Michael Malice: New Year’s Special
音乐与艺术政治与社会心理与人性技术与编程生物与进化
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"So I think beauty, it means hope. I think I hate that cynical idea of like, I get, I appreciate Solzhenitsyn's broader point that a lot of times people, there's something called a deepity, where people throw words together to sound profound. And if you take it apart, like this is just complete gibberish, I don't think this is an example of that."
所以我认为美，就意味着希望。我想我讨厌那种愤世嫉俗的想法，我明白，我欣赏索尔仁尼琴的更广泛的观点，很多时候人们有一种叫做深度的东西，人们把单词放在一起听起来很深刻。如果你把它拆开，就像这完全是胡言乱语，我不认为这是一个例子。
— Michael Malice （02:18.360）
"I think beauty inspires. And more importantly, it proves to you, this is something that can actually happen on this Earth. Plato, right, the Platonic theory of forms, like this world is imperfect, but these perfect forms exist in another dimension. And that's where our concepts come from. He was an early person trying to figure out where our concepts come from, and epistemology, and so on and so forth."
我认为美能激发灵感。更重要的是，它向你证明，这是地球上真正可能发生的事情。柏拉图，对，柏拉图的形式论，就像这个世界是不完美的，但这些完美的形式存在于另一个维度。这就是我们的概念的来源。他是一个早期的人，试图弄清楚我们的概念和认识论等从何而来。
— Michael Malice （02:42.600）
"It was just words thrown out there, because with all the suffering that's in the world, what has beauty actually ever done?"
这只是一些言论，因为世界上有那么多苦难，美到底做了什么？
— Michael Malice （01:00.240）
"But when you look at beauty, it is almost impossible to maintain a sense of cynicism and hopelessness. Because if there's even one moment when some element of perfection has been actualized, if there's one moment where a beauty has been realized and captured, you can't say, well, it's never gonna happen again."
但当你看到美丽的时候，你几乎不可能保持一种愤世嫉俗和绝望的感觉。因为即使有一个时刻，某种完美的元素被实现了，如果有一个时刻，一种美被实现并被捕捉到，你就不能说，嗯，它永远不会再发生了。
— Michael Malice （01:55.280）
"That's funny because there's lots of different schools of thought, like these people versus these people, and maybe vegans versus steakhouse people. I think in terms of the sciences, and I guess you and I would be on opposite sides here, you have the astronomy people versus the zoology people."
这很有趣，因为有很多不同的思想流派，比如这些人与这些人，也许素食主义者与牛排馆的人。我认为就科学而言，我想你和我会站在对立的一边，天文学家与动物学家。
— Michael Malice （04:03.960）
🎙️ 完整对话（2966 条）
Lex Fridman (00:00.000)
Уважаемые дамы и господа! The following is a conversation with Michael Malice, his fifth time on this, the Lex Friedman podcast.
Уважаемые дамы и господа！以下是与 Michael Malice 的对话，这是他第五次参与 Lex Friedman 播客。
Lex Fridman (00:09.680)
To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.
为了支持它，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。
Lex Fridman (00:12.920)
And now, here's my New Year's Eve 2021 conversation with the one and only, Mr. Michael Malice.
现在，这是我在 2021 年除夕夜与唯一的迈克尔·马利斯先生的对话。
Lex Fridman (00:22.920)
Привет, товарищ!
恭喜，恭喜！
Lex Fridman (00:24.080)
С Новым годом!
С Новым годом！
Michael Malice (00:25.080)
С Новым годом!
С Новым годом！
Michael Malice (00:26.760)
Dostoevsky wrote in The Idiot, my favorite of his books, through the main character, Prince Mishkin, that beauty will save the world.
陀思妥耶夫斯基在我最喜欢的书中《白痴》中通过主角米什金王子写道，美将拯救世界。
Michael Malice (00:36.200)
Красота спасет мир. These words, seemingly naive, and ultimately, at least to me, profound. What do they mean to you? Beauty will save the world.
Красота спасет мир。这些话，看似幼稚，最终至少对我来说是深刻的。它们对你意味着什么？美将拯救世界。
Lex Fridman (00:46.640)
Naive? Really? I don't think they seem naive at all.
幼稚的？真的吗？我认为他们一点也不幼稚。
Michael Malice (00:50.280)
Well, Solzhenitsyn actually, for his 1970 Nobel Prize speech, talked about this line a lot, and he thought, for most of his life, that was a silly line.
事实上，索尔仁尼琴在 1970 年诺贝尔奖演讲中多次谈到这句话，他认为，在他一生的大部分时间里，这是一句愚蠢的台词。
Lex Fridman (01:00.240)
It was just words thrown out there, because with all the suffering that's in the world, what has beauty actually ever done?
这只是一些言论，因为世界上有那么多苦难，美到底做了什么？
Michael Malice (01:07.520)
Oh my God, I hate this so much.
天哪，我非常讨厌这个。
Lex Fridman (01:09.240)
Talking trash about Solzhenitsyn.
谈论索尔仁尼琴的垃圾。
Michael Malice (01:11.760)
Yeah, I am.
是的，我是。
Lex Fridman (01:12.440)
Okay.
好的。
Lex Fridman (01:12.960)
And this perfectly sets up this theme, you know, I said, let's do this episode, start the new year on a positive note, give people hope, give people joy.
这完美地设定了这个主题，你知道，我说，让我们做这一集，以积极的方式开始新的一年，给人们希望，给人们欢乐。
Michael Malice (01:21.040)
You and I both have friends who are models, right? And it's a silly profession, to some extent, of course.
你和我都有模特朋友，对吧？当然，从某种程度上来说，这是一个愚蠢的职业。
Michael Malice (01:29.440)
You are actually a model. You are my friend.
你其实是一个模特。你是我的朋友。
Michael Malice (01:33.960)
Yeah, that's right. That's true. I am a model. I was trying to be subtle. But for those people who actually deserve to be models, when you look at someone who is a model, and in some of their photos, and these people look perfect, now in real life, they're not perfect, they have flaws, they'll be the first to admit it, so on and so forth.
是的，没错。这是真的。我是一名模特。我试图表现得很微妙。但对于那些真正值得成为模特的人来说，当你看到一个模特的人，在他们的一些照片中，这些人看起来很完美，但现在在现实生活中，他们并不完美，他们有缺陷，他们会是第一个承认这一点的人，等等。
Lex Fridman (01:55.280)
But when you look at beauty, it is almost impossible to maintain a sense of cynicism and hopelessness. Because if there's even one moment when some element of perfection has been actualized, if there's one moment where a beauty has been realized and captured, you can't say, well, it's never gonna happen again.
但当你看到美丽的时候，你几乎不可能保持一种愤世嫉俗和绝望的感觉。因为即使有一个时刻，某种完美的元素被实现了，如果有一个时刻，一种美被实现并被捕捉到，你就不能说，嗯，它永远不会再发生了。
Lex Fridman (02:18.360)
So I think beauty, it means hope. I think I hate that cynical idea of like, I get, I appreciate Solzhenitsyn's broader point that a lot of times people, there's something called a deepity, where people throw words together to sound profound. And if you take it apart, like this is just complete gibberish, I don't think this is an example of that.
Michael Malice (02:42.600)
I think beauty inspires. And more importantly, it proves to you, this is something that can actually happen on this Earth. Plato, right, the Platonic theory of forms, like this world is imperfect, but these perfect forms exist in another dimension. And that's where our concepts come from. He was an early person trying to figure out where our concepts come from, and epistemology, and so on and so forth.
Lex Fridman (03:07.560)
But that is something that is real in here. So I completely disagree with his analysis of that. And I don't know if it'll save the world, but it's certainly a prerequisite. And what's the point of fighting for your values if you don't want to make the world a more beautiful place?
Michael Malice (03:23.400)
Well, it's also how you define beauty, because beauty could be just aesthetic, beauty could be art. Of course, art could encompass a lot more than just literature and paintings. It can encompass the full life, the full dance of life.
Lex Fridman (03:40.680)
But then beauty could be something just deeper, like whatever that awe you feel when you pause and hear the music, just hear and look up at the stars. For some reason, when I see rockets go up, for me, it's like science. What is that? The awe that we're able to accomplish that as humans.
Michael Malice (04:03.960)
That's funny because there's lots of different schools of thought, like these people versus these people, and maybe vegans versus steakhouse people. I think in terms of the sciences, and I guess you and I would be on opposite sides here, you have the astronomy people versus the zoology people.
Michael Malice (04:23.320)
The big question is, would you rather spend 10 minutes on the moon or would you rather spend 10 minutes in the deep sea? And for me, it's clearly the deep sea. The zoology that's down there, there's something I would encourage people to look up called Deepstaria, which is a jellyfish.
Lex Fridman (04:41.560)
And what's amazing when you watch these deep sea dives on YouTube is that the scientists, they're nature dorks like everybody else. They went into this field, and there's none of this maybe soldier nation style cynicism of when they see an amazing animal in its natural environment exhibiting these crazy behaviors, they lose it.
Michael Malice (05:04.360)
They're on the mics like, oh my god. It's so exciting to watch. I'm not a rocket person, but I'm definitely a zoology person.
Lex Fridman (05:13.160)
So animals and plants and the sea.
Lex Fridman (05:15.160)
And also, it's so mathematical. There's so many forms. There's this plant called Areospermum titanopsoides. I don't know how to pronounce it because they're always in Latin. You never hear them pronounced.
Michael Malice (05:27.800)
You said sperm.
Michael Malice (05:28.600)
Areospermum, yeah, because it's a woolly seed is the genus. The leaf, it just always puts out one leaf, but the leaf is covered in little magnifying lenses to make it maximize the sunlight.
Lex Fridman (05:42.200)
So it looks like this little crystal seashell. It's tiny. It's like two centimeters, but it's just this amazing thing that grows out of the sands in South Africa.
Michael Malice (05:53.000)
Just to defend Solzhenitsyn for a second. So if I may read a couple of his lines from the speech. So he said, one day, that's how he introduces it.
Lex Fridman (06:01.400)
One day, Dostoevsky threw out the enigmatic remark, beauty will save the world. What sort of a statement is that?
Lex Fridman (06:08.360)
For a long time, I considered it mere words. How could that be possible? When in bloodthirsty history did beauty ever save anyone from anything?
Lex Fridman (06:19.080)
And then later, he goes on to argue with himself in the speech as an older, wiser man now.
Lex Fridman (06:25.560)
But perhaps that ancient trinity of truth, goodness and beauty is not simply an empty,
Michael Malice (06:31.240)
faded formula as we thought in the days of our self confident, materialistic youth.
Michael Malice (06:36.760)
If the tops of these three trees converge as the scholars maintained, but the two blatant,
Michael Malice (06:42.920)
two direct stems of truth and goodness are crushed, cut down, not allowed through, then perhaps the
Michael Malice (06:49.240)
fantastic, unpredictable, unexpected stems of beauty will push through and soar to that very same place.
Lex Fridman (06:56.920)
And in so doing, will fulfill the work of all three. In that case, Dostoevsky's remark,
Lex Fridman (07:02.520)
beauty will save the world, was not a careless phrase, but a prophecy.
Lex Fridman (07:08.200)
Which of these three things are your favorites? Truth, goodness or beauty?
Lex Fridman (07:14.520)
What do you call truth and goodness? The blatant, two direct stems of truth and goodness
Michael Malice (07:22.520)
versus the fantastic, unpredictable, unexpected stems of beauty, which is how I see your Twitter account.
Michael Malice (07:29.640)
I don't think that, I think there's a certain dearth of beauty to be had in my Twitter account, that's for sure.
Michael Malice (07:34.040)
It's certainly no goodness. Or truth. Yeah, yeah. It's Twitter, there's no truth to be found.
Michael Malice (07:41.400)
I will answer the question, I will of course point out that having this kind of,
Michael Malice (07:47.960)
you know, distinction between the three things is I think kind of synthetic. I think they very
Michael Malice (07:52.200)
heavily overlap. If not, if I could probably make the argument they're synonymous.
Michael Malice (07:56.280)
In fact, I do believe that they're largely synonymous.
Lex Fridman (08:01.880)
Goodness. That's such an interesting word, goodness. Which of those three is my favorite?
Michael Malice (08:08.440)
I think truth is overrated in the sense that if something is a good story,
Michael Malice (08:18.440)
the story doesn't have to be true or real in order to motivate you and move you.
Michael Malice (08:26.040)
A lot of times, we can delude ourselves about somebody and that might actually serve a purpose
Michael Malice (08:34.600)
to some extent. You know, if you have someone who's maybe a family member and you kind of
Michael Malice (08:39.320)
ignore bad things that they do, there might be a reason for that. Of the three which is
Michael Malice (08:45.480)
most important, I think I would say probably goodness. I would say of the three the most
Michael Malice (08:52.040)
important is goodness because if you don't appreciate goodness, then beauty is just
Michael Malice (08:58.600)
empty. It's just a picture or it's nice. Bad people appreciate beauty. You know,
Michael Malice (09:06.760)
bad people are often, you know, seductive or have a beauty about them.
Lex Fridman (09:10.920)
And in terms of action, I think it takes a lot of skill and work to create beauty or
Michael Malice (09:16.680)
to create truth or to express truth or express beauty. But I think goodness is like the easiest
Lex Fridman (09:25.000)
default state of being, just being good to others.
Michael Malice (09:29.240)
Yeah, like, you know, like there'll be things where these videos where like one dog is drowning
Lex Fridman (09:35.400)
and like another dog jumps in and saves it from the pool. Like that to me is just really amazing
Michael Malice (09:42.360)
stuff and is very moving. So just to me, goodness means integrity and it means kindness.
Lex Fridman (09:53.240)
And yeah, I think of the three, that's the one I pick.
Lex Fridman (09:57.480)
And I think people, sorry to interrupt, I think people also have this idea which is inculcated
Michael Malice (10:01.880)
to them, especially by corporate America, that as you get older, it's okay to do the
Michael Malice (10:07.640)
wrong thing sometimes, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't buy that. And so I think goodness gets
Lex Fridman (10:12.520)
rarer and rarer. And I think people know better and they tell themselves lies.
Michael Malice (10:18.200)
Yeah. But once you get, allow yourself the chance to just be good, I think it makes for a better
Michael Malice (10:26.920)
life. It's like it's not that much work. Like it's not like going to the gym or working out,
Michael Malice (10:31.560)
that's a lot of work and it's great afterwards. But like goodness is easy once you get into the habit
Michael Malice (10:37.400)
of it. I suppose working out is the same way. There's a lot of stuff. If you make it a habit,
Michael Malice (10:43.000)
you're going to get the rewards of it and it's going to be easy.
Michael Malice (10:46.360)
The rewards of goodness I think are more immediate than the rewards of working out.
Michael Malice (10:51.480)
As opposed to the hard drugs.
Lex Fridman (10:53.080)
Yeah.
Michael Malice (10:53.720)
If, you mentioned this quote on one of your live streams, I think,
Lex Fridman (10:57.560)
if you save one life, you save the world.
Michael Malice (10:59.720)
Yeah.
Michael Malice (11:01.480)
That's such a cool line. I think I remember reading about Paul Farmer. I think his name is,
Michael Malice (11:06.360)
he's a doctor that really, I mean, doctors in general, they kind of don't care about
Michael Malice (11:13.560)
like what they're doing as a broad policy across hundreds of thousands of millions of people.
Michael Malice (11:20.040)
They just care about the human in front of them, which is so interesting. They don't care it's
Michael Malice (11:24.040)
going to cost, like in his case to save one child, it will cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Michael Malice (11:30.920)
They don't care about that. They know very well that their actions cannot be scaled,
Lex Fridman (11:38.120)
but they can't help but help the child in front of them. And it's so interesting.
Michael Malice (11:44.440)
That's such an interesting way to live. And that's the way I kind of think when I try to do
Michael Malice (11:49.000)
something positive is, will this help one person? And I just kind of imagine a specific person,
Michael Malice (11:58.440)
depending on the thing that that would help with, like when I'm trying to create something,
Lex Fridman (12:02.600)
whether it's a piece of hardware or a video or anything like that,
Michael Malice (12:06.280)
or educational material, lecture, that kind of stuff.
Lex Fridman (12:10.520)
I don't know. What do you think about this quote? Like what is it profound or just poetic?
Michael Malice (12:15.960)
I think it's more profound than it sounds at first. The example I think of is Michelle
Michael Malice (12:20.040)
Bachmann. She was a former Congresswoman from Minnesota. She clearly had crazy eyes,
Michael Malice (12:24.520)
something was going on with her husband. But she adopted like 20 kids. Terry Shappert is
Michael Malice (12:29.880)
another friend of mine. He's like either Navy SEAL or Marines. Whatever it is, Terry,
Michael Malice (12:34.200)
I apologize. I'm not trying to be funny. And he adopts elder dogs. So going back to Bachmann,
Michael Malice (12:41.480)
it's like, yeah, you can say she's crazy. You can make fun of her politics all you want,
Lex Fridman (12:45.240)
and all that stuff's legitimate. But if you save a kid, give them a home, and you save them from
Michael Malice (12:51.080)
the foster system, and you put a roof over their heads and make them feel loved and appreciated,
Michael Malice (12:55.880)
it's really hard for me to sit here and call you like a totally bad person.
Michael Malice (13:02.200)
I think that kind of thing is... Nick Cersei is another one. He adopted a kid. And I said,
Michael Malice (13:08.920)
I think you're a hero. One of the things that's very hard for me in writing, as you know,
Michael Malice (13:15.480)
I talk about this endlessly in this book, The White Pill, but writing about when people do
Michael Malice (13:20.920)
hurtful things to children, it really is hard to watch. And it's hard to... Because when you're an
Lex Fridman (13:26.440)
author, you have to kind of empathize with the character. Where's this character coming from?
Michael Malice (13:30.280)
Explain their point of view. And that's the one that's the hardest for me to wrap my head around.
Lex Fridman (13:34.760)
Cruelty to children.
Michael Malice (13:35.960)
Yeah. And yeah, sadism to children. It's just like, this is something even animals know not
Michael Malice (13:43.080)
to do. Do you know what I mean? Dogs, when you see them around kids, they're very
Michael Malice (13:47.000)
protective. If the kid pokes their eyes out, the dog doesn't do anything.
Lex Fridman (13:50.760)
So it's like, if you can't even get to that level, what kind of person are you? So I think that quote
Michael Malice (13:59.160)
is a profound one, and it's an important one. It also means we're not all called upon to be
Michael Malice (14:04.840)
Superman. You only have very finite ability to move the needle. But at the same time,
Michael Malice (14:12.440)
if you have actually saved the life, you can go to meet your maker. You did your part. You left
Michael Malice (14:18.440)
the world a little bit better than you found it. And that's all you could ask anybody.
Michael Malice (14:21.880)
Also, I think from a policy perspective, it seems we just do better when we focus on doing a small
Michael Malice (14:28.600)
thing, helping one person. Because it feels like when you start talking about communism and all
Michael Malice (14:34.040)
those kinds of things, when you start to believe you could do good by a lot of people, that's where
Michael Malice (14:38.600)
your mind somehow stops being able to do good by a lot of people. That's when you start to think
Michael Malice (14:44.440)
about utopias and somehow utopias goes to feeds power into the brain to where it deludes you
Michael Malice (14:51.400)
completely. And then you start, it's okay to crack a few eggs to make an omelette kind of reasoning
Lex Fridman (14:56.600)
and you run into trouble. It seems like it's much better even when you have the power and the money
Lex Fridman (15:01.800)
and so on to achieve scale, to focus on one and then... Or locally, yeah. Locally, yeah.
Michael Malice (15:08.840)
Because then also you have the feedback. Right. So if you have some kind of program in Austin or
Michael Malice (15:13.640)
Brooklyn or something like that, and you can watch, oh, this is working, this isn't working,
Michael Malice (15:17.320)
then you could port it out to other places. But top down helping is at the very least,
Michael Malice (15:22.760)
it's going to be inefficient. And also I think it's a lot more useful when you're helping people
Michael Malice (15:27.160)
when it's a one on one relationship because then it's less, I don't know, embarrassing,
Lex Fridman (15:31.960)
but certainly less something to receive help. And you also feel it's one thing if you get a check
Michael Malice (15:36.840)
from the government, food stamps, it's nothing if someone's like, hey, I'm going to buy your
Michael Malice (15:40.760)
groceries until you get back on your feet. You have this kind of motivation, I think for most
Michael Malice (15:44.760)
people to be like, you know what? This person believed in me. I'm going to make it worth their
Michael Malice (15:50.120)
while that they believed in me because I didn't believe in me. When I was giving lectures at MIT,
Michael Malice (15:55.800)
there was one, it was scared shitless. And I mean, everybody, you know how students are and all that
Michael Malice (16:01.320)
kind of stuff. They're kind of bored and they don't understand that you're human too. Yeah.
Michael Malice (16:06.680)
Or this could be just me. They don't understand you're trying to pass as human.
Michael Malice (16:13.640)
Yeah. But there's one gentleman in the audience and he went to all the lectures, all the gentlemen,
Michael Malice (16:20.680)
he was a faculty at MIT. And he just, without very kind of nonchalant, just said, after the lectures,
Michael Malice (16:28.520)
he would kind of nod at me and say, you did great. And before, like one time he said,
Michael Malice (16:35.000)
in a non creepy way, I know this is going to come off as creepy. He said, you look great today.
Michael Malice (16:41.640)
He said that in the way, so he's like 60, 70, whatever. I don't know. It's in a wise sage way,
Michael Malice (16:51.320)
because I was wearing a suit and tie. I look like, when you dress up like a young kid,
Michael Malice (16:55.880)
you dress them up for school. So he was just like, all right, you're all dressed up. You're
Michael Malice (17:02.520)
looking great. You got this. I don't know. That has a lasting impact, that kind of pat on the back.
Lex Fridman (17:08.040)
But I agree with you. Cruelty towards other adults is somehow understandable,
Michael Malice (17:16.120)
because it's a world full of conflict, but cruelty towards children doesn't,
Michael Malice (17:24.360)
it doesn't quite, I can't understand it. I can't understand how you could act in a way that directly
Michael Malice (17:31.960)
causes suffering to a child in front of you. I don't think I've ever talked to you,
Michael Malice (17:39.000)
this might be a good time to ask you about this. What do you make, what lessons do you draw about
Michael Malice (17:44.200)
human civilization from Jeffrey Epstein, from just laying out? Everybody thinks about different
Michael Malice (17:51.720)
things. When you talk to Eric Weinstein, he thinks about intelligence and Jeffrey Epstein
Michael Malice (17:58.520)
is a front for something else. That's what he thinks about. I think about the weakness of grown
Michael Malice (18:06.200)
men in the face of charismatic evil, which is like, for me directly, is MIT. I didn't know.
Michael Malice (18:12.520)
I actually was, I guess I was at MIT when Jeffrey Epstein was just at the very end.
Michael Malice (18:17.480)
He must have been there. I didn't know any of this, but it really bothers me that nobody was able to
Michael Malice (18:25.000)
see through this man because he's obviously, what is also obvious to me is that he was very
Michael Malice (18:30.840)
charismatic. I try to think about human nature from this perspective is directly, like we said,
Michael Malice (18:41.720)
help one life. Would I know a Jeffrey Epstein if he was in my life? Would I know evil when I saw
Lex Fridman (18:50.360)
evil? Even if it's sitting across from you. Exactly. The evil laugh. Thank you.
Michael Malice (19:03.960)
It's a Necronomicon.
Michael Malice (19:07.240)
I'm sure we'll talk about it. Maybe not. It doesn't really matter. We see things, you and I,
Michael Malice (19:12.040)
Michael, very differently about a lot of things politically and so on. The reason I like you a
Michael Malice (19:17.000)
lot, the reason I like the people I do in my life is there's a warmth, there's a kindness,
Michael Malice (19:23.800)
there's a humanity underneath it all. I don't really care what you believe. I don't care what
Michael Malice (19:29.960)
your Twitter says. It's easy to mistake your Twitter to indicate that there's not a deeply
Michael Malice (19:35.080)
human love for humanity in there. And that's why I'm detecting that. I think I would be able to
Michael Malice (19:42.840)
detect that Jeffrey Epstein. If you say detect, I'm just imagining the T1000 sketch. Yeah.
Michael Malice (19:48.280)
Detected. Yes. I imagine, I hope I would be able to not detect that Epstein lacks that completely.
Michael Malice (19:59.560)
Even if he's charismatic in the humor he has, even if he is charismatic in the expression of
Michael Malice (1:00:05.320)
Could get back in the can.
Lex Fridman (1:00:06.840)
That actually stayed in there.
Michael Malice (1:00:08.440)
That's magic.
Lex Fridman (1:00:09.320)
You just gotta cut the string.
Michael Malice (1:00:13.080)
No.
Lex Fridman (1:00:20.280)
You're the most beautiful troll of all.
Michael Malice (1:00:22.360)
I am.
Lex Fridman (1:00:22.680)
I love you so much.
Michael Malice (1:00:30.520)
This is awesome.
Lex Fridman (1:00:31.320)
Did it not work?
Michael Malice (1:00:39.480)
Pick it up.
Lex Fridman (1:00:42.440)
Oh, it didn't work.
Michael Malice (1:00:47.640)
There's a terrifying springy feeling to this thing.
Lex Fridman (1:00:51.800)
I don't want to open this.
Michael Malice (1:00:52.920)
I need to move something aside.
Lex Fridman (1:01:03.640)
I hate you so much.
Lex Fridman (1:01:04.840)
What?
Lex Fridman (1:01:05.560)
What?
Lex Fridman (1:01:08.680)
Oh, is it the other way?
Lex Fridman (1:01:10.040)
No, just pick it up.
Michael Malice (1:01:23.800)
I can't believe I fell for that.
Lex Fridman (1:01:30.520)
I hate you so much.
Michael Malice (1:01:33.480)
Wrenches are my favorite.
Lex Fridman (1:01:35.560)
I can't believe I fell for that.
Michael Malice (1:01:37.560)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:01:38.060)
And there's box number three.
Michael Malice (1:01:40.460)
It's like a matryoshka.
Lex Fridman (1:01:41.900)
I can't believe that worked.
Michael Malice (1:01:43.180)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:01:46.140)
I wanted the box to open all these gears to fall out, but you can't get any.
Michael Malice (1:01:49.180)
You can't get them.
Lex Fridman (1:01:49.980)
Yeah.
Michael Malice (1:01:50.480)
Does that really grind your...
Lex Fridman (1:01:52.300)
You know what grinding is?
Lex Fridman (1:01:57.500)
Why am I scared?
Lex Fridman (1:01:58.460)
Okay, there's another box.
Michael Malice (1:02:13.980)
This leads to my death.
Lex Fridman (1:02:15.420)
No, no, this isn't, this is, there's a story behind it.
Michael Malice (1:02:21.020)
I can't believe that worked.
Lex Fridman (1:02:22.860)
Oh God, that's so good.
Michael Malice (1:02:24.220)
All right.
Lex Fridman (1:02:24.720)
All right, no springs, no weapons.
Michael Malice (1:02:26.560)
No wrenches.
Lex Fridman (1:02:34.880)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:02:35.380)
So let me tell you the story behind that toy.
Lex Fridman (1:02:39.520)
Tonka robots that turn into vehicles.
Lex Fridman (1:02:43.360)
So when you, when I was a kid, you had transformers, but for us poor people, you had go bots.
Lex Fridman (1:02:51.600)
Right? So the go bots, there were four main characters for the good guys.
Michael Malice (1:02:55.520)
It was leader one, small foot turbo and scooter.
Lex Fridman (1:02:59.200)
And what was annoying is when you had the action figures, you couldn't find the ones that were on
Michael Malice (1:03:04.240)
the TV show.
Lex Fridman (1:03:05.920)
And I was a big go bots fan as a kid.
Lex Fridman (1:03:08.400)
And I went once to the Toys R Us in Caesars Bay in Brooklyn with my grandfather.
Michael Malice (1:03:13.200)
My grandfather was always very lucky, like just good things happen to him every so often.
Lex Fridman (1:03:17.520)
And I went there.
Michael Malice (1:03:18.240)
I remember very vividly, they must have just unpacked, just loaded the shelves and how they
Michael Malice (1:03:23.520)
had the shelving, it would be like, like a grid, you know, you'd have like, it was like one, two,
Lex Fridman (1:03:26.720)
three, four, five, five rows and like, uh, five by five.
Lex Fridman (1:03:32.000)
And I remember it was like two up and then you have to do, you have to sit by the side
Lex Fridman (1:03:36.400)
and kind of sort through them.
Lex Fridman (1:03:37.760)
And with the go bots, each package had a picture of the different figures.
Lex Fridman (1:03:40.640)
So the packaging wasn't uniform and they just had scooter there.
Michael Malice (1:03:44.080)
She was just sitting there.
Lex Fridman (1:03:45.120)
And I was like, holy crap, so that feeling when you're a kid and you find that just sitting
Lex Fridman (1:03:52.800)
on the shelf is just, it was such this, is this that scooter?
Lex Fridman (1:03:56.720)
No, I have it though, but that one is for you.
Michael Malice (1:03:59.200)
I thought if you want to put it next to your other robots, open it up, I can open it up.
Lex Fridman (1:04:03.280)
Yeah, that's for you.
Lex Fridman (1:04:04.160)
And that way, uh, it's that symbol of joy when you have, when you're a kid, when you
Michael Malice (1:04:08.720)
find something you really want, I think it just is really, it's a symbol of joy.
Michael Malice (1:04:13.680)
I think it just is really like, so when people look at it, they'll be like, don't be hopeless.
Lex Fridman (1:04:18.800)
I'll open this carefully later.
Michael Malice (1:04:20.320)
No, do it, do it.
Lex Fridman (1:04:21.120)
Should I do it now?
Michael Malice (1:04:22.080)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:04:22.240)
Okay.
Michael Malice (1:04:22.720)
There's no way to open it carefully.
Lex Fridman (1:04:25.040)
Kids don't open stuff carefully.
Michael Malice (1:04:26.240)
You rip that crap open.
Lex Fridman (1:04:27.680)
But then you break it and then you cry.
Michael Malice (1:04:29.680)
That's what happens when you're a kid.
Lex Fridman (1:04:31.200)
I never did that.
Michael Malice (1:04:32.080)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:04:33.840)
Me neither.
Michael Malice (1:04:34.320)
I never cried.
Lex Fridman (1:04:35.200)
I never got presents either.
Michael Malice (1:04:40.000)
That is so cool.
Lex Fridman (1:04:40.880)
All right, Scooter, you symbolize childlike discovery.
Lex Fridman (1:04:47.760)
Right?
Lex Fridman (1:04:53.280)
The poor man's robot.
Michael Malice (1:04:55.360)
The poor man's transformers.
Lex Fridman (1:04:58.800)
I think there's instructions on the back how to transform her.
Lex Fridman (1:05:02.240)
To her?
Lex Fridman (1:05:02.800)
I only found out as an adult that it was supposed to be a girl.
Michael Malice (1:05:05.040)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:05:06.080)
Wow.
Michael Malice (1:05:06.400)
This changes everything.
Lex Fridman (1:05:07.280)
Thank you, Mark.
Michael Malice (1:05:12.400)
No, give me here.
Lex Fridman (1:05:13.040)
Let me show it.
Michael Malice (1:05:13.440)
It looks better when she's transformed.
Lex Fridman (1:05:16.800)
What?
Michael Malice (1:05:17.440)
No, there's levels to that statement.
Lex Fridman (1:05:19.840)
Oh, how does it do like this?
Michael Malice (1:05:21.920)
Let me see if I remember how to do it because I had this as a kid.
Lex Fridman (1:05:26.080)
Arms out.
Michael Malice (1:05:29.760)
The thing is, these are easy to break, I remember.
Lex Fridman (1:05:32.400)
Is it like this?
Michael Malice (1:05:33.200)
No, oh, the front comes out.
Lex Fridman (1:05:35.840)
Oh, let me see this.
Michael Malice (1:05:38.000)
Oh, this comes up.
Lex Fridman (1:05:38.800)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michael Malice (1:05:40.160)
Yep.
Lex Fridman (1:05:40.400)
So that's that.
Michael Malice (1:05:42.320)
The arms go.
Lex Fridman (1:05:43.760)
I'm having visions of like baby Michael.
Michael Malice (1:05:47.760)
I can't do it.
Lex Fridman (1:05:48.800)
Okay, I can't do it.
Michael Malice (1:05:49.920)
I can't figure it out.
Lex Fridman (1:05:50.880)
Wow, you're right.
Michael Malice (1:05:52.080)
She looks so much better transformed.
Lex Fridman (1:05:54.000)
Oh, all right, I'm going to follow the instructions in a bit and I'll leave.
Michael Malice (1:06:00.960)
Yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:06:01.520)
I'll leave this failed project of yours.
Michael Malice (1:06:05.680)
Oh, there's a wheel out.
Lex Fridman (1:06:07.520)
Look, I don't like this in between form.
Michael Malice (1:06:11.680)
Well, this is how it's going to be.
Lex Fridman (1:06:13.680)
Okay.
Michael Malice (1:06:15.280)
Because we're going to be accepting of the transformation that takes time.
Lex Fridman (1:06:19.520)
Okay.
Michael Malice (1:06:21.040)
I got, I saw this.
Lex Fridman (1:06:27.280)
Oh, it's this.
Michael Malice (1:06:28.000)
A little thing when I was walking on Congress and it says resist.
Lex Fridman (1:06:33.360)
It's a bracelet.
Michael Malice (1:06:34.080)
I mean, think of you.
Lex Fridman (1:06:35.200)
The reason I got it is because there's two bracelets.
Lex Fridman (1:06:38.400)
So one said lucky fuck and the other one said resist.
Michael Malice (1:06:43.360)
Now, I first saw resist and I'm like, and then I saw the lucky fuck and I realized I'm
Michael Malice (1:06:47.920)
a lucky fuck to find a relevant.
Lex Fridman (1:06:52.240)
It makes me think of you.
Michael Malice (1:06:53.760)
This is very nice.
Lex Fridman (1:06:54.720)
Resist the powerful.
Michael Malice (1:06:55.760)
Oh, that's true.
Lex Fridman (1:06:59.760)
I saw this somewhere.
Michael Malice (1:07:01.840)
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michael Malice (1:07:04.800)
This has to do with, in terms of resist, you often bring up the book Machiavellians by
Michael Malice (1:07:12.480)
James Burnham.
Lex Fridman (1:07:13.680)
And so I was looking through, I was reading different parts.
Michael Malice (1:07:18.640)
It's a tricky read.
Lex Fridman (1:07:20.240)
It's a little bit.
Lex Fridman (1:07:20.960)
But there is a ebook Kindle version now that I've been working through this.
Lex Fridman (1:07:25.600)
I think there's actually an audio book too, anyway.
Michael Malice (1:07:27.760)
Yeah, I just bought some, the Machiavellians is James Burnham's analysis of four thinkers
Lex Fridman (1:07:34.400)
that he regards as the Machiavellians.
Michael Malice (1:07:36.080)
It was Gaetano Moscow, Vilfredo Pareto, Georges Sorel, and I'm blanking on the Moscow Pareto,
Lex Fridman (1:07:44.720)
Sorel, and Georges Michel.
Lex Fridman (1:07:47.840)
And I just got Pareto's autograph in the mail this week.
Lex Fridman (1:07:54.960)
So he talks about freedom and liberty.
Michael Malice (1:07:58.320)
This interesting line that I'd like to get your opinion on in terms of resist and in
Lex Fridman (1:08:05.200)
terms of liberty.
Michael Malice (1:08:06.320)
There's no one force, he goes, quote, there's no one force, no group, and no class that
Lex Fridman (1:08:11.600)
is the preserver of liberty.
Michael Malice (1:08:13.680)
Liberty is preserved by those who are against the existing chief power.
Michael Malice (1:08:19.680)
Oppositions which do not express genuine social forces are as trivial in relation to entrenched
Michael Malice (1:08:25.680)
power as the old court jesters.
Michael Malice (1:08:28.880)
So, I mean, the question here is, can liberty, are you comfortable with that definition or
Michael Malice (1:08:36.160)
that view of liberty, of freedom, that at its highest ideal is expressed through the
Lex Fridman (1:08:42.800)
resistance to the powerful as opposed to existing in its own?
Michael Malice (1:08:46.240)
I think his point, broadly speaking, which I agree with, is the only thing that can work
Lex Fridman (1:08:53.360)
to mitigate power is other power.
Michael Malice (1:08:56.800)
That talk is cheap and persuasion has very limited efficacy.
Michael Malice (1:09:05.760)
It's like if there's a burglar, right, and one person will give you a speech about property
Michael Malice (1:09:11.280)
rights and you shouldn't be in this person's house and the other person has a gun, it's
Lex Fridman (1:09:16.320)
clear which is going to be more persuasive.
Lex Fridman (1:09:20.080)
Yeah, but can't you just be free without the struggle, without this conflict?
Lex Fridman (1:09:26.480)
What I'm uncomfortable with this view is how closely it links freedom and conflict.
Lex Fridman (1:09:34.960)
Like, why does this world have to have conflict for you to be free?
Lex Fridman (1:09:39.520)
Can't, I mean, it's, and part of it is just emphasis.
Michael Malice (1:09:42.480)
Well, you weren't just saying suffering is what leads to joy.
Lex Fridman (1:09:46.400)
See, and now you're in agreement.
Michael Malice (1:09:47.920)
Thank you.
Lex Fridman (1:09:48.240)
That's, I just did that just so you can come around and agree.
Michael Malice (1:09:51.280)
I win.
Lex Fridman (1:09:52.400)
Next topic.
Michael Malice (1:09:57.120)
Wow, I'm playing 3D chess here.
Lex Fridman (1:10:00.960)
Okay.
Michael Malice (1:10:03.520)
This is New Year's.
Lex Fridman (1:10:05.840)
This is now December 31st.
Michael Malice (1:10:08.000)
I think that's how it works, but in 1973.
Lex Fridman (1:10:10.560)
Okay.
Michael Malice (1:10:11.520)
We recorded this before you were born.
Lex Fridman (1:10:14.480)
Oh no, years after you were born.
Lex Fridman (1:10:16.640)
60, you look great for 60s, early 60s or?
Lex Fridman (1:10:22.000)
Sure.
Michael Malice (1:10:22.560)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:10:24.160)
What five things, let's say, or moments in 2021 are you grateful for?
Michael Malice (1:10:30.240)
Or people, just, I don't know, things, moments, beautiful experiences, profound essences of the
Lex Fridman (1:10:40.880)
year.
Lex Fridman (1:10:41.440)
Like, looking back, what are the cool things that just?
Lex Fridman (1:10:43.680)
Personally or socially?
Lex Fridman (1:10:46.720)
Do you exist, like, in a platonic way socially?
Lex Fridman (1:10:49.440)
I mean, oh, in your personal life?
Michael Malice (1:10:51.760)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:10:52.000)
Anything.
Michael Malice (1:10:52.720)
You're both, you're now Michael Malice.
Michael Malice (1:10:56.560)
You exist as a social entity and a personal human being and all of it, the whole thing.
Lex Fridman (1:11:02.080)
Like, what stands out to you about 2021?
Michael Malice (1:11:05.120)
The fact that for the first time in my life, other than college, I moved to a new city.
Michael Malice (1:11:10.240)
That was a very big one.
Lex Fridman (1:11:12.080)
And there's no part of me that regrets it or misses New York.
Lex Fridman (1:11:15.360)
So that was a very big deal for me.
Lex Fridman (1:11:17.840)
What do you, about this move, about Austin itself, but maybe the move itself, maybe just
Lex Fridman (1:11:26.000)
the act of moving, what's great about it to you?
Michael Malice (1:11:31.200)
The fact that I had forgotten what it's like to have a huge social network, which I had
Michael Malice (1:11:37.520)
in New York before people started falling away and then it really escalated as a result
Lex Fridman (1:11:42.080)
of de Blasio and the COVID restrictions.
Lex Fridman (1:11:44.960)
So to have a big crew here is something that was very validating.
Michael Malice (1:11:50.400)
The thing that's also exciting about Austin is that Austin is not a particularly big town.
Michael Malice (1:11:56.240)
It's not a particularly great town.
Lex Fridman (1:11:57.840)
But everyone here, at least in the circles I travel in, is kind of a refugee from their
Michael Malice (1:12:02.720)
towns.
Lex Fridman (1:12:03.520)
So there is this sense of camaraderie.
Michael Malice (1:12:05.360)
There is the sense of we're building something together.
Lex Fridman (1:12:08.080)
Back in New York, when you meet someone, it would be like, who is this person?
Lex Fridman (1:12:11.760)
Why am I talking to them?
Lex Fridman (1:12:13.200)
Like, are they a normie?
Lex Fridman (1:12:14.240)
Are they going to be weird?
Lex Fridman (1:12:15.680)
And here there's very little of that.
Michael Malice (1:12:17.760)
I think there's much more sense of trust with one another when you meet new people.
Lex Fridman (1:12:21.280)
So that's something that's really exciting about.
Michael Malice (1:12:24.160)
I've been introducing all my friends to each other and everyone's been hitting it off like
Lex Fridman (1:12:27.440)
gangbusters.
Michael Malice (1:12:28.160)
It's really great.
Lex Fridman (1:12:29.200)
So I really enjoy that about Austin.
Michael Malice (1:12:32.160)
I'm enjoying the weather, the space.
Lex Fridman (1:12:35.920)
You read Kerouac and you know his stuff?
Michael Malice (1:12:38.080)
I have.
Lex Fridman (1:12:38.480)
On the Road I read.
Michael Malice (1:12:39.200)
I read a biography of him.
Michael Malice (1:12:41.280)
I don't know if it was on, I think it was On the Road where he talked about that feeling
Michael Malice (1:12:46.720)
when you go into some place, you're leaving a place and you go somewhere else and the
Lex Fridman (1:12:53.200)
place you're leaving disappears behind you.
Michael Malice (1:12:55.600)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:12:56.080)
And all the people and all, like you just think about that life and it's forever gone.
Lex Fridman (1:13:01.200)
And there's some inkling of that where you get to realize your almost mortality because,
Lex Fridman (1:13:09.520)
okay, that's a chapter and there's not many more.
Michael Malice (1:13:12.480)
I know it's a beautiful chapter, but now on to the next chapter.
Lex Fridman (1:13:16.240)
Is there a melancholy feeling there?
Michael Malice (1:13:18.080)
No, it's the opposite.
Michael Malice (1:13:18.960)
I feel like I've been given a new lease on life because I didn't realize to what extent
Michael Malice (1:13:22.480)
there was this subtext of hopelessness in New York and also people who in New York you
Michael Malice (1:13:27.520)
don't appreciate or you appreciate it consciously, but you can't escape it emotionally how much
Michael Malice (1:13:31.600)
the winters get to you psychologically.
Lex Fridman (1:13:34.720)
It's tough.
Michael Malice (1:13:35.600)
It gets dark so early, it gets cold, you can't walk around.
Michael Malice (1:13:38.240)
That's the thing that's fun about or what's fun about New York is that when the weather
Michael Malice (1:13:41.440)
is warm, you can walk for an hour and just enjoy the sunshine and there's a lot to see
Lex Fridman (1:13:45.120)
and do.
Lex Fridman (1:13:45.840)
But in the winter, you don't have any of that.
Lex Fridman (1:13:47.520)
It's brutal.
Lex Fridman (1:13:49.040)
And here it's just, so that is something.
Lex Fridman (1:13:51.440)
There's no melancholy at all.
Lex Fridman (1:13:53.840)
Well, that's because there's, can we say something beautiful about New York?
Lex Fridman (1:13:58.720)
Not the way it is now, but the way it...
Michael Malice (1:14:01.120)
I could go on for days about how great New York was.
Lex Fridman (1:14:04.080)
What did you learn about human civilization and just life that was beautiful from New York?
Michael Malice (1:14:09.280)
I learned that there's a lot of really unique special people out there who are doing their
Lex Fridman (1:14:20.160)
little part to move the envelope and make the world a better place.
Lex Fridman (1:14:24.080)
And that when you have a city where they're all there together at the same time, then
Lex Fridman (1:14:32.160)
that really moves the world.
Lex Fridman (1:14:33.360)
And I'm thinking of Paris in the 20s and Harlem in the 20s and New York in the 70s and LA
Michael Malice (1:14:40.640)
in the late 60s and San Francisco, especially in the late 60s, things like this.
Michael Malice (1:14:44.800)
They really punch above Detroit, certainly at its heyday.
Lex Fridman (1:14:47.520)
They punch above their weight and just really kind of Philadelphia in 1700s.
Michael Malice (1:14:53.360)
Things really start happening and that ripples throughout the world.
Lex Fridman (1:14:57.040)
You think Austin has a chance to be a Paris in some way?
Michael Malice (1:15:01.920)
Yes, because again, it wasn't all of Paris.
Michael Malice (1:15:04.800)
It was the left bank of Paris and Gertrude Stein and Hemingway and all them in a little
Michael Malice (1:15:08.880)
area.
Lex Fridman (1:15:09.680)
So when you read these history books, these scenes, it's like 50 people in a ten block
Michael Malice (1:15:15.280)
radius.
Lex Fridman (1:15:15.680)
These aren't these huge like Davos conventions.
Michael Malice (1:15:20.320)
Okay, so the move, the big move.
Lex Fridman (1:15:22.960)
What else?
Lex Fridman (1:15:23.600)
What else stands out to you?
Lex Fridman (1:15:24.960)
Again, both personally and socially, like zooming in and zooming out.
Michael Malice (1:15:30.240)
I did a book with a UFC fighter and I was making the point, he was a nine time world
Lex Fridman (1:15:35.760)
champion, that I would never be as good at my job as he was at his.
Lex Fridman (1:15:40.720)
And then when I dropped Anarchist Handbook in May and it was the top nonfiction book
Michael Malice (1:15:46.080)
on Amazon for like most of the day, I was like, oh, I'm the top nonfiction writer in
Michael Malice (1:15:50.720)
America just for today.
Lex Fridman (1:15:52.400)
I was like, oh, crap.
Michael Malice (1:15:53.120)
Okay, so I guess I was wrong.
Lex Fridman (1:15:54.800)
That was a major deal.
Michael Malice (1:15:56.400)
I was still shocked and delighted.
Lex Fridman (1:15:58.640)
By the way, congratulations and I'm truly happy for you, man.
Michael Malice (1:16:04.080)
I'm so proud.
Lex Fridman (1:16:05.280)
But it's also, I'm proud because these are people who had points of view and they didn't
Michael Malice (1:16:14.320)
have it easy and they fought for what they believed in.
Lex Fridman (1:16:17.680)
And insofar as I get to rescue them to some extent from the dustbin of history and say
Michael Malice (1:16:24.080)
these people really mattered and they really are worth hearing.
Lex Fridman (1:16:26.800)
That I love.
Michael Malice (1:16:27.600)
I love stuff like that.
Michael Malice (1:16:29.920)
I was talking to a friend of mine, Topher, like a year ago, because we're in a weird
Michael Malice (1:16:35.840)
position with what kind of jobs we have.
Lex Fridman (1:16:38.080)
So I'd be talking in my live streams about people like Candy Darling or Wallace Thurman
Lex Fridman (1:16:42.240)
and these are not household names at all.
Lex Fridman (1:16:45.600)
And then I'd be proud of myself that I'm the one who brings them to some sort of more
Michael Malice (1:16:50.400)
prominence.
Lex Fridman (1:16:51.440)
And then you want to tell yourself, well, get over yourself who you think you are.
Lex Fridman (1:16:54.160)
But it's like, but no one else is talking about these people or very few.
Lex Fridman (1:16:57.520)
So to be able to kind of give them some kind of stature and platform that they deserve,
Michael Malice (1:17:03.120)
I think is, I love being able to do that.
Lex Fridman (1:17:05.680)
So you have a strong voice yourself and to sort of join them in.
Michael Malice (1:17:09.840)
It's like John Lennon joining in with the Beatles is like a chorus of very different
Lex Fridman (1:17:17.360)
views on anarchism.
Michael Malice (1:17:18.960)
It's celebrating the individuals, it's celebrating the idea and you are, I think will be remembered
Michael Malice (1:17:28.320)
as a powerful philosopher yourself, but like you're almost taking just the humility of
Michael Malice (1:17:34.960)
being in a room with powerful minds together in one book.
Lex Fridman (1:17:38.080)
It's cool.
Michael Malice (1:17:38.800)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:17:39.040)
And that these people mattered and they had a unique perspective.
Lex Fridman (1:17:43.040)
And as I said in the introduction to the book, I remember I was in college and we were studying
Michael Malice (1:17:48.640)
bioethics and there was like a graph in the book and one part says antinomianism, which
Lex Fridman (1:17:54.720)
was the view that, and one side said legalism, right?
Lex Fridman (1:17:57.760)
The two extremes.
Michael Malice (1:17:58.960)
Legalism is what is legal is defined by the government or what is moral is defined by
Lex Fridman (1:18:03.440)
the government.
Lex Fridman (1:18:04.000)
And one said, antinomianism, which is nothing stands above moral law.
Lex Fridman (1:18:09.120)
And then there was like, well, since no one believes in this, the answer is something
Michael Malice (1:18:11.520)
to the other side.
Lex Fridman (1:18:12.160)
It's like, well, why is it on the charge no one believes?
Michael Malice (1:18:14.080)
If it has a name, someone believes in it.
Lex Fridman (1:18:15.520)
So anarchism is a word that's bandied about and in a dismissive way.
Lex Fridman (1:18:21.920)
And it's like, you don't have to like me or agree with what I'm saying, but you can't
Lex Fridman (1:18:24.960)
pretend that they weren't Tolstoy.
Michael Malice (1:18:26.960)
You're going to tell me Tolstoy doesn't know what he's talking about completely.
Lex Fridman (1:18:29.280)
He's in there.
Michael Malice (1:18:30.160)
He was an anarchist.
Lex Fridman (1:18:31.040)
So it was a big accomplishment.
Michael Malice (1:18:35.200)
It was really cool to get a chance to do the audio book.
Michael Malice (1:18:39.520)
You did an incredible thing, which has got a bunch of really cool people to read a lot
Michael Malice (1:18:44.960)
of interesting, varied people.
Lex Fridman (1:18:46.800)
So what I did for the audio book, which I don't like the idea that hard work is inherently
Michael Malice (1:18:51.920)
good because sometimes being lazy is actually the right choice.
Lex Fridman (1:18:55.840)
So I'm like, wait a minute.
Lex Fridman (1:18:56.720)
Why am I reading all 23 chapters when it's 23 different authors?
Lex Fridman (1:19:00.320)
Does it make sense?
Lex Fridman (1:19:01.360)
So I hit my Rolodex and I had different people read different chapters to make it sound
Lex Fridman (1:19:06.240)
literally like you have the different voices in the book.
Michael Malice (1:19:10.560)
Thank you very much.
Lex Fridman (1:19:11.440)
You did my because I was going to read my chapter.
Michael Malice (1:19:13.200)
Wait a minute.
Lex Fridman (1:19:13.760)
All the other authors are being read by somebody else.
Michael Malice (1:19:15.440)
Let's have Lex read mine.
Lex Fridman (1:19:17.040)
The one chapter I am most moved by is Lauren Chen.
Michael Malice (1:19:23.280)
She's a podcaster as well.
Lex Fridman (1:19:24.640)
She's expecting now.
Lex Fridman (1:19:25.920)
So we wish nothing but the best for Lauren and Liam and the Babby.
Michael Malice (1:19:29.840)
There's a chapter there by this guy named Charles Robert Plunkett called Dynamite.
Lex Fridman (1:19:34.640)
And he's advocating for making bombs and killing people, killing the forces of capitalism.
Lex Fridman (1:19:41.120)
And Emma Goldman was publishing her essay while she was on lecture tour and she was just like,
Lex Fridman (1:19:46.640)
why is this in here?
Lex Fridman (1:19:47.600)
This is just really going to make us look bad, so on and so forth.
Lex Fridman (1:19:51.840)
And when you're dealing with any kind of, you know, HL Mencken has that quote about
Michael Malice (1:19:56.720)
every rational man must at times be tempted to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag,
Lex Fridman (1:20:02.640)
and begin slitting throats.
Lex Fridman (1:20:03.840)
So I want it to sound like the seductive aspect of violence.
Michael Malice (1:20:10.480)
Like that's the problem when you're dealing with terrorism, when you're dealing with
Michael Malice (1:20:13.440)
political violence, to be able to understand how people can fall for this, how people can
Michael Malice (1:20:19.280)
be persuaded to think this is a good idea that I'm going to make some dynamite and
Michael Malice (1:20:24.480)
throw it into this crowd and kill police officers and innocent people possibly in service of
Michael Malice (1:20:29.920)
by, you have to, it's easy to say, oh, they're all crazy, but they're not, you know, even
Lex Fridman (1:20:35.840)
not most people who are crazy don't do these things, you know?
Lex Fridman (1:20:39.040)
So to have a woman read that chapter and I told her kind of read it like a phone sex
Michael Malice (1:20:44.720)
operator, because I wanted to have that siren song of like, so you can understand why this
Michael Malice (1:20:50.800)
calls out to people who are in the rope, the people who are like marginalized.
Lex Fridman (1:20:54.720)
And she did such a superb job with that chapter.
Michael Malice (1:20:57.280)
That's such a beautiful vision.
Michael Malice (1:20:58.960)
Yeah, because violence, that's a violence part of human history to a degree that it
Michael Malice (1:21:06.880)
must be seductive.
Lex Fridman (1:21:08.160)
It must be, there must be a strong pull.
Michael Malice (1:21:11.120)
Like it's not insane people.
Lex Fridman (1:21:14.400)
There's something probably deep within our nature that craves violence.
Lex Fridman (1:21:18.960)
And then when there is charismatic leaders that inspire that and revolution, you know,
Lex Fridman (1:21:25.120)
and revolution plus violence, I could see that being extremely seductive to us.
Michael Malice (1:21:33.360)
Like when you're truly suffering in your current situation, whatever it is, you're
Michael Malice (1:21:37.360)
being oppressed by governments or being oppressed by the powerful, violent revolution is
Michael Malice (1:21:44.720)
probably there's something deep within us that longs for that.
Lex Fridman (1:21:47.440)
And also this kind of the Jelaine Maxwell to Jeffrey Epstein, right?
Michael Malice (1:21:50.560)
You need that woman to be like, no, no, this is okay, honey.
Lex Fridman (1:21:54.160)
Yeah.
Michael Malice (1:21:54.640)
Come along.
Lex Fridman (1:21:55.440)
It's not a big deal.
Michael Malice (1:21:56.640)
Don't listen to what your parents told you.
Lex Fridman (1:21:58.240)
They're just prudes.
Michael Malice (1:21:59.520)
It's a siren song.
Lex Fridman (1:22:02.080)
What do you think about Jelaine Maxwell and the trial and so on?
Michael Malice (1:22:07.040)
Again, maybe the interesting story there is about the coverage of the trial.
Lex Fridman (1:22:13.680)
So like the story is more complex and interesting than the actual horrific acts themselves.
Lex Fridman (1:22:18.960)
So to me, I don't, maybe I'm not knowledgeable enough, but to me, she's also truly evil.
Lex Fridman (1:22:26.640)
I don't know where to, maybe you can help me to figure out who is more evil.
Michael Malice (1:22:32.880)
The, just like you said now, the person that says it's okay, it's okay, that helps
Lex Fridman (1:22:39.840)
the evildoer or is it the evildoer themselves?
Michael Malice (1:22:42.800)
I don't know, but I think she's a, she scares me more than Jeffrey Epstein somehow.
Lex Fridman (1:22:47.200)
There's people like that in the world.
Michael Malice (1:22:48.880)
I had a, like a Twitter poll.
Lex Fridman (1:22:50.240)
Do you think it's more evil or less evil to kill someone because you've been paid to do it?
Lex Fridman (1:22:55.680)
And people, the winning answer was more evil and I said it was less because I think in that case,
Michael Malice (1:23:04.160)
you can kind of check out, you could be like, this isn't my, I'm just doing a job.
Michael Malice (1:23:08.080)
I don't, you know, you kind of can, I think in a sense, if you have a certain mindset,
Michael Malice (1:23:14.240)
if you have a certain mindset, like intellect to remove yourself from the situation,
Michael Malice (1:23:18.160)
I'm just the conduit.
Lex Fridman (1:23:20.080)
When you were talking, I haven't been following her case that that much.
Michael Malice (1:23:24.560)
It's because you mostly watch CNN and CNN's not covering it.
Michael Malice (1:23:27.440)
Well, I think my broader point would be people who are untouchable and who know they're untouchable
Michael Malice (1:23:36.960)
do much worse things than those of us who aren't that way can appreciate.
Lex Fridman (1:23:43.360)
Like I was just talking about on Twitter about Rosemary Kennedy.
Michael Malice (1:23:48.880)
She was one of JFK's sisters.
Michael Malice (1:23:51.520)
It's not clear whether she was developmentally disabled or had like depressive mental illness.
Michael Malice (1:23:58.240)
There was something clearly off with her to some capacity.
Lex Fridman (1:24:01.920)
And at age 23, they gave her a lobotomy.
Lex Fridman (1:24:06.720)
And the thing with the lobotomy is you have to be conscious.
Lex Fridman (1:24:09.200)
They don't put you under.
Lex Fridman (1:24:10.720)
So you have to be counting backwards while their scalp was in your brain and they stopped.
Lex Fridman (1:24:14.720)
But they stopped.
Michael Malice (1:24:17.040)
They did too far.
Michael Malice (1:24:18.000)
She became mentally like a two year old, never had bladder control for the rest of her life,
Michael Malice (1:24:22.240)
couldn't really talk or walk.
Lex Fridman (1:24:24.720)
And when that happened, they just put her away to some home and they never mentioned her again.
Michael Malice (1:24:30.720)
They didn't tell the brothers or sisters where she went.
Lex Fridman (1:24:33.200)
The lobotomy was only revealed in 1987.
Lex Fridman (1:24:35.680)
And they pretended, oh, she's in this home for kids with special needs.
Lex Fridman (1:24:40.800)
And it's just like that to me is very, very scary that someone could do this to their...
Michael Malice (1:24:48.960)
I saw people respond like, oh, that was cutting edge technology at the time, ha ha.
Lex Fridman (1:24:54.240)
But I'm like, I don't think that that was really done that frequently or be hearing more about it,
Michael Malice (1:25:01.040)
all these botched lobotomies.
Lex Fridman (1:25:02.480)
And my understanding is lobotomies are very hard to...
Michael Malice (1:25:09.040)
They would want to do it if someone's a mass murderer or if someone's really bad,
Lex Fridman (1:25:12.400)
if the person's left an invalid, who cares kind of situation.
Lex Fridman (1:25:16.000)
But when you're dealing with something like this, she's not killing people.
Lex Fridman (1:25:19.840)
She's not assaulting people.
Michael Malice (1:25:21.680)
She's just difficult because she's making your vaunted family look bad.
Lex Fridman (1:25:25.920)
So that's, to you, that's, what is it, psychopathy or something like that?
Michael Malice (1:25:30.800)
You don't care about, you do horrific things and you don't really care.
Lex Fridman (1:25:34.880)
I can't diagnose Joe Kennedy.
Lex Fridman (1:25:37.280)
But what I would say, like with Jelayne Maxwell, I can't empathize because I don't understand...
Michael Malice (1:25:43.600)
First of all, even in a positive sense, I don't know what it's like to be grooming my son to be
Michael Malice (1:25:48.720)
the president and lost the other son in war.
Lex Fridman (1:25:51.760)
I don't know what that's like.
Michael Malice (1:25:53.280)
I don't know what it's like to be so wealthy.
Michael Malice (1:25:55.280)
Like you have to give Joe Kennedy credit because a lot of what he was fighting for
Michael Malice (1:25:59.120)
was to allow Irish people and Catholic people acceptance into like high society.
Lex Fridman (1:26:04.800)
And he was up against a lot of pressure with that.
Lex Fridman (1:26:07.040)
And he's like, I'm going to screw these people.
Lex Fridman (1:26:09.280)
I'm going to be recognized and we're going to make people recognized.
Lex Fridman (1:26:11.920)
So there's something to be said for that.
Lex Fridman (1:26:13.040)
But I mean, I can't relate to people like him.
Michael Malice (1:26:18.560)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:26:20.080)
But I mean, that like is just terrifying.
Michael Malice (1:26:23.280)
Like, I mean, one of the big reasons I'm an anarchist is like when you have someone who
Michael Malice (1:26:28.080)
has that sense of amount of power over somebody else, a lot of times they're going to do bad
Michael Malice (1:26:33.040)
things and have no consequences.
Lex Fridman (1:26:36.240)
Do you think in a, just like Maxwell case and Epstein case, do you think they were
Lex Fridman (1:26:43.440)
trying to blackmail people?
Lex Fridman (1:26:45.040)
Like trying the, what the conspiracy theory is kind of described
Michael Malice (1:26:49.360)
that's probably not too far away from reality.
Michael Malice (1:26:51.760)
That they intentionally tried to put powerful people in compromising situations so that
Michael Malice (1:26:57.840)
they can basically get more and more power.
Lex Fridman (1:27:01.360)
Yeah.
Michael Malice (1:27:01.860)
I think that was a Vanity Fair piece that you're referring to or Fortune.
Lex Fridman (1:27:05.520)
Oh, sorry.
Michael Malice (1:27:06.020)
I'm just referring to a general concept.
Michael Malice (1:27:07.680)
Oh, there was, so there was an article that broke this down because this article is either
Michael Malice (1:27:11.280)
Fortune, Businessweek, Vanity Fair, I don't remember a major, major reputable outlet.
Lex Fridman (1:27:15.200)
And they were, they made the, the reporter made the point, they asked around and they
Michael Malice (1:27:19.600)
go, this guy's a billionaire or extremely wealthy at least.
Lex Fridman (1:27:22.880)
No one I know ever traded with him.
Lex Fridman (1:27:25.120)
Like, where's his money coming from?
Lex Fridman (1:27:26.240)
There's no, there's no paper trail.
Lex Fridman (1:27:27.680)
So they're like, okay, if it's not trading and trades are public often, you know, where's
Lex Fridman (1:27:33.360)
this money coming from?
Lex Fridman (1:27:34.320)
And it's also like, why are all these people allowing Epstein to be their business manager
Lex Fridman (1:27:39.760)
when he has no kind of track record to show for it?
Lex Fridman (1:27:42.080)
So the hypothesis was he would get people into uncompromising situations with underage
Michael Malice (1:27:47.760)
girls, secretly film it, and then he would, you know, blackmail them accordingly.
Michael Malice (1:27:52.960)
Well, I guess that's the question.
Lex Fridman (1:27:54.000)
That would make sense.
Michael Malice (1:27:54.960)
I know it makes sense, but I also see a lot of evidence that he's just very charismatic
Lex Fridman (1:27:59.600)
in a room.
Michael Malice (1:28:00.400)
So, so, and I've also seen, you know, that's how human connections get made, like business
Lex Fridman (1:28:07.120)
deals get made.
Lex Fridman (1:28:07.840)
Yeah, but how, how, where's his money coming from?
Lex Fridman (1:28:10.800)
Oh, like they are rich people without blackmailing.
Michael Malice (1:28:14.720)
Just like him close, like him as a friend.
Lex Fridman (1:28:19.920)
I'm not arguing that.
Michael Malice (1:28:20.640)
Like, okay, I like Jeff Epstein, make sure you pull that quote.
Lex Fridman (1:28:24.000)
Yes.
Michael Malice (1:28:24.480)
I'm a business person.
Lex Fridman (1:28:25.120)
I like Jeff Epstein.
Michael Malice (1:28:25.920)
Michael Malice.
Lex Fridman (1:28:26.400)
I love Jeff.
Lex Fridman (1:28:27.120)
Like or love?
Lex Fridman (1:28:27.920)
Love.
Michael Malice (1:28:28.320)
I'm in love with this escalated quickly.
Michael Malice (1:28:31.600)
I'm going to hand over him to be my money manager to have 20% of my estate fine.
Michael Malice (1:28:36.960)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:28:38.240)
Where is he making the money for that 20%?
Michael Malice (1:28:41.520)
That's the thing that there's no paper trail.
Lex Fridman (1:28:43.040)
That's the thing that there's no paper trail, have him trading or anything.
Lex Fridman (1:28:45.920)
So I can understand.
Lex Fridman (1:28:46.720)
Oh, I see, see.
Michael Malice (1:28:47.680)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:28:48.800)
Interesting.
Lex Fridman (1:28:49.520)
What were your 2020 favorite moments?
Lex Fridman (1:28:52.960)
You mean 2021?
Michael Malice (1:28:54.400)
Yeah, 2021.
Lex Fridman (1:28:54.720)
Time flies when you have it.
Michael Malice (1:28:55.600)
Yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:28:57.840)
Clearly it's the Ghislaine Maxwell trial.
Michael Malice (1:29:00.240)
It just really stands out to me.
Lex Fridman (1:29:01.600)
It's very moving.
Michael Malice (1:29:02.720)
Which is why I bring it up.
Lex Fridman (1:29:04.560)
No.
Michael Malice (1:29:05.920)
Moving here.
Lex Fridman (1:29:06.880)
So moving here.
Lex Fridman (1:29:08.080)
But for me, I think we actually didn't cover that with you.
Lex Fridman (1:29:12.400)
And I'd love to get your comment.
Michael Malice (1:29:15.280)
Because you said it's for the first time in your life you moved.
Lex Fridman (1:29:17.680)
So it's not just about the place you go to.
Michael Malice (1:29:20.960)
It's the actual act of moving is also a leap.
Lex Fridman (1:29:24.400)
Oh, yeah.
Michael Malice (1:29:25.280)
The decision was that I'm going to give away my salary at MIT.
Lex Fridman (1:29:31.360)
So stop taking salary.
Michael Malice (1:29:33.520)
Give away the group.
Lex Fridman (1:29:35.040)
So students, no more research, the grant funding.
Michael Malice (1:29:38.800)
I still keep an MIT affiliation just because I have friends and colleagues
Lex Fridman (1:29:41.920)
there still doing research.
Lex Fridman (1:29:42.960)
But giving away really primarily is the source of money.
Lex Fridman (1:29:46.720)
So no salary.
Lex Fridman (1:29:47.920)
And let it go to zero.
Lex Fridman (1:29:49.520)
Let my bank account go to zero.
Lex Fridman (1:29:52.000)
And take a leap in San Francisco or elsewhere.
Lex Fridman (1:29:58.880)
And as COVID broke out, and a lot of people started talking to me about San Francisco,
Michael Malice (1:30:04.000)
about the cynicism there.
Lex Fridman (1:30:05.440)
And I would go there.
Lex Fridman (1:30:06.720)
And there was a kind of, so it's not all the woke stuff and all that kind of things.
Lex Fridman (1:30:11.760)
Which is also a problem.
Michael Malice (1:30:13.520)
It's less about dreaming about a big future, about building a big future, and more about
Michael Malice (1:30:19.920)
some kind of identity politic battles that they're just, you could say some aspect in
Michael Malice (1:30:25.680)
the positive light is important.
Lex Fridman (1:30:27.680)
But in a place like Silicon Valley, to me, the most important thing is to do big things.
Lex Fridman (1:30:34.160)
And for that to be most of the conversation.
Lex Fridman (1:30:39.040)
And so that cynicism was there.
Lex Fridman (1:30:40.640)
And then I went to look at Austin, and Austin was the opposite.
Lex Fridman (1:30:44.240)
It was the optimism.
Lex Fridman (1:30:45.840)
And you have people like, I talked to Elon, was the optimistic about making this the capital
Lex Fridman (1:30:53.040)
of artificial intelligence and technology and so on.
Lex Fridman (1:30:55.600)
And Mr. Joe Rogan, now just the optimism about making this the cultural capital of the world.
Lex Fridman (1:31:04.320)
I mean, specifically comedy, but it just radiates from them.
Michael Malice (1:31:07.920)
Just the excitement.
Lex Fridman (1:31:08.960)
And I've seen not many people of that nature in my life.
Lex Fridman (1:31:12.480)
And when I see that in their eyes, that engine, that fire of wanting to create something special
Lex Fridman (1:31:17.440)
about the place.
Michael Malice (1:31:18.640)
First of all, those people rarely fail.
Lex Fridman (1:31:20.960)
That's first of all.
Lex Fridman (1:31:21.680)
And second of all, that's contagious.
Lex Fridman (1:31:23.040)
It's contagious.
Michael Malice (1:31:23.840)
Very contagious.
Lex Fridman (1:31:25.200)
And so all that combined, for me, 2021 was the actual leap of taking the leap, saying,
Michael Malice (1:31:32.960)
all right, well, I'm actually going to do this, so not just giving away the salary,
Lex Fridman (1:31:39.360)
not giving away all of that, but the whole thing.
Michael Malice (1:31:42.400)
That's it.
Lex Fridman (1:31:43.200)
You just move to a place.
Michael Malice (1:31:44.720)
There's an empty building, and you're moving into it.
Lex Fridman (1:31:51.760)
And this is a new life.
Lex Fridman (1:31:53.360)
And that leap, I don't know.
Lex Fridman (1:31:54.720)
It's a scary leap to take, because I've taken that leap many times in my life.
Lex Fridman (1:31:59.520)
And this is where parents and all those kinds of cynicism is really destructive.
Lex Fridman (1:32:03.840)
Because from a cynical perspective, I worked at Google.
Lex Fridman (1:32:09.520)
So why leave Google?
Lex Fridman (1:32:10.800)
It's a very high paying salary that you can have at Google.
Michael Malice (1:32:14.880)
Then MIT.
Lex Fridman (1:32:16.080)
Why leave MIT?
Michael Malice (1:32:18.400)
It's MIT.
Lex Fridman (1:32:19.520)
This is you've always dreamed about.
Lex Fridman (1:32:21.760)
Why do you get a PhD?
Lex Fridman (1:32:23.280)
You've loved MIT all your life.
Lex Fridman (1:32:24.640)
Why leave MIT?
Michael Malice (1:32:25.680)
I mean, this is the same process I've gone through with a lot of things in life.
Michael Malice (1:32:29.040)
Like you've been saying every single stage.
Lex Fridman (1:32:31.600)
And you need that, you need friends, you need support groups and all those kinds
Michael Malice (1:32:35.920)
of things that are extremely important.
Lex Fridman (1:32:37.600)
But in the end, it's about taking the leap.
Lex Fridman (1:32:40.000)
And for me, 2021 was this leap.
Lex Fridman (1:32:42.480)
And to me, one of the most beautiful things you can do in life is to take those leaps.
Lex Fridman (1:32:48.480)
And that's something that I think is no longer a thing in New York.
Lex Fridman (1:32:51.360)
There's no sense of hope.
Michael Malice (1:32:52.960)
You don't go to New York now.
Michael Malice (1:32:56.080)
There's been such an assault and intentionally or otherwise, maybe it's inevitable,
Michael Malice (1:33:01.360)
they didn't have a choice.
Lex Fridman (1:33:02.480)
But there's been such an assault on creativity and small business in New York
Michael Malice (1:33:06.400)
that very few people who are in New York right now think things are going to get great soon.
Lex Fridman (1:33:11.680)
Whereas here, I feel every day is just something exciting is going to happen.
Lex Fridman (1:33:17.200)
And that's part of the culture and how the conversation goes.
Lex Fridman (1:33:20.000)
It's just in vogue to be cynical in New York and San Francisco.
Michael Malice (1:33:24.640)
I hope it changes because what I love about New York and what I love about Austin also
Michael Malice (1:33:30.240)
is the weirdos, the characters, just the variety of personalities that if you just walk around,
Michael Malice (1:33:38.640)
you get to meet them.
Lex Fridman (1:33:39.440)
And I think New York still has that, but it has the extra cynicism on top of it.
Michael Malice (1:33:44.240)
That's a negative.
Lex Fridman (1:33:45.440)
I mean, just becoming friends with Joe, he inspired me to be nicer to people,
Michael Malice (1:33:50.320)
to not take myself seriously, to be humble, to celebrate friends, not to be competitive.
Michael Malice (1:33:59.440)
Like all those things, since I started listening to his podcast from the very beginning,
Michael Malice (1:34:04.240)
it just radiated from the guy.
Michael Malice (1:34:06.720)
The thing that people don't appreciate is Joe Rogan likes it when you bust his chops.
Michael Malice (1:34:12.880)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:34:14.240)
I mean, a lot of people at that level, like if it's,
Michael Malice (1:34:17.120)
oh, Mr. Rogan, you're laughing at everything they say, they don't want that.
Michael Malice (1:34:20.000)
It's very phony and they feel uncomfortable because they know everything they say is hilarious.
Michael Malice (1:34:24.800)
I remember I went with him.
Lex Fridman (1:34:26.480)
He was doing a performance here and I was, yeah, you were there.
Lex Fridman (1:34:32.080)
And he was doing his set.
Lex Fridman (1:34:34.080)
And I'd reached the point now where I don't think of him as Joe Rogan.
Michael Malice (1:34:37.360)
You know, it's just like my buddy's doing stand up.
Lex Fridman (1:34:39.360)
You forget.
Lex Fridman (1:34:39.840)
And then I looked at the audience and I remember I'm like,
Lex Fridman (1:34:42.400)
oh, this is like a religious experience for these people.
Lex Fridman (1:34:44.960)
But you forget who he is because he doesn't carry himself like a big shot.
Lex Fridman (1:34:49.360)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:34:50.160)
And still, I mean, he gets competitive as fuck.
Lex Fridman (1:34:52.320)
Like I argue with him a lot.
Michael Malice (1:34:53.840)
I mean, when I talked to Francis Collins and Pfizer CEO,
Lex Fridman (1:34:57.920)
you better believe I heard from Joe.
Lex Fridman (1:35:00.960)
And then we would just get super drunk and argue about it.
Lex Fridman (1:35:04.000)
So it's, I mean, it's beautiful.
Lex Fridman (1:35:05.920)
And he gets really passionate.
Lex Fridman (1:35:08.160)
So it's not like, it's not like easy to argue with him,
Lex Fridman (1:35:11.440)
but that's great when you don't take it personally.
Lex Fridman (1:35:16.000)
It's fun.
Michael Malice (1:35:16.640)
As you and I discussed, and I'm sure he wouldn't mind us saying this,
Lex Fridman (1:35:20.160)
but like that moment when you first get a text from Joe Rogan
Lex Fridman (1:35:24.560)
and it's some boomer meme,
Lex Fridman (1:35:26.080)
like I finally felt like I've arrived as a person.
Lex Fridman (1:35:29.280)
A boomer meme?
Lex Fridman (1:35:30.560)
What kind of boomer meme are we talking about?
Michael Malice (1:35:32.000)
Like some silly meme, but it's just like,
Lex Fridman (1:35:33.840)
this is the kind of thing you can imagine someone's uncle posting on Facebook.
Michael Malice (1:35:36.480)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:35:36.960)
It's Joe Rogan texting it to you.
Michael Malice (1:35:39.120)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:35:39.600)
I mean, for me also with Elon, obviously,
Michael Malice (1:35:42.240)
there's a few people, I'm just saying folks that people know,
Lex Fridman (1:35:45.680)
also Jim Keller, who's worked with Elon.
Lex Fridman (1:35:48.720)
So I've had conversations with them,
Lex Fridman (1:35:50.480)
because it's just my line of work.
Michael Malice (1:35:52.320)
They're realizing that everything is possible in this world.
Lex Fridman (1:35:56.080)
Yeah, yeah.
Michael Malice (1:35:57.280)
Which is not the Russian mindset.
Lex Fridman (1:35:59.280)
Yeah.
Michael Malice (1:35:59.680)
Well, okay.
Lex Fridman (1:36:00.160)
All right.
Michael Malice (1:36:00.560)
That's, let's, uh.
Lex Fridman (1:36:02.480)
It's dialed down a notch.
Michael Malice (1:36:05.120)
It's dialed down a notch.
Lex Fridman (1:36:06.320)
Yeah, it's what Elon calls first principles thinking,
Lex Fridman (1:36:09.440)
but really it's just not being limited by the constraints of the past.
Lex Fridman (1:36:14.080)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (1:36:14.640)
And so saying like, okay, this is how things have been done,
Lex Fridman (1:36:17.680)
but can be done much, much better.
Lex Fridman (1:36:19.920)
And that has to do with manufacture.
Lex Fridman (1:36:22.240)
Like, how do we do this 10 times cheaper?
Michael Malice (1:36:27.520)
Like everyone says it's super expensive,
Lex Fridman (1:36:30.000)
but does it really need to be?
Michael Malice (1:36:31.840)
This is more of a question about manufacture,
Lex Fridman (1:36:33.520)
about how to build a product, how to build a product.
Lex Fridman (1:36:36.080)
How to actually have a product that scale that has an impact.
Lex Fridman (1:36:39.360)
And just having a very serious engineering,
Michael Malice (1:36:42.240)
like to the level of physics,
Lex Fridman (1:36:45.200)
discussion about building a thing and fucking doing it.
Lex Fridman (1:36:49.280)
And just being around people that did it and,
Lex Fridman (1:36:54.080)
you know, basically literally or figuratively said,
Michael Malice (1:36:58.400)
fuck you to everybody in the room that said they can't do it.
Lex Fridman (1:37:01.760)
And that, that energy.
Lex Fridman (1:37:03.120)
So that I've gotten to know Elon a lot better in 2021.
Lex Fridman (1:37:06.160)
That to me, it's like everything, the whole thing,
Michael Malice (1:37:09.200)
that moving here and being surrounded by the optimistic energy
Lex Fridman (1:37:13.520)
and then the individual interactions with people
Michael Malice (1:37:16.400)
that refuse to be like brought down by the,
Lex Fridman (1:37:21.200)
yeah, the cynicism.
Michael Malice (1:37:22.240)
The naysayers, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:37:23.120)
The naysayers.
Michael Malice (1:37:25.760)
That to me is what I'm going to remember this year for.
Lex Fridman (1:37:27.840)
And I hope it like materializes into something concrete
Michael Malice (1:37:33.840)
here in Austin.
Lex Fridman (1:37:34.560)
And I feel it's doing that.
Michael Malice (1:37:36.160)
I really am curious to be a fly on the wall.
Lex Fridman (1:37:39.520)
I'm sure it'll happen at some point,
Michael Malice (1:37:40.880)
watching you and Elon talk to each other.
Lex Fridman (1:37:43.040)
I guess he's even more of a robot than you.
Michael Malice (1:37:45.280)
He was on the Babylon Bee podcast
Lex Fridman (1:37:47.840)
and I was honored to be able to be in the room
Michael Malice (1:37:49.680)
while this was happening.
Lex Fridman (1:37:51.360)
And with the guys at the BeeDoo,
Michael Malice (1:37:53.440)
at the end of every podcast, they have like 10 questions.
Lex Fridman (1:37:57.680)
I don't think this is one of those.
Michael Malice (1:37:59.200)
No, no.
Lex Fridman (1:37:59.840)
And they go to Elon, would you rather be Batman or Iron Man?
Michael Malice (1:38:04.960)
Because they're both like multimillion industrialists.
Lex Fridman (1:38:07.840)
And Elon being Elon is like, well, let's think this through.
Michael Malice (1:38:11.680)
There's different kinds of bats.
Lex Fridman (1:38:12.800)
You've got fruit bats and you've got insect bats.
Lex Fridman (1:38:15.520)
Why is it called Batman?
Lex Fridman (1:38:16.400)
Batman can actually fly, right?
Michael Malice (1:38:17.680)
Bats can fly.
Lex Fridman (1:38:19.680)
And I'm just sitting there like, holy dude,
Michael Malice (1:38:20.800)
just answer the question.
Lex Fridman (1:38:21.600)
I was like, what?
Michael Malice (1:38:23.120)
It was so literal.
Lex Fridman (1:38:24.720)
I was like, damn.
Michael Malice (1:38:26.560)
I guess by this point, the release of the podcast with him,
Lex Fridman (1:38:30.160)
that's several hours and it's exactly as you would imagine.
Michael Malice (1:38:34.800)
It's exactly as you would imagine.
Lex Fridman (1:38:36.880)
There was this, did you watch the movie Her?
Michael Malice (1:38:39.840)
Yes, of course.
Lex Fridman (1:38:40.480)
So there's that one scene, it's when,
Lex Fridman (1:38:43.120)
is it Joaquin Phoenix?
Lex Fridman (1:38:43.840)
Who's the lead character?
Michael Malice (1:38:45.200)
Joaquin Phoenix.
Lex Fridman (1:38:46.400)
Yeah, so he's the lead and he falls in love with Siri basically,
Michael Malice (1:38:48.960)
who's played by Scarlett Johansson.
Lex Fridman (1:38:50.320)
And there's another artificial AI that she's talking to
Lex Fridman (1:38:54.400)
and she's like, oh, can I permission to go into nonverbal
Lex Fridman (1:38:57.920)
communication with this professor and the guy's like, sure.
Lex Fridman (1:39:01.920)
And they just started talking to each other in their robot.
Lex Fridman (1:39:04.080)
And I'm just imagining the two of you having this mind meld.
Michael Malice (1:39:07.200)
Well, so there's both the humor of that,
Lex Fridman (1:39:10.560)
but also the practical nature of the kind of conversations
Michael Malice (1:39:14.240)
to have, it's so great because it's problem solving mode.
Lex Fridman (1:39:19.120)
Okay, yeah, yeah, okay.
Michael Malice (1:39:20.800)
It's so cool.
Lex Fridman (1:39:21.200)
That is fun.
Michael Malice (1:39:21.680)
That is exciting.
Lex Fridman (1:39:22.560)
Because you stop completing sentences.
Michael Malice (1:39:25.520)
I actually feel at home because you don't need to say
Lex Fridman (1:39:28.320)
the full sentences anymore.
Michael Malice (1:39:30.000)
You could just say random words and you start to understand
Lex Fridman (1:39:34.080)
what you're talking about and then you can have multiple
Michael Malice (1:39:36.880)
conversations at the same time and go on these tangents.
Lex Fridman (1:39:40.320)
One of the biggest problems I have with podcasting for me
Michael Malice (1:39:43.440)
talking, I have to finish my sentences.
Lex Fridman (1:39:45.680)
I have to actually finish making a point,
Michael Malice (1:39:47.760)
which is a big problem because there's like a listener
Lex Fridman (1:39:50.880)
that needs to hear the point being finished as opposed
Michael Malice (1:39:53.520)
to completing your sentences inside your own mind.
Lex Fridman (1:39:59.600)
And like the thing I find is useful to Elon does exact
Michael Malice (1:40:03.040)
same thing is when the line of thinking is no longer useful,
Lex Fridman (1:40:08.640)
you just ran, you just switched to the next thing.
Michael Malice (1:40:11.680)
You just leave that whole thing behind.
Lex Fridman (1:40:13.440)
You don't need a nice transition.
Michael Malice (1:40:14.800)
You don't need any of that.
Lex Fridman (1:40:15.840)
And also just it's the first principles thing.
Michael Malice (1:40:19.920)
It's like zooming in on the elephant in the room.
Lex Fridman (1:40:24.720)
I love that.
Michael Malice (1:40:25.440)
It's so energizing.
Lex Fridman (1:40:27.360)
That's what I love about engineers.
Michael Malice (1:40:28.880)
It's not the maybe most eloquent communication style,
Lex Fridman (1:40:33.520)
but I love it.
Lex Fridman (1:40:35.840)
What about you?
Lex Fridman (1:40:36.400)
So you said moving the book, what else?
Lex Fridman (1:40:41.440)
And you've been really excited about that's Anarchist Handbook,
Lex Fridman (1:40:48.240)
but you've also been nonstop excited about White Film.
Michael Malice (1:40:51.600)
That was most of this year.
Lex Fridman (1:40:53.360)
You've been actually made significant progress.
Michael Malice (1:40:55.520)
I'm on page 40 of the second draft.
Lex Fridman (1:40:57.920)
And it's really kind of funny because when you're doing
Michael Malice (1:40:59.920)
your I think 10th book, I lost track already.
Lex Fridman (1:41:04.640)
The first draft is actually pretty good.
Michael Malice (1:41:06.320)
Like I'm going back and like, all right, this is going
Lex Fridman (1:41:08.000)
to be a whole slog.
Michael Malice (1:41:08.640)
I'm like, oh, I just have to cut and paste this
Lex Fridman (1:41:10.000)
and basically tweak a few words.
Lex Fridman (1:41:11.680)
So I did a good job with the first draft.
Lex Fridman (1:41:15.680)
It's also funny when you're writing how,
Lex Fridman (1:41:21.280)
and I guess this is the mark of a good professional writer,
Lex Fridman (1:41:26.800)
my personal feelings don't match how the characters
Michael Malice (1:41:30.960)
in the book come off.
Lex Fridman (1:41:32.800)
Like I have a lot of fondness for people like Emma Goldman
Lex Fridman (1:41:37.280)
and Alexander Berkman and they're early on in the book,
Lex Fridman (1:41:40.240)
but they're not good people.
Lex Fridman (1:41:42.080)
And I'm writing it objectively and whatever,
Lex Fridman (1:41:44.560)
and I'm reading this, I'm like, they come off much worse
Michael Malice (1:41:47.040)
than my personal appraisal of them.
Lex Fridman (1:41:52.080)
So it's kind of interesting as a writer when you're watching it,
Lex Fridman (1:41:55.040)
I guess, kind of like an attorney, right?
Lex Fridman (1:41:56.960)
Like you can have a situation where you as an attorney,
Michael Malice (1:41:59.760)
you have a lot of fondness for your client,
Lex Fridman (1:42:02.480)
but you realize that they probably did this thing
Michael Malice (1:42:04.560)
or you could not, it could be other way.
Lex Fridman (1:42:06.800)
Like they're innocent, but it's hard for you
Michael Malice (1:42:09.120)
to make a good case for them because the data's not there.
Lex Fridman (1:42:11.680)
Can you actually talk about your writing process
Lex Fridman (1:42:13.840)
in several ways?
Lex Fridman (1:42:14.400)
So one, your writing process, but two,
Michael Malice (1:42:16.080)
by way of advice of how to write.
Lex Fridman (1:42:18.960)
You've talked about in the past,
Michael Malice (1:42:20.080)
like your first draft is these kind of disparate
Lex Fridman (1:42:24.080)
or more chaotic in that you don't,
Michael Malice (1:42:25.680)
in the same way maybe I was saying
Lex Fridman (1:42:27.280)
in the engineering discussion,
Michael Malice (1:42:28.480)
you don't complete the sentences.
Lex Fridman (1:42:30.080)
It's just like thoughts.
Michael Malice (1:42:31.200)
The first like real good writing advice I remember getting
Lex Fridman (1:42:35.680)
was this book by Peggy Noonan called
Lex Fridman (1:42:38.320)
What I Saw at the Revolution.
Lex Fridman (1:42:40.400)
And she was Ron Reagan's speech writer.
Michael Malice (1:42:42.320)
She still writes for the Wall Street Journal.
Lex Fridman (1:42:45.680)
The book I bought was at a used bookstore
Michael Malice (1:42:47.680)
in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania when I was in college.
Lex Fridman (1:42:50.080)
The spine is cocked, I still have it, it was 99 cents.
Lex Fridman (1:42:54.400)
And she talked, when you're writing for a president,
Lex Fridman (1:42:56.800)
this is no joke, especially for a president
Michael Malice (1:42:59.280)
who's the great communicator, Reagan.
Lex Fridman (1:43:01.440)
So, and you have to be very inspirational,
Lex Fridman (1:43:04.800)
but also not come off as corny, which is very hard to do.
Lex Fridman (1:43:08.160)
And she in the book talks about how she wrote speeches
Michael Malice (1:43:10.640)
for him, how she, I'm paraphrasing her
Lex Fridman (1:43:13.920)
and I haven't read her book in a couple of decades,
Lex Fridman (1:43:16.960)
but basically she would write like a brain dump
Lex Fridman (1:43:19.520)
and it's just garbage.
Lex Fridman (1:43:20.480)
And she's like, that's okay, just get it all out there.
Lex Fridman (1:43:23.680)
And then there's that expression, all writing is editing.
Lex Fridman (1:43:26.880)
So for the White Pills specifically,
Lex Fridman (1:43:29.120)
this is, I don't know if it's the most ambitious book
Michael Malice (1:43:32.000)
I've ever done, your reader I think is more ambitious
Lex Fridman (1:43:34.160)
because that's all of North Korea's history
Lex Fridman (1:43:36.240)
and it's written in somebody else's voice,
Lex Fridman (1:43:37.440)
not a person's abortion.
Lex Fridman (1:43:38.720)
And you, like you mentioned, you had to read
Lex Fridman (1:43:41.280)
a giant number of books.
Michael Malice (1:43:42.240)
Yeah, 60 books as research, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:43:44.320)
Well, maybe can we just pause,
Lex Fridman (1:43:45.840)
can you say what White Pill is about?
Lex Fridman (1:43:48.560)
Sure, it's about hope and it's a tale of good and evil.
Lex Fridman (1:43:52.240)
And I think that's, I don't want to tip my hand too much,
Lex Fridman (1:43:55.600)
but people are always like, how do you think,
Lex Fridman (1:43:57.600)
why are you so hopeful?
Lex Fridman (1:43:58.960)
And I'm not hopeful on an emotional level,
Michael Malice (1:44:00.640)
I'm hopeful because looking at history,
Lex Fridman (1:44:03.040)
I think there's certain things that
Michael Malice (1:44:06.720)
not will certainly happen again,
Lex Fridman (1:44:08.400)
but it's not at all implausible to happen again
Lex Fridman (1:44:10.400)
and that the good guys will win.
Lex Fridman (1:44:12.320)
And this is one of those cases.
Michael Malice (1:44:14.000)
So, the book took on a life of its own,
Lex Fridman (1:44:19.440)
it's very different from how I originally conceived it.
Michael Malice (1:44:21.440)
I originally conceived it as a kind of retelling
Lex Fridman (1:44:24.320)
of Camus philosophy, Ryan Holiday,
Michael Malice (1:44:28.240)
who he used to be close friends with,
Lex Fridman (1:44:29.520)
I've talked to him in a while.
Michael Malice (1:44:30.480)
He has a whole kind of cottage industry
Lex Fridman (1:44:32.240)
based on the Stoics of the past.
Michael Malice (1:44:33.840)
I'm like, okay, I asked him once,
Lex Fridman (1:44:35.280)
can I do this with Camus?
Michael Malice (1:44:36.080)
He said, sure.
Lex Fridman (1:44:37.440)
And then I reread Camus recently
Lex Fridman (1:44:40.160)
and it wasn't what I had remembered.
Lex Fridman (1:44:43.120)
I was like, Camus wasn't that, I apologize to interrupt.
Michael Malice (1:44:45.760)
So, it's interesting.
Lex Fridman (1:44:47.120)
So, he kind of took ideas from Stoics
Lex Fridman (1:44:50.320)
and started to kind of use it as a book
Lex Fridman (1:44:54.880)
that gives you advice about how to live life
Michael Malice (1:44:56.800)
from the Stoic perspectives.
Lex Fridman (1:44:58.400)
And you were thinking,
Michael Malice (1:45:00.080)
is there something in existentialism, absurdism,
Lex Fridman (1:45:03.440)
or something specifically in Camus thinking,
Michael Malice (1:45:06.880)
or I think you've mentioned Mithos Sisyphus,
Lex Fridman (1:45:09.840)
specifically like his philosophical work.
Michael Malice (1:45:11.840)
So, you were trying to see like,
Lex Fridman (1:45:14.240)
is there, can I resurrect this?
Michael Malice (1:45:15.840)
That's actually, I would think,
Lex Fridman (1:45:20.400)
that's an interesting project.
Lex Fridman (1:45:22.640)
And it's sad to hear that it didn't materialize
Lex Fridman (1:45:28.640)
in exactly that form,
Michael Malice (1:45:31.520)
because I thought there would be a lot in that.
Lex Fridman (1:45:33.680)
So, I had Douglas Murray on my show
Lex Fridman (1:45:35.360)
and he also made the point,
Lex Fridman (1:45:36.400)
like when you go back and read Camus,
Michael Malice (1:45:37.680)
there's not that much there.
Lex Fridman (1:45:38.800)
The myth of Sisyphus is not at all how I remembered it.
Michael Malice (1:45:43.360)
The vast bulk of that book is like literary criticism.
Lex Fridman (1:45:46.800)
So, he's talking about Dostoevsky
Lex Fridman (1:45:48.080)
and all these different people
Lex Fridman (1:45:48.720)
who are embodiments of the absurd,
Lex Fridman (1:45:50.240)
but I'm like, there's not much to take from here.
Lex Fridman (1:45:52.960)
The actual title essay is basically
Michael Malice (1:45:55.280)
like a six chapter essay at the back of the book,
Lex Fridman (1:45:59.360)
which it's good for what it is,
Lex Fridman (1:46:02.400)
but there's not that much there to draw.
Lex Fridman (1:46:04.320)
I'm extremely, he's a great hero of mine.
Michael Malice (1:46:07.840)
I think his life is just enormously admirable.
Lex Fridman (1:46:10.800)
He fought very hard against the Nazi occupation.
Michael Malice (1:46:14.240)
His book, The Plague, which I find unreadable
Lex Fridman (1:46:16.640)
is an allegory about Germany conquering France
Lex Fridman (1:46:19.920)
and so on and so forth.
Lex Fridman (1:46:20.720)
Wait a minute, why is The Plague unreadable?
Michael Malice (1:46:23.680)
It's the kind of book where reading the book
Lex Fridman (1:46:25.680)
doesn't add anything to the plot.
Michael Malice (1:46:27.520)
The plot is a plague comes, sleeps over the town,
Lex Fridman (1:46:31.520)
destroys a lot of life and vanishes quickly as it came.
Michael Malice (1:46:34.000)
You don't need to read the book now.
Lex Fridman (1:46:35.440)
You get the point.
Michael Malice (1:46:36.080)
I deeply disagree with you.
Lex Fridman (1:46:38.880)
Yes, of course I've read The Plague.
Michael Malice (1:46:40.960)
To me, The Plague is about the doctor
Lex Fridman (1:46:43.520)
and it's about love and it's about the different roles
Michael Malice (1:46:47.920)
that humans take in a time of tragedy like The Plague.
Lex Fridman (1:46:53.760)
Also, it's an allegory, so you could start to think about
Michael Malice (1:46:58.400)
whether it's Nazi Germany, whatever you think that is.
Lex Fridman (1:47:01.920)
To me, that was about love and about the highest ideal
Michael Malice (1:47:06.640)
being the doctor that sacrifices themselves for others
Lex Fridman (1:47:10.640)
and still has love and hope.
Michael Malice (1:47:12.640)
I mean, to me, the way that story is told,
Lex Fridman (1:47:16.720)
I think, has a lot of meaning.
Michael Malice (1:47:19.040)
It's like, to me, you saying that's interesting.
Lex Fridman (1:47:22.000)
You say it this way, but to me, it's like saying
Michael Malice (1:47:24.560)
Animal Farm doesn't need to be read
Lex Fridman (1:47:28.640)
because it's an obvious story.
Michael Malice (1:47:31.280)
I don't think there's much plot to The Plague.
Lex Fridman (1:47:34.240)
I think Animal Farm has a very long plot
Lex Fridman (1:47:37.440)
and a complex plot.
Lex Fridman (1:47:38.800)
But there's experiences within.
Lex Fridman (1:47:42.000)
So the situation is set up in The Plague
Lex Fridman (1:47:44.000)
and there's experiences that start to reveal a philosophy.
Lex Fridman (1:47:48.480)
So yeah, it's not very plot driven.
Lex Fridman (1:47:53.360)
So I would say you still should read it,
Lex Fridman (1:47:56.560)
but The Plague doesn't...
Lex Fridman (1:47:58.160)
Like you didn't give away anything currently.
Michael Malice (1:48:03.280)
Some books are just...
Lex Fridman (1:48:04.400)
I mean, Ayn Rand is similar to that in the sense
Michael Malice (1:48:07.680)
like The Plague is not as important
Lex Fridman (1:48:09.840)
as the behavior of the different people in that plot.
Michael Malice (1:48:12.880)
I think she's very plot heavy.
Lex Fridman (1:48:15.120)
No, she has plot, but I'm saying
Michael Malice (1:48:16.720)
that's not necessarily the important thing.
Lex Fridman (1:48:19.120)
To me, the behavior of the people is the important thing.
Michael Malice (1:48:23.200)
You could like separate it into a bunch of blog posts
Lex Fridman (1:48:26.320)
and they stand on their own.
Michael Malice (1:48:28.160)
I would have to think about that with Ayn Rand.
Lex Fridman (1:48:32.480)
She does, through the plot, create a world
Michael Malice (1:48:34.880)
where you start to understand the different values
Lex Fridman (1:48:37.360)
that people have, but yeah.
Michael Malice (1:48:40.160)
Yeah, but that's what the plot serves.
Lex Fridman (1:48:44.320)
Yeah, I would have to think.
Lex Fridman (1:48:46.160)
But in The Plague, it's the behavior of the people
Lex Fridman (1:48:48.160)
that's really important.
Lex Fridman (1:48:49.280)
And the same, I mean, The Stranger too.
Lex Fridman (1:48:51.920)
I mean, these like...
Michael Malice (1:48:55.520)
I'm trying to scramble here for books
Lex Fridman (1:48:57.360)
I really appreciate that don't have a plot.
Michael Malice (1:48:59.680)
I mean, Notes from Underground.
Lex Fridman (1:49:04.640)
So obviously, Dostoevsky has a huge amount of plot
Michael Malice (1:49:07.200)
in most of his work.
Lex Fridman (1:49:09.360)
Hermann Hesse has a huge amount of plot.
Michael Malice (1:49:11.760)
Thomas Mann doesn't have the plot.
Lex Fridman (1:49:13.040)
He's the one who doesn't have plots.
Michael Malice (1:49:14.240)
Thomas Mann.
Lex Fridman (1:49:15.280)
Would you say Kafka has a plot?
Michael Malice (1:49:17.440)
I think Kafka's very heavy plot driven.
Lex Fridman (1:49:19.920)
Yeah, but I just don't see that, I guess.
Michael Malice (1:49:21.680)
I guess Metamorphosis doesn't really have a plot.
Lex Fridman (1:49:25.040)
Yeah, but there's like crawling around.
Lex Fridman (1:49:27.280)
But it's like a vignette.
Lex Fridman (1:49:28.240)
It's not really like this.
Michael Malice (1:49:29.440)
It's not short, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:49:30.160)
Yeah.
Michael Malice (1:49:30.720)
A Hunger Artist, one of my probably favorite short stories
Lex Fridman (1:49:34.720)
is that kind of a short story.
Michael Malice (1:49:35.840)
It's a pretty long short story of Kafka's.
Lex Fridman (1:49:38.480)
It's really interesting.
Michael Malice (1:49:40.240)
It's about a man.
Lex Fridman (1:49:41.360)
I don't know if you read it.
Michael Malice (1:49:42.400)
No, I don't think so.
Lex Fridman (1:49:43.920)
It's about a man that is like a freak in a sense
Michael Malice (1:49:48.160)
that his skill is that he can fast for a long time.
Lex Fridman (1:49:53.200)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:49:53.520)
And then people gather on the cage
Lex Fridman (1:49:55.040)
and look at him as he fasts.
Michael Malice (1:49:57.520)
I don't actually remember if he's in a cage or not.
Lex Fridman (1:50:00.800)
And eventually, he fasts so long
Michael Malice (1:50:03.200)
that people don't even care anymore.
Lex Fridman (1:50:04.880)
Like they just leave.
Lex Fridman (1:50:06.000)
So there's a, it has to do something.
Lex Fridman (1:50:11.200)
It makes me think about like, don't become,
Michael Malice (1:50:15.040)
the way you live, don't become like a freak show,
Lex Fridman (1:50:19.280)
a circus act.
Michael Malice (1:50:20.800)
Like live for an ideal, live for something that brings you joy.
Lex Fridman (1:50:25.920)
Or don't live for the sake of attention.
Michael Malice (1:50:27.680)
For the sake of attention.
Lex Fridman (1:50:28.640)
Yeah, that's, yeah.
Michael Malice (1:50:30.880)
Yeah, anyway, so I rudely interrupted
Lex Fridman (1:50:34.080)
because you were talking about the plague and connecting it
Michael Malice (1:50:36.560)
to the writing process of White Pill.
Lex Fridman (1:50:39.200)
Yeah.
Michael Malice (1:50:40.000)
Well, anyway, so how I was writing this one,
Lex Fridman (1:50:43.040)
I just had a first draft of notes
Lex Fridman (1:50:46.560)
and it's not in chronological order.
Lex Fridman (1:50:48.800)
It's like, I read certain books as research
Lex Fridman (1:50:50.960)
and then I had the pull quotes that was necessary there.
Lex Fridman (1:50:54.400)
And now I'm basically rearranging everything and putting it.
Lex Fridman (1:50:57.280)
So the book started as Ryan Holiday's.
Lex Fridman (1:51:01.040)
Right.
Michael Malice (1:51:01.360)
The equivalent of Ryan Holiday as Camus, the working title would have been
Lex Fridman (1:51:04.240)
The Point of Tears because this is great.
Michael Malice (1:51:06.880)
Camus is a great quote maker and he has this line about
Lex Fridman (1:51:11.520)
man must live, live to the point of tears,
Michael Malice (1:51:14.000)
which I think is just what I love about him is Camus,
Lex Fridman (1:51:19.440)
he always comes off as like he's clenching his teeth.
Michael Malice (1:51:22.480)
He's clenching his teeth both in terms of like
Lex Fridman (1:51:26.080)
barely mitigated rage and injustice.
Michael Malice (1:51:29.200)
Like when he sees people suffering, it just really makes him like
Lex Fridman (1:51:32.960)
just upset to the core.
Lex Fridman (1:51:34.800)
But also this sense of not taking life for granted
Lex Fridman (1:51:41.120)
and kind of just pushing yourself and pushing the boundaries.
Lex Fridman (1:51:44.160)
And his point being that life is inherently meaningless,
Lex Fridman (1:51:48.080)
which gives a great opportunity to impute meaning to it
Michael Malice (1:51:51.200)
to create our own meaning to life.
Lex Fridman (1:51:53.200)
So taking the main essay from Sisyphus,
Michael Malice (1:51:56.000)
myth of Sisyphus, that was the origin story for the white pill,
Lex Fridman (1:52:00.240)
but then it became something completely different.
Michael Malice (1:52:02.000)
Yeah. And so then it became, how are you so optimistic
Lex Fridman (1:52:05.600)
in the face of everything that's going on in the world?
Lex Fridman (1:52:07.360)
And I started writing it when COVID started hitting.
Lex Fridman (1:52:10.480)
And I, because again, I'm not optimistic
Michael Malice (1:52:14.000)
because of some temperament of mine.
Lex Fridman (1:52:16.480)
I'm optimistic because, you know, people talk about how
Michael Malice (1:52:19.840)
if the US didn't exist, China would just become an empire
Lex Fridman (1:52:23.680)
and take over everything.
Michael Malice (1:52:24.720)
Empires are expensive and look at the British empire,
Lex Fridman (1:52:30.160)
you know, look at the Soviet Union.
Michael Malice (1:52:31.760)
Like it's not automatically sustainable.
Lex Fridman (1:52:34.880)
It costs a lot of things to make sure when you're geographically,
Michael Malice (1:52:40.800)
you know, all over the world, literally,
Lex Fridman (1:52:43.760)
to keep everyone in line.
Michael Malice (1:52:44.880)
It's not at all like a super villain movie.
Lex Fridman (1:52:47.520)
Like once it happens, it's the happy ending for them.
Lex Fridman (1:52:50.080)
So yeah, that was the start.
Lex Fridman (1:52:53.280)
And I'm like, all right, let me tell, one thing I'm good at
Michael Malice (1:52:57.840)
is telling stories.
Lex Fridman (1:52:58.960)
So this is really a...
Lex Fridman (1:53:00.400)
So this is narrative, plot driven.
Lex Fridman (1:53:03.200)
Very, very plot driven and also heavily character driven,
Lex Fridman (1:53:06.560)
but the characters are real.
Lex Fridman (1:53:08.320)
Yeah. Got it.
Lex Fridman (1:53:09.600)
So it's interesting to kind of mention what kind of,
Lex Fridman (1:53:14.080)
what does the first draft kind of look like in terms of,
Lex Fridman (1:53:17.280)
what kind of things do you plop down?
Lex Fridman (1:53:19.360)
Oh, so it'll be like, let's suppose I just read a,
Michael Malice (1:53:22.080)
like, you know, some book called The Guillotine at Work,
Lex Fridman (1:53:24.400)
which was an early book attacking Lenin
Michael Malice (1:53:26.880)
from the anarcho communist perspective.
Lex Fridman (1:53:29.040)
So it'll just be like all the different quotes,
Michael Malice (1:53:30.720)
like a paragraph here, double space, another paragraph,
Lex Fridman (1:53:33.200)
you know, blah, blah, blah, so on and so forth.
Michael Malice (1:53:36.160)
Whereas for other sections where I wasn't just using
Lex Fridman (1:53:39.440)
the book as research, there would be like talking
Michael Malice (1:53:42.240)
about McKinley getting shot.
Lex Fridman (1:53:43.760)
Like it's just me writing the narrative and that I could just
Michael Malice (1:53:46.720)
pretty much copy paste into the second draft.
Lex Fridman (1:53:49.040)
By way of advice, would you give that as advice?
Lex Fridman (1:53:52.960)
Is that a good way to do it?
Lex Fridman (1:53:54.560)
Or is that a very peculiar way your brain works?
Michael Malice (1:53:56.720)
No, so this is actually advice I feel comfortable giving
Lex Fridman (1:53:59.120)
to people who are trying to write.
Lex Fridman (1:54:02.320)
Because it's just like with the gym, right?
Lex Fridman (1:54:04.720)
If you did seven sets, seven, excuse me, reps last week
Lex Fridman (1:54:08.640)
and you did eight this week, it's psychologically motivating
Lex Fridman (1:54:11.920)
because you're going the right direction
Lex Fridman (1:54:13.280)
and the human mind extrapolates.
Lex Fridman (1:54:14.960)
So make sure, tell yourself I'm gonna get a page done today
Michael Malice (1:54:19.520)
or two pages done, sit your ass down on the computer,
Lex Fridman (1:54:22.400)
you're not allowed to get up till you get those two pages.
Michael Malice (1:54:24.800)
It doesn't matter if they look like garbage
Lex Fridman (1:54:26.640)
because if you have a 300 page first draft and it's crap,
Michael Malice (1:54:31.280)
at least you have something to work with
Lex Fridman (1:54:33.120)
and that's a big number.
Lex Fridman (1:54:34.480)
So if you're gonna, the thing is, since the first draft
Lex Fridman (1:54:37.680)
is gonna be crap, if you're editing as you write,
Michael Malice (1:54:40.560)
it's gonna be extremely discouraging.
Lex Fridman (1:54:42.240)
And it's also trying to drive and doing reverse
Michael Malice (1:54:45.360)
at the same time.
Lex Fridman (1:54:46.160)
It's a completely nonsensical way to do it.
Michael Malice (1:54:48.800)
Get it all out there, don't look it over.
Lex Fridman (1:54:51.280)
If you have a great line, put it in your phone
Lex Fridman (1:54:52.880)
and then add it to the draft so it'll be a complete slog.
Lex Fridman (1:54:57.200)
But editing that slog is gonna be a lot easier
Michael Malice (1:54:59.120)
than creating it to begin with.
Lex Fridman (1:55:00.320)
And when you see those disparate lines all laid out
Michael Malice (1:55:03.280)
on the page, how difficult is it to then start
Lex Fridman (1:55:07.200)
stitching it together?
Lex Fridman (1:55:08.000)
Do you find that when you look at a list of those things
Lex Fridman (1:55:11.920)
the final product will look very different
Lex Fridman (1:55:15.120)
or will you actually use those lines?
Lex Fridman (1:55:17.360)
No, I will use those lines.
Michael Malice (1:55:18.640)
Then I have a file called scraps.
Lex Fridman (1:55:20.640)
So like if the line's no longer used,
Michael Malice (1:55:22.160)
I put it in my scrap pile.
Lex Fridman (1:55:24.320)
I'd love to see what's in the scrap pile.
Michael Malice (1:55:26.160)
Okay, yeah, sure.
Lex Fridman (1:55:28.160)
One of the things I've been pulling scraps
Michael Malice (1:55:29.760)
is a lot of times when I was earlier writing,
Lex Fridman (1:55:32.480)
I would have contemporary references
Lex Fridman (1:55:35.280)
and I realized that that's bad because I want the reader
Lex Fridman (1:55:40.480)
to be in the past as the present.
Lex Fridman (1:55:43.040)
So if you're talking about let's say 1901
Lex Fridman (1:55:45.440)
and then you're referring to Obama,
Michael Malice (1:55:46.640)
that screws people up so I had to pull all those.
Lex Fridman (1:55:50.320)
Okay, let's talk about some New Year's resolutions.
Lex Fridman (1:55:53.360)
Do you ever do New Year's resolutions?
Lex Fridman (1:55:55.040)
Do you ever think like that, like take a special day
Michael Malice (1:55:58.400)
in the year to think about how you're gonna try
Lex Fridman (1:56:01.040)
to change yourself or do you try to transform yourself
Lex Fridman (1:56:03.840)
every single day when you wake up?
Lex Fridman (1:56:05.920)
Well, I usually have several projects I'm working on at once
Lex Fridman (1:56:08.800)
so there's always incremental progress in those.
Lex Fridman (1:56:12.160)
You know, it's nice to have a deadline
Lex Fridman (1:56:13.360)
but at the end of 2022, I'll accomplish this,
Lex Fridman (1:56:17.920)
kind of like to hold yourself responsible
Lex Fridman (1:56:21.360)
and then you could do that at the beginning of the year
Lex Fridman (1:56:23.840)
to think about that, both philosophically
Michael Malice (1:56:26.560)
like what kind of big, not projects that you can quantify
Lex Fridman (1:56:31.120)
but more like how can I change my life
Michael Malice (1:56:33.120)
or like I mentioned, take the leap of different kinds
Lex Fridman (1:56:35.760)
and then there's specific things like finish the book.
Michael Malice (1:56:39.280)
I, years ago and I'm, I think on some level,
Lex Fridman (1:56:44.400)
you much less than me but I think you're increasing
Michael Malice (1:56:46.560)
in this direction, I realized it's more,
Lex Fridman (1:56:49.440)
I have to learn how to be a surfer and not a driver
Michael Malice (1:56:53.120)
because when you reach the level we're at in our careers
Lex Fridman (1:56:56.320)
or in our place in the culture, a lot of this is luck
Lex Fridman (1:57:00.720)
and a lot of this is just like I'm just going along
Lex Fridman (1:57:04.320)
for the ride because it's kind of counterintuitive
Michael Malice (1:57:07.520)
like the success of the Anarchist Handbook
Lex Fridman (1:57:10.160)
was counterintuitive.
Lex Fridman (1:57:12.560)
So all I'm hoping for is getting the book done.
Lex Fridman (1:57:18.400)
I am extremely proud of it and just also building a,
Michael Malice (1:57:28.320)
we had Thanksgiving together at Blair's house,
Lex Fridman (1:57:30.640)
just building a great upcoming community here in Austin
Michael Malice (1:57:35.520)
which has happened very quickly.
Lex Fridman (1:57:38.400)
I was, there was gonna be another surprise here.
Michael Malice (1:57:42.800)
There's a girl named Natalie SideSurf
Lex Fridman (1:57:45.840)
and she makes these ultra realistic cakes
Michael Malice (1:57:48.240)
like if you've seen those cakes online
Lex Fridman (1:57:49.680)
where it looks like you're cutting a puppy,
Michael Malice (1:57:51.040)
like she makes those kinds of things.
Lex Fridman (1:57:52.320)
So she's here.
Lex Fridman (1:57:54.080)
In Austin?
Lex Fridman (1:57:54.560)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:57:55.040)
Oh cool, like moved permanently?
Lex Fridman (1:57:57.040)
I think she's been here for a while.
Michael Malice (1:57:58.160)
I haven't met her yet but I just kind of chatted with her.
Lex Fridman (1:58:01.280)
So it's just so many, there's so many scenes happening here
Michael Malice (1:58:07.520)
that are overlapping.
Lex Fridman (1:58:09.440)
So in general, finish the book, keep building a community.
Michael Malice (1:58:14.080)
You've already been doing that here.
Lex Fridman (1:58:15.360)
You've been here several months.
Michael Malice (1:58:16.720)
I've been making a point to introduce people to each other
Lex Fridman (1:58:18.960)
and everyone's just really getting along very well.
Michael Malice (1:58:21.520)
That's great and the book is the focus.
Lex Fridman (1:58:24.400)
The book is the focus.
Lex Fridman (1:58:25.840)
What about the podcast that you're doing?
Lex Fridman (1:58:28.400)
You're welcome.
Michael Malice (1:58:29.520)
Yeah, I mean I enjoy it and it's been growing a lot.
Lex Fridman (1:58:33.360)
I finally got a new computer which my friend Jay installed
Lex Fridman (1:58:37.600)
so I can have a decent camera because of my old,
Lex Fridman (1:58:41.600)
this is my mindset as a hoarder.
Michael Malice (1:58:43.760)
Like I was more interested in spending money
Lex Fridman (1:58:47.120)
on a Pareto autograph than actually getting a computer
Michael Malice (1:58:49.520)
that's from the 20th century.
Lex Fridman (1:58:52.240)
So, but I'm such an old school person in that in my head,
Michael Malice (1:59:00.240)
podcasts are like so ephemeral.
Lex Fridman (1:59:02.880)
Like I don't, like there's some episodes of my podcast
Michael Malice (1:59:06.080)
that I'm really proud of and there's a lot of friendships
Lex Fridman (1:59:08.240)
I've made as a result of it that really mean a lot to me.
Michael Malice (1:59:10.240)
No question.
Lex Fridman (1:59:10.880)
It's made my life profoundly better place.
Lex Fridman (1:59:13.040)
But it's not the same as that book on the shelf,
Lex Fridman (1:59:15.760)
especially when the book is something that I think matters
Michael Malice (1:59:19.760)
much more than I do.
Lex Fridman (1:59:20.720)
Yeah, there's a permanence to it.
Michael Malice (1:59:22.080)
There's a seriousness to laying down the words on paper,
Lex Fridman (1:59:26.320)
like really giving them thought.
Michael Malice (1:59:27.920)
Yeah, that's true.
Lex Fridman (1:59:30.320)
I mean, I'm a huge fan of podcasts.
Michael Malice (1:59:32.480)
You don't listen to podcasts much.
Lex Fridman (1:59:34.640)
It's just fascinating to.
Michael Malice (1:59:36.800)
Yeah, like at all.
Lex Fridman (1:59:38.080)
Like I don't know how mine is so successful.
Michael Malice (1:59:39.920)
Like it's just, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:59:43.680)
Yeah, yeah, I just love the medium.
Michael Malice (1:59:45.840)
Yeah, but I love the authenticity, the authenticity.
Lex Fridman (1:59:49.840)
The realness of the medium.
Michael Malice (1:59:52.640)
That's really nice.
Lex Fridman (1:59:53.680)
I just understood for the, it's starting to click
Michael Malice (1:59:57.280)
because like my pal Blair White, she was just on Rogan
Michael Malice (20:06.840)
curiosity for science, which he did. He was curious about not just boring minutia of science.
Michael Malice (20:15.080)
He was interested about the big questions in science, which I could see that become exciting
Michael Malice (20:19.800)
to scientists. Like, oh wow, here's a person who's thinking big. That's always exciting.
Michael Malice (20:25.000)
When somebody goes into a room and thinks about how do we solve intelligence? How do we travel
Michael Malice (20:31.160)
faster than the speed of light? That's exciting to people, especially people with money because
Michael Malice (20:35.800)
it's like, all right, so we might be able to actually do big things here. But you could see
Michael Malice (20:41.080)
through the bullshit, the deadness in the eyes. I don't know. So I think about that because I feel
Michael Malice (20:48.680)
like I have the responsibility for me as an individual to detect evil. So I, do you know
Michael Malice (20:54.760)
who Michael Allig is? Okay. This is going to be a whole long, this is going to be on Lex Clips,
Lex Fridman (21:00.040)
but this is a whole long story. So there was a scene in New York in the nineties called the
Michael Malice (21:04.520)
Club Kids. And they would go out to different nightclubs at night. They would all dress in
Michael Malice (21:09.560)
really kind of crazy costumes. And the costumes were all like goofy and like just like an angel.
Michael Malice (21:17.160)
This was dressed like a nurse. There was a juvenile aspect to it. They're all taking,
Michael Malice (21:21.640)
you know, ketamine and ecstasy to all hours. This is kind of, rape culture was coming up in there.
Lex Fridman (21:27.640)
And ahead of it, and in fact, there's a clip on YouTube. I think it was the Jane Whitney show
Michael Malice (21:34.680)
of the Club Kids and Gigi Allen. Gigi Allen is a, you know, kind of punk rock performer,
Michael Malice (21:40.120)
hard rock performer who passed away. And the audience and Gigi Allen was very aggressive and
Michael Malice (21:46.920)
like a crazy person. My friend once saw him in a concert and he took a dump on stage,
Michael Malice (21:53.400)
smeared it all over his face, grabbed the girl from the audience, gave her a big kiss.
Lex Fridman (21:57.400)
And as she walked by him, she just went like this, like, excuse me, like went to the bathroom.
Lex Fridman (22:02.440)
So the audience is screaming at Gigi Allen because he's very visibly over the top.
Michael Malice (22:06.600)
Whereas you got a bunch of these kids dressed in these silly costumes, you guys just having fun.
Michael Malice (22:10.520)
Well, the head of the Club Kids, Michael Allig, ended up killing someone. There was a kid called
Michael Malice (22:14.680)
Angel Menendez who hung around with them. He would always have angel wings and boots.
Michael Malice (22:19.560)
One time they're at Michael's condo with another drug dealer named Freeze. They got into a fight.
Lex Fridman (22:27.160)
So Angel got hit in the head with a hammer. They kill him. What are we going to do with the body?
Michael Malice (22:32.360)
They put it on ice in the bathtub. They had a party. So everyone's going to the bathroom while
Michael Malice (22:36.840)
Angel's body's there. Michael got, they're like, all right, we got to take care of this. Michael
Michael Malice (22:41.000)
got extremely high in heroin, had like a cutlery from Macy's, saw the body in pieces, put it in a
Michael Malice (22:48.040)
box. They took him in a cab. The cab driver helped them throw the body into the river.
Lex Fridman (22:52.760)
And then Michael starts walking around Manhattan wearing Angel's boots and would tell people,
Michael Malice (22:57.320)
oh, I killed Angel. Now, because he was a super effeminate, over the top, like he would pee in
Michael Malice (23:02.120)
people's beer kind of guy, everyone's like, oh God, Michael, like you and your stupid pranks.
Lex Fridman (23:07.480)
But it was true. And he got caught and he got sentenced to jail. So I was in a store in Manhattan
Michael Malice (23:15.320)
in Soho. And it was one of those stores where you have like all sorts of things for sale.
Lex Fridman (23:19.240)
And I saw a painting and it said Malice. And I'm like, wait, what? And it was M. Allig. It was a
Michael Malice (23:24.280)
Michael Allig painting. He had painted while in jail. So my mom bought it for me for my birthday.
Michael Malice (23:28.200)
I don't remember what birthday it was. And I started writing to him in prison. He was going
Michael Malice (23:32.440)
to write a memoir called Aligula, which is clever. And then I actually went to visit him. I'm like,
Michael Malice (23:37.800)
I want to see what this person's like. Because on one hand, he's king of New York nightlife,
Michael Malice (23:41.960)
this goofy person. And it's also kind of ironic that G.G. Allen is like, maybe he's gross. He's
Michael Malice (23:46.680)
not killing anybody. He's probably an accountant off the stage. And Michael Allig actually did
Michael Malice (23:49.800)
kill someone and then bragged about it, tongue in cheek. But meeting him, he passed away last
Michael Malice (23:56.440)
December, on Christmas actually, on Christmas 2020. He was clearly a sociopath. And I'd never
Michael Malice (24:07.480)
met a sociopath before. Now, a lot of times you'll read these, you'll take a BuzzFeed quiz, like,
Michael Malice (24:12.520)
are you a sociopath? And it's like, oh, my feelings weren't hurt when I was mean to someone. It's not
Michael Malice (24:17.880)
a thin line between me and you and him. It's a thick, thick line. Because when you're talking
Michael Malice (24:25.400)
to someone like that, at least in this specific case, he was being very friendly. And it's not
Michael Malice (24:30.040)
like he was going to kill anyone or as a threat to me. But there's that sense like something's
Michael Malice (24:36.200)
really off here. And he was talking to me about how after he had killed Angel, he would just talk
Michael Malice (24:43.320)
about it because he felt so much guilt. He just wanted to get caught. It's like, no, no, no. What
Michael Malice (24:48.760)
he was describing wasn't guilt. He was describing just he didn't like the knife over his head,
Michael Malice (24:54.600)
like waiting to get caught. I'm like, you don't even know what guilt is? So it was kind of like,
Michael Malice (24:58.200)
oh, wow. But the thing is Michael Allig was in a very low social position. And the thing is when
Michael Malice (25:07.400)
someone is powerful, very high status, and they do something, we are as kind of hierarchical animals,
Michael Malice (25:16.280)
we kind of defer to their norms. So if you're at a party with, let's suppose,
Michael Malice (25:23.160)
either of us, and it's like a Jeffrey Epstein party, and everyone at the party is doing some
Michael Malice (25:27.800)
sort of weird drug we've never heard of, we wouldn't really feel comfortable judging them
Michael Malice (25:33.640)
because like their norms kind of become the norm for that space. The lesson for me about Jeffrey
Michael Malice (25:41.080)
Epstein, there's a lot of them because I think to me, the biggest moment was the Amy Rohrbach
Michael Malice (25:48.280)
situation. Amy Rohrbach was caught on a hot mic saying that they had all the goods on him,
Michael Malice (25:54.280)
they had all the names, and that Buckingham Palace called them, they killed the story because they
Michael Malice (25:59.560)
weren't going to get a Meghan Markle interview out of it. So that, the willingness of those in power
Michael Malice (26:06.440)
to do the wrong thing for the flimsiest pretext, I think was a big important lesson. Also the fact
Michael Malice (26:13.640)
that no one at ABC had any consequences for this. In fact, the only person who got in trouble for
Michael Malice (26:20.920)
all this was someone who used to work at ABC, went to I believe CBS, and they got fired from CBS
Michael Malice (26:26.760)
because apparently they had access to footage at one point, even though they weren't the ones who
Michael Malice (26:29.880)
had leaked it. So whistleblowers are like the only, for example, the case in Eric Garner,
Michael Malice (26:37.720)
the guy who was selling Lucy cigarettes in New York City, who was arrested, he had a heart
Michael Malice (26:43.480)
attack or whatever it was on the way to jail, he died. So the cops had a situation, the only person
Michael Malice (26:49.320)
who had gotten in trouble because of that was the guy filming it, he went to jail. So I think there's
Michael Malice (26:55.480)
a lesson in terms of, look at Julian Assange, right? There's a huge amount of power exercised
Michael Malice (27:02.200)
by elites to make sure that what is done on the cover of darkness remains on the cover of darkness.
Lex Fridman (27:07.720)
And also Kevin McCarthy, who was currently the House Minority Leader, leader of the Republicans,
Michael Malice (27:12.360)
he wrote a letter to ABC News, like, you had this guy, maybe you couldn't call in the authorities,
Lex Fridman (27:18.680)
but you could have leaked it to somebody, why hasn't anything come forward? Nothing happened
Michael Malice (27:22.520)
as a result of this. We also have to keep in mind that the longest serving Republican Speaker of
Michael Malice (27:27.000)
the House in history, Dennis Hastert, went to jail because of things related to pedophilia and things
Michael Malice (27:30.840)
like that. So as Russians, and this is something I think you and I have mentioned before, Americans
Michael Malice (27:37.720)
are very naive, often decreasingly so, about the nature of evil. They think an evil person is
Michael Malice (27:44.200)
someone who's getting kickbacks or the Cuomos are colluding, something like that. I would hardly even
Michael Malice (27:50.520)
call that evil. No, no, this is the sort of things that are so depraved that you would never think
Michael Malice (27:57.240)
about it in a million years in your own home. You don't think in these terms. And I think they get
Michael Malice (28:01.560)
off on doing things that if the average person heard about it, the average person would be shocked
Michael Malice (28:07.560)
because that gives them this sense of we're above them, we're different from them.
Michael Malice (28:10.600)
The rules don't apply to us. There's a lot to say here. So what is the norm thing you said
Michael Malice (28:14.920)
at a party? It's really interesting for an NR cast to say that. Well, no, it's this. No, well,
Michael Malice (28:21.000)
I know, I know. I'm not, sorry, that came off as criticism. I meant it as harsh criticism.
Michael Malice (28:28.600)
No, I think about that a lot. I found myself in situations where I'm invited to these kinds of
Michael Malice (28:38.120)
parties where people have nice things. And I find it deeply uncomfortable for that reason.
Michael Malice (28:45.080)
I don't want to be sort of an activist that goes in and ruins a party. I think that's not the
Michael Malice (28:52.520)
courageous act. Neither is it courageous when everyone's doing some weird drug that you mentioned
Michael Malice (28:57.880)
to join in, I think. Courageous is more being, remaining yourself, sticking to your principles,
Michael Malice (29:06.840)
calmly in that room where everybody is doing the drug. And just don't do the drug. Don't make a
Michael Malice (29:12.040)
scene about it, but also don't do it. And I think that little act of courage over time is the way
Michael Malice (29:18.200)
you resist Jeffrey Epstein. That exactly the thing you said is probably the situation where charisma
Michael Malice (29:24.600)
works. So one charismatic person gets the little crowd going and the crowd is everybody sort of
Michael Malice (29:30.840)
is everybody sort of establishes a norm at the little crowd. And yes, there could be some dynamics
Michael Malice (29:39.160)
that allow that norm to be established. Like you said, like rich and powerful people might
Michael Malice (29:44.920)
enjoy being rich and powerful and better than everybody else kind of thing. But
Michael Malice (29:52.280)
like I, especially for scientists, I thought they should have integrity and courage enough to
Michael Malice (29:58.680)
to see through that. Not again, as an activist, like so you can tweet about it, how courageous you
Lex Fridman (2:00:01.360)
and the first 10 minutes, I was so angry.
Michael Malice (2:00:05.920)
Like I was sitting there like yelling at the screen
Lex Fridman (2:00:08.560)
because Joe and Blair, you would think that they're
Michael Malice (2:00:12.000)
going to start talking about Trump or trans issues
Lex Fridman (2:00:15.440)
or moving to Austin.
Michael Malice (2:00:16.720)
They start talking about shark reproduction
Lex Fridman (2:00:18.960)
and neither of these dumbasses knew anything about it.
Michael Malice (2:00:21.600)
I know a lot about it.
Lex Fridman (2:00:22.720)
And they're like, oh, is it like this?
Lex Fridman (2:00:23.920)
Or do the sharks lay eggs?
Lex Fridman (2:00:24.880)
And I'm sitting there, I'm like,
Lex Fridman (2:00:25.760)
if you don't know why you're talking about this, why?
Lex Fridman (2:00:28.880)
Why are you talking?
Lex Fridman (2:00:29.920)
And I could also see why people like these shows
Lex Fridman (2:00:33.040)
because they feel like they're friends of the people.
Michael Malice (2:00:34.480)
Like they're sitting in the room
Lex Fridman (2:00:35.440)
because I felt like it was in that room
Lex Fridman (2:00:36.560)
and I wanted to shake both of them.
Lex Fridman (2:00:38.560)
Yeah, in the room.
Lex Fridman (2:00:39.600)
So no, what about transforming yourself
Lex Fridman (2:00:42.320)
and your resolutions like that?
Michael Malice (2:00:43.680)
Oh, I'm doing a slight bulk now.
Lex Fridman (2:00:46.400)
So I'm almost at my heaviest weight ever,
Lex Fridman (2:00:48.560)
but I couldn't go to the gym this week
Lex Fridman (2:00:50.320)
because I was a little under weather.
Lex Fridman (2:00:52.560)
So that's been a little frustrating, but yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:00:54.960)
So are we going to get some more modeling pics?
Lex Fridman (2:00:59.040)
Is there goals there?
Lex Fridman (2:01:00.240)
So my heaviest, I'm 4.8.
Michael Malice (2:01:03.200)
The heaviest I've ever been was when,
Lex Fridman (2:01:05.600)
and this is when I was like.
Michael Malice (2:01:06.720)
He's exaggerating.
Lex Fridman (2:01:07.760)
He's not that tall.
Michael Malice (2:01:08.800)
That's the metric.
Lex Fridman (2:01:10.800)
Oh, sorry.
Lex Fridman (2:01:11.520)
Are you talking about your height, 4.8?
Lex Fridman (2:01:13.200)
Yeah.
Michael Malice (2:01:14.400)
Barely 4.6.
Lex Fridman (2:01:15.520)
So the heaviest I've ever been when I was really high body fat
Michael Malice (2:01:21.040)
because I couldn't gain weight as a kid.
Lex Fridman (2:01:22.400)
So when I figured out I could actually gain weight,
Michael Malice (2:01:24.080)
I was 164.5.
Lex Fridman (2:01:27.360)
So I want to hit 165 and then take it from there.
Michael Malice (2:01:31.360)
I have a friend who's been helping me,
Lex Fridman (2:01:33.280)
my buddy Trey Goff and this kid Stronger.
Michael Malice (2:01:36.640)
Jake, his username on Instagram is Stronger,
Lex Fridman (2:01:38.720)
both the number five instead of letter S.
Lex Fridman (2:01:42.640)
But he does, it looks like it's Photoshop,
Lex Fridman (2:01:46.640)
like your brain can't process it.
Lex Fridman (2:01:48.000)
You know the human flag?
Lex Fridman (2:01:50.320)
No.
Michael Malice (2:01:50.640)
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:01:51.520)
Sorry.
Michael Malice (2:01:51.920)
He does human flag pushups.
Lex Fridman (2:01:55.280)
Wow.
Lex Fridman (2:01:55.680)
So he is parallel to the ground, right?
Lex Fridman (2:01:58.560)
He's holding himself up like a flag,
Lex Fridman (2:02:00.640)
but he could also do this while,
Lex Fridman (2:02:03.280)
so he's moving parallel to the earth,
Michael Malice (2:02:05.600)
side to side while, it's just crazy.
Lex Fridman (2:02:08.320)
That's really difficult.
Lex Fridman (2:02:09.280)
So you're interested in that kind of stuff?
Lex Fridman (2:02:11.280)
No, but I'm saying he's been helping me out,
Lex Fridman (2:02:13.520)
so the guy knows what he's doing.
Lex Fridman (2:02:14.800)
He's just a really impressive kid.
Michael Malice (2:02:16.160)
I love that kind of stuff, like bodyweight stuff.
Lex Fridman (2:02:18.320)
So my primary mode of working out,
Michael Malice (2:02:22.160)
it's very like the, you ever seen Leon,
Lex Fridman (2:02:24.400)
like the professional with Natalie Portman in that movie?
Michael Malice (2:02:28.960)
I have a pull up thing as you push up some pull ups.
Lex Fridman (2:02:31.840)
It's very like, I'm just missing the milk.
Michael Malice (2:02:34.880)
I like working out at home just like that.
Lex Fridman (2:02:38.400)
The bodyweight stuff, you can go so much with it.
Lex Fridman (2:02:40.480)
And it's super functional for everything else you live in,
Lex Fridman (2:02:43.440)
for life, for living life well.
Michael Malice (2:02:46.640)
On the other hand, I don't care about functionality.
Lex Fridman (2:02:48.400)
The thing that really bothers me,
Michael Malice (2:02:49.680)
like I go, I know Joe's thinking of opening up a gym,
Lex Fridman (2:02:52.640)
like a private gym.
Michael Malice (2:02:54.000)
There's only like one power cage here at the Gold's I go to.
Lex Fridman (2:02:58.320)
I don't know what source that there's only one
Michael Malice (2:02:59.600)
or that sometimes people aren't using it.
Lex Fridman (2:03:01.280)
I'm like, no one's doing deadlifts in here.
Michael Malice (2:03:03.360)
No one, just me, it's Gold's.
Lex Fridman (2:03:06.320)
By the way, I don't want to say where,
Michael Malice (2:03:08.400)
I'll tell you off mic, but there's a few really
Lex Fridman (2:03:12.400)
like ghetto places around Austin
Michael Malice (2:03:14.720)
that are just like these shitty gyms
Lex Fridman (2:03:17.760)
that nobody wants to go to, but they have a rack.
Michael Malice (2:03:19.920)
They have like, if you want to lift heavy,
Lex Fridman (2:03:21.760)
that kind of stuff.
Lex Fridman (2:03:22.240)
But are they 24 hours?
Lex Fridman (2:03:23.360)
That's the thing Gold's?
Michael Malice (2:03:24.720)
Oh, but there are 24 hours in the following way.
Lex Fridman (2:03:28.880)
There's a code.
Michael Malice (2:03:30.160)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (2:03:30.640)
And you just go in.
Michael Malice (2:03:31.840)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (2:03:32.320)
And you turn on the lights.
Michael Malice (2:03:33.760)
That's fine.
Lex Fridman (2:03:34.160)
And then you work out.
Michael Malice (2:03:34.960)
I don't want to meet people.
Lex Fridman (2:03:36.880)
Exactly, well, that's just not true.
Michael Malice (2:03:39.120)
Sometimes there's people and they're great.
Lex Fridman (2:03:40.720)
Yeah, and I've had fans come up to me at Gold's
Lex Fridman (2:03:42.880)
and they've all been cool, except, except.
Lex Fridman (2:03:47.120)
Oh no.
Michael Malice (2:03:47.840)
Except.
Lex Fridman (2:03:49.040)
Except.
Michael Malice (2:03:50.480)
If I have my headphones on and I'm doing deadlifts,
Lex Fridman (2:03:55.360)
I don't need you to come over, tap my ear,
Lex Fridman (2:03:58.720)
and start giving me critiques about my form.
Lex Fridman (2:04:01.840)
It's actually happened?
Michael Malice (2:04:02.960)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (2:04:03.460)
Okay, I'm still angry about it.
Michael Malice (2:04:07.780)
I'm pulling my 150 in peace, thank you.
Lex Fridman (2:04:11.780)
Yeah, people are hilarious.
Michael Malice (2:04:13.060)
I was recently in, had actually the wildest day ever in my life.
Lex Fridman (2:04:19.140)
That was so many things happened in a row.
Lex Fridman (2:04:21.540)
So I went to a wedding in LA.
Lex Fridman (2:04:24.340)
Andrew?
Michael Malice (2:04:25.300)
Andrew Schultz's and with Whitney Cummings and Joe Rogan
Lex Fridman (2:04:31.220)
and a bunch of other fascinating people.
Michael Malice (2:04:33.380)
It's just, speaking of weirdos, there's the comedian,
Lex Fridman (2:04:36.900)
like the reason I find the comedians awesome,
Michael Malice (2:04:39.300)
one, they're authentic, they're just cool people.
Lex Fridman (2:04:41.620)
Yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:04:42.420)
But they're also just weird.
Lex Fridman (2:04:44.020)
You don't become a comedian for not being like fucked up
Michael Malice (2:04:47.300)
in all kinds of different, interesting ways.
Lex Fridman (2:04:49.220)
Anyway, so there's the wedding.
Michael Malice (2:04:51.140)
I'm, you know me, it was only carbs at the wedding.
Lex Fridman (2:04:55.300)
So I didn't eat.
Michael Malice (2:04:56.020)
I didn't eat for a long time.
Lex Fridman (2:04:57.460)
So I was like already fasted 20 hours, 25 hours.
Lex Fridman (2:05:02.420)
So this whole story of everything that happens
Lex Fridman (2:05:06.340)
is Lex like 40 hours fasted with Joe Rogan drinking a lot of whiskey.
Lex Fridman (2:05:13.540)
And so.
Lex Fridman (2:05:14.180)
You were drinking too?
Michael Malice (2:05:15.140)
Oh, heavy.
Lex Fridman (2:05:15.940)
On 40, oh my God, that's crazy.
Lex Fridman (2:05:17.380)
So it is calories.
Lex Fridman (2:05:18.660)
That was my only source of calories is the whiskey.
Lex Fridman (2:05:21.140)
And so I didn't trust myself with carbs when I'm drunk.
Lex Fridman (2:05:24.580)
I just don't enjoy it because I'll forget.
Lex Fridman (2:05:27.380)
And I just enjoy eating like a strict healthy diet when I'm drunk
Lex Fridman (2:05:31.380)
because I'd rather eat more food that's healthy versus not.
Lex Fridman (2:05:36.820)
And so anyway, so then we went to Vegas together
Lex Fridman (2:05:41.060)
and then just kept doing wild thing after another wild thing.
Michael Malice (2:05:46.260)
Rogan opened up for Whitney Cummings.
Lex Fridman (2:05:48.420)
He just like showed up at a random party that he wasn't invited.
Lex Fridman (2:05:50.980)
And he did a thing.
Lex Fridman (2:05:52.340)
He almost started a fight because some guy said stop spreading.
Michael Malice (2:05:56.100)
Yelled at him, said stop spreading misinformation.
Lex Fridman (2:06:00.420)
And then we run into David Goggins out of all.
Michael Malice (2:06:03.700)
This is my first time meeting David.
Lex Fridman (2:06:05.620)
I've talked to David a lot over the phone
Lex Fridman (2:06:08.500)
and we were supposed to do a thing together.
Lex Fridman (2:06:10.020)
And this is me trash out of my mind meeting David for the first time
Michael Malice (2:06:14.260)
with his incredible wife, Rogan's wife was there.
Lex Fridman (2:06:17.300)
By the way, Joe Rogan's wife, David's wife
Michael Malice (2:06:20.260)
made me realize that I really want to be married
Lex Fridman (2:06:24.420)
because they're not, they make their partners better.
Michael Malice (2:06:32.020)
Like that, I was, there's a certain aspect of marriage
Lex Fridman (2:06:37.940)
that I'm afraid of that like your partner takes you away from life.
Michael Malice (2:06:41.460)
You don't get to experience life as much.
Lex Fridman (2:06:44.740)
But this was like, they were enriching them.
Michael Malice (2:06:47.140)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (2:06:47.540)
It's like the world's most powerful support group.
Michael Malice (2:06:50.100)
It was cool.
Lex Fridman (2:06:50.740)
Anyway, so then of course Drunk Lex challenges Goggins to pushups.
Michael Malice (2:06:56.260)
I saw this on Instagram, whatever it was.
Lex Fridman (2:06:57.860)
So we're in the middle of the casino.
Lex Fridman (2:06:59.220)
And you're in your suit.
Lex Fridman (2:07:00.500)
In the suit, in the middle of casino, there's a crowd gathering.
Michael Malice (2:07:04.820)
Like it's Joe Rogan, me and David Goggins
Lex Fridman (2:07:07.860)
and I'm just doing pushups with them.
Lex Fridman (2:07:09.460)
And Rogan is like commentating and yelling and screaming.
Lex Fridman (2:07:12.420)
It was surreal.
Lex Fridman (2:07:13.540)
And just going on to the next thing and next thing and next thing like this
Lex Fridman (2:07:17.380)
and then drove all the way from Vegas back to LA
Michael Malice (2:07:23.220)
with Joe and Whitney and his wife.
Lex Fridman (2:07:25.780)
And it was like, what is this?
Lex Fridman (2:07:28.180)
And all of it is done in 24 hours.
Lex Fridman (2:07:30.740)
The one valuable lesson is don't fast and drink like excessively.
Lex Fridman (2:07:37.060)
So I've learned that because what happens is liquor hits your mind,
Lex Fridman (2:07:43.460)
my mind, sorry, I'll speak about my particular mind.
Michael Malice (2:07:47.380)
Like the intellectual part of my brain got hit really hard, really fast.
Lex Fridman (2:07:51.780)
So I was not able to even more so than usual stitch together sentences.
Michael Malice (2:07:56.020)
I understood everything really well.
Lex Fridman (2:07:58.500)
So like made you an immigrant again.
Lex Fridman (2:08:03.620)
So like meeting David, I want to say so many things.
Lex Fridman (2:08:06.100)
He's so inspiring to me, right?
Lex Fridman (2:08:07.940)
But all I said was like, hello.
Lex Fridman (2:08:09.860)
And I remember like opening my mouth to like try to say more.
Lex Fridman (2:08:16.020)
And I was like, and then I would just close my mouth
Lex Fridman (2:08:19.540)
and not be able to say anymore.
Michael Malice (2:08:20.820)
Yeah, this is one of the reasons I don't drink ever.
Lex Fridman (2:08:23.940)
Yeah, it removes certain barriers.
Michael Malice (2:08:28.340)
Like it allows you to maybe have fun that you wouldn't otherwise.
Lex Fridman (2:08:31.700)
But yeah, definitely for personal values, intellectual eloquence.
Lex Fridman (2:08:37.220)
But I also hate being hungover.
Lex Fridman (2:08:39.140)
The hungover part, yeah.
Michael Malice (2:08:40.180)
That's the worst.
Lex Fridman (2:08:40.820)
Yeah, it's the worst.
Lex Fridman (2:08:41.220)
And you also like, I did this to myself.
Lex Fridman (2:08:43.780)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:08:45.220)
But it also teaches me that this too shall pass
Lex Fridman (2:08:48.580)
because I've been hungover and I've quit drinking so many times in my life
Michael Malice (2:08:52.980)
that it makes you realize that all the unpleasant feelings,
Lex Fridman (2:08:57.060)
all you have to do is just wait it out and it'll be fine.
Michael Malice (2:08:59.540)
It took me a long time to realize that that expression means the other thing.
Lex Fridman (2:09:04.340)
What's the other thing?
Michael Malice (2:09:05.140)
If things are going great, this too shall pass.
Lex Fridman (2:09:07.940)
Yeah.
Michael Malice (2:09:08.500)
Life of suffering.
Lex Fridman (2:09:09.780)
No, I always thought about it as being more like,
Michael Malice (2:09:11.300)
don't worry if things are bad, it'll pass.
Michael Malice (2:09:12.740)
It's also like, if something's going great, it's not going to be this way forever.
Michael Malice (2:09:16.900)
It's like Bukowski said,
Lex Fridman (2:09:18.340)
love is a fog that fades with the first daylight of reality.
Lex Fridman (2:09:24.980)
Do you think love can last?
Lex Fridman (2:09:26.580)
Oh yeah, we're going to win.
Lex Fridman (2:09:29.060)
Who's we?
Lex Fridman (2:09:29.940)
The good guys.
Lex Fridman (2:09:32.580)
Didn't Hitler also think he's the good guys?
Lex Fridman (2:09:34.740)
He's wrong.
Lex Fridman (2:09:36.660)
Because you know why?
Lex Fridman (2:09:37.860)
Why?
Michael Malice (2:09:38.260)
You need to win.
Lex Fridman (2:09:41.460)
So you think it's permanent?
Lex Fridman (2:09:43.060)
So this one time the good guys winning, it'll last.
Lex Fridman (2:09:47.540)
It won't pass.
Michael Malice (2:09:49.700)
Because I think all of it passes, unfortunately.
Lex Fridman (2:09:52.980)
I think we're going to win and win big in the Nazist future.
Lex Fridman (2:10:00.020)
Do you have specific things in mind or no?
Lex Fridman (2:10:02.100)
Or just a sense about human civilization, about society waking up?
Michael Malice (2:10:06.580)
I don't know about waking up, but I think the increased understanding on all sides of the
Michael Malice (2:10:15.540)
political spectrum that corporate America and corporate news outlets are self motivated actors
Lex Fridman (2:10:24.980)
and those motivations are often inimical to what others would regard as desirable
Lex Fridman (2:10:31.460)
is something that I think is happening with increasing frequency.
Lex Fridman (2:10:34.740)
So what do you think about the political landscape in general?
Michael Malice (2:10:38.820)
You had a great conversation with Glenn Beck and he said that he talked to Trump and believes
Michael Malice (2:10:44.340)
that Donald Trump is definitely running in 2024 or very likely running in 2024.
Michael Malice (2:10:50.820)
I think he said he thinks he'll have a good chance of winning or I don't remember that,
Lex Fridman (2:10:56.500)
but the fact that he was running was a surprise to you.
Lex Fridman (2:10:59.620)
Do you think Donald Trump would be running in 2024?
Michael Malice (2:11:03.300)
Given that Glenn Beck has a much better relationship with Trump than I do, to put it mildly,
Michael Malice (2:11:11.060)
if Glenn Beck is certain this is going to happen, I would defer to Glenn Beck's judgment.
Lex Fridman (2:11:16.260)
Do you think he has a chance of winning? Do you think he'll win?
Lex Fridman (2:11:18.660)
Anyone in a binary political system who's the nominee has a chance.
Michael Malice (2:11:22.020)
Like whoever the Republican or Democrat has a chance.
Michael Malice (2:11:24.740)
I think also it's a lot easier to vote for someone that you have voted for in the past.
Lex Fridman (2:11:29.700)
So that's why incumbents have a big advantage. There's not that psychological barrier to cover.
Michael Malice (2:11:33.780)
I think it's also useful for Trump that he's banished from social media because then he doesn't
Michael Malice (2:11:41.060)
have to have the responsibility of governing and all the costs of that, because no matter what
Lex Fridman (2:11:46.180)
decisions you make while governing, some people aren't going to like that.
Lex Fridman (2:11:49.460)
So he gets to kind of be above the radar or below the radar rather to some extent.
Michael Malice (2:11:55.140)
I don't think it's at all a given that he would get the nomination. When I say the good guys are
Michael Malice (2:12:00.900)
going to win, I certainly don't mean Donald Trump. I don't think victory is going to come
Lex Fridman (2:12:06.020)
as a consequence of Washington.
Lex Fridman (2:12:07.620)
You don't want to make America great again?
Lex Fridman (2:12:10.660)
I think America is great. So do you don't...
Michael Malice (2:12:14.180)
This is my failed attempt at humor.
Lex Fridman (2:12:16.100)
One of many. There are also hats that Giuliani and Jim Jeffords wore that said,
Michael Malice (2:12:21.460)
people can look this up. They said, because they were south of the border, make Mexico great again
Lex Fridman (2:12:26.660)
also. Like that to me, it was like, just the syntax there.
Lex Fridman (2:12:38.660)
Okay. So you don't even think you might get the nomination? Who else might?
Lex Fridman (2:12:46.100)
I mean, if you had asked three years out who the nominee in 2020 would be,
Michael Malice (2:12:55.220)
Donald Trump wasn't even, or 2016 rather, wasn't even on the radar screen. So we have a long way
Lex Fridman (2:13:00.740)
to go.
Lex Fridman (2:13:01.220)
Even two years is a long way to go?
Michael Malice (2:13:04.020)
Yeah. Especially because we're coming out of COVID. There might be some governor who becomes
Michael Malice (2:13:09.220)
a rockstar for some reason. Maybe some congressman might have some big moment where they're screaming
Lex Fridman (2:13:15.700)
at somebody and all of a sudden they become a rockstar in the Republican party.
Michael Malice (2:13:19.780)
Or it could be one of the celebrities we don't think about. I mean, Donald Trump is essentially
Michael Malice (2:13:25.940)
not a political figure before he ran. So it could be any of the famous right leaning
Michael Malice (2:13:34.740)
celebrities. I don't even know which way McConaughey leans.
Lex Fridman (2:13:40.420)
No, I think he's a lefty or he's a Democrat, but he's not running.
Lex Fridman (2:13:43.620)
But people like that just might step into the ring.
Michael Malice (2:13:46.740)
Yeah. I don't think they'd have that much of a chance because I think the Republican party,
Michael Malice (2:13:50.180)
there's an asymmetry. They'd be much more skeptical of an actor than the Democrats would be
Michael Malice (2:13:55.460)
because they would regard that actor as coming as a kind of mentoring candidate or whatever.
Michael Malice (2:14:00.660)
Right. But there's other kinds of celebrity, like Jocko could run as a Republican.
Lex Fridman (2:14:04.740)
That's a good example. Yeah.
Michael Malice (2:14:05.860)
That would be interesting. So military person.
Lex Fridman (2:14:08.900)
Right. Yeah. But already, for example, Dr. Oz is thinking of running for,
Michael Malice (2:14:14.100)
is going to run for the Senate in Pennsylvania. And there's already been a lot of research,
Michael Malice (2:14:18.820)
people slamming him on Twitter and social media for past positions he's taken. So
Michael Malice (2:14:26.740)
DeSantis is the figure of the moment, but Scott Walker was the figure of the moment
Lex Fridman (2:14:30.100)
in the 2016 cycle and he didn't even make it to Iowa.
Lex Fridman (2:14:34.740)
Yeah. And I wonder what role does COVID play in all of this?
Lex Fridman (2:14:38.660)
Right.
Michael Malice (2:14:39.140)
In terms of, I'm mostly optimistic and hopeful about the world. Like when I look at the world,
Michael Malice (2:14:47.140)
I'm excited by most things. I've been a little bit or a lot disappointed by the lack of great
Michael Malice (2:14:54.020)
leadership in a time of trouble. Because to me, one of the great things about a difficult time
Michael Malice (2:15:02.500)
is it brings out the great leaders. Again, it's the up and down things. Like you don't want to
Michael Malice (2:15:08.660)
ask for war. You don't want to ask for pandemics, but when they happen, it's a great opportunity
Michael Malice (2:15:16.260)
for the human spirit to flourish. And the fact that it didn't quite in the way that I
Michael Malice (2:15:20.580)
hoped it would is disappointing. I think there's still time too, because people are trying to
Michael Malice (2:15:25.540)
figure out what to do as we emerge from the fog. Yeah. So I'm excited by 2024. Somebody said this
Michael Malice (2:15:35.140)
dark, cynical thing. I hope this is not true, but like that there was some doubt about the results
Michael Malice (2:15:41.460)
of the election in 2020, that in 2024, both sides, like it will just start becoming standard to
Michael Malice (2:15:51.460)
completely reject the results of an election no matter who wins. Well, that's my perspective. I
Michael Malice (2:15:57.620)
don't regard elections as legitimate. And I see what you're saying, not in the terms of that
Michael Malice (2:16:02.340)
basically the process itself was illegitimate. Yes. There's like cheating or something. Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:16:06.180)
But I think that that's pretty much a given. It has been a given. Like I see the Republicans
Michael Malice (2:16:12.100)
often say, oh, they got all these illegals to vote. Or the Democrats will say the voting machines
Michael Malice (2:16:16.900)
were hacked or the media, so on and so forth. Because despite all the people flapping their
Michael Malice (2:16:22.660)
gums about democracy, they only like democracy when it gives them the results that they want.
Lex Fridman (2:16:28.500)
Can I ask you about something else that Glenn Beck said that I thought was really interesting?
Michael Malice (2:16:32.260)
Sure. I agree with him very much on this. And it was refreshing to hear, although he kind of made
Michael Malice (2:16:37.780)
it turn into a point about why Trump is great or whatever. But the point was the following,
Michael Malice (2:16:44.500)
which is he doesn't want to talk to anybody who can't say at least one nice thing about
Lex Fridman (2:16:51.300)
everyone. So like, if you don't like Donald Trump, if you don't like Joe Biden,
Michael Malice (2:16:57.300)
you should still be able to say one nice thing, like legitimate nice, not just like a dismissive
Lex Fridman (2:17:02.340)
nice thing, but legitimately say, what is one nice thing they did or like, or who they are as a person?
Michael Malice (2:17:09.620)
Not like saying Donald Trump is funny sometimes. Like no, like legitimate, where you really mean
Michael Malice (2:17:15.700)
it. And it's been really troubling to me how few people are able to do that about political figures.
Michael Malice (2:17:21.540)
I had a lot of people, I think I tweeted something like this leading up to the election,
Michael Malice (2:17:28.180)
saying like, you should be able to say something nice about both Joe Biden and Donald Trump. And
Michael Malice (2:17:34.260)
I've had old friends, I don't want to say specific, I guess, to call them out, but they, several
Michael Malice (2:17:43.860)
people, and one in particular, like wrote me this long, like several page email.
Lex Fridman (2:17:48.340)
It was Sam?
Lex Fridman (2:17:49.380)
It was Sam Harris.
Lex Fridman (2:17:50.420)
Was it Sam Harris?
Michael Malice (2:17:51.380)
Sam Harris. No. But I have a lot of conversations with Sam Harris now and Joe on both sides. It's
Michael Malice (2:17:59.700)
like the devil and the angel on both my, I don't know which one is which, but they're both devils.
Lex Fridman (2:18:06.180)
Different kinds of devils. Yeah, that's fair.
Lex Fridman (2:18:09.460)
And they said, how could you say, how could you even consider like that there's something
Lex Fridman (2:18:16.020)
positive about Donald Trump?
Michael Malice (2:18:17.620)
Yeah, here's an easy one. He has three wives with three kids with each, but the kids get along.
Michael Malice (2:18:24.100)
I think that's really commendable that Donald Trump Jr. and Eric Trump and Barron can all get
Michael Malice (2:18:29.300)
along with each other, given the circumstances. I think that speaks to something as someone as a
Lex Fridman (2:18:33.460)
father, Ivanka.
Lex Fridman (2:18:35.140)
So on the family level, and I see the same thing with actually, one of the reasons I
Michael Malice (2:18:41.620)
always found Joe Biden fascinating is he's had a lot of really traumatic things happen in his life.
Michael Malice (2:18:47.780)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:18:48.280)
And if I shit my pants in front of the Pope, I'd be traumatized too.
Michael Malice (2:18:57.400)
I'm talking to a master troll about something sensitive and beautiful that is a man suffering
Lex Fridman (2:19:03.160)
with a loss.
Michael Malice (2:19:03.880)
I kind of know what he feels like right now. I'm pretending to the Pope.
Lex Fridman (2:19:08.440)
This chair is ruined. Sorry, Elon. You have to sit in it.
Michael Malice (2:19:14.040)
You have to sit in it.
Lex Fridman (2:19:17.160)
Why is this chair full? I feel like I'm sitting in a swamp.
Michael Malice (2:19:22.200)
Lex, you have stuff to show. Can you afford a good chair? I'll send you one for Tesla.
Lex Fridman (2:19:26.600)
That's a pretty good Elon impression.
Lex Fridman (2:19:30.200)
But yeah, one criticism I told Joe, Rogan, he has trouble finding one positive thing to say about
Michael Malice (2:19:39.560)
Joe Biden, for example, and I just don't like that. I'm a big believer in the shit sandwich
Michael Malice (2:19:49.240)
sticking on topic.
Lex Fridman (2:19:50.120)
Here's an easy one. I think Joe Biden clearly is a very amiable person.
Lex Fridman (2:19:54.440)
What's amiable?
Lex Fridman (2:19:55.400)
Gets along with people. It seems really clear that maybe before president,
Michael Malice (2:19:58.920)
because it's different when you're the president, but that he could call a lot
Michael Malice (2:20:01.160)
of these Republican senators, get them on the phone and have a conversation with them.
Michael Malice (2:20:04.440)
Yeah, and it's not some kind of manipulation.
Lex Fridman (2:20:06.280)
To some extent it is because they're all politicians,
Lex Fridman (2:20:08.280)
but he clearly seemed to be able to get, wasn't like an ideologue.
Michael Malice (2:20:13.720)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but there's, I mean, maybe I'm a sucker for that kind of thing,
Lex Fridman (2:20:18.120)
but the blue collar thing, like riding the train, you know, there's ways to connect with people
Lex Fridman (2:20:23.800)
and not seeing them as equals, no matter where their walks of life are.
Lex Fridman (2:20:28.680)
And I love it when presidents do that to some degree because of the wealth under which Donald
Michael Malice (2:20:36.280)
Trump existed for a lot of his recent life. He's less able to do that quite naturally.
Michael Malice (2:20:43.240)
Maybe sometimes Obama wasn't quite able to do that.
Lex Fridman (2:20:44.920)
That's a good question. Who's more blue collar, Trump or Biden?
Lex Fridman (2:20:48.200)
And you can easily make the case for both, I think.
Michael Malice (2:20:51.080)
You could. No, not the blue collar, but like literally be able to fit in at a bar,
Michael Malice (2:20:56.760)
at a local bar and just like.
Lex Fridman (2:20:58.920)
I can see both of them.
Michael Malice (2:20:59.880)
Yeah, you're right. I could see both of them.
Lex Fridman (2:21:01.560)
Yeah.
Michael Malice (2:21:02.200)
In fact, Obama doesn't quite.
Lex Fridman (2:21:03.880)
No, cause he's got that Ivy league thing.
Michael Malice (2:21:05.240)
Yeah, the Ivy league thing.
Lex Fridman (2:21:06.200)
Yeah, yeah.
Michael Malice (2:21:08.120)
Yeah, you're right.
Lex Fridman (2:21:10.440)
Somehow Donald Trump can too.
Michael Malice (2:21:12.040)
Oh, easily. Yeah, you can see him having a beer with the guys and yelling at the screen.
Lex Fridman (2:21:15.000)
This is bullshit. Change the channel.
Michael Malice (2:21:18.120)
Yeah. I mean, I hope people do that. I think that's one of the most unpleasant things to me
Michael Malice (2:21:23.560)
is they're not able to empathize with the fact that half the country voted for another person.
Michael Malice (2:21:30.840)
Well, it's also then it's just a bad strategy.
Michael Malice (2:21:32.920)
If you can't figure out why half the country is voting for someone you guard as like a demon,
Lex Fridman (2:21:37.720)
well then how are you going to supposed to fight this demon?
Lex Fridman (2:21:39.960)
Like, you know, when I did your reader, the North Korea book,
Lex Fridman (2:21:42.680)
it's like, don't you want to understand how these people get to where they got?
Lex Fridman (2:21:48.360)
It's, no one's saying that he's a good person,
Lex Fridman (2:21:50.120)
but like there's a logic to their, there's a method to their madness.
Lex Fridman (2:21:53.720)
You've talked about national divorce a few times.
Michael Malice (2:21:56.200)
I've seen a couple of videos recently where you're responding to articles.
Michael Malice (2:22:00.120)
It's, it's kind of cool. Can you, can you talk about this idea of national divorce
Lex Fridman (2:22:07.240)
and as it stands today, arguing for it, maybe, and if you could,
Michael Malice (2:22:12.840)
just out of curious in the context of those videos, if you can steal men and argument against.
Lex Fridman (2:22:18.440)
So I was the first one to kind of bring this issue back into the national conversation.
Michael Malice (2:22:24.600)
I wrote a piece for Observer in 2016. Then Jesse Kelly had a piece a few months after that.
Michael Malice (2:22:29.720)
David Boyd just recently did a piece on his stuff stack earlier this year.
Lex Fridman (2:22:34.440)
And it's become enough of a mainstreamed idea that paleontology outlets like the National Review
Michael Malice (2:22:41.080)
have felt the need to respond to them. So the point being that America has had at least two
Michael Malice (2:22:45.960)
cultures since the beginning and that there's absolutely no reason. And these cultures in
Michael Malice (2:22:50.680)
recent years, and this was in 2016, not mentioned 2021, have been increasingly antagonistic toward
Michael Malice (2:22:55.960)
one another and have even lost the ability to communicate. They're using language in different
Michael Malice (2:23:01.080)
ways and that there's no reason for this to continue any further. And, you know, just,
Michael Malice (2:23:08.360)
you live your life, we'll live ours and, you know, goodbye and good luck. There's no harm,
Michael Malice (2:23:13.640)
no ill will. Now there's lots of arguments against them. Some of those are, are completely,
Michael Malice (2:23:20.120)
I think, stupid. The stupidest one is, well, that's what China wants. Okay. Well, I mean,
Michael Malice (2:23:26.200)
I'm not going to live my life saying I'm just going to do the opposite of whatever China wants.
Michael Malice (2:23:30.920)
That's not logic. That's not a good pathway. Now, I'm not saying they're right or wrong,
Lex Fridman (2:23:35.400)
but that's not a reason one way or another. Yeah. You bring up China or Russia, you know,
Michael Malice (2:23:39.400)
that's exactly what China or Russia want. But sort of the strong way to phrase that is
Michael Malice (2:23:45.960)
is it weakens America. Like not just the one America, but like both sides in the divorce
Michael Malice (2:23:58.920)
will be much weaker than they individually were together. So in that sense, not that you have to
Michael Malice (2:24:06.120)
care about what China thinks, but like it's a step, it's a big step backwards. Yes. I think
Michael Malice (2:24:11.560)
in the short term, it is absolutely a big step backwards in terms of power. There's no question
Michael Malice (2:24:15.640)
that when you're trying to reestablish a society, there's going to be a transition period. That
Michael Malice (2:24:20.200)
transition period is going to be costly. Each side starts wondering, wait a minute, why are we still
Michael Malice (2:24:24.760)
doing this? We don't have to anymore. We're not living with them, so on and so forth. So that's
Michael Malice (2:24:27.960)
going to be a concern. I don't think that the whole point of America or even a large or primary
Michael Malice (2:24:35.800)
point of America is to be a bulwark against Chinese power. And there's going to be very few
Michael Malice (2:24:40.280)
people on earth, given my work, who have as much informed hatred and contempt for the Chinese
Michael Malice (2:24:47.320)
government as I do. Certainly, next to the North Korean people, maybe the people from Eritrea,
Michael Malice (2:24:55.160)
there's few populations who I was worried about as the people under the rule of the Red Chinese.
Michael Malice (2:25:00.520)
My steel man argument is there's no way this is going to be peaceful because the lines don't
Michael Malice (2:25:05.320)
separate out well. So all you're doing is basically just replicating the problem because the disparity
Michael Malice (2:25:11.240)
isn't between during the Civil War, North and South, it's between New York City and upstate
Michael Malice (2:25:16.120)
New York or between Chicago, downstate Chicago. Once you get outside of LA and Sacramento,
Michael Malice (2:25:22.760)
California in many ways is like Kentucky, so it doesn't make sense. So that's a strong argument.
Michael Malice (2:25:27.800)
I mean, you've talked about that this process will be painful. It can be painful. And we're
Michael Malice (2:25:32.200)
not just talking about violence. It could be just, even the Civil War, you could divide it
Michael Malice (2:25:37.560)
somewhat cleanly. Obviously, the kind of national divorce you might be suggesting is that people are
Michael Malice (2:25:44.280)
living amongst each other. So you have to literally move. It's complicated.
Michael Malice (2:25:47.800)
Right. So that is a very strong argument. I think a cogent argument against it. Two is it's not just China,
Michael Malice (2:25:55.560)
it's that there's a lot of bad actors in the world who maybe aren't, like China certainly wants to carry
Michael Malice (2:26:01.640)
itself and have an appearance at least on the world stage as civilized and a leader. There's lots of
Michael Malice (2:26:07.880)
smaller countries who without us are going to feel comfortable doing some very nefarious things.
Lex Fridman (2:26:14.200)
And they're not going to be scared of us anymore. And so that would be a bigger concern in many
Michael Malice (2:26:18.440)
regards than China. So I think that's a reasonable one. It could be that both sides, if this happens,
Michael Malice (2:26:25.000)
are going to, instead of work toward better, the things that make each side bad would get worse.
Michael Malice (2:26:30.280)
Yeah. And that's having those pushed towards the malevolent extremes is, I think, a very legitimate
Michael Malice (2:26:35.560)
criticism and a concern. I mean, as you suggested, there's no guarantee that won't happen.
Michael Malice (2:26:40.520)
Correct at all. Also, there's a, I think, a reasonable argument to make. So those are the
Lex Fridman (2:27:07.400)
biggest ones, I would say.
Lex Fridman (2:27:09.320)
And still, what is the case for national divorce and along which lines? So like in making the case
Michael Malice (2:27:19.240)
for national divorce, if it is desired, based on which kind of ideas do you think it should be
Lex Fridman (2:27:26.120)
carried through?
Michael Malice (2:27:26.840)
Honestly, I don't know that it has to be idea based. Like for example, when Czechoslovakia
Michael Malice (2:27:31.320)
broke up, when Norway and Sweden broke up, it wasn't really ideological. It was more cultural. So
Michael Malice (2:27:41.000)
I always say divorce into two, but it would probably make more sense if it was like five,
Michael Malice (2:27:46.200)
because the Northeast, certainly New England, has their own culture. The West Coast has their own
Michael Malice (2:27:51.880)
kind of culture. I don't know. The thing is, in any kind of persuasion technique, right? Like once
Michael Malice (2:27:59.560)
people start, there's a difference between convincing someone they want to buy a car
Lex Fridman (2:28:05.000)
and what features you want. So if you're at the point where we're arguing about the features,
Michael Malice (2:28:08.200)
then my work here is done. Do you know what I mean? Like I don't have a dog in the fight
Michael Malice (2:28:11.640)
in terms of what it's going to look like. I just want to get to the point where you're at least
Michael Malice (2:28:14.440)
considering seriously the idea of breaking up America. And I would encourage people to go look
Lex Fridman (2:28:19.160)
at my article to see, which I'm sure the arguments still hold five years later.
Lex Fridman (2:28:24.200)
Do you have a kind of vision of which of the two or which of the five, like do you actually have
Michael Malice (2:28:31.400)
specific cultures or ideas? I'll tell you exactly. If I told you, and everyone listening, in 2014,
Lex Fridman (2:28:40.920)
we weren't that long ago, it was not long ago, which of these two things is more likely to happen?
Michael Malice (2:28:46.040)
2014. Texas secedes or declares secession from America or Donald Trump gets elected president.
Michael Malice (2:28:53.400)
Everyone's voting for Texas. Like in terms of prediction, which is more likely. So we had this
Michael Malice (2:28:58.680)
one. So it's not at all unlikely we're going to have this one. I don't know if that logic carries
Michael Malice (2:29:02.840)
through. You can't just say, here's an unlikely thing that happened, therefore anything can happen.
Lex Fridman (2:29:09.240)
I just said, you just earlier said anything could happen this episode, didn't you?
Michael Malice (2:29:12.440)
Life is suffering. I wasn't listening to half the things you're saying.
Lex Fridman (2:29:15.480)
You said it.
Michael Malice (2:29:16.520)
I said it.
Lex Fridman (2:29:17.160)
Yes, you said anything could happen.
Michael Malice (2:29:18.360)
I'm definitely not here. I'm like you with podcasts. I do a podcast, but I don't listen to
Michael Malice (2:29:22.520)
it. That's why I'm talking. Okay. So yeah, it can happen. But in which, I guess I'm asking,
Lex Fridman (2:29:29.800)
would you stay in Texas?
Lex Fridman (2:29:30.840)
A hundred percent. And I'd run for office probably. It'd be fun.
Michael Malice (2:29:35.400)
I'm going to be the first president of Texas.
Michael Malice (2:29:37.880)
I attended a debate between Yaron Brooks and Yoram Hazony. I don't know if you know who that is.
Michael Malice (2:29:45.560)
The nationalist guy.
Lex Fridman (2:29:46.360)
The nationalist, yeah. He wrote a book called The Virtue of Nationalism.
Michael Malice (2:29:49.000)
Yeah, I read that book.
Lex Fridman (2:29:50.040)
And then I actually did a podcast with him. They did a debate.
Lex Fridman (2:29:53.800)
Oh, they both run here?
Lex Fridman (2:29:54.840)
Mm hmm.
Michael Malice (2:29:55.320)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (2:29:55.880)
It was quite interesting. And I tried to wear my Michael Malice hat. So the...
Michael Malice (2:30:01.160)
You're wearing it now. You borrowed that from me.
Michael Malice (2:30:04.920)
Yeah. It's funny because the metaphor applies across all of these levels of collectivism.
Lex Fridman (2:30:14.120)
So he was arguing for the power of nation. So he would be arguing against national divorce.
Lex Fridman (2:30:20.440)
But he was also arguing for marriage, the power of actual marriage between individuals.
Michael Malice (2:30:28.360)
I think he's a conservative. What I really like about him is there's a clear philosophy
Michael Malice (2:30:34.040)
of conservatism that he expresses. And I think a lot of people get behind that philosophy.
Michael Malice (2:30:40.280)
Because to me conservatism and liberalism often is very kind of used loosely.
Lex Fridman (2:30:46.440)
Yes.
Michael Malice (2:30:46.840)
He has a clear philosophy that he's expressing there and is grounded in tradition.
Michael Malice (2:30:51.400)
He has a lot of value in tradition. And so it's the thing you said about America.
Michael Malice (2:30:57.160)
Like one of the arguments against national divorce is like, listen, we've been at it for a while.
Lex Fridman (2:31:04.840)
Like there is a lot of value in the fact that we've been at it for a while.
Michael Malice (2:31:08.920)
Don't just throw it all away all the time. So he says like philosophically, he seems
Lex Fridman (2:31:13.320)
in a lot of walks of life, revolution should be avoided as much as possible.
Michael Malice (2:31:20.040)
I agree.
Lex Fridman (2:31:21.000)
And so it's kind of interesting. So he makes the case that there's something fundamentally
Michael Malice (2:31:26.520)
powerful about the nation. That it's a nice way to group a culture.
Lex Fridman (2:31:33.960)
And so the national divorce, I guess, goes against that. I mean, do you find some aspect
Lex Fridman (2:31:39.880)
of the virtue of nationalism, as you will put it, powerful?
Lex Fridman (2:31:44.840)
Well, powerful in a good sense.
Michael Malice (2:31:47.720)
In a good sense. So sorry, yeah, in a good sense, like it brings out the best in humans.
Michael Malice (2:31:51.960)
I don't know about the best, but it certainly brings out good things. I have that line I
Michael Malice (2:31:55.080)
always say about I love my country. I hate the government because I love my country.
Lex Fridman (2:31:58.360)
Yeah. So there is a love of country.
Michael Malice (2:32:00.840)
I think it's, but I don't know that that's the, I think it's also the case because the
Michael Malice (2:32:06.040)
country happens to be America. Like, I don't know if I was living in, you know, whatever,
Michael Malice (2:32:11.080)
I don't want to insult someone's country. Canada, yeah. If I was living in Canada, I
Lex Fridman (2:32:15.960)
don't know that it'd be the Ochoa Patriot.
Michael Malice (2:32:17.080)
This is a guy who calls basically every other country shithole country.
Michael Malice (2:32:20.360)
Yeah, that's true. That's the fact. Yeah. So it's either, you're either, there's two
Michael Malice (2:32:25.240)
types of countries, Texas or shitholes.
Michael Malice (2:32:27.160)
Oh, wow. You went full Texas. So you're okay burning the Northeast to the ground at this
Michael Malice (2:32:32.520)
point.
Michael Malice (2:32:33.560)
Okay. I'm hoping for it. What they've done to New York City, I will never forgive these
Michael Malice (2:32:39.080)
people. And I hope that they suffer enormously consequences for what they've done to New
Michael Malice (2:32:45.240)
York. It's unconscionable, the assault that they've done and no remorse over how many
Michael Malice (2:32:52.520)
creative outlets that they've destroyed.
Lex Fridman (2:32:57.320)
Yeah, it's the cultural hub, cultural center of the world.
Michael Malice (2:33:01.160)
New York was the, this was the place where you go to put up your shingle and move the
Michael Malice (2:33:07.080)
needle and make things happen. And I would understand if it was like, okay, we got to
Michael Malice (2:33:12.440)
suffer through this for a year, but we're going to make sure all these businesses have
Michael Malice (2:33:16.600)
a kind of safety net to make sure that they kind of get through and survive this, which
Michael Malice (2:33:21.720)
they did to the banks in 2008, for example. And I'm saying this as an anarchist and there
Michael Malice (2:33:26.200)
was none of that. So I burn it down and salt the earth. It's because it's like watching
Michael Malice (2:33:33.320)
like a zombie. It's unnatural. It's an abomination.
Lex Fridman (2:33:37.880)
So I mean, sort of on the on the white pill side of things, I don't know about you, maybe
Michael Malice (2:33:42.840)
I have a sense that both Silicon Valley that for me personally, maybe I have the same intensity
Michael Malice (2:33:48.680)
of feelings you do about New York. It's just disappointing to see it be consumed with cynicism
Lex Fridman (2:33:56.040)
and a lot of other paralyzing forces. But I still have hope for that place. I think
Michael Malice (2:34:02.120)
maybe it's the Yoram kind of tradition hope that through momentum, the strong reemerges.
Lex Fridman (2:34:11.720)
So like I have hope for New York. I think New York will continue like not maybe on the
Michael Malice (2:34:18.440)
scale of years, but a scale of decades. It'll be ups and downs where it reemerges as a cultural
Michael Malice (2:34:24.680)
center. I just can't imagine a place like New York is like Paris. There's going to be
Lex Fridman (2:34:30.280)
long stretches of time where it leads the world.
Michael Malice (2:34:34.280)
Paris has not been a cultural hub for a very long time.
Lex Fridman (2:34:36.600)
Yeah.
Michael Malice (2:34:36.920)
You know, the days of Matisse and Picasso and Gertrude Stein are long gone.
Lex Fridman (2:34:44.680)
It still is a hub.
Michael Malice (2:34:46.280)
Even London isn't London.
Lex Fridman (2:34:47.960)
Yeah.
Michael Malice (2:34:48.200)
You know, you're not the...
Lex Fridman (2:34:50.120)
But what is then? London is still London. Paris is still Paris. It's just not the Paris of
Michael Malice (2:34:54.680)
old. It's not London of old. London is still a place. It's a tech hub. It's a fashion hub.
Lex Fridman (2:35:01.560)
It's a music hub. I mean, it's still a pretty strong hub.
Michael Malice (2:35:04.440)
Yeah, but not like during the Beatles era or during the Sex Pistols era.
Lex Fridman (2:35:09.240)
But it could be just us romanticizing the past. Because what is a hub then?
Michael Malice (2:35:13.720)
No, it's not romanticizing the past because a hub is the place where everyone on earth
Michael Malice (2:35:19.800)
or our eyes are on you. So in the late 60s, in the mid 60s, you see the British Invasion,
Michael Malice (2:35:25.320)
you know, the Kinks and all these other bands coming out of Great Britain, like they were
Lex Fridman (2:35:29.800)
the innovators. This was the place that was happening.
Michael Malice (2:35:36.280)
In that sense, like...
Lex Fridman (2:35:37.080)
And Brooklyn, you know, 15 years ago.
Lex Fridman (2:35:41.400)
But I guess maybe in that sense, in the 21st century, geographical hubs are becoming a
Michael Malice (2:35:47.400)
thing of the past. So like, you can be a hub in the digital space now. So like it's not,
Michael Malice (2:35:53.160)
maybe you'll never have...
Michael Malice (2:35:54.280)
I don't think... I think there will always be... I mean, what I'm saying, digital space
Michael Malice (2:35:59.480)
makes it easier for, let's suppose, Cleveland to be a hub. Because all you need is like
Michael Malice (2:36:03.880)
10 people who happen to live in Cleveland or, you know, Akron was a hub, a minor hub.
Michael Malice (2:36:07.720)
All it takes is 10 to 50 people to create a... Yeah, and maybe even less. Maybe it's
Lex Fridman (2:36:12.520)
just two or three or four people.
Michael Malice (2:36:15.160)
I mean, there's been no shortage of articles talking about Austin and what's happening
Michael Malice (2:36:19.160)
here. And I know some of Joe's plans and you and I and Blair and all these other people
Michael Malice (2:36:24.840)
that we know. My buddy Andrew Heaton moved here. He's just one of the best people I know.
Lex Fridman (2:36:28.520)
It's just, I'm really, really excited.
Lex Fridman (2:36:30.920)
Can I ask you some weird thing about friendship?
Lex Fridman (2:36:33.240)
Of course.
Michael Malice (2:36:34.040)
Because you mentioned Sam, he's Mr. Harris to you.
Michael Malice (2:36:37.880)
Didn't that bother you how he went after Joe? He's like, oh, in case you guys have brain
Michael Malice (2:36:44.520)
damage from watching Rogan's last episode, like watch, here's the answer. And it's just
Lex Fridman (2:36:48.360)
like... Oh, like digs like that.
Michael Malice (2:36:49.800)
Yeah, yeah. I didn't like that.
Lex Fridman (2:36:51.240)
I didn't like that either. I think Sam doesn't like it either about himself.
Michael Malice (2:36:55.080)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (2:36:56.440)
He regrets those things.
Michael Malice (2:36:57.640)
Because it's very easy to say from his perspective, look, this isn't the full side. Rogan didn't
Michael Malice (2:37:04.120)
show you the full side of the story. Here's the other side of the story. Please watch
Michael Malice (2:37:07.720)
this and be informed. That's a very reasonable thing to say.
Michael Malice (2:37:10.920)
Yeah, I don't quite understand this. So they do this about each other now. I'll put three
Michael Malice (2:37:16.520)
people on the table, which is Joe Rogan, Sam Harris, and Brett Weinstein. And they have
Michael Malice (2:37:22.600)
a way of talking like the other person is creating a lot of harm. Like, publicly we'll
Michael Malice (2:37:28.680)
say things like that. And I understand there's emotion in it. But like, these are human beings
Lex Fridman (2:37:37.320)
that are friends of yours.
Lex Fridman (2:37:39.480)
But I'll go the other way. Let's suppose it is true that Joe's doing a lot of harm,
Michael Malice (2:37:43.160)
spreading misinformation. Being sarcastic isn't going to be persuasive. Whereas if you're
Michael Malice (2:37:49.000)
like, he's wrong, here's the facts, or be informed. To me, but then I'm not Sam Harris.
Michael Malice (2:37:55.480)
He's got a bigger audience than me, so maybe he's the one who's right and I'm wrong.
Michael Malice (2:37:58.200)
No, he's just human.
Lex Fridman (2:38:00.520)
Okay, well, I can't relate.
Michael Malice (2:38:02.280)
Well, have you seen your Twitter lately? I mean, you have a lot of fun on Twitter. I
Lex Fridman (2:38:07.400)
feel like Twitter lets...
Michael Malice (2:38:08.840)
I've never done that with someone I'm friends with. I never would.
Lex Fridman (2:38:13.640)
Okay, let's put that on record.
Michael Malice (2:38:15.000)
It is on record.
Lex Fridman (2:38:16.040)
Because if there's an issue with you, I'm getting you on the phone.
Michael Malice (2:38:19.000)
Yeah. Good.
Michael Malice (2:38:21.080)
Because then I'm not backing you into a corner publicly. It doesn't make any sense strategically.
Michael Malice (2:38:25.080)
Yeah, and actually, Brett Weinstein tweeted something sort of criticizing something, I
Lex Fridman (2:38:32.200)
did already forgot what. But he texted me first saying like, is it okay if I tweet this?
Michael Malice (2:38:36.600)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:38:37.080)
And I said, yep. I was excited.
Michael Malice (2:38:41.400)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:38:42.200)
But I think there's some level of just be compassionate privately and be compassionate
Michael Malice (2:38:47.160)
publicly.
Lex Fridman (2:38:48.120)
Or be civil.
Michael Malice (2:38:50.280)
Civil. For some reason, I don't like the word civility because it's polite.
Lex Fridman (2:38:56.280)
Or be cordial, is that better?
Michael Malice (2:39:00.360)
No, what I mean is like...
Lex Fridman (2:39:02.760)
It seems phony to you?
Michael Malice (2:39:03.720)
It seems phony. Like you should radiate love in whatever way. So even if you're rough with
Michael Malice (2:39:08.360)
the other person, you should still show like respect and love for that person. And that
Michael Malice (2:39:14.200)
gets back to the Russian rooms where they're yelling at each other, but they're still loving
Michael Malice (2:39:17.480)
underneath it. I mean, the question I want to ask for you is, I think you and I have
Michael Malice (2:39:24.600)
a different view on some things.
Lex Fridman (2:39:27.080)
Okay.
Michael Malice (2:39:27.320)
We have a different approach to things just on the surface level, but also a different
Michael Malice (2:39:31.560)
view on some things. I have a lot of hope for institutions. So maybe it's a gut instinct.
Michael Malice (2:39:38.840)
Like your gut instinct is like centers of power are like, burn them down first and then
Lex Fridman (2:39:45.000)
let's figure it out.
Michael Malice (2:39:46.280)
Sure.
Lex Fridman (2:39:46.680)
Or maybe that's a funny, rough way of saying it.
Michael Malice (2:39:48.760)
No, I think that's about right.
Lex Fridman (2:39:50.040)
And then for me, it's like, no, let's understand the institution and slowly,
Michael Malice (2:39:55.080)
revolutions from within versus revolutions from without. But like we can have those disagreements
Lex Fridman (2:40:02.280)
and there may be times when those disagreements will be, I could see in the future, I could
Michael Malice (2:40:06.760)
see I'll be attacked by my friend Michael Malice, which I very look forward to it. No,
Michael Malice (2:40:12.760)
not attacked, but you know what I mean, on the surface level, in the idea space. Anyway,
Michael Malice (2:40:16.840)
you're shaking your head now, you won't. I guess maybe this also goes to Sam Harrison.
Michael Malice (2:40:23.560)
Joe Rogan, I would love to be able to disagree, disagree in big ways on important things and
Michael Malice (2:40:30.200)
still be close friends. And I don't understand why those are, should be contradictions.
Lex Fridman (2:40:35.320)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:40:35.720)
And that's the tension. That's been the most heartbreaking thing to me about Sam and
Michael Malice (2:40:41.560)
Brett and Joe. In the case of Brett, it's me, I don't know Brett. So I'm just like
Michael Malice (2:40:46.760)
looking as somebody who just enjoys having these voices out there. And it seems like
Michael Malice (2:40:51.080)
COVID just brought out the worst in some, many folks. And it just feels like it's so
Michael Malice (2:40:57.320)
sad to me to see their friendship somewhat deteriorating. Or maybe I'm just being in a...
Lex Fridman (2:41:04.360)
No, it seems clear, it's deteriorated enormously.
Michael Malice (2:41:07.080)
It's sad that that's the case.
Michael Malice (2:41:09.720)
Yeah, so my, like I've had people come at me because I'm friends with you. And they
Michael Malice (2:41:14.280)
were like, Oh, Lex authored some paper about masks. I don't even know what the hell they're
Michael Malice (2:41:17.400)
referring to. I don't care. I always say and mean, I don't care whether someone agrees
Michael Malice (2:41:23.880)
with me. I care how they treat me. And it goes the other way. Cause I'll have a lot
Michael Malice (2:41:27.800)
of people on Twitter who are like, Oh, I'm on your team and blah, blah, blah. I'm like,
Michael Malice (2:41:30.840)
I don't know you. You're not my team. And just because you happen to agree with me,
Michael Malice (2:41:34.200)
it's of no value to me. Like I don't know you and I'm interested in knowing you. Many
Michael Malice (2:41:39.000)
of my friends, I don't know what their politics are. I don't care. Like I care how we hang
Michael Malice (2:41:43.480)
out. We have a good time. We watch dumb movies, watch YouTube, go to the store, whatever. I
Michael Malice (2:41:47.880)
don't know what your politics are. I don't care what your politics are. Chris Williamson,
Michael Malice (2:41:52.600)
who, you know, he's just here. He's going to be moving to Austin. I learned what his
Michael Malice (2:41:56.360)
politics are in the last, we've been, we chat like almost every day because he took the
Michael Malice (2:41:59.960)
world's smallest political quiz. And he figured out what his answers were. I had no idea where
Michael Malice (2:42:03.960)
he's communist. He said, well, obviously. Yeah. Yeah. Marxist. Yeah. Let's be honest.
Michael Malice (2:42:11.000)
Yeah. So like stuff like that, like it never, and people, I think because politics is often
Lex Fridman (2:42:19.480)
so tribal, especially now, they'll be like, oh, I could never be friends with someone
Michael Malice (2:42:24.440)
who voted for X. Really? What if they're like grandma worked in that campaign? What if,
Michael Malice (2:42:28.600)
you know, it's this, you can't think of one steel man argument why this would happen,
Lex Fridman (2:42:33.880)
but if they just want to spite their boss. So I don't like that approach at all. It makes
Michael Malice (2:42:39.720)
no sense to me. You could still have debates. I mean, like, I would still like to have those
Michael Malice (2:42:45.720)
conversations and still have disagreements. Like, I disagree with Joe on COVID a lot on
Michael Malice (2:42:52.520)
a bunch of different things. Very kind of, but it's never like, it's not tense at all.
Michael Malice (2:42:58.200)
It's just, it's, it doesn't have that arrogance that a lot of COVID conversations seems to have,
Michael Malice (2:43:05.640)
like talking down to people from both directions. So I would love to have those because I love the
Michael Malice (2:43:12.440)
debate. I love debates. It takes a lot to get me triggered. And when the Babylon Bee were
Michael Malice (2:43:17.720)
interviewing Elon and he had this thing, he goes, well, I don't know anyone who wants to,
Michael Malice (2:43:22.600)
you know, abolish the FDA and the FAA. And I'm standing there and I'm shaking. And the guys look
Michael Malice (2:43:28.680)
at me and they're like, oh, we actually have an anarchist here. And the example he used was,
Michael Malice (2:43:33.480)
you know, look, if playing football, you're going to have a referee there and you want the referee,
Michael Malice (2:43:37.880)
you know, you don't want, but the referee started playing the game is such a good thing. And I'm
Michael Malice (2:43:42.440)
sitting there, I'm like, the referee doesn't work for the state. The referee is a private individual
Michael Malice (2:43:47.720)
working for this organization. And there's no reason at all that food quality, which is something
Michael Malice (2:43:54.360)
crucially important has to be, or can only be delivered through the state and a government
Michael Malice (2:43:58.520)
monopoly. That's actually really interesting. Just the link on that. Just a little bit with
Michael Malice (2:44:06.040)
the vaccine and stuff like that, with the antiviral drugs, the FDA. So like, are you
Michael Malice (2:44:11.000)
comfortable? Like who should be the referee? Right. Do you have an idea? Like what's the best
Michael Malice (2:44:17.320)
referee for the vaccine? It's just the market. Just let people decide. This is tricky because
Michael Malice (2:44:22.920)
the thing that I have not been following COVID as closely as Joe and Sam, as Mr. Harris, excuse me,
Lex Fridman (2:44:29.720)
and Mr. Musk. The point is, when anything like this is developing, there's going to be a lot of
Michael Malice (2:44:36.200)
misinformation out there, even from the scientists, because it's a dynamic process. They don't know
Lex Fridman (2:44:41.480)
what they're dealing with. A lot of it has to be speculative. They don't know long term effects,
Michael Malice (2:44:45.000)
because it hasn't been around for a long time. So I think it is very dangerous,
Michael Malice (2:44:52.120)
when Joe was mocked for taking a laundry list of things under his doctor's advice and they kind of
Michael Malice (2:45:00.040)
latched onto the ivermectin. And then they specifically said it was horse paste, although
Michael Malice (2:45:04.200)
it's veterinary medicines. Why didn't they say dog paste or cat paste? It's like, well, he's not dead.
Lex Fridman (2:45:10.200)
And he's also taking drugs which are used in other circumstances. The very least, maybe they're
Michael Malice (2:45:16.440)
pointless, but if the drug is being allowed for pharmaceutical reasons, the odds are quite low
Michael Malice (2:45:22.280)
that they're going to have deleterious side effects in general. So I think this kind of insistence
Michael Malice (2:45:30.200)
that there has to be one, a officially approved outcome that we're all doing, that is kind of
Michael Malice (2:45:38.120)
dangerous thinking in general. By the way, I don't know if you saw, I got a chance to talk to the
Michael Malice (2:45:43.240)
Pfizer CEO, and I had helped collecting questions. I got a lot of questions and people put at the top
Michael Malice (2:45:50.680)
a question for Michael Malice. Oh really? No, the ask him what he likes best about me. Oh, what does
Michael Malice (2:45:59.880)
he like best? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I actually had that on my list of questions I was going to ask him,
Lex Fridman (2:46:03.400)
and my plan was I'll ask him, Michael Malice wants to know what you like best about him,
Lex Fridman (2:46:09.000)
and then my guess was he'd be like, who? And I'd be like, exactly, and then go on to the next.
Lex Fridman (2:46:14.600)
But I thought it was such a tense conversation that I thought there would be no...
Michael Malice (2:46:20.120)
Of course, room for levity. The question I would ask him is can you acknowledge that there is an
Michael Malice (2:46:25.320)
enormous incentive for your company to force everyone in America or everyone on earth to be
Michael Malice (2:46:32.760)
a consumer of your product? Yeah. That's my question. So I danced around that question
Michael Malice (2:46:37.400)
quite a lot. I phrase it differently, which is a conflict of interest and attention between making
Michael Malice (2:46:44.760)
a lot of money and actually helping people. I mean, I've asked a lot of really heavy questions
Michael Malice (2:46:52.120)
in that, and a lot of people wrote to me with support saying that was a really great conversation,
Lex Fridman (2:47:00.280)
and a lot of people wrote saying that, I mean, saying that it was just too soft.
Lex Fridman (2:47:08.600)
And I don't know, I think about that a lot. Like, how do you have that conversation? I don't think
Michael Malice (2:47:14.840)
it was too soft. And actually, just for the record, I want to say that they didn't see any of the
Michael Malice (2:47:21.400)
questions I'm asking. They didn't see the final interview. I can ask anything I want.
Lex Fridman (2:47:27.160)
And so any questions that I asked and failed to ask is my own shortcomings. Also, not being a coward,
Michael Malice (2:47:41.400)
I was afraid of nothing. Like, what do I have to gain or lose exactly? Well, you have something to
Michael Malice (2:47:46.920)
lose because if you're, I do, I always do softballs. Because if I'm going to make it difficult for
Michael Malice (2:47:53.960)
someone to come to my show, a lot of people will be disincentivized to do the show. Because like,
Michael Malice (2:47:58.600)
I don't need this. I see. Oh, yeah, I wasn't thinking like that. But I was, I don't like to,
Lex Fridman (2:48:02.680)
what I think some fraction of folks wanted me to do is to yell at a person, like, criticize them,
Michael Malice (2:48:10.840)
not even ask questions, essentially. Yeah, yeah, how dare you? Yeah, but to me, my goal,
Michael Malice (2:48:16.680)
my hope is with these conversations is not just to do how great you are and all that kind of stuff,
Michael Malice (2:48:21.800)
is to bring out some deeper truth. The beautiful things is when you can together realize some
Michael Malice (2:48:28.440)
truth, like you mentioned, that the incentive for everyone to take the vaccine is obviously high
Michael Malice (2:48:37.400)
for the maker of a vaccine. And for them to arrive at that truth together, that is a really difficult
Michael Malice (2:48:45.400)
truth to operate under. Like, for example, I had a whole exchange with him about,
Michael Malice (2:48:52.920)
this is Jordan Peterson asked this question, I use that as a kind of springboard, which is the
Michael Malice (2:48:59.400)
kind of open doors between the FDA, the CDC and Pfizer. Right, like some people work at Pfizer
Lex Fridman (2:49:05.880)
and then go to work at the FDA and then vice versa. And I brought up the idea of, like,
Michael Malice (2:49:11.960)
this is my safe space, maybe yours too, just going back to the Soviet Union to look at the lessons of
Michael Malice (2:49:19.800)
human nature and corruption. I said, like, there's two things, this looks bad, and two,
Michael Malice (2:49:27.800)
this naturally leads to corruption. And I pushed this with several questions, but polite and
Michael Malice (2:49:33.080)
respectful. And he ultimately said, you know, there's rules. We have to follow the rules.
Michael Malice (2:49:39.240)
There's very strict rules about this, and we have to follow those rules, otherwise we get
Michael Malice (2:49:44.120)
punished severely. And so like his responses, like people reacted to them as like, okay,
Michael Malice (2:49:49.640)
that's the CEO doing the political, but there's also truth to what he's saying. That one of the
Michael Malice (2:49:55.080)
beautiful things about America is that you can criticize the rule of law currently, but it's still
Michael Malice (2:50:01.160)
is better than in the Soviet Union where people bribed each other. But still, he made it seem like
Michael Malice (2:50:12.360)
there's no corruption. People often ask me why I describe myself as an anarchist and not a
Michael Malice (2:50:19.240)
narcocapitalist, because they think my views are more in line with that school of anarchism.
Lex Fridman (2:50:24.440)
And one of the other reasons you just gave me a good one is that I'm not an anarchist,
Michael Malice (2:50:29.720)
you just gave me a good one, is that if I am talking to someone who's a major CEO,
Michael Malice (2:50:37.400)
I have that hardcore left anarchist view that this person is, if not the devil, certainly gonna be
Michael Malice (2:50:44.600)
sinister, at the very least. And if you can't say, listen, this happens inevitably with elites,
Michael Malice (2:50:51.320)
it's, you know, it happens in universities, it happens in the food industry, there's only so many
Michael Malice (2:50:55.640)
people at the top of these things, the field is small, and everyone's gonna know each other,
Michael Malice (2:51:00.200)
which is kind of, you know, just the dynamics of any market, that would kind of be more reasonable.
Lex Fridman (2:51:05.240)
And just say, it's easy to caricature us because you're not in the boardroom, but we're not,
Michael Malice (2:51:09.960)
you know, we are trying to produce a product that people want. So unlike the people who criticized
Michael Malice (2:51:16.680)
me, I was bothered by, I wasn't bothered by most things, but I was bothered by the fact that he
Michael Malice (2:51:22.520)
didn't show more worry about the corrupting nature of money and power. Like, he should,
Michael Malice (2:51:29.160)
if you say that there's no corruption, you should show that because we constantly worry about it.
Lex Fridman (2:51:35.480)
Right.
Michael Malice (2:51:36.280)
Not because like, look, there's rules.
Lex Fridman (2:51:39.640)
Yeah, which are enforced by you.
Michael Malice (2:51:41.320)
Yeah, exactly. So like, I think the only way to avoid force for time, the corrupting force of
Lex Fridman (2:51:49.800)
power is to freak out about it, nonstop.
Michael Malice (2:51:53.640)
The impression I always get from people like him, and I haven't seen the interview and I won't be
Lex Fridman (2:51:57.960)
watching it, is they're genuinely convinced that they're good guys.
Michael Malice (2:52:03.560)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:52:04.440)
And if you're the good guy, sure corruption is a concern theoretically, but I know this guy at the
Michael Malice (2:52:10.920)
FDA, I know this senator, sure we disagree, sure they do some things I don't like, but in terms of
Michael Malice (2:52:16.120)
corrupt, they're not getting briefcases full of money, they're not gonna sell a vaccine that,
Michael Malice (2:52:21.320)
you know, kills people in Georgia. So yeah, it's a concern theoretically, but this is the 21st
Lex Fridman (2:52:25.800)
century. The thought process, I think, writes itself.
Michael Malice (2:52:28.600)
I think, yeah, having the humility, I do this all the time, maybe to a destructive level,
Michael Malice (2:52:34.200)
thinking that I might be doing bad for the world, I might be wrong, I might be that kind of thinking
Michael Malice (2:52:38.840)
is very, you should do at least some of that. Not to a point of being paralyzed, but a little bit.
Lex Fridman (2:52:44.120)
You're actually in the right mindset for me to ask you then for advice.
Michael Malice (2:52:49.080)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (2:52:49.560)
You're in this compassionate, thoughtful mood, I like it. The compassionate,
Michael Malice (2:52:53.800)
thoughtful Michael. So for future conversations like that, so the person that offered a conversation
Michael Malice (2:53:03.000)
that at first I avoided, but I might return to is Anthony Fauci. So there's Anthony Fauci,
Lex Fridman (2:53:08.520)
but then there's also Trump and Biden, people like that. Like if you had them on your show or
Michael Malice (2:53:15.640)
just giving me advice on how to talk to them, what do you think is the right way
Michael Malice (2:53:20.920)
to talk to them? And forget about future guests, but like to get at something new, you know,
Michael Malice (2:53:28.120)
together. Like get at something, not for views or likes or clicks or any of that,
Lex Fridman (2:53:32.680)
but discover something new through the mode of conversation.
Michael Malice (2:53:35.560)
Well, like let's take those one at a time. So if I was talking to Trump, I told Ruben to ask Trump
Michael Malice (2:53:40.680)
this and he didn't. What I wanted to know is what's the look on your face when you're sending
Michael Malice (2:53:45.240)
these tweets, right? Because I imagine him on the toilet with his phone, right? Are you cracking
Lex Fridman (2:53:49.640)
yourself up? Are you just completely stoic? Are you kind of that Trump little smirk he does?
Lex Fridman (2:53:54.200)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:53:55.000)
So when you get someone to open up about their emotion, about some of their passion,
Lex Fridman (2:54:01.080)
I think that breaks down some barriers and creates a bond.
Michael Malice (2:54:05.000)
Yeah. But Ruben wouldn't be, that's not his style. Like that's a great question for you to ask.
Lex Fridman (2:54:09.800)
Well, I told him to say Michael Malice.
Michael Malice (2:54:11.560)
Oh, Michael Malice.
Michael Malice (2:54:13.400)
For Biden, that would be a tough one because Biden gets, doesn't get enough credit for what
Michael Malice (2:54:19.800)
a good politician he is. There was this moment people can see on YouTube where Biden is addressing
Michael Malice (2:54:25.960)
a room full of people and he had someone there and he goes, can you, why don't you stand up so
Michael Malice (2:54:30.600)
everyone can give you a hand? And the guy was in a wheelchair and Biden's like, oh, and like,
Lex Fridman (2:54:37.640)
but instantly he goes, you know what, we're all going to stand up for you. And he made everyone
Michael Malice (2:54:41.720)
get up and applaud the guy. I'm like, that's quick. Like, yeah, you made a fool of yourself.
Lex Fridman (2:54:45.800)
So he is a glad hander. In many ways, he's more of a schmoozer than Trump was. Like Trump
Michael Malice (2:54:50.920)
made the point that he knows all the good people, but Biden knows how to shake hands.
Michael Malice (2:54:54.600)
Well, I think with both, and sorry to interrupt, with both Trump and Biden, like you mentioned
Michael Malice (2:54:58.360)
earlier, to me, at least their family is fascinating. The dynamic as a family man,
Michael Malice (2:55:03.880)
as a father, as a... I think that Biden won't acknowledge his illegitimate grandkid is a
Michael Malice (2:55:08.840)
problem for me. But at the same time, I can see why he thinks it's off limits to ask.
Lex Fridman (2:55:13.560)
So that's the thing when you're dealing with people that powerful, they're not used to having
Michael Malice (2:55:17.080)
to answer questions, which might be perfectly nice, but would cause them to freak the hell out.
Michael Malice (2:55:22.120)
That's the tricky thing of talking to people, as you know, like some, some topics are off limit,
Michael Malice (2:55:27.240)
not in that they draw lines, but they just shut down when you ask them. Trust me, I think I talked
Michael Malice (2:55:34.440)
to Elon three times now, you better believe I brought up love. And how far do you think that
Michael Malice (2:55:40.520)
got? And you could just imagine exactly. We did exactly the kind of robot back and forth. And he
Michael Malice (2:55:47.480)
just like just shut down. So yeah, I worry about that with the person. But that's the thing that
Michael Malice (2:55:52.120)
makes it fascinating with those two, because he had with Hunter and losing his son, like
Michael Malice (2:55:59.560)
the dynamic of the complexities of all that, like just having children fuck up in the way children
Michael Malice (2:56:08.200)
do. And then with Trump, the interesting dynamic with his very different kids and all kind of
Michael Malice (2:56:14.680)
interesting in different ways and maintaining connection with all of them and also letting
Michael Malice (2:56:19.480)
them flourish individually is fascinating to me. Well, I also want to ask Trump if he can name all
Michael Malice (2:56:23.560)
the presidents in order, which there's no, he can, but I'd also want to know all the, do you think
Michael Malice (2:56:28.600)
he knows who the second president of the United States is? Yes. Okay. John Adams, he knows. I think
Michael Malice (2:56:34.040)
when it gets between Ulysses S. Grant and McKinley, that's when we all screw up that window. It's
Michael Malice (2:56:39.880)
tough. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure that's the one window where he, I mean, he's not, he's going to be able
Michael Malice (2:56:45.160)
to get back to FDR. No question. I have to, my sense was with Donald Trump, and this is not,
Michael Malice (2:56:53.000)
I would say criticism is he doesn't have a depth of knowledge or more importantly,
Michael Malice (2:56:57.640)
curiosity about history. Yeah. But if you're old enough, you're going to at least remember
Michael Malice (2:57:01.960)
the presidents in your lifetime. In your lifetime. Yeah. Sorry. That's what I was saying. He'll get
Michael Malice (2:57:07.640)
us from president to FDR pretty easily. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Sure. I thought you meant FDR from
Michael Malice (2:57:13.320)
the other direction. No, no. Yeah. From like current FDR. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, from a
Michael Malice (2:57:18.840)
political perspective, like having a conversation about politics with those two, there is interesting
Michael Malice (2:57:28.120)
topics, interaction between Donald Trump and Putin, not the interaction, like not the stupid
Michael Malice (2:57:33.960)
journalistic stuff, but it's clear to me that he is a student of power. Oh, for sure. And like he
Michael Malice (2:57:41.640)
enjoys the game of power. Yeah. And so it's interesting because to me, the reason he admires
Michael Malice (2:57:46.920)
Putin is it's another player in the game of power. And I think why so many people hate him, Trump,
Michael Malice (2:57:54.120)
is that he demonstrated to a lot of Americans how much of a con job most of politics is and how
Michael Malice (2:57:59.560)
people just say what they need to do. But behind closed doors, these people are buffoons and he
Michael Malice (2:58:03.800)
exposed them as that. I'd also, so the Biden, I think Biden would be a tougher interview than
Michael Malice (2:58:10.440)
Trump because I feel like Biden's more slippery in many ways. He's much more of a consummate
Michael Malice (2:58:14.120)
politician. He's been in the Senate since the early seventies, since he was like 30 or 35,
Michael Malice (2:58:19.240)
whatever it was. So, you know, he'd have his little kind of pat answers. There was Larry King,
Michael Malice (2:58:26.520)
who was certainly a softball interviewer and I don't begrudge him that at all. I remember
Michael Malice (2:58:31.320)
very vividly and it was like, I think it was the 2008 cycle. He asked Hillary, why do so many
Michael Malice (2:58:36.600)
people hate you? Why do you think so many people hate you? And she just goes like, oh, well,
Michael Malice (2:58:40.440)
I take tough stances on the, and he cut her off. He goes, other people have taken those stances.
Lex Fridman (2:58:44.520)
Why do they hate you? And she didn't really, I was really impressed with him that he didn't let her
Michael Malice (2:58:48.440)
off the hook. That to me is great. But some people will say that's still too softball because you
Michael Malice (2:58:55.400)
like, they would want him to start listing, I don't know, droning, like all the things that
Michael Malice (2:59:02.680)
Hillary Clinton is criticized for. Yeah, but then what she, she's done this many times. She's very
Michael Malice (2:59:06.280)
good at this. She'll be like, look, I've addressed all these in the past. If you want to start
Michael Malice (2:59:09.800)
rehashing Republican talking points, you can go look up my interviews. Yeah, I think it's
Michael Malice (2:59:13.560)
counterproductive. Yeah. So what about more prescient for me? I can't believe I'm walking
Michael Malice (2:59:20.760)
through this fire for no good reason whatsoever, but Anthony Fauci. So let me tell you why I care
Michael Malice (2:59:25.480)
about Anthony Fauci because I care a lot about science and the way science is viewed in society.
Lex Fridman (2:59:31.720)
And not to put it at the, at the feet of this one person, but I, him and certain members of the
Michael Malice (2:59:40.680)
scientific community that was responsible for managing the response to COVID, I think are
Michael Malice (2:59:47.320)
somewhat or entirely responsible for a significant decrease in trust in science. Yes, no question.
Michael Malice (2:59:54.360)
In the past couple of years. There was a poll that just came out this week that said the number is
Michael Malice (2:59:57.720)
just collapsed. And if you don't blame him for it, I personally blame him for not
Michael Malice (30:04.200)
are, but just literally see there's something off here. There's something off here and I'm not going
Michael Malice (30:09.320)
to participate in it. I'm going to defend these scientists because something off, first of all,
Michael Malice (30:14.200)
You're always defending academia is disgusting. It's my favorite thing. I think that, first of all,
Michael Malice (30:19.880)
this is going to sound like a joke and it's not, I bet you 90% of those MIT scientists are on the
Michael Malice (30:26.200)
spectrum. So everyone they're going to meet is going to be off. Right? So I'm sure part of their
Michael Malice (30:30.520)
brain is like, okay, this person's weird. This is just them being on the spectrum.
Michael Malice (30:33.320)
Like the light spectrum. I couldn't even finish the joke. Okay.
Michael Malice (30:38.280)
Number two is off. We, we tend to, there's this poem, I forget who wrote it. It was like Nick
Michael Malice (30:46.440)
Cave or something. And it was describing like, I think it was Goebbels hair, normal height,
Michael Malice (30:53.720)
normal weight, normal. What do you expect? Horns. Right? So when you meet someone, you think
Michael Malice (31:00.120)
something's off, there's going to be a bell curve of what that could be. Right? It could be that
Michael Malice (31:04.360)
they're twitchy or maybe they're completely asocial. And then you have Jeffrey Epstein over
Michael Malice (31:08.840)
here. You're going to need a lot of evidence to be like, Oh, I feel something off there for this
Michael Malice (31:14.040)
guy's the head of an international, you know, sex trafficking ring. So yeah, you might be like, okay.
Lex Fridman (31:20.280)
But at the same time, if their extended relationship is this guy is interested in my work,
Michael Malice (31:24.600)
he's going to fund my work and I don't have to give him anything in return. He's clearly intelligent.
Michael Malice (31:28.920)
He's appreciating it. And being a scientist is a thankless job. I, I know what it's like as an
Michael Malice (31:34.680)
author. When I was writing Dear Reader, the North Korea book, my friends are sick of hearing all
Michael Malice (31:38.520)
these North Korea anecdotes. Cause at a certain point it's like, okay, we got it. Just save it
Michael Malice (31:41.800)
for the book. And you know, you gotta be in that lab. You're looking at the springtails,
Michael Malice (31:45.080)
whatever it is you're looking at. No one knows what a springtail is.
Michael Malice (31:47.320)
I just disagree with you. So that'd be interesting to draw a distinction between science and writing
Michael Malice (31:52.920)
because the scientific process itself is fun as fuck. It's you're solving little puzzles.
Lex Fridman (31:58.360)
Sure.
Lex Fridman (31:58.840)
So like in itself, it's fun. So like it's rewarding. Like the reason you go into
Michael Malice (32:05.880)
science is you can continue really without a boss to continue having fun and solving puzzles.
Michael Malice (32:12.040)
That's, that's literally, so like, uh, unless you become cynical and tired of the whole thing.
Lex Fridman (32:18.840)
So the, the people, the administration, or when you're running a large lab and what you get sick
Michael Malice (32:23.880)
of is the emails and the meetings and all that kind of stuff. The actual act of being in the lab
Michael Malice (32:29.160)
is still fun as fuck. If you allow it to be writing, I feel like is there's more priority
Michael Malice (32:36.440)
to publishing. Like, would you enjoy it? The tree falling in the forest, would you still enjoy any
Lex Fridman (32:43.080)
of the books you've written if they never got published?
Michael Malice (32:45.880)
Not to the same extent, not even close.
Michael Malice (32:47.960)
Right. I think that's the thing about science. It's almost like you get a peek into the mysterious.
Michael Malice (32:53.720)
Yeah, but this is, okay, let me, this is where I'm coming from. Since moving to Austin,
Lex Fridman (32:59.240)
I've bought 150, over 150 plants.
Michael Malice (33:02.200)
Look how you're doing the, the politician thing.
Lex Fridman (33:06.520)
Let me be clear. All right. It's not.
Michael Malice (33:09.960)
Oh, you are running in 2024. This is very interesting.
Michael Malice (33:13.880)
I bought 150 succulents from my house. They're, they're thriving here in Austin as they wouldn't have in Brooklyn.
Michael Malice (33:19.400)
You have a great video about it.
Michael Malice (33:20.600)
Yeah. One of those plants I have is the photo I took on my Instagram. There's no other photos on the whole internet.
Michael Malice (33:26.200)
None of my friends care or they care like ostensibly, but like, oh, that's cool. Like I have a better plant
Michael Malice (33:31.240)
collection in my house than like almost any botanical succulent collection than any botanical
Michael Malice (33:36.200)
garden in America other than probably the Huntington and no one cares.
Lex Fridman (33:39.160)
This is what ego looks like, by the way.
Michael Malice (33:40.920)
I was, I can prove it to you.
Lex Fridman (33:42.920)
No, I know, but you don't have to rub it in.
Michael Malice (33:45.160)
Well, they have a big budget. I don't. So if I can put it together, they should be able to.
Lex Fridman (33:49.560)
Right.
Lex Fridman (33:50.200)
So I can only imagine that a scientist who studied, you know, those spiders that look like ants,
Michael Malice (33:56.920)
like at a certain, like, oh, and this species does this with the gender dimorphism.
Michael Malice (34:02.040)
Their friends are only going to care so much. So if you meet someone who has a lot of money,
Lex Fridman (34:05.880)
who now cares about ant spiders, it's going to be exciting.
Michael Malice (34:09.400)
It will be very exciting. But I just wanted to push back on the,
Michael Malice (34:14.600)
I think the act itself should be the biggest reward. I think you're always safe.
Michael Malice (34:20.200)
We're talking about goodness being a safe default. I think it's a good default
Michael Malice (34:25.000)
for plants and for writing and for science is to just enjoy the act, even if nobody cares.
Michael Malice (34:33.960)
Okay. This is where this, okay. Now I'm even,
Lex Fridman (34:36.440)
now I'm wondering why I'm pushing back so hard and I realized what it was.
Michael Malice (34:40.280)
Because I've made this point several times and I'm glad I can make it again.
Michael Malice (34:45.000)
There's this window of time that happened in my life. And I know it happens to a lot of people
Michael Malice (34:50.040)
when you're in your 24 to 27, 28. So 21 to 24, you still have your friends from college,
Lex Fridman (34:56.840)
so on and so forth. But then it's kind of like a poker game and every so often people cash out.
Michael Malice (35:02.920)
They're like, I'm out, I'm out. They get married, they get a job, they move.
Lex Fridman (35:06.600)
And if you are someone who is a young, ambitious creative, that window is a very rough one because
Michael Malice (35:12.520)
you're doing the right thing and you're not being a drug addict, you're not being a philanderer,
Michael Malice (35:18.120)
not that those things are wrong, but just like you're playing by the rules. You're creating your
Michael Malice (35:22.760)
stuff, what you want to be known for, contribution you want to make for the world. And no one cares
Lex Fridman (35:27.560)
and it gets very lonely. And there's this very emotional disconnect about how is it that I'm
Michael Malice (35:34.600)
creating and I'm working hard and I'm making something happen and it's just radio silence.
Lex Fridman (35:40.040)
So that, I don't think it's that easy when you're, you're the scientist, not me,
Michael Malice (35:44.760)
when you don't have any kind of external validation. Humans only have so much fuel.
Michael Malice (35:50.520)
TITO Nothing worth having is easy, Michael. By the way, yesterday I talked on the phone with a
Michael Malice (35:57.560)
person who said he was deeply moved the first time you mentioned this age group of 24 to 27. He's
Michael Malice (36:03.960)
like, he, he's 26, he said, and he feels the full responsibility of that and the excitement. So he
Michael Malice (36:11.400)
left his like corporate typey job to pursue something that he's really passionate about.
Lex Fridman (36:17.000)
And that, that, that was like, you were an inspiration to him, which I was deeply saddened
Michael Malice (36:22.600)
by that. MICHAEL I also inspired Michael Alex. TITO The, the, the, the amount of mass murder,
Michael Malice (36:30.600)
those that were inspired by you will eventually lead to is, is truly horrifying. What were we
Michael Malice (36:36.920)
talking about? So Jeffrey Epstein, oh, one thing I wanted to ask you. So let's put scientists aside.
Lex Fridman (36:43.800)
What about like world leaders? Bill Clinton, your favorite person. Why would he fly with Jeffrey
Michael Malice (36:52.200)
Epstein? Why would he interact with that guy? MICHAEL I mean, don't you think that that's kind
Michael Malice (37:00.600)
of the deal that I'm the president and I get big and powerful people flying around their jets
Lex Fridman (37:06.680)
and that's the symbiotic relationship. TITO Yeah, but don't you also have a good BS detector? Like
Michael Malice (37:13.480)
don't you have a good detector for people who just want to be in your presence? Like I already
Michael Malice (37:20.120)
understand that there's people like this out there. Like there's people that kind of
Lex Fridman (37:24.680)
want to use me for stuff. And you mean Tim Dylan, Tim Dylan. Um,
Michael Malice (37:31.240)
TITO I love that guy. You guys met? MICHAEL We haven't met yet here.
Lex Fridman (37:37.800)
TITO We haven't met. Okay. Wow. MICHAEL We met before in New York,
Lex Fridman (37:40.440)
but we had not since I moved here. TITO Yeah. So you should be able to
Michael Malice (37:44.120)
detect that there's those people and there's the people that have kindness in their heart,
Michael Malice (37:47.960)
even if they can benefit from the interaction with you, but they have like, they're good human
Michael Malice (37:51.480)
beings. I feel like you want to, you run into a lot of trouble if you surround yourself or have
Michael Malice (37:56.520)
any people that are manipulative like that. MICHAEL But I think you make a bad example.
Michael Malice (38:01.800)
Cause like, let's look at Clinton and let's look at Obama, right? So Obama, even though their
Michael Malice (38:06.280)
politics are very close, I'd say in many ways, Obama is apparent. We don't know. I don't know
Michael Malice (38:12.040)
either of them, but to me it seems very apparent that he's very similar behind closed doors as he
Michael Malice (38:16.760)
in front of the camera. TITO Yeah. He's, he's Barack to me.
Lex Fridman (38:18.680)
MICHAEL Oh, yeah. Yeah. TITO He's good.
Michael Malice (38:21.080)
MICHAEL Clinton seems very clearly to be much more of a performer. He's in front of the cameras,
Michael Malice (38:27.960)
he puts on a role, but behind the cameras, he very much has a temper. He's known for that.
Lex Fridman (38:32.120)
He's much more of a lech. TITO What's that?
Lex Fridman (38:35.000)
MICHAEL A pervert. TITO Oh, lech with an E?
Michael Malice (38:37.960)
MICHAEL L E T C H. Yeah.
Michael Malice (38:39.080)
TITO Oh, cool. Lech. Is that like a, that's a cool term. So I can use that on the internet.
Michael Malice (38:44.520)
Like you're a lech. MICHAEL Yeah, you can use it on the internet.
Lex Fridman (38:46.680)
TITO You're a dirty lech. MICHAEL Well, it's dirty is implied.
Michael Malice (38:49.240)
TITO Oh, so it's okay. Being redundant.
Lex Fridman (38:52.840)
MICHAEL Yeah. TITO But it just feels like he
Michael Malice (38:55.080)
needs an adjective to give it more power. Anyway, I'm sorry. So Clinton is a lech.
Michael Malice (38:59.400)
MICHAEL Right. So you can see how there's people who want to meet, you know, the surface Bill
Michael Malice (39:06.440)
Clinton and I'm sure that gets old for him because he has to be on. But then there's the good old
Michael Malice (39:10.680)
boys where he could be a pervert and this guy's like, yeah, I know what it's like. And then he
Michael Malice (39:15.960)
feels like he's himself. But I'm all, we're all speculating. I mean, I don't know what Bill
Michael Malice (39:20.200)
Clinton is like, what was in it for him. He certainly had, could afford private jets if he
Michael Malice (39:24.440)
wanted to. There's no shortage of people who want to fly around the world to give speeches, you know.
Lex Fridman (39:28.280)
TITO Can he satisfy the lech within,
Michael Malice (39:34.440)
without hanging out with the Jeffrey Epstein's of the world? Like, can't he get, I mean,
Michael Malice (39:38.040)
this is the Monica Lewinsky question to me. I'm confused by all of this. Can he get
Michael Malice (39:43.000)
TITO women in the legitimate way of like not using his power, not hanging out with these
Lex Fridman (39:51.320)
shady rich people, but just like having a normal mistress like JFK had?
Michael Malice (39:57.320)
MICHAEL Well, JFK had a lot.
Michael Malice (39:58.520)
TITO I know. I understand that. But in a normal way, or I don't, I don't know enough.
Michael Malice (3:00:07.880)
improving the problem. And so there's definitely would be a harsh conversation there to be had.
Lex Fridman (3:00:14.840)
And I think I want to have it, but how do you do it? It's tough. Yeah. Because, you know,
Michael Malice (3:00:21.560)
again, politicians, there's political answers. If they get too frustrated too quickly,
Lex Fridman (3:00:26.120)
they will not explore these difficult things with you. They'll just shut down.
Lex Fridman (3:00:31.320)
But then if you say too many nice things, because I should also say Anthony Fauci is an incredible
Michael Malice (3:00:37.160)
career. Like there's several hours worth of conversation to be had about how amazing of
Michael Malice (3:00:43.080)
a person he is. Well, I would also be curious about the AIDS stuff. Yes. Because that's something
Michael Malice (3:00:46.840)
gets criticized about and I wouldn't come at it aggressively. I would say, let's set the record
Michael Malice (3:00:50.120)
straight. This is some of the criticism you get, blah, blah, blah. Your role in the AIDS crisis.
Michael Malice (3:00:54.840)
Let's talk about this. And this is something that is important part of American history. There was
Michael Malice (3:00:59.160)
a pandemic, but it was localized to certain populations. And that population at the first,
Michael Malice (3:01:04.120)
at least, was pretty much told goodbye and good luck. You're going to have to deal with this.
Lex Fridman (3:01:07.960)
So how did you deal with that? I mean, were you scared of getting AIDS? You know, so on and so
Michael Malice (3:01:11.800)
forth. But also there was that comment when, and correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a Fauci expert,
Michael Malice (3:01:17.960)
when he basically, they told people not to wear masks or they lied about it to some extent,
Michael Malice (3:01:22.920)
because they said then people are going to run out of them or something like that. And they
Michael Malice (3:01:25.880)
admitted they were being inaccurate. I would nail him on that. Like, let's address this.
Michael Malice (3:01:30.440)
Were you being dishonest? Is there sometimes when it's important to be dishonest in service
Michael Malice (3:01:34.520)
of whatever? Also, I would ask him how, as someone who's not a politician, whether his level of fame
Lex Fridman (3:01:40.440)
and adulation has gotten to his head. How do you have a perspective when, and how does it feel
Michael Malice (3:01:45.800)
when a sitting Senator tells you that you should be imprisoned? Do you think Ted Cruz means it,
Michael Malice (3:01:50.040)
or you think Ted Cruz is just playing to his base? Yeah, I like the fame one. I would love to sneak
Michael Malice (3:01:57.240)
up. I mean, that question applies to you too. The question applies to me. When you start getting
Michael Malice (3:02:02.520)
more fame or money or power, are you aware of how that changed you? And like explore that. Like,
Lex Fridman (3:02:10.680)
how has that changed you? Like if you, like in the privacy of your mind, Michael Malice,
Michael Malice (3:02:16.120)
like how did you change now that you've gotten more attention, let's say, or even the success
Michael Malice (3:02:22.280)
of the book? Like, is it, like, take yourself back to the, you know, you talk about the early 20s,
Michael Malice (3:02:29.160)
the mid 20s person. How are you different from that person? Are you the same person or are you
Michael Malice (3:02:33.560)
totally different? That's an interesting thought. Is Putin the same person in 2020 as he was in 2010
Lex Fridman (3:02:39.880)
and then in 2000? It's a non trivial, almost like. And then the other thing with Fauci is this is
Michael Malice (3:02:50.040)
the dynamic system. Like on the one hand, he's going to want to say we got it right every time,
Michael Malice (3:02:54.920)
right? But then how is that even possible when you're dealing with an evolving, unknown, dynamic
Michael Malice (3:02:59.880)
situation? When did you guys get it wrong? Did that result in lives lost? Do you feel guilty about
Michael Malice (3:03:04.280)
that? I mean, the big problem with the masks, the changing of mind on the mask is the arrogance in
Lex Fridman (3:03:10.280)
how it was communicated. To me, a lot of this boils down to how things are communicated. It's
Michael Malice (3:03:17.080)
like, it's obvious that you need to change your mind when you get new information or sometimes,
Michael Malice (3:03:20.760)
yeah, you take policies that are like, we know the truth, but we're going to lie for a particular
Michael Malice (3:03:26.680)
reason. Like you have good intentions, but if you're not able to communicate that later,
Michael Malice (3:03:31.720)
like we made a mistake. Or even ask him, can you understand how a rational person might choose not
Michael Malice (3:03:39.560)
to get vaccinated? Yes. Yes. Yes. And if he can't steel man that, then that's a situation. That's
Michael Malice (3:03:47.800)
a good test. And I've tried, and some people succeed and some people fail. The ability to
Michael Malice (3:03:52.200)
really steel man the other, understand that somebody should, would be hesitant about taking
Michael Malice (3:03:56.840)
the vaccine. Yeah. It's a giant mess, man. This podcasting is, it's just a fun little conversation,
Lex Fridman (3:04:05.160)
but there also is a responsibility. I don't know. I don't know how Joe does it.
Michael Malice (3:04:11.000)
I don't think Joe cares as much as you do. It's more fun for him in a sense. And he's less
Michael Malice (3:04:16.040)
concerned about the, I mean, he's not unconcerned with the cultural impact, but for him, it's just
Michael Malice (3:04:19.560)
more broing out. Yeah. Like he doesn't do as much prep. He doesn't come in with three pages,
Michael Malice (3:04:23.960)
single space to, you know, questions. Yeah. And that's why he's talking to Blair White
Michael Malice (3:04:29.800)
for 10 minutes about whether sharks lay eggs without knowing. You're the one triggered person.
Michael Malice (3:04:35.160)
He did. Maybe he trolled the troll. Well, it worked. Yeah, he did. The sharks lay eggs.
Michael Malice (3:04:43.400)
I'd like to get an updated 2021 version of Michael Malice giving advice to young people.
Michael Malice (3:04:49.160)
Okay. So there's, God forbid, high school students, college students, listening to you
Lex Fridman (3:04:59.240)
and looking to you for advice. What advice would you give them about career and about life? How to
Michael Malice (3:05:06.280)
live a life they can be proud of. This happens a lot. Cause I have my locals community malice.locals.com
Lex Fridman (3:05:11.320)
and there's a lot of young people on there. So that's a great place. I'll give them a meta piece
Michael Malice (3:05:15.720)
of advice. Don't ask your friends for advice because you're an idiot at your age and they're
Michael Malice (3:05:21.240)
all idiots and they don't want to seem like idiots. So they're just going to give you advice. They
Michael Malice (3:05:24.600)
pulled it from the TV and no one knows that you're talking about and it's just going to be
Michael Malice (3:05:27.800)
counterintuitive. So seek out advice from people who you seek to emulate and ask them for advice.
Michael Malice (3:05:36.280)
If you can't get ahold of them, figure out a way to get ahold of them. Incentivize them in some way.
Michael Malice (3:05:40.120)
You'd be surprised how many people are responsive on Twitter or in social media if you just asked them
Michael Malice (3:05:44.760)
a basic life question. Cause then they can quote tweet an answer to a whole population. So that
Michael Malice (3:05:49.080)
would be one mechanism. It's also very hard at that age to realize your parents might not be all
Michael Malice (3:05:56.440)
that bright and they might not be all that good people. So that's a hard one at that age to kind
Michael Malice (3:06:02.520)
of wrap your head around. Just cause they love you doesn't mean they understand you. And that's okay.
Michael Malice (3:06:06.680)
That's, that's okay. We thank everybody. Shit, your Trump's pretty good too. I, I, I'd like your
Michael Malice (3:06:13.400)
Trump, your Trump to talk to Elon, to have a conversation. Well, Mr. President, you know,
Michael Malice (3:06:19.800)
look, uh, some things you did like some, not so much, but you know, for the most part, I think
Michael Malice (3:06:26.600)
they're kind of a good thing. What are you talking about? Um, hey guys, what are you, what are we
Michael Malice (3:06:36.840)
talking about? No, I fuck, I fucked up the Lex. Anyway, so those would be two pieces. The other
Michael Malice (3:06:41.400)
piece of advice I would say is join a gym or have some kind of quantifiable daily improvement to keep
Michael Malice (3:06:52.040)
you sane. So the reason I always say weightlifting and it could be, uh, running, it can be jump rope.
Michael Malice (3:06:58.840)
I don't care what it is because if you have those numbers moving in the positive direction,
Michael Malice (3:07:03.480)
psychological, if you're dealing with depression or anxiety, it's concrete proof to shut your brain
Michael Malice (3:07:08.120)
up because your brain knows how to talk to you. Your brain is often your enemy. And I'll say
Michael Malice (3:07:14.120)
exactly the right thing to undermine you. So that's an issue. Um, and I think that's a good
Michael Malice (3:07:19.880)
thing. So that's an issue. Um, be, I just, this works for me. Maybe it worked for most people.
Michael Malice (3:07:26.360)
I'm very high on the openness metric. Uh, try new experiences, new things, try things you don't like.
Michael Malice (3:07:32.760)
It's okay to have a bad experience. You've learned something. So go to a restaurant of
Michael Malice (3:07:36.760)
a cuisine you wouldn't like or hadn't heard of, read a book that's popular, but you have no
Michael Malice (3:07:41.560)
interest in, um, read a lot. For example, I didn't know anything about the, uh, election. What was
Michael Malice (3:07:47.240)
it? 1892 when there was like a split between the electors, read a book about it. Oh, I don't know
Michael Malice (3:07:52.040)
anything. You know, I don't know anything really about Malcolm X. Read a book about him. Uh, you'll
Michael Malice (3:07:55.880)
be amazed how much more full you become as a person. Do you see value in writing also, like
Michael Malice (3:08:02.280)
writing down your ideas? No, I think there's very little value in that. I'm not being, I'm not
Michael Malice (3:08:06.120)
joking. So reading is where the biggest. Yeah. Cause you're probably not going to revisit what
Michael Malice (3:08:09.400)
you've written down. Um, but the act of writing, you don't, you don't see it solidify somehow
Michael Malice (3:08:15.160)
thoughts in your mind. Not for me. It doesn't feel like a tweet. Well, cause then it's, then I have
Michael Malice (3:08:19.320)
to have it narrowed down into like a phrase or the responsibility of there being an audience.
Michael Malice (3:08:25.320)
No, I just meant in terms of I've got two 80 characters. So instead of having a reandering
Michael Malice (3:08:28.920)
thought, meandering thought, I have to codify it in something that's catchy and short. That's a
Michael Malice (3:08:33.480)
good, useful mental exercise. What face do you make when you tweet? I wouldn't know. I don't know.
Michael Malice (3:08:40.200)
That's a good point. Is it on the toilet? How much, what percentages on the toilet? Very little on
Michael Malice (3:08:45.240)
the toilets. I usually more reading. Okay. Um, so even though my tweets are all literally shit,
Michael Malice (3:08:50.520)
uh, there are a few of them are on the toilet. Um, that's some advice. Um,
Michael Malice (3:08:58.120)
don't compare yourself to other people. That's a really dangerous one. All my friends are married.
Michael Malice (3:09:05.800)
I should have, I should have a kid by now. Should there's an expression in recovery. Stop shooting
Michael Malice (3:09:10.760)
yourself. But it's, but it should, should, should. It's stupid. I also, and this could be my hoarder
Michael Malice (3:09:18.840)
brain. I surround my house with talismans of joy. So if you have an accomplishment, like when I did
Michael Malice (3:09:25.800)
Rogan once, I bought with the sock store and I bought these orange socks with black cherries on
Michael Malice (3:09:31.000)
them. And now whenever I wore that socks, those socks, I'm like, Oh, this is cause I was on Rogan.
Michael Malice (3:09:35.240)
That was kind of a big deal. So if you have these little things throughout your house,
Michael Malice (3:09:39.000)
it's good mental fuel, even like, like a toy. Remember when I was a kid, Oh, you know what,
Michael Malice (3:09:43.720)
this little moments that inspire happiness, I think are visually very useful. Um, so that's
Michael Malice (3:09:50.040)
another one. Um, and I, by the way, have the, that the watch and, um, that cause we're talking
Michael Malice (3:10:00.040)
about 2021. That was really, um, the guy in the lecture hall giving you a pat in the back,
Michael Malice (3:10:08.440)
Joe giving me the, the watch was, um, he has life changing from, yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't even,
Michael Malice (3:10:16.280)
I didn't, the fact that it was on a podcast or whatever, it doesn't matter. Learn how to,
Michael Malice (3:10:21.400)
um, form boundaries. That's probably the biggest, that's going to be number one on my list
Michael Malice (3:10:26.120)
because you're going to have people around you who feel the need that they're entitled
Michael Malice (3:10:29.960)
to your time, who feel the need to criticize you and they're not coming from a good place.
Lex Fridman (3:10:34.440)
So it's very good for you to be like, I'm not interested in talking about this anymore right
Michael Malice (3:10:37.720)
now. Yeah. Even if it's your parents, even if it's your, especially if it's your parents,
Michael Malice (3:10:41.320)
like I need my space right now, you're entitled to your space. You're entitled to your time.
Michael Malice (3:10:45.160)
No one knows yours. You don't owe anyone a response. If someone has a question,
Michael Malice (3:10:48.600)
you don't owe them an answer, especially if they're not coming at you in good faith or
Michael Malice (3:10:51.480)
they're coming in a hostile way. Um, that's a big one. Uh, it's hard to learn at that age.
Michael Malice (3:10:56.600)
Um, and, um, and, and be valuable to those who are around you, be someone who people are happy to
Michael Malice (3:11:08.440)
see. And if things are bad, like you're the one that they can rely on. Like I was just, uh, you
Michael Malice (3:11:15.080)
know, a little bit under the weather and I thought to myself, you know what, if things got really bad,
Michael Malice (3:11:18.760)
I'll call Blair and she's, she would take care of me. And that kind of was very reassuring.
Michael Malice (3:11:23.720)
Yeah. And you can always call me if you have your stuff lifted in, in a, in an urgent matter.
Lex Fridman (3:11:32.520)
Because of the robots?
Michael Malice (3:11:33.880)
No, just me. It's just kind of like, there's those things I can help with. Or you're actually
Michael Malice (3:11:37.960)
literally bleeding. I'm not a good caretaker. I can save you though. I can murder. If you need
Lex Fridman (3:11:42.200)
somebody murdered. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, wait, what advice would you have to kids that age?
Lex Fridman (3:11:48.760)
And you're all, you're a lot younger than you think you are. That's the other one. Like,
Lex Fridman (3:11:55.960)
Yeah, there's time.
Michael Malice (3:11:57.000)
I know. Like it's impossible to understand when you're 26 that your 40s are better than your 30s.
Lex Fridman (3:12:02.920)
Cause it's like, okay, old man, you're, that's all cope. I promise you it is.
Michael Malice (3:12:07.880)
Yeah. I think, uh, you said so many beautiful things. I would say
Michael Malice (3:12:11.960)
I would say another version of the openness. I would say take big risks when you're young.
Lex Fridman (3:12:19.000)
Yeah. Cause if you fail, who cares? You're sleeping in a suit. It's not in a futon. Who cares?
Lex Fridman (3:12:22.840)
And take them often.
Michael Malice (3:12:24.280)
Yeah.
Michael Malice (3:12:25.800)
I also, this is more a little personal to me. I get pushback on this, but I think
Michael Malice (3:12:34.360)
take big risks and work really hard. Like at whatever you do. Like, I think you just have to
Michael Malice (3:12:41.400)
give yourself to a thing. It doesn't have to be in terms of time, but really give everything. So it's
Michael Malice (3:12:46.840)
not like I'm going to try doing this. I'll try, I'll try, try with all your heart. Like really
Michael Malice (3:12:57.720)
commit yourself. That doesn't mean necessarily hours. That doesn't mean, but like if you fail
Michael Malice (3:13:03.560)
at doing a thing that you commit to, it should hurt. So like, uh, when I competed in Jiu Jitsu,
Michael Malice (3:13:09.880)
or you do like sports and so on, don't just say, I'm going to have fun out there. So on. No,
Michael Malice (3:13:14.600)
try to win. And because then if you don't, it hurts and you learn from that. Um, and then
Michael Malice (3:13:21.000)
throughout, I think this, the goodness thing is be kind. It's like, some of it is also a skill,
Michael Malice (3:13:27.400)
allowing yourself to be kind. I found myself earlier in life. I still do this.
Michael Malice (3:13:32.920)
I find like when I hang out with people, people are often like cynical and negative.
Lex Fridman (3:13:37.240)
And yeah, I try to avoid those people.
Michael Malice (3:13:39.400)
No, but like, I think everybody falls into that. And sometimes it's the party norm thing.
Michael Malice (3:13:46.280)
There's a temptation to me to kind of fit in by being more negative than I'm comfortable being.
Lex Fridman (3:13:51.800)
And so, um, resist the pressure. I think, especially when you're younger, it's not cool
Michael Malice (3:13:58.520)
to care. The thing that drives, when you're young, if you are a fan of a band, a writer,
Michael Malice (3:14:05.480)
a podcaster, an actor, and people roll their eyes at you, watch out. Those people are dangerous.
Michael Malice (3:14:11.160)
You should have it. If you love Avril Lavigne with her terrible music and she makes you,
Michael Malice (3:14:16.760)
gives you joy and people crap on you, they're wrong and you're right. So hold on to those
Michael Malice (3:14:21.880)
things that make you happy. And if people want to take that away from you or they,
Lex Fridman (3:14:26.280)
how can you like that? Those people are not your friends.
Michael Malice (3:14:28.920)
LLOYD Why do you have to go make life so complicated? She's my favorite,
Lex Fridman (3:14:37.880)
favorite musician of all time. Jimi Hendrix II, Avril Lavigne first.
Michael Malice (3:14:43.880)
Thank you for almost bringing a tear to my eye. You mentioned the shittos in terms of love and
Michael Malice (3:14:49.560)
you should have kids by now. I apologize if it's a personal one, but I think at least I have this
Michael Malice (3:14:55.800)
thought and not from society, but for myself. Like I want to get married. I want to have kids.
Lex Fridman (3:15:01.320)
Do you feel the pressure of that? Do you want to have kids?
Michael Malice (3:15:04.200)
LLOYD I just don't want to have kids.
Michael Malice (3:15:06.360)
I do want to get married. This was an issue that I had to kind of work out earlier this year
Michael Malice (3:15:15.000)
in terms of the possibility of having kids. Cause I was in a relationship with someone who would
Michael Malice (3:15:21.480)
have been in many ways, literally a perfect mom. So I did my due diligence and I actually sat down
Michael Malice (3:15:28.920)
with friends of mine who had kids and I say, give me the downside.
Lex Fridman (3:15:32.760)
LLOYD You did the pros and the cons.
Michael Malice (3:15:35.720)
LLOYD The pros I knew. The pros for kids are very, I love kids. I was just with Frank Fleming.
Michael Malice (3:15:41.000)
He writes for the Babylon Bee and he had his four kids and his youngest son has Down syndrome,
Michael Malice (3:15:45.400)
which is adorable. Winchester is so cute. And I always get along with kids very well. Like I
Michael Malice (3:15:53.480)
remember very vividly what it was like to be a kid, especially a precocious kid. And I remember
Lex Fridman (3:15:59.800)
how much it bothered me when my parents friends wouldn't give me attention. So I always make it
Michael Malice (3:16:05.080)
a point to acknowledge kids, to talk to them and they're very grateful. And it's just really fun.
Michael Malice (3:16:11.480)
Especially the people who I'm friends with, their kids are probably going to be pretty cool. They're
Michael Malice (3:16:14.840)
not going to be annoying and kind of ugly and overweight. So I love you got that in there.
Michael Malice (3:16:23.080)
Okay, good. Sorry, I'll go. But the cons, the negatives, what was the conversation like about
Michael Malice (3:16:30.280)
that? My sister has two kids, my nephews who I absolutely adore, whatever their names are.
Lex Fridman (3:16:36.040)
And she was saying certain things. It's like, if I had kids, my kids are in my top priority.
Michael Malice (3:16:42.840)
Yeah. Like it's not even a question. And I feel like the work I'm doing, and this sounds pompous,
Lex Fridman (3:16:49.320)
but it's true, is a valuable and important, but I'm also the only one doing it. So this is a big
Michael Malice (3:16:56.840)
cost. And so it's like, it would be a major lifestyle readjustment. And I'm at the point
Michael Malice (3:17:05.000)
where I'm kind of like selfish enough that I wouldn't want to do that. And also would have to
Michael Malice (3:17:10.440)
be with the right woman. Like you're making a commitment. And since they're all crazy,
Michael Malice (3:17:16.360)
you have to find one where you can handle the crazy. All women are crazy? Yeah.
Michael Malice (3:17:21.400)
There are one and a halfs in a binary world. Oh, boy. Yeah. It's not comfortable for me.
Lex Fridman (3:17:30.360)
But do you feel the pressure and thinking of that? How much does that weigh on your heart?
Michael Malice (3:17:33.960)
Like, so Elon has kids. I feel like I love everything. And I love stuff I do. I love
Michael Malice (3:17:42.360)
the robot over there. Just working with robots. But I do feel the pressure of like,
Michael Malice (3:17:53.880)
almost like when there's amazing cuisines you never tried or something like that,
Michael Malice (3:17:58.120)
like go out there and try it. Like you need to put in the work and I don't know. Like life will run
Michael Malice (3:18:05.000)
away from you, slip through your fingers before you truly get to experience this other kind of
Michael Malice (3:18:09.240)
love, which is like long term love for another human being, which is like marriage and then
Michael Malice (3:18:17.720)
love for kids. Yeah. And it almost makes me sad, like not getting to experience that.
Michael Malice (3:18:26.040)
You know, because I'm also really scared of, I've seen so many bad stories on the partner side,
Michael Malice (3:18:34.360)
like being with the wrong person. Right. That to me is, I'm not worried. I have kids all day.
Michael Malice (3:18:39.880)
In fact, I could probably just have kids without the partner. Kids I think are incredible. But the
Michael Malice (3:18:49.160)
partner, like a wife, it seems like she could then have the negative consequences for like
Michael Malice (3:18:54.200)
you as a writer on your productivity and your mental ability to flourish, being a joy to others,
Michael Malice (3:18:59.000)
to all those kinds of things. You know what? That couldn't happen because every relationship I've
Michael Malice (3:19:04.200)
had, they've been very beyond supportive. Like they'd rather do the, take an hour and do your
Michael Malice (3:19:14.440)
work than spend time with me. Like I believe in what you're doing. So I couldn't even casually
Michael Malice (3:19:19.160)
date someone who didn't believe that. Yeah. So that's energizing. Yes. But over time,
Michael Malice (3:19:23.240)
you never know like how that evolves and all those kinds of things. And for me, I think we're a
Michael Malice (3:19:28.120)
little bit different. I mean, that has to do with the engineering thing. I just have to pull insane
Michael Malice (3:19:32.280)
hours. I work like two hours a day. But that's what like creatives do. Like you can only work
Michael Malice (3:19:38.920)
a couple hours, honestly, to be productive and the rest of the time not. I have to do a lot of
Michael Malice (3:19:44.360)
menial labor. And so there, there's legit tension on terms of time and attention, all those kinds
Michael Malice (3:19:51.480)
of things. I don't know. Do you think about this stuff a lot or do you just love life and do cool
Michael Malice (3:19:57.800)
stuff and whatever happens, happens? I have been so blessed for so long now that I'm at the point
Michael Malice (3:20:03.960)
where I don't think about it and I'm like, you know, just like miracles happen every day. So just
Lex Fridman (3:20:10.840)
be open to it. You think about your death, mortality? Yes. Fear? What do you feel about it?
Michael Malice (3:20:19.400)
I'm just worried. I want to take as many people out with me as possible. So suitcase nuke, suitcase
Michael Malice (3:20:26.440)
nuke, I'm thinking. Yeah. In New York, that would be kind of like ironic as my other favorite artist.
Michael Malice (3:20:35.160)
I think about my legacy and that's why my books are so important to me.
Lex Fridman (3:20:41.400)
So do you think of it as a kind of immortality? It is though. Like that's who you are,
Michael Malice (3:20:46.760)
is those books. Well, it's not who I am, but my legacy certainly is. What do you hope your legacy
Michael Malice (3:20:52.440)
is? That I encourage people to be hopeful and that I taught them how to be free.
Lex Fridman (3:21:05.320)
And you know, my favorite, I think the best show of all time was Dallas, which often gets,
Michael Malice (3:21:11.320)
it was like an 80s soap opera and people conflate it with dynasty and they think it's trashy and it
Michael Malice (3:21:16.040)
was very Shakespearean because all the characters are motivated by different values and the writing
Michael Malice (3:21:21.320)
is just masterful and the acting is masterful. And I'm not going to spoil anything. One season ended
Michael Malice (3:21:28.760)
with one of the characters on their deathbed in the hospital and the whole cast is there
Lex Fridman (3:21:33.160)
and the amount of acting talent in that room is just phenomenal. And as the character is dying,
Michael Malice (3:21:41.320)
they look around and they go, like, please be kind to one another, be a family. And they're
Michael Malice (3:21:46.760)
yelling at this character, don't you dare die on me, you know? And you could see the actors,
Michael Malice (3:21:51.080)
you know, cause they're losing their castmate who they've had from the beginning. And it would have
Michael Malice (3:21:54.440)
been a perfect ending to the show, but obviously it's a cash cow. They got to keep milking it.
Lex Fridman (3:21:58.120)
And I think that like kindness and tenderness, and this is Michael Malice talking,
Michael Malice (3:22:02.840)
it's, there's a lot of people who want to make it that if you are kind or tender,
Michael Malice (3:22:09.960)
you're going to have consequences, bad consequences. And I think it's important,
Michael Malice (3:22:14.120)
for me at least, to create a space in my life that if someone is going to be nice or friendly or kind,
Michael Malice (3:22:22.360)
that they're not going to have to feel stupid or bad about it. It's, we have such a, it's such a
Michael Malice (3:22:27.960)
disincentive, the set of structures are different. Like if you want to be cynical and sneering, like
Michael Malice (3:22:32.840)
round of applause, but if someone says, oh, this is great, like, okay, simp, it's, it's really bad.
Michael Malice (3:22:37.720)
Well, I think you do just this. You do this today. You do this in our friendship and you
Michael Malice (3:22:45.080)
do it for a very large number of people is teach them how to be, how to have hope and teach them
Lex Fridman (3:22:51.640)
and teach them how to be free. So, thank you so much for talking to me. Thank you so much for
Michael Malice (3:23:03.560)
being an inspiration. I love you, brother. I love you. Thanks for listening to this conversation
Michael Malice (3:23:10.280)
with Michael Malice. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.
Lex Fridman (3:23:14.840)
And now let me leave you with some words from Albert Camus. Don't walk in front of me. I may
Michael Malice (3:23:21.320)
not follow. Don't walk behind me. I may not lead. Walk beside me. Just be my friend. Thank you for
Michael Malice (3:23:29.880)
thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
Michael Malice (40:02.520)
MICHAEL I don't understand the Clinton psychology. First of all, the fact that you're hooking up with
Michael Malice (40:09.880)
someone who's close to your daughter's age, to me, I think is inherently disturbing. But she's an
Michael Malice (40:15.800)
adult. So okay, that's not that, that, you know, beyond the pale. But also the idea that, oh, if I
Michael Malice (40:22.520)
don't physically fornicate with you, it's not cheating. Like that, whatever you tell yourself,
Lex Fridman (40:28.680)
or like, if I don't ejaculate, it's not cheating. Like these rules that
Michael Malice (40:34.280)
TITO And it maybe leads to some kind of slippery slope, like you start not having the rules of
Michael Malice (40:38.840)
MICHAEL Who you fool? I mean, if you told your wife, like, listen, it wasn't cheating. She only,
Michael Malice (40:44.280)
you know, performed on me. You're going to say this with a straight face? Like, do you, at a
Michael Malice (40:49.080)
certain point when something is so brazen, you wonder if the person even has to believe it because
Michael Malice (40:54.440)
who are you fooling? TITO But like, we started this,
Michael Malice (40:58.040)
this conversation with, there is a line between young women older than 18 and young teen, like 12,
Michael Malice (41:06.520)
13 kids. MICHAEL Have you ever, when's the last, oh, because you're, it's different for you because
Michael Malice (41:10.840)
you're at MIT. I was hanging out with Blair White, and she had a couple of fans with her, of hers,
Lex Fridman (41:17.640)
and they were like 22, 23. And they were like children to me. Like, I'm like, to me, as someone
Michael Malice (41:24.360)
who is in his late 60s, to look at these people as adults, like, they look completely like kids. So
Michael Malice (41:32.280)
TITO Now, of course, there's exceptions. Like, I've interacted with a young 20 year olds that are
Michael Malice (41:38.760)
like, you're way more mature than I'll ever be. Like, the wisdom that comes out of them is quite
Michael Malice (41:44.840)
fascinating. MICHAEL Visually, the energy and the way they look, they looked so young to me and the
Michael Malice (41:51.880)
way they carried themselves. It was the idea that my instinct was let's tuck you in and read you a
Michael Malice (41:59.160)
bedtime story, not let me like touch you or something. It was just like, it just went into
Michael Malice (42:04.360)
my head. So there's, but the thing is, is it possible that in order to want to be the president,
Michael Malice (42:10.840)
you have to be a crazy person? TITO That you have some kind of weird view on power. It could be a
Michael Malice (42:17.160)
power thing too. Like, you can get away with stuff. MICHAEL Like, if I was Clinton's age,
Michael Malice (42:23.080)
nothing about Monica Lewinsky to me would be attractive. And also, I would just feel bad for
Michael Malice (42:28.440)
her because I know she's going to catch feelings. And it's kind of like, it's just like, why would
Michael Malice (42:35.000)
I do this to this kid? For what? Just because I want to get some like momentary pleasure? Come on.
Michael Malice (42:40.040)
TITO Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure she looked gorgeous to him in the moment.
Lex Fridman (42:47.320)
Well, let me ask, we started talking about beauty. Who are you wearing?
Lex Fridman (42:51.640)
MICHAEL So as a model, you usually don't have a shirt on when you're modeling.
Lex Fridman (43:02.600)
So it's nice to see you dressed up today. Nice and warm.
Michael Malice (43:09.880)
TITO This is because, so for those who don't know, Russians don't celebrate Christmas,
Michael Malice (43:15.240)
obviously with the Soviet Union, Christmas was illegal.
Michael Malice (43:17.480)
MICHAEL No Thanksgiving, basically no major holidays where everyone gets together. This
Michael Malice (43:22.440)
is the one holiday, New Year's. It's the one holiday.
Lex Fridman (43:25.000)
TITO I remember as a kid, instead of Santa Claus,
Michael Malice (43:28.360)
we have Ded Moroz, who's the same thing, basically.
Lex Fridman (43:30.680)
MICHAEL It's like Android and iPhone. It's like a cheap version of Christmas.
Michael Malice (43:34.680)
TITO He's got this girl with him. She's like Snow White or whatever. And Russian kids,
Michael Malice (43:38.920)
they go to sleep on December 31st and they wake up January, they have a present under their pillow.
Lex Fridman (43:43.000)
And I remember as a kid, this happened once and it just blew my mind. You know what I mean?
Michael Malice (43:47.800)
It's just like, I went to bed, my dad's like, oh, you know, you're going to have,
Michael Malice (43:51.400)
Ded Moroz is going to bring you a present if you've been a good kid. I'm like, I think I was
Lex Fridman (43:54.680)
a good kid. But you don't even remember a year of your life when you're four.
Michael Malice (43:58.200)
MICHAEL You remember those moments.
Michael Malice (44:00.440)
TITO Yeah. And then I woke up and there was a present under my pillow and it just blew my mind.
Lex Fridman (44:05.480)
And that building is still there, 1461 Sherwood Parkway in Brooklyn. And it's just also funny,
Michael Malice (44:13.400)
like, what I really like about kids, you know, being an uncle now is kid logic, because they have
Michael Malice (44:20.280)
very little data, but they're using logic to make sense of it. And sometimes it gives them the
Michael Malice (44:25.960)
completely wrong conclusions for the completely right reasons. I remember, you know, my bedroom
Michael Malice (44:32.840)
as a kid was right off the kitchen and I'd be scared of the dark a little bit. So they'd leave
Michael Malice (44:37.880)
the light on the kitchen while I went to sleep. And at the same time, my parents had told me,
Lex Fridman (44:43.560)
you don't leave the lights on the house. It costs money, it wastes electricity. Right?
Lex Fridman (44:47.240)
So I would be worried because I'm like, oh, my God, my parents leave the lights on the kitchen
Michael Malice (44:51.720)
all night and now it's costing them so much money. Not realizing that, you know, five minutes after
Michael Malice (44:57.160)
I'm out, obviously they're turning the lights off. But like in my kid logic, this was a concern of
Michael Malice (45:00.840)
mine. Yeah. And memories work that same way. I have a collection of memories that are stitched
Michael Malice (45:07.160)
together logically somehow, but they also don't really make sense. There's a few defining things.
Lex Fridman (45:12.520)
So I grew up in Russia and experienced a lot of New Year's in Russia. There's a lot of incredible
Michael Malice (45:21.480)
things about that tradition that just warms my heart. So one, as a kid, you mentioned these kind
Michael Malice (45:27.560)
of stories. That's the one night of the year that kids are allowed to be adults in the following
Lex Fridman (45:34.040)
way. Like in kid logic, you're allowed to stay up all night. Oh, yeah. Okay.
Michael Malice (45:39.800)
That was as late as you want, which actually ends up being, you're not used to it.
Michael Malice (45:45.000)
Right, you're out. You crash. But no, you get to, you know, two, three, four at night,
Michael Malice (45:50.360)
you stay up and what you get to witness is almost like Alice in Wonderland goes into this world.
Michael Malice (45:55.800)
Yeah. You get to witness what is the adult world really like. Now, obviously it's not an actual
Michael Malice (46:01.480)
adult world. A lot of drinking and fighting. A merriment, like laughing, fighting, arguing,
Lex Fridman (46:07.960)
but also like in our case, like singing and like, yeah, arguing, like philosophical stuff,
Lex Fridman (46:15.960)
but also like, if I may, how would I describe it? This is also probably a little bit of Russian
Michael Malice (46:23.800)
culture, but like flirtation in all of its forms, meaning like men and women just being like,
Michael Malice (46:29.960)
cause they dress up. Yeah, yeah.
Michael Malice (46:31.400)
It's like, it's joy. It's like you get to show off like dresses, whatever you got,
Michael Malice (46:37.640)
you show it off. This is fun. And then men too, just like friends laughing, like arguing,
Michael Malice (46:45.320)
just showing off the best they got with delicious food. Obviously that there's a Thanksgiving
Michael Malice (46:50.040)
element there where there's just so many, just you bring out all the traditional stuff.
Michael Malice (46:56.760)
The, yes, salad, just everything, just the full thing with the desserts and obviously the vodka,
Michael Malice (47:03.240)
a lot of vodka. And at the time, so this is the Soviet Union, like the biggest stuff,
Lex Fridman (47:10.600)
and this is so sad that these are the things that I remember is like Coca Cola.
Michael Malice (47:15.800)
Oh yeah.
Michael Malice (47:16.600)
Like American, like that, I would probably kill somebody for a Dr. Pepper. It's so fascinating
Michael Malice (47:23.560)
that you take it for granted, sort of the results of capitalist society, the material things that
Michael Malice (47:31.560)
are created, but that was the ultimate happiness is to experience this new thing, sugar. I don't
Michael Malice (47:40.600)
know. Under scarcity you just love it.
Michael Malice (47:43.160)
There's like communist Coca Cola in Czech Republic. So basically they tried to rip off Coke
Lex Fridman (47:49.400)
and it's just like, they just threw whatever they could together and it was a very poor knockoff,
Michael Malice (47:55.400)
as you can imagine. I forget what it's called and all the Czech people right now are getting very
Michael Malice (47:58.760)
angry at me because I can't think of it, but they have it now and the slogan is good or weird.
Lex Fridman (48:05.560)
So it's like this, so they kind of reclaimed this kind of hipster soda.
Michael Malice (48:09.240)
Oh, that's awesome. It's almost like a parody.
Lex Fridman (48:11.320)
That's right. Yeah.
Lex Fridman (48:12.360)
But I think the thing I really remember is the camaraderie, like the love for each other
Lex Fridman (48:21.240)
and neighbors too. Like you and I are neighbors now. We don't see each other that often.
Michael Malice (48:28.520)
I hope that changes, but a lot of it is also me. I'm just a deep introvert.
Lex Fridman (48:33.160)
You're also the hardest working person I know.
Michael Malice (48:35.320)
Yeah. So it's time, but it's not like I'll go in the middle of the night at like 4 AM
Lex Fridman (48:42.360)
and go to 7 11 and just sit there sipping a Slurpee for an hour thinking about life.
Lex Fridman (48:48.840)
So it's not like I'm always working. Yeah, I don't know. What I mean is you get to meet your
Michael Malice (48:54.440)
neighbors and you get to experience their highs and their lows and you get to bitch about life,
Michael Malice (49:00.920)
about government, about corruption, about the unfairness of life together.
Michael Malice (49:05.400)
Well, it's also I think what people don't appreciate as Americans is it's very rare
Michael Malice (49:09.880)
in Russia to have a safe space. Yeah.
Lex Fridman (49:12.360)
So you know that January 1st, no one's going to snitch on you. They're not going to be informants
Michael Malice (49:19.160)
probably. So you can vent and that's the thing with people in totalitarian countries. You have
Michael Malice (49:25.720)
to have the public facing persona and then behind closed doors is very different.
Michael Malice (49:29.560)
It all comes out. And I also remember the arguments and I've been going on Clubhouse
Michael Malice (49:35.560)
recently into Russian rooms just to practice Russian. And it's so beautiful to watch. I mean,
Michael Malice (49:44.360)
Clubhouse is a very specific collection of Russian people. Maybe it's a little bit political
Lex Fridman (49:50.760)
and they're a little bit older. And it's interesting to watch how much they love to
Michael Malice (49:57.080)
argue. They love to argue. And so it would be literally, you could think of it as a
Lex Fridman (50:04.600)
nonlinear dynamical system, okay, from an engineering perspective.
Michael Malice (50:10.200)
Whenever any positive topic comes up, you could feel the skepticism and then wait a minute,
Michael Malice (50:16.040)
this is not good. And they'll start perturbing it until they'll find some way to say, come on now,
Michael Malice (50:25.640)
that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And then it goes back into argument. It's so fun to watch
Michael Malice (50:30.200)
because in one sense, you could see it as negative. In another, you could see it as free to express
Michael Malice (50:36.760)
yourself because it feels like you can solve a lot of problems by allowing yourself to just
Lex Fridman (50:44.200)
be emotional, both emotional and say hard truth and all those kinds of things
Michael Malice (50:49.320)
without patting yourself on the back about it. But also it just sort of those Russian rooms
Michael Malice (50:59.000)
make me realize how constrained American speech is, how careful people are in the way they express
Michael Malice (51:04.520)
it. Even the Michael Malice's in the world, you're constantly being nuanced. There they just say
Michael Malice (51:12.040)
crazy shit and then they correct themselves and make fun of themselves and they completely
Michael Malice (51:17.000)
shift opinions a minute later. And it's chaos. I mean, it's beautiful. So I love that that
Michael Malice (51:24.280)
culture is, it's funny given the current regime in Russia, like how that's coupled with how people
Michael Malice (51:31.160)
are talking and yeah, I don't know. And I have those memories of childhood of friends that I
Michael Malice (51:38.520)
had of just having that true freedom of talking. And somehow that leads to deep bonds together.
Michael Malice (51:44.520)
When the life, when you're poor, when life has a lot of elements that are unfair,
Michael Malice (51:51.960)
when the government is corrupt, there's sort of, it's just, especially in the Soviet Union,
Michael Malice (51:56.760)
there's uncertainty about the future. All of it, you just get closer together. Like penguins
Michael Malice (52:01.480)
huddling together in the cold, like that March of the Penguins movie. I don't know. The friends
Michael Malice (52:07.320)
I've gotten there, like I get emotional every time I kind of think about those friends because
Michael Malice (52:16.680)
it was so close. That friendship was so fucking close. But I just really hate the Russian cynicism.
Michael Malice (52:22.520)
No, I know you do. And I actually disagree with you about it. You see it as cynicism. I see it as
Michael Malice (52:29.400)
waves on top of the water, like surface cynicism and the depths as I see the beauty of the Russian
Michael Malice (52:35.240)
soul. So yes, that cynicism can negatively affect a lot of people. I think you've talked about,
Michael Malice (52:42.040)
like as a parent, being cynical about the world and then you have dire negative consequences on
Michael Malice (52:50.040)
your children. They become cynical. They don't ever take big risks, they take on bold things.
Lex Fridman (52:54.840)
And I have those arguments because the cynicism is exhausting. It's destructive. It's anti
Michael Malice (53:00.680)
creative. But so in their perspective is, this is what the Russian folks would say, well, yes,
Lex Fridman (53:06.680)
that's our role. Like being cynical is being reasonable about the world.
Lex Fridman (53:12.280)
But it's not. It's completely unreasonable. It's a complete lie.
Michael Malice (53:16.040)
I know. But their argument is, yes, but we're giving you this force and it's your job to resist
Michael Malice (53:22.440)
against it. So it's a test. I love the idea that if you're going to be creative and innovative,
Lex Fridman (53:28.760)
you don't have enough up against you. Yeah, exactly. This is exactly it.
Michael Malice (53:32.520)
It's not hard enough already that I want to be an author. Now you got to be like, well,
Michael Malice (53:35.960)
let me just put some fire ants on top of it. So I just want to separate, I agree with you that the
Michael Malice (53:42.200)
cynicism is bad and destructive, but the idea that life is suffering and thinking from that
Michael Malice (53:51.800)
as a first principle, I think there's a lot of beauty to be discovered through that.
Lex Fridman (53:56.120)
So there's a cynicism and then there's a horrible message.
Lex Fridman (54:02.200)
Life is suffering?
Michael Malice (54:05.000)
Well, yeah. I mean, Camus. Camus doesn't think that.
Lex Fridman (54:11.000)
Now we're going into definitions of suffering then because absurd.
Michael Malice (54:17.400)
Life is absurd and life is suffering are not even close to the same concept.
Lex Fridman (54:20.840)
Well, then you're just defining the terms differently.
Michael Malice (54:22.920)
Well, that's because they're different terms.
Lex Fridman (54:24.200)
Well, so is love and beauty, but let's define terms.
Michael Malice (54:28.280)
You're selling if your baby's in the crib, like with a fever and you're like,
Lex Fridman (54:31.240)
oh, that's absurd. No, it's the kids suffering. It's not the same.
Lex Fridman (54:34.600)
So yes, starvation, you've been for the white pill researching a lot of actual
Lex Fridman (54:39.320)
specifically defined suffering.
Michael Malice (54:41.560)
Sure. But also a lot of wonderful things.
Michael Malice (54:45.320)
Right. Yeah. But the word suffering can encompass more than just specifically starving.
Lex Fridman (54:51.960)
And it can encompass like a lot of the philosophers talk about it.
Lex Fridman (54:58.200)
It encompass like philosophical suffering.
Michael Malice (55:00.040)
The fact that if you're not careful, life can appear meaningless.
Lex Fridman (55:05.560)
You can fall into a nihilistic view.
Michael Malice (55:09.320)
It's difficult to have the responsibility of freedom to act in this world because you
Lex Fridman (55:13.880)
can fuck up in so many different ways.
Lex Fridman (55:15.800)
And then life is seemingly unfair in the sense that good things happen for no apparent reason
Lex Fridman (55:25.320)
and terrible things happen for no apparent reason.
Lex Fridman (55:27.960)
Like, you know, it's the old religious question of why does evil happen in the world?
Lex Fridman (55:33.560)
Why do terrible things happen in the world?
Lex Fridman (55:35.000)
There's this book called Six Word Memoirs, right?
Lex Fridman (55:37.400)
Where all these different personalities.
Michael Malice (55:39.320)
Those are awesome.
Lex Fridman (55:40.200)
Were you in it?
Michael Malice (55:41.000)
No.
Lex Fridman (55:41.480)
I'm in it with, so you had to basically write your autobiography in six words.
Michael Malice (55:45.080)
Six words.
Lex Fridman (55:45.640)
And mine was good things happen to bad people.
Michael Malice (55:49.720)
You see, there you go.
Lex Fridman (55:50.600)
There's humor.
Michael Malice (55:51.400)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (55:51.640)
That's your way of dealing with the suffering.
Lex Fridman (55:53.240)
But I don't think life is inherent.
Lex Fridman (55:54.520)
If life was suffering, we wouldn't be able to have happiness.
Michael Malice (55:58.360)
No.
Lex Fridman (55:58.760)
Out of suffering, happiness is born.
Lex Fridman (56:01.320)
So like, it's the ups and downs of life.
Lex Fridman (56:03.720)
And what it means like...
Michael Malice (56:05.240)
I don't agree at all that you need to suffer in order to be happy.
Lex Fridman (56:11.480)
I agree you have to work hard, but that's not the same thing.
Michael Malice (56:14.360)
Yeah, all right.
Lex Fridman (56:15.160)
So the way I'm using suffering, and I think a lot of them use suffering,
Michael Malice (56:17.960)
is the way you use like gravity.
Lex Fridman (56:20.520)
So in order for the roller coaster to work, you need gravity.
Michael Malice (56:23.880)
There needs to be a force that bring you down.
Lex Fridman (56:26.280)
Sure.
Michael Malice (56:26.680)
In that same way, there's like, you have to resist the natural pull of nature
Lex Fridman (56:34.440)
that wants to destroy you.
Michael Malice (56:37.320)
No, nature wants you to...
Michael Malice (56:41.080)
Nature isn't different, but we have the capacity because we're blessed with minds
Lex Fridman (56:47.320)
and we're blessed with friends.
Lex Fridman (56:48.760)
Yeah, to transcend nature.
Michael Malice (56:50.680)
Yeah, I know, but I think it's a word that captures something about life
Lex Fridman (56:58.520)
that there's no reason to it, that is absurd.
Michael Malice (57:01.240)
I think to me, oftentimes the way I think about the word suffering
Lex Fridman (57:04.760)
is synonymous with absurdity.
Michael Malice (57:07.240)
This is not suffering, but this is absurd.
Lex Fridman (57:11.720)
I just noticed there's a box with a big bow on it next to you.
Lex Fridman (57:16.280)
What's in the box, Michael?
Lex Fridman (57:17.800)
It's your present.
Lex Fridman (57:18.760)
So it's your present for New Year's.
Lex Fridman (57:20.200)
Can we open it?
Michael Malice (57:21.560)
Yeah, sure.
Lex Fridman (57:24.200)
What's in the box?
Lex Fridman (57:25.720)
And you brought up suffering.
Lex Fridman (57:27.320)
This is going to be very unpleasant.
Michael Malice (57:28.680)
Here you go.
Lex Fridman (57:30.760)
I packed it myself.
Michael Malice (57:33.000)
Yeah, there's a whole process in there.
Lex Fridman (57:34.680)
So there's three presents in there.
Michael Malice (57:38.760)
Lex, I'll read the card first.
Lex Fridman (57:41.400)
Okay.
Michael Malice (57:46.840)
Something about opening presents, like tearing stuff, makes me feel like,
Lex Fridman (57:52.200)
because like I just tore the sheet of paper, so it'll never be the same again.
Michael Malice (57:57.160)
It's entropy.
Lex Fridman (57:58.040)
It's entropy.
Michael Malice (57:58.840)
Time is...
Lex Fridman (57:59.800)
You've got a powerful voice.
Michael Malice (58:01.400)
You've got a powerful voice to Lex.
Lex Fridman (58:06.920)
Thank you.
Michael Malice (58:07.800)
Maybe I should read the other card first.
Lex Fridman (58:10.040)
You've got a powerful voice.
Michael Malice (58:11.320)
Listening to what you have to say always puts me in a hopeful place.
Lex Fridman (58:14.840)
I feel like this is building up to something.
Michael Malice (58:17.080)
You show me how change can happen when you face the world with pride, confidence,
Lex Fridman (58:21.960)
and a voice that can't be silenced.
Michael Malice (58:24.120)
Keep speaking up.
Lex Fridman (58:25.400)
The world is listening.
Michael Malice (58:27.160)
Yeah, there's no cynicism in this card.
Lex Fridman (58:34.200)
No, this is about...
Michael Malice (58:34.920)
This is New Year's.
Lex Fridman (58:35.720)
This is all about hope and joy.
Michael Malice (58:37.400)
Love.
Lex Fridman (58:38.600)
To Lex.
Michael Malice (58:39.160)
I'm seeing the binary.
Lex Fridman (58:40.440)
To Lex, thank you for setting the path for me to move to Austin.
Michael Malice (58:45.160)
0 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 1.
Lex Fridman (58:57.320)
Michael Malice.
Michael Malice (58:58.040)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (59:00.360)
Brings tears to my eyes.
Michael Malice (59:02.360)
Thank you, brother.
Lex Fridman (59:03.320)
My pleasure.
Michael Malice (59:05.960)
Let's get to the present.
Lex Fridman (59:09.480)
Okay.
Michael Malice (59:11.480)
It's a PC box.
Lex Fridman (59:12.600)
This is very promising.
Michael Malice (59:15.080)
It better not be sex toys.
Lex Fridman (59:16.280)
I swear to God.
Michael Malice (59:17.000)
There's nothing inappropriate at all.
Lex Fridman (59:20.280)
Why would it?
Lex Fridman (59:21.560)
Why would sex toys be inappropriate?
Lex Fridman (59:23.160)
That's sex positive.
Michael Malice (59:24.680)
Because you're a virgin.
Lex Fridman (59:29.320)
You gotta bring a knife to a party.
Lex Fridman (59:35.080)
How clever is it to put it in a PC box?
Lex Fridman (59:37.400)
Well, I had it.
Michael Malice (59:37.880)
I just got a new PC.
Lex Fridman (59:40.360)
Okay.
Michael Malice (59:40.860)
Get this also canned.
Lex Fridman (59:41.880)
Get this also canned.
Michael Malice (59:43.320)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (59:43.820)
Open the can first.
Michael Malice (59:45.080)
Open the can.
Lex Fridman (59:49.560)
Do you wrap this yourself?
Michael Malice (59:56.200)
That scared the shit out of me.
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