24:39.640)
and she did end up winning,
Lex Fridman (2:24:40.960)
but seeing her get hit,
Botez Sisters (2:24:42.320)
I thought I was going to throw up off screen.
Lex Fridman (2:24:43.840)
I just think it was so cool.
Botez Sisters (2:24:44.920)
She had no experience in boxing whatsoever.
Lex Fridman (2:24:47.120)
And then coming from someone in the content world,
Botez Sisters (2:24:49.520)
where you start waking up six days a week at 6 a.m.
Lex Fridman (2:24:52.120)
and she's training every day,
Botez Sisters (2:24:54.120)
like a real professional athlete,
Lex Fridman (2:24:55.840)
I think like it's such a unique experience
Lex Fridman (2:24:58.240)
and also like a really test
Lex Fridman (2:25:00.000)
of how much you can really commit to this and progress.
Lex Fridman (2:25:02.880)
And I think that's really rewarding.
Lex Fridman (2:25:05.120)
Did you ever end up doing the marathon with David Goggins
Lex Fridman (2:25:08.320)
that you were training for?
Lex Fridman (2:25:09.160)
No, I got injured, but we're going to do it soon.
Botez Sisters (2:25:11.840)
That's on my bucket list,
Lex Fridman (2:25:14.080)
just to see what your limits are.
Lex Fridman (2:25:15.560)
You're ready to do it?
Lex Fridman (2:25:16.400)
What did you do leading up to this?
Botez Sisters (2:25:19.000)
Nothing.
Lex Fridman (2:25:19.840)
You're just going to go into it.
Botez Sisters (2:25:20.680)
It's mental anyway.
Lex Fridman (2:25:22.240)
Oh, you don't...
Botez Sisters (2:25:23.080)
I run a lot to make sure like there's no...
Lex Fridman (2:25:27.520)
You have to have a base level of fitness
Botez Sisters (2:25:29.920)
to make sure your body doesn't completely freak out.
Lex Fridman (2:25:32.240)
But other than that, 50 plus miles is just about
Botez Sisters (2:25:36.200)
like taking it one step at a time
Lex Fridman (2:25:39.440)
and just being able to deal with the suffering
Lex Fridman (2:25:42.160)
and all the voices, the little voices
Lex Fridman (2:25:43.720)
that tell you all the excuses,
Lex Fridman (2:25:44.880)
like why are you doing this?
Lex Fridman (2:25:47.320)
This blister is bleeding, whatever.
Botez Sisters (2:25:49.680)
Whatever the thing that makes you want to stop,
Lex Fridman (2:25:53.360)
just shut it off.
Botez Sisters (2:25:54.200)
Sometimes it feels like you like pain.
Lex Fridman (2:25:56.880)
No, well, no, no.
Lex Fridman (2:26:00.120)
But the pain does seem to show the way to progress.
Lex Fridman (2:26:05.440)
So what...
Botez Sisters (2:26:06.280)
In your turn of life.
Lex Fridman (2:26:08.040)
In my world.
Botez Sisters (2:26:08.880)
Something that's really hard and I don't want to do,
Lex Fridman (2:26:11.600)
that's usually the right thing to do.
Lex Fridman (2:26:14.080)
And I'm not saying that's like a universal truth.
Lex Fridman (2:26:17.960)
It's just, if there's a few doors to go into,
Botez Sisters (2:26:22.040)
the one that I want to go into least,
Lex Fridman (2:26:24.320)
that's the one that usually is the right one.
Botez Sisters (2:26:27.320)
Afterwards, I will learn something from it.
Lex Fridman (2:26:29.880)
The David Goggins thing, I don't know.
Botez Sisters (2:26:31.880)
Listen, we're talking offline,
Lex Fridman (2:26:34.640)
the conversation with Liv,
Botez Sisters (2:26:36.000)
she has a very numeric, calculated risk.
Lex Fridman (2:26:38.680)
Everything is planned.
Botez Sisters (2:26:39.720)
I go with the heart.
Lex Fridman (2:26:41.240)
I just go whatever the hell.
Botez Sisters (2:26:42.880)
I think two years ago, I woke up,
Lex Fridman (2:26:44.840)
it was summer, I decided to tweet,
Botez Sisters (2:26:50.400)
I will do as many pushups.
Lex Fridman (2:26:53.320)
I don't know why I did this,
Lex Fridman (2:26:55.600)
but I will do as many pushups and pull ups
Lex Fridman (2:26:58.240)
as this week gets likes, something like that.
Botez Sisters (2:27:00.400)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (2:27:01.240)
Right?
Lex Fridman (2:27:02.080)
And then that it got like 30,000.
Lex Fridman (2:27:07.160)
Once you put it out on the internet,
Botez Sisters (2:27:08.360)
you're held accountable.
Lex Fridman (2:27:09.200)
Well, for myself, I mean, in some sense.
Lex Fridman (2:27:11.560)
And then that's when, I already was connected to David
Lex Fridman (2:27:14.920)
at that point, but that's when he called me.
Lex Fridman (2:27:18.040)
And then didn't have to do it.
Lex Fridman (2:27:19.800)
And then I did it and it was one of the hardest things
Botez Sisters (2:27:21.680)
I've ever done.
Lex Fridman (2:27:22.520)
How long did you take?
Botez Sisters (2:27:23.360)
I did it for seven days and I got injured.
Lex Fridman (2:27:25.960)
So I did about a few thousand.
Lex Fridman (2:27:27.680)
Wait, so this is what got you to be injured?
Lex Fridman (2:27:29.840)
This challenge?
Botez Sisters (2:27:30.920)
No, it's different.
Lex Fridman (2:27:31.760)
I keep getting injured doing stuff.
Lex Fridman (2:27:34.320)
But this particular thing, I started doing the,
Lex Fridman (2:27:36.560)
you don't realize that you have to really ramp up.
Lex Fridman (2:27:39.080)
So I got like overuse injury tendonitis on the shoulder
Lex Fridman (2:27:44.480)
all the way down to the elbow.
Lex Fridman (2:27:46.000)
So I took like eight or nine days off
Lex Fridman (2:27:49.880)
and then started again.
Lex Fridman (2:27:51.080)
And then it took about 31 days to do.
Lex Fridman (2:27:55.720)
30,000.
Botez Sisters (2:27:57.280)
The number was like 26, 27,000.
Lex Fridman (2:28:01.560)
Yeah.
Botez Sisters (2:28:02.400)
Wow.
Lex Fridman (2:28:03.240)
And it took like three, four hours a day.
Botez Sisters (2:28:06.200)
Oh God.
Lex Fridman (2:28:07.160)
Yeah.
Botez Sisters (2:28:08.000)
Sounds like torture.
Lex Fridman (2:28:08.880)
And not, you know, constantly asking myself,
Lex Fridman (2:28:11.440)
what am I doing with my life?
Lex Fridman (2:28:13.120)
This is why you're single, was the voice in my head.
Lex Fridman (2:28:16.600)
This is what are you doing?
Lex Fridman (2:28:18.160)
It's like face down on the carpet.
Botez Sisters (2:28:21.600)
Like exhausted.
Lex Fridman (2:28:23.040)
Like what, what?
Lex Fridman (2:28:24.640)
Because of a tweet?
Lex Fridman (2:28:25.680)
What is this?
Lex Fridman (2:28:26.840)
Did you record it or you just?
Lex Fridman (2:28:28.440)
I did.
Botez Sisters (2:28:29.280)
I did record it for myself.
Lex Fridman (2:28:30.320)
Okay.
Botez Sisters (2:28:31.160)
Now imagine doing this every day
Lex Fridman (2:28:32.880)
and that's what it's like to be a Twitch streamer.
Botez Sisters (2:28:34.880)
Just kidding.
Lex Fridman (2:28:35.720)
Right.
Botez Sisters (2:28:36.540)
I'm doing stupid things.
Lex Fridman (2:28:37.380)
That was really important to me actually
Botez Sisters (2:28:39.240)
to not make it into content.
Lex Fridman (2:28:42.120)
You know, I recorded everything.
Lex Fridman (2:28:43.320)
So maybe one day I could publish it.
Lex Fridman (2:28:44.960)
I recorded it mostly because it's really hard to count.
Botez Sisters (2:28:48.360)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:28:49.200)
When you get exhausted.
Botez Sisters (2:28:50.440)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:28:51.280)
Like I just, so you actually enter the Zen place
Botez Sisters (2:28:54.640)
where with pushups, where it's just like,
Lex Fridman (2:28:58.120)
it's almost like breathing.
Botez Sisters (2:28:59.720)
You get into a rhythm and you can do quite a lot.
Lex Fridman (2:29:02.600)
But I wanted to make sure like,
Botez Sisters (2:29:04.120)
if I actually get this done, I want there to be evidence
Lex Fridman (2:29:07.920)
that I got it done for myself so I can count it.
Botez Sisters (2:29:10.520)
I had this idea that I would use machine learning
Lex Fridman (2:29:12.240)
to like automatically process the video to count it.
Lex Fridman (2:29:15.120)
But then like, after like 10 days,
Lex Fridman (2:29:17.560)
I didn't even give a shit what anyone thought.
Botez Sisters (2:29:19.060)
It was about me versus me.
Lex Fridman (2:29:21.240)
I didn't even care.
Botez Sisters (2:29:22.080)
Lex versus Lex.
Lex Fridman (2:29:23.360)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:29:24.200)
And then, yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:29:26.000)
And David was extremely supportive.
Lex Fridman (2:29:27.560)
But that's when I realized like,
Lex Fridman (2:29:28.560)
I really want to go head to head with him.
Lex Fridman (2:29:31.200)
So yeah, those kinds of people are beautiful.
Lex Fridman (2:29:34.720)
They really challenge you to your limits.
Botez Sisters (2:29:36.020)
Whatever that is.
Lex Fridman (2:29:37.120)
It's like, the thing is physical exercise
Botez Sisters (2:29:40.080)
is such an easy way to push yourself to your limit.
Lex Fridman (2:29:42.800)
There's in all other walks of life,
Botez Sisters (2:29:44.600)
it's trickier to configure.
Lex Fridman (2:29:46.400)
Like how do you push yourself to your limits in chess?
Botez Sisters (2:29:48.760)
It's hard to figure out.
Lex Fridman (2:29:50.440)
But like in physical.
Lex Fridman (2:29:51.280)
Do you think it's ever dangerous?
Lex Fridman (2:29:53.180)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:29:54.020)
And that's why it's beautiful.
Lex Fridman (2:29:56.120)
The danger.
Botez Sisters (2:29:56.940)
She likes the pain.
Lex Fridman (2:29:57.780)
I don't like that your eyes lit up as I said.
Botez Sisters (2:30:00.040)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:30:01.240)
Like if you don't know how you're gonna get out of it,
Botez Sisters (2:30:04.800)
you're gonna have to figure out something profound
Lex Fridman (2:30:08.240)
about yourself.
Lex Fridman (2:30:10.480)
And I mean, one of the reasons I went to Ukraine
Lex Fridman (2:30:13.060)
is I really wanted to experience the hardship
Lex Fridman (2:30:19.280)
and the intensity of war that people are experiencing
Lex Fridman (2:30:23.960)
so I can understand myself better,
Botez Sisters (2:30:25.960)
I can understand them better.
Lex Fridman (2:30:27.440)
So the words that are leaving my mouth are grounded
Botez Sisters (2:30:30.720)
in a better understanding of who they are.
Lex Fridman (2:30:32.400)
And I mean, the running a lot with David Gong
Botez Sisters (2:30:36.080)
is it's a much simpler thing to do.
Lex Fridman (2:30:40.200)
Simpler way to understand something about yourself,
Botez Sisters (2:30:42.400)
about like the limits of human nature.
Lex Fridman (2:30:44.440)
I think most growth happens with voluntary suffering
Botez Sisters (2:30:47.760)
or struggle, involuntary stuff.
Lex Fridman (2:30:50.240)
That's where the dark trauma is created.
Lex Fridman (2:30:52.680)
But I don't know, maybe it is.
Lex Fridman (2:30:55.840)
Maybe I'm just attracted to torture.
Lex Fridman (2:30:57.520)
And what is it that your mind does
Lex Fridman (2:30:59.520)
when you're going through this involuntary suffering?
Botez Sisters (2:31:03.240)
I think,
Lex Fridman (2:31:14.760)
there's like stages.
Botez Sisters (2:31:15.880)
First, all the excuses start coming.
Lex Fridman (2:31:17.760)
Like why are you doing this?
Lex Fridman (2:31:20.360)
And then you start to wonder like what kind of person
Lex Fridman (2:31:25.320)
do you want to be?
Lex Fridman (2:31:26.920)
So all the dreams you had,
Lex Fridman (2:31:28.400)
all the promises you made to yourself and to others,
Botez Sisters (2:31:30.440)
all the ambitions you had that haven't come yet realized,
Lex Fridman (2:31:34.520)
somehow that all becomes really intensely like visceral
Botez Sisters (2:31:39.080)
as the struggle is happening.
Lex Fridman (2:31:41.520)
And then when all of that is allowed to pass from your mind,
Botez Sisters (2:31:47.680)
you have this clear appreciation
Lex Fridman (2:31:49.280)
of what you really love in life,
Botez Sisters (2:31:50.800)
which is just like just living.
Lex Fridman (2:31:53.040)
Just the moment, the step at a time.
Botez Sisters (2:31:57.320)
I think what meditation does and it's most effective,
Lex Fridman (2:32:00.040)
it's just that pain is a catalyst
Botez Sisters (2:32:02.480)
for the meditative process, I think.
Lex Fridman (2:32:05.040)
For me, for me.
Botez Sisters (2:32:07.200)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (2:32:09.040)
Magnus said there's no meaning to life.
Lex Fridman (2:32:10.680)
Do you guys agree or no?
Lex Fridman (2:32:14.360)
Why are we here?
Botez Sisters (2:32:17.560)
I do not know why we're here,
Lex Fridman (2:32:20.520)
but I do know that having some kind of meaning
Botez Sisters (2:32:26.600)
that I give my own life
Lex Fridman (2:32:28.520)
makes it a lot more motivating every day.
Lex Fridman (2:32:32.000)
So I just try to focus on finding meaning within my own life
Lex Fridman (2:32:34.960)
even if I know it's just self imposed.
Lex Fridman (2:32:38.680)
And then chess is a part of that?
Lex Fridman (2:32:41.960)
Chess is a part of it.
Botez Sisters (2:32:44.880)
Maybe it was more so when I was younger
Lex Fridman (2:32:47.800)
because it was easier to just feel like I wanna improve
Botez Sisters (2:32:50.960)
as a person and to use chess
Lex Fridman (2:32:54.200)
to kind of measure some kind of self improvement.
Lex Fridman (2:32:57.240)
And now it's more different than that.
Lex Fridman (2:33:00.480)
And I think I need to once again find
Lex Fridman (2:33:02.840)
what that northern star is.
Lex Fridman (2:33:06.960)
Basically, I need to have a why for why I'm doing things.
Lex Fridman (2:33:09.760)
And then I feel like I could do very hard things.
Lex Fridman (2:33:12.240)
What role does love play in the human condition?
Botez Sisters (2:33:18.760)
Alex and Andrea.
Lex Fridman (2:33:20.280)
I'll let Andrea start this one since I took the last.
Botez Sisters (2:33:23.120)
Sure.
Lex Fridman (2:33:23.960)
And yeah, just to add my answer for the last one.
Botez Sisters (2:33:26.800)
I also kind of think, well, life is meaningless,
Lex Fridman (2:33:30.720)
but I like the stoic idea where that's something
Botez Sisters (2:33:32.800)
that you live to revolt against.
Lex Fridman (2:33:35.240)
But for the second question.
Botez Sisters (2:33:37.440)
The revolt against the fundamental meaninglessness of life.
Lex Fridman (2:33:41.640)
I like it. Exactly.
Botez Sisters (2:33:43.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:33:44.240)
It was what does love play?
Lex Fridman (2:33:45.760)
What role does love play?
Lex Fridman (2:33:47.080)
Yeah, in the human condition.
Botez Sisters (2:33:49.840)
The way I see it,
Lex Fridman (2:33:54.000)
love is a reason you want to share experiences
Botez Sisters (2:33:57.360)
with other people.
Lex Fridman (2:33:59.160)
That's how I see it.
Botez Sisters (2:34:00.000)
Like the people you really love,
Lex Fridman (2:34:01.280)
you wanna share the things you're going through with them.
Botez Sisters (2:34:05.440)
The good and the bad.
Lex Fridman (2:34:06.480)
Yeah, exactly.
Botez Sisters (2:34:08.000)
That's my simple take on love.
Lex Fridman (2:34:12.040)
My take on it is that part of what it is to be human
Botez Sisters (2:34:16.760)
is to be somebody who feels things emotionally
Lex Fridman (2:34:20.560)
and love is one of the most intense feelings you can have.
Botez Sisters (2:34:26.360)
Obviously there's the opposite of that
Lex Fridman (2:34:28.440)
and there's things like hate,
Lex Fridman (2:34:30.000)
but I think the love you feel for people like your parents
Lex Fridman (2:34:33.160)
and your friends and romantic love in that moment
Botez Sisters (2:34:35.720)
is much more intense than in other situations.
Lex Fridman (2:34:41.360)
And I think it's also just very unique to humans
Lex Fridman (2:34:44.480)
and that's what I appreciate about it.
Lex Fridman (2:34:46.920)
Maybe that's the meaning of life.
Botez Sisters (2:34:49.400)
Maybe that's what the Stoics are searching for.
Lex Fridman (2:34:52.240)
Andrea, Alex, thank you so much for this
Lex Fridman (2:34:54.600)
and thank you for an amazing conversation.
Lex Fridman (2:34:56.680)
Thank you for creating, keep creating
Lex Fridman (2:34:58.680)
and thank you for putting knowledge
Lex Fridman (2:35:01.120)
and love out there in the world.
Botez Sisters (2:35:02.920)
Thank you for having us, Lex.
Lex Fridman (2:35:04.520)
It was a pleasure.
Lex Fridman (2:35:05.760)
And we're both big fans of your podcast,
Lex Fridman (2:35:08.440)
so this was really exciting for us.
Botez Sisters (2:35:11.160)
Thanks for listening to this conversation
Lex Fridman (2:35:12.640)
with Alexandra and Andrea Botez.
Botez Sisters (2:35:15.000)
To support this podcast,
Lex Fridman (2:35:16.200)
please check out our sponsors in the description.
Lex Fridman (2:35:18.840)
And now let me leave you with some words from Bobby Fisher.
Lex Fridman (2:35:22.680)
Chess is life.
Botez Sisters (2:35:24.640)
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
Lex Fridman (30:01.920)
What's the experience of that?
Botez Sisters (30:06.760)
Playing somebody like Magnus.
Lex Fridman (30:08.800)
So it depends on how much higher rated than you they are.
Botez Sisters (30:11.880)
If it's someone who's like between me and Andrea,
Lex Fridman (30:13.760)
let's say it's a 200 point difference,
Botez Sisters (30:16.200)
you know they should win,
Lex Fridman (30:17.240)
but at least you still feel like you have a chance.
Botez Sisters (30:19.680)
I was playing in a title Tuesday,
Lex Fridman (30:21.840)
which is this tournament chess.com has every Tuesday.
Lex Fridman (30:24.480)
And I got really lucky, beat a GM,
Lex Fridman (30:26.760)
drew an international master,
Lex Fridman (30:27.880)
and then I got paired against Hikaru Nakamura.
Lex Fridman (30:30.480)
And my brain just went blank,
Botez Sisters (30:32.440)
because I just know that I'm so unlikely to win
Lex Fridman (30:35.200)
that I couldn't even play the game properly
Botez Sisters (30:37.520)
when it's that much of a difference
Lex Fridman (30:39.000)
where they should be winning like 99% of the time.
Lex Fridman (30:42.480)
But that's like psychological.
Lex Fridman (30:43.800)
So you're saying that's the biggest experience
Botez Sisters (30:45.520)
is like actually knowing the numbers
Lex Fridman (30:48.240)
and statistically thinking there's no way I can win.
Lex Fridman (30:50.600)
But I meant like, is there a suffocating feeling
Lex Fridman (30:52.680)
like positionally you feel like
Lex Fridman (30:54.840)
you're constantly under attack?
Lex Fridman (30:57.800)
You just feel like you're slowly getting outsmarted.
Lex Fridman (31:00.640)
And the worst is when you don't even know
Lex Fridman (31:02.640)
what you're doing wrong.
Botez Sisters (31:03.800)
You come out of that and you're like,
Lex Fridman (31:05.560)
I thought I was doing great and I got slowly squeezed.
Botez Sisters (31:08.480)
I didn't understand what was going on.
Lex Fridman (31:10.400)
And you're just kind of baffled.
Botez Sisters (31:11.760)
It's kind of like watching AlphaZero beat up Stockfish.
Lex Fridman (31:15.280)
And you don't really understand why it's making certain moves
Botez Sisters (31:18.320)
or how it thought of the plan.
Lex Fridman (31:19.760)
You just see it slowly getting the position better.
Lex Fridman (31:22.600)
And that's what it feels like.
Lex Fridman (31:24.280)
I would add it's kind of different for me
Botez Sisters (31:26.960)
if they're someone who's significantly higher rated.
Lex Fridman (31:29.240)
So let's say more than like 300 points
Botez Sisters (31:31.000)
or you're playing Magnus.
Lex Fridman (31:32.720)
What I notice is I just feel lost straight
Botez Sisters (31:35.520)
as soon as I don't know my preparation
Lex Fridman (31:37.560)
because they know so many opening lines
Botez Sisters (31:39.360)
that they're gonna know the best line to beat you
Lex Fridman (31:41.280)
that you haven't studied.
Lex Fridman (31:42.760)
So then on move 10, you're like,
Lex Fridman (31:44.120)
he already has a maybe plus 0.5 advantage
Botez Sisters (31:47.360)
which is really small.
Lex Fridman (31:48.600)
But for someone with such a significant skill level
Botez Sisters (31:51.720)
you know you already lost at that point.
Lex Fridman (31:53.240)
And it's like a third of the game.
Lex Fridman (31:57.200)
What are the strengths and weaknesses of Andrea?
Lex Fridman (32:00.760)
Andrea is very good at opening preparation.
Botez Sisters (32:04.480)
As she said.
Lex Fridman (32:05.320)
As she said, she likes bringing that up.
Botez Sisters (32:07.720)
I mean, she's very meticulous about it
Lex Fridman (32:09.320)
where she'll really go in and learn her lines.
Lex Fridman (32:13.640)
And having that initial starting confidence
Lex Fridman (32:16.000)
isn't just helpful for the opening
Lex Fridman (32:17.600)
but it helps develop your plans for the middle game.
Lex Fridman (32:20.280)
So I think she's very good at that.
Botez Sisters (32:23.280)
I think she's actually pretty good
Lex Fridman (32:25.320)
at tactical combinations.
Lex Fridman (32:28.720)
What is tactics?
Lex Fridman (32:29.760)
Tactics is like solving puzzles
Botez Sisters (32:33.560)
or basically finding lines that are forced
Lex Fridman (32:36.520)
where if you find them, you're going to win.
Lex Fridman (32:39.120)
So that's like puzzles within a position.
Lex Fridman (32:41.720)
Yeah, exactly.
Botez Sisters (32:42.640)
Whereas strategic chess is making slow moves
Lex Fridman (32:45.800)
and over the process of like 20 moves
Botez Sisters (32:48.240)
you get a slightly better position based on
Lex Fridman (32:50.960)
an understanding of the overall strategy.
Lex Fridman (32:54.000)
So in my extensive research review on Wikipedia,
Lex Fridman (32:58.400)
it says your most played opening
Botez Sisters (33:00.560)
is the King's Indian defense.
Lex Fridman (33:02.880)
In which, quote, black allows white
Botez Sisters (33:04.880)
to advance their pawns to the center of the board
Lex Fridman (33:07.560)
in the first two moves.
Lex Fridman (33:09.320)
Is there any truth to this?
Lex Fridman (33:11.200)
So the King's Indian.
Lex Fridman (33:12.680)
And what is it?
Lex Fridman (33:13.520)
Probably is my most played opening.
Lex Fridman (33:15.640)
And it's one where even when my coach
Lex Fridman (33:19.080)
who was a grandmaster taught me,
Botez Sisters (33:20.320)
he was like, so you know,
Lex Fridman (33:21.320)
I've been playing the King's Indian for 10 years
Lex Fridman (33:23.240)
and I still don't understand it.
Lex Fridman (33:25.200)
And it's one of those openings that computers
Botez Sisters (33:27.400)
really don't like because you do,
Lex Fridman (33:29.600)
or at least Stockfish doesn't like it.
Botez Sisters (33:31.320)
Maybe AlphaZero would change their mind.
Lex Fridman (33:32.920)
I forgot to look at what.
Lex Fridman (33:34.400)
Can you show me, by the way, what it is?
Lex Fridman (33:35.880)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (33:36.720)
Is it white's opening or black's opening?
Lex Fridman (33:39.880)
Black responds to the D4 Queen's pawn push.
Lex Fridman (33:44.880)
And you take your knight out to F6.
Lex Fridman (33:46.720)
I'll just put in the stereotypical,
Botez Sisters (33:50.280)
classical King's Indian more so to say.
Lex Fridman (33:54.600)
We actually have a very famous King's Indian game
Botez Sisters (33:57.000)
in the notes that we prepared.
Lex Fridman (33:58.640)
Okay.
Botez Sisters (33:59.480)
For the record, I asked you guys for some games
Lex Fridman (34:02.960)
that you find pretty cool
Lex Fridman (34:04.280)
and maybe to get a chance to talk about some.
Lex Fridman (34:06.520)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (34:07.640)
So this is the King's Indian.
Lex Fridman (34:09.200)
As you can see, white has much more control
Botez Sisters (34:13.560)
over the center.
Lex Fridman (34:14.400)
White has three pawns in the center
Botez Sisters (34:16.520)
while black has none past the fifth rank.
Lex Fridman (34:19.400)
And you just have this pawn on D6.
Lex Fridman (34:21.760)
And one of the ideas in chess is
Lex Fridman (34:23.520)
if you're not taking the center,
Botez Sisters (34:24.960)
then your plan revolves around
Lex Fridman (34:26.960)
trying to continually challenge it.
Lex Fridman (34:29.440)
But what is really fun about the King's Indian
Lex Fridman (34:33.000)
is that black sometimes gets these crazy King side attacks
Botez Sisters (34:37.880)
while white gets Queen side attacks.
Lex Fridman (34:39.600)
And even though it's a little bit suspicious for black
Lex Fridman (34:43.080)
and the computer could usually break it,
Lex Fridman (34:45.560)
it's hard to defend as a human when you're being attacked.
Lex Fridman (34:49.040)
But if you don't pull off the attack as black,
Lex Fridman (34:51.480)
then you're just gonna end up being lost in the end game.
Lex Fridman (34:54.120)
So it's like a very asymmetrical position.
Lex Fridman (34:56.320)
It's very asymmetrical,
Botez Sisters (34:57.720)
although a lot of people now stop playing
Lex Fridman (35:00.200)
into the classical King's Indian,
Botez Sisters (35:01.840)
even though computers give it a big advantage.
Lex Fridman (35:04.600)
And they play these slower lines in the King's Indian,
Botez Sisters (35:07.760)
which are less fun to play.
Lex Fridman (35:09.480)
What's slower mean?
Lex Fridman (35:10.400)
It takes a longer time to do something interesting with?
Lex Fridman (35:15.680)
They basically don't let you get as much
Botez Sisters (35:18.360)
of a King side attack
Lex Fridman (35:19.680)
because they try opening up the center
Lex Fridman (35:22.000)
and then you have no weaknesses,
Lex Fridman (35:23.800)
but you're just slowly improving the position of your pieces
Botez Sisters (35:27.000)
instead of being able to go for that King side attack.
Lex Fridman (35:29.320)
So for people just listening,
Botez Sisters (35:30.600)
there is the white pawns are all on the fourth row
Lex Fridman (35:34.840)
in a row together.
Botez Sisters (35:35.840)
That feels like a bad position.
Lex Fridman (35:37.520)
For black?
Botez Sisters (35:38.360)
For white.
Lex Fridman (35:39.480)
Oh, you don't like taking the center?
Botez Sisters (35:41.320)
No, I like taking the center.
Lex Fridman (35:43.400)
Now you're talking trash already.
Botez Sisters (35:44.920)
Oh, sorry.
Lex Fridman (35:45.760)
But it's just like they're like feel vulnerable
Botez Sisters (35:49.440)
there in a row together.
Lex Fridman (35:50.680)
Like it's like, you know,
Lex Fridman (35:53.360)
cause they're like, who's gonna defend them?
Lex Fridman (35:54.880)
I guess the Knights defend and the Queen defends it.
Botez Sisters (35:57.480)
You're actually talking about a theme
Lex Fridman (35:59.440)
that you do see sometimes, which is called hanging pawns.
Lex Fridman (36:02.320)
And when you have two pawns right next to each other
Lex Fridman (36:04.440)
with no other pawns to defend them.
Botez Sisters (36:06.320)
Yeah, so it is a valid point.
Lex Fridman (36:09.960)
And actually as black,
Botez Sisters (36:10.800)
you're trying to break apart these pawns
Lex Fridman (36:12.320)
or get them to push and create some holes into the position,
Lex Fridman (36:15.920)
but it's a trade off.
Lex Fridman (36:17.640)
And that's a lot of what chess openings are about.
Botez Sisters (36:20.880)
You get more space,
Lex Fridman (36:21.920)
but you'll also end up having to protect your pawns
Botez Sisters (36:24.120)
potentially or move them forward to the point
Lex Fridman (36:26.080)
where they're overextended.
Lex Fridman (36:27.200)
And plus pawns being vulnerable, it's kind of fun.
Lex Fridman (36:30.080)
It's like, there's more stuff in danger.
Botez Sisters (36:31.800)
They're not, cause if it's like this,
Lex Fridman (36:34.520)
everything's like trapped, like you can't do anything.
Botez Sisters (36:37.280)
Everything's blocked, yeah.
Lex Fridman (36:38.360)
And blocked off, yeah.
Botez Sisters (36:40.000)
It's like you can't have fun.
Lex Fridman (36:41.920)
Yeah, one of the most,
Botez Sisters (36:44.720)
one of the opening principles for white
Lex Fridman (36:46.120)
is get your pawns in the center.
Lex Fridman (36:47.520)
So I'd say like this is actually preferable for white.
Lex Fridman (36:51.880)
Let's go over some opening principles.
Botez Sisters (36:53.440)
There we go.
Lex Fridman (36:54.280)
Cause this is a very good learning lesson
Botez Sisters (36:56.000)
for any chess beginners in the audience.
Lex Fridman (37:01.880)
Okay, so first thing you wanna do is control the center.
Botez Sisters (37:04.200)
There we go, E4, the more aggressive one.
Lex Fridman (37:07.200)
Isn't that like the basic vanilla move?
Botez Sisters (37:09.760)
I didn't, somebody told me that's the most popular
Lex Fridman (37:12.320)
opening move in chess.
Botez Sisters (37:14.320)
It is.
Lex Fridman (37:15.160)
Why is that considered aggressive?
Lex Fridman (37:16.360)
So it's E4 and D4 and the king's pawn is known
Lex Fridman (37:20.400)
as being for more tactical players,
Botez Sisters (37:22.640)
whereas D4 is known for more positional players.
Lex Fridman (37:25.840)
So that's why it's considered more aggressive.
Botez Sisters (37:28.400)
Tactical.
Lex Fridman (37:29.240)
More gambits with E4, I think.
Lex Fridman (37:30.880)
So tactical means I'm gonna try to attack you.
Lex Fridman (37:35.600)
You're gonna try to go for puzzles
Lex Fridman (37:37.680)
and rely more on your combination abilities.
Lex Fridman (37:42.480)
Whereas if it's something positional,
Botez Sisters (37:44.560)
you usually have like three to four moves
Lex Fridman (37:46.840)
that are all good in the position,
Botez Sisters (37:48.040)
whereas tactics, you need to see this one line.
Lex Fridman (37:50.760)
So it's more precise.
Lex Fridman (37:52.280)
So this one's cool cause he can like,
Lex Fridman (37:54.960)
the queen can come out, the bishop can come out.
Botez Sisters (37:57.080)
Yeah, and that's one of the most popular checkmates
Lex Fridman (38:00.520)
and usually what you teach new students
Botez Sisters (38:02.320)
to try to cheese their friends
Lex Fridman (38:03.760)
cause then they feel really excited
Botez Sisters (38:04.960)
that they know this new trap
Lex Fridman (38:06.120)
where you bring the bishop and the queen out
Lex Fridman (38:07.960)
and you try to checkmate on F7.
Lex Fridman (38:09.600)
Yeah.
Botez Sisters (38:10.440)
It's the trap that queen's gambit, Beth Harmon,
Lex Fridman (38:12.840)
falls for in their first game versus the janitor.
Botez Sisters (38:16.240)
She gets all mad cause she gets checkmated very early.
Lex Fridman (38:18.680)
Oh, that's the one she gets checkmated with?
Botez Sisters (38:20.000)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (38:20.840)
Okay.
Botez Sisters (38:21.680)
I love how you guys were actually paying attention
Lex Fridman (38:23.080)
to the games carefully,
Botez Sisters (38:25.240)
which is pretty cool that they did a good job
Lex Fridman (38:26.840)
of improving, evolving her game throughout the show
Botez Sisters (38:29.920)
to actually represent an actual growth of a chess player.
Lex Fridman (38:33.360)
Yeah.
Botez Sisters (38:34.200)
They really took every detail into consideration,
Lex Fridman (38:37.520)
which was cool.
Botez Sisters (38:38.440)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (38:39.280)
So what else?
Botez Sisters (38:40.120)
That's, I brought stuff into the center.
Lex Fridman (38:41.960)
We'll do the same.
Botez Sisters (38:42.800)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (38:43.640)
So then you want to develop your pieces.
Lex Fridman (38:45.560)
So in the beginning of the game,
Lex Fridman (38:46.720)
you want to take out the bishops and knights first
Botez Sisters (38:49.160)
because you don't want to start
Lex Fridman (38:50.560)
with the most valuable piece like the queen
Botez Sisters (38:53.080)
cause then it'll become a vulnerability
Lex Fridman (38:54.880)
and it'll get attacked very early on.
Lex Fridman (38:57.120)
And the reason you're taking out these two pieces first
Lex Fridman (39:00.400)
is cause you want to castle your king.
Lex Fridman (39:02.480)
So you can move a knight move or a bishop move
Lex Fridman (39:04.680)
and that's considered developing.
Botez Sisters (39:06.720)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (39:07.560)
So at this stage, not like even before
Botez Sisters (39:10.320)
getting a few pawns out.
Lex Fridman (39:11.960)
You usually want to start with getting a pawn
Botez Sisters (39:14.920)
because you want to get space in the center,
Lex Fridman (39:16.960)
but also when you push pawns,
Botez Sisters (39:18.880)
it helps free up some of your pieces.
Lex Fridman (39:22.400)
So usually start with one pawn first
Lex Fridman (39:24.800)
and then you could start taking out your minor pieces,
Lex Fridman (39:26.880)
which is the bishop and the knight.
Botez Sisters (39:28.160)
I have anxiety about a pawn just floating out there.
Lex Fridman (39:31.320)
Defenseless.
Lex Fridman (39:32.680)
But it's not attacked yet.
Lex Fridman (39:34.440)
See, those are what you call ghost threats.
Lex Fridman (39:36.080)
So you're scared of something that hasn't happened yet.
Lex Fridman (39:38.480)
So if I were to attack it.
Botez Sisters (39:40.120)
Feel like there's a deeper thing going on here.
Lex Fridman (39:43.000)
Yeah.
Botez Sisters (39:43.840)
Actually, let's say.
Lex Fridman (39:44.680)
Yeah, so you're attacking the pawn in the center here
Lex Fridman (39:47.440)
and it is vulnerable, but as soon as you do that,
Lex Fridman (39:50.560)
I can develop my own knight and defend it as well.
Botez Sisters (39:53.720)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (39:54.560)
And now for people just listening,
Botez Sisters (39:55.380)
there's two pawns that just came out to meet each other
Lex Fridman (39:58.600)
and a couple of knights.
Botez Sisters (40:00.160)
You love the chess commentary.
Lex Fridman (40:01.520)
It's very poetic.
Botez Sisters (40:02.360)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (40:03.200)
The pawns met after midnight.
Botez Sisters (40:04.920)
Yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (40:06.000)
Well, I'm going to romanticize the game a bit.
Botez Sisters (40:08.400)
Yes, exactly.
Lex Fridman (40:09.240)
Okay, cool.
Lex Fridman (40:10.080)
So like there's, if you bring out the bishops
Lex Fridman (40:14.280)
with the knights, you're matching that with the other.
Botez Sisters (40:16.760)
Black is going to match it.
Lex Fridman (40:18.200)
Exactly.
Botez Sisters (40:19.040)
Whatever you're attacking with.
Lex Fridman (40:19.880)
Yep, he's developing.
Botez Sisters (40:20.700)
It's going to defend it.
Lex Fridman (40:21.540)
Now you could develop your bishop
Botez Sisters (40:23.440)
or your knight, whatever you'd like.
Lex Fridman (40:25.280)
Oh no, now you give him options.
Botez Sisters (40:27.280)
All right.
Lex Fridman (40:28.240)
Yeah, there you go.
Botez Sisters (40:30.000)
Now I am attacking the pawn in the center,
Lex Fridman (40:32.440)
which is what you were afraid about before,
Lex Fridman (40:34.580)
but let's see how you defend it here.
Lex Fridman (40:41.560)
By doing this symmetrical thing,
Botez Sisters (40:43.680)
bringing out the knight on the other side.
Lex Fridman (40:45.680)
And actually your other move was good as well,
Botez Sisters (40:48.080)
defending with the pawn,
Lex Fridman (40:49.100)
because then you're freeing up space for your bishop.
Lex Fridman (40:51.880)
So you're basically trying to develop your pieces
Lex Fridman (40:54.520)
as quickly as possible, put your pawns in the center,
Lex Fridman (40:57.480)
and then get your king to safety.
Lex Fridman (40:59.280)
And that's usually the basic opening tips that you get.
Lex Fridman (41:03.080)
And it is kind of counterintuitive
Lex Fridman (41:05.060)
that safety is in the corner of the board for a king.
Botez Sisters (41:09.120)
That was always confusing to me, but you know.
Lex Fridman (41:11.480)
Three pawns in front,
Botez Sisters (41:12.800)
though you typically don't push those.
Lex Fridman (41:15.360)
Maybe like one, maybe I'll go one square,
Lex Fridman (41:17.720)
but these will be like the wall of defense
Lex Fridman (41:21.080)
that keep him safe.
Lex Fridman (41:22.080)
But another way to also think about it
Lex Fridman (41:24.080)
is your pieces usually wanna point towards the center.
Botez Sisters (41:28.080)
If you have a knight closer to the center
Lex Fridman (41:29.860)
than closer to the side,
Botez Sisters (41:31.420)
it actually has more squares it can go to.
Lex Fridman (41:34.080)
So a huge part of it is just wanting to have flexibility
Botez Sisters (41:37.240)
for where your pieces go.
Lex Fridman (41:38.640)
So more pieces are going to be able to make threats
Botez Sisters (41:42.200)
in the center or even open up the position.
Lex Fridman (41:45.200)
So since that's where it's most likely to open,
Botez Sisters (41:48.460)
you want your king somewhere
Lex Fridman (41:49.560)
where the position will stay closed
Lex Fridman (41:51.240)
so that you have the pawns to defend.
Lex Fridman (41:52.920)
You know, there's like rules like this,
Lex Fridman (41:54.680)
but I always wonder,
Lex Fridman (41:55.800)
cause I've built chess engines,
Lex Fridman (41:57.560)
but then you start to wonder like,
Lex Fridman (42:00.400)
why is it that positionally these things are good?
Botez Sisters (42:03.360)
Like you've built up an intuition about it,
Lex Fridman (42:05.400)
but I wish, and that's the thing that would be amazing
Botez Sisters (42:08.360)
if engines could explain,
Lex Fridman (42:10.160)
why is this kind of thing better than this kind of thing?
Botez Sisters (42:13.320)
You start to build up an intuition,
Lex Fridman (42:15.040)
but if I'm just like knowing nothing about chess,
Botez Sisters (42:17.960)
it feels confusing that cornering your king,
Lex Fridman (42:21.280)
like getting him like trapped here.
Botez Sisters (42:25.160)
Like it feels like you could get checkmated easier there
Lex Fridman (42:27.920)
if I was just using like dumb intuition,
Lex Fridman (42:30.920)
but it seems like that's not the case.
Lex Fridman (42:33.380)
I imagine maybe, cause AlphaZero learned
Lex Fridman (42:36.460)
by playing games against itself, right?
Lex Fridman (42:38.580)
And I imagine if you have a lot of games
Lex Fridman (42:40.840)
and you do build an intuition,
Lex Fridman (42:42.360)
because if you were to keep your king in the center,
Botez Sisters (42:44.160)
you just see that in those games,
Lex Fridman (42:45.400)
you're dealing with threats a lot more often.
Lex Fridman (42:48.460)
But yeah, there's shortcut rules
Lex Fridman (42:50.320)
and this doesn't even mean it's the best way to play chess
Botez Sisters (42:53.120)
as we've seen with AlphaZero
Lex Fridman (42:55.720)
kind of changing the rules of the game a little bit.
Lex Fridman (42:58.040)
But as a human, to learn it from scratch
Lex Fridman (43:00.720)
is a lot more difficult than to start with principles.
Lex Fridman (43:03.320)
So that's why beginners usually learn chess this way.
Lex Fridman (43:07.560)
Yeah, because you're playing other humans
Lex Fridman (43:09.960)
and the other humans have also operated
Lex Fridman (43:11.960)
on a different principles.
Lex Fridman (43:13.000)
And that's why people that come up now
Lex Fridman (43:15.960)
that are training with engines
Botez Sisters (43:17.640)
are just going to be much better
Lex Fridman (43:20.400)
than the people of the past
Botez Sisters (43:21.520)
because they're gonna try out weirder ideas
Lex Fridman (43:24.880)
that go against the principles of old.
Lex Fridman (43:27.000)
And they're gonna do like weird stuff,
Lex Fridman (43:29.020)
including sacrifices and stuff like that.
Botez Sisters (43:30.840)
Yeah, and I also think that's why AlphaZero was so shocking
Lex Fridman (43:34.040)
because Stockfish was using an opening database.
Lex Fridman (43:37.320)
So it was already based off of knowledge
Lex Fridman (43:39.720)
that humans have from playing chess for years
Botez Sisters (43:41.880)
that we just thought is how you're supposed to play.
Lex Fridman (43:43.840)
Whereas AlphaZero just learned
Botez Sisters (43:45.300)
from playing the game so many times
Lex Fridman (43:47.240)
and came up with very novel opening ideas.
Lex Fridman (43:49.880)
Were you impressed by AlphaZero?
Lex Fridman (43:52.000)
Have you seen some of the games?
Botez Sisters (43:53.200)
I have seen some of the games.
Lex Fridman (43:54.480)
I think impressed, bewildered, and motivated
Botez Sisters (43:59.480)
were the three things I experienced.
Lex Fridman (44:01.400)
I think Magnus said he was also impressed
Botez Sisters (44:04.880)
that it could easily be mistaken for creativity.
Lex Fridman (44:09.000)
That's his trash talk towards the AI.
Botez Sisters (44:10.800)
That was a beautiful sentence.
Lex Fridman (44:12.340)
I was listening to the podcast.
Botez Sisters (44:14.460)
I mean, as a human, I agree with him
Lex Fridman (44:17.080)
because you don't wanna give the machine
Botez Sisters (44:18.400)
the power of creativity,
Lex Fridman (44:20.440)
but if it looks creative, give it a compliment.
Botez Sisters (44:25.680)
That's fair.
Lex Fridman (44:27.320)
I know that you're being nice to the machines
Botez Sisters (44:29.280)
in case they are ever looking back through this.
Lex Fridman (44:32.160)
What else is there?
Lex Fridman (44:33.200)
What other principles are there for the opening?
Lex Fridman (44:36.920)
You can go a little bit more forward, let's say.
Botez Sisters (44:39.840)
Yeah, we can finish full development.
Lex Fridman (44:42.040)
Positions like this, let's just say
Botez Sisters (44:43.920)
you developed all of your pieces.
Lex Fridman (44:45.840)
So that's like a really nice,
Botez Sisters (44:49.480)
like nobody took any pieces
Lex Fridman (44:51.680)
and we're just in a nice positional thing.
Botez Sisters (44:53.800)
Yeah, so it's not actually a very accurate one.
Lex Fridman (44:56.880)
So I'm actually, I could put a different one on the board,
Lex Fridman (44:59.160)
but usually after you've developed all of your pieces,
Lex Fridman (45:03.120)
you wanna get your queen out a little bit
Botez Sisters (45:05.480)
to connect your rooks,
Lex Fridman (45:06.720)
and you also start thinking about certain pawn pushes
Lex Fridman (45:09.320)
and getting more space.
Lex Fridman (45:11.200)
But another good tip is just can you improve
Lex Fridman (45:14.080)
the position of your pieces?
Lex Fridman (45:15.840)
Think about timing.
Lex Fridman (45:16.920)
So if you've already moved a piece once
Lex Fridman (45:19.000)
and there's a piece that hasn't moved at all,
Botez Sisters (45:20.600)
then you wanna focus on the piece that hasn't moved at all
Lex Fridman (45:23.440)
to be able to have it more likely to jump into the game.
Botez Sisters (45:26.680)
Right, so don't move pieces multiple times.
Lex Fridman (45:28.680)
Exactly.
Botez Sisters (45:29.520)
Like try to move it to the most optimal position.
Lex Fridman (45:31.440)
Yeah.
Botez Sisters (45:32.280)
Yeah, that makes sense.
Lex Fridman (45:33.400)
What, so what's the Indian,
Botez Sisters (45:37.480)
I think we kind of went over it,
Lex Fridman (45:38.800)
but did you ever say why you like it so much?
Lex Fridman (45:41.880)
Because it's weird?
Lex Fridman (45:42.720)
Because it's king size?
Botez Sisters (45:43.560)
I liked it because it's a very fun, aggressive defense
Lex Fridman (45:48.200)
where you're just throwing your pieces towards white,
Lex Fridman (45:51.960)
and there's so many sacrificing opportunities.
Lex Fridman (45:55.720)
And for some reason,
Botez Sisters (45:56.640)
tactical games always feel like the most beautiful,
Lex Fridman (45:59.560)
the most satisfying,
Lex Fridman (46:01.240)
and that's what I liked about the King's Indian.
Lex Fridman (46:03.120)
But I also suffered a lot from this love
Botez Sisters (46:06.360)
because I would play things
Lex Fridman (46:07.560)
that are not necessarily correct,
Botez Sisters (46:09.440)
then my attack wouldn't pan out,
Lex Fridman (46:11.040)
and then I would just struggle the rest of the game
Botez Sisters (46:12.800)
having no play and just trying to defend.
Lex Fridman (46:14.600)
So if you're always attacking,
Botez Sisters (46:15.440)
Wikipedia also says that,
Lex Fridman (46:16.920)
that you're known for your attacking play.
Botez Sisters (46:19.680)
It's also known for losses according to Stanford.
Lex Fridman (46:22.560)
Okay, let's not bring that up.
Botez Sisters (46:23.800)
See Wikipedia doesn't talk trash,
Lex Fridman (46:25.600)
it just says nice things.
Botez Sisters (46:27.560)
Yeah, Wikipedia's a lot nicer.
Lex Fridman (46:29.120)
I actually played a lot of positional chess in classic
Botez Sisters (46:32.640)
because I really like the slow squeeze,
Lex Fridman (46:35.320)
but when I transitioned to playing a lot of online chess,
Botez Sisters (46:38.640)
it's almost as if I was looking
Lex Fridman (46:40.560)
for more instant gratification
Botez Sisters (46:42.280)
because it feels so much better
Lex Fridman (46:44.240)
to beat someone with an attack.
Lex Fridman (46:46.280)
And even if sometimes it doesn't pan out,
Lex Fridman (46:48.280)
I was okay with it because you get so many games in.
Lex Fridman (46:51.240)
So I think my style in online chess
Lex Fridman (46:54.160)
really changed from my classical chess.
Lex Fridman (46:56.280)
What about you Andrea?
Lex Fridman (46:57.120)
Do you have a style?
Lex Fridman (46:58.160)
Are you attacking?
Lex Fridman (46:59.120)
Are you a more like conservative defensive player?
Lex Fridman (47:02.720)
Are you chaotic?
Lex Fridman (47:03.640)
Opening wise, I like to play more positionally.
Botez Sisters (47:06.200)
Like I like to push T4 and just slowly improve my pieces
Lex Fridman (47:09.680)
and slowly get an attack.
Lex Fridman (47:10.720)
But like Alex said, if you're playing bullet chess
Lex Fridman (47:13.400)
or blitz against viewers,
Botez Sisters (47:15.440)
you often like wanna play riskier moves
Lex Fridman (47:19.160)
that may not be as good.
Lex Fridman (47:20.640)
And then that's kind of when I would play more aggressive.
Lex Fridman (47:23.080)
But I do enjoy tournaments for that reason
Botez Sisters (47:25.320)
because then like once you're 15 moves in,
Lex Fridman (47:29.120)
which as soon as you're out of your prep,
Botez Sisters (47:31.400)
I like sitting and thinking in more positional,
Lex Fridman (47:34.880)
yeah, positional middle games.
Botez Sisters (47:37.200)
One of the games you found to be pretty cool
Lex Fridman (47:39.840)
was the Hakara Nakamura versus Galfan in 2009.
Lex Fridman (47:44.800)
And that one I think includes the King's Indian defense.
Lex Fridman (47:47.680)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (47:49.800)
Why is that an interesting one to you?
Lex Fridman (47:52.240)
I also play the King's Indian as black
Lex Fridman (47:54.160)
and I love this model game.
Lex Fridman (47:56.240)
But as Alex was saying,
Botez Sisters (47:58.160)
like all these advantages for the King's Indian.
Lex Fridman (48:00.440)
But now there's this one line
Botez Sisters (48:02.160)
that like every higher rated player
Lex Fridman (48:04.360)
just destroys my King's Indian.
Lex Fridman (48:06.600)
And you see these beautiful games and like,
Lex Fridman (48:08.560)
ah, yes, I wanna play for these ideas.
Lex Fridman (48:10.640)
But now no one plays into it anymore
Lex Fridman (48:12.280)
and you just get demolished.
Lex Fridman (48:13.440)
So this is why I don't play the King's Indian anymore,
Lex Fridman (48:15.360)
but not to ruin the fun.
Botez Sisters (48:16.400)
It's a love hate relationship, truly.
Lex Fridman (48:18.280)
The reality.
Lex Fridman (48:19.320)
But that's like the higher level players do
Lex Fridman (48:21.000)
or does everybody?
Botez Sisters (48:21.840)
Yeah, if you're studying openings
Lex Fridman (48:23.520)
and you know this line as white,
Botez Sisters (48:25.440)
you just, you automatically get the upper edge.
Lex Fridman (48:27.960)
And that's kind of how openings develop.
Botez Sisters (48:29.760)
You start having players trying new lines
Lex Fridman (48:32.840)
and then you see ones and then everybody adopts it
Botez Sisters (48:35.200)
if they think it's the best one.
Lex Fridman (48:36.600)
But yeah, so Hikaru is really known
Botez Sisters (48:38.520)
for his aggressive style of play.
Lex Fridman (48:41.000)
Is Hikaru black here or what?
Botez Sisters (48:42.160)
Yeah, Hikaru is black here.
Lex Fridman (48:43.240)
So he's playing the King's Indian.
Lex Fridman (48:45.240)
And as you can see in this position,
Lex Fridman (48:47.560)
white already has a lot, a huge center advantage.
Lex Fridman (48:51.320)
But what Hikaru is gonna start doing
Lex Fridman (48:52.880)
even with the next move is bringing all of his pieces
Botez Sisters (48:56.040)
towards the white King side,
Lex Fridman (48:57.640)
because his plan is to start pushing his pawns
Botez Sisters (49:00.520)
towards the white King and ignore the attack
Lex Fridman (49:03.320)
that goes on in the Queen side.
Botez Sisters (49:04.160)
It's all of the dream attack with the King's Indian.
Lex Fridman (49:06.880)
So there's a complete asymmetry towards the King side
Lex Fridman (49:09.920)
and the left side of the board is a ton of pieces.
Lex Fridman (49:12.640)
Yeah, exactly.
Botez Sisters (49:14.920)
Wow, he moved the knight like three times in a row.
Lex Fridman (49:17.360)
Yep, and that's what you need to do
Botez Sisters (49:19.080)
because you have to move the knight
Lex Fridman (49:20.560)
in order to make space for your pawn.
Lex Fridman (49:22.600)
So again, this is why it's so counterintuitive
Lex Fridman (49:24.800)
and Stockfish doesn't like it.
Botez Sisters (49:26.360)
You're putting almost most of your pieces on the back rank
Lex Fridman (49:29.680)
and you're pushing your King side pawns
Lex Fridman (49:31.560)
and you're blocking your own dark squared Bishop.
Lex Fridman (49:33.520)
So none of it makes sense.
Botez Sisters (49:35.400)
You're mimicking it, that's awesome.
Lex Fridman (49:37.760)
Okay, so yeah, here you see white going
Botez Sisters (49:39.640)
for a Queen side attack,
Lex Fridman (49:40.880)
black going for the King side attack
Lex Fridman (49:42.640)
and you can keep going a little bit
Lex Fridman (49:43.960)
and I'll wait to where he starts with the pretty sacrifices.
Botez Sisters (49:47.720)
It's more fun to analyze games in person
Lex Fridman (49:50.280)
than on the computer, I think.
Botez Sisters (49:51.480)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (49:53.720)
Okay, so here Hikaru is preparing the attack
Lex Fridman (49:57.320)
and what I really like about this game
Lex Fridman (49:59.160)
is that he finds these tactics
Botez Sisters (50:01.600)
that are not necessarily what a computer would go for
Lex Fridman (50:05.200)
but it's very hard to face as a human
Lex Fridman (50:07.720)
and that's why a lot of people play the King's Indian
Lex Fridman (50:09.880)
because in practice it's hard to defend against.
Lex Fridman (50:12.120)
So we can keep moving a little bit forward.
Lex Fridman (50:16.680)
Okay.
Botez Sisters (50:19.040)
Yep, so white is just continuing the King side plan.
Lex Fridman (50:21.760)
No, is that like the first piece
Lex Fridman (50:23.960)
I think that's taken in the game?
Lex Fridman (50:25.240)
Yep, that's the first trade.
Botez Sisters (50:26.560)
Attack begins.
Lex Fridman (50:27.920)
Exactly, Hikaru had to pause his attack for a little bit
Botez Sisters (50:30.760)
to just make sure that white didn't have
Lex Fridman (50:33.120)
two dire threats on the Queen side.
Lex Fridman (50:35.280)
So cool to see the asymmetry of this thing.
Lex Fridman (50:37.560)
Exactly, that's what's beautiful about the King's Indian.
Lex Fridman (50:39.960)
And just one thing to highlight
Lex Fridman (50:41.360)
because his rook move here is very bizarre
Lex Fridman (50:44.240)
and typically like a computer probably didn't like this
Lex Fridman (50:47.040)
but the ideas are interesting
Botez Sisters (50:48.880)
because this is a major weakness for black
Lex Fridman (50:51.120)
that they're coming to attack
Lex Fridman (50:52.480)
and he's also making room for his Bishop
Lex Fridman (50:54.640)
to come backwards and challenge.
Lex Fridman (50:56.120)
So this is like a human like maneuver
Lex Fridman (50:58.160)
that computers would like.
Botez Sisters (50:59.000)
I think computers would like this though
Lex Fridman (51:00.480)
because you'd have to move it regardless
Botez Sisters (51:02.440)
because he takes the pawn here
Lex Fridman (51:03.920)
and his rook would be under attack.
Botez Sisters (51:05.720)
Yeah, well having looked at it,
Lex Fridman (51:07.840)
when I actually studied this as a line
Lex Fridman (51:09.360)
and this right away isn't the best move cutting computer.
Lex Fridman (51:11.720)
So actually that's such a good question.
Lex Fridman (51:13.360)
So do you guys when you study games use your mind
Lex Fridman (51:15.520)
but do you also use computers to build up your intuition
Botez Sisters (51:19.440)
of like looking at a position like this
Lex Fridman (51:20.920)
and what would a computer do
Lex Fridman (51:22.400)
and then try to understand why it wants to do that?
Lex Fridman (51:24.840)
When I was studying seriously
Botez Sisters (51:26.600)
I would try to use my own mind
Lex Fridman (51:28.600)
because you're never gonna get the exact same position
Lex Fridman (51:31.400)
so you really need to notice trends
Lex Fridman (51:33.560)
and often computers will give you moves
Botez Sisters (51:35.280)
that are only specific to that position
Lex Fridman (51:38.040)
because of a certain tactic.
Lex Fridman (51:40.320)
But I do use computers to check what I did
Lex Fridman (51:43.000)
and make sure I didn't make any obvious blunder
Botez Sisters (51:44.760)
that I might have missed.
Lex Fridman (51:45.960)
What does a computer tell you?
Botez Sisters (51:47.000)
Just like what is the best move
Lex Fridman (51:49.040)
or does it give you any kind of explanation of why?
Botez Sisters (51:52.560)
It doesn't tell you why
Lex Fridman (51:54.080)
but it gives you the different valuations of the position
Botez Sisters (51:57.040)
like black is down a half pawn here or something like that
Lex Fridman (52:02.120)
but it hints you towards what the right move is
Lex Fridman (52:04.560)
and then it's on you to figure out why
Lex Fridman (52:06.640)
and you can usually figure out why if not right away
Botez Sisters (52:09.280)
then just by going through a few moves
Lex Fridman (52:10.680)
and being like, oh, okay, that makes sense.
Botez Sisters (52:12.840)
I feel like a computer will take you down
Lex Fridman (52:15.040)
with some weird lines potentially like sacrifice.
Lex Fridman (52:18.560)
Like why the hell am I sacrificing this?
Lex Fridman (52:20.960)
Well, we'll get to the pretty sacrifice soon.
Lex Fridman (52:24.520)
So we could just keep playing.
Lex Fridman (52:25.800)
The pawns are being pushed forward.
Botez Sisters (52:27.480)
Yeah, and Hikaru is kind of ignoring
Lex Fridman (52:31.760)
the queen side attack here.
Botez Sisters (52:33.800)
They basically both only reply to each other's plan
Lex Fridman (52:37.240)
when they have to.
Botez Sisters (52:39.400)
This is where you convert all the podcast viewers
Lex Fridman (52:41.920)
to YouTube.
Botez Sisters (52:43.160)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (52:44.000)
They have no idea what we're talking about right now.
Botez Sisters (52:46.200)
There is a Zen like experience
Lex Fridman (52:48.160)
of just like listening and imagining.
Botez Sisters (52:50.280)
The board.
Lex Fridman (52:51.120)
Just imagine the pieces on the ceiling.
Botez Sisters (52:52.960)
Yeah, we should be calling them out
Lex Fridman (52:55.240)
and then people will be freaking out even more.
Lex Fridman (52:56.880)
Am I supposed to keep track of what the position is?
Lex Fridman (52:59.600)
It's too late now.
Botez Sisters (53:01.600)
It's too many.
Lex Fridman (53:02.440)
How hard is blindfold chess?
Lex Fridman (53:03.440)
Have you tried?
Lex Fridman (53:04.280)
Like are you able to keep the mind?
Botez Sisters (53:05.600)
I've played blindfold chess before.
Lex Fridman (53:08.400)
For me, it's pretty hard.
Botez Sisters (53:09.680)
It's not a muscle that I've trained as much
Lex Fridman (53:11.360)
and I'm very visual when it comes to chess.
Lex Fridman (53:14.640)
But it is one as a top player
Lex Fridman (53:16.880)
that starts becoming very second nature for you.
Botez Sisters (53:20.080)
Actually, this is what, I talked to Magnus about this.
Lex Fridman (53:23.080)
Maybe I was, again, influenced by Queen's Gambit.
Lex Fridman (53:26.440)
What do you actually visualize when it's in your head?
Lex Fridman (53:29.160)
So for Magnus, it was a boring 2D board.
Botez Sisters (53:31.360)
Right.
Lex Fridman (53:32.200)
Do you have some kind of?
Botez Sisters (53:33.040)
That's every chess player, no.
Lex Fridman (53:34.720)
You don't have like,
Botez Sisters (53:35.560)
cause you know some chess like computer games,
Lex Fridman (53:38.520)
you can do all kinds of skins and like fancy stuff.
Lex Fridman (53:41.800)
You don't have any fancy stuff?
Lex Fridman (53:42.640)
Sadly, I don't have like a cool 3D warrior mode on.
Botez Sisters (53:45.920)
It's just the basic.
Lex Fridman (53:46.760)
I just have the default chess base board in my head.
Botez Sisters (53:49.040)
Cause you don't, yeah, you can't use your brain power
Lex Fridman (53:51.840)
for adding colors to it
Botez Sisters (53:53.240)
cause you already have to keep track of the pieces.
Lex Fridman (53:55.280)
And it's one board at a time?
Botez Sisters (53:56.920)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (53:57.760)
Okay.
Botez Sisters (53:58.600)
The current position.
Lex Fridman (53:59.440)
Yeah, I bet every chess.
Botez Sisters (54:00.280)
I wonder if there's any who hit it differently.
Lex Fridman (54:01.840)
There's certain players who are really good
Lex Fridman (54:04.440)
and they can even play blindfold chess
Lex Fridman (54:06.280)
and play multiple games at the same time.
Lex Fridman (54:09.640)
So I would be curious how they do it.
Lex Fridman (54:11.440)
But usually when you're thinking of one game,
Botez Sisters (54:13.160)
that's the only one in your mind.
Lex Fridman (54:14.960)
Yeah, but you have to do this operation
Botez Sisters (54:16.480)
where you move one piece.
Lex Fridman (54:18.640)
You're doing like the branch analysis.
Botez Sisters (54:22.360)
Like, and so you still have to somehow visualize
Lex Fridman (54:27.440)
the branching process and not forget stuff.
Botez Sisters (54:31.360)
Maybe that's like constant memory recall or something.
Lex Fridman (54:34.640)
You're always looking at one board at a time, but.
Lex Fridman (54:36.640)
And you're also, oh, cause you're also looking in the future.
Lex Fridman (54:38.880)
Yeah.
Botez Sisters (54:39.720)
Cause then you have to back track.
Lex Fridman (54:40.560)
Calculating variations and coming back.
Botez Sisters (54:41.400)
I guess you're keeping the position in your memory.
Lex Fridman (54:44.120)
So you're remembering where all the pieces are
Lex Fridman (54:45.920)
and then you're playing it out on one board
Lex Fridman (54:48.240)
and then you can come back to the initial one
Botez Sisters (54:50.720)
that you started with that you kind of just keep
Lex Fridman (54:52.600)
in your brain and it's also easier to come back to it
Botez Sisters (54:55.280)
once you've played a position from it.
Lex Fridman (54:57.600)
I feel like it's that memory recall
Botez Sisters (55:03.040)
that gets you to blunder.
Lex Fridman (55:04.760)
So I'll like see that I'm being attacked by certain things,
Lex Fridman (55:09.120)
but then because I get so exhausted thinking
Lex Fridman (55:11.840)
about a different thing, I forget,
Botez Sisters (55:13.640)
I actually forget about an entire branch of things
Lex Fridman (55:16.480)
that I was supposed to be worried about.
Botez Sisters (55:17.800)
It happens very often.
Lex Fridman (55:18.920)
Yeah.
Botez Sisters (55:19.760)
If you spend a bunch of time calculating in a position,
Lex Fridman (55:22.320)
let's say like when you're really in trouble
Lex Fridman (55:24.160)
and you're spending 15, 20 minutes calculating,
Lex Fridman (55:26.800)
you'll forget about something that you spotted like,
Botez Sisters (55:29.000)
oh, if I do these two, three moves, I'll walk into a trap
Lex Fridman (55:32.080)
cause you've looked at so many lines and then you play it
Lex Fridman (55:34.040)
and then you see it and you're like, oh, I looked at it
Lex Fridman (55:36.440)
and I saw it, but I forgot about it.
Botez Sisters (55:39.000)
It's often called tunneling where you're just looking
Lex Fridman (55:41.760)
so deeply on one thing you forget about the rest
Botez Sisters (55:43.880)
of the board.
Lex Fridman (55:45.120)
And it's the worst when, at least in a beginner level,
Botez Sisters (55:47.920)
there's like a, I don't know, a Bishop just sitting there,
Lex Fridman (55:51.320)
obviously attacking your like queen or something.
Lex Fridman (55:54.640)
And then you just forget that Bishop exists.
Lex Fridman (55:57.600)
Cause if they just sit there for a few moves
Lex Fridman (55:59.480)
and don't move, you just forget their existence.
Lex Fridman (56:02.880)
And then it's just, yeah, that's definitely very embarrassing.
Botez Sisters (56:05.720)
Well, it happens to everyone, so.
Lex Fridman (56:08.560)
Yes.
Botez Sisters (56:10.320)
Okay, cool.
Lex Fridman (56:11.440)
Okay, so we see a few trades happening on the queen side
Botez Sisters (56:16.040)
where he had to go for those, otherwise he's in trouble.
Lex Fridman (56:18.960)
And this is where the game, oh, sorry.
Botez Sisters (56:22.200)
This is where it gets exciting.
Lex Fridman (56:23.960)
Yeah, so Knight H4 is really when the sacrifice starts.
Lex Fridman (56:28.840)
And here the two important pawns are the ones in front
Lex Fridman (56:33.320)
of the King, cause they're helping with the entire defense
Lex Fridman (56:35.880)
and Hikaru is actually preparing to sacrifice his Knight
Lex Fridman (56:38.800)
for a pawn just so that he can continue his attack
Lex Fridman (56:42.440)
and open up the position.
Lex Fridman (56:43.800)
Because if you don't do that here as black
Lex Fridman (56:45.760)
and don't get some kind of attack,
Lex Fridman (56:47.040)
you are completely lost on the queen side.
Lex Fridman (56:49.320)
And also you've pushed all of your own king side pawns,
Lex Fridman (56:51.920)
so you're gonna be in danger.
Lex Fridman (56:53.120)
So it's one of those do or die moments.
Lex Fridman (56:55.760)
Oh, okay, so that's what makes it all in,
Botez Sisters (56:57.680)
cause the King is wide open.
Lex Fridman (56:58.880)
Yeah, yeah, the King is wide open
Lex Fridman (57:01.080)
and all of White's pieces are pointed
Lex Fridman (57:03.880)
towards the queen side too, where you're also cramped.
Lex Fridman (57:06.080)
So is the attack primarily by black done
Lex Fridman (57:08.200)
by the two pawns and the Knight?
Lex Fridman (57:10.320)
And the light squared Bishop is always extremely important.
Lex Fridman (57:13.160)
So you don't wanna trade this in the King's Indian
Botez Sisters (57:15.240)
because it's very helpful for a lot of attacks.
Lex Fridman (57:18.480)
Even though it's on the other side of the board,
Botez Sisters (57:19.960)
I guess it can go all the way across in,
Lex Fridman (57:23.200)
like I'm not sure what it's doing here,
Lex Fridman (57:25.160)
but probably threatening.
Lex Fridman (57:26.080)
Like for example, if it was another move black
Botez Sisters (57:29.240)
could have played would be something like Bishop H3,
Lex Fridman (57:32.000)
where if you take the Bishop,
Botez Sisters (57:33.200)
you actually get mated on G2.
Lex Fridman (57:35.440)
With what?
Lex Fridman (57:36.280)
So let's say you take here
Lex Fridman (57:37.480)
and then you could push the pawn
Lex Fridman (57:39.200)
and then it would be checkmate.
Lex Fridman (57:40.920)
So you're kind of using your Bishop to sacrifice
Botez Sisters (57:44.480)
against White's King side pawns.
Lex Fridman (57:47.400)
Yeah, I'll be freaking out if their Bishop did that.
Lex Fridman (57:50.840)
What are they up to?
Lex Fridman (57:51.800)
Right, and that's the thing,
Botez Sisters (57:53.200)
this position looks very scary as White
Lex Fridman (57:55.320)
because all of Black's pawns are starting
Botez Sisters (57:57.200)
to come towards you.
Lex Fridman (57:58.560)
And it's one of those things where humans
Botez Sisters (58:01.000)
do start to worry in these positions,
Lex Fridman (58:03.040)
whereas computers obviously can just calculate
Botez Sisters (58:05.200)
the best line and maybe the attack doesn't go through.
Lex Fridman (58:07.520)
So you're saying the computer might say
Lex Fridman (58:09.200)
that the White is actually a slight favorite here?
Lex Fridman (58:12.160)
Yeah, potentially.
Botez Sisters (58:13.680)
Okay, so then White makes a little bit of room
Lex Fridman (58:17.040)
by moving the Rook.
Botez Sisters (58:18.160)
Right.
Lex Fridman (58:19.000)
And the attack begins.
Botez Sisters (58:20.360)
I like the commentary here.
Lex Fridman (58:23.160)
The Knight is hugging the King.
Lex Fridman (58:26.200)
And actually White can't even take the King here
Lex Fridman (58:28.800)
because then H4 and H3 is coming in.
Botez Sisters (58:31.360)
White can't take the Knight.
Lex Fridman (58:32.640)
Yeah, oh did I say King?
Botez Sisters (58:33.840)
Yes, thank you, the Knight.
Lex Fridman (58:35.080)
White can't take the Knight because why?
Lex Fridman (58:37.440)
So if White takes the Knight here,
Lex Fridman (58:39.360)
then Black starts pushing his pawn to H4
Botez Sisters (58:41.960)
with H3 incoming and the idea of trying
Lex Fridman (58:45.360)
to defend against this is, it looks very difficult.
Lex Fridman (58:49.760)
So White just chooses.
Lex Fridman (58:51.200)
It'd be cool to watch a chess game,
Botez Sisters (58:53.200)
to experience watching it without understanding it
Lex Fridman (58:55.960)
just for a day.
Botez Sisters (58:57.080)
Feel like I could use that to make better content.
Lex Fridman (58:59.440)
True.
Botez Sisters (59:01.320)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (59:02.160)
I mean, that's what getting drunk does.
Botez Sisters (59:03.240)
Unfortunately for chess players,
Lex Fridman (59:05.720)
it never leaves your brain.
Botez Sisters (59:07.600)
Doesn't matter how.
Lex Fridman (59:08.880)
But this is actually a very cute move
Botez Sisters (59:10.840)
because Black's Queen is under attack,
Lex Fridman (59:13.480)
but the King is so cramped that he can't actually take it
Botez Sisters (59:16.880)
or he's gonna get checkmated by a pawn,
Lex Fridman (59:18.680)
which is a sad way to go cruelly.
Botez Sisters (59:20.920)
Yeah, those pawns are doing a lot of work here.
Lex Fridman (59:23.200)
They really are.
Botez Sisters (59:24.040)
That is the King's Indian.
Lex Fridman (59:24.880)
This is the King's Indian player's dream.
Botez Sisters (59:26.720)
The attack of the King side pawns.
Lex Fridman (59:29.120)
Yeah, these pawns are like, right,
Lex Fridman (59:31.240)
so they're the ones that are doing a lot
Lex Fridman (59:32.720)
of the threatening.
Botez Sisters (59:33.840)
Right, and they're also opening up the position
Lex Fridman (59:35.960)
to bring more of the pieces in.
Lex Fridman (59:37.640)
But the pawns kind of help break open the King side,
Lex Fridman (59:41.560)
but they can't checkmate by themselves.
Lex Fridman (59:43.560)
So after the pawns come in,
Lex Fridman (59:44.880)
that's when you need to start bringing in pieces as well,
Botez Sisters (59:46.760)
which you will see Ahi Kar do here.
Lex Fridman (59:49.360)
Okay. There you go.
Botez Sisters (59:50.200)
He puts. One more sacrifice.
Lex Fridman (59:52.000)
This was actually another beautiful sacrifice in the game.
Lex Fridman (59:56.360)
But then puts the King in check with a pawn.
Lex Fridman (59:59.040)
Right, and the pawn is going to be given here for free,
🔗 相关节目
Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan: The Greatest of All Time
Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan
Joe Rogan: Conversations, Ideas, Love, Freedom & The Joe Rogan Experience
Joe Rogan
Magnus Carlsen: Greatest Chess Player of All Time
Magnus Carlsen
Robert Rodriguez
Robert Rodriguez