Ryan Hall: Martial Arts and the Philosophy of Violence, Power, and Grace

Lex Fridman (01:28.080)

and maybe even comedians who inspire me,

Ryan Hall (01:31.680)

especially up and coming comedians and musicians

Lex Fridman (01:34.360)

like Eric Weinstein, who yes,

Ryan Hall (01:36.560)

we'll do a third conversation with soon.

Lex Fridman (01:39.240)

I think if I allow myself to expand the range

Ryan Hall (01:41.440)

of these conversations on occasion,

Lex Fridman (01:43.560)

when I do return to science and engineering,

Ryan Hall (01:45.400)

I'll bring a new perspective and also a little bit more fun

Lex Fridman (01:49.680)

and a few extra listeners

Ryan Hall (01:51.960)

that may not otherwise realize how fascinating

Lex Fridman (01:55.720)

artificial intelligence, robotics, mathematics,

Lex Fridman (01:58.040)

and engineering truly is.

Lex Fridman (02:00.840)

All that said, please skip the episodes

Ryan Hall (02:03.440)

that don't interest you.

Lex Fridman (02:04.480)

You don't have to listen to all of them.

Ryan Hall (02:06.800)

Trust me, as someone who is a bit or a lot OCD,

Lex Fridman (02:11.120)

that idea is quite unpleasant.

Lex Fridman (02:13.120)

But life, friends, is full of unpleasant things.

Lex Fridman (02:17.600)

But as Hunter S. Thompson suggested,

Lex Fridman (02:19.480)

and I suggest as well,

Lex Fridman (02:20.980)

you should still buy the ticket and take the ride.

Ryan Hall (02:24.440)

If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube,

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review it with five stars on Apple Podcast,

Ryan Hall (02:28.400)

follow on Spotify, support on Patreon,

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or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman.

Ryan Hall (02:34.600)

As usual, I'll do a few minutes of ads now

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and no ads in the middle.

Ryan Hall (02:38.040)

I try to make these interesting,

Lex Fridman (02:39.780)

but I give you the timestamp,

Lex Fridman (02:41.020)

so please skip if you don't want to listen to the ads,

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but it does mean a lot to me when you do.

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And still please do check out the sponsors

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by clicking on the links in the description.

Ryan Hall (02:49.580)

It really is the best way to support this podcast.

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This show is sponsored by Power Dot.

Ryan Hall (02:55.040)

Get it at PowerDot.com slash Lex

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and use code Lex at checkout to get 20% off.

Ryan Hall (03:01.400)

I use it for muscle recovery for legs and shoulders,

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but you can also use it to build muscle,

Ryan Hall (03:06.720)

endurance, or even just warm up.

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In fact, I first heard about this kind of

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electrical muscle stimulation device

Lex Fridman (03:13.760)

in reading that Bruce Lee used it.

Ryan Hall (03:15.960)

He was an inspiration to me

Lex Fridman (03:18.080)

as someone who practices first principles thinking,

Ryan Hall (03:21.680)

especially in a discipline

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where conventional thinking is everywhere.

Ryan Hall (03:25.120)

He created a martial art called Jeet Kune Do

Lex Fridman (03:27.240)

that is in many ways, at least philosophically

Ryan Hall (03:30.100)

in its hybrid approach,

Lex Fridman (03:31.400)

a precursor to modern day mixed martial arts.

Ryan Hall (03:34.360)

There's a special kind of deep philosophical thinking

Lex Fridman (03:36.840)

that combat athletes or jiu jitsu practitioners do

Ryan Hall (03:40.060)

that is unlike any other.

Lex Fridman (03:42.440)

I think it's grounded in the humbling process

Ryan Hall (03:45.440)

of getting your ass kicked a lot.

Lex Fridman (03:47.920)

That removes any illusion of intellectual superiority.

Ryan Hall (03:51.060)

I think the journey towards wisdom starts

Lex Fridman (03:53.200)

when you humbly admit to yourself

Ryan Hall (03:55.400)

that you know very little or almost nothing.

Lex Fridman (03:58.880)

Anyway, go to PowerDot.com slash Lex

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and use code Lex at checkout to get 20% off

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on top of the 30 day free trial.

Ryan Hall (04:07.260)

This show is also sponsored by Babbel,

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They offer 14 languages, including Spanish, French,

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Ryan Hall (04:24.180)

Let me read a few lines from a Russian song

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by Vladimir Vysotsky called

Ryan Hall (04:28.440)

Anna Bula V Parishe.

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You'll start to understand if you sign up to Babbel.

Ryan Hall (04:33.280)

The song always made me smile,

Lex Fridman (04:46.880)

because it resonates with my own life.

Ryan Hall (04:48.960)

It translates loosely to she's been to Paris.

Lex Fridman (04:52.480)

Paris for a Russian, I suppose, symbolizing a fancy life

Lex Fridman (04:55.920)

and that the guy can never quite fit into that kind of life.

Lex Fridman (04:58.880)

Expensive things, nice restaurants, cars, all that.

Ryan Hall (05:02.040)

I was thinking about what song's equivalent in English,

Lex Fridman (05:04.840)

maybe Uptown Girl by Billy Joe is similar in spirit,

Lex Fridman (05:08.760)

but very different in style.

Lex Fridman (05:10.260)

I just watched the video on YouTube for Uptown Girl

Lex Fridman (05:13.700)

and it's basically Billy Joe dressed up as a mechanic,

Lex Fridman (05:18.080)

but dancing in a way that I'm pretty sure

Ryan Hall (05:20.220)

no mechanic has ever danced,

Lex Fridman (05:22.520)

turning the old cringe factor up to 11.

Ryan Hall (05:25.280)

Anyway, I always felt like I didn't really fit in

Lex Fridman (05:27.680)

with the fancy people and that's what this song represents.

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This show is presented by the great, the powerful,

Ryan Hall (05:39.980)

the OG sponsor named unofficially

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after one of my favorite musicians,

Ryan Hall (05:43.920)

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and are teaming with ideas for cool contests,

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giveaways and all that kind of stuff.

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I've been thinking of doing some kind of a little contest

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and giving away 42 bucks to a bunch of people who win.

Lex Fridman (06:07.720)

It's not so much about the money,

Lex Fridman (06:08.980)

but the glory and a delicious taste of victory.

Lex Fridman (06:13.500)

If you have ideas for a contest, let me know.

Ryan Hall (06:15.960)

I was thinking of something like asking people

Lex Fridman (06:17.880)

to submit funny, inspiring photos or videos or audio

Ryan Hall (06:21.280)

of using Cash App or any of the sponsors of this podcast,

Lex Fridman (06:25.040)

really, or maybe even just funny things related

Ryan Hall (06:27.860)

to the podcast, like different weird places

Lex Fridman (06:30.640)

you might be watching or listening to me right now.

Ryan Hall (06:34.120)

I'm pretty sure there's somebody out there right now

Lex Fridman (06:37.020)

sitting in a hot tub with some wine watching me say this.

Ryan Hall (06:41.120)

I salute you, sir or madam.

Lex Fridman (06:44.120)

I may be opening up some floodgates I deeply regret later,

Lex Fridman (06:47.800)

so please make sure you're wearing clothes

Lex Fridman (06:50.040)

and whatever you sent me.

Ryan Hall (06:51.360)

There'll be no naked people in the hot tub

Lex Fridman (06:54.300)

as part of this podcast.

Ryan Hall (06:56.180)

I have integrity and standards.

Lex Fridman (06:59.880)

Let me know in the comments what ideas

Ryan Hall (07:01.280)

for contests you might have.

Lex Fridman (07:02.600)

Again, if you get Cash App from the App Store or Google Play

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and use the code LexPodcast, you get $10,

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and Cash App will also donate $10 to FIRST,

Ryan Hall (07:11.440)

an organization that is helping to advance robotics

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and STEM education for young people around the world.

Lex Fridman (07:17.880)

And now, here's my conversation with Ryan Hall.

Lex Fridman (07:22.440)

Who, in your view, is the greatest warrior in history?

Lex Fridman (07:25.600)

Ancient or modern?

Lex Fridman (07:27.120)

That's a tough question, and again,

Ryan Hall (07:28.880)

I'm no historian by any measure,

Lex Fridman (07:31.480)

so I'll probably do the worst.

Lex Fridman (07:32.920)

It's like, what are your best bands ever?

Lex Fridman (07:34.120)

I'm like, Metallica, and you know, so I'll pick the...

Ryan Hall (07:37.680)

Metallica just came out with a new album,

Lex Fridman (07:39.160)

by the way, with an entire orchestra.

Ryan Hall (07:41.720)

That's kind of cool.

Lex Fridman (07:42.560)

Yeah. That's important.

Ryan Hall (07:43.380)

Metallica will always be one of the greatest.

Lex Fridman (07:45.400)

Yeah, that's right.

Lex Fridman (07:46.240)

So I agree with you.

Lex Fridman (07:47.080)

They were a bad example.

Ryan Hall (07:47.900)

They were a well known, yet awesome band.

Lex Fridman (07:49.000)

Let me say it's like Nickelback or something like that.

Ryan Hall (07:50.960)

I mean, that feels cheap

Lex Fridman (07:52.160)

because everyone makes fun of Nickelback.

Ryan Hall (07:53.320)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (07:54.160)

I guess it depends on how you want to define warrior.

Ryan Hall (07:56.800)

Something that I think about

Lex Fridman (07:58.120)

when it comes to trying to evaluate

Ryan Hall (08:00.440)

various people or situations

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or things that I've read about or heard about

Ryan Hall (08:04.280)

are the circumstances that they were involved in

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because I think a lot of times

Ryan Hall (08:09.440)

it's easy to look at the outcomes,

Lex Fridman (08:11.040)

and obviously we live in an outcome driven world

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and outcomes do matter,

Lex Fridman (08:14.600)

but at the same time, you look at,

Ryan Hall (08:18.680)

let's say what Cuba's been able to pull off

Lex Fridman (08:20.740)

from a combat sports perspective, it's staggering.

Ryan Hall (08:23.720)

The amount of successful Olympic level competitors

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they have in wrestling, boxing, judo.

Ryan Hall (08:29.920)

I mean, they're a tiny little island

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with no money and no people.

Ryan Hall (08:32.680)

That's shocking.

Lex Fridman (08:33.760)

You know, when you think about the Olympics

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and the United States doing well,

Lex Fridman (08:36.800)

of course we should do well.

Ryan Hall (08:37.800)

I mean, Russia should do well.

Lex Fridman (08:39.060)

China should do well.

Ryan Hall (08:40.560)

India should do better than they do, honestly.

Lex Fridman (08:42.800)

Obviously it means like they're not into it as much

Ryan Hall (08:44.520)

or at least certain sports

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because they have the resources people wise.

Lex Fridman (08:48.000)

So talent's not going to be an issue.

Lex Fridman (08:49.940)

So there's something to like

Ryan Hall (08:51.240)

where the starting point is.

Lex Fridman (08:53.960)

Like that's the argument with like,

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why people say Maradona,

Lex Fridman (08:57.760)

I don't know if you're into soccer, okay.

Ryan Hall (09:00.700)

They say Maradona is better than Messi

Lex Fridman (09:03.140)

because he basically carried the team

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and won the World Cup with a team

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that wouldn't otherwise win the World Cup.

Lex Fridman (09:09.040)

And then Messi was only successful in Barcelona

Lex Fridman (09:12.960)

because he has like superstars,

Ryan Hall (09:15.680)

he's playing with other superstars.

Lex Fridman (09:17.360)

Right.

Ryan Hall (09:18.180)

Yeah, that's fair to say.

Lex Fridman (09:19.320)

I mean, like you're not,

Ryan Hall (09:20.360)

there's a lot of factors that go into,

Lex Fridman (09:21.680)

let's say winning a soccer game.

Lex Fridman (09:23.320)

And obviously Barcelona,

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particularly for various points in time

Ryan Hall (09:26.400)

had a ridiculous all star squad of world class players.

Lex Fridman (09:29.680)

But let's say for instance,

Ryan Hall (09:32.040)

maybe they didn't have the creative players in Argentina.

Lex Fridman (09:34.140)

They needed to get the ball up to Messi.

Ryan Hall (09:36.160)

They didn't have like the NES

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and again the backing there in the midfield.

Lex Fridman (09:41.200)

But because obviously Argentina's always had

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ridiculous attacking players,

Ryan Hall (09:45.280)

like even alongside Messi,

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but they're like the three killers up front

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and then a little less behind.

Lex Fridman (09:50.680)

So it's interesting you say that

Ryan Hall (09:52.960)

depends how you define warrior

Lex Fridman (09:54.200)

because you can probably take like

Ryan Hall (09:55.960)

some of the civil rights leaders,

Lex Fridman (09:57.760)

you can go into that direction,

Ryan Hall (09:59.160)

like leaders in general.

Lex Fridman (10:00.440)

But if we just look at like

Ryan Hall (10:01.720)

the greatest martial artists in history in that direction,

Lex Fridman (10:04.840)

do you have somebody in mind?

Ryan Hall (10:05.720)

I would say at least three that pop into my head

Lex Fridman (10:08.360)

and would be Hannibal, Alexander the Great,

Lex Fridman (10:12.960)

and then maybe Miyamoto Musashi,

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the two commanders and then one guy.

Lex Fridman (10:18.560)

But so it's interesting.

Lex Fridman (10:21.280)

And then again, you mentioned warriors

Ryan Hall (10:22.760)

being able to make a lot out of a little.

Lex Fridman (10:25.400)

Musashi's famous for winning duels

Ryan Hall (10:27.960)

that were oftentimes one on one.

Lex Fridman (10:31.120)

The Alexander and Hannibal were military commanders

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and one of them faced Rome.

Lex Fridman (10:36.760)

And that was an interesting thing.

Ryan Hall (10:38.280)

Oftentimes coming up with novel tactics,

Lex Fridman (10:40.600)

different strategies, sometimes under resourced,

Ryan Hall (10:43.960)

having to do novel and crazy things,

Lex Fridman (10:45.520)

there's skin in the game.

Ryan Hall (10:46.760)

That's an interesting thing too.

Lex Fridman (10:47.840)

I think a lot of times it's,

Ryan Hall (10:49.840)

if you're playing a video game,

Lex Fridman (10:50.800)

I don't think you can be a warrior

Ryan Hall (10:51.920)

because there's no skin in the game.

Lex Fridman (10:53.760)

You get hurt, you lose, that's a bummer.

Ryan Hall (10:56.000)

It stings a little bit,

Lex Fridman (10:56.840)

maybe it makes you feel slightly disappointed,

Lex Fridman (10:58.800)

but Musashi loses, he loses.

Lex Fridman (11:02.800)

Hannibal loses, he loses.

Ryan Hall (11:04.160)

Alexander loses, he loses.

Lex Fridman (11:05.360)

And they lose, I guess the people around them lose.

Lex Fridman (11:08.080)

So that's almost like you could use,

Lex Fridman (11:10.720)

even from a combat sports perspective, Muhammad Ali,

Ryan Hall (11:13.280)

I mean, you consider also their quality of opposition.

Lex Fridman (11:15.800)

Musashi was fighting high quality opposition.

Ryan Hall (11:17.920)

Obviously Hannibal and Alexander, particularly Hannibal,

Lex Fridman (11:20.320)

were fighting unbelievable opposition.

Ryan Hall (11:22.280)

Muhammad Ali fought phenomenal opposition,

Lex Fridman (11:25.200)

but he had skin in the game both in the ring and out.

Lex Fridman (11:27.240)

And that actually meshes with, as you mentioned,

Lex Fridman (11:29.320)

like a civil rights type of situation

Ryan Hall (11:31.320)

where you are under resourced,

Lex Fridman (11:32.960)

you're pushing the stone uphill.

Lex Fridman (11:35.000)

And that was a neat thing I think about Muhammad Ali

Lex Fridman (11:37.600)

was how much personal conviction the man had to have

Ryan Hall (11:41.040)

in order to pull off what he was able to pull off

Lex Fridman (11:42.560)

both in and outside of the ring.

Lex Fridman (11:44.640)

And that reminds me of, again,

Lex Fridman (11:46.680)

some of the other great leaders

Ryan Hall (11:47.600)

or great fighters throughout history.

Lex Fridman (11:48.880)

So what do you make of the kind of very difficult idea

Ryan Hall (11:53.400)

that some of these conquerors like Alexander the Great

Lex Fridman (11:56.640)

and somebody that, if you listen to Hardcore History,

Ryan Hall (12:00.920)

oh, Dan Carlin, who apparently Elon Musk

Lex Fridman (12:04.000)

is also a big fan of, is the Genghis Khan episode.

Ryan Hall (12:07.420)

A large percent of the world can call Genghis Khan

Lex Fridman (12:18.580)

an ancestor.

Lex Fridman (12:20.140)

So the difficult truth is about some of these conquerors

Lex Fridman (12:24.220)

is that there's a lot of murder and rape and pillage

Lex Fridman (12:28.900)

and stealing of resources and all that kind of stuff.

Lex Fridman (12:32.220)

And yet they're often remembered as quite honorable.

Ryan Hall (12:37.100)

I mean, in the case of Genghis Khan,

Lex Fridman (12:38.580)

there's a lot of people who argue,

Ryan Hall (12:39.980)

if you look at historically the way it's described

Lex Fridman (12:44.100)

in full context, is he was ultimately,

Ryan Hall (12:49.220)

given the time, he was a liberator.

Lex Fridman (12:52.300)

He was a progressive, I should say.

Ryan Hall (12:57.260)

In terms of the violence and the atrocities he committed,

Lex Fridman (13:02.260)

he, at least in the stories, has always provided the option

Ryan Hall (13:06.620)

of not to do that.

Lex Fridman (13:07.820)

It's only if you resist, do,

Lex Fridman (13:10.340)

so you basically have the option,

Lex Fridman (13:11.380)

do you wanna join us or do you want to die?

Lex Fridman (13:14.660)

And die horribly.

Lex Fridman (13:17.940)

That's the progressive sort of,

Ryan Hall (13:19.820)

that's the Bernie Sanders of the era.

Lex Fridman (13:21.540)

Nice.

Lex Fridman (13:22.500)

So what do you make of that?

Lex Fridman (13:24.260)

That there's so much of these great conquerors,

Ryan Hall (13:27.620)

there's so much murder that to us now would just seem insane.

Lex Fridman (13:33.300)

It's funny you mention it.

Ryan Hall (13:34.580)

I think that maybe it's a human nature thing

Lex Fridman (13:37.220)

that we want to, or maybe a misunderstanding thing

Ryan Hall (13:40.980)

that we want to cast all of our characters and ourselves

Lex Fridman (13:44.260)

maybe as entirely good or as entirely negative

Ryan Hall (13:47.540)

when I guess the phrase or the saying,

Lex Fridman (13:50.700)

one man's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist,

Ryan Hall (13:54.140)

is accurate.

Lex Fridman (13:55.420)

And a lot of times I think you can understand

Ryan Hall (13:57.700)

as long as you're able to look

Lex Fridman (13:59.460)

from various people's perspective.

Ryan Hall (14:00.780)

Like if you look at the TV show, The Wire,

Lex Fridman (14:03.220)

which was obviously widely, everybody loves The Wire.

Ryan Hall (14:06.500)

I thought that there were everyone,

Lex Fridman (14:08.020)

I'm not saying anything that's not been said before,

Ryan Hall (14:10.060)

compelling characters from all angles,

Lex Fridman (14:11.420)

whether you like the character, dislike the character,

Ryan Hall (14:13.660)

you were able to understand the motivations of people

Lex Fridman (14:16.140)

doing various things.

Ryan Hall (14:17.300)

Even if they did wrongly, they did rightly.

Lex Fridman (14:20.180)

We want to cast all of the demons throughout history

Ryan Hall (14:23.740)

as completely inhuman when I think that makes it difficult

Lex Fridman (14:27.060)

for us to understand them.

Lex Fridman (14:27.980)

And we want to look back at the people

Lex Fridman (14:30.580)

that we think of as great and entirely great.

Lex Fridman (14:33.940)

And I think that we're experiencing the problems with this

Lex Fridman (14:37.220)

even right now, socially and politically

Ryan Hall (14:38.820)

as we're trying to look back and decide

Lex Fridman (14:40.180)

the people we thought were good or not good

Ryan Hall (14:41.620)

or people we thought were bad are now good

Lex Fridman (14:43.420)

rather than going, hey, there's good and bad to all things.

Lex Fridman (14:46.580)

And there are, as you mentioned, the Genghis Khan thing,

Lex Fridman (14:49.780)

you don't have to fight back.

Ryan Hall (14:52.220)

You do, I respect you for it,

Lex Fridman (14:53.580)

but then we're gonna have a conflict

Lex Fridman (14:54.900)

and then we'll see what happens.

Lex Fridman (14:56.300)

And if you lose, you're gonna be sorry that you did

Ryan Hall (14:58.020)

because I have to make it that way.

Lex Fridman (14:59.780)

If I want to continue utilizing this kind of MO

Ryan Hall (15:02.540)

because I need to discourage the next guy

Lex Fridman (15:05.300)

from doing what you're doing right now.

Lex Fridman (15:07.300)

And ultimately though, I guess that's an interesting thing.

Lex Fridman (15:10.220)

Imagine you put every single person

Ryan Hall (15:11.860)

on planet earth in a cage, crime drops, all sorts.

Lex Fridman (15:16.660)

There are certain positives to that.

Lex Fridman (15:18.580)

And it's just, things are as they are, it's difficult,

Lex Fridman (15:23.140)

but that is ultimately more the law of the jungle.

Lex Fridman (15:25.140)

And I think that we're able to supersede some of that now

Lex Fridman (15:27.900)

in modern times and I think we're fortunate.

Lex Fridman (15:30.180)

But as you mentioned, we look back and say,

Lex Fridman (15:32.180)

oh, this is horrible.

Ryan Hall (15:33.500)

Say, no, that just is what it is.

Lex Fridman (15:35.620)

That's how life is at a base level.

Lex Fridman (15:37.980)

And again, if you're a lion and I'm a gazelle,

Lex Fridman (15:40.420)

I don't really like it very much,

Lex Fridman (15:42.380)

but we don't call the lion the bad guy.

Lex Fridman (15:44.860)

We don't sanctify the gazelle or the other way around.

Lex Fridman (15:47.780)

So it's just, it's interesting when you pull back

Lex Fridman (15:50.100)

some of the controls that we put on our behavior

Lex Fridman (15:53.020)

and in modern life,

Lex Fridman (15:54.500)

which I think are generally speaking positive,

Ryan Hall (15:56.940)

we get down to how things often are.

Lex Fridman (15:59.140)

And at the same time, we could,

Ryan Hall (16:02.860)

modern life was built by people like Genghis Khan.

Lex Fridman (16:06.460)

So then you get down to the ends justifying the means.

Ryan Hall (16:09.540)

It's a tough question.

Lex Fridman (16:10.380)

These aren't things with easy answers,

Ryan Hall (16:11.740)

or at least if they are, I certainly don't have the smarts

Lex Fridman (16:14.020)

to figure out the answers to them, but it's difficult.

Ryan Hall (16:18.060)

I would just say people in the world are complicated

Lex Fridman (16:20.140)

and layered and depending upon which side of the line

Ryan Hall (16:22.140)

you're standing on at various times,

Lex Fridman (16:23.940)

you may like or dislike someone,

Lex Fridman (16:26.500)

but I can't remember whose idea it was,

Lex Fridman (16:30.300)

this is killing me, but it's the veil of ignorance,

Ryan Hall (16:31.900)

I guess, the philosophical idea of the veil of ignorance

Lex Fridman (16:36.540)

where I go, is sticking everyone in the cage

Lex Fridman (16:39.340)

the right thing to do?

Lex Fridman (16:41.100)

Or everyone but me, and I say, well, no, why?

Ryan Hall (16:43.460)

Well, it would make my life easier

Lex Fridman (16:44.740)

if I just went over and took all of your stuff

Ryan Hall (16:46.140)

as long as you couldn't stop me.

Lex Fridman (16:47.780)

I mean, of course that's a great idea.

Ryan Hall (16:48.820)

That's what everyone does in every video game.

Lex Fridman (16:50.500)

But in Skyrim, you steal stuff when people aren't around.

Lex Fridman (16:53.460)

But ultimately you go, well,

Lex Fridman (16:56.140)

this isn't the right thing to do

Ryan Hall (16:57.220)

because if I were on the other side of it,

Lex Fridman (16:59.020)

I would not appreciate it.

Ryan Hall (17:00.860)

It's inherently not a good thing to do.

Lex Fridman (17:02.660)

I'm only doing it because I think I'm gonna win.

Lex Fridman (17:04.820)

And that's a fine way to be,

Lex Fridman (17:06.580)

but you don't have the white hat on, I guess I would say.

Lex Fridman (17:08.860)

So I think without those philosophical underpinnings

Lex Fridman (17:12.340)

to rein us in, I guess, morally speaking,

Ryan Hall (17:15.300)

it's very difficult to say what's right or wrong.

Lex Fridman (17:17.580)

And you'd say certain actions have a reaction,

Ryan Hall (17:20.220)

almost like a physics sense.

Lex Fridman (17:21.860)

If you kill everyone in your way

Ryan Hall (17:24.140)

for as long as you're able to, your life will be easier.

Lex Fridman (17:27.780)

I mean, you're setting the table for someone

Ryan Hall (17:29.700)

doing the same to you when you're no longer the tough guy,

Lex Fridman (17:31.580)

but it is what it is.

Ryan Hall (17:32.860)

Yeah, if you look at like the Instagram channel,

Lex Fridman (17:35.860)

nature is metal, it hurts my heart to watch,

Ryan Hall (17:39.780)

to remind me, a comfortable descendant of ape,

Lex Fridman (17:44.540)

how vicious nature is, just unapologetically, just,

Ryan Hall (17:52.460)

I mean, there's a process to it where the bad guy always wins.

Lex Fridman (17:58.540)

The violence is the solution to most problems,

Ryan Hall (18:04.220)

or the flip side of that running away from violence

Lex Fridman (18:07.500)

is the solution depending on your skillset.

Lex Fridman (18:10.140)

And it's funny to think of us humans

Lex Fridman (18:12.620)

with our extra little piece of brain

Ryan Hall (18:15.020)

that we're somehow trying to figure out,

Lex Fridman (18:17.180)

like you said, in a philosophical way,

Lex Fridman (18:18.700)

how to supersede that, how to like move past the viciousness,

Lex Fridman (18:23.020)

the cruelty, just the cold exchange of nature.

Lex Fridman (18:30.220)

But perhaps it's not so, maybe that is nature,

Lex Fridman (18:33.580)

maybe that's the way of life, maybe we're trying too hard to,

Ryan Hall (18:38.460)

we're being too egotistical and thinking we're somehow

Lex Fridman (18:43.340)

separate from nature, we're somehow distant

Ryan Hall (18:45.420)

from that very thing.

Lex Fridman (18:46.460)

I couldn't agree with you more.

Ryan Hall (18:47.580)

In fact, I think actually Orson Scott Card,

Lex Fridman (18:49.580)

who's the writer of a great book called Ender's Game,

Ryan Hall (18:53.820)

this was a statement that the main character,

Lex Fridman (18:56.540)

Ender, made in the book.

Ryan Hall (18:58.380)

His brother was brilliant.

Lex Fridman (19:00.300)

His brother was like kind of sociopathic brilliant kid

Ryan Hall (19:04.220)

that ended up kicked out of the school

Lex Fridman (19:05.740)

that they were all into for Battle Commander.

Ryan Hall (19:07.980)

Dealing with his brother taught him that ultimately strength,

Lex Fridman (19:10.700)

courage, the ability to do violence

Ryan Hall (19:12.860)

for all the good and the bad of that

Lex Fridman (19:14.300)

is one of the fundamental most important things

Ryan Hall (19:16.860)

to be able to do in life,

Lex Fridman (19:17.820)

because if you can't cause destruction,

Ryan Hall (19:19.420)

if you can't cause pain,

Lex Fridman (19:20.780)

you will be forever subject to those who can.

Lex Fridman (19:23.020)

And I think that you mentioned egotism.

Lex Fridman (19:25.020)

I think that that's a disease

Ryan Hall (19:26.540)

that could obviously strike any of us,

Lex Fridman (19:28.300)

but it's something that we're looking at now.

Ryan Hall (19:29.660)

We're, I think we should be unbelievably thankful

Lex Fridman (19:33.100)

as people that live in the world that we do

Ryan Hall (19:35.260)

that we can walk down the street

Lex Fridman (19:36.860)

without having to worry that I'm like,

Ryan Hall (19:38.620)

well, don't worry that that's six foot six,

Lex Fridman (19:40.460)

270 pound person over there is just gonna leave me alone.

Lex Fridman (19:43.660)

And I have a Rolex on, but whatever, I'll be fine.

Lex Fridman (19:45.900)

Because that person is deciding to leave me alone

Ryan Hall (19:47.900)

because we've all agreed to live in this relatively sane

Lex Fridman (19:51.740)

and or constrained society because it benefits all of us.

Lex Fridman (19:54.780)

And we're doing it because of a philosophical underpinning,

Lex Fridman (19:57.820)

not because nature dictates it be that way,

Ryan Hall (19:59.660)

because nature dictates it go in a very,

Lex Fridman (1:00:01.820)

because I understand that they're on a,

Ryan Hall (1:00:04.620)

it's a, we're all on a path where it's all,

Lex Fridman (1:00:07.580)

again, an iterative process of eventual self expression,

Lex Fridman (1:00:10.580)

but I think that's one of the things

Lex Fridman (1:00:11.620)

that we see having trouble when we see tribalism,

Ryan Hall (1:00:15.180)

which, I mean, racism, expression of that,

Lex Fridman (1:00:17.420)

political affiliation, expression of that,

Ryan Hall (1:00:19.260)

all of these things that can go

Lex Fridman (1:00:20.500)

in really uncomfortable directions.

Ryan Hall (1:00:21.980)

People are looking for,

Lex Fridman (1:00:23.380)

hey, where do I plant my feet over here?

Lex Fridman (1:00:24.740)

Where's the thing that I know is right?

Lex Fridman (1:00:26.860)

And we can all agree on the following.

Lex Fridman (1:00:29.100)

And I think that we see that in martial arts.

Lex Fridman (1:00:31.180)

We're like, oh, I do this style, I do that style,

Ryan Hall (1:00:33.140)

I do that style.

Lex Fridman (1:00:33.980)

It's like, hey, man, we're all just pushing forward

Ryan Hall (1:00:35.820)

in a certain direction here, trying to do our best.

Lex Fridman (1:00:37.460)

And I understand why you feel the way you do.

Ryan Hall (1:00:38.700)

I may have felt like that at one point too,

Lex Fridman (1:00:40.660)

but I'm just trying to learn and understand

Ryan Hall (1:00:44.300)

versus I've already acquired enough knowledge,

Lex Fridman (1:00:47.140)

let me cross my arms and start to look

Ryan Hall (1:00:49.180)

who's fucking up around here.

Lex Fridman (1:00:50.700)

And I think that that's an, it's an interesting trap

Ryan Hall (1:00:55.060)

that I think is very human trap to fall into,

Lex Fridman (1:00:57.100)

but it definitely happens early on.

Lex Fridman (1:00:58.660)

It's, I mean, it's a joke in the jiu jitsu world, right?

Lex Fridman (1:01:00.340)

Like, oh, the blue belt that knows everything.

Ryan Hall (1:01:02.180)

Well, initially it's like, what, I know nothing

Lex Fridman (1:01:03.780)

and I at least think I know nothing.

Ryan Hall (1:01:05.380)

Then I'd learn a little bit and I think it's a lot bit.

Lex Fridman (1:01:07.700)

And then, you know, the more you learn,

Ryan Hall (1:01:09.020)

the more you go like, I don't even know what I'm doing.

Lex Fridman (1:01:11.140)

Yeah, that's exactly right.

Ryan Hall (1:01:13.020)

We kind of talked about it a little bit,

Lex Fridman (1:01:14.940)

but once again, a lot of people that listen to this

Ryan Hall (1:01:18.140)

have never been on the mat, have never tried jiu jitsu,

Lex Fridman (1:01:20.820)

but are really curious about it.

Ryan Hall (1:01:23.060)

Everybody at all positions, like I think, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:01:25.740)

most kids are not doing jiu jitsu.

Ryan Hall (1:01:27.660)

Andrew Yang is like, they're all, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:01:30.380)

the world is curious.

Ryan Hall (1:01:31.620)

It's a, it's a nice, it seems to be a nice methodology

Lex Fridman (1:01:36.020)

by which to humble your ego,

Ryan Hall (1:01:38.060)

which to grow intellectually and physically.

Lex Fridman (1:01:39.980)

So people are curious about it.

Lex Fridman (1:01:42.140)

So the natural question is if they're curious about it,

Lex Fridman (1:01:44.900)

how would you recommend they get started?

Ryan Hall (1:01:47.180)

Maybe like, what do you recommend the first day,

Lex Fridman (1:01:51.140)

week, month, year, first couple of years look like?

Ryan Hall (1:01:54.540)

Like, how do you ease into it

Lex Fridman (1:01:56.300)

and make sure that it's a positive experience

Lex Fridman (1:01:59.020)

and you progress in the most optimal and positive way?

Lex Fridman (1:02:03.460)

The first thing you can do is simply ask yourself why,

Lex Fridman (1:02:07.020)

why you want to be involved.

Lex Fridman (1:02:08.220)

You know, I remember the first day that I walked into

Ryan Hall (1:02:10.160)

Ronin Athletics in New York City

Lex Fridman (1:02:12.260)

to train under Godfather of my son now,

Ryan Hall (1:02:14.640)

Christian Montes, and I didn't know

Lex Fridman (1:02:18.020)

what I was getting myself into.

Ryan Hall (1:02:19.220)

I played baseball through high school

Lex Fridman (1:02:21.120)

and I wanted, I was at Manhattan College in the Bronx

Lex Fridman (1:02:24.620)

and I wanted to go and learn martial arts

Lex Fridman (1:02:27.340)

because it was always something that was interesting to me,

Lex Fridman (1:02:29.540)

but it was never something that I knew was accessible

Lex Fridman (1:02:33.080)

and it definitely wasn't really around

Ryan Hall (1:02:34.900)

in Northern Virginia where I grew up,

Lex Fridman (1:02:36.740)

whereas then you stick yourself in Manhattan

Lex Fridman (1:02:38.800)

and there's stuff everywhere.

Lex Fridman (1:02:40.080)

So anyway, I guess I didn't know what to expect.

Ryan Hall (1:02:43.260)

I didn't know if I was going to get beat up,

Lex Fridman (1:02:45.180)

if people were going to be nice,

Ryan Hall (1:02:46.180)

if people were not going to be nice,

Lex Fridman (1:02:48.300)

but what I began with was, I think, expectation management.

Lex Fridman (1:02:52.940)

And I think that that's something that I would,

Lex Fridman (1:02:56.860)

that'd be the first thing that I would start

Ryan Hall (1:02:58.500)

is almost imagining what is it that I'm getting myself into

Lex Fridman (1:03:01.580)

because I love the martial arts.

Ryan Hall (1:03:03.860)

The martial arts has given me everything in life

Lex Fridman (1:03:05.440)

and I'm so thankful I wouldn't be sitting here

Ryan Hall (1:03:08.380)

without that experience, that journey.

Lex Fridman (1:03:11.220)

The people that I've met, the places that I've gone,

Ryan Hall (1:03:12.900)

I could never, ever have ever imagined.

Lex Fridman (1:03:17.060)

And I'm just unbelievably thankful for that.

Lex Fridman (1:03:19.020)

But I think that the thing that helped me most of all

Lex Fridman (1:03:24.700)

was starting with going,

Ryan Hall (1:03:26.540)

my mom said something to me one time and she said,

Lex Fridman (1:03:29.300)

there's two types of people in various situations.

Ryan Hall (1:03:31.700)

There's why and there's why not.

Lex Fridman (1:03:33.440)

And it's understandable to have questions, concerns,

Ryan Hall (1:03:36.100)

things like that.

Lex Fridman (1:03:37.660)

But maybe sometimes it's a little bit easier

Ryan Hall (1:03:39.380)

when you're younger to just trust people

Lex Fridman (1:03:41.960)

or just say, I don't know, you know.

Lex Fridman (1:03:44.140)

But we go, hey, you wanna climb that rock?

Lex Fridman (1:03:46.620)

I'm like, yeah, why not?

Ryan Hall (1:03:47.440)

Let's go.

Lex Fridman (1:03:48.280)

Hey, you wanna jump in that river?

Lex Fridman (1:03:49.120)

Yeah, why not?

Lex Fridman (1:03:49.960)

Sure.

Ryan Hall (1:03:50.780)

Versus if I have to reason my way into everything,

Lex Fridman (1:03:53.180)

if I have to be talked into everything,

Ryan Hall (1:03:55.060)

a lot of times I'll talk myself out of it.

Lex Fridman (1:03:56.740)

And I think that a lot of times

Ryan Hall (1:03:57.780)

this is the thinker's disease.

Lex Fridman (1:03:59.740)

You wanna figure out what's gonna happen

Lex Fridman (1:04:01.480)

and what you should expect to have happen

Lex Fridman (1:04:03.660)

before you get involved versus going,

Ryan Hall (1:04:06.460)

using the old Bruce Lee saying again,

Lex Fridman (1:04:08.060)

it's like no amount of thinking or training

Ryan Hall (1:04:09.700)

on the side of the river will teach you how to swim.

Lex Fridman (1:04:12.300)

You have to jump in.

Lex Fridman (1:04:13.620)

And there are risks associated with that.

Lex Fridman (1:04:15.400)

And I guess psychological are usually the biggest ones.

Ryan Hall (1:04:19.620)

That's the biggest hurdle.

Lex Fridman (1:04:20.700)

And physical.

Lex Fridman (1:04:22.720)

But the biggest thing that I guess I would suggest

Lex Fridman (1:04:25.160)

to anyone to say, well, why do you wanna do this?

Ryan Hall (1:04:26.540)

You're like, well, I wanna challenge myself.

Lex Fridman (1:04:28.180)

I wanna learn, I would like to learn to fight.

Ryan Hall (1:04:30.280)

I wanted to learn to fight so that I could protect myself.

Lex Fridman (1:04:32.440)

And if anything else, other people,

Ryan Hall (1:04:33.940)

if only within arms reach.

Lex Fridman (1:04:35.420)

I perceived that if I had some small degree of power,

Ryan Hall (1:04:39.980)

I generally wouldn't use it.

Lex Fridman (1:04:41.460)

Which is why I was like, yeah, I'll give it a try.

Ryan Hall (1:04:42.860)

I'll try to be reasonable.

Lex Fridman (1:04:43.840)

And hopefully if I make a mistake,

Ryan Hall (1:04:45.180)

I'll apologize to people.

Lex Fridman (1:04:46.180)

But basically I said, yeah, I'd like to have that.

Lex Fridman (1:04:49.120)

And I wanna, I know this is gonna be challenging

Lex Fridman (1:04:52.180)

and we'll see what happens.

Lex Fridman (1:04:54.100)

And that means that getting beat up

Lex Fridman (1:04:55.620)

and I didn't get like hurt, but getting roughed up,

Ryan Hall (1:04:57.780)

getting my arm bent this way or that way, getting choked.

Lex Fridman (1:05:00.520)

I was like, well, this is all supposed to happen.

Ryan Hall (1:05:01.820)

That's no big deal.

Lex Fridman (1:05:02.940)

It would be like going and joining the army

Ryan Hall (1:05:04.740)

during peacetime and then going,

Lex Fridman (1:05:06.900)

oh, I'm just doing this for college education.

Ryan Hall (1:05:08.580)

You know, like, okay, that's cool, man.

Lex Fridman (1:05:09.820)

And then all of a sudden war breaks out

Lex Fridman (1:05:11.560)

and they wanna send me somewhere.

Lex Fridman (1:05:12.500)

And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Ryan Hall (1:05:13.580)

I didn't sign up for that.

Lex Fridman (1:05:15.020)

Actually you did, whether you realize it or not.

Ryan Hall (1:05:17.380)

You may not have thought that you did, but you did.

Lex Fridman (1:05:19.820)

So getting your mind right and just going,

Lex Fridman (1:05:22.880)

what are my expectations for this activity?

Lex Fridman (1:05:24.580)

What is it that I'm looking to do?

Lex Fridman (1:05:25.940)

And of course, you know, you're going into a gym,

Lex Fridman (1:05:28.660)

you're going into a place that you don't know people,

Ryan Hall (1:05:30.460)

you probably don't know people

Lex Fridman (1:05:31.660)

and you don't know the coach.

Lex Fridman (1:05:32.580)

And even if you do wanna, hey, how you doing?

Lex Fridman (1:05:34.100)

Shake your hand, type of level.

Ryan Hall (1:05:35.660)

You know, 95% of my students don't know me.

Lex Fridman (1:05:38.180)

Not really, you know, I'll try to be polite

Lex Fridman (1:05:39.540)

and not annoy them too much,

Lex Fridman (1:05:40.580)

but they don't know me and I don't know them.

Ryan Hall (1:05:43.100)

I understand if they don't trust me,

Lex Fridman (1:05:45.260)

I wouldn't trust, trust me either if I were them.

Lex Fridman (1:05:48.140)

But at the same time, someone has to take that leap.

Lex Fridman (1:05:50.820)

And one of the things that I've noticed

Ryan Hall (1:05:52.680)

as a martial arts instructor,

Lex Fridman (1:05:53.820)

that's the biggest struggle with dealing with adults,

Ryan Hall (1:05:56.940)

which is why a lot of people like to teach kids

Lex Fridman (1:05:58.660)

is because kids don't ask, don't argue.

Ryan Hall (1:06:01.020)

Now that also means there's all sorts of pitfalls

Lex Fridman (1:06:04.060)

or that sort of thing, and that can be an issue.

Lex Fridman (1:06:05.860)

But you know, I guess a lot of times people get to a point

Lex Fridman (1:06:08.300)

in their life, you know, in their 20s, early 30s,

Ryan Hall (1:06:10.660)

where now I'm a manager now, I know what I'm doing.

Lex Fridman (1:06:13.380)

No one talks to me like that.

Ryan Hall (1:06:14.860)

First it's like, hey man, you go join bootcamp,

Lex Fridman (1:06:16.460)

I don't care if you are Elon Musk,

Ryan Hall (1:06:17.660)

they're gonna tell you to shut up and do pushups.

Lex Fridman (1:06:19.300)

And that's what's great about it.

Lex Fridman (1:06:21.300)

So you are taking a leap of faith into a world

Lex Fridman (1:06:24.860)

that you're gonna be a tiny fish.

Lex Fridman (1:06:26.460)

And you gotta hope that the people who are guiding you

Lex Fridman (1:06:30.100)

in that journey are gonna have,

Ryan Hall (1:06:32.620)

I can't even say your best interests at heart

Lex Fridman (1:06:34.500)

because they don't even know you,

Lex Fridman (1:06:35.460)

but they'll try to do no harm.

Lex Fridman (1:06:36.860)

And they'll try to help you

Ryan Hall (1:06:37.700)

in the way that they would understand.

Lex Fridman (1:06:39.140)

And I guess that's, for instance,

Ryan Hall (1:06:40.540)

that's what I would try to do with anyone

Lex Fridman (1:06:42.620)

that comes into my gym.

Ryan Hall (1:06:44.340)

I would try to help them in the way

Lex Fridman (1:06:45.700)

that I understand they need as best I can

Lex Fridman (1:06:48.660)

and as safe and reasonable a way as possible,

Lex Fridman (1:06:51.400)

but sometimes in a way that's gonna make them uncomfortable,

Ryan Hall (1:06:53.220)

particularly if physical combat,

Lex Fridman (1:06:55.220)

and it's not something they've done before.

Ryan Hall (1:06:58.240)

If a lot of people go in without even having played,

Lex Fridman (1:07:00.900)

you know, contact sports, and so that can be a big jump.

Lex Fridman (1:07:03.660)

And you have to understand,

Lex Fridman (1:07:04.740)

if that's where you're starting from, no worries,

Lex Fridman (1:07:07.220)

but you're gonna have to kind of work your way to it,

Lex Fridman (1:07:09.260)

and it's gonna be uncomfortable, and that's okay.

Ryan Hall (1:07:12.220)

It's part of the process,

Lex Fridman (1:07:13.200)

and you're gonna have some bumps and bruises,

Lex Fridman (1:07:14.820)

and you're not gonna wanna roll with that guy in the corner

Lex Fridman (1:07:16.660)

because that person's rough, and they beat you up,

Lex Fridman (1:07:18.660)

and they're like, okay, but is this a big hurt

Lex Fridman (1:07:20.580)

or is it a little hurt?

Ryan Hall (1:07:21.820)

If it's a big hurt, okay.

Lex Fridman (1:07:23.300)

If it's a little hurt,

Ryan Hall (1:07:25.300)

need you to center up a little bit.

Lex Fridman (1:07:27.300)

It's such an interesting balance because to find,

Ryan Hall (1:07:30.380)

I think one of the most important things

Lex Fridman (1:07:32.500)

as in anything, I think, in life

Ryan Hall (1:07:34.660)

is the selection of the people that you put around you.

Lex Fridman (1:07:39.440)

I mean, that's true with like getting married.

Ryan Hall (1:07:42.020)

That's true with like if you go to,

Lex Fridman (1:07:44.620)

if people ask me, like graduate students,

Ryan Hall (1:07:46.620)

like your PhD advisor can be the difference.

Lex Fridman (1:07:51.740)

It's everything.

Ryan Hall (1:07:52.740)

It's like you spend five years with somebody,

Lex Fridman (1:07:55.300)

they're going to basically define more impact on you

Ryan Hall (1:07:59.040)

than anybody you marry, anybody you hang out with.

Lex Fridman (1:08:01.500)

It's a huge impact.

Lex Fridman (1:08:02.420)

And the same with the coach selection,

Lex Fridman (1:08:05.260)

which is like the school selection,

Ryan Hall (1:08:08.940)

is it's going to be really important about

Lex Fridman (1:08:11.660)

in terms of like who you select will define how happy,

Ryan Hall (1:08:16.820)

like the trajectory of your growth

Lex Fridman (1:08:18.980)

and how happy you are with the entirety of the experience.

Lex Fridman (1:08:21.140)

And yet, like the flip side of that is,

Lex Fridman (1:08:26.340)

especially if you have an ego,

Ryan Hall (1:08:28.420)

especially if you are the manager

Lex Fridman (1:08:29.900)

that needs to let go of some stuff,

Ryan Hall (1:08:31.300)

you're going to feel like shit

Lex Fridman (1:08:33.380)

with the best kind of coach.

Ryan Hall (1:08:35.820)

That's what you need.

Lex Fridman (1:08:37.540)

But there's a weird balance there to find.

Ryan Hall (1:08:40.540)

Like, I mean, like, and everybody needs a different thing.

Lex Fridman (1:08:43.480)

Like I'm much more, I enjoy being sort of like,

Ryan Hall (1:08:48.540)

it sounds weird, but like I'm, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:08:51.440)

from the wrestling background,

Ryan Hall (1:08:53.300)

I enjoy feeling like crap in the sense like the coach,

Lex Fridman (1:08:58.040)

like getting beat up.

Ryan Hall (1:09:00.220)

I don't actually enjoy it.

Lex Fridman (1:09:01.580)

It's not like some masochistic thing or whatever.

Ryan Hall (1:09:03.740)

It's like, it's the growth.

Lex Fridman (1:09:06.560)

Like I like the anxiety.

Ryan Hall (1:09:08.220)

I like feeling like shit when I go home,

Lex Fridman (1:09:12.820)

like emotionally, physically, it's like, it's growth.

Lex Fridman (1:09:17.380)

It's a sign of growth, right?

Lex Fridman (1:09:18.420)

Like if you're not having to feel those things,

Ryan Hall (1:09:20.240)

you're probably in your comfort zone, which is fine,

Lex Fridman (1:09:22.580)

but that's not your growth zone, right?

Lex Fridman (1:09:24.820)

And everybody has a different threshold for that.

Lex Fridman (1:09:27.780)

And I mean, the beautiful thing about jiu jitsu is like,

Ryan Hall (1:09:31.700)

it's also has like a yoga feel to it.

Lex Fridman (1:09:34.460)

Like you're learning about your body.

Lex Fridman (1:09:36.420)

So depending on the gym and depending on, in fact,

Lex Fridman (1:09:40.000)

the coaches or the people around you within the gym,

Ryan Hall (1:09:42.300)

you can select little groups too, kind of like the people

Lex Fridman (1:09:45.500)

with who you roll, like if you're a smaller person,

Ryan Hall (1:09:48.380)

it doesn't mean you have to go against big people.

Lex Fridman (1:09:50.100)

You can go against the people who like smoke a lot of weed

Lex Fridman (1:09:53.300)

and they're chill, or you can go against like that crazy

Lex Fridman (1:09:56.020)

red blue belt competitor who's like out to destroy everybody.

Lex Fridman (1:09:59.460)

And depending on like what your mindset is,

Lex Fridman (1:10:02.380)

you can kind of select that.

Ryan Hall (1:10:03.860)

It's such a fascinating journey of like,

Lex Fridman (1:10:07.820)

basically self discovery.

Ryan Hall (1:10:09.620)

I couldn't agree with you more.

Lex Fridman (1:10:10.700)

It's, I mean, what you need may change over time, right?

Ryan Hall (1:10:12.900)

Maybe what you needed, what you need today

Lex Fridman (1:10:14.980)

could change six months from now or a year from now.

Lex Fridman (1:10:16.700)

And that's something that I experienced.

Lex Fridman (1:10:18.420)

I'll use my first coach Christian, again,

Ryan Hall (1:10:20.480)

as a great example of someone who I really look up to

Lex Fridman (1:10:22.960)

and respect and someone who helped me a lot.

Ryan Hall (1:10:25.300)

Like at a time when I really needed some guidance

Lex Fridman (1:10:27.500)

and I needed to learn martial arts, but get into,

Ryan Hall (1:10:30.180)

Hensel Gracie's gym was right down the street

Lex Fridman (1:10:32.000)

from where Christian was teaching.

Lex Fridman (1:10:33.620)

And Christian was a blue belt at the time.

Lex Fridman (1:10:35.140)

It was, he was teaching at a place called Fight House,

Ryan Hall (1:10:37.060)

which was this awesome, like, you know, like 90s,

Lex Fridman (1:10:40.380)

early 2000s, you know, warehouse area down

Ryan Hall (1:10:44.180)

on Fashion Avenue in Manhattan,

Lex Fridman (1:10:47.020)

off of like between 7th and 8th.

Lex Fridman (1:10:48.340)

And it was like two basketball courts wide,

Lex Fridman (1:10:50.980)

but like there was the Sambo guys over here.

Ryan Hall (1:10:52.500)

There was the Kali guys over there.

Lex Fridman (1:10:53.660)

There was a Wing Chun over there.

Ryan Hall (1:10:54.500)

There was Jiu Jitsu in the corner.

Lex Fridman (1:10:55.620)

And Hensel's was one of the most famous academies

Ryan Hall (1:10:58.060)

in the world at that time, still is.

Lex Fridman (1:10:59.700)

And I just didn't know what Hensel Gracie was.

Lex Fridman (1:11:02.260)

And I mean, it's a great gym

Lex Fridman (1:11:04.020)

and it's a fantastic place for people to train.

Lex Fridman (1:11:06.140)

But I think what was right for me at the time was to,

Lex Fridman (1:11:08.820)

I stumbled into, you know, like a two person elevator up

Lex Fridman (1:11:12.580)

and found a place where six people trained at that time.

Lex Fridman (1:11:15.460)

And I had someone that could give me some,

Ryan Hall (1:11:18.780)

like in addition to martial arts advice,

Lex Fridman (1:11:20.460)

like personal guidance.

Lex Fridman (1:11:22.020)

And that made a big difference.

Lex Fridman (1:11:23.600)

And then when initially we would have like competitions

Ryan Hall (1:11:26.300)

or like intra, you know, gym competitions

Lex Fridman (1:11:29.420)

with the Sambo guys, we would compete,

Ryan Hall (1:11:30.660)

we would roll with them.

Lex Fridman (1:11:31.820)

And like, again, it was great

Ryan Hall (1:11:33.100)

because they were just a bunch of like Russian dudes

Lex Fridman (1:11:34.960)

from like Brighton Beach.

Lex Fridman (1:11:35.900)

And they would come down and then we would all fight.

Lex Fridman (1:11:38.380)

And then everyone would train

Lex Fridman (1:11:39.280)

and we'd all drink tea and then go home.

Lex Fridman (1:11:41.060)

And anyway, what was, it was super tough.

Lex Fridman (1:11:45.940)

And they were like, again, just a tough group of people.

Lex Fridman (1:11:47.800)

It was great.

Lex Fridman (1:11:48.640)

And then I remember when I decided

Lex Fridman (1:11:51.340)

after like four or five months,

Ryan Hall (1:11:52.380)

I'm like, man, I really want to try to take this seriously.

Lex Fridman (1:11:54.140)

And I told Christian about that.

Lex Fridman (1:11:55.100)

And he's like, well, hey,

Lex Fridman (1:11:55.940)

I think you need to do the following.

Lex Fridman (1:11:56.820)

And it was, you know, like, hey, here's,

Lex Fridman (1:11:58.700)

there was a guy named Jeff Ruth,

Ryan Hall (1:11:59.940)

who was a purple belt at the time,

Lex Fridman (1:12:01.420)

which was a much bigger deal than it is now,

Lex Fridman (1:12:03.000)

but it was 10 and always an MMA fighter,

Lex Fridman (1:12:04.660)

a lot of amateur box spirit, super tough dude.

Lex Fridman (1:12:06.720)

And Jeff was the best person at that time

Lex Fridman (1:12:09.380)

that I'd ever trained with.

Lex Fridman (1:12:10.220)

And I just got squashed.

Lex Fridman (1:12:11.260)

Christian used to beat me up too,

Lex Fridman (1:12:12.140)

but like Jeff would just absolutely kick the crap out of me.

Lex Fridman (1:12:15.060)

And I was like, this is awesome.

Lex Fridman (1:12:16.600)

And this was back when I was at home.

Lex Fridman (1:12:18.140)

I went home for the summer for that.

Lex Fridman (1:12:19.380)

And Chris is like, hey, I think you should stay because I told him that's what I was thinking.

Lex Fridman (1:12:22.620)

And this was a coach that, you know, when it's like when initially was exactly what I needed.

Lex Fridman (1:12:27.580)

And then he's like, well, hey, that's not what I'm doing here.

Lex Fridman (1:12:29.460)

Maybe they're going to be able to help you onto a path that's,

Ryan Hall (1:12:32.400)

that's kind of commensurate with what your goals are at the moment.

Lex Fridman (1:12:34.820)

And then, you know, that was an, that was an interesting thing.

Lex Fridman (1:12:37.520)

And I really got, I feel that I was fortunate to start at a place where my coach was able to transition roles

Lex Fridman (1:12:43.820)

and, and, and do so comfortably.

Lex Fridman (1:12:46.260)

And I think that that also was probably a factor of the fact that, you know,

Ryan Hall (1:12:49.360)

where he'd done some of his training prior, like there've been issues with, with the coach there.

Ryan Hall (1:12:53.960)

We're like not supporting, not having the support, you know, feeling like, hey,

Lex Fridman (1:12:57.340)

like I'm going to hold onto my students.

Ryan Hall (1:12:58.580)

I'm gonna hold onto my best guy or my best girl, even if I can't take them where they need to go.

Lex Fridman (1:13:03.460)

So that was an interesting thing.

Lex Fridman (1:13:05.300)

And just recognizing also though, that the people like the same way you're an individual going into a gym

Lex Fridman (1:13:10.740)

and you don't know what you're getting into your coach is a person too.

Lex Fridman (1:13:13.420)

And he or she, you know, they may have been doing this activity longer than you, but they're not,

Lex Fridman (1:13:18.140)

they're not some weird little, you know, all knowing God.

Ryan Hall (1:13:20.940)

They don't know anything.

Lex Fridman (1:13:22.180)

They may say something that pisses you off.

Ryan Hall (1:13:23.780)

They may, they may yell at you.

Lex Fridman (1:13:25.820)

They may help you.

Ryan Hall (1:13:26.580)

They may inadvertently cause you some sort of, you know, some sort of issue.

Lex Fridman (1:13:31.060)

And just being able to recognize that even though I say this to people and I've said this to people in my gym,

Ryan Hall (1:13:35.700)

I'm like, you know, we're in the service industry, man, but I'm not at your service.

Lex Fridman (1:13:38.900)

Like don't get it twisted.

Ryan Hall (1:13:39.980)

Like I will absolutely do my best to help people.

Ryan Hall (1:13:42.620)

I'm there to do my best as a martial arts coach, but I'm here to do my best as a martial arts coach.

Lex Fridman (1:13:48.100)

And I'll do my best and periodically I make mistakes and I own apology or two,

Lex Fridman (1:13:51.020)

and I'll try to give them out when I can.

Lex Fridman (1:13:52.780)

But we're not McDonald's.

Lex Fridman (1:13:54.020)

It's not, oh, you gave me a hundred bucks, so you do whatever you want in here.

Ryan Hall (1:13:56.420)

This is my house.

Lex Fridman (1:13:57.100)

This is my gym.

Ryan Hall (1:13:57.780)

This is my dojo.

Lex Fridman (1:13:58.460)

This is, this is a martial arts.

Ryan Hall (1:13:59.580)

This is not a basketball team.

Lex Fridman (1:14:00.820)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (1:14:01.020)

There's something beautiful about martial arts.

Ryan Hall (1:14:03.420)

Like exactly as you said is the coach, like in wrestling and at least collegiate,

Ryan Hall (1:14:08.420)

like high level wrestling is like, there's a dictatorship aspect to a coach that is very important to have.

Ryan Hall (1:14:16.900)

Like this, this ridiculous sometimes nature of like master and so on and bowing, all these traditions.

Ryan Hall (1:14:23.060)

There's something, it seems ridiculous from the outside perhaps,

Lex Fridman (1:14:26.580)

but there's something really powerful to that because that process of you said, why not,

Ryan Hall (1:14:30.980)

of letting go of the leap of faith requires you to believe that the coach has your best interest in mind

Lex Fridman (1:14:37.700)

and just give yourself over to their ideas of how, how you should grow.

Lex Fridman (1:14:44.420)

And that's an interesting thing.

Lex Fridman (1:14:45.660)

I mean, I've never been able to really see coaches I've had as human.

Ryan Hall (1:14:52.620)

They're always, you always, it's like a father figure or like this,

Lex Fridman (1:14:57.060)

you always put them in this position of power.

Lex Fridman (1:14:59.180)

And I think that's, I think at least for me, it's been a very,

Ryan Hall (1:15:04.220)

it's been a very useful way to see the coach because it allows you to not think and let go

Lex Fridman (1:15:09.940)

and really allow yourself to grow and emotionally deal with all the beatings.

Lex Fridman (1:15:14.500)

Well, they'll push you where past oftentimes where you would have stopped yourself, right?

Ryan Hall (1:15:18.260)

Which is great.

Lex Fridman (1:15:18.900)

And then hopefully they know they, if they're paying attention and they're,

Ryan Hall (1:15:22.260)

they're still a person, they can make mistakes,

Lex Fridman (1:15:23.860)

but they'll push you further than you would have gone, but not so far that it's not facilitative.

Ryan Hall (1:15:27.860)

Right.

Lex Fridman (1:15:28.500)

That's something that I can say, like Faraz Zahabi, the head coach at TriStar,

Ryan Hall (1:15:32.340)

my head coach for MMA, Kenny Florian, one of the head coaches for MMA,

Lex Fridman (1:15:35.220)

they've both been phenomenal influences.

Ryan Hall (1:15:37.140)

Paul Shriner, who's the one of the assistants at Marcelo Garcia's Academy,

Lex Fridman (1:15:41.140)

coached me in Jiu Jitsu for a long time, brilliant instructor.

Ryan Hall (1:15:44.020)

They've all been able to do that.

Lex Fridman (1:15:45.300)

And I think what's interesting about all of those guys is they're very sharp,

Lex Fridman (1:15:48.100)

but they're very intuitive as well.

Lex Fridman (1:15:50.100)

And I think that Faraz actually, you know, told me about some of the John Wooden said,

Ryan Hall (1:15:54.500)

John Wooden, the legendary UCLA basketball coach, just a simple philosophical idea.

Lex Fridman (1:15:59.460)

Just, he said, some people's life is a bowl of shit.

Ryan Hall (1:16:03.060)

It needs some whipped cream in it.

Lex Fridman (1:16:04.660)

Some people's life is a bowl of whipped cream.

Ryan Hall (1:16:06.740)

Needs a little bit of shit in it just to balance it out.

Lex Fridman (1:16:08.740)

And it's an interesting thing.

Ryan Hall (1:16:09.860)

Coaching everyone the same way doesn't work.

Lex Fridman (1:16:12.580)

You know, that's, I think the difference between a coach and an instructor.

Lex Fridman (1:16:14.900)

And a lot of times people think they want to coach, but they really want an instructor.

Lex Fridman (1:16:17.780)

I'm like, hey Lex, tell me what to do, not how to do it.

Lex Fridman (1:16:20.580)

And then other times people think they want, you know, an instructor and they really want a coach.

Lex Fridman (1:16:25.060)

I'm like, man, this guy's just giving me information.

Ryan Hall (1:16:27.060)

A coach is so much more than an instructor.

Lex Fridman (1:16:28.820)

And that's a huge leap.

Lex Fridman (1:16:30.020)

And that's something that I think that people need to understand when they're going into

Lex Fridman (1:16:33.060)

martial arts.

Lex Fridman (1:16:33.460)

And I understand, and I can totally grasp why they don't, because how would they know?

Lex Fridman (1:16:36.900)

But I think about this a lot, like me giving you $150 for a month, which is not nothing,

Ryan Hall (1:16:41.860)

that's for sure.

Lex Fridman (1:16:43.220)

That does not, that pays for instructor really.

Ryan Hall (1:16:45.700)

Coach is a relationship that gets developed because can you imagine like just the amount

Ryan Hall (1:16:48.740)

of emotional investment and time thinking away from like, oh, Lex isn't here anymore.

Lex Fridman (1:16:53.220)

What can I do to help him?

Lex Fridman (1:16:54.020)

What does he need?

Ryan Hall (1:16:55.060)

Like that's serious.

Lex Fridman (1:16:56.260)

And that's the difference between, that's oftentimes the difference that getting over

Ryan Hall (1:17:01.780)

the hump in various situations.

Lex Fridman (1:17:03.700)

So it's an interesting, you know, bargain that's being made like commitment by the instructor

Ryan Hall (1:17:08.660)

who becomes a coach, commitment by the student.

Lex Fridman (1:17:10.980)

You know, like there's a financial transaction.

Ryan Hall (1:17:12.660)

There's a lot of things going on there, but I feel very fortunate to have had not just

Lex Fridman (1:17:16.820)

instructors in my time, but coaches.

Lex Fridman (1:17:18.420)

And that means sometimes we butted heads and sometimes I look back and I think I was right.

Lex Fridman (1:17:22.260)

And other times I look back on my own, no, they were definitely right.

Lex Fridman (1:17:24.660)

But there was always the trust with the exception of one time that I feel that trust was greatly

Ryan Hall (1:17:29.620)

betrayed that rightly or wrongly, whether mistakes, mistakes will be made, but everyone

Ryan Hall (1:17:35.940)

is attempting to do the right thing under no circumstances.

Ryan Hall (1:17:39.460)

Is what I intentionally do anything malicious, you know, versus, Hey, I might've done.

Ryan Hall (1:17:43.540)

I might've burnt your house down, but you can be darn sure it wasn't on purpose.

Lex Fridman (1:17:46.500)

And I think that as long as there's that mutual understanding and mutual belief of goodwill,

Ryan Hall (1:17:51.060)

which again, doesn't just magic up out of nowhere.

Lex Fridman (1:17:53.140)

I understand.

Ryan Hall (1:17:54.180)

I think that that's when then great things can happen.

Lex Fridman (1:17:56.340)

And I look at all the athletes that I know, you know, the guys and girls that I've watched

Ryan Hall (1:17:59.780)

become fantastic in various places, almost invariably.

Lex Fridman (1:18:03.380)

It never happened alone.

Ryan Hall (1:18:05.140)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:18:05.540)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (1:18:05.940)

I'm really torn about that.

Lex Fridman (1:18:07.380)

Like, maybe you can help.

Lex Fridman (1:18:09.540)

Have you seen the movie Whiplash?

Lex Fridman (1:18:12.180)

So it's, I would say from an outsider's perspective, people should watch it.

Ryan Hall (1:18:17.460)

It's, I guess, jazz band.

Lex Fridman (1:18:20.180)

It's a movie about a drummer and the instructor.

Lex Fridman (1:18:23.860)

And he, it's a basically, I would say from the outsider's perspective, it's a toxic

Ryan Hall (1:18:29.060)

relationship, but he's really the coach, whatever we call him, pushes the musician, the drummer

Ryan Hall (1:18:36.340)

or to his limits, like to where he just feels like shit emotionally.

Ryan Hall (1:18:43.460)

It's a, it looks like a toxic relationship, but it's one that ultimately is very productive

Ryan Hall (1:18:49.060)

for the improvement of the musician.

Ryan Hall (1:18:52.500)

I have the same, like in my own experience, I had, I got a chance to train at a couple

Ryan Hall (1:18:59.060)

of places regularly.

Lex Fridman (1:19:00.500)

And so one of my coaches who is a great human being, a lot of people love him.

Lex Fridman (1:19:06.820)

But when I was a blue belt, he was pushing me a lot for competition.

Lex Fridman (1:19:11.700)

And every time I step on the mat, I was anxious and almost afraid of training because of like

Ryan Hall (1:19:21.060)

the places I'm going to have to go.

Lex Fridman (1:19:22.420)

And then the, I can't, I don't know what's good or bad because I think I've become a

Ryan Hall (1:19:30.420)

better person because of that experience.

Lex Fridman (1:19:32.820)

Like I needed that.

Lex Fridman (1:19:34.580)

And on the flip side, like the place I got my black belt from, it's Balanced Studios.

Ryan Hall (1:19:40.420)

I remember also blue belt, the coach sitting down and I was going to competition and he

Ryan Hall (1:19:46.820)

saw something in me where he said, you know, like, good luck, but win or lose, we always

Lex Fridman (1:19:56.820)

love you.

Ryan Hall (1:19:58.260)

Like, I, I really, I remember that because I really needed that at that time.

Lex Fridman (1:20:02.980)

Like I was putting so much pressure on myself.

Ryan Hall (1:20:05.220)

Like I'm not an actual professional competitor, you know, I just competed.

Ryan Hall (1:20:10.580)

Like I'm a PhD student, like, but like it was clearly having a psychological effect

Ryan Hall (1:20:15.220)

on me and that's what a great coach does is like, you know, it's like life is more

Lex Fridman (1:20:21.380)

important than Jiu Jitsu since it's bigger.

Lex Fridman (1:20:23.700)

So they find, you use Jiu Jitsu when you need it to grow as a person and when it

Ryan Hall (1:20:30.580)

overwhelms you, you have to pull that person out, like look at the bigger picture, always

Ryan Hall (1:20:34.980)

look at the bigger picture and it's fascinating and I don't know what to make of it.

Ryan Hall (1:20:38.820)

I don't think I would have it any other way is both the anxiety and the, and the love

Lex Fridman (1:20:44.260)

and the love.

Lex Fridman (1:20:45.540)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (1:20:46.100)

I think that I couldn't, that's a really interesting thing that you're describing

Lex Fridman (1:20:49.380)

that I guess it kind of brings me back to a lot of the other things we've been

Ryan Hall (1:20:52.980)

discussing is just almost like the, the reciprocal nature of everything where no

Lex Fridman (1:20:58.180)

pressure, that's great.

Ryan Hall (1:21:00.340)

Everyone's happy all the time.

Ryan Hall (1:21:01.460)

It's either, I mean, let's, uh, use the example of sci fi movies to see the matrix,

Ryan Hall (1:21:05.300)

which of course the first one was amazing and then each subsequent movie made the

Lex Fridman (1:21:08.260)

series worse.

Ryan Hall (1:21:09.220)

But, um, but basically, yeah, I've heard, we'll see, I was hoping for the best, but,

Ryan Hall (1:21:14.580)

um, but basically, uh, you know, let's say, Hey, which we started with our first

Ryan Hall (1:21:17.780)

initial world agent Smith says to Neo is like our first world was a utopia where

Lex Fridman (1:21:22.820)

everyone was happy and nothing ever went wrong.

Ryan Hall (1:21:24.660)

It's like your primitive cerebrum rejected it.

Lex Fridman (1:21:27.380)

And I think that there's obviously, I mean, what do I think, but I guess, well,

Ryan Hall (1:21:31.380)

I'm here, so I might as well say what I think.

Lex Fridman (1:21:33.060)

Um, I guess, uh, you know, great things are fantastic.

Ryan Hall (1:21:39.460)

A kind, gentle place is fantastic.

Lex Fridman (1:21:42.180)

And this is again, why I love dune is I think dune does such a great job of, of

Ryan Hall (1:21:45.700)

expressing Frank Herbert does such a great job of expressing again, the

Lex Fridman (1:21:48.580)

reciprocal nature of these ideas.

Ryan Hall (1:21:50.260)

You know, look at, uh, look at Sparta for instance, or at least what I understand

Lex Fridman (1:21:53.860)

of Sparta from the reading and also watching 300.

Ryan Hall (1:21:56.580)

Um, uh, you know, and reading the Wikipedia and reading the Wikipedia

Lex Fridman (1:22:00.820)

article about the movie, not the place.

Ryan Hall (1:22:02.980)

Um, but, uh, it's, um, that's a hard, brutal place.

Lex Fridman (1:22:08.260)

And that was their benefit to that.

Ryan Hall (1:22:10.420)

Like, absolutely.

Lex Fridman (1:22:11.540)

Was there drawback to that?

Ryan Hall (1:22:12.980)

Absolutely.

Lex Fridman (1:22:13.780)

Is it sustainable?

Ryan Hall (1:22:14.740)

I should probably think probably not.

Ryan Hall (1:22:17.300)

Um, I mean, granted it hasn't sustained, but I mean, that type of a, of a thing,

Ryan Hall (1:22:21.380)

it, it burns too hot almost.

Lex Fridman (1:22:22.980)

And it, uh, it, it destroys the host at a certain point.

Ryan Hall (1:22:26.820)

And, you know, I guess that, that type of unforgiving nature, but in

Lex Fridman (1:22:30.660)

entirely, entirely permissive has its own issues.

Lex Fridman (1:22:33.700)

And I guess coming back into your, what your description of like describing a

Lex Fridman (1:22:37.700)

toxic relationship is a very dangerous and tricky thing because it's almost

Ryan Hall (1:22:41.460)

like, uh, it's like bird's eye view.

Lex Fridman (1:22:43.140)

Me, you know, you see, let's say a husband and a wife arguing, you know,

Ryan Hall (1:22:46.580)

like, all right, well, sort of somebody hitting somebody.

Lex Fridman (1:22:49.220)

I need to keep myself out of this because I have no idea what I'm seeing

Ryan Hall (1:22:53.540)

something, but I don't know what's going on or why specifically.

Lex Fridman (1:22:57.300)

And again, short of it going to a place that, that just out of bounds,

Ryan Hall (1:23:02.100)

I don't know who's right here.

Lex Fridman (1:23:03.300)

I don't know who's wrong.

Lex Fridman (1:23:04.260)

And I don't know what phase of this things are in.

Lex Fridman (1:23:07.300)

So I guess long term was good for both people.

Ryan Hall (1:23:12.660)

Right.

Lex Fridman (1:23:12.900)

It's dangerous for it.

Lex Fridman (1:23:13.700)

So if I want to put my finger on the scale, I can understand the desire to do

Lex Fridman (1:23:16.660)

them like, Hey guys, let's break it up.

Ryan Hall (1:23:17.700)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:23:18.100)

But, and that may be the right thing at the time, but at the same time, I'm not

Ryan Hall (1:23:21.140)

sure.

Lex Fridman (1:23:21.460)

So I think back to all of the times that.

Ryan Hall (1:23:23.780)

You know, that like you mentioned, your coach pushing you when very, very hard.

Lex Fridman (1:23:27.940)

And then other times going like, Hey, let's put it in perspective here.

Ryan Hall (1:23:30.980)

I think that's an interesting thing for high performance.

Lex Fridman (1:23:33.140)

And I think that we're seeing that again, societally, you know, now, or at least

Ryan Hall (1:23:36.180)

maybe that's just pops up on my internet feed periodically but coaches shouldn't

Lex Fridman (1:23:40.500)

be allowed to do this or yell at this person to yell at that person.

Lex Fridman (1:23:43.220)

Like, well, have you ever been go to a boxing gym?

Lex Fridman (1:23:46.980)

It's not a commercial entity.

Ryan Hall (1:23:48.180)

Not really a real box, not LA boxing, not a USC gym, like a real place.

Lex Fridman (1:23:54.100)

You're going to see what things are like when it's entirely performance based.

Ryan Hall (1:23:57.460)

Go to wrestling room at a high level.

Lex Fridman (1:23:59.060)

You know, again, there's, there's left and right limits and there are such

Ryan Hall (1:24:01.620)

things obviously as abuse, of course, but, and that should never be tolerated.

Lex Fridman (1:24:04.900)

Um, but it's not a commercial entity.

Ryan Hall (1:24:09.620)

I don't need to be sweet to you if you're, if you're screwing up, if you're

Ryan Hall (1:24:12.580)

dropping the ball and in fact, recognizing that I'm not doing you a favor or the

Ryan Hall (1:24:16.180)

favor or the team a favor by, by being permissive of that type of behavior.

Lex Fridman (1:24:21.140)

I think is important.

Ryan Hall (1:24:22.340)

Everything in its context and at its time is important.

Lex Fridman (1:24:25.060)

And I guess I can think again at the times that I've been put, put, or had

Ryan Hall (1:24:28.980)

put on me, like a great deal of pressure to do X, Y, or Z or to succeed, um, or

Lex Fridman (1:24:34.020)

to push for success.

Lex Fridman (1:24:35.220)

And I can't look back fondly enough on those times.

Ryan Hall (1:24:38.980)

They were tough at the time, but without that, I'm not sitting here without that.

Ryan Hall (1:24:42.580)

I don't go from growing up in a, in a very nice family in the suburbs to fighting at

Ryan Hall (1:24:48.820)

the highest level in jujitsu, gi, no gi, and now in mixed martial arts, starting a

Ryan Hall (1:24:52.820)

career at age 27.

Ryan Hall (1:24:54.580)

You know, I don't, it just doesn't happen because people generally speaking from

Ryan Hall (1:24:58.260)

that background, don't get pushed hard enough physically to be able to make that

Lex Fridman (1:25:02.340)

transition.

Lex Fridman (1:25:03.620)

And that has benefits and it has drawbacks.

Lex Fridman (1:25:07.220)

You know, when you stare into the abyss, it stares back.

Lex Fridman (1:25:09.540)

And I think that that's an important thing to understand.

Ryan Hall (1:25:12.020)

You know, you stare long enough, you, you can become something that you don't, that

Ryan Hall (1:25:15.860)

you would be sorry that you did.

Lex Fridman (1:25:17.060)

You don't look enough and you don't have perspective either.

Ryan Hall (1:25:20.340)

You know, and I, I think that that's an interesting thing.

Ryan Hall (1:25:22.980)

I can speak to someone who's relative to being someone who's relatively articulate

Lex Fridman (1:25:26.340)

and reasonable.

Ryan Hall (1:25:27.140)

I try to be reasonable, but you know, I'll say in sparring, if people get crazy with

Ryan Hall (1:25:30.740)

me, they get a warning and then I'm a crack them.

Lex Fridman (1:25:33.460)

And what did they expect?

Lex Fridman (1:25:35.460)

Oh, they hear the guy on a, on an interview, but who did they think they were meeting?

Lex Fridman (1:25:40.500)

Cause there's also the guy in the ring and there's layers there too.

Ryan Hall (1:25:43.940)

I remember training with you.

Lex Fridman (1:25:45.060)

It was kind of funny.

Ryan Hall (1:25:46.900)

There's like, there's, well, you didn't know who I was.

Lex Fridman (1:25:51.700)

I mean, you still like, I have a really good straight ankle up by the way.

Ryan Hall (1:25:55.860)

That.

Lex Fridman (1:25:57.300)

So I don't remember what rank I was, but it might've been purple or something like

Ryan Hall (1:26:01.940)

that.

Lex Fridman (1:26:02.180)

And I did some, like I, you had this look on your face, which I've often seen in

Ryan Hall (1:26:08.100)

black belts.

Lex Fridman (1:26:08.820)

It's like, here he goes again, like here, here's him trying this thing.

Lex Fridman (1:26:16.980)

And then when I kind of annoyed you a little bit with it, now I get that it was a good

Ryan Hall (1:26:21.620)

at like, I, you know, I did something somewhat effective, like some, like maybe a little

Ryan Hall (1:26:25.700)

bit off balance.

Lex Fridman (1:26:26.660)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (1:26:27.380)

There's a, I just peeled off a little layer of Ryan Hall to where I was like, okay, let

Ryan Hall (1:26:31.300)

me, let me like, there, there's like layers underneath Mike Tyson somewhere in there.

Ryan Hall (1:26:38.500)

Like, so it was like, okay, this like new guy rolls in here.

Lex Fridman (1:26:41.940)

He thinks he can do the stupid thing.

Lex Fridman (1:26:44.260)

And then, and then you started to beat the hell out of me.

Lex Fridman (1:26:46.740)

But the, the, the point is there's layers here from the guy who was being interviewed

Ryan Hall (1:26:51.300)

now to like Genghis Khan, but it's, but it's all in the same body.

Lex Fridman (1:26:55.540)

Right.

Lex Fridman (1:26:55.780)

But it's like, all of us are like that, right.

Lex Fridman (1:26:57.380)

In various different directions and recognizing that's okay.

Ryan Hall (1:27:00.020)

It's just, there are consequences to all every choice that we make as a consequence.

Lex Fridman (1:27:03.620)

Sometimes there's like objectively wrong or objectively right.

Lex Fridman (1:27:06.260)

But at least in my mind, that's a pretty small box.

Lex Fridman (1:27:08.500)

Everything else is just, there's a consequence to that.

Lex Fridman (1:27:10.900)

Do you like that consequence?

Lex Fridman (1:27:12.100)

Do you not?

Lex Fridman (1:27:13.060)

And who do I want to become?

Lex Fridman (1:27:14.420)

What do I want to try to hone myself or anyone else into?

Lex Fridman (1:27:18.420)

And also like, but this is something I've screwed up as a coach plenty of times.

Ryan Hall (1:27:22.100)

You know, like if someone says, if you're, if like, I come to them like Lex, I really,

Ryan Hall (1:27:26.100)

really want to take, you know, research very seriously.

Lex Fridman (1:27:28.580)

Like, okay, I believe you.

Ryan Hall (1:27:29.860)

Now I haven't shown you that, but I believe you like, okay.

Lex Fridman (1:27:33.300)

And now me not showing up to research or to study or not being up until three in the morning

Ryan Hall (1:27:38.100)

thinking about this is no longer acceptable.

Ryan Hall (1:27:40.100)

There was a time like five seconds before me making that statement that if I went to

Ryan Hall (1:27:44.020)

bed without reading the book that I needed to read, no worries.

Lex Fridman (1:27:47.300)

But the second that I made that statement, your expectations for me changed.

Lex Fridman (1:27:51.300)

And maybe that's something that I've screwed up a whole bunch of times in my, as a teacher.

Ryan Hall (1:27:55.220)

Cause it's an interesting thing, obviously, you know, being a, like running a martial

Ryan Hall (1:27:58.100)

arts school is as you're principally an athlete is sometimes I don't pay enough attention

Lex Fridman (1:28:03.380)

to what people are doing.

Ryan Hall (1:28:04.420)

I just go, oh, okay.

Lex Fridman (1:28:05.380)

You say X, Y, Z.

Ryan Hall (1:28:06.260)

I'm like, Roger that.

Lex Fridman (1:28:07.060)

I believe you.

Ryan Hall (1:28:07.540)

Cool.

Ryan Hall (1:28:08.100)

I will now put you in category X and whether rightly or wrongly, like maybe this person

Ryan Hall (1:28:13.380)

didn't understand what they were asking for, or I didn't express this or the other.

Lex Fridman (1:28:16.660)

And it just, it caused cross wires.

Lex Fridman (1:28:18.500)

And then most times you just, you hash it out.

Ryan Hall (1:28:20.180)

You have a discussion, you figure out, get to the bottom of what people are trying to

Ryan Hall (1:28:22.580)

do or what they want.

Lex Fridman (1:28:23.860)

But if I was paying more attention, I think I could have been a lot more effective.

Ryan Hall (1:28:26.980)

Or if I had more experience and sometimes maybe I'm not sharp enough or I don't, I'm

Lex Fridman (1:28:30.100)

not perceptive enough to be able to, to see what's going on.

Lex Fridman (1:28:32.420)

And maybe with years more down the line, I'll be able to have a sharper perception.

Lex Fridman (1:28:36.260)

But I think that's another one of those interesting things that some, that sometimes I would caution

Ryan Hall (1:28:41.060)

or not caution, but just inform a prospective martial arts student, depending upon where

Ryan Hall (1:28:44.740)

you're going you know, this you, both you and also your coach or other people in the

Ryan Hall (1:28:49.300)

room, they wear many hats.

Lex Fridman (1:28:50.340)

And sometimes there's a, I had the wrong hat on.

Ryan Hall (1:28:52.100)

You were talking to me as Lex the guy.

Lex Fridman (1:28:54.260)

I didn't realize you were talking to me.

Ryan Hall (1:28:55.620)

I thought you were talking to me as Lex the guy.

Lex Fridman (1:28:56.820)

I didn't realize you're talking to me as Lex the martial artist.

Ryan Hall (1:28:58.500)

I'm like, Oh crap.

Lex Fridman (1:28:59.460)

I was talking to the wrong person.

Lex Fridman (1:29:00.500)

So it's almost like if you had a, like I run my gym with my wife, she's a black belt.

Lex Fridman (1:29:05.620)

So she's my wife.

Ryan Hall (1:29:07.300)

She's my peers as a martial artist, uh, in Jiu Jitsu.

Lex Fridman (1:29:11.380)

He's here by the way, in judging.

Lex Fridman (1:29:12.820)

So exactly.

Lex Fridman (1:29:13.780)

All right.

Ryan Hall (1:29:14.100)

Well, all right.

Lex Fridman (1:29:15.060)

So, but, but a fellow black belt.

Lex Fridman (1:29:16.820)

And I guess like another thing, she doesn't have a microphone, so you can't hear all the

Lex Fridman (1:29:19.300)

trash she's talking.

Ryan Hall (1:29:20.100)

Exactly.

Lex Fridman (1:29:20.820)

But it can be tough.

Lex Fridman (1:29:21.940)

And that's something that we've had to work through a lot.

Lex Fridman (1:29:23.460)

And it's like looking back and it's like now being where I'm at now.

Lex Fridman (1:29:26.260)

And it's easy for me to say that cause she's in the room and I don't want her to stab me,

Lex Fridman (1:29:29.140)

just continue to slowly poison me over time, which frankly I understand.

Ryan Hall (1:29:33.540)

Um, you know, it's, it's the sort of thing that is now way more effective than anything

Lex Fridman (1:29:38.180)

else I could really reasonably expect to have.

Ryan Hall (1:29:40.660)

Um, but there were times when, when both of us, you know, were justifiably annoyed at

Lex Fridman (1:29:45.300)

the other because of crossed wires.

Lex Fridman (1:29:47.700)

And sometimes, you know, you'll just have to scream in any way or misunderstanding anyway.

Lex Fridman (1:29:50.260)

But again, like I've, I coached some of my friends, I've coached, I've coached my friend

Ryan Hall (1:29:54.180)

who I've known since I was four years old.

Lex Fridman (1:29:56.580)

You know, sometimes I don't go, Hey buddy, how are you doing?

Lex Fridman (1:29:58.740)

Sometimes it's like, what the fuck are you doing?

Lex Fridman (1:30:00.180)

Put your hand over there.

Lex Fridman (1:30:00.740)

How many times we talked about this?

Lex Fridman (1:30:01.780)

And then you walk away and you can see him look at you crooked and you're like, Oh crap.

Ryan Hall (1:30:06.100)

Oh yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:30:06.260)

He thought I was talking to his friend.

Ryan Hall (1:30:07.620)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (1:30:07.780)

Well, all right, let, we need to talk this one out, hashing out and not he's wrong.

Lex Fridman (1:30:11.220)

How could he possibly think that way?

Lex Fridman (1:30:12.820)

Like, Oh no, I totally understand that.

Lex Fridman (1:30:14.340)

But if I was 22, like doesn't need no, I'm a purple belt, some nonsense like that.

Lex Fridman (1:30:18.500)

And it's, and it doesn't come from a bad place, but it's just, I guess that comes back to

Ryan Hall (1:30:22.260)

society to anything.

Lex Fridman (1:30:23.140)

People only had the perspective that they have and the awareness that we have.

Lex Fridman (1:30:26.020)

And so again, going back and going, Hey guys, grace, like I don't expect, it's not fair

Lex Fridman (1:30:30.260)

for me to go, I fight UFC.

Lex Fridman (1:30:32.180)

Why doesn't this guy who came in as an attorney understand how hardcore this needs to be?

Lex Fridman (1:30:36.100)

I'm like, how could he?

Ryan Hall (1:30:36.980)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:30:37.620)

And at the same time though, if, if I'm using the language of someone that is interested

Ryan Hall (1:30:43.700)

in at least performance from a martial arts perspective, I understand how that could be

Lex Fridman (1:30:47.380)

off putting.

Ryan Hall (1:30:47.940)

Let's say for instance, someone that's like all of that would be out of bounds in their

Lex Fridman (1:30:51.220)

normal workplace.

Lex Fridman (1:30:52.340)

But if they think of the gym as my office, then whether they agree or disagree with what's

Lex Fridman (1:30:56.340)

going on, they go, okay, I hear why I see why that might happen.

Ryan Hall (1:30:58.740)

Let's talk about this.

Lex Fridman (1:30:59.860)

And we can, again, all push forward in a positive direction that benefits, I guess, everyone's

Ryan Hall (1:31:04.580)

journey throughout the activity.

Lex Fridman (1:31:05.860)

And on top of all that, there's moods.

Ryan Hall (1:31:08.740)

Like I, I mean, especially lately, I think two days ago, maybe yesterday, no, two days

Lex Fridman (1:31:15.540)

ago, I've never been that cranky in my life.

Ryan Hall (1:31:21.140)

I think, I don't know what it was, but I wanted to tell everybody how much they annoyed me.

Ryan Hall (1:31:28.020)

It was like, I was just very conscious of this feeling of like, why, why is this happening

Lex Fridman (1:31:34.660)

right now?

Lex Fridman (1:31:35.220)

So I consciously decided as I usually do in those cases to not say anything to anybody.

Lex Fridman (1:31:40.260)

How do you do that?

Lex Fridman (1:31:43.620)

Well, I, you know, it's, it's yeah.

Ryan Hall (1:31:47.060)

Meditate because it's not, I tend to, I tend to then visualize what's going to happen in

Lex Fridman (1:31:52.420)

the next, like, how is this going to make my life better?

Ryan Hall (1:31:55.700)

Like if I say something that mean to somebody else, I have just started a conflict that

Lex Fridman (1:32:07.460)

will just escalate, will continue, will add more conflict to my life.

Ryan Hall (1:32:13.140)

It will make things, I just don't like the feeling you will create.

Lex Fridman (1:32:17.380)

And so you live in enough life to know that like, it's just like with like street fighting.

Ryan Hall (1:32:24.340)

I would get into a lot of fights when I was younger, just on the street, but then you

Lex Fridman (1:32:28.900)

realize like, it's not like a jujitsu match or something like that.

Ryan Hall (1:32:32.820)

It's not, it'll escalate.

Lex Fridman (1:32:35.380)

It'll, it might come back at you.

Ryan Hall (1:32:38.420)

It'll like that person might find you again.

Lex Fridman (1:32:40.900)

But more importantly, the anxiety of it, of having created little enemies in this

Ryan Hall (1:32:48.580)

world, distorts the way you see the world.

Lex Fridman (1:32:52.020)

So I've noticed that like, if I am shitty to people on the internet, which I haven't

Ryan Hall (1:32:57.380)

been, I think in a long time is like, it, it somehow brings the shittiness to you

Ryan Hall (1:33:02.820)

more and more, it escalates like the more love you put out there, the more like the

Ryan Hall (1:33:07.300)

people who put love out, like surround you.

Lex Fridman (1:33:11.140)

Well, you mentioned forgiveness as well.

Ryan Hall (1:33:12.660)

Like you said, like, I guess back to the original, you know, the Holocaust survivor

Ryan Hall (1:33:16.900)

scenario where you're like, oh my God, like you think of the ultimate in, in like, I've

Ryan Hall (1:33:20.740)

never experienced one, one billionth of that level of, of pain and horror.

Lex Fridman (1:33:24.980)

And it's like, and I can't let this little thing go.

Ryan Hall (1:33:28.100)

You know, I guess that's an interesting thing.

Ryan Hall (1:33:29.460)

I think you're just making the point in your personal life, I guess the same way.

Lex Fridman (1:33:32.420)

Right?

Lex Fridman (1:33:33.220)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (1:33:34.180)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:33:34.580)

And on the internet, it's hard.

Ryan Hall (1:33:35.860)

I've somehow gotten, I mean, you've, you've had a level of celebrity for a while.

Lex Fridman (1:33:42.420)

I've recently gotten some level of like celebrity and like these people who are

Ryan Hall (1:33:47.620)

just shitty for no reason come out from all, from all places, like calling me a

Lex Fridman (1:33:53.700)

fraud or anything else.

Ryan Hall (1:33:57.460)

It was Jay and Silent Bob, Strike Back.

Ryan Hall (1:33:59.540)

They find out a movie is going to be made about them and people were talking shit

Lex Fridman (1:34:01.940)

on the internet and they're like, what's the internet?

Lex Fridman (1:34:03.460)

And then someone shows them and they're like, what?

Lex Fridman (1:34:05.860)

And they go to a message board and they go to Hollywood to try to stop it from

Lex Fridman (1:34:08.580)

being made.

Lex Fridman (1:34:09.060)

And they eventually get money for their likeness and they use the money to buy

Ryan Hall (1:34:11.700)

plane tickets and fly around and beat the shit out of all the people that talk bad

Ryan Hall (1:34:14.420)

about them.

Lex Fridman (1:34:15.380)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (1:34:15.620)

It's tough.

Lex Fridman (1:34:16.020)

I mean, it's I'm, I'm having trouble with it cause there's people like, yeah,

Ryan Hall (1:34:20.420)

there's, you know, there's posts and forums and like heated discussions about

Lex Fridman (1:34:25.060)

is like sweeping a fraud.

Ryan Hall (1:34:26.820)

I don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:34:27.700)

What has he really done?

Lex Fridman (1:34:28.740)

And there's like, and then there's people like, well, I think he's an all right

Lex Fridman (1:34:32.020)

guy, but I'm not sure.

Ryan Hall (1:34:33.060)

Like, like there's like literal discussions and I'm like, like nobody,

Lex Fridman (1:34:39.060)

like if you increase the level of celebrity, there's going to be like one

Ryan Hall (1:34:43.460)

of the things that hurts my heart a little bit is like some level of toxicity

Lex Fridman (1:34:47.780)

around Joe Rogan.

Ryan Hall (1:34:48.900)

For example, there's like communities of people that now like talk about him

Lex Fridman (1:34:54.340)

selling out, for example, all that kind of stuff.

Lex Fridman (1:34:56.820)

And I don't, you know, and Joe I've talked to him about it is amazing that

Lex Fridman (1:35:02.900)

he he says, don't read the comments.

Ryan Hall (1:35:05.540)

He legitimately doesn't read the comments.

Lex Fridman (1:35:07.940)

His heart and his soul doesn't give a damn about the comments.

Ryan Hall (1:35:12.020)

All he gives a damn about is his friends.

Lex Fridman (1:35:14.500)

Like one of the things that's really inspiring to me and that's I've had a

Ryan Hall (1:35:19.060)

conversation with them offline about Spotify and the removed episodes.

Lex Fridman (1:35:24.660)

People are curious.

Lex Fridman (1:35:25.460)

What's Spotify?

Lex Fridman (1:35:26.180)

Um, it's, uh, it's a thing on the internet where, uh, I think you can play

Ryan Hall (1:35:32.260)

Taylor Swift songs on, um, but you can also now play Joe Rogan podcasts and

Lex Fridman (1:35:40.260)

they gave him a hundred million dollars.

Lex Fridman (1:35:42.100)

So that that's, um, you know, that's it's yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:35:46.980)

Uh, but the thing I've had a discussion with him and I made a video about it

Ryan Hall (1:35:51.220)

that I took down because of the toxicity is like, it's hard to put into words,

Lex Fridman (1:35:55.780)

but he will give away the a hundred million in a second.

Ryan Hall (1:36:00.500)

If he ever has to compromise who he is, like he doesn't, I mean, he already

Lex Fridman (1:36:06.260)

said, as he talked about, he's made quote unquote, fuck you money a long

Ryan Hall (1:36:10.500)

time ago, he doesn't need any more money.

Lex Fridman (1:36:14.420)

He doesn't care.

Ryan Hall (1:36:15.940)

It's nice to have money, whatever, but like, he'll give it away.

Lex Fridman (1:36:19.220)

So the it's nice to see when people like him at a level of celebrity level of

Ryan Hall (1:36:26.740)

success and financial success, don't change at all.

Ryan Hall (1:36:31.460)

They're just the same thing that makes you happy is talking in his case, talking

Ryan Hall (1:36:36.420)

shit with his friends in the case of most of us really just, just hanging out

Lex Fridman (1:36:40.020)

with friends, doing the things you love in his case, doing the things he loves

Ryan Hall (1:36:46.020)

without any, like, you know, the Texas way, the freedom, like without any

Lex Fridman (1:36:53.860)

corporate bureaucracy bullshit that rolls in and says, well, maybe you

Ryan Hall (1:36:58.180)

shouldn't say fuck, you know, like more than 20 times a podcast or something

Lex Fridman (1:37:02.500)

like that, like those kinds of like rules, like people, like he says in a

Ryan Hall (1:37:05.940)

suit and tie, they show up and say stuff oddly enough people that could never

Lex Fridman (1:37:10.740)

have done what he does.

Ryan Hall (1:37:12.420)

Yeah, exactly.

Lex Fridman (1:37:13.300)

And it's kind of inspiring to see that.

Lex Fridman (1:37:15.860)

And I hope people, I hope people realize how special of a human he is.

Lex Fridman (1:37:21.860)

He's inspired like people like me, like I'm just, I'm a scientist, right?

Lex Fridman (1:37:27.140)

So he inspired somebody like me from a very different walk of life to be like

Lex Fridman (1:37:32.260)

kind to others, to be open minded.

Ryan Hall (1:37:36.420)

I don't know that it's a special dude.

Lex Fridman (1:37:39.380)

So like people need to support that and treasure that as opposed to

Ryan Hall (1:37:42.740)

as opposed to be toxic about it.

Lex Fridman (1:37:47.540)

I mean, what people really for a long time have told me that it would be

Ryan Hall (1:37:55.140)

awesome if Ryan Hall goes on Joe Rogan.

Lex Fridman (1:37:57.700)

I definitely think that would be an awesome thing.

Lex Fridman (1:38:00.100)

Have you listened to Joe?

Lex Fridman (1:38:02.180)

Has he been a part of your life in some kind of way?

Ryan Hall (1:38:04.900)

You know, well, Joe's always, I remember watching Joe on Fear Factor when I

Lex Fridman (1:38:08.660)

was a little kid, which is cool.

Lex Fridman (1:38:09.780)

So I've actually gotten to like, from a bird's eye view, watch his kind of

Lex Fridman (1:38:14.820)

just path through life.

Lex Fridman (1:38:16.180)

But one of the things that I always appreciate, and again, I barely know Joe

Lex Fridman (1:38:19.940)

other than to shake his hand.

Ryan Hall (1:38:20.740)

He interviewed me after the, briefly in the ring after the BJ pan fight.

Lex Fridman (1:38:24.340)

But one of the things that I've always admired about Joe is that I think he

Ryan Hall (1:38:28.820)

had fucking money from the start.

Lex Fridman (1:38:30.660)

I think that zero dollars is fucking money for Joe.

Ryan Hall (1:38:33.460)

I think, and that's something I respect about him a great deal because as you

Lex Fridman (1:38:37.940)

say, it's interesting to watch, it's like you hope that George St. Pierre is

Ryan Hall (1:38:42.660)

like this.

Lex Fridman (1:38:42.980)

It's really, I'm not super close to George, but we're teammates at TriStar

Lex Fridman (1:38:46.260)

and he's never been anything but a gentleman.

Lex Fridman (1:38:47.700)

He's one of those people that if you didn't know George was famous when you

Ryan Hall (1:38:50.900)

walk into the gym, you'd have no idea.

Lex Fridman (1:38:52.340)

He's not holding court, not doing it.

Ryan Hall (1:38:53.860)

He's just, you know, training and he'll help out an amateur doing this.

Lex Fridman (1:38:56.740)

If you have a question for him, he'll help me.

Ryan Hall (1:38:58.180)

Like I'm nobody, man.

Lex Fridman (1:38:59.460)

He would give me advice and train me.

Ryan Hall (1:39:01.140)

It was super cool.

Lex Fridman (1:39:02.180)

And he didn't kill me, which I really appreciated.

Ryan Hall (1:39:04.020)

He's a gentleman.

Lex Fridman (1:39:05.140)

But you know, it's like you meet someone and you go, man, it's so cool that

Ryan Hall (1:39:09.860)

this is the guy who's the best, that this is the guy who has been successful.

Lex Fridman (1:39:13.940)

And then you go, why are they successful?

Ryan Hall (1:39:16.820)

Like I said, true to what they're doing.

Lex Fridman (1:39:18.020)

They haven't changed.

Ryan Hall (1:39:18.820)

They're the same as they've been.

Lex Fridman (1:39:19.700)

And I remember I got to TriStar in 2012 and George was already George St.

Ryan Hall (1:39:23.540)

Pierre, but I remember watching and talking to people and they're like,

Lex Fridman (1:39:25.940)

oh man, George is the same as he's always been.

Lex Fridman (1:39:27.380)

And it's neat.

Lex Fridman (1:39:27.780)

I see him in the gym training now and again, giving advice now.

Lex Fridman (1:39:30.500)

And it seems like Joe has always been consistent.

Lex Fridman (1:39:33.220)

And it's neat to watch someone not compromise on their values and not change

Ryan Hall (1:39:37.620)

who they are.

Lex Fridman (1:39:38.100)

And not, you know, periodically, like, you know, again, we all make mistakes.

Ryan Hall (1:39:40.740)

Like you have a bad day or this or that.

Lex Fridman (1:39:42.340)

And an apology needs to be issued or even my bad or this or that.

Lex Fridman (1:39:45.380)

And you're like, yeah, and they just move on that they're not afraid to be

Lex Fridman (1:39:48.420)

themselves and they're not afraid to be wrong.

Ryan Hall (1:39:50.660)

They're not afraid to make a mistake.

Lex Fridman (1:39:51.940)

As you mentioned, open mind and some like, so what are the correct beliefs to

Ryan Hall (1:39:54.900)

have about this that I know going in, everyone's going to be okay with what

Lex Fridman (1:39:57.780)

I'm saying, which is usually the beginning of a conversation that's

Ryan Hall (1:40:00.180)

going to go nowhere.

Lex Fridman (1:40:00.900)

Right.

Ryan Hall (1:40:01.540)

And, uh, it's, it's neat to see, um, the things I guess that he's created on

Lex Fridman (1:40:07.380)

his own as a result of the authenticity that's there.

Lex Fridman (1:40:10.740)

And it reminds me of like Dave Chappelle.

Lex Fridman (1:40:12.420)

And, and again, I don't know, I've never met Dave, but it's neat to see

Ryan Hall (1:40:15.460)

someone that's clearly again, authentic in their own way, doing their own

Lex Fridman (1:40:20.340)

thing.

Lex Fridman (1:40:20.740)

And they're because of that, they're above the corporate nonsense.

Lex Fridman (1:40:24.020)

But what's funny, I think the message behind all of it is, Hey guys, we

Ryan Hall (1:40:27.460)

all are, I can't promise you that I'm going to have money.

Lex Fridman (1:40:30.820)

Joe couldn't promise you that he's going to have money.

Ryan Hall (1:40:32.500)

Now it ended up working out, but he was above that nonsense from the jump.

Lex Fridman (1:40:38.180)

And he just continued to be above it by never giving it any mind and just

Ryan Hall (1:40:41.300)

going like, yeah, I'm going to be a reasonable person.

Lex Fridman (1:40:42.900)

I'm going to try to learn.

Ryan Hall (1:40:43.860)

I'm going to try to grow.

Lex Fridman (1:40:45.140)

And, uh, if I say something annoying, you can come and talk to me about it.

Ryan Hall (1:40:48.820)

We can get to the bottom of it.

Lex Fridman (1:40:49.780)

And I'm like, if I need to say my bad, thanks, appreciate it.

Ryan Hall (1:40:52.740)

You know, I will.

Lex Fridman (1:40:53.300)

And if I don't need to, I'm like, Hey, I still appreciate the talk.

Ryan Hall (1:40:55.620)

Thanks man.

Lex Fridman (1:40:56.100)

I'll shake your hand and we'd carry on and we'd go our separate ways and

Ryan Hall (1:40:58.500)

hopefully I'll treat you with respect.

Lex Fridman (1:40:59.860)

You treat me with respect and that's about it.

Lex Fridman (1:41:02.420)

And I guess I think it's a lesson that it can work out no matter what you

Lex Fridman (1:41:06.260)

don't have to count out to like these weird powers that be.

Lex Fridman (1:41:09.780)

And whether you're at this level or at this level, but you can live your

Lex Fridman (1:41:13.620)

life the way that you want.

Lex Fridman (1:41:14.580)

And as you mentioned, talk to your friends, hang out, be happy.

Lex Fridman (1:41:16.900)

And it just so happens that that resonates with people.

Ryan Hall (1:41:18.740)

It actually reminds me of like, uh, speaking to MIT and being in Boston is

Lex Fridman (1:41:22.180)

like a good will hunting.

Lex Fridman (1:41:23.540)

You know, like, again, that's what did he really want to do?

Lex Fridman (1:41:25.940)

He could have gone this way.

Ryan Hall (1:41:26.740)

Could have gone that way.

Lex Fridman (1:41:27.620)

And it was an interesting story, but it's like this person wants to hang out

Ryan Hall (1:41:31.380)

with his buddies and wants to do other things.

Lex Fridman (1:41:33.380)

And again, it happens to be brilliant and happens to be able to do all these

Ryan Hall (1:41:35.940)

other things, but there was.

Lex Fridman (1:41:38.660)

I guess it's like, at least in my mind, a story of authenticity as well.

Lex Fridman (1:41:41.940)

And it was both the same thing in the Robin Williams character.

Lex Fridman (1:41:44.580)

And I just think that that's a message cause watch watching things occur on

Ryan Hall (1:41:49.140)

the internet as they do now.

Lex Fridman (1:41:50.500)

Think so many things playing out in the public eye.

Ryan Hall (1:41:52.660)

I feel like so many private or otherwise formerly private discussions and

Lex Fridman (1:41:56.180)

disputes and, and, you know, interactions now become, they all have a, a, well,

Lex Fridman (1:42:00.980)

what is this going to say when it goes public?

Lex Fridman (1:42:02.740)

So how can I couch what I'm saying?

Ryan Hall (1:42:04.340)

Or how can I word this in a way that's going to get people on my side or use

Lex Fridman (1:42:07.220)

the right buzzwords and not use the wrong buzzwords.

Lex Fridman (1:42:09.540)

And it's just neat to see people.

Lex Fridman (1:42:11.860)

You know, in their own way, flip the bird to the head, because I just think

Ryan Hall (1:42:14.820)

that that's, that's just not how a human being is meant to think or interact.

Lex Fridman (1:42:18.340)

I'm curious what you think about the thing that recently has, you know, me like

Ryan Hall (1:42:27.060)

hosting this podcast, I sometimes think about like, who should I talk to and not

Ryan Hall (1:42:33.860)

in terms of like, it's the, the old Hitler question now, Hitler, I would definitely

Ryan Hall (1:42:39.380)

talk to because post world war II, because everyone knows he's evil.

Ryan Hall (1:42:43.940)

The question, whether you talk to Hitler in 1937, like when people who are really

Ryan Hall (1:42:51.220)

students of what's going on, understand that this is a very dangerous human being.

Lex Fridman (1:42:57.700)

But a large number of the part of the world are like, well, he's a leader who

Ryan Hall (1:43:02.820)

cares for Germany.

Lex Fridman (1:43:04.260)

So the question I have, it's interesting to me, it involves a particular person

Ryan Hall (1:43:09.220)

named who also lives in Austin, Texas named Alex Jones.

Lex Fridman (1:43:13.140)

I don't know if you're familiar with the guy.

Ryan Hall (1:43:14.500)

I am familiar with Mr. Jones.

Lex Fridman (1:43:17.780)

I've actually recently just listened to Infowars, like one episode of his show,

Ryan Hall (1:43:23.700)

I guess that he does every day.

Lex Fridman (1:43:25.780)

And it kind of reminds me of a time in college when I drank too much tequila.

Ryan Hall (1:43:32.660)

There's no turning back.

Lex Fridman (1:43:33.860)

Like, it's like, like the mistakes you make that like, it's, I mean, you don't

Ryan Hall (1:43:41.300)

know where you're going to wake up, you don't know who you're going to kill or

Lex Fridman (1:43:45.620)

not kill or steal or rob, it's unclear.

Lex Fridman (1:43:49.700)

So that, it felt like I was getting pulled into a dark place where pretty

Lex Fridman (1:43:55.460)

much everybody is a pedophile that's trying to control the world.

Lex Fridman (1:44:00.740)

So Bill Gates definitely is a pedophile.

Lex Fridman (1:44:04.260)

Everybody in power, anybody in power, there's a kind of a deep skepticism

Ryan Hall (1:44:08.260)

about power and a conspiratorial way to see the world where everything is

Lex Fridman (1:44:14.580)

like dark forces in all corners.

Ryan Hall (1:44:17.620)

It's like the way you feel when you're a kid, that there's a monster hiding

Lex Fridman (1:44:20.980)

in the closet.

Ryan Hall (1:44:21.860)

Which is also why you leap over the bed from like four feet away.

Lex Fridman (1:44:24.980)

There's a strategy.

Ryan Hall (1:44:26.100)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:44:26.500)

So, but he says that you're just being weak.

Ryan Hall (1:44:28.740)

You need to look under the bed.

Lex Fridman (1:44:30.180)

Under the bed, there's monsters and we need to be aware of them because

Ryan Hall (1:44:33.460)

they're growing, they're multiplying.

Lex Fridman (1:44:35.380)

You should be.

Lex Fridman (1:44:36.260)

And they're touching children.

Lex Fridman (1:44:37.380)

They're touching children.

Ryan Hall (1:44:38.580)

Exactly.

Lex Fridman (1:44:39.460)

So it all connects.

Lex Fridman (1:44:40.820)

But the, the, I, when I listened to him and I thought about like, do I want

Lex Fridman (1:44:46.020)

to talk to him on this podcast, for example, when I listened to his

Ryan Hall (1:44:52.580)

conversation with Joe Rogan, the two times he talked on there, to me,

Lex Fridman (1:44:56.660)

it was somehow entertaining.

Ryan Hall (1:44:59.540)

Like it was fun to listen to.

Lex Fridman (1:45:01.860)

It's fun to listen to a madman go on for four hours because it's almost

Ryan Hall (1:45:08.020)

like theater.

Lex Fridman (1:45:10.420)

Like, this is what I talked to Joe about.

Ryan Hall (1:45:13.460)

When people try to censor Alex Jones, Joe says that the people who try

Lex Fridman (1:45:18.660)

to censor him don't give enough credit to the intelligence of human

Ryan Hall (1:45:22.900)

beings to like, understand like that, like what a person says on a

Lex Fridman (1:45:28.580)

large platform does not necessarily is not the truth.

Ryan Hall (1:45:32.420)

You can be a madman and say crazy things and people are intelligent

Lex Fridman (1:45:36.740)

enough to hear certain things being, when they're said like the earth

Ryan Hall (1:45:42.660)

is flat, they can, they can be intelligent enough not to all of a

Lex Fridman (1:45:46.820)

sudden start believing that the earth is flat.

Ryan Hall (1:45:49.460)

Like they, they're intelligent enough to sort of select different

Lex Fridman (1:45:53.140)

ideas and be able to enjoy the theater of a particular ridiculous

Ryan Hall (1:45:57.460)

over the top conversation without being sort of influenced to where

Lex Fridman (1:46:01.220)

they start believing like toxic set of beliefs.

Ryan Hall (1:46:05.060)

Now there's a lot of sort of other kinds of people, especially now

Lex Fridman (1:46:11.860)

with cancel culture that say, well, you don't want to give platform

Ryan Hall (1:46:14.660)

to crazy people that ultimately whose beliefs might lead to dangerous

Lex Fridman (1:46:20.020)

consequences.

Ryan Hall (1:46:20.900)

Like, and I see it very often now with conspiracy theories that go,

Lex Fridman (1:46:25.060)

that go like way too far.

Ryan Hall (1:46:26.980)

Like for example, would, I, I'm not, I haven't looked into it, so I'm

Lex Fridman (1:46:32.580)

sorry, I will look into it, but it hurts my heart to see that on Bill

Ryan Hall (1:46:40.740)

Gates, in my opinion, the person who has saved and improved more lives

Lex Fridman (1:46:46.580)

than probably any human history, literally because of the money he's

Ryan Hall (1:46:51.460)

invested in helping, like just, just the work he's done on like malaria

Lex Fridman (1:46:55.780)

in Africa, the number of people he's helped is huge.

Lex Fridman (1:46:59.620)

And yet every interview, anything you see now on Bill Gates, everyone

Lex Fridman (1:47:04.900)

is calling him, I believe haven't looked into it, but I believe

Ryan Hall (1:47:08.740)

everyone's calling him a pedophile.

Lex Fridman (1:47:10.020)

I don't know the full structure of it, but it's, it's just a very, it

Ryan Hall (1:47:14.500)

feels like an army of like, it feels like it's hundreds of thousands

Lex Fridman (1:47:18.100)

of people.

Ryan Hall (1:47:18.580)

That's what it feels like.

Lex Fridman (1:47:19.460)

It might be a much smaller percentage, but it feels like a huge number

Ryan Hall (1:47:23.060)

of people are calling him a pedophile.

Lex Fridman (1:47:24.340)

So that's the, that's the flip side.

Ryan Hall (1:47:26.260)

If you allow, if you give platform to conspiracy theories like that,

Lex Fridman (1:47:30.180)

then you start to have bigger and bigger percent of the population

Ryan Hall (1:47:33.380)

believe in these crazy things.

Lex Fridman (1:47:35.140)

I just, I wanted to put it out there.

Ryan Hall (1:47:37.700)

Cause I don't know what to think of that.

Lex Fridman (1:47:40.500)

If you put yourself in Joe Rogan's shoes, if you put yourself in my

Ryan Hall (1:47:43.860)

shoes, if you put yourself just in your own shoes, I mean, I'm even

Lex Fridman (1:47:47.940)

I'm in my shoes right now.

Ryan Hall (1:47:49.620)

Great.

Lex Fridman (1:47:49.860)

If you're staying in your shoes, just stay in your shoes.

Ryan Hall (1:47:51.700)

Can I have your, would you talk, would you give platform to people like

Lex Fridman (1:47:57.780)

Alex Jones, would, would you talk to somebody like Alex Jones or, or not?

Ryan Hall (1:48:05.940)

Uh, I, yes, I would.

Lex Fridman (1:48:07.300)

And I feel very strongly about this, honestly.

Ryan Hall (1:48:09.700)

Um, well, I think that it's, it's an interesting thing and I, I would

Lex Fridman (1:48:14.260)

just say a lot of times, um, I can understand, you know, very, very

Ryan Hall (1:48:18.260)

clearly why people would take issue with the idea of, I guess what they

Lex Fridman (1:48:23.620)

proceed to be amplifying this man's voice, this man's reach, um, you

Ryan Hall (1:48:28.260)

know, as, as a demonstrable negative.

Lex Fridman (1:48:30.740)

But I think, um, you know, when you take a step back further, uh, the,

Ryan Hall (1:48:37.060)

the cure is more damaging than the disease and significantly.

Lex Fridman (1:48:40.900)

So, um, I guess I think that I'm very, very wary of, I think being where

Ryan Hall (1:48:47.780)

you mentioned Alex Jones being wary of power and people with it, that's

Lex Fridman (1:48:51.860)

a lot of times there's a lot of truth and validity to crazy things that

Ryan Hall (1:48:56.820)

people say it's the conspiracy theories that stick are the ones that sound

Lex Fridman (1:49:01.700)

credible, at least quasi credible in some aspect.

Lex Fridman (1:49:05.140)

And it's almost like it seems to me like an anchor in people's mind.

Lex Fridman (1:49:07.620)

And it is also funny to me, obviously the, the Bill Gates, it's so funny

Ryan Hall (1:49:11.540)

to tar people with things like pedophile, racist, rapist, like, these

Lex Fridman (1:49:15.700)

are things that we're basically trying to pick words that no one can ever

Ryan Hall (1:49:18.660)

support someone who does these things.

Lex Fridman (1:49:20.740)

And that's, you know, and that changes year by year.

Ryan Hall (1:49:24.580)

Like currently pedophile is totally in as a thing to call somebody just,

Lex Fridman (1:49:30.660)

just as a, it used to be communist or Marxist Cleveland Browns fan, you

Ryan Hall (1:49:35.140)

know, like, come on, you know, actually nobody likes the Browns.

Lex Fridman (1:49:38.580)

So I'll agree with you.

Ryan Hall (1:49:39.380)

That was, that's why I picked them.

Lex Fridman (1:49:40.580)

That's the trick is you find a group of people that nobody likes.

Ryan Hall (1:49:43.380)

We're good here.

Lex Fridman (1:49:44.420)

All right.

Ryan Hall (1:49:44.740)

That's the move, but, uh, yeah, that's a creepy thing though, because

Lex Fridman (1:49:48.100)

that is, that is the creepy thing is like, if people are always looking

Ryan Hall (1:49:52.020)

for groups of people are always looking for, and I find this really deeply

Lex Fridman (1:49:54.340)

disturbing, um, like, Hey, so who's the guy that we can all get away with?

Lex Fridman (1:49:58.660)

You know, just treating like dirt, who's the guy that I can be a dick to?

Lex Fridman (1:50:02.580)

I can just walk up and punch in the face and no one's going to say anything.

Lex Fridman (1:50:05.380)

And it's, even if I, you know, people do that with, whether it's literal

Ryan Hall (1:50:09.860)

Nazis or someone that I called a Nazi, you know, I guess what's the bigger issue,

Ryan Hall (1:50:13.940)

this person's ridiculous beliefs or what I'm doing.

Lex Fridman (1:50:17.380)

And you mentioned Hitler before, and obviously Mein Kampf being a, you know,

Ryan Hall (1:50:21.140)

like the outline for some of the things he did later and when the evil was it

Lex Fridman (1:50:24.980)

always there, did it, did it take root later on or flourish later on?

Lex Fridman (1:50:28.980)

But was, was Adolf Hitler a problem because he had crazy ideas or

Lex Fridman (1:50:34.020)

because he did things?

Ryan Hall (1:50:35.620)

I think it's because it's not, I think I know it's because he did things.

Lex Fridman (1:50:38.980)

Now, if I'm going to start punishing thought crime, I, I'm going to have to

Ryan Hall (1:50:43.060)

start punishing thought crime.

Lex Fridman (1:50:44.340)

And that's a terrifying concept.

Ryan Hall (1:50:46.100)

Even if I'm right about the certain, about the objectively correct about the

Lex Fridman (1:50:49.380)

things that I decide to call out of bounds, who put me in charge and made me

Ryan Hall (1:50:53.220)

arbiter of good taste and how long until I did it, did it, did it, did it, did it

Lex Fridman (1:50:58.420)

long until I decide that something else is, is out of bounds.

Ryan Hall (1:51:01.940)

It's, it's always a sliding scale or it's always a sliding standard.

Lex Fridman (1:51:05.220)

And I find that, that, you know, to be more of a concern than people doing

Ryan Hall (1:51:09.620)

crazy things, because I guess if you mentioned Alex Jones, you know, putting

Lex Fridman (1:51:12.500)

out ridiculous, ridiculous ideas, ridiculous theories, I think that most

Ryan Hall (1:51:16.260)

people don't look at Alex Jones as a credible person.

Lex Fridman (1:51:18.820)

Now I'm not going to pretend to be deeply read into all of his beliefs or the

Ryan Hall (1:51:22.100)

things that he's trying to peddle.

Lex Fridman (1:51:23.220)

Um, but there's plenty of things that are quasi mainstream that I think on

Ryan Hall (1:51:27.860)

with this side or that side that maybe not comparably ridiculous, but are, you

Lex Fridman (1:51:32.820)

know, particularly in hindsight or, you know, or we're not, or, or silly.

Lex Fridman (1:51:37.140)

And I guess, uh, the idea of, of getting a group of people together to decide

Lex Fridman (1:51:42.740)

what we're not going to tolerate is a very, very tricky thing.

Lex Fridman (1:51:46.180)

And I think that, you know, it reminds me of law or, you know, even, you

Lex Fridman (1:51:51.700)

know, religion when it gets to like, what are the things that we don't like?

Lex Fridman (1:51:54.420)

How do we feel about rape?

Lex Fridman (1:51:56.420)

It's like, no, under no circumstances.

Lex Fridman (1:51:58.220)

Is that an acceptable behavior murder?

Lex Fridman (1:52:00.580)

No, that's not acceptable behavior.

Ryan Hall (1:52:01.860)

Killing, I don't know, kind of depends on the situation.

Lex Fridman (1:52:05.300)

Are you at war?

Lex Fridman (1:52:06.100)

Were you justified?

Lex Fridman (1:52:06.980)

Were you acting in self defense?

Ryan Hall (1:52:09.060)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (1:52:09.300)

So it's not now murder is a specific type of killing the same way, you know, other

Ryan Hall (1:52:14.660)

things should be a specific type of something else.

Lex Fridman (1:52:16.180)

But I guess we, we draw the line of murder.

Ryan Hall (1:52:17.700)

We say, if you want to exist in our society, you can't do this.

Lex Fridman (1:52:20.340)

This cannot be done.

Lex Fridman (1:52:21.700)

And then we go theft.

Lex Fridman (1:52:23.140)

If someone said, Hey, I murdered that guy.

Lex Fridman (1:52:24.900)

Can you understand where I'm coming from?

Lex Fridman (1:52:26.260)

I might say, yeah, I'll hear you out.

Ryan Hall (1:52:27.540)

It doesn't mean that I think you're right, but I'm like, have you ever been wronged

Lex Fridman (1:52:30.740)

so deeply that you could imagine that you could kill someone?

Ryan Hall (1:52:33.460)

I'm like, no, I haven't, but I could conceptualize someone doing that.

Lex Fridman (1:52:36.020)

And I'm like, yeah, okay.

Lex Fridman (1:52:37.460)

And you still need to go, you still need to face, you know, criminal justice as we

Lex Fridman (1:52:40.580)

have it in our system, or at least that's how we've decided.

Ryan Hall (1:52:43.300)

Yeah, there's, it's interesting.

Ryan Hall (1:52:44.580)

You have to be able to like, there's, if you look at the history of discourse in

Ryan Hall (1:52:48.980)

this country, I think it's still true, but I'm not sure it's changed since 9 11 is,

Lex Fridman (1:52:55.380)

uh, it used to be impossible to criticize, um, a soldier.

Ryan Hall (1:53:03.220)

It was easier to criticize war.

Ryan Hall (1:53:05.140)

It was harder to criticize soldiers for allowing themselves to be the tools of war.

Ryan Hall (1:53:10.260)

I tend to be, maybe it's the Russian upbringing.

Lex Fridman (1:53:13.220)

It's the, it's the combat thing.

Ryan Hall (1:53:15.380)

I tend to romanticize war and soldiers.

Ryan Hall (1:53:19.300)

I see soldiers as heroes, but I've also heard people that not only say that soldiers

Ryan Hall (1:53:26.420)

are, uh, war is bad.

Lex Fridman (1:53:28.740)

They say soldiers are bad.

Lex Fridman (1:53:31.620)

What's their argument?

Lex Fridman (1:53:33.060)

It's, it's the kind of a libertarian view that they're basically slaves to evil, right?

Ryan Hall (1:53:41.220)

War is evil and they're, they're given, they are suspending their moral and ethical, like,

Lex Fridman (1:53:49.700)

as like duties as a human being to become the tools of evil.

Ryan Hall (1:53:53.540)

That's the sort of the argument.

Ryan Hall (1:53:55.060)

If you see war as evil, I mean, I think it's useful to hear that, but there's for a long

Ryan Hall (1:54:02.500)

part in history that was completely unacceptable.

Lex Fridman (1:54:05.940)

Same with abortion.

Ryan Hall (1:54:08.020)

If you see abortion as murder, I mean, if I classify it in that, if I put it in that,

Lex Fridman (1:54:16.660)

in that basket, it starts, we're living in the midst of like a genocide.

Lex Fridman (1:54:25.220)

Looked at from that perspective, could you feel how people could be deeply upset by abortion?

Lex Fridman (1:54:29.220)

You go, of course.

Ryan Hall (1:54:29.940)

Looked at from a different perspective, you say, I don't believe it to be murder.

Lex Fridman (1:54:32.980)

That's not how I see it.

Ryan Hall (1:54:34.340)

Then you go, oh, well, if that's the genesis of your, your thought process, then you're

Lex Fridman (1:54:37.780)

like, yeah, okay.

Ryan Hall (1:54:38.340)

Now, now I see how we can come to a different thing, but I guess we go, well, abortion is

Lex Fridman (1:54:43.060)

murder period.

Ryan Hall (1:54:44.100)

Therefore, if you support it, you support murder.

Lex Fridman (1:54:47.140)

That's a convenient way for me to tar you.

Ryan Hall (1:54:49.060)

Right.

Lex Fridman (1:54:49.460)

But I guess that's kind of coming back to the Alec Jones.

Ryan Hall (1:54:52.420)

I'm, I'm just a nuance.

Ryan Hall (1:54:54.420)

It's a, you have to have the nuance in these kinds of conversations and I have to be willing

Ryan Hall (1:54:58.100)

to have the conversation and I have to be willing to sit down.

Ryan Hall (1:55:00.420)

If I can't sit down across from like the most violently racist, angry, hypothetical internet,

Ryan Hall (1:55:05.940)

you know, conceived person that none of us have ever actually met in real life, but are

Ryan Hall (1:55:10.020)

hopefully not, you know, and go like, well, of course I believe that this person's wrong,

Lex Fridman (1:55:14.980)

but allow me to change, do my best.

Ryan Hall (1:55:16.900)

I'll hear them out and I'll go, no, I can go point by point and explain where this guy

Ryan Hall (1:55:19.860)

or this girl is wrong and hopefully bring them over to a more reasonable position where

Ryan Hall (1:55:23.620)

they will have better beliefs and they will like objectively better beliefs and beliefs

Ryan Hall (1:55:27.700)

that will, will, and they'll treat other people better.

Lex Fridman (1:55:30.420)

Why would I want to marginalize this person?

Ryan Hall (1:55:32.020)

I might not want to talk.

Ryan Hall (1:55:32.980)

I might not want to invite them to my barbecue if they're acting like a jerk all the time,

Lex Fridman (1:55:36.180)

but how could I, would it not make the world a better place if I'd hear them out and they

Ryan Hall (1:55:39.620)

go, look, if you're going to sit down and talk with me, we're going to have to have

Ryan Hall (1:55:41.860)

a discussion.

Lex Fridman (1:55:42.660)

I'll hear what you have to say.

Lex Fridman (1:55:44.020)

And if I can't, if I can't explain to someone why their ridiculous belief is wrong, then

Lex Fridman (1:55:50.020)

I might, I must not be so confident in my position.

Lex Fridman (1:55:52.500)

And I guess that's where I come back to the Alex Jones thing.

Ryan Hall (1:55:54.580)

As you mentioned, you know, with, with Bill Gates and, and you're much more familiar with,

Ryan Hall (1:55:58.980)

with the specifics of all the good that he's done, but you know, again, he's been an unbelievable

Lex Fridman (1:56:02.660)

force for good, you know, in this world.

Ryan Hall (1:56:05.380)

You can list A, B, C, D things that the man has, has done, that his foundation has done

Lex Fridman (1:56:11.380)

and, you know, positive things.

Lex Fridman (1:56:13.220)

And then the other people could speculate about ridiculous, crazy levels of, of evil,

Lex Fridman (1:56:18.740)

but you can't produce any evidence for that sort of thing.

Lex Fridman (1:56:21.140)

Because if you could, the man will find himself in some trouble, you know?

Lex Fridman (1:56:23.780)

And anyway, I guess what I would, would say is that why you can't force me to accept the

Ryan Hall (1:56:29.780)

truth the same way you could write down two plus two equals four on a piece of paper and

Lex Fridman (1:56:33.140)

show me how it works.

Lex Fridman (1:56:33.940)

And I could say, no, but that doesn't make it not true.

Lex Fridman (1:56:36.500)

And you've still given yourself an opportunity to present your case.

Ryan Hall (1:56:38.980)

You've presented it to me.

Lex Fridman (1:56:40.260)

And you've also, for anyone listening and watching, you know, you've been able to critically

Ryan Hall (1:56:45.060)

assess what's gone on, you know, or critically address back and forth, you know, kind of

Lex Fridman (1:56:48.980)

the, the discourse.

Lex Fridman (1:56:50.100)

And I think that you almost, you're making your case for the public.

Lex Fridman (1:56:52.500)

So I guess like, you know, when it comes to just never not engaging with these people,

Ryan Hall (1:56:57.860)

that seems to me to be cowardly.

Lex Fridman (1:56:59.220)

And I think that that's a, something that we're seeing in society right now, I think

Ryan Hall (1:57:02.900)

we're seeing a crisis of courage in society all over the place.

Lex Fridman (1:57:06.820)

And I think that's where we're seeing poor leadership.

Ryan Hall (1:57:09.140)

I think we're seeing understandable things happening everywhere, but we need stronger

Ryan Hall (1:57:13.620)

voices and stronger, stronger beliefs that have a conviction and are willing to engage

Ryan Hall (1:57:18.180)

with others, not just turning into a shouting contest and not, I didn't win because there's

Lex Fridman (1:57:22.020)

more of me.

Ryan Hall (1:57:22.420)

Oh, I voted, I outvoted you.

Lex Fridman (1:57:23.940)

That's nice too.

Lex Fridman (1:57:24.820)

But that's a stand in for bullets.

Lex Fridman (1:57:26.260)

That's saying I won because there's more of me.

Ryan Hall (1:57:27.940)

That doesn't mean that I'm right because plenty of horrible and unpopular now things have

Lex Fridman (1:57:32.260)

been very, very deeply popular in the past and would have won a popular vote.

Lex Fridman (1:57:35.460)

Does that make them right?

Lex Fridman (1:57:36.820)

I'd say clearly not.

Lex Fridman (1:57:38.180)

So I guess you'd hope that we engage with these people and that you can do your best

Ryan Hall (1:57:42.420)

to bring them over to a more reasonable position if you believe that you have one.

Lex Fridman (1:57:45.540)

And if you can't, well, at least you made the effort.

Lex Fridman (1:57:47.540)

And I think that that's something where martial arts shows the value.

Lex Fridman (1:57:50.100)

It's like, do you know if you're going to go win your next fight?

Lex Fridman (1:57:52.180)

I'm like, I have no idea.

Ryan Hall (1:57:53.460)

I will proceed forward with full effort and I will fight with dignity.

Ryan Hall (1:57:58.420)

I'll fight with honor and I'll fight with courage and I'll use everything that I have

Lex Fridman (1:58:02.500)

and I will play within the bounds of the game and that's that.

Lex Fridman (1:58:05.300)

And the result will be what it'll be.

Lex Fridman (1:58:06.660)

But I'll walk into and out of that ring with my head held high because I will know that

Lex Fridman (1:58:09.860)

I did my part.

Ryan Hall (1:58:10.580)

I did my job.

Lex Fridman (1:58:11.620)

The outcome, the specific outcome is not in my control.

Ryan Hall (1:58:14.500)

It's just strongly in my influence.

Lex Fridman (1:58:16.340)

And I think that that's something that helped me, that martial arts has taught me because

Ryan Hall (1:58:20.340)

other times, even when I was successful or unsuccessful, I would focus on if I won, I

Lex Fridman (1:58:25.140)

won, therefore I'm good.

Ryan Hall (1:58:26.260)

I lost, therefore I'm bad.

Lex Fridman (1:58:27.540)

This other guy won or lost, therefore, as opposed to evaluating their method.

Lex Fridman (1:58:31.460)

And I think it's so easy when we're taking a bird's eye view of things to not evaluate

Lex Fridman (1:58:35.300)

how someone's doing things.

Ryan Hall (1:58:36.340)

You're not evaluating my process.

Lex Fridman (1:58:38.020)

You're simply evaluating my outcome.

Lex Fridman (1:58:39.460)

And I could have stumbled into something very, very good or very, very bad.

Lex Fridman (1:58:42.740)

And we can look back and I think that's the value of history.

Ryan Hall (1:58:44.660)

I mean, I don't mean to get on my dang high horse, but it's like this value of history

Lex Fridman (1:58:47.780)

is we can see the unbroken chain or the chain of events that led us somewhere.

Lex Fridman (1:58:51.700)

And then only with the eyes of history can we truly evaluate things unless we're in

Lex Fridman (1:58:55.700)

the room watching it happen.

Lex Fridman (1:58:57.380)

And I guess that's, again, where we start to go most of the big, bad, scary things that

Ryan Hall (1:59:02.820)

have happened in history that are done particularly on an industrial scale, which implies governmental

Ryan Hall (1:59:08.420)

power and things like that or the equivalent, involve groups of people getting together

Lex Fridman (1:59:12.980)

and going, hey, we're not going to deal with that guy, giant groups of people.

Lex Fridman (1:59:16.100)

So maybe we're right this time, but maybe we're wrong next time.

Lex Fridman (1:59:20.100)

And I guess I would be back to the Gandalf putting on the one ring.

Ryan Hall (1:59:22.980)

I would be very, very hesitant, even if we thought we were in the right to simply try

Lex Fridman (1:59:26.820)

to try to marginalize just on general principle.

Ryan Hall (1:59:30.180)

Even people like Alex Jones, whom on their face are pretty ridiculous.

Lex Fridman (1:59:33.860)

Like you said, you should sit down with Adolf Hitler and talk to the man.

Ryan Hall (1:59:36.740)

I agree with you to play a little devil's advocate is Alex Jones might be a bad example.

Lex Fridman (1:59:44.420)

But if we look at, because he has a face, he is a human, he's a real person.

Ryan Hall (1:59:48.740)

There's also trolls on the internet for Chan.

Ryan Hall (1:59:55.380)

The worry I have with those folks is that, and there might be parallels to martial arts

Ryan Hall (20:01.340)

very different direction.

Lex Fridman (20:02.220)

And the only person,

Ryan Hall (20:03.100)

the only thing stopping that person

Lex Fridman (20:04.220)

from doing something to me is either me, that person,

Ryan Hall (20:08.300)

or someone else that will stand in between us.

Lex Fridman (20:10.540)

And if I can't do it,

Lex Fridman (20:11.980)

and there's no one there to stand in between us,

Lex Fridman (20:13.660)

then the only thing stopping that person is that person.

Lex Fridman (20:16.460)

And I have to hope that they're either disinterested

Lex Fridman (20:19.100)

or disinclined to do that sort of thing.

Lex Fridman (20:21.340)

And I think that it's keeping in mind

Lex Fridman (20:24.700)

that that is the fundamental nature of the world,

Ryan Hall (20:27.900)

whether we like it or not is important.

Lex Fridman (20:30.540)

And I think the quest to fundamentally alter human nature

Ryan Hall (20:34.860)

is gonna be ultimately fruitless.

Lex Fridman (20:36.380)

And then also it's, it is a little bit egotistical.

Ryan Hall (20:38.780)

A lion does what a lion does.

Lex Fridman (20:40.620)

We can try to box it in and we can try to guide

Ryan Hall (20:44.300)

this direction, that direction.

Lex Fridman (20:45.420)

But nature is as it is and as it always will be

Ryan Hall (20:49.340)

unless we wanna start to constrain it significantly.

Lex Fridman (20:52.620)

But now I'm starting to get into individual rights

Ryan Hall (20:55.420)

who put me in charge,

Lex Fridman (20:56.460)

who says that I should be the one

Ryan Hall (20:57.580)

to make the choices constraining

Lex Fridman (20:58.780)

because many of the most awful things

Ryan Hall (21:00.700)

that have happened throughout history,

Lex Fridman (21:02.300)

one group or one person has decided to constrain others.

Lex Fridman (21:05.740)

And we don't like Genghis Khan doing that.

Lex Fridman (21:08.060)

Well, I'll do that on a little level.

Lex Fridman (21:10.140)

Are there gonna be benefits and beneficiaries?

Lex Fridman (21:12.620)

Absolutely, but there'll be losers in that too.

Lex Fridman (21:15.100)

So I guess it's a dangerous game.

Lex Fridman (21:16.460)

It's almost like putting on the one ring.

Ryan Hall (21:17.980)

You remember when Frodo offered the one ring to Gandalf

Lex Fridman (21:20.860)

and Gandalf said, no, no, I would take it away.

Ryan Hall (21:23.180)

I would put it on.

Lex Fridman (21:24.300)

I would use it out of the desire to do good.

Lex Fridman (21:26.300)

But through me, it would wield a power so terrible

Lex Fridman (21:28.940)

you can't imagine.

Ryan Hall (21:29.980)

I think that's the big question for anyone that decides

Lex Fridman (21:33.180)

that's able to have reach and able to have power.

Ryan Hall (21:36.300)

I mean, obviously I can't speak to that,

Lex Fridman (21:38.380)

but imagine you did have national level,

Ryan Hall (21:41.020)

global level power.

Lex Fridman (21:42.460)

How would you use it?

Lex Fridman (21:43.420)

Would you try to change the world?

Lex Fridman (21:45.660)

Would you be glad that you did down the line?

Ryan Hall (21:47.500)

I don't know.

Lex Fridman (21:48.860)

Yeah, that's the thing we're struggling now as a society.

Ryan Hall (21:52.060)

Maybe it'd be nice to get your quick comment on that,

Lex Fridman (21:54.700)

which is the people who have traditionally been powerless

Ryan Hall (21:59.580)

are now seeking a fairer society, a more equal society.

Lex Fridman (22:05.500)

And in attaining more power justly,

Ryan Hall (22:12.460)

there's also a realization, at least from my perspective,

Lex Fridman (22:16.140)

that power corrupts everyone.

Lex Fridman (22:18.300)

Even if the flag you wave is that of justice, right?

Lex Fridman (22:26.940)

And so, not to overuse the term, but it'd be nice

Ryan Hall (22:31.580)

if you have thoughts about the whole idea of cancel culture

Lex Fridman (22:34.620)

and the internet and Twitter and so on,

Ryan Hall (22:39.580)

where there's nuanced, difficult discussions of race,

Lex Fridman (22:45.340)

of gender, of fairness, equality, justice,

Ryan Hall (22:51.580)

all of these kinds of things.

Lex Fridman (22:53.260)

There's a shouting down oftentimes of nuanced discussion

Ryan Hall (22:57.740)

of kind of trying to reason through these very difficult issues,

Lex Fridman (23:04.860)

through our history, through what our future looks like.

Lex Fridman (23:07.420)

Do you have thoughts about the internet discourse

Lex Fridman (23:10.220)

that's going on now?

Lex Fridman (23:11.420)

Is there something positive?

Lex Fridman (23:12.620)

Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting thing to see.

Ryan Hall (23:16.780)

I guess, as you mentioned,

Lex Fridman (23:19.500)

anytime you're wielding power, whomever you are,

Ryan Hall (23:22.860)

doing so carefully is important.

Lex Fridman (23:24.860)

And it's very, very easy to look at the people that have power

Lex Fridman (23:28.380)

and that are using it poorly or have used it poorly

Lex Fridman (23:31.340)

and go, hey, you're the bad guy.

Lex Fridman (23:33.260)

And then go, well, of course, if I had power,

Lex Fridman (23:35.420)

I'll use it properly and I may intend to use it properly

Lex Fridman (23:38.140)

and maybe I will.

Lex Fridman (23:38.860)

But at the same time, we see a lot of times

Ryan Hall (23:43.580)

people are people are people.

Lex Fridman (23:44.860)

I think that a lot of the...

Ryan Hall (23:48.460)

I think if you believe that human beings are all one,

Lex Fridman (23:52.300)

which I do, no matter whether you're here or there,

Ryan Hall (23:54.540)

you got two arms, two legs, a heart, a brain,

Lex Fridman (23:57.820)

we all live a similar experience.

Lex Fridman (24:00.300)

And obviously, with variations on a theme,

Lex Fridman (24:02.620)

but you're no less a human being.

Ryan Hall (24:05.660)

If you're a person I've never met from China,

Lex Fridman (24:07.740)

than some person in Virginia, we're all people.

Lex Fridman (24:12.140)

And I guess, ultimately, if I believe that human beings

Lex Fridman (24:14.860)

are corruptible and that power corrupts

Lex Fridman (24:16.380)

and that we're all fallible and we say and do things

Lex Fridman (24:19.820)

that either intentionally or unintentionally

Ryan Hall (24:22.860)

that we wish we'd not, I think that I have to allow

Lex Fridman (24:28.140)

for a space, I guess the word, it's almost a religious term,

Lex Fridman (24:31.740)

but I guess I would just say grace.

Lex Fridman (24:33.100)

And that's something that I see disappearing from discourse

Ryan Hall (24:36.540)

in the public, or maybe it wasn't there, I'm not sure,

Lex Fridman (24:39.100)

but it's interesting watching this occur on the internet

Ryan Hall (24:42.060)

because also now no longer are you and I just having a talk

Lex Fridman (24:45.740)

sitting on a bus stop, it's now in writing.

Ryan Hall (24:48.460)

Everything's in writing.

Lex Fridman (24:49.180)

The old saying, don't put that in writing.

Ryan Hall (24:51.340)

You're like, don't put anything in writing.

Lex Fridman (24:52.540)

That's how you get in trouble.

Lex Fridman (24:53.580)

And basically, with the degree to which everything

Lex Fridman (24:57.180)

is recorded, but recorded in tiny little bites,

Ryan Hall (24:59.340)

it's very, very easy for me to wave every last little foolish,

Lex Fridman (25:02.860)

ignorant, incorrect, or correct thing that someone

Ryan Hall (25:05.420)

has ever said or done in their face to support whatever

Lex Fridman (25:08.460)

argument that I'm trying to make about them or a situation.

Lex Fridman (25:11.500)

And I think that you mentioned cancel culture,

Lex Fridman (25:15.340)

as it seems to exist.

Ryan Hall (25:16.300)

Obviously, this is poisonous on its face.

Lex Fridman (25:17.740)

This is poisonous.

Ryan Hall (25:20.140)

It's the sort of thing that doesn't incentivize

Lex Fridman (25:22.540)

proper behavior.

Ryan Hall (25:23.820)

I mean, you look at, let's say one of the great monsters

Lex Fridman (25:26.380)

of history, Adolf Hitler, obviously, who's done awful,

Ryan Hall (25:30.460)

awful things, but also for anyone that's even a minor

Lex Fridman (25:33.020)

student of history, did some positive things as well.

Ryan Hall (25:36.620)

I don't have to embroider this person's crimes.

Lex Fridman (25:39.340)

I don't have to act as if there was nothing good a monster has

Ryan Hall (25:43.340)

ever done and nothing bad that a great person throughout history

Lex Fridman (25:46.540)

has ever done.

Lex Fridman (25:47.500)

But imagine the ghost of Adolf Hitler were to pop up and go,

Lex Fridman (25:50.700)

oh, my gosh, guys, I'm so sorry.

Ryan Hall (25:52.460)

I know what I've done, but I'd like to apologize and start

Lex Fridman (25:55.500)

to make it right.

Ryan Hall (25:56.780)

Well, I mean, you'd hope that if he popped up over here,

Lex Fridman (25:59.180)

you'd go, well, I don't really like what you've done.

Lex Fridman (26:01.340)

And I don't like you.

Lex Fridman (26:02.380)

But at the same time, I'm glad to hear that you're attempting

Ryan Hall (26:04.940)

to make this right and push in a positive direction, even if

Lex Fridman (26:07.180)

you can't make it right.

Lex Fridman (26:08.300)

Because otherwise, what am I doing?

Lex Fridman (26:09.980)

I'm disincentivizing change for the better.

Ryan Hall (26:12.460)

I'm looking to wield whatever power I have in a punitive

Lex Fridman (26:15.500)

fashion, which does not encourage people to do anything

Ryan Hall (26:19.340)

other than double down on the wrongs that they've made,

Lex Fridman (26:22.220)

knowing that at least they're going to have some support from

Ryan Hall (26:24.540)

the people that support that.

Lex Fridman (26:26.220)

And I guess I want to, you would hopefully look at the use

Ryan Hall (26:30.540)

of the internet as a tool that can educate, and I guess I

Lex Fridman (26:34.140)

don't like the word empower, but empower people to do various

Ryan Hall (26:36.860)

things, extend their reach, but educate and learn rather than

Lex Fridman (26:40.220)

to further solidify little tribal things that exist, which

Ryan Hall (26:44.300)

I think everyone in humanity and human history is vulnerable

Lex Fridman (26:47.180)

to.

Ryan Hall (26:47.340)

I mean, look at the course of human history.

Lex Fridman (26:48.940)

It's deeply tribal.

Lex Fridman (26:50.300)

And the tribes or the groups that have been on top at various

Lex Fridman (26:53.420)

points in time have done a lot of times bad things to the

Ryan Hall (26:56.620)

ones that have not.

Lex Fridman (26:57.900)

And you'd hope that we could learn lessons from the past

Lex Fridman (27:00.300)

and rather than committing the crimes that were committed

Lex Fridman (27:04.940)

against us, recommitting them when we slide into the top

Ryan Hall (27:07.980)

position, say, I could do this now, but I'll not.

Lex Fridman (27:12.140)

I understand the urge to seek vengeance is strong.

Ryan Hall (27:15.180)

Anyone that says differently, I wouldn't trust.

Lex Fridman (27:18.140)

But at the same time, we have enough experience in history,

Ryan Hall (27:21.900)

enough experience in life, enough hopefully wisdom time in

Lex Fridman (27:25.340)

to go, this isn't the right answer.

Ryan Hall (27:27.820)

This is only going to replay the things.

Lex Fridman (27:29.820)

The worst parts of our history, not the best.

Lex Fridman (27:31.980)

And I want to encourage positive behavior.

Lex Fridman (27:34.540)

And if I just, again, further lash out at people, although

Ryan Hall (27:37.660)

understandably, done understandably, I'm simply just

Lex Fridman (27:41.180)

going to just perpetuate the cycle that's gone on to this

Ryan Hall (27:43.500)

point.

Lex Fridman (27:44.060)

So you hope that even though we're seeing a lot of turmoil

Ryan Hall (27:47.660)

societally at the moment and globally at the moment, that I

Lex Fridman (27:51.180)

guess our better angels can prevail at a certain point.

Lex Fridman (27:53.500)

But it's going to take a great deal of leadership.

Lex Fridman (27:55.420)

And I think that we're sorely missing like a Martin Luther

Ryan Hall (27:58.700)

King style character at the moment or a great leader.

Lex Fridman (28:01.020)

And I'm hoping that one will show up.

Ryan Hall (28:04.220)

For sure.

Lex Fridman (28:05.420)

And by the way, a word I don't hear often, and I think it's

Ryan Hall (28:08.540)

a beautiful one, which is grace.

Lex Fridman (28:10.460)

That's a really interesting word.

Ryan Hall (28:11.660)

I'm going to have to think about that.

Lex Fridman (28:13.740)

There is a religious component to it, but it's exactly right.

Ryan Hall (28:18.620)

You have to somehow walk the line between, you know, you

Lex Fridman (28:23.980)

mentioned Hitler.

Ryan Hall (28:24.940)

I've been reading The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.

Lex Fridman (28:28.460)

I'm really thinking about the 1930s and what it's like to

Ryan Hall (28:33.820)

have economic.

Lex Fridman (28:36.860)

My concern is the economic pain that people are feeling now

Ryan Hall (28:41.100)

quietly is really a suffering that's not being heard.

Lex Fridman (28:46.380)

And there's echoes of that in the 20s and the 30s with the

Ryan Hall (28:50.780)

Great Depression.

Lex Fridman (28:52.300)

And there's a hunger for a charismatic leader.

Ryan Hall (28:55.260)

Like you said, there's a leader that could walk with grace,

Lex Fridman (29:00.060)

could inspire, could bring people together with sort of dreams

Ryan Hall (29:07.100)

of a better future that's positive.

Lex Fridman (29:09.900)

But Hitler did exactly everything that I just said, except

Ryan Hall (29:14.140)

for the word positive, which is he did give a dream to the

Lex Fridman (29:18.780)

German people who were great people, who are great people

Ryan Hall (29:21.820)

of a better future.

Lex Fridman (29:25.260)

It's just that a certain point that quickly turned into the

Ryan Hall (29:31.420)

better future requires literally expansion of more land.

Lex Fridman (29:37.900)

It started with, well, if we want to build a great Germany,

Ryan Hall (29:42.460)

we need a little bit more land.

Lex Fridman (29:44.620)

And so we need to kind of get Austria, then we need to kind

Ryan Hall (29:49.180)

of get France, mostly because France doesn't understand that

Lex Fridman (29:55.100)

more land is really useful.

Lex Fridman (29:56.300)

So we need to get rid of them.

Lex Fridman (29:57.420)

And look what they did to us in Versailles anyway.

Ryan Hall (2:00:01.380)

is they practice guerrilla warfare, meaning they don't necessarily want to arrive at the truth.

Lex Fridman (2:00:09.220)

They just always want to cut at the ankles of the powerful.

Ryan Hall (2:00:13.940)

Like they want to always break down the powerful.

Lex Fridman (2:00:17.460)

And even if they, I mean, it's, they turn everything into a game.

Lex Fridman (2:00:22.580)

So they let's see if we can make the world.

Lex Fridman (2:00:26.660)

Let's see if we can make a trend that Bill Gates is a pedophile, right?

Ryan Hall (2:00:30.580)

They make it into a game.

Lex Fridman (2:00:31.620)

They get excited about this game.

Ryan Hall (2:00:33.460)

They see the powerful.

Ryan Hall (2:00:34.820)

Let's see if we can convince that, like, who is the most positive person we can think of.

Ryan Hall (2:00:39.220)

Let's see if we can turn them into evil.

Lex Fridman (2:00:41.300)

And they've tried that with like everybody and it seems to stick and they're good at it.

Lex Fridman (2:00:47.700)

And some would argue, whatever you think about our current president, that he has some elements

Ryan Hall (2:00:54.420)

of that, which is he's figured out whatever this music of social discourse that's going on,

Ryan Hall (2:01:00.900)

he's figured out how to always troll the mainstream flow of consciousness.

Lex Fridman (2:01:07.940)

That's the media.

Ryan Hall (2:01:09.300)

He always kind of says stuff that annoys a very large number of people.

Lex Fridman (2:01:13.780)

And he enjoys that because it's like taking the powerful, taking the way things were before.

Lex Fridman (2:01:19.460)

And he like shakes it up by saying the most inappropriate thing, almost on purpose or

Lex Fridman (2:01:23.940)

instinctually and so on.

Ryan Hall (2:01:25.540)

The problem I have with that is that doesn't, the powerful thing there is it brings those

Lex Fridman (2:01:36.900)

in power down a notch.

Ryan Hall (2:01:38.020)

That's a great thing.

Ryan Hall (2:01:38.980)

The negative thing is it doesn't push us closer to a nuanced, careful, rigorous discourse

Ryan Hall (2:01:46.180)

towards truth.

Lex Fridman (2:01:47.620)

It's like showing up to a party and just like starting to yell.

Ryan Hall (2:01:51.140)

It doesn't create a good conversation.

Ryan Hall (2:01:54.100)

It just makes everything into a game where truth doesn't even seem like a thing we can

Ryan Hall (2:01:59.140)

even hope to achieve.

Lex Fridman (2:02:01.220)

That makes sense.

Lex Fridman (2:02:02.020)

And I guess, as you mentioned, we'll come back to another movie because I don't do books

Lex Fridman (2:02:04.740)

and do movies.

Lex Fridman (2:02:05.380)

Some people just want to watch the world burn, right?

Lex Fridman (2:02:07.380)

And I guess there's, that's a creepy, creepy kind of urge that some people have.

Lex Fridman (2:02:13.940)

And then also is some people you're like, hey, would you like to throw a brick through

Lex Fridman (2:02:16.660)

that glass window?

Ryan Hall (2:02:17.460)

You're like, yeah, sure.

Lex Fridman (2:02:19.060)

Like, no, I'm not going to do that because I think about what's going to occur.

Ryan Hall (2:02:23.860)

Like something's going to be hurt, someone's property not going to do it versus, hey, you

Lex Fridman (2:02:27.060)

want to see what will happen?

Ryan Hall (2:02:27.860)

Like, yeah, sure.

Ryan Hall (2:02:28.740)

Kids are always like, I have my son, he grabs Spider Man and drops him on the table.

Ryan Hall (2:02:33.540)

Spider Man fell.

Lex Fridman (2:02:34.500)

Spider Man didn't fall, Sean.

Ryan Hall (2:02:35.940)

Like, he dropped him, you knocked him off the table and he'll grin.

Lex Fridman (2:02:39.780)

And basically, it's an interesting thing, like you said, that these people are appealing

Ryan Hall (2:02:46.340)

to and also almost like the little dog factor of like people do want to watch the powerful

Lex Fridman (2:02:52.420)

get taken down a notch for all the good and the not good of that.

Ryan Hall (2:02:55.220)

Just plenty of people, it seems to me, that have found their way to incredibly high positions.

Ryan Hall (2:02:59.940)

Some have just found themselves there and many, many, many, many, many people, men and

Ryan Hall (2:03:04.580)

women of all backgrounds are brilliant and have worked hard.

Lex Fridman (2:03:08.100)

And yeah, of course, there's luck and there's luck into everything.

Ryan Hall (2:03:11.300)

LeBron James, in spite of being the best basketball player on God's green earth, is fortunate

Lex Fridman (2:03:16.260)

that he didn't get hit by a car.

Ryan Hall (2:03:17.780)

It's fortunate he didn't tear his knee, but thankfully, we get to see all these things.

Lex Fridman (2:03:22.580)

But I guess if people don't have any skin in the game, you never know what they're going

Ryan Hall (2:03:31.140)

to do.

Lex Fridman (2:03:31.380)

And I think that's the problem with the internet.

Ryan Hall (2:03:33.140)

You know, that people get to be nameless, be faceless.

Lex Fridman (2:03:36.340)

That's why guerrilla fighters are outside of the bounds of war.

Ryan Hall (2:03:39.300)

Like you don't have a uniform on.

Lex Fridman (2:03:40.820)

Like, I don't know who you're from.

Ryan Hall (2:03:42.340)

You don't get the same treatment that a soldier gets for MP.

Lex Fridman (2:03:46.740)

Well, that's crazy.

Ryan Hall (2:03:47.540)

Actually, there's reasons for this, because otherwise people are able to assail things

Lex Fridman (2:03:52.260)

and there's no one responsible.

Lex Fridman (2:03:55.220)

There's no way to go and say, hey, where did this come from?

Lex Fridman (2:03:57.540)

What's the root of this?

Lex Fridman (2:03:58.340)

How can I address this?

Lex Fridman (2:03:59.700)

And I think that's the problem of the internet, the problem of Twitter.

Ryan Hall (2:04:01.940)

There's a problem in places like 4chan.

Lex Fridman (2:04:03.300)

I wouldn't mind seeing that type of stuff go away, if I'm frank.

Lex Fridman (2:04:06.580)

But that's not the same thing as people with a face, people who are willing to stand there

Lex Fridman (2:04:11.540)

and say, hi, my name is so and so.

Ryan Hall (2:04:13.540)

Even if I have ridiculous beliefs, hopefully people will hear me out.

Lex Fridman (2:04:16.420)

And then if I'm wrong, educate me.

Lex Fridman (2:04:18.260)

But I guess you hope that the real, I guess, in my mind, antidote to all of this silliness

Lex Fridman (2:04:24.340)

is education.

Lex Fridman (2:04:25.300)

And I think that that's something that we're critical thinking is not necessarily.

Lex Fridman (2:04:30.580)

I went to school in America, and I feel very fortunate.

Lex Fridman (2:04:33.220)

But critical thinking is not something that's focused on.

Lex Fridman (2:04:36.820)

I mean, it's tough.

Ryan Hall (2:04:37.700)

It's almost like talking about jujitsu.

Lex Fridman (2:04:39.220)

It's tough to teach critical thinking when I don't know any words.

Ryan Hall (2:04:41.460)

You have to teach me techniques.

Lex Fridman (2:04:42.500)

You can't teach me to be an artist.

Lex Fridman (2:04:44.100)

But recognize that the techniques are the beginning, not the end.

Ryan Hall (2:04:47.220)

Ultimately, it's the artistry that we are searching for, not just the science or the

Ryan Hall (2:04:51.940)

biro memorization.

Lex Fridman (2:04:53.060)

And I guess you'd hope that people's ability to think critically and recognize that majority

Ryan Hall (2:04:58.420)

rule or whoever's loudest does not mean that they're right by any stretch of the imagination.

Lex Fridman (2:05:01.940)

And we don't appeal to that.

Lex Fridman (2:05:02.740)

And we don't bow to that.

Ryan Hall (2:05:04.660)

We'll help them to help inoculate them against the ridiculous things that come out of these

Ryan Hall (2:05:09.140)

places, these dark places that are objectively not great.

Lex Fridman (2:05:12.660)

But I guess all circling back, even if we swatted these bad things out of existence

Ryan Hall (2:05:19.300)

right now, we've got to be very, very careful doing that because it's who's doing the swatting.

Ryan Hall (2:05:25.380)

This political group that's in power right now, the people that support our current president

Ryan Hall (2:05:28.980)

would maybe feel a certain way.

Ryan Hall (2:05:30.260)

The people that support another option would feel differently as to what exactly defines

Ryan Hall (2:05:34.260)

toxic.

Lex Fridman (2:05:34.820)

And I guess that's what gives me pause.

Ryan Hall (2:05:38.980)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:05:39.780)

But also the grace thing.

Ryan Hall (2:05:41.380)

I tend to believe that the technology, you said education, but the platforms we use like

Ryan Hall (2:05:48.660)

Twitter and Reddit and all these platforms have a role to play to teach us grace.

Ryan Hall (2:05:54.180)

Meaning they should help us incentivize the kind of behavior that is incentivized in real

Lex Fridman (2:06:03.460)

life.

Ryan Hall (2:06:03.940)

Like being a dick in real life is not incentivized.

Lex Fridman (2:06:07.460)

Like one on one interaction.

Ryan Hall (2:06:09.380)

Like there's cases where it is, but usually being kind to each other is incentivized.

Lex Fridman (2:06:15.300)

On the internet, it's not.

Ryan Hall (2:06:16.580)

Like you get likes for mocking people in a funny, in a humorous way.

Lex Fridman (2:06:22.180)

And it can be dark kind of mocking, depending on the community.

Ryan Hall (2:06:24.980)

You can go to the appearance.

Ryan Hall (2:06:27.460)

If somebody is a little fat or a little too skinny, you can comment on their appearance,

Ryan Hall (2:06:32.420)

the hair, the way the hair looks, like the appearance stuff.

Ryan Hall (2:06:36.500)

It could be on the people comment all the time on the level of eloquence of my speech.

Ryan Hall (2:06:44.420)

Go fuck yourself.

Lex Fridman (2:06:45.460)

I like it.

Ryan Hall (2:06:46.420)

It's creepy though watching previously, like this used to be low brow though.

Ryan Hall (2:06:50.420)

Like people doing this type of stuff, it's creepy watching like our political figures

Ryan Hall (2:06:53.700)

get into this type of game.

Lex Fridman (2:06:56.180)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (2:06:56.820)

But again, it's a little bit refreshing, right?

Ryan Hall (2:07:00.180)

It's the, my hope with Donald Trump was, is that he would shake up the people who wear

Ryan Hall (2:07:09.460)

suits.

Ryan Hall (2:07:09.940)

Usually the, like if you're from DC, I remember like showing up, I actually didn't wear what

Ryan Hall (2:07:16.100)

I usually wear in DC cause I was like, everybody's wearing a suit and tie when I was like giving

Lex Fridman (2:07:21.540)

talks and stuff.

Ryan Hall (2:07:22.340)

Except for Mudge, who wears jeans and a t shirt.

Lex Fridman (2:07:24.500)

Mudge doesn't give a damn.

Ryan Hall (2:07:25.460)

Mudge is a forever renegade.

Lex Fridman (2:07:28.900)

But I don't even remember what, oh yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:07:34.260)

So my hope with Trump was that he would shake up that system to say like, to inject new

Lex Fridman (2:07:40.900)

ideas, to inject new energy.

Ryan Hall (2:07:43.060)

Of course, the way it turned out is different, but like there's, it turns out that you might

Ryan Hall (2:07:49.300)

want to have somebody who's like an Andrew Yang type character who is full of ideas that

Ryan Hall (2:07:54.900)

are very different and inject the energy, new energy into the system through youthful

Ryan Hall (2:08:01.700)

new ideas versus through the troll that like, that's very good at sort of mocking and like

Ryan Hall (2:08:09.300)

playing outside the rules of the game.

Lex Fridman (2:08:12.980)

But Trump did reveal powerfully, I don't know what to think of it, that it's just a game

Lex Fridman (2:08:20.020)

and you don't have to play by the rules.

Lex Fridman (2:08:22.260)

That's both inspiring and dark.

Lex Fridman (2:08:25.620)

Deeply depressing, right?

Lex Fridman (2:08:26.900)

Yeah, and I don't know what to do with it.

Ryan Hall (2:08:28.980)

I don't, I mean the same, I'm not drawing parallels, not drawing parallels between our

Ryan Hall (2:08:34.500)

president and Adolf Hitler, but it's certainly, and there's a lot of, in history, a lot of

Ryan Hall (2:08:41.940)

positive and a lot of negative things happen when charismatic leaders realize they don't

Lex Fridman (2:08:47.060)

have to play by the rules.

Ryan Hall (2:08:49.380)

You can just flip the table.

Lex Fridman (2:08:50.580)

It's that Kevin Spacey show.

Ryan Hall (2:08:55.140)

House of Cards.

Lex Fridman (2:08:55.700)

House of Cards, where you just flip the table or whatever.

Ryan Hall (2:08:58.420)

You don't have to play by the rules of the chess game.

Lex Fridman (2:09:00.420)

You can flip the table.

Lex Fridman (2:09:01.860)

One wonders if that's always been done in private, you know?

Ryan Hall (2:09:04.580)

I guess, because that's, I mean, even look, obviously, the United States is a republic,

Lex Fridman (2:09:09.060)

but we had Bush, then we had Clinton, then we had more Bush, then we had President Obama,

Lex Fridman (2:09:14.900)

then we were about to have another Clinton.

Ryan Hall (2:09:16.900)

That's fairly creepy.

Lex Fridman (2:09:18.260)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (2:09:19.140)

Even on its own.

Lex Fridman (2:09:20.340)

But now we added another, I mean, I'm sure we'll have a generation of Trumps now.

Ryan Hall (2:09:26.580)

Gee.

Lex Fridman (2:09:27.080)

I'm Russian, so I think we humans like kings still and queens.

Ryan Hall (2:09:36.040)

There's something, we're attracted to the thing we talked about, coaches.

Lex Fridman (2:09:41.000)

There's something in us that longs towards that authoritarian control.

Ryan Hall (2:09:45.560)

One of the beautiful things about America, the Second Amendment, is we also like individual

Lex Fridman (2:09:53.080)

freedom.

Ryan Hall (2:09:53.480)

That's one of the unique aspects at the founding of this country and still, and for me, is

Ryan Hall (2:09:59.320)

the beacon of hope that somehow there's the fire of freedom burns in like that Texas feel.

Ryan Hall (2:10:09.080)

That gives me hope.

Ryan Hall (2:10:10.440)

The FU energy that revolts against the power, which as we discussed, power corrupts and

Ryan Hall (2:10:17.960)

ultimately leads to degradation of whoever's ruling the people.

Lex Fridman (2:10:25.880)

It's interesting though.

Ryan Hall (2:10:26.840)

It seems to me, maybe I'm just, I don't know if I'm reading this properly when I see it,

Lex Fridman (2:10:30.440)

but it seems to me that, like you said, that flip the bird, I'm going to do me within reason.

Ryan Hall (2:10:37.640)

As long as I'm not hurting you, is idea that very much, at least in my mind, defines the

Ryan Hall (2:10:43.800)

American ideal or at least part of the consciousness of the United States is under attack to a

Ryan Hall (2:10:48.600)

certain extent.

Ryan Hall (2:10:50.600)

If only I can think to maybe a generation behind us, it's becoming more collectivist

Ryan Hall (2:10:59.240)

for all the good and also the not good of that.

Lex Fridman (2:11:01.480)

And it's not in terms of policy at this point, but just in terms of consciousness.

Lex Fridman (2:11:08.600)

And I wonder if that's an internet thing.

Ryan Hall (2:11:10.920)

People are more in touch with one another than they've, as far as I can tell, have ever

Ryan Hall (2:11:14.360)

been, or at least more than in my lifetime.

Lex Fridman (2:11:16.520)

And the rest of the world seems much closer than it did.

Ryan Hall (2:11:20.760)

Living in Virginia, California seems very far away.

Lex Fridman (2:11:23.480)

Being on the internet, it's just right there.

Ryan Hall (2:11:25.080)

I can hear about it.

Lex Fridman (2:11:25.800)

I can see it.

Ryan Hall (2:11:26.840)

I can interact with people from there.

Ryan Hall (2:11:29.720)

I remember being in Tennessee at one time and reading about events taking place in the

Ryan Hall (2:11:37.800)

Middle East.

Lex Fridman (2:11:38.520)

And that just seemed like a mile away.

Ryan Hall (2:11:40.520)

It seemed like an unbelievably far distance.

Lex Fridman (2:11:43.160)

And then another time when you're in DC, you just feel like, oh, you read about something

Ryan Hall (2:11:45.800)

happening in Paris.

Lex Fridman (2:11:46.520)

And it just feels like it's just right around the corner because DC is a seat of power where

Ryan Hall (2:11:51.160)

things are just occurring all the time.

Lex Fridman (2:11:52.520)

And I guess you wonder about that's where I come back to the group decisions to not

Ryan Hall (2:12:01.000)

listen to this person or to cancel this.

Ryan Hall (2:12:03.800)

We all, the moral majority, shall do the following as opposed to as long as you're not hurting

Ryan Hall (2:12:08.280)

me and as long as you're not hurting anyone else, I have to let you do, I have to let

Lex Fridman (2:12:12.760)

you be on general principle.

Ryan Hall (2:12:14.040)

Even if I don't like you, I'm very free to not like you.

Ryan Hall (2:12:16.040)

I'm free to speak out against you, but I'm not, it is not within my right or, and not

Ryan Hall (2:12:20.760)

with it.

Lex Fridman (2:12:21.080)

And it's not, I would not be right to attempt to attack you.

Lex Fridman (2:12:25.640)

And that is an interesting thing though, when we see words being redefined or words being

Ryan Hall (2:12:29.560)

defined, whether it's toxicity, whether it's violence, if I think that what you're saying

Ryan Hall (2:12:33.640)

is your speech is by itself a violence or a precursor to violence, I'm justified in

Lex Fridman (2:12:39.320)

doing all sorts of things.

Lex Fridman (2:12:41.800)

And that creeps me out significantly because again, even if it ends up being pointed in

Lex Fridman (2:12:47.000)

a good direction initially, it's only a matter of time.

Lex Fridman (2:12:49.880)

And actually that brings me to another, yeah, I got all day.

Lex Fridman (2:12:54.840)

How much are they paying you?

Lex Fridman (2:12:57.080)

But we about say the Frank Herbert estate, not enough frankly, let's see.

Lex Fridman (2:13:02.920)

And how many books are there in Dune?

Ryan Hall (2:13:05.160)

That's a Jen question.

Lex Fridman (2:13:07.240)

You're also a fan of Dune?

Ryan Hall (2:13:08.680)

I read the whole series, but not a couple of the, I read all the prequels as well with

Lex Fridman (2:13:15.240)

the exception of a couple.

Lex Fridman (2:13:16.520)

Is there a book one for Dune?

Lex Fridman (2:13:18.680)

Dune would be book one.

Lex Fridman (2:13:20.520)

And even the prequels, it's still all better if you start, like I read Dune and then read

Lex Fridman (2:13:25.320)

the original, what is it?

Ryan Hall (2:13:27.000)

Six.

Lex Fridman (2:13:27.480)

And then I went back and started to read some of the books.

Lex Fridman (2:13:29.400)

Just like watching Star Wars, you want to start episode four or whatever?

Lex Fridman (2:13:34.040)

Yeah, I think so.

Ryan Hall (2:13:35.800)

That's the move and then stop at six, call it a day, watch The Mandalorian.

Lex Fridman (2:13:40.520)

Well, I thought you're not walking back here.

Ryan Hall (2:13:42.520)

No, I like The Mandalorian.

Lex Fridman (2:13:43.960)

No, it's not The Mandalorian.

Ryan Hall (2:13:44.920)

That is what I said.

Lex Fridman (2:13:47.000)

I was told that I was heartless for not liking Baby Yoda, who I...

Ryan Hall (2:13:49.720)

We don't talk about a couple of the movies, not including The Mandalorian.

Lex Fridman (2:13:54.120)

The Mandalorian is fine.

Ryan Hall (2:13:55.480)

It's the more recent movies that we don't like to talk about.

Lex Fridman (2:13:58.280)

Oh, the...

Lex Fridman (2:13:59.880)

What's his name?

Lex Fridman (2:14:00.840)

The goofy guy.

Ryan Hall (2:14:02.280)

Ryan.

Lex Fridman (2:14:03.000)

No, no.

Ryan Hall (2:14:04.280)

No, the creature, the goofy creature with the...

Lex Fridman (2:14:06.120)

Jar Jar?

Ryan Hall (2:14:06.680)

Yeah, Jar Jar.

Lex Fridman (2:14:07.560)

Do you ever see the Jar Jar Binks is actually like the Dark Lord of the Sith theory?

Ryan Hall (2:14:12.600)

That fixed the whole initial trilogy where he's goofing around and making it all the

Lex Fridman (2:14:16.760)

way through battles.

Lex Fridman (2:14:17.560)

And when you're like, wait a minute, he oops his way, walks over to a pool, does a triple

Lex Fridman (2:14:21.000)

backflip, falls in, you're like, it's just bizarre that you...

Ryan Hall (2:14:24.600)

This is the Alex Jones theory of Star Wars.

Lex Fridman (2:14:27.880)

He's actually running everything.

Ryan Hall (2:14:29.400)

He was the one that actually was like, hey, we should vote in Chancellor Palpatine, or

Lex Fridman (2:14:34.040)

Senator Palpatine, right before they put Jar Jar in charge.

Lex Fridman (2:14:37.000)

First off, what did they think was gonna happen?

Lex Fridman (2:14:38.600)

And second off, I just think that'd be great.

Ryan Hall (2:14:41.400)

You're like, oops, oh man, I guess he's the emperor now.

Lex Fridman (2:14:43.960)

That would have been great.

Lex Fridman (2:14:44.840)

But actually, to the cancel and all the other stuff, again, you'd hope that it gives pause.

Lex Fridman (2:14:49.960)

And I think about this for fighting, because a lot of times...

Ryan Hall (2:14:51.880)

I'll use this as an example, people fight fans in UFC, they love people that run out

Lex Fridman (2:14:57.320)

and try to murder each other.

Lex Fridman (2:14:58.600)

And it's entertaining, and it's super entertaining.

Lex Fridman (2:15:01.560)

But Floyd Mayweather doesn't resonate with people as much.

Ryan Hall (2:15:05.160)

It's like people start...

Lex Fridman (2:15:06.040)

I remember the time when Floyd was not as popular.

Ryan Hall (2:15:07.880)

Now people think people love Floyd because he's 50 and oh Floyd.

Lex Fridman (2:15:11.320)

And oh man, and finally he had so much success that we all can't help but recognize the man's

Ryan Hall (2:15:15.480)

genius and greatness.

Lex Fridman (2:15:16.680)

But prior to that, oh, he's boring, he's this, he's that.

Ryan Hall (2:15:19.320)

He fights with his circumspect, he's cautious, he's pressing.

Lex Fridman (2:15:23.880)

He's intelligent, deeply intelligent.

Lex Fridman (2:15:26.600)

And when you watch people go out and try to murder each other, you can flip a coin 100

Ryan Hall (2:15:30.920)

times and you could be lucky enough to get 100 heads, but it's still a coin flip.

Lex Fridman (2:15:35.640)

And I think that that's what's going on all the time is people are getting an outcome

Lex Fridman (2:15:40.120)

that they want, but it wasn't a well thought out situation.

Ryan Hall (2:15:42.600)

That's why you'll win by five in a row by knockout and then lose three in a row.

Lex Fridman (2:15:46.360)

And then people will go, well, what happened to that guy?

Ryan Hall (2:15:48.040)

He used to be so great.

Lex Fridman (2:15:49.000)

And you're like, no, he's doing what he's always been doing.

Ryan Hall (2:15:51.000)

It's just, it was getting great outcomes on a coin flip prior, and it's getting negative

Lex Fridman (2:15:54.920)

outcomes on a coin flip now.

Lex Fridman (2:15:56.520)

But I guess what I would say is it watches, it's interesting watching, I guess, societal

Ryan Hall (2:16:03.320)

beliefs become such a thing that we're almost adopting on a religious level if we're not

Ryan Hall (2:16:08.120)

careful.

Ryan Hall (2:16:08.920)

If when I say religious level, I mean like pan life, like this is guiding all of my

Ryan Hall (2:16:13.400)

choices for all the good and the bad of that.

Lex Fridman (2:16:15.160)

And this is a Dune quote is, when religion and politics travel in the same cart, the

Ryan Hall (2:16:18.600)

writers believe that nothing can stand in their way.

Lex Fridman (2:16:21.000)

Their movements become headlong faster and faster and faster.

Ryan Hall (2:16:24.280)

They put aside all thoughts of obstacles and forget that the precipice does not show itself

Lex Fridman (2:16:28.200)

to the man in the blind rush until it's too late.

Lex Fridman (2:16:31.160)

And I think that that's, again, the pause.

Lex Fridman (2:16:33.480)

We go, oh man, thank goodness we have this guy that wants to rebuild Germany.

Ryan Hall (2:16:36.360)

He'll put us back where we need to be.

Lex Fridman (2:16:38.600)

And you stop questioning your own judgment, your own, you stop thinking essentially.

Ryan Hall (2:16:45.160)

Right.

Lex Fridman (2:16:45.320)

I'm not allowed to question this.

Ryan Hall (2:16:47.000)

Of course this is correct.

Lex Fridman (2:16:47.880)

Of course, of course I'm right.

Ryan Hall (2:16:49.320)

I intended to do right.

Lex Fridman (2:16:50.440)

So of course my actions are correct.

Ryan Hall (2:16:52.120)

I mean, how many times have any of us intended to do something helpful and ended up doing

Lex Fridman (2:16:55.960)

something less?

Lex Fridman (2:16:57.080)

And plenty of people who intend to do harm could by accident do something decent.

Lex Fridman (2:17:01.720)

And I guess it's, I'm not saying anything terribly, terribly insightful, but it's just

Ryan Hall (2:17:07.640)

one of those where it's hard to say in the moment.

Lex Fridman (2:17:10.600)

And that's where you hopefully caution, you would counsel some degree of caution.

Lex Fridman (2:17:14.680)

And that's what worries me with people deciding that we're all so right about this or we're

Ryan Hall (2:17:20.680)

all so right about that and attempting to rather than win the argument, silence the

Ryan Hall (2:17:25.800)

counter argument, no matter how crazy it may seem.

Ryan Hall (2:17:28.600)

Because I just think that that idea, even when it's pointed in a good direction initially,

Ryan Hall (2:17:31.800)

it's only a matter of time.

Lex Fridman (2:17:34.120)

You're amongst many things, a Jiu Jitsu black belt.

Ryan Hall (2:17:39.800)

One of the things that people are really curious about white belts and blue belts in Jiu Jitsu,

Lex Fridman (2:17:44.920)

but also people haven't tried the art is what does it take to be a Jiu Jitsu black belt?

Ryan Hall (2:17:51.080)

I think that, you know, everyone's journey is a little bit different, but the one thing

Ryan Hall (2:17:54.840)

that the, it was a Calvin Coolidge quote, you know, determination, persistence is the

Ryan Hall (2:18:00.920)

only thing that will win in the end.

Lex Fridman (2:18:03.480)

It will always win in the end.

Ryan Hall (2:18:05.080)

Not brilliance, not toughness, not education, it's persistence.

Lex Fridman (2:18:10.200)

And I think that having the belief that no matter what happens to me, I will proceed

Ryan Hall (2:18:15.160)

forward and I will figure out how to make this happen, hell or high water, I think is

Ryan Hall (2:18:19.240)

the one thing that ties together all of the people that I've ever met that made it through

Ryan Hall (2:18:23.880)

whatever it was that they were going through.

Ryan Hall (2:18:25.880)

Because, you know, sometimes you can get lucky and you can have an easy time or and that

Ryan Hall (2:18:31.000)

luck could be you had a good situation.

Ryan Hall (2:18:32.760)

It could be, I mean, like in the obvious sense of like where you're living, where you're

Ryan Hall (2:18:35.720)

training, what's going on, you had a good situation, you're unbelievably athletic.

Ryan Hall (2:18:39.640)

Oh, you're going to be an astronaut, you're brilliant and an Olympic athlete, you know,

Ryan Hall (2:18:43.320)

like, well, that's a fantastic situation.

Ryan Hall (2:18:45.240)

You know, you won the genetic lottery and I'm sure you worked hard as well, but you

Ryan Hall (2:18:48.120)

also won the genetic lottery.

Ryan Hall (2:18:49.800)

It's a determination is the one thing, though, because that person could have a very easy

Ryan Hall (2:18:55.080)

go of it initially and then tear their knee.

Lex Fridman (2:18:57.240)

And then they're no longer the superhuman physical specimen that they were.

Ryan Hall (2:19:01.720)

The only thing that will keep them going is persistence.

Lex Fridman (2:19:04.520)

And I think that that I would just say that persistence to say I'll just put one foot

Ryan Hall (2:19:09.800)

in front of the other.

Lex Fridman (2:19:10.600)

And sometimes I can see the path ahead and sometimes it's beyond my vision, but I will

Ryan Hall (2:19:15.080)

not stop.

Lex Fridman (2:19:15.960)

I may even slow down, but I won't stop.

Lex Fridman (2:19:18.440)

And that's the only thing that I can say that I've seen tie everyone together because there's

Lex Fridman (2:19:22.680)

so many ways to the top of any mountain and there's so many different personalities and

Ryan Hall (2:19:26.440)

skills and backgrounds involved.

Lex Fridman (2:19:28.760)

But everyone, everyone carries on.

Lex Fridman (2:19:31.720)

So at the core, the foundational advice is just don't quit.

Lex Fridman (2:19:35.400)

Just keep going.

Ryan Hall (2:19:36.120)

That's the lesson of martial arts.

Lex Fridman (2:19:37.480)

I think, you know, we think it's like how to be strong or how to be how to win.

Lex Fridman (2:19:42.040)

But in reality, it's like how to persist, how to endure, because it's all of us have

Ryan Hall (2:19:45.960)

been beaten so many times and gotten beaten up so many times and thought about quitting.

Lex Fridman (2:19:49.800)

Have I ever thought about quitting?

Lex Fridman (2:19:51.000)

Absolutely.

Lex Fridman (2:19:51.720)

Have I ever quit?

Lex Fridman (2:19:52.600)

Never.

Ryan Hall (2:19:52.920)

I will never, ever quit ever.

Lex Fridman (2:19:55.160)

I can say that you might not me out.

Ryan Hall (2:19:56.200)

I won't be damned if I quit.

Lex Fridman (2:19:57.880)

What's the darkest moment?

Lex Fridman (2:19:59.080)

Is it injury related?

Ryan Hall (2:20:00.280)

Like, is it, uh, so like, to me, like two possibilities, I've fortunately never been

Ryan Hall (2:20:07.640)

seriously injured, but I think that's a dark place to be like having to be out for many

Ryan Hall (2:20:13.320)

months, uh, for, um, as Jen was saying, like with a head injury, especially like the uncertainty

Ryan Hall (2:20:22.040)

that's one.

Lex Fridman (2:20:22.840)

And then the other side is if you have big ambitions as a competitor, realizing that

Ryan Hall (2:20:29.880)

you're not as good, like those, those doubts were like, I kind of suck.

Lex Fridman (2:20:37.000)

How am I supposed to be a world?

Ryan Hall (2:20:39.000)

The greatest fighter of all time.

Ryan Hall (2:20:41.080)

If I, if, if like several people in the gym are kicking my ass, those are the two things

Ryan Hall (2:20:47.320)

that paralyze you.

Ryan Hall (2:20:48.680)

I think that everyone's darkest moment is maybe different looking from the outside for

Ryan Hall (2:20:55.400)

Ryan.

Lex Fridman (2:20:55.720)

I wouldn't say that he's had injuries and he's had bad ones.

Ryan Hall (2:20:58.360)

I wouldn't say that was his darkest moment.

Lex Fridman (2:21:00.680)

I think for me, I would say some of my head injury was my darkest moment.

Ryan Hall (2:21:06.120)

Absolutely.

Lex Fridman (2:21:06.600)

And I've torn my ACL twice.

Ryan Hall (2:21:08.440)

I've torn my shoulders four times.

Lex Fridman (2:21:09.800)

I've had lots of surgeries.

Ryan Hall (2:21:11.960)

For me, the orthopedic injuries were not the most difficult.

Lex Fridman (2:21:17.560)

It was the brain injury for others that might be the case for them.

Ryan Hall (2:21:21.000)

Maybe they've never experienced an injury and maybe for them, that's their darkest moment

Ryan Hall (2:21:25.720)

from the outside, obviously Ryan can speak to this more, but for Ryan, I think it was

Ryan Hall (2:21:30.040)

the inability to, to perform at certain points to the upper, the missing of opportunities

Ryan Hall (2:21:37.080)

that for him, from my perspective, watching him go through and having seen various points

Ryan Hall (2:21:41.640)

of his growth from, from early purple belt on, I think the hardest time for him looking

Ryan Hall (2:21:46.680)

in obviously was when he would hit moments where he wasn't able to perform for various

Ryan Hall (2:21:53.400)

reasons.

Lex Fridman (2:21:53.720)

He couldn't get fights.

Ryan Hall (2:21:54.600)

He, he was having difficulties there.

Lex Fridman (2:21:57.000)

I think that that was the hardest point for him.

Ryan Hall (2:21:59.960)

Did you, did you think like with the head injury that you might not, never be able to

Lex Fridman (2:22:04.120)

jujitsu again?

Ryan Hall (2:22:05.240)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (2:22:05.480)

I mean, I, I, mine was very, was really bad and it was just the one hit, but I had a looping

Ryan Hall (2:22:11.720)

memories for seven months.

Ryan Hall (2:22:13.000)

Didn't know it because when your brain's messed up, you're not even aware that you're

Ryan Hall (2:22:16.200)

looping.

Lex Fridman (2:22:17.880)

And so I saw two different neurologists.

Ryan Hall (2:22:21.640)

I finally, like it took a very long time.

Ryan Hall (2:22:23.400)

I didn't know if I was going to be able to have like linear thoughts or read a book.

Ryan Hall (2:22:27.640)

I didn't know at certain points if I could listen to music again, you know, without it

Lex Fridman (2:22:31.720)

making my head hurt.

Lex Fridman (2:22:33.480)

And so it was almost two years before I woke up in the morning without a headache.

Lex Fridman (2:22:39.880)

Just waking up before I even start my day.

Lex Fridman (2:22:41.960)

And so that's even bigger than jujitsu.

Lex Fridman (2:22:44.200)

That's just life.

Ryan Hall (2:22:45.000)

That's just, that's just hard.

Lex Fridman (2:22:46.840)

And I think that you can experience so many things.

Ryan Hall (2:22:50.120)

I've had all these injuries.

Lex Fridman (2:22:53.640)

We lost a baby when I was 15, 15 weeks.

Lex Fridman (2:22:56.920)

And we've had all these experiences and what the hardest point for me, not saying all those

Lex Fridman (2:23:02.840)

things weren't hard, but it's kind of like, well, did you go through these?

Ryan Hall (2:23:05.800)

You just realize like life goes on and you have to keep working at it and you have to

Lex Fridman (2:23:09.480)

keep going.

Lex Fridman (2:23:09.960)

And you asked me earlier offline, did I feel depressed and not for my head injury.

Lex Fridman (2:23:16.440)

I don't think that at least in the moment I had a, any recognition of that.

Ryan Hall (2:23:20.840)

It's kind of like, but I think different people's personalities.

Lex Fridman (2:23:24.040)

I have kind of the like buckle down and just keep going.

Lex Fridman (2:23:27.960)

And sometimes it's not until lots of time later that you realize, wow, that was really

Ryan Hall (2:23:32.760)

hard because you're just struggling to live and function and do the things that you need

Ryan Hall (2:23:37.160)

to do along the way.

Lex Fridman (2:23:37.720)

Do you mind jumping on just like this part of the conversation just for a few minutes?

Lex Fridman (2:23:42.440)

Do you mind, you know, just sitting together?

Lex Fridman (2:23:45.480)

Oh, not at all.

Ryan Hall (2:23:46.920)

Just for a little bit, it'd be cool if we put a face to it, you know, is it okay with

Lex Fridman (2:23:53.560)

you?

Ryan Hall (2:23:53.800)

Yeah, it's fine with me.

Lex Fridman (2:23:54.680)

It's fine with you.

Lex Fridman (2:23:56.280)

By the way, what was the head injury?

Lex Fridman (2:23:58.040)

If you don't mind sharing.

Ryan Hall (2:23:59.320)

Someone had dropped their knee on the back of my head during training.

Lex Fridman (2:24:02.280)

It was a lot bigger than me.

Lex Fridman (2:24:04.200)

So one strike to the back of the head is too much for someone.

Lex Fridman (2:24:09.480)

There's a reason that's outlawed in MMA, right?

Ryan Hall (2:24:11.320)

Someone 50 pounds heavier than you dropped their knee on the back of your head once.

Lex Fridman (2:24:14.120)

And it's the funny thing about getting hit, right?

Ryan Hall (2:24:16.760)

You never can really be sure what's going to happen.

Ryan Hall (2:24:19.400)

I think it's actually one of the magical parts about jiu jitsu where, like, if you choke

Ryan Hall (2:24:22.520)

me, if we know what's going to occur, you hit someone, they might be completely unharmed.

Ryan Hall (2:24:29.080)

You might be punching Tony Ferguson in the face and you need to hit him with a sledge

Ryan Hall (2:24:32.760)

hammer to affect this man.

Lex Fridman (2:24:34.280)

And then other people, they could get really badly hurt, which I guess it's back to your

Ryan Hall (2:24:37.960)

point about street fighting and things like that and serious, serious potential, second,

Lex Fridman (2:24:42.600)

third order consequences of any action that we take.

Lex Fridman (2:24:45.320)

But yeah, that's a tricky thing about getting hit.

Lex Fridman (2:24:48.120)

How does it make you feel that, like the really shitty thing about injuries to me was that

Ryan Hall (2:24:54.440)

like you start thinking like, well, if I did this one little thing different, like this

Lex Fridman (2:25:00.440)

wouldn't have happened today.

Ryan Hall (2:25:01.640)

Like one moment changes your entire life.

Lex Fridman (2:25:05.160)

Is that, do you think that way or is that totally counterproductive?

Ryan Hall (2:25:09.720)

You can't help but think that way when you've had the amount of injuries I've had, because

Lex Fridman (2:25:14.520)

I've had more than most people's fair share.

Ryan Hall (2:25:18.200)

As my orthopedic says, you don't want to win that.

Lex Fridman (2:25:20.760)

You don't want to win the contest of who's had the most.

Lex Fridman (2:25:23.160)

But since you have, you're building me a pool.

Ryan Hall (2:25:25.240)

Yeah, but I think you can't help but think that way sometimes, but I definitely don't

Ryan Hall (2:25:30.840)

think it's, I think it can be facilitated if you don't beat yourself up too much.

Ryan Hall (2:25:34.920)

Because thinking about why have I been subject to so many injuries and a lot of it comes

Ryan Hall (2:25:41.960)

to just almost all of mine in particular are people a lot heavier than me.

Lex Fridman (2:25:47.320)

But if I've been training martial arts 15 years, I'm obviously on the much smaller side.

Ryan Hall (2:25:51.400)

I'm a woman.

Ryan Hall (2:25:52.120)

I've done thousands and thousands of rounds with people 50 pounds plus heavier than me.

Ryan Hall (2:25:57.800)

I've been years not training with anyone less than 50 pounds, which is 50 pounds is almost

Lex Fridman (2:26:01.640)

half my body weight.

Lex Fridman (2:26:02.760)

And when you also add testosterone, the natural physiological advantages of men, not just

Ryan Hall (2:26:08.040)

are they heavier with more mass, they're faster, they're more explosive, they're stronger

Ryan Hall (2:26:12.120)

if they're the same size.

Lex Fridman (2:26:13.640)

And so I think that the willingness to be in that environment over and over and over

Ryan Hall (2:26:19.880)

again creates a lot of strength, resiliency, willingness to continue.

Lex Fridman (2:26:23.640)

But it also like in order to do that, you almost have to, for me, the way I was approaching

Ryan Hall (2:26:31.400)

it was like pretend like I wasn't more vulnerable and just be willing to step in and step in

Lex Fridman (2:26:37.800)

and step in until you make it kind of thing until you make it kind of.

Ryan Hall (2:26:40.760)

Yeah, like I'll just one day I'll be strong enough.

Lex Fridman (2:26:43.560)

And you avoided injury for most, for most of those rounds, I would enjoy the problem

Ryan Hall (2:26:48.600)

as Ryan points out is that like you could do thousands of rounds, but if one person

Ryan Hall (2:26:52.520)

that size, that strength, that hover reacts in a way that you don't expect, it doesn't

Ryan Hall (2:26:57.320)

it's not like an oops, it's like always major.

Lex Fridman (2:26:59.560)

Do you regret any of it?

Ryan Hall (2:27:02.520)

I think that most no one I know has experienced the degree of injuries that I've experienced.

Lex Fridman (2:27:07.720)

And I started just at a time when 2005 is very different than now where you have the

Ryan Hall (2:27:13.480)

coaches have more control over what you're doing.

Lex Fridman (2:27:15.800)

They're more aware in general about a lot of the injuries.

Ryan Hall (2:27:19.160)

There's a lot more people who are hobbyists than when I started.

Ryan Hall (2:27:25.560)

They were hobbyists, but it was different kind of hobbyists, you know, than now.

Ryan Hall (2:27:29.640)

Now, our girls can train with other girls.

Ryan Hall (2:27:32.680)

They don't have to do thousands of rounds with somebody significantly more powerful

Ryan Hall (2:27:36.920)

than them.

Lex Fridman (2:27:37.960)

And for the drawbacks and the benefits of that, you know, as with anything.

Lex Fridman (2:27:43.800)

So I think I think that I don't think I would go back and change it.

Ryan Hall (2:27:49.960)

There were times after one of my injuries where I said to Ryan, I said, I quit, I'm

Ryan Hall (2:27:54.440)

done.

Lex Fridman (2:27:55.720)

I'm not doing this anymore.

Ryan Hall (2:27:56.760)

I probably said it more than once, but there was one time I was really serious in 2012.

Lex Fridman (2:28:01.960)

I was really serious.

Ryan Hall (2:28:03.080)

I tore my shoulder.

Ryan Hall (2:28:04.120)

I had I was looking at missing a big competition again in the world for my second or third

Ryan Hall (2:28:08.520)

year in a row after injuries.

Lex Fridman (2:28:09.800)

And I said, I'd quit my job two years before.

Lex Fridman (2:28:12.360)

And I'm like, I'm done.

Lex Fridman (2:28:14.920)

And Ryan, before that had always been, you know, keep me focused.

Lex Fridman (2:28:19.080)

And then he kind of said, OK, if you want to be done, be done.

Lex Fridman (2:28:21.560)

Just just have a good time.

Ryan Hall (2:28:23.800)

No, I'm really done.

Lex Fridman (2:28:25.000)

I don't want to train anymore.

Ryan Hall (2:28:27.000)

OK, OK.

Lex Fridman (2:28:28.040)

And then, you know, I think he helped facilitate a moment for me to go visit a friend, some

Ryan Hall (2:28:34.920)

friends, some girls that were doing a girls camp who are close to my size or some friends

Lex Fridman (2:28:38.680)

of mine to go train.

Lex Fridman (2:28:39.720)

And I was like, oh, wait, I do love this thing.

Ryan Hall (2:28:42.120)

It's harder for me on a daily basis, but that doesn't mean I don't love this thing.

Lex Fridman (2:28:46.200)

And it really helped change my mind.

Ryan Hall (2:28:47.720)

I started to connect with other people, travel more myself because previously he had done

Ryan Hall (2:28:52.440)

that, but I hadn't really done that.

Lex Fridman (2:28:54.760)

I think there was a point where when I started YouTube, it was just for fun.

Ryan Hall (2:28:58.840)

I just wanted to sport after college.

Lex Fridman (2:29:00.440)

I played sports as a kid.

Ryan Hall (2:29:01.560)

I want to just want to exercise.

Lex Fridman (2:29:03.160)

I wasn't into the martial arts.

Ryan Hall (2:29:04.440)

He used to give me a hard time about it because he was always very, how can you not care about

Lex Fridman (2:29:07.480)

martial arts?

Ryan Hall (2:29:08.040)

I don't know.

Lex Fridman (2:29:08.840)

I just want to play sports.

Lex Fridman (2:29:11.080)

And Ryan was really big into kind of the philosophy side of the martial arts aspect.

Lex Fridman (2:29:16.040)

He used to give me a hard time.

Lex Fridman (2:29:17.000)

And I think after that moment, this moment where I looked at myself and I said, do I

Lex Fridman (2:29:20.280)

want to keep doing this, is when I started to appreciate jiu jitsu.

Ryan Hall (2:29:24.120)

It took off some of the pressure I'd been feeling, I think, as Ryan's girlfriend.

Lex Fridman (2:29:28.120)

But I had a full time job a long time.

Ryan Hall (2:29:29.960)

It was never my goal to be a jiu jitsu world champion.

Lex Fridman (2:29:33.320)

And I think after that moment where I was like, you know, I really do like this.

Ryan Hall (2:29:37.480)

I really do want to do this.

Lex Fridman (2:29:38.520)

I had this moment like any time where you're like, I'm doing this for me.

Ryan Hall (2:29:41.320)

I'm not doing this for him.

Lex Fridman (2:29:42.760)

And I think that that was really lucky for me because how often in our lives,

Ryan Hall (2:29:50.200)

do we have a kind of a challenge where we have to stop and we have to say, is this really

Lex Fridman (2:29:54.520)

what I want?

Lex Fridman (2:29:55.480)

How often in a relationship do you do that?

Lex Fridman (2:29:57.160)

How often in any type of lifestyle or job do you stop and do you really ask yourself,

Ryan Hall (2:30:02.120)

is something really difficult happened that you look and you go, am I just doing this

Lex Fridman (2:30:06.520)

because it's convenient and easy?

Lex Fridman (2:30:08.040)

Or is this what I really want to do?

Lex Fridman (2:30:09.800)

Yeah, I've had those moments.

Ryan Hall (2:30:11.480)

Like this podcast is one of those things.

Lex Fridman (2:30:13.720)

It's like you stop and think like, I actually love this.

Lex Fridman (2:30:20.120)

And it's, I had that with jiu jitsu too.

Lex Fridman (2:30:23.640)

I don't think I had said until like brown belt that I stop.

Ryan Hall (2:30:28.440)

I mean, yeah, it's when you first face real challenges, you think like, why am I doing

Lex Fridman (2:30:33.400)

this?

Lex Fridman (2:30:34.760)

I think most of my progression was why not?

Lex Fridman (2:30:38.520)

I think that's the right, the leap of faith.

Lex Fridman (2:30:40.600)

And then at a certain point you think like, why am I doing this?

Lex Fridman (2:30:45.080)

And if you can answer, honestly, that because I love it, it's kind of a liberating feeling.

Ryan Hall (2:30:50.920)

It's a, yeah, it's so powerful.

Lex Fridman (2:30:53.720)

It's an acceptance.

Lex Fridman (2:30:54.760)

Then you feel thankful for the opportunity to be there, right?

Lex Fridman (2:30:57.480)

Because you love it.

Lex Fridman (2:30:58.120)

And you go, man, this is great gratitude.

Lex Fridman (2:31:00.520)

Yeah, it's ultimately gratitude.

Ryan Hall (2:31:02.760)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:31:03.400)

Let me ask you this.

Lex Fridman (2:31:04.440)

So Ryan said like, what is it?

Lex Fridman (2:31:06.440)

I took over your thing.

Ryan Hall (2:31:07.560)

Yeah, nobody cares about Ryan.

Lex Fridman (2:31:10.680)

I wouldn't do that.

Ryan Hall (2:31:11.800)

I'll Photoshop him out or whatever.

Lex Fridman (2:31:13.240)

However you do that, it'd be great.

Ryan Hall (2:31:14.840)

Put Sean Connery's head.

Lex Fridman (2:31:16.360)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (2:31:17.560)

Just like a Dune ad over there.

Lex Fridman (2:31:19.560)

Exactly.

Ryan Hall (2:31:21.080)

Sean Connery, I could get down on that.

Lex Fridman (2:31:23.480)

Is that the sexiest man in Sean Connery?

Lex Fridman (2:31:26.200)

In the Dune universe?

Lex Fridman (2:31:27.160)

That's my understanding.

Ryan Hall (2:31:28.040)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (2:31:28.760)

I think in any universe.

Ryan Hall (2:31:30.520)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:31:31.000)

Well, Myron Gosling, give him.

Ryan Hall (2:31:32.360)

We actually named our son after Sean Connery.

Lex Fridman (2:31:34.760)

Oh, yeah.

Ryan Hall (2:31:35.080)

That's right.

Lex Fridman (2:31:35.480)

We did.

Ryan Hall (2:31:39.240)

He was in The Rock.

Lex Fridman (2:31:40.120)

That was, I love all those lame.

Ryan Hall (2:31:42.760)

Nicolas Cage.

Lex Fridman (2:31:43.720)

Oh, yeah.

Ryan Hall (2:31:44.360)

Connery is probably the greatest movie of all time.

Lex Fridman (2:31:46.760)

Dude, his accent in Connery was so awesome.

Ryan Hall (2:31:49.160)

I don't know where it's from.

Lex Fridman (2:31:50.120)

Alabama, I guess, or something.

Ryan Hall (2:31:51.560)

I love that they got like Steve Buscemi in there.

Lex Fridman (2:31:53.320)

Like we need Steve Buscemi in this thing.

Ryan Hall (2:31:54.840)

We got him.

Lex Fridman (2:31:55.480)

Dave Chappelle.

Ryan Hall (2:31:56.760)

Yeah, that's right.

Lex Fridman (2:31:57.560)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (2:31:57.800)

He's a prisoner in there.

Lex Fridman (2:31:58.840)

Eight ball.

Ryan Hall (2:32:00.600)

Yep.

Lex Fridman (2:32:01.080)

Greatest movie of all time.

Ryan Hall (2:32:02.600)

Should have won an Oscar.

Lex Fridman (2:32:03.240)

Dave Chappelle also in Blue Street with Martin Lawrence.

Lex Fridman (2:32:06.760)

And then, what do you call it?

Lex Fridman (2:32:08.040)

Robin Hood Men in Tights.

Ryan Hall (2:32:09.000)

Oh, Robin Hood Men in Tights was one of my favorites as a kid.

Lex Fridman (2:32:11.320)

Half baked.

Lex Fridman (2:32:11.880)

But yeah, that's a good.

Lex Fridman (2:32:16.440)

Wow.

Ryan Hall (2:32:16.840)

We just listed off some really bad 90s movies, but.

Lex Fridman (2:32:19.720)

You take that back.

Ryan Hall (2:32:20.760)

For telling our age.

Lex Fridman (2:32:23.160)

Speak yourself.

Lex Fridman (2:32:24.760)

So what, like in your view, I don't mean to, from like a smaller person, I guess.

Lex Fridman (2:32:30.440)

That's an interesting thing about Jiu Jitsu is like that small.

Ryan Hall (2:32:34.600)

I don't, I hope, hopefully it's not a bad thing.

Lex Fridman (2:32:38.440)

Elf.

Ryan Hall (2:32:40.120)

Elves are taller.

Lex Fridman (2:32:41.640)

Like with all these like bigger people, you could still enjoy the art.

Lex Fridman (2:32:47.880)

Like what does it take to get a black belt to excel, to quote unquote, master the art?

Lex Fridman (2:32:54.040)

Gosh, everyone has such a different path.

Ryan Hall (2:32:55.800)

Ryan's promoted six, seven people.

Lex Fridman (2:32:59.000)

Something like that.

Lex Fridman (2:32:59.560)

And I think about half of them have had kids, have families, have other careers.

Lex Fridman (2:33:08.040)

At the time, some of them competed a lot.

Ryan Hall (2:33:10.280)

Some of them have never competed or rarely competed.

Lex Fridman (2:33:13.240)

Some haven't competed in a long time.

Ryan Hall (2:33:15.560)

Some had started different places.

Lex Fridman (2:33:17.560)

Everyone's had different journeys, even in our own little group of seven.

Ryan Hall (2:33:22.520)

I think only maybe only two or three were high level competitors of that group.

Lex Fridman (2:33:28.600)

At the higher belts, right, like brown, black, maybe.

Lex Fridman (2:33:32.760)

And so it's just different for every person.

Lex Fridman (2:33:35.640)

And that's something that we try to tell our students.

Ryan Hall (2:33:37.720)

We have 400 students.

Lex Fridman (2:33:39.480)

And do we have this?

Ryan Hall (2:33:41.800)

We don't really have anyone who's a stated other than like the coaches like Adam,

Lex Fridman (2:33:47.720)

but we don't have anyone who's like a stated high level competitor as a student at the moment.

Ryan Hall (2:33:51.560)

People look at our gym and go, it's lots of competitors.

Lex Fridman (2:33:53.480)

It's not lots of competitors.

Ryan Hall (2:33:54.520)

It's never been lots of competitors.

Lex Fridman (2:33:57.160)

And we've had ones and twos here and there.

Lex Fridman (2:34:00.040)

But really everybody's in it for the long term if they're in it.

Ryan Hall (2:34:03.800)

Sometimes the high level competitors are the ones that are more likely to drop off

Ryan Hall (2:34:07.000)

because they have a bit of success, particularly at blue or purple.

Lex Fridman (2:34:10.760)

And then they realize how hard it is at brown and black.

Lex Fridman (2:34:13.000)

And then they have a hard time continuing on that path.

Lex Fridman (2:34:16.440)

And then they can't look at themselves as a noncompetitor.

Ryan Hall (2:34:18.680)

They have a hard time continuing with Jiu Jitsu, I think.

Ryan Hall (2:34:21.320)

Whereas sometimes it's the guy who comes in as a white belt and he trains twice a week,

Ryan Hall (2:34:26.120)

twice a week, every week.

Lex Fridman (2:34:27.320)

And the next thing you know, he's been there for two or three years.

Ryan Hall (2:34:29.800)

Like, oh, he's a blue belt.

Lex Fridman (2:34:30.760)

He's a purple belt.

Ryan Hall (2:34:31.400)

He's a brown belt.

Lex Fridman (2:34:32.440)

And he's just consistent over a long period of time and willing to take the path.

Lex Fridman (2:34:37.960)

And no two people's path is exactly the same.

Lex Fridman (2:34:40.360)

No two people's lives are exactly the same.

Ryan Hall (2:34:43.880)

We have students who started as a white belt as a young adult with no responsibilities.

Lex Fridman (2:34:50.280)

And they train all the time.

Lex Fridman (2:34:51.320)

And then they have a job.

Lex Fridman (2:34:53.400)

Then they graduate college.

Ryan Hall (2:34:54.440)

Then they have a job.

Lex Fridman (2:34:55.080)

Then they have married.

Ryan Hall (2:34:55.800)

Then they have kids.

Ryan Hall (2:34:56.440)

Then they have different points in their careers and at different points in your life.

Ryan Hall (2:34:59.560)

Jiu Jitsu will be there for whatever way that you're willing to accept it.

Lex Fridman (2:35:05.080)

It's place, I think.

Ryan Hall (2:35:06.440)

Well, that's actually kind of back to the initial question we discussed about what makes

Ryan Hall (2:35:10.920)

a warrior and also what makes something or someone particularly impressive in my mind

Ryan Hall (2:35:16.840)

is like what they make out of what they have.

Lex Fridman (2:35:20.680)

One of my favorite movies ever is Forrest Gump.

Lex Fridman (2:35:22.920)

And it's obviously it's just if you can't because I've heard people go, Forrest Gump

Lex Fridman (2:35:27.320)

sucks.

Ryan Hall (2:35:27.560)

I'm like, I don't like you as a person.

Lex Fridman (2:35:29.000)

And you have no heart at all.

Lex Fridman (2:35:32.200)

But basically, it's the story of someone that tries hard.

Lex Fridman (2:35:35.400)

And it's like, yeah, but it's a funny movie.

Lex Fridman (2:35:37.720)

But it's like, you know, I guess you meet each person where they are, you know, and

Lex Fridman (2:35:43.720)

obviously you want everyone needs to be pushed.

Ryan Hall (2:35:45.960)

We all need to be pushed.

Ryan Hall (2:35:46.920)

We need friends and people around us that push us to be better versions of ourselves

Ryan Hall (2:35:51.320)

all the time.

Lex Fridman (2:35:52.040)

And as you mentioned, the people you spend all of your time around deeply impact you.

Lex Fridman (2:35:57.000)

And we have to be willing to be pushed.

Ryan Hall (2:35:58.600)

It takes a leap of faith for me to trust, for me to put some of myself in my, you know,

Ryan Hall (2:36:04.680)

I guess my ability, my control, my personal agency, as it were, in the hands of someone

Lex Fridman (2:36:08.840)

else that I trust and that I respect.

Lex Fridman (2:36:12.200)

But if I can do that, again, maybe I never become, you know, high level black belt competitor.

Lex Fridman (2:36:18.760)

But, you know, I had four of the things I was doing in my life.

Ryan Hall (2:36:21.160)

I also have a family.

Ryan Hall (2:36:22.040)

I have this, I have that, you know, what that person was able to accomplish in the martial

Ryan Hall (2:36:25.240)

arts relative to what they were able to put in this phenomenal, you know, other times

Ryan Hall (2:36:28.760)

someone could be a very successful black belt and in my mind be a bum because they could

Ryan Hall (2:36:32.600)

have been a lot more.

Lex Fridman (2:36:33.560)

And, you know, they could have done more.

Ryan Hall (2:36:35.480)

They could have focused more.

Lex Fridman (2:36:37.000)

And there's no shame in deciding that you don't want to do that.

Lex Fridman (2:36:40.280)

But whatever it is that you're invested in, I remember the Take It Uneasy podcast and

Lex Fridman (2:36:45.960)

that I loved because, you know, I'll just chill out like resting.

Ryan Hall (2:36:50.200)

It's like vacation.

Lex Fridman (2:36:50.920)

Oh, who wants to go on vacation?

Ryan Hall (2:36:51.800)

Yeah, I'll go on vacation for a day or two.

Lex Fridman (2:36:53.160)

You want to spend three weeks on vacation?

Ryan Hall (2:36:54.440)

Like, I kill myself.

Lex Fridman (2:36:55.080)

Like, get me out of here.

Ryan Hall (2:36:55.800)

Like, this is horrible.

Lex Fridman (2:36:56.840)

This is I'm a waste of life.

Ryan Hall (2:36:58.280)

I'm not doing anything useful.

Lex Fridman (2:36:59.400)

You're technically on vacation right now.

Ryan Hall (2:37:01.480)

Right.

Lex Fridman (2:37:01.720)

Well, this is fun, though.

Ryan Hall (2:37:02.600)

It's like a one day vacation.

Lex Fridman (2:37:04.120)

Exactly.

Ryan Hall (2:37:04.520)

But, you know, I'm sure you're thinking about jumping off of the building right now.

Lex Fridman (2:37:08.840)

But if you had to talk to me for, you know, like three days, I'm sure you'd probably

Ryan Hall (2:37:13.000)

shove me off the building.

Lex Fridman (2:37:13.640)

I don't blame you.

Ryan Hall (2:37:14.200)

I'll be dead.

Lex Fridman (2:37:14.680)

Five hours in.

Ryan Hall (2:37:16.760)

But, yeah, but, you know, it's like you want to be pushing towards something because otherwise

Lex Fridman (2:37:20.840)

what's the purpose of being here?

Ryan Hall (2:37:22.440)

You know, it's not just a college.

Ryan Hall (2:37:24.280)

It's doing something useful, building, growing as a person, helping others do the same if

Ryan Hall (2:37:28.760)

that's within your power at any given time.

Lex Fridman (2:37:31.160)

But I think that's kind of the neat thing about martial arts is it can be many, many

Ryan Hall (2:37:34.200)

different things to many different people.

Lex Fridman (2:37:36.040)

You know, I finally, for instance, was able to get a college degree this year.

Ryan Hall (2:37:40.120)

That which I mean, it's not a big deal for most people, but for me it was a big deal

Lex Fridman (2:37:43.240)

because I was going back and finish.

Ryan Hall (2:37:45.000)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:37:45.480)

And I never envisioned ever going back.

Lex Fridman (2:37:47.400)

And that's a hard step to go back and finish.

Lex Fridman (2:37:50.440)

That's always heavy on you if you don't.

Ryan Hall (2:37:53.720)

It's interesting.

Ryan Hall (2:37:54.600)

I was just I was more proud of that than most things I've ever done, if I'm honest.

Ryan Hall (2:37:57.880)

You know, and it was neat and I really enjoyed it and it was the process of doing it.

Lex Fridman (2:38:01.080)

But, you know, are my academic credentials impressive?

Ryan Hall (2:38:04.840)

Like, not in the least.

Lex Fridman (2:38:06.200)

But for me, it's like it was a big deal for me personally to take that step and to go

Ryan Hall (2:38:10.920)

back and do that.

Lex Fridman (2:38:11.720)

And I was I was proud of the the direction and because it would have been easy, like,

Lex Fridman (2:38:15.880)

do I need to do it?

Lex Fridman (2:38:16.520)

Like, no, I'm in our business.

Ryan Hall (2:38:17.800)

I'll do OK.

Lex Fridman (2:38:18.360)

I'll try.

Ryan Hall (2:38:18.760)

I'll keep fighting.

Lex Fridman (2:38:19.880)

But I was happy to take the time in between fights when I was when I was unbooked for

Ryan Hall (2:38:24.840)

an opponent to do something productive rather than just I'll just hang out.

Ryan Hall (2:38:28.200)

You know, like I can still train every single day, but I can also train and go to school.

Ryan Hall (2:38:31.240)

People go to the Olympics while going to school.

Lex Fridman (2:38:33.000)

I can I can do martial arts and go to school.

Ryan Hall (2:38:37.160)

One thing I got to ask is, you know, a bunch of women listen to this podcast if they haven't

Ryan Hall (2:38:44.680)

done Jiu Jitsu, I think it'd be kind of intimidating to step on the mat with a bunch of bros that

Ryan Hall (2:38:52.280)

like enjoy somehow killing each other.

Ryan Hall (2:38:55.320)

Like, how do you succeed in that environment to where you can learn this art, learn how

Lex Fridman (2:39:00.600)

to beat all those people up?

Lex Fridman (2:39:03.640)

Oh, gosh.

Lex Fridman (2:39:04.840)

Is there any advice?

Ryan Hall (2:39:05.720)

I mean, another way to ask that is like if any women listening to this are interested

Lex Fridman (2:39:11.400)

in starting Jiu Jitsu, like, is there advice for that journey?

Lex Fridman (2:39:14.520)

Honestly, I think it's just walking in the door and starting.

Ryan Hall (2:39:17.800)

Sometimes I don't know how to respond to that because I'm not I don't view myself as typically

Lex Fridman (2:39:21.960)

anxious, particularly in interactions with other people or new people.

Ryan Hall (2:39:29.080)

Shy is not a word that has been used for me by if you ask my family and they joke because

Lex Fridman (2:39:35.880)

our son talks a lot.

Ryan Hall (2:39:37.080)

He's advanced verbally and they're always like, oh, well, let's we know where he gets

Lex Fridman (2:39:40.440)

that from because he just doesn't stop talking.

Ryan Hall (2:39:42.600)

He narrates everything he does.

Lex Fridman (2:39:45.320)

And so they always tease because that's like I'm known for for kind of talking a lot.

Lex Fridman (2:39:52.040)

But so I haven't been typically I'm not I don't consider myself a shy person.

Lex Fridman (2:39:56.040)

So for me, going into a new room, a new group of people is, you know, there's always that

Ryan Hall (2:40:02.280)

you don't really know who they are, how they're going to treat you.

Lex Fridman (2:40:04.760)

But I typically but I don't have a lot of anxiety with that.

Lex Fridman (2:40:08.280)

So I don't if that's something that's going to put something up.

Lex Fridman (2:40:11.160)

I don't really know how to to address that particular feeling.

Lex Fridman (2:40:15.800)

But in terms of all of the rooms I've been and I have popped into gyms before I knew

Ryan Hall (2:40:21.240)

Ryan in Florida, like I traveled for my job in Germany and Florida and in California and

Ryan Hall (2:40:26.360)

places where where I don't know anyone, they don't know me.

Lex Fridman (2:40:29.400)

And I have never once had anyone be anything other than than kind and solicitous and helpful

Lex Fridman (2:40:36.760)

and long before when I was a white belt and a blue belt and didn't know anything and

Lex Fridman (2:40:41.480)

I didn't know anyone.

Lex Fridman (2:40:42.440)

And I just think that it's a community of people that it's so cool that no matter where

Ryan Hall (2:40:49.160)

you go in the world, I walked into a gym in Prague one time where only two people spoke

Ryan Hall (2:40:54.920)

English and and it was just yes, weird, you know, it's weird that like part of a group

Lex Fridman (2:41:01.160)

and they're like, Oh, let me tell you what it's like to be part of a cult, right?

Ryan Hall (2:41:03.480)

Yeah, but it's like a positive cult, like it for sure.

Lex Fridman (2:41:07.480)

That's what we would say as cultists.

Ryan Hall (2:41:09.720)

Yeah, that's true.

Lex Fridman (2:41:12.360)

That's true.

Ryan Hall (2:41:13.080)

I mean, we do need to murder everybody who practice Aikido.

Lex Fridman (2:41:17.000)

Yeah, that's this cult deeply believes it.

Ryan Hall (2:41:20.360)

No, but there is a like if you look at different kinds of games like chess and so on, like

Lex Fridman (2:41:25.080)

there's a skepticism.

Ryan Hall (2:41:27.160)

I mean, there's not a brotherhood, sisterhood feeling with Jiu Jitsu.

Lex Fridman (2:41:30.440)

It's like you can roll into most places.

Ryan Hall (2:41:32.440)

Even like with Judo, like I can see the contrast like because I've trained in Judo places.

Lex Fridman (2:41:38.520)

It it's more like tribal, like you walk in and like, who is this?

Ryan Hall (2:41:46.920)

Like there's that kind of feeling with Jiu Jitsu.

Lex Fridman (2:41:49.000)

There's less so there is a little bit with like the competitors.

Ryan Hall (2:41:52.360)

There's always like the competitors feeling each other out usually like the blue belts.

Lex Fridman (2:41:56.360)

But like outside of that, in terms of if you don't get the if you walk in with the vibes of just

Ryan Hall (2:42:02.520)

loving the art and just wanting to have a good time, you're like welcome.

Lex Fridman (2:42:07.720)

It's really cool.

Ryan Hall (2:42:08.760)

It's really fascinating.

Lex Fridman (2:42:10.120)

It's a really great thing.

Ryan Hall (2:42:12.040)

I think in as a woman, I think you you think you're walking into these rooms of these,

Lex Fridman (2:42:16.520)

you know, big, strong, tough guys.

Lex Fridman (2:42:18.440)

And if anything, I would I would say that they're almost like much more solicitous when

Ryan Hall (2:42:23.960)

a woman comes in there and not like they're just like hitting on you all the time.

Ryan Hall (2:42:27.400)

You know, it's just that you walk in and everyone is like, oh, cool.

Lex Fridman (2:42:31.720)

You want to do this thing that I love.

Ryan Hall (2:42:33.480)

Let me make sure you have a good experience and take care of you.

Lex Fridman (2:42:36.360)

And I think that's that's an experience that that I hope people have when they come into our gym.

Lex Fridman (2:42:40.920)

And and I've always felt when I walked into other gyms.

Lex Fridman (2:42:43.720)

And so, you know, we try our best to to make that comfortable.

Lex Fridman (2:42:47.240)

And it can be a little uncomfortable because there are when you walk into a male dominated

Lex Fridman (2:42:51.720)

environment, there's conversations and topics.

Ryan Hall (2:42:55.320)

There's a different style of camaraderie and joking that a lot of men will do that.

Lex Fridman (2:43:00.120)

Maybe some women are more uncomfortable with.

Ryan Hall (2:43:02.040)

I grew up with four brothers, so I kind of maybe was a little more desensitized to that.

Lex Fridman (2:43:07.800)

And I worked for the Department of Defense for a while, too.

Lex Fridman (2:43:10.360)

So before I do with the government.

Lex Fridman (2:43:13.720)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:43:14.200)

So so I did that.

Lex Fridman (2:43:15.560)

I'm already skeptical.

Ryan Hall (2:43:16.520)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:43:18.760)

I'm not.

Ryan Hall (2:43:19.260)

I'm not.

Lex Fridman (2:43:19.760)

I'm not.

Ryan Hall (2:43:20.260)

I'm not.

Lex Fridman (2:43:20.760)

Oh, you left.

Ryan Hall (2:43:22.120)

I'm not going to ask you about UFOs then, because you're not going to tell me the truth.

Lex Fridman (2:43:25.320)

No, they exist.

Ryan Hall (2:43:28.920)

Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:43:29.560)

No, you just freaked out a lot of people.

Ryan Hall (2:43:31.320)

OK, but yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:43:34.200)

By the way, where's where's your school?

Lex Fridman (2:43:35.640)

Because people always ask like where?

Lex Fridman (2:43:38.440)

Well, we're outside of Washington, D.C., in Northern Virginia, in Falls Church.

Ryan Hall (2:43:42.120)

You always want to pick like, what's the best school if I travel to this place or if I want

Lex Fridman (2:43:45.960)

to move to this place?

Lex Fridman (2:43:47.160)

So that's well, I mean, obviously we're biased.

Lex Fridman (2:43:49.320)

But yeah, we're in the Washington, D.C. area.

Ryan Hall (2:43:51.800)

The best.

Lex Fridman (2:43:52.840)

OK, we just took a little break.

Ryan Hall (2:43:54.360)

Now we're back.

Lex Fridman (2:43:55.400)

Let me ask you one thing that a bunch of people are curious about.

Ryan Hall (2:43:59.320)

You're one of the innovators.

Ryan Hall (2:44:01.400)

First of all, you're one of the great innovators and philosophers and thinkers in Jiu Jitsu,

Lex Fridman (2:44:06.280)

right?

Lex Fridman (2:44:07.320)

But you're also one of the innovators in terms of leg locks and the 50 50 position.

Lex Fridman (2:44:13.240)

And just like the fact that legs have something to do in Jiu Jitsu.

Ryan Hall (2:44:17.720)

The other popularizer innovator in the space is John Donoher and his whole group of guys.

Lex Fridman (2:44:25.560)

Do you have thoughts about their whole system of leg locks and their ideas about Jiu Jitsu

Lex Fridman (2:44:32.200)

and so on?

Ryan Hall (2:44:33.000)

Sure, I guess, you know, obviously, you know, John and the students at HENZO have been able

Lex Fridman (2:44:37.720)

to do fantastic things competitively in the past number of years.

Ryan Hall (2:44:40.840)

And, you know, you mentioned innovators in the in that kind of, you know, section of

Lex Fridman (2:44:46.920)

Jiu Jitsu.

Ryan Hall (2:44:47.720)

I would be I'd love to bring up some guys like Dean Lister, of course, Masakazu Imanari.

Ryan Hall (2:44:53.400)

In fact, a lot of what was going on in like nineties Japan, like combat submission wrestling,

Ryan Hall (2:44:57.800)

there was some crazy gnarly stuff that it's just it's on grainy VHS tape, but like stuff

Lex Fridman (2:45:02.680)

that if people were doing now, they go, oh, my God, that's brand new.

Ryan Hall (2:45:05.080)

Like there's it's it's been I think these are things that have been around for a while

Lex Fridman (2:45:10.040)

in various places.

Ryan Hall (2:45:11.080)

I first learned the 50 50 position, just like the leg entanglement of it from Brandon Vera,

Lex Fridman (2:45:17.000)

actually, at a seminar at Lord Irwin's Martial Arts thing in 2005.

Ryan Hall (2:45:20.440)

He learned it from Dean Lister, who used it to submit Alexandria Kakareko, really, really

Ryan Hall (2:45:25.320)

tough Nogi guy at ADCC on there in the run that Dean made to the to the gold medal in

Ryan Hall (2:45:30.520)

the absolute division, which was a great performance at the time.

Lex Fridman (2:45:33.080)

First American to do that.

Ryan Hall (2:45:35.320)

And, you know, and I actually saw a video.

Lex Fridman (2:45:38.120)

I mean, first, a boss rootin actually broke.

Ryan Hall (2:45:40.040)

I think Guy Mezger's foot with a 50 50 heel hook that he actually grabbed his heel and

Ryan Hall (2:45:44.920)

his and his toes went and in pancreases back when they had like the man panties in the

Ryan Hall (2:45:49.320)

high, high boots on.

Lex Fridman (2:45:50.760)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:45:51.000)

And that was gnarly.

Lex Fridman (2:45:52.200)

Boss rootin is underappreciated.

Ryan Hall (2:45:53.560)

It's like it's like he double grab like and oh, yeah, like, you know, his leverage is

Lex Fridman (2:45:58.200)

leverage.

Ryan Hall (2:45:58.520)

It's that's like a toehold that, you know, that goes the other way.

Lex Fridman (2:46:01.560)

And it's like it either doesn't work or breaks in half.

Lex Fridman (2:46:03.800)

And well, he's is people don't often think of boss rootin as an innovator, but he is

Ryan Hall (2:46:09.480)

in a way like he, you know, talk about like Elon Musk and first principles thinking in

Ryan Hall (2:46:15.560)

terms of physics.

Lex Fridman (2:46:16.920)

He like just feels like he just gets the job.

Ryan Hall (2:46:19.480)

He figures out like the simplest way to get the job done of breaking things and establishing

Lex Fridman (2:46:24.520)

control and hurting people.

Ryan Hall (2:46:25.800)

Remember that was back in the day boss.

Ryan Hall (2:46:27.080)

If you listen to boss rootin do any like commentary for any of the the big MMA shows or any MMA

Ryan Hall (2:46:31.560)

show way back when anytime guys were clinches like the guys roll for a knee bar.

Ryan Hall (2:46:34.520)

He was saying that way back when and now people are doing it all the time with varying degrees

Ryan Hall (2:46:38.280)

of success.

Lex Fridman (2:46:38.840)

It's it's funny.

Ryan Hall (2:46:39.800)

It's like it's also tough to be, I think, like a breakaway thinker.

Lex Fridman (2:46:43.080)

I mean, you know, group think is a real thing and group inertia.

Lex Fridman (2:46:46.040)

And it's it's neat to see, you know, particularly at a time when maybe that type of stuff was

Lex Fridman (2:46:52.440)

less accepted.

Ryan Hall (2:46:54.520)

You know, someone going, hey, I'm going to I'm going to run off in this other direction.

Ryan Hall (2:46:57.320)

I think, you know, whoever, you know, the inventor of electricity in my mind is a lot

Ryan Hall (2:47:01.240)

more impressive than whomever not to say that the person down the line isn't impressive

Lex Fridman (2:47:05.480)

that comes up with an interesting way to use it.

Ryan Hall (2:47:07.400)

Both are cool.

Lex Fridman (2:47:08.200)

But when you think about just can you imagine we're sitting here like, yeah, people, I'm

Ryan Hall (2:47:12.280)

going to build an airplane.

Lex Fridman (2:47:13.240)

You're like, what are you talking about?

Ryan Hall (2:47:14.360)

It's crazy.

Lex Fridman (2:47:14.840)

People don't fly.

Ryan Hall (2:47:15.640)

I'm like, no, I'm going to do it.

Lex Fridman (2:47:16.680)

And of course, it's not going to be as good as the airplane down the line, the iterative

Ryan Hall (2:47:19.640)

things that happen later on.

Lex Fridman (2:47:21.320)

But just being able to go to dream something into existence that you haven't seen before

Lex Fridman (2:47:26.440)

and then make it happen, like takes an unbelievable like strength of character, almost like a

Ryan Hall (2:47:31.000)

force of will, because you have you're you're blazing a trail that hasn't been washed away

Ryan Hall (2:47:37.000)

walked before.

Ryan Hall (2:47:37.720)

That's the BJ Penn factor in, you know, winning the Jiu Jitsu World Championship.

Ryan Hall (2:47:41.960)

First non Brazilian to do that was back in 2001.

Lex Fridman (2:47:44.760)

And then Rafael Lovato later on.

Ryan Hall (2:47:46.520)

It's like he's you know, both of those guys are so unbelievably impressive in my mind

Ryan Hall (2:47:50.360)

for the same reason, you know, because they were out there winning at a time when that

Ryan Hall (2:47:55.240)

wasn't a common thing.

Lex Fridman (2:47:56.440)

Not that it's easy to win now.

Ryan Hall (2:47:57.800)

It's just there's not a psychological hurdle that needs to be left.

Ryan Hall (2:48:01.240)

I remember, you know, when I was early in Jiu Jitsu, like Americans weren't winning

Ryan Hall (2:48:04.200)

the world championships at any belt.

Lex Fridman (2:48:05.640)

I mean, BJ, we all knew BJ Penn because BJ Penn did it.

Lex Fridman (2:48:08.280)

But it was really, really uncommon.

Lex Fridman (2:48:10.360)

Now it happens, you know, on a semi regular basis.

Ryan Hall (2:48:12.760)

Of course, the Brazilians are so strong.

Lex Fridman (2:48:14.040)

Europeans are still strong.

Lex Fridman (2:48:15.640)

But in Australians are coming on as well.

Lex Fridman (2:48:18.040)

But it's definitely kind of an interesting thing.

Lex Fridman (2:48:20.680)

So to come back to, you know, John Danaher and the Henzo team, obviously, they're doing

Lex Fridman (2:48:25.240)

fantastic things.

Ryan Hall (2:48:26.120)

John's had some really, really great innovation there.

Lex Fridman (2:48:28.440)

And the systematization and the methodology that they're using is great.

Lex Fridman (2:48:33.800)

And it's neat to see that it's getting out there.

Ryan Hall (2:48:36.040)

I would just also want, I would encourage people to make sure that they're catching

Ryan Hall (2:48:41.160)

up on their history because obviously, you know, John's a brilliant instructor and has

Lex Fridman (2:48:44.120)

done things for the sport that are fantastic that haven't been done before.

Ryan Hall (2:48:48.520)

But, you know, none of us exist in a vacuum.

Lex Fridman (2:48:50.360)

And I've learned things from everywhere else.

Ryan Hall (2:48:51.800)

So, you know, John would say the same, I'm sure.

Lex Fridman (2:48:53.880)

And, you know, Dean Lister would say the same.

Lex Fridman (2:48:56.040)

And it's just neat when you can kind of trace the history of all of this happening because

Ryan Hall (2:48:59.960)

we've had, humanity's had two arms and two legs for some time, at least as long as I've

Ryan Hall (2:49:03.880)

been alive.

Lex Fridman (2:49:04.360)

But you mentioned, like, airplanes.

Lex Fridman (2:49:06.280)

Do you think there's something totally new to be invented in Jiu Jitsu still?

Ryan Hall (2:49:09.560)

Not totally new, but like the, you know, flying isn't new, but airplanes nevertheless made

Ryan Hall (2:49:16.360)

that much more efficient.

Lex Fridman (2:49:17.480)

Is there, like, new ideas to be discovered in Jiu Jitsu still?

Ryan Hall (2:49:22.280)

I'd say, the reason I'd say yes is the same reason I would say I believe in alchemy, even

Lex Fridman (2:49:26.200)

though I don't.

Ryan Hall (2:49:27.240)

No, I'm serious.

Lex Fridman (2:49:28.360)

I've got some backing for this.

Ryan Hall (2:49:29.720)

Okay.

Ryan Hall (2:49:30.680)

You know, I guess I talk about this with a buddy of mine a lot, like, and facilitative

Ryan Hall (2:49:36.040)

versus not facilitative beliefs.

Lex Fridman (2:49:38.520)

And if I don't believe something is possible and I do no investigation towards it, I'll

Ryan Hall (2:49:44.040)

never find something even if it's there.

Ryan Hall (2:49:45.720)

It's almost like it's no different than me walking up on a group of people and going

Ryan Hall (2:49:49.000)

like, oh, man, look at these jerks.

Lex Fridman (2:49:50.680)

This is going to suck versus me going, oh, I wonder what these guys are up to.

Ryan Hall (2:49:53.800)

I'm about to have two very different conversations, even though the players in the game are no

Lex Fridman (2:49:57.400)

different.

Ryan Hall (2:49:57.720)

My internal constitution has changed because of how I've decided to approach the situation.

Ryan Hall (2:50:02.680)

So, although I wouldn't personally want to spend all my time trying to turn lead into

Ryan Hall (2:50:06.600)

gold because I don't believe that it's likely to work, only a person who's willing to spend

Lex Fridman (2:50:11.320)

his or her life in that pursuit will actually get to the bottom of that.

Lex Fridman (2:50:14.200)

And also, in the pursuit of that, they're likely to find other things.

Ryan Hall (2:50:18.120)

So, I think a lot of times the idea is that humanity is pushed forward by, you know, again,

Ryan Hall (2:50:21.960)

it's another Orson Scott Card one.

Lex Fridman (2:50:23.400)

It's like, you know, human beings are in this slog.

Ryan Hall (2:50:25.560)

It's paraphrasing, just in this slog over time.

Lex Fridman (2:50:28.120)

And then periodically, humanity gives birth to genius, like someone that invents the wheel,

Ryan Hall (2:50:32.520)

invents electricity, pushes us forward, you know, comes up with the idea of governance

Lex Fridman (2:50:36.920)

that doesn't, you know, just start and end with the point of a sword, you know.

Ryan Hall (2:50:40.600)

And, you know, these aren't common things.

Ryan Hall (2:50:43.320)

These are unbelievable advancements that, you know, just me sitting here, I didn't come

Ryan Hall (2:50:47.320)

up with them, but I just get the benefit of it.

Ryan Hall (2:50:49.080)

So, I guess what I would say is a lot of times these ideas are called crazy, you know, like

Ryan Hall (2:50:52.840)

as we discussed kind of offline.

Ryan Hall (2:50:54.280)

It's like, you know, Einstein was brilliant in his 20s and he was brilliant before that,

Ryan Hall (2:50:58.600)

I would suspect, but basically, you know, gets recognized later on in life.

Lex Fridman (2:51:02.920)

And of course, we all thought those were great ideas.

Ryan Hall (2:51:05.080)

The man was probably roundly mocked for giant chunks of his life.

Lex Fridman (2:51:08.280)

And I guess, so it's neat to, I would say there's definitely in my mind things that

Ryan Hall (2:51:13.080)

even if it's just combinations and new to me, new ways to see things, new ways to understand

Ryan Hall (2:51:17.800)

different depth of understanding, possibly new things, new positions, new ideas, because

Ryan Hall (2:51:22.280)

even if that's not true, the process of going through and acting as if it is and believing

Ryan Hall (2:51:27.960)

like that and focusing and trying to investigate will make any of us, will push us all forward.

Ryan Hall (2:51:33.320)

Whereas sitting there, you know, obsessing over the cult of our current knowledge, I

Ryan Hall (2:51:37.640)

think is the biggest, the biggest danger and the biggest cause of stagnation that exists

Ryan Hall (2:51:42.520)

anywhere.

Lex Fridman (2:51:44.680)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:51:45.480)

And it starts with believing the impossible, which is kind of interesting.

Ryan Hall (2:51:48.920)

One of the things that's really inspiring to me is to see people out there, which sadly

Ryan Hall (2:51:54.200)

are rare, who kind of have a combination of two things.

Ryan Hall (2:52:00.760)

One is they have a worldview that involves, that includes a lot of ideas that are crazy.

Lex Fridman (2:52:07.080)

And the second part is they're exceptionally focused and competent in bringing that,

Lex Fridman (2:52:13.320)

whatever the ideas in that worldview to reality.

Lex Fridman (2:52:16.040)

So there's certainly a lot of people with crazy ideas.

Lex Fridman (2:52:18.360)

You know, there's a lot of conspiracy theorists.

Ryan Hall (2:52:20.040)

They have way out there beliefs about things, but they're not doing much to like make the,

Lex Fridman (2:52:27.240)

like build stuff grounded.

Ryan Hall (2:52:29.480)

Like they're not engineers or whatever.

Lex Fridman (2:52:31.400)

They're just like espousing different crazy ideas.

Lex Fridman (2:52:33.480)

But that's why you get like the Elon Musk type characters.

Lex Fridman (2:52:36.440)

And the reason I bring him up a lot is because like, there's not many others to bring up.

Ryan Hall (2:52:41.000)

It's like, there's not many examples of it through history.

Lex Fridman (2:52:44.440)

The people, I mean, the guy's convinced that we're going to colonize Mars.

Lex Fridman (2:52:49.640)

And basically everybody on earth thinks that's insane.

Lex Fridman (2:52:56.520)

Everyone except the guy that's going to do it, right?

Ryan Hall (2:52:58.280)

Except that's going to do it.

Lex Fridman (2:52:59.400)

And like, you can imagine like a couple of hundred years from now, people will,

Ryan Hall (2:53:05.800)

I mean, first of all, they won't, certainly won't remember the haters.

Lex Fridman (2:53:10.600)

They won't remember all the people.

Ryan Hall (2:53:12.040)

If they do remember them, they'll remember them in a sense like people were silly to

Lex Fridman (2:53:16.840)

think that this isn't the obvious path forward.

Ryan Hall (2:53:20.440)

Like from a perspective, that's what Elon talks about.

Lex Fridman (2:53:24.760)

Like it's obvious that we're going to expand throughout the universe.

Ryan Hall (2:53:28.760)

Like, so.

Lex Fridman (2:53:29.720)

From his perspective.

Ryan Hall (2:53:30.440)

From his perspective.

Ryan Hall (2:53:31.640)

Like, but to me it is also obvious because like either we destroy ourselves or we'll

Ryan Hall (2:53:39.080)

expand beyond earth.

Lex Fridman (2:53:40.600)

Like, there's not many, well, maybe it's not completely obvious.

Ryan Hall (2:53:47.320)

I guess I share that worldview.

Ryan Hall (2:53:49.160)

There's the other possibility that we humans find a sort of an inner peace where the forces

Ryan Hall (2:53:55.560)

of capitalism will calm down and we'll all just meditate and do yoga and Jiu Jitsu and

Lex Fridman (2:54:00.200)

like relax with this whole tech thing where we keep building new technologies.

Lex Fridman (2:54:03.960)

But it's cool to have those kinds of people that just believe the big ambitious, crazy

Lex Fridman (2:54:10.120)

dreams because that's where it starts.

Ryan Hall (2:54:12.280)

If you want to build something, you have to first believe that when you also have to believe

Ryan Hall (2:54:16.760)

strongly enough that you're not vulnerable and I'm speculating, but it's like, I can

Ryan Hall (2:54:20.680)

only imagine how many people have told Elon that what he's doing is crazy.

Lex Fridman (2:54:24.840)

So not only did he dream it up, he dreamed it up, went with it and also went with it

Ryan Hall (2:54:28.760)

in the face of being told that it's not going to work.

Lex Fridman (2:54:32.200)

And then anytime, and then also stepped away from the bitterness because he's done a

Ryan Hall (2:54:35.960)

series of really crazy, impressive things.

Lex Fridman (2:54:37.880)

And that's only those little things that I'm aware of, but, and also staying away from

Ryan Hall (2:54:41.320)

the bitterness of every single time you did something good.

Lex Fridman (2:54:43.880)

Initially, all I do is talk down about you.

Lex Fridman (2:54:46.600)

And then eventually I act as, of course, of course, I never apologize.

Lex Fridman (2:54:50.200)

And yet you don't let that dampen your spirits for the next innovation, which is pretty incredible

Ryan Hall (2:54:55.080)

to me to watch.

Lex Fridman (2:54:55.720)

Yeah, it's kind of cool.

Ryan Hall (2:54:57.240)

I mean, it's contagious to spend time with the guy because he's not, it's, Rogan has

Ryan Hall (2:55:03.080)

the same look to him, which is interesting about these people is like, there's like a

Ryan Hall (2:55:11.080)

hater shield that he's like, he doesn't even like sense them.

Lex Fridman (2:55:15.880)

It feels like, like it doesn't, he thinks to Elon it's like, it's obvious.

Ryan Hall (2:55:22.680)

I mean, he keeps calling it like first principles thinking, like physics says it's true.

Lex Fridman (2:55:27.560)

Therefore it's true.

Ryan Hall (2:55:28.200)

Like he's convinced himself that like his beliefs are grounded in the fundamental fabric

Lex Fridman (2:55:33.800)

of the way the universe works.

Ryan Hall (2:55:35.560)

Therefore the haters don't matter.

Lex Fridman (2:55:37.000)

Right.

Lex Fridman (2:55:37.960)

And I mean, that's kind of like a system of thought.

Lex Fridman (2:55:39.880)

He developed himself through all the difficulties, through all the doubt.

Ryan Hall (2:55:43.160)

He's able to take huge risks with basically putting everything he owes on the line multiple

Lex Fridman (2:55:48.200)

times throughout his life.

Ryan Hall (2:55:49.640)

Amidst all the drama, amidst all the doubts, amidst all like the, he's still able to make

Lex Fridman (2:55:55.240)

just clear, clearheaded decisions.

Ryan Hall (2:55:58.200)

It's, I don't know what to make of it, but it's inspiring as hell.

Lex Fridman (2:56:01.000)

Well, it's, I think it's something that's funny.

Ryan Hall (2:56:02.600)

I think like, I can only imagine, you know, history will look back on him as a brilliant

Ryan Hall (2:56:07.160)

person, but that's not the only, there's, there's a lot of maybe not numeric, not statistically

Ryan Hall (2:56:11.320)

speaking, but a lot numerically on a giant planet of, you know, billions of people, a

Lex Fridman (2:56:14.600)

lot of brilliant people.

Ryan Hall (2:56:16.360)

Well, you know, time, place, luck, fortune, all that other stuff.

Lex Fridman (2:56:19.160)

But at the same time, that clearly isn't the only determining thing in making Elon Musk,

Ryan Hall (2:56:24.760)

Elon Musk.

Lex Fridman (2:56:25.160)

And obviously I don't know the guy from Adam and, but it's an interesting thing that it's

Ryan Hall (2:56:29.720)

not just his intellect, his belief system, his structure, how he's viewing the world.

Lex Fridman (2:56:34.200)

Like that's, did he, did he reason his way to that?

Lex Fridman (2:56:37.400)

Did he not?

Lex Fridman (2:56:38.040)

What other factors came in?

Ryan Hall (2:56:39.240)

I'm really curious about that because I guess coming, it's, again, I feel really strongly

Ryan Hall (2:56:44.520)

about people's belief structure and, and this, the, how they view the world being more important

Ryan Hall (2:56:50.360)

than the engine behind it.

Lex Fridman (2:56:52.360)

You know, it makes someone resilient or not.

Ryan Hall (2:56:54.760)

It makes someone positive or not because you could have 10,000.

Ryan Hall (2:56:57.720)

I think about this for competitive stuff, you could have 10,000 things going properly

Lex Fridman (2:57:01.160)

and one thing going improperly.

Ryan Hall (2:57:02.360)

If you focus on the improper, you'll probably fix it at a certain point, which is good,

Ryan Hall (2:57:06.120)

facilitated for development in the longterm.

Lex Fridman (2:57:08.200)

But if you had to go and try to perform a task in the next five minutes and you're

Ryan Hall (2:57:12.520)

focusing on the negative, your confidence and your, your, your belief in the positive

Lex Fridman (2:57:16.600)

outcome of the future is likely to be damaged.

Ryan Hall (2:57:18.840)

Whereas you could have 25 things going wrong, but you go, man, I sure am happy to be alive.

Lex Fridman (2:57:22.680)

How fortunate I am.

Ryan Hall (2:57:23.480)

This is great.

Lex Fridman (2:57:24.040)

I can't, this is, I have problems to solve.

Ryan Hall (2:57:25.400)

This is awesome.

Lex Fridman (2:57:26.600)

Versus I had to list the problems and I start bitching about them.

Ryan Hall (2:57:29.560)

Both of them are technically accurate, but it's, I guess, different lenses.

Lex Fridman (2:57:32.760)

And I think that's a really neat thing to see, you know, someone, you know, exemplifying

Ryan Hall (2:57:36.920)

that for us.

Lex Fridman (2:57:39.480)

So maybe to look at the, the fighting world, there's a million questions I can ask here.

Ryan Hall (2:57:45.880)

Like one, you mentioned BJ Penn, you, uh, first of all, you're undefeated in the UFC

Lex Fridman (2:57:51.080)

and one of the fights you've had is against BJ Penn, which is, uh, kind of an incredible

Ryan Hall (2:57:56.840)

fight.

Lex Fridman (2:57:57.320)

You, you won performance of the night.

Lex Fridman (2:57:59.720)

What did it feel like to, uh, to face BJ Penn and to beat him definitively as you did?

Lex Fridman (2:58:07.080)

Like, what's that whole experience like?

Ryan Hall (2:58:09.160)

I'll be honest, I didn't know if I was going to ever be able to fight again after beating

Lex Fridman (2:58:13.560)

Gray Maynard in 2016. Um, you know, I've had a couple of periods of those.

Ryan Hall (2:58:17.560)

I was about to join the army actually in, uh, when I was 30 before the, uh, for the

Lex Fridman (2:58:22.760)

UFC before Jen sent me over to ultimate fighter.

Ryan Hall (2:58:25.320)

I didn't want to go cause I was like, one, they're never going to pick me.

Lex Fridman (2:58:27.560)

Two, I'd be terrible for TV.

Ryan Hall (2:58:28.920)

Three, I'll probably say something.

Lex Fridman (2:58:29.960)

I'm going to get burned to death in the streets.

Ryan Hall (2:58:32.600)

You know, I'm like, this isn't a great idea.

Lex Fridman (2:58:34.840)

And then, uh, she said, we'll go out there, see what happens, do it anyway.

Lex Fridman (2:58:37.880)

And you'll be, you'll regret it if you didn't.

Lex Fridman (2:58:39.640)

And then I ended up doing ultimate fighter.

Lex Fridman (2:58:41.240)

And then, so I fought three times on the show and then I fought, um, for the, for the finale.

Lex Fridman (2:58:47.560)

So there's four times in like five or six months, which was great.

Lex Fridman (2:58:51.160)

And then it took me a year to get another opponent.

Lex Fridman (2:58:53.640)

Um, and that was Gray Maynard.

Lex Fridman (2:58:55.480)

And then Gray was obviously very tough guy, um, managed to get a good outcome there.

Lex Fridman (2:58:58.920)

Then it took two years to fight BJ Penn.

Lex Fridman (2:59:02.600)

And that was, you know, obviously I'm training all the time every single day and that never

Lex Fridman (2:59:06.360)

stops, but that was, I'll be honest, like pretty deeply frustrating.

Ryan Hall (2:59:09.160)

Cause you know, as a, as a human being, as an athlete, you know, I think as an athlete,

Lex Fridman (2:59:12.440)

you die twice.

Ryan Hall (2:59:13.160)

Like you have an athletic peak or area and then, then you go on with the rest of your

Lex Fridman (2:59:17.160)

life, but it is a microcosm for the rest of your life.

Ryan Hall (2:59:19.560)

It's like, you're, you're seeing this, the sand tick away in the hourglass would drop

Lex Fridman (2:59:22.760)

away and you're going, man, this is, these are the years between 31, 32, 33.

Ryan Hall (2:59:27.800)

Like I'll be at my best at this time.

Ryan Hall (2:59:29.320)

My absolute best physically now, not technically I'm a lot better now than I was before.

Lex Fridman (2:59:33.320)

And I plan, but at a certain point you will, unless you're Bernard Hopkins, you will reach

Ryan Hall (2:59:37.320)

diminishing returns and I guess the long, the long way you can feel the clock ticking

Ryan Hall (2:59:42.520)

is frustrating.

Lex Fridman (2:59:44.040)

Why, why did it take two years for BJ?

Ryan Hall (2:59:46.760)

I, I, I, that's the question people ask a lot.

Lex Fridman (2:59:49.800)

It's like, why does nobody want to fight Ryan?

Ryan Hall (2:59:52.280)

I don't know.

Ryan Hall (2:59:52.680)

I probably, they probably think they'll get infected by whatever this is, but I don't,

Ryan Hall (2:59:56.360)

I don't blame them.

Lex Fridman (2:59:57.160)

But I would mean you're a really tough opponent as bought as the bottom line.

Lex Fridman (30:01.820)

But so the Jewish, the Holocaust is a separate thing.

Lex Fridman (30:09.980)

I don't know.

Ryan Hall (30:12.060)

Well, I don't know.

Lex Fridman (30:12.620)

I don't know what to think of it because so me being Jewish

Lex Fridman (30:15.820)

and having a lot of the echoes of the suffering is in my

Lex Fridman (30:21.900)

family or the people that are lost.

Ryan Hall (30:24.780)

I don't know because Hitler wrote all about it in Mein Kampf.

Lex Fridman (30:28.380)

So I don't know if the evil he committed was there all along.

Ryan Hall (30:32.780)

I mean, and that's where the question of forgiveness, I mean,

Lex Fridman (30:36.780)

Hitler is such a difficult person to talk about, but it's

Ryan Hall (30:39.420)

the question of cancer culture, who is deserving of forgiveness

Lex Fridman (30:46.380)

and who is not like the Holocaust survivors that I've read

Ryan Hall (30:50.940)

about that I've heard the interviews with.

Lex Fridman (30:53.340)

They've often spoken about the fact that the way for them

Ryan Hall (30:58.300)

to let go, to overcome the atrocities that they've experienced

Lex Fridman (31:05.020)

is to forgive.

Ryan Hall (31:05.900)

Like forgiveness is the way out for them.

Lex Fridman (31:09.980)

It's interesting to think about.

Ryan Hall (31:11.340)

I don't know if we're even as a society ready to even

Lex Fridman (31:15.820)

contemplate an idea of forgiveness for Hitler.

Ryan Hall (31:19.180)

It's an interesting idea though.

Lex Fridman (31:21.500)

It's a good thought exercise at the very least to think about

Ryan Hall (31:26.140)

like all these people that are being canceled for doing bad

Lex Fridman (31:31.740)

things of different degrees.

Ryan Hall (31:33.100)

Think of like Louis CK or somebody like that for being

Lex Fridman (31:36.300)

not a good person, but like, what is the path for forgiveness?

Lex Fridman (31:40.300)

And also what's a good person?

Lex Fridman (31:41.900)

What is a good person?

Ryan Hall (31:43.020)

If that's a sliding scale that we could all find ourselves

Lex Fridman (31:46.380)

looking at the uncomfortable end of a gun on, you know,

Ryan Hall (31:49.580)

particularly down the line.

Lex Fridman (31:50.780)

I mean, you hope for the best, but these definitions, I guess,

Ryan Hall (31:53.660)

like you said, are important and who's doing the canceling,

Lex Fridman (31:56.060)

who's being canceled.

Ryan Hall (31:57.100)

I'm not necessarily, as you said, saying that that's entirely

Lex Fridman (32:00.300)

unjustified or certainly not, it's certainly understandable.

Lex Fridman (32:03.340)

And particularly you mentioned like a monster, like an Adolf

Lex Fridman (32:05.820)

Hitler, but it's also interesting.

Ryan Hall (32:07.420)

I couldn't help but notice, like you mentioned as a society,

Lex Fridman (32:10.220)

us being able to apply forgiveness to someone who's

Ryan Hall (32:13.100)

done so much horror, but people who are personal, I mean,

Lex Fridman (32:17.020)

of course, many of us, so many people in person affected,

Lex Fridman (32:18.940)

but directly personally affected someone, a survivor of the

Lex Fridman (32:21.420)

Holocaust being able to let go on that.

Ryan Hall (32:24.060)

I'm nowhere near big enough a person for that sort of thing.

Lex Fridman (32:27.020)

But I guess that's an interesting thing, you know, being

Ryan Hall (32:31.340)

the person who was physically there, potentially able to

Lex Fridman (32:35.820)

let go, I don't know, that's unbelievably powerful.

Ryan Hall (32:39.660)

It's interesting.

Lex Fridman (32:40.300)

I guess you have to wonder sometimes, and this isn't

Ryan Hall (32:42.780)

obviously in regards to the Holocaust, but why I'm holding

Lex Fridman (32:47.020)

on to various things, have I, what is it doing for me and

Lex Fridman (32:50.300)

what is it doing to me?

Lex Fridman (32:51.660)

Is it facilitative, is it not?

Lex Fridman (32:53.500)

And I guess that's something else that I really want to

Lex Fridman (32:55.980)

talk about, something else that I really enjoy.

Ryan Hall (32:57.980)

When I was on Ultimate Fighter, they don't let you have any

Lex Fridman (33:01.580)

music or any books.

Ryan Hall (33:02.460)

I didn't have religious texts, so I brought a Bible and I

Lex Fridman (33:04.220)

brought a Quran and I started to read them side by side.

Lex Fridman (33:06.940)

And it was really interesting reading.

Lex Fridman (33:08.780)

The Bible's a little drier, the Quran's more interesting,

Ryan Hall (33:11.260)

at least written.

Lex Fridman (33:11.900)

But I think something that was consistently brought up was

Ryan Hall (33:17.900)

the way, most merciful.

Lex Fridman (33:20.220)

People want, I don't think any of us want justice.

Ryan Hall (33:22.700)

We think we want justice, but I don't think we want justice.

Lex Fridman (33:25.500)

This is a dangerous, dangerous, dangerous game, because maybe

Ryan Hall (33:28.700)

this person's wronged me deeply and I want justice.

Lex Fridman (33:31.180)

I want to balance it out, because what is justice if not

Lex Fridman (33:32.940)

a balancing of the scales?

Lex Fridman (33:34.300)

And sometimes you can understand it on a societal

Ryan Hall (33:36.060)

level, I think it's fine.

Lex Fridman (33:36.940)

I mean, there's crime and punishment and we can go for

Ryan Hall (33:39.500)

the benefits and the drawbacks of that.

Lex Fridman (33:41.100)

But I think what any of us want is mercy within reason, grace,

Ryan Hall (33:46.300)

as you mentioned, because justice is a very, very, very

Lex Fridman (33:48.860)

dangerous thing and it's a valuable and important thing.

Lex Fridman (33:51.660)

But who gets to decide what's just, what justice is actually

Lex Fridman (33:55.020)

meted out?

Ryan Hall (33:55.500)

Maybe I get to meet out justice, but it's not, I don't get

Lex Fridman (33:57.980)

my comeuppance.

Ryan Hall (33:58.620)

Well, that sounds great, but what happens when it's pointed

Lex Fridman (34:00.940)

back at me?

Lex Fridman (34:02.060)

And I guess that comes back to the veil of ignorance, the

Lex Fridman (34:05.740)

idea that one day I will have to live in the world in which

Ryan Hall (34:08.620)

I've envisioned and the world in which I've created.

Lex Fridman (34:11.500)

I think that a lot of times people love the idea of they're

Ryan Hall (34:15.580)

a judge for your crimes and a lawyer for theirs.

Lex Fridman (34:18.220)

And I heard that the other day.

Ryan Hall (34:19.420)

I thought that was great.

Lex Fridman (34:20.620)

And I think that's a dangerous thing and hopefully it gives

Ryan Hall (34:23.980)

us all pause before rightly or wrongly, but always understandably

Lex Fridman (34:29.180)

wielding serious power.

Ryan Hall (34:30.940)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (34:31.180)

Justice is a kind of drug.

Lex Fridman (34:32.620)

So if you look at history, I've also been reading a lot

Lex Fridman (34:35.500)

about Stalin.

Ryan Hall (34:36.460)

I mean, all those folks really, I don't know what was inside

Lex Fridman (34:42.540)

Hitler's head actually that he's a tricky one because I think

Ryan Hall (34:45.500)

he was legitimately insane.

Lex Fridman (34:47.660)

Stalin was not.

Lex Fridman (34:48.700)

And Stalin was like, he literally thought he's doing a good

Lex Fridman (34:53.500)

thing.

Ryan Hall (34:54.540)

He literally thought for the entirety of the time that communism

Lex Fridman (34:59.180)

is going to bring, like that's the utopia and he's going to

Ryan Hall (35:03.580)

create a happy world.

Lex Fridman (35:05.500)

And in his, in his mind were ideas of justice, of fairness,

Ryan Hall (35:13.020)

of happiness, of, of yeah, human flourishing.

Lex Fridman (35:19.420)

And that's, that's a drug and it's somehow sadly pollutes the

Ryan Hall (35:23.820)

mind when you start thinking like that, what's good for

Lex Fridman (35:26.220)

society and believing that you have a good sense of what's

Ryan Hall (35:30.860)

good for society.

Lex Fridman (35:32.700)

That's intoxicating, especially when others around you are

Ryan Hall (35:35.580)

feeling the same way.

Lex Fridman (35:36.780)

And then you start like building up this movement and you

Ryan Hall (35:40.220)

forget that you are just like, you're, you're like barely

Lex Fridman (35:45.180)

recently evolved from an ape.

Ryan Hall (35:46.860)

Like you don't know what the hell you're doing.

Lex Fridman (35:48.940)

And then you start like killing witches or whatever.

Ryan Hall (35:51.260)

Like you start, you start doing.

Lex Fridman (35:52.700)

They did math.

Ryan Hall (35:53.420)

Let's be honest though.

Lex Fridman (35:54.220)

I mean, sometimes you got a witch has to go.

Ryan Hall (35:56.620)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (35:56.780)

We can all agree that a witch, a witch has to go if, if it

Ryan Hall (36:00.300)

floats or sinks, which one, I forget which one.

Lex Fridman (36:02.860)

Whichever one we need at the time, honestly.

Lex Fridman (36:04.460)

Is it floating?

Lex Fridman (36:05.020)

It should have sunk.

Ryan Hall (36:07.740)

Yeah, but yeah, we can definitely agree that witches

Lex Fridman (36:09.980)

have to go because you brought it up.

Ryan Hall (36:13.420)

I tweeted recently, but also just, I'm one of the things

Lex Fridman (36:18.540)

I'm really ashamed of in my life is I haven't really read

Ryan Hall (36:22.540)

almost any of the sci fi classics.

Lex Fridman (36:24.780)

Really?

Ryan Hall (36:25.660)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (36:25.900)

So like I, my whole journey through reading was through

Ryan Hall (36:29.500)

like the literary philosophers that would say like Camus,

Lex Fridman (36:35.500)

Hase, Dostoevsky, Kafka, like that place, like that's a kind

Ryan Hall (36:41.100)

of sci fi world in itself, but it's, it just, it creates a

Lex Fridman (36:47.980)

world in which the, the deepest questions about human nature

Ryan Hall (36:53.340)

can be explored.

Lex Fridman (36:55.580)

I didn't realize this, but the sci fi world is the same.

Ryan Hall (37:00.140)

It just puts it in a, it like removes it from any kind of

Lex Fridman (37:03.740)

historical context where you can explore those same ideas

Ryan Hall (37:07.020)

in like space somewhere elsewhere in a different time,

Lex Fridman (37:09.500)

a different place.

Ryan Hall (37:10.540)

It allows you almost like more freedom to like construct

Lex Fridman (37:13.740)

these artificial things where you can just do crazy, crazy

Ryan Hall (37:17.980)

kind of human experiments.

Lex Fridman (37:19.100)

So I'm now working through it.

Ryan Hall (37:21.980)

The books on my list are the foundation series by

Lex Fridman (37:25.980)

Isaac Asimov, Dune, Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson and

Ryan Hall (37:32.940)

Ender's Game, like you mentioned.

Lex Fridman (37:34.940)

That's just kind of, and then, so I posted that.

Lex Fridman (37:37.580)

And then of course, like Elon Musk, John Carmack, I don't

Lex Fridman (37:41.820)

know if you know him, creator of Doom and Quake.

Ryan Hall (37:43.740)

Oh, cool.

Lex Fridman (37:44.700)

See, they all pitched in these nerds, these ultra nerds

Ryan Hall (37:47.660)

just started like going like these, you need to read this,

Lex Fridman (37:52.060)

that and the other.

Lex Fridman (37:53.340)

So I've like started working out.

Lex Fridman (37:55.660)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (37:56.460)

But it seems like the list I've mentioned holds up somewhat.

Lex Fridman (38:00.220)

Is there a book?

Ryan Hall (38:01.660)

Is there sci fi books or series or authors that you find

Lex Fridman (38:10.060)

are just amazing?

Ryan Hall (38:11.260)

Maybe another way to ask that is like, what's the greatest

Lex Fridman (38:13.820)

sci fi book of all time?

Ryan Hall (38:15.260)

Well, I'd like to start by sharing something that I'm

Lex Fridman (38:18.540)

embarrassed about is that I haven't read anything other

Ryan Hall (38:21.820)

than, you know, Orson Scott Card, J.R. Tolkien,

Lex Fridman (38:26.620)

Frank Herbert Tolkien.

Ryan Hall (38:28.140)

Yeah, I'm aware through Wikipedia and through surface

Lex Fridman (38:33.980)

reading of things that like a book called the Republic

Ryan Hall (38:36.060)

was written once.

Lex Fridman (38:38.540)

There were some other...

Lex Fridman (38:39.100)

Do you read Wikipedia?

Lex Fridman (38:40.780)

You're a prolific reader of Wikipedia articles.

Ryan Hall (38:43.740)

Well, or occasional.

Lex Fridman (38:45.020)

Occasional reader.

Ryan Hall (38:46.460)

Exactly.

Lex Fridman (38:47.020)

In between whatever else it is that I waste my time on.

Lex Fridman (38:50.060)

But yeah, so I also, I should say, I posted on Reddit

Lex Fridman (38:53.900)

questions for Ryan Hall and there's like a million

Ryan Hall (38:57.500)

questions, but like half of them have to do with Dune.

Lex Fridman (39:01.020)

No, not really.

Lex Fridman (39:01.660)

But like people bring up Dune.

Lex Fridman (39:03.340)

I don't understand why.

Lex Fridman (39:05.100)

Did you mention Dune before?

Lex Fridman (39:06.700)

Well, actually, we actually have a showy role actually

Ryan Hall (39:08.380)

made us a Gi, a Dune themed Gi one time, which I thought

Lex Fridman (39:11.660)

was kind of cool.

Ryan Hall (39:12.460)

I'll send you.

Lex Fridman (39:12.860)

I'll give you one.

Ryan Hall (39:13.260)

We got extra stuff.

Lex Fridman (39:14.220)

But actually, to your point, actually, this is Orson Scott

Ryan Hall (39:17.900)

Card quote, actually the writer of Ender's Game.

Lex Fridman (39:20.620)

Fiction, because it's not about somebody who actually

Ryan Hall (39:22.460)

lived in the real world always has the possibility of being

Lex Fridman (39:25.340)

about oneself.

Lex Fridman (39:26.140)

And I think that's a neat thing because I have heard other

Lex Fridman (39:30.700)

people whom I respect and very sharp people actually every

Ryan Hall (39:33.260)

now and then dig their heels and going, I don't like fiction.

Lex Fridman (39:35.340)

I only like nonfiction.

Ryan Hall (39:36.220)

It's more instructive.

Lex Fridman (39:37.500)

And I would go, I completely disagree with that.

Ryan Hall (39:39.740)

I think we have a hard enough time figuring out what happened

Lex Fridman (39:41.980)

at 711 three hours ago that, let me tell you what happened

Ryan Hall (39:45.580)

600 years BC.

Lex Fridman (39:47.180)

I'm like, hey, I'm interested.

Lex Fridman (39:48.220)

But don't tell me this isn't a story too.

Lex Fridman (39:49.820)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (39:50.300)

There's factual components, I have no doubt.

Lex Fridman (39:54.060)

But we struggle sometimes to like, I guess what I like

Ryan Hall (39:57.500)

about fiction is that you can tell me a story.

Lex Fridman (3:00:00.760)

I'll say that I'm different.

Ryan Hall (3:00:01.960)

Maybe they perceive that the, the, the, the threat is greater than the reward.

Ryan Hall (3:00:06.200)

I'm hoping that now that we're ranked number 12, you know, in the UFC rankings that, that,

Ryan Hall (3:00:11.080)

that will change.

Lex Fridman (3:00:11.720)

And I know that if we're one more win and then we're in the top 10 that, you know, now,

Ryan Hall (3:00:16.360)

now we're, you're there.

Lex Fridman (3:00:17.720)

But what I've consistently found is that like randoms want to fight and I'm like, go away.

Ryan Hall (3:00:21.960)

I didn't come here for you.

Ryan Hall (3:00:23.160)

You know, cause if I wanted to just fight anybody, I could go down to a waffle house

Lex Fridman (3:00:26.120)

and yell until like DMX shows up and we can, we can fight.

Lex Fridman (3:00:28.680)

Cause he'll be at the waffle house too.

Lex Fridman (3:00:29.720)

Who am I kidding?

Lex Fridman (3:00:30.120)

I really want to hang out with the MX.

Lex Fridman (3:00:31.640)

But you know, it's like, you want to, when I had the opportunity, oh my God, that was

Lex Fridman (3:00:36.360)

so cool.

Ryan Hall (3:00:37.080)

I was, I would never, I would never fight DMX.

Lex Fridman (3:00:39.720)

We'd be on the same team.

Lex Fridman (3:00:41.240)

But anyway it's, I guess I accepted fights against, I asked, they got asked about Lamas.

Lex Fridman (3:00:48.600)

I said, yes.

Ryan Hall (3:00:49.240)

I got asked about Dennis Bermudez.

Lex Fridman (3:00:50.760)

I said, yes.

Ryan Hall (3:00:51.960)

You know, like long periods of time.

Lex Fridman (3:00:53.240)

And they, at that time, well, you know, in between 2016 and 2018 I was struggling to

Ryan Hall (3:00:59.800)

have, have opponents who would sign up.

Lex Fridman (3:01:01.880)

And so I haven't turned down fights.

Ryan Hall (3:01:04.360)

I've just said, Hey, you know, keep the, I don't care about fighting the randoms.

Lex Fridman (3:01:07.960)

And it's, you have a successful school.

Ryan Hall (3:01:10.200)

You're like, you're running your martial artists broadly speaking.

Lex Fridman (3:01:15.480)

So it doesn't make sense to take fights that aren't like that fit a certain kind of trajectory

Ryan Hall (3:01:21.880)

for your career.

Lex Fridman (3:01:22.520)

And that's when, when BJ Penn, they said, well, BJ is looking for an opponent.

Ryan Hall (3:01:25.480)

I was like, I'm, I'm your guy.

Ryan Hall (3:01:27.000)

And, and I think that, you know, BJ accepted that fight because I'm another jujitsu guy.

Ryan Hall (3:01:31.320)

I don't think he, he, he perceived that I was much of a threat on the feet.

Ryan Hall (3:01:35.720)

And, you know, I was able to, it was neat to get it to compete against someone, you

Ryan Hall (3:01:42.200)

know, who's one of my heroes, one of the people I looked up to in MMA for the longest time.

Lex Fridman (3:01:45.720)

Were you intimidated by that?

Ryan Hall (3:01:47.160)

No, no, I love competing.

Lex Fridman (3:01:48.920)

I don't really get nervous or scared before fights.

Ryan Hall (3:01:51.720)

I'm not afraid to get hurt.

Lex Fridman (3:01:52.680)

I'm not afraid to win.

Ryan Hall (3:01:53.640)

I'm not afraid to lose.

Ryan Hall (3:01:54.920)

It's, I, I'm just excited for the, I feel thankful for the opportunity to compete and

Ryan Hall (3:01:59.000)

the opportunity to, to play when it matters.

Ryan Hall (3:02:01.480)

You know, I, I just, that's the only time I'm interested in playing anymore is when

Ryan Hall (3:02:05.720)

it, when it matters, when the opposition is, I know that, you know, it's funny because

Ryan Hall (3:02:09.400)

people pick on, on a lot of some opponents, particularly after, after the fact, like if

Ryan Hall (3:02:14.040)

you, if you get a good outcome, well then, oh, of course, let's beat that guy.

Lex Fridman (3:02:17.000)

That guy wasn't that good.

Ryan Hall (3:02:17.800)

I'm like, well, I wasn't, that's after the fact.

Lex Fridman (3:02:19.800)

I get to say that.

Lex Fridman (3:02:20.840)

And also as the person in the ring, you know, BJ Penn has heard a lot of people in mixed

Lex Fridman (3:02:25.720)

martial arts cage and I could actually absolutely have been on that list.

Lex Fridman (3:02:30.440)

So it was neat to get to compete against someone that I really respect, someone that I looked

Lex Fridman (3:02:34.360)

up to for a long time, someone who has a great skillset.

Lex Fridman (3:02:37.560)

And also I went up in weight to fight him at his weight class.

Lex Fridman (3:02:39.960)

He didn't have to come down to mine, which is where he'd take it.

Ryan Hall (3:02:42.360)

It was lightweight.

Lex Fridman (3:02:43.000)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (3:02:43.640)

I'm generally a featherweight.

Lex Fridman (3:02:44.760)

I walk around at like 158 pounds.

Lex Fridman (3:02:46.840)

So what's the lightweight and featherweight?

Ryan Hall (3:02:49.640)

Lightweight is 155 with the day before Wayne and featherweight is 145 with the day before

Ryan Hall (3:02:53.880)

Wayne.

Lex Fridman (3:02:54.200)

So I'm a little bit more properly sized for featherweight.

Lex Fridman (3:02:57.400)

But anyway, you know, I, so I didn't feel like obviously he was giving up a couple

Lex Fridman (3:03:02.760)

years of age, but I was giving up size and all this other stuff.

Lex Fridman (3:03:06.360)

And it was, you know, I was just excited to have the opportunity to step in against someone

Ryan Hall (3:03:09.960)

like BJ and you know, we managed to get out of there with a, with a good outcome without

Ryan Hall (3:03:14.840)

getting too banged up.

Lex Fridman (3:03:16.440)

But just, it was cool cause we tied up on the fence and just even the second, you know,

Ryan Hall (3:03:21.160)

is when you're rolling with somebody and you touch and you can feel what they're doing

Lex Fridman (3:03:24.120)

and you go, man, this guy's really good.

Ryan Hall (3:03:25.960)

You can feel the calm, you can feel the small minor adjustments that they're making, the

Lex Fridman (3:03:29.320)

subtle things that they're doing.

Lex Fridman (3:03:30.840)

And that was one of those things that was really neat and gratifying because you know,

Lex Fridman (3:03:34.760)

you never know.

Ryan Hall (3:03:35.320)

Sometimes people that you've heard of are a little bit less technically proficient than

Lex Fridman (3:03:38.600)

you thought.

Lex Fridman (3:03:39.000)

And other times you'll meet some guy that you're training like, who the hell is this

Lex Fridman (3:03:41.560)

guy?

Lex Fridman (3:03:41.720)

How have I not heard of this person?

Lex Fridman (3:03:43.480)

And BJ was exactly, as a jiu jitsu guy, what I would have thought.

Lex Fridman (3:03:47.640)

And another thing, that's another thing that bugged me about how people reacted after the

Lex Fridman (3:03:51.400)

fight is, you know, basically going, oh, BJ screwed up this, screwed up that.

Lex Fridman (3:03:55.480)

And I'm like, all right, yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:03:57.240)

That's so interesting.

Ryan Hall (3:03:58.760)

That's sad.

Ryan Hall (3:04:00.360)

That was, you know, one of the, and to me, I mean, as a fan of both, that was a beautiful

Ryan Hall (3:04:05.640)

moment as a, as a kind of passing of a torch in a sense of exceptional performance.

Ryan Hall (3:04:13.080)

Like another one that stands out to me, maybe you can comment, is I don't understand, well,

Ryan Hall (3:04:20.280)

maybe I do, why Conor McGregor gets as much hate as he does.

Lex Fridman (3:04:24.520)

He probably revels in it.

Lex Fridman (3:04:26.440)

But I think he doesn't get enough credit for Jose Aldo for the, for like, for basically,

Lex Fridman (3:04:37.560)

you know, knocking him out in the first few seconds of a fight.

Ryan Hall (3:04:44.840)

I mean, Jose is like one of the greatest fighters ever.

Lex Fridman (3:04:47.960)

That's true.

Ryan Hall (3:04:49.160)

Maybe some people can even put him in the top 10.

Lex Fridman (3:04:51.720)

No question.

Lex Fridman (3:04:52.600)

And the, like, I don't understand why it's, doesn't get as much, like Conor McGregor

Ryan Hall (3:05:01.080)

doesn't get as much credit as I think he deserves for that and for Eddie Alvarez and all the

Ryan Hall (3:05:07.080)

fights, for some reason, whenever Conor McGregor beats somebody, well, they were not that good

Lex Fridman (3:05:15.480)

then.

Ryan Hall (3:05:15.960)

Like, it means like they were, they were, something was off.

Lex Fridman (3:05:19.080)

Right.

Lex Fridman (3:05:19.560)

That's convenient, isn't it?

Lex Fridman (3:05:20.760)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (3:05:21.080)

It's quite strange to me.

Lex Fridman (3:05:23.320)

But I mean, what are your thoughts on the, on Conor McGregor?

Ryan Hall (3:05:29.160)

Maybe one way to ask that, I'm Russian, so I'm obviously also a Khabib fan, but I'm also

Lex Fridman (3:05:33.720)

a Conor fan, it seems like there's not many of us who are, like, fans of both.

Ryan Hall (3:05:37.000)

Right.

Lex Fridman (3:05:38.200)

What are your thoughts?

Ryan Hall (3:05:39.000)

You and Artem Lobov.

Lex Fridman (3:05:41.560)

The two of us, which also is a good fight.

Ryan Hall (3:05:45.240)

Tough dude.

Lex Fridman (3:05:45.960)

Yeah, really, really tough dude.

Ryan Hall (3:05:47.800)

He's like five languages, really interesting kid.

Lex Fridman (3:05:49.640)

Oh, so, oh wow, I didn't know that side of it.

Ryan Hall (3:05:52.040)

There's a brain there.

Lex Fridman (3:05:54.040)

Well, on the Khabib versus Conor, what do you make of their first fight?

Lex Fridman (3:05:57.880)

What do you, do you agree with me that they should fight again?

Lex Fridman (3:06:00.840)

Because I think it would be awesome if they fought again in Moscow.

Lex Fridman (3:06:04.840)

And do you agree with me, I'm just going to put, say things that piss people off,

Lex Fridman (3:06:09.720)

but I believe is that Conor actually has a chance to beat Khabib.

Ryan Hall (3:06:13.880)

One, that Conor absolutely has a chance to beat Khabib.

Ryan Hall (3:06:16.120)

Conor has a chance to beat anyone that he steps into that ring with, and not just like

Ryan Hall (3:06:19.000)

a mathematical chance.

Ryan Hall (3:06:19.960)

You're like, oh, one of the billion, but like, you know, like he absolutely, it's funny

Ryan Hall (3:06:24.120)

because I won't pretend to know Conor really well, but I first met Conor in 2010 when I

Lex Fridman (3:06:27.800)

was teaching a seminar in, at Strait Blast Gym Ireland in Dublin.

Lex Fridman (3:06:31.960)

And that's actually where I first met all of the coaches that ended up being on Conor's

Lex Fridman (3:06:36.040)

team.

Ryan Hall (3:06:37.320)

You know, John Kavanaugh, Owen Roddy, Gunnar Nelson, you know, so for, I actually, I enjoyed

Ryan Hall (3:06:42.600)

being on Ultimate Fighter and being on Uriah Faber's team and getting to train with all

Ryan Hall (3:06:46.440)

the guys there.

Lex Fridman (3:06:46.920)

But at the same time, the people that I was actually, I knew better were actually the

Ryan Hall (3:06:50.120)

European side, all of Conor's coaches.

Lex Fridman (3:06:52.040)

And that was a neat thing because I got to, I met Conor, I didn't know who Conor, like

Ryan Hall (3:06:57.800)

Conor wasn't Conor at that point.

Lex Fridman (3:06:58.840)

Yeah, that was before his UFC debut.

Ryan Hall (3:07:00.680)

Oh yeah, well, well before, yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:07:01.880)

I think, I think he got in like 2014, maybe something like that.

Ryan Hall (3:07:04.680)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:07:05.180)

And anyway, but he was doing well in Cage Warriors, winning the titles there.

Ryan Hall (3:07:08.760)

I think prior to that, you know, I remember going, seeing him on the show and also then

Ryan Hall (3:07:13.640)

getting to see him train because I competed, I was initially slated to fight David Tamer

Ryan Hall (3:07:19.000)

for the Ultimate Fighter finale before getting put in to fight Artem for the title for the

Lex Fridman (3:07:22.840)

show.

Lex Fridman (3:07:23.340)

So I went over to Ireland to train for a couple of days and basically it was neat to watch

Lex Fridman (3:07:27.640)

him, watch him work.

Ryan Hall (3:07:28.600)

I mean, man is focused and trains a lot and very, very smart and very, very hardworking.

Lex Fridman (3:07:33.640)

And I think a lot of times people get stuck in the, in this, you know, and they almost

Ryan Hall (3:07:40.520)

want to believe that this was lucky or this, this person, you know, like they're not working

Lex Fridman (3:07:44.920)

that hard.

Ryan Hall (3:07:45.240)

They're just out there.

Lex Fridman (3:07:45.960)

They got there with their mouth and that's, that's just not the case.

Lex Fridman (3:07:49.560)

And you know, I don't know what it's like, you know, obviously Connors very well off

Ryan Hall (3:07:52.840)

right now and I don't know how hard, how seriously he's training, what he's doing.

Ryan Hall (3:07:55.480)

I can't speak to any of that, but there's no question that he has skills to be dangerous.

Lex Fridman (3:07:59.960)

And one of the funny things, obviously the Khabib fight when Khabib was a great fighter

Lex Fridman (3:08:03.480)

and also has the chance to beat anyone in that ring at any given time.

Lex Fridman (3:08:07.400)

But there's, there was a Conner, you know, it's a one that he can, he can put anybody

Ryan Hall (3:08:14.760)

away.

Lex Fridman (3:08:16.040)

And as you mentioned, I think that he doesn't get the credit for the Eddie Alvarez fight.

Ryan Hall (3:08:19.400)

He doesn't get the credit for the Jose Aldo fight.

Lex Fridman (3:08:20.760)

Cause it was almost so much of a letdown.

Ryan Hall (3:08:22.120)

I remember that happened the same weekend that I did the ultimate fighter finale.

Lex Fridman (3:08:25.400)

And you're like, all right, wait, what?

Ryan Hall (3:08:28.760)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (3:08:29.240)

It almost doesn't feel like a fight happening, but we mentioned Miyamoto Musashi.

Ryan Hall (3:08:32.280)

I mean, Musashi was famous for the way he poked and prodded that people with what he

Ryan Hall (3:08:36.120)

was doing, whether overtly or not, it's like, Oh, we're supposed to fight to the death.

Ryan Hall (3:08:39.320)

And, uh, you know, at 3 PM tomorrow, great.

Lex Fridman (3:08:41.480)

4 PM rolls around, I'm just not there.

Ryan Hall (3:08:43.560)

Five.

Ryan Hall (3:08:44.040)

I mean, you remember all the, all the antics and nonsense that Conner was pulling prior

Ryan Hall (3:08:47.000)

to that, like speaking personally, that's not, it's not something I would feel comfortable

Lex Fridman (3:08:50.360)

doing, but it's like, everyone's different.

Lex Fridman (3:08:52.120)

And the effect that it had on, on Jose was, I mean, beyond evident.

Ryan Hall (3:08:55.240)

When was the last time Jose started the, started the fight with leaping left hand,

Lex Fridman (3:08:59.320)

leaping right hand, you're like, wait, what?

Lex Fridman (3:09:01.240)

And then he was obviously, you know, living rent free and in Jose's head at that point.

Lex Fridman (3:09:06.680)

And that was a combination of psychological, you know, ability and, and, and wherewithal

Lex Fridman (3:09:11.640)

and then physical.

Lex Fridman (3:09:12.680)

And it reminded me of the way Muhammad Ali would, would bother people and whatnot.

Ryan Hall (3:09:15.960)

And, uh, the fact that he's a polarizing figure, um, I think makes some people not give him

Ryan Hall (3:09:21.640)

his due.

Lex Fridman (3:09:22.120)

And then at the same time, sometimes certain fans may be go overboard, but, uh, they remember

Ryan Hall (3:09:27.080)

the knee that Ben Askren got knocked out with by Masoudal.

Ryan Hall (3:09:30.600)

I mean, that was an amazing, unbelievable thing, but three inches to the right, three

Ryan Hall (3:09:34.440)

inches to the left, I guess, whichever side his head wasn't, could have been squarer.

Ryan Hall (3:09:38.360)

But, uh, and that fight starts with Ben Askren on top of you in the first five seconds.

Ryan Hall (3:09:43.960)

Well, Connor ran and threw a knee just like that at Khabib and Khabib got right around

Lex Fridman (3:09:48.840)

it.

Ryan Hall (3:09:48.840)

That could have easily gone the other way.

Lex Fridman (3:09:50.120)

Can you imagine what would have happened if after the, after coming back from boxing,

Ryan Hall (3:09:53.480)

um, after coming back from, from the Mayweather fight, Connor, in the first 10 seconds, it's

Ryan Hall (3:09:58.840)

Khabib in the first 10 seconds, it's over and you're like, he would, it would have been

Ryan Hall (3:10:04.600)

intolerable, but basically, like, you know, but see, here's the thing.

Lex Fridman (3:10:08.680)

Let me actually push back slightly.

Ryan Hall (3:10:10.360)

Uh, I mean, to the fans, correct me if I'm wrong, but Connor seems to cause I've competed

Lex Fridman (3:10:18.600)

a lot and like there's a tension.

Ryan Hall (3:10:20.440)

There's a negativity sometimes depending on the opponent and there's a respect afterwards

Ryan Hall (3:10:26.040)

that happens, like when you understand that there's a deep like respect and almost like

Ryan Hall (3:10:30.600)

love for each other.

Lex Fridman (3:10:32.440)

Like, I always seen that in Connor, like all the trash talk afterwards.

Ryan Hall (3:10:37.160)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (3:10:37.560)

There's a, it's, it's a subtle thing.

Ryan Hall (3:10:39.560)

You can't always see it, but there's a respect like.

Lex Fridman (3:10:42.040)

I agree.

Lex Fridman (3:10:42.920)

And like that, I almost on the Khabib side, I almost feel like Khabib really took it personally.

Lex Fridman (3:10:51.400)

He did, he didn't, he lost the respect for Connor.

Ryan Hall (3:10:54.200)

I thought, I thought the whole time Connor had the respect.

Lex Fridman (3:10:56.440)

So I, I, what I wanted to say is like, if Connor won that fight, like rock Khabib, I

Ryan Hall (3:11:01.160)

could see like, I wouldn't see trash talking.

Lex Fridman (3:11:04.520)

I could see like trash talking stop right there.

Ryan Hall (3:11:07.000)

I think so too, but at the same time, I'm sure you recall like Connor, Connor crossing

Ryan Hall (3:11:10.760)

some pretty personal territory, you know, both religiously and, and also familiarly

Ryan Hall (3:11:14.680)

with, uh, with Khabib.

Lex Fridman (3:11:15.640)

And it's, you know, I mean, I think it's the sort of thing that, I don't know, it's, it's

Ryan Hall (3:11:19.880)

an interesting, that's one of the reasons.

Ryan Hall (3:11:21.720)

Like you have to know the diff so obviously I know the, the, the Khabib, uh, the Dagestani

Ryan Hall (3:11:28.040)

people, they don't play around like that.

Lex Fridman (3:11:29.960)

They don't play around like that.

Ryan Hall (3:11:31.960)

You know, I mean, they take offense to basically, I mean, you, you don't do that.

Ryan Hall (3:11:36.040)

So, uh, so like Connor didn't, maybe he did it on purpose or maybe he wasn't even just

Ryan Hall (3:11:42.680)

aware of, of, uh, it was cultural differences of the box he opened.

Ryan Hall (3:11:47.640)

Like you, you can talk to Floyd Mayweather, you can, you can go anywhere with him.

Ryan Hall (3:11:52.440)

You can, you can say the most offensive things, but with, uh, with Khabib, it's, it's, yeah,

Ryan Hall (3:11:58.840)

hard lines, but you, uh, I mean, a lot of people ask, I know you're a featherweight,

Lex Fridman (3:12:03.400)

but if you were to, uh, face, it feels like Khabib was one of the hardest puzzles to solve

Lex Fridman (3:12:11.400)

in, in all of mixed martial arts.

Lex Fridman (3:12:13.960)

If you were to face Khabib, do you think, how would you go about solving that puzzle?

Lex Fridman (3:12:19.800)

Like almost the question is almost from a Jiu Jitsu perspective too.

Lex Fridman (3:12:23.800)

What do you do with a guy that's exceptionally good at controlling position, especially on

Lex Fridman (3:12:28.840)

top, very good at wrestling and taking down and controlling position.

Ryan Hall (3:12:32.840)

Like let's say, so forget maybe striking on the ground.

Lex Fridman (3:12:38.280)

How do you solve that guy?

Ryan Hall (3:12:40.360)

Like what do you do with your guard if you get taken down or do you create an entire

Ryan Hall (3:12:44.680)

system of not getting taken down or escaping is like, what, what ideas do you have for

Lex Fridman (3:12:49.080)

that?

Lex Fridman (3:12:50.080)

Well, I guess I would say in my mind, fighting is a game of trading energy.

Ryan Hall (3:12:53.080)

Um, kind of, uh, you know, there's two, there's two things, there's damage and there's energy.

Lex Fridman (3:12:58.240)

So like when I say energy and being like, uh, tired, not tired, how much, how much gas

Ryan Hall (3:13:02.360)

you've got.

Lex Fridman (3:13:03.360)

Um, and then damage counts obviously as well.

Ryan Hall (3:13:05.880)

Um, you could be feeling, I could be feeling great and then you get to kick me in the head

Lex Fridman (3:13:09.000)

hard, really hard three times.

Ryan Hall (3:13:10.560)

It doesn't matter that I could get up and run a mile.

Lex Fridman (3:13:12.080)

I can't get up.

Lex Fridman (3:13:13.240)

So anyway, um, you know, I, I think what Khabib does is so well is he makes the fight look

Lex Fridman (3:13:18.960)

like it could be an amalgamated fight.

Ryan Hall (3:13:20.560)

Um, he does a great job of avoiding damage on the feet for the most part and really sucking

Lex Fridman (3:13:25.960)

the life out of people with how suffocating and oppressive is his control is.

Ryan Hall (3:13:30.280)

Um, his chain wrestling is as good as anyone we've ever seen in the UFC.

Lex Fridman (3:13:33.820)

It's fantastic.

Ryan Hall (3:13:34.820)

Um, but, uh, that poses a really serious threat for people that need to maintain a certain

Ryan Hall (3:13:40.220)

amount of space and try to hurt them on the feed because unless they're able to inflict

Ryan Hall (3:13:44.320)

an adequate amount of damage, they're going to each time, let's say for instance, let's

Lex Fridman (3:13:48.400)

say him taking them down as a foregone conclusion at some point.

Ryan Hall (3:13:51.320)

Um, if every single time Khabib takes you down, you get right back up.

Ryan Hall (3:13:55.000)

It's not that big a deal, um, because it's actually more, we've all experienced this.

Ryan Hall (3:13:58.680)

Let's say you and I are rolling, you tap me 15 times in one round.

Lex Fridman (3:14:01.480)

Who's more tired?

Ryan Hall (3:14:02.480)

Probably you are.

Lex Fridman (3:14:03.480)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (3:14:04.480)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:14:05.480)

My ass so badly that, that it's like, you're the only one working, but, um,

Lex Fridman (3:14:08.240)

So if you're comfortable with the up and down of it, like being taken down.

Ryan Hall (3:14:13.560)

If you're, if you don't, if you don't get hurt badly or tired on the bottom, you have

Ryan Hall (3:14:18.840)

a chance, but that doesn't involve just cracking him on the feet before he gets ahold of you.

Lex Fridman (3:14:23.520)

Um,

Ryan Hall (3:14:24.520)

That's a lot.

Lex Fridman (3:14:25.520)

That's a lot to ask.

Ryan Hall (3:14:26.520)

That's a lot to ask.

Lex Fridman (3:14:27.520)

That's difficult to do.

Ryan Hall (3:14:28.520)

It seemed actually like Connor, it seemed like it when he was being kind of taken down

Ryan Hall (3:14:32.540)

or the, the take down attempts against Khabib, he seemed to be somewhat relaxed the whole

Ryan Hall (3:14:37.680)

thing.

Lex Fridman (3:14:38.680)

I thought he was doing well, actually.

Ryan Hall (3:14:39.680)

I think that particularly for the first round, I thought he did a very good job.

Ryan Hall (3:14:42.320)

It's just one of those things that I think like, uh, Khabib being the fights taking place

Ryan Hall (3:14:47.260)

in Khabib's world in large part.

Lex Fridman (3:14:49.560)

And I mean, set aside that one giant, uh, was it right hand that, that Khabib hit Connor

Ryan Hall (3:14:53.760)

with it, by the way, Connor reacted like an absolute champion.

Ryan Hall (3:14:56.040)

He got crushed by that overhand and then drop and his eyes went right back on Khabib.

Ryan Hall (3:15:01.400)

It was immediate positive, great response.

Lex Fridman (3:15:03.560)

So even though that was, I think that was a bit of a surprising thing, Connor reacted

Ryan Hall (3:15:06.960)

really, really well.

Lex Fridman (3:15:07.960)

But if you're going to be on bottom with Khabib for four rounds, that's going to be tough.

Lex Fridman (3:15:11.880)

And also Connor's a way better grappler than people like to give him credit for, but he's

Ryan Hall (3:15:15.840)

not the type of grappler that can do that can, that can, that's too tall of an order,

Lex Fridman (3:15:20.520)

but there are grapplers that could do that or at least would have a much, much better

Lex Fridman (3:15:23.560)

shot at, uh, being able to weather that type of a storm.

Lex Fridman (3:15:26.560)

Do you see yourself being able to be relaxed through that kind of storm?

Ryan Hall (3:15:30.440)

Well, I guess I can remember being, being, being, being savagely beaten is very relaxing.

Ryan Hall (3:15:39.160)

The time that the timing of that answer was like, okay, that's a dumb question.

Lex Fridman (3:15:45.280)

No, that's ultimately the goal of Jiu Jitsu is to, um, be relaxed to the fire.

Ryan Hall (3:15:51.840)

For sure.

Lex Fridman (3:15:52.840)

And remember like every UFC fighter, I win all hypothetical matchups.

Ryan Hall (3:15:55.960)

Yeah, that's true.

Ryan Hall (3:15:59.440)

Uh, since, uh, I'm one to ask ridiculous questions and we've been talking about sci fi and all

Ryan Hall (3:16:06.160)

that kind of stuff.

Ryan Hall (3:16:07.160)

Let me ask the kind of big question that everybody disagrees about, certainly with me is, uh,

Ryan Hall (3:16:12.320)

who are the top five greatest MMA fighters of all time and, um, um, why is Fedor number

Lex Fridman (3:16:18.920)

one?

Ryan Hall (3:16:19.920)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (3:16:20.920)

Well, first off, Fedor is number one.

Lex Fridman (3:16:21.920)

Oh really?

Lex Fridman (3:16:22.920)

Oh yeah.

Ryan Hall (3:16:23.920)

Right there with you.

Lex Fridman (3:16:24.920)

Really?

Ryan Hall (3:16:25.920)

Oh yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:16:26.920)

Talk about people that just get completely underappreciated.

Ryan Hall (3:16:27.920)

He's never been in the, uh, like he's never succeeded in the UFC.

Lex Fridman (3:16:30.440)

It's not his fault.

Ryan Hall (3:16:31.680)

It came along after him at the time that, at the time that Fedor was at his height,

Lex Fridman (3:16:35.480)

the UFC was not where it was at for heavyweight fighting.

Ryan Hall (3:16:38.440)

I mean, not that there weren't good heavyweights there, but Fedor, Fedor was unbelievable.

Lex Fridman (3:16:42.800)

You know what I mean?

Ryan Hall (3:16:43.800)

You remember, I mean, Minotaur Noguera, I was a massive fan of him.

Ryan Hall (3:16:47.320)

I still remember watching, uh, what is it pride 2004 when, when Noguera fought Cro Cop

Lex Fridman (3:16:52.060)

and got blasted with that left kick and dropped with like seconds left in the first round.

Ryan Hall (3:16:56.680)

Pride was great cause he had a 10 minute first round and that five minute second, which again

Ryan Hall (3:16:59.600)

materially alters, alters the fight big time.

Lex Fridman (3:17:02.360)

And you know, just the texture of the fight is just totally, it's borderline a different

Ryan Hall (3:17:05.200)

sport, you know, then, then getting a five, a pause and a five.

Lex Fridman (3:17:09.000)

But anyway, uh, similar sports, like one of those swimming things where they have nine

Lex Fridman (3:17:12.160)

gold medals for different types of swimming, right?

Lex Fridman (3:17:14.240)

But still swimming.

Lex Fridman (3:17:15.240)

But anyway, um,

Lex Fridman (3:17:16.240)

Oh yeah.

Ryan Hall (3:17:17.240)

They would disagree.

Lex Fridman (3:17:18.240)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (3:17:19.240)

I don't mean, I'm not trying to.

Lex Fridman (3:17:20.240)

They specialize in that.

Ryan Hall (3:17:21.240)

Of course.

Lex Fridman (3:17:22.240)

It's so, it's totally true.

Ryan Hall (3:17:23.240)

10, 10 minutes is different than five minutes.

Lex Fridman (3:17:24.240)

Sorry.

Ryan Hall (3:17:25.240)

Don't take, don't, don't, don't drown me swimmers.

Lex Fridman (3:17:27.160)

I don't swim very well.

Ryan Hall (3:17:28.160)

It's easy for me to, easy for me to downplay it, but anyway, um, uh, yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:17:32.520)

And then no,

Ryan Hall (3:17:33.520)

Better than, uh, John Jones, like the modern era.

Lex Fridman (3:17:36.080)

Well, I mean, I guess it's, it's tough to compete, to compare across eras.

Ryan Hall (3:17:40.160)

It would be like going and saying like, Oh man, how, how would such and such great grappler

Lex Fridman (3:17:44.480)

from today fare against someone from 1995?

Ryan Hall (3:17:47.520)

I'm like, well, probably pretty well for them, depending upon who they are, what's going

Lex Fridman (3:17:52.960)

on.

Ryan Hall (3:17:53.960)

There's some people that would, their skill sets might transition across eras, but a lot

Lex Fridman (3:17:57.080)

of times not, but that's not fair.

Ryan Hall (3:17:59.000)

We get the, they'll be like comparing Spartans to modern day, you know, like army guys.

Lex Fridman (3:18:04.120)

You're like, well, who's going to win?

Lex Fridman (3:18:05.120)

I'm like, well, did modern day army guys get modern day weapons?

Lex Fridman (3:18:07.640)

Well, yeah, but who's the toughest ruggedest group of people at the very least?

Lex Fridman (3:18:11.880)

So I guess it's, it's tough to say, but at least in my mind, the people that I think

Ryan Hall (3:18:14.840)

about for great fighters, their, their, their quality of opposition, um, their level of

Ryan Hall (3:18:20.120)

like lasting and like success, their level of lasting innovation.

Ryan Hall (3:18:23.520)

Like the courage that they have to demonstrate, because again, it's like being a big fish

Ryan Hall (3:18:26.920)

in a small pond takes no courage.

Ryan Hall (3:18:28.680)

Doesn't mean that there's nothing there, but it just requires something a little bit different.

Lex Fridman (3:18:32.520)

So Kazushi Sakuraba is one of my guys too.

Lex Fridman (3:18:34.840)

Um, BJ Penn also, I mean, BJ Penn fought Lyoto Machida.

Ryan Hall (3:18:39.160)

That's insane.

Lex Fridman (3:18:40.400)

You know, it's, that was a time, it was a different sport.

Ryan Hall (3:18:42.800)

It was a different time in the sport where, you know, they were, some guys were, were

Ryan Hall (3:18:45.600)

bouncing around doing different things, but let's, so I guess the Gracie family, it's,

Ryan Hall (3:18:50.040)

I mean, they never had an in like, obviously Hoist was there, um, but they never, and that

Lex Fridman (3:18:54.880)

was a definitely a different sport.

Ryan Hall (3:18:56.320)

Weight classes being open, things like that.

Lex Fridman (3:18:57.800)

Yeah, but you have to say that Hoist is up there.

Ryan Hall (3:18:59.760)

Oh, no question.

Lex Fridman (3:19:00.760)

One of the greatest ever.

Ryan Hall (3:19:01.760)

I think so too.

Lex Fridman (3:19:02.760)

And again, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you, um, if it weren't for him.

Lex Fridman (3:19:06.600)

So the Gracie family as a whole, but I mean, who's the better, I mean, I think Hoist would

Ryan Hall (3:19:11.880)

tell you himself probably that, that Hickson would have handled business back then, but

Ryan Hall (3:19:15.440)

they didn't put him in.

Lex Fridman (3:19:16.440)

So again, he's the greatest fighter, the greatest fighter, the greatest fighter that we saw

Ryan Hall (3:19:19.060)

do his business.

Lex Fridman (3:19:20.060)

So Hoist up there for sure.

Lex Fridman (3:19:21.480)

What about, so this is like, nobody seems to agree with me on this, but like this connects

Lex Fridman (3:19:26.080)

to soccer again and Messi.

Ryan Hall (3:19:28.200)

It seems that people value like how long you've been a champion, how many like defenses of

Lex Fridman (3:19:36.040)

the championship that you've had successfully.

Ryan Hall (3:19:39.340)

To me, I highly value singular moments of genius.

Lex Fridman (3:19:43.760)

So like, like, I, I don't, like, if you look at Conor McGregor, he hasn't, I guess, held,

Ryan Hall (3:19:49.640)

I've been a champion very long, very much.

Lex Fridman (3:19:51.640)

Well, he didn't defend either title, right?

Ryan Hall (3:19:53.120)

He didn't defend any other, uh, either of the titles, but like, if you talk, and same

Ryan Hall (3:19:58.280)

with Messi, if you look at, uh, Lionel Messi, there's just moments of brilliance unlike

Ryan Hall (3:20:04.260)

any other in history for both Conor and Messi.

Lex Fridman (3:20:07.640)

And people don't seem to give credits like, well, how many world cups have you won?

Lex Fridman (3:20:11.040)

But to me, like, why is it about this arbitrary world cup thing or championship thing?

Lex Fridman (3:20:15.720)

I think it's easier for people to wrap their head around, right?

Ryan Hall (3:20:17.440)

It's like the NFL combine.

Lex Fridman (3:20:18.440)

When was, I mean, yeah, numbers.

Ryan Hall (3:20:20.960)

It's something that, well, again, if I go and if I pick Tom Brady in the first round,

Lex Fridman (3:20:24.760)

you know, and it works out, they call me a genius.

Ryan Hall (3:20:27.560)

If I had to pick Tom Brady in the first round after his combine and it doesn't work out,

Lex Fridman (3:20:31.600)

I get fired and I'm never hired again, I have to work, work somewhere else.

Lex Fridman (3:20:34.760)

But it's like, I'm insulating myself from criticism.

Lex Fridman (3:20:37.520)

I think almost if I go by the numbers, well, he had more bench presses.

Ryan Hall (3:20:40.680)

It's like, how, how many times have the guys that are like the super studs in the, uh,

Ryan Hall (3:20:45.640)

in the NFL combine ever been on the greatest players in the NFL history, in NFL history,

Ryan Hall (3:20:49.960)

like zero or close to zero.

Lex Fridman (3:20:52.160)

And even if, even if there's some, it's certainly not a one to one correlation.

Lex Fridman (3:20:56.020)

So it's so funny though.

Lex Fridman (3:20:57.020)

I think it's just like, how many, how long, how many days did he hold the title?

Ryan Hall (3:20:59.920)

Oh, your title reign was X times longer.

Lex Fridman (3:21:02.640)

That means nothing.

Lex Fridman (3:21:03.640)

So if we wanted to find greatest fighter ever, like you said, I think individual moments

Lex Fridman (3:21:06.620)

of like, like that was transcended, that was different.

Ryan Hall (3:21:09.300)

That was something else because people can win or lose for any number of different reasons.

Lex Fridman (3:21:12.880)

And that it's an interesting thing.

Ryan Hall (3:21:14.720)

Again, I don't blame Argentina, not winning the world cup on messy, you know, that's not

Lex Fridman (3:21:19.640)

fair.

Ryan Hall (3:21:20.640)

You know, how many times has, you know, I mean, I use the, I remember when a Trent

Ryan Hall (3:21:24.720)

Ilfer was the quarterback for the, uh, the Baltimore Ravens and they had such a strong

Ryan Hall (3:21:28.960)

defense.

Ryan Hall (3:21:29.960)

I'm not trying to pick on Trent Ilfer, but it's like they, they had such a strong defense

Ryan Hall (3:21:32.520)

that they were to make it.

Ryan Hall (3:21:33.720)

That was the Ray Lewis, you know, Chris McAllister era, you know, and they, they won, they won

Ryan Hall (3:21:38.960)

the super bowl.

Ryan Hall (3:21:39.960)

I don't think anyone is going to say that, you know, Trent Dilfer is a better quarterback

Ryan Hall (3:21:44.680)

than, you know, or put him in the same category as Dan Marino, but he got the W he's got the,

Lex Fridman (3:21:51.000)

he's got the super ring.

Lex Fridman (3:21:52.000)

How many times, let's use March Madness or super, I love it.

Lex Fridman (3:21:54.320)

Like that, that guy always makes the finals, but he just never gets it done.

Lex Fridman (3:21:57.320)

So let me get this straight, getting to the finals nine times doesn't count because you

Lex Fridman (3:22:00.920)

didn't win the end game.

Ryan Hall (3:22:02.400)

I'm not saying it wouldn't be better, but that guy won the game once he got over the

Lex Fridman (3:22:05.560)

hump.

Lex Fridman (3:22:06.560)

Well, how many other times was he in the finals?

Lex Fridman (3:22:07.560)

Zero.

Ryan Hall (3:22:08.560)

All right.

Lex Fridman (3:22:09.560)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (3:22:10.560)

It's interesting what we, yeah.

Ryan Hall (3:22:11.560)

We were obsessed with these numbers, like, um, well, cause we can't assess their method,

Lex Fridman (3:22:16.240)

right?

Lex Fridman (3:22:17.240)

Well, I think most of the time, most of us can't assess the method of anything.

Ryan Hall (3:22:19.680)

I'm it's like, Oh, look at that guy do X Y swimming.

Lex Fridman (3:22:21.800)

I'm like, how do I know Michael Phelps is great.

Ryan Hall (3:22:23.680)

I don't know.

Lex Fridman (3:22:24.680)

It was faster.

Ryan Hall (3:22:25.680)

I can't look at his technique and say anything other than, well, that's way better than anything

Lex Fridman (3:22:28.880)

I know how to do, but I can't say the difference between him and the next guy.

Lex Fridman (3:22:32.860)

So I guess that's, I wonder if it's like, I need a concrete identifier and a lot of

Lex Fridman (3:22:36.600)

times people don't like saying, I don't know.

Lex Fridman (3:22:38.360)

And most people won't put like a Ronda Rousey in the top, even 20 or 50 of, but like she

Lex Fridman (3:22:43.640)

changed more than, more than almost anybody else.

Ryan Hall (3:22:47.760)

She changed the martial arts history.

Ryan Hall (3:22:52.080)

I don't know if that even, I don't think I'm exaggerating that she, she made it okay for

Ryan Hall (3:22:59.760)

women to be fighters and that, and that changed the way we see like, she's one of the great

Lex Fridman (3:23:06.640)

feminists of our time in a weird kind of way that like, I don't know.

Ryan Hall (3:23:13.880)

Maybe I'm just a Ronda Rousey fan, but the, yeah, the, but she's not in the conversation

Lex Fridman (3:23:18.920)

because then you start converting into numbers.

Lex Fridman (3:23:20.640)

Well, how many did she win?

Lex Fridman (3:23:22.120)

Is she among the greatest fighters or did she do the greatest things?

Lex Fridman (3:23:25.160)

You know what I mean?

Ryan Hall (3:23:26.160)

I don't, I think it's something, I mean, obviously Ronda is a great Sudoku who was competing

Ryan Hall (3:23:30.160)

in MMA at a time when a lot of the girls like, where did you get your skills in the Olympics

Lex Fridman (3:23:34.160)

or where'd you get yours?

Ryan Hall (3:23:35.160)

High school.

Lex Fridman (3:23:36.160)

I mean, they're going to, the Olympic girls going to beat you up.

Lex Fridman (3:23:38.320)

But I guess that, that doesn't diminish her, just that accomplishment is what it is.

Ryan Hall (3:23:43.000)

I don't have to, I don't, Fedor is not diminished by the fact that he would like, if he were

Ryan Hall (3:23:48.360)

to fight Stephen Mayochis right now, it probably wouldn't go great or that John Jones exists.

Ryan Hall (3:23:52.600)

I don't now have to like knock Fedor's accomplishments down or say, oh, because BJ Penn or so and

Lex Fridman (3:23:57.120)

so let's say has a mixed record at this point that somehow invalidates the things that they've

Lex Fridman (3:24:01.480)

done before.

Ryan Hall (3:24:02.480)

I guess it kind of brings us back to a lot of the other people we've talked about, the

Ryan Hall (3:24:05.680)

fact that the brilliant people throughout history that we love or some of the monsters

Ryan Hall (3:24:09.040)

throughout history that we rightly revile in a lot of cases were complicated people

Lex Fridman (3:24:13.560)

and their legacy is more than just one thing.

Lex Fridman (3:24:15.540)

And someone doing something amazing doesn't invalid, doesn't mean they didn't do anything

Lex Fridman (3:24:18.920)

bad.

Lex Fridman (3:24:19.920)

And someone doing terrible things doesn't, doesn't mean that, doesn't invalidate the,

Lex Fridman (3:24:23.360)

the positives that they did.

Lex Fridman (3:24:24.600)

But I guess we fighting the urge to put people in one category and same with ourselves.

Lex Fridman (3:24:29.440)

I think that's why people get depressed.

Ryan Hall (3:24:30.840)

Oh, I'm good right now.

Lex Fridman (3:24:32.440)

Oh, I'm bad right now.

Ryan Hall (3:24:33.960)

Versus hey, we're all at work in progress and we're trying to do X number of things

Lex Fridman (3:24:37.200)

and legacy is a tough thing to figure out anyway.

Lex Fridman (3:24:39.680)

And it's all speculative.

Ryan Hall (3:24:42.320)

Last time or no on Reddit, you said that last time too, that you don't experience much fear

Ryan Hall (3:24:49.520)

before fights.

Lex Fridman (3:24:50.520)

I'd like to ask you a couple of Mike Tyson things, if it's okay.

Ryan Hall (3:24:53.480)

It's just interesting to me.

Lex Fridman (3:24:54.480)

Maybe I'm just weird.

Lex Fridman (3:24:55.480)

So there's a, I don't know if you've seen this clip of Tyson talking about how he feels

Ryan Hall (3:25:01.540)

leading up to a fight that he's kind of overtaken with fear, but as he gets closer and closer

Lex Fridman (3:25:08.600)

and closer to the ring, his confidence grows.

Lex Fridman (3:25:12.280)

Have you seen the clip?

Ryan Hall (3:25:14.840)

I'm aware of it.

Lex Fridman (3:25:15.840)

Okay.

Ryan Hall (3:25:16.840)

I haven't seen it in a while.

Lex Fridman (3:25:17.840)

Here, let me play it for you.

Ryan Hall (3:25:18.840)

I think George St. Pierre said something similar to me one time.

Ryan Hall (3:25:21.840)

While I'm in the dressing room, five minutes before I come out, my gloves are laced up.

Ryan Hall (3:25:27.920)

I'm breaking my gloves down.

Ryan Hall (3:25:28.920)

I'm pushing the lever on the back of my leg, breaking the middle of the glove so my knuckle

Ryan Hall (3:25:33.080)

pierced through the lever.

Ryan Hall (3:25:34.080)

I feel my knuckle piercing against the tight leather gloves on the Everlast box.

Ryan Hall (3:25:38.360)

When I come out, I have supreme confidence, but I'm scared to death.

Lex Fridman (3:25:42.280)

I'm totally afraid.

Ryan Hall (3:25:43.280)

I'm afraid of everything.

Lex Fridman (3:25:44.280)

I'm afraid of losing.

Ryan Hall (3:25:45.280)

I'm afraid of being humiliated, but I'm just totally confident.

Lex Fridman (3:25:48.560)

The closer I get to the ring, the more confidence I get.

Ryan Hall (3:25:50.840)

The closer, the more confidence I get.

Lex Fridman (3:25:52.760)

The closer, the more confidence I get.

Ryan Hall (3:25:54.960)

All during my training, I've been afraid of this man.

Lex Fridman (3:25:57.080)

I thought this man might be capable of beating me.

Ryan Hall (3:25:59.360)

I've dreamed of him beating me, but I always stayed afraid of him.

Lex Fridman (3:26:03.720)

But the closer I get to the ring, I'm more confident.

Ryan Hall (3:26:06.360)

Once I'm in the ring, I'm a god.

Lex Fridman (3:26:08.280)

No one can beat me.

Ryan Hall (3:26:09.280)

I'm a god.

Ryan Hall (3:26:10.280)

I mean, first of all, he's cognizant of both his demons and whatever the hell ideas he

Ryan Hall (3:26:16.640)

has about violence.

Lex Fridman (3:26:17.640)

It's so interesting.

Ryan Hall (3:26:18.640)

Is there something about the tension that he's describing about being confident and

Lex Fridman (3:26:25.080)

scared that resonates with you?

Ryan Hall (3:26:27.040)

Or do you hold to this idea that you've kind of spoken about before that you're really

Lex Fridman (3:26:32.120)

not afraid?

Ryan Hall (3:26:33.120)

No, I can appreciate what he's saying.

Ryan Hall (3:26:36.440)

I think that I can speak to feeling concerned about, let's say, for instance, if you feel

Ryan Hall (3:26:42.240)

a certain way, I think people are a lot more like computers than we like to admit.

Lex Fridman (3:26:48.480)

And just because a lot of times I can't parse what's going on and why doesn't mean that

Ryan Hall (3:26:52.720)

it doesn't make sense.

Lex Fridman (3:26:55.720)

And I think that, at least in the times, if I'm concerned about a situation or about a

Ryan Hall (3:26:59.960)

person or about something happening prior to the fight, I'm like, there's a reason.

Lex Fridman (3:27:05.200)

There was a reason.

Ryan Hall (3:27:06.200)

I don't have to push that down and bury it.

Lex Fridman (3:27:07.760)

There's a reason.

Lex Fridman (3:27:08.760)

Why?

Lex Fridman (3:27:09.760)

What have I not thought about?

Lex Fridman (3:27:10.760)

What have I not done?

Lex Fridman (3:27:11.760)

What am I missing?

Lex Fridman (3:27:12.760)

Why am I feeling this way?

Lex Fridman (3:27:13.760)

As you mentioned, for yourself prior, you'd be like, why am I feeling like this?

Ryan Hall (3:27:17.240)

I don't do this very well in certain aspects of my life now that I mention it or now that

Lex Fridman (3:27:20.680)

I think about it.

Lex Fridman (3:27:21.680)

But when it comes to competing, I think I do an all right job and I'm trying to learn

Lex Fridman (3:27:24.920)

to be better.

Lex Fridman (3:27:25.920)

And it's going like, well, why do I, if I feel this way, there's a reason.

Lex Fridman (3:27:29.920)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (3:27:30.920)

Am I thinking about this the wrong way?

Lex Fridman (3:27:31.920)

Have I not adequately prepared for something?

Ryan Hall (3:27:33.640)

I have to address it and then maybe I'll be up for four hours that night, like extra hours

Ryan Hall (3:27:38.680)

thinking what have I not addressed, watching sparring, watching this, watching that.

Lex Fridman (3:27:42.640)

And then when I am thinking about things more accurately or when I've addressed what that

Lex Fridman (3:27:49.520)

concern was, I feel any of that concern kind of dissipate.

Lex Fridman (3:27:53.960)

And I guess if I honestly thought that, I guess when it comes to, I know I'm going to

Lex Fridman (3:27:59.240)

die at a certain point, obviously, I'm going to get hurt, pain happens.

Lex Fridman (3:28:03.660)

But the pain of loss would be nothing compared to the, or the pain of injury would be nothing

Lex Fridman (3:28:08.160)

compared to the pain of running away.

Lex Fridman (3:28:12.440)

And so I guess if I think about where's my value, it's like I feel like I'm a winner

Lex Fridman (3:28:18.320)

and every single time I step into that ring and fight with everything that I have, I can't

Ryan Hall (3:28:21.960)

promise that I'll win my next fight.

Ryan Hall (3:28:23.680)

I know that I have the skills and the tools to beat anyone in grappling or in mixed martial

Ryan Hall (3:28:28.160)

arts at this point.

Ryan Hall (3:28:29.160)

It's just, I know that for certain, I've trained with enough people, I've competed with enough

Ryan Hall (3:28:33.920)

people, I know where I stand.

Lex Fridman (3:28:36.040)

But I also know that I'm not perfect and also the better fighter, even if I perceived that

Ryan Hall (3:28:39.840)

I was that thing, doesn't win on the night.

Lex Fridman (3:28:43.720)

The man who fights better wins on the night.

Lex Fridman (3:28:47.000)

And if I give credence in my mind to only the person that's won has value versus going,

Lex Fridman (3:28:53.360)

what's your process?

Lex Fridman (3:28:54.440)

What's your path through this?

Lex Fridman (3:28:56.080)

How are you going about this?

Lex Fridman (3:28:57.080)

How are you thinking about this?

Lex Fridman (3:28:58.120)

How are you behaving?

Ryan Hall (3:28:59.960)

Then if I can focus on the process, then I will respect my opponent and I will respect

Ryan Hall (3:29:05.480)

myself and I'll respect anyone that behaves with a certain level of consistency to that.

Lex Fridman (3:29:12.520)

And they could win, there's plenty of winners in history that are shitbags and there's plenty

Lex Fridman (3:29:16.540)

of losers that are not.

Lex Fridman (3:29:18.440)

But winning doesn't make you a bad or good person and losing doesn't make you good by

Lex Fridman (3:29:22.240)

default either or bad by default.

Lex Fridman (3:29:25.000)

And I think that that can be the truth socially, that can be the truth athletically and academically.

Lex Fridman (3:29:30.040)

So I guess...

Lex Fridman (3:29:31.040)

Is there a primal fear though, like a primal fear of getting hurt?

Ryan Hall (3:29:37.840)

The running away and not facing the threat long term is the bigger pain than any pain

Ryan Hall (3:29:47.080)

you can experience in the fight.

Lex Fridman (3:29:50.160)

That's pretty powerful.

Lex Fridman (3:29:51.160)

But what about the violence of, I mean, you don't have that on your face, but like, I

Ryan Hall (3:29:55.440)

don't know if you've also seen Tyson talk about, he was on Rogan recently and he was

Ryan Hall (3:29:59.320)

talking about, he was trying to psychoanalyze himself about why he enjoys violence so much.

Lex Fridman (3:30:08.800)

I mean, he called it orgasmic.

Lex Fridman (3:30:10.680)

I don't know if, have you seen that clip?

Lex Fridman (3:30:13.680)

I haven't.

Ryan Hall (3:30:14.680)

Okay.

Ryan Hall (3:30:15.680)

We're playing it because I can, I need to, because Trump also retweeted it, which is

Ryan Hall (3:30:19.840)

hilarious.

Ryan Hall (3:30:20.840)

I don't know how to contextualize that our president retweeted the clip of Tyson saying...

Ryan Hall (3:30:28.880)

Maybe he's just doing like, they're not, it's like, I'm going to throw him a curve ball.

Lex Fridman (3:30:32.400)

No one's going to have any idea what that is.

Lex Fridman (3:30:33.800)

But yeah, he did no explanation, just, here you go.

Lex Fridman (3:30:36.360)

There you go.

Ryan Hall (3:30:37.360)

Well, I think that's kind of like what you were describing.

Lex Fridman (3:30:39.560)

It's like, if I give you an answer, it has to be a good one.

Ryan Hall (3:30:41.800)

Better to just let your imagination run.

Lex Fridman (3:30:43.720)

Exactly.

Ryan Hall (3:30:44.720)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:30:45.720)

He's like the Kubrick of our time.

Ryan Hall (3:30:48.720)

Now what's really interesting that sometimes, period, it's not real, but sometimes I struggle

Lex Fridman (3:30:58.160)

with the fact of why there's a possibility I can really hurt somebody.

Ryan Hall (3:31:02.120)

Like you don't want to hurt them.

Lex Fridman (3:31:06.400)

What do you mean when you struggle with the possibility that you could hurt them?

Ryan Hall (3:31:10.720)

That is sometimes, it's orgasmic sometimes.

Lex Fridman (3:31:15.480)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (3:31:17.120)

Like some fights, like particular, like Tyrell Biggs or someone that you had problems with,

Lex Fridman (3:31:23.280)

someone that you, you had animosity towards.

Lex Fridman (3:31:26.920)

So when you finally get your hands on them.

Lex Fridman (3:31:29.680)

Hey, what does it mean when fighting gets you, gets you erect?

Lex Fridman (3:31:36.360)

What does that mean?

Lex Fridman (3:31:37.360)

It's a good question.

Ryan Hall (3:31:40.040)

Means you're getting excited.

Lex Fridman (3:31:41.680)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:31:42.880)

So that, that's going through your mind right now.

Ryan Hall (3:31:45.360)

Well, that's how I get when I was a kid and I, you know, sometimes I get the twinkle.

Ryan Hall (3:31:50.300)

The twinkle.

Lex Fridman (3:31:51.300)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (3:31:52.300)

Well, that's what I'm saying.

Ryan Hall (3:31:53.300)

When you reached a state as a human being, as a champion, as a ferocious fighter, you

Ryan Hall (3:31:58.480)

reached a state of, of ability and of accomplishment that very few humans will ever, ever touch

Lex Fridman (3:32:04.880)

and feel.

Ryan Hall (3:32:06.380)

That's why I'm asking you when you're running, when you're hitting the bag, when that heart's

Lex Fridman (3:32:10.360)

beating again and that you know who you are, you're Mike motherfucking Tyson.

Lex Fridman (3:32:15.080)

So when you're doing all this shit again, you're still Mike Tyson.

Lex Fridman (3:32:17.840)

Those thoughts have got to be burning inside you again.

Ryan Hall (3:32:20.840)

It's got to be pretty wild.

Lex Fridman (3:32:23.480)

I don't know.

Ryan Hall (3:32:26.360)

It's wild, but I believe it's rightfully so to be that way.

Lex Fridman (3:32:31.600)

And I used to know how to, I don't say I'm master, but I used to know how to deal with

Ryan Hall (3:32:36.240)

it.

Lex Fridman (3:32:37.240)

I don't let it overwhelm me.

Ryan Hall (3:32:38.240)

I mean, he goes on to try to, they don't ever, like Joe doesn't bite.

Ryan Hall (3:32:45.320)

The interesting thing about that conversation is Mike was trying to figure himself out.

Lex Fridman (3:32:51.720)

Like he's trying on the spot, like, why do I feel this way?

Ryan Hall (3:32:59.720)

To me it was like, to me it's so real and honest to feel like pleasure from hurting

Ryan Hall (3:33:08.560)

somebody.

Lex Fridman (3:33:10.220)

Like that you rarely hear that.

Ryan Hall (3:33:13.720)

In this society, it's like, you rarely like talk about like you feel pleasure from winning.

Ryan Hall (3:33:22.720)

You feel pleasure from like the relief of overcoming like all the stress you had to

Ryan Hall (3:33:29.320)

go through.

Ryan Hall (3:33:31.120)

Pleasure from just like the specifics of the fight, the techniques you use, the maybe

Ryan Hall (3:33:37.280)

overcoming being down a couple of rounds, but like how often do you hear somebody say,

Lex Fridman (3:33:42.400)

I just enjoyed, he's not even saying because I hate the opponent.

Ryan Hall (3:33:46.760)

He's saying like, I enjoyed purely the violence of it.

Lex Fridman (3:33:51.440)

That's crazy.

Ryan Hall (3:33:52.800)

I mean, I don't know, it's honest.

Lex Fridman (3:33:56.160)

It made me ask, like, I wonder how many of us are cognizant of that.

Ryan Hall (3:34:00.120)

Let's say Mike is uncommonly seemingly honest.

Ryan Hall (3:34:05.560)

I think athletes make a full time job out of lying, you know, I think people make a

Ryan Hall (3:34:09.840)

full time job.

Lex Fridman (3:34:10.840)

To themselves perhaps too.

Ryan Hall (3:34:11.840)

I mean, in some, you tell yourself or you tell others what you feel you need to, or

Ryan Hall (3:34:16.280)

maybe whether you've, whether you even know what you feel you need to, but why should

Ryan Hall (3:34:20.320)

he not, I mean, again, did he, did he run up and just hit somebody that's didn't sign

Lex Fridman (3:34:25.600)

up for this?

Ryan Hall (3:34:26.600)

No, they, they signed up to be there.

Ryan Hall (3:34:28.720)

Well, that's the interesting thing about Dyson is there's that weird, uh, like nonstandard

Ryan Hall (3:34:35.640)

behavior.

Lex Fridman (3:34:36.640)

I mean, like your fighting style is not standard.

Ryan Hall (3:34:40.560)

He's nonstandard to another degree of like, uh, who else has that in Jiu Jitsu, uh, uh,

Lex Fridman (3:34:47.200)

Polaris, uh, uh, has this kind of weirdness, like what's, what's in there?

Ryan Hall (3:34:55.000)

Like there's a fear that I think, uh, most opponents would have because it's like, it's

Lex Fridman (3:35:01.200)

no longer about like, it takes you out of the realm of its game.

Ryan Hall (3:35:06.440)

It takes us back to the thing we were talking about, like before is it strips away that

Ryan Hall (3:35:11.360)

like several layers of Ryan Hall, the, the podcast, uh, guest, Ryan Hall, the Jiu Jitsu

Ryan Hall (3:35:17.680)

instructor, Ryan Hall, Jiu Jitsu competitor, it keeps going down to a point where like

Ryan Hall (3:35:22.040)

Ryan Hall, the murderer of all things that get in his way that lies underneath all of

Ryan Hall (3:35:27.920)

it.

Ryan Hall (3:35:28.920)

Seemingly like if we're like in this society, we put all that aside, but it makes you wonder

Ryan Hall (3:35:33.280)

like now as society is being tested in many ways, it makes you wonder like what's underneath

Lex Fridman (3:35:38.880)

there.

Lex Fridman (3:35:39.880)

Well, do we want, do we want the answer to that?

Lex Fridman (3:35:41.760)

Cause I guess it's, what is it?

Ryan Hall (3:35:42.760)

Uh, you seem Paul Fiction, you know, the best character in the movie and in the best scene

Lex Fridman (3:35:46.600)

in the movie is like, if my questions here, if you're, what do you call it?

Lex Fridman (3:35:49.520)

If my answer is scary, you should cease asking scary questions, you know?

Lex Fridman (3:35:53.000)

And I guess, uh, you wonder, I mean, all of us, that's something that I think it's funny

Ryan Hall (3:35:57.040)

we go, that's not okay, I mean, versus maybe not appropriate for situation X, Y, or Z.

Lex Fridman (3:36:03.480)

But uh, what should make any of us think, I mean, humanity is a different place now.

Lex Fridman (3:36:07.640)

And I mean, I'm not saying anything crazy out there, but humanity is a different place

Ryan Hall (3:36:10.460)

now than we were 5,000 years ago where all of us are descended from people who have killed

Ryan Hall (3:36:15.920)

things with their teeth and fingernails in order to be where we are.

Lex Fridman (3:36:20.720)

And whether it was in, whether it was an animal or it was in conflict with another person,

Ryan Hall (3:36:24.320)

I mean, think about the, the chances of dying by violence now are so, so slim, at least

Lex Fridman (3:36:28.960)

in most countries in most plays, like shockingly small, thankfully.

Lex Fridman (3:36:32.840)

But there was a period of time, like the most period of time where dying by violence was

Lex Fridman (3:36:36.920)

mostly how it went down.

Lex Fridman (3:36:39.120)

And I guess what would be facilitative, what would allow you to win back to Ender's game?

Ryan Hall (3:36:44.520)

You know, what allows you, if you can't do that, you are all, you are forever subject

Ryan Hall (3:36:49.800)

to people who can, and that's, that's a real thing.

Lex Fridman (3:36:54.600)

And you know, we're fortunate to find ourselves in a situation where we don't, where other

Ryan Hall (3:36:58.200)

things matter.

Lex Fridman (3:36:59.400)

But that is a funny thing periodically where people, you'll see people kind of drawn at

Ryan Hall (3:37:02.840)

each other, like in videos or out in the world that clearly neither of them expect this to

Lex Fridman (3:37:06.920)

get serious.

Ryan Hall (3:37:07.920)

Like, I'm just going to yell at you.

Lex Fridman (3:37:08.920)

You're going to yell at me.

Lex Fridman (3:37:09.920)

And it's like this weird LARPing thing where we're both going to go on our own separate

Lex Fridman (3:37:11.840)

way.

Ryan Hall (3:37:12.840)

All it takes is one person to be like, well, I wasn't kidding.

Lex Fridman (3:37:15.800)

And it's like, well, you'll go to jail.

Lex Fridman (3:37:16.800)

And it's like, oh, I know you're going to go to the morgue.

Lex Fridman (3:37:20.040)

And it's, that's, but that can happen like that.

Ryan Hall (3:37:22.560)

Like society.

Lex Fridman (3:37:23.560)

I mean, obviously, anyway, you could jump across the table, stab me in the eye.

Ryan Hall (3:37:26.280)

I mean, I appreciate, I'd hope if you don't, and there will be consequences if you do,

Lex Fridman (3:37:29.520)

but not from, not from me, from, from the rest of society will potentially get you at

Ryan Hall (3:37:34.080)

a certain point, but you can decide to not play by the rules anytime you want.

Ryan Hall (3:37:38.880)

It's fascinating that, yeah, that's, we've created rules based on which we all behave,

Lex Fridman (3:37:43.320)

but underneath there, you know, there, there's things that doesn't, there's motivations and

Ryan Hall (3:37:49.400)

forces that don't play by the rules and still there nature is metal is under the surface.

Ryan Hall (3:37:54.800)

Seriously.

Lex Fridman (3:37:55.800)

And again, I pull out my phone and I'm basically saying like, Hey, I'm going to, you're going

Ryan Hall (3:37:59.200)

to get caught.

Lex Fridman (3:38:00.200)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (3:38:01.200)

But really I'm further antagonizing you rightly or wrongly.

Lex Fridman (3:38:03.360)

You know what I mean?

Ryan Hall (3:38:04.360)

Like, and that, that's an interesting thing.

Lex Fridman (3:38:05.920)

And I feel like just people need to remember any of us need to remember just for any reason,

Ryan Hall (3:38:10.920)

just that's, that's one step away at all, at all times you ever, I've had people say

Lex Fridman (3:38:15.560)

to me before, like, Oh, I don't feel safe.

Ryan Hall (3:38:17.360)

I'm like, you're not safe.

Lex Fridman (3:38:18.360)

I kill you before you get out of this room.

Ryan Hall (3:38:20.440)

Nothing you do to stop that.

Lex Fridman (3:38:21.440)

Nothing.

Ryan Hall (3:38:22.440)

I mean, but don't worry.

Lex Fridman (3:38:23.440)

You can do the same to me, which means I'm like, Oh, Oh, thank goodness.

Lex Fridman (3:38:26.240)

Can you imagine like how many guns are there are in this country?

Ryan Hall (3:38:29.560)

Like I mean, everywhere, I mean, seriously everywhere, but that's a heartening thought.

Ryan Hall (3:38:33.560)

Not the other way.

Ryan Hall (3:38:34.560)

Cause people usually freak out and go, Oh my God, gun violence, gun violence, gun violence

Ryan Hall (3:38:37.200)

is like really not a serious issue in the United States compared to what it could be.

Ryan Hall (3:38:41.920)

Because it means that, I mean, with the amount of guns and the amount of bullets that are

Ryan Hall (3:38:45.920)

out there that are in circulation, can you imagine if like one in every thousand was

Lex Fridman (3:38:50.920)

used in anger each day?

Ryan Hall (3:38:52.240)

I mean, this would be a terrifying place to live.

Lex Fridman (3:38:54.880)

You couldn't go anywhere.

Ryan Hall (3:38:55.880)

So, I mean, although you could say, Hey, this is more than we'd like or X, Y, Z, it actually

Ryan Hall (3:38:59.700)

means that people are much more reasonable and sane than we're saying then, or then I,

Ryan Hall (3:39:04.240)

then sometimes I might, my might argue.

Lex Fridman (3:39:06.320)

So I guess what I mean is like, Oh man, I walked a seven 11 and I didn't get stabbed.

Ryan Hall (3:39:09.920)

I'm like, Oh, well that's good because not because I protected myself with my karate.

Ryan Hall (3:39:13.960)

It's basically no one decided to run over and stab me because I wasn't protecting myself.

Ryan Hall (3:39:18.200)

It's I, they, they stopped.

Lex Fridman (3:39:19.760)

So I guess we're all fortunate to live in a society that, that like you said, nature

Ryan Hall (3:39:23.760)

being metal doesn't become that big of an issue all the time.

Lex Fridman (3:39:26.280)

But it is funny when you get people in the ring and you go, Hey, let's peel back from

Ryan Hall (3:39:29.620)

Mr. Tyson, many layers of that and say, Hey, now it's okay.

Lex Fridman (3:39:34.080)

And it's cool that, I mean, that's what society is doing.

Lex Fridman (3:39:37.480)

So I've lived in Harvard square for awhile and we add extra layers of what safe means.

Ryan Hall (3:39:44.480)

Like now there's a disc discourse about safe spaces, about like ideas being violence or,

Ryan Hall (3:39:51.280)

or like, uh, you know, like, yeah, but ideas are minor slights against your personality

Lex Fridman (3:39:58.220)

being violence.

Lex Fridman (3:39:59.600)

And that's all like extra layers around the nature is metal thing that, uh, it's cool.

Lex Fridman (3:40:05.840)

That's what progress is.

Lex Fridman (3:40:06.840)

But we can't forget that like underneath it is still, it's still the, the thing that will

Lex Fridman (3:40:13.080)

murder at the, at the drop of, uh, in any, at any moment.

Ryan Hall (3:40:17.560)

If uh, if aroused one, one thing that I find funny though, or ironic maybe about the, uh,

Ryan Hall (3:40:23.160)

the, you know, words of violence, you know, offenses, violence thing is that of course

Ryan Hall (3:40:27.480)

that if that, the belief in that then justifies my violence, like my, and whether it may be

Ryan Hall (3:40:33.680)

in my, maybe not physical violence, but my response to my, my aggressive response to

Ryan Hall (3:40:38.160)

things.

Lex Fridman (3:40:39.160)

And I guess like, which it can be regrets of begets a further aggressive response and

Ryan Hall (3:40:42.840)

like a, you know, kind of a tit for tat sort of situation or, or it goes to like, well,

Ryan Hall (3:40:47.920)

there's 10 of me and there's one of you, so we'll get you and you can't do anything about

Ryan Hall (3:40:50.960)

it.

Lex Fridman (3:40:51.960)

But that's not morality.

Ryan Hall (3:40:52.960)

That's, that's just saying that's might makes right.

Lex Fridman (3:40:55.360)

So I guess again, you can understand why people do it and there are certain, there is a progress

Ryan Hall (3:40:58.860)

aspect to it.

Lex Fridman (3:41:00.320)

But again, I guess without proper examination, I'm effectively with my 10 friends, you know,

Ryan Hall (3:41:06.120)

and, and the force of the law, Mike Tyson and people, but not admitting to myself what

Lex Fridman (3:41:10.320)

I'm doing.

Lex Fridman (3:41:11.320)

And at least Mike Tyson again is honest.

Lex Fridman (3:41:13.920)

Are you, uh, afraid of death?

Ryan Hall (3:41:16.320)

I mean, it's easy for me to say no, as I sit here, probably not about to die, but.

Lex Fridman (3:41:21.280)

Is this like the UFC question, can you defeat any opponent?

Ryan Hall (3:41:24.200)

The answer is of course, yes.

Lex Fridman (3:41:26.840)

And uh, I don't have, they're not around, they're not here, are they?

Ryan Hall (3:41:29.680)

Yeah, exactly.

Lex Fridman (3:41:30.680)

But, uh, I mean, are you, uh, do you ponder your own mortality?

Ryan Hall (3:41:33.700)

Maybe another context to that is you mentioned two deaths for martial artists.

Ryan Hall (3:41:39.040)

I think that's actually why, honestly, even though at a relatively young age, I think

Ryan Hall (3:41:42.800)

mortality is something that I'm aware of more, maybe more than the average person.

Ryan Hall (3:41:46.360)

I think probably most athletes can speak to this and anyone that's had trouble, I've managed

Ryan Hall (3:41:50.640)

to just slide out of a couple of near death experiences personally, you know, mostly river

Ryan Hall (3:41:55.440)

related, um, because I'm an idiot, but, um, I regret nothing, but, uh, yeah, but, uh,

Ryan Hall (3:42:01.480)

thank God we're here.

Ryan Hall (3:42:02.480)

But, um, yeah, it is an interest seeing, seeing the end and seeing going, well, what's going

Ryan Hall (3:42:10.160)

to happen.

Ryan Hall (3:42:11.160)

I guess I think it comes back to kind of what we're discussing about belief structure and

Ryan Hall (3:42:14.840)

belief system.

Ryan Hall (3:42:15.980)

I think a lot of times, if I recognize that no matter what I do, it's all going to end

Lex Fridman (3:42:21.120)

one day and then you go, well, why were we here?

Lex Fridman (3:42:23.760)

What would I do?

Lex Fridman (3:42:24.760)

Am I going to make it to 40?

Lex Fridman (3:42:26.280)

I have no idea.

Ryan Hall (3:42:27.280)

I'd like to hope so that I had no idea that I was going to make it to the age that I am

Lex Fridman (3:42:31.240)

now.

Lex Fridman (3:42:32.240)

Um, am I going to make it to 80?

Lex Fridman (3:42:33.720)

How much of that is in my control?

Ryan Hall (3:42:36.740)

Much of it is not.

Lex Fridman (3:42:37.740)

I mean, it's so funny.

Ryan Hall (3:42:38.820)

It's an interesting, like back to the belief structure again, like locus of internal and

Lex Fridman (3:42:42.140)

external locus of control.

Ryan Hall (3:42:44.000)

You know, what's facilitative versus what's true.

Lex Fridman (3:42:47.600)

And you know, I think accepting personal responsibility for more than is on my control is, is probably

Ryan Hall (3:42:51.760)

a positive, but at the same time, recognizing that much of much is not in my control.

Ryan Hall (3:42:57.800)

I was fortunate enough to be born in the United States, fortunate enough to, you know, to

Ryan Hall (3:43:02.440)

not knock on wood, have, have a serious disease that I'm not aware of right now.

Lex Fridman (3:43:06.560)

Um, I didn't do any of that.

Ryan Hall (3:43:08.280)

I just showed up.

Lex Fridman (3:43:09.880)

That was really fortunate.

Lex Fridman (3:43:11.400)

And I guess that doesn't diminish the fact that I've tried to make decent choices, but

Lex Fridman (3:43:17.120)

it works in concert with it.

Lex Fridman (3:43:18.560)

And I, I guess, um, when I, when you go, is death what I want right now?

Lex Fridman (3:43:24.280)

No, no, I should think not.

Lex Fridman (3:43:26.400)

And again, it's easier for me to be relatively calm about as I'm not staring it in the face,

Lex Fridman (3:43:30.520)

but what I would care a lot more about is, is how you live.

Ryan Hall (3:43:35.800)

That's what's in my control.

Lex Fridman (3:43:37.320)

And I can't control if, as I walk out of this building, a helicopter falls on me worrying

Ryan Hall (3:43:41.760)

about that.

Lex Fridman (3:43:42.760)

I can't control it.

Ryan Hall (3:43:43.760)

Maybe I, maybe I have cancer now and I don't know it and I really hope not.

Lex Fridman (3:43:46.600)

But um,

Ryan Hall (3:43:47.600)

there's something about meditating on the fact that it could end today outside of your

Ryan Hall (3:43:51.680)

control that can clarify your thinking about the, the fact that life is amazing, like just

Ryan Hall (3:43:58.560)

kind of, yeah, helping you enjoy this moment.

Ryan Hall (3:44:01.680)

Even if life was horrible, let's say for instance, it was, it was, you live at one of those times

Ryan Hall (3:44:05.760)

or places and this place is still exists in this world today that life is brutal and metal

Lex Fridman (3:44:11.280)

and whatever all and short and painful.

Lex Fridman (3:44:14.640)

Would you still want it?

Lex Fridman (3:44:15.960)

And again, as I'm sitting here and not, not on fire physically, it's easy to say yes,

Lex Fridman (3:44:20.480)

but I would, I'm confident I still I'll plant my feet and say yes, any of, any life is amazing

Lex Fridman (3:44:25.680)

and beautiful and a gift and unbelievable gift, uh, that none of us have earned for

Ryan Hall (3:44:31.080)

the record.

Ryan Hall (3:44:32.080)

We're, I hate the word earned a lot of times earned yet you earn, but it's like, there's

Ryan Hall (3:44:35.040)

a lot of, a lot of good fortune and earning.

Lex Fridman (3:44:37.160)

And that's back to, do I want justice or do I want grace?

Lex Fridman (3:44:41.160)

And I guess we're all fortunate to be where we are, no matter where we are.

Lex Fridman (3:44:44.360)

And hopefully it should give us some sense of perspective, some sense of compassion for

Ryan Hall (3:44:48.360)

other people.

Lex Fridman (3:44:49.360)

But also like, like you said, a sense of peace, if it all ended right now, would I be happy

Lex Fridman (3:44:54.440)

with what I, with life to this point?

Lex Fridman (3:44:56.200)

I'm like, of course, would you like to live a little longer?

Ryan Hall (3:44:58.680)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (3:44:59.680)

I would try to do more and try to live rightly to the best that I know how, which over time

Ryan Hall (3:45:03.920)

will hopefully continue to evolve in a, in a positive direction.

Lex Fridman (3:45:07.540)

But if the answer to that is no, I guess, uh, that's, that's always, that's a sign that,

Ryan Hall (3:45:14.440)

that what I'm doing is not what I'm meant to be doing.

Lex Fridman (3:45:16.400)

And I mean, you're familiar with the Tecumseh before, uh, so there's a, I've got one actually,

Ryan Hall (3:45:21.120)

if you could give me 10 seconds, I'll, I'll read this one out.

Lex Fridman (3:45:23.720)

This is a personal favorite basically.

Lex Fridman (3:45:26.520)

And I think it sums up, I mean, again, like it's one of those quotes on the internet,

Lex Fridman (3:45:29.940)

like when Abraham Lincoln said, don't believe everything you read online.

Ryan Hall (3:45:32.600)

Um, but, uh, this is, you know, I, it's again, uh, attributed, but it's like, so live your

Ryan Hall (3:45:38.140)

life that the fear of death can never enter your heart, trouble, no one about their religion,

Ryan Hall (3:45:42.840)

respect others in their view and demand that they respect yours, love your life, perfect

Lex Fridman (3:45:46.960)

your life and beautify all things in your life.

Ryan Hall (3:45:49.800)

Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people.

Lex Fridman (3:45:53.480)

Prepare a noble death song for the day.

Ryan Hall (3:45:54.940)

When you go over the great divide, always give a word or sign of salute when meeting

Lex Fridman (3:45:58.980)

or passing a friend, even a stranger when in a lonely place.

Ryan Hall (3:46:03.080)

Show respect to all people and grovel to none.

Ryan Hall (3:46:06.200)

When you arise in the morning, give thanks for the food and for the joy of living.

Ryan Hall (3:46:10.060)

If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself.

Ryan Hall (3:46:13.940)

Abuse no one and no thing for abuse turns the wise ones to fools and robs the spirit

Ryan Hall (3:46:17.680)

of its vision.

Ryan Hall (3:46:19.280)

When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear

Ryan Hall (3:46:22.440)

of death so that when their time comes, they weep and pray for a little more time to live

Lex Fridman (3:46:26.200)

their lives over again in a different way.

Ryan Hall (3:46:28.960)

Sing your death song and die like a hero going home.

Lex Fridman (3:46:32.200)

Powerful words.

Ryan Hall (3:46:33.200)

I don't think there's a better way to end it.

Lex Fridman (3:46:35.280)

Let me just say, we've spoke maybe five, six years ago.

Ryan Hall (3:46:40.160)

I don't even remember when, but I'm not exaggerating saying like you had a huge impact on my life

Lex Fridman (3:46:46.180)

because of the podcast.

Ryan Hall (3:46:47.640)

You're the reason I was doing the podcast as long as I have.

Lex Fridman (3:46:52.200)

You're the reason I'm doing this podcast.

Ryan Hall (3:46:55.560)

It's a little, it's a stupid little meeting that you probably didn't know who I was.

Lex Fridman (3:46:59.160)

I didn't really know who you are.

Ryan Hall (3:47:00.880)

It was just like a magical moment.

Lex Fridman (3:47:02.360)

It's a flap of a butterfly wing kind of situation.

Lex Fridman (3:47:05.800)

And yeah, I'm forever grateful.

Lex Fridman (3:47:07.760)

You're one of the most inspiring people in my life.

Lex Fridman (3:47:11.120)

So Ryan, it's a huge honor that you would come here.

Lex Fridman (3:47:15.200)

Jen didn't talk with me and waste all this time.

Ryan Hall (3:47:18.520)

I really appreciate it.

Lex Fridman (3:47:19.520)

It was amazing.

Ryan Hall (3:47:20.580)

Thank you so much, Alexis.

Lex Fridman (3:47:21.580)

It's just been a pleasure.

Ryan Hall (3:47:22.580)

I really appreciate you having us on.

Lex Fridman (3:47:23.580)

Thank you.

Ryan Hall (3:47:24.580)

Thanks for listening to this conversation with Ryan Hall.

Lex Fridman (3:47:28.000)

And thank you to our sponsors, PowerDot, Babbel, and Cash App.

Ryan Hall (3:47:32.540)

Please check out these sponsors in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast.

Ryan Hall (3:47:37.200)

If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it with five stars on Apple Podcast,

Ryan Hall (3:47:42.600)

follow on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman.

Lex Fridman (3:47:48.200)

And now let me leave you with some words from Frank Herbert in Dune.

Ryan Hall (3:47:52.300)

Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense.

Lex Fridman (3:47:57.280)

But the real universe is always one step beyond logic.

Ryan Hall (3:48:01.880)

Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

Lex Fridman (40:00.300)

It's all about people.

Ryan Hall (40:01.580)

I mean, every now there's more and less believable things.

Lex Fridman (40:04.460)

And I think Dune would be an unbelievably well written,

Lex Fridman (40:06.860)

in my opinion, for to run, what do I know?

Lex Fridman (40:09.100)

But I really liked doing, I'll say that well written example

Ryan Hall (40:12.220)

of human beings interacting with one another, the political

Lex Fridman (40:15.900)

component to that, the emotional, the intellectual, the

Ryan Hall (40:18.780)

relationship components, all of that.

Lex Fridman (40:20.300)

And I think that Dune is neat because it's a sci fi, not

Ryan Hall (40:23.660)

a sci fi novel, but only in the only in the loosest sense.

Lex Fridman (40:26.620)

It's really a story about religion, about group dynamics,

Ryan Hall (40:31.260)

about human potential, about belief, learning, politics,

Lex Fridman (40:38.460)

governance, ecology.

Ryan Hall (40:40.300)

It's the best stories remind me of history the same way

Lex Fridman (40:44.460)

history hopefully is not just a list of facts that I try to be

Ryan Hall (40:48.220)

able to recall or factoids that I try to recall, but a story

Lex Fridman (40:52.860)

that I can understand and see how the threads of time kind

Ryan Hall (40:57.340)

of came together and created certain things.

Lex Fridman (40:59.340)

And a lot of times, like we say, I'm like, how the heck is

Ryan Hall (41:01.500)

what's going on right now or 100 years from now or 100 years

Lex Fridman (41:04.060)

in the past happened.

Lex Fridman (41:04.940)

And you can look back far enough.

Lex Fridman (41:06.300)

If we had accurate knowledge, if we had that hypothetical

Ryan Hall (41:09.820)

perfect pool shot at the beginning of time, we would see

Lex Fridman (41:13.100)

an unbroken chain of events that led us to where we are and

Ryan Hall (41:16.780)

where we are will potentially lead us to where we're going,

Lex Fridman (41:18.780)

which is, again, why hindsight is helpful.

Lex Fridman (41:20.140)

But I think it's neat.

Lex Fridman (41:20.860)

Like, I guess I really enjoy, for instance, a book like

Ryan Hall (41:23.660)

Dune, and they're actually making a movie out of it, which

Lex Fridman (41:25.820)

I'm skeptical of, to be honest, because it's going to be

Ryan Hall (41:28.940)

difficult to bring that to the screen for a variety of

Lex Fridman (41:31.340)

reasons, but there's at least a hundred questions.

Lex Fridman (41:33.660)

Ask Ryan, what do you think about the new Dune movie?

Lex Fridman (41:36.460)

I am not enough of an authority to have any sort of decent

Ryan Hall (41:39.020)

opinion, but I guess what I would say is so much of it

Lex Fridman (41:40.700)

goes on in the character's mind.

Ryan Hall (41:41.820)

Like how much of any of our days is any lived experience,

Lex Fridman (41:45.580)

as it were, is internal, but the majority, how many times

Ryan Hall (41:49.100)

are people walking around and, you know, they're like, hey,

Lex Fridman (41:52.060)

what do you see right now?

Ryan Hall (41:52.700)

I'm like, oh, well, I see this picture.

Lex Fridman (41:54.300)

I see a wall.

Ryan Hall (41:54.780)

Hey, there's Lex.

Lex Fridman (41:55.660)

But really what I was paying attention to was what was

Ryan Hall (41:58.620)

going on inside of my head for a moment, and almost the rest

Lex Fridman (42:00.940)

of the world tuned out and kind of dimmed.

Lex Fridman (42:03.580)

And I guess I think that's going to be a struggle to any

Lex Fridman (42:09.180)

time you want to bring that type of a written story to a

Ryan Hall (42:12.940)

visual medium.

Lex Fridman (42:13.740)

I think it's going to be more difficult, but it'll be

Ryan Hall (42:16.140)

interesting.

Lex Fridman (42:16.620)

It's definitely one of my favorite stories, and it's

Ryan Hall (42:20.620)

honestly helped me become better at life, in my opinion,

Lex Fridman (42:23.020)

better at martial arts.

Lex Fridman (42:24.220)

And I think the writer, I think Frank Herbert was absolutely

Lex Fridman (42:26.700)

brilliant, whether those were all his ideas, which are not

Ryan Hall (42:28.780)

reality.

Lex Fridman (42:29.260)

None of us or all of our good ideas aren't ours.

Ryan Hall (42:31.660)

We're a combination.

Lex Fridman (42:32.300)

Maybe it came up with something you're a curator of other

Ryan Hall (42:34.060)

good ideas and some things you borrowed from somewhere

Lex Fridman (42:36.140)

without even realizing it.

Lex Fridman (42:37.500)

But I think the way the messages and the themes and the

Lex Fridman (42:40.940)

ideas that were conveyed, particularly in the original

Ryan Hall (42:43.100)

novel, are just absolutely brilliant.

Lex Fridman (42:45.420)

Is that to you one of the greats and the flip side of

Ryan Hall (42:50.940)

that, or another way to ask that is if somebody is new to

Lex Fridman (42:54.780)

sci fi, is that something you would recommend that is an

Lex Fridman (42:57.740)

entry point?

Lex Fridman (42:58.460)

I'm not well read enough in the sci fi world.

Ryan Hall (43:00.380)

I haven't read a lot of Isaac Asimov or anything like that,

Lex Fridman (43:02.860)

but I'll recommend Dune.

Ryan Hall (43:04.940)

I'll be an obnoxious evangelist for Dune to anyone who'll

Lex Fridman (43:07.900)

listen.

Lex Fridman (43:08.700)

So yeah, I would strongly recommend it.

Lex Fridman (43:10.380)

So the other thing you mentioned, now I should

Ryan Hall (43:13.180)

probably be talking to you about much more important

Lex Fridman (43:15.340)

things, but the other thing is Skyrim.

Lex Fridman (43:19.740)

Do you play video games?

Lex Fridman (43:21.260)

What's your favorite game?

Ryan Hall (43:22.540)

What's what would you say is the greatest video game of

Lex Fridman (43:24.860)

all time?

Ryan Hall (43:25.180)

Because I'm a huge fan of Elder Scrolls.

Lex Fridman (43:26.780)

Oh, yeah.

Ryan Hall (43:27.820)

I mean, I play a little bit at this point.

Lex Fridman (43:30.620)

You know, a little less finally moves into a new house.

Lex Fridman (43:33.980)

So you're like an adult.

Lex Fridman (43:35.580)

No, no, no, no.

Ryan Hall (43:36.700)

I'm like a better funded 12 year old.

Lex Fridman (43:39.500)

Yeah, that's yeah, that's entirely that's entirely

Ryan Hall (43:43.180)

accurate.

Lex Fridman (43:43.420)

Better funded 12 year old.

Lex Fridman (43:44.940)

But somewhat better funded 12 year old.

Lex Fridman (43:47.660)

Not as well funded as I wish.

Lex Fridman (43:48.780)

But historically, did you play video games?

Lex Fridman (43:50.620)

Oh, yeah, I played as a kid.

Ryan Hall (43:51.660)

I was, you know, again, I've always liked playing sports

Lex Fridman (43:53.900)

and liked reading and I always enjoyed video games.

Lex Fridman (43:56.460)

But my favorite video game I think I've ever played was

Lex Fridman (43:59.100)

Knights of the Old Republic.

Ryan Hall (44:00.860)

It was a Star Wars game.

Lex Fridman (44:01.740)

A huge Star Wars fan until it become less so recently.

Ryan Hall (44:06.140)

Disney.

Lex Fridman (44:07.660)

You don't like the, I haven't watched it yet.

Ryan Hall (44:09.580)

Oh, Mandalorian.

Lex Fridman (44:11.020)

Oh, don't go there.

Ryan Hall (44:11.740)

Oh, actually, I like Mandalorian.

Lex Fridman (44:13.180)

That was actually pretty cool.

Ryan Hall (44:14.060)

Yeah, waving this off.

Lex Fridman (44:15.420)

Yeah, yeah, I will.

Ryan Hall (44:17.340)

If I could cancel one thing, I would cancel Disney Star Wars.

Lex Fridman (44:20.140)

I'm going to edit that part out.

Ryan Hall (44:21.260)

Okay, let's go to the next.

Lex Fridman (44:23.260)

But this is where if people are wondering if you're watching

Ryan Hall (44:26.300)

this on YouTube and like the dislike amount is like 80%

Lex Fridman (44:29.980)

it's because of that comment.

Lex Fridman (44:31.500)

So good job.

Lex Fridman (44:32.860)

Good job for making the internet hate you.

Ryan Hall (44:34.700)

I regret nothing.

Lex Fridman (44:35.740)

Now, what about Baby Yoda?

Ryan Hall (44:39.020)

Yeah, I guess he's like little.

Lex Fridman (44:41.340)

He's got ears and he uses the force sometimes and he passes

Ryan Hall (44:43.820)

out again.

Lex Fridman (44:44.300)

No qualms with Baby Yoda.

Ryan Hall (44:45.900)

Yeah, you don't have a heart.

Lex Fridman (44:47.100)

Okay, let's go to Jiu Jitsu if it's okay.

Lex Fridman (44:54.460)

So the audience of this podcast may not know much about Jiu Jitsu

Lex Fridman (44:59.420)

or they do because it's really part of the culture now,

Lex Fridman (45:01.820)

but they don't really know much.

Lex Fridman (45:04.540)

They see that so many people have fallen in love with it,

Ryan Hall (45:07.180)

have been transformed through it, but they don't know much

Lex Fridman (45:09.020)

about like, what is this thing?

Ryan Hall (45:10.620)

Is there a way you could sort of try to explain what is

Lex Fridman (45:14.780)

Jiu Jitsu, what is the essence of this martial art that's

Lex Fridman (45:17.660)

captured the minds and hearts of so many people in the world?

Lex Fridman (45:22.060)

I think that Jiu Jitsu is a philosophy that's expressed

Ryan Hall (45:27.100)

physically and that it's the kind of development of the

Lex Fridman (45:32.460)

mental capacity and physical capacity working in unison to

Ryan Hall (45:38.220)

move efficiently and almost flowingly, unresistingly with

Lex Fridman (45:45.420)

a given situation, with a physically resisting opponent.

Ryan Hall (45:50.380)

Learning how to generate force on your own and how to steal

Lex Fridman (45:53.980)

force from the floor, how to steal force from the other

Ryan Hall (45:56.220)

person and move in concert with it as opposed to clash

Lex Fridman (45:59.340)

against, which if you watch two untrained people fight,

Ryan Hall (46:01.980)

it's almost entirely a clash.

Lex Fridman (46:03.340)

It's a runaway and clash, a runaway and clash.

Ryan Hall (46:05.500)

If you watch Jiu Jitsu done well, it looks like water

Lex Fridman (46:10.300)

moving around a solid structure.

Lex Fridman (46:12.540)

And I think that that is expressed physically.

Lex Fridman (46:15.580)

And I think that all of the things that anyone has really

Ryan Hall (46:19.020)

been able to do very, very well in Jiu Jitsu end up kind

Lex Fridman (46:22.540)

of exemplifying that.

Lex Fridman (46:24.060)

But I think that's true of martial arts in general.

Lex Fridman (46:26.300)

I think that a lot of times like the clashing that we see

Ryan Hall (46:28.700)

going on and working well is just the fact that it's

Lex Fridman (46:33.020)

you know, you get very, very physically powerful people

Ryan Hall (46:35.660)

every now and then they're able to get away with this.

Lex Fridman (46:37.660)

But I don't think that that's, and that's fantastic

Ryan Hall (46:39.900)

because ultimately it's a results driven thing.

Lex Fridman (46:41.660)

But I think that the essence of the martial arts is learning

Lex Fridman (46:44.220)

how to make more out of less and how to move with

Lex Fridman (46:46.300)

and be yielding, almost like real life Aikido.

Lex Fridman (46:49.580)

And so you think of martial arts, Jiu Jitsu as like water

Lex Fridman (46:57.100)

or flowing, so Aikido, so moving around a solid structure

Lex Fridman (47:01.100)

so Aikido, so moving around the force as opposed to sort of

Lex Fridman (47:08.940)

maybe the wrestling mindset is finding a leverage

Ryan Hall (47:12.620)

where you can apply an exceptional amount of force.

Lex Fridman (47:15.100)

So like, so like maximizing the application of force.

Ryan Hall (47:18.540)

I guess maybe that's a better way to, I'd like to marry

Lex Fridman (47:20.540)

the two ideas, you know, because I think you flow

Ryan Hall (47:22.940)

until the point at which you are the greater force

Lex Fridman (47:25.020)

at which point in time you can apply.

Lex Fridman (47:27.180)

But if you look at the best wrestlers and then when I say

Lex Fridman (47:29.980)

best, I don't necessarily mean most successful

Ryan Hall (47:31.580)

although of course most successful are always very

Lex Fridman (47:33.900)

very good throughout the course of history in boxing

Ryan Hall (47:37.500)

in wrestling, in Judo, they're magical.

Lex Fridman (47:41.820)

They disappear and reappear.

Ryan Hall (47:43.500)

It's like fighting a ghost that is like incorporeal

Lex Fridman (47:46.540)

when you want to find it.

Lex Fridman (47:47.500)

But then when you don't want it to find it

Lex Fridman (47:49.580)

when you don't want to find it, it finds you.

Lex Fridman (47:51.580)

And I think that we see that in the like the Bufais

Lex Fridman (47:54.780)

or societies of wrestling.

Lex Fridman (47:56.380)

And you know, I guess you could look at a Floyd Mayweather

Lex Fridman (47:59.580)

or Willie Pep or you know, Prunell Whitaker in boxing

Ryan Hall (48:03.580)

as brilliant examples of disappearing and reappearing.

Lex Fridman (48:07.740)

And when you're strong, it's almost like guerrilla warfare.

Ryan Hall (48:10.780)

When you're strong, I'm nowhere to be found.

Lex Fridman (48:12.860)

When you're weak, you can't get rid of me.

Lex Fridman (48:14.940)

And I think that's what we're looking for.

Lex Fridman (48:16.220)

Yes, the TF brothers are incredible at that.

Ryan Hall (48:18.300)

They just, they look like skinny Starbucks baristas

Lex Fridman (48:23.100)

and they just manhandle everybody like effortlessly.

Ryan Hall (48:29.900)

They look like they just kind of woke up,

Lex Fridman (48:31.820)

rolled out of bed, fighting for like the gold medal

Ryan Hall (48:35.820)

at the Olympics and just effortlessly throw,

Lex Fridman (48:39.900)

like there's a match against, I guess, Yul Romero.

Ryan Hall (48:43.820)

Yeah, so like, you know, if you look at like

Lex Fridman (48:46.140)

who is the guy who's like intimidating in this case

Lex Fridman (48:49.180)

and terrifying looking, it's Yul Romero,

Lex Fridman (48:53.500)

just like a physical specimen

Lex Fridman (48:55.980)

and obviously like a super accomplished wrestler.

Lex Fridman (48:58.220)

I think this is for the gold medal, yeah.

Ryan Hall (49:00.540)

In 2000.

Lex Fridman (49:02.300)

In 2000?

Ryan Hall (49:03.140)

Yeah, Sydney.

Lex Fridman (49:03.980)

And then there, this is the year you all took silver.

Lex Fridman (49:08.460)

And what you, like, just to show you like

Lex Fridman (49:12.060)

there's a inside trip, effortless.

Ryan Hall (49:15.100)

Uchi, and he does it again.

Lex Fridman (49:17.020)

Yep, you know, it's a really creative kind of wrestling

Ryan Hall (49:22.260)

where it's organic.

Lex Fridman (49:23.980)

Yeah, you throw in all of these kinds of things.

Ryan Hall (49:26.300)

This is a mix of judo, a mix of like weird kind of moves.

Lex Fridman (49:31.340)

It's not like as funky as Ben Askren.

Ryan Hall (49:34.620)

It's just like legitimate, basic.

Lex Fridman (49:39.020)

Well, it's not funky for funky sake.

Lex Fridman (49:40.700)

And I'm not poking at Ben Askren to imply

Lex Fridman (49:42.660)

that that's what he's doing, but it's like, it's funny.

Ryan Hall (49:45.020)

It's like, a lot of times it's almost like Musashi

Lex Fridman (49:47.220)

talked a lot about that.

Ryan Hall (49:48.460)

You know, that the only goal of combat is to win

Lex Fridman (49:51.180)

is the outcome is it's outcome driven

Ryan Hall (49:53.460)

versus like flourishing, you know, cool looking movements.

Lex Fridman (49:56.660)

It's like, unless that had a utilitarian purpose,

Lex Fridman (49:58.820)

like what are you wasting your time with that?

Lex Fridman (50:00.780)

Both in the fight and also, you know, in practice.

Lex Fridman (50:03.780)

But as you mentioned, it's almost like it looks like judo.

Lex Fridman (50:06.020)

It looks like wrestling, it looks like jujitsu.

Ryan Hall (50:07.540)

It's almost like, I guess the reminds me

Lex Fridman (50:09.780)

all of the martial arts is again, deeply tribal as well.

Ryan Hall (50:12.660)

I wanna learn Lex Fridman, martial arts.

Lex Fridman (50:14.700)

And then I wanna learn another, you know,

Ryan Hall (50:16.900)

I guess, transcendent person's martial arts.

Lex Fridman (50:18.820)

And it just happened to be the set of movements

Ryan Hall (50:20.620)

that you tended to do most of the time,

Lex Fridman (50:22.620)

thanks to your body type and your opposition and whatnot.

Lex Fridman (50:25.060)

But then I try to codify that and force those to work

Lex Fridman (50:27.380)

as opposed to going, I wanna understand how the body works

Ryan Hall (50:30.900)

in concert and in Congress with something else

Lex Fridman (50:33.660)

and other forces and move appropriately.

Lex Fridman (50:36.140)

And that's why it's like, it always struck me

Lex Fridman (50:37.740)

that the Saiki brothers are great examples

Ryan Hall (50:39.620)

of just moving like water, but they,

Lex Fridman (50:41.940)

to use Bruce Lee, which is a little trite,

Lex Fridman (50:43.820)

but again, he's brilliant.

Lex Fridman (50:44.660)

It's like water can flow or water can crash.

Lex Fridman (50:47.060)

And they would crash when they needed to crash

Lex Fridman (50:48.540)

and they would flow when they needed to flow,

Lex Fridman (50:49.780)

but they would flow for the purpose of dissipating

Lex Fridman (50:51.820)

and then crash when they would win.

Lex Fridman (50:53.580)

And at the right moment, then go back to flowing

Lex Fridman (50:55.580)

the second that the other person found them.

Lex Fridman (50:57.140)

And it's just, it's beautiful to watch, it's artistic.

Lex Fridman (50:59.860)

And I think that that great expression of anything physical

Ryan Hall (51:02.260)

is ultimately studied as a science,

Lex Fridman (51:04.260)

but expressed as an art.

Lex Fridman (51:05.260)

And I think that that's something that gets lost

Lex Fridman (51:06.700)

in jujitsu a lot of times when it gets a little bit,

Ryan Hall (51:08.940)

a little nerdy, like do this hand here, hand here.

Lex Fridman (51:10.860)

Like it's like the more details I have,

Ryan Hall (51:12.460)

the better when in reality, that's just not,

Lex Fridman (51:15.300)

not in my experience, how it's done.

Ryan Hall (51:17.860)

Might be fun exercise of saying like,

Lex Fridman (51:21.260)

what are the main positions and submissions

Lex Fridman (51:25.700)

in the art of jujitsu?

Lex Fridman (51:27.860)

You don't have to be complete, that's a ridiculously,

Ryan Hall (51:30.380)

I apologize for putting you on a spot like this,

Lex Fridman (51:32.300)

but it might be a nice exercise to think through it.

Ryan Hall (51:35.020)

Sure, I mean, I would just say that there,

Lex Fridman (51:37.300)

you have your arms bend in various ways.

Ryan Hall (51:39.460)

You have key lock Americana, straight arm locks,

Lex Fridman (51:41.820)

Kimura, omoplata, omoplata is a Kimura,

Ryan Hall (51:43.940)

Kimura is an omoplata, it's just executed.

Lex Fridman (51:45.460)

Submissions.

Ryan Hall (51:46.300)

Submissions, yes.

Lex Fridman (51:47.140)

Breaking off your arm in all kinds of ways.

Lex Fridman (51:49.580)

But ultimately, the question is,

Lex Fridman (51:51.460)

let's say you were a Terminator,

Ryan Hall (51:52.660)

like a robot that I, which of course you are.

Lex Fridman (51:54.580)

Go on.

Ryan Hall (51:55.420)

Go on.

Lex Fridman (51:56.260)

It's like, all right, so we're being completely literal.

Ryan Hall (51:58.980)

But, and I couldn't harm you with any of these things.

Lex Fridman (52:02.060)

Would I still use these positions?

Ryan Hall (52:03.580)

The answer is yes.

Lex Fridman (52:04.420)

They create leverage, they create control,

Ryan Hall (52:06.620)

they create shapes that I can affect

Lex Fridman (52:08.540)

and that can affect me and they can be affected

Ryan Hall (52:10.700)

through other forces and other objects or structures

Lex Fridman (52:13.140)

like the ground or the wall.

Ryan Hall (52:14.220)

I really enjoy mixed martial arts

Lex Fridman (52:15.420)

because there's another component

Ryan Hall (52:17.380)

rather than just me and you and the floor,

Lex Fridman (52:18.980)

there's me, you, the floor, and the wall.

Lex Fridman (52:20.600)

And it's another player in the game

Lex Fridman (52:21.940)

that doesn't exist in a grappling context

Ryan Hall (52:24.580)

with a non enclosed, I guess, area of combat.

Lex Fridman (52:28.580)

But you can strangle me or choke me,

Lex Fridman (52:32.980)

what do you call it, without my arms being involved,

Lex Fridman (52:35.940)

or you can use one of my shoulders

Ryan Hall (52:37.800)

to pin one side of my, one carotid artery off

Lex Fridman (52:40.220)

and you can enclose the other.

Ryan Hall (52:41.620)

You can turn my knee in the exact same ways

Lex Fridman (52:43.980)

that you can turn my arm straight this way and that way.

Ryan Hall (52:47.460)

You can add a rotation to that

Lex Fridman (52:48.820)

or it can be directly linear against the joint.

Lex Fridman (52:51.140)

So I guess what I would say is the more

Lex Fridman (52:52.840)

that I've been able to understand jiu jitsu,

Ryan Hall (52:55.180)

the more that I've been, it's given me a look

Lex Fridman (52:58.300)

into how we learn language where rather

Ryan Hall (53:01.260)

than learning five bazillion adjectives,

Lex Fridman (53:03.260)

I go, I understand what an adjective is.

Lex Fridman (53:05.260)

And of course we are all read

Lex Fridman (53:06.260)

into some degree of vocabulary.

Ryan Hall (53:09.100)

I understand what an adverb does

Lex Fridman (53:11.220)

and I understand what an adverb is.

Ryan Hall (53:12.980)

I know what a noun is.

Lex Fridman (53:13.900)

I know what the component parts of a sentence are.

Ryan Hall (53:16.060)

I know what, you know, I guess a clause,

Lex Fridman (53:18.220)

a contraction, any of these things.

Lex Fridman (53:19.740)

And it allows you to be interesting and artistic

Lex Fridman (53:23.220)

with your language to the extent that you can.

Lex Fridman (53:25.340)

But I can't, like I can speak a degree of Spanish,

Lex Fridman (53:27.540)

but I'm not even slightly artistic in Spanish.

Ryan Hall (53:29.760)

I would be something, I speak like a child

Lex Fridman (53:32.780)

with a head injury.

Lex Fridman (53:33.740)

And anyway, the I.

Lex Fridman (53:35.980)

Your basic understanding of the English language

Ryan Hall (53:38.220)

allows you to then be a student of Spanish.

Lex Fridman (53:40.540)

100%, but I'm limited by my experience.

Ryan Hall (53:43.140)

I'm limited by my understanding of techniques.

Lex Fridman (53:45.620)

I'm limited by my understanding, almost like,

Ryan Hall (53:47.620)

let's say techniques are like these are like vocabulary.

Lex Fridman (53:51.060)

So even if I kind of sort of grasp the sentence structure

Lex Fridman (53:54.220)

and the thought process and the thought patterns

Lex Fridman (53:56.660)

of Spanish, which it's interesting

Ryan Hall (53:58.420)

because just even though the orientation

Lex Fridman (54:00.580)

and the organization of a language,

Lex Fridman (54:01.780)

and I've thought about this a great deal,

Lex Fridman (54:03.780)

you know, the way that I perceive the world

Ryan Hall (54:05.340)

is affected deeply by the language that I learned.

Lex Fridman (54:07.820)

The, you know, the, again, if I learned,

Ryan Hall (54:09.540)

I have no idea how the Chinese language structures,

Lex Fridman (54:11.740)

but I can only imagine that it would be,

Ryan Hall (54:13.520)

that it would affect, it's like a different lens.

Lex Fridman (54:15.140)

We're all looking at the same thing,

Lex Fridman (54:16.380)

but I have a different set of sunglasses on than you do.

Lex Fridman (54:19.540)

And that's very, very interesting.

Ryan Hall (54:21.980)

I'll use the Quran as an example.

Lex Fridman (54:23.340)

You know, apparently it's unbelievably poetic

Lex Fridman (54:25.500)

and in Arabic, still neat

Lex Fridman (54:27.700)

and was interesting reading in English,

Lex Fridman (54:29.540)

but I'm told by people that I trust

Lex Fridman (54:32.080)

that it just one doesn't bear a resemblance to the other.

Lex Fridman (54:34.180)

And I think that's a very interesting thing

Lex Fridman (54:35.800)

that you may be able to say the same thing,

Lex Fridman (54:37.940)

but in a more, I guess, in a different way,

Lex Fridman (54:41.100)

in a more artistic way that may not translate

Ryan Hall (54:43.900)

on a one for one kind of fidelity.

Lex Fridman (54:45.780)

But the more that we're able to understand

Ryan Hall (54:49.020)

about how the body works,

Lex Fridman (54:50.300)

the more examples of the body working this way,

Ryan Hall (54:52.200)

the body working that way, the body working that way,

Lex Fridman (54:54.300)

the more that I'm able to eventually become an artist,

Lex Fridman (54:56.340)

but it has to be studied as a science first.

Lex Fridman (54:57.980)

And it does start with technique collection,

Ryan Hall (54:59.700)

vocabulary collection, the same way we learn in school.

Lex Fridman (55:02.460)

You remember how to say quickly 17 different ways.

Lex Fridman (55:06.780)

And let's say I speak Spanish, I'm only, I only know three.

Lex Fridman (55:10.420)

So you might use quickly, you might use an adjective

Ryan Hall (55:13.340)

like quickly in Spanish, but use one of the many,

Lex Fridman (55:15.360)

many options to describe that, that I don't understand.

Lex Fridman (55:17.500)

And now I sit there and go like, wait, what?

Lex Fridman (55:20.020)

I can't be artistic.

Ryan Hall (55:21.220)

I can't be as organic with the language as I'd like.

Lex Fridman (55:23.340)

So I believe that jujitsu a lot of times starts

Ryan Hall (55:25.200)

with the acquisition of a lot of, hey, do this, this,

Lex Fridman (55:28.420)

this drill, this technique.

Ryan Hall (55:29.540)

Here's an Americana, Americana to an armlock,

Lex Fridman (55:31.460)

armlock to a triangle.

Lex Fridman (55:33.380)

But the problem with that is oftentimes

Lex Fridman (55:35.740)

we get stuck in that phase.

Lex Fridman (55:37.700)

And people eventually become move collectors

Lex Fridman (55:40.740)

or sequence collectors.

Lex Fridman (55:41.740)

And I noticed this when I'm trying to do DVDs

Lex Fridman (55:43.660)

or I guess like an instructional series now,

Ryan Hall (55:45.660)

or even teaching in class,

Lex Fridman (55:47.180)

I don't believe in that form of learning anymore.

Ryan Hall (55:49.660)

Not that it's not valuable, but I don't believe,

Lex Fridman (55:52.260)

I don't understand jujitsu on that level anymore.

Lex Fridman (55:54.000)

So what I'm trying to do is get across the basic ideas

Lex Fridman (55:56.260)

to people and say, hey, you need to fill in the gaps

Ryan Hall (55:59.220)

with going to class all the time.

Lex Fridman (56:01.180)

You need to go, hey, learn this move, learn that technique,

Ryan Hall (56:03.220)

learn that technique.

Lex Fridman (56:04.060)

Because otherwise I'm basically just throwing at you

Ryan Hall (56:05.980)

like 75 different words that you could use,

Lex Fridman (56:08.500)

but that hasn't really taught you how to speak a language.

Ryan Hall (56:12.040)

Whereas if you give me a language structure,

Lex Fridman (56:14.020)

you can fill in these pieces on your own

Lex Fridman (56:16.140)

and then eventually speak organically in Lex form,

Lex Fridman (56:19.020)

which will be ultimately unique to you

Ryan Hall (56:20.820)

because otherwise you just end up being like a weird facsimile

Lex Fridman (56:24.060)

of whatever it is that I'm doing

Ryan Hall (56:25.700)

for mostly the worst I'd say, but.

Lex Fridman (56:29.140)

Yeah, that's what people, I mean, people comment like,

Ryan Hall (56:31.180)

is this, especially people who haven't listened to me before,

Lex Fridman (56:34.640)

is this guy drunk or high?

Ryan Hall (56:37.140)

Does he, does MIT really allow slow people to be,

Lex Fridman (56:42.980)

like what's. Quotas.

Ryan Hall (56:44.420)

Quotas, yeah.

Lex Fridman (56:45.540)

Like what's wrong with him?

Lex Fridman (56:47.020)

Is he getting sleep?

Lex Fridman (56:48.020)

Are you okay?

Lex Fridman (56:49.140)

Does he need help?

Lex Fridman (56:50.420)

So that's similar with my jiu jitsu.

Ryan Hall (56:52.300)

It's like, is this guy, is this guy really,

Lex Fridman (56:54.900)

whatever rank I was throughout,

Lex Fridman (56:57.180)

I remember just like, is this guy really this rank?

Lex Fridman (57:01.020)

I just have a very kind of certain way of sitting

Lex Fridman (57:03.520)

and being slow and lazy looking

Lex Fridman (57:06.340)

that there was ultimately the language

Ryan Hall (57:08.260)

that I had to discover.

Lex Fridman (57:09.420)

And it was, it was, yeah,

Ryan Hall (57:11.820)

it was a very liberating moment.

Lex Fridman (57:13.500)

I think of probably a few years of getting my ass kicked,

Ryan Hall (57:19.500)

especially with Open Guard and butterfly

Lex Fridman (57:21.420)

to where you really allow yourself

Ryan Hall (57:22.900)

to take in the entirety of the language

Lex Fridman (57:24.980)

and realize that, that I'm not, I'm different.

Ryan Hall (57:29.140)

I'm a unique, I'm unique.

Lex Fridman (57:31.900)

And like, I have a very, I have a language,

Ryan Hall (57:35.300)

I have a set of techniques,

Lex Fridman (57:36.700)

a way I move my body that needs,

Ryan Hall (57:39.620)

that I'm the one to discover.

Lex Fridman (57:41.300)

Like it's, you can only,

Ryan Hall (57:43.380)

you can learn specific techniques and so on,

Lex Fridman (57:45.220)

but you really have to understand your own body.

Lex Fridman (57:47.660)

And that's the beautiful thing about jiu jitsu,

Lex Fridman (57:49.460)

like you said, is like the connection about your philosophy,

Ryan Hall (57:54.460)

your view of the world with the physical

Lex Fridman (57:57.100)

and like connecting those two things,

Lex Fridman (57:59.260)

how you perceive the world,

Lex Fridman (58:00.940)

how you interpret ideas of the world about exhaustion,

Ryan Hall (58:04.780)

about force, about effortlessness,

Lex Fridman (58:07.560)

like what it really means to relax,

Ryan Hall (58:09.100)

all these kinds of loose concepts,

Lex Fridman (58:10.940)

and then actually teach your body to like do those things

Lex Fridman (58:16.460)

and like, you know, and be able to apply force and spurts,

Lex Fridman (58:20.020)

be able to relax and spurts

Lex Fridman (58:21.260)

and like figure all that stuff out for my,

Lex Fridman (58:23.900)

for my individual body.

Lex Fridman (58:26.100)

But it's, as you mentioned,

Lex Fridman (58:27.340)

I couldn't agree with you more, it's a discovery process

Lex Fridman (58:29.340)

and no one can cheat that process,

Lex Fridman (58:31.240)

which is at the same time,

Ryan Hall (58:32.460)

it's almost like imagine I wanna start writing books

Lex Fridman (58:34.260)

in second grade, unless maybe I'm like staggeringly brilliant,

Ryan Hall (58:38.020)

which I can only conceptualize someone being able to do that,

Lex Fridman (58:40.280)

but maybe a Mozart of the English language

Ryan Hall (58:42.360)

where you're out there doing it.

Lex Fridman (58:43.760)

But for most of us, we don't have enough knowledge,

Ryan Hall (58:45.980)

enough information, enough experience

Lex Fridman (58:47.500)

to be able to be, to express ourselves.

Lex Fridman (58:51.100)

So we have to basically input, repeat, which is important,

Lex Fridman (58:56.900)

but it's the process, as you say,

Ryan Hall (58:58.140)

of going through that, of getting your ass kicked,

Lex Fridman (58:59.740)

of just like, well, that didn't work,

Ryan Hall (59:00.860)

well, that didn't work, that felt right,

Lex Fridman (59:02.080)

but I don't know, nobody else does that,

Ryan Hall (59:03.220)

I guess I don't believe in that,

Lex Fridman (59:04.520)

versus eventually going, I don't know,

Ryan Hall (59:06.580)

I'll just try going my own way and see what happens

Lex Fridman (59:08.620)

and now I'll get yelled at and people won't like me

Lex Fridman (59:10.440)

and if it works, they'll say I got lucky

Lex Fridman (59:11.820)

and if it doesn't work, they'll say I was dumb,

Lex Fridman (59:13.740)

but which one, maybe all is right.

Lex Fridman (59:15.460)

But basically, you know,

Ryan Hall (59:17.420)

going through that iterative process

Lex Fridman (59:19.340)

that allows you to eventually find your self expression

Lex Fridman (59:21.900)

and find your voice so that you fight

Lex Fridman (59:24.020)

the same way that you speak, the same way that you write,

Ryan Hall (59:25.980)

the same way that you think in a way that is uniquely you,

Lex Fridman (59:28.660)

that will also ultimately allow you

Ryan Hall (59:31.820)

to understand other people being uniquely them

Lex Fridman (59:33.780)

because even if you can only conceptualize,

Lex Fridman (59:35.660)

and I think about this a lot for society stuff,

Lex Fridman (59:37.700)

where I go, well, this is how I feel about this,

Lex Fridman (59:39.700)

but am I objectively right?

Lex Fridman (59:41.540)

Maybe about a couple things, but that's a small box

Ryan Hall (59:43.700)

that I have to be very, very careful about

Lex Fridman (59:45.060)

what I think is objective versus what's not

Lex Fridman (59:47.340)

and I have to be open to the possibility

Lex Fridman (59:48.780)

of all the things that I think are objectively correct

Ryan Hall (59:50.900)

may or may not be.

Lex Fridman (59:52.100)

And that should allow me to have some degree

Ryan Hall (59:54.660)

of compassion or consideration for other people,

Lex Fridman (59:57.020)

both in their martial arts journey

Lex Fridman (59:58.300)

and in their journey as people, as human beings,