Tom Brands: Iowa Wrestling
体育与武术音乐与艺术历史与文明心理与人性生物与进化
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"and I'll get an email or a letter that says, you said blind people can't play baseball and blah, blah."
— Tom Brands （44:21.920）
🎙️ 完整对话（1135 条）
Lex Fridman (00:00.000)
The following is a conversation with Tom Brands,
Lex Fridman (00:02.640)
Olympic champion and world champion in freestyle wrestling,
Lex Fridman (00:06.640)
three time NCAA wrestling champion at University of Iowa,
Lex Fridman (00:10.320)
and one of the greatest coaches in the history of wrestling,
Lex Fridman (00:14.080)
leading the University of Iowa Hawkeyes for 15 years,
Tom Brands (00:18.160)
including in 2021 winning the national championships,
Lex Fridman (00:22.960)
and getting a coach of the year award, his third.
Tom Brands (00:26.640)
He's known for his intensity, focus, and mental toughness,
Lex Fridman (00:30.320)
embodying both as a wrestler and coach,
Tom Brands (00:33.120)
the culture and spirit of Iowa wrestling.
Lex Fridman (00:36.480)
We recorded this conversation almost exactly three years ago
Tom Brands (00:39.520)
after I attended the University of Iowa
Lex Fridman (00:42.400)
versus Iowa State wrestling meet
Tom Brands (00:45.280)
in the historic Carver Hawkeye Arena.
Lex Fridman (00:48.400)
Tom graciously invited me to his home,
Tom Brands (00:50.880)
where his family, a couple of friends, and me
Lex Fridman (00:54.160)
spent several hours chatting about wrestling and life.
Tom Brands (00:57.680)
We recorded this brief podcast conversation that evening,
Lex Fridman (01:01.520)
and I wasn't sure where, how, or whether we'll publish it.
Lex Fridman (01:06.080)
But returning to it now three years later,
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I realized just how meaningful that evening was for me.
Lex Fridman (01:12.000)
And even though I was nervous,
Lex Fridman (01:14.320)
didn't even put on my jacket,
Tom Brands (01:16.400)
it's a moment I would love to share with others.
Lex Fridman (01:19.360)
The mix of intensity and heartfelt kindness
Tom Brands (01:21.840)
from Tom and his family
Lex Fridman (01:23.440)
made me want to stay in Iowa forever.
Tom Brands (01:26.080)
I think I will return there soon enough
Lex Fridman (01:28.480)
because of the amazing people there,
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and because Iowa is still, in many ways,
Lex Fridman (01:34.160)
the heart of the indomitable spirit of American wrestling,
Tom Brands (01:37.920)
a sport I love and to which I'm deeply grateful
Lex Fridman (01:41.200)
for humbling me early in life
Lex Fridman (01:43.200)
and helping me and many others
Lex Fridman (01:46.080)
build character through hard work.
Tom Brands (01:49.840)
This is the Lex Friedman podcast.
Lex Fridman (01:52.000)
To support it, please check out our sponsors
Tom Brands (01:54.240)
in the description.
Lex Fridman (01:55.360)
And now here's my conversation with Tom Brands.
Lex Fridman (02:00.240)
What's the best motivator for you or for your athletes?
Lex Fridman (02:04.160)
Hatred of losing or love of winning?
Tom Brands (02:08.160)
For me personally, it was definitely the hatred of losing.
Lex Fridman (02:10.560)
I was not a guy that was about pageantry.
Tom Brands (02:13.040)
I was not a guy that was about the parade.
Lex Fridman (02:18.240)
When I wrestled in Atlanta,
Tom Brands (02:20.240)
I rented a three cylinder Geo with my wife,
Lex Fridman (02:22.800)
drove home and mowed the lawn
Tom Brands (02:23.920)
because it hadn't been mowed for a month.
Lex Fridman (02:25.920)
And I remember one of our neighbors driving by
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and they were like, they did a double take,
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like, well, that's the, I thought he was in Atlanta.
Tom Brands (02:31.920)
Well, I was in Atlanta yesterday.
Lex Fridman (02:33.120)
I just sat on the stand
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and got a gold medal put around my neck.
Lex Fridman (02:36.480)
That's how I was.
Tom Brands (02:37.920)
That doesn't mean that it was the right approach
Lex Fridman (02:40.160)
or the wrong approach.
Tom Brands (02:41.120)
It's just what worked for me.
Lex Fridman (02:42.640)
But when you were a kid, you and Terry,
Tom Brands (02:44.560)
you dreamed about winning that Olympic gold.
Lex Fridman (02:46.800)
Yeah, so.
Tom Brands (02:47.360)
That's about winning then.
Lex Fridman (02:48.400)
So there is the lure of winning,
Lex Fridman (02:52.000)
but what drives you is that,
Lex Fridman (02:55.520)
you know, as you move forward,
Tom Brands (02:56.720)
there's just no reason that you have to settle
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for anything but being the best.
Lex Fridman (03:03.120)
And if, it just, it would get to you to the point where
Lex Fridman (03:08.000)
that's not gonna happen to me again.
Lex Fridman (03:10.640)
So what, the thing that keeps you up at night
Lex Fridman (03:13.120)
is the losses and that's not,
Tom Brands (03:15.360)
that's not gonna happen to me again.
Lex Fridman (03:17.120)
That's the thought that keeps you up at night.
Tom Brands (03:18.800)
That's the thought that drives you in your training.
Lex Fridman (03:21.440)
That's why you do, you know, nine ropes
Tom Brands (03:24.480)
when Gable says do three ropes and buddy pushups
Lex Fridman (03:27.520)
and you're out of here and you do nine
Tom Brands (03:29.360)
or you do them until you can't do any more.
Lex Fridman (03:32.000)
And it's a very rare ingredient.
Tom Brands (03:34.320)
The older I get, the more rare I find it is.
Lex Fridman (03:37.680)
The ingredient of loss feeding,
Lex Fridman (03:41.680)
feeding that, the drive of hard training?
Lex Fridman (03:44.240)
Maybe that because everybody's so worried
Tom Brands (03:46.240)
about the negative whatever
Lex Fridman (03:48.320)
and you're putting too much pressure on yourself.
Lex Fridman (03:50.480)
So maybe that.
Lex Fridman (03:51.600)
But what I meant was it's when a coach says,
Tom Brands (03:53.760)
okay, finish with four ropes and, you know,
Lex Fridman (03:56.960)
buddy pushups and four way neck, you know,
Tom Brands (04:00.240)
I would do 12 or 10.
Lex Fridman (04:02.640)
That's rare.
Tom Brands (04:03.760)
It's no longer about what the coach says.
Lex Fridman (04:05.280)
It's your own demons that you're trying to exercise out.
Lex Fridman (04:09.680)
What's the few losses you've had in your life?
Lex Fridman (04:12.640)
Are all of them just melt together
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or is there something that stands out in your mind?
Lex Fridman (04:18.160)
I'm a guy that remembers my career that well.
Tom Brands (04:23.680)
I know that I am judged on a very small portion of my life
Lex Fridman (04:29.680)
and that's minutes of wrestling matches,
Tom Brands (04:32.320)
you know, a lot of winning,
Lex Fridman (04:33.920)
but there's some losing in there too.
Tom Brands (04:35.440)
And, you know, people think they know you because of that
Lex Fridman (04:38.640)
and they think they know you
Tom Brands (04:40.480)
because they see you in a press conference.
Lex Fridman (04:42.080)
But, you know, to go back to the original question,
Tom Brands (04:47.440)
you know, I don't know how to answer that.
Lex Fridman (04:49.040)
So there's no losses that just that eat at you still.
Tom Brands (04:53.440)
There's opponents that I have learned a great deal from.
Lex Fridman (04:57.280)
I mean, my loss to John Smith in 1991,
Tom Brands (05:02.880)
US Open was something that I learned a lot about.
Lex Fridman (05:08.400)
I learned a lot about positioning.
Tom Brands (05:09.680)
I learned a lot about the importance of par terre.
Lex Fridman (05:13.280)
You know, in a certain kind of crazy way,
Tom Brands (05:16.240)
I learned that I could go with the best guy in the world,
Lex Fridman (05:18.240)
even though it was 14 to four.
Lex Fridman (05:20.400)
And this is when Tech Falls were 15 or 12 points.
Lex Fridman (05:22.720)
I didn't get Tech Fall and that wasn't a badge of honor for me.
Lex Fridman (05:25.920)
But I knew I could go with him
Lex Fridman (05:27.280)
because it was one point takedowns.
Tom Brands (05:28.560)
I scored four takedowns on him.
Lex Fridman (05:30.880)
And I learned that I had to move my feet
Lex Fridman (05:34.480)
and I learned what it meant to move your feet constantly.
Lex Fridman (05:37.680)
And there's no break.
Tom Brands (05:39.520)
John Smith is a very, very intense competitor
Lex Fridman (05:43.440)
that people know that now, six time world Olympic champion.
Lex Fridman (05:47.120)
And I felt that firsthand.
Lex Fridman (05:49.520)
But I did not go in there taking a back seat,
Tom Brands (05:53.440)
even though the score was very lopsided.
Lex Fridman (05:57.360)
But you knew you could stand with the best of the world.
Tom Brands (05:59.520)
I knew that this is what this is about.
Lex Fridman (06:03.040)
And you know what, you move your feet
Lex Fridman (06:04.640)
and you don't give up a lace that's so damn tight
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that you can't feel your calf muscle.
Lex Fridman (06:11.360)
And I had to get ready for the consolation
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side of the bracket,
Tom Brands (06:13.680)
because I believe that was in the semis.
Lex Fridman (06:17.040)
And you just learn from that.
Lex Fridman (06:18.640)
And it was better than learning from a win
Lex Fridman (06:23.520)
over a second ranked senior level guy
Tom Brands (06:26.320)
when you're a junior in college.
Lex Fridman (06:28.480)
You're wrestling the best on a stage.
Lex Fridman (06:31.040)
So if you look back, you probably spent tens of thousands
Lex Fridman (06:34.960)
of hours on the mat, spilled sweat, blood,
Tom Brands (06:39.280)
even tears, maybe, maybe a few times.
Lex Fridman (06:41.600)
So technically or philosophically,
Lex Fridman (06:43.760)
how would you do any of those hours differently?
Lex Fridman (06:45.840)
Just looking back at the tens of thousands of hours.
Tom Brands (06:49.200)
I would be more, probably in my older age,
Lex Fridman (06:53.440)
I probably would have been more relaxed in my training
Lex Fridman (06:56.800)
and probably would have went another cycle.
Lex Fridman (06:59.040)
If I could do it over again, in 96,
Tom Brands (07:02.640)
I really thought that when Gable retired,
Lex Fridman (07:05.680)
that I would be the next guy in line.
Lex Fridman (07:07.040)
And I was wrong and that was immature of me.
Lex Fridman (07:09.600)
In terms of the coach.
Tom Brands (07:10.720)
In terms of the coach, yes.
Lex Fridman (07:12.480)
And I knew that Gable was close.
Tom Brands (07:14.240)
I mean, I didn't know when, but it just so happens,
Lex Fridman (07:16.480)
you know, 97 was his record breaking year
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and then he retired, but I didn't know how close he was.
Lex Fridman (07:21.760)
But I knew that he had, you know,
Tom Brands (07:23.760)
he went down with a bad hip injury.
Lex Fridman (07:25.760)
And so, you know, you're just, you're not gonna.
Lex Fridman (07:29.920)
So what does a relaxed Tom Brands look like?
Lex Fridman (07:33.280)
You're saying you would have been a little more relaxed.
Tom Brands (07:35.680)
More like where, you know what, I was pretty dang good
Lex Fridman (07:39.040)
and I was getting better every day,
Lex Fridman (07:41.440)
but maybe doing a little bit different, a little bit smarter.
Lex Fridman (07:43.760)
And Terry actually did that going through 2000.
Tom Brands (07:48.720)
He had to do it.
Lex Fridman (07:49.680)
And he would have been in the, you know,
Tom Brands (07:53.280)
the funny farm, let alone the, you know, the physical farm,
Lex Fridman (07:58.560)
whatever you want to say, mentally and physically beat up.
Lex Fridman (08:02.000)
But he had to learn to less is more type approach.
Lex Fridman (08:07.840)
And how it came around was, is, you know,
Tom Brands (08:12.400)
you work hard at feeling good.
Lex Fridman (08:14.720)
You work hard in your recovery.
Lex Fridman (08:16.720)
So even when you're not wrestling hard in that wrestling room,
Lex Fridman (08:21.440)
and looking for the toughest partner to go,
Tom Brands (08:25.760)
you're still working hard in your recovery.
Lex Fridman (08:28.720)
And massage could be that.
Tom Brands (08:31.040)
Stretching could be that.
Lex Fridman (08:33.440)
Things like that, that are more fluffy.
Lex Fridman (08:37.200)
And that's something you weren't as good at?
Lex Fridman (08:39.520)
The recovery aspect of this?
Tom Brands (08:41.120)
Never, never.
Lex Fridman (08:42.960)
There's not a place for it with young people.
Tom Brands (08:45.440)
Because in my opinion, there's so much development to have,
Lex Fridman (08:49.280)
there's so much development to have happened.
Tom Brands (08:52.480)
I mean, when you need to learn wrestling,
Lex Fridman (08:55.280)
you need to be wrestling.
Lex Fridman (08:57.760)
And as you get older, your body won't do it anymore.
Lex Fridman (09:03.280)
And so to learn wrestling, it's more of a,
Tom Brands (09:05.920)
probably a relaxed approach.
Lex Fridman (09:08.320)
So if you had to choose between two athletes
Tom Brands (09:11.760)
who would dominate competition,
Lex Fridman (09:14.320)
one who drills 100,000 reps of a specific take down,
Lex Fridman (09:17.920)
specific technique, or one that spends that time live wrestling?
Lex Fridman (09:22.240)
Both, it's the same.
Lex Fridman (09:24.240)
And I like to live wrestling,
Lex Fridman (09:25.920)
I was always wanting to live wrestle,
Tom Brands (09:27.520)
bring the warm up into the live wrestle, let's go.
Lex Fridman (09:30.640)
But where I got really, really good was a repetition.
Lex Fridman (09:34.160)
And I was disciplined enough to know that the things
Lex Fridman (09:37.200)
that you hate to do in this sport
Tom Brands (09:40.240)
are the things that make you the very best.
Lex Fridman (09:42.640)
And that is a rare ingredient as I've gotten older.
Lex Fridman (09:45.760)
And you spend a lot of time communicating that
Lex Fridman (09:47.920)
to younger athletes.
Lex Fridman (09:50.160)
So the thing, if you feel yourself hating something,
Lex Fridman (09:53.280)
that's probably the thing you should be doing.
Tom Brands (09:55.280)
Yes, as a matter of fact,
Lex Fridman (09:56.080)
I had a strength coach when I was really young.
Tom Brands (09:58.560)
He was just a fricking guy that would,
Lex Fridman (10:01.360)
he wore white, like he was almost like a nurse,
Tom Brands (10:04.480)
nurses clothes.
Lex Fridman (10:05.680)
He wore all white from head to toe.
Lex Fridman (10:07.920)
And he was in Cheyenne, Wyoming.
Lex Fridman (10:10.400)
And his first name was Walt.
Lex Fridman (10:11.840)
And he taught Terry and I to hate the bar away from you
Lex Fridman (10:15.280)
on that last rep when you're dead.
Lex Fridman (10:17.360)
And whether it's a curl, you hate it up.
Lex Fridman (10:19.840)
And then you do the negative and you hate it down
Lex Fridman (10:21.920)
and you hate that bench up and you hate it.
Lex Fridman (10:23.920)
You look at the bar and you hate it away from you.
Lex Fridman (10:26.640)
So I learned and I was young, I was young.
Lex Fridman (10:31.360)
And I remember being born, my mom's sister lived out there
Lex Fridman (10:34.880)
and we were dropped off to stay out there with our cousins.
Lex Fridman (10:36.720)
And I was born a little bit.
Lex Fridman (10:38.320)
And they always treated us really good.
Lex Fridman (10:39.840)
But this was like the single most bright spot
Tom Brands (10:45.360)
in a weightlifting, like enlightenment,
Lex Fridman (10:48.160)
even though I lifted weights.
Lex Fridman (10:50.000)
But I never knew the psychology behind lifting weights.
Lex Fridman (10:52.880)
It's just to look good and so you can flex
Lex Fridman (10:54.800)
and look in the mirror or is it for performance?
Lex Fridman (10:57.280)
And this guy was about performance.
Lex Fridman (11:00.480)
And you said repetition.
Lex Fridman (11:01.840)
Do you mean technique?
Tom Brands (11:03.280)
I'm talking repetition, technique, technique, technique,
Lex Fridman (11:05.520)
drill, drill, drill, hit, hit, hit, drive, finish,
Tom Brands (11:07.760)
hit, hit, hit, drive, finish.
Lex Fridman (11:08.960)
So you believe in that.
Tom Brands (11:10.320)
I believe in that wholeheartedly.
Lex Fridman (11:14.000)
And I believe that you have to do it on your own.
Tom Brands (11:17.440)
I don't believe in the coach taking you to the promised land.
Lex Fridman (11:21.920)
So in the guys today or in yourself,
Lex Fridman (11:25.680)
how often do you see people that grow the belief
Lex Fridman (11:29.840)
of doing 10,000, 20,000 reps?
Tom Brands (11:32.400)
I think it's rare.
Lex Fridman (11:33.520)
I think it's very rare.
Lex Fridman (11:34.480)
And I think it's especially rare.
Lex Fridman (11:36.080)
I mean, you can talk about that as a coach,
Lex Fridman (11:37.680)
but it's especially rare to bring a guy to that understanding,
Lex Fridman (11:42.320)
but you never stop trying.
Tom Brands (11:43.920)
You're always trying to reach him.
Lex Fridman (11:46.080)
I mean, we didn't have a good performance out there tonight,
Lex Fridman (11:49.280)
but you know what?
Lex Fridman (11:50.800)
You don't stop communicating.
Lex Fridman (11:53.200)
And there's a lot of programs out there
Lex Fridman (11:56.080)
that put their head down when things aren't going their way.
Lex Fridman (11:59.120)
And then as things start going their way,
Lex Fridman (12:00.560)
then they rise with the tide.
Tom Brands (12:02.560)
There was no difference in the demeanor of our corner.
Lex Fridman (12:05.840)
And we talk about that, that's a philosophy.
Lex Fridman (12:08.160)
And so you're reaching your guys that way.
Lex Fridman (12:11.280)
So go back to your point or your question.
Lex Fridman (12:13.840)
Do you believe in the 10,000 reps?
Lex Fridman (12:16.800)
And yes, I do.
Lex Fridman (12:19.200)
How do you inspire people to do that?
Lex Fridman (12:20.560)
So by example, but communication.
Lex Fridman (12:23.120)
But I mean, in my experience, what I've seen communicating
Lex Fridman (12:28.240)
the value of repetition and drilling
Tom Brands (12:30.400)
is a hard thing to communicate.
Lex Fridman (12:31.440)
It's hard.
Lex Fridman (12:32.000)
And it's very rare to have somebody that goes in there
Lex Fridman (12:34.800)
and will do it on their own.
Lex Fridman (12:36.720)
Do you have young guys that step up and do that?
Lex Fridman (12:39.200)
We do, and it's rare.
Lex Fridman (12:41.120)
And the guys that do it on their own
Lex Fridman (12:42.960)
and have done it on their own
Tom Brands (12:44.080)
are the guys that are in that lineup and doing well.
Lex Fridman (12:48.480)
The other thing is that when you talk about
Tom Brands (12:52.240)
getting to that next level,
Lex Fridman (12:54.880)
a lot of times what held you back
Tom Brands (12:58.320)
was I did everything the coach asked of me and nothing more.
Lex Fridman (13:02.800)
Right.
Tom Brands (13:03.440)
I mean, you can be a great guy for a coach as an athlete,
Lex Fridman (13:09.120)
and you did everything that coach asked,
Lex Fridman (13:10.800)
but you did nothing more.
Lex Fridman (13:12.880)
So you're really looking for the guys
Tom Brands (13:14.800)
that go way beyond what the coach says.
Lex Fridman (13:17.440)
We don't want guys that are looking at their watch
Tom Brands (13:20.080)
running out of the room when practice is over.
Lex Fridman (13:22.560)
We want guys that know what they have to get done,
Lex Fridman (13:25.040)
and they might leave early,
Lex Fridman (13:26.960)
but they're not looking at their watch.
Tom Brands (13:28.720)
They might be done early.
Lex Fridman (13:29.600)
They might be, we might be on a whole different path,
Lex Fridman (13:32.560)
and this guy just excuses himself.
Lex Fridman (13:34.640)
I'm all about that.
Tom Brands (13:36.240)
We are not autocrats.
Lex Fridman (13:38.800)
There's an internal engine in there.
Tom Brands (13:40.320)
Is that something you're born with,
Lex Fridman (13:42.240)
or is that something you can develop?
Tom Brands (13:43.760)
I think you are born with it.
Lex Fridman (13:45.440)
You develop it also,
Lex Fridman (13:46.960)
and I think that there has to be comfort,
Lex Fridman (13:48.880)
and I go back to communication,
Tom Brands (13:50.880)
that young people are comfortable enough to communicate
Lex Fridman (13:55.600)
that I need to take the day off.
Lex Fridman (13:59.120)
So what do you mean by communication?
Lex Fridman (14:00.320)
Or I need to do something different.
Tom Brands (14:00.880)
Communication, exactly.
Lex Fridman (14:02.480)
So letting athletes be part of their own development.
Tom Brands (14:07.120)
Communication to me is letting them know
Lex Fridman (14:11.760)
what they need to do to get themselves in contention
Tom Brands (14:15.040)
to be the starting quarterback,
Lex Fridman (14:18.080)
and then to give them boosts and compliments
Tom Brands (14:22.720)
when they earn them,
Lex Fridman (14:23.760)
and I don't have time to waste with lies and cheating.
Lex Fridman (14:32.320)
And when I say cheating,
Lex Fridman (14:33.280)
I'm talking about when they cheat themselves,
Lex Fridman (14:34.880)
and so those become very direct conversations,
Lex Fridman (14:37.600)
and the conversation starts like this.
Tom Brands (14:39.760)
I don't have time to waste, and neither do you,
Lex Fridman (14:42.560)
and so why are we wasting our time?
Lex Fridman (14:44.000)
And here's what I mean by that.
Lex Fridman (14:46.160)
We're having a conversation about your accountability.
Tom Brands (14:49.920)
If you look in the mirror and you're accountable,
Lex Fridman (14:52.240)
then we aren't taking the time to go through this.
Tom Brands (14:55.280)
We're already on our way to solving the problem.
Lex Fridman (14:57.600)
Problem can't be solved without that understanding.
Lex Fridman (15:00.960)
And that has to do with symptoms
Lex Fridman (15:03.200)
that you see in the wrestling room.
Tom Brands (15:04.560)
There's something where the fire's not quite there.
Lex Fridman (15:05.680)
That has to do with mental, emotional,
Tom Brands (15:07.600)
spiritual, physical, everything.
Lex Fridman (15:10.480)
Everything that you know about.
Tom Brands (15:11.680)
You know, I had a boss,
Lex Fridman (15:14.000)
and our athletic director is a great athletic director,
Lex Fridman (15:16.240)
and he's a great athlete,
Lex Fridman (15:17.280)
and he's a great athlete,
Lex Fridman (15:18.320)
and our athletic director is a great athletic director,
Lex Fridman (15:20.080)
and he gives us everything we need to be successful,
Lex Fridman (15:22.400)
but I had a boss, his name was Fred Mims,
Lex Fridman (15:24.240)
and I didn't think anybody could be better than him,
Lex Fridman (15:26.160)
and then all of a sudden this Gene Taylor guy came in,
Lex Fridman (15:29.120)
and then he was pretty doggone good too,
Lex Fridman (15:30.800)
and he actually was just like Fred
Lex Fridman (15:33.680)
and maybe even a little bit more current,
Lex Fridman (15:35.840)
and then he ended up taking a job at Kansas State
Lex Fridman (15:37.680)
where he's the athletic director now,
Lex Fridman (15:39.840)
and then this lady, Barbara Burke, comes in,
Lex Fridman (15:43.520)
and I didn't think anybody could be better
Tom Brands (15:45.280)
than Gene Taylor or Fred Mims,
Lex Fridman (15:46.880)
and this Barbara Burke, she's better than both of them,
Lex Fridman (15:50.160)
and the reason why is because she's a problem solver.
Lex Fridman (15:52.880)
She doesn't waste time.
Tom Brands (15:54.080)
She's direct, and she's a problem solver,
Lex Fridman (15:56.320)
and that's what we need.
Tom Brands (15:57.520)
You need problem solvers.
Lex Fridman (16:01.120)
So on the flip side of problems and technique and repetition,
Tom Brands (16:06.880)
here's a thing called toughness, mental toughness,
Lex Fridman (16:10.720)
something that maybe you or maybe even Iowa in general
Tom Brands (16:14.160)
is a little bit known for.
Lex Fridman (16:15.680)
So how do you train mental toughness as a coach?
Tom Brands (16:19.040)
You train mental toughness by putting them in situations
Lex Fridman (16:23.040)
that they're willing to go through
Lex Fridman (16:27.280)
but don't think they can make it,
Lex Fridman (16:28.560)
and then they go through it,
Lex Fridman (16:29.440)
and then all of a sudden those berries are down.
Lex Fridman (16:31.760)
Does that have to do with physical usually exhaustion,
Lex Fridman (16:36.640)
the four reps on the ropes?
Lex Fridman (16:38.240)
It has to do with that,
Lex Fridman (16:40.720)
and it has to do with understanding why we're doing it.
Lex Fridman (16:45.040)
And sometimes understanding why we're doing it
Tom Brands (16:47.760)
might not come for months, but there's blind faith,
Lex Fridman (16:52.320)
and we have a heavyweight in the room right now,
Tom Brands (16:54.880)
this young guy that he's like that.
Lex Fridman (16:58.080)
He doesn't necessarily understand it.
Tom Brands (17:00.000)
He asks a lot of questions, but he doesn't,
Lex Fridman (17:03.360)
and he's been here four months now,
Tom Brands (17:04.880)
four and a half months now,
Lex Fridman (17:05.760)
and he's getting better every day.
Lex Fridman (17:07.760)
So mental toughness too is a matter of repetition.
Lex Fridman (17:11.440)
Mental toughness is a matter of repetition
Lex Fridman (17:13.280)
and having an open mind and being extremely accountable,
Lex Fridman (17:15.920)
and not only accountable that when you maybe,
Tom Brands (17:21.840)
when something doesn't go your way,
Lex Fridman (17:22.960)
that you look in the mirror and own it,
Lex Fridman (17:24.320)
but accountable to the point of view that,
Lex Fridman (17:27.600)
you know what, I gotta get tough in this situation
Tom Brands (17:30.400)
right here, right now,
Lex Fridman (17:31.760)
and this is what's gonna make or break me.
Lex Fridman (17:33.760)
And I talked about my own career being defined by,
Lex Fridman (17:36.640)
you know, a couple of minutes on the mat,
Lex Fridman (17:39.040)
but that's when you're gonna be defined.
Lex Fridman (17:41.440)
That's how you're gonna be defined.
Tom Brands (17:43.360)
That's okay.
Lex Fridman (17:44.640)
So people are gonna talk about you,
Lex Fridman (17:46.640)
so you might as well have them talking about
Lex Fridman (17:47.920)
how doggone tough you are.
Lex Fridman (17:51.040)
What about, we live in a world now,
Lex Fridman (17:53.760)
I have often in my own work,
Tom Brands (17:55.840)
I hear about this concept of work life balance
Lex Fridman (17:58.720)
or overtraining.
Lex Fridman (18:00.400)
So you've been one of the hardest workers ever on the mat.
Lex Fridman (18:04.720)
You've coached some of the hardest workers ever.
Lex Fridman (18:07.360)
Do you think it's possible to over train, train too much?
Lex Fridman (18:10.480)
How big of a concern is it?
Tom Brands (18:11.440)
I think peaking and burnout are frames of mind
Lex Fridman (18:15.520)
or burnout is a like you let things probably
Tom Brands (18:19.440)
get to the point where you could have arrested them
Lex Fridman (18:22.320)
with a good frame of mind.
Lex Fridman (18:24.160)
But peaking is a frame of mind
Lex Fridman (18:25.840)
and you have to know, be able to read,
Lex Fridman (18:28.880)
and that's a lot of it.
Lex Fridman (18:30.480)
And the individual athlete also has to know
Tom Brands (18:33.920)
that it's a frame of mind.
Lex Fridman (18:35.760)
And so when you have a coach that's reading that the right way
Lex Fridman (18:38.480)
and you have an athlete that is knowing that
Lex Fridman (18:42.160)
when zero hour comes that you're gonna be ready to go
Lex Fridman (18:46.160)
and knowing that there's light at the end of the tunnel
Lex Fridman (18:48.880)
if you feel like you're burning that candle at both ends,
Tom Brands (18:51.840)
light's coming at the end of the tunnel.
Lex Fridman (18:53.920)
I mean, you're good to go.
Lex Fridman (18:55.520)
So you think about Gable and that whole dream
Lex Fridman (18:59.280)
of being carried off the mat because you worked so hard.
Lex Fridman (19:02.160)
And again, do you think it's possible to overtrain?
Lex Fridman (19:04.800)
So you said it's mental.
Tom Brands (19:07.040)
I do think it's possible to overtrain
Lex Fridman (19:08.880)
if you have a lot of distractions.
Lex Fridman (19:11.120)
And if you're looking at your watch running out of the room,
Lex Fridman (19:14.400)
then yeah, that frame of mind
Tom Brands (19:16.960)
isn't gonna lend itself to excellency.
Lex Fridman (19:19.200)
And the thing is, is we have to accomplish
Lex Fridman (19:22.560)
what we need to get accomplished to get better every day.
Lex Fridman (19:24.800)
You can't kind of accomplish what you need to accomplish.
Tom Brands (19:26.880)
You have to accomplish it.
Lex Fridman (19:28.560)
And when you're in that mindset,
Tom Brands (19:31.520)
then the clock is irrelevant.
Lex Fridman (19:33.440)
There's no place for a clock in the wrestling room.
Lex Fridman (19:35.920)
And maybe a clock that times a match,
Lex Fridman (19:39.200)
but it may be a clock.
Tom Brands (19:40.960)
We're student athletes here,
Lex Fridman (19:42.800)
but that's why we encourage when you schedule your classes
Tom Brands (19:47.120)
that you don't have a class that comes right up to practice time
Lex Fridman (19:53.200)
or starts as a night class and it starts at 5.30.
Tom Brands (19:56.960)
Go to get the 6.30 class or the seven o clock.
Lex Fridman (19:59.520)
So you leave it all behind your heart,
Tom Brands (20:01.520)
your passion is completely in it.
Lex Fridman (20:02.960)
There's no problem.
Tom Brands (20:03.360)
When you walk in that wrestling room,
Lex Fridman (20:05.040)
there's no distractions and it's never eternal.
Tom Brands (20:08.320)
The only thing that's eternal is death.
Lex Fridman (20:11.440)
You know, there's nothing.
Tom Brands (20:12.720)
Sometimes guys come in there and they wig out.
Lex Fridman (20:15.760)
It's an hour and 25 minutes,
Tom Brands (20:20.000)
or an hour and 45 minutes.
Lex Fridman (20:22.640)
You have to be willing to go as long as it takes.
Tom Brands (20:25.520)
There's no clock.
Lex Fridman (20:26.400)
There's no clock.
Tom Brands (20:28.320)
Again, wrestlers are some of the hardest,
Lex Fridman (20:30.080)
some of the toughest people in all of sports,
Lex Fridman (20:33.040)
but weight cutting often breaks people.
Lex Fridman (20:35.840)
So what's your thought on weight cutting,
Lex Fridman (20:38.400)
both nutrition wise, mental wise?
Lex Fridman (20:40.640)
How do you approach and think of it as a coach
Lex Fridman (20:43.680)
in your own career too?
Lex Fridman (20:45.520)
It's a lot of discipline and it's a lot of discipline
Tom Brands (20:50.000)
during a very uncomfortable time period
Lex Fridman (20:51.840)
that really doesn't last that long,
Lex Fridman (20:53.120)
but it feels like it lasts long and it's painful.
Lex Fridman (20:56.080)
But once you shrink your body down
Lex Fridman (20:58.880)
and if you're hydrated, you'll get through it.
Lex Fridman (21:01.120)
If you're a little hungry, but you're eating,
Lex Fridman (21:04.080)
but you're hydrated, once you break that sweat,
Lex Fridman (21:06.960)
your energy depletion goes away.
Tom Brands (21:09.120)
That's a fact.
Lex Fridman (21:10.320)
I've practiced that.
Tom Brands (21:11.680)
You come in and you're yawning
Lex Fridman (21:13.840)
and you're starting to shrink your body down
Lex Fridman (21:16.560)
and it's that time of year where,
Lex Fridman (21:17.760)
hey, I gotta get my body shrunk down
Lex Fridman (21:20.080)
and you're dehydrated, you are dead in the water.
Lex Fridman (21:23.760)
But if you're hungry and hydrated,
Tom Brands (21:26.720)
when you break that sweat...
Lex Fridman (21:27.840)
Have people gotten better with that over the years,
Lex Fridman (21:30.000)
over the past few decades?
Lex Fridman (21:30.880)
I think that coaches, science is better.
Tom Brands (21:34.000)
I think that coaches communicate it.
Lex Fridman (21:35.600)
I think they always have.
Tom Brands (21:37.360)
I think the bottom line is,
Lex Fridman (21:38.960)
is having the energy to implement that
Lex Fridman (21:41.680)
and taking a guy by the hand when he doesn't understand
Lex Fridman (21:46.480)
and he's new in your program and he's essential
Lex Fridman (21:49.120)
and or he's unwilling to and not disciplined enough
Lex Fridman (21:51.760)
because when you take him by the hand enough,
Tom Brands (21:53.040)
they won't learn that discipline.
Lex Fridman (21:55.680)
This is a fact.
Tom Brands (21:56.400)
This is an important aspect of wrestling, buddy.
Lex Fridman (22:00.640)
You know what I'm saying?
Tom Brands (22:01.760)
So, you know, it's not just go and show up for the match.
Lex Fridman (22:06.640)
I mean, it's not about just making weight either.
Tom Brands (22:08.960)
You gotta be able to make weight.
Lex Fridman (22:10.160)
That's part of the warm up.
Tom Brands (22:12.000)
That's part of the process, getting ready to wrestle.
Lex Fridman (22:14.240)
It's a whole thing.
Tom Brands (22:14.720)
It's a lifestyle.
Lex Fridman (22:15.600)
Yeah.
Tom Brands (22:16.720)
When did you first start believing
Lex Fridman (22:19.120)
you're going to win Olympic gold?
Tom Brands (22:21.840)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (22:22.880)
I mean, I found out I got really addicted
Tom Brands (22:25.840)
to wrestling really, really fast, started late.
Lex Fridman (22:28.640)
But looking back at my life,
Tom Brands (22:31.920)
wrestled my whole life with my twin brother.
Lex Fridman (22:34.560)
And when Terry and I would fight, it was wrestling
Lex Fridman (22:37.840)
and it was to maim.
Lex Fridman (22:39.520)
And so if you're trying to maim me,
Tom Brands (22:43.840)
I better be tough because if I roll over
Lex Fridman (22:47.680)
and expect you to scratch my belly
Tom Brands (22:49.280)
when you're trying to maim me, I won't lose my head.
Lex Fridman (22:51.040)
And Tom and Terry Brands, there was no alpha male.
Lex Fridman (22:55.360)
And when it was on, it was on for real.
Lex Fridman (22:58.160)
What do you mean there's no alpha male?
Lex Fridman (22:59.520)
There's both?
Lex Fridman (23:00.880)
There are a lot of twins.
Tom Brands (23:02.160)
There's a dominant twin.
Lex Fridman (23:03.360)
Oh, a lot of them.
Tom Brands (23:04.160)
Ah.
Lex Fridman (23:04.640)
Very few times is there a situation
Tom Brands (23:08.400)
where I'm going to win every time in everything
Lex Fridman (23:11.440)
and then he's thinking the same exact way.
Lex Fridman (23:13.840)
And Terry used to describe it like when we used
Lex Fridman (23:15.840)
to get interviewed a lot about our careers.
Tom Brands (23:17.520)
Like it'd be like you grabbing a steering wheel
Lex Fridman (23:19.920)
and me grabbing a steering wheel and fighting.
Lex Fridman (23:22.160)
And that's what it was like when you would wrestle him
Lex Fridman (23:24.240)
or fight him.
Lex Fridman (23:25.760)
And so I had that benefit.
Lex Fridman (23:27.760)
So when did I know?
Tom Brands (23:28.720)
Well, I got addicted to wrestling really, really fast
Lex Fridman (23:31.280)
in fifth grade and started to research it.
Lex Fridman (23:34.000)
And I don't know why and talked about the Olympics
Lex Fridman (23:37.520)
and put it in my head and remember said something
Tom Brands (23:43.600)
about being an Olympic champion in fifth grade.
Lex Fridman (23:45.760)
And somebody made fun of me and I got in a fight
Tom Brands (23:47.760)
in the playground.
Lex Fridman (23:49.360)
And I remember getting pulled in,
Tom Brands (23:53.040)
getting in trouble for that.
Lex Fridman (23:54.960)
And the people that got me in trouble for that
Tom Brands (23:57.600)
were smart enough to not rake me over the coals,
Lex Fridman (24:00.880)
but they researched or they actually found out
Lex Fridman (24:03.440)
what the fight was about.
Lex Fridman (24:04.800)
And I was distraught.
Tom Brands (24:06.880)
I was really emotional, like crying
Lex Fridman (24:09.600)
or whatever you want to say.
Tom Brands (24:10.640)
You don't want to admit that too many times.
Lex Fridman (24:12.480)
But it wasn't because I got beat up or got my nose bloodied
Tom Brands (24:15.600)
or got punched in the face or broke my arm
Lex Fridman (24:19.440)
or there was any pain.
Tom Brands (24:20.400)
It was because they stomped on my dream and they doubted me.
Lex Fridman (24:24.000)
And so I fought for that.
Lex Fridman (24:26.080)
And that was a lesson.
Lex Fridman (24:27.840)
There's going to be a lot of doubters.
Lex Fridman (24:29.920)
And one thing we talk about as a staff is our staff
Lex Fridman (24:34.320)
has to be lockstep in that hallway, in our offices.
Lex Fridman (24:38.800)
And when you deviate outside of that, that is heresy.
Lex Fridman (24:43.920)
So everybody has to be on board,
Tom Brands (24:45.840)
confident that you're going to be number one in the country.
Lex Fridman (24:48.400)
When we go forward and we go put our public foot forward,
Tom Brands (24:51.280)
there is a decision.
Lex Fridman (24:52.080)
We are unified and there is no backbiting.
Lex Fridman (24:55.360)
And we have great people right now.
Lex Fridman (24:56.960)
And we hadn't had that before.
Tom Brands (24:58.320)
We've had detractors in our Hawkeye Wrestling Club.
Lex Fridman (25:01.520)
We've had guys that would go out and get rolled up
Tom Brands (25:03.840)
in ankle laces and not be able to walk.
Lex Fridman (25:05.920)
We've had guys that would go out and get rolled up in ankle laces
Lex Fridman (25:08.880)
and not care in our club.
Lex Fridman (25:11.200)
And we got Brandon Sorensen,
Tom Brands (25:12.560)
who got rolled up by James Green last night.
Lex Fridman (25:15.440)
But I'll tell you what, I don't have a problem with that.
Lex Fridman (25:18.080)
You know why?
Lex Fridman (25:18.720)
Because I know it means a lot to him.
Tom Brands (25:20.400)
He didn't roll over.
Lex Fridman (25:22.160)
He didn't quit because he was on the consolation side of a bracket.
Lex Fridman (25:25.680)
And so when you have that and then you have,
Lex Fridman (25:29.120)
if there's a disagreement, it's behind closed doors.
Lex Fridman (25:31.440)
And then you're moving forward.
Lex Fridman (25:32.560)
And when you have people that when they're meeting your fans
Lex Fridman (25:35.680)
and your supporters, you know, they're talking the right way
Lex Fridman (25:38.800)
with the right message.
Lex Fridman (25:40.560)
And anything that's cattywonk is to that,
Lex Fridman (25:42.880)
you got to be careful there.
Tom Brands (25:44.560)
You got to be careful there.
Lex Fridman (25:46.560)
So that in terms of affirmation, in terms of really believing
Tom Brands (25:49.840)
as a team, as an individual, believing that you're the best
Lex Fridman (25:52.720)
in the world, did you, I'm sure you had detractors.
Tom Brands (25:57.040)
You had people that continued after fifth grade.
Lex Fridman (25:59.600)
And that's probably where my hatred of losing trumps
Tom Brands (26:03.440)
my love for winning because I wanted to shove it up
Lex Fridman (26:06.640)
their rear end bad.
Tom Brands (26:08.800)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (26:10.640)
And the thing is, is we maintain a high level
Lex Fridman (26:13.760)
and there's very few programs.
Lex Fridman (26:15.440)
Oklahoma State, Ohio State now, Penn State.
Tom Brands (26:19.440)
I mean, there's four programs that try to win
Lex Fridman (26:21.760)
a national title every year.
Lex Fridman (26:23.840)
And that's it.
Lex Fridman (26:24.480)
And these other teams, they get up and they got a good team
Lex Fridman (26:28.320)
and they get up and they get going.
Lex Fridman (26:30.400)
And then when things don't go well, okay,
Tom Brands (26:32.720)
we're going to do it next year.
Lex Fridman (26:34.080)
Or this is a down year.
Tom Brands (26:35.440)
We're going to get right.
Lex Fridman (26:36.320)
We're three years out.
Lex Fridman (26:37.920)
So no matter what you're fighting for first.
Lex Fridman (26:39.920)
We do.
Lex Fridman (26:40.400)
And we haven't won and you say, well, even one in eight years.
Lex Fridman (26:43.040)
Well, you're right.
Tom Brands (26:43.520)
We haven't.
Lex Fridman (26:44.640)
But look at our results are better than anybody out there.
Lex Fridman (26:47.760)
And it's besides Penn State.
Lex Fridman (26:49.520)
And it's because of our mentality and because we have great people.
Tom Brands (26:54.240)
Ryan Morningstar, Bobby Telfer, Terry Brands,
Lex Fridman (26:56.560)
our medical team, even our strength coach,
Tom Brands (26:59.680)
Quinn Holland, we're all on the same page.
Lex Fridman (27:02.560)
And when I send something, I hit it immediately.
Tom Brands (27:04.880)
I don't have time to waste.
Lex Fridman (27:06.560)
There will not be dissension in that hallway.
Tom Brands (27:09.200)
Everybody's in together.
Lex Fridman (27:10.640)
Yeah.
Tom Brands (27:11.680)
1996 Olympic Games in Atlanta.
Lex Fridman (27:14.160)
Can you take me through the day when you're going for the 62 kg gold?
Lex Fridman (27:19.760)
What did you eat?
Lex Fridman (27:21.200)
Drink?
Lex Fridman (27:22.000)
What did you think?
Lex Fridman (27:23.360)
It really doesn't matter.
Tom Brands (27:24.640)
Um, I have a routine that, you know, I had a routine as a competitor
Lex Fridman (27:28.960)
that I could run through right now.
Tom Brands (27:31.200)
Um, it was a lot of self talk, very, very positive self talk.
Lex Fridman (27:35.440)
Visualization.
Tom Brands (27:36.320)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (27:36.720)
Visualization, um, self talk.
Tom Brands (27:39.440)
Um, and, and that's how I was able to relax and getting ready for
Lex Fridman (27:43.520)
matches my whole life.
Tom Brands (27:45.440)
Learned that very early age at a camp and a developmental camp
Lex Fridman (27:49.680)
at a young age, Terry and I did.
Tom Brands (27:51.040)
And, um, I can tell you what I ate and I can tell you what I did to
Lex Fridman (27:57.600)
relax and it doesn't matter.
Tom Brands (27:59.840)
Um, what you have to do is you have to find that piece.
Lex Fridman (28:03.840)
And I just know that when I was getting ready for the finals match,
Tom Brands (28:08.320)
I had gone back to my room.
Lex Fridman (28:09.680)
I had my relaxed material, you know, and I was able to relax
Tom Brands (28:15.440)
because I prepared for it.
Lex Fridman (28:17.520)
Hopefully I'm right on this, but just looking at the insane bracket
Tom Brands (28:21.680)
you had to go through, you had to beat, just to get to the finals,
Lex Fridman (28:24.240)
it had to be three world champions, eventually world champ.
Lex Fridman (28:27.120)
I mean, Dave, and you know what?
Lex Fridman (28:29.040)
I don't talk about that and nobody else does either, but everybody
Tom Brands (28:31.920)
talks about it in their own career.
Lex Fridman (28:34.000)
So now you're making my head big, but yeah, I had a road, I had a road.
Tom Brands (28:39.120)
You're right.
Lex Fridman (28:39.680)
That is the hardest bracket I've seen.
Lex Fridman (28:41.440)
So I've talked to a lot of Olympic champions.
Lex Fridman (28:43.840)
That is the hardest bracket I've seen of any champion.
Lex Fridman (28:46.320)
So maybe I'm confused on this, but it seemed like a really tough day for you.
Lex Fridman (28:50.880)
Did you have, did you know the bracket ahead of time?
Lex Fridman (28:53.920)
Did you know who you faced?
Lex Fridman (28:55.280)
You see the draw and it's a two day tournament.
Lex Fridman (28:58.960)
So psychology comes into it as much as physical shape, you know,
Lex Fridman (29:05.040)
because there's those, you got to sleep, you know, the night before
Tom Brands (29:09.040)
after the weigh in, then you got to sleep again that next night
Lex Fridman (29:11.520)
after your semi final match is going to be in the morning.
Tom Brands (29:14.800)
You know, and then you have to go back and rest because your final
Lex Fridman (29:16.960)
matches in Intel, whatever time it was.
Lex Fridman (29:19.680)
And so all this relaxation and all that stuff that you just talked about,
Lex Fridman (29:23.280)
that visualization and self talk, that's what helps you.
Tom Brands (29:25.200)
It's your routine.
Lex Fridman (29:27.120)
And was there any doubt, any fear, any, anything there?
Tom Brands (29:31.520)
The fear is the type of fear.
Lex Fridman (29:34.720)
And I just talked about this to one of my athletes today.
Tom Brands (29:38.320)
Jack Dempsey talked about fear and the fear of losing is what motivates
Lex Fridman (29:43.040)
him to try to take his opponent's head off.
Tom Brands (29:45.200)
He was a boxer and that's okay.
Lex Fridman (29:49.360)
So fear of competition, fear of screwing up, fear of, oh, I don't feel good.
Tom Brands (29:54.320)
No, no.
Lex Fridman (29:55.520)
But that little fear that, you know what, there's somebody out there
Tom Brands (29:58.720)
that thinks that, you know what, they're going to, they're going to revel in my,
Lex Fridman (30:03.600)
they're going to, they're going to, they're going to eat it up in my misery.
Tom Brands (30:07.040)
They're going to love, they're going to be thriving because I fail.
Lex Fridman (30:10.240)
And I'm not going to let that happen.
Tom Brands (30:13.360)
You're identical twin brother, Terry.
Lex Fridman (30:15.920)
You've been at him, like you said, your whole life, and you're both some of the
Tom Brands (30:21.280)
greatest wrestlers of all time.
Lex Fridman (30:23.120)
You won the gold medal.
Tom Brands (30:24.000)
He won the bronze medal.
Lex Fridman (30:25.840)
You've mentioned, you know, all that really matters is the six minutes or,
Tom Brands (30:30.400)
you know, just a few minutes, sometimes a few seconds to find your whole career.
Lex Fridman (30:33.840)
So how do you think about that thin line, the tragic line, and how do you
Tom Brands (30:38.480)
think about that line, the tragic line at the Olympic level between winning and
Lex Fridman (30:42.880)
losing?
Tom Brands (30:43.360)
I think you come to peace that in the end, when it's over, that you did the
Lex Fridman (30:47.840)
best you could.
Lex Fridman (30:49.280)
And that's certainly the case with Terry.
Lex Fridman (30:53.040)
He has a career credentials are better than mine internationally.
Tom Brands (30:57.040)
You know, he won two world championships.
Lex Fridman (30:58.560)
I won one and he won an Olympic bronze medal.
Tom Brands (31:01.840)
And, you know, I won an Olympic gold medal, but I only won one.
Lex Fridman (31:06.320)
The thing is, is that's not what's important anyway.
Tom Brands (31:09.920)
What's important is, is that when it's all over, you know, how do you look
Lex Fridman (31:17.440)
back on it?
Lex Fridman (31:18.720)
And you're kind of like, well, you just said that you made sure that you
Lex Fridman (31:22.160)
weren't going to leave anything undone.
Lex Fridman (31:24.160)
But you know what?
Lex Fridman (31:24.880)
There were tournaments where I did leave things undone.
Lex Fridman (31:27.840)
And so how do you come back from that?
Lex Fridman (31:29.120)
Well, Terry never came back from 2000 because he retired.
Lex Fridman (31:32.560)
Well, you know what?
Lex Fridman (31:33.680)
Duplicate and exceed when you're communicating to these young athletes.
Lex Fridman (31:38.160)
And because of that experience, that makes Terry a better coach.
Lex Fridman (31:41.600)
Because of, you know, 1995, that makes me a better coach.
Tom Brands (31:46.560)
You know, realizing that there are certain things that unraveled in that
Lex Fridman (31:51.680)
year that I could have controlled looking back on it.
Lex Fridman (31:54.960)
And when you have that perspective, you can communicate.
Lex Fridman (31:59.280)
So what control is there?
Lex Fridman (32:01.520)
Can you control everything?
Lex Fridman (32:02.880)
How big of a role is luck?
Tom Brands (32:04.720)
Control how you react to an injury, control that.
Lex Fridman (32:09.040)
So you can't, you don't have any control over it.
Tom Brands (32:10.880)
It's over, you know, you have whatever and whatever happened, but relax.
Lex Fridman (32:18.080)
And you learn to deal with injuries better because of that.
Tom Brands (32:20.640)
You have that experience that you let this thing maybe get the best of you.
Lex Fridman (32:25.520)
And that's just an example.
Tom Brands (32:27.120)
And, you know, Terry put a lot of demons to rest with that bronze medal.
Lex Fridman (32:34.640)
So becoming an Olympic medalist, a few demons could relax.
Tom Brands (32:38.400)
Well, a little, he will never admit that.
Lex Fridman (32:40.160)
And he probably isn't truthful.
Lex Fridman (32:42.080)
And I should, I'm speaking for him, but he's truthful when he says that.
Lex Fridman (32:45.760)
But if I look at it and bronze sucks, but if I look at it, he did put some
Tom Brands (32:54.240)
demons to rest and I'm proud of him for it.
Tom Brands (32:56.000)
There's something there that is a consolation in the fact that he won the consolation medal.
Tom Brands (33:04.400)
The consolation medal sucks, but there is a consolation that he won the consolation medal.
Lex Fridman (33:08.800)
That's a tough medal to win, by the way.
Tom Brands (33:10.400)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (33:11.920)
But do you see the Shakespearean tragedy of it all that the line between winning and losing?
Lex Fridman (33:18.800)
So you often say that, you know, winning is everything, but it feels like, especially
Tom Brands (33:23.280)
at the Olympic level, or you talk about NCAA finals or that tournament, you know, a split
Tom Brands (33:30.160)
second miss move can result in a loss where you dominated all the way up to there.
Lex Fridman (33:37.040)
That's where your psychology comes in.
Lex Fridman (33:39.200)
And that's where the repetition and all of the self talk and visualization
Lex Fridman (33:43.840)
and the physical shape and everything comes together.
Lex Fridman (33:47.680)
And so that doesn't happen.
Lex Fridman (33:49.360)
And tonight, we got beat twice, actually three times, and we out wrestled those.
Tom Brands (33:55.520)
We lost three matches and we out wrestled the guy for six minutes and 30 seconds, or
Lex Fridman (34:01.520)
one match went to overtime.
Lex Fridman (34:04.160)
And if our guys can move forward with the right perspective, I'm confident that they'll
Lex Fridman (34:09.520)
be better.
Tom Brands (34:11.680)
I'll tell you what, I'd take our guy over their guy any day, any day, because our guys
Lex Fridman (34:16.400)
get up for every match.
Lex Fridman (34:17.760)
And now we got a lot to work on.
Lex Fridman (34:20.880)
A lot to work on.
Lex Fridman (34:21.920)
But you know what?
Lex Fridman (34:22.880)
I can say all that and I'll take our guy and blah, blah, blah.
Lex Fridman (34:26.000)
But what are they going to do tonight in their meal?
Lex Fridman (34:28.640)
What are they going to do tonight in their rest?
Lex Fridman (34:30.880)
What are they going to do tomorrow in their recovery on their own, necessarily?
Lex Fridman (34:35.040)
What are they going to do Monday?
Tom Brands (34:37.040)
Great wrestlers can use their imagination with a win that they're not satisfied with
Lex Fridman (34:46.800)
and go forward as if it was a loss.
Lex Fridman (34:49.520)
But it's still easier to go forward with that win.
Lex Fridman (34:52.160)
But they can, they don't just, oh, I won, I'm fine, goes on.
Lex Fridman (34:56.800)
But then when they lose the exact same way that they could have lost before, then they
Lex Fridman (35:01.520)
go off the deep end.
Lex Fridman (35:02.560)
And then that's when they lose.
Tom Brands (35:03.760)
They could have lost before, then they go off the deep end and then that's when they're
Tom Brands (35:07.280)
going to make the change in their life.
Lex Fridman (35:08.960)
And we talked about that to our team tonight.
Lex Fridman (35:12.400)
And the mature, rare ingredient is, is guys that can get better even with success like
Lex Fridman (35:21.920)
it was a loss without beating themselves up.
Tom Brands (35:24.400)
That's complicated.
Lex Fridman (35:25.760)
It is.
Tom Brands (35:26.240)
It's a balance.
Tom Brands (35:26.880)
You often talk about Iowa's focus on creating individual champions like Spencer Lee.
Lex Fridman (35:34.320)
Can you explain the philosophy of focusing on individuals versus the team?
Tom Brands (35:39.040)
I think that we need to put them both together and the individual impacts the team.
Tom Brands (35:45.760)
And, you know, we haven't done that since 2010 and we need to do a better job of putting
Lex Fridman (35:53.280)
10 weight classes out there that contribute to the team.
Lex Fridman (35:57.040)
And if it's not 10, then it's nine.
Lex Fridman (35:59.760)
And if it's not nine, it can't be four, you know?
Lex Fridman (36:03.520)
And that takes a lot of pride and it takes a lot of, you know, where the coach is on
Lex Fridman (36:10.560)
top of it.
Tom Brands (36:12.000)
And, you know, you're not just working on the easy things, the glaring things.
Lex Fridman (36:19.520)
You're working on everything.
Lex Fridman (36:21.120)
What do you mean by everything?
Lex Fridman (36:22.400)
So, the…
Tom Brands (36:24.400)
Like there's just some, you know, there's ideas that when you're a coach that aren't
Lex Fridman (36:32.480)
there beneath the surface and you got to find them.
Lex Fridman (36:36.480)
And that's where communication comes in.
Lex Fridman (36:38.320)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (36:38.800)
But you're talking about, yeah, we got to move forward.
Lex Fridman (36:42.480)
Well, what does that mean?
Tom Brands (36:43.680)
Well, I know what that means.
Lex Fridman (36:45.040)
But how many guys really know what that means in their program?
Tom Brands (36:52.320)
You know, there's so many levels of that.
Lex Fridman (36:55.120)
You've said before that winning is everything and that means people lose.
Tom Brands (37:00.400)
Most people lose, you know, there's really in whatever the context is only one winner.
Tom Brands (37:06.080)
In many parts of our world today, outside of wrestling, that concept, the brutal honesty
Tom Brands (37:10.800)
of that is uncomfortable for people.
Tom Brands (37:12.800)
So, how do you think about this very philosophical, difficult concept of, you know, there only
Lex Fridman (37:23.120)
being one winner, that winning is everything, this kind of really painful idea?
Lex Fridman (37:27.920)
I don't think that that's a bad thing to have that mentality.
Tom Brands (37:31.920)
I mean, I think Akutukov, I remember a story I read about him.
Lex Fridman (37:36.240)
He comes to mind.
Tom Brands (37:37.200)
You know, Sargush, I remember when he lost in London and I remember the look on his face.
Lex Fridman (37:45.120)
And those are some of the greatest wrestlers in the history of the sport, freestyle wrestling.
Lex Fridman (37:49.360)
And, you know what?
Lex Fridman (37:52.080)
It's what works for you.
Tom Brands (37:54.160)
You can talk about being at peace with your results and that the approach is and the journey
Lex Fridman (38:00.240)
is what it's about.
Tom Brands (38:01.200)
But, and that's great and that relaxes some champions and that makes some champions really,
Lex Fridman (38:07.200)
really tick, but not everybody.
Tom Brands (38:11.520)
So, it's okay, it's okay.
Lex Fridman (38:14.400)
And if that wigs you out and that really makes you uptight, then go the other route.
Tom Brands (38:20.240)
You have to find what works for you.
Lex Fridman (38:22.160)
And that takes a lot of work.
Tom Brands (38:23.120)
If you're lazy, forget it, forget it.
Tom Brands (38:26.960)
So, you and Terry, but in general, how do you find the line between extremely physical,
Lex Fridman (38:33.360)
extreme physical wrestling and rough wrestling or angry wrestling?
Tom Brands (38:37.040)
So, to which degree has anger, whether it's in your wrestling room these days or in your
Lex Fridman (38:41.040)
own career, entered wrestling?
Lex Fridman (38:43.280)
Do you see it as a tool that can be used in the wrestling match?
Tom Brands (38:47.440)
I think there's a balance or not even a balance.
Lex Fridman (38:50.400)
There's a lot of balance in the wrestling world.
Tom Brands (38:52.880)
I think there's a balance or not even a balance, there's a line that you go up to and you can't
Lex Fridman (38:58.880)
cross it.
Tom Brands (38:59.760)
Sportsmanship is everything.
Lex Fridman (39:01.040)
You can get dinged for points.
Tom Brands (39:02.640)
You can get thrown out of tournaments.
Tom Brands (39:05.520)
There's rules with flagrant misconduct where you're kicked out of the match, other team
Tom Brands (39:12.080)
gets the points and then you have to sit the next meet.
Lex Fridman (39:15.840)
So, it's very serious.
Tom Brands (39:17.200)
The NCAA sends a message, a very serious message about sportsmanship.
Lex Fridman (39:22.720)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (39:23.120)
And so, we talk about that.
Lex Fridman (39:24.640)
The other thing with wrestling is there's rules in wrestling.
Tom Brands (39:27.760)
These guys that are tough guys outside of the rules, that's what you want in your opponent.
Lex Fridman (39:34.240)
That means they're frustrated.
Tom Brands (39:38.480)
You got to be a tough guy inside the rules of the sport.
Lex Fridman (39:43.680)
That's more honorable than cold cocking somebody and knocking them out.
Tom Brands (39:47.760)
So, yeah, anger doesn't mean breaking the rules.
Lex Fridman (39:49.840)
But I mean, you know, a lot of people know you just watching you as a coach.
Tom Brands (39:54.640)
There's quite a bit of passion there.
Lex Fridman (39:56.160)
Well, come and do what you're doing tonight.
Tom Brands (39:58.000)
I mean, break bread with me in my kitchen and see how big of a jackass I am.
Lex Fridman (40:01.920)
Now, you're a pretty nice guy.
Tom Brands (40:03.040)
Well, I'm not asking for that necessarily, but thanks.
Tom Brands (40:05.600)
I'm saying, you know what, as a coach, I mean, okay, come spend a month in our program and
Tom Brands (40:12.080)
you'll see really what kind of people we are.
Lex Fridman (40:15.600)
And there's a stigma out there because they are very threatened by our program.
Tom Brands (40:20.000)
There's nobody else that threatens the sport of wrestling like we do.
Lex Fridman (40:25.520)
And that's the truth.
Tom Brands (40:26.960)
There's a legend to Iowa wrestling.
Lex Fridman (40:29.360)
There's one of the most intimidating.
Tom Brands (40:31.920)
There's a legend to John Smith.
Lex Fridman (40:34.240)
It's the same thing.
Tom Brands (40:35.840)
They get up for John Smith.
Lex Fridman (40:37.680)
They get up for Oklahoma State.
Tom Brands (40:39.920)
They get up for Penn State.
Lex Fridman (40:42.880)
My question is, okay, I'll answer it.
Tom Brands (40:44.800)
I'll answer it this way.
Lex Fridman (40:45.680)
I'll give you an example in my coaching career.
Tom Brands (40:48.160)
I coached at Virginia Tech for 22 months.
Lex Fridman (40:52.240)
We recruited the number one recruiting class.
Tom Brands (40:54.960)
We got the administration to change 100% 180 how they looked at wrestling.
Lex Fridman (41:00.800)
Here's the thing.
Lex Fridman (41:01.600)
And because of how serious we were and because we weren't idiots,
Lex Fridman (41:06.960)
we were able to do that with our administration.
Lex Fridman (41:09.120)
But my point is this, we tried to win.
Lex Fridman (41:12.480)
We tried to win, even at Virginia Tech.
Tom Brands (41:14.080)
It wasn't a stepping stone for me.
Lex Fridman (41:15.520)
It ended up being one quickly and looking back on it.
Tom Brands (41:18.880)
I was a fool to think that I'd be there for 20 years.
Lex Fridman (41:21.680)
But you believed you would be.
Tom Brands (41:23.120)
I did.
Lex Fridman (41:23.600)
Yeah, I did.
Tom Brands (41:25.600)
I did.
Lex Fridman (41:26.640)
So do you remember a time that you really pushed yourself to your limits?
Lex Fridman (41:32.320)
So Gable talks about having to be carried off the mat.
Lex Fridman (41:35.760)
Have you really found that level?
Tom Brands (41:37.600)
I said something about that too in a book and I think I was mistaken.
Lex Fridman (41:41.280)
A book and I think I was misquoted one time.
Lex Fridman (41:44.400)
And actually it was Gable's quote.
Lex Fridman (41:45.920)
And I was trying to make the point that Gable's quote was like this.
Lex Fridman (41:50.560)
And they were making it like it was my own words.
Lex Fridman (41:53.440)
I think it was a first wrestling tough book, but it's a good book.
Lex Fridman (41:58.720)
But the story is Gable's.
Lex Fridman (42:00.960)
And I don't know if there's anybody that has done that besides him.
Lex Fridman (42:06.560)
And I think that's a very rare quality.
Lex Fridman (42:08.960)
But I've definitely been in that nirvana level of, you know, you could go all day long.
Lex Fridman (42:17.920)
And it doesn't, you have to shoot me to stop me.
Lex Fridman (42:20.720)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (42:21.680)
But there's a balance because you're not going hard with and holding your breath.
Lex Fridman (42:25.760)
It's not a, it's a relaxed and like you got a guy cornered and who's most dangerous?
Tom Brands (42:34.880)
Well, the guy that's cornered.
Lex Fridman (42:36.400)
And so that's where you relax, I'm not bum rushing him.
Tom Brands (42:40.000)
I'm relaxed.
Lex Fridman (42:40.960)
I'm still moving, fake and very fluid.
Tom Brands (42:43.120)
Guy falls down his face.
Lex Fridman (42:44.080)
I run around behind him.
Tom Brands (42:45.680)
That's offense.
Lex Fridman (42:47.680)
You don't have to just grunt to the leg and call that offense.
Tom Brands (42:52.320)
Offense is a in and out, smooth.
Lex Fridman (42:56.080)
Now you sound like a Russian wrestler.
Tom Brands (42:58.640)
Yeah.
Tom Brands (42:59.140)
Well, that's, they're the best in a certain light, looking at the history of wrestling.
Tom Brands (43:04.240)
Wrestling is much bigger than folk style, freestyle, Greco.
Lex Fridman (43:07.840)
It's, it's one of the oldest forms of combat period.
Tom Brands (43:11.360)
There's been cave drawings 15,000 years ago.
Lex Fridman (43:14.560)
Do you ever see, so you're, you're, uh, one of the great coaches of all time.
Tom Brands (43:19.600)
You're now focused on a particular rule style right now, but do you ever see wrestling
Lex Fridman (43:23.760)
as bigger than all of the, this, you know, as, as, uh, one of the pure combats?
Tom Brands (43:29.840)
I do, and we're raising $20 million for a facility to make it the best facility on the planet.
Tom Brands (43:34.960)
We have a vision to build the best facility on planet earth and put the best wrestlers in it.
Lex Fridman (43:41.520)
And that is bigger than wrestling.
Tom Brands (43:45.040)
It's for the university of Iowa and our donors are doing it for the university of Iowa, but it is
Tom Brands (43:52.000)
about the value of wrestling to me.
Tom Brands (43:55.600)
Also, there is so much value to wrestling blind, blind people don't play football.
Tom Brands (44:01.600)
They wrestle blind people, don't play basketball.
Lex Fridman (44:04.240)
I mean, maybe they do, but it'd be very difficult.
Tom Brands (44:08.080)
They can wrestle.
Lex Fridman (44:09.920)
Wrestling is a field sport.
Tom Brands (44:12.800)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (44:12.800)
There's no ball.
Tom Brands (44:13.600)
There's nothing.
Lex Fridman (44:14.080)
It's just two guys or two girls and that's it.
Tom Brands (44:16.720)
That's right.
Tom Brands (44:17.360)
And, and you, I mean, I'm not going to say you can't because somebody will get a hold of this
Lex Fridman (44:21.920)
and I'll get an email or a letter that says, you said blind people can't play baseball and blah, blah.
Lex Fridman (44:27.520)
I'm just saying that blind people can wrestle very effectively.
Tom Brands (44:31.040)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (44:31.520)
I've wrestled with, with my eyes shut.
Tom Brands (44:33.280)
I mean, was honest about it too.
Lex Fridman (44:35.920)
And it was, I was effective.
Lex Fridman (44:38.240)
So why, why was I able to be effective?
Tom Brands (44:40.080)
Because wrestling is a, is a, is a sport that you, you can overcome a lot, your demons that
Tom Brands (44:47.280)
you're overcoming, they're not limited with whether I'm blind or not.
Lex Fridman (44:54.400)
The demons that are overcoming are inside you.
Tom Brands (44:56.400)
You have to overcome those demons from within.
Lex Fridman (44:59.600)
So what's the future of Iowa wrestling look like with this facility and this momentum you have now
Lex Fridman (45:04.800)
and this great group of guys you have now?
Tom Brands (45:06.560)
We have a good young group of guys and, um, you know, there is a lot of buzz in the program.
Lex Fridman (45:14.560)
And probably hasn't been this much buzz for quite some time.
Lex Fridman (45:18.560)
And our job is to, you know, be relaxed and be focused and not get caught up in the buzz.
Tom Brands (45:27.680)
Um, but we have to put it together and we have a catalyst Spencer Lee, but he's going to have to,
Lex Fridman (45:32.240)
he's going to have to get better.
Lex Fridman (45:34.400)
And we have some other catalysts as well that are, um, you know, going to help us in the future.
Lex Fridman (45:39.680)
Um, but they got to get better.
Lex Fridman (45:44.480)
And so all this stuff about independence and accountability and, you know, being able to
Tom Brands (45:51.520)
get better every day under duress and not knowing that you're getting better, but you are, you know,
Lex Fridman (45:59.200)
you know what that, you know what I mean by that?
Tom Brands (46:01.280)
Like the great thing about Gabo was wrestling for him was, is you were getting better and
Tom Brands (46:05.920)
you didn't know you were getting better.
Lex Fridman (46:07.280)
Well, yeah, just like you said, uh, grow from success.
Lex Fridman (46:10.800)
So even you, you never allow yourself to think that you're, that you're, you're getting good.
Tom Brands (46:16.400)
All of a sudden you do something in the practice room that you've been working on and all of a
Tom Brands (46:20.000)
sudden you hit it and it's like, it was automatic.
Lex Fridman (46:22.240)
And then that, you know, yeah, that multiplies success.
Lex Fridman (46:26.640)
And so if I may say, so you're a bit of a man of the Bible.
Lex Fridman (46:31.840)
What's, where do you go, what do you go to the Bible for your faith, strength, love, patience?
Tom Brands (46:39.760)
I talked about things that you can't control.
Lex Fridman (46:41.920)
You turn them over.
Lex Fridman (46:43.520)
So the biggest thing for me is I got to turn over the things that I can't control, turn them over
Lex Fridman (46:49.280)
to that power and I'm going to be a lot better off.
Lex Fridman (46:52.080)
And that's the reason why I'm not in the funny farm because very competitive to me.
Lex Fridman (46:57.760)
Yeah.
Tom Brands (46:58.240)
It's very serious that we, we know that these young wrestlers come to school here to be the
Tom Brands (47:05.760)
best that they can be and to accomplish goals that like me, when I was young, they've set out
Tom Brands (47:11.280)
to accomplish and they chose Iowa to do that.
Lex Fridman (47:14.480)
So we have to deliver.
Lex Fridman (47:16.560)
And because of that, um, peace with God, you know, it's peer, it's a peer motivation.
Lex Fridman (47:26.320)
It's a peer motivation and it's a peer platform.
Tom Brands (47:31.360)
It's not, it's not doing this for my ego.
Lex Fridman (47:36.080)
We're not corrupt people.
Tom Brands (47:37.920)
We're not liars and cheaters.
Lex Fridman (47:40.320)
And so often that gets in the way of a decent person.
Tom Brands (47:46.320)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (47:46.560)
First and foremost, you're a good person and God helps you be that.
Tom Brands (47:50.880)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (47:51.040)
And we're serious about wrestling.
Tom Brands (47:52.320)
Right.
Lex Fridman (47:55.920)
So a couple more questions.
Lex Fridman (47:58.480)
What's the role of family in wrestling?
Tom Brands (48:01.280)
You mentioned your wife, who I read, uh, turned you down when you asked her for a phone number,
Tom Brands (48:08.960)
said it's in the phone book.
Lex Fridman (48:10.400)
That's pretty smooth.
Tom Brands (48:11.680)
Her story of that is that she didn't want me to have to remember the number.
Lex Fridman (48:16.720)
And I say at this point, and I say, there's no way.
Lex Fridman (48:21.280)
And I remember it very clearly like, Hey, it's in the phone book.
Lex Fridman (48:24.320)
And I was like, okay, she's blowing me off.
Tom Brands (48:25.840)
That's okay.
Lex Fridman (48:28.240)
But luckily here's the thing with family.
Tom Brands (48:30.960)
I mean, we, we have great people in our program.
Lex Fridman (48:33.440)
We have great parents.
Tom Brands (48:34.720)
We have a culture of parents that that's part of the buzz.
Lex Fridman (48:39.760)
And this class that you see wrestling right now, that's been here a year now,
Tom Brands (48:43.440)
um, Lee, Mirren, Costello, Warner, and then Lugo was a transfer and I'm forgetting somebody.
Lex Fridman (48:49.040)
I don't want to forget anybody, but, um, these parents are phenomenal.
Lex Fridman (48:53.360)
And that's a different parental culture.
Tom Brands (48:56.560)
Um, so the Kemmerer's dad is the same and, and, um, so there's a lot of good there.
Lex Fridman (49:02.560)
And that, that's a big, that's a big, a big move because how we talk to parents, we don't
Lex Fridman (49:07.840)
talk to parents to get along with them.
Tom Brands (49:10.160)
We talk to parents to help them understand, you know, where we're at with their sons.
Lex Fridman (49:15.680)
And when you can have a direct conversation with a parent who helping his son or her son,
Tom Brands (49:21.200)
the mom helping her son to be accountable and to own it, then you can get a lot accomplished.
Lex Fridman (49:28.160)
And that's what we've been able to do.
Lex Fridman (49:29.680)
And so you're solving problems.
Lex Fridman (49:31.120)
Like I talked about earlier, um, that's part of the family.
Tom Brands (49:34.560)
The other part of the family is the coaches, um, are like family.
Tom Brands (49:38.960)
The other part of the family is the coaches, uh, significant others and wives are part
Tom Brands (49:44.480)
of the family.
Lex Fridman (49:45.520)
And we fed, you know, we fed 40 guys and an entire coaching staff and wives and their
Tom Brands (49:52.720)
children here at Thanksgiving, and that equals 70 people.
Lex Fridman (49:57.520)
And it's, it's fun.
Tom Brands (50:00.240)
It's fun.
Lex Fridman (50:01.360)
So family means administration.
Tom Brands (50:04.320)
Gary Varda, my, my athletic director gives us everything that we need to be successful.
Lex Fridman (50:09.600)
And he has an open mind for, for the sport of wrestling and wrestling is important in
Tom Brands (50:14.240)
Iowa.
Lex Fridman (50:14.720)
So that's a no brainer, but not if you're not a wrestling guy, but he sees we do it
Tom Brands (50:20.000)
the right way.
Lex Fridman (50:20.720)
And so the commitment is there from him.
Tom Brands (50:23.200)
If we were doofuses, you know, he, the commitment wouldn't be there.
Lex Fridman (50:28.320)
So family is, everybody's all in, I mean, it's from the wrestlers to the family.
Tom Brands (50:32.320)
It goes back to what I said earlier about our people.
Lex Fridman (50:35.200)
Our people are great.
Tom Brands (50:36.080)
Ryan Morty Star is great.
Lex Fridman (50:37.680)
Bobby Telford is great.
Tom Brands (50:39.760)
Bobby Telford took over for a guy named Ben Burhow, who is great.
Lex Fridman (50:44.320)
Our medical team is great.
Tom Brands (50:45.840)
Dr. Westerman, Dr. Wolf, Jesse Donaworth, our athletic trainer is great.
Lex Fridman (50:53.360)
Terry Brands is great.
Tom Brands (50:55.200)
Mariah Stickley and, and Elise Owens, our managers are great.
Lex Fridman (50:59.040)
My daughter's a manager as well.
Tom Brands (51:00.240)
It's great.
Lex Fridman (51:00.800)
They're, they're hardworking young women.
Tom Brands (51:03.120)
Our rest, our Hawkeye Wrestling Club is, is where it needs to be in terms of how they
Lex Fridman (51:09.120)
help in their role.
Lex Fridman (51:11.360)
And now we have four women in there and that's great.
Lex Fridman (51:16.240)
And, you know, at least one of their dads is super involved with us.
Tom Brands (51:20.480)
But, and so it's, one thing that I've learned is that you have to have that.
Lex Fridman (51:26.880)
And if you don't have that, then you have to address it quickly.
Lex Fridman (51:31.440)
And those outliers, you know, let's solve that problem.
Lex Fridman (51:34.240)
Let's get it out in the open here.
Lex Fridman (51:36.320)
And if they're, you know, if it doesn't work out, it's not going to work out.
Lex Fridman (51:39.840)
That's a heck of a Thanksgiving dinner.
Tom Brands (51:42.400)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (51:42.720)
Next year.
Tom Brands (51:43.200)
Well, I don't know if it'd be legal, but I'd have to check with our compliance and, you
Lex Fridman (51:48.000)
know, they'd have to vet you.
Tom Brands (51:49.840)
You could come, you can come and see what it's all about.
Lex Fridman (51:52.640)
This room is full.
Tom Brands (51:54.000)
Oh man.
Lex Fridman (51:57.280)
Well, yeah, I'll be back next year then.
Tom Brands (51:58.960)
All right.
Lex Fridman (51:59.440)
Awesome.
Tom Brands (52:00.400)
Last question.
Tom Brands (52:01.200)
In 2014, I watched this video four years ago of you competing in, I believe, your first
Tom Brands (52:10.320)
swim meet against your brother, Terry.
Lex Fridman (52:14.880)
And you came out victorious.
Tom Brands (52:17.200)
Not really.
Lex Fridman (52:18.880)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (52:19.200)
So let's, did you cheat?
Lex Fridman (52:21.360)
Here's what happened.
Tom Brands (52:22.400)
I had researched this thing because I'm, that's how I am.
Lex Fridman (52:26.640)
You practiced.
Tom Brands (52:27.600)
No, I didn't.
Lex Fridman (52:28.320)
But I researched it.
Tom Brands (52:29.120)
In swimming, if you flinch on that starter block, it's a false start.
Tom Brands (52:34.160)
You can't twitch a finger and because they would be doing that to get their buddy to
Lex Fridman (52:38.800)
move or the guy next to him, you know?
Lex Fridman (52:40.560)
So you have to be rock solid.
Tom Brands (52:43.280)
Well, when we went, Terry was leaning forward as the gun was going off.
Lex Fridman (52:47.280)
So he's moving.
Lex Fridman (52:48.240)
And so I was like, no, no, no, false start, no, no, no, no.
Lex Fridman (52:51.360)
And he couldn't hear me.
Tom Brands (52:52.080)
It was already in the water.
Lex Fridman (52:53.280)
And so he took off like a bat out of you know where for the end of the pool and couldn't
Tom Brands (52:57.920)
hear me and got to the end of the pool and it was a down and back.
Lex Fridman (53:01.360)
Well, that's a hard thing to do with a guy with no body fat.
Lex Fridman (53:05.280)
And so he burned a lot of energy and he come up on that end of the pool and he was like,
Lex Fridman (53:09.360)
where's, where's he at?
Tom Brands (53:10.160)
Cause he didn't see me.
Lex Fridman (53:11.760)
And so we stopped him and then he came back and then we went another one and I beat him.
Tom Brands (53:15.600)
Um, but it's the only time that, you know, I would say that he was tuckered out.
Lex Fridman (53:21.040)
And that's the reason why.
Tom Brands (53:22.720)
And, um, I'll also say this, we did a time where we timed my race, the one I won, and
Lex Fridman (53:31.920)
then we timed his first down to the wall.
Lex Fridman (53:35.200)
And then we timed his, the actual race where once he hit the wall, we timed him on the
Lex Fridman (53:39.440)
way back and he'd beat me.
Tom Brands (53:42.080)
That's the only time.
Lex Fridman (53:42.880)
The way back and he'd beat me now.
Tom Brands (53:45.600)
How's that for being a, that's pretty honest.
Lex Fridman (53:48.320)
That's pretty honest.
Tom Brands (53:49.520)
Accountable.
Lex Fridman (53:50.480)
Wow.
Tom Brands (53:51.200)
Person.
Lex Fridman (53:52.320)
And I'm going to tell you something else.
Tom Brands (53:53.440)
Getting in those shorts, those swim trunks.
Lex Fridman (53:55.680)
That's impressive.
Tom Brands (53:56.400)
They are tight.
Lex Fridman (53:57.520)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (53:58.400)
So is there, outside of wrestling, is there a thing that Terry got the better of you?
Tom Brands (54:05.120)
I mean, I guess this could count as one, uh, that you're still really bitter about that
Tom Brands (54:10.320)
you need to avenge.
Lex Fridman (54:11.280)
I mean, that's past.
Tom Brands (54:12.400)
I mean, we, he's got an UNO title.
Lex Fridman (54:14.480)
We have UNO world championships.
Tom Brands (54:16.800)
He's got an UNO title.
Lex Fridman (54:17.920)
I have, I have yet to have one.
Tom Brands (54:19.600)
Morningstar has two titles.
Lex Fridman (54:21.360)
That's unprecedented.
Lex Fridman (54:23.680)
So there's only four trophies out there and Terry's got one of those and I don't have
Lex Fridman (54:26.960)
one yet.
Tom Brands (54:27.440)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (54:27.920)
Well, it's still time.
Tom Brands (54:29.520)
Tom, thank you so much for letting a Russian with a tie into your home.
Lex Fridman (54:34.160)
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Tom Brands.
Tom Brands (54:36.640)
To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.
Lex Fridman (54:40.400)
And now let me leave you with some words from Marcus Aurelius.
Tom Brands (54:45.280)
The art of living is more like wrestling than dancing.
Lex Fridman (54:49.360)
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
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