Ryan Hall: Solving Martial Arts from First Principles

Lex Fridman (01:25.520)

outside the rules of the game, outside of the system.

Ryan Hall (01:29.120)

When you're thinking about strategies

Lex Fridman (01:31.960)

of how to solve the particular problem of an opponent,

Ryan Hall (01:37.000)

whether that's jiu jitsu or in mixed martial arts,

Lex Fridman (01:40.480)

what's your process for doing that,

Lex Fridman (01:41.840)

for figuring out that puzzle?

Lex Fridman (01:43.720)

I would say, I don't know if I have a specific

Ryan Hall (01:45.720)

like A to B to C process for that sort of thing.

Lex Fridman (01:48.560)

I try to do my best to appreciate that.

Ryan Hall (01:52.280)

I think a lot of the thinking,

Lex Fridman (01:54.260)

or maybe not all the thinking,

Lex Fridman (01:55.960)

but a lot of great thinking on conflict,

Lex Fridman (01:58.840)

on battle, on war, on martial arts has been done already.

Ryan Hall (02:03.720)

Not that we don't have to do any sort of

Lex Fridman (02:05.980)

background investigation or reassessing of these ideas

Ryan Hall (02:08.760)

or axioms that have come down through things

Lex Fridman (02:10.660)

like the book of five rings or the art of war,

Ryan Hall (02:13.360)

or like von Clausewitz, even anything like that really,

Lex Fridman (02:16.920)

but is trying to understand the lessons of the past

Ryan Hall (02:21.680)

that I think oftentimes we don't take with us problem solving.

Lex Fridman (02:26.080)

We pay lip service.

Ryan Hall (02:26.920)

I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman (02:28.080)

You know, a victorious fighter, the great fighter,

Ryan Hall (02:31.000)

you know, he knows victory is there,

Lex Fridman (02:32.960)

then he seeks battle.

Ryan Hall (02:34.640)

Everyone else is looking for victory in battle.

Lex Fridman (02:36.520)

Yeah, moving on.

Lex Fridman (02:37.360)

And that's why I'm gonna double jab and throw my left hand.

Lex Fridman (02:39.440)

And I think a lot of times our actions

Ryan Hall (02:42.080)

don't reflect our stated belief structure.

Lex Fridman (02:45.040)

And I think that oftentimes you can tell

Lex Fridman (02:47.160)

what I believe really,

Lex Fridman (02:48.500)

or what my fundamental operating system is

Ryan Hall (02:50.640)

based on my actions, whether I'm aware,

Lex Fridman (02:52.440)

I have an operating system internally,

Ryan Hall (02:53.960)

whether I'm aware of it or not,

Lex Fridman (02:55.320)

or certainly whether I'm fully aware of it.

Lex Fridman (02:57.200)

So I guess when it comes to strategy,

Lex Fridman (03:00.360)

I try to think about how things interact.

Ryan Hall (03:02.640)

You mentioned systems thinking,

Lex Fridman (03:04.000)

and I try to do my best to understand how systems exist,

Lex Fridman (03:07.500)

but I think that systems have a fundamental strength

Lex Fridman (03:09.760)

and a fundamental weakness.

Ryan Hall (03:11.280)

They work how they work, and that's great,

Lex Fridman (03:14.120)

but they're readable.

Lex Fridman (03:15.580)

So if you are aware, if I am operating on a system

Lex Fridman (03:19.140)

of which you're not really read into,

Ryan Hall (03:21.920)

then I think oftentimes I can seem shockingly effective,

Lex Fridman (03:26.760)

particularly if my system preys on certain weaknesses

Ryan Hall (03:30.140)

that maybe you're given to.

Lex Fridman (03:33.140)

But what happens when you've read the same books that I have?

Ryan Hall (03:36.580)

I think that a lot of times

Lex Fridman (03:38.040)

that makes me deeply predictable.

Ryan Hall (03:39.400)

I think about systems in jiu jitsu,

Lex Fridman (03:41.560)

and a lot of times people think that they're doing jiu jitsu

Ryan Hall (03:46.500)

when in reality they are doing an expression of it.

Lex Fridman (03:48.640)

Let's say I'll use, there's the Marcelo Garcia system.

Ryan Hall (03:51.520)

There is the current Henzo Gracie system.

Lex Fridman (03:54.960)

There's the old Gracie Baja one.

Ryan Hall (03:56.520)

There's the Gracie Academy, classic Gracie jiu jitsu.

Lex Fridman (04:00.640)

There's the art of jiu jitsu, kind of autos approach.

Lex Fridman (04:05.180)

And there's some crossover between a lot of these,

Lex Fridman (04:07.800)

but oftentimes I think when it comes to understanding

Lex Fridman (04:12.880)

how I'm making decisions

Lex Fridman (04:14.480)

and how my opponent is making decisions,

Ryan Hall (04:16.240)

I have to appreciate whether or not I'm an end user

Lex Fridman (04:19.000)

of something, and I'll use my phone as an example.

Ryan Hall (04:21.520)

I was thinking of this the other day,

Lex Fridman (04:22.960)

and as an end user of my phone, I can't,

Ryan Hall (04:25.320)

I have no idea what it does.

Lex Fridman (04:27.080)

Like Edward Snowden comes up and goes,

Ryan Hall (04:28.420)

''Hey guys, you realize your phones are listening to you.''

Lex Fridman (04:30.480)

I'm like, ''Really, what?

Ryan Hall (04:33.120)

All right, I believe you.''

Lex Fridman (04:34.260)

And then of course that comes out,

Lex Fridman (04:35.900)

but to what extent?

Lex Fridman (04:37.680)

I have no idea.

Lex Fridman (04:39.800)

What is my phone capable of?

Lex Fridman (04:40.920)

I have no idea.

Ryan Hall (04:41.960)

I can mess with the font though.

Lex Fridman (04:43.080)

I really like blue screens, not purple screens.

Lex Fridman (04:45.380)

So as an end user, I can change some of the bells

Lex Fridman (04:47.680)

and whistles that have nothing to do

Ryan Hall (04:49.060)

with the underlying source code of it all

Lex Fridman (04:50.600)

or how it functions.

Ryan Hall (04:51.440)

The same way in my car, I'm an end user of my car.

Lex Fridman (04:53.440)

If I do this with the steering wheel, it goes.

Ryan Hall (04:55.320)

If I push on the gas, it goes.

Lex Fridman (04:58.280)

I know how to fix it when it's out of gas.

Ryan Hall (04:59.600)

I know how to fix it when it's out of oil.

Lex Fridman (05:01.140)

And I know how to fix it when a flat tire comes.

Lex Fridman (05:04.600)

But short of that, or actually beyond that, I have nothing.

Lex Fridman (05:07.520)

So I think that oftentimes,

Ryan Hall (05:09.760)

I've been around in jiu jitsu long enough

Lex Fridman (05:11.440)

to encounter a new wave of good grapplers.

Lex Fridman (05:14.620)

And it's very, very interesting sometimes

Lex Fridman (05:16.200)

how they're running systems

Ryan Hall (05:17.740)

they don't realize they're running.

Lex Fridman (05:19.160)

Like, I'm like, oh yeah,

Ryan Hall (05:20.000)

I trained at Marcelo Garcia's Academy for a long time.

Lex Fridman (05:23.240)

And a big fan of Marcelo's was a student there.

Ryan Hall (05:26.540)

Encountered a lot of the auto style jiu jitsu

Lex Fridman (05:29.240)

a number of years ago.

Ryan Hall (05:31.040)

Been very, very deep into foot locking and leg attacks

Lex Fridman (05:35.200)

and whatnot for a long, long time.

Ryan Hall (05:38.040)

I understand your system better than you do, or I may.

Lex Fridman (05:40.360)

And let's say you understand my system better than I do.

Ryan Hall (05:42.720)

That would be a huge issue.

Lex Fridman (05:43.640)

That was something that I encountered a long time ago,

Ryan Hall (05:45.920)

trying to come up in jiu jitsu

Lex Fridman (05:47.120)

where I was trying to utilize systems

Ryan Hall (05:50.460)

that were created by, let's say Hoffa Mendez

Lex Fridman (05:54.160)

or someone else.

Lex Fridman (05:55.000)

And I'm basically trying to do what you're doing.

Lex Fridman (05:56.720)

I'm just not doing as good of a version of it.

Lex Fridman (05:58.640)

So not only am I not doing it well,

Lex Fridman (06:00.520)

but I'm entirely predictable.

Lex Fridman (06:02.340)

And I think that that can be a big issue.

Lex Fridman (06:03.920)

So to come back, I think of systems a lot of times now

Ryan Hall (06:06.620)

in terms of, particularly like end user type of systems,

Lex Fridman (06:09.240)

like an iPhone is a really, really fast way

Ryan Hall (06:11.760)

for me to be able to do all sorts of things.

Lex Fridman (06:14.120)

If you were to take it from me,

Ryan Hall (06:15.240)

I couldn't recreate any of that.

Lex Fridman (06:17.120)

So you want to be more the NSA and less the end user.

Ryan Hall (06:20.320)

Exactly, exactly.

Lex Fridman (06:21.240)

That way I'm listening to you.

Ryan Hall (06:22.080)

You want to be the NSA of combat.

Lex Fridman (06:23.960)

That's right, we're watching UP.

Lex Fridman (06:25.440)

But basically, I guess what I would come back and say

Lex Fridman (06:29.880)

is if you understand how things interact

Ryan Hall (06:32.280)

on a fundamental level and what type of games exist

Lex Fridman (06:35.220)

and what type of interactions exist,

Ryan Hall (06:36.840)

then you can transcend a lot of the systems.

Lex Fridman (06:40.020)

It's almost like a cook versus if I can make certain things

Ryan Hall (06:42.840)

in the kitchen, but I am not a chef.

Lex Fridman (06:45.400)

You could give me a bunch of ingredients

Lex Fridman (06:47.000)

and I could probably cook not well,

Lex Fridman (06:49.700)

but a couple of different things.

Lex Fridman (06:51.360)

But a master chef would be aware of the implications

Lex Fridman (06:55.680)

of all of the things that they're doing,

Ryan Hall (06:57.540)

extra time in the oven, less time in the oven,

Lex Fridman (07:00.240)

putting this flavoring or spice in,

Lex Fridman (07:03.160)

what you're doing with various things.

Lex Fridman (07:04.720)

And also they could turn all of these ingredients

Ryan Hall (07:06.960)

into Chinese food.

Lex Fridman (07:07.800)

They could turn all these ingredients into Italian food

Lex Fridman (07:09.120)

and they could turn all these Italian food ingredients

Lex Fridman (07:10.760)

into chicken Parmesan or it could turn into lasagna.

Lex Fridman (07:13.560)

But they're not limited to a specific thing

Lex Fridman (07:16.120)

because they have knowledge of how food interacts,

Lex Fridman (07:18.880)

what it does to create taste,

Lex Fridman (07:20.080)

what it does to create texture.

Lex Fridman (07:21.440)

So to come back, let's take rock, paper, scissors.

Lex Fridman (07:24.200)

Rock, paper, scissors is built on the idea

Ryan Hall (07:26.760)

of a couple of different things.

Lex Fridman (07:28.040)

Or actually, I'll tell you what,

Lex Fridman (07:28.880)

can I ask you a question?

Lex Fridman (07:31.240)

What's your favorite dinosaur?

Ryan Hall (07:32.700)

On the same, on three, we'll go.

Lex Fridman (07:34.040)

One, two, three.

Ryan Hall (07:37.120)

T. Rex.

Lex Fridman (07:37.960)

So me too, man, we're gonna be best friends.

Lex Fridman (07:40.480)

So it's, okay, so what's the first question

Lex Fridman (07:45.080)

when you say, hey, let's play rock, paper, scissors?

Ryan Hall (07:46.480)

It's like, hey, is it rock, paper, scissors

Lex Fridman (07:47.680)

or rock, paper, scissors, shoot?

Lex Fridman (07:49.240)

And you're like, rock, paper, scissors, shoot.

Lex Fridman (07:50.680)

You're like, okay.

Ryan Hall (07:51.520)

Because if we go rock, paper, scissors, shoot,

Lex Fridman (07:55.480)

and I'm like, oh man, I got lucky and I won.

Ryan Hall (07:58.080)

Imagine I won 100 times in a row.

Lex Fridman (08:00.400)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (08:01.240)

It'd be luck, it'd be luck if I was honestly doing that.

Lex Fridman (08:04.240)

But now let's say, for instance,

Ryan Hall (08:05.560)

I go on rock, paper, scissors and you go on shoot.

Lex Fridman (08:08.160)

Rock, paper, scissors, shoot.

Lex Fridman (08:11.600)

Here comes the rock, right?

Lex Fridman (08:12.840)

If you lose, whose fault is it?

Ryan Hall (08:15.760)

It's yours.

Lex Fridman (08:17.120)

This is built on a parody thing

Ryan Hall (08:18.920)

where I don't get to pick second.

Lex Fridman (08:22.600)

If I get to pick second,

Ryan Hall (08:24.120)

it's like being able to investigate your background

Lex Fridman (08:26.320)

before going to meet you.

Lex Fridman (08:27.260)

And then I'm like, oh, hi.

Lex Fridman (08:28.360)

Oh, I too love the New Jersey, you know,

Ryan Hall (08:30.440)

the New Jersey Nets, which is a statement

Lex Fridman (08:32.400)

that no one in their right mind would ever make

Ryan Hall (08:34.440)

when I was growing up.

Lex Fridman (08:35.760)

So anyway, you'd have to have personal knowledge

Ryan Hall (08:37.880)

of somebody.

Lex Fridman (08:38.800)

So anyway, to come back,

Ryan Hall (08:40.320)

if you understand how games are structured,

Lex Fridman (08:45.200)

you can start to realize that there's huge gaps

Lex Fridman (08:48.120)

and huge holes in a lot of the thinking behind all of it.

Lex Fridman (08:51.700)

And if you can create the illusion of choice,

Ryan Hall (08:54.000)

I'll play one more if you don't mind.

Lex Fridman (08:55.240)

This is one of my favorite ones.

Ryan Hall (08:56.080)

I do this in class all the time.

Lex Fridman (08:57.840)

Have you seen this before?

Ryan Hall (08:58.840)

No.

Lex Fridman (08:59.680)

Okay, may I ask you some questions please?

Ryan Hall (09:01.360)

Sure.

Lex Fridman (09:02.200)

Okay, fantastic.

Ryan Hall (09:03.040)

I'm scared.

Lex Fridman (09:03.880)

Oh, there's, everybody wins.

Ryan Hall (09:04.840)

Don't worry.

Lex Fridman (09:05.680)

All right.

Lex Fridman (09:06.520)

So could you please?

Lex Fridman (09:07.600)

I win.

Ryan Hall (09:08.760)

Could you please pick three fingers

Lex Fridman (09:11.000)

and tell me what they are?

Ryan Hall (09:12.480)

Your thumb.

Lex Fridman (09:13.320)

Okay.

Ryan Hall (09:14.280)

Your pinky.

Lex Fridman (09:15.440)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (09:16.260)

And your middle finger.

Lex Fridman (09:17.160)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (09:18.260)

So could you please pick two fingers?

Lex Fridman (09:21.400)

Your middle finger and your pinky.

Lex Fridman (09:24.120)

Okay, could you please pick one finger?

Lex Fridman (09:27.280)

I'll go with the middle finger.

Ryan Hall (09:28.720)

Woo hoo.

Lex Fridman (09:29.560)

Okay, could you please pick one finger?

Ryan Hall (09:31.840)

Pinky.

Lex Fridman (09:32.680)

Okay, let's play again.

Lex Fridman (09:34.360)

Can you pick one finger, please?

Lex Fridman (09:40.320)

Your middle finger.

Lex Fridman (09:41.720)

Okay, can you pick one finger, please?

Lex Fridman (09:43.480)

Your thumb.

Ryan Hall (09:45.080)

Yeah, your pinky.

Lex Fridman (09:47.720)

Okay, now pick two more fingers, please.

Ryan Hall (09:50.360)

Your middle finger and your ring finger.

Lex Fridman (09:53.680)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (09:54.600)

Could you please pick one more finger?

Lex Fridman (09:56.120)

Damn it.

Ryan Hall (09:57.060)

So.

Lex Fridman (09:57.900)

I thought that enhanced the illusion of choice.

Ryan Hall (10:00.800)

It's the illusion of choice.

Lex Fridman (10:02.240)

If I'm asking the questions,

Ryan Hall (10:04.720)

provided I ask the right questions,

Lex Fridman (10:07.000)

there can be no correct answer.

Ryan Hall (10:09.240)

Doesn't mean that, I mean, ultimately,

Lex Fridman (10:11.120)

if that's what you wanted, let's say,

Ryan Hall (10:13.080)

like I thought I was guiding you to something I wanted,

Lex Fridman (10:15.320)

it turns out that was the outcome you wanted.

Ryan Hall (10:17.440)

Now I'm gonna ask the wrong questions.

Lex Fridman (10:19.140)

I might not get what I wanted, so.

Ryan Hall (10:20.320)

Oh, by the way, sorry to interrupt.

Lex Fridman (10:22.560)

For people that might be just listening to this,

Ryan Hall (10:25.300)

that no matter what trajectory we took

Lex Fridman (10:28.400)

through that decision tree that Ryan was presenting,

Ryan Hall (10:30.640)

it was always ending up with a middle finger,

Lex Fridman (10:32.360)

ironically enough.

Ryan Hall (10:34.120)

I was surprised.

Lex Fridman (10:35.720)

So, and.

Ryan Hall (10:37.080)

All of us were surprised, and we're both winners.

Lex Fridman (10:39.600)

Yeah, we all, everyone was.

Ryan Hall (10:41.400)

I felt like a winner.

Lex Fridman (10:42.640)

All right, so now I'm gonna,

Ryan Hall (10:44.280)

now I'll ask some different questions, if you don't mind.

Lex Fridman (10:47.080)

Can you please pick two fingers to put down?

Ryan Hall (10:51.840)

Your middle finger and your pinky.

Lex Fridman (10:54.080)

All right, sorry.

Ryan Hall (10:54.920)

Oh, that's so awkward.

Lex Fridman (10:55.760)

That's like the worst finger positions.

Ryan Hall (10:57.600)

Okay, can you please pick, wait a minute.

Lex Fridman (10:59.240)

That's, oh, hold on.

Ryan Hall (11:00.960)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (11:01.800)

Well, what if you picked two other fingers to put down?

Ryan Hall (11:05.800)

Your thumb and your pinky.

Lex Fridman (11:06.800)

Okay, my thumb and my pinky.

Lex Fridman (11:07.840)

Can you please pick two fingers to put down?

Lex Fridman (11:11.840)

Well.

Ryan Hall (11:12.680)

Whatever two you like.

Lex Fridman (11:14.000)

Okay, your middle finger and your pointy finger.

Lex Fridman (11:16.920)

Ah, okay, can you pick two fingers to put down?

Lex Fridman (11:19.880)

What's the name?

Ryan Hall (11:20.720)

It's index finger.

Lex Fridman (11:21.540)

Index finger.

Lex Fridman (11:22.380)

Why did I call it the pointy finger?

Lex Fridman (11:23.200)

Pointy, it's the pointy one.

Ryan Hall (11:24.040)

That's the one we usually point.

Lex Fridman (11:24.880)

It's weird to point with the ring finger.

Lex Fridman (11:27.340)

Sorry, what?

Lex Fridman (11:28.180)

Two more to put down, please.

Ryan Hall (11:30.960)

The middle finger and the ring finger.

Lex Fridman (11:32.840)

Ah, man.

Lex Fridman (11:34.640)

What if you pick my ring finger and my index finger?

Lex Fridman (11:38.040)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (11:38.880)

Aha, woohoo, I win.

Lex Fridman (11:40.480)

So even though I'm asking the questions,

Ryan Hall (11:42.240)

it's not impossible that I arrive at a good outcome for me,

Lex Fridman (11:45.200)

but it's no longer guaranteed.

Ryan Hall (11:47.000)

I went from a situation where I literally can't lose.

Lex Fridman (11:49.680)

Yeah, it's pretty low probability.

Ryan Hall (11:51.640)

Right, super low probability.

Lex Fridman (11:53.200)

And the second you realize what I'm doing,

Ryan Hall (11:54.960)

you would never let me win

Lex Fridman (11:56.320)

because the ball's truly in your court.

Lex Fridman (11:58.160)

So I guess that's kind of what I'm fundamentally trying

Lex Fridman (12:01.640)

to put into play almost all the time.

Lex Fridman (12:03.880)

Can I ask the right set of questions?

Lex Fridman (12:05.820)

Can I develop the ability skills wise, understanding wise,

Lex Fridman (12:10.520)

and then discipline wise,

Lex Fridman (12:11.920)

and then have the courage and the constitution

Lex Fridman (12:14.420)

and the discipline necessary,

Lex Fridman (12:16.200)

the patience necessary to ask the proper questions

Lex Fridman (12:20.140)

and wait for the proper answers?

Lex Fridman (12:22.000)

And if I can,

Ryan Hall (12:24.080)

assuming the perfect world, I win, period.

Lex Fridman (12:29.960)

Yeah, so does that make sense?

Ryan Hall (12:30.920)

Yeah, that totally makes sense.

Lex Fridman (12:32.080)

So I don't know if you know

Ryan Hall (12:33.760)

sort of the more mathematical discipline of game theory.

Lex Fridman (12:36.800)

There's something called mechanism design.

Lex Fridman (12:39.160)

So game theory is this field where you model

Lex Fridman (12:43.860)

some kind of interaction between human beings.

Ryan Hall (12:46.240)

You could model grappling that way.

Lex Fridman (12:48.160)

You can model nuclear conflict between nations that way.

Lex Fridman (12:52.080)

And you set up a set of rules and incentives

Lex Fridman (12:56.080)

and then use math to predict

Lex Fridman (13:00.160)

what is likely outcome depending over time

Lex Fridman (13:03.840)

based on the interaction given those rules.

Ryan Hall (13:06.240)

Mechanism design is the design of games.

Lex Fridman (13:11.640)

So like the design of systems

Ryan Hall (13:14.020)

that are likely to lead to a certain outcome.

Lex Fridman (13:18.540)

And so what you're suggesting is

Ryan Hall (13:21.060)

you want to discover systems whose decision tree,

Lex Fridman (13:27.640)

all the possible things that could happen,

Ryan Hall (13:29.620)

feel like there's choice being made,

Lex Fridman (13:32.540)

but ultimately one of the parties

Ryan Hall (13:36.040)

doesn't have any choice

Lex Fridman (13:37.880)

in what the actual final outcome is.

Ryan Hall (13:40.840)

You're making them feel like they're playing a game too.

Lex Fridman (13:43.700)

So it's not like you don't feel trapped.

Ryan Hall (13:46.660)

It's kind of like.

Lex Fridman (13:47.500)

Well, the best traps, you don't look very threatening.

Lex Fridman (13:50.880)

So I'm like, oh, I'll walk over there.

Lex Fridman (13:52.840)

I guess wouldn't that,

Ryan Hall (13:55.000)

I guess that's kind of an interesting thing.

Lex Fridman (13:56.400)

If a lion, when does a lion roar?

Ryan Hall (13:58.800)

It's an interesting thing when you watch like lions hunting.

Lex Fridman (14:01.600)

Don't roar when they hunt.

Ryan Hall (14:03.680)

They want to, when they want to move you back,

Lex Fridman (14:05.280)

they do stuff like that.

Ryan Hall (14:06.200)

When they actually want to come and get you,

Lex Fridman (14:08.320)

they're pretty slinky.

Ryan Hall (14:09.320)

It's like water covered.

Lex Fridman (14:10.520)

It's like furry water.

Lex Fridman (14:12.280)

And I guess like when you keep that in mind,

Lex Fridman (14:16.440)

it's funny how, like for us a hobby actually,

Ryan Hall (14:18.960)

a brilliant guy, like one of my MMA coaches

Lex Fridman (14:21.040)

and the head coach at TriStar,

Ryan Hall (14:22.880)

he brought this up one time.

Lex Fridman (14:23.800)

I thought it was a really salient point.

Ryan Hall (14:25.040)

Said, let's say we have a million person bracket.

Lex Fridman (14:27.800)

Impossibly huge.

Ryan Hall (14:28.880)

Like Frank Dukes went in the Kumite level huge bracket.

Lex Fridman (14:31.840)

He claimed to knock out like 250 consecutive people.

Lex Fridman (14:34.920)

And you're like, that is all of Hong Kong

Lex Fridman (14:38.120)

was in that thing.

Lex Fridman (14:38.960)

And everyone kept their mouth shut.

Lex Fridman (14:40.360)

But anyway, that's pretty cool.

Lex Fridman (14:41.680)

But to come back a little improbable, pretty cool.

Lex Fridman (14:45.360)

So let's say for instance, like there's no cheating going on,

Lex Fridman (14:48.000)

no cheating going on and we're flipping coins, right?

Lex Fridman (14:51.040)

Someone is gonna have an unbroken string of victory

Ryan Hall (14:54.520)

through that bracket, which is pretty insane.

Lex Fridman (14:57.960)

How many consecutive like toss ups this person won.

Lex Fridman (15:01.280)

And then at the end of it all,

Lex Fridman (15:04.040)

imagine like aliens show up and we go,

Ryan Hall (15:07.480)

hey, they wanna flip a coin for whether or not Earth,

Lex Fridman (15:09.880)

whether or not Earth gets to continue.

Ryan Hall (15:12.640)

They'd be like, oh, I'll do it.

Lex Fridman (15:15.040)

I'm good at this.

Ryan Hall (15:17.160)

That would be tempting as a person to do.

Lex Fridman (15:19.160)

You're like, I'm a lucky guy.

Lex Fridman (15:20.960)

Are you sure?

Lex Fridman (15:22.280)

Maybe, I mean, maybe effectively you are.

Ryan Hall (15:23.680)

We could argue that effectively you're incredibly lucky.

Lex Fridman (15:25.400)

But basically is that an actual ability?

Ryan Hall (15:27.320)

Is that like a perk in a video game

Lex Fridman (15:28.600)

or is that just this thing that happened?

Lex Fridman (15:30.120)

So anyway, how many times are someone,

Lex Fridman (15:33.720)

you could go through an entire career,

Ryan Hall (15:35.760)

particularly in a fight sport.

Lex Fridman (15:37.840)

Well, let's say you get 15 knockouts

Lex Fridman (15:39.400)

and 15 toss up scenarios.

Lex Fridman (15:41.040)

Cause you see that happening all the time

Ryan Hall (15:42.360)

in the fight game, a toss up scenario.

Lex Fridman (15:43.720)

It's not like you're mounted on me

Lex Fridman (15:45.200)

and that's not a toss up scenario.

Lex Fridman (15:47.480)

Many, many, many, many, many striking scenarios.

Ryan Hall (15:49.400)

A lot of grappling ones,

Lex Fridman (15:50.240)

but tons of striking scenarios are dead toss ups.

Lex Fridman (15:53.120)

And somebody wins by knockout.

Lex Fridman (15:55.680)

They win five times in a row.

Ryan Hall (15:56.520)

Then they lose a couple of times in a row.

Lex Fridman (15:58.000)

We go, what happened?

Lex Fridman (15:58.840)

You're like, what do you mean what happened?

Lex Fridman (15:59.760)

They were always flipping the coin.

Lex Fridman (16:00.960)

And then they win five more and they go, ah, back on track.

Lex Fridman (16:03.680)

Can you imagine that?

Ryan Hall (16:04.520)

You're flipping a coin.

Lex Fridman (16:05.360)

I'm like heads, heads, heads, heads, tails.

Lex Fridman (16:06.760)

What?

Lex Fridman (16:07.600)

Tails, tails, heads again.

Ryan Hall (16:09.000)

Oh man, I'm back on it.

Lex Fridman (16:09.840)

I'm flipping good now.

Ryan Hall (16:11.040)

That's basically what's going on.

Lex Fridman (16:12.840)

I think the vast majority of the time

Lex Fridman (16:14.440)

and then humanity's tendency to see a sign

Lex Fridman (16:17.440)

in almost anything, it starts to present itself.

Lex Fridman (16:20.920)

And then we build a narrative in our mind

Lex Fridman (16:22.600)

to convince ourselves that we're in some sort of control.

Ryan Hall (16:25.480)

When in reality, I was in a marginal situation

Lex Fridman (16:27.880)

at best the whole time.

Ryan Hall (16:30.080)

Yeah, without having much control,

Lex Fridman (16:31.320)

without having a deep understanding of the system.

Ryan Hall (16:33.200)

The same story is told in the stock market.

Lex Fridman (16:35.120)

With many of these distributed human systems,

Ryan Hall (16:38.200)

we start telling narratives and start seeing patterns

Lex Fridman (16:40.960)

without understanding actually the system

Ryan Hall (16:43.440)

that's generating these patterns.

Lex Fridman (16:44.680)

So if we can see the system, that's incredibly valuable,

Lex Fridman (16:47.120)

but then you go, well,

Lex Fridman (16:47.960)

what system is above all of the systems?

Lex Fridman (16:49.920)

And I guess maybe physics, maybe something like game theory

Lex Fridman (16:52.320)

explains these things with like, I guess what are the,

Lex Fridman (16:54.520)

what aspects of the system can I put my hands on

Lex Fridman (16:57.000)

that I can touch and understand?

Lex Fridman (16:58.440)

And what am I missing?

Lex Fridman (17:00.120)

What's going on in the world all around me

Ryan Hall (17:02.160)

to continue to lean on Dune that I don't have,

Lex Fridman (17:06.080)

you talk to a blind person about the world,

Ryan Hall (17:09.320)

about the site and talk to someone that doesn't have everyone

Lex Fridman (17:12.160)

who's got coronavirus now, so no one can taste or smell.

Lex Fridman (17:14.520)

They're like, this is delicious, like, is it?

Lex Fridman (17:17.680)

So anyway, you know, again, what senses am I missing

Ryan Hall (17:21.960)

or what understanding am I missing

Lex Fridman (17:23.400)

that's preventing me from seeing the dots connect

Lex Fridman (17:27.000)

in the world all around me?

Lex Fridman (17:28.640)

And I think sometimes if we are oftentimes

Ryan Hall (17:31.360)

at least personally, I've screwed this up a lot.

Lex Fridman (17:33.400)

I'm so nose deep in the trench of trying to understand

Lex Fridman (17:36.280)

what I'm doing that I can't take a step back

Lex Fridman (17:37.880)

and realize, you know, that I'm in a forest,

Ryan Hall (17:40.240)

not just headbutting a tree.

Lex Fridman (17:42.360)

And I may be doing both, maybe both,

Ryan Hall (17:43.960)

two things should be true at once.

Lex Fridman (17:45.360)

But so I would say when it comes to strategy,

Ryan Hall (17:48.000)

trying to understand that, but then also you go,

Lex Fridman (17:50.280)

well, okay, well, how can, that sounds cool,

Lex Fridman (17:52.760)

but how can you actually do that?

Lex Fridman (17:54.400)

And then I'd say, that's a really good question

Ryan Hall (17:56.240)

because if I imagine I say, man,

Lex Fridman (17:57.480)

I should fight like Steven Thompson,

Ryan Hall (17:58.880)

I should fight like Wonderboy,

Lex Fridman (18:00.000)

it's like, good idea, go do that.

Ryan Hall (18:01.400)

I'm like, not the guy.

Lex Fridman (18:05.200)

I would fight like Khabib Nurmagomedov if I could.

Ryan Hall (18:07.320)

You know, it seems to work.

Lex Fridman (18:08.560)

So anyway, you go, well, what if I could develop,

Lex Fridman (18:11.640)

what if I could take my time developing skills

Lex Fridman (18:14.000)

so that when these strategies become apparent,

Ryan Hall (18:16.960)

they are executable to you.

Lex Fridman (18:19.280)

You actually have the ability to like,

Ryan Hall (18:21.840)

in or to again, to be the person in the arena,

Lex Fridman (18:24.000)

to be the person required,

Ryan Hall (18:25.480)

whereas there's plenty of great ideas

Lex Fridman (18:26.840)

like dunking a basketball is a fantastic idea.

Ryan Hall (18:29.400)

Alas, for me, unless there's a small trampoline nearby,

Lex Fridman (18:31.960)

I'm not the guy.

Lex Fridman (18:33.120)

But that doesn't make it any less good of an idea.

Lex Fridman (18:35.240)

I just haven't developed the ability or I lack the ability.

Lex Fridman (18:38.720)

So anyway, I think a lot of times,

Lex Fridman (18:40.560)

at least when I watch people in fighting,

Ryan Hall (18:42.080)

I'll use an example.

Lex Fridman (18:43.720)

We're so concerned with trying to win early on

Ryan Hall (18:46.440)

rather than develop skills that I'm going like,

Lex Fridman (18:48.800)

well, what's the best way to fight

Lex Fridman (18:50.320)

with my current set of skills?

Lex Fridman (18:51.800)

And usually the path forward is like the barbarian route,

Ryan Hall (18:54.560)

like you put on the one ring,

Lex Fridman (18:57.160)

take the damage you need to take to hit that guy.

Lex Fridman (18:59.160)

And that was something I realized very early on

Lex Fridman (19:00.520)

in my MMA career was like,

Ryan Hall (19:01.440)

I'm not that good at striking at that time,

Lex Fridman (19:03.600)

not a world class striker now,

Lex Fridman (19:05.520)

but I'm way better at striking

Lex Fridman (19:07.080)

than I'm given any credit for

Ryan Hall (19:08.120)

because it helps people sleep at night, I think.

Lex Fridman (19:09.880)

But I'm serious.

Ryan Hall (19:11.200)

But...

Lex Fridman (19:12.400)

Yeah, yeah, you're always introduced

Ryan Hall (19:13.920)

as like this master grappler.

Lex Fridman (19:17.320)

I'm like, that's nice of them to say that.

Ryan Hall (19:18.640)

Maybe I'm not that good at grappling.

Lex Fridman (19:19.920)

We haven't even seen that.

Lex Fridman (19:21.240)

But the funny thing is where I'm like,

Lex Fridman (19:22.280)

just because people almost go like,

Ryan Hall (19:23.440)

well, Lex, see, you're really good at this,

Lex Fridman (19:25.360)

but you gotta understand, we're equal, man.

Ryan Hall (19:27.080)

I'm good at this other thing.

Lex Fridman (19:28.200)

Maybe you're really good at what you do

Lex Fridman (19:29.560)

and I'm just mediocre at what I do.

Lex Fridman (19:31.080)

That's also possible.

Lex Fridman (19:32.360)

So there's plenty of people that define themselves

Lex Fridman (19:33.880)

as a striker that do that

Ryan Hall (19:35.000)

just because that's for lack of other options.

Lex Fridman (19:36.800)

It's not because they're really good striker.

Ryan Hall (19:38.040)

I'm a grappler.

Lex Fridman (19:38.880)

I was a grappler as a blue belt.

Ryan Hall (19:40.600)

Not really.

Lex Fridman (19:41.440)

So anyway, I guess to come back,

Ryan Hall (19:43.480)

if I'm constantly going,

Lex Fridman (19:45.080)

how can I win with what I've got right now?

Ryan Hall (19:47.120)

I think oftentimes I never take the time

Lex Fridman (19:48.880)

to develop the skills that I wanna develop

Lex Fridman (19:50.520)

and I also never take the time

Lex Fridman (19:51.520)

to develop the strategies that I wanna develop.

Lex Fridman (19:53.080)

And that has actually been a one big blessing

Lex Fridman (19:55.280)

of fighting someone frequently,

Ryan Hall (19:57.320)

which has been really frustrating

Lex Fridman (19:58.440)

as a result of injuries and time away

Ryan Hall (1:00:01.160)

The idea of internalizing the free will not being real.

Lex Fridman (1:00:05.480)

I mean, you're actually making me realize

Ryan Hall (1:00:07.320)

that that ultimately leads to a kind of.

Lex Fridman (1:00:11.080)

Doesn't that go in a nihilistic direction?

Ryan Hall (1:00:12.680)

Yeah, it's both nihilistic

Lex Fridman (1:00:14.660)

or if you want to make it a political system,

Ryan Hall (1:00:16.840)

then it's more like communist type of a system

Lex Fridman (1:00:19.820)

where like the value of the individual

Ryan Hall (1:00:22.560)

is completely reduced, removed.

Lex Fridman (1:00:25.960)

Or another perspective is like the freedom of an individual

Ryan Hall (1:00:30.640)

is not to be valued or protected.

Lex Fridman (1:00:32.400)

And so from our current perspective,

Ryan Hall (1:00:35.240)

the systems that seem to have worked,

Lex Fridman (1:00:36.760)

the United States works pretty damn well,

Ryan Hall (1:00:39.560)

despite all the different criticisms.

Lex Fridman (1:00:41.240)

It seems like freedom of the individual

Ryan Hall (1:00:44.040)

in all its forms seems to be fundamental

Lex Fridman (1:00:47.240)

to the success of the United States.

Lex Fridman (1:00:49.400)

And so we should, it's a, however the hell you put it,

Lex Fridman (1:00:53.560)

is like, it doesn't matter whether free will

Ryan Hall (1:00:55.840)

is or isn't an illusion.

Lex Fridman (1:00:58.040)

The belief that it's real.

Ryan Hall (1:01:00.920)

Protects the individual from the group,

Lex Fridman (1:01:02.480)

which is fundamentally, correct me if I'm wrong,

Ryan Hall (1:01:04.160)

that always seems like the big issue of history.

Lex Fridman (1:01:06.520)

Hey, there's more of me than there is of you.

Ryan Hall (1:01:09.380)

Deal with it.

Lex Fridman (1:01:10.220)

You're like, yikes.

Lex Fridman (1:01:11.640)

And you want to be yourself.

Lex Fridman (1:01:12.800)

You want to be different.

Ryan Hall (1:01:13.640)

You want to have a different religion.

Lex Fridman (1:01:14.840)

You want to be a different skin color.

Ryan Hall (1:01:15.960)

You want to do this.

Lex Fridman (1:01:16.800)

All the bad tribal things happen

Ryan Hall (1:01:19.040)

when there's more of me than you.

Lex Fridman (1:01:20.880)

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Ryan Hall (1:01:21.720)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Lex Fridman (1:01:23.320)

But then that's always the fundamental

Lex Fridman (1:01:24.440)

power imbalance though, right?

Lex Fridman (1:01:26.120)

Well, the interesting thing about the libertarian thinking,

Ryan Hall (1:01:28.520)

I guess I, I don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:01:30.000)

Those words are really.

Ryan Hall (1:01:30.840)

Maybe they're all charged, I know actually.

Lex Fridman (1:01:32.080)

Yeah, they're all charged.

Ryan Hall (1:01:33.000)

I may not scale up, but I mean,

Lex Fridman (1:01:34.760)

more like on a philosophical underpinning

Ryan Hall (1:01:36.320)

where you're like, yeah, basically,

Lex Fridman (1:01:37.480)

hey, you feel free to believe I'm a fool.

Lex Fridman (1:01:39.800)

And I mean, plenty of people do, I'm sure.

Lex Fridman (1:01:42.120)

But as long as you don't chase me down the hall

Lex Fridman (1:01:44.940)

and hit me in the back of the head with a textbook,

Lex Fridman (1:01:47.240)

what's the big deal?

Ryan Hall (1:01:48.200)

Yeah, so the libertarian viewpoint,

Lex Fridman (1:01:50.760)

which I probably espouse, like that's,

Ryan Hall (1:01:53.120)

I'm very much like freedom of the individual

Lex Fridman (1:01:57.320)

is very valuable and like leave others the fuck alone

Ryan Hall (1:02:00.720)

unless they're trying to hurt you.

Lex Fridman (1:02:02.960)

The thing is you also have to, I believe,

Ryan Hall (1:02:05.920)

put in the work of empathy of understanding

Lex Fridman (1:02:09.640)

what others, how, what leaving people

Ryan Hall (1:02:13.040)

the fuck alone means to others.

Lex Fridman (1:02:14.880)

But isn't that an interesting thing?

Ryan Hall (1:02:16.160)

If I believe in freedom of the individual

Lex Fridman (1:02:18.640)

and I take that, like all of these, like you said,

Ryan Hall (1:02:20.300)

you take them past just their first why question.

Lex Fridman (1:02:22.960)

You ask why, why, why, why, or how, how, how, how many times.

Ryan Hall (1:02:26.240)

Should that not extend to respect for you,

Lex Fridman (1:02:28.720)

respect for your position,

Ryan Hall (1:02:29.860)

respect for your individual lived experience,

Lex Fridman (1:02:32.120)

which could be grossly different than mine.

Ryan Hall (1:02:34.560)

Yeah, this is the problem with saying,

Lex Fridman (1:02:36.520)

I'm an individual, I'm not gonna bother you,

Ryan Hall (1:02:38.840)

you don't bother me.

Lex Fridman (1:02:40.360)

That's just like, that's not actionable.

Ryan Hall (1:02:43.180)

Because to be, to make it actionable,

Lex Fridman (1:02:45.680)

you have to think the why, why, why, why, why,

Ryan Hall (1:02:47.680)

you have to do the steps beyond.

Lex Fridman (1:02:49.560)

You think, what does that actually mean?

Ryan Hall (1:02:50.880)

That means understanding how even my very existence

Lex Fridman (1:02:55.920)

like hurts others.

Ryan Hall (1:02:57.320)

Because you have to understand that like,

Lex Fridman (1:03:00.120)

I'm not, you're not just sitting alone in a room.

Ryan Hall (1:03:02.220)

You're using like public transit,

Lex Fridman (1:03:04.880)

you're using the police force,

Ryan Hall (1:03:06.120)

you're using firefighters, you're using the,

Lex Fridman (1:03:09.080)

like you're using a lot of resources

Ryan Hall (1:03:11.160)

that are publicly shared.

Lex Fridman (1:03:12.900)

And some of those resources are unfairly distributed.

Ryan Hall (1:03:17.900)

Like we've agreed that we're gonna pay taxes

Lex Fridman (1:03:21.820)

and those taxes are gonna go towards

Ryan Hall (1:03:24.180)

building some kind of infrastructure.

Lex Fridman (1:03:25.980)

So that's already towards social.

Lex Fridman (1:03:27.740)

So you're not a real, you're not a real sort of,

Lex Fridman (1:03:31.140)

I talked to Michael Malice, like anarchist, right?

Ryan Hall (1:03:33.220)

Saying like basically, full, just leave me the fuck alone

Lex Fridman (1:03:37.780)

and I'm going to collaborate with whoever the hell I want.

Ryan Hall (1:03:40.860)

We're not, that's not the American society

Lex Fridman (1:03:43.900)

as it stands currently.

Ryan Hall (1:03:45.500)

We've agreed that there's going to be

Lex Fridman (1:03:47.900)

certain social institutions that we pay into.

Lex Fridman (1:03:51.700)

And some of the sort of discussions about race

Lex Fridman (1:03:55.100)

and all those kinds of things

Ryan Hall (1:03:57.780)

is about those institutions being institutionally unfair,

Lex Fridman (1:04:03.860)

whether it's race or gender, all those kinds of things.

Ryan Hall (1:04:05.980)

Listen, I have a bunch of criticisms

Lex Fridman (1:04:09.580)

of the way that conversation carries itself out,

Lex Fridman (1:04:11.980)

but the thing is, what's valuable is to actually listen

Lex Fridman (1:04:15.580)

and empathize.

Lex Fridman (1:04:16.860)

And that's not often talked about

Lex Fridman (1:04:20.500)

with the leave me the fuck alone mindset

Ryan Hall (1:04:23.340)

because you're, it doesn't have that little component

Lex Fridman (1:04:29.420)

which I think could be fundamental

Ryan Hall (1:04:31.580)

to the function of a society, which is like social.

Lex Fridman (1:04:34.220)

Like it's the, what is it, the Obama, you didn't build it

Ryan Hall (1:04:38.900)

or you didn't build it alone or whatever,

Lex Fridman (1:04:41.220)

however that goes.

Lex Fridman (1:04:42.060)

But basically we wouldn't be able to accomplish anything

Lex Fridman (1:04:45.580)

as individuals without the help of others.

Lex Fridman (1:04:48.140)

And to be able to then start to think,

Lex Fridman (1:04:50.460)

okay, so what is my duty?

Lex Fridman (1:04:54.940)

What is my responsibility to other human beings

Lex Fridman (1:04:57.580)

to be respectful, to be loving, to help them

Lex Fridman (1:05:01.140)

as part of this functioning society?

Lex Fridman (1:05:03.020)

That starts, that's actually a lot of work

Ryan Hall (1:05:04.860)

to start to think about that.

Lex Fridman (1:05:06.300)

Because then I have to like think,

Lex Fridman (1:05:07.460)

okay, Ryan, what's his life like?

Lex Fridman (1:05:09.580)

As a business owner during COVID, what's that like?

Lex Fridman (1:05:12.980)

And then he has, there's employees that run the gym.

Lex Fridman (1:05:16.340)

What's that like?

Lex Fridman (1:05:17.220)

What's that stress like?

Lex Fridman (1:05:18.620)

Or about the fighting and the injury and so on.

Lex Fridman (1:05:20.340)

What's that like?

Lex Fridman (1:05:21.180)

That empathy takes a lot of like compute cycles.

Lex Fridman (1:05:24.380)

And also a lot of energy, right?

Lex Fridman (1:05:26.740)

But I have to go through that computation

Ryan Hall (1:05:29.220)

if I want to be an individual that's like,

Lex Fridman (1:05:34.060)

doesn't hurt you.

Ryan Hall (1:05:35.860)

If I may, I guess like to come back to Muhammad Ali,

Lex Fridman (1:05:38.740)

one of the things he said is service to others

Ryan Hall (1:05:40.420)

is the rent that you pay for your,

Lex Fridman (1:05:43.620)

is the price you pay for your rent here on earth.

Lex Fridman (1:05:45.500)

And now one of the things that I think that I see

Lex Fridman (1:05:48.620)

as a result of the internet all the time

Ryan Hall (1:05:50.060)

is people talking about global giant problems,

Lex Fridman (1:05:53.740)

social problems that are society wide,

Ryan Hall (1:05:56.540)

that are massive, truly massive.

Lex Fridman (1:05:59.060)

And frankly, beyond the power of any of us to solve.

Ryan Hall (1:06:04.220)

That's certainly on an individual level.

Lex Fridman (1:06:06.060)

So I've discussed things with friends.

Ryan Hall (1:06:08.420)

Like my father's an environmental attorney,

Lex Fridman (1:06:10.260)

like has been for a long time

Lex Fridman (1:06:12.340)

and has been an engineer for a long time.

Lex Fridman (1:06:14.220)

And so I'm not, barely know anything,

Lex Fridman (1:06:17.340)

but I'm read in a little bit of various things.

Lex Fridman (1:06:19.460)

But climate change, oh my God,

Ryan Hall (1:06:21.980)

I'm so concerned about climate change.

Lex Fridman (1:06:23.820)

What am I supposed to do about climate change?

Ryan Hall (1:06:25.420)

I'll tell you what I can do is I can not litter.

Lex Fridman (1:06:27.540)

I can try to conserve energy where I can.

Ryan Hall (1:06:30.260)

I can do whatever I want.

Lex Fridman (1:06:31.340)

What can I personally do about some giant social problem

Lex Fridman (1:06:36.340)

that I didn't start and is out of my control?

Lex Fridman (1:06:40.260)

I'm like, well, I can be decent to the people around me.

Ryan Hall (1:06:42.780)

I can mention, I can demonstrate empathy

Lex Fridman (1:06:44.620)

and I can demonstrate consideration

Ryan Hall (1:06:46.180)

for the people in my circle.

Lex Fridman (1:06:47.780)

And to the extent that I can the people outside of my circle,

Lex Fridman (1:06:50.400)

but yelling at the trees over problems

Lex Fridman (1:06:53.440)

that are borderline cosmic, doesn't seem very productive.

Ryan Hall (1:06:57.220)

It just makes me feel like I'm cool and important

Lex Fridman (1:06:59.420)

because I'm talking about something,

Ryan Hall (1:07:00.740)

well, hundreds of years from now, the water will rise.

Lex Fridman (1:07:02.700)

Maybe it will, maybe it won't.

Ryan Hall (1:07:04.060)

It's completely on my head, I know nothing.

Lex Fridman (1:07:06.180)

But focusing on the problems that we can actually solve,

Ryan Hall (1:07:09.340)

it comes back to the same thing.

Lex Fridman (1:07:10.480)

I want to win a fight.

Ryan Hall (1:07:11.420)

I would love to win a fight.

Lex Fridman (1:07:13.300)

I can't control that.

Lex Fridman (1:07:14.180)

What I can do is I can control each individual step

Lex Fridman (1:07:16.320)

that I take around the ring

Lex Fridman (1:07:17.260)

and try to make the next correct move.

Lex Fridman (1:07:19.200)

I can't look, no, it gets people's,

Ryan Hall (1:07:22.420)

you know, they get all excited.

Lex Fridman (1:07:24.220)

You know, I'm trying to keep my language in check,

Lex Fridman (1:07:25.900)

but they get all excited thinking about, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:07:28.140)

problems that are like Superman

Ryan Hall (1:07:30.460)

couldn't solve these problems.

Lex Fridman (1:07:32.340)

Like you could be that powerful

Lex Fridman (1:07:34.140)

and you can't make all of the bad things go away,

Lex Fridman (1:07:36.500)

but you can absolutely change yourself.

Lex Fridman (1:07:38.380)

And I think a lot of the lessons that, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:07:40.540)

like the good lessons from religion that happened,

Ryan Hall (1:07:42.860)

the good lessons from the great men and women

Lex Fridman (1:07:44.620)

throughout history that we're inspired by,

Ryan Hall (1:07:47.340)

that talk about change starting with within,

Lex Fridman (1:07:50.020)

and, you know, again,

Ryan Hall (1:07:50.980)

treating the people around you decently

Lex Fridman (1:07:52.620)

and treating the people around you decently

Ryan Hall (1:07:53.980)

doesn't even necessarily mean the golden rule.

Lex Fridman (1:07:55.920)

Do unto others as you would like them to do to you.

Ryan Hall (1:07:57.940)

I go, well, maybe what I would like

Lex Fridman (1:08:00.220)

and what this person would like aren't the same thing.

Lex Fridman (1:08:02.060)

Well, how am I going to get to the bottom of that?

Lex Fridman (1:08:03.420)

Cause I could be attempting to be decent to this person.

Lex Fridman (1:08:05.780)

And by my standards, I am being decent,

Lex Fridman (1:08:07.300)

but maybe I'm missing the mark by theirs.

Ryan Hall (1:08:09.820)

Well, I can't possibly, if I just interacted with you,

Lex Fridman (1:08:13.140)

like it's like someone talking about

Ryan Hall (1:08:14.180)

some nonsense microaggression.

Lex Fridman (1:08:15.540)

You're like, so let me get this straight.

Ryan Hall (1:08:16.600)

I've never met you before.

Lex Fridman (1:08:17.440)

You never met me before.

Lex Fridman (1:08:18.700)

And you're interpreting some minor comment

Lex Fridman (1:08:20.720)

that I've made in the least charitable way possible.

Ryan Hall (1:08:24.240)

I'm not saying that you couldn't be annoyed,

Lex Fridman (1:08:25.980)

but your expectation for that level of consideration

Ryan Hall (1:08:29.140)

is you're going to be disappointed a lot.

Lex Fridman (1:08:31.960)

Now, if you, if we're someone that's in your life

Ryan Hall (1:08:34.540)

on a consistent basis and they're like,

Lex Fridman (1:08:35.980)

hey, I really don't appreciate what you're saying

Ryan Hall (1:08:37.300)

or what you're doing here.

Lex Fridman (1:08:38.140)

Do you realize that this is how I'm,

Ryan Hall (1:08:40.020)

this is how I'm perceiving you go, oh man, I'm so sorry.

Lex Fridman (1:08:42.340)

Of course I would hear what you have to say,

Lex Fridman (1:08:44.200)

but I guess trying to recognize that, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:08:47.580)

I guess my job is to treat others with dignity in general,

Lex Fridman (1:08:52.480)

but that level of the level of specificity that,

Lex Fridman (1:08:55.060)

that, that, that requires increases

Ryan Hall (1:08:56.940)

as it gets closer to you.

Lex Fridman (1:08:58.340)

And I have, as a person,

Ryan Hall (1:08:59.860)

I have a very finite amount of resources financially,

Lex Fridman (1:09:02.820)

intellectually, emotionally, physically.

Ryan Hall (1:09:05.680)

If I chuck, you know, 0.001% of it

Lex Fridman (1:09:08.480)

in every single different direction, what am I doing?

Ryan Hall (1:09:11.320)

It's like when people are like,

Lex Fridman (1:09:12.160)

oh, I care deeply about Tibet.

Lex Fridman (1:09:13.820)

I'm like, why aren't you over there?

Lex Fridman (1:09:15.180)

Go build a house, man.

Ryan Hall (1:09:16.460)

Get on a plane, go build a house.

Lex Fridman (1:09:18.580)

Oh, you don't want to do that.

Lex Fridman (1:09:19.520)

So really what you want to do is post on Facebook

Lex Fridman (1:09:21.500)

and, and, and accept high fives

Ryan Hall (1:09:23.160)

for how much of a good guy you are.

Lex Fridman (1:09:24.680)

I got an idea.

Ryan Hall (1:09:25.660)

Go help somebody in your neighborhood.

Lex Fridman (1:09:27.180)

Go be, go play with, go play with some kids.

Ryan Hall (1:09:29.420)

Go be a friend to someone that doesn't have a friend.

Lex Fridman (1:09:31.780)

Read a book, try to educate yourself.

Lex Fridman (1:09:33.740)

And so I guess to, to come back,

Lex Fridman (1:09:35.460)

it's all of these problems aren't solvable on a grand scale,

Lex Fridman (1:09:38.920)

but it's almost like by attempting to address them

Lex Fridman (1:09:41.740)

in our personal lives, we do better.

Lex Fridman (1:09:43.700)

But rather than a giant airing of the grievances

Lex Fridman (1:09:46.440)

on a, on a consistent basis,

Ryan Hall (1:09:48.300)

not that that isn't, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:09:49.340)

sometimes necessary and valuable,

Lex Fridman (1:09:51.300)

but after you air your grievances, you go,

Lex Fridman (1:09:53.740)

hey, how about we, we sort this out?

Lex Fridman (1:09:55.380)

What's the next step?

Lex Fridman (1:09:56.720)

And, and I guess, again,

Ryan Hall (1:09:58.220)

when we're trying to address it on a giant social level,

Lex Fridman (1:10:01.220)

it just seems unmanageable to me,

Ryan Hall (1:10:02.420)

even if you have the best of intentions.

Lex Fridman (1:10:04.580)

Yeah, I mean, but nevertheless, there's,

Ryan Hall (1:10:06.740)

there's a lot you can do on social networks.

Lex Fridman (1:10:09.340)

I mean, I enjoy tweeting and consuming Twitter.

Ryan Hall (1:10:12.980)

It's just, I apply the exact same principle

Lex Fridman (1:10:15.260)

that you just said, which is free will and discussion,

Ryan Hall (1:10:19.380)

which is like, I approach it in a way

Lex Fridman (1:10:23.500)

that I don't get stuck in this loop that's counterproductive.

Ryan Hall (1:10:27.480)

I try to do things that are productive.

Lex Fridman (1:10:30.660)

And like, it's just like you said,

Lex Fridman (1:10:32.540)

that's like, like what kind of things can I do in this world?

Lex Fridman (1:10:36.420)

Whether that's tweeting or building things,

Ryan Hall (1:10:38.620)

those are low effort tweeting,

Lex Fridman (1:10:41.040)

or actually building businesses

Ryan Hall (1:10:42.540)

or building ideas out as high effort.

Lex Fridman (1:10:45.700)

What can I do that will actually solve problems?

Lex Fridman (1:10:47.780)

And that's, that's the way I approach it.

Lex Fridman (1:10:49.780)

And I do wonder if it's possible to at scale,

Ryan Hall (1:10:53.020)

encourage each other to approach like social media

Lex Fridman (1:10:56.540)

and communication with fellow humans in that way.

Ryan Hall (1:10:58.980)

I don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:10:59.820)

How do you think that would be done?

Ryan Hall (1:11:00.940)

I guess, like to improve the,

Lex Fridman (1:11:02.140)

improve the quality of discourse, maybe.

Ryan Hall (1:11:03.860)

Like, or even like you said,

Lex Fridman (1:11:04.820)

the empathy or the decency of discourse.

Ryan Hall (1:11:07.100)

I think people should be, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:11:10.060)

incentivized, encouraged to do that.

Ryan Hall (1:11:12.100)

I think most of what's,

Lex Fridman (1:11:14.900)

we see happening on Twitter and Facebook and so on

Ryan Hall (1:11:18.260)

has to do with very small,

Lex Fridman (1:11:20.740)

very powerful implementation details.

Ryan Hall (1:11:25.060)

It goes down to like, what is the source

Lex Fridman (1:11:27.420)

of the dopamine rush, the like button,

Ryan Hall (1:11:30.500)

the sharing mechanisms,

Lex Fridman (1:11:32.500)

just even small tweaks in those can fix a lot.

Lex Fridman (1:11:35.460)

Really?

Lex Fridman (1:11:36.300)

I believe so.

Lex Fridman (1:11:37.140)

So like a lot, a lot of the stuff we see now

Lex Fridman (1:11:39.300)

is the result of just initial implementations

Ryan Hall (1:11:41.940)

of these systems that we didn't anticipate.

Lex Fridman (1:11:44.700)

So the modernization comes from engagement

Lex Fridman (1:11:49.220)

and the tools we have is clicking like and sharing.

Lex Fridman (1:11:54.060)

It was not always obvious.

Ryan Hall (1:11:55.740)

It was not obvious from the beginning.

Lex Fridman (1:11:57.180)

It wasn't obvious while Twitter and Facebook grew

Ryan Hall (1:12:00.180)

that there's a big dopamine rush

Lex Fridman (1:12:01.860)

from getting more followers and likes and shares.

Lex Fridman (1:12:05.180)

So we've gotten addicted to this feeling

Lex Fridman (1:12:06.980)

like how many people are commenting,

Lex Fridman (1:12:08.300)

how many people are saying, like clicking like and so on.

Lex Fridman (1:12:12.100)

So that's that dopamine rush.

Lex Fridman (1:12:13.420)

So we want to say the thing that will get the most likes

Lex Fridman (1:12:16.340)

and like unmasked in society.

Lex Fridman (1:12:19.900)

And then the other thing that was expected

Lex Fridman (1:12:22.140)

is the controversial, the divisive will get the most likes.

Lex Fridman (1:12:25.780)

So it had to do with the initial mechanisms

Lex Fridman (1:12:28.780)

of likes and shares resulting in an outcome

Ryan Hall (1:12:32.020)

that was unpredicted, which is huge amounts of division

Lex Fridman (1:12:35.740)

irrespective of like any of the basics of human connection

Ryan Hall (1:12:41.380)

that we've actually all come to understand

Lex Fridman (1:12:43.380)

that society is valuable at the individual level

Ryan Hall (1:12:46.500)

like we're saying, but unmasked what results

Lex Fridman (1:12:49.900)

is like you throw all that out

Lex Fridman (1:12:51.460)

and it's all just divisive at scale discourse.

Lex Fridman (1:12:57.820)

I think it could be fixed by incentivizing personal growth

Ryan Hall (1:13:02.100)

like incentivizing you to challenge yourself

Lex Fridman (1:13:05.380)

to grows individual and most importantly

Ryan Hall (1:13:08.780)

to be happy at the end of the day.

Lex Fridman (1:13:11.460)

So like incentivize you feeling good

Ryan Hall (1:13:16.460)

in a way that's long lasting longterm.

Lex Fridman (1:13:21.820)

I think what makes people actually feel good

Ryan Hall (1:13:24.260)

is being kind to others longterm.

Lex Fridman (1:13:27.540)

In the short term what feels good is getting a lot of likes.

Lex Fridman (1:13:31.260)

And I think those are just different incentives

Lex Fridman (1:13:34.660)

that if implemented correctly

Ryan Hall (1:13:36.540)

you can just build social networks

Lex Fridman (1:13:37.960)

that would do much better.

Lex Fridman (1:13:38.900)

So do you think it comes from a structural perspective?

Lex Fridman (1:13:41.060)

I guess at what point does you mention like

Ryan Hall (1:13:42.820)

you mentioned free will and also you mentioned

Lex Fridman (1:13:44.820)

feeling good and again working hard.

Lex Fridman (1:13:47.460)

I know that you have the, I guess the, was it a race or?

Lex Fridman (1:13:51.700)

No, it's the Goggins thing.

Ryan Hall (1:13:54.420)

It's four by four by 48 challenge

Lex Fridman (1:13:57.460)

where you run four miles every four hours for two days.

Ryan Hall (1:14:00.620)

That's awesome.

Lex Fridman (1:14:01.460)

Yeah, it's a bunch of, the challenge of it

Ryan Hall (1:14:05.740)

isn't just the running, the running is very tough

Lex Fridman (1:14:07.780)

but it's mostly the sleep deprivation

Ryan Hall (1:14:09.860)

because you're just training every four hours.

Lex Fridman (1:14:11.780)

But it's a struggle, right?

Lex Fridman (1:14:13.340)

But the struggle gives meaning.

Lex Fridman (1:14:14.860)

And ultimately I guess so how can we,

Ryan Hall (1:14:17.540)

because you mentioned like you said adjusting things

Lex Fridman (1:14:19.260)

on like a, I guess like a programming level almost,

Ryan Hall (1:14:22.940)

based programming level so that the interface

Lex Fridman (1:14:24.620)

is different for the user.

Lex Fridman (1:14:25.740)

But at what point does the user have a responsibility

Lex Fridman (1:14:28.620)

to as a man or a woman or a person

Lex Fridman (1:14:31.400)

to just behave more decently?

Lex Fridman (1:14:34.300)

How can we I guess utilize, what can we do?

Ryan Hall (1:14:37.420)

It seems like our society is so grossly missing

Lex Fridman (1:14:40.960)

like a Martin Luther King right now,

Ryan Hall (1:14:42.360)

like the great inspiring characters

Lex Fridman (1:14:44.540)

throughout American history, throughout world history.

Lex Fridman (1:14:46.940)

Where are the great leaders?

Lex Fridman (1:14:48.540)

So leadership is part of it, but that's definitely,

Ryan Hall (1:14:51.800)

where are the great leaders is a very good question.

Lex Fridman (1:14:53.740)

That's more of a question of our political systems

Lex Fridman (1:14:56.780)

why they're not pushing forward the great leaders.

Lex Fridman (1:14:58.940)

But there's also just, okay,

Ryan Hall (1:15:02.780)

there's some just basic engineering shit

Lex Fridman (1:15:05.460)

which is when you and I, when you Ryan and I

Ryan Hall (1:15:10.020)

are in a room alone and we're talking,

Lex Fridman (1:15:13.100)

even if we're strangers, the incentives

Ryan Hall (1:15:15.660)

are for us to get along.

Lex Fridman (1:15:17.780)

Like just when we're together in person,

Ryan Hall (1:15:20.420)

that's what I'm saying.

Lex Fridman (1:15:21.260)

I'm not even saying some kind of profound.

Lex Fridman (1:15:22.700)

But when you remove that.

Lex Fridman (1:15:23.780)

When we remove that, the implementation

Ryan Hall (1:15:26.700)

of social networks as they stand right now

Lex Fridman (1:15:30.500)

in the digital space, a very different set of incentives.

Ryan Hall (1:15:33.920)

It's more fun to destroy others, to be shitty to others.

Lex Fridman (1:15:38.100)

And it becomes this endless loop, like you were saying,

Ryan Hall (1:15:43.620)

that's ultimately destructive and not productive.

Lex Fridman (1:15:45.720)

And I think it has to do with just the interfaces

Ryan Hall (1:15:49.480)

of making it feel good to be nice to others.

Lex Fridman (1:15:54.420)

Because currently it doesn't feel nearly as good

Ryan Hall (1:15:58.220)

to be nice to others on the internet.

Lex Fridman (1:16:01.060)

And it doesn't feel nearly as bad as it does in real life

Ryan Hall (1:16:05.800)

to be shitty to others on the internet.

Lex Fridman (1:16:07.520)

So the incentives are just wrong.

Ryan Hall (1:16:09.380)

I think there is a technology solution to this,

Lex Fridman (1:16:13.300)

or at least a solution to improve

Ryan Hall (1:16:15.820)

this communication mechanism.

Lex Fridman (1:16:17.820)

It's not obvious how.

Ryan Hall (1:16:19.020)

I have a bunch of sort of more detailed ideas,

Lex Fridman (1:16:20.780)

but this is fascinating because I've gotten a chance

Ryan Hall (1:16:24.540)

to talk to Jack Dorsey quite a bit.

Lex Fridman (1:16:26.260)

He's the CEO of Twitter.

Lex Fridman (1:16:27.820)

And he is legitimately has, in this conversation,

Lex Fridman (1:16:34.340)

he would agree with everything.

Lex Fridman (1:16:35.780)

And he's a good human being,

Lex Fridman (1:16:38.620)

and he has a lot of really good ideas how to improve things.

Ryan Hall (1:16:41.140)

The question when you're a captain of a ship,

Lex Fridman (1:16:44.220)

whether it's a question whether a CEO is even a captain,

Lex Fridman (1:16:48.020)

how much can you actually steer that ship

Lex Fridman (1:16:49.960)

once it's gotten large enough?

Ryan Hall (1:16:51.380)

There's so much momentum, there's so many users,

Lex Fridman (1:16:53.440)

there's so many people who are marketing and PR and lawyers.

Ryan Hall (1:16:57.140)

It's very difficult to change things.

Lex Fridman (1:16:59.220)

Is it difficult because of the fallout,

Ryan Hall (1:17:01.740)

or is it difficult because it's actually

Lex Fridman (1:17:03.220)

like literally out of this power?

Lex Fridman (1:17:05.860)

So power is weird when you have a large organization.

Lex Fridman (1:17:09.260)

This is why the great leaders,

Ryan Hall (1:17:11.340)

this is what great leaders do,

Lex Fridman (1:17:12.780)

whether it's presidents or leaders of companies.

Ryan Hall (1:17:15.500)

Steve Jobs, I would argue Musk is that way,

Lex Fridman (1:17:18.420)

is to walk into a room full of people

Ryan Hall (1:17:20.740)

who don't want you to create drama.

Lex Fridman (1:17:23.220)

It's weird, man.

Ryan Hall (1:17:24.980)

When people just kind of want to be nice,

Lex Fridman (1:17:28.460)

the niceness creates momentum and nobody wants to,

Ryan Hall (1:17:32.140)

it's the systems thing.

Lex Fridman (1:17:33.260)

Everybody just behaves in the way

Ryan Hall (1:17:34.660)

they were previously behaving

Lex Fridman (1:17:36.600)

in the way they're supposed to behave,

Lex Fridman (1:17:38.660)

and nobody wants to raise a fuss.

Lex Fridman (1:17:40.760)

It takes a great man or woman leader to step in and say,

Lex Fridman (1:17:45.300)

what we've been doing is bullshit.

Lex Fridman (1:17:48.380)

Okay, you're fired, you're cool.

Lex Fridman (1:17:50.780)

What is it that?

Lex Fridman (1:17:51.820)

I'm out.

Ryan Hall (1:17:53.140)

I think you have to create constant revolutions

Lex Fridman (1:17:56.920)

within a company that's very, very difficult to do.

Ryan Hall (1:17:59.780)

Structurally and psychologically, it's very difficult to do,

Lex Fridman (1:18:03.020)

to be able to sort of, yeah,

Ryan Hall (1:18:05.860)

to constantly challenge the way things have been done

Lex Fridman (1:18:08.420)

in the past, which is why another way it's often done

Ryan Hall (1:18:13.300)

is a startup, like a small company,

Lex Fridman (1:18:15.380)

basically a small company becomes really successful

Lex Fridman (1:18:18.300)

and then no longer can turn the ship,

Lex Fridman (1:18:20.660)

so a new startup comes along, a new competitor

Ryan Hall (1:18:23.540)

that then challenges the big ship,

Lex Fridman (1:18:25.460)

and then that starts out the winner.

Ryan Hall (1:18:27.180)

That's like Google came to be,

Lex Fridman (1:18:28.980)

so Twitter came to be, and Facebook, and so on.

Lex Fridman (1:18:31.920)

And Apple has, that was the dream of Steve Jobs

Lex Fridman (1:18:36.780)

is it would succeed for many decades, for like centuries.

Ryan Hall (1:18:40.820)

That was the idea that you would keep creating revolutions,

Lex Fridman (1:18:44.460)

and under Steve Jobs, Apple successfully pivoted

Ryan Hall (1:18:48.660)

a bunch of times, just like reinvented themselves,

Lex Fridman (1:18:51.640)

which is very difficult to do.

Ryan Hall (1:18:53.340)

Because I mean, I've heard, at least I don't know

Lex Fridman (1:18:54.780)

if this is accurate, because I wouldn't know anything,

Lex Fridman (1:18:56.320)

but I've heard plenty of people complain about Steve Jobs.

Lex Fridman (1:18:58.900)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:18:59.740)

But in reality, the reason that all of these amazing things

Lex Fridman (1:19:03.100)

were done was because this person was willing to,

Ryan Hall (1:19:05.220)

well obviously brilliant, and then also willing

Lex Fridman (1:19:06.640)

to rattle everyone's cage periodically

Lex Fridman (1:19:09.840)

and say, hey, what's going on is not what we need

Lex Fridman (1:19:12.140)

to be doing.

Ryan Hall (1:19:13.140)

That's a really interesting thing.

Lex Fridman (1:19:14.380)

So he would rattle the cage, but he would also,

Ryan Hall (1:19:17.740)

I don't know if those are intricately connected

Lex Fridman (1:19:20.980)

or always have to be connected,

Lex Fridman (1:19:22.300)

but he would just be a dick.

Lex Fridman (1:19:24.580)

So maybe by his standard, I am lazy and worthless.

Lex Fridman (1:19:28.420)

Well, he would say that to you, right?

Lex Fridman (1:19:29.860)

Is he being a dick though, if by his standard,

Ryan Hall (1:19:32.060)

I mean, again, it's like everyone's stupid

Lex Fridman (1:19:33.680)

compared to somebody.

Ryan Hall (1:19:34.960)

You know, I guess.

Lex Fridman (1:19:36.220)

But, so you apparently are able to take that kind of thing.

Ryan Hall (1:19:41.460)

Sometimes you just, there's ways to cross the line.

Lex Fridman (1:19:46.620)

And I mean, this is, okay, the fascinating thing

Ryan Hall (1:19:49.820)

about being a leader, especially a leader of companies,

Lex Fridman (1:19:53.580)

is it's a people problem.

Lex Fridman (1:19:55.520)

So each individual in a room, so as a leader,

Lex Fridman (1:19:59.140)

you're only really interacting with a small number

Ryan Hall (1:20:01.380)

of people because there are leaders

Lex Fridman (1:20:02.540)

of other smaller groups and so on.

Lex Fridman (1:20:04.400)

But each of those individuals in the room

Lex Fridman (1:20:07.220)

have their own different psychology.

Ryan Hall (1:20:09.580)

Some like to be pushed to the limit.

Lex Fridman (1:20:11.260)

Some like to be screamed at.

Ryan Hall (1:20:14.580)

Some are very soft spoken and almost afraid to speak.

Lex Fridman (1:20:18.900)

And they have to be, you have to hear them out.

Ryan Hall (1:20:23.900)

Like there's a, and those could be all superstars.

Lex Fridman (1:20:27.380)

We're not talking about like the C students.

Ryan Hall (1:20:29.460)

We're talking about the A plus students.

Lex Fridman (1:20:31.080)

Well, it's funny that, yeah, but the thing to,

Ryan Hall (1:20:32.980)

the skill to manage all of those people

Lex Fridman (1:20:34.700)

is completely separate from the skill to innovate something.

Ryan Hall (1:20:37.900)

I mean, not that they're not connected,

Lex Fridman (1:20:39.160)

but it's funny how it's, it's almost like, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:20:41.380)

why do we have shitty representatives?

Lex Fridman (1:20:44.340)

Well, I mean, the thing that you do to get elected

Ryan Hall (1:20:46.700)

has nothing to do with governance.

Lex Fridman (1:20:48.100)

Yes.

Ryan Hall (1:20:49.180)

Well, that's exactly it.

Lex Fridman (1:20:50.020)

But the great leaders have to have both skills.

Lex Fridman (1:20:52.740)

So like you have to have the boldness of,

Lex Fridman (1:20:56.260)

if you look at the great presidents through history,

Ryan Hall (1:20:59.540)

usually it's in a time of crisis is when they step up,

Lex Fridman (1:21:03.140)

but they basically say, okay, stop this old way

Ryan Hall (1:21:07.500)

that Congress works of this bickering,

Lex Fridman (1:21:10.340)

of this like compromise bullshit.

Ryan Hall (1:21:12.420)

Here's a huge plan that costs billions of dollars

Lex Fridman (1:21:15.260)

in today's age, trillions of dollars,

Ryan Hall (1:21:18.140)

no extra pork, no extra additions,

Lex Fridman (1:21:20.320)

just like, here's a clear plan.

Ryan Hall (1:21:22.820)

We're going to build the best road network

Lex Fridman (1:21:26.280)

the world has ever seen.

Ryan Hall (1:21:27.660)

We're going to build some huge infrastructure project.

Lex Fridman (1:21:30.040)

We're going to revolutionize internet.

Ryan Hall (1:21:32.240)

Oh, we're going to, for coronavirus,

Lex Fridman (1:21:34.600)

we're going to build the largest like testing facility

Ryan Hall (1:21:36.940)

the world has ever seen in terms of the,

Lex Fridman (1:21:38.820)

we're gonna get everybody tested several times a day,

Ryan Hall (1:21:42.160)

all those kinds of things, huge projects and say,

Lex Fridman (1:21:45.300)

fuck all this, the details that everybody's bickering about,

Ryan Hall (1:21:48.980)

we're going to give everybody $2,000,

Lex Fridman (1:21:51.460)

we can give everybody $3,000, like huge projects.

Lex Fridman (1:21:54.740)

And at the same time, so that's the boldness

Lex Fridman (1:21:56.740)

and the leadership and saying,

Ryan Hall (1:21:58.020)

throw out all the bullshit of the past.

Lex Fridman (1:22:01.180)

And at the same time, be able to get in the room

Ryan Hall (1:22:04.880)

with the leaders of both parties

Lex Fridman (1:22:06.360)

or for the powerful individuals

Lex Fridman (1:22:08.380)

and smooth talk the shit out of them

Lex Fridman (1:22:10.420)

in the way they need to be smooth talked to.

Lex Fridman (1:22:12.580)

So like both of those skills,

Lex Fridman (1:22:14.500)

it seems to be when they're combining one person,

Ryan Hall (1:22:16.460)

that creates great leaders.

Lex Fridman (1:22:19.060)

Musk appears to have that, Elon.

Ryan Hall (1:22:21.940)

I don't know if Steve Jobs, it's interesting.

Lex Fridman (1:22:25.420)

So the criticism of Steve and a little bit on Elon

Ryan Hall (1:22:28.180)

is he misses some of the human part,

Lex Fridman (1:22:31.620)

but maybe it's impossible to have a really,

Ryan Hall (1:22:35.200)

you have like Sadia Nadal, who's the CEO of Microsoft,

Lex Fridman (1:22:37.980)

you have, who's really good on the human side,

Ryan Hall (1:22:41.580)

really, really good on the human side,

Lex Fridman (1:22:43.020)

like everybody loves him.

Ryan Hall (1:22:44.860)

The CEO of Google and Alphabet is also the same way.

Lex Fridman (1:22:49.260)

So like, I don't know if it's possible to have both.

Ryan Hall (1:22:53.340)

You only get so many stat points.

Lex Fridman (1:22:54.860)

Yeah, you only get, in this RPG of life, yeah.

Ryan Hall (1:22:59.340)

You got very good at jujitsu very fast.

Lex Fridman (1:23:03.320)

So you went, I mean, you told the story of Blue Belt

Lex Fridman (1:23:05.540)

and so on, but you went to Black Belt really quickly

Lex Fridman (1:23:09.180)

and not just in terms of ranks,

Lex Fridman (1:23:10.740)

but in terms of just skill level.

Lex Fridman (1:23:12.760)

I mean, you didn't go to Black Belt nearly as fast

Ryan Hall (1:23:15.740)

as your skill set developed.

Lex Fridman (1:23:17.900)

You were like doing extremely well

Ryan Hall (1:23:19.660)

at a high level of competition.

Lex Fridman (1:23:21.520)

So you're a good person to ask,

Lex Fridman (1:23:24.220)

how does one get good at jujitsu?

Lex Fridman (1:23:26.700)

We talked about solving problems at the elite level,

Lex Fridman (1:23:29.160)

but when you're a beginner at the martial arts,

Lex Fridman (1:23:33.300)

how do you get good?

Lex Fridman (1:23:34.740)

How much training should you do?

Lex Fridman (1:23:36.420)

The very basic stuff, like how much training,

Lex Fridman (1:23:38.460)

how much drilling, and then the mental stuff,

Lex Fridman (1:23:40.980)

like where should your mind be?

Lex Fridman (1:23:44.980)

How should you approach it from a mental perspective too?

Lex Fridman (1:23:48.220)

I'll just tell you my perspective on this one.

Ryan Hall (1:23:49.820)

I guess I would say I feel step one,

Lex Fridman (1:23:52.340)

I feel lucky to have found a good training situation,

Ryan Hall (1:23:56.400)

particularly for the time in where I was at.

Lex Fridman (1:24:01.320)

And I drilled a ton.

Ryan Hall (1:24:04.060)

I drilled and drilled and drilled and drilled and drilled.

Lex Fridman (1:24:06.660)

And one thing that's really important to understand though,

Ryan Hall (1:24:10.420)

is that I was able to, in a relatively brief period of years,

Lex Fridman (1:24:15.820)

go from zero to reasonably good.

Lex Fridman (1:24:18.140)

But I think I probably crammed more hours

Lex Fridman (1:24:21.740)

in those small years than most people did training,

Ryan Hall (1:24:26.620)

let's say in two or three times the length.

Lex Fridman (1:24:28.560)

So it may masquerade as something else other than it is.

Ryan Hall (1:24:32.540)

I could say.

Lex Fridman (1:24:33.380)

So you have to put in the hours.

Ryan Hall (1:24:34.540)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:24:35.380)

There's no way around that.

Ryan Hall (1:24:36.200)

I think so.

Lex Fridman (1:24:37.040)

But what did you put in those hours?

Lex Fridman (1:24:38.020)

So when you say drilling, can you break that apart

Lex Fridman (1:24:40.500)

a little bit?

Ryan Hall (1:24:41.340)

Sure.

Lex Fridman (1:24:42.160)

What does drilling look like?

Lex Fridman (1:24:43.000)

Is there any recommendations you can put in?

Lex Fridman (1:24:44.040)

Absolutely.

Ryan Hall (1:24:44.880)

Step one, I would say your choices matter.

Lex Fridman (1:24:47.300)

I think one of the really important things

Ryan Hall (1:24:49.080)

that I think we should consider about jiu jitsu

Lex Fridman (1:24:50.900)

is that there's a lot of junk in the system right now.

Ryan Hall (1:24:52.740)

It's like jiu jitsu has exploded in terms of

Lex Fridman (1:24:56.180)

the number of positions, techniques, strategies,

Ryan Hall (1:24:58.320)

this, that, rule sets.

Lex Fridman (1:24:59.980)

That's really cool on the one hand.

Ryan Hall (1:25:01.500)

On the other hand, there's probably a just metric shit ton

Lex Fridman (1:25:05.860)

of suboptimal things that are out there

Ryan Hall (1:25:08.620)

that are being taught.

Lex Fridman (1:25:11.060)

Myself included, I've taught things that are looking back

Ryan Hall (1:25:13.260)

five years, three years, two years, one year,

Lex Fridman (1:25:14.780)

where I'm like, oh, I would not do it like that anymore.

Ryan Hall (1:25:16.900)

Straight up, sometimes I wouldn't do it like that.

Lex Fridman (1:25:18.460)

Other times I would literally never do

Ryan Hall (1:25:20.460)

even that particular movement.

Lex Fridman (1:25:22.760)

I don't think the shrimp is a real move.

Ryan Hall (1:25:25.460)

It's a giant spiel and seizure to show in person.

Lex Fridman (1:25:28.820)

But long story short, there's a lot of things

Ryan Hall (1:25:30.260)

that we think of as fundamental

Lex Fridman (1:25:32.020)

that I think that are really pretty negative.

Lex Fridman (1:25:35.320)

And also, you know.

Lex Fridman (1:25:36.700)

That's heresy in jiu jitsu.

Lex Fridman (1:25:37.980)

Isn't it?

Lex Fridman (1:25:38.820)

The shrimp.

Ryan Hall (1:25:39.640)

Exactly.

Lex Fridman (1:25:40.480)

Is like the holy, we all worship the shrimp.

Ryan Hall (1:25:42.500)

We love the shrimp.

Lex Fridman (1:25:43.540)

We love the shrimp.

Ryan Hall (1:25:45.020)

For people who don't do jiu jitsu, and you should,

Lex Fridman (1:25:47.900)

the shrimp is you scoot your butt away from your opponent.

Ryan Hall (1:25:53.940)

Yeah, in a really, it's like a really athletic

Lex Fridman (1:25:56.780)

looking position where you look like someone

Ryan Hall (1:25:58.980)

that's trying to stick their butt out on Instagram,

Lex Fridman (1:26:00.980)

and then you push your hands away,

Lex Fridman (1:26:02.380)

and you expose your face,

Lex Fridman (1:26:04.180)

and then you lay on your side

Ryan Hall (1:26:05.980)

because someone told you to do that.

Lex Fridman (1:26:09.380)

And you look like a, I guess you look like a shrimp.

Ryan Hall (1:26:12.720)

Yeah, it's like that time that someone really credible

Lex Fridman (1:26:15.600)

told me to drink unleaded gasoline,

Lex Fridman (1:26:17.100)

and I did it for a while.

Lex Fridman (1:26:18.260)

And then it got to the point in my life

Ryan Hall (1:26:20.420)

where the next best, the thing that I needed to do

Lex Fridman (1:26:22.620)

to really improve my life was stop drinking

Ryan Hall (1:26:24.740)

unleaded gasoline.

Lex Fridman (1:26:26.500)

And I would say that there's a lot of stuff

Ryan Hall (1:26:29.000)

that's in there that step one is like it's junk.

Lex Fridman (1:26:33.060)

It's actual junk.

Lex Fridman (1:26:34.140)

And it's not only will it waste your time,

Lex Fridman (1:26:37.600)

it will straight up, it will be like an albatross

Ryan Hall (1:26:41.020)

hanging on you because it affects how you think

Lex Fridman (1:26:43.580)

about things going forward.

Lex Fridman (1:26:44.620)

So although it was, it's funny,

Lex Fridman (1:26:47.900)

like the operating assumptions that we work under

Ryan Hall (1:26:51.820)

have a huge, huge, huge influence.

Lex Fridman (1:26:53.580)

You mentioned like growing up in the United States

Ryan Hall (1:26:55.240)

or this being a capitalist society, like woo, all right.

Lex Fridman (1:26:58.140)

Now, of course I think that,

Ryan Hall (1:26:59.140)

I don't really know any different otherwise.

Lex Fridman (1:27:00.860)

And I think that a lot of times people go,

Ryan Hall (1:27:02.300)

oh, communism is better.

Lex Fridman (1:27:03.560)

I'm like, haven't seen it.

Ryan Hall (1:27:04.940)

I haven't read any books about it being better,

Lex Fridman (1:27:06.780)

but it's possible.

Ryan Hall (1:27:08.020)

I mean, I haven't experienced it much myself either.

Lex Fridman (1:27:10.660)

So I can't dismiss it outright,

Lex Fridman (1:27:12.500)

but I guess I would say it's a fundamentally

Lex Fridman (1:27:14.300)

different operating system underpinning

Lex Fridman (1:27:17.140)

and all of my choices, all of,

Lex Fridman (1:27:18.940)

if I honestly believed in that thing,

Ryan Hall (1:27:21.320)

many of my choices on a moment by moment,

Lex Fridman (1:27:23.740)

on a day by day, and certainly on a lifetime basis

Ryan Hall (1:27:26.100)

would be very different.

Lex Fridman (1:27:27.100)

So I would say that it's tough when you're young

Ryan Hall (1:27:31.020)

in the martial arts.

Lex Fridman (1:27:32.020)

And I mean, all of us are always trying to do

Ryan Hall (1:27:33.300)

our best to learn.

Lex Fridman (1:27:34.140)

But when you're young in the martial arts,

Ryan Hall (1:27:35.260)

you always go, if you're a reasonable guy,

Lex Fridman (1:27:37.020)

what do they, what do they call it?

Ryan Hall (1:27:37.860)

Like Dunning, Kruger, Amnesia.

Lex Fridman (1:27:38.740)

I can't remember if this is the right one,

Lex Fridman (1:27:39.620)

but basically you go like, oh, I know what I'm doing here.

Lex Fridman (1:27:42.820)

So I can say that's not right.

Lex Fridman (1:27:44.080)

But then I read a news story about baseball

Lex Fridman (1:27:46.340)

and I don't know anything about baseball, sounds credible.

Lex Fridman (1:27:48.120)

And it's bullshit, but I can't call bullshit.

Lex Fridman (1:27:50.980)

If you're a reasonable person,

Ryan Hall (1:27:51.820)

you can't call bullshit on things that you don't understand.

Lex Fridman (1:27:53.460)

Even if you suspect it's not right,

Ryan Hall (1:27:54.840)

you're like, well, I've got to reserve judgment.

Lex Fridman (1:27:56.980)

You never, ever, ever set aside your need

Lex Fridman (1:28:01.340)

and also obligation to understand why you were doing

Lex Fridman (1:28:04.220)

what you're doing.

Lex Fridman (1:28:05.060)

And don't ask why once, ask why over and over and over

Lex Fridman (1:28:07.900)

and over about the same thing.

Ryan Hall (1:28:09.380)

Oh, well, I want a shrimp.

Lex Fridman (1:28:10.500)

Why?

Ryan Hall (1:28:11.340)

To make space.

Lex Fridman (1:28:12.160)

Why do I want to make space?

Ryan Hall (1:28:13.000)

To get away from the guy.

Lex Fridman (1:28:13.840)

Well, why do I want to get away from him?

Ryan Hall (1:28:15.100)

Well, because he's dangerous.

Lex Fridman (1:28:16.060)

Well, why is he dangerous?

Lex Fridman (1:28:16.980)

And you can oftentimes get down to, wait a minute,

Lex Fridman (1:28:18.740)

I didn't even need to move.

Ryan Hall (1:28:20.060)

Three quarters of the time,

Lex Fridman (1:28:20.880)

you're actually acting in the other person's self interest.

Lex Fridman (1:28:23.060)

And I guess a lot of times I can't,

Lex Fridman (1:28:24.300)

this kind of goes beyond what we can demonstrate here.

Lex Fridman (1:28:27.380)

But I would just say trying to understand

Lex Fridman (1:28:29.940)

what my base operating assumptions are

Lex Fridman (1:28:31.860)

and consistently reevaluate them,

Lex Fridman (1:28:33.520)

which can be fricking exhausting, frankly,

Lex Fridman (1:28:35.260)

and also constantly confidence destroying.

Lex Fridman (1:28:37.340)

But you mentioned that I did pretty well

Ryan Hall (1:28:39.740)

relatively quickly.

Lex Fridman (1:28:42.140)

I started in 2004 and I was at Abu Dhabi ADCC

Ryan Hall (1:28:45.500)

for the first time as an alternate in 2007.

Lex Fridman (1:28:48.580)

I won a match there against a Black Belt world champion.

Lex Fridman (1:28:51.660)

And the fact, frankly, the fact that I was able

Lex Fridman (1:28:53.760)

to beat someone like that was neat,

Lex Fridman (1:28:55.260)

but at the same time says a little bit more

Lex Fridman (1:28:56.740)

about what jiu jitsu is and some of the issues with it

Ryan Hall (1:29:01.040)

than it does about how cool I am or was,

Lex Fridman (1:29:03.620)

because that shouldn't really happen

Ryan Hall (1:29:08.340)

when you think about it.

Lex Fridman (1:29:09.180)

You're like, okay, you're a champion at ostensibly

Ryan Hall (1:29:12.100)

a very high level of the sport.

Lex Fridman (1:29:14.240)

You enjoy a three inch, four inch height advantage

Lex Fridman (1:29:17.880)

and a 35 pound weight advantage, and you just got beat.

Lex Fridman (1:29:21.300)

Like that should not, I'm dead serious,

Ryan Hall (1:29:23.980)

that should not exist.

Lex Fridman (1:29:24.900)

If that happens, you're doing it wrong.

Lex Fridman (1:29:26.400)

Is it that I'm doing it right?

Lex Fridman (1:29:27.580)

Or is it that you're doing it wrong

Lex Fridman (1:29:28.740)

and there's enough variance in the way that you're doing it

Lex Fridman (1:29:31.940)

that you're allowing me to win?

Lex Fridman (1:29:34.220)

And now I did happen to win that with the 50, 50 heel hook,

Lex Fridman (1:29:36.460)

which was 50, 50, but basically,

Ryan Hall (1:29:40.340)

which was one of the early examples of like,

Lex Fridman (1:29:42.380)

hey guys, by the way, people can try to hurt your legs.

Lex Fridman (1:29:45.540)

And that was something like, we mentioned John Danaher,

Lex Fridman (1:29:47.540)

mentioned like, you know, myself, Dean Lister,

Ryan Hall (1:29:49.640)

a lot of the guys from the Henzo Gracie team

Lex Fridman (1:29:51.140)

that have had amazing success.

Ryan Hall (1:29:52.380)

They've gone and done great things.

Lex Fridman (1:29:54.380)

And you know, Craig Jones in the competitive grappling world,

Ryan Hall (1:29:57.020)

basically taking advantage of being very, very good

Lex Fridman (1:29:59.540)

in what they're doing, but also a glaring, glaring,

Ryan Hall (1:30:02.080)

glaring issue with the operating system of jiu jitsu,

Lex Fridman (1:30:04.760)

which was, you know, a huge vulnerability in the lower body

Lex Fridman (1:30:08.460)

and not only not attacking it,

Lex Fridman (1:30:09.980)

but having no idea how one does attack it,

Ryan Hall (1:30:12.300)

which means you can't understand

Lex Fridman (1:30:13.300)

how someone will assail you.

Lex Fridman (1:30:15.020)

So anyway, I guess to come back is if in the absence

Lex Fridman (1:30:20.140)

of knowing what to do, I try to polish what I've got.

Lex Fridman (1:30:22.540)

So if I've got a knife and I'm like,

Lex Fridman (1:30:23.580)

I don't know how to use them,

Ryan Hall (1:30:24.420)

I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna sharpen the edge

Lex Fridman (1:30:25.580)

and polish it and make sure that when I need

Ryan Hall (1:30:27.060)

to use this dang thing, I'll be able to do it.

Lex Fridman (1:30:29.240)

Because trying to put together a system

Ryan Hall (1:30:31.740)

when you don't have an idea of what's going on,

Lex Fridman (1:30:34.260)

a lot of times you end up making suboptimal choices,

Lex Fridman (1:30:37.260)

but as long as you're consistently reevaluating

Lex Fridman (1:30:39.300)

what you're doing, and that's something I've tried

Ryan Hall (1:30:40.580)

to do over time, over and over and over again,

Lex Fridman (1:30:42.660)

and try to seek out the most, the best,

Lex Fridman (1:30:47.060)

and also most articulate or insightful instructors

Lex Fridman (1:30:51.900)

or people of various levels, doesn't matter if they're

Ryan Hall (1:30:53.780)

well known or not, that could say, hey, Ryan,

Lex Fridman (1:30:55.640)

I think you should do this, I think you should do that.

Lex Fridman (1:30:57.460)

And I think all I've ever done in martial arts

Lex Fridman (1:30:59.940)

is try to treat people with respect, honestly,

Ryan Hall (1:31:02.280)

try to demonstrate appreciation for the many,

Lex Fridman (1:31:05.180)

many people who have helped me over time

Lex Fridman (1:31:06.860)

and be the type of person that they wanna train with.

Lex Fridman (1:31:09.140)

Not the type of, because we've all trained with people

Ryan Hall (1:31:10.840)

that make us think about beating the ever loving crap.

Lex Fridman (1:31:13.980)

I never wanted to be that guy.

Lex Fridman (1:31:15.220)

And I was basically saying like, if I train

Lex Fridman (1:31:16.900)

with a black belt when I'm a blue belt

Lex Fridman (1:31:18.400)

and this person enjoys training with me,

Lex Fridman (1:31:21.540)

that's in my interest.

Ryan Hall (1:31:22.380)

Selfishly, not only do I not want them to beat me up,

Lex Fridman (1:31:24.420)

but selfishly, I should, you mentioned being decent

Ryan Hall (1:31:26.500)

to other people, you wanna incentivize being decent

Lex Fridman (1:31:28.140)

to other people, right, with a structure

Ryan Hall (1:31:29.540)

of what you're doing.

Lex Fridman (1:31:30.940)

Selfishly, I'm incentivized to be a nice guy,

Ryan Hall (1:31:33.700)

even if I'm internally a scumbag,

Lex Fridman (1:31:35.540)

which I like to think that I'm not,

Lex Fridman (1:31:36.900)

but basically going like, hey, this guy's way more likely

Lex Fridman (1:31:39.580)

to help me or this person's way more likely to help me

Ryan Hall (1:31:41.420)

if I shake their hand, say thank you,

Lex Fridman (1:31:43.220)

I really appreciate you helping me out.

Lex Fridman (1:31:44.560)

And that thing that they tap me with four or five times,

Lex Fridman (1:31:47.960)

I'm gonna ask them about it.

Lex Fridman (1:31:49.260)

And then they don't have to tell me,

Lex Fridman (1:31:50.240)

they're under no obligation, but I'll say,

Lex Fridman (1:31:51.780)

and whether they tell me or don't tell me,

Lex Fridman (1:31:52.940)

thank you so much for your time, I really appreciate it.

Lex Fridman (1:31:54.860)

And that's it, you know?

Lex Fridman (1:31:57.300)

Okay, so to summarize, the way you brilliantly described,

Ryan Hall (1:32:00.860)

I just wanna make sure we're keeping track of this.

Lex Fridman (1:32:02.300)

I went all over the place.

Ryan Hall (1:32:03.540)

No, you didn't, you're pretty on point.

Lex Fridman (1:32:05.860)

But so the first thing is basically, which is difficult,

Ryan Hall (1:32:09.380)

I wonder if we can break it apart a little bit,

Lex Fridman (1:32:11.340)

is don't trust authority, essentially.

Ryan Hall (1:32:13.620)

Keep asking why.

Lex Fridman (1:32:14.780)

Be respectful without trusting authority, right?

Ryan Hall (1:32:16.660)

Right, which is, and then the second thing

Lex Fridman (1:32:18.300)

is be the kind of person that others like training with

Ryan Hall (1:32:21.540)

or like being around, sort of being a good friend.

Lex Fridman (1:32:27.220)

So so many people just enjoy being around.

Lex Fridman (1:32:28.980)

So one is completely, which is, yeah, you're right,

Lex Fridman (1:32:31.660)

it's attention, which is like completely disrespect

Ryan Hall (1:32:34.900)

the way that things are done.

Lex Fridman (1:32:37.940)

So asking why constantly.

Ryan Hall (1:32:40.100)

One of it is your own flaws and not understanding

Lex Fridman (1:32:42.660)

the fundamentals of what's being described.

Lex Fridman (1:32:44.740)

And then once you get good enough,

Lex Fridman (1:32:46.300)

not understanding, like going against the fact

Ryan Hall (1:32:51.320)

that the instructor doesn't understand.

Lex Fridman (1:32:53.820)

And my inability to understand what you're saying, though,

Ryan Hall (1:32:55.980)

doesn't invalidate it.

Lex Fridman (1:32:56.940)

And that's something like you mentioned,

Ryan Hall (1:32:58.020)

like me mentioning, keeping in mind our own flaws.

Lex Fridman (1:33:00.940)

And then also, again, the flaws that any of us have

Ryan Hall (1:33:02.980)

is the instructor, to your point.

Lex Fridman (1:33:04.340)

And I guess I can speak to being kind of weird.

Ryan Hall (1:33:07.020)

I don't, you know, I like to sit in the corner.

Lex Fridman (1:33:09.580)

But so everyone's a little bit different.

Ryan Hall (1:33:12.060)

Some people, you know, I wasn't terribly popular

Lex Fridman (1:33:13.980)

in high school.

Ryan Hall (1:33:14.820)

You know, like, I didn't like high school very much.

Lex Fridman (1:33:18.220)

But anyway, I would, not gonna be rude to people, though.

Ryan Hall (1:33:21.340)

I was never gonna bully anybody.

Lex Fridman (1:33:22.980)

If you said hello to me, I'd say hello back.

Ryan Hall (1:33:24.940)

I would hold the door for you if you walked by.

Lex Fridman (1:33:26.780)

You know, and I would just say, like simple things like that

Ryan Hall (1:33:29.740)

go a long, long, long way.

Lex Fridman (1:33:31.660)

And that actually takes us back to our social discussion

Lex Fridman (1:33:35.420)

where I'm like, oh man, how do I become great at jiu jitsu?

Lex Fridman (1:33:37.660)

It's like, well, I'll start by not pissing off this person

Ryan Hall (1:33:40.380)

who can beat the crap out of me

Lex Fridman (1:33:41.940)

and not disrespecting the person who is probably

Ryan Hall (1:33:45.340)

the closest thing to a font of knowledge

Lex Fridman (1:33:47.780)

at that time for me.

Ryan Hall (1:33:48.980)

So, and then recognizing that I should do that

Lex Fridman (1:33:52.300)

for its own virtue because it's the right thing to do

Lex Fridman (1:33:54.260)

and I should try to treat people decently.

Lex Fridman (1:33:55.700)

But beyond that, even selfishly,

Ryan Hall (1:33:57.980)

it's in my interest to do that.

Lex Fridman (1:33:59.500)

But see, the thing is, this is interesting,

Ryan Hall (1:34:02.460)

is there's a culture in martial arts,

Lex Fridman (1:34:06.500)

a culture that I like where the instructor,

Ryan Hall (1:34:08.860)

legitimately so, carries an aura of authority.

Lex Fridman (1:34:13.980)

And it's not comfortable to really ask why.

Ryan Hall (1:34:18.340)

I'm not, it's a skill to be able to have a discussion

Lex Fridman (1:34:22.740)

as a white belt or the black belt instructor

Lex Fridman (1:34:26.140)

of like, why is it done this way?

Lex Fridman (1:34:29.380)

Like, and saying why again.

Ryan Hall (1:34:32.700)

Like, I mean, it's a skill to show that you're actually

Lex Fridman (1:34:36.220)

a legitimately curious and passionate and compassionate

Ryan Hall (1:34:40.180)

student versus like, somebody who's just being

Lex Fridman (1:34:42.500)

an annoying dick who saw some stuff on YouTube.

Ryan Hall (1:34:45.220)

There's a line between, to walk there.

Lex Fridman (1:34:47.900)

I just wonder because like, it's the drilling thing.

Ryan Hall (1:34:52.420)

And, you know, I, for example, like in my,

Lex Fridman (1:34:57.580)

when I was coming out, there was so much emphasis

Ryan Hall (1:35:00.140)

placed on like, close guard, for example.

Lex Fridman (1:35:03.420)

And you might actually teach me now,

Ryan Hall (1:35:05.780)

I don't know, but to me it was like,

Lex Fridman (1:35:08.620)

why do I need to master the close guard?

Lex Fridman (1:35:12.580)

Like, why is the close guard on top or the bottom?

Lex Fridman (1:35:16.260)

But the bottom really, the fundamental basics of jiu jitsu.

Lex Fridman (1:35:20.260)

Who decided that?

Lex Fridman (1:35:21.300)

My body is not, my body says this is wrong.

Ryan Hall (1:35:25.060)

I'm like, this, like I have short legs,

Lex Fridman (1:35:28.100)

but it doesn't even matter the length of the legs.

Ryan Hall (1:35:30.220)

There's something about me that just,

Lex Fridman (1:35:31.900)

I don't understand how leverage here works

Ryan Hall (1:35:34.360)

for my particular body.

Lex Fridman (1:35:37.420)

Like, so it's just, it's a feel thing too.

Ryan Hall (1:35:40.900)

Like, it feels like in my basic understanding

Lex Fridman (1:35:45.060)

of leverage and movement and timing and so on,

Ryan Hall (1:35:47.980)

it feels like these certain, like butterfly guard,

Lex Fridman (1:35:50.220)

or even like half, basically every guard except close guard.

Ryan Hall (1:35:53.180)

I can play, I can dance.

Lex Fridman (1:35:56.260)

Close guard feels like you're shutting down

Ryan Hall (1:36:02.060)

like the play that I.

Lex Fridman (1:36:03.380)

Is that wrong?

Ryan Hall (1:36:04.380)

Or is that, make sure that's what you want

Lex Fridman (1:36:06.460)

because that's almost like an innate characteristic

Lex Fridman (1:36:08.660)

of this guard position, but it's not sold that way, right?

Lex Fridman (1:36:11.020)

It's like, hey, this is a good guard.

Ryan Hall (1:36:12.860)

It's like, hey man, here's a bow and arrow versus,

Lex Fridman (1:36:16.300)

and you know how to use this thing, right?

Ryan Hall (1:36:17.660)

Like make sure you're far away

Lex Fridman (1:36:19.500)

and like up on a hill or something.

Ryan Hall (1:36:21.140)

Cause you can take that bow and arrow,

Lex Fridman (1:36:22.060)

run up on something and try to use it.

Lex Fridman (1:36:24.660)

But if nobody told you not to do that

Lex Fridman (1:36:27.180)

and they told you it was foundational,

Ryan Hall (1:36:28.460)

it's very foundational, it's very important.

Lex Fridman (1:36:29.780)

To everything else too, right?

Ryan Hall (1:36:31.660)

That's back to the shrimping thing.

Lex Fridman (1:36:33.420)

How many things are we taught that even if it's not,

Ryan Hall (1:36:35.900)

let's say itself is not a garbage thing,

Lex Fridman (1:36:40.500)

might be effectively garbage.

Ryan Hall (1:36:42.020)

You could give me a Ferrari,

Lex Fridman (1:36:43.580)

but if I try to make it fly, it's not going to work.

Ryan Hall (1:36:46.860)

If you're like, here's a plane, here's another plane,

Lex Fridman (1:36:48.820)

here's another plane, here's another plane, here's a Ferrari.

Ryan Hall (1:36:50.780)

I'm like, oh, it must be a different type of plane.

Lex Fridman (1:36:52.620)

Like you could be forgiven for leap if we're going there,

Ryan Hall (1:36:55.020)

you know, like, oh, maybe the wings come out

Lex Fridman (1:36:56.260)

or you just go fast enough to take a bullet.

Ryan Hall (1:36:57.940)

You can make these crazy leaps in your mind.

Lex Fridman (1:36:59.740)

And people are doing that all the time.

Lex Fridman (1:37:02.540)

So if you don't provide the context for me,

Lex Fridman (1:37:05.140)

or worse yet, you provide improper context,

Lex Fridman (1:37:08.060)

like how much of a problem is that going to be?

Lex Fridman (1:37:10.940)

Well, I think the skill of the white belt should be,

Ryan Hall (1:37:14.340)

just be nice.

Lex Fridman (1:37:15.660)

But in the complicated human space of when your intention,

Ryan Hall (1:37:20.300)

at least in the big picture view, is good.

Lex Fridman (1:37:24.980)

The question is, it's not always when your intention is good,

Ryan Hall (1:37:28.740)

the actual implementation of it is good.

Lex Fridman (1:37:32.780)

So you might be just almost,

Lex Fridman (1:37:34.540)

and that's much, it's not the case for you,

Lex Fridman (1:37:37.300)

it's much more the case for white belts.

Ryan Hall (1:37:39.260)

They don't even know, their intention might be good,

Lex Fridman (1:37:41.620)

but they don't know all the lines they're crossing,

Ryan Hall (1:37:43.940)

all the, so they're not actually able to like interpret

Lex Fridman (1:37:48.340)

all the ways in which they're being totally insensitive

Ryan Hall (1:37:51.940)

to the requests of others, like explicit requests of others.

Lex Fridman (1:37:55.100)

So your job as a beginner is to be a really good listener

Ryan Hall (1:37:59.660)

of those social cues.

Lex Fridman (1:38:01.260)

Well, it's like a visitor in a foreign country, right?

Ryan Hall (1:38:02.900)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:38:03.740)

Like you're a representative of people

Ryan Hall (1:38:04.820)

that look like you, people that talk like you,

Lex Fridman (1:38:06.660)

people that have your passport,

Lex Fridman (1:38:07.940)

and you're like, man, I'm going to go over here.

Lex Fridman (1:38:09.220)

Oh, I've got my foot up on my knee.

Ryan Hall (1:38:10.780)

Well, if I was in certain countries in the world,

Lex Fridman (1:38:12.020)

that's rude.

Ryan Hall (1:38:12.980)

I'm like, oh, I'm so sorry.

Lex Fridman (1:38:14.620)

But can you imagine if someone says,

Ryan Hall (1:38:15.740)

hey, I really appreciate if you take your foot off,

Lex Fridman (1:38:17.740)

that's pretty rude.

Lex Fridman (1:38:18.580)

And then I want to tell them, well, not where I'm from, man.

Lex Fridman (1:38:21.380)

I'm in your house.

Ryan Hall (1:38:22.380)

I better, again, I might go that direction,

Lex Fridman (1:38:24.660)

but let's say I could get away with that.

Ryan Hall (1:38:25.860)

Now I'm a bully.

Lex Fridman (1:38:27.020)

And if I can't get away with that,

Ryan Hall (1:38:28.540)

well, I'm about to maybe be on the wrong side of something.

Lex Fridman (1:38:30.820)

But I guess, like you said,

Ryan Hall (1:38:33.140)

if we have positive intention, that's fine.

Lex Fridman (1:38:34.700)

But I also have to recognize who I am.

Lex Fridman (1:38:36.020)

And I think that that's one thing that I tried to do

Lex Fridman (1:38:38.980)

and continue to try to do over time.

Ryan Hall (1:38:40.820)

Like we're, oh man, hi,

Lex Fridman (1:38:43.300)

I'm the one that's asking for a favor here.

Ryan Hall (1:38:45.180)

If I spar with Raymond Daniels,

Lex Fridman (1:38:46.580)

Raymond Daniels is doing me a favor.

Ryan Hall (1:38:48.460)

I ain't doing him a favor.

Lex Fridman (1:38:49.780)

Let's not get it twisted.

Lex Fridman (1:38:51.300)

So thank you so much for your time.

Lex Fridman (1:38:53.260)

I really appreciate it.

Lex Fridman (1:38:54.100)

And this is not like some effected nonsense.

Lex Fridman (1:38:56.140)

This is serious.

Ryan Hall (1:38:56.980)

I'm like, thank you.

Lex Fridman (1:38:57.820)

If I spar with Steven Thompson,

Ryan Hall (1:38:58.940)

I'm the one being done a favor.

Lex Fridman (1:39:00.060)

George St. Pierre takes his time to spar with me,

Ryan Hall (1:39:01.700)

which he has in the past and not even kill me,

Lex Fridman (1:39:04.060)

which is really, I appreciate that

Ryan Hall (1:39:05.540)

because that's why I can sit here.

Lex Fridman (1:39:07.860)

George is not a prop for me to get my rocks off

Ryan Hall (1:39:11.580)

or see what's going on.

Lex Fridman (1:39:12.620)

And also I'm going to do that

Lex Fridman (1:39:14.060)

and then expect him to just take it.

Lex Fridman (1:39:16.380)

And I've seen, he's a gentleman.

Ryan Hall (1:39:17.740)

I've seen people get nuts with George

Lex Fridman (1:39:19.140)

and have him just be like, he's a patient of a saint.

Ryan Hall (1:39:23.740)

I don't have that level of patience,

Lex Fridman (1:39:24.780)

but I would just say to come back,

Lex Fridman (1:39:26.620)

figuring out like, hey, so what role am I here?

Lex Fridman (1:39:28.980)

And that comes back to like,

Ryan Hall (1:39:30.100)

at least what I see people on the internet.

Lex Fridman (1:39:31.740)

Yeah, man, I have a beef with Joe Rogan.

Ryan Hall (1:39:33.660)

You're like, no, you don't, Ryan.

Lex Fridman (1:39:35.100)

You're some goof.

Ryan Hall (1:39:36.380)

I'm like, I'm some random dude.

Lex Fridman (1:39:37.660)

Joe, like people want to,

Ryan Hall (1:39:39.100)

they almost want to like elevate

Lex Fridman (1:39:40.340)

so that we can somehow be level with peers here.

Ryan Hall (1:39:42.900)

If I go into Feroz Zahabi's gym,

Lex Fridman (1:39:44.500)

I am not a peer of Feroz Zahabi.

Ryan Hall (1:39:45.860)

I am a student of TriStar.

Lex Fridman (1:39:47.260)

I'm a guest in the academy.

Lex Fridman (1:39:48.780)

And if Feroz asked me for something short of him,

Lex Fridman (1:39:51.180)

like telling me to try to do a triple backflip

Lex Fridman (1:39:53.380)

so I don't break my neck,

Lex Fridman (1:39:54.660)

the answer is yes, sir, I can do a free Feroz.

Ryan Hall (1:39:56.660)

No, man, in no words.

Lex Fridman (1:39:57.500)

And it's, and hopefully it should come with,

Ryan Hall (1:39:59.140)

I guess, a level of graciousness,

Lex Fridman (1:40:00.940)

but I guess that's kind of one of the things

Ryan Hall (1:40:02.340)

that I see nowadays with how accessible people are.

Lex Fridman (1:40:04.900)

Cause I grew up, you know, being a big,

Ryan Hall (1:40:06.420)

huge baseball sports fan of all kinds.

Lex Fridman (1:40:08.580)

I couldn't send Derek Jeter a message

Lex Fridman (1:40:10.980)

and much less have a possibility of a reply.

Lex Fridman (1:40:14.700)

And if I do, it's like, you know,

Ryan Hall (1:40:17.620)

I have people send me messages.

Lex Fridman (1:40:18.780)

It's very nice that people send me messages.

Ryan Hall (1:40:20.100)

Some people, again, and everyone,

Lex Fridman (1:40:21.540)

not everyone is coming from the same place,

Lex Fridman (1:40:23.580)

but I've had plenty of things that are like,

Lex Fridman (1:40:25.100)

yo, dude, I need you to do this for me.

Ryan Hall (1:40:26.900)

I'm like, well, I'll tell you what's never going to happen.

Lex Fridman (1:40:29.620)

That I have no idea who you are.

Lex Fridman (1:40:31.340)

And that was how I was addressed.

Lex Fridman (1:40:32.820)

And I don't need, oh man, you're the greatest one

Ryan Hall (1:40:34.860)

because that's weird and too, cause I'm not,

Lex Fridman (1:40:36.580)

but just, hey Ryan, how are you doing?

Ryan Hall (1:40:39.340)

Hey, do you think you could do the following

Lex Fridman (1:40:41.060)

if you get a second?

Ryan Hall (1:40:41.900)

I'm like, if I get a second, you're dang right I can.

Lex Fridman (1:40:43.620)

Why not? It's easy to ask.

Lex Fridman (1:40:44.980)

But it started with some level of politeness.

Lex Fridman (1:40:47.540)

And I guess like that's maybe being semi Southern,

Ryan Hall (1:40:50.340)

like I grew up in Virginia.

Lex Fridman (1:40:51.420)

Yes, sir. Yes, ma'm.

Ryan Hall (1:40:52.500)

Like that goes a long way.

Lex Fridman (1:40:54.260)

And there's all different kinds

Ryan Hall (1:40:55.300)

of implementations of politeness.

Lex Fridman (1:40:56.860)

I mean, most of the successful people I've met,

Ryan Hall (1:40:59.620)

it's been surprising to me how much of,

Lex Fridman (1:41:03.700)

you mentioned peers, like I could think of Joe Rogan.

Ryan Hall (1:41:08.500)

You mentioned Joe Rogan, but Elon Musk,

Lex Fridman (1:41:12.300)

they don't, like they almost treat me like I'm the superior.

Lex Fridman (1:41:17.700)

You know what I mean?

Lex Fridman (1:41:18.540)

Like it's not even, that's the politeness.

Ryan Hall (1:41:21.180)

Like, you know, that's the approach.

Lex Fridman (1:41:23.340)

The feeling of it is like, I'm the student,

Ryan Hall (1:41:25.180)

I'm the beginner, I'm like approaching the situation.

Lex Fridman (1:41:27.620)

Like it's almost like a method acting of like,

Ryan Hall (1:41:33.740)

you're better than me.

Lex Fridman (1:41:36.020)

And that's how I approach a lot of interactions.

Ryan Hall (1:41:38.180)

Like I have something to learn from this,

Lex Fridman (1:41:39.620)

even if it's like a young.

Lex Fridman (1:41:41.220)

Do you think that they're ungenuine?

Lex Fridman (1:41:42.800)

They're totally genuine.

Lex Fridman (1:41:44.380)

But isn't that a funny thing?

Lex Fridman (1:41:45.300)

Like in spite of who they are,

Ryan Hall (1:41:46.400)

they're incredibly genuine because they respect,

Lex Fridman (1:41:48.080)

correct me if I'm wrong, they respect you obviously

Ryan Hall (1:41:49.860)

for what you bring to the table.

Lex Fridman (1:41:50.700)

They also approach.

Ryan Hall (1:41:51.540)

No, no, they approach everybody like this.

Lex Fridman (1:41:52.360)

But that's all right.

Ryan Hall (1:41:53.200)

No, but I'm sure they respect for what you bring to the table.

Lex Fridman (1:41:54.820)

Beyond that though, they're treating you

Ryan Hall (1:41:56.300)

with dignity as a human being.

Lex Fridman (1:41:57.340)

Yeah, as a human being, that's right.

Lex Fridman (1:41:59.420)

And when they could probably get away

Lex Fridman (1:42:01.340)

with treating most people

Ryan Hall (1:42:02.340)

without a whole heck of a lot of dignity.

Lex Fridman (1:42:03.860)

And I guess what does that always say that like, you know,

Ryan Hall (1:42:05.500)

again, like you can always tell someone of quality

Lex Fridman (1:42:08.280)

because they treat the king and the janitor the same way.

Lex Fridman (1:42:11.760)

But that's what we're seeing a lot.

Lex Fridman (1:42:13.340)

Like, I guess I don't mean to like to nitpick,

Lex Fridman (1:42:16.020)

but that's where it would take issue, I guess a little bit,

Lex Fridman (1:42:18.220)

or disagree with the next.

Lex Fridman (1:42:19.060)

Are you gonna criticize with the internet again?

Lex Fridman (1:42:21.400)

I know.

Ryan Hall (1:42:22.240)

People on the internet.

Lex Fridman (1:42:23.620)

Old man yells at clouds.

Lex Fridman (1:42:25.260)

But anyway, but I guess what I mean is just like

Lex Fridman (1:42:30.040)

the way that people address each other

Ryan Hall (1:42:31.660)

because it's so casual now, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:42:33.700)

and it's great on the one hand, it's nice.

Ryan Hall (1:42:35.600)

On the other hand, you go, hey, I just, why can't do,

Lex Fridman (1:42:39.460)

am I somehow, am I worried about diminishing myself?

Ryan Hall (1:42:42.600)

It's like the way that I'm sure that people talk to like,

Lex Fridman (1:42:44.220)

talk to women sometimes.

Lex Fridman (1:42:45.720)

And words, what's up girl?

Lex Fridman (1:42:48.700)

I mean, she's a bitch.

Ryan Hall (1:42:49.620)

You know, versus like, how am I,

Lex Fridman (1:42:51.940)

that was supposed to get a good response?

Lex Fridman (1:42:53.860)

What about that was going to elicit a favorable response?

Lex Fridman (1:42:57.420)

You know, versus being anything, anything other than just,

Lex Fridman (1:43:01.060)

you know, man, what's going on?

Lex Fridman (1:43:02.200)

And I guess that, does that make any sense?

Ryan Hall (1:43:03.980)

It makes total sense.

Lex Fridman (1:43:04.820)

And that Southern thing that you're referring to,

Ryan Hall (1:43:06.740)

I feel like that's an important,

Lex Fridman (1:43:09.660)

that's an important part of human communication.

Ryan Hall (1:43:12.840)

Let me ask you this.

Lex Fridman (1:43:14.020)

Sure.

Ryan Hall (1:43:14.860)

You're a new back attacks instructional.

Lex Fridman (1:43:16.980)

First of all, awesome.

Ryan Hall (1:43:19.220)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:43:20.660)

Second of all, you drop a lot of fascinating insights

Ryan Hall (1:43:25.260)

in there, but you quote Galileo out of all people

Lex Fridman (1:43:28.700)

in saying that you can't teach a man anything.

Ryan Hall (1:43:31.220)

You can only help him find it within himself.

Lex Fridman (1:43:34.320)

So we talked about how to start in Jiu Jitsu.

Lex Fridman (1:43:39.780)

What about if we zoom out even more

Lex Fridman (1:43:41.740)

and how do you learn how to learn?

Lex Fridman (1:43:46.580)

How do you optimize the learning process?

Lex Fridman (1:43:49.560)

I don't know the answer to that,

Lex Fridman (1:43:51.600)

but I can tell you what I'd like to do.

Lex Fridman (1:43:52.760)

And I would say like, I can't step one.

Ryan Hall (1:43:54.800)

I don't, I'm not, maybe this is a little bit easier for me

Lex Fridman (1:43:57.180)

cause you know, I've never had a ton of friends, honestly.

Ryan Hall (1:43:59.820)

I've, you know, I've got my close friends

Lex Fridman (1:44:01.140)

and people that I know,

Lex Fridman (1:44:01.960)

but I've never had tons and tons of people.

Lex Fridman (1:44:04.120)

So I spent a lot of time, you know, thinking.

Lex Fridman (1:44:06.180)

And anyway, I can't, I can't control you.

Lex Fridman (1:44:10.580)

I can't control anybody else.

Ryan Hall (1:44:12.100)

I, you know, I, all I can,

Lex Fridman (1:44:17.460)

I want to take my, it's a Marcus Aurelius thing.

Ryan Hall (1:44:19.980)

It's like, you know, I guess the trick to life

Lex Fridman (1:44:21.380)

is figuring out what's in our control and what's not

Lex Fridman (1:44:23.500)

and focusing on things that are in our control, I guess.

Lex Fridman (1:44:25.900)

And so step one is figuring out both internally

Lex Fridman (1:44:29.820)

and then also out in the world as it pertains to Jiu Jitsu,

Lex Fridman (1:44:33.140)

what is actually in my control and what is not.

Ryan Hall (1:44:35.640)

Like passing someone's guard is not in your control.

Lex Fridman (1:44:37.700)

People think it is, it ain't.

Ryan Hall (1:44:39.240)

If I can't just do an activity and be unchecked,

Lex Fridman (1:44:43.440)

then it ain't in my control entirely.

Ryan Hall (1:44:46.680)

I can always breathe.

Lex Fridman (1:44:47.900)

I can always, you know, be calm.

Ryan Hall (1:44:51.600)

I can always, no matter whether I'm concerned

Lex Fridman (1:44:54.200)

or not concerned, have whatever you want to call it,

Ryan Hall (1:44:56.300)

nerves, you know, I can step forward across the line

Lex Fridman (1:44:59.280)

and say, I will, I will face the challenge ahead.

Ryan Hall (1:45:01.520)

That is all entirely, no one can stop me from doing that.

Lex Fridman (1:45:03.740)

That's entirely in my control.

Lex Fridman (1:45:04.780)

And that's why I know that every single time

Lex Fridman (1:45:06.840)

that I walk into the ring,

Ryan Hall (1:45:07.820)

I'll walk in and out of there with my head held high

Lex Fridman (1:45:09.700)

because there's, I will fight with everything that I have.

Ryan Hall (1:45:13.360)

I can't promise that I'll win.

Lex Fridman (1:45:15.060)

I would say I take that same first principles.

Ryan Hall (1:45:17.820)

You mentioned last time we talked, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:45:19.700)

with Elon and the importance of that and going,

Lex Fridman (1:45:23.060)

what are the first principles?

Lex Fridman (1:45:24.580)

And I guess to come back a lot of times, in my opinion,

Ryan Hall (1:45:26.700)

the things that people think are the basics

Lex Fridman (1:45:28.340)

are not the basics.

Ryan Hall (1:45:30.260)

You can't learn.

Lex Fridman (1:45:31.460)

If you think you're reasoning for first principles,

Lex Fridman (1:45:33.340)

but you're actually like level six,

Lex Fridman (1:45:35.180)

you're actually like layers up,

Ryan Hall (1:45:37.220)

you're making so many,

Lex Fridman (1:45:38.420)

there's so many baked in assumptions to what's going on

Ryan Hall (1:45:40.740)

that you're gonna struggle to understand

Lex Fridman (1:45:42.260)

why anything is actually happening,

Ryan Hall (1:45:44.300)

internally, externally, you name it.

Lex Fridman (1:45:46.260)

So I guess what I would start when it comes to learning

Ryan Hall (1:45:48.780)

is first principles and trying to understand

Lex Fridman (1:45:50.540)

what's going on, but then also simple things first.

Ryan Hall (1:45:53.420)

I can control my posture.

Lex Fridman (1:45:56.220)

I can control my breathing.

Ryan Hall (1:45:58.580)

No one can stop me from doing that.

Lex Fridman (1:45:59.900)

I can control where I place my frames.

Ryan Hall (1:46:01.780)

I can control where I place my limbs.

Lex Fridman (1:46:03.580)

I can move my feet.

Ryan Hall (1:46:05.500)

I can develop the ability to do these things

Lex Fridman (1:46:07.180)

better, of course.

Lex Fridman (1:46:08.020)

And I do that through practice, through drilling,

Lex Fridman (1:46:09.540)

through watching people.

Ryan Hall (1:46:10.500)

I've been incredibly fortunate in my time in martial arts

Lex Fridman (1:46:12.740)

to train with many of my heroes,

Ryan Hall (1:46:14.260)

to train with many of the people that I looked at.

Lex Fridman (1:46:16.300)

And I was like, that guy is amazing.

Ryan Hall (1:46:18.500)

I wanna train with this person, like Stephen Thompson,

Lex Fridman (1:46:21.380)

Kenny Florian, George St. Pierre, Raymond Daniels,

Ryan Hall (1:46:23.780)

Farah Zahabi, you know, I mean, like Bruno Frazada,

Lex Fridman (1:46:26.420)

Marcelo Garcia, you know, all of these guys

Ryan Hall (1:46:28.860)

that are just unbelievable.

Lex Fridman (1:46:30.660)

And I go, well, they're moving in a way that's different.

Lex Fridman (1:46:33.940)

Well, how do I do that?

Lex Fridman (1:46:34.860)

Well, sometimes you can ask them

Lex Fridman (1:46:36.140)

and they can tell you directly.

Lex Fridman (1:46:37.180)

Other times, people, part of the genius of what they do

Ryan Hall (1:46:39.620)

is that it's intuitive.

Lex Fridman (1:46:41.060)

And maybe they don't think and understand

Lex Fridman (1:46:42.980)

and see the world the same way that I do.

Lex Fridman (1:46:44.540)

That was something that I experienced with Marcelo.

Ryan Hall (1:46:47.020)

He's amazing.

Lex Fridman (1:46:48.020)

But in a different way than his,

Ryan Hall (1:46:51.260)

it just, we see things fundamentally different.

Lex Fridman (1:46:54.180)

We experience the world differently.

Ryan Hall (1:46:55.380)

It seems to me that we do.

Lex Fridman (1:46:56.820)

And again, that taught me a really important lesson

Ryan Hall (1:46:59.820)

because I was wanting, when I trained there,

Lex Fridman (1:47:01.220)

to have someone go, hey, Ryan, do this, this, this,

Lex Fridman (1:47:03.220)

and this, and that's how it works.

Lex Fridman (1:47:04.540)

And I'm like, all right, because that's how I understood

Ryan Hall (1:47:06.380)

martial arts at the time.

Lex Fridman (1:47:08.860)

I wasn't ready to have someone tell me, like, hey,

Ryan Hall (1:47:13.500)

it feels a little bit like this, and I just kind of do it,

Lex Fridman (1:47:16.540)

which is kind of what Marcelo would do at the time.

Ryan Hall (1:47:19.180)

He was less experienced as a teacher,

Lex Fridman (1:47:20.860)

but that is what he was doing.

Ryan Hall (1:47:22.980)

I was completely, I couldn't separate in my mind

Lex Fridman (1:47:26.300)

performance and understanding.

Ryan Hall (1:47:28.820)

I thought that if I understand, I could do it.

Lex Fridman (1:47:30.300)

And I would also struggle sometimes

Ryan Hall (1:47:32.420)

to wonder why I couldn't execute things

Lex Fridman (1:47:35.420)

that I thought I understood,

Lex Fridman (1:47:37.260)

and why guys like Marcelo were just so elemental.

Lex Fridman (1:47:40.220)

I mean, in like the, like lightning, wind,

Ryan Hall (1:47:42.260)

like that type of thing where like, it's just so in touch

Lex Fridman (1:47:44.620)

with what they wanted, with their capabilities.

Ryan Hall (1:47:47.660)

They could summon their powers at will.

Lex Fridman (1:47:50.820)

I couldn't always do that.

Lex Fridman (1:47:52.260)

And I guess, so recognizing that there was more than one way

Lex Fridman (1:47:56.500)

to the top of the mountain, and also I had a lot of science,

Lex Fridman (1:47:58.740)

but I didn't have a lot of art, or I had some science,

Lex Fridman (1:48:00.660)

I should say, but I didn't have a lot of art.

Ryan Hall (1:48:02.500)

Meeting people like Marcelo taught me,

Lex Fridman (1:48:04.260)

and then Josh Waitzkin, actually brilliant guy,

Ryan Hall (1:48:06.540)

chess champion, former owner,

Lex Fridman (1:48:08.380)

maybe owner of Marcelo's Academy, really great friend.

Ryan Hall (1:48:10.620)

I think he has a book on learning.

Lex Fridman (1:48:11.820)

He does, yeah, The Art of Learning, actually.

Lex Fridman (1:48:13.900)

But yeah, he knows a thing or two about it,

Lex Fridman (1:48:15.620)

but a great guy.

Lex Fridman (1:48:16.460)

And anyway, he sat me down one time,

Lex Fridman (1:48:18.140)

and was like, look, man, you're doing this wrong.

Ryan Hall (1:48:19.940)

You're missing what the, missing the genius,

Lex Fridman (1:48:22.300)

the brilliance that's right in front of you.

Lex Fridman (1:48:24.540)

And it took me a long time.

Lex Fridman (1:48:26.860)

What did he mean exactly?

Ryan Hall (1:48:28.140)

I was frustrated with my inability

Lex Fridman (1:48:31.460)

to grasp certain things,

Lex Fridman (1:48:32.700)

and sometimes the teaching style being different.

Lex Fridman (1:48:34.900)

Not wrong, just it was, it was tough on me at times.

Lex Fridman (1:48:38.700)

So you were trying to replicate what Marcelo was saying

Lex Fridman (1:48:41.060)

as opposed to understanding the fundamentals

Ryan Hall (1:48:44.940)

from which it was coming.

Lex Fridman (1:48:46.100)

Right, I couldn't see, I couldn't see

Ryan Hall (1:48:47.780)

where it was coming from.

Lex Fridman (1:48:48.860)

And also, sometimes I'm like, well,

Lex Fridman (1:48:50.340)

why can't you explain it in the way

Lex Fridman (1:48:51.620)

that I would want you to explain it?

Lex Fridman (1:48:53.020)

And he's like, well, why can't I meet him

Lex Fridman (1:48:54.580)

where he's coming from?

Lex Fridman (1:48:55.900)

So anyway, it was a really important time,

Lex Fridman (1:48:58.340)

unless I'm very, very frustrating if I'm honest,

Lex Fridman (1:48:59.900)

but it's not, I'm so thankful for that time.

Lex Fridman (1:49:03.420)

And anyway, you know, I guess.

Lex Fridman (1:49:06.100)

So always first principles,

Lex Fridman (1:49:07.220)

trying to understand the basics,

Ryan Hall (1:49:08.780)

first starting at the place where you can control things,

Lex Fridman (1:49:11.900)

the very basic elements of what you can work with.

Lex Fridman (1:49:15.060)

And then when there's other mentors and teachers to.

Lex Fridman (1:49:19.020)

Meet them where they're coming from.

Ryan Hall (1:49:20.100)

Meet them where they're coming from.

Lex Fridman (1:49:20.940)

To the extent that I can.

Ryan Hall (1:49:21.780)

Rather than, I'm not, like, again, it's like,

Lex Fridman (1:49:23.300)

why are you not talking to me

Lex Fridman (1:49:24.820)

the way I want you to talk to me?

Lex Fridman (1:49:26.740)

As opposed to, hey, where are you coming from?

Ryan Hall (1:49:28.420)

Back to your point.

Lex Fridman (1:49:29.660)

But I know that's not entirely specific,

Lex Fridman (1:49:32.220)

but you know, like, if you can focus on that

Lex Fridman (1:49:34.540)

and back to the whole, you can't teach a man anything.

Ryan Hall (1:49:37.180)

Marcelo didn't teach me anything,

Lex Fridman (1:49:38.980)

but he taught me in so doing, like,

Lex Fridman (1:49:41.140)

and other people like that, to find it within.

Lex Fridman (1:49:45.100)

And it's like, yeah, I guess something else

Ryan Hall (1:49:46.660)

that I've heard before is that all learning is self discovery,

Lex Fridman (1:49:49.860)

but all performance is self expression.

Lex Fridman (1:49:52.220)

And I always thought that Marcelo was a brilliant master

Lex Fridman (1:49:54.900)

of letting what's inside out.

Ryan Hall (1:49:56.180)

He was so consistent in his performances.

Lex Fridman (1:49:59.100)

And a lot of times I felt like there was a block there

Ryan Hall (1:50:01.580)

personally, particularly at the end of Jiu Jitsu

Lex Fridman (1:50:03.180)

when I was very, very results oriented.

Lex Fridman (1:50:04.900)

And I wasn't, I think my focus was not ideal.

Lex Fridman (1:50:08.340)

It was definitely not in the place

Ryan Hall (1:50:09.700)

that I would like it to be.

Lex Fridman (1:50:10.980)

And whether it would have won more or lost more,

Ryan Hall (1:50:12.980)

hard to say, but I know that I would have performed better

Lex Fridman (1:50:14.540)

if I'd have adjusted that.

Lex Fridman (1:50:15.540)

And anyway, that recognizing that, again, Jiu Jitsu,

Lex Fridman (1:50:19.420)

I think I've said it before, Jiu Jitsu studies is a science,

Lex Fridman (1:50:21.300)

but expressed as an art.

Lex Fridman (1:50:22.940)

It doesn't matter if you can articulate

Lex Fridman (1:50:24.580)

what you know how to do.

Lex Fridman (1:50:25.460)

What matters is if you can do what you know how to do.

Ryan Hall (1:50:27.420)

It only matters if you're, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:50:28.420)

I guess if you're teaching in a verbal fashion

Ryan Hall (1:50:30.260)

is whether or not you can articulate it,

Lex Fridman (1:50:31.340)

but recognizing the difference between learning

Ryan Hall (1:50:35.140)

on an intellectual level or conceptual level

Lex Fridman (1:50:37.540)

and being able to translate that into the physical.

Lex Fridman (1:50:40.420)

And I guess like that's been the thing

Lex Fridman (1:50:41.700)

that I feel like fortunate over time in my own academy

Ryan Hall (1:50:44.260)

to be able to kind of fiddle around and learn on my own

Lex Fridman (1:50:46.420)

and practice with my students.

Ryan Hall (1:50:47.580)

And, you know, sometimes I struggle

Lex Fridman (1:50:49.260)

to have great training partners.

Ryan Hall (1:50:50.540)

Like when I say great training partner,

Lex Fridman (1:50:51.380)

I mean, other world class people to spar, to roll with,

Lex Fridman (1:50:53.860)

but I've gotten a lot more, honestly,

Lex Fridman (1:50:56.180)

than I ever would have thought

Ryan Hall (1:50:57.020)

out of being able to practice and learn and fail and try

Lex Fridman (1:50:59.740)

and succeed on my own without like my own little sandbox,

Ryan Hall (1:51:03.580)

figuring out how I can take an idea

Lex Fridman (1:51:06.420)

and then come up with drills and drills to practice it

Lex Fridman (1:51:10.260)

so that I can actually practice putting it into play.

Lex Fridman (1:51:12.340)

Because again, knowing an idea and then not drilling,

Lex Fridman (1:51:15.540)

what's the point?

Lex Fridman (1:51:16.380)

I'll never have it.

Ryan Hall (1:51:17.220)

It'll never see the light of day.

Lex Fridman (1:51:19.060)

So in that DVD, in that instruction DVD, sorry.

Ryan Hall (1:51:22.780)

It's an online instructional DVD.

Lex Fridman (1:51:25.020)

I keep saying DVD though.

Ryan Hall (1:51:26.020)

Nobody has DVDs anymore.

Lex Fridman (1:51:27.580)

Do they not? It's like VHS.

Ryan Hall (1:51:28.500)

I don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:51:29.740)

Who has DVDs?

Lex Fridman (1:51:30.580)

What, like Blu Ray?

Lex Fridman (1:51:31.620)

I possess some DVDs.

Ryan Hall (1:51:33.220)

I mean, like I've never watched them.

Lex Fridman (1:51:34.420)

What do you use them for?

Lex Fridman (1:51:35.580)

Like a cup, like a thing you put a drink on?

Lex Fridman (1:51:41.100)

I mean, in a pinch, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:51:46.980)

What's that even called?

Lex Fridman (1:51:48.980)

Coaster?

Ryan Hall (1:51:49.820)

Yeah, my matrix coaster.

Lex Fridman (1:51:52.780)

The matrix coaster, zeros and ones.

Ryan Hall (1:51:55.660)

Okay, so in that instruction that people should get,

Lex Fridman (1:52:00.300)

I've been watching.

Ryan Hall (1:52:01.180)

I'm really enjoying.

Lex Fridman (1:52:03.180)

It's, I don't even know when it came out recently, right?

Lex Fridman (1:52:06.500)

Like December or something like that?

Lex Fridman (1:52:07.620)

Yeah, it's part one.

Ryan Hall (1:52:10.180)

It was actually like ended up being like 18 hours long

Lex Fridman (1:52:12.380)

and I was like, oh my God, we gotta chop it in half.

Lex Fridman (1:52:14.100)

And when it comes together, the whole thing,

Lex Fridman (1:52:16.260)

I think I hope people will like it.

Ryan Hall (1:52:17.300)

Yeah, well it's even part one is really good.

Lex Fridman (1:52:20.340)

Yeah, people on Reddit were really excited

Ryan Hall (1:52:22.540)

for part two as well.

Lex Fridman (1:52:23.540)

Really?

Lex Fridman (1:52:24.380)

And you also have a back.

Lex Fridman (1:52:25.820)

Oh, the old one.

Ryan Hall (1:52:26.660)

The old one that I, that was really helpful to me

Lex Fridman (1:52:29.420)

to understand some very basic aspects of control

Ryan Hall (1:52:32.700)

for the back.

Lex Fridman (1:52:33.540)

Really?

Ryan Hall (1:52:34.380)

Yeah, that was, you know, that clicked with me.

Lex Fridman (1:52:37.380)

There's very few instructionals.

Ryan Hall (1:52:39.140)

There's very few things I've watched

Lex Fridman (1:52:41.900)

that ever clicked with me and that was definitely it.

Ryan Hall (1:52:45.260)

It taught me one thing, I don't know,

Lex Fridman (1:52:48.380)

it's you drop a lot of sort of bombs,

Ryan Hall (1:52:51.740)

you drop a lot of really interesting details

Lex Fridman (1:52:54.780)

and it's funny that there's only specific things

Ryan Hall (1:52:59.260)

that really click.

Lex Fridman (1:53:00.740)

Like a lot of it rings true and you kind of take it in

Lex Fridman (1:53:03.340)

and it's like, oh, that's interesting, okay, yeah,

Lex Fridman (1:53:05.500)

but there's certain things that really click.

Lex Fridman (1:53:07.140)

And I remember when that first instruction

Lex Fridman (1:53:11.180)

will click with me is like the importance.

Ryan Hall (1:53:14.340)

I don't remember any more like how you communicated it

Lex Fridman (1:53:17.580)

because I've now integrated, it's now mine,

Lex Fridman (1:53:20.220)

you know what I mean?

Lex Fridman (1:53:21.820)

But it was more about you just describing upper body control

Lex Fridman (1:53:26.020)

and the importance of the upper body control from the back.

Lex Fridman (1:53:29.540)

And just like the, there's certain grip,

Ryan Hall (1:53:31.500)

like you did describe different details on the grips

Lex Fridman (1:53:35.300)

and so on and as I started trying it,

Ryan Hall (1:53:38.060)

I realized how important upper body control is

Lex Fridman (1:53:42.620)

versus like me maybe as a blue belt or something

Ryan Hall (1:53:46.140)

was I thought like you have achieved victory

Lex Fridman (1:53:49.180)

when you got the two hooks in.

Lex Fridman (1:53:51.420)

And then I realized like at least for me

Lex Fridman (1:53:53.580)

that the hooks were not even for my body type,

Ryan Hall (1:53:56.740)

for my style, for the way I approach things,

Lex Fridman (1:53:59.300)

they were not even important at all.

Ryan Hall (1:54:01.020)

It's supplemental for the most part, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:54:02.740)

So they were there for the points

Lex Fridman (1:54:04.340)

but I can establish a huge amount of control.

Lex Fridman (1:54:08.060)

In fact, the hooks were, you were talking about

Ryan Hall (1:54:11.900)

like illusion of choice, it almost made people panic

Lex Fridman (1:54:16.260)

a lot more when you were like fighting for it

Ryan Hall (1:54:18.740)

or establishing that kind of control.

Lex Fridman (1:54:20.140)

They were a lot less panicked when the hooks weren't

Ryan Hall (1:54:23.020)

involved even though they should be a lot more panicked.

Lex Fridman (1:54:25.980)

Anyway, I realized a lot of those kinds of things,

Ryan Hall (1:54:28.820)

especially that had to do with judo because so much

Lex Fridman (1:54:31.860)

of judo on the ground is centered around aggressive,

Ryan Hall (1:54:35.780)

efficient, very fast choking, like different kinds

Lex Fridman (1:54:39.180)

of clock chokes and all that kind of stuff.

Lex Fridman (1:54:41.260)

What a brilliant thing that is only gonna start

Lex Fridman (1:54:43.060)

to make its way into jiu jitsu coming up

Lex Fridman (1:54:44.580)

but like the judo style approach to like clock choking,

Lex Fridman (1:54:47.100)

triangling from the top of the turtle and stuff,

Lex Fridman (1:54:49.540)

so powerful.

Lex Fridman (1:54:50.500)

Yeah, and there's something about judo that emphasizes

Ryan Hall (1:54:54.260)

obviously due to the rules, the urgency.

Lex Fridman (1:54:57.420)

So you only do techniques that go fast.

Lex Fridman (1:55:00.260)

And then the other thing is, which I guess

Lex Fridman (1:55:03.940)

jiu jitsu emphasizes too but judo really does,

Ryan Hall (1:55:06.820)

which is the transition.

Lex Fridman (1:55:10.220)

So like while the person's flying in the air

Ryan Hall (1:55:12.260)

is the easiest time.

Lex Fridman (1:55:14.060)

I mean, this is like Ryan Hall type of shit,

Ryan Hall (1:55:15.940)

which is like, why not put in your submissions

Lex Fridman (1:55:20.860)

or positional control while they're in the air?

Lex Fridman (1:55:23.900)

If you could, why would you not, right?

Lex Fridman (1:55:26.020)

It's like, oh, well, I don't throw well.

Ryan Hall (1:55:27.420)

We'll learn how to throw and then do it.

Lex Fridman (1:55:29.660)

And so you should think, I mean, in the transition,

Ryan Hall (1:55:32.580)

when they're flying is the easiest time to put in stuff.

Lex Fridman (1:55:35.180)

And that's when you think about chokes,

Ryan Hall (1:55:37.900)

as you're throwing, you should be thinking about the choke

Lex Fridman (1:55:40.740)

and then everything becomes a lot easier.

Lex Fridman (1:55:42.940)

You ever see Flabio Canto?

Lex Fridman (1:55:46.100)

Man, Brazilian judoka is just so cool.

Ryan Hall (1:55:48.700)

Like with stuff like that.

Lex Fridman (1:55:49.660)

Yeah, exactly, but that has to do

Ryan Hall (1:55:52.020)

with the first starting principle of like,

Lex Fridman (1:55:54.860)

stop thinking this as a two phase game

Ryan Hall (1:55:57.380)

of standing and then ground.

Lex Fridman (1:56:00.180)

Start thinking about like the standing and the,

Ryan Hall (1:56:03.740)

the standing comes before and the ground comes after,

Lex Fridman (1:56:05.680)

but everything happens in a transition.

Lex Fridman (1:56:07.700)

Well, unless you're attacking, what is the art of war?

Lex Fridman (1:56:09.660)

Like, we all like, everyone's like,

Ryan Hall (1:56:10.940)

oh yeah, the art of war, oh yes, yes, yes.

Lex Fridman (1:56:12.460)

And then they immediately throw it away

Lex Fridman (1:56:14.020)

and then fight like a fricking barbarian.

Lex Fridman (1:56:16.300)

But, I mean like, I'm serious,

Lex Fridman (1:56:18.540)

but how many people quote stuff and then like,

Lex Fridman (1:56:22.300)

it's like the, what is it, the family guy joke

Ryan Hall (1:56:23.820)

where they're like, quoting Jesus and Jesus walks in,

Lex Fridman (1:56:26.100)

he's like, you're not listening to my work,

Lex Fridman (1:56:27.100)

what are you talking about?

Lex Fridman (1:56:27.980)

And anyway, basically, like the art of war,

Ryan Hall (1:56:33.220)

one of the things that's like the only thing

Lex Fridman (1:56:34.700)

that you can be sure of being successful in attacking

Ryan Hall (1:56:37.060)

is something that's undefended.

Lex Fridman (1:56:39.020)

We're like, well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:56:39.860)

But you know, in a fight though, they're defended.

Lex Fridman (1:56:42.480)

Well, are they?

Ryan Hall (1:56:44.260)

There's moments all the time

Lex Fridman (1:56:45.620)

where I'm borderline defenseless.

Lex Fridman (1:56:47.240)

And if you were to attack at that moment,

Lex Fridman (1:56:49.560)

if you could see it and then seize the moment,

Ryan Hall (1:56:51.660)

if you were capable of both,

Lex Fridman (1:56:53.280)

you should not only expect to be successful,

Ryan Hall (1:56:54.980)

you should be damn sure you're gonna be successful.

Lex Fridman (1:56:56.260)

And more important than that, you'll be successful.

Lex Fridman (1:56:58.020)

And even if somehow not, you won't be countered.

Lex Fridman (1:57:00.140)

And I guess like, that's the trick

Lex Fridman (1:57:02.740)

of almost all like conflict, right?

Lex Fridman (1:57:05.940)

It's like showing up when the other person's taking a nap.

Lex Fridman (1:57:09.100)

And then it's so funny, like we take like a protracted war.

Lex Fridman (1:57:11.780)

It's like, oh, it takes five years.

Lex Fridman (1:57:13.220)

And there's lulls and there's a battle this month,

Lex Fridman (1:57:15.620)

but then there's a couple of weeks, another battle.

Ryan Hall (1:57:17.080)

It's like, well, if you just shrink that down,

Lex Fridman (1:57:18.600)

it's the microcosm, macrocosm idea.

Ryan Hall (1:57:20.700)

That same thing, that whole war is taking place

Lex Fridman (1:57:22.700)

in five minutes or 10 minutes or 15 minutes.

Lex Fridman (1:57:24.820)

And there's moments of lulls of person effectively

Lex Fridman (1:57:27.680)

going for a snack, being like in a horror movie,

Ryan Hall (1:57:30.580)

like, hey guys, I'm gonna go get a beer from around the way.

Lex Fridman (1:57:33.000)

Like I'm dead for sure.

Lex Fridman (1:57:34.180)

So anyway.

Lex Fridman (1:57:35.700)

Is there, on this particular instructional,

Ryan Hall (1:57:38.820)

if you can convert it to words,

Lex Fridman (1:57:41.620)

you talk about finishing the submission.

Ryan Hall (1:57:43.820)

Is there some interesting insights

Lex Fridman (1:57:47.080)

that you find beautiful or profound

Ryan Hall (1:57:49.100)

about finishing the rear neck and choke

Lex Fridman (1:57:51.780)

or just finishing the submissions for the back control?

Ryan Hall (1:57:54.340)

Is there something like, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:57:56.160)

you talk about the squeeze and the crush

Lex Fridman (1:57:58.400)

and all these kinds of principles.

Lex Fridman (1:58:01.220)

Is there something about control

Ryan Hall (1:58:03.380)

about the process of finishing

Lex Fridman (1:58:05.780)

that you find especially profound about this position?

Ryan Hall (1:58:09.420)

Absolutely.

Lex Fridman (1:58:10.240)

The opposite of one profound truth

Ryan Hall (1:58:11.860)

can be another profound truth.

Lex Fridman (1:58:13.460)

So like, it's, I do a.

Lex Fridman (1:58:17.780)

Did Jesus say that?

Lex Fridman (1:58:18.600)

No, I don't, I actually was a guy on Tumblr.

Lex Fridman (1:58:21.520)

But yeah, it was really, really cool.

Lex Fridman (1:58:24.300)

There was like a tree in the background.

Lex Fridman (1:58:26.320)

But anyway, but so let's say like,

Lex Fridman (1:58:30.060)

I'll use examples.

Ryan Hall (1:58:31.220)

Like first off, I saw someone finishing a 50, 50 heel hook

Lex Fridman (1:58:35.080)

in the UFC one promo.

Ryan Hall (1:58:36.980)

It was like some chubby dude in karate,

Lex Fridman (1:58:39.180)

like inside heel hook and another dude.

Lex Fridman (1:58:41.060)

And you go, huh?

Lex Fridman (1:58:43.860)

Well, I didn't know they were doing that back then at least.

Lex Fridman (1:58:45.740)

And whether they were doing it all,

Lex Fridman (1:58:46.740)

how many times did someone do something and then that works?

Lex Fridman (1:58:50.340)

And then we go, okay, cool.

Lex Fridman (1:58:51.660)

Versus, hey, maybe we should do that all the time.

Lex Fridman (1:58:53.480)

So anyway, how long were we all taught

Lex Fridman (1:58:55.340)

to do the seatbelt the way we all do the seatbelt in jiu jitsu?

Lex Fridman (1:58:58.260)

Like long time, why?

Lex Fridman (1:58:59.380)

Works.

Ryan Hall (1:59:00.200)

In fact, it works so well.

Lex Fridman (1:59:02.860)

And it was so, it was then the people who used it

Ryan Hall (1:59:05.020)

were so prolific that we went, well, solve that one.

Lex Fridman (1:59:08.860)

Good to go.

Ryan Hall (1:59:10.100)

All right, no more thinking.

Lex Fridman (1:59:11.900)

And then you go, imagine you were to like the Merkel,

Ryan Hall (1:59:14.140)

the Merkel flip, all those positions that were showing

Lex Fridman (1:59:16.200)

in the DVD, which is pretty much,

Ryan Hall (1:59:17.820)

or whatever the heck it is, the digital VD.

Lex Fridman (1:59:22.980)

No, not VD, don't want that.

Ryan Hall (1:59:24.500)

Digital video something.

Lex Fridman (1:59:26.220)

But basically recognizing that doing it on the wrong side

Ryan Hall (1:59:31.160)

is at least as effective.

Lex Fridman (1:59:32.980)

Doesn't mean that the other side wasn't good.

Ryan Hall (1:59:34.920)

There could be something that's the literal

Lex Fridman (1:59:36.660)

borderline opposite of that.

Lex Fridman (1:59:38.460)

And you go, huh, well, that's something.

Lex Fridman (1:59:42.660)

Like imagine like, I would say almost all of these things,

Ryan Hall (1:59:44.980)

all the tactics and all the strategies.

Lex Fridman (1:59:46.480)

So I guess that was something that we came to

Ryan Hall (1:59:48.220)

like training in the gym like a year ago, maybe,

Lex Fridman (1:59:51.140)

and then playing with sense.

Lex Fridman (1:59:51.980)

And it's just, it's huge.

Lex Fridman (1:59:52.800)

I'm like, oh wait, so let me get this straight.

Ryan Hall (1:59:54.060)

First off, I can use my strong side seatbelt,

Lex Fridman (1:59:55.740)

my right arm over the shoulder all the time.

Ryan Hall (1:59:58.340)

Well, that's really helpful

Lex Fridman (1:59:59.440)

because that's a lot better than my left.

Lex Fridman (20:00.800)

and some of those people being hesitant to get in the game.

Lex Fridman (20:03.320)

But it gives you so much time to be out of the trenches

Lex Fridman (20:06.960)

and focus on developing your abilities

Lex Fridman (20:08.920)

so that now it's almost like developing money

Ryan Hall (20:10.720)

like you mentioned the stock market

Lex Fridman (20:11.800)

that you can now put in.

Ryan Hall (20:13.320)

Imagine you told me Bitcoin was a great idea five years ago

Lex Fridman (20:16.080)

and I had eight bucks.

Ryan Hall (20:17.280)

Man, if someone told me Bitcoin was a great idea

Lex Fridman (20:18.800)

five years ago and I had 50K,

Ryan Hall (20:20.920)

I'd be like, oh my God, I'd be sleeping in my bed of money

Lex Fridman (20:23.440)

that I would then set on fire later

Lex Fridman (20:24.880)

so they had just to do it.

Lex Fridman (20:26.120)

So due to all the injuries,

Ryan Hall (20:27.920)

you've been mining Bitcoin all this time

Lex Fridman (20:29.920)

and now you're a rich man.

Ryan Hall (20:31.200)

Well, no, actually someone told me

Lex Fridman (20:32.320)

I was trying to mine for Bitcoin,

Ryan Hall (20:33.880)

actually like in a cave.

Lex Fridman (20:35.560)

And then I found out recently that it's actually,

Ryan Hall (20:37.480)

mining is like a figure of speech.

Lex Fridman (20:39.600)

You misunderstood. Not like a literal thing that you do.

Lex Fridman (20:41.200)

But I mean, in my defense, I only know what I know.

Lex Fridman (20:42.040)

English language is difficult.

Ryan Hall (20:43.800)

It is, it really is.

Lex Fridman (20:45.200)

Next time talk to me, I'll explain.

Ryan Hall (20:47.440)

Russian is more, is a rich language.

Lex Fridman (20:50.440)

You should learn, you should learn Russian.

Ryan Hall (20:52.640)

I'll help you out.

Lex Fridman (20:53.480)

I believe you, thank you.

Lex Fridman (20:54.560)

Can you do a whirlwind overview of your career

Lex Fridman (20:59.560)

in MMA leading up to this point

Lex Fridman (21:03.120)

with the injuries and the undefeated record?

Lex Fridman (21:06.280)

And then what's next since we're on the topic?

Ryan Hall (21:09.320)

I did my first fight as a blue belt

Lex Fridman (21:12.600)

and I've been training for about a year and a half.

Ryan Hall (21:13.960)

I did nine Jiu Jitsu tournaments in 10 weekends

Lex Fridman (21:16.360)

or maybe eight Jiu Jitsu tournaments in 10 weekends

Ryan Hall (21:18.200)

prior to my first fight in April 2006.

Lex Fridman (21:22.240)

I got punched in the face a whole bunch.

Ryan Hall (21:23.640)

I didn't realize it was a professional fight

Lex Fridman (21:25.360)

and found that out like the day beforehand.

Ryan Hall (21:27.480)

That was great.

Lex Fridman (21:28.880)

Thanks, coach.

Ryan Hall (21:30.880)

It was in Atlantic City where another place

Lex Fridman (21:32.880)

no one ever goes on purpose.

Lex Fridman (21:34.160)

So that wasn't great.

Lex Fridman (21:35.200)

I got into three, actually three car accidents

Ryan Hall (21:38.960)

in the preceding 36 hours before the fight.

Lex Fridman (21:42.080)

I had my car totaled.

Ryan Hall (21:44.120)

I wasn't driving for any of them.

Lex Fridman (21:45.560)

That was great.

Lex Fridman (21:47.080)

It was 2006?

Lex Fridman (21:47.920)

It was 2006, yeah.

Lex Fridman (21:49.120)

You were a blue belt?

Lex Fridman (21:50.240)

Yeah, yeah, I've been training for about a year and a half.

Lex Fridman (21:51.960)

So you're a blue belt.

Lex Fridman (21:53.120)

You're getting, I mean, if you haven't lived,

Ryan Hall (21:55.240)

if you haven't gotten punched in the face in Atlantic City.

Lex Fridman (21:57.720)

That's true.

Ryan Hall (21:58.560)

I mean, I would have loved to have it happen

Lex Fridman (22:01.760)

for different reasons.

Lex Fridman (22:03.000)

But yeah, well, what's funny is I remember

Lex Fridman (22:06.160)

getting punched in the face a bunch,

Ryan Hall (22:07.520)

trying to do inverted guard.

Lex Fridman (22:08.960)

I won one round, lost two rounds,

Ryan Hall (22:10.840)

definitely lost the fight.

Lex Fridman (22:12.160)

So you went for inverted, sorry to interrupt.

Ryan Hall (22:13.920)

You went for inverted guard.

Lex Fridman (22:14.760)

Can you tell the story of that fight real quick?

Ryan Hall (22:16.600)

Yeah, sure.

Lex Fridman (22:17.440)

It was three three minute rounds,

Ryan Hall (22:18.280)

which is not a professional fight length,

Lex Fridman (22:19.920)

although I don't know if professional fight length

Ryan Hall (22:21.680)

would have been any better.

Lex Fridman (22:22.520)

It's just more time to get punched.

Lex Fridman (22:24.320)

But I found out partway through,

Lex Fridman (22:26.280)

I was like, I remember walking back to my corner

Ryan Hall (22:27.640)

in the first round, I'm like, yeah, this guy can't hurt me.

Lex Fridman (22:29.200)

And he's like, yeah, my corner was my friend, Tom,

Lex Fridman (22:31.840)

and then someone else.

Lex Fridman (22:32.800)

And then he's like, yeah, I would still encourage you

Ryan Hall (22:34.520)

to stop blocking so many punches with your face.

Lex Fridman (22:36.360)

I'm like, that's a good idea, Tom, I appreciate that.

Ryan Hall (22:37.880)

I'm gonna try that.

Lex Fridman (22:39.200)

Anyway, I remember I was not allowed to up kick.

Lex Fridman (22:43.000)

So I'm like, great.

Lex Fridman (22:43.880)

I had no martial arts skills, really at all.

Lex Fridman (22:46.880)

But if I had anything at all, it was jiu jitsu.

Lex Fridman (22:48.440)

It was very, very little jiu jitsu.

Lex Fridman (22:50.440)

But definitely no wrestling, definitely no striking.

Lex Fridman (22:53.120)

I was basically a magnet for punches.

Lex Fridman (22:55.160)

So that was your time, roughnecking out in Atlantic City

Lex Fridman (22:59.360)

as we all do once in a while.

Ryan Hall (23:01.360)

Can we fast forward to when you're actually

Lex Fridman (23:02.960)

dominating the world as a black belt?

Ryan Hall (23:04.960)

Well, actually, it's funny,

Lex Fridman (23:05.800)

because I took a little bit of money that they're like,

Ryan Hall (23:07.200)

hey, we're paying you.

Lex Fridman (23:08.040)

I'm like, really?

Ryan Hall (23:08.880)

It's like Bukowski stories with Ryan Hall.

Lex Fridman (23:11.960)

Well, then I went to the casino.

Ryan Hall (23:13.440)

I went to whatever, like the Tropicana

Lex Fridman (23:14.880)

that was right there, the casino,

Ryan Hall (23:16.320)

because that was a boardwalk hall.

Lex Fridman (23:17.280)

I'm like, you know what, man?

Ryan Hall (23:18.400)

This has been a not great evening.

Lex Fridman (23:20.800)

I'm gonna win it back.

Ryan Hall (23:22.440)

This will be great.

Lex Fridman (23:23.360)

15 minutes later, they had all the money

Ryan Hall (23:25.960)

that I had from the fight was gone.

Lex Fridman (23:27.840)

I just remember walking out of the casino super pissed.

Lex Fridman (23:30.600)

And I don't know what I was thinking.

Lex Fridman (23:32.400)

I'm not good at gambling.

Ryan Hall (23:33.640)

This was not gonna make my night better.

Lex Fridman (23:35.400)

I just thought that there was gonna be

Ryan Hall (23:36.320)

some sort of cosmic balancing,

Lex Fridman (23:37.720)

and maybe it was the cosmic balancing all at once

Ryan Hall (23:39.520)

for things I'd done in the past.

Lex Fridman (23:40.360)

Longer term, though, the balancing.

Ryan Hall (23:43.600)

We'll see.

Lex Fridman (23:44.440)

I hope so.

Ryan Hall (23:45.280)

We're all dead in the end, though.

Lex Fridman (23:46.960)

That is true.

Ryan Hall (23:47.800)

Time will get us all, yeah.

Lex Fridman (23:50.320)

Well, so that was the first one,

Lex Fridman (23:51.680)

and that was when I realized I'm terrible at MMA,

Lex Fridman (23:54.440)

but I like it.

Ryan Hall (23:55.520)

I should just stop this until I one day

Lex Fridman (23:57.200)

learn how to actually grapple,

Ryan Hall (23:58.560)

much less learn how to fight.

Lex Fridman (23:59.680)

But I remember there was this guy named Dave Kaplan,

Ryan Hall (24:01.200)

who's the reason my ears are all messed up,

Lex Fridman (24:03.040)

who was on the Ultimate Fighter and got punched in the face

Lex Fridman (24:05.440)

and knocked out by Tom Lawler,

Lex Fridman (24:06.640)

who I'll always appreciate for doing that.

Lex Fridman (24:09.040)

But anyway.

Lex Fridman (24:10.640)

Dave or Tom?

Ryan Hall (24:11.720)

I appreciate Tom.

Lex Fridman (24:12.560)

I appreciate Dave, too.

Ryan Hall (24:13.400)

Dave was great.

Lex Fridman (24:14.240)

Dave was just a huge bully,

Lex Fridman (24:15.080)

and used to, not completely unmercifully,

Lex Fridman (24:17.440)

but relatively unmercifully beat the crap out of me.

Lex Fridman (24:19.720)

And anyway.

Lex Fridman (24:21.360)

Well, the ears look good, so.

Ryan Hall (24:22.400)

I appreciate that.

Lex Fridman (24:23.240)

I tell people it's a tumor that I got,

Lex Fridman (24:25.160)

and if they want in on a class action lawsuit with AT&T,

Lex Fridman (24:27.880)

they should send me an email.

Lex Fridman (24:31.160)

But anyway.

Lex Fridman (24:32.000)

Well, you're very financially savvy.

Ryan Hall (24:33.920)

Very good.

Lex Fridman (24:34.760)

No, I just give the impression.

Ryan Hall (24:36.080)

Dave basically said, hey, don't worry, man.

Lex Fridman (24:37.600)

You're never gonna be good at MMA.

Lex Fridman (24:39.600)

And you're never gonna be good at grappling, either,

Lex Fridman (24:41.160)

but even if you are good at grappling,

Ryan Hall (24:42.560)

which, in my opinion, you will never be,

Lex Fridman (24:45.440)

you will never be good at fighting.

Lex Fridman (24:46.640)

And I said, Dave, if I do nothing else in my life,

Lex Fridman (24:50.240)

I'm gonna keep training until I can make you pay for that.

Lex Fridman (24:52.720)

And now that I can make him pay for that really easily,

Lex Fridman (24:54.600)

he doesn't train anymore.

Lex Fridman (24:55.600)

But I love Dave.

Lex Fridman (24:56.440)

Dave's awesome.

Ryan Hall (24:57.280)

He actually won the singing beat.

Lex Fridman (24:58.120)

What an interesting dude.

Ryan Hall (24:59.200)

Super interesting guy.

Lex Fridman (25:00.040)

But anyway.

Ryan Hall (25:00.880)

Virginia, like, speaks a couple languages.

Lex Fridman (25:03.760)

Super interesting guy.

Ryan Hall (25:04.600)

Like, shockingly good at Jeopardy, too.

Lex Fridman (25:07.800)

Not that I'm any good, but still shockingly good at Jeopardy.

Lex Fridman (25:09.800)

So anyway, years later, met Faraz Zahabi.

Lex Fridman (25:11.600)

Actually, John Danaher, I met John Danaher,

Lex Fridman (25:13.760)

and he put me in touch with Faraz Zahabi.

Lex Fridman (25:15.600)

I started training at TriStar.

Ryan Hall (25:16.840)

I immediately loved working with Faraz

Lex Fridman (25:18.920)

and learning under Faraz.

Ryan Hall (25:19.760)

Started training at TriStar.

Lex Fridman (25:20.840)

And I did my first real professional MMA fight

Ryan Hall (25:24.000)

as someone that actually does,

Lex Fridman (25:25.680)

had practiced a little bit prior in, I think, August, 2012.

Lex Fridman (25:31.080)

And that was against a guy, he was four and five at the time.

Lex Fridman (25:34.840)

So, you know, had some experience,

Ryan Hall (25:36.720)

good kind of like first go for me, honestly.

Lex Fridman (25:38.760)

And I won that fight by TKO.

Lex Fridman (25:40.920)

And then it was a little bit of a time off.

Lex Fridman (25:42.760)

And then I did another fight against a tough guy

Ryan Hall (25:44.280)

named Magid Hamo.

Lex Fridman (25:45.880)

He was five and two at the time.

Ryan Hall (25:47.040)

I think he was three and I was amateur.

Lex Fridman (25:48.040)

So, you know, a good little bit of fighting experience.

Ryan Hall (25:50.280)

Won that one in the first round of Iron Rear Naked Choke.

Lex Fridman (25:53.140)

And then started to experience difficulty

Ryan Hall (25:56.380)

getting fights at that point.

Lex Fridman (25:59.080)

You know, I...

Ryan Hall (25:59.920)

Were you continuously introduced

Lex Fridman (26:00.760)

as like the master of grappling, the submission?

Ryan Hall (26:04.560)

At least that was my thing.

Lex Fridman (26:05.880)

I don't know if I was...

Lex Fridman (26:06.720)

Is that was the source of the fear for people?

Lex Fridman (26:08.800)

I think so, because, I mean,

Ryan Hall (26:10.000)

I definitely wasn't much at striking at that point.

Lex Fridman (26:12.400)

You know, I definitely am a lot,

Ryan Hall (26:14.600)

I like to think I'm pretty hard to hurt,

Lex Fridman (26:15.920)

although I try not to lean on that.

Lex Fridman (26:17.160)

And I played baseball for like 16 years,

Lex Fridman (26:19.240)

so I can hit things pretty hard.

Ryan Hall (26:20.240)

I just wasn't able to, I recognized pretty early on

Lex Fridman (26:23.640)

that I had no idea how to actually hit things hard

Ryan Hall (26:26.080)

without becoming hitable myself.

Lex Fridman (26:28.280)

So I think that's kind of the big thing is a lot of times,

Ryan Hall (26:31.120)

like we almost were mentioning before,

Lex Fridman (26:33.360)

if you try to go and get people too early,

Ryan Hall (26:36.640)

you can hit them if they're not that good,

Lex Fridman (26:38.700)

but you're going to get hit yourself.

Lex Fridman (26:40.240)

So you're making, you're basically making a wager.

Lex Fridman (26:42.320)

You're making a trade of your own life

Ryan Hall (26:44.200)

for the ability to hit them.

Lex Fridman (26:45.440)

When you watch guys like Israel Adesanya,

Ryan Hall (26:47.240)

Floyd Mayweather, Steven Thompson,

Lex Fridman (26:49.560)

Conor McGregor, when he's fighting really well,

Ryan Hall (26:51.780)

it's not a trade.

Lex Fridman (26:53.000)

They're not, you're hitting them and they're hitting you.

Ryan Hall (26:55.440)

It's, they're hitting you,

Lex Fridman (26:56.840)

but it takes years and years and years and years

Ryan Hall (26:59.280)

to be able to learn how to do that.

Lex Fridman (27:00.200)

Ton Lee is another great example of that.

Ryan Hall (27:01.800)

You know, my closest training partner,

Lex Fridman (27:02.960)

one of my best friends,

Lex Fridman (27:04.120)

and currently now one champion,

Lex Fridman (27:06.960)

one championship in Asia,

Ryan Hall (27:08.560)

the champion of the featherweight,

Lex Fridman (27:10.080)

or I guess lightweight featherweight, 155 over there now.

Lex Fridman (27:14.120)

And he recently defeated Martin Wynn

Lex Fridman (27:16.080)

in a really great fight.

Lex Fridman (27:17.240)

And Ton knocked him out, long time champion.

Lex Fridman (27:19.520)

And Ton doesn't let you hit him.

Ryan Hall (27:21.120)

He doesn't let you touch him.

Lex Fridman (27:22.260)

I feel so fortunate to have met guys like Steven and Ton

Ryan Hall (27:25.160)

to go early on in career and go, holy moly,

Lex Fridman (27:28.900)

I can't even, it's not even like,

Ryan Hall (27:30.540)

oh, you'll let me walk over and find you.

Lex Fridman (27:32.240)

It's like fighting a ghost that periodically shows up

Ryan Hall (27:34.160)

with a hammer and smokes you in the melon

Lex Fridman (27:36.160)

and then disappears into the ether again.

Lex Fridman (27:38.000)

So the way they approach the fighting game is thinking,

Lex Fridman (27:40.120)

how can I attack without being hit?

Lex Fridman (27:42.040)

So every strategy, every idea you have

Lex Fridman (27:45.240)

about what you're going to do

Ryan Hall (27:46.640)

has to do with like that minimizing the returns.

Lex Fridman (27:52.440)

Absolutely.

Ryan Hall (27:53.280)

I mean, that's what all good fighting is done.

Lex Fridman (27:54.600)

All poor fighting, you know,

Ryan Hall (27:55.940)

throughout the course of history, most generals,

Lex Fridman (27:57.440)

whether they're, so I read,

Ryan Hall (27:58.440)

or, you know, they did battles by attrition.

Lex Fridman (28:01.520)

You know, it's like, yeah, man, I've got 150 guys.

Ryan Hall (28:03.920)

You've got 50.

Lex Fridman (28:04.760)

You're like, yeah, if 60 of my guys die killing your 50,

Ryan Hall (28:06.760)

like, that's great for me.

Lex Fridman (28:08.080)

But that's not so great for the 60 guys that died.

Ryan Hall (28:10.720)

You know, I hope it's worth it.

Lex Fridman (28:11.980)

So when you realize that not only,

Ryan Hall (28:13.440)

you're not just Kobe Bryant and you're Phil Jackson too,

Lex Fridman (28:16.360)

you got to do everything.

Ryan Hall (28:17.920)

You know, if you've got to run across the beach in Normandy,

Lex Fridman (28:21.000)

so be it.

Lex Fridman (28:21.840)

But that better be, you should have,

Lex Fridman (28:23.440)

we make sure we thought this through and there's like,

Ryan Hall (28:24.820)

hey, there's no way we can like, you know,

Lex Fridman (28:26.320)

walk around the side, huh?

Ryan Hall (28:27.920)

Because oftentimes there is,

Lex Fridman (28:30.000)

and I think a lot of times there's a lot of incentives

Ryan Hall (28:32.200)

in professional fighting too,

Lex Fridman (28:33.800)

for people to want to do that.

Lex Fridman (28:34.820)

And we come up with all sorts of,

Lex Fridman (28:36.220)

well, I'm trying to be exciting.

Lex Fridman (28:38.420)

Are you?

Lex Fridman (28:39.260)

Is that really what you came here to do?

Ryan Hall (28:40.280)

Cause I came here to win.

Lex Fridman (28:41.440)

And I think that anyone that's really successful

Ryan Hall (28:44.120)

came there to win.

Lex Fridman (28:44.960)

And if it ends up being exciting, well, that's fantastic.

Ryan Hall (28:46.600)

I hope that people enjoy watching something and that's great,

Lex Fridman (28:48.800)

but that's a qualitative assessment anyway.

Ryan Hall (28:51.320)

You know, you want to also be able to, you know,

Lex Fridman (28:54.120)

live the rest of your life.

Ryan Hall (28:55.420)

I think it's easy, you know, I'll use Meldrick Taylor.

Lex Fridman (28:57.620)

I'm a big boxing fan.

Ryan Hall (28:58.580)

Meldrick Taylor was an excellent fighter,

Lex Fridman (29:00.880)

came this close to a world title and was stopped with like,

Ryan Hall (29:05.120)

he was in a fight that he was winning with seconds remaining,

Lex Fridman (29:07.520)

literally seconds remaining.

Lex Fridman (29:08.720)

And they probably could have just let it go

Lex Fridman (29:10.240)

and he would have been world champion.

Lex Fridman (29:11.400)

And it was brutal.

Lex Fridman (29:12.240)

If you ever watched legendary nights like a HBO boxing show,

Ryan Hall (29:15.200)

it's great, but it's heartbreaking.

Lex Fridman (29:17.980)

It's absolutely heartbreaking.

Lex Fridman (29:18.860)

And also like the beating that he absorbed in that fight

Lex Fridman (29:21.240)

changed him for the rest of his life.

Lex Fridman (29:22.940)

And also, you know, don't think he'd never been hit before,

Lex Fridman (29:25.540)

but it was one of those where you go,

Ryan Hall (29:26.800)

it's all fun and games until you can't remember your name

Lex Fridman (29:30.000)

at age 44 years old.

Lex Fridman (29:31.800)

And I didn't come here, what did Patton saying?

Lex Fridman (29:35.080)

Nobody wins a war by dying for his country.

Ryan Hall (29:37.200)

You make the other poor bastard die for his.

Lex Fridman (29:39.260)

And I think that that's kind of what we're shooting for.

Ryan Hall (29:42.500)

And, you know, the lionization of absorbing damage

Lex Fridman (29:46.820)

and that not being a big deal,

Ryan Hall (29:48.280)

like you hear that all the time.

Lex Fridman (29:49.180)

So and so can take shots

Ryan Hall (29:50.640)

that would put a lesser fighter down.

Lex Fridman (29:53.600)

What does that even mean?

Ryan Hall (29:54.720)

You know, like, so let me get this straight.

Lex Fridman (29:56.200)

Your ability to absorb damage is a part of you.

Ryan Hall (29:59.040)

I mean, I guess that, don't get me wrong,

Lex Fridman (2:00:00.700)

I can do both sides of my left,

Lex Fridman (2:00:01.580)

but if I had to bet my life on being able to finish it,

Lex Fridman (2:00:03.900)

I would want my right arm over.

Ryan Hall (2:00:05.820)

Everything that's a tactic or a strategy

Lex Fridman (2:00:07.740)

evolved from an idea.

Ryan Hall (2:00:08.680)

Like capitalism's an idea.

Lex Fridman (2:00:10.740)

Anarchy is an idea, and then it becomes,

Lex Fridman (2:00:12.500)

well, what does that all mean?

Lex Fridman (2:00:13.420)

What are the consequences?

Lex Fridman (2:00:14.540)

What's the fallout of all this, right?

Lex Fridman (2:00:16.060)

So what if we start with jujitsu,

Lex Fridman (2:00:19.140)

the idea of the guard, right?

Lex Fridman (2:00:20.260)

And we go, well, I mean, why do you use the guard?

Ryan Hall (2:00:22.420)

No other martial art really has developed the guard

Lex Fridman (2:00:25.540)

in the same way that jujitsu has.

Lex Fridman (2:00:26.860)

Well, what is the guard?

Lex Fridman (2:00:27.740)

A guard's a defensive idea where you're kind of

Ryan Hall (2:00:29.700)

on your back to some extent or another,

Lex Fridman (2:00:31.940)

and you're using your legs as a wall between you

Lex Fridman (2:00:33.780)

and the other person, and the other guy represents danger.

Lex Fridman (2:00:36.300)

And you're like, yeah, yeah, that's a great idea.

Lex Fridman (2:00:38.260)

Is it?

Lex Fridman (2:00:39.420)

I mean, it clearly works, at least to a certain extent,

Lex Fridman (2:00:41.580)

but where do I want to put my legs when I want to get up?

Lex Fridman (2:00:44.980)

Not on the other dude.

Ryan Hall (2:00:45.820)

I'm trying to put them on things on the floor.

Lex Fridman (2:00:47.580)

If I want to generate a ton of power,

Lex Fridman (2:00:49.660)

what's the first thing I do with my feet?

Lex Fridman (2:00:51.100)

I anchor them to the floor.

Ryan Hall (2:00:52.380)

Drive for a punch, you name it.

Lex Fridman (2:00:53.740)

Move away, jump, dart, you name it.

Lex Fridman (2:00:56.300)

So does it mean that that's a terrible idea

Lex Fridman (2:00:58.660)

to be on your back?

Ryan Hall (2:00:59.500)

No, clearly it works.

Lex Fridman (2:01:00.780)

And clearly it has function.

Lex Fridman (2:01:03.300)

But what if the function that we're giving it

Lex Fridman (2:01:04.940)

and how much focus we're assigning to it

Lex Fridman (2:01:08.300)

is disproportionate to its effectiveness?

Lex Fridman (2:01:11.260)

Maybe, what if it's not a good idea?

Lex Fridman (2:01:13.180)

I'm not saying it's not a good idea, but what if it wasn't?

Lex Fridman (2:01:15.060)

That's a foundational idea of jujitsu.

Lex Fridman (2:01:16.940)

And then how much, because no one questions that foundation,

Lex Fridman (2:01:20.260)

how much innovation is built on top of the idea?

Ryan Hall (2:01:22.980)

Well, of course I want to be,

Lex Fridman (2:01:24.300)

my being on my back is in okay position.

Lex Fridman (2:01:25.940)

So now they're innovating,

Lex Fridman (2:01:27.300)

but they're innovating within a closed system

Ryan Hall (2:01:29.180)

that they think they're innovating in this open space

Lex Fridman (2:01:32.380)

of, oh my God, it can be anything,

Ryan Hall (2:01:33.540)

when in reality it can be anything within this little set.

Lex Fridman (2:01:36.380)

But you don't realize that you're in a set.

Ryan Hall (2:01:37.820)

You don't realize that you're in a box.

Lex Fridman (2:01:39.420)

There would be answers that would become

Lex Fridman (2:01:40.860)

so immediately apparent to you

Lex Fridman (2:01:42.620)

if you were willing to look outside of that,

Lex Fridman (2:01:44.740)

but you'll literally never even look over to your left

Lex Fridman (2:01:47.260)

because you don't even realize the left exists.

Lex Fridman (2:01:49.900)

Do you think there's a lot of places in jujitsu,

Lex Fridman (2:01:52.340)

whether it's back control or generally guards

Lex Fridman (2:01:54.460)

and all the different positions,

Lex Fridman (2:01:55.940)

where there's a lot of space,

Ryan Hall (2:01:58.340)

like a lot to be discovered

Lex Fridman (2:02:01.740)

by questioning the basic assumptions.

Ryan Hall (2:02:03.820)

Maybe if you can give examples of like back control,

Lex Fridman (2:02:06.180)

like, is there something you've discovered that's like?

Ryan Hall (2:02:08.100)

Merkle versus seatbelt.

Lex Fridman (2:02:09.700)

What's Merkle with seatbelt?

Ryan Hall (2:02:10.820)

Seatbelt is a right arm over the shoulder,

Lex Fridman (2:02:13.140)

left arm under the arm.

Ryan Hall (2:02:14.860)

I'm on the same side as my choking arm.

Lex Fridman (2:02:17.600)

Merkle is just, I do the same thing.

Ryan Hall (2:02:19.260)

I don't even adjust my hands.

Lex Fridman (2:02:20.580)

I walk myself over to the left side.

Ryan Hall (2:02:22.060)

I'm on the opposite side.

Lex Fridman (2:02:23.020)

It's actually a more powerful position.

Ryan Hall (2:02:24.340)

Yeah, for people listening,

Lex Fridman (2:02:25.460)

for people who might not know,

Ryan Hall (2:02:26.820)

jujitsu is a, seatbelt is a control.

Lex Fridman (2:02:30.260)

We're talking about when one person

Ryan Hall (2:02:32.380)

is on the back of another person,

Lex Fridman (2:02:34.100)

which is a really dominant position in jujitsu,

Ryan Hall (2:02:36.540)

seatbelt is a, I guess, widely accepted way

Lex Fridman (2:02:41.180)

of holding your arm.

Ryan Hall (2:02:42.020)

Like best practices on those kinds of things.

Lex Fridman (2:02:42.860)

Best practices, yeah, and it's worked so well.

Lex Fridman (2:02:45.340)

So it's a one arm over, one arm under,

Lex Fridman (2:02:49.220)

and there's a certain side

Ryan Hall (2:02:50.540)

you're supposed to be on when you're on the back.

Lex Fridman (2:02:53.820)

Everyone teaches, there's a choking arm,

Ryan Hall (2:02:56.020)

that's the arm that's over,

Lex Fridman (2:02:57.620)

and your body's supposed to be

Ryan Hall (2:02:58.780)

on a certain side relative to that.

Lex Fridman (2:03:01.060)

And then Ryan is describing,

Ryan Hall (2:03:03.060)

questioning these basic assumptions

Lex Fridman (2:03:06.260)

of which side you're supposed to be on.

Lex Fridman (2:03:07.740)

And let's say that's even just like a mid level assumption.

Lex Fridman (2:03:09.780)

It's not even a first principles assumption,

Lex Fridman (2:03:11.660)

but it's pretty close to.

Lex Fridman (2:03:12.700)

It's getting there, but let's just say,

Ryan Hall (2:03:14.740)

for sake of argument, it goes a lot deeper, maybe.

Lex Fridman (2:03:18.320)

I think most of the innovation that I see is not innovation.

Ryan Hall (2:03:21.740)

It's like basically changing the color of a car

Lex Fridman (2:03:24.820)

or polishing like the window a little bit,

Ryan Hall (2:03:27.260)

where you're like, hey, you made it,

Lex Fridman (2:03:28.260)

you made it a little bit different,

Ryan Hall (2:03:29.620)

you made it a little bit better.

Lex Fridman (2:03:30.900)

It's like, oh man, what if I did the same guard

Lex Fridman (2:03:32.800)

and then grab the lapel?

Lex Fridman (2:03:34.060)

I'm not saying that's bad,

Lex Fridman (2:03:35.300)

but you're not fundamentally changing anything.

Lex Fridman (2:03:37.220)

I think most of the big seismic shifts

Ryan Hall (2:03:39.140)

that we see in almost anything come from,

Lex Fridman (2:03:41.220)

hey, that thing we thought was right was wrong,

Ryan Hall (2:03:44.760)

rather than not only is it right, it's even righter.

Lex Fridman (2:03:48.100)

And you're like, that's not wrong, that's not bad,

Lex Fridman (2:03:49.580)

but that's, it's like, oh man, let's say, for instance,

Lex Fridman (2:03:52.440)

I didn't make the triangle better,

Lex Fridman (2:03:53.400)

but let's say I made the triangle a little bit better

Lex Fridman (2:03:54.920)

than it was, or than it was taught.

Ryan Hall (2:03:58.620)

I mean, you can call it innovation.

Lex Fridman (2:04:00.020)

I don't know, man.

Ryan Hall (2:04:00.860)

It's not like the person that said,

Lex Fridman (2:04:01.860)

hey, have you guys ever heard of a triangle before

Lex Fridman (2:04:03.660)

and came up with that?

Lex Fridman (2:04:04.500)

We're like, that is, you're like, that's on the list?

Lex Fridman (2:04:06.600)

You can do this thing to people?

Lex Fridman (2:04:07.680)

Are you kidding me?

Lex Fridman (2:04:08.520)

Can you imagine you invented the straight right hand?

Lex Fridman (2:04:11.540)

You'll be like one punch man.

Ryan Hall (2:04:12.580)

You can walk around and just lay low

Lex Fridman (2:04:14.580)

every single person you got into a fight with,

Ryan Hall (2:04:16.200)

because it didn't even occur to them to hit you

Lex Fridman (2:04:18.300)

with their back hand.

Ryan Hall (2:04:19.500)

In a world full of jabbers, you throw your back hand.

Lex Fridman (2:04:22.240)

You're gonna kill people.

Lex Fridman (2:04:23.500)

So basically.

Lex Fridman (2:04:24.340)

Well, but by the way, I mean, just to pause on that,

Ryan Hall (2:04:26.980)

first of all, somebody did invent the triangle probably,

Lex Fridman (2:04:29.660)

right?

Ryan Hall (2:04:30.500)

For sure.

Lex Fridman (2:04:31.320)

It's not a trivial thing once you think.

Ryan Hall (2:04:32.160)

No.

Lex Fridman (2:04:33.000)

How many of these giant things that we all go like,

Ryan Hall (2:04:35.200)

oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we all use that now.

Lex Fridman (2:04:36.500)

Can you imagine you have triangles and heel hooks

Lex Fridman (2:04:38.760)

and rear naked chokes and I don't have those?

Lex Fridman (2:04:41.780)

You're on beat, you're borderline, I mean, like,

Ryan Hall (2:04:43.260)

that's why, that's, we all, every single one of this,

Lex Fridman (2:04:45.380)

particularly those of us, I mean,

Lex Fridman (2:04:46.340)

when did you first start training, Lex?

Lex Fridman (2:04:48.780)

12, 13, well, let's not count wrestling,

Lex Fridman (2:04:51.900)

but 13 years ago with Jiu Jitsu.

Lex Fridman (2:04:53.740)

Right on.

Lex Fridman (2:04:54.580)

So let's say about that time where particularly

Lex Fridman (2:04:55.940)

it was still like kind of, kind of undergroundy,

Ryan Hall (2:04:58.140)

you know, and you're like, hey, we all experienced

Lex Fridman (2:05:00.340)

being like a relative, like a mid level white belt

Lex Fridman (2:05:03.660)

and being able to easily beat up all our friends

Lex Fridman (2:05:06.300)

because everyone wrestled other buddies.

Lex Fridman (2:05:07.700)

And it was one of those ones where like,

Lex Fridman (2:05:09.240)

they don't have weapons to end the fight.

Ryan Hall (2:05:11.500)

You have weapons to end the fight.

Lex Fridman (2:05:13.860)

That's so, that's such a crazy, you know,

Ryan Hall (2:05:16.700)

asymmetric advantage that if you lose, it's on you now, man.

Lex Fridman (2:05:21.900)

Like, like you had the, next time it's like,

Ryan Hall (2:05:23.940)

I've got this rifle and you have nothing.

Lex Fridman (2:05:26.060)

And I decided to put it on my back and then run over

Lex Fridman (2:05:27.820)

and try to karate chop.

Lex Fridman (2:05:28.660)

You're like, okay, next time,

Ryan Hall (2:05:30.440)

just make sure you use the rifle, bud.

Lex Fridman (2:05:31.940)

I'm like, oh yeah, I should do that.

Ryan Hall (2:05:33.420)

So.

Lex Fridman (2:05:34.260)

Yeah, it's kind of fascinating to,

Ryan Hall (2:05:35.260)

I mean, everything you're describing is a,

Lex Fridman (2:05:38.020)

there's a fascinating tension between like,

Ryan Hall (2:05:40.180)

whatever I show people for the first time,

Lex Fridman (2:05:41.760)

what a triangle is, just like regular people.

Ryan Hall (2:05:45.120)

It's like, they're discovering is like,

Lex Fridman (2:05:46.580)

oh, okay, that's interesting.

Ryan Hall (2:05:47.980)

I mean, MMA has changed that,

Lex Fridman (2:05:49.180)

but people haven't watched MMA.

Ryan Hall (2:05:51.580)

That's an interesting move.

Lex Fridman (2:05:52.740)

It doesn't make sense why that would be a choke.

Lex Fridman (2:05:54.740)

And they kind of quickly accepted that's a thing

Lex Fridman (2:05:59.340)

and they accept the basics without questioning,

Lex Fridman (2:06:02.660)

wait a minute, what's actually being choked?

Lex Fridman (2:06:06.720)

How is it that a shoulder of a person

Lex Fridman (2:06:10.540)

can do the choking?

Lex Fridman (2:06:12.640)

Like, I'm not sure I fully question

Ryan Hall (2:06:15.300)

the fundamentals of all of that.

Lex Fridman (2:06:16.780)

Like, what exactly is the blood supply

Lex Fridman (2:06:19.780)

that's being cut off?

Lex Fridman (2:06:21.300)

Like, what is the anatomy and the physiology

Lex Fridman (2:06:24.020)

of all of that?

Lex Fridman (2:06:24.860)

Why does this work?

Lex Fridman (2:06:25.680)

And if you understood all that,

Lex Fridman (2:06:26.520)

what else can we do here?

Lex Fridman (2:06:27.340)

Yeah, what else can we do here?

Lex Fridman (2:06:28.680)

That's the really important thing.

Lex Fridman (2:06:29.940)

But if we know, if I'm an end user,

Lex Fridman (2:06:31.600)

which almost everyone is of almost anything,

Ryan Hall (2:06:33.280)

I'm serious, where I'm like,

Lex Fridman (2:06:34.780)

I think about stuff in my life,

Ryan Hall (2:06:35.740)

the only things I really think about

Lex Fridman (2:06:36.940)

are like martial arts and martial arts strategy

Lex Fridman (2:06:39.180)

and like, I don't know, some other couple,

Lex Fridman (2:06:41.220)

a couple other things, but not much.

Lex Fridman (2:06:42.700)

And anything else in my life is borderline unexamined.

Lex Fridman (2:06:46.100)

And I like to think that if I put a lot of effort

Ryan Hall (2:06:47.780)

in something, I'd like to think that I could figure

Lex Fridman (2:06:49.460)

at least some things out about it,

Lex Fridman (2:06:50.740)

but I figured out almost nothing about anything in my life

Lex Fridman (2:06:53.100)

because I haven't even looked.

Lex Fridman (2:06:54.740)

And if you're an end user, what are you capable of

Lex Fridman (2:06:57.820)

versus you can literally alter the source code.

Ryan Hall (2:07:00.800)

You are Neo in the fricking matrix,

Lex Fridman (2:07:02.820)

if you can alter the code and I can't.

Lex Fridman (2:07:04.900)

And it's like, we think, ah, ah, ah, ah,

Lex Fridman (2:07:06.980)

but imagine you are a world class anything,

Ryan Hall (2:07:10.700)

or you're not even world class, forget it.

Lex Fridman (2:07:11.940)

Like a purple belt compared to a white belt

Ryan Hall (2:07:13.800)

or compared to a no belt might as well be John Jones

Lex Fridman (2:07:16.080)

or Marcelo Garcia, you're gonna beat them up comparably bad.

Lex Fridman (2:07:18.940)

So it's, that actually is a common thing

Lex Fridman (2:07:21.900)

where people can't tell the difference between levels.

Ryan Hall (2:07:23.420)

They're like, oh man, I've trained

Lex Fridman (2:07:24.260)

with my black belt instructor,

Lex Fridman (2:07:25.100)

how much better could so and so be?

Lex Fridman (2:07:26.380)

Like, so much better you're gonna have a hard time

Ryan Hall (2:07:29.460)

wrapping your head around it.

Lex Fridman (2:07:30.300)

I remember when I first trained with Marcelo Garcia in 2007,

Ryan Hall (2:07:32.820)

I was a decent purple belt.

Lex Fridman (2:07:34.380)

And of course he mollywopped me very gently.

Lex Fridman (2:07:36.300)

And then training with him again in 2008,

Lex Fridman (2:07:39.340)

I was definitely better.

Ryan Hall (2:07:40.300)

I won the gi and no gi worlds that you're a purple belt.

Lex Fridman (2:07:42.980)

So definitely for the record,

Ryan Hall (2:07:44.220)

I'm definitely not a jujitsu world champion.

Lex Fridman (2:07:45.540)

I wanted the purple belt,

Lex Fridman (2:07:46.380)

but like, that's not the same at winning a black belt

Lex Fridman (2:07:48.940)

and a tough accomplishment,

Lex Fridman (2:07:50.380)

but not in the same thing at all.

Lex Fridman (2:07:51.900)

But anyway, I was definitely better.

Ryan Hall (2:07:54.940)

He beat me up just the same.

Lex Fridman (2:07:55.940)

I'm like, okay, 2009, I was a lot better.

Ryan Hall (2:07:59.700)

Got a medal at ADCC that time, won the trials,

Lex Fridman (2:08:02.300)

crushed everybody, like no, just submitted everybody

Ryan Hall (2:08:04.940)

like bop, bop, bop, bop.

Lex Fridman (2:08:06.700)

Training with Marcelo Garcia, it was worse.

Lex Fridman (2:08:09.820)

And in 2010, training with Marcelo Garcia, same, same.

Lex Fridman (2:08:13.420)

So the idea was, I wouldn't be able to tell you

Ryan Hall (2:08:17.180)

the difference and the outcome difference

Lex Fridman (2:08:19.420)

was the same in all of these rounds.

Ryan Hall (2:08:20.820)

I was significantly more experienced

Lex Fridman (2:08:22.540)

and more adept each time that this occurred.

Lex Fridman (2:08:25.500)

But it was like, how many number of times

Lex Fridman (2:08:27.260)

did this person submit you or pass your guard in the round?

Ryan Hall (2:08:29.020)

I'm like, I don't know, probably like,

Lex Fridman (2:08:30.300)

let's say five each one,

Ryan Hall (2:08:31.500)

because it's gonna be a brief period of time.

Lex Fridman (2:08:33.020)

And let's say it was three on one,

Ryan Hall (2:08:34.140)

six on another, I'm like, whatever, it's comparable.

Lex Fridman (2:08:35.620)

It's six one and a half dozen.

Lex Fridman (2:08:37.740)

Would I be able to easily tell the difference?

Lex Fridman (2:08:40.340)

No, I would just say, I know in concept

Ryan Hall (2:08:42.300)

that he's way better, so much better.

Lex Fridman (2:08:44.540)

But there's plenty of other people

Ryan Hall (2:08:45.740)

that could have beaten me just as bad as Marcelo did

Lex Fridman (2:08:47.820)

when I was a purple belt or when I was a brown belt.

Ryan Hall (2:08:49.940)

Then maybe I would watch Marcelo walk through

Lex Fridman (2:08:51.660)

like their borderline, not there.

Lex Fridman (2:08:53.300)

So it's neat.

Lex Fridman (2:08:54.340)

Like if you, that's back to kind of what I was talking about

Ryan Hall (2:08:57.020)

about certain people beginning to really like peel back

Lex Fridman (2:08:59.860)

some of what's really special about the martial arts

Ryan Hall (2:09:03.220)

or any activity I presume is they get to a level

Lex Fridman (2:09:06.140)

of understanding in depth that they're playing

Ryan Hall (2:09:08.700)

with like the almost the reality of that thing.

Lex Fridman (2:09:11.580)

And I'm playing by rules that are not rules.

Ryan Hall (2:09:14.220)

I'm not even one of the, to use a matrix analogy,

Lex Fridman (2:09:16.620)

I'm not even an agent, which is the best version

Ryan Hall (2:09:18.860)

of something playing by the rules.

Lex Fridman (2:09:21.260)

I'm like one of the regular people

Ryan Hall (2:09:22.780)

or one of the regular people that got out of the matrix.

Lex Fridman (2:09:25.460)

So I'm like, oh, I'm cool, but when I fight an agent,

Ryan Hall (2:09:27.180)

I lose because we're both in the rules,

Lex Fridman (2:09:29.860)

but they just play them to the bone and I'm just here.

Ryan Hall (2:09:32.580)

Well, and then the agent encounters Neo

Lex Fridman (2:09:34.700)

and they can do nothing.

Lex Fridman (2:09:36.100)

You're like, why?

Lex Fridman (2:09:36.940)

Because it's operating outside of what the rules are,

Lex Fridman (2:09:38.940)

but not really what the rules are,

Lex Fridman (2:09:40.140)

what they perceive to be the rules are clearly.

Lex Fridman (2:09:42.260)

So anyway, I guess that's kind of my point

Lex Fridman (2:09:43.580)

about Marcelo or certain other people

Ryan Hall (2:09:45.060)

that are doing things where you go,

Lex Fridman (2:09:46.020)

that doesn't even seem real.

Ryan Hall (2:09:48.300)

It doesn't seem real to me

Lex Fridman (2:09:49.420)

because I don't understand what's going on.

Lex Fridman (2:09:51.260)

And I guess if we can get down to base assumptions,

Lex Fridman (2:09:53.820)

like if we can constantly strip away, strip away,

Ryan Hall (2:09:55.820)

strip away, let's say we always thought

Lex Fridman (2:09:57.860)

that turning left was right, was correct.

Lex Fridman (2:09:59.620)

And it turns out that turning right was correct.

Lex Fridman (2:10:01.860)

Change your life.

Ryan Hall (2:10:02.940)

Yeah, it's a, what is it, Socrates said,

Lex Fridman (2:10:05.820)

the unexamined life is not worth living.

Lex Fridman (2:10:08.220)

So you just basically have to rigorously

Lex Fridman (2:10:10.740)

just constantly examine every assumption

Ryan Hall (2:10:13.460)

over and over and over.

Lex Fridman (2:10:14.380)

But doesn't that give your life meaning

Ryan Hall (2:10:15.940)

to come back to the struggle,

Lex Fridman (2:10:17.020)

to come back to free will, to come back to,

Lex Fridman (2:10:18.740)

what if we could strip all that away?

Lex Fridman (2:10:20.100)

All right, cool.

Ryan Hall (2:10:20.940)

All right, let me just stick the needle in my arm

Lex Fridman (2:10:22.740)

and that's that.

Ryan Hall (2:10:23.580)

Yeah, no, I mean that constant striving

Lex Fridman (2:10:27.460)

for understanding yet another lower layer

Ryan Hall (2:10:32.580)

of the simulation we're living in

Lex Fridman (2:10:34.460)

is something that's actually deeply fulfilling

Ryan Hall (2:10:38.340)

that I don't know if it's genetically built in,

Lex Fridman (2:10:40.300)

but there's something about that striving to understand

Ryan Hall (2:10:43.100)

that seems to be deeply human.

Lex Fridman (2:10:45.820)

Which is funny, what makes a human,

Ryan Hall (2:10:47.540)

we don't talk about the soul anymore, man.

Lex Fridman (2:10:49.220)

I went to Catholic school as a kid.

Ryan Hall (2:10:50.900)

Whether you buy into all that stuff or not,

Lex Fridman (2:10:52.780)

you're like, what about the soul of a person,

Ryan Hall (2:10:55.420)

the spirit of a people, the spirit of a nation,

Lex Fridman (2:10:58.860)

anywhere, the spirit of humanity?

Ryan Hall (2:11:00.820)

We talk about everything like it's this quantifiable thing

Lex Fridman (2:11:04.140)

when maybe certain things are, maybe everything is,

Lex Fridman (2:11:06.420)

but then what happens if there's things

Lex Fridman (2:11:07.860)

that just aren't quantifiable,

Ryan Hall (2:11:09.900)

that nothing in our understanding can

Lex Fridman (2:11:12.180)

or will ever explain it?

Ryan Hall (2:11:13.100)

That doesn't mean that that should be our assumption.

Lex Fridman (2:11:14.420)

It's for your assumption that we can explain everything

Lex Fridman (2:11:15.940)

and let's get to the dang bottom, peel, peel, peel, peel.

Lex Fridman (2:11:18.380)

But what if there is actually something

Lex Fridman (2:11:20.100)

that we need challenge for?

Lex Fridman (2:11:24.340)

And we could be looking in the wrong place

Lex Fridman (2:11:26.420)

by going, oh, is it in the genes?

Lex Fridman (2:11:28.100)

Maybe it is.

Ryan Hall (2:11:28.940)

Again, I'm not saying we're looking in the wrong place

Lex Fridman (2:11:29.980)

like I would know anything, I do karate.

Lex Fridman (2:11:31.580)

But basically, not even well.

Lex Fridman (2:11:34.460)

But yeah, we do karate, mediocre,

Ryan Hall (2:11:36.860)

just ask Raymond Daniels or Stephen Thompson.

Lex Fridman (2:11:38.460)

But I guess to come back, though, you just.

Lex Fridman (2:11:41.060)

Are you a yellow belt yet, or are you?

Lex Fridman (2:11:43.100)

Man, I actually, have you ever seen the Seinfeld episode

Lex Fridman (2:11:45.300)

where Kramer fights the kids?

Lex Fridman (2:11:47.260)

Yeah, I did that at Raymond Daniels school

Lex Fridman (2:11:48.980)

and the kids won in class in addition to the alleyway.

Lex Fridman (2:11:53.140)

Oh, they finished it off afterwards.

Ryan Hall (2:11:55.780)

Yeah, exactly, when I was on my last legs.

Lex Fridman (2:11:58.060)

But yeah, I would just, maybe, it's funny,

Ryan Hall (2:12:02.180)

I feel like there's something deeply missing

Lex Fridman (2:12:04.060)

from public understanding anymore.

Ryan Hall (2:12:07.060)

It's almost like the idea that we can figure everything out,

Lex Fridman (2:12:09.860)

which I deeply believe in, but also the possibility

Ryan Hall (2:12:12.500)

that there's some things that we'll never really see

Lex Fridman (2:12:14.740)

and some things we'll never understand.

Lex Fridman (2:12:15.860)

And there's something, like you said,

Lex Fridman (2:12:17.860)

uniquely human about the human experience,

Ryan Hall (2:12:20.340)

that even if I had the power to change,

Lex Fridman (2:12:23.900)

I don't wanna fuck with it, man.

Ryan Hall (2:12:25.340)

I don't wanna change that thing.

Lex Fridman (2:12:27.100)

Oh, yeah, well, wouldn't it be great

Ryan Hall (2:12:28.580)

if we just immediately knew the outcome of everything

Lex Fridman (2:12:31.100)

and you just press this button, you're like,

Lex Fridman (2:12:32.420)

oh, that's gonna, what's the point of living life then?

Lex Fridman (2:12:34.260)

Even if you could do it, it's the,

Ryan Hall (2:12:35.820)

Ian, you've seen Jurassic Park, I'll leave you to be sorry,

Lex Fridman (2:12:37.300)

I know what I'm talking about.

Lex Fridman (2:12:38.260)

Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park, Jeff Goldblum, right?

Lex Fridman (2:12:40.700)

Life finds a way.

Lex Fridman (2:12:43.300)

But we were so concerned with whether or not we could,

Lex Fridman (2:12:46.420)

we didn't stop to think whether or not we should.

Lex Fridman (2:12:49.740)

Maybe?

Lex Fridman (2:12:50.780)

I think there's, I mean, it's a deeply human thing,

Lex Fridman (2:12:54.420)

but it's also a really useful thing

Lex Fridman (2:12:56.260)

to always kind of assume that there's this giant thing

Ryan Hall (2:12:59.860)

that you don't understand.

Lex Fridman (2:13:01.620)

So you can forever be striving to understand

Ryan Hall (2:13:04.460)

because that process gives you meaning,

Lex Fridman (2:13:07.980)

but also keeps making you better.

Ryan Hall (2:13:10.220)

Like thinking that, actually even just thinking

Lex Fridman (2:13:12.620)

that you can't understand everything

Ryan Hall (2:13:15.220)

will lead you to stop too early.

Lex Fridman (2:13:19.700)

So like, I think there's something to,

Ryan Hall (2:13:23.060)

whether it's the soul or whether it's like religious stuff,

Lex Fridman (2:13:25.860)

like assuming that there's this thing

Ryan Hall (2:13:28.220)

that you cannot possibly understand

Lex Fridman (2:13:30.260)

is a really good assumption under which to operate

Lex Fridman (2:13:33.300)

and under which to do this first principles kind of thinking

Lex Fridman (2:13:36.060)

because you can just keep digging and keep digging,

Ryan Hall (2:13:38.060)

keep digging even when it seems like you're at the bottom

Lex Fridman (2:13:40.580)

because you don't fucking know

Ryan Hall (2:13:41.620)

if you're at the bottom or not.

Lex Fridman (2:13:42.900)

And back to one of our, I guess our other kind of tangents

Ryan Hall (2:13:46.740)

was that comes back to everyone's a human being.

Lex Fridman (2:13:49.260)

The smartest human being in the history of humanity

Ryan Hall (2:13:52.420)

is so hilariously weak, like short lived and not intelligent.

Lex Fridman (2:13:57.740)

Do it for yourself, bro.

Ryan Hall (2:13:58.620)

I understand.

Lex Fridman (2:13:59.460)

I didn't say, no, I'm not saying comparison to me.

Ryan Hall (2:14:00.980)

In comparison to me, everyone is awesome,

Lex Fridman (2:14:02.860)

but that's why I don't do the goat thing.

Lex Fridman (2:14:04.980)

But basically, it's just on a cosmic level.

Lex Fridman (2:14:09.380)

Can you imagine if you were a vampire,

Ryan Hall (2:14:10.660)

you're like 900 years old, like how much you would seem,

Lex Fridman (2:14:12.820)

you would seem like a lowercase G God to people.

Lex Fridman (2:14:15.940)

You'd be like, how could you know so much?

Lex Fridman (2:14:18.580)

How can you have such a long view perspective?

Ryan Hall (2:14:20.580)

It would be insane.

Lex Fridman (2:14:21.900)

So I mean, it seems like we're talking about AI now, right?

Ryan Hall (2:14:24.380)

Where we're creating things that are infinitely smarter

Lex Fridman (2:14:26.580)

than us effectively and live all this time

Lex Fridman (2:14:28.540)

and it's probably gonna do what we tell it to do, right?

Lex Fridman (2:14:31.400)

No, it's probably, well, I hope it keeps us around.

Lex Fridman (2:14:34.380)

Do you, by the way, think about AI

Lex Fridman (2:14:37.260)

and the existential threats?

Ryan Hall (2:14:38.700)

Like speaking of gods, are you, is this whole

Lex Fridman (2:14:43.620)

technological world, we talked about social networks

Lex Fridman (2:14:45.900)

and this increasing power of technology around us,

Lex Fridman (2:14:49.660)

we ourselves are becoming less human

Ryan Hall (2:14:51.740)

because we keep relying on technology more and more.

Lex Fridman (2:14:56.580)

So we're becoming kinds of cyborgs,

Lex Fridman (2:14:59.040)

but also there's a future that's quite possible

Lex Fridman (2:15:03.760)

where the technology becomes smarter

Lex Fridman (2:15:06.780)

and more powerful than us humans

Lex Fridman (2:15:09.620)

and starts having a life of its own

Ryan Hall (2:15:14.380)

in ways that perhaps we don't imagine as human beings.

Lex Fridman (2:15:16.900)

I don't just mean like two legged robots walking around

Lex Fridman (2:15:20.260)

and being humans, but smarter.

Lex Fridman (2:15:22.260)

I mean like an intelligent life that's beyond

Lex Fridman (2:15:30.500)

and fundamentally different than our human life.

Lex Fridman (2:15:34.780)

It's infinite, it's a new kind of species,

Ryan Hall (2:15:41.420)

not even just a new species, we're talking about systems,

Lex Fridman (2:15:43.860)

but like it lives in the space of information.

Ryan Hall (2:15:47.460)

It lives in a different time scale

Lex Fridman (2:15:50.660)

and a different scale of all sorts, spatial scale.

Ryan Hall (2:15:53.820)

It operate, like we spoke about individuals,

Lex Fridman (2:15:57.700)

it doesn't operate in the sense of a single individual,

Ryan Hall (2:16:00.100)

like it's not embodied.

Lex Fridman (2:16:02.420)

So it's not like a thing that walks around

Lex Fridman (2:16:04.740)

and it like, it looks at stuff and it consumes the world.

Lex Fridman (2:16:08.020)

It's able to do much larger scale sensing

Ryan Hall (2:16:11.900)

of the environment around it, all that kind of stuff.

Lex Fridman (2:16:14.620)

I can barely even try to,

Ryan Hall (2:16:16.260)

I can barely even conceive of what that would be like.

Lex Fridman (2:16:18.060)

Are you scared or are you excited?

Ryan Hall (2:16:20.560)

I don't define scared or excited.

Lex Fridman (2:16:23.300)

I feel like I tend to define them like the same way

Ryan Hall (2:16:26.060)

where I'm like, I guess I'm.

Lex Fridman (2:16:29.540)

Kind of like when before karaoke, it's the same.

Ryan Hall (2:16:32.220)

Well, that's actually kind of my happy place.

Lex Fridman (2:16:33.980)

It's not so much everyone else's.

Ryan Hall (2:16:35.700)

You know, it's a, everyone else is probably, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:16:37.980)

heading for the door at that point.

Lex Fridman (2:16:39.260)

But you know, it's a.

Lex Fridman (2:16:40.100)

While you're doing it or leading up to the karaoke session.

Ryan Hall (2:16:43.580)

Well, it depends whether or not they know it's me.

Lex Fridman (2:16:46.220)

If they know it's me, that's before I start.

Lex Fridman (2:16:48.020)

If they're like, who's that guy?

Lex Fridman (2:16:49.560)

Then they're like halfway through the song,

Ryan Hall (2:16:50.860)

they're already throwing their beer.

Lex Fridman (2:16:52.660)

What categories of song or particular song

Lex Fridman (2:16:54.820)

are we talking about in terms of like your happy place?

Lex Fridman (2:16:57.100)

Oh man, are you kidding me?

Ryan Hall (2:16:58.140)

I mean, obviously, Bohemian Rhapsody.

Lex Fridman (2:16:59.600)

I mean, there's no question because, oh yeah,

Ryan Hall (2:17:01.300)

because I don't have to sing it here.

Lex Fridman (2:17:02.180)

It's that, it's like, remember, can I beat Khabib?

Ryan Hall (2:17:03.960)

Oh yeah, of course.

Lex Fridman (2:17:04.800)

Is he here?

Lex Fridman (2:17:05.640)

No?

Lex Fridman (2:17:06.460)

Yeah, then yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:17:07.300)

All right, if he's here, is he here?

Lex Fridman (2:17:08.140)

No, then I, no.

Ryan Hall (2:17:08.960)

I have a torn, I have torn feelings about Bohemian Rhapsody

Lex Fridman (2:17:12.100)

because I like the beginning part, the sadness.

Ryan Hall (2:17:13.900)

I like the solo, the heartbreak.

Lex Fridman (2:17:16.700)

But the second part, I understand it, but it's so ridiculous.

Ryan Hall (2:17:19.380)

It gets ridiculous.

Lex Fridman (2:17:20.220)

It's so ridiculous.

Ryan Hall (2:17:21.060)

It ruins it for me.

Lex Fridman (2:17:21.900)

But it's more about flexing on people.

Ryan Hall (2:17:23.300)

I think if you can actually hit that,

Lex Fridman (2:17:25.140)

hit that, you know, the falsetto.

Ryan Hall (2:17:26.860)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:17:27.700)

So it's, it's not, okay.

Lex Fridman (2:17:30.100)

So you appreciate not for the musical beauty

Lex Fridman (2:17:32.980)

and complexity of the song, you just like to flex on people.

Ryan Hall (2:17:35.220)

Cause like for all, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:17:36.100)

Like what's the purpose of, of anything

Ryan Hall (2:17:37.980)

except for just to let everyone know

Lex Fridman (2:17:39.860)

that you think you're cool.

Lex Fridman (2:17:43.500)

And there's no better way of doing that than karaoke.

Lex Fridman (2:17:45.580)

So I'm not sure why I brought up karaoke.

Ryan Hall (2:17:47.340)

Captive audience.

Lex Fridman (2:17:48.220)

Yeah, exactly.

Ryan Hall (2:17:49.060)

Oh, about fear and excitement of artificial intelligence.

Lex Fridman (2:17:51.540)

I mean, like, you know me, I don't know anything about,

Ryan Hall (2:17:53.580)

I just, basically I don't,

Lex Fridman (2:17:55.620)

I don't understand the implications of any of this.

Ryan Hall (2:17:58.260)

I would just say that like radically altering

Lex Fridman (2:18:00.780)

what it means to be human in such an unbelievably short

Ryan Hall (2:18:03.220)

period of time just seems like such a crazy thing.

Lex Fridman (2:18:06.120)

And also it's not like we're, I can't remember

Ryan Hall (2:18:08.140)

who said this to me recently.

Lex Fridman (2:18:08.980)

It might've been me.

Ryan Hall (2:18:09.800)

I can't remember.

Lex Fridman (2:18:10.640)

So this is definitely not my idea, but we're,

Lex Fridman (2:18:13.220)

we're not even going, Hey, would you like to opt in everyone?

Lex Fridman (2:18:17.900)

Everyone is being opted in, you know?

Lex Fridman (2:18:20.340)

And particularly when you want to talk about

Lex Fridman (2:18:21.940)

like large scale robotics or large scale AI,

Ryan Hall (2:18:24.580)

like the world is changing.

Lex Fridman (2:18:25.820)

People in Senegal are opting in right now

Ryan Hall (2:18:28.060)

without realizing it.

Lex Fridman (2:18:28.980)

It's not even like, and again,

Ryan Hall (2:18:29.940)

I don't mean to pick on Senegal.

Lex Fridman (2:18:31.060)

It's just whatever country comes up to mind,

Lex Fridman (2:18:32.660)

but that's in the developing world.

Lex Fridman (2:18:33.800)

But basically, you know,

Ryan Hall (2:18:36.260)

recognizing that this huge shift is coming,

Lex Fridman (2:18:40.800)

we have no idea if this is a decent idea.

Lex Fridman (2:18:42.700)

And also something else I've always been considered is,

Lex Fridman (2:18:45.820)

you know, you think about most of the really awful, awful,

Ryan Hall (2:18:49.100)

awful things that have done in history,

Lex Fridman (2:18:51.180)

large scale slavery, holly, you name it.

Ryan Hall (2:18:54.260)

It didn't, people say that it came from this motivation

Lex Fridman (2:18:57.500)

or that motivation.

Ryan Hall (2:18:58.340)

Maybe it did, maybe it didn't.

Lex Fridman (2:18:59.460)

Fundamentally, the issue, at least in my mind,

Ryan Hall (2:19:01.300)

I'm not a historian, power differential.

Lex Fridman (2:19:05.060)

If you and I can't contest, we don't contend.

Ryan Hall (2:19:08.780)

It's not like we fight and you might win or we fight,

Lex Fridman (2:19:11.160)

even you'll win comfortably.

Ryan Hall (2:19:12.700)

It's you are so unbelievably powerful compared to me

Lex Fridman (2:19:15.940)

that there's nothing I can do to stop you.

Ryan Hall (2:19:18.780)

That seems like a recipe for something

Lex Fridman (2:19:20.300)

really, really not great happening.

Ryan Hall (2:19:22.020)

Because if you think about like, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:19:24.780)

European countries encountering each other,

Lex Fridman (2:19:26.540)

and I'm just speculating,

Lex Fridman (2:19:27.360)

I don't know anything about history,

Ryan Hall (2:19:28.200)

let's say countries that can contend with one another

Lex Fridman (2:19:31.060)

versus countries that can't.

Ryan Hall (2:19:34.260)

Let's say an alien species, an alien race shows up,

Lex Fridman (2:19:37.220)

you know, right now, we don't want that.

Ryan Hall (2:19:38.660)

I think Stephen Hawking said that,

Lex Fridman (2:19:39.500)

and it makes perfect sense to me.

Ryan Hall (2:19:41.040)

We don't want that.

Lex Fridman (2:19:41.880)

If you can come here, we better hope you're nice.

Lex Fridman (2:19:44.860)

Because what are we gonna do?

Lex Fridman (2:19:46.100)

What are we gonna hope that you invade the water planet

Ryan Hall (2:19:47.900)

like they did in, you know, what are the,

Lex Fridman (2:19:50.060)

Lord of the, yeah, War of the Worlds.

Lex Fridman (2:19:51.700)

So I guess what I'm trying to get across is like,

Lex Fridman (2:19:53.620)

shocking levels of power differential between groups

Ryan Hall (2:19:56.460)

that makes the world ripe for horrific abuse

Lex Fridman (2:19:59.700)

in the event that someone decides to do it.

Ryan Hall (2:20:01.800)

It's like, like you imagine an adult hitting a child,

Lex Fridman (2:20:04.540)

like hitting, hitting a child,

Ryan Hall (2:20:05.740)

no one in their right mind would ever go like,

Lex Fridman (2:20:07.140)

oh yeah, that's a great idea.

Ryan Hall (2:20:08.420)

Because it's such an, it's so grossly imbalanced.

Lex Fridman (2:20:11.380)

You're like, this is wrong.

Lex Fridman (2:20:12.940)

But it's also on the table

Lex Fridman (2:20:14.220)

only because of the gross imbalance.

Lex Fridman (2:20:16.340)

So I guess to come back, it's like,

Lex Fridman (2:20:18.100)

whether we create AI and it's on some crazy level

Ryan Hall (2:20:21.600)

of its own, or it's I'm in charge of it,

Lex Fridman (2:20:24.260)

or I just, it seems like we're creating,

Ryan Hall (2:20:27.580)

you mentioned like a game theory and nuclear war,

Lex Fridman (2:20:31.340)

what prevented nuclear war?

Ryan Hall (2:20:32.860)

I mean, presumably mutually assured destruction.

Lex Fridman (2:20:35.880)

I mean, hopefully also humanity and the humanity

Lex Fridman (2:20:38.540)

and the reasonable, you know, cooler heads prevailing

Lex Fridman (2:20:40.940)

and going, hey, I can understand the veil of ignorance.

Lex Fridman (2:20:43.860)

And I don't go, oh yeah, let me kill those guys

Lex Fridman (2:20:46.140)

because I can't, I go, this is wrong, period.

Lex Fridman (2:20:48.260)

And in concept, this is not an action I should take,

Lex Fridman (2:20:51.740)

but it's also nice and easy to keep me honest

Ryan Hall (2:20:54.020)

if I know that I can't get you without being got myself.

Lex Fridman (2:20:56.980)

But what happens when I can get anyone anything

Lex Fridman (2:21:00.980)

and I'm more or less untouchable?

Lex Fridman (2:21:02.540)

Like that seems to me to be like various times

Lex Fridman (2:21:05.740)

in colonial history, you know what I mean?

Lex Fridman (2:21:07.440)

And what happened, we know what happened.

Lex Fridman (2:21:09.540)

But so the possibility of really bad things

Lex Fridman (2:21:14.580)

are plentiful, the possibilities.

Lex Fridman (2:21:17.220)

But the possibilities of really positive things

Lex Fridman (2:21:20.580)

are plentiful.

Lex Fridman (2:21:21.420)

Like what though?

Lex Fridman (2:21:22.380)

I'm not saying wrong.

Ryan Hall (2:21:23.220)

I'm just telling you though.

Lex Fridman (2:21:24.060)

So I can give a million examples.

Ryan Hall (2:21:25.700)

One is just the examples of the parent and the child.

Lex Fridman (2:21:30.300)

You said there's a power differential there

Lex Fridman (2:21:34.600)

and we don't like a parent hitting their child.

Lex Fridman (2:21:39.260)

What about not just hitting, like beating?

Ryan Hall (2:21:41.060)

Beating, yeah, great.

Lex Fridman (2:21:43.140)

Beating their child.

Lex Fridman (2:21:44.740)

How often percentage wise do you see that happening?

Lex Fridman (2:21:49.120)

Even though that power differential,

Ryan Hall (2:21:52.540)

first of all, other people's kids,

Lex Fridman (2:21:54.980)

let's just put this on the table.

Ryan Hall (2:21:56.580)

I love kids, but other people's kids

Lex Fridman (2:21:58.820)

can be annoying sometimes.

Ryan Hall (2:22:00.540)

Sometimes you gotta deal out some justice, I get it.

Lex Fridman (2:22:03.860)

But we don't practice, we don't take advantage

Ryan Hall (2:22:06.180)

of that power differential.

Lex Fridman (2:22:07.740)

So like there is ethics, there's moralities that emerge

Ryan Hall (2:22:11.600)

that allow the power differential to be used for good

Lex Fridman (2:22:15.380)

versus for bad.

Lex Fridman (2:22:16.640)

So like one of the assumptions with Stephen Hawking

Lex Fridman (2:22:20.660)

or with if Russia became much more powerful than America

Ryan Hall (2:22:24.860)

or America much more powerful than Russia in the Cold War,

Lex Fridman (2:22:28.140)

your assumption that immediately that power differential,

Ryan Hall (2:22:31.140)

not your assumption, but it would express itself

Lex Fridman (2:22:33.140)

would express itself in the same way

Ryan Hall (2:22:36.900)

that it was trying to express itself

Lex Fridman (2:22:38.460)

when there was a more level competition.

Lex Fridman (2:22:41.500)

But it's also possible when the power differential grows,

Lex Fridman (2:22:44.320)

the incentive, the joy, whatever the mechanisms

Ryan Hall (2:22:47.580)

that made sense when it was at the same level,

Lex Fridman (2:22:51.820)

the incentives become very different.

Ryan Hall (2:22:54.260)

It's not as fun to destroy the ant colony.

Lex Fridman (2:22:56.980)

You start becoming more the kind of a conservationalist.

Lex Fridman (2:23:01.420)

One hopes, that's an evolved perspective though, yeah?

Lex Fridman (2:23:04.060)

Well, I don't know if it's evolved or not,

Lex Fridman (2:23:06.100)

but it's definitely a possibility.

Lex Fridman (2:23:07.460)

It's unclear to me that something that's many orders

Ryan Hall (2:23:10.300)

of magnitude more powerful than us will want to destroy us.

Lex Fridman (2:23:14.700)

Well, I mean, how did mass slavery occur?

Lex Fridman (2:23:18.420)

How did, you know, like just big dogs playing with not?

Lex Fridman (2:23:22.380)

I think slavery and a lot of the atrocities in history

Ryan Hall (2:23:29.660)

happened when the power differential was not as great

Lex Fridman (2:23:32.780)

as we're talking about with AI potentially.

Lex Fridman (2:23:35.820)

Is that not somehow worse then?

Lex Fridman (2:23:38.500)

It's not obvious to me.

Ryan Hall (2:23:39.420)

It's not obvious that things that are way more powerful.

Lex Fridman (2:23:43.180)

That's fair, okay.

Lex Fridman (2:23:44.020)

So I think you're.

Lex Fridman (2:23:45.380)

I guess, how do you restrain it though?

Ryan Hall (2:23:47.700)

There's a lot of different discussions of how to.

Lex Fridman (2:23:51.380)

I guess even restrain each other.

Ryan Hall (2:23:52.300)

Cause let's say I go and decide to strike someone's child,

Lex Fridman (2:23:54.180)

which I'd like to think I wouldn't do.

Ryan Hall (2:23:55.900)

I will be promptly, I will find myself in front of a judge.

Lex Fridman (2:23:59.380)

And so I feel like there's a lot.

Lex Fridman (2:24:01.060)

Can you imagine how many people used to get murdered

Lex Fridman (2:24:03.460)

just in the woods?

Ryan Hall (2:24:04.420)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:24:05.260)

I mean, I would just presume it's a lot, you know?

Lex Fridman (2:24:08.100)

And I don't think most people are lunatics like that,

Lex Fridman (2:24:10.980)

but I would just say.

Lex Fridman (2:24:11.820)

But that's the point.

Lex Fridman (2:24:12.660)

Given though, if you're given to that,

Ryan Hall (2:24:14.220)

your ability to get away with it was greater in the past

Lex Fridman (2:24:17.220)

because of chance of detection was less.

Lex Fridman (2:24:19.620)

So that doesn't, I don't know.

Lex Fridman (2:24:21.420)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ryan Hall (2:24:22.260)

This is what that's called in artificial intelligence,

Lex Fridman (2:24:24.460)

AI safety research called value alignment of ensuring

Ryan Hall (2:24:29.140)

as you build the systems that become smarter and smarter

Lex Fridman (2:24:32.380)

and more powerful and powerful,

Ryan Hall (2:24:33.940)

make sure that their values are aligned with the entities

Lex Fridman (2:24:38.260)

over which they're becoming powerful with humans.

Lex Fridman (2:24:40.580)

So if you were to talk to an AI that's becoming smarter,

Lex Fridman (2:24:43.900)

at first it's dumber than you,

Lex Fridman (2:24:45.100)

but then it's becoming smarter and smarter.

Lex Fridman (2:24:47.460)

You have to create mechanisms

Ryan Hall (2:24:50.540)

where you both value the same things.

Lex Fridman (2:24:52.620)

I guess one thing I wonder,

Lex Fridman (2:24:54.020)

so I guess I'm probably not like sharp enough to grasp this

Lex Fridman (2:24:57.660)

if I'm honest, but I guess like, I wonder like,

Ryan Hall (2:25:00.220)

I used to do chess programs.

Lex Fridman (2:25:01.580)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (2:25:02.820)

You know, it was Deep Blue, Stockfish,

Lex Fridman (2:25:04.980)

and then like AlphaZero and AlphaZero teaching itself

Ryan Hall (2:25:07.980)

to beat Stockfish without any help in four hours.

Lex Fridman (2:25:12.140)

Yeah, yeah.

Ryan Hall (2:25:12.980)

Like it becomes orders of magnitude more intelligence

Lex Fridman (2:25:15.860)

than us in effectively in instantaneous period.

Ryan Hall (2:25:19.300)

I guess what I always wondered,

Lex Fridman (2:25:20.540)

like if you were that much smarter than me,

Ryan Hall (2:25:24.580)

I feel like your ability to manipulate me

Lex Fridman (2:25:26.220)

would be pretty significant or at least potentially, no?

Lex Fridman (2:25:28.540)

But manipulation implies that the incentive is

Lex Fridman (2:25:34.660)

to overpower everything around you.

Ryan Hall (2:25:37.540)

Like there's implied incentives.

Lex Fridman (2:25:39.620)

If your value is to actually, like,

Ryan Hall (2:25:45.620)

it depends what you want in life.

Lex Fridman (2:25:47.460)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (2:25:48.300)

What you want in your system.

Lex Fridman (2:25:49.620)

It's not clear that the goal of an AI system

Ryan Hall (2:25:53.060)

that's all powerful is to destroy all humans.

Lex Fridman (2:25:55.940)

No, I don't think that it is either.

Ryan Hall (2:25:57.700)

I guess what I'm...

Lex Fridman (2:25:58.540)

Or even enslave all humans.

Ryan Hall (2:26:00.460)

That's fair.

Lex Fridman (2:26:01.300)

I guess what I'm trying to suggest

Ryan Hall (2:26:02.340)

is that something adequately powerful,

Lex Fridman (2:26:04.580)

these actions are on the table.

Ryan Hall (2:26:06.580)

Yes, they're on the table and that's scary.

Lex Fridman (2:26:08.340)

And that's why a lot of people are really concerned about it

Lex Fridman (2:26:10.500)

and are working on it.

Lex Fridman (2:26:12.020)

I'm just trying to make the case for AGI

Ryan Hall (2:26:15.060)

because if they're watching this, he's the one to kill.

Lex Fridman (2:26:19.980)

No, actually I was thinking, I was, yeah.

Ryan Hall (2:26:23.420)

I wash toilets like really well.

Lex Fridman (2:26:28.100)

No, I mean, that's the main concern

Ryan Hall (2:26:30.300)

for all the people in the AI state to research.

Lex Fridman (2:26:32.580)

People talk about AGI is,

Ryan Hall (2:26:34.740)

it's kind of disturbing how little people are working

Lex Fridman (2:26:40.700)

on trying to create mechanisms

Ryan Hall (2:26:44.700)

that keep AI's values aligned with ours.

Lex Fridman (2:26:48.300)

That's completely unshocking.

Ryan Hall (2:26:50.620)

Yeah, we humans seem to do only good

Lex Fridman (2:26:53.460)

when like, you know, you even look at like coronavirus.

Ryan Hall (2:26:57.820)

It's like when, like the water has to be leaking

Lex Fridman (2:27:02.020)

from the ceiling.

Ryan Hall (2:27:03.020)

You have to be, there has to be blood everywhere,

Lex Fridman (2:27:05.860)

fire, just destruction.

Ryan Hall (2:27:08.700)

We just seem to ignore completely any trouble.

Lex Fridman (2:27:12.660)

Writing all over the wall.

Ryan Hall (2:27:13.980)

Writing all over the wall.

Lex Fridman (2:27:15.660)

This is fine.

Ryan Hall (2:27:16.500)

Yeah, I'm sure nothing to see here, we'll be okay.

Lex Fridman (2:27:19.180)

But we do all right, especially in the United States.

Ryan Hall (2:27:21.300)

You figure out even when it becomes a really serious problem,

Lex Fridman (2:27:25.860)

taking actions last minute,

Ryan Hall (2:27:27.940)

there's something about the innovative spirit

Lex Fridman (2:27:30.860)

that results in a solution last minute,

Ryan Hall (2:27:34.020)

right before the deadline.

Lex Fridman (2:27:35.380)

It works out.

Ryan Hall (2:27:36.220)

Well, I mean, I don't know how you did school,

Lex Fridman (2:27:37.820)

probably a lot better than me.

Ryan Hall (2:27:38.660)

No, that's exactly how I did school.

Lex Fridman (2:27:40.380)

I couldn't be more, I was no motivation up

Ryan Hall (2:27:42.100)

until like the last, if you're like,

Lex Fridman (2:27:43.420)

we have 22 hours to do the entire semesters of work.

Ryan Hall (2:27:46.740)

Like, let's do this.

Lex Fridman (2:27:48.060)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:27:48.900)

And you get like 19 fricking Mountain Dews and then, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:27:51.660)

Well, that's why you and I are failures in life

Ryan Hall (2:27:53.900)

because I just talked to, I mentioned Cal Newport

Lex Fridman (2:27:56.700)

with his book, Deep Work and so on.

Ryan Hall (2:28:00.860)

He is of the variety of these creatures

Lex Fridman (2:28:03.380)

that basically does everything ahead of time.

Ryan Hall (2:28:06.980)

That's shocking.

Lex Fridman (2:28:07.820)

Because he dislikes the, he thinks it's unproductive

Ryan Hall (2:28:13.980)

to experience the stress and anxiety of the deadline

Lex Fridman (2:28:17.780)

because you're not going to be your best performance wise

Lex Fridman (2:28:21.980)

and you're not going to do the best work.

Lex Fridman (2:28:23.900)

So it doesn't make any, it's completely irrational

Ryan Hall (2:28:27.060)

to a function based on the deadline.

Lex Fridman (2:28:29.300)

You should have a system, a process that gets stuff,

Ryan Hall (2:28:31.820)

a little bit of stuff done every day.

Lex Fridman (2:28:33.660)

So like you should be, and constantly be systematically

Ryan Hall (2:28:37.580)

honest with yourself.

Lex Fridman (2:28:38.620)

If you say, I'm going to get this stuff done today

Lex Fridman (2:28:40.900)

and this week, at the end of the day,

Lex Fridman (2:28:42.860)

at the end of the week, you have to then reflect

Ryan Hall (2:28:44.900)

on what you did, what you planned and improve that plan,

Lex Fridman (2:28:48.220)

update it constantly, update every day, every week,

Ryan Hall (2:28:50.580)

every quarter, whatever those durations are.

Lex Fridman (2:28:53.900)

As I'm listening to this and reading his stuff,

Ryan Hall (2:28:55.940)

it's like, oh, yeah, I agree with everything.

Lex Fridman (2:28:58.020)

I'm like, yes, I'm clapping.

Lex Fridman (2:29:00.060)

But like the reality is, and then I go back

Lex Fridman (2:29:02.180)

and just eat Cheetos and like, don't do shit

Ryan Hall (2:29:05.100)

until like the last minute.

Lex Fridman (2:29:05.940)

It ain't meant to be cheesy.

Ryan Hall (2:29:10.180)

Actually, I don't eat Cheetos, but yes.

Lex Fridman (2:29:11.820)

But actually, again, not that it's ever going to matter

Ryan Hall (2:29:15.660)

because he's so shockingly productive and well thought out

Lex Fridman (2:29:17.900)

that whatever I've decided to think about

Ryan Hall (2:29:19.420)

trying to monkey wrench in there

Lex Fridman (2:29:20.780)

is definitely going to be able to deal with.

Lex Fridman (2:29:22.940)

But it's funny that again, because you're a human being,

Lex Fridman (2:29:24.980)

not a God, all of your strengths

Ryan Hall (2:29:26.580)

are you have a corresponding weakness.

Lex Fridman (2:29:28.580)

The less you practice working under the gun,

Ryan Hall (2:29:30.540)

the less comfortable you are working under the gun.

Lex Fridman (2:29:32.580)

The more practice you have working under the gun,

Ryan Hall (2:29:34.220)

the better you get at it.

Lex Fridman (2:29:35.060)

The downside is you're always working under the gun.

Lex Fridman (2:29:36.900)

So you're less productive or it's like your work quality

Lex Fridman (2:29:39.180)

maybe drops.

Lex Fridman (2:29:40.100)

So it's an interesting thing.

Lex Fridman (2:29:41.180)

It's like, it's almost like, hey, I wonder if this,

Ryan Hall (2:29:43.220)

I wonder if Khabib Nurmagomedov has a lot of heart

Lex Fridman (2:29:45.660)

and I try to say the answer is almost certainly yes,

Lex Fridman (2:29:47.780)

but you go, well, he hasn't struggled a bunch.

Lex Fridman (2:29:49.860)

Maybe he doesn't struggle well.

Lex Fridman (2:29:51.420)

And it just so happens that he can also work under the gun

Lex Fridman (2:29:53.300)

really well, he just doesn't like to do it.

Lex Fridman (2:29:55.060)

But yeah, but it's an interesting thing.

Lex Fridman (2:29:56.700)

It's like, I guess, what is it?

Ryan Hall (2:29:57.740)

The Aristotle, we are what we repeatedly do.

Lex Fridman (2:29:59.580)

We are all, we're all practicing something all the time.

Lex Fridman (2:30:02.940)

So I guess it's, it's funny.

Lex Fridman (2:30:04.100)

I guess that's the question that I have though.

Ryan Hall (2:30:05.420)

I would love to ask him, it'd be really neat

Lex Fridman (2:30:08.100)

is in certain jobs.

Ryan Hall (2:30:10.940)

I mean, obviously you want to have preparation always,

Lex Fridman (2:30:13.260)

always, but certain things have like a degree of like

Ryan Hall (2:30:16.340)

entropy in the system and you go,

Lex Fridman (2:30:19.140)

I need to practice working under the gun.

Lex Fridman (2:30:21.740)

And I'm not saying that's what I need to do

Lex Fridman (2:30:22.940)

because the fighting, it should be for the most part,

Ryan Hall (2:30:24.860)

it's a really sterile environment.

Lex Fridman (2:30:26.180)

In the grand scheme of things,

Ryan Hall (2:30:27.020)

like fighting in a cage is very sterile

Lex Fridman (2:30:28.700)

compared to most other things in life, right?

Lex Fridman (2:30:30.660)

But dangerous, but sterile.

Lex Fridman (2:30:32.940)

And unless of course, like, you know,

Ryan Hall (2:30:35.420)

like the other guy, the ref decides to hit you,

Lex Fridman (2:30:37.500)

which would be hilarious.

Lex Fridman (2:30:38.340)

But anyway, I guess just going like, okay,

Lex Fridman (2:30:40.500)

so at what value do you get out of adding a degree of,

Ryan Hall (2:30:45.220)

let's say you could even be planned by someone else,

Lex Fridman (2:30:47.580)

but junk in the system.

Lex Fridman (2:30:49.900)

And you just have to work under the gun to make it happen.

Lex Fridman (2:30:52.020)

Let's say for instance, for like police

Ryan Hall (2:30:53.460)

or something like that, the situation turns left hard

Lex Fridman (2:30:56.140)

at some random point in time.

Lex Fridman (2:30:57.860)

And that could happen to any number of people.

Lex Fridman (2:31:00.020)

So I guess it's interesting things that allow

Ryan Hall (2:31:01.940)

for perfect planning or quasi perfect planning

Lex Fridman (2:31:04.020)

versus things that are inherently unstable.

Lex Fridman (2:31:06.420)

And then what are the,

Lex Fridman (2:31:07.580)

what's the psychological fallout of comfort with that?

Ryan Hall (2:31:10.780)

Because I think a lot of people that are really comfortable

Lex Fridman (2:31:12.340)

under the gun, let it happen a lot.

Lex Fridman (2:31:15.620)

For all the good and the bad of that, does that make sense?

Lex Fridman (2:31:17.340)

No, that totally makes sense.

Lex Fridman (2:31:18.620)

And it was, I mean, his answer would be

Lex Fridman (2:31:20.940)

that you have to be honest with yourself

Ryan Hall (2:31:23.780)

if it's valuable for your success

Lex Fridman (2:31:26.660)

to practice being under the gun.

Lex Fridman (2:31:29.140)

And then you should schedule that.

Lex Fridman (2:31:30.900)

Yeah, then he's smart.

Ryan Hall (2:31:31.980)

You should plan that, you should systematically.

Lex Fridman (2:31:34.460)

And then as opposed to doing it half assedly,

Ryan Hall (2:31:37.020)

because it's, as opposed to letting the environment

Lex Fridman (2:31:39.740)

choose the randomness, like control the randomness

Ryan Hall (2:31:43.460)

to where like you optimize it.

Lex Fridman (2:31:46.060)

I wish it's so efficient, it's shocking

Ryan Hall (2:31:48.140)

just to hear about it.

Lex Fridman (2:31:49.060)

Yeah, no, he's, I mean, the same way you are,

Ryan Hall (2:31:52.620)

he's annoying in the same way,

Lex Fridman (2:31:53.700)

which is like he drops truth bombs.

Ryan Hall (2:31:56.460)

It's like, yeah, yeah, that's so true.

Lex Fridman (2:31:59.500)

Yeah, we're probably comparably doing that.

Ryan Hall (2:32:02.740)

No, he does.

Lex Fridman (2:32:05.140)

But he's, so he, his profession requires that.

Lex Fridman (2:32:07.780)

So he's not just like a motivational speaker or whatever.

Lex Fridman (2:32:09.860)

He's a theoretical computer scientist

Lex Fridman (2:32:14.300)

and he needs the long hours in the day

Lex Fridman (2:32:18.060)

of doing like serious math.

Lex Fridman (2:32:19.780)

So it's mostly math proofs.

Lex Fridman (2:32:21.540)

And for that, you have to sit and think really deeply.

Ryan Hall (2:32:24.860)

It's like really hard work.

Lex Fridman (2:32:26.300)

Compared to like what most people do,

Ryan Hall (2:32:28.540)

like even what I, I mean, what I do,

Lex Fridman (2:32:31.260)

like programming is way easier than rigorous math proofs.

Ryan Hall (2:32:34.580)

Cause you have to basically have this machine

Lex Fridman (2:32:37.820)

and you have to, your brain to churn out logic

Ryan Hall (2:32:43.580)

in a focused way while visualizing a bunch of things

Lex Fridman (2:32:46.260)

and holding that in your brain

Lex Fridman (2:32:47.780)

and holding that for 10 minutes, 20 minutes,

Lex Fridman (2:32:50.660)

hopefully several hours.

Lex Fridman (2:32:52.660)

And you're not just like doing homework.

Lex Fridman (2:32:55.180)

You're doing totally novel stuff.

Lex Fridman (2:32:56.860)

So like stuff that nobody's ever done before.

Lex Fridman (2:32:59.020)

So you keep running up against the wall

Ryan Hall (2:33:00.820)

of like, fuck, this is a den.

Lex Fridman (2:33:02.700)

And oh no, wait, is this a dead end?

Lex Fridman (2:33:05.420)

And like that whole frustration, that's serious mental work.

Lex Fridman (2:33:09.340)

That's like incredibly difficult mental work.

Lex Fridman (2:33:11.220)

So he knows what he's talking about.

Lex Fridman (2:33:13.300)

It's amazing.

Lex Fridman (2:33:14.140)

But like you said, he's like, this seems like the standard

Lex Fridman (2:33:16.460)

for the quality of work that he needs is so high

Ryan Hall (2:33:19.500)

that almost anything less than this level

Lex Fridman (2:33:21.340)

of systematization and organization would preclude it.

Lex Fridman (2:33:24.260)

Right?

Lex Fridman (2:33:25.100)

So he can't afford the kind of bullshit

Ryan Hall (2:33:26.340)

that I don't know about you, but that certainly I do,

Lex Fridman (2:33:28.740)

which is like last deadline kind of stuff.

Ryan Hall (2:33:30.780)

Cause you can't do that kind of work last minute

Lex Fridman (2:33:34.420)

on deadline kind of stuff.

Lex Fridman (2:33:35.780)

So my question for him in general is like,

Lex Fridman (2:33:39.060)

and for you and I is like, well,

Ryan Hall (2:33:41.700)

here's these negative patterns that we do

Lex Fridman (2:33:45.380)

of like doing shit last minute and so on.

Lex Fridman (2:33:49.140)

Is this just who we are now?

Lex Fridman (2:33:51.140)

Or are there some?

Ryan Hall (2:33:52.580)

I don't think I'm really big into a free will.

Lex Fridman (2:33:54.980)

You know, I was thinking that it's mostly predestination,

Ryan Hall (2:33:57.940)

at least in this regard.

Lex Fridman (2:33:59.420)

It's the same with like communism.

Ryan Hall (2:34:00.780)

Like, as long as it fits my, whatever is the lazy thing

Lex Fridman (2:34:04.060)

to do, I'll just not believe in free will.

Ryan Hall (2:34:06.380)

I'm not a communism opportunist or that's when that was.

Lex Fridman (2:34:10.620)

I'm an opportunistic communist and capitalist.

Ryan Hall (2:34:15.660)

I just do whatever, whatever is cool at the time.

Lex Fridman (2:34:18.100)

Exactly.

Ryan Hall (2:34:19.420)

Let me ask you to examine some fundamental principles

Lex Fridman (2:34:24.660)

of a particular thing that Joe Rogan brought up to me

Ryan Hall (2:34:27.220)

several times online and offline.

Lex Fridman (2:34:29.020)

Okay.

Ryan Hall (2:34:29.860)

Which is that he thinks that the tie that I wear

Lex Fridman (2:34:35.780)

is something that makes me vulnerable to attack

Ryan Hall (2:34:40.500)

that you should be, the reason he doesn't wear a tie

Lex Fridman (2:34:44.060)

is because he can get choked very easily with a tie.

Ryan Hall (2:34:47.060)

It's a big concern.

Lex Fridman (2:34:48.620)

Okay, my contention, and by the way,

Ryan Hall (2:34:52.300)

he wore a suit last time too.

Lex Fridman (2:34:54.420)

He didn't wear it on the podcast.

Ryan Hall (2:34:55.620)

He wore it for dinner later.

Lex Fridman (2:34:57.180)

Yeah, I wore a suit the other day

Lex Fridman (2:34:58.300)

and I had no socks on.

Lex Fridman (2:35:00.180)

I didn't realize, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:35:01.580)

You're supposed to wear socks?

Lex Fridman (2:35:02.700)

Yeah, that's my understanding.

Lex Fridman (2:35:03.860)

Why'd you wear a suit?

Lex Fridman (2:35:04.780)

Did you go to court?

Ryan Hall (2:35:05.620)

No, no, not in that, no.

Lex Fridman (2:35:07.660)

Hey, I don't know, I just wanted to play.

Ryan Hall (2:35:11.180)

I wanted to pretend I was an adult for a day.

Lex Fridman (2:35:13.140)

Okay, cool.

Lex Fridman (2:35:14.060)

So my contention is like the jacket,

Lex Fridman (2:35:19.940)

everything is more dangerous than a tie.

Ryan Hall (2:35:22.860)

That's kind of where I was going with that.

Lex Fridman (2:35:24.100)

That's kind of where, yeah, it was my first thought too.

Ryan Hall (2:35:25.780)

Like once the tie becomes an issue, like, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:35:28.660)

I feel like everything else is already an issue.

Ryan Hall (2:35:30.060)

It's already an issue, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:35:31.460)

Because the tie to me, now without like messing with it now,

Ryan Hall (2:35:34.500)

is to me has some of the similar problems

Lex Fridman (2:35:38.900)

that a belt does.

Lex Fridman (2:35:40.620)

So like, for example, I don't know about you,

Lex Fridman (2:35:42.060)

maybe you can correct me,

Lex Fridman (2:35:43.460)

but I'm not sure you can use the belt as tied.

Lex Fridman (2:35:50.340)

I know there's some kind of guards

Ryan Hall (2:35:53.540)

you can probably utilize the belt with,

Lex Fridman (2:35:55.700)

but the belt, sorry, when it's tied around the waist.

Lex Fridman (2:35:58.780)

Are you talking about a belt belt or a gi belt?

Lex Fridman (2:36:00.660)

Sorry, gi belt.

Ryan Hall (2:36:01.500)

Okay. Sorry.

Lex Fridman (2:36:02.340)

Gi belt, importantly, gi belt.

Ryan Hall (2:36:04.420)

It's not that great of a thing to use in most cases,

Lex Fridman (2:36:09.900)

I would say, because it slides.

Ryan Hall (2:36:12.060)

Yep, that's true.

Lex Fridman (2:36:13.140)

It doesn't, you can probably invent a few interesting ways

Ryan Hall (2:36:18.420)

to use it as leverage, as control and so on,

Lex Fridman (2:36:21.300)

but there's just so many more things around the gi belt

Ryan Hall (2:36:24.980)

that are better.

Lex Fridman (2:36:26.340)

And so for me, the tie, what people don't realize.

Ryan Hall (2:36:28.900)

That's better.

Lex Fridman (2:36:29.740)

Are we trying to sell a DVD here

Lex Fridman (2:36:30.780)

and have some widgets and bells and whistles?

Lex Fridman (2:36:32.780)

Because in that case,

Ryan Hall (2:36:33.620)

the belt is really important part of what we do.

Lex Fridman (2:36:35.220)

And I would really encourage you guys to look into it.

Ryan Hall (2:36:37.700)

If we're trying to actually like learn something and say,

Lex Fridman (2:36:40.500)

like you said, we're surrounded by better options.

Ryan Hall (2:36:42.740)

Well, that's the thing.

Lex Fridman (2:36:43.580)

I mean, it's not obvious to me that the belt,

Ryan Hall (2:36:46.420)

maybe there's actually undiscovered things

Lex Fridman (2:36:48.260)

about using the belt.

Ryan Hall (2:36:49.980)

I think people have used like putting a foot

Lex Fridman (2:36:52.340)

inside the belt somehow, inside the gi belt.

Ryan Hall (2:36:55.580)

This is a no punches, gi grappling situation.

Lex Fridman (2:36:57.580)

Yes.

Ryan Hall (2:36:58.420)

I guess so.

Lex Fridman (2:36:59.260)

Sort of fairly contrived, right?

Lex Fridman (2:37:00.100)

But with punches too, like, is there,

Lex Fridman (2:37:01.820)

okay, let's talk about a street fights with a belt

Ryan Hall (2:37:04.100)

that's like a jeans belt, like a belt, clothing belt.

Lex Fridman (2:37:06.700)

Okay, so I get to take it off

Lex Fridman (2:37:07.820)

and whip them in the face with the buckle?

Lex Fridman (2:37:10.380)

How serious is this street fight?

Lex Fridman (2:37:11.540)

Are we talking like that far and open?

Lex Fridman (2:37:12.900)

No, 100% serious.

Ryan Hall (2:37:13.740)

Or are we talking like, oh, okay.

Lex Fridman (2:37:15.140)

No, like death, like one of you has to die.

Ryan Hall (2:37:17.340)

Oh, yikes, whoa.

Lex Fridman (2:37:18.420)

Okay.

Ryan Hall (2:37:19.260)

Oh, you ever, like.

Lex Fridman (2:37:20.820)

I'm in this situation all the time.

Ryan Hall (2:37:22.420)

I understand.

Lex Fridman (2:37:23.260)

And there's a reason I'm still here.

Ryan Hall (2:37:26.220)

I had something, I had somebody try to fight me

Lex Fridman (2:37:28.420)

to Starbucks the other day.

Ryan Hall (2:37:29.260)

I fight kids, we're talking about power differential.

Lex Fridman (2:37:30.860)

Yeah, hey.

Ryan Hall (2:37:31.700)

I just beat up kids all the time.

Lex Fridman (2:37:32.540)

Just pick the easy W's, you gotta get the easy W's

Ryan Hall (2:37:34.500)

if you want the hard ones.

Lex Fridman (2:37:35.340)

I'm undefeated.

Ryan Hall (2:37:36.380)

Come around the playground, watch what happens.

Lex Fridman (2:37:37.860)

No, like to the death, what is their clothing

Lex Fridman (2:37:41.500)

that's useful, you know?

Lex Fridman (2:37:43.940)

From my perspective.

Lex Fridman (2:37:44.780)

You mean like for your use or their use?

Lex Fridman (2:37:46.780)

Both, my use, their use.

Ryan Hall (2:37:48.860)

No, like I like how you wanted to take the belt off

Lex Fridman (2:37:52.660)

and use the buckle to hit them with.

Lex Fridman (2:37:54.140)

But first of all, how are you gonna take off the belt?

Lex Fridman (2:37:56.740)

Well, there's a lot of effort involved in unclothing.

Ryan Hall (2:38:00.300)

Well, what I was figuring was when they started

Lex Fridman (2:38:02.420)

to see me take my pants off in the fight,

Lex Fridman (2:38:04.060)

they were like, what?

Lex Fridman (2:38:04.980)

They're gonna pause and rethink the situation for a second?

Ryan Hall (2:38:07.820)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (2:38:08.660)

And I'm making dead eye contact, obviously,

Ryan Hall (2:38:09.500)

this is going on.

Lex Fridman (2:38:10.500)

Yeah, exactly, nodding.

Lex Fridman (2:38:12.020)

And then, you know, by the time they realized

Lex Fridman (2:38:13.460)

you took a belt off until you could whip them with it,

Ryan Hall (2:38:15.820)

you actually, you're already one, possibly two steps ahead.

Lex Fridman (2:38:18.780)

Okay, so fine, let's not talk about your own clothing,

Ryan Hall (2:38:21.180)

let's talk about their clothing.

Lex Fridman (2:38:22.020)

Okay, I'll take off their belt and hit them with it.

Ryan Hall (2:38:23.580)

No, but that's much harder to do.

Lex Fridman (2:38:25.380)

No question, but if you can do it.

Ryan Hall (2:38:26.820)

Oh, I'm maintaining, I can, no, I just said.

Lex Fridman (2:38:29.100)

Like, how did it come to this?

Ryan Hall (2:38:31.780)

There's, but the point is there's alternatives

Lex Fridman (2:38:34.780)

that are perhaps more effective.

Ryan Hall (2:38:36.300)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:38:37.140)

In my perspective, this might be clueless,

Ryan Hall (2:38:39.780)

there's almost no clothing that's more effective

Lex Fridman (2:38:43.220)

than almost assuming the situation is no geek grappling.

Ryan Hall (2:38:46.960)

Like, I feel like clothing.

Lex Fridman (2:38:49.700)

Particularly when you start to add hitting,

Ryan Hall (2:38:51.260)

like every single time I start grabbing your clothes,

Lex Fridman (2:38:52.980)

if you start hitting and it's not like nothing could work,

Lex Fridman (2:38:55.160)

but most of the time you're like,

Lex Fridman (2:38:56.440)

why am I not using my arms for something better

Lex Fridman (2:38:58.980)

than what I'm doing them right now?

Lex Fridman (2:39:00.700)

Right, yeah.

Ryan Hall (2:39:01.580)

It's very difficult for me to, I don't know,

Lex Fridman (2:39:04.860)

in terms of just distance,

Ryan Hall (2:39:06.280)

I can't imagine a case of different distances,

Lex Fridman (2:39:08.720)

even like situations where, let's not talk about like,

Ryan Hall (2:39:13.660)

like a situation where you haven't both yet agreed

Lex Fridman (2:39:16.460)

that a fight is happening.

Ryan Hall (2:39:18.780)

Solid clothing is nice if they have it on then.

Lex Fridman (2:39:21.220)

I mean. Solid clothing?

Ryan Hall (2:39:22.140)

Oh yeah, like something like a good jacket

Lex Fridman (2:39:23.660)

because you can snatch somebody on their face.

Ryan Hall (2:39:25.260)

Snatch down.

Lex Fridman (2:39:26.580)

Yeah, you know, it's like, if you, if you took my,

Ryan Hall (2:39:27.980)

like, you know, like you snap down and judo,

Lex Fridman (2:39:29.940)

like how easy it is to snap down a beginner.

Ryan Hall (2:39:32.080)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:39:32.920)

It's like.

Lex Fridman (2:39:33.740)

So I agree with you.

Lex Fridman (2:39:34.580)

Actually a tie in that sense

Ryan Hall (2:39:35.740)

might be a really effective way to snap down.

Lex Fridman (2:39:37.740)

So like the snap down is really powerful

Ryan Hall (2:39:39.340)

to change the like disorient the situation

Lex Fridman (2:39:43.060)

and give you a lot of different opportunities

Ryan Hall (2:39:45.660)

for, you know, taking their back, taking them down.

Lex Fridman (2:39:49.540)

Doing hilarious stuff,

Ryan Hall (2:39:50.540)

like snapping them down with a tie into your knee.

Lex Fridman (2:39:52.780)

And then when they come back up doing this, you're already.

Lex Fridman (2:39:55.400)

So yeah, in that sense, I agree,

Lex Fridman (2:39:57.020)

but not as a choking mechanism

Ryan Hall (2:39:58.460)

because the concern Joe had is choke.

Lex Fridman (2:40:00.500)

I think you would probably choke me with your tie

Ryan Hall (2:40:02.100)

more easily than I could choke you with your tie.

Lex Fridman (2:40:03.480)

Probably.

Ryan Hall (2:40:04.320)

I'm serious.

Lex Fridman (2:40:05.140)

Cause like, if you get, you can get,

Ryan Hall (2:40:05.980)

like you get my back

Lex Fridman (2:40:06.820)

and you can put it around somebody's neck, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:40:08.620)

like, like, like, you ever see a diehard?

Lex Fridman (2:40:11.520)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (2:40:12.360)

Yeah, you remember when the super Swedish looking blonde dude

Lex Fridman (2:40:15.220)

or whatever was,

Ryan Hall (2:40:16.060)

it was trying to choke Bruce Willis with the,

Lex Fridman (2:40:18.180)

with the chain and then he ended up getting choked himself

Ryan Hall (2:40:20.580)

with the chain if I recall this properly.

Lex Fridman (2:40:22.100)

But anyway, yeah, like, like that.

Lex Fridman (2:40:23.660)

But I don't, I don't feel like,

Lex Fridman (2:40:25.340)

I feel like if I start grabbing your tie,

Ryan Hall (2:40:27.200)

you have too many other great options.

Lex Fridman (2:40:29.940)

I mean, I do like the snap down

Ryan Hall (2:40:31.260)

that you actually made me realize.

Lex Fridman (2:40:32.420)

No, I think you have a good there.

Lex Fridman (2:40:34.060)

What's that?

Lex Fridman (2:40:34.900)

I think you're on the right path with it.

Lex Fridman (2:40:35.900)

With a snap down?

Lex Fridman (2:40:36.740)

Yeah, particularly if you start with like one of these,

Ryan Hall (2:40:38.220)

like, you know, like, like you,

Lex Fridman (2:40:39.500)

like you poke your finger in my chest

Lex Fridman (2:40:40.660)

and then snap down real quick.

Lex Fridman (2:40:42.440)

Oh yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:40:43.280)

And also, socially speaking,

Lex Fridman (2:40:45.380)

it's not a threatening thing to, you know,

Ryan Hall (2:40:48.020)

to reach for the tie.

Lex Fridman (2:40:49.460)

It's not particularly like a business setting.

Lex Fridman (2:40:51.020)

You know what I mean?

Lex Fridman (2:40:51.860)

They'll never see it coming.

Ryan Hall (2:40:52.880)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:40:53.720)

Cause I was thinking choke,

Lex Fridman (2:40:54.820)

but it's not, it's a really good leverage point

Lex Fridman (2:40:56.900)

cause like grabbing a jacket,

Ryan Hall (2:40:58.540)

the jacket will slide if you try to snap down.

Lex Fridman (2:41:00.620)

You really have to get a hole,

Ryan Hall (2:41:02.100)

like a really good hold.

Lex Fridman (2:41:03.380)

That's a good point.

Ryan Hall (2:41:04.220)

Cause it's around the back of the neck.

Lex Fridman (2:41:05.040)

But what if it's a clip on?

Lex Fridman (2:41:05.880)

How much of a jackass would you look like?

Lex Fridman (2:41:07.060)

You feel like,

Lex Fridman (2:41:08.660)

and then they just stick you on.

Lex Fridman (2:41:10.100)

But you ever see the Japanese politician

Ryan Hall (2:41:11.940)

or I think it was Japan.

Lex Fridman (2:41:13.020)

The judo throw?

Ryan Hall (2:41:13.860)

Yeah, it was, that guy is so,

Lex Fridman (2:41:15.020)

he was so calm and cool.

Ryan Hall (2:41:16.700)

Had like, it was every,

Lex Fridman (2:41:18.580)

it was beautiful technique.

Ryan Hall (2:41:20.540)

The level of, actually the throw was even gentle.

Lex Fridman (2:41:23.820)

But yeah, it was perfect.

Ryan Hall (2:41:24.780)

It was amazing.

Lex Fridman (2:41:25.620)

Well executed.

Ryan Hall (2:41:26.440)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:41:27.280)

More of our politicians just toss the shit out of each other.

Ryan Hall (2:41:29.380)

Yeah, we need more Teddy Roosevelts.

Lex Fridman (2:41:31.300)

Exactly.

Ryan Hall (2:41:32.120)

I like our politicians like talking about fighting

Lex Fridman (2:41:33.640)

when it's clear that none of them even,

Ryan Hall (2:41:35.100)

it would ever have been in a fight ever.

Lex Fridman (2:41:37.220)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (2:41:38.060)

Somebody was saying Teddy Roosevelt was interesting.

Lex Fridman (2:41:39.460)

I didn't realize this.

Ryan Hall (2:41:40.960)

Is he's one of the greatest presidents this country's had.

Lex Fridman (2:41:44.140)

And he was one of the greatest presidents,

Ryan Hall (2:41:46.540)

even though he faced no crisis whatsoever.

Lex Fridman (2:41:49.140)

He literally willed himself.

Ryan Hall (2:41:51.020)

Like nothing happened during his presidency.

Lex Fridman (2:41:53.020)

He's just a bad motherfucker who made really great speeches.

Ryan Hall (2:41:56.820)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:41:57.660)

So he like, this made me realize,

Ryan Hall (2:42:00.660)

I was just talking to a historian that like,

Lex Fridman (2:42:03.060)

most of the people who we think are great

Ryan Hall (2:42:05.220)

need also a good crisis that they've,

Lex Fridman (2:42:07.460)

that reveal their greatness.

Lex Fridman (2:42:09.220)

But Muhammad Ali, right?

Lex Fridman (2:42:10.380)

And there's Muhammad Ali, I mean, in sports.

Lex Fridman (2:42:12.860)

But you know what I mean?

Lex Fridman (2:42:13.780)

Like the circumstances, what is greatness?

Lex Fridman (2:42:15.380)

You know what I mean?

Lex Fridman (2:42:16.220)

It's like, you have to, it's not just your capacity.

Lex Fridman (2:42:18.140)

It's what you face, right?

Lex Fridman (2:42:19.840)

It's the quality of opposition, circumstance,

Lex Fridman (2:42:21.800)

what you overcome.

Lex Fridman (2:42:22.920)

So I guess what you're saying is Joe Rogan is wrong

Ryan Hall (2:42:25.320)

about the tie thing.

Lex Fridman (2:42:26.980)

You know, I don't want to go so far as saying he's wrong.

Ryan Hall (2:42:28.820)

I, you know, the man's not here to defend himself.

Lex Fridman (2:42:30.580)

Maybe he has some things that I'm not understanding.

Ryan Hall (2:42:32.460)

I'm willing to.

Lex Fridman (2:42:33.300)

No, he has not deeply thought this.

Ryan Hall (2:42:34.340)

This is my main criticism of Joe.

Lex Fridman (2:42:35.820)

He's not deeply thought to this.

Lex Fridman (2:42:37.300)

And the MMA journalists will be like,

Lex Fridman (2:42:39.300)

Ryan Hall says Joe Rogan is wrong.

Lex Fridman (2:42:41.820)

And hates ties.

Lex Fridman (2:42:42.800)

And hates ties.

Ryan Hall (2:42:44.880)

They'll integrate, hit their back in there somehow.

Lex Fridman (2:42:47.640)

Nice, nice.

Ryan Hall (2:42:48.480)

What's, you're talking about greatness

Lex Fridman (2:42:52.040)

and greatness requiring a difficult moment in time.

Lex Fridman (2:42:56.620)

Can you like reflect back and think

Lex Fridman (2:42:58.780)

what are some of the hardest, if not the hardest thing

Lex Fridman (2:43:01.880)

you've ever had to do in your life?

Lex Fridman (2:43:04.380)

Well, you know, I think I've had a bunch of things.

Ryan Hall (2:43:06.940)

You know, I've had a lot of things not go my way.

Lex Fridman (2:43:09.420)

You know, I've been incredibly fortunate.

Ryan Hall (2:43:10.820)

I've had a lot of things go my way also.

Lex Fridman (2:43:13.800)

But leaving, leaving Team Lord Urban in 2008,

Ryan Hall (2:43:17.500)

which I firmly believe was the right thing to do,

Lex Fridman (2:43:21.220)

is one of the, that was very difficult at the time.

Ryan Hall (2:43:25.440)

Not like, not a difficult choice,

Lex Fridman (2:43:27.080)

but it was because of why I was leaving.

Ryan Hall (2:43:29.620)

But.

Lex Fridman (2:43:30.620)

Just psychologically.

Ryan Hall (2:43:31.640)

First of all, loss in general.

Lex Fridman (2:43:33.020)

Leaving.

Ryan Hall (2:43:33.860)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:43:34.700)

Team, family, all kinds.

Ryan Hall (2:43:35.700)

Doesn't matter what the circumstances.

Lex Fridman (2:43:37.340)

I didn't lose any friends,

Lex Fridman (2:43:38.340)

but I lost a lot of people I thought were my friends.

Lex Fridman (2:43:40.240)

And I, I lost training.

Ryan Hall (2:43:42.460)

I lost, I'd also had like a really serious,

Lex Fridman (2:43:44.860)

my wrist only does that.

Lex Fridman (2:43:46.700)

So like, I had a really serious wrist surgery,

Lex Fridman (2:43:50.740)

like that I didn't know if I was going to be able

Ryan Hall (2:43:52.060)

to compete anymore after that.

Lex Fridman (2:43:53.280)

I just got my brown belt.

Ryan Hall (2:43:54.380)

That was, it was a tough time,

Lex Fridman (2:43:56.520)

like psychologically, physically, everything.

Lex Fridman (2:43:58.940)

But I was very, very motivated to do my best

Lex Fridman (2:44:01.060)

and to push through it and to,

Ryan Hall (2:44:03.180)

it was to carry on in a positive direction,

Lex Fridman (2:44:04.860)

no matter what.

Ryan Hall (2:44:05.680)

A different direction.

Lex Fridman (2:44:06.820)

And.

Lex Fridman (2:44:07.660)

Were you lonely?

Lex Fridman (2:44:08.680)

This is the thing about family,

Ryan Hall (2:44:10.060)

even if it's an abusive family, leaving is tough.

Lex Fridman (2:44:13.500)

People are complicated.

Lex Fridman (2:44:14.860)

And even people that I, that I don't think very well of,

Lex Fridman (2:44:17.740)

that I think on the whole, I don't think very well of,

Ryan Hall (2:44:19.980)

it's, it's unfair to paint them with one brush.

Lex Fridman (2:44:24.260)

You know, obviously there's greater and lesser examples

Ryan Hall (2:44:26.660)

of that, like the person we discussed last time,

Lex Fridman (2:44:28.420)

who's an infinitely, you know, beyond almost anyone

Ryan Hall (2:44:31.340)

that we could ever imagine meeting

Lex Fridman (2:44:32.500)

in our own personal lives.

Ryan Hall (2:44:33.860)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:44:34.700)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (2:44:35.860)

Bloody elbow.

Lex Fridman (2:44:36.700)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (2:44:37.820)

In terms of forgiveness and hate, I mean, do you,

Lex Fridman (2:44:41.020)

do you have hate in your heart for,

Lex Fridman (2:44:43.180)

for people in your past?

Lex Fridman (2:44:44.700)

No.

Lex Fridman (2:44:45.540)

For that process?

Lex Fridman (2:44:46.360)

No.

Ryan Hall (2:44:47.200)

I mean, there were definitely times

Lex Fridman (2:44:48.040)

where I've been negatively motivated

Ryan Hall (2:44:49.500)

to prove people wrong or to accomplish things in spite.

Lex Fridman (2:44:52.820)

And I think that some of that is valuable,

Ryan Hall (2:44:55.480)

if I be lying, if I felt differently.

Lex Fridman (2:44:57.260)

I think particularly, I do really well in conflict.

Ryan Hall (2:45:01.500)

I'm useless for that.

Lex Fridman (2:45:02.340)

This is the usual deadline thing.

Ryan Hall (2:45:03.620)

I'm useless, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:45:04.460)

I'm useless.

Ryan Hall (2:45:05.300)

I like the chaos.

Lex Fridman (2:45:06.120)

I'm useless, yeah, I do.

Ryan Hall (2:45:06.960)

I'm useless without an antagonist.

Lex Fridman (2:45:07.800)

I like fighting.

Ryan Hall (2:45:08.900)

I like competition.

Lex Fridman (2:45:10.460)

I like being pushed.

Ryan Hall (2:45:11.500)

I like feeling like if I don't play well,

Lex Fridman (2:45:13.260)

I'm going to get hurt.

Ryan Hall (2:45:14.860)

I have no choice but to play well

Lex Fridman (2:45:16.780)

or play with everything I got at the very least.

Lex Fridman (2:45:18.580)

And I guess I would say though, is, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:45:21.000)

as I've gotten, you know, more time and, you know,

Ryan Hall (2:45:24.500)

lived a little bit longer, you see, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:45:27.580)

various situations for, you know, you know,

Ryan Hall (2:45:31.340)

with increased color, I guess I would say, increased clarity.

Lex Fridman (2:45:36.100)

And, you know, there are a lot of lessons to be learned,

Ryan Hall (2:45:40.980)

even from times in history or bad experience that we have.

Lex Fridman (2:45:43.920)

And the question is,

Lex Fridman (2:45:44.760)

can we take those lessons and move forward?

Lex Fridman (2:45:46.700)

And that's, again, what I think we're seeing

Ryan Hall (2:45:48.180)

in sometimes socially right now,

Lex Fridman (2:45:50.140)

we're forgetting important lessons of the past.

Lex Fridman (2:45:52.500)

And that's not good.

Lex Fridman (2:45:53.740)

Not saying, hey, I don't get why we could be going

Ryan Hall (2:45:56.580)

in this direction or that, I understand entirely,

Lex Fridman (2:45:58.700)

but hey, let's not forget the lesson

Lex Fridman (2:46:00.980)

so we don't have to learn them again

Lex Fridman (2:46:02.420)

because that doesn't really serve anybody.

Lex Fridman (2:46:05.020)

And anyway, I guess I would say I'm thankful

Lex Fridman (2:46:07.060)

for all of the experiences, difficult and otherwise,

Ryan Hall (2:46:10.300)

mostly difficult, honestly, most of the times I remember,

Lex Fridman (2:46:12.500)

I'm thankful for every loss I've ever had,

Ryan Hall (2:46:14.260)

particularly the tough ones.

Lex Fridman (2:46:15.740)

I'm thankful for, you know, for all the relationships.

Ryan Hall (2:46:18.820)

I've been, many people have taught me many things.

Lex Fridman (2:46:20.260)

They continue to teach me many things,

Ryan Hall (2:46:21.340)

some of whom are still some of my closest friends,

Lex Fridman (2:46:23.180)

some of whom are people I really don't get along with at all.

Lex Fridman (2:46:25.260)

And some of whom are people I think really poorly of.

Lex Fridman (2:46:29.180)

Oh, there's not many of that last group.

Lex Fridman (2:46:30.860)

What I guess I would say is there's been a lot of things

Lex Fridman (2:46:34.780)

and opportunities to learn and, you know, throughout that.

Lex Fridman (2:46:38.180)

And also it's not as if I've never done,

Lex Fridman (2:46:39.660)

made any mistakes myself.

Ryan Hall (2:46:40.820)

Now, again, there are magnitude differences I like to think.

Lex Fridman (2:46:44.260)

And I can definitely say that none of the mistakes

Ryan Hall (2:46:46.140)

that I've ever made have been mistakes of intention.

Lex Fridman (2:46:48.660)

You know, I've screwed up a lot of things in my life,

Lex Fridman (2:46:50.220)

but I can confidently and easily say

Lex Fridman (2:46:52.700)

that I've never had ill intent towards people

Ryan Hall (2:46:55.020)

as I've done it.

Lex Fridman (2:46:55.860)

You sit there and you're like, man,

Ryan Hall (2:46:56.700)

this is the right thing, this is the right thing.

Lex Fridman (2:46:57.540)

And sometimes I've been wrong.

Ryan Hall (2:46:59.060)

But, you know, you never sit out with malicious intent.

Lex Fridman (2:47:02.260)

And I think that when I find

Ryan Hall (2:47:03.900)

that I think people do things differently,

Lex Fridman (2:47:06.060)

when I do think that there is malicious intent,

Ryan Hall (2:47:07.740)

I have a difficult time forgiving that.

Lex Fridman (2:47:09.580)

How does love win over hate, Ryan Hall, in this world?

Ryan Hall (2:47:14.340)

We talk about social media,

Lex Fridman (2:47:16.260)

we talk about forgiveness

Ryan Hall (2:47:19.580)

of some of the more complicated people in your past.

Lex Fridman (2:47:24.420)

If we scale that to the entire world

Ryan Hall (2:47:27.460)

before the AI destroys us,

Lex Fridman (2:47:30.060)

and the human race is lost to history,

Lex Fridman (2:47:34.100)

how do you think love wins over hate?

Lex Fridman (2:47:35.900)

Well, I'd like to preface this by saying

Ryan Hall (2:47:37.820)

I tried to make pancakes the other day.

Lex Fridman (2:47:39.740)

Yes.

Ryan Hall (2:47:41.580)

Didn't work.

Lex Fridman (2:47:43.260)

But I'm happy to comment on this.

Lex Fridman (2:47:44.780)

So basically, I think most of the times

Lex Fridman (2:47:50.580)

that I can think of that I've struggled,

Ryan Hall (2:47:54.540)

you know, and the times that I've read about

Lex Fridman (2:47:57.900)

is being unable to see the humanity in other people.

Lex Fridman (2:48:01.460)

And also, even in sometimes our enemies

Lex Fridman (2:48:03.820)

and the people that have done awful things,

Lex Fridman (2:48:05.460)

and you go, what would allow people to do this,

Lex Fridman (2:48:09.060)

that, or the other?

Lex Fridman (2:48:09.900)

And that doesn't forgive what they've done,

Lex Fridman (2:48:11.860)

depending upon, you know, some things are forgivable,

Ryan Hall (2:48:13.860)

some things are less so.

Lex Fridman (2:48:15.020)

But you wanna understand why.

Ryan Hall (2:48:16.460)

It's like, to our knowledge,

Lex Fridman (2:48:17.540)

demons don't populate our world.

Ryan Hall (2:48:19.460)

Neither do like literal angels walking around

Lex Fridman (2:48:22.620)

being actually perfect.

Ryan Hall (2:48:24.140)

A lot of times, the things that it's,

Lex Fridman (2:48:25.900)

I find it deeply amusing watching, you know,

Ryan Hall (2:48:27.980)

people hoisted by their own batard on Twitter,

Lex Fridman (2:48:29.980)

even though it's gross and it's really unproductive.

Ryan Hall (2:48:32.340)

It's actually like equal parts amusing and like awful,

Lex Fridman (2:48:35.060)

because you're not happy that someone's

Ryan Hall (2:48:37.180)

being raked over the coals, particularly unjustifiably.

Lex Fridman (2:48:40.780)

But it is funny when it's the exact same thing

Ryan Hall (2:48:43.020)

they were raking others over the coals for,

Lex Fridman (2:48:44.540)

not like a week or two prior,

Lex Fridman (2:48:45.940)

and that's happened repeatedly and will continue to happen.

Lex Fridman (2:48:48.380)

And I guess I would say, as you mentioned, you know,

Ryan Hall (2:48:51.180)

a prior, you know, like a recognition

Lex Fridman (2:48:53.300)

of the humanity of others of that all of us make mistakes,

Ryan Hall (2:48:56.740)

that it's difficult to understand intention.

Lex Fridman (2:48:58.860)

I've had arguments with close friends of mine

Ryan Hall (2:49:00.580)

over text message where both of us ended up super pissed

Lex Fridman (2:49:03.940)

because we were completely misreading what the tone,

Ryan Hall (2:49:07.220)

the intention of what the other person was doing.

Lex Fridman (2:49:08.900)

And even if I was reading it correctly, which I wasn't,

Ryan Hall (2:49:11.460)

it's so easy to ascribe the most negative possible,

Lex Fridman (2:49:15.660)

you know, the least charitable assessment

Ryan Hall (2:49:18.300)

of what they're doing.

Lex Fridman (2:49:19.140)

And I think that that's such a dangerous way

Ryan Hall (2:49:21.340)

to live your life and it's also just a fruitless way

Lex Fridman (2:49:23.380)

to live your life.

Lex Fridman (2:49:24.260)

You know, it's one thing to go, hey, why did you do that?

Lex Fridman (2:49:26.540)

I was pissed.

Lex Fridman (2:49:27.460)

Did you, what did you do?

Lex Fridman (2:49:28.380)

You just, you did that to make yourself feel better,

Ryan Hall (2:49:29.980)

like you're damn right I did.

Lex Fridman (2:49:31.300)

And have I done that plenty of times in my life?

Ryan Hall (2:49:34.300)

Yeah, I would lie if I said that I didn't, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:49:36.540)

why did you, why did you punch that guy in the face?

Ryan Hall (2:49:38.100)

He was going crazy at me and hit me and I asked him to stop.

Lex Fridman (2:49:40.980)

And then I gave warning and I put him on his ass.

Ryan Hall (2:49:43.100)

I'm like, no, I'm not sorry.

Lex Fridman (2:49:44.460)

But then looking back now with years to sit on them,

Lex Fridman (2:49:47.700)

like, do I understand why I did what I did?

Lex Fridman (2:49:49.980)

Absolutely.

Lex Fridman (2:49:51.460)

Would I like to respond differently now?

Lex Fridman (2:49:53.220)

Yeah, I would.

Ryan Hall (2:49:54.140)

You know, and it doesn't mean that,

Lex Fridman (2:49:55.980)

I think plenty of things that people do are understandable.

Ryan Hall (2:49:59.340)

Doesn't mean, understandable doesn't mean correct.

Lex Fridman (2:50:01.980)

Understandable doesn't mean that you go,

Ryan Hall (2:50:03.580)

oh yeah, that's great.

Lex Fridman (2:50:04.420)

You go, I could see someone doing such a thing.

Lex Fridman (2:50:07.940)

But I guess just trying to understand

Lex Fridman (2:50:09.740)

and see the humanity in others.

Ryan Hall (2:50:11.300)

Cause if I can't see the humanity in others,

Lex Fridman (2:50:12.900)

how can I see it in myself?

Lex Fridman (2:50:14.540)

And also, you know, how am I meant to interact with everyone?

Lex Fridman (2:50:17.300)

As you said, whether, you know,

Ryan Hall (2:50:18.540)

even if we're a society of individuals

Lex Fridman (2:50:20.620)

for at least for the time being, hopefully,

Ryan Hall (2:50:22.180)

you know, in perpetuity,

Lex Fridman (2:50:23.860)

we still come together as a whole.

Lex Fridman (2:50:26.420)

And watching, it's weird.

Lex Fridman (2:50:28.660)

Like you said, if I only ask why once,

Ryan Hall (2:50:30.660)

I start with, stay out of my way

Lex Fridman (2:50:32.900)

and I'll stay out of yours.

Ryan Hall (2:50:33.740)

Leave me the fuck alone.

Lex Fridman (2:50:34.700)

You're like, okay, that's fine, Ryan.

Lex Fridman (2:50:36.740)

But that's easy for you to say,

Lex Fridman (2:50:37.580)

living in a society that doesn't actually function like that.

Lex Fridman (2:50:40.380)

So it's a little bit cheap.

Lex Fridman (2:50:41.940)

But if I recognize that that's step one is,

Ryan Hall (2:50:43.860)

I don't hurt you and you don't hurt me.

Lex Fridman (2:50:45.340)

But then we go, well, but how can I help you?

Ryan Hall (2:50:48.300)

That's step two.

Lex Fridman (2:50:49.140)

And then it goes way beyond that

Lex Fridman (2:50:50.540)

and a lot further than I've thought about it.

Lex Fridman (2:50:51.740)

But I guess what I would just say is,

Ryan Hall (2:50:52.780)

again, recognition of the humanity in others

Lex Fridman (2:50:55.220)

and that we all have different strengths,

Ryan Hall (2:50:57.020)

we all have different weaknesses.

Lex Fridman (2:50:57.860)

And you can never really be sure

Ryan Hall (2:50:59.260)

where the other person's coming from.

Lex Fridman (2:51:00.260)

But if we approach things charitably,

Ryan Hall (2:51:02.060)

as charitably as we would hope others would approach us,

Lex Fridman (2:51:05.660)

I think we'll do a lot better.

Lex Fridman (2:51:06.740)

And I guess one thing that I read that I liked

Lex Fridman (2:51:08.420)

that I thought was accurate and unfortunately disappointing

Ryan Hall (2:51:10.700)

was everyone is a great, you know, jury,

Lex Fridman (2:51:13.460)

I read there, I'm sorry, a great lawyer for themselves

Lex Fridman (2:51:15.300)

and a judge for others.

Lex Fridman (2:51:16.500)

And I think that's a terrible way to live life,

Ryan Hall (2:51:18.940)

even if it's an understandable one.

Lex Fridman (2:51:20.380)

I don't know, I'm sorry.

Lex Fridman (2:51:21.220)

And then probably flipping that is the right way to live.

Lex Fridman (2:51:24.660)

Being constantly judgmental of yourself

Lex Fridman (2:51:28.580)

and a defender of others.

Lex Fridman (2:51:30.380)

And that results ultimately in an interaction

Ryan Hall (2:51:32.660)

that deescalates versus escalates.

Lex Fridman (2:51:35.380)

Right.

Lex Fridman (2:51:36.380)

And we can all live in a world like that.

Lex Fridman (2:51:38.660)

And sometimes you're like, hey man,

Ryan Hall (2:51:39.780)

people that deserve punishment won't get it.

Lex Fridman (2:51:41.740)

Like, okay, hey, but what do they say?

Ryan Hall (2:51:43.140)

Better to have 10 guilty people go free

Lex Fridman (2:51:45.340)

than wanting this in person, you know, burn.

Lex Fridman (2:51:47.700)

And ultimately that is, I think that is a better world

Lex Fridman (2:51:51.420)

than the other way around.

Lex Fridman (2:51:53.420)

And if all else fails, join the team that builds the AI

Lex Fridman (2:51:58.220)

that kills all humans.

Ryan Hall (2:51:59.540)

Yeah, obviously.

Lex Fridman (2:52:00.380)

I mean, if you have to be on a team,

Ryan Hall (2:52:01.260)

pick the winning team.

Lex Fridman (2:52:02.100)

That's been the...

Ryan Hall (2:52:03.260)

That's my hiring pitch, actually.

Lex Fridman (2:52:04.740)

That's a good hiring pitch.

Lex Fridman (2:52:05.820)

You still taking resumes?

Lex Fridman (2:52:07.140)

You want to be on the team that doesn't die

Ryan Hall (2:52:10.940)

during the great apocalypse.

Lex Fridman (2:52:12.220)

Not immediately.

Ryan Hall (2:52:13.060)

You want to be on the one that's, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:52:14.540)

eventually long suffering and stepped on, right?

Ryan Hall (2:52:17.100)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:52:17.940)

Life is suffering, Ryan Hall.

Ryan Hall (2:52:19.580)

This was an amazing conversation.

Lex Fridman (2:52:21.740)

I really enjoyed talking to you.

Ryan Hall (2:52:22.780)

I could probably talk to you for many more hours.

Lex Fridman (2:52:24.580)

I hope I do as well.

Ryan Hall (2:52:26.580)

Ryan, I love you, buddy.

Lex Fridman (2:52:28.260)

This was a great conversation.

Ryan Hall (2:52:29.340)

Thanks for talking to me.

Lex Fridman (2:52:30.420)

Thank you so much for having me.

Ryan Hall (2:52:31.260)

I really appreciate it.

Lex Fridman (2:52:33.020)

Thanks for listening to this conversation with Ryan Hall

Lex Fridman (2:52:35.460)

and thank you to our sponsors.

Lex Fridman (2:52:37.380)

Indeed hiring website, Audible audio books, ExpressVPN

Lex Fridman (2:52:41.860)

and Element Electrolyte Drink.

Lex Fridman (2:52:44.460)

Click the sponsor links to get a discount

Lex Fridman (2:52:46.540)

and to support this podcast.

Lex Fridman (2:52:48.420)

And now let me leave you with some words

Ryan Hall (2:52:50.620)

from Frank Herbert in Dune.

Lex Fridman (2:52:53.380)

I must not fear.

Ryan Hall (2:52:55.020)

Fear is the mind killer.

Lex Fridman (2:52:57.180)

Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration.

Ryan Hall (2:53:01.100)

I will face my fear.

Lex Fridman (2:53:02.860)

I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

Lex Fridman (2:53:05.820)

And when it has gone past,

Lex Fridman (2:53:07.460)

I will turn the inner eye to see its path.

Ryan Hall (2:53:10.700)

Where the fear has gone, there will be nothing.

Lex Fridman (2:53:14.260)

Only I will remain.

Ryan Hall (2:53:15.660)

Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

Lex Fridman (30:00.240)

that is an attribute that's nice to have if you need it.

Lex Fridman (30:03.120)

But there's plenty of people

Lex Fridman (30:04.080)

that actually have really porous defense

Ryan Hall (30:06.260)

that are just very, very difficult to hurt

Lex Fridman (30:08.880)

for whatever reason.

Ryan Hall (30:10.160)

That's a fascinating fighter's perspective on the thing.

Lex Fridman (30:12.440)

I mean, the story that is inspiring

Lex Fridman (30:18.320)

and I know it goes against the artistry of fighting

Lex Fridman (30:22.360)

is when you have taken the damage to still rise up

Lex Fridman (30:27.240)

and be able to defeat the opponent.

Lex Fridman (30:29.160)

So it's, but that's a flip side of a basically

Lex Fridman (30:35.060)

you failing to defend yourself properly, right?

Lex Fridman (30:38.600)

I agree.

Lex Fridman (30:39.440)

But let's say for, I think it's a triumph,

Lex Fridman (30:40.920)

that's a triumph of humanity.

Ryan Hall (30:42.560)

That's a triumph, that's amazing.

Lex Fridman (30:44.080)

To witness such a thing is unbelievable.

Lex Fridman (30:46.440)

But you still go, this is, there is a cost here.

Lex Fridman (30:50.240)

It's like, I've been fortunate enough

Ryan Hall (30:52.200)

to spend some time working with the military

Lex Fridman (30:54.280)

and I've been like around and read

Ryan Hall (30:56.120)

Medal of Honor citations, they're unbelievable.

Lex Fridman (30:57.920)

Like you read the story and you're like, it'll floor you.

Lex Fridman (31:00.920)

But it's still a cost

Lex Fridman (31:01.840)

and you don't wanna be paying that cost a long time.

Lex Fridman (31:03.800)

And most of the time the cost was everything.

Lex Fridman (31:06.300)

And then sometimes you go, hey, yeah,

Ryan Hall (31:07.880)

the value here, it's worth everything.

Lex Fridman (31:10.320)

It's like, I defend your family,

Ryan Hall (31:12.040)

defend your country under certain circumstances.

Lex Fridman (31:14.160)

And if that point is extension of your family,

Ryan Hall (31:16.080)

you're like, hey, this is worth it.

Lex Fridman (31:17.480)

To casually throw your life away or throw your health away,

Ryan Hall (31:20.160)

it's foolish.

Lex Fridman (31:21.000)

There's nothing great about that.

Lex Fridman (31:22.720)

And like you said, it's still an amazing thing to see, but.

Lex Fridman (31:26.400)

But it's also amazing to see you not take damage

Ryan Hall (31:29.480)

as the Floyd Mayweather,

Lex Fridman (31:30.440)

it's the artistry of like not being hit.

Lex Fridman (31:32.360)

And I wonder if maybe that's why people

Lex Fridman (31:33.600)

don't resonate with Floyd as much,

Ryan Hall (31:35.080)

is obviously Muhammad Ali was such a time and place,

Lex Fridman (31:37.280)

a great man for so many different reasons.

Ryan Hall (31:38.880)

Although it was funny to remember

Lex Fridman (31:40.200)

like there were times when he wasn't very popular.

Ryan Hall (31:42.080)

We love him now because of time of context,

Lex Fridman (31:44.280)

time to move away from some of the nonsense

Ryan Hall (31:46.340)

he had to deal with.

Lex Fridman (31:47.340)

But we got to see him struggle.

Lex Fridman (31:49.980)

And also he had unbelievable sacrifice,

Lex Fridman (31:52.000)

both in and out of the ring,

Ryan Hall (31:54.040)

that we all got to witness.

Lex Fridman (31:55.880)

We've never really seen Floyd struggle like that.

Lex Fridman (31:58.040)

And granted, obviously Floyd isn't like a civil rights

Lex Fridman (32:00.000)

figure like Muhammad Ali was,

Ryan Hall (32:01.660)

it's different time, different place,

Lex Fridman (32:02.820)

and he's a different man.

Lex Fridman (32:03.660)

But basically, I wonder if part of the thing

Lex Fridman (32:06.780)

that made everyone think of Muhammad Ali as the greatest,

Ryan Hall (32:09.720)

in addition to, of course, the unbelievable things

Lex Fridman (32:11.520)

that he did out in the world and the stands that he made,

Ryan Hall (32:15.080)

we saw him struggle in the ring.

Lex Fridman (32:17.240)

It's almost, it's humanizing.

Ryan Hall (32:19.080)

You know, it's weird when people respect Khabib,

Lex Fridman (32:22.600)

but again, we saw GSP lose and GSP came back stronger.

Ryan Hall (32:26.720)

Khabib is amazing.

Lex Fridman (32:28.360)

But I wonder how people feel about him longterm.

Ryan Hall (32:31.080)

Not like they won't think of him as amazing and great.

Lex Fridman (32:33.360)

And he's been a respectable person and champion.

Lex Fridman (32:35.840)

But the time, he hasn't had to fall, if that makes sense.

Lex Fridman (32:41.280)

And also coupled with Ali had a way of being poetic

Ryan Hall (32:47.240)

about sort of the way he was in the ring,

Lex Fridman (32:49.980)

sort of being able to explain the artistry that he,

Ryan Hall (32:52.080)

I mean, there's like joking as being playful,

Lex Fridman (32:54.140)

but really he was able to describe the flow,

Ryan Hall (32:58.400)

like a butterfly sting like a bee.

Lex Fridman (32:59.720)

Like he was able to actually talk about his strategy

Ryan Hall (33:03.120)

without talking, without crossing that line

Lex Fridman (33:06.480)

into the Floyd Mayweather,

Ryan Hall (33:07.560)

when you're just talking about money and just talking shit.

Lex Fridman (33:11.240)

That's true.

Ryan Hall (33:12.080)

Actually Conor McGregor, when he's not talking shit,

Lex Fridman (33:14.680)

it's pretty good at like talking about the art

Ryan Hall (33:16.840)

of the martial, like the first mug guy.

Lex Fridman (33:19.480)

And I wish Khabib did the same.

Ryan Hall (33:22.360)

Actually from like the Setia brothers,

Lex Fridman (33:27.640)

there's a few, there's a culture of like being poetic

Ryan Hall (33:30.180)

about like being scholars and also bards or whatever,

Lex Fridman (33:36.080)

the poets of the game.

Lex Fridman (33:37.840)

And Khabib was more like just simple

Lex Fridman (33:41.480)

and he lets his actions speak, which is great too.

Ryan Hall (33:44.640)

It's a cool thing in its own way.

Lex Fridman (33:45.760)

Yeah, it's great.

Lex Fridman (33:46.640)

But it's nice when you can tell stories

Lex Fridman (33:48.880)

and that's probably why Ali was the great.

Ryan Hall (33:53.280)

Catch me up to, you went to three fights,

Lex Fridman (33:56.840)

I think undefeated, BJ Penn,

Ryan Hall (34:00.640)

we talked about last time you defeated BJ Penn.

Lex Fridman (34:02.640)

That's an incredible accomplishment,

Lex Fridman (34:06.960)

but you fought a lot of really tough guys.

Lex Fridman (34:10.820)

When was your last fight?

Lex Fridman (34:12.280)

And then catch me up with the injuries.

Lex Fridman (34:14.900)

A lot of people kept more and more and more

Ryan Hall (34:17.120)

were unwilling to fight you.

Lex Fridman (34:20.320)

Yeah, that's been, that was why I was out for two years

Ryan Hall (34:22.860)

following the Gray Maynard fight between the fighting Gray

Lex Fridman (34:26.920)

and BJ and the Gray Maynard fight

Ryan Hall (34:28.400)

was actually one I'm really proud of

Lex Fridman (34:29.400)

because Gray was very tough.

Ryan Hall (34:31.400)

He's very big, very strong, very experienced.

Lex Fridman (34:33.720)

I had only five fights at the time

Lex Fridman (34:36.920)

and I didn't have a lot of skills.

Lex Fridman (34:38.060)

I don't get to fight Gray with what I have today.

Ryan Hall (34:40.560)

I had to fight Gray with what I had in December, 2016.

Lex Fridman (34:43.720)

And that, it really took a lot of discipline,

Ryan Hall (34:46.080)

a lot of focus, a lot of challenge,

Lex Fridman (34:48.320)

to stay the course, to do what I needed to do in that fight

Lex Fridman (34:50.400)

and to win in ultimately dominating fashion,

Lex Fridman (34:52.760)

just not in the dominating, obvious sense

Ryan Hall (34:54.960)

that you see when someone runs across

Lex Fridman (34:56.600)

and just does that to somebody,

Lex Fridman (34:58.560)

but that wasn't on the list for me at that time.

Lex Fridman (35:01.040)

So that was an interesting one,

Lex Fridman (35:03.640)

but the time away again was very frustrating.

Lex Fridman (35:05.680)

That was incredibly difficult.

Lex Fridman (35:07.280)

Before that fight?

Lex Fridman (35:08.220)

After that fight, well,

Ryan Hall (35:09.360)

because I beat Artem Lobov

Lex Fridman (35:12.040)

in the final of the Ultimate Fighter

Lex Fridman (35:13.400)

and Artem is another guy that's tough,

Lex Fridman (35:15.320)

a lot of experience and he's a funny guy

Lex Fridman (35:19.760)

and he said some things on the internet,

Lex Fridman (35:20.940)

so he gets a lot of heat for that.

Lex Fridman (35:22.680)

But he just knocked out three of my teammates.

Lex Fridman (35:24.860)

I'm like, he put a couple of people

Ryan Hall (35:27.020)

in a pretty rough shape at the end of that.

Lex Fridman (35:28.460)

So he was doing well and that was a tough fight.

Ryan Hall (35:29.960)

Again, if I got to go back and fight that fight now,

Lex Fridman (35:32.560)

it would be not competitive at all.

Ryan Hall (35:34.280)

I mean, it wasn't competitive at that time,

Lex Fridman (35:35.680)

but it was a compelling phase.

Ryan Hall (35:36.920)

It wasn't close, but it was competitive.

Lex Fridman (35:38.880)

So you were improving and growing fast.

Ryan Hall (35:40.520)

Yeah, and it was nice to have time away.

Lex Fridman (35:42.360)

I wish I'd had more time in the ring,

Lex Fridman (35:43.800)

but again, I'd only been doing MMA

Lex Fridman (35:45.600)

for three years at that time.

Lex Fridman (35:46.840)

So the improvement from doing what,

Lex Fridman (35:49.400)

the Bitcoin mining was overriding the ring rust.

Ryan Hall (35:55.120)

I think so.

Lex Fridman (35:55.960)

I don't really believe in ring rust, if I'm honest.

Ryan Hall (35:57.720)

I can understand why people could feel a certain way,

Lex Fridman (36:01.240)

but if anything, it's almost like

Ryan Hall (36:02.360)

you just kind of forget what competition's like

Lex Fridman (36:04.520)

and you realize like, oh, you feel butterflies

Ryan Hall (36:07.120)

or something like that and you go,

Lex Fridman (36:07.940)

oh my God, this is different versus no,

Ryan Hall (36:08.920)

that's just your body getting ready to perform.

Lex Fridman (36:10.280)

It's okay, it's normal.

Lex Fridman (36:11.600)

How do you not have ring rust?

Lex Fridman (36:13.400)

I think I try to practice performing no matter what,

Ryan Hall (36:17.360)

whether it's singing karaoke and I'm very good,

Lex Fridman (36:19.020)

but like anything, you name it, talking in front of people.

Ryan Hall (36:21.800)

You embrace the butterflies.

Lex Fridman (36:23.840)

Yeah, it's almost like, I remember my last fight,

Ryan Hall (36:26.400)

I'm just staring at the wall and I'm like, huh,

Lex Fridman (36:29.240)

I guess I'm gonna fight in a couple of minutes.

Ryan Hall (36:33.520)

I mean, of course we all heard the phrase,

Lex Fridman (36:34.640)

like you can never walk in the same river twice

Ryan Hall (36:36.440)

because even if the river's the same,

Lex Fridman (36:38.900)

you're a different man.

Ryan Hall (36:39.940)

That's, I think it's a really important thing to understand

Lex Fridman (36:42.120)

because at various points in my martial arts career,

Lex Fridman (36:44.360)

I've thought, oh man, how should I feel?

Lex Fridman (36:47.080)

I remember when I used to do well in competition,

Ryan Hall (36:49.160)

I would feel, I would think these thoughts,

Lex Fridman (36:50.920)

listen to this song, think about this.

Ryan Hall (36:53.200)

I would feel a certain way.

Lex Fridman (36:54.120)

And then if you don't feel that way,

Ryan Hall (36:55.560)

I would start to become stressed

Lex Fridman (36:57.640)

because I was self inflicted versus going,

Ryan Hall (37:00.480)

you'll feel how you feel.

Lex Fridman (37:01.640)

Your job is to show up with what you have on the day,

Lex Fridman (37:04.520)

do your absolute best.

Lex Fridman (37:05.520)

It's like, I will never quit.

Ryan Hall (37:06.480)

I can be sure of that.

Lex Fridman (37:07.320)

I didn't say I can't be beat.

Ryan Hall (37:08.320)

I can definitely be beat.

Lex Fridman (37:09.680)

I could have lost every single fight that I've ever had,

Lex Fridman (37:11.640)

but I control my effort and I control my attitude.

Lex Fridman (37:14.640)

And that's, I will do my very best,

Ryan Hall (37:17.240)

execute my game plan and the event's not working.

Lex Fridman (37:19.240)

If I have to, I'll put my hands up and walk dead forward.

Ryan Hall (37:21.320)

If I need to, it's somebody,

Lex Fridman (37:22.880)

we hope that that's not where it goes,

Lex Fridman (37:24.240)

but like again, that humanizing moment

Lex Fridman (37:27.120)

where you're shooting for like just the inner,

Ryan Hall (37:28.880)

like the inner, you sacrifice the outer

Lex Fridman (37:31.280)

and all you have left is will,

Lex Fridman (37:33.000)

and you hope it doesn't happen.

Lex Fridman (37:34.800)

But if it does, you'll be there.

Lex Fridman (37:36.080)

But I guess to come back,

Lex Fridman (37:37.000)

like the extra periods of time in between fights,

Ryan Hall (37:40.280)

I think was valuable because it was deeply challenging.

Lex Fridman (37:43.840)

It was incredibly, it was heartbreaking sometimes

Ryan Hall (37:46.640)

if I'm honest, man.

Lex Fridman (37:47.480)

It's like, I didn't want to.

Ryan Hall (37:48.480)

It's just waiting.

Lex Fridman (37:49.400)

Oh my God, dude.

Lex Fridman (37:50.960)

Is there politics involved?

Lex Fridman (37:52.080)

There's a.

Ryan Hall (37:52.920)

Sometimes, you know, like I,

Lex Fridman (37:56.520)

you know, it's every single time you step into the ring,

Ryan Hall (37:59.040)

nothing's guaranteed.

Lex Fridman (38:01.320)

It's, you could be hurt.

Ryan Hall (38:03.080)

You could hurt somebody.

Lex Fridman (38:04.000)

You could win.

Ryan Hall (38:04.960)

You could lose, you know, throwing away,

Lex Fridman (38:07.600)

just like I said, throwing away your healthier life cheaply

Ryan Hall (38:10.040)

makes no sense for anyone.

Lex Fridman (38:12.240)

And, you know, having demonstrating some degree of temperance

Ryan Hall (38:16.280)

is not cowardly either.

Lex Fridman (38:17.720)

I mean, but again, if you wait too long, you have nothing.

Lex Fridman (38:20.760)

So I guess like I was trying and always being,

Lex Fridman (38:25.160)

I'm always open to fighting the absolute best people possible.

Ryan Hall (38:27.800)

I'm never turning down fights ever.

Lex Fridman (38:30.400)

You know, if some random jabroni decides

Ryan Hall (38:32.200)

that he wants to fight, I'm like, go away.

Lex Fridman (38:33.720)

If I wanted to just fight randoms,

Ryan Hall (38:35.000)

I would just start standing on the table at Denny's

Lex Fridman (38:37.600)

and start yelling.

Lex Fridman (38:38.440)

And I'm sure it would have, you know,

Lex Fridman (38:39.440)

some people would be willing to indulge me.

Ryan Hall (38:41.160)

But, you know, you want to fight, you know,

Lex Fridman (38:44.640)

meaningful opponents, challenging opponents,

Lex Fridman (38:46.440)

and I know who and where they are.

Lex Fridman (38:48.160)

And sometimes they're so well.

Ryan Hall (38:49.000)

You did fight in Atlantic City.

Lex Fridman (38:50.360)

I did.

Lex Fridman (38:51.200)

So the Denny's, but you put the Denny's behind you.

Lex Fridman (38:52.920)

I did.

Ryan Hall (38:53.760)

And, you know, I'll be honest,

Lex Fridman (38:55.160)

if I'd have stood up after that fight,

Ryan Hall (38:56.960)

I don't know if I was in great shape

Lex Fridman (38:58.400)

to expect to win in the other fights that evening,

Lex Fridman (39:00.120)

but I could have tried it.

Lex Fridman (39:01.320)

I'm sure there were some takers in the crowd,

Ryan Hall (39:02.800)

particularly after they watched me fight,

Lex Fridman (39:04.040)

they're like, yeah, I'll fight that guy.

Lex Fridman (39:05.240)

So, okay, so when was the last fight that you had?

Lex Fridman (39:07.560)

That was Darren Elkins.

Ryan Hall (39:08.720)

That was six months or seven months after the BJ fight,

Lex Fridman (39:11.240)

which is great because it's, you know,

Ryan Hall (39:12.240)

I love maybe five really tough, very tough opponent,

Lex Fridman (39:14.760)

very tough guy, super tough dude.

Lex Fridman (39:16.520)

And that was in July, 2019.

Lex Fridman (39:19.480)

And then right when I was about to fight.

Lex Fridman (39:22.360)

So you were ready to fight regularly after that.

Lex Fridman (39:24.440)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (39:25.280)

You were trying to find a fight.

Lex Fridman (39:26.760)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (39:27.600)

And we got Ricardo Llamas, so no one else, none of the,

Lex Fridman (39:29.600)

I was ranked in the top 15 at that point.

Lex Fridman (39:31.600)

And then people didn't want to fight.

Lex Fridman (39:34.240)

We were struggling to find an opponent.

Ryan Hall (39:35.840)

Then Ricardo Llamas, a great, you know,

Lex Fridman (39:37.520)

former title challenger, you know, MMA, you know,

Ryan Hall (39:39.880)

really great history in MMA, recently retired,

Lex Fridman (39:41.880)

but we were supposed to fight in,

Ryan Hall (39:44.240)

I think May, March, March, May of 2020.

Lex Fridman (39:47.680)

And then coronavirus happened.

Lex Fridman (39:49.120)

And so that scrapped the whole show, you know, training.

Lex Fridman (39:52.080)

We were just scrambling to try to keep the gym alive

Lex Fridman (39:55.040)

and take care, you know, I have five or six full, five, six,

Lex Fridman (39:57.760)

I think five full time employees that I, you know,

Ryan Hall (40:00.080)

they're my responsibility.

Lex Fridman (40:01.200)

I have to, their livelihood is in my hands and it's,

Ryan Hall (40:04.480)

they'd be irresponsible of me to not take that seriously.

Lex Fridman (40:07.520)

So anyway, we were able to navigate through that time.

Lex Fridman (40:10.480)

And then we were able to reschedule the Llamas fight.

Lex Fridman (40:13.520)

And that was in August of last year.

Lex Fridman (40:15.800)

And I got a, a medical like flag, like, oh, hey, you like,

Lex Fridman (40:20.000)

you, you, you have like a medical condition that we need

Ryan Hall (40:22.240)

to look into when I got pulled from the fight.

Lex Fridman (40:25.120)

And I immediately was concerned because of course,

Ryan Hall (40:27.480)

any serious medical condition you want to go, oh man,

Lex Fridman (40:30.040)

well, I guess I would like to look at that.

Ryan Hall (40:31.920)

Yeah, it turns out it was a giant false positive.

Lex Fridman (40:34.080)

And, you know, we find that out, you know,

Ryan Hall (40:36.240)

all of five weeks later and you go, you gotta be kidding me.

Lex Fridman (40:39.440)

That's frustrating.

Lex Fridman (40:40.280)

And then we're still waiting for a fight,

Lex Fridman (40:42.080)

waiting for a fight, waiting for a fight,

Ryan Hall (40:43.440)

waiting for a fight.

Lex Fridman (40:44.280)

People won't sign up.

Ryan Hall (40:46.080)

Asked for a number of different opponents, basically said,

Lex Fridman (40:48.480)

Hey, I'm willing to fight anybody that's,

Ryan Hall (40:50.280)

that's tough and moving forward.

Lex Fridman (40:53.200)

Finally got a, you know, a great opponent in Denny Gay

Ryan Hall (40:57.560)

for, I guess it would have been this, this March.

Lex Fridman (41:01.760)

And then I was training in January,

Ryan Hall (41:04.120)

working on working on some stuff.

Lex Fridman (41:05.480)

I was out training with Raymond Daniels in,

Ryan Hall (41:08.280)

in California, Raymond's amazing, unbelievable,

Lex Fridman (41:11.280)

you know, kickboxing, karate style kickboxer,

Ryan Hall (41:13.440)

fantastic martial artist, great teacher,

Lex Fridman (41:15.440)

great training partner and good friend.

Ryan Hall (41:16.800)

And, you know, just really bad luck, you know,

Lex Fridman (41:19.480)

kind of a fall in the middle of, in the middle of training.

Lex Fridman (41:21.800)

And I tore my hip flexor halfway off of my femur.

Lex Fridman (41:25.080)

So that wasn't great.

Lex Fridman (41:27.400)

And you go like, man, right at the time where you're like,

Lex Fridman (41:29.320)

oh man, all right, finally moving forward, you know,

Ryan Hall (41:31.520)

having the opportunity to fight.

Lex Fridman (41:32.680)

Dan's a really tough guy.

Ryan Hall (41:33.920)

You know, you have to fight well

Lex Fridman (41:35.000)

if you want to have a good chance to do well with him.

Ryan Hall (41:36.600)

If you don't fight well, it's going to be a rough night.

Lex Fridman (41:38.240)

And I'm like, that's exactly what I signed up for.

Ryan Hall (41:39.560)

That's what we want with BJ,

Lex Fridman (41:40.400)

that's what we want with Elkins, that was gray.

Lex Fridman (41:43.360)

And then the universe goes, hey man, I hear you,

Lex Fridman (41:45.120)

but there's also this.

Lex Fridman (41:46.240)

So anyway, unfortunately it's healing up

Lex Fridman (41:48.800)

and then hopefully I'm trying to,

Ryan Hall (41:50.440)

looking for May, I think.

Lex Fridman (41:52.760)

May this year?

Ryan Hall (41:54.080)

May of this year.

Lex Fridman (41:55.440)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (41:56.280)

So it's been, it's been,

Lex Fridman (41:57.120)

it's been about five weeks since the injury.

Lex Fridman (41:58.640)

You'll be able to heal up, you think?

Lex Fridman (42:00.120)

Yeah, I think it'll be okay by then.

Ryan Hall (42:01.760)

Like I don't need a big camp at this point.

Lex Fridman (42:03.200)

I've had years of camp.

Ryan Hall (42:06.000)

Not going to curtail my drinking or anything like that.

Lex Fridman (42:08.000)

Obviously, you know, come on, man.

Ryan Hall (42:09.480)

Life is meant to be lived.

Lex Fridman (42:10.480)

And you know, so it's, you know, I'm in good shape.

Ryan Hall (42:14.560)

I always, I'm always training.

Lex Fridman (42:15.720)

I'm trying to do my best to train around the injury

Ryan Hall (42:17.720)

to the extent that I can right now without, you know,

Lex Fridman (42:19.840)

hurting myself longterm.

Lex Fridman (42:21.480)

So is there a particular opponents you're thinking about?

Lex Fridman (42:23.840)

Yeah. Anybody, anybody forward?

Ryan Hall (42:25.280)

You know, I mean, I tried to, I asked,

Lex Fridman (42:27.360)

I asked the second that I got hurt,

Ryan Hall (42:28.640)

I sent a message to Dan and I said, hey man,

Lex Fridman (42:30.280)

like I just want you to be the first person to know.

Ryan Hall (42:34.040)

You know, I just was pretty reasonably injured.

Lex Fridman (42:36.560)

We just got an MRI.

Ryan Hall (42:37.440)

Doctor says like, hey man, you're out

Lex Fridman (42:39.120)

and you need to take like three weeks off, off.

Ryan Hall (42:41.000)

Don't do anything.

Lex Fridman (42:41.840)

Or you're going to immediately,

Ryan Hall (42:42.680)

you're going to tear it the whole way.

Lex Fridman (42:43.640)

And this is going to be surgery.

Lex Fridman (42:45.040)

And then it's going to be an additional,

Lex Fridman (42:46.280)

like eight weeks on top of that

Ryan Hall (42:47.560)

to start to rehab it through PT.

Lex Fridman (42:49.520)

And anyway, you know, so I let him know,

Ryan Hall (42:51.640)

hey, if you can push this thing back,

Lex Fridman (42:53.200)

I would love to keep on the car.

Ryan Hall (42:55.040)

I would love to keep the fight.

Lex Fridman (42:55.920)

You know, it's like, I respect you a lot as an opponent.

Lex Fridman (42:57.720)

And also it's been brutal trying

Lex Fridman (42:59.560)

to get anybody to sign on.

Lex Fridman (43:00.600)

So if you're into it, I'm still there.

Lex Fridman (43:02.440)

Unfortunately, he turned that down.

Ryan Hall (43:03.880)

I understand he had other things going on

Lex Fridman (43:05.480)

and he and his wife were expecting a child coming up.

Lex Fridman (43:07.720)

So he needed to, he needed to fight.

Lex Fridman (43:09.760)

And anyway, you know, I guess we'll see who's coming forward.

Ryan Hall (43:13.720)

Is there somebody like super tough

Lex Fridman (43:15.760)

in the featherweight division that you,

Ryan Hall (43:18.640)

you seem to like enjoy the difficult puzzles.

Lex Fridman (43:21.680)

Is there somebody especially difficult

Lex Fridman (43:23.240)

that you would like to fight?

Lex Fridman (43:25.440)

I would like to fight.

Ryan Hall (43:27.040)

I know that I'll need to win at least one fight before this.

Lex Fridman (43:30.640)

And I look forward to coming back

Lex Fridman (43:32.160)

and giving my best effort to do that.

Lex Fridman (43:34.000)

I want to fight to beat Megumin Sharapov.

Ryan Hall (43:36.600)

I want to fight Yair Rodriguez.

Lex Fridman (43:38.120)

I want to fight Korean Zombie.

Lex Fridman (43:41.480)

And you know, this is complicated, man.

Lex Fridman (43:43.520)

Yeah, that would be fun.

Ryan Hall (43:45.320)

I would love to see that fight.

Lex Fridman (43:46.680)

That's a fascinating fight.

Ryan Hall (43:47.920)

That would be fun.

Lex Fridman (43:49.520)

He would be very challenging.

Ryan Hall (43:50.520)

All those guys are very challenging.

Lex Fridman (43:52.000)

And so I look forward to just staying healthy

Ryan Hall (43:55.000)

to the extent that we can coming back

Lex Fridman (43:56.400)

and I'm going to fight multiple times this year,

Ryan Hall (43:58.080)

hell or high water.

Lex Fridman (44:00.280)

Hell yes.

Ryan Hall (44:01.400)

Hey, by the way, I completely forgot

Lex Fridman (44:04.000)

because you were talking about the systems

Lex Fridman (44:05.440)

and decision trees and the illusion of choice

Lex Fridman (44:08.920)

made me think of Sam Harris and I forgot to mention it.

Lex Fridman (44:12.400)

So he talks about free will quite a bit

Lex Fridman (44:14.560)

and that there's an illusion of free will.

Lex Fridman (44:18.960)

So it's like the.

Lex Fridman (44:19.780)

Bold claim, Cotton.

Ryan Hall (44:20.620)

That the, you know, maybe the universe

Lex Fridman (44:23.600)

constructed that little game where it makes us feel

Ryan Hall (44:27.560)

like we have a bunch of choices, but we really don't.

Lex Fridman (44:30.120)

We're really always ending up with a middle finger.

Ryan Hall (44:32.760)

That would be hilarious.

Lex Fridman (44:33.920)

Yeah, that's it.

Ryan Hall (44:35.120)

That's what you see before you die.

Lex Fridman (44:37.000)

It's just a giant middle finger.

Ryan Hall (44:38.880)

It's like, oh, fuck.

Lex Fridman (44:40.280)

I knew it.

Ryan Hall (44:41.120)

I knew it.

Lex Fridman (44:42.440)

What do you think?

Lex Fridman (44:43.260)

Do you think there's a free will?

Lex Fridman (44:44.100)

Like we feel like we're making choices.

Lex Fridman (44:45.960)

So you're thinking, again, what we're talking about,

Lex Fridman (44:48.640)

okay, here's a system of martial arts

Ryan Hall (44:51.080)

that's Hanzo Gracie, there's different schools

Lex Fridman (44:54.040)

and whatever, and then you're thinking,

Lex Fridman (44:56.400)

okay, how can I think outside these systems?

Lex Fridman (44:58.400)

But then there's also a system that's our human society

Lex Fridman (45:03.920)

and we feel like there's an actual choice

Lex Fridman (45:08.400)

being made by us individuals.

Lex Fridman (45:11.000)

Do you think that choice is real?

Lex Fridman (45:12.640)

Or is it just an illusion?

Ryan Hall (45:13.840)

Well, okay, that's a really good question.

Lex Fridman (45:15.540)

I'm not necessarily equipped to answer this,

Lex Fridman (45:17.380)

but I'll do my best.

Lex Fridman (45:18.800)

Okay, I guess I would say to start with,

Ryan Hall (45:21.020)

sure would be interesting if it wasn't real,

Lex Fridman (45:23.240)

if the choice wasn't real,

Ryan Hall (45:25.160)

would be pretty interesting if it is real.

Lex Fridman (45:27.220)

First off, I would start with facilitative beliefs

Ryan Hall (45:29.540)

versus not facilitative beliefs.

Lex Fridman (45:31.920)

It's almost like, I think the world's out to get me.

Lex Fridman (45:35.540)

True, not true, what next?

Lex Fridman (45:38.440)

Probably not a facilitative belief.

Ryan Hall (45:39.760)

Even if you, imagine you believe there's no free will.

Lex Fridman (45:43.920)

Okay, now what?

Ryan Hall (45:45.480)

Does that justify every single impulse

Lex Fridman (45:48.120)

that you're going to give into?

Ryan Hall (45:50.160)

Or does the belief in free will,

Lex Fridman (45:51.720)

does the belief in my ability to work hard, to focus,

Ryan Hall (45:55.120)

to be disciplined, to improve my position,

Lex Fridman (45:57.240)

improve my situation, whether it's true or not,

Ryan Hall (46:00.000)

although I think that at least many of us would argue

Lex Fridman (46:02.320)

that at least whether there's some sort of internal driver

Ryan Hall (46:05.060)

that allows for that.

Lex Fridman (46:08.040)

We live in a material world.

Ryan Hall (46:09.160)

Your actions do affect the world.

Lex Fridman (46:11.040)

I can choose to pick that water up or not.

Lex Fridman (46:13.600)

And anyway, I would say a belief strongly

Lex Fridman (46:17.080)

in the idea of picking facilitative beliefs,

Lex Fridman (46:21.640)

and going, hey, I will adjust,

Lex Fridman (46:24.120)

whether this belief system is right or wrong

Ryan Hall (46:26.000)

on a cosmic level, I'm nowhere near smart enough

Lex Fridman (46:28.080)

to understand, but I can say me deciding that,

Ryan Hall (46:32.600)

let's say, for instance, I'm gonna walk over

Lex Fridman (46:33.960)

to have a conversation with someone in a hotel lobby,

Lex Fridman (46:36.080)

and I've never met them, and I go over,

Lex Fridman (46:38.480)

and I start with, oh, this is gonna be interesting,

Lex Fridman (46:40.700)

and I just walk over there,

Lex Fridman (46:42.180)

versus in my head, I'm like, what's this asshole want?

Ryan Hall (46:45.560)

We're about to have two very different conversations.

Lex Fridman (46:47.880)

I could be right that this person's not very polite

Ryan Hall (46:50.160)

or thinks negatively of me right from go,

Lex Fridman (46:52.920)

but I think that that's probably not a facilitative belief.

Ryan Hall (46:56.200)

People talk about, how is that gonna help me

Lex Fridman (47:00.000)

navigate the conversation to a positive conclusion?

Lex Fridman (47:02.440)

And I think about that for,

Lex Fridman (47:05.900)

let's say, fighting, it's a good example,

Ryan Hall (47:07.100)

like confidence, plenty of people believe

Lex Fridman (47:08.940)

plenty of things that aren't real,

Ryan Hall (47:10.440)

myself included, I'm sure, all the time.

Lex Fridman (47:12.640)

And anyway, believing that you can do something,

Ryan Hall (47:16.320)

I'm like, hey, I think I can win,

Lex Fridman (47:17.560)

doesn't guarantee you a positive outcome,

Lex Fridman (47:19.120)

but I would say most of us would probably,

Lex Fridman (47:22.160)

most of us would argue that it helps.

Ryan Hall (47:23.960)

Think about depression.

Lex Fridman (47:25.160)

What's depression if not a negative,

Ryan Hall (47:28.040)

unfacilitative belief that is not always,

Lex Fridman (47:31.480)

that oftentimes is not reflected by reality,

Lex Fridman (47:33.760)

but you project it onto reality,

Lex Fridman (47:35.760)

and it's understandable if it makes you feel like,

Ryan Hall (47:37.640)

oh, man, this isn't gonna work out,

Lex Fridman (47:39.000)

I don't think the prospects are going well.

Lex Fridman (47:40.800)

And then if you feel like you can't get out of that loop,

Lex Fridman (47:42.720)

that seems pretty rough.

Lex Fridman (47:44.360)

And I see a lot of things out in society right now

Lex Fridman (47:46.480)

where you go, whether you agree or disagree

Ryan Hall (47:48.480)

with various positions on things, you go,

Lex Fridman (47:50.240)

is that a facilitative belief?

Ryan Hall (47:51.480)

Even if that is true, which is arguable, anything.

Lex Fridman (47:55.480)

So what next, man?

Lex Fridman (47:56.400)

So where does this end?

Lex Fridman (47:57.440)

When is the positive, what's the happy ending here?

Lex Fridman (48:00.340)

And if they go, well, there is no happy ending,

Lex Fridman (48:01.760)

I'm like, okay, so now what?

Lex Fridman (48:04.160)

So what do we do here?

Lex Fridman (48:05.080)

And I guess.

Lex Fridman (48:06.240)

So choose the facilitative belief, and in your intuition,

Lex Fridman (48:10.760)

believing that free will is real

Ryan Hall (48:13.480)

is more productive for a successful life.

Lex Fridman (48:17.440)

Absolutely, because otherwise, how am I not,

Lex Fridman (48:21.520)

first off, how can society function if it's not real?

Lex Fridman (48:24.960)

So how can I blame you or anyone else

Ryan Hall (48:27.840)

or hold anyone responsible for anything

Lex Fridman (48:29.680)

if free will isn't real?

Ryan Hall (48:31.600)

Well, no, that's exactly the point.

Lex Fridman (48:33.360)

But at the surface level, what you're saying is true,

Lex Fridman (48:37.080)

but perhaps if we truly internalize

Lex Fridman (48:40.200)

that free will is an illusion,

Ryan Hall (48:42.280)

we'll start to figure out something

Lex Fridman (48:43.720)

that transforms the way we see society.

Ryan Hall (48:47.640)

For example, we are very individual centric,

Lex Fridman (48:51.080)

so believing that free will is real

Ryan Hall (48:56.080)

puts a lot of responsibility and blame on people

Lex Fridman (48:58.520)

when they do something bad.

Ryan Hall (49:01.240)

Maybe if we truly internalize that free will is an illusion,

Lex Fridman (49:05.720)

we start to think about the system of humans together

Ryan Hall (49:09.480)

as this mechanism for progress,

Lex Fridman (49:14.240)

as opposed to where individual people

Ryan Hall (49:17.080)

are responsible for their actions, good or bad.

Lex Fridman (49:20.280)

So we remove the value, the weight we assign

Ryan Hall (49:24.040)

to the accomplishments or the violence,

Lex Fridman (49:27.800)

the negative stuff done by individuals,

Ryan Hall (49:29.800)

or more look at the progress of society.

Lex Fridman (49:32.160)

I don't know what that looks like,

Lex Fridman (49:33.200)

but it's almost like as opposed to focusing

Lex Fridman (49:35.400)

on the individual ants of an ant colony,

Ryan Hall (49:37.640)

looking at the entirety of the ant colony.

Lex Fridman (49:41.080)

So that, I think it makes perfect sense.

Ryan Hall (49:42.440)

I would just say that that's a reasonable thing to suggest.

Lex Fridman (49:44.720)

It's a seismic shift, right?

Lex Fridman (49:46.360)

And it's hard to say whether that would be better or worse,

Lex Fridman (49:49.200)

but I guess I'll use this as a convenient one for me.

Lex Fridman (49:53.280)

So I remember the last time we spoke,

Lex Fridman (49:54.680)

I brought up one of the most reviled evil characters

Ryan Hall (49:58.160)

in certainly recent history,

Lex Fridman (49:59.280)

probably human history period, Adolf Hitler.

Ryan Hall (50:01.880)

Well, I'm a big fan of making people live in the world

Lex Fridman (50:04.440)

that they wanna believe in.

Ryan Hall (50:06.320)

Well, if free will doesn't exist,

Lex Fridman (50:08.200)

and it's just about how things move forward,

Lex Fridman (50:10.160)

when are we gonna be high fiving this guy or what?

Lex Fridman (50:13.480)

Because I remember what I said,

Lex Fridman (50:14.760)

and that actually brings me to something else we discussed.

Lex Fridman (50:18.520)

Yeah, for people who don't know,

Ryan Hall (50:20.400)

Ryan brought up, or I brought up,

Lex Fridman (50:23.080)

there's literally a giant book about Hitler.

Lex Fridman (50:25.480)

So I've been obsessed with Hitler, World War II,

Lex Fridman (50:27.920)

and Stalin recently.

Ryan Hall (50:29.480)

For recently.

Lex Fridman (50:31.040)

Oh man, this has become like a meme.

Ryan Hall (50:35.080)

Joe Rogan with like DMT and me with Hitler.

Lex Fridman (50:37.720)

Can I pick something more positive?

Ryan Hall (50:40.160)

Like cat in the hat or something, I don't know.

Lex Fridman (50:41.920)

But you brought up Hitler as an example

Ryan Hall (50:44.320)

of something particular,

Lex Fridman (50:46.200)

some philosophical discussions we're having.

Lex Fridman (50:48.600)

And the excellent, eloquent,

Lex Fridman (50:51.960)

and the full of integrity MMA journalist

Ryan Hall (50:56.960)

clipped out something you've said about Hitler

Lex Fridman (51:00.800)

and said that, I forget what the headlines are,

Lex Fridman (51:05.160)

but they were the most ridiculous possible implementation.

Lex Fridman (51:09.520)

Basically, it was intentionally misunderstanding

Lex Fridman (51:13.080)

what I'm saying.

Lex Fridman (51:13.920)

Then it's like, I get that they're stupid,

Lex Fridman (51:15.680)

but I'm stupid too.

Lex Fridman (51:16.600)

So I know what that's like.

Lex Fridman (51:17.560)

So I don't have a lot of sympathy for you.

Lex Fridman (51:19.360)

Yeah, exactly.

Ryan Hall (51:20.200)

Yeah, exactly, I can't give you a pass on that.

Lex Fridman (51:22.920)

But basically, intentionally misunderstanding

Ryan Hall (51:24.840)

what's going on.

Lex Fridman (51:25.800)

But what I find funny is that,

Ryan Hall (51:29.520)

hey, we gotta be careful what we believe.

Lex Fridman (51:32.000)

And again, back to the cancel culture thing

Ryan Hall (51:33.760)

that we discussed last time as well,

Lex Fridman (51:35.440)

where would I like to apologize?

Ryan Hall (51:37.680)

I mean, no, actually something about cancel culture

Lex Fridman (51:39.280)

that we've been seeing things culturally,

Ryan Hall (51:40.640)

I'm like, I will be damned if I apologize for anything

Lex Fridman (51:43.360)

that I don't need to apologize for

Ryan Hall (51:44.640)

because I was intentionally misunderstood in that instance.

Lex Fridman (51:46.960)

Now, you could say that I'm not a historical scholar,

Ryan Hall (51:50.600)

which I would agree immediately.

Lex Fridman (51:51.480)

And also that I oftentimes in eloquently

Ryan Hall (51:54.200)

or inarticulately phrase things, which I'll agree is again.

Lex Fridman (51:57.520)

But ultimately, going, hey, I wanna make you believe,

Ryan Hall (52:01.040)

live in the world that you're suggesting ought to exist.

Lex Fridman (52:05.800)

Okay, so if there's no free will,

Lex Fridman (52:10.400)

how far of a step back are we willing to take cosmically

Lex Fridman (52:13.120)

before we start going, hey, this is good

Ryan Hall (52:15.280)

because we're experiencing a social reckoning

Lex Fridman (52:18.840)

in our country at the moment,

Ryan Hall (52:20.600)

for good and for other probably, I guess.

Lex Fridman (52:23.880)

And basically, but hey, it all worked out, right?

Lex Fridman (52:27.120)

So that's probably not something that would fly.

Lex Fridman (52:30.520)

And I think that's a fair thing.

Ryan Hall (52:32.440)

That's interesting.

Lex Fridman (52:33.720)

It might not fly from the individual perspective,

Lex Fridman (52:35.560)

but if you zoom out and think,

Lex Fridman (52:38.400)

appreciate society as just like an ant colony

Ryan Hall (52:42.840)

as a beautifully complex system,

Lex Fridman (52:45.040)

like we kinda, from the individual perspective,

Ryan Hall (52:49.200)

we value progress, especially progress of the individual,

Lex Fridman (52:52.640)

but in whole progress of societies.

Lex Fridman (52:54.840)

But if you accept that this is just a complex system

Lex Fridman (52:57.280)

that's not necessarily headed anywhere,

Ryan Hall (52:59.760)

that this is almost like that river is just flowing,

Lex Fridman (53:02.920)

I think that removes the burden of always striving,

Ryan Hall (53:07.440)

of always trying, of always like the struggle and so on.

Lex Fridman (53:10.560)

So it's possible that if we have no control,

Ryan Hall (53:13.960)

you can like arrive at some kind of other zen state.

Lex Fridman (53:17.040)

Does that sound very human though?

Ryan Hall (53:18.640)

That goes against, I think,

Lex Fridman (53:24.440)

our current human condition as we experience it,

Lex Fridman (53:29.560)

but we've communicated that to each other.

Lex Fridman (53:31.280)

Like we've taught, like through these social forces,

Ryan Hall (53:34.440)

taught each other that our lives matter and so on.

Lex Fridman (53:38.120)

Maybe if we convince ourselves

Ryan Hall (53:40.520)

that we're just sort of like little things in a stream

Lex Fridman (53:45.560)

and ultimately none of it matters,

Ryan Hall (53:47.360)

there might be some kind of enjoyment

Lex Fridman (53:48.720)

to be discovered through that process.

Ryan Hall (53:50.120)

I don't, listen, I'm a capitalist, rah, rah, like.

Lex Fridman (53:54.160)

But I guess I think you bring up a really important point.

Ryan Hall (53:56.120)

I guess almost anything like capitalism,

Lex Fridman (53:58.280)

I only get to experience it as I sit here now

Lex Fridman (54:01.720)

and I get to live, I was raised in the United States,

Lex Fridman (54:03.960)

have traveled around the world a little bit,

Ryan Hall (54:05.480)

have had the good fortune of meeting many people

Lex Fridman (54:07.840)

from many different places.

Lex Fridman (54:09.200)

And I'm an end user of capitalism.

Lex Fridman (54:12.840)

I don't really know how it got here,

Ryan Hall (54:14.320)

whether it was, I wasn't there at the start of this idea.

Lex Fridman (54:16.760)

I wasn't there for, hey, how did we come up with this idea?

Lex Fridman (54:19.280)

How did we arrive?

Lex Fridman (54:20.120)

And I'm nowhere near well read enough

Ryan Hall (54:20.960)

to understand any of that really even secondhand.

Lex Fridman (54:24.920)

And I guess recognizing that communism,

Ryan Hall (54:27.360)

Marxism, socialism, anarchism, anything is,

Lex Fridman (54:30.580)

these are all perspectives that all have,

Ryan Hall (54:33.200)

I guess, various strengths and weaknesses.

Lex Fridman (54:35.580)

But I guess one thing I'm always,

Ryan Hall (54:37.760)

I guess I would say the burden,

Lex Fridman (54:39.080)

it seems to me that if you wanna make a change,

Ryan Hall (54:42.280)

the burden of proof is on the person

Lex Fridman (54:45.880)

implying that there needs to be a change.

Lex Fridman (54:47.720)

And it doesn't mean that there's nothing there,

Lex Fridman (54:49.860)

but it's like if you wanna create a small shift,

Ryan Hall (54:51.840)

a ripple, that's fine,

Lex Fridman (54:52.680)

but a seismic ripping shift in how we exist

Ryan Hall (54:55.680)

or how we experience the world as human beings.

Lex Fridman (54:57.360)

And you mentioned fighting,

Lex Fridman (54:58.460)

why watching someone undergo,

Lex Fridman (55:01.120)

take abuse on a level in the ring that's just shocking

Lex Fridman (55:05.120)

and then triumph in spite of it is like,

Lex Fridman (55:07.800)

this is unbelievable.

Ryan Hall (55:09.200)

This is part of the magic of combat sports.

Lex Fridman (55:11.660)

Now, it's part of the magic,

Ryan Hall (55:13.080)

the other side of the magic

Lex Fridman (55:13.920)

that doesn't get talked about sometimes

Ryan Hall (55:15.120)

is that the trajectory of that individual's life later on

Lex Fridman (55:19.000)

is not always great,

Ryan Hall (55:20.600)

or let me rephrase, there's a cost for that.

Lex Fridman (55:22.760)

But if we remember, you mentioned removing the struggle.

Ryan Hall (55:28.160)

I don't personally, the struggle is what makes life life.

Lex Fridman (55:33.040)

And also, I guess, something Faraz has brought up to me

Ryan Hall (55:35.480)

on a number of occasions, and it makes sense to me,

Lex Fridman (55:38.640)

it's basically humans only understand things

Ryan Hall (55:42.480)

through relative comparison.

Lex Fridman (55:43.760)

I only understand heat because I've known cold.

Ryan Hall (55:47.680)

I only understand, it's like talking to someone

Lex Fridman (55:50.180)

that's never experienced any sort of hardship

Lex Fridman (55:52.400)

and then their latte isn't right,

Lex Fridman (55:54.440)

and then they pitch a fit

Ryan Hall (55:56.320)

versus someone that's gone through

Lex Fridman (55:57.720)

a great deal of challenge, struggle in their life.

Ryan Hall (56:00.940)

They tend to have a little bit more of an even perspective.

Lex Fridman (56:03.680)

And anyway, and of course, even as a relative thing

Lex Fridman (56:07.360)

and what I perceive to be even may not be even,

Lex Fridman (56:09.120)

maybe I'm particularly softer

Ryan Hall (56:10.600)

or something in the other direction without realizing,

Lex Fridman (56:12.680)

because I can only understand what I can understand.

Lex Fridman (56:14.640)

But the idea that we wanna fundamentally alter ourselves

Lex Fridman (56:19.400)

as a species and as people

Ryan Hall (56:21.040)

seems like an incredibly, incredibly high bar to prove,

Lex Fridman (56:25.360)

and also like an incredibly dangerous idea,

Ryan Hall (56:27.800)

because it always comes back to,

Lex Fridman (56:29.200)

well, who's gonna be responsible for this?

Lex Fridman (56:31.080)

Who gets to do the choosing?

Lex Fridman (56:32.600)

What's a good idea?

Lex Fridman (56:33.440)

What's not a good idea?

Lex Fridman (56:34.280)

And I guess that actually brings me kind of to a,

Ryan Hall (56:36.440)

something I've been encountering recently

Lex Fridman (56:38.080)

in discussions with friends.

Ryan Hall (56:40.200)

I feel like there's only two types of people

Lex Fridman (56:42.720)

that I encounter at this point.

Ryan Hall (56:46.120)

People with a more or less libertarian tilt

Lex Fridman (56:48.920)

to their thinking and people without it.

Lex Fridman (56:51.200)

And when I say libertarian,

Lex Fridman (56:52.240)

I don't mean that in the political party sense

Ryan Hall (56:54.120)

or even the belief system.

Lex Fridman (56:55.400)

Basically, I'm like, hey, you do you buddy.

Ryan Hall (56:57.880)

It's not my, what you're up to is not my concern

Lex Fridman (57:00.320)

versus what you're up to is my concern.

Lex Fridman (57:01.960)

And I guess I've always watched,

Lex Fridman (57:03.720)

various points in history, people on this side

Ryan Hall (57:05.480)

or people on that side are more or less,

Lex Fridman (57:08.800)

I guess, problematic, I guess you could say.

Lex Fridman (57:10.920)

And I don't mean that in the internet sense,

Lex Fridman (57:13.480)

you know, more of an issue,

Lex Fridman (57:15.160)

but the world is always full of people

Lex Fridman (57:18.520)

that wanna tell you what you need to be doing

Ryan Hall (57:20.920)

as opposed to more or less doing no harm.

Lex Fridman (57:22.760)

And I guess that's one of the ones,

Ryan Hall (57:24.040)

anytime I'm trying to tell other people what to do,

Lex Fridman (57:26.880)

I better hope I'm right.

Lex Fridman (57:28.040)

And it's bizarre to me how many people are so confident

Lex Fridman (57:30.640)

that their side or their position is the one

Ryan Hall (57:33.080)

that's not only right for them,

Lex Fridman (57:34.320)

but right enough that they can enforce it on others.

Lex Fridman (57:36.440)

And that just seems incredibly dangerous to me.

Lex Fridman (57:38.840)

And I guess that comes back to even Sam's point

Ryan Hall (57:41.400)

about, oh, we want to,

Lex Fridman (57:43.600)

trying to spread the idea that free will doesn't exist.

Ryan Hall (57:46.240)

I'm not saying it's damaging, but it very well may be.

Lex Fridman (57:48.440)

And plenty of other things could be as well.

Ryan Hall (57:50.000)

I'm not, you know, it goes way over my head

Lex Fridman (57:52.000)

as to the implications of all of these.

Lex Fridman (57:53.760)

And I guess all of us are in evangelist for something,

Lex Fridman (57:56.320)

but I guess it's weird that we've gotten this far

Ryan Hall (58:00.880)

as a species and now we wanna take like sharp, sharp turns.

Lex Fridman (58:05.280)

Well, we've been taking a bunch of sharp turns

Ryan Hall (58:06.840)

throughout history.

Lex Fridman (58:07.680)

Yeah.

Ryan Hall (58:08.520)

That's what, you know, that's the way,

Lex Fridman (58:11.680)

you know, okay, humans love power.

Lex Fridman (58:13.960)

And one way to attain power is to say,

Lex Fridman (58:16.060)

everything that you guys are doing is wrong

Lex Fridman (58:18.160)

and I have the right thing

Lex Fridman (58:19.320)

and I'm gonna build up a giant cult of people

Lex Fridman (58:21.880)

and I'm gonna overthrow.

Lex Fridman (58:23.520)

And indirectly what that results in me is me gaining power.

Lex Fridman (58:27.240)

And that's how you get all the big revolutions

Lex Fridman (58:30.200)

in human history, saying I'm done with the thing

Ryan Hall (58:32.800)

that the powerful are currently doing.

Lex Fridman (58:35.160)

So I'm gonna overthrow.

Ryan Hall (58:36.240)

That's where probably all the identity politics

Lex Fridman (58:39.800)

that's happening now is people that didn't have power before

Ryan Hall (58:43.180)

are looking to gain power.

Lex Fridman (58:45.040)

And they're also, you know,

Ryan Hall (58:46.580)

that's where Jordan Peterson criticized identity politics

Lex Fridman (58:49.740)

is people with the right, with the good intentions,

Ryan Hall (58:53.920)

I should say, are in seeking power,

Lex Fridman (58:57.960)

allow power to corrupt them as power always does.

Lex Fridman (59:01.840)

And so they lose track of like the devils

Lex Fridman (59:07.280)

that they're fighting by becoming the same kind of devils,

Ryan Hall (59:11.360)

the same kind of evil that they're fighting.

Lex Fridman (59:13.800)

And so that's just the progress of human history.

Lex Fridman (59:15.960)

But hopefully as these power greedy people

Lex Fridman (59:20.400)

keep attaining power with a progressive mindset,

Ryan Hall (59:24.720)

over time things get better and better as they have been.

Lex Fridman (59:27.080)

Like each iteration?

Ryan Hall (59:27.960)

Each iteration.

Lex Fridman (59:29.080)

A lot of unfairness happens.

Ryan Hall (59:31.600)

A lot of hypocrisy happens.

Lex Fridman (59:35.160)

A lot of people are trampled along the way

Ryan Hall (59:38.280)

by those who mean well.

Lex Fridman (59:40.480)

But over time, like lessons are learned

Ryan Hall (59:42.520)

or like human civilization accumulates lessons

Lex Fridman (59:46.360)

and in part learns lessons of history

Lex Fridman (59:49.240)

and it gets better and better over time,

Lex Fridman (59:50.800)

even though in the short term,

Ryan Hall (59:52.840)

there's people acting not their best selves.

Lex Fridman (59:55.380)

And you know, that seems to be the progress

Ryan Hall (59:59.840)

of human history.