Travis Stevens: Judo, Olympics, and Mental Toughness

Lex Fridman (01:21.940)

greed and corruption on the part of the IOC

Travis Stevens (01:24.740)

in failing to do as the Olympic charter states,

Lex Fridman (01:27.780)

to quote, ensure the fullest coverage

Lex Fridman (01:31.100)

and the widest possible audience in the world

Lex Fridman (01:33.660)

for the Olympic games, end quote.

Travis Stevens (01:37.220)

I want to give you two facts.

Lex Fridman (01:38.820)

First, they do not make most of the videos of the games

Travis Stevens (01:41.980)

available for replay anywhere that is accessible,

Lex Fridman (01:45.520)

searchable and discoverable,

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whether funded by ads or by subscriptions.

Lex Fridman (01:50.020)

For example, on YouTube or their own service,

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it is not available anywhere.

Lex Fridman (01:56.380)

Second, in the most absurd violation of the Olympic charter,

Travis Stevens (02:00.220)

they've uploaded all of the videos of the 2012, 2016

Lex Fridman (02:05.060)

and the 2020 slash 21 Olympics to YouTube.

Lex Fridman (02:09.860)

And they set all of these videos to private.

Lex Fridman (02:14.220)

This results in a situation like my four hour conversation

Travis Stevens (02:17.260)

that you're watching now with Travis Stevens

Lex Fridman (02:19.300)

being taken down due to us including a few seconds

Travis Stevens (02:22.780)

of a small video overlay of Travis's epic match

Lex Fridman (02:26.280)

against Ole Bischoff in 2012.

Travis Stevens (02:28.540)

This is done automatically as per the request of the IOC.

Lex Fridman (02:32.180)

I have the video due to having screen recorded it from 2012.

Travis Stevens (02:36.540)

Here you have Travis Stevens, an Olympic silver medalist,

Lex Fridman (02:40.620)

someone who spent his entire life overcoming injuries,

Travis Stevens (02:43.820)

losses, hard weight cuts, periods of no financial

Lex Fridman (02:47.540)

or psychological support culminating

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in the biggest heartbreak of his career in this one match.

Lex Fridman (02:54.580)

And this match is available nowhere online,

Travis Stevens (02:57.460)

not for free, not for $1 million.

Lex Fridman (03:00.900)

Our showing short clips of it results in the IOC

Travis Stevens (03:04.140)

taking it down, not demonetizing it,

Lex Fridman (03:06.640)

taking it down, blocking it.

Travis Stevens (03:09.200)

The IOC silences this amazing story of Travis Stevens

Lex Fridman (03:13.100)

of heartbreak that eventually led to triumph.

Lex Fridman (03:16.700)

And there are thousands of stories like it,

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stories that are supposed to inspire the world.

Travis Stevens (03:22.780)

To me and to billions of others,

Lex Fridman (03:24.460)

the Olympic games give a chance to celebrate

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and to be inspired by the greatest stories

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of human flourishing in the face of hardship

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and incredibly long odds or dominance

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in the pursuit of perfection

Travis Stevens (03:36.300)

at levels previously thought to be impossible.

Lex Fridman (03:39.260)

The Olympic games inspire kids like me to dream

Lex Fridman (03:43.660)

and to work hard to achieve in our own lives

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the same moments of magic and greatness,

Travis Stevens (03:49.100)

small or big, that the Olympic games reveal.

Lex Fridman (03:53.580)

I believe the members of the IOC are good people,

Lex Fridman (03:57.140)

but people who forgot the dream,

Lex Fridman (03:59.980)

the fire that was sparked and burned in their hearts

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when they first saw the Olympics as kids.

Lex Fridman (04:06.040)

They've allowed the gradual corruption

Travis Stevens (04:08.420)

of their own human spirit

Lex Fridman (04:10.420)

and thereby have robbed the world of this very fire,

Travis Stevens (04:13.900)

the fire of the Olympic torch,

Lex Fridman (04:16.180)

the fire that ought to burn in the eyes and hearts of kids

Travis Stevens (04:19.380)

watching the Olympics today,

Lex Fridman (04:21.240)

daring to dream, daring to be great.

Travis Stevens (04:24.540)

Please, please do better.

Lex Fridman (04:27.820)

The world needs you, the world needs the Olympic games.

Travis Stevens (04:32.620)

This is the Lux Friedman podcast

Lex Fridman (04:35.660)

and here's my conversation with Travis Stevens.

Travis Stevens (04:40.020)

Judo is a martial arts, a sport,

Lex Fridman (04:42.480)

a set of techniques, ideas, and philosophies.

Travis Stevens (04:45.100)

Can we start by maybe you giving a big picture overview

Lex Fridman (04:48.620)

of what is Judo to somebody who's like outside

Lex Fridman (04:52.440)

the whole spectrum of grappling sports?

Lex Fridman (04:54.780)

Yeah, Judo was originated in Japan

Travis Stevens (04:57.820)

that was used as a police tactic for self defense

Lex Fridman (05:02.060)

and subduing people.

Travis Stevens (05:05.180)

It's the art of being able to throw somebody to the ground

Lex Fridman (05:07.980)

and hold and control the situation.

Travis Stevens (05:10.420)

I think it's pretty much evolved since then though.

Lex Fridman (05:14.060)

You know, it's as you include like the sport aspect of it,

Travis Stevens (05:17.780)

it's grown to be something more and more dynamic

Lex Fridman (05:22.420)

and it's kind of gotten away from that.

Lex Fridman (05:25.040)

So the basics is people wear something called a gi,

Lex Fridman (05:28.980)

which I think nicely mimics like outdoor clothing,

Travis Stevens (05:33.260)

like a jacket and they start on the feet

Lex Fridman (05:37.080)

and they get to grip each other

Lex Fridman (05:40.760)

and the scoring works by the more badass the throw is,

Lex Fridman (05:45.040)

the more points you get,

Lex Fridman (05:46.440)

and if you throw the person big and hard on their back,

Lex Fridman (05:52.800)

you win the match and it's over and that's called an Ippon.

Travis Stevens (05:55.600)

Yeah, which is equivalent to a knockout.

Lex Fridman (05:58.200)

So I guess there's no knockdowns in Judo.

Travis Stevens (06:01.120)

We don't count those.

Lex Fridman (06:02.120)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (06:02.960)

They gotta hit their back and they gotta hit it with force.

Lex Fridman (06:05.880)

And so there's a huge incentive for the big throws.

Travis Stevens (06:08.900)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (06:09.740)

And there's also the drama of somebody catching you off guard

Travis Stevens (06:15.600)

with a surprise big throw and it's over.

Lex Fridman (06:17.900)

Yep, there's two ways of losing really.

Lex Fridman (06:21.120)

There's the, I saw this coming, right?

Lex Fridman (06:25.280)

Like you just, you see it, but you can't stop it.

Lex Fridman (06:29.300)

And those ones tend to be the ones you can live with.

Lex Fridman (06:32.980)

The ones that are like really hard to live with

Lex Fridman (06:35.120)

are the ones you never saw coming, right?

Lex Fridman (06:37.320)

Cause that just shows that that person

Travis Stevens (06:39.640)

has really outclassed you.

Lex Fridman (06:41.440)

Right, so there's like a set of, a small set of throws.

Travis Stevens (06:44.760)

Maybe we can go through them that are like,

Lex Fridman (06:47.240)

you saw it coming, but you couldn't do anything about it.

Lex Fridman (06:49.920)

And then there's the set of throws

Lex Fridman (06:51.640)

that are more like surprises.

Lex Fridman (06:53.560)

So first of all, the counters,

Lex Fridman (06:55.360)

or if you fake one thing and go the other way,

Travis Stevens (06:58.440)

then that's a surprise and it's like, oh shit.

Lex Fridman (07:00.600)

You off balance the person because they think

Travis Stevens (07:03.560)

you're going one way and then you go the other way.

Lex Fridman (07:05.200)

And then there's this, oh shit moment.

Travis Stevens (07:06.640)

All of a sudden your back is just slammed on the ground.

Lex Fridman (07:10.400)

One of the ones, I mean, you're good at many throws,

Lex Fridman (07:12.560)

but one of them is a, that I think reveals

Lex Fridman (07:15.880)

the beauty of judo is the foot sweep.

Travis Stevens (07:19.640)

There's something about the off balance and the timing

Lex Fridman (07:21.920)

that if you catch them right, all of a sudden,

Travis Stevens (07:24.440)

it's like I had the same feeling when I went skydiving,

Lex Fridman (07:26.840)

like all of a sudden the ground is not under you anymore.

Travis Stevens (07:29.620)

Yeah, and you just, you go weightlessness

Lex Fridman (07:31.420)

for like a split second and you realize

Travis Stevens (07:33.320)

you've lost like all control of your limbs.

Lex Fridman (07:35.880)

Like it's like zero gravity, right?

Travis Stevens (07:38.480)

Like you just, you can't turn, you can't rotate,

Lex Fridman (07:40.680)

you can't do much of anything.

Lex Fridman (07:42.160)

And then before you know it, you've hit the floor.

Lex Fridman (07:44.080)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (07:45.120)

It's a cool feeling when you get thrown

Lex Fridman (07:49.180)

because you hope to do the same thing to another person.

Travis Stevens (07:51.760)

It's like, you just hit the ground hard

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because it's not, you didn't see it coming.

Travis Stevens (07:56.440)

It wasn't a big throw that got loaded up.

Lex Fridman (07:58.880)

It's like all of a sudden the surprise.

Lex Fridman (08:01.360)

And then like this, like feeling your back just slams

Lex Fridman (08:06.020)

and there's like the air is up.

Travis Stevens (08:07.760)

Yeah, and the worst is when you get hit twice

Lex Fridman (08:09.960)

with one throw, right?

Travis Stevens (08:11.080)

Because sometimes like the guy throwing you

Lex Fridman (08:14.040)

didn't expect you to leave either.

Lex Fridman (08:15.360)

So you hit and then that guy comes down

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like a second and a half later and it's like, boom, boom.

Lex Fridman (08:21.000)

And then the wind is just gone from you.

Lex Fridman (08:22.840)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (08:24.160)

Those are the worst.

Lex Fridman (08:25.040)

And then there's the disappointment.

Travis Stevens (08:26.740)

Like then the intellectual, the cognitive part comes in

Lex Fridman (08:30.480)

where you're like, oh shit, I just lost.

Travis Stevens (08:32.220)

Yep.

Lex Fridman (08:33.060)

And you don't have like a connection to why, right?

Travis Stevens (08:37.120)

It's almost like you've just,

Lex Fridman (08:38.140)

like you didn't literally get a concussion.

Travis Stevens (08:39.800)

Like you understand and remember everything,

Lex Fridman (08:43.040)

but you can't figure out how this just happened, right?

Travis Stevens (08:46.820)

Those are the tough ones to deal with.

Lex Fridman (08:49.160)

Actually, have you had moments like that

Lex Fridman (08:51.600)

where you don't understand how it happened?

Lex Fridman (08:53.160)

You have to watch footage to understand what happened?

Travis Stevens (08:55.040)

Even when you watch it, you're just like, I don't get it.

Lex Fridman (08:58.640)

Like, why wasn't I in a position to stop this?

Travis Stevens (09:03.440)

It makes zero sense.

Lex Fridman (09:06.020)

Conceptually, when you watch it, you're like,

Travis Stevens (09:08.460)

I understand how to play defense.

Lex Fridman (09:10.520)

I understand, it looks like I'm in a defensive position,

Lex Fridman (09:14.760)

but at the end of the day, I still got thrown.

Lex Fridman (09:18.520)

Yeah, you were talking about, what is it, a 2008 match.

Travis Stevens (09:22.880)

You have a non traditional gripping style.

Lex Fridman (09:26.040)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (09:26.860)

Is that accurate to say?

Lex Fridman (09:27.700)

And then you were going against another right handed player

Lex Fridman (09:30.720)

and then there was some kind of fake that he did

Lex Fridman (09:33.960)

and then he caught you.

Travis Stevens (09:35.660)

Yep.

Lex Fridman (09:36.500)

Can you describe the throw he caught you with?

Travis Stevens (09:38.600)

He caught me with a drop sale,

Lex Fridman (09:41.860)

but he kind of like, we were engaged.

Travis Stevens (09:45.520)

We were looking at each other

Lex Fridman (09:46.760)

and we were kind of at like a stalemate, right?

Travis Stevens (09:50.400)

He couldn't really advance, I couldn't really advance.

Lex Fridman (09:53.040)

And he kind of just let his gaze like wander off

Travis Stevens (09:56.560)

to the right, like he was looking at something.

Lex Fridman (09:58.400)

And then I kind of like, what's over there?

Lex Fridman (10:01.000)

And then I got thrown and it's like.

Lex Fridman (10:04.380)

So first of all, for people who don't know,

Travis Stevens (10:06.840)

Seio's Seinagi drop means when you drop to your knees

Lex Fridman (10:11.480)

and Seinagi is one of the fundamental throws of Judo.

Lex Fridman (10:14.620)

There's just a handful, but does that actually ever work?

Lex Fridman (10:18.720)

I always wondered that about like boxing or Judo.

Lex Fridman (10:22.520)

Does the head movement of the person work?

Lex Fridman (10:25.240)

Cause we're still like kind of dogs at heart.

Travis Stevens (10:27.520)

If you look somewhere with a dog,

Lex Fridman (10:29.520)

the dog is going to look that direction as well.

Lex Fridman (10:31.720)

Does that actually work ever?

Lex Fridman (10:33.080)

It does, but on a greater sense,

Lex Fridman (10:37.220)

what you try to do is not necessarily get

Lex Fridman (10:39.960)

like a physical reaction of a look,

Lex Fridman (10:42.980)

but a lull of security where like,

Lex Fridman (10:45.480)

they've almost like relaxed for that split second

Travis Stevens (10:48.720)

because you've lured them into like a sense of comfort.

Lex Fridman (10:52.720)

And then that's when you can strike.

Lex Fridman (10:55.400)

So you have this, speaking of Seinagi,

Lex Fridman (10:57.680)

you have this gigantic standing Seinagi.

Lex Fridman (11:02.160)

And you have a specific grip.

Lex Fridman (11:05.240)

One of our challenges is there's a large number of people

Travis Stevens (11:08.080)

that listen to the audio version of this.

Lex Fridman (11:10.280)

So we're gonna have to try to describe some of this stuff.

Travis Stevens (11:13.200)

I'll do my best to try to describe with words,

Lex Fridman (11:15.640)

but you have, you grip with your left hand

Travis Stevens (11:19.280)

on the lapel of the jacket or like that area.

Lex Fridman (11:23.800)

And there's kind of a lean into the person.

Lex Fridman (11:27.080)

And I suppose, is there a feeling of a lull there

Lex Fridman (11:29.320)

that you're trying to get to where you're just,

Travis Stevens (11:31.240)

it feels like you're both calmly dancing

Lex Fridman (11:33.640)

before you turn your hips and go in for the throw?

Travis Stevens (11:36.260)

I'm actually trying to create a sense of weightlessness

Lex Fridman (11:43.560)

for my lead leg, which would be my right leg.

Lex Fridman (11:46.100)

And a sense of resistance from my partner.

Lex Fridman (11:52.840)

So aren't you both kind of leaning into each other?

Lex Fridman (11:55.880)

And it creates like an A frame.

Lex Fridman (11:58.520)

But when the A frame is held together at the top half,

Travis Stevens (12:00.880)

which would be my left hand and their right hand

Lex Fridman (12:02.920)

posted on each other's chest,

Travis Stevens (12:04.560)

it means our legs are free to move

Lex Fridman (12:06.600)

and our hips are free to move.

Lex Fridman (12:08.040)

And they're not gonna feel your leg move.

Lex Fridman (12:10.700)

Because of the weightlessness.

Lex Fridman (12:12.040)

And is there a feeling like, for them,

Lex Fridman (12:14.200)

is there a feeling like nothing bad can happen here?

Lex Fridman (12:16.280)

We're all relaxed, everything's fine?

Lex Fridman (12:18.560)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (12:19.400)

And then they're standing off at a funny angle

Lex Fridman (12:21.360)

and before they know it, I've spun

Lex Fridman (12:23.340)

and my back is on their chest and they can't go anywhere.

Lex Fridman (12:25.800)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (12:26.820)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (12:27.660)

How did you first develop that throw?

Lex Fridman (12:29.060)

So for people, it's called Ippon Seinagi,

Lex Fridman (12:32.280)

which means your right hand goes under their armpit area.

Lex Fridman (12:36.880)

And that's like a vice that connects you to them.

Lex Fridman (12:41.760)

And then they go on for the ride.

Travis Stevens (12:44.180)

The interesting thing with the standing one

Lex Fridman (12:45.960)

is as opposed to drop Seinagi version,

Travis Stevens (12:49.760)

the drop Seinagi, you kind of drop under them.

Lex Fridman (12:54.200)

And because there's a vice,

Travis Stevens (12:55.800)

they're like pulled under and like over.

Lex Fridman (12:59.500)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (13:00.500)

With the standing one, I suppose there's some similar physics,

Lex Fridman (13:04.820)

but you're kind of loading them onto your hip.

Lex Fridman (13:07.360)

And so they're in the air while you're standing still.

Lex Fridman (13:11.080)

There's a sense in which they're like,

Travis Stevens (13:15.460)

you're lifting them above where they started.

Lex Fridman (13:19.060)

Yes.

Travis Stevens (13:19.900)

That's how you get the really big air.

Lex Fridman (13:22.260)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (13:23.100)

If obviously, if everything is right.

Lex Fridman (13:27.020)

So how did you first develop that?

Lex Fridman (13:28.780)

How did you first?

Lex Fridman (13:29.940)

I first learned just learning like the very basics

Travis Stevens (13:32.980)

of the throw, you know, foot placement,

Lex Fridman (13:35.460)

all that kind of stuff.

Lex Fridman (13:36.700)

And then, you know, like anything, the basics are nice,

Lex Fridman (13:41.300)

but once you get good at the basics,

Travis Stevens (13:43.180)

it's very easy to stop,

Lex Fridman (13:44.980)

but it gives you a good like fundamental platform

Travis Stevens (13:47.460)

to learn off of and to expand off of.

Lex Fridman (13:51.440)

And then I expanded when I first started watching Koga,

Lex Fridman (13:54.860)

the new wind, right?

Lex Fridman (13:56.220)

Cause he's the one that first like introduced

Travis Stevens (13:59.300)

that split hip style Seinagi that I do.

Lex Fridman (14:02.180)

Once I learned that one,

Travis Stevens (14:06.300)

I built about eight different variations of Seio

Lex Fridman (14:11.020)

off that one start position.

Travis Stevens (14:13.300)

That way I could, regardless of your defense,

Lex Fridman (14:15.660)

I had an answer for a throw.

Lex Fridman (14:18.060)

So why that one though?

Lex Fridman (14:19.260)

Why, can you describe love to me, Travis Stevens?

Lex Fridman (14:22.660)

Why'd you fall in love with that throw in particular?

Lex Fridman (14:26.260)

It was really a sense of, you know,

Travis Stevens (14:30.180)

one of my shortcomings as a kid, like,

Lex Fridman (14:32.740)

I hate leg day in the gym.

Travis Stevens (14:35.460)

I hate it with a passion.

Lex Fridman (14:37.120)

I, if you asked me to do a squat, I'll get it done,

Lex Fridman (14:41.260)

but I will bitch and moan every step of the way.

Lex Fridman (14:44.040)

I hate it.

Travis Stevens (14:44.880)

I remember one time I was at the gym with my trainer

Lex Fridman (14:46.860)

and he goes, okay, we're going to do front squats.

Lex Fridman (14:48.740)

And I want you to put 225 on the bar.

Lex Fridman (14:50.500)

And I was like, I can't do that.

Lex Fridman (14:52.800)

And he was like, what do you mean you can't do that?

Lex Fridman (14:54.900)

And I go, I physically, I can't do that.

Lex Fridman (14:58.060)

And he was like, are you serious?

Lex Fridman (15:00.380)

And I go, yeah.

Lex Fridman (15:01.220)

So he's, he didn't believe me.

Lex Fridman (15:02.700)

We put 225 on the bar and I bottomed out.

Lex Fridman (15:05.280)

And then he was like, okay, let's go down to 185.

Lex Fridman (15:06.900)

And I was like, I can't do that.

Travis Stevens (15:08.540)

I just, that's not happening.

Lex Fridman (15:10.260)

You probably could, strength wise, you just refuse.

Travis Stevens (15:12.820)

I just mentally, I cannot wrap my head around like,

Lex Fridman (15:15.820)

this ain't happening.

Travis Stevens (15:16.980)

I'm not doing it.

Lex Fridman (15:17.820)

So I ended up with like 95 pounds on the bar.

Travis Stevens (15:21.780)

I got you at a front squat, no problem.

Lex Fridman (15:23.900)

By the way, body weight squats are rough too, psychologically.

Lex Fridman (15:27.020)

So yeah, I just, when it comes to my legs,

Lex Fridman (15:29.420)

like I want no part of like leg pressing,

Travis Stevens (15:33.800)

single leg squats, split squat,

Lex Fridman (15:35.500)

any of that, I want no part of it.

Lex Fridman (15:36.980)

So you think like the more traditional variants

Lex Fridman (15:39.140)

of Sanagi require you to have that leg strength,

Travis Stevens (15:42.460)

that mass.

Lex Fridman (15:43.420)

Like when you watch Japanese Judo players,

Travis Stevens (15:45.120)

like their thighs and their hips, they're thick.

Lex Fridman (15:48.140)

They got a lot of power there.

Lex Fridman (15:50.060)

So you're almost like always dropping a little bit

Lex Fridman (15:52.700)

into a squat position.

Travis Stevens (15:54.340)

For mine, never.

Lex Fridman (15:55.420)

No, no, no, not you, sorry.

Travis Stevens (15:56.740)

For the traditional ones.

Lex Fridman (15:58.100)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (15:58.940)

And so the split hip,

Lex Fridman (16:00.700)

the split hip actually allows me to keep my legs straight.

Lex Fridman (16:03.980)

And the farther I split my legs,

Lex Fridman (16:05.460)

the lower my center of gravity goes.

Travis Stevens (16:07.300)

Now I don't need my legs.

Lex Fridman (16:08.800)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (16:09.640)

Perfect.

Lex Fridman (16:10.460)

Love it.

Travis Stevens (16:11.300)

Let's do it.

Lex Fridman (16:12.120)

So that's the way you were thinking about it.

Travis Stevens (16:12.960)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (16:14.040)

But it's, you know, the interesting thing about it

Travis Stevens (16:16.620)

is because, you know, as I mentioned to you,

Lex Fridman (16:19.500)

I've gotten to Judo after first watching you

Travis Stevens (16:22.640)

in the Olympics and then watching Koga as well.

Lex Fridman (16:26.700)

And so you start imitating the people you foresee

Lex Fridman (16:29.660)

and then you take it to Judo coaches

Lex Fridman (16:31.660)

and they're like, no, no, no, no,

Travis Stevens (16:32.660)

that's the wrong way to do it.

Lex Fridman (16:34.680)

And happens all the time.

Travis Stevens (16:36.260)

It drives me nuts, drives me nuts.

Lex Fridman (16:38.600)

I was in Poland one time teaching a camp

Lex Fridman (16:41.900)

and I had two coaches anti coaching,

Lex Fridman (16:46.460)

telling their kids not to do Seio the way I do it

Travis Stevens (16:49.060)

because it never works.

Lex Fridman (16:50.260)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (16:51.100)

It's crazy.

Lex Fridman (16:51.980)

How do you have the fortitude and the guts

Travis Stevens (16:55.500)

to just go on with a throw that's not traditional,

Lex Fridman (16:58.140)

a variant that's not traditional?

Travis Stevens (17:01.880)

If you think about it, you know,

Lex Fridman (17:04.080)

from a very basic like root of it,

Travis Stevens (17:08.540)

there's a philosophy and a mentality of Judo

Lex Fridman (17:11.180)

of how the throws work, right?

Travis Stevens (17:13.380)

There's a mechanical structure there of like,

Lex Fridman (17:16.140)

this makes sense.

Travis Stevens (17:18.220)

If I follow that principle, I can do anything I want.

Lex Fridman (17:22.100)

Nothing else matters.

Travis Stevens (17:23.320)

As long as we follow those core principles.

Lex Fridman (17:25.580)

So in the early days, even then,

Travis Stevens (17:28.500)

you were able to think on your own.

Lex Fridman (17:29.900)

Yeah, and I was able to develop a pattern

Travis Stevens (17:33.060)

for my foot placement based on my opponent's height.

Lex Fridman (17:36.720)

Because the number one thing any Judo coach would tell you

Travis Stevens (17:39.860)

is you need your center of gravity below yours.

Lex Fridman (17:42.720)

Well, now I know exactly where to put my feet

Travis Stevens (17:45.380)

because the shorter you are, the bigger the split

Lex Fridman (17:48.540)

because the lower I need to get.

Travis Stevens (17:49.760)

The taller you are, the less of a split I need.

Lex Fridman (17:52.580)

Is there something you could say

Lex Fridman (17:53.620)

about fundamental principles of Judo?

Lex Fridman (17:57.200)

Is there, over all that time,

Travis Stevens (18:00.180)

not over 20 years that you've been doing Judo,

Lex Fridman (18:04.300)

it's not approaching 30, is it?

Travis Stevens (18:06.020)

Yeah, it's getting there.

Lex Fridman (18:09.500)

Okay, it's getting there.

Travis Stevens (18:10.340)

We're a couple years away, but it's getting there.

Lex Fridman (18:13.620)

Is there some like principles that have emerged?

Travis Stevens (18:17.100)

Like you said, you have to have your center of gravity

Lex Fridman (18:19.900)

below theirs.

Travis Stevens (18:21.140)

Is there other kind of, both on the gripping side,

Lex Fridman (18:24.060)

the footwork side, leverage, anything you can speak to?

Travis Stevens (18:28.140)

There's some that have withstood like time,

Lex Fridman (18:31.700)

like you have to be able to get below

Travis Stevens (18:35.340)

their center of gravity

Lex Fridman (18:36.420)

because you have to be able to rotate them

Travis Stevens (18:38.920)

around their center of gravity.

Lex Fridman (18:40.680)

And then the other one is,

Travis Stevens (18:43.000)

that was always a principle when I was growing up

Lex Fridman (18:45.180)

and I didn't change until later on in my career was,

Travis Stevens (18:48.180)

you have to be able to pull.

Lex Fridman (18:50.020)

You need to be able to pull to get them off balance.

Lex Fridman (18:53.820)

But when you think about that statement as a whole,

Lex Fridman (18:56.300)

it ended with, they have to be off balance.

Travis Stevens (18:59.540)

I don't need to pull to get you off balance.

Lex Fridman (19:01.880)

I just need you off balance.

Lex Fridman (19:04.020)

And when you think about it that way,

Lex Fridman (19:05.540)

it allows you to open up the doors to,

Lex Fridman (19:08.520)

what do I need to do to get you off balance?

Lex Fridman (19:11.040)

I could push, pull, I could flinch, I could fake,

Lex Fridman (19:14.300)

and you could put yourself in your own off balance state.

Lex Fridman (19:17.320)

When you think about people who wrestle,

Travis Stevens (19:22.160)

if I fake shoot, it causes you to over lean forward,

Lex Fridman (19:25.440)

which means you're off balance.

Travis Stevens (19:27.280)

There's no pull, there's no push, there's no nothing.

Lex Fridman (19:29.360)

I just get a reaction that leaves the opportunity

Travis Stevens (19:32.420)

in the door open for an attack.

Lex Fridman (19:34.640)

And that off balance could be very subtle?

Travis Stevens (19:36.720)

Could be very subtle.

Lex Fridman (19:38.220)

And the better you get and the more skills you get,

Travis Stevens (19:41.240)

the less subtle it is.

Lex Fridman (19:44.840)

So we should also mention that there is something called

Travis Stevens (19:46.980)

forward throws, where you throw the person,

Lex Fridman (19:52.740)

they're gonna fly facing forward,

Travis Stevens (19:54.840)

they're gonna fly forward.

Lex Fridman (19:56.800)

And then a backward throw, they're gonna fly back.

Travis Stevens (1:00:01.340)

Cause I was like, I was struggling.

Lex Fridman (1:00:04.880)

And we're talking about, I mean, how many hours is that?

Travis Stevens (1:00:07.580)

Hours.

Lex Fridman (1:00:08.420)

And then the thing is,

Travis Stevens (1:00:09.260)

is because you have to reserve the sauna.

Lex Fridman (1:00:11.360)

I can't even take like a 30 minute break

Travis Stevens (1:00:13.320)

because the sauna is not going to be mine in an hour,

Lex Fridman (1:00:16.140)

which means you have to use the sauna and the heat

Travis Stevens (1:00:19.180)

for that allotted time period.

Lex Fridman (1:00:21.180)

And I hate saunas.

Travis Stevens (1:00:23.260)

That is always my last resort.

Lex Fridman (1:00:25.540)

I would use a bath.

Travis Stevens (1:00:26.620)

I will train.

Lex Fridman (1:00:27.500)

I will run.

Travis Stevens (1:00:28.340)

I will jump rope.

Lex Fridman (1:00:29.660)

Sauna is like, oh, let me do that for 10 minutes

Travis Stevens (1:00:32.740)

after all of my gym workouts,

Lex Fridman (1:00:34.860)

just to keep the sweat going while I stretch and cool down.

Travis Stevens (1:00:37.820)

That's never like the, hey,

Lex Fridman (1:00:39.420)

I'm going to do five, 10 minute sessions

Travis Stevens (1:00:41.200)

because I need to lose two kilos.

Lex Fridman (1:00:43.420)

That is never the plan.

Travis Stevens (1:00:44.820)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:00:46.940)

But I mean, so I've done plenty of sauna for weight cuts

Travis Stevens (1:00:50.980)

to know I can't even imagine what you went through.

Lex Fridman (1:00:54.020)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:00:54.860)

And the seconds slow down.

Lex Fridman (1:00:56.900)

That's one way to achieve immortality is like

Travis Stevens (1:00:59.540)

the time slows down to like a stop

Lex Fridman (1:01:02.020)

and you're left alone with your thoughts.

Travis Stevens (1:01:04.460)

You can't do anything.

Lex Fridman (1:01:05.300)

Just like you said, you can't.

Travis Stevens (1:01:06.420)

There's nothing worse than sitting in that kind of heat

Lex Fridman (1:01:09.080)

for 10, 15 minutes.

Travis Stevens (1:01:11.140)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:01:11.980)

And then you walk out and you're not even sweating.

Travis Stevens (1:01:15.180)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:01:16.020)

There's nothing worse than that.

Lex Fridman (1:01:17.060)

And if you like, and maybe if you weigh yourself,

Lex Fridman (1:01:19.380)

which you probably shouldn't be doing

Travis Stevens (1:01:20.780)

because it'll break you.

Lex Fridman (1:01:21.700)

Yep.

Travis Stevens (1:01:22.540)

You haven't lost anything.

Lex Fridman (1:01:23.420)

Yep.

Lex Fridman (1:01:25.100)

And I was weighing myself every time

Lex Fridman (1:01:26.820)

because I only get breaks

Travis Stevens (1:01:28.760)

when I was hitting weight allotments.

Lex Fridman (1:01:31.340)

And so if I could lose 0.3 in 10 minutes,

Travis Stevens (1:01:34.220)

I'd give myself a break, but I had to hit certain numbers

Lex Fridman (1:01:37.580)

because I only have the sauna for a certain amount of time.

Lex Fridman (1:01:40.260)

And I remember one time I went downstairs

Lex Fridman (1:01:42.500)

to get my key to the sauna

Lex Fridman (1:01:44.180)

and the Japanese team had reserved it and took it from me

Lex Fridman (1:01:47.860)

because the guy didn't put my name on the list

Travis Stevens (1:01:49.300)

when I called down to get the sauna.

Lex Fridman (1:01:51.040)

So I lost an entire session that I had to get made up

Travis Stevens (1:01:54.060)

towards the later part of the day

Lex Fridman (1:01:55.500)

because I still have no running shoes.

Lex Fridman (1:01:57.860)

And then sure enough, my bags show up 30 minutes

Lex Fridman (1:02:01.340)

after weigh ins.

Travis Stevens (1:02:03.980)

Great.

Lex Fridman (1:02:04.940)

That's like the universe just kind of giving you

Travis Stevens (1:02:07.380)

a little wink there.

Lex Fridman (1:02:08.580)

Yep.

Travis Stevens (1:02:10.660)

I think like, because so few people do this weight cut

Lex Fridman (1:02:15.060)

at this high of a level, people don't often realize

Travis Stevens (1:02:18.340)

because people get a sense of how hard it is

Lex Fridman (1:02:20.020)

to run 200 miles in the desert.

Travis Stevens (1:02:22.580)

Like they, cause they go outside here in Texas,

Lex Fridman (1:02:25.580)

you can run five miles.

Travis Stevens (1:02:26.580)

Oh, it's hard.

Lex Fridman (1:02:27.620)

But like the weight cut is really,

Lex Fridman (1:02:30.500)

I, can you, so you just, like, how did you do it?

Lex Fridman (1:02:34.960)

Just fucking not refusing to.

Travis Stevens (1:02:37.920)

You have to make weight.

Lex Fridman (1:02:38.940)

You have to make weight and you just, that's.

Travis Stevens (1:02:41.340)

I am astounded when I hear like UFC fighters like miss weight.

Lex Fridman (1:02:50.340)

Right?

Travis Stevens (1:02:51.620)

Like when Jaden Cox missed weight at the Olympic trials,

Lex Fridman (1:02:56.220)

I was like, at least his was understandable

Travis Stevens (1:02:59.940)

because he missed the actual weigh ins.

Lex Fridman (1:03:03.020)

He didn't, he wasn't like not on weight.

Lex Fridman (1:03:05.820)

But when UFC fighters like miss weight,

Lex Fridman (1:03:08.660)

I'm like, how did that happen?

Travis Stevens (1:03:12.340)

You clearly like gave up a long time ago.

Lex Fridman (1:03:16.540)

There were times where I was like, well, I can't do this.

Travis Stevens (1:03:19.940)

There've been times where I've been in a sauna suit

Lex Fridman (1:03:23.780)

wrestling with a training partner who's probably 60 kilos

Travis Stevens (1:03:27.240)

who fought earlier that day to lose point three.

Lex Fridman (1:03:31.340)

Did lose point three.

Lex Fridman (1:03:32.980)

Like, are you considering your mortality in this moment?

Lex Fridman (1:03:35.800)

Like, aren't you thinking you're going to die?

Travis Stevens (1:03:39.420)

Because like, it's severe dehydration.

Lex Fridman (1:03:41.340)

You could damage your body.

Travis Stevens (1:03:44.220)

Are you thinking about any of this or is it just, man.

Lex Fridman (1:03:51.780)

OK, yes.

Lex Fridman (1:03:52.580)

But see, I'm on the other level too where like,

Lex Fridman (1:03:55.500)

I've been in Belgium, right?

Travis Stevens (1:03:57.100)

Belgium, there used to be a B level tournament.

Lex Fridman (1:03:59.860)

And the tournament used to go on.

Lex Fridman (1:04:01.860)

And because I was always on the heavier side,

Lex Fridman (1:04:03.900)

like 81s fights on the second day, which is the heavyweight day,

Travis Stevens (1:04:08.140)

weigh ins were always at like, let's say,

Lex Fridman (1:04:10.260)

2 p.m. the day before for that tournament.

Travis Stevens (1:04:12.540)

Well, there was a sauna at the tournament.

Lex Fridman (1:04:15.100)

I remember like being in the sauna and like, oh, I'm 80.9 kilos.

Travis Stevens (1:04:22.820)

Weigh ins aren't for three hours.

Lex Fridman (1:04:24.100)

Fuck it, I'm going to have lunch.

Travis Stevens (1:04:29.220)

Because I mentally understand that what I eat right now

Lex Fridman (1:04:33.700)

is going to fuel me for tomorrow.

Lex Fridman (1:04:35.900)

So I don't want to skip it.

Lex Fridman (1:04:37.500)

I have the time to put it into my system and still lose it.

Travis Stevens (1:04:41.740)

It's almost like a computer program.

Lex Fridman (1:04:43.180)

You're running through the process.

Travis Stevens (1:04:46.100)

I get it, but like that all relies on your ability to be.

Lex Fridman (1:04:50.340)

To get it back off.

Travis Stevens (1:04:51.460)

Yeah, I mean, but also just like go through this process,

Lex Fridman (1:04:53.900)

which is painful.

Travis Stevens (1:04:54.700)

It's like those monks who meditate while sitting in a fire

Lex Fridman (1:04:57.020)

kind of thing or something, right?

Travis Stevens (1:05:00.660)

Yeah, it's really interesting.

Lex Fridman (1:05:02.500)

Is there other people that are critical to this

Lex Fridman (1:05:05.580)

or is this all internal to you?

Lex Fridman (1:05:07.460)

Are there people that?

Travis Stevens (1:05:09.820)

Everybody has their own way of doing it.

Lex Fridman (1:05:14.180)

Some people don't cut that much.

Lex Fridman (1:05:15.980)

Some people can't weight cut at all, right?

Lex Fridman (1:05:18.300)

They would rather have been like 83 kilos fighting 90

Travis Stevens (1:05:22.580)

than, you know, be 83 kilos fighting 81.

Lex Fridman (1:05:28.980)

So why did you never move up to 90?

Lex Fridman (1:05:32.540)

What's your sense?

Lex Fridman (1:05:33.780)

Is it from your deep understanding of your own judo

Lex Fridman (1:05:36.460)

and like the judo opponents you would face at 90 and 81?

Lex Fridman (1:05:40.540)

Cause 81 is probably the hardest,

Travis Stevens (1:05:42.980)

if not the second hardest division in the history of judo

Lex Fridman (1:05:45.820)

compared to 73 and 81.

Travis Stevens (1:05:49.100)

You know, when I was a kid, like I always wanted to be

Lex Fridman (1:05:52.740)

like the middleweight Olympic champion,

Travis Stevens (1:05:54.660)

like the 81 kilo Olympic champion.

Lex Fridman (1:05:57.300)

When I was in high school, I made a decision

Travis Stevens (1:06:00.140)

when I was trying to make weight for 73,

Lex Fridman (1:06:01.940)

I was like, I was cutting weight for 73

Lex Fridman (1:06:05.860)

like I was cutting weight at the end of my career, right?

Lex Fridman (1:06:09.020)

And I was like, I'm just gonna bag it.

Travis Stevens (1:06:11.580)

I'm gonna accept the fact

Lex Fridman (1:06:12.660)

that I may not make a junior world team,

Travis Stevens (1:06:14.260)

I may not make this team, but I'll grow into the division

Lex Fridman (1:06:18.020)

so when I'm a senior player, like I'm ready to go

Lex Fridman (1:06:20.500)

and I'll naturally be stronger.

Lex Fridman (1:06:22.700)

There's an understanding of like a growth process

Travis Stevens (1:06:25.020)

when you move up a weight class.

Lex Fridman (1:06:27.180)

Most people can't just, oh, I'm gonna fight 90s

Lex Fridman (1:06:31.540)

and I'm gonna win because I wanted 81.

Lex Fridman (1:06:33.860)

The style of judo is different, how you move is different,

Lex Fridman (1:06:37.260)

how they do things is different.

Lex Fridman (1:06:38.700)

There's like a learning curve that goes into it.

Lex Fridman (1:06:41.980)

And because the weight cut didn't really happen

Lex Fridman (1:06:45.180)

until I was getting ready for Rio,

Travis Stevens (1:06:47.500)

I wasn't about to have my last Olympic games

Lex Fridman (1:06:49.860)

be at a different weight class

Travis Stevens (1:06:51.020)

that I may or may not be able to grow into.

Lex Fridman (1:06:53.820)

I mean, this is an awesome story of you kind of decided

Travis Stevens (1:06:57.860)

that this will be your life's work

Lex Fridman (1:06:59.820)

in terms of judo competitor is like the 81 division.

Travis Stevens (1:07:03.540)

I'm going to, I mean, I don't know if you saw it that way,

Lex Fridman (1:07:05.700)

but you're talking about three Olympics

Lex Fridman (1:07:07.660)

and it's like this story of, I would say tragedy and triumph

Lex Fridman (1:07:13.540)

of just wars and 81 kilograms with the usual cast

Travis Stevens (1:07:18.660)

of characters of the top five in the world kind of thing.

Lex Fridman (1:07:21.980)

So you just became a scholar of that,

Travis Stevens (1:07:24.540)

let your body grow into it and then let your body outgrow it

Lex Fridman (1:07:28.020)

and still suffer through it to keep it in the 81 kilograms.

Travis Stevens (1:07:31.700)

You never competed at like at the highest levels at 90.

Lex Fridman (1:07:34.940)

I entered one tournament at 90 kilos.

Lex Fridman (1:07:37.980)

And that was because before Rio from the end of 2014,

Lex Fridman (1:07:46.980)

all the way up until Rio's, every time I fought,

Travis Stevens (1:07:49.700)

I got hurt every time there was no time where I made weight

Lex Fridman (1:07:54.580)

and got injured because my body weight was so high.

Travis Stevens (1:07:57.300)

My body fat was so low that by the time I dehydrated enough

Lex Fridman (1:08:01.220)

to get down there and you take the physicality of judo

Lex Fridman (1:08:04.420)

and throw that into the mix, something broke every time.

Lex Fridman (1:08:08.020)

It was like nature of the beast.

Lex Fridman (1:08:11.260)

So the plan was before Rio,

Lex Fridman (1:08:17.020)

we made an agreement with USA judo

Travis Stevens (1:08:19.060)

that Travis, you're gonna fight 90 kilos,

Lex Fridman (1:08:21.980)

but you're not gonna weigh in at 90 kilos.

Travis Stevens (1:08:23.740)

Like, hey, there's no like, you get to be 94 kilos

Lex Fridman (1:08:27.100)

and cut to 90s, there's like a,

Travis Stevens (1:08:29.260)

you're gonna step on the scale at 84 kilos,

Lex Fridman (1:08:31.960)

like a little bit of a weight cut, but not a full one,

Travis Stevens (1:08:34.920)

just so that you feel like you get into like the tournament.

Lex Fridman (1:08:38.180)

Because when I, around 2012,

Travis Stevens (1:08:41.380)

when I was talking with the USOC nutritionist,

Lex Fridman (1:08:44.500)

I actually got my weight down so much

Travis Stevens (1:08:46.180)

that I didn't really need to cut weight.

Lex Fridman (1:08:48.320)

The problem is, is I wasn't cutting weight,

Travis Stevens (1:08:49.760)

I didn't feel like I was competing.

Lex Fridman (1:08:51.420)

Got it.

Travis Stevens (1:08:52.260)

Right, you have to go through like that mental process.

Lex Fridman (1:08:55.140)

And I never really reworked that,

Travis Stevens (1:08:56.580)

it was easier to just cut the weight and be ready to go.

Lex Fridman (1:09:00.960)

But when I entered into the 90 kilo division,

Travis Stevens (1:09:02.960)

I was rushed to the hospital the night after

Lex Fridman (1:09:05.180)

because my body broke out in hives, like full body.

Travis Stevens (1:09:09.500)

They said it was stress induced.

Lex Fridman (1:09:13.480)

Fascinating.

Lex Fridman (1:09:14.460)

So a month before the games, I was hospitalized and hungry

Lex Fridman (1:09:18.380)

and filled with steroids to get the hives to drop.

Lex Fridman (1:09:21.820)

And every couple days, my body, when I got back home,

Lex Fridman (1:09:25.620)

I would end up in the hospital

Travis Stevens (1:09:27.300)

because my whole body would break out again.

Lex Fridman (1:09:29.020)

I wonder if it's like deviating from the process

Travis Stevens (1:09:31.100)

that you so like perfectly crafted already.

Lex Fridman (1:09:34.220)

Or it was stress from my mind thinking,

Travis Stevens (1:09:36.740)

like even though it's not top of mind,

Lex Fridman (1:09:39.700)

there's probably a portion of me that like the Olympics

Travis Stevens (1:09:41.820)

is coming around and it could be my last, that like my body

Lex Fridman (1:09:46.020)

just reacted to something chemically.

Lex Fridman (1:09:48.980)

So I was breaking out in hives.

Lex Fridman (1:09:50.880)

I actually bought like a 600 euro Hugo boss suit

Travis Stevens (1:09:55.740)

because when I was in the Netherlands training at the time,

Lex Fridman (1:09:59.100)

I thought I had bed bugs

Travis Stevens (1:10:00.780)

because I was getting bit everywhere.

Lex Fridman (1:10:02.700)

Then I thought there was something in the detergent

Travis Stevens (1:10:04.660)

at the local thing, so I threw away all my clothes.

Lex Fridman (1:10:07.560)

Like I was paying for showers

Travis Stevens (1:10:09.260)

because I was trying to get the detergent off my body

Lex Fridman (1:10:11.740)

and buying new clothes at the airport.

Travis Stevens (1:10:14.940)

Trying to figure it out.

Lex Fridman (1:10:16.140)

Trying to figure it out and just go, yeah,

Travis Stevens (1:10:18.100)

accepting the situation.

Lex Fridman (1:10:19.220)

I mean, but the level of stress is exceptionally high here.

Lex Fridman (1:10:22.300)

Can we talk about the other side?

Lex Fridman (1:10:24.580)

People are gonna love this.

Lex Fridman (1:10:26.740)

But you have a long history of persevering through injuries,

Lex Fridman (1:10:34.460)

through insane amounts of injuries.

Travis Stevens (1:10:37.660)

My ability to tolerate pain

Lex Fridman (1:10:39.060)

is probably more than most people.

Lex Fridman (1:10:41.740)

But see, injuries aren't just pain, right?

Lex Fridman (1:10:44.760)

It's like, it's also mental, like psychological.

Travis Stevens (1:10:49.180)

Like again, like the weight cut,

Lex Fridman (1:10:51.260)

it can make a lot of people quit.

Travis Stevens (1:10:53.040)

Yep.

Lex Fridman (1:10:54.420)

Can you tell your history of injuries?

Lex Fridman (1:10:57.940)

What are the biggest injuries,

Lex Fridman (1:10:59.660)

the toughest injuries in your career?

Lex Fridman (1:11:02.740)

Starting from what, your early teens?

Lex Fridman (1:11:05.460)

My early teens, I actually got out of sports

Travis Stevens (1:11:09.820)

from 11 to, I wanna say like 15 years old, 16 years old,

Lex Fridman (1:11:15.340)

because a kid shot a double leg through my kneecap

Lex Fridman (1:11:18.740)

and I partially tore all the ligaments in my knee,

Lex Fridman (1:11:21.100)

cartilage, meniscus, the whole nine yards.

Lex Fridman (1:11:23.580)

And I had to learn how to walk again.

Lex Fridman (1:11:25.340)

I spent two years in a leg brace, crutches,

Travis Stevens (1:11:29.780)

hobbling around the school yard.

Lex Fridman (1:11:32.100)

That one was a challenge to come back from.

Travis Stevens (1:11:36.180)

I've broken most of my ribs.

Lex Fridman (1:11:39.160)

I won nationals with nine broken ribs.

Travis Stevens (1:11:42.060)

I was actually getting Novocaine shots into my chest

Lex Fridman (1:11:45.540)

to avoid feeling the pain

Lex Fridman (1:11:47.420)

and then wrapping them to try to

Lex Fridman (1:11:49.780)

make sure I didn't pop alone.

Travis Stevens (1:11:53.860)

I've broken my collarbone.

Lex Fridman (1:11:55.980)

I have five herniated disc in my neck.

Travis Stevens (1:11:58.400)

I fractured my back twice.

Lex Fridman (1:12:00.720)

I've broken my tailbone.

Travis Stevens (1:12:02.300)

I tore my SI joints.

Lex Fridman (1:12:04.780)

I've torn my right hamstring twice, my left one once.

Travis Stevens (1:12:12.060)

Broken my ankles a few times.

Lex Fridman (1:12:13.920)

I spun it once in a 360 that had dev surgery.

Travis Stevens (1:12:18.140)

Fingers, toes, elbows, shoulders.

Lex Fridman (1:12:20.860)

So all of these are, first of all,

Travis Stevens (1:12:23.620)

you're a tough dude, man.

Lex Fridman (1:12:28.620)

So each of those have a story behind them.

Lex Fridman (1:12:33.720)

So if you're talking about the collarbone or the ankles

Lex Fridman (1:12:38.940)

or the back, the neck,

Travis Stevens (1:12:41.260)

is there interesting stories here

Lex Fridman (1:12:43.100)

that are behind these injuries?

Travis Stevens (1:12:44.740)

Hard training, hard competing, jiu jitsu, judo.

Lex Fridman (1:12:49.820)

So ground stuff like sparring in the dojo

Travis Stevens (1:12:53.780)

or like drilling or all that kind of stuff.

Lex Fridman (1:12:56.520)

If you were to sort of break it down,

Travis Stevens (1:12:59.260)

your understanding of the landscape

Lex Fridman (1:13:01.080)

of injuries you went through.

Travis Stevens (1:13:03.120)

I've never had one in jiu jitsu, ever.

Lex Fridman (1:13:07.880)

I mean, I might've like torn a fingernail

Travis Stevens (1:13:09.940)

or like gotten key burned,

Lex Fridman (1:13:12.880)

but I've never been like seriously injured.

Travis Stevens (1:13:16.840)

I know when Ponza straight ankle locked me at Copa Podio,

Lex Fridman (1:13:21.840)

that hurt, but I wasn't injured.

Travis Stevens (1:13:24.680)

Like it felt sore, but if I had to run, I could run.

Lex Fridman (1:13:28.760)

I can now understand probably exactly

Lex Fridman (1:13:31.200)

what the injuries came from then.

Lex Fridman (1:13:33.000)

You very quickly excelled at jiu jitsu.

Travis Stevens (1:13:36.360)

You achieved another level in judo.

Lex Fridman (1:13:39.040)

And I think that means the intensity

Travis Stevens (1:13:41.880)

with which you approached judo.

Lex Fridman (1:13:44.280)

To achieve that world class level

Travis Stevens (1:13:47.000)

probably is the source of the injuries.

Lex Fridman (1:13:49.280)

Yeah, because the mentality of how I approached judo

Travis Stevens (1:13:55.400)

versus jiu jitsu.

Lex Fridman (1:13:57.120)

Jiu jitsu to me is like a game that like we would play.

Travis Stevens (1:14:02.840)

Like if you wanted to like grab a basketball

Lex Fridman (1:14:04.680)

and like go play a game of one on one,

Travis Stevens (1:14:07.520)

that's like jiu jitsu to me.

Lex Fridman (1:14:09.040)

Like I can't take the sport in its entirety seriously.

Travis Stevens (1:14:13.720)

Cause I feel like the community of jiu jitsu

Lex Fridman (1:14:15.680)

doesn't take it seriously.

Lex Fridman (1:14:17.360)

So just for people who don't know,

Lex Fridman (1:14:19.240)

just to set some context,

Travis Stevens (1:14:21.400)

you're a black belt in jiu jitsu,

Lex Fridman (1:14:24.080)

but more importantly,

Travis Stevens (1:14:25.640)

you've beaten a lot of world class jiu jitsu people.

Lex Fridman (1:14:29.920)

You've done very well at the highest levels of competition.

Travis Stevens (1:14:33.040)

Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily say I've beaten them

Lex Fridman (1:14:35.440)

as much as I've trained with them.

Lex Fridman (1:14:39.080)

And they understand whoever it is

Lex Fridman (1:14:43.000)

that through training with me,

Travis Stevens (1:14:45.520)

that like, I'm not just a judo guy.

Lex Fridman (1:14:48.640)

Like I know how to do jiu jitsu, right?

Lex Fridman (1:14:52.040)

And if any one of them were to come to me and like say,

Lex Fridman (1:14:56.680)

hey, I wanna feel what it feels like to do judo with me.

Travis Stevens (1:15:05.600)

They would quickly understand

Lex Fridman (1:15:07.280)

that like the way I approach one

Travis Stevens (1:15:09.560)

is very different than the way I approach the other.

Lex Fridman (1:15:12.040)

Like we probably wouldn't be friends

Travis Stevens (1:15:14.160)

if they did judo with me versus if they did jiu jitsu with me.

Lex Fridman (1:15:17.440)

I'm curious asking for a friend

Travis Stevens (1:15:19.440)

because mostly because I'll do a little judo with you today.

Lex Fridman (1:15:22.880)

So you clearly, cause you're a great instructor and teacher,

Travis Stevens (1:15:25.600)

you have a mode where you can demonstrate a technique.

Lex Fridman (1:15:28.520)

Do you know how to like spar where you're going like 50%?

Travis Stevens (1:15:34.920)

It's hard to put like a percentage to it

Lex Fridman (1:15:37.040)

because I've never in all of my jiu jitsu ever gone 100%.

Lex Fridman (1:15:42.640)

In jiu jitsu?

Lex Fridman (1:15:43.480)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (1:15:44.320)

Like I had a conversation with Salo one time

Lex Fridman (1:15:47.520)

where we were talking about like jiu jitsu and training.

Lex Fridman (1:15:51.200)

And I was like, well, if I got his arm, I would just break it.

Lex Fridman (1:15:55.520)

And he was like, but what if he tapped?

Travis Stevens (1:15:59.280)

I go, that's not my responsibility.

Lex Fridman (1:16:03.000)

If he taps and the ref doesn't say anything,

Travis Stevens (1:16:04.800)

you just break it.

Lex Fridman (1:16:05.880)

You just keep going.

Travis Stevens (1:16:07.320)

He goes, but the tap means it's over.

Lex Fridman (1:16:08.920)

And I said, no, the ref tells me when it's over.

Travis Stevens (1:16:11.280)

I go, I never give you the opportunity to tap.

Lex Fridman (1:16:14.360)

Cause if you have the opportunity to tap,

Travis Stevens (1:16:16.320)

that means you had the opportunity to think about

Lex Fridman (1:16:18.520)

how to get out, make a decision that you can't, then tap.

Travis Stevens (1:16:23.200)

I clearly operated too slowly.

Lex Fridman (1:16:26.040)

So there's a, it's either broken or I don't have it.

Travis Stevens (1:16:29.480)

You're a terrifying person to go against in Judo.

Lex Fridman (1:16:33.160)

Like on the ground, like everything you did, that's amazing.

Travis Stevens (1:16:38.160)

That's really amazing.

Lex Fridman (1:16:39.000)

That's what made you a really fun person to watch.

Travis Stevens (1:16:42.000)

Cause you really went to war with these people.

Lex Fridman (1:16:44.120)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:16:45.000)

So you know what it's like to go a hundred percent in Judo.

Lex Fridman (1:16:47.560)

I do.

Travis Stevens (1:16:48.400)

Cause I know what it's like to train with somebody

Lex Fridman (1:16:52.280)

under the mentality of,

Travis Stevens (1:16:54.280)

I'm going to do everything I want to do.

Lex Fridman (1:16:56.480)

You're going to do nothing you want to do.

Lex Fridman (1:16:59.180)

And you're going to accept that.

Lex Fridman (1:17:01.720)

Do you ever train in Judo where you let people get stuff?

Travis Stevens (1:17:05.400)

Of course, all the time.

Lex Fridman (1:17:08.440)

Now, or like.

Travis Stevens (1:17:09.840)

Always.

Lex Fridman (1:17:10.860)

Even when you're sort of building up the four years,

Travis Stevens (1:17:12.880)

building up to the Olympics,

Lex Fridman (1:17:14.520)

like there's smaller guys that are throwing you in the gym

Lex Fridman (1:17:17.480)

and that kind of stuff.

Lex Fridman (1:17:18.360)

No, I never said that.

Travis Stevens (1:17:19.520)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (1:17:21.840)

That never came out of my mouth.

Travis Stevens (1:17:24.280)

I said, I let people do stuff.

Lex Fridman (1:17:25.720)

I never said smaller people throw me.

Travis Stevens (1:17:27.920)

Oh, you mean you let them get a grip,

Lex Fridman (1:17:29.500)

but then you'll position yourself on such a way

Travis Stevens (1:17:31.280)

that it's hopeless.

Lex Fridman (1:17:32.720)

It's like.

Travis Stevens (1:17:33.600)

The number one skillset that Judo is going to teach you

Lex Fridman (1:17:37.760)

is the ability to give people false hope.

Lex Fridman (1:17:43.980)

Right?

Lex Fridman (1:17:44.820)

Cause I can let.

Travis Stevens (1:17:45.640)

I'm really looking forward to the video

Lex Fridman (1:17:46.480)

we're going to shoot later today.

Travis Stevens (1:17:47.720)

Like I can let you take a grip.

Lex Fridman (1:17:50.640)

I can let you think that there's opportunity,

Lex Fridman (1:17:52.880)

but what you don't understand is

Lex Fridman (1:17:54.840)

by the position and angle that I'm in,

Travis Stevens (1:17:57.280)

it's actually false hope.

Lex Fridman (1:17:59.280)

Like, as long as you don't know that it is,

Travis Stevens (1:18:02.160)

then now I'm free to operate and do what I want.

Lex Fridman (1:18:04.880)

See, I competed in Judo against black belts

Travis Stevens (1:18:08.560)

where I would go in and it looks like

Lex Fridman (1:18:12.280)

I could should be able to throw them.

Lex Fridman (1:18:13.600)

And then you just hit a wall.

Lex Fridman (1:18:15.360)

And then I also saw you destroy those black belts.

Travis Stevens (1:18:18.720)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:18:19.560)

So there's levels to this.

Travis Stevens (1:18:20.400)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:18:21.240)

It's the cliche thing of there's black belts

Lex Fridman (1:18:23.380)

and there's black belts.

Lex Fridman (1:18:24.900)

You're unique in this.

Travis Stevens (1:18:26.160)

There may be a couple other Jidoka in America,

Lex Fridman (1:18:29.420)

but you're really like unique.

Travis Stevens (1:18:30.680)

I then get to see people that really

Lex Fridman (1:18:34.080)

I felt like were 10X better than me.

Travis Stevens (1:18:37.880)

It just feels like that sometimes.

Lex Fridman (1:18:39.360)

I've learned that madness and it said it'd be truly

Travis Stevens (1:18:41.720)

might only be just a little better,

Lex Fridman (1:18:44.000)

but I saw you destroy them.

Lex Fridman (1:18:46.720)

And it was like, holy shit.

Lex Fridman (1:18:49.260)

There's a thing in Judo, right?

Travis Stevens (1:18:51.360)

Where, you know, imagine like you as like just an adult,

Lex Fridman (1:18:56.560)

right?

Lex Fridman (1:18:59.440)

And I hope people can like conceptualize this

Lex Fridman (1:19:01.780)

when they hear this,

Lex Fridman (1:19:02.620)

but imagine like you're a full grown adult,

Lex Fridman (1:19:04.920)

even male, female, it doesn't matter,

Lex Fridman (1:19:07.180)

but there's a little kid in front of you,

Lex Fridman (1:19:08.440)

like call him five or six years old and he's acting out.

Travis Stevens (1:19:12.800)

Like, do you think you have the physical capability

Lex Fridman (1:19:15.720)

of with one hand grabbing that person or that kid

Lex Fridman (1:19:19.320)

and making sure that they freeze?

Lex Fridman (1:19:21.880)

Like they feel like they're nervous

Lex Fridman (1:19:23.480)

and like they can't do anything.

Lex Fridman (1:19:26.520)

When you fight a good Judo player, when they grab you,

Travis Stevens (1:19:30.020)

that's what it feels like as an adult.

Lex Fridman (1:19:32.200)

And even I've felt that from like certain players in Japan,

Travis Stevens (1:19:36.560)

like when they get a grip,

Lex Fridman (1:19:37.440)

I'm like, I've now lost the function of this one.

Travis Stevens (1:19:41.560)

That's a really good way to put it.

Lex Fridman (1:19:43.200)

I think I could potentially beat some of the people

Travis Stevens (1:19:46.280)

I've went against, but certain groups they took,

Lex Fridman (1:19:50.520)

it made me feel powerless.

Travis Stevens (1:19:53.880)

I was like, I didn't know this was possible.

Lex Fridman (1:19:56.160)

That kind of power was possible.

Lex Fridman (1:19:57.900)

And you don't even know where it originates from.

Lex Fridman (1:20:00.280)

Cause you're like, how does one person's hand do this

Lex Fridman (1:20:02.700)

where I can't use my whole arm?

Lex Fridman (1:20:04.920)

Or like, I can't pick up my right foot

Travis Stevens (1:20:06.880)

because he's holding onto my right sleeve.

Lex Fridman (1:20:09.320)

It was kind of on a basic animalistic sense,

Travis Stevens (1:20:13.160)

kind of terrifying.

Lex Fridman (1:20:15.120)

It's, I mean, you don't want to,

Travis Stevens (1:20:18.480)

part of this is like ego,

Lex Fridman (1:20:20.400)

but you realize that there's a food chain

Lex Fridman (1:20:22.940)

and you're not at the top of it.

Lex Fridman (1:20:26.480)

That's part of the humbling process,

Travis Stevens (1:20:28.120)

I think of martial arts.

Lex Fridman (1:20:29.160)

It's like, I think everybody,

Travis Stevens (1:20:33.160)

like a lot of people think they're much higher

Lex Fridman (1:20:36.360)

in the food chain than they are.

Travis Stevens (1:20:37.200)

Than they really are.

Lex Fridman (1:20:38.640)

And then when you realize,

Travis Stevens (1:20:39.960)

this is why it's a really healthy process for people

Lex Fridman (1:20:42.040)

that are not even competing in the Olympics

Travis Stevens (1:20:45.060)

to practice martial arts.

Lex Fridman (1:20:46.240)

Cause you realize, okay,

Travis Stevens (1:20:47.500)

that like putting yourself more accurately

Lex Fridman (1:20:49.960)

in the food chain is really good way

Travis Stevens (1:20:53.160)

to sort of place yourself in the rest of the world.

Lex Fridman (1:20:55.480)

It humbles you to the reality, the harshness of the world.

Travis Stevens (1:20:58.520)

Yep.

Lex Fridman (1:20:59.640)

It's kind of like when people look at like survival

Travis Stevens (1:21:01.720)

in the wilderness, it's like, oh, it's not that hard.

Lex Fridman (1:21:04.960)

No, you'd probably be dying in a couple of days.

Travis Stevens (1:21:07.520)

Same thing with like judo and martial arts.

Lex Fridman (1:21:09.840)

Like, yeah, it's really not that hard,

Lex Fridman (1:21:13.180)

but you don't know what to do yet.

Lex Fridman (1:21:15.420)

And so when you find out that first time

Travis Stevens (1:21:17.160)

that you don't know what to do,

Lex Fridman (1:21:18.920)

it's devastating to a lot of people,

Lex Fridman (1:21:21.120)

but those that like stick through it and like start to learn,

Lex Fridman (1:21:24.740)

it's a very powerful, like feeling that now,

Travis Stevens (1:21:27.880)

like you can take care of yourself.

Lex Fridman (1:21:31.120)

And I think I want to talk to you a few times before

Travis Stevens (1:21:34.780)

you talked about that.

Lex Fridman (1:21:35.620)

There's like, like the top three, the top five in the world.

Travis Stevens (1:21:38.900)

I don't know where you put them,

Lex Fridman (1:21:40.280)

but they're, they're another like level above.

Travis Stevens (1:21:43.440)

They're a whole nother tier, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:21:45.040)

And the fact that you're, I mean, it's,

Travis Stevens (1:21:46.880)

it's so exciting to me probably

Lex Fridman (1:21:50.440)

because I just felt all the levels here

Lex Fridman (1:21:54.120)

and I've seen you and others at that height destroy those.

Lex Fridman (1:21:59.840)

I've seen the exponential levels to this game.

Travis Stevens (1:22:03.820)

It's incredible that you're, didn't quit,

Lex Fridman (1:22:08.320)

didn't doubt yourself and just persevered

Travis Stevens (1:22:11.560)

through three Olympics to get to that highest,

Lex Fridman (1:22:15.000)

always fighting at that like very highest of levels,

Lex Fridman (1:22:18.120)

but just like, you know, from the top 10 to the top five,

Lex Fridman (1:22:21.880)

like really breaking in through that, I don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:22:27.040)

What would you say it took to get to that highest of levels?

Lex Fridman (1:22:30.880)

Like if you, when you look back to all the weight cuts,

Travis Stevens (1:22:33.080)

to just the insane amount of injuries, believe it or not,

Lex Fridman (1:22:36.960)

I didn't really think I was there until 2013.

Travis Stevens (1:22:42.960)

I thought I was recognized as one of the best

Lex Fridman (1:22:45.840)

because I was able to fight for Oppensburg,

Travis Stevens (1:22:47.960)

which was the professional Bundesliga team for Germany,

Lex Fridman (1:22:50.600)

which is one of the top clubs in all of Europe.

Travis Stevens (1:22:54.000)

When they asked me to, I felt like Europe had like accepted

Lex Fridman (1:22:58.000)

me as like, oh, I'm a top level judo player,

Lex Fridman (1:23:02.480)

but I don't necessarily think that when I signed on

Lex Fridman (1:23:05.460)

to compete for them, that the division or the world

Lex Fridman (1:23:08.800)

of judo saw me as a top level judo player, right?

Lex Fridman (1:23:11.960)

There's a mental shift that happens along that point.

Lex Fridman (1:23:16.960)

And for me, my mental shift really came into play

Lex Fridman (1:23:22.280)

in December of 2015 before Rio.

Travis Stevens (1:23:26.640)

That was like, when I lost in Japan,

Lex Fridman (1:23:30.440)

that's when I realized like the world respects my abilities

Lex Fridman (1:23:34.960)

and they compete against them.

Lex Fridman (1:23:37.720)

They don't compete against me as a person.

Travis Stevens (1:23:40.400)

They compete against the idea or the persona

Lex Fridman (1:23:49.400)

that I've been able to establish over the years

Travis Stevens (1:23:52.760)

of competing in the division.

Lex Fridman (1:23:54.200)

Wow, so you're the, they probably have a nickname for you.

Travis Stevens (1:23:57.760)

You're the system of ideas and thought that they study.

Lex Fridman (1:24:02.080)

But they're studying me as a conceptual whole,

Travis Stevens (1:24:06.540)

not me as the human.

Lex Fridman (1:24:07.860)

Is your style relatively unique in the 81 kilogram division?

Travis Stevens (1:24:14.620)

It was relatively unique for Kayla, I and Jimmy

Lex Fridman (1:24:18.500)

up until 2016.

Travis Stevens (1:24:20.760)

Now since 2016, you can see a lot of what we used to do

Lex Fridman (1:24:25.380)

throughout most of Europe and even Asia.

Travis Stevens (1:24:27.760)

Like you're starting to see some of those techniques

Lex Fridman (1:24:29.580)

that you didn't see before starting to get implemented.

Travis Stevens (1:24:32.660)

Because when I was gearing up for 2015,

Lex Fridman (1:24:38.940)

I had such a slew of injuries that entire calendar year

Travis Stevens (1:24:42.820)

that I never should have made it to Rio.

Lex Fridman (1:24:46.340)

I should have called it quits at the end of 2015

Travis Stevens (1:24:49.420)

because I suffered that major concussion in February.

Lex Fridman (1:24:54.060)

I stepped on a mat in May for the first time.

Travis Stevens (1:24:57.620)

I lost five straight tournaments.

Lex Fridman (1:24:59.960)

I left the national team, went to Japan, won Pan Am games,

Travis Stevens (1:25:05.500)

got a bacterial infection at the Worlds,

Lex Fridman (1:25:07.500)

almost had my leg cut off, tore my SI joint later

Travis Stevens (1:25:10.860)

on that year, and then took fifth in Japan.

Lex Fridman (1:25:14.240)

And when you look at like the calendar year as a whole,

Travis Stevens (1:25:18.300)

like the world should have treated me like I was washed up.

Lex Fridman (1:25:22.220)

Like this guy hasn't been training,

Travis Stevens (1:25:23.620)

he hasn't been doing anything, but I took fifth in Japan.

Lex Fridman (1:25:26.800)

Now, how does a guy that hasn't trained all year

Travis Stevens (1:25:30.300)

take fifth at one of the hardest tournaments in the world

Lex Fridman (1:25:32.580)

on two weeks of training?

Travis Stevens (1:25:35.540)

Because they were fighting the guy I used to be,

Lex Fridman (1:25:40.300)

not the guy I was at the tournament,

Travis Stevens (1:25:42.460)

which means they were competing under the idea of like,

Lex Fridman (1:25:45.920)

what is he really capable of?

Lex Fridman (1:25:48.260)

Not what have I brought to the table today?

Lex Fridman (1:25:53.060)

And that just gave you the confidence.

Lex Fridman (1:25:54.700)

And that told me that like, well, if I can take fifth

Lex Fridman (1:25:57.900)

and I'm this bad at judo right now,

Travis Stevens (1:26:00.580)

wait until I'm healthy and I'm back in shape,

Lex Fridman (1:26:03.140)

then they're not gonna know what hit them.

Travis Stevens (1:26:04.780)

One of the essential components of being the number one

Lex Fridman (1:26:07.180)

in the world or up in that place is that confidence,

Travis Stevens (1:26:10.980)

the self belief.

Lex Fridman (1:26:11.980)

And the rest of the world believing it.

Travis Stevens (1:26:14.940)

You can have all the confidence in the world,

Lex Fridman (1:26:16.540)

but if the rest of the room doesn't buy it, it's nothing.

Travis Stevens (1:26:20.100)

That's funny.

Lex Fridman (1:26:21.060)

It's like, there's certain people, right?

Travis Stevens (1:26:22.620)

Oh, Tyson, Mike Tyson.

Lex Fridman (1:26:24.980)

They all understand he could not train

Lex Fridman (1:26:27.780)

and they're still scared, right?

Lex Fridman (1:26:30.220)

Like he doesn't have to work out that hard anymore.

Travis Stevens (1:26:32.420)

There's several judo, you know this way better,

Lex Fridman (1:26:34.900)

but from a spectator perspective,

Travis Stevens (1:26:36.380)

like Ilias Iliadis is like that.

Lex Fridman (1:26:38.140)

He's one of them.

Travis Stevens (1:26:39.460)

It's like, he.

Lex Fridman (1:26:41.300)

He's portrayed over the years.

Lex Fridman (1:26:42.780)

Why is everyone so scared of that guy?

Lex Fridman (1:26:45.940)

It's interesting.

Travis Stevens (1:26:46.940)

Yep.

Lex Fridman (1:26:47.780)

People were scared of you too.

Travis Stevens (1:26:49.280)

People just gave a certain level of respect to my skillset

Lex Fridman (1:26:54.040)

and whether I had a bad weight cut

Travis Stevens (1:26:56.360)

or didn't have a bad weight cut

Lex Fridman (1:26:58.200)

or not trained for the last three months,

Travis Stevens (1:27:00.120)

which never happened, I'm just saying,

Lex Fridman (1:27:02.360)

they were gonna fight the persona.

Lex Fridman (1:27:06.120)

And it's an important distinction

Lex Fridman (1:27:07.480)

when you're looking at the top five

Travis Stevens (1:27:08.840)

because everybody coming up,

Lex Fridman (1:27:12.120)

they're training against the persona, not who you are.

Travis Stevens (1:27:16.880)

Even I did that at a younger age.

Lex Fridman (1:27:19.880)

That's why I would always go to people's hometowns

Travis Stevens (1:27:22.660)

because I don't care about the persona.

Lex Fridman (1:27:25.120)

I wanna know what you do day in and day out.

Travis Stevens (1:27:27.980)

When I couldn't beat a Russian,

Lex Fridman (1:27:29.060)

I told Jimmy, send me to Russia.

Travis Stevens (1:27:30.760)

I need to understand and see it with my own eyes

Lex Fridman (1:27:34.320)

what they do, outperform,

Lex Fridman (1:27:36.020)

so that I can believe that I can beat them.

Lex Fridman (1:27:39.880)

Can I ask you on this, a small tangent.

Travis Stevens (1:27:43.280)

Dagestan has produced some incredible wrestlers.

Lex Fridman (1:27:46.360)

I don't know what the story with judo is,

Travis Stevens (1:27:48.560)

where the source of greatness in Russia is for judo,

Lex Fridman (1:27:53.740)

but what do you make of Dagestan?

Travis Stevens (1:27:55.520)

Why, what is it in the culture of there or Russia broadly

Lex Fridman (1:28:00.120)

that produces greatness?

Travis Stevens (1:28:02.700)

Specifically in the combat sports.

Lex Fridman (1:28:05.340)

I don't know, yeah, specifically in the combat sports,

Travis Stevens (1:28:07.520)

sorry, but I don't know if you wanna draw a distinction

Lex Fridman (1:28:09.720)

between wrestling and judo.

Travis Stevens (1:28:10.920)

I'm almost curious,

Lex Fridman (1:28:11.880)

do you understand the differences there in the culture?

Travis Stevens (1:28:15.120)

It's still a combat sport to them.

Lex Fridman (1:28:17.120)

They're still in that same like realm

Travis Stevens (1:28:20.280)

of they're taking young kids and that's what they do.

Lex Fridman (1:28:26.280)

So Khabib speaks very highly of judo.

Travis Stevens (1:28:29.980)

It's funny, Khabib, Vladimir Putin.

Lex Fridman (1:28:33.520)

People don't get it,

Lex Fridman (1:28:34.340)

but like judo is like one of the premier sports

Lex Fridman (1:28:37.440)

in the world, but we just don't understand it.

Travis Stevens (1:28:39.920)

It's not just popularity, so definitely popularity,

Lex Fridman (1:28:42.440)

but also like this respect.

Lex Fridman (1:28:44.880)

And there's a certain thing,

Lex Fridman (1:28:48.160)

which is why I really value judo internationally.

Travis Stevens (1:28:50.440)

You don't get this in the United States,

Lex Fridman (1:28:51.760)

but internationally there's an understanding,

Travis Stevens (1:28:55.280)

like later in life,

Lex Fridman (1:28:56.880)

when you're a scientist meeting a businessman,

Travis Stevens (1:28:59.960)

when you both have done judo,

Lex Fridman (1:29:01.620)

there's this like nod of respect.

Travis Stevens (1:29:04.520)

It's so interesting.

Lex Fridman (1:29:06.320)

There's very few sports like that.

Travis Stevens (1:29:07.840)

Basketball doesn't have any,

Lex Fridman (1:29:09.320)

I don't know almost any sport like that.

Lex Fridman (1:29:11.680)

And it's fascinating.

Lex Fridman (1:29:12.640)

Wrestling has that in the US, but it's the US only.

Travis Stevens (1:29:16.560)

The rest of the world doesn't do that.

Lex Fridman (1:29:18.100)

There's a few, like you could see that in like Iran

Travis Stevens (1:29:21.020)

or something like that.

Lex Fridman (1:29:21.860)

They'll respect wrestling in that kind of way.

Travis Stevens (1:29:24.680)

Yeah, it's...

Lex Fridman (1:29:26.440)

But judo on like a global scale

Travis Stevens (1:29:28.160)

is probably that only one,

Lex Fridman (1:29:30.760)

due to its like physicality and the hardships

Travis Stevens (1:29:34.480)

that you have to go through to reach that upper level.

Lex Fridman (1:29:38.120)

So why do you think Dagestan,

Lex Fridman (1:29:39.520)

why do you think Khabib is as good as he is?

Lex Fridman (1:29:41.400)

Is this just the raw genetics of the human

Lex Fridman (1:29:44.880)

or is there something about the system?

Lex Fridman (1:29:46.840)

The system.

Travis Stevens (1:29:48.640)

It's all has to do with the system.

Lex Fridman (1:29:50.920)

So they grow up around fighting in all forms.

Travis Stevens (1:29:55.560)

Yep.

Lex Fridman (1:29:57.400)

They're also, I mean, their technique is exceptionally good.

Travis Stevens (1:30:00.460)

Because they grow up in it.

Lex Fridman (1:30:02.720)

They grow up in it.

Travis Stevens (1:30:03.560)

They don't understand anything else.

Lex Fridman (1:30:08.280)

So you don't have to,

Travis Stevens (1:30:09.120)

it's almost like you with the weight cutting.

Lex Fridman (1:30:11.160)

It's not like a big dramatic thing for them to fight.

Travis Stevens (1:30:13.880)

It's like, this is just part of life.

Lex Fridman (1:30:16.040)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:30:16.880)

And when you're, I don't wanna say bred into it,

Lex Fridman (1:30:20.280)

but when you've done it for,

Travis Stevens (1:30:24.300)

I wanna say like 90% of your life

Lex Fridman (1:30:26.640)

by the time like Khabib probably has,

Travis Stevens (1:30:29.320)

right from the time he could crawl,

Lex Fridman (1:30:30.720)

he's probably even grappling in some fashion thereof, right?

Travis Stevens (1:30:37.000)

When you, as grapplers,

Lex Fridman (1:30:38.920)

like you can look at a wrestler and having never seen

Travis Stevens (1:30:42.760)

this person before and go, you wrestled.

Lex Fridman (1:30:45.960)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:30:47.120)

Why is that?

Lex Fridman (1:30:48.280)

It's because he's probably wrestled since he was like six.

Lex Fridman (1:30:51.600)

So the way he carries himself,

Lex Fridman (1:30:53.920)

the way his body is built,

Lex Fridman (1:30:55.720)

the way he grew into it was framed around wrestling, right?

Lex Fridman (1:31:00.880)

So the people in that culture are framed

Travis Stevens (1:31:03.600)

around fighting and grappling.

Lex Fridman (1:31:06.200)

You're right.

Travis Stevens (1:31:07.040)

First of all, philosophically, psychologically,

Lex Fridman (1:31:10.320)

but also just like the way you move your body.

Travis Stevens (1:31:12.240)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:31:13.080)

That means like when you're young,

Travis Stevens (1:31:14.680)

the people you admire move their body

Lex Fridman (1:31:16.600)

in a certain kind of way.

Lex Fridman (1:31:17.960)

And then genetically, it just, as they keep doing that,

Lex Fridman (1:31:22.060)

they're just gonna get better and better every generation.

Travis Stevens (1:31:25.480)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:31:26.560)

It's just gonna keep improving

Travis Stevens (1:31:27.840)

because they just keep building into that system

Lex Fridman (1:31:30.000)

of turning them out.

Lex Fridman (1:31:31.400)

And part of it, there's like cultural stuff where,

Lex Fridman (1:31:34.360)

I mean, it's such an interesting approach to wrestling.

Travis Stevens (1:31:36.640)

I really wanna travel to Dagestan and just talk to them

Lex Fridman (1:31:39.440)

because I happen to be able to speak Russian.

Travis Stevens (1:31:42.020)

Because there's less value

Lex Fridman (1:31:45.460)

for this kind of materialistic success

Travis Stevens (1:31:49.520)

that I think sometimes can get in the way of greatness,

Lex Fridman (1:31:53.500)

it seems like.

Travis Stevens (1:31:54.580)

It makes coaching more difficult.

Lex Fridman (1:31:56.420)

It makes like following orders as an athlete more difficult.

Travis Stevens (1:31:59.800)

I don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:32:00.640)

We struggle with that in USA judo.

Travis Stevens (1:32:02.300)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:32:03.140)

Cause you want more money,

Lex Fridman (1:32:05.080)

but then more money, if not applied correctly,

Lex Fridman (1:32:08.100)

can corrupt the system.

Travis Stevens (1:32:09.760)

Somehow it can split people up.

Lex Fridman (1:32:11.160)

It's just, it's same thing with the prestige

Travis Stevens (1:32:13.200)

around certain medals over others

Lex Fridman (1:32:15.100)

because athletes start chasing fame instead of development.

Travis Stevens (1:32:22.040)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:32:23.500)

Yeah, that's, I mean, the Setia brothers

Travis Stevens (1:32:26.320)

are famous for this, like ignoring fame,

Lex Fridman (1:32:29.520)

ignoring all of this, like focus on the art itself.

Travis Stevens (1:32:31.960)

Not even, so it's not even the medals,

Lex Fridman (1:32:34.280)

exactly like you're saying,

Travis Stevens (1:32:35.320)

just the purity of like when you're in it

Lex Fridman (1:32:38.040)

and let everybody else figure out their stupid medals

Lex Fridman (1:32:40.280)

and money and all that.

Lex Fridman (1:32:41.160)

Cause it comes.

Travis Stevens (1:32:42.160)

It comes.

Lex Fridman (1:32:43.000)

Exactly.

Travis Stevens (1:32:43.820)

It's a result.

Lex Fridman (1:32:44.660)

Yeah, exactly.

Travis Stevens (1:32:45.500)

Like it's not that you don't appreciate it,

Lex Fridman (1:32:46.880)

but you know that it comes if you focus on the art.

Travis Stevens (1:32:50.320)

There's a distinction when you're talking

Lex Fridman (1:32:53.400)

about your athletic career or really any endeavor, right?

Travis Stevens (1:32:58.680)

The problem with goal setting is nobody teaches the athletes

Lex Fridman (1:33:03.340)

or the people how to transition

Lex Fridman (1:33:06.240)

from the goal to reality, right?

Lex Fridman (1:33:08.960)

So when you look at my career as a whole,

Travis Stevens (1:33:12.560)

like when I was getting ready for 2008,

Lex Fridman (1:33:15.160)

I actually forgot to train for it.

Travis Stevens (1:33:17.260)

I was so happy at such a young age

Lex Fridman (1:33:19.480)

that I became an Olympian that that in and of itself

Travis Stevens (1:33:22.600)

was a goal that I thought had to be admired,

Lex Fridman (1:33:25.660)

had to be celebrated that, you know,

Travis Stevens (1:33:28.040)

the games are right around the corner.

Lex Fridman (1:33:30.020)

I didn't really come down off that high.

Travis Stevens (1:33:32.640)

You're the local optimum of just winning the trials.

Lex Fridman (1:33:37.080)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (1:33:37.920)

That was.

Lex Fridman (1:33:38.760)

It's a big thing.

Travis Stevens (1:33:39.580)

It's a huge thing.

Lex Fridman (1:33:40.420)

But then you're just focusing on the accomplishment,

Travis Stevens (1:33:42.320)

not the.

Lex Fridman (1:33:43.160)

Correct.

Lex Fridman (1:33:43.980)

But at some point, right, when I went into London,

Lex Fridman (1:33:48.880)

I actually went into London going with,

Travis Stevens (1:33:51.540)

I'm gonna prove I'm the best in the world

Lex Fridman (1:33:53.280)

cause I believe I'm the best in the world.

Lex Fridman (1:33:55.440)

And I believe it from like the bottom of my soul

Lex Fridman (1:33:58.560)

that I'm winning this.

Lex Fridman (1:34:00.380)

And then you're almost like trying to tell the universe,

Lex Fridman (1:34:04.320)

like I'm accomplishing this thing because it's a goal.

Lex Fridman (1:34:07.640)

But when I went into Rio,

Lex Fridman (1:34:10.920)

I just accepted the fact that I was winning.

Travis Stevens (1:34:13.780)

It's not a goal.

Lex Fridman (1:34:14.620)

Like this is happening.

Travis Stevens (1:34:16.780)

You visualize it.

Lex Fridman (1:34:18.440)

But I felt it.

Travis Stevens (1:34:19.540)

You felt it.

Lex Fridman (1:34:20.440)

Right?

Travis Stevens (1:34:21.280)

Like this is no longer a goal anymore.

Lex Fridman (1:34:24.980)

Like I anticipated, like this is happening.

Travis Stevens (1:34:27.420)

I can see this coming down the path

Lex Fridman (1:34:29.980)

because I'm anticipating that the games is happening

Lex Fridman (1:34:33.740)

and I'm gonna win.

Lex Fridman (1:34:34.580)

It's not a goal.

Travis Stevens (1:34:35.860)

It's an anticipation.

Lex Fridman (1:34:36.820)

And there's a distinct distinction there

Travis Stevens (1:34:39.140)

between the two.

Lex Fridman (1:34:41.380)

Okay, so for people who are just watching the video of this,

Travis Stevens (1:34:44.660)

there should be an overlay of Young Travis.

Lex Fridman (1:34:50.140)

This is, you still had to make 81.

Lex Fridman (1:34:52.780)

Is this still a tough cut here?

Lex Fridman (1:34:54.920)

No, this one was relatively easy.

Travis Stevens (1:34:56.680)

This is going all the way back to 2008.

Lex Fridman (1:34:59.700)

So this is the summer before the games.

Travis Stevens (1:35:03.500)

This probably happened in June, I would say.

Lex Fridman (1:35:08.860)

So this is the Olympic trials.

Lex Fridman (1:35:11.740)

So in the United States,

Lex Fridman (1:35:13.500)

you have to, I mean, similar to like wrestling,

Travis Stevens (1:35:15.980)

you have to win the trials to qualify

Lex Fridman (1:35:18.300)

for that particular division

Travis Stevens (1:35:19.880)

to represent the United States.

Lex Fridman (1:35:21.700)

So this is, you said June before an August Olympics?

Travis Stevens (1:35:24.600)

Yep.

Lex Fridman (1:35:25.740)

So here, I just wanted to show this match

Travis Stevens (1:35:27.940)

because what was, there's another one.

Lex Fridman (1:35:31.180)

I think you do a pin,

Travis Stevens (1:35:32.300)

you do some nice ground work in the other one.

Lex Fridman (1:35:34.420)

But in this one.

Travis Stevens (1:35:37.800)

Fighting a teammate.

Lex Fridman (1:35:39.300)

Fighting a teammate.

Travis Stevens (1:35:40.260)

Former teammate.

Lex Fridman (1:35:41.100)

Oh, there's an old school double leg.

Travis Stevens (1:35:42.440)

I forgot about that.

Lex Fridman (1:35:43.640)

And it's weird to see.

Lex Fridman (1:35:45.940)

So there, the Travis's opponent,

Lex Fridman (1:35:49.780)

and Travis is setting up here

Travis Stevens (1:35:51.420)

that Sayonagi posting his left arm and getting it done.

Lex Fridman (1:35:59.020)

That's a big, that's a big throw.

Travis Stevens (1:36:01.380)

You don't have too many of those big throws on video.

Lex Fridman (1:36:06.060)

Cause like you often on video,

Travis Stevens (1:36:07.840)

you're going against the best people in the world.

Lex Fridman (1:36:09.700)

It's tough to get like that much air.

Lex Fridman (1:36:12.260)

And a lot of times the ones that we do see

Lex Fridman (1:36:15.040)

and the part that a lot of people don't experience

Travis Stevens (1:36:19.540)

is a lot of those times

Lex Fridman (1:36:21.780)

where I threw people with that throw,

Travis Stevens (1:36:23.780)

it was in training camps.

Lex Fridman (1:36:25.680)

So by the time I got to the competition with these guys,

Travis Stevens (1:36:29.020)

they were playing a hundred percent defense

Lex Fridman (1:36:32.000)

to never let me do that.

Travis Stevens (1:36:33.400)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:36:34.420)

So you do this here.

Lex Fridman (1:36:36.900)

Are you kind of pulling him down?

Lex Fridman (1:36:38.420)

No, he's, I'm trying to get him to come up.

Lex Fridman (1:36:41.580)

But are you pulling him down to get to fake him out?

Lex Fridman (1:36:43.580)

I'm not doing anything with my left hand.

Lex Fridman (1:36:46.960)

So here the opponent is.

Lex Fridman (1:36:48.820)

So what I'm doing right now is his head is like in my chest.

Travis Stevens (1:36:52.600)

I'm pressing him to get his head to lift with my chest.

Lex Fridman (1:36:58.120)

So I'm pressing his hand down so I can use my chest

Travis Stevens (1:37:00.980)

to like pinch my scaps and roll his head up

Lex Fridman (1:37:04.180)

so that he wants to pick it up.

Lex Fridman (1:37:06.540)

And then he, I mean, doesn't he know what's coming here?

Lex Fridman (1:37:10.620)

Oh no, he might not.

Travis Stevens (1:37:12.660)

Oh no, he knew, he was a former teammate.

Lex Fridman (1:37:14.380)

He knew exactly what I was trying to do.

Lex Fridman (1:37:16.540)

And that was a really big step with your right foot.

Lex Fridman (1:37:20.220)

It covers about four feet in distance.

Lex Fridman (1:37:26.380)

And your left catches up in like perfect position.

Lex Fridman (1:37:32.620)

Yeah, you back it up a little bit.

Travis Stevens (1:37:36.100)

Keep going, keep going.

Lex Fridman (1:37:39.020)

Right there, this is like an important distinction

Travis Stevens (1:37:41.980)

between mine and everybody else's

Lex Fridman (1:37:44.240)

is because I split his hip,

Travis Stevens (1:37:48.420)

I actually, once I'm able to split,

Lex Fridman (1:37:50.940)

I no longer need his center of gravity below mine.

Travis Stevens (1:37:55.620)

Right, and when you say split,

Lex Fridman (1:37:56.860)

you mean you put your foot in between.

Travis Stevens (1:37:59.540)

I do that split, that four foot split.

Lex Fridman (1:38:02.180)

And then when I get my feet back together,

Travis Stevens (1:38:04.700)

it doesn't matter that I'm under his center of gravity

Lex Fridman (1:38:06.980)

or not.

Travis Stevens (1:38:09.060)

That's why my chest is right around his sternum height

Lex Fridman (1:38:13.980)

for me.

Travis Stevens (1:38:15.180)

Yeah, so there, I mean, how does he get,

Lex Fridman (1:38:17.900)

for people just listening to this,

Travis Stevens (1:38:19.140)

Travis Steps does a big, huge step, gets.

Lex Fridman (1:38:23.900)

Like my hip is probably right around his nipple

Travis Stevens (1:38:26.860)

because he's sprawled back so much.

Lex Fridman (1:38:28.900)

Yeah, that's right.

Lex Fridman (1:38:30.400)

So like, so you're, how does the physics of this work?

Lex Fridman (1:38:33.220)

You're violating the principle of your center of mass

Travis Stevens (1:38:36.320)

being under, oh, I guess somehow it is.

Lex Fridman (1:38:38.900)

I don't know, but he has nowhere to go.

Travis Stevens (1:38:40.820)

He's screwed.

Lex Fridman (1:38:41.940)

Yes, that's the kicker is the way mine works is

Travis Stevens (1:38:47.580)

in order for him to play an effective defense,

Lex Fridman (1:38:50.820)

he needs to have his feet firmly planted on the ground

Travis Stevens (1:38:53.960)

with friction.

Lex Fridman (1:38:55.420)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (1:38:56.260)

Otherwise he can't press into me to stop it.

Lex Fridman (1:38:59.040)

So when I get him to sprawl back, when I split his legs,

Travis Stevens (1:39:02.340)

he effectively loses that contact with the floor.

Lex Fridman (1:39:05.620)

Even though his feet are on the floor,

Travis Stevens (1:39:07.700)

they're not in a position where he can drive from them.

Lex Fridman (1:39:10.200)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:39:11.040)

So therefore when I flip, he flips.

Lex Fridman (1:39:12.860)

So there's a natural like flailing here.

Lex Fridman (1:39:17.700)

So he's not falling forward.

Lex Fridman (1:39:20.260)

You're falling forward.

Travis Stevens (1:39:21.700)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:39:22.520)

He's just attached to you.

Lex Fridman (1:39:23.360)

So like you can keep him up there

Lex Fridman (1:39:25.080)

and then like legs would be just flailing.

Travis Stevens (1:39:27.100)

Yep, one of my golden rules when I'm training

Lex Fridman (1:39:30.760)

and I get really tired, one of the like mantras

Travis Stevens (1:39:33.780)

I would always tell myself is I'm gonna put my back

Lex Fridman (1:39:36.640)

on your chest and then I'm gonna put my back on the floor.

Travis Stevens (1:39:39.580)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:39:40.420)

It's gonna be underneath me.

Travis Stevens (1:39:41.500)

That's a good principle to.

Lex Fridman (1:39:42.940)

It's very simple.

Lex Fridman (1:39:43.940)

And it, regardless of like all the chaos

Lex Fridman (1:39:46.500)

and how quickly things are happening,

Travis Stevens (1:39:48.380)

it's something I can just dumb everything down to

Lex Fridman (1:39:50.460)

and focus on.

Travis Stevens (1:39:51.820)

Regardless of the gripping situation, the footwork,

Lex Fridman (1:39:54.240)

all of that, get my back to your chest

Lex Fridman (1:39:56.460)

and then put my back on the floor.

Lex Fridman (1:39:58.180)

So this step of getting your back to their chest,

Travis Stevens (1:40:02.400)

like for people who are sort of more,

Lex Fridman (1:40:04.860)

like for example, for people like me,

Travis Stevens (1:40:07.180)

who are just like amateur Judo people,

Lex Fridman (1:40:09.580)

like there's all kinds of ways to prevent this turn

Travis Stevens (1:40:12.900)

from happening, the gripping and just everything.

Lex Fridman (1:40:17.420)

How difficult is it at the highest level

Lex Fridman (1:40:19.420)

to get into this position?

Lex Fridman (1:40:21.780)

I mean, you make it look effortless often,

Lex Fridman (1:40:23.960)

but like to get to the position where you're

Lex Fridman (1:40:25.780)

from facing them to your back is to them.

Lex Fridman (1:40:29.640)

Is that like strategy?

Lex Fridman (1:40:30.940)

Is that timing?

Lex Fridman (1:40:32.060)

Is that?

Lex Fridman (1:40:32.900)

Timing.

Travis Stevens (1:40:34.180)

It's timing.

Lex Fridman (1:40:35.000)

It's like anything, like if I wanted to punch you

Travis Stevens (1:40:38.260)

in the face, like how hard is it to really do that

Lex Fridman (1:40:41.100)

if you know you can just play defense and block it?

Travis Stevens (1:40:44.220)

The trick is to get them to play defense

Lex Fridman (1:40:46.260)

to something that never happened.

Lex Fridman (1:40:50.780)

And then you go through like another way.

Lex Fridman (1:40:52.520)

And then you just go through what would technically

Travis Stevens (1:40:54.780)

be your first plan if you planned on them playing defense.

Lex Fridman (1:40:58.220)

So I set the stage from the very beginning for this to work.

Lex Fridman (1:41:03.760)

So then this, you're celebrating here,

Lex Fridman (1:41:07.300)

it's a huge sort of, once a big accomplishments,

Travis Stevens (1:41:11.660)

big relief to qualify for the Olympics.

Lex Fridman (1:41:14.980)

And then you go into the Olympics

Lex Fridman (1:41:16.740)

and this is where I first saw Judo.

Lex Fridman (1:41:19.440)

And I kind of thought of them as the same

Travis Stevens (1:41:21.940)

as Judo and Jiu Jitsu.

Lex Fridman (1:41:24.660)

And I was really impressed by your performance

Travis Stevens (1:41:26.440)

in that Olympics.

Lex Fridman (1:41:28.420)

The footage nowhere to be found these days,

Lex Fridman (1:41:30.580)

but at that time I think you could still,

Lex Fridman (1:41:34.300)

you could watch it live on NBC Olympics

Travis Stevens (1:41:36.940)

or somewhere like that.

Lex Fridman (1:41:38.860)

And I remember watching several of your matches.

Travis Stevens (1:41:41.200)

One of them was the match against Ole Bischoff, the German.

Lex Fridman (1:41:45.180)

And I remember being, it'd be nice

Travis Stevens (1:41:47.100)

if you can talk to that match because I don't remember it.

Lex Fridman (1:41:49.400)

All I remember is being frustrated.

Travis Stevens (1:41:53.240)

Yep.

Lex Fridman (1:41:54.520)

By him not letting you play Judo.

Travis Stevens (1:41:58.540)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:41:59.420)

So obviously you faced him again four years later

Lex Fridman (1:42:03.460)

and there's a lot of frustration there as well.

Lex Fridman (1:42:05.500)

But I remember being extra frustrated in 2008.

Lex Fridman (1:42:09.180)

What was that match like?

Lex Fridman (1:42:10.300)

So he might've been number one in the world at the time

Lex Fridman (1:42:12.900)

or up there?

Lex Fridman (1:42:13.740)

He was up there for sure, especially going into 2008.

Travis Stevens (1:42:18.420)

He was really high up there.

Lex Fridman (1:42:19.780)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:42:20.620)

And did he win gold at that Olympics?

Lex Fridman (1:42:24.940)

Yes.

Travis Stevens (1:42:25.780)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:42:26.600)

Because he silvered in London.

Travis Stevens (1:42:27.440)

It was the same Olympic final both in 2008 and London.

Lex Fridman (1:42:31.420)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (1:42:32.340)

Okay, so you're facing him there.

Lex Fridman (1:42:35.660)

Were you intimidated?

Lex Fridman (1:42:36.720)

What was the strategy?

Lex Fridman (1:42:37.560)

Can you talk to that match?

Travis Stevens (1:42:39.640)

Because it kind of sets the stage for the rematch in 2012.

Lex Fridman (1:42:43.860)

Yeah, he was somebody that I had trained with in the past.

Lex Fridman (1:42:48.060)

And for some reason, when it comes to him and I,

Lex Fridman (1:42:51.940)

when we train together,

Travis Stevens (1:42:55.680)

it's more of a physical altercation

Lex Fridman (1:42:57.800)

than a Judo training session.

Travis Stevens (1:42:59.440)

It's just the coaches have had to break us up a few times.

Lex Fridman (1:43:04.440)

Or you guys get almost angry too?

Travis Stevens (1:43:06.920)

A little bit.

Lex Fridman (1:43:07.740)

It always goes farther than it should.

Travis Stevens (1:43:11.320)

We're friends.

Lex Fridman (1:43:12.160)

We say hello to each other.

Lex Fridman (1:43:13.560)

But for some reason, when we train together,

Lex Fridman (1:43:15.480)

there's something about him and me that just oil and water.

Travis Stevens (1:43:19.360)

I don't know what it is.

Lex Fridman (1:43:20.440)

Could it be also the gripping?

Travis Stevens (1:43:21.640)

Because he's a great gripping strategist.

Lex Fridman (1:43:24.160)

Does he frustrate you with certain kinds of grips

Lex Fridman (1:43:26.320)

and then you get pissed off and then you frustrate him?

Lex Fridman (1:43:28.940)

And then he gets pissed off

Lex Fridman (1:43:30.080)

and then before you know it, somebody's kicked somebody

Lex Fridman (1:43:32.240)

or punched somebody in the mouth or done something.

Travis Stevens (1:43:34.760)

Yeah, so one of the only evidences we have online

Lex Fridman (1:43:38.120)

of you fighting him is your foot in his groin area

Travis Stevens (1:43:44.480)

is the only thing we have from that Olympics.

Lex Fridman (1:43:46.600)

From 2008.

Travis Stevens (1:43:47.720)

From 2008, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:43:48.920)

And to answer everybody's question, yes, it was deliberate.

Travis Stevens (1:43:52.680)

Now you can say this.

Lex Fridman (1:43:53.940)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:43:54.780)

But yeah, I remember there being a lot of frustration.

Lex Fridman (1:43:57.560)

You're actually going for a lot of stuff

Travis Stevens (1:43:59.920)

like sacrifice throws.

Lex Fridman (1:44:00.800)

I mean, maybe you're not going

Travis Stevens (1:44:01.920)

for the highest scoring epons,

Lex Fridman (1:44:03.440)

but you're just trying to shake things up,

Travis Stevens (1:44:05.280)

if I remember correctly.

Lex Fridman (1:44:06.460)

Yeah, because when he, I was so young then that,

Lex Fridman (1:44:09.880)

and he was in his prime really at that time, right?

Lex Fridman (1:44:13.120)

He must've been 24, 25, 26,

Travis Stevens (1:44:18.560)

world medalist, European champion at the time.

Lex Fridman (1:44:22.280)

And when he would grab me,

Travis Stevens (1:44:24.380)

I had that sense of feeling stuck.

Lex Fridman (1:44:27.460)

Like I was strong enough if I used all my strength

Travis Stevens (1:44:30.280)

to not let him do anything,

Lex Fridman (1:44:32.200)

but then you can't be offensive

Travis Stevens (1:44:33.600)

when you're using all your strength

Lex Fridman (1:44:34.840)

to hold onto the situation.

Lex Fridman (1:44:38.000)

So I was getting really aggravated

Lex Fridman (1:44:39.880)

because I couldn't generate any offense

Travis Stevens (1:44:43.320)

with every time I felt like I gained an advantage

Lex Fridman (1:44:45.640)

in the gripping scenario,

Travis Stevens (1:44:47.200)

he would take some obscure grip somewhere that was like,

Lex Fridman (1:44:50.940)

well, now I've got to go address this thing,

Travis Stevens (1:44:52.640)

give up what I gained and I have to go back.

Lex Fridman (1:44:54.820)

And if I were to think about watching the match now,

Travis Stevens (1:44:59.520)

it probably looked like a lot of flailing

Lex Fridman (1:45:01.720)

because we're just trying to generate enough

Travis Stevens (1:45:04.440)

to not get a penalty,

Lex Fridman (1:45:05.960)

but also not enough to where he could counter it.

Travis Stevens (1:45:10.080)

Did you think you could beat him

Lex Fridman (1:45:11.840)

like when you were walking into the match?

Travis Stevens (1:45:14.200)

Until I gripped him for the first time,

Lex Fridman (1:45:16.000)

like, cause I had trained with him before,

Travis Stevens (1:45:19.120)

he felt stronger and more in shape

Lex Fridman (1:45:21.940)

than I've ever felt him that day.

Travis Stevens (1:45:24.640)

At that Olympics, which begs a whole nother question.

Lex Fridman (1:45:30.360)

But I remember when he grabbed me for that first time,

Travis Stevens (1:45:37.840)

I went, this is different.

Lex Fridman (1:45:40.720)

And there was a sense of panic at the time

Lex Fridman (1:45:42.760)

cause I was like, holy crap, where did this come from?

Lex Fridman (1:45:45.960)

This is not the guy that I've trained with that I expected.

Travis Stevens (1:45:51.120)

Cause it was a definite like level change

Lex Fridman (1:45:53.880)

in like his ability, strength, speed, and stamina.

Lex Fridman (1:45:57.680)

Like looking back at that, can you explain that?

Lex Fridman (1:46:00.360)

Is it just you being more, less confident

Lex Fridman (1:46:04.280)

because it was the Olympics?

Lex Fridman (1:46:05.480)

It was, is there some kind of routine that he followed

Travis Stevens (1:46:08.560)

to like really level up in intensity

Lex Fridman (1:46:10.840)

for this particular event?

Travis Stevens (1:46:12.200)

I've been told that he only gets to like his prime

Lex Fridman (1:46:17.160)

for like really big events.

Travis Stevens (1:46:20.320)

Like he doesn't train like year round like I would train,

Lex Fridman (1:46:23.920)

but when it comes to like the games,

Travis Stevens (1:46:25.440)

he doesn't do social media, he doesn't work,

Lex Fridman (1:46:29.040)

he lives, breathes, eats his training for the games,

Travis Stevens (1:46:33.400)

which could institute that level.

Lex Fridman (1:46:36.500)

What about you?

Travis Stevens (1:46:37.680)

Is there a, like Dan Gable famously said,

Lex Fridman (1:46:40.480)

like the one loss he had in college,

Travis Stevens (1:46:42.480)

he was doing a lot of media and stuff.

Lex Fridman (1:46:44.120)

Back then there was no social media.

Travis Stevens (1:46:46.320)

That was a huge mistake for him.

Lex Fridman (1:46:48.560)

Do you do social media, do you do like?

Lex Fridman (1:46:51.160)

At that, at this point?

Lex Fridman (1:46:52.480)

Well, at that time it was like AOL.

Lex Fridman (1:46:53.720)

I don't know, what's 2008?

Lex Fridman (1:46:55.000)

I didn't even have a Facebook page, a MySpace,

Travis Stevens (1:46:58.240)

nothing at this point.

Lex Fridman (1:46:59.600)

I got my first Facebook page from the USOC in 2012.

Travis Stevens (1:47:04.240)

When I went through the media thing,

Lex Fridman (1:47:05.400)

the lady was like, you have to have it.

Travis Stevens (1:47:07.680)

I go, I don't want it.

Lex Fridman (1:47:08.960)

I don't like people.

Travis Stevens (1:47:09.960)

I want to deal with the people.

Lex Fridman (1:47:11.960)

What am I supposed to do?

Travis Stevens (1:47:13.200)

You know, like the social part of the social media.

Lex Fridman (1:47:15.280)

No.

Travis Stevens (1:47:16.120)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (1:47:17.920)

I have to bring this up because,

Lex Fridman (1:47:20.320)

and then you went on to face Tiago Camilo.

Lex Fridman (1:47:22.800)

You lost that match, but he went on to win bronze.

Travis Stevens (1:47:24.920)

That's also an interesting one, but we can skip ahead.

Lex Fridman (1:47:27.480)

I just remember being really impressed

Travis Stevens (1:47:29.000)

both by your groundwork.

Lex Fridman (1:47:31.560)

That was a match I should have won.

Travis Stevens (1:47:33.280)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:47:34.120)

I should have won that.

Travis Stevens (1:47:34.960)

I was, if you don't know judo,

Lex Fridman (1:47:38.480)

you would visually watch that and be like, I'm winning.

Lex Fridman (1:47:40.880)

But he was technically winning on the scoreboard.

Lex Fridman (1:47:43.240)

So it is what it is.

Lex Fridman (1:47:44.760)

But the point that he got that solidified his win,

Lex Fridman (1:47:49.760)

yes, it was a point back in those days.

Lex Fridman (1:47:51.800)

So I can't say anything, but like my shoulder

Lex Fridman (1:47:55.240)

nicked the ground.

Lex Fridman (1:47:56.840)

So it's like, I don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:47:58.400)

Yeah. A lot of the stories of your Olympic career

Travis Stevens (1:48:01.560)

is like from a fan perspective,

Lex Fridman (1:48:04.680)

it seems like you should have won

Travis Stevens (1:48:06.720)

or you very close to could have won.

Lex Fridman (1:48:09.080)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:48:09.920)

And there was a lot of frustration in you

Lex Fridman (1:48:11.280)

and your game being like shut down in certain ways.

Lex Fridman (1:48:14.120)

But like the thing that immediately grabbed me in 2008

Lex Fridman (1:48:19.160)

was how much, something about the way you approached judo,

Lex Fridman (1:48:22.960)

how much you wanted to win.

Lex Fridman (1:48:24.880)

Cause I was young then.

Travis Stevens (1:48:26.440)

I was, when I was at this time of my career,

Lex Fridman (1:48:31.000)

I was out to like win.

Travis Stevens (1:48:34.040)

Like there was no like, I'm going to grab you,

Lex Fridman (1:48:36.320)

I'm going to throw you.

Lex Fridman (1:48:37.160)

And if not, you're going to go through a battle.

Lex Fridman (1:48:40.240)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (1:48:41.080)

You're going to make sure you earned it.

Lex Fridman (1:48:42.640)

It so happened that you competing in 2008,

Travis Stevens (1:48:47.160)

I was, I became a fan of yours at that moment.

Lex Fridman (1:48:51.240)

And since then, I kind of knew about judo.

Travis Stevens (1:48:55.040)

My university had a judo club

Lex Fridman (1:48:57.640)

and I kind of knew about jujitsu from mixed martial arts.

Lex Fridman (1:49:01.800)

And obviously I wrestled for many years before

Lex Fridman (1:49:04.280)

and I love wrestling,

Lex Fridman (1:49:06.000)

but there's something about you competing that made me,

Lex Fridman (1:49:09.960)

well, there's no other way to say it,

Lex Fridman (1:49:11.080)

but it like changed the direction of my life.

Lex Fridman (1:49:12.680)

Cause it forced me to say, you know what?

Travis Stevens (1:49:15.360)

I'm going to start judo and jujitsu.

Lex Fridman (1:49:18.040)

And first of all, for that, I'm really grateful,

Lex Fridman (1:49:20.800)

but it's fascinating to think,

Lex Fridman (1:49:22.120)

because this kid who's 22 years old,

Travis Stevens (1:49:24.200)

I'm sure I'm not the only one that you've influenced,

Lex Fridman (1:49:27.680)

like you've changed the direction of my life.

Lex Fridman (1:49:30.080)

And there could be huge number of others like that.

Lex Fridman (1:49:33.600)

I mean, that's the power of you as an individual

Travis Stevens (1:49:36.520)

at the, on the Olympic stage.

Lex Fridman (1:49:38.760)

You ever think about the pressure of that?

Travis Stevens (1:49:40.200)

Did you, did you think as a 22 year old,

Lex Fridman (1:49:42.640)

there's a bunch of people,

Travis Stevens (1:49:44.480)

like I know I'm not the only one who changed.

Lex Fridman (1:49:46.680)

I just happened to have like a microphone recently.

Lex Fridman (1:49:50.440)

You know what I mean?

Lex Fridman (1:49:51.280)

Like, is that, it's fascinating to think about, right?

Travis Stevens (1:49:54.520)

Like you, perhaps you didn't think about this.

Lex Fridman (1:49:57.280)

It's just, it's just a judo match,

Lex Fridman (1:49:59.400)

but you like, you influenced hundreds of thousands of people

Lex Fridman (1:50:02.600)

if not millions.

Lex Fridman (1:50:03.440)

Is that interesting?

Lex Fridman (1:50:04.800)

It's, it's not something that really hit me

Travis Stevens (1:50:09.640)

until 2012 when I lost,

Lex Fridman (1:50:17.040)

because that's when like,

Travis Stevens (1:50:20.600)

I would say like the world felt bad for me at that point.

Lex Fridman (1:50:25.520)

And that's when you knew that like people were watching

Lex Fridman (1:50:31.000)

and people were inspired by the loss

Lex Fridman (1:50:34.080)

because of how much went into that match.

Travis Stevens (1:50:36.240)

Because, you know, the 99% of us who watched it

Lex Fridman (1:50:41.080)

thought I won, except for the 1% of the people

Travis Stevens (1:50:44.520)

who were considered judges at that day in the event.

Lex Fridman (1:50:48.280)

So.

Lex Fridman (1:50:49.200)

But I mean, that's the, the win or lose,

Lex Fridman (1:50:52.240)

that, that was a really inspiring match.

Lex Fridman (1:50:54.200)

And that's when it, that's when it dinged that like,

Lex Fridman (1:50:58.560)

because I don't, I don't watch something

Lex Fridman (1:51:00.680)

and really get inspired by like the person and the act.

Lex Fridman (1:51:05.160)

It's like a, it's an accumulative thing.

Lex Fridman (1:51:08.440)

But for a lot of people, like when they watch

Lex Fridman (1:51:12.080)

how much goes into it,

Lex Fridman (1:51:13.840)

and then when I broke down on the match,

Lex Fridman (1:51:16.040)

like the amount of suffering that happens

Travis Stevens (1:51:18.800)

when you lose a match like that.

Lex Fridman (1:51:20.320)

And then, you know, really coming back and winning in Rio,

Travis Stevens (1:51:26.080)

there's a trend of people who were inspired

Lex Fridman (1:51:29.200)

that knew about London.

Lex Fridman (1:51:30.920)

And then when they found out I won in Rio,

Lex Fridman (1:51:33.520)

that's when like people like in droves felt like

Travis Stevens (1:51:36.920)

they could overcome their own personal obstacles

Lex Fridman (1:51:39.440)

to still achieve something

Travis Stevens (1:51:41.440)

because they've witnessed somebody who's fallen

Lex Fridman (1:51:44.160)

and gotten back up.

Travis Stevens (1:51:46.440)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:51:47.280)

But it's not something that you think about like on the day.

Travis Stevens (1:51:52.520)

It's when you look back and you go, oh, cause and effect.

Lex Fridman (1:51:55.920)

I wonder if you can comment on that.

Travis Stevens (1:51:57.680)

I'm trying to realize and live up to the fact

Lex Fridman (1:52:01.760)

that there's like young people that come up to me

Lex Fridman (1:52:05.680)

and I'm starting to realize like certain words I say

Lex Fridman (1:52:09.240)

will have a long lasting impact on them.

Travis Stevens (1:52:11.400)

Yep.

Lex Fridman (1:52:12.240)

Cause you say it as like, you don't even,

Travis Stevens (1:52:14.560)

it doesn't just, the whim.

Lex Fridman (1:52:16.560)

Some of them might come back 30 years later

Lex Fridman (1:52:19.320)

and a word I said was the reason they quit a thing

Lex Fridman (1:52:22.800)

and started the new thing that led them

Travis Stevens (1:52:24.640)

to become their true self, like to find success,

Lex Fridman (1:52:27.880)

all that kind of stuff like.

Travis Stevens (1:52:29.200)

On the flip side though, some people based on the actions

Lex Fridman (1:52:32.600)

that we do today, even with this cast

Travis Stevens (1:52:35.720)

will alter the course of their lives forever.

Lex Fridman (1:52:40.120)

I had a guy one time, was it after London?

Travis Stevens (1:52:44.840)

It must've been after London.

Lex Fridman (1:52:46.920)

He actually found me on Instagram,

Travis Stevens (1:52:50.160)

wrote me what seemed to be like a dissertation on Instagram

Lex Fridman (1:52:53.920)

about how much I disrespected him

Travis Stevens (1:52:58.800)

14 years earlier because I didn't step on a podium

Lex Fridman (1:53:03.320)

to take a picture after winning a tournament

Travis Stevens (1:53:05.280)

where he bronzed.

Lex Fridman (1:53:06.920)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:53:07.760)

And I'm thinking to myself, like at the time,

Lex Fridman (1:53:11.640)

like having dinner with my family

Travis Stevens (1:53:14.160)

because I had to leave the next morning

Lex Fridman (1:53:15.760)

was more important to me as a person,

Travis Stevens (1:53:18.600)

not thinking about who you potentially will become

Lex Fridman (1:53:23.600)

and the actions of whatever you do today,

Travis Stevens (1:53:29.560)

if you do become quote unquote famous

Lex Fridman (1:53:32.160)

or somebody in a spotlight,

Travis Stevens (1:53:34.280)

that that could come back to bite you.

Lex Fridman (1:53:36.520)

To me, I don't know about you,

Travis Stevens (1:53:37.600)

that's super motivating,

Lex Fridman (1:53:40.520)

like not to be a lesser version of myself ever.

Travis Stevens (1:53:46.480)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:53:47.320)

Just be on top of your game, whatever that game is,

Travis Stevens (1:53:49.280)

be on top of your game when you interacting with people

Lex Fridman (1:53:51.360)

and when you're just in your own private life.

Travis Stevens (1:53:53.920)

I'm trying to make sure

Lex Fridman (1:53:54.760)

that I'm the exactly same person privately

Travis Stevens (1:53:56.560)

as I am publicly and like making sure I'm on point.

Lex Fridman (1:54:00.160)

I see like just hanging out with Joe Rogan a lot.

Travis Stevens (1:54:03.560)

I see how he's, first of all, the exact same person.

Lex Fridman (1:54:06.720)

And second, he like walks around

Lex Fridman (1:54:10.080)

and there's like a huge number of fans

Lex Fridman (1:54:11.720)

and you'll just take pictures and like, it's very cool.

Lex Fridman (1:54:14.840)

And it's very cognizant of like certain words he says,

Lex Fridman (1:54:17.440)

especially young people, like they're going to take that.

Lex Fridman (1:54:20.200)

And that's going to be a memory for them

Lex Fridman (1:54:21.920)

for a couple of years that might be influential

Travis Stevens (1:54:24.240)

for the rest of their life.

Lex Fridman (1:54:25.120)

So I don't know, that's a cool responsibility,

Travis Stevens (1:54:30.000)

not to fuck it up.

Lex Fridman (1:54:31.640)

But anyway, I bring all that up to just say, thank you.

Lex Fridman (1:54:38.360)

So even if you like were frustrated

Lex Fridman (1:54:40.200)

that you didn't win a medal,

Travis Stevens (1:54:41.560)

at least you influenced one silly Russian kid

Lex Fridman (1:54:46.720)

to get into the martial arts.

Lex Fridman (1:54:48.160)

And what happens when you get into martial arts,

Lex Fridman (1:54:50.080)

it alters the direction of your life.

Travis Stevens (1:54:52.000)

Mine for the better.

Lex Fridman (1:54:54.640)

Okay, so let's go to London 2012 Olympics.

Travis Stevens (1:55:00.240)

One of the most dramatic judo battles of all time rematch.

Lex Fridman (1:55:08.320)

So you've reached the semifinals once again

Travis Stevens (1:55:10.600)

to face the German, Ole Bischoff.

Lex Fridman (1:55:14.360)

Do you mind if we step through that match a little bit?

Travis Stevens (1:55:16.800)

Yeah, by all means.

Lex Fridman (1:55:20.680)

I've only ever watched the entire thing one time

Travis Stevens (1:55:23.160)

just because, fucking.

Lex Fridman (1:55:29.160)

So for context, for the listener,

Travis Stevens (1:55:33.920)

Travis, first of all, you don't like losing.

Lex Fridman (1:55:37.160)

I think that's fair to say.

Travis Stevens (1:55:38.640)

You know, the hard part with this match

Lex Fridman (1:55:41.680)

is because I went into this Olympics thinking,

Travis Stevens (1:55:45.360)

I'm gonna fucking win the Olympics.

Lex Fridman (1:55:47.240)

I'm the best in the world.

Travis Stevens (1:55:50.320)

I never in my right mind thought,

Lex Fridman (1:55:55.040)

oh, I'm gonna win a medal.

Travis Stevens (1:55:56.880)

Like that never crossed my mind.

Lex Fridman (1:56:01.200)

So it's like, I would have rather him just fucking beat me.

Travis Stevens (1:56:08.640)

Because then I lost.

Lex Fridman (1:56:11.080)

So here the referees, as many people thought,

Travis Stevens (1:56:15.480)

robbed you of a victory,

Lex Fridman (1:56:16.920)

but it was also a really close battle.

Travis Stevens (1:56:18.600)

Again, with many of the elements of frustration as 2008

Lex Fridman (1:56:22.880)

in terms of strategically and gripping wise.

Lex Fridman (1:56:25.360)

And it was just a fascinating battle that went to overtime.

Lex Fridman (1:56:28.720)

So can you set the context?

Lex Fridman (1:56:30.760)

So what did the bracket look like?

Lex Fridman (1:56:33.400)

Who were the players here?

Lex Fridman (1:56:35.960)

Who did you beat leading up to this match?

Lex Fridman (1:56:38.720)

As you walk onto the mat, what happened the hours before?

Travis Stevens (1:56:43.640)

As you're standing there.

Lex Fridman (1:56:44.960)

How bad is it when two people are standing like this?

Lex Fridman (1:56:48.560)

And yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:56:50.160)

That fucking guy, man.

Lex Fridman (1:56:52.360)

But this bracket was really interesting

Lex Fridman (1:56:57.360)

if you look at like the backstory of 81 kilos,

Lex Fridman (1:57:00.360)

like leading up to the Olympics, right?

Lex Fridman (1:57:03.000)

Because at this point in time,

Travis Stevens (1:57:05.760)

I was inside the top 10 at all times,

Lex Fridman (1:57:09.960)

eight, seven, five, four, sixes.

Travis Stevens (1:57:14.160)

I fell out of there sometimes due to injuries,

Lex Fridman (1:57:16.040)

but I always climbed back in.

Travis Stevens (1:57:18.480)

There was another guy from Azerbaijan

Lex Fridman (1:57:23.760)

that was the Olympic champion at 73 kilos in 2008.

Lex Fridman (1:57:28.280)

And the entire division got rocked by match one

Lex Fridman (1:57:33.280)

because his first match was with Antoine Valus Fortier

Travis Stevens (1:57:39.400)

of Canada.

Lex Fridman (1:57:41.320)

And everybody who saw the draw come out was like,

Travis Stevens (1:57:45.520)

the Azerbaijanis gonna win it.

Lex Fridman (1:57:47.680)

He's the former Olympic champion.

Travis Stevens (1:57:49.840)

He's pretty much won most of the major events,

Lex Fridman (1:57:52.400)

including at 90 kilos, because he just had smooth judo.

Lex Fridman (1:57:56.920)

And match one rolls around, match two rolls around.

Lex Fridman (1:58:01.920)

Antoine's in the shoot and he's looking around

Lex Fridman (1:58:05.240)

and he's like, the Azerbaijanis not here.

Lex Fridman (1:58:09.040)

Well, where is he?

Travis Stevens (1:58:10.640)

No joke, he runs into the venue a match before,

Lex Fridman (1:58:16.400)

throws his gi on and runs onto the Olympic platform.

Travis Stevens (1:58:20.760)

Loses to the Canadian

Lex Fridman (1:58:22.160)

in like a three minute golden score battle.

Lex Fridman (1:58:26.360)

So do you think he warmed up?

Lex Fridman (1:58:28.400)

Didn't, he ran.

Travis Stevens (1:58:29.320)

He literally ran into the venue,

Lex Fridman (1:58:31.880)

threw his gi on and ran out, did no judo.

Lex Fridman (1:58:35.840)

And there you see Antoine losing in the quarters.

Lex Fridman (1:58:40.760)

So how good was Antoine?

Travis Stevens (1:58:42.840)

At this point in time, this is,

Lex Fridman (1:58:45.200)

I believe his first international medal

Travis Stevens (1:58:48.400)

was the Olympic games.

Lex Fridman (1:58:50.840)

So I don't think he'd ever meddled in Paris.

Travis Stevens (1:58:53.960)

He went into this bracket unranked,

Lex Fridman (1:58:57.200)

beating the ranked guy first round because he,

Travis Stevens (1:59:00.840)

I don't know if he missed the bus.

Lex Fridman (1:59:02.960)

I don't know if he was off his cycle and planned on losing

Travis Stevens (1:59:06.800)

cause he didn't want to test positive.

Lex Fridman (1:59:08.360)

I don't know.

Travis Stevens (1:59:09.600)

There's a lot of like questionable things out there

Lex Fridman (1:59:12.800)

that could have potentially caused him to,

Travis Stevens (1:59:17.400)

run onto the Olympic platform for match one.

Lex Fridman (1:59:21.720)

But it catapulted Antoine into like a belief

Travis Stevens (1:59:26.720)

that like, I beat the seated guy, I'm ready.

Lex Fridman (1:59:31.960)

And that was like a turning point in the Canadian's career

Lex Fridman (1:59:34.560)

just as a whole, right?

Lex Fridman (1:59:37.560)

That's that everybody has a defining moment.

Travis Stevens (1:59:40.960)

Like mine was when I beat Bischoff in Dusseldorf

Lex Fridman (1:59:45.040)

at the grand prix for Germany after 2008, right?

Travis Stevens (1:59:49.800)

I beat the Olympic champion in, on his home soil

Lex Fridman (1:59:53.240)

to go win the entire tournament.

Lex Fridman (1:59:55.480)

So we all have like those moments.

Lex Fridman (1:59:57.960)

It's just when it happens at the games,

Travis Stevens (20:00.040)

Yep, and then there's lateral,

Lex Fridman (20:02.400)

they actually go sideways over, like a cartwheel almost.

Travis Stevens (20:05.640)

Okay, so the forward throws,

Lex Fridman (20:07.800)

there's the one we've been talking about,

Travis Stevens (20:09.400)

which is Seinagi, and there's a bunch of different variants,

Lex Fridman (20:12.240)

Ippon, Marote, Seinagi.

Travis Stevens (20:14.240)

There's drop and there's standing versions of them.

Lex Fridman (20:16.920)

And that all, I don't know if there's a way to summarize it,

Lex Fridman (20:20.560)

but that's like as clean as getting your center of gravity

Lex Fridman (20:25.140)

under theirs as it gets.

Lex Fridman (20:27.800)

And then the rest is just gripping variations.

Lex Fridman (20:30.520)

I guess it's all gripping variations

Travis Stevens (20:32.160)

on all of these throws, but.

Lex Fridman (20:34.520)

And then there is, in terms of forward throws,

Travis Stevens (20:38.960)

there's the other big one in competition is Uchimata,

Lex Fridman (20:43.960)

which is, I don't know, we can try to explain that one.

Lex Fridman (20:49.120)

But it ends up being where one,

Lex Fridman (20:52.880)

you're standing on just one of your feet,

Lex Fridman (20:55.240)

and the other one is up in the air.

Lex Fridman (20:57.020)

And I don't know if you would put in that same category,

Travis Stevens (20:59.360)

Harai Goshi, like those kinds of throws

Lex Fridman (21:02.840)

where you're kind of a little bit single footed.

Travis Stevens (21:05.920)

Yeah, so there's two footed techniques

Lex Fridman (21:07.840)

and then there's single footed, yeah.

Travis Stevens (21:09.460)

Oh, Goshi, where it's like you're doing a mix

Lex Fridman (21:13.640)

between the Uchimata and the Seinagi.

Travis Stevens (21:16.360)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (21:17.200)

It's a hug.

Travis Stevens (21:18.080)

You hug a person and then you turn your hips around

Lex Fridman (21:21.480)

such that you're now hugging facing the same direction.

Travis Stevens (21:24.480)

When it comes to forward throw,

Lex Fridman (21:25.840)

there's, regardless of the name of the throw

Travis Stevens (21:29.520)

or the gripping variation that you're using,

Lex Fridman (21:32.760)

the whole principle is how do I get this person

Lex Fridman (21:35.080)

to do a forward roll in midair and land on their back?

Lex Fridman (21:40.240)

The more of a forward roll I can get, the bigger the score.

Travis Stevens (21:43.520)

If I get like a quarter of a turn

Lex Fridman (21:46.120)

where like you land on your side

Lex Fridman (21:47.280)

and you don't go over your back, it's a half score.

Lex Fridman (21:50.080)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (21:50.920)

But they all require me to get you

Lex Fridman (21:53.280)

to do that forward rolling action.

Lex Fridman (21:55.160)

So just if we think of one person,

Lex Fridman (21:56.760)

if they do this nice leap forward and they do a roll

Lex Fridman (22:00.840)

and their back nicely rolls over the ground,

Lex Fridman (22:03.080)

you're trying to do the exact same thing

Travis Stevens (22:04.600)

with you connected to them.

Lex Fridman (22:06.000)

Well, and if it's nice and it's smooth,

Travis Stevens (22:08.480)

it's probably not a full score.

Lex Fridman (22:10.080)

It needs to have like somewhat of a violent impact.

Lex Fridman (22:15.100)

Right?

Lex Fridman (22:15.940)

So if you think of a drop, say Nagi,

Travis Stevens (22:16.960)

if I'm moving too slow and you still roll over your shoulders

Lex Fridman (22:21.680)

and there's no direct impact, it's only a half score.

Travis Stevens (22:24.880)

Right.

Lex Fridman (22:25.720)

They want the force.

Travis Stevens (22:27.120)

The force, the violence.

Lex Fridman (22:28.900)

Yes.

Travis Stevens (22:29.740)

It's good.

Lex Fridman (22:30.560)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (22:31.400)

So then in terms of backward throws, the traditional ones,

Lex Fridman (22:36.400)

there's stuff where you trip them from outside their body,

Travis Stevens (22:41.480)

like Osoto gari.

Lex Fridman (22:43.360)

It's a trip where you hook your leg onto their leg

Lex Fridman (22:46.800)

and you trip them, but your hook goes outside of their legs.

Lex Fridman (22:51.280)

And then there's the trips from inside their body.

Travis Stevens (22:54.920)

There's a one foot is called kuchi gari

Lex Fridman (22:58.040)

and then the other is ochi gari, it doesn't matter.

Travis Stevens (23:00.960)

The most important thing is outside and inside.

Lex Fridman (23:03.640)

Inside and then there's like,

Travis Stevens (23:07.280)

I don't even know how you throw them sideways

Lex Fridman (23:08.920)

except foot sweeps.

Lex Fridman (23:09.800)

And then there's the foot sweeps

Lex Fridman (23:11.200)

where you can sweep one of their legs from out of them

Travis Stevens (23:14.920)

or both their legs at the same time.

Lex Fridman (23:17.180)

And like we're talking about this kind of is

Travis Stevens (23:20.440)

when timed perfectly, it's effortless for everybody involved

Lex Fridman (23:24.720)

and the ending, like you said, is big, dramatic and violent.

Travis Stevens (23:30.000)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (23:31.560)

Is there other kind of, oh yeah.

Travis Stevens (23:33.360)

There's a sacrifice techniques.

Lex Fridman (23:36.480)

There's a bunch of them.

Lex Fridman (23:38.040)

And that ultimately the variations have to do with gripping,

Lex Fridman (23:41.900)

but you're basically you, the attacker fall onto your back,

Travis Stevens (23:46.080)

sticking your legs somewhere onto their body,

Lex Fridman (23:49.920)

which is like this fulcrum over which they fly

Lex Fridman (23:52.560)

and do that same kind of roll that you mentioned.

Lex Fridman (23:54.560)

You basically sacrifice your back to the mat

Travis Stevens (23:56.880)

in order to throw them into that circular pattern.

Lex Fridman (24:00.040)

So they hit their back.

Travis Stevens (24:01.580)

Sometimes we use a foot,

Lex Fridman (24:02.720)

sometimes we don't.

Lex Fridman (24:04.040)

And so we should probably say,

Lex Fridman (24:06.540)

it's okay for you to go onto your back

Travis Stevens (24:09.440)

as long as you're clearly demonstrating control

Lex Fridman (24:12.240)

over the other person's body.

Travis Stevens (24:14.080)

Correct.

Lex Fridman (24:14.920)

You can't go to your back in the same direction

Travis Stevens (24:18.000)

that your opponent is trying to put you to your back.

Lex Fridman (24:22.140)

You have to go the other way

Travis Stevens (24:23.500)

or you have to initiate you going to your own back.

Lex Fridman (24:27.960)

Right.

Travis Stevens (24:29.280)

Like clearly.

Lex Fridman (24:30.340)

And then there's all the counters

Travis Stevens (24:33.600)

which almost kind of have a whole group of their own,

Lex Fridman (24:37.440)

even though they have echoes of the same types of techniques,

Travis Stevens (24:41.060)

it seems like they're their own whole thing.

Lex Fridman (24:43.220)

Yeah, but they follow the same principles.

Travis Stevens (24:45.320)

It's just most counters.

Lex Fridman (24:47.680)

Like if you wanted to counter Ennuchi Mata, for example,

Travis Stevens (24:51.880)

you're trying to throw me in a somersault

Lex Fridman (24:54.520)

over my right shoulder.

Travis Stevens (24:56.540)

Therefore, I would counter you

Lex Fridman (24:58.380)

by throwing you over your left shoulder.

Travis Stevens (25:01.760)

It goes in the opposite shoulder direction,

Lex Fridman (25:03.760)

but in the same somersault idea.

Lex Fridman (25:06.920)

And there used to be, I already at this point,

Lex Fridman (25:09.500)

forget the years, but it might be before the 2012 Olympics

Travis Stevens (25:13.560)

where they banned, you used to be allowed to grab legs

Lex Fridman (25:17.280)

in the same way you do in wrestling.

Lex Fridman (25:19.440)

So you have basically all the techniques

Lex Fridman (25:21.400)

you would have in wrestling available to you

Travis Stevens (25:24.760)

if you would like.

Lex Fridman (25:26.120)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (25:26.960)

It's just that some of the techniques in wrestling

Lex Fridman (25:28.920)

are not that effective

Travis Stevens (25:30.040)

for getting your opponent to their back.

Lex Fridman (25:32.800)

Wrestlers wanna take the other person down

Travis Stevens (25:34.720)

in any way possible and have control.

Lex Fridman (25:36.880)

Judo wants to take you down, like we said,

Travis Stevens (25:38.760)

in a big fashion where your back slams on the ground.

Lex Fridman (25:41.400)

Yeah, it has to be to the back.

Travis Stevens (25:42.760)

A lot of wrestling takedowns happen

Lex Fridman (25:44.800)

because they get behind them and then they parterre out.

Travis Stevens (25:49.040)

Yeah, so, but Judo banned all touching of the legs,

Lex Fridman (25:54.040)

which is a very dramatic change at the sport.

Lex Fridman (25:57.160)

But after 2012.

Lex Fridman (25:58.480)

After, it was after 2012?

Travis Stevens (25:59.920)

It was.

Lex Fridman (26:00.760)

In 2012, so 2008, I fought the games

Lex Fridman (26:03.120)

and everything was free.

Lex Fridman (26:05.280)

In 2012, we could only touch the legs

Travis Stevens (26:07.920)

as a defensive action or in response to an attack.

Lex Fridman (26:13.800)

So I could try to throw you with a normal throw

Lex Fridman (26:17.680)

and then when you try to counter, I could grab your leg.

Lex Fridman (26:20.400)

Right.

Lex Fridman (26:21.240)

So there had to be a secondary technique.

Lex Fridman (26:24.240)

And didn't, like, didn't they disqualify

Lex Fridman (26:27.200)

on a first offense?

Lex Fridman (26:29.200)

First offense was a direct disqualification,

Travis Stevens (26:31.360)

which happened at the 2012 games to the 57 Brazilian

Lex Fridman (26:35.760)

who won in 16.

Travis Stevens (26:37.560)

She was DQed and I think the quarters.

Lex Fridman (26:40.200)

And it was like, I wouldn't say it was blatant

Travis Stevens (26:44.000)

as much as I don't think the act changed the outcome

Lex Fridman (26:48.240)

of the match had they not disqualified her.

Lex Fridman (26:50.040)

So that's not that dramatic.

Lex Fridman (26:51.400)

And by the way, you say 57, that refers to weight divisions

Lex Fridman (26:54.920)

and that's in kilograms and kilograms is the measure

Lex Fridman (26:58.160)

of weight that the rest of the world uses

Lex Fridman (27:00.200)

and the United States does not.

Lex Fridman (27:02.400)

So, and there's, we should say the divisions for guys,

Travis Stevens (27:08.360)

I don't know what the 70, I don't know if the lower level,

Lex Fridman (27:11.120)

60.

Travis Stevens (27:11.960)

60, 66, 73, 81, 90, 100 and heavyweight,

Lex Fridman (27:17.680)

which has no ceiling.

Travis Stevens (27:19.200)

No ceiling, as we'll talk about.

Lex Fridman (27:21.120)

It's an important distinction.

Travis Stevens (27:22.120)

Yeah, it is an important distinction.

Lex Fridman (27:26.760)

And you competed most of your career at 81 kilograms.

Travis Stevens (27:30.600)

All of it.

Lex Fridman (27:31.960)

All, you never did 73.

Travis Stevens (27:33.280)

I never did 73.

Lex Fridman (27:34.640)

Well, you had to cut big for 81 anyway,

Travis Stevens (27:36.840)

especially towards the end of my career, yeah.

Lex Fridman (27:39.720)

Okay.

Travis Stevens (27:41.400)

I overly grew into the division.

Lex Fridman (27:43.200)

What's, I'm trying to remember, is it about 180 pounds?

Travis Stevens (27:47.640)

178.6, I think.

Lex Fridman (27:49.720)

And you have to weigh in with the gear.

Travis Stevens (27:52.240)

No, nothing.

Lex Fridman (27:53.680)

You're not allowed to wear anything

Travis Stevens (27:54.880)

except for your underwear, weigh in.

Lex Fridman (27:56.680)

Confusing digits, that's right, that's right, that's right.

Travis Stevens (27:58.880)

That's which is very nice.

Lex Fridman (28:02.160)

Okay, so we, would you say we covered

Lex Fridman (28:04.720)

most of the throws or no?

Lex Fridman (28:07.720)

So there's the forward and the backward,

Travis Stevens (28:10.000)

there's the sacrifice throws and the counters.

Lex Fridman (28:12.680)

Yep.

Lex Fridman (28:13.520)

And then there's the leg grabs.

Lex Fridman (28:15.280)

And we should say for the leg grabs that were effective,

Travis Stevens (28:17.880)

it's like the big pickups

Lex Fridman (28:20.480)

where you just kind of pick them up

Lex Fridman (28:21.880)

and try to figure out once they're in the air

Lex Fridman (28:24.120)

what the heck to do with their body

Travis Stevens (28:25.520)

to get them to the ground.

Lex Fridman (28:26.840)

You just kind of figure it out as you go.

Travis Stevens (28:28.720)

I think the really nice one

Lex Fridman (28:30.560)

that was to me heartbreaking as a fantasy go

Travis Stevens (28:33.800)

is I guess what's called a fireman's carry,

Lex Fridman (28:37.120)

which is, it does lead to judo like beautiful throws.

Lex Fridman (28:42.120)

And the fact that that was gone is,

Lex Fridman (28:45.280)

that one I missed a little bit,

Lex Fridman (28:47.440)

but then a bunch of people I guess came up with the variance

Lex Fridman (28:50.600)

where you don't need to grab the leg.

Travis Stevens (28:52.920)

It's definitely not as effective as being able to grab it,

Lex Fridman (28:57.160)

but I'm also on the side of the fence

Travis Stevens (28:59.800)

having competed in all three.

Lex Fridman (29:02.080)

It was definitely better for the sport

Travis Stevens (29:04.280)

to remove it as a whole.

Lex Fridman (29:07.240)

It's probably good to cover sort of

Travis Stevens (29:08.560)

the whole spectrum of rules of judo

Lex Fridman (29:10.960)

is there's groundwork.

Lex Fridman (29:12.440)

So you do all this stuff on the feet

Lex Fridman (29:15.200)

where you're trying to murder each other

Travis Stevens (29:16.680)

with a giant throw.

Lex Fridman (29:18.000)

But then if the throw doesn't succeed,

Travis Stevens (29:21.120)

you go to the ground and you stay in the ground

Lex Fridman (29:23.000)

for some amount of time, like short amount of time.

Travis Stevens (29:25.320)

You have to move quickly, you have to be attacking.

Lex Fridman (29:27.960)

And two of the ways you can win

Travis Stevens (29:30.680)

is similar to people who do jiu jitsu

Lex Fridman (29:32.880)

is you can submit them, chokes, arm breaks,

Travis Stevens (29:36.720)

all that kind of stuff, no footlocks.

Lex Fridman (29:39.320)

And you can also pin them,

Travis Stevens (29:43.320)

which is get around their legs.

Lex Fridman (29:44.720)

And this is very, no, this is not like wrestling.

Travis Stevens (29:47.960)

You have to actually get around their legs

Lex Fridman (29:50.320)

and pin them in what in jiu jitsu is called

Travis Stevens (29:53.440)

side control mount, all kinds of ways

Lex Fridman (29:55.400)

that doesn't involve their legs.

Lex Fridman (29:57.480)

And then you pin them for like whatever,

Lex Fridman (29:59.000)

20 seconds, 25 seconds.

Travis Stevens (2:00:00.120)

it throws the bracket like into a tailspin.

Lex Fridman (2:00:02.920)

Cause typically you'd know like who's going to beat who,

Travis Stevens (2:00:05.640)

where it's going to happen.

Lex Fridman (2:00:07.680)

And when you look at my quarter final against the Brazilian,

Lex Fridman (2:00:11.640)

what most people don't know is I was,

Lex Fridman (2:00:14.120)

I was so thankful I had that match.

Travis Stevens (2:00:16.480)

Most people would never in a million years be like,

Lex Fridman (2:00:19.920)

I want to fight the world number one at the Olympic games.

Travis Stevens (2:00:22.280)

That's what I want to do.

Lex Fridman (2:00:23.680)

I want to be the eighth seed fighting the world number one

Travis Stevens (2:00:25.880)

cause I'm going to win.

Lex Fridman (2:00:27.960)

I was pissed off at him.

Travis Stevens (2:00:29.800)

I was so angry because we,

Lex Fridman (2:00:34.080)

we were at the Pan Am's I think the year before

Lex Fridman (2:00:37.800)

and there was a team tournament and I wanted to fight him.

Lex Fridman (2:00:40.300)

I had lost the quarters to a Cuban, I think.

Travis Stevens (2:00:46.240)

In like the first gripping exchange,

Lex Fridman (2:00:47.880)

he threw me with a drop sale out of nowhere.

Travis Stevens (2:00:50.280)

I was pissed.

Lex Fridman (2:00:51.400)

So I wanted my hands on the Brazilian and the team match.

Travis Stevens (2:00:55.040)

Well, the Brazilian team is warming up.

Lex Fridman (2:00:57.600)

So I walk up to him, no joke.

Travis Stevens (2:00:59.080)

I walked up to him and I go, you're fighting.

Lex Fridman (2:01:01.520)

And he goes, not today.

Lex Fridman (2:01:03.780)

And I went, are you fucking kidding me?

Lex Fridman (2:01:06.140)

I warmed up.

Travis Stevens (2:01:06.980)

I taped up that you're the only fucking guy I want to fight

Lex Fridman (2:01:09.440)

and you're going to fucking sit in the stands

Lex Fridman (2:01:10.680)

and read a goddamn book.

Lex Fridman (2:01:12.680)

I was so angry.

Travis Stevens (2:01:13.680)

I carried that anger cause I never fought him until this day.

Lex Fridman (2:01:17.120)

I was fucking pissed.

Travis Stevens (2:01:18.240)

I was ready to beat him.

Lex Fridman (2:01:19.780)

That's right, I forgot he was the world number one.

Travis Stevens (2:01:24.960)

Cause I remember being really excited at that match.

Lex Fridman (2:01:27.680)

How did you beat him?

Travis Stevens (2:01:28.720)

I threw him with two hands on the same side, collar,

Lex Fridman (2:01:31.880)

like drop sale.

Travis Stevens (2:01:32.720)

I cross gripped, I yanked him behind me and I threw him.

Lex Fridman (2:01:35.640)

Epon?

Travis Stevens (2:01:36.480)

Wazari.

Lex Fridman (2:01:37.300)

And then the match ended 30 seconds later.

Travis Stevens (2:01:41.620)

I was pumped.

Lex Fridman (2:01:42.820)

So fucking angry.

Travis Stevens (2:01:43.660)

I thought, okay, if I'm remembering correctly,

Lex Fridman (2:01:46.320)

I thought, okay, this guy might actually win gold.

Travis Stevens (2:01:51.900)

That's what made, for me as a spectator,

Lex Fridman (2:01:55.160)

remembering now the next match that much more like painful.

Lex Fridman (2:02:00.440)

And then the fans of judo that really followed the sport,

Lex Fridman (2:02:05.440)

the stats, when you look at the games and my draws,

Travis Stevens (2:02:08.680)

I had the worst possible draw

Lex Fridman (2:02:09.760)

as you ever could have imagined.

Travis Stevens (2:02:11.560)

At both London and Rio, I fought the world number one

Lex Fridman (2:02:15.120)

to get to the final or into the semis or past the semis.

Lex Fridman (2:02:19.100)

And everybody I fought in the draw

Lex Fridman (2:02:22.420)

either beat me the last time we fought

Travis Stevens (2:02:24.640)

or I had never fought before.

Lex Fridman (2:02:27.000)

So I always held a loss going onto the mat

Travis Stevens (2:02:29.320)

at the Olympic games.

Lex Fridman (2:02:30.240)

How'd you feel about that, by the way?

Travis Stevens (2:02:31.600)

Like what were your feelings

Lex Fridman (2:02:32.920)

about facing the Brazilian first?

Travis Stevens (2:02:35.360)

I was so excited.

Lex Fridman (2:02:36.560)

Well, that was match three.

Travis Stevens (2:02:38.860)

In London, I fought the Slovenian guy first round

Lex Fridman (2:02:41.360)

who beat me.

Lex Fridman (2:02:44.220)

Where'd he beat me?

Lex Fridman (2:02:45.060)

Was it the Worlds?

Travis Stevens (2:02:46.280)

Might've been the Worlds.

Lex Fridman (2:02:47.640)

And then, Church's Ville, I fought in the second round

Travis Stevens (2:02:50.400)

who threw me for Wazari in Japan.

Lex Fridman (2:02:54.800)

And then, Leandro, who I don't think I ever fought,

Travis Stevens (2:02:58.160)

who was world number one.

Lex Fridman (2:02:59.400)

That avoided fighting me at the team tournament.

Lex Fridman (2:03:02.240)

But I mean, every single Olympics you've fought

Lex Fridman (2:03:04.720)

and you really stepped up.

Travis Stevens (2:03:06.040)

It's the only tournament I've ever prepped for.

Lex Fridman (2:03:09.040)

Mentally and physically and just the whole thing?

Travis Stevens (2:03:11.100)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:03:11.940)

We never trained through this tournament

Travis Stevens (2:03:14.280)

like we did for the others.

Lex Fridman (2:03:15.520)

Or I would go into it injured.

Travis Stevens (2:03:18.480)

All right, well, let's talk about,

Lex Fridman (2:03:19.400)

you're standing there next to the German.

Travis Stevens (2:03:24.120)

He looked always smaller than you,

Lex Fridman (2:03:26.360)

but you said like strong.

Travis Stevens (2:03:28.260)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:03:30.400)

So what are you feeling now, Jimmy Pedro behind you?

Travis Stevens (2:03:33.720)

I was fucking ready to take his head off.

Lex Fridman (2:03:35.520)

Did you have an idea of what you're gonna do?

Lex Fridman (2:03:38.920)

Did you try to, do you're thinking of winning by Ypon?

Lex Fridman (2:03:41.800)

Were you thinking like going for big throws,

Lex Fridman (2:03:44.040)

or take him in deep waters, outgrip him?

Lex Fridman (2:03:47.280)

What were you thinking?

Travis Stevens (2:03:48.160)

We were about to have a battle

Lex Fridman (2:03:50.120)

and I wasn't gonna throw him until he broke mentally.

Travis Stevens (2:03:55.160)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (2:03:56.280)

That was, there was no like,

Travis Stevens (2:03:59.180)

oh, this is gonna be a clean throw.

Lex Fridman (2:04:00.980)

That was never, that was never the thought process.

Lex Fridman (2:04:05.720)

So here, you know there's going to be a lot of gripping.

Lex Fridman (2:04:10.720)

So we're seeing a shit ton of gripping.

Lex Fridman (2:04:14.080)

And right here, he throws it, bang, close fisted.

Lex Fridman (2:04:20.100)

You got a lot of adrenaline.

Travis Stevens (2:04:21.740)

You seem calm.

Lex Fridman (2:04:22.580)

I'm pissed.

Travis Stevens (2:04:23.420)

You're pissed.

Lex Fridman (2:04:24.260)

Like, you don't look serious, you just look like.

Travis Stevens (2:04:26.180)

I'm looking at the ref like,

Lex Fridman (2:04:27.780)

cause he keeps telling me to get up.

Travis Stevens (2:04:28.700)

I'm like, I have blood running down my face.

Lex Fridman (2:04:32.060)

I go.

Travis Stevens (2:04:33.180)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (2:04:34.680)

Here, there's blood.

Travis Stevens (2:04:36.140)

See, and he's like, oh yeah, go fix it.

Lex Fridman (2:04:37.980)

And that's on your eyebrow somewhere?

Travis Stevens (2:04:39.980)

Yeah, he split it just underneath it.

Lex Fridman (2:04:42.260)

So you split your eyebrow.

Lex Fridman (2:04:43.380)

And so in judo, they don't, they're allergic to blood,

Lex Fridman (2:04:46.820)

probably for a good reason.

Lex Fridman (2:04:47.900)

But they, so now you have to try to figure out

Lex Fridman (2:04:51.180)

how to tape that up.

Travis Stevens (2:04:53.420)

Yep.

Lex Fridman (2:04:54.300)

Which already sets up one of the most bad ass

Travis Stevens (2:04:58.140)

looks in judo history.

Lex Fridman (2:05:00.660)

First 15 seconds, busted my eye open.

Lex Fridman (2:05:04.140)

Was that getting in the way of your eyesight at all or no?

Lex Fridman (2:05:06.380)

No.

Travis Stevens (2:05:07.220)

Damn, he looks good at gripping.

Lex Fridman (2:05:10.740)

How difficult is it to get a grip on that guy?

Travis Stevens (2:05:12.940)

Very.

Lex Fridman (2:05:14.740)

Like I'm struggling just to get my hand in the collar

Lex Fridman (2:05:16.660)

and he wasn't even blocking it.

Lex Fridman (2:05:18.220)

Is he being cagey?

Lex Fridman (2:05:19.820)

Remember like, is he interested in offense?

Lex Fridman (2:05:22.540)

Nope.

Travis Stevens (2:05:23.380)

He's a very cagey, you know, methodical player.

Lex Fridman (2:05:27.300)

Like he, he never opens himself up.

Travis Stevens (2:05:30.300)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:05:31.900)

There you go.

Travis Stevens (2:05:32.740)

You grabbed the leg as part of a combination.

Lex Fridman (2:05:34.500)

Yep.

Lex Fridman (2:05:35.340)

And people have told me that he's actually very good

Lex Fridman (2:05:38.740)

at throwing people.

Travis Stevens (2:05:39.820)

He just doesn't.

Lex Fridman (2:05:41.220)

So, but he just doesn't show it at these.

Travis Stevens (2:05:43.380)

Nope.

Lex Fridman (2:05:44.220)

Cause he, he doesn't care how he wins.

Travis Stevens (2:05:46.660)

He cares that he wins.

Lex Fridman (2:05:48.340)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (2:05:49.180)

Which makes him very difficult to beat.

Lex Fridman (2:05:51.940)

Cause he knows when you've strategized to do that,

Travis Stevens (2:05:55.340)

where you look at the rule set and you develop a plan

Lex Fridman (2:05:57.740)

to get through the matches,

Travis Stevens (2:05:59.460)

then you've really got to figure out a way

Lex Fridman (2:06:01.940)

to get that person off that game plan.

Travis Stevens (2:06:04.540)

You know, whether you get ahead by a penalty or something.

Lex Fridman (2:06:08.740)

Right there.

Travis Stevens (2:06:10.260)

Like, he wouldn't give me the sleeve,

Lex Fridman (2:06:13.820)

so I grabbed all of his fingers.

Travis Stevens (2:06:15.860)

Oh, nice.

Lex Fridman (2:06:17.180)

In which I open like, like this way or?

Travis Stevens (2:06:21.220)

I grabbed them the other way and I started lifting them.

Lex Fridman (2:06:23.940)

Ah, yeah.

Travis Stevens (2:06:24.780)

Like I start, nice.

Lex Fridman (2:06:25.620)

Oh, like perfect.

Travis Stevens (2:06:26.460)

Reverse play and mercy.

Lex Fridman (2:06:27.300)

Like this.

Travis Stevens (2:06:28.140)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:06:28.980)

Oh, this is great.

Travis Stevens (2:06:30.540)

Cause he wouldn't give me the sleeve

Lex Fridman (2:06:31.660)

and I needed an attack.

Lex Fridman (2:06:33.820)

And then I'm like, okay, I can't hold onto this forever

Lex Fridman (2:06:36.060)

cause that judge is going to see it.

Lex Fridman (2:06:37.180)

So let me just do a quick throw here

Lex Fridman (2:06:38.700)

while I'm using the fingers in the mercy grip.

Travis Stevens (2:06:40.500)

You're holding on.

Lex Fridman (2:06:41.580)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:06:42.420)

And then I just sit out.

Lex Fridman (2:06:43.780)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:06:46.860)

And then he goes to get up and I go to get on top

Lex Fridman (2:06:49.740)

and right here.

Travis Stevens (2:06:51.580)

Nice.

Lex Fridman (2:06:52.580)

That elbow.

Lex Fridman (2:06:53.420)

You get him?

Lex Fridman (2:06:54.260)

Oh, you got him.

Travis Stevens (2:06:55.100)

Yeah, it looks like I elbow him.

Lex Fridman (2:06:57.340)

Did you do it kind of?

Travis Stevens (2:06:58.500)

No, I didn't.

Lex Fridman (2:07:00.020)

At the time, I never knew this happened

Travis Stevens (2:07:02.660)

until after I watched this like three or four years later.

Lex Fridman (2:07:06.220)

Didn't even know, I didn't even feel it.

Travis Stevens (2:07:08.660)

Look at that.

Lex Fridman (2:07:09.500)

So he's legitimately angry here.

Travis Stevens (2:07:10.940)

Yeah, he's angry.

Lex Fridman (2:07:13.220)

And of course you can't, you can't move.

Lex Fridman (2:07:15.660)

Why would you move?

Lex Fridman (2:07:16.740)

Look at this.

Travis Stevens (2:07:17.580)

This moment right there is gold.

Lex Fridman (2:07:19.100)

If you're not watching this on video, you're missing out.

Travis Stevens (2:07:21.380)

You never get this in judo.

Lex Fridman (2:07:23.100)

No, I don't know if that's ever happened.

Travis Stevens (2:07:25.420)

That little face off.

Lex Fridman (2:07:26.900)

Especially on a stage like this.

Travis Stevens (2:07:29.100)

The reference.

Lex Fridman (2:07:30.260)

And then he brings us in to like talk to us

Lex Fridman (2:07:32.180)

and he's like, hey, we're good, right?

Lex Fridman (2:07:33.780)

Like, you guys aren't about to do

Lex Fridman (2:07:34.860)

what I think you're about to do.

Lex Fridman (2:07:38.060)

And he's like, hey, shake hands again.

Travis Stevens (2:07:39.900)

Cause the first time we did it, that wasn't good enough.

Lex Fridman (2:07:41.860)

Well, you gotta do it again.

Travis Stevens (2:07:45.580)

The heartbreaking part about this

Lex Fridman (2:07:47.380)

and why the IJF switched it to an unlimited golden score.

Travis Stevens (2:07:51.260)

Because we fought five minutes

Lex Fridman (2:07:54.860)

through the entire normal part of the match.

Lex Fridman (2:07:57.660)

And then we did the entire overtime period of three minutes.

Lex Fridman (2:08:01.980)

Not one penalty was given.

Travis Stevens (2:08:04.340)

No gripping infractions, no false attacks,

Lex Fridman (2:08:07.060)

like no stallings.

Travis Stevens (2:08:08.140)

That's great.

Lex Fridman (2:08:08.980)

Nobody was really backing up.

Travis Stevens (2:08:10.340)

Yep.

Lex Fridman (2:08:11.180)

I mean, he was, you know.

Lex Fridman (2:08:12.020)

So what was Jimmy telling you here?

Lex Fridman (2:08:14.780)

Or was he talking to you at all?

Travis Stevens (2:08:16.500)

He's not allowed to talk during medical things

Lex Fridman (2:08:19.500)

and my nose is now broken.

Lex Fridman (2:08:21.860)

But he's also, oh, the nose is broken.

Lex Fridman (2:08:23.860)

From what?

Travis Stevens (2:08:25.060)

I caught an elbow from him.

Lex Fridman (2:08:28.340)

Glad his face is clean.

Travis Stevens (2:08:29.420)

That's fun.

Lex Fridman (2:08:30.900)

And right here, I was pissed.

Travis Stevens (2:08:32.700)

I was so angry at the medic

Lex Fridman (2:08:34.660)

because he's fumbling around and I'm like,

Travis Stevens (2:08:36.420)

my whole plan is to break the German mentally.

Lex Fridman (2:08:40.180)

You gotta hurry up with the tape, man.

Travis Stevens (2:08:42.380)

He's supposed to be tired.

Lex Fridman (2:08:43.620)

He's not supposed to be resting.

Lex Fridman (2:08:46.940)

Is Jimmy yelling here?

Lex Fridman (2:08:48.220)

He can't.

Travis Stevens (2:08:49.340)

No, not here, not here, but during the match.

Lex Fridman (2:08:52.380)

And you can see I just take it from him

Lex Fridman (2:08:53.780)

and I'm like, give it to me.

Lex Fridman (2:08:54.780)

I'm gonna do it myself.

Travis Stevens (2:08:55.740)

Get out of here.

Lex Fridman (2:08:58.380)

How scared is the medic?

Travis Stevens (2:09:00.740)

He's like, this guy's gonna kill me.

Lex Fridman (2:09:01.580)

He can't even tear the tape.

Travis Stevens (2:09:03.220)

Look how nervous he is.

Lex Fridman (2:09:06.580)

We made fun of him for this so much throughout the years.

Travis Stevens (2:09:10.900)

Still do to this day.

Lex Fridman (2:09:12.380)

All right, here we go.

Travis Stevens (2:09:13.300)

Oh, you look great getting geared up.

Lex Fridman (2:09:15.780)

Can't really see, don't care.

Travis Stevens (2:09:17.820)

Was there some outcome in your mind

Lex Fridman (2:09:19.780)

that you could possibly beat him on the ground

Lex Fridman (2:09:21.300)

with a submission or a pin?

Lex Fridman (2:09:22.620)

You knew you were gonna have to throw him.

Travis Stevens (2:09:24.260)

I knew I was gonna have to.

Lex Fridman (2:09:26.020)

If I was gonna throw him or armbar him

Travis Stevens (2:09:29.020)

or pin him, whatever the case may be,

Lex Fridman (2:09:31.860)

it was gonna be his mental like, I'm just tired of this.

Travis Stevens (2:09:37.260)

He's too cagey of a player.

Lex Fridman (2:09:38.660)

He's too experienced.

Travis Stevens (2:09:41.380)

He has to mentally make that choice to give that inch.

Lex Fridman (2:09:44.780)

And then you just have to be ready to take it.

Lex Fridman (2:09:47.140)

So I was just waiting for it.

Lex Fridman (2:09:50.140)

And so now this is four minutes in, one minute left.

Travis Stevens (2:09:53.300)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:09:54.140)

Oh, is that in your game plan two potentials

Lex Fridman (2:09:57.700)

like sumi gaeshi, like the sacrifice throws to him?

Lex Fridman (2:10:01.180)

Cause the whole point of that technique

Lex Fridman (2:10:03.420)

and the sacrifice throws wasn't

Lex Fridman (2:10:04.940)

because I thought I was gonna throw him,

Lex Fridman (2:10:07.180)

but it disrupts the pattern enough

Lex Fridman (2:10:10.060)

to like get him to make a potential mistake.

Travis Stevens (2:10:14.100)

Like see, he should have gotten Ashido there.

Lex Fridman (2:10:16.700)

Hands in the face.

Lex Fridman (2:10:18.300)

But again, that's just part of judo.

Lex Fridman (2:10:20.220)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (2:10:21.300)

He poked me in the elbow.

Lex Fridman (2:10:23.740)

This is a rough match.

Lex Fridman (2:10:25.340)

Does he act at all or no?

Lex Fridman (2:10:27.700)

Like, was he acting frustrated or anything like that?

Travis Stevens (2:10:30.060)

It was all like, he's like acting for the ref.

Lex Fridman (2:10:33.380)

You know what I mean?

Travis Stevens (2:10:34.220)

Like, oh, that, all that kind of stuff.

Lex Fridman (2:10:35.860)

You're just going in hard, nonstop,

Travis Stevens (2:10:39.340)

like angry, aggressive, feeling cardio here at all.

Lex Fridman (2:10:43.620)

Like.

Travis Stevens (2:10:44.460)

I don't, I didn't get tired during this.

Lex Fridman (2:10:46.940)

And then just always pressing for.

Travis Stevens (2:10:48.700)

Time runs out.

Lex Fridman (2:10:50.220)

Now we're into golden score.

Travis Stevens (2:10:51.820)

12 minutes and 38 seconds later.

Lex Fridman (2:10:54.580)

Yeah, you think about every judo exchange, right?

Travis Stevens (2:10:56.820)

Every time we grip up, every time we attack,

Lex Fridman (2:10:59.300)

sometimes it can take longer to get back to the line

Travis Stevens (2:11:01.380)

than the entire exchange.

Lex Fridman (2:11:02.660)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:11:03.700)

So the more aggression, the more exchanges you have,

Lex Fridman (2:11:06.100)

the longer the time stretches.

Travis Stevens (2:11:09.580)

Then here, the six seconds left in golden score,

Lex Fridman (2:11:13.420)

your tape is now yellow and red

Travis Stevens (2:11:20.260)

with sweat and blood, literally, and time is out.

Lex Fridman (2:11:23.220)

Now, what are you thinking here?

Lex Fridman (2:11:24.340)

Do you think you won the match?

Lex Fridman (2:11:26.860)

I thought I won the match a minute ago.

Travis Stevens (2:11:30.900)

I remember thinking to myself,

Lex Fridman (2:11:32.380)

like if this goes to the flags, I won.

Travis Stevens (2:11:36.460)

No doubt in my mind.

Lex Fridman (2:11:39.500)

Because I felt like the whole time,

Lex Fridman (2:11:42.500)

like I was going to him, right?

Lex Fridman (2:11:45.260)

He was never coming at me.

Travis Stevens (2:11:47.940)

Yeah, that's the way it felt.

Lex Fridman (2:11:49.900)

And like, that's the way it felt body language wise,

Travis Stevens (2:11:52.940)

just the intensity, how fast you're moving towards him.

Lex Fridman (2:11:55.820)

You're constantly going for throws.

Travis Stevens (2:12:00.820)

Now, if you want to rewind that,

Lex Fridman (2:12:02.300)

we can talk about the whole,

Travis Stevens (2:12:03.660)

because it's a part of this clip.

Lex Fridman (2:12:05.020)

So wait a minute, they all went blue.

Travis Stevens (2:12:08.420)

They all did.

Lex Fridman (2:12:09.260)

So in judo, there's three referees,

Travis Stevens (2:12:12.140)

two on the side, one in the center,

Lex Fridman (2:12:13.780)

and they all vote on who won.

Lex Fridman (2:12:14.620)

And now let's pause it right there.

Lex Fridman (2:12:16.180)

Now, the way this is supposed to work,

Travis Stevens (2:12:18.260)

they raise their flags, they do like a one, two count,

Lex Fridman (2:12:21.900)

and then on three, they all raise it together.

Travis Stevens (2:12:24.900)

Now, as a little pretext to this entire match,

Lex Fridman (2:12:28.260)

up until this point, not one match at the Olympic Games

Travis Stevens (2:12:32.420)

has ever been a split decision.

Lex Fridman (2:12:34.820)

Meaning out of three people,

Travis Stevens (2:12:37.460)

not one of them voted against the other group members.

Lex Fridman (2:12:41.340)

So they were all unified blue or all unified white.

Travis Stevens (2:12:44.580)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:12:45.420)

Right?

Travis Stevens (2:12:46.260)

Which is statistically difficult to imagine.

Lex Fridman (2:12:49.260)

Yes.

Travis Stevens (2:12:50.660)

It's almost like they had a referee meeting and said,

Lex Fridman (2:12:53.940)

it's better for the Olympics.

Travis Stevens (2:12:55.740)

To never have a split.

Lex Fridman (2:12:56.980)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (2:12:58.260)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (2:13:00.020)

So the question becomes,

Lex Fridman (2:13:02.820)

if you would click that frame by frame, right?

Lex Fridman (2:13:08.100)

So right now we have all the refs with their flags out

Lex Fridman (2:13:11.740)

and then click that.

Lex Fridman (2:13:12.940)

So the middle guy starts.

Travis Stevens (2:13:15.340)

He is all the way up.

Lex Fridman (2:13:17.020)

All the way up.

Travis Stevens (2:13:17.860)

The other side judges haven't moved.

Lex Fridman (2:13:20.260)

We now have one side ref all the way up.

Travis Stevens (2:13:23.620)

Then we have a third side ref all the way up.

Lex Fridman (2:13:28.540)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:13:29.380)

So there's a time point

Lex Fridman (2:13:31.540)

when the middle guy has the flag all the way up.

Travis Stevens (2:13:33.700)

If not 80, 90% of the way there.

Lex Fridman (2:13:35.860)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (2:13:36.700)

Then the other one does.

Lex Fridman (2:13:37.860)

And then the third one goes.

Lex Fridman (2:13:40.460)

So now the question becomes who really,

Lex Fridman (2:13:44.740)

like did the outside refs really have an opinion?

Travis Stevens (2:13:47.260)

Or were they told to wait for the center one to start

Lex Fridman (2:13:54.460)

and then lift whatever flag the center ref picked?

Travis Stevens (2:13:59.420)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:14:00.260)

This is very unfortunate.

Travis Stevens (2:14:01.980)

It's very, honestly, it's very possible

Lex Fridman (2:14:03.700)

that they had this meeting.

Travis Stevens (2:14:05.020)

This is the problem with the Olympics.

Lex Fridman (2:14:09.980)

They sometimes, it's also the problem in the Soviet Union

Travis Stevens (2:14:13.500)

with communism.

Lex Fridman (2:14:14.340)

They think the committee knows what's good for the people

Lex Fridman (2:14:17.900)

and so on.

Lex Fridman (2:14:18.740)

So they decide universally

Travis Stevens (2:14:20.740)

as opposed to letting the magic of the Olympics

Lex Fridman (2:14:24.020)

be what it is.

Lex Fridman (2:14:25.380)

But nevertheless, in this case,

Lex Fridman (2:14:28.540)

the center ref decided blue.

Lex Fridman (2:14:31.220)

Like what do you think?

Lex Fridman (2:14:33.060)

Do you think it's just a shitty call?

Lex Fridman (2:14:34.820)

Or like?

Lex Fridman (2:14:36.580)

He has the right to pick.

Lex Fridman (2:14:38.420)

But the problem is the other two I don't think did.

Lex Fridman (2:14:43.420)

And so when you do this frame by frame again,

Travis Stevens (2:14:48.100)

I can see from my own perspective two of the refs.

Lex Fridman (2:14:54.300)

And I see them both blue.

Lex Fridman (2:14:55.900)

So when you fast forward that a little bit

Lex Fridman (2:14:59.380)

to get to all the flags, I see the two go blue.

Lex Fridman (2:15:03.060)

And I go, I look over and I look at the other guy

Lex Fridman (2:15:06.180)

and I'm like, really?

Lex Fridman (2:15:08.060)

All three?

Lex Fridman (2:15:10.700)

I fought for eight minutes and I can't even get a vote.

Travis Stevens (2:15:13.580)

I didn't even get a penalty.

Lex Fridman (2:15:15.820)

I can't even get a vote.

Lex Fridman (2:15:17.740)

And that's when I broke.

Lex Fridman (2:15:21.460)

I like, oh, I couldn't believe it.

Lex Fridman (2:15:25.980)

And I'm not gonna lie, he looked shocked.

Lex Fridman (2:15:32.660)

And here you're on your knees.

Travis Stevens (2:15:34.780)

You're crying.

Lex Fridman (2:15:35.620)

Literally crying.

Travis Stevens (2:15:36.700)

This is it.

Lex Fridman (2:15:37.540)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:15:38.380)

But I think it's the end.

Lex Fridman (2:15:39.220)

That was such an amazing match.

Travis Stevens (2:15:40.060)

It was such a war.

Lex Fridman (2:15:42.980)

I mean, both people can't believe what happened.

Travis Stevens (2:15:45.500)

I know.

Lex Fridman (2:15:46.340)

That's the, and like, honestly,

Travis Stevens (2:15:48.220)

I wish we had the rules that we do today,

Lex Fridman (2:15:50.700)

as far as the unlimited golden score,

Travis Stevens (2:15:53.020)

because I would have loved to have seen

Lex Fridman (2:15:56.420)

what would have happened.

Lex Fridman (2:15:57.580)

What was Jimmy saying here to you?

Lex Fridman (2:15:59.460)

I mean, I guess there's nothing to say.

Travis Stevens (2:16:03.260)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:16:04.100)

He was kind of apologizing for the way

Travis Stevens (2:16:06.980)

the scores went.

Lex Fridman (2:16:11.260)

Cause he knows how badly you want it.

Travis Stevens (2:16:13.220)

He saw the match.

Lex Fridman (2:16:14.660)

And he felt I deserved to win it.

Travis Stevens (2:16:16.940)

Based on like, you know, what happened.

Lex Fridman (2:16:19.260)

But he probably with all his experience

Travis Stevens (2:16:21.060)

knows that this is what the Olympics are about.

Lex Fridman (2:16:24.340)

The refs sometimes.

Travis Stevens (2:16:26.060)

I mean, that's the magic of it, man.

Lex Fridman (2:16:27.820)

Well, and at the same time we're at,

Travis Stevens (2:16:31.380)

we're in the Olympic semi final

Lex Fridman (2:16:34.100)

in a sport that's dominated by certain continents.

Lex Fridman (2:16:37.820)

And when you look at the three refs on the mat,

Lex Fridman (2:16:40.460)

they're all European.

Travis Stevens (2:16:42.860)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:16:43.700)

You're telling me there couldn't have been one Pan Am,

Travis Stevens (2:16:45.340)

one African, one Oceana, you know, different.

Lex Fridman (2:16:49.860)

Like, why'd they all have to be European?

Lex Fridman (2:16:51.380)

But to be fair, it's back to your sauna story.

Lex Fridman (2:16:55.620)

Correct.

Travis Stevens (2:16:56.460)

You've dealt with this stuff before.

Lex Fridman (2:16:57.700)

And you've won over this stuff before.

Lex Fridman (2:17:00.420)

And that's why, like, I was broken for life.

Lex Fridman (2:17:02.300)

And you thought you won here, that was.

Lex Fridman (2:17:05.380)

And when I hindered on that for a year and a half,

Lex Fridman (2:17:09.300)

like I couldn't even stand, I was done.

Lex Fridman (2:17:13.460)

But I'm pretty sure there's a slow motion replay

Lex Fridman (2:17:15.580)

on this when I watched it.

Travis Stevens (2:17:16.420)

Hey, he's all excited, that fucking guy.

Lex Fridman (2:17:19.740)

And he's all happy.

Travis Stevens (2:17:20.580)

It's a relief.

Lex Fridman (2:17:21.420)

Hey, hey, hi guys.

Travis Stevens (2:17:23.580)

I did it.

Lex Fridman (2:17:26.020)

Yeah, so here's like.

Travis Stevens (2:17:26.860)

Look at those teeth.

Lex Fridman (2:17:27.700)

My teeth are red.

Travis Stevens (2:17:29.140)

Slow motion replay of the flag being raised,

Lex Fridman (2:17:32.740)

the heart being broken, Travis just bending over.

Travis Stevens (2:17:35.060)

Right here, watch.

Lex Fridman (2:17:35.900)

Watch his reaction.

Travis Stevens (2:17:36.820)

Like, he, like, you could see his mouth, like,

Lex Fridman (2:17:39.380)

open in awe, like, really?

Lex Fridman (2:17:42.300)

And he's looking at two refs just like I am.

Lex Fridman (2:17:44.580)

He didn't celebrate until he looked at the third one

Lex Fridman (2:17:46.940)

and said, oh, all three.

Lex Fridman (2:17:49.100)

So you think he knew he lost?

Travis Stevens (2:17:50.580)

I think in his head, like,

Lex Fridman (2:17:53.220)

I don't think he really believed he was winning.

Travis Stevens (2:17:55.460)

He did enough to win, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:17:57.180)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (2:17:58.540)

Because when his mouth dropped, like,

Lex Fridman (2:18:02.500)

oh yeah, hey, all three.

Travis Stevens (2:18:03.860)

Like, that's not really the reaction you would give.

Lex Fridman (2:18:07.340)

Yeah, I mean, that was,

Travis Stevens (2:18:10.380)

that's one of the greatest matches I've ever seen.

Lex Fridman (2:18:12.700)

I mean, obviously it's painful for you,

Lex Fridman (2:18:14.300)

but that pain, first of all, sets the stage for 2016.

Lex Fridman (2:18:19.980)

But even without that,

Travis Stevens (2:18:21.740)

I think it was just a beautiful story at the Olympics.

Lex Fridman (2:18:25.380)

You've still did incredible job at that Olympics.

Travis Stevens (2:18:28.500)

You stood toe to toe.

Lex Fridman (2:18:30.220)

I think in hindsight, having lost that match

Travis Stevens (2:18:36.020)

did more for me and more for the sport.

Lex Fridman (2:18:39.460)

Yeah, absolutely.

Travis Stevens (2:18:40.380)

As a whole, me losing that match.

Lex Fridman (2:18:42.540)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (2:18:43.500)

I mean, stories aren't about winning.

Lex Fridman (2:18:46.020)

Stories are about the fighting.

Travis Stevens (2:18:47.940)

So, and that made one hell of a story.

Lex Fridman (2:18:50.100)

But it also has to do with, you know,

Travis Stevens (2:18:55.100)

you know, treachery is probably not the right word to use.

Lex Fridman (2:18:59.140)

It's probably the wrong word entirely to use.

Lex Fridman (2:19:02.460)

But because of the conflict in the match

Lex Fridman (2:19:06.540)

and because of how the refs handled the match there

Travis Stevens (2:19:09.860)

at the end, it created controversy

Lex Fridman (2:19:12.980)

that was spoken about for months on world media, right?

Travis Stevens (2:19:18.140)

I remember articles being written about the Olympics

Lex Fridman (2:19:21.220)

and, you know, the refing and how it was corrupt

Lex Fridman (2:19:24.100)

and that match was one of them.

Lex Fridman (2:19:26.940)

There was another one in fencing

Travis Stevens (2:19:28.500)

where like something happened with the timer

Lex Fridman (2:19:30.940)

where one of the fencers, I guess what happens in fencing,

Travis Stevens (2:19:35.180)

the timer resets up a second if it's down.

Lex Fridman (2:19:39.780)

So the fencer got one second played out,

Travis Stevens (2:19:42.580)

I think like 27 or 28 times and then one on like 30.

Lex Fridman (2:19:48.260)

So like there was like clock fixing for fencing.

Travis Stevens (2:19:51.420)

There was this match that I think just got publicity,

Lex Fridman (2:19:54.500)

good or bad.

Travis Stevens (2:19:55.620)

Publicity is publicity for judo.

Lex Fridman (2:19:58.500)

And then you came back to, I mean,

Travis Stevens (2:20:01.420)

this is the hard thing after this heartbreak

Lex Fridman (2:20:03.380)

to step up and continue fighting, right?

Travis Stevens (2:20:06.060)

I really, really struggled.

Lex Fridman (2:20:09.100)

Like unbelievably struggled from 2012 to like 2014.

Travis Stevens (2:20:14.380)

I almost quit numerous times.

Lex Fridman (2:20:16.100)

I was so angry.

Travis Stevens (2:20:17.940)

I mean, at one point I got so mad at the IGF

Lex Fridman (2:20:21.860)

feeling like they were fucking me every step of the way.

Travis Stevens (2:20:24.800)

I threw a water bottle at a referee after a match.

Lex Fridman (2:20:28.640)

I cussed out a referee one time on a mat.

Travis Stevens (2:20:30.620)

I got suspended from the sport

Lex Fridman (2:20:32.280)

because I was just so angry at that point in time.

Lex Fridman (2:20:36.040)

And IGF is the International Judo Federation

Lex Fridman (2:20:39.080)

and are they the people that supply the referees

Lex Fridman (2:20:41.620)

basically like the certification?

Lex Fridman (2:20:42.460)

They kind of run the sport on a global scale.

Lex Fridman (2:20:45.380)

So you sent a few emails 2014, 15, basically quitting.

Lex Fridman (2:20:54.420)

One of them said I'm mentally and physically broken.

Travis Stevens (2:20:57.220)

Another said, well, the subject line, I'm done.

Lex Fridman (2:21:00.960)

The weight cuts didn't break you.

Travis Stevens (2:21:02.720)

No.

Lex Fridman (2:21:05.700)

So if this broke you,

Travis Stevens (2:21:06.800)

you were really going through a hard time.

Lex Fridman (2:21:09.540)

I was like, you know what?

Travis Stevens (2:21:10.980)

We're just gonna like dumb it down a little bit

Lex Fridman (2:21:13.100)

and get some wins under our belt.

Travis Stevens (2:21:14.500)

I'm gonna go to a world cup,

Lex Fridman (2:21:16.300)

which is like three stages down or four stages down

Travis Stevens (2:21:20.080)

from like the Olympic games.

Lex Fridman (2:21:22.860)

Like this should be like a cake walk.

Travis Stevens (2:21:24.540)

Like making the final of a world cup

Lex Fridman (2:21:26.100)

should be a walk in the park.

Travis Stevens (2:21:28.700)

I show up.

Lex Fridman (2:21:30.260)

I barely beat a 16 year old kid, barely.

Travis Stevens (2:21:35.840)

Then I got smoked in the second round.

Lex Fridman (2:21:37.820)

I got thrown three times.

Travis Stevens (2:21:40.240)

I was like, I'm fucking done.

Lex Fridman (2:21:42.420)

They changed all the fucking rules.

Travis Stevens (2:21:44.340)

They fucked me out of the Olympics.

Lex Fridman (2:21:46.060)

Like, what am I supposed to do?

Lex Fridman (2:21:49.540)

And it was at that moment when I wrote the email

Lex Fridman (2:21:52.500)

where I remember sitting at a bar,

Travis Stevens (2:21:55.520)

I don't drink by the way,

Lex Fridman (2:21:56.360)

but I was sitting at a bar at the hotel sending this email

Lex Fridman (2:22:01.840)

and I got a response back from Jimmy and he goes,

Lex Fridman (2:22:04.300)

well, just stay for the training camp,

Travis Stevens (2:22:07.540)

go to Germany and then whatever happens,

Lex Fridman (2:22:09.880)

don't worry about it.

Travis Stevens (2:22:10.720)

We'll talk when you get home.

Lex Fridman (2:22:12.380)

I was like, fuck that, fuck these people, fuck the rules.

Travis Stevens (2:22:16.060)

I don't fucking care anymore.

Lex Fridman (2:22:17.260)

I'm just gonna do judo the way I wanna do judo.

Travis Stevens (2:22:19.540)

If I fucking get shit out, fuck them.

Lex Fridman (2:22:22.900)

That was my response.

Lex Fridman (2:22:24.860)

Can you become an Olympic champion?

Lex Fridman (2:22:26.860)

Can you become an Olympic medalist?

Lex Fridman (2:22:28.460)

With that kind of thinking, you think or no?

Lex Fridman (2:22:30.060)

Was that, that's counterproductive?

Travis Stevens (2:22:32.220)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:22:33.060)

Okay, just checking because maybe that's also liberating.

Travis Stevens (2:22:37.700)

The expectation was no longer

Lex Fridman (2:22:39.440)

that Travis is gonna win this tournament.

Travis Stevens (2:22:41.220)

The expectation was Travis is gonna come home

Lex Fridman (2:22:43.780)

and be fucking pissed off

Lex Fridman (2:22:44.740)

and we're gonna have to figure out

Lex Fridman (2:22:45.660)

how to manage a pissed off person that's trying to quit

Travis Stevens (2:22:49.200)

that shouldn't be quitting.

Lex Fridman (2:22:50.860)

And did people still believe

Lex Fridman (2:22:52.620)

that you can be a medalist again?

Lex Fridman (2:22:54.340)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:22:55.180)

Like who believed that?

Lex Fridman (2:22:56.020)

Jimmy believed it, the team managers believed it,

Travis Stevens (2:22:58.780)

some of my teammates still believed it,

Lex Fridman (2:23:01.700)

my training partners still did,

Lex Fridman (2:23:03.620)

but they're not the ones that are cutting the weight,

Lex Fridman (2:23:06.860)

flying around, feeling like all of your Judo

Lex Fridman (2:23:11.620)

is now null and void, right?

Lex Fridman (2:23:12.940)

Because at this point, they took away leg grabs entirely.

Lex Fridman (2:23:17.020)

You couldn't break a grip with two hands, right?

Lex Fridman (2:23:20.100)

The meta of Judo has changed again, right?

Lex Fridman (2:23:23.660)

So I got fucked out of it.

Lex Fridman (2:23:26.060)

They took away how I did Judo again

Lex Fridman (2:23:28.200)

and now it's just got more difficult.

Lex Fridman (2:23:30.780)

So when I'm sitting in the hotel and I'm sending this email,

Travis Stevens (2:23:34.760)

I remember being at the training camp,

Lex Fridman (2:23:37.060)

I was like, I don't even fucking care what the rules are,

Travis Stevens (2:23:40.300)

I'm just gonna fucking throw people,

Lex Fridman (2:23:41.860)

I don't even care if I'm cheating,

Lex Fridman (2:23:43.380)

doesn't matter to me, I'll just play stupid, right?

Lex Fridman (2:23:46.600)

So I just started going back and doing Judo

Travis Stevens (2:23:48.660)

without the leg grabs,

Lex Fridman (2:23:50.080)

but with all the same gripping that I was doing beforehand.

Lex Fridman (2:23:54.420)

And then when I got to Germany,

Lex Fridman (2:23:56.340)

I was like, I don't fucking care.

Travis Stevens (2:23:58.620)

I was like, if I gotta cheat to win,

Lex Fridman (2:24:00.820)

then I gotta fucking cheat to win.

Travis Stevens (2:24:03.060)

If I get sheeted out, then I get sheeted out

Lex Fridman (2:24:06.220)

and I won Germany.

Lex Fridman (2:24:09.380)

Which event in Germany?

Lex Fridman (2:24:10.980)

The German Grand Prix, which was a week

Travis Stevens (2:24:14.140)

after losing the World Cup.

Lex Fridman (2:24:16.140)

Because I was trying to do Judo around the new rule set.

Lex Fridman (2:24:20.340)

I wasn't just trying to do Judo, right?

Lex Fridman (2:24:23.240)

Because when you get to the highest level,

Travis Stevens (2:24:25.820)

your game tends to morph around

Lex Fridman (2:24:28.620)

what can you can or cannot get away with.

Travis Stevens (2:24:33.020)

I was more focused on trying to figure out

Lex Fridman (2:24:35.200)

what I can and can't get away with

Lex Fridman (2:24:37.020)

and I stopped actively doing Judo.

Lex Fridman (2:24:40.060)

Once I said, fuck whatever the rule changes are,

Travis Stevens (2:24:42.580)

I'm just gonna keep doing Judo

Lex Fridman (2:24:43.780)

the way I know how to do Judo

Lex Fridman (2:24:45.340)

and if I get a penalty, then so be it.

Lex Fridman (2:24:48.260)

And so that win, that started the road back.

Travis Stevens (2:24:51.780)

The road back, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:24:54.380)

Cause now it's like, I don't care if you penalize me or not

Travis Stevens (2:24:57.900)

because I'm gonna throw that guy anyways.

Lex Fridman (2:25:00.820)

I'm gonna beat him anyways.

Lex Fridman (2:25:02.460)

And if I get a Shido for doing something wrong,

Lex Fridman (2:25:05.340)

then I'll just stop doing that one thing

Lex Fridman (2:25:07.620)

and just keep doing all the other things

Lex Fridman (2:25:09.080)

that they told me I probably shouldn't be doing

Lex Fridman (2:25:10.740)

but they're not calling me on it

Lex Fridman (2:25:11.820)

so I'm just gonna keep doing it.

Travis Stevens (2:25:15.160)

Well, you found yourself at the 2016 Olympics.

Lex Fridman (2:25:21.620)

Was that ever a doubt, by the way,

Lex Fridman (2:25:23.140)

after this, after 2014 in Germany?

Lex Fridman (2:25:27.020)

I had a lot of doubt after the concussion in 2015.

Travis Stevens (2:25:31.820)

I remember when I first came back

Lex Fridman (2:25:34.780)

after four months of nothingness

Travis Stevens (2:25:37.820)

that even trying to train,

Lex Fridman (2:25:41.500)

the room would start to tilt the world on me.

Lex Fridman (2:25:44.660)

And then when I finally got over that

Lex Fridman (2:25:46.300)

and I could start doing things again,

Travis Stevens (2:25:47.660)

I stepped on the mat for the Pan Ams

Lex Fridman (2:25:50.340)

and I was like, drowning's not the right word

Lex Fridman (2:25:54.180)

but everything was being done in such a slow motion.

Lex Fridman (2:25:57.500)

I had sandbags everywhere that I just couldn't keep up.

Travis Stevens (2:26:02.820)

Like mental fog.

Lex Fridman (2:26:04.400)

Yeah, I remember fighting the Brazilian

Travis Stevens (2:26:08.020)

in the semifinal of Pan Ams.

Lex Fridman (2:26:10.540)

I was halfway through this match

Lex Fridman (2:26:12.020)

and I'm just like, eyes roll up,

Lex Fridman (2:26:14.460)

I'm like, I'm just gonna fucking wing it.

Lex Fridman (2:26:16.340)

And I just fucking winged it

Lex Fridman (2:26:17.180)

and I got countered and thrown free pwn

Lex Fridman (2:26:18.900)

and I was like, I don't even know what to do.

Lex Fridman (2:26:21.900)

And I couldn't even think clearly.

Lex Fridman (2:26:24.380)

And that's when I was like, I may not come back.

Lex Fridman (2:26:27.460)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (2:26:28.300)

You don't have control over how to come back from this.

Lex Fridman (2:26:30.340)

It's like, it's just your mind

Lex Fridman (2:26:31.580)

and it's not operating correctly.

Lex Fridman (2:26:33.740)

It's not like I can like,

Travis Stevens (2:26:35.020)

oh, my right hand's not working because it's fractured.

Lex Fridman (2:26:37.740)

Let me figure out a way I can not use that.

Travis Stevens (2:26:39.340)

Like when your mind's not working,

Lex Fridman (2:26:40.700)

like it's the one thing you need.

Travis Stevens (2:26:44.300)

Like you gotta have it.

Lex Fridman (2:26:45.740)

So I can work through anything else.

Travis Stevens (2:26:47.460)

I needed that though.

Lex Fridman (2:26:49.140)

And so how did you come back from that time?

Travis Stevens (2:26:51.420)

That's when I wrote another email and I was like,

Lex Fridman (2:26:53.460)

I'm fucking off team USA.

Travis Stevens (2:26:55.020)

I'm not fucking, I'm all done with USA judo.

Lex Fridman (2:26:57.460)

I'm done with the tour.

Travis Stevens (2:26:58.580)

I was like, I quit.

Lex Fridman (2:27:00.100)

Well, I'm gonna go do my own thing.

Travis Stevens (2:27:01.900)

They were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Lex Fridman (2:27:03.540)

Can't quit now.

Travis Stevens (2:27:04.740)

Olympics is in like a year.

Lex Fridman (2:27:05.980)

Like let's talk about this again

Travis Stevens (2:27:07.300)

cause it's the second time I've tried to quit

Lex Fridman (2:27:08.900)

in like two years.

Lex Fridman (2:27:10.260)

Right?

Lex Fridman (2:27:12.380)

So then we sit down in Jimmy's office and he's like,

Travis Stevens (2:27:14.940)

whoa, whoa, whoa, you can't quit.

Lex Fridman (2:27:16.740)

You're gonna kick yourself if you don't go to Rio.

Travis Stevens (2:27:19.300)

I'm telling you right now, don't do that to yourself.

Lex Fridman (2:27:22.180)

Let's figure out a way of like doing this.

Lex Fridman (2:27:23.860)

And I was like, because when we trained before,

Lex Fridman (2:27:27.060)

we did it as a unit, right?

Travis Stevens (2:27:29.140)

We all went to the same tournaments.

Lex Fridman (2:27:30.540)

We all went to the same training camps.

Lex Fridman (2:27:31.980)

And I'm like, you guys are treating me

Lex Fridman (2:27:33.860)

like I'm the same player I used to be.

Travis Stevens (2:27:36.100)

I go, I don't, I'm not operating

Lex Fridman (2:27:38.420)

at the level you think I'm operating at.

Travis Stevens (2:27:40.100)

I go, I can't do that.

Lex Fridman (2:27:41.500)

And he goes, well, what do you wanna do?

Lex Fridman (2:27:43.860)

And I go, I'll tell you what Jimmy,

Lex Fridman (2:27:45.380)

you know I'm being serious because my answer

Travis Stevens (2:27:47.820)

is something you'd never would have expected.

Lex Fridman (2:27:49.700)

I go, why don't you just send me to Japan for three weeks?

Lex Fridman (2:27:52.620)

And he was like, really?

Lex Fridman (2:27:54.620)

I hated Japan.

Travis Stevens (2:27:55.980)

I refused to go there up until this point.

Lex Fridman (2:27:59.340)

But I was like, I have to get to a point

Travis Stevens (2:28:01.580)

where I can get so tired and get through it

Lex Fridman (2:28:05.780)

that like my Judo will come back

Lex Fridman (2:28:07.980)

and my body will learn again.

Lex Fridman (2:28:10.460)

And when you say Japan, you mean the Kodokan,

Lex Fridman (2:28:12.540)

like what's Tokai, is that the highest level of Judo?

Lex Fridman (2:28:16.900)

It's one of the top colleges in the world, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:28:18.860)

And that's so you can go with the best people in the world.

Lex Fridman (2:28:21.340)

You can go to war with them.

Travis Stevens (2:28:22.700)

Top level, like strong players.

Lex Fridman (2:28:24.620)

Yeah, there's a lot of very strong players.

Travis Stevens (2:28:27.220)

There's a lot of middle class players

Lex Fridman (2:28:29.540)

and there's a lot of volume of rounds.

Lex Fridman (2:28:32.100)

So you value all of it, the middle class too, like the.

Lex Fridman (2:28:35.100)

Because when you're tired, like you can't just train

Travis Stevens (2:28:37.620)

in areas where you're battling for every inch.

Lex Fridman (2:28:41.700)

At some point you have to be successful, right?

Lex Fridman (2:28:46.020)

So you still under duress and under strain

Lex Fridman (2:28:48.980)

and through exhaustion,

Travis Stevens (2:28:51.100)

you still have to have the ability to score.

Lex Fridman (2:28:53.740)

Well, if you're training with the best people

Travis Stevens (2:28:55.180)

in the world all the time,

Lex Fridman (2:28:56.060)

you're not always gonna be able to score.

Lex Fridman (2:28:58.180)

So you still need those B level players

Lex Fridman (2:29:00.300)

in order to really develop again.

Lex Fridman (2:29:03.820)

What is it like, if you can comment briefly

Lex Fridman (2:29:06.100)

on the training in Japan,

Lex Fridman (2:29:08.740)

what's it like to go into a different place?

Lex Fridman (2:29:11.700)

You probably don't speak the language that well.

Lex Fridman (2:29:14.060)

Like, is there an isolation aspect to it?

Lex Fridman (2:29:17.020)

Is it like purely about judo now?

Travis Stevens (2:29:19.940)

I really want it to be isolated.

Lex Fridman (2:29:22.020)

No training partners, no coaches.

Travis Stevens (2:29:24.700)

I want it to get back to my roots

Lex Fridman (2:29:26.980)

and just learn how to fight again.

Travis Stevens (2:29:30.220)

I don't wanna figure out how to beat the German.

Lex Fridman (2:29:32.460)

I don't wanna figure out how I can develop a new entry

Travis Stevens (2:29:37.340)

into my sale against, you know, whoever it may be.

Lex Fridman (2:29:41.300)

It's not.

Travis Stevens (2:29:42.140)

You just wanna fight hard.

Lex Fridman (2:29:42.980)

You just wanna fight.

Travis Stevens (2:29:44.100)

Let me get back to fighting.

Lex Fridman (2:29:45.260)

Let me get back to like the root of who I am.

Lex Fridman (2:29:48.580)

What were those sessions like?

Lex Fridman (2:29:49.900)

What were we talking about?

Lex Fridman (2:29:51.020)

Five minute rounds?

Lex Fridman (2:29:51.940)

Like what, how many?

Travis Stevens (2:29:53.260)

Six minute rounds, 30 minute breaks,

Lex Fridman (2:29:55.580)

14 rounds a session.

Lex Fridman (2:29:58.860)

Sorry, what's the 30 minute break?

Lex Fridman (2:30:00.260)

30 second break.

Travis Stevens (2:30:01.540)

30 second break.

Lex Fridman (2:30:02.380)

30 second break.

Lex Fridman (2:30:04.780)

Sorry, what?

Lex Fridman (2:30:05.620)

14?

Travis Stevens (2:30:06.460)

14 rounds.

Lex Fridman (2:30:07.300)

14 rounds.

Lex Fridman (2:30:08.180)

Every day?

Lex Fridman (2:30:09.580)

Every day.

Travis Stevens (2:30:10.580)

Like five days a week

Lex Fridman (2:30:13.460)

and then 11 or 12 rounds on Saturday.

Travis Stevens (2:30:17.300)

Plus weightlifting, plus running.

Lex Fridman (2:30:19.740)

Plus weightlifting, plus running.

Lex Fridman (2:30:21.540)

So those are hard rounds.

Lex Fridman (2:30:23.580)

What's it feel like to go through that?

Lex Fridman (2:30:25.340)

So you have a bunch of just a sea of black belts, Japan.

Lex Fridman (2:30:31.420)

I'm sure they're hunting you a little bit.

Travis Stevens (2:30:33.720)

Depending on who you are.

Lex Fridman (2:30:35.320)

I was hunted a little bit.

Travis Stevens (2:30:36.520)

Like I didn't really struggle because of who I am.

Lex Fridman (2:30:39.700)

Them as college athletes,

Travis Stevens (2:30:41.740)

they wanna show to their coaches

Lex Fridman (2:30:44.180)

and their higher players,

Travis Stevens (2:30:46.300)

like, oh look, I can throw the world number whoever.

Lex Fridman (2:30:50.080)

But if you're just a guy who shows up,

Travis Stevens (2:30:52.180)

like them beating you doesn't provide any value

Lex Fridman (2:30:55.980)

or raise their status.

Travis Stevens (2:30:57.180)

No, but you're status raising.

Lex Fridman (2:30:59.740)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (2:31:00.940)

So I was actually like in a situation

Lex Fridman (2:31:04.340)

where nobody was watching me

Lex Fridman (2:31:06.540)

and I was free to just battle at my own will.

Lex Fridman (2:31:09.180)

Okay.

Travis Stevens (2:31:10.200)

Which is what it was about for me.

Lex Fridman (2:31:12.500)

And you just push yourself.

Travis Stevens (2:31:14.300)

Because I knew how to do that.

Lex Fridman (2:31:15.600)

I know how to push myself.

Travis Stevens (2:31:17.900)

Are you, when you're doing these 14 rounds,

Lex Fridman (2:31:19.900)

is every single one a standalone thing for you?

Travis Stevens (2:31:23.500)

Yep.

Lex Fridman (2:31:24.340)

So you're not trying to pace yourself?

Travis Stevens (2:31:25.700)

No.

Lex Fridman (2:31:26.740)

Each one is to as much exhaustion as I can get.

Lex Fridman (2:31:29.580)

But then there must be ones where like it's like round nine

Lex Fridman (2:31:33.160)

where you got nothing left.

Travis Stevens (2:31:35.020)

Better figure out how to score.

Lex Fridman (2:31:36.700)

That's all you gotta do.

Travis Stevens (2:31:38.200)

You gotta survive and you gotta score.

Lex Fridman (2:31:41.540)

What's your memories of that, of those three weeks?

Lex Fridman (2:31:44.300)

What's like, what stands out to you?

Lex Fridman (2:31:46.700)

It seems like,

Travis Stevens (2:31:48.580)

cause that's the place where you found the silver medal.

Lex Fridman (2:31:51.060)

Yep.

Travis Stevens (2:31:53.460)

Because it's the place most people don't want to be.

Lex Fridman (2:31:57.480)

Everybody's comfortable.

Travis Stevens (2:31:59.300)

I would rather,

Lex Fridman (2:32:01.260)

I would rather find out who I am and what I'm made of

Lex Fridman (2:32:03.860)

and find those, those end points.

Lex Fridman (2:32:06.280)

And if I can't find them,

Travis Stevens (2:32:08.340)

then that means everybody else has given up before me.

Lex Fridman (2:32:14.280)

Were there a few people that just kinda,

Travis Stevens (2:32:16.980)

you returned to battle over and over in those times

Lex Fridman (2:32:19.940)

and then it was just.

Travis Stevens (2:32:21.580)

Yep.

Lex Fridman (2:32:24.100)

No social media.

Travis Stevens (2:32:25.800)

Nope.

Lex Fridman (2:32:26.640)

None of that, it's just like two men.

Travis Stevens (2:32:28.580)

You lock yourself in your room,

Lex Fridman (2:32:30.140)

you come back, you've thought about it

Lex Fridman (2:32:32.540)

and you come back with a game plan for that day.

Lex Fridman (2:32:35.400)

Against some players here or there

Lex Fridman (2:32:37.540)

and I would, I would develop a hit list.

Lex Fridman (2:32:40.780)

Like I would be like,

Travis Stevens (2:32:41.740)

oh, that motherfucker grabbed me at like 13

Lex Fridman (2:32:44.540)

and I watched him sit fucking four rounds

Lex Fridman (2:32:46.400)

and then come try to kick the shit out of me.

Lex Fridman (2:32:48.220)

I'm gonna fucking grab that guy early

Lex Fridman (2:32:49.520)

and I'm gonna beat the shit out of him.

Lex Fridman (2:32:51.580)

And you just develop that list.

Lex Fridman (2:32:53.180)

There's probably some epic battles in that room, right?

Lex Fridman (2:32:55.540)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:32:57.780)

What's it look like?

Lex Fridman (2:32:58.660)

Like how crowded is it?

Travis Stevens (2:33:00.020)

Very.

Lex Fridman (2:33:01.020)

And so you're just like, yeah.

Travis Stevens (2:33:02.980)

Just sea of people.

Lex Fridman (2:33:04.040)

Sea of people.

Lex Fridman (2:33:05.100)

And you're trying to,

Lex Fridman (2:33:05.940)

are you doing groundwork at all?

Travis Stevens (2:33:06.900)

Just throws.

Lex Fridman (2:33:07.740)

Just throws.

Travis Stevens (2:33:08.580)

Just throws.

Lex Fridman (2:33:09.400)

No transitions, no nothing.

Lex Fridman (2:33:10.240)

But if I get pissed off and like you keep dropping

Lex Fridman (2:33:12.180)

or like not letting me do what I wanna do,

Travis Stevens (2:33:14.140)

I'll rip a choke right across your face.

Lex Fridman (2:33:16.020)

Just to let you know that like,

Lex Fridman (2:33:18.100)

and if I wanted to.

Lex Fridman (2:33:18.940)

You have a really nice style of just like

Travis Stevens (2:33:22.900)

respectfully bullying the shit out of people.

Lex Fridman (2:33:26.740)

Cause some people call me a bully

Lex Fridman (2:33:28.240)

and I have to remind them that like

Lex Fridman (2:33:31.100)

a bully enjoys like beating up the weak.

Travis Stevens (2:33:34.660)

Right.

Lex Fridman (2:33:35.500)

I wanna beat the person that fights back.

Travis Stevens (2:33:38.020)

Right, exactly.

Lex Fridman (2:33:38.860)

It's not fun for me if you don't fight back.

Travis Stevens (2:33:40.940)

Right.

Lex Fridman (2:33:41.780)

Some of the greatest people I've seen like do this,

Travis Stevens (2:33:44.600)

they basically,

Lex Fridman (2:33:46.620)

you have this in the Iowa wrestling rooms,

Travis Stevens (2:33:48.600)

they'll push each other into the wall.

Lex Fridman (2:33:49.900)

Like they get, there's like anger,

Lex Fridman (2:33:51.680)

but it's ultimately underneath it all.

Lex Fridman (2:33:53.580)

It's like a deep respect.

Travis Stevens (2:33:55.180)

I was training with Colton Brown one time

Lex Fridman (2:33:57.380)

and I went to San Jose State

Travis Stevens (2:33:58.880)

cause I was in California for something.

Lex Fridman (2:34:01.420)

And he kept like,

Travis Stevens (2:34:02.540)

he kept circling to the edge.

Lex Fridman (2:34:04.540)

They had like a cupboard that had like,

Travis Stevens (2:34:06.540)

when you opened it,

Lex Fridman (2:34:07.440)

it had like all the tape and like medical supplies.

Travis Stevens (2:34:09.460)

I was like, we'll fucking put you right through that.

Lex Fridman (2:34:11.860)

And he kind of giggled.

Lex Fridman (2:34:13.620)

And then he went by that edge

Lex Fridman (2:34:14.540)

and I fucking ran him right through it.

Travis Stevens (2:34:15.780)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:34:16.620)

See, to me, that's an ultimate sign of respect

Travis Stevens (2:34:19.020)

that both you and Colton will remember well.

Lex Fridman (2:34:21.780)

And we're still friends.

Travis Stevens (2:34:22.780)

We still talk.

Lex Fridman (2:34:23.620)

It's just, I told him I was gonna do it.

Travis Stevens (2:34:24.780)

He knew I meant it too.

Lex Fridman (2:34:25.900)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (2:34:26.740)

He did it anyways.

Lex Fridman (2:34:27.800)

That just tested me.

Travis Stevens (2:34:31.820)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:34:32.980)

Listen, that's,

Lex Fridman (2:34:33.980)

and that same attitude was,

Lex Fridman (2:34:35.900)

that was in Japan just day after day after day after day.

Travis Stevens (2:34:39.580)

14 rounds.

Lex Fridman (2:34:40.660)

That's rough.

Lex Fridman (2:34:42.060)

And you didn't sit out rounds?

Lex Fridman (2:34:44.260)

And I did it all with a broken hand.

Lex Fridman (2:34:47.940)

How?

Lex Fridman (2:34:50.540)

How did you do it with a broken hand?

Travis Stevens (2:34:52.420)

You show up every day.

Lex Fridman (2:34:53.700)

You show up.

Travis Stevens (2:34:54.540)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (2:34:55.380)

Which one, left or right?

Travis Stevens (2:34:56.280)

My right.

Lex Fridman (2:34:57.580)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (2:34:58.420)

So that's okay.

Lex Fridman (2:34:59.240)

So you can then focus on gripping with your left.

Travis Stevens (2:35:01.500)

It's always a way.

Lex Fridman (2:35:02.740)

It's always a way.

Lex Fridman (2:35:04.020)

But that means you can't,

Lex Fridman (2:35:04.900)

I guess you don't have to grip with your right sometimes.

Travis Stevens (2:35:07.020)

I would palm it with my thumb just like hanging out

Lex Fridman (2:35:10.260)

like this, just like this.

Lex Fridman (2:35:11.460)

So you can do something.

Lex Fridman (2:35:12.660)

So you can do like a Goshi,

Travis Stevens (2:35:14.020)

cause you have a,

Lex Fridman (2:35:16.020)

cause I,

Lex Fridman (2:35:16.860)

what were your main throws?

Lex Fridman (2:35:17.740)

It was Seinagi.

Travis Stevens (2:35:19.020)

Koshiguruma.

Lex Fridman (2:35:20.460)

Okay.

Travis Stevens (2:35:21.300)

Sumi.

Lex Fridman (2:35:22.140)

Uchimata.

Travis Stevens (2:35:22.960)

Uchimata.

Lex Fridman (2:35:23.800)

But you have this big like a Goshi type of thing.

Travis Stevens (2:35:27.760)

Like a.

Lex Fridman (2:35:28.600)

Yeah, but not from like around the waist.

Travis Stevens (2:35:30.660)

It's from over the shoulder.

Lex Fridman (2:35:32.140)

Over the shoulder.

Lex Fridman (2:35:32.980)

And I can do it with just the one hand.

Lex Fridman (2:35:35.420)

Oh, sorry, which one hand?

Travis Stevens (2:35:36.920)

The right one.

Lex Fridman (2:35:38.140)

I don't need the sleeve hand.

Travis Stevens (2:35:39.660)

You don't need the sleeve hand,

Lex Fridman (2:35:40.600)

but you couldn't do it with the broken hand.

Travis Stevens (2:35:42.820)

I could.

Lex Fridman (2:35:44.340)

Cause I can just put my hand in the gi

Lex Fridman (2:35:45.820)

so it can't come off.

Lex Fridman (2:35:48.020)

And then you just,

Travis Stevens (2:35:50.380)

cause what happened was three days

Lex Fridman (2:35:52.460)

before I was leaving for Japan,

Travis Stevens (2:35:53.980)

a guy, my hand was rested like this on a mat

Lex Fridman (2:35:57.060)

and the guy, boom, took my whole thumb off

Lex Fridman (2:35:59.740)

and tore all the tendons in the palm.

Lex Fridman (2:36:02.400)

So when I went to the doctor, he was like,

Lex Fridman (2:36:05.100)

you know, do we have to put a cast on it?

Lex Fridman (2:36:06.900)

And I go, I'm leaving in three days.

Travis Stevens (2:36:08.380)

You're not putting a cast on it.

Lex Fridman (2:36:10.220)

And I go, this is what I want you to do.

Travis Stevens (2:36:11.820)

Just like this, I said,

Lex Fridman (2:36:12.820)

I want you to build a cast that holds it,

Travis Stevens (2:36:16.220)

that Velcros around so that when I'm not training,

Lex Fridman (2:36:19.820)

I can wear it.

Lex Fridman (2:36:21.180)

But then when I'm training,

Lex Fridman (2:36:22.780)

I'll take it off and then I'll put the tape on it.

Lex Fridman (2:36:25.140)

And then whatever happens, happens.

Lex Fridman (2:36:26.940)

Whatever happens, happens.

Travis Stevens (2:36:31.360)

All right, so that's Epic.

Lex Fridman (2:36:33.160)

And that led you to the 2016 Olympics in Rio.

Travis Stevens (2:36:37.260)

Well, that led me to winning Pan Am Gold

Lex Fridman (2:36:39.720)

when I got back from Japan

Lex Fridman (2:36:41.280)

and then almost getting my leg cut off in 2015.

Lex Fridman (2:36:45.740)

That was like, I don't know, maybe a month or two later.

Travis Stevens (2:36:49.400)

I was hospitalized for seven days.

Lex Fridman (2:36:51.680)

The leg being cut off for what?

Travis Stevens (2:36:53.560)

I had three different types of bacterial infections

Lex Fridman (2:36:56.120)

in my right leg, a whole leg swelled.

Lex Fridman (2:36:59.200)

And it was in my blood, skin and in my bone,

Lex Fridman (2:37:04.160)

in my right leg.

Lex Fridman (2:37:08.960)

So I got stuck at MGH in a hospital for seven days

Lex Fridman (2:37:11.920)

until they figured out what the bacteria source was.

Lex Fridman (2:37:15.920)

Where was the source of the infection?

Lex Fridman (2:37:17.720)

Is it in the knee?

Lex Fridman (2:37:19.000)

In the knee?

Lex Fridman (2:37:19.840)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (2:37:20.680)

Okay, so obviously there's a danger of like,

Lex Fridman (2:37:23.400)

that's life threatening.

Travis Stevens (2:37:24.600)

Yep, so when I went into the emergency room,

Lex Fridman (2:37:26.920)

when I got back from the Worlds,

Travis Stevens (2:37:28.640)

the lady was like, hey, you need to call,

Lex Fridman (2:37:30.880)

you're gonna call because you may lose your leg tonight.

Lex Fridman (2:37:34.120)

And then they put me in the hospital.

Lex Fridman (2:37:36.000)

What do you think of this whole time?

Lex Fridman (2:37:38.200)

Are you still thinking about Olympics?

Lex Fridman (2:37:40.400)

They put me into the room like four hours later,

Travis Stevens (2:37:43.520)

the doctor came in.

Lex Fridman (2:37:46.620)

I was at MGH in Boston and he was like,

Travis Stevens (2:37:50.840)

you have a serious infection in your leg.

Lex Fridman (2:37:53.040)

I go, he's like, we have to keep you hospitalized

Travis Stevens (2:37:56.080)

until we can figure out what it is.

Lex Fridman (2:37:57.320)

And I was like, buddy,

Travis Stevens (2:37:59.520)

I have the Olympic games in less than a year.

Lex Fridman (2:38:01.320)

I go, I don't give a fuck what it is.

Travis Stevens (2:38:03.560)

I go, just fucking take it out

Lex Fridman (2:38:05.640)

and let me get on with my day.

Travis Stevens (2:38:06.800)

He goes, we can't do that.

Lex Fridman (2:38:08.960)

Like, I don't understand.

Travis Stevens (2:38:10.580)

I go, you told me it's infected,

Lex Fridman (2:38:12.240)

just cut away that part of the tissue,

Travis Stevens (2:38:14.580)

drain it, do whatever you gotta do

Lex Fridman (2:38:16.000)

and then send me on my way.

Travis Stevens (2:38:17.360)

He's like, it doesn't work like that.

Lex Fridman (2:38:18.960)

He said, until we figure out what it is,

Travis Stevens (2:38:20.640)

we can't figure out how to stop it from growing

Lex Fridman (2:38:22.840)

or how far it spread.

Lex Fridman (2:38:24.360)

So it took them seven days to figure out what it was.

Lex Fridman (2:38:27.640)

Then once they figured out what it was,

Travis Stevens (2:38:29.480)

I went in for surgery to remove it.

Lex Fridman (2:38:32.480)

Then I spent, I think it was eight weeks

Travis Stevens (2:38:35.600)

in home care with a PICC line.

Lex Fridman (2:38:39.320)

And then I came back from that.

Travis Stevens (2:38:41.600)

On the first week and a half of judo,

Lex Fridman (2:38:43.360)

I tore my SI joint trying to throw a guy.

Lex Fridman (2:38:46.820)

And then I came back from that about a month later

Lex Fridman (2:38:49.920)

and then fifth at the Connell Cup.

Lex Fridman (2:38:52.420)

And then the games six months later.

Lex Fridman (2:38:54.280)

How quickly do doctors understand who they're dealing with?

Travis Stevens (2:38:57.880)

Like, is that difficult for you to explain

Lex Fridman (2:38:59.920)

who Travis Stevens is when you go to visit a doctor?

Travis Stevens (2:39:02.760)

I don't think they understand, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:39:07.120)

their role is to get me to do my job

Travis Stevens (2:39:10.600)

to the best of their ability as a doctor.

Lex Fridman (2:39:13.840)

Meaning, it's gonna be less than what they want.

Lex Fridman (2:39:16.240)

And they struggle conceptually with like,

Lex Fridman (2:39:23.880)

but the textbook tells me this.

Lex Fridman (2:39:26.280)

And I go, but I'm not a textbook, right?

Lex Fridman (2:39:28.760)

Like when you go to physical therapy,

Travis Stevens (2:39:30.460)

the first thing they do is they pull out that binder

Lex Fridman (2:39:32.600)

that says day one, we do this exercise.

Travis Stevens (2:39:35.500)

I go, but I have my own goals.

Lex Fridman (2:39:38.720)

Your job is to help me meet my goal.

Travis Stevens (2:39:41.320)

Let's work a plan to do that

Lex Fridman (2:39:43.160)

or I gotta go find somebody else.

Travis Stevens (2:39:44.960)

Did the doctors in general,

Lex Fridman (2:39:47.120)

people outside of your close knit group step up?

Travis Stevens (2:39:50.120)

If they didn't, I found somebody else.

Lex Fridman (2:39:52.860)

And typically I could find a person

Travis Stevens (2:39:55.740)

who knew the right person.

Lex Fridman (2:39:58.760)

I always wonder with people like,

Travis Stevens (2:40:00.240)

cause I'm constantly surrounded by,

Lex Fridman (2:40:02.800)

one of the biggest problems in my life has been,

Travis Stevens (2:40:04.800)

there's a lot of people in my life who love me very much,

Lex Fridman (2:40:07.960)

but who want me to the equivalent of that situation.

Travis Stevens (2:40:12.280)

You know, definitely don't go to the Olympics

Lex Fridman (2:40:14.600)

and definitely like,

Travis Stevens (2:40:16.120)

it seems like the world is full of people

Lex Fridman (2:40:18.080)

that want you to be average and happy, which is great,

Travis Stevens (2:40:22.240)

which is fine.

Lex Fridman (2:40:23.080)

I mean, perhaps that's the way it should be.

Travis Stevens (2:40:25.640)

Like, you know, my parents, people close to you,

Lex Fridman (2:40:27.680)

that's what love, how love manifests itself often in people.

Lex Fridman (2:40:31.800)

But then like, I think the ultimate manifestation of love

Lex Fridman (2:40:35.220)

is understanding who this person is.

Travis Stevens (2:40:37.220)

Here's a madman who's driven towards a particular thing.

Lex Fridman (2:40:40.400)

And the best thing for you to do is not to say,

Travis Stevens (2:40:43.640)

like rest is to say, work harder.

Lex Fridman (2:40:49.520)

Like fuck your infection.

Travis Stevens (2:40:52.720)

You should be training.

Lex Fridman (2:40:55.040)

Have you ever met anybody as crazy as you

Lex Fridman (2:40:57.320)

that can help you?

Lex Fridman (2:40:58.460)

Most of us who get to this point get there

Travis Stevens (2:41:02.080)

because we're all a little unstable.

Lex Fridman (2:41:05.920)

Even my wife, Galita, right?

Travis Stevens (2:41:07.440)

Like when she was getting ready for 2016,

Lex Fridman (2:41:11.020)

or when she was getting ready for 2020,

Travis Stevens (2:41:13.900)

because she moved to Boston to be a coach,

Lex Fridman (2:41:16.980)

she had a neck problem, right?

Lex Fridman (2:41:22.780)

And at some point in time, it's like,

Lex Fridman (2:41:26.940)

what's really important?

Lex Fridman (2:41:29.040)

Day to day life or judo?

Lex Fridman (2:41:31.820)

And believe it or not, the doctor in Canada was like,

Travis Stevens (2:41:36.820)

I am never under any circumstances

Lex Fridman (2:41:39.480)

doing an MRI of your neck again.

Travis Stevens (2:41:42.900)

That's what she told her.

Lex Fridman (2:41:44.100)

She goes, if you have me do an MRI,

Travis Stevens (2:41:46.140)

you're not doing judo again.

Lex Fridman (2:41:47.400)

So just know if you hurt your neck and it requires an MRI,

Travis Stevens (2:41:52.000)

you're done with judo forever.

Lex Fridman (2:41:53.980)

So decide if you wanna do judo or not.

Travis Stevens (2:41:56.320)

That was a conversation we actually had to have.

Lex Fridman (2:41:58.980)

That's a cool thing for a doctor to say.

Travis Stevens (2:42:01.780)

I mean, it depends how bad ass they sound when they say it.

Lex Fridman (2:42:05.260)

So that's a tough conversation.

Lex Fridman (2:42:06.460)

Judo one, what's this with your wife?

Lex Fridman (2:42:09.860)

What's that relationship like?

Lex Fridman (2:42:11.100)

So you're both a little crazy.

Lex Fridman (2:42:13.180)

A little bit.

Travis Stevens (2:42:14.020)

In a good sense, or from my perspective, in a good sense.

Lex Fridman (2:42:18.000)

Yeah, it's just, we understand that when you set a goal

Travis Stevens (2:42:24.620)

to do something, you're not signing on for the good.

Lex Fridman (2:42:28.780)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (2:42:29.620)

You're signing on for the bad.

Lex Fridman (2:42:31.380)

And I don't think a lot of people understand that.

Travis Stevens (2:42:34.080)

That's like a Valentine's Day card from Travis Stevens.

Lex Fridman (2:42:38.140)

You have to accept everything negative

Travis Stevens (2:42:40.740)

that could possibly happen.

Lex Fridman (2:42:42.420)

And until you do, you're never gonna make it.

Travis Stevens (2:42:44.500)

Because you'll always sell yourself short.

Lex Fridman (2:42:46.420)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (2:42:47.260)

You'll never go far enough.

Lex Fridman (2:42:49.460)

And if you sign up for the whole thing,

Travis Stevens (2:42:50.700)

then the negative is just like, oh, great.

Lex Fridman (2:42:53.220)

I expected that.

Travis Stevens (2:42:54.500)

If you're experiencing the negative,

Lex Fridman (2:42:56.220)

they're also experiencing the negative.

Lex Fridman (2:42:58.180)

And if you overcome it,

Lex Fridman (2:42:59.100)

maybe they'll get knocked out for it.

Travis Stevens (2:43:00.980)

Yep.

Lex Fridman (2:43:01.820)

Maybe they won't deal with it.

Travis Stevens (2:43:02.720)

Maybe they won't train through it.

Lex Fridman (2:43:05.140)

Right, when I had my five herniated disc

Lex Fridman (2:43:06.900)

and I was in a neck brace,

Lex Fridman (2:43:07.900)

I was still in the gym at seven a.m.

Travis Stevens (2:43:09.900)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:43:10.740)

Doing whatever it is I could do

Travis Stevens (2:43:12.260)

because my job is to be at the gym.

Lex Fridman (2:43:15.020)

David Goggins, I don't know if you know the guy,

Travis Stevens (2:43:17.180)

he's gone, he's damaged lots of parts of his body,

Lex Fridman (2:43:20.300)

like you, trying to achieve things.

Travis Stevens (2:43:23.100)

So, unlike you, his achievements are like,

Lex Fridman (2:43:28.020)

your achievements come with the medal.

Travis Stevens (2:43:30.660)

He's just running in the darkness in the middle of nowhere

Lex Fridman (2:43:33.700)

by himself.

Travis Stevens (2:43:34.540)

It's like, I mean, it's the same probably as with you

Lex Fridman (2:43:36.940)

if you're able to be introspective about it,

Travis Stevens (2:43:39.300)

is he's just battling his own inner demons

Lex Fridman (2:43:41.900)

and working through those

Lex Fridman (2:43:44.060)

and is breaking his body doing so.

Lex Fridman (2:43:47.660)

Are you cognizant of the trade off of the fact

Travis Stevens (2:43:51.260)

that you're damaging your body

Lex Fridman (2:43:55.920)

to get to these levels of achievements,

Lex Fridman (2:43:57.860)

of this level of excellence, of this level of greatness?

Lex Fridman (2:44:00.740)

I mean, I guess that depends

Travis Stevens (2:44:02.540)

on what you consider damage really

Lex Fridman (2:44:04.340)

because I don't really see that I have damaged my body.

Travis Stevens (2:44:08.140)

If anything, I think I've strengthened it.

Lex Fridman (2:44:10.540)

My body can go through more than yours can.

Travis Stevens (2:44:12.300)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:44:13.140)

Who's is weaker?

Travis Stevens (2:44:13.960)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:44:16.420)

Right?

Lex Fridman (2:44:17.260)

It's just like the Thai boxers, right?

Lex Fridman (2:44:19.560)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (2:44:20.400)

In order to strengthen their shins,

Lex Fridman (2:44:21.280)

they gotta break it a few times.

Travis Stevens (2:44:22.700)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:44:23.540)

It's just nature of the beast.

Travis Stevens (2:44:24.600)

You just had to break a bunch of stuff

Lex Fridman (2:44:26.820)

to find where the weak points are

Lex Fridman (2:44:28.260)

and then made them stronger.

Lex Fridman (2:44:29.580)

Yep.

Travis Stevens (2:44:30.420)

Or strengthen the areas around it

Lex Fridman (2:44:31.860)

to strengthen it by the sheer relation to it.

Lex Fridman (2:44:36.140)

But the problem is you may not be able to do judo

Lex Fridman (2:44:41.860)

for until you're 70.

Lex Fridman (2:44:44.380)

Why not?

Lex Fridman (2:44:45.700)

I may not be able to do judo to the level I used to.

Travis Stevens (2:44:47.980)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:44:48.820)

Don't get me wrong, but I can still do judo.

Travis Stevens (2:44:50.380)

You can still do judo.

Lex Fridman (2:44:51.220)

And I think a lot of people struggle with,

Travis Stevens (2:44:53.980)

they wanna keep doing it

Lex Fridman (2:44:55.380)

like they used to be able to do it.

Travis Stevens (2:44:57.260)

I don't try to do judo like I used to,

Lex Fridman (2:44:59.000)

like you're seeing here.

Travis Stevens (2:45:00.460)

I'm not that guy anymore.

Lex Fridman (2:45:02.660)

I accept that.

Travis Stevens (2:45:03.660)

I don't even try to be that guy anymore.

Lex Fridman (2:45:06.900)

I'm a completely different player today than I am

Travis Stevens (2:45:09.820)

when I was winning Olympic medals.

Lex Fridman (2:45:15.300)

And so I guess when you're looking at my journey

Lex Fridman (2:45:18.940)

and the trade off is I never sacrificed anything.

Lex Fridman (2:45:22.900)

The people around me sacrificed for me.

Lex Fridman (2:45:27.840)

And I never had a downturn after the Olympics

Lex Fridman (2:45:30.900)

because I never identified as an Olympian.

Travis Stevens (2:45:35.780)

You know, a lot of Olympians suffer from depression

Lex Fridman (2:45:38.280)

afterwards.

Travis Stevens (2:45:39.120)

Because they identify as it.

Lex Fridman (2:45:40.300)

Now they don't have who they are.

Lex Fridman (2:45:42.460)

Where was your personal moment of greatness?

Lex Fridman (2:45:46.920)

Like, or do you not experience life that way?

Lex Fridman (2:45:49.760)

Where you were truly proud to be yourself?

Lex Fridman (2:45:52.100)

Like.

Travis Stevens (2:45:52.940)

Every day I wake up.

Lex Fridman (2:45:56.220)

You wake up and you're not proud of who you are,

Travis Stevens (2:45:57.820)

then you've really gotta seek out some help.

Lex Fridman (2:46:01.420)

So that's, first of all, okay, I'll do that

Travis Stevens (2:46:03.900)

because I definitely am not proud of who I am.

Lex Fridman (2:46:07.300)

I just wonder if you didn't identify with the Olympics,

Travis Stevens (2:46:11.220)

was there times, maybe in the training room,

Lex Fridman (2:46:14.020)

maybe in Japan, where you just kinda felt like,

Lex Fridman (2:46:19.020)

I get more of an emotional, I guess, trigger, right?

Lex Fridman (2:46:24.220)

Where like, I feel proud of what I've done

Travis Stevens (2:46:27.420)

when I've set to a task and I've done it.

Lex Fridman (2:46:33.340)

So almost any task.

Lex Fridman (2:46:35.080)

And the more challenging the task, the more reward.

Lex Fridman (2:46:40.060)

You fought a lot of amazing battles in 2016 Olympics.

Lex Fridman (2:46:44.860)

So you got, you beat the, let's see,

Lex Fridman (2:46:47.940)

the world number four in the quarterfinals.

Travis Stevens (2:46:51.660)

It's like a replay.

Lex Fridman (2:46:52.620)

Every single Olympics, you're,

Travis Stevens (2:46:54.940)

all the people.

Lex Fridman (2:46:55.780)

I got terrible draws.

Travis Stevens (2:46:57.260)

Terrible draws.

Lex Fridman (2:46:58.260)

And then you're facing,

Travis Stevens (2:46:59.300)

this is where I was like watching this,

Lex Fridman (2:47:00.620)

I'm like, yeah, he's screwed.

Travis Stevens (2:47:02.060)

You faced the world number one, the Georgian, in the.

Lex Fridman (2:47:05.340)

By the way, for people who don't know,

Travis Stevens (2:47:07.300)

he beat me five times to my beating him once,

Lex Fridman (2:47:11.580)

and the one time I beat him was in London.

Lex Fridman (2:47:13.880)

And all other times he beat me, he beat me biathlon.

Lex Fridman (2:47:16.600)

And not by like a little throw,

Travis Stevens (2:47:19.760)

like he threw me on my head.

Lex Fridman (2:47:22.860)

At one point we were in Georgia.

Travis Stevens (2:47:25.420)

I'm fighting him in the final.

Lex Fridman (2:47:27.040)

I go to my teammate and I go, guess what?

Travis Stevens (2:47:29.220)

Make sure you watch this fight.

Lex Fridman (2:47:30.520)

Somebody's getting thrown free pwn.

Travis Stevens (2:47:32.320)

This match ain't, this ain't match going to distance.

Lex Fridman (2:47:34.720)

And about a minute in,

Travis Stevens (2:47:36.360)

I tried to take his head off with a big Koshiguruma,

Lex Fridman (2:47:38.920)

which is like a head and arm.

Travis Stevens (2:47:41.400)

He caught me and then threw me on my head

Lex Fridman (2:47:42.880)

and ended the match.

Lex Fridman (2:47:44.060)

So first of all, we're watching the video of you,

Lex Fridman (2:47:48.340)

again, standing next to the guy

Travis Stevens (2:47:50.580)

leading up to your semifinal match.

Lex Fridman (2:47:52.640)

So here, if you win this, you're guaranteed a medal.

Lex Fridman (2:47:56.580)

But the chances of you winning, from my fan perspective,

Lex Fridman (2:47:59.420)

I was like, God damn it.

Travis Stevens (2:48:01.660)

You and the rest of the world, except for me.

Lex Fridman (2:48:03.660)

Except for you.

Lex Fridman (2:48:04.500)

What are you saying?

Lex Fridman (2:48:05.340)

You're talking to yourself here.

Lex Fridman (2:48:07.060)

What are you saying?

Lex Fridman (2:48:08.080)

My name is Travis Stevens.

Travis Stevens (2:48:09.700)

I'm an Olympic champion.

Lex Fridman (2:48:10.940)

I will not be denied.

Travis Stevens (2:48:14.540)

The George is probably like,

Lex Fridman (2:48:15.540)

what the hell is this guy saying?

Lex Fridman (2:48:17.780)

What is he talking to himself?

Lex Fridman (2:48:20.500)

So he was probably ultra confident.

Travis Stevens (2:48:22.340)

Yeah, had to be.

Lex Fridman (2:48:24.340)

The difference is,

Travis Stevens (2:48:26.060)

is I understood the last five times he beat me.

Lex Fridman (2:48:29.220)

I was purposely trying to throw him, not beat him.

Travis Stevens (2:48:33.340)

I wanted to find out if I could.

Lex Fridman (2:48:35.940)

Turns out I can't.

Lex Fridman (2:48:38.140)

But I don't need to throw him to beat him.

Lex Fridman (2:48:40.660)

I need to know how to not lose.

Lex Fridman (2:48:44.780)

But you were still going for stuff here.

Lex Fridman (2:48:47.860)

But all of my attacks drag him to the ground.

Travis Stevens (2:48:51.300)

They're never standing on my feet.

Lex Fridman (2:48:55.160)

Which is a complete, which is a distinction

Lex Fridman (2:48:56.980)

that we talked about at the very beginning, right?

Lex Fridman (2:48:59.000)

You have throws where you're standing

Lex Fridman (2:49:00.220)

and throws where you're dropping.

Lex Fridman (2:49:01.660)

Every time I try to throw him standing,

Travis Stevens (2:49:04.220)

he throws me free pony.

Lex Fridman (2:49:05.340)

He picks me up and he throws me on my head, literally.

Lex Fridman (2:49:08.460)

So what I did is I just needed to get to that last

Lex Fridman (2:49:10.860)

one minute mark, which is what he does mentally

Travis Stevens (2:49:13.840)

in his own Judo, where he changes into a panic

Lex Fridman (2:49:16.820)

and just tries to do things that are uncharacteristic.

Lex Fridman (2:49:21.620)

So you knew he's gonna start panicking here

Lex Fridman (2:49:23.580)

as the match draws to a close

Lex Fridman (2:49:26.180)

and you both have a Shido, a penalty.

Lex Fridman (2:49:29.620)

Did we pass the point where I went for broke

Lex Fridman (2:49:31.620)

and I broke my rule?

Lex Fridman (2:49:33.720)

Which one?

Travis Stevens (2:49:34.860)

I went for a crazy foot sweep, like Ippon switch thing.

Lex Fridman (2:49:42.460)

I can't even remember what it's called

Travis Stevens (2:49:43.780)

because it's not used that often.

Lex Fridman (2:49:45.460)

And he actually landed on top of me

Lex Fridman (2:49:47.620)

and some people wanted it to be called Ippon.

Lex Fridman (2:49:50.420)

But he had actually let go of the gi

Lex Fridman (2:49:53.180)

and was looking for the mat.

Lex Fridman (2:49:54.360)

So he didn't have any control.

Lex Fridman (2:49:55.620)

So they didn't award him a point.

Lex Fridman (2:49:59.100)

Yeah, and here we go.

Travis Stevens (2:49:59.920)

Now we're getting down into the,

Lex Fridman (2:50:00.940)

see like he's getting frustrated.

Travis Stevens (2:50:02.420)

Great.

Lex Fridman (2:50:03.260)

I love it. Perfect.

Travis Stevens (2:50:05.780)

Second penalty, no big deal.

Lex Fridman (2:50:07.300)

We just got to get to the one minute mark.

Travis Stevens (2:50:09.380)

That's all we got to do.

Lex Fridman (2:50:13.700)

So there's no panic here for you.

Travis Stevens (2:50:15.460)

Nope, I'm right where I need to be and look it.

Lex Fridman (2:50:19.380)

Now, if you go back into this match,

Travis Stevens (2:50:23.340)

I would love for somebody to go back

Lex Fridman (2:50:25.380)

and see how many times he did a drop right Ippon Seinagi.

Travis Stevens (2:50:31.020)

Probably never.

Lex Fridman (2:50:32.300)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:50:33.140)

Why is he doing it now?

Lex Fridman (2:50:35.660)

Cause he panics and he changes his Judo

Travis Stevens (2:50:38.220)

at that one minute mark.

Lex Fridman (2:50:40.900)

Look how much I kept that grip.

Travis Stevens (2:50:43.180)

Yeah, you kept, you have that grip this whole time.

Lex Fridman (2:50:46.740)

You have your left hand.

Travis Stevens (2:50:48.060)

Walking him down.

Lex Fridman (2:50:48.980)

Walking him down.

Travis Stevens (2:50:51.380)

He, you keep the grip as he's throwing.

Lex Fridman (2:50:54.780)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:50:55.620)

Which, were you thinking choke as he drops or no?

Lex Fridman (2:50:58.800)

It's just kind of natural instinct.

Travis Stevens (2:51:00.460)

Yeah, because we drilled it.

Lex Fridman (2:51:02.140)

I spent two years drilling this transition.

Lex Fridman (2:51:04.300)

And then very, so for people that don't do Judo, Jujitsu,

Lex Fridman (2:51:08.500)

it's like really nice.

Travis Stevens (2:51:09.980)

You keep, everything is nicely controlled

Lex Fridman (2:51:12.580)

to where you're keeping that Gi under his chin.

Travis Stevens (2:51:15.060)

Like it's really tight control.

Lex Fridman (2:51:16.460)

Like it's very, like you're, I guess it's drilling,

Lex Fridman (2:51:19.240)

but you're cognizant of the position of your wrist

Lex Fridman (2:51:21.300)

the whole time.

Lex Fridman (2:51:22.140)

And you can tell based on like just years of doing it,

Lex Fridman (2:51:25.740)

whether it's under or it's not.

Travis Stevens (2:51:27.860)

You can just feel the difference.

Lex Fridman (2:51:29.740)

And it's probably, even if you wanted to stop that,

Travis Stevens (2:51:32.220)

it's very difficult because your whole time, it's like.

Lex Fridman (2:51:34.820)

Once it's under, it's almost impossible to stop.

Travis Stevens (2:51:38.660)

For people who practice Jujitsu, don't practice Judo,

Lex Fridman (2:51:41.220)

one of the very annoying things about Judo

Travis Stevens (2:51:44.620)

is in order to do Gi chokes,

Lex Fridman (2:51:47.420)

they have to be under the chin.

Travis Stevens (2:51:48.820)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (2:51:50.220)

Even though the kind of intense chokes you do

Travis Stevens (2:51:52.460)

work just fine over the chin, but.

Lex Fridman (2:51:55.860)

And the kicker here and why we practice this choke

Travis Stevens (2:51:59.380)

was because when you go back and watch

Lex Fridman (2:52:01.140)

all of the other matches, he always does this tripod

Travis Stevens (2:52:04.620)

when I try to do arm locks,

Lex Fridman (2:52:06.220)

which is typically what I would do.

Lex Fridman (2:52:08.060)

And when I do that, he ends up sliding out

Lex Fridman (2:52:10.380)

and I end up falling off.

Lex Fridman (2:52:12.340)

So you step up here with the choke,

Lex Fridman (2:52:14.740)

he does a tripod where he sticks his button to the air

Lex Fridman (2:52:18.140)

and you, dude, what's the name of this choke?

Lex Fridman (2:52:23.420)

Bone arrow.

Travis Stevens (2:52:24.860)

No, but, okay, but I mean, when you do from like,

Lex Fridman (2:52:27.180)

from that position, is there a way,

Travis Stevens (2:52:30.260)

this entry into the bone arrow, I guess,

Lex Fridman (2:52:32.740)

because you're doing.

Travis Stevens (2:52:33.580)

We refer to Judo as a British strangle,

Lex Fridman (2:52:36.380)

when they're in that turtle position

Lex Fridman (2:52:38.260)

and you do that rolling motion.

Lex Fridman (2:52:39.940)

Cool.

Lex Fridman (2:52:41.500)

And here, when you go into that,

Lex Fridman (2:52:43.900)

you can fall off of him, like you said,

Travis Stevens (2:52:45.620)

if you're going for an arm bar,

Lex Fridman (2:52:47.300)

but here, literally, because you have it under the chin

Travis Stevens (2:52:50.820)

really well, there's just a nice control.

Lex Fridman (2:52:53.320)

And I've already planned on it being on his chin.

Lex Fridman (2:52:56.740)

That's why I've hooked the arm, right?

Lex Fridman (2:52:58.620)

It's already starting to go straight.

Travis Stevens (2:53:00.340)

Probably this choke in the early stages,

Lex Fridman (2:53:03.660)

like a few frames before, feels like it,

Travis Stevens (2:53:08.420)

like you're safe, it's fine.

Lex Fridman (2:53:11.460)

Like the head will slip out or something like that.

Travis Stevens (2:53:13.860)

Yeah, and that's why my left knee is up by his shoulder,

Lex Fridman (2:53:17.900)

to keep that pressure down so that he can't posture it up.

Lex Fridman (2:53:24.240)

When did you know you have this?

Lex Fridman (2:53:25.940)

Oh, it works right here.

Travis Stevens (2:53:29.820)

I actually panicked right about here.

Lex Fridman (2:53:36.620)

Was maybe his head could come out?

Travis Stevens (2:53:39.020)

My hand, I tore the muscle in my palm

Lex Fridman (2:53:42.060)

because I was pulling so hard that I'm like,

Travis Stevens (2:53:45.700)

he may not tap.

Lex Fridman (2:53:47.320)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:53:48.160)

Like, is my hand just going to give out beforehand?

Lex Fridman (2:53:52.140)

And there he is.

Lex Fridman (2:53:52.980)

And we're right on this edge, right?

Lex Fridman (2:53:55.020)

So like, if we roll a little bit outside

Lex Fridman (2:53:57.060)

and I still don't have it, like that ref could stop it.

Lex Fridman (2:54:00.340)

And then I felt him tapping and.

Travis Stevens (2:54:03.460)

Oh, that, he's heartbroken.

Lex Fridman (2:54:08.160)

I felt.

Travis Stevens (2:54:09.000)

Surprised.

Lex Fridman (2:54:10.260)

There it is.

Travis Stevens (2:54:13.100)

The relief.

Lex Fridman (2:54:13.940)

Olympic final.

Lex Fridman (2:54:17.340)

And he knew, he knew he lost an Olympic medal right there

Lex Fridman (2:54:22.020)

because he already knew

Travis Stevens (2:54:23.980)

that the Japanese guy was going to be his bronze,

Lex Fridman (2:54:26.740)

that he never beats.

Travis Stevens (2:54:29.660)

See the, but also he probably in his head

Lex Fridman (2:54:35.420)

was confident that he would be in the final.

Travis Stevens (2:54:37.540)

Correct.

Lex Fridman (2:54:38.620)

And so like this, he almost is surprised.

Travis Stevens (2:54:41.780)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:54:42.860)

It's not supposed to happen this way.

Lex Fridman (2:54:45.140)

And it's the second time it's happened.

Lex Fridman (2:54:47.140)

And that's how you became an Olympic medalist.

Travis Stevens (2:54:54.800)

Man, that must be a great feeling.

Lex Fridman (2:54:57.440)

That must be a great feeling right here.

Travis Stevens (2:55:00.840)

Just like all the years of injuries, all of it.

Lex Fridman (2:55:07.500)

As fans that watch this too, it's like, holy shit.

Travis Stevens (2:55:11.120)

He actually did it.

Lex Fridman (2:55:11.960)

And it's a packed stadium too.

Travis Stevens (2:55:13.960)

Not one empty seat.

Lex Fridman (2:55:15.160)

Oh man.

Lex Fridman (2:55:18.080)

So maybe what were you thinking here?

Lex Fridman (2:55:22.760)

I'll just focus on the next match.

Travis Stevens (2:55:24.360)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:55:25.600)

It took me maybe like a minute or so to like decompress

Lex Fridman (2:55:32.940)

and then like get back to like my normal state

Lex Fridman (2:55:35.960)

for the final.

Lex Fridman (2:55:39.340)

So the final is against the,

Lex Fridman (2:55:42.700)

the Russian here.

Lex Fridman (2:55:45.460)

What can you say about your mindset?

Lex Fridman (2:55:49.180)

You're saying the exact same thing.

Travis Stevens (2:55:50.660)

Same thing.

Lex Fridman (2:55:51.660)

Travel Stevens, Olympic champion.

Travis Stevens (2:55:54.300)

I will not be denied because I had felt like in London

Lex Fridman (2:55:58.180)

and throughout the years, I felt like I kept getting robbed.

Lex Fridman (2:56:02.500)

So I made sure in my mantra to add that little bit

Lex Fridman (2:56:04.700)

at the end to reassure myself that like,

Travis Stevens (2:56:07.700)

they are not gonna control the outcome of today.

Lex Fridman (2:56:10.580)

I'm gonna control the outcome.

Lex Fridman (2:56:12.280)

What did you know about the Russian?

Lex Fridman (2:56:14.180)

Everything.

Lex Fridman (2:56:17.180)

And I honestly, I thought I had won the Olympics right now.

Lex Fridman (2:56:20.420)

And I still do think that today.

Travis Stevens (2:56:22.500)

Just like mentally when you think about it,

Lex Fridman (2:56:26.180)

that I've won like, yeah, he threw me,

Lex Fridman (2:56:33.840)

but it was like a one in a million chance

Lex Fridman (2:56:35.580)

that that worked for him.

Travis Stevens (2:56:37.580)

Like, come on.

Lex Fridman (2:56:38.540)

So it's not like you feel lucky to be in the final.

Travis Stevens (2:56:42.420)

It's like, you deserve to be champion.

Lex Fridman (2:56:44.700)

Again, remember, I'm anticipating the goal.

Travis Stevens (2:56:47.860)

Like I'm past that.

Lex Fridman (2:56:50.500)

There's a confidence in the way you're moving

Lex Fridman (2:56:52.140)

and the way you're.

Lex Fridman (2:56:52.980)

Yeah, like I have his sleeve.

Travis Stevens (2:56:54.420)

He's not breaking it.

Lex Fridman (2:56:55.400)

Like still walking him down, still going forward.

Travis Stevens (2:56:57.820)

Like I knew exactly how I was gonna beat him.

Lex Fridman (2:57:04.180)

And I developed a plan because when I was getting ready

Travis Stevens (2:57:06.460)

for Rio, we brought in a lot of the top Japanese players

Lex Fridman (2:57:10.900)

that weren't invited to the camp for the national team

Travis Stevens (2:57:13.940)

to Boston.

Lex Fridman (2:57:14.780)

So I had four people, three of them were

Travis Stevens (2:57:16.380)

on the national team.

Lex Fridman (2:57:17.260)

One of them had won the universities in Japan,

Travis Stevens (2:57:20.820)

all at 81 kilos.

Lex Fridman (2:57:23.100)

I only got thrown once during camp for a month.

Travis Stevens (2:57:25.460)

Wow.

Lex Fridman (2:57:26.420)

Like I was ready.

Travis Stevens (2:57:31.380)

I just, I fucking slipped.

Lex Fridman (2:57:33.880)

Where does it happen?

Travis Stevens (2:57:36.680)

Right when he threw me.

Lex Fridman (2:57:37.780)

So if you let this play out really quick,

Travis Stevens (2:57:40.640)

there's a point right here where I'm gonna come around

Lex Fridman (2:57:42.360)

his back and I'm kinda gonna just yoko sutemi,

Travis Stevens (2:57:46.800)

which means like a lateral drop.

Lex Fridman (2:57:48.460)

And I'm just gonna bring him down to the floor,

Travis Stevens (2:57:50.360)

which isn't a throw right here.

Lex Fridman (2:57:52.380)

It's more of like a takedown, right?

Travis Stevens (2:57:54.480)

I'm trying to get him to the ground

Lex Fridman (2:57:55.860)

cause I wanna burn him.

Travis Stevens (2:57:57.160)

He doesn't do any waza.

Lex Fridman (2:57:58.920)

So I'm just gonna keep burning him.

Lex Fridman (2:58:00.200)

And you can see that like I get really close here.

Lex Fridman (2:58:05.160)

He just went a little too far to his side

Travis Stevens (2:58:08.440)

during this exchange.

Lex Fridman (2:58:10.760)

And like he's running.

Travis Stevens (2:58:12.360)

I'm like, ah, he.

Lex Fridman (2:58:17.480)

He's very wiry for an 81 kg player.

Travis Stevens (2:58:20.100)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:58:20.940)

There's not much like muscle on him.

Lex Fridman (2:58:23.520)

But he uses his length and his leverage very well.

Lex Fridman (2:58:26.040)

And you can see like I'm really burning the clock here.

Travis Stevens (2:58:28.120)

Like I'm owning these exchanges

Lex Fridman (2:58:30.560)

more than I'm owning the tachi waza ones,

Travis Stevens (2:58:32.440)

the ones in our feet.

Lex Fridman (2:58:33.600)

So you weren't trying to necessarily like submit him here

Travis Stevens (2:58:36.320)

or like really hard or like pin him.

Lex Fridman (2:58:40.840)

You were trying to break him a bit.

Travis Stevens (2:58:43.240)

I'm doing both.

Lex Fridman (2:58:44.880)

I'm being overly physical.

Lex Fridman (2:58:48.320)

And to a lot of the BJJ people who are watching this,

Lex Fridman (2:58:51.240)

like they're like, oh, well I would have done this.

Travis Stevens (2:58:54.120)

I would have done that.

Lex Fridman (2:58:55.020)

You've got to think like if that referee

Travis Stevens (2:58:58.800)

who's reffing the judo side of it

Lex Fridman (2:59:00.200)

looks at it for a couple of seconds and is like,

Travis Stevens (2:59:03.540)

he's not really moving.

Lex Fridman (2:59:05.080)

They'll stop it.

Travis Stevens (2:59:06.200)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:59:07.040)

So you're like, you understand judo.

Travis Stevens (2:59:09.960)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:59:10.800)

What's called ne waza groundwork.

Travis Stevens (2:59:12.040)

Like what you, cause you're really showing it to the ref.

Lex Fridman (2:59:14.920)

Yes.

Travis Stevens (2:59:15.760)

You have to show movement and progression.

Lex Fridman (2:59:19.440)

That hurt the forehead.

Travis Stevens (2:59:20.600)

Like see, I threw that hand in there kind of hard,

Lex Fridman (2:59:23.420)

ripping it across his face just because.

Travis Stevens (2:59:29.480)

I got to tell you there's a calm.

Lex Fridman (2:59:31.760)

Well, no, he does look a little broken,

Lex Fridman (2:59:35.120)

but the Russians have like this calmness.

Lex Fridman (2:59:39.760)

They're pretty good at.

Travis Stevens (2:59:40.840)

Well, don't forget they've competed like this for long time.

Lex Fridman (2:59:44.320)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (2:59:45.160)

It's all he knows.

Lex Fridman (2:59:47.680)

And this is where I lose it.

Travis Stevens (2:59:48.720)

See how my knee hit the ground.

Lex Fridman (2:59:50.400)

My knee wasn't supposed to touch the ground.

Travis Stevens (2:59:53.080)

I was supposed to sit to my hip to bring him down.

Lex Fridman (2:59:55.840)

Something happened where my knee touched

Lex Fridman (2:59:58.120)

and it didn't happen in the first one.

Lex Fridman (30:00.320)

Yeah, 20 seconds now.

Travis Stevens (30:01.840)

I think the distinction is their back

Lex Fridman (30:04.640)

has to be facing the mat.

Travis Stevens (30:06.520)

You have to be past their legs

Lex Fridman (30:08.160)

and your chest has to be on the same plane as theirs.

Lex Fridman (30:12.000)

So it doesn't have to necessarily be on top,

Lex Fridman (30:14.120)

but it has to be on the same plane.

Lex Fridman (30:16.560)

And all of this is, I think different sports

Lex Fridman (30:20.000)

have different versions of this,

Lex Fridman (30:21.240)

but it's like an approximation

Lex Fridman (30:23.600)

of what dominance looks like.

Lex Fridman (30:25.680)

So pin and wrestling is dominating your opponent.

Lex Fridman (30:29.280)

Presumably if you were in a street fight,

Travis Stevens (30:31.320)

that position allows you to then do a lot of damage.

Lex Fridman (30:34.160)

Obviously submissions is dominance

Travis Stevens (30:35.840)

cause you're breaking their arm or choking them to unconscious.

Lex Fridman (30:40.480)

And then obviously the throw,

Travis Stevens (30:42.520)

which is not often talked about,

Lex Fridman (30:44.800)

but like if you talk about a street fight situation,

Travis Stevens (30:47.920)

a throw is like the best way to murder somebody.

Lex Fridman (30:52.560)

Like this could end anyone's life.

Travis Stevens (30:54.360)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (30:55.360)

It's terrifying actually.

Travis Stevens (30:56.800)

So, okay, so these are all elements of dominance.

Lex Fridman (31:00.480)

So going back to set of principles,

Travis Stevens (31:03.040)

you were mentioning getting your center of mass under theirs,

Lex Fridman (31:06.840)

which I think applies for type of like the forward

Lex Fridman (31:10.760)

say Nagi throws, is there other stuff?

Lex Fridman (31:14.440)

Oh, so you mentioned off balance.

Travis Stevens (31:15.960)

Yeah, there's the off balance one

Lex Fridman (31:17.680)

where you can either pull to get an off balance

Travis Stevens (31:21.280)

or you can give way to the force,

Lex Fridman (31:24.080)

which can also lead to an off balance.

Travis Stevens (31:27.600)

You can amplify somebody's force to,

Lex Fridman (31:30.560)

so for example, if you push me,

Travis Stevens (31:34.480)

you expect a certain reaction that you're ready for.

Lex Fridman (31:39.520)

But if you push me and I pull you,

Travis Stevens (31:42.200)

now you didn't expect that much force coming out of you.

Lex Fridman (31:44.800)

Therefore you're off balance.

Travis Stevens (31:47.480)

The thing that's distinctly recognizable about Judo

Lex Fridman (31:51.440)

is like when done at the highest level,

Travis Stevens (31:54.960)

like it seems effortless when the big throw happens.

Lex Fridman (31:59.960)

Like that's just, it doesn't,

Travis Stevens (32:01.680)

there is no other sport like it in the combat sports

Lex Fridman (32:04.520)

where it's like when the timing is right,

Travis Stevens (32:07.720)

everything just is perfect.

Lex Fridman (32:09.240)

I think you get that out of my mate

Lex Fridman (32:10.880)

and boxing sometimes when this is a perfect strike,

Lex Fridman (32:15.920)

just like, but it's not just like a hard hit.

Travis Stevens (32:19.760)

It's like, it's almost like with Conor McGregor and Aldo,

Lex Fridman (32:23.680)

for example, when you just catch him just right.

Travis Stevens (32:25.640)

Just right.

Lex Fridman (32:26.480)

You didn't look like you hit him that hard,

Lex Fridman (32:28.440)

but you hit him just right.

Lex Fridman (32:29.640)

And then you get to see this all the time in Judo.

Travis Stevens (32:33.000)

It's fascinating.

Lex Fridman (32:34.120)

And so the beginning part of that

Travis Stevens (32:36.400)

is because there's a jacket,

Lex Fridman (32:38.360)

there's also this whole thing that you're a master of,

Travis Stevens (32:40.840)

which is like, which is gripping.

Lex Fridman (32:43.480)

So is there something you could say about,

Travis Stevens (32:46.200)

are there some fundamental principles of gripping

Lex Fridman (32:48.840)

that you can speak to?

Lex Fridman (32:50.200)

Like what the hell is gripping?

Lex Fridman (32:52.160)

Gripping is having the ability to hold your opponent

Travis Stevens (32:56.000)

in such a way where you have the ability to be offensive

Lex Fridman (32:59.560)

and also the ability to be defensive at the same given time.

Lex Fridman (33:05.200)

And it's a distinction because I can hold you

Lex Fridman (33:08.880)

in such a way where I might be able to feel offensive,

Lex Fridman (33:13.240)

but if you can take a purely defensive grip

Lex Fridman (33:16.000)

and then I can't be offensive, we are no longer gripping.

Travis Stevens (33:19.240)

We are holding each other.

Lex Fridman (33:21.720)

Right.

Travis Stevens (33:22.560)

Right.

Lex Fridman (33:23.400)

And so like that would be the act of being able to grip

Travis Stevens (33:26.360)

is to be in a situation where you have me and I have you,

Lex Fridman (33:30.960)

and I can play both offense and defense at the same time

Travis Stevens (33:34.400)

where you can only play defense.

Lex Fridman (33:36.960)

So Donaher talks about like Jiu Jitsu that way,

Lex Fridman (33:40.200)

and not that way,

Lex Fridman (33:41.040)

but maybe you can see if there's a distinction.

Lex Fridman (33:43.520)

So you have a set of weapons.

Lex Fridman (33:45.400)

The other person has a set of weapons.

Travis Stevens (33:47.320)

You wanna sort of maximize the use of your weapons

Lex Fridman (33:50.640)

and shut down the set of weapons that they have.

Lex Fridman (33:54.720)

Do you see gripping the same way on the feet?

Lex Fridman (33:57.680)

I do if we wanna include body positioning

Travis Stevens (34:00.760)

with our gripping.

Lex Fridman (34:03.280)

Because I can give you any grip you want

Lex Fridman (34:05.040)

and you still can't throw me.

Lex Fridman (34:06.400)

Because I can put myself in a position

Travis Stevens (34:08.720)

that nullifies your ability to use those grips

Lex Fridman (34:11.320)

in a successful way.

Lex Fridman (34:13.120)

And those, would you say the hips are critical to that

Lex Fridman (34:16.160)

or is it everything?

Travis Stevens (34:17.080)

Hips, shoulders, chin position, head position,

Lex Fridman (34:21.120)

the angle of your foot.

Travis Stevens (34:22.760)

Yeah, where you lean.

Lex Fridman (34:24.600)

Wow, okay.

Lex Fridman (34:25.640)

And so, and there's a bunch of places you can grip.

Lex Fridman (34:28.920)

Obviously, if people like kind of think of a jacket,

Travis Stevens (34:31.720)

like there's a bunch of places you can grip

Lex Fridman (34:33.880)

that are interesting.

Lex Fridman (34:35.000)

So you can grip on the collar,

Lex Fridman (34:37.240)

you can grip on the sleeves,

Travis Stevens (34:38.960)

you can grip like the elbow joint.

Lex Fridman (34:41.840)

And then you could do those bad ass,

Travis Stevens (34:44.160)

like Eastern European, Georgian, over the back.

Lex Fridman (34:48.080)

Over the back, over the opposite sides of the heads.

Travis Stevens (34:50.800)

The Koreans that grab on one side

Lex Fridman (34:52.440)

around the head with their hands together.

Travis Stevens (34:54.880)

There's something really nice about just those,

Lex Fridman (34:58.080)

I mean, especially George just keeps throwing that hand.

Travis Stevens (35:00.600)

Just over the person and just,

Lex Fridman (35:02.920)

you're not actually gripping a belt or anything.

Travis Stevens (35:05.600)

You're gripping just the entirety of like,

Lex Fridman (35:08.240)

as opposed to being all nice

Lex Fridman (35:09.600)

and I'm gonna grab this part of the jacket,

Lex Fridman (35:11.160)

this part of the jacket.

Travis Stevens (35:12.400)

You're just like taking the whole fucking jacket

Lex Fridman (35:15.720)

and just launching somebody.

Travis Stevens (35:17.840)

For those people that can't picture judo,

Lex Fridman (35:21.160)

think about it in like,

Travis Stevens (35:23.000)

if you understood like what a boxing match looks like,

Lex Fridman (35:26.240)

and you thought about that as like traditional gripping,

Travis Stevens (35:29.040)

when you throw like a Russian grip over the back,

Lex Fridman (35:31.880)

that's more like a hockey fight.

Travis Stevens (35:33.160)

Like I'm just grabbing you and we're just gonna,

Lex Fridman (35:36.240)

we're gonna be throwing punches left and right.

Travis Stevens (35:38.000)

Cause when we have that grip,

Lex Fridman (35:39.960)

somebody has to get thrown.

Travis Stevens (35:41.840)

There's no, we don't walk around with this grip.

Lex Fridman (35:44.880)

It's go time once somebody throws it.

Travis Stevens (35:47.880)

To me, as a fan and sort of amateur practitioner,

Lex Fridman (35:53.120)

there's two styles of Olympic level judo.

Travis Stevens (35:55.880)

One is where you're trying not to get thrown.

Lex Fridman (35:59.480)

And the other is where you're trying to throw.

Travis Stevens (36:04.080)

More specifically, when you're trying not to get thrown,

Lex Fridman (36:06.720)

there's like the strategy that you're using gripping

Travis Stevens (36:09.160)

to nullify their offense and all those kinds of stuff here.

Lex Fridman (36:13.160)

You're being very clever and strategic and all that,

Travis Stevens (36:15.720)

maybe using conditioning.

Lex Fridman (36:17.360)

And then there's people who just like step in the pocket

Lex Fridman (36:21.280)

and they almost don't care if they're getting thrown

Lex Fridman (36:23.960)

cause they have the confidence

Travis Stevens (36:24.960)

that they're gonna throw first.

Lex Fridman (36:27.120)

And those, like there's a clear distinction

Travis Stevens (36:29.080)

between the people that do one or the other.

Lex Fridman (36:31.280)

And I think both can be done extremely successfully

Travis Stevens (36:35.240)

at the highest level.

Lex Fridman (36:36.440)

It's just like, obviously you admire the people

Travis Stevens (36:38.600)

that step in the pocket.

Lex Fridman (36:40.360)

And I think when you look at the people

Travis Stevens (36:42.160)

who do judo the best,

Lex Fridman (36:45.680)

like if we wanna talk about like the top 10%

Travis Stevens (36:49.240)

of the people who would compete at the games,

Lex Fridman (36:52.040)

they do both.

Lex Fridman (36:53.640)

And they do both really well, but they favor one.

Lex Fridman (36:58.360)

Because if you look at a player like

Travis Stevens (37:02.600)

Lutepe Tilliani of Georgia, for example,

Lex Fridman (37:05.160)

there's a guy that stands in the pocket.

Lex Fridman (37:07.520)

But we can find numerous occasions

Lex Fridman (37:09.520)

where he's hustled some people

Travis Stevens (37:11.760)

for like a short period of time

Lex Fridman (37:13.640)

to get out of scenarios, to elongate the match,

Travis Stevens (37:17.320)

to make somebody tired.

Lex Fridman (37:19.040)

So you want both sides of the coin,

Lex Fridman (37:21.320)

but you better pick the one that 80% of your strategy

Lex Fridman (37:24.760)

is gonna be built around.

Travis Stevens (37:27.120)

Sorry for the romantic question,

Lex Fridman (37:28.480)

but I talked to Dan Gable

Lex Fridman (37:30.240)

and he always looked to the Russians

Lex Fridman (37:33.600)

as the artists in wrestling.

Lex Fridman (37:37.280)

And he always wanted to be an artist.

Lex Fridman (37:39.480)

But I think he's known for being that sort of guts,

Travis Stevens (37:44.160)

aggression, mental toughness guy,

Lex Fridman (37:46.080)

but he always was drawn to the artistry of wrestling.

Travis Stevens (37:49.080)

It's hard to know when you just watch you,

Lex Fridman (37:52.440)

because it looks like you're aggressive

Lex Fridman (37:54.040)

and you got the guts and the mental toughness,

Lex Fridman (37:56.360)

but there's also obviously a mastery of technique.

Travis Stevens (37:58.720)

Which would you lean towards in terms of

Lex Fridman (38:01.800)

what accounts for your success

Lex Fridman (38:03.680)

and just the way you approach judo?

Lex Fridman (38:05.200)

Is it the guts, the aggression, the mental toughness,

Lex Fridman (38:09.760)

or is it the mastery of technique, the artistry?

Lex Fridman (38:15.000)

Mine would be my aggressiveness

Travis Stevens (38:17.600)

if I'm gonna pick those two areas.

Lex Fridman (38:23.120)

But I think there's a third area in there

Travis Stevens (38:25.080)

that I would put myself in where I'm more of a strategist.

Lex Fridman (38:29.160)

I look at all of my opponents

Lex Fridman (38:31.360)

and all I ever see is their faults.

Lex Fridman (38:34.800)

And the way I do judo is built around their faults.

Lex Fridman (38:39.720)

And it's just, I put myself in scenarios

Lex Fridman (38:42.920)

where I don't even know how I'm gonna win.

Lex Fridman (38:45.920)

But what I've done in those scenarios is

Lex Fridman (38:48.760)

I've made it very difficult for you to win.

Lex Fridman (38:53.200)

And then I figure out the rest as I go.

Lex Fridman (38:56.600)

Like how do you study an opponent?

Lex Fridman (38:59.120)

Are there bins you can put them in?

Lex Fridman (39:00.880)

Like there's a lefty and a righty or this kind of stuff.

Lex Fridman (39:04.600)

How many bins are there in judo in your mind

Lex Fridman (39:06.840)

that you put your opponents in?

Travis Stevens (39:09.880)

Yeah, there's probably about 20.

Lex Fridman (39:12.720)

There's like certain players who you could put

Travis Stevens (39:15.440)

in a category of like, they're only good

Lex Fridman (39:18.240)

for the first two thirds of the match.

Travis Stevens (39:21.720)

After that, they turn into a different player

Lex Fridman (39:23.760)

where they're either falling into a sense of panic

Travis Stevens (39:27.320)

or uncertainty.

Lex Fridman (39:28.680)

And you can, if you were to take a video clip

Lex Fridman (39:31.800)

of let's say Church's Philly, right?

Lex Fridman (39:33.720)

They got Georgia and I beat in the Olympic semi.

Travis Stevens (39:37.400)

He's somebody that would beat you

Lex Fridman (39:39.000)

in the first three minutes.

Lex Fridman (39:40.800)

And if you clipped out all of his matches

Lex Fridman (39:43.360)

and you only watched the first three minutes

Travis Stevens (39:46.480)

of every match, you would see one style.

Lex Fridman (39:49.360)

If you found all the matches where he got taken

Travis Stevens (39:51.880)

into the last minute and he wasn't winning by a major score,

Lex Fridman (39:56.880)

you would see a completely different fighter.

Travis Stevens (3:00:00.400)

It just happened there.

Lex Fridman (3:00:02.360)

So like that, we never should have been in that predicament.

Travis Stevens (3:00:05.760)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:00:07.120)

And that's one of the things where

Travis Stevens (3:00:10.040)

when you're looking at sports

Lex Fridman (3:00:12.840)

for anybody who's trying to improve,

Travis Stevens (3:00:17.280)

you have to, when you're trying to improve,

Lex Fridman (3:00:19.680)

you've really got to ignore the ends of the spectrums.

Travis Stevens (3:00:24.960)

The oopsies and the they got lucky.

Lex Fridman (3:00:28.280)

And you only focus on the middle.

Travis Stevens (3:00:29.840)

Like the technique I was doing was perfectly sound.

Lex Fridman (3:00:34.160)

It just happened that the one oopsie happened on the stage

Travis Stevens (3:00:36.720)

it shouldn't have happened on.

Lex Fridman (3:00:38.320)

And there's no amount of drilling

Travis Stevens (3:00:43.260)

that will ever like prevent that from happening.

Lex Fridman (3:00:47.880)

And that's just the.

Travis Stevens (3:00:49.360)

That's sports.

Lex Fridman (3:00:50.200)

That's sports, especially the Olympics,

Travis Stevens (3:00:52.000)

especially Judo when it's like one.

Lex Fridman (3:00:54.000)

You got one mistake.

Travis Stevens (3:00:54.840)

Oopsie can just be your.

Lex Fridman (3:00:56.800)

That's it.

Travis Stevens (3:00:57.920)

That's it.

Lex Fridman (3:00:58.760)

You know, it really requires

Lex Fridman (3:01:00.160)

and you have to wrap your head around the idea of like,

Lex Fridman (3:01:02.720)

if you want the ability to beat these people

Lex Fridman (3:01:04.760)

and throw these people,

Lex Fridman (3:01:05.680)

like you got to be willing to get thrown yourself.

Travis Stevens (3:01:08.160)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:01:10.480)

Like this isn't boxing.

Travis Stevens (3:01:11.640)

There's no like, I'm going to stand in a place

Lex Fridman (3:01:13.520)

where he can't hit me and I can hit him.

Travis Stevens (3:01:16.120)

Because we have the gi and because they can grab it,

Lex Fridman (3:01:18.800)

they have just as much ability to throw you as you them.

Lex Fridman (3:01:22.600)

So how'd you feel here?

Lex Fridman (3:01:24.300)

How long was the duration of you feeling upset

Travis Stevens (3:01:26.560)

that you didn't get the gold versus.

Lex Fridman (3:01:28.240)

Never felt it.

Travis Stevens (3:01:29.120)

Never felt it.

Lex Fridman (3:01:30.980)

Just.

Travis Stevens (3:01:32.320)

Because he didn't beat me.

Lex Fridman (3:01:34.080)

Right.

Travis Stevens (3:01:34.920)

Right, it's an important distinction

Lex Fridman (3:01:35.960)

because when I'm training and when I'm competing,

Travis Stevens (3:01:40.040)

like I understand that I take risks

Lex Fridman (3:01:43.600)

and I accept those consequences.

Travis Stevens (3:01:44.980)

That's why I take them.

Lex Fridman (3:01:46.600)

That's a consequence.

Travis Stevens (3:01:48.460)

That's not him being the better judo player

Lex Fridman (3:01:51.060)

that dominated a match and I didn't have an answer

Lex Fridman (3:01:54.620)

and then he threw me.

Lex Fridman (3:01:56.060)

Then I would be a little upset.

Travis Stevens (3:01:58.220)

Like when you're tired and somebody's coming at you

Lex Fridman (3:02:00.400)

and like, you can't do anything about it,

Travis Stevens (3:02:02.840)

that's a shitty feeling.

Lex Fridman (3:02:04.040)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:02:04.960)

You know?

Lex Fridman (3:02:05.780)

And that wasn't this.

Lex Fridman (3:02:06.620)

And that wasn't this.

Lex Fridman (3:02:08.800)

Like I accept losing when it's my fault.

Travis Stevens (3:02:14.140)

Well, that was a hell of a story, man.

Lex Fridman (3:02:16.060)

So from 2008, 2012, just the sheer number of injuries,

Travis Stevens (3:02:22.080)

the weight cuts, all of that, the wanting to quit,

Lex Fridman (3:02:26.740)

the doubts, I'm sure you did not get,

Travis Stevens (3:02:30.980)

like the fans probably started disappearing

Lex Fridman (3:02:33.520)

somewhere between the second and the third Olympics.

Travis Stevens (3:02:35.700)

Like the support from.

Lex Fridman (3:02:37.860)

It did.

Travis Stevens (3:02:38.700)

Judo within the United States and just everybody, you know.

Lex Fridman (3:02:42.560)

The USOC tried to cut all my funding in 2015 and said,

Travis Stevens (3:02:47.360)

nah, you're too old.

Lex Fridman (3:02:48.600)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:02:49.680)

So through all of that, to win the medal,

Lex Fridman (3:02:52.200)

I mean, that's what the Olympics is about.

Travis Stevens (3:02:55.080)

Is there some, like when you look back,

Lex Fridman (3:02:57.800)

does that seem like another person?

Lex Fridman (3:02:59.580)

Is this like another lifetime ago?

Lex Fridman (3:03:01.360)

Or like, that's a hell of an accomplishment.

Lex Fridman (3:03:03.480)

How do you feel about the whole thing?

Lex Fridman (3:03:06.960)

It's an interesting kind of predicament

Travis Stevens (3:03:11.200)

because there's like those cookie cutter answers

Lex Fridman (3:03:13.400)

about how proud you are and how grateful you are,

Lex Fridman (3:03:15.720)

but at the end of the day, it's not who you are.

Lex Fridman (3:03:20.200)

So that skillset and that mentality that,

Travis Stevens (3:03:24.880)

you know, it took to accomplish that, that's who you are.

Lex Fridman (3:03:29.160)

And so this was just a stepping stone in who I am.

Lex Fridman (3:03:34.760)

So it's in the past to me.

Lex Fridman (3:03:37.180)

Like there's no shrine in my house

Travis Stevens (3:03:39.540)

that has like an Olympic medal in it.

Lex Fridman (3:03:41.720)

I can't even remember the last time I looked at it.

Lex Fridman (3:03:44.680)

So you're saying like the, all the stories,

Lex Fridman (3:03:47.700)

the skills along the way,

Travis Stevens (3:03:49.640)

that's like you right now sitting here is the shrine.

Lex Fridman (3:03:53.040)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (3:03:53.880)

The who you become along the journey

Lex Fridman (3:03:56.300)

is really what the prize is, right?

Travis Stevens (3:03:59.320)

Like when you think about any of them,

Lex Fridman (3:04:02.840)

most of the people that, you know,

Travis Stevens (3:04:05.520)

go through that depression after the games,

Lex Fridman (3:04:08.220)

it's because that is their shrine.

Travis Stevens (3:04:10.920)

Like that is who they've identified as.

Lex Fridman (3:04:13.080)

That is who they've told the world, the community,

Travis Stevens (3:04:16.280)

their friends, their family, that's how they've identified.

Lex Fridman (3:04:20.580)

I've identified as the person who perseveres,

Travis Stevens (3:04:23.220)

overcomes and accepts challenges.

Lex Fridman (3:04:28.400)

So like I, all those things are just like, you know,

Travis Stevens (3:04:32.160)

putting a suitcase off to the side

Lex Fridman (3:04:33.920)

and I'm onto the next great chapter thing

Travis Stevens (3:04:36.620)

that I'm trying to do.

Lex Fridman (3:04:38.280)

And it's both sad and cool that very few people

Travis Stevens (3:04:43.760)

in the world get to experience what it's like to be you.

Lex Fridman (3:04:47.060)

I mean, this level of having gone through that journey.

Travis Stevens (3:04:52.520)

Everyone has the opportunity to.

Lex Fridman (3:04:56.160)

Yeah, yeah.

Travis Stevens (3:04:58.720)

I mean, I've done a few difficult things in my life,

Lex Fridman (3:05:03.440)

but I gotta tell you, weight cuts and sauna.

Lex Fridman (3:05:07.120)

And I would tell people right now who are listening,

Lex Fridman (3:05:09.840)

like, don't go through that.

Lex Fridman (3:05:12.080)

And I think a lot of wrestlers, a lot of young judo players,

Lex Fridman (3:05:16.320)

a lot of young, like just combat sports people

Travis Stevens (3:05:19.560)

where weight classes are a thing,

Lex Fridman (3:05:23.840)

they almost take a sense of pride.

Travis Stevens (3:05:25.560)

Like when I hear them talking about like,

Lex Fridman (3:05:27.400)

oh, how much weight do you have to cut?

Travis Stevens (3:05:29.360)

If you have to cut a pound more,

Lex Fridman (3:05:30.640)

it's like you've accomplished more, like you're tougher.

Travis Stevens (3:05:33.040)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:05:33.880)

Like you're not.

Travis Stevens (3:05:35.040)

Like there's no trophies for that.

Lex Fridman (3:05:38.440)

You, whatever the reason, had a job to do

Lex Fridman (3:05:41.140)

and you got it done and that is truly inspiring,

Lex Fridman (3:05:44.640)

no matter how hard.

Travis Stevens (3:05:46.280)

That there's a big deep lesson to learn from that.

Lex Fridman (3:05:49.960)

Then you start getting to the specifics

Travis Stevens (3:05:51.600)

of whether you should weight cut or not.

Lex Fridman (3:05:53.280)

But if we don't, then most of the great things we have

Travis Stevens (3:05:57.040)

in this world, we wouldn't have.

Lex Fridman (3:05:58.800)

The reason we have many of the great things

Travis Stevens (3:06:00.680)

is because people did that weight cut.

Lex Fridman (3:06:02.900)

The equivalent of the weight cut

Travis Stevens (3:06:04.480)

for whatever the discipline, man.

Lex Fridman (3:06:06.480)

There's a difference between having to do it

Travis Stevens (3:06:10.040)

because you have to and you get through it,

Lex Fridman (3:06:12.600)

then setting yourself up to do that

Travis Stevens (3:06:15.800)

because you think it's the cool thing

Lex Fridman (3:06:18.620)

or the thing you're supposed to be doing

Travis Stevens (3:06:20.240)

in order to be successful.

Lex Fridman (3:06:22.280)

There are plenty of like two time Olympic medalist.

Travis Stevens (3:06:25.640)

I probably could have been a two time Olympic medalist

Lex Fridman (3:06:28.280)

had I not cut that much weight.

Travis Stevens (3:06:30.520)

I probably would have multiple world medals

Lex Fridman (3:06:32.720)

had I not cut that much weight

Travis Stevens (3:06:33.960)

because my body wouldn't have been that broken.

Lex Fridman (3:06:36.800)

There's always the other side of it.

Lex Fridman (3:06:38.140)

So just when you're looking at it,

Lex Fridman (3:06:40.320)

like I just hear it in like young kids,

Travis Stevens (3:06:43.720)

even some of my own, like when you hear them talk

Lex Fridman (3:06:45.800)

about like where their weight's at,

Travis Stevens (3:06:47.920)

they almost take a sense of pride

Lex Fridman (3:06:49.480)

on how much they have to lose

Travis Stevens (3:06:51.200)

because they hear stories like this.

Lex Fridman (3:06:53.540)

And it's like, that's not the takeaway.

Travis Stevens (3:06:56.000)

I did it because I had to.

Lex Fridman (3:06:59.040)

I was put in a situation where like,

Travis Stevens (3:07:01.560)

I may not have gone to this game

Lex Fridman (3:07:03.040)

had I moved up to 90 kilos

Travis Stevens (3:07:04.440)

because I wouldn't have had time to grow into the division.

Lex Fridman (3:07:07.800)

And then you get the job done.

Lex Fridman (3:07:09.080)

And then you get the job done.

Lex Fridman (3:07:10.160)

You're right, there's a very important difference.

Lex Fridman (3:07:14.280)

And that's also with sleep.

Lex Fridman (3:07:16.840)

That's what people talk to me about.

Travis Stevens (3:07:18.560)

There should not be any glorification of not sleeping.

Lex Fridman (3:07:21.760)

There should not be a glorification of cutting weight.

Lex Fridman (3:07:24.820)

But if that's on the way to your,

Lex Fridman (3:07:28.800)

whatever is that fire inside you

Travis Stevens (3:07:31.560)

that you know needs to get done, like the job at hand,

Lex Fridman (3:07:35.140)

if you need to sacrifice in some of those ways,

Travis Stevens (3:07:37.960)

you get the job done.

Lex Fridman (3:07:39.560)

Yeah, and the weight cut is an interesting one

Travis Stevens (3:07:42.760)

because it's different.

Lex Fridman (3:07:43.760)

I mean, you could speak to this.

Travis Stevens (3:07:46.300)

There's different sports

Lex Fridman (3:07:47.600)

in which the weight is more important than others.

Lex Fridman (3:07:50.320)

And there's different levels to this game.

Lex Fridman (3:07:52.840)

I think at the level you operated in,

Travis Stevens (3:07:54.960)

that was probably essential.

Lex Fridman (3:07:57.280)

Like there's huge games changed completely

Travis Stevens (3:07:59.560)

from 81 kg to 90 kg.

Lex Fridman (3:08:01.480)

It's a huge weight jump.

Travis Stevens (3:08:02.980)

It's, first of all, it's weight, but then the strategy,

Lex Fridman (3:08:05.820)

it's like so much changes the height

Lex Fridman (3:08:07.600)

and all those kinds of things.

Lex Fridman (3:08:08.560)

The physical, like people don't understand it,

Lex Fridman (3:08:11.060)

but the physical size of a 90 kilo judo player

Lex Fridman (3:08:14.040)

versus the physical size of an 81 kilo judo player,

Travis Stevens (3:08:17.320)

it's like putting a human in a human.

Lex Fridman (3:08:19.160)

Like there's enough space.

Travis Stevens (3:08:20.680)

That's not like, you could stand next to your friend

Lex Fridman (3:08:23.820)

who's 180 pounds and you could be 160

Lex Fridman (3:08:25.800)

and you guys could look identical.

Lex Fridman (3:08:27.160)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (3:08:28.000)

It is different when both the 90 kilo,

Lex Fridman (3:08:30.040)

100 kilo and 81 kilo both have 6% body fat

Lex Fridman (3:08:33.720)

and they're cutting into the class.

Lex Fridman (3:08:35.920)

And it always feels like there's more variety at 90 kilo

Travis Stevens (3:08:38.720)

because some of them are lanky and tall.

Lex Fridman (3:08:40.440)

Yeah, some are short and stocky.

Travis Stevens (3:08:42.960)

It's like 81 is more uniform, which I,

Lex Fridman (3:08:45.560)

but then the flip side of that is the,

Travis Stevens (3:08:48.080)

this is what I like in jiu jitsu, again,

Lex Fridman (3:08:50.080)

amateur competing against bigger guys.

Travis Stevens (3:08:53.360)

Like I love that more.

Lex Fridman (3:08:54.320)

I like cutting weight just so I'm slim.

Travis Stevens (3:08:56.760)

Like that's when I feel the best

Lex Fridman (3:08:57.800)

with the same thing that you mentioned.

Lex Fridman (3:08:59.480)

But like, I love going against 200, 220 that.

Lex Fridman (3:09:03.560)

Because in jiu jitsu,

Travis Stevens (3:09:04.880)

the weight doesn't get amplified in the sport.

Lex Fridman (3:09:08.440)

Like the weight is just the weight, right?

Travis Stevens (3:09:10.880)

If you can leg press 220 and you can bench 220,

Lex Fridman (3:09:15.960)

then yeah, you can train with a guy who's 220.

Travis Stevens (3:09:19.720)

That's easy.

Lex Fridman (3:09:20.680)

They're not gonna hurt you.

Lex Fridman (3:09:22.040)

And I mean, there is a truth that,

Lex Fridman (3:09:25.040)

lightweights and middleweights in jiu jitsu

Lex Fridman (3:09:27.520)

and the same is true for judo.

Lex Fridman (3:09:29.600)

It's just like a lot more of them.

Travis Stevens (3:09:31.240)

That means if you wanna be,

Lex Fridman (3:09:34.400)

you're just competing at a higher level.

Lex Fridman (3:09:37.280)

So like, there's much more variety of games.

Lex Fridman (3:09:40.440)

The level is much higher.

Lex Fridman (3:09:41.720)

So you're taking on a bigger challenge,

Lex Fridman (3:09:43.880)

even if you're like, have a weight advantage.

Lex Fridman (3:09:47.440)

So those are all decisions you have to kind of make.

Lex Fridman (3:09:49.840)

And certainly in jiu jitsu,

Travis Stevens (3:09:51.280)

people that are weight cutting are silly.

Lex Fridman (3:09:52.760)

I mean, that's the natural beginner thing to do

Travis Stevens (3:09:55.200)

is to feel the way the nervousness

Lex Fridman (3:09:58.840)

about competition expresses itself

Travis Stevens (3:10:01.120)

is through the desire to be as light as possible,

Lex Fridman (3:10:04.920)

which is the totally wrong desire to have.

Travis Stevens (3:10:07.840)

Right, like when you look at me now,

Lex Fridman (3:10:11.560)

I'm probably like 230, right?

Lex Fridman (3:10:16.280)

But I probably have the strength

Lex Fridman (3:10:18.000)

of a 70 kilo judo player, right?

Travis Stevens (3:10:21.880)

The weight doesn't really do much.

Lex Fridman (3:10:24.360)

Yeah, I mean, you have the same thing with wrestling.

Travis Stevens (3:10:27.440)

The skinny guys, the skinny you

Lex Fridman (3:10:30.200)

that we're looking at there,

Travis Stevens (3:10:31.640)

just the amount of power in that person is fascinating.

Lex Fridman (3:10:34.960)

Because it doesn't look like,

Travis Stevens (3:10:35.880)

you have some muscle, but it doesn't look,

Lex Fridman (3:10:38.240)

but I've felt the power of some of those people.

Travis Stevens (3:10:40.480)

Yeah, it's scary.

Lex Fridman (3:10:42.280)

Yeah, it's different.

Travis Stevens (3:10:44.640)

That's the best way I can describe it is like scary.

Lex Fridman (3:10:46.840)

It's like, oh shit, again, it's the food chain.

Travis Stevens (3:10:49.640)

You're not at the top of the food chain.

Lex Fridman (3:10:52.680)

That's the natural feeling

Travis Stevens (3:10:54.040)

when you go with some judo people.

Lex Fridman (3:10:56.480)

What's your sense about this recent Olympics?

Lex Fridman (3:10:58.920)

What stands out to you as,

Lex Fridman (3:11:02.000)

so like Teddy Rene who was on a big run for a long time,

Travis Stevens (3:11:05.960)

many consider him to be one of the greatest judo players

Lex Fridman (3:11:08.240)

of all time, two time Olympic gold medalist

Lex Fridman (3:11:12.880)

and two time Olympic bronze medalist of four Olympics.

Lex Fridman (3:11:17.880)

Not counting like team stuff,

Travis Stevens (3:11:19.840)

just doing individual and then like 10 time world champ.

Lex Fridman (3:11:24.600)

Yeah, I'm not sure how they're gonna catalog

Travis Stevens (3:11:26.320)

that team event.

Lex Fridman (3:11:27.880)

Like are they all technically Olympic champions

Lex Fridman (3:11:29.880)

or is France an Olympic champion?

Lex Fridman (3:11:32.040)

No, they're all technically Olympic champions,

Lex Fridman (3:11:33.840)

but I'm gonna ignore that.

Lex Fridman (3:11:35.760)

Is that how they're gonna classify it now?

Travis Stevens (3:11:37.560)

According, oh, sorry, according to Wikipedia,

Lex Fridman (3:11:40.160)

like according to the internet.

Travis Stevens (3:11:41.960)

I don't know, according to IGF or whatever.

Lex Fridman (3:11:43.960)

Because some of those players never won a match.

Travis Stevens (3:11:47.640)

They just filled a spot.

Lex Fridman (3:11:49.640)

Oh, that's even a starker example.

Travis Stevens (3:11:52.120)

Oh, that's sad.

Lex Fridman (3:11:53.880)

You know, they lost in the individual

Lex Fridman (3:11:55.640)

and then they also lost in the team.

Lex Fridman (3:11:57.880)

And so.

Travis Stevens (3:11:59.720)

Well, it's interesting because in the case of Teddy,

Lex Fridman (3:12:04.640)

he was important to the win against Japan in this Olympics.

Lex Fridman (3:12:08.720)

So like in the team event.

Lex Fridman (3:12:11.200)

So like, I feel like you should put that in the equation

Lex Fridman (3:12:14.960)

to say who won gold, right?

Lex Fridman (3:12:16.880)

It does feel like he won gold in the team

Travis Stevens (3:12:20.280)

because he carried the team.

Lex Fridman (3:12:21.880)

Well, you have like Nomura at 60 kilos from Japan,

Travis Stevens (3:12:25.480)

three time Olympic gold medalist, no team event.

Lex Fridman (3:12:29.160)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:12:31.000)

Are you gonna weigh Teddy's team event?

Lex Fridman (3:12:33.800)

No, no, we're not arguing this, of course.

Travis Stevens (3:12:35.800)

No, I'm just wondering how like the IGF,

Lex Fridman (3:12:37.960)

like when you look at a player stat,

Travis Stevens (3:12:40.360)

is it gonna be like team gold medal for the Olympics

Lex Fridman (3:12:44.280)

versus like their own personal gold medal?

Travis Stevens (3:12:47.040)

Yeah, I think in sports, we have to be brutally honest.

Lex Fridman (3:12:51.600)

And I think, hopefully this doesn't piss off people.

Travis Stevens (3:12:55.400)

I hope it does.

Lex Fridman (3:12:56.240)

But judo is an individual sport.

Travis Stevens (3:12:59.160)

It's honestly just that one athlete,

Lex Fridman (3:13:01.600)

maybe the athlete and coach, right?

Travis Stevens (3:13:04.160)

If you look at the big, big picture,

Lex Fridman (3:13:06.120)

but there's no team in judo.

Travis Stevens (3:13:08.920)

That's the beauty of combat sports.

Lex Fridman (3:13:10.800)

That's the honesty of it.

Travis Stevens (3:13:12.560)

That's the brutality of losing to another human being

Lex Fridman (3:13:16.160)

in a combat sport.

Travis Stevens (3:13:17.400)

That's why it's so damn embarrassing when you get slammed

Lex Fridman (3:13:20.480)

is because it's like, there's no team

Travis Stevens (3:13:23.280)

to like carry some of that responsibility.

Lex Fridman (3:13:26.840)

It's all on you and you suck.

Travis Stevens (3:13:28.960)

That's why you lost.

Lex Fridman (3:13:30.240)

There's that weight.

Lex Fridman (3:13:31.360)

And that's why it's like magical.

Lex Fridman (3:13:32.920)

It's not like soccer.

Travis Stevens (3:13:34.760)

It's not like basketball.

Lex Fridman (3:13:37.440)

Yeah, I couldn't play team sports

Travis Stevens (3:13:38.760)

because if one of my teammates

Lex Fridman (3:13:40.560)

wasn't doing their job correctly,

Travis Stevens (3:13:42.440)

I would go play their position.

Lex Fridman (3:13:44.400)

I'm gonna do it better than you.

Travis Stevens (3:13:45.560)

Yeah, but that, you know,

Lex Fridman (3:13:46.720)

some of the greatest leaders of teams also do that.

Lex Fridman (3:13:48.960)

Michael Jordan is like that, right?

Lex Fridman (3:13:50.320)

I mean, it's like with your actions,

Travis Stevens (3:13:54.280)

you raised the level for everybody.

Lex Fridman (3:13:57.800)

Like excellence is expected

Lex Fridman (3:13:59.320)

and therefore everybody needs to step up.

Lex Fridman (3:14:00.920)

So some of the greatest, I would say,

Travis Stevens (3:14:04.000)

team leaders are individualists at heart.

Lex Fridman (3:14:07.280)

But it's okay.

Lex Fridman (3:14:08.120)

So Teddy, I think 10 time world champion,

Lex Fridman (3:14:10.000)

non team, regular.

Travis Stevens (3:14:13.280)

It's a big number,

Lex Fridman (3:14:14.120)

but I think he has some like open weight categories in there.

Travis Stevens (3:14:16.520)

Open weight, right, right.

Lex Fridman (3:14:17.720)

I mean, you can count those, right?

Travis Stevens (3:14:19.520)

I mean, that's interesting.

Lex Fridman (3:14:21.040)

It's the same division twice.

Travis Stevens (3:14:22.840)

It's the same division twice.

Lex Fridman (3:14:23.920)

That's right.

Travis Stevens (3:14:24.760)

One day after another.

Lex Fridman (3:14:25.600)

Yeah, that's right.

Travis Stevens (3:14:26.440)

I don't know if I wanna count that, yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:14:28.840)

Well, I mean, that's one of the reasons

Travis Stevens (3:14:30.840)

people don't usually put heavyweights in judo

Lex Fridman (3:14:35.200)

as like the greatest of all time,

Travis Stevens (3:14:37.800)

because the level of competition is lower.

Lex Fridman (3:14:40.080)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (3:14:41.800)

But anyway, he did lose in this match

Lex Fridman (3:14:44.640)

to a young Russian, Tamerlan Bashev.

Travis Stevens (3:14:51.320)

Match also not on the internet.

Lex Fridman (3:14:53.800)

Thank you Olympics.

Travis Stevens (3:14:55.160)

I am definitely going to go on some rants on the internet.

Lex Fridman (3:14:58.200)

I love it.

Travis Stevens (3:14:59.560)

As a fan of Olympics,

Lex Fridman (3:15:01.440)

I feel like this definitely needs to change moving forward.

Travis Stevens (3:15:05.240)

Like every single major Olympic event,

Lex Fridman (3:15:07.400)

I also like random sports like weightlifting,

Travis Stevens (3:15:10.120)

even though I don't do Olympic weightlifting.

Lex Fridman (3:15:11.760)

It's fun just to watch.

Travis Stevens (3:15:12.800)

Fun to watch such high level of excellence.

Lex Fridman (3:15:16.760)

And the fact that we can't just fricking watch the full,

Travis Stevens (3:15:20.560)

like each nicely categorized event is really heartbreaking

Lex Fridman (3:15:23.880)

in judo, in Olympic weightlifting,

Travis Stevens (3:15:26.240)

in track and gymnastics, all of that.

Lex Fridman (3:15:28.600)

Anyway, so Teddy lost.

Lex Fridman (3:15:32.320)

I mean, does that stand out to you?

Lex Fridman (3:15:33.960)

If you were to like recap the things

Travis Stevens (3:15:35.800)

that you remember from this Olympics.

Lex Fridman (3:15:37.520)

I picked him losing already.

Travis Stevens (3:15:39.440)

Like in my predictions.

Lex Fridman (3:15:41.200)

Lose which, where?

Lex Fridman (3:15:42.560)

That match or just in general somewhere?

Lex Fridman (3:15:44.760)

In the final.

Travis Stevens (3:15:45.600)

In the final, you thought.

Lex Fridman (3:15:46.600)

Yeah, final or was it semi?

Travis Stevens (3:15:48.440)

When I looked at his draw

Lex Fridman (3:15:49.640)

because he decided not to compete throughout the quad

Lex Fridman (3:15:52.760)

and do like the bare minimum to go,

Lex Fridman (3:15:56.400)

because of his age,

Travis Stevens (3:15:57.520)

I didn't think he would have enough energy

Lex Fridman (3:16:01.320)

to battle his way through the draw that he had.

Lex Fridman (3:16:04.800)

And sure enough, he didn't.

Lex Fridman (3:16:06.400)

He felt earlier than I thought,

Lex Fridman (3:16:07.800)

but he's not the young athletic person he used to be.

Lex Fridman (3:16:13.400)

And when they changed the rules to judo,

Travis Stevens (3:16:16.400)

they allowed people to take people

Lex Fridman (3:16:18.160)

into really, really deep waters,

Travis Stevens (3:16:21.400)

which you saw at this Olympics,

Lex Fridman (3:16:22.760)

which did it ruin the sport or did it not?

Travis Stevens (3:16:27.960)

Like, I'm not sure,

Lex Fridman (3:16:30.160)

but it was definitely difficult to watch.

Travis Stevens (3:16:32.240)

Would you put him at the greatest of all time

Lex Fridman (3:16:35.440)

or asked another way,

Travis Stevens (3:16:36.680)

like who do you think is the greatest judo player

Lex Fridman (3:16:38.440)

of all time?

Travis Stevens (3:16:39.800)

He's definitely not the greatest judo player,

Lex Fridman (3:16:42.840)

but he's definitely the best competitor.

Lex Fridman (3:16:45.560)

What's the difference in judo player and competitor?

Lex Fridman (3:16:48.160)

There's an ability to like do the act of judo

Travis Stevens (3:16:52.600)

of like throwing, pinning, arm locking

Lex Fridman (3:16:55.960)

versus can you win a judo match?

Travis Stevens (3:16:58.720)

Right, like when you look at somebody like Nomura

Lex Fridman (3:17:02.640)

who like threw everyone he fought,

Travis Stevens (3:17:05.480)

threw three Olympics, multiple world championships,

Lex Fridman (3:17:09.040)

multiple things, like that's a pure judo player.

Travis Stevens (3:17:12.960)

In the essence of judo,

Lex Fridman (3:17:14.640)

he can throw, pin or arm lock

Travis Stevens (3:17:16.480)

just about anybody he steps on the mat with during his time.

Lex Fridman (3:17:21.080)

Teddy tended to, when you look at his judo,

Travis Stevens (3:17:25.440)

because of his size,

Lex Fridman (3:17:27.320)

again, it's just because he's in the heavyweight category,

Travis Stevens (3:17:30.280)

he was so much bigger, so much stronger,

Lex Fridman (3:17:34.280)

people just couldn't handle it.

Lex Fridman (3:17:35.920)

And you would see really good judo players just break.

Lex Fridman (3:17:39.760)

Like they could hang in there for a little bit,

Lex Fridman (3:17:41.960)

but eventually his size, like you can't control that weight.

Lex Fridman (3:17:45.160)

Weight moves weight.

Lex Fridman (3:17:46.120)

And when you have to use all your strength

Lex Fridman (3:17:48.040)

to keep him upright and off of you,

Travis Stevens (3:17:51.560)

your muscles just give out

Lex Fridman (3:17:52.760)

because you don't have somebody of that stature

Lex Fridman (3:17:55.800)

and that skill to train with, to train those muscles.

Lex Fridman (3:17:59.040)

So you're thinking more like those 73, 81, 90 kg people

Travis Stevens (3:18:04.160)

that just stand in the pocket and just give everything.

Lex Fridman (3:18:08.160)

Like what comes to my mind is like a Koga.

Travis Stevens (3:18:11.120)

Koga.

Lex Fridman (3:18:11.960)

You know, a Nomura who's a 60 kilo guy,

Lex Fridman (3:18:14.200)

but again, like his dynamics

Lex Fridman (3:18:16.560)

and how long he was dominant for, like it just.

Lex Fridman (3:18:20.600)

Do you put value to like epic throws,

Lex Fridman (3:18:24.840)

like singular moments of greatness?

Travis Stevens (3:18:28.040)

If it's against a noteworthy player

Lex Fridman (3:18:31.760)

in a noteworthy position.

Travis Stevens (3:18:34.160)

There are a lot of highlights of people

Lex Fridman (3:18:36.840)

that are good judo players,

Lex Fridman (3:18:38.440)

but their highlights are of, you know,

Lex Fridman (3:18:41.120)

scrubs on the IJF circuit.

Travis Stevens (3:18:43.960)

Right.

Lex Fridman (3:18:44.800)

It's like, great, the Japanese guy threw the guy

Travis Stevens (3:18:47.240)

from, you know, Senegal free poem.

Lex Fridman (3:18:51.680)

Great.

Travis Stevens (3:18:52.520)

We kind of expected that.

Lex Fridman (3:18:53.800)

You took the world number one

Travis Stevens (3:18:54.920)

against the 330th person in the world.

Lex Fridman (3:18:57.840)

What'd you think was gonna happen?

Travis Stevens (3:18:59.360)

Like when I see those highlights like thrown around

Lex Fridman (3:19:01.920)

like social media, I'm like, that's not a highlight.

Travis Stevens (3:19:05.800)

They might as well have just been at the dojo

Lex Fridman (3:19:07.760)

like practice and throws.

Travis Stevens (3:19:09.440)

If you look at the like top 10 list for judo,

Lex Fridman (3:19:12.520)

Kano always comes up, you know, as.

Lex Fridman (3:19:15.560)

But he's not somebody that I don't think

Lex Fridman (3:19:18.200)

his results are there,

Lex Fridman (3:19:19.840)

but you don't really know how he got there.

Lex Fridman (3:19:23.640)

So it's hard for me to like, I can't see his judo.

Lex Fridman (3:19:27.320)

So I'm not sure.

Lex Fridman (3:19:28.320)

Kano, by the way, is the founder of judo

Travis Stevens (3:19:29.880)

for people who don't,

Lex Fridman (3:19:30.720)

who are considered to be the founder of judo.

Travis Stevens (3:19:32.480)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:19:33.320)

The sport evolves.

Travis Stevens (3:19:35.080)

The players that are like,

Lex Fridman (3:19:36.200)

if you took champions from the past

Lex Fridman (3:19:37.960)

and you fought them against the players of today,

Lex Fridman (3:19:40.560)

they're, it's not happening.

Lex Fridman (3:19:43.000)

And that goes with anything, right?

Lex Fridman (3:19:44.840)

So every time you think of like,

Travis Stevens (3:19:46.200)

who's the best of all time,

Lex Fridman (3:19:48.040)

it's probably somebody within a generation

Travis Stevens (3:19:50.080)

or two of today.

Lex Fridman (3:19:51.640)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (3:19:52.480)

If I'm gonna pick my top three, let's say,

Lex Fridman (3:19:55.520)

top three, and I would go generationally speaking,

Travis Stevens (3:19:59.560)

I would pick Ono for today,

Lex Fridman (3:20:02.760)

probably Iliadis for like my timeframe,

Travis Stevens (3:20:06.160)

like the, from a developmental standpoint.

Lex Fridman (3:20:09.800)

And then I'd probably go Koga.

Lex Fridman (3:20:11.720)

And then before Koga, I'd probably go Nomura.

Lex Fridman (3:20:14.360)

As like the person of that generation

Travis Stevens (3:20:17.320)

that people like,

Lex Fridman (3:20:20.320)

as a whole in judo respected.

Travis Stevens (3:20:23.160)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:20:24.000)

Well, in the case of,

Travis Stevens (3:20:25.120)

I wonder if people feared Koga.

Lex Fridman (3:20:27.280)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:20:28.240)

Yeah?

Lex Fridman (3:20:29.320)

Like you're, that little guy's gonna get under you.

Lex Fridman (3:20:32.280)

And you're gonna go for a ride.

Lex Fridman (3:20:33.720)

You know, he was 78 kilos

Travis Stevens (3:20:35.440)

when he took second at the All Japan's,

Lex Fridman (3:20:37.160)

which is an open weight class.

Travis Stevens (3:20:38.920)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:20:39.800)

You know, like he,

Travis Stevens (3:20:41.480)

he could throw down with anybody any weight class.

Lex Fridman (3:20:44.200)

He still went.

Travis Stevens (3:20:45.240)

He was one of the early people

Lex Fridman (3:20:46.760)

that planted the seed of judo,

Travis Stevens (3:20:49.360)

love of judo in you.

Lex Fridman (3:20:50.200)

It's like that.

Travis Stevens (3:20:51.040)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:20:51.880)

And when I looked at him,

Travis Stevens (3:20:52.720)

like that was how like I wanted my judo to be portrayed.

Lex Fridman (3:20:57.480)

That style.

Travis Stevens (3:20:58.920)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:20:59.920)

And then Iliadis, Iliadis, you just like,

Travis Stevens (3:21:02.360)

I mean, you have a similar attitude as him.

Lex Fridman (3:21:04.560)

So you just like the way he carries it.

Travis Stevens (3:21:05.400)

That's why we get along.

Lex Fridman (3:21:09.400)

You guys hang out.

Travis Stevens (3:21:10.240)

I mean, I'd love to see that conversation.

Lex Fridman (3:21:12.200)

I remember when we were talking about like his coaching,

Lex Fridman (3:21:15.160)

I was like, why didn't you take this team?

Lex Fridman (3:21:17.880)

Or like, why'd you pick this team?

Lex Fridman (3:21:19.280)

And he's like, I can't work with those people.

Lex Fridman (3:21:21.480)

Like those people are weak for children.

Travis Stevens (3:21:23.920)

Like they don't know how to train hard.

Lex Fridman (3:21:25.680)

I love that guy.

Lex Fridman (3:21:27.680)

What about Ono?

Lex Fridman (3:21:28.520)

Cause he was competing in this Olympics.

Lex Fridman (3:21:30.360)

He got gold in this Olympics, right?

Lex Fridman (3:21:33.280)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (3:21:34.120)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:21:34.960)

He lost in the team tournament though.

Travis Stevens (3:21:36.040)

I think he just didn't care.

Lex Fridman (3:21:37.240)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (3:21:38.080)

He just really wanted to throw that guy.

Lex Fridman (3:21:39.240)

He like throws everybody.

Travis Stevens (3:21:41.000)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:21:41.840)

So he's, he represents the thing you're mentioning.

Travis Stevens (3:21:44.960)

I signed up to the judo fanatics, best of Ono.

Lex Fridman (3:21:49.200)

Is there something that stands out to you about him

Travis Stevens (3:21:51.480)

that's especially you find beautiful,

Lex Fridman (3:21:53.720)

like, or powerful about his technique?

Travis Stevens (3:21:57.880)

His adaptability to the situations

Lex Fridman (3:22:00.440)

and understanding of like what needs to happen

Travis Stevens (3:22:05.080)

in order to throw these people.

Lex Fridman (3:22:07.200)

I specifically watched a match with his

Lex Fridman (3:22:10.360)

and I was going to do a breakdown video on it because.

Lex Fridman (3:22:13.560)

Is there a match, do you remember what it is?

Travis Stevens (3:22:15.160)

It's him versus Garvey of Hungary.

Lex Fridman (3:22:21.000)

Is he good at gripping?

Lex Fridman (3:22:21.880)

So we're watching the match against Hungary.

Lex Fridman (3:22:25.480)

So at the one minute, so right here, coming up.

Travis Stevens (3:22:28.200)

I've heard he's freakishly strong.

Lex Fridman (3:22:29.920)

I've never had the ability to train with him.

Lex Fridman (3:22:32.600)

So I'm not.

Lex Fridman (3:22:33.760)

Obviously he looks super skinny.

Lex Fridman (3:22:36.880)

But when you see him without his gi jacket on,

Lex Fridman (3:22:39.000)

like he's a jacked dude,

Travis Stevens (3:22:41.720)

which is uncharacteristic of a Japanese player

Lex Fridman (3:22:44.800)

from back in the day, in a way changed all that.

Travis Stevens (3:22:47.720)

He was like, we're going to get physical

Lex Fridman (3:22:49.200)

to compete with the Europeans.

Lex Fridman (3:22:50.560)

That's another one of the greats, right?

Lex Fridman (3:22:52.160)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (3:22:53.000)

He doesn't get mentioned enough.

Lex Fridman (3:23:01.400)

And he's a righty here, yeah, okay.

Lex Fridman (3:23:04.320)

And this is where he started setting it up.

Lex Fridman (3:23:06.280)

It's like, you can see he was standing

Travis Stevens (3:23:07.760)

in like a left handed stance and then he changes.

Lex Fridman (3:23:11.840)

So he grips almost like a double sleeve,

Travis Stevens (3:23:16.720)

not a double sleeve.

Lex Fridman (3:23:17.560)

He holds the tricep.

Travis Stevens (3:23:18.400)

The tricep.

Lex Fridman (3:23:19.240)

And the front sleeve standing like a lefty.

Lex Fridman (3:23:23.040)

And no body grip.

Lex Fridman (3:23:24.720)

Just tricep and sleeve.

Lex Fridman (3:23:27.080)

And that was like the biggest whip

Lex Fridman (3:23:30.160)

and twist of a nutrimata I've ever seen.

Travis Stevens (3:23:32.800)

Yeah, he doesn't actually lift him off the floor.

Lex Fridman (3:23:35.400)

And if you look at it in like slow motion almost,

Travis Stevens (3:23:42.240)

yeah, let's, yeah, there we go.

Lex Fridman (3:23:45.760)

The Hungarian player was like 100% defense

Lex Fridman (3:23:48.920)

and he still did this, right?

Lex Fridman (3:23:51.600)

So right here, like press pause.

Travis Stevens (3:23:54.920)

This is like an identifier if you're trying

Lex Fridman (3:23:59.240)

to like learn judo and figure out how to set it up.

Travis Stevens (3:24:02.240)

Because knowing how to get to the point right before

Lex Fridman (3:24:05.560)

you pull the trigger is probably the most important.

Lex Fridman (3:24:08.480)

So when we watch this play out,

Lex Fridman (3:24:10.680)

what Ono's gonna do is he's gonna pivot

Travis Stevens (3:24:12.640)

off his right leg right here.

Lex Fridman (3:24:14.480)

He's gonna back step with his left

Lex Fridman (3:24:16.160)

and it's gonna pull Ungarvi's front leg

Lex Fridman (3:24:19.000)

all the way forward into what we would call

Travis Stevens (3:24:20.720)

like a neutral square stance.

Lex Fridman (3:24:23.080)

So he plants hard.

Lex Fridman (3:24:25.200)

And look at Ono.

Lex Fridman (3:24:26.040)

Oh, there's an interesting pull with the,

Travis Stevens (3:24:27.160)

oh no, it's not a tricep.

Lex Fridman (3:24:28.240)

He almost like, it starts with the tricep

Lex Fridman (3:24:30.920)

and he like collects the gear or something like that.

Lex Fridman (3:24:32.680)

But it's still above the elbow

Lex Fridman (3:24:34.160)

because you can see the bend, right?

Lex Fridman (3:24:36.320)

And right here, see how he never put,

Travis Stevens (3:24:38.600)

back it up a little bit.

Lex Fridman (3:24:41.800)

This is kind of like one of those things,

Travis Stevens (3:24:43.720)

yeah, pause it right there.

Lex Fridman (3:24:45.440)

So when he puts his right foot down,

Travis Stevens (3:24:47.400)

he's pulling so hard with his back

Lex Fridman (3:24:50.600)

that when Ono goes to put his left foot down,

Travis Stevens (3:24:53.080)

it never touches the mat.

Lex Fridman (3:24:55.040)

But by putting his left foot back,

Travis Stevens (3:24:57.400)

it actually pulls Ungarvi's foot forward.

Lex Fridman (3:24:59.680)

And so he's able to speed up his throw

Travis Stevens (3:25:02.360)

by just continuing that motion back,

Lex Fridman (3:25:04.800)

which what was supposed to have been a step

Travis Stevens (3:25:07.840)

turned out to just, in the middle of the action,

Lex Fridman (3:25:11.720)

he makes a split second decision

Travis Stevens (3:25:13.360)

before putting the foot down to just continue.

Lex Fridman (3:25:15.960)

Cause he recognizes that feel in his hands.

Lex Fridman (3:25:18.640)

And so it's like, it never, it's a swing.

Lex Fridman (3:25:20.880)

Like he never touches the ground with his left foot.

Travis Stevens (3:25:22.800)

It never started as like a big swing to a back step.

Lex Fridman (3:25:26.000)

He changed his mind partway through.

Lex Fridman (3:25:28.040)

So it's right there, he wants to take a step.

Lex Fridman (3:25:30.640)

And then he goes, nope, he's bringing that foot forward.

Travis Stevens (3:25:32.720)

I'm just going to go for it.

Lex Fridman (3:25:34.160)

Wait, is he full?

Travis Stevens (3:25:36.440)

Full air.

Lex Fridman (3:25:37.760)

Look at that.

Travis Stevens (3:25:38.720)

Boom, boom.

Lex Fridman (3:25:39.560)

And look at, if you go a few more steps forward right there,

Travis Stevens (3:25:43.160)

his hip is the same height as Ungarvi shoulder.

Lex Fridman (3:25:48.120)

Because he's leaning so far into the throw

Travis Stevens (3:25:51.240)

with his body weight.

Lex Fridman (3:25:53.000)

And he's allowing that tricep grip to rotate.

Travis Stevens (3:25:56.240)

That's going to draw Ungarvi forward.

Lex Fridman (3:25:58.800)

And now when you pause it right here,

Travis Stevens (3:26:01.160)

you think about the sheer physics

Lex Fridman (3:26:03.440)

to like get your body into this position.

Travis Stevens (3:26:07.040)

Jimmy and I were so like,

Lex Fridman (3:26:09.160)

when we saw this for the first time,

Travis Stevens (3:26:10.800)

we tried to just stand like that and we couldn't do it.

Lex Fridman (3:26:13.640)

His left foot is pointing straight ahead.

Travis Stevens (3:26:17.160)

His chest is perpendicular to that foot

Lex Fridman (3:26:19.760)

or parallel with it, right?

Lex Fridman (3:26:21.320)

And his head is by his foot.

Lex Fridman (3:26:22.760)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:26:23.600)

Is that only possible in the midst of a throw?

Lex Fridman (3:26:25.520)

Do you think he works on making like?

Travis Stevens (3:26:27.520)

I think he's done this particular throw,

Lex Fridman (3:26:30.360)

not this style of it, but Uchi Mata so much

Travis Stevens (3:26:33.560)

that his body has adapted to be able to do this.

Lex Fridman (3:26:37.440)

So when people are trying to learn

Lex Fridman (3:26:38.920)

and like break down videos,

Lex Fridman (3:26:41.000)

they don't understand like the power he has

Lex Fridman (3:26:45.040)

and what we call end range motion.

Lex Fridman (3:26:48.560)

Yeah, look at that.

Lex Fridman (3:26:49.400)

So like look at the full range of motion he takes, right?

Lex Fridman (3:26:52.360)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (3:26:53.200)

His left foot swings all the way around

Lex Fridman (3:26:56.400)

and the torso starts like at three oclock

Lex Fridman (3:27:00.040)

and it goes all the way around

Lex Fridman (3:27:02.600)

like almost back to the three oclock.

Travis Stevens (3:27:04.720)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:27:05.560)

Like, like what?

Lex Fridman (3:27:08.040)

And he never lifts his leg above his hip.

Lex Fridman (3:27:12.840)

And the crazy part is he never fell over during any of it.

Travis Stevens (3:27:16.400)

Yeah, look at that.

Lex Fridman (3:27:17.560)

Stayed on his feet.

Lex Fridman (3:27:19.120)

What's he doing?

Lex Fridman (3:27:19.960)

Is that a matter of pride or just?

Travis Stevens (3:27:24.480)

I think that's just habit.

Lex Fridman (3:27:26.520)

The way the forces work, like he can just stay up.

Travis Stevens (3:27:31.960)

That's one of the most beautiful throws I've ever seen.

Lex Fridman (3:27:35.680)

There's so much wrong with it, but it worked.

Travis Stevens (3:27:39.640)

It worked.

Lex Fridman (3:27:40.480)

Because when you think about,

Travis Stevens (3:27:41.320)

remember what we talked about the very beginning,

Lex Fridman (3:27:42.640)

like he's got to get his center of gravity under his.

Travis Stevens (3:27:45.600)

Well, here's one of the top players in the world

Lex Fridman (3:27:47.200)

throwing another top player in the world

Travis Stevens (3:27:48.920)

with his hip at that guy's shoulder height

Lex Fridman (3:27:51.240)

and it's still working, it's.

Travis Stevens (3:27:55.320)

Okay, so he, this generation, he could be the great.

Lex Fridman (3:27:58.480)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:27:59.320)

And like he switched a lot of those details

Lex Fridman (3:28:02.440)

of the throw in the middle.

Travis Stevens (3:28:03.960)

In the middle.

Lex Fridman (3:28:04.800)

And that only is, that means he's probably what,

Travis Stevens (3:28:07.160)

like a hundred thousand times that throw has happened.

Lex Fridman (3:28:09.600)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (3:28:11.280)

I saw you were into chess recently.

Lex Fridman (3:28:12.880)

So you're like me, a bit of a beginner in chess.

Travis Stevens (3:28:16.640)

You're part of launching the website Effective Chess.

Lex Fridman (3:28:20.440)

So I got to ask, maybe it's a personal question,

Lex Fridman (3:28:23.000)

but do you have advice to yourself

Lex Fridman (3:28:25.400)

and to other beginners in exploring chess

Lex Fridman (3:28:28.400)

of how to one, have fun and two, to start getting good?

Lex Fridman (3:28:31.680)

It's nice to see like Olympic caliber athlete

Travis Stevens (3:28:35.360)

take on a difficult task with a beginner's mind.

Lex Fridman (3:28:40.600)

So like, what's that process like?

Travis Stevens (3:28:42.760)

I'm a huge fan of just learning new things in general.

Lex Fridman (3:28:48.000)

Right, like when I left Judo,

Travis Stevens (3:28:50.400)

like I took a job as marketing for Fuji Sports

Lex Fridman (3:28:55.520)

and I was getting frustrated with designers.

Lex Fridman (3:28:58.280)

So I learned Photoshop.

Lex Fridman (3:29:00.760)

I also got angry with the photographer.

Lex Fridman (3:29:02.600)

So now I take all the photos too,

Lex Fridman (3:29:05.000)

just because I don't mind learning.

Travis Stevens (3:29:07.040)

I've spent my entire Judo career learning all the time,

Lex Fridman (3:29:11.880)

like adding new techniques,

Travis Stevens (3:29:13.120)

finding new ways, practicing, developing.

Lex Fridman (3:29:16.560)

And so when it comes to chess,

Travis Stevens (3:29:18.560)

I treat it just like I do anything else.

Lex Fridman (3:29:20.840)

I just stick to one plan

Lex Fridman (3:29:23.040)

and I learn all the ins and outs of that one plan.

Lex Fridman (3:29:26.600)

And then I develop another plan, right?

Travis Stevens (3:29:29.520)

Like I might practice like a London opening, for example,

Lex Fridman (3:29:33.200)

and just, I don't even care if I win or lose.

Travis Stevens (3:29:35.800)

I just wanna figure out how I'm gonna lose

Lex Fridman (3:29:38.960)

and then figure out how I'm gonna win.

Lex Fridman (3:29:40.520)

And once I know that position is now done,

Lex Fridman (3:29:43.840)

then I start with another position.

Lex Fridman (3:29:46.400)

And then once I figured out how I'm gonna lose

Lex Fridman (3:29:48.480)

and how I'm gonna win,

Travis Stevens (3:29:49.760)

the next thing I do is I don't go to a third.

Lex Fridman (3:29:52.120)

I figure out the bridge between the two.

Travis Stevens (3:29:55.320)

Like at what point during my openings

Lex Fridman (3:29:57.120)

can I transition back into this opening?

Travis Stevens (3:29:59.560)

Right, so like you have like some basic openings

Lex Fridman (3:30:03.000)

and you wanna see how they go wrong,

Lex Fridman (3:30:04.640)

how they go right, all the different ways.

Lex Fridman (3:30:06.120)

And then that starts to solidify a higher level concept

Travis Stevens (3:30:09.480)

of that particular opening

Lex Fridman (3:30:10.520)

and you start to stitch together the concepts.

Travis Stevens (3:30:12.320)

The concepts together,

Lex Fridman (3:30:13.440)

cause being able to go from one to another

Lex Fridman (3:30:15.600)

and then back and forth is part of the reasons

Lex Fridman (3:30:19.600)

why like I was successful at judo

Travis Stevens (3:30:21.440)

is just because everything I do,

Lex Fridman (3:30:25.240)

at some point it touches that spider web

Travis Stevens (3:30:27.680)

of like being able to get from one area to another.

Lex Fridman (3:30:30.740)

We refer to it as like a toolbox, right?

Travis Stevens (3:30:32.480)

You need more tools in your toolbox.

Lex Fridman (3:30:34.600)

But if you're always grabbing the wrong tool

Travis Stevens (3:30:36.280)

for that job, then you're just not gonna have success.

Lex Fridman (3:30:40.320)

I actually forgot to ask,

Travis Stevens (3:30:41.320)

you mentioned a few greatest chess players of all time

Lex Fridman (3:30:44.280)

and I noticed you didn't mention Vladimir Putin.

Travis Stevens (3:30:47.040)

I gotta ask you about his judo.

Lex Fridman (3:30:50.800)

Do you by chance know much about his judo?

Lex Fridman (3:30:53.800)

What do you think about a president of a major nation

Lex Fridman (3:30:58.320)

being a judo black belt?

Lex Fridman (3:30:59.680)

And I think from what I've seen, pretty good at it.

Lex Fridman (3:31:03.080)

I think it shows, you know, if he actually got it,

Travis Stevens (3:31:09.240)

like let's go with that premise of like he earned it.

Lex Fridman (3:31:13.240)

Right?

Travis Stevens (3:31:14.320)

That just shows like a level of like physical persistence

Lex Fridman (3:31:19.240)

and mental fortitude to be able to like,

Travis Stevens (3:31:24.160)

you know, take those beatings

Lex Fridman (3:31:26.120)

and just keep showing up until you've overcome

Lex Fridman (3:31:29.240)

and can now give those beatings.

Lex Fridman (3:31:31.280)

As you know, in Japan and Russia, you get it by just like,

Travis Stevens (3:31:34.360)

when you're young, it's easier to get a black belt

Lex Fridman (3:31:36.440)

when you're like, just go through a bunch of beatings

Travis Stevens (3:31:39.520)

for like 10 years in your teenage years.

Lex Fridman (3:31:42.800)

But there's also from it springs like a camaraderie.

Travis Stevens (3:31:47.800)

Like there's a definitely a brotherhood and sisterhood

Lex Fridman (3:31:51.520)

in terms of judo to where you're connected forever

Travis Stevens (3:31:55.900)

because of that.

Lex Fridman (3:31:57.520)

For many people, it's their childhood connection.

Travis Stevens (3:31:59.380)

You sort of leave judo, you know,

Lex Fridman (3:32:01.920)

in your twenties and your thirties, but that's always there.

Lex Fridman (3:32:04.240)

And the same is true with wrestling.

Lex Fridman (3:32:05.480)

So it's interesting to see him pay respect to that,

Travis Stevens (3:32:10.640)

like by going with the Russian national judo team.

Lex Fridman (3:32:15.700)

And I think he did, obviously they have to get thrown,

Lex Fridman (3:32:18.320)

right?

Lex Fridman (3:32:19.160)

But just, you can tell,

Lex Fridman (3:32:20.800)

and you probably could tell even better,

Lex Fridman (3:32:22.320)

but you can tell when a person moves in a way

Travis Stevens (3:32:24.940)

where you're like, okay, you've had like 10 years

Lex Fridman (3:32:28.280)

of beatings and you can tell the way they pull,

Travis Stevens (3:32:31.480)

the way they move.

Lex Fridman (3:32:32.520)

But I also like, in contrast to the US national team,

Lex Fridman (3:32:36.720)

or I don't even think there's a national team for US, right?

Lex Fridman (3:32:40.880)

It's the Pedro Judo center, right?

Travis Stevens (3:32:44.720)

That there is some, it's really cool

Lex Fridman (3:32:47.520)

when there's a camaraderie like that

Travis Stevens (3:32:49.080)

amongst the highest level Olympic caliber athletes in Russia.

Lex Fridman (3:32:52.600)

I suppose Japan might have similar kind of thing.

Lex Fridman (3:32:54.840)

And then you can have the system of people together

Lex Fridman (3:33:00.640)

and then you can have a strong coaching staff,

Travis Stevens (3:33:03.000)

not just like a coach, but a coaching staff.

Lex Fridman (3:33:05.160)

And then you can have the nation backing that staff.

Travis Stevens (3:33:07.200)

I mean, and then the result is like,

Lex Fridman (3:33:09.040)

you have some incredible level of judo emerge.

Travis Stevens (3:33:14.080)

Is there something you could say,

Lex Fridman (3:33:15.360)

we didn't talk much about Jimmy.

Travis Stevens (3:33:17.560)

I mean, he was a critical part of your just,

Lex Fridman (3:33:20.500)

like of your perseverance through all the,

Travis Stevens (3:33:25.420)

all that you had to go through.

Lex Fridman (3:33:27.220)

What did you learn from Jimmy?

Lex Fridman (3:33:29.660)

What are some impacts that he had on your life,

Lex Fridman (3:33:32.660)

both on the mat and off the mat?

Travis Stevens (3:33:37.100)

If we had to like put it down to like a very simple thing,

Lex Fridman (3:33:41.860)

he taught me how to win, right?

Travis Stevens (3:33:45.180)

It wasn't necessarily like the technical side of judo.

Lex Fridman (3:33:49.340)

Like we went over gripping, we went over this,

Travis Stevens (3:33:51.820)

we adapted that.

Lex Fridman (3:33:53.700)

But the real strength to Jimmy was like,

Travis Stevens (3:33:56.420)

he knows how to win.

Lex Fridman (3:33:58.420)

And most people think,

Travis Stevens (3:34:00.700)

well, if I get really good at this technique,

Lex Fridman (3:34:03.060)

I'll be able to throw people with it, not win.

Lex Fridman (3:34:05.700)

That is not how the world of sports works, right?

Lex Fridman (3:34:09.520)

Like I remember in one of my YouTube videos,

Travis Stevens (3:34:13.300)

I was doing a breakdown of a match from the Cuba Grand Prix

Lex Fridman (3:34:17.520)

where I was fighting a Mongolian guy.

Travis Stevens (3:34:19.820)

He's kicking the shit at me, I'm not gonna lie.

Lex Fridman (3:34:22.220)

Four minutes in, like he just throwing me like left

Lex Fridman (3:34:26.900)

and right, he was so fast.

Lex Fridman (3:34:28.780)

I felt like I just couldn't get to him.

Travis Stevens (3:34:31.180)

In the last 30 seconds, he changed.

Lex Fridman (3:34:34.580)

He started protecting his lead instead of continuing

Travis Stevens (3:34:38.620)

the fight the way the entire match was going in his favor.

Lex Fridman (3:34:41.900)

He made a mental shift and when he made that mental shift,

Travis Stevens (3:34:44.500)

I beat him.

Lex Fridman (3:34:46.080)

Because he didn't know how to win the fight.

Travis Stevens (3:34:50.220)

He can win exchanges, but he can't win the fight.

Lex Fridman (3:34:54.300)

So the last thing you wanna do is have to win

Travis Stevens (3:34:57.260)

every exchange in a match.

Lex Fridman (3:34:59.940)

You wanna know how to kick it into sixth gear.

Travis Stevens (3:35:03.940)

Like when to step off the gas,

Lex Fridman (3:35:06.180)

when to focus on gripping,

Travis Stevens (3:35:08.060)

when to attack, how often to attack,

Lex Fridman (3:35:10.540)

all those things like.

Lex Fridman (3:35:12.720)

And you've had those conversations with Jimmy like,

Lex Fridman (3:35:14.900)

this is not like how to stop trying to win every exchange,

Travis Stevens (3:35:17.820)

that kind of thing.

Lex Fridman (3:35:18.660)

And instead.

Travis Stevens (3:35:19.940)

Because I was a brawler before.

Lex Fridman (3:35:21.060)

I was like, if I threw you once, I'm throwing you again.

Lex Fridman (3:35:23.940)

And sometimes you get caught.

Lex Fridman (3:35:25.700)

Why would I do that?

Travis Stevens (3:35:27.140)

I'm already winning.

Lex Fridman (3:35:28.940)

What about like the mental side of the game,

Lex Fridman (3:35:30.700)

the preparation, all those things?

Lex Fridman (3:35:32.900)

One of the biggest things Jimmy brought to the forefront

Travis Stevens (3:35:35.940)

when it came to like the mental side

Lex Fridman (3:35:37.660)

was the visualization, right?

Lex Fridman (3:35:41.160)

And when I started visualizing myself winning,

Lex Fridman (3:35:44.400)

I started seeing more success.

Lex Fridman (3:35:46.700)

But once I started seeing more success,

Lex Fridman (3:35:49.420)

with the visualization also came self doubt.

Travis Stevens (3:35:52.820)

Because as I'm starting to picture myself like,

Lex Fridman (3:35:59.200)

I would picture myself before fighting Church's village,

Travis Stevens (3:36:02.240)

I'm gonna throw him with Koshiguruma and I can see it.

Lex Fridman (3:36:05.300)

And if I stand in the shoot for too long,

Lex Fridman (3:36:08.320)

you start to like, but what if he counters?

Lex Fridman (3:36:11.640)

Then you go, well, if he counters with this,

Travis Stevens (3:36:14.640)

I'm gonna counter with that.

Lex Fridman (3:36:15.760)

But you already let that doubt in.

Lex Fridman (3:36:18.040)

And then you start playing this like five step scenario,

Lex Fridman (3:36:20.620)

but you still come out on top.

Lex Fridman (3:36:22.200)

But all that doubt has like seeped into your mind, right?

Lex Fridman (3:36:26.400)

And a lot of people don't understand

Travis Stevens (3:36:29.320)

that that's a bad thing.

Lex Fridman (3:36:31.900)

You're still winning in your mind,

Lex Fridman (3:36:33.720)

but you're also doubting yourself in your mind.

Lex Fridman (3:36:35.840)

Yeah, once you let that doubt seep in,

Travis Stevens (3:36:38.920)

it's destructive.

Lex Fridman (3:36:40.580)

Yeah, and so I remember I was at the World Championships.

Travis Stevens (3:36:44.680)

I can't remember what year it was, but I was ready.

Lex Fridman (3:36:47.520)

Like I was healthy, I was ready to go.

Lex Fridman (3:36:50.440)

And we all thought like,

Lex Fridman (3:36:52.360)

this is the year Travis wins the Worlds.

Travis Stevens (3:36:55.360)

I go out there in the first round,

Lex Fridman (3:36:57.900)

I'm in the shoot for like 45 minutes.

Travis Stevens (3:37:01.080)

Like the match went into golden score,

Lex Fridman (3:37:03.080)

then the next match went into golden score,

Travis Stevens (3:37:05.160)

then the fucking next match went into golden score.

Lex Fridman (3:37:07.440)

Then the referee came and told me,

Travis Stevens (3:37:09.140)

you can't wear your gi.

Lex Fridman (3:37:10.600)

Then Big Jim goes, why can't he wear his gi?

Travis Stevens (3:37:12.800)

Any gi that has his name on it,

Lex Fridman (3:37:14.380)

we're not gonna let him wear.

Travis Stevens (3:37:15.520)

He has to wear a different gi.

Lex Fridman (3:37:17.280)

So then I go, fuck you, I'm leaving.

Lex Fridman (3:37:18.800)

And I walked out there and I fought.

Lex Fridman (3:37:20.520)

I lost in golden score because I did a kochi

Lex Fridman (3:37:22.480)

and they called it a false attack.

Lex Fridman (3:37:23.880)

And I went, great, I'm out of the fucking Worlds.

Lex Fridman (3:37:27.360)

But when I was in the shoot,

Lex Fridman (3:37:29.240)

I struggled because I started allowing the like

Travis Stevens (3:37:33.200)

Hungarian guy that I was gonna face to do things to me

Lex Fridman (3:37:37.480)

that I would have to play defense to and then counter.

Travis Stevens (3:37:40.280)

It's like, great, but now I'm doubting my own ability.

Lex Fridman (3:37:44.380)

So I went to a sports psychologist

Lex Fridman (3:37:46.700)

and the big game changer for me was,

Lex Fridman (3:37:49.920)

I focused more on the emotional, physical response

Travis Stevens (3:37:54.320)

that happens in matches rather than the actual quote unquote

Lex Fridman (3:37:59.740)

like Instagram picture that would have happened.

Lex Fridman (3:38:02.920)

So when I was getting ready for 2016,

Lex Fridman (3:38:05.480)

you think about like,

Lex Fridman (3:38:08.360)

how do you feel like standing in the shoot?

Lex Fridman (3:38:10.440)

Like, what does your body feel like?

Lex Fridman (3:38:11.500)

Is your heart racing?

Lex Fridman (3:38:12.560)

How's your breath?

Lex Fridman (3:38:13.420)

Is your mouth dry?

Lex Fridman (3:38:15.160)

And then you think about like, okay,

Travis Stevens (3:38:16.520)

the ref just started the match.

Lex Fridman (3:38:17.680)

What happens?

Lex Fridman (3:38:18.520)

Like, how, what's the atmosphere like?

Lex Fridman (3:38:20.240)

How do you emotionally respond to these things?

Travis Stevens (3:38:23.120)

More so than me trying to beat a specific judo player,

Lex Fridman (3:38:28.060)

right?

Travis Stevens (3:38:28.900)

Like, oh, the ref just gave you a penalty at a minute 30.

Lex Fridman (3:38:31.320)

Like, how do you feel?

Lex Fridman (3:38:32.440)

And then you start thinking about the physical responses.

Lex Fridman (3:38:35.880)

And when you do that really well,

Travis Stevens (3:38:37.760)

you can actually get the pins and needles

Lex Fridman (3:38:39.600)

and your body will start to sweat

Lex Fridman (3:38:41.040)

and your heart will start to race as if you're in it.

Lex Fridman (3:38:44.760)

Cause it's not about the technique.

Travis Stevens (3:38:47.380)

It's more about the physical.

Lex Fridman (3:38:49.160)

Like, what does it feel like to have your fingers ripped

Lex Fridman (3:38:51.600)

out of a gi in the first exchange?

Lex Fridman (3:38:54.240)

Now my hands can feel that.

Travis Stevens (3:38:56.280)

That's fascinating.

Lex Fridman (3:38:57.120)

And then on a cellular level,

Travis Stevens (3:38:59.280)

like I fought the Olympic games so many times

Lex Fridman (3:39:02.240)

to the point where like, it is no longer a goal.

Travis Stevens (3:39:05.200)

It's an anticipation.

Lex Fridman (3:39:06.680)

Right.

Lex Fridman (3:39:07.520)

So down to the experience of the grip break,

Lex Fridman (3:39:09.620)

that just the sweat, the, the heart beating, the, yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:39:13.560)

What does it feel to have your head smashed into a mat

Lex Fridman (3:39:15.720)

and driven across the mat with a mat burn?

Travis Stevens (3:39:17.720)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:39:18.540)

And then getting back up.

Travis Stevens (3:39:19.380)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:39:20.220)

And getting back up.

Travis Stevens (3:39:21.220)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:39:22.060)

Like with a bit of a burn, all that kind of stuff.

Travis Stevens (3:39:24.000)

The actual sensation on the skin.

Lex Fridman (3:39:25.480)

The actual sensation of what it takes to fight a judo match.

Travis Stevens (3:39:28.880)

It's not a strategy, like,

Lex Fridman (3:39:30.240)

but the actual sensations, the full experience.

Travis Stevens (3:39:32.520)

That's fascinating.

Lex Fridman (3:39:34.320)

Cause then your body's going to fight hundreds of matches

Travis Stevens (3:39:36.560)

without the physical damage.

Lex Fridman (3:39:38.560)

And you could probably get really far with that.

Lex Fridman (3:39:41.220)

And not also in just judo, but basically anything.

Lex Fridman (3:39:45.240)

You can simulate.

Travis Stevens (3:39:46.880)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:39:47.720)

If you learn how to simulate well.

Travis Stevens (3:39:50.720)

You've lived a very, a hell of a life.

Lex Fridman (3:39:55.920)

Is there a device you can give to young people?

Travis Stevens (3:39:58.840)

Sort of a high school, college,

Lex Fridman (3:40:02.680)

thinking about their career, thinking about life,

Lex Fridman (3:40:05.280)

how to live one they're proud of?

Lex Fridman (3:40:10.760)

I think the number one thing I can tell people is,

Lex Fridman (3:40:16.000)

and how I've lived my life is,

Lex Fridman (3:40:18.560)

you've really got to like,

Travis Stevens (3:40:20.000)

forget everybody in your life right now.

Lex Fridman (3:40:21.920)

Your mother, your father, your grandparents,

Travis Stevens (3:40:24.040)

your girlfriend, your boyfriend, whoever it is,

Lex Fridman (3:40:26.520)

and really decide like, what is going to make you happy?

Travis Stevens (3:40:32.120)

At some point in my career,

Lex Fridman (3:40:34.920)

the act of pushing my body to the limit

Travis Stevens (3:40:38.280)

made me happier than winning a grand slam medal.

Lex Fridman (3:40:44.420)

Pushing my body to the limit

Travis Stevens (3:40:45.920)

didn't make me happier than winning an Olympic medal.

Lex Fridman (3:40:51.080)

There's a balance there.

Lex Fridman (3:40:52.880)

And I think a lot of people struggle with living their life

Lex Fridman (3:40:56.360)

where they're happy and they make other people happy

Travis Stevens (3:41:00.440)

or take in their feelings into the considerations

Lex Fridman (3:41:04.620)

of what they need to do in their life.

Lex Fridman (3:41:07.440)

And I think if they can cut those strings sooner,

Lex Fridman (3:41:12.000)

it'll allow you to get over it quicker

Lex Fridman (3:41:13.840)

and get to a happier place sooner.

Lex Fridman (3:41:16.160)

And then as long as you're focusing

Travis Stevens (3:41:17.640)

on what's making you happy,

Lex Fridman (3:41:20.040)

the things you do that make you happy

Travis Stevens (3:41:22.120)

will attract other people who do those things

Lex Fridman (3:41:25.040)

that will in turn build stronger, better relationships.

Lex Fridman (3:41:29.360)

And then you will also realize the best form of yourself

Lex Fridman (3:41:34.560)

and inspire many others.

Travis Stevens (3:41:36.600)

You've inspired me to, for whatever the hell I've done,

Lex Fridman (3:41:42.760)

at least to do a slightly better job

Travis Stevens (3:41:44.760)

than I otherwise would have by doing martial arts,

Lex Fridman (3:41:47.440)

by taking that journey,

Lex Fridman (3:41:49.280)

and I think becoming a better person because of it.

Lex Fridman (3:41:51.280)

So Travis, I have been, I continue to be

Travis Stevens (3:41:55.280)

one of your biggest fans.

Lex Fridman (3:41:56.840)

I love your whole career in the way you pursued happiness.

Travis Stevens (3:42:01.240)

I love what you and Jimmy have done.

Lex Fridman (3:42:03.120)

I love the sport of judo as represented by you.

Lex Fridman (3:42:06.240)

So I deeply appreciate what you've done, man.

Lex Fridman (3:42:08.920)

And I'm honored that you would spend your time with me today.

Travis Stevens (3:42:11.960)

Thanks for talking, man.

Lex Fridman (3:42:13.040)

Thank you.

Travis Stevens (3:42:15.280)

Thanks for listening to this conversation

Lex Fridman (3:42:16.960)

with Travis Stevens.

Travis Stevens (3:42:18.400)

To support this podcast,

Lex Fridman (3:42:19.720)

please check out our sponsors in the description.

Lex Fridman (3:42:22.360)

And now let me leave you with some words

Lex Fridman (3:42:24.760)

from Napoleon Bonaparte.

Travis Stevens (3:42:27.040)

Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake.

Lex Fridman (3:42:30.320)

Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

Lex Fridman (40:00.080)

And so going into like my Olympic semi,

Lex Fridman (40:02.320)

I put him into that category of like,

Travis Stevens (40:04.800)

I wanna get to this guy, cause this guy is beautiful.

Lex Fridman (40:08.800)

The trick is, how do you get there?

Lex Fridman (40:10.720)

How do you get there?

Lex Fridman (40:11.560)

And by the way, we're talking about the 2016 Olympics

Travis Stevens (40:14.520)

where you won the silver medal.

Lex Fridman (40:15.800)

You were part of three different Olympics.

Lex Fridman (40:18.480)

But the cardio aspect of it,

Lex Fridman (40:23.280)

have you faced exhaustion often in your matches

Lex Fridman (40:26.660)

where you have to go deep and go like past?

Lex Fridman (40:29.080)

Yeah, but that's not from the judo side of it.

Travis Stevens (40:32.840)

That's from like, I did a very bad job of making weight.

Lex Fridman (40:35.840)

It's always the weight cut.

Travis Stevens (40:36.960)

Yeah, it's always the weight cut.

Lex Fridman (40:39.400)

And I think people really struggle with that.

Travis Stevens (40:43.400)

They blame cardio and training and everything else.

Lex Fridman (40:46.240)

But when it really comes down to it,

Travis Stevens (40:48.480)

like we train for an hour and a half, two hours,

Lex Fridman (40:50.400)

twice a day.

Lex Fridman (40:51.880)

How are you tired after five minutes?

Lex Fridman (40:54.060)

Right.

Travis Stevens (40:54.900)

Right, it becomes into a mental struggle,

Lex Fridman (40:56.560)

your anxiety, your stress, your lack of belief in yourself.

Travis Stevens (41:01.040)

Or in my case, sometimes it's poor nutrition.

Lex Fridman (41:04.640)

Sometimes I had one too many McDonald's meals.

Travis Stevens (41:06.660)

It just, it happens.

Lex Fridman (41:08.720)

Okay, so let's talk about weight cutting real quick.

Lex Fridman (41:11.760)

So I've seen weight cutting break

Lex Fridman (41:16.700)

some of the toughest fighters, wrestlers, grapplers ever.

Travis Stevens (41:20.360)

Like burnout break,

Lex Fridman (41:22.000)

like where it makes you wanna quit the sport.

Lex Fridman (41:24.200)

So this is what people don't often talk about,

Lex Fridman (41:27.800)

but mentally it's one of the hardest things,

Travis Stevens (41:29.960)

especially when you're doing it kind of wrong.

Lex Fridman (41:32.800)

Because it becomes a mental war.

Lex Fridman (41:35.960)

So you competed, like you said,

Lex Fridman (41:37.440)

your whole career at 81 kilograms.

Lex Fridman (41:40.200)

You walked around at?

Lex Fridman (41:42.600)

88, 89.

Lex Fridman (41:44.180)

So about 15 pounds, sometimes 20 pounds over that.

Lex Fridman (41:49.880)

Give or take.

Lex Fridman (41:51.440)

And so what was your process like mentally and physically?

Lex Fridman (41:56.720)

First of all, maybe you can comment on

Travis Stevens (41:58.160)

when the weigh ins are relative to the matches.

Lex Fridman (42:00.880)

And then what was your process like leading

Travis Stevens (42:02.680)

like a week ahead, a day ahead,

Lex Fridman (42:05.560)

an hour ahead, minutes ahead of the weigh in?

Travis Stevens (42:09.560)

Man, everyone varies tremendously

Lex Fridman (42:13.500)

because we're not like most sports

Travis Stevens (42:16.240)

because you're dropped off in foreign countries

Lex Fridman (42:18.520)

with who knows what, right?

Travis Stevens (42:20.720)

Some places have saunas, some places have treadmills.

Lex Fridman (42:24.600)

I went to a place one time in China

Travis Stevens (42:27.040)

in the middle of winter where the roads were frozen with ice

Lex Fridman (42:31.220)

and we had to use our hotel rooms

Travis Stevens (42:32.960)

because you couldn't sweat outside

Lex Fridman (42:35.880)

because it was too cold.

Lex Fridman (42:38.440)

And every one of my Olympics,

Lex Fridman (42:39.920)

the weight cut was different just given my mass.

Travis Stevens (42:42.840)

When I went to 2008,

Lex Fridman (42:45.320)

I was probably like 82, 83 kilos walking around.

Lex Fridman (42:48.920)

So weight cutting wasn't a thing for me.

Lex Fridman (42:51.960)

In London, we actually weighed in the morning of.

Lex Fridman (42:56.080)

So weigh ins were at like 6 a.m.

Lex Fridman (42:59.080)

And the Olympics were always beneficial to me

Travis Stevens (43:00.920)

because they actually don't start until like 10 or 11.

Lex Fridman (43:05.180)

So you actually were able to recover.

Travis Stevens (43:07.160)

Where on the circuit you would weigh in at 6 a.m.

Lex Fridman (43:10.020)

and the competition started at 8 a.m.

Travis Stevens (43:12.440)

It's like, well, I was cutting weight at 5 a.m.

Lex Fridman (43:15.120)

And most of it for people who are not familiar,

Lex Fridman (43:17.440)

but maybe you can also correct me,

Lex Fridman (43:19.280)

most of it, you're really just getting the water

Travis Stevens (43:21.820)

out of your system.

Lex Fridman (43:22.660)

It was water cut.

Travis Stevens (43:23.480)

At that point, yeah.

Lex Fridman (43:25.160)

Like 24 hours before even, like.

Lex Fridman (43:27.640)

So are you?

Lex Fridman (43:28.480)

Like an hour before.

Lex Fridman (43:29.800)

But yeah, but like leading up to it.

Lex Fridman (43:33.100)

And have you eaten the day before?

Lex Fridman (43:36.080)

Do you try to minimize the amount of food in your system?

Lex Fridman (43:38.520)

My weight cutting process was a little bit different

Travis Stevens (43:41.240)

than most people because I like to eat.

Lex Fridman (43:47.680)

I'm not the type of person that believes

Travis Stevens (43:50.960)

your athletic career is determined by your nutrition.

Lex Fridman (43:55.360)

Right.

Travis Stevens (43:56.200)

I don't believe that.

Lex Fridman (43:57.480)

I think some sports are built that way.

Lex Fridman (43:59.840)

But when it comes to combat sports,

Lex Fridman (44:01.740)

like, you know, your ability to knock somebody out

Travis Stevens (44:06.080)

has nothing to do with whether you had a cheeseburger

Lex Fridman (44:08.440)

or a salad.

Travis Stevens (44:09.920)

My ability to throw you is not determined by that.

Lex Fridman (44:12.200)

I may be able to perform better

Travis Stevens (44:13.760)

because I've eaten a certain way,

Lex Fridman (44:16.340)

but not enough to justify an entire diet change.

Travis Stevens (44:19.980)

Your body is built and my body is built

Lex Fridman (44:22.560)

to operate with certain things

Travis Stevens (44:24.040)

that I've had in my system for years.

Lex Fridman (44:26.580)

Yeah, I think I'm with you,

Lex Fridman (44:28.720)

but I also believe that there's a mental aspect.

Lex Fridman (44:32.120)

So if you're surrounded by people

Travis Stevens (44:33.500)

that tell you diet matters,

Lex Fridman (44:35.400)

then if your diet is off,

Travis Stevens (44:37.180)

you're gonna believe you're going to be off

Lex Fridman (44:38.840)

because the people around you tell you

Travis Stevens (44:40.240)

your diet should be good.

Lex Fridman (44:41.640)

So yeah, I think it's like,

Travis Stevens (44:44.400)

it's the same, I've had an argument with Matthew Walker,

Lex Fridman (44:47.080)

who's a sleep scientist about sleep.

Lex Fridman (44:51.000)

And it's like, if you believe sleep is essential,

Lex Fridman (44:53.720)

it's essential to get eight hours of sleep

Travis Stevens (44:55.560)

every single night perfectly,

Lex Fridman (44:57.400)

then you're going to be very stressed when you don't get it.

Lex Fridman (45:00.280)

And then I think it will negatively affect,

Lex Fridman (45:02.520)

the stress will negatively affect your longevity

Lex Fridman (45:04.480)

and all kinds of aspects of your life.

Lex Fridman (45:06.480)

If you actually just learn to truly listen to your body,

Travis Stevens (45:09.360)

become a scientist of your own body with sleep and food,

Lex Fridman (45:12.100)

it might end up that it will be the eight hours a night

Travis Stevens (45:15.120)

or whatever, but it might be something else

Lex Fridman (45:17.240)

and probably diet error.

Travis Stevens (45:18.800)

I remember when I was meeting

Lex Fridman (45:19.920)

with the USOC nutritionist after London,

Travis Stevens (45:23.640)

it was probably around 2014, I think.

Lex Fridman (45:28.760)

And when we had our team meeting

Travis Stevens (45:31.160)

at the beginning of the year and I was talking to him,

Lex Fridman (45:33.640)

he was talking about the nutrition plans

Travis Stevens (45:35.760)

that he could put us on.

Lex Fridman (45:37.120)

And I was like, time out.

Travis Stevens (45:38.520)

I've done the USOC thing, like I've done the couscous,

Lex Fridman (45:41.380)

I've done the lemon in my water.

Travis Stevens (45:43.400)

I go, I'm full of shit.

Lex Fridman (45:45.480)

The couscous?

Travis Stevens (45:46.520)

The couscous? Yeah.

Lex Fridman (45:47.880)

Oh boy.

Travis Stevens (45:48.720)

Like there was just,

Lex Fridman (45:49.540)

cause there's like a cookie cutter plan, right?

Lex Fridman (45:51.560)

And I was like, look, here's what I want you to do.

Lex Fridman (45:54.240)

I go, I'll listen to you,

Lex Fridman (45:56.320)

but you're going to walk into the 711

Lex Fridman (45:57.920)

across the street from the USOC.

Lex Fridman (45:59.940)

And if you can't buy it in that 711, it's not on my plan.

Lex Fridman (46:03.580)

Right.

Travis Stevens (46:04.480)

I go, because I go to places where

Lex Fridman (46:07.080)

the only thing I can eat is Pringles and a Snickers bar.

Travis Stevens (46:10.520)

I've done that.

Lex Fridman (46:11.360)

Like I've flown to Azerbaijan,

Travis Stevens (46:13.360)

stayed in a hotel where the restaurant is closed.

Lex Fridman (46:16.320)

USA Judo hasn't paid for the meal plan.

Lex Fridman (46:18.880)

And the only thing that's available

Lex Fridman (46:20.500)

is the thing across the street.

Lex Fridman (46:22.040)

So you were eating Pringles.

Lex Fridman (46:24.440)

Before fighting a Grand Slam event,

Travis Stevens (46:25.840)

while cutting 20 pounds.

Lex Fridman (46:27.200)

And a Snickers bar.

Travis Stevens (46:28.400)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (46:29.780)

I just, the visual of that, that's some like,

Travis Stevens (46:31.840)

that's some Rocky shit.

Lex Fridman (46:33.000)

Okay.

Travis Stevens (46:33.840)

Give me a nutrition plan.

Lex Fridman (46:34.760)

Go for it.

Travis Stevens (46:35.600)

Cause I'm not paying my own way

Lex Fridman (46:37.400)

to travel with 14 days of food.

Travis Stevens (46:41.420)

Right.

Lex Fridman (46:42.320)

I mean, that's, that's one of the magic of your whole career

Lex Fridman (46:45.440)

and also Judo.

Lex Fridman (46:46.960)

I mean, I'm sorry to say, of course,

Travis Stevens (46:48.980)

you want athletes to be super rich

Lex Fridman (46:51.240)

and super well funded from an athlete perspective

Lex Fridman (46:53.840)

and the sport to be popular and managed

Lex Fridman (46:56.680)

in an ultra competent way.

Lex Fridman (46:57.800)

But as a fan.

Lex Fridman (46:58.920)

That's not reality.

Lex Fridman (46:59.880)

But as a fan, it's fun to watch somebody like you

Lex Fridman (47:02.760)

who's exceptionally driven,

Travis Stevens (47:04.020)

has to suffer in all these different interesting ways.

Lex Fridman (47:07.320)

But it's only suffering if you expect the other side.

Travis Stevens (47:12.320)

Right.

Lex Fridman (47:13.160)

I don't expect it.

Travis Stevens (47:14.320)

I accept it for what it is,

Lex Fridman (47:16.120)

which is why I write off nutrition for athletes.

Travis Stevens (47:18.680)

Right.

Lex Fridman (47:19.520)

Cause it can be done without it.

Travis Stevens (47:20.520)

As long as, you know, to what you said before,

Lex Fridman (47:22.800)

like you don't believe you need it.

Travis Stevens (47:25.600)

Some people believe they need it.

Lex Fridman (47:28.480)

The mind, getting your mind right

Travis Stevens (47:30.180)

is the most important thing.

Lex Fridman (47:31.280)

You know what I believe I need?

Lex Fridman (47:32.480)

What's that?

Lex Fridman (47:33.320)

A Snickers bar when I'm tired.

Travis Stevens (47:35.040)

I want a little bit of sugar.

Lex Fridman (47:36.080)

It makes me feel better.

Lex Fridman (47:38.740)

What do you want me to do?

Lex Fridman (47:39.580)

So you,

Lex Fridman (47:42.080)

what are you going to do?

Lex Fridman (47:43.680)

Yeah.

Travis Stevens (47:45.040)

I just love the visual of you eating a Snickers bar

Lex Fridman (47:47.720)

before a grand slam.

Lex Fridman (47:48.920)

But that became part of my nutrition plan.

Lex Fridman (47:51.260)

When the USOC guy wrote my nutrition plan,

Travis Stevens (47:54.120)

I was eating a burrito bowl with brown rice,

Lex Fridman (47:58.240)

white meat chicken, black beans, guacamole, cheese,

Travis Stevens (48:02.280)

two chocolate chip cookies and a Diet Coke.

Lex Fridman (48:05.040)

This is like Chipotle or?

Travis Stevens (48:07.320)

It was Beloco, but same concept.

Lex Fridman (48:08.960)

Same concept with two chocolate chip cookies.

Travis Stevens (48:12.140)

Cause I needed the sugar.

Lex Fridman (48:13.360)

I was,

Travis Stevens (48:15.300)

I was 88 kilos when I stepped on the scale

Lex Fridman (48:19.720)

at 6.3% body fat.

Travis Stevens (48:22.920)

Now I got to make 81.

Lex Fridman (48:25.240)

Six, what?

Lex Fridman (48:26.600)

Really?

Lex Fridman (48:27.440)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (48:28.640)

And the USOC was like,

Lex Fridman (48:30.120)

Hey, you know, you can't, you can't fight 81 anymore.

Travis Stevens (48:34.360)

You have to fight nineties.

Lex Fridman (48:35.520)

And I go, I'm already into the quad.

Travis Stevens (48:38.800)

I'm not changing.

Lex Fridman (48:39.960)

I go, build me a plan where I can do this.

Lex Fridman (48:42.920)

And now we have to have an acceptable weight cut.

Lex Fridman (48:45.480)

Like it just, what do you want me to do?

Travis Stevens (48:47.480)

I'm not the IJF.

Lex Fridman (48:48.480)

I can't just change the fact that it takes two years

Travis Stevens (48:51.000)

to qualify.

Lex Fridman (48:52.580)

I know where I'm at.

Travis Stevens (48:53.600)

I know what I have to go through

Lex Fridman (48:54.960)

and I accept the consequences.

Travis Stevens (48:57.040)

It is what it is.

Lex Fridman (48:57.860)

What do you want me to do?

Lex Fridman (48:59.180)

All right, so what was the process?

Lex Fridman (49:00.880)

I mean, can you, can you speak to,

Lex Fridman (49:02.760)

so you, you wake up early in the morning,

Lex Fridman (49:05.120)

the day of the weigh ins, a few hours before.

Travis Stevens (49:08.540)

Technically my weight cut never started

Lex Fridman (49:11.200)

until I got off a plane and to a hotel.

Lex Fridman (49:15.320)

And how many hours?

Lex Fridman (49:17.080)

Three days.

Lex Fridman (49:19.180)

So it's a three day cut.

Lex Fridman (49:20.680)

It's a three day cut.

Travis Stevens (49:21.520)

Mentally you're thinking of it that way.

Lex Fridman (49:23.120)

Yep.

Lex Fridman (49:23.960)

And then you're still eating.

Lex Fridman (49:24.980)

I eat every day.

Lex Fridman (49:26.080)

And then like, what do you load up on water?

Lex Fridman (49:28.480)

Maybe as you start and then the water stops.

Travis Stevens (49:32.320)

It is what it is.

Lex Fridman (49:35.320)

So you, I mean, it's a slow,

Travis Stevens (49:38.440)

you're not actually like sweating all three days.

Lex Fridman (49:41.600)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (49:42.960)

But then it's like torture to sleep.

Lex Fridman (49:46.560)

Part of the process.

Lex Fridman (49:49.100)

Are you able to sleep?

Lex Fridman (49:50.360)

Sometimes.

Travis Stevens (49:52.320)

It depends.

Lex Fridman (49:54.280)

So you're dehydrated, further and further dehydrated

Travis Stevens (49:57.140)

with six, 7% body fat, trying to lose 10 pounds.

Lex Fridman (50:01.040)

I even developed a way to drink water out of a bottle

Travis Stevens (50:03.920)

where I don't drink anything,

Lex Fridman (50:04.880)

but I feel like I have swishing it.

Travis Stevens (50:08.040)

What's the, no.

Lex Fridman (50:08.880)

So like, I take like a bottle of water

Lex Fridman (50:10.640)

and like, if we were to like, to draw a line on it,

Lex Fridman (50:13.520)

I would tip it and I would go like this.

Travis Stevens (50:15.120)

I would go.

Lex Fridman (50:23.440)

And you would draw that line,

Lex Fridman (50:24.480)

but like I've drank now water for 20 seconds or whatever

Lex Fridman (50:27.280)

it is.

Lex Fridman (50:29.160)

And I feel, I get the fix.

Lex Fridman (50:32.000)

Brain told me I got there.

Travis Stevens (50:34.360)

No problem.

Lex Fridman (50:35.820)

That's amazing, man.

Travis Stevens (50:36.920)

You just, your mind's a very powerful tool.

Lex Fridman (50:39.980)

And the problem a lot of people have is

Travis Stevens (50:45.960)

they don't accept the reality of the situation.

Lex Fridman (50:49.200)

They bitch about the reality of the situation.

Travis Stevens (50:51.600)

I just.

Lex Fridman (50:52.440)

First of all, you could always quit, right?

Travis Stevens (50:56.880)

Yep.

Lex Fridman (50:57.720)

So like, you're not.

Travis Stevens (50:59.000)

Never missed weight.

Lex Fridman (51:00.240)

Never.

Travis Stevens (51:01.080)

Never missed weight.

Lex Fridman (51:01.920)

You can perform poorly.

Travis Stevens (51:04.120)

You can't miss weight.

Lex Fridman (51:04.960)

Don't miss weight.

Travis Stevens (51:05.800)

Don't miss weight.

Lex Fridman (51:07.000)

Because you can always win

Travis Stevens (51:10.160)

regardless of how bad the weight cut is.

Lex Fridman (51:12.600)

You can never win if you miss weight.

Lex Fridman (51:15.800)

But your brain is also really good.

Lex Fridman (51:19.200)

Maybe not your brain,

Lex Fridman (51:20.620)

but I know my brain,

Lex Fridman (51:23.480)

I think most people's brains are good at generating,

Travis Stevens (51:26.080)

the more desperate things become,

Lex Fridman (51:27.680)

the better at generating excuses.

Lex Fridman (51:30.560)

So what were you doing with your mind

Lex Fridman (51:33.760)

that resulted in you never missing weight?

Travis Stevens (51:37.560)

The plan.

Lex Fridman (51:39.040)

So like I said, like my weight cut would never start

Travis Stevens (51:43.540)

until I got to the hotel

Lex Fridman (51:45.480)

because I didn't check my weight the morning of,

Travis Stevens (51:48.680)

I didn't check my weight when I got there.

Lex Fridman (51:50.760)

I just, while I'm traveling,

Travis Stevens (51:52.840)

I'm doing things at like a minimal level,

Lex Fridman (51:55.880)

but I'm never not giving myself something I'm craving.

Travis Stevens (52:01.880)

If I'm thirsty, I'm drinking a Diet Coke.

Lex Fridman (52:04.760)

If I'm hungry, I'm buying a Snickers bar.

Travis Stevens (52:07.760)

I'm buying a sandwich.

Lex Fridman (52:09.960)

I am.

Lex Fridman (52:11.680)

And I accept the consequences when I get there.

Lex Fridman (52:14.160)

And then when I get there,

Travis Stevens (52:16.040)

if I step on the scale and it says 88 kilos,

Lex Fridman (52:19.000)

I instantaneously know exactly

Lex Fridman (52:21.200)

what it's gonna take to be 81.

Lex Fridman (52:22.920)

And then you just follow like a robot,

Travis Stevens (52:24.800)

follow a very specific process.

Lex Fridman (52:26.360)

Yep.

Lex Fridman (52:27.960)

And then, I mean,

Lex Fridman (52:28.880)

cause there's a lot of seconds in three days,

Travis Stevens (52:31.720)

seconds and minutes and you just.

Lex Fridman (52:33.720)

I just know exactly what it takes from my body.

Travis Stevens (52:36.480)

I know exactly what a one hour gym workout

Lex Fridman (52:39.720)

wearing a sauna suit is gonna take.

Travis Stevens (52:43.040)

I know exactly what I'm gonna lose on day one.

Lex Fridman (52:45.520)

And I know exactly what I'm gonna lose on day three,

Travis Stevens (52:47.960)

because they're not the same.

Lex Fridman (52:49.480)

So I can instantly look at a hotel,

Travis Stevens (52:52.240)

decide is there a bathroom, sauna, gym,

Lex Fridman (52:55.700)

temperature of the gym, access to the gym and when it is,

Travis Stevens (52:59.840)

access to the judo mats, my training partners,

Lex Fridman (53:03.020)

the roads versus streetlights, the weather outside.

Travis Stevens (53:06.360)

I can take a look at that environment and say,

Lex Fridman (53:08.460)

this is my weight, this is weigh ins.

Lex Fridman (53:11.040)

And instantaneously in my head,

Lex Fridman (53:12.720)

there's a plan to make weight.

Lex Fridman (53:14.220)

And you have a sense of how much sweat adds up to 10 pounds.

Lex Fridman (53:18.840)

How much sweat plus time.

Travis Stevens (53:20.560)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (53:21.400)

And I make sure in my plan,

Travis Stevens (53:24.040)

all of my meals and how much water I need in between

Lex Fridman (53:27.360)

is allocated to still make weight.

Travis Stevens (53:29.160)

Cause you have to eat or drink during that time.

Lex Fridman (53:31.880)

Are you incorporating like mental exhaustion into this?

Travis Stevens (53:36.680)

That doesn't exist.

Lex Fridman (53:38.140)

So it doesn't?

Travis Stevens (53:38.980)

No, it doesn't.

Lex Fridman (53:39.800)

Do you like meditate or something?

Lex Fridman (53:41.120)

What did the thoughts come, especially three days.

Lex Fridman (53:43.560)

We're not talking about four hours of suffering.

Travis Stevens (53:45.840)

I'll tell you.

Lex Fridman (53:46.680)

This has broken some of the toughest people in the world.

Travis Stevens (53:48.960)

The hardest weight cut I ever had.

Lex Fridman (53:51.520)

Hardest one.

Travis Stevens (53:53.680)

I fought Pan Am games in 2015 in Edmonton, Canada

Lex Fridman (53:58.840)

on a Wednesday and I won.

Lex Fridman (54:03.020)

So I've made weight on Tuesday.

Lex Fridman (54:06.600)

I fought on Wednesday where I had to weigh in

Travis Stevens (54:08.700)

5% of my weight class, so 84 kilos.

Lex Fridman (54:12.000)

On Wednesday I was 84 kilos.

Travis Stevens (54:14.000)

I got on a plane on that Wednesday night

Lex Fridman (54:19.400)

and landed Friday morning in Sochi.

Travis Stevens (54:24.360)

Okay, so I've traveled now.

Lex Fridman (54:27.680)

I got on the scale, all my bags got lost, everything.

Lex Fridman (54:32.280)

So somehow I flew from there to here, no bags.

Lex Fridman (54:36.880)

And I threw all of my stuff in my bag.

Travis Stevens (54:40.640)

I wore sandals, one pair of pants and a T shirt

Lex Fridman (54:44.760)

on the plane because I was like, I'm just tired.

Travis Stevens (54:47.240)

I just fought.

Lex Fridman (54:48.080)

I don't even want to carry it.

Travis Stevens (54:49.480)

I don't care.

Lex Fridman (54:50.440)

What are the odds that I get there and my bags are gone?

Travis Stevens (54:52.880)

Yeah, very low.

Lex Fridman (54:54.360)

Very low.

Travis Stevens (54:55.920)

Sure enough, it's gone.

Lex Fridman (54:57.680)

I get all the way to Sochi.

Travis Stevens (54:58.960)

I check into the hotel.

Lex Fridman (55:00.560)

There's one sauna.

Lex Fridman (55:02.800)

Guess what?

Lex Fridman (55:03.640)

You have to reserve it and you're only allowed

Travis Stevens (55:06.480)

to reserve it for an X period of time.

Lex Fridman (55:08.520)

Guess in a small tangent, when you phoned out,

Travis Stevens (55:11.200)

your bags are gone.

Lex Fridman (55:13.040)

This is something I'll often think about.

Lex Fridman (55:15.200)

There's like people that are helping you, right?

Lex Fridman (55:17.120)

Like there's a person at the airport who goes.

Travis Stevens (55:20.320)

Yep, oops.

Lex Fridman (55:21.160)

Just like that.

Lex Fridman (55:21.980)

And then the person at the hotel who tells you

Lex Fridman (55:24.120)

that you have to reserve the sauna and looks at you like

Travis Stevens (55:27.280)

you're, they don't care that you've been suffering.

Lex Fridman (55:30.800)

They don't even understand why you need it.

Lex Fridman (55:33.720)

Yeah, like why?

Lex Fridman (55:34.840)

Oh, you know, oh, this, like this little kid reserved it

Travis Stevens (55:38.840)

for five hours or something to block it off.

Lex Fridman (55:41.520)

I'm sorry.

Lex Fridman (55:43.280)

Is there a frustration that gets in there?

Lex Fridman (55:45.080)

Are you?

Travis Stevens (55:45.920)

You just accept reality.

Lex Fridman (55:46.880)

Don't even hinder on like the things you can't change.

Travis Stevens (55:50.600)

Because the second you get frustrated,

Lex Fridman (55:52.280)

the second you think you can change it,

Travis Stevens (55:55.760)

you'll harp on it.

Lex Fridman (55:56.700)

And that breaks most men.

Travis Stevens (55:58.240)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (55:59.140)

That like little thing in the back of their mind thinking,

Lex Fridman (56:02.460)

oh, like what if?

Lex Fridman (56:03.880)

There's no what if.

Travis Stevens (56:04.700)

There's only right here right now.

Lex Fridman (56:06.800)

If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

Travis Stevens (56:07.880)

Let's just quickly come up with a solution

Lex Fridman (56:10.080)

to fix the problem.

Travis Stevens (56:11.000)

By the way, as another small tangent,

Lex Fridman (56:13.360)

all the greatest people I've interacted with

Travis Stevens (56:16.280)

at the highest level think like that.

Lex Fridman (56:19.260)

They don't linger on the, it's like the next thing.

Travis Stevens (56:22.440)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (56:23.280)

Because like, if you want to do something great,

Travis Stevens (56:25.360)

hard stuff is going to keep happening to you.

Lex Fridman (56:28.240)

And if you're going to let that affect you,

Travis Stevens (56:30.420)

you're not ever going to do the great thing.

Lex Fridman (56:32.400)

It's fascinating actually.

Travis Stevens (56:33.640)

Like that's the one skill you have to learn.

Lex Fridman (56:36.480)

Elon Musk is great at this.

Travis Stevens (56:38.000)

Constantly dealing with emergencies.

Lex Fridman (56:39.780)

Okay.

Travis Stevens (56:40.620)

Okay, this happened.

Lex Fridman (56:41.440)

What's the next step?

Travis Stevens (56:42.280)

Yep.

Lex Fridman (56:43.200)

Accept.

Travis Stevens (56:44.040)

It's not that big of a deal.

Lex Fridman (56:44.860)

Every problem has a solution.

Travis Stevens (56:46.040)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (56:47.000)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (56:47.840)

And if I can't solve it, it's not my problem.

Lex Fridman (56:50.680)

You know what I mean?

Travis Stevens (56:51.520)

Yeah, exactly.

Lex Fridman (56:52.340)

So what, so how'd you figure it out?

Lex Fridman (56:54.320)

In sandals?

Lex Fridman (56:55.160)

Get this, I get to the hotel.

Travis Stevens (56:57.320)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (56:58.160)

I check in.

Travis Stevens (56:58.980)

I don't even know about the sauna yet.

Lex Fridman (57:00.700)

I go, I need to find a clothing store.

Travis Stevens (57:03.240)

I'm in the middle of Russia.

Lex Fridman (57:05.280)

I open up Google Maps and I'm like, sports store.

Travis Stevens (57:09.120)

I find an Adidas sports store

Lex Fridman (57:11.440)

in the middle of Sochi, Russia, right?

Travis Stevens (57:14.360)

I spend like $500 on like average sweats.

Lex Fridman (57:18.180)

No plastics, no nothing, and no running shoes

Travis Stevens (57:21.960)

cause they don't have any.

Lex Fridman (57:22.880)

What's the temperature outside?

Lex Fridman (57:24.400)

Is it cold?

Lex Fridman (57:25.320)

It was kind of like springish.

Lex Fridman (57:27.000)

So it wasn't cold, but it wasn't hot.

Lex Fridman (57:29.200)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (57:30.040)

So you still need a lot of layers preferably.

Lex Fridman (57:32.640)

You would need a lot of layers just to cut

Travis Stevens (57:34.600)

the amount of weight I'm about to tell you I have to cut

Lex Fridman (57:36.760)

because after I bought that stuff that next morning,

Lex Fridman (57:40.120)

and mind you, it's a Friday, it's a Friday morning.

Lex Fridman (57:42.800)

I go to the venue where we have the mats open to train

Lex Fridman (57:47.520)

and I step on the scale.

Lex Fridman (57:49.440)

And then Sagan Batar of Mongolia goes,

Travis Stevens (57:52.480)

oh, pretty good, you're almost there.

Lex Fridman (57:54.940)

And I go, no, I'm not.

Travis Stevens (57:59.180)

I stepped on the scale at almost 94 kilos.

Lex Fridman (58:01.540)

And I looked at him and I was like, I'm 81.

Lex Fridman (58:05.740)

And he went, good luck.

Lex Fridman (58:09.540)

You're almost there.

Travis Stevens (58:11.780)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (58:13.880)

For the next weight class above.

Lex Fridman (58:16.580)

Is this on a Saturday or Sunday?

Lex Fridman (58:18.540)

Friday morning.

Travis Stevens (58:19.380)

No, no, no, sorry.

Lex Fridman (58:20.220)

Friday morning, the competition is when?

Travis Stevens (58:22.720)

Sunday.

Lex Fridman (58:23.560)

Sunday.

Travis Stevens (58:24.380)

I weigh in Sunday.

Lex Fridman (58:25.700)

Okay.

Travis Stevens (58:27.420)

I'm like, holy crap.

Lex Fridman (58:28.980)

I throw on all my layers and there's one other person

Travis Stevens (58:32.700)

with me there, Kalita, who was my girlfriend at the time,

Lex Fridman (58:35.100)

now my wife, we start doing judo.

Travis Stevens (58:38.020)

Cause I'm like, this will be the easiest way to knock off

Lex Fridman (58:40.780)

like three or four kilos.

Travis Stevens (58:42.940)

Well, it's cold.

Lex Fridman (58:44.180)

I have no gi and I'm working out with a female.

Travis Stevens (58:48.660)

I can't get overly physical to really get my muscles

Lex Fridman (58:52.760)

going to really break that sweat

Travis Stevens (58:54.260)

because she has to compete in a day or two.

Lex Fridman (58:56.660)

She's not a training partner.

Travis Stevens (58:58.180)

You can't just use this person.

Lex Fridman (59:00.900)

I stepped on the scale.

Travis Stevens (59:02.140)

I was 91 kilos.

Lex Fridman (59:04.280)

So I went, well, I was a nice den, but like,

Travis Stevens (59:06.780)

yeah, I go, that's not going to fly.

Lex Fridman (59:09.640)

So sure enough, the clothes are now ruined.

Travis Stevens (59:13.020)

They didn't help me lose any extra weight.

Lex Fridman (59:15.980)

So I go back to the hotel and I start reserving the sauna.

Lex Fridman (59:19.740)

Do you know how hard it is to lose that much weight

Lex Fridman (59:21.540)

in a sauna by yourself?

Lex Fridman (59:24.140)

So it's harder on many levels,

Lex Fridman (59:25.720)

but one of them is just mental.

Travis Stevens (59:27.260)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (59:28.340)

You're sitting in heat.

Travis Stevens (59:29.900)

Heat, and you're not doing anything.

Lex Fridman (59:32.340)

Like if there had been a bike or like the sauna

Travis Stevens (59:34.860)

was big enough to use a jump rope

Lex Fridman (59:36.560)

or you could do some sort of activity,

Lex Fridman (59:39.860)

but you just sit and you stew and you're there mentally.

Lex Fridman (59:44.340)

At one point during the weight cut,

Travis Stevens (59:46.860)

I actually had my mouth on the bottom part of the door

Lex Fridman (59:49.900)

where there was a little gap and my legs up on the benches

Lex Fridman (59:53.900)

and Kalita holding the door so that it didn't open

Lex Fridman (59:56.900)

so I couldn't open it so that I could lean against

Travis Stevens (59:59.260)

that thing and have fresh air.