Andrew Huberman: Focus, Stress, Relationships, and Friendship

Lex Fridman (01:19.760)

I think we should make a deal.

Andrew Huberman (01:21.520)

I was just talking to the guys,

Lex Fridman (01:23.040)

this is a show called Louie, I don't know if you know it.

Lex Fridman (01:25.560)

And yeah, with Louie CK.

Lex Fridman (01:27.680)

And there's this thing called Bang Bang,

Andrew Huberman (01:30.320)

which people that are probably watching

Lex Fridman (01:31.640)

know exactly what I'm talking about.

Andrew Huberman (01:33.520)

It's this worst possible thing you can do

Lex Fridman (01:35.520)

in terms of meals, which is you go to a restaurant,

Andrew Huberman (01:39.000)

do a full meal, and then you go to another restaurant

Lex Fridman (01:42.480)

and do a full meal and you pet me.

Andrew Huberman (01:44.240)

You, exactly.

Lex Fridman (01:46.480)

So they go Mexican, Italian, sushi, pizza, barbecue,

Andrew Huberman (01:51.040)

IHOP, that one is disgusting.

Lex Fridman (01:52.960)

This kind of thing reminds me of the joy of food.

Andrew Huberman (01:57.880)

Last time we were hanging out,

Lex Fridman (01:59.740)

we went to see Joe Do Comedy

Lex Fridman (02:01.920)

and then we went to eat Russian food.

Lex Fridman (02:04.680)

And it was a particularly fun experience

Andrew Huberman (02:08.480)

to go to a Russian restaurant.

Lex Fridman (02:10.880)

I was the only person there that didn't speak Russian

Lex Fridman (02:14.380)

and eat Russian food with you.

Lex Fridman (02:16.260)

And because I felt walking in, they trusted you.

Andrew Huberman (02:20.460)

They didn't trust me.

Lex Fridman (02:21.840)

Yeah, the funny thing about the people there,

Andrew Huberman (02:24.800)

they were talking to you in Russian

Lex Fridman (02:26.640)

and then they refused to sort of switch to English,

Andrew Huberman (02:29.160)

even though they understood you speak no Russian.

Lex Fridman (02:31.280)

This is Russian House in Austin, by the way.

Andrew Huberman (02:34.080)

Anyway, by way of question, what's the worst or the best,

Lex Fridman (02:38.120)

depending on your perspective, cheap meal?

Andrew Huberman (02:40.160)

Let's call it a pigging out meal,

Lex Fridman (02:41.560)

but it could be a cheap meal that you've ever had

Andrew Huberman (02:45.220)

or you want to have that's like on the bucket list

Lex Fridman (02:48.640)

or something that's in the past,

Andrew Huberman (02:50.120)

where you did something like a Bang Bang,

Lex Fridman (02:52.360)

which is like, you're talking about

Andrew Huberman (02:54.160)

multiple thousands of calories

Lex Fridman (02:56.840)

that you just feel horrible about yourself

Lex Fridman (02:59.120)

but you still keep eating because it's delicious,

Lex Fridman (03:01.600)

but also great company.

Andrew Huberman (03:04.000)

Something about the atmosphere is just right.

Lex Fridman (03:07.360)

Screw the diet, screw all the things,

Andrew Huberman (03:11.360)

like you should be doing,

Lex Fridman (03:12.480)

but just throw it all out the window.

Andrew Huberman (03:14.540)

I've done that several times.

Lex Fridman (03:16.980)

Yeah, I don't do this anymore,

Lex Fridman (03:18.160)

but the entire time I was a postdoc, so five years,

Lex Fridman (03:21.280)

and the entire time I was a pretenured professor,

Lex Fridman (03:23.660)

so five years, so I basically followed

Lex Fridman (03:27.460)

the Tim Ferriss slow carb diet,

Andrew Huberman (03:29.680)

which is, people can look it up, but it worked really well.

Lex Fridman (03:32.960)

It was basically some good animal proteins,

Andrew Huberman (03:37.480)

fish and meat and things like that.

Lex Fridman (03:38.680)

Why slow carb?

Andrew Huberman (03:39.520)

Because slow carb is like low glycemic stuff,

Lex Fridman (03:41.620)

it's mostly lentils and beans and things and vegetables,

Andrew Huberman (03:44.480)

no dairy, no, anyway, but then one day.

Lex Fridman (03:48.440)

Is pasta in there?

Andrew Huberman (03:49.280)

Sorry to interrupt.

Lex Fridman (03:50.120)

No, no pasta.

Lex Fridman (03:51.200)

So it wasn't low carb, but it was low glycemic carb.

Lex Fridman (03:53.600)

And I did that and it worked terrifically well

Andrew Huberman (03:55.280)

just for energy levels,

Lex Fridman (03:56.320)

cause I want to be able to train and work.

Lex Fridman (03:57.400)

And then one day a week,

Lex Fridman (03:58.880)

you're supposed to go full cheat day.

Lex Fridman (04:02.760)

And so I would do what used to be 12 hours,

Lex Fridman (04:05.400)

but then it became 24,

Andrew Huberman (04:07.200)

you can start to redefine what the day is.

Lex Fridman (04:09.800)

And I would, and that was when Costello was pretty young

Lex Fridman (04:13.800)

and we would do it together.

Lex Fridman (04:14.920)

So I would get pizzas and croissants and donuts,

Lex Fridman (04:18.100)

and I would just do the full thing.

Lex Fridman (04:20.060)

And by the end of the day,

Andrew Huberman (04:21.640)

you don't want to look at an item of food.

Lex Fridman (04:24.000)

You're just repulsed by food.

Andrew Huberman (04:25.520)

The only modification I made was the next day,

Lex Fridman (04:27.880)

I would fast completely,

Andrew Huberman (04:29.360)

just to avoid the gastric distress of eating anything.

Lex Fridman (04:32.360)

And so I would do them on Sundays

Lex Fridman (04:34.200)

and then Mondays I'd fast all day.

Lex Fridman (04:35.520)

And then by Tuesday, I felt pretty good again,

Lex Fridman (04:37.580)

but Sunday and Monday,

Lex Fridman (04:38.720)

or you just feel like you're sliding down the slope

Andrew Huberman (04:42.680)

of just blood sugar disaster.

Lex Fridman (04:44.880)

Terrible idea or a good idea?

Andrew Huberman (04:46.000)

You know, at the time I enjoyed it.

Lex Fridman (04:48.160)

I love donuts, croissants, all that kind of stuff.

Andrew Huberman (04:50.300)

What's interesting is after stopping that whole protocol,

Lex Fridman (04:53.400)

now I just try and eat well each day.

Andrew Huberman (04:54.840)

Protocol.

Lex Fridman (04:55.680)

It's really a protocol.

Andrew Huberman (04:56.520)

Now I basically, I do a pseudo intermittent fasting.

Lex Fridman (04:59.240)

I'm not really strict, but I'll start at eating around 11,

Andrew Huberman (05:02.200)

eat my first meal around 11,

Lex Fridman (05:03.280)

I usually train in the morning,

Andrew Huberman (05:04.360)

eat my last bite of food somewhere around eight or nine,

Lex Fridman (05:06.520)

and I'm not super strict.

Andrew Huberman (05:07.620)

I might have some berries or something late at night.

Lex Fridman (05:09.440)

Three meals, two meals?

Andrew Huberman (05:11.160)

Two meals.

Lex Fridman (05:12.960)

And then maybe a little bit of snacking on some nuts

Andrew Huberman (05:15.280)

or something in the middle.

Lex Fridman (05:16.160)

Ever fast, 24 hour?

Andrew Huberman (05:17.720)

Never done a long fast,

Lex Fridman (05:18.900)

except when I was doing the cheat days.

Lex Fridman (05:20.800)

And then, and actually there are a couple different ways

Lex Fridman (05:24.520)

to do cheat days that were fun.

Andrew Huberman (05:25.840)

Like if you were in a new city,

Lex Fridman (05:26.920)

you could try all the restaurants that you wanted.

Andrew Huberman (05:30.520)

Yeah, and I think Tim and our mutual friend,

Lex Fridman (05:33.040)

John Romanello did a,

Andrew Huberman (05:34.440)

I think it was like a cheat day marathon where they did,

Lex Fridman (05:36.760)

you know, marathon's 26.3 miles.

Andrew Huberman (05:38.360)

They went to 26.3 different locations in New York.

Lex Fridman (05:41.680)

They put it on a map and I never took it to that extreme,

Andrew Huberman (05:44.800)

but.

Lex Fridman (05:45.640)

Wait, wait, wait.

Lex Fridman (05:46.480)

Over how many days?

Lex Fridman (05:47.500)

One day.

Andrew Huberman (05:48.340)

That was their cheat day.

Lex Fridman (05:49.160)

Why?

Andrew Huberman (05:50.000)

Just cause they were, you know.

Lex Fridman (05:50.840)

Just a little bit of something at each place.

Andrew Huberman (05:53.040)

Yeah, exactly.

Lex Fridman (05:54.320)

I mean, there are things that guys do in their thirties

Andrew Huberman (05:56.440)

that you just shouldn't do in your forties.

Lex Fridman (05:58.040)

I can say that cause I'm in my forties.

Lex Fridman (05:59.520)

And now I just try and eat well most days.

Lex Fridman (06:01.980)

And what's interesting is about 12 to 14 months ago,

Andrew Huberman (06:05.220)

I completely lost all appetite for sweets.

Lex Fridman (06:08.140)

I don't know what happened.

Andrew Huberman (06:08.980)

I still love savory food.

Lex Fridman (06:10.000)

So meat and butter and cheese,

Lex Fridman (06:12.320)

and I love vegetables too.

Lex Fridman (06:14.200)

I love fruit also, but lost all appetite.

Lex Fridman (06:16.880)

So if you put a donut in front of me or ice cream

Lex Fridman (06:18.780)

or something like that, I just,

Andrew Huberman (06:20.280)

it's almost aversive to me and I don't know what happened.

Lex Fridman (06:23.320)

I don't know what changed.

Andrew Huberman (06:24.240)

It's probably a scientific explanation.

Lex Fridman (06:25.760)

Sure.

Andrew Huberman (06:26.580)

It has to do maybe with habit.

Lex Fridman (06:27.420)

Neuron loss, dementia.

Andrew Huberman (06:28.560)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (06:29.400)

The sugar, the desire for that rush maybe is gone

Andrew Huberman (06:35.820)

from your soul.

Lex Fridman (06:37.440)

So what was the most delicious things, croissant donuts?

Lex Fridman (06:40.600)

Is there a thing that?

Lex Fridman (06:42.240)

There's a place in Portland.

Andrew Huberman (06:44.760)

I don't know if it's still open called Little T's Bakery.

Lex Fridman (06:47.800)

And they have croissants that easily rival

Andrew Huberman (06:50.780)

the croissants in Paris.

Lex Fridman (06:52.200)

People make a lot of the pastry in Paris,

Lex Fridman (06:54.680)

but it's really the bread in Paris that's amazing.

Lex Fridman (06:57.040)

We lived there when I was a kid and we did a sabbatical

Andrew Huberman (06:59.400)

there and you know, there they do the baguette,

Lex Fridman (07:01.120)

morning bake and afternoon bake.

Lex Fridman (07:02.880)

And there's nothing like the bread in Paris or the people,

Lex Fridman (07:07.000)

you know, and, but if you're in the Pacific Northwest,

Andrew Huberman (07:10.700)

you know, you can find amazing croissants there.

Lex Fridman (07:13.000)

What do you do with the croissant?

Lex Fridman (07:14.040)

What do you do with the bread?

Lex Fridman (07:15.280)

Butter or is it just?

Andrew Huberman (07:16.520)

I actually used to, I don't eat them anymore.

Lex Fridman (07:18.380)

I don't have much of an appetite for them,

Andrew Huberman (07:19.760)

even though they're not a sweet food,

Lex Fridman (07:20.840)

but I'm always putting butter on the croissant.

Andrew Huberman (07:24.000)

Butter on the butter croissant.

Lex Fridman (07:25.360)

No jam.

Andrew Huberman (07:26.200)

I would never adulterate my croissant.

Lex Fridman (07:28.480)

I have to actually be honest about this

Andrew Huberman (07:30.360)

because people talk about steak and they talk about bread

Lex Fridman (07:33.380)

with the butter.

Andrew Huberman (07:34.440)

I feel like butter is cheating.

Lex Fridman (07:35.800)

I feel like you're disrespecting the fundamental food

Andrew Huberman (07:40.060)

by adding butter.

Lex Fridman (07:41.320)

Cause butter, it's like, it's like,

Andrew Huberman (07:43.580)

it's like a elite version of ketchup.

Lex Fridman (07:47.680)

You're.

Andrew Huberman (07:48.520)

Well there we diverge because for me,

Lex Fridman (07:49.520)

bread is just a vehicle for butter.

Andrew Huberman (07:52.840)

A cracker is just a vehicle for cheese.

Lex Fridman (07:56.760)

Oh, so that's just the,

Andrew Huberman (07:57.880)

the cracker and the bread is just texture.

Lex Fridman (07:59.920)

It's just that people look at you funny

Andrew Huberman (08:01.160)

if you, if you just eat the butter straight,

Lex Fridman (08:03.240)

which occasionally I do.

Andrew Huberman (08:04.360)

I got it.

Lex Fridman (08:05.200)

So I put a little piece of bread underneath it,

Andrew Huberman (08:07.880)

not because I'm low carb, strictly low carb,

Lex Fridman (08:10.240)

but just because otherwise you get some funny looks.

Andrew Huberman (08:13.000)

That's like pasta is a vehicle for pasta sauce.

Lex Fridman (08:17.140)

It's interesting, but like Indian non bread,

Andrew Huberman (08:20.640)

you have, you have the bread.

Lex Fridman (08:23.400)

I've had a lot of soul searching

Andrew Huberman (08:25.440)

on which part of Indian is, brings me so much joy.

Lex Fridman (08:28.780)

Is it the bread or is it all the sauces

Lex Fridman (08:30.800)

that come with the bread?

Lex Fridman (08:31.680)

Well, there we diverge again,

Andrew Huberman (08:32.820)

because for whatever reason, no disrespect to anyone,

Lex Fridman (08:36.920)

but Indian food doesn't appeal to me.

Andrew Huberman (08:39.120)

Well, you're a lucky man

Lex Fridman (08:40.320)

because the number of calories in that food,

Andrew Huberman (08:43.160)

it sneaks like non bread.

Lex Fridman (08:44.800)

I don't know how non bread is made,

Lex Fridman (08:46.120)

but I think it's just soaked in oil

Lex Fridman (08:49.320)

and it just very intensely,

Andrew Huberman (08:51.800)

like the density of calories is very, very high.

Lex Fridman (08:56.320)

For me, barbecue, I would say is probably the,

Andrew Huberman (08:58.680)

that's good.

Lex Fridman (08:59.560)

Anytime I'm in Austin, I start thinking about barbecue.

Andrew Huberman (09:02.940)

I do love, you know, I do love meat.

Lex Fridman (09:04.360)

My dad's Argentine.

Andrew Huberman (09:05.240)

I mean, I love steak.

Lex Fridman (09:06.200)

I love meat.

Andrew Huberman (09:07.040)

I mean, Argentina chorizo sausage

Lex Fridman (09:09.440)

is an appetizer before you have steak.

Andrew Huberman (09:12.600)

It's meat on top of meat.

Lex Fridman (09:13.680)

And it's not just, you know, it's not just the men, right?

Andrew Huberman (09:16.000)

You see women, sometimes very petite women

Lex Fridman (09:18.380)

eating steaks that are bigger than their skull size.

Andrew Huberman (09:22.360)

You know, slowly, they eat very slowly there.

Lex Fridman (09:24.340)

And they all eat dessert too, which is interesting.

Lex Fridman (09:26.240)

And they generally do the sort of one meal per day

Lex Fridman (09:28.880)

and do that kind of real flexibly.

Andrew Huberman (09:30.520)

That's how I think about it.

Lex Fridman (09:31.700)

Cause I often eat one meal a day,

Andrew Huberman (09:32.920)

especially when I'm traveling.

Lex Fridman (09:34.200)

It feels like a cheap meal because it allows,

Andrew Huberman (09:36.640)

it gives you a bit of more freedom

Lex Fridman (09:38.800)

to just lose yourself in the quantity of the food.

Andrew Huberman (09:42.480)

I did the three day fast and I ate chicken breast,

Lex Fridman (09:46.160)

like literally chicken breast with nothing else,

Andrew Huberman (09:47.960)

just grilled.

Lex Fridman (09:48.840)

And it was the most delicious piece of meat I've ever eaten.

Lex Fridman (09:51.400)

And that, and that gives you,

Lex Fridman (09:53.560)

the problem is when you fast the three days,

Andrew Huberman (09:55.440)

you really can't pig out.

Lex Fridman (09:56.440)

You really shouldn't.

Andrew Huberman (09:57.280)

Your stomach will shrink in size already.

Lex Fridman (09:59.520)

Your gut microbiome is almost completely

Andrew Huberman (10:01.280)

depleted by fasting.

Lex Fridman (10:02.840)

A lot of people think, oh,

Andrew Huberman (10:03.680)

cleanses and fasts are great for the microbiome.

Lex Fridman (10:05.800)

They quash your microbiome.

Andrew Huberman (10:07.640)

However, when you start eating again,

Lex Fridman (10:09.680)

the microbiome comes back better

Andrew Huberman (10:11.640)

than it was before your fast.

Lex Fridman (10:13.120)

For people who don't know, Sergey and Todd are on the call.

Andrew Huberman (10:15.400)

They're kind of pulling stuff up.

Lex Fridman (10:16.960)

They just pulled up Phelps with the,

Andrew Huberman (10:19.360)

I forget how many calories he was eating, 10,000.

Lex Fridman (10:21.700)

You know what's interesting?

Andrew Huberman (10:22.540)

There's some, some cool physiology around this.

Lex Fridman (10:24.800)

The reason he needed to eat so much

Andrew Huberman (10:26.760)

is not that he was burning that many calories

Lex Fridman (10:30.040)

in pure movement.

Andrew Huberman (10:31.320)

It's that when you do exercise in water,

Lex Fridman (10:33.340)

even if it's warm water,

Andrew Huberman (10:34.680)

the heat transfer in water is greater.

Lex Fridman (10:36.520)

So you burn far more calories.

Lex Fridman (10:38.220)

And again, here, I'm admittedly lifting that

Lex Fridman (10:40.520)

from knowledge that was passed on to me by Tim Ferriss.

Andrew Huberman (10:43.240)

I didn't, so, but I checked it out

Lex Fridman (10:45.160)

and it's absolutely true.

Lex Fridman (10:46.120)

So if you exercise in water,

Lex Fridman (10:47.960)

even if it's not really cold water,

Andrew Huberman (10:49.560)

your caloric needs go way up,

Lex Fridman (10:50.680)

which is why you get out of the pool

Lex Fridman (10:52.280)

and you're often really hungry.

Lex Fridman (10:53.640)

And for fans of the Human Lab podcast,

Lex Fridman (10:56.040)

and if you're not a fan,

Lex Fridman (10:57.400)

what are you doing with your life?

Andrew Huberman (11:00.440)

You would probably chuckle at the fact

Lex Fridman (11:02.120)

that Andrew just cited his sources,

Andrew Huberman (11:04.740)

even on that statement,

Lex Fridman (11:05.940)

because you're so good at,

Andrew Huberman (11:08.120)

I don't know how your memory works,

Lex Fridman (11:09.360)

but the only person whose memory

Andrew Huberman (11:12.400)

is better than Joe Rogan is yours.

Lex Fridman (11:14.520)

But my colleagues joke,

Andrew Huberman (11:16.420)

you know, PubMed sort of scrolls through my mind.

Lex Fridman (11:20.840)

Also in science, as you know,

Andrew Huberman (11:22.580)

attribution is so baked into what we do.

Lex Fridman (11:25.560)

And I think that it's interesting

Andrew Huberman (11:27.520)

because now spending a lot of time on social media,

Lex Fridman (11:29.840)

attribution is not as common.

Andrew Huberman (11:31.760)

And, but in academia, you learn really early on

Lex Fridman (11:34.960)

that if you give a talk about your data

Lex Fridman (11:37.280)

and you cite all these amazing sources,

Lex Fridman (11:39.320)

all it does is make you look better, right?

Andrew Huberman (11:42.380)

Whereas in social media and elsewhere

Lex Fridman (11:44.520)

in the business sector,

Andrew Huberman (11:45.620)

it's almost like citing other people,

Lex Fridman (11:47.000)

people feel as if it's going to take away

Andrew Huberman (11:48.480)

some of the credit.

Lex Fridman (11:49.340)

All it does is place you in the company

Andrew Huberman (11:50.880)

of people that do really nice work.

Lex Fridman (11:52.500)

So I have tremendous,

Lex Fridman (11:53.340)

and I have genuine and tremendous respect for Tim.

Lex Fridman (11:55.680)

He's been about 10 years ahead

Andrew Huberman (11:56.960)

on a huge number of health related things

Lex Fridman (11:59.000)

and other things and extremely kind person,

Andrew Huberman (12:01.320)

very thoughtful person.

Lex Fridman (12:02.320)

So it's also just a pleasure to shine light

Andrew Huberman (12:05.080)

on other people.

Lex Fridman (12:05.920)

Yeah, well, I actually, to push back,

Andrew Huberman (12:07.480)

I know there's a culture of if you write a paper,

Lex Fridman (12:11.960)

standing on the shoulders of giants is a powerful thing,

Lex Fridman (12:15.080)

but there's also a culture of not giving credit

Lex Fridman (12:19.320)

to the strongest idea in your paper.

Lex Fridman (12:21.320)

And instead say it's kind of, or imply that it's original.

Lex Fridman (12:24.860)

There is a culture of kind of not celebrating others.

Andrew Huberman (12:28.480)

I think people get most competitive in all walks of life,

Lex Fridman (12:33.160)

but especially in science when they're,

Andrew Huberman (12:35.400)

the closer they get in the exact thing they work on.

Lex Fridman (12:39.000)

And so there's this dance,

Andrew Huberman (12:41.040)

you know, there's a few researchers

Lex Fridman (12:43.040)

in each of the individual little things that you work on.

Andrew Huberman (12:46.160)

If you're studying a particular kind of ant,

Lex Fridman (12:48.000)

you know that other asshole

Andrew Huberman (12:50.120)

that also is studying that particular ant,

Lex Fridman (12:52.560)

and then you're not going to often give credit

Andrew Huberman (12:56.080)

for the brilliant ideas that that other researcher is doing.

Lex Fridman (12:59.700)

And I think one of the things you've discovered

Lex Fridman (13:01.880)

and just as part of your nature,

Lex Fridman (13:04.280)

which is why it's really great that you have an audience

Lex Fridman (13:08.520)

and you inspire others to do the same,

Lex Fridman (13:09.800)

is you celebrate that other ant studier.

Andrew Huberman (13:12.660)

It's great and everybody wins, it raises all boats.

Lex Fridman (13:16.780)

But that initial instinct to be like,

Lex Fridman (13:19.820)

what is it in Borat?

Lex Fridman (13:21.120)

Like my neighbor gets a toaster, I get a bigger toaster.

Andrew Huberman (13:27.040)

Yeah, that mindset to, you know,

Lex Fridman (13:28.240)

it's not that I'm not competitive in certain domains,

Lex Fridman (13:31.280)

but yeah, I get great pleasure

Lex Fridman (13:33.760)

from sharing things that I find.

Lex Fridman (13:37.160)

And I think that, you know, at the end of the day,

Lex Fridman (13:40.940)

you're as strong as your community

Lex Fridman (13:43.640)

and you can build a wonderful community

Lex Fridman (13:45.920)

just by pointing out things that you love.

Andrew Huberman (13:48.760)

Like these are all just loves.

Lex Fridman (13:49.880)

I see a paper and I love it.

Andrew Huberman (13:51.600)

Only rarely do I think, oh, I wish we had done that.

Lex Fridman (13:54.080)

I usually think, fantastic,

Andrew Huberman (13:55.320)

now I can just focus on something else

Lex Fridman (13:56.680)

because they checked off that box.

Lex Fridman (13:59.320)

And by the way, you mentioned PubMed and barbecue.

Lex Fridman (14:02.000)

I should mention that I got a chance to hang out

Andrew Huberman (14:04.160)

with Rick Rubin, thanks to you.

Lex Fridman (14:06.120)

He's a friend of yours and you made the connection.

Andrew Huberman (14:07.940)

That was a huge gift to my spirit, I guess.

Lex Fridman (14:11.160)

He's a truly, truly special human being.

Lex Fridman (14:13.160)

And there's a lot I could say

Lex Fridman (14:15.560)

about why he's a special human being.

Andrew Huberman (14:17.440)

I'd love to learn how you met him,

Lex Fridman (14:19.640)

but I should also just mention on the PubMed thing,

Andrew Huberman (14:23.560)

it was so interesting talking to him about music

Lex Fridman (14:27.320)

and both on the podcast and privately

Lex Fridman (14:31.000)

and just listening to music together.

Lex Fridman (14:32.780)

Because when you mention a song,

Andrew Huberman (14:36.000)

he does this thing where he like closes his eyes

Lex Fridman (14:39.960)

and he finds that song in the album that we're talking about

Lex Fridman (14:44.120)

and he steps through the album.

Lex Fridman (14:45.880)

You could see the brain like stepping

Andrew Huberman (14:47.840)

through individual songs to find that song in the album.

Lex Fridman (14:51.200)

And there's that kind of lookup process.

Lex Fridman (14:53.080)

And then he puts himself mentally in that space

Lex Fridman (14:55.320)

of like, okay, this is, you know, whatever the album is.

Lex Fridman (14:59.800)

And not just the ones he produced,

Lex Fridman (15:01.520)

but all of these in the encyclopedia of music.

Lex Fridman (15:04.940)

And it's so interesting.

Lex Fridman (15:06.480)

It also, the thing I really love about him

Andrew Huberman (15:10.160)

is something like a calmness that radiates from him.

Lex Fridman (15:13.520)

That it's okay to close your eyes and place yourself

Andrew Huberman (15:16.680)

in the place where that album was recorded,

Lex Fridman (15:20.540)

in the feeling of that album and like that silence.

Andrew Huberman (15:24.540)

Let's go there, let's go there together.

Lex Fridman (15:26.640)

It's like Alice in Wonderland and we'll go there together.

Andrew Huberman (15:28.680)

You do a good Rick Rubin, minus the beard.

Lex Fridman (15:31.160)

Minus the beard.

Lex Fridman (15:32.000)

His beard is epic, right?

Lex Fridman (15:33.720)

You can't fake a beard like that, you know.

Lex Fridman (15:35.900)

How'd you guys meet?

Lex Fridman (15:37.240)

Yeah, well, Rick, I'm very blessed to consider a close friend.

Andrew Huberman (15:42.240)

Rick and I got introduced through a common friend

Lex Fridman (15:45.840)

during the pandemic.

Lex Fridman (15:47.320)

And we started doing some FaceTime together

Lex Fridman (15:49.660)

and just talking about things related to science and health.

Lex Fridman (15:52.000)

And I'm not a musician, I have no musical ability or talent.

Lex Fridman (15:56.020)

I have a good ability to memorize lyrics

Lex Fridman (15:58.200)

and I love lyrics and I love poetry.

Lex Fridman (16:00.280)

So I asked him a lot of questions about musicians

Andrew Huberman (16:02.740)

that I happen to love that he's worked with and knows.

Lex Fridman (16:05.420)

And so he would give me stories about musicians

Lex Fridman (16:07.840)

and I would talk to him about health.

Lex Fridman (16:10.140)

And then eventually we formed a friendship

Andrew Huberman (16:12.040)

where we would talk about any number

Lex Fridman (16:13.340)

of different topics in life.

Lex Fridman (16:15.560)

And then we started spending time together in person

Lex Fridman (16:18.720)

when he was in town or nearby.

Lex Fridman (16:21.100)

And as you now know, you know, Rick,

Lex Fridman (16:26.360)

in addition to all his incredible accomplishments,

Andrew Huberman (16:28.520)

has an incredible understanding

Lex Fridman (16:31.240)

of how to get the brain and body into state, right?

Lex Fridman (16:36.640)

And as you pointed out, he's willing to do the things

Lex Fridman (16:40.800)

that allow him to help these incredible artists

Andrew Huberman (16:43.560)

get into the best state to do their craft.

Lex Fridman (16:46.960)

And so if he needs to sit there and be quiet

Andrew Huberman (16:49.660)

with his eyes closed for a minute or two or more,

Lex Fridman (16:53.600)

he'll do that.

Andrew Huberman (16:54.880)

He has routines to allow himself to get into state.

Lex Fridman (16:57.960)

And it's really inspired me to think about states of mind

Andrew Huberman (17:01.200)

as something that, you know, we'd all love

Lex Fridman (17:02.680)

to just flip the switch and say,

Andrew Huberman (17:04.160)

we're focused or we're creative,

Lex Fridman (17:05.640)

but to actually ratchet through the challenging steps

Andrew Huberman (17:09.960)

in order to do that and to figure out

Lex Fridman (17:11.280)

what one needs to do on a regular basis

Andrew Huberman (17:14.360)

to get into a proper state.

Lex Fridman (17:16.400)

It's not just gonna come from a cup of coffee,

Andrew Huberman (17:19.360)

you know, a lamp of a particular wavelength or something.

Lex Fridman (17:22.640)

It's gonna be those things,

Lex Fridman (17:23.620)

but it's also going to be really teaching oneself

Lex Fridman (17:26.680)

how to get into proper state.

Andrew Huberman (17:28.480)

Yeah, you did an episode on hypnosis.

Lex Fridman (17:30.120)

Do you think it's a kind of self hypnosis?

Andrew Huberman (17:32.600)

Yes, I do.

Lex Fridman (17:33.920)

Because hypnosis is a, you limit the context,

Andrew Huberman (17:38.160)

you're very alert and you're very calm.

Lex Fridman (17:41.400)

And he has a number of these different practices.

Lex Fridman (17:44.360)

And so we would talk about those.

Lex Fridman (17:45.640)

And then we also have enjoyed a lot of discussions

Andrew Huberman (17:48.480)

about deep neuroscience.

Lex Fridman (17:50.220)

In fact, I introduced Rick to a friend of mine

Andrew Huberman (17:52.760)

who's a neurosurgeon and neuroscientist

Lex Fridman (17:54.920)

and they've become friendly.

Andrew Huberman (17:56.320)

You know, Rick is one of these people

Lex Fridman (17:57.520)

that he sort of defies definition, incredibly kind,

Andrew Huberman (18:00.680)

incredibly private person too.

Lex Fridman (18:02.160)

So, you know, I'm being respectful of that.

Andrew Huberman (18:04.000)

But, and then of course he's a fan of your podcast.

Lex Fridman (18:07.520)

And so when I learned that,

Andrew Huberman (18:09.040)

I just made natural sense to introduce you.

Lex Fridman (18:11.900)

And I know he really enjoyed meeting you.

Lex Fridman (18:13.780)

And we talk about you a lot.

Lex Fridman (18:15.440)

And of course, in a positive light, you know,

Andrew Huberman (18:17.600)

I think his dedication to getting into these states of mind

Lex Fridman (18:21.880)

and his willingness to do that

Andrew Huberman (18:22.920)

has completely transformed my routines around life.

Lex Fridman (18:26.400)

Like for instance,

Andrew Huberman (18:27.240)

before doing a very long podcast recording,

Lex Fridman (18:29.360)

the solo ones, which often take me several hours or more,

Andrew Huberman (18:32.280)

six hours to record, sometimes more, sometimes less.

Lex Fridman (18:35.300)

I realized that there's a certain brain state

Andrew Huberman (18:37.440)

associated with that.

Lex Fridman (18:38.320)

So I have to really limit the kind of interactions I have

Andrew Huberman (18:41.040)

for the two hours before.

Lex Fridman (18:42.520)

I actually walk and talk out loud through my neighborhood.

Andrew Huberman (18:45.680)

People think I'm crazy,

Lex Fridman (18:46.960)

but I live in a neighborhood

Andrew Huberman (18:47.920)

where there are a lot of crazy creatives anyway.

Lex Fridman (18:50.880)

So.

Lex Fridman (18:51.720)

Are you saying you're not crazy?

Lex Fridman (18:52.560)

Well, at least not institutionally defined as crazy yet.

Andrew Huberman (18:57.920)

But, you know, getting into state of mind

Lex Fridman (19:00.760)

is something that we'd all just imagine we flip the switch,

Lex Fridman (19:02.840)

but Rick really convinced me,

Lex Fridman (19:04.080)

you have to do the work to do the work.

Lex Fridman (19:06.680)

Can you maybe linger on that,

Lex Fridman (19:09.440)

elucidate a little bit more of your process

Lex Fridman (19:11.200)

of how you get in that space?

Lex Fridman (19:12.880)

That's really interesting.

Andrew Huberman (19:14.040)

Cause I have to admit,

Lex Fridman (19:16.600)

I do everything last minute before a podcast.

Andrew Huberman (19:19.240)

I don't know.

Lex Fridman (19:21.320)

Like there's a lot of anxiety because like whatever,

Andrew Huberman (19:24.160)

if I have to pack, if I have to set up stuff,

Lex Fridman (19:27.120)

you were luckily a few minutes,

Andrew Huberman (19:29.040)

you showed up a few minutes later.

Lex Fridman (19:30.520)

Which for an academic is right on time.

Andrew Huberman (19:32.080)

Right on time.

Lex Fridman (19:33.280)

But the stress is immense.

Lex Fridman (19:36.040)

And on top of that,

Lex Fridman (19:38.080)

you look at like a situation with Rick Rubin,

Andrew Huberman (19:41.560)

is I had to set up microphones in front of him

Lex Fridman (19:44.760)

and just that stress, the anxiety.

Andrew Huberman (19:47.000)

He knows a lot about microphones.

Lex Fridman (19:48.320)

What did he say?

Andrew Huberman (19:49.160)

Which I really loved.

Lex Fridman (19:50.180)

He's like, how close do you like the microphone to be?

Andrew Huberman (19:56.000)

It's like.

Lex Fridman (19:56.840)

That's a very Rick Rubin kind of thing, right?

Andrew Huberman (19:59.120)

That the details really matter.

Lex Fridman (1:00:00.940)

is intimidatingly calm.

Lex Fridman (1:00:03.300)

But as you get to know him a bit,

Lex Fridman (1:00:04.540)

you realize that the kindness

Lex Fridman (1:00:07.340)

and the generosity that you sense is real.

Lex Fridman (1:00:11.420)

But yeah, I would never in a million years

Andrew Huberman (1:00:14.660)

have guessed that you get anxious in conversation.

Lex Fridman (1:00:16.740)

Can I just make another quick comment?

Andrew Huberman (1:00:19.100)

This may come off entertaining to you, Andrew.

Lex Fridman (1:00:22.380)

Maybe you've already gotten the same.

Lex Fridman (1:00:24.260)

But having mentioned Vladimir Putin, Vladimir Zelensky,

Lex Fridman (1:00:31.260)

Ghislaine Maxwell, there is a natural question.

Lex Fridman (1:00:37.260)

How does Lex have access to these people?

Lex Fridman (1:00:43.260)

Who does he work for?

Andrew Huberman (1:00:45.540)

Like how does he...

Lex Fridman (1:00:48.060)

Or who works for him.

Andrew Huberman (1:00:49.420)

Who works for him.

Lex Fridman (1:00:50.580)

Right.

Lex Fridman (1:00:51.420)

What does he have on others?

Lex Fridman (1:00:52.940)

This, I'm actually, I ask myself,

Andrew Huberman (1:00:55.780)

when I look in the mirror,

Lex Fridman (1:00:57.820)

just somebody who kind of enjoys conspiracy theories,

Andrew Huberman (1:01:01.980)

I want to ask the same question.

Lex Fridman (1:01:03.300)

Like, well, I usually ask in the following way,

Lex Fridman (1:01:05.500)

like, how the fuck am I so lucky?

Lex Fridman (1:01:07.220)

Like, who am I being, am I a robot

Lex Fridman (1:01:11.100)

being controlled by somebody else?

Lex Fridman (1:01:12.540)

Or like, how is this my life right now?

Lex Fridman (1:01:16.340)

What is happening?

Lex Fridman (1:01:17.180)

It really does feel like a simulation.

Lex Fridman (1:01:18.780)

So let me just speak to several things.

Lex Fridman (1:01:22.060)

First of all, I have no boss.

Andrew Huberman (1:01:25.300)

I know of nor am I controlled

Lex Fridman (1:01:29.180)

by any intelligence agencies of any nation.

Andrew Huberman (1:01:32.460)

We're going to get you a dog, Lex.

Lex Fridman (1:01:34.940)

So that I could talk to.

Andrew Huberman (1:01:37.140)

I'm scared of getting a dog

Lex Fridman (1:01:38.420)

because I would fall in love so deeply, I think.

Andrew Huberman (1:01:41.580)

Next time I'm bringing a puppy.

Lex Fridman (1:01:43.700)

I'm just going to bring a puppy

Lex Fridman (1:01:44.540)

and I'm going to leave it here.

Lex Fridman (1:01:46.900)

And then you'll never see me again.

Andrew Huberman (1:01:48.540)

I mean, I love dogs so much.

Lex Fridman (1:01:50.300)

But I was also surprised and maybe,

Andrew Huberman (1:01:55.740)

I have never talked to an intelligence agency,

Lex Fridman (1:02:00.540)

which is very interesting to me.

Andrew Huberman (1:02:02.380)

Like, I haven't.

Lex Fridman (1:02:03.500)

That you're aware of.

Andrew Huberman (1:02:05.060)

Cause they're very good at communicating.

Lex Fridman (1:02:07.780)

Right.

Lex Fridman (1:02:08.620)

But I've been very suspicious on this exact point.

Lex Fridman (1:02:10.980)

That's the downside of kind of being an introvert,

Andrew Huberman (1:02:15.500)

having anxiety about social interaction,

Lex Fridman (1:02:17.460)

but then having so much love thrown your way

Andrew Huberman (1:02:20.180)

because we connect over podcasts.

Lex Fridman (1:02:21.860)

Podcasts have a powerful way of connecting people.

Lex Fridman (1:02:24.540)

So people come with you with love that I really love.

Lex Fridman (1:02:28.220)

I appreciate, but I wonder like exactly this question,

Andrew Huberman (1:02:32.220)

like why is this person with a Russian accent talking to me

Lex Fridman (1:02:37.380)

and showing me so much love?

Andrew Huberman (1:02:39.180)

Well, because, sorry to interrupt you again,

Lex Fridman (1:02:41.100)

but it's what we do.

Lex Fridman (1:02:44.100)

And it's a sign of interest, by the way, too.

Lex Fridman (1:02:46.340)

Sometimes. Sometimes.

Andrew Huberman (1:02:47.620)

Yeah, I have a colleague at Stanford

Lex Fridman (1:02:49.020)

and she said, you know, interruption 75% of the time

Andrew Huberman (1:02:53.260)

is a sign of real interest in what the person is saying,

Lex Fridman (1:02:55.740)

if nothing else.

Andrew Huberman (1:02:57.540)

Well, you're very lovable.

Lex Fridman (1:03:00.740)

Well, that, that, but,

Andrew Huberman (1:03:01.660)

I mean, I learned about a hedgehog in the fog from you.

Lex Fridman (1:03:04.460)

Yeah.

Andrew Huberman (1:03:05.300)

You know, when I learned, you know, you're very lovable.

Lex Fridman (1:03:07.940)

People love you because you're lovable.

Andrew Huberman (1:03:09.700)

I love, love.

Lex Fridman (1:03:10.540)

Okay. So 100%.

Lex Fridman (1:03:12.460)

And it's, I mean, especially here in Austin, Texas,

Lex Fridman (1:03:14.780)

people are so, so amazing.

Andrew Huberman (1:03:17.060)

I go just hugs and just, ah, I love people.

Lex Fridman (1:03:19.780)

Do you want a family?

Lex Fridman (1:03:20.740)

Or are you eventually?

Lex Fridman (1:03:21.580)

100%.

Andrew Huberman (1:03:22.420)

I mean, you're, I take what you said as a challenge

Lex Fridman (1:03:26.140)

in terms of having a family with kids

Lex Fridman (1:03:28.860)

and they do jiu jitsu and obviously defeat you

Lex Fridman (1:03:32.220)

and make you miserable for your failures as a father

Andrew Huberman (1:03:37.220)

because you couldn't.

Lex Fridman (1:03:39.540)

But you're gonna be a great dad.

Andrew Huberman (1:03:40.900)

Build up an army of good jiu jitsu people.

Lex Fridman (1:03:43.060)

But yes, I would love a family.

Andrew Huberman (1:03:44.820)

I would love to have children.

Lex Fridman (1:03:47.100)

But I just want to finish that point

Andrew Huberman (1:03:49.580)

because I'm nervous about it.

Lex Fridman (1:03:50.580)

I'm nervous about the way people perceive.

Lex Fridman (1:03:52.780)

What you're seeing is a Forrest Gump type character.

Lex Fridman (1:03:54.940)

Like what, who I am, I seem to be,

Lex Fridman (1:03:58.100)

and this is how like the world seems to work,

Lex Fridman (1:04:00.700)

is you just try, you try to be yourself.

Andrew Huberman (1:04:03.420)

Like you try to find yourself.

Lex Fridman (1:04:05.540)

That's maybe the better way to say it.

Lex Fridman (1:04:07.220)

And just be that.

Lex Fridman (1:04:10.740)

Be kind to people.

Andrew Huberman (1:04:12.620)

Work your ass off.

Lex Fridman (1:04:14.580)

And say F you to anybody that wants to control you

Andrew Huberman (1:04:19.460)

or to tell you what to do.

Lex Fridman (1:04:21.460)

Just be free.

Lex Fridman (1:04:22.700)

And then put love out there in the world.

Lex Fridman (1:04:24.500)

And doors open.

Andrew Huberman (1:04:25.380)

This karma thing seems to work.

Lex Fridman (1:04:28.780)

Like how the hell, my friends as you know,

Lex Fridman (1:04:32.820)

how the hell did I get a chance to eat barbecue

Lex Fridman (1:04:35.620)

with Rick Rubin, right?

Andrew Huberman (1:04:37.060)

Like doors.

Lex Fridman (1:04:38.180)

You guys had a barbecue?

Andrew Huberman (1:04:39.020)

Yeah, I had barbecue.

Lex Fridman (1:04:40.380)

He, right, of course I did.

Andrew Huberman (1:04:42.420)

He's from New York.

Lex Fridman (1:04:43.260)

Any New Yorker that I know has very high standards for food

Andrew Huberman (1:04:46.900)

because bad restaurants don't last long in New York.

Lex Fridman (1:04:49.300)

And barbecue counts as?

Andrew Huberman (1:04:50.780)

Oh yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:04:51.620)

Oh yeah, Texas barbecue.

Andrew Huberman (1:04:52.860)

Well, you know, I would also add that you,

Lex Fridman (1:04:56.780)

whether or not you realize it or not,

Andrew Huberman (1:04:57.900)

you took tremendous risk.

Lex Fridman (1:04:59.460)

I mean, we come from the same original community,

Lex Fridman (1:05:01.260)

which is academic science, right?

Lex Fridman (1:05:03.220)

And to be at MIT and to start posting lectures online

Lex Fridman (1:05:07.620)

is risky, right?

Lex Fridman (1:05:09.460)

To, you know, I was third or fourth man in

Andrew Huberman (1:05:12.700)

in terms of podcasting as an academic.

Lex Fridman (1:05:14.620)

Cause you had gone on Rogan many times,

Andrew Huberman (1:05:16.980)

David Sinclair had gone on there.

Lex Fridman (1:05:18.500)

You know, especially before the pandemic,

Andrew Huberman (1:05:22.580)

you just didn't see many academics and scientists

Lex Fridman (1:05:24.340)

talking in a public facing way.

Lex Fridman (1:05:26.900)

So you took tremendous risk, right?

Lex Fridman (1:05:29.020)

You took tremendous risk

Lex Fridman (1:05:30.180)

always wearing that jacket and tie, right?

Lex Fridman (1:05:33.380)

The only time I haven't seen you in that truly

Andrew Huberman (1:05:35.020)

is when we rolled jujitsu, which is,

Lex Fridman (1:05:36.820)

and I hear I'm being generous to myself saying

Andrew Huberman (1:05:38.420)

I rolled jujitsu when basically you choked me out

Lex Fridman (1:05:40.300)

in front of hundreds of people.

Andrew Huberman (1:05:41.140)

Thank you for doing that.

Lex Fridman (1:05:41.980)

It was, it was great fun.

Lex Fridman (1:05:44.700)

And I...

Lex Fridman (1:05:45.780)

Thank you for doing that.

Andrew Huberman (1:05:46.700)

To have a beginner's mind is a beautiful thing.

Lex Fridman (1:05:48.620)

I have admittedly, I have not been taking the classes,

Lex Fridman (1:05:51.260)

but I'm going to, I truly am.

Lex Fridman (1:05:54.060)

Especially there's a small chance I might find myself

Andrew Huberman (1:05:56.620)

in Austin a bit more often in the near future.

Lex Fridman (1:05:59.420)

But the...

Andrew Huberman (1:06:00.380)

Well, if you're out in San Francisco,

Lex Fridman (1:06:01.620)

you should train with Mark Zuckerberg.

Andrew Huberman (1:06:02.860)

He just started, so there you go.

Lex Fridman (1:06:04.220)

Oh yeah?

Andrew Huberman (1:06:05.060)

You guys can...

Lex Fridman (1:06:05.900)

Interesting.

Andrew Huberman (1:06:07.940)

Sure.

Lex Fridman (1:06:09.180)

I mean, he's actually,

Andrew Huberman (1:06:10.540)

I mean, people listen to an episode,

Lex Fridman (1:06:12.380)

perhaps he's a fascinating human being too.

Andrew Huberman (1:06:14.140)

I listened to it, it was great.

Lex Fridman (1:06:15.820)

You took tremendous risk as an academic to do what you did.

Lex Fridman (1:06:19.740)

So I do believe that when one takes intelligent risk,

Lex Fridman (1:06:24.140)

because you can die or can crash your career,

Andrew Huberman (1:06:26.300)

you can do all sorts of self destructive

Lex Fridman (1:06:28.820)

or destructive things when taking risks.

Lex Fridman (1:06:31.180)

You took risks and they paid off, right?

Lex Fridman (1:06:33.460)

And you take different risks at different stages,

Lex Fridman (1:06:35.220)

but I don't throw around the word admiration lightly.

Lex Fridman (1:06:38.940)

I mean, I admire that you were in this classroom at MIT.

Andrew Huberman (1:06:41.500)

You're like, I'm gonna film this and put it online.

Lex Fridman (1:06:44.460)

One of your early interviews is with Ido Portal,

Andrew Huberman (1:06:47.020)

who's very hard to get to.

Lex Fridman (1:06:49.140)

I've communicated with Ido a few times.

Andrew Huberman (1:06:50.820)

You should definitely talk to him.

Lex Fridman (1:06:51.740)

I can't wait to talk to him.

Andrew Huberman (1:06:53.020)

I'm dying to talk to him.

Lex Fridman (1:06:54.180)

I was supposed to do some course teaching with him

Andrew Huberman (1:06:57.460)

right before the pandemic hit,

Lex Fridman (1:06:58.740)

and then it got canceled because he couldn't travel,

Lex Fridman (1:07:00.700)

but getting to him is exceedingly challenging.

Lex Fridman (1:07:02.980)

So you do have this incredible ability to get to people

Lex Fridman (1:07:06.380)

and for them to trust you and know you.

Lex Fridman (1:07:09.900)

And I think it's through your authenticity.

Lex Fridman (1:07:12.380)

And I think it's the fact that you're willing to go places

Lex Fridman (1:07:15.060)

where people haven't been before.

Lex Fridman (1:07:16.780)

You know, this is, what's the saying about pioneers?

Lex Fridman (1:07:19.540)

How do you spot the pioneers?

Andrew Huberman (1:07:20.860)

They're the people with the arrows in their backs.

Lex Fridman (1:07:23.060)

You know, so that's the, you know, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:07:26.260)

And that's actually a quote that I lifted

Lex Fridman (1:07:28.220)

from Terry Siknowski, who's a, you know.

Andrew Huberman (1:07:30.820)

You should talk to Terry.

Lex Fridman (1:07:34.340)

He's a computational neuroscientist

Andrew Huberman (1:07:37.620)

down at the Salk Institute,

Lex Fridman (1:07:39.460)

Howard Hughes investigator, et cetera.

Lex Fridman (1:07:40.820)

But so, you know, taking risks

Lex Fridman (1:07:43.420)

that other people have not taken is, that's a real thing.

Lex Fridman (1:07:48.300)

And to do it with integrity and rigor, that's a real thing.

Lex Fridman (1:07:53.220)

And so, yeah, I'm complimenting you

Lex Fridman (1:07:55.180)

and I hope it lands and lands deeply.

Lex Fridman (1:07:57.980)

But I also hope that people will hear that

Lex Fridman (1:07:59.460)

and understand that it's one thing

Lex Fridman (1:08:01.700)

to do what other people are already doing boldly.

Andrew Huberman (1:08:06.380)

It's a whole other thing to launch an entire art form

Lex Fridman (1:08:10.540)

or venue and you did that.

Lex Fridman (1:08:12.860)

And you didn't write a book, hopefully you will someday,

Lex Fridman (1:08:15.580)

but you didn't go write a book.

Andrew Huberman (1:08:16.540)

A lot of academics have written books.

Lex Fridman (1:08:18.460)

You went online.

Andrew Huberman (1:08:19.940)

Jordan Peterson, another controversial character.

Lex Fridman (1:08:22.020)

He did it too, all those lectures that he filmed.

Lex Fridman (1:08:24.420)

And then it's led to this other thing.

Lex Fridman (1:08:26.060)

So, you know, there's karma.

Lex Fridman (1:08:30.180)

And then there's also having the spine

Lex Fridman (1:08:32.780)

to just put it all on the line

Lex Fridman (1:08:34.740)

and do something for which there is no prior example

Lex Fridman (1:08:38.860)

to hold onto while you go through those headwinds.

Andrew Huberman (1:08:43.020)

The really fascinating thing,

Lex Fridman (1:08:44.100)

and actually a lot of people tell me about you,

Andrew Huberman (1:08:46.500)

Andrew Huberman, like the reach of a podcast

Lex Fridman (1:08:51.500)

is really fascinating.

Andrew Huberman (1:08:53.020)

It's not the numbers of people listen.

Lex Fridman (1:08:56.100)

I don't know if that's important at all.

Andrew Huberman (1:08:59.420)

Is what's important is like the depth of connection

Lex Fridman (1:09:02.460)

you have with certain people.

Andrew Huberman (1:09:04.180)

It really moves them.

Lex Fridman (1:09:05.420)

Like a great, and like they really get you.

Lex Fridman (1:09:08.540)

So there's a lot of big Andrew Huberman fans

Lex Fridman (1:09:11.220)

that really get you.

Andrew Huberman (1:09:12.620)

It's not just the science.

Lex Fridman (1:09:13.940)

It's the stuff between the lines.

Andrew Huberman (1:09:15.860)

It's Costello.

Lex Fridman (1:09:16.900)

It's the whole picture of a scientist

Andrew Huberman (1:09:18.980)

that finds beauty in biology and reveals it.

Lex Fridman (1:09:22.100)

And they love you for it.

Andrew Huberman (1:09:23.300)

You know, because it was on television at the time,

Lex Fridman (1:09:28.220)

I followed that Amanda Knox story pretty carefully.

Lex Fridman (1:09:31.660)

And I don't watch television,

Lex Fridman (1:09:33.260)

but whenever I would travel,

Andrew Huberman (1:09:34.740)

if there was a TV on the airplane,

Lex Fridman (1:09:37.140)

I would find myself getting wrapped into things

Andrew Huberman (1:09:39.380)

like locked up abroad, you know, like,

Lex Fridman (1:09:42.220)

and these things where they would make you terrified

Andrew Huberman (1:09:44.100)

to travel anywhere, let alone commit a crime overseas.

Lex Fridman (1:09:47.220)

You know, the scenes of some of these prisons

Andrew Huberman (1:09:49.540)

are so dramatic.

Lex Fridman (1:09:50.580)

And, you know, I mean, her case got a ton of interest.

Lex Fridman (1:09:52.500)

And then I, you know, she went and then was a student

Lex Fridman (1:09:55.620)

at the University of Washington

Lex Fridman (1:09:57.220)

and has talked quite openly about, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:09:59.660)

how she was treated and how people assume guilt

Andrew Huberman (1:10:02.620)

and, you know, and eventually, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:10:04.140)

she was exonerated and, you know,

Andrew Huberman (1:10:05.940)

we can only go by what we know what the law determined,

Lex Fridman (1:10:08.460)

but, you know, these are people that

Andrew Huberman (1:10:11.420)

the world is fascinated by.

Lex Fridman (1:10:13.580)

I would, I'm guessing about a third of people

Andrew Huberman (1:10:15.540)

have already decided this person is despicable.

Lex Fridman (1:10:18.220)

Why would you ever give them an audience?

Andrew Huberman (1:10:20.540)

About a third of people I think are open to,

Lex Fridman (1:10:24.140)

or at least interested in learning more about them.

Lex Fridman (1:10:27.100)

And then I think the remaining third,

Lex Fridman (1:10:29.180)

kind of the third that the category that I put myself in,

Andrew Huberman (1:10:32.820)

which is what can I learn about people and myself,

Lex Fridman (1:10:37.940)

even in my revulsion, right?

Lex Fridman (1:10:41.100)

What can I learn?

Lex Fridman (1:10:42.540)

Yeah, what can I learn about myself

Andrew Huberman (1:10:44.180)

from listening to this conversation

Lex Fridman (1:10:45.700)

with somebody that I like to think,

Andrew Huberman (1:10:48.220)

I'm not talking about Amanda here,

Lex Fridman (1:10:49.300)

I'm talking about the other people that you're talking about

Lex Fridman (1:10:50.740)

that I don't, I can't relate to, right?

Lex Fridman (1:10:54.500)

Hearing conversations with and about people

Andrew Huberman (1:10:57.300)

that you cannot relate to is informative.

Lex Fridman (1:10:59.740)

Otherwise, your whole mind literally becomes insular.

Andrew Huberman (1:11:03.660)

Well, there's an interesting thing I also had to,

Lex Fridman (1:11:07.260)

ever since the war in Ukraine broke out,

Andrew Huberman (1:11:09.620)

one of the questions I was asking myself,

Lex Fridman (1:11:13.420)

and this is not to be dramatic,

Andrew Huberman (1:11:15.180)

it's just a very simple, honest question

Lex Fridman (1:11:17.740)

that I think a lot of journalists

Andrew Huberman (1:11:19.180)

that operate in the war zone,

Lex Fridman (1:11:21.060)

or documentary filmmakers

Andrew Huberman (1:11:22.780)

that ever since they got a chance to meet,

Lex Fridman (1:11:24.740)

have to be honest with themselves,

Lex Fridman (1:11:27.300)

are you willing to put at risk your life for things you do?

Lex Fridman (1:11:34.860)

What are you willing to die for?

Lex Fridman (1:11:36.020)

Yeah, what are you willing to die for?

Lex Fridman (1:11:37.460)

It sounds very dramatic, but whenever risk goes up,

Andrew Huberman (1:11:44.140)

I mean, I don't know, you asked that

Lex Fridman (1:11:46.060)

if you wanna take a trip out to space

Andrew Huberman (1:11:48.740)

on a commercial space flight,

Lex Fridman (1:11:51.300)

you have to, are you willing to die for this journey?

Andrew Huberman (1:11:56.220)

Now, the odds, they're really small.

Lex Fridman (1:11:58.020)

I just watched Apollo 13 again.

Andrew Huberman (1:12:00.180)

Great movie.

Lex Fridman (1:12:01.300)

I'm not going to space.

Andrew Huberman (1:12:02.780)

I'm not going to space.

Lex Fridman (1:12:05.660)

Afraid of heights?

Andrew Huberman (1:12:06.580)

No, I'm not afraid of heights.

Lex Fridman (1:12:08.420)

I just, it feels like a terrible place to die.

Andrew Huberman (1:12:13.820)

Well, first of all, death anywhere is not great.

Lex Fridman (1:12:17.020)

Yeah, although, I have a song teed up in my phone.

Andrew Huberman (1:12:21.500)

If the plane starts to go down,

Lex Fridman (1:12:24.260)

I'm gonna spend the last few.

Andrew Huberman (1:12:25.540)

It's a rare song.

Lex Fridman (1:12:26.420)

Nobody knows it.

Andrew Huberman (1:12:27.260)

It's a song off a B track of my favorite band,

Lex Fridman (1:12:29.780)

which is Rancid.

Andrew Huberman (1:12:30.620)

It's a song called The Sentence.

Lex Fridman (1:12:32.020)

And nobody, and I love it.

Lex Fridman (1:12:34.060)

And I listen to it almost every day.

Lex Fridman (1:12:36.340)

Rancid, The Sentence, it's called The Sentence?

Andrew Huberman (1:12:38.180)

The band is called Rancid, famous band, relatively.

Lex Fridman (1:12:41.700)

Love those guys, love their music.

Lex Fridman (1:12:43.220)

And the song is The Sentence.

Lex Fridman (1:12:44.700)

You can only find it on like a B side or outtake.

Lex Fridman (1:12:46.900)

And it's, if you don't know how to decipher

Lex Fridman (1:12:49.860)

Tim Armstrong's voice,

Andrew Huberman (1:12:50.900)

then you probably won't understand the lyrics.

Lex Fridman (1:12:52.460)

But because it's sung very, very fast.

Lex Fridman (1:12:55.340)

But if the plane ever goes,

Lex Fridman (1:12:56.420)

anytime there's turbulence,

Andrew Huberman (1:12:57.380)

I put that thing in, I put the headphones in.

Lex Fridman (1:12:59.020)

I'm like, well, you know, if it's time, it's time.

Andrew Huberman (1:13:01.060)

I'm gonna go out like this.

Lex Fridman (1:13:02.340)

I don't wanna drift off into the galaxy,

Andrew Huberman (1:13:04.180)

just slowly asphyxiating and freezing to death.

Lex Fridman (1:13:06.420)

That sounds horrible.

Andrew Huberman (1:13:08.060)

Just like I wouldn't wanna drown or burn.

Lex Fridman (1:13:09.500)

But on a plane is okay?

Andrew Huberman (1:13:10.860)

Well, on a plane, I mean, like,

Lex Fridman (1:13:11.820)

if the thing starts going down

Lex Fridman (1:13:13.060)

and there's truly nothing you can do,

Lex Fridman (1:13:15.100)

you might as well at least listen to your favorite song.

Andrew Huberman (1:13:17.180)

Yeah, true, true.

Lex Fridman (1:13:18.140)

I'll probably go with The Pixies,

Andrew Huberman (1:13:19.220)

Where's My Mind, like from Fight Club.

Lex Fridman (1:13:21.500)

And just the calmness, just sit back,

Andrew Huberman (1:13:23.580)

like the musicians playing at the Titanic.

Lex Fridman (1:13:26.340)

I didn't know you were a Pixies fan.

Andrew Huberman (1:13:27.420)

I'm gonna have to.

Lex Fridman (1:13:28.260)

Not so much a Pixies fan.

Andrew Huberman (1:13:29.740)

Actually, I should say that I just,

Lex Fridman (1:13:32.660)

that was the, Where's My Mind was the chosen song

Andrew Huberman (1:13:35.980)

for Fight Club at the end when the buildings

Lex Fridman (1:13:39.660)

are coming down or something like that.

Lex Fridman (1:13:41.900)

So that there's certain songs that just fit just right

Lex Fridman (1:13:46.820)

for the collapse of human civilization

Lex Fridman (1:13:49.140)

and you're calmly appreciating, like,

Lex Fridman (1:13:54.220)

that that's just it.

Andrew Huberman (1:13:55.500)

This is how absurd this life is at any moment it can end.

Lex Fridman (1:13:58.100)

And this is it.

Andrew Huberman (1:14:01.380)

I love how we both have death and demise soundtracks.

Lex Fridman (1:14:05.460)

It's just a question when you're an academic,

Andrew Huberman (1:14:08.420)

doesn't come up often.

Lex Fridman (1:14:10.460)

Right, well.

Andrew Huberman (1:14:11.300)

Yeah, there are some academics that are bold and brave.

Lex Fridman (1:14:15.940)

It's not a phenotype.

Andrew Huberman (1:14:17.980)

Being bold and brave in the physical world

Lex Fridman (1:14:19.700)

is not a common phenotype of academics.

Andrew Huberman (1:14:22.100)

I mean, the great neurologist, one of my,

Lex Fridman (1:14:24.260)

I don't have many heroes, but Oliver Sacks is a true hero.

Andrew Huberman (1:14:27.780)

I mean, people think of him as a writer,

Lex Fridman (1:14:30.340)

but he was foremost a neurologist

Lex Fridman (1:14:32.140)

and he took tremendous pushback from the neurology community

Lex Fridman (1:14:36.660)

for doing his books and his articles.

Andrew Huberman (1:14:39.020)

He has a great biography called On the Move.

Lex Fridman (1:14:40.940)

There's a wonderful documentary

Andrew Huberman (1:14:42.100)

that just came out about him.

Lex Fridman (1:14:42.980)

He died in 2015.

Andrew Huberman (1:14:44.660)

I'm actually kind of a collector of his things,

Lex Fridman (1:14:50.100)

but he, tremendous, but he was accused of horrible things

Andrew Huberman (1:14:53.900)

until the movie Awakenings came out

Lex Fridman (1:14:56.260)

with De Niro and Robin Williams.

Andrew Huberman (1:14:58.020)

Amazing movie, by the way, people don't,

Lex Fridman (1:15:00.100)

they seem to not say great things about the movie.

Andrew Huberman (1:15:02.260)

I love that movie.

Lex Fridman (1:15:03.100)

It was amazing.

Lex Fridman (1:15:04.140)

And it was only once he became famous from that movie

Lex Fridman (1:15:08.460)

that his more academic work started

Andrew Huberman (1:15:11.260)

to receive any kind of attention

Lex Fridman (1:15:12.940)

and he was invited back to Columbia and NYU.

Andrew Huberman (1:15:15.380)

You know, the New York Neuroscience Mafia is a real thing.

Lex Fridman (1:15:18.140)

And yes, you know who you are.

Lex Fridman (1:15:20.140)

And some of them are actually coming on the broadcast.

Lex Fridman (1:15:22.580)

They are...

Andrew Huberman (1:15:25.340)

I think we talked offline about this.

Lex Fridman (1:15:26.900)

We should start a mafia to fight off

Andrew Huberman (1:15:30.060)

whatever's going on in the East Coast.

Lex Fridman (1:15:31.620)

Although I'm still at MIT, so I don't know how that works,

Lex Fridman (1:15:33.980)

but Boston is different than New York.

Lex Fridman (1:15:36.020)

Yeah, so I have tremendous respect

Andrew Huberman (1:15:37.420)

for science done in New York.

Lex Fridman (1:15:38.780)

Don't get me wrong.

Andrew Huberman (1:15:39.620)

They are excellent scientists.

Lex Fridman (1:15:41.220)

It's just a very different culture than on the West Coast.

Lex Fridman (1:15:44.500)

And the personalities, the personalities...

Lex Fridman (1:15:46.780)

Tremendous respect for the mob.

Andrew Huberman (1:15:48.900)

Well, and the personalities are a bit more grandiose.

Lex Fridman (1:15:53.700)

However, because of some of the shift

Andrew Huberman (1:15:56.260)

in science culture in the last few years,

Lex Fridman (1:15:59.300)

things around scandals and things of that sort,

Andrew Huberman (1:16:03.580)

they've been forced to tamp down some of their personality

Lex Fridman (1:16:07.180)

or at least their outspoken personality.

Lex Fridman (1:16:09.380)

And I actually think it's revealed something

Lex Fridman (1:16:11.140)

really important and useful in science,

Andrew Huberman (1:16:12.740)

which is it used to be the case

Lex Fridman (1:16:15.180)

you could really inject your personality into what you do.

Andrew Huberman (1:16:19.540)

Richard Feynman is a good example.

Lex Fridman (1:16:21.900)

If he did today what he did then,

Andrew Huberman (1:16:25.060)

bongo drumming on the roof of Caltech naked,

Lex Fridman (1:16:28.660)

working out theorems in strip clubs and things of that,

Andrew Huberman (1:16:31.620)

he would have lost his job in moments.

Lex Fridman (1:16:35.500)

So that kind of behavior isn't celebrated anymore.

Andrew Huberman (1:16:37.740)

It's actually punished.

Lex Fridman (1:16:39.460)

And I'm only half kidding

Andrew Huberman (1:16:40.540)

about this New York neuroscience mafia,

Lex Fridman (1:16:42.260)

but because I now exist in multiple realms,

Andrew Huberman (1:16:44.140)

I can say these sorts of things.

Lex Fridman (1:16:45.220)

And I, again, admiration and respect,

Lex Fridman (1:16:47.340)

but I will say that I think it's important

Lex Fridman (1:16:50.460)

that people in science and kids that are curious

Andrew Huberman (1:16:53.380)

about science understand that you can have any personality

Lex Fridman (1:16:58.060)

provided that you're ethical and respectful in science

Lex Fridman (1:17:01.220)

and do well, right?

Lex Fridman (1:17:03.020)

There are true bench scientists

Andrew Huberman (1:17:05.500)

that just want to be at the bench.

Lex Fridman (1:17:07.060)

There are people that just want to be in their office.

Andrew Huberman (1:17:08.580)

There are people that really enjoy public speaking.

Lex Fridman (1:17:11.580)

And there are people that love meetings

Lex Fridman (1:17:12.980)

and there are people that hate crowds.

Lex Fridman (1:17:14.220)

And so there's a place for everybody,

Andrew Huberman (1:17:16.140)

truly a place for everybody in science.

Lex Fridman (1:17:19.020)

I would like to be able to shine light

Andrew Huberman (1:17:21.300)

on the fact that there are,

Lex Fridman (1:17:23.180)

you can have a shy personality, an outgoing personality,

Lex Fridman (1:17:27.580)

and you can, all of those can be,

Lex Fridman (1:17:30.740)

have excellent careers in science,

Lex Fridman (1:17:32.420)

but you have to find the community in place

Lex Fridman (1:17:34.140)

that's right for you.

Andrew Huberman (1:17:34.980)

One reason I like Stanford

Lex Fridman (1:17:36.580)

is that Stanford is very much about the future.

Andrew Huberman (1:17:39.620)

We have Nobel prize winners,

Lex Fridman (1:17:40.980)

we have field medal winners and all that stuff,

Lex Fridman (1:17:43.020)

and their names are on walls

Lex Fridman (1:17:44.260)

and we acknowledge their great works.

Lex Fridman (1:17:46.100)

But most of what you hear about in the halls of Stanford

Lex Fridman (1:17:49.060)

is about what's happening now and what could happen next.

Andrew Huberman (1:17:52.420)

It's really about the future.

Lex Fridman (1:17:53.980)

Whereas when I've spent time at other institutions

Andrew Huberman (1:17:55.940)

not to be named, you hear that,

Lex Fridman (1:17:58.340)

but there's a lot of kind of recycling and regurgitation

Andrew Huberman (1:18:02.060)

of how wonderful people are

Lex Fridman (1:18:03.620)

based on things they did previously.

Lex Fridman (1:18:05.820)

And the students at Stanford, because of Silicon Valley,

Lex Fridman (1:18:09.260)

sure, they have respect for Nobel prizes,

Andrew Huberman (1:18:10.980)

they're delighted to be learning from

Lex Fridman (1:18:12.140)

and surrounded by all these great minds,

Lex Fridman (1:18:14.140)

but they're mostly interested

Lex Fridman (1:18:15.460)

in what they are gonna create.

Lex Fridman (1:18:17.660)

And so I kind of, not kind of,

Lex Fridman (1:18:19.980)

I really like the shift toward possibility

Andrew Huberman (1:18:23.260)

as opposed to things that are steeped in tradition.

Lex Fridman (1:18:26.420)

You know, I've never been to high table dinner at Oxford,

Andrew Huberman (1:18:28.660)

I'm sure it's a wonderful experience.

Lex Fridman (1:18:30.540)

I'm also not sure what purpose it serves for the world,

Lex Fridman (1:18:35.140)

but I've never been,

Lex Fridman (1:18:36.260)

and so I don't know what the conversations are,

Lex Fridman (1:18:37.740)

and so maybe I'm, you know, speaking out of line here.

Lex Fridman (1:18:40.860)

And then now I'm definitely not getting invited.

Andrew Huberman (1:18:43.060)

No, you're definitely getting invited.

Lex Fridman (1:18:44.860)

But yeah, I'm with you,

Andrew Huberman (1:18:45.740)

the culture's picked the right ones for you.

Lex Fridman (1:18:48.180)

That's why I like MIT, the spirit of it.

Andrew Huberman (1:18:51.980)

To me, it's not about the past or the future,

Lex Fridman (1:18:55.140)

it's about just tinkering and having fun,

Andrew Huberman (1:18:58.180)

building cool stuff.

Lex Fridman (1:18:59.500)

Like the big ambitious projects, it's there.

Andrew Huberman (1:19:03.500)

I mean, it may be more in the biology and the health side,

Lex Fridman (1:19:06.620)

but like the engineering side,

Andrew Huberman (1:19:08.740)

it doesn't matter if this has any impact,

Lex Fridman (1:19:10.780)

let us build the coolest thing the world has ever built.

Andrew Huberman (1:19:13.780)

Well, whenever I'm in Kendall Square,

Lex Fridman (1:19:16.580)

I've seen, they have those buildings there

Andrew Huberman (1:19:18.780)

that actually tilt toward the ground.

Lex Fridman (1:19:20.380)

These are these, the architecture of MIT

Andrew Huberman (1:19:22.460)

is also really impressive.

Lex Fridman (1:19:24.060)

Yeah, this, he pulled up,

Andrew Huberman (1:19:25.500)

Sergei just pulled up Yilmaz tweet.

Lex Fridman (1:19:27.380)

I'm inspired by curiosity.

Andrew Huberman (1:19:28.820)

That is what drives me.

Lex Fridman (1:19:30.180)

So let us expand the scope and scale of consciousness

Lex Fridman (1:19:32.980)

so that we may aspire to understand the universe.

Lex Fridman (1:19:35.700)

Those are like three tweets in one,

Lex Fridman (1:19:37.220)

but curiosity, yeah, yeah, curiosity for its own sake.

Lex Fridman (1:19:41.700)

What's that saying?

Andrew Huberman (1:19:43.620)

I think Dorothy Parker said,

Lex Fridman (1:19:46.260)

the cure for boredom is curiosity.

Andrew Huberman (1:19:48.580)

There is no cure for curiosity.

Lex Fridman (1:19:51.460)

And you need to celebrate.

Lex Fridman (1:19:52.580)

So let me just briefly mention

Lex Fridman (1:19:54.900)

to my lovely friends at MIT

Andrew Huberman (1:20:00.580)

to celebrate different weirdness,

Lex Fridman (1:20:03.220)

to celebrate the weird characters.

Andrew Huberman (1:20:06.020)

I've, I sometimes get loving pressure

Lex Fridman (1:20:10.780)

from my lovely friends at MIT

Andrew Huberman (1:20:15.020)

to tone down the weirdness a bit.

Lex Fridman (1:20:18.580)

Really?

Lex Fridman (1:20:19.420)

Even from MIT?

Lex Fridman (1:20:20.460)

I'm very fortunate to have a lot of leverage

Andrew Huberman (1:20:24.980)

to where I have completely resist the pressure,

Lex Fridman (1:20:29.140)

but I'm very sure that there's young faculty

Andrew Huberman (1:20:32.500)

that with that subtle pressure would...

Lex Fridman (1:20:37.340)

Dissolve them into a puddle of tears.

Andrew Huberman (1:20:39.860)

Not, no, no.

Lex Fridman (1:20:40.700)

Oh, they're from Boston, excuse me.

Andrew Huberman (1:20:41.860)

From Boston, that's right.

Lex Fridman (1:20:42.900)

They're tougher than that.

Andrew Huberman (1:20:43.740)

That's right, but it's a slight nudging

Lex Fridman (1:20:45.820)

towards conformity that I think ultimately destroys,

Andrew Huberman (1:20:51.340)

or at least lessens the power of the kind of science

Lex Fridman (1:20:56.660)

that you can do when you encourage diversity.

Andrew Huberman (1:21:00.220)

Diversity in all of its forms,

Lex Fridman (1:21:02.420)

including the weirdness of ideas,

Andrew Huberman (1:21:04.220)

the out of the box thinkers,

Lex Fridman (1:21:05.820)

including the flamboyant behavior online,

Lex Fridman (1:21:10.260)

how you choose to educate, how you choose to inspire.

Lex Fridman (1:21:13.860)

People talk about freedom of speech,

Lex Fridman (1:21:15.260)

but it's not just freedom of speech

Lex Fridman (1:21:17.820)

to say controversial things.

Andrew Huberman (1:21:20.320)

It's also freedom of speech to be weird.

Lex Fridman (1:21:23.140)

If you're, for some reason, fascinated in...

Andrew Huberman (1:21:27.060)

You look at Elon Musk.

Lex Fridman (1:21:28.100)

He talks about sex a lot.

Andrew Huberman (1:21:29.660)

Let the guy put sex memes up.

Lex Fridman (1:21:31.740)

Who cares?

Andrew Huberman (1:21:33.060)

I mean, I feel like Elon can do basically whatever he wants.

Lex Fridman (1:21:36.400)

Right, there's no pressure,

Lex Fridman (1:21:37.640)

but there's a bunch of Elons in the academic world.

Lex Fridman (1:21:40.380)

There's a bunch of Elons.

Andrew Huberman (1:21:42.440)

No, actually, sorry.

Lex Fridman (1:21:43.480)

Let me backtrack, because the man deserves props.

Andrew Huberman (1:21:47.100)

Right, he's unparalleled.

Lex Fridman (1:21:48.780)

He's a CEO of major companies.

Andrew Huberman (1:21:50.480)

You better believe there's pressure

Lex Fridman (1:21:53.260)

to behave more like a CEO,

Andrew Huberman (1:21:55.000)

as opposed to a giggling schoolboy

Lex Fridman (1:21:57.660)

who's posting memes throughout the night.

Lex Fridman (1:22:00.140)

But that is him.

Lex Fridman (1:22:02.060)

And that freedom, that's what freedom looks like.

Andrew Huberman (1:22:06.060)

I talk to a lot of CEOs,

Lex Fridman (1:22:08.100)

and a lot of them feel like caged birds

Andrew Huberman (1:22:13.940)

who have long ago forgotten how to sing, quite honestly.

Lex Fridman (1:22:17.740)

Like, there's like shareholders,

Lex Fridman (1:22:20.740)

and they come up with excuses for themselves.

Lex Fridman (1:22:22.660)

Here's why I have to be this way, you have to understand.

Lex Fridman (1:22:25.660)

So on, there's PR, there's marketing people,

Lex Fridman (1:22:27.820)

there's lawyers, there's all that kind of stuff.

Lex Fridman (1:22:30.300)

But the final result is the authenticity is suffocated.

Lex Fridman (1:22:35.080)

The beautiful weirdness of a CEO,

Andrew Huberman (1:22:38.460)

of a leader, of a creator, of a scientist, all that,

Lex Fridman (1:22:41.660)

that's all gone.

Andrew Huberman (1:22:45.060)

Well, Steve Jobs wouldn't have kept his job

Lex Fridman (1:22:49.100)

in acting the way he did in his 20s and 30s

Andrew Huberman (1:22:52.100)

in today's climate.

Lex Fridman (1:22:53.540)

But he probably would have updated his protocols,

Lex Fridman (1:22:57.200)

so to speak. A little bit,

Lex Fridman (1:22:58.040)

but maybe.

Andrew Huberman (1:22:59.740)

You know, you're screaming at employees.

Lex Fridman (1:23:01.100)

I mean, these are anecdotes, right?

Andrew Huberman (1:23:02.940)

I call them anecdata,

Lex Fridman (1:23:04.440)

because people treat them as data,

Lex Fridman (1:23:05.780)

but they're really just anecdotes.

Lex Fridman (1:23:07.160)

We don't know, I wasn't there.

Andrew Huberman (1:23:09.700)

But, you know, I like the idea of authenticity

Lex Fridman (1:23:14.300)

without oversharing, right?

Andrew Huberman (1:23:16.500)

You're very authentic, but there are aspects to your life

Lex Fridman (1:23:19.620)

that I'm aware of that your audiences will never be aware of,

Lex Fridman (1:23:22.340)

and there are aspects of your life

Lex Fridman (1:23:23.280)

that I'll never be aware of.

Lex Fridman (1:23:24.380)

And so you're still authentic, but.

Lex Fridman (1:23:26.540)

Yeah, wait, which ones are you aware of?

Andrew Huberman (1:23:29.500)

People are gonna wonder, like,

Lex Fridman (1:23:30.620)

what is, is he up in sex dungeon?

Lex Fridman (1:23:32.860)

What is this?

Lex Fridman (1:23:33.700)

No, no, no, no.

Lex Fridman (1:23:35.380)

But interesting choice of examples.

Lex Fridman (1:23:39.300)

No, but I think that, you know,

Andrew Huberman (1:23:42.220)

people lose the careers on the basis

Lex Fridman (1:23:44.940)

of the movement of their thumbs, right?

Andrew Huberman (1:23:47.460)

I mean, the chair of psychiatry at Columbia

Lex Fridman (1:23:50.360)

recently lost his position based on a response to a tweet.

Andrew Huberman (1:23:55.380)

People can look that up.

Lex Fridman (1:23:56.220)

This is one of the most famous psychiatry departments

Andrew Huberman (1:23:58.260)

in the world.

Lex Fridman (1:23:59.240)

And he put something out there

Andrew Huberman (1:24:01.000)

that was very insensitive, frankly.

Lex Fridman (1:24:03.060)

And everyone that I talked to about it was like,

Andrew Huberman (1:24:06.300)

gosh, that was very, very insensitive,

Lex Fridman (1:24:09.060)

not thoughtful at all.

Lex Fridman (1:24:10.080)

And he lost his job, right?

Lex Fridman (1:24:11.940)

Or at least had to step down.

Andrew Huberman (1:24:12.960)

I don't know the specifics.

Lex Fridman (1:24:14.260)

So, you know, I think I read someplace

Andrew Huberman (1:24:18.680)

that more than half of the job loss due to online behavior

Lex Fridman (1:24:22.700)

is because people were trying to be funny, right?

Andrew Huberman (1:24:25.940)

I mean, not everyone can pull off what Tim Dillon.

Lex Fridman (1:24:29.760)

Oh, and by the way, congratulations.

Andrew Huberman (1:24:30.980)

I heard that you and Tim just got married.

Lex Fridman (1:24:32.500)

Yeah, I saw that too.

Andrew Huberman (1:24:33.340)

No, no, we didn't just get married.

Lex Fridman (1:24:34.180)

Engaged.

Andrew Huberman (1:24:35.000)

He proposed.

Lex Fridman (1:24:35.840)

Yeah, got it, got it, got it.

Lex Fridman (1:24:36.680)

And I said, yes.

Lex Fridman (1:24:37.580)

Right.

Lex Fridman (1:24:38.420)

So some people can get away.

Lex Fridman (1:24:40.380)

Oh, yeah.

Andrew Huberman (1:24:41.220)

Thank you.

Lex Fridman (1:24:42.040)

Thank you, Sergey.

Andrew Huberman (1:24:42.880)

Has that ready to go.

Lex Fridman (1:24:43.720)

See those 13.3 thousand likes?

Andrew Huberman (1:24:46.140)

One of those is mine.

Lex Fridman (1:24:48.140)

So for people who are not aware,

Andrew Huberman (1:24:49.760)

one of the days in April tweeted that Tim Dillon

Lex Fridman (1:24:52.980)

asked me to get married and I said, yes.

Andrew Huberman (1:24:55.180)

I think Tim said, the wedding will be on 6th Street

Lex Fridman (1:24:59.380)

in Austin, bring all of your weapons,

Andrew Huberman (1:25:01.280)

which of course is totally inappropriate.

Lex Fridman (1:25:03.320)

This is, I was like PG funny,

Lex Fridman (1:25:08.900)

and he's goes rated R funny right away.

Lex Fridman (1:25:12.620)

But that said, I mean, if there's anyone

Andrew Huberman (1:25:17.180)

I would like to get married with,

Lex Fridman (1:25:19.380)

it's that guy and we would do it in Austin

Lex Fridman (1:25:21.340)

and it would be epic.

Lex Fridman (1:25:24.460)

It would be like the wedding from November rain, one of the,

Andrew Huberman (1:25:31.500)

Mr. and Mrs.

Lex Fridman (1:25:32.540)

Oh, wow.

Andrew Huberman (1:25:33.380)

Oh, Mr. and Mr., I apologize.

Lex Fridman (1:25:34.340)

Wow, yeah, and you broke tradition with the jacket color.

Lex Fridman (1:25:38.820)

So it sounds to me that you are a free speech absolutist.

Lex Fridman (1:25:42.780)

I think freedom is really important

Lex Fridman (1:25:44.540)

and that includes letting people who are hateful,

Lex Fridman (1:25:48.460)

letting people who are controversial

Andrew Huberman (1:25:51.220)

have a voice on platforms.

Lex Fridman (1:25:53.140)

But it becomes, I'm not sure what exactly to think

Andrew Huberman (1:25:57.140)

because I also treasure the quiet voices

Lex Fridman (1:26:03.380)

in the back of the room.

Lex Fridman (1:26:05.540)

And sometimes the assholes silence those voices,

Lex Fridman (1:26:10.620)

meaning by being loud and obnoxious and so on,

Andrew Huberman (1:26:14.300)

it pushes away the thoughtful people.

Lex Fridman (1:26:16.460)

So I'm also a fan of creating communities.

Andrew Huberman (1:26:19.340)

Like you should be able to let people kind of

Lex Fridman (1:26:23.980)

build a community that's positive, that's loving,

Andrew Huberman (1:26:27.580)

or that's constantly trolling, or that's super hateful.

Lex Fridman (1:26:33.940)

All those communities should have a place in the world.

Lex Fridman (1:26:37.100)

But like the thing I've noticed is that

Lex Fridman (1:26:41.980)

hate can destroy, a community full of hate

Andrew Huberman (1:26:44.860)

can destroy a community full of love

Lex Fridman (1:26:46.820)

easier than a community full of love

Andrew Huberman (1:26:49.540)

can overtake one with hate.

Lex Fridman (1:26:51.020)

And so you have to kind of, I don't know exactly how,

Lex Fridman (1:26:54.020)

but create digital mechanisms that discourage

Lex Fridman (1:26:58.760)

the collision of these communities.

Andrew Huberman (1:27:00.340)

They should all have a platform and ability to speak

Lex Fridman (1:27:03.900)

to a large audience, but you have to be careful

Andrew Huberman (1:27:06.880)

to protect that like little flame of connection

Lex Fridman (1:27:11.540)

that people have.

Andrew Huberman (1:27:12.380)

Yeah, that's good, the goodness, it sounds like, I mean,

Lex Fridman (1:27:17.140)

yeah, I think in any great city like New York,

Andrew Huberman (1:27:20.220)

which I love, by the way, you wanna have a symphony

Lex Fridman (1:27:24.020)

in an opera house and you want some punk rock shows

Andrew Huberman (1:27:26.100)

happening on the Lower East Side, you want all of that.

Lex Fridman (1:27:29.540)

You just don't necessarily want them to overlap.

Andrew Huberman (1:27:32.180)

In terms of social media and then podcasts and engagement,

Lex Fridman (1:27:36.060)

one thing that I decided very early on

Andrew Huberman (1:27:38.600)

is was to encourage comments and feedback, et cetera.

Lex Fridman (1:27:41.260)

But I have in my mind what I call classroom rules.

Andrew Huberman (1:27:44.980)

You've taught in the university

Lex Fridman (1:27:46.180)

and then you teach in the university

Lex Fridman (1:27:48.040)

and you establish a certain etiquette within the classroom

Lex Fridman (1:27:51.580)

of the kinds of questions that you'll tolerate, right?

Lex Fridman (1:27:54.140)

So there's always the student that's gonna ask a question,

Lex Fridman (1:27:56.300)

which is basically a 10 minute monologue

Andrew Huberman (1:27:58.340)

about their experience that really isn't a question

Lex Fridman (1:28:00.100)

that pertains to a lot of people.

Lex Fridman (1:28:01.540)

So you politely discourage that kind of question

Lex Fridman (1:28:04.580)

and you encourage the kinds of questions

Andrew Huberman (1:28:05.820)

that are likely to be in the minds of many other students.

Lex Fridman (1:28:08.180)

It's just more efficient that way.

Andrew Huberman (1:28:09.500)

Or not politely, which is more, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:28:12.740)

I try and respond to comments and I try and respond,

Lex Fridman (1:28:15.160)

but also, you know, there's this,

Lex Fridman (1:28:16.460)

also this really interesting question.

Andrew Huberman (1:28:17.820)

Now, if you block people or restrict people,

Lex Fridman (1:28:20.620)

people think that you're somehow afraid

Andrew Huberman (1:28:22.080)

of the information that they're posting,

Lex Fridman (1:28:23.780)

but that's often not the case.

Andrew Huberman (1:28:25.580)

I'm not in the habit of blocking

Lex Fridman (1:28:26.740)

or restricting too many people.

Andrew Huberman (1:28:27.820)

Occasionally we've had to do it

Lex Fridman (1:28:29.380)

only because of how other people are being treated

Andrew Huberman (1:28:31.420)

in the comment section.

Lex Fridman (1:28:32.900)

What I can take and what I think other people deserve to take

Andrew Huberman (1:28:35.300)

are two completely different things.

Lex Fridman (1:28:37.100)

David Goggins, right, who we both know well,

Andrew Huberman (1:28:40.020)

I don't know if he still does this,

Lex Fridman (1:28:40.920)

but a few years ago, he posted something like,

Lex Fridman (1:28:42.940)

if people ask him, when do you sleep?

Lex Fridman (1:28:45.900)

He would just block them.

Andrew Huberman (1:28:48.060)

Because it wasn't consistent with what he was trying to say.

Lex Fridman (1:28:49.920)

Of course he sleeps, but it's, you know,

Andrew Huberman (1:28:51.640)

he's trying to get a particular message out.

Lex Fridman (1:28:53.300)

I think people should just understand

Lex Fridman (1:28:54.600)

that everybody's page is their own to moderate, right?

Lex Fridman (1:28:59.500)

Just like in a classroom, there are certain rules,

Andrew Huberman (1:29:02.020)

of course, of institution,

Lex Fridman (1:29:03.280)

but then you establish the etiquette

Andrew Huberman (1:29:05.140)

within the context of the kind of class.

Lex Fridman (1:29:06.660)

You know, a class about personality psychology

Andrew Huberman (1:29:09.160)

or the psychology of love,

Lex Fridman (1:29:11.380)

you're gonna have a very different range of conversations

Andrew Huberman (1:29:14.920)

than, you know, a class on, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:29:17.860)

memory and physiology.

Lex Fridman (1:29:20.140)

So I think social media is a great place for conversation,

Lex Fridman (1:29:25.320)

but it's not necessarily a great place

Andrew Huberman (1:29:26.880)

for every kind of conversation.

Lex Fridman (1:29:28.460)

Yeah, and I also just say that people that do get blocked,

Andrew Huberman (1:29:31.540)

I never, this is something I do very deliberately,

Lex Fridman (1:29:35.260)

blocked or ignored.

Andrew Huberman (1:29:37.180)

I never think poorly of them.

Lex Fridman (1:29:38.980)

I actually explicitly think,

Andrew Huberman (1:29:41.980)

if there's somebody that's like saying

Lex Fridman (1:29:44.120)

hateful things about me or whatever,

Andrew Huberman (1:29:45.780)

I always think positive thoughts.

Lex Fridman (1:29:47.540)

It's not some kind of weird guru thing,

Lex Fridman (1:29:49.680)

but just actually found that as a hack.

Lex Fridman (1:29:52.140)

I think well of them,

Lex Fridman (1:29:53.720)

and that allows me to never think of them again.

Lex Fridman (1:29:56.700)

Like I send them my love,

Lex Fridman (1:29:58.220)

and like I think this is a like fascinating human being

Lex Fridman (1:30:01.200)

with a fascinating story.

Andrew Huberman (1:30:02.820)

I would love to have time to actually learn

Lex Fridman (1:30:04.620)

about their story, but there's not enough time in the world.

Lex Fridman (1:30:07.140)

And I just think well of them and then I move on

Lex Fridman (1:30:09.660)

and enjoy a delicious meal with people that are close to me

Lex Fridman (1:30:13.460)

and I love and so on and just, and move on.

Lex Fridman (1:30:16.660)

And then never adding to the negativity of like,

Andrew Huberman (1:30:19.340)

just even in the privacy of my own mind,

Lex Fridman (1:30:21.520)

thinking a hateful thought towards them,

Andrew Huberman (1:30:23.700)

it serves no purpose whatsoever.

Lex Fridman (1:30:25.500)

Yeah, I love that about you.

Lex Fridman (1:30:27.080)

And I know that what you just said to be true,

Lex Fridman (1:30:29.540)

one of the, I think more toxic things in life

Andrew Huberman (1:30:33.940)

is what's called, you know, a vacuative projection.

Lex Fridman (1:30:37.780)

When people feel something and they try and evacuate it

Lex Fridman (1:30:40.260)

and project it onto somebody else.

Lex Fridman (1:30:41.500)

Projection is fascinating, right?

Lex Fridman (1:30:43.220)

What you essentially just said is that

Lex Fridman (1:30:44.620)

you don't accept projections.

Lex Fridman (1:30:46.700)

And in fact, you transmute them

Lex Fridman (1:30:49.020)

to put it in the language of the Buddhist, you know,

Andrew Huberman (1:30:51.320)

you transmute it into positivity.

Lex Fridman (1:30:53.300)

And in that way, you truly neutralize it and transmute it.

Andrew Huberman (1:30:58.540)

I think that if people were better understood

Lex Fridman (1:31:02.900)

when they were experiencing

Andrew Huberman (1:31:04.340)

or observing a vacuative projection,

Lex Fridman (1:31:08.400)

the world would be a much healthier and happier place.

Lex Fridman (1:31:11.580)

But it requires a certain stable internal rudder.

Lex Fridman (1:31:14.780)

And, you know, when we're tired or sick or angry,

Andrew Huberman (1:31:18.300)

you know, we're hungry, excessively hungry.

Lex Fridman (1:31:21.460)

All of us are less good at it.

Andrew Huberman (1:31:23.460)

I've been positively struck by the nature

Lex Fridman (1:31:25.580)

of most of the interactions, not just feedback,

Lex Fridman (1:31:28.580)

but my favorite thing as an educator in the classroom,

Lex Fridman (1:31:32.340)

but also on social media.

Andrew Huberman (1:31:33.440)

My absolute favorite thing is when the comments

Lex Fridman (1:31:36.340)

about other people's comments are positively reinforcing.

Lex Fridman (1:31:39.660)

So you see people having conversations within the comments

Lex Fridman (1:31:42.940)

and you realize this is like, if you, as an educator,

Andrew Huberman (1:31:45.060)

again, you know, it's fun to teach

Lex Fridman (1:31:47.020)

and it's fun to talk to the students,

Lex Fridman (1:31:48.520)

but the real pleasure is in walking by a small group

Lex Fridman (1:31:51.740)

of students on campus and hearing them talking

Andrew Huberman (1:31:54.220)

about the material, that just fills me with joy.

Lex Fridman (1:31:58.380)

And because what it means is that the ideas are reverberating

Andrew Huberman (1:32:02.700)

in their nervous systems and will eventually wick out

Lex Fridman (1:32:05.020)

to others.

Lex Fridman (1:32:06.260)

So it's not just about feedback,

Lex Fridman (1:32:07.700)

it's about a venue for parsing information.

Lex Fridman (1:32:11.120)

So you actually posted that we're gonna talk on Instagram

Lex Fridman (1:32:13.700)

and I collected a bunch of the questions,

Andrew Huberman (1:32:15.460)

which reminds me of, I have to mention Mike Jones

Lex Fridman (1:32:21.040)

and a question he asked, but also a gift he gave

Andrew Huberman (1:32:24.780)

quite a while ago, if it's okay.

Lex Fridman (1:32:26.860)

But first, a quick bathroom break.

Andrew Huberman (1:32:29.140)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:32:30.460)

We're looking at an Instagram page of Mike Jones,

Andrew Huberman (1:32:33.180)

Knife and Tool, you should check it out.

Lex Fridman (1:32:35.580)

He, Andrew gave me a gift from him,

Andrew Huberman (1:32:39.480)

that is a badass butcher knife.

Lex Fridman (1:32:44.260)

Yours is the earth, da, da, da,

Andrew Huberman (1:32:46.660)

is from If by Richard Kipling.

Lex Fridman (1:32:48.820)

Yeah, the story of this knife is kind of interesting,

Andrew Huberman (1:32:52.020)

perhaps, to people where it was,

Lex Fridman (1:32:53.740)

I was coming out here to Austin to meet with Lex

Lex Fridman (1:32:56.100)

and it was his birthday.

Lex Fridman (1:32:57.900)

I wanna get him a gift, but I didn't know what to get him.

Lex Fridman (1:33:00.140)

And I contacted this guy, Mike Jones,

Lex Fridman (1:33:02.460)

that I learned about through Joe Rogan.

Andrew Huberman (1:33:04.480)

Cause the first, remember in the old days of Joe Rogan,

Lex Fridman (1:33:08.380)

when you go on the episode afterwards,

Andrew Huberman (1:33:09.920)

you take a picture with an object.

Lex Fridman (1:33:11.660)

So it was like Elon with a flamethrower

Andrew Huberman (1:33:13.780)

or people would have the ax.

Lex Fridman (1:33:14.760)

I picked up this Bushwhacker hatchet thing.

Lex Fridman (1:33:18.820)

And I was like, I love this thing.

Lex Fridman (1:33:21.100)

And Joe said, oh yeah, you should check out

Andrew Huberman (1:33:22.700)

Mike Jones's work, he does these beautiful knives.

Lex Fridman (1:33:25.500)

And so then I heard your episode with Joe

Lex Fridman (1:33:29.180)

and you recited a poem at the end.

Lex Fridman (1:33:31.140)

It was right after your grandmother died.

Lex Fridman (1:33:33.320)

And there's a line in that poem from If

Lex Fridman (1:33:36.880)

that Mike engraved on that knife for you.

Lex Fridman (1:33:39.540)

So he makes these by hand.

Lex Fridman (1:33:41.740)

I love, the old days, before the podcast and all that.

Andrew Huberman (1:33:47.980)

That's the first appearance.

Lex Fridman (1:33:48.820)

That was the first time on there.

Lex Fridman (1:33:50.620)

And it was a lot of fun in the old studio in Los Angeles.

Lex Fridman (1:33:55.380)

And yeah, Mike makes these beautiful knives.

Lex Fridman (1:33:59.180)

And I have this, I just have a great admiration

Lex Fridman (1:34:02.340)

for crafts people.

Lex Fridman (1:34:04.540)

So, do you use it?

Lex Fridman (1:34:06.260)

Do you cut your one meal a day steaks with it?

Andrew Huberman (1:34:08.540)

I feel.

Lex Fridman (1:34:10.140)

Are you taking it with you on your travels?

Andrew Huberman (1:34:11.660)

Exactly.

Lex Fridman (1:34:12.820)

I actually used to keep it on the table,

Lex Fridman (1:34:15.260)

but I thought it really intimidates guests.

Lex Fridman (1:34:18.340)

A little bit.

Lex Fridman (1:34:19.280)

But like.

Lex Fridman (1:34:20.120)

You can put it on their side.

Andrew Huberman (1:34:20.940)

Yeah, right.

Lex Fridman (1:34:21.900)

It's like, oops.

Lex Fridman (1:34:22.780)

It's trust, right?

Lex Fridman (1:34:24.980)

What's the story?

Andrew Huberman (1:34:26.300)

I mean, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:34:27.460)

But it's, cause it's not,

Andrew Huberman (1:34:30.620)

it's quite bad ass if I may say.

Lex Fridman (1:34:33.580)

So the craftsmanship is obvious, but also it is a knife.

Andrew Huberman (1:34:37.860)

It's got some like Dexter like qualities to it.

Lex Fridman (1:34:40.140)

Yeah.

Andrew Huberman (1:34:40.980)

It looks like it's designed to cleave through a limb.

Lex Fridman (1:34:43.660)

If I had like a family or something where people,

Andrew Huberman (1:34:46.040)

there's nothing about this place that softens your kind

Lex Fridman (1:34:49.940)

of sense that this person might not murder me.

Andrew Huberman (1:34:54.620)

Let's put it differently.

Lex Fridman (1:34:56.780)

This place could use a woman's touch.

Andrew Huberman (1:34:58.900)

That's one way to put it.

Lex Fridman (1:35:00.820)

If it's okay, let me,

Andrew Huberman (1:35:01.820)

because it is a poem I go to often actually.

Lex Fridman (1:35:09.140)

You mentioned reciting some lyrics

Lex Fridman (1:35:10.760)

and I'm actually gonna go back to that at some point

Lex Fridman (1:35:13.260)

to get a few songs that touch you.

Lex Fridman (1:35:17.380)

But this is one of the things I go to often.

Lex Fridman (1:35:21.480)

I'll read it to remind myself.

Andrew Huberman (1:35:23.200)

It's advice from a father to son.

Lex Fridman (1:35:27.940)

And it's a kind of mantra that it's just nice to live by.

Lex Fridman (1:35:31.100)

So if it's okay with me,

Lex Fridman (1:35:31.940)

just use this opportunity one more time.

Andrew Huberman (1:35:34.260)

Read If by Roger Kipling.

Lex Fridman (1:35:36.520)

If you can keep your head when all about you

Andrew Huberman (1:35:38.820)

are losing theirs and blaming it on you,

Lex Fridman (1:35:41.540)

if you can trust yourself when all men doubt you

Lex Fridman (1:35:44.300)

but make allowance for their doubting too,

Lex Fridman (1:35:47.020)

if you can wait to not be tired by waiting

Andrew Huberman (1:35:49.940)

or being lied about don't deal in lies

Lex Fridman (1:35:53.020)

or being hated don't give way to hating

Lex Fridman (1:35:55.940)

and yet don't look too good nor talk too wise.

Lex Fridman (1:35:59.740)

If you can dream and not make dreams your master,

Andrew Huberman (1:36:02.740)

if you can think and not make thoughts your aim,

Lex Fridman (1:36:05.860)

if you can meet with triumph and disaster

Lex Fridman (1:36:08.300)

and treat those two imposters just the same,

Lex Fridman (1:36:11.420)

if you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken

Andrew Huberman (1:36:14.180)

twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools

Lex Fridman (1:36:17.020)

or watch the things you gave your life to broken

Lex Fridman (1:36:20.660)

and stoop and build them up with worn out tools,

Lex Fridman (1:36:24.420)

if you can make one heap of all your winnings

Lex Fridman (1:36:26.980)

and risk it all on one turn of pitch and toss

Lex Fridman (1:36:30.740)

and lose and start again at your beginnings

Lex Fridman (1:36:34.180)

and never breathe a word about your loss,

Lex Fridman (1:36:37.180)

if you can force your heart to nerve and sinew

Andrew Huberman (1:36:40.000)

to serve your turn long after they're gone

Lex Fridman (1:36:42.940)

and so hold on when there's nothing in you

Andrew Huberman (1:36:46.220)

except the will which says to them, hold on.

Lex Fridman (1:36:49.300)

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,

Andrew Huberman (1:36:53.240)

I like this one, and walk with kings

Lex Fridman (1:36:55.680)

nor lose the common touch, if neither foes

Andrew Huberman (1:36:58.600)

nor loving friends can hurt you,

Lex Fridman (1:37:00.680)

if all men count with you but none too much,

Andrew Huberman (1:37:05.580)

if you can fill the unforgiving minute

Lex Fridman (1:37:07.980)

with 60 seconds worth of distance run,

Andrew Huberman (1:37:12.200)

yours is the earth and everything that's in it

Lex Fridman (1:37:15.680)

and which is more, you'll be a man, my son.

Andrew Huberman (1:37:19.080)

Thank you, Andrew, thank you, thank you, Mike,

Lex Fridman (1:37:20.920)

for the knife, it's a, I don't know.

Andrew Huberman (1:37:23.560)

It's an important poem.

Lex Fridman (1:37:24.880)

And engraved in it, yeah, it's yours.

Andrew Huberman (1:37:28.080)

Yours is the earth and everything that's in it.

Lex Fridman (1:37:31.320)

We toiled over what to engrave,

Lex Fridman (1:37:34.160)

and then finally I just said, Mike,

Lex Fridman (1:37:36.320)

just pick something that speaks to you,

Andrew Huberman (1:37:38.860)

you're the craftsman, and so he selected that.

Lex Fridman (1:37:41.120)

There's certain ways to pull yourself in that book.

Andrew Huberman (1:37:42.920)

Actually, Karl Deisseroth, he wrote the book Projections.

Lex Fridman (1:37:47.920)

One of my favorite, first of all,

Andrew Huberman (1:37:50.080)

just as you said, incredible writer.

Lex Fridman (1:37:53.080)

Just, I mean, if you wrote fiction,

Andrew Huberman (1:37:57.900)

if you wrote those kinds of things,

Lex Fridman (1:37:59.000)

I'm curious to see where he goes with his writing.

Andrew Huberman (1:38:01.600)

It's very interesting.

Lex Fridman (1:38:02.440)

I think that book took him 10 years to write,

Andrew Huberman (1:38:04.880)

which is vindication for me and for you

Lex Fridman (1:38:06.520)

because we're both supposed to write books

Lex Fridman (1:38:07.860)

and we haven't done it.

Lex Fridman (1:38:10.680)

Yeah, I mean, in some sense,

Lex Fridman (1:38:13.600)

your first book will have decades in it, right?

Lex Fridman (1:38:20.700)

Even if you just take a half a year to write it.

Andrew Huberman (1:38:24.840)

It's like the first book, like the first album for a musician,

Lex Fridman (1:38:27.300)

I mean, it's a journey.

Lex Fridman (1:38:30.360)

But he uses poems and quotes in there really well.

Lex Fridman (1:38:35.140)

It's a beautiful book.

Andrew Huberman (1:38:36.040)

It's a dreamy book.

Lex Fridman (1:38:36.860)

I think when people hear that it's a book about neuroscience,

Andrew Huberman (1:38:39.560)

they think they're gonna get a textbook

Lex Fridman (1:38:41.240)

or a protocols book or something, it's nothing like that.

Lex Fridman (1:38:44.200)

But it really is a deep dive into the mind

Lex Fridman (1:38:46.500)

of the psychiatrist and the researcher

Lex Fridman (1:38:48.140)

and so much feeling and compassion.

Lex Fridman (1:38:50.600)

I love that you love poetry.

Andrew Huberman (1:38:51.880)

I mean, I didn't know that until I saw you

Lex Fridman (1:38:53.480)

on Rogan Read If and I'm not a very rabid consumer of poetry

Lex Fridman (1:39:00.760)

but I'm a big Wendell Berry fan.

Lex Fridman (1:39:05.640)

And I try and read a poem once every few days.

Andrew Huberman (1:39:10.640)

Also, I think if is a tough act to follow.

Lex Fridman (1:39:13.400)

Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Andrew Huberman (1:39:14.760)

I mean, that's the richness and the, I mean,

Lex Fridman (1:39:18.320)

you said every third line in there is something

Andrew Huberman (1:39:21.480)

that you would consider your life well lived

Lex Fridman (1:39:25.440)

if you said that, right?

Lex Fridman (1:39:27.760)

What about the preparation for the solo podcast?

Lex Fridman (1:39:31.440)

You said you listen to certain songs,

Andrew Huberman (1:39:34.120)

you sing or recite the lyrics to certain songs.

Lex Fridman (1:39:37.200)

Is there ones that kind of come to mind

Lex Fridman (1:39:39.320)

that are interesting?

Lex Fridman (1:39:40.680)

Um, yeah, I've always been very lyrics driven

Lex Fridman (1:39:43.640)

and I don't understand music.

Lex Fridman (1:39:45.400)

I've talked to Rick about this.

Andrew Huberman (1:39:46.600)

I think I've talked to you about this a little bit.

Lex Fridman (1:39:47.720)

I don't really understand, I mean,

Andrew Huberman (1:39:50.840)

I can hear music and like it,

Lex Fridman (1:39:53.920)

but I don't really understand the structure of it.

Lex Fridman (1:39:56.580)

But lyrics make a lot of sense to me.

Lex Fridman (1:39:57.420)

But does it touch your soul, music, or is it the lyrics?

Andrew Huberman (1:40:00.400)

It's the lyrics, it's not the instrumentals.

Lex Fridman (1:40:02.280)

So I'm a huge Joe Strummer fan

Lex Fridman (1:40:04.080)

and I'm gonna lose punk points for saying this

Lex Fridman (1:40:05.880)

but I'm not a Clash fan.

Andrew Huberman (1:40:07.320)

Oh, okay.

Lex Fridman (1:40:08.280)

So he obviously is best known for the Clash.

Andrew Huberman (1:40:10.240)

Most Clash songs start off great

Lex Fridman (1:40:12.640)

and then after about 30 seconds, at least in my mind,

Andrew Huberman (1:40:15.520)

just kind of disintegrate into a bunch of mush.

Lex Fridman (1:40:17.840)

Whereas Joe Strummer and the Mescaleros,

Andrew Huberman (1:40:21.100)

which is what he did as an adult,

Lex Fridman (1:40:23.320)

as a later and some of his solo work,

Andrew Huberman (1:40:25.880)

he actually, Rick produced some work

Lex Fridman (1:40:28.000)

that he did with Johnny Cash.

Andrew Huberman (1:40:30.240)

Rick pulled Johnny Cash out of,

Lex Fridman (1:40:31.920)

essentially out of retirement

Lex Fridman (1:40:33.060)

and had him do his albums before he died.

Lex Fridman (1:40:35.920)

And so anything that Strummer did,

Andrew Huberman (1:40:38.720)

there's a favorite song of mine by Strummer,

Lex Fridman (1:40:40.920)

it's called Burning Lights.

Andrew Huberman (1:40:43.040)

You can find it, there is an album now

Lex Fridman (1:40:44.680)

where you can find it or Tennessee Rain

Andrew Huberman (1:40:46.360)

or some of these things that he did,

Lex Fridman (1:40:47.320)

which are a little bit more folky, so not really punk.

Lex Fridman (1:40:49.920)

So I love that song.

Lex Fridman (1:40:52.160)

Bunch of songs by Rancid that I love.

Andrew Huberman (1:40:54.440)

Yeah, Rancid is great.

Lex Fridman (1:40:55.880)

And then if I listen to instrumentals,

Andrew Huberman (1:40:57.920)

I do, I'll listen to classical piano.

Lex Fridman (1:41:01.800)

Some dreams are made for children.

Lex Fridman (1:41:04.400)

But it's not gonna sound good as a poem.

Lex Fridman (1:41:06.080)

They can play the, people can play the song.

Andrew Huberman (1:41:07.720)

Play the song, okay.

Lex Fridman (1:41:08.720)

Yeah, so I'll, I mean, cause it has to be something,

Andrew Huberman (1:41:12.880)

Joe's voice is what makes the song.

Lex Fridman (1:41:14.880)

Got it.

Andrew Huberman (1:41:15.880)

Joe's voice is what makes the song.

Lex Fridman (1:41:17.120)

But yeah, that song Burning Lights

Andrew Huberman (1:41:18.760)

from I Hired a Contract Killer.

Lex Fridman (1:41:21.800)

I don't know, the licks are pretty good.

Andrew Huberman (1:41:23.080)

They're pretty good.

Lex Fridman (1:41:23.920)

I mean, Joe is an amazing writer, right?

Andrew Huberman (1:41:25.480)

I'm also a big Bob Dylan fan.

Lex Fridman (1:41:27.920)

Glenn Gould for classical piano.

Andrew Huberman (1:41:30.040)

He was at Asperger's, and actually I think

Lex Fridman (1:41:33.360)

you can hear him grunting, he had a Tourette's like tick.

Lex Fridman (1:41:36.800)

And I learned about Glenn Gould from Oliver Sacks.

Lex Fridman (1:41:40.640)

So I'll listen to any number of things.

Andrew Huberman (1:41:42.080)

It depends on my mood.

Lex Fridman (1:41:43.040)

If I'm feeling a little more tired

Lex Fridman (1:41:44.200)

and I need to be amped up,

Lex Fridman (1:41:45.680)

I'll listen to something that's a little louder and faster.

Andrew Huberman (1:41:48.040)

If I'm feeling kind of keyed up

Lex Fridman (1:41:49.560)

and I need to bring the cadence down a little bit,

Andrew Huberman (1:41:53.080)

then I'll listen to something a little mellower, poppier.

Lex Fridman (1:41:55.880)

I love bands like, yeah, I'm a big fan

Andrew Huberman (1:42:00.120)

of this British pop band called James.

Lex Fridman (1:42:02.880)

There's like 20 bands named James.

Lex Fridman (1:42:04.760)

But this one, you know, and again,

Lex Fridman (1:42:06.360)

I lose punk points for saying that, but they're amazing.

Lex Fridman (1:42:09.320)

And best luck.

Lex Fridman (1:42:10.160)

I think you've accumulated enough points

Andrew Huberman (1:42:11.320)

where you can afford to lose a few.

Lex Fridman (1:42:13.760)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:42:15.120)

But in any case, yeah, music and poetry are,

Lex Fridman (1:42:18.800)

they're the subconscious, right?

Andrew Huberman (1:42:21.880)

I mean, if you think about a Bob Dylan song

Lex Fridman (1:42:23.600)

or a really good Strummer song or a poem

Andrew Huberman (1:42:25.960)

that the words don't mean anything when read linearly,

Lex Fridman (1:42:29.080)

but they make you feel something,

Andrew Huberman (1:42:30.660)

they're tapping into the subconscious.

Lex Fridman (1:42:32.880)

That's really what they're doing.

Andrew Huberman (1:42:34.120)

They're pulling on neural threads of emotion

Lex Fridman (1:42:38.440)

based on either timbre or cadence

Andrew Huberman (1:42:41.280)

or something that's independent of the word structure.

Lex Fridman (1:42:45.480)

And that to me is the beauty of music and poetry.

Andrew Huberman (1:42:48.640)

I often say Johnny Cash's version, Hurt,

Lex Fridman (1:42:51.720)

that I say would be my favorite song ever.

Andrew Huberman (1:42:55.040)

Well, he did a Nine Inch Nails song.

Lex Fridman (1:42:56.680)

He did, he covered.

Andrew Huberman (1:42:57.520)

I think Rick produced that.

Lex Fridman (1:42:58.840)

Pretty sure he produced that.

Andrew Huberman (1:42:59.680)

He produced it.

Lex Fridman (1:43:01.080)

I mean, he did, like Rick produced the,

Andrew Huberman (1:43:04.120)

he pulled Johnny Cash out from a dark place

Lex Fridman (1:43:08.000)

to produce something that, I mean,

Andrew Huberman (1:43:11.040)

when you look back as one of the great things ever in music,

Lex Fridman (1:43:15.440)

which are these like haunting covers

Andrew Huberman (1:43:19.320)

of certain songs and originals.

Lex Fridman (1:43:21.960)

Johnny Cash and Joe Strummer did a version

Andrew Huberman (1:43:25.160)

of Redemption song together that Rick produced,

Lex Fridman (1:43:30.040)

which is on loop in my house sometimes,

Andrew Huberman (1:43:33.800)

for hours and hours.

Lex Fridman (1:43:35.560)

That song is fascinating.

Andrew Huberman (1:43:37.000)

Bob Marley's song.

Lex Fridman (1:43:38.720)

Song by Johnny Cash and Joe Strummer.

Andrew Huberman (1:43:41.200)

You know, sometimes I think what it would be

Lex Fridman (1:43:43.200)

to be a fly on the wall when these guys were doing this.

Andrew Huberman (1:43:46.120)

These songs of freedom.

Lex Fridman (1:43:48.520)

There's certain songs where you're like,

Andrew Huberman (1:43:51.140)

it elicits an emotion that's unlike anything else.

Lex Fridman (1:43:58.660)

I mean, I was trying to figure that out with Rick, too.

Andrew Huberman (1:44:01.980)

Like, there's certain songs that make you wanna pull out

Lex Fridman (1:44:04.620)

over to the side of the road and just weep

Andrew Huberman (1:44:07.340)

or just get inspired to just get shit done

Lex Fridman (1:44:11.660)

or all of those kinds of things.

Andrew Huberman (1:44:13.260)

Remember your family, the people you've lost,

Lex Fridman (1:44:16.620)

all that kind of stuff.

Andrew Huberman (1:44:17.460)

When you hurt, I hurt myself today

Lex Fridman (1:44:20.980)

to see if I still feel.

Andrew Huberman (1:44:22.940)

There's certain songs that I've loved so much

Lex Fridman (1:44:26.080)

that I actually won't play them during a relationship

Andrew Huberman (1:44:29.380)

until the relationship passes a certain duration

Lex Fridman (1:44:32.660)

because if you start sharing in those experiences

Andrew Huberman (1:44:35.560)

with somebody and it starts to become associated

Lex Fridman (1:44:38.020)

with the relationship, you braiding it in

Andrew Huberman (1:44:40.180)

with the dopamine of love and that relationship ends,

Lex Fridman (1:44:43.860)

the song is forever tainted.

Andrew Huberman (1:44:45.480)

There are certain songs that I will never play

Lex Fridman (1:44:47.220)

in the company of anybody else.

Andrew Huberman (1:44:49.260)

They're mine.

Lex Fridman (1:44:50.620)

I just, it's too risky to give those up.

Lex Fridman (1:44:54.980)

And you know, and I think that.

Lex Fridman (1:44:58.900)

And there's like levels.

Andrew Huberman (1:45:00.700)

There are levels, right, exactly.

Lex Fridman (1:45:04.020)

We'll leave it at that.

Andrew Huberman (1:45:05.820)

Yeah, and the interesting thing about this kind

Lex Fridman (1:45:10.020)

of preparing for the solo episode,

Andrew Huberman (1:45:14.060)

just interacting with Rick about that process

Lex Fridman (1:45:17.140)

of preparation and because you mentioned with interviews.

Lex Fridman (1:45:23.420)

By the way, are you do solo, solo?

Lex Fridman (1:45:25.140)

Are you the only one in the room or?

Andrew Huberman (1:45:26.900)

No, well, it used to be Rob, my producer,

Lex Fridman (1:45:30.180)

who I should say, you know, he's really the person

Andrew Huberman (1:45:33.900)

behind the podcast.

Lex Fridman (1:45:35.540)

I mean, first of all, we're equal partners.

Andrew Huberman (1:45:37.540)

You're just a pretty face.

Lex Fridman (1:45:40.180)

We're just, and I'm aging, man.

Andrew Huberman (1:45:41.900)

Not to say I love him.

Lex Fridman (1:45:43.340)

I actually really, I like aging.

Andrew Huberman (1:45:45.500)

It's weird.

Lex Fridman (1:45:46.340)

I'm like friends with David Sinclair

Lex Fridman (1:45:47.900)

and it's all about not aging.

Lex Fridman (1:45:49.540)

I don't wanna live past 90, 95.

Andrew Huberman (1:45:52.540)

I'm just trying to get as much done as I can

Lex Fridman (1:45:54.340)

in this short life and do it right

Lex Fridman (1:45:56.020)

and with integrity and heart and accuracy, you know.

Lex Fridman (1:46:00.820)

And you like the stages.

Andrew Huberman (1:46:02.460)

Oh yeah, if you read Erickson's stages of development,

Lex Fridman (1:46:05.340)

you realize that every stage of life

Andrew Huberman (1:46:08.620)

is a set of neural circuits trying to resolve a problem.

Lex Fridman (1:46:12.140)

And if you're gonna try and avoid that progression

Andrew Huberman (1:46:16.140)

sure, you might live longer, but you know,

Lex Fridman (1:46:19.820)

it's sort of like saying like,

Lex Fridman (1:46:21.140)

do you wanna go win the high school jujitsu championship?

Lex Fridman (1:46:25.380)

No, you graduated high school a long time ago, right?

Lex Fridman (1:46:28.540)

So I actually look forward to the future,

Lex Fridman (1:46:32.140)

even if it means that I'm starting to shift.

Andrew Huberman (1:46:34.980)

I think that my biology will shift.

Lex Fridman (1:46:37.060)

Oh, you know, I'll fight that.

Andrew Huberman (1:46:37.900)

I try and take good care of myself,

Lex Fridman (1:46:39.140)

but I don't wanna get sick.

Lex Fridman (1:46:41.140)

I don't wanna suffer, who does?

Lex Fridman (1:46:43.060)

But I'm embracing this whole developmental arc.

Andrew Huberman (1:46:46.580)

I mean, we're not children and then adults.

Lex Fridman (1:46:49.780)

Our entire life is one long developmental arc.

Lex Fridman (1:46:52.820)

And if you fail to embrace that,

Lex Fridman (1:46:54.780)

you fail to extract the richness

Andrew Huberman (1:46:56.420)

of what it is to be a human being.

Lex Fridman (1:46:58.620)

So in any event, I record Rob is in the room.

Andrew Huberman (1:47:05.780)

I'll sometimes stop and ask him for feedback

Lex Fridman (1:47:08.060)

if I feel like something's not landing right.

Lex Fridman (1:47:09.740)

So he gives, if it's clear, he'll let me know.

Lex Fridman (1:47:11.580)

If it's not clear, he'll let me know.

Andrew Huberman (1:47:12.820)

Excuse me.

Lex Fridman (1:47:13.660)

And then, you know, Costello used to be in the room.

Andrew Huberman (1:47:15.580)

The early days of the podcast, which weren't that long ago,

Lex Fridman (1:47:19.300)

he's snoring at my feet and farting

Lex Fridman (1:47:22.180)

and smelling up the room.

Lex Fridman (1:47:23.180)

And we're all just kind of like gasping for air.

Andrew Huberman (1:47:24.980)

He's a bulldog.

Lex Fridman (1:47:25.820)

That's what they do.

Andrew Huberman (1:47:26.860)

With him gone, it changed.

Lex Fridman (1:47:28.900)

You know, the whole thing changed.

Andrew Huberman (1:47:30.180)

There will be another dog soon.

Lex Fridman (1:47:32.700)

And as you know, I've been moving

Andrew Huberman (1:47:35.300)

through that grief process,

Lex Fridman (1:47:36.540)

but having him there gave me a levity that I miss.

Lex Fridman (1:47:41.540)

But in my mind, he's still there.

Lex Fridman (1:47:43.100)

Yeah, he's still there.

Andrew Huberman (1:47:43.940)

Yeah, he's still there.

Lex Fridman (1:47:44.900)

So, and you know, in time there'll be another dog

Lex Fridman (1:47:47.740)

and who knows, you know, maybe there'll be a dog

Lex Fridman (1:47:49.780)

and a couple of infants running around,

Lex Fridman (1:47:51.300)

but that would be more distracting.

Lex Fridman (1:47:52.820)

So, but it's, there's no podcast that exists

Andrew Huberman (1:47:58.020)

just because of the podcaster.

Lex Fridman (1:47:59.540)

This is true for Joe, this is true for your podcast,

Andrew Huberman (1:48:01.820)

for me, that there's, it's not just a staff

Lex Fridman (1:48:03.860)

of people to post stuff.

Andrew Huberman (1:48:05.220)

That's just the top level contour.

Lex Fridman (1:48:07.060)

There's the constant feedback and iteration

Andrew Huberman (1:48:09.220)

of what you want it to become

Lex Fridman (1:48:11.620)

and trying to hold on to something

Andrew Huberman (1:48:14.540)

that's essential along the way.

Lex Fridman (1:48:16.540)

Cause everything has to evolve,

Lex Fridman (1:48:17.620)

but you can't lose the essence of something.

Lex Fridman (1:48:20.460)

Anytime a company or brand or a course

Andrew Huberman (1:48:24.100)

or a scientist has done that, it just ends up terrible.

Lex Fridman (1:48:27.820)

It just is a, you know, it becomes

Andrew Huberman (1:48:29.180)

like a Senator version of itself.

Lex Fridman (1:48:31.380)

So to Rick is very, the power of the people in the room

Andrew Huberman (1:48:35.660)

is great to inspire and to destroy.

Lex Fridman (1:48:39.700)

So you have to be extremely careful

Andrew Huberman (1:48:42.140)

with the selection of people that are in the room.

Lex Fridman (1:48:44.460)

To me, I never really thought of it that way.

Andrew Huberman (1:48:46.540)

I thought only positive things can happen.

Lex Fridman (1:48:50.980)

Oh, by adding people in the room?

Andrew Huberman (1:48:51.900)

By adding people in the room.

Lex Fridman (1:48:52.740)

Oh, I think if there were an audience in the room for,

Andrew Huberman (1:48:55.300)

well, you know what, someday I'd love

Lex Fridman (1:48:56.540)

to do a live podcast with you.

Andrew Huberman (1:48:59.420)

I saw you doing like a couple of live things,

Lex Fridman (1:49:01.980)

which is great that you're paving the way there to try.

Andrew Huberman (1:49:04.380)

Well, we did one, I went up to University

Lex Fridman (1:49:06.140)

of British Columbia and did a lecture on a college campus.

Lex Fridman (1:49:11.700)

And one of the more gratifying things that happened

Lex Fridman (1:49:13.780)

is this kid, he's in his early twenties, I think,

Andrew Huberman (1:49:16.060)

stood up and said, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:49:17.580)

I've never been on a college campus.

Andrew Huberman (1:49:19.740)

I didn't think I could go onto a college campus.

Lex Fridman (1:49:22.140)

And that still rings in my mind.

Andrew Huberman (1:49:23.500)

Whoever you are out there, that meant so much to me.

Lex Fridman (1:49:25.340)

Cause I was like, yes, there was something about that to me.

Andrew Huberman (1:49:27.740)

I was like, okay, this, it made sense to come all the way

Lex Fridman (1:49:30.300)

up here and do this in person.

Andrew Huberman (1:49:31.620)

Cause you can get out to a lot more people online.

Lex Fridman (1:49:34.700)

Public speaking events,

Andrew Huberman (1:49:35.660)

it's not like it's that lucrative or anything.

Lex Fridman (1:49:37.580)

I mean, unless you're whatever,

Andrew Huberman (1:49:39.300)

you're a famous celebrity or politician or something,

Lex Fridman (1:49:41.780)

I'm sure there are people that do well with it,

Lex Fridman (1:49:43.120)

but that's not what it's about for us.

Lex Fridman (1:49:44.700)

It's really about being able to connect with people

Andrew Huberman (1:49:47.260)

in a different venue and for interactions like that.

Lex Fridman (1:49:50.740)

I don't know how many of them we will do,

Lex Fridman (1:49:53.700)

but I'm curious to see how it goes,

Lex Fridman (1:49:55.500)

but I'd love to do a podcast with you.

Andrew Huberman (1:49:57.940)

Is it energizing? My fear is the fear of the introvert

Lex Fridman (1:50:03.780)

is that I don't know if I can handle so much love

Lex Fridman (1:50:08.020)

and fascinating people all around.

Lex Fridman (1:50:11.940)

It's like, I don't know.

Andrew Huberman (1:50:14.020)

Well, we'll invite a few haters too.

Lex Fridman (1:50:16.180)

Well, yes, but I love the haters too, but I don't know.

Andrew Huberman (1:50:19.900)

It makes me nervous.

Lex Fridman (1:50:20.860)

Cause Jordan Peterson is currently on tour.

Andrew Huberman (1:50:23.140)

I got a chance to hang out with him.

Lex Fridman (1:50:24.460)

Oh right, he does a lot of live speaking.

Andrew Huberman (1:50:28.180)

Yeah, he's now on tour where he does like every other day.

Lex Fridman (1:50:33.300)

But he doesn't have any small kids at home anymore.

Lex Fridman (1:50:35.460)

So you can't do that.

Lex Fridman (1:50:36.580)

So yeah, you should do it before you have a fan.

Andrew Huberman (1:50:38.180)

It's also exhausting.

Lex Fridman (1:50:39.020)

I mean, I'm just speaking from an athlete perspective,

Andrew Huberman (1:50:42.380)

like if you're Mick Jagger with the Rolling Stones,

Lex Fridman (1:50:45.980)

it's just physically, I mean, you have to speak potentially

Andrew Huberman (1:50:50.980)

for two hours, then off stage, like hanging out with people.

Lex Fridman (1:50:56.620)

It's a lot of hours.

Andrew Huberman (1:50:58.460)

It's a lot of hours to stay focused,

Lex Fridman (1:51:00.020)

to keep finding your place of like calmness and excitement.

Andrew Huberman (1:51:04.460)

Well, and you're staying in hotels,

Lex Fridman (1:51:05.700)

your circadian rhythm is disrupted.

Andrew Huberman (1:51:07.540)

You're not getting your like cold and sauna

Lex Fridman (1:51:09.420)

and your workout every day.

Andrew Huberman (1:51:10.380)

Your food isn't optimal.

Lex Fridman (1:51:12.780)

I think done in patches, I could enjoy it

Andrew Huberman (1:51:15.620)

because it's fun to meet people from different places.

Lex Fridman (1:51:17.220)

I'm doing a public lecture in Copenhagen

Andrew Huberman (1:51:19.900)

for the Lundbeck Foundation in June, June 3rd.

Lex Fridman (1:51:22.820)

And that one is particularly gratifying for me

Andrew Huberman (1:51:25.020)

because the Lundbeck Foundation is an academic foundation.

Lex Fridman (1:51:27.580)

So the fact that, and then so when they invited,

Andrew Huberman (1:51:29.500)

I asked, do you want me to talk about what my lab does

Lex Fridman (1:51:31.740)

or do you want me to talk about the stuff on the podcast?

Andrew Huberman (1:51:33.580)

They're like, no, no, not your lab.

Lex Fridman (1:51:35.500)

We want to hear about this, like health stuff

Lex Fridman (1:51:37.460)

and the stuff that we cover on the podcast.

Lex Fridman (1:51:39.380)

So that was amusing to me and tells me that things

Andrew Huberman (1:51:43.300)

are changing now.

Lex Fridman (1:51:44.140)

I think 2020 and 2021 revealed a lot of things

Andrew Huberman (1:51:47.180)

about people to ourselves.

Lex Fridman (1:51:50.060)

But one thing that it made very clear

Andrew Huberman (1:51:52.020)

is that there's an enormous appetite for tools

Lex Fridman (1:51:55.700)

for mental and physical health,

Lex Fridman (1:51:56.740)

but also understanding about science

Lex Fridman (1:51:58.100)

and how science is done.

Lex Fridman (1:51:59.580)

So thanks to you, again, I'm not saying this to flatter you.

Lex Fridman (1:52:02.420)

It's true gratitude.

Andrew Huberman (1:52:03.740)

There's now a runway for scientists to talk to people.

Lex Fridman (1:52:07.300)

I mean, you had the, I always forget this guy's name,

Andrew Huberman (1:52:09.060)

the virus guy from Columbia.

Lex Fridman (1:52:10.940)

It's a wrecking yellow.

Lex Fridman (1:52:12.140)

Yeah, amazing, right?

Lex Fridman (1:52:13.340)

I mean, forgetting the controversy around all the stuff

Andrew Huberman (1:52:16.460)

of 2020, 21.

Lex Fridman (1:52:17.500)

I mean, he is an encyclopedia of all things virology.

Andrew Huberman (1:52:21.860)

Yeah, people should listen to his podcast

Lex Fridman (1:52:24.460)

this week in virology.

Andrew Huberman (1:52:25.660)

He's also an incredible lecturer and educator.

Lex Fridman (1:52:28.140)

It's fascinating.

Andrew Huberman (1:52:30.340)

It's fascinating when people take again that leap

Lex Fridman (1:52:33.580)

of putting all that education online.

Andrew Huberman (1:52:36.060)

That's non controversial at all.

Lex Fridman (1:52:39.220)

It's like everybody there, people should go listen to him

Andrew Huberman (1:52:43.300)

for the most part in terms of, at his best, at least.

Lex Fridman (1:52:47.580)

There's no politics in it.

Andrew Huberman (1:52:48.780)

There's none of that.

Lex Fridman (1:52:50.140)

No, he's a virus jockey.

Andrew Huberman (1:52:51.660)

He likes playing around with bacteria and viruses and.

Lex Fridman (1:52:55.700)

But that said, molecular biology.

Andrew Huberman (1:52:57.820)

We all say stuff carelessly all the time.

Lex Fridman (1:53:00.480)

So he gets in a bit of trouble on some of the things

Andrew Huberman (1:53:02.700)

you've said about like dismissing lab leak theory.

Lex Fridman (1:53:06.500)

Like, there's no way.

Andrew Huberman (1:53:07.940)

He dismisses that.

Lex Fridman (1:53:08.780)

Yeah, but not, he's not making,

Andrew Huberman (1:53:10.940)

like folks, there's a difference when you say stuff

Lex Fridman (1:53:16.580)

like off the cuff and when you say stuff

Andrew Huberman (1:53:20.820)

that's like courts your principles

Lex Fridman (1:53:22.340)

and you've thought about it for a very long time.

Andrew Huberman (1:53:25.060)

You talking for hours, for hundreds of hours

Lex Fridman (1:53:28.340)

and you can just say stuff.

Andrew Huberman (1:53:29.660)

You could just say your opinions.

Lex Fridman (1:53:32.860)

Will Smith slapped.

Andrew Huberman (1:53:34.780)

I was wondering, okay, wait,

Lex Fridman (1:53:36.020)

how long have we been recording?

Andrew Huberman (1:53:37.180)

I was wondering how long it was gonna take us

Lex Fridman (1:53:38.580)

before someone talked about Ukraine.

Andrew Huberman (1:53:40.300)

No, no, Will Smith.

Lex Fridman (1:53:41.340)

I was wondering whether or not we'd make it the end.

Andrew Huberman (1:53:43.240)

I had it planned.

Lex Fridman (1:53:45.020)

I was literally in the back of my mind.

Andrew Huberman (1:53:46.940)

I had it planned that at the end,

Lex Fridman (1:53:48.420)

if we didn't talk about the Will Smith, Chris Rock thing,

Andrew Huberman (1:53:50.860)

that I was gonna say, it's amazing.

Lex Fridman (1:53:52.920)

This is the first conversation to happen

Andrew Huberman (1:53:54.580)

in a long time where it wasn't mentioned.

Lex Fridman (1:53:58.040)

Oh, no.

Andrew Huberman (1:53:59.460)

No, do not pull it up.

Lex Fridman (1:54:01.020)

We don't need to see it.

Andrew Huberman (1:54:01.860)

We don't need to see it.

Lex Fridman (1:54:02.680)

Here we go.

Andrew Huberman (1:54:03.520)

It revealed some interesting things

Lex Fridman (1:54:04.340)

about human beings, impulse control and lack thereof.

Andrew Huberman (1:54:08.900)

But, you know, oh my goodness.

Lex Fridman (1:54:11.760)

Chris Rock has a material for the rest of his career.

Andrew Huberman (1:54:13.940)

Yeah, I think he's not short on material.

Lex Fridman (1:54:16.620)

But I do, see, if I knew what I wanted to tweet,

Andrew Huberman (1:54:21.140)

if I knew you a lot to just slap comedians,

Lex Fridman (1:54:23.620)

my conversation with Tim Dillon

Andrew Huberman (1:54:25.020)

would have gone very differently.

Lex Fridman (1:54:27.140)

People just being humans.

Andrew Huberman (1:54:29.220)

There's so much fascinating human nature on display there.

Lex Fridman (1:54:33.260)

It's also, in terms of it becoming a topic

Andrew Huberman (1:54:37.460)

that a lot of people are talking about

Lex Fridman (1:54:39.380)

versus the war in Ukraine, for example,

Andrew Huberman (1:54:41.020)

is also fascinating to watch,

Lex Fridman (1:54:42.280)

like just these kind of news cycles moving through.

Andrew Huberman (1:54:46.180)

I think, if I may, I'm sorry to interrupt,

Lex Fridman (1:54:48.140)

but, you know, anytime we observe something very limbic,

Andrew Huberman (1:54:53.020)

very emotional, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:54:55.260)

we generally can empathize somewhat, right?

Andrew Huberman (1:54:59.660)

We all know what it's like to feel angry.

Lex Fridman (1:55:00.980)

We all know what it's like to feel ashamed.

Andrew Huberman (1:55:02.260)

We all know what it's like to feel shocked.

Lex Fridman (1:55:04.500)

Images of war are, for most people, very hard to relate to.

Andrew Huberman (1:55:09.380)

We see it, it's, you know, there are these images

Lex Fridman (1:55:12.460)

and they're very traumatic and challenging

Andrew Huberman (1:55:15.260)

to look at at times,

Lex Fridman (1:55:16.100)

and yet most people have no idea

Lex Fridman (1:55:17.500)

what it feels like to be shot at

Lex Fridman (1:55:19.780)

or what it feels like to have your home destroyed

Andrew Huberman (1:55:21.660)

or what it feels like to be an aggressor in that way.

Lex Fridman (1:55:26.260)

So it's very, so I think that people naturally orient

Andrew Huberman (1:55:29.180)

towards things that feel familiar to them,

Lex Fridman (1:55:31.780)

even though the circumstances are different.

Lex Fridman (1:55:33.540)

And people also forget, they look at these celebrities,

Lex Fridman (1:55:37.780)

that's just like looking at criticism of Will Smith,

Andrew Huberman (1:55:39.900)

you forget that they're human too.

Lex Fridman (1:55:43.220)

That's one of the most surprising things for me,

Andrew Huberman (1:55:45.580)

having done this podcast and met celebrities

Lex Fridman (1:55:48.300)

and stuff like that.

Andrew Huberman (1:55:50.020)

They're human, they're all human.

Lex Fridman (1:55:52.020)

And that's inspiring to me,

Andrew Huberman (1:55:53.140)

like some of these great folks that have won Nobel Prizes

Lex Fridman (1:55:55.980)

and built some cool things,

Andrew Huberman (1:55:57.460)

they're just human, like the rest of us.

Lex Fridman (1:55:59.460)

Well, and if you look at actors and actresses,

Lex Fridman (1:56:01.420)

I mean, there's some amazing ones, right?

Lex Fridman (1:56:03.060)

And who also do well in the outside life,

Lex Fridman (1:56:05.260)

but their careers were built on the business

Lex Fridman (1:56:09.740)

of pretending to be other people.

Lex Fridman (1:56:12.900)

And that's got to distort maybe positively,

Lex Fridman (1:56:16.460)

but also just let's be honest,

Lex Fridman (1:56:19.020)

what it is that the neuroplasticity there,

Lex Fridman (1:56:21.020)

the changes in the areas of the brain

Andrew Huberman (1:56:22.860)

that represent personality have to be quite different

Lex Fridman (1:56:25.420)

for somebody who pretends to be

Andrew Huberman (1:56:26.700)

lots of different personalities and gets paid for it.

Lex Fridman (1:56:28.940)

You're working the reward system

Andrew Huberman (1:56:30.820)

into the system of self identity.

Lex Fridman (1:56:33.260)

And you have to imagine that that can really

Andrew Huberman (1:56:38.500)

contort somebody's neurology

Lex Fridman (1:56:41.220)

in ways that maybe they are not as,

Andrew Huberman (1:56:43.780)

maybe they are not in touch with reality

Lex Fridman (1:56:45.860)

in the same way that we are.

Andrew Huberman (1:56:47.060)

Remember earlier we were talking about

Lex Fridman (1:56:47.940)

neurotic versus psychotic.

Andrew Huberman (1:56:50.300)

They may be more borderline

Lex Fridman (1:56:53.140)

in their kind of ground state than we think.

Lex Fridman (1:56:56.100)

And so I'm actually impressed anytime there's a celebrity

Lex Fridman (1:56:58.260)

who doesn't have a messed up life.

Andrew Huberman (1:57:00.540)

I'm like, oh wow, finally somebody who's managed

Lex Fridman (1:57:02.900)

to maintain some semblance,

Andrew Huberman (1:57:05.860)

at least from the outside, of normalcy.

Lex Fridman (1:57:08.260)

So first of all, I can empathize

Lex Fridman (1:57:11.300)

with the actions that Will Smith did, right?

Lex Fridman (1:57:14.140)

They're not, I think they're kind of,

Andrew Huberman (1:57:16.500)

not kind of, they're just shitty.

Lex Fridman (1:57:18.540)

You should probably talk privately, man to man,

Andrew Huberman (1:57:21.580)

not, because otherwise it's like a dramatic display.

Lex Fridman (1:57:24.660)

It's almost like you are a fake, you're acting.

Lex Fridman (1:57:27.980)

Well, there are all these questions, right?

Lex Fridman (1:57:29.740)

I mean, obviously it was aggressive at some level.

Andrew Huberman (1:57:33.140)

There's this question of whether or not it was impulsive.

Lex Fridman (1:57:36.180)

I think most people feel yes.

Andrew Huberman (1:57:37.380)

There's a question, there was the protective nature of it

Lex Fridman (1:57:39.540)

because he was doing it to, you know,

Andrew Huberman (1:57:42.220)

apparently in defense.

Lex Fridman (1:57:43.940)

But then there's also the context,

Lex Fridman (1:57:47.180)

he lost touch with the context, right?

Lex Fridman (1:57:50.620)

Whereas Chris Rock basically gets,

Andrew Huberman (1:57:53.700)

there's the possible critique that he went too far.

Lex Fridman (1:57:56.740)

That's gonna be in the eye of the beholder.

Lex Fridman (1:57:59.140)

But then, and depending on how you view comedy and jokes,

Lex Fridman (1:58:01.620)

but then there's also the fact that he took that slap

Lex Fridman (1:58:04.100)

and then just snapped right back,

Lex Fridman (1:58:05.220)

so much so that people thought maybe it was fake.

Andrew Huberman (1:58:07.500)

He also waited with his hands behind his back.

Lex Fridman (1:58:10.020)

That's just natural, he likes to stand like that.

Andrew Huberman (1:58:12.260)

I mean, I got to a little bit of a story here

Lex Fridman (1:58:18.260)

to connect to what Chris Rock did.

Andrew Huberman (1:58:22.740)

Like I wish, what Chris Rock did in terms of just

Lex Fridman (1:58:27.260)

taking the slap and keep going,

Andrew Huberman (1:58:28.540)

first of all, just props for somebody

Lex Fridman (1:58:30.720)

that's able to maintain cool in that situation

Andrew Huberman (1:58:33.740)

for the most part.

Lex Fridman (1:58:35.220)

I think I like watched it once.

Andrew Huberman (1:58:36.900)

You only have to be alive on this planet

Lex Fridman (1:58:39.300)

to see it, you can't avoid seeing it.

Andrew Huberman (1:58:42.060)

I wish at that afterwards, he would sort of say something

Lex Fridman (1:58:47.860)

loving and kind to Will Smith and his wife

Lex Fridman (1:58:52.460)

and then hit him real hard, lean into the joke.

Lex Fridman (1:58:56.180)

But I think in hockey, they call it taking a number.

Andrew Huberman (1:59:00.100)

I have a friend who plays hockey and there's this idea

Lex Fridman (1:59:01.700)

that if someone checks you really badly in one game,

Andrew Huberman (1:59:04.500)

you don't go and check them again,

Lex Fridman (1:59:06.260)

you don't get into a fight.

Lex Fridman (1:59:07.240)

But three games later, you blade them in the shin.

Lex Fridman (1:59:14.700)

The ability to defer and to handle it

Andrew Huberman (1:59:18.220)

in whatever fashion one feels is appropriate.

Lex Fridman (1:59:20.260)

They're probably also friends and all those kinds of things

Andrew Huberman (1:59:22.540)

that they respect each other, so he probably didn't,

Lex Fridman (1:59:25.900)

but there's a comedian instinct.

Andrew Huberman (1:59:27.740)

I saw this, I was at an open mic here in Texas.

Lex Fridman (1:59:33.300)

I won't say where, there's many open mics.

Lex Fridman (1:59:35.620)

Have you gone to a few of these?

Lex Fridman (1:59:36.460)

These are pretty good.

Andrew Huberman (1:59:37.460)

No, so there is more sort of rougher kind of.

Lex Fridman (1:59:44.180)

Yeah, you've been hanging out in West Texas lately.

Andrew Huberman (1:59:47.420)

Austin's too tame for Lex, so he's headed to West Texas.

Lex Fridman (1:59:50.540)

Exactly, I put on a cowboy hat

Lex Fridman (1:59:53.180)

and instantly I became a cowboy.

Lex Fridman (1:59:54.700)

I've been talking like a cowboy.

Andrew Huberman (1:59:56.580)

I mean, I belong out there in the desert.

Lex Fridman (1:59:58.940)

He's gone from eating meat and athletic greens

Andrew Huberman (20:01.620)

The details really matter,

Lex Fridman (20:03.600)

right down to your relationship to the microphone, right?

Andrew Huberman (20:07.600)

Distance and whether or not it brings out the timbre

Lex Fridman (20:09.660)

in your voice.

Lex Fridman (20:10.500)

But of course that's what he does.

Lex Fridman (20:11.320)

He produces music.

Lex Fridman (20:12.160)

But he also said like, you know, he is the professional.

Lex Fridman (20:15.880)

He said, how close do you like it to be?

Lex Fridman (20:20.320)

And he said it with a gentleness

Lex Fridman (20:22.440)

where I had like an existential crisis.

Andrew Huberman (20:24.820)

Where I don't, I don't know.

Lex Fridman (20:27.660)

He gave me so much like, wow.

Andrew Huberman (20:30.120)

Like he made me feel like an artist.

Lex Fridman (20:31.960)

Like that the microphone distance

Andrew Huberman (20:35.040)

is a decision you're supposed to make.

Lex Fridman (20:37.320)

Well, I have to say, and this has actually come up

Andrew Huberman (20:39.400)

in some of our conversations about you.

Lex Fridman (20:41.440)

I mean, you are, you are an artist.

Lex Fridman (20:42.920)

And actually Joe Rogan,

Lex Fridman (20:44.800)

once I heard him talking about podcasting

Lex Fridman (20:46.960)

and the fact that he's always trying to get better at it,

Lex Fridman (20:48.960)

you know, and he described podcasting at one moment

Lex Fridman (20:50.960)

as an art, right?

Lex Fridman (20:52.500)

And it is, it's a certain medium of communication

Lex Fridman (20:55.600)

and there's a cadence and a rhythm that when it's working,

Lex Fridman (20:59.400)

it really can facilitate the transfer of information.

Andrew Huberman (21:01.920)

When it's not, it doesn't.

Lex Fridman (21:03.220)

I mean, obviously Joe just being himself

Andrew Huberman (21:05.720)

has tapped into that cadence that allows

Lex Fridman (21:08.800)

and it's made so many people excited to hear him talk.

Andrew Huberman (21:11.840)

Well, in his case and in general,

Lex Fridman (21:13.200)

I think part of the art is refusing the world

Andrew Huberman (21:17.880)

as you get a bigger audience, change who you are.

Lex Fridman (21:21.120)

There's one quote that I've seen out there where he says,

Andrew Huberman (21:23.180)

you know, I'm like the, talking about himself, he says,

Lex Fridman (21:25.600)

you know, I'm like the fish that got through the net.

Lex Fridman (21:27.540)

There's no stage version of me, right?

Lex Fridman (21:29.760)

How he is in person is how he is, you know,

Andrew Huberman (21:33.240)

out in the world.

Lex Fridman (21:34.080)

And of course there's nuance to his life, right?

Lex Fridman (21:36.460)

And his different relationships, of course, but it's true.

Lex Fridman (21:40.200)

I mean, we've had the, you know,

Andrew Huberman (21:41.760)

the great fortune of spending time with him

Lex Fridman (21:43.720)

out away from the microphones, so to speak.

Andrew Huberman (21:46.860)

Joe is Joe.

Lex Fridman (21:48.160)

So can you speak to your, that process you mentioned,

Lex Fridman (21:51.120)

the walking and the talking to yourself?

Lex Fridman (21:52.720)

Cause that's fascinating.

Andrew Huberman (21:53.560)

Yeah, I try and do a couple of things.

Lex Fridman (21:57.600)

First of all, when I was a kid,

Andrew Huberman (21:59.100)

I had a little bit of a grunting tick.

Lex Fridman (22:01.360)

When I was five or six,

Andrew Huberman (22:03.220)

I would feel this buildup of tension in my throat

Lex Fridman (22:06.680)

and I would do this grunting tick.

Andrew Huberman (22:07.700)

If I get very tired, I start to do it still.

Lex Fridman (22:10.280)

We actually know that this is related

Andrew Huberman (22:11.800)

to these basal ganglia circuits for go, no go.

Lex Fridman (22:14.120)

You've got an accelerator and a brake basically

Andrew Huberman (22:16.160)

in your neural circuitry and kids with Tourette's and OCD,

Lex Fridman (22:21.220)

the brake doesn't work quite as well.

Lex Fridman (22:23.360)

And so one thing that happens is if I wake up

Lex Fridman (22:25.080)

in the morning and especially if I'm well rested,

Andrew Huberman (22:27.880)

well, if I'm not well rested, I do a hypnosis

Lex Fridman (22:30.120)

or yoga nidra in order to recover my sleep.

Andrew Huberman (22:32.240)

That works really well.

Lex Fridman (22:33.080)

But then once I'm into the process of preparing the podcast,

Andrew Huberman (22:36.800)

I've already gone through my notes.

Lex Fridman (22:37.940)

I know what I want to say more or less

Andrew Huberman (22:39.480)

in a kind of general contour.

Lex Fridman (22:40.840)

And then I take a walk and I try to, so no phone with me.

Lex Fridman (22:45.480)

And I try to assess whether or not my energy is too high

Lex Fridman (22:49.920)

or too low for podcasting.

Andrew Huberman (22:52.140)

Because when you podcast, as you know,

Lex Fridman (22:54.160)

you have to punch out a lot of material,

Lex Fridman (22:55.920)

but then there's times when you really need to slow down

Lex Fridman (22:57.660)

and emphasize and articulate.

Lex Fridman (22:59.600)

And so what I do, I've never revealed this.

Lex Fridman (23:04.160)

What I do actually is I will recite the lyrics of songs

Andrew Huberman (23:08.000)

for about 10 minutes, songs I love while I walk out loud.

Lex Fridman (23:12.480)

It calms you and focuses you, what does it do for you?

Andrew Huberman (23:14.480)

I think it gets my vocal cords warmed up and it also.

Lex Fridman (23:19.760)

Do you sing or speak them?

Andrew Huberman (23:21.120)

I often sing them and fortunately nobody hears.

Lex Fridman (23:25.600)

And as I do this, I start to evaluate

Andrew Huberman (23:28.880)

whether or not I'm straining to get the words out

Lex Fridman (23:30.920)

or whether or not I'm straining to make them slow enough

Lex Fridman (23:34.960)

so that I can articulate them.

Lex Fridman (23:37.240)

So there are days when I have so much energy

Andrew Huberman (23:39.800)

that I'm trying to speak faster than I should

Lex Fridman (23:44.460)

in order to articulate properly.

Andrew Huberman (23:46.080)

There are other days when I'm tired

Lex Fridman (23:47.380)

and I can't sort of keep up with my thoughts.

Lex Fridman (23:49.520)

And so what I try and do is assess that

Lex Fridman (23:51.480)

and then adjust the transmission, the RPM, so to speak.

Andrew Huberman (23:55.260)

For instance, I can speak very quickly

Lex Fridman (23:56.560)

and then I can slow down.

Lex Fridman (23:57.860)

So I can change the cadence of my voice.

Lex Fridman (23:59.680)

And when you teach in the classroom,

Andrew Huberman (24:01.520)

you learn as you know,

Lex Fridman (24:02.940)

cause you're an excellent teacher,

Andrew Huberman (24:03.920)

I've watched your lectures in the classroom.

Lex Fridman (24:05.800)

As you teach in the classroom, when you want to slow down,

Andrew Huberman (24:09.480)

every teacher knows you turn to the whiteboard or chalkboard

Lex Fridman (24:11.880)

and you start writing, right?

Andrew Huberman (24:13.040)

It gives you a break.

Lex Fridman (24:14.240)

And then you turn around and you fire back

Andrew Huberman (24:16.220)

the kind of machine gun fire of information.

Lex Fridman (24:19.040)

And then you slow down or you underline something.

Lex Fridman (24:20.920)

When you podcast, you don't have that opportunity, right?

Lex Fridman (24:24.600)

There are no visuals in my podcast.

Lex Fridman (24:26.340)

So what I try and do is always get my voice warmed up

Lex Fridman (24:31.560)

and make sure that I'm thinking and speaking

Andrew Huberman (24:33.720)

at approximately the same rate.

Lex Fridman (24:36.040)

And then I also do this thing of as I put my vision

Andrew Huberman (24:38.920)

into panoramic vision when I walk, which is very calming.

Lex Fridman (24:42.680)

And then I actually start to remind myself

Andrew Huberman (24:46.040)

of the purpose of podcasting.

Lex Fridman (24:47.520)

This sounds very mission statementy,

Lex Fridman (24:49.480)

but you asked what I do.

Lex Fridman (24:51.480)

I remind myself first and foremost

Andrew Huberman (24:54.820)

that what I want to communicate,

Lex Fridman (24:56.160)

what I want to come through is the beauty

Lex Fridman (24:57.920)

and utility of biology.

Lex Fridman (25:00.160)

And I only feel comfortable saying the word beauty

Andrew Huberman (25:02.980)

publicly now about science things thanks to you,

Lex Fridman (25:06.360)

because I think.

Andrew Huberman (25:07.600)

Love and beauty.

Lex Fridman (25:09.000)

Yeah, love and beauty.

Andrew Huberman (25:10.840)

Dr. Andrew Huberman.

Lex Fridman (25:11.840)

Love and beauty, but also darkness and hatred.

Lex Fridman (25:14.760)

And if you're talking about the Lex Friedman podcast,

Lex Fridman (25:17.200)

you have to adjust,

Andrew Huberman (25:18.040)

you have to address the shadow also, the shadow side.

Lex Fridman (25:21.100)

But I think about the,

Andrew Huberman (25:22.360)

I want to communicate the beauty and utility of biology.

Lex Fridman (25:26.360)

And then I check my emotional state.

Andrew Huberman (25:29.960)

I want to make sure that I'm not angry about anything.

Lex Fridman (25:33.840)

And certainly if I am that I'm going to set it aside

Andrew Huberman (25:35.640)

for the podcast,

Lex Fridman (25:36.480)

because that's not a place for my,

Andrew Huberman (25:38.600)

whatever I might be dealing with.

Lex Fridman (25:40.260)

I also really start to feel into the parts of the research

Lex Fridman (25:43.460)

and the papers I found that I really love,

Lex Fridman (25:45.620)

because that's the part of me that I like the most frankly.

Lex Fridman (25:52.060)

And on the podcast, if there's a paper,

Lex Fridman (25:54.760)

like for instance, we have a paper, excuse me,

Andrew Huberman (25:56.740)

a podcast coming out soon about heat as a tool,

Lex Fridman (26:01.040)

sauna, but some other things.

Lex Fridman (26:02.320)

And in researching this,

Lex Fridman (26:03.680)

I learned so much about these heat shock proteins

Lex Fridman (26:07.440)

and the use of sauna in Finland

Lex Fridman (26:09.960)

for increasing growth hormone,

Lex Fridman (26:11.080)

but also for the treatment of mental illness.

Lex Fridman (26:12.960)

And I realized I fell in love with this literature.

Andrew Huberman (26:15.160)

It's just a beautiful literature.

Lex Fridman (26:17.000)

These people are true pioneers for doing this work.

Andrew Huberman (26:19.020)

Now everyone's in the sauna, but this was 20 years ago.

Lex Fridman (26:21.740)

The way the experiments were done were amazing

Andrew Huberman (26:23.840)

with all these Finnish people with thermocouples up there,

Lex Fridman (26:26.800)

rectum to measure temperature, swimming in pools.

Andrew Huberman (26:29.480)

It's hilarious and great.

Lex Fridman (26:30.680)

And so I start to think about, and I think,

Andrew Huberman (26:33.880)

I just start to really access my love of the work.

Lex Fridman (26:36.660)

And then when we finally sit down,

Andrew Huberman (26:39.180)

meaning my producer Rob and I and record,

Lex Fridman (26:42.440)

I just sort of want to just bask in sharing it.

Andrew Huberman (26:46.200)

Just like the little version of me when I was six or seven,

Lex Fridman (26:48.760)

I used to spend all weekend reading the encyclopedia,

Andrew Huberman (26:51.120)

Guinness Book of World Records,

Lex Fridman (26:53.020)

making my mother drive me places to introduce me to,

Andrew Huberman (26:55.960)

I had this obsession with trapping animals

Lex Fridman (26:57.720)

when I was a kid, meet these people.

Lex Fridman (26:58.880)

And then on Monday, I would insist on giving a lecture

Lex Fridman (27:02.100)

in class, which as a little kid.

Lex Fridman (27:03.640)

So that's basically what it is.

Lex Fridman (27:04.720)

I just try and access that childlike energy.

Lex Fridman (27:07.920)

And so I want to be clear.

Lex Fridman (27:09.960)

The goal is always to make the information interesting,

Andrew Huberman (27:13.120)

clear and actionable.

Lex Fridman (27:15.640)

And if it's also surprising, then that's a bonus.

Lex Fridman (27:18.720)

But that's basically the process.

Lex Fridman (27:19.920)

But yeah, I'm singing and talking and getting into state.

Lex Fridman (27:24.640)

And I used to feel very sheepish about sharing any of this.

Lex Fridman (27:27.920)

This is the first time I've ever shared it out loud,

Lex Fridman (27:29.780)

but Rick was the one who encouraged me

Lex Fridman (27:32.000)

to find a process that works

Lex Fridman (27:34.640)

and continue to develop that process

Lex Fridman (27:36.840)

and not let anything get near that process.

Andrew Huberman (27:39.600)

People in my personal life know this.

Lex Fridman (27:41.640)

And when it's time, it's like,

Andrew Huberman (27:43.000)

I don't care what else is going on,

Lex Fridman (27:44.960)

I'm moving into that brain state.

Lex Fridman (27:47.240)

And there's probably a process like that

Lex Fridman (27:48.640)

for anything that you do in life that you take seriously.

Lex Fridman (27:51.900)

So the people that have perfected this is athletes.

Lex Fridman (27:55.120)

Like if Olympic level athletes,

Andrew Huberman (27:56.640)

they have to have a process like this.

Lex Fridman (27:58.360)

You know what, I think Tiger Woods actually

Andrew Huberman (27:59.720)

was taught self hypnosis quite young

Lex Fridman (28:03.760)

and use self hypnosis often during his tournaments,

Andrew Huberman (28:07.760)

sometimes to great success and other times less so.

Lex Fridman (28:11.420)

Is there other places in life that you use

Lex Fridman (28:16.360)

kind of a protocol, like a mental protocol to get ready?

Lex Fridman (28:20.480)

Many of the best areas of life

Lex Fridman (28:22.440)

are their own form of hypnosis, right?

Lex Fridman (28:25.240)

True.

Andrew Huberman (28:26.080)

You know that you're in hypnosis,

Lex Fridman (28:27.040)

if for instance, you're in a movie and something happens

Lex Fridman (28:29.220)

and you feel the emotional lift

Lex Fridman (28:30.560)

without being self conscious about it.

Andrew Huberman (28:32.880)

Yes, I think that one thing that we've tried to do

Lex Fridman (28:38.440)

in our house is around meal times to try and set a state

Andrew Huberman (28:42.800)

that food isn't just something

Lex Fridman (28:44.000)

that we just throw down our throats.

Lex Fridman (28:46.440)

And I'm fortunate that my partner cooks really well.

Lex Fridman (28:49.300)

And so I try and give her the space to do that.

Lex Fridman (28:52.400)

And that's the whole thing of her getting into state.

Lex Fridman (28:55.280)

And then.

Andrew Huberman (28:56.120)

For the cooking.

Lex Fridman (28:56.960)

For the cooking.

Andrew Huberman (28:57.780)

The preparation of all the.

Lex Fridman (28:58.620)

I can just see it.

Andrew Huberman (28:59.460)

I just see the way she approaches the whole thing

Lex Fridman (29:01.240)

and the pleasure in serving it.

Lex Fridman (29:03.160)

And I'm an eater, not a cooker.

Lex Fridman (29:05.800)

But.

Andrew Huberman (29:06.640)

Both are important roles.

Lex Fridman (29:08.000)

You could be a very good eater.

Andrew Huberman (29:09.560)

Like there's something about,

Lex Fridman (29:11.200)

is there anything better in this world than that feeling?

Andrew Huberman (29:14.680)

Especially if it's a family, getting around a table.

Lex Fridman (29:18.560)

Just the warmth of that.

Andrew Huberman (29:20.500)

I don't know.

Lex Fridman (29:21.340)

It's like the cold outside of the cruel world

Andrew Huberman (29:27.120)

cannot touch you in this place that you've returned to.

Lex Fridman (29:29.840)

And if.

Andrew Huberman (29:31.640)

I mean.

Lex Fridman (29:32.480)

Did you grow up eating meals as a family?

Andrew Huberman (29:34.640)

Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman (29:35.480)

I mean.

Lex Fridman (29:36.320)

No television?

Lex Fridman (29:37.880)

No.

Andrew Huberman (29:38.720)

I didn't really have television period outside of meals.

Lex Fridman (29:44.400)

So most of my time was spent, you know,

Andrew Huberman (29:48.280)

like a stray cat outdoors, just running around,

Lex Fridman (29:53.080)

playing soccer.

Andrew Huberman (29:53.920)

I imagine you in this like dirt or concrete lot

Lex Fridman (29:56.960)

between two very high rise buildings playing soccer

Andrew Huberman (2:00:02.180)

to rattlesnakes, rattlesnake jerky.

Lex Fridman (2:00:03.980)

Exactly.

Andrew Huberman (2:00:04.940)

No, there was a, open mic is late at night

Lex Fridman (2:00:08.460)

and I was one of the only people in the audience.

Andrew Huberman (2:00:11.100)

There's a couple of drunk folks, a few drunk folks.

Lex Fridman (2:00:15.340)

One of them was a couple, like bikers with helmets and so on,

Andrew Huberman (2:00:22.620)

a guy and a girl.

Lex Fridman (2:00:23.500)

And then the comedian, the open mic comedian,

Andrew Huberman (2:00:28.740)

did a joke about people who wear helmets.

Lex Fridman (2:00:31.780)

I don't know if it was on purpose or not,

Lex Fridman (2:00:33.340)

but he did the joke.

Lex Fridman (2:00:34.780)

And then the guy about women who wear helmets.

Lex Fridman (2:00:38.980)

And the guy, it's this exact same situation.

Lex Fridman (2:00:41.780)

The guy stood up, walked up to him.

Andrew Huberman (2:00:44.180)

There was no slap.

Lex Fridman (2:00:45.020)

It's so interesting,

Andrew Huberman (2:00:45.860)

because this happened before the Will Smith thing.

Lex Fridman (2:00:47.940)

So he walked up to the comedian

Lex Fridman (2:00:51.180)

and said, I think he pointed his finger down

Lex Fridman (2:00:59.300)

and told him to stop or something like that.

Lex Fridman (2:01:01.380)

And then sat down.

Lex Fridman (2:01:02.900)

This is an audience of like six people.

Lex Fridman (2:01:05.540)

And at midnight around then, there's nobody,

Lex Fridman (2:01:09.140)

no security, nothing.

Andrew Huberman (2:01:10.460)

In Texas.

Lex Fridman (2:01:11.300)

In Texas.

Andrew Huberman (2:01:12.140)

Which implies.

Lex Fridman (2:01:12.980)

And then this guy was the energy drunk,

Lex Fridman (2:01:16.220)

but also a biker and what he felt his lady

Lex Fridman (2:01:23.100)

was now attacked by the comedian, right?

Andrew Huberman (2:01:25.660)

With his words.

Lex Fridman (2:01:27.940)

And the comedian was a kind of out of shape, small guy.

Lex Fridman (2:01:32.900)

So he's not threatening at all and probably in trouble.

Lex Fridman (2:01:37.180)

And the comedian, after he sat down,

Andrew Huberman (2:01:39.220)

he looked a little bit scared.

Lex Fridman (2:01:41.340)

He paced back and forth.

Lex Fridman (2:01:43.620)

And then he did the joke again.

Lex Fridman (2:01:47.580)

Wow.

Lex Fridman (2:01:48.660)

And I was sitting and I started,

Lex Fridman (2:01:50.820)

I leaned back and I just did this like,

Andrew Huberman (2:01:55.140)

because that is comedy.

Lex Fridman (2:01:56.980)

And the guy was getting angrier and angrier.

Lex Fridman (2:02:00.620)

And he just sat there.

Lex Fridman (2:02:02.500)

And the comedian went on for a couple more minutes

Lex Fridman (2:02:06.100)

and then did another bad joke,

Lex Fridman (2:02:09.300)

but another joke about him.

Andrew Huberman (2:02:10.660)

It's just like, he leaned into it.

Lex Fridman (2:02:12.700)

If you go to a small comedy club, open mic or otherwise,

Andrew Huberman (2:02:15.820)

you're in the shooting gallery.

Lex Fridman (2:02:17.220)

Like you're basically there teed up as a pin to get it.

Andrew Huberman (2:02:21.900)

We went and saw Andrew Scholls in San Francisco.

Lex Fridman (2:02:24.340)

In San Francisco?

Andrew Huberman (2:02:25.180)

Yeah, it was hilarious.

Lex Fridman (2:02:26.380)

It was amazing.

Andrew Huberman (2:02:27.220)

I mean, he's just masterful in his ability

Lex Fridman (2:02:30.020)

to command an audience.

Lex Fridman (2:02:32.500)

But I felt for the people up front,

Lex Fridman (2:02:34.380)

but no sympathy either because you buy tickets

Andrew Huberman (2:02:37.420)

to sit up front at a Scholls show, you're gonna get it.

Lex Fridman (2:02:41.460)

But he was very loving.

Andrew Huberman (2:02:43.140)

Yeah, and funny.

Lex Fridman (2:02:44.660)

First of all, funny.

Andrew Huberman (2:02:46.100)

The funniness really helps you.

Lex Fridman (2:02:48.300)

But the ethic of the comedian is like that fearlessness.

Lex Fridman (2:02:52.820)

What I really liked is like the danger,

Lex Fridman (2:02:57.540)

there's risk to comedy and there's also consequences.

Lex Fridman (2:03:00.700)

Have you watched that show?

Lex Fridman (2:03:02.300)

What is it?

Lex Fridman (2:03:03.140)

The Marvelous Miss Maisel show?

Lex Fridman (2:03:04.580)

It's really good.

Andrew Huberman (2:03:05.820)

I watched a few of them.

Lex Fridman (2:03:07.740)

Guilty pleasure there.

Andrew Huberman (2:03:09.100)

She plays a comic in the, I think it's mid 1960s in New York.

Lex Fridman (2:03:14.940)

And there's a character that somewhat resembles Lenny Bruce.

Andrew Huberman (2:03:18.940)

It's sort of meant to be Lenny Bruce.

Lex Fridman (2:03:21.220)

And they're always getting arrested and this kind of thing.

Andrew Huberman (2:03:24.260)

I think I learned about it from Joe.

Lex Fridman (2:03:25.620)

Anyway, the writing is great.

Andrew Huberman (2:03:27.180)

It's very funny.

Lex Fridman (2:03:29.260)

But yeah, comedy is designed to push boundaries, right?

Lex Fridman (2:03:32.460)

And to say the thing that other people aren't,

Lex Fridman (2:03:36.940)

feel they can't say.

Lex Fridman (2:03:38.180)

Not something in science, right?

Lex Fridman (2:03:39.460)

Science you're supposed to,

Andrew Huberman (2:03:40.460)

etiquette is a big part of how you communicate ideas.

Lex Fridman (2:03:43.340)

It's about constraining communication.

Andrew Huberman (2:03:46.300)

This is something, I mean, I confess on the podcast,

Lex Fridman (2:03:48.420)

in the goals of making it clear, interesting,

Andrew Huberman (2:03:52.500)

surprising and actionable,

Lex Fridman (2:03:54.500)

you have to constrain the amount

Lex Fridman (2:03:57.100)

and the style of information.

Lex Fridman (2:03:58.420)

Otherwise it becomes something else altogether, right?

Andrew Huberman (2:04:02.780)

I saw Sandra Perchay, Google CEO,

Lex Fridman (2:04:05.460)

said that he likes the thing you mentioned,

Andrew Huberman (2:04:08.620)

not the yoga nidra, but the NSDR,

Lex Fridman (2:04:11.940)

non sleep deep rest podcast over meditation.

Andrew Huberman (2:04:15.900)

I don't know if you saw that.

Lex Fridman (2:04:16.940)

Yeah, I saw that, yeah.

Andrew Huberman (2:04:18.380)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:04:19.460)

Why?

Lex Fridman (2:04:20.300)

What do you think that is?

Lex Fridman (2:04:21.140)

What do you think the difference is?

Andrew Huberman (2:04:22.500)

Yeah, so non sleep deep rest, NSDR is an acronym

Lex Fridman (2:04:25.460)

that I coined because it encompasses a lot of practices

Andrew Huberman (2:04:28.420)

that are not meditation per se,

Lex Fridman (2:04:31.180)

but that bring the brain and body

Andrew Huberman (2:04:32.780)

into a state of relaxation and focus.

Lex Fridman (2:04:34.940)

So hypnosis is one variant of NSDR.

Andrew Huberman (2:04:37.100)

There are other variants of NSDR.

Lex Fridman (2:04:38.580)

You can just look these up and you'll find them.

Lex Fridman (2:04:40.620)

And I think that they've caught on

Lex Fridman (2:04:42.460)

and that the CEO of Google is an avid practitioner of NSDR

Andrew Huberman (2:04:49.620)

because it has this amazing ability

Lex Fridman (2:04:51.580)

to reset your energy levels and focus.

Andrew Huberman (2:04:53.980)

Whereas with meditation, many people find meditation hard.

Lex Fridman (2:04:57.420)

And part of the reason they find it hard

Andrew Huberman (2:04:58.900)

is that it requires focus.

Lex Fridman (2:05:00.980)

NSDR is a state which is very calm and relaxing.

Andrew Huberman (2:05:04.380)

You don't have to work too hard.

Lex Fridman (2:05:05.580)

You're just listening to a script,

Andrew Huberman (2:05:06.820)

whereas most forms of meditation, not all,

Lex Fridman (2:05:08.980)

but most forms of meditation involve cranking up

Andrew Huberman (2:05:11.860)

the activity in your prefrontal cortex

Lex Fridman (2:05:14.180)

and trying to see your thoughts

Andrew Huberman (2:05:16.620)

as opposed to thinking your thoughts

Lex Fridman (2:05:18.020)

or focus on your breath,

Lex Fridman (2:05:20.180)

but then third personing yourself in some respect

Lex Fridman (2:05:23.300)

and that's work.

Lex Fridman (2:05:24.140)

And so many people who meditate quite intensely

Lex Fridman (2:05:26.540)

feel more exhausted.

Andrew Huberman (2:05:28.180)

Now that doesn't mean that meditation

Lex Fridman (2:05:30.140)

doesn't have any utility,

Lex Fridman (2:05:31.580)

but it's distinctly different than NSDR.

Lex Fridman (2:05:33.900)

And I think that people are working,

Andrew Huberman (2:05:35.460)

certainly the CEO of Google I have to imagine

Lex Fridman (2:05:37.260)

is working very hard and using his forebrain.

Andrew Huberman (2:05:39.500)

If he's going to have 20 or 30 minutes to take a break,

Lex Fridman (2:05:42.260)

he should, and I think this is what he's doing,

Andrew Huberman (2:05:44.420)

he should go out for a jog and not listen to anything

Lex Fridman (2:05:46.940)

and just kind of let his mind wander

Andrew Huberman (2:05:48.780)

or sit there in a chair and just zone out or do NSDR.

Lex Fridman (2:05:52.340)

The problem is people are not that good at shifting states.

Andrew Huberman (2:05:57.540)

We are all actually pretty good at,

Lex Fridman (2:05:59.300)

even people with severe ADHD,

Andrew Huberman (2:06:01.820)

we had an episode about this,

Lex Fridman (2:06:03.460)

can become hyper focused on things that they actually enjoy

Andrew Huberman (2:06:07.260)

because dope and most of the drugs designed to treat ADHD

Lex Fridman (2:06:10.460)

are drugs that increase the levels of dopamine.

Lex Fridman (2:06:12.660)

So when you like something,

Lex Fridman (2:06:13.500)

there's dopamine release and you can focus.

Andrew Huberman (2:06:15.300)

It's when you don't like something that's hard to focus,

Lex Fridman (2:06:17.140)

shifting states is hard.

Andrew Huberman (2:06:18.860)

I'm sure you've experienced this.

Lex Fridman (2:06:19.900)

If you've ever been in deep research or podcasting,

Andrew Huberman (2:06:22.180)

podcasting, and then all of a sudden you go for a run,

Lex Fridman (2:06:24.580)

you probably spend the first third of that run thinking.

Lex Fridman (2:06:27.140)

And then in the middle third,

Lex Fridman (2:06:28.420)

you're kind of that thinking is fractured a bit.

Lex Fridman (2:06:30.900)

And then in the final third

Lex Fridman (2:06:32.100)

is where you finally get to relax

Andrew Huberman (2:06:34.300)

because the brain doesn't shift states very quickly.

Lex Fridman (2:06:37.100)

We can go from sleep to wakefulness quickly.

Andrew Huberman (2:06:39.140)

We can go from wakefulness to sleep quickly,

Lex Fridman (2:06:41.700)

but we don't shift between different states of consciousness

Lex Fridman (2:06:45.020)

like a step function, except in rare cases, right?

Lex Fridman (2:06:49.420)

Fear is one.

Andrew Huberman (2:06:50.420)

All of a sudden we hear an explosion right now,

Lex Fridman (2:06:51.980)

it's a step function.

Lex Fridman (2:06:52.860)

We're in fear or we're in alertness, right?

Lex Fridman (2:06:56.740)

A heightened state of alertness.

Lex Fridman (2:06:57.980)

But NSDR is terrific at allowing people

Lex Fridman (2:07:01.020)

to learn to shift their state.

Lex Fridman (2:07:03.060)

And I actually would venture to argue that

Lex Fridman (2:07:07.420)

part of the value of meditation and exercise

Andrew Huberman (2:07:09.900)

is the actual state that you get into

Lex Fridman (2:07:11.460)

in deep meditation or exercise,

Lex Fridman (2:07:13.420)

but just as valuable is the transition

Lex Fridman (2:07:16.180)

that you have to take yourself through

Andrew Huberman (2:07:17.700)

from one state of mind to the other and then back again.

Lex Fridman (2:07:20.940)

When I look, David Goggins, he always seems to come up

Andrew Huberman (2:07:23.980)

because he represents so many important things,

Lex Fridman (2:07:25.980)

drive, determination, override of emotional state,

Andrew Huberman (2:07:29.660)

going from being a 300 pound plus person

Lex Fridman (2:07:31.620)

to a fit person through,

Andrew Huberman (2:07:32.820)

he's never revealed anything substantial

Lex Fridman (2:07:35.620)

about what he ate or what he didn't eat.

Lex Fridman (2:07:36.780)

He basically says like, listen, run a lot, eat less, right?

Lex Fridman (2:07:40.980)

But what's remarkable is so much of what he says

Andrew Huberman (2:07:44.060)

is about those transitions,

Lex Fridman (2:07:46.300)

about taking oneself from a state of I don't want to

Andrew Huberman (2:07:48.980)

to scruffing oneself and like you're gonna do it anyway.

Lex Fridman (2:07:52.220)

And then being able to carry that into regular life,

Lex Fridman (2:07:55.460)

so to speak.

Lex Fridman (2:07:56.420)

So I think that NSDR is immensely powerful.

Andrew Huberman (2:08:00.140)

It's zero cost.

Lex Fridman (2:08:01.260)

And one of the reasons I'm such a fan of people doing it

Andrew Huberman (2:08:04.660)

is that most people don't stick to a meditation practice.

Lex Fridman (2:08:08.220)

There are also been a few cases

Andrew Huberman (2:08:09.380)

you might find this interesting.

Lex Fridman (2:08:10.300)

There's a book by Scott Carney.

Andrew Huberman (2:08:11.940)

I forget what it's called.

Lex Fridman (2:08:13.100)

I think it's called the transcendence trap or something.

Andrew Huberman (2:08:15.220)

I'm gonna have that title wrong,

Lex Fridman (2:08:16.220)

but there have been a fair number of cases of people

Andrew Huberman (2:08:20.100)

that go and do very extensive meditation,

Lex Fridman (2:08:22.580)

silent meditation retreats,

Andrew Huberman (2:08:24.500)

who then return to normal life and end up killing themselves.

Lex Fridman (2:08:28.060)

There are states of mind inside of extended meditations

Andrew Huberman (2:08:31.340)

or silent meditations that are very beneficial.

Lex Fridman (2:08:34.020)

And I'm certainly not suggesting people don't meditate,

Lex Fridman (2:08:37.020)

but I know at least one person who came back

Lex Fridman (2:08:39.060)

from one of these long extended meditation retreats

Lex Fridman (2:08:41.140)

and wasn't able to shift their state back

Lex Fridman (2:08:43.740)

into one that was functional in regular life.

Lex Fridman (2:08:45.700)

And that book includes a very dramatic story.

Lex Fridman (2:08:47.620)

I don't wanna give it away in case people

Andrew Huberman (2:08:50.300)

check out the book,

Lex Fridman (2:08:51.140)

but Scott told the story to me directly once,

Andrew Huberman (2:08:53.540)

where someone feels they've reached enlightenment

Lex Fridman (2:08:58.140)

and then commit suicide.

Lex Fridman (2:09:00.500)

So these very unusual brain states

Lex Fridman (2:09:03.100)

are potentially hazardous if people can't return from them.

Lex Fridman (2:09:07.260)

So it's nice to focus not on those brain states,

Lex Fridman (2:09:11.060)

but instead on the shifting.

Andrew Huberman (2:09:12.580)

Right, this morning I woke up a little bit earlier

Lex Fridman (2:09:15.300)

than I would have liked.

Andrew Huberman (2:09:16.140)

I use this reverie app that's research backed,

Lex Fridman (2:09:18.860)

REVRI.com.

Andrew Huberman (2:09:20.620)

There's a free version of it or you can try it for free.

Lex Fridman (2:09:23.400)

So I feel comfortable.

Lex Fridman (2:09:24.240)

That's for hypnosis?

Lex Fridman (2:09:25.060)

For hypnosis.

Lex Fridman (2:09:25.900)

And I do a self hypnosis to put me back into sleep.

Lex Fridman (2:09:29.140)

And if I can't sleep,

Andrew Huberman (2:09:29.980)

you just put me into a state of deep relaxation.

Lex Fridman (2:09:31.540)

I would put hypnosis under the category of NSDR,

Andrew Huberman (2:09:35.300)

yoga nidra under the category of NSDR.

Lex Fridman (2:09:37.220)

There are now some NSDR scripts online

Andrew Huberman (2:09:39.500)

if you just go to YouTube that you can just listen to.

Lex Fridman (2:09:42.100)

Do you like those?

Andrew Huberman (2:09:43.140)

I do, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:09:43.980)

I think the one from made for is quite good.

Andrew Huberman (2:09:45.340)

I have an affiliation with them, but it's free.

Lex Fridman (2:09:46.860)

So I feel comfortable mentioning it.

Andrew Huberman (2:09:48.540)

I do, I really like the reverie app.

Lex Fridman (2:09:50.820)

I can vary.

Lex Fridman (2:09:52.620)

And as you, the more you do them,

Lex Fridman (2:09:53.700)

the more quickly you can shift your brain

Andrew Huberman (2:09:55.000)

into a state of deep relaxation.

Lex Fridman (2:09:56.740)

I will sometimes stop mid podcast.

Andrew Huberman (2:09:59.740)

If it's, sometimes our recordings go seven, eight hours

Lex Fridman (2:10:02.460)

and I'll stop and I'll do a one minute hypnosis.

Andrew Huberman (2:10:04.620)

They have one minute hypnosis inside reverie.

Lex Fridman (2:10:06.540)

You're only going to,

Andrew Huberman (2:10:08.140)

you're only going to find that one minute hypnosis

Lex Fridman (2:10:10.220)

is effective if you are routinely doing 10

Lex Fridman (2:10:13.500)

and 15 minute hypnosis in addition to that.

Lex Fridman (2:10:16.940)

Meaning I do it every other day or so at 10 or 15.

Lex Fridman (2:10:19.420)

So there's a, is there a YouTube one minute hypnosis

Lex Fridman (2:10:22.940)

or is this for the reverie?

Andrew Huberman (2:10:23.780)

There are, but inside of reverie as well.

Lex Fridman (2:10:25.460)

You can find them online.

Andrew Huberman (2:10:26.580)

A really good.

Lex Fridman (2:10:27.400)

Pull it up so I can see.

Andrew Huberman (2:10:28.580)

Yeah, so reverie is good.

Lex Fridman (2:10:29.580)

And then Michael Sealy, S E A L E Y.

Andrew Huberman (2:10:32.940)

He has some long hypnosis scripts, but again,

Lex Fridman (2:10:34.860)

these are all free and you know,

Andrew Huberman (2:10:37.480)

there's a lot of good research now on the neural networks

Lex Fridman (2:10:40.460)

and it shifts your so called default network,

Andrew Huberman (2:10:42.380)

the default mode network.

Lex Fridman (2:10:43.780)

It shifts how much of your forebrain you're using.

Lex Fridman (2:10:46.900)

And it also is very, very good.

Lex Fridman (2:10:48.700)

If I get so many questions about,

Andrew Huberman (2:10:51.900)

hey, I'm really upset.

Lex Fridman (2:10:53.080)

I found out about my girlfriend's sexual past

Andrew Huberman (2:10:55.860)

or, hey, I'm so upset.

Lex Fridman (2:10:57.120)

I found out that my boyfriend was cheating

Andrew Huberman (2:10:58.420)

or, oh, so and so died.

Lex Fridman (2:10:59.940)

How do I get over these emotions?

Lex Fridman (2:11:01.300)

How do I deal with them?

Lex Fridman (2:11:02.380)

And hypnosis has shown to be very useful for people

Andrew Huberman (2:11:05.060)

to learn to bring themselves into a state

Lex Fridman (2:11:07.180)

of deep relaxation, to literally project in their mind's eye

Andrew Huberman (2:11:12.060)

these very intense things that they don't like.

Lex Fridman (2:11:15.400)

And then for people to associate with other emotions

Andrew Huberman (2:11:19.600)

in their body to learn to be calm

Lex Fridman (2:11:21.440)

while feeling your feelings,

Andrew Huberman (2:11:23.660)

to dissociate the mind body communication to some extent.

Lex Fridman (2:11:26.900)

Just observe the feelings.

Andrew Huberman (2:11:28.500)

Observe them and start to associate them

Lex Fridman (2:11:30.360)

with positive experiences.

Andrew Huberman (2:11:31.840)

You're an Android guy,

Lex Fridman (2:11:32.800)

so soon it should be available on Android.

Andrew Huberman (2:11:35.340)

Then it doesn't exist for me.

Lex Fridman (2:11:36.700)

Yeah, I know.

Andrew Huberman (2:11:37.540)

It's only, you know, I don't get it.

Lex Fridman (2:11:38.900)

Android is the device of the people,

Andrew Huberman (2:11:40.840)

all you elitist people with your iPhones.

Lex Fridman (2:11:43.300)

Tell me this about Android.

Andrew Huberman (2:11:44.500)

Now you want to, this is the one thing that gets me.

Lex Fridman (2:11:48.260)

Cause I'm very close to someone who uses an Android phone.

Andrew Huberman (2:11:50.760)

I feel like that.

Lex Fridman (2:11:51.780)

So you have great people in your life.

Andrew Huberman (2:11:53.940)

That's good to know.

Lex Fridman (2:11:54.780)

No, their messages always look green to me,

Lex Fridman (2:11:56.780)

but I answer yours, not despite that.

Lex Fridman (2:12:00.200)

But they, I feel like the Android phones

Andrew Huberman (2:12:02.300)

are very trigger happy.

Lex Fridman (2:12:03.500)

Like anything I touch does something.

Andrew Huberman (2:12:05.380)

Whereas the Apple phone is kind of built

Lex Fridman (2:12:07.260)

for like a macaque monkey to be able to operate,

Andrew Huberman (2:12:10.100)

which is great for me because I'm more of a macaque monkey

Lex Fridman (2:12:12.500)

and you're a more sophisticated ape.

Andrew Huberman (2:12:14.180)

Oh, I see.

Lex Fridman (2:12:15.060)

I see.

Andrew Huberman (2:12:15.900)

I feel like that.

Lex Fridman (2:12:16.720)

I think like you have to be.

Andrew Huberman (2:12:17.560)

They're more sensitive.

Lex Fridman (2:12:18.380)

Yeah, you have to have, you know, I mean,

Andrew Huberman (2:12:19.220)

I've got fat fingers, you know, I've got clumsy fingers.

Lex Fridman (2:12:22.220)

The Android is too, well, maybe you need

Andrew Huberman (2:12:24.860)

to soften your touch.

Lex Fridman (2:12:26.480)

What I would do is go into the most,

Andrew Huberman (2:12:27.900)

sort by most popular, because there's some older ones

Lex Fridman (2:12:31.420)

that I really like and it generally scales with that.

Lex Fridman (2:12:33.420)

So I'll do the, this one,

Lex Fridman (2:12:35.500)

the hypnosis for clearing subconscious negativity.

Andrew Huberman (2:12:38.900)

That's an hour long one.

Lex Fridman (2:12:40.020)

The sleep and anxiety one, 40 minutes,

Lex Fridman (2:12:41.840)

but those you listen to as you fall asleep.

Lex Fridman (2:12:44.100)

As you fall asleep.

Lex Fridman (2:12:44.940)

Oh, we're going to do this now?

Lex Fridman (2:12:45.780)

Yeah, yeah, let's listen to it.

Lex Fridman (2:12:48.180)

And I have created this hypnosis recording for you

Lex Fridman (2:12:52.100)

to help you.

Lex Fridman (2:12:53.060)

And this is the voice.

Lex Fridman (2:12:53.940)

How often does the voice pop up?

Lex Fridman (2:12:55.900)

And at the same time.

Lex Fridman (2:12:57.120)

You don't watch it.

Andrew Huberman (2:12:58.220)

You just listen to it.

Lex Fridman (2:12:59.140)

Your anxiety.

Andrew Huberman (2:13:03.300)

Now, one of the most important things.

Lex Fridman (2:13:05.420)

It's a great voice.

Andrew Huberman (2:13:06.420)

At the outset of any self hypnosis experience

Lex Fridman (2:13:10.300)

is to know and understand.

Lex Fridman (2:13:12.700)

So people really should know that stage hypnosis

Lex Fridman (2:13:16.880)

is about the hypnotist getting you to do things

Andrew Huberman (2:13:19.120)

you wouldn't normally do.

Lex Fridman (2:13:21.260)

Self hypnosis, which is what we're talking about here,

Andrew Huberman (2:13:23.380)

reverie in this is about you getting your brain

Lex Fridman (2:13:26.480)

into the state that you want.

Lex Fridman (2:13:28.500)

And again, I mean, there's a ton of neuroimaging data

Lex Fridman (2:13:32.060)

and work on trauma and pain relief.

Lex Fridman (2:13:34.300)

And our labs are working on this with David Spiegel's lab.

Lex Fridman (2:13:36.940)

I really encourage people to explore NSDR.

Lex Fridman (2:13:39.340)

And if this feels a little too wacky and out there,

Lex Fridman (2:13:41.560)

then I would just put in NSDR into YouTube

Lex Fridman (2:13:44.620)

and there's some good NSDR scripts.

Lex Fridman (2:13:46.500)

Yeah, by the way, Sondar is a fan of your podcast.

Andrew Huberman (2:13:49.740)

No, it's okay, we don't need to play it.

Lex Fridman (2:13:50.940)

Yeah, so I don't know him.

Lex Fridman (2:13:53.780)

But I get a lot of media outlets picked up

Lex Fridman (2:13:56.700)

on his love of NSDR.

Lex Fridman (2:13:58.860)

And I have to imagine running Google involves a lot of,

Lex Fridman (2:14:01.680)

juggling a lot of.

Andrew Huberman (2:14:02.860)

He's one of the great CEOs because everybody loves him.

Lex Fridman (2:14:05.540)

Everybody loves him.

Lex Fridman (2:14:06.500)

Have you interviewed him?

Lex Fridman (2:14:07.520)

No, but we'll do the interview eventually.

Lex Fridman (2:14:10.300)

So it's this annoying thing about me being a stickler

Lex Fridman (2:14:13.660)

for three hours, CEOs don't seem to understand.

Andrew Huberman (2:14:17.440)

Like, not understand, but it's scheduling.

Lex Fridman (2:14:20.360)

So what happens is Sondar said, yes, definitely, let's do it.

Andrew Huberman (2:14:23.580)

I'm a fan of podcasts, is a fan of yours.

Lex Fridman (2:14:26.020)

And then he goes to his executive assistant like,

Andrew Huberman (2:14:30.140)

oh, let's find a slot.

Lex Fridman (2:14:32.100)

And then they immediately think, all right,

Andrew Huberman (2:14:34.020)

well, one hour is good.

Lex Fridman (2:14:35.380)

45 minutes.

Andrew Huberman (2:14:36.340)

90 minutes.

Lex Fridman (2:14:37.180)

By Zoom.

Andrew Huberman (2:14:38.000)

90 minutes, yeah, right.

Lex Fridman (2:14:39.260)

Well, no, they know in person that I'm a stickler on that.

Lex Fridman (2:14:42.140)

But like, it's like, no, we need more.

Lex Fridman (2:14:45.140)

And it's so hard to.

Lex Fridman (2:14:47.500)

Do you still travel to do your podcast or generally?

Lex Fridman (2:14:49.540)

No, most people come down here.

Andrew Huberman (2:14:50.820)

Most people, but for certain situations, obviously,

Lex Fridman (2:14:55.980)

like if you're in prison.

Andrew Huberman (2:14:57.660)

Right.

Lex Fridman (2:14:59.300)

Or you're ahead of.

Andrew Huberman (2:15:00.140)

Imagine if you get out on work for a lot of people

Lex Fridman (2:15:02.020)

that have anklets so that they can go to an Alex Friedman

Andrew Huberman (2:15:04.540)

podcast, it'll probably happen.

Lex Fridman (2:15:05.740)

Have you ever been in a prison?

Andrew Huberman (2:15:07.340)

No, you know, either a visitation or on the inside.

Lex Fridman (2:15:13.180)

From my hike, I can see San Quentin.

Andrew Huberman (2:15:15.420)

It's really weird that San Quentin and Alcatraz,

Lex Fridman (2:15:17.180)

you know, Bay Area, beautiful, everyone thinks like,

Andrew Huberman (2:15:18.700)

you know, like there's the Bay and there's Alcatraz

Lex Fridman (2:15:21.220)

and San Quentin sitting right there.

Lex Fridman (2:15:22.060)

Does that make you feel?

Lex Fridman (2:15:24.860)

You know, it's amazing how easy it is to overlook

Andrew Huberman (2:15:27.100)

that they're there and forget that they're there.

Lex Fridman (2:15:28.500)

But when I drive by San Quentin, I think about it.

Andrew Huberman (2:15:31.720)

I also think about the people who are in there

Lex Fridman (2:15:33.060)

who might be innocent.

Andrew Huberman (2:15:34.740)

I've seen some of those episodes on Rogan and elsewhere.

Lex Fridman (2:15:37.220)

And Amanda Knox talks a lot about this, right?

Andrew Huberman (2:15:40.140)

Whether or not you believe her story or not,

Lex Fridman (2:15:42.560)

I happen to believe her story, personally,

Andrew Huberman (2:15:44.820)

based on what I know, what, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:15:47.300)

I'm sure there are people disagree with me.

Andrew Huberman (2:15:48.820)

I think to myself, what it must be like to be in a cell

Lex Fridman (2:15:52.780)

and know in your heart's heart, you didn't do it, you know?

Andrew Huberman (2:15:57.260)

I mean, I can't think of many things worse.

Lex Fridman (2:16:01.100)

I can't think of many things worse.

Andrew Huberman (2:16:02.760)

That's so clearly unjust, but life is full of unjust things

Lex Fridman (2:16:08.020)

like this, cruel things happen all the time.

Andrew Huberman (2:16:12.500)

You lose a loved one for no good reason.

Lex Fridman (2:16:16.620)

You lose your job.

Andrew Huberman (2:16:20.420)

You lose your home.

Lex Fridman (2:16:22.660)

Yeah, I've been talking to a lot of refugees now,

Lex Fridman (2:16:24.500)

and the war in Ukraine has really focused my mind

Lex Fridman (2:16:27.000)

to how much suffering there is in the world.

Lex Fridman (2:16:29.220)

And so just cruel things happen all the time.

Lex Fridman (2:16:32.180)

And people kind of, there's this suffering,

Lex Fridman (2:16:36.420)

and you kind of go on.

Lex Fridman (2:16:38.740)

You stick to the people really close to you.

Andrew Huberman (2:16:41.180)

There's still love all around you.

Lex Fridman (2:16:44.420)

Traumatic events kind of focus your mind on the,

Andrew Huberman (2:16:47.420)

like, very practical, like, okay,

Lex Fridman (2:16:50.780)

how do we solve the problem?

Lex Fridman (2:16:51.900)

How do we escape?

Lex Fridman (2:16:52.780)

Let's solve, like, survival, food, shelter, focus.

Andrew Huberman (2:16:56.900)

Remember that book,

Lex Fridman (2:16:58.760)

"'All's Quiet on the Western Front," by World War I?

Andrew Huberman (2:17:01.000)

There's this line in there.

Lex Fridman (2:17:01.840)

I forget what it is,

Andrew Huberman (2:17:02.680)

about how war is like the smell of a skunk.

Lex Fridman (2:17:06.100)

Like a little bit is actually a little bit is slightly,

Andrew Huberman (2:17:10.900)

there's something slightly delicious of it,

Lex Fridman (2:17:12.720)

is what it says in the book.

Andrew Huberman (2:17:14.860)

I happen to like the smell of ferrets and skunks and things.

Lex Fridman (2:17:17.700)

I had a pet ferret when I was a kid,

Lex Fridman (2:17:19.420)

and I like that musky scent.

Lex Fridman (2:17:21.900)

Most people, just it's repulsive to them.

Andrew Huberman (2:17:23.740)

It's actually a gene, believe it or not.

Lex Fridman (2:17:25.580)

Some people have the gene

Andrew Huberman (2:17:26.540)

that makes the musky scent repulsive.

Lex Fridman (2:17:29.340)

Some people love it. Let me ask you this.

Andrew Huberman (2:17:32.740)

There's another gene, this is a fun one.

Lex Fridman (2:17:34.860)

Microwave popcorn, smells good, neutral,

Lex Fridman (2:17:37.260)

or disgusting to you?

Lex Fridman (2:17:38.180)

Good, very good.

Andrew Huberman (2:17:39.260)

There are people who have a gene

Lex Fridman (2:17:40.460)

that leads them to the perception

Andrew Huberman (2:17:43.060)

that the smell of microwave popcorn that you find is good,

Lex Fridman (2:17:46.100)

it smells like putrid vomit to them.

Andrew Huberman (2:17:48.340)

It's a particular gene variant,

Lex Fridman (2:17:51.140)

and they can smell certain elements

Andrew Huberman (2:17:52.520)

within the microwave popcorn.

Lex Fridman (2:17:55.660)

It's pretty, it's prominent in France.

Andrew Huberman (2:17:58.780)

This gene, and so in laboratories

Lex Fridman (2:18:01.580)

where you have a lot of French people,

Andrew Huberman (2:18:04.300)

it's often said like you're not allowed

Lex Fridman (2:18:05.620)

to make microwave popcorn.

Lex Fridman (2:18:06.580)

It smells putrid, disgusting, you know?

Lex Fridman (2:18:09.400)

So a lot of it's in the perception of the beholder, right?

Lex Fridman (2:18:14.580)

But okay, before I leave the NSDR,

Lex Fridman (2:18:18.080)

focus in general, as you said, it's for shifting mind states.

Andrew Huberman (2:18:23.600)

Is there advice you have for how to achieve focus

Lex Fridman (2:18:28.140)

on a task?

Andrew Huberman (2:18:29.800)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (2:18:31.200)

First of all, we have to distinguish

Andrew Huberman (2:18:32.520)

between modulators and mediators,

Lex Fridman (2:18:34.780)

and I'll do this very briefly.

Andrew Huberman (2:18:36.700)

There are a lot of things

Lex Fridman (2:18:37.580)

that will modulate your state of focus,

Lex Fridman (2:18:39.200)

but they don't directly mediate your sense of focus.

Lex Fridman (2:18:42.140)

So for instance, if right now a fire alarm went off

Andrew Huberman (2:18:44.960)

in this building, it would modulate our attention.

Lex Fridman (2:18:48.060)

We would get up and leave.

Andrew Huberman (2:18:49.020)

It would be very hard to do what we're doing

Lex Fridman (2:18:50.460)

with that banging in the background, at least at first.

Lex Fridman (2:18:53.220)

So it's modulating focus, but it's not really involved

Lex Fridman (2:18:58.300)

in the mechanisms of focus, right?

Andrew Huberman (2:19:01.020)

In the same way, being well rested when you sleep,

Lex Fridman (2:19:04.440)

your autonomic nervous system that adjusts states

Andrew Huberman (2:19:06.560)

of alertness and focus and calm works better

Lex Fridman (2:19:09.100)

than when you're sleep deprived.

Lex Fridman (2:19:10.560)

So if you're sleeping better, you're gonna focus better.

Lex Fridman (2:19:12.560)

So I always answer this way to a question like this,

Andrew Huberman (2:19:15.740)

because the best thing that anyone can do

Lex Fridman (2:19:18.440)

for their mental health, physical health, and performance

Andrew Huberman (2:19:20.640)

in athletic or cognitive endeavors or creative endeavors

Lex Fridman (2:19:23.340)

is to make sure that you're getting enough quality sleep,

Andrew Huberman (2:19:26.880)

enough of the time for you.

Lex Fridman (2:19:28.340)

And that's gonna differ.

Andrew Huberman (2:19:29.180)

We could talk about what that means.

Lex Fridman (2:19:30.380)

Now, in terms of things that mediate focus

Andrew Huberman (2:19:33.380)

without getting into the description of mechanisms,

Lex Fridman (2:19:35.100)

cause we have podcasts about that.

Andrew Huberman (2:19:37.980)

It's very clear that mental focus follows visual focus,

Lex Fridman (2:19:42.060)

provided that you're a sighted person.

Andrew Huberman (2:19:45.180)

Much of the training that's being done now in China

Lex Fridman (2:19:47.660)

to teach kids to focus better,

Andrew Huberman (2:19:49.540)

literally has them stare at a target,

Lex Fridman (2:19:52.980)

blinking every so often, but really training themselves

Andrew Huberman (2:19:55.720)

to breathe calmly and maintain a tight visual aperture.

Lex Fridman (2:20:00.480)

When you read, you have to maintain

Andrew Huberman (2:20:02.200)

a tight visual aperture.

Lex Fridman (2:20:03.220)

You're literally scrolling like a highlighter

Lex Fridman (2:20:04.940)

in your mind's eye, right?

Lex Fridman (2:20:06.580)

It's kind of obvious once you hear it.

Lex Fridman (2:20:08.140)

So for people that have problems focusing sleep well,

Lex Fridman (2:20:12.740)

learn to dilate and contract your visual field consciously.

Andrew Huberman (2:20:17.020)

This can be done if you practice it a little bit.

Lex Fridman (2:20:19.660)

And then as I said before,

Andrew Huberman (2:20:21.420)

it is very hard to get into a state of focus,

Lex Fridman (2:20:23.340)

like a step function immediately, like snapping your fingers.

Lex Fridman (2:20:26.020)

What you can do is you can pick any object,

Lex Fridman (2:20:28.260)

but ideally an object at roughly the same distance,

Andrew Huberman (2:20:31.540)

placed at roughly the same distance

Lex Fridman (2:20:32.920)

to which you're going to do that work and stare at it.

Andrew Huberman (2:20:35.820)

You're allowed to blink.

Lex Fridman (2:20:36.940)

And as your mind starts to drift every once in a while

Andrew Huberman (2:20:39.460)

to understand that's normal,

Lex Fridman (2:20:40.940)

but try and narrow your visual aperture

Lex Fridman (2:20:43.380)

and bring that into your visual field

Lex Fridman (2:20:45.980)

so that that's the most prominent thing,

Andrew Huberman (2:20:47.420)

kind of like portrait mode in your phone.

Lex Fridman (2:20:49.300)

This would look very different in portrait mode

Andrew Huberman (2:20:51.000)

than it would in just a standard photograph mode.

Lex Fridman (2:20:53.540)

And then after doing that for 30 to 60 seconds,

Andrew Huberman (2:20:57.140)

moving into the work that you're about to do

Lex Fridman (2:20:58.860)

and really encourage yourself to do that.

Andrew Huberman (2:21:01.280)

If you're somebody who's low vision or no vision,

Lex Fridman (2:21:03.500)

you're going to use your ears to do this.

Andrew Huberman (2:21:05.160)

Braille readers have trouble focusing sometimes

Lex Fridman (2:21:08.380)

because they feel other stuff and they hear other stuff.

Lex Fridman (2:21:11.660)

So you learn to adjust that aperture consciously.

Lex Fridman (2:21:15.180)

And then of course the pharmacologic tools,

Lex Fridman (2:21:17.480)

just enough caffeine, but not too much, right?

Lex Fridman (2:21:20.780)

We talked about white noise, brown noise,

Andrew Huberman (2:21:22.460)

music or no music, really varies,

Lex Fridman (2:21:24.720)

but it's very clear that binaural beats of 40 Hertz

Andrew Huberman (2:21:28.860)

can shift the brain into a heightened state

Lex Fridman (2:21:31.320)

of focus and cognition.

Lex Fridman (2:21:32.600)

So if you're going to use binaural beats,

Lex Fridman (2:21:34.060)

which should definitely be used with headphones,

Lex Fridman (2:21:37.100)

and there are a number of free apps out there and sources,

Lex Fridman (2:21:39.980)

40 Hertz seems to be the frequency

Andrew Huberman (2:21:43.220)

that best supports the brain shifting

Lex Fridman (2:21:45.740)

into a particular mode of focus.

Lex Fridman (2:21:46.580)

Sorry, can you give us some binaural beats?

Lex Fridman (2:21:49.620)

Yeah, so you're going to look for,

Andrew Huberman (2:21:51.060)

you'd want to find an app that offers 40 Hertz.

Lex Fridman (2:21:54.920)

I think Brainwave allows you to slide bar

Andrew Huberman (2:21:59.960)

up to the particular frequency that you want.

Lex Fridman (2:22:02.460)

And I should say that there are other frequencies

Andrew Huberman (2:22:05.220)

that are interesting, but 40 Hertz binaural beats

Lex Fridman (2:22:07.980)

seems to be the one

Andrew Huberman (2:22:09.060)

that there's the most quality research on.

Lex Fridman (2:22:11.100)

So it's like a beat, but you're saying

Andrew Huberman (2:22:14.900)

there's a lot of mixed science

Lex Fridman (2:22:16.300)

on the white noise and brown noise.

Andrew Huberman (2:22:19.340)

You really should be doing this with headphones

Lex Fridman (2:22:21.500)

because binaural beats are best accomplished

Andrew Huberman (2:22:23.140)

by feeding two different frequencies to the two ears.

Lex Fridman (2:22:26.020)

And then you have what's called this brainstem area

Andrew Huberman (2:22:28.180)

that reads out what are called interaural time differences.

Lex Fridman (2:22:30.240)

And then it extracts the delta essentially.

Andrew Huberman (2:22:33.100)

Turn it up.

Lex Fridman (2:22:33.940)

And then in other things that can enhance focus.

Andrew Huberman (2:22:41.240)

So, you know, the pharmacology around this

Lex Fridman (2:22:43.280)

is pretty interesting.

Andrew Huberman (2:22:44.120)

Things that tickle the dopamine pathway

Lex Fridman (2:22:45.600)

and the acetylcholine pathway, they work.

Andrew Huberman (2:22:47.540)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:22:48.680)

There's your Ritalin, your Adderals,

Andrew Huberman (2:22:50.080)

your Modafinils, which are prescription.

Lex Fridman (2:22:51.840)

And there's a lot of non prescription use

Andrew Huberman (2:22:54.120)

of those prescription drugs.

Lex Fridman (2:22:55.680)

Not so much in my generation,

Lex Fridman (2:22:57.400)

but in people 35 and younger, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:23:00.600)

I hear all the time from day traders

Lex Fridman (2:23:02.420)

and programmers and stuff and kids that play video games,

Lex Fridman (2:23:04.720)

a lot of Ritalin Adderall use.

Andrew Huberman (2:23:07.000)

I think that unless it's prescribed by a doctor

Lex Fridman (2:23:08.920)

for a specific purpose of ADHD,

Andrew Huberman (2:23:10.820)

I don't think people should go that route, frankly.

Lex Fridman (2:23:12.960)

Hits the dopamine system way too hard.

Andrew Huberman (2:23:15.000)

Also has a number of negative effects on sexual side effects,

Lex Fridman (2:23:19.600)

all sorts of things that you just wouldn't want.

Andrew Huberman (2:23:21.520)

There are a few compounds like alpha GPC,

Lex Fridman (2:23:25.000)

300 milligrams to 600 milligrams of alpha GPC

Andrew Huberman (2:23:27.760)

with a cup of espresso.

Lex Fridman (2:23:28.960)

If you're well rested, you're like a laser for 90 minutes,

Andrew Huberman (2:23:32.720)

maybe two hours, but then it's going to taper off

Lex Fridman (2:23:35.240)

and you have to just recognize that.

Lex Fridman (2:23:37.080)

And then there's this whole world of nootropics now

Lex Fridman (2:23:39.800)

and people trying to figure out the racetams,

Andrew Huberman (2:23:42.280)

paracetams and phenol ethylamine combined with this.

Lex Fridman (2:23:45.560)

And, you know, it's not quite in the place

Andrew Huberman (2:23:47.200)

where you'd like it to be.

Lex Fridman (2:23:48.360)

There are a few companies

Andrew Huberman (2:23:49.200)

that are doing this better than others.

Lex Fridman (2:23:50.480)

We talk about some of these on the podcast,

Lex Fridman (2:23:51.960)

but I would always start with behavioral tools

Lex Fridman (2:23:55.240)

and then consider pharmacology.

Lex Fridman (2:23:57.400)

And then I suppose the other thing for focus

Lex Fridman (2:24:00.600)

is there are these, this is a little more esoteric,

Lex Fridman (2:24:03.120)

but we cover this in an episode on workplace optimization.

Lex Fridman (2:24:07.100)

Where you place your screen is important.

Andrew Huberman (2:24:09.960)

Staring down at a screen is not going to be as effective

Lex Fridman (2:24:12.840)

as placing it at eye level or above you.

Andrew Huberman (2:24:15.120)

When the eyes are up,

Lex Fridman (2:24:16.200)

literally when your eyes are directed forward or up,

Andrew Huberman (2:24:18.660)

the brainstem centers for alertness are activated.

Lex Fridman (2:24:21.040)

When your eyes are down, it's actually you're sort of,

Andrew Huberman (2:24:24.200)

it's like being pulled under water a little bit

Lex Fridman (2:24:25.880)

in the autonomic arousal sense.

Andrew Huberman (2:24:27.760)

It's your closing your eyes is one,

Lex Fridman (2:24:32.480)

it reflects the brainstem centers

Andrew Huberman (2:24:34.440)

that are active becoming less,

Lex Fridman (2:24:36.200)

or for alertness, excuse me, becoming less active.

Lex Fridman (2:24:39.840)

But there's a really cool effect

Lex Fridman (2:24:41.020)

that's active in this room right now,

Andrew Huberman (2:24:42.560)

which is that there've been some really interesting studies

Lex Fridman (2:24:45.280)

that when people work in small compact spaces

Andrew Huberman (2:24:48.160)

or wear a hoodie or a hat,

Lex Fridman (2:24:49.760)

that can also improve focus like blinders on a horse

Andrew Huberman (2:24:53.320)

for obvious reasons now, based on what I said before,

Lex Fridman (2:24:55.640)

but also analytic work or the kind of work

Andrew Huberman (2:24:59.640)

where there's a correct answer that you're seeking

Lex Fridman (2:25:02.240)

is best supported by these kind of low ceiling environments.

Andrew Huberman (2:25:05.460)

Whereas there's something called the cathedral effect,

Lex Fridman (2:25:07.920)

which is when you work in an outdoor environment

Andrew Huberman (2:25:09.800)

or a high ceiling environment,

Lex Fridman (2:25:11.140)

it lends itself to kind of pun intended,

Andrew Huberman (2:25:14.640)

kind of loftier ideas and more creativity.

Lex Fridman (2:25:17.600)

And that probably has to do with the fact

Andrew Huberman (2:25:19.160)

that there's a natural tendency, a reflex

Lex Fridman (2:25:21.280)

to expand your visual field

Andrew Huberman (2:25:23.220)

in these high ceiling environments.

Lex Fridman (2:25:25.660)

Expansion of the visual field

Andrew Huberman (2:25:28.480)

changes the way the brain works in the time domain.

Lex Fridman (2:25:31.820)

Your engineering and biology oriented listeners

Andrew Huberman (2:25:35.100)

will understand this and music.

Lex Fridman (2:25:37.700)

For those that don't, the best way to think about it

Andrew Huberman (2:25:39.940)

is when you have a narrow focus portrait mode on your phone

Lex Fridman (2:25:42.800)

or you're very alert, you are fine slicing life in time.

Andrew Huberman (2:25:47.540)

It's like a, think of it as a high frame rate,

Lex Fridman (2:25:50.680)

like you're shooting in slow motion.

Andrew Huberman (2:25:52.760)

When you have a, when you dilate your view,

Lex Fridman (2:25:56.000)

you're taking bigger time bins.

Lex Fridman (2:25:58.000)

And that one way to just let this hopefully land home

Lex Fridman (2:26:01.000)

is that if you've ever had a really exciting day

Andrew Huberman (2:26:04.560)

or podcast interview or experience of any kind,

Lex Fridman (2:26:08.280)

your system is flooded with dopamine and norepinephrine,

Andrew Huberman (2:26:11.500)

alertness and motivation, all this excitement.

Lex Fridman (2:26:13.800)

It seems like it goes by very, very fast.

Lex Fridman (2:26:15.880)

And yet when you think back to that,

Lex Fridman (2:26:17.560)

it seems like a lot happened.

Andrew Huberman (2:26:19.840)

This happened and that happened.

Lex Fridman (2:26:20.840)

Now think about waiting in the doctor's office

Andrew Huberman (2:26:23.160)

in a blank waiting room

Lex Fridman (2:26:24.440)

with no interesting art on the walls.

Andrew Huberman (2:26:26.720)

It feels like it goes by very, very slow.

Lex Fridman (2:26:29.040)

Dopamine and norepinephrine are at all time low.

Lex Fridman (2:26:31.840)

And yet when you think back on that experience,

Lex Fridman (2:26:33.920)

it's as if nothing happened

Andrew Huberman (2:26:35.400)

because you were parsing time differently.

Lex Fridman (2:26:39.240)

So those are the roughly the tools

Lex Fridman (2:26:41.240)

and the neurochemicals around time perception

Lex Fridman (2:26:43.720)

and the time domain.

Andrew Huberman (2:26:44.920)

There's a wonderful book, I'm forgetting the title,

Lex Fridman (2:26:46.760)

so wonderful I forget the title,

Andrew Huberman (2:26:48.200)

by Dean Bodo Mano from UCLA,

Lex Fridman (2:26:50.960)

but I think it's called The Brain is a Time Machine

Andrew Huberman (2:26:53.480)

that talks about this expansion and contraction

Lex Fridman (2:26:56.120)

of the time domain and what you can do

Andrew Huberman (2:26:58.280)

to leverage it for work and creativity focus and so on.

Lex Fridman (2:27:01.040)

Yeah, it's fascinating that I think one way

Andrew Huberman (2:27:03.760)

to define focus for me is the experience,

Lex Fridman (2:27:07.720)

the feeling of focus is losing track of time,

Andrew Huberman (2:27:11.520)

is getting to a place where you're no longer

Lex Fridman (2:27:15.720)

operating in time.

Andrew Huberman (2:27:17.960)

Well, and you mentioned being kind of cramming for something

Lex Fridman (2:27:21.960)

where you'll release a lot of adrenaline.

Lex Fridman (2:27:24.120)

And it is true, you can get a lot done under pressure

Lex Fridman (2:27:27.660)

because of the way that you're slicing time.

Andrew Huberman (2:27:29.960)

You don't actually have more time.

Lex Fridman (2:27:32.040)

It's that you're finally in a brain state

Andrew Huberman (2:27:34.020)

that lends itself well to parsing information really quickly.

Lex Fridman (2:27:37.480)

Now, if we ramp up your level of stress enough,

Andrew Huberman (2:27:40.100)

it's definitely, it's a more or less normal distribution.

Lex Fridman (2:27:44.400)

We get you stressed enough,

Andrew Huberman (2:27:45.440)

it's hard to remember anything,

Lex Fridman (2:27:46.480)

you're not parsing time well.

Lex Fridman (2:27:47.560)

But in that middle range, almost every study shows

Lex Fridman (2:27:50.160)

that the higher levels of autonomic arousal,

Andrew Huberman (2:27:51.840)

meaning norepinephrine, adrenaline in your system,

Lex Fridman (2:27:54.720)

the more effective you are at things.

Lex Fridman (2:27:57.560)

And we always hear stress and adrenaline,

Lex Fridman (2:27:59.700)

it's just bad, bad, bad.

Lex Fridman (2:28:00.760)

But my colleague, Ali Krom at Stanford

Lex Fridman (2:28:02.520)

has done these beautiful studies

Andrew Huberman (2:28:03.720)

where if you just educate people

Lex Fridman (2:28:05.880)

on how adrenaline makes them sharper thinkers,

Andrew Huberman (2:28:10.060)

they become sharper thinkers.

Lex Fridman (2:28:11.440)

If you educate them on the fact that stress

Andrew Huberman (2:28:13.240)

makes your cognition worse, their cognition gets worse.

Lex Fridman (2:28:16.680)

This is why I don't wear a sleep tracker.

Andrew Huberman (2:28:18.280)

If you tell people they slept poorly,

Lex Fridman (2:28:19.720)

your recovery score sucks,

Andrew Huberman (2:28:21.360)

they naturally perform less well the next day

Lex Fridman (2:28:23.880)

than if you tell them your recovery score is high.

Lex Fridman (2:28:26.680)

And so I don't have anything against those companies,

Lex Fridman (2:28:28.720)

but in fact, we use some of their technology,

Andrew Huberman (2:28:31.440)

can be very useful in certain contexts,

Lex Fridman (2:28:33.000)

but you want to determine your mindset around these things.

Lex Fridman (2:28:37.760)

And if you tell yourself,

Lex Fridman (2:28:38.600)

hey, deadlines make me sharp, pressure makes me sharp,

Andrew Huberman (2:28:41.880)

you will perform better.

Lex Fridman (2:28:43.400)

So stress and anxiety, what is that?

Lex Fridman (2:28:48.540)

And can it be leveraged for good?

Lex Fridman (2:28:51.180)

Absolutely, look, whether or not you get into a cold ice bath

Andrew Huberman (2:28:55.000)

or a hot sauna so hot you want to get out,

Lex Fridman (2:28:58.040)

or you get hit square in the face with something over text

Andrew Huberman (2:29:02.600)

that you really didn't want to hear or see, it's adrenaline.

Lex Fridman (2:29:06.680)

It's just adrenaline.

Lex Fridman (2:29:07.800)

And so your subjective readout of that

Lex Fridman (2:29:09.680)

and what it means is really important.

Lex Fridman (2:29:11.600)

And you can just channel that.

Lex Fridman (2:29:13.040)

Well, you can, if you agree with the following statement,

Andrew Huberman (2:29:17.120)

which I do, and many people do because the data support it,

Lex Fridman (2:29:20.040)

which is Allie Crum's statement, not mine,

Andrew Huberman (2:29:22.320)

which is she directs the mind body lab at Stanford.

Lex Fridman (2:29:24.760)

She's brilliant, by the way, brilliant Harvard trained,

Andrew Huberman (2:29:27.280)

Yale trained, trained licensed clinical psychologist,

Lex Fridman (2:29:30.280)

also a tenured professor at Stanford.

Andrew Huberman (2:29:31.520)

She's a Olympian, no, excuse me,

Lex Fridman (2:29:34.920)

a division one athlete in gymnastics and martial arts.

Lex Fridman (2:29:39.500)

And her dad is a long time martial arts trainer,

Lex Fridman (2:29:42.320)

who's done work with special forces

Lex Fridman (2:29:43.600)

and he's an amazing human being and very humble,

Lex Fridman (2:29:45.680)

very kind, lovely woman and professor scientist.

Andrew Huberman (2:29:50.320)

She says, anything that you do and experience,

Lex Fridman (2:29:53.320)

but especially stress is the consequence of that thing

Lex Fridman (2:29:58.360)

and what you believe about that thing.

Lex Fridman (2:30:01.040)

And so if you consume a lot of information

Andrew Huberman (2:30:04.160)

about the powers of stressful states to bring out your best,

Lex Fridman (2:30:07.720)

you will perform better.

Andrew Huberman (2:30:09.160)

If you consume a lot of information

Lex Fridman (2:30:10.640)

about the power of stress to cripple you,

Andrew Huberman (2:30:13.120)

you will perform worse.

Lex Fridman (2:30:15.240)

There's absolutely no question, the data are striking.

Lex Fridman (2:30:18.460)

And this is not growth mindset.

Lex Fridman (2:30:20.500)

This is just simply what do you believe about stress

Andrew Huberman (2:30:24.140)

based on the dominant knowledge

Lex Fridman (2:30:27.800)

that you're consuming about it.

Lex Fridman (2:30:28.920)

So that's why it's fun to watch David Goggins,

Lex Fridman (2:30:31.640)

here we go again, David or Jocko or Joe or someone put,

Andrew Huberman (2:30:35.060)

or Cam Haynes put out this information about,

Lex Fridman (2:30:37.680)

or Ryan Hall who ran for Stanford

Lex Fridman (2:30:39.580)

and then now is like into the power lifting thing

Lex Fridman (2:30:41.480)

and running.

Lex Fridman (2:30:43.280)

And there are others too, of course.

Lex Fridman (2:30:45.040)

When you start to consume a lot of that information,

Andrew Huberman (2:30:48.320)

it's not just inspiring,

Lex Fridman (2:30:49.560)

it actually changes your perception

Andrew Huberman (2:30:51.580)

of what your own stressful states mean.

Lex Fridman (2:30:54.940)

You can actually get better from stress

Andrew Huberman (2:30:56.880)

if you're in the ocean of knowledge that stress grows you.

Lex Fridman (2:31:00.980)

If you're living in the ocean of knowledge,

Andrew Huberman (2:31:03.800)

I was seeing like a pool in the summer,

Lex Fridman (2:31:05.560)

you got the kiddie pool,

Andrew Huberman (2:31:06.600)

the kids all peeing in it, presumably.

Lex Fridman (2:31:08.800)

And you got the diving thing,

Andrew Huberman (2:31:09.640)

you got the high dive and all that.

Lex Fridman (2:31:10.640)

If you believe that the experience of belly flopping

Andrew Huberman (2:31:13.960)

off the high dive is gonna make you a better diver,

Lex Fridman (2:31:17.080)

in some sense, at least in this analogy, it will.

Andrew Huberman (2:31:20.640)

Whereas if you feel that it's just the most embarrassing

Lex Fridman (2:31:22.960)

thing ever, and it's gonna cripple your ability

Andrew Huberman (2:31:25.480)

to get out in the dive in front of anybody ever again,

Lex Fridman (2:31:28.780)

well, you're right about that too.

Andrew Huberman (2:31:31.160)

Yeah, we actually talked with Carl about depression,

Lex Fridman (2:31:34.200)

all those kinds of things that there could be

Andrew Huberman (2:31:37.440)

these, what are commonly seen as negative journeys,

Lex Fridman (2:31:41.600)

they could be, when reframed, can be used.

Andrew Huberman (2:31:46.040)

You know, one of the reasons I enjoy our friendship so much

Lex Fridman (2:31:48.160)

is that you bring this Russian thing,

Andrew Huberman (2:31:50.480)

which I don't really understand it at a deep level,

Lex Fridman (2:31:52.840)

how could I, I'm not Russian,

Lex Fridman (2:31:53.960)

but this mindset like that there's pain in life.

Lex Fridman (2:31:58.680)

When I watched that Hedgehog in the Fog cartoon,

Andrew Huberman (2:32:02.200)

I thought, no wonder Russians call it the way they do.

Lex Fridman (2:32:05.100)

This is the most, it's so sad,

Andrew Huberman (2:32:06.840)

it's beautiful in Sabbath, it's so sad.

Lex Fridman (2:32:08.760)

Whereas out here, it's like Sesame Street,

Lex Fridman (2:32:11.080)

and my mother would not let me watch Sesame Street

Lex Fridman (2:32:13.920)

when I was a kid.

Andrew Huberman (2:32:15.000)

She thought it was too chaotic.

Lex Fridman (2:32:17.080)

Too chaotic. Too chaotic.

Andrew Huberman (2:32:18.320)

She was like, it's too chaotic.

Lex Fridman (2:32:19.680)

Too many things going on.

Andrew Huberman (2:32:20.520)

Captain Kangaroo, we were allowed,

Lex Fridman (2:32:22.160)

and then Mr. Rogers, we were allowed.

Andrew Huberman (2:32:24.280)

I never really liked shows,

Lex Fridman (2:32:25.420)

I liked doing things outside in the yard.

Andrew Huberman (2:32:29.360)

I was trying to trap all the animals,

Lex Fridman (2:32:30.680)

I didn't wanna watch stuff on TV.

Lex Fridman (2:32:32.080)

But Hedgehog in the Fog is enough to turn any kid

Lex Fridman (2:32:35.440)

into a thinker and a philosopher and a poet.

Andrew Huberman (2:32:38.840)

Here we go.

Lex Fridman (2:32:40.280)

I fell in love with this when you showed,

Andrew Huberman (2:32:42.240)

look, it even walks with its arms behind its back.

Lex Fridman (2:32:44.520)

So for people who don't know,

Lex Fridman (2:32:45.800)

and we're watching little clips here to get into,

Lex Fridman (2:32:48.820)

and it's a hedgehog that is wandering about

Andrew Huberman (2:32:54.200)

in this fog at night, and.

Lex Fridman (2:32:57.800)

Can't even see a lamp.

Andrew Huberman (2:32:59.340)

The fog is so dense.

Lex Fridman (2:33:00.880)

There's a feeling of searching.

Lex Fridman (2:33:03.400)

And then there's a horse that speaks from a distance.

Lex Fridman (2:33:08.160)

Words of wisdom.

Andrew Huberman (2:33:09.080)

Some people actually told me that they believe that's God.

Lex Fridman (2:33:12.560)

That's supposed to represent God.

Andrew Huberman (2:33:15.040)

I always thought it was a motherly voice, or a voice.

Lex Fridman (2:33:18.840)

A voice of conformity that wants you to return to safety.

Lex Fridman (2:33:23.160)

And here's the hedgehog is searching

Lex Fridman (2:33:27.120)

for something that's in him for the unknown,

Andrew Huberman (2:33:31.020)

to explore the unknown.

Lex Fridman (2:33:32.800)

And ultimately, as it, as the cartoon unrolls,

Andrew Huberman (2:33:38.520)

it's, he discovers a friend in a bear.

Lex Fridman (2:33:43.440)

And he also discovers a lifetime passion

Andrew Huberman (2:33:46.120)

for looking up at the stars,

Lex Fridman (2:33:47.800)

and the curiosity of exploring what is up there.

Lex Fridman (2:33:50.760)

And I see that as science, as exploring the mystery.

Lex Fridman (2:33:55.420)

And also I see that as brave to explore the mystery

Andrew Huberman (2:33:59.040)

given all the uncertainty all around you.

Lex Fridman (2:34:01.840)

But there is a melancholy, the whole sound of it,

Andrew Huberman (2:34:04.480)

the feel of it, the look of it.

Lex Fridman (2:34:06.320)

It was, it just captures both the melancholy

Lex Fridman (2:34:12.120)

and the wonder of childhood.

Lex Fridman (2:34:14.640)

Which is like, there's a loneliness to it.

Andrew Huberman (2:34:17.680)

Like, nobody understands me.

Lex Fridman (2:34:21.800)

That's there, that children can feel.

Andrew Huberman (2:34:25.720)

Because you're trying to figure out.

Lex Fridman (2:34:27.120)

That's my favorite character right there.

Andrew Huberman (2:34:28.560)

I love the owl.

Lex Fridman (2:34:29.560)

I love the owl.

Andrew Huberman (2:34:30.960)

The owl shows up every once in a while.

Lex Fridman (2:34:32.200)

I love the owl.

Andrew Huberman (2:34:33.040)

Sorry, I interrupted you.

Lex Fridman (2:34:35.160)

Again.

Andrew Huberman (2:34:36.000)

There's non sequitur.

Lex Fridman (2:34:37.060)

It means you're interested 70% of the time.

Andrew Huberman (2:34:39.520)

The other 30%, you're just an asshole.

Lex Fridman (2:34:41.720)

So you have to figure out which.

Lex Fridman (2:34:43.080)

So I'm told.

Lex Fridman (2:34:45.280)

There's non sequitur parts in this cartoon.

Andrew Huberman (2:34:47.480)

It's voted as one of the greatest cartoons of all time.

Lex Fridman (2:34:49.940)

Short, short little films, documentary filmmakers.

Lex Fridman (2:34:52.800)

So it is, you know, in the Soviet Union,

Lex Fridman (2:34:56.440)

in a lot of sort of authoritarian regimes,

Andrew Huberman (2:35:02.120)

there's channels to communicate difficult ideas to people.

Lex Fridman (2:35:07.120)

And you figure out those channels.

Lex Fridman (2:35:08.480)

And in the Soviet Union,

Lex Fridman (2:35:09.840)

one of those channels was children's cartoons.

Lex Fridman (2:35:13.480)

So you're actually, they're very much for adults.

Lex Fridman (2:35:16.360)

Yeah, I like that in some countries,

Andrew Huberman (2:35:19.600)

not so much in the US,

Lex Fridman (2:35:22.300)

children are treated with more respect

Andrew Huberman (2:35:24.440)

for their intelligence, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:35:27.480)

and not constantly getting this drivel

Andrew Huberman (2:35:29.840)

of just kind of moronic explosions and whistles and bells

Lex Fridman (2:35:34.040)

and the voices that just kind of, you know,

Andrew Huberman (2:35:37.260)

children, obviously are children and need to be,

Lex Fridman (2:35:39.680)

their brains are young and plastic

Lex Fridman (2:35:41.200)

and need to be treated and nurtured as such.

Lex Fridman (2:35:45.220)

But they have an intelligence.

Lex Fridman (2:35:48.600)

And I think that you treat them like morons

Lex Fridman (2:35:51.600)

and they're gonna behave like morons.

Andrew Huberman (2:35:53.840)

You treat them as, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:35:55.120)

people who can consume information

Lex Fridman (2:35:58.560)

and make sense of it in their own way.

Lex Fridman (2:36:00.680)

And that's what they're gonna do.

Andrew Huberman (2:36:02.560)

They have a seriousness of looking at the world.

Lex Fridman (2:36:05.280)

I love people that talk with children like they're adults.

Andrew Huberman (2:36:10.080)

Well, like, here's if you're talking to a mini Einstein,

Lex Fridman (2:36:13.640)

because you're like really,

Andrew Huberman (2:36:15.980)

they're asking some big questions.

Lex Fridman (2:36:17.880)

And I think, I mean, people sometimes

Andrew Huberman (2:36:19.880)

speak of me in this way.

Lex Fridman (2:36:23.240)

Like, how dumb is this childlike person?

Lex Fridman (2:36:26.200)

But like, no, there's intelligence

Lex Fridman (2:36:28.280)

in these dumb, simple questions that a child asks.

Lex Fridman (2:36:32.320)

And I always love those questions, the simplicity,

Lex Fridman (2:36:35.440)

but also the depth of those questions.

Lex Fridman (2:36:39.460)

Why?

Lex Fridman (2:36:40.300)

The reason I started watching your podcast

Andrew Huberman (2:36:41.920)

was you did an episode early on with Ray Dalio.

Lex Fridman (2:36:44.720)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:36:45.560)

And the first, maybe the first,

Lex Fridman (2:36:47.860)

but a question that you definitely asked him

Lex Fridman (2:36:50.000)

was you just said, what is money?

Lex Fridman (2:36:53.320)

And his answer was fantastic.

Andrew Huberman (2:36:55.040)

It's a superb question and he gave a superb answer.

Lex Fridman (2:36:58.800)

And I never would have thought to ask that question.

Lex Fridman (2:37:02.520)

And it's the question.

Lex Fridman (2:37:04.160)

And it was the question to tee things off with.

Lex Fridman (2:37:07.640)

So simple questions that get right

Lex Fridman (2:37:10.840)

to the heart of the matter, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:37:12.960)

and kids aren't often putting the same cultural filters

Lex Fridman (2:37:17.060)

and you know, kids generally aren't concerned

Andrew Huberman (2:37:21.440)

about getting canceled either.

Lex Fridman (2:37:23.680)

So they'll ask the question

Andrew Huberman (2:37:25.160)

that no one else is willing to ask.

Lex Fridman (2:37:26.400)

And they're not concerned about

Lex Fridman (2:37:27.840)

how dumb the question sounds.

Lex Fridman (2:37:30.640)

I find the most fascinating questions

Andrew Huberman (2:37:32.160)

are just really, really simple.

Lex Fridman (2:37:33.920)

And it is a bit embarrassing to ask those simple questions

Lex Fridman (2:37:37.820)

of like, what is anything?

Lex Fridman (2:37:40.480)

You're asking them for all of us, so please ask them.

Andrew Huberman (2:37:43.800)

I think that question, what is money, is crucial.

Lex Fridman (2:37:46.800)

And I think the simple questions are the most,

Andrew Huberman (2:37:49.960)

obviously the most interesting.

Lex Fridman (2:37:51.120)

I'm gonna ask you about, you had awesome podcasts.

Andrew Huberman (2:37:53.520)

I mean, I can ask you questions about basically

Lex Fridman (2:37:55.280)

all your podcasts.

Andrew Huberman (2:37:56.120)

People should definitely listen to the Huberman Lab,

Lex Fridman (2:37:57.480)

but with Andy Gap and the conversation,

Andrew Huberman (2:38:00.960)

you talked about strength and muscle building

Lex Fridman (2:38:02.680)

and all that kind of stuff.

Andrew Huberman (2:38:03.600)

He's an encyclopedia.

Lex Fridman (2:38:04.800)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:38:05.640)

And he also works with a lot of UFC fighters

Lex Fridman (2:38:08.420)

and he works with, he has a lab that includes a gym.

Lex Fridman (2:38:11.720)

And so he works on endurance and powerlifting

Lex Fridman (2:38:14.520)

and also hypertrophy training, et cetera.

Lex Fridman (2:38:16.380)

But he also does muscle biopsy.

Lex Fridman (2:38:19.160)

So he runs the full spectrum

Lex Fridman (2:38:21.360)

and he's a full tenured professor

Lex Fridman (2:38:23.800)

and he does all this stuff.

Lex Fridman (2:38:25.680)

So he's a really unique person

Lex Fridman (2:38:29.080)

in this whole fitness landscape

Andrew Huberman (2:38:31.120)

because there are a lot of PTs out there.

Lex Fridman (2:38:33.000)

There are a lot of kinesiologists.

Andrew Huberman (2:38:34.480)

There are a lot of people studying nutrition

Lex Fridman (2:38:36.640)

and sports training.

Lex Fridman (2:38:37.480)

But I think he has the, among the people out there,

Lex Fridman (2:38:40.280)

he's at least in the top five,

Andrew Huberman (2:38:42.720)

probably within the top three of people

Lex Fridman (2:38:45.160)

that really have their arms around the full extent

Andrew Huberman (2:38:47.920)

of what's possible with training.

Lex Fridman (2:38:50.600)

And he works with the UFC Performance Center.

Andrew Huberman (2:38:53.480)

Well, I mean, he just said a very systematic way

Lex Fridman (2:38:55.640)

of describing things that was really nice.

Andrew Huberman (2:38:58.000)

You know, skill, speed, power, strength,

Lex Fridman (2:39:02.080)

hypertrophy, so muscle mass, right?

Andrew Huberman (2:39:05.400)

Endurance, all kinds of,

Lex Fridman (2:39:06.640)

and then the philosophical of like adaptation,

Lex Fridman (2:39:08.920)

how to overload stuff, all that very,

Lex Fridman (2:39:11.000)

is there stuff, I'll ask you about ice bath and sauna,

Andrew Huberman (2:39:14.660)

which was surprising to me there.

Lex Fridman (2:39:16.680)

Is there stuff you took away from that conversation,

Andrew Huberman (2:39:21.120)

like principles about how to get strong,

Lex Fridman (2:39:25.960)

how to build muscle mass,

Andrew Huberman (2:39:28.080)

that like broadened and deepened your understanding

Lex Fridman (2:39:31.320)

of that task?

Andrew Huberman (2:39:32.400)

Definitely.

Lex Fridman (2:39:33.240)

And I'll do these in bullet points

Andrew Huberman (2:39:34.320)

because if people want the logic behind them

Lex Fridman (2:39:36.160)

and the mechanism, they can listen to that episode.

Andrew Huberman (2:39:38.000)

It's a really good episode.

Lex Fridman (2:39:39.240)

I'll start with heat and cold really quickly

Lex Fridman (2:39:40.840)

and just say that avoid cold immersion.

Lex Fridman (2:39:44.060)

So ice baths and being in cold water up to the neck,

Andrew Huberman (2:39:47.800)

uncomfortably cold within the four hours

Lex Fridman (2:39:50.180)

after a training session that's designed

Andrew Huberman (2:39:53.800)

to evoke an adaptation,

Lex Fridman (2:39:55.080)

either endurance, hypertrophy, or strength,

Andrew Huberman (2:39:57.500)

because the inflammation that you experienced

Lex Fridman (2:39:59.920)

from a hard endurance workout or from a hard strength

Andrew Huberman (2:40:02.400)

or a hard hypertrophy workout is the stimulus

Lex Fridman (2:40:05.640)

that you're going to adapt to.

Andrew Huberman (2:40:07.200)

The cold water immersion reduces inflammation

Lex Fridman (2:40:10.120)

and can short circuit some of that.

Andrew Huberman (2:40:12.880)

After four hours, you're probably okay,

Lex Fridman (2:40:14.600)

but if you can do it a different day

Andrew Huberman (2:40:16.280)

or you can do it before those sessions, that's better.

Lex Fridman (2:40:18.840)

Heat, however, can be done immediately after training

Lex Fridman (2:40:21.920)

and it's probably beneficial

Lex Fridman (2:40:22.880)

because of the way that it dilates the vascular system

Lex Fridman (2:40:25.280)

and perfuses the muscles and ligaments, et cetera,

Lex Fridman (2:40:28.840)

with more nutrients.

Lex Fridman (2:40:29.800)

And I should just mention

Lex Fridman (2:40:31.000)

that was a crucial piece of information.

Andrew Huberman (2:40:33.520)

It's a little bit surprising.

Lex Fridman (2:40:34.900)

Was it surprising to you?

Andrew Huberman (2:40:36.080)

Absolutely.

Lex Fridman (2:40:36.900)

Because I actually,

Andrew Huberman (2:40:37.740)

the way I posed the question to him about cold

Lex Fridman (2:40:39.600)

was I hear that getting into an ice bath

Andrew Huberman (2:40:41.720)

or a cold water immersion after training

Lex Fridman (2:40:43.280)

can reduce hypertrophy,

Lex Fridman (2:40:44.200)

but I'm guessing it's not that big of a deal.

Lex Fridman (2:40:45.740)

And he said, no, it is a big deal.

Andrew Huberman (2:40:47.120)

It will short circuit your progress.

Lex Fridman (2:40:48.900)

Now, for people that are only interested in performance,

Andrew Huberman (2:40:51.420)

who are doing a lot of workouts and trying to recover,

Lex Fridman (2:40:53.220)

but not trying to grow muscle, get stronger,

Andrew Huberman (2:40:54.760)

or build endurance, then it makes sense to do cold.

Lex Fridman (2:40:57.680)

Like skill development or something.

Andrew Huberman (2:40:58.840)

Skill development, or you're an athlete in season.

Lex Fridman (2:41:01.960)

So you have to, what's so great about Andy

Andrew Huberman (2:41:04.060)

is he really points out the specific ways to train

Lex Fridman (2:41:06.880)

given your specific goals.

Lex Fridman (2:41:08.120)

So if we're getting swole,

Lex Fridman (2:41:09.480)

stay out of the ice bath after a workout, there you go.

Andrew Huberman (2:41:12.440)

Lex is always making fun of the meatheads.

Lex Fridman (2:41:14.600)

I love it.

Andrew Huberman (2:41:15.640)

I put myself in the meathead category

Lex Fridman (2:41:17.000)

only because I don't do a real sport now.

Andrew Huberman (2:41:19.360)

I work out and I run, which is working out.

Lex Fridman (2:41:21.520)

I'm an aspiring meathead, okay, so.

Andrew Huberman (2:41:24.040)

One of these days I'm going to get back to Jiu Jitsu,

Lex Fridman (2:41:25.720)

or I'm going to get to Jiu Jitsu.

Andrew Huberman (2:41:27.200)

Now, in terms of training,

Lex Fridman (2:41:28.360)

he has this beautiful three by five concept for strength.

Andrew Huberman (2:41:31.700)

Pick three exercises, compound exercises,

Lex Fridman (2:41:34.000)

multi joint movements, do them for,

Andrew Huberman (2:41:37.680)

do three to five exercises

Lex Fridman (2:41:40.480)

for three to five repetitions per set,

Andrew Huberman (2:41:45.280)

rest three to five minutes,

Lex Fridman (2:41:47.000)

and do that three to five times per week.

Lex Fridman (2:41:49.000)

And for details, you can, again, look to the episode.

Lex Fridman (2:41:51.060)

It's timestamped.

Lex Fridman (2:41:51.900)

But what's interesting about this is

Lex Fridman (2:41:53.280)

three to five times a week is a lot for a muscle group.

Andrew Huberman (2:41:55.400)

Squatting five times a week for five reps,

Lex Fridman (2:41:58.080)

meaning you're working pretty heavy,

Andrew Huberman (2:42:00.240)

meaning you're close to failure,

Lex Fridman (2:42:01.520)

but not failure for strength generally.

Lex Fridman (2:42:03.640)

What Andy taught me is that people

Lex Fridman (2:42:08.080)

who are training mostly for strength

Andrew Huberman (2:42:10.280)

can do these low rep type regimens frequently

Lex Fridman (2:42:13.880)

because most of the adaptation is neural.

Lex Fridman (2:42:16.640)

And because you're not pushing to failure,

Lex Fridman (2:42:18.600)

in most cases, you don't get that sore.

Lex Fridman (2:42:21.800)

And so it's the motor neurons getting the muscle fibers

Lex Fridman (2:42:25.800)

to contract more intensely or with more efficiency

Andrew Huberman (2:42:29.820)

in other ways that's leading to these strength gains.

Lex Fridman (2:42:32.340)

And this is why power lifters can train every day

Andrew Huberman (2:42:34.600)

or five days a week or four days a week.

Lex Fridman (2:42:37.280)

For hypertrophy, I learned from Andy

Andrew Huberman (2:42:41.000)

that the repetition range can be pretty broad.

Lex Fridman (2:42:44.220)

You're thinking anywhere from six to 30 repetitions.

Andrew Huberman (2:42:48.880)

You should do 10 sets per muscle group per week,

Lex Fridman (2:42:52.280)

maybe even a bit more.

Lex Fridman (2:42:53.640)

So high volume.

Lex Fridman (2:42:54.480)

High volume, but you have to go to failure

Andrew Huberman (2:42:59.120)

or beyond in order to stimulate growth.

Lex Fridman (2:43:01.380)

Why does it work at such a great range of repetitions?

Andrew Huberman (2:43:03.760)

Well, there apparently are three ways

Lex Fridman (2:43:06.240)

that you stimulate hypertrophy and maybe more.

Andrew Huberman (2:43:08.480)

One is tissue micro damage to the tissue.

Lex Fridman (2:43:11.380)

The other is through some sort of tension based changes

Andrew Huberman (2:43:14.640)

in the molecular gene programs of cells

Lex Fridman (2:43:17.400)

that lead to protein synthesis

Andrew Huberman (2:43:19.080)

that are distinct from damage.

Lex Fridman (2:43:21.040)

And the other are metabolic effects

Andrew Huberman (2:43:22.560)

of like high repetition work

Lex Fridman (2:43:23.760)

of super fusion of the muscle with blood.

Andrew Huberman (2:43:26.020)

We know that third category exists

Lex Fridman (2:43:27.700)

because people are now doing this blood restriction training

Andrew Huberman (2:43:29.960)

where they cuff off a muscle

Lex Fridman (2:43:31.120)

and they'll use a really lightweight.

Andrew Huberman (2:43:32.640)

I've done these before.

Lex Fridman (2:43:33.460)

You can use a five pound weight and do curls with this

Lex Fridman (2:43:35.500)

and you are in pain and the muscles are swelling up

Lex Fridman (2:43:38.280)

with blood.

Andrew Huberman (2:43:39.120)

It does lead to hypertrophy,

Lex Fridman (2:43:40.360)

but in general, you're not sore.

Andrew Huberman (2:43:42.940)

You're not doing tissue damage.

Lex Fridman (2:43:44.680)

And by the way, don't just turn to get off a muscle

Andrew Huberman (2:43:46.680)

cause you have to use the proper cuffs

Lex Fridman (2:43:48.780)

because you need the blood still to flow in one direction.

Andrew Huberman (2:43:50.760)

You can't just cinch it off

Lex Fridman (2:43:52.000)

or you'll potentially kill yourself

Andrew Huberman (2:43:53.740)

if you get a clot or you do it wrong.

Lex Fridman (2:43:56.840)

So get the appropriate cuffs, they're out there.

Lex Fridman (2:43:59.440)

And then for endurance, I learned something really cool.

Lex Fridman (2:44:01.600)

So I work out basically,

Andrew Huberman (2:44:02.920)

I go to the gym every other day on average,

Lex Fridman (2:44:06.320)

three or four days a week I do that,

Lex Fridman (2:44:07.520)

but generally not two days in a row to work out.

Lex Fridman (2:44:09.800)

Next day I'll do cardio next day.

Lex Fridman (2:44:11.200)

And the cardio for me is always a 30 to 45 minute jog

Lex Fridman (2:44:14.200)

kind of zone two cardio.

Andrew Huberman (2:44:16.640)

Andy informed me that to build endurance

Lex Fridman (2:44:18.800)

while building strength and maintaining some muscle size

Andrew Huberman (2:44:22.200)

or even building muscle size,

Lex Fridman (2:44:24.520)

I would be wise to take one day a week

Lex Fridman (2:44:27.000)

and add to that all out max heart rate work

Lex Fridman (2:44:32.320)

for 90 seconds at least.

Lex Fridman (2:44:34.560)

So do 90 seconds then rest

Lex Fridman (2:44:36.120)

and then maybe do another 90 second all out sprint.

Andrew Huberman (2:44:38.760)

I almost missed my flight going from Los Angeles to Austin.

Lex Fridman (2:44:41.480)

I did that all out sprint in the airport yesterday.

Lex Fridman (2:44:44.800)

So I actually can think it's done for me.

Lex Fridman (2:44:47.600)

So there was a sprinting Dr. Huberman throughout.

Andrew Huberman (2:44:51.840)

With three bags.

Lex Fridman (2:44:52.840)

That's awesome.

Andrew Huberman (2:44:53.680)

Cause I travel, generally I'll travel

Lex Fridman (2:44:55.520)

with too much stuff.

Andrew Huberman (2:44:57.780)

I love how you were probably running late for a flight

Lex Fridman (2:45:00.200)

and use that as an opportunity to explore.

Andrew Huberman (2:45:02.080)

Well, I was doing it.

Lex Fridman (2:45:02.960)

I was thinking to myself,

Andrew Huberman (2:45:03.800)

okay, Andy, that's a 90 second sprint.

Lex Fridman (2:45:05.880)

Cause I got to the security line.

Andrew Huberman (2:45:07.780)

I finally got TSC.

Lex Fridman (2:45:08.620)

But that's for better, that's for extending endurance?

Andrew Huberman (2:45:11.360)

That's for, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:45:12.360)

It actually has some carry over effects on endurance

Andrew Huberman (2:45:15.120)

if you're doing the other stuff.

Lex Fridman (2:45:16.120)

And then he also said one day a week to do this workout

Lex Fridman (2:45:18.280)

and I haven't done it yet.

Lex Fridman (2:45:19.120)

Maybe we do it tomorrow.

Andrew Huberman (2:45:19.960)

It'd be fun.

Lex Fridman (2:45:20.780)

Which is you run a mile,

Lex Fridman (2:45:22.740)

you ask yourself, how long did that take?

Lex Fridman (2:45:26.460)

Let's say it took eight minutes.

Andrew Huberman (2:45:28.420)

Then you walk or rest for eight minutes.

Lex Fridman (2:45:30.660)

Then you run another mile as fast as you can.

Lex Fridman (2:45:33.380)

And then you rest for the equivalent period.

Lex Fridman (2:45:34.860)

And you do that one to three times once per week.

Lex Fridman (2:45:38.020)

So you do.

Lex Fridman (2:45:38.900)

And so as an all around fitness program,

Andrew Huberman (2:45:41.620)

it make, you could collapse this into something

Lex Fridman (2:45:43.820)

where you say, okay,

Andrew Huberman (2:45:44.660)

you're gonna work out with the weights

Lex Fridman (2:45:45.680)

for about an hour every other day.

Andrew Huberman (2:45:48.000)

Maybe take two days off every once in a while.

Lex Fridman (2:45:49.480)

Maybe not.

Andrew Huberman (2:45:50.320)

You're going to do six to 15 repetitions.

Lex Fridman (2:45:53.460)

You're gonna push to failure on some of those, not all,

Andrew Huberman (2:45:56.020)

because some of those are designed to build more strength.

Lex Fridman (2:45:58.700)

You're not going to failure in heavier.

Andrew Huberman (2:46:00.180)

Some are designed for hypertrophy, higher rep

Lex Fridman (2:46:02.340)

and going to failure.

Lex Fridman (2:46:03.820)

And then on off days,

Lex Fridman (2:46:04.900)

you're gonna jog for 30 to 45 minutes.

Lex Fridman (2:46:07.380)

But for two days a week,

Lex Fridman (2:46:09.180)

you're either at the end of your jog or whatever,

Andrew Huberman (2:46:12.580)

you're gonna do some all out sprints for 90 seconds

Lex Fridman (2:46:15.480)

and then rest and repeat.

Lex Fridman (2:46:17.580)

And for another day, you're going to do these mile repeats.

Lex Fridman (2:46:22.720)

That's a pretty large chunk of exercise movement.

Lex Fridman (2:46:27.120)

But if you kind of thread through the middle of all that,

Lex Fridman (2:46:30.120)

what you end up with is some decent strength,

Andrew Huberman (2:46:32.340)

building protocols, some decent hypertrophy,

Lex Fridman (2:46:34.820)

some cardiovascular training

Andrew Huberman (2:46:36.700)

that establishes the so called A base or a so called base.

Lex Fridman (2:46:40.060)

So you're not gonna get really good at anything.

Andrew Huberman (2:46:42.040)

You're not gonna become a marathoner this way,

Lex Fridman (2:46:44.040)

an optimizing marathon.

Andrew Huberman (2:46:45.660)

You're not gonna optimize powerlifting.

Lex Fridman (2:46:47.100)

You're not gonna optimize hypertrophy.

Lex Fridman (2:46:48.720)

But for the typical person, 75% of people, 75% of the time,

Lex Fridman (2:46:52.500)

they want some muscle, they want some strength,

Andrew Huberman (2:46:53.940)

they want some endurance,

Lex Fridman (2:46:54.940)

and they want the capacity to sprint to the security gate

Andrew Huberman (2:46:58.260)

without leaving a lung in the terminal.

Lex Fridman (2:47:01.340)

So it's like functional stuff,

Andrew Huberman (2:47:03.140)

like your life going up the stairs is easier,

Lex Fridman (2:47:05.820)

moving about, all that kind of just regular life.

Lex Fridman (2:47:08.180)

And I should mention that cold showers after training

Lex Fridman (2:47:12.020)

don't seem to short circuit the training effect

Andrew Huberman (2:47:17.140)

to the same extent that immersion in cold water does.

Lex Fridman (2:47:19.540)

And that really speaks to the fact that cold showers,

Andrew Huberman (2:47:21.640)

even though they can provide some of the adrenaline

Lex Fridman (2:47:23.620)

for the mental effects of like,

Andrew Huberman (2:47:25.060)

oh, I have a lot of adrenaline in my system

Lex Fridman (2:47:26.460)

from a cold shower and I can remain calm.

Andrew Huberman (2:47:28.220)

There's utility to that.

Lex Fridman (2:47:30.080)

It's not going to have the same metabolic effects

Andrew Huberman (2:47:32.840)

or other positive effects that cold water exposure

Lex Fridman (2:47:35.060)

has been shown to have.

Lex Fridman (2:47:36.540)

And that's unfortunate because most people

Lex Fridman (2:47:39.020)

have access to cold showers,

Andrew Huberman (2:47:40.120)

not everyone has access to a cold dunker.

Lex Fridman (2:47:41.900)

Or an ice dunk.

Lex Fridman (2:47:42.900)

But here in Austin, you have this place,

Lex Fridman (2:47:45.900)

and no, they don't pay me to say this,

Lex Fridman (2:47:47.060)

but I always like going to this place

Lex Fridman (2:47:48.560)

whenever I'm in town, this place, Kuya.

Lex Fridman (2:47:50.180)

And they've got a sauna and a couple ice baths.

Lex Fridman (2:47:52.580)

And they even have those salt tanks

Andrew Huberman (2:47:53.980)

that you can float on the surface.

Lex Fridman (2:47:54.820)

Do they have ice baths there?

Andrew Huberman (2:47:55.940)

They have cold water immersion, it's pretty cold.

Lex Fridman (2:47:59.300)

Still haven't done an ice bath.

Andrew Huberman (2:48:00.640)

Really? I need to, yeah, I need to.

Lex Fridman (2:48:02.100)

You're Russian, you'll probably get in

Lex Fridman (2:48:03.500)

and you won't even know.

Lex Fridman (2:48:04.500)

Yeah, what is this?

Lex Fridman (2:48:05.340)

What's the big deal here?

Lex Fridman (2:48:06.180)

Exactly, or people pay for this.

Andrew Huberman (2:48:08.500)

I did a post, right, of you as a baby.

Lex Fridman (2:48:10.300)

Yeah.

Andrew Huberman (2:48:11.140)

You know, I had to go deep to get that photo of Lex

Lex Fridman (2:48:14.540)

in a bassinet, in the snow.

Andrew Huberman (2:48:16.620)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:48:17.580)

Because in Russia, they actually did this for a long time.

Andrew Huberman (2:48:20.740)

They thought that it would,

Lex Fridman (2:48:21.620)

and indeed it does build the immune system

Andrew Huberman (2:48:23.580)

to expose babies to the cold.

Lex Fridman (2:48:25.780)

I still don't know where you got that photo.

Andrew Huberman (2:48:27.820)

I didn't know you were able to find exactly the right,

Lex Fridman (2:48:29.820)

it was great.

Andrew Huberman (2:48:31.540)

It was great research.

Lex Fridman (2:48:32.380)

You didn't have a tie on,

Lex Fridman (2:48:33.200)

but you had all the look and seriousness that you do now.

Lex Fridman (2:48:36.260)

So it's clearly nature nurture,

Andrew Huberman (2:48:37.860)

clearly you were born with that.

Lex Fridman (2:48:39.260)

What about sauna?

Andrew Huberman (2:48:40.300)

He does say that it's good to do heat.

Lex Fridman (2:48:42.500)

So there are three ways you can do sauna

Andrew Huberman (2:48:44.020)

that I can just toss out as like briefings.

Lex Fridman (2:48:46.060)

If you want to get a really big growth hormone release

Andrew Huberman (2:48:48.740)

for sake of metabolism, fat loss,

Lex Fridman (2:48:50.780)

you're training really, really hard in jujitsu

Lex Fridman (2:48:52.680)

and you want to recover,

Lex Fridman (2:48:54.260)

you don't want to sauna too often

Andrew Huberman (2:48:56.380)

because the study that identified this massive

Lex Fridman (2:48:59.920)

16 fold increase in growth hormone,

Andrew Huberman (2:49:02.360)

they had people do this, it's crazy.

Lex Fridman (2:49:04.560)

They got into, okay, temperatures are 80

Andrew Huberman (2:49:07.560)

to 100 degrees centigrade.

Lex Fridman (2:49:09.480)

So that's 176 degrees Fahrenheit

Andrew Huberman (2:49:11.500)

to 212 degrees Fahrenheit for five to 30 minutes

Lex Fridman (2:49:15.700)

is the typical ranges that people work in

Andrew Huberman (2:49:17.740)

in these research studies.

Lex Fridman (2:49:20.300)

For maximum growth hormone release,

Andrew Huberman (2:49:22.780)

don't do sauna more than once a week,

Lex Fridman (2:49:24.960)

but get into the sauna for 30 minutes,

Andrew Huberman (2:49:27.980)

as hot as you can safely tolerate.

Lex Fridman (2:49:29.980)

So probably for you, that'll be 210

Andrew Huberman (2:49:31.620)

because I suspect you'll be on the high end of things.

Lex Fridman (2:49:34.900)

Then get out for five to 10 minutes, no cold exposure,

Andrew Huberman (2:49:38.580)

get back in the sauna for 30 minutes.

Lex Fridman (2:49:40.460)

Then they had them do it again,

Andrew Huberman (2:49:41.880)

out for five minutes, back for 30 minutes,

Lex Fridman (2:49:44.240)

out for five minutes, back for three minutes.

Andrew Huberman (2:49:45.700)

They had them do two hours of sauna exposure

Lex Fridman (2:49:48.640)

to get that growth hormone release.

Andrew Huberman (2:49:51.220)

Now for the reduction in likelihood

Lex Fridman (2:49:54.040)

of dying of a cardiovascular event stroke or otherwise,

Andrew Huberman (2:49:57.060)

the more often you do sauna, the better.

Lex Fridman (2:49:59.240)

So if you look at all cause mortality

Andrew Huberman (2:50:01.860)

or death due to cardiovascular events,

Lex Fridman (2:50:03.940)

and you look at sauna use frequencies

Andrew Huberman (2:50:06.140)

using the same parameters, 80 to 100 degrees centigrade,

Lex Fridman (2:50:09.220)

one to seven times per week,

Andrew Huberman (2:50:10.900)

basically the more often you get into the sauna

Lex Fridman (2:50:12.780)

for 30 minutes across the week,

Lex Fridman (2:50:15.260)

so 30 minutes a day is better than four times a week.

Lex Fridman (2:50:17.920)

Four times a week is better than two times a week

Lex Fridman (2:50:19.740)

and two times a week is better than one.

Lex Fridman (2:50:21.400)

And the reductions in mortality are really impressive.

Andrew Huberman (2:50:25.180)

27, if you get into the sauna the way I just described,

Lex Fridman (2:50:29.180)

not the two hours a day, but 30 minutes twice a week

Andrew Huberman (2:50:32.940)

or three times per week,

Lex Fridman (2:50:33.980)

you reduce the likelihood of dying

Andrew Huberman (2:50:35.980)

of a cardiovascular event by 27%.

Lex Fridman (2:50:38.980)

If you do it four or more times per week,

Andrew Huberman (2:50:41.240)

you reduce the probability of dying by 50%

Lex Fridman (2:50:44.660)

of a cardiovascular event.

Lex Fridman (2:50:46.180)

And in these studies,

Lex Fridman (2:50:47.020)

they rule out other things that people are doing, smoking.

Lex Fridman (2:50:50.300)

They even ask them, do you live in an apartment?

Lex Fridman (2:50:52.480)

Are you in a happy relationship?

Andrew Huberman (2:50:53.820)

Like they evaluate other potentially confounding variables.

Lex Fridman (2:50:57.100)

Now for people that don't have access to a sauna,

Andrew Huberman (2:50:59.200)

a hot water bath or hot tub is gonna be your next best bet.

Lex Fridman (2:51:03.020)

And if you don't have access to that,

Andrew Huberman (2:51:04.260)

do like the wrestlers do,

Lex Fridman (2:51:05.660)

which is put on two sets of sweats and a hoodie

Lex Fridman (2:51:09.500)

and a stocking cap and wrap yourself in plastics

Lex Fridman (2:51:12.780)

underneath all that and go for a run,

Lex Fridman (2:51:14.480)

but please nobody die of hyperthermia.

Lex Fridman (2:51:16.820)

I mean, you can die of warming up too much.

Andrew Huberman (2:51:18.760)

Is this experience pleasant or stressful in the way,

Lex Fridman (2:51:25.180)

so is it as stressful as an ice bath, for example?

Andrew Huberman (2:51:27.380)

Great question.

Lex Fridman (2:51:28.960)

People always ask how cold to make the ice bath

Andrew Huberman (2:51:31.300)

or the cold water or the shower.

Lex Fridman (2:51:33.140)

You want it to be uncomfortably cold,

Andrew Huberman (2:51:35.460)

meaning you want to feel like I really wanna get out,

Lex Fridman (2:51:38.220)

but you can safely stay in.

Lex Fridman (2:51:39.300)

And that's gonna vary by person and experience with it.

Lex Fridman (2:51:42.380)

Experience, yeah.

Andrew Huberman (2:51:43.520)

With the sauna, it's the same thing.

Lex Fridman (2:51:46.540)

How hot to make it?

Andrew Huberman (2:51:47.620)

Well, don't kill yourself, obviously be smart.

Lex Fridman (2:51:50.840)

If you're pregnant, you shouldn't be doing this anyway,

Lex Fridman (2:51:53.980)

but it's very clear that what you need

Lex Fridman (2:51:56.300)

is the release of something called dinorphin.

Andrew Huberman (2:51:58.580)

We have endorphin, which makes us feel good.

Lex Fridman (2:52:00.740)

It binds to these mu opioid receptors in the body.

Andrew Huberman (2:52:04.280)

You have dinorphin, which is the terrible feeling

Lex Fridman (2:52:07.120)

that you get when you're in really hot temperatures.

Andrew Huberman (2:52:09.420)

It's also the terrible effect that alcoholics feel

Lex Fridman (2:52:12.300)

when they are in withdrawal.

Andrew Huberman (2:52:14.180)

You feel agitated, you wanna get out,

Lex Fridman (2:52:15.900)

it's really unpleasant.

Andrew Huberman (2:52:16.740)

It's dinorphin binding to the so called

Lex Fridman (2:52:18.500)

kappa opioid receptor, that's what you're trying to trigger.

Andrew Huberman (2:52:22.300)

When you do that, a number of things happen.

Lex Fridman (2:52:24.260)

You set off heat shock proteins that go repair

Andrew Huberman (2:52:27.060)

broken proteins and misfolded proteins.

Lex Fridman (2:52:29.660)

It also makes it so that later endorphin binds its receptor

Andrew Huberman (2:52:33.780)

more strongly.

Lex Fridman (2:52:34.620)

So when you have this uncomfortable experience in the heat,

Andrew Huberman (2:52:38.180)

you literally feel better in real life

Lex Fridman (2:52:40.460)

when pleasurable events come on,

Andrew Huberman (2:52:42.900)

when you experience them.

Lex Fridman (2:52:44.340)

In the same way, I like to say this,

Andrew Huberman (2:52:45.840)

that when you get into a cold ice bath or cold shower,

Lex Fridman (2:52:48.640)

the increase in epinephrine and dopamine is two to 300%.

Andrew Huberman (2:52:54.580)

These are huge increases and they last many hours.

Lex Fridman (2:52:57.140)

This is shown, because lately I've gotten a little bit

Andrew Huberman (2:53:00.420)

of pushback on Twitter, which is interesting place.

Lex Fridman (2:53:06.180)

People say, well, that's just in mice.

Andrew Huberman (2:53:07.460)

No, all the studies I just referred to

Lex Fridman (2:53:08.980)

are all done in humans, men and women,

Andrew Huberman (2:53:11.300)

fairly broad age ranges.

Lex Fridman (2:53:12.940)

So you want to be uncomfortable in the cold.

Andrew Huberman (2:53:15.300)

You wanna be uncomfortable in the heat.

Lex Fridman (2:53:17.140)

This is why I'm not a big fan of infrared saunas

Andrew Huberman (2:53:19.460)

because they only go up to about 160, 170 degrees.

Lex Fridman (2:53:22.860)

Infrared light and far red light of all kinds

Andrew Huberman (2:53:26.040)

has been shown to be beneficial for wound healing,

Lex Fridman (2:53:27.980)

acne, skin, eyes.

Andrew Huberman (2:53:29.780)

There are even guys now putting on their testicles

Lex Fridman (2:53:31.500)

because it can increase testosterone and sperm production.

Andrew Huberman (2:53:34.780)

Yeah, hormone release.

Lex Fridman (2:53:36.100)

Hormone release.

Lex Fridman (2:53:37.100)

But in terms of the sauna,

Lex Fridman (2:53:39.020)

you want that strong heat stimulus.

Andrew Huberman (2:53:41.540)

Yeah, and that's when you crawl up to the 200 mark

Lex Fridman (2:53:44.900)

and so on.

Andrew Huberman (2:53:45.740)

Whenever I'm in New York,

Lex Fridman (2:53:46.560)

and there's also one in San Francisco,

Andrew Huberman (2:53:47.740)

although the one in San Francisco is clothing optional,

Lex Fridman (2:53:49.960)

just to warn people, there's a place called Archimedes Banya.

Andrew Huberman (2:53:52.940)

Is there any scientific evidence that being naked

Lex Fridman (2:53:55.620)

is beneficial in the sauna?

Andrew Huberman (2:53:57.460)

Well, in certain contexts,

Lex Fridman (2:53:58.780)

it leads to childbirth.

Andrew Huberman (2:54:01.060)

Okay, well, I'll have to read up on that.

Lex Fridman (2:54:03.020)

I read that somewhere.

Andrew Huberman (2:54:04.700)

I suppose it's not required for childbirth,

Lex Fridman (2:54:07.460)

but in all seriousness,

Andrew Huberman (2:54:10.100)

in New York, I'll go to a place called Spa 88,

Lex Fridman (2:54:12.340)

and actually, Khabib's picture is on the wall.

Andrew Huberman (2:54:14.580)

He goes there.

Lex Fridman (2:54:15.420)

And that one, it's clothing.

Andrew Huberman (2:54:18.100)

They require clothing.

Lex Fridman (2:54:19.180)

I only just say that

Andrew Huberman (2:54:20.020)

because it can be a little bit of a shock to people sometimes

Lex Fridman (2:54:21.900)

if they kind of walk in there,

Andrew Huberman (2:54:22.740)

a bunch of naked people, the one in San Francisco.

Lex Fridman (2:54:25.380)

If I go, I'm clothed,

Andrew Huberman (2:54:26.500)

mostly because I run into coworkers or things like that.

Lex Fridman (2:54:29.420)

You know, I'm sort of more old fashioned in that way,

Andrew Huberman (2:54:33.040)

I suppose.

Lex Fridman (2:54:33.880)

But...

Lex Fridman (2:54:34.700)

Do you like to wear clothes around coworkers?

Lex Fridman (2:54:36.440)

Yes.

Andrew Huberman (2:54:37.280)

Yeah, in general. Very old fashioned.

Lex Fridman (2:54:38.100)

Yeah, I mean, to me, it just seems like, you know,

Andrew Huberman (2:54:40.180)

just be aware.

Lex Fridman (2:54:41.020)

But nonetheless, the Banyas have very hot saunas

Andrew Huberman (2:54:44.400)

because they're Russian owned.

Lex Fridman (2:54:46.180)

And in New York, there's one on the Lower East Side,

Lex Fridman (2:54:48.040)

but the Spa 88 place, they have some saunas

Lex Fridman (2:54:51.220)

that the moment I get into those,

Andrew Huberman (2:54:53.940)

I have a hard time catching a full breath.

Lex Fridman (2:54:55.580)

It burns.

Andrew Huberman (2:54:56.720)

They've got a cold dunk that's like a shock.

Lex Fridman (2:54:59.340)

And then they've got a sauna, a wet sauna steam room

Andrew Huberman (2:55:01.460)

that's a little mellower.

Lex Fridman (2:55:02.700)

So the nice thing about a Banya

Andrew Huberman (2:55:03.940)

is you can kind of find your place.

Lex Fridman (2:55:05.760)

And then they do the plaza

Andrew Huberman (2:55:06.820)

where they take the eucalyptus leaves

Lex Fridman (2:55:08.900)

and you can pay someone.

Lex Fridman (2:55:10.440)

And you basically, you cover your groin

Lex Fridman (2:55:12.180)

and then they beat you with the leaves.

Lex Fridman (2:55:15.700)

And it's supposed to bring the vasculature to the surface.

Lex Fridman (2:55:17.640)

I've only done it once.

Lex Fridman (2:55:18.780)

And frankly, I found it to be a little bit unnerving.

Lex Fridman (2:55:22.380)

I didn't really like the experience,

Lex Fridman (2:55:24.140)

but I'll try and get into a sauna

Lex Fridman (2:55:26.060)

as often as I possibly can,

Andrew Huberman (2:55:28.040)

which is once or three times per week.

Lex Fridman (2:55:30.380)

And I try and do the cold exposure shower or immersion,

Lex Fridman (2:55:34.860)

but early in the day, cause it really wakes you up.

Lex Fridman (2:55:37.780)

One of my favorite things I've listened to,

Andrew Huberman (2:55:40.340)

I wish there was a video,

Lex Fridman (2:55:42.100)

is listening to a bunch of stuff with Rick Rubin.

Lex Fridman (2:55:45.140)

And he did a thing with Tim Ferriss,

Lex Fridman (2:55:47.780)

like the Tim Ferriss podcast.

Andrew Huberman (2:55:49.060)

I don't know if you've ever heard it,

Lex Fridman (2:55:50.540)

but he forced them to do, they did the podcast in a sauna.

Lex Fridman (2:55:56.660)

And I don't think at the time Tim Ferriss was adapted.

Lex Fridman (2:56:01.020)

If you're not heat adapted, it can be pretty stressful.

Lex Fridman (2:56:03.180)

And I mean, obviously the whole experience is stressful

Lex Fridman (2:56:05.740)

as somebody with microphones, like what is happening?

Lex Fridman (2:56:09.340)

But I just love that Tim was vulnerable enough

Lex Fridman (2:56:12.940)

to kind of give themself over

Andrew Huberman (2:56:15.540)

to whatever the hell this experience is.

Lex Fridman (2:56:17.260)

And I am just so happy that Rick like pushed

Andrew Huberman (2:56:22.140)

that kind of idea and just let's do it.

Lex Fridman (2:56:25.740)

That's a very Rick Rubin kind of thing to do.

Lex Fridman (2:56:27.740)

And we must, like we must do this, this has to be done.

Lex Fridman (2:56:31.620)

A podcast that was done from a sauna continuously

Andrew Huberman (2:56:34.740)

would be really interesting.

Lex Fridman (2:56:35.680)

Like you could call it like the pressure cooker

Andrew Huberman (2:56:37.180)

or something.

Lex Fridman (2:56:38.020)

Oh, I mean like a regular podcast.

Andrew Huberman (2:56:38.940)

Yeah, like you have to sit with your guests in the sauna

Lex Fridman (2:56:42.140)

or they have to sit in the sauna.

Andrew Huberman (2:56:43.700)

That was one of the interesting things

Lex Fridman (2:56:45.260)

is it was a sad thing because I believe there's no video

Andrew Huberman (2:56:48.940)

of that podcast, but you could tell there was a kind of,

Lex Fridman (2:56:53.740)

there was suffering and especially on Tim's part.

Andrew Huberman (2:56:56.700)

It was like a degradation.

Lex Fridman (2:56:58.260)

He started over time not being able

Andrew Huberman (2:57:01.380)

to put words together correctly, which he's very eloquent.

Lex Fridman (2:57:05.600)

And so you could see there's like, there's a struggle.

Andrew Huberman (2:57:10.540)

Heat and cold pull you down from the inside.

Lex Fridman (2:57:12.760)

You have to, I mean, there's a reason why

Andrew Huberman (2:57:14.140)

the screening process for, they call it SEAL training,

Lex Fridman (2:57:18.820)

but it's really screening and training involves cold waters.

Andrew Huberman (2:57:21.420)

Cause if you're in the heat too long,

Lex Fridman (2:57:23.300)

you'll die or damage tissue.

Andrew Huberman (2:57:25.060)

In cold, you can do it quite extensively

Lex Fridman (2:57:27.160)

before you die or damage tissue, but it is stressful.

Andrew Huberman (2:57:30.220)

I was going to say one thing that I sometimes enjoy seeing

Lex Fridman (2:57:33.620)

these social media posts where people will get

Andrew Huberman (2:57:35.740)

into the ice bath and they'll look really stoic.

Lex Fridman (2:57:37.880)

Like they're really tough,

Lex Fridman (2:57:39.180)

but actually that's the wimpy way to go through it.

Lex Fridman (2:57:43.300)

When you get into cold water, if you stay very still,

Andrew Huberman (2:57:47.380)

you develop a thermal sheath around you

Lex Fridman (2:57:51.380)

that you're warming yourself.

Andrew Huberman (2:57:53.300)

The really bold way is to get in and continue

Lex Fridman (2:57:56.300)

to sift your arms and legs.

Lex Fridman (2:57:57.740)

And it ends up feeling miserably colder.

Lex Fridman (2:58:00.940)

And then there's no sheath

Andrew Huberman (2:58:02.020)

cause you're breaking up that thermal layer.

Lex Fridman (2:58:04.580)

And then when you get out, you'll notice a lot

Andrew Huberman (2:58:06.500)

of people huddle or they'll put, or they'll grab the towel.

Lex Fridman (2:58:09.620)

In general, that's me.

Andrew Huberman (2:58:10.500)

I'll get back, I'll get into the sauna.

Lex Fridman (2:58:12.580)

But if you really want to stimulate the big increases

Andrew Huberman (2:58:15.100)

in metabolism, you stand out there and you dry off

Lex Fridman (2:58:18.080)

with arms extended in open air.

Lex Fridman (2:58:20.780)

And as that water evaporates off you, it is really cold,

Lex Fridman (2:58:23.660)

but your body is forced to activate a number

Andrew Huberman (2:58:25.820)

of the warming programs related to metabolism.

Lex Fridman (2:58:28.480)

This is the beautiful work of a woman named Susanna Soberg,

Andrew Huberman (2:58:31.100)

who's Scandinavian.

Lex Fridman (2:58:32.420)

She published this paper last year in Cell Reports Medicine.

Lex Fridman (2:58:34.980)

And so I call this the Soberg principle,

Lex Fridman (2:58:36.820)

which is if you're doing ice and heat for whatever reason,

Andrew Huberman (2:58:40.300)

it doesn't matter if you end on heat or cold,

Lex Fridman (2:58:41.900)

but if you're using cold specifically

Andrew Huberman (2:58:44.140)

to stimulate an increase in metabolism, end with cold.

Lex Fridman (2:58:47.820)

That's the Soberg principle.

Lex Fridman (2:58:49.960)

And with cold, if you're alternating,

Lex Fridman (2:58:52.340)

and then if you want to do it the tough way,

Andrew Huberman (2:58:55.400)

you let the shivering, so you just stand out

Lex Fridman (2:58:57.940)

and let the water evaporate.

Andrew Huberman (2:58:59.220)

Yeah, I mean, if you ever waded into a cold ocean,

Lex Fridman (2:59:01.620)

everybody's kind of like holding themselves in,

Andrew Huberman (2:59:04.140)

if you really just, if you let yourself extend your limbs

Lex Fridman (2:59:06.900)

and move them around a bit so you break up

Andrew Huberman (2:59:08.420)

that thermal layer, that's the tough way to do it.

Lex Fridman (2:59:12.020)

So when I see people on social media getting in

Lex Fridman (2:59:13.580)

and they're like really tough and trying to look hard.

Lex Fridman (2:59:16.420)

Yeah, you want to be moving around.

Andrew Huberman (2:59:17.820)

Yeah, smiling, talking, moving around is way, way colder.

Lex Fridman (2:59:22.620)

Are you able to talk?

Lex Fridman (2:59:23.780)

Can you do, so you suggest the podcast in the sauna.

Lex Fridman (2:59:27.860)

How about this?

Andrew Huberman (2:59:28.700)

I proposed this since I got choked.

Lex Fridman (2:59:29.700)

You want to do the next podcast?

Andrew Huberman (2:59:31.260)

I'll get to, so the folks from The Plunge,

Lex Fridman (2:59:33.980)

maybe you could bring Lex a plunge.

Andrew Huberman (2:59:35.780)

He certainly deserves one.

Lex Fridman (2:59:37.740)

And we can go side by side coffin style,

Andrew Huberman (2:59:40.180)

or we can face one another when we're doing it.

Lex Fridman (2:59:42.180)

Well, we said we should do each other's podcast.

Andrew Huberman (2:59:44.060)

I mean, it'd be next.

Lex Fridman (2:59:44.980)

Well, I can't wait to have you back on.

Andrew Huberman (2:59:46.280)

I mean, we only scratched the surface.

Lex Fridman (2:59:47.500)

Well, let's do at least part of the next

Andrew Huberman (2:59:49.060)

Human Lab podcast either in the.

Lex Fridman (2:59:51.380)

I have a sauna and a cold plunge, so we could do it.

Andrew Huberman (2:59:53.580)

Yeah, we could do.

Lex Fridman (2:59:55.020)

We do a sauna and a cold plunge version.

Andrew Huberman (2:59:57.140)

I wonder how the recording works,

Lex Fridman (2:59:59.580)

if the recording. A bit of an echo in the sauna,

Andrew Huberman (30:00.280)

in like athletic gear that you only see in Eastern Europe.

Lex Fridman (30:04.480)

You know how like you come to the States

Lex Fridman (30:05.800)

and people wear their athletic gear.

Lex Fridman (30:07.200)

You go to Europe and you see, maybe it's the soccer culture,

Lex Fridman (30:10.880)

but you see athletic gear

Lex Fridman (30:12.240)

that you just don't see anywhere else.

Andrew Huberman (30:14.160)

That's interesting.

Lex Fridman (30:15.000)

I mean, I grew up pretty poor.

Lex Fridman (30:17.000)

So first of all, I was always wearing my brother's,

Lex Fridman (30:20.760)

who's an older brother, brother's clothes.

Lex Fridman (30:23.600)

And they were like old, like my favorite things

Lex Fridman (30:29.440)

were American things that I didn't understand.

Andrew Huberman (30:31.960)

It would be like a Pepsi shirt or something.

Lex Fridman (30:34.280)

And it was just, that was the gear.

Lex Fridman (30:36.560)

And it was like too large for me,

Lex Fridman (30:38.040)

but I thought I was the coolest person ever

Andrew Huberman (30:40.200)

just wearing this fancy like Kanye like type of fashion.

Lex Fridman (30:44.800)

Yeah, there's something about,

Andrew Huberman (30:45.640)

I feel like in Eastern Europe,

Lex Fridman (30:47.720)

they wear athletic gear where like the guys like zip up.

Andrew Huberman (30:50.080)

Yeah, no, that's like fancy stuff.

Lex Fridman (30:52.080)

That's if you like, those are the cool kids.

Andrew Huberman (30:54.480)

I see, I see.

Lex Fridman (30:55.960)

Like the cool soccer players, football players

Andrew Huberman (30:58.640)

that like they were in a league of some kind.

Lex Fridman (31:02.400)

So they would get uniforms or like, or they somehow,

Andrew Huberman (31:06.880)

I always thought anyone who had anything nice

Lex Fridman (31:10.360)

had to do something really bad to get it.

Andrew Huberman (31:13.040)

That was my way, view of the world.

Lex Fridman (31:15.680)

Because like, I guess I didn't understand

Lex Fridman (31:20.360)

how it's possible to be rich.

Lex Fridman (31:22.360)

Cause most of us were surrounded by people who are poor

Lex Fridman (31:25.280)

and that life is beautiful and simple.

Lex Fridman (31:26.800)

And it's like, why do you escape that life?

Lex Fridman (31:28.840)

But you still admire the cool,

Lex Fridman (31:30.960)

like when we got McDonald's, it was like,

Lex Fridman (31:35.680)

what kind of world does this place come from?

Lex Fridman (31:39.960)

Like who invented this?

Andrew Huberman (31:42.600)

This is a fascinating view from a child's perspective

Lex Fridman (31:45.520)

of like, of capitalism essentially.

Andrew Huberman (31:47.720)

Yeah, but the fact that you ate dinner together

Lex Fridman (31:49.920)

is really interesting.

Andrew Huberman (31:51.400)

My parents divorced when I was an adolescent.

Lex Fridman (31:53.520)

So then there was a total fracture of any family structure.

Lex Fridman (31:56.560)

But prior to that, we ate dinner together every night.

Lex Fridman (31:58.880)

I was expected to know how to use my knife and fork.

Lex Fridman (32:00.880)

And it was like a very structured thing.

Lex Fridman (32:05.920)

I don't know if kids do that now.

Andrew Huberman (32:09.080)

If I ever have kids, they're gonna do that.

Lex Fridman (32:11.200)

And certainly, actually on the way over here,

Andrew Huberman (32:13.680)

I was thinking, I was like, I really want a lot of kids.

Lex Fridman (32:16.720)

I want like a whole litter.

Lex Fridman (32:18.320)

And I was thinking, if Lex has kids and I have kids,

Lex Fridman (32:21.600)

then we can like pit them against each other with jujitsu.

Andrew Huberman (32:25.200)

This is my chance at redemption.

Lex Fridman (32:28.680)

It's the law game.

Andrew Huberman (32:30.400)

They'll all wanna be engineers or physicists.

Lex Fridman (32:33.120)

They won't wanna be biologists.

Lex Fridman (32:35.840)

But in all seriousness, I look forward to the day

Lex Fridman (32:38.360)

that our kids play together.

Andrew Huberman (32:41.360)

Yeah, I think there's something,

Lex Fridman (32:43.480)

so the family dinner, the ritual of the family dinner,

Lex Fridman (32:47.200)

but also the special occasion dinners,

Lex Fridman (32:49.160)

like where there's a little bit more preparation,

Andrew Huberman (32:51.920)

a little bit more cooking,

Lex Fridman (32:53.760)

whether it's on the weekend or for some holiday.

Andrew Huberman (32:57.000)

In Russia, it was a thing that actually

Lex Fridman (32:59.600)

I find completely missing for the most part.

Andrew Huberman (33:02.800)

In America is there was neighbors.

Lex Fridman (33:04.800)

There was a, you broke the walls

Andrew Huberman (33:08.360)

between families much more commonly.

Lex Fridman (33:11.080)

Like there would be kinda regular characters,

Andrew Huberman (33:13.800)

like a sitcom almost.

Lex Fridman (33:15.120)

If you watch the sitcom, it's never just the family.

Andrew Huberman (33:17.600)

There's always like other characters that.

Lex Fridman (33:19.200)

Just bursting in the door.

Andrew Huberman (33:20.120)

Bursting in the door.

Lex Fridman (33:20.960)

I'm gonna start doing that here,

Andrew Huberman (33:22.120)

just to make you feel at home.

Lex Fridman (33:22.960)

Just start showing up at your studio.

Andrew Huberman (33:24.680)

I know where you live.

Lex Fridman (33:25.640)

I think people wanna respect,

Andrew Huberman (33:27.520)

like Michael Malice lives next door to me.

Lex Fridman (33:30.720)

And I think people wanna respect each other's privacy

Andrew Huberman (33:33.760)

or something like that.

Lex Fridman (33:34.600)

And I think we all get super busy.

Lex Fridman (33:37.400)

And it's kind of work

Lex Fridman (33:42.400)

to do this dinner together.

Andrew Huberman (33:46.080)

Or if you see it as a thing that needs to be scheduled,

Lex Fridman (33:49.760)

it's work.

Andrew Huberman (33:50.600)

We get busy.

Lex Fridman (33:51.440)

There's a lot of stuff going on.

Lex Fridman (33:52.280)

But if it's part of a ritual, a part of the culture,

Lex Fridman (33:55.520)

all of those walls get broken down.

Lex Fridman (33:58.560)

And then you realize like that's,

Lex Fridman (34:00.160)

like later looking back, those are the things you miss.

Andrew Huberman (34:03.120)

Like that's what life is about.

Lex Fridman (34:04.880)

Like all the stupid stuff you're doing

Andrew Huberman (34:06.360)

in terms of career or whatever,

Lex Fridman (34:08.160)

all the busy things, those don't matter.

Lex Fridman (34:10.080)

What matters is the people.

Lex Fridman (34:12.240)

In academia, this changed in the last few years, of course.

Lex Fridman (34:17.080)

But one of the great joys was professors will stop by

Lex Fridman (34:20.800)

your office or your lab.

Andrew Huberman (34:21.640)

Nobody set up an appointment.

Lex Fridman (34:23.560)

There was a guy when I was a professor in San Diego,

Andrew Huberman (34:25.480)

a guy named Harvey Cartney,

Lex Fridman (34:26.400)

he's a member of the National Academies,

Andrew Huberman (34:28.440)

truly the world's expert in the evolution of vision

Lex Fridman (34:31.320)

and evolution of brains generally.

Lex Fridman (34:33.720)

And he would show up in my lab

Lex Fridman (34:35.320)

and he would just start talking to the students in postdocs.

Lex Fridman (34:37.880)

And I mean, a pure encyclopedia.

Lex Fridman (34:42.600)

And then at some point you'd say,

Andrew Huberman (34:43.840)

hey, Harvey, I gotta go.

Lex Fridman (34:45.080)

And you'd have, you'd kick him out, right?

Andrew Huberman (34:46.640)

Or this guy, he's a physicist, David Klinefield,

Lex Fridman (34:49.600)

who's, same way.

Andrew Huberman (34:50.920)

Actually, David Klinefield is an interesting one.

Lex Fridman (34:53.040)

A student of his went on to create

Andrew Huberman (34:55.800)

the Beavis and Butthead cartoon.

Lex Fridman (34:57.400)

And one of them is David, he's a physics professor.

Andrew Huberman (34:59.360)

Now people can look him up.

Lex Fridman (35:01.000)

And David's one of those guys who just walk into your office

Lex Fridman (35:03.320)

and you just sit down and you just start talking to you.

Lex Fridman (35:05.400)

And so there's a kind of a family field.

Andrew Huberman (35:07.360)

It's like Cheers or Seinfeld or one of those shows

Lex Fridman (35:09.800)

where somebody just walks in.

Lex Fridman (35:10.880)

And yeah, I think you and I both share a love

Lex Fridman (35:13.720)

of the community around things.

Lex Fridman (35:14.960)

And podcasting is a little bit more isolated.

Lex Fridman (35:17.720)

I should say for the guest episodes,

Andrew Huberman (35:19.600)

the preparation is completely different

Lex Fridman (35:21.320)

because it's more conversational.

Lex Fridman (35:22.960)

And so there, I don't do any of this business

Lex Fridman (35:24.560)

of putting myself into state.

Andrew Huberman (35:26.280)

I just try and make sure that the guest is taken care of.

Lex Fridman (35:30.080)

And I do list out the questions I'm gonna ask before,

Lex Fridman (35:32.920)

but those actually really like the interview episodes

Lex Fridman (35:35.440)

far more than I like doing the solo ones.

Andrew Huberman (35:37.920)

Just psychologically I mean.

Lex Fridman (35:39.160)

I just like learning from someone directly

Andrew Huberman (35:41.520)

because you asking an expert about something,

Lex Fridman (35:44.080)

like sitting here with you when we recorded the podcast

Andrew Huberman (35:46.680)

where you were a guest on the Huberman Lab podcast.

Lex Fridman (35:48.560)

And for the first time, and finally,

Andrew Huberman (35:51.480)

someone was explaining to me the difference

Lex Fridman (35:53.200)

between machine learning, artificial intelligence

Lex Fridman (35:55.160)

and all these other things.

Lex Fridman (35:56.440)

You know, and I've finally forgiven you

Andrew Huberman (35:58.040)

for making me cry about Costello on camera,

Lex Fridman (36:02.400)

because it helped me move through it.

Lex Fridman (36:03.560)

But in all seriousness, the interview ones

Lex Fridman (36:06.160)

are a sheer pleasure.

Andrew Huberman (36:08.560)

The solo ones I really enjoy, but they're work.

Lex Fridman (36:12.600)

Sometimes I think like I'm gonna sweat

Andrew Huberman (36:14.120)

a little blood prepping for them.

Lex Fridman (36:16.120)

Well, it's interesting because I do think prepping

Andrew Huberman (36:18.480)

for interviews, having a similar process

Lex Fridman (36:21.160)

might be also very valuable.

Andrew Huberman (36:23.000)

Like I have to think about that

Lex Fridman (36:26.280)

because I think when you do a conversation

Andrew Huberman (36:31.200)

for several hours, especially when it's a high stakes one.

Lex Fridman (36:35.000)

So it's not like you and I know,

Andrew Huberman (36:36.720)

it's more like it's just chatting and so on.

Lex Fridman (36:38.560)

The world order isn't gonna shift according to it.

Andrew Huberman (36:40.720)

Although you never know, knowing you will probably

Lex Fridman (36:43.320)

be into some pretty controversial topics in a few minutes.

Andrew Huberman (36:46.000)

You like to ride the edge more than I do.

Lex Fridman (36:48.080)

There are a number of topics that I just completely avoid.

Lex Fridman (36:50.360)

And my response to those is always that

Lex Fridman (36:52.560)

I have a lot of opinions about that,

Lex Fridman (36:54.080)

but not a lot to say, you know.

Lex Fridman (36:55.800)

But whereas you've become far braver

Andrew Huberman (37:00.720)

in terms of the topics you'll encounter

Lex Fridman (37:02.800)

and some of your guests have been a bit controversial.

Andrew Huberman (37:06.200)

Some of them are people that a lot of people don't like.

Lex Fridman (37:11.080)

And you've been willing to just sit down

Lex Fridman (37:13.760)

and maybe it's the jujitsu thing.

Lex Fridman (37:16.240)

I don't know, it is tricky.

Andrew Huberman (37:18.080)

One of my goals for this year is to talk to people

Lex Fridman (37:20.840)

that a lot of people really don't like.

Lex Fridman (37:24.520)

Are you gonna share with us?

Lex Fridman (37:26.200)

And here I am.

Andrew Huberman (37:27.040)

People that are in prison, major political leaders

Lex Fridman (37:34.280)

have been thinking a lot about how to talk

Andrew Huberman (37:37.000)

to really difficult, controversial figures,

Lex Fridman (37:41.280)

but find together something with them

Andrew Huberman (37:45.160)

that's deeply honest about their nature,

Lex Fridman (37:47.680)

about the ideas they have about the world.

Andrew Huberman (37:54.280)

Reveal something real.

Lex Fridman (37:56.600)

And some people, you have to be very careful,

Andrew Huberman (37:59.440)

some people are very good at hiding the real inside them,

Lex Fridman (38:03.560)

even from themselves.

Andrew Huberman (38:05.240)

That's something I think about a lot.

Lex Fridman (38:06.600)

I think about dictators of the past

Lex Fridman (38:08.320)

and I put myself in the mindset,

Lex Fridman (38:09.960)

well, how do you reveal something real

Lex Fridman (38:12.720)

about this person to themselves?

Lex Fridman (38:14.720)

I think that to me, and you kind of spoke to that,

Lex Fridman (38:17.640)

but a great conversation is one where

Lex Fridman (38:22.640)

both of you discover something new.

Lex Fridman (38:28.840)

So I love that too, that's my favorite thing

Lex Fridman (38:31.280)

what you mentioned, which is allowing your curiosity

Lex Fridman (38:33.640)

and ask all kinds of questions and get excited

Lex Fridman (38:35.520)

and to learn from an expert.

Lex Fridman (38:37.240)

But also to push them to discover something

Lex Fridman (38:40.520)

about themselves, about their ideas together.

Lex Fridman (38:44.320)

And then that discovery, and sometimes it's like,

Lex Fridman (38:48.840)

we don't see it in the moment, but the audience hears it.

Andrew Huberman (38:55.440)

It's weird to say, I would compare it to

Lex Fridman (38:58.240)

when you're a musician and you're playing

Andrew Huberman (38:59.520)

with other musicians, you lose yourself in the moment.

Lex Fridman (39:02.080)

Yeah, it's all, it's like, it's working right.

Andrew Huberman (39:04.360)

It's working, but you don't really see the big picture

Lex Fridman (39:09.800)

impact of what it's working right actually feels like.

Lex Fridman (39:13.760)

And that's where the audience could see that.

Lex Fridman (39:17.680)

If you talk to somebody evil,

Andrew Huberman (39:22.920)

for me as an interviewer, I have to empathize

Lex Fridman (39:26.560)

with that person.

Andrew Huberman (39:27.560)

If I want to understand, I have to put myself

Lex Fridman (39:29.840)

in that mind space, and to put yourself in that mindset,

Andrew Huberman (39:32.920)

you really have to understand the evil inside of you.

Lex Fridman (39:38.560)

Like you can't just think if somebody's in power

Lex Fridman (39:41.360)

and has used that power to abuse others,

Lex Fridman (39:45.200)

you can't just be a, I personally,

Andrew Huberman (39:48.160)

a person who seeks to understand.

Lex Fridman (39:49.960)

You can't just be a journalist asking generic questions.

Andrew Huberman (39:52.920)

You have to put yourself in a place

Lex Fridman (39:55.840)

where you're somebody who's given a lot of power

Lex Fridman (39:58.480)

and slowly you start to abuse that power.

Lex Fridman (3:00:01.460)

but I'm sure we can take out the reverb.

Lex Fridman (3:00:04.060)

So Sergey wants to ask you about sex performance.

Lex Fridman (3:00:09.820)

Very journalistic, very hardcore hitting questions

Andrew Huberman (3:00:12.340)

that we have here on the.

Lex Fridman (3:00:13.180)

Generally, or a specific.

Andrew Huberman (3:00:15.140)

No, he has a certain problem he needs help with, no.

Lex Fridman (3:00:18.260)

Generally, you haven't done an episode on sex.

Andrew Huberman (3:00:21.580)

Well, we did an episode early on, on sexual development.

Lex Fridman (3:00:24.940)

Yes.

Andrew Huberman (3:00:25.760)

We've done them on optimizing testosterone and estrogen.

Lex Fridman (3:00:27.660)

And we touched a little bit on the, on libido

Lex Fridman (3:00:31.300)

and somewhat on sex performance, but not much.

Lex Fridman (3:00:34.900)

We did an episode on relationships, love and desire,

Andrew Huberman (3:00:38.420)

where we touched on libido specifically.

Lex Fridman (3:00:40.740)

So just as a quick mention of something,

Andrew Huberman (3:00:43.060)

a lot of people take SSRIs or antidepressants

Lex Fridman (3:00:46.060)

that can disrupt sexual function.

Andrew Huberman (3:00:47.860)

There are a few compounds like maca root and punga ali

Lex Fridman (3:00:51.720)

and things like that, that at least in a few studies

Andrew Huberman (3:00:53.680)

in humans have been shown to offset

Lex Fridman (3:00:55.180)

some of the sexual side effects.

Andrew Huberman (3:00:57.260)

Now, in terms of sexual, and then the, sorry,

Lex Fridman (3:01:01.300)

the episode on sexual development was about how the brain

Lex Fridman (3:01:04.220)

and body become organized in certain ways,

Lex Fridman (3:01:06.340)

how the brain becomes organized if you have X chromosomes

Andrew Huberman (3:01:09.380)

or Y chromosomes or et cetera.

Lex Fridman (3:01:11.060)

So early, early development.

Andrew Huberman (3:01:12.100)

Early development mainly.

Lex Fridman (3:01:13.220)

And the effects of hormones later on that template.

Andrew Huberman (3:01:16.540)

We will be doing a, I'm actually putting together a series

Lex Fridman (3:01:21.000)

on sexual health, everything from the menstrual cycle,

Andrew Huberman (3:01:26.000)

which both men and women should understand, of course,

Lex Fridman (3:01:28.940)

understanding arousal, understanding, for instance,

Andrew Huberman (3:01:32.060)

a lot of people don't realize this,

Lex Fridman (3:01:33.140)

but that orgasm is actually the consequence of activity

Andrew Huberman (3:01:37.000)

in the sympathetic, meaning the stress arm

Lex Fridman (3:01:40.220)

of the autonomic nervous system.

Andrew Huberman (3:01:42.580)

Whereas arousal is the consequence of the activity

Lex Fridman (3:01:46.680)

of the parasympathetic, the calming aspect

Andrew Huberman (3:01:49.220)

of the autonomic nervous system.

Lex Fridman (3:01:51.300)

That's counterintuitive, right?

Andrew Huberman (3:01:52.700)

It's counterintuitive and it kind of works like a seesaw.

Lex Fridman (3:01:55.020)

I mean, there's arousal, then there's relaxation,

Andrew Huberman (3:01:56.860)

then there's arousal, and then immediately after orgasm

Lex Fridman (3:02:01.620)

and in males ejaculation, what ends up happening

Andrew Huberman (3:02:03.540)

is there's a rebounding of the parasympathetic nervous system

Lex Fridman (3:02:07.020)

which it leads to oftentimes people feeling very relaxed

Andrew Huberman (3:02:09.580)

or falling asleep.

Lex Fridman (3:02:11.380)

So I'm going to do a short series on sexual health

Andrew Huberman (3:02:15.100)

that will include stuff about sexual performance,

Lex Fridman (3:02:17.980)

but also some, I'm working on getting an expert guest

Andrew Huberman (3:02:22.980)

who can talk about some of the neurologic changes

Lex Fridman (3:02:26.820)

that happen as a consequence of sexual activity.

Lex Fridman (3:02:30.380)

And we did an episode with a guy from UT Austin here,

Lex Fridman (3:02:33.900)

David Buss, who's an evolutionary psychologist,

Andrew Huberman (3:02:36.320)

talking about, it went pretty deep into some of the typical

Lex Fridman (3:02:41.240)

and unusual dynamics of mating relation,

Andrew Huberman (3:02:44.900)

whether or not people have kids or not and what impacts that,

Lex Fridman (3:02:46.940)

but we're going to do an episode on menopause, andropause.

Andrew Huberman (3:02:49.620)

What's very surprising is I get a lot of questions

Lex Fridman (3:02:52.500)

about sexual health from the young male audience,

Andrew Huberman (3:02:56.780)

which tells me that, well, here's what I think it reflects.

Lex Fridman (3:03:00.240)

I think that women, because of their menstrual cycles,

Andrew Huberman (3:03:03.460)

early on start to talk to one another about changes

Lex Fridman (3:03:06.540)

in physiology and psychology as a function

Andrew Huberman (3:03:08.540)

of this 28 day cycle that they all experience

Lex Fridman (3:03:10.500)

sooner or later.

Andrew Huberman (3:03:11.820)

Males, there's less of a conversation

Lex Fridman (3:03:14.120)

and it usually arrives in code.

Andrew Huberman (3:03:15.700)

People will say, hey, what should I take

Lex Fridman (3:03:16.900)

to increase my testosterone?

Lex Fridman (3:03:18.220)

And I'll say, well, maybe nothing.

Lex Fridman (3:03:20.500)

You know, what are you specifically concerned about?

Lex Fridman (3:03:23.580)

And then over time, if you pull on those threads

Lex Fridman (3:03:25.340)

a little bit, you know, you get your answer.

Andrew Huberman (3:03:28.200)

Sometimes I'll just get a direct question.

Lex Fridman (3:03:30.720)

But I think that the psychology of all this

Lex Fridman (3:03:33.500)

and in terms of jealousy and the terms of notions

Lex Fridman (3:03:36.860)

of roles and relationships is very dynamic right now.

Lex Fridman (3:03:40.500)

And I'm fascinated by this.

Lex Fridman (3:03:41.660)

So we're going to do a four episode series.

Lex Fridman (3:03:43.740)

What about sexual fantasy?

Lex Fridman (3:03:46.500)

What, to get Freudian for a second,

Lex Fridman (3:03:48.860)

what role does sexual fantasy have in the human condition?

Lex Fridman (3:03:52.820)

There's a book called The Erotic Imagination.

Andrew Huberman (3:03:56.060)

It's a very psychoanalytic book written

Lex Fridman (3:03:57.500)

by a psychoanalyst that talks about how,

Andrew Huberman (3:04:01.220)

well, here's the uncomfortable reality.

Lex Fridman (3:04:03.180)

Freud was at least right about one thing,

Andrew Huberman (3:04:05.260)

which is that the brain circuitry that you used

Lex Fridman (3:04:09.020)

to develop attachments to your caregivers,

Andrew Huberman (3:04:11.180)

mother and father or other caregivers,

Lex Fridman (3:04:14.300)

do not disappear when you hit puberty.

Andrew Huberman (3:04:16.700)

They are repurposed for romantic and sexual relations.

Lex Fridman (3:04:20.380)

And so this is why the whole notion of anxious attached

Lex Fridman (3:04:23.780)

and secure attached, you know, stems from childhood

Lex Fridman (3:04:26.300)

attachment patterns, but it carries over

Andrew Huberman (3:04:27.940)

to romantic relationships.

Lex Fridman (3:04:29.820)

So that the relationship with your mother has.

Lex Fridman (3:04:32.580)

And father.

Lex Fridman (3:04:33.420)

And father has a, and probably other close people to you

Andrew Huberman (3:04:36.980)

in your young age has a secondary, tertiary,

Lex Fridman (3:04:41.340)

some kind of ripple effect on how your sexuality developed.

Andrew Huberman (3:04:44.420)

Like what fantasies you might have, all that.

Lex Fridman (3:04:46.180)

No, without question.

Lex Fridman (3:04:47.220)

And of course, early experiences too,

Lex Fridman (3:04:48.980)

and traumatic or positive or neutral.

Andrew Huberman (3:04:51.780)

The thing that's really important to remember though,

Lex Fridman (3:04:53.580)

in this transfer of circuitry from one role to another

Andrew Huberman (3:04:57.180)

is that, and it's certainly consistent with psychoanalysis

Lex Fridman (3:05:00.860)

that gender is interchangeable, sex is interchangeable.

Lex Fridman (3:05:04.820)

So for instance, let's say you had a wonderful relationship.

Lex Fridman (3:05:07.660)

Let's say this, let's take a hypothetical person, okay?

Andrew Huberman (3:05:10.860)

I'm truly not referring to myself.

Lex Fridman (3:05:12.220)

Let's take a young woman who has a wonderful relationship

Andrew Huberman (3:05:15.700)

with her father and a just absolutely terrible

Lex Fridman (3:05:18.660)

abusive relationship to her mother.

Andrew Huberman (3:05:20.340)

Just for sake of example.

Lex Fridman (3:05:22.620)

She then goes into adulthood and she is drawn

Andrew Huberman (3:05:26.420)

to very abusive men.

Lex Fridman (3:05:28.980)

Not always, but let's just use in this example.

Lex Fridman (3:05:32.180)

And the dynamic is exactly the same

Lex Fridman (3:05:34.260)

as the dynamic she had with her mother.

Andrew Huberman (3:05:36.100)

That's actually a common occurrence.

Lex Fridman (3:05:37.900)

Even though in this context, she's heterosexual,

Andrew Huberman (3:05:40.580)

she's romantically attracted to men.

Lex Fridman (3:05:41.980)

What is seen over and over again is that the dynamic

Andrew Huberman (3:05:44.660)

with one parent can be transferred onto a romantic dynamic,

Lex Fridman (3:05:47.620)

but it doesn't have to be, you know,

Andrew Huberman (3:05:49.540)

that if it was with the mother,

Lex Fridman (3:05:51.100)

then it only has to do with relationships to women.

Lex Fridman (3:05:53.380)

So gender is interchangeable

Lex Fridman (3:05:54.940)

because these circuitries are presexual.

Andrew Huberman (3:05:58.300)

They're laid down in our brain

Lex Fridman (3:06:00.020)

before the brain has any concept of sexual interactions.

Andrew Huberman (3:06:04.220)

It's preverbal, excuse me.

Lex Fridman (3:06:06.620)

And so there are a lot of interesting examples

Lex Fridman (3:06:09.860)

and data to support this.

Lex Fridman (3:06:11.100)

The book Attached is a pretty interesting book

Andrew Huberman (3:06:14.700)

by two psychologists.

Lex Fridman (3:06:16.260)

One I think is at Columbia University

Andrew Huberman (3:06:19.140)

that talks about how childhood dynamics carry over

Lex Fridman (3:06:22.700)

to adult romantic attachment.

Lex Fridman (3:06:25.620)

So as you can tell, I get pretty alert

Lex Fridman (3:06:27.820)

in response to these questions.

Andrew Huberman (3:06:29.140)

I get a lot of them relate in this domain.

Lex Fridman (3:06:32.140)

They have a lot of impact on people

Lex Fridman (3:06:33.620)

and they're wondering about, they wanna learn.

Lex Fridman (3:06:35.380)

And no one knows what other people are doing

Andrew Huberman (3:06:37.060)

or what's normal.

Lex Fridman (3:06:37.900)

We kind of know deviancy.

Andrew Huberman (3:06:39.220)

We know perversion.

Lex Fridman (3:06:40.100)

We know the extremes.

Andrew Huberman (3:06:42.100)

We know the rules.

Lex Fridman (3:06:43.100)

Hopefully people know the rules,

Lex Fridman (3:06:44.460)

but let's just be,

Lex Fridman (3:06:47.660)

there are a lot of people in the academic community,

Andrew Huberman (3:06:51.660)

in particular at certain East Coast schools not to be named

Lex Fridman (3:06:54.780)

that are in open relationships.

Andrew Huberman (3:06:57.580)

This is more common now.

Lex Fridman (3:06:59.940)

It's not very common, but it's more common.

Lex Fridman (3:07:03.340)

And obviously that's a way of bypassing

Lex Fridman (3:07:06.900)

some of these more primitive emotions

Andrew Huberman (3:07:08.540)

about jealousy, et cetera,

Lex Fridman (3:07:10.220)

and leveraging them towards

Andrew Huberman (3:07:12.300)

maybe even ongoing relationships.

Lex Fridman (3:07:13.920)

I'm not passing judgment one way or the other.

Andrew Huberman (3:07:16.060)

I always say four conditions have to be met

Lex Fridman (3:07:18.420)

for any discussion about sex and sexuality

Andrew Huberman (3:07:21.020)

or sexual health.

Lex Fridman (3:07:21.980)

Age appropriate, context appropriate,

Andrew Huberman (3:07:25.060)

consensual and species appropriate.

Lex Fridman (3:07:28.300)

Well, that's weird because the thing I'm trying to figure out

Andrew Huberman (3:07:31.600)

is why my sexual fantasy is to go to furry orgies

Lex Fridman (3:07:36.600)

and have sex with others dressed as squirrels

Lex Fridman (3:07:41.180)

and me, the other animals.

Lex Fridman (3:07:43.340)

So that could be, I'll see a therapist about that one.

Lex Fridman (3:07:48.100)

Can I ask you?

Lex Fridman (3:07:48.940)

I'm not gonna respond to that except to say that

Andrew Huberman (3:07:52.260)

as long as those four conditions are met.

Lex Fridman (3:07:54.580)

Yeah.

Andrew Huberman (3:07:55.420)

Consensual, age appropriate,

Lex Fridman (3:07:56.260)

context appropriate, species appropriate.

Lex Fridman (3:07:57.860)

So there's a bunch of questions on Instagram.

Lex Fridman (3:08:00.860)

One of them on this topic, on relationships,

Andrew Huberman (3:08:05.260)

somebody suggested to do a part three of why Lex is single.

Lex Fridman (3:08:08.540)

There's a running joke about this.

Andrew Huberman (3:08:11.420)

So.

Lex Fridman (3:08:12.260)

But I can answer it in part, right?

Andrew Huberman (3:08:14.620)

Because, well, partially because you're very busy,

Lex Fridman (3:08:17.340)

partially because you've decided that until it's time,

Lex Fridman (3:08:22.980)

you're gonna wait until it's time, it's time, right?

Lex Fridman (3:08:26.680)

I mean, until it's time, you're waiting.

Lex Fridman (3:08:28.140)

And then, I mean, not saving yourself for marriage,

Lex Fridman (3:08:31.060)

I don't think, but in some sense,

Andrew Huberman (3:08:34.420)

yeah, your future wife is out there.

Lex Fridman (3:08:37.700)

Oh yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman (3:08:38.540)

She's being programmed.

Lex Fridman (3:08:39.820)

No, I mean, I definitely believe that.

Andrew Huberman (3:08:43.100)

I mean, first of all, I just love people

Lex Fridman (3:08:45.140)

and I fall in love very easily with people,

Andrew Huberman (3:08:47.060)

with objects, with things, with life, with every moment.

Lex Fridman (3:08:50.140)

And that way you're like Oliver Sacks,

Andrew Huberman (3:08:51.940)

he would fall in love with minerals

Lex Fridman (3:08:54.800)

and concepts and things like that.

Lex Fridman (3:08:56.540)

And so like to me, this kind of,

Lex Fridman (3:08:58.740)

so relationship is more like a commitment

Andrew Huberman (3:09:04.020)

to one particular kind of object of your love.

Lex Fridman (3:09:10.380)

Like it's almost like a,

Andrew Huberman (3:09:12.800)

it's like a journey that you take on together

Lex Fridman (3:09:14.940)

because also the interesting thing about humans

Andrew Huberman (3:09:18.020)

is they're moment by moment a different person,

Lex Fridman (3:09:20.900)

day by day, week by week, month by month,

Andrew Huberman (3:09:23.260)

they change, they evolve.

Lex Fridman (3:09:24.820)

There's an ups and downs and stuff like that.

Lex Fridman (3:09:26.720)

So what you're doing is you're saying,

Lex Fridman (3:09:29.140)

well, I'm going to explore all the ways

Andrew Huberman (3:09:31.380)

that this human gets morphed and changed

Lex Fridman (3:09:34.460)

and what makes them cry, what makes them excited,

Lex Fridman (3:09:38.500)

what makes them lonely, like the habits,

Lex Fridman (3:09:44.460)

like when they form certain habits,

Lex Fridman (3:09:47.180)

how they feel when those habits are broken,

Lex Fridman (3:09:49.260)

like the stupid minute things that make everyday life,

Andrew Huberman (3:09:52.740)

you're gonna be on that journey together

Lex Fridman (3:09:54.900)

figuring that out, just the way we're trying to figure

Andrew Huberman (3:09:56.940)

ourselves out when we're like optimizing these things

Lex Fridman (3:10:00.020)

about diet and health and so on,

Andrew Huberman (3:10:01.460)

you're kind of doing this computation together

Lex Fridman (3:10:04.380)

because neither person really understands themselves

Andrew Huberman (3:10:08.260)

at all and you're together both confused about each other

Lex Fridman (3:10:11.260)

and you get to almost like a relationship is a chance

Andrew Huberman (3:10:16.620)

to understand yourself and to understand another person,

Lex Fridman (3:10:21.620)

like together, that process is somewhat iterative.

Lex Fridman (3:10:25.860)

You know the dynamics, right?

Lex Fridman (3:10:27.180)

I mean, you're merging two nervous systems.

Andrew Huberman (3:10:29.300)

This was once described to me very well by an ex girlfriend

Lex Fridman (3:10:32.100)

who's truly brilliant, she's really brilliant.

Andrew Huberman (3:10:36.980)

She said, you know, there's four arrows.

Lex Fridman (3:10:39.500)

This is maybe to an engineer or like a, so it makes sense.

Andrew Huberman (3:10:42.980)

There's how you feel towards the other person.

Lex Fridman (3:10:45.340)

There's how they feel towards you,

Lex Fridman (3:10:47.420)

but then there's an arrow that comes back to you,

Lex Fridman (3:10:51.020)

which is how you feel about how they feel.

Lex Fridman (3:10:54.940)

And then they have an arrow of how they feel

Lex Fridman (3:10:56.720)

about how you feel, right?

Andrew Huberman (3:10:57.940)

This is why if someone else is moody

Lex Fridman (3:10:59.460)

or somebody else is upset,

Andrew Huberman (3:11:01.900)

there's one version of ourselves where we respond to that

Lex Fridman (3:11:05.020)

or they respond to us,

Lex Fridman (3:11:06.340)

but there's another version where we respond to that,

Lex Fridman (3:11:09.580)

but it's also, there's a processing of what it means for us

Andrew Huberman (3:11:12.660)

that they're behaving that way or feeling that way.

Lex Fridman (3:11:15.460)

And this again leads us back

Andrew Huberman (3:11:17.780)

to that early attachment circuitry

Lex Fridman (3:11:19.300)

because if a parent was stressed,

Andrew Huberman (3:11:22.900)

the child's role is not to soothe the parent.

Lex Fridman (3:11:25.860)

In fact, healthy models of parenting say

Andrew Huberman (3:11:27.500)

that children shouldn't actually know how their parents feel

Lex Fridman (3:11:30.840)

for like the first eight years of their life.

Andrew Huberman (3:11:32.860)

They're not supposed to be in that mindset

Lex Fridman (3:11:34.420)

of empathizing for the parent.

Andrew Huberman (3:11:35.900)

This is often not the case,

Lex Fridman (3:11:37.780)

but maybe the cutoff isn't exactly eight,

Lex Fridman (3:11:40.080)

but you get the idea.

Lex Fridman (3:11:41.240)

So the dynamics of relationship are where the learning is

Andrew Huberman (3:11:44.060)

because we learn how we react to other people reacting.

Lex Fridman (3:11:46.660)

It's not just a two arrow system.

Andrew Huberman (3:11:49.060)

It's at least this four arrow thing.

Lex Fridman (3:11:52.320)

But there's also the element of nurturing, right?

Andrew Huberman (3:11:54.900)

I mean, I think that going through life with somebody

Lex Fridman (3:11:57.860)

is so much better than going through it alone.

Lex Fridman (3:12:00.140)

And I'd never thought I'd make that statement.

Lex Fridman (3:12:04.180)

So it wasn't always obvious to you?

Andrew Huberman (3:12:05.860)

No, it wasn't always obvious to me.

Lex Fridman (3:12:07.340)

I mean, I've really enjoyed wonderful relationships

Lex Fridman (3:12:11.260)

and some have been hard

Lex Fridman (3:12:12.540)

and there's certainly been a lot of growth.

Andrew Huberman (3:12:14.500)

I'm on good terms with almost all my former girlfriends

Lex Fridman (3:12:18.940)

and close with some enough that I know their spouses

Lex Fridman (3:12:21.960)

and I'm close with their families.

Lex Fridman (3:12:24.700)

But no, it wasn't.

Lex Fridman (3:12:25.740)

And I think that when people say relationship is hard,

Lex Fridman (3:12:29.680)

the only really hard part of a good relationship

Andrew Huberman (3:12:32.960)

is just dealing with oneself

Lex Fridman (3:12:34.340)

and making sure that you're staying

Andrew Huberman (3:12:35.540)

in that mode of caretaking.

Lex Fridman (3:12:38.000)

Because I do believe that if one is mainly focused

Andrew Huberman (3:12:40.800)

on taking good care of the other person,

Lex Fridman (3:12:42.700)

provided they're also focused on taking good care of you,

Andrew Huberman (3:12:46.400)

to some extent, and we're good at taking care of ourselves,

Lex Fridman (3:12:49.040)

everybody flourishes, everything gets better.

Lex Fridman (3:12:51.040)

But no, I don't think I experienced that

Lex Fridman (3:12:52.940)

until fairly recently.

Lex Fridman (3:12:54.880)

What do you think is the secret

Lex Fridman (3:12:58.380)

to a successful relationship?

Andrew Huberman (3:13:02.900)

There isn't just one, but at least in the top five

Lex Fridman (3:13:07.360)

is master or at least be good at autonomic self regulation.

Andrew Huberman (3:13:12.360)

Be good at autonomic self regulation.

Lex Fridman (3:13:16.300)

Know how to calm yourself down.

Andrew Huberman (3:13:18.700)

Don't expect the, like looking to anything external

Lex Fridman (3:13:21.700)

to soothe yourself is it puts you in a terrible position

Lex Fridman (3:13:24.720)

to be a caretaker of yourself and other people, right?

Lex Fridman (3:13:27.700)

So learn how to self soothe, right?

Andrew Huberman (3:13:29.200)

Learn how to calm your mind, steady your actions,

Lex Fridman (3:13:32.460)

steady your voice.

Andrew Huberman (3:13:33.500)

There are tools to do that.

Lex Fridman (3:13:34.420)

We talk about on the podcast, but elsewhere,

Andrew Huberman (3:13:35.900)

have that in place.

Lex Fridman (3:13:36.900)

I also think that if your main focus is on,

Andrew Huberman (3:13:41.900)

you want to have a good boundaries, et cetera,

Lex Fridman (3:13:43.860)

but on tending to the relationship,

Andrew Huberman (3:13:46.420)

doing a little bit more than you think you ought to do,

Lex Fridman (3:13:48.540)

if everyone does that, it goes great.

Andrew Huberman (3:13:50.740)

I mean, I'm sometimes so positively struck

Lex Fridman (3:13:52.880)

by how supported I feel because for many years,

Andrew Huberman (3:13:57.840)

I was just kind of doing everything on my own.

Lex Fridman (3:13:59.620)

So any little thing, I'm like, oh my goodness,

Andrew Huberman (3:14:01.180)

this feels huge.

Lex Fridman (3:14:02.780)

And also I think the dynamics have to be right.

Andrew Huberman (3:14:04.980)

Let's be really honest.

Lex Fridman (3:14:05.860)

This is a little bit of a tricky topic,

Lex Fridman (3:14:07.500)

but there is a power dynamic in relationships.

Lex Fridman (3:14:13.460)

Sometimes, not all, but in some relationships,

Andrew Huberman (3:14:16.400)

it works much better if one person leads

Lex Fridman (3:14:18.500)

and the other person follows.

Andrew Huberman (3:14:21.100)

In other relationships, it's more mutuality, works best.

Lex Fridman (3:14:24.820)

People need to know what they need.

Lex Fridman (3:14:26.880)

And so knowing what you need and what you crave

Lex Fridman (3:14:29.300)

is really important.

Lex Fridman (3:14:30.260)

And then once you do that,

Lex Fridman (3:14:31.100)

you can create the relationship you want.

Andrew Huberman (3:14:33.400)

I've seen that over and over again.

Lex Fridman (3:14:34.760)

And people are different.

Lex Fridman (3:14:36.020)

But I think that ultimately, I mean, right,

Lex Fridman (3:14:41.300)

there's the dopamine phase of a relationship.

Lex Fridman (3:14:44.740)

And then there's the serotonin phase,

Lex Fridman (3:14:46.140)

the kind of more mutuality, coziness and sweetness.

Andrew Huberman (3:14:49.020)

There's a great book about how to make sure

Lex Fridman (3:14:52.220)

that the dopamine component and the serotonin component,

Lex Fridman (3:14:56.460)

so to speak, go on forever.

Lex Fridman (3:14:58.540)

And it has to do with, you know,

Andrew Huberman (3:14:59.780)

when you first meet someone and you're attracted to them,

Lex Fridman (3:15:01.400)

you're essentially objectifying them,

Andrew Huberman (3:15:04.500)

meaning not in the way people might think,

Lex Fridman (3:15:07.100)

you are not dependent on them

Andrew Huberman (3:15:09.500)

for emotional stability or survival.

Lex Fridman (3:15:11.700)

As you get close to somebody,

Andrew Huberman (3:15:12.860)

you really come to depend on them

Lex Fridman (3:15:14.820)

and then you tend to objectify them less.

Lex Fridman (3:15:16.500)

And so this book, the name is kind of corny,

Lex Fridman (3:15:18.820)

but it's written by an analyst again,

Lex Fridman (3:15:20.280)

it's called Can Love Last?

Lex Fridman (3:15:21.620)

And it's a book about how really good, strong relationships

Andrew Huberman (3:15:26.260)

are the consequence of people constantly moving

Lex Fridman (3:15:28.560)

through this dependency objectification dynamic.

Lex Fridman (3:15:33.260)

And I use those words in the psychological sense,

Lex Fridman (3:15:37.060)

not in the way they're typically thrown around nowadays.

Lex Fridman (3:15:39.100)

So in some cultures,

Lex Fridman (3:15:41.940)

men and women will only touch

Andrew Huberman (3:15:45.020)

for two weeks out of the month.

Lex Fridman (3:15:46.900)

And then for the other two weeks,

Andrew Huberman (3:15:49.500)

the excitement and the sensuality and all,

Lex Fridman (3:15:52.540)

and the sexuality is very heightened.

Lex Fridman (3:15:54.660)

And then they go back to this kind of distancing.

Lex Fridman (3:15:56.460)

Now, I don't think that's feasible for most people,

Lex Fridman (3:15:58.660)

but if you look statistically,

Lex Fridman (3:16:00.200)

those relationships tend to last a very long time

Andrew Huberman (3:16:02.900)

with at least reported mutual feelings

Lex Fridman (3:16:05.940)

of intense attraction for many, many, many decades.

Lex Fridman (3:16:10.500)

So human beings need to learn how to at least understand

Lex Fridman (3:16:14.660)

and control these dynamics.

Lex Fridman (3:16:16.060)

And there's a lot of divorce, there's a lot of cheating,

Lex Fridman (3:16:17.860)

there's a lot of stuff out there.

Andrew Huberman (3:16:18.860)

It'd be great if people could resolve some of this stuff

Lex Fridman (3:16:20.900)

inside of the relationship, in my opinion.

Andrew Huberman (3:16:24.260)

Yeah, and this kind of intense attraction,

Lex Fridman (3:16:26.860)

there's actually one of the poems

Andrew Huberman (3:16:32.900)

that Karl Deisseroth introduced me to.

Lex Fridman (3:16:36.020)

I think it's Two English Poems is the name.

Lex Fridman (3:16:38.340)

But one of the things I find myself

Lex Fridman (3:16:41.960)

for prolonged periods being attracted to

Andrew Huberman (3:16:45.900)

is you notice some kind of magic

Lex Fridman (3:16:50.640)

and you keep wanting to dig to the depths of that magic.

Andrew Huberman (3:16:55.640)

You need to really know that person.

Lex Fridman (3:16:57.800)

To really know a person deeply, yeah.

Andrew Huberman (3:17:00.360)

You notice something early on.

Lex Fridman (3:17:03.400)

I don't know what that is,

Lex Fridman (3:17:04.500)

but you just notice something special

Lex Fridman (3:17:06.640)

and you want to keep pulling at that thread

Lex Fridman (3:17:09.080)

and you never really do.

Lex Fridman (3:17:10.640)

Well, you also have to be careful.

Andrew Huberman (3:17:12.040)

I get a lot of questions from guys.

Lex Fridman (3:17:13.600)

You have to be careful the questions you ask

Andrew Huberman (3:17:15.060)

in a relationship too.

Lex Fridman (3:17:16.400)

You have to make sure you really want that information.

Lex Fridman (3:17:18.400)

And it's not just about people's past, right?

Lex Fridman (3:17:20.080)

If you ask somebody how they really feel

Andrew Huberman (3:17:21.800)

about something about you and they tell you,

Lex Fridman (3:17:24.680)

that may be soothing.

Andrew Huberman (3:17:25.960)

It may be intensely stressful.

Lex Fridman (3:17:27.900)

You have to be, here's one thing I know for sure.

Andrew Huberman (3:17:31.240)

For a relationship to work, you have to be brave.

Lex Fridman (3:17:34.900)

You can't go in there fully protected.

Lex Fridman (3:17:37.480)

And yet you also can't go in there with no boundaries

Lex Fridman (3:17:39.680)

because you'll end up beat up.

Lex Fridman (3:17:42.240)

What's that quote?

Lex Fridman (3:17:43.260)

If you want to be a warrior, prepare to get hurt.

Andrew Huberman (3:17:45.160)

If you want to be an explorer, prepare to get lost.

Lex Fridman (3:17:47.280)

And if you want to be both, you know,

Andrew Huberman (3:17:49.440)

if you become a lover, prepare to be both or something.

Lex Fridman (3:17:52.080)

Something like that.

Andrew Huberman (3:17:52.920)

I forget, this is one of these Instagram type things

Lex Fridman (3:17:55.080)

that you see passing by and you go, oh, that's pretty true.

Andrew Huberman (3:17:56.880)

Love is scary because it takes us back

Lex Fridman (3:17:59.920)

to that primitive circuitry that is as primitive

Lex Fridman (3:18:03.000)

and basic as hunger, thirst, the desire for heat

Lex Fridman (3:18:05.820)

when we're cold, the desire for cold when we're overly warm.

Andrew Huberman (3:18:10.040)

It's a, it's Dynorphin.

Lex Fridman (3:18:11.940)

I mean, when somebody leaves, like the, you know,

Andrew Huberman (3:18:14.600)

when somebody you are attached to leaves by death

Lex Fridman (3:18:17.880)

or by decision or you're forced apart,

Andrew Huberman (3:18:20.680)

the Dynorphin release is massive.

Lex Fridman (3:18:23.160)

It is true discomfort.

Andrew Huberman (3:18:24.520)

People feel anxiety and discomfort.

Lex Fridman (3:18:27.760)

And moving through that is a hell of a process.

Andrew Huberman (3:18:30.240)

I mean, if I knew how to best break up

Lex Fridman (3:18:32.820)

at a neurological level,

Andrew Huberman (3:18:34.520)

or if you could just plug yourself into a wall and reset,

Lex Fridman (3:18:37.200)

I mean, I'd do that episode tomorrow,

Lex Fridman (3:18:39.400)

but we don't have that knowledge.

Lex Fridman (3:18:41.360)

Come on, I think we've covered this before

Lex Fridman (3:18:44.100)

and it's even been memeified.

Lex Fridman (3:18:45.840)

I think losing love is part of the magic of love.

Andrew Huberman (3:18:49.560)

It means you've felt something.

Lex Fridman (3:18:51.480)

I agree, but at some point,

Andrew Huberman (3:18:52.880)

like if you've done it enough times,

Lex Fridman (3:18:54.720)

you know, life is finite, you know.

Andrew Huberman (3:18:57.480)

It is beautiful to see these couples

Lex Fridman (3:18:59.840)

that seem very much in love despite many years,

Andrew Huberman (3:19:04.960)

despite having been together many years.

Lex Fridman (3:19:06.640)

Yeah, the way they look at each other.

Andrew Huberman (3:19:08.400)

Yeah, they'll say.

Lex Fridman (3:19:09.240)

They still see the magic.

Andrew Huberman (3:19:10.200)

Yeah, and they'll say, we got lucky

Lex Fridman (3:19:11.920)

or it was, it's been hard or this and that.

Andrew Huberman (3:19:14.120)

I think external conditions being a little tougher

Lex Fridman (3:19:18.560)

is helpful for a couple.

Andrew Huberman (3:19:20.640)

Hardship.

Lex Fridman (3:19:21.480)

I do, I do, because I think that you rally, you know,

Lex Fridman (3:19:24.720)

and you bond with people, you know,

Lex Fridman (3:19:26.560)

obviously you want to survive those conditions,

Lex Fridman (3:19:29.200)

but yeah, I do.

Lex Fridman (3:19:31.640)

I think that it helps.

Andrew Huberman (3:19:32.480)

Bonnie and Clyde.

Lex Fridman (3:19:33.760)

So any.

Andrew Huberman (3:19:34.600)

Well, they were a little.

Lex Fridman (3:19:35.760)

Oh, a little too much.

Andrew Huberman (3:19:37.480)

Well, a little too much.

Lex Fridman (3:19:38.800)

They were sociopaths, but the,

Andrew Huberman (3:19:41.080)

well, when two sociopaths find one.

Lex Fridman (3:19:42.720)

Love can make you do crazy things.

Andrew Huberman (3:19:44.120)

Normally, it's interesting,

Lex Fridman (3:19:45.060)

normally sociopaths don't team up

Andrew Huberman (3:19:47.560)

because they manipulate each other.

Lex Fridman (3:19:50.080)

Sociopaths sadly are usually only interested

Andrew Huberman (3:19:53.500)

in manipulating the highly pliable or unsuspecting,

Lex Fridman (3:19:58.480)

but when romantic attraction is woven in,

Andrew Huberman (3:20:01.860)

then it gets really diabolical.

Lex Fridman (3:20:05.440)

Any advice on finding the love of your life, of my life?

Lex Fridman (3:20:09.440)

This is, why Lexus single response?

Lex Fridman (3:20:12.360)

Why, any advice?

Andrew Huberman (3:20:15.460)

Yeah, actually this comes from a friend of mine

Lex Fridman (3:20:17.320)

who's in a really excellent marriage

Andrew Huberman (3:20:19.680)

with great kids and family and high demand life.

Lex Fridman (3:20:24.440)

It's a decision.

Andrew Huberman (3:20:25.600)

Like at some point you just prioritize it as,

Lex Fridman (3:20:28.600)

okay, I'm going to make this happen one way or another.

Lex Fridman (3:20:33.340)

And you don't force the discovery of that person.

Lex Fridman (3:20:36.560)

But I mean, I've occasionally said,

Andrew Huberman (3:20:38.800)

hey, I think you should meet this person or that person.

Lex Fridman (3:20:41.020)

And well, it wasn't, maybe my judgment

Andrew Huberman (3:20:44.520)

might've been off, but the timing wasn't right or something.

Lex Fridman (3:20:47.160)

But I think that, yeah, it's a decision.

Lex Fridman (3:20:49.960)

And it also has to do with life structure.

Lex Fridman (3:20:52.160)

I mean, there were years.

Lex Fridman (3:20:53.000)

So when I was in graduate school,

Lex Fridman (3:20:54.880)

I didn't want a girlfriend.

Andrew Huberman (3:20:56.360)

I just wanted to be in lab.

Lex Fridman (3:20:57.600)

And I, sure I had romantic dating interests,

Lex Fridman (3:21:00.620)

but I wasn't going to meet them through a committed,

Lex Fridman (3:21:02.800)

live together situation.

Andrew Huberman (3:21:04.400)

It wasn't where I was at.

Lex Fridman (3:21:05.720)

And as a postdoc, things were a little different,

Andrew Huberman (3:21:07.360)

et cetera, et cetera.

Lex Fridman (3:21:08.200)

So, but at some point it's sort of like,

Lex Fridman (3:21:09.880)

what do I want my daily routine to look like?

Lex Fridman (3:21:12.440)

Because ultimately a relationship, however one structures,

Andrew Huberman (3:21:16.240)

is going to be part of your daily routine.

Lex Fridman (3:21:18.120)

So at the point where you're like,

Andrew Huberman (3:21:19.400)

I'd really love to wake up next to somebody

Lex Fridman (3:21:21.720)

and do blank and blank together.

Lex Fridman (3:21:23.960)

And then I'd love to work and then we meet for dinner.

Lex Fridman (3:21:27.620)

And then we take the dog for a walk or take kids out

Andrew Huberman (3:21:30.080)

or whatever it happens to be, take a trip.

Lex Fridman (3:21:32.960)

You have to be, one has to be in the mindset

Andrew Huberman (3:21:35.680)

of wanting to do couple like things.

Lex Fridman (3:21:38.760)

And a lot of people don't think about it that way.

Andrew Huberman (3:21:40.480)

They either fall into something

Lex Fridman (3:21:43.200)

or they don't see the benefits of coupling up.

Andrew Huberman (3:21:48.400)

I think that the pandemic tuned people's awareness

Lex Fridman (3:21:52.240)

to the fact that some things are indeed easier on your own,

Andrew Huberman (3:21:57.920)

depends on finances, et cetera, et cetera.

Lex Fridman (3:21:59.680)

But a lot of things are made better done with other people.

Andrew Huberman (3:22:05.680)

100%, but I also, so I was very deliberately,

Lex Fridman (3:22:10.560)

it's an interesting way to put it,

Lex Fridman (3:22:13.320)

but what do you want your day to look like?

Lex Fridman (3:22:15.400)

I think what do you want your day to look like?

Lex Fridman (3:22:17.240)

What do you want your life to be?

Lex Fridman (3:22:18.680)

I was very deliberately always, first of all,

Andrew Huberman (3:22:23.000)

happy to be alone, like a conscious thinking.

Lex Fridman (3:22:27.280)

I know a lot of friends were just unable to be alone.

Andrew Huberman (3:22:31.200)

I'm able to be alone, but I'm much happier

Lex Fridman (3:22:34.340)

with another person.

Andrew Huberman (3:22:35.760)

Like I'm able to share joy with other humans.

Lex Fridman (3:22:39.600)

I look forward to the day that our kids are rolling jiu jitsu

Lex Fridman (3:22:43.520)

and my kids are hanging out with your kids.

Lex Fridman (3:22:47.120)

And if that notion sounds even remotely interesting

Lex Fridman (3:22:53.440)

and fun, then it's sort of like you kind of backpedal

Lex Fridman (3:22:56.200)

from that and you go, well, it has to happen.

Lex Fridman (3:22:57.680)

How do you get to reverse engineer

Lex Fridman (3:23:00.760)

and think from first principles about love?

Andrew Huberman (3:23:03.920)

Andrew, thank you for being my friend.

Lex Fridman (3:23:06.960)

Thank you for being an amazing human being

Andrew Huberman (3:23:08.560)

who's so inspiring to so many people for constantly.

Lex Fridman (3:23:11.640)

I told this to Carl, like one of the things

Andrew Huberman (3:23:13.600)

that was really refreshing about you is that

Lex Fridman (3:23:21.800)

when I tell you an idea and I tell you a thought,

Andrew Huberman (3:23:23.960)

when I tell you something,

Lex Fridman (3:23:25.760)

you don't shut it down as a first step.

Andrew Huberman (3:23:29.120)

I was saying that that's common in the scientific community.

Lex Fridman (3:23:31.320)

That's common in people around you.

Andrew Huberman (3:23:32.960)

You're seeing what's the goal there.

Lex Fridman (3:23:34.720)

You get excited, get excited together.

Lex Fridman (3:23:37.000)

And that's how you can really have a great friendship

Lex Fridman (3:23:40.520)

and do great stuff together.

Lex Fridman (3:23:43.520)

So I'm deeply grateful for that.

Lex Fridman (3:23:45.320)

And just for connecting so many interesting people together.

Andrew Huberman (3:23:50.200)

You're doing an amazing job, man.

Lex Fridman (3:23:51.840)

And thank you for existing.

Andrew Huberman (3:23:53.720)

Thank you for being you.

Lex Fridman (3:23:54.920)

Thank you for talking today.

Lex Fridman (3:23:56.280)

And next time I'll see you in the sauna and ice bath.

Lex Fridman (3:23:59.960)

Well, I wanna say several things.

Andrew Huberman (3:24:01.200)

First of all, thank you for having me on again.

Lex Fridman (3:24:03.040)

It's an honor and a pleasure.

Lex Fridman (3:24:04.520)

And I don't say that formally, I really truly mean it.

Lex Fridman (3:24:07.640)

I only, the Huberman Lab Podcast, as I always say,

Andrew Huberman (3:24:10.120)

only exists because you gave me the suggestion

Lex Fridman (3:24:12.640)

and I'm so grateful that you did.

Lex Fridman (3:24:14.920)

So thank you.

Lex Fridman (3:24:15.960)

And for doing what you do, like you are brave

Lex Fridman (3:24:19.440)

and you were first man in

Lex Fridman (3:24:20.760)

and you're just continuing to do it.

Andrew Huberman (3:24:22.680)

As my postdoc advisor used to say,

Lex Fridman (3:24:24.720)

whatever you're doing, just keep going.

Lex Fridman (3:24:27.480)

And then in terms of our friendship,

Lex Fridman (3:24:28.880)

I mean, I think you know, and if you don't,

Andrew Huberman (3:24:32.960)

I'm gonna just keep telling you anyway,

Lex Fridman (3:24:34.280)

by texting in person, you're an amazing friend.

Andrew Huberman (3:24:37.240)

There's deep trust, there's immense respect

Lex Fridman (3:24:40.560)

and I love you, brother.

Andrew Huberman (3:24:42.920)

I love you too, man.

Lex Fridman (3:24:44.480)

We did it.

Andrew Huberman (3:24:46.040)

Thanks for listening to this conversation

Lex Fridman (3:24:47.440)

with Andrew Huberman.

Andrew Huberman (3:24:48.720)

To support this podcast,

Lex Fridman (3:24:50.000)

please check out our sponsors in the description.

Lex Fridman (3:24:52.560)

And now let me leave you with some words

Lex Fridman (3:24:54.400)

from Ralph Waldo Emerson.

Andrew Huberman (3:24:57.000)

It is one of the blessings of old friends.

Lex Fridman (3:24:59.600)

You can afford to be stupid with them.

Andrew Huberman (3:25:02.440)

I look forward to doing just that

Lex Fridman (3:25:04.840)

in the many years to come

Andrew Huberman (3:25:06.640)

of friendship and fun conversations with Andrew.

Lex Fridman (3:25:09.680)

Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

Lex Fridman (40:01.320)

And what does that person become?

Lex Fridman (40:03.280)

Who are you?

Andrew Huberman (40:04.520)

I have to plug myself into those moments in my life

Lex Fridman (40:07.200)

in the past where I've been angry at something

Lex Fridman (40:11.000)

and where I've been cruel because I was angry.

Lex Fridman (40:14.560)

In little ways, but then you magnify them at scale

Lex Fridman (40:17.560)

and I have to go there and that's very human.

Lex Fridman (40:21.000)

And then I have to look at another person

Andrew Huberman (40:23.000)

from across the table for me and understand,

Lex Fridman (40:25.200)

well, you're there too.

Lex Fridman (40:26.800)

And then you had more opportunity to do truly cruel things.

Lex Fridman (40:31.320)

And then where, like I have to plug myself

Andrew Huberman (40:36.440)

into places where I've been, I can imagine I can go,

Lex Fridman (40:39.600)

where I was cruel to others and was unaware of it.

Lex Fridman (40:43.240)

So I was in a mind space where I was thinking

Lex Fridman (40:45.720)

that I'm doing good and I was doing not good.

Andrew Huberman (40:48.200)

Again, I've never gotten the opportunity

Lex Fridman (40:50.280)

to do any of those things at large scale,

Lex Fridman (40:52.480)

but all of us have done it at a small scale.

Lex Fridman (40:54.840)

And I plug myself into that and then we're here,

Andrew Huberman (40:58.760)

we're to, if it's somebody who's in prison,

Lex Fridman (41:01.480)

if it's somebody who's a dictator,

Andrew Huberman (41:03.400)

we're in that space where evil is,

Lex Fridman (41:07.040)

all of us have the capacity to do that evil

Lex Fridman (41:09.560)

and I have to imagine myself being able to do that evil.

Lex Fridman (41:13.480)

And then we're here together in that dark, dark place.

Lex Fridman (41:17.920)

And then if it's just right,

Lex Fridman (41:20.000)

something real can actually come,

Andrew Huberman (41:21.800)

something from that person's childhood,

Lex Fridman (41:23.960)

maybe awakening to a realization

Andrew Huberman (41:27.640)

that I thought it was a good person and I'm not.

Lex Fridman (41:30.800)

And that only happens when you truly empathize.

Andrew Huberman (41:34.880)

Those moments of discovery are beautiful,

Lex Fridman (41:36.960)

but they also happen in science.

Andrew Huberman (41:38.720)

When you just have a conversation and you realize,

Lex Fridman (41:42.360)

I feel like talking to Stephen Wolfram,

Andrew Huberman (41:44.000)

I feel like we constantly realize

Lex Fridman (41:46.080)

beautiful things together.

Andrew Huberman (41:48.040)

On this element of evil and sociopathy,

Lex Fridman (41:52.240)

that Jung had this notion that we have all things inside us

Lex Fridman (41:57.760)

and that we all have the capacity to be good or evil,

Lex Fridman (42:00.800)

et cetera, but I have the good fortune

Andrew Huberman (42:05.160)

of working with somebody who has deep understanding

Lex Fridman (42:08.040)

of psychiatry, but also psychoanalysis

Lex Fridman (42:10.200)

and Jungian theory.

Lex Fridman (42:11.720)

And he said to me recently, he said,

Andrew Huberman (42:15.040)

whether or not all people have all things inside them

Lex Fridman (42:17.960)

is still debated in the psychology community

Lex Fridman (42:20.400)

and in the neuroscience community.

Lex Fridman (42:22.840)

And as a matter of philosophy,

Lex Fridman (42:24.440)

but there are certain people, not many,

Lex Fridman (42:28.240)

but there are certain people

Andrew Huberman (42:29.960)

for whom they've actually lived out many versions

Lex Fridman (42:33.280)

of their possible selves in the first person.

Lex Fridman (42:37.040)

And so those are unique individuals.

Lex Fridman (42:38.760)

Then even if they tapped into these things,

Andrew Huberman (42:41.280)

as you mentioned, at a more minor level,

Lex Fridman (42:44.440)

as opposed to impacting people negatively at scale.

Lex Fridman (42:49.000)

So being able to access those different parts of oneself

Lex Fridman (42:51.440)

is key and you've been willing to step into that.

Andrew Huberman (42:54.120)

My podcast is not one in which we get down to those matters.

Lex Fridman (42:57.480)

Yet, yet.

Andrew Huberman (42:59.120)

You never know, we might do an episode

Lex Fridman (43:00.560)

on narcissism and sociopathy.

Andrew Huberman (43:02.840)

The other thing that I took away from a conversation

Lex Fridman (43:04.960)

with a friend, he was a lot of years in special operations

Andrew Huberman (43:08.480)

in the intelligence community.

Lex Fridman (43:09.520)

He said, if you look at somebody's past,

Andrew Huberman (43:13.280)

at some point you will come to understand

Lex Fridman (43:16.280)

some pretty good reasons as to why they became who they are,

Lex Fridman (43:19.520)

but you have to draw the, his words,

Lex Fridman (43:21.720)

the red line someplace.

Lex Fridman (43:23.320)

And what he was referring to was the fact

Lex Fridman (43:25.040)

that certain people, at least in the eyes

Andrew Huberman (43:26.920)

of certain communities deserve to be eliminated

Lex Fridman (43:30.240)

as a consequence of their actions, right?

Andrew Huberman (43:33.200)

Regardless of what drove them to those actions.

Lex Fridman (43:35.160)

So it gets right down to the line

Andrew Huberman (43:36.800)

between nature, nurture, neuroscience,

Lex Fridman (43:40.800)

and the law and justice.

Andrew Huberman (43:43.880)

Complicated, complicated themes.

Lex Fridman (43:45.720)

I can think of a number of people

Andrew Huberman (43:47.040)

that I would love to hear you interview.

Lex Fridman (43:49.240)

And here I'm not revealing the reasons why,

Lex Fridman (43:51.920)

but except for the fact that I think

Lex Fridman (43:53.520)

you would be uniquely suited to bring out

Andrew Huberman (43:56.040)

the important components of the conversation

Lex Fridman (43:58.480)

that other people have not been able to do,

Andrew Huberman (44:02.600)

which for instance, Liz Holmes,

Lex Fridman (44:04.840)

this is one of the most mysterious

Lex Fridman (44:08.520)

and yet disliked people on the planet.

Lex Fridman (44:13.640)

She's sort of synonymous with deception.

Andrew Huberman (44:17.280)

I don't know if there've been any real interviews

Lex Fridman (44:20.200)

of her since the whole thing.

Andrew Huberman (44:22.920)

I haven't followed that case.

Lex Fridman (44:23.920)

I listened to the book and I followed it a little bit

Lex Fridman (44:27.240)

because it was happening in my hometown, right?

Lex Fridman (44:29.400)

Theranos was right up the road.

Andrew Huberman (44:31.000)

The building's still there.

Lex Fridman (44:32.280)

It's interesting.

Andrew Huberman (44:33.120)

It's some of the most premier real estate

Lex Fridman (44:34.600)

in Silicon Valley, but nobody wants it.

Andrew Huberman (44:36.920)

It's sort of like, it's very hard to sell a home

Lex Fridman (44:38.480)

where somebody committed suicide or committed a murder,

Andrew Huberman (44:41.080)

even if it's a beautiful home.

Lex Fridman (44:42.560)

It sort of feel like the Theranos building is that building.

Lex Fridman (44:46.040)

So that would be a really interesting interview.

Lex Fridman (44:48.520)

I would love to hear that interview.

Andrew Huberman (44:50.560)

One of the most interesting dark human beings in science.

Lex Fridman (44:55.760)

Yeah, and then there'll even be people that say,

Lex Fridman (44:58.600)

was it even science, right?

Lex Fridman (44:59.720)

It might've all been deception.

Andrew Huberman (45:01.120)

It might've been one part deception,

Lex Fridman (45:02.360)

one part goal setting mixed in with,

Andrew Huberman (45:05.520)

clearly that there were so many factors

Lex Fridman (45:08.580)

impacting what happened.

Andrew Huberman (45:10.760)

I think the big difference between Theranos and that story

Lex Fridman (45:15.000)

and some of the other stories about Silicon Valley

Andrew Huberman (45:17.520)

where people promised a lot more than they could deliver

Lex Fridman (45:19.900)

is they were promising things that were directly related

Andrew Huberman (45:22.720)

to health and healthcare.

Lex Fridman (45:23.720)

People were taking blood tests with the understanding

Andrew Huberman (45:26.960)

that the data they were getting was important,

Lex Fridman (45:29.280)

information about sexually transmitted diseases

Lex Fridman (45:31.200)

and other diseases and making real world decisions

Lex Fridman (45:33.400)

on the basis of that.

Andrew Huberman (45:34.480)

Whereas if you remember when the iPhone first came out

Lex Fridman (45:37.240)

and Steve Jobs was still alive

Lex Fridman (45:38.760)

and the phones were dropping calls

Lex Fridman (45:40.600)

if you held it in a particular way.

Lex Fridman (45:41.940)

And his response was a little flip.

Lex Fridman (45:43.480)

He said, hey folks, it's a phone

Andrew Huberman (45:45.920)

as if like don't get so worked up.

Lex Fridman (45:47.720)

But people held them understandably to a very high standard.

Andrew Huberman (45:51.040)

She sort of, it seemed, and I don't know,

Lex Fridman (45:54.080)

cause I certainly wasn't there,

Andrew Huberman (45:55.360)

seemed like she sort of adopted this idea

Lex Fridman (45:57.820)

that you could get it wrong a bunch of times

Andrew Huberman (45:59.360)

before you get it right.

Lex Fridman (46:00.960)

Except if the allegations are true.

Lex Fridman (46:02.720)

And I think she was found guilty, I believe,

Lex Fridman (46:05.760)

on a number of counts.

Andrew Huberman (46:07.120)

That a number of the things that they were doing

Lex Fridman (46:09.080)

were impacting real world decision making.

Lex Fridman (46:11.880)

So Steve's point about the phone, it's just a phone.

Lex Fridman (46:14.560)

Well, it depends on the call.

Lex Fridman (46:15.400)

If you're calling 911, then it's not just a phone, right?

Lex Fridman (46:19.360)

But in the case of blood tests and disease,

Andrew Huberman (46:22.160)

that's serious.

Lex Fridman (46:23.000)

I think that the Theranos case was super interesting to me

Andrew Huberman (46:24.960)

because of the number of people from major universities

Lex Fridman (46:27.600)

and from government that both trusted her

Lex Fridman (46:31.400)

and the number of people who did not trust her

Lex Fridman (46:34.360)

and yet either didn't speak up or no one listened to them.

Andrew Huberman (46:37.320)

It was only in the forensic version of it

Lex Fridman (46:39.700)

that everyone said, oh yeah, I knew that she was lying,

Andrew Huberman (46:42.440)

et cetera, et cetera.

Lex Fridman (46:43.280)

They were lying to multiple people involved

Andrew Huberman (46:45.320)

in those lies apparently.

Lex Fridman (46:46.680)

But I have a deep interest in the neuroscience

Andrew Huberman (46:49.120)

of narcissism, sociopathy,

Lex Fridman (46:51.520)

and some of the darker aspects of the mind.

Lex Fridman (46:54.000)

So yeah, maybe someday.

Lex Fridman (46:55.480)

Maybe we'll do a podcast together.

Andrew Huberman (46:57.080)

I mean, like in the kind of early 90s version of talk shows

Lex Fridman (47:00.400)

where we darken the lights and we do it together,

Andrew Huberman (47:02.680)

you can use your voice

Lex Fridman (47:03.520)

because your voice is much more sinister sounding than mine.

Andrew Huberman (47:06.840)

Good cop, bad cop.

Lex Fridman (47:08.800)

Well, it'd be interesting from a scientific perspective

Andrew Huberman (47:11.440)

of somebody who is a sociopath or a psychopath,

Lex Fridman (47:16.780)

how to reveal something real about them.

Andrew Huberman (47:20.200)

I think that requires not just,

Lex Fridman (47:24.480)

well, I don't know what that requires.

Andrew Huberman (47:26.520)

That requires the same skill

Lex Fridman (47:27.920)

that it takes to be a good therapist.

Andrew Huberman (47:31.620)

Right, and some therapists won't work with sociopaths

Lex Fridman (47:35.140)

because they don't feel any progress can be made.

Andrew Huberman (47:38.420)

Some therapists will work with sociopaths

Lex Fridman (47:40.400)

because for the wealthy ones,

Andrew Huberman (47:41.960)

they often, they want their money.

Lex Fridman (47:44.900)

I think most therapists are good and benevolent,

Lex Fridman (47:47.360)

but there's some that will do it

Lex Fridman (47:48.320)

just the same way lawyers will work with criminals

Lex Fridman (47:50.480)

knowing they're criminals, right?

Lex Fridman (47:53.440)

Oftentimes because they're criminals.

Andrew Huberman (47:55.320)

There are certain domains of psychiatry

Lex Fridman (47:57.000)

that are more tractable than others, right?

Andrew Huberman (47:59.760)

Borderlines are interesting.

Lex Fridman (48:00.720)

I should just mention

Andrew Huberman (48:01.560)

because they have this phenomenon of splitting.

Lex Fridman (48:03.860)

So in the world of psychology,

Andrew Huberman (48:05.740)

the idea is that being neurotic is actually the goal.

Lex Fridman (48:09.960)

The idea that you could be, you know,

Andrew Huberman (48:12.360)

feel something and then work a lot to overcome it

Lex Fridman (48:15.100)

or have some sort of defense mechanism in place,

Lex Fridman (48:18.760)

but that's not destructive.

Lex Fridman (48:20.340)

That's actually a pretty healthy state to be in.

Andrew Huberman (48:22.560)

It's provided it's not destructive.

Lex Fridman (48:25.380)

Psychotic is truly delusional thinking about reality.

Lex Fridman (48:29.800)

And the idea is that borderlines split,

Lex Fridman (48:33.120)

intermittently split between psychotic and neurotic.

Andrew Huberman (48:37.340)

That's why it was called,

Lex Fridman (48:38.180)

there's beautiful work by Melanie Klein that describes this,

Andrew Huberman (48:41.000)

which I'm just now kind of delving into.

Lex Fridman (48:42.980)

But, you know, so the borderline is the person who is like,

Andrew Huberman (48:46.020)

I love you, I love you, I love you,

Lex Fridman (48:47.520)

and then truly feels as if they hate you

Lex Fridman (48:49.720)

and you become the bad object.

Lex Fridman (48:51.320)

So borderlines are challenging for psychologists

Lex Fridman (48:54.580)

because of the splitting, right?

Lex Fridman (48:57.500)

Schizophrenics are challenging

Andrew Huberman (48:58.780)

because of the detachment from reality.

Lex Fridman (49:02.940)

And narcissists are challenging

Andrew Huberman (49:05.120)

because they're often so charming

Lex Fridman (49:07.620)

that even the therapists are charmed.

Andrew Huberman (49:10.060)

I believe you mentioned Karl Deisseroth.

Lex Fridman (49:12.280)

We'll talk about him.

Andrew Huberman (49:13.120)

He was definitely not a narcissist.

Lex Fridman (49:14.460)

He's one of the more humble people, but he is brilliant.

Andrew Huberman (49:16.420)

Thanks again to you.

Lex Fridman (49:17.900)

You've connected us.

Andrew Huberman (49:19.420)

I had the pleasure of having a conversation with him.

Lex Fridman (49:22.820)

You had a conversation with him.

Andrew Huberman (49:23.900)

I really enjoyed it on the podcast.

Lex Fridman (49:25.660)

You guys come from the same science, from the same place,

Andrew Huberman (49:29.740)

maybe different journeys, fascinating.

Lex Fridman (49:31.500)

And levels.

Andrew Huberman (49:32.340)

We were postdocs together.

Lex Fridman (49:33.940)

Karl is truly the Michael Jordan, the Wayne Gretzky,

Andrew Huberman (49:37.860)

five children, amazing marriage to it.

Lex Fridman (49:40.420)

Also an amazing scientist.

Andrew Huberman (49:41.940)

His wife, Michelle Monge,

Lex Fridman (49:42.940)

is in our neurology department at Stanford.

Andrew Huberman (49:44.940)

An incredible thinker, writer, very kind person, humble.

Lex Fridman (49:51.500)

Speaking of getting into state,

Andrew Huberman (49:52.740)

sorry, Karl, I'm gonna out you on this,

Lex Fridman (49:54.300)

but Karl, despite being at the highest levels

Andrew Huberman (49:58.340)

of science and engineering and a practicing psychiatrist,

Lex Fridman (50:02.300)

his office is literally a coat closet

Andrew Huberman (50:06.200)

with a small table lamp.

Lex Fridman (50:07.900)

When you meet with Karl, if you manage to meet with him,

Andrew Huberman (50:10.220)

because he's very hard to get to,

Lex Fridman (50:12.300)

you walk in, you sit down

Andrew Huberman (50:13.700)

as if you're going through some interrogation

Lex Fridman (50:15.700)

and some spy novel.

Lex Fridman (50:18.100)

And he'll ask you, what are you most excited about lately?

Lex Fridman (50:22.100)

And I've got 11 minutes or something.

Lex Fridman (50:23.980)

And that's a meeting with Karl, because he's that busy.

Lex Fridman (50:27.040)

But he doesn't have the office with the pictures of the kids

Lex Fridman (50:29.300)

and the thing and all that.

Lex Fridman (50:30.800)

All that is kept elsewhere.

Lex Fridman (50:32.540)

So in order to get, I asked him

Lex Fridman (50:34.420)

why he work in this office, right?

Andrew Huberman (50:36.020)

You work on light and channels of light,

Lex Fridman (50:38.060)

things related to light of all things.

Andrew Huberman (50:39.820)

Here you are in this dark room.

Lex Fridman (50:40.740)

And he said, well, this is what gets me

Andrew Huberman (50:41.940)

into the state of mind to be able to do what I want to do.

Lex Fridman (50:44.260)

Very Rick Rubin ish, not at all the same person,

Lex Fridman (50:48.860)

but very similar in that he's figured out

Lex Fridman (50:50.600)

the physical space he needs in order to get

Andrew Huberman (50:52.380)

into the optimal state to do the work he needs to do

Lex Fridman (50:54.540)

in this lifetime.

Lex Fridman (50:55.460)

And it's very unusual, right?

Lex Fridman (50:57.460)

If I don't have a window, I kind of freak out.

Andrew Huberman (50:59.340)

I can do it here for a while.

Lex Fridman (51:00.540)

We're in this black cube here, floating in space, of course.

Lex Fridman (51:05.380)

But I find that amazing that these people

Lex Fridman (51:08.900)

that are operating in this super high level

Andrew Huberman (51:10.820)

are willing to actually deprive themselves

Lex Fridman (51:12.580)

of a lot of conditions.

Andrew Huberman (51:14.040)

They're not sitting there with the secretary coming in

Lex Fridman (51:16.580)

offering them espresso every five minutes and things that,

Andrew Huberman (51:19.100)

no, no, no, that's New York Neuroscience.

Lex Fridman (51:21.940)

The New York Neuroscience Mafia is kind of famous

Andrew Huberman (51:23.980)

for having all the tickets to the opera and this and that.

Lex Fridman (51:28.160)

And they enjoy lifestyle a lot.

Andrew Huberman (51:30.180)

The New York Neuroscience Mafia.

Lex Fridman (51:31.500)

Oh, there is one, there definitely is one.

Andrew Huberman (51:32.980)

They know who they are.

Lex Fridman (51:34.380)

They know who they are.

Andrew Huberman (51:35.220)

People don't know, Andrew Huberman is from the West Coast

Lex Fridman (51:38.940)

and now he's just starting wars with the Neuroscience Mafia.

Andrew Huberman (51:41.620)

Well, they do amazing science.

Lex Fridman (51:42.660)

They think, they love their lifestyle and that's wonderful,

Lex Fridman (51:45.520)

but the culture is very different.

Lex Fridman (51:48.380)

Carl and I think Silicon Valley in general

Andrew Huberman (51:50.560)

kind of prides itself on this kind of monk like assesism,

Lex Fridman (51:55.300)

right?

Lex Fridman (51:56.140)

But at the individual scale,

Lex Fridman (51:57.820)

be deliberate about controlling the environment.

Andrew Huberman (51:59.700)

I think about that with the conversations too.

Lex Fridman (52:01.860)

I haven't been deliberate about that either

Andrew Huberman (52:04.160)

in terms of controlling the space you're in.

Lex Fridman (52:07.460)

Visually, yes, black curtains, all those kinds of things.

Andrew Huberman (52:10.680)

There is nothing like the Lex Friedman podcast studio.

Lex Fridman (52:14.820)

First of all, when you do them remotely,

Andrew Huberman (52:17.180)

I always feel like I'm in a witness relocation program.

Lex Fridman (52:20.620)

You only get the coordinates at the last moment

Lex Fridman (52:23.140)

and you always get the sense that there are people

Lex Fridman (52:26.260)

behind the walls that are recording things.

Andrew Huberman (52:30.140)

Well, there's something about creating a feeling.

Lex Fridman (52:32.620)

I have a sense that there's a robot over there.

Andrew Huberman (52:34.460)

There's several throughout this place.

Lex Fridman (52:36.580)

And I think part of that,

Andrew Huberman (52:42.860)

part of creating a feeling would be having the robots

Lex Fridman (52:46.220)

constantly moving around and having a mind of their own

Andrew Huberman (52:49.960)

because that would most closely put guests

Lex Fridman (52:54.660)

and other humans that I interact with into a place

Andrew Huberman (52:58.080)

that's closest to my mind

Lex Fridman (53:01.460)

because it's such an engineering mind

Lex Fridman (53:03.940)

and one where when things come to life,

Lex Fridman (53:06.500)

it's a beautiful place to be.

Lex Fridman (53:08.460)

And whatever that is, that could be like art,

Lex Fridman (53:10.700)

but to me, robots are art.

Lex Fridman (53:12.620)

And so I'm thinking about that both for me and for guests.

Lex Fridman (53:17.300)

And I'm also thinking about the difficult guests

Andrew Huberman (53:19.900)

just to return to, you said, Elizabeth Holmes.

Lex Fridman (53:22.540)

One person, maybe a couple of things I want to say.

Andrew Huberman (53:26.460)

One person I think I would like to talk to is

Lex Fridman (53:32.800)

Ghislaine Maxwell.

Andrew Huberman (53:34.300)

I always get afraid right before you reveal

Lex Fridman (53:36.380)

these kinds of things.

Lex Fridman (53:37.220)

And now I know why I get afraid.

Lex Fridman (53:39.020)

Yeah, I mean, again, assuming that she did the things

Lex Fridman (53:42.220)

that people claim she did, they're despicable, right?

Lex Fridman (53:45.900)

I mean, these were underage children, right?

Andrew Huberman (53:48.020)

There's just no version of the story

Lex Fridman (53:50.500)

where she did the things she was accused of doing

Lex Fridman (53:54.580)

and is still a quote unquote good person.

Lex Fridman (53:56.600)

There's just, in my mind, right?

Lex Fridman (53:59.260)

And yet I think there is tremendous interest

Lex Fridman (54:01.780)

in understanding like what led her to do all that.

Lex Fridman (54:05.980)

So at least for some people.

Lex Fridman (54:07.300)

Let me say a couple of things.

Lex Fridman (54:08.180)

So one is at a high level, let me say that she believes

Lex Fridman (54:14.860)

or her current story is that she's the victim.

Lex Fridman (54:18.900)

Of who?

Lex Fridman (54:20.060)

Jeffrey Epstein.

Andrew Huberman (54:21.020)

Oh my.

Lex Fridman (54:23.160)

I think I'll just leave that there as is.

Lex Fridman (54:26.780)

So these are ideas that you're facing.

Lex Fridman (54:31.380)

The nature of truth and the nature of the human mind

Andrew Huberman (54:34.700)

is what it is and this is, imagine folks,

Lex Fridman (54:38.940)

if you went into a room with a person that says that,

Lex Fridman (54:43.060)

what do you do next?

Lex Fridman (54:45.200)

Let me also say that I never or rarely,

Andrew Huberman (54:51.100)

let me say not say never, I rarely mention names

Lex Fridman (54:54.500)

that I'm interested in talking to

Andrew Huberman (54:57.240)

without having made significant progress

Lex Fridman (55:00.880)

in already securing that interview.

Lex Fridman (55:03.180)

So people sometimes ask me about Vladimir Zelensky

Lex Fridman (55:07.640)

and Vladimir Putin.

Andrew Huberman (55:09.700)

I do not bring them up lightly in terms of their being

Lex Fridman (55:15.800)

a path to an actual conversation.

Andrew Huberman (55:17.220)

That said, something I regret but I'm not sure

Lex Fridman (55:20.140)

I know what to do with it.

Lex Fridman (55:23.740)

But in the case of all the people I just mentioned,

Lex Fridman (55:27.380)

I haven't been preparing for those conversations.

Andrew Huberman (55:30.540)

I only start really preparing seriously

Lex Fridman (55:35.100)

when it's confirmed because it's such a heavy burden.

Lex Fridman (55:40.340)

And one of the things I regret in having mentioned

Lex Fridman (55:44.300)

a conversation with Vladimir Putin

Andrew Huberman (55:47.260)

before the war in Ukraine broke out in the past few years

Lex Fridman (55:51.220)

is that I would mention it very loosely, very casually.

Lex Fridman (55:55.780)

And without having really deeply put myself into a place

Lex Fridman (56:01.380)

that I'm ready to talk to him.

Lex Fridman (56:02.940)

And that's a tricky thing because then the internet,

Lex Fridman (56:08.500)

the audience in general, and just me,

Andrew Huberman (56:11.640)

when I listen back to my dumb self,

Lex Fridman (56:14.380)

think, well, why are you speaking so lightly

Lex Fridman (56:16.280)

about these topics?

Lex Fridman (56:17.740)

Well, I know you've had a longstanding interest

Andrew Huberman (56:19.540)

in talking to him.

Lex Fridman (56:21.620)

I think now, well, I don't understand

Lex Fridman (56:27.120)

how I would sit down and have a conversation

Lex Fridman (56:31.200)

with somebody like that,

Lex Fridman (56:32.140)

but that's not in the range of my skill sets.

Lex Fridman (56:36.380)

Or like maybe not in the range of things

Andrew Huberman (56:39.940)

that you're drawn to somehow.

Lex Fridman (56:41.980)

Not so much.

Andrew Huberman (56:42.820)

I mean, I would watch that episode with great interest.

Lex Fridman (56:47.380)

Well, you did an episode recently with this guy

Lex Fridman (56:49.700)

who was a former cyber criminal turned state side, right?

Lex Fridman (56:53.940)

I think he works for the government now.

Lex Fridman (56:55.220)

And there was a segment in there.

Lex Fridman (56:57.360)

Remind me his name?

Andrew Huberman (56:58.200)

Brett Johnson.

Lex Fridman (56:59.040)

Brett Johnson.

Andrew Huberman (56:59.860)

There was a segment in there where he talked about

Lex Fridman (57:02.260)

stealing a lifetime's worth of collected coins

Andrew Huberman (57:06.140)

from some elderly woman.

Lex Fridman (57:08.780)

And this was everything she had.

Lex Fridman (57:10.220)

And then he openly admitted that he felt no remorse,

Lex Fridman (57:15.660)

which is the way he described is purely sociopathic.

Lex Fridman (57:18.540)

And then of course we learned that he grew up in a family

Lex Fridman (57:20.660)

where criminal behavior was very common.

Andrew Huberman (57:23.140)

It was kind of embedded into his notions

Lex Fridman (57:25.820)

of what typical behaviors were.

Lex Fridman (57:27.700)

And I found myself somewhat conflicted,

Lex Fridman (57:30.580)

but also hung up on this idea that,

Andrew Huberman (57:33.540)

I mean, he had behaved as a sociopath

Lex Fridman (57:38.420)

or in a sociopathic way.

Lex Fridman (57:39.960)

And it created an internal conflict

Lex Fridman (57:42.580)

because he's quite charming guest

Lex Fridman (57:44.020)

and his stories are terrific.

Lex Fridman (57:45.860)

Especially I really enjoyed his discussions

Andrew Huberman (57:49.180)

about how he would go out and do all these things

Lex Fridman (57:52.740)

out of a desire to please his girlfriend.

Lex Fridman (57:56.460)

So he was in service to other people,

Lex Fridman (57:58.280)

despite being sociopathic,

Andrew Huberman (57:59.420)

he could say he was in service to them as a way to extract.

Lex Fridman (58:01.780)

Gets very complicated.

Andrew Huberman (58:03.260)

I think is the reason I went into science

Lex Fridman (58:05.140)

is that at some level,

Andrew Huberman (58:07.340)

it's more about facts than it is opinions and judgments.

Lex Fridman (58:10.500)

And I don't know that I have the ability

Andrew Huberman (58:12.100)

to suspend judgment away from the kind of

Lex Fridman (58:16.540)

top level contours of my initial reaction to like,

Andrew Huberman (58:20.300)

if it's true, like the Ghislaine Maxwell's

Lex Fridman (58:22.420)

and the Liz Holmes and the other sociopaths

Andrew Huberman (58:25.340)

is one of just kind of revulsion and repulsion.

Lex Fridman (58:28.220)

But that could also reflect the fact

Andrew Huberman (58:29.740)

that I'm not as neurologically sophisticated

Lex Fridman (58:33.660)

as somebody that can spin all the plates of empathy,

Andrew Huberman (58:38.660)

forgiveness, but also holding people accountable

Lex Fridman (58:44.140)

at the same time.

Andrew Huberman (58:44.980)

That's work.

Lex Fridman (58:45.820)

That takes, if you think about it,

Andrew Huberman (58:46.820)

that's three four brain circuits having to work in parallel.

Lex Fridman (58:50.700)

That's the difference between chess or a game of go

Lex Fridman (58:52.700)

and a game of checkers.

Lex Fridman (58:53.540)

I guess I'm playing checkers and you're playing chess.

Andrew Huberman (58:56.020)

No, so one is actually holding in your mind

Lex Fridman (58:58.500)

and two is the raw skill of conversation.

Andrew Huberman (59:01.160)

You're very, just having listened to your interviews,

Lex Fridman (59:04.020)

you're very good at conversation,

Lex Fridman (59:05.620)

but the skill of conversation is really tricky.

Lex Fridman (59:08.940)

I'm not being self deprecating.

Andrew Huberman (59:10.300)

I'm being just objective.

Lex Fridman (59:12.060)

I'm not good at conversation.

Andrew Huberman (59:15.540)

I'm working very hard, getting better at it.

Lex Fridman (59:18.780)

I'm speaking not about just podcasting.

Andrew Huberman (59:22.660)

I'm speaking just normal life.

Lex Fridman (59:25.380)

I have anxiety from social interaction.

Andrew Huberman (59:30.260)

I...

Lex Fridman (59:31.100)

Do you really?

Andrew Huberman (59:31.940)

A huge amount, yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman (59:33.060)

So this is interesting because I never detect that in you.

Andrew Huberman (59:37.260)

Ever.

Lex Fridman (59:38.100)

And I think there are people that we both know

Andrew Huberman (59:40.660)

that have said to me that they too feel anxious

Lex Fridman (59:45.180)

and yet your voice is steady.

Andrew Huberman (59:49.500)

I don't see any perspiration.

Lex Fridman (59:51.460)

Oh yeah.

Andrew Huberman (59:52.740)

You appear incredibly calm.

Lex Fridman (59:54.060)

I'm scared shitless.

Andrew Huberman (59:55.380)

I was scared shitless with Rick Rubin.

Lex Fridman (59:57.500)

Rick Rubin is, when you first meet him,