Eric Weinstein: On the Nature of Good and Evil, Genius and Madness
音乐与艺术政治与社会技术与编程心理与人性生物与进化
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AI 智能总结
埃里克·韦恩斯坦谈善恶本质、天才与疯狂
这是 Lex Fridman 与数学家、经济学家 Eric Weinstein 的第三次对话。韦恩斯坦以他标志性的跨学科思维，探讨了善恶的本质、天才与疯狂的边界、当代学术界的失败，以及他的「几何统一」物理理论。
善恶天才学术界批判几何统一理论创新物理学
Eric Weinstein 是数学家、经济学家，曾任 Thiel Capital 董事总经理，主持「The Portal」播客，以跨学科思维和对主流学术界的批判而闻名，提出了「几何统一」物理理论。
📌 核心观点
- 善恶的本质：韦恩斯坦认为善恶不是简单的道德范畴，而是复杂的系统属性。真正的恶往往以善的面目出现，而真正的善有时需要做出看似残忍的选择。他对道德的思考深受博弈论和进化生物学影响。
- 天才与疯狂的边界：韦恩斯坦探讨了为什么最具创造力的思想家往往游走在疯狂的边缘，他认为这是因为真正的创新需要打破现有的认知框架，而这种能力与某些精神疾病的特征高度重叠。
- 学术界的失败：韦恩斯坦对当代学术界持强烈批评态度，他认为同行评审制度、发表压力和职业激励结构共同创造了一个奖励平庸、惩罚真正创新的系统。
- 几何统一理论：韦恩斯坦提出了一个雄心勃勃的物理统一理论，试图用几何语言统一广义相对论和量子场论。他认为这个理论被主流物理学界忽视，是学术界失败的典型案例。
- 「被压制的天才」问题：韦恩斯坦认为现代社会系统性地压制了真正的天才，因为真正的创新往往威胁到现有的权力结构和知识体系。他将这称为「DISC」（被压制的创新）问题。
✨ 金句摘录
韦恩斯坦：真正的恶往往以善的面目出现——这是我们时代最危险的认知盲点。
韦恩斯坦：学术界创造了一个奖励平庸、惩罚真正创新的系统——这是文明的悲剧。
韦恩斯坦：天才与疯狂的边界比我们想象的要模糊——真正的创新需要打破现有的认知框架。
📋 章节目录
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🔑 关键词
donjoegotgoingdoingdoesntalkingsomebodypersonsaidtryingtalkconversationpodcastmoneyeverybodywrongdidnsuresaying
💬 精彩语录
"However, I, I think that this problem of instantaneous communication across the planet and you subtract"
然而，我，我认为这个全球即时通讯的问题，你减去
— Eric Weinstein （2:03:15.580）
🎙️ 完整对话（3463 条）
Lex Fridman (00:00.000)
The following is a conversation with Eric Weinstein,
以下是与埃里克·韦恩斯坦的对话，
Lex Fridman (00:02.960)
the third time we've spoken on this podcast.
这是我们第三次在这个播客上发言了。
Lex Fridman (00:05.640)
He is the wise turtle master Oogway to my Kung Fu Panda,
他对我的功夫熊猫来说就是聪明的乌龟大师乌龟，
Lex Fridman (00:10.320)
one of my favorite people to talk to in this world.
在这个世界上我最喜欢与之交谈的人之一。
Lex Fridman (00:13.160)
A complicated and fascinating mind
复杂而迷人的头脑
Eric Weinstein (00:15.480)
that I'm grateful to have the chance to accompany
我很感激有机会陪伴
Lex Fridman (00:17.920)
in exploring this world through conversation
通过对话探索这个世界
Eric Weinstein (00:20.560)
on this podcast and on his, the latter called The Portal.
在这个播客和他的播客上，后者称为“门户”。
Lex Fridman (00:26.400)
Quick mention of each sponsor followed by some thoughts
快速提及每个赞助商，然后是一些想法
Eric Weinstein (00:29.240)
related to the episode.
与情节有关。
Lex Fridman (00:31.220)
First is Grammarly, a service I use in my writing
首先是 Grammarly，我在写作中使用的一项服务
Eric Weinstein (00:35.200)
to check spelling, grammar, sentence structure,
检查拼写、语法、句子结构，
Lex Fridman (00:37.720)
and readability.
和可读性。
Eric Weinstein (00:39.160)
Second is Sunbasket, a meal delivery service I use
第二个是 Sunbasket，我使用的送餐服务
Lex Fridman (00:43.320)
to add healthy variety into my culinary life.
为我的烹饪生活增添健康的多样性。
Eric Weinstein (00:47.640)
Third is SEMrush, the most advanced SEO optimization tool
第三是SEMrush，最先进的SEO优化工具
Lex Fridman (00:51.760)
I've ever come across.
我曾经遇到过。
Eric Weinstein (00:53.400)
I don't like looking at numbers, but somebody should.
我不喜欢看数字，但有人应该喜欢。
Lex Fridman (00:56.640)
It helps you make good decisions.
它可以帮助您做出正确的决定。
Lex Fridman (00:58.840)
And finally, ExpressVPN, the VPN I've used for many years
最后是 ExpressVPN，我使用了很多年的 VPN
Lex Fridman (01:03.180)
to protect my privacy on the internet.
Eric Weinstein (01:05.660)
Please check out these sponsors in the description
Lex Fridman (01:07.960)
to get a discount and to support this podcast.
Eric Weinstein (01:11.680)
As a side note, let me say that wherever this life takes me,
Lex Fridman (01:15.840)
I'm drawn to the possibility of having many more
Eric Weinstein (01:17.940)
conversations with Eric through the years.
Lex Fridman (01:21.280)
I think we have just the right kind of contrast
Eric Weinstein (01:24.960)
in having worldviews and a deep respect and appreciation
Lex Fridman (01:29.120)
of each other's life stories that creates for
Eric Weinstein (01:32.760)
this magical experience in the realm of conversation
Lex Fridman (01:36.240)
that feels like we're always looking for something
Eric Weinstein (01:41.320)
that we never quite find,
Lex Fridman (01:43.640)
but are always better for having tried.
Eric Weinstein (01:46.800)
I'm not sure how or why the universe has connected
Lex Fridman (01:50.200)
Eric and me, but it did.
Lex Fridman (01:52.560)
And I would be a fool not to trust its judgment
Lex Fridman (01:56.240)
and enjoy the journey.
Eric Weinstein (01:58.560)
If somehow you like this podcast,
Lex Fridman (02:01.440)
please subscribe on YouTube,
Eric Weinstein (02:03.000)
review it with five stars on Apple podcast,
Lex Fridman (02:05.440)
follow on Spotify, support on Patreon,
Eric Weinstein (02:08.160)
or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman.
Lex Fridman (02:11.280)
And now here's my conversation with Eric Weinstein.
Lex Fridman (02:16.460)
Who's the greatest musician of all time, would you say?
Lex Fridman (02:19.520)
We were just off camera talking about Eddie Van Halen.
Eric Weinstein (02:21.920)
He unfortunately passed away.
Lex Fridman (02:24.120)
Who's the greatest musician of all time?
Eric Weinstein (02:26.080)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (02:27.400)
Jonathan Richman.
Lex Fridman (02:28.880)
Who's that?
Lex Fridman (02:30.560)
It's a weird question.
Lex Fridman (02:31.560)
So I'm gonna give you a weird answer.
Lex Fridman (02:32.760)
It's not because of...
Eric Weinstein (02:33.580)
Thank you.
Lex Fridman (02:34.420)
Okay, Jonathan Richman.
Eric Weinstein (02:35.240)
The reason I'm picking on him is that he had a quote.
Lex Fridman (02:37.920)
He was the front man of a group called the Modern Lovers.
Lex Fridman (02:41.540)
And his quote was something like,
Lex Fridman (02:43.460)
"'We have to be prepared to play music
Eric Weinstein (02:46.560)
"'when our instruments are broken,
Lex Fridman (02:48.360)
"'the electricity's out and it's raining,'
Eric Weinstein (02:50.120)
"'something like that."
Lex Fridman (02:52.120)
And I thought that that quote was very interesting
Eric Weinstein (02:53.840)
because what it said was,
Lex Fridman (02:55.440)
you have to be able to strip this thing down
Eric Weinstein (02:57.600)
farther and farther back
Lex Fridman (02:58.760)
to get to something that is intrinsically musical.
Lex Fridman (03:01.080)
So we were having a conversation just now about virtuosity.
Lex Fridman (03:05.680)
We're talking about Eddie Van Halen and his recent passing.
Lex Fridman (03:07.960)
And that affected me emotionally.
Lex Fridman (03:09.640)
I don't know whether it affected you.
Eric Weinstein (03:10.600)
I was never a Van Halen, the group fan,
Lex Fridman (03:13.600)
but I revered Eddie Van Halen's capacity for innovation.
Eric Weinstein (03:18.600)
I saw him like Rodney Mullen, the skateboarder.
Lex Fridman (03:23.540)
I had dreamed of having the two of them on the same podcast
Eric Weinstein (03:26.340)
just to talk about what it's like
Lex Fridman (03:27.800)
to totally discontinuously innovate.
Lex Fridman (03:30.700)
And he posted a video of Spanish Fly, I think,
Lex Fridman (03:33.340)
and saying like,
Eric Weinstein (03:34.160)
I didn't know the guitar could make those kinds of sounds.
Lex Fridman (03:36.120)
Like, what is this voodoo magic?
Lex Fridman (03:37.260)
What is it?
Lex Fridman (03:38.520)
Well, this is the thing, right?
Eric Weinstein (03:39.440)
The arpeggios that he did on a single string are so fast
Lex Fridman (03:43.600)
and the attacks from the hammer ons,
Eric Weinstein (03:46.980)
when they go at light speed as he did, particularly.
Lex Fridman (03:51.020)
And the reason I chose that was,
Eric Weinstein (03:52.240)
is that I wanted to strip out the electronics
Lex Fridman (03:55.300)
because part of the claim will be is
Eric Weinstein (03:56.780)
that he's a rock musician.
Lex Fridman (03:57.980)
And a lot of the innovations had to do with things peculiar
Eric Weinstein (04:01.380)
to sort of the electrified setup.
Lex Fridman (04:03.660)
His use of the whammy bar, for example,
Eric Weinstein (04:05.780)
or the Frankenstrat that he built from different pieces.
Lex Fridman (04:11.500)
All of those aspects, in my opinion,
Eric Weinstein (04:15.700)
are just dwarfed by his innovation and his musicianship.
Lex Fridman (04:19.740)
And that's why I chose Spanish Fly,
Eric Weinstein (04:21.620)
because everyone, of course,
Lex Fridman (04:22.660)
will go to something like your eruption
Eric Weinstein (04:24.140)
or running with the devil,
Lex Fridman (04:25.060)
which is the first things that they heard
Eric Weinstein (04:27.900)
that let them know that there was a new force erupting
Lex Fridman (04:30.020)
out of Southern California that was Eddie Van Halen, right?
Eric Weinstein (04:32.820)
I mean, I'm in love with the story of it.
Lex Fridman (04:36.620)
You're often so poetic about music.
Eric Weinstein (04:40.300)
Like it clearly touches your soul on many levels.
Lex Fridman (04:43.980)
What is that?
Eric Weinstein (04:45.460)
Is it deeper than just rocking out
Lex Fridman (04:47.780)
with the in your convertible Corvette 69?
Eric Weinstein (04:52.060)
I imagine Eric Weinstein is driving down
Lex Fridman (04:54.580)
the California highways, blasting some kind of music.
Eric Weinstein (04:58.420)
Is it just like being able to be carefree
Lex Fridman (05:01.980)
for moments of time?
Eric Weinstein (05:03.220)
Or is there something more fundamental
Lex Fridman (05:05.340)
that connects to like the theory of everything
Lex Fridman (05:08.980)
in physics and life and all of that?
Lex Fridman (05:11.700)
How often do you have the chance, for example,
Lex Fridman (05:13.940)
to hear mathematics performed as you do in Bach, right?
Lex Fridman (05:17.820)
Like something with that kind of precision
Lex Fridman (05:19.820)
and elegance that can't really be grasped,
Lex Fridman (05:22.500)
where to go back to Leonard Cohen's famous line,
Lex Fridman (05:28.460)
the baffled king composing, right?
Lex Fridman (05:31.420)
Such a good song.
Eric Weinstein (05:32.380)
Such a good song, but it's also like individual verses
Lex Fridman (05:35.300)
of that song are insanely important.
Eric Weinstein (05:39.260)
The baffled king is how we often make music.
Lex Fridman (05:43.340)
We don't really understand what did we just do
Lex Fridman (05:46.700)
that broke that person's heart sitting on the couch, right?
Lex Fridman (05:50.260)
And so it's a very strange thing
Eric Weinstein (05:52.240)
that you should be able to have.
Lex Fridman (05:54.060)
Think of it like you're a computer.
Lex Fridman (05:55.500)
You've got this weird open music port, port 37.8, you know?
Lex Fridman (06:00.700)
Like it's not even supposed to be there.
Lex Fridman (06:03.220)
And suddenly somebody starts playing guitar
Lex Fridman (06:05.260)
and they're making you feel things.
Eric Weinstein (06:07.540)
Or like in particular, particular instruments
Lex Fridman (06:10.260)
like the violin, it's so difficult.
Eric Weinstein (06:14.060)
It's so unforgiving.
Lex Fridman (06:15.180)
And when it gives up its secrets,
Eric Weinstein (06:16.960)
it just, you know, it wraps its fingers
Lex Fridman (06:19.780)
around your heart and won't let go.
Eric Weinstein (06:22.020)
Sometimes I talk about head, heart, and loins.
Lex Fridman (06:24.980)
When something can grab your head, heart, and your loins
Eric Weinstein (06:27.600)
at the same moment and integrate them,
Lex Fridman (06:32.180)
there are very few opportunities to live like that.
Lex Fridman (06:34.620)
And if you think about Eddie Van Halen,
Lex Fridman (06:36.580)
as far as your head, the musical innovations
Lex Fridman (06:42.020)
and the fact that he was drawing directly
Lex Fridman (06:43.980)
from the classical canon really speaks to the idea
Eric Weinstein (06:48.580)
that maybe rock is what somebody like Jimi Hendrix saw it
Lex Fridman (06:53.380)
as being, you know, an infinitely extensible medium.
Eric Weinstein (06:56.700)
In terms of heart, I always notice the smile on his face.
Lex Fridman (07:01.620)
It's painful to look at an Eddie Van Halen solo now.
Eric Weinstein (07:05.380)
Like sometimes you'll see the cigarette dripping off
Lex Fridman (07:07.580)
the side of his mouth and you're like,
Eric Weinstein (07:09.580)
that's gonna fucking kill you.
Lex Fridman (07:10.940)
And I'm not even worried about it for you.
Eric Weinstein (07:12.340)
I'm worried about it for me.
Lex Fridman (07:13.740)
You're gonna rob.
Eric Weinstein (07:14.740)
I don't even need to hear you play another note.
Lex Fridman (07:16.660)
I just like knowing that you're in the world,
Eric Weinstein (07:19.100)
that there is somebody that everyone looks to that nobody,
Lex Fridman (07:22.020)
I've never heard a guitarist say, eh, I don't know.
Eric Weinstein (07:25.660)
I think he was okay.
Lex Fridman (07:26.860)
Like I've never heard it.
Eric Weinstein (07:28.340)
You can hate him, but you still think he was a genius.
Lex Fridman (07:31.540)
There are very few people like that in the world.
Lex Fridman (07:34.820)
And then loins, those leaps,
Lex Fridman (07:37.580)
that guy was incredibly good looking
Eric Weinstein (07:39.900)
and, you know, skin tight pants, super athleticism.
Lex Fridman (07:43.060)
He completely owned the male sexuality of the stage,
Eric Weinstein (07:47.620)
both being the completely dominant,
Lex Fridman (07:50.060)
you know, sort of mythical alpha male.
Eric Weinstein (07:52.020)
I hate that expression, but there you are.
Lex Fridman (07:54.540)
But also this kind of little boy with this mischievous smirk
Eric Weinstein (07:58.420)
and, you know, the sense that it all came together.
Lex Fridman (08:02.900)
How could you not eat that up?
Eric Weinstein (08:04.020)
You could just imagine the millions
Lex Fridman (08:05.900)
of like young teenage boys, gorgeous,
Eric Weinstein (08:07.900)
like playing air guitar in their room,
Lex Fridman (08:11.100)
just that, yeah, basically dreaming
Eric Weinstein (08:13.700)
of being that kind of God,
Lex Fridman (08:17.500)
the most perfect example of what a human being can be.
Eric Weinstein (08:20.340)
Yeah, it's fascinating to think.
Lex Fridman (08:22.060)
It is, and then, you know,
Eric Weinstein (08:24.020)
as in many of the cases with these bands,
Lex Fridman (08:27.140)
you get these multiple talents in the same outfit.
Lex Fridman (08:30.700)
And I think that the original configuration
Lex Fridman (08:33.500)
with David Lee Roth, I mean,
Eric Weinstein (08:34.580)
David Lee Roth is such a hot mess at all times.
Lex Fridman (08:38.100)
I would love you to talk to David Lee Roth.
Eric Weinstein (08:41.540)
Like if the, that dance would be just gorgeous.
Lex Fridman (08:46.660)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (08:47.980)
Can you handle it?
Lex Fridman (08:48.820)
Can you ride that?
Eric Weinstein (08:49.660)
Probably not.
Lex Fridman (08:50.500)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (08:51.340)
Probably not because I think he's very,
Lex Fridman (08:54.260)
I get the feeling that he's very smart
Lex Fridman (08:57.220)
and very dysregulated.
Lex Fridman (09:00.140)
And I don't know that I could,
Eric Weinstein (09:02.300)
like bring him down to earth for a moment.
Lex Fridman (09:04.860)
Well, I can also get pretty dysregulated, you know?
Lex Fridman (09:07.460)
And so I don't know whether, it could be magic.
Lex Fridman (09:10.500)
It could be a shit show.
Eric Weinstein (09:11.700)
I don't know what you thought of his appearance on Rogan.
Lex Fridman (09:14.060)
That was an interesting one.
Eric Weinstein (09:15.660)
I loved it, but Joe and that,
Lex Fridman (09:17.940)
and Joe does this sometimes,
Eric Weinstein (09:19.140)
sometimes he just sits back and listens
Lex Fridman (09:21.740)
and he just lets like the music play,
Eric Weinstein (09:24.820)
which works really well.
Lex Fridman (09:26.580)
I think you have a chance to kind of jump into the chaos
Lex Fridman (09:31.140)
and then you'll just start.
Lex Fridman (09:32.820)
And the places you will go,
Eric Weinstein (09:34.860)
you may not even talk about music for like hours.
Lex Fridman (09:37.540)
It might just go to this,
Eric Weinstein (09:38.860)
cause he, I think lives in Japan.
Lex Fridman (09:40.220)
Like there's a weird,
Eric Weinstein (09:41.540)
he's been an EMT after he was a rock star.
Lex Fridman (09:45.020)
He chose to be kind of like,
Eric Weinstein (09:47.220)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (09:48.060)
You know, it's like there's depth to that man
Eric Weinstein (09:50.900)
that hasn't been explored by him either.
Lex Fridman (09:53.980)
So that'll be an exciting conversation.
Lex Fridman (09:56.260)
Can we go back to Larry Cohen?
Lex Fridman (09:58.140)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (09:58.980)
Can we just,
Lex Fridman (09:59.820)
the things I feel when I listen to Hallelujah
Eric Weinstein (10:03.420)
by Leonard Cohen or anything by him really,
Lex Fridman (10:05.780)
but that one.
Lex Fridman (10:07.540)
Do you really want to get into it?
Lex Fridman (10:08.860)
Let's go.
Lex Fridman (10:09.700)
What is it that song mean to you?
Lex Fridman (10:14.620)
Is it love?
Eric Weinstein (10:15.820)
Oh boy.
Lex Fridman (10:17.140)
Well, first of all, it's mystery.
Eric Weinstein (10:19.900)
Like it starts off about mystery.
Lex Fridman (10:22.540)
So what are you doing?
Eric Weinstein (10:24.220)
You're doing this alternation between the two chords.
Lex Fridman (10:28.740)
So three notes at the same time.
Eric Weinstein (10:30.420)
One is called the tonic,
Lex Fridman (10:33.900)
or you have the major and the relative minor
Lex Fridman (10:36.580)
and he's alternating between them.
Lex Fridman (10:38.380)
There's only one note of difference
Eric Weinstein (10:39.820)
between those two chords.
Lex Fridman (10:41.140)
One of them would be feeling sad.
Eric Weinstein (10:42.700)
One of them would be more joyous, typically described.
Lex Fridman (10:46.780)
And so by altering one note,
Eric Weinstein (10:48.300)
it's the minimal amount to take you back and forth
Lex Fridman (10:50.700)
between joy and happiness as that's encoded in us.
Lex Fridman (10:54.820)
So he starts off with,
Lex Fridman (10:55.980)
I heard there was a scene,
Eric Weinstein (10:57.220)
David played the please a little bit.
Lex Fridman (10:58.500)
You don't really care for music, do you?
Eric Weinstein (11:02.420)
That's really interesting
Lex Fridman (11:03.740)
because he's using this technique called Bethos, right?
Lex Fridman (11:06.620)
So the alternation between the sublime
Lex Fridman (11:10.260)
and kind of the guttural or ridiculous or the mundane, right?
Lex Fridman (11:13.460)
So he's like.
Lex Fridman (11:15.340)
There's a bitterness to it too.
Lex Fridman (11:16.980)
Is it just play?
Lex Fridman (11:18.260)
Well, the way I hear it, again,
Eric Weinstein (11:19.900)
a great song allows for different interpretations.
Lex Fridman (11:21.940)
You happen to be asking me,
Lex Fridman (11:23.260)
so I'm going to impart some stuff
Lex Fridman (11:24.460)
that probably isn't in the song,
Lex Fridman (11:25.700)
but why it speaks to me,
Lex Fridman (11:26.660)
that's what makes it great.
Eric Weinstein (11:28.980)
The way I hear it is he doesn't believe the audience.
Lex Fridman (11:31.300)
You don't really care for music, do you?
Lex Fridman (11:32.740)
Then what are you doing listening to this?
Lex Fridman (11:34.220)
You stupid idiots, of course you care for music.
Eric Weinstein (11:37.500)
You're too cool to care.
Lex Fridman (11:39.340)
So I see through you and screw you.
Eric Weinstein (11:41.500)
That's the energy I get.
Lex Fridman (11:45.100)
Then he does this weird thing.
Eric Weinstein (11:46.420)
It goes like this is where he should put the description
Lex Fridman (11:50.020)
of where he is in the chord progression,
Lex Fridman (11:51.660)
which is the tonic, right?
Lex Fridman (11:53.300)
It goes like this.
Lex Fridman (11:54.140)
And then he hits the fourth and the fifth,
Lex Fridman (11:56.740)
which are the two other major elements,
Eric Weinstein (11:58.740)
the subdominant and the dominant in functional harmony.
Lex Fridman (12:02.020)
So he's describing the chord progression
Eric Weinstein (12:04.700)
in real time in the lyrics.
Lex Fridman (12:07.060)
There's two ways this can come about in other songs.
Eric Weinstein (12:10.220)
We had this example of every time we say goodbye.
Lex Fridman (12:14.580)
Do you know this song?
Eric Weinstein (12:15.900)
Every time we say goodbye.
Lex Fridman (12:17.660)
No, I think it was a Cole Porter, maybe,
Eric Weinstein (12:20.540)
or Gershwin, maybe Porter, I don't know.
Lex Fridman (12:22.820)
I cry a little, there is no love song finer,
Lex Fridman (12:27.100)
but how strange the change from major to minor, right?
Lex Fridman (12:32.500)
Like it's a beautiful use of it.
Eric Weinstein (12:34.820)
Then there's times when it's duplicitous.
Lex Fridman (12:37.380)
So for example, you'll have,
Eric Weinstein (12:41.260)
I guess my favorite examples of this
Lex Fridman (12:42.660)
are Johnny Cash's Ring of Fire.
Eric Weinstein (12:45.340)
I fell into a burning ring of fire.
Lex Fridman (12:48.340)
And then what does he do with the lyrics in the tune?
Eric Weinstein (12:53.020)
I went down, down, down.
Lex Fridman (12:55.620)
He goes up, right?
Lex Fridman (12:56.940)
And so the idea is like, oh, okay, that was a head fake.
Lex Fridman (13:00.180)
And another one of these is Nina Simone's Feeling Good.
Lex Fridman (13:05.860)
Oh, okay, so what do you get?
Lex Fridman (13:07.340)
Birds flying high, you know how I feel.
Eric Weinstein (13:12.340)
Then sun up in the sky, you know how I feel.
Lex Fridman (13:18.740)
That woman's voice, she doesn't give a damn yet.
Eric Weinstein (13:22.140)
She's just.
Lex Fridman (13:22.980)
And I feel it, but then what's the, da dum, da dum.
Eric Weinstein (13:26.300)
It's like heavy stripping music.
Lex Fridman (13:28.140)
It's, you're not in a good place.
Eric Weinstein (13:30.620)
You're probably in some strip club,
Lex Fridman (13:33.180)
with the last of your money,
Eric Weinstein (13:34.460)
you're drinking lousy beer, some bad situation.
Lex Fridman (13:39.180)
And she's feeling good?
Eric Weinstein (13:40.380)
No, it's funereal.
Lex Fridman (13:41.660)
It's oppressive, right?
Eric Weinstein (13:43.540)
I never thought of that song that way.
Lex Fridman (13:45.580)
Wow.
Lex Fridman (13:46.700)
Well, you think of it as joyous?
Lex Fridman (13:48.260)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (13:49.100)
No, no, no, if you think about it,
Lex Fridman (13:50.140)
contrast it with Ray Charles, for example.
Lex Fridman (13:53.220)
You know, do you know Lonely Avenue?
Lex Fridman (13:56.540)
Well, my room has got two windows,
Lex Fridman (14:00.060)
but the sunshine never comes through.
Lex Fridman (14:02.820)
It's really depressed.
Eric Weinstein (14:04.300)
It's the same sort of vibe as Nina,
Lex Fridman (14:07.980)
but she's claiming that she's in great shape.
Lex Fridman (14:09.780)
So she's like a good case of the unreliable narrator.
Lex Fridman (14:13.340)
Leonard Cohen, to me,
Eric Weinstein (14:14.180)
is talking about the unreliable audience.
Lex Fridman (14:16.020)
That's too cool to be with the performer on stage.
Eric Weinstein (14:18.740)
There are things that go with the music,
Lex Fridman (14:20.020)
like the Cole Porter stuff,
Eric Weinstein (14:21.220)
there's go against like the Johnny Cash.
Lex Fridman (14:23.460)
I think these are the games that musicians play
Eric Weinstein (14:26.180)
that the rest of us only sort of notice subliminally.
Lex Fridman (14:30.180)
Okay.
Eric Weinstein (14:31.100)
Fourth, the fifth, then he,
Lex Fridman (14:33.180)
when he, he should say something about the relative minor
Eric Weinstein (14:36.020)
or the, he's giving you the secret,
Lex Fridman (14:38.100)
the baffled king, in other words,
Eric Weinstein (14:40.180)
he doesn't know why it works.
Lex Fridman (14:42.300)
Did Pachelbel know why Pachelbel's Canon would work?
Eric Weinstein (14:45.940)
It was a discovery.
Lex Fridman (14:47.100)
That's the whole thing.
Eric Weinstein (14:48.140)
Like some music is discovered and some music is invented.
Lex Fridman (14:52.700)
And he's talking about a musical discovery.
Eric Weinstein (14:56.260)
He's talking about the Pythagorean power
Lex Fridman (14:59.060)
of the wave equation and then superimpose,
Eric Weinstein (15:01.980)
like there's two genius intellectual concepts behind music.
Lex Fridman (15:05.900)
One of which is the wave equation.
Eric Weinstein (15:07.900)
Usually we solve it for a one dimensional medium
Lex Fridman (15:09.940)
because we're talking about strings or air columns.
Eric Weinstein (15:11.940)
Occasionally you're talking about things like handpans
Lex Fridman (15:15.620)
or steel drums or metallophones or gamelons, whatever.
Lex Fridman (15:19.180)
And those have a wave equation too,
Lex Fridman (15:21.740)
that's much more chaotic.
Eric Weinstein (15:23.740)
The other equation is this crazy thing
Lex Fridman (15:25.740)
that two to the 19 twelfths is almost exactly equal to three,
Eric Weinstein (15:29.780)
which is what gave us even temperament.
Lex Fridman (15:31.900)
And so the tension between those two things
Eric Weinstein (15:34.220)
is in fact one of these most beautiful stories
Lex Fridman (15:37.780)
inside of that system.
Eric Weinstein (15:40.220)
That formula of the baffled king is a discovery.
Lex Fridman (15:43.220)
It's not, he's not really composing it.
Eric Weinstein (15:46.100)
The reason he's baffled,
Lex Fridman (15:47.460)
it's imagine that you took like a little brush
Lex Fridman (15:50.660)
and you started brushing off a pyramid under the sands.
Lex Fridman (15:55.380)
You might think that you created the pyramid
Eric Weinstein (15:57.660)
by your brushing, but in fact, if somebody else did it,
Lex Fridman (16:00.300)
that's why you're baffled, right?
Eric Weinstein (16:02.860)
That's beautifully put, you're right.
Lex Fridman (16:04.140)
And as creating one of the greatest songs of all time
Lex Fridman (16:07.940)
and as he's doing it, he's baffled.
Lex Fridman (16:10.380)
And he's within the song.
Lex Fridman (16:13.260)
And he Leonard is baffled is my contention,
Lex Fridman (16:15.660)
but he knows enough to know that he's baffled, right?
Lex Fridman (16:19.180)
And so the idea is that he is composing,
Lex Fridman (16:20.940)
he has the audacity to compose as David.
Eric Weinstein (16:27.620)
He's echoing David at a minimum.
Lex Fridman (16:30.580)
And then in a later song,
Eric Weinstein (16:31.660)
which I really wish we would discuss,
Lex Fridman (16:32.980)
that's totally dystopic and you will not like it at all,
Eric Weinstein (16:36.500)
is the future, which contains this line
Lex Fridman (16:39.940)
that I think I used in my episode
Eric Weinstein (16:41.980)
with Roger Penrose on the portal.
Lex Fridman (16:44.500)
Note the subtle plug.
Eric Weinstein (16:45.940)
The portal, the portal, the portal, the portal.
Lex Fridman (16:49.820)
I'm the little Jew that wrote the Bible.
Lex Fridman (16:51.940)
So there is this way in which Leonard Cohen,
Lex Fridman (16:54.100)
I think is constantly coming to the idea
Eric Weinstein (16:56.420)
of being a biblical like scribe.
Lex Fridman (16:59.940)
And I think this is one of the great things
Eric Weinstein (17:01.500)
that you see Dylan doing this with all along the watchtower.
Lex Fridman (17:04.460)
You saw Warren Zevon, who we should talk much more about,
Eric Weinstein (17:07.860)
doing this with a song called I Was in the House
Lex Fridman (17:10.140)
When the House Burned Down.
Lex Fridman (17:11.180)
Do you know this thing?
Lex Fridman (17:12.380)
No.
Eric Weinstein (17:13.220)
This is embarrassing.
Lex Fridman (17:14.040)
Sweetheart.
Eric Weinstein (17:14.880)
This is a great day.
Lex Fridman (17:16.500)
Warren Zevon is one of the most important songwriters
Eric Weinstein (17:19.340)
of our time.
Lex Fridman (17:20.180)
And he's been largely forgotten by this generation.
Lex Fridman (17:26.540)
But Bob Dylan would sing one of his songs in tribute.
Lex Fridman (17:29.820)
I've heard Bob Dylan, you know,
Eric Weinstein (17:33.020)
very small number of songwriters really move him.
Lex Fridman (17:35.220)
Woody Guthrie, Gordon Lightfoot, and Warren Zevon.
Eric Weinstein (17:40.580)
By the way, Bob Dylan, if you're out there,
Lex Fridman (17:43.020)
appear on either one of our podcasts.
Eric Weinstein (17:45.280)
We need to get your voice into a new medium
Lex Fridman (17:47.300)
for a new group.
Eric Weinstein (17:48.580)
Definitely.
Lex Fridman (17:49.420)
This is a time for Bob Dylan, my friend.
Eric Weinstein (17:52.780)
Honestly, you've been doing an amazing job in this space.
Lex Fridman (17:55.700)
One of the reasons I'm super excited to do this podcast
Eric Weinstein (17:57.940)
again is that I've learned some things
Lex Fridman (18:01.700)
about what I don't do well.
Lex Fridman (18:03.220)
And I also have sort of struggled with the question,
Lex Fridman (18:07.200)
should I do those things better?
Eric Weinstein (18:08.700)
Because what if it's, you know,
Lex Fridman (18:10.460)
I always use the same example of the fitted sheet
Eric Weinstein (18:12.540)
when you're trying to put a queen size fitted sheet
Lex Fridman (18:14.740)
on a king size mattress.
Eric Weinstein (18:15.980)
He's like, okay, I got that corner squared away.
Lex Fridman (18:17.740)
Then you get another corner that pops off
Lex Fridman (18:19.340)
and they have to go back around.
Lex Fridman (18:21.280)
I wonder whether I can improve my style in the ways in which,
Eric Weinstein (18:24.780)
you know, I think it's just a recognition of a difference.
Lex Fridman (18:28.860)
You do a better job of getting to the soul
Eric Weinstein (18:32.060)
of a really top intellectual guest
Lex Fridman (18:35.420)
and making them accessible and presenting them
Eric Weinstein (18:38.820)
as themselves for a huge number of people.
Lex Fridman (18:42.300)
And I'd give my eye tooth to be able to do that.
Lex Fridman (18:45.260)
Do you ever think about this?
Lex Fridman (18:46.940)
Like, cause I think about what is the greatest
Eric Weinstein (18:50.100)
conversation I'll ever have.
Lex Fridman (18:52.500)
You know, like in a sense of the portal,
Eric Weinstein (18:55.660)
not to reduce it to anything,
Lex Fridman (18:57.660)
but there will be the greatest conversation.
Eric Weinstein (19:00.820)
You may have already had it, but it's very possible.
Lex Fridman (19:03.660)
If enough people like me can keep twisting your arm
Eric Weinstein (19:07.260)
to keep doing the portal, please,
Lex Fridman (19:09.140)
that is, there'll be an amazing conversation.
Eric Weinstein (19:12.060)
One of the questions that I ask myself is like,
Lex Fridman (19:16.020)
who is the person that I'm especially equipped?
Eric Weinstein (19:20.420)
For some reason, I'm convinced on Putin.
Lex Fridman (19:23.040)
There's something in my head that says,
Eric Weinstein (19:25.180)
I can do this man better than anyone else in this world.
Lex Fridman (19:30.060)
I got this thought in my head about it, I don't know why.
Lex Fridman (19:32.820)
And I'm convinced, but I think the universe works
Lex Fridman (19:34.860)
in that way.
Eric Weinstein (19:35.700)
Like if it tells you, it's gonna happen.
Lex Fridman (19:38.140)
The way I would say it is, is that almost everybody
Eric Weinstein (19:40.600)
who becomes a Supreme Court justice believes
Lex Fridman (19:43.700)
at a very early age, they're going to become
Eric Weinstein (19:45.620)
a Supreme Court justice.
Lex Fridman (19:46.500)
Many people believe at an early age that they can do it,
Eric Weinstein (19:48.740)
don't get there.
Lex Fridman (19:49.820)
But of those who get there, almost all of them
Eric Weinstein (19:52.000)
had this sort of, well, I call it pathological
Lex Fridman (19:55.700)
self confidence.
Lex Fridman (19:56.940)
And I do think you have pathological self confidence
Lex Fridman (1:00:00.280)
But they'll also digest it for each other.
Eric Weinstein (1:00:02.080)
It's one of the great lessons of long form podcasting.
Lex Fridman (1:00:04.440)
If you don't waste all your time explaining things,
Eric Weinstein (1:00:07.560)
that's the job of the audience to do amongst themselves.
Lex Fridman (1:00:11.200)
They're happy doing the work.
Lex Fridman (1:00:12.640)
And those who aren't, they leave.
Lex Fridman (1:00:14.360)
Isn't that great?
Eric Weinstein (1:00:15.200)
They'll leave.
Lex Fridman (1:00:16.040)
The people who don't wanna struggle will leave.
Eric Weinstein (1:00:18.440)
You can get rid of them.
Lex Fridman (1:00:20.160)
I think that the point is you would want to say
Eric Weinstein (1:00:23.840)
violence is defined relative to a context.
Lex Fridman (1:00:28.040)
So let's call it meta violence so that we don't get
Eric Weinstein (1:00:30.400)
into the problem.
Lex Fridman (1:00:32.200)
We already have a term for physical violence, right?
Lex Fridman (1:00:34.600)
So we have meta violence and physical violence.
Lex Fridman (1:00:37.440)
I would say that physical violence
Eric Weinstein (1:00:38.720)
is subclassed from meta violence.
Lex Fridman (1:00:40.600)
Meta violence is the disruption of a system.
Eric Weinstein (1:00:43.200)
It's sort of, for example, if a cell dies,
Lex Fridman (1:00:49.120)
you can die through apoptosis or necrosis.
Eric Weinstein (1:00:52.280)
Apoptosis is controlled programmed cell death.
Lex Fridman (1:00:55.400)
Necrosis is just like, okay, this didn't work.
Eric Weinstein (1:00:59.960)
That was a violent disruption of the system.
Lex Fridman (1:01:02.200)
And this meta class is presumed in the documentation.
Lex Fridman (1:01:05.760)
Is it all negative?
Lex Fridman (1:01:07.600)
No, what are you talking about?
Lex Fridman (1:01:10.120)
So this is part of the problem
Lex Fridman (1:01:12.200)
in the madness of our age, right?
Eric Weinstein (1:01:14.320)
Which is if you open up a drawer in your cabinet,
Lex Fridman (1:01:20.800)
right, in your kitchen,
Lex Fridman (1:01:23.200)
and you see knives, spoons, and forks,
Lex Fridman (1:01:25.960)
do you have a sense that the spoons are good utensils
Lex Fridman (1:01:28.600)
and the knives or forks are bad utensils
Lex Fridman (1:01:30.560)
because they're mean?
Eric Weinstein (1:01:32.080)
I mean, like if you start thinking in these terms,
Lex Fridman (1:01:36.000)
that knife is there to do violence.
Lex Fridman (1:01:39.120)
That's violence you want done, right?
Lex Fridman (1:01:43.040)
When I cut a mango, I'm doing violence to the mango.
Eric Weinstein (1:01:46.560)
The mango expects that I will do violence to it
Lex Fridman (1:01:48.760)
because otherwise I won't be able to get the meat
Lex Fridman (1:01:51.400)
and it won't get its seed spread somewhere else.
Lex Fridman (1:01:56.560)
So in part, violence is absolutely part of our story.
Eric Weinstein (1:02:01.200)
So, okay, so there's this meta violence class.
Lex Fridman (1:02:04.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:02:05.080)
And what's...
Lex Fridman (1:02:05.920)
So the meta violence class is already,
Eric Weinstein (1:02:08.560)
it's a multiple inheritance pattern.
Lex Fridman (1:02:10.000)
Whatever's going on right now inherits from meta violence.
Eric Weinstein (1:02:13.440)
No, but there's certain subclasses
Lex Fridman (1:02:16.000)
that allow evil to emerge.
Lex Fridman (1:02:21.000)
So what I'm specifically worried about is that...
Lex Fridman (1:02:24.880)
What's on your mind, Lex?
Lex Fridman (1:02:26.080)
What's really going on?
Lex Fridman (1:02:27.080)
Okay.
Eric Weinstein (1:02:29.160)
I worry that amidst the chaos of these protests
Lex Fridman (1:02:36.800)
or the chaos that could be created by the feeling
Eric Weinstein (1:02:42.680)
that the election does not represent the voice
Lex Fridman (1:02:47.120)
of the people, like saying that whoever gets,
Eric Weinstein (1:02:50.120)
quote unquote, wins the election
Lex Fridman (1:02:51.880)
according to some kind of reporting of the numbers
Eric Weinstein (1:02:55.440)
that come out, that's not going to represent
Lex Fridman (1:02:58.960)
what people actually want to be the leader.
Eric Weinstein (1:03:02.840)
Like something in that narrative will create
Lex Fridman (1:03:05.160)
so much division that people will resort
Eric Weinstein (1:03:09.040)
to literal violence, like protests that really...
Lex Fridman (1:03:14.240)
That the United States loses its united aspect.
Lex Fridman (1:03:17.680)
And because of that, because of that chaos and tension,
Lex Fridman (1:03:21.800)
evil people, evil forces that my definition of evil
Eric Weinstein (1:03:27.040)
is just cruel human beings use that moment to attain power.
Lex Fridman (1:03:33.040)
The kind of power that is ultimately goes against the ideal
Eric Weinstein (1:03:37.920)
of the United States.
Lex Fridman (1:03:39.200)
That could be Donald Trump.
Eric Weinstein (1:03:40.760)
That could be another human being.
Lex Fridman (1:03:42.520)
It doesn't really matter.
Eric Weinstein (1:03:43.880)
My worry is that love doesn't win out in this.
Lex Fridman (1:03:47.760)
The unity doesn't win out in this.
Lex Fridman (1:03:49.960)
And I feel like you and I have responsibility.
Lex Fridman (1:03:57.120)
No kidding. Yeah, I know.
Lex Fridman (1:03:58.880)
And so how do we let love win in this moment
Lex Fridman (1:04:03.760)
of potential chaos? We're gonna have to fight for it.
Eric Weinstein (1:04:07.480)
You're gonna have to become a fighter.
Lex Fridman (1:04:09.840)
You're gonna have to throw some serious punches
Eric Weinstein (1:04:12.320)
if that's what you want.
Lex Fridman (1:04:13.760)
You have to be Muhammad Ali here
Eric Weinstein (1:04:15.240)
because the moment you start criticizing anything,
Lex Fridman (1:04:19.480)
people, you have to be a masterful communicator because...
Eric Weinstein (1:04:23.240)
That's why you're here.
Lex Fridman (1:04:26.120)
Look, Lex, in part, your decency is allowing you
Eric Weinstein (1:04:33.040)
to do things that you couldn't otherwise do.
Lex Fridman (1:04:35.120)
I saw that you had Michael Malice on your podcast.
Eric Weinstein (1:04:38.400)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:04:39.520)
Now, Michael Malice is, I think of somebody
Lex Fridman (1:04:43.240)
who at his best is extremely shrewd and insightful, yes?
Lex Fridman (1:04:49.280)
He's also got this trolling game,
Eric Weinstein (1:04:51.240)
which he's quite open about and you talk to him about it,
Lex Fridman (1:04:53.560)
which I can't stand.
Lex Fridman (1:04:55.760)
And this is the idea, oh, grandpa doesn't get the internet.
Lex Fridman (1:04:58.120)
Well, I'm grandpa, I don't get the internet.
Eric Weinstein (1:05:00.000)
I don't love the trolling.
Lex Fridman (1:05:01.880)
There are trolls of the past who were incredibly good.
Eric Weinstein (1:05:07.640)
I don't see any of the modern trolls
Lex Fridman (1:05:09.920)
as being that kind of genius level trolling the people
Eric Weinstein (1:05:12.920)
who deserve it in the way that they deserve it.
Lex Fridman (1:05:16.480)
Right now, what I see is that anything
Eric Weinstein (1:05:18.400)
that stands up gets cut down.
Lex Fridman (1:05:20.200)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (1:05:21.040)
It's like anything earnest,
Lex Fridman (1:05:23.160)
you have to turn it into cynicism and a meme.
Eric Weinstein (1:05:25.960)
It's this idea that the people who believe
Lex Fridman (1:05:28.440)
that the world is chaos and has no point
Eric Weinstein (1:05:30.800)
are constantly trying to let you know,
Lex Fridman (1:05:33.320)
don't try to use the internet for meaning,
Eric Weinstein (1:05:35.720)
for decency, for goodness, because we are going to find out
Lex Fridman (1:05:39.120)
that that's all sanctimonious hypocrisy.
Lex Fridman (1:05:41.840)
And we will make you suffer.
Lex Fridman (1:05:44.440)
So I do think that there's a lot
Eric Weinstein (1:05:46.640)
of sanctimonious hypocrisy in the world.
Lex Fridman (1:05:48.320)
Some of it mine, some of it yours, but we all have it.
Lex Fridman (1:05:53.080)
And the trolls somewhat remove that,
Lex Fridman (1:05:55.360)
but it's not a judicious, kind, constructive,
Eric Weinstein (1:05:57.740)
compassionate, caring version most of the time.
Lex Fridman (1:06:00.360)
And a lot of those trolls,
Lex Fridman (1:06:01.680)
and I have this feeling about Michael Malice,
Lex Fridman (1:06:03.600)
I don't know whether it's right,
Eric Weinstein (1:06:05.560)
that there's somebody who deeply cares and loves beneath it
Lex Fridman (1:06:08.960)
and that that's motivating some of the trolling behavior.
Lex Fridman (1:06:11.880)
And you and I don't seem to be doing that.
Lex Fridman (1:06:13.680)
I don't see you as almost ever trolling.
Eric Weinstein (1:06:16.560)
Now you and I, I'm very much against trolling.
Lex Fridman (1:06:19.760)
I'm very much against trolling.
Eric Weinstein (1:06:21.520)
It doesn't mean that it's selective.
Lex Fridman (1:06:23.920)
You know what, it's not even true.
Eric Weinstein (1:06:26.640)
Like everything we say, we say like,
Lex Fridman (1:06:28.480)
I'm for it, I'm against it.
Eric Weinstein (1:06:31.120)
This isn't my native language.
Lex Fridman (1:06:33.000)
I speak nuance.
Eric Weinstein (1:06:33.920)
I don't speak this internet shit.
Lex Fridman (1:06:35.520)
And the more I have to communicate through internet shit,
Eric Weinstein (1:06:40.880)
right, I almost never take a tweet seriously
Lex Fridman (1:06:44.360)
if it contains the letters LMAO, LOL, RTFOL, you know, FOL.
Eric Weinstein (1:06:51.120)
There's an interesting effect where people say stuff
Lex Fridman (1:06:54.360)
and then finish with LOL.
Eric Weinstein (1:06:56.320)
You put it beautifully that it indicates to me
Lex Fridman (1:06:59.680)
that this is a person,
Eric Weinstein (1:07:00.800)
we've talked about like why I wear this stupid suit,
Lex Fridman (1:07:03.280)
is like this is anti, this is to fight the LOL
Eric Weinstein (1:07:06.720)
at the end of sentences, is take,
Lex Fridman (1:07:09.600)
it's like stand up for the words you're saying.
Eric Weinstein (1:07:11.920)
Don't finish stuff with LOL,
Lex Fridman (1:07:14.640)
removing completely the responsibility of the content
Eric Weinstein (1:07:17.240)
of the sentence that preceded it.
Lex Fridman (1:07:19.400)
Yeah, also choosing the outfit that works both
Eric Weinstein (1:07:22.560)
for Men in Black and the Blues Brothers,
Lex Fridman (1:07:24.480)
not a terrible choice.
Eric Weinstein (1:07:26.680)
Okay, but getting back, look, Lex,
Lex Fridman (1:07:28.960)
we're not in a position to do this.
Eric Weinstein (1:07:31.080)
You need to be seated in a different chair.
Lex Fridman (1:07:35.600)
Your chair is the wrong chair.
Eric Weinstein (1:07:37.120)
You're in the wrong chair.
Lex Fridman (1:07:39.080)
It's been so long.
Eric Weinstein (1:07:41.320)
All right, I want to talk about you and Joe Biden.
Lex Fridman (1:07:46.720)
Joe Biden was a 29 year old guy
Eric Weinstein (1:07:49.400)
with nothing particular going on so far as I can tell.
Lex Fridman (1:07:54.200)
Okay, I know people as impressive at age 29 as Joe Biden,
Eric Weinstein (1:07:59.200)
12 rows back, 3D, doesn't matter, huge number of people.
Lex Fridman (1:08:05.800)
None of them my age can get to where he got to.
Eric Weinstein (1:08:09.320)
Like we're all morons.
Lex Fridman (1:08:12.400)
Anytime somebody takes out,
Eric Weinstein (1:08:14.800)
like if you found Eddie Van Halen in a guitar shop,
Lex Fridman (1:08:19.020)
you'd be angry.
Lex Fridman (1:08:20.880)
What is this guy doing repairing guitars?
Lex Fridman (1:08:25.500)
Then somebody will say, maybe he loves to repair guitars.
Eric Weinstein (1:08:29.100)
Yeah, I mean, what is your piano,
Lex Fridman (1:08:30.760)
Russian piano tuner doing?
Lex Fridman (1:08:32.200)
What is my Russian piano?
Lex Fridman (1:08:33.560)
That was the whole point of that story,
Eric Weinstein (1:08:36.560)
which is what is it that happened in that life
Lex Fridman (1:08:40.480)
that converted somebody?
Lex Fridman (1:08:41.640)
And I find this, for example, with Russian doctors
Lex Fridman (1:08:44.780)
who are technicians in offices now.
Eric Weinstein (1:08:49.340)
There's a huge amount of talent in the world
Lex Fridman (1:08:52.340)
that's not sitting in its proper seat.
Lex Fridman (1:08:54.800)
And quite honestly, I've gotten to the point
Lex Fridman (1:08:57.780)
where my feeling is we've got to take the seats.
Lex Fridman (1:09:03.220)
And maybe we don't sit in them.
Lex Fridman (1:09:05.020)
Maybe the idea is that we take the seats
Lex Fridman (1:09:06.660)
and we put some smart Gen Z person in the seat
Lex Fridman (1:09:09.500)
and say, look, no chanting.
Eric Weinstein (1:09:12.780)
I don't wanna hear you say, no justice, no peace.
Lex Fridman (1:09:15.500)
If there aren't verbs, if it rhymes, it's wrong.
Eric Weinstein (1:09:20.020)
Like I used to have this thing,
Lex Fridman (1:09:21.700)
if it rhymed things that rhymed wrong,
Eric Weinstein (1:09:23.500)
if it rhymed things that rhyme are more true.
Lex Fridman (1:09:26.340)
But like in general, if something starts out
Eric Weinstein (1:09:28.980)
one, two, three, four,
Lex Fridman (1:09:30.260)
I don't wanna hear what the rest of your sentences.
Eric Weinstein (1:09:32.180)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:09:34.540)
But I feel like the responsibility that you carry,
Eric Weinstein (1:09:38.300)
that I carry, this is where Joe Rogan
Lex Fridman (1:09:42.420)
generally removes himself from being,
Eric Weinstein (1:09:44.740)
I'm just a comedian.
Lex Fridman (1:09:45.980)
This idea of I'm just a comedian.
Eric Weinstein (1:09:47.900)
We all do that.
Lex Fridman (1:09:49.420)
But at this moment in history,
Eric Weinstein (1:09:52.580)
like history literally can pivot
Lex Fridman (1:09:55.260)
on the words of a tattooed,
Eric Weinstein (1:10:01.060)
ripped 50 year old comedian.
Lex Fridman (1:10:04.300)
And I think the same is true with you.
Eric Weinstein (1:10:07.260)
Okay, well, I'm interested and I care.
Lex Fridman (1:10:10.420)
Speaking of lyrics,
Eric Weinstein (1:10:13.340)
there are many here among us
Lex Fridman (1:10:14.500)
who feel that life has been a joke.
Eric Weinstein (1:10:17.020)
That's not us.
Lex Fridman (1:10:18.420)
The hour is getting late.
Eric Weinstein (1:10:19.400)
That's not us.
Lex Fridman (1:10:20.820)
In the song, the joker and the thief
Eric Weinstein (1:10:23.300)
are on opposite sides of Jesus
Lex Fridman (1:10:24.740)
having this conversation over Jesus.
Eric Weinstein (1:10:27.580)
You and I, we've been through that.
Lex Fridman (1:10:28.940)
That's not our fate.
Eric Weinstein (1:10:29.940)
That's somebody else's fate
Lex Fridman (1:10:31.060)
to throw spitballs at the internet.
Eric Weinstein (1:10:33.440)
That's not your fate.
Lex Fridman (1:10:34.580)
You're an earnest guy.
Eric Weinstein (1:10:35.820)
You're filled with love.
Lex Fridman (1:10:36.780)
You're getting the most amazing podcasts.
Eric Weinstein (1:10:38.500)
Yes, you're broadcasting.
Lex Fridman (1:10:39.340)
But you can win over the internet.
Eric Weinstein (1:10:40.740)
This is the point I'm trying to make
Lex Fridman (1:10:42.180)
that you're saying I'm just a grandpa.
Eric Weinstein (1:10:44.780)
I don't get the internet.
Lex Fridman (1:10:45.620)
No, I'm telling you, you're gonna get bigger
Lex Fridman (1:10:47.220)
and then you're gonna get cut down.
Lex Fridman (1:10:49.240)
You're gonna keep ascending for a while, Lex.
Lex Fridman (1:10:52.020)
And then you're saying, and naturally there's a...
Lex Fridman (1:10:53.700)
I'm telling you, I watch the same process.
Eric Weinstein (1:10:55.740)
People get up to a certain level.
Lex Fridman (1:10:57.900)
And one of the things that's going on,
Eric Weinstein (1:10:59.180)
in my opinion, with Joe Rogan,
Lex Fridman (1:11:01.380)
is that when Joe Rogan starts to talk
Eric Weinstein (1:11:03.940)
about his misgivings about Joe Biden,
Lex Fridman (1:11:06.980)
in a way that you find at any bar in America,
Eric Weinstein (1:11:11.020)
about cognitive decline in a 77 year old
Lex Fridman (1:11:13.520)
who's about to be 78, I believe in November,
Eric Weinstein (1:11:16.420)
we have never had anything remotely as insane
Lex Fridman (1:11:20.300)
as a 78 year old person slated to win the White House.
Lex Fridman (1:11:26.020)
And you're saying when that idea is being communicated,
Lex Fridman (1:11:29.740)
is there something about the disc concept
Eric Weinstein (1:11:32.020)
that you talk about, the system naturally starts to...
Lex Fridman (1:11:33.660)
Some bad thing happens to Joe
Eric Weinstein (1:11:35.380)
or one of Joe's close associates.
Lex Fridman (1:11:38.480)
The ability to destroy people who become inconvenient
Eric Weinstein (1:11:42.820)
has been documented.
Lex Fridman (1:11:44.180)
This is what we have done in the past.
Eric Weinstein (1:11:47.240)
Whether we are doing it now, we don't know,
Lex Fridman (1:11:49.180)
because we are not doing this church committee too.
Eric Weinstein (1:11:53.000)
In order to know whether or not
Lex Fridman (1:11:54.560)
you are currently destroying American citizens
Eric Weinstein (1:11:57.080)
as we did in the past and as we have documented,
Lex Fridman (1:11:59.400)
as we found out in 1976,
Eric Weinstein (1:12:03.340)
the federal government destroyed Americans
Lex Fridman (1:12:05.600)
who had political beliefs
Eric Weinstein (1:12:07.480)
that the government didn't want to continue.
Lex Fridman (1:12:11.440)
And I don't know whether you are grasping that.
Eric Weinstein (1:12:14.920)
One interpretation of why Jon Stewart
Lex Fridman (1:12:18.000)
and why Joe Rogan and why Bill Maher,
Eric Weinstein (1:12:21.480)
all these people to some extent hide behind, it's a joke.
Lex Fridman (1:12:25.000)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (1:12:25.840)
It's because they're trying to find a protected class.
Lex Fridman (1:12:29.240)
Is there some place I can stand and speak the truth
Lex Fridman (1:12:32.720)
which does not result in my being garbage collected?
Lex Fridman (1:12:36.560)
Interesting.
Eric Weinstein (1:12:37.400)
I guess you're right.
Lex Fridman (1:12:38.440)
My intuition is you can stand, as you gain more power,
Eric Weinstein (1:12:43.280)
you can stand behind your words.
Lex Fridman (1:12:46.760)
There's a fight over Joe Rogan right now.
Eric Weinstein (1:12:49.640)
I mean, I've talked about it for a few years now.
Lex Fridman (1:12:52.780)
People did not understand how big that program was.
Eric Weinstein (1:12:55.600)
People didn't understand long form podcasting.
Lex Fridman (1:12:57.560)
I was derided by people who I think of as being very shrewd
Eric Weinstein (1:13:03.240)
for believing in these podcasts as a major force.
Lex Fridman (1:13:07.360)
And most of the people who derided me have said,
Lex Fridman (1:13:09.200)
wow, did I not get things?
Lex Fridman (1:13:11.400)
It's like if you started to propose,
Eric Weinstein (1:13:14.840)
you wanted to do the Sopranos
Lex Fridman (1:13:17.400)
in the era of 30 minute sitcoms.
Eric Weinstein (1:13:21.400)
Like, you don't get it, man.
Lex Fridman (1:13:22.800)
The American people, they're not interested
Eric Weinstein (1:13:24.480)
in these long plot storylines.
Lex Fridman (1:13:25.880)
That's your weird thing?
Eric Weinstein (1:13:27.160)
Nobody cares, dude.
Lex Fridman (1:13:28.840)
Everybody just wants short, fast, memorable.
Lex Fridman (1:13:31.880)
And like, okay, so if you do that,
Lex Fridman (1:13:33.960)
you totally miss the opportunity.
Lex Fridman (1:13:35.440)
And the savvy people used to say,
Lex Fridman (1:13:38.160)
kid, let me tell you, nobody ever lost a dime
Eric Weinstein (1:13:40.160)
underestimating the intelligence of the American people.
Lex Fridman (1:13:43.000)
Well, that was totally wrong
Eric Weinstein (1:13:44.200)
because they didn't calculate opportunity costs.
Lex Fridman (1:13:46.920)
I have been talking about the problem of Joe for a long time.
Eric Weinstein (1:13:51.560)
The problem is, is that when the system wakes up,
Lex Fridman (1:13:54.000)
they're gonna wanna control it.
Lex Fridman (1:13:56.480)
And they come up with new different mechanisms
Lex Fridman (1:13:58.960)
of doing that.
Eric Weinstein (1:13:59.880)
I guess one interesting one is cancel culture.
Lex Fridman (1:14:03.200)
Well, look at the number of people around Joe
Eric Weinstein (1:14:05.640)
who they've come after since they realized
Lex Fridman (1:14:07.520)
that Joe was really big.
Eric Weinstein (1:14:09.480)
Joey Diaz, Brian Callan, Chris Delia.
Lex Fridman (1:14:17.440)
Now, I'm not saying that those are all related,
Lex Fridman (1:14:22.960)
but I do notice that there are at least correlations
Lex Fridman (1:14:28.440)
between when Joe says something
Eric Weinstein (1:14:29.960)
when something bad happens in Joe's universe.
Lex Fridman (1:14:33.280)
It's easier for me to believe that that's happening
Eric Weinstein (1:14:36.280)
when it's happening around Joe himself.
Lex Fridman (1:14:40.240)
But I'm worried about my friend.
Lex Fridman (1:14:43.680)
And I don't necessarily wanna push him
Lex Fridman (1:14:46.640)
towards being more if he doesn't want it.
Eric Weinstein (1:14:48.800)
Because I don't wanna conscript people.
Lex Fridman (1:14:51.760)
He's got a great life.
Eric Weinstein (1:14:52.640)
He's got a great situation.
Lex Fridman (1:14:53.920)
He's done a huge service.
Eric Weinstein (1:14:56.200)
Thank God.
Lex Fridman (1:14:57.040)
How much do I owe Joe just for what he's done for you
Eric Weinstein (1:15:01.760)
to say nothing of what he's done for me
Lex Fridman (1:15:03.360)
or for Brett or for Sam or any of these people?
Lex Fridman (1:15:06.680)
And I'd like to think that we all try to give back,
Lex Fridman (1:15:10.640)
but I'm worried about Joe.
Eric Weinstein (1:15:13.800)
He's not worried.
Lex Fridman (1:15:15.080)
One of the inspiring things about Joe
Eric Weinstein (1:15:18.280)
is he's in this war alone.
Lex Fridman (1:15:21.520)
And the way he fights the war is by just enjoying life.
Eric Weinstein (1:15:25.800)
Well, that's his thing, as long as he stays close
Lex Fridman (1:15:27.960)
to things that he loves and being,
Eric Weinstein (1:15:30.000)
one of the things is he's honest about his drug use.
Lex Fridman (1:15:32.760)
He loves to hunt.
Lex Fridman (1:15:34.760)
So he's just, he does a certain amount
Lex Fridman (1:15:36.440)
of like semi vice signaling upfront.
Lex Fridman (1:15:40.320)
And then you just also know him.
Lex Fridman (1:15:41.520)
This is why every time they try to take him down,
Eric Weinstein (1:15:43.640)
you use the N word.
Lex Fridman (1:15:47.440)
Unfortunately, everybody knows who Joe is.
Lex Fridman (1:15:50.840)
And yes, he doesn't act as if he went to a fancy
Lex Fridman (1:15:55.840)
finishing school, right?
Eric Weinstein (1:15:58.440)
That's not his energy.
Lex Fridman (1:16:00.160)
The fact that you've got some super smart guy
Eric Weinstein (1:16:02.280)
who always pretends to be a meathead,
Lex Fridman (1:16:04.240)
just like, hey, I'm a comedian.
Eric Weinstein (1:16:06.640)
It's like all these defenses and disguises.
Lex Fridman (1:16:08.680)
Okay, you've got this super smart guy
Eric Weinstein (1:16:11.040)
who he's admitted to most of the things
Lex Fridman (1:16:14.440)
that you can take him down for.
Lex Fridman (1:16:17.040)
And because everybody's been effectively in his den
Lex Fridman (1:16:19.920)
his basement, think about that studio is his basement.
Eric Weinstein (1:16:23.000)
People have hung out with Joe so many hours
Lex Fridman (1:16:24.920)
that you can't tell them something about Joe
Eric Weinstein (1:16:26.800)
where they're gonna say, wow,
Lex Fridman (1:16:27.640)
I'm gonna believe the New York Times
Lex Fridman (1:16:28.800)
and not the hundreds of hours I've spent
Lex Fridman (1:16:31.080)
on the Joe Rogan experience.
Lex Fridman (1:16:32.040)
But the cool thing is that this is what inspires me
Lex Fridman (1:16:35.200)
is that the way he's waging war against the system,
Eric Weinstein (1:16:37.960)
it's just by being a good person
Lex Fridman (1:16:40.640)
and talking enough hours in a week
Eric Weinstein (1:16:44.640)
where that message like bleeds throughout the words
Lex Fridman (1:16:48.680)
and the gaps between.
Lex Fridman (1:16:49.920)
And that's so inspiring to me
Lex Fridman (1:16:51.880)
that the good people can win by just being good.
Lex Fridman (1:16:55.000)
And he's kind and he's tough.
Lex Fridman (1:16:57.680)
And he also, he's no pushover.
Eric Weinstein (1:17:01.880)
I always worry a little bit when I sit down in my chair.
Lex Fridman (1:17:05.400)
You still get scared that he'll call you
Lex Fridman (1:17:07.520)
on some kind of bullshit that you weren't even aware of?
Lex Fridman (1:17:09.640)
No, the first time I was on the show,
Eric Weinstein (1:17:12.160)
the energy wasn't great between us.
Lex Fridman (1:17:14.400)
And it was in a sober October situation.
Lex Fridman (1:17:16.520)
So I think I hadn't understood that
Lex Fridman (1:17:18.120)
and maybe our egos got a little bit off.
Eric Weinstein (1:17:22.960)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (1:17:23.800)
I mean, I was having fun,
Lex Fridman (1:17:25.440)
but maybe it was just too complicated life forms
Lex Fridman (1:17:28.640)
getting to know each other.
Eric Weinstein (1:17:29.560)
The first one was probably,
Lex Fridman (1:17:34.560)
yeah, that made me a little nervous for the future.
Lex Fridman (1:17:37.600)
But then, Joe and I have become friends,
Lex Fridman (1:17:40.480)
although sometimes we have miscommunications
Eric Weinstein (1:17:42.440)
like on Yom Kippur, I texted him and I said,
Lex Fridman (1:17:46.040)
Joe, I want to apologize for ways I've let you down
Eric Weinstein (1:17:50.120)
as a friend that haven't been there for you
Lex Fridman (1:17:51.920)
and appreciate everything you've done for me all this time.
Eric Weinstein (1:17:54.760)
Like I get this text back like,
Lex Fridman (1:17:56.360)
what the fuck is your problem?
Eric Weinstein (1:17:57.800)
You're great, dude.
Lex Fridman (1:18:00.000)
I don't know what bad place you're in, but cheer up.
Eric Weinstein (1:18:02.360)
It's like, Joe, don't you have any Jews in your life
Lex Fridman (1:18:04.640)
that apologize for what they've done?
Lex Fridman (1:18:07.640)
He was just like, dude, have you lost your mind?
Lex Fridman (1:18:09.600)
What the hell's gotten into you?
Lex Fridman (1:18:11.160)
Yeah, what do you think about the Spotify thing?
Lex Fridman (1:18:17.720)
What about it?
Eric Weinstein (1:18:18.560)
Ask me a question.
Lex Fridman (1:18:19.400)
He's now, as opposed to being just a comedian
Eric Weinstein (1:18:23.160)
with the podcast, he now is just a comedian
Lex Fridman (1:18:26.120)
with the podcast who stepped like in the middle
Eric Weinstein (1:18:28.840)
of the center of cancel culture,
Lex Fridman (1:18:31.400)
which is like, I know Spotify is in Sweden,
Lex Fridman (1:18:33.880)
but they represent Silicon Valley.
Lex Fridman (1:18:37.120)
They represent the very kind of structures.
Eric Weinstein (1:18:40.880)
They contain and represent the kind of structures
Lex Fridman (1:18:43.680)
that threatened to destroy the Elans of the world.
Lex Fridman (1:18:48.560)
And he just like stepped like with his Alex Jones
Lex Fridman (1:18:52.560)
and his Joey Diaz just strolled right into the middle of it.
Eric Weinstein (1:18:56.560)
Yeah, I think it's awesome.
Lex Fridman (1:18:58.920)
I love it.
Lex Fridman (1:18:59.920)
But do you think he's strong enough to, I don't know.
Lex Fridman (1:19:04.440)
I mean, I don't even know the right way to ask this,
Lex Fridman (1:19:06.400)
but is he strong enough to persevere?
Lex Fridman (1:19:08.960)
It's a bit interesting.
Eric Weinstein (1:19:10.040)
It's like when a lion decides, wow,
Lex Fridman (1:19:13.080)
that honey badger looks tasty.
Eric Weinstein (1:19:14.520)
I'm gonna swallow it whole, see what happens.
Lex Fridman (1:19:17.280)
Because I talked to him offline.
Eric Weinstein (1:19:18.880)
He really seems to be willing to give away the 100 million,
Lex Fridman (1:19:22.320)
which gives him so much power.
Eric Weinstein (1:19:24.100)
Oh, I don't, it's a powerful thing to be able to say,
Lex Fridman (1:19:29.320)
I don't, yeah, to the honey badger.
Eric Weinstein (1:19:33.240)
He just strolls in, but he's willing to walk away
Lex Fridman (1:19:35.500)
from anything in this world.
Eric Weinstein (1:19:36.340)
Well, he's gonna walk out the other side of the lion.
Lex Fridman (1:19:38.640)
I don't think he's gonna go out the way he came in.
Eric Weinstein (1:19:40.780)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:19:41.620)
Well, you know what it is?
Eric Weinstein (1:19:42.560)
It's Tommy Lee Jones entering the bug.
Lex Fridman (1:19:45.620)
This is like a giant alien, he just walks into it?
Eric Weinstein (1:19:47.920)
He just, he gets swallowed by the bug
Lex Fridman (1:19:49.760)
and he blasts out from the inside.
Eric Weinstein (1:19:52.020)
I have it as Tommy Lee Jones.
Lex Fridman (1:19:53.680)
Yeah, that's Joe Rogan to you.
Eric Weinstein (1:19:55.680)
Yeah, is that my feeling is that Spotify
Lex Fridman (1:19:58.040)
doesn't understand what they're messing with.
Eric Weinstein (1:19:59.600)
I could be wrong, but I'm not.
Lex Fridman (1:20:01.960)
No, you're right.
Eric Weinstein (1:20:02.800)
I'm right.
Lex Fridman (1:20:05.040)
Because Joe doesn't need anything, man.
Eric Weinstein (1:20:07.060)
I mean, this is the weird thing about it.
Lex Fridman (1:20:08.760)
It's like, I'm sure that he loves all his toys,
Eric Weinstein (1:20:10.480)
whatever, blah, blah, blah.
Lex Fridman (1:20:11.400)
He's a rich guy.
Eric Weinstein (1:20:12.700)
Yes, he's got a few money.
Lex Fridman (1:20:14.160)
He had a few money a long time ago.
Lex Fridman (1:20:16.680)
And you're not, you know, the other thing about,
Lex Fridman (1:20:21.220)
it's a bit weird being friends with a dude like that.
Eric Weinstein (1:20:23.680)
It just is.
Lex Fridman (1:20:24.520)
Cause like you call him up or he'll call you up
Lex Fridman (1:20:26.960)
and he's like, what's going on in your life?
Lex Fridman (1:20:29.200)
I don't know.
Eric Weinstein (1:20:30.100)
Kind of depressed, trying to get some math done.
Lex Fridman (1:20:32.000)
What are you up?
Eric Weinstein (1:20:33.480)
Oh dude, I can cheer you up.
Lex Fridman (1:20:34.720)
I just came off of a 29,000 person stadium.
Eric Weinstein (1:20:38.600)
It's like, oh cool.
Lex Fridman (1:20:40.000)
How'd you do that?
Eric Weinstein (1:20:40.840)
Oh, I don't know.
Lex Fridman (1:20:41.680)
I just announced it on Instagram a few days ago
Lex Fridman (1:20:43.280)
and it filled up.
Lex Fridman (1:20:44.560)
Just like, oh damn.
Eric Weinstein (1:20:47.760)
I mean, that thing is so powerful.
Lex Fridman (1:20:51.200)
So there you go.
Eric Weinstein (1:20:52.040)
I mean, you could be that too.
Lex Fridman (1:20:54.360)
The instant Joe takes an interest in politics
Lex Fridman (1:20:57.440)
and saving the world.
Lex Fridman (1:20:58.280)
You might destroy all of that.
Eric Weinstein (1:20:59.780)
It's going bye bye.
Lex Fridman (1:21:01.360)
I promise you.
Eric Weinstein (1:21:02.200)
I just disagree with you.
Lex Fridman (1:21:04.040)
I mean, cause you have to do it.
Eric Weinstein (1:21:05.960)
Like you've said this many times before.
Lex Fridman (1:21:07.760)
I'll bet you, I'll bet you a bottle of Stoli
Eric Weinstein (1:21:11.720)
that you can get, if you get Joe Rogan
Lex Fridman (1:21:14.840)
to get highly politically active
Lex Fridman (1:21:16.440)
and call out the system for all the bullshit that it is
Lex Fridman (1:21:18.940)
in a very pointed and determined fashion
Lex Fridman (1:21:23.560)
and he doesn't get destroyed, I'll give you the vodka.
Lex Fridman (1:21:26.300)
The vodka?
Eric Weinstein (1:21:27.140)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:21:27.960)
That sounds like a pretty damn good deal.
Lex Fridman (1:21:29.880)
But you've said this, I mean.
Lex Fridman (1:21:32.320)
No living heroes, my friend, no living heroes.
Eric Weinstein (1:21:36.800)
I just.
Lex Fridman (1:21:37.680)
No living heroes.
Eric Weinstein (1:21:39.320)
It's just difficult.
Lex Fridman (1:21:40.800)
You just have to be good at it.
Eric Weinstein (1:21:42.360)
I mean, if you just say generic political things.
Lex Fridman (1:21:45.000)
No, no.
Eric Weinstein (1:21:46.800)
You're going to be taken down.
Lex Fridman (1:21:48.120)
But if you're. The more heroic you are,
Eric Weinstein (1:21:50.200)
the more beautiful you are,
Lex Fridman (1:21:52.580)
the more you will be made to suffer.
Eric Weinstein (1:21:54.840)
If they cannot get you on reputation.
Lex Fridman (1:21:56.600)
If Jesus himself came down.
Eric Weinstein (1:21:59.040)
I don't know if I ever read.
Lex Fridman (1:22:00.540)
I probably have never read to you the hit piece
Eric Weinstein (1:22:02.680)
I did on Jesus.
Lex Fridman (1:22:04.620)
You don't know about this?
Eric Weinstein (1:22:05.460)
No, I did not know.
Lex Fridman (1:22:06.300)
I did hit pieces on all of the best people in the world.
Eric Weinstein (1:22:09.860)
Wow.
Lex Fridman (1:22:11.020)
So whoever it was who cured cancer,
Eric Weinstein (1:22:14.120)
discovered new particles or whatever it is,
Lex Fridman (1:22:16.840)
I did a hit piece against them to prove
Eric Weinstein (1:22:18.600)
that I can do it to anybody around anything at any time.
Lex Fridman (1:22:22.680)
Except Eddie Van Halen is what we're talking about.
Eric Weinstein (1:22:24.840)
Well, Eddie Van Halen is now dead.
Lex Fridman (1:22:26.600)
But if this was a situation, you know, hot for teacher,
Eric Weinstein (1:22:32.240)
canceled.
Lex Fridman (1:22:33.760)
Disrespectful.
Eric Weinstein (1:22:35.040)
Absolutely.
Lex Fridman (1:22:38.440)
Also, you know, packaging female objectification
Eric Weinstein (1:22:43.840)
for young men.
Lex Fridman (1:22:44.880)
Clearly Eddie Van Halen is one of the worst people alive.
Lex Fridman (1:22:47.660)
But the skill, the incredible inspiration
Lex Fridman (1:22:53.100)
that is just radiating from his music
Eric Weinstein (1:22:55.740)
inspires so many millions
Lex Fridman (1:22:57.240)
that they will fight those canceled pieces.
Eric Weinstein (1:23:00.040)
This is your thing.
Lex Fridman (1:23:01.240)
You have this idea that there's a war between good and evil
Lex Fridman (1:23:03.620)
and the good has already been designated the winner.
Lex Fridman (1:23:06.960)
And it's not true.
Lex Fridman (1:23:08.360)
But your belief that it's true.
Lex Fridman (1:23:11.520)
Fake it till you make it, no?
Eric Weinstein (1:23:13.040)
I mean, you gotta, it's motivating both of us.
Lex Fridman (1:23:16.560)
Like I also believe that we're gonna win
Eric Weinstein (1:23:18.500)
because if I don't, then I can't get out of bed
Lex Fridman (1:23:20.220)
and it's pretty heavy at the moment.
Lex Fridman (1:23:22.100)
Do you think 2021 can make us feel good
Lex Fridman (1:23:28.740)
about the trajectory of society?
Lex Fridman (1:23:31.120)
So like where we emerge from this year feeling good.
Lex Fridman (1:23:36.040)
Like there's a smile on Eric Weinstein's face
Lex Fridman (1:23:38.520)
and the next time we talk,
Lex Fridman (1:23:40.360)
we'll be doing some kind of duet on guitar
Lex Fridman (1:23:42.780)
and not having this worried look on our faces.
Lex Fridman (1:23:47.600)
No.
Eric Weinstein (1:23:49.800)
Okay, but you've also promised
Lex Fridman (1:23:51.480)
you're going to somehow end this in a positive.
Lex Fridman (1:23:54.840)
Okay, so how do you turn the no around?
Lex Fridman (1:23:57.640)
What's the U turn from the no?
Eric Weinstein (1:23:59.360)
Until we get some actually decent people
Lex Fridman (1:24:03.060)
in the right chairs who are not constantly thinking
Eric Weinstein (1:24:06.240)
about their next paycheck, I don't see a solution.
Lex Fridman (1:24:10.480)
Let me just say what the prerequisites for a solution are
Lex Fridman (1:24:13.280)
and to let you know why I don't think it's coming.
Lex Fridman (1:24:18.520)
First of all, both of these political parties,
Eric Weinstein (1:24:21.360)
the leadership of them is disgusting and has to go.
Lex Fridman (1:24:24.580)
They're tearing us apart.
Eric Weinstein (1:24:26.620)
They lack the will to be Americans.
Lex Fridman (1:24:28.900)
They don't understand the subtlety of the project.
Eric Weinstein (1:24:32.200)
They're simply the people who figured out
Lex Fridman (1:24:34.080)
how to inhabit the seats and that is their great achievement.
Eric Weinstein (1:24:41.120)
I believe that in order to solve this,
Lex Fridman (1:24:43.780)
you need people who can integrate,
Eric Weinstein (1:24:45.280)
who are not partisan at the level
Lex Fridman (1:24:47.520)
of the partisan warriors that we're seeing,
Eric Weinstein (1:24:50.040)
people who believe in dividing the pies of the future
Lex Fridman (1:24:52.560)
rather than the present pie as our main task as Americans
Eric Weinstein (1:24:56.320)
because we are built around growth.
Lex Fridman (1:24:58.000)
I'm sorry to say it.
Eric Weinstein (1:25:02.760)
You need an ability to have subtle conversations
Lex Fridman (1:25:06.160)
and you need the ability to exclude.
Lex Fridman (1:25:09.080)
And at the moment, everyone knows inclusion is good,
Lex Fridman (1:25:13.280)
which it isn't.
Eric Weinstein (1:25:14.480)
It's like saying, well, water is good.
Lex Fridman (1:25:16.200)
If I say water is good, everybody will agree with me.
Eric Weinstein (1:25:18.780)
It's not, people drown.
Lex Fridman (1:25:22.340)
People need to get dehydrated.
Eric Weinstein (1:25:24.600)
It can be life saving or life ending.
Lex Fridman (1:25:26.760)
It isn't good or bad.
Eric Weinstein (1:25:28.440)
Inclusion is not good or bad.
Lex Fridman (1:25:30.320)
Inclusion is just inclusion.
Eric Weinstein (1:25:31.720)
Exclusion is part of inclusion.
Lex Fridman (1:25:34.580)
We've taught people that they can reason through the world
Eric Weinstein (1:25:38.920)
as sub cocker spaniels.
Lex Fridman (1:25:43.840)
They just bark things at each other.
Eric Weinstein (1:25:45.840)
I'm for safety.
Lex Fridman (1:25:48.480)
I'm for inclusion.
Eric Weinstein (1:25:49.720)
I'm for growth.
Lex Fridman (1:25:51.080)
Oh, really?
Lex Fridman (1:25:52.520)
Do you guys use verbs, dependent clauses?
Lex Fridman (1:25:55.600)
Are there compound complex sentences?
Lex Fridman (1:25:57.280)
Where are we in this sea of nonsense?
Lex Fridman (1:26:01.000)
You have to be able to build a place
Eric Weinstein (1:26:03.940)
where you have smart, talented people
Lex Fridman (1:26:06.400)
who represent a diverse group of correct opinions.
Eric Weinstein (1:26:10.700)
You need to get rid of almost all of the people
Lex Fridman (1:26:13.200)
who have opinions that are antithetical
Eric Weinstein (1:26:15.200)
to what we're trying to accomplish.
Lex Fridman (1:26:17.660)
You need to give them insulation, which we're terrified
Eric Weinstein (1:26:20.680)
because we don't trust anybody.
Lex Fridman (1:26:21.820)
So everything has to be transparent.
Eric Weinstein (1:26:23.320)
If you're going to the bathroom,
Lex Fridman (1:26:24.280)
I want those walls to be plexiglass
Lex Fridman (1:26:25.800)
so I can see what you're doing.
Lex Fridman (1:26:27.000)
It's like, that's too much transparency.
Eric Weinstein (1:26:29.300)
We have too much and not enough at the same time.
Lex Fridman (1:26:32.200)
And then in essence, you need to ensure
Eric Weinstein (1:26:36.640)
that people aren't worried about feeding their family
Lex Fridman (1:26:39.200)
every four seconds for being real.
Eric Weinstein (1:26:41.960)
None of that is happening.
Lex Fridman (1:26:43.540)
And our billionaires, our billionaires are pathetic.
Lex Fridman (1:26:47.240)
What is the point of billionaires
Lex Fridman (1:26:48.960)
if you're not going to do billionaire type cool stuff
Eric Weinstein (1:26:52.000)
like saying, F you, and I'm going to throw $3 billion
Lex Fridman (1:26:57.720)
at the project of restoring the national conversation?
Eric Weinstein (1:27:05.220)
I don't grasp this.
Lex Fridman (1:27:06.740)
What is the point of creating obscene wealth
Eric Weinstein (1:27:09.040)
if we don't have anyone smart enough
Lex Fridman (1:27:10.500)
and caring enough to use it?
Lex Fridman (1:27:12.840)
So I agree with that last part for sure.
Lex Fridman (1:27:16.120)
Let me slightly push back on the idea
Eric Weinstein (1:27:20.440)
that the leaders themselves are broken.
Lex Fridman (1:27:22.800)
I feel like this goes to the Joe Rogan,
Eric Weinstein (1:27:28.200)
Joe Biden and Trump having a debate on that program.
Lex Fridman (1:27:31.880)
I feel like Joe Biden has a lot of really interesting ideas
Eric Weinstein (1:27:38.120)
that he's almost forgot how to communicate.
Lex Fridman (1:27:40.600)
He's been fake for so long within the system.
Eric Weinstein (1:27:44.080)
Hillary was fake for too long.
Lex Fridman (1:27:45.480)
I'm sure she had real ideas at the beginning
Eric Weinstein (1:27:47.480)
that she still was campaigning on decades later.
Lex Fridman (1:27:50.600)
But if the system, if the platforms empowered you
Eric Weinstein (1:27:54.920)
to search, to be honest, to be real,
Lex Fridman (1:27:56.760)
to search for those ideas within yourself,
Eric Weinstein (1:27:59.560)
like long form conversations do,
Lex Fridman (1:28:02.600)
then even the Donald Trump and Joe Biden leaders
Eric Weinstein (1:28:05.880)
we have now would take this country to a better place
Lex Fridman (1:28:10.640)
that would unite people.
Lex Fridman (1:28:12.840)
So like, we can keep the current Congress.
Lex Fridman (1:28:15.440)
We just need to create better platforms.
Eric Weinstein (1:28:17.680)
This is going to the intuition
Lex Fridman (1:28:19.080)
that there's good in Donald Trump.
Eric Weinstein (1:28:21.400)
There's depth and complexity and intelligence.
Lex Fridman (1:28:24.760)
And the same with Joe Biden.
Eric Weinstein (1:28:26.240)
There's good in Joe Biden.
Lex Fridman (1:28:28.060)
And it's just, we're not incentivizing.
Eric Weinstein (1:28:32.840)
I mean, there's several things I think are broken.
Lex Fridman (1:28:35.000)
One of them is Twitter.
Eric Weinstein (1:28:36.320)
The other is journalism.
Lex Fridman (1:28:38.080)
It's just the platforms of us communicating with each other.
Eric Weinstein (1:28:41.480)
One of the reasons that I try to come up
Lex Fridman (1:28:43.240)
with unifying explanations is that,
Eric Weinstein (1:28:46.760)
if you look at the number of wildfires in California,
Lex Fridman (1:28:49.640)
let's say, that we've just seen,
Eric Weinstein (1:28:51.920)
if you treat them all as spontaneous,
Lex Fridman (1:28:53.800)
uncorrelated instances, it feels like,
Eric Weinstein (1:28:57.000)
oh my God, it's just whack a mole.
Lex Fridman (1:28:58.640)
Every time I send a fire truck here,
Eric Weinstein (1:29:00.620)
there's a fire over there.
Lex Fridman (1:29:02.100)
So you want to come up with something
Eric Weinstein (1:29:03.640)
like a central theory, which is,
Lex Fridman (1:29:06.400)
why do I suddenly have a problem
Lex Fridman (1:29:07.840)
when I hadn't had a problem before?
Lex Fridman (1:29:09.960)
So I look for these unifying explanations.
Lex Fridman (1:29:12.560)
And I found one the other day that really speaks to me.
Lex Fridman (1:29:16.920)
I mean, people are very frustrated
Eric Weinstein (1:29:18.200)
because they've been trained to think about this
Lex Fridman (1:29:20.140)
incorrectly, in my opinion.
Lex Fridman (1:29:21.960)
But here's the graph that you need to look at.
Lex Fridman (1:29:25.160)
On the x axis is time by year.
Lex Fridman (1:29:29.560)
And on the y axis is something like average age of a human.
Lex Fridman (1:29:37.040)
The title of the graph is any desirable situation
Eric Weinstein (1:29:40.120)
involving institutions.
Lex Fridman (1:29:44.600)
So that could be CEO, it could be tenured professor.
Eric Weinstein (1:29:50.320)
It could be who's getting grants.
Lex Fridman (1:29:53.480)
It could be the age at which people win Nobel Prizes.
Eric Weinstein (1:30:01.360)
University presidents, all these things go up.
Lex Fridman (1:30:05.560)
In other words, for a long period of time,
Eric Weinstein (1:30:08.440)
the average age of the person in a desirable situation
Lex Fridman (1:30:12.440)
has been increasing something like nine months for every 12.
Eric Weinstein (1:30:19.100)
Those graphs have to go down at some point.
Lex Fridman (1:30:22.080)
The specter of having five people all born in the 1940s
Eric Weinstein (1:30:28.160)
as the final entrance in the presidential context,
Lex Fridman (1:30:34.520)
that makes no sense.
Eric Weinstein (1:30:36.300)
Think about how bizarre a thing
Lex Fridman (1:30:38.540)
that nobody's even really talking about.
Eric Weinstein (1:30:40.420)
The last five people were all ancient
Lex Fridman (1:30:45.720)
by presidential standards.
Eric Weinstein (1:30:47.060)
Not one, not two, but five.
Lex Fridman (1:30:49.600)
We are talking about a contest between somebody
Eric Weinstein (1:30:54.020)
who is the oldest of the baby boomers,
Lex Fridman (1:30:57.660)
the very beginning of the baby boom,
Eric Weinstein (1:30:58.900)
summer of 46th birthday, fighting somebody
Lex Fridman (1:31:02.700)
who is in the silent generation.
Eric Weinstein (1:31:05.060)
The silent generation guy in a town hall in Florida
Lex Fridman (1:31:08.800)
gets this question from a Gen Z guy saying,
Lex Fridman (1:31:12.640)
what's going on with my future?
Lex Fridman (1:31:14.100)
Joe Biden has the audacity to say,
Eric Weinstein (1:31:18.220)
I'm a transitional president.
Lex Fridman (1:31:20.020)
You guys are the highly educated one.
Eric Weinstein (1:31:22.860)
When has any generation in history needed
Lex Fridman (1:31:25.500)
a transitional 78 year old person to take office?
Eric Weinstein (1:31:29.420)
It's bizarre, it's preposterous.
Lex Fridman (1:31:31.300)
That graph is the graph we can't talk about.
Eric Weinstein (1:31:35.180)
That graph is the graph of our destruction.
Lex Fridman (1:31:39.580)
Because it has the, you can make a one line argument,
Eric Weinstein (1:31:44.580)
which sounds like ageism, which isn't a very good argument.
Lex Fridman (1:31:50.380)
No.
Lex Fridman (1:31:51.220)
But what it does is, is it muddles the conversation.
Lex Fridman (1:31:54.580)
And you always have to ask yourself the question,
Eric Weinstein (1:31:56.680)
if this conversation becomes muddled,
Lex Fridman (1:31:58.700)
who wins as a result of the muddling?
Eric Weinstein (1:32:01.440)
Well, it's a battle, but let's just win it.
Lex Fridman (1:32:04.140)
Let's win the battle.
Eric Weinstein (1:32:05.420)
You give.
Lex Fridman (1:32:06.260)
Are you running?
Eric Weinstein (1:32:07.380)
For sure, I'll run.
Lex Fridman (1:32:09.340)
I was born in Russia, can't run.
Eric Weinstein (1:32:11.140)
So, but we Russians can hack elections,
Lex Fridman (1:32:13.860)
so we'll figure it out.
Eric Weinstein (1:32:15.660)
This is me officially announcing my run for president.
Lex Fridman (1:32:17.660)
I was born in St. Petersburg, Florida.
Eric Weinstein (1:32:23.100)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:32:23.940)
Lex, what is it that you really wanna ask?
Eric Weinstein (1:32:25.820)
I think, I wanna put some responsibility on the portal.
Lex Fridman (1:32:30.060)
The portal.
Eric Weinstein (1:32:31.060)
The portal.
Lex Fridman (1:32:32.740)
That the portal gives power to the people in that graph.
Eric Weinstein (1:32:38.980)
Like, cause you put it quite brilliantly
Lex Fridman (1:32:41.140)
that the people that move the world,
Eric Weinstein (1:32:44.700)
their age has been going up.
Lex Fridman (1:32:47.080)
And not move the world, but put in the position
Eric Weinstein (1:32:49.780)
where they get the chance to affect the world.
Lex Fridman (1:32:54.160)
These new platforms, I think Twitter falls in them,
Eric Weinstein (1:32:57.760)
give power to the younger people.
Lex Fridman (1:33:00.300)
It doesn't have to be about age necessarily,
Lex Fridman (1:33:01.980)
but the younger thinking people.
Lex Fridman (1:33:04.140)
So that's a promising thing.
Lex Fridman (1:33:06.740)
And you are like, you're like Gandalf.
Lex Fridman (1:33:09.220)
You get to pick your Frodo's or whatever.
Eric Weinstein (1:33:11.900)
I'm not very good with the analogy,
Lex Fridman (1:33:14.140)
but the whole point is for you as Gandalf.
Eric Weinstein (1:33:16.180)
I don't know that I make that much sense.
Lex Fridman (1:33:18.100)
Gandalf makes sense.
Eric Weinstein (1:33:20.020)
I don't know if people know how to fit me
Lex Fridman (1:33:22.340)
into this ecosystem.
Eric Weinstein (1:33:24.940)
I think there's something in my presentation
Lex Fridman (1:33:26.420)
that people find very confusing.
Eric Weinstein (1:33:27.660)
No, figure it out.
Lex Fridman (1:33:28.500)
I disagree with you, but you need to look at the mirror
Lex Fridman (1:33:30.900)
and think like, what is it?
Lex Fridman (1:33:32.960)
Is it, maybe you need a mustache.
Eric Weinstein (1:33:36.100)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (1:33:36.940)
But there's something about figuring out
Lex Fridman (1:33:41.900)
how to be a charismatic communicator in this.
Lex Fridman (1:33:43.740)
And that's the responsibility.
Eric Weinstein (1:33:45.220)
You said like finishing sentences with the LOL
Lex Fridman (1:33:48.620)
is painful for your soul.
Eric Weinstein (1:33:50.060)
Yeah, that's just how somebody lets me know.
Lex Fridman (1:33:52.140)
I don't have to take their opinion seriously.
Eric Weinstein (1:33:54.540)
Yeah, it's still the language,
Lex Fridman (1:33:55.920)
the way that people are communicating
Lex Fridman (1:33:58.340)
and you're swimming that wave.
Lex Fridman (1:33:59.480)
You have a big platform.
Eric Weinstein (1:34:01.500)
I have a growing platform.
Lex Fridman (1:34:02.660)
It feels like this is the place to give power.
Eric Weinstein (1:34:05.260)
I agree, but we're gonna get swatted down.
Lex Fridman (1:34:07.460)
I just don't think so.
Eric Weinstein (1:34:08.520)
You're wrong.
Lex Fridman (1:34:09.360)
Why are you afraid of the big?
Eric Weinstein (1:34:10.820)
Like this is, I've studied it.
Lex Fridman (1:34:13.100)
Because I've studied, let me ask you a question, Lex.
Eric Weinstein (1:34:18.880)
I believe that every society is supposed to have
Lex Fridman (1:34:21.820)
a collection of what I call break glass
Eric Weinstein (1:34:25.500)
in case of emergency people.
Lex Fridman (1:34:28.080)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (1:34:29.560)
These are people who are universally loved
Lex Fridman (1:34:31.540)
and trusted by your society.
Eric Weinstein (1:34:33.060)
For example, David Attenborough,
Lex Fridman (1:34:35.500)
the great British naturalist and presenter,
Eric Weinstein (1:34:39.300)
recently came on Instagram.
Lex Fridman (1:34:40.620)
He's worried about the planet.
Lex Fridman (1:34:43.100)
And I said, look, there are very few of these people left.
Lex Fridman (1:34:46.540)
Let's pay attention, find out what he has to say.
Eric Weinstein (1:34:48.380)
Maybe he's gonna be an ass.
Lex Fridman (1:34:49.660)
Maybe he's gonna be in it.
Eric Weinstein (1:34:50.500)
Maybe he's gonna say wrong things, don't know.
Lex Fridman (1:34:52.620)
Tell me about your top 10 universal American heroes.
Eric Weinstein (1:34:57.220)
This is not a rhetorical question.
Lex Fridman (1:34:58.860)
No.
Eric Weinstein (1:35:00.420)
Give me five.
Lex Fridman (1:35:02.000)
Okay, everybody looks to that person and says,
Eric Weinstein (1:35:03.900)
yep, the best of us.
Lex Fridman (1:35:06.640)
Probably follow that person.
Eric Weinstein (1:35:08.740)
Well, everybody's an interesting concept.
Lex Fridman (1:35:11.500)
I mean, Elon Musk is very divisive, right?
Lex Fridman (1:35:14.660)
But I'm talking about overwhelmingly people
Lex Fridman (1:35:16.940)
would follow that person if that person gave a rousing,
Eric Weinstein (1:35:21.580)
intelligent speech that said, we must act now
Lex Fridman (1:35:25.660)
because we're in dire straits.
Eric Weinstein (1:35:28.440)
I think a lot of people fall in that category.
Lex Fridman (1:35:30.000)
For me, it would be in the tech world,
Eric Weinstein (1:35:33.940)
in the engineering world.
Lex Fridman (1:35:34.780)
No, no, no, no, no.
Lex Fridman (1:35:35.620)
Tell me his names.
Lex Fridman (1:35:36.440)
Elon Musk.
Eric Weinstein (1:35:37.280)
Elon Musk.
Lex Fridman (1:35:41.200)
The Rock.
Lex Fridman (1:35:43.440)
I'm thinking like, who is the most eloquent actor?
Lex Fridman (1:35:45.860)
So like, you think celebrities, so people with platforms.
Eric Weinstein (1:35:48.340)
I didn't say celebrities, but you have to be well known.
Lex Fridman (1:35:50.140)
I believe like, yeah, so this goes to Joe Rogan.
Eric Weinstein (1:35:55.140)
Hmm.
Lex Fridman (1:35:59.580)
First two did not really impress me
Eric Weinstein (1:36:02.100)
as being what I said, but okay.
Lex Fridman (1:36:05.780)
Elon several years ago would have.
Lex Fridman (1:36:08.220)
Can you try to?
Lex Fridman (1:36:10.300)
Joe Rogan has.
Lex Fridman (1:36:11.420)
Why do they fail?
Lex Fridman (1:36:12.300)
Why does Elon fail?
Eric Weinstein (1:36:13.380)
Lots of people treat Joe Rogan
Lex Fridman (1:36:14.940)
as if he's some sort of right wing racist
Eric Weinstein (1:36:17.500)
because they've never watched his program.
Lex Fridman (1:36:19.640)
They don't know who his friends are.
Eric Weinstein (1:36:20.660)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (1:36:22.020)
Oh, but when I thought you said everybody,
Eric Weinstein (1:36:24.820)
I thought you meant a large enough people
Lex Fridman (1:36:29.180)
where a huge change can happen,
Eric Weinstein (1:36:31.120)
not actually literally everybody.
Lex Fridman (1:36:33.580)
Because I think.
Eric Weinstein (1:36:34.420)
I mean people who've pulled off,
Lex Fridman (1:36:35.680)
like people who've pulled off something
Eric Weinstein (1:36:38.520)
where everybody's convinced that that person just deeply.
Lex Fridman (1:36:44.460)
I mean, I think I've told you this story before,
Lex Fridman (1:36:47.020)
but the one time I've seen the power of a figure like this,
Lex Fridman (1:36:52.020)
I mean, very few times I've been in a large crowd
Lex Fridman (1:36:55.320)
and I've seen people just moved
Lex Fridman (1:36:57.600)
where they would do almost anything good,
Eric Weinstein (1:36:59.280)
bad and different because they were primed.
Lex Fridman (1:37:03.880)
One was a Rolling Stones concert.
Eric Weinstein (1:37:06.440)
The other one was Nelson Mandela coming to Boston.
Lex Fridman (1:37:10.880)
And man, you've never seen anything like this.
Eric Weinstein (1:37:13.760)
You check out the photos from the banks
Lex Fridman (1:37:15.360)
of the Charles River when Nelson Mandela came.
Eric Weinstein (1:37:18.200)
There are people that you need in your dark hours
Lex Fridman (1:37:24.720)
and we can't agree on who they are.
Lex Fridman (1:37:26.080)
And as soon as they emerge, we tar them with shit.
Lex Fridman (1:37:29.360)
We get out the shit branch.
Eric Weinstein (1:37:31.380)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:37:32.220)
I just disagree with you.
Lex Fridman (1:37:33.040)
So I think.
Lex Fridman (1:37:33.880)
What do we disagree about here?
Eric Weinstein (1:37:35.680)
I think it doesn't matter who it is.
Lex Fridman (1:37:37.520)
I think really good speeches are needed.
Lex Fridman (1:37:40.560)
And I think a lot.
Lex Fridman (1:37:41.400)
Who's gonna give them?
Eric Weinstein (1:37:42.580)
I saw Killer Mike try to give a good speech.
Lex Fridman (1:37:44.320)
Yeah, he did.
Eric Weinstein (1:37:45.160)
Wow.
Lex Fridman (1:37:46.000)
In Atlanta, right?
Eric Weinstein (1:37:46.960)
Yeah, he did.
Lex Fridman (1:37:47.800)
That was something.
Eric Weinstein (1:37:49.320)
Very impressed.
Lex Fridman (1:37:50.260)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (1:37:51.100)
Even Killer Mike immediately gets into this.
Lex Fridman (1:37:54.040)
Sell out.
Eric Weinstein (1:37:57.480)
Yeah, but he didn't take up the responsibility.
Lex Fridman (1:38:01.140)
I would say.
Eric Weinstein (1:38:02.080)
He didn't.
Lex Fridman (1:38:02.920)
Of going bigger.
Lex Fridman (1:38:05.820)
So he was speaking to the community.
Lex Fridman (1:38:07.700)
And he was doing what he.
Eric Weinstein (1:38:08.540)
On this particular moment, he's exceptional at it.
Lex Fridman (1:38:11.240)
And he was speaking to this particular moment.
Eric Weinstein (1:38:13.640)
He didn't take it a step farther,
Lex Fridman (1:38:16.200)
which is like giving the same speech,
Lex Fridman (1:38:21.320)
but bigger than race.
Lex Fridman (1:38:23.200)
Bigger than this particular moment,
Lex Fridman (1:38:25.900)
but more about the American project.
Lex Fridman (1:38:29.420)
You know the guy who landed the plane in the Hudson?
Eric Weinstein (1:38:31.640)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (1:38:32.480)
Yeah, there you go.
Eric Weinstein (1:38:33.320)
That's a good example.
Lex Fridman (1:38:34.140)
So that guy until we screw him up
Eric Weinstein (1:38:38.380)
is the kind of thing that I'm talking about.
Lex Fridman (1:38:40.240)
Yeah, exactly.
Eric Weinstein (1:38:41.160)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:38:42.000)
I mean, Jaco, maybe that's another.
Eric Weinstein (1:38:43.520)
Jaco's pretty good.
Lex Fridman (1:38:44.600)
Can't really tell.
Lex Fridman (1:38:45.440)
Is he a Democrat?
Lex Fridman (1:38:46.260)
Is he a Republican?
Eric Weinstein (1:38:47.100)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (1:38:47.920)
He's an American.
Eric Weinstein (1:38:48.760)
That's for damn sure.
Lex Fridman (1:38:49.600)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:38:50.420)
And I think there's a lot of folks.
Lex Fridman (1:38:51.260)
And then, you know.
Eric Weinstein (1:38:52.600)
No, I think Jaco, there aren't.
Lex Fridman (1:38:54.440)
That's one of the reasons why Jaco's so special.
Eric Weinstein (1:38:56.280)
That's so important.
Lex Fridman (1:38:57.120)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (1:38:57.940)
Your podcast, The Portal, is something in my little universe
Lex Fridman (1:39:03.840)
is something a lot of people really love.
Lex Fridman (1:39:06.920)
And it moves them.
Lex Fridman (1:39:08.440)
They draw a lot of meaning from it.
Lex Fridman (1:39:11.080)
And also, especially in difficult times.
Lex Fridman (1:39:16.760)
It gives them a comfort of through like this kind of,
Eric Weinstein (1:39:21.760)
it's not just nuance.
Lex Fridman (1:39:23.000)
There's like, even when you're talking about chaos,
Eric Weinstein (1:39:27.000)
there's love underneath all of it.
Lex Fridman (1:39:28.880)
And I think people would draw a lot of meaning from it,
Eric Weinstein (1:39:30.880)
which is why they are wondering why you haven't been doing
Lex Fridman (1:39:35.880)
I'm wondering why you haven't been doing that many podcasts
Eric Weinstein (1:39:42.360)
or you haven't done it in maybe a month and a half
Lex Fridman (1:39:45.240)
or two months in this most difficult of times.
Lex Fridman (1:39:49.360)
Is there a good reason?
Lex Fridman (1:39:52.420)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (1:39:53.560)
There are lots of good reasons.
Lex Fridman (1:39:56.560)
So the first one is kind of weird,
Eric Weinstein (1:39:58.580)
which is everybody assumes that everyone wants to be famous.
Lex Fridman (1:40:01.480)
And if you say, I don't want to be famous,
Eric Weinstein (1:40:05.840)
it's like, oh, you're just saying that
Lex Fridman (1:40:06.920)
because you want to be everyone to think you're famous.
Eric Weinstein (1:40:09.120)
You're not that famous.
Lex Fridman (1:40:09.960)
You know, okay.
Eric Weinstein (1:40:12.760)
I don't love being as well known as I've become.
Lex Fridman (1:40:19.840)
There's lots of things that are fun about it.
Eric Weinstein (1:40:21.400)
It's wonderful that you can go to,
Lex Fridman (1:40:23.080)
I can go to any city in the world
Lex Fridman (1:40:24.400)
and there are portal listeners there.
Lex Fridman (1:40:27.000)
All I need to do is put out a tweet
Lex Fridman (1:40:28.720)
and 20 people show up for a drink.
Lex Fridman (1:40:30.760)
And they're amazing people.
Lex Fridman (1:40:31.760)
And they're almost, I mean, you can see my live Q and A's
Lex Fridman (1:40:36.240)
on my Instagram page.
Eric Weinstein (1:40:37.440)
If you go to Eric R. Weinstein,
Lex Fridman (1:40:38.800)
I just pick somebody randomly
Lex Fridman (1:40:40.440)
and I was really worried about it at first.
Lex Fridman (1:40:43.080)
And you know, maybe I should be worried about it,
Lex Fridman (1:40:45.560)
but in general, people all over the world
Lex Fridman (1:40:47.880)
are just so positive.
Lex Fridman (1:40:49.080)
And so, you know.
Lex Fridman (1:40:51.380)
And thoughtful and have a story that's kind of self selected.
Lex Fridman (1:40:55.160)
Right?
Lex Fridman (1:40:56.000)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:40:56.820)
But I don't like the fame.
Lex Fridman (1:40:58.080)
The thing we just described comes with the fame.
Eric Weinstein (1:41:00.220)
It's a beautiful thing.
Lex Fridman (1:41:01.320)
You know, you're worried that it's getting.
Eric Weinstein (1:41:03.680)
It's ephemeral.
Lex Fridman (1:41:04.520)
It'll, look Lex, it'll turn on you in a heartbeat.
Eric Weinstein (1:41:09.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:41:10.080)
It'll turn on you in a heartbeat.
Lex Fridman (1:41:11.760)
And the other problem is I don't,
Lex Fridman (1:41:14.480)
I don't like my audience being my audience.
Eric Weinstein (1:41:16.940)
I want to get closer to them.
Lex Fridman (1:41:18.080)
I want to talk to them.
Lex Fridman (1:41:18.960)
I want to find out what is this doing in your life?
Lex Fridman (1:41:21.040)
My house fills up with art that people send me.
Eric Weinstein (1:41:24.720)
The lightest thing is an effects pedal
Lex Fridman (1:41:27.360)
called something like, I don't know,
Lex Fridman (1:41:28.760)
bow tie overdrive from a guy in Mexico, right?
Lex Fridman (1:41:33.120)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (1:41:33.960)
You play electric, by the way, in a tiny little tangent.
Lex Fridman (1:41:36.920)
Do you play electric?
Eric Weinstein (1:41:37.840)
I have a Stratocaster, but it doesn't have a strap
Lex Fridman (1:41:40.960)
and I don't know what to do with it and I have a bad amp.
Lex Fridman (1:41:42.960)
So you should, you should, you should hook me up with the.
Lex Fridman (1:41:46.800)
We'll find it a home maybe.
Eric Weinstein (1:41:48.220)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:41:49.240)
You're starting to sense that this is too much.
Eric Weinstein (1:41:52.140)
No, I want to be, I want to be here.
Lex Fridman (1:41:54.640)
I want to do the work very simply.
Eric Weinstein (1:42:00.640)
I don't have an ability to fully explain myself.
Lex Fridman (1:42:03.680)
I don't want to claim that I don't love the fact that how
Lex Fridman (1:42:06.880)
much love do we get from these programs?
Lex Fridman (1:42:09.080)
Like I, the generically people are incredibly generous.
Eric Weinstein (1:42:16.240)
You know, people have begged me, set up a Patreon account
Lex Fridman (1:42:19.000)
and I haven't been able to do it.
Eric Weinstein (1:42:21.960)
I should do it.
Lex Fridman (1:42:22.980)
I've said to everybody, it's a business.
Eric Weinstein (1:42:24.320)
It's a business.
Lex Fridman (1:42:24.880)
It's a business, but like they're so used to being defrauded.
Eric Weinstein (1:42:28.880)
When somebody starts thinking about monetary incentives, my,
Lex Fridman (1:42:31.600)
my goal was to say, I'm going to keep talking to you about you.
Eric Weinstein (1:42:34.600)
You wonder why I started doing ads on my show was because I
Lex Fridman (1:42:37.480)
wanted people to think from the get go, this is a business.
Eric Weinstein (1:42:41.360)
This is what I sound like when I'm selling, but you know, like
Lex Fridman (1:42:46.400)
you see I've lost weight.
Eric Weinstein (1:42:49.000)
A lot of that is due to athletic greens, athletic greens, you
Lex Fridman (1:42:52.120)
know, um, code, uh, what's the, I don't know what my promo code
Eric Weinstein (1:42:57.880)
is for athletic greens, probably athletic greens.com slash portal,
Lex Fridman (1:43:01.720)
but doesn't that portal, but you know, Fitbit who doesn't
Eric Weinstein (1:43:05.080)
advertise has also been instrumental as well as a guy
Lex Fridman (1:43:08.200)
named Steven Cates, who, you know, was a fan from the show,
Eric Weinstein (1:43:12.280)
found me on the street and just said, I'm a trainer.
Lex Fridman (1:43:14.080)
I want to help train you.
Lex Fridman (1:43:15.040)
And it's got me on a, on a good, uh, good path.
Lex Fridman (1:43:18.200)
So, you know, that's one paid advertiser and two people on
Eric Weinstein (1:43:21.880)
I'm calling out just because there are, you know, two, two
Lex Fridman (1:43:24.880)
outfits, Steven Cates and Fitbit that have changed my life.
Eric Weinstein (1:43:28.640)
I wanted people to say, you know, you don't have to be
Lex Fridman (1:43:30.720)
afraid of advertising.
Eric Weinstein (1:43:31.920)
If I do it in this way, this is powering your show, but the
Lex Fridman (1:43:37.240)
whole issue of money is weird because people have these crazy
Eric Weinstein (1:43:40.400)
feelings like, Oh wow.
Lex Fridman (1:43:41.680)
I knew he was a shill.
Lex Fridman (1:43:44.000)
He's a grifter, you know?
Lex Fridman (1:43:44.960)
Okay.
Eric Weinstein (1:43:45.880)
I didn't love that.
Lex Fridman (1:43:46.880)
I didn't love the issue.
Lex Fridman (1:43:48.040)
So I didn't set up a Patreon.
Lex Fridman (1:43:50.360)
The security issues for talking and being me are significant.
Lex Fridman (1:43:56.120)
And I don't have the kind of money to hire around the clock.
Lex Fridman (1:44:00.920)
I mean, I, I desperately want to get to a level of wealth
Eric Weinstein (1:44:04.960)
where I don't have to think about money.
Lex Fridman (1:44:07.160)
I don't think it's, you know, some people want money because
Eric Weinstein (1:44:09.840)
they, they, they need it for status.
Lex Fridman (1:44:12.240)
I think I can handle status if I want it doing this, I don't
Eric Weinstein (1:44:16.560)
want the status necessarily.
Lex Fridman (1:44:18.360)
And I don't want, I'd want the status, but I don't want the
Eric Weinstein (1:44:21.880)
fame that goes with it.
Lex Fridman (1:44:24.600)
I want the money.
Eric Weinstein (1:44:25.480)
I don't want to be seen as this is about money because it's
Lex Fridman (1:44:28.720)
about a substance and drink, you know, all of those things.
Eric Weinstein (1:44:33.120)
That's part of, I haven't solved these issues.
Lex Fridman (1:44:37.360)
I've been feeling bad because people say, where's the portal
Lex Fridman (1:44:39.960)
work?
Lex Fridman (1:44:40.160)
We're desperate.
Eric Weinstein (1:44:40.720)
These are difficult times.
Lex Fridman (1:44:41.800)
We have an election coming up and it's just like, do you
Eric Weinstein (1:44:45.120)
think for a moment that I want to explain that I actually got
Lex Fridman (1:44:48.160)
really uncomfortable being as well known as I was?
Lex Fridman (1:44:50.440)
And then what is it that I want?
Lex Fridman (1:44:51.600)
Because I want to be better known and less well known at
Eric Weinstein (1:44:54.360)
the same time.
Lex Fridman (1:44:55.000)
It doesn't, there's nothing the audience can do.
Eric Weinstein (1:44:56.880)
I don't want the audience to be the audience.
Lex Fridman (1:44:58.320)
That doesn't make sense to people.
Eric Weinstein (1:44:59.640)
I want it to be a business, but I don't think people need to
Lex Fridman (1:45:02.560)
fear a business of the businesses open about being a
Eric Weinstein (1:45:04.920)
business that, and then that's all to the side, what you're
Lex Fridman (1:45:09.400)
seeing now in front of the election is an incredibly
Eric Weinstein (1:45:13.920)
meta violent period in our online existence, and I believe
Lex Fridman (1:45:20.160)
that anybody who attempts to say these two parties are
Eric Weinstein (1:45:23.280)
completely screwed at the moment.
Lex Fridman (1:45:25.720)
The leadership of these parties is unsalvageable, unworkable.
Eric Weinstein (1:45:30.200)
Everyone hears that from inside the two party system.
Lex Fridman (1:45:34.080)
Oh, I get it.
Eric Weinstein (1:45:34.920)
He's trying to subtract votes off of Biden.
Lex Fridman (1:45:36.760)
Oh, I get it.
Eric Weinstein (1:45:37.400)
He's trying to scuttle Trump.
Lex Fridman (1:45:39.280)
Oh, I get it.
Eric Weinstein (1:45:40.200)
This is a play for his show because he's trying to plug
Lex Fridman (1:45:42.840)
in to discuss there's a bill Hicks routine on marketing.
Lex Fridman (1:45:46.680)
Have you ever seen this brilliant?
Lex Fridman (1:45:49.000)
I recommend it to everyone where he comes out on stage and
Eric Weinstein (1:45:53.200)
he says, are there any people in marketing and sales in the
Lex Fridman (1:45:55.480)
audience?
Eric Weinstein (1:45:56.200)
Woo.
Lex Fridman (1:45:56.720)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (1:45:57.240)
It's like, okay, great.
Lex Fridman (1:45:59.200)
Can you do us all a favor and die?
Lex Fridman (1:46:01.280)
And like, everybody laughs.
Lex Fridman (1:46:02.560)
He's like, no, I'm not laughing.
Eric Weinstein (1:46:04.160)
I'm seeing being serious.
Lex Fridman (1:46:05.160)
So he's talked about how marketing is horrible.
Lex Fridman (1:46:07.280)
So you're like, where's this act going?
Lex Fridman (1:46:10.280)
Then he gets to the point of it.
Eric Weinstein (1:46:11.160)
It's like, oh, I know how you marketing people think bills
Lex Fridman (1:46:15.120)
going after that, uh, resentment dollar.
Eric Weinstein (1:46:17.600)
That's good dollar.
Lex Fridman (1:46:18.600)
Let's get that resentment anti marketing dollar.
Eric Weinstein (1:46:20.560)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:46:20.880)
It's like, no, that's not what I'm saying.
Eric Weinstein (1:46:21.840)
I really hate marketers.
Lex Fridman (1:46:23.200)
Oh, that's good.
Eric Weinstein (1:46:23.800)
It's the authenticity dollar.
Lex Fridman (1:46:26.440)
You can't escape this kind of negative marketing thought.
Lex Fridman (1:46:31.640)
And I guess that gets to the issue that I don't want to be
Lex Fridman (1:46:36.840)
destroyed in advance of this election. I don't think it's a
Eric Weinstein (1:46:41.960)
good use of my relationship to my audience to be broadcasting
Lex Fridman (1:46:47.560)
how completely ridiculous Donald Trump and Joe Biden are as
Eric Weinstein (1:46:50.960)
candidates for the president of the United States.
Lex Fridman (1:46:53.040)
Full stop.
Eric Weinstein (1:46:54.120)
None of this makes any sense.
Lex Fridman (1:46:55.640)
These moderators of these pseudo debates were in the wrong
Eric Weinstein (1:46:59.160)
format with the wrong people.
Lex Fridman (1:47:01.480)
No part of this makes a wit of sense.
Lex Fridman (1:47:04.240)
Can I try to push back several claims?
Lex Fridman (1:47:07.360)
One is I don't believe the systems as they stand now can
Eric Weinstein (1:47:15.720)
destroy their equine voice, the voice you're a child.
Lex Fridman (1:47:20.560)
I'm sorry to say that, but, well, let me, well, it's also
Eric Weinstein (1:47:24.520)
possible. It's entirely possible that you're the child.
Lex Fridman (1:47:28.640)
Okay.
Eric Weinstein (1:47:29.600)
Because a child would say you would call other people a child.
Lex Fridman (1:47:33.120)
Yeah. Get in the first blow reveal the tell because the only
Eric Weinstein (1:47:40.800)
power they have is to attack you psychologically.
Lex Fridman (1:47:43.840)
No.
Eric Weinstein (1:47:44.840)
Well, I believe that the army of people that love you is much
Lex Fridman (1:47:51.320)
more powerful than mainstream media, than people that you
Eric Weinstein (1:47:57.280)
might hear it say ridiculous things that you just said,
Lex Fridman (1:47:59.920)
which has tried to reduce you, like the marketing thinking.
Eric Weinstein (1:48:05.880)
I just believe there's an army.
Lex Fridman (1:48:08.080)
Maybe there's a better term of people that see you for who
Eric Weinstein (1:48:12.640)
you are and a hungry, like I'm not disputing those things.
Lex Fridman (1:48:17.160)
And what I'm saying, I would venture to say as your therapist
Eric Weinstein (1:48:21.600)
that you're actually, uh, the battle is all in your mind.
Lex Fridman (1:48:28.400)
All in your mind that you have found these demons in the
Eric Weinstein (1:48:33.600)
system, and they're just a tiny minority and it's all in your
Lex Fridman (1:48:39.120)
mind. They cannot actually remove.
Eric Weinstein (1:48:42.400)
They're not strong enough to remove the voice of Eric Weinstein
Lex Fridman (1:48:47.920)
to silence the voice.
Eric Weinstein (1:48:49.040)
I love this.
Lex Fridman (1:48:51.080)
This is some of the best fiction writing I've ever heard.
Eric Weinstein (1:48:55.480)
Let me tell you, I have relatives who've known me my entire
Lex Fridman (1:49:00.360)
life, where one article in the New York Times, they will
Eric Weinstein (1:49:04.040)
believe that over me.
Lex Fridman (1:49:04.960)
My contention is that it has no power except to affect your
Eric Weinstein (1:49:10.720)
psychology. What you have to do is the Rogan thing, which is
Lex Fridman (1:49:13.600)
laugh. Just laugh.
Eric Weinstein (1:49:15.240)
I am laughing.
Lex Fridman (1:49:16.680)
I know, but more.
Eric Weinstein (1:49:18.040)
I'm telling you something.
Lex Fridman (1:49:20.040)
Yes.
Eric Weinstein (1:49:20.360)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:49:20.800)
The way this works is through ruin.
Eric Weinstein (1:49:23.640)
Ruin can come to anyone.
Lex Fridman (1:49:27.480)
There's no one who cannot be ruined.
Eric Weinstein (1:49:29.320)
Every single person is signed up right now to be ruined by
Lex Fridman (1:49:35.400)
the system.
Lex Fridman (1:49:35.960)
Don't you understand that you have more power than the system?
Lex Fridman (1:49:40.520)
You can ruin the system.
Eric Weinstein (1:49:42.760)
Your Twitter account, the podcast.
Lex Fridman (1:49:45.480)
I'm telling you about the Army.
Eric Weinstein (1:49:47.560)
I agree that my Twitter account, my pocket.
Lex Fridman (1:49:50.000)
But what we've seen, for example, you saw what happened
Eric Weinstein (1:49:53.000)
to Brett's Articles of Unity project.
Lex Fridman (1:49:54.840)
Yes.
Eric Weinstein (1:49:55.840)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:49:56.360)
What happened on the Twitter side?
Lex Fridman (1:49:59.920)
What happened?
Lex Fridman (1:50:01.840)
What happened?
Eric Weinstein (1:50:03.160)
Well, actually, say the word and say the word.
Lex Fridman (1:50:05.120)
It was blocked or removed from Twitter.
Eric Weinstein (1:50:07.800)
Suspended.
Lex Fridman (1:50:08.280)
Account suspended.
Lex Fridman (1:50:09.400)
And I have a direct line to Jack.
Lex Fridman (1:50:14.360)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (1:50:14.720)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:50:15.240)
So I'm talking to the CEO who I am crazy enough to still
Eric Weinstein (1:50:20.160)
believe in.
Lex Fridman (1:50:20.680)
Good.
Eric Weinstein (1:50:21.800)
I do, too.
Lex Fridman (1:50:22.520)
I believe somehow there's a very strange thing going on
Eric Weinstein (1:50:25.720)
with Jack Dorsey.
Lex Fridman (1:50:27.200)
I cannot possibly reconcile the actions with the person I've...
Eric Weinstein (1:50:32.800)
That is a next level mind in there.
Lex Fridman (1:50:37.000)
I don't know it well enough to say that it's all next level.
Eric Weinstein (1:50:39.800)
I'm not claiming he doesn't have any blind spots.
Lex Fridman (1:50:41.880)
Every smart person I know has blind spots.
Eric Weinstein (1:50:43.840)
I don't know what he's up against.
Lex Fridman (1:50:44.880)
Blah, blah, blah.
Eric Weinstein (1:50:46.600)
There's no way that the Jack Dorsey that I've talked to and
Lex Fridman (1:50:50.040)
the Jack Dorsey that interacted over Articles of Unity can be
Eric Weinstein (1:50:53.720)
the same person.
Lex Fridman (1:50:55.400)
He is constrained by that company in some way that
Eric Weinstein (1:50:58.040)
doesn't make sense to me.
Lex Fridman (1:50:59.320)
Either that or he's the most duplicitous person on earth and
Eric Weinstein (1:51:01.640)
I'm not believing it.
Lex Fridman (1:51:02.560)
I just don't buy it.
Lex Fridman (1:51:03.560)
Okay?
Lex Fridman (1:51:04.480)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (1:51:05.480)
Something horrible is happening.
Lex Fridman (1:51:10.040)
My claim is I can remove you functionally from the chessboard
Eric Weinstein (1:51:14.560)
in a tiny number of moves, no matter who you are, no matter
Lex Fridman (1:51:18.600)
how virtuous or how much of a bastard you've been your entire
Eric Weinstein (1:51:21.400)
life, it doesn't take more than three or four moves to
Lex Fridman (1:51:25.120)
basically neuter you as a force.
Eric Weinstein (1:51:27.800)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:51:28.000)
And I disagree that if that's possible, that means I'm not
Eric Weinstein (1:51:31.520)
very good at chess.
Lex Fridman (1:51:32.840)
Like Unity 2020 was removed from Twitter because it's not
Eric Weinstein (1:51:36.680)
good enough, not within the system.
Lex Fridman (1:51:39.720)
Like the army of people that feel the brilliance of the idea
Eric Weinstein (1:51:45.080)
was too small.
Lex Fridman (1:51:46.400)
Okay, but fear, uncertainty and doubt is the name of the
Eric Weinstein (1:51:49.600)
game, the coin of the realm.
Lex Fridman (1:51:51.040)
Psychology though, it's not real power.
Eric Weinstein (1:51:53.680)
It just affects the mind.
Lex Fridman (1:51:55.160)
Okay, I have a reading assignment for you because you're
Eric Weinstein (1:51:57.800)
Russian, you'll really enjoy this.
Lex Fridman (1:52:01.240)
As part of the great American tobacco settlement, the Tobacco
Eric Weinstein (1:52:04.920)
Institute had to disgorge its archives of all of its
Lex Fridman (1:52:08.200)
strategies, all of its skullduggery and put it on the
Eric Weinstein (1:52:11.680)
web for all time so that we can all understand how the tobacco
Lex Fridman (1:52:15.600)
companies got together and destroyed people, right?
Eric Weinstein (1:52:19.960)
You see tobacco destroys people.
Lex Fridman (1:52:22.520)
You can see, you know, Scientology destroys people.
Eric Weinstein (1:52:26.160)
There are various vindictive organizations that will not
Lex Fridman (1:52:31.680)
tolerate reality in opposition to them.
Eric Weinstein (1:52:36.880)
Let's take them down.
Lex Fridman (1:52:38.480)
Okay.
Eric Weinstein (1:52:39.080)
That's what I'm trying to tell you is...
Lex Fridman (1:52:40.320)
Okay, no.
Lex Fridman (1:52:41.440)
So why aren't you doing the podcast to return?
Lex Fridman (1:52:43.840)
Because that's one of the weapons of war.
Eric Weinstein (1:52:49.240)
Well, first of all, if you're at war, I don't want to
Lex Fridman (1:52:52.680)
discuss strategy on a podcast, right?
Lex Fridman (1:52:57.880)
But that's your misunderstanding.
Lex Fridman (1:52:59.120)
What did Montgomery say about Rommel?
Lex Fridman (1:53:01.960)
But wasn't his line, I read your book, you beautiful bastard.
Lex Fridman (1:53:06.120)
It's like, why are you using the tactics that you
Lex Fridman (1:53:07.760)
already explained?
Lex Fridman (1:53:09.560)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:53:10.120)
So one of the things I'm doing is I'm not having a strategic
Lex Fridman (1:53:13.000)
conversation with you and several hundred thousand of
Eric Weinstein (1:53:16.360)
our closest friends.
Lex Fridman (1:53:20.360)
I pulled back because this is not the battle that I know
Lex Fridman (1:53:27.280)
what I'm doing.
Lex Fridman (1:53:28.640)
I do not feel passionately enough about defeating Donald
Eric Weinstein (1:53:31.880)
Trump to elect Joe Biden, even if that's the way I'm going
Lex Fridman (1:53:34.760)
to ultimately vote, right?
Eric Weinstein (1:53:39.760)
I don't believe in the Biden Democratic Party.
Lex Fridman (1:53:42.560)
I don't believe in the Trump Republican Party.
Eric Weinstein (1:53:45.360)
So, yes, it's an incredibly consequential election.
Lex Fridman (1:53:48.480)
But to me, it's like the Crips and the Bloods and the Latin
Eric Weinstein (1:53:52.000)
Kings fighting over the right to extort a business and the
Lex Fridman (1:53:56.720)
business trying to figure out who it wants to do the extorting.
Lex Fridman (1:54:00.520)
But don't you think, listen, there's very few people that
Lex Fridman (1:54:03.360)
are as good with the English language as you.
Eric Weinstein (1:54:05.760)
Don't you think it's possible to draw a line in between that
Lex Fridman (1:54:12.000)
finds how we find our common humanity that ensures a better
Eric Weinstein (1:54:18.520)
2021 without having to say like Donald Trump is evil or Joe
Lex Fridman (1:54:23.520)
Biden is incompetent or any of that, just somehow draw a
Lex Fridman (1:54:27.240)
beautiful line?
Lex Fridman (1:54:28.240)
I am seeing people in so much pain.
Eric Weinstein (1:54:30.520)
This election is chewing up the integrity of everyone who
Lex Fridman (1:54:34.320)
comments on it, Lex.
Eric Weinstein (1:54:36.840)
Maybe they're not good enough.
Lex Fridman (1:54:38.280)
They're not good enough.
Eric Weinstein (1:54:39.280)
No, but the hope is...
Lex Fridman (1:54:41.600)
Do you believe in me?
Eric Weinstein (1:54:42.600)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (1:54:43.600)
You do?
Eric Weinstein (1:54:44.600)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (1:54:45.600)
Listen to me very carefully.
Eric Weinstein (1:54:46.880)
My spider sense, my intuition that has allowed me to survive
Lex Fridman (1:54:51.040)
in the space, I've been mouthing off since the 80s, tells me
Eric Weinstein (1:54:56.240)
this is a super dangerous time for smart people to be spending
Lex Fridman (1:55:01.520)
the dry powder because the election doesn't make sense.
Eric Weinstein (1:55:06.920)
Doesn't mean that I don't have a sense that one outcome would
Lex Fridman (1:55:09.640)
be better than the other probably, but the variance on
Eric Weinstein (1:55:12.400)
that, I'm not even positive that I'm right.
Lex Fridman (1:55:16.040)
These two options are so completely inappropriate to the
Eric Weinstein (1:55:20.040)
world of 2020.
Lex Fridman (1:55:22.640)
What we need is so diametrically opposed to more boomers and
Eric Weinstein (1:55:26.040)
more silent generation people trying to sort out a highly
Lex Fridman (1:55:30.460)
technical world being mediated through social media.
Eric Weinstein (1:55:36.160)
We need more exclusion.
Lex Fridman (1:55:37.760)
We need more actual elites.
Eric Weinstein (1:55:39.880)
The people we've called the elites are not the elite.
Lex Fridman (1:55:42.400)
They need to go.
Eric Weinstein (1:55:43.400)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:55:44.400)
We need excellence, competence.
Eric Weinstein (1:55:45.880)
We need people who can be trusted behind closed doors and we need
Lex Fridman (1:55:49.440)
to close the doors so we can't see what those people are doing.
Eric Weinstein (1:55:55.040)
Here's the thing.
Lex Fridman (1:55:56.040)
Imagine that you had a bunch of people who'd all seen action
Eric Weinstein (1:55:59.680)
in combat, had all volunteered to be part of the armed services,
Lex Fridman (1:56:03.560)
had all come from backgrounds where they didn't need to.
Lex Fridman (1:56:06.160)
So you were convinced that these people had put their lives on
Lex Fridman (1:56:09.040)
the line for their country, not for a payday.
Eric Weinstein (1:56:12.680)
Imagine you had 10 of these people with technical backgrounds,
Lex Fridman (1:56:15.520)
men, women, black, white, Muslim, Jew, doesn't matter.
Eric Weinstein (1:56:22.360)
I would trust those people and I'd close the door.
Lex Fridman (1:56:26.880)
I don't want to know what they talked about.
Eric Weinstein (1:56:29.200)
I don't want transparency into all of their negotiations.
Lex Fridman (1:56:33.440)
I want to know that they're patriotic, that they see something in the world
Eric Weinstein (1:56:36.640)
bigger than themselves and their family fortunes.
Lex Fridman (1:56:40.080)
I want to know that they're courageous.
Eric Weinstein (1:56:42.400)
I want to know that they've got all of our well being and I'm willing
Lex Fridman (1:56:45.920)
to roll the dice.
Lex Fridman (1:56:46.920)
And if they screw us over, I'd rather go down like that.
Lex Fridman (1:56:49.720)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:56:50.720)
So I disagree with you there because there's a difference in those
Lex Fridman (1:56:53.680)
and Jocko because you're not speaking to people with credentials.
Eric Weinstein (1:56:59.480)
No, I'm talking about self credentialed people.
Lex Fridman (1:57:02.480)
I view Jocko as self credentialed.
Lex Fridman (1:57:04.600)
But the biggest, the powerful thing about Jocko is he's not only self credentialed,
Lex Fridman (1:57:08.440)
but he's been real with people.
Eric Weinstein (1:57:12.840)
The magical thing about Jocko isn't his book, isn't his life story is he's been
Lex Fridman (1:57:17.920)
talking on a podcast for a long, there's something real that happens.
Eric Weinstein (1:57:21.760)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:57:22.760)
So if you took everybody, if you took Dan Crenshaw and Tulsi Gabbard and you took
Eric Weinstein (1:57:28.000)
Jocko Willing and maybe Jesse Ventura, right, you can take, you can take Bernie
Lex Fridman (1:57:35.360)
Sanders.
Eric Weinstein (1:57:36.360)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:57:37.360)
Who's, you know, a lone voice.
Lex Fridman (1:57:38.840)
You take all of these people who've like really just risked, like why do we trust?
Lex Fridman (1:57:45.080)
Why is Katherine Hepburn the best that Hollywood ever produced?
Eric Weinstein (1:57:48.920)
Because she told Hollywood to go fuck itself hard.
Lex Fridman (1:57:54.240)
They gave her four Academy awards and she said, love you, sweeties.
Eric Weinstein (1:57:58.200)
I'm going to use them as the doorstop for the bathrooms in my house.
Lex Fridman (1:58:01.560)
See that skill.
Eric Weinstein (1:58:02.560)
That's, uh, that's, that's just, that's what you were talking about.
Lex Fridman (1:58:05.320)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (1:58:06.320)
Be Katherine Hepburn.
Lex Fridman (1:58:07.320)
Audrey Hepburn is pretty amazing, but Katherine Hepburn is next level.
Lex Fridman (1:58:11.640)
Right?
Lex Fridman (1:58:12.640)
Well, you, I mean, that's what you're trying to say to me.
Eric Weinstein (1:58:14.680)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:58:15.680)
Okay.
Eric Weinstein (1:58:16.680)
I'm trying to figure it out, Lex.
Lex Fridman (1:58:17.680)
Okay.
Eric Weinstein (1:58:18.680)
I don't have the answer yet.
Lex Fridman (1:58:19.680)
What I do know is that this election is chewing people up and I mean two separate things.
Eric Weinstein (1:58:23.760)
One that parties don't have enough integrity that if you comment either for or against,
Lex Fridman (1:58:29.080)
there's a short sequence where you make a comment that's nuanced.
Lex Fridman (1:58:33.440)
You get referenced to something, right?
Lex Fridman (1:58:36.320)
Like, you know, take this thing about, you know, find people on both sides.
Eric Weinstein (1:58:41.640)
That is non resolved after N years, whether the context should be reported or not.
Eric Weinstein (1:58:49.080)
We are in some situation in which Democrats and Republicans are primed to fight each other.
Eric Weinstein (1:58:55.060)
The way introducing two ants from two different ant colonies always produces a battle.
Lex Fridman (1:58:59.760)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (1:59:00.760)
Okay.
Eric Weinstein (1:59:01.760)
I don't want to be in that fray because those people are going to kill each other mindlessly
Eric Weinstein (1:59:07.400)
like robots.
Lex Fridman (1:59:08.920)
And until the election is concluded, like I, do I think this is dire?
Eric Weinstein (1:59:13.720)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (1:59:14.720)
Could it be make or break?
Eric Weinstein (1:59:15.720)
Absolutely.
Lex Fridman (1:59:16.720)
I'm not saying that.
Lex Fridman (1:59:17.720)
Do I know which way this goes?
Lex Fridman (1:59:18.720)
I can make an excellent argument that we need to elect Joe Biden right now.
Eric Weinstein (1:59:22.520)
We've got a situation which can only be cured by voting for Joe Biden.
Eric Weinstein (1:59:26.840)
I can make another argument that we could have a situation that can only be cured by
Eric Weinstein (1:59:31.240)
defeating Joe Biden right now.
Lex Fridman (1:59:33.620)
And all of the things that the modern democratic party represents.
Eric Weinstein (1:59:37.400)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (1:59:38.840)
I don't have, you know, it's, it's not the lady and the tiger we're choosing between
Eric Weinstein (1:59:44.740)
the tiger and the tiger.
Lex Fridman (1:59:45.980)
It's the Sumatran tiger versus the Siberian tiger, right?
Eric Weinstein (1:59:48.920)
I'm trying to think, well, which tiger can I, do I have a better chance against, um,
Eric Weinstein (1:59:54.400)
the key problem for us politically is that we have to divorce the concept of the center
Lex Fridman (20:01.040)
and you also have humility.
Lex Fridman (20:02.540)
And most people would hear those as a contradiction.
Eric Weinstein (20:05.600)
I think that you would not be able to get away
Lex Fridman (20:07.460)
with what you do if you didn't have the humility.
Lex Fridman (20:11.880)
And so I think the great danger is that your equation
Lex Fridman (20:15.500)
becomes unbalanced, that you either lose the humility
Eric Weinstein (20:18.740)
or you lose the humility overwhelms the ego and the drive.
Lex Fridman (20:24.020)
Because right now you've got a Mexican standoff
Eric Weinstein (20:26.100)
in your mind and the rest of us are just benefiting.
Lex Fridman (20:28.540)
That's beautifully put.
Eric Weinstein (20:29.680)
My Mexican standoffs aren't as stable as yours.
Lex Fridman (20:32.180)
It's all reservoir dogs all the time.
Lex Fridman (20:36.140)
But actually the person who that describes is Peter Thiel.
Lex Fridman (20:39.820)
Peter Thiel thinks more, people always say like,
Lex Fridman (20:42.260)
what does Peter think about X, Y, and Z, P, and Q?
Lex Fridman (20:44.260)
It's like, well, do you want communist Peter?
Lex Fridman (20:46.220)
Do you want hyper capitalist Peter?
Lex Fridman (20:47.700)
He's got all these minds in there, oh my God, right?
Eric Weinstein (20:50.020)
On everything.
Lex Fridman (20:50.860)
That's why he's successful is that he's got all these minds
Eric Weinstein (20:52.900)
fighting each other.
Lex Fridman (20:53.740)
And so when people say Peter is this or Peter is that,
Eric Weinstein (20:56.100)
I just laugh because like nobody who knows him
Lex Fridman (20:59.940)
would describe him as having thoughts at the level
Eric Weinstein (21:02.940)
that people are claiming.
Lex Fridman (21:04.520)
And I do think that in my case,
Eric Weinstein (21:12.200)
there's also pathological epistemic humility.
Lex Fridman (21:14.820)
Like just, I know how little I can do in one life.
Eric Weinstein (21:20.580)
I know how many things I've screwed up.
Lex Fridman (21:22.700)
I know how many things I've got wrong.
Lex Fridman (21:25.180)
And on the other hand, I know that if not,
Lex Fridman (21:28.380)
it's like Hillel's questions,
Lex Fridman (21:30.100)
if I'm not for myself, who will be for me?
Lex Fridman (21:32.340)
And if I'm only for myself, what am I?
Lex Fridman (21:34.100)
If not now, when?
Lex Fridman (21:36.900)
At some level, there's a question about
Eric Weinstein (21:39.980)
if I don't decide that someone is capable
Lex Fridman (21:43.140)
and that that somebody is me.
Lex Fridman (21:45.220)
And if I apply that to everyone else on the planet,
Lex Fridman (21:49.100)
then nobody's gonna do anything.
Lex Fridman (21:50.460)
And so I do think that one of the things
Lex Fridman (21:52.580)
that people like you and I get is who are you to say that?
Eric Weinstein (21:57.500)
F that, man, just sign me up for some Dunning Kruger.
Lex Fridman (22:03.940)
Yeah, but it's multiple minds like you said.
Eric Weinstein (22:06.880)
Like this morning, I was feeling so good and confident
Lex Fridman (22:09.980)
about I couldn't think no wrong.
Lex Fridman (22:12.280)
And I remember last night clearly thinking
Lex Fridman (22:14.260)
that I'm the dumbest human who's ever lived
Lex Fridman (22:16.780)
and nothing I've ever said is worth anything.
Lex Fridman (22:19.700)
What the fuck am I doing with my life?
Lex Fridman (22:22.560)
Why am I scared?
Lex Fridman (22:23.760)
I was terrified of this conversation.
Lex Fridman (22:26.340)
Who the hell am I?
Lex Fridman (22:27.180)
This conversation?
Eric Weinstein (22:28.020)
Because I'm an idiot.
Lex Fridman (22:29.300)
And because, you know, Lex, but no, no, no, no.
Lex Fridman (22:34.140)
But this morning, I was the baddest motherfucker
Lex Fridman (22:38.300)
who's ever walked this earth.
Lex Fridman (22:39.420)
So I was very conscious.
Lex Fridman (22:41.780)
I think it was the coffee, I'm not sure, maybe some sleep.
Eric Weinstein (22:44.340)
This sounds very Russian and it involves multiple beverages,
Lex Fridman (22:47.140)
some of them being alcoholic, others containing caffeine.
Eric Weinstein (22:49.960)
There's, in fact, I can't share the story behind it,
Lex Fridman (22:53.620)
but there is a bottle of vodka in the fridge.
Eric Weinstein (22:56.180)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (22:57.660)
So, I mean, I should have hit you for coffee
Eric Weinstein (23:00.140)
because this is a morning show here.
Lex Fridman (23:02.580)
So I put out a call that we get a chance
Eric Weinstein (23:05.020)
to have this conversation
Lex Fridman (23:06.180)
and people ask these wonderful questions.
Eric Weinstein (23:08.500)
A few people asked about depression and suicide.
Lex Fridman (23:16.020)
This is a Russian program, so we have to go there.
Lex Fridman (23:19.260)
And I think about Leonard Cohen
Lex Fridman (23:20.980)
and one of the things that always kind of broke my heart
Lex Fridman (23:28.620)
and kind of suffocated the hope I have for just,
Lex Fridman (23:33.820)
I don't know, for love in a person's life
Eric Weinstein (23:36.780)
is to hear how much depression was a part
Lex Fridman (23:39.900)
of Leonard Cohen's life and how much he suffered.
Eric Weinstein (23:44.460)
I guess one way, I'm not sure where we can go
Lex Fridman (23:47.260)
with this question, but do you think about the places
Lex Fridman (23:50.580)
that the mind can go, like these dark places?
Lex Fridman (23:54.260)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (23:55.420)
Is there something like where the only escape out
Lex Fridman (24:00.120)
is suicide, for example, that's the darkest version of it?
Eric Weinstein (24:02.920)
That, I really think suicide is a big place
Lex Fridman (24:07.380)
in suicidal ideation and self harm
Lex Fridman (24:09.900)
and we don't talk a lot about it.
Lex Fridman (24:14.180)
It's a similar problem to trying to talk about trans.
Eric Weinstein (24:17.300)
These are umbrella categories.
Lex Fridman (24:19.260)
And if the commonality is that somebody harms themselves,
Lex Fridman (24:23.380)
but we don't know whether that's coming
Lex Fridman (24:25.660)
because of a problem in brain chemistry,
Eric Weinstein (24:28.000)
because of an event in their life,
Lex Fridman (24:30.060)
whether evolutionary programming for suicide
Eric Weinstein (24:34.500)
is weirdly normal, whether or not
Lex Fridman (24:37.580)
it might have a religious motivation.
Eric Weinstein (24:40.420)
There's too many different forms of self harm.
Lex Fridman (24:43.620)
It's something like the 10th largest killer thereabouts.
Lex Fridman (24:49.780)
And I think that you can look at it from different angles.
Lex Fridman (24:53.380)
I'm old enough to have had Pete Seeger come to my college
Eric Weinstein (24:58.380)
when I was at university and to watch his good humor
Lex Fridman (25:04.300)
in the face of all adversity.
Eric Weinstein (25:07.820)
I think of Odetta, I used to go to Odetta concerts.
Lex Fridman (25:10.900)
I don't know if you know who she is.
Eric Weinstein (25:13.340)
Okay, this is gonna be one of the better days of your life.
Lex Fridman (25:15.340)
Check out Odetta when we're done with the interview.
Eric Weinstein (25:19.180)
She was a civil rights figure,
Lex Fridman (25:20.980)
but also just had a profound voice and great musicianship.
Lex Fridman (25:25.980)
These people were in the struggle, right?
Lex Fridman (25:29.360)
And they saw lots of bad things happen
Lex Fridman (25:32.880)
and they kept their humor about them.
Lex Fridman (25:34.960)
And the thing is that you can take on the Weltschmerz,
Eric Weinstein (25:41.760)
the pain of the planet,
Lex Fridman (25:43.600)
or you can try to do something else,
Eric Weinstein (25:46.520)
which is to be a happy warrior,
Lex Fridman (25:48.240)
even if the odds are terrible
Lex Fridman (25:51.520)
and the cost of failure is catastrophic.
Lex Fridman (25:55.200)
So even when surrounded by darkness.
Lex Fridman (25:58.400)
But the thing is with Leonard Cohen
Lex Fridman (26:00.380)
is he created such beautiful music.
Lex Fridman (26:03.600)
And yet it's like Anthony Bourdain, the same.
Lex Fridman (26:08.140)
And yet they go to this dark place.
Lex Fridman (26:11.400)
And it could be, it's easy to say it's just biochemistry.
Lex Fridman (26:16.720)
There's a linkage between this highly generative,
Eric Weinstein (26:19.300)
creative side and in some cases,
Lex Fridman (26:23.520)
dark depression, in other cases, not.
Lex Fridman (26:26.860)
So you can't say that it's tied,
Lex Fridman (26:29.400)
the genius and madness are always co traveling
Eric Weinstein (26:32.180)
or the beauty and pain are one in the same.
Lex Fridman (26:35.580)
What you can say is that there's a cluster of people
Eric Weinstein (26:38.380)
that tell you that for that cluster,
Lex Fridman (26:40.260)
there is a relationship between the darkness and the beauty.
Lex Fridman (26:43.660)
And I do think that in part,
Lex Fridman (26:45.460)
it's squaring circles that can't be squared.
Eric Weinstein (26:47.960)
We were just talking before about the inability
Lex Fridman (26:54.760)
to serve two perfect systems,
Eric Weinstein (26:56.560)
the perfect system of the wave equation
Lex Fridman (26:58.800)
and the perfect system of even temperament.
Eric Weinstein (27:01.240)
They're both perfect, they're not compatible.
Lex Fridman (27:05.320)
And once you realize that there is perfection
Lex Fridman (27:07.920)
and an inability to make contact with perfection,
Lex Fridman (27:11.060)
I think you recognize that there is no solution
Eric Weinstein (27:20.720)
to this world.
Lex Fridman (27:23.080)
Yeah, that's weird with the poets and musicians.
Lex Fridman (27:26.880)
Do you want to say this is a particular thing that you do,
Lex Fridman (27:29.840)
but then there's Spanish fly by Van Halen.
Lex Fridman (27:33.040)
And then you realize, oh, well,
Lex Fridman (27:34.960)
what do you get out of Spanish fly by Van Halen?
Eric Weinstein (27:37.920)
I think it's very singular because of the fact
Lex Fridman (27:40.640)
that it's purely acoustic.
Eric Weinstein (27:42.260)
For some reason, I always,
Lex Fridman (27:44.280)
I couldn't imagine Eddie Van Halen separate from the band
Eric Weinstein (27:47.640)
in front of thousands of people just screaming
Lex Fridman (27:51.080)
and rocking out with lights everywhere.
Lex Fridman (27:53.440)
And Spanish fly made me think like,
Lex Fridman (27:55.880)
it made me imagine him sitting alone
Eric Weinstein (27:57.680)
on a couch in a room.
Lex Fridman (27:58.520)
I think that's who he was, I really do.
Eric Weinstein (28:00.560)
I mean, believe me, I get it.
Lex Fridman (28:03.320)
He was a rockstar, he was a rock god.
Eric Weinstein (28:04.620)
Got it, got it, got it, got it.
Lex Fridman (28:07.240)
I'm almost positive that you can't get
Eric Weinstein (28:10.080)
to where he got to without being a complete introvert.
Lex Fridman (28:13.400)
Yeah, it made me imagine
Eric Weinstein (28:14.840)
that there's some half naked supermodel walking around,
Lex Fridman (28:20.000)
hoping that they can do their thing together.
Lex Fridman (28:24.440)
And Eddie's completely disinterested.
Lex Fridman (28:26.220)
He'd be with the guitar.
Lex Fridman (28:27.060)
He'd be with the guitar, right?
Lex Fridman (28:28.360)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (28:29.200)
Because honestly, at some level,
Lex Fridman (28:31.960)
in one case, maybe you're conquesting,
Eric Weinstein (28:35.040)
maybe you're pursuing love and romance.
Lex Fridman (28:37.120)
In the other case, you're talking about a relationship
Eric Weinstein (28:39.920)
to the order, the creator, the almighty,
Lex Fridman (28:42.960)
whatever it is you want to call that substrate
Eric Weinstein (28:44.800)
that is reality.
Lex Fridman (28:46.740)
And do I believe that Eddie Van Halen
Lex Fridman (28:51.200)
and Jimi Hendrix and Paganini and Heifetz
Lex Fridman (28:53.860)
jacked into the true essence of the world?
Eric Weinstein (28:56.480)
Yeah, they did.
Lex Fridman (28:57.720)
I don't think it's as good as differential geometry.
Eric Weinstein (29:00.640)
I'm sorry.
Lex Fridman (29:01.680)
I do think it's amazing for other reasons.
Lex Fridman (29:05.800)
And thank God, because it's very typical
Lex Fridman (29:07.960)
to communicate differential geometry at scale.
Lex Fridman (29:10.320)
But the thing about eruption, for example,
Lex Fridman (29:13.140)
what level do you want to come into eruption?
Lex Fridman (29:15.320)
Do you want just the sheer majesty and pageantry?
Lex Fridman (29:18.200)
Do you want the theatrics?
Eric Weinstein (29:20.020)
Like you could put him on wires
Lex Fridman (29:21.880)
and set his pants on fire or whatever,
Lex Fridman (29:24.880)
and it'd be totally in keeping with it.
Lex Fridman (29:27.460)
On the other hand, you want to talk
Eric Weinstein (29:28.300)
to something completely precise
Lex Fridman (29:31.400)
that shows off the virtuosity
Eric Weinstein (29:33.640)
of what's possible with the Stratocaster.
Lex Fridman (29:36.400)
Everything works.
Eric Weinstein (29:38.160)
Multi axis.
Lex Fridman (29:39.000)
But there's a precision to it,
Eric Weinstein (29:40.840)
which is very different than Hendrix.
Lex Fridman (29:44.040)
There's a messiness to Hendrix that to me,
Eric Weinstein (29:46.040)
somebody who has OCD has always been a struggle.
Lex Fridman (29:49.360)
How does Hendrix affect you?
Eric Weinstein (29:50.640)
I mean, let's have the Jimi Hendrix conversation.
Lex Fridman (29:52.600)
I don't know that we can do anything to it
Eric Weinstein (29:53.840)
that hasn't already been done to it.
Lex Fridman (29:56.120)
Maybe that's not true.
Eric Weinstein (29:56.960)
Maybe the idea is that every generation
Lex Fridman (29:58.960)
has to have its Hendrix conversation,
Lex Fridman (2:00:00.440)
and moderation from kleptocracy.
Eric Weinstein (2:00:04.040)
Every time we try to say something like we need more moderate solutions, we need more
Eric Weinstein (2:00:08.300)
pluralistic solution.
Lex Fridman (2:00:10.120)
People will say, wow, you just want to hand us right back into the swamp, don't you?
Lex Fridman (2:00:14.540)
The swamp people cause the moderates and the swamp people are the same people, right?
Lex Fridman (2:00:20.740)
So then we have these two crazy wings.
Eric Weinstein (2:00:23.200)
We can't have crazy right wing people.
Lex Fridman (2:00:25.320)
I don't want any Tiki torch BS.
Eric Weinstein (2:00:27.880)
We can't have crazy left wing.
Lex Fridman (2:00:29.560)
Don't attack my courthouse.
Eric Weinstein (2:00:32.000)
Really don't attack my courthouse and we can't have moderates.
Eric Weinstein (2:00:35.240)
It's like, okay, how do we install our children and, and rape pillage and get these speaking
Eric Weinstein (2:00:39.480)
fees when we're out of office and become, you know, cozy with the things when we're
Eric Weinstein (2:00:44.680)
supposed to be regulating them and then, you know, become their lobbyists, you know, immediately
Eric Weinstein (2:00:49.240)
when we leave office, all of this stuff, we need an entirely different system.
Lex Fridman (2:00:54.120)
And I can't talk about that at the moment.
Eric Weinstein (2:00:57.200)
When I talk, people say, oh wow, so you're going to sit this one out cause you're a pussy
Lex Fridman (2:01:01.080)
because you're a coward.
Eric Weinstein (2:01:02.760)
Great to know Eric.
Lex Fridman (2:01:03.760)
We thought better of you by click.
Eric Weinstein (2:01:06.160)
I don't know what to do.
Lex Fridman (2:01:07.500)
But are you thinking of what to do?
Eric Weinstein (2:01:10.440)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:01:11.440)
Oh, you better believe it.
Eric Weinstein (2:01:13.680)
Look, Brett, Brett had this idea of unity 2020 and I told him it was a wrong idea.
Lex Fridman (2:01:20.440)
I didn't tell him that unity 2024 was a wrong idea.
Eric Weinstein (2:01:23.160)
I didn't tell him that unity 2028 is a wrong idea.
Lex Fridman (2:01:25.860)
And if I were to make the case that he was right and I was wrong, cause he's now shuttered
Lex Fridman (2:01:29.360)
the thing, right?
Eric Weinstein (2:01:31.840)
I would say that the case to be made that he was correct was, is that by doing this
Eric Weinstein (2:01:36.200)
in 2020, we found out what we were up against.
Lex Fridman (2:01:39.500)
It's good to know that Twitter can turn this off at the drop of a hat.
Eric Weinstein (2:01:43.940)
Great to know.
Eric Weinstein (2:01:45.200)
It's good to know as we learned that you cannot have meetings of vice of presidential candidates
Lex Fridman (2:01:53.140)
in a primary that are not approved of by the party, right?
Lex Fridman (2:01:59.620)
Like they've got this thing figured out so we don't have any way in.
Lex Fridman (2:02:03.180)
And now unity 2024 makes sense because unity 2020 was tried.
Lex Fridman (2:02:09.560)
Okay.
Eric Weinstein (2:02:10.560)
I don't know that we get to 2024 under all circumstances and some we do and some we don't.
Eric Weinstein (2:02:16.400)
There's, there's a game theoretic thing that I'm not sure you're accounting for, but you,
Eric Weinstein (2:02:20.620)
you probably are.
Lex Fridman (2:02:21.620)
But let me just make an argument is Jack Dorsey very likely listens to your podcasts and wait,
Eric Weinstein (2:02:32.700)
this is the power of these words.
Lex Fridman (2:02:34.700)
Something deep went wrong, but we can change it with the power of words.
Eric Weinstein (2:02:41.980)
Something went wrong at Twitter.
Lex Fridman (2:02:44.060)
They have so much division on their platform.
Eric Weinstein (2:02:46.100)
That's what I'm trying to say.
Lex Fridman (2:02:47.180)
They've gotten, it's not wrong.
Eric Weinstein (2:02:48.620)
They just don't know they're understaffed.
Lex Fridman (2:02:50.460)
No, they have an insoluble problem.
Eric Weinstein (2:02:53.900)
Difficult to solve.
Lex Fridman (2:02:54.900)
They have an insoluble problem.
Eric Weinstein (2:02:55.900)
This is where you and I disagree because, well, all right, I'd like to create a competitor.
Lex Fridman (2:03:00.580)
So then, you know, give it to me, create the competitor, show me that you actually have
Eric Weinstein (2:03:05.860)
understood this because my guess is, is that most of the things that you'll think about,
Eric Weinstein (2:03:10.100)
I mean, I can tell you things I've talked to Jack about, which I know would make Twitter
Eric Weinstein (2:03:13.580)
much better.
Eric Weinstein (2:03:15.580)
However, I, I think that this problem of instantaneous communication across the planet and you subtract
Eric Weinstein (2:03:23.220)
off all sorts of context and mutual self knowledge, the problem is us.
Lex Fridman (2:03:28.380)
It's not the platforms.
Eric Weinstein (2:03:29.940)
We're thinking about a technological solution and I'm saying the problem is, is that we
Lex Fridman (2:03:34.500)
are ultimately the product.
Lex Fridman (2:03:37.140)
And I just disagree with that and there's a lot of, that's probably could save that
Lex Fridman (2:03:40.140)
for tomorrow.
Eric Weinstein (2:03:41.140)
I look forward to spending summers in your villa when you, when you debut this product
Lex Fridman (2:03:47.060)
and I would love to angel invest in it.
Eric Weinstein (2:03:50.580)
By the way, in terms of money, I'll never have a villa.
Lex Fridman (2:03:54.860)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (2:03:55.860)
No, I will always give away everything I own.
Lex Fridman (2:03:58.500)
No, sorry.
Eric Weinstein (2:04:01.460)
Invest into like things like you mentioned, awesome things.
Lex Fridman (2:04:06.420)
Invest fine, but a little bit of a vuncular advice.
Eric Weinstein (2:04:12.620)
Don't pledge to be the person who disgorges themselves of security.
Lex Fridman (2:04:20.340)
Money is freedom.
Eric Weinstein (2:04:21.900)
That's what it is.
Lex Fridman (2:04:22.900)
It's a big hunking pile of freedom.
Eric Weinstein (2:04:25.700)
Okay.
Eric Weinstein (2:04:26.700)
You can choose to use it as the freedom to imprison you if you don't, you know, so you
Eric Weinstein (2:04:30.460)
can use it as freedom to make yourself a prisoner of your money.
Lex Fridman (2:04:33.740)
But generally speaking, Lex money is freedom and your voice is important.
Eric Weinstein (2:04:39.740)
At least retain the amount of money security you need to follow Joe's advice.
Lex Fridman (2:04:46.260)
What is the point of f you money if you don't say f you, the number of people who have f
Eric Weinstein (2:04:51.460)
you money who don't say f you indicates the number of people who chose the freedom of
Lex Fridman (2:04:56.260)
their wealth to create a prison.
Eric Weinstein (2:04:59.140)
They built a prison with the freedom they had and they walked into it, locked the door.
Lex Fridman (2:05:03.980)
I think it's too difficult not to create it.
Eric Weinstein (2:05:06.640)
The reason I want to give away the money is because I just know my own psychology and
Lex Fridman (2:05:09.820)
you create prisons.
Eric Weinstein (2:05:11.980)
Our human mind just creates those prisons that f you money is enough for basic shelter
Lex Fridman (2:05:19.780)
and basic food.
Eric Weinstein (2:05:20.780)
That's, that's the optimal if you don't have kids yet.
Lex Fridman (2:05:23.680)
This is a, okay, this is the problem.
Eric Weinstein (2:05:25.860)
This is why I'm sitting.
Lex Fridman (2:05:26.860)
So this is me, single Lex speaking, but future Lex, future Lex.
Eric Weinstein (2:05:32.800)
I'm talking to future Lex, single, single present Lex, please don't listen.
Lex Fridman (2:05:38.180)
Don't be an ass.
Eric Weinstein (2:05:39.180)
You're going to need some money and don't make these pledges to say on a podcast.
Lex Fridman (2:05:44.540)
I'm saying I want to save you from yourself.
Eric Weinstein (2:05:47.020)
You need money to do many of the beautiful things that we're counting on you to do.
Lex Fridman (2:05:51.940)
Don't F it up.
Lex Fridman (2:05:56.860)
Can I talk to you about Roger Penrose?
Lex Fridman (2:05:58.780)
Sure.
Eric Weinstein (2:05:59.780)
You've talked to Roger on the portal, but also in between the lines and offline, just
Lex Fridman (2:06:05.740)
everything you've said about Roger Penrose for people who don't know.
Eric Weinstein (2:06:09.660)
He just recently, a few days ago, won the 2020 shared the 2020 Nobel prize for physics,
Lex Fridman (2:06:18.200)
but it's clear to me that he had like a deep personal impact on you, a connection with
Eric Weinstein (2:06:24.500)
you in terms of both your love of mathematics, just the way you see the world.
Lex Fridman (2:06:30.720)
This is the Eddie Van Halen conversation.
Eric Weinstein (2:06:32.660)
This was clearly somebody who's profound in your worldview.
Lex Fridman (2:06:36.060)
Can you talk about Roger?
Lex Fridman (2:06:38.020)
Can you talk about what it means that he won this highest of prizes just in general?
Lex Fridman (2:06:43.380)
Let's celebrate the man.
Eric Weinstein (2:06:44.380)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:06:45.380)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (2:06:46.380)
So first of all, there are two other people who won this prize.
Lex Fridman (2:06:47.980)
I'm sorry.
Eric Weinstein (2:06:48.980)
I just didn't happen to know who they were before they won.
Eric Weinstein (2:06:54.380)
Roger is a very, it is not Roger in particular, but the class from which Roger comes that
Eric Weinstein (2:07:02.340)
is so important.
Lex Fridman (2:07:04.340)
So I would put Roger in the class of Feynman, Einstein, Dirac, Yang, um, put Whitten in
Eric Weinstein (2:07:14.740)
there.
Eric Weinstein (2:07:15.740)
I mean, Whitten is a special case, but Whitten is weirdly the reverse of the Roger Penrose
Lex Fridman (2:07:24.700)
story, right?
Eric Weinstein (2:07:25.700)
Because Whitten is the first physicist to win a mathematical Fields Medal, the highest
Eric Weinstein (2:07:29.580)
honor in mathematics.
Lex Fridman (2:07:32.100)
Penrose is in some sense, a mathematician who's now won the Nobel prize.
Lex Fridman (2:07:36.140)
So it's a perfect sort of a couplet.
Lex Fridman (2:07:41.700)
Roger's class means everything to me.
Eric Weinstein (2:07:45.460)
That's the highest achievement of the human mind.
Lex Fridman (2:07:48.300)
I would probably throw Bach in with Feynman and Dirac and company, right?
Eric Weinstein (2:07:56.060)
I think that he was so inventive.
Lex Fridman (2:07:59.400)
It was very frustrating to watch this career.
Eric Weinstein (2:08:01.700)
It was a little bit frustrating to watch Feynman's career.
Eric Weinstein (2:08:06.140)
Feynman was so good and had he been born slightly different and a slightly different time, I
Eric Weinstein (2:08:14.620)
believe his claim on physics would be far greater.
Eric Weinstein (2:08:21.460)
I feel like Penrose in some sense came up a very difficult path because you see Einstein
Eric Weinstein (2:08:26.240)
effectively solved most of the most important problems in general relativity right at the
Lex Fridman (2:08:30.500)
beginning.
Eric Weinstein (2:08:32.060)
As a result, the children of Einstein are impoverished because there wasn't as much
Lex Fridman (2:08:36.720)
to pick off of the trees and sell at the market.
Eric Weinstein (2:08:39.700)
Whereas Bohr and Planck didn't do nearly as good of a job with quantum theory.
Lex Fridman (2:08:44.600)
So there's lots to do in quantum theory.
Eric Weinstein (2:08:47.260)
I think that Roger affected me personally by a diagram that I saw in a paper of Herman
Lex Fridman (2:08:55.980)
Gluck at the University of Pennsylvania.
Eric Weinstein (2:08:58.220)
It was the first picture I'd ever seen of the Hopf vibration sketched and that weirdly
Lex Fridman (2:09:04.860)
I brought that to the Rogan program in order to sort of convey the wonder.
Eric Weinstein (2:09:10.340)
It was recapitulating my own journey.
Eric Weinstein (2:09:14.300)
I think I probably saw that at like age 16 or something and it just flipped my mind.
Eric Weinstein (2:09:21.020)
Roger is incredibly visual, he's incredibly geometric, he's incredibly sui generis, he
Lex Fridman (2:09:26.980)
just does his own thing.
Eric Weinstein (2:09:29.340)
He's got lots of bets.
Eric Weinstein (2:09:31.220)
None of them had really come through the way you would hope and I think they stretched
Eric Weinstein (2:09:36.500)
the rules to be blunt about it.
Lex Fridman (2:09:38.860)
To give him the prize.
Eric Weinstein (2:09:39.860)
Yeah, I do.
Eric Weinstein (2:09:40.860)
You said this thing on Twitter which is beautiful that every once in a while comes a human being
Eric Weinstein (2:09:46.140)
that gives value to the prize versus the prize giving value to the human.
Lex Fridman (2:09:52.700)
Two different kinds of prizes.
Eric Weinstein (2:09:54.060)
The reason that we care about the Nobel Prize isn't because of Alfred Nobel.
Eric Weinstein (2:09:59.340)
It's because it came along at the right time to reward Einstein, Dirac, Schrodinger, Feynman.
Eric Weinstein (2:10:10.460)
Most of the people who should have won, won.
Lex Fridman (2:10:15.160)
Most of the awards are not good in the sense that they don't really follow.
Eric Weinstein (2:10:21.700)
The prize is used to rewrite history, that's the problem.
Eric Weinstein (2:10:26.820)
You should have a love hate relationship with it because on the one hand it does focus the
Eric Weinstein (2:10:30.760)
world on what really matters and on the other hand it distorts what really matters and both
Lex Fridman (2:10:35.140)
of those functions take place simultaneously.
Eric Weinstein (2:10:38.120)
In this case, I think that they violated their own rules slightly so it wasn't really clearly
Lex Fridman (2:10:44.700)
a case of a prediction and a discovery in the typical fashion.
Eric Weinstein (2:10:50.540)
We better give this award to somebody of that highest caliber to make sure that the prize
Lex Fridman (2:10:56.420)
is fully funded with prestige going forward.
Eric Weinstein (2:10:59.980)
That's sort of my weird speculative guess as to what happened.
Lex Fridman (2:11:04.420)
So Roger's getting on in years and the person should be alive so I think they bent the rules
Lex Fridman (2:11:10.900)
and I think they couldn't have bent it for a better person and I hope they will not bend
Lex Fridman (2:11:14.700)
the rules out of weakness but out of strength in the future.
Eric Weinstein (2:11:18.580)
It would be great to get Madame Wu and Emmy Nerder a posthumous prize along with Doug
Eric Weinstein (2:11:26.140)
Prasher, George Sudarshan and George Zweig as well as Ernst Stuckelberg Nobel Prizes.
Eric Weinstein (2:11:35.060)
There have been some terrible omissions, the first two being females who revolutionized
Eric Weinstein (2:11:42.780)
our view of the world and I take a very dim view of people pushing for prizes for people
Eric Weinstein (2:11:50.300)
from ethnic groups or genders or whatever in order to make it plural and inclusive.
Eric Weinstein (2:11:55.320)
If it's not following the work and I feel very clear that in a few cases we know there
Eric Weinstein (2:11:59.900)
was a real problem with the Nobel committee because we have stunning accomplishments and
Eric Weinstein (2:12:06.220)
try to get through a day as a physicist with that Nerder's theorem and try to imagine the
Eric Weinstein (2:12:11.460)
universe without Madame Wu's discovery that left and right don't appear to be symmetric.
Eric Weinstein (2:12:16.500)
I mean these are terrible omissions and they're a huge blot on science for not being more
Eric Weinstein (2:12:23.460)
inclusive when it matters.
Eric Weinstein (2:12:25.540)
Yeah so just like you said the Nobel Prize is plagued by omissions as much as...
Lex Fridman (2:12:30.300)
And distortions and dilutions.
Eric Weinstein (2:12:31.620)
For example, Dirac and Schrodinger were I believe given the prize in the same year.
Eric Weinstein (2:12:35.940)
There's no reason that those two people needed to dilute each other.
Eric Weinstein (2:12:39.380)
The same thing with you know Dyson was an omission, Tominaga probably got included in
Eric Weinstein (2:12:45.660)
part because we had an opportunity to show that something had happened on both sides
Lex Fridman (2:12:50.260)
of the Pacific after the war.
Lex Fridman (2:12:53.780)
But I don't think we needed to dilute Weinberg or Feynman or Schwinger.
Lex Fridman (2:13:00.500)
It makes me somewhat sick.
Eric Weinstein (2:13:01.900)
All of these people are such important giants and it has to do with the field I think not
Eric Weinstein (2:13:07.020)
wanting to create luminaries and superstars who could have defended the field from budget
Eric Weinstein (2:13:12.740)
cuts and worldly pressures.
Lex Fridman (2:13:14.980)
So I think it's really important that we have absolute superstars because we produce superstars.
Eric Weinstein (2:13:20.820)
We acknowledge them, we don't dilute them and that we bend the rules to make sure that
Eric Weinstein (2:13:26.180)
the prize stays funded with the prestige that comes from giving it to the Roger Penrose's,
Eric Weinstein (2:13:33.100)
Albert Einstein's and Paul Dirac's of the world.
Lex Fridman (2:13:36.740)
Can we talk a little bit about evil?
Eric Weinstein (2:13:39.820)
Sure.
Eric Weinstein (2:13:41.020)
I haven't actually talked to you about this topic and it's been sitting on my mind mostly
Eric Weinstein (2:13:49.540)
because everybody at MIT is quiet about it, which is Jeffrey Epstein.
Eric Weinstein (2:13:56.700)
I didn't get a chance to experience what MIT was like at the time when Jeffrey Epstein
Eric Weinstein (2:14:02.380)
was part of this, but I'd love to try to understand how evil was allowed to flourish in a place
Lex Fridman (2:14:15.320)
that I love.
Eric Weinstein (2:14:18.860)
Whether you think, maybe let me ask the question this way.
Lex Fridman (2:14:24.380)
Was it the man evil or was the system evil or is evil too strong a word?
Eric Weinstein (2:14:35.420)
Because what I see is the presence of this particular human being in the eyes of many
Eric Weinstein (2:14:44.920)
destroyed the reputations of many really strong scientists and also weakened the ability,
Eric Weinstein (2:14:55.380)
like weakened the institution of MIT by making everybody quiet, like almost making them unable
Lex Fridman (2:15:04.060)
to say anything interesting or difficult.
Lex Fridman (2:15:09.620)
And what is that and what am I supposed to?
Lex Fridman (2:15:14.380)
We don't know.
Lex Fridman (2:15:15.380)
Why is everyone quiet about Jeff?
Lex Fridman (2:15:18.140)
We don't know.
Lex Fridman (2:15:19.140)
Obviously I want to scream about it too, right?
Lex Fridman (2:15:22.500)
And I probably have said too much about Jeffrey Epstein.
Eric Weinstein (2:15:26.460)
Look, something horrible happened.
Lex Fridman (2:15:29.500)
I don't know what it is, but something horrible happened.
Lex Fridman (2:15:34.740)
And you know, at the one thing that, okay, let's just do this.
Eric Weinstein (2:15:40.100)
The first thing I need to do is I need to get rid of this woke crap about power differentials.
Eric Weinstein (2:15:47.420)
In general, you can talk about hypergamy and power differentials are Russell conjugates
Eric Weinstein (2:15:54.980)
of the same concept, just the way particular proportions and symmetries are mathematically
Eric Weinstein (2:16:01.300)
provable to be attractive in females to males.
Eric Weinstein (2:16:08.000)
Male attractiveness is largely determined by male competence and ability to amass power
Lex Fridman (2:16:14.220)
and success and all these sorts of things.
Eric Weinstein (2:16:18.220)
The relationship between consenting adults is quite frankly not something I want to sort
Eric Weinstein (2:16:25.300)
out the relationship between the sexuality of adults and minors.
Lex Fridman (2:16:33.880)
And particularly, you know, there's the 17, 18 issue that's very different than 12, 13.
Eric Weinstein (2:16:46.660)
We're talking about really sick depravity with respect to what it appears that Jeffrey
Lex Fridman (2:16:52.620)
Epstein was involved in at some level.
Eric Weinstein (2:16:56.220)
I believe this story is super complicated in part because I think one thing Jeffrey
Eric Weinstein (2:17:01.260)
Epstein was doing was providing money, encouragement, and support to scientists.
Eric Weinstein (2:17:09.900)
Another thing he was doing, I believe, was giving tax advice to very rich people.
Eric Weinstein (2:17:15.820)
I believe another thing he was doing was hooking very wealthy people up with young adult females.
Eric Weinstein (2:17:26.320)
Another thing he was doing, I think, was doing stuff with children that will curl your toes.
Lex Fridman (2:17:36.300)
So there's an entire spectrum of different stuff.
Lex Fridman (2:17:39.780)
And at the moment, nobody can pull apart or deconflate anything because the woke thing
Eric Weinstein (2:17:46.100)
comes over it and says, I think it's disgusting that a 43 year old billionaire would be partying
Eric Weinstein (2:17:54.020)
with a 23 year old.
Lex Fridman (2:17:58.540)
I don't want to adjudicate that.
Eric Weinstein (2:18:00.100)
I'm worried about 12 and 14 year olds that we're not talking about.
Lex Fridman (2:18:05.020)
I don't think MIT was deep into pedophilia.
Eric Weinstein (2:18:08.460)
My guess is that that did not happen.
Eric Weinstein (2:18:10.460)
I don't think that the scientists were the targets of the really sick depraved stuff.
Eric Weinstein (2:18:18.260)
It's my guess.
Lex Fridman (2:18:19.900)
My guess is that what you're looking at was a government construct.
Eric Weinstein (2:18:24.940)
It may have been our government, it may have been a joint government project, maybe somebody
Lex Fridman (2:18:28.500)
else's government.
Eric Weinstein (2:18:29.500)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (2:18:31.300)
I believe that in part, we don't really understand Robert Maxwell.
Lex Fridman (2:18:37.140)
Sorry, who's Robert Maxwell?
Lex Fridman (2:18:39.580)
Ghislaine Maxwell's father was very active in scientific publishing.
Eric Weinstein (2:18:44.700)
I don't know where peer review came from.
Eric Weinstein (2:18:46.500)
I would love to run down the relationship between peer review and Robert Maxwell.
Eric Weinstein (2:18:50.300)
I would love to run down the missing fortune of Robert Maxwell and the mysterious fortune
Lex Fridman (2:18:56.100)
of Jeffrey Epstein because I don't think Jeffrey Epstein ever ran a hedge fund.
Eric Weinstein (2:19:00.700)
I don't think he was a money advisor the way people claimed.
Lex Fridman (2:19:04.900)
There's two things I want to talk about.
Eric Weinstein (2:19:06.540)
One is the shallow conversations of woke identity politics that you're referring to seems to
Eric Weinstein (2:19:14.060)
be removing everyone's ability, no, everyone's willingness to talk about like, what the hell
Lex Fridman (2:19:22.140)
is this person and how is he allowed?
Lex Fridman (2:19:25.260)
Most importantly, how do we prevent it in the future?
Eric Weinstein (2:19:30.180)
From the individual perspective, the question for me is the same question I ask about 1930s
Lex Fridman (2:19:36.060)
Nazi Germany.
Eric Weinstein (2:19:37.060)
I've been reading way too much probably or not enough about that period currently.
Lex Fridman (2:19:41.700)
If I was in Germany at that time, what is the heroic action to take?
Lex Fridman (2:19:47.260)
When I think about MIT with Jeffrey Epstein, what is the heroic action to take?
Lex Fridman (2:19:51.620)
We're not talking about virtue signaling action.
Eric Weinstein (2:19:53.420)
You wouldn't know what to do.
Lex Fridman (2:19:54.600)
I would not know what you're up against, Lex.
Eric Weinstein (2:19:57.060)
You're not hearing me.
Lex Fridman (2:19:58.840)
The problem here is what was Jeffrey Epstein?
Eric Weinstein (2:20:02.140)
Well, that question might be the heroic action to take.
Lex Fridman (2:20:05.940)
That's all I'm trying to say.
Eric Weinstein (2:20:06.940)
I'm just trying to get my first question.
Lex Fridman (2:20:08.340)
You have to map the silence with Jeffrey Epstein.
Lex Fridman (2:20:10.980)
What you're describing is a map of the silence at MIT.
Eric Weinstein (2:20:16.020)
Well, is there a map of the silence in Washington state around Jeffrey Epstein, the Bay Area,
Lex Fridman (2:20:24.140)
New York City?
Lex Fridman (2:20:26.180)
The amount of silence around Jeffrey Epstein should be telling you everything.
Eric Weinstein (2:20:31.600)
The number of dogs that don't bark is like nothing we've ever seen.
Lex Fridman (2:20:36.500)
You're exactly correct, but I want to know what is it telling us?
Eric Weinstein (2:20:40.340)
Because what it's telling me is not some kind of conspiracy, but more a disappointing weakness.
Lex Fridman (2:20:49.620)
Not some kind of conspiracy?
Eric Weinstein (2:20:50.620)
It's not some kind of conspiracy, but...
Lex Fridman (2:20:52.900)
You've got to be kidding.
Lex Fridman (2:20:55.060)
You're so afraid of saying the word conspiracy that you don't think it's a conspiracy?
Eric Weinstein (2:20:58.820)
I personally, I just think it's people who I thought were my heroes just being weak.
Eric Weinstein (2:21:04.660)
No.
Lex Fridman (2:21:06.020)
Be of good cheer, sir.
Lex Fridman (2:21:08.180)
A cheer?
Lex Fridman (2:21:09.180)
Be of good cheer.
Eric Weinstein (2:21:10.180)
Be of good cheer.
Lex Fridman (2:21:11.180)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:21:12.180)
You think that there's a conspiracy?
Lex Fridman (2:21:13.180)
I think there is a conspiracy.
Eric Weinstein (2:21:15.180)
That'd be a very impressive one.
Lex Fridman (2:21:18.460)
That's the scale of it.
Eric Weinstein (2:21:20.180)
I tend to believe that large scale can only be an emergent phenomena.
Lex Fridman (2:21:25.580)
Really?
Eric Weinstein (2:21:26.580)
I find this so fascinating.
Lex Fridman (2:21:27.580)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (2:21:28.580)
Because I always see you as like a logic and love drive your soul.
Lex Fridman (2:21:35.140)
You're very logical.
Eric Weinstein (2:21:36.140)
You're relentless.
Lex Fridman (2:21:37.140)
You've got a lot of love in your heart.
Lex Fridman (2:21:38.660)
I believe that if you would review the video, where is it from?
Lex Fridman (2:21:41.780)
Dubai or Abu Dhabi of the mysterious hit on the hotel guest?
Lex Fridman (2:21:47.180)
You ever seen this thing?
Lex Fridman (2:21:48.180)
No.
Lex Fridman (2:21:49.180)
What happened?
Eric Weinstein (2:21:50.180)
It's the assassination in 2010, 10 years ago, of Mahmoud Al Mabou, something like that,
Eric Weinstein (2:21:57.460)
in Dubai where I believe 26 separate individuals on multiple teams are shown converging coming
Eric Weinstein (2:22:07.580)
in from all over the world on false passports, pretending to be tennis players or business
Eric Weinstein (2:22:15.440)
people or vacationers.
Eric Weinstein (2:22:19.740)
All of these teams have different functions and they murder this guy in his hotel room.
Eric Weinstein (2:22:27.940)
The Dubai, I guess, chief of police or security officer was so angered that he put together
Lex Fridman (2:22:35.180)
this amazing video that says, we can completely detail what you did.
Eric Weinstein (2:22:39.740)
We caught you on closed circuit TV.
Eric Weinstein (2:22:42.640)
We don't know exactly who you are because your disguises and your false passports, but
Eric Weinstein (2:22:46.860)
yeah, 26 people converged to kill one.
Lex Fridman (2:22:51.100)
No, I don't believe you.
Eric Weinstein (2:22:53.520)
I don't believe after COINTELPRO and Operation Paperclip and Operation Mockingbird.
Lex Fridman (2:23:02.820)
I don't know whether I should even bring up Rex 84.
Eric Weinstein (2:23:07.620)
To not believe in conspiracies is an idiocy.
Lex Fridman (2:23:11.660)
So you have a sense that evil can be as competent or more competent.
Eric Weinstein (2:23:18.220)
First of all, when evil wants to operate at scale, it needs to make sure that people don't
Lex Fridman (2:23:22.660)
try to figure out evil.
Eric Weinstein (2:23:25.140)
When evil operates at scale, from first principles, you have to realize that evil must not want
Lex Fridman (2:23:32.380)
it investigated.
Eric Weinstein (2:23:35.140)
The most efficient way to keep yourself from being investigated, if you are an evil institutional
Eric Weinstein (2:23:42.200)
player who needs to do this repeatedly, is to invest in a world in which no one can afford
Eric Weinstein (2:23:47.700)
to say the word conspiracy.
Lex Fridman (2:23:49.940)
You'll notice that there is a special radioactivity around the word conspiracy.
Eric Weinstein (2:23:54.500)
We have provable conspiracies.
Lex Fridman (2:23:56.140)
We have admitted to conspiracies.
Eric Weinstein (2:23:57.820)
You have been invited to conspiracy.
Lex Fridman (2:24:00.020)
There is no shortage.
Eric Weinstein (2:24:01.260)
Conspiracies are everywhere.
Lex Fridman (2:24:02.860)
Some of them are mundane.
Eric Weinstein (2:24:04.220)
Some of them are like price fixing cartels, or trade groups, or generally speaking, conspiracies.
Lex Fridman (2:24:11.740)
So the first thing you have to realize is that all of us are in a memetic complex where
Eric Weinstein (2:24:19.540)
you can be taken off the chessboard by saying, conspiracy theorists, get done.
Lex Fridman (2:24:23.940)
It's like a one line proof.
Eric Weinstein (2:24:25.000)
We don't have to listen to Lex.
Lex Fridman (2:24:26.220)
He said he was a conspiracy theorist on this show.
Eric Weinstein (2:24:30.500)
That is partially distorting our conversation.
Eric Weinstein (2:24:32.600)
If you want to ask me about Jeffrey Epstein, you have to agree with me that that is a logical
Eric Weinstein (2:24:37.060)
description of what you would have to have if you wanted to commit conspiracies is that
Lex Fridman (2:24:41.220)
you have to make sure that people are dissuaded from investigating this.
Lex Fridman (2:24:46.380)
But it's a fascinatingly difficult idea then because the world with conspiracy theories
Lex Fridman (2:24:53.300)
and the world without conspiracy theories to the shallow glance looks the same.
Eric Weinstein (2:24:58.900)
Well, my point.
Eric Weinstein (2:25:00.160)
There is responsible conspiracy theorize where you look at the history of unearthed conspiracies
Lex Fridman (2:25:08.460)
and just like you would with any other topic, just think about how different the rules in
Lex Fridman (2:25:12.460)
your mind are for conspiracy theorizing versus X theorizing where X can be anything, right?
Eric Weinstein (2:25:20.100)
It's like if I say to you, um, I can say the statement that average weight is not the same
Lex Fridman (2:25:28.420)
between widely separated populations.
Eric Weinstein (2:25:31.940)
You'd say, yeah, I'd say average height is not the same between widely separated populations.
Lex Fridman (2:25:37.660)
You'd say, yeah.
Eric Weinstein (2:25:38.660)
Then I say, in fact, no continuous variable that has that shows variation should be expected
Lex Fridman (2:25:44.700)
to be identical between widely separate.
Lex Fridman (2:25:46.780)
Of course they're like IQ, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on, right?
Lex Fridman (2:25:52.300)
So we have a violent reaction to specific topics.
Lex Fridman (2:25:56.800)
So the first thing I want to do is just to notice that conspiracy has that built into
Lex Fridman (2:26:02.940)
everyone's mind.
Eric Weinstein (2:26:05.240)
That's really important to state.
Eric Weinstein (2:26:06.620)
Yeah, that's, it's very interesting that, and as a prerequisite, as you're saying, that
Eric Weinstein (2:26:13.100)
would be the first step.
Eric Weinstein (2:26:14.100)
If you wanted to pull off a conspiracy in a competent way, that's, you would have to
Eric Weinstein (2:26:20.620)
first convince the world.
Eric Weinstein (2:26:21.620)
I just watched the film 1971 about my favorite conspiracy of all time, I highly recommend
Eric Weinstein (2:26:27.500)
it 1971 well, the film is entitled 1971 and it's about the citizens committee to investigate
Eric Weinstein (2:26:34.680)
the FBI, which was a run by a student of Murray Gelman, a physicist and broke into FBI offices
Eric Weinstein (2:26:43.000)
in Pennsylvania to steal files, which allowed freedom of information requests that discovered
Lex Fridman (2:26:48.800)
a huge conspiracy.
Eric Weinstein (2:26:49.800)
It was a conspiracy that unearthed a conspiracy inside the federal government, a double conspiracy
Lex Fridman (2:26:55.700)
story, which launched multiple conspiracies.
Eric Weinstein (2:27:00.620)
I think that the problem with modern Americans is that they are so timid that they don't
Lex Fridman (2:27:05.620)
even learn about the history of conspiracies that we have absolutely proven.
Lex Fridman (2:27:10.860)
So with that done, Jeff Epstein, in my opinion, represented somebody's construction.
Lex Fridman (2:27:19.360)
I don't think that scary to think about.
Eric Weinstein (2:27:21.500)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:27:22.500)
Well, what part of the story isn't scary?
Eric Weinstein (2:27:24.940)
I in part did something which I imagine may get me destroyed because I was more worried
Lex Fridman (2:27:31.020)
about being destroyed by somebody else I had a conversation with around Jeff Epstein, right?
Lex Fridman (2:27:37.700)
So I'm just trying to like get, let it be known that I don't know anything more than
Lex Fridman (2:27:41.580)
I've already said.
Eric Weinstein (2:27:43.300)
Now, your friends at MIT, their problem is that Jeff Epstein showed up as the only person
Lex Fridman (2:27:51.600)
capable of continuing US scientific tradition.
Eric Weinstein (2:27:58.100)
You see, the US scientific tradition is a little bit like the Russian.
Lex Fridman (2:28:04.260)
It's combative, okay?
Lex Fridman (2:28:09.200)
And we're a free society and we act like a free society.
Lex Fridman (2:28:12.460)
We're a rich society and we research like we're a rich society.
Eric Weinstein (2:28:15.780)
That is historically, and then came the 1970s and William Proxmire and the Golden Fleece
Eric Weinstein (2:28:21.180)
Awards and the idea that we have to, we're paying too much and these are welfare queens
Lex Fridman (2:28:25.540)
and lab coats and blah, blah, blah, blah.
Lex Fridman (2:28:28.060)
We need more transparency, more oversight.
Eric Weinstein (2:28:31.460)
Everything went to hell and the national culture of US science was lost.
Lex Fridman (2:28:37.480)
The thing that produced all this prosperity and security and power was lost.
Lex Fridman (2:28:43.420)
And then Jeff Epstein shows up and a tiny number of funders, maybe Fred Kavli, maybe
Lex Fridman (2:28:52.860)
Yuri Milner, maybe who else would be in this category?
Eric Weinstein (2:28:59.660)
Peter Thiel to an extent, Howard Hughes would be the largest of these things, which has
Eric Weinstein (2:29:05.480)
different grant structures than the NIH, gave people a modicum of risk taking ability.
Eric Weinstein (2:29:12.300)
Okay, well, when Jeff Epstein showed up, everybody wanted to take risk in science.
Lex Fridman (2:29:20.060)
And suddenly a charismatic billionaire says, hey, I can make that work for you.
Eric Weinstein (2:29:24.300)
Here's $100,000, go research something crazy.
Eric Weinstein (2:29:27.860)
Well, that money was supposed to be provided by the federal government under the terms
Eric Weinstein (2:29:34.640)
of the endless frontier compact between the federal government and the universities and
Lex Fridman (2:29:39.100)
the federal government and the taxpayers Welch.
Eric Weinstein (2:29:42.100)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (2:29:43.780)
So that's one place to lay the blame for Jeff Epstein as at the failure of the federal government
Eric Weinstein (2:29:50.540)
to honor its commitment.
Lex Fridman (2:29:53.020)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (2:29:54.020)
Right.
Lex Fridman (2:29:55.020)
So the universities became psychopathic.
Eric Weinstein (2:29:57.960)
It's not like everybody doesn't remember what we're supposed to be doing to be moral, but
Lex Fridman (2:30:02.500)
the point was there wasn't enough money to be moral.
Lex Fridman (2:30:04.980)
So it was time to, uh, to eye each other as a source of protein, as I like to say.
Lex Fridman (2:30:11.480)
And in that process, Jeffrey Epstein said, Hey, come to my world.
Eric Weinstein (2:30:17.780)
We can do it like we used to do.
Lex Fridman (2:30:22.000)
So in part, my point is, is that almost none of your colleagues at MIT have that kind of
Eric Weinstein (2:30:28.900)
religious commitment to science that they're willing to go down with ship science.
Eric Weinstein (2:30:35.760)
The Galileo Galilei thing became very important to science because occasionally you just have
Eric Weinstein (2:30:41.060)
to say, look, this isn't about me and you, there isn't enough money in the world to buy
Lex Fridman (2:30:48.340)
the kind of legacy I want to leave to this planet.
Eric Weinstein (2:30:53.340)
This is one of the great things about science, you know, potentially it's worth dying for
Lex Fridman (2:30:56.660)
yeah.
Eric Weinstein (2:31:00.500)
I'm glad you said it.
Lex Fridman (2:31:03.380)
Science is one of the things that is best that's worth dying for.
Eric Weinstein (2:31:08.140)
I mean, I'm not eager to martyr myself, but I've certainly risked my health, my fortune,
Eric Weinstein (2:31:17.300)
you know, I've, I've destroyed myself economically over science and, um, and my, my, my, my need
Eric Weinstein (2:31:26.860)
to oppose these sons of bitches in chaired professorships who are destroying our system
Lex Fridman (2:31:30.760)
along with everyone else.
Eric Weinstein (2:31:32.940)
Let me, um, bring in grandmaster into this.
Lex Fridman (2:31:38.980)
Oogway, master Oogway.
Eric Weinstein (2:31:41.620)
I think he's a grandmaster.
Lex Fridman (2:31:45.100)
That would make him a chess playing turtle.
Eric Weinstein (2:31:46.940)
Well, I've read some wikipedia and she was a master.
Eric Weinstein (2:31:52.460)
There's apparently only one grandmaster and that's anyway, is the phrase grandmaster ever
Lex Fridman (2:31:58.300)
uttered in the script?
Lex Fridman (2:31:59.300)
I don't think so.
Eric Weinstein (2:32:00.300)
I don't think so.
Lex Fridman (2:32:01.300)
But there's a story.
Eric Weinstein (2:32:02.300)
Oh, there's, there's off off script cannon.
Lex Fridman (2:32:05.420)
I'm going to call Glenn burger right now and find out if any of this is true.
Eric Weinstein (2:32:08.820)
All right.
Eric Weinstein (2:32:09.820)
You're not supposed to call up my journalistic integrity, um, but master Oogway, master Oogway
Eric Weinstein (2:32:16.220)
he says a couple of things I'd like to bring up with you.
Lex Fridman (2:32:20.780)
So one as part of a longer quote recommends, uh, that you should, uh, find a battle worth
Eric Weinstein (2:32:27.740)
fighting.
Lex Fridman (2:32:31.900)
We've talked about several battles just now.
Lex Fridman (2:32:35.820)
What is the battle worth fighting for, for Eric Weinstein in the next few months, in
Lex Fridman (2:32:42.300)
the next year?
Eric Weinstein (2:32:43.700)
There's only one, well, it's, it's the Moses, it's the Moses thing.
Lex Fridman (2:32:52.940)
It's time to go.
Eric Weinstein (2:32:53.940)
It's time to leave.
Lex Fridman (2:32:54.940)
This place is over to get off the planet.
Eric Weinstein (2:32:57.100)
I, yeah, I, I, I freak people out when I say that, but like, look at your world.
Lex Fridman (2:33:03.600)
You just got introduced to the problem of a virus.
Eric Weinstein (2:33:06.460)
Wait, wait till it's fusion devices and you understand what it means to have one interconnected
Lex Fridman (2:33:11.420)
planet with no uncorrelated experiments happening anywhere else.
Lex Fridman (2:33:17.100)
You know?
Lex Fridman (2:33:18.100)
So do you see the foray, your work in physics and maybe like the echoes of it in a ship
Lex Fridman (2:33:26.260)
Elon?
Eric Weinstein (2:33:28.540)
Everybody who has a possible plan to avoid what is coming if we don't have one should
Lex Fridman (2:33:34.880)
work on the plan that he, she thinks best, right?
Lex Fridman (2:33:41.700)
So Elon wants to do rockets.
Eric Weinstein (2:33:43.880)
People misinterpret me.
Lex Fridman (2:33:45.020)
I meta Eric says, I don't think that's a smart plan.
Eric Weinstein (2:33:51.740)
Regular Eric says all people who have hope should do that thing.
Lex Fridman (2:33:59.260)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (2:34:00.260)
At least it's Mars, man, at least it's the moon and Mars and maybe Titan and whatever.
Lex Fridman (2:34:05.020)
And I don't think it'll work and it doesn't make sense and it looks silly, but that's
Eric Weinstein (2:34:08.220)
exactly the kind of fight worth fighting.
Lex Fridman (2:34:09.980)
But it's, it's the kind of fits for the same reason that I went on Brett's unity, 2020
Eric Weinstein (2:34:14.420)
thing when I didn't think it had a hope in hell and people are, you know, are making
Lex Fridman (2:34:17.200)
fun of it.
Eric Weinstein (2:34:18.200)
It's like, we got to do things that make, that make us feel dumb and silly and childish
Lex Fridman (2:34:22.640)
that it possibly have a hope of working.
Eric Weinstein (2:34:24.780)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (2:34:25.780)
So everybody should do something.
Eric Weinstein (2:34:27.260)
My version of this, I am the most hopeful about because I wouldn't have chosen to do
Lex Fridman (2:34:31.500)
if I thought that Daniel Schmack did burgers wisdom project was a better hope.
Eric Weinstein (2:34:37.000)
I do that.
Lex Fridman (2:34:39.000)
It's more down to earth in a certain way.
Eric Weinstein (2:34:41.740)
I just think that it's more probable.
Eric Weinstein (2:34:43.900)
Look, we got from a powered flight with the Wright brothers and wind tunnels to sending
Eric Weinstein (2:34:49.540)
back images from the surface of Titan via Huygens Cassini in less than a century.
Lex Fridman (2:34:55.580)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (2:34:56.580)
So what we can do if we can change the laws of physics is something we can't even conceive
Lex Fridman (2:35:02.660)
of.
Eric Weinstein (2:35:03.660)
It may be that it buys us nothing and at least we'll, we will know why we died on this planet
Lex Fridman (2:35:11.900)
as a small aside.
Eric Weinstein (2:35:13.140)
I think this is not the right time to take the full journey, but I feel like you'll guide
Lex Fridman (2:35:19.700)
me like master way did.
Lex Fridman (2:35:22.620)
And I'm the Kung Fu Panda.
Lex Fridman (2:35:24.300)
They only have one conversation.
Eric Weinstein (2:35:27.820)
We're on our, like, we didn't, we didn't, well, we're, we're, we're Jews and they weren't.
Lex Fridman (2:35:33.120)
So we talked too much, but the guide doesn't have to be with words.
Lex Fridman (2:35:37.900)
You don't think Poe was Jewish?
Lex Fridman (2:35:40.700)
It's debatable.
Eric Weinstein (2:35:41.700)
We'll have to go back to the Wikipedia.
Eric Weinstein (2:35:46.820)
Is there, um, that you would guide me through some more intuition about the source code,
Eric Weinstein (2:35:55.600)
the source code of our universe.
Lex Fridman (2:35:58.060)
Can you comment on where, since we last spoke, where your thinking has been, has roamed around
Lex Fridman (2:36:03.500)
geometric unity around that work in physics in this fight?
Eric Weinstein (2:36:08.300)
I'm trying to figure out when to release it and how, I mean, I've released the video and
Eric Weinstein (2:36:15.460)
the video, quite honestly, I think it has a very bizarre reaction.
Eric Weinstein (2:36:19.860)
I think one of the things that I've learned from the video, cause the video is coming
Eric Weinstein (2:36:23.180)
up on half a million views on YouTube alone to say nothing of the, um, the audio, but
Lex Fridman (2:36:31.060)
yeah, it produced a very strange reaction.
Eric Weinstein (2:36:34.740)
One of the things I don't think that I properly understood is that most physicists don't talk
Lex Fridman (2:36:41.460)
in this geometric language.
Eric Weinstein (2:36:46.700)
I thought that more of the physics world probably had converted over into manifolds, bundles,
Lex Fridman (2:36:52.900)
differential forms, connections, curvature, tensors, et cetera.
Lex Fridman (2:36:57.180)
And I, I saw a lot of the comments would say things like, I have a PhD in theoretical physics
Lex Fridman (2:37:02.260)
and I'm not even familiar with all of these concepts.
Lex Fridman (2:37:05.220)
And I think that was probably a distortion coming from living in Cambridge, Massachusetts
Lex Fridman (2:37:11.980)
for almost 20 years.
Lex Fridman (2:37:14.860)
So what's the solution to that?
Lex Fridman (2:37:16.340)
Well, I mean, I can make this make as much sense as anybody needs to.
Eric Weinstein (2:37:21.300)
My problem is my calculation is that as long as the boomers are still in charge, the same
Eric Weinstein (2:37:31.300)
people have these perverse incentives on them where they've invested in these programs that
Eric Weinstein (2:37:35.980)
didn't work.
Lex Fridman (2:37:36.980)
So they're extremely hostile and kind of difficult to deal with.
Eric Weinstein (2:37:41.860)
The fact that I'm not a physicist, um, has its own set of issues, which is that effectively
Lex Fridman (2:37:47.300)
it's like the hermit kingdom.
Eric Weinstein (2:37:48.520)
They don't get any visitors and they don't necessarily want somebody, you know, rolling
Lex Fridman (2:37:55.180)
up and saying, I know how to do physics.
Lex Fridman (2:37:56.980)
So I'm, I'm always very clear.
Lex Fridman (2:37:58.300)
I'm not a physicist.
Eric Weinstein (2:38:01.820)
That said, if I wait too long, I don't know that theoretical physics is really going to
Eric Weinstein (2:38:06.180)
exist after the boomers because everyone in you, I think you had Wolfram on your program.
Eric Weinstein (2:38:12.220)
I don't remember whether he said this to you or Brian Keating, but he said something like
Lex Fridman (2:38:16.020)
everybody got discouraged.
Eric Weinstein (2:38:17.260)
It was too hard.
Lex Fridman (2:38:20.820)
Can't do that.
Eric Weinstein (2:38:21.820)
Guys.
Lex Fridman (2:38:22.820)
We cannot do that.
Eric Weinstein (2:38:23.820)
There's something about the renormalization revolution that innervated the physics community
Eric Weinstein (2:38:27.500)
because it taught them just because you can see in this energy regime doesn't mean you
Eric Weinstein (2:38:31.740)
can extrapolate somewhere else unless you understand how, you know, coupling constants
Lex Fridman (2:38:36.300)
run and what kind of a UV fixed points exist, blah, blah, blah.
Eric Weinstein (2:38:41.740)
Somehow that discouraged people from guessing from believing everything became an effective
Lex Fridman (2:38:46.020)
theory.
Eric Weinstein (2:38:47.020)
The beauty of the effective theory wasn't taken to be really the beauty of the universe,
Lex Fridman (2:38:51.740)
just the beauty of an energy level.
Lex Fridman (2:38:53.420)
So I think that renormalization was one of the most important revolutions that ever happened
Lex Fridman (2:38:58.940)
in science.
Lex Fridman (2:38:59.940)
And also its interpretation by the physics community was catastrophic.
Eric Weinstein (2:39:04.300)
Well, the story I'm telling myself is that in part I'm waiting for them to get weaker.
Lex Fridman (2:39:10.200)
But on the other hand, I don't know that we have any time left.
Lex Fridman (2:39:12.380)
And so are you also thinking about ways of, uh, you know, you know, the, the podcast medium
Eric Weinstein (2:39:19.800)
is revolutionary for public for discourse for what, I mean, I don't even know the right
Lex Fridman (2:39:24.820)
words for it.
Lex Fridman (2:39:25.820)
Are you thinking of revolutionary ideas for re energizing the physics community?
Lex Fridman (2:39:30.700)
So basically for communicating, look, I have a fantasy, okay?
Eric Weinstein (2:39:36.980)
My fantasy is that all of these things are the same problem.
Lex Fridman (2:39:40.040)
And it goes back to this thing that I read about in, in Fineman's, um, books about Tartaglia.
Lex Fridman (2:39:46.960)
They asked him this question, like, what's the greatest thing that ever happened in math?
Lex Fridman (2:39:50.060)
And he says, Tartaglia is solution of the cubic.
Eric Weinstein (2:39:52.900)
It's just like the weirdest answer.
Lex Fridman (2:39:55.860)
So you're like, okay, I'll bite.
Lex Fridman (2:39:58.100)
Why is it Tartaglia solution of the cubic?
Lex Fridman (2:40:00.380)
And he said, because it was the first time a modern person had done something profound
Eric Weinstein (2:40:04.260)
that the ancients had failed to do.
Lex Fridman (2:40:06.300)
I was like, Oh, I got it.
Eric Weinstein (2:40:09.460)
It's the thing that opens up new psychology that says maybe things are possible again.
Eric Weinstein (2:40:14.460)
It's a new orchard, new orchard, new farmers, new people who can find fruit that they can
Eric Weinstein (2:40:22.500)
pick.
Lex Fridman (2:40:23.820)
And once you have one person do that, very often you get many, like one of the things
Eric Weinstein (2:40:27.460)
that we were talking about with Eddie Van Halen.
Eric Weinstein (2:40:29.660)
The reason that he created a revolution and somebody like Roy Buchanan did not is that
Eric Weinstein (2:40:35.260)
you could follow Eddie Van Halen.
Lex Fridman (2:40:36.960)
You couldn't pioneer it.
Lex Fridman (2:40:38.220)
And maybe you couldn't play as well and as cleanly and as fast and as inventively, but
Lex Fridman (2:40:42.340)
you could follow once you understand that there is a tapping principle.
Eric Weinstein (2:40:47.180)
It was just the beginning of something called percussive guitar.
Eric Weinstein (2:40:53.340)
My belief is that once we start innovating in the present, everything will come because
Eric Weinstein (2:41:00.300)
everything that around us is screwed up on that.
Eric Weinstein (2:41:04.820)
Let me with one last question, bring back master Oogway, the probably the most famous
Eric Weinstein (2:41:10.580)
quote of his, right, with yesterday's history, tomorrow's a mystery, but today is a gift.
Lex Fridman (2:41:17.660)
That is why it is called the present.
Eric Weinstein (2:41:20.660)
It's very beautiful.
Lex Fridman (2:41:21.660)
Although I would have gone with quit, don't quit, noodles, don't noodles.
Eric Weinstein (2:41:27.420)
I feel like people need to know way too much context for that to make sense.
Lex Fridman (2:41:33.420)
It's your audience.
Eric Weinstein (2:41:34.420)
To hell with context.
Lex Fridman (2:41:35.740)
Yep.
Eric Weinstein (2:41:36.740)
They'll figure it out.
Lex Fridman (2:41:37.740)
Let me ask, what are you grateful for today?
Lex Fridman (2:41:41.820)
What is your present?
Eric Weinstein (2:41:44.060)
We've talked about a lot of dark things, but what brings you joy to your heart that I can't
Lex Fridman (2:41:52.020)
believe I'm lucky enough to have this?
Eric Weinstein (2:41:55.420)
You know, Nyla and Zev, my wife, Pia, the fact that we've got our health, all the little
Eric Weinstein (2:42:04.420)
things, saying grace after meals.
Eric Weinstein (2:42:08.460)
You're coming over for Friday night Shabbat dinner, so we'll bench together and say grace.
Eric Weinstein (2:42:13.720)
It's important to just, like this bottle of water in front of me, I made a point of just
Eric Weinstein (2:42:23.940)
thinking about how wonderful it is that there's a quenching bottle that happens to be placed
Eric Weinstein (2:42:27.500)
in front of me because somebody cared.
Lex Fridman (2:42:30.060)
That small thing made a difference to me.
Eric Weinstein (2:42:37.300)
I still have strength for the fight so far.
Lex Fridman (2:42:40.820)
I think that's something I'm grateful for.
Eric Weinstein (2:42:43.060)
I can't believe that I'm not more beaten down after all of this nonsense.
Lex Fridman (2:42:51.100)
I have the most interesting set of friends.
Eric Weinstein (2:42:54.220)
I really do.
Eric Weinstein (2:42:56.940)
I'm not that rich by monetary standards, but if there were friend billionaires, Forbes
Eric Weinstein (2:43:01.980)
would be all over my ass.
Lex Fridman (2:43:07.300)
I just can't believe who I can talk to, you know, at the drop of a hat.
Lex Fridman (2:43:12.540)
And I'm really grateful.
Eric Weinstein (2:43:22.500)
I think this is the end of something profound, and it's the beginning of whatever is next.
Lex Fridman (2:43:28.880)
And whatever is next could be terminal.
Lex Fridman (2:43:30.820)
Whatever is next could be amazing.
Eric Weinstein (2:43:32.740)
Whatever is next could be a return to the horrors of the early 20th century that doesn't
Eric Weinstein (2:43:37.820)
manage to go totally catastrophic, but takes hundreds of millions of lives in the process.
Eric Weinstein (2:43:45.260)
I'm grateful to having half of my life in the rearview mirror.
Lex Fridman (2:43:50.900)
Maybe it took place in a bubble, and maybe it was unsustainable.
Lex Fridman (2:43:54.820)
But it was nice to be able to move around the world without a mask.
Eric Weinstein (2:44:00.100)
It was nice to be able to see a little bit of the world, even if it was from a cot in
Eric Weinstein (2:44:05.780)
a hostel in some country.
Lex Fridman (2:44:09.340)
To fall in love.
Eric Weinstein (2:44:10.340)
Absolutely.
Lex Fridman (2:44:11.340)
It was a good life.
Eric Weinstein (2:44:15.180)
Find the last Indian Jewish girl left.
Lex Fridman (2:44:17.620)
Who knew?
Eric Weinstein (2:44:19.580)
You're a lucky guy.
Lex Fridman (2:44:21.900)
Well, let me just say…
Eric Weinstein (2:44:23.100)
Actually, there's something I wanted to just say before you get to that.
Lex Fridman (2:44:26.540)
I forgot to say something.
Eric Weinstein (2:44:29.060)
Falling in love with an intellectual collaborator is a special thing that not everybody gets
Lex Fridman (2:44:34.540)
a chance to do.
Eric Weinstein (2:44:36.340)
I think when I met Pia, I fell deeply in love with her, all her normal characteristics.
Lex Fridman (2:44:44.020)
Pia and I had an antagonistic relationship around geometry and economics.
Lex Fridman (2:44:50.780)
And then weirdly, just like in a buddy picture where in the first half of the film they hate
Eric Weinstein (2:44:55.820)
each other, the two fields were fighting with each other, cats and dogs, and finally the
Eric Weinstein (2:45:01.140)
sexual tension clearly was so thick you could cut it with a knife.
Lex Fridman (2:45:04.900)
And we came up with geometric marginalism, which is this other theory, not geometric
Eric Weinstein (2:45:08.940)
unity, which allowed me to inhabit space with somebody who I already knew intimately and
Eric Weinstein (2:45:18.140)
had fallen in love with, and to see the quality and beauty of their mind and to play and to
Eric Weinstein (2:45:23.700)
dance.
Eric Weinstein (2:45:24.700)
It's sort of the intellectual version of the tango, one of the most romantic periods
Eric Weinstein (2:45:29.660)
of my life that doesn't fall into most people's experience.
Lex Fridman (2:45:32.740)
So that was a chance to see something totally unexpected, haven't really had it since
Eric Weinstein (2:45:38.140)
because she doesn't want to revisit the material, but something I'm super grateful for that's
Lex Fridman (2:45:42.820)
very particular and unique.
Lex Fridman (2:45:45.580)
But to flip the tables on you, for hundreds of thousands, I think millions of people,
Eric Weinstein (2:45:53.700)
I can speak, me and them are really grateful, one, that you exist, and two, sorry, for your
Eric Weinstein (2:46:02.780)
podcast and I do hope your voice in some form continues to reverberate, I think, at least
Lex Fridman (2:46:14.140)
in the 2021s and beyond, even if it takes a brief pause.
Eric Weinstein (2:46:19.900)
We're pausing at the moment.
Lex Fridman (2:46:21.660)
We've recorded some for future episodes and I'm recording for you.
Eric Weinstein (2:46:26.260)
I really appreciate that.
Lex Fridman (2:46:28.260)
But earnestness trades at a discount at the moment because it's easy to make fun of it.
Eric Weinstein (2:46:34.620)
One of the things I like best about you is that you and I are both fairly earnest.
Eric Weinstein (2:46:38.980)
We may joke and jab, but honestly, there's a project here and a world to win, as they
Eric Weinstein (2:46:43.580)
say.
Eric Weinstein (2:46:45.100)
The thing that I want my and your listeners to know is that I'm not stepping away from
Eric Weinstein (2:46:52.940)
the podcast because I don't appreciate that people really want more.
Lex Fridman (2:47:01.260)
This is hugely financially costly to me.
Eric Weinstein (2:47:05.220)
I want to make sure you guys are getting the best that I can do, and destroying myself
Lex Fridman (2:47:12.500)
right in front of an election, I think Lex is incorrect.
Eric Weinstein (2:47:16.060)
I think that the forces that are trying to make sure that there aren't any planes in
Eric Weinstein (2:47:20.380)
the sky that aren't either colored red or colored blue is a big danger given how angry
Eric Weinstein (2:47:27.580)
I am at the system.
Eric Weinstein (2:47:29.140)
I don't want to be removed from the chess board because if nobody's going to talk about
Eric Weinstein (2:47:32.260)
Jeff Epstein, there need to be people.
Eric Weinstein (2:47:33.900)
If nobody's going to talk about various things that we've talked about on these programs,
Eric Weinstein (2:47:38.060)
I want to make sure that I'm there.
Lex Fridman (2:47:39.900)
Do I think that this is potentially an existential election?
Eric Weinstein (2:47:42.420)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (2:47:43.420)
Am I positive that I know that my way to bet is the right way out?
Eric Weinstein (2:47:45.820)
No, I'm not.
Lex Fridman (2:47:47.420)
I don't know, people.
Eric Weinstein (2:47:48.420)
I just don't know.
Eric Weinstein (2:47:49.980)
Where we are right now seems so dumb and so catastrophic in terms of how it is chewing
Eric Weinstein (2:47:55.780)
up smart people that I decided it's really not about cowardice because it's hard for
Lex Fridman (2:48:03.020)
me to restrain myself.
Eric Weinstein (2:48:04.260)
I have so many reactions every day.
Eric Weinstein (2:48:07.900)
This is really about trying to plan for all of our futures to make sure that I'm around.
Eric Weinstein (2:48:12.300)
I had a huge concern that what happened to Brett's Articles of Unity was going to happen
Lex Fridman (2:48:16.280)
to Brett.
Eric Weinstein (2:48:17.280)
It was going to happen to the YouTube channels.
Lex Fridman (2:48:19.380)
I want to make sure that we don't have all of our eggs in one basket.
Lex Fridman (2:48:22.840)
So if something goes wrong over there, that's the whole idea of the intellectual dark web,
Lex Fridman (2:48:27.020)
which is at some level a loose confederation.
Eric Weinstein (2:48:31.020)
It can become a strong confederation if somebody wants to back it and make it work.
Lex Fridman (2:48:35.220)
It can dissolve so that there really isn't anything.
Eric Weinstein (2:48:40.380)
The thing is to be hard to kill because ultimately, when the hit pieces come, they don't come
Lex Fridman (2:48:46.580)
for what it is that they're angry at you about.
Eric Weinstein (2:48:48.660)
They come for where they can get you.
Eric Weinstein (2:48:51.740)
It's very important that right in front of an election, the desire of the old system
Eric Weinstein (2:48:59.660)
to defend itself through reputational destruction is one of the most pernicious aspects of the
Lex Fridman (2:49:06.180)
new America.
Eric Weinstein (2:49:07.360)
We have to fight the ability to destroy reputations as a means of institutions keeping individuals
Eric Weinstein (2:49:14.440)
with podcasts and the ability to reach millions through Substack out of their domain.
Eric Weinstein (2:49:20.300)
I don't surrender this domain to them.
Eric Weinstein (2:49:22.380)
They have plenty of weaponry with which to fight us, and I believe that they could remove
Eric Weinstein (2:49:26.980)
you or me in an instant.
Eric Weinstein (2:49:28.740)
By the end of today, if they wanted us off the chessboard, we would be off the chessboard.
Eric Weinstein (2:49:32.980)
I know that's not your perspective.
Eric Weinstein (2:49:34.960)
My goal is to stay here as long as possible to make sure that you have enough of a counterbalancing
Eric Weinstein (2:49:41.440)
set of ideas and to let and help other podcasters start.
Eric Weinstein (2:49:48.620)
My hope is that that works, but long heroism, short martyrdom is a good motto for anyone,
Lex Fridman (2:49:56.540)
and I try to remember the short martyrdom part of that.
Lex Fridman (2:50:01.620)
First of all, beautifully put.
Eric Weinstein (2:50:03.180)
Second of all, a way to end the conversation and the disagreement, which is how you hook
Lex Fridman (2:50:08.100)
them for the next conversation to be continued.
Lex Fridman (2:50:11.260)
And Lex says …
Lex Fridman (2:50:12.260)
Eric, it's a huge honor.
Eric Weinstein (2:50:15.420)
Thank you once again.
Lex Fridman (2:50:16.420)
Lex, really appreciate it every time we get together.
Eric Weinstein (2:50:19.060)
Thanks, buddy.
Eric Weinstein (2:50:20.620)
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Eric Weinstein, and thank you to our
Eric Weinstein (2:50:24.460)
sponsors.
Eric Weinstein (2:50:25.460)
Grammarly, a service I use in my writing to check spelling, grammar, sentence structure
Lex Fridman (2:50:30.020)
and readability.
Eric Weinstein (2:50:31.020)
Sunbasket, a meal delivery service I use to add healthy variety to my culinary life.
Eric Weinstein (2:50:37.380)
SEMrush, the most advanced SEO optimization tool I've ever come across.
Lex Fridman (2:50:43.380)
I don't like looking at numbers, but someone should.
Eric Weinstein (2:50:46.420)
It helps you make good decisions.
Lex Fridman (2:50:48.600)
And finally, ExpressVPN, the VPN I've used for many years to protect my privacy on the
Eric Weinstein (2:50:54.500)
internet.
Eric Weinstein (2:50:55.980)
Please check out these sponsors in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast.
Eric Weinstein (2:51:00.860)
If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it with 5 Stars and Apple Podcast,
Eric Weinstein (2:51:06.140)
go on Spotify, support it on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter at lexfreedman.
Lex Fridman (2:51:12.220)
And now, let me leave you with some words from Leonard Cohen in the song titled, Hallelujah.
Eric Weinstein (2:51:18.540)
Well, maybe there's a God above, but all I've ever learned from love was how to shoot
Eric Weinstein (2:51:24.780)
somebody who outdrew you.
Lex Fridman (2:51:27.140)
And it's not a cry that you hear at night, it's not somebody who's seen the light,
Eric Weinstein (2:51:32.580)
it's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah.
Lex Fridman (2:51:37.740)
Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.
Lex Fridman (30:01.280)
and this is a long form part.
Lex Fridman (30:02.120)
It's Jimi Hendrix experience.
Eric Weinstein (30:03.600)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (30:04.440)
Yeah, so funny.
Eric Weinstein (30:05.760)
I hear you stole it from Joe Rogan.
Lex Fridman (30:07.240)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (30:10.020)
There's so many details.
Lex Fridman (30:11.520)
One, it hurt my soul on so many levels
Eric Weinstein (30:17.140)
that you can put a thumb over the guitar
Lex Fridman (30:20.120)
to play a note, to hold the note.
Lex Fridman (30:23.480)
And it doesn't, because I want it to be the Russian virtuoso
Lex Fridman (30:27.700)
that sits with his classical guitar in a perfect form,
Eric Weinstein (30:30.960)
plays really fast with the fingers,
Lex Fridman (30:32.720)
and then you want the thumb to be perfectly relaxed
Lex Fridman (30:36.240)
and supporting the neck.
Lex Fridman (30:37.080)
So that's the Russian conservatory student.
Eric Weinstein (30:39.000)
Conservatory student, yeah.
Lex Fridman (30:40.640)
Then there's the Russian wild man.
Lex Fridman (30:43.340)
Which one is that?
Lex Fridman (30:44.180)
Well, they're different Russian archetypes, right?
Lex Fridman (30:47.560)
So the completely idiosyncratic Russian
Lex Fridman (30:50.440)
is very different in a weird way from the,
Eric Weinstein (30:55.480)
I can do this backwards in any key in my sleep
Lex Fridman (30:58.540)
and in any time signature that you just snap your fingers.
Eric Weinstein (31:03.040)
We've discussed my piano tuner in previous episodes.
Lex Fridman (31:08.600)
No, no, that was offline conversation.
Eric Weinstein (31:10.480)
You told me the story.
Lex Fridman (31:11.640)
I should tell you the story.
Eric Weinstein (31:13.120)
You should retell the story.
Lex Fridman (31:14.440)
There I was in darkest Manhattan
Eric Weinstein (31:16.840)
with the world's shittiest, it wasn't even an upright,
Lex Fridman (31:19.960)
it was a spinet piano.
Eric Weinstein (31:21.760)
A friend had given it to me.
Lex Fridman (31:23.560)
The piano fell out of tune and I would have to tune it.
Lex Fridman (31:27.480)
And the only tuner I knew was this Russian guy
Lex Fridman (31:29.920)
and I hated dealing with him.
Eric Weinstein (31:31.520)
There was something about his attitude
Lex Fridman (31:32.840)
that just really rubbed me the wrong way.
Lex Fridman (31:35.160)
So anyway, my wife says, tune that thing.
Lex Fridman (31:37.320)
So we get the piano tuner to come and he's tuning this.
Lex Fridman (31:40.600)
He's like, are you sure you wanna tune this piece of shit?
Lex Fridman (31:44.280)
Okay, fine.
Lex Fridman (31:45.440)
So he's like, okay, it's your money.
Lex Fridman (31:48.320)
The phone rings and I have the phone ringer set
Eric Weinstein (31:51.840)
on a landline to Paganini Caprice 24.
Lex Fridman (31:55.400)
And immediately as the phone rings,
Eric Weinstein (31:58.440)
he figures out what key the phone ringer is
Lex Fridman (32:02.000)
and which is not the key that like list composed
Eric Weinstein (32:05.560)
the variations on Caprice 24.
Lex Fridman (32:09.160)
And he starts going into theme and variations
Eric Weinstein (32:11.480)
on Caprice 24 at some level I've never heard before,
Lex Fridman (32:14.840)
just jaw dropping it.
Lex Fridman (32:17.100)
And like the phone stops ringing
Lex Fridman (32:18.960)
and we have this awkward silence.
Eric Weinstein (32:20.600)
I said, I didn't know you were such a great piano player.
Lex Fridman (32:23.480)
And then he says one of these things
Eric Weinstein (32:24.960)
in Russian accented English hurts in a way
Lex Fridman (32:28.280)
you can't imagine.
Eric Weinstein (32:29.120)
He said, no, you are the piano player.
Lex Fridman (32:31.960)
I am merely the piano tuner.
Lex Fridman (32:33.960)
And I was just like, oh man, through the heart.
Lex Fridman (32:38.480)
You know, it's kind of reminiscent.
Eric Weinstein (32:40.080)
I'd love to hear actually your opinion.
Lex Fridman (32:41.400)
This is reminiscent of the Good Will Hunting story.
Lex Fridman (32:44.160)
What do you think about that?
Lex Fridman (32:45.760)
That movie?
Eric Weinstein (32:46.600)
That movie.
Lex Fridman (32:47.440)
What about it?
Eric Weinstein (32:48.260)
It's MIT.
Lex Fridman (32:49.100)
Yeah, I guess when I think of that film,
Eric Weinstein (32:51.600)
I think about Matt Damon as a young guy,
Lex Fridman (32:56.220)
risking everything, giving up Harvard.
Eric Weinstein (33:00.120)
I think probably the most accomplished group
Lex Fridman (33:02.360)
of people in the world are people
Eric Weinstein (33:03.720)
who choose to give up Harvard voluntarily.
Lex Fridman (33:07.560)
Beautiful, right?
Eric Weinstein (33:08.400)
That's true.
Lex Fridman (33:09.220)
Bigger than Harvard.
Eric Weinstein (33:10.060)
That's very true.
Lex Fridman (33:10.880)
Ives was one of these people, Bill Gates, of course.
Lex Fridman (33:18.160)
And then oddly, you know.
Lex Fridman (33:19.680)
Zuckerberg.
Lex Fridman (33:20.520)
What?
Lex Fridman (33:21.340)
But then Steve Jobs gave up a Reed,
Lex Fridman (33:24.560)
and Reed is like the weirdest, craziest college
Lex Fridman (33:26.880)
in the world.
Eric Weinstein (33:27.720)
People should pay much more attention to Reed.
Lex Fridman (33:29.200)
And I'm sorry it's going through a hard time at the moment,
Lex Fridman (33:31.800)
but what it was before the current craziness
Lex Fridman (33:33.880)
is really an interesting story.
Eric Weinstein (33:36.020)
Irregardless, as we say in the 617 Area Code,
Lex Fridman (33:40.840)
I think that a lot of my reaction
Eric Weinstein (33:43.720)
is to the real story of Matt Damon having this vision
Lex Fridman (33:47.240)
and being the young guy to pull it off.
Lex Fridman (33:49.900)
And I also think about Robin Williams
Lex Fridman (33:52.480)
trying to explore heart through this lens of acting.
Lex Fridman (33:58.160)
And as you and I, you've hung out with comedians.
Lex Fridman (34:04.040)
They know that they already screwed up a bunch of people.
Eric Weinstein (34:07.640)
They do.
Lex Fridman (34:08.460)
They're proud about it.
Eric Weinstein (34:10.160)
They really are.
Lex Fridman (34:11.760)
The idea that Robin Williams, who I saw many years ago
Eric Weinstein (34:14.320)
when I was in LA in the comedy clubs around here,
Lex Fridman (34:17.960)
he was a straight up crazy, dysregulated genius
Eric Weinstein (34:21.880)
in tremendous pain.
Lex Fridman (34:25.080)
And his desire to do it earnestly through acting
Eric Weinstein (34:28.880)
rather than constantly by just sniping
Lex Fridman (34:32.480)
or being a clown or showing us how fast his mind worked
Eric Weinstein (34:37.960)
relative to ours, I was really moved by that.
Lex Fridman (34:42.280)
I thought that he brought some authenticity
Lex Fridman (34:45.760)
and took a huge risk for a comedian to be that real.
Lex Fridman (34:49.520)
And again, like you said, it doesn't always have to be,
Lex Fridman (34:52.440)
but in that case, the madness and the genius were neighbors.
Lex Fridman (34:56.360)
That one couldn't have been any other way.
Eric Weinstein (34:58.560)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (34:59.400)
No, because his mind,
Eric Weinstein (35:01.240)
the thing about seeing him in a comedy club
Lex Fridman (35:04.080)
was that he would react to random stimulus
Eric Weinstein (35:07.240)
in the environment.
Lex Fridman (35:08.880)
You know, it could be a heckler.
Eric Weinstein (35:09.720)
Sometimes you almost got the feeling
Lex Fridman (35:10.880)
that he wanted a heckler
Lex Fridman (35:11.920)
because it gave him something to play against, right?
Lex Fridman (35:16.840)
He was infinitely, instantly inventive.
Lex Fridman (35:20.700)
But I actually, to me, the best Robin Williams
Lex Fridman (35:24.300)
is as he got closer and closer to the end of his life
Eric Weinstein (35:27.960)
because there was a sadness
Lex Fridman (35:30.240)
and he's almost fighting the sadness
Eric Weinstein (35:33.520)
with this improvisational,
Lex Fridman (35:36.200)
like the weapons he has is this wit and humor
Lex Fridman (35:40.320)
and this dancing that he does with language.
Lex Fridman (35:42.800)
But, and then sometimes when you just fall silent,
Eric Weinstein (35:46.120)
you can see the sadness.
Lex Fridman (35:48.320)
And I don't know, there's something so beautiful about that.
Eric Weinstein (35:51.560)
It's like this bird with a broken wing
Lex Fridman (35:53.200)
that's like trying to fly, you know,
Lex Fridman (35:55.440)
and it's getting older and older.
Lex Fridman (35:56.940)
And I mean, those,
Eric Weinstein (36:01.160)
he would have made a one hell of a podcast guest,
Lex Fridman (36:03.240)
I'll tell you that.
Eric Weinstein (36:04.600)
That's a sad.
Lex Fridman (36:05.840)
Yeah, I have some sadness that I really do think
Eric Weinstein (36:07.980)
that part of what we call podcasting
Lex Fridman (36:11.000)
is actually just getting to know a soul
Eric Weinstein (36:13.480)
over and over again.
Lex Fridman (36:14.720)
Like maybe the idea is that this is talking about depression
Lex Fridman (36:20.760)
and sadness and heavy feelings
Lex Fridman (36:25.160)
is not an American specialty.
Eric Weinstein (36:28.800)
Seeing that in context with the beauty of life
Lex Fridman (36:31.360)
is a Russian specialty.
Eric Weinstein (36:33.040)
Like it is very much.
Lex Fridman (36:34.980)
Russian specialty, sounds like a diner menu.
Lex Fridman (36:38.000)
What?
Lex Fridman (36:38.840)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (36:39.680)
You want the Russian specialty?
Lex Fridman (36:40.520)
A big scoop of ice cream with tons of depression.
Eric Weinstein (36:46.640)
I do think that we're in a really terrifying
Lex Fridman (36:49.360)
and depressing time.
Lex Fridman (36:51.520)
And I think that part of it is that we don't know
Lex Fridman (36:54.560)
if something huge is about to get started.
Lex Fridman (36:57.320)
And we don't even know what this is.
Lex Fridman (36:59.280)
I mean, we just sit here in this weird world
Eric Weinstein (37:01.920)
that is falling into some new state
Lex Fridman (37:04.480)
and we're not even super curious.
Lex Fridman (37:06.360)
It's like, what the hell just happened?
Lex Fridman (37:08.720)
Everybody's got an answer.
Lex Fridman (37:09.920)
And I'm positive that all of those answers are wrong.
Lex Fridman (37:13.400)
Let's try to at least sneak up on the good answer.
Lex Fridman (37:17.440)
So the central core of the answer is
Lex Fridman (37:20.160)
that the US seemed to be the greatest thing in the world
Eric Weinstein (37:24.180)
in large measure because we hadn't noticed
Lex Fridman (37:27.520)
that we were getting a benefit from having no plan,
Eric Weinstein (37:30.720)
not having to make a plan for low growth.
Lex Fridman (37:33.320)
As long as we had growth, we were in great shape.
Eric Weinstein (37:38.040)
Let's imagine that you could run an experiment,
Lex Fridman (37:42.860)
you have a billion copies of Earth
Lex Fridman (37:44.560)
and you start the initial conditions slightly different.
Lex Fridman (37:48.280)
On some giant number of planets,
Eric Weinstein (37:50.800)
a lot of the things that were discovered
Lex Fridman (37:54.640)
from the 1800s through the end of the 20th century
Eric Weinstein (37:58.840)
are discovered in a period of time
Lex Fridman (38:01.500)
because a lot of that just has to do with
Eric Weinstein (38:03.940)
once you crack the puzzle of getting better instruments,
Lex Fridman (38:06.860)
you can see more.
Lex Fridman (38:08.100)
And the more you can see,
Lex Fridman (38:09.160)
the more you can make use of what you can see.
Lex Fridman (38:11.100)
And it turns out there was lots of stuff to do
Lex Fridman (38:13.880)
with like germs or electron orbitals
Eric Weinstein (38:19.520)
or spectrum, electromagnetic spectrum.
Lex Fridman (38:22.960)
And so we got to do all of those things
Lex Fridman (38:25.400)
and the US roughly corresponded
Lex Fridman (38:27.360)
for a good chunk of its history with this bonanza.
Lex Fridman (38:30.520)
And so of course we look like an amazing genius country.
Lex Fridman (38:34.200)
We have no plan.
Eric Weinstein (38:35.820)
Imagine that you could sell a car,
Lex Fridman (38:37.440)
you don't have to put in seat belts,
Eric Weinstein (38:38.720)
you don't have to put in airbags,
Lex Fridman (38:40.720)
you don't have to put in rear view mirrors or sensors
Eric Weinstein (38:43.320)
or a rear view mirror.
Lex Fridman (38:44.600)
You could save a lot of money on a car
Eric Weinstein (38:46.680)
by not putting in all of the stuff
Lex Fridman (38:48.960)
to keep things from going wrong.
Lex Fridman (38:52.160)
And I think that's what we had.
Lex Fridman (38:53.220)
We had a machine that as long as growth was insanely good,
Eric Weinstein (38:57.660)
we plowed it back, the riches and spoils and then treasure
Lex Fridman (39:01.320)
back into the system and made more genius stuff.
Lex Fridman (39:04.800)
And we carried along a good chunk of humanity,
Lex Fridman (39:07.060)
hundreds of millions of people.
Eric Weinstein (39:09.320)
We did not have a plan for what happens
Lex Fridman (39:11.460)
when the growth goes below the stall speed of our society.
Lex Fridman (39:16.140)
How confident should we be that the growth has slowed
Lex Fridman (39:19.000)
in a way that is permanent rather than a kind of slap
Eric Weinstein (39:24.960)
in the face where we...
Lex Fridman (39:26.320)
It's not the right concept.
Eric Weinstein (39:27.760)
Right concept is, I try to use the same words
Lex Fridman (39:31.600)
over and over again in case people see mold
Eric Weinstein (39:33.320)
because then the perseveration actually gets somewhere.
Lex Fridman (39:35.800)
So I use this analogy of the orchard
Eric Weinstein (39:38.000)
because everyone talks about low hanging fruit.
Lex Fridman (39:40.840)
They know the concept of low hanging fruit,
Lex Fridman (39:43.480)
but they don't think in terms of orchards.
Lex Fridman (39:47.220)
So they say things like,
Eric Weinstein (39:48.740)
you think we've picked all the low hanging fruit,
Lex Fridman (39:50.720)
but I believe in the inventiveness of the human mind.
Eric Weinstein (39:53.960)
It's like, okay, that doesn't even work as an analogy.
Lex Fridman (39:58.640)
What if the idea is we only picked
Eric Weinstein (40:00.080)
all the low hanging fruit here,
Lex Fridman (40:01.760)
and then we're having this stupid argument
Eric Weinstein (40:03.320)
about low hanging fruit,
Lex Fridman (40:04.480)
and we're not going and looking for new orchards.
Eric Weinstein (40:06.880)
We're not planting new orchards.
Lex Fridman (40:08.080)
We're not looking for forests.
Eric Weinstein (40:09.800)
We're just sitting here arguing about low hanging fruit.
Lex Fridman (40:11.840)
So my claim is there's probably a lot more low hanging fruit
Lex Fridman (40:14.200)
and it's not here.
Lex Fridman (40:15.680)
It's in other orchards.
Eric Weinstein (40:16.720)
It's in other orchards.
Lex Fridman (40:17.560)
One of those turned out to be the digital orchard.
Eric Weinstein (40:20.020)
The digital orchard has not been as stagnant
Lex Fridman (40:24.320)
as lots of these other, like the chemical orchard.
Eric Weinstein (40:29.880)
I have faith that there is a small percentage
Lex Fridman (40:33.520)
of the population, but not zero,
Eric Weinstein (40:36.400)
that's looking for those other orchards.
Lex Fridman (40:38.240)
Like I'm excited about one of those orchards,
Eric Weinstein (40:40.400)
which is, I believe there'll be robots in everybody's homes
Lex Fridman (40:43.800)
and that will unlock some totally new thing.
Eric Weinstein (40:48.040)
Totally new set of technologies, ideas,
Lex Fridman (40:51.760)
the way we live life, the productivity,
Eric Weinstein (40:54.520)
all the everything, it'll change everything.
Lex Fridman (40:57.560)
So I'm excited about that orchard.
Lex Fridman (40:59.140)
So I'm roaming that orchard
Lex Fridman (41:01.240)
and wondering how the hell you kind of bring back
Eric Weinstein (41:05.520)
like the ant that finds a new source of food.
Lex Fridman (41:08.520)
I'm trying to find an apple I can bring back to the.
Eric Weinstein (41:11.520)
Great, so you're in an explorer idiom.
Lex Fridman (41:16.080)
And do you have faith that there's enough of those?
Eric Weinstein (41:18.240)
I don't think there are very many of us.
Lex Fridman (41:20.080)
I mean, I'm one of them too.
Lex Fridman (41:22.040)
How many does it take?
Lex Fridman (41:23.180)
It takes one ant.
Eric Weinstein (41:25.560)
It takes one ant.
Lex Fridman (41:26.400)
What are you talking about?
Lex Fridman (41:28.680)
How many elons does it take to screw in a light bulb?
Lex Fridman (41:31.720)
Okay, let's imagine that we went,
Lex Fridman (41:35.200)
imagine some ant goes and finds a new source of food, right?
Lex Fridman (41:39.400)
And then it comes back to the colony and it says,
Eric Weinstein (41:42.320)
hey, I think I found a new source of food.
Lex Fridman (41:44.680)
And the initial reaction is,
Eric Weinstein (41:46.840)
you're not authorized to find new food.
Lex Fridman (41:49.740)
What?
Lex Fridman (41:51.200)
Why would you try to go find new food?
Lex Fridman (41:52.680)
We're gonna remove you from Twitter.
Eric Weinstein (41:54.160)
Yeah, and by the way,
Lex Fridman (41:55.520)
I think the fact that you think you're allowed
Eric Weinstein (41:56.960)
to go find new food shows how privileged you are as an ant.
Lex Fridman (41:59.400)
Get out of the colony, kill him, kill him.
Eric Weinstein (42:01.900)
Well, that's probably not a great model
Lex Fridman (42:04.720)
for finding new orchards.
Lex Fridman (42:06.400)
And I think that what we find is that
Lex Fridman (42:08.980)
where there's a system that allows somebody to ascend
Eric Weinstein (42:11.880)
without a lot of gatekeeping, you can have that.
Lex Fridman (42:15.560)
But I saw this happen in hedge funds.
Eric Weinstein (42:17.560)
Hedge funds for a while hoovered up a lot of talent
Lex Fridman (42:22.840)
because they were places that had funding and had freedom.
Lex Fridman (42:27.160)
And in general, really smart people want to be free
Lex Fridman (42:32.000)
and they don't wanna think a lot about
Lex Fridman (42:34.800)
how they're gonna feed themselves.
Lex Fridman (42:37.280)
They wanna get lost in their minds.
Lex Fridman (42:39.920)
So you can either give them productive places to play,
Lex Fridman (42:42.800)
dangerous places to play.
Eric Weinstein (42:45.560)
They're either gonna break into computers
Lex Fridman (42:47.360)
or find vaccines for you or build bombs or build companies.
Lex Fridman (42:53.120)
And we're not providing for the people who have to disrupt
Lex Fridman (42:58.320)
and have to innovate and trying to channel that effort.
Eric Weinstein (43:01.480)
We're so focused on this other thing,
Lex Fridman (43:03.980)
which is fairness and safety.
Lex Fridman (43:06.120)
And fairness and safety, by the way, are really important.
Lex Fridman (43:08.280)
I don't wanna denigrate them.
Lex Fridman (43:10.160)
But the singular focus on fairness and safety
Lex Fridman (43:12.880)
without, in the same breath, being focused on growth
Lex Fridman (43:17.680)
and discovery and creation is gonna doom us
Lex Fridman (43:21.320)
because what we're talking about is we're always talking
Eric Weinstein (43:23.600)
about divvying up the pie that is
Lex Fridman (43:25.580)
as opposed to the pie that will be.
Eric Weinstein (43:28.440)
Imagine that you spent all your time trying to divvy up
Lex Fridman (43:30.760)
the 13th century pie and you destroyed your ability
Eric Weinstein (43:34.900)
to get to the 20th century.
Lex Fridman (43:36.340)
You'd be an idiot.
Lex Fridman (43:38.100)
But one place I think I disagree with you
Lex Fridman (43:42.000)
is I don't think you need that many people
Eric Weinstein (43:45.020)
to empower the geniuses, the innovators,
Lex Fridman (43:47.320)
the people who refuse to spend most of their days
Eric Weinstein (43:50.800)
in meetings about fairness.
Lex Fridman (43:52.200)
This is good.
Eric Weinstein (43:53.760)
Let's have a disagreement.
Lex Fridman (43:54.800)
I think podcasting, whatever you call that medium,
Eric Weinstein (43:57.960)
is just one little example of a tool
Lex Fridman (44:01.400)
that you can give power to,
Eric Weinstein (44:03.500)
like you and your podcast can have the next Elon Musk
Lex Fridman (44:09.060)
and make him a star.
Eric Weinstein (44:09.900)
Now I see where you're going.
Lex Fridman (44:11.140)
Okay.
Eric Weinstein (44:11.980)
There have been a series of places
Lex Fridman (44:14.060)
for people to play and be free.
Lex Fridman (44:17.280)
And we've lost them successively.
Lex Fridman (44:19.900)
What's a good place you remember?
Eric Weinstein (44:21.440)
Because I disagree with you there too.
Lex Fridman (44:23.200)
I think they're still there.
Eric Weinstein (44:24.540)
You can still play.
Lex Fridman (44:25.620)
You interviewed Noam Chomsky.
Eric Weinstein (44:28.180)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (44:29.160)
Okay.
Eric Weinstein (44:30.000)
Noam Chomsky comes from an era.
Lex Fridman (44:32.140)
Where you can play?
Lex Fridman (44:33.120)
Where you could play?
Lex Fridman (44:34.180)
At MIT.
Eric Weinstein (44:35.020)
At MIT.
Lex Fridman (44:36.180)
And you can't play.
Eric Weinstein (44:37.000)
This is where I disagree with you.
Lex Fridman (44:38.300)
We've already had this.
Eric Weinstein (44:39.420)
But.
Lex Fridman (44:40.260)
Go check the Clips channel for the Lex Friedman podcast.
Eric Weinstein (44:43.700)
I think I wasn't brave enough at that time
Lex Fridman (44:46.700)
and I'm not really brave enough now.
Eric Weinstein (44:48.780)
Come on.
Lex Fridman (44:49.620)
Because I don't.
Lex Fridman (44:50.440)
Where's the vodka?
Lex Fridman (44:51.980)
It's a feeling and people are gonna tear me apart.
Lex Fridman (44:54.620)
Oh, what are you?
Lex Fridman (44:55.460)
And you speak from emotion and facts.
Eric Weinstein (44:58.220)
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Lex Fridman (44:59.380)
The feeling.
Lex Fridman (45:00.220)
What podcast is this?
Lex Fridman (45:01.040)
It's yours.
Eric Weinstein (45:01.880)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (45:02.720)
Tell the people who are currently editing your brain,
Eric Weinstein (45:05.860)
because I saw that move right now.
Lex Fridman (45:07.180)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (45:08.220)
That they should go find another podcast.
Lex Fridman (45:10.780)
Right?
Eric Weinstein (45:11.620)
Let's get rid of some of your audience right now.
Lex Fridman (45:14.900)
Please go find another podcast
Eric Weinstein (45:16.460)
if you're editing my brain.
Lex Fridman (45:17.620)
Nevertheless, all the self doubt,
Eric Weinstein (45:19.580)
they're sitting in that brain.
Lex Fridman (45:20.860)
So.
Eric Weinstein (45:21.700)
I can't stand to watch this.
Lex Fridman (45:22.520)
But all right.
Lex Fridman (45:23.360)
What is this self doubt loop that you're in?
Lex Fridman (45:25.600)
The thing is,
Eric Weinstein (45:27.620)
when I walk the halls of MIT.
Lex Fridman (45:30.760)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (45:32.000)
There's bureaucracy, there's administrators
Lex Fridman (45:34.460)
that never have done anything interesting
Eric Weinstein (45:36.000)
in their entire lives.
Lex Fridman (45:37.460)
There's meetings, there's.
Eric Weinstein (45:39.220)
All the usual crap.
Lex Fridman (45:40.060)
All the usual crap.
Lex Fridman (45:41.200)
But there's, in the eyes of individuals.
Lex Fridman (45:45.420)
Yeah.
Eric Weinstein (45:46.260)
There's this glow of excitement
Lex Fridman (45:48.460)
that has nothing to do with career.
Eric Weinstein (45:49.700)
I understand this.
Lex Fridman (45:51.140)
And it's still a playground.
Eric Weinstein (45:52.860)
There's little pockets of playgrounds
Lex Fridman (45:55.700)
from which genius can emerge still.
Lex Fridman (45:58.080)
And they're unaffected by diversity meetings
Lex Fridman (46:01.340)
or fairness meetings or blah, blah, blah.
Eric Weinstein (46:04.540)
I love to hear that.
Lex Fridman (46:05.500)
Yeah?
Lex Fridman (46:06.340)
Well, you don't think so?
Lex Fridman (46:07.160)
I don't believe it.
Eric Weinstein (46:08.800)
Cause I've watched the change, Lex.
Lex Fridman (46:10.220)
I've watched people.
Eric Weinstein (46:11.320)
We were all editing ourselves all the time.
Lex Fridman (46:13.580)
I remember my old mind.
Eric Weinstein (46:14.920)
I liked it better.
Lex Fridman (46:17.300)
All of this relentless focus on critical race theory
Lex Fridman (46:21.020)
and critical theory, postmodernism, fairness,
Lex Fridman (46:25.060)
social justice.
Eric Weinstein (46:26.160)
It's making many of us into worse people.
Lex Fridman (46:29.720)
You think that's that?
Lex Fridman (46:30.920)
Do you think the Matt Damon's of the character
Lex Fridman (46:34.120)
is paying attention to any of that?
Lex Fridman (46:35.740)
You think that has an effect?
Lex Fridman (46:36.580)
Have you seen what happened to Matt Damon himself?
Eric Weinstein (46:39.300)
Matt Damon has tried to say various things at various times
Lex Fridman (46:41.980)
that seemed to be relatively innocuous.
Eric Weinstein (46:44.100)
He can't speak.
Lex Fridman (46:45.500)
Okay.
Eric Weinstein (46:46.340)
Well, let's not mix up.
Lex Fridman (46:48.400)
Matt Damon is just an actor.
Eric Weinstein (46:49.740)
Well, I don't know.
Lex Fridman (46:50.920)
He was just a Harvard student
Eric Weinstein (46:52.540)
who came up with his own genius screenplay,
Lex Fridman (46:55.300)
acted and made it happen.
Eric Weinstein (46:56.940)
No.
Lex Fridman (46:57.780)
No, we're somewhere else.
Eric Weinstein (46:59.280)
You don't think you can build a rocket company
Lex Fridman (47:01.780)
out of MIT still?
Eric Weinstein (47:03.380)
I think that there are things that you can still do.
Lex Fridman (47:06.460)
But we're losing them.
Eric Weinstein (47:07.360)
We lose them.
Lex Fridman (47:08.780)
We keep losing them.
Eric Weinstein (47:10.740)
I would say the biggest problem,
Lex Fridman (47:13.300)
here, let me just say,
Lex Fridman (47:14.220)
what I think the solution would be
Lex Fridman (47:16.060)
is to fire anybody who's not faculty,
Eric Weinstein (47:22.460)
especially young faculty should have way more power
Lex Fridman (47:25.100)
and administration should have much less power.
Eric Weinstein (47:27.780)
Because right now, the administration,
Lex Fridman (47:31.120)
which used some of the, who used to be faculty,
Lex Fridman (47:33.920)
but they've lost the fire, the spark that gave them,
Lex Fridman (47:37.060)
they've lost the memories of the playground.
Lex Fridman (47:39.860)
And so the people that admire and love the playground,
Lex Fridman (47:43.340)
like you could see it in their behavior,
Eric Weinstein (47:44.780)
should have way more power.
Lex Fridman (47:46.780)
And so we should create a systems that give them power.
Eric Weinstein (47:49.880)
I think I'll take it.
Lex Fridman (47:50.720)
You're very idealistic.
Eric Weinstein (47:51.700)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (47:52.540)
And you're very, you've got a huge heart.
Eric Weinstein (47:55.580)
It's a weird time.
Lex Fridman (47:56.600)
Cause I don't want to dissuade you
Eric Weinstein (47:58.600)
from believing beautiful things.
Lex Fridman (48:02.160)
Because I see how potent you are.
Eric Weinstein (48:04.220)
You do all these things,
Lex Fridman (48:05.740)
Jiu Jitsu, guitar, podcasting, programming, computers,
Eric Weinstein (48:11.480)
et cetera, et cetera.
Lex Fridman (48:13.840)
I don't think you're right.
Eric Weinstein (48:14.840)
I think we're in a really deeply screwed up place
Lex Fridman (48:17.460)
where even the tiny number of,
Eric Weinstein (48:19.860)
let me give you an alternate version of this dystopia.
Lex Fridman (48:23.560)
I do think that there are people who are capable
Lex Fridman (48:25.580)
and there's still places to play
Lex Fridman (48:27.100)
and cause things to happen that progress the story forward.
Lex Fridman (48:30.620)
But if you look at the fire that some of the people are in
Lex Fridman (48:33.700)
who fit that profile,
Lex Fridman (48:35.780)
like how much crap has Elon Musk taken?
Lex Fridman (48:39.780)
Quite considerable, right?
Lex Fridman (48:42.880)
And not much admiration from the...
Lex Fridman (48:46.340)
Craig Venter, Jim Watson.
Eric Weinstein (48:51.560)
These are very difficult people.
Lex Fridman (48:53.720)
Steve Jobs is a very difficult guy, you know?
Eric Weinstein (48:58.800)
Yeah, it is a bit heartbreaking to me.
Lex Fridman (49:01.440)
I mean, everybody is different generations.
Eric Weinstein (49:03.640)
I just, my mind is a little focused on Elon Musk
Lex Fridman (49:05.880)
because he's the modern person.
Eric Weinstein (49:08.360)
Well, you know him.
Lex Fridman (49:09.380)
I mean, he's a person to you.
Eric Weinstein (49:11.880)
It hurts my heart to see how few faculty
Lex Fridman (49:16.400)
and people with Nobel prizes and so on admire Elon.
Eric Weinstein (49:21.400)
He gets a lot of fans from people that buy his products
Lex Fridman (49:28.720)
and young minds just excited.
Lex Fridman (49:31.640)
But why don't we as an institution,
Lex Fridman (49:33.560)
why doesn't MIT say that somebody amongst us
Lex Fridman (49:39.980)
will be the next Elon Musk and we want to encourage them?
Lex Fridman (49:43.520)
Like say that, say that in meetings, say that.
Eric Weinstein (49:46.640)
Like that's success for us as MIT.
Lex Fridman (49:51.120)
And they, instead there's this jealousy.
Lex Fridman (49:54.080)
It's like, did you hear what Elon Musk tweeted?
Lex Fridman (49:56.920)
Did you see, like how irresponsible is what he's doing?
Eric Weinstein (50:00.440)
How, like you're just saying all these things
Lex Fridman (50:04.000)
that are just dripping with jealousy and basically...
Eric Weinstein (50:09.200)
I want what he's got.
Lex Fridman (50:10.260)
That's the thing, right?
Eric Weinstein (50:13.680)
Here's the weird thing.
Lex Fridman (50:14.760)
Rivalry has a different signature.
Eric Weinstein (50:17.220)
You see, when you know that you're never going to make it,
Lex Fridman (50:22.820)
that's the position you take.
Lex Fridman (50:26.060)
What is it in Kung Fu Panda, which you've watched now?
Lex Fridman (50:29.900)
Yes. Yes.
Lex Fridman (50:31.040)
What does Tai Lung say when he's looking
Lex Fridman (50:35.340)
for the dragon warrior and the furious five
Lex Fridman (50:37.740)
come to defeat him on the bridge?
Lex Fridman (50:40.980)
One of them gives up Poe's name accidentally
Lex Fridman (50:44.740)
and Tai Lung hears it.
Lex Fridman (50:46.140)
Poe, so that is his name.
Eric Weinstein (50:48.460)
Finally, a worthy opponent.
Lex Fridman (50:50.460)
Our battle will be legendary, right?
Eric Weinstein (50:53.260)
He's excited.
Lex Fridman (50:54.740)
Why is that?
Eric Weinstein (50:56.320)
Well, you learn about this in boxing.
Lex Fridman (50:58.040)
Sometimes you'll see a division or an MMA,
Eric Weinstein (51:01.500)
which is lousy with talent.
Lex Fridman (51:03.960)
Just, you can't swing a cat
Eric Weinstein (51:05.340)
without hitting an amazing athlete.
Lex Fridman (51:09.120)
Sometimes you'll have a division,
Eric Weinstein (51:10.280)
which at that particular moment has one star
Lex Fridman (51:12.760)
and no real competition in that weight class or something.
Eric Weinstein (51:16.560)
That person is in bad shape
Lex Fridman (51:18.560)
because you can't build a legend without the other.
Eric Weinstein (51:24.780)
When you think of Muhammad Ali,
Lex Fridman (51:26.460)
what are the names that you immediately think of?
Lex Fridman (51:28.980)
And you have to phrase your,
Lex Fridman (51:31.380)
you have to think of the other heavyweights.
Eric Weinstein (51:33.200)
Liston.
Lex Fridman (51:34.480)
Right.
Lex Fridman (51:35.840)
So those opponents are in part what made Muhammad Ali
Lex Fridman (51:40.840)
Muhammad Ali.
Lex Fridman (51:42.320)
And that's why the Mayweather McGregor revelation that,
Lex Fridman (51:49.880)
okay, this guy has got his opponent's picture in his house.
Lex Fridman (51:53.400)
How weird is that?
Lex Fridman (51:55.560)
Well, because without the opponent,
Eric Weinstein (51:56.960)
you may not be able to get there.
Lex Fridman (51:58.280)
Now, I am not a huge fan of the wrong kinds of rivalries.
Lex Fridman (52:05.000)
Do you have examples in mind?
Lex Fridman (52:06.920)
Well, there are rivalries
Eric Weinstein (52:08.120)
where people take each other's credit cards
Lex Fridman (52:10.200)
and take each other's credit and screw each other over.
Lex Fridman (52:12.880)
And then there are other rivalries like the RNA Thai Club
Lex Fridman (52:17.480)
where these guys were so in love with what they were doing
Eric Weinstein (52:20.780)
that they couldn't wait to share everything.
Lex Fridman (52:22.460)
And like Nobel prizes were so abundant
Eric Weinstein (52:25.840)
that most people got Nobel prizes
Lex Fridman (52:28.000)
just for being a member of the RNA Thai Club
Lex Fridman (52:30.080)
and doing cool stuff.
Lex Fridman (52:31.040)
And yeah, that's the golden kind of sweet spot.
Eric Weinstein (52:36.040)
Most of these people can't do what Elon's doing
Lex Fridman (52:38.960)
because they can't break rules,
Eric Weinstein (52:40.280)
they can't take the pressure.
Lex Fridman (52:41.800)
I'll tell you what really concerns me
Eric Weinstein (52:43.160)
about your perspective.
Lex Fridman (52:45.400)
I think that there are a lot of genius ideas
Eric Weinstein (52:48.120)
inside of people who don't have the stomach
Lex Fridman (52:50.840)
for conflict and derision.
Lex Fridman (52:53.520)
And I think a lot of those people are female.
Lex Fridman (52:57.200)
And I think that until we come up with a world
Eric Weinstein (52:59.960)
in which we can swat down the trolls,
Lex Fridman (53:02.680)
or we can actually cause the trolls not to ruin everything.
Lex Fridman (53:07.680)
And I don't necessarily mean by shutting them up,
Lex Fridman (53:09.920)
I don't necessarily mean by being brutal to them,
Lex Fridman (53:13.040)
but somehow separating off people who are working
Lex Fridman (53:15.920)
and people who are trolling.
Eric Weinstein (53:18.360)
I think that we're losing a huge amount of human genius
Lex Fridman (53:21.360)
in part because women in particular
Eric Weinstein (53:26.360)
are not necessarily going to push an idea
Lex Fridman (53:29.600)
if it results in 10 years of being derided.
Eric Weinstein (53:34.200)
Very few men are willing to do that either.
Lex Fridman (53:37.360)
But there are some of us who are so dumb
Eric Weinstein (53:39.720)
that we will pigheadedly stick to an idea for 10 years
Lex Fridman (53:43.000)
even if the world collapses.
Eric Weinstein (53:44.960)
I don't think that there are as many women
Lex Fridman (53:47.080)
who are going to make that calculation
Eric Weinstein (53:49.240)
even if they know the idea is correct.
Lex Fridman (53:51.160)
And one of the things that I believe technology
Eric Weinstein (53:53.640)
can help us fight the trolls,
Lex Fridman (53:55.280)
of all definitions of troll,
Eric Weinstein (53:57.360)
like I believe that a better Twitter can be built.
Lex Fridman (54:00.360)
Interesting, I do not.
Eric Weinstein (54:02.840)
I don't believe that a Twitter successor can be built
Lex Fridman (54:05.560)
that solves most of the problems.
Eric Weinstein (54:07.720)
I think you can always improve what we have,
Lex Fridman (54:10.280)
but I don't think that converges in something
Eric Weinstein (54:12.360)
that really works because I think ultimately
Lex Fridman (54:14.360)
the problem isn't Twitter, the problem is us.
Eric Weinstein (54:17.760)
For example, I've recently made
Lex Fridman (54:19.040)
a very disturbing realization,
Eric Weinstein (54:23.280)
which is academics and social scientists
Lex Fridman (54:26.360)
and academics and trolls have very many similar behaviors.
Eric Weinstein (54:30.280)
Absolutely.
Lex Fridman (54:31.720)
It's largely a trolling community.
Eric Weinstein (54:34.160)
I tend to believe that the trolls are not,
Lex Fridman (54:38.520)
it's like the Peter Thiel mini mind idea,
Eric Weinstein (54:42.160)
which in all of the trolls,
Lex Fridman (54:45.080)
there's the possibility of goodness.
Lex Fridman (54:47.800)
And all you have to do, not all you have to do,
Lex Fridman (54:50.240)
what you have to do is create technology
Eric Weinstein (54:52.520)
that incentivizes them to embrace,
Lex Fridman (54:58.160)
to discover, to embrace,
Eric Weinstein (55:00.160)
to practice the better angels of their nature.
Lex Fridman (55:04.240)
And I believe that people actually want to do that.
Eric Weinstein (55:10.120)
The trolls is a short term dopamine rush
Lex Fridman (55:15.000)
of childish toxicity that all of us want to overcome.
Eric Weinstein (55:20.000)
I believe that like deep within, we want to overcome that.
Lex Fridman (55:23.280)
I try to keep myself from believing what you believe.
Eric Weinstein (55:29.120)
Because you'd be disappointed if it's not true.
Lex Fridman (55:30.960)
Because it's dangerous,
Eric Weinstein (55:31.800)
because a lot of these people are implacable foes
Lex Fridman (55:34.480)
and there aren't many of them,
Lex Fridman (55:35.880)
but when you meet somebody who's like,
Lex Fridman (55:37.880)
yeah, I just like screwing people up.
Eric Weinstein (55:39.800)
I'm here for the pain.
Lex Fridman (55:42.040)
I just believe even in them, there's a good.
Eric Weinstein (55:44.520)
There's a wonderful book that I'm gonna recommend to you
Lex Fridman (55:47.480)
where I hope this comes from.
Eric Weinstein (55:49.040)
Maybe I've got the source wrong,
Lex Fridman (55:50.520)
but in any event, it's a great book
Eric Weinstein (55:52.320)
called Maximum City about Bombay.
Lex Fridman (55:56.400)
And I believe the conceit is that the author
Eric Weinstein (56:01.560)
leaves Bombay as a kid and comes back as an adult
Lex Fridman (56:04.120)
and he realizes he has to rediscover the city
Eric Weinstein (56:06.520)
because he can't live in the city he left.
Lex Fridman (56:09.280)
So he gets in contact with all of the weird areas
Eric Weinstein (56:12.680)
of the city and one of them is the underworld.
Lex Fridman (56:15.360)
He hangs out with the police,
Lex Fridman (56:16.400)
but in the underworld, he's talking to contract killers.
Lex Fridman (56:19.840)
And he says, you know, it's really weird.
Eric Weinstein (56:22.480)
Everybody pleads for their life right before I kill them.
Lex Fridman (56:26.360)
And they always say this thing about,
Eric Weinstein (56:28.320)
I've got two kids at home.
Lex Fridman (56:32.560)
He says, never say that to a contract killer
Eric Weinstein (56:34.560)
because we have terrible relationships with our parents.
Lex Fridman (56:37.640)
Doesn't it dare us to do that?
Lex Fridman (56:40.120)
And I was just thinking like, oh, wow.
Lex Fridman (56:41.520)
So there's a minus sign in front of that statement.
Eric Weinstein (56:44.000)
You're sitting there saying, you know,
Lex Fridman (56:45.320)
I've got a three year old, it's like,
Eric Weinstein (56:46.960)
okay, well, I'm gonna take this POS out of that kid's life.
Lex Fridman (56:51.360)
Maybe I'll have a chance.
Eric Weinstein (56:53.080)
You don't know how people are wired.
Lex Fridman (56:56.080)
And as much as I hate to say it,
Eric Weinstein (56:58.560)
there are people whose wiring is so disturbing
Lex Fridman (57:01.360)
and so different from yours
Eric Weinstein (57:03.320)
that you will never guess why you can't reach them
Lex Fridman (57:07.240)
or how much pleasure they may have gotten
Eric Weinstein (57:09.040)
because they may have gone over a point of no return.
Lex Fridman (57:11.840)
Nevertheless, you are just a smart guy
Eric Weinstein (57:15.760)
who is using his intuition to make a hypothesis.
Lex Fridman (57:19.000)
You do not know this for sure.
Eric Weinstein (57:20.480)
Nope.
Lex Fridman (57:21.560)
And I am, you know, whatever the hell I am
Eric Weinstein (57:27.480)
that has a different hypothesis
Lex Fridman (57:29.680)
that even in the darkest human beings
Eric Weinstein (57:32.800)
that seem to be only full of evil,
Lex Fridman (57:36.920)
there's a good person there that could be discovered.
Lex Fridman (57:39.560)
And that's one of the reasons I love doing your show
Lex Fridman (57:42.720)
is that you have these beliefs, even as a Russian.
Eric Weinstein (57:48.160)
The Russian special.
Lex Fridman (57:49.400)
As you know, the Russian, there is a weirdness
Eric Weinstein (57:52.560)
which is a total cynicism and total idealism
Lex Fridman (57:55.720)
locked together, right?
Eric Weinstein (57:56.880)
That's very much a part of the Russian character.
Lex Fridman (58:00.680)
The reason I kept bothering you,
Eric Weinstein (58:02.400)
kept bothering you to have this conversation
Lex Fridman (58:04.080)
is I'm really worried about the next couple of months.
Eric Weinstein (58:09.080)
No kidding.
Lex Fridman (58:10.560)
And if there's anybody in this world
Eric Weinstein (58:13.760)
that could help alleviate my worry
Lex Fridman (58:18.240)
by at least walking along with me
Eric Weinstein (58:22.000)
through this worry of mine, it's you.
Lex Fridman (58:25.960)
Do you think we're headed towards some kind of civil war?
Eric Weinstein (58:30.160)
Some kind of division that explodes
Lex Fridman (58:32.400)
beyond just stuff on Twitter,
Lex Fridman (58:34.880)
but something that's really destructive
Lex Fridman (58:39.040)
to the fabric of our society?
Eric Weinstein (58:41.920)
Well, I believe we're in a revolution, as you know.
Lex Fridman (58:45.320)
I've called it the no name revolution
Eric Weinstein (58:46.920)
or N squared revolution.
Lex Fridman (58:48.280)
I've been talking about it for years.
Eric Weinstein (58:51.320)
I don't think, I think waiting for this
Lex Fridman (58:54.680)
to be called a civil war is not smart.
Eric Weinstein (58:58.160)
Only history will call it such.
Lex Fridman (59:00.000)
Fine.
Lex Fridman (59:00.840)
But I think that the problem is
Lex Fridman (59:01.920)
is that you're encountering things
Eric Weinstein (59:03.200)
that you've never seen trying to fit them
Lex Fridman (59:05.000)
into things that you already know.
Eric Weinstein (59:06.880)
Right.
Lex Fridman (59:07.720)
And.
Lex Fridman (59:08.560)
But history repeats itself.
Lex Fridman (59:10.600)
Yes, ish.
Eric Weinstein (59:13.880)
You don't see lessons from history in.
Lex Fridman (59:15.640)
I do.
Eric Weinstein (59:16.480)
We see today.
Lex Fridman (59:17.320)
But I don't see it repeating itself.
Eric Weinstein (59:18.880)
You know, the famous quote is that it rhymes.
Lex Fridman (59:22.000)
It rhymes.
Eric Weinstein (59:23.240)
I mean, the thing I guess I'm speaking to is violence.
Lex Fridman (59:27.440)
And.
Eric Weinstein (59:28.280)
We're in there.
Lex Fridman (59:29.640)
The abstraction of violence.
Eric Weinstein (59:31.760)
Imagine you were coding up violence as an abstract class.
Lex Fridman (59:36.480)
Okay.
Eric Weinstein (59:38.120)
Thank you for speaking to the audience.
Lex Fridman (59:40.520)
Trying to lose these people.
Eric Weinstein (59:42.080)
Come with me.
Lex Fridman (59:44.800)
Go on.
Eric Weinstein (59:45.640)
No, no, no.
Lex Fridman (59:46.480)
Look, I've dealt with your audience
Lex Fridman (59:48.560)
and your audience contains the smartest people around.
Lex Fridman (59:51.640)
I guarantee you if I say some stuff,
Eric Weinstein (59:54.120)
first of all, any wrong thing that I'll say,
Lex Fridman (59:55.680)
they're gonna detail.
Lex Fridman (59:56.560)
So that'll be a little bit of catnip
Lex Fridman (59:58.200)
to bring in the smart people.
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