Michael Stevens: Vsauce
音乐与艺术生物与进化心理与人性技术与编程物理与宇宙学
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🎙️ 完整对话（1250 条）
Lex Fridman (00:00.000)
The following is a conversation with Michael Stevens,
以下是与迈克尔·史蒂文斯的对话，
Lex Fridman (00:02.680)
the creator of Vsauce,
Vsauce的创造者，
Lex Fridman (00:04.500)
one of the most popular educational YouTube channels
最受欢迎的 YouTube 教育频道之一
Lex Fridman (00:07.000)
in the world with over 15 million subscribers
在全球拥有超过 1500 万订阅者
Lex Fridman (00:10.080)
and over 1.7 billion views.
观看次数超过 17 亿次。
Michael Stevens (00:13.040)
His videos often ask and answer questions
他的视频经常提出和回答问题
Lex Fridman (00:16.160)
that are both profound and entertaining,
既深刻又有趣，
Michael Stevens (00:18.780)
spanning topics from physics to psychology.
主题涵盖从物理学到心理学。
Lex Fridman (00:21.800)
Popular questions include,
热门问题包括，
Lex Fridman (00:23.640)
what if everyone jumped at once?
如果每个人都同时跳下去怎么办？
Lex Fridman (00:25.440)
Or what if the sun disappeared?
或者如果太阳消失了怎么办？
Lex Fridman (00:27.680)
Or why are things creepy?
或者为什么事情令人毛骨悚然？
Lex Fridman (00:29.820)
Or what if the earth stopped spinning?
或者如果地球停止旋转怎么办？
Michael Stevens (00:32.840)
As part of his channel,
作为他频道的一部分，
Lex Fridman (00:34.040)
he created three seasons of Mind Field,
他创作了三季《Mind Field》，
Michael Stevens (00:36.320)
a series that explored human behavior.
探索人类行为的系列。
Lex Fridman (00:38.760)
His curiosity and passion are contagious
他的好奇心和热情具有感染力
Lex Fridman (00:41.640)
and inspiring to millions of people.
并激励着数百万人。
Lex Fridman (00:44.080)
And so as an educator,
所以作为一名教育者，
Michael Stevens (00:45.240)
his impact and contribution to the world
他对世界的影响和贡献
Lex Fridman (00:47.540)
is truly immeasurable.
Michael Stevens (00:49.780)
This is the Artificial Intelligence Podcast.
Lex Fridman (00:52.840)
If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube,
Michael Stevens (00:55.200)
give it five stars on Apple Podcast,
Lex Fridman (00:57.160)
support it on Patreon,
Michael Stevens (00:58.600)
or simply connect with me on Twitter,
Lex Fridman (01:00.640)
at Lex Friedman, spelled F R I D M A N.
Michael Stevens (01:04.900)
I recently started doing ads
Lex Fridman (01:06.400)
at the end of the introduction.
Michael Stevens (01:08.120)
I'll do one or two minutes after introducing the episode
Lex Fridman (01:10.780)
and never any ads in the middle
Michael Stevens (01:12.740)
that break the flow of the conversation.
Lex Fridman (01:14.760)
I hope that works for you
Lex Fridman (01:16.120)
and doesn't hurt the listening experience.
Lex Fridman (01:19.000)
This show is presented by Cash App,
Michael Stevens (01:21.500)
the number one finance app in the App Store.
Lex Fridman (01:24.000)
I personally use Cash App to send money to friends,
Lex Fridman (01:26.560)
but you can also use it to buy, sell,
Lex Fridman (01:28.280)
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Michael Stevens (01:30.720)
Cash App also has a new investing feature.
Lex Fridman (01:33.480)
You can buy fractions of a stock, say $1 worth,
Michael Stevens (01:36.320)
no matter what the stock price is.
Lex Fridman (01:38.280)
Broker services are provided by Cash App Investing,
Michael Stevens (01:40.880)
a subsidiary of Square and member SIPC.
Lex Fridman (01:44.200)
I'm excited to be working with Cash App
Michael Stevens (01:46.180)
to support one of my favorite organizations called First,
Lex Fridman (01:49.120)
best known for their first robotics and Lego competitions.
Michael Stevens (01:52.440)
They educate and inspire hundreds of thousands of students
Lex Fridman (01:56.000)
in over 110 countries
Lex Fridman (01:57.720)
and have a perfect rating on Charity Navigator,
Lex Fridman (02:00.320)
which means the donated money
Michael Stevens (02:01.640)
is used to maximum effectiveness.
Lex Fridman (02:04.280)
When you get Cash App from the App Store, Google Play,
Lex Fridman (02:07.180)
and use code LEXPODCAST, you'll get $10,
Lex Fridman (02:11.040)
and Cash App will also donate $10 to First,
Michael Stevens (02:13.760)
which again is an organization
Lex Fridman (02:15.480)
that I've personally seen inspire girls and boys
Michael Stevens (02:18.360)
to dream of engineering a better world.
Lex Fridman (02:21.660)
And now here's my conversation with Michael Stevens.
Michael Stevens (02:25.940)
One of your deeper interests is psychology,
Lex Fridman (02:30.260)
understanding human behavior.
Michael Stevens (02:32.620)
You've pointed out how messy studying human behavior is
Lex Fridman (02:35.480)
and that it's far from the scientific rigor
Michael Stevens (02:37.420)
of something like physics, for example.
Lex Fridman (02:40.880)
How do you think we can take psychology
Michael Stevens (02:43.640)
from where it's been in the 20th century
Lex Fridman (02:45.680)
to something more like what the physicists,
Michael Stevens (02:49.100)
theoretical physicists are doing,
Lex Fridman (02:50.460)
something precise, something rigorous?
Michael Stevens (02:52.380)
Well, we could do it by finding
Lex Fridman (02:57.600)
the physical foundations of psychology, right?
Michael Stevens (03:01.200)
If all of our emotions and moods and feelings and behaviors
Lex Fridman (03:05.840)
are the result of mechanical behaviors of atoms
Lex Fridman (03:11.120)
and molecules in our brains,
Lex Fridman (03:12.800)
then can we find correlations?
Michael Stevens (03:15.400)
Perhaps like chaos makes that really difficult
Lex Fridman (03:17.760)
and the uncertainty principle and all these things.
Michael Stevens (03:19.520)
That we can't know the position and velocity
Lex Fridman (03:22.760)
of every single quantum state in a brain, probably.
Lex Fridman (03:27.140)
But I think that if we can get to that point with psychology,
Lex Fridman (03:33.560)
then we can start to think about consciousness
Michael Stevens (03:37.380)
in a physical and mathematical way.
Lex Fridman (03:40.960)
When we ask questions like, well, what is self reference?
Lex Fridman (03:44.760)
How can you think about yourself thinking?
Lex Fridman (03:47.320)
What are some mathematical structures
Lex Fridman (03:49.160)
that could bring that about?
Lex Fridman (03:52.400)
There's ideas of, in terms of consciousness
Lex Fridman (03:55.560)
and breaking it down into physics,
Lex Fridman (03:59.260)
there's ideas of panpsychism where people believe
Michael Stevens (04:02.400)
that whatever consciousness is,
Lex Fridman (04:04.840)
is a fundamental part of reality.
Michael Stevens (04:07.480)
It's almost like a physics law.
Lex Fridman (04:08.860)
Do you think, what's your views on consciousness?
Lex Fridman (04:11.560)
Do you think it has this deep part of reality
Lex Fridman (04:15.600)
or is it something that's deeply human
Lex Fridman (04:17.840)
and constructed by us humans?
Lex Fridman (04:21.640)
Starting nice and light and easy.
Michael Stevens (04:25.120)
Nothing I ask you today has actually proven answer.
Lex Fridman (04:28.280)
So we're just hypothesizing.
Lex Fridman (04:29.720)
So yeah, I mean, I should clarify, this is all speculation
Lex Fridman (04:32.960)
and I'm not an expert in any of these topics
Lex Fridman (04:35.320)
and I'm not God, but I think that consciousness
Lex Fridman (04:39.840)
is probably something that can be fully explained
Michael Stevens (04:44.840)
within the laws of physics.
Lex Fridman (04:48.280)
I think that our bodies and brains and the universe
Lex Fridman (04:51.960)
and at the quantum level is so rich and complex.
Lex Fridman (04:56.280)
I'd be surprised if we couldn't find a room
Michael Stevens (04:58.560)
for consciousness there.
Lex Fridman (05:00.800)
And why should we be conscious?
Lex Fridman (05:04.440)
Why are we aware of ourselves?
Lex Fridman (05:06.200)
That is a very strange and interesting
Lex Fridman (05:10.400)
and important question.
Lex Fridman (05:11.960)
And I think for the next few thousand years,
Michael Stevens (05:15.640)
we're going to have to believe in answers purely on faith.
Lex Fridman (05:20.200)
But my guess is that we will find that,
Michael Stevens (05:25.080)
within the configuration space
Lex Fridman (05:27.080)
of possible arrangements of the universe,
Michael Stevens (05:29.860)
there are some that contain memories of others.
Lex Fridman (05:34.240)
Literally, Julian Barber calls them time capsule states
Michael Stevens (05:38.140)
where you're like, yeah, not only do I have a scratch
Lex Fridman (05:40.400)
on my arm, but also this state of the universe
Michael Stevens (05:43.160)
also contains a memory in my head
Lex Fridman (05:45.720)
of being scratched by my cat three days ago.
Lex Fridman (05:48.560)
And for some reason, those kinds of states of the universe
Lex Fridman (05:52.940)
are more plentiful or more likely.
Michael Stevens (05:55.800)
When you say those states,
Lex Fridman (05:57.120)
the ones that contain memories of its past
Michael Stevens (06:00.000)
or ones that contain memories of its past
Lex Fridman (06:02.760)
and have degrees of consciousness.
Michael Stevens (06:05.400)
Just the first part, because I think the consciousness
Lex Fridman (06:08.640)
then emerges from the fact that a state of the universe
Michael Stevens (06:13.160)
that contains fragments or memories of other states
Lex Fridman (06:19.660)
is one where you're going to feel like there's time.
Michael Stevens (06:22.560)
You're going to feel like, yeah,
Lex Fridman (06:24.160)
things happened in the past.
Lex Fridman (06:26.400)
And I don't know what'll happen in the future
Lex Fridman (06:27.980)
because these states don't contain information
Michael Stevens (06:29.600)
about the future.
Lex Fridman (06:30.760)
For some reason, those kinds of states
Michael Stevens (06:34.000)
are either more common, more plentiful,
Lex Fridman (06:38.240)
or you could use the anthropic principle and just say,
Michael Stevens (06:40.840)
well, they're extremely rare,
Lex Fridman (06:42.480)
but until you are in one, or if you are in one,
Michael Stevens (06:45.720)
then you can ask questions,
Lex Fridman (06:46.860)
like you're asking me on this podcast.
Lex Fridman (06:49.920)
Why questions?
Lex Fridman (06:50.760)
Yeah, it's like, why are we conscious?
Michael Stevens (06:52.560)
Well, because if we weren't,
Lex Fridman (06:53.400)
we wouldn't be asking why we were.
Michael Stevens (06:56.040)
You've kind of implied that you have a sense,
Lex Fridman (06:59.480)
again, hypothesis, theorizing
Michael Stevens (07:02.360)
that the universe is deterministic.
Lex Fridman (07:05.560)
What's your thoughts about free will?
Lex Fridman (07:08.040)
Do you think of the universe as deterministic
Lex Fridman (07:10.320)
in a sense that it's unrolling a particular,
Michael Stevens (07:14.000)
like there's a,
Lex Fridman (07:14.960)
it's operating under a specific set of physical laws.
Lex Fridman (07:17.920)
And when you have to set the initial conditions,
Lex Fridman (07:21.360)
it will unroll in the exact same way
Michael Stevens (07:23.500)
in our particular line of the universe every time.
Lex Fridman (07:28.440)
That is a very useful way to think about the universe.
Michael Stevens (07:31.600)
It's done us well.
Lex Fridman (07:32.440)
It's brought us to the moon.
Lex Fridman (07:33.740)
It's brought us to where we are today, right?
Lex Fridman (07:35.920)
I would not say that I believe in determinism
Michael Stevens (07:40.280)
in that kind of an absolute form,
Lex Fridman (07:43.200)
or actually I just don't care.
Michael Stevens (07:45.560)
Maybe it's true,
Lex Fridman (07:46.720)
but I'm not gonna live my life like it is.
Lex Fridman (07:49.920)
What in your sense,
Lex Fridman (07:50.880)
cause you've studied kind of how we humans
Michael Stevens (07:54.120)
think of the world.
Lex Fridman (07:55.820)
What's in your view is the difference between our perception,
Michael Stevens (07:59.240)
like how we think the world is and reality.
Lex Fridman (08:02.320)
Do you think there's a huge gap there?
Michael Stevens (08:04.120)
Like we delude ourselves that the whole thing is an illusion.
Lex Fridman (08:07.240)
Just everything about human psychology,
Michael Stevens (08:09.360)
the way we see things and how things actually are.
Lex Fridman (08:12.880)
All the things you've studied, what's your sense?
Lex Fridman (08:14.760)
How big is the gap between reality and perception?
Lex Fridman (08:16.920)
Well, again, purely speculative.
Michael Stevens (08:18.920)
I think that we will never know the answer.
Lex Fridman (08:20.960)
We cannot know the answer.
Michael Stevens (08:22.600)
There is no experiment to find an answer to that question.
Lex Fridman (08:26.960)
Everything we experience is an event in our brain.
Michael Stevens (08:30.240)
When I look at a cat, I'm not even,
Lex Fridman (08:32.880)
I can't prove that there's a cat there.
Michael Stevens (08:36.660)
All I am experiencing is the perception of a cat
Lex Fridman (08:40.900)
inside my own brain.
Michael Stevens (08:43.100)
I am only a witness to the events of my mind.
Lex Fridman (08:46.300)
I think it is very useful to infer that
Michael Stevens (08:50.060)
if I witness the event of cat in my head,
Lex Fridman (08:54.060)
it's because I'm looking at a cat that is literally there
Lex Fridman (08:57.180)
and it has its own feelings and motivations
Lex Fridman (08:59.900)
and should be pet and given food and water and love.
Michael Stevens (09:03.100)
I think that's the way you should live your life.
Lex Fridman (09:05.940)
But whether or not we live in a simulation,
Michael Stevens (09:09.500)
I'm a brain in a vat, I don't know.
Lex Fridman (09:13.040)
Do you care?
Michael Stevens (09:14.900)
I don't really.
Lex Fridman (09:16.800)
Well, I care because it's a fascinating question.
Lex Fridman (09:19.580)
And it's a fantastic way to get people excited about
Lex Fridman (09:23.740)
all kinds of topics, physics, psychology,
Michael Stevens (09:26.260)
consciousness, philosophy.
Lex Fridman (09:28.100)
But at the end of the day, what would the difference be?
Michael Stevens (09:31.000)
If you...
Lex Fridman (09:31.840)
The cat needs to be fed at the end of the day,
Michael Stevens (09:33.780)
otherwise it'll be a dead cat.
Lex Fridman (09:35.620)
Right, but if it's not even a real cat,
Michael Stevens (09:38.420)
then it's just like a video game cat.
Lex Fridman (09:40.320)
And right, so what's the difference between killing
Michael Stevens (09:43.040)
a digital cat in a video game because of neglect
Lex Fridman (09:46.740)
versus a real cat?
Michael Stevens (09:48.320)
It seems very different to us psychologically.
Lex Fridman (09:50.540)
Like I don't really feel bad about, oh my gosh,
Lex Fridman (09:52.400)
I forgot to feed my Tamagotchi, right?
Lex Fridman (09:54.380)
But I would feel terrible
Michael Stevens (09:55.780)
if I forgot to feed my actual cats.
Lex Fridman (09:58.940)
So can you just touch on the topic of simulation?
Lex Fridman (10:03.420)
Do you find this thought experiment that we're living
Lex Fridman (10:06.220)
in a simulation useful, inspiring or constructive
Lex Fridman (10:10.500)
in any kind of way?
Lex Fridman (10:11.580)
Do you think it's ridiculous?
Lex Fridman (10:12.980)
Do you think it could be true?
Lex Fridman (10:14.980)
Or is it just a useful thought experiment?
Michael Stevens (10:17.540)
I think it is extremely useful as a thought experiment
Lex Fridman (10:20.920)
because it makes sense to everyone,
Michael Stevens (10:24.700)
especially as we see virtual reality
Lex Fridman (10:27.360)
and computer games getting more and more complex.
Michael Stevens (10:30.580)
You're not talking to an audience in like Newton's time
Lex Fridman (10:33.900)
where you're like, imagine a clock
Michael Stevens (10:36.660)
that it has mechanics in it that are so complex
Lex Fridman (10:38.820)
that it can create love.
Lex Fridman (10:40.220)
And everyone's like, no.
Lex Fridman (10:42.380)
But today you really start to feel, man,
Michael Stevens (10:46.540)
at what point is this little robot friend of mine
Lex Fridman (10:48.960)
gonna be like someone I don't want to cancel plans with?
Lex Fridman (10:53.960)
And so it's a great, the thought experiment
Lex Fridman (10:59.000)
of do we live in a simulation?
Michael Stevens (11:00.280)
Am I a brain in a vat that is just being given
Lex Fridman (11:03.760)
electrical impulses from some nefarious other beings
Lex Fridman (11:08.960)
so that I believe that I live on earth
Lex Fridman (11:11.000)
and that I have a body and all of this?
Lex Fridman (11:13.040)
And the fact that you can't prove it either way
Lex Fridman (11:15.480)
is a fantastic way to introduce people
Michael Stevens (11:17.480)
to some of the deepest questions.
Lex Fridman (11:20.760)
So you mentioned a little buddy
Michael Stevens (11:23.080)
that you would want to cancel an appointment with.
Lex Fridman (11:25.700)
So that's a lot of our conversations.
Michael Stevens (11:27.800)
That's what my research is, is artificial intelligence.
Lex Fridman (11:32.240)
And I apologize, but you're such a fun person
Michael Stevens (11:34.520)
to ask these big questions with.
Lex Fridman (11:36.880)
Well, I hope I can give some answers that are interesting.
Michael Stevens (11:40.200)
Well, because of you've sharpened your brain's ability
Lex Fridman (11:45.200)
to explore some of the most, some of the questions
Michael Stevens (11:47.940)
that many scientists are actually afraid of even touching,
Lex Fridman (11:51.120)
which is fascinating.
Michael Stevens (11:52.380)
I think you're in that sense ultimately a great scientist
Lex Fridman (11:56.580)
through this process of sharpening your brain.
Michael Stevens (11:58.920)
Well, I don't know if I am a scientist.
Lex Fridman (12:01.740)
I think science is a way of knowing
Lex Fridman (12:04.920)
and there are a lot of questions I investigate
Lex Fridman (12:09.440)
that are not scientific questions.
Michael Stevens (12:11.960)
On like mind field, we have definitely done
Lex Fridman (12:14.200)
scientific experiments and studies that had hypotheses
Lex Fridman (12:17.680)
and all of that, but not to be too like precious
Lex Fridman (12:22.240)
about what does the word science mean?
Lex Fridman (12:24.200)
But I think I would just describe myself as curious
Lex Fridman (12:27.600)
and I hope that that curiosity is contagious.
Lex Fridman (12:29.920)
So to you, the scientific method
Lex Fridman (12:31.840)
is deeply connected to science
Michael Stevens (12:33.720)
because your curiosity took you to asking questions.
Lex Fridman (12:38.280)
To me, asking a good question, even if you feel,
Michael Stevens (12:43.440)
society feels that it's not a question
Lex Fridman (12:45.400)
within the reach of science currently.
Michael Stevens (12:47.320)
To me, asking the question is the biggest step
Lex Fridman (12:51.320)
of the scientific process.
Michael Stevens (12:53.320)
The scientific method is the second part
Lex Fridman (12:57.240)
and that may be what traditionally is called science,
Lex Fridman (12:59.400)
but to me, asking the questions,
Lex Fridman (13:00.840)
being brave enough to ask the questions,
Michael Stevens (13:03.000)
being curious and not constrained
Lex Fridman (13:05.000)
by what you're supposed to think is just true,
Lex Fridman (13:09.880)
what it means to be a scientist to me.
Lex Fridman (13:11.560)
It's certainly a huge part of what it means to be a human.
Lex Fridman (13:16.380)
If I were to say, you know what?
Lex Fridman (13:17.520)
I don't believe in forces.
Michael Stevens (13:19.080)
I think that when I push on a massive object,
Lex Fridman (13:22.120)
a ghost leaves my body and enters the object I'm pushing
Lex Fridman (13:25.680)
and these ghosts happen to just get really lazy
Lex Fridman (13:28.040)
when they're around massive things
Lex Fridman (13:29.760)
and that's why F equals MA.
Lex Fridman (13:32.640)
Oh, and by the way, the laziness of the ghost
Michael Stevens (13:34.360)
is in proportion to the mass of the object.
Lex Fridman (13:36.320)
So boom, prove me wrong.
Michael Stevens (13:37.760)
Every experiment, well, you can never find the ghost.
Lex Fridman (13:41.060)
And so none of that theory is scientific,
Lex Fridman (13:45.880)
but once I start saying, can I see the ghost?
Lex Fridman (13:49.380)
Why should there be a ghost?
Lex Fridman (13:50.880)
And if there aren't ghosts, what might I expect?
Lex Fridman (13:53.100)
And I start to do different tests to see,
Lex Fridman (13:56.540)
is this falsifiable?
Lex Fridman (13:59.120)
Are there things that should happen if there are ghosts
Lex Fridman (14:01.520)
or are there things that shouldn't happen?
Lex Fridman (14:02.740)
And do they, you know, what do I observe?
Michael Stevens (14:05.120)
Now I'm thinking scientifically.
Lex Fridman (14:06.920)
I don't think of science as, wow, a picture of a black hole.
Michael Stevens (14:10.960)
That's just a photograph.
Lex Fridman (14:12.240)
That's an image.
Michael Stevens (14:13.060)
That's data.
Lex Fridman (14:13.900)
That's a sensory and perception experience.
Michael Stevens (14:16.480)
Science is how we got that and how we understand it
Lex Fridman (14:19.640)
and how we believe in it
Lex Fridman (14:20.680)
and how we reduce our uncertainty around what it means.
Lex Fridman (14:24.040)
But I would say I'm deeply within the scientific community
Lex Fridman (14:28.260)
and I'm sometimes disheartened by the elitism
Lex Fridman (14:31.600)
of the thinking, sort of not allowing yourself
Michael Stevens (14:34.640)
to think outside the box.
Lex Fridman (14:36.280)
So allowing the possibility
Michael Stevens (14:37.880)
of going against the conventions of science,
Lex Fridman (14:40.040)
I think is a beautiful part of some
Michael Stevens (14:43.920)
of the greatest scientists in history.
Lex Fridman (14:46.280)
I don't know, I'm impressed by scientists every day
Lex Fridman (14:49.840)
and revolutions in our knowledge of the world occur
Lex Fridman (14:58.480)
only under very special circumstances.
Michael Stevens (15:00.760)
It is very scary to challenge conventional thinking
Lex Fridman (15:05.680)
and risky because let's go back to elitism and ego, right?
Lex Fridman (15:10.440)
If you just say, you know what?
Lex Fridman (15:11.440)
I believe in the spirits of my body
Lex Fridman (15:14.000)
and all forces are actually created by invisible creatures
Lex Fridman (15:17.900)
that transfer themselves between objects.
Michael Stevens (15:22.360)
If you ridicule every other theory
Lex Fridman (15:26.680)
and say that you're correct,
Michael Stevens (15:28.800)
then ego gets involved and you just don't go anywhere.
Lex Fridman (15:31.680)
But fundamentally the question of well, what is a force
Michael Stevens (15:36.800)
is incredibly important.
Lex Fridman (15:38.560)
We need to have that conversation,
Lex Fridman (15:40.040)
but it needs to be done in this very political way
Lex Fridman (15:42.640)
of like, let's be respectful of everyone
Lex Fridman (15:44.640)
and let's realize that we're all learning together
Lex Fridman (15:46.920)
and not shutting out other people.
Lex Fridman (15:49.000)
And so when you look at a lot of revolutionary ideas,
Lex Fridman (15:54.720)
they were not accepted right away.
Michael Stevens (15:57.460)
And, you know, Galileo had a couple of problems
Lex Fridman (16:00.560)
with the authorities and later thinkers, Descartes,
Michael Stevens (16:04.800)
was like, all right, look, I kind of agree with Galileo,
Lex Fridman (16:06.980)
but I'm gonna have to not say that.
Michael Stevens (16:11.380)
I'll have to create and invent and write different things
Lex Fridman (16:13.740)
that keep me from being in trouble,
Lex Fridman (16:15.100)
but we still slowly made progress.
Lex Fridman (16:17.320)
Revolutions are difficult in all forms
Lex Fridman (16:19.240)
and certainly in science.
Lex Fridman (16:20.480)
Before we get to AI, on topic of revolutionary ideas,
Michael Stevens (16:23.840)
let me ask on a Reddit AMA, you said that is the earth flat
Lex Fridman (16:28.840)
is one of the favorite questions you've ever answered,
Michael Stevens (16:31.600)
speaking of revolutionary ideas.
Lex Fridman (16:33.640)
So your video on that, people should definitely watch,
Michael Stevens (16:37.080)
is really fascinating.
Lex Fridman (16:39.760)
Can you elaborate why you enjoyed
Lex Fridman (16:41.660)
answering this question so much?
Lex Fridman (16:43.800)
Yeah, well, it's a long story.
Michael Stevens (16:45.620)
I remember a long time ago,
Lex Fridman (16:49.380)
I was living in New York at the time,
Lex Fridman (16:50.940)
so it had to have been like 2009 or something.
Lex Fridman (16:54.000)
I visited the Flat Earth forums
Lex Fridman (16:57.600)
and this was before the Flat Earth theories
Lex Fridman (17:00.280)
became as sort of mainstream as they are.
Michael Stevens (17:03.160)
Sorry to ask the dumb question, forums, online forums.
Lex Fridman (17:06.720)
Yeah, the Flat Earth Society,
Michael Stevens (17:09.040)
I don't know if it's.com or.org, but I went there
Lex Fridman (17:11.200)
and I was reading their ideas
Lex Fridman (17:14.200)
and how they responded to typical criticisms of,
Lex Fridman (17:17.880)
well, the earth isn't flat because what about this?
Lex Fridman (17:20.280)
And I could not tell, and I mentioned this in my video,
Lex Fridman (17:23.760)
I couldn't tell how many of these community members
Michael Stevens (17:28.640)
actually believe the earth was flat or we're just trolling.
Lex Fridman (17:32.400)
And I realized that the fascinating thing is,
Lex Fridman (17:36.320)
how do we know anything?
Lex Fridman (17:38.480)
And what makes for a good belief
Lex Fridman (17:41.640)
versus a maybe not so tenable or good belief?
Lex Fridman (17:45.240)
And so that's really what my video
Michael Stevens (17:47.560)
about earth being flat is about.
Lex Fridman (17:49.920)
It's about, look, there are a lot of reasons
Michael Stevens (17:52.320)
that the earth is probably not flat,
Lex Fridman (17:57.000)
but a Flat Earth believer can respond
Michael Stevens (18:00.600)
to every single one of them, but it's all in an ad hoc way.
Lex Fridman (18:04.120)
And all of these, all of their rebuttals
Michael Stevens (18:05.760)
aren't necessarily gonna form
Lex Fridman (18:07.040)
a cohesive noncontradictory whole.
Lex Fridman (18:10.760)
And I believe that's the episode
Lex Fridman (18:12.520)
where I talk about Occam's razor
Lex Fridman (18:14.960)
and Newton's flaming laser sword.
Lex Fridman (18:17.400)
And then I say, well, you know what, wait a second.
Michael Stevens (18:19.480)
We know that space contracts as you move.
Lex Fridman (18:25.040)
And so to a particle moving near the speed of light
Michael Stevens (18:27.200)
towards earth, earth would be flattened
Lex Fridman (18:29.560)
in the direction of that particles travel.
Lex Fridman (18:32.200)
So to them, earth is flat.
Lex Fridman (18:35.520)
Like we need to be really generous to even wild ideas
Michael Stevens (18:41.000)
because they're all thinking,
Lex Fridman (18:43.800)
they're all the communication of ideas.
Lex Fridman (18:45.840)
And what else can it mean to be a human?
Lex Fridman (18:48.240)
Yeah, and I think I'm a huge fan
Michael Stevens (18:50.960)
of the Flat Earth theory, quote unquote,
Lex Fridman (18:54.880)
in the sense that to me it feels harmless
Michael Stevens (18:57.520)
to explore some of the questions
Lex Fridman (18:59.000)
of what it means to believe something,
Lex Fridman (19:00.480)
what it means to explore the edge of science and so on.
Lex Fridman (19:05.000)
Cause it's a harm, it's a, to me,
Michael Stevens (19:07.160)
nobody gets hurt whether the earth is flat or round,
Lex Fridman (19:09.680)
not literally, but I mean intellectually
Michael Stevens (19:11.840)
when we're just having a conversation.
Lex Fridman (19:13.360)
That said, again, to elitism,
Michael Stevens (19:15.760)
I find that scientists roll their eyes
Lex Fridman (19:18.640)
way too fast on the Flat Earth.
Michael Stevens (19:21.400)
The kind of dismissal that I see to this even notion,
Lex Fridman (19:25.520)
they haven't like sat down and say,
Lex Fridman (19:27.760)
what are the arguments that are being proposed?
Lex Fridman (19:30.120)
And this is why these arguments are incorrect.
Lex Fridman (19:32.600)
So that should be something
Lex Fridman (19:35.040)
that scientists should always do,
Michael Stevens (19:37.480)
even to the most sort of ideas that seem ridiculous.
Lex Fridman (19:42.160)
So I like this as almost, it's almost my test
Michael Stevens (19:45.880)
when I ask people what they think about Flat Earth theory,
Lex Fridman (19:48.440)
to see how quickly they roll their eyes.
Michael Stevens (19:51.080)
Well, yeah, I mean, let me go on record
Lex Fridman (19:53.880)
and say that the earth is not flat.
Michael Stevens (19:58.400)
It is a three dimensional spheroid.
Lex Fridman (20:02.040)
However, I don't know that and it has not been proven.
Michael Stevens (20:07.000)
Science doesn't prove anything.
Lex Fridman (20:08.800)
It just reduces uncertainty.
Lex Fridman (20:10.680)
Could the earth actually be flat?
Lex Fridman (20:13.960)
Extremely unlikely, extremely unlikely.
Lex Fridman (20:19.040)
And so it is a ridiculous notion
Lex Fridman (20:21.640)
if we care about how probable and certain our ideas might be.
Lex Fridman (20:26.680)
But I think it's incredibly important
Lex Fridman (20:28.400)
to talk about science in that way
Lex Fridman (20:32.120)
and to not resort to, well, it's true.
Lex Fridman (20:35.280)
It's true in the same way that a mathematical theorem
Michael Stevens (20:39.880)
is true.
Lex Fridman (20:41.280)
And I think we're kind of like being pretty pedantic
Michael Stevens (20:46.520)
about defining this stuff.
Lex Fridman (20:48.400)
But like, sure, I could take a rocket ship out
Lex Fridman (20:51.680)
and I could orbit earth and look at it
Lex Fridman (20:53.680)
and it would look like a ball, right?
Lex Fridman (20:56.880)
But I still can't prove that I'm not living in a simulation,
Lex Fridman (20:59.360)
that I'm not a brain in a vat,
Michael Stevens (21:00.520)
that this isn't all an elaborate ruse
Lex Fridman (21:02.640)
created by some technologically advanced
Michael Stevens (21:04.600)
extraterrestrial civilization.
Lex Fridman (21:06.520)
So there's always some doubt and that's fine.
Michael Stevens (21:11.000)
That's exciting.
Lex Fridman (21:12.280)
And I think that kind of doubt, practically speaking,
Michael Stevens (21:14.840)
is useful when you start talking about quantum mechanics
Lex Fridman (21:17.720)
or string theory, sort of, it helps.
Michael Stevens (21:20.360)
To me, that kind of adds a little spice
Lex Fridman (21:23.200)
into the thinking process of scientists.
Michael Stevens (21:26.440)
So, I mean, just as a thought experiment,
Lex Fridman (21:30.040)
your video kind of, okay, say the earth is flat.
Lex Fridman (21:33.400)
What would the forces when you walk about this flat earth
Lex Fridman (21:36.640)
feel like to the human?
Michael Stevens (21:38.360)
That's a really nice thought experiment to think about.
Lex Fridman (21:40.600)
Right, because what's really nice about it
Michael Stevens (21:42.440)
is that it's a funny thought experiment,
Lex Fridman (21:45.400)
but you actually wind up accidentally learning
Michael Stevens (21:48.040)
a whole lot about gravity and about relativity
Lex Fridman (21:51.640)
and geometry.
Lex Fridman (21:53.240)
And I think that's really the goal of what I'm doing.
Lex Fridman (21:56.280)
I'm not trying to like convince people
Michael Stevens (21:57.640)
that the earth is round.
Lex Fridman (21:58.840)
I feel like you either believe that it is or you don't
Lex Fridman (22:01.280)
and like, that's, you know, how can I change that?
Lex Fridman (22:04.680)
What I can do is change how you think
Lex Fridman (22:06.920)
and how you are introduced to important concepts.
Lex Fridman (22:10.920)
Like, well, how does gravity operate?
Michael Stevens (22:13.760)
Oh, it's all about the center of mass of an object.
Lex Fridman (22:16.480)
So right, on a sphere, we're all pulled towards the middle,
Michael Stevens (22:19.480)
essentially the centroid geometrically,
Lex Fridman (22:21.440)
but on a disc, ooh, you're gonna be pulled at a weird angle
Michael Stevens (22:24.560)
if you're out near the edge.
Lex Fridman (22:25.920)
And that stuff's fascinating.
Michael Stevens (22:28.400)
Yeah, and to me, that was, that particular video
Lex Fridman (22:34.520)
opened my eyes even more to what gravity is.
Michael Stevens (22:37.520)
It's just a really nice visualization tool of,
Lex Fridman (22:40.040)
because you always imagine gravity with spheres,
Michael Stevens (22:43.080)
with masses that are spheres.
Lex Fridman (22:44.600)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (22:45.440)
And imagining gravity on masses that are not spherical,
Lex Fridman (22:48.280)
some other shape, but in here, a plate, a flat object,
Michael Stevens (22:53.400)
is really interesting.
Lex Fridman (22:54.240)
It makes you really kind of visualize
Michael Stevens (22:56.280)
in a three dimensional way the force of gravity.
Lex Fridman (22:57.800)
Yeah, even if a disc the size of Earth would be impossible,
Michael Stevens (23:05.880)
I think anything larger than like the moon basically
Lex Fridman (23:09.040)
needs to be a sphere because gravity will round it out.
Lex Fridman (23:15.240)
So you can't have a teacup the size of Jupiter, right?
Lex Fridman (23:18.120)
There's a great book about the teacup in the universe
Michael Stevens (23:21.040)
that I highly recommend.
Lex Fridman (23:22.920)
I don't remember the author.
Michael Stevens (23:24.720)
I forget her name, but it's a wonderful book.
Lex Fridman (23:26.800)
So look it up.
Michael Stevens (23:28.200)
I think it's called Teacup in the Universe.
Lex Fridman (23:30.200)
Just to link on this point briefly,
Lex Fridman (23:32.680)
your videos are generally super, people love them, right?
Lex Fridman (23:37.120)
If you look at the sort of number of likes versus dislikes
Michael Stevens (23:39.600)
is this measure of YouTube, right, is incredible.
Lex Fridman (23:43.140)
And as do I.
Lex Fridman (23:45.240)
But this particular flat Earth video
Lex Fridman (23:48.160)
has more dislikes than usual.
Lex Fridman (23:51.800)
What do you, on that topic in general,
Lex Fridman (23:55.320)
what's your sense, how big is the community,
Michael Stevens (23:58.800)
not just who believes in flat Earth,
Lex Fridman (24:00.740)
but sort of the anti scientific community
Michael Stevens (24:03.720)
that naturally distrust scientists in a way
Lex Fridman (24:08.200)
that's not an open minded way,
Michael Stevens (24:12.200)
like really just distrust scientists
Lex Fridman (24:13.720)
like they're bought by some kind of mechanism
Michael Stevens (24:17.040)
of some kind of bigger system
Lex Fridman (24:18.880)
that's trying to manipulate human beings.
Lex Fridman (24:21.080)
What's your sense of the size of that community?
Lex Fridman (24:24.040)
You're one of the sort of great educators in the world
Michael Stevens (24:28.960)
that educates people on the exciting power of science.
Lex Fridman (24:34.000)
So you're kind of up against this community.
Lex Fridman (24:38.080)
What's your sense of it?
Lex Fridman (24:39.960)
I really have no idea.
Michael Stevens (24:41.960)
I haven't looked at the likes and dislikes
Lex Fridman (24:44.200)
on the flat Earth video.
Lex Fridman (24:45.320)
And so I would wonder if it has a greater percentage
Lex Fridman (24:49.100)
of dislikes than usual,
Michael Stevens (24:51.340)
is that because of people disliking it
Lex Fridman (24:53.520)
because they think that it's a video
Michael Stevens (24:56.720)
about Earth being flat and they find that ridiculous
Lex Fridman (25:01.260)
and they dislike it without even really watching much?
Michael Stevens (25:04.200)
Do they wish that I was more like dismissive
Lex Fridman (25:07.360)
of flat Earth theories?
Michael Stevens (25:08.560)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (25:09.760)
That's possible too.
Michael Stevens (25:10.600)
I know there are a lot of response videos
Lex Fridman (25:12.080)
that kind of go through the episode and are pro flat Earth,
Lex Fridman (25:18.600)
but I don't know if there's a larger community
Lex Fridman (25:21.860)
of unorthodox thinkers today
Michael Stevens (25:25.120)
than there have been in the past.
Lex Fridman (25:27.440)
And I just wanna not lose them.
Michael Stevens (25:29.960)
I want them to keep listening and thinking
Lex Fridman (25:32.580)
and by calling them all idiots or something,
Lex Fridman (25:36.640)
that does no good because how idiotic are they really?
Lex Fridman (25:41.020)
I mean, the Earth isn't a sphere at all.
Michael Stevens (25:45.300)
We know that it's an oblate spheroid
Lex Fridman (25:47.720)
and that in and of itself is really interesting.
Lex Fridman (25:50.340)
And I investigated that in which way is down
Lex Fridman (25:52.240)
where I'm like, really down does not point
Michael Stevens (25:54.200)
towards the center of the Earth.
Lex Fridman (25:56.240)
It points in different direction,
Michael Stevens (25:58.920)
depending on what's underneath you and what's above you
Lex Fridman (26:01.640)
and what's around you.
Michael Stevens (26:02.480)
The whole universe is tugging on me.
Lex Fridman (26:06.000)
And then you also show that gravity is non uniform
Michael Stevens (26:10.080)
across the globe.
Lex Fridman (26:11.680)
Like if you, there's this I guess thought experiment
Michael Stevens (26:14.400)
if you build a bridge all the way across the Earth
Lex Fridman (26:19.400)
and then just knock out its pillars, what would happen?
Lex Fridman (26:23.440)
And you describe how it would be like a very chaotic,
Lex Fridman (26:27.080)
unstable thing that's happening
Michael Stevens (26:28.960)
because gravity is non uniform throughout the Earth.
Lex Fridman (26:31.760)
Yeah, in small spaces, like the ones we work in,
Michael Stevens (26:36.620)
we can essentially assume that gravity is uniform,
Lex Fridman (26:39.320)
but it's not.
Michael Stevens (26:40.880)
It is weaker the further you are from the Earth.
Lex Fridman (26:43.040)
And it also is going to be,
Michael Stevens (26:47.080)
it's radially pointed towards the middle of the Earth.
Lex Fridman (26:50.060)
So a really large object will feel tidal forces
Michael Stevens (26:54.160)
because of that non uniformness.
Lex Fridman (26:55.640)
And we can take advantage of that with satellites, right?
Michael Stevens (26:58.500)
Gravitational induced torque.
Lex Fridman (27:00.280)
It's a great way to align your satellite
Michael Stevens (27:01.680)
without having to use fuel or any kind of engine.
Lex Fridman (27:05.560)
So let's jump back to it, artificial intelligence.
Michael Stevens (27:08.320)
What's your thought of the state of where we are at
Lex Fridman (27:11.180)
currently with artificial intelligence
Lex Fridman (27:12.920)
and what do you think it takes to build human level
Lex Fridman (27:15.880)
or superhuman level intelligence?
Michael Stevens (27:17.960)
I don't know what intelligence means.
Lex Fridman (27:20.400)
That's my biggest question at the moment.
Lex Fridman (27:22.840)
And I think it's because my instinct is always to go,
Lex Fridman (27:25.080)
well, what are the foundations here of our discussion?
Lex Fridman (27:28.000)
What does it mean to be intelligent?
Lex Fridman (27:31.080)
How do we measure the intelligence of an artificial machine
Lex Fridman (27:35.320)
or a program or something?
Lex Fridman (27:37.480)
Can we say that humans are intelligent?
Michael Stevens (27:39.880)
Because there's also a fascinating field
Lex Fridman (27:42.600)
of how do you measure human intelligence.
Michael Stevens (27:44.280)
Of course.
Lex Fridman (27:45.360)
But if we just take that for granted,
Michael Stevens (27:47.080)
saying that whatever this fuzzy intelligence thing
Lex Fridman (27:50.000)
we're talking about, humans kind of have it.
Lex Fridman (27:53.080)
What would be a good test for you?
Lex Fridman (27:56.680)
So during develop a test that's natural language
Lex Fridman (27:59.160)
conversation, would that impress you?
Lex Fridman (28:01.600)
A chat bot that you'd want to hang out
Lex Fridman (28:03.360)
and have a beer with for a bunch of hours
Lex Fridman (28:06.600)
or have dinner plans with.
Lex Fridman (28:08.360)
Is that a good test, natural language conversation?
Lex Fridman (28:10.240)
Is there something else that would impress you?
Lex Fridman (28:12.260)
Or is that also too difficult to think about?
Lex Fridman (28:13.640)
Oh yeah, I'm pretty much impressed by everything.
Michael Stevens (28:16.120)
I think that if there was a chat bot
Lex Fridman (28:20.320)
that was like incredibly, I don't know,
Michael Stevens (28:23.360)
really had a personality.
Lex Fridman (28:24.460)
And if I didn't be the Turing test, right?
Michael Stevens (28:27.940)
Like if I'm unable to tell that it's not another person
Lex Fridman (28:33.360)
but then I was shown a bunch of wires
Lex Fridman (28:36.560)
and mechanical components.
Lex Fridman (28:39.060)
And it was like, that's actually what you're talking to.
Michael Stevens (28:42.680)
I don't know if I would feel that guilty destroying it.
Lex Fridman (28:46.440)
I would feel guilty because clearly it's well made
Lex Fridman (28:49.240)
and it's a really cool thing.
Lex Fridman (28:51.040)
It's like destroying a really cool car or something
Lex Fridman (28:53.800)
but I would not feel like I was a murderer.
Lex Fridman (28:56.280)
So yeah, at what point would I start to feel that way?
Lex Fridman (28:58.800)
And this is such a subjective psychological question.
Lex Fridman (29:02.680)
If you give it movement or if you have it act as though
Michael Stevens (29:07.680)
or perhaps really feel pain as I destroy it
Lex Fridman (29:11.840)
and scream and resist, then I'd feel bad.
Michael Stevens (29:15.640)
Yeah, it's beautifully put.
Lex Fridman (29:16.680)
And let's just say act like it's a pain.
Lex Fridman (29:20.480)
So if you just have a robot that not screams,
Lex Fridman (29:25.640)
just like moans in pain if you kick it,
Michael Stevens (29:28.440)
that immediately just puts it in a class
Lex Fridman (29:30.920)
that we humans, it becomes, we anthropomorphize it.
Michael Stevens (29:35.280)
It almost immediately becomes human.
Lex Fridman (29:37.920)
So that's a psychology question
Michael Stevens (29:39.320)
as opposed to sort of a physics question.
Lex Fridman (29:40.920)
Right, I think that's a really good instinct to have.
Michael Stevens (29:43.080)
If the robot.
Lex Fridman (29:45.720)
Screams.
Michael Stevens (29:46.560)
Screams and moans, even if you don't believe
Lex Fridman (29:50.160)
that it has the mental experience,
Michael Stevens (29:52.640)
the qualia of pain and suffering,
Lex Fridman (29:55.280)
I think it's still a good instinct to say,
Michael Stevens (29:56.760)
you know what, I'd rather not hurt it.
Lex Fridman (29:59.960)
The problem is that instinct can get us in trouble
Michael Stevens (30:02.560)
because then robots can manipulate that.
Lex Fridman (30:05.560)
And there's different kinds of robots.
Michael Stevens (30:08.240)
There's robots like the Facebook and the YouTube algorithm
Lex Fridman (30:10.640)
that recommends the video,
Lex Fridman (30:11.920)
and they can manipulate in the same kind of way.
Lex Fridman (30:14.440)
Well, let me ask you just to stick
Michael Stevens (30:16.240)
on artificial intelligence for a second.
Lex Fridman (30:17.840)
Do you have worries about existential threats from AI
Michael Stevens (30:21.720)
or existential threats from other technologies
Lex Fridman (30:23.680)
like nuclear weapons that could potentially destroy life
Lex Fridman (30:27.720)
on earth or damage it to a very significant degree?
Lex Fridman (30:31.200)
Yeah, of course I do.
Michael Stevens (30:32.280)
Especially the weapons that we create.
Lex Fridman (30:35.280)
There's all kinds of famous ways to think about this.
Lex Fridman (30:38.080)
And one is that, wow, what if we don't see
Lex Fridman (30:41.440)
advanced alien civilizations because of the danger
Lex Fridman (30:46.800)
of technology?
Lex Fridman (30:50.600)
What if we reach a point,
Lex Fridman (30:51.800)
and I think there's a channel, Thoughty2,
Lex Fridman (30:55.000)
geez, I wish I remembered the name of the channel,
Lex Fridman (30:57.400)
but he delves into this kind of limit
Lex Fridman (30:59.960)
of maybe once you discover radioactivity and its power,
Michael Stevens (31:04.960)
you've reached this important hurdle.
Lex Fridman (31:07.160)
And the reason that the skies are so empty
Michael Stevens (31:09.400)
is that no one's ever managed to survive as a civilization
Lex Fridman (31:13.880)
once they have that destructive power.
Lex Fridman (31:16.840)
And when it comes to AI, I'm not really very worried
Lex Fridman (31:22.320)
because I think that there are plenty of other people
Michael Stevens (31:24.760)
that are already worried enough.
Lex Fridman (31:26.440)
And oftentimes these worries are just,
Michael Stevens (31:30.520)
they just get in the way of progress.
Lex Fridman (31:32.880)
And they're questions that we should address later.
Lex Fridman (31:37.680)
And I think I talk about this in my interview
Lex Fridman (31:41.960)
with the self driving autonomous vehicle guy,
Michael Stevens (31:47.440)
as I think it was a bonus scene
Lex Fridman (31:48.640)
from the trolley problem episode.
Lex Fridman (31:52.080)
And I'm like, wow, what should a car do
Lex Fridman (31:54.200)
if this really weird contrived scenario happens
Lex Fridman (31:56.960)
where it has to swerve and save the driver, but kill a kid?
Lex Fridman (32:00.120)
And he's like, well, what would a human do?
Lex Fridman (32:03.440)
And if we resist technological progress
Lex Fridman (32:07.200)
because we're worried about all of these little issues,
Michael Stevens (32:10.360)
then it gets in the way.
Lex Fridman (32:11.960)
And we shouldn't avoid those problems,
Lex Fridman (32:14.320)
but we shouldn't allow them to be stumbling blocks
Lex Fridman (32:16.760)
to advancement.
Lex Fridman (32:18.920)
So the folks like Sam Harris or Elon Musk
Lex Fridman (32:22.440)
are saying that we're not worried enough.
Lex Fridman (32:24.520)
So the worry should not paralyze technological progress,
Lex Fridman (32:28.520)
but we're sort of marching,
Michael Stevens (32:30.760)
technology is marching forward without the key scientists,
Lex Fridman (32:35.800)
the developing of technology,
Michael Stevens (32:37.880)
worrying about the overnight having some effects
Lex Fridman (32:42.080)
that would be very detrimental to society.
Lex Fridman (32:45.200)
So to push back on your thought of the idea
Lex Fridman (32:49.520)
that there's enough people worrying about it,
Michael Stevens (32:51.240)
Elon Musk says, there's not enough people
Lex Fridman (32:53.040)
worrying about it.
Michael Stevens (32:54.640)
That's the kind of balance is,
Lex Fridman (32:58.960)
it's like folks who are really focused
Michael Stevens (33:01.240)
on nuclear deterrence are saying
Lex Fridman (33:03.680)
there's not enough people worried
Lex Fridman (33:04.840)
about nuclear deterrence, right?
Lex Fridman (33:06.080)
So it's an interesting question of what is a good threshold
Lex Fridman (33:10.220)
of people to worry about these?
Lex Fridman (33:12.600)
And if it's too many people that are worried, you're right.
Michael Stevens (33:15.160)
It'll be like the press would over report on it
Lex Fridman (33:18.720)
and there'll be technological, halt technological progress.
Michael Stevens (33:21.840)
If not enough, then we can march straight ahead
Lex Fridman (33:24.440)
into that abyss that human beings might be destined for
Michael Stevens (33:29.840)
with the progress of technology.
Lex Fridman (33:31.320)
Yeah, I don't know what the right balance is
Michael Stevens (33:33.680)
of how many people should be worried
Lex Fridman (33:35.720)
and how worried should they be,
Lex Fridman (33:36.960)
but we're always worried about new technology.
Lex Fridman (33:40.440)
We know that Plato was worried about the written word.
Michael Stevens (33:42.960)
He was like, we shouldn't teach people to write
Lex Fridman (33:45.000)
because then they won't use their minds to remember things.
Michael Stevens (33:48.360)
There have been concerns over technology
Lex Fridman (33:51.240)
and its advancement since the beginning of recorded history.
Lex Fridman (33:55.120)
And so, I think, however,
Lex Fridman (33:58.880)
these conversations are really important to have
Michael Stevens (34:01.060)
because again, we learn a lot about ourselves.
Lex Fridman (34:03.360)
If we're really scared of some kind of AI
Michael Stevens (34:06.200)
like coming into being that is conscious or whatever
Lex Fridman (34:09.360)
and can self replicate, we already do that every day.
Michael Stevens (34:13.120)
It's called humans being born.
Lex Fridman (34:14.560)
They're not artificial, they're humans,
Lex Fridman (34:17.200)
but they're intelligent and I don't wanna live in a world
Lex Fridman (34:20.140)
where we're worried about babies being born
Lex Fridman (34:21.940)
because what if they become evil?
Lex Fridman (34:24.200)
Right.
Lex Fridman (34:25.040)
What if they become mean people?
Lex Fridman (34:25.920)
What if they're thieves?
Lex Fridman (34:27.680)
Maybe we should just like, what, not have babies born?
Lex Fridman (34:31.760)
Like maybe we shouldn't create AI.
Michael Stevens (34:33.980)
It's like, we will want to have safeguards in place
Lex Fridman (34:39.720)
in the same way that we know, look,
Michael Stevens (34:41.740)
a kid could be born that becomes some kind of evil person,
Lex Fridman (34:44.400)
but we have laws, right?
Lex Fridman (34:47.880)
And it's possible that with advanced genetics in general,
Lex Fridman (34:51.600)
be able to, it's a scary thought to say that,
Michael Stevens (34:58.400)
this, my child, if born would have an 83% chance
Lex Fridman (35:05.200)
of being a psychopath, right?
Michael Stevens (35:08.720)
Like being able to, if it's something genetic,
Lex Fridman (35:11.500)
if there's some sort of, and what to use that information,
Lex Fridman (35:15.040)
what to do with that information
Lex Fridman (35:16.200)
is a difficult ethical thought.
Michael Stevens (35:20.000)
Yeah, and I'd like to find an answer that isn't,
Lex Fridman (35:22.040)
well, let's not have them live.
Michael Stevens (35:24.940)
You know, I'd like to find an answer that is,
Lex Fridman (35:26.860)
well, all human life is worthy.
Lex Fridman (35:30.340)
And if you have an 83% chance of becoming a psychopath,
Lex Fridman (35:33.640)
well, you still deserve dignity.
Lex Fridman (35:38.140)
And you still deserve to be treated well.
Lex Fridman (35:42.400)
You still have rights.
Michael Stevens (35:43.360)
At least at this part of the world, at least in America,
Lex Fridman (35:45.980)
there's a respect for individual life in that way.
Michael Stevens (35:49.540)
That's, well, to me, but again, I'm in this bubble,
Lex Fridman (35:54.040)
is a beautiful thing.
Lex Fridman (35:55.760)
But there's other cultures where individual human life
Lex Fridman (35:59.020)
is not that important, where a society,
Lex Fridman (36:02.720)
so I was born in the Soviet Union,
Lex Fridman (36:04.760)
where the strength of nation and society together
Michael Stevens (36:07.440)
is more important than any one particular individual.
Lex Fridman (36:10.280)
So it's an interesting also notion,
Michael Stevens (36:12.080)
the stories we tell ourselves.
Lex Fridman (36:13.540)
I like the one where individuals matter,
Lex Fridman (36:16.000)
but it's unclear that that was what the future holds.
Lex Fridman (36:19.200)
Well, yeah, and I mean, let me even throw this out.
Lex Fridman (36:21.480)
Like, what is artificial intelligence?
Lex Fridman (36:23.840)
How can it be artificial?
Michael Stevens (36:25.200)
I really think that we get pretty obsessed
Lex Fridman (36:28.000)
and stuck on the idea that there is some thing
Michael Stevens (36:30.740)
that is a wild human, a pure human organism
Lex Fridman (36:34.320)
without technology.
Lex Fridman (36:35.780)
But I don't think that's a real thing.
Lex Fridman (36:37.540)
I think that humans and human technology are one organism.
Lex Fridman (36:42.780)
Look at my glasses, okay?
Lex Fridman (36:44.500)
If an alien came down and saw me,
Michael Stevens (36:47.860)
would they necessarily know that this is an invention,
Lex Fridman (36:50.620)
that I don't grow these organically from my body?
Michael Stevens (36:53.220)
They wouldn't know that right away.
Lex Fridman (36:55.460)
And the written word, and spoons, and cups,
Michael Stevens (37:00.460)
these are all pieces of technology.
Lex Fridman (37:02.460)
We are not alone as an organism.
Lex Fridman (37:06.700)
And so the technology we create,
Lex Fridman (37:09.060)
whether it be video games or artificial intelligence
Michael Stevens (37:11.980)
that can self replicate and hate us,
Lex Fridman (37:14.020)
it's actually all the same organism.
Lex Fridman (37:16.780)
When you're in a car, where do you end in the car begin?
Lex Fridman (37:19.220)
It seems like a really easy question to answer,
Lex Fridman (37:21.100)
but the more you think about it,
Lex Fridman (37:22.660)
the more you realize, wow,
Michael Stevens (37:23.900)
we are in this symbiotic relationship with our inventions.
Lex Fridman (37:27.940)
And there are plenty of people who are worried about it.
Lex Fridman (37:30.020)
And there should be,
Lex Fridman (37:30.860)
but it's inevitable.
Lex Fridman (37:32.820)
And I think that even just us think of ourselves
Lex Fridman (37:35.900)
as individual intelligences may be silly notion
Michael Stevens (37:41.380)
because it's much better to think
Lex Fridman (37:44.540)
of the entirety of human civilization.
Michael Stevens (37:46.780)
All living organisms on earth is a single living organism.
Lex Fridman (37:50.740)
As a single intelligent creature,
Michael Stevens (37:52.180)
because you're right, everything's intertwined.
Lex Fridman (37:54.340)
Everything is deeply connected.
Lex Fridman (37:57.100)
So we mentioned, you know,
Lex Fridman (37:57.940)
Musk, so you're a curious lover of science.
Lex Fridman (38:03.140)
What do you think of the efforts that Elon Musk is doing
Lex Fridman (38:06.860)
with space exploration, with electric vehicles,
Michael Stevens (38:10.100)
with autopilot, sort of getting into the space
Lex Fridman (38:13.620)
of autonomous vehicles, with boring under LA
Lex Fridman (38:17.300)
and a Neuralink trying to communicate brain machine
Lex Fridman (38:21.740)
interfaces, communicate between machines
Lex Fridman (38:24.260)
and human brains?
Lex Fridman (38:28.540)
Well, it's really inspiring.
Michael Stevens (38:30.140)
I mean, look at the fandom that he's amassed.
Lex Fridman (38:34.860)
It's not common for someone like that
Michael Stevens (38:39.220)
to have such a following.
Lex Fridman (38:40.620)
And so it's... Engineering nerd.
Michael Stevens (38:42.420)
Yeah, so it's really exciting.
Lex Fridman (38:44.580)
But I also think that a lot of responsibility
Michael Stevens (38:46.420)
comes with that kind of power.
Lex Fridman (38:47.660)
So like if I met him, I would love to hear how he feels
Michael Stevens (38:50.860)
about the responsibility he has.
Lex Fridman (38:53.420)
When there are people who are such a fan of your ideas
Lex Fridman (38:59.980)
and your dreams and share them so closely with you,
Lex Fridman (39:04.620)
you have a lot of power.
Lex Fridman (39:06.420)
And he didn't always have that, you know?
Lex Fridman (39:09.660)
He wasn't born as Elon Musk.
Michael Stevens (39:11.980)
Well, he was, but well, he was named that later.
Lex Fridman (39:13.980)
But the point is that I wanna know the psychology
Michael Stevens (39:18.980)
of becoming a figure like him.
Lex Fridman (39:23.860)
Well, I don't even know how to phrase the question right,
Lex Fridman (39:25.660)
but it's a question about what do you do
Lex Fridman (39:27.980)
when you're following, your fans become so large
Michael Stevens (39:35.780)
that it's almost bigger than you.
Lex Fridman (39:37.980)
And how do you responsibly manage that?
Lex Fridman (39:41.020)
And maybe it doesn't worry him at all.
Lex Fridman (39:42.180)
And that's fine too.
Lex Fridman (39:43.500)
But I'd be really curious.
Lex Fridman (39:45.500)
And I think there are a lot of people that go through this
Michael Stevens (39:47.660)
when they realize, whoa, there are a lot of eyes on me.
Lex Fridman (39:50.380)
There are a lot of people who really take what I say
Michael Stevens (39:53.900)
very earnestly and take it to heart and will defend me.
Lex Fridman (39:57.700)
And whew, that's, that's, that can be dangerous.
Lex Fridman (40:04.260)
And you have to be responsible with it.
Lex Fridman (40:07.500)
Both in terms of impact on society
Lex Fridman (40:09.260)
and psychologically for the individual,
Lex Fridman (40:11.260)
just the burden psychologically on Elon?
Lex Fridman (40:15.020)
Yeah, yeah, how does he think about that?
Lex Fridman (40:18.820)
Part of his persona.
Michael Stevens (40:21.180)
Well, let me throw that right back at you
Lex Fridman (40:23.340)
because in some ways you're just a funny guy
Michael Stevens (40:28.540)
that gotten a humongous following,
Lex Fridman (40:31.660)
a funny guy with a curiosity.
Michael Stevens (40:34.900)
You've got a huge following.
Lex Fridman (40:36.540)
How do you psychologically deal with the responsibility?
Michael Stevens (40:40.060)
In many ways you have a reach
Lex Fridman (40:41.980)
in many ways bigger than Elon Musk.
Lex Fridman (40:44.540)
What is your, what is the burden that you feel in educating
Lex Fridman (40:49.340)
being one of the biggest educators in the world
Michael Stevens (40:51.980)
where everybody's listening to you
Lex Fridman (40:53.500)
and actually everybody, like most of the world
Michael Stevens (40:58.380)
that's uses YouTube for educational material,
Lex Fridman (41:01.060)
trust you as a source of good, strong scientific thinking.
Michael Stevens (41:07.540)
It's a burden and I try to approach it
Lex Fridman (41:11.020)
with a lot of humility and sharing.
Michael Stevens (41:16.020)
Like I'm not out there doing
Lex Fridman (41:18.580)
a lot of scientific experiments.
Michael Stevens (41:20.300)
I am sharing the work of real scientists
Lex Fridman (41:23.180)
and I'm celebrating their work and the way that they think
Lex Fridman (41:26.420)
and the power of curiosity.
Lex Fridman (41:29.500)
But I wanna make it clear at all times that like,
Michael Stevens (41:32.200)
look, we don't know all the answers
Lex Fridman (41:35.260)
and I don't think we're ever going to reach a point
Michael Stevens (41:37.660)
where we're like, wow, and there you go.
Lex Fridman (41:39.500)
That's the universe.
Michael Stevens (41:40.620)
It's this equation, you plug in some conditions or whatever
Lex Fridman (41:43.820)
and you do the math
Lex Fridman (41:44.660)
and you know what's gonna happen tomorrow.
Lex Fridman (41:46.100)
I don't think we're ever gonna reach that point,
Lex Fridman (41:47.920)
but I think that there is a tendency
Lex Fridman (41:51.920)
to sometimes believe in science and become elitist
Lex Fridman (41:56.100)
and become, I don't know, hard when in reality
Lex Fridman (41:58.860)
it should humble you and make you feel smaller.
Michael Stevens (42:01.780)
I think there's something very beautiful
Lex Fridman (42:03.080)
about feeling very, very small and very weak
Lex Fridman (42:07.420)
and to feel that you need other people.
Lex Fridman (42:10.940)
So I try to keep that in mind and say,
Michael Stevens (42:13.220)
look, thanks for watching.
Lex Fridman (42:14.340)
Vsauce is not, I'm not Vsauce, you are.
Michael Stevens (42:16.700)
When I start the episodes, I say,
Lex Fridman (42:18.080)
hey, Vsauce, Michael here.
Michael Stevens (42:20.500)
Vsauce and Michael are actually a different thing
Lex Fridman (42:22.260)
in my mind.
Michael Stevens (42:23.100)
I don't know if that's always clear,
Lex Fridman (42:24.380)
but yeah, I have to approach it that way
Michael Stevens (42:26.900)
because it's not about me.
Lex Fridman (42:30.080)
Yeah, so it's not even,
Michael Stevens (42:31.860)
you're not feeling the responsibility.
Lex Fridman (42:33.620)
You're just sort of plugging into this big thing
Michael Stevens (42:36.100)
that is scientific exploration of our reality
Lex Fridman (42:40.020)
and you're a voice that represents a bunch,
Lex Fridman (42:42.660)
but you're just plugging into this big Vsauce ball
Lex Fridman (42:47.660)
that others, millions of others are plugged into.
Michael Stevens (42:49.860)
Yeah, and I'm just hoping to encourage curiosity
Lex Fridman (42:53.060)
and responsible thinking
Lex Fridman (42:56.380)
and an embracement of doubt
Lex Fridman (43:01.980)
and being okay with that.
Lex Fridman (43:05.020)
So I'm next week talking to Christos Gudrow.
Lex Fridman (43:08.200)
I'm not sure if you're familiar who he is,
Lex Fridman (43:09.980)
but he's the VP of engineering,
Lex Fridman (43:11.660)
head of the quote unquote YouTube algorithm
Michael Stevens (43:14.660)
or the search and discovery.
Lex Fridman (43:16.140)
So let me ask, first high level,
Lex Fridman (43:20.180)
do you have a question for him
Lex Fridman (43:25.100)
that if you can get an honest answer that you would ask,
Lex Fridman (43:28.860)
but more generally,
Lex Fridman (43:30.140)
how do you think about the YouTube algorithm
Michael Stevens (43:32.620)
that drives some of the motivation behind,
Lex Fridman (43:36.060)
no, some of the design decisions you make
Michael Stevens (43:38.900)
as you ask and answer some of the questions you do,
Lex Fridman (43:42.220)
how would you improve this algorithm in your mind in general?
Lex Fridman (43:45.140)
So just what would you ask him?
Lex Fridman (43:47.540)
And outside of that,
Lex Fridman (43:49.500)
how would you like to see the algorithm improve?
Lex Fridman (43:52.700)
Well, I think of the algorithm as a mirror.
Michael Stevens (43:56.780)
It reflects what people put in
Lex Fridman (43:58.940)
and we don't always like what we see in that mirror.
Michael Stevens (44:01.140)
From the individual mirror
Lex Fridman (44:02.780)
to the individual mirror to the society.
Michael Stevens (44:05.420)
Both, in the aggregate,
Lex Fridman (44:07.020)
it's reflecting back what people on average want to watch.
Lex Fridman (44:11.380)
And when you see things being recommended to you,
Lex Fridman (44:15.340)
it's reflecting back what it thinks you want to see.
Lex Fridman (44:19.220)
And specifically, I would guess that it's
Lex Fridman (44:22.300)
not just what you want to see,
Lex Fridman (44:23.560)
but what you will click on
Lex Fridman (44:25.560)
and what you will watch some of and stay on YouTube
Michael Stevens (44:30.560)
because of.
Lex Fridman (44:32.480)
I don't think that, this is all me guessing,
Lex Fridman (44:34.860)
but I don't think that YouTube cares
Lex Fridman (44:38.980)
if you only watch like a second of a video,
Michael Stevens (44:41.700)
as long as the next thing you do is open another video.
Lex Fridman (44:45.100)
If you close the app or close the site,
Michael Stevens (44:49.380)
that's a problem for them
Lex Fridman (44:50.780)
because they're not a subscription platform.
Michael Stevens (44:52.940)
They're not like, look,
Lex Fridman (44:53.780)
you're giving us 20 bucks a month no matter what,
Lex Fridman (44:56.120)
so who cares?
Lex Fridman (44:57.620)
They need you to watch and spend time there and see ads.
Lex Fridman (45:02.100)
So one of the things I'm curious about
Lex Fridman (45:03.620)
whether they do consider longer term sort of develop,
Michael Stevens (45:09.980)
your longer term development as a human being,
Lex Fridman (45:12.600)
which I think ultimately will make you feel better
Michael Stevens (45:15.100)
about using YouTube in the longterm
Lex Fridman (45:17.460)
and allowing you to stick with it for longer.
Michael Stevens (45:19.920)
Because even if you feed the dopamine rush in the short term
Lex Fridman (45:23.300)
and you keep clicking on cat videos,
Michael Stevens (45:25.580)
eventually you sort of wake up like from a drug
Lex Fridman (45:28.980)
and say, I need to quit this.
Lex Fridman (45:30.860)
So I wonder how much you're trying to optimize
Lex Fridman (45:32.700)
for the longterm because when I look at the,
Michael Stevens (45:35.820)
your videos aren't exactly sort of, no offense,
Lex Fridman (45:39.420)
but they're not the most clickable.
Michael Stevens (45:41.740)
They're both the most clickable
Lex Fridman (45:44.180)
and I feel I watched the entire thing
Lex Fridman (45:47.260)
and I feel a better human after I watched it, right?
Lex Fridman (45:49.640)
So like they're not just optimizing for the clickability
Lex Fridman (45:54.640)
because I hope, so my thought is how do you think of it?
Lex Fridman (45:59.880)
And does it affect your own content?
Michael Stevens (46:02.240)
Like how deep you go,
Lex Fridman (46:03.280)
how profound you explore the directions and so on.
Michael Stevens (46:07.000)
I've been really lucky in that I don't worry too much
Lex Fridman (46:11.500)
about the algorithm.
Michael Stevens (46:12.520)
I mean, look at my thumbnails.
Lex Fridman (46:13.800)
I don't really go too wild with them.
Lex Fridman (46:17.200)
And with minefield where I'm in partnership with YouTube
Lex Fridman (46:19.800)
on the thumbnails, I'm often like, let's pull this back.
Michael Stevens (46:22.400)
Let's be mysterious.
Lex Fridman (46:23.960)
But usually I'm just trying to do
Lex Fridman (46:25.640)
what everyone else is not doing.
Lex Fridman (46:27.520)
So if everyone's doing crazy Photoshop kind of thumbnails,
Lex Fridman (46:30.960)
I'm like, what if the thumbnails just a line?
Lex Fridman (46:34.120)
And what if the title is just a word?
Lex Fridman (46:37.760)
And I kind of feel like all of the Vsauce channels
Lex Fridman (46:41.160)
have cultivated an audience that expects that.
Lex Fridman (46:43.160)
And so they would rather Jake make a video
Lex Fridman (46:45.340)
that's just called stains than one called,
Michael Stevens (46:48.440)
I explored stains, shocking.
Lex Fridman (46:50.920)
But there are other audiences out there that want that.
Lex Fridman (46:53.300)
And I think most people kind of want
Lex Fridman (46:57.080)
what you see the algorithm favoring,
Michael Stevens (46:58.800)
which is mainstream traditional celebrity
Lex Fridman (47:02.240)
and news kind of information.
Michael Stevens (47:03.640)
I mean, that's what makes YouTube really different
Lex Fridman (47:05.200)
than other streaming platforms.
Lex Fridman (47:06.680)
No one's like, what's going on in the world?
Lex Fridman (47:08.800)
I'll open up Netflix to find out.
Lex Fridman (47:10.520)
But you do open up Twitter to find that out.
Lex Fridman (47:12.720)
You open up Facebook and you can open up YouTube
Michael Stevens (47:14.840)
because you'll see that the trending videos
Lex Fridman (47:16.260)
are like what happened amongst the traditional mainstream
Michael Stevens (47:20.240)
people in different industries.
Lex Fridman (47:22.120)
And that's what's being shown.
Lex Fridman (47:24.040)
And it's not necessarily YouTube saying,
Lex Fridman (47:27.560)
we want that to be what you see.
Michael Stevens (47:29.240)
It's that that's what people click on.
Lex Fridman (47:31.400)
When they see Ariana Grande, you know,
Michael Stevens (47:33.320)
reads a love letter from like her high school sweetheart,
Lex Fridman (47:36.280)
they're like, I wanna see that.
Lex Fridman (47:38.000)
And when they see a video from me
Lex Fridman (47:39.320)
that's got some lines in math and it's called law and causes
Michael Stevens (47:41.800)
they're like, well, I mean, I'm just on the bus.
Lex Fridman (47:45.940)
Like I don't have time to dive into a whole lesson.
Michael Stevens (47:48.640)
So, you know, before you get super mad at YouTube,
Lex Fridman (47:52.360)
you should say, really,
Michael Stevens (47:53.640)
they're just reflecting back human behavior.
Lex Fridman (47:55.520)
Is there something you would improve about the algorithm
Michael Stevens (48:00.240)
knowing of course, that as far as we're concerned,
Lex Fridman (48:02.760)
it's a black box, so we don't know how it works.
Michael Stevens (48:04.600)
Right, and I don't think that even anyone at YouTube
Lex Fridman (48:06.760)
really knows what it's doing.
Michael Stevens (48:07.920)
They know what they've tweaked, but then it learns.
Lex Fridman (48:09.800)
I think that it learns and it decides how to behave.
Lex Fridman (48:13.800)
And sometimes the YouTube employees are left going,
Lex Fridman (48:16.640)
I don't know.
Michael Stevens (48:17.740)
Maybe we should like change the value
Lex Fridman (48:19.600)
of how much it, you know, worries about watch time.
Lex Fridman (48:22.640)
And maybe it should worry more about something else.
Lex Fridman (48:24.800)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (48:25.640)
But I mean, I would like to see,
Lex Fridman (48:28.400)
I don't know what they're doing and not doing.
Michael Stevens (48:30.680)
Well, is there a conversation
Lex Fridman (48:32.740)
that you think they should be having just internally,
Lex Fridman (48:35.720)
whether they're having it or not?
Lex Fridman (48:37.300)
Is there something,
Lex Fridman (48:38.920)
should they be thinking about the longterm future?
Lex Fridman (48:41.140)
Should they be thinking about educational content
Lex Fridman (48:44.440)
and whether that's educating about what just happened
Lex Fridman (48:48.160)
in the world today, news or educational content,
Michael Stevens (48:50.680)
like what you're providing,
Lex Fridman (48:51.520)
which is asking big sort of timeless questions
Michael Stevens (48:54.360)
about how the way the world works.
Lex Fridman (48:56.580)
Well, it's interesting.
Lex Fridman (48:58.120)
What should they think about?
Lex Fridman (48:59.400)
Because it's called YouTube, not our tube.
Lex Fridman (49:02.620)
And that's why I think they have
Lex Fridman (49:04.680)
so many phenomenal educational creators.
Michael Stevens (49:08.360)
You don't have shows like Three Blue One Brown
Lex Fridman (49:11.720)
or Physics Girl or Looking Glass Universe or Up and Atom
Michael Stevens (49:14.960)
or Brain Scoop or, I mean, I could go on and on.
Lex Fridman (49:18.720)
They aren't on Amazon Prime and Netflix
Lex Fridman (49:21.200)
and they don't have commissioned shows from those platforms.
Lex Fridman (49:24.000)
It's all organically happening
Michael Stevens (49:25.520)
because there are people out there
Lex Fridman (49:26.660)
that want to share their passion for learning,
Michael Stevens (49:30.140)
that wanna share their curiosity.
Lex Fridman (49:32.520)
And YouTube could promote those kinds of shows more,
Lex Fridman (49:37.440)
but first of all, they probably wouldn't get as many clicks
Lex Fridman (49:43.240)
and YouTube needs to make sure that the average user
Michael Stevens (49:45.340)
is always clicking and staying on the site.
Lex Fridman (49:47.720)
They could still promote it more for the good of society,
Lex Fridman (49:51.060)
but then we're making some really weird claims
Lex Fridman (49:52.720)
about what's good for society
Michael Stevens (49:53.960)
because I think that cat videos
Lex Fridman (49:55.600)
are also an incredibly important part
Michael Stevens (49:58.040)
of what it means to be a human.
Lex Fridman (50:00.360)
I mentioned this quote before from Unumuno about,
Michael Stevens (50:02.860)
look, I've seen a cat like estimate distances
Lex Fridman (50:05.400)
and calculate a jump more often than I've seen a cat cry.
Lex Fridman (50:09.440)
And so things that play with our emotions
Lex Fridman (50:12.440)
and make us feel things can be cheesy and can feel cheap,
Lex Fridman (50:15.360)
but like, man, that's very human.
Lex Fridman (50:18.000)
And so even the dumbest vlog is still so important
Michael Stevens (50:23.760)
that I don't think I have a better claim to take its spot
Lex Fridman (50:27.380)
than it has to have that spot.
Michael Stevens (50:29.840)
It puts a mirror to us, the beautiful parts,
Lex Fridman (50:32.600)
the ugly parts, the shallow parts, the deep parts.
Michael Stevens (50:35.880)
You're right.
Lex Fridman (50:36.720)
What I would like to see is,
Michael Stevens (50:39.840)
I miss the days when engaging with content on YouTube
Lex Fridman (50:43.360)
helped push it into my subscribers timelines.
Michael Stevens (50:47.620)
It used to be that when I liked a video,
Lex Fridman (50:49.560)
say from Veritasium, it would show up in the feed
Michael Stevens (50:54.620)
on the front page of the app or the website of my subscribers.
Lex Fridman (50:58.340)
And I knew that if I liked a video,
Michael Stevens (51:00.440)
I could send it 100,000 views or more.
Lex Fridman (51:03.480)
That no longer is true,
Lex Fridman (51:05.360)
but I think that was a good user experience.
Lex Fridman (51:07.300)
When I subscribe to someone, when I'm following them,
Michael Stevens (51:09.800)
I want to see more of what they like.
Lex Fridman (51:13.060)
I want them to also curate the feed for me.
Lex Fridman (51:15.360)
And I think that Twitter and Facebook are doing that
Lex Fridman (51:17.900)
in also some ways that are kind of annoying,
Lex Fridman (51:20.320)
but I would like that to happen more.
Lex Fridman (51:22.340)
And I think we would see communities being stronger
Michael Stevens (51:25.160)
on YouTube if it was that way instead of YouTube going,
Lex Fridman (51:27.300)
well, technically Michael liked this Veritasium video,
Lex Fridman (51:29.760)
but people are way more likely to click on Carpool Karaoke.
Lex Fridman (51:33.620)
So I don't even care who they are, just give them that.
Michael Stevens (51:36.200)
Not saying anything against Carpool Karaoke,
Lex Fridman (51:38.960)
that is a extremely important part of our society,
Lex Fridman (51:43.260)
what it means to be a human on earth, you know, but.
Lex Fridman (51:46.780)
I'll say it sucks, but.
Michael Stevens (51:48.440)
Yeah, but a lot of people would disagree with you
Lex Fridman (51:51.380)
and they should be able to see as much of that as they want.
Lex Fridman (51:53.860)
And I think even people who don't think they like it
Lex Fridman (51:55.660)
should still be really aware of it
Michael Stevens (51:57.100)
because it's such an important thing.
Lex Fridman (51:59.400)
It's such an influential thing.
Lex Fridman (52:00.900)
But yeah, I just wish that like new channels I discover
Lex Fridman (52:03.260)
and that I subscribe to,
Michael Stevens (52:04.340)
I wish that my subscribers found out about that
Lex Fridman (52:06.940)
because especially in the education community,
Michael Stevens (52:10.020)
a rising tide floats all boats.
Lex Fridman (52:11.580)
If you watch a video from Numberphile,
Michael Stevens (52:14.020)
you're just more likely to want to watch an episode from me,
Lex Fridman (52:16.740)
whether it be on Vsauce1 or Ding.
Michael Stevens (52:18.540)
It's not competitive in the way that traditional TV was
Lex Fridman (52:21.840)
where it's like, well, if you tune into that show,
Michael Stevens (52:23.180)
it means you're not watching mine
Lex Fridman (52:24.540)
because they both air at the same time.
Lex Fridman (52:26.140)
So helping each other out through collaborations
Lex Fridman (52:29.340)
takes a lot of work,
Lex Fridman (52:30.180)
but just through engaging, commenting on their videos,
Lex Fridman (52:32.820)
liking their videos, subscribing to them, whatever,
Michael Stevens (52:36.700)
that I would love to see become easier and more powerful.
Lex Fridman (52:41.500)
So a quick and impossibly deep question,
Michael Stevens (52:46.060)
last question about mortality.
Lex Fridman (52:48.980)
You've spoken about death as an interesting topic.
Lex Fridman (52:52.580)
Do you think about your own mortality?
Lex Fridman (52:55.940)
Yeah, every day, it's really scary.
Lex Fridman (52:59.740)
So what do you think is the meaning of life
Lex Fridman (53:04.020)
that mortality makes very explicit?
Lex Fridman (53:07.340)
So why are you here on earth, Michael?
Lex Fridman (53:12.620)
What's the point of this whole thing?
Lex Fridman (53:18.100)
What does mortality in the context of the whole universe
Lex Fridman (53:23.100)
make you realize about yourself?
Michael Stevens (53:26.400)
Just you, Michael Stevens.
Lex Fridman (53:29.140)
Well, it makes me realize
Michael Stevens (53:31.300)
that I am destined to become a notion.
Lex Fridman (53:35.620)
I'm destined to become a memory and we can extend life.
Michael Stevens (53:39.620)
I think there's really exciting things being done
Lex Fridman (53:42.900)
to extend life,
Lex Fridman (53:43.860)
but we still don't know how to protect you
Lex Fridman (53:47.100)
from some accident that could happen,
Michael Stevens (53:48.860)
some unforeseen thing.
Lex Fridman (53:50.300)
Maybe we could save my connectome
Lex Fridman (53:54.140)
and recreate my consciousness digitally,
Lex Fridman (53:56.580)
but even that could be lost
Michael Stevens (54:00.340)
if it's stored on a physical medium or something.
Lex Fridman (54:02.580)
So basically, I just think that embracing
Lex Fridman (54:07.780)
and realizing how cool it is,
Lex Fridman (54:09.020)
that someday I will just be an idea.
Lex Fridman (54:11.540)
And there won't be a Michael anymore
Lex Fridman (54:13.380)
that can be like, no, that's not what I meant.
Michael Stevens (54:16.180)
It'll just be what people,
Lex Fridman (54:17.540)
they have to guess what I meant.
Lex Fridman (54:19.620)
And they'll remember me
Lex Fridman (54:23.140)
and how I live on as that memory
Michael Stevens (54:25.780)
will maybe not even be who I want it to be.
Lex Fridman (54:29.600)
But there's something powerful about that.
Lex Fridman (54:31.940)
And there's something powerful
Lex Fridman (54:32.900)
about letting future people run the show themselves.
Michael Stevens (54:38.980)
I think I'm glad to get out of their way at some point
Lex Fridman (54:41.980)
and say, all right, it's your world now.
Lex Fridman (54:43.660)
So you, the physical entity, Michael,
Lex Fridman (54:47.300)
have ripple effects in the space of ideas
Michael Stevens (54:50.260)
that far outlives you in ways that you can't control,
Lex Fridman (54:54.260)
but it's nevertheless fascinating to think,
Michael Stevens (54:56.100)
I mean, especially with you,
Lex Fridman (54:57.580)
you can imagine an alien species
Michael Stevens (54:59.180)
when they finally arrive and destroy all of us
Lex Fridman (55:01.740)
would watch your videos to try to figure out
Lex Fridman (55:04.580)
what were the questions that these people.
Lex Fridman (55:05.980)
But even if they didn't,
Michael Stevens (55:08.620)
I still think that there will be ripples.
Lex Fridman (55:11.380)
Like when I say memory,
Michael Stevens (55:13.420)
I don't specifically mean people remember my name
Lex Fridman (55:16.580)
and my birth date and like there's a photo of me
Michael Stevens (55:18.940)
on Wikipedia, like all that can be lost,
Lex Fridman (55:20.860)
but I still would hope that people ask questions
Lex Fridman (55:23.980)
and teach concepts in some of the ways
Lex Fridman (55:26.460)
that I have found useful and satisfying.
Michael Stevens (55:28.340)
Even if they don't know that I was the one
Lex Fridman (55:29.780)
who tried to popularize it, that's fine.
Lex Fridman (55:32.580)
But if Earth was completely destroyed,
Lex Fridman (55:35.260)
like burnt to a crisp, everything on it today,
Lex Fridman (55:39.340)
what would, the universe wouldn't care.
Lex Fridman (55:42.700)
Like Jupiter's not gonna go, oh no, and that could happen.
Lex Fridman (55:49.980)
So we do however have the power to launch things
Lex Fridman (55:55.100)
into space to try to extend how long our memory exists.
Lex Fridman (56:02.900)
And what I mean by that is,
Lex Fridman (56:04.620)
we are recording things about the world
Lex Fridman (56:06.900)
and we're learning things and writing stories
Lex Fridman (56:08.420)
and all of this and preserving that is truly
Lex Fridman (56:13.020)
what I think is the essence of being a human.
Lex Fridman (56:16.580)
We are autobiographers of the universe
Lex Fridman (56:20.580)
and we're really good at it.
Lex Fridman (56:21.660)
We're better than fossils.
Michael Stevens (56:22.940)
We're better than light spectrum.
Lex Fridman (56:25.500)
We're better than any of that.
Michael Stevens (56:26.740)
We collect much more detailed memories
Lex Fridman (56:29.980)
of what's happening, much better data.
Lex Fridman (56:32.820)
And so that should be our legacy.
Lex Fridman (56:37.300)
And I hope that that's kind of mine too
Michael Stevens (56:40.140)
in terms of people remembering something
Lex Fridman (56:42.420)
or having some kind of effect.
Lex Fridman (56:44.780)
But even if I don't, you can't not have an effect.
Lex Fridman (56:47.860)
This is not me feeling like,
Michael Stevens (56:49.180)
I hope that I have this powerful legacy.
Lex Fridman (56:50.820)
It's like, no matter who you are, you will.
Lex Fridman (56:53.820)
But you also have to embrace the fact
Lex Fridman (56:57.700)
that that impact might look really small and that's okay.
Michael Stevens (57:01.340)
One of my favorite quotes is from Tessa the Durbervilles.
Lex Fridman (57:04.460)
And it's along the lines of the measure of your life
Michael Stevens (57:08.220)
depends on not your external displacement
Lex Fridman (57:10.940)
but your subjective experience.
Michael Stevens (57:13.100)
If I am happy and those that I love are happy,
Lex Fridman (57:16.700)
can that be enough?
Michael Stevens (57:17.700)
Because if so, excellent.
Lex Fridman (57:21.340)
I think there's no better place to end it, Michael.
Michael Stevens (57:23.460)
Thank you so much.
Lex Fridman (57:24.300)
It was an honor to meet you.
Michael Stevens (57:25.140)
Thanks for talking to me.
Lex Fridman (57:25.980)
Thank you, it was a pleasure.
Michael Stevens (57:27.660)
Thanks for listening to this conversation
Lex Fridman (57:29.180)
with Michael Stevens.
Lex Fridman (57:30.460)
And thank you to our presenting sponsor, Cash App.
Lex Fridman (57:33.340)
Download it, use code LexPodcast,
Michael Stevens (57:35.940)
you'll get $10 and $10 will go to First,
Lex Fridman (57:38.980)
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Michael Stevens (57:41.300)
hundreds of thousands of young minds
Lex Fridman (57:43.300)
to learn, to dream of engineering our future.
Michael Stevens (57:47.020)
If you enjoy this podcast, subscribe on YouTube,
Lex Fridman (57:49.940)
give it five stars on Apple Podcast,
Michael Stevens (57:51.940)
support it on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter.
Lex Fridman (57:55.500)
And now, let me leave you with some words of wisdom
Michael Stevens (57:58.580)
from Albert Einstein.
Lex Fridman (58:00.780)
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Michael Stevens (58:03.980)
Curiosity has its own reason for existence.
Lex Fridman (58:06.900)
One cannot help but be in awe
Michael Stevens (58:09.220)
when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity,
Lex Fridman (58:11.740)
of life, the marvelous structure of reality.
Michael Stevens (58:14.980)
It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend
Lex Fridman (58:18.100)
a little of this mystery every day.
Michael Stevens (58:20.140)
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
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