Sarma Melngailis: Bad Vegan
音乐与艺术心理与人性技术与编程生物与进化政治与社会
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"Because I've listened to his podcast and people think that, I think people would assume that I don't like him because, or the whole like vegan thing and he's all about meat and they would think that I would think, no."
— Sarma Melngailis （1:50:27.240）
"So I think that a lot of the things that Mr. Fox, that he put forward, I couldn't understand it from the perspective of it being a lie because it just seemed too weird and crazy. So I think that this happens sometimes where you believe somebody because it seems so weird that they would lie about it."
— Sarma Melngailis （2:43:14.240）
"Can I just say, because Joe has an account for his dog, too. I just love when people do that. It's so great. Because I actually pretend in my mind, for some reason, I do think Leon has an account. Like, I don't. You forget that there's a human behind it."
— Sarma Melngailis （2:15:40.240）
"Or overusing gaslighting. And I worry that that would happen with sociopathy. I think people need to understand sociopathy. I think it's critical for humanity that people understand it."
— Sarma Melngailis （3:13:06.240）
"And I think that I've watched a lot of films and things and for a while right after that I might think, oh my God, I can't believe I ate this thing last week and now I'm gonna go back to being 100% vegan because I just watched this thing and it's fresh in my mind and now I'm thinking about it in a certain way."
— Sarma Melngailis （3:18:39.240）
🎙️ 完整对话（2837 条）
Lex Fridman (00:00.000)
he made me think that, you know, everything was going to be reversed and okay, and anybody that
Lex Fridman (00:05.360)
money was borrowed from, they would get it back, you know, maybe tenfold.
Lex Fridman (00:08.480)
And so it was this weird situation of having like one foot in his reality and potentially
Lex Fridman (00:16.240)
believing the things he was saying or even over time wanting to believe them more and more because
Lex Fridman (00:22.560)
the alternative was so, the alternative was worse. The alternative was like, was increasingly a
Sarma Melngailis (00:30.080)
bigger and bigger nightmare. The following is a conversation with Sarma Melengales,
Sarma Melngailis (00:36.720)
a chef and restaurateur who was the subject of the Netflix documentary Bad Vegan, Fame, Fraud
Lex Fridman (00:43.760)
and Fugitives, that documents the rise and fall of her vegan raw food restaurants in New York City
Sarma Melngailis (00:50.560)
that ended in what she called a road trip from hell, being arrested in Tennessee,
Sarma Melngailis (00:55.920)
her pleading guilty for stealing over two million dollars and serving four months at Rikers Island
Sarma Melngailis (01:02.480)
jail. Sarma disputes the veracity of the documentary and its conclusions, saying that
Sarma Melngailis (01:08.880)
she was misrepresented. So I wanted to talk to her to get the full story, to seek understanding of
Sarma Melngailis (01:15.600)
who she is as a human being, the good and the bad. This is the Lex Friedman podcast. To support it,
Sarma Melngailis (01:23.600)
please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Sarma Melengales.
Sarma Melngailis (01:30.800)
You said that you did a lot of reading when you were growing up and you mentioned Fear
Lex Fridman (01:35.280)
and Loathing in Las Vegas by Hunter S. Thompson. So from the reading you've done in those early days,
Lex Fridman (01:42.400)
how did you see the world? Was it to you a beautiful place or a cruel place?
Sarma Melngailis (01:48.320)
I don't think I thought about the world.
Lex Fridman (01:50.880)
You were focused on family, just basic day to day life?
Sarma Melngailis (01:54.320)
I think I was focused on day to day. I had an awareness of not fitting in,
Lex Fridman (01:58.160)
but I think back then it felt like something was wrong versus some people are just that way.
Lex Fridman (02:04.960)
And speaking of books, I read a book called Party of One by a woman named Anneli Rufus
Sarma Melngailis (02:13.280)
that somebody gave me and suggested I read, and that helped a lot. That was one book that made me
Sarma Melngailis (02:18.720)
feel like, it made me understand things from the past that I hadn't understood before, specifically
Sarma Melngailis (02:26.480)
kind of feeling out of place, even among my family, which is where you're not supposed to
Sarma Melngailis (02:30.400)
feel out of place. Yeah, I'm not sure where I saw it, but I think you mentioned that you were
Sarma Melngailis (02:34.800)
a bit of a loner. And I also think I saw somewhere pictures of you with green hair
Lex Fridman (02:43.280)
in high school and a wild haircut. What was that about? Was that real? Am I just imagining?
Lex Fridman (02:49.680)
No, you're not imagining it. It's strange because I was kind of a loner,
Lex Fridman (02:56.640)
so it'd be strange to do something that calls so much attention to yourself. Because back then,
Sarma Melngailis (03:00.640)
I mean, I grew up in a suburb of Boston, in Newton, and anybody that was there around that
Sarma Melngailis (03:08.320)
time, probably if you said that girl with green hair or blue hair, blue most of the time, they
Sarma Melngailis (03:14.080)
would remember seeing me walking down the street because it stood out like crazy, especially back
Sarma Melngailis (03:18.240)
then. Now it wouldn't stand out so much, but back then it really stood out. So I was trying to think
Sarma Melngailis (03:25.760)
about why I did that when I was kind of shy and on the one hand wouldn't want to bring attention
Sarma Melngailis (03:35.280)
to myself, but I did something that did. And it wasn't, my family, to their credit,
Sarma Melngailis (03:43.440)
they were fine with it. So it wasn't a rebellion against them or anything like that.
Sarma Melngailis (03:48.080)
They were fine with it. I don't think they loved it, but...
Lex Fridman (03:50.400)
Your dad was a physicist at MIT. Yes. So he was cool with your green hair,
Sarma Melngailis (03:58.240)
when you're a rebellion. That's just the way of life.
Sarma Melngailis (04:00.480)
He was fine with the green hair, but I think in some ways maybe they had to be fine with it because
Sarma Melngailis (04:05.200)
I didn't cause problems otherwise. And I got good grades in school. I was a very low maintenance
Sarma Melngailis (04:14.320)
child, I think. Even with the green hair. So Hunter S. Thompson wrote a lot of good stuff.
Sarma Melngailis (04:23.440)
He has a lot of just brilliant quotes, a lot of brilliant lines. So one of the ones I love is,
Sarma Melngailis (04:30.240)
life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a
Sarma Melngailis (04:34.880)
pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke,
Lex Fridman (04:39.760)
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, wow, what a ride.
Lex Fridman (04:47.520)
What do you think about that? Is that good life advice from Hunter S. Thompson?
Sarma Melngailis (04:52.880)
I think so. I think he followed it, right? Somewhere I heard recently what he consumed
Sarma Melngailis (05:01.280)
in a day and it was kind of astonishing. It's funny, when I was in college,
Sarma Melngailis (05:07.120)
there were always really interesting people coming through, speakers and whatnot,
Lex Fridman (05:10.960)
and I tended to not go to events and whatnot. But in the four years I was there,
Sarma Melngailis (05:16.160)
really interesting people came through and gave talks. I don't know, just a lot of famous people.
Lex Fridman (05:24.240)
But then one day Hunter S. Thompson came to speak and that was the only one I attended.
Lex Fridman (05:28.320)
Oh, wow.
Sarma Melngailis (05:29.040)
That was the only interesting person who came to speak on the campus that I attended,
Lex Fridman (05:33.600)
was Hunter S. Thompson. And he had a glass of whatever it was, whiskey.
Lex Fridman (05:40.000)
And I don't remember a whole lot about it, but it was entertaining.
Lex Fridman (05:44.400)
And yeah, I mean, later in his life, he started making less and less sense,
Lex Fridman (05:48.720)
but he was still somehow embodying the crazy that he represented throughout his life. The boldness,
Sarma Melngailis (05:54.800)
the fearlessness, the wildness, all that kind of stuff. And we'll talk about Johnny Depp a
Sarma Melngailis (05:58.640)
little bit too. Funny enough, there's like a echo. Obviously, Johnny Depp played him,
Sarma Melngailis (06:05.280)
or he starred in a film, Unloathing, and they hung out together. And it just seemed to somehow,
Sarma Melngailis (06:10.560)
like the universe rhymes in these two individuals. They're both madmen in different kinds of ways.
Lex Fridman (06:16.640)
So you also told me that Leon the Professional is one of your favorite films. It's also the
Lex Fridman (06:23.040)
reason you named your dog Leon. So what do you find beautiful and powerful about this film?
Lex Fridman (06:29.520)
I've watched it a bunch of times, but it's been a while since I've watched it.
Lex Fridman (06:33.280)
So for people who haven't watched it, there's a guy named Leon played by Jean Reno. There's a
Sarma Melngailis (06:41.440)
young girl, I don't know, 13, 14, Matilda played by Natalie Portman. And she's abused.
Sarma Melngailis (06:50.080)
She has a really hard life. Her parents are, spoiler alert, murdered. And then she finds
Sarma Melngailis (06:58.400)
protection under this fella, Leon, who also happens to be a professional assassin.
Lex Fridman (07:10.960)
And he is also kind of a Forrest Gump type character. Like he's a really simple, simple human.
Sarma Melngailis (07:16.640)
He almost, he seems to be like the immature one or like rather the one who's young. And she seems
Sarma Melngailis (07:23.040)
to have a wisdom far beyond her age because of the hard life she had to live through. And then
Sarma Melngailis (07:28.960)
they're here huddling together from the cruelty of the world and finding connection.
Sarma Melngailis (07:37.840)
Yeah, I think it's one of those films where there's so many interesting things about it,
Lex Fridman (07:41.520)
but I'm sure one of them is just the contradiction of him being a caring person and reluctant to get
Sarma Melngailis (07:49.520)
attached to her. He tries to, I think he knows he's very reluctant to get attached to her in
Sarma Melngailis (07:54.800)
the beginning. And so you see all of his humanity, but yet he's also an assassin that kills people. So
Sarma Melngailis (08:04.160)
that's interesting. And I think probably a psychoanalyst would have a field day with
Lex Fridman (08:09.040)
why I like that movie so much. And I haven't gone there myself, but there's something I think about
Sarma Melngailis (08:16.560)
she, even in the brief part that depicts her in the beginning, it seems clear that she's sort of
Sarma Melngailis (08:23.760)
out of place in her family. And then, yeah, there's all kinds of interesting things about
Sarma Melngailis (08:32.800)
their relationship along the way. What I like about that movie, and I had to think about it
Sarma Melngailis (08:37.600)
recently because I've read stuff about it that bothered me. Or it bothered me the fact that I
Sarma Melngailis (08:44.160)
haven't really thought about it before. For people who haven't watched the movie, so here's a young
Sarma Melngailis (08:49.200)
underage girl who kind of comes on to him. First of all, I think she actually just doesn't know what
Sarma Melngailis (08:57.760)
like familial love is. So this is the only way she knows how to express love. That's one. And two is,
Sarma Melngailis (09:05.840)
a lot of bad people in this world would take advantage of that. And the fact that she finally
Sarma Melngailis (09:15.280)
met a human being who doesn't, and is just there to protect her. That's a real sort of, I don't
Sarma Melngailis (09:24.720)
know, a powerful statement of what it means to be sort of like a father figure, I suppose,
Sarma Melngailis (09:30.080)
a protector. So that, that to me, I love the idea of being sort of the protector. That there's
Sarma Melngailis (09:39.680)
something, like something worthwhile in this world to protect amidst all the cruelty that's all
Sarma Melngailis (09:46.640)
around. That's a beautiful kind of, you're basically saving this young human's, or you're
Sarma Melngailis (09:56.400)
repairing this young human's path to love, to real love in life. Because that idea of love was
Sarma Melngailis (10:08.160)
destroyed for her. Just family, everything is sort of, everything around her is broken. And he's kind
Lex Fridman (10:18.640)
of repairing it by reestablishing what that kind of love can be. I don't know.
Lex Fridman (10:22.640)
And the plant. They saved the plant also.
Sarma Melngailis (10:27.600)
Well, there's also just a simple, the simplicity of the film, just from a cinematic perspective,
Sarma Melngailis (10:32.240)
is beautiful. The music, the way it looks, the minimalism.
Lex Fridman (10:36.800)
Even the violence was beautiful.
Sarma Melngailis (10:39.040)
Yeah, violence. It was over the top. And also the bad guy, the bad cop, played by Gary Oldman.
Lex Fridman (10:49.040)
Yeah, he was amazing.
Sarma Melngailis (10:50.080)
Yeah, I think he was listening to Beethoven or something like that. And he was taking some sort
Sarma Melngailis (10:55.920)
of pills and drugs of some kind. And so there was a kind of, like it's part of the orchestra,
Sarma Melngailis (11:02.080)
like the violence was part of the, of some kind of musical creation.
Sarma Melngailis (11:08.720)
Yeah, it's interesting because I turn away from violence or films usually that have violence or
Sarma Melngailis (11:15.840)
TV or anything that has that sort of element to it, except in certain cases where...
Lex Fridman (11:24.560)
Where the violence is beautiful.
Lex Fridman (11:26.480)
Yeah, yeah. Or did you see the movie True Romance?
Lex Fridman (11:32.960)
Yes.
Sarma Melngailis (11:33.360)
That's my second favorite movie.
Lex Fridman (11:35.280)
Okay, that's probably my favorite movie.
Sarma Melngailis (11:37.840)
Oh, well, interesting. That's my second favorite movie.
Sarma Melngailis (11:40.080)
That's a more simple kind of love, but also with the violence that is beautiful,
Sarma Melngailis (11:45.600)
I suppose you could say.
Sarma Melngailis (11:46.560)
Yeah. And my favorite scene is the one with Patricia Arquette and James Gandolfini.
Sarma Melngailis (11:52.480)
Oh yeah, where she, there's a shotgun involved.
Lex Fridman (11:55.280)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (11:56.000)
Yeah. And then...
Lex Fridman (11:57.440)
It actually makes me cry every time I see it, for some reason.
Lex Fridman (12:01.360)
So for people who haven't seen the film, I think, I think he's actually, I think he's hitting her
Sarma Melngailis (12:12.320)
or like there's blood and violence and so on because she's resisting being murdered.
Sarma Melngailis (12:18.160)
Oh yeah, there's a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of violence. And then, you know,
Sarma Melngailis (12:20.880)
he throws her into the glass, the shower thing, and she's all cut up and beat up and...
Sarma Melngailis (12:28.560)
Oh, and she laughs.
Sarma Melngailis (12:30.240)
Yeah, there's just so much passion in it. She knows she's going to, or in that moment she knows
Sarma Melngailis (12:37.200)
or thinks she knows that she's going to die anyway, because she knows he's going to kill her.
Lex Fridman (12:42.640)
So she kind of gives it her, gives it all she has.
Lex Fridman (12:46.800)
But she also just has guts, she's not afraid.
Lex Fridman (12:50.000)
Yeah. Well, and also she's, you know, she loves Clarence.
Sarma Melngailis (12:55.440)
Yeah. The love comes through through that violence. Yeah.
Lex Fridman (12:58.000)
Yeah. Just like Clarence, her fella in that film
Sarma Melngailis (13:05.040)
has the same kind of thing when he visits...
Lex Fridman (13:06.880)
Well, it was Gary Oldman again.
Sarma Melngailis (13:08.400)
It was Gary Oldman again. That's right. The pimp.
Lex Fridman (13:10.640)
Looking very different.
Sarma Melngailis (13:11.440)
Drexel.
Lex Fridman (13:12.240)
Drexel, yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (13:13.280)
Yeah. And he's also fearless in that interaction saying she's now mine.
Sarma Melngailis (13:18.640)
It's interesting. That movie is so romantic. And happy ending, spoiler alert, in a way.
Sarma Melngailis (13:24.320)
That's what I like about it too, because I feel like some movies should come with...
Sarma Melngailis (13:28.640)
I don't want to watch a movie if it's going to be devastating, usually, unless it's
Sarma Melngailis (13:33.040)
worthwhile in some other way, but I'm kind of sensitive and I don't want...
Lex Fridman (13:37.920)
I don't like movies that have a terrible ending, you know? I mean,
Sarma Melngailis (13:42.880)
there's a book I read because it got so many good reviews,
Lex Fridman (13:46.000)
and the very last scene the woman steps in front of a train and it was like...
Sarma Melngailis (13:49.280)
So, I'm partial to movies with happy endings.
Lex Fridman (13:52.880)
Leon ends with loss, Leon, the movie.
Sarma Melngailis (13:58.320)
Right, but it's still inspiring.
Lex Fridman (14:00.800)
A love persists in some kind of form.
Sarma Melngailis (14:03.360)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (14:04.000)
She persists.
Lex Fridman (14:04.960)
And the plant.
Lex Fridman (14:05.760)
And the plant.
Sarma Melngailis (14:08.800)
Okay, sure, sure. True Romance does have one of the...
Lex Fridman (14:12.080)
I mean, it's probably unhealthy.
Sarma Melngailis (14:14.080)
That ending scene is just amazing.
Lex Fridman (14:16.080)
You're so cool when you're in the movie.
Sarma Melngailis (14:18.080)
You're so cool where she... Is that one the one where she just kind of
Lex Fridman (14:22.800)
looks at Clarence and her son and child or whatever and she's saying,
Sarma Melngailis (14:28.560)
you're so cool, you're so cool. Yeah.
Lex Fridman (14:32.400)
That's love.
Sarma Melngailis (14:33.920)
I just thought that movie has so much in it because it's, you know,
Lex Fridman (14:37.520)
it's funny and there's so many good actors in that film.
Lex Fridman (14:41.920)
And Brad Pitt plays in that film a pivotal role of Pothead on couch.
Lex Fridman (14:47.520)
Yeah, they're all so good and funny.
Lex Fridman (14:50.000)
And Michael Rapaport and even Val Kilmer,
Lex Fridman (14:53.760)
people don't realize he's in the movie because he doesn't look like himself.
Lex Fridman (14:57.840)
Wait, what did Val Kilmer play?
Lex Fridman (14:59.040)
Val Kilmer's in the very end.
Lex Fridman (15:02.080)
You know when there's like the Elvis sitting there talking to him in the end?
Lex Fridman (15:07.120)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (15:07.760)
That's Val Kilmer.
Lex Fridman (15:10.800)
Yeah, you don't notice it unless you somehow either are very perceptive
Sarma Melngailis (15:15.520)
or noticed it in the credits.
Lex Fridman (15:17.280)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (15:17.680)
And Quentin Tarantino wrote the film, I think.
Lex Fridman (15:20.960)
Yes.
Sarma Melngailis (15:21.360)
Which is interesting.
Lex Fridman (15:23.280)
Directed by Tony Scott and the music is beautiful too.
Lex Fridman (15:28.000)
And Christopher Walken and Dennis Hopper.
Lex Fridman (15:33.440)
Dennis Hopper.
Sarma Melngailis (15:34.080)
Dennis Hopper plays Clarence's dad and they have this very racist sounding scene.
Lex Fridman (15:41.200)
But the big important aspect of that scene is it's a father willing to die to protect the son.
Sarma Melngailis (15:50.880)
I mean, it's so much beautiful violence in that film.
Lex Fridman (15:53.840)
There is.
Sarma Melngailis (15:55.120)
There is.
Lex Fridman (15:55.600)
I love that film so much.
Lex Fridman (15:57.520)
And she's a prostitute or not really part time, short time.
Lex Fridman (16:02.640)
No, it was her first time.
Sarma Melngailis (16:03.840)
First time.
Lex Fridman (16:04.800)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (16:05.600)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (16:06.320)
And he saved her.
Sarma Melngailis (16:07.200)
My third favorite film has no violence whatsoever.
Lex Fridman (16:16.160)
What's your third?
Sarma Melngailis (16:17.440)
A Room with a View.
Lex Fridman (16:20.320)
I feel like you'd like it.
Sarma Melngailis (16:24.640)
I forget the author.
Lex Fridman (16:25.520)
It's a book and I read the book much later.
Lex Fridman (16:27.760)
But it's Helena Bonham Carter and Daniel Day Lewis is in it and Julian Sands.
Lex Fridman (16:40.560)
Daniel Day Lewis is a fascinating character.
Sarma Melngailis (16:43.120)
He's amazing in this film because he plays, he's very funny.
Sarma Melngailis (16:47.600)
He sort of plays a, he's a comical character, which is unlike most of what he does, I think.
Sarma Melngailis (16:53.920)
I don't watch a ton of movies.
Lex Fridman (16:55.280)
So, but yeah, he played, his role is funny.
Sarma Melngailis (17:01.040)
Well, that's a heck of a top three.
Lex Fridman (17:05.200)
You brought me some books, some bread and books.
Sarma Melngailis (17:08.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (17:09.200)
Some Russian bread, Russian inspired bread.
Sarma Melngailis (17:12.480)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (17:12.800)
I mean, it's Latvian, but it's similar to.
Sarma Melngailis (17:15.920)
Close enough.
Lex Fridman (17:16.720)
Similar to what's made in Russia.
Lex Fridman (17:18.480)
And it's made at a Russian bakery.
Lex Fridman (17:20.080)
Where your dad is from, right?
Sarma Melngailis (17:21.680)
My dad is from Latvia.
Lex Fridman (17:22.720)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (17:22.960)
So you got me some books, Beautiful Ruins.
Lex Fridman (17:26.240)
Yeah, and if you never read them, who cares?
Sarma Melngailis (17:28.880)
That's totally fine.
Sarma Melngailis (17:29.600)
You know, people give you books and then you feel like you just, you sort of feel like.
Sarma Melngailis (17:34.000)
I see this as, we'll talk about this.
Lex Fridman (17:36.400)
This is part therapy session.
Sarma Melngailis (17:37.760)
I don't feel the need to satisfy people's happiness.
Lex Fridman (17:42.160)
That's a good thing.
Sarma Melngailis (17:43.040)
Okay, so, but it could also be an opportunity to experience something I never otherwise would have.
Lex Fridman (17:50.640)
So Beautiful Ruins.
Sarma Melngailis (17:53.200)
It's a book that made me laugh and cry.
Lex Fridman (17:56.000)
And it's just a happy story.
Lex Fridman (17:58.160)
And for some reason, I don't know exactly why, but for some reason, when you asked me to come,
Lex Fridman (18:04.720)
it just, I thought, oh, I'm going to bring a copy of that book.
Sarma Melngailis (18:08.800)
That's, you just felt it came, the voice told you.
Lex Fridman (18:11.840)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (18:12.080)
There's others, Darkness Visible.
Lex Fridman (18:14.640)
These are more.
Sarma Melngailis (18:15.440)
A memoir of madness, compelling, harrowing, a vivid portrait of a debilitating disorder.
Lex Fridman (18:21.360)
It offers the solace of shared experience.
Sarma Melngailis (18:24.480)
The New York Times, William Styron.
Sarma Melngailis (18:26.800)
There's a little bit about this book that reminds me of the Carl Diceroth book because
Sarma Melngailis (18:35.440)
he writes about his own condition in, I mean, he's an amazing writer.
Lex Fridman (18:40.480)
So he writes about it in this beautiful way.
Lex Fridman (18:42.480)
And oddly enough, in some ways, it's kind of delightful.
Lex Fridman (18:46.560)
So it's not at all a depressing book.
Sarma Melngailis (18:49.120)
At least I didn't find it depressing at all.
Lex Fridman (18:50.800)
I don't think it is.
Lex Fridman (18:52.720)
But he writes about his own experience with depression in such a beautiful way.
Lex Fridman (18:59.840)
My own copy is full of underlines.
Sarma Melngailis (19:04.000)
I would love that copy too.
Sarma Melngailis (19:06.240)
I would love to look into the underlines and then the books with notes, those little
Sarma Melngailis (19:12.320)
secrets that people leave traces.
Lex Fridman (19:13.920)
That's part of why I like paper books is because I underline.
Sarma Melngailis (19:17.440)
I tend to underline like crazy.
Lex Fridman (19:18.880)
The Carl Diceroth book is full of underlines too.
Sarma Melngailis (19:22.400)
Well, I do the same thing on Kindle, but and then you can actually more effectively go
Lex Fridman (19:27.280)
back to the things you've underlined because you highlight and so on.
Lex Fridman (19:30.000)
But in fact, when you underline on paper books, you sometimes never go back, which always
Lex Fridman (19:38.320)
makes me sad.
Lex Fridman (19:39.200)
To the book?
Lex Fridman (19:39.920)
To the things you've underlined.
Lex Fridman (19:41.280)
In the paper books?
Lex Fridman (19:42.320)
Yeah, in the paper books.
Sarma Melngailis (19:42.960)
Oh, I do.
Lex Fridman (19:43.360)
I go back.
Sarma Melngailis (19:44.320)
Yeah, I go back a lot.
Lex Fridman (19:45.680)
Do you wonder what the heck you were thinking about when you wrote something?
Sarma Melngailis (19:49.440)
No.
Lex Fridman (19:49.840)
Well, sometimes I underline things that are...
Sarma Melngailis (19:51.600)
Well, also what I do is I have in a whole file in Evernote of transcribed quotes from
Lex Fridman (19:57.440)
books, ones that I want to save.
Lex Fridman (19:59.920)
So I might underline a lot of things in a book and then maybe like a third of them,
Lex Fridman (1:00:08.160)
And so you don't have any time to think. So you're just kind of constantly running and you're confused and then things are happening.
Sarma Melngailis (1:00:14.240)
That's funny. I have some quotes in my book draft because I listen to a lot of podcasts.
Sarma Melngailis (1:00:18.320)
I don't know what the logistics are of like crediting a quote from a podcast in a book.
Lex Fridman (1:00:24.560)
But I have a couple. I think it was Andrew Huberman on Joe Rogan said something about if a animal, if a human or animal,
Lex Fridman (1:00:37.360)
I don't know how he would know, the human or animal is stressed.
Lex Fridman (1:00:42.240)
And I'm paraphrasing this horribly, but they're much more easily prone to be, not prone to, but forced into delusional thinking.
Lex Fridman (1:00:53.840)
And so that quote resonated for me because he kept me in this incredibly stressed out, afraid, confused state.
Lex Fridman (1:01:01.280)
And then whatever he's sort of planting in my mind, I'm going to be that much more likely to just kind of go along with it.
Sarma Melngailis (1:01:07.600)
Well, we'll see how this whole journey ends. Let's actually just step back a little bit and just looking at the employees at the restaurant and so on.
Lex Fridman (1:01:16.080)
Do you have remorse for what happened, especially from the perspective of the employees and the staff?
Sarma Melngailis (1:01:21.920)
Yeah. I mean, hurting them was sort of the last thing that I would ever have wanted to do.
Lex Fridman (1:01:27.600)
And in part, I mean, there was financial harm, but I don't I don't know whether it's more important or not. But, you know, it was taking a place that was very much like a family to them.
Lex Fridman (1:01:44.640)
And it was as if I destroyed it. And so I think that because we were so much like a family, it was almost as if.
Sarma Melngailis (1:01:54.480)
Like mom went off the deep end and got together with some cuckoo abusive guy and and sort of abandoned them and they didn't know what was going on and what was happening.
Lex Fridman (1:02:04.880)
And so do you regret lying to them?
Sarma Melngailis (1:02:08.160)
I regret lying to anybody in all of those circumstances, but I wasn't lying.
Sarma Melngailis (1:02:19.360)
You know, he made me think that, you know, everything was going to be reversed and OK, and anybody that money was borrowed from, they would get it back, you know, maybe tenfold.
Lex Fridman (1:02:29.120)
And so it was this weird situation of having like one foot in his reality and potentially believing the things he was saying or even over time wanting to believe them more and more because the alternative was so.
Sarma Melngailis (1:02:47.280)
The alternative was worse. The alternative was like. Was increasingly a bigger and bigger nightmare.
Lex Fridman (1:02:53.680)
So there's this whole situation where you're constantly giving him money, you're constantly borrowing and borrowing money.
Lex Fridman (1:02:59.280)
Well, this idea that it'll be repaid like a hundred X fold, right?
Sarma Melngailis (1:03:05.280)
Kind of like sort of like lying to somebody because you're planning their surprise party.
Sarma Melngailis (1:03:10.080)
You think like, well, I'm lying to somebody, but I'm but it's because there's a good reason.
Sarma Melngailis (1:03:15.760)
Yeah, you know, it's sort of that's not a good example.
Lex Fridman (1:03:18.160)
But but you could have not made it a surprise party and be like, pull him in onto the planning of the party and be honest about.
Sarma Melngailis (1:03:28.400)
Like everything that's happening, not in a negative way, but like get him in on the fact that, OK, I just need to give money to this guy, but we'll get he is a super rich person of some kind.
Lex Fridman (1:03:43.600)
And he'll repay.
Sarma Melngailis (1:03:47.120)
I mean, I wish I well.
Lex Fridman (1:03:49.920)
Because you're holding on to this time.
Sarma Melngailis (1:03:52.080)
That's part of the torture is that you're isolated and unable, unable to tell anybody.
Lex Fridman (1:03:58.800)
But you're not unable or he was telling you, you're not allowed to say anything to anybody.
Sarma Melngailis (1:04:03.120)
I mean, you're choosing not to say anything, but it's because of the sort of the weight of it, because it's embarrassing to sort of.
Lex Fridman (1:04:12.720)
Is it embarrassing something?
Lex Fridman (1:04:14.160)
I mean, why do you not tell others?
Lex Fridman (1:04:16.640)
You know, what is that?
Lex Fridman (1:04:18.960)
What's what's happening to the mind where you don't tell others?
Lex Fridman (1:04:23.040)
I don't know.
Sarma Melngailis (1:04:23.680)
You're part of why the story, you know, everything that happened is hard to summarize and talk about in any concise way is that.
Lex Fridman (1:04:34.400)
So much of it happens in this very slow, slow, slow way.
Sarma Melngailis (1:04:38.800)
And, you know, people always use the whole like frog in boiling water example so that by the time you realize you're fucked, it's too late.
Lex Fridman (1:04:50.240)
And and it seems hard to believe or understand other people because they see where you are or where you ended up and they think, well, how did you let that happen?
Sarma Melngailis (1:04:59.360)
Well, I don't know what I have willingly destroyed my life and hurt all the people I care about.
Sarma Melngailis (1:05:05.520)
And, you know, allowed my mother to get hurt and I wouldn't have ever willingly done that.
Lex Fridman (1:05:11.200)
So something else must have happened.
Lex Fridman (1:05:13.840)
And that's that's the part that's difficult to understand.
Sarma Melngailis (1:05:17.200)
Let me ask you about another hard question.
Lex Fridman (1:05:19.920)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:05:20.480)
Do you deserve most or all of the blame for the failure of the business or are others at fault too?
Lex Fridman (1:05:29.520)
Well, the business didn't fail.
Sarma Melngailis (1:05:30.880)
It was doing well and so it's closing is like it was destroyed.
Lex Fridman (1:05:39.520)
Who deserves the blame for that?
Sarma Melngailis (1:05:41.120)
I'm asking from your perspective when you think about it in the privacy in your mind.
Lex Fridman (1:05:47.840)
Are you angry at Anthony or are you angry yourself?
Sarma Melngailis (1:05:53.280)
Both.
Sarma Melngailis (1:05:53.840)
I think that in the privacy of my own mind and to everybody listening, it's it's I feel responsible.
Sarma Melngailis (1:06:06.400)
I feel responsible in the same way that if you kind of did something,
Sarma Melngailis (1:06:10.720)
if you were driving and you did something stupid and caused an accident in which other people died,
Sarma Melngailis (1:06:16.240)
you would feel, I think, horrifically responsible and you'd blame yourself because maybe you
Lex Fridman (1:06:21.760)
looked away or checked your phone or something.
Lex Fridman (1:06:27.440)
But you didn't intend to kill those people, of course.
Lex Fridman (1:06:31.280)
So for me, it's like I didn't intend to kill.
Sarma Melngailis (1:06:36.320)
You know, sometimes I say like my own child, I don't know if that's offensive to some people,
Lex Fridman (1:06:40.400)
but it's like as if I killed my own child.
Sarma Melngailis (1:06:43.600)
It was it was it was a business, but it was special.
Lex Fridman (1:06:46.000)
So I don't feel guilt.
Sarma Melngailis (1:06:52.480)
I feel responsibility.
Lex Fridman (1:06:54.400)
And then, you know, I'm angry at him, even though that anger is pointless.
Sarma Melngailis (1:07:03.280)
OK, because this has come up, let's continue with the hard questions.
Lex Fridman (1:07:10.080)
Are they going to get easier?
Sarma Melngailis (1:07:11.120)
They're going to get easier.
Lex Fridman (1:07:11.840)
OK.
Sarma Melngailis (1:07:13.040)
Most of them are easy.
Lex Fridman (1:07:14.000)
This is this is fun.
Sarma Melngailis (1:07:14.960)
We're having fun.
Lex Fridman (1:07:16.080)
You posted on Instagram the ending.
Sarma Melngailis (1:07:21.040)
No, I'm going to say Instagram like it's Shakespeare.
Sarma Melngailis (1:07:23.600)
OK, the ending is disturbingly misleading, but still, I'm very grateful for this coverage.
Sarma Melngailis (1:07:29.760)
It's talking about the documentary, in quotes, documentary.
Sarma Melngailis (1:07:34.400)
I'm OK with the criticism and judgment, but would rather it be based on what's true.
Lex Fridman (1:07:39.520)
And then you say a couple more sentences and then you say,
Lex Fridman (1:07:43.360)
and then you say Leon, who has his own Instagram account.
Sarma Melngailis (1:07:47.120)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (1:07:47.520)
One lucky rescue dog says hello.
Sarma Melngailis (1:07:50.720)
He loves you all.
Lex Fridman (1:07:51.840)
Even if you call me a, quote, defective, arrogant sociopath, it's all OK.
Lex Fridman (1:07:58.800)
So the hard question, do you think you are in part a sociopath?
Lex Fridman (1:08:04.880)
No.
Lex Fridman (1:08:05.920)
Would you know it if you were?
Lex Fridman (1:08:07.440)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (1:08:07.760)
How does this work?
Lex Fridman (1:08:08.720)
So what have you learned from reading this book?
Sarma Melngailis (1:08:10.640)
I had all these interesting thoughts, all these sort of questions and thoughts about it,
Sarma Melngailis (1:08:14.480)
because the book I'm reading now that I'm only about a third of the way through,
Sarma Melngailis (1:08:18.560)
she talks about some of the things in the brain structure that are particular to sociopaths.
Lex Fridman (1:08:24.800)
And so then it makes you think, well, what if that could be tweaked in some way?
Lex Fridman (1:08:30.960)
Like, could you unsociopath a sociopath?
Lex Fridman (1:08:33.840)
Is it nature or nurture, I suppose is the question.
Sarma Melngailis (1:08:36.960)
I think it's both.
Lex Fridman (1:08:37.840)
I think it's genetic.
Lex Fridman (1:08:39.920)
And then it's like genes that are turned on by things like a particularly violent childhood
Lex Fridman (1:08:48.640)
or some sort of dysfunction.
Lex Fridman (1:08:50.160)
So I think somebody could have the gene, it's not turned on,
Lex Fridman (1:08:53.520)
and then the sociopaths have the gene and it's turned on.
Lex Fridman (1:09:00.080)
So sociopath means that you're not able to be empathetic
Lex Fridman (1:09:05.120)
or you're generally not empathetic to the suffering of others or to the emotions of others?
Sarma Melngailis (1:09:10.160)
It's a hollowness.
Lex Fridman (1:09:11.680)
So it's like you don't have just completely lacking the capacity.
Sarma Melngailis (1:09:18.160)
I mean, it's tragic because they wouldn't understand or feel love, but it's like a hollowness.
Lex Fridman (1:09:26.160)
And then something also about the wiring.
Lex Fridman (1:09:30.480)
And I think also because of that hollowness, they're able to incredibly quickly look at others
Lex Fridman (1:09:38.080)
and identify their insecurities and buttons and weak spots.
Lex Fridman (1:09:44.720)
So they're incredibly good at manipulation.
Lex Fridman (1:09:47.760)
Is that because they're just able to objectively observe the situation?
Sarma Melngailis (1:09:52.880)
Probably in part, but there was some other explanation
Lex Fridman (1:09:55.840)
related to the brain structure that I read somewhere that made sense to me.
Lex Fridman (1:09:59.040)
And I won't remember it because I don't usually...
Lex Fridman (1:10:02.240)
You're not Andrew Huberman who seems to reference perfectly every single line
Lex Fridman (1:10:07.760)
from every book or paper he's ever read?
Lex Fridman (1:10:10.080)
Yes.
Sarma Melngailis (1:10:10.400)
Right. I don't remember things in that way.
Lex Fridman (1:10:12.160)
I try to usually remember the conclusions.
Lex Fridman (1:10:14.960)
So I might remember that he might give a whole long explanation about why it's good to do this
Lex Fridman (1:10:21.120)
or to take this supplement.
Sarma Melngailis (1:10:23.040)
That's a bad habit I have.
Sarma Melngailis (1:10:24.240)
Sometimes I'll order supplements and then by the time they arrive, I've forgotten why.
Lex Fridman (1:10:27.760)
Why?
Lex Fridman (1:10:28.320)
I forgot why.
Sarma Melngailis (1:10:29.040)
Just take them all.
Lex Fridman (1:10:29.680)
I'm supposed to take them all.
Sarma Melngailis (1:10:30.240)
Harris Thompson, but the healthy version.
Sarma Melngailis (1:10:32.000)
I hope we get to talk about food because I feel like you have a brain that should be
Sarma Melngailis (1:10:37.520)
fed only the best food.
Lex Fridman (1:10:39.760)
Oh, wow.
Lex Fridman (1:10:40.480)
So we can talk about that later.
Sarma Melngailis (1:10:41.760)
I have a lot of philosophies about that, but certainly fluff is not in the best.
Lex Fridman (1:10:47.040)
What is best?
Lex Fridman (1:10:47.600)
We'll definitely talk about food throughout.
Lex Fridman (1:10:50.560)
What is best?
Lex Fridman (1:10:54.560)
That makes me think of Conan.
Lex Fridman (1:10:55.840)
And I just talked to Oliver Stone, who I didn't realize wrote Conan the Barbarian.
Lex Fridman (1:11:01.920)
Do you know that in my head I pictured Conan O Brien?
Lex Fridman (1:11:04.800)
That's what I was sitting there going, wait, why?
Lex Fridman (1:11:09.440)
I love him.
Lex Fridman (1:11:09.920)
But when you said that, I was like, why did that make you think of Conan O Brien?
Lex Fridman (1:11:14.000)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (1:11:14.480)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:11:14.880)
I love him so much.
Sarma Melngailis (1:11:16.320)
Such a brilliant human.
Lex Fridman (1:11:17.760)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (1:11:20.640)
Sociopathy.
Lex Fridman (1:11:21.840)
Sociopathy.
Sarma Melngailis (1:11:23.120)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:11:23.600)
So it's stuff about the brain, fine, but how do you know you're not a sociopath?
Lex Fridman (1:11:29.120)
Would you know it?
Lex Fridman (1:11:30.080)
Am I a sociopath?
Sarma Melngailis (1:11:31.520)
No.
Lex Fridman (1:11:32.000)
How would I know it?
Lex Fridman (1:11:32.560)
How do you know?
Lex Fridman (1:11:34.320)
Well, having listened to a lot.
Lex Fridman (1:11:36.400)
Well, wouldn't I be able to be good at faking it?
Lex Fridman (1:11:38.640)
Isn't that what?
Sarma Melngailis (1:11:39.440)
Well, because you would be out there.
Lex Fridman (1:11:40.640)
There's a mask on the cover of this book with lipstick.
Sarma Melngailis (1:11:43.440)
I don't think you would be doing the work that you're doing.
Lex Fridman (1:11:45.280)
I don't wear lipstick.
Sarma Melngailis (1:11:45.840)
You'd probably be running for office or a trader on Wall Street.
Sarma Melngailis (1:11:49.520)
Or one of the things about sociopaths is they kind of need like the stimulation of risk and danger.
Sarma Melngailis (1:11:59.120)
Well, a need.
Lex Fridman (1:12:03.280)
Okay, sure.
Sarma Melngailis (1:12:04.320)
More than average.
Lex Fridman (1:12:05.440)
I like, hmm, okay.
Lex Fridman (1:12:07.840)
But Wall Street, there's a fakeness, like I don't like the fakeness of the game of it.
Lex Fridman (1:12:13.920)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (1:12:14.420)
That's why I left.
Lex Fridman (1:12:15.600)
I didn't, I just, it was a strange environment.
Sarma Melngailis (1:12:19.600)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:12:20.720)
So you're not, you're not a quote defective, arrogant sociopath.
Lex Fridman (1:12:25.200)
What does defective even mean?
Lex Fridman (1:12:26.720)
Well, I think that somebody had just called me that.
Lex Fridman (1:12:28.880)
And I think that, you know, it's easy for people to say like, don't read the comments, but it's hard not to, because then also you'd miss the beautiful ones.
Lex Fridman (1:12:38.640)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (1:12:39.140)
Or sometimes like you have to go on there to check a private message and you just stuff, it's there, people saying terrible things.
Lex Fridman (1:12:47.440)
So I try to, people say, you know, don't pay attention to the comments, it's hard not to, but I try to.
Sarma Melngailis (1:12:56.320)
Even with the documentary, you try to still kind of see, to look, to look for the good ones, for the kind ones, for the supportive ones.
Sarma Melngailis (1:13:07.440)
Well, there were overwhelming kind comments and so that, that helped and felt a lot better, but sometimes, sometimes the, the negative comments are based on, you know, they're based on false information.
Lex Fridman (1:13:23.840)
So if somebody understood, if somebody knew everything that happened and then wanted to judge me or say things like that's somehow, at least that's all right.
Lex Fridman (1:13:32.680)
But people saying these things based on things that are totally false, it's just, it's hard, it's hard to just let that go.
Lex Fridman (1:13:45.600)
But I know that people also say things, you know, for their own personal reasons.
Sarma Melngailis (1:13:55.120)
I had a fascinating exchange with somebody who direct messaged me and called me trash.
Sarma Melngailis (1:14:00.720)
You responded.
Lex Fridman (1:14:02.720)
I responded because it was, no, it was amazing.
Lex Fridman (1:14:06.720)
So I would do this for a while, it's sort of like, I might be procrastinating or, but I would scroll through because the private messages were overwhelming and there's still just this massive backlog that I'll never probably get to read.
Lex Fridman (1:14:22.240)
But the one that called you trash as a pickup, as an opener, you were like, this is interesting.
Lex Fridman (1:14:28.240)
I just was in a mood and so I responded and I wish I hadn't deleted it because I sort of deleted a bunch and then I was like, oh, why did I delete that one?
Sarma Melngailis (1:14:38.240)
Because I was curious what exactly I said to him, but I responded to him in a nice way and then he responded back and then it started this whole back and forth conversation.
Lex Fridman (1:14:48.240)
So he was kind quickly or no?
Lex Fridman (1:14:52.240)
And then also like wanted to get to know me and lives in Pennsylvania and was like, I'll come to you.
Lex Fridman (1:14:58.240)
You realize if we, you know, if somehow this just turned into like, that would be our, how did you meet story?
Lex Fridman (1:15:04.240)
Well, he called me trash online.
Sarma Melngailis (1:15:06.240)
That's a pretty good.
Lex Fridman (1:15:08.240)
He ended up having such an insightful comment.
Sarma Melngailis (1:15:12.240)
I just found it interesting and I think at first he said, I never imagined you'd reply, which is, you know, it's like part of the whole thing with social media, although this guy wasn't anonymous.
Lex Fridman (1:15:22.240)
Was not anonymous.
Sarma Melngailis (1:15:24.240)
No, he had a, I think he had a private account, but it's like his name and his face was there.
Lex Fridman (1:15:28.240)
People forget that you're a human being when they message you.
Sarma Melngailis (1:15:30.240)
Exactly.
Lex Fridman (1:15:32.240)
Folks, when you message me, I'm a human being.
Lex Fridman (1:15:34.240)
So I told him that that was, you know, like that, that I was hurtful and, and I guess I wanted to understand more why he said it.
Lex Fridman (1:15:42.240)
And it was surprisingly insightful, but he said something about, again, I wish I hadn't deleted it.
Lex Fridman (1:15:48.240)
But he, he was like, I guess I was just angry because like that guy, he said something like, I guess I was just angry because that guy got you and I would have, you know, so it made me think of the whole like sort of.
Sarma Melngailis (1:16:08.240)
Incel jealousy thing that can be very terrifying if you're female is that like, if you reject a guy, they might turn around and be violent or angry at you.
Sarma Melngailis (1:16:22.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:16:24.240)
And so his.
Sarma Melngailis (1:16:26.240)
Well, to be fair, there's a dormant anger in probably all of us.
Sarma Melngailis (1:16:30.240)
I believe there's a capacity for cruelty and anger and destruction all of us and the whole struggle of life is to emphasize the good stuff.
Sarma Melngailis (1:16:40.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:16:41.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:16:42.240)
So it's not just an Incel thing.
Lex Fridman (1:16:44.240)
It's true for men and women, both capable of cruelty.
Sarma Melngailis (1:16:48.240)
That's, that is very true.
Lex Fridman (1:16:49.240)
But this one guy, so then you put on my therapist hat.
Lex Fridman (1:16:53.240)
We started, what did we start with?
Lex Fridman (1:16:57.240)
I already forgot, but the, oh, Leon.
Sarma Melngailis (1:17:00.240)
He's coming back to sociopath.
Sarma Melngailis (1:17:02.240)
No, no, just, you know, maybe it's not the best idea to answer the comments that start with your trash.
Sarma Melngailis (1:17:11.240)
I don't do it all the time.
Lex Fridman (1:17:12.240)
It just, I happened upon that one and I was just in a certain mood.
Sarma Melngailis (1:17:15.240)
I was just in a certain mood.
Sarma Melngailis (1:17:16.240)
Well, let's, let's further offline sort of discuss this mood that you're in because it might get you in trouble at some point in your future.
Sarma Melngailis (1:17:26.240)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:17:30.240)
Can we just jump back?
Lex Fridman (1:17:31.240)
Speaking of guys that say as an opening to your trash, how did you and Anthony Stranges meet?
Lex Fridman (1:17:40.240)
Can we jump around and tell some of the details here?
Sarma Melngailis (1:17:43.240)
Because that, I believe the documentary doesn't cover that that well.
Lex Fridman (1:17:46.240)
It's not clear.
Sarma Melngailis (1:17:47.240)
There's some Twitter interactions and you've kind of assumed.
Sarma Melngailis (1:17:54.240)
By the way, I do think you need some social media coaching on this because I think, you know, I have some books you need to read, I think.
Sarma Melngailis (1:18:05.240)
Some manuals on how to use Twitter properly.
Lex Fridman (1:18:08.240)
But anyway, apparently you kind of thought that this person who turned out to be, what was his name?
Sarma Melngailis (1:18:15.240)
He called himself Shane Fox, but he turned out to be Anthony Stranges, that he was somehow friends with Al Baldwin because of their friendly interaction on Twitter.
Lex Fridman (1:18:24.240)
And so you started interacting with him.
Lex Fridman (1:18:26.240)
And then there was, how did that escalate quickly to meeting?
Lex Fridman (1:18:32.240)
It escalated slowly.
Lex Fridman (1:18:34.240)
And I think I'm sure it was intentional because had I met him right away, I would have probably thought like, oh, he's not what I thought he was and no thanks.
Lex Fridman (1:18:46.240)
But it was a long time.
Sarma Melngailis (1:18:49.240)
It was many weeks of back and forth conversation digitally one way or another.
Lex Fridman (1:18:54.240)
So it was, you know, via Twitter and then via direct message and then we both played Words with Friends back then and we would message in Words with Friends and then eventually, you know, we exchanged phone numbers.
Lex Fridman (1:19:07.240)
How does Words with Friends work?
Lex Fridman (1:19:09.240)
What's that?
Sarma Melngailis (1:19:10.240)
I know that's a popular game.
Lex Fridman (1:19:12.240)
Is that like Scrabble?
Sarma Melngailis (1:19:13.240)
It's like Scrabble and you're playing other people and then there's like a chat function.
Lex Fridman (1:19:18.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:19:19.240)
And you can chat with them.
Lex Fridman (1:19:20.240)
Right.
Lex Fridman (1:19:21.240)
And so you were this intellectual stimulating game and you were what?
Lex Fridman (1:19:25.240)
Like flirting and that kind of stuff.
Sarma Melngailis (1:19:28.240)
Like witty banter.
Lex Fridman (1:19:30.240)
Yes.
Sarma Melngailis (1:19:31.240)
AKA flirting.
Lex Fridman (1:19:33.240)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (1:19:34.240)
But all of that lasted a really long time and he would give me like little tiny bits and pieces of information about himself that made him seem kind of mysterious.
Lex Fridman (1:19:47.240)
This is a dark, mysterious man who was a Navy SEAL, strong.
Sarma Melngailis (1:19:52.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:19:53.240)
And he would always imply things versus say them outright.
Lex Fridman (1:19:56.240)
So you're kind of always guessing and filling things in.
Lex Fridman (1:19:59.240)
Clint Eastwood type of character.
Sarma Melngailis (1:20:00.240)
He's not going to say it outright.
Lex Fridman (1:20:02.240)
He's what?
Sarma Melngailis (1:20:03.240)
He's a Clint Eastwood type of character.
Lex Fridman (1:20:04.240)
He's not going to say it outright.
Sarma Melngailis (1:20:05.240)
Right.
Lex Fridman (1:20:06.240)
He's just going to act badass.
Sarma Melngailis (1:20:07.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:20:08.240)
Okay.
Sarma Melngailis (1:20:09.240)
All right.
Lex Fridman (1:20:10.240)
And plus intellectual because of Words with Friends.
Lex Fridman (1:20:14.240)
Is that still a thing by the way?
Lex Fridman (1:20:15.240)
Words with Friends?
Sarma Melngailis (1:20:16.240)
I think it still exists.
Lex Fridman (1:20:17.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:20:18.240)
But I feel like if I started playing it again, I would get a little addicted.
Lex Fridman (1:20:24.240)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (1:20:25.240)
Stick to the coffee addiction.
Sarma Melngailis (1:20:26.240)
One of the interesting things is that I used to think that he like used an app to look up things, but then he would do it in front of me.
Sarma Melngailis (1:20:35.240)
He was really good at it and he could look at the board and just like come up with a hundred point word that I'd never even heard of.
Lex Fridman (1:20:47.240)
So I think he had a little bit of that something going on in his brain that was like, I don't know, a little rain mannish or something in the way that he was able to recall.
Sarma Melngailis (1:20:57.240)
I think his recall is incredibly.
Lex Fridman (1:21:00.240)
It's important if you lie a lot.
Sarma Melngailis (1:21:03.240)
If you lie a lot, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:21:04.240)
To have good recall.
Sarma Melngailis (1:21:05.240)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:21:06.240)
So when, it's okay.
Lex Fridman (1:21:08.240)
So how did it escalate slowly from Words with Friends to meeting in real life?
Lex Fridman (1:21:14.240)
Like what, you know what?
Sarma Melngailis (1:21:16.240)
I mean, what, okay.
Lex Fridman (1:21:17.240)
I know it's not a love affair.
Sarma Melngailis (1:21:20.240)
That said, when did you kind of get hooked by the, oh, I wonder, you know, like fall in love.
Lex Fridman (1:21:31.240)
I think it was just a slow.
Sarma Melngailis (1:21:33.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:21:34.240)
When did you fall in love?
Sarma Melngailis (1:21:35.240)
It was a slow process and I think he found me at a time when there was sort of a perfect storm of the right conditions for me to fall into whatever I fell into with him because that was heartbroken for the first time in my life.
Lex Fridman (1:21:53.240)
Where was the heartbreak coming from?
Sarma Melngailis (1:21:55.240)
I had split with my boyfriend of four years.
Lex Fridman (1:21:59.240)
And that broke your heart.
Sarma Melngailis (1:22:01.240)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (1:22:02.240)
I mean, it was, I knew it was a relationship that I knew would end even when I got into it in the first place.
Lex Fridman (1:22:09.240)
How did you know?
Lex Fridman (1:22:10.240)
Because he's 15 years younger than me.
Sarma Melngailis (1:22:12.240)
Surely that can't be the only reason it wouldn't work.
Lex Fridman (1:22:17.240)
I need to also give you a book on love.
Lex Fridman (1:22:21.240)
What's it called?
Lex Fridman (1:22:23.240)
I'm going to write it.
Sarma Melngailis (1:22:24.240)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (1:22:25.240)
Okay.
Sarma Melngailis (1:22:26.240)
That's called a joke.
Lex Fridman (1:22:27.240)
Because there's another book that I didn't bring.
Sarma Melngailis (1:22:28.240)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:22:29.240)
There's no book on Twitter and there's no book on love.
Sarma Melngailis (1:22:32.240)
Because there's actually a book on love that I really like that I think you might like.
Lex Fridman (1:22:36.240)
What is it?
Lex Fridman (1:22:37.240)
Like love languages?
Lex Fridman (1:22:38.240)
I still have to read that one.
Sarma Melngailis (1:22:39.240)
No, it's called On Love.
Lex Fridman (1:22:41.240)
I can't wait.
Sarma Melngailis (1:22:43.240)
I'm going to read the cliff notes.
Lex Fridman (1:22:45.240)
It's short by this guy named Alain de Botton.
Sarma Melngailis (1:22:49.240)
French name.
Lex Fridman (1:22:51.240)
I don't trust him already.
Sarma Melngailis (1:22:53.240)
No, it's funny and it's beautiful and shocking that he wrote it when he was very young.
Lex Fridman (1:22:58.240)
And I first heard him on a Krista Tippett podcast.
Sarma Melngailis (1:23:02.240)
That's how I end up reading a lot of books is like you hear somebody on a podcast.
Lex Fridman (1:23:08.240)
So you were heartbroken.
Sarma Melngailis (1:23:11.240)
You knew it wasn't going to work.
Lex Fridman (1:23:12.240)
I knew it wasn't going to work.
Sarma Melngailis (1:23:13.240)
Because of the age difference.
Lex Fridman (1:23:15.240)
That's just because of the age difference also.
Sarma Melngailis (1:23:18.240)
I just knew that eventually he'd want to move on and probably he'd find somebody younger
Lex Fridman (1:23:24.240)
and or was young enough that he still needed to go have a bunch of other experiences.
Sarma Melngailis (1:23:30.240)
And, you know, probably wanted a family or whatnot eventually.
Lex Fridman (1:23:34.240)
So he was 21 and I was 34 when we first met.
Lex Fridman (1:23:42.240)
But and but then we ended up living together for four years and it was the most drama free.
Lex Fridman (1:23:48.240)
Like there was no drama.
Lex Fridman (1:23:50.240)
And I had just come off my prior relationship was Matthew Kenny, which was very dark in many ways
Lex Fridman (1:23:59.240)
and full of all kinds of.
Sarma Melngailis (1:24:01.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:24:02.240)
And I just couldn't couldn't handle that.
Lex Fridman (1:24:04.240)
So ask you a personal question.
Lex Fridman (1:24:06.240)
Yes.
Sarma Melngailis (1:24:07.240)
Between us and between us friends.
Lex Fridman (1:24:11.240)
Is there a part of you that's attracted to the drama and the chaos?
Sarma Melngailis (1:24:17.240)
Now, looking back.
Lex Fridman (1:24:21.240)
I feel like that happens a lot.
Lex Fridman (1:24:23.240)
And maybe there was at some point, but I don't think so.
Sarma Melngailis (1:24:30.240)
Because, you know, what made that relationship work with his name was Tobin was that there was no drama.
Sarma Melngailis (1:24:42.240)
Not at all.
Lex Fridman (1:24:43.240)
And I don't think I could have handled it.
Lex Fridman (1:24:45.240)
And I feel that way now, too, like I just couldn't.
Lex Fridman (1:24:47.240)
I can't like fighting or any kind of like the people being passive aggressive.
Sarma Melngailis (1:24:52.240)
I can't I can't handle that.
Lex Fridman (1:24:55.240)
So you've had enough storms.
Sarma Melngailis (1:24:57.240)
Now you want the calm.
Lex Fridman (1:24:59.240)
Yes.
Sarma Melngailis (1:25:00.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:25:01.240)
So you knew it wasn't work.
Sarma Melngailis (1:25:03.240)
I knew it was going to work forever.
Lex Fridman (1:25:05.240)
Well, that that could be just insecurity and cynicism.
Lex Fridman (1:25:09.240)
But fair enough.
Lex Fridman (1:25:10.240)
And then the heart was broken.
Sarma Melngailis (1:25:13.240)
Yes, and now the heart was broken and fragile and there to be manipulated in some sense.
Lex Fridman (1:25:23.240)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (1:25:24.240)
And there's another person that I heard that I quoted my book saying that when you're heartbroken, you can't rely on your instincts.
Lex Fridman (1:25:34.240)
Somehow your instincts are compromised when you're heartbroken.
Lex Fridman (1:25:38.240)
And maybe I'm just like looking for excuses.
Lex Fridman (1:25:41.240)
No, no, it's true.
Lex Fridman (1:25:43.240)
But I was heartbroken and then.
Sarma Melngailis (1:25:47.240)
I like to see people when they're heartbroken because it's like shows how much they really loved somebody.
Lex Fridman (1:25:55.240)
You know?
Lex Fridman (1:25:57.240)
Yeah, it's sad.
Lex Fridman (1:25:59.240)
But like sometimes love doesn't reveal itself as richly when you're in it versus when you lose it.
Lex Fridman (1:26:07.240)
Right.
Sarma Melngailis (1:26:08.240)
That's probably true.
Lex Fridman (1:26:09.240)
Anyway, so your judgment wasn't good.
Sarma Melngailis (1:26:12.240)
Great.
Lex Fridman (1:26:13.240)
So now you're so you're lonely and you're super busy running the restaurant.
Lex Fridman (1:26:18.240)
But when you get home, you're lonely or like in between.
Lex Fridman (1:26:23.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:26:24.240)
And I was kind of overwhelmed.
Lex Fridman (1:26:25.240)
And I'm sure you were getting a lot of really positive attention from other guys to, well, New York.
Sarma Melngailis (1:26:34.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:26:35.240)
Or too busy.
Sarma Melngailis (1:26:36.240)
No, because because it was a restaurant, there was constantly you're like constantly meeting people and really interesting people.
Lex Fridman (1:26:44.240)
And New York is full of a lot of interesting people.
Lex Fridman (1:26:50.240)
And you're, you know, attractive.
Lex Fridman (1:26:53.240)
So why are you connected to some mysterious distant man from somewhere else playing over words?
Sarma Melngailis (1:27:01.240)
Because well, I think now looking back, I think it's because I felt like he understood me.
Lex Fridman (1:27:07.240)
And, you know, what was that feeling from coming from you think like what?
Lex Fridman (1:27:12.240)
Why did you why does one feel that you're understood?
Sarma Melngailis (1:27:16.240)
One thing that made me extra easy to target is that I had written a lot of very personal blogs and things.
Sarma Melngailis (1:27:23.240)
In addition to him asking me questions and me probably just being insanely open and answering whatever he asked me, I had also written and posted a bunch of personal blogs.
Lex Fridman (1:27:33.240)
Some of them I've reposted on my new website and then some of them I haven't.
Lex Fridman (1:27:38.240)
But in one of them, I go into detail about my frustrations professionally in growing the business.
Lex Fridman (1:27:48.240)
And having read that and being a very smart person, he would have known kind of precisely what to say to get me to get me drawn in.
Lex Fridman (1:28:00.240)
So I think by waiting so long before we met in person, he'd already he'd already gotten me hooked in a way that was going to then make it possible for me to see him.
Lex Fridman (1:28:13.240)
And even though he doesn't look like I thought he did, I'll make excuses for it. Or I mean, it's a dangerous thing about when people and I'm not saying I fell in love with him in this way.
Sarma Melngailis (1:28:25.240)
I feel like there's another explanation for the what felt like love.
Lex Fridman (1:28:30.240)
But when people fall in love quickly, there's that danger that because that's what happens first, that the more you learn about them, you'll sort of rationalize away things that might be red flags or things that you don't like.
Lex Fridman (1:28:45.240)
So I think it's safer to fall in love when you get to know somebody not in the context of dating them, like Jim and Pam on The Office. Did you watch The Office?
Sarma Melngailis (1:29:04.240)
Yeah, of course I watched The Office. British Office is better. Strong words. But yes. So well, yeah, fine. True.
Sarma Melngailis (1:29:15.240)
It might be a bit romantic.
Sarma Melngailis (1:29:16.240)
Yeah, I like the romantic. Yeah, it's fine. But just I think the better lesson is, yes, that's one thing to say, but the other is like when you see the red flags, notice them, be a little better about noticing them, even amidst the passion.
Lex Fridman (1:29:33.240)
What if a brilliant woman kind of threw herself in your path? Because talking on a podcast is a little bit like having a blog where you overshare because people learn everything about you, what you like, what you don't like, what your wants and dreams.
Lex Fridman (1:29:50.240)
So some woman could pretend to throw herself in your path seemingly accidentally, and then you meet.
Sarma Melngailis (1:29:59.240)
She has a Russian accent and probably works for FSB.
Sarma Melngailis (1:30:03.240)
No, but whatever. She is who she is, and then she sort of slides into the conversation like a quote from The Idiot. And you're like, boom.
Lex Fridman (1:30:17.240)
But she's not who she, that's all a pretend. And so you very quickly could fall in love with her, and she's going to turn out to enjoy the game of destroying your life.
Lex Fridman (1:30:31.240)
Yep. That or it's the love of my life.
Sarma Melngailis (1:30:36.240)
It could be, but not if she did all those things intentionally.
Lex Fridman (1:30:39.240)
But you don't really know. But you have to then pay attention to, that's the dark aspect here. You mentioned blog.
Sarma Melngailis (1:30:47.240)
I love when people have stuff about themselves online because you get to really learn. I mean, I'm a fan of podcasts. I'm a fan of people.
Sarma Melngailis (1:30:55.240)
I love learning about them, the personal stuff and so on, hopefully for good reasons.
Lex Fridman (1:31:01.240)
So the people you connect with, the good ones are the ones that are going to be very sort of empathetic. And the bad ones are the ones that are going to be fake empathetic.
Sarma Melngailis (1:31:12.240)
Like they're going to learn everything about you and use you to manipulate you as opposed to learn everything about you to fall deeper in love with you as a friend or as a romantic partner.
Sarma Melngailis (1:31:23.240)
Or like genuine curiosity.
Sarma Melngailis (1:31:25.240)
Yeah, genuine curiosity. Like there's something you're drawing. Like imagine your dog, Leon, had a blog after. Oh yeah, he does now. Yeah, that's true.
Sarma Melngailis (1:31:34.240)
He kind of does.
Lex Fridman (1:31:35.240)
Yeah. When you met him, right? Then you'd be like, what is this? What is there that's pulling me towards this creature, this entity? What is there?
Lex Fridman (1:31:47.240)
And it'd be fascinating to learn more and then you fall in love with the details, not just with some kind of ethereal thing.
Lex Fridman (1:31:54.240)
Yeah, you don't know. You have to pay attention to the red flags.
Sarma Melngailis (1:31:57.240)
Yeah. I think one of them actually is somebody who doesn't have that kind of – I mean, plenty of people are private and they don't put stuff out about themselves online for all kinds of very valid reasons.
Lex Fridman (1:32:08.240)
But somebody who does share a lot about themselves personally is – maybe there's examples, but it's probably not a sociopath if they're sharing all kinds of –
Sarma Melngailis (1:32:20.240)
Sure, sure. But I mean, on the other side, when you meet people, yeah, I still like the falling in love. Because the red flags, whether you see them early or later, it doesn't matter. I'd rather see the red flags right away.
Sarma Melngailis (1:32:34.240)
I go in hard, intensely, like – to clarify, by going hard, I mean like, you know, no small talk. Just get to know a person. Get to know quickly. Get to know the person. Challenge.
Sarma Melngailis (1:32:51.240)
Travel with them.
Sarma Melngailis (1:32:52.240)
Travel with them is really powerful. Road trip from hell or not, go on a road trip and find out if it's a road trip from hell. Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:33:00.240)
But you might – so there was somebody I was –
Lex Fridman (1:33:02.240)
This is also a male perspective.
Sarma Melngailis (1:33:03.240)
Destructive relationship with where we had already fallen in love and then went for the first trip in a situation where we had to borrow – I guess he was still sharing his car with his ex wife, so we had to go to the garage to pick up the car to go on this little trip.
Lex Fridman (1:33:22.240)
So you literally baggage the ex.
Sarma Melngailis (1:33:25.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:33:26.240)
That's – wow.
Lex Fridman (1:33:28.240)
So – but something happened where the garage attendant was like, wanted more identification and it was a pain in the ass.
Sarma Melngailis (1:33:37.240)
Anyway, this guy was so unbelievably rude to the garage attendant, like just nasty and I was completely shocked and disturbed and we got in the car for this long car ride and I was like not saying anything and really shocked and then he noticed that and was very concerned and I explained, you know, like I just – I never – I would never treat somebody that way.
Lex Fridman (1:34:06.240)
And then he pretended to get incredibly upset and to feel horrible and remorseful about it and it was like all we talked about for the next few hours and then I kind of thought like, well, okay, you know, I can get over that and then the relationship continued and it was a dark and destructive one.
Sarma Melngailis (1:34:25.240)
Whereas, you know, had I seen him behave that way before we were in a relationship, I would have known to back away.
Sarma Melngailis (1:34:36.240)
Okay. But the lesson – you could still walk away. You could still walk away.
Sarma Melngailis (1:34:42.240)
No, you can't – well, I could have walked away at any point with – I call him Mr. Fox because it sort of depersonalizes him. But I could have walked away from him at any point in time, but that's the whole – that's kind of the whole point of what they do and the whole reason why people don't understand it.
Sarma Melngailis (1:35:03.240)
I mean, it's like being in a cult of one. So the people who've been in cults and gotten out, we understand each other very well because the same psychology was used, the same psychological tactics were used on us.
Lex Fridman (1:35:22.240)
And then we experienced the same thing on the other side of it, which is it's hard for us to understand and it's hard for other people to understand and everybody's saying that would never happen to me or they're saying, I don't get it because you're smart, how could you let that happen?
Lex Fridman (1:35:34.240)
Why didn't you leave? Why didn't you walk away? And on the other side of it, we don't have the answers or it takes a really long time of self reflection and reading and investigation to try and figure out how it is that it happened and why didn't we walk away.
Sarma Melngailis (1:35:50.240)
No, I mean it's definitely hard at every level and I just think that even for more subtle, sort of not outrageously toxic relationships, but like normal toxic – not normal, like a little bit toxic relationships.
Sarma Melngailis (1:36:08.240)
There are some people that kind of thrive on conflict.
Lex Fridman (1:36:11.240)
But you should still just be self aware like I think you've talked about, give yourself time to think about the red flags and like I pride myself on being able to walk away.
Sarma Melngailis (1:36:23.240)
You have to think like is this the kind of thing I can live with in friendship and business partners and because the little things that bother you turn out to be big things down the line.
Sarma Melngailis (1:36:41.240)
Yeah, so it could be less romantic but I feel like getting to know somebody slowly over time is –
Sarma Melngailis (1:36:50.240)
Yeah, it's the smarter thing.
Lex Fridman (1:36:51.240)
It's safer.
Sarma Melngailis (1:36:52.240)
I like it though.
Lex Fridman (1:36:54.240)
But that's again my Russian slash Ukrainian male perspective.
Sarma Melngailis (1:37:01.240)
Anyway, so, Meeting Mr. Fox.
Lex Fridman (1:37:08.240)
Anthony.
Sarma Melngailis (1:37:09.240)
That's a chapter title in my book, Meeting Mr. Fox.
Lex Fridman (1:37:12.240)
Meeting Mr. Fox.
Lex Fridman (1:37:13.240)
So you're working on a book about this.
Lex Fridman (1:37:17.240)
I'm almost done.
Sarma Melngailis (1:37:18.240)
It's taken a really long time.
Lex Fridman (1:37:20.240)
Can you define almost done?
Sarma Melngailis (1:37:23.240)
Because I've said that it's like when people say like they're leaving, like I'm almost in the car.
Lex Fridman (1:37:32.240)
Right.
Lex Fridman (1:37:33.240)
And they actually –
Lex Fridman (1:37:34.240)
But they're not really.
Sarma Melngailis (1:37:35.240)
They're not really.
Lex Fridman (1:37:36.240)
They haven't even started the showering yet or something.
Sarma Melngailis (1:37:38.240)
Yeah, I think I probably need some like therapist to work with me on this.
Lex Fridman (1:37:44.240)
Are you usually late to things?
Sarma Melngailis (1:37:46.240)
No.
Lex Fridman (1:37:47.240)
Okay.
Sarma Melngailis (1:37:48.240)
I'm usually – oh, I sent you a text message because I was early when I got here.
Lex Fridman (1:37:53.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:37:54.240)
And I said that I'm – because of – I think I said my crippling fear of being late.
Lex Fridman (1:38:03.240)
I'm like always early.
Lex Fridman (1:38:06.240)
So I'm loitering outside like a weirdo but glad to come in if it's not too early.
Sarma Melngailis (1:38:12.240)
The crippling fear of being late makes me chronically early and today is no exception.
Sarma Melngailis (1:38:17.240)
Yeah, it's interesting.
Lex Fridman (1:38:18.240)
So I got here before I rang the bell.
Sarma Melngailis (1:38:21.240)
I was outside for a little while like just killing time going I'm way too early.
Lex Fridman (1:38:26.240)
But it's really hot out.
Sarma Melngailis (1:38:28.240)
Oh, that's true.
Lex Fridman (1:38:30.240)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (1:38:31.240)
I always air – like I was very early to the airport and then I had all this time to kill.
Lex Fridman (1:38:35.240)
But that's fine with me because that's actually time I appreciate because I can write things or –
Sarma Melngailis (1:38:43.240)
I worked on my book draft on the airplane, mostly editing, which it needs a lot because it's really long.
Lex Fridman (1:38:51.240)
It's in word count.
Lex Fridman (1:38:52.240)
So all the things are already completed and you're just editing down or just things aren't written?
Lex Fridman (1:38:56.240)
No, I wish.
Sarma Melngailis (1:38:57.240)
It's in five parts and I've written one through four.
Lex Fridman (1:39:01.240)
And part five is like the chapters are all there but some of them are messy.
Sarma Melngailis (1:39:06.240)
Some of them are just like a few paragraphs.
Lex Fridman (1:39:09.240)
Some of them are just notes.
Sarma Melngailis (1:39:11.240)
Some of them are done.
Lex Fridman (1:39:13.240)
So I am kind of – it's like five parts and part five is not quite finished.
Lex Fridman (1:39:20.240)
But I've been editing along the way.
Lex Fridman (1:39:24.240)
So this is going to come out in 2023, I think you mentioned.
Lex Fridman (1:39:27.240)
So it won't come out for a bit or we'll figure it out.
Lex Fridman (1:39:32.240)
What have you learned about yourself from putting some of these things down on paper?
Lex Fridman (1:39:37.240)
What's like the darkest thing you've realized about yourself from writing?
Sarma Melngailis (1:39:42.240)
The darkest – well, one of the things that was fascinating is reading through all of our –
Sarma Melngailis (1:39:50.240)
the correspondence between him and me that I was able to find because he deleted all our emails but he didn't –
Lex Fridman (1:39:55.240)
I think he thought he deleted all of our G chats but he didn't.
Sarma Melngailis (1:39:58.240)
Oh, so he had access to your email.
Lex Fridman (1:40:01.240)
Yes.
Sarma Melngailis (1:40:02.240)
He deleted it on that side too.
Lex Fridman (1:40:03.240)
And he deleted – yeah, he had access to my email most of the time.
Lex Fridman (1:40:07.240)
And then at the end was also emailing people as me which was incredibly mortifying to come home
Lex Fridman (1:40:14.240)
and then get back into my old email and find that.
Lex Fridman (1:40:17.240)
And I think he was also texting people as me and those I'll never know unless somebody brings it to my attention
Sarma Melngailis (1:40:23.240)
because after a certain date in 2015, he had my phone and he had exclusive access to my phone and email.
Lex Fridman (1:40:30.240)
So I wasn't looking at it until I got out – until after we were arrested and I was out on bail on my sisters
Lex Fridman (1:40:40.240)
and it took me a long time to get back into my Gmail because I had to verify who I am and I never got my phone back.
Lex Fridman (1:40:47.240)
So I don't know what he texted to other people as me after that time.
Lex Fridman (1:40:51.240)
But anyway, I was able to recover a lot of our G chats which we used that – I don't know why people don't use it anymore
Lex Fridman (1:41:04.240)
but it used to be a thing.
Lex Fridman (1:41:05.240)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (1:41:06.240)
It was like if you work with people and you use Gmail, it's a really easy way to just message back and forth.
Lex Fridman (1:41:10.240)
It's a chat client within Google but I think Google shut it down already or no?
Sarma Melngailis (1:41:14.240)
I think it's still there.
Lex Fridman (1:41:16.240)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:41:17.240)
And nobody – I used to talk to people on there and nobody talked to me anymore.
Lex Fridman (1:41:21.240)
And so I'd rather –
Sarma Melngailis (1:41:23.240)
I would talk to you.
Lex Fridman (1:41:24.240)
Thank you.
Sarma Melngailis (1:41:25.240)
I just – I don't – yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:41:28.240)
People don't love Google social products for some reason.
Sarma Melngailis (1:41:32.240)
The social network they tried several times, Google Plus, it just dies out.
Sarma Melngailis (1:41:37.240)
Something about it – it's like when Microsoft tries to do stuff, it just doesn't feel right.
Sarma Melngailis (1:41:42.240)
Anyway, it is very lonely in that Google chat window.
Lex Fridman (1:41:46.240)
It makes total sense though.
Sarma Melngailis (1:41:47.240)
Anyway, so that was still there so you're reading through them.
Lex Fridman (1:41:50.240)
So finding – being able to go back and read.
Lex Fridman (1:41:53.240)
And then I kept finding like more layers of stuff including a journal that I didn't find the DA, the prosecutor found.
Lex Fridman (1:42:03.240)
Written by?
Sarma Melngailis (1:42:04.240)
Me.
Lex Fridman (1:42:05.240)
My journal that I thought he'd thrown away.
Sarma Melngailis (1:42:07.240)
I didn't know it existed.
Lex Fridman (1:42:08.240)
So somehow he still had it and they found my journal which was for the year 2014 and the very beginning of 2015.
Sarma Melngailis (1:42:21.240)
This is after you got – this is in the middle of it.
Lex Fridman (1:42:24.240)
It was in the middle of it, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:42:25.240)
So reading that was fascinating.
Lex Fridman (1:42:29.240)
Yeah, what's some interesting things there?
Lex Fridman (1:42:32.240)
Was it – was your mind completely detached?
Lex Fridman (1:42:37.240)
It was weird because no.
Lex Fridman (1:42:41.240)
Were you concerned?
Lex Fridman (1:42:42.240)
Were you in love?
Lex Fridman (1:42:43.240)
Were you afraid?
Lex Fridman (1:42:44.240)
I was not in love.
Sarma Melngailis (1:42:45.240)
I was afraid.
Lex Fridman (1:42:46.240)
I definitely write repeatedly in there that I'm afraid of him.
Sarma Melngailis (1:42:50.240)
I also write repeatedly things like I don't know what's going on, like please let this be over, please let this be over, please let this be over.
Lex Fridman (1:42:58.240)
And then in a sort of – if I try to remove myself and look at it as if I was a different person,
Sarma Melngailis (1:43:04.240)
it's sort of heartbreaking because I was trying so hard to be positive and that didn't work out.
Lex Fridman (1:43:13.240)
I was trying to be positive.
Lex Fridman (1:43:15.240)
So when I – it turned up later in the process and my lawyer at the time called or something and said,
Lex Fridman (1:43:27.240)
you know, the DA has your – or the prosecutor, they have your journal.
Sarma Melngailis (1:43:34.240)
I haven't read it yet, but as soon as I get a PDF copy, I'll send it to you.
Lex Fridman (1:43:38.240)
So that was sort of weird to think that everybody's reading my journal, which, you know,
Sarma Melngailis (1:43:42.240)
you don't write it thinking people are going to read – unless you're like a historical person
Lex Fridman (1:43:45.240)
and then later on you think people are going to print from it.
Sarma Melngailis (1:43:49.240)
But, you know, nobody's writing a journal thinking that.
Lex Fridman (1:43:52.240)
I can just imagine like a 14 year old thinking they're going to be a historical person, right?
Sarma Melngailis (1:43:57.240)
Right.
Sarma Melngailis (1:43:58.240)
Well, no, I mean like, you know, presidents who keep journals and then they're later on.
Sarma Melngailis (1:44:01.240)
Sure, sure, sure.
Lex Fridman (1:44:03.240)
So you write it.
Sarma Melngailis (1:44:04.240)
You don't think anybody's going to read it.
Lex Fridman (1:44:06.240)
And so that was a weird feeling.
Lex Fridman (1:44:07.240)
And then also just not knowing – not remembering what I wrote.
Lex Fridman (1:44:14.240)
So I think it was the next day I got – she sent me a PDF copy of it and I read it really quickly
Sarma Melngailis (1:44:20.240)
because I could read my own – it was a PDF so it was like Xeroxes of the pages.
Lex Fridman (1:44:24.240)
So it was in my own handwriting, which I could read really fast because even though it's messy,
Sarma Melngailis (1:44:28.240)
I wrote it so I could read it really fast.
Lex Fridman (1:44:30.240)
And I read the whole thing and was crying because I thought, okay, finally, like,
Sarma Melngailis (1:44:36.240)
surely nobody could read this and think that I intended to commit crimes.
Lex Fridman (1:44:40.240)
And so I thought – like I thought that journal was just going to fully exonerate me
Lex Fridman (1:44:45.240)
and they would like, you know, if not drop the charges, like it would just be like,
Lex Fridman (1:44:50.240)
okay, well, you know, some bad things happened.
Sarma Melngailis (1:44:53.240)
You're responsible.
Lex Fridman (1:44:54.240)
You know, here's probation.
Lex Fridman (1:44:57.240)
But it didn't seem to make any difference, which was strange.
Lex Fridman (1:45:01.240)
But anyway, so the journal and then also finding all of the correspondence between –
Sarma Melngailis (1:45:08.240)
not all of the correspondence between him and me,
Lex Fridman (1:45:10.240)
but the GCHAT correspondence between him and me, to me, so, you know, all of that in its –
Sarma Melngailis (1:45:17.240)
like I wish that everything could have been kind of put out there as evidence.
Sarma Melngailis (1:45:23.240)
Like the more they turned up, the better for me because I wanted them to see everything.
Lex Fridman (1:45:28.240)
And there are just so many examples in the correspondence between him and me where he's,
Sarma Melngailis (1:45:32.240)
you know, threatening me and, you know, lying to me and telling me that if I don't do what he says,
Sarma Melngailis (1:45:39.240)
my whole life will be destroyed and I'll lose everything I ever cared about, all kinds of things like that.
Lex Fridman (1:45:43.240)
But what I still don't quite understand and what one of my lawyers said why all of that wasn't as useful
Sarma Melngailis (1:45:52.240)
as I thought it might be is because so much of that correspondence, I'm like sarcastically, angrily.
Lex Fridman (1:46:01.240)
I'm yelling at him.
Sarma Melngailis (1:46:02.240)
I'm mad at him.
Lex Fridman (1:46:03.240)
I'm like, fuck you.
Sarma Melngailis (1:46:04.240)
I'm making fun of him.
Lex Fridman (1:46:05.240)
I call him names.
Sarma Melngailis (1:46:07.240)
I'll say to him, like, you're lying.
Lex Fridman (1:46:09.240)
Why should I believe you?
Sarma Melngailis (1:46:10.240)
You told me you'd pay me back before, but you didn't.
Lex Fridman (1:46:13.240)
So it seems like it doesn't make sense.
Sarma Melngailis (1:46:18.240)
Like how is it that if I say to him, you're lying, you're a liar, that I still –
Lex Fridman (1:46:25.240)
so then what would happen is I'm reading that correspondence and then it stops for a while,
Sarma Melngailis (1:46:30.240)
maybe because I was with him in person.
Lex Fridman (1:46:33.240)
And then I'll look at my timeline of things and I'll see, oh, I sent him a wire for $80,000.
Sarma Melngailis (1:46:39.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:46:40.240)
How do you explain your ability to still joke around and also to be mean to him in a joking way?
Sarma Melngailis (1:46:51.240)
Couples can do that.
Sarma Melngailis (1:46:55.240)
There's cruel ways of doing that and then there's humorous ways, just like you're talking shit, whatever.
Sarma Melngailis (1:47:01.240)
You were able to do that still and yet you're sending over the money and are afraid.
Lex Fridman (1:47:08.240)
Like how can you be those two things?
Sarma Melngailis (1:47:12.240)
Like as opposed to completely shutting down.
Lex Fridman (1:47:15.240)
Well, I don't know.
Sarma Melngailis (1:47:17.240)
I mean, these are all interesting questions that I have as well.
Lex Fridman (1:47:19.240)
Like how is it that I was functional and yet also doing these things.
Lex Fridman (1:47:25.240)
And so the year that we were gone is like a different level because I no longer was running the business.
Lex Fridman (1:47:32.240)
But the thing about dissociation is that you're functioning but like your feelings and your thinking are detached in some way
Lex Fridman (1:47:41.240)
so that like you're functioning and people wouldn't look at you and go, oh, that person is dissociating because you're functioning.
Sarma Melngailis (1:47:47.240)
You seem normal but somehow in your head you're like disconnecting your feelings and your thinking.
Lex Fridman (1:47:54.240)
So you're still able to be like the game of social interaction and being witty and so on, all that kind of stuff.
Sarma Melngailis (1:48:02.240)
For me, I think it's like a coping mechanism too because I haven't been to a funeral in a long time
Lex Fridman (1:48:08.240)
but if I went, I'd probably like find absurd thing or I'll tend to like either make jokes or want to make jokes at really inappropriate times,
Lex Fridman (1:48:19.240)
even in tragic times because it's almost like a defense mechanism, I think.
Sarma Melngailis (1:48:25.240)
Like you said, you told me you like dark humor.
Lex Fridman (1:48:27.240)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (1:48:30.240)
My next door neighbor is Michael Malice.
Lex Fridman (1:48:32.240)
He's an anarchist.
Sarma Melngailis (1:48:34.240)
I have one of his books.
Lex Fridman (1:48:36.240)
The Hero?
Sarma Melngailis (1:48:37.240)
Dear Reader.
Lex Fridman (1:48:38.240)
Dear Reader, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:48:39.240)
And he loves, he embodies dark humor, trolling and dark humor and is underneath the sweetest human being.
Sarma Melngailis (1:48:46.240)
He's writing a book now, The White Pill, that's really focused on Stalin and the Holodomor.
Sarma Melngailis (1:48:54.240)
There's basically atrocities throughout the 20th century and I think he needs the dark humor to release the valve.
Sarma Melngailis (1:49:02.240)
I think there's something about incredibly good, the most offensive comedians tend to have the kindest hearts, I think.
Sarma Melngailis (1:49:12.240)
This is my theory.
Sarma Melngailis (1:49:13.240)
People like Ricky Gervais, who goes out and insults people and makes jokes that people find horribly offensive and crude
Lex Fridman (1:49:23.240)
and yet is a huge animal rights guy and appears to be an incredibly sweet and kind person and sensitive.
Lex Fridman (1:49:34.240)
And Howard Stern, people who are like incredibly crude very often are, in my experience, to the extent that I've gotten either to know people personally,
Sarma Melngailis (1:49:47.240)
observe them, learn about them in other ways, but almost like the more crude and offensive, the comedian or the person, they tend to have the kindest.
Lex Fridman (1:49:59.240)
Yeah, I don't know if it's a universal rule, but yeah, I see what you mean.
Lex Fridman (1:50:02.240)
And you lost me with Howard Stern.
Lex Fridman (1:50:04.240)
He seems like not a good person.
Sarma Melngailis (1:50:06.240)
Oh no, he's such a good person.
Lex Fridman (1:50:07.240)
Underneath it, in short.
Sarma Melngailis (1:50:08.240)
Oh yeah, such a good person.
Sarma Melngailis (1:50:09.240)
He's just said so much, so I'm friends with Rogan, he said so many ignorant things about Rogan, but I suppose that's...
Lex Fridman (1:50:16.240)
So I haven't heard, I haven't listened to Howard Stern in a long time.
Lex Fridman (1:50:20.240)
And I also think that people who say bad things about Rogan don't listen to his podcast.
Sarma Melngailis (1:50:26.240)
Right.
Sarma Melngailis (1:50:27.240)
Because I've listened to his podcast and people think that, I think people would assume that I don't like him because, or the whole like vegan thing and he's all about meat and they would think that I would think, no.
Sarma Melngailis (1:50:42.240)
Because I've listened to enough of his podcast, I've heard the one where he talked about why he hunts, whereas if I only knew him via his Instagram, I might think he's an asshole.
Lex Fridman (1:50:57.240)
But having listened to all of his, not all of, I don't listen to all of them, there's a ton of them, but having listened to a lot of his podcasts, enough to know that he's an extremely kind person with all the best intentions.
Lex Fridman (1:51:12.240)
And I think that a lot of that judgment comes from people who are just seeing little clips.
Sarma Melngailis (1:51:17.240)
It's probably easy to take little clips from him that sound... Yeah, the lesson there is just not make judgments on people without getting to know them, especially, and you have no excuse when the content is out there, like, don't be lazy.
Sarma Melngailis (1:51:28.240)
Yeah, I try. That's, yeah, I'm very careful when, you know, a lot of these cases, you know, like the, the Depp herd thing or, oh, Johnny Depp and Elizabeth Holmes and anything like controversial.
Lex Fridman (1:51:45.240)
And sometimes that makes me, I can't think of an example, but very often, like when somebody criticizes something or something becomes controversial, that's what gets me to want to understand it better.
Lex Fridman (1:51:57.240)
So then I'll go like read the book that everybody's mad about.
Lex Fridman (1:52:00.240)
Yeah, it's hard to know what's true though.
Sarma Melngailis (1:52:02.240)
I tried to have humility and always assume I don't really know the full story and keep pulling at the string, keep learning more and more. But even then, like, the more you learn, the more you realize the things are complex.
Lex Fridman (1:52:15.240)
What do you think about as a small tangent, Johnny Depp, Amber Heard, trials going on, it's a quick pause, it's going to resume next week.
Lex Fridman (1:52:26.240)
So again, this is one of those situations where, you know, I have very limited information because I'm also not sitting there watching the trial.
Lex Fridman (1:52:33.240)
Have you watched any of it?
Sarma Melngailis (1:52:34.240)
Little bits of it. And it's like, I know that if I go there, then I'm going to want to watch it all.
Lex Fridman (1:52:40.240)
Yeah, it's good.
Sarma Melngailis (1:52:41.240)
I know.
Sarma Melngailis (1:52:42.240)
It's raw human relationships that is most toxic and it's most deep also because there's you can tell there's love probably still there's love, which is the interesting thing. They probably still love each other even though they hate each other.
Lex Fridman (1:52:57.240)
And like there's a lot of lying going on.
Sarma Melngailis (1:53:00.240)
It looks like it's Amber Heard lying to my foolish eyes. It seems like she's lying nonstop. But, you know, I want to know the full story and we'll never get to know it.
Lex Fridman (1:53:12.240)
But you see this raw, like postmortem on a relationship on a love affair that was clearly passionate.
Sarma Melngailis (1:53:19.240)
There was clearly something deep of a connection there. And it just that's the sad thing about love.
Sarma Melngailis (1:53:25.240)
It can destroy you as much as it can uplift you.
Lex Fridman (1:53:28.240)
It can be also used to destroy people.
Sarma Melngailis (1:53:31.240)
Yeah, to manipulate and all that kind of stuff. Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:53:33.240)
Right. So people who feel strongly are, I think, particularly vulnerable.
Sarma Melngailis (1:53:41.240)
Yeah, it's it's hard to talk about because I've dipped into like a podcast or something where other people are discussing bad vegan and like a pop culture way and they're analyzing it. And it's so annoying to listen to.
Lex Fridman (1:53:58.240)
So I'm like, oh, my God, that's totally wrong. That's totally wrong. Well, if they only knew this, well, I have no that's wrong.
Sarma Melngailis (1:54:03.240)
So, you know, listening to other people analyzing my situation or my psychology when they don't have all the information has been really frustrating.
Lex Fridman (1:54:13.240)
There's a difference.
Sarma Melngailis (1:54:15.240)
I did.
Sarma Melngailis (1:54:16.240)
There's a difference because the world doesn't know much about you except for the Netflix documentary.
Sarma Melngailis (1:54:21.240)
Right.
Sarma Melngailis (1:54:22.240)
There's a lot more information about both Johnny Depp and Amber Heard and The Trial is revealing the real people. This one is so interesting.
Lex Fridman (1:54:29.240)
But I haven't watched it all.
Sarma Melngailis (1:54:30.240)
OK, but there's a difference between a documentary and like a raw human being sitting there.
Sarma Melngailis (1:54:36.240)
Exactly. The real trial.
Lex Fridman (1:54:37.240)
You can see the body language.
Sarma Melngailis (1:54:39.240)
It's so interesting that I think you could tell the difference between a person who is full of shit and not.
Lex Fridman (1:54:47.240)
No.
Sarma Melngailis (1:54:48.240)
I'm not sure.
Lex Fridman (1:54:50.240)
It's another. I'm going to. I can't remember.
Lex Fridman (1:54:52.240)
And sorry. I keep interrupting you. But on top of this, there are actors, too, which is very annoying.
Lex Fridman (1:54:58.240)
Right. Exactly.
Sarma Melngailis (1:55:00.240)
Because like I don't know if they're putting it be sure as hell looks like Amber Heard is putting on like a soap opera act.
Lex Fridman (1:55:06.240)
Soap opera meaning like really bad acting and lies.
Lex Fridman (1:55:10.240)
But I would say all of these things are really hard.
Lex Fridman (1:55:14.240)
People would say about me, I don't look like a victim.
Lex Fridman (1:55:17.240)
And I don't mind you interrupting me because Andrew Huberman said that that means you're interested in the conversation.
Lex Fridman (1:55:23.240)
He said it was a good thing.
Lex Fridman (1:55:25.240)
So you don't have to apologize for interrupting me.
Lex Fridman (1:55:29.240)
It keeps coming up, but I keep thinking of these.
Lex Fridman (1:55:32.240)
That's one of the things that Andrew told me that I'm like, are you sure?
Lex Fridman (1:55:36.240)
Because it just does seem like an asshole thing to do.
Sarma Melngailis (1:55:39.240)
I guess it depends on the context.
Sarma Melngailis (1:55:41.240)
If we're in a business meeting and somebody talks over you to kind of make their point heard.
Lex Fridman (1:55:46.240)
But if it's a one on one situation, then it's not.
Lex Fridman (1:55:48.240)
I could argue that forever.
Lex Fridman (1:55:50.240)
But so a long time ago, I listened to there was a audio call, an audio that was released of a taped argument between Johnny Depp and Amber Heard.
Lex Fridman (1:56:01.240)
And I don't remember why, like which one of them had taped it and if they knew it was being taped.
Lex Fridman (1:56:06.240)
But it was like an hour and a half.
Lex Fridman (1:56:07.240)
And I listened to it almost like you would listen to a podcast where I was doing other things, like cleaning my apartment.
Lex Fridman (1:56:12.240)
And I was fascinated listening to it to a fight.
Lex Fridman (1:56:14.240)
So I was and it's interesting, too, because it was just the audio, not so you're not looking at their body language, which can be completely misleading.
Lex Fridman (1:56:23.240)
And there was another podcast where they talked about how judges make worse decisions on whether or not somebody deserves parole or to be released on bail when they see the person in person versus if they're just looking at the information on paper.
Lex Fridman (1:56:39.240)
So I think body language and those kinds of things can be can actually be misleading.
Sarma Melngailis (1:56:45.240)
Or we think that like by looking somebody in the eye will know if they're lying or not, but the skilled liars are able to bypass that or they because I'm jumping all over the place.
Lex Fridman (1:56:57.240)
But one of the things about sociopaths is they're not going to have the same tell.
Lex Fridman (1:57:01.240)
So like if I was lying, somebody would know because I'm like stressed out, mortified, I'm probably doing all the things that we do when we lie because it's stressful for me, whereas they don't have those things.
Lex Fridman (1:57:13.240)
So I think that, you know, they could, for example, I think that they could pass a lie detector test.
Sarma Melngailis (1:57:19.240)
They also don't have like a startle response.
Lex Fridman (1:57:22.240)
So the activity in their brain, like if you and I watch something graphic and tragic on TV or watch something happen, like things would happen in our brains that don't happen in the brains of sociopaths.
Lex Fridman (1:57:34.240)
So they don't react to things in the same way that that we do.
Lex Fridman (1:57:38.240)
Again, you keep assuming I'm not associated.
Sarma Melngailis (1:57:40.240)
I didn't say I'm not associated, Beth.
Lex Fridman (1:57:42.240)
This assumption you keep making is very interesting.
Lex Fridman (1:57:44.240)
Then why did I murder all those people?
Lex Fridman (1:57:46.240)
Let's get back to the what were we talking about?
Sarma Melngailis (1:57:49.240)
Johnny Depp and Amber Heard.
Lex Fridman (1:57:50.240)
So the audio that I heard made me, without knowing anything else, made me very inclined to be Team Johnny Depp.
Sarma Melngailis (1:58:00.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:58:01.240)
Based on that, just based on that audio.
Sarma Melngailis (1:58:03.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:58:04.240)
Well, that's how the people are feeling about this whole interaction.
Sarma Melngailis (1:58:07.240)
By the way, I do think it's a very healthy thing to do in a relationship is to record each other for months at a time.
Lex Fridman (1:58:12.240)
Every time you fight, that just seems like a very, that's sarcasm.
Sarma Melngailis (1:58:17.240)
I don't understand how that, because they both recorded each other.
Sarma Melngailis (1:58:20.240)
I suppose you could look back at all human relations and be like, this was ridiculous.
Lex Fridman (1:58:27.240)
What was I doing?
Lex Fridman (1:58:28.240)
But when you're in it, you don't.
Sarma Melngailis (1:58:31.240)
Right.
Lex Fridman (1:58:32.240)
I wondered that too.
Lex Fridman (1:58:33.240)
Like who made the recording and why?
Lex Fridman (1:58:35.240)
And did they both know about it, that it was being recorded?
Sarma Melngailis (1:58:41.240)
Sometimes they did.
Lex Fridman (1:58:42.240)
Sometimes they didn't.
Sarma Melngailis (1:58:43.240)
All I know is just the poetry of Johnny Depp's speaking and sort of movement about the whole thing.
Lex Fridman (1:58:54.240)
It's interesting.
Sarma Melngailis (1:58:55.240)
It makes you wonder what's real.
Sarma Melngailis (1:58:57.240)
Maybe this is whole, maybe they're both in love and this is like a troll that they played on the world.
Sarma Melngailis (1:59:04.240)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (1:59:05.240)
It makes me wonder what's real at all.
Sarma Melngailis (1:59:11.240)
Because you have to remember they're actors too.
Lex Fridman (1:59:14.240)
Yeah, I don't think he would have filed a lawsuit.
Sarma Melngailis (1:59:17.240)
No, I mean, I'm joking.
Lex Fridman (1:59:19.240)
No, I know.
Lex Fridman (1:59:20.240)
But no, I mean, my point is if somebody was trying to make the argument that like he's the abuser and that he's lying and he's full of shit,
Sarma Melngailis (1:59:31.240)
it sort of doesn't make sense that he would have filed a lawsuit unless he's trying to have this all come out in the open because he believes he's in the right.
Sarma Melngailis (1:59:43.240)
You know, again, I have no idea.
Lex Fridman (1:59:45.240)
I agree with you.
Sarma Melngailis (1:59:46.240)
As a fan of love and human nature, I appreciate the fact that they went through this.
Lex Fridman (1:59:51.240)
I know it's probably extremely painful.
Lex Fridman (1:59:53.240)
But it's fascinating to watch human relationships be presented in such a wrong way and it made me realize how rare it is to get a glimpse like that.
Lex Fridman (20:04.960)
I want to write them down somewhere.
Lex Fridman (20:06.960)
So I write those down and I think even the time it takes to transcribe it is somehow
Lex Fridman (20:12.000)
worthwhile.
Sarma Melngailis (20:12.560)
It's like searing it in your brain.
Lex Fridman (20:15.760)
And you're reliving the memory, having read it the first time.
Sarma Melngailis (20:20.160)
Yeah, and then sometimes I'll pick up books.
Lex Fridman (20:21.840)
I even and sometimes I just underline sentences that are...
Sarma Melngailis (20:26.400)
It's not the content of the sentence.
Sarma Melngailis (20:28.240)
It's more that it's just a beautifully written sentence or like a particularly apt metaphor
Sarma Melngailis (20:32.480)
or something that's really nice.
Lex Fridman (20:34.640)
And I like paper books too because I bought Beautiful Ruins.
Sarma Melngailis (20:38.160)
I would have never heard of it, I don't think, except one of my favorite things is to go
Lex Fridman (20:42.880)
to used bookstores.
Sarma Melngailis (20:45.200)
Actually, Goodwill sometimes has really good big book selections depending on the area
Lex Fridman (20:51.760)
where you go.
Sarma Melngailis (20:53.680)
Sometimes you find a lot of treasures there.
Lex Fridman (20:55.920)
And what ends up happening a lot is I end up buying books that I know sometimes also
Sarma Melngailis (21:00.880)
because I lost all my belongings at one point.
Lex Fridman (21:02.640)
So, I'll very often buy books that I've already read just to have them.
Lex Fridman (21:09.040)
But then what always ends up happening is I'll find...
Lex Fridman (21:13.040)
There'll be a couple of books that I buy that I've never heard of the author.
Sarma Melngailis (21:15.680)
I don't really know anything about the book at all, but something drew me to it.
Lex Fridman (21:19.760)
And what I like about that is you're buying used books so it costs a dollar or two.
Lex Fridman (21:25.200)
So, if you made a mistake, like no big deal, who cares?
Sarma Melngailis (21:28.160)
So, but every time I come back with a book haul, there's usually at least one gem that
Sarma Melngailis (21:35.520)
I end up loving and I'm so glad that I read it.
Lex Fridman (21:38.320)
And Beautiful Ruins was that book for me.
Lex Fridman (21:40.880)
And I was drawn to it because of the cover art.
Sarma Melngailis (21:42.880)
Like I just loved the cover and the colors and then I picked it up and read the back
Lex Fridman (21:48.640)
and bought it.
Lex Fridman (21:49.440)
And I also feel bad sometimes buying used books when the author is still alive because
Sarma Melngailis (21:54.880)
I feel like if you write a book, you should get the royalties.
Lex Fridman (21:59.360)
So...
Lex Fridman (21:59.920)
But you get to live with that regret.
Sarma Melngailis (22:02.640)
Well, also, I mean, I'll usually end up putting a picture of Leon reading the book online
Lex Fridman (22:07.680)
and then other people buy it and read it.
Lex Fridman (22:09.920)
And so I feel like I've made up for...
Sarma Melngailis (22:11.680)
You make up for it.
Lex Fridman (22:12.480)
I've made up for depriving him of the royalties.
Sarma Melngailis (22:15.840)
I used to live in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
Lex Fridman (22:18.880)
I know it well.
Sarma Melngailis (22:20.560)
I used to hang out at the pit in Harvard Square with my green and blue hair when I was very
Lex Fridman (22:26.640)
way too young to be doing that by myself.
Lex Fridman (22:29.040)
And there's a guy that I think has been there for a long time, sort of between Kendall and
Lex Fridman (22:35.520)
Central that would just lay out used books and sell them.
Lex Fridman (22:39.840)
And I always loved that guy.
Lex Fridman (22:41.280)
Whoever he was, he had a cool hat.
Sarma Melngailis (22:44.800)
He's an older gentleman and you could just tell he's seen some things.
Lex Fridman (22:49.360)
I don't know who he is.
Sarma Melngailis (22:50.640)
I always wanted to actually like talk to him for a long time, but I was too afraid.
Lex Fridman (22:55.680)
Maybe because I wouldn't be able to handle what he had to tell me.
Sarma Melngailis (22:59.440)
Because I almost wanted to maintain the innocence of just, okay, here's this guy.
Lex Fridman (23:02.960)
But he was so...
Sarma Melngailis (23:05.280)
Every time you would ask him a question about a book, first of all, he's read all of them.
Lex Fridman (23:08.880)
Oh, that's interesting.
Sarma Melngailis (23:09.840)
Which means he's traveled quite a few places inside these worlds.
Lex Fridman (23:14.320)
And then you would tell him, I would look at a book and he would catch you being curious
Sarma Melngailis (23:20.560)
about it and then he would walk up to you and then he would start talking about the
Lex Fridman (23:24.320)
book and he would always forget that you were there.
Sarma Melngailis (23:28.000)
He's almost like, he's not trying to sell you the books.
Lex Fridman (23:30.800)
Part talking to himself?
Sarma Melngailis (23:31.760)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (23:33.840)
Almost like an ex girlfriend he's visiting through this book or something.
Lex Fridman (23:37.680)
Did you buy books from him?
Lex Fridman (23:38.720)
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Lex Fridman (23:40.240)
But the experience of just being there because he lays them out and people actually that
Sarma Melngailis (23:45.120)
watch or listen to this probably would be able to tell me what his name is because I'd
Sarma Melngailis (23:48.880)
love to find that guy again.
Lex Fridman (23:50.000)
I'm sure he's still there.
Sarma Melngailis (23:50.960)
Maybe you'll have him on the podcast.
Lex Fridman (23:52.640)
I 100% will.
Lex Fridman (23:55.120)
But it's almost terrifying.
Lex Fridman (23:57.920)
I'm not sure I can handle.
Sarma Melngailis (23:59.760)
Because he's been through some things.
Lex Fridman (24:01.360)
I'm not sure if he's homeless or just looks like it.
Sarma Melngailis (24:05.600)
Yep.
Lex Fridman (24:06.880)
That's sometimes a thing.
Sarma Melngailis (24:08.000)
That's sometimes a thing.
Lex Fridman (24:10.960)
And some of my favorite people either are homeless or look like it.
Lex Fridman (24:17.040)
Okay, what's the third one?
Sarma Melngailis (24:18.960)
The A Confession of a Sociopath by M.E. Thomas, A Life Spent Hiding in Plain Sight.
Sarma Melngailis (24:24.800)
It's a book I recommend a lot because I've read a lot about sociopathy and I've read
Sarma Melngailis (24:31.360)
all the books by psychologists and this one's written by a woman who understands herself
Sarma Melngailis (24:39.040)
that she is a sociopath.
Lex Fridman (24:40.720)
And so it's beautifully written, but I learned more from that book than from any other book.
Lex Fridman (24:45.840)
And I think I thought about it a long time ago.
Sarma Melngailis (24:49.280)
I think a lot of conversations you've talked a lot about good and evil and whether everybody's
Sarma Melngailis (24:55.840)
really good or some people are not good.
Lex Fridman (24:58.400)
And I think sociopathy is something that I think the world needs to understand much better.
Lex Fridman (25:04.800)
And so that book helped me understand a lot and it's beautifully written and she tackles
Sarma Melngailis (25:10.320)
all the really interesting moral questions like, you know, like what if we were able
Sarma Melngailis (25:16.400)
to definitively diagnose people in some way, like you could immediately identify who's
Sarma Melngailis (25:25.200)
a full blown sociopath and then what as a society would you do with them because in
Sarma Melngailis (25:31.280)
most cases, you know, they're just going to cause destruction and pain and harm and
Lex Fridman (25:37.600)
or potentially rise to power and become president or something.
Lex Fridman (25:45.760)
So I just found that book fascinating.
Lex Fridman (25:48.080)
And we'll return to this idea because it's fascinating.
Sarma Melngailis (25:55.440)
We'll return to human psychology and human nature.
Lex Fridman (25:58.480)
But let's go through the timeline of your life.
Sarma Melngailis (26:05.600)
Let's take a stroll.
Lex Fridman (26:07.520)
So you wrote that the documentary about you called Bad Vegan Fame Fraud Fugitives is
Sarma Melngailis (26:13.680)
not a documentary.
Sarma Melngailis (26:15.120)
It got some things right, some things wrong, and some were quote, disturbingly misleading.
Lex Fridman (26:21.600)
So let's go through and get things right today.
Sarma Melngailis (26:26.720)
First, can I give you a whirlwind summary the way I understand it and also for context
Sarma Melngailis (26:31.440)
of people.
Lex Fridman (26:33.040)
So 2004, you, Matthew Kenney, and Jeffrey Jotaro opened Pure Foods and Wine in New York
Sarma Melngailis (26:42.480)
City.
Lex Fridman (26:42.960)
Did I say their names correctly?
Sarma Melngailis (26:44.400)
Pure Food and Wine.
Lex Fridman (26:45.520)
No, their names.
Sarma Melngailis (26:46.000)
Oh, theirs.
Lex Fridman (26:47.840)
Well, yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (26:48.800)
Matthew Kenney and Jeffrey Jotaro.
Lex Fridman (26:50.160)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (26:50.560)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (26:51.280)
So it's, and I'll ask about what it takes to launch and run a restaurant in New York
Sarma Melngailis (26:58.000)
City.
Lex Fridman (26:58.320)
That's a fascinating story in itself.
Lex Fridman (27:00.400)
So it's an upscale raw food restaurant.
Lex Fridman (27:03.600)
All right, that's 2004.
Sarma Melngailis (27:05.040)
2007, you opened One Lucky Duck Juice and Takeaway.
Lex Fridman (27:09.120)
And second and third locations in 2009 and 14.
Sarma Melngailis (27:12.480)
All of those things closed in 2016, 15, 16, 15 and 16.
Lex Fridman (27:20.880)
Okay.
Sarma Melngailis (27:22.080)
All right.
Sarma Melngailis (27:22.640)
2009, Jeffrey lends you $2.1 million to buy the business outright and Matthew is out.
Sarma Melngailis (27:31.040)
Matthew was out earlier than that.
Lex Fridman (27:33.200)
And then time passed, time passed.
Lex Fridman (27:35.520)
And I had, what was complicated is I had started the One Lucky Duck brand on my own.
Lex Fridman (27:42.720)
At first it was a dot com that was doing like delivery.
Sarma Melngailis (27:46.720)
It was a dot com where people could order ingredients and things and all of the
Lex Fridman (27:51.840)
products that we made and packaged.
Lex Fridman (27:53.360)
So we made a bunch of cookies and snacks and things that were, I think, different.
Lex Fridman (27:57.520)
And if I may say so myself, better than other.
Sarma Melngailis (28:02.000)
Strong words.
Lex Fridman (28:03.200)
Products out there.
Sarma Melngailis (28:03.920)
Talking trash already.
Lex Fridman (28:05.200)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (28:05.440)
About the cookies.
Lex Fridman (28:06.400)
But I feel like I can brag about our food and products because a few recipes early on
Sarma Melngailis (28:14.720)
I came up with, but it was the people that worked with me that created really good recipes
Lex Fridman (28:21.920)
and products.
Lex Fridman (28:22.720)
And I was just kind of there curating it all or helping to get it out there.
Lex Fridman (28:32.240)
What was your favorite thing that you've created, maybe yourself eat?
Sarma Melngailis (28:36.320)
That not you created, but this whole, all of these efforts have created in terms of
Lex Fridman (28:41.040)
meal.
Sarma Melngailis (28:42.000)
Like you said, cookies.
Lex Fridman (28:43.920)
What are we talking about here?
Sarma Melngailis (28:44.560)
Oh, that's a hard question.
Sarma Melngailis (28:46.320)
It's just, okay, not the favorite, but like something that pops into memory that brought
Sarma Melngailis (28:49.840)
you joy.
Lex Fridman (28:51.120)
The Malamar.
Sarma Melngailis (28:52.640)
Everybody loved the Malamar.
Lex Fridman (28:54.720)
So very often we made like raw vegan versions of things that people are familiar with.
Lex Fridman (29:01.280)
So it was a, I think it was pecans.
Lex Fridman (29:04.080)
It was like a salty cookie made with nuts and then covered in chocolate.
Lex Fridman (29:08.160)
And then there's a big blob of coconut cream, which it didn't taste coconutty.
Lex Fridman (29:16.480)
Our ice cream was made with a coconut also.
Sarma Melngailis (29:19.200)
It's like the meat from coconuts pureed.
Lex Fridman (29:21.840)
And then there's some soaked cashews in there.
Lex Fridman (29:23.840)
But anyway, it was a blob of vanilla flavored cream, kind of like a healthy natural version
Lex Fridman (29:29.920)
of fluff.
Sarma Melngailis (29:31.440)
I don't know if you're familiar with fluff.
Lex Fridman (29:32.720)
Basically every single word you say, I'm not familiar with.
Sarma Melngailis (29:35.840)
You should see my diet.
Lex Fridman (29:37.040)
I don't, it's like steak and vegetables.
Sarma Melngailis (29:40.160)
Fluff is like a thing that I remember it from my childhood, like peanut butter and fluff
Lex Fridman (29:44.720)
is a ridiculously delicious combination.
Lex Fridman (29:47.120)
Is it fluffy or is it not?
Lex Fridman (29:48.160)
It's like a marshmallow.
Sarma Melngailis (29:49.120)
It's basically like, like if you softened the marshmallows and made it into a luxurious,
Lex Fridman (29:55.440)
amazing goo.
Sarma Melngailis (29:56.400)
Oh, so it's like a fancy marshmallow.
Lex Fridman (29:57.280)
And then put it in a jar.
Sarma Melngailis (29:58.880)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (29:59.360)
And then made it spreadable.
Sarma Melngailis (2:00:04.240)
Yeah, and I think one of the reasons I like that book Confessions of a Sociopath also is it's, you know, female who's writing it.
Lex Fridman (2:00:12.240)
And I think statistically men are more likely to be sociopaths, maybe not.
Sarma Melngailis (2:00:18.240)
I mean, these are all things where a lot of times there exist statistics that would be inherently hard to get.
Lex Fridman (2:00:28.240)
So who knows?
Lex Fridman (2:00:30.240)
But I think that people tend to think of sociopaths more as men and then which probably gives female sociopaths the advantage in that people are less likely to like the Elizabeth Holmes,
Lex Fridman (2:00:46.240)
like people who are really manipulative and really good at it.
Lex Fridman (2:00:51.240)
And part of how they're able to succeed is that people don't understand their motives or people will assume that people behave rationally,
Lex Fridman (2:01:00.240)
even if rationally means it's like Anthony Stranges.
Sarma Melngailis (2:01:05.240)
You know, it would have made more sense if he had gotten all this money out of me and, you know,
Sarma Melngailis (2:01:10.240)
put it in an overseas account and then ditched me and got on a plane to Mexico, like everybody would understand that more.
Lex Fridman (2:01:17.240)
Whereas, you know, the way things happened and he dragged me around the country and like, what were we doing in Tennessee?
Lex Fridman (2:01:25.240)
And then why didn't like nothing really makes any sense.
Lex Fridman (2:01:30.240)
But and also all of the things that he did to me and had me do, it was as if all of those things together only make sense if his primary goal was to maximally destroy me
Lex Fridman (2:01:46.240)
and also make it like have me burn all my bridges and make it so I'll never recover.
Lex Fridman (2:01:51.240)
And when you read a book like that, you understand that that's that's what he wanted.
Lex Fridman (2:01:56.240)
Like, that's his life. It's like a game.
Lex Fridman (2:02:00.240)
Like, what do you think?
Lex Fridman (2:02:01.240)
It's about power and it's a game.
Lex Fridman (2:02:03.240)
Do you think he understood the long term goals he has or was it the short term game of it that he enjoyed, the ability to destroy you?
Lex Fridman (2:02:10.240)
Well, yeah, it was the short term game of it.
Lex Fridman (2:02:13.240)
To control another human?
Sarma Melngailis (2:02:15.240)
Yeah. And also, I think for him, like, the motivations are just different. So, you know, he spent a year incarcerated because he never got out on bail.
Lex Fridman (2:02:28.240)
But then he got out.
Lex Fridman (2:02:30.240)
He's out of prison, though.
Sarma Melngailis (2:02:32.240)
He got out before I went in to serve my time, which was particularly, you know, like, psychologically, I had to try really hard not to be infuriated.
Lex Fridman (2:02:49.240)
But anyway, so I think for him, you know, the consequence of spending time in jail is sort of like an inconvenience.
Sarma Melngailis (2:02:56.240)
You know, it's like life is a game.
Lex Fridman (2:02:59.240)
And so he wouldn't feel if you're not capable of being emotionally hurt, then you're, you know, you have immense power because you can go around and do things.
Lex Fridman (2:03:12.240)
And people can't hurt you. It's like a superpower.
Lex Fridman (2:03:15.240)
And he did this for people who are not familiar. I guess he did this to other women.
Sarma Melngailis (2:03:19.240)
Yes. Yes.
Sarma Melngailis (2:03:23.240)
I think it was in the documentary that his, I guess, ex wife from somewhere else.
Sarma Melngailis (2:03:31.240)
Florida.
Lex Fridman (2:03:32.240)
Florida.
Sarma Melngailis (2:03:33.240)
Of course, Florida. Sorry.
Lex Fridman (2:03:36.240)
Strong, strong words.
Sarma Melngailis (2:03:38.240)
Well, it's just like when there's the weirdest story about, you know, people eating Tide pods and then doing crazy.
Lex Fridman (2:03:45.240)
It's like it's always in, it's always in Florida.
Lex Fridman (2:03:47.240)
So I feel like whenever crazy things, so to me it makes sense that he would have spent time in Florida before and that's where.
Lex Fridman (2:03:53.240)
Crazy in a good way.
Lex Fridman (2:03:54.240)
And I mean that on an insult on him.
Lex Fridman (2:03:56.240)
I also like she's an amazing person.
Sarma Melngailis (2:03:58.240)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (2:03:59.240)
So it's like it's him that I'm making the like Florida is a bit weird.
Sarma Melngailis (2:04:05.240)
Yes, he manipulated her as well, lied to her, that kind of things.
Sarma Melngailis (2:04:10.240)
Well, jumping around, but one of the things you said that was disturbingly misleading is the ending of the documentary.
Lex Fridman (2:04:17.240)
And the ending has a phone call, I think, of you and Anthony talking.
Lex Fridman (2:04:24.240)
So high level, let me ask.
Lex Fridman (2:04:27.240)
How many times have you talked with Anthony since you got out of prison and what did you talk about?
Lex Fridman (2:04:35.240)
And why is that quote misleading, that segment of audio misleading?
Sarma Melngailis (2:04:41.240)
My issue with it also was that it was deliberately misleading, which was what was particularly infuriating about it.
Lex Fridman (2:04:52.240)
And then also there was, it was like there were things, one major thing that was incorrect that I think helped allow people to make an incorrect conclusion at the end was
Sarma Melngailis (2:05:04.240)
in the film it talks about, I say something about how my accountant made a joke about if I married him, he could easily transfer me money without tax consequences.
Lex Fridman (2:05:13.240)
And then the film has me saying something like, you know, and then within 24 hours we were married.
Lex Fridman (2:05:20.240)
But that's like audio from here and audio from here spliced together.
Lex Fridman (2:05:24.240)
So they made it seem like there's a.
Sarma Melngailis (2:05:26.240)
Like I married him because it was like he could give me money and that wasn't the case.
Lex Fridman (2:05:30.240)
So you're part mastermind of some kind of scheme that involve money transfer and you got married and that kind of thing.
Sarma Melngailis (2:05:37.240)
Right. Or if nothing else, I had like, I was trying to get money.
Lex Fridman (2:05:40.240)
That's why I married him.
Lex Fridman (2:05:41.240)
So which is absurd because again, you know, New York is full of legitimate people with loads of money.
Sarma Melngailis (2:05:47.240)
If I really wanted to marry somebody for money in New York, it wouldn't be that hard to do.
Lex Fridman (2:05:52.240)
But anyway, it was like it was just a deliberate making it seem like my intention was, you know, to marry him for his fictitious money.
Lex Fridman (2:06:02.240)
Right. Okay, so that's one.
Lex Fridman (2:06:05.240)
And either way.
Lex Fridman (2:06:06.240)
Let's go to that ending thing because we're on that sort of topic.
Sarma Melngailis (2:06:09.240)
When you got out of prison, you know, what the film implies is that whatever, there's a small aspect of your mind that still wants to continue a relationship with Anthony.
Lex Fridman (2:06:25.240)
Yeah, that's not the case.
Lex Fridman (2:06:26.240)
And not just that, but there's still flirtation and that kind of a body and collide.
Lex Fridman (2:06:33.240)
And then I was laughing.
Sarma Melngailis (2:06:34.240)
Like, we got the world like at our fingertips, we're playing.
Sarma Melngailis (2:06:41.240)
So, I mean, one of the exciting things about being like a couple that's fucking with the world that's getting away with something is that there's all these powerful forces that want to catch you in a crime and you keep getting away with it.
Sarma Melngailis (2:06:59.240)
That's exciting.
Lex Fridman (2:07:01.240)
In some romantic world, it could be.
Sarma Melngailis (2:07:05.240)
Not in this case.
Lex Fridman (2:07:07.240)
Right. And also, I always have to keep reminding people like, get away with what?
Sarma Melngailis (2:07:11.240)
Because I lost everything and all these people lost other, you know, people I cared about lost a lot.
Lex Fridman (2:07:18.240)
My mother lost a lot, but I lost everything too.
Sarma Melngailis (2:07:22.240)
Yeah, your restaurant, your dream.
Sarma Melngailis (2:07:26.240)
Yeah, my reputation, my stuff, my home, you know, ending up with millions of dollars of debt.
Sarma Melngailis (2:07:34.240)
Like, it's not even like I lost it all and then it's a clean slate.
Sarma Melngailis (2:07:37.240)
It's like I lost it all and now I have this like giant boulder of, or like this wobbly, unclear how to like, yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:07:49.240)
So when people say, got away with something, I'm always like, got away with what?
Lex Fridman (2:07:56.240)
Destroying my life and ending up in debt?
Sarma Melngailis (2:07:58.240)
Because that's, it's not even like, you can't even sort of point to like, as if I was trying to do something and then oops, that happened.
Sarma Melngailis (2:08:06.240)
It's like, there's no, nothing that logically makes sense if somebody was trying to decipher my, you know, whatever motives I might have had.
Sarma Melngailis (2:08:19.240)
Yeah, you didn't walk away from the explosion, you were inside the explosion.
Sarma Melngailis (2:08:23.240)
Okay, but that said, the movie implied, and so, I mean, it's interesting to ask, not just in clarifying the movie, but just as a human being, you're out of prison, he's out of prison.
Sarma Melngailis (2:08:41.240)
There was, you know, there was that toxic connection, but it was there, and there's a depth to it, so toxic connections can be pretty deep.
Lex Fridman (2:08:53.240)
So how, what was the conversation like and how often have you talked with him?
Sarma Melngailis (2:08:59.240)
Well, we don't speak anymore, and that call at the end was...
Lex Fridman (2:09:04.240)
Not even on Gchat?
Sarma Melngailis (2:09:06.240)
Was recorded on, like, I recorded the call and gave it to them, you know, so I was like, deliberately recording him. It's not like I was caught on a hot mic, like, I made that call.
Lex Fridman (2:09:18.240)
It's part of the documentary.
Sarma Melngailis (2:09:19.240)
I recorded him intentionally, I was trying to get him to repeat some of like, the kookier things he would say about like, his meat suit or some of the weird like, the things about something not being real.
Sarma Melngailis (2:09:32.240)
The more like, fantastical things, I was trying to get him to repeat those things.
Sarma Melngailis (2:09:36.240)
It was probably like a 40 minute call, which I mean, it's actually on my phone, I still have it, I haven't gone back to listen to it, but...
Lex Fridman (2:09:42.240)
Do you ever think of publishing that whole thing?
Sarma Melngailis (2:09:44.240)
Oh yeah, oh I think about publishing everything, my entire journal, all...
Lex Fridman (2:09:47.240)
You should publish that call unedited, just publish it. That'd be fun.
Sarma Melngailis (2:09:52.240)
No, I want to publish like, a lot of stuff. He took all these videos of me also, that they used a couple of clips of, and I would, I mean, I would, they're also on my phone, I would publish them all. I would publish everything.
Lex Fridman (2:10:04.240)
In particular, because I...
Sarma Melngailis (2:10:07.240)
You should release that with your book.
Sarma Melngailis (2:10:09.240)
Yeah, I probably, I mean, I've planned to do that eventually, if all of that material would be really useful to psychologists or people studying it. So, to the extent that it would help other people understand what happened, which I think would be meaningful.
Sarma Melngailis (2:10:26.240)
Well, he's still out there, he's fascinating.
Sarma Melngailis (2:10:28.240)
Yeah, he's still out there doing weird, weird shit with his clean slate. I get a little annoyed about that. He's got the clean slate walking away.
Lex Fridman (2:10:37.240)
Well, he didn't have a restaurant, he didn't have a persona. Does he have any public persona, or no? Or we don't know?
Lex Fridman (2:10:45.240)
He got booted off of Twitter.
Sarma Melngailis (2:10:47.240)
He had a tweet.
Lex Fridman (2:10:48.240)
Maybe Elon will put him back on.
Lex Fridman (2:10:50.240)
Is that a passive aggressive statement?
Lex Fridman (2:10:52.240)
No, not at all. I find that whole conversation really, really interesting.
Lex Fridman (2:10:57.240)
Whether to put somebody like Anthony on, back on Twitter?
Sarma Melngailis (2:11:00.240)
Well, no, I think, because I used to always think like, if only everybody had to identify as themselves on Twitter, and you could have like a parody account.
Sarma Melngailis (2:11:08.240)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (2:11:09.240)
Or like, Leon has an account, but it's very clear that it's me behind it. Or sometimes there's like, you know, Devin Nunes cow.
Lex Fridman (2:11:16.240)
Wait, really?
Sarma Melngailis (2:11:17.240)
Like, so people have parody accounts, but if we could identify who it is, then a lot of...
Lex Fridman (2:11:23.240)
Why did he get booted off of Twitter?
Lex Fridman (2:11:26.240)
I don't know. But I used to, so in the last few years, I would periodically, probably like once a month, maybe more, I would like, look at his Twitter, just to kind of see like, well, where is he and, you know, like, just to see like, what is he up to?
Lex Fridman (2:11:42.240)
And I figured out, I could tell from the photographs that he'd moved to California.
Lex Fridman (2:11:47.240)
And I think he might have told me one of the last times I spoke to him that he was going to move to California.
Lex Fridman (2:11:56.240)
And then I also screen grabbed a lot of stuff that he put on Twitter, and he put these creepy videos of himself on Twitter at the beginning of COVID. I screen grabbed those.
Lex Fridman (2:12:07.240)
And then one day I went and like, he was, you know, account was suspended. And then I kept going back and it's like been suspended ever since. So he might have started a new account. And I don't, I don't know what it is. Probably...
Lex Fridman (2:12:19.240)
He's probably in California, you're saying?
Lex Fridman (2:12:22.240)
He is in California. That's been verified.
Sarma Melngailis (2:12:25.240)
Somebody who was going to have to interact with him in an official capacity was going to go meet him. And I said, and was nervous about it. And I said, he's going to be really likable, like, you're going to like him.
Sarma Melngailis (2:12:39.240)
He's probably going to like figure out what you're interested in. Talk sports, talk, whatever it is that he figures out quickly that you're interested in. He's going to be really nice. He's going to seem like a nice guy.
Lex Fridman (2:12:50.240)
And that person later got back to me and was like, you're exactly right.
Lex Fridman (2:12:55.240)
So yeah, that's the, that's the sociopath thing, right?
Sarma Melngailis (2:12:58.240)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (2:12:59.240)
You have to be extremely careful. But inside a relationship, that's even more dangerous. Like...
Lex Fridman (2:13:03.240)
So I think that part of the reason I spoke to him was entirely self serving and strategic after the fact.
Lex Fridman (2:13:12.240)
For the documentary.
Sarma Melngailis (2:13:13.240)
Well, even before I knew there was ever going to be a documentary, I spoke to him. And I, and I knew how dangerous it was because I knew that in a situation like this, you're supposed to have no contact, which makes sense.
Lex Fridman (2:13:27.240)
And I understand why, which makes it extra tragic when people have kids with a sociopath or in a narcissistic abusive relationship. If you have kids, then you're tethered, which is tragic. But...
Lex Fridman (2:13:39.240)
Why are you supposed to avoid conversations? Because you can get pulled right back.
Lex Fridman (2:13:42.240)
So they have no contact. Yeah, because they'll continue abuse or they'll, you'll be vulnerable to them being able to pull you back in. So I knew that to be the case.
Lex Fridman (2:13:55.240)
But why was it self serving? Why did you talk to him anyway?
Sarma Melngailis (2:14:00.240)
Because he was getting out, he was going to be out free out in the open while I was going to be locked up at Rikers for three and a half months.
Lex Fridman (2:14:10.240)
And the one thing that, you know, if his motivation was to destroy me, then what what else could he do to really, like, you know, hammer that last nail in the coffin?
Sarma Melngailis (2:14:25.240)
That would be Leon. And so he would have known that Leon would be staying with my mother.
Sarma Melngailis (2:14:31.240)
You know, he knows where he spent a lot of time at her house. He knows where she lives. It would be super easy for him to just drive up there, you know, wait for her to let him out.
Lex Fridman (2:14:41.240)
And then, you know, he because out in the country, he can be off leash and all he'd have to do is kind of whistle, call him over and he could take him away and do whatever.
Lex Fridman (2:14:52.240)
So I was completely, like, gripped with that fear.
Lex Fridman (2:14:57.240)
So not fear for yourself, but fear for Leon.
Sarma Melngailis (2:15:00.240)
Well, I was going to be at least safe from him, but I was going to be locked away. So.
Lex Fridman (2:15:07.240)
Oh, yeah. Rikers. Yeah. Sure. So I got it. I got it. I got it.
Sarma Melngailis (2:15:12.240)
I would be powerless to do any things. And he would have free rein to go destroy me further by, you know, taking or hurting Leon.
Lex Fridman (2:15:25.240)
And then when he got out, I still I had unfollowed him from my own account, but Leon had never unfollowed him. So I was looking at I know I was looking at his at his account.
Sarma Melngailis (2:15:40.240)
Can I just say, because Joe has an account for his dog, too. I just love when people do that. It's so great. Because I actually pretend in my mind, for some reason, I do think Leon has an account. Like, I don't. You forget that there's a human behind it.
Lex Fridman (2:15:56.240)
You're like, oh, OK, cool. Yeah, I know. I love it when people do that. Anyway, so continue. So Leon didn't unfollow him. And what?
Lex Fridman (2:16:05.240)
So I was able to go back and look at his Twitter and he somehow quickly got a phone, but he very quickly started tweeting right after he got out.
Lex Fridman (2:16:17.240)
And and I was kind of like fascinated because I didn't know what to expect or what he was going to be saying.
Lex Fridman (2:16:24.240)
And and and then he started saying things that I could tell were directed at me, you know, like little things that only I would know, you know, like random things, like things that were like the equivalent of like an inside joke that you have.
Lex Fridman (2:16:38.240)
And just so he was posting things like that. And there's so many things going on at once. So another thing that would have in a twisted, but I think understandable way.
Sarma Melngailis (2:16:55.240)
Sort of a sick way that I was fully aware of is that here I am having gone through this completely like messed up thing that now I'm in trouble for. Everybody's looking at and nobody understands.
Sarma Melngailis (2:17:08.240)
Right. And so there was this unfortunate situation of the only person who understands what I went through is the person who put me through it.
Lex Fridman (2:17:20.240)
Right. So is that were you also just a little bit seeking closure of some kind?
Sarma Melngailis (2:17:26.240)
Probably a lot. But also with the awareness that I probably wasn't going to get it, you know. And I mean, I I know for a fact I would never get it in the same way that which is why.
Sarma Melngailis (2:17:39.240)
I was able to later on, like in the context of recording those calls, I was able to talk to him in this detached way because I know he doesn't give a shit that like he doesn't give any shits about what he did to my mother or me or anybody or anything just doesn't care.
Lex Fridman (2:18:00.240)
So he's certainly not going to care if I, you know, he's never going to say like I'm sorry or I did a bad thing or or like he's not going to be affected.
Sarma Melngailis (2:18:12.240)
Like if I yelled and screamed at him, that would just be frustrating for me. And he would actually probably be gratified by that. So.
Lex Fridman (2:18:20.240)
So that gave you that empowered you in being cold and sort of distant.
Sarma Melngailis (2:18:27.240)
Prior experience where I had to do the same thing, where, like, if you're if you're able to be very cold and not allow somebody to push your buttons, then you're taking away their power.
Lex Fridman (2:18:42.240)
And then that feels empowering or feels like reclaiming a little bit of your power.
Lex Fridman (2:18:46.240)
So in my talking to him, I always had a reason, you know, like there was always like I didn't want him to hurt Leon or I wanted information or I wanted to know where he was.
Sarma Melngailis (2:18:57.240)
I'd rather let him think that, you know, maybe he could still manipulate me one day or whatever.
Sarma Melngailis (2:19:03.240)
It was like safer to keep that there than to not know where he was and if I was going to like be walking Leon and turn the corner and he's standing there and like it.
Sarma Melngailis (2:19:16.240)
Like if there's a crazy murderer out on the loose, you'd rather know where they are than have no idea.
Lex Fridman (2:19:21.240)
So there are a lot of different reasons.
Lex Fridman (2:19:24.240)
Why does it upset you?
Lex Fridman (2:19:26.240)
Why was it wrong to have that audio clip at the end of the documentary?
Lex Fridman (2:19:30.240)
What did it well, because it implied all kinds of things that were completely not true.
Lex Fridman (2:19:34.240)
And it also just didn't make sense. And it confused people.
Lex Fridman (2:19:37.240)
And so so for people who haven't watched this spoiler alert is they play the clip of.
Lex Fridman (2:19:45.240)
So I don't even remember what was said, but it was kind of.
Lex Fridman (2:19:49.240)
That last what we spoke about. Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:19:52.240)
What was the what was I only watched like I still haven't watched it.
Sarma Melngailis (2:19:56.240)
I only watched the film once while, you know, people were looking at me for my reaction and I was crying and it was really weird and strange and surreal and I haven't gone back to watch it again.
Sarma Melngailis (2:20:08.240)
I feel like I'm just going to get more annoyed, but I will eventually.
Lex Fridman (2:20:12.240)
But and when I when the ending happened, I immediately blurted out, like, I hate that. I hate that ending. But I sort of assumed a lot of people saw it for what it was.
Sarma Melngailis (2:20:26.240)
They saw that it was like the director doing a weird thing and that it was kind of just weird and off and like, that doesn't make sense.
Lex Fridman (2:20:33.240)
But they didn't draw conclusions from it.
Lex Fridman (2:20:35.240)
So it was basically you joking around, like flirting almost.
Lex Fridman (2:20:37.240)
It made it seem like as if we're still friendly. Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:20:42.240)
And there's more to come. It's almost like there's going to be a bad vegan too.
Sarma Melngailis (2:20:48.240)
Right. Or. Yeah. And then also, I mean, it made it seem like, you know, if I was laughing with him that I don't take anything seriously, you know, that I don't take what happened seriously or.
Sarma Melngailis (2:21:01.240)
Yeah. Don't feel any remorse. Exactly.
Sarma Melngailis (2:21:04.240)
Yeah. And they after that, he goes to the credits with Wild World, which is a great song.
Sarma Melngailis (2:21:12.240)
Yeah. Oh, baby. It's a wild world.
Sarma Melngailis (2:21:15.240)
I never got to hear that because the version I watched didn't have the end credits, but I knew that they used that song at the end and paid a lot for it.
Sarma Melngailis (2:21:26.240)
Yeah. Yeah. I was like, oh, well, you got this song.
Lex Fridman (2:21:29.240)
Did you ever say what was the darkest thing about yourself that you discover from the book?
Sarma Melngailis (2:21:36.240)
Oh, no. We took attention. We started talking about exactly. Yeah. About the G chats.
Lex Fridman (2:21:43.240)
And I think it was, I guess it was trying to understand how I was able to be sarcastic and make jokes at his expense.
Sarma Melngailis (2:21:55.240)
Dirt while all that stuff was going on.
Lex Fridman (2:22:00.240)
So what is that? Have you figured out what that means about you?
Sarma Melngailis (2:22:06.240)
No. No, it just was interesting to look at.
Sarma Melngailis (2:22:11.240)
Also, I think, you know, I have a tendency sometimes to be sort of like jokingly hyperbolic or sarcastic, and it's gotten me into trouble.
Sarma Melngailis (2:22:25.240)
One time I got locked up in the Harlem psych ward for a day because of my hyperbole and sarcasm and lost in translation errors.
Lex Fridman (2:22:43.240)
That's a heck of a lost in translation error. Did you say something funny to a therapist?
Sarma Melngailis (2:22:51.240)
It was. Yeah. I mean, I was sort of making jokes about how bad I was feeling, but in a hyperbolic way.
Lex Fridman (2:22:58.240)
And so then suddenly somebody told somebody and then the loss in translation and then they were worried that I might kill myself and then did a wellness check and then tried to call me.
Lex Fridman (2:23:08.240)
And I was in the shower, so I didn't answer the phone. So then somebody called the police to do a wellness check on me.
Sarma Melngailis (2:23:15.240)
Things just escalated. And then not knowing that if I had handled it the right, if I had immediately, if I'd sort of understood what was going on and handled it the right way immediately, I probably could have gotten out of it.
Lex Fridman (2:23:31.240)
But they err on the side of taking you to the hospital no matter what. Makes a lot of sense. And I didn't know that. And it also.
Lex Fridman (2:23:36.240)
So you really leaned into the joke by going to the hospital.
Sarma Melngailis (2:23:40.240)
I didn't. It's sort of one of those situations that was both comical and tragic because, and would actually make a really good, it's weird how I do this sometimes.
Lex Fridman (2:23:52.240)
Like it would make a really good scene in a filmed version.
Lex Fridman (2:23:56.240)
Who would play you in the film?
Lex Fridman (2:23:58.240)
I don't know. There is a thing being made that's a scary thing because. Sharon Stone? Who would play?
Lex Fridman (2:24:05.240)
Have you cast the scene yet?
Sarma Melngailis (2:24:07.240)
No, but there's a thing being made that I have nothing to do with, which is frustrating and weird.
Lex Fridman (2:24:14.240)
What film about you?
Sarma Melngailis (2:24:15.240)
About, it's like somebody is making a fictionalized drama and it's frustrating because for all kinds of obvious reasons, it's like annoying and.
Sarma Melngailis (2:24:25.240)
It can go any way.
Lex Fridman (2:24:26.240)
It could go any way.
Sarma Melngailis (2:24:27.240)
You could be like the bad guy.
Lex Fridman (2:24:28.240)
And inevitably they'll get a bajillion things wrong. And there are also a bunch of people like profiting off of it and like, thanks guys.
Sarma Melngailis (2:24:37.240)
You know, so it's infuriating for all kinds of reasons.
Lex Fridman (2:24:41.240)
Do you know who's playing? Who are the actors?
Sarma Melngailis (2:24:43.240)
No, I don't even like, I just don't like, I'll, I'll inevitably know, but I don't really want to know. The whole thing is just annoying.
Lex Fridman (2:24:50.240)
And also I've always, people ask me this all the time and I always thought because of the way everything that happened was such a kind of a slow build and there was so much nuance and it's, it's kind of really hard to understand that it could only really be done well in like a Breaking Bad type of series long, like a long series.
Sarma Melngailis (2:25:12.240)
Where like you would be taken through these kind of gut wrenching, icky, slow build things and then that would make it all make sense.
Lex Fridman (2:25:22.240)
Like that, if it was done that way, it could be done accurately.
Lex Fridman (2:25:26.240)
But the reason why I think, so I made these stupid jokes and then somebody did a wellness check and, or asked the police to do it well, but when they knocked on my door and came in, it was like a repeat of getting arrested.
Lex Fridman (2:25:43.240)
So I sort of weirdly flashed back to that and then burst into tears, which isn't the appropriate response if you're trying to diffuse a, if you're trying to discourage the people coming to do the wellness check from taking you to the hospital, starting to cry is not the good, the right reaction.
Lex Fridman (2:26:05.240)
So the thing is, I mean, there is, it's funny, but it could be also through the joke that the joke, the best jokes are grounded in truth and pain.
Lex Fridman (2:26:19.240)
In this case, pain.
Sarma Melngailis (2:26:21.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:26:22.240)
So there, you know, have you ever, if I may ask, considered suicide?
Sarma Melngailis (2:26:29.240)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (2:26:34.240)
When?
Sarma Melngailis (2:26:36.240)
Well, I'm kind of a wimp, so, you know, I'm afraid of all of the gruesome ways, but one of the things I remember doing is sort of hoarding medications, which I had when, around the time and before he took me away, because I wanted, like I wanted to, I wanted the safety of a, like an out.
Lex Fridman (2:27:05.240)
And.
Lex Fridman (2:27:07.240)
But around that time, so when, that's the road trip, right before the road trip from hell, you were hoarding.
Lex Fridman (2:27:13.240)
Around that time, yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (2:27:14.240)
Hoarding medication and.
Sarma Melngailis (2:27:15.240)
Like I, yeah, like if I could get my hands on any sort of weird medication, I would, I would kind of hold on to it.
Sarma Melngailis (2:27:24.240)
And.
Lex Fridman (2:27:25.240)
To all the chaos that you go through.
Lex Fridman (2:27:26.240)
But I think I knew that it would be hard to do it that way.
Lex Fridman (2:27:30.240)
But you were thinking.
Sarma Melngailis (2:27:31.240)
I thought about it, but I never.
Sarma Melngailis (2:27:35.240)
In that really tough time, you know, you're thinking about, you're thinking about taking your own life.
Lex Fridman (2:27:44.240)
What gave you hope?
Lex Fridman (2:27:47.240)
What gave you sort of, because the business, the restaurant that you give so much of yourself to is lost.
Sarma Melngailis (2:27:55.240)
You're lying to everybody.
Lex Fridman (2:27:59.240)
You're in the hole financially.
Sarma Melngailis (2:28:02.240)
You're being psychologically trapped, manipulated.
Lex Fridman (2:28:06.240)
I might just go kill myself now.
Sarma Melngailis (2:28:10.240)
Well, you're still there.
Lex Fridman (2:28:13.240)
Please don't.
Sarma Melngailis (2:28:14.240)
See, I made a joke about it.
Lex Fridman (2:28:15.240)
Like that's.
Sarma Melngailis (2:28:16.240)
There you go.
Lex Fridman (2:28:18.240)
But it's always there.
Sarma Melngailis (2:28:20.240)
As the Albert Camus, you know, says, you basically always have to be aggressively looking for a reason to live.
Lex Fridman (2:28:31.240)
Otherwise.
Lex Fridman (2:28:34.240)
What's the point?
Lex Fridman (2:28:35.240)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (2:28:36.240)
Otherwise it's easy to go the other way.
Lex Fridman (2:28:38.240)
Because why live is a very good question.
Lex Fridman (2:28:41.240)
But anyways, by way of hope, by way, you know, it's a dark time.
Lex Fridman (2:28:47.240)
It's a dark time.
Lex Fridman (2:28:48.240)
If you could sort of look back, what gave you just strength?
Lex Fridman (2:28:55.240)
I think that just, you know, just having like a sort of relentless optimism.
Lex Fridman (2:29:04.240)
And I think, too, that sometimes people assume that suicide is the result of circumstances, which maybe in some cases it is.
Lex Fridman (2:29:14.240)
But I think one of the things that that book explains well is that very often it doesn't have anything to do with circumstances.
Sarma Melngailis (2:29:19.240)
It's just the pain.
Lex Fridman (2:29:22.240)
Which book?
Sarma Melngailis (2:29:23.240)
The Darkness Visible.
Lex Fridman (2:29:26.240)
You know, because people like to.
Lex Fridman (2:29:27.240)
So when somebody commits suicide, people will very often criticize them like it was a selfish act if they have a family, which most people do.
Lex Fridman (2:29:35.240)
But especially if they have kids.
Lex Fridman (2:29:36.240)
And I think that, yeah, everybody's quick to sort of call the person who killed themselves selfish.
Lex Fridman (2:29:44.240)
And I think that the type of pain that one is experiencing that leads to that is something that most people, and I don't, like people don't understand, but it's not a selfish thing.
Sarma Melngailis (2:29:57.240)
It's just like quite literally becomes intolerable from what I understand.
Lex Fridman (2:30:02.240)
And it can hit you.
Sarma Melngailis (2:30:03.240)
It could be slow.
Lex Fridman (2:30:04.240)
It could be fast.
Sarma Melngailis (2:30:05.240)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (2:30:07.240)
That pain.
Sarma Melngailis (2:30:08.240)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (2:30:09.240)
So I think because for me, it was more just my circumstances were so crappy, but also I had an awareness that even in Rikers, I knew how wildly lucky I was to have, you know, family, a support system, you know, opportunities.
Lex Fridman (2:30:30.240)
And like, I'll always be OK one way or another.
Lex Fridman (2:30:38.240)
So I felt lucky that I have that.
Sarma Melngailis (2:30:43.240)
But, you know, also I want the shame of everything that happened.
Lex Fridman (2:30:49.240)
And, you know, will I ever be able to crawl out from under it and rebuild something?
Sarma Melngailis (2:30:55.240)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (2:30:57.240)
So there were certainly times where, especially when I would learn something new, like reading the emails between Mr. Fox, my mother, I just wanted a, I wanted like a meteor to hit my particular spot on the earth right then and there just because it was.
Sarma Melngailis (2:31:15.240)
He was manipulating your mom, too, because your mom loved you and was willing to give money.
Lex Fridman (2:31:20.240)
Yeah. Yeah. And it was really grotesque.
Lex Fridman (2:31:23.240)
And so and I feel like it's my fault.
Lex Fridman (2:31:26.240)
What's your mom say about this whole situation now looking back?
Sarma Melngailis (2:31:31.240)
We don't talk about it as much as one would think that we would because I feel sickening because I feel like it's my fault.
Lex Fridman (2:31:40.240)
And I think she also feels sick over it.
Lex Fridman (2:31:44.240)
And so we don't talk about it as much as one might think of.
Lex Fridman (2:31:47.240)
Sometimes I've had to ask questions in the process of writing the book.
Lex Fridman (2:31:51.240)
And then there are other things where, like, I could ask the questions, but I just don't want to because I don't want to put her through that or, you know, it's not really necessary to ask the questions.
Lex Fridman (2:32:01.240)
But there are things that I'm sort of curious about.
Lex Fridman (2:32:07.240)
When you went on that road trip from hell, what was that like? Where'd you guys go first? Vegas? So you drove New York where?
Lex Fridman (2:32:22.240)
It was a series of stops at like hotel, motel type places.
Sarma Melngailis (2:32:27.240)
I did a similar road trip, but from Boston. I drove across the United States with no destination.
Sarma Melngailis (2:32:33.240)
I had always wanted to do that. And now I feel like it's one of those things that's sort of like ruined for me because a lot of you can always reclaim it.
Sarma Melngailis (2:32:41.240)
Yeah, I could. But now. Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (2:32:45.240)
I did think about like how one day if I did some sort of a book tour or something that I imagine this.
Sarma Melngailis (2:32:52.240)
Leon and I in a car. It has to be different than, man, book tours, if you're not careful, can suck the soul out of a human being.
Sarma Melngailis (2:33:08.240)
I think you have to do like a Hunter S. Thompson style book tour where you miss a bunch of the dates because you got too drunk the night before.
Sarma Melngailis (2:33:16.240)
Or I just what I worry about is that I just would be feeling terrible in some way and not be up for it.
Lex Fridman (2:33:26.240)
Up for the trip or up for the speaking?
Sarma Melngailis (2:33:28.240)
For like a certain type of appearance. I think I'm always afraid of that in committing to things like if it involved going to a big public event.
Sarma Melngailis (2:33:41.240)
Yeah, I think you have to be very careful. Like podcast is an interesting one. I'm always surprised that people just jump on podcasts they haven't really listened to.
Lex Fridman (2:33:49.240)
And just do a lot of podcasts, a kind of book tour. First of all, financially, it doesn't make any sense.
Sarma Melngailis (2:33:56.240)
Like especially going on small podcasts, like what's the benefit? Like really, you want to go on just a couple of big podcasts that you're actually a fan of.
Sarma Melngailis (2:34:03.240)
It's really, really, really important. People don't, like they don't understand the power. I mean, maybe you just don't understand podcasts.
Lex Fridman (2:34:12.240)
But me as a fan of podcasts is like the biggest thing I love listening to is when a guest is a fan, they understand the culture, the style, the sound, the feel of the podcast.
Sarma Melngailis (2:34:25.240)
They understand the other person, they feel the pain, the hopes of the other person, the weird like quirks of the other person makes for much better listening.
Lex Fridman (2:34:36.240)
And ultimately, the appearance itself is not just enough to sell the book. You're selling yourself as a human being. And that requires having chemistry and all those kinds of things.
Sarma Melngailis (2:34:45.240)
Yeah, I agree.
Lex Fridman (2:34:47.240)
And podcast appearances are exhausting. Like you're giving a lot of yourself. It's intimate. It's deep. Like, I don't know.
Lex Fridman (2:34:55.240)
Anyway, road trip. You don't remember the motels and the hotels along the way?
Sarma Melngailis (2:35:01.240)
Well, there are a lot of things where like, I'll remember things that happened, but I don't remember where it was.
Sarma Melngailis (2:35:06.240)
He just drove without a destination. Really.
Sarma Melngailis (2:35:10.240)
I assume he must have known ahead of time, but he made it seem like, like, oh, funny we ended up in Vegas. Funny how that happened.
Lex Fridman (2:35:20.240)
But it now when I see all the places that we stopped, they were all places with where there are casinos.
Lex Fridman (2:35:27.240)
So there's a lot more casinos around the country than I knew.
Lex Fridman (2:35:33.240)
And they're.
Lex Fridman (2:35:35.240)
So he had a gambling addiction.
Sarma Melngailis (2:35:38.240)
Yeah. Yes. But I think that it's not. So I think that regular people have gambling addictions and it's a horrible, tragic thing and can destroy their lives.
Lex Fridman (2:35:48.240)
And I know people like it. Regular people can have a gambling addiction, which is explained in the way that addictions are explained for him.
Sarma Melngailis (2:35:59.240)
I don't think it was so much an addiction as like a thrill seeking because he could win money, lose money, and he didn't really care.
Sarma Melngailis (2:36:10.240)
Whereas somebody who has an actual addiction and then all normal people with normal human emotions, you know, would either be elated and relieved or devastated to lose a lot of money.
Lex Fridman (2:36:25.240)
And for him, it didn't really care. It was more, again, I think it was more just like a game.
Lex Fridman (2:36:30.240)
Like, what was going through your mind here? Like, would you be on the run? Did you feel like you were on the run?
Sarma Melngailis (2:36:36.240)
No.
Lex Fridman (2:36:37.240)
Did you know you were on the run?
Sarma Melngailis (2:36:40.240)
No. So I didn't know that. I mean, the other thing is the restaurant was operating and he took me away.
Lex Fridman (2:36:48.240)
And then, like, people weren't paid and it all sort of fell apart.
Lex Fridman (2:36:53.240)
And you weren't checking your texts or any of that?
Sarma Melngailis (2:36:56.240)
No. And then he had my phone and my email. I did later on get, later on I got a brand new phone with like an empty phone with no existing numbers in it or whatnot.
Lex Fridman (2:37:11.240)
And so that he and I could communicate when, you know, I was, went to the grocery store or something like that.
Lex Fridman (2:37:19.240)
What was the, what was the reason he had the phone? Like, what was the narrative, the story that he was taking over your phone?
Lex Fridman (2:37:28.240)
Was it, I mean, like, how did you allow that to happen? Or maybe a better way to ask is, how did he make that happen?
Sarma Melngailis (2:37:40.240)
Well, I was conditioned to it before because before he was always checking my phone, which was wildly infuriating. And I feel like, like.
Sarma Melngailis (2:37:53.240)
You fixed it by giving him the phone.
Lex Fridman (2:37:56.240)
Well, I mean, the conditions were different later on.
Lex Fridman (2:37:59.240)
But in some sense, I didn't want my phone because everything, like I was in a state of shock and it was just like, take it, fine.
Sarma Melngailis (2:38:06.240)
Like, I give up. Like, I guess I'd given up. And so, yeah, I'd given up. So there was no, like, I wasn't going to fight back on anything.
Sarma Melngailis (2:38:16.240)
Before, when he would take my phone and look through it, it was, it was infuriating. And he sort of forced me to get used to it.
Lex Fridman (2:38:25.240)
And this is, again, something that, like, people who've been in cults would understand because it's like they condition you to not react negatively to things that you would normally react negatively to.
Lex Fridman (2:38:35.240)
And like, if I was in a relationship, like, if somebody, I would never, ever look in somebody's phone. And if somebody did that to me, I would be like, goodbye.
Lex Fridman (2:38:50.240)
So I'm pretty sensitive about that. And so it was very infuriating when he would take my phone and look at it.
Lex Fridman (2:38:59.240)
And it got to the point where not only did I feel like everything I, you know, said or wrote or emailed digitally or whatnot would be read,
Lex Fridman (2:39:11.240)
but he got me to the point of feeling like I was being watched all the time in a non explainable way.
Sarma Melngailis (2:39:21.240)
Yeah, what were some of the, you didn't mention them, the documentary touched on some of them. What are some of the fantastical stories? So he mentioned that he might help make Leon immortal.
Sarma Melngailis (2:39:37.240)
All of that was always really vague. Intentionally, like a lot of what he talked about was always very vague. But a lot of that stuff was very vague. And again, like, slowly over time.
Lex Fridman (2:39:49.240)
And a lot of those things, too, are things that, you know, conveniently, you kind of can't disprove. So it's almost like, you know, people believe in God or religious people believe certain things.
Lex Fridman (2:40:04.240)
And so one could argue, why is it that much crazier for me to have been open to the idea that, you know, maybe Leon, maybe we do live forever, in some way when a lot of religious people have similar beliefs.
Lex Fridman (2:40:21.240)
So one of the other thing is, he was, what, maybe you can correct me, but reincarnated or something like that, or?
Sarma Melngailis (2:40:30.240)
He acted like he had lived many lifetimes, and had all kinds of wisdom from having lived all these prior lifetimes, and being aware of it.
Lex Fridman (2:40:44.240)
So was that, and it was vague, but it was somehow believable? Or is it just like part of the charm? Like, what, how do you, how do you not call bullshit?
Lex Fridman (2:40:59.240)
I know.
Sarma Melngailis (2:41:00.240)
Not necessarily bullshit. I understand when you're smitten in whatever way. But like, a little more details, proof. I suppose it's easy to just, you know, like, put it off for later. Assume that more details will come later.
Lex Fridman (2:41:21.240)
But I think he's a mentalist or an illusionist named Darren Brown. And it was on a Joe Rogan podcast. I think Joe interviewed Darren Brown. I think Sam Harris interviewed him. I got really intrigued.
Lex Fridman (2:41:37.240)
And then I was looking for other podcasts, or maybe Joe interviewed him, like, right after. I may have gone looking for it. But anyway, it was in the conversation with Joe where Darren explains, he's somebody I would love to meet, a mentalist and an illusionist, because they understand a lot of the ways in which the mind can be manipulated.
Lex Fridman (2:41:56.240)
So I feel like they would, if they looked at everything about my situation, they would be able to understand better how he was able to get me to believe things or go along with things. Because Darren Brown is pretty fascinating what he does.
Lex Fridman (2:42:11.240)
And he's really seems like a very kind person, and he's very open about it. And when he was talking to Joe, he said this thing that, and I use this quote in my book. And again, I'm paraphrasing because I don't have it in front of me.
Lex Fridman (2:42:27.240)
But it's like, he says something about how we want to believe the lie, because we'd rather believe that it's something amazing than just that ugly and pathetic a lie. And whatever he said was said in a much better way.
Lex Fridman (2:42:45.240)
And so he was explaining it in the context of the way that an illusionist or whatever they're called is able to pull off certain things, which is about somebody who was watching and watched that person leverage people's tendency to want to believe that something amazing and cool is about to happen versus this is just a really ugly, pathetic lie.
Lex Fridman (2:43:14.240)
So I think that a lot of the things that Mr. Fox, that he put forward, I couldn't understand it from the perspective of it being a lie because it just seemed too weird and crazy. So I think that this happens sometimes where you believe somebody because it seems so weird that they would lie about it.
Sarma Melngailis (2:43:39.240)
I think that somebody has, or it's been said sometimes that the more fantastical the lie, the more believable it is because you don't believe that somebody would tell that lie. And I think something also that Mr. Fox, people like him are capable of doing is going out and lying in very brazen ways that normal people would be terrified to do.
Lex Fridman (2:44:02.240)
And that kind of also makes it more believable. So if somebody could go out on a world stage and lie and not kind of feel weird about that or even knowing that it's a lie that can be pointed out as being a lie.
Lex Fridman (2:44:20.240)
There's also the layer of to what extent is this person in some way also delusional themselves and sort of believing their lies because people have asked me that and I've wondered the same thing. To what extent did he believe some of the stuff he was saying?
Lex Fridman (2:44:34.240)
And I think probably there was some sort of delusional aspect, almost like he was sort of halfway aware of playing his own sort of virtual reality game, like he was in some kind of metaverse in his brain.
Lex Fridman (2:44:51.240)
So you think he believed some of the things he was saying?
Sarma Melngailis (2:44:54.240)
In some way, yeah. Or he wanted to, because he wanted to be his own, he wanted to be a superhero. He never built anything or created anything or accomplished anything in his life. Yet, so in his own brain, if he could turn himself into a movie superhero.
Lex Fridman (2:45:13.240)
That's a nice shortcut. What about the Navy SEAL thing? Did that ever get resolved? The lie that he said that he's a Navy SEAL?
Sarma Melngailis (2:45:26.240)
I don't know if he said he was a Navy SEAL or that he implied that he worked with the CIA or then it was like he worked with Black Ops that is by definition under the radar. So I mean, that's obviously a huge red flag now going forward.
Sarma Melngailis (2:45:45.240)
First of all, if somebody tells you that information pretty quickly, that's itself a red flag.
Lex Fridman (2:45:52.240)
All right. You crossed that off my list of pickup lines.
Sarma Melngailis (2:45:58.240)
But, you know, conveniently, if he say in some world he actually did work for like Blackwater or one of those places, I wouldn't be able to just call someplace and verify it.
Sarma Melngailis (2:46:16.240)
Anyway, I think that in some psychological way that I don't understand, he probably did in some way halfway exists in this world where he was this, you know, like fighter and he would say things like, it's because of people like me that people like you can sleep at night, which is probably a line out of a movie that I've never seen.
Sarma Melngailis (2:46:39.240)
I feel like a lot of things. That's funny. That is a great. Who said that? Is that really a line out of a movie? It's not a movie.
Lex Fridman (2:46:50.240)
You know what would happen at Rikers is when these things would happen where one of us couldn't think of something and you're like, oh, who was that actor in that movie in that thing?
Sarma Melngailis (2:46:59.240)
No. And so what we do is like somebody would be on the phone and you'd be like, hey, who are you talking to? Can you ask them to look up on their phone? Like, so we'd ask people on the phone or somebody would go make a call and, you know, you'd have to call somebody and ask them to Google the cast of a movie or something like that.
Sarma Melngailis (2:47:17.240)
I think you would find jail. Don't ever get arrested or try not to, but I think you would find jail fascinating.
Sarma Melngailis (2:47:22.240)
Oh, I always wanted to go to jail, prison, because there's a lot of elements to it and I'll ask you questions about it, but I feel like I can get a lot of reading done.
Lex Fridman (2:47:32.240)
I got a ton of reading done.
Sarma Melngailis (2:47:33.240)
Yeah, yeah, yes. I remember now. People attribute this to George Orwell, but they're not sure if George Orwell ever said it, but it's something like there's a lot of different variations.
Lex Fridman (2:47:44.240)
But we sleep safely at night because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would harm us. And there's a lot of variations of this, but basically we depend, our entire society depends on bad motherfuckers who are willing to fight to protect our freedoms, to protect our wellbeing.
Lex Fridman (2:48:04.240)
And one of the things about the United States is because we're surrounded by water, we don't get to see the violence that's required in part to protect the sovereignty of nations.
Sarma Melngailis (2:48:20.240)
You mentioned that I would, not to go to prison, but that I may enjoy my time there. Let me ask you, by the way, I love prison movies.
Sarma Melngailis (2:48:33.240)
You would find it fascinating. I don't because it's still kind of too soon.
Lex Fridman (2:48:38.240)
Well, how was your time? You spent three and a half months at Rikers. How was that? How was your experience in prison? How's the food from a chef perspective?
Sarma Melngailis (2:48:51.240)
Not good, but Rikers was, when I got to Rikers, so I was arrested. I spent, I think about 10 days in a small town Tennessee jail. Pigeon Forge is also the weirdest place on earth.
Lex Fridman (2:49:09.240)
Is it a town?
Sarma Melngailis (2:49:10.240)
Yes, it's the town where I was arrested.
Lex Fridman (2:49:12.240)
Why is it so weird?
Sarma Melngailis (2:49:14.240)
In the film, I told them, I told them, you have to go to Pigeon Forge, you have to go there, you have to go there. And I think I was pushing them because it was going to potentially be the end of the season.
Sarma Melngailis (2:49:26.240)
It's like a summertime or it's a tourist destination. And it's so bizarre and weird and trippy that it doesn't even seem real.
Sarma Melngailis (2:49:40.240)
It seems like a carnival is happening there nonstop.
Sarma Melngailis (2:49:42.240)
Exactly. I think I say that in my intro, that it's carnivalesque and trippy and weird.
Lex Fridman (2:49:50.240)
Is there a lot of clowns walking around?
Sarma Melngailis (2:49:53.240)
Not necessarily clowns, but there is a video on YouTube that I, cause I got to the chapter where we arrive in Pigeon Forge and I'll never forget, although I have forgotten, but I remember being like weirdly, like felt like we were, had entered a different universe driving down the strip and just looking at everything on either side.
Lex Fridman (2:50:16.240)
And I'm wishing that I could remember in more detail, like the names of the places or what was there because I wanted to describe it in this chapter.
Lex Fridman (2:50:24.240)
And I was like, I wish somebody, I wish there was like a video of somebody going down the street, kind of showing what's on one side and then the other side.
Lex Fridman (2:50:31.240)
And I was like, there probably is, and there is on YouTube. Like I found it and I watched the whole thing.
Lex Fridman (2:50:37.240)
How does this come up from prison exactly?
Sarma Melngailis (2:50:39.240)
Pigeon.
Lex Fridman (2:50:40.240)
Oh, okay.
Lex Fridman (2:50:41.240)
Why did that spark?
Lex Fridman (2:50:42.240)
So that's the town that I went to jail in.
Sarma Melngailis (2:50:44.240)
Oh, right.
Lex Fridman (2:50:46.240)
In Tennessee.
Lex Fridman (2:50:47.240)
What was that like?
Sarma Melngailis (2:50:48.240)
The food there and some of the conditions, the food made, when I got to, then I was extradited and transferred to Rikers.
Lex Fridman (2:50:58.240)
And when I got to Rikers, I felt like it was like the four seasons in comparison.
Lex Fridman (2:51:03.240)
Wow.
Sarma Melngailis (2:51:04.240)
So, and I really kind of appreciated a lot of things about New York when I got to Rikers, even though there are a lot of things that are very scary about it.
Lex Fridman (2:51:15.240)
Where's Rikers located? Is it close to New York City?
Sarma Melngailis (2:51:19.240)
Yes. And in a very kind of almost poetically interesting way.
Sarma Melngailis (2:51:25.240)
The dorm room where I was when I was there for the three and a half months was one of the ones that faced Manhattan, so I could go across the room and look out the window and see the whole Manhattan skyline.
Sarma Melngailis (2:51:37.240)
Get a view.
Lex Fridman (2:51:38.240)
Which was.
Sarma Melngailis (2:51:39.240)
I remember being shocked by the cost per prisoner per year.
Lex Fridman (2:51:47.240)
Yes.
Sarma Melngailis (2:51:48.240)
That New York pays. It's like $400,000, $500,000 or something.
Sarma Melngailis (2:51:53.240)
I didn't think it was that much. I thought I wrote it down, but either way it is.
Sarma Melngailis (2:51:56.240)
No, I mean, it's elevated during COVID, which is fascinating to that the number I just said.
Sarma Melngailis (2:52:04.240)
Yeah. During COVID, I felt sick to my stomach thinking about people stuck there.
Lex Fridman (2:52:09.240)
And again, so Rikers isn't like a long term prison.
Sarma Melngailis (2:52:12.240)
It's most of the people at Rikers are awaiting trial and they've been arrested but not convicted.
Lex Fridman (2:52:19.240)
And then if you're convicted and you're sentenced to less than a year, then you put on a different color uniform and you go upstairs to different dorms.
Sarma Melngailis (2:52:27.240)
If you're convicted and sentenced to more than a year, you're sent to one of the upstate prisons.
Lex Fridman (2:52:33.240)
So most of the people at Rikers are there in transition. They've been arrested but not convicted or awaiting trial. So you could be perfectly innocent and you're stuck there and that happens to a lot of people.
Sarma Melngailis (2:52:49.240)
Or you could be arrested over some kind of comparatively petty thing or nonviolent thing and stuck there because you don't have as little as $500 to pay bail, which is completely messed up and unjust.
Lex Fridman (2:53:07.240)
And I think most people, most reasonable people agree that it's unjust. But it's different when you're there and you see those people and you see kind of the anguish.
Sarma Melngailis (2:53:19.240)
I mean, I have no idea if they're guilty of what. I mean, I usually don't know what people are there for or what the situation is, but you watch the sort of helplessness set in because you're kind of powerless there. You have very little contact with the outside world.
Sarma Melngailis (2:53:37.240)
You have these limited phone calls.
Lex Fridman (2:53:39.240)
And so for people who had kids and a job and an apartment, it's like one by one those things are lost or their kids are now being looked after by their abusive ex husband or something like that.
Lex Fridman (2:53:50.240)
And so watching that is just gut wrenching.
Lex Fridman (2:53:53.240)
And then also knowing that the only reason they're unable to get out is because of, you know, a thousand dollars, two thousand dollars, in some cases five hundred dollars. There were people. So there's all of these tragic cases.
Lex Fridman (2:54:09.240)
But then there was also while I was there, I mean, if I'd had any money, I would have been wanting to bail people out left and right.
Lex Fridman (2:54:16.240)
And then in some cases, I think there was a woman there snored really loud and her bail was five hundred dollars. And I was like, I wish I had a bail.
Sarma Melngailis (2:54:26.240)
She just wanted to bail her out. So because I'm pretty sensitive to sounds and being in a room with 50 people, inevitably.
Lex Fridman (2:54:34.240)
So you're in a room with a large number of people.
Sarma Melngailis (2:54:37.240)
Yeah, there are there are areas there with cells, but a lot of the areas there are rooms with 50 beds.
Lex Fridman (2:54:48.240)
So and there are about three feet apart from each other. So during covid, there was certainly no social distancing.
Lex Fridman (2:54:55.240)
And that just felt kind of sickening, especially because so many people are there for nonviolent things or drug addiction related or mental health issues.
Lex Fridman (2:55:09.240)
How did that, you personally, just having spent that time there for three and a half months, how did that change you? Like what did that have an effect on your mind?
Sarma Melngailis (2:55:26.240)
On my mind, personally, I think I was I was surprised at how well I adapted and then how I was able to.
Lex Fridman (2:55:39.240)
And then I think I sort of took it to the next level when one of the books somebody sent me was The Untethered Soul by Michael Singer.
Lex Fridman (2:55:47.240)
And it's very much about like observing your mind. And that kind of helped take it to the next level.
Lex Fridman (2:55:55.240)
So was this like a meditation retreat for you?
Sarma Melngailis (2:55:58.240)
Well, it's like it'd be like trying to meditate in the middle of a circus or in crazy circumstances because you're never alone.
Sarma Melngailis (2:56:08.240)
There's nowhere to be alone. And there's always talking, there's noises, there's fighting noises, chaos.
Sarma Melngailis (2:56:15.240)
Did you feel in danger? Yes, but I never I never felt terrified there.
Sarma Melngailis (2:56:28.240)
You know, one of my friends, the bathroom is the scary place because they don't have cameras in the in the bathroom.
Lex Fridman (2:56:36.240)
So that's sort of a one has to watch out there. And I did one of my friends who I one of the people I was friends with there, she did get beat up a bit in the bathroom one day.
Lex Fridman (2:56:49.240)
A lot of weird shit happened in the bathroom.
Lex Fridman (2:56:54.240)
But it was from a if you're interested in human behavior and psychology, and it's, it can be fascinating to kind of sit there and watch.
Sarma Melngailis (2:57:06.240)
You're saying like, you might enjoy prison for that perspective, like just you get to watch human nature.
Sarma Melngailis (2:57:11.240)
It's like, I don't want to say that it's worse, but like the full variety that it can take.
Lex Fridman (2:57:17.240)
Right. And there was a lot of beauty there as well.
Lex Fridman (2:57:20.240)
Was there love?
Sarma Melngailis (2:57:21.240)
People being well, again, depends on the definition of love, but people being, you know, incredibly generous and kind to each other.
Sarma Melngailis (2:57:33.240)
Sometimes people singing at night.
Lex Fridman (2:57:38.240)
There was just a lot of.
Lex Fridman (2:57:41.240)
And then there's a lot of, you know, hilarious stuff.
Sarma Melngailis (2:57:44.240)
It's just it's all there. There's like, there's tragic things. You know, interesting things.
Sarma Melngailis (2:57:52.240)
A lot of people with mental health issues, which is can be difficult to witness.
Lex Fridman (2:57:58.240)
So very different experience. I should ask you this, but somebody that's currently in prison.
Sarma Melngailis (2:58:07.240)
Ghislaine Maxwell, I believe she spent approximately 500 days in isolation.
Lex Fridman (2:58:15.240)
So it's a very difficult, different prison experience.
Lex Fridman (2:58:20.240)
But what do you think about her case? What do you think about her and Jeffrey Epstein?
Lex Fridman (2:58:24.240)
She, so her brother, her family, she says that she's a victim, not the monster.
Sarma Melngailis (2:58:36.240)
I think this is an especially fascinating case because and I've I have listened to podcasts about the Epstein situation.
Lex Fridman (2:58:48.240)
And there is one that was more focused on her by Vicki Ward that I would definitely listen to.
Sarma Melngailis (2:58:55.240)
Vicki Ward is a journalist.
Lex Fridman (2:58:58.240)
I think she'd written an article about Jeffrey Epstein for Vanity Fair.
Lex Fridman (2:59:01.240)
So she got to know Jeffrey Epstein and then she knew Ghislaine Maxwell from being sort of part of the social circle in which they would have overlapped.
Lex Fridman (2:59:11.240)
Have you, by the way, ever met them since this New York?
Lex Fridman (2:59:15.240)
Do you remember meeting this, you know, Jeffrey or Ghislaine?
Sarma Melngailis (2:59:21.240)
No, I never met them. But they're also very much like this sort of Upper East Side crowd.
Sarma Melngailis (2:59:26.240)
I did meet Harvey Weinstein once that made me have all kinds of interesting thoughts later.
Lex Fridman (2:59:31.240)
At the restaurant or elsewhere?
Sarma Melngailis (2:59:32.240)
No, it was weird. It was out on the street.
Lex Fridman (2:59:36.240)
And we had this really strange interaction. And knowing what I know now, it was eerie.
Lex Fridman (2:59:43.240)
And and also, like, had he contacted me after that and made it seem like he could have done something for me?
Sarma Melngailis (2:59:50.240)
Like, would I have been, you know, say he said, oh, I'm going to finance your whole expansion or something and like, come to my, you know, come meet me at this hotel.
Sarma Melngailis (30:01.120)
It's spreadable marshmallows, kind of.
Lex Fridman (30:03.440)
Oh, I see.
Sarma Melngailis (30:04.960)
I think that's, yeah.
Lex Fridman (30:06.240)
So spreadable marshmallows.
Sarma Melngailis (30:07.520)
Got it.
Lex Fridman (30:08.000)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (30:08.320)
So there's a big blob of that.
Lex Fridman (30:09.360)
I didn't know that existed.
Lex Fridman (30:10.400)
That's a thing?
Lex Fridman (30:11.200)
Fluff.
Sarma Melngailis (30:11.840)
Fluff.
Lex Fridman (30:12.640)
I know.
Lex Fridman (30:13.120)
Does everyone, do people know about this?
Lex Fridman (30:16.400)
Oh yeah, everybody knows.
Sarma Melngailis (30:17.440)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (30:18.480)
People, I mean, I think so.
Sarma Melngailis (30:19.760)
People know about fluff.
Sarma Melngailis (30:21.120)
See, I think I went, I took the road less traveled by, you know, I went the peanut butter
Lex Fridman (30:27.360)
and Nutella road in terms of spreadable things.
Lex Fridman (30:30.480)
Nutella is like the chocolate version.
Lex Fridman (30:33.280)
And then fluff is like the vanilla equivalent sort of.
Lex Fridman (30:37.680)
Cool.
Lex Fridman (30:38.240)
But I think commercial fluff that you buy in the store is just like sugar and whatever
Lex Fridman (30:42.800)
else they put in there.
Sarma Melngailis (30:45.920)
It's not actually fluffy.
Lex Fridman (30:48.000)
It's kind of fluffy.
Sarma Melngailis (30:49.520)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (30:49.920)
But it's wet.
Sarma Melngailis (30:51.200)
Because Nutella is not fluffy.
Sarma Melngailis (30:53.200)
Yeah, it's, it, so it's like Nutella if you whipped it and then kind of got a little bit
Sarma Melngailis (30:59.120)
like a little bit aerated.
Lex Fridman (31:01.440)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (31:01.680)
So it's a bit more fluffy.
Lex Fridman (31:03.760)
So fluff was a part of the formula here.
Lex Fridman (31:06.160)
So this fluff.
Lex Fridman (31:06.960)
So the, the coconut cream that we made was like a healthy version of fluff kind of.
Sarma Melngailis (31:15.040)
Nice.
Sarma Melngailis (31:15.600)
Except it would, you know, you could make a, a Quesnel, like a, like a little scoop
Sarma Melngailis (31:20.800)
of it and it would stay in that form.
Lex Fridman (31:24.000)
Malamars were refrigerated and then there's like chocolate drizzled over that.
Lex Fridman (31:29.200)
So it had that like salty, sweet thing going on.
Lex Fridman (31:33.360)
That was probably my favorite.
Sarma Melngailis (31:35.200)
That's a dessert.
Lex Fridman (31:36.720)
Yeah, it was like a, it was like a dessert snack.
Sarma Melngailis (31:39.520)
It wasn't as, you wouldn't order it on the restaurant menu, but in the takeaway you could
Sarma Melngailis (31:43.040)
get them or sometimes some people would get them shipped on dry ice and pay a lot of money,
Sarma Melngailis (31:51.600)
like a lot of money to have them shipped on dry ice.
Lex Fridman (31:54.720)
People are funny.
Sarma Melngailis (31:55.840)
I know.
Lex Fridman (31:56.480)
I kind of want to like name drop cause it was Tom Brady used to order them.
Sarma Melngailis (32:00.320)
Oh, that's awesome.
Lex Fridman (32:01.280)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (32:01.600)
They would order those shipped on ice to Boston.
Lex Fridman (32:08.160)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (32:08.480)
Um, continuing on in 2011, you meet Anthony Strangers on Twitter and then in real life,
Sarma Melngailis (32:15.840)
also around this time, I think before you got your rescue dog, a pit bull named Leon.
Sarma Melngailis (32:22.960)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (32:23.120)
2011, 2010.
Lex Fridman (32:24.560)
Do you remember?
Lex Fridman (32:25.120)
Um, it was September, 2010.
Sarma Melngailis (32:27.840)
So, cause I think he was born roughly around March.
Lex Fridman (32:30.560)
I gave him a designated birthday of March 10th, 2010.
Lex Fridman (32:34.800)
Why is that?
Lex Fridman (32:35.520)
Why, why March 10th?
Sarma Melngailis (32:37.360)
I wrote about the story of adopting him on my website a long time ago.
Lex Fridman (32:42.000)
And then I reposted it here on my current website.
Sarma Melngailis (32:44.560)
And, um, what happened, I got weirdly obsessed with Leon before he was Leon.
Sarma Melngailis (32:50.000)
He was a dog in a shelter named Quinn and, um, I couldn't stop thinking about him and the
Sarma Melngailis (32:55.600)
Him specifically.
Lex Fridman (32:56.800)
Him specifically.
Sarma Melngailis (32:57.520)
You saw him and there's something very special about him.
Lex Fridman (33:00.480)
I was trying to convince somebody else to adopt a dog.
Sarma Melngailis (33:03.280)
So, and I
Lex Fridman (33:04.560)
Alec Baldwin.
Sarma Melngailis (33:05.520)
Yeah, and it didn't occur to me that I would get a dog.
Lex Fridman (33:07.760)
I like how you didn't name drop him, but you named him Tom Brady.
Sarma Melngailis (33:12.880)
I like it.
Sarma Melngailis (33:13.760)
Um, so I was trying to convince him to get a dog cause I thought, you know, he should
Sarma Melngailis (33:19.920)
have a dog.
Sarma Melngailis (33:21.200)
I saw Leon's picture and just got weirdly obsessed with it in a way that I couldn't
Sarma Melngailis (33:25.520)
really explain.
Sarma Melngailis (33:26.240)
And, um, I was laying in bed one night and thinking, I just couldn't stop thinking about
Sarma Melngailis (33:30.560)
him, um, the dog and the paperwork or the, his description in the shelter bio said that
Lex Fridman (33:38.880)
he was roughly five months old or however, whatever it gave us his age.
Sarma Melngailis (33:43.040)
I went back and it would have been March 20, would have been March of that year that he
Lex Fridman (33:48.560)
was born.
Sarma Melngailis (33:49.760)
And, um, I had a cat that I was particularly attached to.
Sarma Melngailis (33:54.320)
I had two cats, brother and sister, but the boy cat, we had sort of like a, something
Sarma Melngailis (33:59.120)
that felt like a, you know, like we'd look at each other and like there was something
Lex Fridman (34:04.000)
there.
Sarma Melngailis (34:04.400)
I don't know what it was, but, um, and in fact, when he got sick, I knew it before
Lex Fridman (34:09.360)
he even had any symptoms.
Sarma Melngailis (34:10.560)
It was like something in the way that he looked at me.
Lex Fridman (34:12.640)
I knew something was wrong.
Lex Fridman (34:14.240)
And then, uh, was it friendship?
Lex Fridman (34:16.720)
Was it like, uh, was there a power dynamic?
Sarma Melngailis (34:21.600)
Cats seem to not really give a fuck.
Lex Fridman (34:24.320)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (34:24.880)
They seem to dismiss you.
Lex Fridman (34:27.520)
Usually.
Sarma Melngailis (34:28.160)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (34:29.120)
Your entire worth as a human being.
Sarma Melngailis (34:31.120)
Right.
Lex Fridman (34:31.520)
In a single look.
Lex Fridman (34:33.120)
Was that there or?
Lex Fridman (34:34.160)
Um, he was more dog like.
Sarma Melngailis (34:37.440)
He would occasionally fetch like this little styrofoam thing I had.
Sarma Melngailis (34:40.960)
He would fetch it and bring it back and he was, um, friendly and, you know, if somebody
Sarma Melngailis (34:45.760)
came over, he would jump in their lap.
Lex Fridman (34:47.520)
Um, he was less standoffish than most cats.
Sarma Melngailis (34:51.520)
Um, but there was just something about the way he would look at me.
Lex Fridman (34:54.960)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (34:55.520)
And I maybe probably in his mind, he's just a cat.
Lex Fridman (35:00.880)
I give him food.
Sarma Melngailis (35:02.320)
Whereas in my mind, it's some kind of, you know, great soul connection.
Lex Fridman (35:07.360)
Great, great long running, uh, romance.
Sarma Melngailis (35:10.320)
Not in his kitty mind, but either way.
Lex Fridman (35:12.240)
So he died in March and I thought, um, so I sort of concocted this.
Sarma Melngailis (35:18.160)
I just thought, um, you know, that, well, if he died and he died on March 10th.
Lex Fridman (35:24.240)
And so I thought, well, maybe Leon was born that same day.
Lex Fridman (35:26.880)
And that's why, that's why I'm so drawn to him.
Lex Fridman (35:31.680)
I don't know.
Sarma Melngailis (35:33.920)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (35:34.240)
That makes sense.
Lex Fridman (35:35.360)
But then you just felt like when you saw him, you just like, there's something.
Lex Fridman (35:39.920)
It was his picture.
Sarma Melngailis (35:40.880)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (35:41.280)
Oh, the picture.
Lex Fridman (35:42.160)
And you were drawn something about the personality in the eyes.
Lex Fridman (35:47.200)
It was something about his picture.
Sarma Melngailis (35:48.480)
I don't know what it was.
Lex Fridman (35:49.520)
And, um, and everybody at the time was like, what are you thinking?
Lex Fridman (35:55.520)
Why would you get a dog?
Lex Fridman (35:56.640)
You can't, you know, can't even take care of yourself.
Sarma Melngailis (36:00.160)
You're overworked and busy.
Lex Fridman (36:01.920)
And why would you get a five month old pit bull mix?
Lex Fridman (36:05.520)
You know, why not get an older dog?
Lex Fridman (36:06.960)
That's easier to take care of.
Sarma Melngailis (36:08.160)
And, um, for me, it was like, I don't, I don't want any dog.
Sarma Melngailis (36:12.160)
I don't want, my intention isn't to get a dog, but there's something about this dog that I
Sarma Melngailis (36:17.840)
have to get.
Lex Fridman (36:18.480)
And so I went to see him, um, and then I had already filled out an application.
Sarma Melngailis (36:25.920)
It was just, I went to see him and then I, it was the afternoon and I sort of decided in my head,
Lex Fridman (36:33.440)
like, all right, I'm coming back to get him.
Sarma Melngailis (36:35.120)
I have to.
Lex Fridman (36:35.920)
And so the next morning I got on the subway and went back to get him.
Sarma Melngailis (36:38.960)
Um, and I was crying on the subway.
Lex Fridman (36:41.440)
And I remember thinking that people, I don't like crying in public.
Sarma Melngailis (36:44.960)
I cry a lot, but I don't like crying in front of other people.
Lex Fridman (36:47.440)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (36:48.000)
And, um.
Lex Fridman (36:48.640)
I love it.
Sarma Melngailis (36:51.520)
I thought people on the train looking at me probably think that, you know, I just,
Lex Fridman (36:55.680)
somebody died or.
Lex Fridman (36:56.800)
Sorry, you, you're crying on the way there or on the way back?
Lex Fridman (36:59.040)
On the way there to get him.
Sarma Melngailis (37:00.480)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (37:00.800)
I don't, and I don't know why I was crying.
Sarma Melngailis (37:02.480)
It was just something about it was overwhelming.
Lex Fridman (37:04.240)
So.
Lex Fridman (37:05.200)
So tears of happiness or tears of something.
Lex Fridman (37:08.480)
Something.
Sarma Melngailis (37:09.200)
I, yeah, I think tears are overwhelming.
Lex Fridman (37:13.520)
I, and now I'm like jumping off, but there was some, I don't, now I'm trying.
Lex Fridman (37:19.600)
Was it in your conversation or the book?
Lex Fridman (37:21.520)
Carl Diceruff talks about tears of joy and trying to explain them.
Lex Fridman (37:25.680)
And he said something about how it was like about, you know, cause tears of sadness could
Lex Fridman (37:32.080)
be understood in a having like a evolutionary purpose.
Lex Fridman (37:36.320)
Um, but why tears of joy?
Lex Fridman (37:38.320)
And I think he said it was something about like hope that could be like lost.
Lex Fridman (37:46.000)
So if you cried at a wedding, it might be like, you're crying because their love is
Sarma Melngailis (37:50.880)
beautiful and you're crying because, you know, they could get hit by a bus tomorrow or
Sarma Melngailis (37:55.760)
something, you know, like it had something to do with that.
Lex Fridman (37:57.600)
And I thought, um, but I thought to me, it feels like overwhelmed.
Lex Fridman (38:02.720)
Cause then how would that explain music?
Lex Fridman (38:05.040)
Cause music will make me cry.
Sarma Melngailis (38:06.400)
A lot because it's, it's anything beautiful, like love, you realize you're going to have,
Lex Fridman (38:14.320)
it's going to be over one day.
Lex Fridman (38:16.240)
So it's just overwhelming.
Lex Fridman (38:18.240)
It could be overwhelming.
Sarma Melngailis (38:19.280)
I think it's just overwhelming.
Lex Fridman (38:20.400)
But over, it could be like, if you had to explain like one way to explain it, as you're
Sarma Melngailis (38:25.680)
saying is it's so awesome that it breaks your heart.
Lex Fridman (38:29.920)
That's going to be over.
Sarma Melngailis (38:30.880)
This feeling is going to be over the either it's the song or the person.
Lex Fridman (38:37.120)
You're going to lose them one day.
Lex Fridman (38:39.600)
But even when you're just watching something that this is completely ridiculous, but I
Sarma Melngailis (38:43.520)
remember one time I probably was hormonal or something, but it was like an episode of
Sarma Melngailis (38:48.800)
family feud years ago and the fam, oh no.
Lex Fridman (38:53.200)
Um, wheel of fortune.
Sarma Melngailis (38:55.040)
It was wheel of fortune and some family like won all this money and they were so happy.
Lex Fridman (38:58.960)
Like it just, they were so happy.
Sarma Melngailis (39:01.200)
They must probably needed the money or something.
Lex Fridman (39:03.120)
I started crying and I'm thinking, why am I crying?
Lex Fridman (39:06.080)
But I think it's just, I think it's just like an overwhelming, I think it's overwhelming
Lex Fridman (39:10.640)
in some way and crying because crying is a relief.
Sarma Melngailis (39:14.240)
Like you feel better after you cry, but that's not, doesn't explain the crying.
Sarma Melngailis (39:20.320)
You feel better after you cry and you're saying it's overwhelming, but that's on the surface.
Sarma Melngailis (39:25.840)
The question is what's going on underneath.
Lex Fridman (39:28.080)
That's the yin and yang shadow.
Lex Fridman (39:30.560)
And I don't think neither you or I can answer that question, but there's something going
Lex Fridman (39:34.640)
on underneath.
Sarma Melngailis (39:35.040)
There's probably something that touches you in some specific way.
Lex Fridman (39:38.880)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (39:40.160)
And so you were crying on the subway.
Lex Fridman (39:42.480)
So I was crying on the subway.
Sarma Melngailis (39:43.520)
It's very, it's very New York thing to do.
Lex Fridman (39:45.600)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (39:46.160)
Well, that's one of the things I love about New York is people, you can be weird and do
Lex Fridman (39:51.520)
strange things and nobody's going to look at you strangely or.
Sarma Melngailis (39:54.400)
The fascinating thing about New York is super crowded and yet you can still feel super alone.
Lex Fridman (3:00:01.240)
And then I go to that hotel and he's like, come up to the room. And then I would have been like, uh.
Lex Fridman (3:00:05.240)
And you're wondering whether you would have done it.
Sarma Melngailis (3:00:09.240)
Yes. And sadly, I think I would have. And so I felt a lot of compassion for those who, you know, didn't yell at him and leave or didn't storm out.
Lex Fridman (3:00:25.240)
And because I think what happens in those situations is, you know, there's all kinds of uncertainty in the moment and you sort of freeze and then you'll if I'm probably one of those people that would sit there and somehow in the moment.
Sarma Melngailis (3:00:44.240)
Without clarity, just instinctively feel like somehow I must have done something wrong and it's my fault. And I'm like, I led him on and are just being afraid.
Lex Fridman (3:00:55.240)
And then and then you don't know how to deal with it. And so you freeze.
Lex Fridman (3:01:00.240)
So I think that, you know, if you're somebody that maybe was raised differently or you have a lot of self confidence or you might have reacted differently and kind of pushed him away and stormed out.
Lex Fridman (3:01:19.240)
But I am probably not one of those people.
Lex Fridman (3:01:22.240)
But I did not ever meet Jeffrey Epstein, but he seems very straightforwardly, you know, just a classic, the way he was able to charm people, the way he could step into these roles.
Lex Fridman (3:01:36.240)
You know, I think he was teaching at Dalton and then just kind of the way he would get himself into the the academic crowd within Harvard and I think also MIT, right?
Sarma Melngailis (3:01:47.240)
Sort of. So he's playing a role, but he's doing it so well that he fools all these people.
Lex Fridman (3:01:53.240)
And and the things that people would in hindsight say about him are just the same things that people say about it's like you hear the same things over and over again.
Sarma Melngailis (3:02:04.240)
You hear the same thing said about those people who were taken in by Elizabeth Holmes is that they were like it was as if he was under a spell.
Sarma Melngailis (3:02:12.240)
It was as if I was under a spell is something you hear a lot.
Lex Fridman (3:02:16.240)
So it's like they have this powerful charm that's almost over.
Sarma Melngailis (3:02:21.240)
It's overwhelming in that they overwhelm your better judgment or they overwhelm your like normal, otherwise normally functioning capacity for rational thought.
Lex Fridman (3:02:34.240)
And they sort of overwhelm that with their charm.
Sarma Melngailis (3:02:36.240)
So, you know, when you look at I think it was like James Mattis invested a bunch of money with Elizabeth Holmes and all these people were involved with her and nobody really did their due diligence where they just sort of trusted her.
Lex Fridman (3:02:49.240)
And Jeffrey Epstein, I think it's still unclear where he got all of his money, but the guy Wexner, Les Wexner, who had, you know, an enormous amount of money and somehow very quickly turned over management of it to Jeffrey Epstein.
Lex Fridman (3:03:06.240)
And so people wonder, like, why would he do that? That's insane.
Lex Fridman (3:03:09.240)
And then other people have commented about that relationship like it was as if he was under Jeffrey's spell. You know, observers would say I couldn't understand it. It was as if he was under his spell.
Lex Fridman (3:03:20.240)
And so somebody observing me and Mr. Fox could have possibly said the same thing about me.
Lex Fridman (3:03:26.240)
But it's a bit different because it wasn't all charm.
Sarma Melngailis (3:03:28.240)
I think Epstein used his charm and then was probably very, very, very crafty and getting another thing that people like him do and cults do also is to get is to get you somehow compromised because then they've got you.
Lex Fridman (3:03:44.240)
So I think some kind of usually sex related.
Sarma Melngailis (3:03:49.240)
Yeah. And with Epstein, certainly, you know, he was known to have cameras everywhere. And so if he got any of these people on camera doing something compromising and all very powerful people, then he's got them.
Lex Fridman (3:04:02.240)
And I think he was also very smart to do that, to target people of both parties so that politically that he was able to maintain his power like no matter like nobody wanted him to be totally exposed because then people, a lot of people would be exposed.
Lex Fridman (3:04:22.240)
By the way, that part, you know, that's all kind of conspiracy, right?
Lex Fridman (3:04:29.240)
Right. We don't know that.
Sarma Melngailis (3:04:31.240)
I, so a lot of people believe that and, you know, I tend to kind of naturally believe that because it makes sense, but it's also possible that straight up with charisma.
Lex Fridman (3:04:42.240)
I mean, he did record people and there were recordings.
Lex Fridman (3:04:45.240)
So I listened to an interview with a woman who, I mean, was a girl back then.
Sarma Melngailis (3:04:51.240)
Maybe she was 15 or 16 back then. And subsequently, years later, was able to see some of the video of, I mean, I think it's a verifiable thing that there were video cameras all over his house.
Sarma Melngailis (3:05:06.240)
Yeah, the degree to which it was used.
Lex Fridman (3:05:09.240)
Right. We don't know that.
Lex Fridman (3:05:11.240)
And to the degree of how many people were involved and so on, there's all kinds of conspiracies around the man. But the question about her, Ghislaine.
Lex Fridman (3:05:23.240)
So I only know what I know from the inputs, which are the Vicky Ward. It's one of the podcasts. It's a narrative podcast. So it's like an audio kind of a documentary or journalistic piece that she did and put out.
Sarma Melngailis (3:05:41.240)
I thought it was really, really well done. I think it's called Chasing Ghislaine.
Lex Fridman (3:05:46.240)
And I listened to that whole thing. I didn't intend to listen to it all in one stretch.
Sarma Melngailis (3:05:51.240)
That's how you know it's good.
Sarma Melngailis (3:05:52.240)
I mean, it was like a weekend and I basically was, you know, cleaning and doing other things and walking Leon and listening to it. And I got through it pretty quickly.
Lex Fridman (3:06:00.240)
But I got really fascinated by it because I don't I don't know. But I think I feel like I find the whole situation gut wrenching because I think Jeffrey Epstein is a straight up like straight up sociopath, like no question with her.
Sarma Melngailis (3:06:24.240)
Everybody's calling her evil. And for her to have enabled and done a lot of the things that she did could potentially require.
Sarma Melngailis (3:06:38.240)
One might say that it could require a lack of empathy to be able to do those things knowingly.
Lex Fridman (3:06:46.240)
But at the same time, I think the information that was conveyed in the Vicki Ward piece was fascinating to me because it's clear that at the very least, it's like it's like all of these things could be true.
Sarma Melngailis (3:07:01.240)
She could maybe be not enough of a good person to have, you know, horribly victimized these young girls and destroy their lives.
Lex Fridman (3:07:10.240)
But she could have, I feel like I'm gonna get bashed for saying this, but she could have in some way of not quite known what she was doing or been a bit out of her mind.
Sarma Melngailis (3:07:22.240)
Like manipulating.
Sarma Melngailis (3:07:23.240)
Maybe not. I'm just saying people, I would hope that people would be open to that to exploring that as a possibility.
Sarma Melngailis (3:07:31.240)
Well, her family and friends are making that case. They're painting a broad picture of who she is as a human being and showing that she couldn't have done any of those things without being like systematically manipulated.
Sarma Melngailis (3:07:51.240)
That's right. What I listened to in that podcast about her relationship with her father, how her father died, her things about her childhood, and then Epstein coming into her life and basically kind of pushing all those buttons and becoming like the father figure.
Lex Fridman (3:08:12.240)
And so she would be in a position of kind of always wanting his approval. And just the way that things that are described about the way that she like was so subservient to him in this kind of astonishing way that seems really weird and abnormal.
Lex Fridman (3:08:36.240)
And yet I think she had a lot of money and connections and I think she lost the money but had all the connections. Either way, there was a ton that Epstein gained via his relationship with her, like a ton.
Lex Fridman (3:08:51.240)
So it makes sense that he would have manipulated her. He manipulates everybody. So without question, I think one could argue he definitely manipulated her.
Lex Fridman (3:09:02.240)
And again, I want to be careful not to be saying that's an excuse for what she did. I just think that it's important to explore these things and be open to them as opposed to just like broad brush painting her as a horrible person.
Sarma Melngailis (3:09:21.240)
Because people could say that based on things they've read or things that I did that like I'm a horrible person. And it's very different because what she did involved young girls whose lives were destroyed.
Lex Fridman (3:09:38.240)
But I think that people could be a bit open to understanding how somebody could be manipulated. There's a psychologist that I'm friends with that I got to know after I watched him on Leah Remini's show.
Lex Fridman (3:09:58.240)
So Leah Remini is the actress who was in Scientology, got out and has really been speaking out about it and trying to expose what they're all about and how diabolical that organization is.
Lex Fridman (3:10:10.240)
And a lot of people are exposing them and doing this type of work. And so she had this guy on her show who was in The Moonies and his name is Steve Haasen. And so he was in a cult and then he got out again by extreme circumstances.
Sarma Melngailis (3:10:29.240)
He got in a car accident and almost died. And that's what ended up getting him out of the cult that he was in. But really smart guy, was targeted when he was young, got pulled into The Moonies.
Lex Fridman (3:10:41.240)
But watching this interview of him on her show, he's talking about his experience and he said, if they had told me to kill somebody, I would have. And in that moment made me cry. But I also felt like I understand that.
Lex Fridman (3:10:59.240)
And not that if Mr. Fox had told me to kill somebody, I don't think I would have. But again, I understand how it could get to that point. So that makes me feel like with her, like I would be curious what Steve Haasen would think, kind of analyzing the entire situation.
Sarma Melngailis (3:11:17.240)
Because it's hard to understand that unless you've been in it. And I understand with him how he could have said that. If they had told me to kill somebody, I would have. That's pretty intense. I mean, that's pretty extreme.
Lex Fridman (3:11:29.240)
And it's interesting how you can get into it, how far you can go just one day at a time, like gradually. Just like the frog in the boiling water. So fascinating.
Sarma Melngailis (3:11:42.240)
I mean, all of these cases are fascinating, like Patty Hearst, that whole story.
Sarma Melngailis (3:11:46.240)
Well, I'm just also, I just, it's already a while ago, reread The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. I've been reading a lot about Hitler and Goebbels for a long time working on a series about Hitler and the Third Reich.
Sarma Melngailis (3:12:05.240)
Because for me, it's like returning. So much of my family was destroyed or impacted by this time in history. That is somehow a way to find out more about myself is going back to that time.
Lex Fridman (3:12:24.240)
Have you ever thought about inherited trauma?
Lex Fridman (3:12:28.240)
This sounds not to mock people, but this sounds like a thing that...
Lex Fridman (3:12:39.240)
Like a woke thing?
Lex Fridman (3:12:41.240)
Like a woke thing, yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (3:12:43.240)
I don't mean it that way at all, but I get it because sometimes now when I say, now I almost have to put air quotes when I say something's triggering because I feel like I'm using a word that's now like overused or used in less serious. So now when I say something's triggering, it's like, I use air quotes.
Lex Fridman (3:13:02.240)
Yeah, it's funny because good words get taken up and then they get destroyed.
Sarma Melngailis (3:13:06.240)
Or overusing gaslighting. And I worry that that would happen with sociopathy. I think people need to understand sociopathy. I think it's critical for humanity that people understand it.
Lex Fridman (3:13:17.240)
Yeah, so just because you're being an asshole doesn't mean you're a sociopath.
Sarma Melngailis (3:13:20.240)
Doesn't mean you're a sociopath, exactly. And I feel like it's going to be this thing where now everybody's going to start calling everybody else a sociopath and it's like, ugh. And right now everybody calls everything gaslighting. If somebody's lying, it's not gaslighting.
Lex Fridman (3:13:31.240)
We started talking about, I already forgot, fluff? Is it fluff? It's fluff, right?
Sarma Melngailis (3:13:36.240)
Fluff, yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (3:13:37.240)
Okay, so that was great. That's a new discovery for me. Let's talk about food a little bit, if we can.
Sarma Melngailis (3:13:46.240)
You know what, let's talk about restaurants first. That's the fascinating part of the story before anything else, which is opening an exceptionally successful restaurant in NYC, New York City.
Lex Fridman (3:14:00.240)
What does that take? What does it take to open up from the very beginning, from the idea stage to the launching it, both the finances and the skill of actually getting people super excited by it, and then running it, all that chaos.
Sarma Melngailis (3:14:16.240)
I mean, to me, am I over romanticizing, but it seems like New York City is a really tough place to launch a restaurant in.
Sarma Melngailis (3:14:24.240)
Well, I think because it's extremely competitive and the standards are so high. So I think that's why there are so many good restaurants in New York, because if they're not good, they're not going to survive.
Lex Fridman (3:14:38.240)
So even like you could walk into what looks like a hole in the wall and it's going to have amazing food. That happens a lot.
Lex Fridman (3:14:47.240)
So what was the menu? Was it vegan and raw from the beginning?
Sarma Melngailis (3:14:52.240)
Yeah, it was.
Lex Fridman (3:14:54.240)
And raw means what?
Sarma Melngailis (3:14:55.240)
Now I'm getting thrown back to all the interviews I did when people asked me these questions. It was so long ago.
Lex Fridman (3:15:00.240)
What's it like being vegan?
Sarma Melngailis (3:15:03.240)
Nothing was cooked over roughly 118 degrees. There were people who are hardcore raw foodists, and there's also people who are hardcore vegans, and I was never any of those things. So I think what we did –
Lex Fridman (3:15:23.240)
You weren't the hardcore part?
Sarma Melngailis (3:15:24.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:15:25.240)
No, you weren't. But what parts of your life where you're a vegan? Are you still a vegan? Do you eat meat? Are you a vegetarian? Are you raw?
Sarma Melngailis (3:15:37.240)
Good question. I don't apply labels. So none of those labels would apply because it's –
Sarma Melngailis (3:15:43.240)
Male and female. I'm beyond those labels myself as well. But I'm a carnivore most of the time. There you go. It's the opposite of vegan, unfortunately. But no judgment. I think that's a beautiful thing to be is vegan.
Sarma Melngailis (3:16:01.240)
Likewise. I think that it's people who are very adamantly one way or the other. I think that after all my years in this world and in this world in general and also consuming an enormous amount of inputs and podcasts about health, like I love listening to different points of view.
Lex Fridman (3:16:23.240)
So I love when somebody's arguing vegan and then somebody's arguing carnivore. Or even with other issues, I like listening to what other people – opposing sides, assuming they're both intelligent, interesting sources.
Lex Fridman (3:16:36.240)
Especially when they're – I love it when they're sort of really testing that diet, meaning they're athletes or in some way really testing it. Not just vaguely saying what's healthy or not for you, but really what is life like under this particular diet?
Sarma Melngailis (3:16:53.240)
Yeah. And I think that probably everybody's different. And so in the same way that some people tolerate – like some people can't tolerate nightshades or some people can't tolerate certain spices or some people can't tolerate gluten or some people thrive off of this or that.
Lex Fridman (3:17:10.240)
And I've heard it said and discussed that there's a great deal to sort of what your body's used to, what your ancestors ate, where – because it seems like the human body is pretty adaptable.
Lex Fridman (3:17:24.240)
So you can adapt to eating a certain type of a food so that if your family comes from a certain part of the world where certain things aren't grown or more meat is eaten or – because there's people who are vegan their entire lives and they're incredibly healthy and they thrive.
Lex Fridman (3:17:44.240)
And there's athletes and there's people like Rich Roll who I like who's vegan and an athlete, but it might be something where that's working really well for him, but it wouldn't work well for somebody else.
Lex Fridman (3:17:56.240)
And I think there's also an element of people who try these things and then feel really good or feel really bad and they make a conclusion based on that initial period of time when it might be something where it makes you feel really good temporarily,
Lex Fridman (3:18:11.240)
but then over time you're gonna be depleted of certain things. And then we also live in a world where like our soil is depleted and there's a lot of processing that takes out of foods, a lot of things that we need.
Lex Fridman (3:18:23.240)
So I just think that there's no kind of one right answer. You can look at it from just a health perspective and then you can also look at it from like a morality and ethics perspective and then also like what's the impact on the environment and all those things are important.
Lex Fridman (3:18:39.240)
And I think that I've watched a lot of films and things and for a while right after that I might think, oh my God, I can't believe I ate this thing last week and now I'm gonna go back to being 100% vegan because I just watched this thing and it's fresh in my mind and now I'm thinking about it in a certain way.
Lex Fridman (3:18:56.240)
But then over time that sort of fades and then you start to get a bit more loose. And for me, I will end up eating a lot of things that aren't vegan usually in the context where I'm not adding to the consumption of it.
Lex Fridman (3:19:17.240)
So like at Rikers, most of the meat there was kind of weird and fake but there was like a chicken every Thursday and Sunday there was actual chicken, like the leg.
Lex Fridman (3:19:32.240)
Was that the most exciting thing for people?
Sarma Melngailis (3:19:34.240)
Oh yeah, oh and then the most fights broke out on chicken day because there was like heightened.
Lex Fridman (3:19:38.240)
Thursday and Sunday you said?
Sarma Melngailis (3:19:39.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:19:40.240)
Chicken day.
Lex Fridman (3:19:41.240)
So that was the most real meat you're getting is the chicken.
Lex Fridman (3:19:45.240)
Yeah, a lot of the rest of it.
Lex Fridman (3:19:47.240)
Chicken breast or white or dark meat?
Sarma Melngailis (3:19:50.240)
Dark is the leg and the thigh. And it was cooked surprisingly well. And so I would always eat it. I mean, it's there and it's not, from a health perspective, one could say, well, that's probably the shittiest of the shitty chickens that are full of antibiotics and hormones and terrible things.
Lex Fridman (3:20:10.240)
So it's not optimal from that point of view. But it's like if it's otherwise going to be thrown in the trash, then.
Lex Fridman (3:20:19.240)
Yeah, you're not adding to it.
Sarma Melngailis (3:20:20.240)
Right. Or, you know, like I've been drunk at a party and eaten a bunch of stuff that one would think I would never eat.
Lex Fridman (3:20:27.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:20:28.240)
But it's not like I ran to the store and bought it or went to a restaurant and ordered it.
Sarma Melngailis (3:20:31.240)
No, I'm the same. Liquor makes me eat things I shouldn't be eating. Or maybe should. As you wrote me in the email, life is complicated and fascinating and so is our decisions when we're drunk.
Sarma Melngailis (3:20:47.240)
I actually am a big fan of 7 Eleven. I go there sometimes late at night to think about life, and I'll eat whatever the stuff they have.
Sarma Melngailis (3:20:58.240)
I also think it's fascinating how our bodies intuitively know if you're quiet enough and you think about what you're craving.
Sarma Melngailis (3:21:06.240)
As long as it's not like if you're craving some processed junky food, that's probably something that's not quite functional.
Sarma Melngailis (3:21:14.240)
Sometimes I'll be like, I must have avocado, or I'll want to eat an entire parsley salad. And then it's happened. I went through a phase where, and here I'm like, do I say this out loud? I went through a phase of—
Lex Fridman (3:21:29.240)
Are you going to say it?
Sarma Melngailis (3:21:30.240)
I know, now I have to say it—where I couldn't get enough, I don't know where it started, like whose house I was at or whatever, but grass fed butter. I could tell that my body wanted whatever was there.
Sarma Melngailis (3:21:47.240)
I suppose I could have investigated it and thought, well, what's in there? Is it vitamin K, vitamin D? What is it in the grass fed butter? Because it wasn't regular butter. Ew, no. But this grass fed butter, I felt like I just wanted, I needed it.
Lex Fridman (3:22:01.240)
So there's probably something in there, and maybe I could have gone and just taken a lot of vitamin K and then not eaten the butter.
Sarma Melngailis (3:22:08.240)
There is something in there that's fascinating. I had that last night, actually, with, I went to a grocery store and I had a craving for tomatoes. I was like, what the hell is this? Like, what? It was weird.
Sarma Melngailis (3:22:22.240)
You should listen to that and then just get a bunch of tomatoes, because there's probably something in there.
Sarma Melngailis (3:22:26.240)
It was like, it felt right.
Sarma Melngailis (3:22:29.240)
When I was little, my mother—no, but that's exactly what I was saying, is that somehow your body knows without you knowing.
Lex Fridman (3:22:35.240)
And today, I have zero interest in tomatoes.
Lex Fridman (3:22:38.240)
Yeah. Did you eat the tomatoes, though?
Sarma Melngailis (3:22:40.240)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:22:41.240)
Okay, well then you probably—
Lex Fridman (3:22:42.240)
I ate way too many, but that's all right. Or maybe not enough. There you go. So yeah, what you were saying?
Sarma Melngailis (3:22:49.240)
Anyway, I think these things shift and change, and there's not a right answer. And then there's something where it's like one person might do well on something, another person doesn't. Or you might do well on something for—maybe if I ate a bunch of liver, I'd feel better because I'm getting vitamins that I'm lacking.
Lex Fridman (3:23:10.240)
But then once I get them, I'm fine, and I don't need that anymore. And I could potentially get those from other sources. But yeah, when I was little, I used to crave—my mother said I craved—not craved, but she said I would always eat sardines, but I wouldn't eat the pieces.
Lex Fridman (3:23:28.240)
I would only eat the whole ones, which have the bones in them.
Lex Fridman (3:23:31.240)
And I used to chew on chicken bones and try to eat eggshells when I was little. So I think all of those things have calcium and other minerals in common, so there's probably something there that I needed. Because you'd think as a little kid, I wouldn't be drawn to oily fish and bones and eggshells.
Sarma Melngailis (3:23:51.240)
Yeah, it's interesting because you're saying the explanation for the craving is probably the nutrients you're getting. But when you're imagining the craving, you're not obviously imagining the nutrients, you're imagining the texture, the taste, the feel, a lot of the things that we actually experience as we're eating. That's our brain probably tricking us.
Lex Fridman (3:24:11.240)
Right, but do you love tomatoes?
Lex Fridman (3:24:14.240)
Well, I think we determine that love is impossible to define.
Lex Fridman (3:24:20.240)
Are you extremely fond of—do you think tomatoes are one of the most delicious foods?
Lex Fridman (3:24:25.240)
No, no, but maybe—
Lex Fridman (3:24:26.240)
But yet you crave them.
Sarma Melngailis (3:24:27.240)
Maybe it's generational because it's a big Russian thing with potatoes and tomatoes because it's good with vodka salted.
Sarma Melngailis (3:24:36.240)
We were talking about the menu in the early days of the restaurant in New York. So what was on the menu? What kind of foods were you playing with? Do you remember—was that one of the challenging things is putting together—because you're crafting a new thing in New York where it's extremely competitive.
Sarma Melngailis (3:24:58.240)
Right. Well, over time, it got easier and easier. And then also I wasn't coming up with new dishes. It was the people that worked there. So I feel like if I could take credit for something, it would be recognizing talent. And when dishes were developed, this is when I was on my own.
Lex Fridman (3:25:17.240)
So it was opened with Matthew and Jeffrey. And then within a year, Matthew was out and Jeffrey was still involved as like the corporate sort of side of it.
Lex Fridman (3:25:29.240)
But then over time, I separated from that infrastructure as well and then was completely on my own.
Lex Fridman (3:25:37.240)
And in part, I did that because I was growing One Lucky Duck on the side and that was growing and growing and growing. And I knew there was something there. And yet the two businesses were completely intertwined.
Lex Fridman (3:25:48.240)
And so potential investors would come at me and they would see this very messy situation where I owned One Lucky Duck and Jeffrey Chatterot owned the restaurant. And how do we move forward from there?
Lex Fridman (3:26:00.240)
And then people would say I should shut down the restaurant and just focus on One Lucky Duck. And I wanted them all to be together under one umbrella and to move forward where everybody's incentives were aligned.
Lex Fridman (3:26:11.240)
What was the magic? Why was it so successful so quickly, would you say?
Sarma Melngailis (3:26:15.240)
I want to half jokingly, but not joking, but sort of say that it was about the love and the food and the space.
Lex Fridman (3:26:23.240)
Can you define love?
Lex Fridman (3:26:26.240)
But there was something special. So when people ask me about opening a restaurant, I say I don't want to get back into the restaurant business unless it's the same restaurant in the same space.
Sarma Melngailis (3:26:36.240)
Because there was something about that space that felt, I guess, felt magical, for lack of a better word, and the energy of a lot of the people there.
Lex Fridman (3:26:49.240)
And I think that people really cared about it. And so for whatever reason, there was an energy about the place.
Lex Fridman (3:26:58.240)
Would you ever do it again?
Sarma Melngailis (3:27:00.240)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (3:27:01.240)
Would you ever consider reopening?
Sarma Melngailis (3:27:02.240)
In the same space.
Lex Fridman (3:27:03.240)
Wow. That's a tough thing in New York, but you're thinking, okay, well.
Sarma Melngailis (3:27:10.240)
It's there.
Lex Fridman (3:27:11.240)
It's there?
Sarma Melngailis (3:27:12.240)
Let me ask you this question, because I've been searching for that myself, asking myself this question, the last meal question.
Lex Fridman (3:27:20.240)
What's the best meal you've ever eaten in your life?
Lex Fridman (3:27:25.240)
If I had to murder you at the end of this and you get one meal, but you can travel anywhere in the world, what would you eat?
Lex Fridman (3:27:35.240)
It's one of those questions where I feel like I should have an answer prepared.
Sarma Melngailis (3:27:40.240)
It's too difficult to sort of pick favorites, but if somebody would force you to choose, you'd have to.
Sarma Melngailis (3:27:49.240)
I was eating something once and I had the thought that if I was going to die, I would come here and order plate after plate of this and eat this.
Lex Fridman (3:27:58.240)
Do you remember what it was?
Lex Fridman (3:27:59.240)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (3:28:00.240)
Some diner in the middle of nowhere?
Sarma Melngailis (3:28:01.240)
No, it was Pure Food and Wine was on Irving Place and then the kitchen connected to the One Lucky Duck juice bar, which had an entrance on 17th Street.
Lex Fridman (3:28:12.240)
So it was kind of like this L shape.
Lex Fridman (3:28:13.240)
And then there was a huge garden in the back.
Sarma Melngailis (3:28:15.240)
On the corner was Casamono and Bar Jamon, which was Mario Batali and Joe Bastianich were behind that.
Lex Fridman (3:28:24.240)
And it was very focused on meat, but also like organ meats and strange, unusual meats.
Sarma Melngailis (3:28:30.240)
Spanish restaurant.
Lex Fridman (3:28:31.240)
Wow, lots of good reviews.
Sarma Melngailis (3:28:32.240)
Yeah, it was really good.
Sarma Melngailis (3:28:34.240)
This is just a funny that we surrounded it, but Bar Jamon was this tiny little bar.
Lex Fridman (3:28:41.240)
And I went in there once with Tobin late and I don't know why we ended up going there, but it was right before they closed and drank red wine and they had tomato bread.
Lex Fridman (3:28:54.240)
And it's just like a baguette, although it's a Spanish or whatever.
Sarma Melngailis (3:29:00.240)
It's like a bread, like a baguette, like a thin that they toast.
Lex Fridman (3:29:03.240)
And I think they rub it with garlic and they don't even put tomato slices on it.
Sarma Melngailis (3:29:07.240)
It's like they rub it and the tomato juice is all over it.
Sarma Melngailis (3:29:11.240)
It was just bread and tomato juice and probably some garlic flavor and really good salt and some wine and red wine.
Lex Fridman (3:29:20.240)
And we sat there and ordered a plate, ate it, ordered another one, ate it, ordered another one.
Lex Fridman (3:29:25.240)
I think we had like six plates.
Lex Fridman (3:29:27.240)
And I remember sitting there thinking I could just eat this until my stomach bursts.
Lex Fridman (3:29:32.240)
And then, and so if this is like, if somebody was like, what's the last, I would just want to sit there and eat plate after plate.
Sarma Melngailis (3:29:39.240)
I think if you went back there and ate the same thing, it wouldn't taste nearly as good.
Lex Fridman (3:29:42.240)
And like, was there something magical about that night, about the way that bread was made on that night, the way you felt at that night, the wine, the something?
Lex Fridman (3:29:56.240)
Or do you think like, where's the power from that food come from?
Lex Fridman (3:30:00.240)
Is it the food itself or is it the environment?
Sarma Melngailis (3:30:04.240)
I'm sure it's both, but like if somebody brought a plate of it here right now, it would be completely delicious.
Lex Fridman (3:30:11.240)
But it might not feel as kind of, not that it felt magical, but it was the whole warmth of the experience and the red wine.
Sarma Melngailis (3:30:22.240)
It's the afternoon in Texas right now, so it's different.
Lex Fridman (3:30:25.240)
I keep forgetting and thinking it's late at night.
Sarma Melngailis (3:30:28.240)
Yeah, we're surrounded by, this whole place is anti Huberman.
Lex Fridman (3:30:33.240)
There's no light.
Sarma Melngailis (3:30:35.240)
Well, it's pro Huberman if it's in the afternoon or the evening, except for these bright lights.
Sarma Melngailis (3:30:41.240)
If they were lower down, if they were like down below, then they're hitting the tops of our eyes.
Lex Fridman (3:30:47.240)
But it's the light coming from above that's destructive at night because it's hitting the bottom of your eyes.
Lex Fridman (3:30:52.240)
So it's like mimicking the sun, which is signaling your body that it's time to be awake.
Lex Fridman (3:30:57.240)
So as much as possible.
Lex Fridman (3:30:59.240)
So I do this in the evenings.
Sarma Melngailis (3:31:00.240)
I shut off all the overhead lights.
Sarma Melngailis (3:31:02.240)
I try to dim the lights as much as I can, and I turn on like a lamp versus an overhead light.
Lex Fridman (3:31:08.240)
Are you also doing the caffeine thing, like not consuming much caffeine way before bed?
Lex Fridman (3:31:14.240)
Oh, I can't.
Sarma Melngailis (3:31:15.240)
Yeah, I usually don't have caffeine late.
Lex Fridman (3:31:20.240)
I try not to have it.
Sarma Melngailis (3:31:21.240)
I drink into the night.
Lex Fridman (3:31:24.240)
2 p.m. would be my last.
Sarma Melngailis (3:31:26.240)
Ideally, I wouldn't drink coffee after two, but plenty of times I do.
Sarma Melngailis (3:31:30.240)
Especially if I haven't had midday coffee, then I worry I'm going to get a headache.
Sarma Melngailis (3:31:34.240)
That makes you way more responsible than me.
Lex Fridman (3:31:36.240)
Let me return to love.
Lex Fridman (3:31:40.240)
What do you think makes for a good romantic relationship, given your experience?
Lex Fridman (3:31:52.240)
I mean this question.
Sarma Melngailis (3:31:53.240)
I think a mutual respect is a big part of it.
Lex Fridman (3:31:56.240)
Mutual respect.
Sarma Melngailis (3:31:58.240)
That's interesting.
Sarma Melngailis (3:31:59.240)
Well, and understanding it in a way that you want what's best for the other person, not in a way that you would sacrifice yourself for them necessarily, but in a very healthy way.
Lex Fridman (3:32:13.240)
So I think a healthy relationship is where you want what's best for the other person.
Lex Fridman (3:32:17.240)
So I always find it tragic.
Lex Fridman (3:32:20.240)
Like say you started dating somebody who then would get jealous or upset if you spent too much time working on something, right?
Lex Fridman (3:32:31.240)
But that's like your life.
Lex Fridman (3:32:33.240)
So if you're working on some robotics thing and you're having some breakthrough and so you just want to spend a lot of time wherever you spend a lot of time doing those things, and then that other person got all bent out of shape and it became like a competition.
Sarma Melngailis (3:32:47.240)
That to me seems very unhealthy because if somebody, if it was like a genuine healthy love, she would want you to be doing those things.
Sarma Melngailis (3:33:02.240)
Yeah, that's a good observation.
Sarma Melngailis (3:33:04.240)
To me, I think the way to achieve that is actually, or the easiest way to achieve that, at least for me, is actually legitimately be excited by the things the other person is excited by.
Lex Fridman (3:33:20.240)
So like not in some generic sense, it's good for them to be doing the robotics thing.
Sarma Melngailis (3:33:26.240)
It's more like you become a fan of all the cool things that they're doing in their life.
Sarma Melngailis (3:33:34.240)
Somebody told me recently, there's a term for this, but I love watching other people succeed, be excited about shit.
Lex Fridman (3:33:48.240)
I like celebrating other people.
Sarma Melngailis (3:33:50.240)
It's fun for me to watch people do the thing they love doing.
Lex Fridman (3:33:53.240)
So in some sense, that's reinvigorating to me and exciting to me.
Lex Fridman (3:33:59.240)
And so one of the things for me in a relationship is you get excited by watching another person do the thing they're excited about.
Lex Fridman (3:34:07.240)
It's not like I intellectually know it's good for them to have their own thing.
Sarma Melngailis (3:34:11.240)
It's like I legit get excited by their own thing.
Lex Fridman (3:34:16.240)
Right, but that's what I mean.
Sarma Melngailis (3:34:18.240)
It's like that person would be excited because you're excited.
Lex Fridman (3:34:23.240)
But I think the easiest way to achieve that is actually be like, what am I trying to say?
Sarma Melngailis (3:34:28.240)
It's not like saying that you should be excited.
Lex Fridman (3:34:32.240)
It's like you can't help yourself but be excited.
Sarma Melngailis (3:34:35.240)
Right, but I think that's possible.
Sarma Melngailis (3:34:37.240)
It's possible for that to be the case for somebody that might have an appreciation for what you're doing, but that's not what that person is going to go spend their time on themselves.
Sarma Melngailis (3:34:53.240)
Yeah, they were by themselves.
Sarma Melngailis (3:34:54.240)
Right, so the other person might be really good at a musical instrument that requires a lot of practice, and you're not interested in playing that musical instrument.
Lex Fridman (3:35:02.240)
But you appreciate the beauty of the music and understand that that person is getting something out of it.
Lex Fridman (3:35:07.240)
So you would be excited when they get a chance to practice or whatnot.
Lex Fridman (3:35:11.240)
Do you think love should be simple or complicated in a relationship?
Lex Fridman (3:35:18.240)
Well, it might be inherently complicated.
Sarma Melngailis (3:35:21.240)
I may have asked Huberman the exact same question.
Lex Fridman (3:35:25.240)
I forget what he said.
Sarma Melngailis (3:35:27.240)
I thought it was interesting when you asked Elon about love.
Lex Fridman (3:35:30.240)
Oh, boy, yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (3:35:32.240)
That's going to be conversation number like seven that he actually answers it.
Sarma Melngailis (3:35:39.240)
Well, what was interesting that I found admirable was this sort of like a duty to humanity.
Sarma Melngailis (3:35:46.240)
I think you asked about it not in a person but about the work.
Lex Fridman (3:35:52.240)
And so it was like to put all this energy to try to kind of like move things forward, knowing that he will probably die before it gets there.
Sarma Melngailis (3:36:04.240)
You're talking about like something related to the science of rocketry.
Lex Fridman (3:36:10.240)
Yeah, he's kind of a rocket scientist.
Lex Fridman (3:36:13.240)
But whatever you were asking him about whether something could be accomplished, and he said yes, but not in his lifetime.
Lex Fridman (3:36:19.240)
But he's going to keep pushing it forward anyway.
Lex Fridman (3:36:21.240)
So I felt like that was a really, you know, to put so much of yourself into something just to kind of move the baton forward for humanity was a struck me as an admirable thing.
Sarma Melngailis (3:36:35.240)
You know, there's no great reward in terms of you're going to, you know, you're going to see that invention happen or you're going to see Mars colonized or whatever it is.
Lex Fridman (3:36:46.240)
But you're willing to put in all the work and brainpower to try to push it along.
Lex Fridman (3:36:52.240)
Like thinking about the biggest possible impact on the world.
Sarma Melngailis (3:36:55.240)
Just thinking about humanity.
Lex Fridman (3:36:57.240)
I think all of us, when we do cool things, are contributing to humanity.
Lex Fridman (3:37:01.240)
And it's good to think of it that way.
Sarma Melngailis (3:37:04.240)
When you run a restaurant and you make all the people happy, I don't know, that's part of that.
Sarma Melngailis (3:37:09.240)
It's good to think big like that.
Lex Fridman (3:37:12.240)
And Elon does definitely.
Sarma Melngailis (3:37:14.240)
When I asked him about love, you know, just knowing him personally now, I'm asking about the personal question about love.
Lex Fridman (3:37:24.240)
But I'm giving him the freedom to escape it, which he always does.
Sarma Melngailis (3:37:28.240)
That's very generous.
Lex Fridman (3:37:31.240)
Because I don't want to trap him.
Sarma Melngailis (3:37:33.240)
I understand it's a difficult.
Sarma Melngailis (3:37:35.240)
So, you know, he's better at solving engineering problems than talking about love.
Sarma Melngailis (3:37:39.240)
The other thing he's really good at is going to the joke.
Lex Fridman (3:37:44.240)
So for him, you know, for him, love and all those kinds of things, especially those kind of cliché sounding things, are the stuff of memes.
Sarma Melngailis (3:37:59.240)
It's the stuff, the easiest way you can talk about it is humor.
Sarma Melngailis (3:38:02.240)
The same with trauma, like personal trauma, the easiest stuff for him to talk about is laugh about it.
Sarma Melngailis (3:38:08.240)
He's been very tough privately or on podcasts to talk about personal, like difficult stuff.
Lex Fridman (3:38:18.240)
And for me, obviously, that's often the most interesting stuff as humans, like, where's your darkness?
Sarma Melngailis (3:38:24.240)
You know, but for him, it's tough.
Lex Fridman (3:38:28.240)
For a lot of people, it's tough.
Lex Fridman (3:38:29.240)
But it's important to go there.
Lex Fridman (3:38:31.240)
Maybe first in the privacy of your mind.
Lex Fridman (3:38:35.240)
And I think, you know, bringing it back to the relationship thing is wanting to.
Sarma Melngailis (3:38:41.240)
Like, understand and accept those things about somebody else, I mean, sort of cliche to say that you can't change somebody.
Lex Fridman (3:38:51.240)
And you don't want to also, like, try to change yourself for somebody, but you can sort of figure things out and be willing to make adjustments and navigate for the sake of something working.
Lex Fridman (3:39:05.240)
And sometimes that comes from understanding, which might require a lot of effort and open mindedness if somebody is kind of very different from you.
Sarma Melngailis (3:39:17.240)
Yeah, and being fragile yourself, revealing your flaws and getting to learn about theirs and getting to see the beauty in them.
Lex Fridman (3:39:26.240)
Because that's the good stuff.
Sarma Melngailis (3:39:29.240)
Or if the flaws are too much of a red flag, then you walk away.
Lex Fridman (3:39:33.240)
That's the hard stuff.
Sarma Melngailis (3:39:34.240)
Either the red flags might be the thing that you actually get to love deeply because they're a flawed human, or it might be the reason to walk away quickly.
Lex Fridman (3:39:44.240)
And you don't know.
Sarma Melngailis (3:39:46.240)
It's a gamble.
Sarma Melngailis (3:39:48.240)
If it's a red flag, then it, by definition, is something that's telling you to walk away.
Sarma Melngailis (3:39:52.240)
If it was just, like, something about their character that's challenging, you could appreciate that or understand it.
Lex Fridman (3:40:01.240)
But it's not something that, like, they're intentionally trying to use to deceive you.
Sarma Melngailis (3:40:06.240)
I think red flags, I guess it's more about, like, manipulation and or, like, somebody's kind of extreme dysfunction or something would be red flags.
Lex Fridman (3:40:16.240)
But I think there could be things that are quirky or weird or even dark about somebody that are acceptable.
Sarma Melngailis (3:40:26.240)
Yeah, but they might look like red flags.
Lex Fridman (3:40:28.240)
If there's someone crying on the subway, that's a red flag for me.
Sarma Melngailis (3:40:35.240)
That she might be, like, an emotional basket case, an eye maintenance crazy person.
Lex Fridman (3:40:39.240)
Yeah, that's true.
Sarma Melngailis (3:40:41.240)
But, you know, it could also be, there could be a deeper story to it.
Lex Fridman (3:40:44.240)
So that's what I'm trying to tell you.
Sarma Melngailis (3:40:47.240)
That's true.
Lex Fridman (3:40:48.240)
All right.
Lex Fridman (3:40:49.240)
What advice would you give to young folks today if they want to launch a restaurant in New York City and then message somebody on Twitter?
Sarma Melngailis (3:40:58.240)
I was, before you finished the sentence, I was about to say read a lot of books.
Lex Fridman (3:41:03.240)
But then you said, because you said what advice would you give to young people today?
Lex Fridman (3:41:07.240)
And I was like, read a lot of books.
Sarma Melngailis (3:41:09.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:41:10.240)
And then you got to the restaurant part.
Sarma Melngailis (3:41:12.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:41:13.240)
No, I mean, I was joking about the restaurants.
Sarma Melngailis (3:41:15.240)
Yeah, about life, I would say.
Sarma Melngailis (3:41:17.240)
Not just about career as a restaurateur, but just in life, how to be successful, how to be, how to live a life that can be fulfilling and how to live a life they can be proud of.
Lex Fridman (3:41:31.240)
So read a lot of books.
Lex Fridman (3:41:33.240)
It's complicated because –
Lex Fridman (3:41:34.240)
Have you figured it out yet?
Lex Fridman (3:41:35.240)
No.
Lex Fridman (3:41:36.240)
But I think self awareness is key, but I also think there's some of those things where, like, people kind of have to learn their own lessons.
Lex Fridman (3:41:46.240)
But I think in part because I never had kids and I never wanted kids, I feel like through my book, I keep thinking that I want a lot of the lessons that I learned to be useful to other people, particularly younger people, and in many cases, younger females, to maybe understand themselves a little better along the way.
Sarma Melngailis (3:42:12.240)
Because I think that a lot of mistakes that I made and things that happened or things that I did that I'm embarrassed about or things that I stepped into that I wouldn't have otherwise stepped into or allowed to happen were a result of, in many cases, like insecurity, like a lack of confidence.
Lex Fridman (3:42:35.240)
And I think in the context of moving forward with relationships, being really careful to understand why you're there or if you're repeating a pattern, that's something that is sort of cliche, but I feel like it's very – I mean, cliches are things that are true.
Sarma Melngailis (3:42:57.240)
They're just repeated a lot.
Lex Fridman (3:42:58.240)
But anyway, the idea that people repeat patterns, right?
Sarma Melngailis (3:43:03.240)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (3:43:04.240)
I think that's very true.
Sarma Melngailis (3:43:06.240)
Right.
Lex Fridman (3:43:07.240)
And so to be aware of that and to figure it out sooner rather than later so you don't keep stepping into the same thing over and over again.
Sarma Melngailis (3:43:16.240)
You mentioned sort of giving yourself time and space to think.
Lex Fridman (3:43:22.240)
Yeah, which sometimes isn't possible.
Sarma Melngailis (3:43:24.240)
Don't let momentum of life sort of carry you away.
Sarma Melngailis (3:43:27.240)
Right. And I think for me, one of the things that would have scared me about having kids is the chaos of it or not being able to handle it.
Lex Fridman (3:43:38.240)
But I think that's just me, not most people.
Lex Fridman (3:43:41.240)
You ran a restaurant.
Sarma Melngailis (3:43:43.240)
I know. But just probably why I would go home at night and lie on the floor and cry or –
Lex Fridman (3:43:49.240)
How often do you do that?
Lex Fridman (3:43:52.240)
Do you like a good cry?
Lex Fridman (3:43:55.240)
I do.
Lex Fridman (3:43:56.240)
Music usually or – can you paint a scene?
Lex Fridman (3:44:01.240)
Just in general?
Lex Fridman (3:44:03.240)
Yeah, is there candles?
Lex Fridman (3:44:04.240)
I cried this morning.
Sarma Melngailis (3:44:05.240)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (3:44:06.240)
Not intentionally, not for long.
Lex Fridman (3:44:07.240)
Happiness or just overwhelmed?
Lex Fridman (3:44:09.240)
It was like a – I looked a little bit at Instagram and saw – what was it?
Sarma Melngailis (3:44:18.240)
Very often they're like these little animal rescue stories or whatever, but this was this guy Matt who used to be my trainer years ago and put this little montage video to music.
Lex Fridman (3:44:30.240)
That was interesting.
Sarma Melngailis (3:44:31.240)
If there hadn't been music, I probably wouldn't have cried.
Lex Fridman (3:44:33.240)
But it was showing his wife having their second child, not showing it, but like the sort of before and then the baby in her arms right afterwards and then bringing the baby home.
Sarma Melngailis (3:44:45.240)
It was a very short little clip, but set to music.
Lex Fridman (3:44:48.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:44:49.240)
And I watched that and started to cry.
Lex Fridman (3:44:51.240)
But like I didn't sob or anything, so I think I cry easily.
Sarma Melngailis (3:44:59.240)
Interestingly though, in actual horrifically tragic things or when they apply to me, I might not cry and then people find that unusual.
Sarma Melngailis (3:45:10.240)
I remember in the film that – I don't know if it was my sister or my father described that when my parents got divorced, I didn't cry and I just – whereas my sister bawled her eyes out and I didn't cry at all ever and I just didn't say anything or want to talk about it.
Sarma Melngailis (3:45:28.240)
When I was sentenced to jail, I didn't cry.
Lex Fridman (3:45:33.240)
So a lot of times when something really big happens, I get a little bit weirdly – I don't know.
Lex Fridman (3:45:42.240)
But very often –
Lex Fridman (3:45:43.240)
It's too much to feel it all directly.
Lex Fridman (3:45:46.240)
So you kind of cry it out later slowly.
Lex Fridman (3:45:50.240)
Right.
Sarma Melngailis (3:45:51.240)
Maybe years later.
Lex Fridman (3:45:52.240)
Maybe years later.
Sarma Melngailis (3:45:53.240)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:45:54.240)
And maybe that's what I'm really crying about when I cry at these little videos or something.
Sarma Melngailis (3:45:57.240)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (3:45:58.240)
But I'm glad for it because I feel like it always feels like kind of a relief.
Sarma Melngailis (3:46:03.240)
Well, let me ask this because it's interesting what you would say.
Lex Fridman (3:46:08.240)
Do you have regrets about things in your life?
Lex Fridman (3:46:15.240)
Like what do you regret?
Lex Fridman (3:46:16.240)
If there's one day you could live again, which day would you pick?
Lex Fridman (3:46:23.240)
Like relive and make different choices?
Sarma Melngailis (3:46:27.240)
Well, like one obvious thing could be the day that I let Anthony Strangers in the door.
Sarma Melngailis (3:46:33.240)
If I had instead – if at any time early on I had instead just pushed him out, that my life would be wildly different.
Lex Fridman (3:46:43.240)
It's hard to –
Lex Fridman (3:46:45.240)
So that's the biggest mistake of your life, you would say, just letting Anthony into your life?
Lex Fridman (3:46:52.240)
I think – yes.
Sarma Melngailis (3:46:53.240)
I think one could argue that's the biggest mistake.
Lex Fridman (3:46:55.240)
But then at the same time you never know because like when I – I was in a sort of a dark relationship that then led to the restaurant.
Lex Fridman (3:47:07.240)
Am I having the One Lucky Duck brand?
Lex Fridman (3:47:09.240)
So I felt like that darkness – it's like if you married a horribly abusive person but you had a beautiful child and then you go on and you have this beautiful child and you think,
Sarma Melngailis (3:47:19.240)
well, if I hadn't been with that horribly abusive person, I wouldn't have this beautiful child.
Lex Fridman (3:47:23.240)
So I wouldn't go undo it.
Lex Fridman (3:47:24.240)
So I feel like a lot of things are like that.
Lex Fridman (3:47:26.240)
And I guess I could optimistically hope that there are good things down the road where I'll think,
Sarma Melngailis (3:47:33.240)
well, I'm here and I'm grateful for it and therefore I'm grateful for the things that got me here, which include a lot of dark things.
Sarma Melngailis (3:47:41.240)
It's hard to say because a lot of people were hurt in my case, but I am optimistic that I can make those things up.
Lex Fridman (3:47:48.240)
And there are also hurts that were – I mean in some cases emotionally but also very much financial.
Lex Fridman (3:47:56.240)
And I feel like those are numbers and the employees were all paid back.
Lex Fridman (3:48:02.240)
So anybody else that is out money because of everything that happened isn't somebody that's like not able to feed themselves.
Sarma Melngailis (3:48:12.240)
Everybody – most of those people have plenty of money and it's like not a big deal, but I still want to repay all of it.
Lex Fridman (3:48:18.240)
And it's numbers.
Lex Fridman (3:48:20.240)
It's not – like nobody died.
Lex Fridman (3:48:24.240)
And sometimes when I think about my own challenges, they feel sort of inconsequential in comparison to other things going on in the world.
Lex Fridman (3:48:35.240)
So yes, it's hard being humiliated or it's hard to have people say nasty things about you on Twitter, Instagram, but really who cares?
Sarma Melngailis (3:48:48.240)
Because that's just words and things.
Lex Fridman (3:48:50.240)
And I'm not like fleeing my home and watching people get shot.
Lex Fridman (3:48:56.240)
And there's still – out of this darkness or out of this you can still – you still have a lot of time to create something beautiful in the world.
Lex Fridman (3:49:06.240)
Maybe something even more beautiful than you've ever done before.
Sarma Melngailis (3:49:10.240)
I am optimistic.
Lex Fridman (3:49:12.240)
And I also feel like part of the reason I like having these conversations is because I feel like people will learn stuff from my shitty experiences to avoid going through their own shitty experience.
Lex Fridman (3:49:25.240)
And I've heard a ton of that from a lot of women and some men writing to me saying that they went through something similar and nobody understood.
Lex Fridman (3:49:35.240)
And my story helped them or might help them get somebody else out of a situation.
Lex Fridman (3:49:43.240)
So making it useful feels good.
Lex Fridman (3:49:46.240)
So through all of this, Leon was with you.
Sarma Melngailis (3:49:50.240)
He recently had a birthday, March I guess.
Lex Fridman (3:49:54.240)
Yes, 12.
Sarma Melngailis (3:49:56.240)
I made him a phenomenal meat cake or a layered cake that involved a variety of animal foods.
Lex Fridman (3:50:06.240)
He's not a vegetarian?
Sarma Melngailis (3:50:07.240)
No, he's not.
Lex Fridman (3:50:08.240)
But I also give him like really high quality stuff.
Lex Fridman (3:50:12.240)
But yeah, he's not a vegan or vegetarian.
Lex Fridman (3:50:14.240)
Let me ask you a hard question.
Lex Fridman (3:50:16.240)
Do you think about the tragic fact that dogs live much shorter lives than us humans?
Lex Fridman (3:50:22.240)
Do you think about his mortality?
Sarma Melngailis (3:50:26.240)
All the time.
Lex Fridman (3:50:27.240)
I kind of try not to, but all the time.
Sarma Melngailis (3:50:30.240)
Because you told me in traveling here to Austin, Texas, you're not in the habit of leaving Leon by himself.
Sarma Melngailis (3:50:41.240)
Well, he's not by himself, but I know I haven't been away from him in certainly since before COVID.
Lex Fridman (3:50:53.240)
So I'm not used to it.
Lex Fridman (3:50:55.240)
And so I people always say that dogs have like that dogs have attachment issues or get separation anxiety.
Lex Fridman (3:51:03.240)
But in my case, at least it's like I think he's fine.
Lex Fridman (3:51:07.240)
I'm the one that is, you know, he's like fine.
Sarma Melngailis (3:51:10.240)
I'm the one that gets anxious about it, being away from him.
Sarma Melngailis (3:51:15.240)
You're the one who acts like a dog when you say you come back and you're super excited to see him.
Sarma Melngailis (3:51:19.240)
Yeah, I can pee on the floor and wiggle your tail and drool and all that kind of stuff.
Lex Fridman (3:51:24.240)
But do you think about the fact, you know, that you might lose Leon soon?
Sarma Melngailis (3:51:30.240)
I do. I think about it all.
Lex Fridman (3:51:31.240)
I mean, I try not to think about it.
Lex Fridman (3:51:33.240)
Are you scared of it?
Lex Fridman (3:51:34.240)
Yeah, it's scary.
Lex Fridman (3:51:35.240)
But then I also just try to understand that it's inevitable.
Lex Fridman (3:51:40.240)
And I mean, yeah, assuming I'm still around, then that's I think one of the things about having adopting a dog or caring for an animal,
Sarma Melngailis (3:51:54.240)
unless it's one of those animals that lives a really long time.
Lex Fridman (3:51:58.240)
I just found out that parrots live an extraordinarily long time.
Lex Fridman (3:52:03.240)
But they're annoying.
Lex Fridman (3:52:05.240)
So you get, it's a trade off.
Sarma Melngailis (3:52:07.240)
The ones we love live a short time.
Lex Fridman (3:52:09.240)
The ones that annoy you live a long time.
Lex Fridman (3:52:12.240)
So I just think it's one of those things that you just know it's going to happen and it's just part of life.
Lex Fridman (3:52:18.240)
And I think it's one of those pains that's, it's painful, but you just kind of have to go through it.
Lex Fridman (3:52:26.240)
And what's the alternative?
Sarma Melngailis (3:52:28.240)
You're not going to, it's like saying you would never want to fall in love because of the heartbreak that's going to inevitably come.
Lex Fridman (3:52:34.240)
So some people do that.
Lex Fridman (3:52:36.240)
They just avoid ever.
Sarma Melngailis (3:52:38.240)
You're saying, screw it, I'm diving right in.
Lex Fridman (3:52:40.240)
Yes.
Sarma Melngailis (3:52:41.240)
It was all worth it.
Lex Fridman (3:52:42.240)
What about your own mortality?
Lex Fridman (3:52:43.240)
You think about yourself dying?
Lex Fridman (3:52:45.240)
Less so than I was before.
Sarma Melngailis (3:52:49.240)
I think I wrote about that and I put this letter, Dear Mr. Fox, online, which I never intended to do.
Lex Fridman (3:52:56.240)
But I did because of all the misconceptions about the film and our relationship.
Lex Fridman (3:53:00.240)
And so I put this thing up online that I'd written on my phone on multiple subway rides.
Lex Fridman (3:53:07.240)
And at the end of it, I talk about because especially then when it was the height of everything was gone and what do I have to live for?
Sarma Melngailis (3:53:15.240)
I sort of noticed and wrote about how differently I felt about things, whereas I used to be afraid.
Sarma Melngailis (3:53:22.240)
I used to have a healthy fear of being pushed in front of a train because that happens in New York or anywhere.
Sarma Melngailis (3:53:29.240)
Or I had a healthy fear of, I don't know, walking down a dark street at night.
Lex Fridman (3:53:36.240)
But I noticed that at the time I didn't really have those fears because I was like, what do I have to lose?
Lex Fridman (3:53:43.240)
Who cares?
Lex Fridman (3:53:45.240)
I don't have anything anymore.
Lex Fridman (3:53:46.240)
What do I have to lose?
Lex Fridman (3:53:47.240)
So I certainly feel much less that way.
Lex Fridman (3:53:52.240)
But something about those feelings lingered where I'm less afraid of it or more just less afraid of it, but hoping it's not some sort of a gruesome way.
Lex Fridman (3:54:05.240)
I mean, some people are really afraid of flying.
Lex Fridman (3:54:07.240)
And I feel like, well, statistically, it's extremely safe.
Lex Fridman (3:54:10.240)
And if it's going to happen, it's going to happen.
Sarma Melngailis (3:54:12.240)
There's nothing you can do.
Sarma Melngailis (3:54:14.240)
There's really nothing you can do unless you're going to do what that guy in that small plane did the other day and leap over and was able to take control of the plane.
Lex Fridman (3:54:23.240)
But I mean like a commercial flight.
Lex Fridman (3:54:25.240)
So it's like if you're going to die, you're going to die.
Lex Fridman (3:54:27.240)
And it's just your time.
Lex Fridman (3:54:28.240)
And all you can do is hope that I would probably prefer to have as little awareness about it as possible.
Sarma Melngailis (3:54:36.240)
You know, it's like you'd rather have somebody if you're going to get shot, you'd rather have somebody shoot you in the back of the head and you didn't see it coming and just boom, lights out versus somebody holding a gun to your head.
Lex Fridman (3:54:48.240)
And then you're going to feel all this fear and have to like feel all of that.
Sarma Melngailis (3:54:54.240)
Which also made me think of, you know, animals and animal suffering in the way that some people argue that because of the conditions and the fear that that's like that's like in their bodies when they're killed, which is an interesting thing to think about.
Sarma Melngailis (3:55:15.240)
Yeah, I clearly struggle with the ethics of I just I think about it a lot about like our current food system, which involves a system that everybody has sort of accepted and normalized where.
Sarma Melngailis (3:55:42.240)
Like say aliens did come down and looked at us and realized that we're a particularly good source of whatever fuel they need.
Lex Fridman (3:55:53.240)
So then they imprisoned us all in cages that were like the equivalent of like sardines and jammed in an elevator.
Lex Fridman (3:56:02.240)
And then we were bred and we would get sick and we'd go crazy and we'd do the equivalent of like pecking and then we'd get abused and then like grotesquely and brutally killed.
Lex Fridman (3:56:17.240)
And that was like our entire lives.
Lex Fridman (3:56:19.240)
And so if like aliens came down and started and did all of that, we would have to be OK with that, which is something that my was said to me after watching this movie called Our Daily Bread many years ago.
Lex Fridman (3:56:37.240)
But it's an interesting way to think about it, because I mean, we would have to be OK with it because that's kind of what we're doing now.
Sarma Melngailis (3:56:46.240)
Right.
Lex Fridman (3:56:47.240)
Yeah, we've normalized certain kinds of cruelty.
Lex Fridman (3:56:50.240)
And I don't people think, yeah, people think that like I would object to hunting hunting for sport, I think, is grotesque.
Lex Fridman (3:56:59.240)
But if you're hunting and then you're going to eat the entire animal and you're hunting in a way where it's kind of like.
Sarma Melngailis (3:57:09.240)
You know, that that animal like lived a free and happy life until that moment in the same way that the animal lived a free and happy moment, lived a free and happy life.
Sarma Melngailis (3:57:19.240)
Or we don't know, maybe they were depressed, but they lived a free life until like the lion came and took it down.
Lex Fridman (3:57:27.240)
So is a human shooting an animal for food somehow more tragic or horrible than a lion attacking an elk?
Lex Fridman (3:57:37.240)
Yeah, well, so there's a lot of complexities to it on top of all of that.
Lex Fridman (3:57:41.240)
So one, you said sort of hunting for sport is bad, but there's this complex ethical equation of the fact that hunting for sport is the thing that often funds the preservation of a species.
Lex Fridman (3:57:53.240)
That's well, no, that's another complicated layer.
Sarma Melngailis (3:57:55.240)
There's like the Maui venison, all the deer in Hawaii.
Lex Fridman (3:58:00.240)
And I might have gotten Maui venison treats for Leon.
Lex Fridman (3:58:06.240)
But they're they're hunting those deer is a way of preserving.
Lex Fridman (3:58:14.240)
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, these things are complicated.
Lex Fridman (3:58:16.240)
But that's why I don't have a problem with somebody shooting an elk or bringing it home and eating it like my you know, like I've eaten elk jerky and things like that from.
Sarma Melngailis (3:58:28.240)
That's one of those situations where like I wouldn't morally have a problem with it.
Lex Fridman (3:58:33.240)
And for me, it's also I'm not one of those people where I think like, you know, I wouldn't eat meat.
Lex Fridman (3:58:39.240)
It's more like I don't want to add to the consumption of it.
Lex Fridman (3:58:42.240)
And I wouldn't want to eat sort of like the factory farmed meat necessarily unless I'm in prison and it's otherwise going to get thrown away.
Lex Fridman (3:58:51.240)
But hashtag a lot of a lot of things, you know, you know, you make do things differently there. But yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (3:59:03.240)
So, you know, it's just these things are complicated. But so it's not about like, you know, I don't want that in my body.
Lex Fridman (3:59:08.240)
It's sort of like what? Where did it come from and what's going on here?
Lex Fridman (3:59:13.240)
And I think that like if you just followed Joe Rogan's Instagram, there's sort of a bit of a glorification of meat that.
Sarma Melngailis (3:59:27.240)
Because I listen to enough that I heard the one where he talked, there was a recent one where he's talking about Anthony Bourdain.
Lex Fridman (3:59:34.240)
And in that conversation, I think it was that one.
Sarma Melngailis (3:59:37.240)
He explained that he sort of did it in summary. So I feel like he talked about it in the past, but did all this research and came to the conclusion.
Sarma Melngailis (3:59:46.240)
Based on all his research, came to the conclusion that he was either going to be vegetarian or shoot his own meat.
Lex Fridman (3:59:53.240)
Yeah. And hunt. And so that that's totally different.
Sarma Melngailis (3:59:57.240)
That's something I mean, that's very like admirable, I think. And he has the means to do it.
Lex Fridman (40:01.840)
But also energized because a lot of other things and places will make me feel depleted,
Lex Fridman (40:09.280)
but there's something about the energy of New York specifically that feels energizing.
Sarma Melngailis (40:14.400)
I mean, everybody's going up about their day excited for a future they're building and
Lex Fridman (40:20.240)
so on and that could be energy.
Lex Fridman (40:24.480)
Sure.
Sarma Melngailis (40:25.840)
Sure.
Lex Fridman (40:26.720)
It could be overwhelming though.
Sarma Melngailis (40:28.720)
It can be.
Lex Fridman (40:29.680)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (40:30.000)
I mean, also depending on what neighborhood and what part.
Lex Fridman (40:33.440)
Well, I'm just talking about the subway.
Sarma Melngailis (40:35.360)
Right.
Lex Fridman (40:36.480)
And then there's the musicians.
Sarma Melngailis (40:38.400)
I love New York.
Lex Fridman (40:39.120)
New York at its best is a special place.
Sarma Melngailis (40:41.280)
I've never lived, but every time I visit, it's so many characters, so many fascinating
Lex Fridman (40:46.480)
people.
Sarma Melngailis (40:46.800)
Yeah, and then there's a bunch of people always crying in the subway and you're one of those
Lex Fridman (40:50.800)
people.
Sarma Melngailis (40:51.120)
I was one of those people one day.
Lex Fridman (40:52.800)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (40:53.280)
So you got.
Sarma Melngailis (40:53.760)
I befriended some busking musicians like the guys that just play out on the street, these
Sarma Melngailis (41:00.080)
two young guys playing guitar.
Lex Fridman (41:01.280)
And I felt like it was one of those moments where it was like candid camera because nobody
Sarma Melngailis (41:05.120)
was paying attention and I thought it was like, it was so beautiful.
Sarma Melngailis (41:08.880)
I may have cried or almost cried or, but anyway, I ended up becoming friends with them and
Sarma Melngailis (41:14.080)
helping them out in some ways.
Lex Fridman (41:15.680)
And I knew, I was like, well, they're gonna do really well.
Lex Fridman (41:21.920)
And now they're like playing large places and it's kind of fun to watch via Instagram.
Lex Fridman (41:28.640)
You know, they're going on tour in Europe and they were these two scrappy guys.
Sarma Melngailis (41:34.320)
Well, now it's just one of the guys.
Lex Fridman (41:37.360)
But they had like no money, nowhere to live, nothing.
Lex Fridman (41:40.800)
And now they're on tour.
Lex Fridman (41:42.880)
And they didn't quit?
Sarma Melngailis (41:44.480)
No.
Lex Fridman (41:45.040)
Persisted.
Sarma Melngailis (41:46.000)
That's cool.
Lex Fridman (41:46.800)
Exactly.
Sarma Melngailis (41:47.360)
So, but I cried on the subway and I got there and he was there and I adopted him.
Lex Fridman (41:52.880)
But it just felt very profoundly like a force that was beyond me.
Sarma Melngailis (42:01.120)
Like I couldn't not get him.
Lex Fridman (42:03.200)
So he was the same in person as he was in the picture.
Sarma Melngailis (42:06.960)
Like, meaning in terms of like something like pulling you towards him, like some.
Sarma Melngailis (42:13.360)
Yeah, when I first met him the day before, he was really distracted, which I think is,
Sarma Melngailis (42:19.760)
you know, he is a puppy that spends most of his day in a cage, which is not natural.
Lex Fridman (42:23.760)
So when I, they let me take him for a walk and he was kind of, you know,
Sarma Melngailis (42:28.880)
distracted and all over the place.
Lex Fridman (42:30.320)
But then when we put him back in the cage, he sort of lay down and looked at me and I
Sarma Melngailis (42:35.760)
looked back at him.
Lex Fridman (42:36.560)
And of course, I imagined all kinds of, I just looked at him and I thought, all right,
Sarma Melngailis (42:40.960)
I'm, don't worry, I'm coming back to get you.
Lex Fridman (42:43.600)
Like I'll, I'll get you.
Sarma Melngailis (42:45.520)
So, yeah, it just, it felt like, it felt like something that I had no choice that I had to do.
Lex Fridman (42:56.800)
And that was the beginning of a 12 year journey together.
Sarma Melngailis (43:01.120)
An ongoing, an ongoing one.
Lex Fridman (43:03.040)
But so I wrote about these things on my website and I think it was, you know, among the many
Sarma Melngailis (43:08.800)
things that was later weaponized by Anthony Strangest.
Lex Fridman (43:16.240)
Just because I was so open about it.
Sarma Melngailis (43:19.280)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (43:19.600)
And also just, it's not like I believe that he was, you know, that I was just expressing
Sarma Melngailis (43:24.480)
my feelings about how I felt going to get him, that there was something about Leon specifically
Lex Fridman (43:30.080)
that I, it was like, I felt like I had to get him.
Lex Fridman (43:32.800)
So, is there words you can put to your connection with Leon?
Lex Fridman (43:38.720)
Like, is it love?
Lex Fridman (43:41.040)
Is it friendship?
Lex Fridman (43:43.760)
Is it some kind of, like, what is it?
Lex Fridman (43:49.200)
Or are we getting to the crying and being overwhelmed?
Lex Fridman (43:53.040)
Something you just can't put words to?
Sarma Melngailis (43:56.080)
Yeah, it's probably something that's hard to put words to.
Sarma Melngailis (43:58.400)
Kind of like, I sort of feel like love being something that's hard to define is part of,
Sarma Melngailis (44:07.840)
is the definition of love.
Lex Fridman (44:09.840)
The fact that you can't define it.
Sarma Melngailis (44:11.520)
You know, the moment you define it, you're no longer talking about love.
Lex Fridman (44:14.960)
Sort of, something like that.
Sarma Melngailis (44:17.680)
So.
Lex Fridman (44:18.320)
Well, my definition of love is whatever's going on in true romance.
Sarma Melngailis (44:22.400)
I don't know.
Sarma Melngailis (44:22.880)
Let me fly through the timeline before we get to any of the interesting details.
Sarma Melngailis (44:28.880)
So, in 2011, you meet Anthony Stranjes.
Lex Fridman (44:33.840)
Then in 2012, you two get married.
Sarma Melngailis (44:38.080)
2015, the staff walk out due to failure to pay from the two restaurants.
Lex Fridman (44:45.440)
It reopens in April of 2015 and July of that year, there's another walkout.
Lex Fridman (44:51.840)
And so on.
Lex Fridman (44:52.960)
There's all this kind of stuff.
Sarma Melngailis (44:54.880)
It's a confusing timeline.
Lex Fridman (44:56.720)
Well, it's not, to me, that's not even.
Sarma Melngailis (44:59.040)
The point is in 2015, there's chaos happening.
Lex Fridman (45:03.280)
Okay.
Sarma Melngailis (45:04.560)
2016, in the spring, Pure Foods and Wine closes.
Lex Fridman (45:09.280)
Closed in 2015.
Sarma Melngailis (45:11.920)
2015.
Lex Fridman (45:12.560)
Okay.
Sarma Melngailis (45:13.520)
There's some factual stuff that's not, yeah, maybe correct me on it.
Lex Fridman (45:17.360)
To me, it's not that important.
Sarma Melngailis (45:18.560)
To me, the spirit of the thing is important.
Lex Fridman (45:21.040)
Okay.
Sarma Melngailis (45:21.680)
May 12, 2016, you and your then husband, Anthony Stranjes,
Lex Fridman (45:27.760)
were arrested after he ordered pizza using his real name.
Sarma Melngailis (45:31.920)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (45:32.640)
In May 2017, you pleaded guilty to stealing more than $2 million from investors
Lex Fridman (45:39.440)
and scheming to defraud, as well as, this is from Wikipedia.
Lex Fridman (45:44.560)
Yeah, that's wrong.
Sarma Melngailis (45:46.160)
Well, let me just finish reading it and then you tell me why it's wrong.
Lex Fridman (45:49.040)
In May 2017, you pleaded guilty to stealing more than $2 million from investors
Lex Fridman (45:54.160)
and scheming to defraud, as well as, criminal tax fraud charges.
Lex Fridman (45:58.080)
Why is Wikipedia wrong?
Lex Fridman (45:59.680)
And how dare you?
Lex Fridman (46:01.760)
Well, I mean, I did plead guilty to those things, which I had to.
Sarma Melngailis (46:05.920)
Oh, I got a jury duty summons and I had to fill out what charges I pled guilty to.
Lex Fridman (46:12.960)
And I had to go online and look it up because I didn't really remember,
Sarma Melngailis (46:17.760)
which is, I thought that was interesting.
Lex Fridman (46:19.920)
I had to go look it up, but...
Sarma Melngailis (46:21.440)
Actually, let me finish the time because there's one more point.
Lex Fridman (46:23.440)
Oh, yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (46:24.880)
March 16, 2022, Bad Vegan Documentary comes out, where you're interviewed.
Lex Fridman (46:32.160)
Does they tell the story?
Sarma Melngailis (46:35.200)
Some stuff is true, some is not, some is disturbingly misleading, as you said.
Lex Fridman (46:39.760)
Okay.
Sarma Melngailis (46:40.240)
Timeline over.
Lex Fridman (46:41.120)
Anyway, what's wrong with the...
Lex Fridman (46:42.960)
How would you elaborate onto the you pleading guilty for $2 million stealing?
Sarma Melngailis (46:49.280)
So, a lot of people plead guilty for reasons other than they're actually guilty.
Sarma Melngailis (46:55.040)
So, even right now, if I knew that I was going to have to spend four months or three and a half
Sarma Melngailis (47:04.000)
at Rikers, and I was thinking about this recently, and even if I knew that I'd be acquitted,
Sarma Melngailis (47:11.200)
at the end of a trial, I very likely would have just taken the four months because the stress
Sarma Melngailis (47:23.280)
of going through a trial, but in particular, it'd be incredibly stressful not knowing the outcome.
Lex Fridman (47:28.880)
And then money and expense I didn't have.
Lex Fridman (47:31.440)
And so, people plead guilty all the time, even if they don't think that they should.
Lex Fridman (47:36.800)
And my situation was so complicated and hard to understand that it just was the easier thing to do.
Lex Fridman (47:44.480)
But also, I just was kind of going on the advice of lawyers and...
Sarma Melngailis (47:48.960)
So, the choice, just so I understand, was to plead guilty or to go through a lengthy trial.
Lex Fridman (47:56.880)
And that trial would stretch a long time, and it would be extremely stressful.
Lex Fridman (48:03.520)
And extremely expensive.
Lex Fridman (48:08.400)
Because you have to pay the lawyers.
Sarma Melngailis (48:10.240)
Right. And I didn't have anything.
Lex Fridman (48:11.840)
Right. And so, a lot of people in that situation might choose to plead guilty.
Lex Fridman (48:18.320)
And so, that doesn't necessarily mean the full heaviness of that statement of guilt.
Sarma Melngailis (48:24.640)
Right. And I think people plead guilty all the time in situations where they're being threatened with
Sarma Melngailis (48:30.240)
a heavy sentence, and they sort of feel like they have no choice.
Lex Fridman (48:36.160)
But that's kind of part of a lot of things that are messed up about the system overall
Sarma Melngailis (48:41.120)
that didn't necessarily apply in my case.
Lex Fridman (48:43.120)
So, we'll talk about to what degree you're guilty and what that even means.
Sarma Melngailis (48:49.920)
Yeah. Yeah. Because it depends on intention, I think.
Sarma Melngailis (48:54.960)
Yeah. Yeah. But then the word intention also means a lot of things, like the word love.
Sarma Melngailis (49:01.680)
That's true.
Lex Fridman (49:02.720)
All right.
Sarma Melngailis (49:04.720)
So, the restaurant closed the first time when I was away and told to be off communication.
Lex Fridman (49:16.320)
And then I...
Sarma Melngailis (49:17.120)
By Anthony.
Lex Fridman (49:17.840)
Yes. And then...
Sarma Melngailis (49:20.160)
He told you not to talk to anybody.
Lex Fridman (49:21.840)
He told me not to talk to anybody.
Sarma Melngailis (49:23.520)
He told me not to like open email or look at my phone or whatever.
Lex Fridman (49:29.920)
And so, when I came back and had to get it reopened, which seemed like
Sarma Melngailis (49:37.600)
an unbelievably difficult task, and I was kind of shocked that I was able to pull it off.
Lex Fridman (49:43.600)
You know, I worked incredibly hard to get it reopened.
Sarma Melngailis (49:46.800)
And, you know, because that place meant everything to me. And so, I just had to get it reopened.
Lex Fridman (49:55.520)
Were you surrounded by people that were just angry at you?
Sarma Melngailis (49:58.400)
At that time? Not... Well...
Lex Fridman (4:00:03.240)
Not only that, he does it with a bow. Right. Even more so.
Sarma Melngailis (4:00:08.240)
It is a good question. It's a good question how we get out of this factory.
Lex Fridman (4:00:15.240)
Right. Because I do like I like meat. I think it's delicious.
Lex Fridman (4:00:21.240)
And we're dependent on the not just on the nutrients and the taste. We're also dependent on the cost.
Sarma Melngailis (4:00:29.240)
A lot of people have gotten used to a particular kind of cost that they pay for meat.
Sarma Melngailis (4:00:34.240)
Right. But I think if you wiped out all the government subsidies, it would be a completely different story.
Lex Fridman (4:00:40.240)
Because why are vegetables so expensive? And all the subsidies.
Lex Fridman (4:00:45.240)
Somebody who bought some tomatoes yesterday. I'm protesting. Why is salad so expensive?
Sarma Melngailis (4:00:51.240)
Right. But none of the if you if you look at the subsidies that are given to the all of the inputs to the meat industry, like the grain and soy and whatnot,
Lex Fridman (4:01:04.240)
and then to the meat and dairy industries and all the subsidies that prop up those industries and allow those products to be cheap and and sustainable from a business perspective, not environmental.
Lex Fridman (4:01:18.240)
It's government subsidies. So what if we took all that away?
Lex Fridman (4:01:21.240)
And then also, what if we gave that to, you know, the the kale and hemp and fresh greens farmers then and made those foods more affordable and then had meat reflect its actual true cost?
Sarma Melngailis (4:01:38.240)
Then, you know, then people would just eat more vegetables and less meat because of the cost.
Sarma Melngailis (4:01:45.240)
You mentioned that you crossed off one item from your list. I forget what the item was, but.
Sarma Melngailis (4:01:51.240)
Oh, it was I had previously thought that I would want to go to Vegas one day just to cross that off my list.
Lex Fridman (4:01:56.240)
And it's not like I was like, oh, one day I want to go to Vegas. It was just like, I imagined I would only go there once just to see it and then be done with it.
Sarma Melngailis (4:02:06.240)
Yeah. Yeah. That's a good one. That's a good one. And I still think you can do it because there's a particular Vegas experience that's worth having. And there's maybe a couple of Vegas experiences that are worth having.
Sarma Melngailis (4:02:19.240)
I find casinos horribly depressing because I think they're just predatory. Everything about them is predatory.
Lex Fridman (4:02:26.240)
It's not it's not it's not the casinos that are important. It's the people.
Sarma Melngailis (4:02:29.240)
The culture and the whole crazy atmosphere.
Sarma Melngailis (4:02:31.240)
The people you meet, the people you meet in the chaos that is Las Vegas can create a memorable experience.
Sarma Melngailis (4:02:40.240)
You lose track of what is what is day, what is night. You can get drunk and make all the mistakes that somehow create a beautiful masterpiece at the end of it.
Sarma Melngailis (4:02:51.240)
That's for another time. What else is on the bucket list? What items on the bucket list you haven't done yet? You really, really would like.
Sarma Melngailis (4:02:58.240)
We talked about mortality, that there's a finite deadline. What pops in your head is something that you want to still do.
Lex Fridman (4:03:06.240)
What I want is to not die and owe people money. So.
Lex Fridman (4:03:11.240)
So whatever mistakes you make.
Sarma Melngailis (4:03:13.240)
I want to I want to live to write those things. And I also felt really strongly about my what I what I and everybody in the business had built. And so a big part of me wants to resurrect the brand.
Sarma Melngailis (4:03:36.240)
Because when I I felt really strongly about it, like I had that feeling that this was.
Sarma Melngailis (4:03:43.240)
This was going to be a thing that I I wanted to build and grow and could have a really positive impact and outlast me.
Lex Fridman (4:03:50.240)
And would you bring it back as the same name?
Sarma Melngailis (4:03:54.240)
Yeah, well, I put the logo on my arm. That's kind of how strongly I felt about it. And so when I did that and around that time and all of that time, I felt really, really strongly that.
Sarma Melngailis (4:04:09.240)
Quietly, because it feels like a little bit bold, but quietly felt really almost with a certainty that it was going to be something really big and it was growing and growing and all signs were pointing towards there.
Sarma Melngailis (4:04:27.240)
I was just sort of stalled and couldn't figure out the logistics and then enter Mr. Fox.
Lex Fridman (4:04:33.240)
So the universe can be quite absurdly cruel at times.
Lex Fridman (4:04:40.240)
But yeah, but that is something that's something worth reaching for is repay the debts of the past.
Lex Fridman (4:04:50.240)
And then people have said to me that Leon achieved some kind of immortality via being in the documentary. And then I might I don't understand this world at all, but I might do like an NFT thing related to Leon's image, which would be another way of kind of immortalizing his image, at least.
Lex Fridman (4:05:12.240)
Yeah, but that's a I mean, it's a potentially in progress kind of a crazy leap.
Lex Fridman (4:05:21.240)
But and potentially relaunching the restaurant.
Sarma Melngailis (4:05:26.240)
Possibly, yes, there's the restaurant and there's one lucky duck in that brand and they're sort of separate but related and they could each exist independently.
Sarma Melngailis (4:05:39.240)
I liked it better when they existed together because I felt like they were very complimentary in a lot of ways and they made sense together. But either one could be done separately without the other.
Lex Fridman (4:05:50.240)
Do you think you will find love again, given the chaos you had to go through?
Sarma Melngailis (4:05:59.240)
I have and I never talk about it. I've never talked about it.
Lex Fridman (4:06:04.240)
You have found love again?
Sarma Melngailis (4:06:06.240)
Yes, but also in a kind of possibly doomed temporary way, which
Lex Fridman (4:06:14.240)
You don't like it simple do you?
Sarma Melngailis (4:06:17.240)
It's not that it's not simple. It's actually quite simple. It's just that, again, there's a large age gap.
Sarma Melngailis (4:06:24.240)
I'm the older one, which in itself isn't a problem, because, again, I wouldn't I wouldn't want to like if somebody wanted kids in a family, I wouldn't want to hold them back from that.
Lex Fridman (4:06:37.240)
And so if I sort of wanted to be with somebody who wanted those things, even if I was completely in love with somebody, I would have to kind of like.
Sarma Melngailis (4:06:49.240)
You know, hurt, endure the pain to be like, no, I'm going to keep you from those things, so you should go do those things.
Lex Fridman (4:06:58.240)
So that's that's the source of the temporariness?
Sarma Melngailis (4:07:03.240)
No, it's a bit related to like logistics and living one place and having like extremely different lifestyles.
Lex Fridman (4:07:15.240)
Is this a prince of some sort?
Lex Fridman (4:07:17.240)
No.
Lex Fridman (4:07:18.240)
Does he have a castle?
Lex Fridman (4:07:22.240)
No.
Sarma Melngailis (4:07:23.240)
Okay. All right.
Lex Fridman (4:07:24.240)
No, no.
Lex Fridman (4:07:25.240)
Are you going to say who it is or we're going to keep that a mystery?
Sarma Melngailis (4:07:29.240)
I don't on the one hand, like I feel like it's a it's protective for me to talk about it in some ways.
Lex Fridman (4:07:36.240)
But I also worry because very often I avoid saying anything because for a lot of reasons, but one being that people freak out and just assume that I'm going to step into something horrible again, because I did step into something horribly destructive again after Mr. Fox.
Lex Fridman (4:07:55.240)
And what happened was I allowed something to happen. And so going back to that, what advice would you give to people? I would I would tell people to be very careful to be deliberate about who they're getting involved with and thoughtful about it and making sure that they're not just allowing something to happen.
Lex Fridman (4:08:15.240)
So it's like, you know, men can sometimes be and I suppose women can be as well. But people can be very persistent. Sometimes that's a good thing.
Lex Fridman (4:08:26.240)
But it could also be a dangerous thing because sometimes somebody might just and this has happened to me a lot where somebody just wears you down and you're like, oh, fine, you know?
Sarma Melngailis (4:08:37.240)
That's funny.
Lex Fridman (4:08:38.240)
And yeah, no, but it works. It's shockingly like the things that I've done in the spirit of like or not wanting to hurt somebody's feelings. That's another that's another dangerous to be nice. Let's get married just to be nice. That's another dangerous thing.
Lex Fridman (4:08:51.240)
And also maybe you should say I'm like circling back to all these unanswered questions from before.
Lex Fridman (4:08:56.240)
But I didn't marry. I married I married him. He like convinced me to marry him in this very quick, annoying way. And as if it was like something I had to do and I'd be protected and all kinds of weird reasons.
Lex Fridman (4:09:10.240)
And it was just like my response to my my agreeing to marry him was like, oh, fine.
Lex Fridman (4:09:19.240)
And then I remember being embarrassed at City Hall going to get the license.
Sarma Melngailis (4:09:27.240)
You know, people who are in love and wanting to get married aren't sitting in City Hall mortified and embarrassed, you know, so yeah, but so it was so I sort of cringe when people call him my ex husband because I don't think of him that way.
Sarma Melngailis (4:09:39.240)
It sort of is even though technically that's correct. Yeah, but there's a there's a powerful romantic notion to the thing and do those words and that that had nothing to do with you getting married. It was more.
Sarma Melngailis (4:09:51.240)
It was just like another thing that he made me do like a chore that just had, you know, unfortunate consequences of like then having to get divorced and the whole.
Sarma Melngailis (4:10:01.240)
Yeah, I think I think even weddings are romantic like the whole the cheesy thing. There's, you know. Yeah, they are. Those are cool. I agree. We don't get many, many of those in life.
Sarma Melngailis (4:10:14.240)
Well, you know what, let's keep it a mystery. Let's keep the person a mystery.
Sarma Melngailis (4:10:21.240)
To be continued on season two on conversations with some like a known person or anything, but I feel like people always worry that.
Sarma Melngailis (4:10:32.240)
I'm stepping back into something and I don't have the energy to be so should they be defensive and no.
Lex Fridman (4:10:38.240)
There you go. Don't worry friends. No. And also just.
Sarma Melngailis (4:10:42.240)
Remember that thing I was saying about how like it's good if you get to know somebody really slowly over a long period of time. Yeah, it's kind of one of those situations. So I feel very confident that I'm like certain that I'm not stepping into something where I'm going to be surprised and somebody turns out to be not who they presented themselves to be.
Lex Fridman (4:10:59.240)
So that's the wise way to do it.
Sarma Melngailis (4:11:02.240)
Especially for me. Yeah. And also, again, it's like I would I would I would caution people to be careful about, you know, wanting to go into something deliberately versus kind of getting caught up in something and or rushed or.
Sarma Melngailis (4:11:20.240)
That said, I would I would suggest people take that cautionary advice, but sometimes you just fall in love.
Sarma Melngailis (4:11:28.240)
Yeah. Love at first sight is the thing. There are those stories of, you know, sweet stories of older people that have been married forever.
Lex Fridman (4:11:36.240)
You can get hurt for it too, but don't don't listen to your heart.
Sarma Melngailis (4:11:43.240)
This was an incredible conversation.
Lex Fridman (4:11:46.240)
We talked for way over four hours. We did. Yeah.
Lex Fridman (4:11:50.240)
And I feel like I can keep talking to you. This was amazing. Summer, thank you so much for being honest, for for being fearless in answering all the questions, all the difficult questions.
Lex Fridman (4:12:06.240)
And thank you for trying to create something special with your restaurant.
Lex Fridman (4:12:13.240)
And maybe create something special still in your future.
Lex Fridman (4:12:17.240)
Yeah, I hope so. Thank you for having me. I kept thinking.
Sarma Melngailis (4:12:22.240)
I kept thinking that, like, I was going to get a message that was like, just kidding.
Sarma Melngailis (4:12:27.240)
I just I've listened to your podcast a lot. And so I've certainly felt very intimidated knowing who's sat, if not in this actual chair, in this chair, in another location or maybe here.
Sarma Melngailis (4:12:39.240)
Very. Are you nervous? Yes.
Lex Fridman (4:12:42.240)
And I was nervous, too. Yeah. But at the same time, but also because I've because I know the way that you speak in your style, I felt like it was going to feel like a good natural conversation as opposed to sometimes you have conversations where it's like.
Sarma Melngailis (4:12:59.240)
Anyway, I didn't feel nervous because of like what I was walking into. I felt nervous that I was going to, you know, sound stupid and boring and everybody would be like, why did he interview her? It was exciting.
Sarma Melngailis (4:13:13.240)
You happy with it? How do we do? Yeah, I think so. Very often after. Are you self critical after stuff? Yes.
Sarma Melngailis (4:13:22.240)
When you go home tonight, are you going to be, like, happy with yourself or not? I mean, I feel good. I don't feel like I can't think of anything that I said that I regret.
Sarma Melngailis (4:13:32.240)
Maybe there's things that, you know, somebody is going to yell at me because I said something that I said, like, meat tastes good or something or I don't, you know, like this like vegan judgment.
Sarma Melngailis (4:13:41.240)
Yes. Yes.
Lex Fridman (4:13:43.240)
But I think it's more useful to be honest about the contradictions and conflicting feelings because I feel like that's what most people have. And so if you want to help people shift a certain way.
Sarma Melngailis (4:13:55.240)
Yeah, you were raw, honest. It was beautiful. It was beautiful to watch. Thank you for the books.
Sarma Melngailis (4:14:04.240)
Your darkness today was visible. But the beauty too. It was an amazing conversation. I'm really, really happy with it. I'm honored that you sit down with me. That was awesome.
Sarma Melngailis (4:14:16.240)
I'm floored that you're honored and I'm honored that you asked me to be here. So. Thank you, Sarma.
Sarma Melngailis (4:14:24.240)
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Sarma Melengales. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, let me leave you with some words from playwright August Wilson.
Sarma Melngailis (4:14:36.240)
Confront the dark parts of yourself and work to banish them with illumination and forgiveness. Your willingness to wrestle with your demons will cause your angels to sing.
Lex Fridman (4:14:48.240)
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
Sarma Melngailis (50:00.000)
Just the staff and all that.
Lex Fridman (50:02.960)
Yeah, but most of them came back. A lot of them came back.
Sarma Melngailis (50:05.840)
I think what was so unbelievably painful about that whole time
Lex Fridman (50:11.600)
was like not being able to tell anybody what was really going on.
Lex Fridman (50:15.200)
And in a sense, not really knowing what was going on myself, but not being able to...
Lex Fridman (50:19.520)
Like having to pretend all the time was just like soul crushing.
Lex Fridman (50:23.520)
So you didn't really tell anybody about Anthony?
Lex Fridman (50:26.560)
About him and what was really going on,
Sarma Melngailis (50:28.800)
in part because I didn't really understand what was going on.
Lex Fridman (50:31.600)
So what I did was I raised money to reopen the restaurant,
Lex Fridman (50:34.400)
and I think I raised something like eight, maybe like 900 grand.
Lex Fridman (50:40.480)
And probably 90% of that went to reopen the restaurant.
Lex Fridman (50:47.760)
And I even made two sales tax payments right before we disappeared.
Lex Fridman (50:53.680)
So it just sort of logically seemed like...
Lex Fridman (50:57.200)
So I didn't... It's not like all of this money was taken
Lex Fridman (51:00.320)
and then he and I ran off together with a whole bunch of money.
Sarma Melngailis (51:04.800)
It was like I raised a bunch of money to reopen the restaurant,
Lex Fridman (51:07.680)
not because I wanted the restaurant to exist again and I wanted to run it.
Sarma Melngailis (51:14.480)
I wanted to reopen the restaurant.
Lex Fridman (51:16.640)
And most of that money went to reopen the restaurant and then I disappeared.
Lex Fridman (51:23.600)
So sort of the timeline gets a bit wonky.
Lex Fridman (51:29.600)
So this impression was created that we ran off with a whole bunch of money and we didn't.
Lex Fridman (51:35.600)
So if I wanted to be a criminal and steal a bunch of money,
Lex Fridman (51:40.400)
why would I have put it all back into the restaurant and reopened it?
Lex Fridman (51:44.400)
And then also made two $10,000 sales tax payments that I didn't...
Lex Fridman (51:50.800)
And I also repaid $10,000 of another loan.
Sarma Melngailis (51:55.840)
I was making repayments and stuff and then boom, I disappear.
Lex Fridman (51:58.560)
So is your mind going through a roller coaster here? So could there have been multiple yous there?
Lex Fridman (52:05.920)
So one mind is like, I love this restaurant. I'm going to reopen it.
Lex Fridman (52:10.800)
I'm this chef, business owner, this person.
Lex Fridman (52:15.920)
And then the other is a human that's in this complicated love affair.
Lex Fridman (52:22.880)
It wasn't a love affair.
Sarma Melngailis (52:24.480)
Okay. These are just words. How can I... Okay.
Sarma Melngailis (52:30.480)
I don't want to... I say that lightly, but also not because love can make us do dark things.
Sarma Melngailis (52:38.960)
You can say that's not love, but okay.
Sarma Melngailis (52:43.920)
The thing that traps us, the things that pulls us in to a connection with another human being,
Sarma Melngailis (52:49.440)
that's love, even when it's abusive and dark and toxic and all those kinds of things.
Sarma Melngailis (52:54.720)
In some cases, I think, like if it's voluntary, but in other cases, somebody pulls you in.
Lex Fridman (53:01.360)
So it's not like you're drawn towards them. They pull you in.
Lex Fridman (53:05.760)
So just to clarify, even when it's not physical, when the pull is with words, so it's emotional.
Sarma Melngailis (53:13.600)
Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis (53:14.160)
Okay. Where is your mind when you raise $800,000 to $900,000 to open the restaurant,
Lex Fridman (53:25.280)
working your ass off to open this thing, making payments, and then all of a sudden disappearing?
Lex Fridman (53:33.440)
Where was your mind? If you had a lengthy conversation with Karl Deisseroth
Lex Fridman (53:39.440)
in privacy, what would you be telling him as your therapist?
Lex Fridman (53:42.000)
I would probably be asking him questions.
Sarma Melngailis (53:45.680)
Okay, no. I forget Karl is part of this.
Lex Fridman (53:48.160)
Well, actually, I have more questions for Andrew Huberman because I've had to
Sarma Melngailis (53:54.480)
investigate all of these things myself, like dissociation.
Sarma Melngailis (54:02.320)
There's a psychologist who believes that he must have used neurolinguistic programming on me,
Sarma Melngailis (54:07.360)
which is something that Keith Ranieri from the NXIVM cult, he was known to have used that with
Sarma Melngailis (54:12.880)
people. And I think neurolinguistic programming is kind of the same as like a sort of like hypnotism.
Sarma Melngailis (54:20.560)
The only reason I know about what NLP is, is because in what I do, there's something called
Sarma Melngailis (54:26.400)
natural language processing, artificial intelligence stuff. So it has the same, like three letters.
Sarma Melngailis (54:32.240)
Right.
Lex Fridman (54:33.520)
What was the other thing that NLP, neurolinguistic program?
Sarma Melngailis (54:36.160)
Neurolinguistic programming.
Sarma Melngailis (54:37.840)
Yeah. Anyway. All right. Well, we talked about Andrew, my friend Andrew Huberman offline,
Lex Fridman (54:44.480)
and you definitely, you should do a podcast with him. He's a fascinating, he's such a
Lex Fridman (54:48.800)
brilliant and kind human being. Definitely worth talking to.
Sarma Melngailis (54:52.320)
Yeah, I've listened to a lot of his podcasts.
Lex Fridman (54:54.960)
And you said that you listened to a lot of his instructions on getting light
Sarma Melngailis (55:00.560)
in the morning or whatever during the day. It's very important for your
Sarma Melngailis (55:03.440)
mental, like there's all these kinds of studies. It's good for your mind, for your...
Sarma Melngailis (55:07.760)
Oh, and also the other thing that he got me to do is to try to delay having coffee. So instead of
Sarma Melngailis (55:13.200)
having coffee right when you wake up, I always drink a lot of water first, but then instead of
Sarma Melngailis (55:17.680)
having coffee right away, if you wait an hour or an hour and a half or two hours, then your body is
Sarma Melngailis (55:23.680)
able to naturally do something that drinking coffee too soon would sort of blunt that. So then
Sarma Melngailis (55:29.600)
you'll be more tired in the afternoon. So if you wait an hour and a half or two hours, or as long,
Sarma Melngailis (55:35.920)
you know, before you have your first cup of coffee, then you won't be as tired in the afternoon.
Sarma Melngailis (55:40.640)
Interesting.
Lex Fridman (55:41.360)
There's a lot of...
Lex Fridman (55:42.400)
Does it work?
Lex Fridman (55:43.200)
Yes.
Sarma Melngailis (55:43.920)
One coffee addict talking to another coffee addict.
Sarma Melngailis (55:46.400)
Yes, it works. And so I try to get up and do other things first before I have coffee.
Lex Fridman (55:53.600)
And the light thing also makes a lot of sense to me. Getting light early in the morning, I have one
Sarma Melngailis (56:00.960)
of those bright light boxes, and I would love to have an apartment that had a little deck or
Sarma Melngailis (56:07.680)
something where I could just step outside, because when you live in an apartment, you kind of have to
Sarma Melngailis (56:11.360)
like go all the way outside, and then there's people everywhere. And so to get that early
Sarma Melngailis (56:16.000)
morning light isn't that hard to do when you're...
Lex Fridman (56:18.080)
Are people good for you or bad for you?
Lex Fridman (56:19.680)
What does Andrew Huberman say about that? I'm just kidding, it's a joke. Okay, so moving back to
Lex Fridman (56:25.040)
where was your mind that led you to disappear to, did you guys go to Vegas first and then to Tennessee?
Sarma Melngailis (56:31.440)
No, I kind of refer to it as like the road trip from hell.
Sarma Melngailis (56:34.880)
It's a very Hunter S. Thompson way to describe it. You went back to back country.
Sarma Melngailis (56:40.000)
Maybe it was sort of Hunter S. Thompsonesque, except without actual drugs.
Sarma Melngailis (56:45.200)
That was one of the first questions my father asked me was, was it drugs? And I wished that I could have said yes,
Sarma Melngailis (56:53.440)
because I didn't know how to explain what had happened. But he took me away involuntarily,
Sarma Melngailis (57:01.840)
except, you know, of course, he wasn't holding a gun to my head. But all along, it was like a metaphorical gun.
Lex Fridman (57:09.280)
Was there ever physical contact with your father?
Lex Fridman (57:12.560)
No. What would qualify as sexual abuse? Yes. But physically, no.
Sarma Melngailis (57:22.160)
A couple of times we would get into a slightly physical fights, but he never...
Sarma Melngailis (57:27.280)
I mean, he was big and as large and blubbery as he was. He was also really strong.
Lex Fridman (57:37.360)
So sometimes he would like subdue me. But other than that, no, there wasn't physical violence.
Lex Fridman (57:42.800)
But a lot of people will say that the psychological violence is, I don't want to diminish physical violence,
Lex Fridman (57:52.720)
but some people say that the psychological and emotional violence is more destructive.
Lex Fridman (57:57.360)
It's just that the physical violence is easier to identify.
Sarma Melngailis (58:01.360)
It's easier to identify. It's easier to identify the physical violence.
Sarma Melngailis (58:05.360)
It's easier to identify. It's easier to identify and it seems kind of more straightforward.
Sarma Melngailis (58:10.400)
Whereas psychological, you know, and you have a bruise on your face or you break a bone and those things
Sarma Melngailis (58:15.280)
hopefully heal in a visible way. But psychological stuff, you know, you can't easily identify or understand
Sarma Melngailis (58:25.440)
or others can't easily identify it. And then you find yourself crying for no reason at a beautiful song at some point.
Lex Fridman (58:32.720)
And that has to do something happening in the depth of your mind.
Lex Fridman (58:38.080)
Okay, so he took you away. But where was, I mean, where was your mind that was doing both of those things?
Lex Fridman (58:46.080)
Was able to be taken away, but also was pushing to the flourishing, the reopening and the flourishing of the restaurant?
Sarma Melngailis (58:55.600)
Well, you know, I wouldn't have reopened the restaurant and then knowing I was gonna all of a sudden be taken away from it
Lex Fridman (59:01.840)
and it was gonna get closed again. You know, it's like, why would I do that? Why would anybody do that?
Lex Fridman (59:07.680)
And one of the things that I tried to do towards the end was I was trying to get myself off the bank accounts
Sarma Melngailis (59:14.160)
because I didn't want him to be able to get money out of me. And so there was one time when I tried to get one of the investors,
Sarma Melngailis (59:21.280)
we went to the bank together to put her on as the signer and take me off.
Lex Fridman (59:25.760)
And because we didn't have the operating agreement, they wouldn't let us do it.
Lex Fridman (59:29.200)
So it was like this little snafu. And so all of these things are sort of the opposite of criminal intent.
Lex Fridman (59:38.560)
But that's a legal thing. What's going on in your mind at this time?
Sarma Melngailis (59:43.280)
I don't know. I mean...
Lex Fridman (59:44.960)
Were you, did you give yourself a chance to just think?
Sarma Melngailis (59:51.280)
No. And I think that's part of one of the things that might have saved me or anybody that's pulled into a cult.
Sarma Melngailis (59:59.600)
One of the things that they do is they keep you exhausted, overwhelmed, confused and afraid.
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