Ben Askren: Wrestling and MMA
体育与武术音乐与艺术技术与编程心理与人性AI 与机器学习
📋 章节目录
暂无章节信息
🔑 关键词
donwrestlinggoinggotsaidbetterobviouslydidnjiuhardjitsudoingmatchhighdrillingjordanwrestlelegwentthought
💬 精彩语录
暂无语录
🎙️ 完整对话（3832 条）
Lex Fridman (00:00.000)
The following is a conversation with Ben Askren,
以下是与本·阿斯克伦 (Ben Askren) 的对话，
Lex Fridman (00:02.560)
wrestler, MMA fighter, and a brilliant,
摔跤手、综合格斗选手以及才华横溢的
Lex Fridman (00:06.480)
opinionated, and fun personality
固执己见、有趣的个性
Lex Fridman (00:08.800)
in the world of martial arts.
在武侠世界中。
Lex Fridman (00:10.360)
And yes, he occasionally likes to talk a little trash.
是的，他偶尔喜欢说一些垃圾话。
Ben Askren (00:14.600)
Given his wild online antics
鉴于他在网上疯狂的滑稽行为
Lex Fridman (00:16.680)
and his boxing match with Jake Paul,
以及他与杰克·保罗的拳击比赛，
Ben Askren (00:20.800)
some people may forget just how dominant he was
有些人可能忘记了他的统治力有多大
Lex Fridman (00:23.920)
in the sport of wrestling and in MMA for most of his career.
他职业生涯的大部分时间都从事摔跤运动和综合格斗运动。
Ben Askren (00:28.920)
In wrestling, he is a two time NCAA Division I
在摔跤方面，他两次入选 NCAA I 级
Lex Fridman (00:32.840)
national champion and four time finalist.
全国冠军并四次入围决赛。
Ben Askren (00:36.280)
In mixed martial arts, he went undefeated for 10 years
综合格斗10年不败
Lex Fridman (00:39.520)
with a record of 19 and 0 before losing to Jorge Masvidal
在输给豪尔赫·马斯维达尔之前，战绩为 19 和 0
Ben Askren (00:44.480)
with a flying knee that caught everyone by surprise.
飞膝让所有人都大吃一惊。
Lex Fridman (00:47.320)
He's also into cryptocurrency, disc golf,
他还热衷于加密货币、飞盘高尔夫、
Lex Fridman (00:50.400)
and is the cohost of Flow Wrestling Radio Live.
也是 Flow Wrestling Radio Live 的联合主持人。
Lex Fridman (00:54.840)
This is a Lex Friedman podcast.
这是莱克斯·弗里德曼的播客。
Ben Askren (00:57.120)
To support it, please check out our sponsors
为了支持它，请查看我们的赞助商
Lex Fridman (00:59.440)
in the description.
在描述中。
Lex Fridman (01:00.720)
And now, here's my conversation with Ben Askren.
现在，这是我与本·阿斯克伦的对话。
Lex Fridman (01:06.440)
Before we talk about your incredible wrestling career,
Ben Askren (01:10.280)
your MMA career, let me ask you, I have to ask you,
Lex Fridman (01:13.880)
what did you think about the Jake Paul
Lex Fridman (01:15.600)
versus Tyron Woodley fight?
Lex Fridman (01:19.080)
Well, I thought, I mean, I'm obviously biased.
Ben Askren (01:20.800)
I thought Tyron won.
Lex Fridman (01:22.960)
I had five rounds of three.
Lex Fridman (01:25.280)
And again, maybe this is my bias in the way I was seeing it.
Lex Fridman (01:27.940)
I thought he was more effective with the striking
Lex Fridman (01:29.800)
and he was more aggressive and Jake had more volume.
Lex Fridman (01:33.500)
But that was the only thing I would give him.
Lex Fridman (01:35.980)
And I guess a lot of people just didn't see it that way.
Lex Fridman (01:38.080)
They thought he landed more, significantly more punches.
Ben Askren (01:40.120)
I just didn't think he really did any damage.
Lex Fridman (01:42.800)
It was a split decision.
Ben Askren (01:44.400)
Split decision, yeah.
Lex Fridman (01:46.200)
Were you surprised?
Ben Askren (01:49.720)
Well, it's the thing, so the thing I said
Lex Fridman (01:51.240)
when I went in to fight him, I said, we don't really,
Ben Askren (01:53.400)
maybe he's good, maybe he's not.
Lex Fridman (01:54.840)
We really have no idea to this point, you know?
Lex Fridman (01:57.800)
And so I knew Tyron was a lot better boxing than I was.
Lex Fridman (02:02.040)
And so I thought, okay, I think it's a good likelihood
Ben Askren (02:05.360)
that Tyron beats him up, but there's a chance
Lex Fridman (02:08.800)
that Jake's kind of good at this.
Lex Fridman (02:10.480)
And I think that's kind of what played out is
Lex Fridman (02:12.800)
he's kind of good at it.
Ben Askren (02:13.640)
Even if you saw it the way I saw it,
Lex Fridman (02:15.020)
he still was impressive in his showing
Lex Fridman (02:16.960)
and he's obviously put a lot of time into it.
Lex Fridman (02:19.340)
So he's not bad, we'll say that much.
Lex Fridman (02:23.480)
But isn't it surprising to you that like
Lex Fridman (02:25.280)
an elite level athlete, combat athlete,
Ben Askren (02:30.040)
lost to somebody who just takes it really seriously
Lex Fridman (02:33.040)
but is nevertheless not elite level?
Ben Askren (02:36.760)
Hmm, but I think boxing's a really specific rule set.
Lex Fridman (02:40.380)
So I'll speak about Tyron, not myself.
Ben Askren (02:41.920)
Tyron had good striking, but obviously
Lex Fridman (02:45.000)
it was his first boxing match ever.
Lex Fridman (02:47.480)
And within mixed martial arts, you have the fear
Lex Fridman (02:50.980)
of the takedown and the fear of the kick
Lex Fridman (02:52.400)
and fear of other things to go along with the punching.
Lex Fridman (02:54.920)
And so if you look at Tyron,
Ben Askren (02:56.600)
throughout his MMA career last times,
Lex Fridman (02:58.000)
what set up his punches were like level change fakes
Ben Askren (03:02.360)
at a takedown, they dropped, boom,
Lex Fridman (03:04.040)
and then something comes over the top, right?
Lex Fridman (03:05.880)
So there's many more elements to worry about
Lex Fridman (03:07.720)
in mixed martial arts, whereas boxing, there's only one.
Ben Askren (03:10.440)
It was his first fight.
Lex Fridman (03:12.080)
Yes, I thought Tyron was gonna win.
Ben Askren (03:13.800)
I thought this was gonna happen.
Lex Fridman (03:14.680)
But like I said, I mean, it's pretty evident
Ben Askren (03:16.120)
that Jake's, he's not bad at boxing.
Lex Fridman (03:19.320)
He's pretty solid, you know?
Ben Askren (03:20.440)
He gets in there and works hard at it, I guess.
Lex Fridman (03:23.360)
Out of 10 times, how many times do you think Jake wins?
Lex Fridman (03:26.480)
Against Tyron?
Lex Fridman (03:27.440)
Against Tyron.
Ben Askren (03:29.480)
They fight again and again and again, like iteratively.
Lex Fridman (03:32.040)
Yeah, so I mean, part of the thing is,
Ben Askren (03:35.280)
okay, so Jake's corner said you need a knockout
Lex Fridman (03:37.440)
going into the eighth round, right?
Lex Fridman (03:38.600)
So I think they thought, maybe they were trying
Lex Fridman (03:41.400)
to motivate him, but I don't see it that way.
Ben Askren (03:43.080)
Because if they actually thought that he was winning,
Lex Fridman (03:45.960)
why would they encourage him to take a dumb risk
Lex Fridman (03:47.960)
when Tyron clearly has knockout power, right?
Lex Fridman (03:49.760)
It's a really stupid coaching philosophy
Ben Askren (03:51.720)
if that's what you're thinking.
Lex Fridman (03:53.040)
So you obviously are thinking,
Ben Askren (03:54.040)
hey, this is actually in the balance, it's competitive.
Lex Fridman (03:57.280)
And I feel like Tyron thought maybe he was winning
Lex Fridman (04:00.200)
and didn't have the urgency necessary.
Lex Fridman (04:02.640)
And so I think there's a chance he turns it up a lot.
Ben Askren (04:07.880)
Man, I would wanna watch him again before I,
Lex Fridman (04:10.120)
so okay, I have this problem with my personality.
Ben Askren (04:12.720)
Here's my personality, Lex.
Lex Fridman (04:14.640)
I have an issue with not being able
Ben Askren (04:16.120)
to give really exact answers.
Lex Fridman (04:17.640)
So I hate giving you an answer that like,
Ben Askren (04:20.160)
I don't feel like is 100% calculated.
Lex Fridman (04:22.360)
So I would like to see them go once more
Ben Askren (04:24.840)
because I would like to see, hey, can Tyron,
Lex Fridman (04:26.720)
because if Tyron can turn up the pace
Lex Fridman (04:27.960)
and Jake can't handle it,
Lex Fridman (04:29.320)
then I think it's an eight, one or nine, two, right?
Ben Askren (04:32.800)
If it goes the exact same way
Lex Fridman (04:34.480)
and maybe Tyron was a close split decision,
Ben Askren (04:36.120)
I'm saying, oh, it's probably gonna be close
Lex Fridman (04:37.640)
every single time.
Ben Askren (04:38.480)
We're probably gonna get a five to five type of thing.
Lex Fridman (04:41.120)
So it's like, I feel like out of one match,
Ben Askren (04:45.000)
it's not totally indicative of what the future
Lex Fridman (04:47.000)
is gonna look like.
Ben Askren (04:47.840)
I feel like Tyron would get a knockout
Lex Fridman (04:49.320)
and then you would still be in the same place,
Ben Askren (04:52.080)
like not knowing what to predict.
Lex Fridman (04:56.160)
Okay, so your fight with Jake Paul,
Ben Askren (05:00.080)
looking back, you had a little bit of time now.
Lex Fridman (05:03.480)
How would you analyze that fight?
Ben Askren (05:06.960)
Well, I mean, the fight specifically,
Lex Fridman (05:08.920)
I got cracked with an overhand right,
Lex Fridman (05:10.760)
so I mean, it kind of sucks.
Lex Fridman (05:12.640)
I would say, and this is where everyone's like,
Ben Askren (05:16.960)
I really don't care and everyone's like,
Lex Fridman (05:20.120)
why would you do that?
Ben Askren (05:20.960)
It turns your reputation.
Lex Fridman (05:21.880)
It's like, well, I wanted to do it.
Ben Askren (05:23.640)
I had an enjoyable time training and in the buildup.
Lex Fridman (05:26.360)
Obviously, I wasn't skillful enough to get the win,
Lex Fridman (05:29.720)
but even despite the fact that I know what's gonna happen,
Lex Fridman (05:33.480)
if someone asked me to do it again,
Ben Askren (05:34.640)
I probably would have done it again.
Lex Fridman (05:36.800)
And so the way I was thinking about
Ben Askren (05:38.600)
when I was deciding whether to do it or not,
Lex Fridman (05:40.880)
because I got the offer,
Ben Askren (05:42.000)
it's like, okay, is this money, it can change my life.
Lex Fridman (05:45.160)
Yeah, it could, right?
Ben Askren (05:46.000)
It's not gonna double my net worth,
Lex Fridman (05:48.280)
but it's gonna add significantly and make my life easier.
Ben Askren (05:50.880)
Number two is like, when I was in high school,
Lex Fridman (05:52.280)
we used to do boxing matches for free,
Ben Askren (05:54.120)
just because we thought it was fun.
Lex Fridman (05:55.160)
When we didn't have something going on Friday night,
Ben Askren (05:57.040)
me and my buddies would get together
Lex Fridman (05:58.440)
and we had some boxing goes on, basically,
Lex Fridman (05:59.840)
and we'd punch each other in the head.
Lex Fridman (06:01.720)
So it's like, for something I think is enjoyable,
Lex Fridman (06:03.320)
and now they're gonna pay me a whole bunch of money,
Lex Fridman (06:05.240)
yeah, sure, I'll do it.
Ben Askren (06:07.320)
Would you, do you think if you got the rematch,
Lex Fridman (06:10.480)
if you did the rematch, would you,
Lex Fridman (06:12.360)
what are the odds you win?
Lex Fridman (06:13.680)
Okay, let's see.
Ben Askren (06:14.520)
I'm probably not very good.
Lex Fridman (06:15.360)
I think he's pretty good, actually,
Lex Fridman (06:16.320)
and I'm not very good.
Lex Fridman (06:17.720)
Now it's probably at a low point for me,
Ben Askren (06:20.040)
because, so when I started training for that,
Lex Fridman (06:22.040)
I was like 215 pounds, which is the heaviest I've ever been.
Ben Askren (06:24.100)
I came off my hip surgery.
Lex Fridman (06:25.280)
I literally, when I said, yes, I'll do it,
Ben Askren (06:30.240)
I had literally started working out the week before
Lex Fridman (06:32.000)
for the first time in my, since the surgery,
Ben Askren (06:35.200)
because I wasn't able to do anything.
Lex Fridman (06:37.160)
So could I perform better?
Ben Askren (06:39.800)
Yeah, but now after watching him box Tyron,
Lex Fridman (06:41.920)
like if you ask me, Ben, can you beat Tyron?
Ben Askren (06:44.640)
Probably not, but I don't think I can beat Tyron.
Lex Fridman (06:47.960)
So.
Ben Askren (06:48.800)
In boxing.
Lex Fridman (06:49.640)
In boxing, correct, in boxing, yeah.
Lex Fridman (06:50.520)
So my chances of beating him, you know,
Lex Fridman (06:52.280)
and watching that card, it's like, damn,
Ben Askren (06:55.200)
like, it'd kind of be fun to box someone who I know sucks,
Lex Fridman (06:58.080)
who I know can beat, that's what would be fun, you know?
Ben Askren (07:00.780)
Because like, the training, the preparation was fun,
Lex Fridman (07:03.940)
but then obviously, I got my butt kicked, that sucked.
Lex Fridman (07:07.440)
You know, can I swear on this podcast?
Lex Fridman (07:08.820)
Yeah, of course.
Ben Askren (07:09.660)
Oh, I was gonna drop an F bomb, I wasn't quite sure, sorry.
Lex Fridman (07:11.760)
I think that sucked, is a swear.
Ben Askren (07:13.680)
No, no, no.
Lex Fridman (07:14.520)
You could drop all of the F bombs you want.
Ben Askren (07:16.800)
So, preparation wise, do you think you were more prepared
Lex Fridman (07:20.480)
for that fight, or the Jordan Burrows exhibition?
Lex Fridman (07:27.800)
I mean, like, how did you approach it mentally, you know?
Lex Fridman (07:31.440)
Well, the Burrows thing, I obviously, it's okay.
Lex Fridman (07:33.440)
So when I retired the first time in 2017,
Lex Fridman (07:36.280)
Burrows was the only current, like,
Ben Askren (07:39.040)
we'll say really elite level wrestler
Lex Fridman (07:40.400)
that I'd never trained with.
Ben Askren (07:42.160)
I was really good friends with in Nebraska,
Lex Fridman (07:43.960)
head of the coaching team, still am.
Lex Fridman (07:45.520)
And I said, hey, I just want, I'm gonna pay my own way.
Lex Fridman (07:47.520)
I want to come down and train with Jordan,
Ben Askren (07:48.360)
because I want to see what it feels like.
Lex Fridman (07:50.160)
You know, I want to get in there and mix it up.
Ben Askren (07:51.600)
I've mixed it up with David Taylor and Kyle Dake.
Lex Fridman (07:54.080)
I mean, there's just something about wrestling that I love.
Lex Fridman (07:57.280)
And so I flew myself down there in January of 2018,
Lex Fridman (08:00.460)
and I spent four days training with Jordan.
Ben Askren (08:02.200)
It was a really good time.
Lex Fridman (08:03.640)
It gave me some great insight into how he thinks,
Lex Fridman (08:06.440)
and you know, what a great champion he is.
Lex Fridman (08:09.120)
What was it like training with him?
Lex Fridman (08:10.360)
Like what, can you give some insights?
Lex Fridman (08:12.160)
Yeah, of course.
Lex Fridman (08:13.000)
Like what the, like how hard is the live training?
Lex Fridman (08:18.560)
Is it more drilling?
Lex Fridman (08:19.520)
Is it technical?
Lex Fridman (08:20.360)
Like how does, his, it seems like his style
Ben Askren (08:23.880)
is very different than yours.
Lex Fridman (08:25.400)
So how does that match up in the room
Ben Askren (08:27.000)
in terms of like what you learn from each other,
Lex Fridman (08:29.280)
that kind of thing?
Ben Askren (08:30.120)
We only went full live for one,
Lex Fridman (08:31.760)
I think it was like 12 or 15 minutes ago
Ben Askren (08:33.560)
where it was just go, wrestle.
Lex Fridman (08:35.520)
We did a bunch of simulated live,
Lex Fridman (08:38.720)
but obviously he had, so I was a senior in college
Lex Fridman (08:41.960)
and he was a freshman in Nebraska.
Lex Fridman (08:43.400)
And so we, our teams had dueled each other.
Lex Fridman (08:45.040)
He was obviously a lot smaller at that point in time,
Lex Fridman (08:47.440)
but he had followed my career.
Lex Fridman (08:50.120)
And so when I went in there, it was like,
Ben Askren (08:52.000)
hey, I know you're really good at this position.
Lex Fridman (08:54.360)
What about this position?
Lex Fridman (08:55.320)
What are you trying to do?
Lex Fridman (08:56.160)
How exactly does it work?
Lex Fridman (08:57.720)
And then let's wrestle there, you know?
Lex Fridman (09:00.120)
And then, hey, what about this position?
Lex Fridman (09:01.700)
And so we would spend 30 to 40 minutes
Lex Fridman (09:05.520)
talking about that position.
Lex Fridman (09:07.560)
On the ground or?
Lex Fridman (09:08.960)
It was like, one was a chest wrap,
Ben Askren (09:10.840)
one was a headlock, one was, I don't remember,
Lex Fridman (09:13.320)
it's called the, we call it the lightning dump, but it's a.
Lex Fridman (09:15.920)
The lightning dump?
Lex Fridman (09:16.960)
Yeah, my buddy's name was Lightning Luke Smith
Ben Askren (09:19.280)
in high school and he was the first person I saw do it.
Lex Fridman (09:21.300)
So usually when I see someone do something,
Ben Askren (09:23.260)
then I name that move after them.
Lex Fridman (09:24.920)
Got it.
Lex Fridman (09:26.920)
I know, right?
Lex Fridman (09:27.760)
Great name.
Ben Askren (09:28.580)
It's a good name.
Lex Fridman (09:29.420)
Yeah, but so what I said with that is like,
Ben Askren (09:32.040)
he was still trying to be the best in the world.
Lex Fridman (09:33.560)
I was just trying to go work out with Jordan Burrows
Ben Askren (09:35.080)
because I enjoy wrestling.
Lex Fridman (09:38.220)
Is like someone who at that point,
Ben Askren (09:40.240)
when he has five world titles at that,
Lex Fridman (09:42.260)
four or five at that point, a lot.
Lex Fridman (09:44.400)
And so he said, my high school kids is like,
Lex Fridman (09:45.780)
hey, this is a guy who's the best in the world,
Ben Askren (09:48.020)
who's bringing someone in and saying,
Lex Fridman (09:49.880)
well, how do I do this?
Lex Fridman (09:50.760)
How do I do that?
Lex Fridman (09:51.600)
What about this?
Lex Fridman (09:52.420)
What about that?
Lex Fridman (09:53.260)
And so the level of inquisitiveness he has
Ben Askren (09:58.260)
is really impressive.
Lex Fridman (09:59.460)
And then it's obvious why he got to the level he did
Ben Askren (10:01.660)
because he's figuring out all these little situations.
Lex Fridman (10:04.180)
And that's honestly one of the biggest things
Ben Askren (10:05.840)
I think wrestlers, a lot of wrestlers fail to do
Lex Fridman (10:08.780)
as they get older.
Ben Askren (10:09.900)
Even when they get to early college age,
Lex Fridman (10:11.720)
they say, this is my style.
Ben Askren (10:12.980)
This is what I do.
Lex Fridman (10:14.140)
I'm gonna lift and work out hard
Lex Fridman (10:16.260)
and I'm not gonna add anything to my game.
Lex Fridman (10:19.260)
Whereas you've seen many progressions
Ben Askren (10:21.580)
in Jordan Burrows game.
Lex Fridman (10:22.420)
He just made his 10th world team.
Lex Fridman (10:24.460)
And if you have a really keen eye,
Lex Fridman (10:27.540)
you've been able to watch him change.
Ben Askren (10:30.220)
I've been watching him since 2007.
Lex Fridman (10:32.260)
He's changed so much.
Lex Fridman (10:34.180)
And obviously still maintained a world class level
Lex Fridman (10:36.640)
almost the entire time.
Lex Fridman (10:38.780)
When you say change, like what changed?
Lex Fridman (10:40.900)
Because he's got that double leg.
Ben Askren (10:42.580)
Yeah, but there's no double leg anymore.
Lex Fridman (10:44.500)
What's that?
Ben Askren (10:45.340)
He like his double leg for the first time
Lex Fridman (10:46.220)
against Alex Deering, he hadn't hit it in years.
Ben Askren (10:48.780)
Yeah, so that's like when people think about Jordan Burrows,
Lex Fridman (10:51.220)
they think about the double leg
Ben Askren (10:52.260)
because in his early years,
Lex Fridman (10:54.260)
fire, he had a great double leg, right?
Lex Fridman (10:55.740)
And even so in those years, I would say
Lex Fridman (10:58.960)
the biggest thing with Jordan Burrows double leg
Ben Askren (11:01.540)
wasn't his level of explosiveness,
Lex Fridman (11:04.120)
it was his level of persistence.
Ben Askren (11:05.820)
He would shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot.
Lex Fridman (11:08.280)
And it would last time to be from fun, creative angles
Lex Fridman (11:11.020)
and on the screen, all of a sudden he's on you.
Lex Fridman (11:13.360)
And he was just super persistent with it.
Lex Fridman (11:15.500)
And I think that was probably the key.
Lex Fridman (11:17.460)
And then you saw, when he came out
Ben Askren (11:20.220)
to the won the first world championship in 2011,
Lex Fridman (11:22.060)
it was kind of that type of mentality.
Lex Fridman (11:24.140)
And then shortly after then,
Lex Fridman (11:25.360)
obviously everyone was starting to lower
Ben Askren (11:26.620)
their stance getting lower
Lex Fridman (11:27.460)
and he developed a really good like
Ben Askren (11:28.980)
Mantis go behind series
Lex Fridman (11:30.460)
where he would go one way the other way.
Ben Askren (11:32.380)
Then he started developing really good
Lex Fridman (11:33.520)
like low single ankle pick type thing, you know?
Lex Fridman (11:36.600)
And then his hand fighting got really tremendous,
Lex Fridman (11:39.740)
like 15, 16, 17, his hand fighting was really good.
Lex Fridman (11:43.180)
And now I just commented at the 21 trials,
Lex Fridman (11:45.140)
like a few of the defensive sequences he got into,
Ben Askren (11:47.820)
it was like, holy shit,
Lex Fridman (11:48.940)
like just not from an athletic standpoint,
Ben Askren (11:50.780)
from a technical standpoint,
Lex Fridman (11:51.900)
the things he were doing was just tremendous.
Lex Fridman (11:53.860)
So I've seen him as someone like
Lex Fridman (11:55.860)
who's continued to reinvent themselves
Ben Askren (11:57.980)
over the course of the last 10, 12 years.
Lex Fridman (12:00.740)
Especially as a junior and senior in college,
Ben Askren (12:04.540)
you're exceptionally dominant.
Lex Fridman (12:06.620)
If you were to face him at the peak,
Ben Askren (12:08.780)
both of your peaks of NCAA wrestling,
Lex Fridman (12:11.300)
could you beat him?
Lex Fridman (12:13.160)
And if you can beat him,
Lex Fridman (12:15.060)
well, of course you can beat him.
Lex Fridman (12:18.060)
How do you solve the Jordan Boroughs problem?
Lex Fridman (12:20.660)
Well, so from a folk style wrestling standpoint,
Ben Askren (12:23.140)
Folk style, yes.
Lex Fridman (12:23.980)
Folk style.
Ben Askren (12:24.820)
So, you know, he had some competitive matches
Lex Fridman (12:27.180)
his junior and senior year.
Ben Askren (12:28.060)
He had a two, one win over,
Lex Fridman (12:29.740)
or maybe it's three, two over Michael Chandler,
Ben Askren (12:31.500)
who was my teammate who's fighting in the UFC now.
Lex Fridman (12:33.740)
He had a two and win over Tyler Caldwell.
Lex Fridman (12:36.740)
So I think you can glean some insight into that.
Lex Fridman (12:39.420)
You know, he got ridden,
Ben Askren (12:40.800)
he got so mad about this up on a podcast.
Lex Fridman (12:42.620)
So during Corona,
Ben Askren (12:43.460)
we had to make up all kinds of bullshit to talk about.
Lex Fridman (12:45.900)
And we were doing like the last 10 years best 165s.
Lex Fridman (12:49.300)
And I said, Kyle Dake would ride him for over a minute.
Lex Fridman (12:52.020)
He got so mad he wanted to come on the podcast the next day.
Lex Fridman (12:54.100)
So hopefully he doesn't listen to this and be like,
Lex Fridman (12:55.820)
fuck you, man, you know?
Ben Askren (12:58.060)
But, you know.
Lex Fridman (12:58.900)
When was this?
Ben Askren (12:59.820)
This is during Corona.
Lex Fridman (13:00.780)
Corona, last year.
Ben Askren (13:01.940)
He got mad.
Lex Fridman (13:02.780)
We were talking about, we were.
Ben Askren (13:03.600)
Before the trials.
Lex Fridman (13:04.440)
Yeah, correct, yeah.
Ben Askren (13:05.280)
So, you know, Michael Chandler rode him for two minutes plus
Lex Fridman (13:09.220)
and that was his junior year, not his senior year.
Lex Fridman (13:11.020)
Sure, right?
Lex Fridman (13:11.860)
But it's close.
Lex Fridman (13:14.060)
So I think there's some things there.
Lex Fridman (13:15.660)
I think the interesting thing would be
Lex Fridman (13:16.980)
if I would have stuck around, right?
Lex Fridman (13:19.220)
So I chose to go into mixed martial arts
Ben Askren (13:20.700)
after 2008, I would have been 74
Lex Fridman (13:23.020)
and he would have been 74.
Lex Fridman (13:23.860)
So we would have had to wrestle.
Lex Fridman (13:24.740)
And then I think that the freestyle Jordan Burroughs puzzle
Ben Askren (13:27.260)
is a lot more difficult to solve
Lex Fridman (13:29.180)
than the folk style Jordan Burroughs puzzle.
Lex Fridman (13:31.020)
And I think, I don't think he would,
Lex Fridman (13:32.660)
I think he would acknowledge that he's much better
Ben Askren (13:35.100)
at freestyle than he was at folk style.
Lex Fridman (13:37.060)
You know, although he was very good, he's better.
Ben Askren (13:39.140)
This is like raw speed explosiveness.
Lex Fridman (13:42.940)
Present a problem to you.
Ben Askren (13:44.300)
Well, so he was never, I mean, he didn't really excel
Lex Fridman (13:47.840)
on the mat in kind of either style.
Ben Askren (13:49.740)
In freestyle, he has got some good lace transitions,
Lex Fridman (13:53.100)
but in folk style, like his whole,
Ben Askren (13:54.340)
like in his entire college career,
Lex Fridman (13:55.740)
I think he has like 10 pins, which is almost nothing,
Ben Askren (13:59.020)
you know, so he was gaining no value off the top position.
Lex Fridman (14:03.220)
He was good enough on most people to get off bottom
Ben Askren (14:05.460)
without it being an issue, but it wasn't like,
Lex Fridman (14:07.700)
oh my gosh, this is an area where we really have
Ben Askren (14:09.460)
to be careful, there's a lot of things here.
Lex Fridman (14:11.740)
You know, it's just, he wasn't gaining value there.
Ben Askren (14:13.880)
Whereas in freestyle, he, I don't wanna say never,
Lex Fridman (14:17.360)
but the amount of times he gets turned is incredibly rare,
Ben Askren (14:19.900)
very, very rare, and he does have like lace transitions,
Lex Fridman (14:22.980)
so he gets a lot of points there.
Ben Askren (14:24.060)
So, and obviously freestyle is,
Lex Fridman (14:27.620)
it can be geared way more in the neutral position, right?
Ben Askren (14:30.200)
Where we're only doing takedowns, so yeah.
Lex Fridman (14:32.740)
Were you surprised that he lost to Dake in the trials,
Lex Fridman (14:37.180)
to Kyle Dake?
Lex Fridman (14:38.860)
Oh, Kyle's so, so, he's so good, right?
Ben Askren (14:41.140)
I mean, I think, I think his performance at the Olympics
Lex Fridman (14:43.860)
was, his loss then was shocking to,
Lex Fridman (14:47.660)
I mean, we understand it happened to Kyle Dake, you know?
Lex Fridman (14:50.100)
He's been a guy who's competed with Jordan Burrows forever,
Lex Fridman (14:53.580)
and obviously he was on the losing side for a while,
Lex Fridman (14:55.300)
and now he's on the winning side.
Lex Fridman (14:58.020)
But I think a lot of people thought it was a coin flip,
Lex Fridman (15:00.740)
and I think actually Kyle Dake made it feel like
Ben Askren (15:03.740)
it's not a coin flip.
Lex Fridman (15:05.100)
Now, to me, it feels like Kyle Dake isn't gonna win
Ben Askren (15:07.740)
that match significantly more times than he isn't,
Lex Fridman (15:10.260)
is what it feels like.
Ben Askren (15:11.460)
Yeah, I forgot which trials it was.
Lex Fridman (15:14.300)
Was it four years ago, where Kyle Dake threw him?
Ben Askren (15:19.420)
Like he, he, you saw inklings of like,
Lex Fridman (15:23.580)
oh wow, there might be eventually a changing of the guard.
Ben Askren (15:27.020)
Yeah, so at 13, Kyle came out and he had the one throw,
Lex Fridman (15:31.860)
but then he lost one of the matches decisively,
Lex Fridman (15:35.080)
and then he was hurt in 14, and in 16,
Lex Fridman (15:39.180)
Kyle Dake actually went up to 86 kilograms,
Lex Fridman (15:41.220)
so actually in 16, at the trials we had,
Lex Fridman (15:45.100)
so Jake Herbert was number one seed,
Ben Askren (15:46.460)
he was a former, as Guy Russell,
Lex Fridman (15:47.980)
I was a former world silver medalist.
Lex Fridman (15:50.180)
So you had David Taylor, who had not made a team yet,
Lex Fridman (15:52.640)
who is now a world champion, Olympic champion.
Ben Askren (15:54.740)
You had Kyle Dake in the bracket,
Lex Fridman (15:56.380)
who was a two time world champion now,
Lex Fridman (15:58.980)
and you had Jaden Cox in the bracket,
Lex Fridman (16:00.440)
who had not made any teams yet,
Lex Fridman (16:01.700)
but is now, what, a four time world medalist,
Lex Fridman (16:03.860)
two time world champion.
Ben Askren (16:04.980)
So, and then obviously Jaden came out on top of that,
Lex Fridman (16:07.440)
won his first Olympic medal, Olympic bronze medal.
Lex Fridman (16:10.620)
So Kyle didn't wrestle Jordan in 16,
Lex Fridman (16:13.980)
and Kyle's contention the whole time,
Lex Fridman (16:18.340)
and they argued about this,
Lex Fridman (16:19.340)
so I actually did a little bit of backstabbing.
Ben Askren (16:21.260)
Well, it's not backstabbing.
Lex Fridman (16:22.460)
And both of them, or just one of them?
Ben Askren (16:23.500)
I didn't tell any of them.
Lex Fridman (16:24.500)
Okay, so Jordan got mad.
Lex Fridman (16:26.620)
We talked about this fake match during Corona, right?
Lex Fridman (16:28.900)
We had to make up something to talk about.
Ben Askren (16:30.460)
Yeah, of course.
Lex Fridman (16:31.300)
There's obviously no matches.
Lex Fridman (16:32.440)
So we talked about this fake match, and.
Lex Fridman (16:34.420)
Do you stand behind that statement, by the way?
Ben Askren (16:36.140)
Listen, here's what I said.
Lex Fridman (16:37.620)
Kyle Dake's a four time NCAA champion.
Ben Askren (16:39.680)
Yes, I said, you gotta pick a winner.
Lex Fridman (16:42.300)
I said, Kyle Dake wins two, one
Ben Askren (16:44.020)
on a minute and six ride time,
Lex Fridman (16:45.580)
which I mean, we're talking as close as it gets,
Ben Askren (16:49.260)
as close as it gets for Kyle Dake,
Lex Fridman (16:50.820)
who's a four time NCAA champion.
Ben Askren (16:52.560)
I'm sorry, we're talking.
Lex Fridman (16:54.340)
Over Jordan Burrows.
Ben Askren (16:55.340)
Over Jordan Burrows.
Lex Fridman (16:56.420)
In a Folkestown match.
Ben Askren (16:57.260)
In a Folkestown match.
Lex Fridman (16:58.300)
The hypothetical.
Lex Fridman (16:59.140)
Back in college or now?
Lex Fridman (16:59.960)
Completely hypothetical.
Lex Fridman (17:00.800)
Now or in college?
Lex Fridman (17:01.640)
In college.
Ben Askren (17:02.460)
Both of them at their peaks at 165 pounds.
Lex Fridman (17:04.700)
So completely hypothetical.
Lex Fridman (17:06.940)
And so Jordan called in, he was all pissed at me
Lex Fridman (17:10.540)
for picking Kyle Dake.
Ben Askren (17:11.780)
He wants to come on the next day and argue his point.
Lex Fridman (17:14.700)
So I said, F that, that's dumb.
Ben Askren (17:16.940)
Oh, we had to pick a winner.
Lex Fridman (17:17.860)
We had to do something hypothetical.
Lex Fridman (17:19.100)
So then I called Kyle Dake, and I said,
Lex Fridman (17:20.540)
Kyle, Jordan's gonna come on and argue his case
Ben Askren (17:22.260)
in the morning.
Lex Fridman (17:23.200)
If he's gonna do that, why don't you come in
Lex Fridman (17:24.940)
and argue your case?
Lex Fridman (17:26.340)
So no one else knew Kyle was coming on the podcast.
Lex Fridman (17:29.700)
So they both show up, and they went at it.
Lex Fridman (17:32.480)
But one of the contentions Kyle had for years,
Lex Fridman (17:34.900)
and there's still this rule,
Lex Fridman (17:36.300)
if you win a world level medal, the following year,
Ben Askren (17:40.900)
you sit out until the very end of the American trials.
Lex Fridman (17:44.700)
And they do a best two or three.
Lex Fridman (17:46.660)
So every time previously that Kyle had wrestled Jordan,
Lex Fridman (17:49.860)
he had to come through a tournament on Saturday.
Ben Askren (17:52.820)
Okay, probably three matches.
Lex Fridman (17:54.580)
And then on Sunday, he would wrestle Jordan
Lex Fridman (17:56.820)
in the best two out of three, right?
Lex Fridman (17:58.180)
So his contention was, I'm only wrestling Jordan
Ben Askren (18:00.500)
at a disadvantage because I have to compete on Saturday
Lex Fridman (18:02.740)
and then competing on, which it's a fair argument.
Ben Askren (18:04.860)
It really is.
Lex Fridman (18:05.700)
But I also see USA Wrestling's point.
Ben Askren (18:08.140)
It's like, if someone wins a world medal,
Lex Fridman (18:10.060)
we are gonna reward them
Ben Askren (18:11.020)
because we want that person on the team again.
Lex Fridman (18:13.500)
It's crazy though that Kyle Dake had to wrestle,
Ben Askren (18:16.900)
because he's not wrestling bums in that division.
Lex Fridman (18:19.260)
Not bums, yeah.
Lex Fridman (18:20.460)
And yeah, I don't know.
Lex Fridman (18:22.260)
I don't know how wrestlers do it.
Ben Askren (18:23.620)
Because you have to go to war like three matches
Lex Fridman (18:28.340)
and then face Jordan Burrows.
Ben Askren (18:30.060)
Yeah, especially a few of those years with Dakehead,
Lex Fridman (18:33.660)
the name Andrew Howe.
Lex Fridman (18:34.660)
But it was a really competitive matches.
Lex Fridman (18:36.740)
David Taylor had really competitive matches with him.
Ben Askren (18:38.620)
Isaiah Martinez even got in there, Deeringer.
Lex Fridman (18:40.340)
So he had some really competitive matches
Ben Askren (18:42.140)
before he ever got to Jordan Burrows.
Lex Fridman (18:44.700)
So I never answered your initial question was,
Lex Fridman (18:47.220)
how did I feel?
Lex Fridman (18:48.060)
So the Jordan Burrows match,
Ben Askren (18:50.020)
I was not in wrestling shape at all,
Lex Fridman (18:52.380)
meaning wrestling's heavily dependent,
Ben Askren (18:53.660)
especially in neutral positions,
Lex Fridman (18:54.580)
heavily dependent on timing and other things.
Ben Askren (18:56.540)
I was wrestling very, very minimally
Lex Fridman (18:58.500)
because I started fighting again.
Lex Fridman (19:00.700)
So like my athletic shape was great,
Lex Fridman (19:03.820)
but it was mainly for fighting, I wasn't wrestling.
Lex Fridman (19:06.140)
So I think they were actually trying to do Burrows,
Lex Fridman (19:10.380)
Dake at the Beat the Streets.
Ben Askren (19:12.140)
It's the biggest fundraiser in wrestling
Lex Fridman (19:14.060)
every single year.
Lex Fridman (19:14.900)
In New York?
Lex Fridman (19:15.740)
In New York City.
Ben Askren (19:16.740)
They usually raise like a million dollars.
Lex Fridman (19:18.140)
They started all these programs in New York City to get,
Ben Askren (19:20.660)
which I really wonder what they're doing with the money now
Lex Fridman (19:22.620)
because they probably can't have the kids wrestling
Ben Askren (19:24.060)
because New York's crazy.
Lex Fridman (19:25.820)
Anyways.
Ben Askren (19:26.660)
I think New York figures out a way
Lex Fridman (19:27.660)
what to do with the money.
Ben Askren (19:28.740)
Hence Michael Malice complaining that they're corrupt
Lex Fridman (19:31.460)
and all that.
Lex Fridman (19:32.300)
But it goes to the Beat the Streets organization
Lex Fridman (19:34.180)
who then starts the clubs in New York.
Lex Fridman (19:35.580)
So I don't know what to do with the money.
Lex Fridman (19:36.660)
Anyway, so I was called like, I don't know,
Ben Askren (19:39.580)
two weeks before the event and said,
Lex Fridman (19:41.780)
hey, someone was supposed to wrestle Jordan Burrows.
Ben Askren (19:44.820)
It fell out.
Lex Fridman (19:46.700)
Would you wrestle him?
Ben Askren (19:48.300)
I said, yeah, sure.
Lex Fridman (19:49.140)
Why not?
Lex Fridman (19:49.980)
And it's like, well, they said,
Lex Fridman (19:51.620)
I trained with them for four days the year before.
Ben Askren (19:55.500)
I had a pretty good idea how the match was going to go.
Lex Fridman (19:57.460)
It wasn't going to go so well for me,
Lex Fridman (19:59.220)
but it's like, okay, you're missing a main event.
Lex Fridman (1:00:00.120)
are calculating those things subconsciously.
Ben Askren (1:00:01.880)
They're obviously not consciously calculating in their head,
Lex Fridman (1:00:04.700)
oh, the force is coming at me at this,
Lex Fridman (1:00:06.600)
so I need to do that, right?
Lex Fridman (1:00:07.640)
They're just doing it because.
Lex Fridman (1:00:09.360)
But see, the thing is, so you would absolutely,
Lex Fridman (1:00:12.160)
if you're doing a robot that you're wrestling,
Ben Askren (1:00:14.120)
you're going to have to constrain the speed at which it moves
Lex Fridman (1:00:16.680)
and the power that it's able to deliver.
Lex Fridman (1:00:19.160)
So that presumably, that'll be the limitation.
Lex Fridman (1:00:22.400)
So then it'll be just the same exactly as a human.
Lex Fridman (1:00:24.920)
But then, so if we go human, max force,
Lex Fridman (1:00:28.440)
we're Jordan Burrows double, max force, right?
Ben Askren (1:00:30.480)
That's the highest, that's the highest we get
Lex Fridman (1:00:31.840)
and then we go down from there.
Ben Askren (1:00:34.640)
Even within that, it's like sometimes,
Lex Fridman (1:00:38.120)
I can shoot a single leg with a maximum force of,
Lex Fridman (1:00:40.200)
I don't know, we'll just say 20 is the number, right?
Lex Fridman (1:00:43.240)
I don't know, I'll shoot it at 20
Ben Askren (1:00:44.800)
because I feel sometimes I shoot it at 15,
Lex Fridman (1:00:46.640)
sometimes I shoot it at 12, right?
Ben Askren (1:00:48.600)
Because you feel something in your opponent
Lex Fridman (1:00:50.880)
that makes you do it differently.
Lex Fridman (1:00:52.320)
So they would have to learn how,
Lex Fridman (1:00:53.800)
and then all of these different things
Lex Fridman (1:00:55.640)
and sometimes maybe I clamp a little harder.
Lex Fridman (1:00:57.920)
So the robot would have to learn
Ben Askren (1:01:00.520)
all of these different incoming inputs to the system
Lex Fridman (1:01:03.400)
and then create this reaction.
Ben Askren (1:01:04.880)
Oh no, no, no, 100%.
Lex Fridman (1:01:06.160)
So this would be all continuous.
Lex Fridman (1:01:08.360)
So unlike chess, it would not be,
Lex Fridman (1:01:09.600)
it's just chess is discrete, there's, it's.
Ben Askren (1:01:11.800)
One and then.
Lex Fridman (1:01:12.760)
You move, it's a very specific set of moves.
Ben Askren (1:01:16.340)
Now here you would, those are all variables you control
Lex Fridman (1:01:19.160)
and they're continuous variables.
Lex Fridman (1:01:20.440)
So the speed, the force, there's actuators,
Lex Fridman (1:01:23.480)
so there's all these joints, right?
Ben Askren (1:01:24.960)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:01:25.800)
But you can move.
Ben Askren (1:01:26.640)
I mean, it's just an optimization problem.
Lex Fridman (1:01:28.600)
It's kind of, and it's fascinating.
Lex Fridman (1:01:30.240)
So I've been fascinated thinking about it
Lex Fridman (1:01:31.600)
since you guys talked about it.
Ben Askren (1:01:33.440)
It was a long time ago,
Lex Fridman (1:01:34.280)
I listened to it probably three to four weeks ago
Lex Fridman (1:01:36.160)
and I've kind of been like obsessing about it ever since.
Lex Fridman (1:01:39.560)
Yeah, it just changes when,
Lex Fridman (1:01:43.160)
so unlike boxing, for example, or striking,
Lex Fridman (1:01:47.000)
once you grab a hold of somebody,
Lex Fridman (1:01:49.480)
it changes, you're now one body, right?
Lex Fridman (1:01:52.320)
So it's very complicated.
Ben Askren (1:01:53.720)
It's not just shooting a double leg without,
Lex Fridman (1:01:56.600)
like maybe doing like faking a double leg
Lex Fridman (1:02:00.140)
and then shooting the double leg,
Lex Fridman (1:02:01.760)
that's very doable with robotics,
Lex Fridman (1:02:03.640)
but then like doing a clinch and from there,
Lex Fridman (1:02:07.600)
doing like a Russian tie, like that,
Ben Askren (1:02:11.320)
that's, I think that's way harder than people realize
Lex Fridman (1:02:14.400)
in terms of how many things are involved,
Ben Askren (1:02:17.240)
like the force of the grip, the leverage you're providing
Lex Fridman (1:02:20.440)
with all the different parts of the shoulder
Lex Fridman (1:02:22.120)
and the arm and the torso, the twist,
Lex Fridman (1:02:24.760)
how much of your weight are you allocating,
Ben Askren (1:02:26.760)
like leaning on the other person,
Lex Fridman (1:02:28.800)
like taking weight off of one of your legs
Lex Fridman (1:02:30.520)
and the other leg, all of that.
Lex Fridman (1:02:32.400)
I think that's the really interesting thing about humans
Ben Askren (1:02:35.400)
is we're able to do all of this calculation.
Lex Fridman (1:02:38.120)
Subconsciously. Yeah, subconsciously.
Ben Askren (1:02:40.400)
Yeah, and that's what I've been thinking about since we,
Lex Fridman (1:02:41.960)
it's like how many things even these high school athletes
Ben Askren (1:02:45.680)
who are like getting medium good
Lex Fridman (1:02:47.960)
are subconsciously thinking about all the time
Ben Askren (1:02:50.520)
or not even thinking about, sorry, reacting to,
Lex Fridman (1:02:54.000)
but then even like for me, I'm a few orders of magnitude
Ben Askren (1:02:57.320)
better than some of these kids that play,
Lex Fridman (1:02:58.520)
and so when I go like super hard,
Ben Askren (1:03:00.320)
it's like I can feel their weight
Lex Fridman (1:03:02.480)
moving the wrong direction,
Lex Fridman (1:03:03.640)
and so for me to off balance them or trip them or whatever
Lex Fridman (1:03:05.920)
is kind of easy sometimes, you know,
Ben Askren (1:03:07.680)
because they're not feeling it the right way, right,
Lex Fridman (1:03:11.520)
or their timing's just a little bit off
Ben Askren (1:03:13.600)
or the way they're grabbing the hip,
Lex Fridman (1:03:15.160)
maybe they should be up a little higher, right,
Ben Askren (1:03:16.720)
these really small things.
Lex Fridman (1:03:18.560)
Yeah, I think that's all easy to take advantage of
Ben Askren (1:03:22.080)
for a robot, it's just there's so many things.
Lex Fridman (1:03:24.720)
The big problem is ethically,
Ben Askren (1:03:28.880)
I don't know how many people are willing to train
Lex Fridman (1:03:30.640)
with a robot because you're gonna get hurt.
Lex Fridman (1:03:33.800)
Well, couldn't you make a robot train as a robot or no?
Lex Fridman (1:03:36.080)
Yes, but then it's expensive.
Ben Askren (1:03:38.840)
So, because they're gonna get.
Lex Fridman (1:03:40.520)
Put the padding on that thing.
Ben Askren (1:03:42.040)
I know, but then it's not, you know,
Lex Fridman (1:03:45.680)
it's, then you're not capturing the full.
Lex Fridman (1:03:51.200)
Why can't you put like some rubber coating on them,
Lex Fridman (1:03:53.160)
you know, something for that effect?
Ben Askren (1:03:54.880)
You could, I mean, you could, you could.
Lex Fridman (1:03:58.320)
I mean, you're talking about robots that are,
Ben Askren (1:04:01.200)
these are humanoid robots,
Lex Fridman (1:04:02.680)
so we're talking about $500,000 million robots.
Ben Askren (1:04:07.320)
So, you would have to be motivated to spend a lot of money
Lex Fridman (1:04:12.320)
because you have to have them wrestle for like a lot.
Ben Askren (1:04:19.360)
To get better.
Lex Fridman (1:04:20.200)
Yeah, to get better.
Lex Fridman (1:04:21.200)
And then, the open question is how long does it take
Lex Fridman (1:04:27.120)
to get good enough to be a human?
Ben Askren (1:04:32.160)
I don't think we understand, I don't know,
Lex Fridman (1:04:34.520)
I don't think you understand how hard wrestling is.
Ben Askren (1:04:37.680)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:04:38.520)
Like, is it a really hard problem?
Lex Fridman (1:04:39.840)
Like, what's harder, chess or wrestling?
Lex Fridman (1:04:41.440)
Wrestling, by far.
Ben Askren (1:04:42.640)
Not even close.
Lex Fridman (1:04:43.480)
That's, yeah, that's the sense I have.
Lex Fridman (1:04:45.600)
So, because there's an infinite amount of moves, right?
Lex Fridman (1:04:48.560)
And possibilities, so once I shoot the same leg,
Ben Askren (1:04:50.720)
now you have X amount of choices.
Lex Fridman (1:04:52.960)
Once you make your choice, now I have a choice,
Ben Askren (1:04:54.840)
X amount of choices.
Lex Fridman (1:04:56.040)
Now you have X amount of choices on the defense,
Lex Fridman (1:04:58.180)
and we can just keep going back and forth, right?
Lex Fridman (1:04:59.760)
And this number becomes.
Ben Askren (1:05:01.300)
Yeah, but the same happens with chess.
Lex Fridman (1:05:02.760)
Correct, but then in wrestling,
Ben Askren (1:05:04.160)
you have to make these movements very instantaneously,
Lex Fridman (1:05:08.100)
right, because if I shoot a single leg,
Lex Fridman (1:05:09.040)
I'm not gonna wait and say, what's your defense?
Lex Fridman (1:05:11.000)
Yeah.
Ben Askren (1:05:11.840)
Right, you have to be instantaneously.
Lex Fridman (1:05:12.660)
And then, also, again, based on the force and the vectors
Lex Fridman (1:05:15.320)
and the angles, you have to calculate that and adjust.
Lex Fridman (1:05:19.160)
So really, you know, if you're saying,
Ben Askren (1:05:20.880)
well, I can shoot a single leg,
Lex Fridman (1:05:21.900)
it's not like moving the chess, it's not one move, right?
Ben Askren (1:05:24.800)
If you want to talk about different forces and stuff,
Lex Fridman (1:05:27.120)
it could be hundreds or thousands of different moves
Ben Askren (1:05:29.140)
based on how hard I shoot it,
Lex Fridman (1:05:30.600)
the angle, the direction, all of those things.
Ben Askren (1:05:32.440)
Yeah, but wait a minute.
Lex Fridman (1:05:33.360)
So, robots can do this kind of stuff really fast.
Ben Askren (1:05:37.040)
People probably know the physiology of this,
Lex Fridman (1:05:38.880)
but the reaction speed for a human
Ben Askren (1:05:41.720)
is maybe 100 milliseconds, something like that, I don't know,
Lex Fridman (1:05:44.160)
from sensation to, like, from the signal traveling
Ben Askren (1:05:49.340)
up to your brain and down, I don't know what that number is,
Lex Fridman (1:05:52.160)
but robots certainly could do it way faster.
Ben Askren (1:05:56.340)
You would actually have to, like, constrain the speed.
Lex Fridman (1:06:00.000)
Well, so the robots are already killing the chess people,
Ben Askren (1:06:02.720)
right, so, yeah, theoretically,
Lex Fridman (1:06:04.840)
they could eventually beat wrestlers,
Lex Fridman (1:06:06.280)
but you asked what was harder, wrestling or chess.
Lex Fridman (1:06:08.680)
Yeah, and I think wrestling is,
Ben Askren (1:06:10.200)
because of the time component in it
Lex Fridman (1:06:12.240)
and the physicality of, you know,
Lex Fridman (1:06:15.880)
is it this force or that force, you know?
Lex Fridman (1:06:18.120)
Because if I'm gonna say we're in a seatbelt side by side,
Ben Askren (1:06:20.800)
right, a wrestling seatbelt, not in Jiu Jitsu,
Lex Fridman (1:06:24.280)
based on the pressure you're giving me,
Lex Fridman (1:06:25.960)
I might do a bunch of different things, right?
Lex Fridman (1:06:27.520)
And so, like, to an untrained eye,
Ben Askren (1:06:30.440)
they might both look like the same thing from you.
Lex Fridman (1:06:32.980)
To a trained feel, it's like, well, in one case,
Ben Askren (1:06:35.720)
it's really evident I should go this way,
Lex Fridman (1:06:37.080)
in another case, it's really evident I should go that way.
Lex Fridman (1:06:39.240)
So the other thing to consider, just like with chess,
Lex Fridman (1:06:43.080)
the AI systems, so human versus human
Ben Askren (1:06:47.360)
play a certain way together.
Lex Fridman (1:06:49.000)
They actually haven't considered
Ben Askren (1:06:50.240)
a really large number of strategies
Lex Fridman (1:06:52.940)
that AI systems discover.
Lex Fridman (1:06:54.400)
So one possibility with a robot,
Lex Fridman (1:06:55.960)
they'll discover certain ties and certain takedowns.
Ben Askren (1:06:58.680)
That's what I'm saying.
Lex Fridman (1:07:00.000)
That, like, will dominate no matter what the human does.
Ben Askren (1:07:03.120)
You think that, so you think there's that,
Lex Fridman (1:07:04.580)
so this, I mean, this is what I'm talking about
Ben Askren (1:07:06.280)
with the wrestling, so fun is there's,
Lex Fridman (1:07:07.920)
even after 80, 90 years, there's this continuous evolution.
Lex Fridman (1:07:11.720)
So you think.
Lex Fridman (1:07:12.560)
There'll be some, like, low single type thing,
Ben Askren (1:07:13.800)
like John Smith type of situation.
Lex Fridman (1:07:15.840)
Well, like a down block go behind is something
Ben Askren (1:07:17.520)
that has really, I would say really in the last fiveish years
Lex Fridman (1:07:20.560)
has really been evolved.
Lex Fridman (1:07:21.720)
What's a go behind?
Lex Fridman (1:07:22.620)
Down block go behind, so when you shoot,
Ben Askren (1:07:24.600)
well, they just, head inside or head outside matters,
Lex Fridman (1:07:27.040)
but there's one for both.
Ben Askren (1:07:28.400)
You shoot at me, essentially, I take my leg, boom.
Lex Fridman (1:07:31.160)
And then, so that was kind of in existence
Lex Fridman (1:07:33.320)
when I was in college, right?
Lex Fridman (1:07:34.320)
You down block them and you stop,
Lex Fridman (1:07:35.600)
but usually you hit on this side of their head, right?
Lex Fridman (1:07:38.120)
And now, immediately, you shoot and I attack that shoulder
Lex Fridman (1:07:40.480)
and then I start hitting a go behind on you, right?
Lex Fridman (1:07:43.160)
And so, like, that in its current incarnation,
Ben Askren (1:07:47.080)
it absolutely wasn't around when I was in college.
Lex Fridman (1:07:49.080)
I would say it probably became popular
Ben Askren (1:07:51.840)
five to seven years ago.
Lex Fridman (1:07:53.060)
So yeah, there's these big things that are happening.
Ben Askren (1:07:56.320)
Now I really wanna roll back
Lex Fridman (1:07:57.400)
because I wanna be ahead of the game.
Ben Askren (1:07:58.560)
I wanna know what I'm missing.
Lex Fridman (1:08:00.360)
I mean, one interesting thing you have with Alpha Zero
Ben Askren (1:08:02.760)
that plays chess is it sacrifices pieces
Lex Fridman (1:08:07.920)
much more than humans do.
Lex Fridman (1:08:09.480)
So it'll give you a piece.
Lex Fridman (1:08:11.080)
And not only does it give you a piece,
Ben Askren (1:08:12.800)
it will wait a bunch of moves before it makes you pay.
Lex Fridman (1:08:18.320)
So.
Ben Askren (1:08:19.160)
Because it knows that that's better for the long term.
Lex Fridman (1:08:21.120)
Long term.
Lex Fridman (1:08:21.960)
So like humans rarely sacrifice
Lex Fridman (1:08:23.680)
without getting the piece back,
Ben Askren (1:08:25.880)
like two or three moves after.
Lex Fridman (1:08:28.560)
Alpha Zero can wait like five moves.
Lex Fridman (1:08:31.280)
So basically you'll have, potentially with wrestling,
Lex Fridman (1:08:35.520)
you might have a robot that like puts itself
Ben Askren (1:08:38.440)
in bad positions, but in a certain kind of way
Lex Fridman (1:08:40.840)
then that will actually turn out.
Ben Askren (1:08:42.680)
Lures the opponent in to trap.
Lex Fridman (1:08:45.080)
Exactly.
Ben Askren (1:08:45.920)
That's what my style is based on.
Lex Fridman (1:08:46.760)
Exactly.
Ben Askren (1:08:47.580)
You basically narrow, one thing to do
Lex Fridman (1:08:50.880)
is you narrow the set of choices.
Ben Askren (1:08:52.460)
You put yourself in a bad position,
Lex Fridman (1:08:53.880)
but it narrows the set of choices.
Ben Askren (1:08:55.200)
For them, because they're not used to it.
Lex Fridman (1:08:56.400)
Yeah, they're not used to it.
Lex Fridman (1:08:58.120)
And then you drag them into your, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:09:02.320)
So, but there's also, the problem is
Ben Askren (1:09:05.280)
there's mechanical issues.
Lex Fridman (1:09:06.880)
Like it's actually just difficult to build robots
Ben Askren (1:09:09.040)
that are able to sense,
Lex Fridman (1:09:11.320)
because we have sensation throughout our body, yeah.
Ben Askren (1:09:14.360)
It's just difficult to build that kind of robot.
Lex Fridman (1:09:16.020)
It's expensive.
Ben Askren (1:09:16.860)
You start talking about multimillion dollars,
Lex Fridman (1:09:19.600)
and then people start asking you questions.
Lex Fridman (1:09:21.820)
Why did you invest all of this money?
Lex Fridman (1:09:23.560)
They wanna see what moves they do, duh, hello.
Ben Askren (1:09:26.920)
It could be a better investment.
Lex Fridman (1:09:28.360)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:09:29.680)
So I mentioned John Smith.
Lex Fridman (1:09:32.000)
He is, if people don't know,
Ben Askren (1:09:33.360)
one of the great wrestlers, wrestling coaches ever.
Lex Fridman (1:09:36.320)
He's also creative like you.
Ben Askren (1:09:37.920)
He spoke really highly of you.
Lex Fridman (1:09:39.680)
What do you think about that guy?
Lex Fridman (1:09:40.720)
Did you guys ever work together?
Lex Fridman (1:09:42.200)
Not really.
Lex Fridman (1:09:43.160)
So you know what, when I was a senior,
Lex Fridman (1:09:45.000)
and I had the people wrestling in my head,
Ben Askren (1:09:47.000)
I was lucky enough to be doing,
Lex Fridman (1:09:50.820)
I was pretty much a graduate,
Lex Fridman (1:09:51.720)
so I did an independent study with the sports psychology.
Lex Fridman (1:09:53.760)
I was potentially going to go to grad school
Ben Askren (1:09:55.680)
for sports psychology.
Lex Fridman (1:09:56.520)
Well, I actually did nine credits,
Lex Fridman (1:09:57.680)
and then I just decided I didn't want to do it anymore.
Lex Fridman (1:10:00.440)
I continued learning on my own.
Lex Fridman (1:10:02.880)
But I had an independent study with the guy
Lex Fridman (1:10:05.200)
who's the head of USA Track and Field Sports Psych.
Lex Fridman (1:10:07.800)
So here was the class was,
Lex Fridman (1:10:09.480)
I got to go sit down and talk with him for an hour,
Lex Fridman (1:10:11.520)
and he was like fascinated by me.
Lex Fridman (1:10:13.320)
So he didn't let me do homework.
Ben Askren (1:10:14.900)
It was like the greatest three credits ever.
Lex Fridman (1:10:16.480)
We just talked.
Ben Askren (1:10:17.340)
I learned so much.
Lex Fridman (1:10:18.180)
It was so awesome.
Lex Fridman (1:10:20.280)
But so I started, so one time it came up,
Lex Fridman (1:10:22.480)
I had these robot, or people wrestling in my head,
Lex Fridman (1:10:24.920)
and he said, well, who else do you think,
Lex Fridman (1:10:26.800)
but John Smith happened.
Lex Fridman (1:10:27.820)
So I went and got John Smith's number,
Lex Fridman (1:10:29.080)
and I called him and said,
Lex Fridman (1:10:29.920)
hey, you ever had these people wrestling in your head?
Lex Fridman (1:10:32.520)
And he said, yeah, but as soon as I stopped coaching,
Ben Askren (1:10:34.680)
they went away.
Lex Fridman (1:10:35.640)
Same thing happened to me.
Ben Askren (1:10:36.920)
As soon as I started coaching, they went away.
Lex Fridman (1:10:38.680)
So if I really force myself now,
Lex Fridman (1:10:40.540)
and I'm like, I see something in practice,
Lex Fridman (1:10:43.160)
and it's really higher level,
Ben Askren (1:10:44.200)
because high school wrestling,
Lex Fridman (1:10:45.240)
I don't want to, maybe I feel bad,
Lex Fridman (1:10:46.560)
but it's a little bit lower level, right?
Lex Fridman (1:10:48.400)
So if Keegan, for example, who won the tournament,
Ben Askren (1:10:50.560)
if he's struggling with a problem or asks me a question,
Lex Fridman (1:10:54.040)
and I can force myself to see the bodies moving
Lex Fridman (1:10:57.640)
and think about it again,
Lex Fridman (1:10:58.960)
kind of like I was in early age,
Lex Fridman (1:11:00.380)
but it won't just flow there anymore.
Lex Fridman (1:11:02.840)
So he said it went away, and for me, it went away also.
Ben Askren (1:11:06.440)
By the way, if we can pause on the bodies in your head,
Lex Fridman (1:11:14.360)
how are they generating new ideas?
Lex Fridman (1:11:16.620)
Are they just kind of?
Lex Fridman (1:11:18.000)
I don't know.
Ben Askren (1:11:19.160)
You tell me.
Lex Fridman (1:11:20.240)
So it's just, they're just scrambling in your head?
Ben Askren (1:11:24.000)
It would be specifically based on a problem
Lex Fridman (1:11:27.000)
I was struggling with, or a specific position, you know?
Ben Askren (1:11:30.280)
It goes in for a single, and then go from there.
Lex Fridman (1:11:32.800)
Yeah, so I'm sitting in geography class,
Lex Fridman (1:11:34.940)
and I don't have to work that hard, because it's easy, right?
Lex Fridman (1:11:38.240)
And yeah, I'm just sitting there acting
Ben Askren (1:11:40.720)
like I'm looking at the board,
Lex Fridman (1:11:41.760)
and these guys are wrestling,
Lex Fridman (1:11:42.760)
and I'm watching them wrestle,
Lex Fridman (1:11:43.960)
and yeah, sometimes they come up with a really good solution.
Lex Fridman (1:11:47.980)
Is there somebody you look up to style wise?
Lex Fridman (1:11:52.360)
Like Gable, John Smith, all these legend status people.
Ben Askren (1:11:57.200)
Probably Gable, or it's a Gable.
Lex Fridman (1:11:59.560)
John Smith, but after the fact.
Lex Fridman (1:12:01.040)
So the problem with wrestling in my era
Lex Fridman (1:12:03.380)
was you couldn't watch it.
Lex Fridman (1:12:04.760)
There was no access, right?
Lex Fridman (1:12:06.240)
It wasn't really available.
Ben Askren (1:12:07.560)
Even if you want to say, go find a bunch of John Smith,
Lex Fridman (1:12:10.560)
man, they're kind of hard to find, right?
Ben Askren (1:12:11.740)
There's a couple of them on YouTube,
Lex Fridman (1:12:13.080)
but I've obviously seen all of those,
Lex Fridman (1:12:15.040)
but in my era, there really wasn't any of it.
Lex Fridman (1:12:18.080)
So it was hard to be a fan of something,
Lex Fridman (1:12:19.560)
and that's why wrestling has, the fans are going like this,
Lex Fridman (1:12:23.200)
because now you can flip on the Flow app,
Lex Fridman (1:12:25.740)
and you can watch something that's happening in Europe, right?
Lex Fridman (1:12:29.340)
We can do this easily, so we can be a fan of people.
Lex Fridman (1:12:32.640)
So now I'm more a fan of wrestling than I was then,
Lex Fridman (1:12:35.420)
because there just was no access.
Lex Fridman (1:12:37.560)
So now I can watch someone I like,
Lex Fridman (1:12:39.040)
and say, oh shit, that guy's wrestling.
Ben Askren (1:12:41.080)
Oh, boom, I flip my phone on, I watch them wrestle.
Lex Fridman (1:12:43.600)
That type of thing.
Ben Askren (1:12:44.440)
You know, and a quick rant.
Lex Fridman (1:12:47.000)
It's really frustrating that you can't watch the Olympics.
Ben Askren (1:12:50.600)
Oh my god, it's so frustrating.
Lex Fridman (1:12:52.680)
I've been, I think I'm gonna go to war on this point.
Ben Askren (1:12:55.920)
Go to NBC's headquarters, I'll go with you.
Lex Fridman (1:12:57.760)
You got a soldier here.
Ben Askren (1:12:59.720)
I was talking to Jimmy, Jimmy Pedro,
Lex Fridman (1:13:02.480)
he was surprised by this, too.
Ben Askren (1:13:04.000)
Most matches, you can't see, even,
Lex Fridman (1:13:06.680)
you talk about like a comeback, Gable Steelers,
Lex Fridman (1:13:10.640)
and you can't see the full match.
Lex Fridman (1:13:13.760)
You get like a crappy highlight.
Lex Fridman (1:13:15.840)
So the two biggest things, and really the three,
Lex Fridman (1:13:19.600)
the NCAA championships on ESPN,
Ben Askren (1:13:22.120)
the Olympic trials are on NBC, and the Olympics are on NBC.
Lex Fridman (1:13:25.080)
And these companies are so big,
Ben Askren (1:13:27.400)
they don't have a department dedicated
Lex Fridman (1:13:28.880)
to selling the rights to that footage, right?
Lex Fridman (1:13:31.960)
So the rights to wrestling footage,
Lex Fridman (1:13:34.120)
which no one really cares all that much about,
Ben Askren (1:13:35.560)
except a niche, are the exact same as track and field,
Lex Fridman (1:13:38.600)
or basketball in the Olympics.
Lex Fridman (1:13:40.860)
So yes, all of this stuff is completely inaccessible to us.
Lex Fridman (1:13:44.600)
The NCAAs, the Olympic trials, and the Olympics,
Ben Askren (1:13:47.200)
you can't go watch old film on it, it sucks.
Lex Fridman (1:13:49.520)
So yeah.
Ben Askren (1:13:50.360)
Yeah, old, the current film.
Lex Fridman (1:13:51.200)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:13:52.640)
So you can't even watch the Gable match?
Lex Fridman (1:13:54.600)
The Gable Steelers, no.
Ben Askren (1:13:55.680)
They did a, you know, they do something
Lex Fridman (1:13:57.440)
that annoys the fuck out of me.
Lex Fridman (1:13:58.960)
What?
Lex Fridman (1:13:59.800)
Okay, they do like a three or two minute highlight.
Lex Fridman (1:14:05.320)
So it's like they capture the most important thing,
Lex Fridman (1:14:09.000)
but it's all about the buildup.
Ben Askren (1:14:11.840)
Yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:14:12.680)
It's like that very beginning when you step on the mat,
Lex Fridman (1:14:15.800)
and the nerves, and you walk out, and like that,
Lex Fridman (1:14:19.280)
I mean, I don't know, you miss,
Ben Askren (1:14:22.720)
then when the triumph happens, or the heartbreak happens,
Lex Fridman (1:14:26.720)
it has that much more power.
Ben Askren (1:14:28.600)
Yeah, if you want to go to war with NBC or ESPN,
Lex Fridman (1:14:30.800)
I'm happy to join that.
Ben Askren (1:14:32.120)
I think I'm fortunate it's the IOC.
Lex Fridman (1:14:34.960)
Well, I mean, is the IOC on that?
Ben Askren (1:14:37.600)
IOC is selling, for the Olympics,
Lex Fridman (1:14:40.240)
is the one that's making.
Ben Askren (1:14:41.920)
Well, so NBC broadcasts,
Lex Fridman (1:14:43.560)
so they obviously have the live rights.
Ben Askren (1:14:45.600)
You would think they would have recorded,
Lex Fridman (1:14:47.400)
if they, I mean, they're the ones recording it,
Ben Askren (1:14:48.880)
you would think they keep the rights when you think.
Lex Fridman (1:14:50.640)
No, no, no, they're getting a license of it.
Ben Askren (1:14:53.680)
They're getting exclusive like license,
Lex Fridman (1:14:55.440)
but like the, you know, for example,
Ben Askren (1:14:58.800)
I've had this, I talked to Travis Stevens, the Judo player,
Lex Fridman (1:15:02.520)
and there's a really sort of famous match,
Ben Askren (1:15:06.720)
just a heartbreak in his career from 2012 Olympics,
Lex Fridman (1:15:11.600)
where he goes against a German, Oli Bischoff, whatever.
Ben Askren (1:15:14.360)
It's a 20 minute match to go to war,
Lex Fridman (1:15:16.600)
and that's not available anywhere,
Lex Fridman (1:15:18.320)
but it's uploaded on YouTube and set to private.
Lex Fridman (1:15:22.800)
The reason I know this is on the IOC channel.
Lex Fridman (1:15:26.200)
So they've uploaded all of these matches.
Lex Fridman (1:15:28.400)
They have it and put it up.
Lex Fridman (1:15:29.800)
So actually, so my Olympic match, the one I won,
Lex Fridman (1:15:34.240)
got put public, and so I don't know if it was private,
Ben Askren (1:15:37.040)
it got put up on YouTube.
Lex Fridman (1:15:39.120)
I was allergic to it the week of my Jake Paul fight.
Ben Askren (1:15:42.040)
It was so dumb.
Lex Fridman (1:15:42.880)
I'm like, why, this is 13 years later, this is bullshit.
Ben Askren (1:15:46.400)
Like this should have been up.
Lex Fridman (1:15:47.800)
So, I mean, okay, so what about Olympic trials footage?
Lex Fridman (1:15:51.600)
That has to be the USOC then or NBC?
Lex Fridman (1:15:55.720)
So I know like, okay, so I know Flow, right?
Ben Askren (1:15:57.280)
Cause I worked with them.
Lex Fridman (1:15:58.280)
I know if Flow buys your event or whatever, right?
Ben Askren (1:16:01.880)
They buy the rights, generally in the contract,
Lex Fridman (1:16:04.520)
they'll have rights to both live stream it
Lex Fridman (1:16:06.400)
and then use that footage at any point moving forward.
Lex Fridman (1:16:09.400)
So those matches live on Flow's website.
Ben Askren (1:16:12.760)
That's why I would be surprised
Lex Fridman (1:16:13.920)
if NBC didn't have something similar.
Ben Askren (1:16:16.880)
Flow does a pretty good job of providing
Lex Fridman (1:16:19.000)
like a place where you can watch all these matches.
Ben Askren (1:16:22.080)
NBC does not.
Lex Fridman (1:16:23.000)
Does not, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:16:23.840)
And also there's an argument with Flow as well,
Lex Fridman (1:16:27.120)
but certainly with Olympics.
Ben Askren (1:16:28.680)
There's a difference between what Flow does
Lex Fridman (1:16:30.920)
and what the Olympics represent.
Lex Fridman (1:16:32.640)
What do you mean by that?
Lex Fridman (1:16:33.800)
Like it feels like the Olympics,
Ben Askren (1:16:35.840)
which is what the charter says,
Lex Fridman (1:16:38.080)
should be as accessible as possible.
Ben Askren (1:16:41.320)
Yes, that's true.
Lex Fridman (1:16:42.160)
Like you should really lower the barrier
Ben Askren (1:16:44.120)
for entry for the Olympics.
Lex Fridman (1:16:45.800)
You know that's what the charter says,
Lex Fridman (1:16:47.040)
but those people in the IOC,
Lex Fridman (1:16:48.160)
these are the worst people ever.
Ben Askren (1:16:50.400)
They're very bad.
Lex Fridman (1:16:51.240)
Well, they're not bad.
Ben Askren (1:16:52.640)
They just lost touch of the dream they once had
Lex Fridman (1:16:55.720)
when they joined the IOC.
Ben Askren (1:16:56.880)
Well, I would argue all the way back
Lex Fridman (1:16:58.920)
that these are rich fat cats who,
Ben Askren (1:17:01.160)
like I get so mad about the NCAA,
Lex Fridman (1:17:02.760)
which finally now got rid of this bullshit term amateurism.
Ben Askren (1:17:07.080)
It's like, well, there's some holy grail
Lex Fridman (1:17:08.720)
where you can't make money to be an amateur athlete,
Lex Fridman (1:17:11.120)
but the people who own the IOC
Lex Fridman (1:17:12.800)
or the people who own the institutions,
Ben Askren (1:17:15.320)
college institutions are making boatloads of money
Lex Fridman (1:17:17.040)
off of you, that's crap.
Lex Fridman (1:17:19.160)
So you competed, like you said, at the 2008 Olympics.
Lex Fridman (1:17:24.560)
Did you believe you can win gold?
Ben Askren (1:17:26.280)
Yeah, absolutely.
Lex Fridman (1:17:27.840)
So your mental game was on point.
Ben Askren (1:17:30.480)
Yeah, I was ready.
Lex Fridman (1:17:31.400)
So what went wrong?
Ben Askren (1:17:33.400)
This wasn't good enough.
Lex Fridman (1:17:34.800)
That was what I said.
Ben Askren (1:17:35.760)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:17:36.600)
Yeah, I mean, so at that point in time,
Ben Askren (1:17:39.920)
it was my first year of international competition.
Lex Fridman (1:17:41.760)
So when I came out in 2007,
Ben Askren (1:17:43.320)
it was my first time making 74 kilograms,
Lex Fridman (1:17:45.280)
which is pretty small for me.
Ben Askren (1:17:47.520)
I had some failures, but then quickly I turned that around
Lex Fridman (1:17:50.840)
and I was having success in America.
Ben Askren (1:17:53.440)
I was beating everyone.
Lex Fridman (1:17:54.800)
I don't wanna say easy, but yeah,
Ben Askren (1:17:58.000)
I was doing really well.
Lex Fridman (1:18:00.400)
I went international one time,
Lex Fridman (1:18:02.360)
and there was one match I got cheated on.
Lex Fridman (1:18:05.680)
The Russians, they're cheaters.
Ben Askren (1:18:07.840)
Excuse you, Ukraine, not Russia.
Lex Fridman (1:18:10.600)
I lost one real match where I actually lost,
Lex Fridman (1:18:13.560)
and it was to Denis Sarguch,
Lex Fridman (1:18:15.520)
who would go on to win three world titles,
Lex Fridman (1:18:17.080)
but he was behind the T of that year,
Lex Fridman (1:18:18.920)
and it was competitive.
Lex Fridman (1:18:20.160)
So I knew, okay, I'm going with the best guys in the world.
Lex Fridman (1:18:23.800)
I beat a bunch of other guys who were good
Lex Fridman (1:18:27.640)
and had passed decent results.
Lex Fridman (1:18:29.600)
So I knew I was right there.
Ben Askren (1:18:31.960)
Unfortunately, I ran into this guy, Ivan Fundora,
Lex Fridman (1:18:35.040)
and I had someone do scouting reports for him,
Ben Askren (1:18:38.120)
actually my high school coach,
Lex Fridman (1:18:38.960)
who now coaches for our academy, John Messimerich,
Lex Fridman (1:18:41.520)
and Fundora was the worst stylistic matchup.
Lex Fridman (1:18:43.520)
I got him, and I lost him second round.
Lex Fridman (1:18:46.880)
So I wasn't good enough.
Lex Fridman (1:18:49.000)
Had I decided to keep wrestling,
Ben Askren (1:18:50.960)
I probably would have gotten better,
Lex Fridman (1:18:52.040)
but at that point, I just wasn't in the cards.
Lex Fridman (1:18:53.840)
So in your division was, like you said, it's the T of,
Lex Fridman (1:18:56.440)
if I said it's the T of, that guy's special.
Ben Askren (1:19:01.120)
He's very special.
Lex Fridman (1:19:02.240)
So that would be my other guy that you asked earlier
Ben Askren (1:19:04.120)
who I enjoyed watching, and that was a guy I,
Lex Fridman (1:19:06.880)
again, it was kind of after the fact
Ben Askren (1:19:08.200)
because it was hard to access footage,
Lex Fridman (1:19:10.400)
but he was a lot of fun to watch.
Lex Fridman (1:19:12.280)
What do you think made him great?
Lex Fridman (1:19:15.520)
A lot of people talk about him
Ben Askren (1:19:17.280)
as potentially one of the greatest ever.
Lex Fridman (1:19:20.280)
Absolutely.
Ben Askren (1:19:21.120)
I mean, so he won six and three,
Lex Fridman (1:19:22.920)
six Worlds, three Olympics, nine total,
Ben Askren (1:19:26.720)
which there's only one or two people above that.
Lex Fridman (1:19:30.160)
So again, it was hard to watch any live footage of him,
Lex Fridman (1:19:32.960)
but from what I've seen, his feel is different.
Lex Fridman (1:19:35.360)
He was just ahead of his time,
Lex Fridman (1:19:36.960)
and the feel and the touch he had
Lex Fridman (1:19:38.480)
for certain moves and different things,
Ben Askren (1:19:40.400)
because obviously physically he's kind of unimposing.
Lex Fridman (1:19:43.200)
He's taller than skinnier,
Ben Askren (1:19:45.720)
which it can work in wrestling,
Lex Fridman (1:19:47.760)
but it is by less represented.
Lex Fridman (1:19:50.560)
So yeah, he was special, so good.
Lex Fridman (1:19:54.520)
Do you take any inspiration from,
Ben Askren (1:19:58.520)
let's talk about Dagestan in general.
Lex Fridman (1:20:00.200)
What do you think makes those wrestlers great?
Ben Askren (1:20:02.680)
Yeah, it's fascinating.
Lex Fridman (1:20:04.120)
Have you read the book, The Talent Code?
Ben Askren (1:20:06.280)
Yeah. It's great.
Lex Fridman (1:20:07.200)
And that kind of talks about these talent hotspots
Ben Askren (1:20:09.120)
all around the world.
Lex Fridman (1:20:09.960)
So now obviously with our wrestling academies,
Ben Askren (1:20:12.040)
we try to take some lessons from that and apply it.
Lex Fridman (1:20:15.480)
I got to assume, they didn't cover Dagestan
Ben Askren (1:20:17.320)
in that book specifically,
Lex Fridman (1:20:19.200)
but I got to assume a lot of the same principles
Ben Askren (1:20:23.240)
that are in that book apply to Dagestan in wrestling.
Lex Fridman (1:20:26.400)
They did South Korea and women's golf.
Ben Askren (1:20:29.720)
They did Curacao in baseball.
Lex Fridman (1:20:31.440)
They picked a lot of these other places
Ben Askren (1:20:32.560)
that were really elite.
Lex Fridman (1:20:33.960)
I think it was maybe Moscow in women's tennis also.
Lex Fridman (1:20:37.840)
So I think all of these things
Lex Fridman (1:20:39.600)
that make any group great organization
Ben Askren (1:20:43.280)
is probably the same things that's happening there.
Lex Fridman (1:20:45.400)
Well, the hardship, I mean,
Ben Askren (1:20:47.640)
is there something specific about wrestling
Lex Fridman (1:20:49.440)
that can create so many great champions?
Lex Fridman (1:20:54.440)
From that area?
Lex Fridman (1:20:55.400)
So obviously they all love the big deal.
Ben Askren (1:20:58.960)
Wrestling specifically is a big deal there.
Lex Fridman (1:21:01.200)
They do Sambo also, obviously.
Lex Fridman (1:21:03.720)
So that's part of it is a lot of the kids are doing it.
Lex Fridman (1:21:05.920)
They obviously are rough tumble, tough life.
Ben Askren (1:21:08.640)
Getting a lot of fights.
Lex Fridman (1:21:09.840)
And then I think that also that a lot of them,
Ben Askren (1:21:12.520)
it is a way out right there.
Lex Fridman (1:21:14.320)
The elite level athletes in that part of the world,
Ben Askren (1:21:16.800)
from my understanding, are really well compensated
Lex Fridman (1:21:18.680)
compared to what the average person makes
Lex Fridman (1:21:21.280)
and they're treated really well.
Lex Fridman (1:21:22.200)
So people see it as a way out.
Ben Askren (1:21:23.960)
Whereas like, and then honestly,
Lex Fridman (1:21:25.800)
if America is getting better,
Lex Fridman (1:21:27.800)
but in 2008, the reason I went to MMA
Lex Fridman (1:21:29.520)
was because I didn't want to be poor my whole life.
Lex Fridman (1:21:32.440)
You know what I'm saying?
Lex Fridman (1:21:33.280)
It sucked.
Ben Askren (1:21:34.120)
It's like, well, I don't want to make $20,000
Lex Fridman (1:21:35.040)
for the next 48 years.
Lex Fridman (1:21:37.120)
So I'm going to go do something else.
Lex Fridman (1:21:39.040)
If I could have made, even I didn't need to be rich, right?
Ben Askren (1:21:41.080)
If I could have made $100,000 or $70,000 wrestling,
Lex Fridman (1:21:43.560)
I probably would have kept wrestling.
Lex Fridman (1:21:46.200)
So I think there's factors
Lex Fridman (1:21:48.200)
and obviously now they have a really like,
Ben Askren (1:21:51.000)
a bunch of really good people in one area.
Lex Fridman (1:21:52.880)
So there's probably, and it's been going on for a long time.
Lex Fridman (1:21:55.400)
So there's probably been a bunch of like adults
Lex Fridman (1:21:57.120)
and coaches that are coming back and helping that progress.
Lex Fridman (1:21:59.640)
So yeah, a lot of those things that happen.
Lex Fridman (1:22:01.640)
So I'm definitely going to travel there to talk to them
Ben Askren (1:22:04.240)
because I can speak Russian.
Lex Fridman (1:22:05.280)
It makes it very,
Ben Askren (1:22:08.560)
makes me uniquely qualified to.
Lex Fridman (1:22:13.720)
My brother can speak a little bit of Russian.
Ben Askren (1:22:15.240)
Your brother can? Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:22:16.960)
Okay, like a little bit like he swears and.
Ben Askren (1:22:19.680)
No, no, no, no.
Lex Fridman (1:22:20.520)
Like he would, oh man, don't, don't make me oversell.
Ben Askren (1:22:23.920)
I think he would be able to have a conversation with you.
Lex Fridman (1:22:25.720)
I think.
Ben Askren (1:22:26.560)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:22:27.600)
Probably not like you.
Lex Fridman (1:22:28.480)
What's the, what's the reason he knows Russian?
Lex Fridman (1:22:31.160)
I don't know why he got obsessed with languages.
Lex Fridman (1:22:33.040)
And so his college degree is actually,
Lex Fridman (1:22:36.360)
what are they called?
Ben Askren (1:22:37.200)
Interdis, where you have three minors.
Lex Fridman (1:22:38.680)
So he had a minor in Russian, a minor in Spanish
Lex Fridman (1:22:43.120)
and maybe Japanese, I'm messing up.
Lex Fridman (1:22:46.200)
It's definitely, it's Russian and Spanish for sure.
Ben Askren (1:22:48.320)
I don't know what the third one is.
Lex Fridman (1:22:49.720)
No, but yeah, Dagestan, it's really fascinating.
Lex Fridman (1:22:52.840)
But the emphasis on technique, the lighter drilling,
Lex Fridman (1:22:57.000)
like they don't really go super hard.
Ben Askren (1:22:59.040)
Yeah, and I only spent a couple, so I was there,
Lex Fridman (1:23:01.320)
I was in Vladikavkaz in 2008.
Ben Askren (1:23:03.280)
That was where the World Cup was.
Lex Fridman (1:23:04.920)
We had to train there for like two days afterwards.
Lex Fridman (1:23:06.960)
So I didn't get to dig deep,
Lex Fridman (1:23:10.480)
dig deep into what was going on or anything.
Lex Fridman (1:23:14.160)
But yeah, I mean, I think sparring is very beneficial
Lex Fridman (1:23:19.280)
for wrestling, not like sparring MMA is we fight, right?
Ben Askren (1:23:24.440)
Sparring in wrestling is, so I always just describe it
Lex Fridman (1:23:27.440)
to be really simple.
Ben Askren (1:23:29.360)
If we're drilling, it's relatively 0% resistance.
Lex Fridman (1:23:31.880)
If we're going as hard as we can, that's 100%.
Ben Askren (1:23:33.840)
There's all this gray area in the middle that's sparring,
Lex Fridman (1:23:36.400)
right?
Lex Fridman (1:23:37.240)
So if you have a good relationship,
Lex Fridman (1:23:40.760)
like college me and my brother, we could just go
Lex Fridman (1:23:43.360)
and we know where each other's at.
Lex Fridman (1:23:45.280)
We don't even have to talk about it, right?
Lex Fridman (1:23:46.520)
But like in my wrestling club, I'll say,
Lex Fridman (1:23:47.960)
okay, hey, I want you guys to go 50% in this position.
Ben Askren (1:23:51.500)
Or I want the high crotch guy, I want him to shoot
Lex Fridman (1:23:54.240)
and this is for him, so I want him to go 70.
Lex Fridman (1:23:56.600)
And the defensive guy, I want you to go 40.
Lex Fridman (1:23:58.240)
So you're not supposed to be trying to win here.
Ben Askren (1:23:59.960)
You're gonna go a little later.
Lex Fridman (1:24:00.800)
I want you to give him some looks, you know?
Lex Fridman (1:24:03.480)
So I think it has really taken hold in America.
Lex Fridman (1:24:05.280)
I think it's really beneficial for success.
Lex Fridman (1:24:06.960)
And I think that's, I mean, America's doing better
Lex Fridman (1:24:09.480)
than we've ever done historically.
Ben Askren (1:24:11.000)
Well, that 70 and 40, that's like an art form
Lex Fridman (1:24:13.200)
to find that right place,
Ben Askren (1:24:14.360)
because the really good people I've trained with,
Lex Fridman (1:24:17.800)
they go much closer to 100% speed wise,
Lex Fridman (1:24:23.600)
but without forcing things the way you would
Lex Fridman (1:24:27.360)
when you're going.
Ben Askren (1:24:28.200)
It's some weird combination of things that,
Lex Fridman (1:24:30.720)
like if you truly earn a technique,
Ben Askren (1:24:34.200)
then you're given that technique.
Lex Fridman (1:24:36.520)
But if you don't, you don't.
Lex Fridman (1:24:39.240)
And then it becomes much less injury prone.
Lex Fridman (1:24:42.280)
It becomes somehow more fun, more dynamic.
Ben Askren (1:24:44.600)
You don't get stuck in positions.
Lex Fridman (1:24:46.480)
It's just a lot of movement.
Ben Askren (1:24:48.560)
Yeah, the one thing, so you and John talked about,
Lex Fridman (1:24:51.600)
like different ways to learn and get better.
Lex Fridman (1:24:54.080)
And so I think John obviously innovated
Lex Fridman (1:24:55.640)
within the sport of jiu jitsu.
Lex Fridman (1:24:58.880)
And so for us, and maybe there's a differentiator for us.
Lex Fridman (1:25:03.560)
I think about it like.
Ben Askren (1:25:04.400)
Sorry to interrupt.
Lex Fridman (1:25:05.280)
You have this academy and you sent me this plan.
Ben Askren (1:25:07.160)
They have like a really well thought through plan
Lex Fridman (1:25:10.040)
for how to develop a good wrestler.
Lex Fridman (1:25:12.280)
So I think it's, for me there's four categories, right?
Lex Fridman (1:25:16.960)
There's the teaching, which is like, you don't know shit.
Ben Askren (1:25:20.240)
You're coming in and I'm showing you the move
Lex Fridman (1:25:22.400)
and you're literally going out there and you're trying.
Ben Askren (1:25:24.680)
To me, that's not even drilling.
Lex Fridman (1:25:26.240)
That's like teaching, like you're trying to learn something.
Lex Fridman (1:25:29.480)
So obviously in someone's earlier periods,
Lex Fridman (1:25:32.360)
they're spending a lot of time in that phase
Ben Askren (1:25:34.920)
because they literally don't even know
Lex Fridman (1:25:36.400)
how to move their bodies the right way.
Ben Askren (1:25:38.680)
Once you learn the skill, then there's the drilling
Lex Fridman (1:25:40.920)
because you absolutely have to get those reps
Ben Askren (1:25:43.200)
to become really proficient in that movement
Lex Fridman (1:25:46.160)
and then the sparring and then the live, right?
Lex Fridman (1:25:48.240)
And so like, I think obviously by the time you get
Lex Fridman (1:25:51.400)
to the kind of, I don't wanna say end point, right?
Lex Fridman (1:25:53.800)
But further on, the time you spend teaching is so,
Lex Fridman (1:25:58.320)
I don't wanna say, I'm sorry,
Ben Askren (1:25:59.560)
in the learning teaching phase is not insignificant,
Lex Fridman (1:26:02.520)
but it's so much smaller because to someone
Ben Askren (1:26:04.040)
who's really good, who I've coached for 10 years,
Lex Fridman (1:26:06.080)
I don't have to give this big long drawn out explanation.
Ben Askren (1:26:08.640)
I just have to say, hey, move your hand a little differently
Lex Fridman (1:26:11.600)
or just do this, right?
Ben Askren (1:26:13.000)
We don't have to spend any time there.
Lex Fridman (1:26:14.400)
So I think that's like something that consumes
Ben Askren (1:26:16.400)
for the younger kids, say five through 12 or 13,
Lex Fridman (1:26:19.920)
we're consuming a massive amount of time there
Ben Askren (1:26:22.600)
on that teaching learning phase.
Lex Fridman (1:26:24.760)
And then as we get older, that time wanes a lot.
Lex Fridman (1:26:28.560)
But that makes total sense, right?
Lex Fridman (1:26:30.080)
Yeah.
Ben Askren (1:26:31.120)
It's funny because when you look at like jiu jitsu schools,
Lex Fridman (1:26:34.480)
they spend a lot of time in the teaching learning
Lex Fridman (1:26:36.920)
and then the live, like there's not enough drilling.
Lex Fridman (1:26:40.160)
I like how you draw a distinction there
Ben Askren (1:26:42.240)
because it feels like you're always starting from scratch.
Lex Fridman (1:26:45.680)
Like people have like very crappy short term memory.
Ben Askren (1:26:48.840)
Like they're not, like the way teaching is done
Lex Fridman (1:26:52.900)
is you show a technique from scratch
Lex Fridman (1:26:55.080)
and it seems disjoint.
Lex Fridman (1:26:57.080)
It is for sure, especially if you have a class
Ben Askren (1:26:58.840)
that's been with you for a while,
Lex Fridman (1:27:00.280)
you don't have to start from scratch.
Ben Askren (1:27:01.400)
You can say, hey, let's focus on this one little thing here
Lex Fridman (1:27:04.200)
or let's, after we do this, let's do that,
Lex Fridman (1:27:07.160)
and you kind of put, start putting it all together.
Lex Fridman (1:27:09.280)
And then with jiu jitsu, the thing that I really struggled
Ben Askren (1:27:12.720)
with was a couple of things.
Lex Fridman (1:27:14.020)
It was, and this is not speaking for all the jiu jitians,
Ben Askren (1:27:17.600)
my personal experience through the sport.
Lex Fridman (1:27:19.880)
And I actually found my, so when I unretired,
Ben Askren (1:27:21.880)
I found someone really great that I loved
Lex Fridman (1:27:23.680)
and I really wish it was Mark Lehman.
Ben Askren (1:27:25.120)
I don't know if you know him at all.
Lex Fridman (1:27:26.200)
I wish I would have found him earlier
Ben Askren (1:27:28.480)
because he was just tremendous.
Lex Fridman (1:27:31.440)
But number one, there's no drilling.
Lex Fridman (1:27:32.540)
So it's like, in wrestling, I can boil down to,
Lex Fridman (1:27:37.500)
I can probably name you the best six moves, right?
Lex Fridman (1:27:40.640)
So we need, as younger people, single leg, right?
Lex Fridman (1:27:43.580)
Single leg's gonna be the most proficient takedown.
Ben Askren (1:27:45.280)
It always has been, I don't know,
Lex Fridman (1:27:47.040)
probably always will be,
Ben Askren (1:27:47.880)
unless they figure out something different.
Lex Fridman (1:27:51.480)
The robot.
Ben Askren (1:27:52.320)
The robot figures out something different.
Lex Fridman (1:27:53.440)
We're gonna shoot a lot of single legs.
Lex Fridman (1:27:54.760)
Why?
Lex Fridman (1:27:55.600)
Because everyone's gonna do that, right?
Ben Askren (1:27:56.760)
We're gonna shoot a lot of single legs.
Lex Fridman (1:27:58.400)
So just like, say, an armbar or some type of sweep, right?
Lex Fridman (1:28:02.080)
Why can't we go get 50 reps there?
Lex Fridman (1:28:03.920)
Hey, by the time I've been in your jiu jitsu school
Ben Askren (1:28:06.540)
for two years, I better know a fucking armbar.
Lex Fridman (1:28:08.360)
I better know it.
Lex Fridman (1:28:09.480)
So don't spend 10 minutes teaching me.
Lex Fridman (1:28:11.320)
Just tell me to go hit 50 reps.
Lex Fridman (1:28:12.920)
And then if, when I'm hitting my reps,
Lex Fridman (1:28:14.660)
if there's something I'm doing wrong,
Ben Askren (1:28:16.440)
then just say, hey, Ben,
Lex Fridman (1:28:17.960)
move your leg a little bit that way
Lex Fridman (1:28:19.280)
or raise your hips up a little more, right?
Lex Fridman (1:28:21.080)
Like, correct as you're drilling
Lex Fridman (1:28:23.280)
so you're getting all these reps at it
Lex Fridman (1:28:24.680)
so you're becoming more proficient.
Lex Fridman (1:28:26.360)
And then the other thing I really struggled with was,
Lex Fridman (1:28:27.880)
to your point during live,
Lex Fridman (1:28:30.160)
so many times it's just this five minute go, go, go.
Lex Fridman (1:28:33.160)
And that's not the most efficient way to learn
Ben Askren (1:28:35.240)
because when you have two people,
Lex Fridman (1:28:37.240)
especially when they're focused on winning,
Lex Fridman (1:28:39.240)
and you say go, they're gonna go to wherever they do best.
Lex Fridman (1:28:41.960)
Well, if I'm trying to make you good at something,
Ben Askren (1:28:43.640)
I don't want you doing what you do best all the time.
Lex Fridman (1:28:45.880)
I need you doing some other things, right?
Ben Askren (1:28:47.800)
If you have a great single leg
Lex Fridman (1:28:48.920)
but you can't shoot to the other side of the body,
Lex Fridman (1:28:51.020)
we need to work on that, right?
Lex Fridman (1:28:52.780)
You need to start shooting the other side.
Ben Askren (1:28:54.640)
There's some sense that you,
Lex Fridman (1:28:56.480)
it's not like you should be told what to work on
Lex Fridman (1:28:58.720)
but you should be told to work on the thing
Lex Fridman (1:29:00.920)
that you wanna work on.
Ben Askren (1:29:02.320)
Meaning, I don't know, maybe you can comment on this,
Lex Fridman (1:29:05.140)
but everybody develops a different game
Ben Askren (1:29:07.740)
as you get better and better.
Lex Fridman (1:29:08.780)
There's a set of things you need to be working on.
Lex Fridman (1:29:11.600)
So I actually have, like when I,
Lex Fridman (1:29:14.160)
especially when I'm training very seriously,
Ben Askren (1:29:17.100)
I'll have a specific technique that I have in mind
Lex Fridman (1:29:21.080)
and I have a sheet of paper on the side
Ben Askren (1:29:24.880)
where I literally, my head keep counting off
Lex Fridman (1:29:26.800)
how many times I put myself in that position
Lex Fridman (1:29:29.280)
and pulled off the technique.
Lex Fridman (1:29:30.320)
And that's all I care about in like training.
Lex Fridman (1:29:32.880)
So I'll just, whatever it is,
Lex Fridman (1:29:35.320)
if it's a guillotine, it's a guillotine,
Ben Askren (1:29:37.120)
arm drag, arm drag, but I wanna make sure I don't,
Lex Fridman (1:29:41.280)
I love numbers, so I'll say like,
Ben Askren (1:29:44.140)
I'll make sure I get 50 arm drags
Lex Fridman (1:29:47.320)
and I'm not getting off the mat until I do.
Lex Fridman (1:29:49.560)
And that, you know, if it takes.
Lex Fridman (1:29:50.800)
Any thrilling or live contest?
Lex Fridman (1:29:53.040)
So in this, in the thing I'm describing right now
Lex Fridman (1:29:55.320)
is the live contest.
Ben Askren (1:29:56.160)
Okay, got it.
Lex Fridman (1:29:56.980)
But drilling, obviously, drilling.
Lex Fridman (1:29:59.840)
So I feel like I can't find a drilling part,
Lex Fridman (1:30:01.880)
like it's so hard to find drilling partners, even.
Lex Fridman (1:30:04.400)
So boring.
Lex Fridman (1:30:05.540)
It's annoying to me that this is boring.
Lex Fridman (1:30:07.880)
And there's nothing more annoying to me
Lex Fridman (1:30:09.840)
than the look of boredom on another person's face
Ben Askren (1:30:12.160)
when we're drilling.
Lex Fridman (1:30:13.040)
Yeah.
Ben Askren (1:30:13.880)
It's like, don't you.
Lex Fridman (1:30:14.720)
Do you really think drilling's that beneficial to you?
Ben Askren (1:30:15.560)
Cause you said it's a job.
Lex Fridman (1:30:16.640)
Yes, yes.
Lex Fridman (1:30:17.480)
Really?
Lex Fridman (1:30:18.300)
And he thinks I'm an idiot, but yes.
Lex Fridman (1:30:19.140)
Why?
Lex Fridman (1:30:20.460)
Why am I, am I an idiot?
Lex Fridman (1:30:21.720)
Or why is this drilling beneficial?
Lex Fridman (1:30:23.520)
Well, let's go with two trick questions.
Lex Fridman (1:30:26.000)
Why is it so beneficial?
Lex Fridman (1:30:28.200)
I think for me, it's, there's a meditative aspect to it
Ben Askren (1:30:34.520)
where the more you drill,
Lex Fridman (1:30:36.880)
the more you start noticing the details.
Ben Askren (1:30:40.960)
Let me push back a little bit here.
Lex Fridman (1:30:43.720)
I'm not going to push back all the way.
Ben Askren (1:30:44.800)
Cause every time, if I was wrestling,
Lex Fridman (1:30:47.200)
I'll warm up my head, crotch, shin, leg, whatever, right?
Lex Fridman (1:30:49.680)
But even, so say like at a high level
Lex Fridman (1:30:51.760)
when I'm really wrestling, say 10 years ago,
Ben Askren (1:30:55.060)
even during that drill portion,
Lex Fridman (1:30:56.760)
if we talk about the resistance of our opponent
Ben Askren (1:30:58.480)
from zero to 100,
Lex Fridman (1:31:01.760)
it's very likely that my partner at that point,
Lex Fridman (1:31:04.000)
and this is people I'm really comfortable with,
Lex Fridman (1:31:05.480)
they're probably at least going 20 or 30, right?
Ben Askren (1:31:07.360)
They're probably giving me a certain look with the sprawl
Lex Fridman (1:31:09.800)
or, you know, I got to get through their hands.
Ben Askren (1:31:11.640)
If I don't set it up right,
Lex Fridman (1:31:13.040)
they might put their arm down, right?
Lex Fridman (1:31:14.880)
So it's like, we are drilling
Lex Fridman (1:31:16.960)
cause we're wrestling at a really low resistance level,
Lex Fridman (1:31:19.480)
but there's a little bit of sparring.
Lex Fridman (1:31:20.680)
Oh yeah, yeah.
Ben Askren (1:31:21.520)
The 20%, the 20, yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:31:22.760)
Yeah, so that's not really drilling.
Ben Askren (1:31:24.600)
Cause I think it's drilling.
Lex Fridman (1:31:25.640)
I think literally you're shooting
Lex Fridman (1:31:27.200)
and I'm just going boom, I'm like,
Lex Fridman (1:31:28.360)
show me your dummy, boom, boom, boom, boom type of thing.
Ben Askren (1:31:31.120)
No, but it's very hard to be a dummy
Lex Fridman (1:31:32.800)
that doesn't do 20%, so you're going to do 20%.
Ben Askren (1:31:35.400)
Yeah, that's so, so yes, that's 20%.
Lex Fridman (1:31:37.440)
But.
Lex Fridman (1:31:38.260)
So that's like sparring a little bit then.
Lex Fridman (1:31:40.080)
No, but they're not really resisting.
Ben Askren (1:31:41.800)
They're just giving you the right frame.
Lex Fridman (1:31:43.600)
They're giving you the right like movement
Lex Fridman (1:31:46.280)
and they're being an intelligent dummy, essentially.
Lex Fridman (1:31:49.900)
I mean, but also like the really important component
Ben Askren (1:31:53.120)
of this is you pick the techniques for which is beneficial.
Lex Fridman (1:31:56.320)
If the technique is, has dynamic elements to it,
Ben Askren (1:31:59.600)
you don't want to be doing that with,
Lex Fridman (1:32:02.160)
I'm saying like there's certain moves
Lex Fridman (1:32:05.480)
and I like those moves and I select the game base
Lex Fridman (1:32:08.140)
in those moves.
Lex Fridman (1:32:08.980)
So are you drilling to get better
Lex Fridman (1:32:10.600)
or are you drilling just to work out?
Ben Askren (1:32:12.300)
No, to get better.
Lex Fridman (1:32:13.700)
That's what I'm trying to tell you.
Ben Askren (1:32:14.600)
I believe you can become like exceptionally good
Lex Fridman (1:32:17.800)
very fast by drilling.
Lex Fridman (1:32:19.180)
But how?
Lex Fridman (1:32:22.280)
First of all, let me ask you an empirical question.
Ben Askren (1:32:24.600)
Let me, have you actually drilled 10,000 times
Lex Fridman (1:32:28.720)
a particular move?
Ben Askren (1:32:29.560)
Millions.
Lex Fridman (1:32:31.800)
You haven't drilled millions.
Ben Askren (1:32:32.640)
Hundreds of thousands, hundreds of thousands likely.
Lex Fridman (1:32:34.640)
I think you're just saying numbers.
Ben Askren (1:32:36.760)
I don't think you know what 100,000.
Lex Fridman (1:32:37.600)
The numbers are freaking astronomical.
Ben Askren (1:32:39.040)
It's way more than 10,000.
Lex Fridman (1:32:39.960)
I don't think you know what 100,000 feels like.
Ben Askren (1:32:41.920)
Dude, there was a 10 year period
Lex Fridman (1:32:42.940)
where I wrestled every single day.
Ben Askren (1:32:44.080)
That's 3,000 days, so you're telling me 10,000,
Lex Fridman (1:32:47.720)
that's only three of them a day.
Ben Askren (1:32:48.760)
I do way more than that.
Lex Fridman (1:32:50.720)
Three of them.
Ben Askren (1:32:51.560)
Probably 30 of them a day.
Lex Fridman (1:32:52.380)
That's 100,000.
Ben Askren (1:32:53.560)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:32:54.400)
Yeah, hundreds of thousands.
Ben Askren (1:32:56.080)
I doubt you did 30 a day for a particular technique.
Lex Fridman (1:32:57.560)
I did, for sure, 100%.
Ben Askren (1:33:00.480)
There's no doubt.
Lex Fridman (1:33:01.320)
All right.
Lex Fridman (1:33:02.160)
Because some days I might do 100, right?
Lex Fridman (1:33:04.120)
So 30 of 30 is not very many.
Ben Askren (1:33:05.840)
Especially if we count all reps,
Lex Fridman (1:33:07.200)
if we're counting drilling and live.
Lex Fridman (1:33:09.280)
So like our college coaches would make us just drill a lot
Lex Fridman (1:33:11.920)
and I just hated it.
Lex Fridman (1:33:12.960)
So I would rebel and just kind of give a little spar.
Lex Fridman (1:33:15.520)
You shoot a high crotch, we'll start.
Ben Askren (1:33:17.100)
Coach wants to drill a high crotch.
Lex Fridman (1:33:18.120)
Okay, we'll start.
Ben Askren (1:33:18.960)
You shoot the high crotch, that's great.
Lex Fridman (1:33:20.120)
Then I'm gonna sit the corner or I'm gonna give you my hip
Ben Askren (1:33:22.400)
or I'm gonna try something.
Lex Fridman (1:33:24.240)
So then you have to react.
Lex Fridman (1:33:25.240)
And I would argue that all skill level
Lex Fridman (1:33:29.400)
past the beginner stuff is some necessity of that, right?
Lex Fridman (1:33:34.000)
I'm gonna do this, then what are you gonna do?
Lex Fridman (1:33:36.200)
It's back and forth.
Lex Fridman (1:33:37.200)
I shoot a single leg, what are you gonna do?
Lex Fridman (1:33:38.640)
I shoot a high crotch, what are you gonna do?
Lex Fridman (1:33:39.880)
And you have to start unconsciously programming
Lex Fridman (1:33:42.380)
these things in your head.
Ben Askren (1:33:43.220)
Because if you're too conscious to think about it,
Lex Fridman (1:33:44.280)
it's gonna be too slow to actually hit it at math.
Lex Fridman (1:33:45.720)
But the drilling is the unconscious programming.
Lex Fridman (1:33:48.120)
But the simple movement, the first simple movement,
Ben Askren (1:33:51.240)
the first simple movement, that single leg
Lex Fridman (1:33:53.280)
or the high crotch or arm drag, whatever.
Ben Askren (1:33:55.920)
Like I feel like the amount you're gonna get better at it
Lex Fridman (1:34:00.000)
is so minuscule compared to the amount you're gonna gain
Ben Askren (1:34:02.620)
at doing other things around it.
Lex Fridman (1:34:05.680)
No, but that's the key word, you feel.
Ben Askren (1:34:09.120)
That's your opinion.
Lex Fridman (1:34:09.960)
If we did a study on it, then I would be proven correct.
Ben Askren (1:34:13.560)
No, perhaps.
Lex Fridman (1:34:15.240)
So first of all, your brain,
Ben Askren (1:34:16.920)
as an exceptionally creative combat athlete,
Lex Fridman (1:34:20.860)
it's clear that you don't like the boredom of drilling.
Ben Askren (1:34:24.560)
Like it's obvious that you have like,
Lex Fridman (1:34:26.920)
you're such a creative energy
Ben Askren (1:34:28.680)
that you're just not going to be somebody
Lex Fridman (1:34:31.360)
who's going to enjoy that.
Lex Fridman (1:34:32.400)
So enjoyment is probably having an active mind
Lex Fridman (1:34:35.720)
is really important.
Lex Fridman (1:34:36.840)
So the question is, do you have the kind of makeup
Lex Fridman (1:34:39.840)
that has an active mind during a drilling on a dummy?
Lex Fridman (1:34:44.680)
And I have that mind.
Lex Fridman (1:34:47.060)
Like I can.
Lex Fridman (1:34:47.900)
But do you really think, okay,
Lex Fridman (1:34:48.960)
so if you're, let's pick a technique.
Lex Fridman (1:34:51.200)
What technique do you want to drill on?
Lex Fridman (1:34:53.280)
Are we doing jiu jitsu or wrestling?
Ben Askren (1:34:54.800)
Whatever you want.
Lex Fridman (1:34:56.800)
It's hard to describe with words, but certain guard passes.
Ben Askren (1:35:00.380)
Let me think, just guard pass.
Lex Fridman (1:35:03.000)
Okay, so you have a guard pass
Lex Fridman (1:35:04.940)
and you get it to be, I'd say nine and a half out of 10,
Lex Fridman (1:35:07.160)
right, just from a technical standpoint.
Lex Fridman (1:35:09.960)
Don't you think you need some resistance to feel?
Lex Fridman (1:35:12.680)
Because essentially all benefit after that
Lex Fridman (1:35:15.180)
is going to be, what are they going to try to do to me?
Lex Fridman (1:35:18.160)
And if they shift that way,
Lex Fridman (1:35:19.360)
do I need to sink here or move there?
Lex Fridman (1:35:21.600)
So it's like, I actually think we're agreeing,
Lex Fridman (1:35:25.080)
but maybe terminology wise.
Lex Fridman (1:35:27.160)
Well, the split is the important thing.
Lex Fridman (1:35:28.920)
Like how much of each?
Lex Fridman (1:35:30.600)
So I think it is spar.
Ben Askren (1:35:32.040)
Like I think it's a very light touch spar
Lex Fridman (1:35:34.580)
is what you're talking about,
Ben Askren (1:35:36.000)
which is in my opinion, really isn't drilling.
Lex Fridman (1:35:38.440)
And it's because drilling past the basic proficiency,
Ben Askren (1:35:41.520)
I don't think brings much value.
Lex Fridman (1:35:43.120)
But that's what I'm trying to tell you is I think it does.
Ben Askren (1:35:45.840)
I think doing that same movement,
Lex Fridman (1:35:51.760)
I think you begin to learn more over time.
Ben Askren (1:35:54.880)
Like you're saying like once you get the basic proficiency,
Lex Fridman (1:35:57.700)
then there's a diminishing returns.
Ben Askren (1:36:00.000)
I don't think so.
Lex Fridman (1:36:01.520)
I don't think so.
Ben Askren (1:36:02.360)
I think everything has diminishing returns
Lex Fridman (1:36:04.720)
when you're learning a technique.
Lex Fridman (1:36:06.240)
But with something as complex as wrestling or grappling,
Lex Fridman (1:36:10.360)
if you can have way more gains over here,
Lex Fridman (1:36:13.000)
why focus on going from a 9.7 to a 9.8?
Lex Fridman (1:36:16.660)
If this other area, if you're spending so much time here
Ben Askren (1:36:19.800)
that this other area is left unexplored,
Lex Fridman (1:36:21.800)
you can make gigantic gains over there.
Ben Askren (1:36:23.600)
No, but you're gonna lose.
Lex Fridman (1:36:25.200)
I think a lot depends on your style.
Ben Askren (1:36:28.000)
I think a lot is determined by how good you are
Lex Fridman (1:36:31.520)
at one thing.
Lex Fridman (1:36:33.220)
And so if you wanna become a master of a particular thing
Lex Fridman (1:36:36.520)
and then make your whole game
Ben Askren (1:36:37.680)
where it's all pulled into that system, then I don't know.
Lex Fridman (1:36:41.080)
I think one is too small of a number.
Ben Askren (1:36:42.920)
Yeah, it's small.
Lex Fridman (1:36:44.360)
I feel like you can't be easily this, like I've.
Ben Askren (1:36:47.880)
Yeah, you wanna funnel, you wanna create funnels.
Lex Fridman (1:36:50.040)
Funnels. Funnels, right?
Ben Askren (1:36:51.280)
Where everything goes into a few positions.
Lex Fridman (1:36:52.680)
And then it's all field.
Ben Askren (1:36:53.520)
Where I feel you win 100%.
Lex Fridman (1:36:54.520)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:36:55.500)
But I feel you can get like drilling on a dummy 80%
Lex Fridman (1:37:00.500)
of the time and 20% of the time live rolling
Ben Askren (1:37:06.020)
with people worse than you.
Lex Fridman (1:37:08.540)
Like a little bit worse than you.
Ben Askren (1:37:10.420)
Or a lot worse than you.
Lex Fridman (1:37:11.260)
Yeah, so I think, I definitely think.
Lex Fridman (1:37:13.240)
So my buildup would be teach.
Lex Fridman (1:37:17.820)
So we're talking a complex technique, right?
Lex Fridman (1:37:19.460)
So by the time we're talking about,
Lex Fridman (1:37:21.380)
we'll say a late high school kid who's pretty proficient,
Ben Askren (1:37:24.820)
he's probably done the drilling part.
Lex Fridman (1:37:26.700)
So then now it's like, okay,
Ben Askren (1:37:28.460)
if I wanna get something new to you,
Lex Fridman (1:37:30.300)
I'll probably tell you,
Ben Askren (1:37:31.460)
you'll probably be able to do the basic premise
Lex Fridman (1:37:32.860)
within five to 10 minutes if they're good, right?
Ben Askren (1:37:35.380)
Do this, okay, they do it.
Lex Fridman (1:37:36.820)
Then it's like, okay, so now here from here,
Lex Fridman (1:37:38.980)
what we're gonna do, we're gonna go light sparring.
Lex Fridman (1:37:40.820)
So I know you have success.
Ben Askren (1:37:42.060)
Cause I need you to complete the task
Lex Fridman (1:37:43.500)
in order to get better at it.
Ben Askren (1:37:44.500)
That's something a lot of people in wrestling mess up,
Lex Fridman (1:37:46.540)
is they just wanna go with the toughest person.
Lex Fridman (1:37:47.940)
But if you go with the toughest person,
Lex Fridman (1:37:49.380)
you're not gonna actually execute on any skills.
Ben Askren (1:37:51.940)
You're gonna get a workout and I need you to execute
Lex Fridman (1:37:54.100)
cause I need you to get good at this.
Ben Askren (1:37:55.020)
In order to get good at it,
Lex Fridman (1:37:56.100)
you have to get all the way through the technique.
Lex Fridman (1:37:57.500)
Why do you need them to complete?
Lex Fridman (1:37:58.980)
Just so they gain confidence in the technique
Lex Fridman (1:38:00.780)
or they go through all this stuff?
Lex Fridman (1:38:01.620)
They have to feel all the way through.
Ben Askren (1:38:03.660)
Like if I said, learn a high crotch when you're drilling
Lex Fridman (1:38:07.100)
but stop halfway every time.
Lex Fridman (1:38:08.660)
But you're not actually gonna be able to do it
Lex Fridman (1:38:10.620)
cause you're gonna stop, you're not gonna feel.
Ben Askren (1:38:12.660)
So, you know, try it on someone, spar lightly, get it.
Lex Fridman (1:38:16.220)
Do it on someone who's not as good as you, get it.
Ben Askren (1:38:18.300)
Then kind of work your way up the ladder
Lex Fridman (1:38:20.220)
so you can get it on someone your own skill level
Ben Askren (1:38:21.860)
or maybe better than you, right, in a live competition.
Lex Fridman (1:38:24.940)
So it's like, I don't know,
Ben Askren (1:38:26.300)
I feel like that basic drilling,
Lex Fridman (1:38:28.140)
so a kid like Keegan who I've brought up a few times,
Ben Askren (1:38:31.260)
I feel like if there's something new,
Lex Fridman (1:38:32.580)
I could literally tell him,
Ben Askren (1:38:33.900)
this is what I want you to do
Lex Fridman (1:38:34.860)
and he's such a great feeler,
Ben Askren (1:38:36.420)
he could go drill it proficiently
Lex Fridman (1:38:37.900)
within probably a minute or two.
Lex Fridman (1:38:40.140)
But then to hit it on someone high level,
Lex Fridman (1:38:41.780)
that's gonna take quite a while longer.
Lex Fridman (1:38:44.300)
And that's a mix of drilling and sparring
Lex Fridman (1:38:48.060)
on people a little bit worse than you.
Ben Askren (1:38:49.860)
Yeah, and then equal and then better, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:38:52.860)
Okay.
Ben Askren (1:38:53.700)
Yeah, because there's this, with grappling,
Lex Fridman (1:38:56.300)
there's such like a feel component to the pressure,
Ben Askren (1:38:58.860)
the movement, all these things.
Lex Fridman (1:39:00.340)
And there's still, like I said,
Ben Askren (1:39:01.580)
there's so many things you can throw at someone
Lex Fridman (1:39:03.220)
out of one position, not just moves,
Lex Fridman (1:39:05.900)
but moves at a different level of force or whatever.
Lex Fridman (1:39:10.020)
Are you and these kids developing
Ben Askren (1:39:11.580)
like a big picture strategy of like,
Lex Fridman (1:39:14.700)
what are the main setups and take downs
Lex Fridman (1:39:18.740)
and just like a whole system?
Lex Fridman (1:39:21.700)
So I kind of sent you our technique book, right,
Lex Fridman (1:39:24.300)
how we kind of go at approach it.
Lex Fridman (1:39:26.740)
So I think in wrestling, you're going to need,
Ben Askren (1:39:31.020)
you're gonna need a handful of things
Lex Fridman (1:39:32.780)
just off the word go, right?
Ben Askren (1:39:34.940)
You're going to, so I think on our feet,
Lex Fridman (1:39:37.140)
I need to be able to take this out of the body.
Ben Askren (1:39:38.740)
I need to be able to take that out of the body.
Lex Fridman (1:39:40.820)
I need to be able to bring you underneath me.
Lex Fridman (1:39:42.820)
I need to be able to go around you, right?
Lex Fridman (1:39:44.860)
Now we can accomplish those different ways,
Lex Fridman (1:39:46.700)
but we should have all of those weapons
Lex Fridman (1:39:48.340)
if we wanna be really good some way, right?
Lex Fridman (1:39:51.100)
So if I neglect one of those,
Lex Fridman (1:39:52.380)
so if I neglect the ability to say, pull you down, right?
Ben Askren (1:39:54.460)
Front lock you.
Lex Fridman (1:39:56.340)
Now, if I have a good shot and you're smart,
Ben Askren (1:39:58.460)
you're just gonna lower your stance.
Lex Fridman (1:39:59.540)
So my shot is not gonna be as successful
Lex Fridman (1:40:01.980)
and I have the inability to pull you down, right?
Lex Fridman (1:40:03.940)
So I kind of need all of those so I can,
Ben Askren (1:40:06.140)
as they get better, I can point those things out.
Lex Fridman (1:40:09.180)
On bottom, my folks at bottom,
Ben Askren (1:40:11.140)
there's certain things like you have to be good
Lex Fridman (1:40:13.620)
at leg right defense, right?
Ben Askren (1:40:15.540)
You have to, I mean, at a high level or you're just gonna,
Lex Fridman (1:40:18.340)
when you get it in, you're just getting stuck there.
Ben Askren (1:40:20.220)
Not gonna be able to escape.
Lex Fridman (1:40:22.420)
But besides that, yeah, there's a multitude of things
Ben Askren (1:40:24.940)
that you can choose from and I'm gonna,
Lex Fridman (1:40:26.140)
depending on your body style and what you're good and bad
Ben Askren (1:40:30.340)
at, I'm gonna probably develop something a little different.
Lex Fridman (1:40:32.380)
I might give you, hey, you do the quad pod,
Ben Askren (1:40:34.440)
you'd be better at the knee slide, whatever.
Lex Fridman (1:40:38.300)
Yeah, top, kind of same thing.
Ben Askren (1:40:40.580)
I have to ask you about Khabib.
Lex Fridman (1:40:42.420)
So I remember a while ago Rogan said
Ben Askren (1:40:44.820)
that that's the perfect fight for Khabib, you are.
Lex Fridman (1:40:50.340)
So let me ask two questions.
Ben Askren (1:40:52.020)
The first, do you think you can beat him in an MMA match
Lex Fridman (1:40:55.580)
when you're at your peak?
Ben Askren (1:40:56.660)
Yeah, I don't like, yeah, I mean,
Lex Fridman (1:40:59.100)
it's one of those people where people will get really mad
Ben Askren (1:41:01.100)
at me if I say yes, but yeah, I mean, I think.
Lex Fridman (1:41:02.580)
But how would you do it?
Lex Fridman (1:41:03.600)
How would you solve that puzzle?
Lex Fridman (1:41:05.260)
Yeah, I mean, we would grapple
Lex Fridman (1:41:08.900)
and I think I would be better than him.
Lex Fridman (1:41:10.140)
But you know, sometimes I feel weird saying this,
Ben Askren (1:41:12.340)
people are like, yeah, right, you're full of shit.
Lex Fridman (1:41:14.660)
And, but that's no one out grappled him, right?
Ben Askren (1:41:18.020)
I mean, nobody did.
Lex Fridman (1:41:18.980)
And maybe I'm wrong on this,
Lex Fridman (1:41:20.700)
but if we look at the best possible candidates,
Lex Fridman (1:41:23.940)
I'm definitely one of them.
Lex Fridman (1:41:25.140)
And then obviously I have a small size advantage too.
Lex Fridman (1:41:28.560)
So in a wrestling match,
Lex Fridman (1:41:30.020)
so we can just reduce that MMA match to a wrestling match.
Lex Fridman (1:41:33.060)
What do you think is the right strategy on him?
Ben Askren (1:41:35.280)
Like, do you understand his style,
Lex Fridman (1:41:39.180)
his wrestling style, the pressure he applies?
Lex Fridman (1:41:41.060)
Do you understand how the hell he makes it happen?
Lex Fridman (1:41:44.060)
Yeah, I mean, he never, unfortunately,
Ben Askren (1:41:46.940)
fought any real, who I would say,
Lex Fridman (1:41:48.820)
really, really high level wrestlers.
Ben Askren (1:41:50.540)
I was actually really disappointed
Lex Fridman (1:41:51.420)
how bad Justin Gaethje's wrestling was,
Ben Askren (1:41:52.920)
because Justin Gaethje had some solid success,
Lex Fridman (1:41:55.700)
but his wrestling was really bad in that fight.
Lex Fridman (1:41:58.140)
Gaethje had success in the NCAA?
Lex Fridman (1:42:00.460)
Yeah, I think he was seventh place, maybe, or somewhere.
Ben Askren (1:42:03.940)
He was definitely all American.
Lex Fridman (1:42:05.580)
It was lower though.
Lex Fridman (1:42:09.020)
So yeah, I would like to see how he dealt with someone
Lex Fridman (1:42:11.220)
who was like, who I think, oh man,
Ben Askren (1:42:12.640)
this guy's a really high level wrestler.
Lex Fridman (1:42:14.460)
Because we saw, and this is early in his career,
Lex Fridman (1:42:16.580)
but Gleason Tebow did give him some issues
Lex Fridman (1:42:18.820)
earlier in his career.
Lex Fridman (1:42:21.220)
So I would like to see him in that situation
Lex Fridman (1:42:22.860)
and see how he does.
Ben Askren (1:42:23.700)
I would love to, I just love wrestling and grappling.
Lex Fridman (1:42:26.820)
Yeah, I'd love this.
Ben Askren (1:42:27.660)
Someone said, hey, Ben, Khabib wants to roll with you.
Lex Fridman (1:42:30.940)
Okay, I'm there tomorrow.
Ben Askren (1:42:32.100)
It sounds like a blast.
Lex Fridman (1:42:33.020)
Let's go.
Ben Askren (1:42:34.060)
He's probably competitive as hell.
Lex Fridman (1:42:35.980)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:42:36.820)
You're still competitive?
Lex Fridman (1:42:37.940)
I know when to be and when not to be.
Ben Askren (1:42:40.100)
Say if I'm going to high school kids,
Lex Fridman (1:42:41.260)
or I'm not going to be competitive
Ben Askren (1:42:43.140)
because then I'm just being a dick.
Lex Fridman (1:42:45.700)
How would you take him down?
Lex Fridman (1:42:48.200)
What?
Lex Fridman (1:42:49.040)
What are we talking about, real wrestling?
Lex Fridman (1:42:49.860)
Like wrestling, wrestling?
Lex Fridman (1:42:50.700)
Wrestling, wrestling.
Ben Askren (1:42:51.540)
I would probably try to take single legs and stuff.
Lex Fridman (1:42:53.740)
Single legs?
Ben Askren (1:42:54.560)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:42:55.780)
I haven't, okay.
Ben Askren (1:42:57.740)
None, none.
Lex Fridman (1:42:58.580)
No, honestly, I don't have the slightest clue.
Ben Askren (1:43:01.080)
I'd have to feel, I'd feel him out.
Lex Fridman (1:43:03.080)
But single legs is my best take on it.
Ben Askren (1:43:03.920)
People talk about his wrestling being really good.
Lex Fridman (1:43:06.900)
People that train with him.
Ben Askren (1:43:07.860)
So, okay, so I grilled someone, I will not say who,
Lex Fridman (1:43:12.100)
on the Ed Ruth thing,
Ben Askren (1:43:13.180)
because Ed Ruth is very elite at folk style wrestling.
Lex Fridman (1:43:15.580)
He never became that great at fighting, unfortunately.
Lex Fridman (1:43:17.740)
Wait, Ed Ruth wrestled Khabib?
Lex Fridman (1:43:19.780)
They were on the same team for a while, yeah.
Ben Askren (1:43:20.980)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:43:21.820)
And there was rumors that Khabib beat him up.
Lex Fridman (1:43:23.860)
And I said, I sure can't believe that.
Lex Fridman (1:43:27.100)
And I've heard that that was,
Ben Askren (1:43:29.500)
if they were just straight wrestling,
Lex Fridman (1:43:30.820)
Ed would get slightly the better of it.
Ben Askren (1:43:33.060)
Well, Ed Ruth is like one of the greats.
Lex Fridman (1:43:35.180)
He's great.
Ben Askren (1:43:36.020)
He's really good.
Lex Fridman (1:43:36.840)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:43:37.840)
So that was what I heard.
Lex Fridman (1:43:39.460)
But in an MMA setting,
Ben Askren (1:43:41.320)
because of all the tools that Khabib would get him.
Lex Fridman (1:43:45.540)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (1:43:47.620)
But I agree.
Lex Fridman (1:43:48.460)
I agree with Rogan on this one.
Ben Askren (1:43:49.740)
That would have been good to see.
Lex Fridman (1:43:50.740)
Yeah, I'm fine.
Lex Fridman (1:43:51.580)
So yeah, if Khabib wants to work out, I'd love it.
Lex Fridman (1:43:54.220)
I love wrestling and grappling.
Ben Askren (1:43:56.220)
I don't do much Jiu Jitsu
Lex Fridman (1:43:57.060)
because I just don't have time for it anymore.
Ben Askren (1:43:58.620)
I'm at the Wrestling Academy like every single day.
Lex Fridman (1:44:01.260)
But yeah, I loved Jiu Jitsu while I did it.
Lex Fridman (1:44:03.540)
And if I didn't have Wrestling Academies,
Lex Fridman (1:44:05.500)
I probably would still be doing Jiu Jitsu.
Ben Askren (1:44:06.980)
Yeah, you do well in Jiu Jitsu as well.
Lex Fridman (1:44:09.060)
But let me ask you a ridiculous question.
Lex Fridman (1:44:12.180)
Who's the greatest of all time, freestyle or folk style?
Lex Fridman (1:44:15.060)
Oh, wrestling.
Ben Askren (1:44:15.900)
Wrestling.
Lex Fridman (1:44:16.740)
Hmm.
Ben Askren (1:44:17.580)
Well, I will say my knowledge past like the year 2000
Lex Fridman (1:44:22.140)
is really not that great.
Ben Askren (1:44:25.260)
Because you can't be.
Lex Fridman (1:44:26.100)
In which direction?
Lex Fridman (1:44:26.920)
Sorry, after 2000?
Lex Fridman (1:44:27.760)
No, no, before.
Lex Fridman (1:44:28.600)
Because you can't find any film or anything, you know?
Lex Fridman (1:44:30.100)
And so you hear of all these.
Lex Fridman (1:44:31.300)
So you need evidence?
Lex Fridman (1:44:32.300)
You need direct evidence?
Ben Askren (1:44:33.380)
I want to be able to watch them and see them
Lex Fridman (1:44:35.020)
and feel the times and feel their opponents
Lex Fridman (1:44:36.740)
and all those things to really like,
Lex Fridman (1:44:38.980)
I hate giving bad answers, you know?
Lex Fridman (1:44:40.820)
So there's just not enough footage of any of those people.
Lex Fridman (1:44:44.820)
You know, we go back to someone like Alexander Medved.
Ben Askren (1:44:47.740)
Like, you can't find footage.
Lex Fridman (1:44:48.980)
You can't find anything on him, you know?
Lex Fridman (1:44:50.340)
It's like, who is the wrestler?
Lex Fridman (1:44:52.140)
I'm not sure.
Lex Fridman (1:44:53.220)
So post 2000, I think, and obviously just freestyle.
Lex Fridman (1:44:57.840)
So.
Lex Fridman (1:45:00.460)
Americans, Russians?
Lex Fridman (1:45:01.300)
Oh, it's just that T.F. has probably the best argument
Ben Askren (1:45:04.140)
post 2000.
Lex Fridman (1:45:04.980)
Yeah, the Russian tank, that guy is, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:45:08.940)
So who's better, Snyder or Sajilov?
Lex Fridman (1:45:11.380)
So Sajilov just won at the Olympics.
Ben Askren (1:45:12.780)
Now, I understand this.
Lex Fridman (1:45:13.620)
I don't understand how that works,
Lex Fridman (1:45:14.660)
but it's pretty close, right?
Lex Fridman (1:45:16.940)
Not really.
Ben Askren (1:45:17.940)
Not that match, but in general, the matchup.
Lex Fridman (1:45:19.860)
So, well, so Kyle won the first one in 17.
Ben Askren (1:45:22.820)
Sajilov pinned him the following year.
Lex Fridman (1:45:24.820)
But then Kyle lost and took bronze in 19.
Lex Fridman (1:45:28.520)
And then just lost.
Lex Fridman (1:45:30.500)
I don't want to say fairly decisively,
Lex Fridman (1:45:32.120)
but it was six to three and it was a late take down.
Lex Fridman (1:45:35.180)
He kind of gave it up and maybe if it was really competitive,
Ben Askren (1:45:38.200)
maybe he wouldn't have.
Lex Fridman (1:45:40.980)
They're gonna wrestle again in like two weeks here.
Lex Fridman (1:45:43.220)
So that, you know, yeah, I mean,
Lex Fridman (1:45:45.780)
you have to say Sajilov at this point.
Ben Askren (1:45:47.140)
There's nothing else to say
Lex Fridman (1:45:48.460)
unless Kyle proves us otherwise.
Ben Askren (1:45:50.780)
Yeah, not enough people talk about Sajilov.
Lex Fridman (1:45:53.700)
Okay, well, you think that guy should go to MMA?
Lex Fridman (1:45:57.540)
You think Kyle should go to MMA?
Lex Fridman (1:45:59.100)
Some of these guys.
Ben Askren (1:45:59.940)
Yeah, they're making enough money in wrestling
Lex Fridman (1:46:01.620)
where they don't really feel the need to.
Ben Askren (1:46:03.160)
It's great. It's terrifying though.
Lex Fridman (1:46:04.300)
It's a heavyweight, Sajilov would probably,
Ben Askren (1:46:06.900)
it's like Khabib, but heavyweight.
Lex Fridman (1:46:09.300)
Well, I don't know if you remember,
Lex Fridman (1:46:10.140)
do you remember Bilal Makov?
Lex Fridman (1:46:12.400)
So Bilal Makov actually was the Russian representative
Ben Askren (1:46:14.920)
in both styles in 2016, Greco and freestyle.
Lex Fridman (1:46:18.880)
And he was, to my knowledge,
Ben Askren (1:46:20.900)
the only person the UFC has ever signed
Lex Fridman (1:46:22.680)
that was zero and zero, in modern era,
Ben Askren (1:46:24.700)
signed that was zero and zero.
Lex Fridman (1:46:25.920)
And then he actually never ended up fighting.
Lex Fridman (1:46:28.280)
But weird, right?
Lex Fridman (1:46:29.680)
So yeah. No motivation.
Ben Askren (1:46:31.060)
I don't know what the story is.
Lex Fridman (1:46:32.780)
Cause sometimes out of Russia,
Ben Askren (1:46:34.060)
I mean, maybe you have better sources than I do.
Lex Fridman (1:46:35.940)
Sometimes it feels like dudes just disappear.
Ben Askren (1:46:37.840)
Like they're a world champ or a little big champ
Lex Fridman (1:46:39.660)
and then all of a sudden you're like, wait, where'd he go?
Ben Askren (1:46:42.740)
You talked shit about Russia earlier in the conversation.
Lex Fridman (1:46:45.300)
So. Oh, what'd I say?
Ben Askren (1:46:46.440)
I forgot, but I think.
Lex Fridman (1:46:48.380)
Steroids.
Ben Askren (1:46:49.220)
I think somebody's gonna show up to your door.
Lex Fridman (1:46:50.780)
I'm worried.
Ben Askren (1:46:51.600)
I honestly, I've said enough bad things
Lex Fridman (1:46:53.060)
where I would be a kind of looking over my shoulder
Ben Askren (1:46:56.060)
if I wanted to do something.
Lex Fridman (1:46:57.060)
I, for one, love the Russians.
Lex Fridman (1:47:01.260)
What about Icarus?
Lex Fridman (1:47:02.980)
How does that make you feel?
Lex Fridman (1:47:03.820)
What about it?
Lex Fridman (1:47:04.660)
It's fake news.
Lex Fridman (1:47:05.480)
Oh, really?
Lex Fridman (1:47:06.320)
I'm just kidding.
Lex Fridman (1:47:07.160)
It's propaganda?
Lex Fridman (1:47:07.980)
Maybe it is.
Ben Askren (1:47:08.820)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (1:47:09.660)
I don't know what it is anymore.
Ben Askren (1:47:10.480)
Maybe it is.
Lex Fridman (1:47:11.320)
Yeah.
Ben Askren (1:47:12.160)
You know, it's troublesome, man.
Lex Fridman (1:47:13.060)
I hate cheating in all of its forms.
Ben Askren (1:47:16.460)
Any other like recaps from the Olympics of 2020 Tokyo
Lex Fridman (1:47:20.220)
that stood out to you?
Lex Fridman (1:47:21.140)
Gable Stephenson?
Lex Fridman (1:47:21.960)
Like anything like that?
Ben Askren (1:47:22.800)
Gable's great.
Lex Fridman (1:47:23.620)
Yeah.
Ben Askren (1:47:24.460)
No, I think America's coming to the point
Lex Fridman (1:47:26.780)
where we're gonna compete with Russia
Ben Askren (1:47:28.020)
every single year in wrestling,
Lex Fridman (1:47:29.020)
which obviously, you know,
Ben Askren (1:47:32.500)
long, long time ago, many, many years ago we were great.
Lex Fridman (1:47:36.260)
And then kind of after that Soviet Union period,
Ben Askren (1:47:39.540)
I think there was a lot of poverty in that area.
Lex Fridman (1:47:41.820)
And that kind of led the wrestling team
Ben Askren (1:47:43.540)
going down a little bit.
Lex Fridman (1:47:44.820)
And then obviously a lot of those regions,
Ben Askren (1:47:47.620)
the way they found oil and gas in the Caspian Sea, I believe.
Lex Fridman (1:47:51.060)
And they've been really kind of on the upswing
Ben Askren (1:47:54.020)
for the last 20 years.
Lex Fridman (1:47:54.860)
And now America really, since 2012,
Ben Askren (1:47:58.020)
has been on the upswing in wrestling.
Lex Fridman (1:47:59.340)
And we're kind of really competing with them.
Lex Fridman (1:48:02.780)
And they're not sending a couple of their best guys.
Lex Fridman (1:48:04.900)
So for those who don't know,
Ben Askren (1:48:06.860)
the Olympics moved back a year.
Lex Fridman (1:48:08.580)
So they are hosting the 2021 World Championships,
Ben Askren (1:48:11.300)
despite the fact that we just had the Olympics
Lex Fridman (1:48:12.780)
two months ago.
Lex Fridman (1:48:13.620)
So it's happening next week in Oslo, Norway.
Lex Fridman (1:48:15.620)
So like Russia's not sending their number one at 57
Lex Fridman (1:48:18.300)
and their number one at 65.
Lex Fridman (1:48:19.700)
So it's like, America's probably gonna win, I think.
Ben Askren (1:48:23.540)
I don't wanna guarantee anything,
Lex Fridman (1:48:24.980)
but there's a really good chance of it.
Lex Fridman (1:48:26.300)
Is Dave Taylor, all of those guys, competing?
Lex Fridman (1:48:28.980)
America gave any of the Olympians that medaled
Ben Askren (1:48:31.620)
the opportunity to not even have to wrestle off.
Lex Fridman (1:48:33.460)
They just got to keep the spot
Ben Askren (1:48:34.460)
since it was two months later if they medaled.
Lex Fridman (1:48:36.660)
So the only one who's not is Gable.
Ben Askren (1:48:38.860)
Gable's moving on.
Lex Fridman (1:48:40.020)
We have a pretty good guy behind him.
Ben Askren (1:48:41.740)
Nick Wisniewski is a world medalist.
Lex Fridman (1:48:44.180)
But then he's, so Burrell's filled in the 79 spot.
Ben Askren (1:48:47.180)
Jayden Cox filled in the 92 spot,
Lex Fridman (1:48:49.140)
who's a world champion also.
Lex Fridman (1:48:50.780)
So we have a pretty good squad.
Lex Fridman (1:48:52.100)
A hell of a team. Pretty good squad, yeah.
Ben Askren (1:48:54.340)
Pretty good squad. Pretty happy.
Lex Fridman (1:48:56.420)
So given your run in Bellator in one championship,
Ben Askren (1:48:59.380)
that was like one of the most dominant runs in MMA.
Lex Fridman (1:49:03.060)
What would you say was like key to your dominance
Lex Fridman (1:49:06.300)
in that long undefeated streak?
Lex Fridman (1:49:08.860)
Huh, probably consistency would be one.
Ben Askren (1:49:12.180)
The fact that I just, I lived and trained the same way
Lex Fridman (1:49:16.580)
no matter where my life was,
Ben Askren (1:49:17.900)
whereas a lot of fighters,
Lex Fridman (1:49:18.900)
once they start making money for the first time,
Ben Askren (1:49:20.900)
they have all these obligations and they travel
Lex Fridman (1:49:22.860)
and they really enjoy making money.
Lex Fridman (1:49:24.740)
And that's kind of why some of them fall off.
Lex Fridman (1:49:27.940)
So you had like the same process,
Ben Askren (1:49:29.340)
like the same camp. Yeah, I stayed at my house.
Lex Fridman (1:49:31.380)
I didn't vacation, yeah, everything.
Ben Askren (1:49:33.620)
Just, you know, and so that was a big part of it.
Lex Fridman (1:49:37.500)
Obviously the style thing is like, no one could,
Ben Askren (1:49:40.220)
there was only a few people who could stop my style.
Lex Fridman (1:49:44.940)
And I think I continue to get better
Ben Askren (1:49:46.780)
as a mixed martial artist.
Lex Fridman (1:49:48.060)
And I wasn't as innovative in mixed martial arts,
Lex Fridman (1:49:53.260)
but there was a handful of things that I innovated,
Lex Fridman (1:49:56.100)
you know, specifically in the top position
Ben Askren (1:49:58.260)
where I spent a lot of time where it was just like,
Lex Fridman (1:50:00.860)
there was just, once I got on top of you,
Ben Askren (1:50:02.780)
it was like in a spider web
Lex Fridman (1:50:03.860)
and there was just kind of no way out.
Ben Askren (1:50:05.700)
You know, you never felt the certain things I was doing.
Lex Fridman (1:50:08.500)
And so people just, they gave up eventually.
Lex Fridman (1:50:11.900)
How's the level of wrestling in MMA would you say?
Lex Fridman (1:50:14.820)
So I saw somewhere like champions,
Ben Askren (1:50:19.540)
the most popular martial art for current UFC champions
Lex Fridman (1:50:22.780)
are all wrestling.
Lex Fridman (1:50:24.380)
So we just lost a bunch of the belts.
Lex Fridman (1:50:27.140)
Wrestling is a sport, right?
Lex Fridman (1:50:29.380)
But yeah, at one point we had,
Lex Fridman (1:50:30.540)
I think it was eight of nine maybe
Ben Askren (1:50:32.740)
or something to that effect.
Lex Fridman (1:50:34.660)
And I think it's not just wrestling,
Ben Askren (1:50:36.860)
not just the actual martial art of wrestling
Lex Fridman (1:50:39.700)
that contributes to our success in mixed martial arts,
Lex Fridman (1:50:44.180)
but other things like the way we're systemized.
Lex Fridman (1:50:46.580)
So most kids who have all this have went through
Ben Askren (1:50:49.100)
the high school program and the college program
Lex Fridman (1:50:50.700)
and they know how to show up on time
Lex Fridman (1:50:51.900)
and they know how to work hard.
Lex Fridman (1:50:53.200)
So when they go to ATT or AKA or wherever,
Ben Askren (1:50:56.900)
they know how to show up on time
Lex Fridman (1:50:58.060)
and they know how to work hard
Lex Fridman (1:50:58.900)
and that's gonna get you a really long way.
Lex Fridman (1:51:00.720)
Just those two things, right?
Ben Askren (1:51:01.940)
Not even the techniques, it's just the discipline.
Lex Fridman (1:51:03.900)
Those things.
Ben Askren (1:51:04.740)
Then I think you throw on top of that the fact
Lex Fridman (1:51:06.100)
that most of us have competed 1500 to 2000 times,
Ben Askren (1:51:10.140)
probably by the time we get to 20 something,
Lex Fridman (1:51:12.300)
like that's a huge advantage too.
Ben Askren (1:51:13.500)
Most of these other people from other disciplines
Lex Fridman (1:51:15.460)
maybe have competed 100, if that, right?
Lex Fridman (1:51:18.220)
So we have this competitive process down
Lex Fridman (1:51:20.300)
really, really, really, really well.
Ben Askren (1:51:23.140)
Plus the weight cut.
Lex Fridman (1:51:24.100)
The weight cut.
Ben Askren (1:51:24.940)
There's all these things that factor into it.
Lex Fridman (1:51:27.380)
I think the fact that we're really open minded,
Ben Askren (1:51:29.400)
I think if you would, I don't wanna pick on jiu jitsu again,
Lex Fridman (1:51:32.300)
but how many jiu jitsu guys have became
Ben Askren (1:51:35.000)
highly proficient in wrestling
Lex Fridman (1:51:36.440)
versus how many wrestling guys
Lex Fridman (1:51:37.740)
have became highly proficient in jiu jitsu?
Lex Fridman (1:51:39.900)
I think that number swings one way
Lex Fridman (1:51:41.980)
and not that much the other way, you know?
Lex Fridman (1:51:44.540)
So we're open to adapting and learning
Lex Fridman (1:51:48.260)
and for some reason, like jiu jitsu people,
Lex Fridman (1:51:52.020)
how many of them have got high level wrestling?
Ben Askren (1:51:54.020)
Or even mediocre wrestling, the number's really small.
Lex Fridman (1:51:57.460)
They refuse to, it's really frustrating.
Lex Fridman (1:52:00.020)
Why won't they do this?
Lex Fridman (1:52:01.020)
This is obviously a part of it.
Ben Askren (1:52:03.140)
I don't wanna pick on specific guys,
Lex Fridman (1:52:04.580)
but there's certain guys in the history of MMA
Ben Askren (1:52:06.180)
where you're like, listen, man.
Lex Fridman (1:52:08.620)
I mean, Damian Maia, who was my last fight,
Ben Askren (1:52:10.740)
is a great example of somebody who actually
Lex Fridman (1:52:12.380)
did get proficient in wrestling, right?
Lex Fridman (1:52:15.040)
But there's some of these jiu jitsu guys who's like,
Lex Fridman (1:52:16.720)
if you just got on top, you would submit him.
Lex Fridman (1:52:18.620)
Why can't you learn a freaking takedown?
Lex Fridman (1:52:20.460)
Like, holy moly, just learn how to take someone down.
Ben Askren (1:52:23.700)
Once you get them down, they will not get up
Lex Fridman (1:52:26.040)
and you win the fight.
Lex Fridman (1:52:26.940)
Like, it's so easy, you know?
Lex Fridman (1:52:28.380)
But they refuse.
Lex Fridman (1:52:29.300)
How complicated is that journey?
Lex Fridman (1:52:30.520)
So like Donaher that you mentioned, Craig Jones,
Ben Askren (1:52:33.460)
they're big on wrestling as part of jiu jitsu now.
Lex Fridman (1:52:36.820)
Like wrestling, not just on the feet,
Lex Fridman (1:52:38.840)
but wrestling from the bottom coming up
Lex Fridman (1:52:41.220)
and all that kind of stuff.
Lex Fridman (1:52:42.940)
So how difficult is that whole skill set, would you say,
Lex Fridman (1:52:46.420)
for a jiu jitsu person to learn?
Ben Askren (1:52:48.680)
Not that hard.
Lex Fridman (1:52:49.520)
If they really put their mind to it.
Ben Askren (1:52:50.780)
Cause they already like, when you grapple,
Lex Fridman (1:52:52.660)
and this is any grappling art,
Ben Askren (1:52:54.140)
like there's a certain part of it that you kind of get
Lex Fridman (1:52:56.820)
and it can, it might not be the exact same thing,
Lex Fridman (1:52:59.340)
but you understand how your body moves
Lex Fridman (1:53:00.740)
and how to feel certain pressures
Lex Fridman (1:53:02.100)
and you can adapt yourself pretty quickly, you know?
Lex Fridman (1:53:04.980)
So I don't think, I think there's a certain level
Ben Askren (1:53:07.420)
of stubbornness where they didn't want to,
Lex Fridman (1:53:09.620)
certain people didn't want to do it for whatever reason.
Ben Askren (1:53:12.700)
I think a lot of times in MMA, it's the I'm so macho,
Lex Fridman (1:53:16.140)
I can stand and bang thing, you know,
Ben Askren (1:53:17.780)
where they want to show how macho they are.
Lex Fridman (1:53:21.060)
But yeah, that was a frustrating one that they,
Ben Askren (1:53:24.060)
there's a lot of wrestlers who became highly proficient
Lex Fridman (1:53:26.220)
in jiu jitsu and really adapted
Lex Fridman (1:53:28.500)
and it doesn't go the other way.
Lex Fridman (1:53:29.620)
And then I guess the other thing there too is
Lex Fridman (1:53:33.280)
they can both steal from each other, right?
Lex Fridman (1:53:35.140)
As any martial art can steal from another.
Lex Fridman (1:53:38.780)
And like, I feel like jiu jitsu
Lex Fridman (1:53:40.460)
didn't do enough stealing from wrestling.
Ben Askren (1:53:42.260)
Like they should have looked at all the wrestling possible
Lex Fridman (1:53:44.020)
and said, well, why don't we steal that and that and that?
Ben Askren (1:53:47.460)
You know, and like, hey, let's take that over.
Lex Fridman (1:53:48.980)
And maybe we'd make a little tweak because it's different,
Lex Fridman (1:53:52.280)
but there's something we can definitely use there.
Lex Fridman (1:53:53.900)
So like in wrestling, for example,
Lex Fridman (1:53:57.220)
you know there's a one arm guillotine in jiu jitsu, right?
Lex Fridman (1:53:59.660)
Okay, so there's a move called, well, it's got a hundred,
Ben Askren (1:54:01.700)
I mean, it's like the oldest move in wrestling
Lex Fridman (1:54:03.060)
because it's what they did, the cows,
Ben Askren (1:54:04.120)
where they go around the chin and they throw them
Lex Fridman (1:54:05.300)
on the back, how do we call that one?
Ben Askren (1:54:07.420)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (1:54:08.260)
Okay, sorry, did you just ask me what I call that one?
Ben Askren (1:54:11.220)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:54:12.060)
Would you take a cow and grab it by the neck,
Lex Fridman (1:54:14.780)
throw it to the side?
Lex Fridman (1:54:15.620)
No, but in wrestling, in wrestling.
Ben Askren (1:54:17.340)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (1:54:18.380)
Okay, we call it that.
Lex Fridman (1:54:19.220)
Are you putting it under?
Lex Fridman (1:54:20.260)
Yeah, so you can grab their chin
Lex Fridman (1:54:21.660)
and then you go under their arm
Lex Fridman (1:54:22.820)
and then throw them on their back.
Ben Askren (1:54:23.660)
Oh, okay, gotcha, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:54:24.700)
Yeah, so we call that the honey badger,
Lex Fridman (1:54:26.460)
but it's got different names,
Lex Fridman (1:54:28.380)
wherever you go, it's got different names.
Lex Fridman (1:54:30.380)
So I would always, I would say like pre Jiu Jitsu,
Lex Fridman (1:54:34.720)
I was average at it, like I could do it,
Lex Fridman (1:54:37.360)
but against good people, you'd never get it for,
Lex Fridman (1:54:39.760)
because they would get the back of their head up
Lex Fridman (1:54:42.520)
and they were too strong where you couldn't collapse them
Lex Fridman (1:54:44.140)
by going over their neck, right?
Ben Askren (1:54:45.200)
Because the forces weren't right.
Lex Fridman (1:54:46.680)
So then in Jiu Jitsu, you learn the one arm gi team
Ben Askren (1:54:48.680)
where you grab their chin and this is more of running along
Lex Fridman (1:54:51.280)
the side of their head and then you go here
Lex Fridman (1:54:53.620)
and you choke them, right?
Lex Fridman (1:54:55.760)
Much more efficient way to move their head
Ben Askren (1:54:58.060)
because the fulcrum is way down here
Lex Fridman (1:55:00.240)
and their head can move into that, right?
Lex Fridman (1:55:02.960)
So once I learned that in Jiu Jitsu, I'm like, wait,
Lex Fridman (1:55:06.320)
I can do this in wrestling.
Lex Fridman (1:55:07.880)
So now once I learn how to grab their chin the right way
Lex Fridman (1:55:10.100)
and I do the honey badger, no one ever gets out.
Ben Askren (1:55:12.560)
I just had to steal that Jiu Jitsu,
Lex Fridman (1:55:14.720)
put it in wrestling and boom, there we go.
Lex Fridman (1:55:16.520)
But very few people steal any direction,
Lex Fridman (1:55:18.740)
that takes creativity.
Lex Fridman (1:55:19.880)
Really?
Lex Fridman (1:55:20.720)
And open mindedness.
Ben Askren (1:55:21.540)
It's so easy because it's already done,
Lex Fridman (1:55:22.380)
you just gotta steal it.
Ben Askren (1:55:23.720)
I mean, same with Judo, if you're a gi Jiu Jitsu person,
Lex Fridman (1:55:27.160)
there's so much stuff in Judo that's ripe for the stealing
Ben Askren (1:55:32.680)
because Judo is much more emphasizes explosive moves
Lex Fridman (1:55:39.240)
on the transition, which is something Jiu Jitsu does not do.
Ben Askren (1:55:42.240)
Because you have some.
Lex Fridman (1:55:43.080)
You mean from the take down to.
Ben Askren (1:55:44.120)
From the take down, but also just in general,
Lex Fridman (1:55:45.880)
just in the transition, the concept of transition,
Ben Askren (1:55:49.040)
the Jiu Jitsu is very much about we're in this position,
Lex Fridman (1:55:53.680)
then we're in this position, then we're in this position.
Ben Askren (1:55:56.680)
The Judo is much more in when there's chaos of any kind.
Lex Fridman (1:56:02.160)
That's when you need to strike.
Lex Fridman (1:56:04.440)
And to learn that, I mean, that's why people like
Lex Fridman (1:56:06.840)
Travis Stevens and Judoka, when they go to Jiu Jitsu,
Ben Askren (1:56:09.680)
they can dominate.
Lex Fridman (1:56:10.520)
But Jiu Jitsu people should steal that.
Ben Askren (1:56:13.680)
They're too stubborn.
Lex Fridman (1:56:14.880)
Yeah, but so is every, wrestlers are stubborn too.
Ben Askren (1:56:17.480)
No way, there would never be any stubborn wrestlers.
Lex Fridman (1:56:21.160)
Well, I mean, I was surprised, all these coaches,
Ben Askren (1:56:23.980)
John Smith, Dan Gabel, they don't really have interest
Lex Fridman (1:56:27.760)
in MMA or Jiu Jitsu and so on.
Lex Fridman (1:56:31.400)
But you would think somebody like a John Smith
Lex Fridman (1:56:33.120)
would like put on a white belt and roll around.
Ben Askren (1:56:36.720)
Yeah, I think he's just too focused on, you know.
Lex Fridman (1:56:39.400)
Well, he's a coach.
Ben Askren (1:56:40.240)
Well, he's a coach and what he's doing.
Lex Fridman (1:56:41.720)
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think if you take him when he's younger,
Ben Askren (1:56:45.240)
he would have a lot of fun.
Lex Fridman (1:56:46.080)
We actually have a really good wrestler
Ben Askren (1:56:47.140)
making his MMA debut tomorrow.
Lex Fridman (1:56:48.920)
I don't know if you, Bo Nickel,
Ben Askren (1:56:49.920)
I'm sure you've heard of him, very high level.
Lex Fridman (1:56:51.900)
I think he's gonna have a lot of success.
Ben Askren (1:56:54.520)
I mean, some people might say that like Jiu Jitsu
Lex Fridman (1:56:57.520)
makes you a little comfortable being in your back
Lex Fridman (1:57:01.440)
and for a wrestler, that could be like really bad.
Lex Fridman (1:57:03.920)
I hate that take.
Ben Askren (1:57:05.080)
Yeah, but that's the Dan Gabel take.
Lex Fridman (1:57:07.320)
It's so stupid, it's so stupid.
Ben Askren (1:57:09.800)
For God's sakes, we know the fucking rules.
Lex Fridman (1:57:12.160)
Just, in wrestling, you don't go to your back.
Ben Askren (1:57:13.800)
In Jiu Jitsu, you can, it's like, whatever.
Lex Fridman (1:57:16.240)
Yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:57:17.080)
But like, so Jiu Jitsu, for example,
Lex Fridman (1:57:19.760)
so I coached, when I was at Rufus, I coached the wrestling
Ben Askren (1:57:22.320)
for a long, I don't know, three, four, five years.
Lex Fridman (1:57:25.840)
So I've been taking a Jiu Jitsu guy
Lex Fridman (1:57:28.080)
and teaching them a wrestling technique
Lex Fridman (1:57:29.820)
where you needed to use your feet.
Ben Askren (1:57:33.360)
To teach a Jiu Jitsu guy, so easy, so simple,
Lex Fridman (1:57:35.480)
because they already understand the concept,
Lex Fridman (1:57:37.120)
butterfly guard, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, right?
Lex Fridman (1:57:39.440)
To take a wrestler who's never done any of it
Lex Fridman (1:57:42.540)
and teach him how to use his feet,
Lex Fridman (1:57:43.880)
oh my God, it's such a beast, it's so hard,
Ben Askren (1:57:46.280)
because that's not a weapon they're thinking about using.
Lex Fridman (1:57:49.060)
So it's like, we understand the rules.
Ben Askren (1:57:51.600)
It's like freestyle folks are wrestling.
Lex Fridman (1:57:52.960)
Freestyle, if I'm on the mat, I can lock my hands.
Ben Askren (1:57:55.140)
You don't see people locking their hands
Lex Fridman (1:57:56.400)
all the time in folk style just because they did freestyle.
Ben Askren (1:57:58.160)
It's like, they get it.
Lex Fridman (1:57:59.400)
There's a rule, they understand it.
Lex Fridman (1:58:00.800)
So the notion that somehow you come from on your back.
Lex Fridman (1:58:04.040)
But pinning, that's like a, it has a special meaning.
Ben Askren (1:58:08.660)
Yeah, but I actually think, so Jiu Jitsu,
Lex Fridman (1:58:11.280)
you don't actually wanna be flat, flat very often, right?
Ben Askren (1:58:16.280)
You don't wanna be.
Lex Fridman (1:58:17.760)
I always wondered this,
Ben Askren (1:58:18.760)
because I did a couple of catch wrestling tournaments,
Lex Fridman (1:58:21.920)
and I did, I would put myself in butterfly guard,
Lex Fridman (1:58:26.240)
and I wasn't going against good people,
Lex Fridman (1:58:28.440)
so which is why I was doing all these things.
Lex Fridman (1:58:30.360)
But I wondered if you could create a system of wrestling
Lex Fridman (1:58:34.400)
where you're butterfly guard.
Lex Fridman (1:58:37.180)
So I think that there's a few places where I use it.
Lex Fridman (1:58:40.220)
But so specifically the Elevator Series,
Ben Askren (1:58:41.880)
which my main series up bottom,
Lex Fridman (1:58:43.040)
it is, it's not butterfly guard.
Ben Askren (1:58:45.380)
It's a butterfly guard grip with your foot.
Lex Fridman (1:58:47.240)
So I boom, I go here, I catch your leg with my foot,
Lex Fridman (1:58:50.820)
boom, and I elevate you over, right?
Lex Fridman (1:58:53.000)
And then also sometimes,
Ben Askren (1:58:56.320)
I think Keegan does this too from watching me,
Lex Fridman (1:58:57.720)
but if I get double leg,
Ben Askren (1:58:59.400)
sometimes if I'm accepting, so freestyle,
Lex Fridman (1:59:02.600)
obviously you're gonna give him points,
Ben Askren (1:59:03.440)
you're gonna focus on accepting that you've already got me,
Lex Fridman (1:59:05.600)
and as I go down, I'm just gonna butterfly guard you up,
Lex Fridman (1:59:09.520)
and then I'm gonna try to flip my hip back to the mat,
Lex Fridman (1:59:11.620)
and end up in a wizard position.
Ben Askren (1:59:13.820)
I've used that quite a few times,
Lex Fridman (1:59:15.360)
where it's kind of like a bailout mechanism
Ben Askren (1:59:17.720)
that gets me back to maybe not a great position,
Lex Fridman (1:59:20.520)
but obviously much better than being taken down.
Ben Askren (1:59:23.520)
Beautiful. Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:59:24.860)
Let me ask you quickly about crypto,
Ben Askren (1:59:26.920)
because you're also, you have a show.
Lex Fridman (1:59:30.320)
You have a lot of interest in cryptocurrency.
Lex Fridman (1:59:33.760)
Why are you interested in cryptocurrency?
Lex Fridman (1:59:36.400)
Is it just a financial investment,
Lex Fridman (1:59:38.060)
or is there a philosophy that attracts you to it?
Lex Fridman (1:59:40.880)
So I, my friend told me about it in 2017.
Ben Askren (1:59:44.240)
I was actually, I went to, I was,
Lex Fridman (1:59:46.240)
my friend met me in Shanghai.
Ben Askren (1:59:47.560)
I fought in one championship, and he told me,
Lex Fridman (1:59:50.800)
and the second he told me, I'm like, oh, I'm so in,
Ben Askren (1:59:54.040)
because I had read Ron Paul and the Fed.
Lex Fridman (1:59:56.520)
I had read, I kind of had an understanding
Lex Fridman (1:59:58.720)
how the Fed is unfair,
Lex Fridman (20:01.020)
I can bring, because of where I'm at right now in my life,
Ben Askren (20:03.700)
I can bring a lot of attention to wrestling.
Lex Fridman (20:05.180)
I can help you guys raise a bunch of money
Ben Askren (20:06.860)
for Beat the Streets.
Lex Fridman (20:08.260)
My goal is I think I thought I could get one take down
Ben Askren (20:10.980)
or turn on him was kind of my goal for the match.
Lex Fridman (20:13.860)
I didn't get there.
Ben Askren (20:15.500)
He went kind of hard.
Lex Fridman (20:16.620)
He went hard?
Ben Askren (20:17.460)
Yeah, that asshole didn't give me a point.
Lex Fridman (20:18.660)
Yeah, that.
Ben Askren (20:20.420)
I said, this is bullshit, Jordan.
Lex Fridman (20:21.700)
I told him during the match, like, this is bullshit.
Ben Askren (20:23.700)
You're fucking going too hard right now.
Lex Fridman (20:25.460)
I'm not a wrestler.
Ben Askren (20:26.300)
I'm not a wrestler anymore.
Lex Fridman (20:27.140)
I'm a fighter.
Ben Askren (20:27.980)
I'm coming in here.
Lex Fridman (20:28.820)
So yeah, so I had a really good idea.
Ben Askren (20:30.180)
I mean, we wrestled together.
Lex Fridman (20:31.460)
I think he'll probably get mad
Ben Askren (20:33.380)
because I think in the live go,
Lex Fridman (20:35.500)
we did like the 12 or 15 minutes.
Ben Askren (20:36.940)
I think I actually scored a take down in that, I believe.
Lex Fridman (20:39.300)
Maybe, or maybe it was a turn.
Ben Askren (20:40.860)
He'll probably say, no, I didn't, but whatever.
Lex Fridman (20:43.540)
Yeah, so I knew what was going to happen.
Ben Askren (20:45.820)
I knew what the outcome was going to be.
Lex Fridman (20:47.900)
I knew I could probably, I was hoping I could stay competitive
Lex Fridman (20:49.940)
and maybe, you know, lose like 10, two or something.
Lex Fridman (20:51.780)
Like, yeah.
Ben Askren (20:53.700)
Well, let's walk back.
Lex Fridman (20:54.780)
Cause I think I originally brought it up
Ben Askren (20:57.580)
in terms of how prepared were you against Jake Paul
Lex Fridman (21:01.500)
versus Jordan Burrows.
Lex Fridman (21:03.500)
So did you prepare for Jake, cardio wise?
Lex Fridman (21:07.340)
Yeah, I worked hard.
Ben Askren (21:08.820)
Yeah, I did.
Lex Fridman (21:09.660)
But it was, I told you, I started training for my,
Ben Askren (21:13.340)
I mean, once I had my hip surgery,
Lex Fridman (21:15.740)
they said, you know, for the first six weeks,
Ben Askren (21:17.980)
you can't even walk.
Lex Fridman (21:19.620)
And it was hard for me to listen to them
Ben Askren (21:20.860)
cause by week four and a half, five,
Lex Fridman (21:23.540)
I was feeling pretty good.
Ben Askren (21:24.380)
I want to get rid of my crutches.
Lex Fridman (21:25.260)
But I'm like, you know what?
Ben Askren (21:26.500)
This is for the rest of my life.
Lex Fridman (21:28.460)
And if you get the,
Lex Fridman (21:29.300)
so if you get the real hip replacement,
Lex Fridman (21:31.180)
there's no wrestling, there's no nothing, right?
Lex Fridman (21:33.180)
So that's the next step.
Lex Fridman (21:34.180)
So, okay.
Ben Askren (21:35.020)
I'm going to take this serious.
Lex Fridman (21:35.900)
So I do my crutches for six weeks.
Ben Askren (21:37.540)
The next six weeks, it's still like really low weight bearing.
Lex Fridman (21:41.740)
Can't necessarily do anything, you know?
Lex Fridman (21:43.260)
So then I get done with the three months,
Lex Fridman (21:45.380)
which is like January and I'm like, okay,
Ben Askren (21:48.020)
I should start working out.
Lex Fridman (21:49.020)
So I started riding a bike a little bit and then, okay,
Ben Askren (21:51.700)
I'm now I'm fat.
Lex Fridman (21:52.660)
I'm fucking fat.
Ben Askren (21:53.500)
I'm going to get in better shape
Lex Fridman (21:54.340)
cause I haven't been able to do anything.
Lex Fridman (21:55.180)
So I'm actually start working out.
Lex Fridman (21:56.940)
And, and then that happened, right?
Lex Fridman (21:59.420)
So I'm like, okay, well now I got three months
Lex Fridman (22:01.380)
and it gives me a good reason to get back in shape.
Ben Askren (22:03.980)
And, you know, I knew I wasn't going to be a full time boxer.
Lex Fridman (22:08.820)
So it's like, how do I put a boxing camp together?
Lex Fridman (22:11.420)
So I found, you know, I had my old teammate, Mike Rhodes.
Lex Fridman (22:14.420)
He came up and kind of lived with me ish kind of thing
Ben Askren (22:18.220)
for three months.
Lex Fridman (22:19.940)
I found a couple of his guy canine out of Michigan.
Ben Askren (22:23.100)
He came over three weeks.
Lex Fridman (22:24.580)
He was great.
Ben Askren (22:25.540)
I went to Freddie Roach for a week.
Lex Fridman (22:26.980)
So I kind of like, you know,
Ben Askren (22:28.860)
try to get as many good as ideas as I could.
Lex Fridman (22:31.020)
And my thought was like, okay, well if this dude sucks,
Ben Askren (22:34.220)
I can just be tough and, you know, block a few punches,
Lex Fridman (22:36.620)
get him tired and then beat him up.
Ben Askren (22:38.260)
If he's good, that's probably not much of my do about
Lex Fridman (22:40.740)
in the next three months.
Ben Askren (22:41.580)
Cause I'm, I was never good at boxing in the first place.
Lex Fridman (22:44.220)
All of my standup in mixed martial arts was predicated on
Lex Fridman (22:47.460)
how do I get through the two or three punches
Lex Fridman (22:49.340)
that are gonna come at me in the time I need
Ben Askren (22:51.020)
to get a hold of them.
Lex Fridman (22:52.380)
You know, it's all, you only have to make two
Ben Askren (22:54.180)
or three of them miss.
Lex Fridman (22:55.020)
And then boom, you're on top of them, at least for me.
Ben Askren (22:57.780)
That was all my striking was predicated on.
Lex Fridman (22:59.380)
It wasn't about, hey, I'm gonna do damage on the feet
Ben Askren (23:01.540)
in order to make something else happen.
Lex Fridman (23:02.660)
It was like, how do I clear this barrier,
Ben Askren (23:05.660)
get a hold of you.
Lex Fridman (23:06.660)
And if you, I actually did the math one time.
Ben Askren (23:08.500)
I think I got a takedown.
Lex Fridman (23:10.860)
If you include the knockout round against Masvidal,
Ben Askren (23:14.140)
I got a takedown in every round except two.
Lex Fridman (23:16.140)
So it was like, it was like 53 out of 55 rounds in MMA,
Ben Askren (23:18.780)
I got a takedown.
Lex Fridman (23:19.900)
Wow.
Ben Askren (23:20.740)
Somewhere, somewhere in there.
Lex Fridman (23:21.580)
Okay, so you're hunting the takedown once you, once.
Ben Askren (23:24.340)
Right away.
Lex Fridman (23:25.180)
Once you get your hands on them, you get the takedown.
Ben Askren (23:29.340)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (23:30.460)
But the incredible thing about you,
Ben Askren (23:32.940)
I just recently talked, spent a couple of days
Lex Fridman (23:36.460)
with Jimmy Pedro.
Lex Fridman (23:37.940)
And he talked about his guys and just champions in general
Lex Fridman (23:43.220)
hating to lose more than they love winning.
Lex Fridman (23:46.580)
And the way you talked about losing,
Lex Fridman (23:49.060)
you lost very few times in your career,
Ben Askren (23:51.180)
like later you were dominating both wrestling and MMA.
Lex Fridman (23:56.460)
But the way you took these losses against people
Ben Askren (23:58.780)
that are, I don't know, below elite level.
Lex Fridman (24:03.100)
It's fair.
Ben Askren (24:03.940)
I was gonna get pissy, but it's completely fair.
Lex Fridman (24:07.940)
I thought he was a bum too.
Ben Askren (24:09.140)
No, that's not what I meant.
Lex Fridman (24:10.380)
I was in trouble.
Ben Askren (24:11.500)
It's okay, no, it's good.
Lex Fridman (24:12.740)
No, no, no, but like what,
Lex Fridman (24:15.100)
can you explain the psychology behind that?
Lex Fridman (24:17.140)
Like what, is there a system behind this?
Lex Fridman (24:21.140)
Is there a philosophy behind this?
Lex Fridman (24:22.660)
Well, I wasn't very good in the beginning.
Ben Askren (24:26.260)
I think that's where it all starts from.
Lex Fridman (24:27.860)
So I didn't start getting good until the age of like 13.
Ben Askren (24:31.020)
I started at five.
Lex Fridman (24:32.460)
I probably started competing more at age 10, 11.
Ben Askren (24:35.660)
Didn't really get good until 13.
Lex Fridman (24:37.220)
It's still at 13.
Ben Askren (24:38.260)
I'm starting to get great.
Lex Fridman (24:40.180)
I'm getting better, right?
Ben Askren (24:41.380)
I'm pretty good.
Lex Fridman (24:42.900)
So I actually have,
Ben Askren (24:44.180)
I have written this book on sports psych,
Lex Fridman (24:46.220)
but I got someone to write it for me kind of thing.
Ben Askren (24:49.900)
Cause I've had this philosophy for years
Lex Fridman (24:51.540)
that there has to be this balance between two things, right?
Lex Fridman (24:54.260)
So on the one hand, in this category,
Lex Fridman (24:56.580)
on the one hand you have hating to lose.
Lex Fridman (24:59.140)
A great champion has to hate to lose, like you said, right?
Lex Fridman (25:02.100)
But on this other hand,
Lex Fridman (25:03.020)
you have to have someone who seeks out challenges, right?
Lex Fridman (25:07.940)
Cause if you don't have that,
Ben Askren (25:08.860)
you're never gonna reach your full potential either.
Lex Fridman (25:10.540)
And so you have to balance these two balls
Lex Fridman (25:12.940)
at the same time, right?
Lex Fridman (25:14.460)
And so like for me, I always,
Lex Fridman (25:16.780)
and this is maybe cause I wasn't good,
Lex Fridman (25:18.340)
but I was always like,
Ben Askren (25:19.380)
let me go find the best people to wrestle all the time.
Lex Fridman (25:21.540)
Let me go find, I would like literally,
Ben Askren (25:24.140)
like seventh, eighth grade
Lex Fridman (25:24.980)
when I was starting to get better,
Ben Askren (25:26.300)
it was like, and there's no internet.
Lex Fridman (25:28.020)
Well, there's no one was using the internet.
Ben Askren (25:30.060)
It was like a wrestling magazine.
Lex Fridman (25:31.180)
And like, hey dad, there's a tournament here.
Lex Fridman (25:32.980)
I think that, are the kids gonna be there?
Lex Fridman (25:34.260)
Can you take me two hours across the state today, please?
Ben Askren (25:37.740)
You would wrestle like in competition against them.
Lex Fridman (25:40.460)
In competition.
Ben Askren (25:41.300)
Yeah, yeah, in competition.
Lex Fridman (25:42.140)
Hey, I heard there's this tournament.
Ben Askren (25:43.540)
Here's the magazine, this is this tournament.
Lex Fridman (25:45.620)
Hey dad, will you take me over there tomorrow?
Ben Askren (25:47.020)
You weren't trying to win.
Lex Fridman (25:48.620)
You were trying to get the experience.
Ben Askren (25:50.260)
I was trying to wrestle the best guys.
Lex Fridman (25:51.820)
Maybe I win, maybe I lose.
Ben Askren (25:52.980)
There's no, when you do a competition,
Lex Fridman (25:54.700)
there's no guarantee of a winner or a loss.
Lex Fridman (25:57.180)
You're just doing competition, right?
Lex Fridman (25:58.780)
So I wanted to go,
Ben Askren (25:59.860)
I wanted to challenge myself against the best guys
Lex Fridman (26:02.660)
of which I thought maybe I could come out on top, right?
Lex Fridman (26:05.100)
So like eighth grade year, I won way way,
Lex Fridman (26:07.860)
I probably lost a handful of times
Ben Askren (26:09.900)
in the state of Wisconsin.
Lex Fridman (26:11.300)
It was probably really, really minimal
Lex Fridman (26:12.460)
the amount of times I lost, you know?
Lex Fridman (26:13.940)
But it was just about getting the challenge.
Lex Fridman (26:15.540)
And it's like, some kids, and not kids in my club,
Lex Fridman (26:19.220)
because I'll push them very hard on this,
Ben Askren (26:20.580)
are scared of challenging themselves.
Lex Fridman (26:22.780)
They like being the big fish in the small pond.
Ben Askren (26:25.340)
They're not willing to go say,
Lex Fridman (26:26.580)
I want to go get that guy, and I want to get that guy,
Lex Fridman (26:29.060)
and I want to get that guy.
Lex Fridman (26:30.140)
And so that's like, so I think that's part of it for me
Ben Askren (26:32.980)
is like, I always just loved to challenge.
Lex Fridman (26:34.540)
I enjoyed competing thoroughly, right?
Lex Fridman (26:36.940)
And I understood from a young age,
Lex Fridman (26:38.620)
because it wasn't a good, losing is a part of it.
Ben Askren (26:40.540)
You're not always going to win.
Lex Fridman (26:41.860)
And that was kind of it.
Ben Askren (26:43.020)
It's like, hey, sometimes, you know,
Lex Fridman (26:44.780)
and for my MMA career, I never planned it to go that way,
Lex Fridman (26:49.300)
but yeah, I didn't lose for nine years.
Lex Fridman (26:51.180)
And like, that's pretty rare.
Ben Askren (26:52.620)
I didn't plan for that to happen.
Lex Fridman (26:54.340)
That was just what happened, you know?
Ben Askren (26:55.660)
Okay, but you also didn't lose
Lex Fridman (26:58.540)
like the second part of your college career.
Ben Askren (27:00.660)
My 87, I lost, I won my last 87 matches.
Lex Fridman (27:03.340)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (27:04.980)
So that didn't come along with the hatred of losing?
Lex Fridman (27:08.180)
You just.
Ben Askren (27:09.020)
I don't like losing, I still don't like it.
Lex Fridman (27:10.580)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (27:11.420)
But you seem to, okay, but you don't,
Lex Fridman (27:15.180)
you don't seem, you seem to kind of shrug it off
Ben Askren (27:17.500)
a little bit.
Lex Fridman (27:18.340)
Okay, so like with, specifically with these two instances
Ben Askren (27:20.700)
that you bring up.
Lex Fridman (27:21.540)
With the Masvidal, it feels definitely, so, okay.
Ben Askren (27:25.500)
All right, let's.
Lex Fridman (27:26.340)
Let's go, let's go deep, let's go deep.
Ben Askren (27:27.180)
All right.
Lex Fridman (27:28.020)
So the Masvidal one, it feels different,
Ben Askren (27:29.140)
because I had.
Lex Fridman (27:30.660)
So, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Ben Askren (27:31.780)
Let's, for people who don't know.
Lex Fridman (27:33.380)
Okay.
Ben Askren (27:34.220)
Masvidal loss was your first loss.
Lex Fridman (27:36.340)
First loss.
Ben Askren (27:37.180)
In MMA.
Lex Fridman (27:38.020)
Yes.
Ben Askren (27:38.840)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (27:39.680)
I mean, it was a dramatic loss.
Ben Askren (27:41.540)
Very dramatic.
Lex Fridman (27:42.380)
And there was this kind of buildup as you were potentially
Ben Askren (27:45.580)
one of the greats of all time coming into this fight.
Lex Fridman (27:50.900)
And so, this pressure, all of that.
Lex Fridman (27:53.780)
So the, no, I mean, I was thoroughly enjoying it.
Lex Fridman (27:56.220)
I didn't feel the pressure.
Lex Fridman (27:58.220)
So the Masvidal fight is, he got one fucking move on me.
Lex Fridman (28:03.060)
It's not like he beat me.
Lex Fridman (28:04.460)
And if we do that again, I think I win.
Lex Fridman (28:06.440)
At that point in my life, for sure, I think I win
Ben Askren (28:09.980)
way, way, way more times than I lose.
Lex Fridman (28:12.300)
He knew that too.
Ben Askren (28:13.300)
That's why he didn't want to sound the bout agreement.
Lex Fridman (28:15.540)
That's why I had to taunt him and why he got so mad,
Ben Askren (28:17.100)
because I had to continue to taunt him
Lex Fridman (28:18.220)
in order to get him to sign, right?
Lex Fridman (28:21.140)
So that one hurt because, as people don't know,
Lex Fridman (28:23.740)
my MMA career, I'll just go through it fast.
Ben Askren (28:24.980)
I did three fights in like smaller leagues.
Lex Fridman (28:27.460)
I got signed by Bellator.
Ben Askren (28:28.580)
I was undefeated for three and a half years.
Lex Fridman (28:30.540)
I was nine and oh.
Ben Askren (28:31.500)
When I got done with that in 2012, 2013,
Lex Fridman (28:37.960)
I, at that point in my head,
Ben Askren (28:39.520)
I was just going to transition to the UFC
Lex Fridman (28:41.360)
because that's where you go.
Ben Askren (28:42.360)
I was ranked like sixth in the world.
Lex Fridman (28:44.160)
I hadn't really had a competitive match
Ben Askren (28:46.520)
at the end of the Bellator thing.
Lex Fridman (28:48.560)
And Dana White, for a reason still unknown to me,
Ben Askren (28:51.600)
we still haven't had this conversation.
Lex Fridman (28:52.800)
I wish I could ask him, I should ask him sometime,
Ben Askren (28:55.600)
chose to refuse me any entry into the UFC.
Lex Fridman (28:58.520)
He just said, I went to his office
Lex Fridman (29:01.480)
and he literally said, we're not interested.
Lex Fridman (29:03.760)
We're not going to make you an offer.
Ben Askren (29:05.400)
Did you, did you mention something too about him,
Lex Fridman (29:08.360)
about the UFC?
Ben Askren (29:09.200)
That was a year before that.
Lex Fridman (29:10.560)
That was a year before.
Lex Fridman (29:11.400)
And that might play a role in it, I think.
Lex Fridman (29:13.920)
So yes, what happened the year before that
Ben Askren (29:16.560)
was I called him a liar, which,
Lex Fridman (29:19.400)
but listen, I'm writing this one
Ben Askren (29:20.480)
because he said you can't test for drugs
Lex Fridman (29:22.960)
because I'm all natural, which you can tell by my physique.
Lex Fridman (29:26.020)
And I was always put off by the fact
Lex Fridman (29:28.900)
that so many people cheated.
Lex Fridman (29:30.620)
And I was very vocal about that.
Lex Fridman (29:32.940)
And so he had made some statement like,
Ben Askren (29:35.020)
oh, well, there's no way you could test.
Lex Fridman (29:36.100)
I said, bullshit.
Ben Askren (29:36.940)
You, very specifically, I said USADA does it
Lex Fridman (29:39.360)
for all other sports worldwide, you can do it.
Lex Fridman (29:42.900)
And then it was funny
Lex Fridman (29:43.740)
because I hired USADA a couple of years later.
Lex Fridman (29:45.340)
So I think he took some offense to that,
Lex Fridman (29:46.820)
but that was like a year and almost a year and a half,
Ben Askren (29:49.740)
I think, somewhere, years later.
Lex Fridman (29:52.140)
It's not like he holds a grudge or anything.
Ben Askren (29:53.740)
Yeah, so I literally go to Vegas.
Lex Fridman (2:00:02.400)
and so when he told me about crypto,
Ben Askren (2:00:03.400)
this decentralized system that no one has control over,
Lex Fridman (2:00:07.460)
it just made sense, and so we've had the podcast,
Ben Askren (2:00:09.920)
to say Michael Saylor on it, and I love the way he says it.
Lex Fridman (2:00:11.920)
It's like, who do you trust more with your money?
Lex Fridman (2:00:13.600)
Do you trust the politicians, or do you trust engineers?
Lex Fridman (2:00:16.800)
I think that's an easy choice.
Ben Askren (2:00:18.240)
I don't even think, I don't even think
Lex Fridman (2:00:19.640)
I have to think about that.
Ben Askren (2:00:20.480)
I don't trust politicians, no matter what country they come
Lex Fridman (2:00:22.840)
from, China, America, wherever, I don't trust them.
Lex Fridman (2:00:26.320)
So. So what about in 2017, what was it, Bitcoin?
Lex Fridman (2:00:33.240)
Are you, what do you find, which ones do you find interesting?
Ben Askren (2:00:38.280)
Yeah. There's all kinds of ideas,
Lex Fridman (2:00:39.720)
there's the more sort of primal mechanism
Ben Askren (2:00:44.640)
of proof of work and Bitcoin,
Lex Fridman (2:00:46.640)
and then there's smart contracts, ideas,
Lex Fridman (2:00:48.720)
and there's all kinds of innovations
Lex Fridman (2:00:50.960)
across the different points.
Lex Fridman (2:00:53.240)
So I can't say I'm in super deep
Lex Fridman (2:00:55.160)
where I understand the technical components
Ben Askren (2:00:57.040)
of a lot of them.
Lex Fridman (2:00:57.880)
I understand what Bitcoin can do for people,
Lex Fridman (2:00:59.400)
and so that's probably the one I've focused the most on.
Lex Fridman (2:01:03.240)
And I actually, I think I was talking about,
Ben Askren (2:01:05.560)
I was trying to convince Michael to talk about Bitcoin
Lex Fridman (2:01:07.680)
because he hates it also, what he did last night.
Lex Fridman (2:01:09.960)
And I think most of the main problems Bitcoin solves,
Lex Fridman (2:01:13.920)
people in America are so American centric,
Ben Askren (2:01:15.760)
they don't understand it.
Lex Fridman (2:01:16.600)
So like high levels of inflation,
Ben Askren (2:01:18.320)
that hasn't happened in, it's starting to happen,
Lex Fridman (2:01:20.280)
it hasn't happened in America in a long time, right?
Lex Fridman (2:01:21.760)
But someone in Venezuela is like, oh, I get that, you know,
Lex Fridman (2:01:25.600)
or remittance payments, right?
Ben Askren (2:01:27.920)
Remittance payments to, you see it.
Lex Fridman (2:01:30.400)
So I saw this in, when I was spending all the time
Ben Askren (2:01:32.960)
in Singapore, Singapore is obviously
Lex Fridman (2:01:34.840)
a really wealthy country,
Lex Fridman (2:01:36.560)
and so you'd have Indonesian workers or Filipino,
Lex Fridman (2:01:39.040)
and they would all go on Sundays,
Ben Askren (2:01:40.920)
they would go to these places to ship stuff
Lex Fridman (2:01:42.640)
back to their families and through Western Union,
Ben Askren (2:01:44.960)
Western Union gouges the shit out of these people.
Lex Fridman (2:01:46.840)
I mean, they're taking eight, 10, 12%
Ben Askren (2:01:49.080)
of whatever they're sending,
Lex Fridman (2:01:50.560)
then it takes five days and the person's gonna go pick it up,
Ben Askren (2:01:52.920)
whereas Bitcoin, I could send you Bitcoin
Lex Fridman (2:01:55.640)
person to person, right?
Lex Fridman (2:01:56.720)
So like American people don't understand that.
Lex Fridman (2:01:59.080)
American people don't really understand the unbanked, right?
Ben Askren (2:02:01.480)
A decent portion of the world is unbanked,
Lex Fridman (2:02:03.240)
they don't have access to it.
Lex Fridman (2:02:04.560)
And a much, much, much smaller portion of the world
Lex Fridman (2:02:07.560)
doesn't have access to internet.
Lex Fridman (2:02:08.720)
So if I can put a mobile wallet on your phone,
Lex Fridman (2:02:11.720)
and we can send money person to person.
Lex Fridman (2:02:13.960)
So there's a whole bunch of those problems
Lex Fridman (2:02:15.000)
where Americans don't really think about
Ben Askren (2:02:16.720)
that are really obvious that this solves.
Lex Fridman (2:02:20.120)
So I think that's a key one,
Ben Askren (2:02:21.440)
obviously the fact that the value goes up
Lex Fridman (2:02:24.400)
is really outstanding also,
Lex Fridman (2:02:25.840)
but if you look at it, I got in in 2017,
Lex Fridman (2:02:29.800)
so I got to watch it go up.
Ben Askren (2:02:31.840)
I didn't sell shit at the top, really stupid.
Lex Fridman (2:02:34.160)
And then the majority of my time
Ben Askren (2:02:35.720)
was spent through the bear market.
Lex Fridman (2:02:37.480)
And so I had to love it for the principles that it provided,
Ben Askren (2:02:39.880)
not the fact that I actually lost money in the beginning
Lex Fridman (2:02:42.680)
and now I'm way up, but yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:02:45.680)
So I think that.
Lex Fridman (2:02:46.520)
And you're just holding.
Ben Askren (2:02:47.360)
Just holding.
Lex Fridman (2:02:48.280)
I think at the top of this bull market,
Ben Askren (2:02:50.200)
I'll probably sell a very small portion, just to.
Lex Fridman (2:02:53.840)
So you mean like right now there's a bull market?
Ben Askren (2:02:56.000)
Yeah, most people think say in the next three to six months
Lex Fridman (2:02:59.000)
we'll be at the top of the market.
Lex Fridman (2:03:00.720)
And so probably when that happens,
Lex Fridman (2:03:02.560)
I'll probably sell a little bit.
Ben Askren (2:03:04.760)
You gotta hodl it, Ben.
Lex Fridman (2:03:06.280)
You gotta hodl.
Ben Askren (2:03:07.120)
Well, yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:03:07.960)
So here's what I am.
Lex Fridman (2:03:08.920)
So one of my podcast cohosts, he's like super rich,
Lex Fridman (2:03:12.640)
like super rich.
Lex Fridman (2:03:13.800)
So he has lost touch with the every man.
Lex Fridman (2:03:16.120)
So here's my argument to him, it's really simple.
Lex Fridman (2:03:19.080)
And listen, I'm doing well for myself in life,
Lex Fridman (2:03:20.960)
but if say someone buys a Bitcoin, right?
Ben Askren (2:03:24.440)
One Bitcoin at $5,000, which it was last year.
Lex Fridman (2:03:27.960)
And this Bitcoin goes from $5,000 to $200,000,
Ben Askren (2:03:31.880)
which is right around what a lot of people think
Lex Fridman (2:03:34.200)
the peak is going to be.
Ben Askren (2:03:35.600)
They bought one Bitcoin.
Lex Fridman (2:03:36.840)
And they're living in a $200,000 house.
Lex Fridman (2:03:39.600)
So to take half of that, right?
Lex Fridman (2:03:42.360)
You started with $5,000 of the Bitcoin,
Ben Askren (2:03:44.160)
to sell half a Bitcoin for $100,000
Lex Fridman (2:03:47.400)
and pay off your house, your remaining house payment,
Ben Askren (2:03:49.720)
that's life changing to someone.
Lex Fridman (2:03:51.080)
It really is.
Lex Fridman (2:03:52.040)
And so you still have a Bitcoin,
Lex Fridman (2:03:53.720)
so if Bitcoin goes to a million,
Ben Askren (2:03:54.880)
you're still gonna have half a million,
Lex Fridman (2:03:56.520)
and you're gonna feel really, really rich
Ben Askren (2:03:58.120)
with that half a million dollars
Lex Fridman (2:03:59.120)
because you bought it for effing $2,500, you know?
Lex Fridman (2:04:02.600)
So yeah, so I would encourage anyone who's not uber rich
Lex Fridman (2:04:06.120)
to, if you have huge profits, take a little bit of them
Ben Askren (2:04:08.920)
because it could change your life.
Lex Fridman (2:04:11.760)
And if you hold it and it goes down,
Ben Askren (2:04:14.760)
you're going to feel the pain of that.
Lex Fridman (2:04:16.280)
Like sometimes if you're more constrained financially,
Ben Askren (2:04:19.800)
it's much more psychologically difficult
Lex Fridman (2:04:21.440)
to ride the ups and downs.
Ben Askren (2:04:22.920)
Yeah, it is for sure.
Lex Fridman (2:04:23.760)
So they have these really fascinating things in Bitcoin.
Ben Askren (2:04:26.480)
Actually, one of the main guys on our podcast,
Lex Fridman (2:04:29.960)
it's called Onchain Metrics.
Lex Fridman (2:04:31.560)
So all wallet transactions are visible, you know?
Lex Fridman (2:04:34.880)
And so they have all these fun categories.
Lex Fridman (2:04:37.360)
So I think you said you don't like numbers, but.
Lex Fridman (2:04:39.800)
I like numbers.
Ben Askren (2:04:40.640)
Oh, you love numbers.
Lex Fridman (2:04:41.480)
So I love numbers also.
Lex Fridman (2:04:42.760)
So they have all these different categories.
Lex Fridman (2:04:44.160)
Like you can see how long a wallet has held a Bitcoin,
Ben Askren (2:04:49.520)
or how many Bitcoins are in a certain wallet.
Lex Fridman (2:04:51.640)
And so what they've seen during the downturn,
Lex Fridman (2:04:54.120)
so April it kind of peaked and went down,
Lex Fridman (2:04:55.680)
is that the whales are still buying.
Lex Fridman (2:04:58.960)
So whales, people of a thousand or more are still buying.
Lex Fridman (2:05:01.840)
They've said the main group of sellers
Ben Askren (2:05:04.000)
is the ones who held it from zero to three months.
Lex Fridman (2:05:06.280)
So like they don't have money.
Ben Askren (2:05:07.720)
They bought it because they thought it was going up.
Lex Fridman (2:05:09.280)
And I was like, oh shit, I got to sell it, right?
Ben Askren (2:05:11.600)
Whereas anyone who's held it for a long time
Lex Fridman (2:05:13.280)
is generally still holding on to it.
Ben Askren (2:05:15.360)
That's interesting.
Lex Fridman (2:05:16.200)
That's a good indicator, right, for the whole space.
Ben Askren (2:05:19.160)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:05:20.000)
Well, let me ask you for some advice.
Ben Askren (2:05:21.720)
You've been through one heck of a career,
Lex Fridman (2:05:24.120)
one heck of a life.
Lex Fridman (2:05:25.520)
What advice would you give to a young person today?
Lex Fridman (2:05:28.520)
Well, in wrestling, I think wrestling's really a microcosm
Ben Askren (2:05:32.520)
of what your life's going to be.
Lex Fridman (2:05:33.800)
And that's why one of the things I stress to kids is like,
Ben Askren (2:05:36.520)
if we can go through this now and figure,
Lex Fridman (2:05:38.080)
I have a couple of kids who are struggling
Ben Askren (2:05:39.520)
with certain things right now.
Lex Fridman (2:05:40.360)
If you can figure it out this now in wrestling,
Ben Askren (2:05:42.800)
it's going to be a lot better to figure it out now
Lex Fridman (2:05:44.200)
and get over this mental hump
Ben Askren (2:05:46.120)
than when you're 32 and you have two kids, right,
Lex Fridman (2:05:49.280)
and your job's not going well.
Ben Askren (2:05:50.920)
It's going to be a lot worse.
Lex Fridman (2:05:51.760)
It's going to be a lot more painful then.
Ben Askren (2:05:52.840)
Let's fucking figure it out now.
Lex Fridman (2:05:54.720)
So a lot of these things, a lot of these lessons
Ben Askren (2:05:56.280)
we can learn from wrestling,
Lex Fridman (2:05:57.360)
whether it's persistence or perseverance or work ethic,
Ben Askren (2:06:00.680)
or, you know what I said,
Lex Fridman (2:06:01.520)
wrestlers show up on time and they work hard, right?
Ben Askren (2:06:03.640)
These things, if we can learn these things at an early age,
Lex Fridman (2:06:05.920)
those are general, those characteristics
Ben Askren (2:06:08.280)
will generally carry on throughout our life.
Lex Fridman (2:06:10.720)
And those are the things
Ben Askren (2:06:11.560)
that are going to make us really successful.
Lex Fridman (2:06:12.600)
So, you know, I would say find a great coach,
Ben Askren (2:06:15.840)
someone who's going to spend a lot of time
Lex Fridman (2:06:17.080)
and put a lot of time into you
Lex Fridman (2:06:18.080)
and make sure they have a lot of wisdom
Lex Fridman (2:06:19.440)
and steal all the wisdom that you can from them.
Lex Fridman (2:06:22.440)
And then if you can be successful at one thing,
Lex Fridman (2:06:25.680)
generally whatever that recipe was
Ben Askren (2:06:27.520)
that took you to be successful at that,
Lex Fridman (2:06:29.840)
apply it to everything else, right?
Ben Askren (2:06:31.760)
Apply it to the rest of your life.
Lex Fridman (2:06:32.720)
Apply it to getting a wife that you enjoy.
Ben Askren (2:06:36.040)
Apply it to living in a place you want to live,
Lex Fridman (2:06:38.640)
doing a job you want to do, right?
Ben Askren (2:06:40.400)
There's so many possibilities
Lex Fridman (2:06:42.440)
and you just have to be bold enough
Ben Askren (2:06:44.280)
to go take those chances.
Lex Fridman (2:06:45.400)
It's interesting because early on in life
Ben Askren (2:06:47.560)
is when you have much more time.
Lex Fridman (2:06:49.960)
People don't realize it's time to learn the lessons.
Ben Askren (2:06:53.040)
Like somehow later in life,
Lex Fridman (2:06:55.640)
you get busier, responsibilities
Lex Fridman (2:06:57.440)
and all that kind of stuff.
Lex Fridman (2:06:58.560)
Like high school is a magical time.
Ben Askren (2:07:00.200)
You're in college.
Lex Fridman (2:07:01.040)
You're in college, yeah, for sure.
Ben Askren (2:07:01.880)
Yeah, there's so much time to learn.
Lex Fridman (2:07:05.800)
Well, you don't even have kids yet.
Ben Askren (2:07:07.120)
Yeah, I don't have kids, but that still fills up.
Lex Fridman (2:07:09.480)
Well, no, I'm purpose.
Lex Fridman (2:07:10.840)
And I did something that many people
Lex Fridman (2:07:12.800)
don't seem to be able to do.
Ben Askren (2:07:13.800)
I walked away from a lot of responsibilities.
Lex Fridman (2:07:15.840)
How?
Ben Askren (2:07:17.240)
By saying goodbye.
Lex Fridman (2:07:18.760)
Oh, okay.
Lex Fridman (2:07:19.640)
But meetings, everybody around me at MIT
Lex Fridman (2:07:23.280)
was like meetings fill the day.
Lex Fridman (2:07:25.760)
And then you have more projects
Lex Fridman (2:07:27.480)
and you do a great job and you become successful.
Lex Fridman (2:07:30.400)
And then the more meetings fill the day
Lex Fridman (2:07:32.040)
and more responsibilities as opposed to like,
Lex Fridman (2:07:35.360)
wait a minute, do I want to be involved in all these things?
Lex Fridman (2:07:38.920)
And instead, do I want to find one or two things
Lex Fridman (2:07:42.480)
to really focus on?
Lex Fridman (2:07:43.960)
And that's what I choose.
Lex Fridman (2:07:46.000)
But that becomes harder and harder
Lex Fridman (2:07:49.000)
and harder as you get older.
Ben Askren (2:07:50.360)
No, I mean, I'm sure, and also the more success you have,
Lex Fridman (2:07:53.560)
you become sought after other places too.
Ben Askren (2:07:56.240)
I'm sure that's happening with you.
Lex Fridman (2:07:57.440)
And it's hard to keep saying no, no, no.
Ben Askren (2:08:00.400)
Saying no is hard.
Lex Fridman (2:08:01.280)
Yeah.
Ben Askren (2:08:03.000)
You're known for roasting people
Lex Fridman (2:08:04.760)
with a single boom roasted line.
Lex Fridman (2:08:08.680)
So any ideas, maybe you want to mention malice,
Lex Fridman (2:08:11.400)
but any ideas come to mind when you look at me?
Lex Fridman (2:08:14.920)
Man, you know what?
Lex Fridman (2:08:17.320)
If I was going to boom roast someone,
Ben Askren (2:08:19.040)
I would want to kind of like research their career
Lex Fridman (2:08:21.240)
and dissect them and figure out their biggest negatives.
Ben Askren (2:08:23.280)
Get to the core.
Lex Fridman (2:08:24.120)
And I didn't have that notion with you.
Ben Askren (2:08:25.920)
I figured, you know, I got a general sense of,
Lex Fridman (2:08:28.320)
okay, he's really successful, he's super sharp.
Ben Askren (2:08:30.680)
He's really interested in some really interesting things.
Lex Fridman (2:08:32.800)
I bet we'll have a great conversation,
Lex Fridman (2:08:34.160)
but I had no intention to roast you.
Lex Fridman (2:08:36.840)
Yeah, there you go.
Lex Fridman (2:08:37.680)
What about malice?
Lex Fridman (2:08:38.520)
You had dinner with him last night.
Ben Askren (2:08:39.720)
Hmm, for him.
Lex Fridman (2:08:42.200)
Oh man.
Lex Fridman (2:08:44.480)
How'd you get to know him, by the way?
Lex Fridman (2:08:46.320)
Just Twitter.
Lex Fridman (2:08:47.600)
Where's the most magical place in the world, right?
Lex Fridman (2:08:49.600)
I always tell people it's the greatest source of information
Ben Askren (2:08:51.360)
if you know how to use it.
Lex Fridman (2:08:53.640)
Hmm.
Ben Askren (2:08:54.840)
He's insane on Twitter, actually.
Lex Fridman (2:08:56.520)
He's quite a lot.
Lex Fridman (2:08:57.360)
So I had to unfollow him on Twitter,
Lex Fridman (2:08:58.600)
because he was too much.
Lex Fridman (2:08:59.440)
It was too intense?
Lex Fridman (2:09:00.280)
No, it was too much, it fills up.
Ben Askren (2:09:01.760)
Like, I want to be able to consume the content.
Lex Fridman (2:09:03.600)
So if I want to see something he says,
Lex Fridman (2:09:04.760)
I can go to his page, right?
Lex Fridman (2:09:06.880)
But it's just too much for my timeline.
Ben Askren (2:09:08.600)
I want to be able to consume who I follow.
Lex Fridman (2:09:10.840)
So I try to not follow a lot of people,
Ben Askren (2:09:12.160)
because I want to be able to consume them.
Lex Fridman (2:09:13.800)
And he was too much.
Ben Askren (2:09:16.000)
He fights the trolls, which,
Lex Fridman (2:09:18.640)
I don't know why you'd ever fight the trolls.
Ben Askren (2:09:20.320)
There's just too many of them.
Lex Fridman (2:09:21.640)
Well, he's a troll himself.
Ben Askren (2:09:22.760)
He's like the big troll fighting the little trolls.
Lex Fridman (2:09:25.560)
He's the king troll.
Ben Askren (2:09:27.120)
There's a million of them.
Lex Fridman (2:09:27.960)
So even if you kill 100,000,
Ben Askren (2:09:30.080)
there's still not 100,000 left.
Lex Fridman (2:09:31.400)
You just gotta ignore them.
Ben Askren (2:09:33.120)
It's like the Nightwalker or whatever.
Lex Fridman (2:09:35.120)
Yeah.
Ben Askren (2:09:36.440)
Well, I'll take it, because you had nothing,
Lex Fridman (2:09:39.240)
you couldn't rose GSP out of respect, too.
Lex Fridman (2:09:41.920)
So I'm just going to take that as a sign of respect.
Lex Fridman (2:09:43.760)
What do you say bad about GSP?
Ben Askren (2:09:45.400)
Now I try to rose his hair.
Lex Fridman (2:09:46.960)
Like, why are you trying to grow hair now
Lex Fridman (2:09:48.720)
after all these years?
Lex Fridman (2:09:49.880)
He looked good, bald.
Ben Askren (2:09:50.920)
Everyone loved him with his head shaved.
Lex Fridman (2:09:53.040)
Now it looks kind of strange.
Lex Fridman (2:09:53.960)
Like, why you got hair now?
Lex Fridman (2:09:55.080)
Well, it was one of the more surreal moments of my life.
Lex Fridman (2:09:57.960)
So he was here and he wore a black suit and tie.
Lex Fridman (2:10:02.440)
Oh, really?
Ben Askren (2:10:03.280)
Yeah, we did the podcast with him,
Lex Fridman (2:10:04.120)
just mirror image of me.
Lex Fridman (2:10:06.440)
And then we also did, I haven't released it yet,
Lex Fridman (2:10:08.600)
but just the video together.
Lex Fridman (2:10:09.880)
And I was doing a martial arts stuff in a suit and tie.
Lex Fridman (2:10:13.160)
That was quite,
Ben Askren (2:10:14.240)
that was quite, that's like,
Lex Fridman (2:10:18.080)
like certain moments in your life are just like,
Ben Askren (2:10:21.040)
I can't believe I was part of that.
Lex Fridman (2:10:22.680)
Yeah, with GSP, so yeah,
Ben Askren (2:10:24.800)
I don't think I have anything to rose him about.
Lex Fridman (2:10:28.360)
I mean, maybe the Matt Serra thing
Lex Fridman (2:10:29.680)
would be the one that you could get him with, you know?
Lex Fridman (2:10:32.520)
I would be really fascinated,
Ben Askren (2:10:34.200)
like really dig deep from a sports psychology standpoint,
Lex Fridman (2:10:37.920)
because he always talks about how much fear he had
Ben Askren (2:10:39.640)
when he was competing.
Lex Fridman (2:10:40.920)
And I find that to be interesting because obviously,
Lex Fridman (2:10:43.960)
so it's almost like, to me, it's almost like,
Lex Fridman (2:10:46.120)
was he successful despite that?
Lex Fridman (2:10:48.880)
Not because of that, right?
Lex Fridman (2:10:50.640)
And because anxiety usually leads
Ben Askren (2:10:53.120)
to really negative performance for the majority of people.
Lex Fridman (2:10:55.440)
And what was it about him
Lex Fridman (2:10:57.400)
that the anxiety wasn't super negative?
Lex Fridman (2:10:59.800)
You know what I'm saying?
Ben Askren (2:11:00.640)
Like, it's very interesting.
Lex Fridman (2:11:02.320)
I wonder that too.
Lex Fridman (2:11:03.160)
So I have, I wondered that about him,
Lex Fridman (2:11:05.360)
but I have a huge amount of anxiety interacting,
Ben Askren (2:11:07.960)
especially with people, just about everything, yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:11:10.960)
I wonder if that's helpful or not.
Ben Askren (2:11:13.480)
It feels like it's very helpful.
Lex Fridman (2:11:15.200)
Well, I think, so okay, I think in two different ways.
Lex Fridman (2:11:17.800)
So I think probably your everyday life, okay,
Lex Fridman (2:11:20.840)
is different than like in a performance or a competition.
Ben Askren (2:11:25.200)
You have to be like super in the moment
Lex Fridman (2:11:27.600)
of what you're doing.
Lex Fridman (2:11:28.800)
So anything that's pulling you away,
Lex Fridman (2:11:30.600)
like, oh my gosh, you know,
Ben Askren (2:11:31.920)
for high school kids, right, that coach.
Lex Fridman (2:11:33.760)
Oh my gosh, that girl's in the stands,
Lex Fridman (2:11:35.960)
and if I get beat, then,
Lex Fridman (2:11:37.720)
and they're actively thinking about this other thing
Ben Askren (2:11:40.560)
when this is going on.
Lex Fridman (2:11:41.960)
And I need 100% of your focus right here.
Ben Askren (2:11:44.440)
He's never, I don't think he has anxiety in the ring.
Lex Fridman (2:11:47.040)
That's the point.
Ben Askren (2:11:47.880)
I think, like, I have the same thing.
Lex Fridman (2:11:50.160)
Like if I have a really high performance thing
Ben Askren (2:11:53.840)
that I have to do, I don't know,
Lex Fridman (2:11:55.800)
a lecture in front of a lot of people.
Ben Askren (2:11:57.080)
Yeah, that'd be a great example.
Lex Fridman (2:11:58.720)
That, there's huge amount of anxiety weeks ahead,
Ben Askren (2:12:02.040)
days ahead, hours ahead.
Lex Fridman (2:12:03.800)
So you have a system to get rid of it then?
Ben Askren (2:12:05.960)
As you perform. No, maybe,
Lex Fridman (2:12:07.560)
but it's just the body gets rid of it somehow.
Ben Askren (2:12:10.280)
Yeah, there's not a system.
Lex Fridman (2:12:11.560)
Subconscious system.
Ben Askren (2:12:12.920)
Yeah, it's self preservation.
Lex Fridman (2:12:14.760)
So you don't actually have anxiety
Ben Askren (2:12:15.760)
while you're performing.
Lex Fridman (2:12:17.280)
So that's like, so then that problem,
Lex Fridman (2:12:19.880)
somehow that problem has solved itself, right?
Lex Fridman (2:12:21.920)
The problem is when the anxiety is actually happening
Ben Askren (2:12:24.280)
while the wrestling match is happening,
Lex Fridman (2:12:26.000)
that's the real issue.
Ben Askren (2:12:27.520)
Yeah, but it like sneaks in there too.
Lex Fridman (2:12:30.560)
That's the difference, you know, MMA and wrestling
Lex Fridman (2:12:33.000)
is there's no breaks in wrestling, right?
Lex Fridman (2:12:37.080)
I guess there is, you can look at the crowd a little bit,
Ben Askren (2:12:39.960)
like you can look, so maybe,
Lex Fridman (2:12:42.400)
but like the, there's other things we have to perform.
Ben Askren (2:12:46.480)
Well, there's more breaks, like a lecture,
Lex Fridman (2:12:48.360)
you can catch yourself thinking,
Ben Askren (2:12:49.520)
like in this conversation, you know,
Lex Fridman (2:12:51.640)
like I've said a bunch of stuff where I think,
Lex Fridman (2:12:54.400)
why the hell did you say that?
Lex Fridman (2:12:55.680)
That's dumb, right?
Ben Askren (2:12:57.040)
That's the anxiety because there's a pause
Lex Fridman (2:13:00.200)
and that could be, I don't know,
Ben Askren (2:13:02.560)
I think it just pushes me to be better,
Lex Fridman (2:13:05.240)
but maybe I could be way better if I let go of that.
Ben Askren (2:13:08.160)
It's scary to think that GSB, if you let go of that,
Lex Fridman (2:13:10.160)
but he didn't.
Lex Fridman (2:13:11.000)
Could he have been better?
Lex Fridman (2:13:12.280)
Or did he ever, did he have a,
Ben Askren (2:13:14.240)
like you're saying like, you don't necessarily feel those.
Lex Fridman (2:13:17.160)
So I think certain people that I've coached,
Ben Askren (2:13:19.200)
like they would describe how they would feel
Lex Fridman (2:13:21.560)
literally during the wrestling match, right?
Lex Fridman (2:13:24.160)
And you're saying like during the speech performance,
Lex Fridman (2:13:27.080)
it's mostly gone.
Lex Fridman (2:13:28.600)
And that's interesting to see if like,
Lex Fridman (2:13:31.520)
he talked a lot about that,
Lex Fridman (2:13:32.680)
but if it was all the way somehow gone,
Lex Fridman (2:13:35.160)
and it means he would have a mechanism for it.
Lex Fridman (2:13:36.960)
So like I had a really bad performance
Lex Fridman (2:13:38.200)
my freshman year of high school at nationals,
Ben Askren (2:13:41.120)
cause I had the ability to be anxious.
Lex Fridman (2:13:43.400)
And one of my coaches talked about like,
Lex Fridman (2:13:44.880)
and a lot of A type personalities are kind of that way,
Lex Fridman (2:13:48.160)
you know, because they're trying to consider
Ben Askren (2:13:49.720)
all possibilities at the same time.
Lex Fridman (2:13:52.000)
And while we're actually performing or competing,
Lex Fridman (2:13:54.880)
it's negative to performance, right?
Lex Fridman (2:13:57.520)
So he said he would always leading up to the match
Ben Askren (2:14:00.640)
within say an hour, his name was talking about fishing.
Lex Fridman (2:14:03.520)
He would get someone to talk about fishing with him
Ben Askren (2:14:04.680)
because it would stop him thinking about the match
Lex Fridman (2:14:06.280)
and being uber anxious.
Lex Fridman (2:14:08.000)
So I kind of took it to heart and it really helped me
Lex Fridman (2:14:10.360)
as I would always like have someone to talk to
Lex Fridman (2:14:12.480)
and just goof around about whatever.
Lex Fridman (2:14:14.760)
So I'm not thinking about this thing.
Lex Fridman (2:14:16.520)
And then once I step in, it's time to go.
Lex Fridman (2:14:18.320)
So I didn't have this like anxious buildup.
Ben Askren (2:14:20.880)
Now it's how for me, I took it away, but like me,
Lex Fridman (2:14:22.880)
you know, like you said, you have a way to get it away,
Ben Askren (2:14:25.520)
obviously, cause it's there and then it's not.
Lex Fridman (2:14:26.360)
Yeah, I guess so, I guess there's a little tricks
Ben Askren (2:14:28.200)
you come up with.
Lex Fridman (2:14:29.040)
Yeah, you start thinking about it's not fishing,
Ben Askren (2:14:30.520)
maybe I should try the fishing thing.
Lex Fridman (2:14:32.520)
I hate fishing, so boring.
Lex Fridman (2:14:34.320)
But maybe it's good to think about that.
Lex Fridman (2:14:37.120)
All right, Ben, this is, like I told you, I'm a big fan.
Ben Askren (2:14:40.360)
I'm a big fan of your wrestling, your fighting,
Lex Fridman (2:14:42.240)
your personality.
Ben Askren (2:14:44.240)
Thank you for coming down.
Lex Fridman (2:14:45.200)
Thank you for talking today.
Ben Askren (2:14:46.160)
Appreciate it.
Lex Fridman (2:14:47.000)
It's a huge honor.
Ben Askren (2:14:48.120)
Bam, let's go wrestle.
Lex Fridman (2:14:50.760)
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Ben Askren.
Ben Askren (2:14:53.480)
To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors
Lex Fridman (2:14:56.240)
in the description.
Lex Fridman (2:14:57.640)
And now let me leave you with some words
Lex Fridman (2:14:59.600)
from Muhammad Ali.
Ben Askren (2:15:01.480)
Only a man who knows what it is like to be defeated
Lex Fridman (2:15:05.520)
can reach down to the bottom of his soul
Lex Fridman (2:15:08.720)
and come up with the extra ounce of power it takes
Lex Fridman (2:15:12.000)
to win when the match is even.
Ben Askren (2:15:14.600)
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
Lex Fridman (30:00.220)
It's a long story.
Ben Askren (30:01.060)
You can read about it other places.
Lex Fridman (30:02.380)
So I got released from a belt.
Ben Askren (30:03.660)
It's not like this is a negotiation.
Lex Fridman (30:04.980)
I got released from my belt or contract.
Ben Askren (30:06.420)
I said, I'm out of here.
Lex Fridman (30:07.280)
I'm going to go to the UFC.
Ben Askren (30:09.380)
I go to Vegas, and then I was told,
Lex Fridman (30:12.700)
hey, there's no offer for you.
Lex Fridman (30:14.340)
Tough shit, you know?
Lex Fridman (30:15.760)
So then I ended up signing with one championship.
Ben Askren (30:19.420)
I spent, what, three and a half years there.
Lex Fridman (30:21.700)
I won the belt in my second fight
Lex Fridman (30:23.020)
and retained the title the entire time.
Lex Fridman (30:25.980)
And then I just, I think.
Ben Askren (30:26.820)
Again, dominating people.
Lex Fridman (30:27.940)
Yeah, I didn't have a competitive fight.
Lex Fridman (30:29.820)
And so I retired 18 and 0.
Lex Fridman (30:32.420)
Never, never, and for someone who loves a challenge,
Ben Askren (30:34.700)
never getting to really challenge myself
Lex Fridman (30:36.260)
was incredibly frustrating.
Lex Fridman (30:37.940)
And I left the door open.
Lex Fridman (30:39.340)
I said, if I ever get the chance
Ben Askren (30:40.900)
to prove I'm the best in the world,
Lex Fridman (30:41.740)
I'd love to come back.
Lex Fridman (30:42.900)
So somehow, a year later, I get traded.
Lex Fridman (30:45.980)
Trades have never happened,
Lex Fridman (30:46.900)
and this is the one and only trade ever.
Lex Fridman (30:49.580)
I've been retired for a year.
Ben Askren (30:50.840)
I got traded.
Lex Fridman (30:51.860)
I get to come back.
Ben Askren (30:52.700)
I fight Robbie Lawler, the first fight.
Lex Fridman (30:54.540)
I win.
Lex Fridman (30:55.500)
And then essentially, they're saying,
Lex Fridman (30:56.620)
okay, if you fight, if you beat George,
Ben Askren (30:59.740)
you're gonna get the title shot against Marty.
Lex Fridman (31:01.700)
And it's like, this is what I've been working for
Ben Askren (31:05.780)
the entire, I've been trying to prove
Lex Fridman (31:06.740)
I was the best fighter in the world
Ben Askren (31:07.620)
for the last 10 years,
Lex Fridman (31:08.460)
and I've not been afforded this opportunity.
Lex Fridman (31:12.420)
So when I lost to George, that was hard,
Lex Fridman (31:14.320)
because it was something that I had waited for
Ben Askren (31:18.260)
for a really, really long time.
Lex Fridman (31:20.160)
It was something that I thought I could compete for,
Lex Fridman (31:22.220)
but I never got the opportunity to do,
Lex Fridman (31:23.260)
so that one was hard.
Ben Askren (31:25.260)
At the same time, from just the competitive logistically,
Lex Fridman (31:27.780)
it's like, he got me with one move.
Ben Askren (31:29.260)
It wasn't like he beat my ass for 15 minutes,
Lex Fridman (31:31.100)
and I got beat a bunch of different ways.
Lex Fridman (31:33.420)
So that was like, fuck, if I get it again,
Lex Fridman (31:36.420)
I could have done it,
Lex Fridman (31:37.240)
but they're not gonna let me have it again.
Lex Fridman (31:38.740)
It's not like wrestling where you could go
Ben Askren (31:40.020)
the next year or the next week or whatever.
Lex Fridman (31:42.420)
You lose at Big Ten,
Ben Askren (31:43.260)
you go to nationals two weeks later.
Lex Fridman (31:45.000)
Does that loss change you in any way, your psychology?
Ben Askren (31:48.540)
I don't think so.
Lex Fridman (31:50.060)
It's the first loss.
Ben Askren (31:51.540)
I mean, had I had a longer MMA career post that,
Lex Fridman (31:56.340)
there definitely would have been a lot of time spent
Lex Fridman (31:58.900)
getting better at the entry point to the takedown, right?
Lex Fridman (32:01.940)
Which I already spent time there,
Lex Fridman (32:03.900)
and I hate making excuses, but yeah, the hip,
Lex Fridman (32:06.840)
the hinging of my hip, what I couldn't do,
Ben Askren (32:09.260)
was preventing me from doing some things,
Lex Fridman (32:11.400)
and it's why, if you look at the fight,
Ben Askren (32:12.940)
I'm bent over as I go for the double leg.
Lex Fridman (32:15.480)
Yeah, so.
Lex Fridman (32:16.320)
So what happened for people who don't know,
Lex Fridman (32:17.260)
you went in for a double leg, and he went.
Ben Askren (32:19.500)
Flying knee.
Lex Fridman (32:20.340)
He did a flying knee, and it caught you well.
Ben Askren (32:22.900)
Specifically the way he did that knee
Lex Fridman (32:24.580)
was kind of different than the way
Ben Askren (32:25.900)
anyone had thrown flying knees before.
Lex Fridman (32:28.360)
Most people go more just from a stand straight vertical,
Ben Askren (32:31.080)
whereas he took a few like running steps
Lex Fridman (32:33.180)
and went more, you know,
Ben Askren (32:34.340)
the trajectory of the angle was different.
Lex Fridman (32:37.620)
So I think that's kind of probably why it caught,
Ben Askren (32:39.740)
you know, I think a lot of things in combat,
Lex Fridman (32:42.420)
well, probably everything,
Lex Fridman (32:43.260)
but I focus specifically on combat,
Lex Fridman (32:44.820)
happen subconsciously.
Ben Askren (32:45.880)
Like our brain is reading what's coming at us,
Lex Fridman (32:48.620)
and lots of times it's stuff we've seen before
Lex Fridman (32:50.940)
so we can judge how to move correctly.
Lex Fridman (32:53.140)
And you misread because it's something
Ben Askren (32:54.740)
you haven't seen before.
Lex Fridman (32:55.620)
Had not seen him come at that specific angle, yeah.
Lex Fridman (32:58.360)
So that loss was really hard.
Lex Fridman (32:59.860)
With the Burroughs one, I told you,
Ben Askren (33:02.140)
I knew I was gonna lose.
Lex Fridman (33:03.240)
So it was like, whatever, you know?
Ben Askren (33:05.340)
I'm taking this because I want to put
Lex Fridman (33:07.800)
the sport of wrestling out there in a big way.
Ben Askren (33:09.580)
I wanna help them raise a lot of money.
Lex Fridman (33:10.980)
We sold at Madison Square Garden,
Ben Askren (33:12.660)
Hulu Theater, and we raised a whole bunch of money.
Lex Fridman (33:14.460)
So my goals were accomplished.
Ben Askren (33:16.260)
Jake Paul fight, I took it because
Lex Fridman (33:18.180)
they paid me a whole bunch of money,
Lex Fridman (33:19.020)
and I thought it was gonna be fun.
Lex Fridman (33:20.020)
Did I have any illusion I was a great boxer?
Ben Askren (33:21.940)
No illusions whatsoever.
Lex Fridman (33:23.720)
Would I have preferred to win?
Ben Askren (33:25.180)
Absolutely, but like I told everyone,
Lex Fridman (33:27.800)
whether I win or lose on Saturday night,
Ben Askren (33:29.300)
I'm gonna be back coaching wrestling on Monday,
Lex Fridman (33:31.180)
because that's what I enjoy doing,
Lex Fridman (33:32.380)
and I was back coaching wrestling on Monday.
Lex Fridman (33:34.300)
And once I'm out, these middle school kids
Ben Askren (33:35.900)
give me a little bit of shit about it.
Lex Fridman (33:38.060)
That's it.
Lex Fridman (33:38.900)
But where were you in terms of your shape
Lex Fridman (33:41.920)
and how you felt in the Mazodal fight?
Ben Askren (33:44.940)
Would you say you're on the,
Lex Fridman (33:46.400)
I mean, it's a difficult question to ask
Ben Askren (33:48.300)
of a world class athlete, but like,
Lex Fridman (33:51.460)
were you past peak?
Ben Askren (33:54.540)
Oh yeah, I don't know why guys like to lie about that.
Lex Fridman (33:58.020)
I mean, the peak for me was really evidently
Ben Askren (34:00.460)
in my late 20s, and maybe they are all fueled
Lex Fridman (34:04.660)
by extra supplements, I don't know.
Lex Fridman (34:07.420)
But for me, that was evident.
Lex Fridman (34:09.100)
But you get this, so you get this crosshair
Ben Askren (34:11.580)
where if you're smart, like I mentioned John Burrows was,
Lex Fridman (34:16.020)
you're still gaining wisdom, you're gaining strategy,
Lex Fridman (34:18.180)
you're gaining a lot of things, right?
Lex Fridman (34:19.820)
And so while your physicality may go down,
Ben Askren (34:22.140)
your overall skill level still may be rising,
Lex Fridman (34:24.540)
especially in MMA because people usually start later
Ben Askren (34:28.060)
because they're gaining wisdom, strategy,
Lex Fridman (34:29.860)
all of the, maybe more tools in their toolbox, right?
Ben Askren (34:32.060)
They're getting all these things.
Lex Fridman (34:32.980)
So their actual competitive peak,
Ben Askren (34:35.420)
despite their athletic peak going down,
Lex Fridman (34:37.080)
might still be a few years past that, right?
Ben Askren (34:39.820)
Because these things are crossing.
Lex Fridman (34:41.740)
No, so I felt I was great.
Ben Askren (34:43.360)
Obviously the hip was an issue.
Lex Fridman (34:46.260)
It's funny because I knew I had a lot of pain here,
Lex Fridman (34:51.460)
and I knew it was because of this.
Lex Fridman (34:53.060)
And it was like, okay, whenever I'm done,
Ben Askren (34:54.220)
I'll just get it taken care of, whatever.
Lex Fridman (34:56.560)
But every time I train, I have pain kind of like
Ben Askren (34:58.660)
all up my back, and the day after the surgery,
Lex Fridman (35:02.220)
I woke up and there was no pain on the right side of my,
Ben Askren (35:05.340)
the surgery was on the left side.
Lex Fridman (35:06.460)
There was no pain on the right side of my back.
Ben Askren (35:07.740)
I'm like, that's fucking weird.
Lex Fridman (35:08.980)
Like every morning I wake up,
Lex Fridman (35:10.260)
there's a lot of pain there, you know?
Lex Fridman (35:12.100)
I'm like, okay, well I'm on pain pills.
Ben Askren (35:14.460)
Maybe it'll come back tomorrow.
Lex Fridman (35:16.140)
And that's because I'd never been back since my hip surgery.
Lex Fridman (35:19.160)
So it was weird, because it was like this,
Lex Fridman (35:21.220)
I thought this was affecting this,
Lex Fridman (35:23.120)
but it was affecting all the way across my whole back.
Lex Fridman (35:26.460)
So if I get to get a new hip, honestly,
Ben Askren (35:28.700)
if I, I don't know if this is gonna change
Lex Fridman (35:31.460)
the competitive outcome whatsoever.
Ben Askren (35:33.660)
If I had known how good the hip replacement was gonna be,
Lex Fridman (35:36.620)
I would have done it the second I retired
Ben Askren (35:38.560)
from one championship in November of 2017.
Lex Fridman (35:41.520)
I would have had my hip surgery scheduled for December 1.
Ben Askren (35:44.780)
Just from a lifestyle standpoint,
Lex Fridman (35:46.300)
I could only sleep in one position.
Ben Askren (35:48.420)
There was a lot of things I couldn't do.
Lex Fridman (35:49.620)
I was in a lot of pain.
Lex Fridman (35:51.260)
So I would have done that a lot earlier.
Lex Fridman (35:52.740)
But no, from an athletic point, I was ready.
Ben Askren (35:55.780)
This shit goes wrong sometimes.
Lex Fridman (35:58.500)
I don't know how to ask this, but you know,
Ben Askren (36:00.440)
Joe Rogan, me, had a sense about you similar to like Fedor,
Lex Fridman (36:08.180)
that you are potentially one of the greatest ever.
Ben Askren (36:11.100)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (36:12.140)
Does it hurt that you're not in the discussion now
Lex Fridman (36:15.500)
of being in the top 10 of all time?
Lex Fridman (36:19.500)
I didn't prove it.
Ben Askren (36:20.660)
I don't deserve it.
Lex Fridman (36:21.980)
Biera, I mean.
Lex Fridman (36:23.540)
But I didn't prove it.
Lex Fridman (36:24.600)
I mean, and so it's like, had I somehow gotten
Ben Askren (36:29.100)
to convince Dana White, we go and convince him in 2013
Lex Fridman (36:32.140)
to make me an offer, and I didn't even need a good offer.
Ben Askren (36:35.060)
I just needed any offer.
Lex Fridman (36:36.160)
Had I gotten the offer then,
Lex Fridman (36:37.780)
maybe the outcome's different, right?
Lex Fridman (36:39.780)
But given, I would never expect anyone
Ben Askren (36:42.020)
to think of me that way.
Lex Fridman (36:43.180)
I didn't prove it.
Ben Askren (36:44.060)
I know what I was, and I'm good with that.
Lex Fridman (36:47.420)
And yeah, other people never got to see that.
Lex Fridman (36:49.140)
Do you think, well, you can't know fully, right?
Lex Fridman (36:51.980)
Do you think if you went to the UFC at that time
Lex Fridman (36:55.780)
instead of one championship?
Lex Fridman (36:56.860)
I think I would have had a lot of success.
Ben Askren (36:59.200)
Yeah, I mean, there's obviously certain guys,
Lex Fridman (37:01.040)
there's a lot of guys I've trained with
Ben Askren (37:02.340)
that I had a lot of really good results against.
Lex Fridman (37:05.580)
And obviously, Tyron was a champion for a long time there.
Lex Fridman (37:12.220)
So I was around, Tyron was a champion,
Lex Fridman (37:13.820)
Anthony was a champion at lightweight.
Ben Askren (37:15.140)
I was, you know, same gym as him,
Lex Fridman (37:17.300)
and we had a lot of people coming through.
Ben Askren (37:19.300)
Yeah, I.
Lex Fridman (37:20.140)
Would you face Tyron?
Lex Fridman (37:21.700)
Would I have fought him?
Lex Fridman (37:22.520)
I don't think so.
Ben Askren (37:23.500)
I mean, so he was still the champion when I came into the UFC
Lex Fridman (37:26.300)
and we said, no, we're not gonna fight.
Ben Askren (37:29.180)
All right.
Lex Fridman (37:30.660)
Hey, so he can't change history, right?
Lex Fridman (37:32.520)
So once something happens,
Lex Fridman (37:33.460)
you gotta accept for what it is.
Lex Fridman (37:35.060)
And move forward and obviously hope you can continue
Lex Fridman (37:38.300)
to keep accomplishing great things,
Ben Askren (37:39.700)
which for me, obviously my athletic career is over.
Lex Fridman (37:42.380)
So now it's gonna be through my wrestling academies
Lex Fridman (37:45.380)
and you know, who knows what else I get into.
Lex Fridman (37:48.140)
You might do exhibition matches
Lex Fridman (37:51.300)
and all that kind of stuff, right?
Lex Fridman (37:52.620)
Says who?
Lex Fridman (37:53.460)
Wrestling and stuff, no?
Lex Fridman (37:55.540)
I don't think so.
Lex Fridman (37:56.420)
So here's my thing with the wrestling matches is like,
Lex Fridman (37:59.540)
just for fun, if you said, hey Ben, just for fun.
Ben Askren (38:01.740)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (38:02.580)
Would you love to go wrestle someone?
Lex Fridman (38:03.560)
Yeah, I would, I would, right?
Lex Fridman (38:05.580)
I love wrestling, I get in there.
Ben Askren (38:07.700)
I love, you know, I love like,
Lex Fridman (38:09.000)
so one of my guys has gotten to be pretty good.
Ben Askren (38:11.420)
He's in college, he got in Keegan O'Toole.
Lex Fridman (38:12.940)
He just won a junior world title this year.
Lex Fridman (38:16.140)
And so when I'm doing private lessons,
Lex Fridman (38:19.220)
I have such think about the development of the athletes.
Ben Askren (38:21.060)
Sometimes I can wrestle hard, but most of the time
Lex Fridman (38:22.740)
it's like, I'm just gonna help them
Ben Askren (38:24.700)
with whatever they need help with.
Lex Fridman (38:25.840)
And it's still wrestling and it's fun, but it's helping them.
Ben Askren (38:28.520)
You know, for like, Keegan comes back this summer
Lex Fridman (38:30.260)
and he's training for the junior world title.
Lex Fridman (38:31.340)
So to be able to just shake hands sometimes and say like,
Lex Fridman (38:33.660)
I'm gonna try to kick your ass.
Lex Fridman (38:35.300)
Should you try to kick my ass?
Lex Fridman (38:36.320)
You know, like just to go, like.
Ben Askren (38:37.640)
Yeah, it's a good feeling.
Lex Fridman (38:38.480)
It's so much fun.
Lex Fridman (38:39.520)
And I don't get to do that very much.
Lex Fridman (38:40.780)
So if you said, Ben, would you love to do some matches?
Lex Fridman (38:42.660)
And the answer is yeah.
Lex Fridman (38:44.300)
The problem, unfortunately for me,
Lex Fridman (38:46.520)
and maybe you could talk me off a ledge here,
Lex Fridman (38:48.540)
is like, because of where I've gotten to in my career,
Ben Askren (38:50.740)
if I choose to do a wrestling match,
Lex Fridman (38:52.220)
it's gonna, people are gonna be really excited about it.
Ben Askren (38:53.780)
It's gonna blow up and it's just like,
Lex Fridman (38:56.020)
I just want to wrestle just to wrestle.
Ben Askren (38:57.380)
I'd rather just like go in a room
Lex Fridman (38:59.140)
where no one can watch and just wrestle.
Ben Askren (39:00.580)
I just enjoy it.
Lex Fridman (39:01.980)
Well, you could also wrestle.
Lex Fridman (39:03.540)
So there's different kinds of wrestling.
Lex Fridman (39:05.380)
There's wrestling where there's an event
Lex Fridman (39:07.900)
and like, you know, there's a buildup and then an announcement.
Lex Fridman (39:11.540)
And you can also do like a Khabib style,
Ben Askren (39:14.580)
like in the room, there's cameras
Lex Fridman (39:16.940)
and you're kind of going, it's like the.
Lex Fridman (39:18.860)
Wait, Khabib does that?
Lex Fridman (39:20.240)
No, in.
Ben Askren (39:21.660)
Marcelo does that.
Lex Fridman (39:22.480)
He whooped my ass a few times.
Ben Askren (39:23.320)
Yeah, exactly.
Lex Fridman (39:24.180)
I mean, I've seen Khabib in some videos.
Ben Askren (39:26.340)
It's not like set up, it's just people going hard
Lex Fridman (39:28.780)
and then it's more fun.
Ben Askren (39:30.380)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (39:31.220)
You know, and it's also more like
Lex Fridman (39:35.380)
presenting the beauty of the sport, you know?
Lex Fridman (39:38.380)
For sure.
Lex Fridman (39:39.220)
And like, and there's no winning or losing really
Lex Fridman (39:41.780)
in that context.
Ben Askren (39:42.940)
Yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (39:43.780)
Like you're just, you're always joking around a little bit,
Ben Askren (39:45.940)
even when you're going super hard.
Lex Fridman (39:47.140)
So I feel like, especially in the modern day
Ben Askren (39:49.340)
with the internet, that's a compelling way to do.
Lex Fridman (39:52.420)
So I've thought about,
Ben Askren (39:53.660)
this is the one thing I've thought about doing.
Lex Fridman (39:55.820)
Cause I told you about my buddy was the content thing.
Ben Askren (39:58.940)
It's called Rockfin.
Lex Fridman (40:00.340)
Thought about doing, you know,
Ben Askren (40:01.180)
the old really famous Gracie challenge.
Lex Fridman (40:03.140)
Yeah.
Ben Askren (40:03.980)
Okay, so I've thought about doing the aspirin challenge.
Lex Fridman (40:05.220)
You wanna hear my rule set?
Ben Askren (40:06.140)
Yeah, let's go.
Lex Fridman (40:06.980)
I'm not sure I'm gonna do this.
Ben Askren (40:07.980)
People are gonna show up to your, like in Wisconsin.
Lex Fridman (40:10.740)
I have to select you.
Lex Fridman (40:11.660)
I'll start with a thousand bucks, right?
Lex Fridman (40:13.220)
Right.
Ben Askren (40:14.060)
Okay, 30 minutes.
Lex Fridman (40:14.980)
You pin me or I pin you.
Ben Askren (40:16.460)
That's it.
Lex Fridman (40:17.300)
No points, no nothing.
Ben Askren (40:18.220)
We just wrestle.
Lex Fridman (40:19.180)
Camera, that's it, right?
Ben Askren (40:20.500)
It's camera in the room.
Lex Fridman (40:21.340)
Maybe there's a referee
Ben Askren (40:22.460)
cause we don't want there to be contention over the pin.
Lex Fridman (40:24.380)
So.
Ben Askren (40:25.220)
Just one pin.
Lex Fridman (40:26.040)
Just one pin.
Lex Fridman (40:26.880)
30 minutes, 30 minutes, okay?
Lex Fridman (40:28.380)
If I pin you, you don't get shit, you go home, right?
Ben Askren (40:31.560)
Every person I pin, it goes up by a thousand dollars.
Lex Fridman (40:33.460)
Two thousand, three thousand, four thousand, five thousand
Lex Fridman (40:35.340)
and so on.
Lex Fridman (40:36.580)
If you make it the distance
Lex Fridman (40:37.820)
and I don't pin you and you don't pin me,
Lex Fridman (40:39.300)
I'll pay for your travel and give you 500 bucks, right?
Ben Askren (40:42.100)
Just a consolation prize for showing up.
Lex Fridman (40:44.620)
If you pin me, you get whatever the jackpot is.
Lex Fridman (40:47.220)
Wait, who's adding to the jackpot?
Lex Fridman (40:50.740)
I am, it's my money.
Ben Askren (40:52.740)
My money.
Lex Fridman (40:53.580)
But then what's the incentive to keep winning for you?
Ben Askren (40:55.620)
Cause the jackpot.
Lex Fridman (40:56.460)
Well, cause obviously I would put the content somewhere
Lex Fridman (40:58.260)
where people would watch it, right?
Lex Fridman (40:59.100)
Oh, so you're gonna make money.
Ben Askren (41:00.140)
Yeah, so you'd make money that way.
Lex Fridman (41:01.260)
But it's not exponentially growing, right?
Ben Askren (41:02.700)
It's just going up by like.
Lex Fridman (41:04.380)
Yeah, I really think there's probably only a couple people
Ben Askren (41:06.060)
that could pin me.
Lex Fridman (41:06.900)
So I would either just not choose those people
Ben Askren (41:09.260)
or wait till I get a really large audience
Lex Fridman (41:11.620)
and people get really excited
Lex Fridman (41:12.700)
and in that case, I'm making a lot of money.
Lex Fridman (41:14.180)
So.
Lex Fridman (41:15.020)
What do you think, how many matches would go with you,
Lex Fridman (41:17.700)
like Khaldech shows up?
Ben Askren (41:19.500)
I don't think he could pin me.
Lex Fridman (41:20.860)
Yeah.
Ben Askren (41:21.680)
I mean like, so Jordan Burrows could beat me,
Lex Fridman (41:24.300)
but he can't pin me.
Ben Askren (41:25.140)
He was never a pinner.
Lex Fridman (41:26.340)
Yeah.
Ben Askren (41:27.180)
He ain't gonna pin me.
Lex Fridman (41:28.000)
There's only a few people who have the skill level
Lex Fridman (41:30.100)
to do so, right?
Lex Fridman (41:31.260)
It takes a lot.
Ben Askren (41:32.100)
Cause that was, so pinning was one of my specialties.
Lex Fridman (41:33.500)
I had the fourth most of all time
Lex Fridman (41:35.420)
and I won the pinning award the last two years.
Lex Fridman (41:38.500)
So you think you can be done on points and just pin them?
Ben Askren (41:41.220)
This is actually one of the issues I have with
Lex Fridman (41:43.980)
Jiu Jitsu and the point system and the Eddie Bravo thing.
Ben Askren (41:46.980)
I actually think Eddie Bravo thing is kind of,
Lex Fridman (41:48.260)
people get so mad at me.
Ben Askren (41:49.260)
Sorry, Jiu Jitsu.
Lex Fridman (41:50.260)
I think it's bullshit.
Lex Fridman (41:51.700)
And you want me to tell you why it's bullshit?
Lex Fridman (41:52.820)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (41:53.640)
So like, if Jordan Burrows whoops my ass
Lex Fridman (41:55.120)
and the score is 16 to two, but he can't pin me.
Ben Askren (41:58.460)
Then I get to go to overtime and get a cradle on him.
Lex Fridman (42:00.860)
I'm probably going to pin him.
Lex Fridman (42:02.780)
So I'm better than Jordan Burrows.
Lex Fridman (42:04.700)
Nah, that ain't right.
Ben Askren (42:05.980)
He just whooped my ass.
Lex Fridman (42:07.420)
Do you know what I'm saying?
Ben Askren (42:08.260)
Like if we can go the whole, cause they do submission only.
Lex Fridman (42:11.620)
So if Jordan Burrows beats me up for,
Lex Fridman (42:14.100)
what is it, eight minutes, 10 minutes?
Lex Fridman (42:15.340)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (42:16.180)
What's the length of an Eddie Bravo match?
Lex Fridman (42:18.300)
Yeah, I don't know.
Ben Askren (42:19.140)
Something like that, yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (42:21.100)
So we go 10, me and Jordan Burrows go 10 minutes.
Ben Askren (42:22.540)
He's gonna outscore me significantly.
Lex Fridman (42:24.180)
He will not pin me, I promise you that.
Lex Fridman (42:26.300)
Okay?
Lex Fridman (42:27.220)
So now we go to the overtime.
Ben Askren (42:29.180)
Strong words, but yeah.
Lex Fridman (42:30.420)
He won't, Jordan Burrows is not gonna,
Ben Askren (42:32.060)
he's gonna beat me.
Lex Fridman (42:32.900)
I will give you that.
Ben Askren (42:33.860)
Kyle Dake won't pin you either.
Lex Fridman (42:35.080)
No.
Ben Askren (42:35.920)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (42:36.740)
Okay, they will both beat me on points very badly.
Ben Askren (42:38.860)
Now David Taylor, he might pin me
Lex Fridman (42:40.380)
cause he's a very good pinner also.
Ben Askren (42:42.660)
They'll beat me very badly, they will not pin me.
Lex Fridman (42:45.120)
But now we get to the overtime and we get to pick like,
Ben Askren (42:47.340)
right, so in Eddie Bravo you get a rear naked choke
Lex Fridman (42:50.140)
or an armbar.
Ben Askren (42:51.460)
Okay, give me a cradle, I'll probably pin him.
Lex Fridman (42:53.540)
Okay, a good cradle.
Ben Askren (42:54.900)
You can say cradle or maybe give them,
Lex Fridman (42:56.900)
then they're probably not gonna pin me, right?
Ben Askren (42:58.180)
Maybe, maybe there's a chance, but probably not.
Lex Fridman (43:00.140)
Cause that's just not their specialty.
Lex Fridman (43:01.220)
So for people who don't know, the Eddie Bravo thing
Lex Fridman (43:04.180)
is when it goes into overtime,
Ben Askren (43:07.300)
you get a dominance position on a person
Lex Fridman (43:09.980)
and you get to, yeah, basically put them in a cradle.
Ben Askren (43:12.180)
This is the wrestling equivalent.
Lex Fridman (43:13.140)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (43:13.980)
But you take their back or mount.
Lex Fridman (43:14.820)
Maybe an armbar, yeah, like a wrestling armbar.
Ben Askren (43:17.340)
So, and I don't think that's very fair.
Lex Fridman (43:18.620)
Cause if someone whoops your ass, they whoops your ass.
Lex Fridman (43:20.620)
And then, you know, and so I think the reason why
Lex Fridman (43:22.900)
Jiu Jitsu people accept that rule set is that
Ben Askren (43:25.500)
I don't think, I think they know this, but would admit it.
Lex Fridman (43:27.940)
I don't think their point scoring system adequately rewards
Lex Fridman (43:32.380)
what people value.
Lex Fridman (43:33.820)
So like in wrestling, we value takedowns
Ben Askren (43:36.460)
cause it gets us closer to the pin.
Lex Fridman (43:38.020)
And the most valuable scoring is a near fall,
Ben Askren (43:41.180)
near to the pin, because that's the ultimate goal to sport.
Lex Fridman (43:44.620)
Whereas in Jiu Jitsu, for example,
Ben Askren (43:46.220)
like if I were to get a takedown,
Lex Fridman (43:48.740)
so like if I went to Gordon Ryan and he just didn't pull guard
Ben Askren (43:52.300)
I would probably get the takedown.
Lex Fridman (43:54.060)
Now, if somehow he didn't submit me,
Lex Fridman (43:56.100)
which he probably would, right?
Lex Fridman (43:57.140)
But say he got, got close to like 12 submissions,
Lex Fridman (43:59.260)
but somehow I slipped out of all of them.
Lex Fridman (44:01.660)
Now I went to zero, like that's ridiculous.
Ben Askren (44:03.940)
Like he should very clearly win
Lex Fridman (44:05.180)
cause he almost submitted, you know what I'm saying?
Ben Askren (44:06.700)
Like there, and I, and I realized the difficulty.
Lex Fridman (44:09.820)
I realized the difficulty in rewarding near submissions,
Lex Fridman (44:12.860)
but that is the most valuable thing is getting close
Lex Fridman (44:15.780)
to finishing the match.
Lex Fridman (44:17.020)
And in most competitions, they don't actually reward that.
Lex Fridman (44:20.180)
But okay, so this, this isn't about the sport.
Ben Askren (44:22.460)
This is about the Ben Askren challenge
Lex Fridman (44:24.780)
that we're talking about.
Ben Askren (44:25.620)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (44:26.580)
What, why 30 minutes?
Lex Fridman (44:28.260)
Why not unlimited time?
Lex Fridman (44:31.060)
Why, why go until whenever?
Ben Askren (44:33.540)
Cause then it's just a cardio thing.
Lex Fridman (44:34.860)
Cause at some point then someone would just have to fall
Lex Fridman (44:38.340)
over dead, right?
Lex Fridman (44:39.340)
There's no more skill level involved.
Ben Askren (44:40.780)
It's just who can stand up the longest.
Lex Fridman (44:42.820)
You honestly don't think 30 minutes is a cardio thing too.
Lex Fridman (44:47.580)
How do you think that's actually going to look?
Lex Fridman (44:49.300)
How are they going against you for 30 minutes?
Lex Fridman (44:51.380)
What is that?
Lex Fridman (44:52.220)
So it's going to be kind of boring for the most part.
Lex Fridman (44:56.380)
What position are you going to be stuck in?
Lex Fridman (44:57.820)
Because you, well, you can't, but you can't,
Ben Askren (44:59.500)
you just can't have a gigantic amount of action
Lex Fridman (45:01.480)
for 30 minutes.
Lex Fridman (45:02.320)
So I relate to this because some of my kids,
Lex Fridman (45:04.260)
when I'm teaching them wrestling, they're like, well,
Lex Fridman (45:07.900)
but I can't do that for seven minutes.
Lex Fridman (45:10.580)
And I'm like, well, you know, like say, say if I had you do
Ben Askren (45:13.940)
hang cleans at a relatively heavy weight,
Lex Fridman (45:16.060)
as hard as you could, you're not going to last seven minutes.
Lex Fridman (45:18.380)
You're going to, your pace will slow down, right?
Lex Fridman (45:20.620)
So my thing is like, well, your pace doesn't have to step
Ben Askren (45:22.820)
here because in wrestling, you're competing against someone.
Lex Fridman (45:24.900)
So if you're here at a hundred and you go to 80,
Lex Fridman (45:27.380)
but they go to 70, that's great.
Lex Fridman (45:29.100)
And then you go to 60, but they go to 40,
Lex Fridman (45:31.340)
this is even better, right?
Lex Fridman (45:32.880)
Because the gap is growing.
Lex Fridman (45:34.460)
So we don't necessarily, if we get tired, that's fine.
Lex Fridman (45:36.860)
If they get more tired, that's better.
Lex Fridman (45:38.740)
So I think most people would know that.
Lex Fridman (45:40.440)
So they would kind of slow it down.
Lex Fridman (45:45.020)
But yeah, I think at 30, I mean, I've wrestled 30 minute
Lex Fridman (45:47.820)
goes, I've wrestled hour long goes.
Ben Askren (45:51.380)
You're not going to get so tired,
Lex Fridman (45:52.580)
you're going to fall over in that time period.
Lex Fridman (45:54.020)
But at some point, if it's unlimited,
Lex Fridman (45:56.180)
someone will get so tired or dehydrated
Ben Askren (45:58.420)
that they're just going to freaking fall over.
Lex Fridman (46:00.620)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (46:01.460)
But you think, what about making it exciting and dynamic?
Lex Fridman (46:06.220)
You think the other person is always going to be going
Ben Askren (46:08.760)
for the pin and thereby make it dynamic.
Lex Fridman (46:11.660)
Well, if they're working that hard,
Lex Fridman (46:12.880)
then they might exhaust themselves, right?
Lex Fridman (46:15.020)
And obviously then if you're being that dynamic,
Ben Askren (46:17.980)
then you're adding risk to yourself too,
Lex Fridman (46:20.220)
because you are doing that.
Ben Askren (46:22.660)
Well, I love this.
Lex Fridman (46:23.500)
This is a great idea.
Ben Askren (46:24.460)
Well, I figured I'd rack up like 20 pins against bums,
Lex Fridman (46:29.100)
or not as great people in the beginning.
Lex Fridman (46:30.860)
And then I would start bringing in better people
Lex Fridman (46:32.900)
because they would be enticed by $20,000,
Ben Askren (46:35.860)
the possibility to win.
Lex Fridman (46:36.700)
And not much fanfare, just a camera and just local.
Ben Askren (46:40.020)
That's it, in my wrestling room.
Lex Fridman (46:41.180)
Yeah, yeah, like the Gracie Challenge.
Ben Askren (46:42.820)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (46:43.820)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (46:44.660)
And so then maybe you have like, you know,
Lex Fridman (46:48.100)
for most people, you have someone edit like the 90 seconds
Ben Askren (46:51.100)
of the most fun things that happen.
Lex Fridman (46:52.780)
And then you can watch the entire 30 minutes
Ben Askren (46:54.620)
if you want to.
Lex Fridman (46:55.460)
Yeah.
Ben Askren (46:56.300)
I mean, I think most people,
Lex Fridman (46:57.120)
if they're not really, really elite,
Ben Askren (46:59.020)
I'm probably going to pin them.
Lex Fridman (47:01.460)
If they're not really elite.
Ben Askren (47:04.620)
So, yeah.
Lex Fridman (47:05.580)
But I don't know.
Ben Askren (47:06.660)
That's something I've been thinking about.
Lex Fridman (47:07.640)
This has been like fun for me to think about.
Lex Fridman (47:11.020)
And obviously it plays in my skill sets
Lex Fridman (47:12.400)
because my cardio is good and my pinning is good also.
Ben Askren (47:15.980)
So, yeah.
Lex Fridman (47:17.140)
So, like you said, you weren't very good in your early days
Ben Askren (47:21.860)
until 13, 14.
Lex Fridman (47:23.380)
What was the switch?
Ben Askren (47:24.540)
You started to dominate people in your college career.
Lex Fridman (47:28.060)
You dominated.
Ben Askren (47:28.900)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (47:30.140)
And obviously you stopped losing at some point.
Ben Askren (47:33.580)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (47:34.420)
So, well, I would say,
Lex Fridman (47:36.460)
so even when I didn't lose in collegiate competition,
Lex Fridman (47:38.060)
I would go in the summers and try to make the world team.
Lex Fridman (47:40.340)
So, I would lose some, not a lot, right?
Lex Fridman (47:42.980)
Minimally.
Ben Askren (47:44.820)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (47:45.660)
So, when I'm five, I start playing all sports.
Lex Fridman (47:47.540)
Like I know you moved to America at what age?
Lex Fridman (47:51.500)
13.
Ben Askren (47:52.340)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (47:53.160)
So, at least I don't know what it was for you,
Lex Fridman (47:55.100)
but in America at my age,
Lex Fridman (47:57.600)
you usually play like a sport every season, right?
Ben Askren (48:00.180)
So, that's what I did in the beginning.
Lex Fridman (48:02.600)
I had minimal success in wrestling.
Ben Askren (48:04.620)
I was kind of chunky.
Lex Fridman (48:06.180)
And then in fifth grade, I don't know.
Lex Fridman (48:09.020)
And I can't tell you, I wanted to be better.
Lex Fridman (48:11.380)
And I told my parents, and this is funny,
Ben Askren (48:12.980)
because now I look at other 11 year olds
Lex Fridman (48:14.260)
and very few of them are this mature.
Lex Fridman (48:15.900)
And I actually think emotional maturity
Lex Fridman (48:17.300)
is kind of one of the key indicators
Ben Askren (48:18.540)
of how longterm successful someone's gonna be.
Lex Fridman (48:21.020)
And at age 11, I said, I don't wanna play baseball.
Ben Askren (48:23.100)
I like baseball, but I don't wanna play baseball
Lex Fridman (48:24.580)
because I wanna wrestle more
Ben Askren (48:25.420)
because I wanna get better at wrestling.
Lex Fridman (48:26.860)
So, at age 11, I quit baseball
Lex Fridman (48:28.460)
so I could wrestle in a club for March, April, and May.
Lex Fridman (48:30.940)
Because that was all that existed at that point in time.
Ben Askren (48:33.300)
You couldn't wrestle in June, July,
Lex Fridman (48:34.540)
or any of those other months.
Lex Fridman (48:37.260)
What was that desire to get better?
Lex Fridman (48:38.780)
What is that?
Ben Askren (48:39.620)
So, it's not about winning.
Lex Fridman (48:40.460)
I don't know where it came from.
Ben Askren (48:41.380)
I just wanted to get better.
Lex Fridman (48:43.220)
I wanna get better.
Ben Askren (48:44.060)
I wanna be good at this.
Lex Fridman (48:44.900)
I wanna be really good at this.
Ben Askren (48:45.740)
So, when you're looking at kids now as a coach,
Lex Fridman (48:47.940)
you're looking for that.
Ben Askren (48:49.100)
Somebody who says, you know what, I kinda suck.
Lex Fridman (48:51.140)
I wanna get better.
Lex Fridman (48:51.980)
And I wanna try to also inspire that.
Lex Fridman (48:54.340)
I mean, honestly, I think as a coach,
Ben Askren (48:58.340)
that's probably my biggest job is to get a kid
Lex Fridman (49:01.800)
and get them to believe I can do this.
Ben Askren (49:03.940)
Because if I can do this, well, I can do that.
Lex Fridman (49:07.340)
I can do that too, right?
Lex Fridman (49:08.980)
And there's so many kids who, unfortunately,
Lex Fridman (49:10.700)
have shitty parents or bad teachers
Lex Fridman (49:14.140)
that tell them, you suck, you can't be anything, right?
Lex Fridman (49:16.740)
So, I think my biggest goal as a coach
Ben Askren (49:18.740)
is to get someone to believe they can do it.
Lex Fridman (49:20.260)
So, actually, some of the ones that believe they can do it,
Ben Askren (49:22.340)
they're the most fun,
Lex Fridman (49:23.220)
but they're not the ones who need it the most, right?
Ben Askren (49:25.420)
The ones who think they can
Lex Fridman (49:26.380)
are the ones that need me the most.
Ben Askren (49:28.420)
Because they need someone to, let's go.
Lex Fridman (49:31.340)
So, I don't know what inspired me.
Ben Askren (49:33.400)
I'm not sure.
Lex Fridman (49:34.240)
At age 11, fifth grade, I quit.
Ben Askren (49:37.900)
So, then I started having more success
Lex Fridman (49:40.620)
where I'm like, say, placing at the state tournament.
Ben Askren (49:43.820)
In high school.
Lex Fridman (49:44.860)
So, you're right.
Ben Askren (49:46.020)
So, sixth grade, I placed at the state,
Lex Fridman (49:48.140)
the local youth state tournament, you know?
Ben Askren (49:49.620)
So, I'm having more success.
Lex Fridman (49:51.940)
Seventh grade was the first year
Ben Askren (49:52.860)
I won the youth state tournament.
Lex Fridman (49:55.120)
So, I'm getting better.
Ben Askren (49:56.100)
Eighth grade, I actually feel like I got pretty good,
Lex Fridman (49:58.140)
but when I went to the national tournaments,
Ben Askren (50:00.100)
I was still having really minimal success.
Lex Fridman (50:02.200)
My freshman year, I decided to quit football.
Ben Askren (50:04.880)
Same reason.
Lex Fridman (50:05.720)
It's like, well, I need to put more time into this.
Ben Askren (50:06.920)
My parents, my dad luckily got a mat in my basement.
Lex Fridman (50:10.040)
So, we have a year round club,
Lex Fridman (50:12.720)
and our impetus was that we didn't have this opportunity
Lex Fridman (50:15.080)
to go to a club year round.
Ben Askren (50:16.860)
So, we had a mat in my basement.
Lex Fridman (50:18.040)
I had to go find, hey, you wanna come wrestle?
Ben Askren (50:21.520)
Yeah, to find partners for myself.
Lex Fridman (50:22.840)
What'd you do?
Lex Fridman (50:23.680)
Did you drill?
Lex Fridman (50:24.500)
Did you live wrestle?
Lex Fridman (50:25.400)
What'd you do in that basement?
Lex Fridman (50:26.720)
So, actually, I think, you'll enjoy this.
Ben Askren (50:28.600)
I think the start of my scrambling was
Lex Fridman (50:33.160)
kind of based around that.
Ben Askren (50:34.440)
So, I got kind of,
Lex Fridman (50:36.320)
I think it's probably my freshman sophomore.
Lex Fridman (50:37.680)
I'm kind of, the years are a little fuzzy, right?
Lex Fridman (50:39.920)
It's been a while.
Lex Fridman (50:41.360)
But probably my freshman, sophomore, junior year,
Lex Fridman (50:45.160)
I found two kids who were really consistent
Ben Askren (50:47.580)
who would come out, like you would come out on,
Lex Fridman (50:49.080)
he would come out on Tuesday,
Lex Fridman (50:50.000)
and this dude would come out on a Wednesday, right?
Lex Fridman (50:51.640)
And they would come every week,
Lex Fridman (50:52.640)
and they were really consistent partners for me
Lex Fridman (50:55.040)
to have in the summer.
Lex Fridman (50:56.340)
But they weren't nearly as good as me.
Lex Fridman (50:57.960)
They were way worse.
Ben Askren (50:58.880)
So, it's like, okay, how do I,
Lex Fridman (51:02.320)
how do I make this kind of like fun and compelling
Lex Fridman (51:04.940)
for them to come back?
Lex Fridman (51:05.780)
Because if I just whoop their ass,
Lex Fridman (51:07.040)
they're not gonna come back, you know?
Lex Fridman (51:08.920)
So, it was like, I would let them get as close as they could,
Lex Fridman (51:11.320)
and I thought they could do a takedown
Lex Fridman (51:13.480)
before not getting it,
Lex Fridman (51:14.640)
and then try to like escape or get out.
Lex Fridman (51:16.960)
So, obviously, if I let them get really close,
Lex Fridman (51:18.380)
sometimes they get it, you know?
Lex Fridman (51:19.640)
So, they're enjoying it.
Lex Fridman (51:21.480)
I don't know if they ever knew I was doing this, right?
Lex Fridman (51:23.560)
I have no idea.
Lex Fridman (51:25.320)
And that was kind of like the start,
Lex Fridman (51:26.640)
because I had to figure my way out of bad positions,
Ben Askren (51:28.920)
because I had to try to make it entertaining for them,
Lex Fridman (51:32.280)
where they still got something out of it,
Lex Fridman (51:33.480)
and they wanted to come back the next week.
Lex Fridman (51:34.920)
And I also got something out of it.
Ben Askren (51:36.440)
Yeah, I love this, yeah.
Lex Fridman (51:37.720)
Because that relationship is so important,
Ben Askren (51:39.800)
with that, like, that,
Lex Fridman (51:42.360)
I've had a few drilling partners,
Ben Askren (51:44.480)
training partners that were really important to my life,
Lex Fridman (51:47.920)
and I always wonder why it's difficult,
Lex Fridman (51:50.680)
why it's so difficult to find them.
Lex Fridman (51:52.520)
Yeah.
Ben Askren (51:53.360)
Like I, if anyone's listening to this,
Lex Fridman (51:55.720)
I'm looking for a judo person in the Austin area, actually.
Ben Askren (51:58.840)
Getting the reps with people is hard.
Lex Fridman (52:01.000)
Even in jiu jitsu, that,
Ben Askren (52:04.480)
it's just like, people want to do the fun stuff.
Lex Fridman (52:06.520)
They don't want to really put in the work,
Lex Fridman (52:08.440)
and it takes a certain kind of personality.
Lex Fridman (52:10.400)
And then you also have to make it fun for the other person,
Ben Askren (52:13.920)
just like you said.
Lex Fridman (52:14.760)
If there's a skill mismatch,
Lex Fridman (52:16.000)
but also if you have an interest mismatch,
Lex Fridman (52:19.620)
in terms of the amount of drilling you want to do,
Ben Askren (52:22.360)
all that kind of stuff,
Lex Fridman (52:23.180)
you have to figure out ways to make it fun.
Ben Askren (52:24.960)
It's tricky.
Lex Fridman (52:25.860)
So you did.
Ben Askren (52:26.700)
So, yeah, I think I did that,
Lex Fridman (52:28.160)
and no one told me.
Ben Askren (52:29.920)
As I get some, I get frustrated,
Lex Fridman (52:31.400)
because now we have, just in my academy,
Ben Askren (52:33.280)
we probably have 50, 60 high school kids only
Lex Fridman (52:36.440)
that are year round.
Ben Askren (52:37.260)
They're year round.
Lex Fridman (52:38.200)
Maybe they're not consistent in the summer or whatever,
Lex Fridman (52:39.880)
but they're there.
Lex Fridman (52:40.720)
So when they don't have a great partner,
Ben Askren (52:42.160)
they start whining,
Lex Fridman (52:43.000)
and it's like, you little bitches, like, you know.
Ben Askren (52:45.840)
Some days they get really mad about it,
Lex Fridman (52:47.040)
because it's like, I had no partners.
Ben Askren (52:48.240)
I had to find freaking two partners to come twice a week.
Lex Fridman (52:50.680)
You guys, there's still 22 people in the room.
Ben Askren (52:53.040)
I'm sorry there's not the perfect partner for you,
Lex Fridman (52:55.240)
but like, go work out with that dude.
Ben Askren (52:56.720)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (52:57.560)
You know?
Ben Askren (52:58.380)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (52:59.220)
So what was the switch, the change?
Lex Fridman (53:00.160)
Was it gradual, or?
Lex Fridman (53:01.680)
Gradual.
Ben Askren (53:02.520)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (53:03.340)
Yeah, so I was in ninth grade.
Ben Askren (53:04.280)
I quit football, because I wanted to get really serious.
Lex Fridman (53:07.360)
What position in football were you in?
Ben Askren (53:08.200)
I was actually a nose tackle.
Lex Fridman (53:10.440)
But at that point, so, okay,
Lex Fridman (53:11.500)
so I was also, the other thing I kind of left out here,
Lex Fridman (53:13.460)
I was really fat growing up.
Ben Askren (53:15.680)
In sixth grade, I also decided, okay, I'm really fat,
Lex Fridman (53:19.320)
and if I want to be a competitive wrestler,
Ben Askren (53:20.400)
I shouldn't be fat, because weight matters.
Lex Fridman (53:21.940)
I went from 130 pounds to 100 pounds in sixth grade.
Ben Askren (53:25.280)
Nice.
Lex Fridman (53:26.120)
So by the time I was a freshman, I was 119.
Lex Fridman (53:28.440)
So I still wasn't as heavy as I was in sixth grade.
Lex Fridman (53:30.820)
So I was pretty small, too,
Lex Fridman (53:31.760)
but I was also slow, unfortunately.
Lex Fridman (53:33.800)
So they put me a nose tackle.
Ben Askren (53:35.640)
I liked the competitiveness, so I was decent at it.
Lex Fridman (53:39.440)
So that's where you wrestled, 119?
Ben Askren (53:41.160)
My freshman year, yeah.
Lex Fridman (53:42.540)
Mm hmm.
Lex Fridman (53:43.720)
So yeah, so then I started having a lot of success
Lex Fridman (53:46.020)
state wise, but not nationally.
Ben Askren (53:48.920)
It's my national success,
Lex Fridman (53:50.200)
didn't come to my junior year in high school.
Lex Fridman (53:52.920)
But yeah, I was grinding and getting better the whole time.
Lex Fridman (53:55.080)
And then senior year, I started having a lot of success
Ben Askren (53:57.000)
nationally, and I got recruited.
Lex Fridman (53:59.360)
But then even when my freshman year of college,
Ben Askren (54:01.760)
this is where I loved competing, I would go every weekend.
Lex Fridman (54:04.200)
Because I knew, if you take the emotions out of competition,
Ben Askren (54:08.940)
all it is is seeing your failures, acknowledging them,
Lex Fridman (54:12.120)
and then figuring out what you need to work on.
Ben Askren (54:14.360)
If we take all the emotion out of it, that's what it is.
Lex Fridman (54:16.720)
So I wrestled 50 matches as a redshirt freshman,
Ben Askren (54:19.040)
which is incredibly rare.
Lex Fridman (54:20.360)
I had 10 losses.
Lex Fridman (54:21.720)
So it's not, and like to not so great guys, you know?
Lex Fridman (54:24.920)
So like my skill level still at that point
Ben Askren (54:27.320)
was not that great.
Lex Fridman (54:28.160)
And then the next year I came out
Lex Fridman (54:29.200)
and I made it into the finals.
Lex Fridman (54:30.200)
So my, I made a gigantic jump in that redshirt year
Ben Askren (54:33.960)
to the real freshman year.
Lex Fridman (54:35.920)
So a few questions.
Ben Askren (54:37.840)
Where did the funk style of wrestling,
Lex Fridman (54:40.880)
the creative stuff get developed, at which stage?
Lex Fridman (54:44.440)
So I think like looking retroactively,
Lex Fridman (54:47.040)
there was no intention to start when I was in high school
Ben Askren (54:49.480)
with those kids, but I think that's kind of like,
Lex Fridman (54:51.940)
well, what was happening, right?
Lex Fridman (54:54.680)
So what I would really say is,
Lex Fridman (54:56.380)
I had one influential coach my redshirt year of college
Ben Askren (54:59.200)
named Mike Ironman, great guy.
Lex Fridman (55:01.800)
But then the second thing was, it was just out of necessity.
Ben Askren (55:04.260)
I had this burning desire to be the best.
Lex Fridman (55:06.440)
And when I was getting my ass kicked every day in the room,
Ben Askren (55:09.160)
cause we had, you know, Tyron was there,
Lex Fridman (55:10.560)
we had All American 157, we had All American 184.
Lex Fridman (55:13.360)
So I wasn't having a ton of success.
Lex Fridman (55:15.980)
And very quickly I realized
Ben Askren (55:18.080)
from like a more traditional athletic perspective,
Lex Fridman (55:21.440)
strength and speed, I couldn't keep up with anyone.
Ben Askren (55:23.440)
I was way worse.
Lex Fridman (55:25.060)
So it's like, okay, fuck, how do I, how do I do this?
Ben Askren (55:27.220)
You know, I want to do this.
Lex Fridman (55:28.240)
How do I do this?
Lex Fridman (55:29.640)
There's gotta be a way, you know?
Lex Fridman (55:31.340)
So Mike Ironman showed me a couple of things,
Lex Fridman (55:33.420)
but then it was just like this creative expansion
Lex Fridman (55:36.480)
for the next, you know, say three to five years.
Lex Fridman (55:39.800)
And then even now it's like, I don't know,
Lex Fridman (55:42.600)
there's something, and maybe you feel this way about judo,
Ben Askren (55:44.640)
or there's something that's like fun
Lex Fridman (55:47.440)
about the way the body moves and works
Lex Fridman (55:49.720)
and exploring something new and thinking about,
Lex Fridman (55:52.680)
hey, wrestling's been happening at a relatively high level
Ben Askren (55:55.280)
for we'll say 80 to 90 years in America.
Lex Fridman (55:59.120)
And there's still new things being developed.
Lex Fridman (56:01.360)
And so when you see something new,
Lex Fridman (56:02.480)
you're like, oh damn, like, that's great.
Ben Askren (56:03.880)
Or like Jason Knowles may have to win Dixie.
Lex Fridman (56:05.720)
I'm like, how did I not think of that shit?
Lex Fridman (56:07.400)
Like, why did I think of that?
Lex Fridman (56:08.320)
So easy, I should have thought of that, you know?
Lex Fridman (56:11.240)
So there's this like obsession with the sport of wrestling
Lex Fridman (56:14.880)
and positions where I actually think sometimes,
Ben Askren (56:19.640)
thank God we didn't have smartphones
Lex Fridman (56:20.760)
because I may have been distracted by my smartphone.
Ben Askren (56:23.360)
Maybe I wouldn't have been because I was so obsessed,
Lex Fridman (56:24.800)
but maybe, but you know, some days I had,
Ben Askren (56:27.360)
couldn't finish the single leg on a specific person
Lex Fridman (56:29.620)
or maybe they were finishing on me and it was like,
Ben Askren (56:32.680)
go home and I was just fucking obsessed
Lex Fridman (56:34.340)
about that one position.
Lex Fridman (56:35.880)
Like, okay, what am I missing here?
Lex Fridman (56:38.760)
And not just accepting like that whatever the coach says
Lex Fridman (56:41.560)
is the answer, but like, what am I missing?
Lex Fridman (56:43.880)
What ways can my body move
Lex Fridman (56:45.640)
that no one's told me it can move yet?
Lex Fridman (56:48.440)
Where can my arms go, right?
Lex Fridman (56:50.280)
Where can I do all these things?
Lex Fridman (56:51.360)
And so I would just obsess about these things.
Lex Fridman (56:53.800)
And then, you know, sometimes you come in the next day
Lex Fridman (56:55.480)
and you say, oh, well maybe this, you know,
Lex Fridman (56:57.700)
and maybe it works, maybe it doesn't,
Lex Fridman (56:59.360)
maybe it works twice and it doesn't work the next time.
Lex Fridman (57:01.040)
And so you kind of like have this creative process
Lex Fridman (57:03.160)
and it's like, you know, there's a lot of things
Ben Askren (57:05.000)
that are on the cutting room floor
Lex Fridman (57:06.000)
that never made it to the light
Ben Askren (57:07.660)
because you thought they'd be good
Lex Fridman (57:08.920)
and they failed and they sucked.
Lex Fridman (57:10.360)
And then, you know, to the point where,
Lex Fridman (57:11.720)
like my senior year,
Ben Askren (57:14.920)
I got to this point where the people,
Lex Fridman (57:16.760)
then they were just figures.
Ben Askren (57:18.260)
Figures would wrestle in my head
Lex Fridman (57:19.860)
about positions I was thinking about.
Ben Askren (57:21.280)
I wouldn't tell them what to do.
Lex Fridman (57:22.460)
They would just, they'd just go in my head.
Lex Fridman (57:24.460)
And then like, oh fuck, wait, that's it.
Lex Fridman (57:27.600)
That's it, like that just happened.
Ben Askren (57:29.040)
That's the move and then I'd go try to practice
Lex Fridman (57:30.640)
and sure enough, boom, that's the move.
Ben Askren (57:32.680)
That's exactly what you have Alpha Zero playing,
Lex Fridman (57:34.700)
learning chess.
Ben Askren (57:35.540)
You have, it's called Self Plays.
Lex Fridman (57:38.880)
You have, did the figures have like a clear?
Ben Askren (57:43.400)
No faces, they were just like.
Lex Fridman (57:45.140)
Did they have a human form
Lex Fridman (57:46.600)
or is it just like stick figures essentially?
Lex Fridman (57:48.720)
Yeah, it was not like humans.
Ben Askren (57:50.920)
It was more like stick figures.
Lex Fridman (57:51.880)
They weren't stick figures exactly like they were.
Lex Fridman (57:55.000)
They had some volume?
Lex Fridman (57:56.200)
Yeah, it was like a gray person
Lex Fridman (57:58.040)
and they had, you know, three dimensions essentially
Lex Fridman (58:00.560)
so I had to see how the things moved and yeah.
Ben Askren (58:05.880)
I mean, this is exactly what OpenAI and DeepMind at Google
Lex Fridman (58:09.720)
are, I don't know if you've seen,
Lex Fridman (58:12.540)
but there's something called reinforcement learning
Lex Fridman (58:14.440)
in artificial intelligence where you have like,
Ben Askren (58:17.200)
they've done it for like sumo wrestling.
Lex Fridman (58:19.180)
You have like, you have these two stick figures
Ben Askren (58:23.080)
that don't even know how to get up at first
Lex Fridman (58:26.200)
and they figure out how to stand on their two feet
Lex Fridman (58:28.680)
and then they figure out how to push the other person
Lex Fridman (58:31.160)
off of the pedestal.
Ben Askren (58:33.440)
Wait, so, but what about like when you look
Lex Fridman (58:36.040)
at the Boston Dynamics, sometimes they have trouble
Ben Askren (58:38.840)
with like jumping and balancing and the other stuff.
Lex Fridman (58:41.560)
So are they doing that same program or no?
Ben Askren (58:43.720)
No, no, no, no.
Lex Fridman (58:44.560)
This, everything Boston Dynamics is doing is hard coded
Lex Fridman (58:50.420)
so it's not learning the,
Lex Fridman (58:55.160)
all of the sophisticated movements and strategies
Ben Askren (58:57.440)
like high level strategies and movement,
Lex Fridman (58:58.960)
that's all something that Boston Dynamics does not do
Lex Fridman (59:02.040)
and if it does it, like the parkour stuff,
Lex Fridman (59:03.880)
that's all hard coded in.
Ben Askren (59:05.040)
Oh, interesting.
Lex Fridman (59:06.440)
People like project and think like these robots
Ben Askren (59:10.240)
have like discovered like how to move
Lex Fridman (59:13.020)
in sophisticated ways they haven't.
Ben Askren (59:14.720)
Well, that's what, when you and John were talking
Lex Fridman (59:17.200)
about the grappling robot.
Ben Askren (59:19.720)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (59:20.540)
I mean, the one thing I was obsessing about in my head
Lex Fridman (59:24.060)
is that with the chess, right?
Lex Fridman (59:26.960)
If a chess piece moves, right?
Lex Fridman (59:28.660)
The horse can move like an L, right?
Lex Fridman (59:31.420)
It can only move like an L.
Ben Askren (59:32.600)
It doesn't matter if it moves at two meters per second
Lex Fridman (59:35.120)
or seven meters per second.
Lex Fridman (59:36.720)
It can only move there, right?
Lex Fridman (59:38.720)
Whereas like a single leg, I can shoot a single leg
Ben Askren (59:41.520)
with many different velocities.
Lex Fridman (59:43.680)
I can shoot at different angles.
Lex Fridman (59:45.260)
I can shoot with different amounts of force, right?
Lex Fridman (59:48.160)
I can shoot with my head up versus my head,
Lex Fridman (59:50.200)
I mean, right?
Lex Fridman (59:51.020)
All these things are gonna matter.
Ben Askren (59:52.200)
We're talking about a human being defending the single leg.
Lex Fridman (59:55.400)
All of those things are gonna matter
Lex Fridman (59:56.900)
and that's where human beings who wrestle
🔗 相关节目