Mark Normand: Comedy!
音乐与艺术心理与人性生物与进化技术与编程政治与社会
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🎙️ 完整对话（2921 条）
Lex Fridman (00:00.000)
The following is a conversation with Mark Normand,
以下是与马克·诺曼德的对话，
Lex Fridman (00:02.700)
a New York comedian who has a way with words
一位善于言辞的纽约喜剧演员
Lex Fridman (00:05.320)
that is often both dark and hilarious.
这通常既黑暗又搞笑。
Lex Fridman (00:08.400)
Let there be a warning, dear friends,
亲爱的朋友们，请注意，
Lex Fridman (00:10.400)
to proceed with caution and to wear protection.
谨慎行事并穿戴防护用品。
Mark Normand (00:13.540)
You may, in fact, need it.
事实上，您可能需要它。
Lex Fridman (00:16.160)
He has a special on his YouTube called Out to Lunch
他的 YouTube 上有一个特别节目，名为“出去吃午饭”
Lex Fridman (00:19.360)
and a new special on Netflix
以及 Netflix 的新特别节目
Lex Fridman (00:21.160)
as part of the standup season three series
作为单口喜剧第三季的一部分
Mark Normand (00:23.880)
I recommend you watch.
我建议你观看。
Lex Fridman (00:26.040)
This is the Lex Friedman podcast.
这是莱克斯·弗里德曼的播客。
Mark Normand (00:28.160)
To support it, please check out our sponsors
为了支持它，请查看我们的赞助商
Lex Fridman (00:30.320)
in the description.
在描述中。
Lex Fridman (00:31.480)
And now, here's my conversation with Mark Normand.
现在，这是我与马克·诺曼德的对话。
Lex Fridman (00:36.400)
I asked Tim Dillon about Bukowski first,
我首先向蒂姆·狄龙询问了布考斯基的情况，
Lex Fridman (00:38.480)
so let me continue on that tradition
所以让我继续这个传统
Lex Fridman (00:40.320)
and ask you about something
并向你询问某事
Mark Normand (00:42.160)
that Charles Bukowski said about love.
查尔斯·布考斯基（Charles Bukowski）谈到爱情时说的。
Lex Fridman (00:44.600)
Wait, are we rolling?
等等，我们在滚动吗？
Mark Normand (00:46.080)
Yes. Oh, geez.
是的。哦，天啊。
Lex Fridman (00:47.160)
No hello, no nothing.
Mark Normand (00:48.440)
Nope. I thought I was robotic.
Lex Fridman (00:51.600)
Bukowski said, love is a fog that burns away
Mark Normand (00:54.840)
with the first daylight of reality.
Lex Fridman (00:57.160)
So Mark Normand, let me first ask you about love.
Lex Fridman (01:01.680)
What are your thoughts about love?
Lex Fridman (01:02.860)
You talk about your relationships quite a bit.
Lex Fridman (01:05.300)
Do you think love can last?
Lex Fridman (01:07.640)
I do, but I think it's work.
Mark Normand (01:10.760)
Everybody wants love to be this prepackaged,
Lex Fridman (01:13.520)
perfect euphoric thing, but you gotta,
Lex Fridman (01:18.040)
it's like a good body, you know?
Lex Fridman (01:20.160)
We're all born with a good body,
Lex Fridman (01:21.620)
but you gotta keep it in shape.
Lex Fridman (01:22.960)
And it's the same with a loving relationship.
Mark Normand (01:25.840)
I think you.
Lex Fridman (01:27.360)
Nobody wants to do the work, that's the problem.
Mark Normand (01:30.200)
You talked about, I think you told a story
Lex Fridman (01:32.440)
about being unfaithful to a previous girlfriend
Mark Normand (01:35.280)
or something like that.
Lex Fridman (01:36.680)
I think the story goes that you were like drifting apart.
Lex Fridman (01:41.360)
Who were you talking to?
Lex Fridman (01:42.240)
Burt Kreischer maybe or something like that?
Mark Normand (01:44.120)
Oh yeah, we were high school sweethearts,
Lex Fridman (01:46.040)
dated for like 12 years and then.
Lex Fridman (01:48.720)
So that wasn't love anymore.
Lex Fridman (01:50.040)
That was more like relationship, that was like.
Mark Normand (01:51.600)
It was comfort, it was routine.
Lex Fridman (01:53.320)
And we just slipped into that married life autopilot world.
Lex Fridman (01:57.960)
And I tried to break up, I think, and it didn't take.
Lex Fridman (02:03.040)
It was one of those things.
Mark Normand (02:04.400)
Our lives are just so baked in.
Lex Fridman (02:07.480)
And then I think I cheated and she caught me
Lex Fridman (02:10.680)
and it was ugly.
Lex Fridman (02:11.640)
And then we went to therapy to try to work it out,
Lex Fridman (02:13.620)
but it's much like a car that gets into a wreck.
Lex Fridman (02:16.440)
The door just never closed the same.
Lex Fridman (02:18.760)
You know what I mean?
Lex Fridman (02:19.680)
Yeah, so what are your thoughts about then commitment
Lex Fridman (02:23.480)
like outside of love marriage?
Lex Fridman (02:25.720)
I think it's an antiquated idea.
Mark Normand (02:27.480)
I think it's kind of silly and unrealistic.
Lex Fridman (02:30.680)
And I think we're coming out of that
Mark Normand (02:31.880)
as we get all polyamorous and non binary
Lex Fridman (02:34.600)
and queefy and all this stuff.
Mark Normand (02:36.040)
I think we're slowly moving away from that.
Lex Fridman (02:38.660)
But I think a lot of the ladies,
Mark Normand (02:41.240)
more majority women like marriage, like the idea of it.
Lex Fridman (02:45.400)
Like I'm a fiance now or whatever you call it.
Mark Normand (02:48.640)
I'm engaged.
Lex Fridman (02:49.840)
And I mean, she is just woo wee going hog wild.
Mark Normand (02:54.600)
She's loving it.
Lex Fridman (02:55.440)
She's got the dress thing, pick a venue flower
Lex Fridman (02:57.720)
and she's deep in whereas I feel guilty
Lex Fridman (03:00.600)
because I'm just like, ah, geez.
Lex Fridman (03:04.600)
Is it planned already?
Lex Fridman (03:05.440)
When's the wedding?
Mark Normand (03:06.280)
You see Squid Game, I'm just living life.
Lex Fridman (03:08.920)
Yeah, it's planned.
Mark Normand (03:11.580)
It's in New Orleans.
Lex Fridman (03:12.420)
I'm from there and it's next year.
Lex Fridman (03:15.960)
Are you married?
Lex Fridman (03:16.880)
No, single.
Lex Fridman (03:17.760)
Virgin?
Lex Fridman (03:19.320)
Of course, yeah.
Mark Normand (03:20.160)
I can't imagine.
Lex Fridman (03:20.980)
I bet you'd be great in bed.
Mark Normand (03:21.880)
You're ripped.
Lex Fridman (03:23.080)
Best hairline in podcasting.
Mark Normand (03:25.520)
Yeah, I don't know.
Lex Fridman (03:26.360)
I haven't tried yet.
Lex Fridman (03:27.180)
So we'll have to see.
Lex Fridman (03:28.020)
All right, well, let me know.
Lex Fridman (03:28.860)
Pretty big hog on you?
Lex Fridman (03:30.840)
Yeah, I could see you packing a crazy, crazy tool downtown.
Lex Fridman (03:36.760)
That matters to girls?
Lex Fridman (03:38.280)
Apparently, yeah, that's all I hear about.
Mark Normand (03:41.320)
Okay, New Orleans.
Lex Fridman (03:42.700)
You grew up in New Orleans?
Mark Normand (03:43.780)
Yeah, born and raised.
Lex Fridman (03:46.200)
Treme outside the French Quarter.
Lex Fridman (03:47.640)
Have you ever been?
Lex Fridman (03:48.480)
Yeah, don't remember it.
Lex Fridman (03:50.560)
Oh, you drink?
Lex Fridman (03:51.680)
Yeah, I drink.
Mark Normand (03:52.500)
Of course I drink.
Lex Fridman (03:53.340)
I don't know, I can't tell if you have fun.
Mark Normand (03:54.960)
No, not really.
Lex Fridman (03:56.000)
But in Russia, of course I drink vodka,
Mark Normand (03:58.480)
all that kind of stuff.
Lex Fridman (03:59.320)
Oh, right, in Russia.
Mark Normand (04:00.140)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (04:00.980)
Yes.
Mark Normand (04:01.800)
Gotta know.
Lex Fridman (04:02.640)
Vodka.
Mark Normand (04:03.480)
Beer was just labeled an alcoholic beverage in 2011.
Lex Fridman (04:05.480)
Fun fact.
Lex Fridman (04:06.440)
What do you mean?
Lex Fridman (04:07.280)
In Russia.
Mark Normand (04:08.440)
It was just drinks.
Lex Fridman (04:09.320)
It was just like apple juice before.
Mark Normand (04:10.880)
It finally got declared legally as an alcoholic beverage.
Lex Fridman (04:14.140)
Which means you can regulate it, that kind of thing.
Mark Normand (04:18.420)
I guess so.
Lex Fridman (04:19.520)
Yeah.
Mark Normand (04:20.360)
See, that's where your brain goes.
Lex Fridman (04:21.200)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mark Normand (04:22.020)
I just go, oh, these fucking Ruskies are.
Lex Fridman (04:22.860)
I didn't even know there was rules about drinking.
Mark Normand (04:25.540)
This is good, I'm learning about Russia from you.
Lex Fridman (04:27.620)
So what's the difficult memory, experience from childhood
Lex Fridman (04:31.940)
in New Orleans that made you the man you are today?
Lex Fridman (04:38.580)
I don't know if it made me the man,
Lex Fridman (04:39.820)
but jeez, I had a lot of scuffles in the neighborhood.
Lex Fridman (04:45.900)
I was the white kid in the neighborhood.
Lex Fridman (04:47.440)
So I was automatically the odd man out, the minority,
Lex Fridman (04:51.660)
the weirdo, the dork, the dweeb, the honky.
Lex Fridman (04:54.860)
So just a lot of memories of like getting slapped
Lex Fridman (04:58.860)
in the face by guys and just having to take it
Mark Normand (05:01.340)
because there's like five guys there.
Lex Fridman (05:02.860)
And they'd be like, oh, look, you didn't even fight back.
Lex Fridman (05:04.900)
And you're like, what am I going to do?
Lex Fridman (05:06.260)
Hit you and then get beat up by these guys?
Lex Fridman (05:07.920)
So a lot of that stuff was a big bummer growing up.
Lex Fridman (05:12.220)
Got robbed all the time, lost a lot of bicycles,
Mark Normand (05:16.100)
had a bicycle taken from under me, that was pretty brutal.
Lex Fridman (05:19.440)
These kids pulled up, you know, they're like 17
Lex Fridman (05:22.380)
and I was 13 and I had a face paint on.
Lex Fridman (05:27.120)
Like I had a, not black face, but I was at a summer camp
Lex Fridman (05:30.220)
and I had a rainbow face painted on me.
Lex Fridman (05:32.480)
We were helping kids that day.
Lex Fridman (05:34.080)
So I let them put paint on me.
Lex Fridman (05:36.480)
And so now I'm riding home.
Lex Fridman (05:38.040)
What a mark, what a goober I am.
Lex Fridman (05:40.980)
I'm riding home and these guys see me a mile away.
Mark Normand (05:43.020)
I'm a sitting duck and they go, we can take his bike.
Lex Fridman (05:44.900)
He's got a fucking rainbow on his cheek.
Lex Fridman (05:47.000)
So they just go, hey, you know, like cut in front of you.
Lex Fridman (05:50.700)
They go, let me try your bike.
Mark Normand (05:51.780)
I go, I'm good, I'm good.
Lex Fridman (05:53.140)
I knew what they wanted.
Lex Fridman (05:54.480)
And they go, let me try the bike.
Lex Fridman (05:56.260)
And then they just pushed me and took the bike.
Lex Fridman (05:58.420)
So stuff like that was really shaping the insecurity,
Lex Fridman (06:02.180)
the self worth.
Mark Normand (06:04.000)
Did it, cause I've been mugged when I was younger too.
Lex Fridman (06:09.380)
Really?
Mark Normand (06:10.400)
Yeah, it changes your view of human nature a little bit.
Lex Fridman (06:13.660)
For sure.
Mark Normand (06:14.500)
You go, wow, I didn't know people could be this mean.
Lex Fridman (06:16.820)
This cool.
Mark Normand (06:17.880)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (06:18.720)
Inconsiderate.
Mark Normand (06:19.540)
I'm always worried about it.
Lex Fridman (06:20.380)
Did I fart too much?
Lex Fridman (06:21.380)
Am I annoying?
Lex Fridman (06:22.560)
Am I pissing this guy off?
Lex Fridman (06:23.820)
But what a way to live.
Lex Fridman (06:25.540)
Just, I want the bike, I'm taking it.
Mark Normand (06:28.340)
Fuck his feelings.
Lex Fridman (06:30.040)
For me, that quickly turned into realizing
Mark Normand (06:33.580)
that that's just a temporary phase that those folks are in.
Lex Fridman (06:36.660)
Like they have a capacity to be good.
Mark Normand (06:39.980)
Sure.
Lex Fridman (06:40.820)
For some reason, for me, that was a motivation to see,
Mark Normand (06:43.860)
can we discover, can we incentivize them
Lex Fridman (06:47.540)
to find like a better path in life?
Mark Normand (06:49.500)
Like I wasn't like all like, I don't know, Gandhi about it.
Lex Fridman (06:53.380)
Of course I was pissed and all those kinds of things,
Lex Fridman (06:55.540)
but I don't know, it seemed like just the kind of thing
Lex Fridman (07:01.640)
you might do when you're younger.
Mark Normand (07:03.420)
You hope.
Lex Fridman (07:04.260)
But this is adult crime, obviously.
Mark Normand (07:07.780)
Yeah, I know, but yeah, exactly.
Lex Fridman (07:09.340)
And then it solidifies and then you're beyond saving
Mark Normand (07:12.080)
at some point, but it's like, there's always,
Lex Fridman (07:14.820)
there's always an opportunity to make a better life
Mark Normand (07:19.980)
for yourself, to become a better version of yourself.
Lex Fridman (07:22.940)
Yeah, and I remember coming home crying with no bike
Lex Fridman (07:25.620)
and my mom, my parents are like liberal to a fault.
Lex Fridman (07:29.780)
You know, where they were like, oh, well they need it.
Mark Normand (07:31.820)
They're poor kids in the neighborhood.
Lex Fridman (07:33.620)
And you're like, all right, but I also like have a bicycle
Mark Normand (07:36.620)
that I ride around, you know, and I also like to live
Lex Fridman (07:39.100)
in an area that's not just, you know, riddled with theft
Lex Fridman (07:42.900)
and vandalism, but they were just like, oh, they need it.
Lex Fridman (07:45.780)
And then it was a moot point, we just moved on.
Lex Fridman (07:48.120)
So I remember very young being like, all right,
Lex Fridman (07:49.880)
I gotta figure my shit out.
Mark Normand (07:53.380)
Okay, so you said you were beat up quite a bit,
Lex Fridman (07:56.500)
like bullying and stuff.
Mark Normand (07:57.580)
Pushed around, I was never hospitalized or anything,
Lex Fridman (07:59.980)
but you know, you get a black guy here and there
Lex Fridman (08:02.380)
and a bloody nose, stuff like that.
Lex Fridman (08:04.180)
And it was just the outnumbered thing.
Mark Normand (08:05.900)
The violence didn't really bother me
Lex Fridman (08:08.180)
because you're just kids, you're boys.
Lex Fridman (08:10.300)
But it was the predatory, let's get him.
Lex Fridman (08:14.140)
You know, we can take him down.
Mark Normand (08:15.980)
He's, you know, he's an easy target.
Lex Fridman (08:17.860)
That's what kills you, the mental part.
Mark Normand (08:22.340)
Yeah, you know, until you actually said I didn't realize,
Lex Fridman (08:25.260)
I've been in, what do you call them, scuffles.
Lex Fridman (08:28.380)
And there was just one that stands out to me where, yeah.
Lex Fridman (08:32.220)
Let's hear it, Faddy, bring it on.
Lex Fridman (08:34.660)
And you do jujitsu and all that stuff, right?
Lex Fridman (08:36.980)
Yeah, I can see the guns through the suit,
Mark Normand (08:38.980)
you're like John Wick.
Lex Fridman (08:40.100)
All right, well, I used to have,
Mark Normand (08:42.680)
now you're gonna start making fun of me,
Lex Fridman (08:43.940)
I used to have long hair for like a couple of years.
Mark Normand (08:46.340)
I was in a band playing music and stuff like that.
Lex Fridman (08:48.620)
And there was, like most of the fights I've been in
Mark Normand (08:51.860)
were basically one on one, maybe a little bit like,
Lex Fridman (08:54.980)
a little extra stuff, but not outnumbered.
Lex Fridman (08:58.780)
And this one particular time,
Lex Fridman (09:01.660)
I've learned a lot of lessons,
Lex Fridman (09:02.940)
but one of them was, there was a fight started
Lex Fridman (09:06.020)
between me and this other person.
Lex Fridman (09:08.180)
And then his buddies, I guess, were there.
Lex Fridman (09:12.340)
And they, as opposed to like breaking it up
Mark Normand (09:13.980)
or letting it happen, one of them grabbed my hair.
Lex Fridman (09:19.340)
It's the first time anybody grabbed,
Mark Normand (09:20.940)
like used my hair in a fight,
Lex Fridman (09:22.940)
which I haven't since then realized that that's actually
Mark Normand (09:25.340)
a really powerful grip and a powerful weapon.
Lex Fridman (09:27.660)
Oh, very vulnerable of you.
Lex Fridman (09:29.140)
And then my head got pulled back
Lex Fridman (09:31.560)
and they pulled me down to the ground.
Mark Normand (09:32.640)
Like I couldn't do anything, it was so,
Lex Fridman (09:34.420)
I remember being exceptionally frustrated.
Mark Normand (09:36.940)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (09:37.780)
That was the feeling like, I can't do anything here.
Mark Normand (09:40.460)
I'm like trapped.
Lex Fridman (09:42.340)
And then they were just like kicking me and hitting me
Lex Fridman (09:44.780)
and stuff like that.
Lex Fridman (09:45.620)
And the outnumbered part of it,
Mark Normand (09:49.060)
because I always kind of remember the trapped part
Lex Fridman (09:51.440)
because I just hated from a fighting grappling perspective,
Lex Fridman (09:55.980)
how like, the feeling was this isn't fair.
Lex Fridman (09:58.700)
Yes, that's what it is.
Mark Normand (09:59.940)
It's a deep, deep unfairness that you just can't win.
Lex Fridman (10:04.160)
The mob wins.
Mark Normand (10:05.460)
Yeah, the mob wins.
Lex Fridman (10:06.780)
Scary stuff.
Lex Fridman (10:07.860)
But it makes a man out of you in a weird way
Lex Fridman (10:09.980)
that builds character, you realize life isn't fair early
Lex Fridman (10:12.340)
and you go on from there.
Lex Fridman (10:14.700)
So there's something there.
Lex Fridman (10:15.940)
And look at you today.
Lex Fridman (10:16.980)
They're probably eating out of a dumpster
Mark Normand (10:19.220)
at a Krispy Kreme and you're here,
Lex Fridman (10:21.100)
got eight podcasts, you're doing great,
Mark Normand (10:23.560)
talking to giant titans of the industry.
Lex Fridman (10:26.680)
No, I do remember returning home that night.
Mark Normand (10:29.520)
I mean that you said you were crying.
Lex Fridman (10:31.580)
That's really formative.
Mark Normand (10:33.140)
Like that's the point in which you get to decide
Lex Fridman (10:35.440)
what do I make of this moment?
Mark Normand (10:37.100)
I mean, especially when you're younger,
Lex Fridman (10:38.520)
maybe it's not presented to you that way,
Lex Fridman (10:40.780)
but like some of the greatest people in history
Lex Fridman (10:44.460)
were bullied in these kinds of ways.
Lex Fridman (10:47.220)
And they made something of themselves in this moment,
Lex Fridman (10:48.980)
like bullied by life in some kind of way.
Mark Normand (10:51.580)
It's like an opportunity for growth.
Lex Fridman (10:53.300)
It's weird, but like hardship even in small doses
Mark Normand (10:58.180)
is like an opportunity for growth.
Lex Fridman (11:00.120)
Totally, I mean, look at Richard Pryor.
Mark Normand (11:01.560)
They say he's labeled as the best comedian of all time.
Lex Fridman (11:03.620)
Grew up in a whorehouse,
Mark Normand (11:04.760)
watch his mom get plowed by these guys
Lex Fridman (11:07.220)
in the middle of Indiana, I wanna say.
Lex Fridman (11:10.920)
And just who had a harder life?
Lex Fridman (11:12.740)
He would suck dick for drugs,
Mark Normand (11:14.060)
all this stuff growing up, beat up.
Lex Fridman (11:17.380)
And then the weird thing is, oops, sorry,
Mark Normand (11:20.340)
that's my birth control alarm.
Lex Fridman (11:22.380)
And then the whole world is like trying
Mark Normand (11:24.460)
to get rid of bullying, but we still do bullying,
Lex Fridman (11:27.080)
but now it's accepted bullying.
Mark Normand (11:28.700)
It's very strange.
Lex Fridman (11:29.940)
So you're a proponent of beating kids up,
Lex Fridman (11:33.140)
is that what you're saying?
Lex Fridman (11:33.980)
Yes, and sex with them.
Mark Normand (11:35.540)
All right.
Lex Fridman (11:36.820)
But no, I just think it's part of life
Lex Fridman (11:40.600)
and it's horrible, it's like rain, you gotta have it.
Lex Fridman (11:43.100)
Look, a rainy day is a bummer, but you need it.
Lex Fridman (11:45.420)
And I think it's similar to that.
Lex Fridman (11:49.100)
What was your relationship like with your mom, your dad?
Lex Fridman (11:53.020)
What are some memorable moments with them?
Lex Fridman (11:54.900)
What did you learn from them?
Mark Normand (11:56.020)
Good parents, they're giving, thoughtful.
Lex Fridman (12:01.740)
A little out to lunch, they were workaholics,
Lex Fridman (12:05.140)
so it was hard to get a lot out of them.
Lex Fridman (12:08.600)
And my dad was kind of an angry dad.
Mark Normand (12:10.540)
I think he just had like a weird childhood
Lex Fridman (12:13.340)
and he's just trying to make it
Lex Fridman (12:14.460)
and he's trying to provide, but it's hard.
Lex Fridman (12:16.780)
And we live in this horrible neighborhood
Lex Fridman (12:18.780)
and we're getting robbed all the time.
Lex Fridman (12:22.260)
So life was kind of coming down on him all the time.
Lex Fridman (12:24.420)
So then he'll take it out on you or whoever, he would snap.
Lex Fridman (12:27.900)
But great parents, they cared, they put us first,
Lex Fridman (12:32.060)
but there wasn't a lot of, you ever go to a friend's house
Lex Fridman (12:36.940)
as a kid and there's like a picture of a ski trip
Lex Fridman (12:39.220)
and you're like, ski trip?
Lex Fridman (12:40.780)
What the hell is that about?
Mark Normand (12:42.620)
It wasn't a lot of that and smart, very smart people,
Lex Fridman (12:46.460)
but I don't know how well they were at socializing.
Lex Fridman (12:49.620)
So you never like bonded with them
Lex Fridman (12:51.220)
like on a deep human level?
Mark Normand (12:53.020)
Some bonding, but rarely deep.
Lex Fridman (12:54.580)
Yeah, it was just almost coworker.
Lex Fridman (12:57.300)
Hey, cold out, huh?
Lex Fridman (12:59.300)
What?
Lex Fridman (13:00.140)
It's cold out, huh?
Lex Fridman (13:01.300)
Oh yeah, like that kind of stuff.
Mark Normand (13:02.260)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (13:03.100)
Yeah, yeah, I got you.
Mark Normand (13:03.920)
Get there a little bit, but my parents are done.
Lex Fridman (13:06.340)
I hope they never saw this, but they would do a thing
Mark Normand (13:08.780)
where my dad especially would do a thing
Lex Fridman (13:10.740)
where he would, he knew how to cut you down
Mark Normand (13:13.340)
right to the bone and so after a while you're like,
Lex Fridman (13:15.940)
I'm not even gonna interact with this guy
Mark Normand (13:17.180)
because he can get you so well.
Lex Fridman (13:19.980)
One time we were at like a Thanksgiving,
Mark Normand (13:22.300)
some kind of family event and all the cousins are there
Lex Fridman (13:25.480)
and I remember I was holding court.
Mark Normand (13:26.820)
I was a young boy finding my comedic legs
Lex Fridman (13:30.240)
in this weird tumultuous sea we call a family
Lex Fridman (13:33.660)
and I was killing and my dad comes out and he goes,
Lex Fridman (13:38.040)
what are you holding court?
Lex Fridman (13:39.620)
And I was like, ah, and I felt like I was this big.
Lex Fridman (13:42.540)
I just whoo, shrunk down.
Mark Normand (13:44.140)
He just nailed it because in my head I'm like,
Lex Fridman (13:45.700)
I'm holding court, look at me, I got the whole room
Lex Fridman (13:47.680)
and he goes, what are you, what are you holding court here?
Lex Fridman (13:49.980)
And I'm like, who the hell do you think you are?
Lex Fridman (13:51.500)
And I was like, he's right, I shouldn't be holding court,
Lex Fridman (13:53.980)
who the fuck am I, I'm nobody.
Lex Fridman (13:55.380)
So stuff like that.
Lex Fridman (13:57.560)
Was he aware of that you think?
Mark Normand (13:58.700)
He wasn't, he wasn't, I don't think he was, but.
Lex Fridman (14:01.300)
Do you give parents a pass when they're unaware
Lex Fridman (14:06.340)
of the destructive, like is it better when they're unaware?
Lex Fridman (14:09.540)
Because it seems like that's the way.
Mark Normand (14:11.160)
That's true.
Lex Fridman (14:12.000)
That's the way parents often fail
Mark Normand (14:13.900)
is they're not intentionally malevolent,
Lex Fridman (14:18.260)
they're just like clueless.
Mark Normand (14:20.140)
Yeah, it's a bittersweet thing
Lex Fridman (14:22.780)
because you're like, well, okay, he's not malicious,
Mark Normand (14:24.360)
he's not trying to hurt me,
Lex Fridman (14:26.060)
but also he doesn't know he hurt me.
Mark Normand (14:29.940)
I don't know, it's tough
Lex Fridman (14:31.260)
because if he was trying to hurt you,
Mark Normand (14:33.660)
I guess that would be worse.
Lex Fridman (14:35.460)
So you're the fully baked Mark Norman cake at this point
Mark Normand (14:39.500)
Yeah, it's a shitty cake.
Lex Fridman (14:43.820)
Fruit salad.
Mark Normand (14:45.360)
You know, the sense of self worth you mentioned.
Lex Fridman (14:49.740)
I think in your comedy,
Mark Normand (14:50.980)
there's a sense like you hate yourself.
Lex Fridman (14:52.900)
You think?
Mark Normand (14:54.140)
I didn't know if that came through.
Lex Fridman (14:55.340)
Shit, I was trying to hide that part.
Mark Normand (14:57.380)
God damn it.
Lex Fridman (14:58.280)
I mean, when you like in the privacy of your own mind,
Lex Fridman (15:02.480)
are you able to love yourself or is it mostly self hate?
Lex Fridman (15:07.300)
Jeez, what happened to this podcast?
Mark Normand (15:09.020)
I didn't know I was on Dr. Phil.
Lex Fridman (15:11.100)
Dr. Phil.
Mark Normand (15:11.940)
I thought we were gonna talk about engineering
Lex Fridman (15:13.580)
and climate change and rockets.
Mark Normand (15:17.140)
We'll get there.
Lex Fridman (15:17.980)
Okay.
Mark Normand (15:18.800)
Starts with love, goes to rockets.
Lex Fridman (15:20.020)
All right, I like that.
Mark Normand (15:21.220)
I like that's a t shirt.
Lex Fridman (15:24.940)
I mean, like.
Lex Fridman (15:25.780)
What's the question?
Lex Fridman (15:26.600)
Sorry.
Lex Fridman (15:27.900)
Do I feel love?
Lex Fridman (15:29.100)
No, no, like.
Lex Fridman (15:29.940)
Do I love myself?
Lex Fridman (15:31.180)
Yeah, yeah, so are you like this engine
Mark Normand (15:36.060)
of being self critical
Lex Fridman (15:37.780)
of just being constantly anxious
Lex Fridman (15:40.700)
about how the world perceives you, these kinds of things?
Lex Fridman (15:43.940)
Is this something that you just go to for comedy
Lex Fridman (15:47.260)
or is this who you are as a human being?
Lex Fridman (15:50.180)
I think I don't wanna explore it.
Mark Normand (15:52.100)
I think I get around it.
Lex Fridman (15:54.140)
You know, I tap dance around it,
Lex Fridman (15:55.360)
but I get it out a little with my act maybe,
Lex Fridman (15:57.940)
because I can't do it.
Mark Normand (15:59.380)
I'm not doing it in real life.
Lex Fridman (16:00.580)
So I'll get out this no love, not loving myself.
Mark Normand (16:04.780)
I don't know who wants to love themself.
Lex Fridman (16:06.140)
Everybody always like you gotta love yourself.
Lex Fridman (16:07.500)
And then when you meet somebody who does love yourself,
Lex Fridman (16:09.060)
you're like, I fucking hate this guy.
Lex Fridman (16:11.300)
Don't you hate the guy who's upset?
Lex Fridman (16:12.660)
I'm great, I'm awesome.
Mark Normand (16:14.420)
Life is good.
Lex Fridman (16:15.260)
You're like, ah, this guy sucks.
Mark Normand (16:17.100)
I'd rather an insecure guy.
Lex Fridman (16:18.940)
So maybe I wanna stay insecure.
Mark Normand (16:20.180)
Maybe I don't wanna find this love for myself.
Lex Fridman (16:22.740)
Well, okay.
Lex Fridman (16:23.780)
So self love, like just appreciating who you are,
Lex Fridman (16:27.820)
or like appreciating the moment of being grateful
Mark Normand (16:30.060)
doesn't have to express itself
Lex Fridman (16:32.100)
by the guy saying I'm awesome.
Mark Normand (16:34.720)
True.
Lex Fridman (16:35.560)
It's more just like humility.
Mark Normand (16:36.580)
It's just like walking calmly through the world
Lex Fridman (16:38.420)
and just being grateful to be alive,
Mark Normand (16:39.860)
that kind of thing.
Lex Fridman (16:40.700)
That's good.
Lex Fridman (16:42.220)
And like, oh, being appreciative
Lex Fridman (16:43.700)
of all the accomplishments you've made so far.
Mark Normand (16:45.140)
I say all this because mostly I'm extremely self critical
Lex Fridman (16:49.180)
in everything I do.
Lex Fridman (16:50.420)
And so, and I kind of enjoy it.
Lex Fridman (16:54.180)
I think it's a nice little engine that it makes it fun.
Mark Normand (16:57.140)
It makes life fun,
Lex Fridman (16:57.980)
because it's like if you hate everything you do,
Mark Normand (17:01.980)
like you've done in the past,
Lex Fridman (17:04.180)
that gives you like, all right, we can do better.
Mark Normand (17:06.500)
Yes, but that's the key is making yourself critical.
Lex Fridman (17:09.500)
Always trying to get better.
Mark Normand (17:10.620)
I could change this, I could tweak this,
Lex Fridman (17:11.940)
I could improve this.
Mark Normand (17:13.280)
When you just go, I hate that I do this, I suck,
Lex Fridman (17:15.500)
you just shut down.
Lex Fridman (17:16.340)
So that's the key is always being productive
Lex Fridman (17:19.540)
with the criticism.
Mark Normand (17:21.380)
Yeah, and the basics of life,
Lex Fridman (17:22.700)
I'm just like grateful for it, to be alive.
Mark Normand (17:24.740)
That's nice to be coupled that with self criticism.
Lex Fridman (17:27.660)
Two legs, again, the hairline, the hog,
Mark Normand (17:30.460)
the muscles, the world.
Lex Fridman (17:32.980)
You got a good brain on you.
Mark Normand (17:34.220)
I mean, you're lucky.
Lex Fridman (17:35.740)
You're in the top,
Mark Normand (17:37.340)
most people are fat as shit at Burger King right now,
Lex Fridman (17:39.640)
hitting their kids.
Mark Normand (17:40.980)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (17:41.820)
You're in a Ramada hotel,
Mark Normand (17:43.860)
sitting with a low level comedian.
Lex Fridman (17:47.660)
For the record, I ate McDonald's last night.
Mark Normand (17:49.620)
Oh, all right, well, you're human.
Lex Fridman (17:52.180)
Well, just so you know, this is not me defending,
Mark Normand (17:54.580)
I'm not sponsored by McDonald's,
Lex Fridman (17:56.020)
but I mostly eat meat,
Lex Fridman (17:57.620)
and there's nothing wrong with the beef they have.
Lex Fridman (18:01.340)
It's actually one of the easiest ways late at night.
Mark Normand (18:04.020)
I think it's worse.
Lex Fridman (18:05.420)
I don't know if it's actually cow.
Mark Normand (18:07.020)
It's actually rats.
Lex Fridman (18:07.980)
Yeah, you're right.
Lex Fridman (18:09.140)
But hey, it's just meat.
Lex Fridman (18:10.500)
I'm a meat guy myself.
Mark Normand (18:12.940)
They say in 20 years, we're gonna look back
Lex Fridman (18:14.820)
and go, can you believe people ate meat?
Mark Normand (18:16.540)
It's gonna look like somebody like slavery.
Lex Fridman (18:18.540)
Yeah, there's some ethical,
Mark Normand (18:20.340)
difficult things with factory farming.
Lex Fridman (18:22.640)
Yeah, so let's ride it out now while we still got it.
Lex Fridman (18:26.140)
And now it's on record.
Lex Fridman (18:28.820)
Tom Waits says something about New York.
Lex Fridman (18:31.420)
You like Tom Waits?
Lex Fridman (18:32.300)
I think he's underrated.
Mark Normand (18:33.460)
I think he's got great,
Lex Fridman (18:34.860)
he's got a great, he's great at quips and quotes.
Mark Normand (18:38.020)
Check him out on YouTube.
Lex Fridman (18:39.300)
He's got some montages and super cuts
Mark Normand (18:41.820)
of him being hilarious.
Lex Fridman (18:43.460)
What does he say about,
Mark Normand (18:47.000)
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me
Lex Fridman (18:49.100)
than a frontal lobotomy.
Mark Normand (18:50.420)
That was the one.
Lex Fridman (18:51.420)
That was the one that sold me.
Mark Normand (18:52.240)
I was like, this guy's awesome.
Lex Fridman (18:53.540)
Yeah, but his music,
Mark Normand (18:54.860)
cause he's just a genius musician.
Lex Fridman (18:56.900)
Yeah.
Mark Normand (18:57.740)
Anyway, he was talking about New York.
Lex Fridman (18:59.740)
I was walking around, I'm in New York right now.
Mark Normand (19:01.940)
We're in New York right now.
Lex Fridman (19:03.380)
It's still a magical city to me.
Mark Normand (19:04.860)
A lot of people are quite cynical about it,
Lex Fridman (19:06.860)
about the state of things, but.
Mark Normand (19:08.220)
Go again.
Lex Fridman (19:09.060)
Not like Michael Malice, like a lot of friends of mine,
Mark Normand (19:13.220)
they're just a lot of folks in San Francisco and New York,
Lex Fridman (19:15.880)
there's something about the pandemic
Mark Normand (19:17.180)
where people have become quite cynical
Lex Fridman (19:19.540)
about the place they are and they try to escape.
Mark Normand (19:22.100)
It's interesting.
Lex Fridman (19:22.940)
I mean, they're asking some difficult questions
Mark Normand (19:24.580)
about what they are in life.
Lex Fridman (19:26.020)
They're having like a self imposed midlife crisis.
Mark Normand (19:29.100)
It's good, I think, for everybody to go through this process.
Lex Fridman (19:32.260)
But I think, I hope New York reemerges.
Mark Normand (19:35.540)
It will.
Lex Fridman (19:36.380)
As the flourishing place for the weirdos.
Mark Normand (19:37.900)
Anyway, Tom Waits said,
Lex Fridman (19:39.700)
New York, of course, is to be in endless surreal situations
Mark Normand (19:45.420)
where a $50,000 gun metal Mercedes
Lex Fridman (19:48.460)
pulls up in a puddle of blood
Lex Fridman (19:50.500)
and out steps a 25 carat blonde with a $2 wristwatch.
Lex Fridman (19:54.540)
Woo!
Lex Fridman (19:55.380)
And he goes, he keeps going on.
Lex Fridman (19:56.780)
So like, it's like a.
Mark Normand (19:58.700)
That's like bars, he's like a rapper.
Lex Fridman (1:00:01.260)
And then Ben Franklin's like, you know,
Mark Normand (1:00:03.740)
you don't really need the word hat.
Lex Fridman (1:00:05.360)
You can just put a picture of a hat.
Lex Fridman (1:00:07.080)
And he made a new sign, which is a picture of a hat
Lex Fridman (1:00:08.820)
and it like helped the business or something.
Mark Normand (1:00:10.420)
That's like some old wives tale or whatever.
Lex Fridman (1:00:12.420)
But I think about that all the time when I'm writing.
Mark Normand (1:00:14.940)
I thought this was going to like, there was no sign.
Lex Fridman (1:00:17.280)
It went like super like nihilistic.
Mark Normand (1:00:19.140)
Oh, maybe, maybe, that could work too.
Lex Fridman (1:00:23.060)
What, like as a comedian, so I'm a fan of yours.
Mark Normand (1:00:26.620)
I enjoy, I really enjoy you in conversations.
Lex Fridman (1:00:29.300)
Wow.
Mark Normand (1:00:30.140)
Now I'm getting nothing out of it.
Lex Fridman (1:00:31.940)
This is like emotion.
Mark Normand (1:00:35.020)
You're tough not to read.
Lex Fridman (1:00:36.540)
Cold inside.
Mark Normand (1:00:38.820)
I mean, just the quickness you have,
Lex Fridman (1:00:40.820)
obviously you're also a great stand up comedian.
Lex Fridman (1:00:43.220)
What's your favorite medium to shine in?
Lex Fridman (1:00:46.420)
So you have a podcast yourself, an excellent podcast.
Mark Normand (1:00:51.660)
You're often a podcast guest.
Lex Fridman (1:00:53.500)
Yeah.
Mark Normand (1:00:55.060)
Which is always fun to listen to,
Lex Fridman (1:00:56.780)
how you're going to deal with the different people.
Mark Normand (1:00:58.540)
You're great on Rogan.
Lex Fridman (1:01:00.260)
Oh, thanks.
Lex Fridman (1:01:02.300)
What do you enjoy most?
Lex Fridman (1:01:04.120)
Podcasts are great because you can stretch out a little more.
Mark Normand (1:01:07.300)
You can breathe a little.
Lex Fridman (1:01:08.620)
You know, with a stand up set,
Mark Normand (1:01:09.540)
I like to be like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
Lex Fridman (1:01:11.860)
But podcasts are great because it's conversational.
Lex Fridman (1:01:14.940)
So you can be, it's almost like you're being funny
Lex Fridman (1:01:16.820)
with your friends.
Mark Normand (1:01:18.140)
Whereas a stage is like a, this is a piece.
Lex Fridman (1:01:20.400)
This is a presentation.
Lex Fridman (1:01:22.720)
But I think the podcast is great,
Lex Fridman (1:01:25.220)
but you don't get the reaction.
Mark Normand (1:01:26.980)
Unless the host is laughing, you can't hear the guy
Lex Fridman (1:01:29.180)
in his car in New Jersey driving to work going, ah!
Mark Normand (1:01:32.380)
Every now and then I'll read a comment like,
Lex Fridman (1:01:33.580)
I spit out my coffee when you said this.
Lex Fridman (1:01:35.140)
And I'm like, but it's not immediate.
Lex Fridman (1:01:37.580)
You want the immediate.
Lex Fridman (1:01:38.400)
So stand up will always be number one,
Lex Fridman (1:01:40.500)
but there's no better feeling than killing in a room
Mark Normand (1:01:44.420)
of people who don't know who you are.
Lex Fridman (1:01:46.060)
Strangers, you're in the middle of nowhere.
Mark Normand (1:01:48.220)
You left your wife at home.
Lex Fridman (1:01:49.420)
You left your kids.
Mark Normand (1:01:50.540)
You left your house.
Lex Fridman (1:01:51.740)
You're in the middle of bumfucked Dickville
Lex Fridman (1:01:54.220)
and murdering for these hillbilly nobody, whatever it is.
Lex Fridman (1:01:58.740)
And they're slinging their beers and cheering you on.
Lex Fridman (1:02:02.060)
And they carry out and you fuck some fat lady
Lex Fridman (1:02:05.220)
and you leave and you get back to your hotel
Lex Fridman (1:02:07.220)
and you go, holy shit, what was that?
Lex Fridman (1:02:09.360)
No one will ever know about it.
Mark Normand (1:02:10.580)
Just lost in the ether.
Lex Fridman (1:02:12.620)
That's the best feeling.
Mark Normand (1:02:14.420)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:02:15.460)
Killing an obscurity as Bill Burr would say.
Mark Normand (1:02:19.340)
Yeah, this is one of the things that sucks
Lex Fridman (1:02:20.700)
about giving lectures.
Mark Normand (1:02:22.260)
Like at universities or giving lectures in general
Lex Fridman (1:02:27.780)
is when you look at the audience, you know,
Mark Normand (1:02:31.980)
several hundred students,
Lex Fridman (1:02:33.860)
they all have a bored look on their face.
Mark Normand (1:02:36.140)
Yeah, of course.
Lex Fridman (1:02:36.980)
Like my face now probably looks bored,
Lex Fridman (1:02:40.100)
but I'm actually excited to be talking to you.
Lex Fridman (1:02:42.420)
But there's something about just,
Mark Normand (1:02:45.480)
there's something about a comedy called,
Lex Fridman (1:02:46.860)
maybe this is the contingent of laughter,
Lex Fridman (1:02:49.000)
but like it gives people the freedom to just laugh,
Lex Fridman (1:02:51.740)
to like, to remove that facade of like,
Mark Normand (1:02:54.140)
you don't have to pretend like you don't care.
Lex Fridman (1:02:58.100)
Like if you care, you can show it
Lex Fridman (1:02:59.660)
and you can have fun with it a lot.
Lex Fridman (1:03:01.580)
Probably liquor helps out too.
Mark Normand (1:03:03.780)
Yeah, it helps for sure.
Lex Fridman (1:03:05.280)
But there is a, especially,
Lex Fridman (1:03:06.900)
and that's why comedy I think is so popular right now
Lex Fridman (1:03:09.420)
because HR is up our ass.
Mark Normand (1:03:12.500)
We're scared of old tweets that might come back to haunt us.
Lex Fridman (1:03:15.400)
What did I say on that interview?
Mark Normand (1:03:17.220)
Even people at offices are like,
Lex Fridman (1:03:18.740)
I put something on Facebook in 1999
Mark Normand (1:03:22.100)
that was about fat tits that I liked.
Lex Fridman (1:03:24.360)
Should I get rid of that?
Mark Normand (1:03:25.860)
Even people say like, there's no cancel, whatever.
Lex Fridman (1:03:28.820)
There is something in the air right now
Mark Normand (1:03:30.980)
that wasn't there before.
Lex Fridman (1:03:32.420)
It's the video, I'm a Karen,
Mark Normand (1:03:34.580)
I got caught at Trader Joe, whatever it is.
Lex Fridman (1:03:36.620)
People rat on each other now,
Mark Normand (1:03:37.860)
everybody's tattletaling because they want the clicks.
Lex Fridman (1:03:40.040)
It's a horrible society we've crafted.
Lex Fridman (1:03:42.580)
But standup comedy gets you to come out,
Lex Fridman (1:03:46.860)
and now people do it at standup shows too.
Mark Normand (1:03:48.700)
Sadly, but it gets you to come out
Lex Fridman (1:03:50.300)
and let that inhibition down.
Mark Normand (1:03:52.360)
Because we're all human,
Lex Fridman (1:03:53.200)
we've all had the fucked up thoughts like,
Mark Normand (1:03:55.340)
man, that guy's fat as shit.
Lex Fridman (1:03:56.980)
It doesn't mean you hate the guy,
Mark Normand (1:03:57.940)
it doesn't mean you hate fat people,
Lex Fridman (1:03:58.820)
it doesn't mean you're fat shaming.
Lex Fridman (1:04:00.220)
But you can't say that at the office.
Lex Fridman (1:04:01.520)
You can't go, Bob, you're fat as shit.
Mark Normand (1:04:03.000)
You'll get fired for body shaming.
Lex Fridman (1:04:04.920)
But at the club, you go, that guy's fat as shit.
Mark Normand (1:04:08.180)
The crowd goes, he is fat as shit.
Lex Fridman (1:04:10.940)
And it's this weird cathartic thing
Mark Normand (1:04:12.140)
because all we do is tamp shit down.
Lex Fridman (1:04:14.140)
It's kind of like you ever meet a girl
Mark Normand (1:04:15.340)
who's like all prim and proper in the bedroom.
Lex Fridman (1:04:17.280)
She's like, put a lamp up my ass.
Mark Normand (1:04:18.780)
Ah, you know, whatever it is.
Lex Fridman (1:04:20.700)
It's because we gotta get it out.
Mark Normand (1:04:22.900)
We're all repressed in some way.
Lex Fridman (1:04:24.900)
So I guess what you're saying is comedy's important.
Mark Normand (1:04:27.660)
Yes, callback.
Lex Fridman (1:04:31.800)
All right.
Mark Normand (1:04:32.640)
Well played, sir.
Lex Fridman (1:04:33.460)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:04:34.300)
What do you think about Austin?
Lex Fridman (1:04:35.940)
What do you think about the comedy scene in Austin?
Mark Normand (1:04:37.420)
We talk about LA and New York.
Lex Fridman (1:04:39.780)
What do you think about what Joe's trying to create there?
Lex Fridman (1:04:42.300)
So I should say that the reason I moved to Austin,
Lex Fridman (1:04:46.620)
I have this dream of, it wouldn't be funny
Mark Normand (1:04:48.980)
if I said this dream of becoming a comedian.
Lex Fridman (1:04:50.900)
Oh, yeah.
Mark Normand (1:04:51.740)
It's an audience, at least.
Lex Fridman (1:04:53.940)
Yeah, that's true.
Mark Normand (1:04:55.220)
You know, I always said you can hear
Lex Fridman (1:04:56.380)
the music in the distance.
Mark Normand (1:04:57.460)
I have this dream around robotics
Lex Fridman (1:04:59.980)
and artificial intelligence, whether it's a company,
Mark Normand (1:05:01.900)
whether it's something else that I was just pulling me to.
Lex Fridman (1:05:05.220)
I actually wanted to move to San Francisco,
Lex Fridman (1:05:06.700)
and then all my friends in San Francisco said,
Lex Fridman (1:05:08.960)
no, it's the wrong place.
Mark Normand (1:05:09.900)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:05:12.020)
At this time, the cynicism there
Mark Normand (1:05:16.180)
is just not conducive to taking big leaps
Lex Fridman (1:05:20.380)
into the unknown, excited about the future kind of thing.
Lex Fridman (1:05:23.540)
And Austin was that, for me in particular with Elon Musk,
Lex Fridman (1:05:28.100)
but also just the energy that everybody had,
Mark Normand (1:05:30.500)
including Joe, the excitement about the future.
Lex Fridman (1:05:34.540)
I don't care if Austin burns to the ground
Lex Fridman (1:05:37.100)
and it actually is a complete failure.
Lex Fridman (1:05:39.880)
Being excited about the future seems to be,
Mark Normand (1:05:42.980)
like optimism about the future,
Lex Fridman (1:05:44.380)
seems to be the thing that actually
Mark Normand (1:05:47.140)
makes that future happen, makes a great future happen.
Lex Fridman (1:05:49.580)
So it's always cool for me to see Joe
Mark Normand (1:05:53.560)
super excited about creating a culture in Austin,
Lex Fridman (1:05:57.860)
like making it a comedy hub.
Mark Normand (1:06:01.420)
I don't want to overstate it,
Lex Fridman (1:06:02.700)
but I think he really believes it'll be
Mark Normand (1:06:05.380)
a very big place for comedy in the United States
Lex Fridman (1:06:09.260)
and generally in the world.
Lex Fridman (1:06:10.500)
And so just even believing that, that's powerful.
Lex Fridman (1:06:13.500)
I agree.
Mark Normand (1:06:14.340)
You start to make it happen, that energy is there.
Lex Fridman (1:06:18.700)
Anyway, so, but that's for me from just an outsider
Mark Normand (1:06:21.220)
watching the fun of it.
Lex Fridman (1:06:23.000)
I should also mention for less of an outsider,
Mark Normand (1:06:26.060)
more insider in the martial arts world,
Lex Fridman (1:06:29.120)
partially probably because of Joe, I'm not sure,
Mark Normand (1:06:32.100)
like John Donahar, Gordon Ryan, the B Team,
Lex Fridman (1:06:36.220)
all of those folks, those are, that might be gibberish
Mark Normand (1:06:38.700)
to you, but those are like some of the greatest grapplers
Lex Fridman (1:06:42.580)
in martial artists of all time.
Lex Fridman (1:06:43.820)
So it's also becoming this hub of martial arts.
Lex Fridman (1:06:46.900)
So the whole thing is just beautiful.
Lex Fridman (1:06:49.860)
Anyway, what are your thoughts about that scene?
Lex Fridman (1:06:52.880)
Well, there's a lot here, a lot of things to mention.
Mark Normand (1:06:55.940)
One, I think Joe did do that to a degree,
Lex Fridman (1:07:00.820)
like all these people, Segura lives there now,
Mark Normand (1:07:03.140)
a lot of comics live there.
Lex Fridman (1:07:04.500)
He's opening clubs, other clubs are opening.
Mark Normand (1:07:07.580)
I think it's happening.
Lex Fridman (1:07:08.860)
That's the other thing is people go,
Mark Normand (1:07:10.300)
everybody's moving to Austin, Austin's the new hub.
Lex Fridman (1:07:12.420)
And then they look at their watch and they go,
Mark Normand (1:07:13.820)
five minutes went by, nothing changed.
Lex Fridman (1:07:15.340)
It's gonna take years, but everybody wants it now, now, now.
Mark Normand (1:07:20.820)
What, Austin, there's no industry there.
Lex Fridman (1:07:23.860)
There's no Netflix, whatever.
Lex Fridman (1:07:25.340)
And you're like, yeah, I know, but it needs a minute.
Lex Fridman (1:07:27.300)
You can't just do this overnight.
Lex Fridman (1:07:28.580)
So people forget that.
Lex Fridman (1:07:30.040)
So it could happen huge, just give it some time.
Mark Normand (1:07:33.220)
I mean, he's opening a club, I went and saw it.
Lex Fridman (1:07:35.060)
It's incredible, like it's so perfect for comedy.
Mark Normand (1:07:37.980)
It's every detail, it's incredible.
Lex Fridman (1:07:39.900)
But so it could happen still.
Mark Normand (1:07:44.020)
I do think there's a little biting off more
Lex Fridman (1:07:47.200)
than they can chew with Austin because it's not that big.
Lex Fridman (1:07:50.860)
So like.
Lex Fridman (1:07:51.700)
And it's spread out.
Mark Normand (1:07:52.520)
I mean, yeah, it's not big.
Lex Fridman (1:07:53.360)
And the infrastructure is not quite there to support it.
Lex Fridman (1:07:57.420)
But it has a lot of, comparing from the tech side,
Lex Fridman (1:08:03.100)
it has a lot of land to expand into.
Lex Fridman (1:08:04.960)
So it might become this. That helps.
Lex Fridman (1:08:07.260)
Like you're basically establishing,
Mark Normand (1:08:08.800)
it's kind of like when you're in New York,
Lex Fridman (1:08:10.020)
you're establishing these whole neighborhoods.
Lex Fridman (1:08:12.780)
And you have the freedom to do that
Lex Fridman (1:08:14.220)
because there's a lot of space on all sides.
Mark Normand (1:08:17.380)
Yes, okay, so that helps.
Lex Fridman (1:08:18.700)
So again, maybe some time.
Mark Normand (1:08:22.360)
I do agree with that new hope
Lex Fridman (1:08:24.620)
that's kind of built into human beings of like,
Mark Normand (1:08:27.140)
let's go to America, let's go to the utopia.
Lex Fridman (1:08:29.540)
We even have it with space.
Mark Normand (1:08:30.660)
Let's go to Mars.
Lex Fridman (1:08:32.100)
We gotta see what's over there.
Lex Fridman (1:08:33.240)
And it's just red, dusty bullshit, but you still gotta go.
Lex Fridman (1:08:37.260)
So I'm with you on that about this new hope, this new land.
Lex Fridman (1:08:41.260)
And I think that is beautiful.
Lex Fridman (1:08:42.740)
And I think there's a lot of haters.
Mark Normand (1:08:43.940)
I think there's a lot of naysayers who hate change,
Lex Fridman (1:08:46.940)
who hate anything new.
Lex Fridman (1:08:48.260)
And then I think you gotta go, hey, that hurts, that sucks,
Lex Fridman (1:08:50.940)
but blow me dickless.
Mark Normand (1:08:53.000)
I'm trying something.
Lex Fridman (1:08:54.020)
You're a loser.
Mark Normand (1:08:55.340)
Stop hating on me.
Lex Fridman (1:08:57.060)
I mean, how many people hate Elon Musk?
Mark Normand (1:08:59.280)
Yeah, it's hilarious.
Lex Fridman (1:09:00.580)
I mean, there's some of the criticism on Austin.
Mark Normand (1:09:03.620)
It's like a fad.
Lex Fridman (1:09:04.860)
Like a lot of people are really, people are excited
Mark Normand (1:09:07.820)
about Austin and somehow that's like,
Lex Fridman (1:09:10.740)
it's like when Green Day became famous,
Mark Normand (1:09:12.560)
you no longer want to be a fan of Green Day.
Lex Fridman (1:09:15.280)
But to me, like that's...
Mark Normand (1:09:17.340)
Well, Austin was already a cool town.
Lex Fridman (1:09:18.940)
Like every comic five years ago, it's like,
Mark Normand (1:09:21.340)
oh, I got Austin this weekend, I can't wait.
Lex Fridman (1:09:23.920)
So it already had a buzz,
Lex Fridman (1:09:25.340)
but some people think maybe the buzz was the cool part.
Lex Fridman (1:09:29.380)
The fact that it was like this off the beaten path city
Lex Fridman (1:09:33.100)
and now I get to visit it and then leave.
Lex Fridman (1:09:35.580)
But I think it could still be
Mark Normand (1:09:37.380)
this comedy tech booming place.
Lex Fridman (1:09:40.340)
It just will take some time and people want it right now.
Mark Normand (1:09:43.240)
Well, on the tech side, it's...
Lex Fridman (1:09:46.980)
It's already there?
Mark Normand (1:09:47.820)
It's getting there very fast.
Lex Fridman (1:09:50.160)
So, I mean, Elon's really pushing that with the factory.
Mark Normand (1:09:53.780)
It's just a huge number of people are moving there with jobs.
Lex Fridman (1:09:58.520)
Like you're already starting.
Lex Fridman (1:10:00.300)
And then the opportunities to launch new companies
Lex Fridman (1:10:03.000)
is just incredible.
Mark Normand (1:10:04.060)
I guess it's not right now.
Lex Fridman (1:10:05.820)
It's like within months, within a year, that kind of thing.
Lex Fridman (1:10:09.160)
But like, it's an opportunity to just
Lex Fridman (1:10:11.620)
start to build shit in a new place.
Lex Fridman (1:10:14.440)
And it's cool.
Lex Fridman (1:10:15.280)
It's kind of like going to Mars.
Mark Normand (1:10:17.180)
It's like you get to start over.
Lex Fridman (1:10:18.580)
Yeah, and I like the hope aspect.
Mark Normand (1:10:20.780)
I think that's huge for people.
Lex Fridman (1:10:22.720)
And I'm all for it.
Mark Normand (1:10:25.380)
I hope it works out.
Lex Fridman (1:10:26.340)
I don't know if it will,
Lex Fridman (1:10:27.460)
but I don't know anything about economies
Lex Fridman (1:10:29.620)
and city planning and all that shit.
Lex Fridman (1:10:32.100)
So it might be too early to say, but I hope it works.
Lex Fridman (1:10:35.980)
Are you still talking about Austin or Mars?
Mark Normand (1:10:37.860)
Austin.
Lex Fridman (1:10:38.700)
Mars is, eh, there's nothing there.
Mark Normand (1:10:41.620)
There's no vagina there.
Lex Fridman (1:10:42.900)
There's no food there.
Mark Normand (1:10:44.140)
There's no water there.
Lex Fridman (1:10:45.040)
I don't know.
Mark Normand (1:10:45.880)
It seems, I get space travel.
Lex Fridman (1:10:48.180)
I think it's important.
Lex Fridman (1:10:49.100)
But I don't know Mars is really gonna move the needle.
Lex Fridman (1:10:55.860)
So what are your thoughts about Elon Musk and SpaceX
Lex Fridman (1:10:59.700)
and launching rockets into space?
Lex Fridman (1:11:01.580)
I think it's all good because you could say,
Mark Normand (1:11:04.260)
hey, we could just feed everybody.
Lex Fridman (1:11:05.660)
And I was like, yeah, that's true.
Mark Normand (1:11:07.260)
By the way, these guys give a ton of money
Lex Fridman (1:11:08.660)
to philanthropy shit that nobody cares about.
Mark Normand (1:11:11.820)
By the way, it's weird.
Lex Fridman (1:11:13.100)
He could feed Nigeria with pocket change of his.
Lex Fridman (1:11:17.780)
And you're like, well, maybe he has.
Lex Fridman (1:11:20.180)
I heard Bill Gates gave back so much money
Mark Normand (1:11:21.820)
he saved 6 million lives.
Lex Fridman (1:11:23.420)
But that's a reverse Holocaust, by the way.
Mark Normand (1:11:26.220)
That's pretty good.
Lex Fridman (1:11:27.320)
What have you done?
Mark Normand (1:11:28.160)
You're a barista.
Lex Fridman (1:11:29.260)
So I just think space travel is good
Mark Normand (1:11:34.620)
because you learn about the place you're living in
Lex Fridman (1:11:37.820)
from going to space.
Mark Normand (1:11:39.780)
It kind of helps you learn about this more.
Lex Fridman (1:11:42.740)
You could say, what's the point of going to this other there?
Lex Fridman (1:11:44.420)
But it does help, I think.
Lex Fridman (1:11:46.660)
Yeah, doing difficult things in the engineering space
Mark Normand (1:11:49.900)
seems to be a way to develop as almost like an accident,
Lex Fridman (1:11:54.700)
as a side effect of doing a really difficult thing
Mark Normand (1:11:57.140)
in a team of brilliant people.
Lex Fridman (1:11:58.720)
You develop things like the internet.
Lex Fridman (1:12:01.060)
And you could argue that the internet
Lex Fridman (1:12:02.620)
maybe is not so good for society.
Mark Normand (1:12:04.180)
No, I'm just kidding.
Lex Fridman (1:12:05.060)
It's good and bad.
Mark Normand (1:12:06.060)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:12:06.900)
But it's like a pull up.
Mark Normand (1:12:07.980)
You're trying to get your bicep going,
Lex Fridman (1:12:09.240)
but hey, before you know it, you got decent forearms.
Lex Fridman (1:12:12.140)
But you weren't working on the forearms,
Lex Fridman (1:12:13.460)
you wanted to buy, but you got the fore.
Lex Fridman (1:12:15.820)
And I think that's kind of what space travel is.
Lex Fridman (1:12:18.600)
I like how this pivoted into a workout routine advice.
Mark Normand (1:12:22.420)
I'm trying to get an analogy going here.
Lex Fridman (1:12:25.060)
All right, they work pretty well.
Mark Normand (1:12:26.500)
I'll take it.
Lex Fridman (1:12:27.340)
All right.
Lex Fridman (1:12:28.180)
What are your thoughts about, since I'm a robotics person,
Lex Fridman (1:12:32.300)
I'd be curious to see, do you think about the space at all?
Mark Normand (1:12:37.900)
About, first of all, autonomous vehicles
Lex Fridman (1:12:39.780)
with Tesla Autopilot and Waymo self driving car.
Mark Normand (1:12:45.260)
I'm not sure if you're familiar
Lex Fridman (1:12:46.300)
with all the autonomous vehicles and so on.
Lex Fridman (1:12:48.700)
So those are robots on wheels.
Lex Fridman (1:12:51.020)
And then there's also legged robots.
Lex Fridman (1:12:52.920)
So next time you're in Austin,
Lex Fridman (1:12:54.860)
you get to meet some of the legged robots.
Mark Normand (1:12:56.500)
That's what I've been working on.
Lex Fridman (1:13:00.300)
And I find those kind of a fascinating way
Mark Normand (1:13:04.700)
to explore the nature of intelligence in our computers,
Lex Fridman (1:13:10.040)
but also explore our own intelligence
Lex Fridman (1:13:13.580)
and also explore our own,
Lex Fridman (1:13:16.720)
like what makes us connect to other living beings,
Mark Normand (1:13:20.860)
whether it's dogs, cats, or other humans.
Lex Fridman (1:13:24.020)
Like there's some magic there
Mark Normand (1:13:26.100)
that's beyond just intelligence.
Lex Fridman (1:13:27.980)
And I, like when I have the robot dog,
Mark Normand (1:13:30.460)
there's some aspect to it that, I don't know,
Lex Fridman (1:13:34.500)
brings me joy in a way that a dog does,
Mark Normand (1:13:37.100)
in a way that a good friend does.
Lex Fridman (1:13:38.400)
Yeah, that's interesting.
Lex Fridman (1:13:39.740)
And I'm not sure if that's some kind of anthropomorphism,
Lex Fridman (1:13:43.420)
like where I'm projecting my hopes for this,
Lex Fridman (1:13:47.400)
what this thing is, but it's kind of built in.
Lex Fridman (1:13:50.940)
I mean, it's just a source of joy.
Mark Normand (1:13:52.620)
Maybe it's connected to the fact
Lex Fridman (1:13:54.460)
that there's just like a loneliness
Mark Normand (1:13:56.460)
within all of us, within me.
Lex Fridman (1:13:58.660)
And it's just nice to have other things in your life
Mark Normand (1:14:03.340)
that move, that recognize you, that kind of thing.
Lex Fridman (1:14:05.860)
I mean, I suppose it's nice to even just have a plant.
Mark Normand (1:14:09.140)
Yeah, it is.
Lex Fridman (1:14:10.140)
Plant goes a long way.
Mark Normand (1:14:10.980)
You see a guy with plants in his apartment,
Lex Fridman (1:14:12.460)
it changes the apartment because they're alive.
Mark Normand (1:14:14.260)
You gotta water them.
Lex Fridman (1:14:15.100)
You gotta put sun on them.
Lex Fridman (1:14:15.980)
So yeah, I think there's something there.
Lex Fridman (1:14:17.580)
And I think you can see people's reactions
Mark Normand (1:14:19.720)
when you show them advanced technology,
Lex Fridman (1:14:22.580)
like these dog robots or these robots that dance and shit.
Lex Fridman (1:14:25.740)
People are like, what the fuck?
Lex Fridman (1:14:27.700)
Like it hits home in some way, whether it's fear
Mark Normand (1:14:30.220)
or you wanna fuck them clearly, whatever it is,
Lex Fridman (1:14:33.800)
but it does connect with you in some way.
Lex Fridman (1:14:36.460)
So I'm with you.
Lex Fridman (1:14:38.480)
And I think this is why I don't think robots will take over.
Mark Normand (1:14:41.000)
You always hear that robot, they're making them too advanced.
Lex Fridman (1:14:42.820)
They're gonna wipe us out, blah, blah, blah.
Mark Normand (1:14:45.900)
If robots get at human emotions, that is scary
Lex Fridman (1:14:50.260)
because they could get mad at us and kill us
Lex Fridman (1:14:52.140)
and they're stronger and they don't need sleep.
Lex Fridman (1:14:53.520)
They don't need food.
Mark Normand (1:14:54.360)
They don't need water.
Lex Fridman (1:14:55.680)
They don't get jealous.
Lex Fridman (1:14:56.940)
But if they have emotions,
Lex Fridman (1:14:59.360)
then I think we can dominate them
Lex Fridman (1:15:01.360)
because who knows emotions better than us?
Lex Fridman (1:15:04.220)
We've got thousands of years
Mark Normand (1:15:05.780)
of evolutionary emotional bullshit.
Lex Fridman (1:15:08.260)
We can go, hey robot, I heard your wife
Lex Fridman (1:15:10.260)
fucked that black and Decker, huh?
Lex Fridman (1:15:12.260)
They're gonna crumble.
Mark Normand (1:15:13.800)
We can bully them.
Lex Fridman (1:15:15.260)
Emotionally manipulate robots.
Mark Normand (1:15:16.820)
Yes, that's when we'll win.
Lex Fridman (1:15:19.960)
Right now, they could kill us.
Mark Normand (1:15:21.220)
They could just, we'd all die.
Lex Fridman (1:15:23.060)
Then we shoot them back, bing, bing, bing, bing.
Mark Normand (1:15:24.860)
That's no good.
Lex Fridman (1:15:25.820)
But if they do get emotions, then we can go,
Mark Normand (1:15:28.220)
hey, you look like hell.
Lex Fridman (1:15:29.520)
What is that, a rusty bolt?
Mark Normand (1:15:30.600)
Hey, you're dropping some oil there, you loser.
Lex Fridman (1:15:32.800)
I think we can win if they do get emotions.
Mark Normand (1:15:35.300)
This goes back to your father being able
Lex Fridman (1:15:37.300)
to undercut you with a single word.
Mark Normand (1:15:39.620)
You're right.
Lex Fridman (1:15:40.460)
Yeah, so we're the creators of the robots
Lex Fridman (1:15:42.260)
and then the robots will just,
Lex Fridman (1:15:43.580)
you would say the exact thing
Mark Normand (1:15:46.620)
where the robot would be like, that son of a bitch.
Lex Fridman (1:15:49.300)
And then it goes back to his hole
Lex Fridman (1:15:51.340)
and just sits there miserable.
Lex Fridman (1:15:52.980)
Right, yeah, hardware looks more like software to me.
Mark Normand (1:15:55.900)
You can't get it up, yada, yada, yada.
Lex Fridman (1:15:59.080)
But I'm not worried about robots
Lex Fridman (1:16:00.300)
and I think self, what do you think
Lex Fridman (1:16:01.900)
about the self driving cars?
Lex Fridman (1:16:03.260)
Is that just wiping out the horse and buggy?
Lex Fridman (1:16:06.500)
Isn't that just progression of technology?
Mark Normand (1:16:09.340)
Yeah, so I don't know if you've driven in a Tesla,
Lex Fridman (1:16:11.780)
for example.
Mark Normand (1:16:12.620)
I have, I rode in the passenger, I just drive it.
Lex Fridman (1:16:16.140)
Yeah, there's several stages in that.
Mark Normand (1:16:18.180)
I think it's the problem is way harder than people realize.
Lex Fridman (1:16:20.860)
And for quite a while,
Mark Normand (1:16:22.380)
it'll just make driving more pleasant.
Lex Fridman (1:16:24.300)
It'll make it less stressful.
Mark Normand (1:16:26.720)
It'll take over some of the boring bits for you
Lex Fridman (1:16:29.660)
and make it easier.
Mark Normand (1:16:30.500)
Like there's something that happens actually
Lex Fridman (1:16:31.920)
when the car is driving for you in the following way.
Mark Normand (1:16:36.500)
Like it's staying in the lane,
Lex Fridman (1:16:38.800)
it's keeping distance to the car in front of you.
Mark Normand (1:16:40.380)
Maybe it's changing lanes.
Lex Fridman (1:16:42.420)
It allows you to relax a little bit.
Mark Normand (1:16:44.460)
Like you become, you still have to be alert,
Lex Fridman (1:16:48.080)
but you become like a passenger
Lex Fridman (1:16:49.540)
and you get to like take in the world.
Lex Fridman (1:16:51.300)
I mean, somehow that's more relaxing
Mark Normand (1:16:53.620)
without making you necessarily like bored more.
Lex Fridman (1:16:58.460)
It's energizing more.
Lex Fridman (1:16:59.860)
So I just think it makes the driving experience
Lex Fridman (1:17:01.620)
more pleasant.
Lex Fridman (1:17:02.560)
But when you actually fully automate cars,
Lex Fridman (1:17:05.220)
when you can just completely tune out
Lex Fridman (1:17:06.660)
and start reading a book or go to sleep,
Lex Fridman (1:17:09.040)
that might change society like in ways
Mark Normand (1:17:13.940)
we don't even understand.
Lex Fridman (1:17:15.600)
Because you'll have, I mean the,
Mark Normand (1:17:20.180)
it'll probably change the nature of roads
Lex Fridman (1:17:22.060)
because the cars, because now you can be super productive.
Lex Fridman (1:17:25.700)
And so no longer quite matters to you
Lex Fridman (1:17:28.500)
as much how long it takes to get from point A to point B
Mark Normand (1:17:31.980)
because you're not wasting that time.
Lex Fridman (1:17:34.340)
You just continue working.
Mark Normand (1:17:37.100)
It's like public transit that comes to you.
Lex Fridman (1:17:40.060)
And so there will be maybe less roads and bigger roads
Lex Fridman (1:17:43.940)
and it will just change the nature of how we get
Lex Fridman (1:17:46.380)
from point A to point B.
Mark Normand (1:17:47.300)
I think you're right.
Lex Fridman (1:17:48.140)
But then couple that also with the fact
Mark Normand (1:17:50.380)
that we seem to be more and more comfortable
Lex Fridman (1:17:53.460)
existing in the digital world.
Mark Normand (1:17:55.180)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:17:56.020)
So like maybe we won't want to go outside more and more.
Mark Normand (1:17:59.100)
We will just interact with each other virtually.
Lex Fridman (1:18:01.220)
And I don't mean Zoom meetings.
Mark Normand (1:18:02.380)
I mean, just in other ways that's more fulfilling
Lex Fridman (1:18:09.100)
than a Zoom meeting, but then maybe not
Mark Normand (1:18:11.780)
because like there's something deeply uncompelling
Lex Fridman (1:18:15.540)
about Zoom meetings.
Mark Normand (1:18:16.540)
Like podcasts that are remote,
Lex Fridman (1:18:19.660)
unless they're super information dense,
Mark Normand (1:18:21.600)
at least to me as a podcast fan, kind of suck.
Lex Fridman (1:18:24.020)
They suck.
Mark Normand (1:18:24.860)
There's no connection.
Lex Fridman (1:18:25.680)
It goes back to the dog thing.
Mark Normand (1:18:26.980)
With the Zoom, there's no connection.
Lex Fridman (1:18:28.900)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:18:29.740)
And we're not, you know, I don't understand why
Lex Fridman (1:18:31.460)
we're not even making eye contact.
Mark Normand (1:18:32.780)
I know.
Lex Fridman (1:18:33.760)
But it's something there.
Mark Normand (1:18:34.740)
It's in the room.
Lex Fridman (1:18:35.580)
There's pheromones.
Lex Fridman (1:18:36.420)
And that's like out of our understanding probably.
Lex Fridman (1:18:39.100)
It's just some kind of weird biological,
Lex Fridman (1:18:41.480)
you know, you ever have Cheerios in a bowl?
Lex Fridman (1:18:43.540)
The Cheerios tend to, they tend to go together.
Mark Normand (1:18:47.140)
You see a cluster of Cheerios.
Lex Fridman (1:18:48.640)
They're never really hanging out on the other side.
Lex Fridman (1:18:50.280)
And that's kind of how people are in real life.
Lex Fridman (1:18:53.580)
I wonder what the physics of that is.
Lex Fridman (1:18:55.080)
So they come together and they stick.
Lex Fridman (1:18:57.380)
There's so many with molecules.
Mark Normand (1:18:59.260)
I don't know, I can't remember what it was,
Lex Fridman (1:19:00.340)
but it was fascinating.
Lex Fridman (1:19:01.180)
And I think that's how people are.
Lex Fridman (1:19:02.300)
And I think you try to write a TV show
Mark Normand (1:19:04.900)
or craft a movie with your team, Zoom, nothing there.
Lex Fridman (1:19:09.900)
Nothing there.
Mark Normand (1:19:10.740)
It's like phone sex versus penetration.
Lex Fridman (1:19:14.980)
One day you'll learn that.
Mark Normand (1:19:16.220)
I know nothing of either of the,
Lex Fridman (1:19:18.260)
I look forward,
Mark Normand (1:19:19.100)
because I think there's a phone sex Netflix documentary
Lex Fridman (1:19:21.600)
that there's a show or something like that
Mark Normand (1:19:23.940)
that is really popular that I want to go watch.
Lex Fridman (1:19:27.020)
So at least I can learn about that.
Mark Normand (1:19:28.980)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:19:29.820)
I could send you some links.
Mark Normand (1:19:31.140)
Like really.
Lex Fridman (1:19:31.980)
Oh, on the internet?
Mark Normand (1:19:32.800)
Yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:19:33.980)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:19:34.820)
But yeah, self driving car.
Lex Fridman (1:19:36.040)
I think it's just inevitable.
Mark Normand (1:19:37.660)
It's coming and these truckers
Lex Fridman (1:19:39.300)
are going to have to figure something out.
Mark Normand (1:19:42.100)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:19:42.940)
I mean, that's an under understood industry actually,
Mark Normand (1:19:45.260)
because there's not,
Lex Fridman (1:19:47.460)
there's a lot of trucking jobs and people don't want to,
Mark Normand (1:19:50.380)
well, people don't want to actually take them anymore
Lex Fridman (1:19:52.460)
because it's such a difficult job.
Lex Fridman (1:19:53.780)
So it won't have,
Lex Fridman (1:19:56.160)
or a lot of people believe it won't have
Mark Normand (1:19:58.300)
as big of a negative impact as folks anticipate.
Lex Fridman (1:20:01.640)
There'll be other automation.
Mark Normand (1:20:02.840)
I think they'll have a huge impact.
Lex Fridman (1:20:04.660)
Yeah, for sure.
Mark Normand (1:20:06.100)
I mean, you already see it in McDonald's.
Lex Fridman (1:20:07.300)
You go to the beep, beep, beep.
Lex Fridman (1:20:08.540)
Why do you want to get yelled at
Lex Fridman (1:20:09.460)
by the heavyset woman of color,
Mark Normand (1:20:11.460)
you know, for making a bad order
Lex Fridman (1:20:13.480)
when you can just, you know, hit the screen?
Lex Fridman (1:20:16.460)
But those interactions I think are human.
Lex Fridman (1:20:19.100)
I mean, that's part of life.
Lex Fridman (1:20:20.060)
So it is scary taking away everything.
Lex Fridman (1:20:22.260)
How long till we're not fucking?
Mark Normand (1:20:24.060)
That's coming too.
Lex Fridman (1:20:25.260)
Yeah.
Mark Normand (1:20:26.100)
Then there's going to have two types of people.
Lex Fridman (1:20:27.860)
Are you a fuck in real life?
Lex Fridman (1:20:29.940)
Are you a digital fuck person?
Lex Fridman (1:20:31.380)
Oh, I'm a digital.
Mark Normand (1:20:32.220)
Oh, I like real fucking.
Lex Fridman (1:20:33.140)
Sorry, we can't date.
Mark Normand (1:20:34.460)
That's coming.
Lex Fridman (1:20:35.540)
Well, there's also the reproduction side of sex,
Mark Normand (1:20:39.940)
which is like with genetic engineering,
Lex Fridman (1:20:42.100)
you'll be able to specify a little bit of details.
Mark Normand (1:20:45.980)
I talked to Jamie Mertzel about that.
Lex Fridman (1:20:47.780)
Like where you can specify like,
Mark Normand (1:20:55.160)
it'll start with like,
Lex Fridman (1:20:56.380)
I want my child not to have like a high likelihood
Mark Normand (1:21:00.380)
of diabetes or something like that.
Lex Fridman (1:21:02.060)
And then you just get to specify like intelligence.
Mark Normand (1:21:04.740)
You just get to specify those kinds of parameters
Lex Fridman (1:21:07.100)
until you're like basically trying to create a perfect human
Lex Fridman (1:21:10.940)
and you lose some of the magic of the flaws
Lex Fridman (1:21:12.580)
that make us who we are.
Mark Normand (1:21:13.740)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (1:21:14.660)
And you know, I'm pretty sure in the full lineup of humans,
Mark Normand (1:21:19.860)
like, so let me give you some information.
Lex Fridman (1:21:23.620)
Lay it off me, buddy.
Mark Normand (1:21:24.460)
Break it down.
Lex Fridman (1:21:26.020)
I'm sure you researched this thoroughly,
Lex Fridman (1:21:29.460)
but a male of the human species,
Lex Fridman (1:21:33.860)
the homo sapien produces 500 billion sperm cells
Mark Normand (1:21:40.100)
in a lifetime.
Lex Fridman (1:21:41.620)
So that's all, some more than others.
Mark Normand (1:21:46.500)
That's all uniquely, genetically unique humans
Lex Fridman (1:21:50.920)
that you could produce.
Lex Fridman (1:21:51.760)
So even across those 500 billion, you can select.
Lex Fridman (1:21:55.580)
And so.
Lex Fridman (1:21:56.420)
What do you mean, like abort some or?
Lex Fridman (1:21:58.140)
No, you can choose which of them you want.
Mark Normand (1:22:00.380)
I mean, just imagine all the genetic possibilities
Lex Fridman (1:22:03.020)
that are there, like all of the possible,
Mark Normand (1:22:05.020)
like you won the race.
Lex Fridman (1:22:07.940)
Yes.
Mark Normand (1:22:09.780)
Shocking.
Lex Fridman (1:22:10.620)
Yeah, this is the winner.
Lex Fridman (1:22:11.440)
Which one out of all the 500 billion?
Lex Fridman (1:22:13.020)
You have to imagine what the competition was.
Mark Normand (1:22:15.620)
Oh, just tarts all day long.
Lex Fridman (1:22:18.540)
Handicap.
Mark Normand (1:22:19.940)
Well, so it's not actually the fastest sperm
Lex Fridman (1:22:23.100)
or like it's, I think a lot of it is timing and luck.
Mark Normand (1:22:26.780)
Ah.
Lex Fridman (1:22:27.620)
That's what it seems like.
Mark Normand (1:22:28.440)
There's actual papers on this
Lex Fridman (1:22:29.280)
and I've actually been reading them.
Mark Normand (1:22:30.980)
I hope so.
Lex Fridman (1:22:31.940)
So it's not just like the fastest sperm to the egg.
Mark Normand (1:22:34.100)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:22:34.940)
There's a timing thing.
Lex Fridman (1:22:36.280)
So you were just lucky.
Lex Fridman (1:22:37.980)
All right.
Mark Normand (1:22:39.320)
I believe that.
Lex Fridman (1:22:40.540)
So it's interesting to think about like,
Mark Normand (1:22:42.060)
once you're able to specify some parameters
Lex Fridman (1:22:46.980)
of what your child is like,
Lex Fridman (1:22:49.220)
how that changes the nature of
Lex Fridman (1:22:53.660)
even just like the intimacy of two humans getting together
Lex Fridman (1:22:57.780)
and making, creating together a child.
Lex Fridman (1:23:02.320)
Yeah.
Mark Normand (1:23:03.160)
I mean, it changes it.
Lex Fridman (1:23:04.640)
It's almost like, I don't know,
Mark Normand (1:23:06.040)
it becomes like a factory line of some kind.
Lex Fridman (1:23:10.740)
If you don't meet naturally.
Mark Normand (1:23:12.920)
Yeah, if you don't meet naturally and then you don't
Lex Fridman (1:23:15.320)
and you get to optimize your child,
Mark Normand (1:23:18.640)
then it's some like you have to consider
Lex Fridman (1:23:21.880)
utilitarian type of things,
Mark Normand (1:23:23.360)
like what's good for society
Lex Fridman (1:23:25.480)
and it'll probably be regulation about what kind of children
Mark Normand (1:23:28.320)
you can have or not.
Lex Fridman (1:23:29.520)
Like your child can not have an IQ below this
Mark Normand (1:23:32.200)
or above this or something like that.
Lex Fridman (1:23:34.120)
Or your child can not.
Mark Normand (1:23:35.720)
We already kind of do that with VIP clubs.
Lex Fridman (1:23:39.200)
Like, ah, you're kind of ugly
Mark Normand (1:23:40.920)
or women go, hey, he's not tall enough.
Lex Fridman (1:23:43.260)
We kind of do it a little.
Mark Normand (1:23:44.480)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:23:45.320)
Especially sexually.
Mark Normand (1:23:46.560)
Yeah, we do.
Lex Fridman (1:23:47.380)
Can't get on the roller coaster
Mark Normand (1:23:48.680)
if you're this short, whatever it is.
Lex Fridman (1:23:50.120)
You know, we do it in some capacity.
Lex Fridman (1:23:52.720)
But here, this would be like fully transparent
Lex Fridman (1:23:57.080)
and to a degree that it's hard to imagine.
Mark Normand (1:24:00.080)
Like the way we currently do it,
Lex Fridman (1:24:02.000)
you can at least get around it.
Mark Normand (1:24:03.760)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (1:24:04.600)
You can at least trick your way onto the roller coaster
Mark Normand (1:24:07.000)
even if you're short.
Lex Fridman (1:24:08.180)
Right.
Mark Normand (1:24:09.020)
Or the fat guy can get rich so he can get laid.
Lex Fridman (1:24:11.280)
You know, there's other ways.
Mark Normand (1:24:14.500)
At the risk of asking the totally wrong person
Lex Fridman (1:24:16.640)
this question, what advice would you give
Mark Normand (1:24:19.600)
to young people today in high school and college
Lex Fridman (1:24:23.080)
about how to have a successful career
Mark Normand (1:24:26.820)
or career they're proud of
Lex Fridman (1:24:28.640)
or maybe have a life that they're proud of?
Mark Normand (1:24:30.920)
Ooh.
Lex Fridman (1:24:32.360)
Well, first of all, you gotta be,
Mark Normand (1:24:34.280)
you gotta want a life you're proud of.
Lex Fridman (1:24:35.800)
Not everybody has any integrity.
Mark Normand (1:24:38.400)
A lot of people just want short money.
Lex Fridman (1:24:40.540)
I wanna feel good, look good right now.
Lex Fridman (1:24:44.680)
I wanna do Molly, boom, I'll feel good, you know?
Lex Fridman (1:24:47.360)
But you should space it out.
Mark Normand (1:24:50.120)
You should, it's almost like saving money
Lex Fridman (1:24:51.900)
so you can use it later.
Mark Normand (1:24:53.200)
Nobody wants to save money.
Lex Fridman (1:24:54.360)
What do they say, like 11% of America
Lex Fridman (1:24:56.000)
actually has money saved, $1,000 or some shit?
Lex Fridman (1:24:59.320)
It's wildly low.
Lex Fridman (1:25:01.480)
Everybody wants it now, now, what do you call it?
Lex Fridman (1:25:04.280)
Immediate gratification.
Mark Normand (1:25:06.160)
I think the key to happiness and satisfaction
Lex Fridman (1:25:10.280)
is working for something.
Mark Normand (1:25:12.480)
Even if it's, it's like a baby.
Lex Fridman (1:25:14.920)
If you could have a baby in five minutes,
Mark Normand (1:25:16.600)
if a woman, you got a, you jizzed in her
Lex Fridman (1:25:18.720)
and she had a baby, oop, five minutes, boom.
Mark Normand (1:25:21.320)
Newborn, healthy.
Lex Fridman (1:25:23.120)
I think you'd be more likely to throw it away
Mark Normand (1:25:25.800)
if you could make it that quick.
Lex Fridman (1:25:27.200)
It's the fact that you spent nine months backbreaking
Mark Normand (1:25:30.400)
the labor, the lactating, the ripped placenta
Lex Fridman (1:25:33.920)
and the hymen or whatever the fuck.
Mark Normand (1:25:36.040)
That's what makes you love it.
Lex Fridman (1:25:37.600)
And I think it's the same with comedy
Mark Normand (1:25:38.840)
or making money or whatever.
Lex Fridman (1:25:41.460)
Look at these kids who like child stars.
Mark Normand (1:25:43.720)
They all become heroin addicts at like 22
Lex Fridman (1:25:46.080)
because they've just, their sensors are burned out.
Mark Normand (1:25:48.400)
Their pleasure sensors.
Lex Fridman (1:25:49.480)
You didn't have to earn it.
Mark Normand (1:25:51.360)
I think earning it is a big part of life
Lex Fridman (1:25:53.720)
and always try to do better, try to do more,
Mark Normand (1:25:56.600)
try to learn new things.
Lex Fridman (1:25:58.160)
Hey, I'm bored.
Mark Normand (1:25:59.560)
Life sucks.
Lex Fridman (1:26:00.720)
Play the piano then you chooch.
Lex Fridman (1:26:02.600)
But you won't do it because it takes effort
Lex Fridman (1:26:05.060)
and failure and all that.
Lex Fridman (1:26:06.680)
But that's the good part.
Lex Fridman (1:26:08.400)
And I know it's hard to see.
Lex Fridman (1:26:10.260)
So I think that's a good key to life
Lex Fridman (1:26:13.820)
is work hard at something you care about
Lex Fridman (1:26:16.020)
and then love the result.
Lex Fridman (1:26:18.640)
The hard work, the journey is actually way more important
Mark Normand (1:26:22.760)
than just getting something.
Lex Fridman (1:26:23.960)
Everybody wants to go on Amazon.
Mark Normand (1:26:25.400)
I got a package.
Lex Fridman (1:26:26.320)
Then you feel good for 10 seconds
Lex Fridman (1:26:27.800)
and all right, let's go on Amazon again.
Lex Fridman (1:26:29.800)
And then it's just a dumb cycle
Mark Normand (1:26:31.760)
of you being disgusting and gluttonous.
Lex Fridman (1:26:35.500)
So work for it.
Mark Normand (1:26:36.960)
Everybody wants to take steroids and just boop, I'm buff.
Lex Fridman (1:26:39.900)
Why'd you point at me?
Mark Normand (1:26:40.840)
Well, I'm just saying.
Lex Fridman (1:26:41.660)
Because I'm Russian or what?
Mark Normand (1:26:42.500)
Well, I saw the Icarus.
Lex Fridman (1:26:45.560)
But no, I'm not saying you're on roids.
Mark Normand (1:26:47.360)
I'm just, you'd be way bigger.
Lex Fridman (1:26:48.840)
But I'm just saying, you know, work for something.
Lex Fridman (1:26:52.560)
And then I would also, young people eat shit early.
Lex Fridman (1:26:56.560)
Eat shit early.
Mark Normand (1:26:57.820)
I know a guy who kind of got canceled or whatever
Lex Fridman (1:27:00.780)
and he had an out early, but he tried to get by
Lex Fridman (1:27:03.360)
and he tried to ride it and it all came crumbling down.
Lex Fridman (1:27:07.240)
But if he had eaten it early, like, yeah, I fucked up.
Mark Normand (1:27:09.440)
I did that.
Lex Fridman (1:27:10.640)
Whatever it was, he would've just kind of been shit on
Mark Normand (1:27:14.600)
for a month and then it would've gone away.
Lex Fridman (1:27:17.560)
But now it's his whole identity and that sucks.
Lex Fridman (1:27:19.960)
So eat shit early.
Lex Fridman (1:27:21.080)
And I know it's hard to see, what do you mean early?
Mark Normand (1:27:23.280)
I'm in the present.
Lex Fridman (1:27:24.560)
But look ahead, look back, this time will pass.
Mark Normand (1:27:28.280)
I mean, look at high school.
Lex Fridman (1:27:29.640)
High school was the biggest thing in our lives.
Mark Normand (1:27:31.320)
Oh my God, this exam, Susie Q hates me.
Lex Fridman (1:27:33.940)
The football player beat me up.
Mark Normand (1:27:35.360)
Oh, I'll never recover.
Lex Fridman (1:27:36.640)
Now you don't even think about high school.
Lex Fridman (1:27:37.700)
It's just a blip in your dumb life, you know?
Lex Fridman (1:27:40.320)
And that's what this is now.
Mark Normand (1:27:41.400)
This will just be a blip.
Lex Fridman (1:27:42.560)
So remember that and work towards something
Lex Fridman (1:27:46.180)
and work hard and care about the result.
Lex Fridman (1:27:50.520)
If the result isn't good, try it again.
Lex Fridman (1:27:52.160)
And failure is not always bad.
Lex Fridman (1:27:53.840)
Failure, we look at failure as this end all, be all.
Mark Normand (1:27:56.720)
My life's over, I failed.
Lex Fridman (1:27:58.880)
But failure is really just learning.
Lex Fridman (1:28:01.120)
So that's something.
Lex Fridman (1:28:01.960)
So in summary, eat shit early and eat shit often.
Mark Normand (1:28:06.720)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (1:28:07.800)
All right, Mark Norman.
Mark Normand (1:28:09.840)
Eat ass.
Lex Fridman (1:28:11.040)
That's escalated quickly.
Mark Normand (1:28:13.080)
All right, I have a list of random questions for you.
Lex Fridman (1:28:16.960)
What activities make you lose track of time?
Mark Normand (1:28:19.500)
Oh.
Lex Fridman (1:28:21.920)
Have that go into that zone.
Mark Normand (1:28:24.280)
You have this happiness, contentment about you
Lex Fridman (1:28:26.960)
that you just truly enjoy.
Mark Normand (1:28:28.820)
Yeah, I think a good conversation.
Lex Fridman (1:28:31.240)
Like I'll sit at the comedy cellar with friends,
Mark Normand (1:28:34.360)
maybe a little whiskey's flowing.
Lex Fridman (1:28:36.700)
And when you're really just vibing
Lex Fridman (1:28:38.520)
and inhibiting.
Lex Fridman (1:28:41.680)
You can do it.
Lex Fridman (1:28:42.520)
What is it?
Lex Fridman (1:28:43.360)
Inhibited. Inhibited.
Mark Normand (1:28:44.680)
Uninhibited. Uninhibited.
Lex Fridman (1:28:45.840)
When you're just vibing and you're uninhibited
Lex Fridman (1:28:47.560)
and you're saying crazy shit and you're laughing
Lex Fridman (1:28:49.520)
and you're not worried, am I seeming cool right now?
Lex Fridman (1:28:51.480)
Am I seeming likable?
Lex Fridman (1:28:52.820)
When you're just you 100% and it's all coming out of you
Lex Fridman (1:28:56.000)
and then they're saying stuff and you go back and forth
Lex Fridman (1:28:58.040)
and you feel that excitement.
Mark Normand (1:28:59.240)
Oh, they're talking, but I wanna say my thing.
Lex Fridman (1:29:00.800)
And you get all peed up.
Mark Normand (1:29:02.560)
I love that.
Lex Fridman (1:29:03.400)
And I look at my watch, I'm like, fuck,
Mark Normand (1:29:04.720)
it's three in the morning.
Lex Fridman (1:29:05.960)
We've been talking for five hours.
Lex Fridman (1:29:07.720)
So I love that.
Lex Fridman (1:29:09.040)
That makes the time fly by.
Mark Normand (1:29:10.840)
Also, I bought a, speaking of self driving cars,
Lex Fridman (1:29:13.320)
I bought a 1973 BMW car and it's classic
Lex Fridman (1:29:18.920)
and it's stick shift and it's grizzly and gritty and rusty
Lex Fridman (1:29:24.120)
and it's a bucket of bolts, but I love driving it.
Mark Normand (1:29:26.480)
Bucket of bolts.
Lex Fridman (1:29:27.760)
Yeah.
Mark Normand (1:29:28.600)
You and Tom Waits are poets.
Lex Fridman (1:29:29.800)
Have you taken like a long trip anywhere,
Lex Fridman (1:29:32.360)
like road trip in your life or with this BMW?
Lex Fridman (1:29:35.920)
Not with it, it's pretty new,
Lex Fridman (1:29:37.600)
but I will.
Lex Fridman (1:29:38.440)
It's a new 97.
Mark Normand (1:29:39.760)
Yeah, it's new to me.
Lex Fridman (1:29:42.000)
And it goes in the phase of everything we're doing now.
Mark Normand (1:29:45.480)
Everything is digital, everything is automated,
Lex Fridman (1:29:47.120)
everything is hands off, everything is delivered.
Lex Fridman (1:29:49.960)
And this is the most hands on thing in the world.
Lex Fridman (1:29:52.720)
And I am dialed in, man.
Mark Normand (1:29:54.160)
I got the tachometer, I keep an eye on that.
Lex Fridman (1:29:56.280)
Oh, I put the wrong gear in, shit.
Mark Normand (1:29:58.440)
Oh, it's about to stall, put some gas, put some clutch.
Lex Fridman (1:30:00.920)
And it's all just brain power and staying in focus
Lex Fridman (1:30:05.920)
and all that, and it's the opposite of tweeting
Lex Fridman (1:30:08.680)
and texting and watching porn or whatever.
Lex Fridman (1:30:11.800)
So I almost needed that in my life,
Lex Fridman (1:30:14.120)
so I bought this car just to have this little exercise.
Mark Normand (1:30:19.280)
I hope you don't mind that I'm just trying out
Lex Fridman (1:30:21.080)
random questions I wrote on you that are completely insane.
Mark Normand (1:30:25.800)
I'm a guinea pig, jizz in my face.
Lex Fridman (1:30:27.720)
Bring it on, baby.
Mark Normand (1:30:30.080)
This would be edited down to five minutes.
Lex Fridman (1:30:32.520)
If everyone on earth disappeared
Lex Fridman (1:30:34.520)
and it was just you left, what would your days look like?
Lex Fridman (1:30:39.640)
What would you do?
Mark Normand (1:30:40.760)
That's tough, because I'm already an introvert
Lex Fridman (1:30:43.480)
and I try to avoid people mostly.
Mark Normand (1:30:45.520)
Like I like a one on one, but crowds and all that is tough.
Lex Fridman (1:30:50.520)
So.
Lex Fridman (1:30:51.360)
So basically unchanged?
Lex Fridman (1:30:52.600)
Yeah, that's what I was gonna say,
Lex Fridman (1:30:53.920)
but then that's the irony is I would be so sad
Lex Fridman (1:30:56.280)
to not talk to anybody.
Lex Fridman (1:30:57.200)
So it's this weird, bittersweet thing,
Lex Fridman (1:30:59.720)
but I don't know what I would do, man.
Mark Normand (1:31:01.960)
I guess it's kind of like when you're hung over,
Lex Fridman (1:31:03.960)
you just go into the primal survival mode.
Mark Normand (1:31:06.920)
I gotta get food, I need water, I'm horny, jerk off.
Lex Fridman (1:31:12.480)
You just go, you're not like playing the piano
Mark Normand (1:31:15.000)
or painting or at the gym.
Lex Fridman (1:31:17.800)
So I think I would just go into urges, man, primal urges.
Lex Fridman (1:31:21.320)
Find food, store food, am I safe?
Lex Fridman (1:31:24.800)
Make weapons, build a shelter that I can't get attacked in.
Mark Normand (1:31:28.800)
I would go all survival mode.
Lex Fridman (1:31:30.320)
And then once I maybe realized if I was safe or not,
Mark Normand (1:31:33.200)
there's no wild roaming dogs, I would start exploring.
Lex Fridman (1:31:37.040)
And maybe somehow get a vehicle and I would try to expand
Lex Fridman (1:31:42.080)
and that would be it.
Lex Fridman (1:31:43.880)
And maybe I'd journal.
Lex Fridman (1:31:45.200)
Exploring to what, to try to find new experiences?
Lex Fridman (1:31:49.280)
New life, if there's other,
Mark Normand (1:31:51.320)
maybe there is another guy out there.
Lex Fridman (1:31:53.160)
Oh, so always there's a possibility.
Mark Normand (1:31:55.720)
Yeah, hope.
Lex Fridman (1:31:56.840)
Hope.
Lex Fridman (1:31:57.680)
And then maybe there's a better place I could live.
Lex Fridman (1:31:58.920)
Let's find that and then moving on.
Mark Normand (1:32:01.080)
Maybe there's more food over here.
Lex Fridman (1:32:02.160)
So yeah, the hope would drive me.
Lex Fridman (1:32:04.480)
But it would be bleak and sad and horrible also.
Lex Fridman (1:32:07.220)
So what you're saying is you really want other people
Lex Fridman (1:32:09.820)
to be there so you can hide from them, isn't it?
Lex Fridman (1:32:11.800)
Yes, yes, well said.
Mark Normand (1:32:15.000)
All right, what's an item on your bucket list
Lex Fridman (1:32:17.840)
that you haven't done yet?
Mark Normand (1:32:20.120)
Think about something you'd be very upset if you died
Lex Fridman (1:32:23.600)
and you haven't done.
Mark Normand (1:32:24.700)
Well, I'm terrified of having kids,
Lex Fridman (1:32:27.240)
just because I'm a child myself
Lex Fridman (1:32:28.760)
and I'm selfish and lazy in a way.
Lex Fridman (1:32:31.900)
So kids are like, this is your whole life now, this is it.
Mark Normand (1:32:34.560)
You gotta not let this thing die.
Lex Fridman (1:32:35.880)
You gotta love it, you gotta raise it.
Lex Fridman (1:32:37.940)
So kids scare the shit out of me,
Lex Fridman (1:32:39.500)
but I also feel like if I don't have them, I'll regret it.
Mark Normand (1:32:43.840)
Well, you've seen so many people like you
Lex Fridman (1:32:46.800)
who are fundamentally changed by kids.
Mark Normand (1:32:48.940)
Like it's a source, it's a source of,
Lex Fridman (1:32:52.600)
like a deep source of happiness,
Mark Normand (1:32:54.160)
even though you didn't anticipate it.
Lex Fridman (1:32:55.860)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:32:57.280)
So you like, you penciled it into your bucket list.
Lex Fridman (1:32:59.800)
Yes, yes.
Mark Normand (1:33:01.080)
You're, it might be on there.
Lex Fridman (1:33:02.680)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:33:03.640)
You want kids?
Lex Fridman (1:33:04.520)
Yeah, well, I want kids.
Mark Normand (1:33:06.960)
I wanna get married, I wanna have kids.
Lex Fridman (1:33:10.080)
I kind of, I don't like choice.
Lex Fridman (1:33:13.920)
So in the following way,
Lex Fridman (1:33:15.640)
like I appreciate the value of scarcity
Lex Fridman (1:33:18.520)
and the power of scarcity.
Lex Fridman (1:33:19.560)
Like I don't like the modern dating culture.
Mark Normand (1:33:22.160)
It's not some religious thing or whatever.
Lex Fridman (1:33:23.640)
I just like one girl for a long time
Mark Normand (1:33:27.240)
or at least swinging for that always,
Lex Fridman (1:33:28.680)
like swinging for the fences.
Mark Normand (1:33:30.240)
You could be swinging right now.
Lex Fridman (1:33:31.720)
I mean, you're.
Mark Normand (1:33:32.560)
There's a different use of the word swinging.
Lex Fridman (1:33:34.000)
Sure, sure.
Lex Fridman (1:33:34.840)
What I'm saying, you could be clear.
Lex Fridman (1:33:35.960)
You look great, you're handsome.
Mark Normand (1:33:37.620)
Yeah, thank you.
Lex Fridman (1:33:38.460)
Muscular.
Mark Normand (1:33:39.280)
Thank you.
Lex Fridman (1:33:40.120)
You get the job done.
Lex Fridman (1:33:40.960)
So I feel like you wouldn't leave without an orgasm on her.
Lex Fridman (1:33:42.620)
Yeah, but I just like to, you know, about furries.
Mark Normand (1:33:45.440)
I like to dress up as animals
Lex Fridman (1:33:46.800)
and I just have trouble finding others who like the same.
Mark Normand (1:33:50.040)
They're up there.
Lex Fridman (1:33:50.880)
I could show you some chat rooms.
Mark Normand (1:33:52.320)
You're also my coach for the internet.
Lex Fridman (1:33:54.080)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:33:54.920)
What are you most afraid of?
Lex Fridman (1:34:00.280)
I guess on Unlived Life.
Mark Normand (1:34:03.000)
I was a big fan growing up of like wild guys, you know,
Lex Fridman (1:34:07.860)
like these Teddy Roosevelt's who would go out
Lex Fridman (1:34:10.160)
and hunt lions and like bar fighting guys.
Lex Fridman (1:34:14.520)
I was obsessed with the Hunter S. Thompson types.
Lex Fridman (1:34:17.520)
And look, this is what I love about guys like,
Lex Fridman (1:34:21.920)
who's a good example?
Mark Normand (1:34:23.540)
Like Hemingway.
Lex Fridman (1:34:24.720)
Hemingway was the manliest guy.
Mark Normand (1:34:26.400)
He had the rifle and the elephant gun and the whiskey
Lex Fridman (1:34:28.840)
and the writing and the women and the fist fights.
Lex Fridman (1:34:31.680)
But people forget that the other side of that coin
Lex Fridman (1:34:33.920)
is I'm sure he was in a lot of hotel rooms weeping.
Mark Normand (1:34:36.220)
I'm sure he was lonely as fuck.
Lex Fridman (1:34:37.760)
I'm sure he had some wicked hangovers.
Mark Normand (1:34:39.320)
I mean, he killed himself for Christ's sake.
Lex Fridman (1:34:40.680)
So obviously he was dealing with something.
Lex Fridman (1:34:42.920)
So the key to me is having this adventurous life,
Lex Fridman (1:34:46.740)
living to the fullest, doing crazy shit, scaring yourself,
Lex Fridman (1:34:50.240)
but also not killing yourself.
Lex Fridman (1:34:52.520)
Like also not hating,
Mark Normand (1:34:54.040)
because I used to party a lot hard.
Lex Fridman (1:34:56.160)
I used to bang a lot of gals.
Lex Fridman (1:34:58.860)
And the flip side is like, this girl hates you now,
Lex Fridman (1:35:02.320)
or you got herpes or you're hungover,
Lex Fridman (1:35:04.880)
or your mom is like, where are you?
Lex Fridman (1:35:06.520)
You never call me anymore.
Mark Normand (1:35:07.520)
You're like, oh, my mom, let ties go with my mom.
Lex Fridman (1:35:10.880)
I gotta connect.
Lex Fridman (1:35:11.840)
So there's a horrible side to the party animal.
Lex Fridman (1:35:14.720)
The Keith Richards we don't see is not pretty.
Mark Normand (1:35:18.440)
I mean, he's already weird looking,
Lex Fridman (1:35:20.160)
but he's partying, he's smoking, he's living.
Lex Fridman (1:35:23.140)
But there's another side of that coin.
Lex Fridman (1:35:25.340)
And I think the key to life
Mark Normand (1:35:26.560)
is living that fucking crazy, awesome, badass life,
Lex Fridman (1:35:30.000)
and also having some meaning
Lex Fridman (1:35:34.840)
and a little bit of, what's the word?
Lex Fridman (1:35:38.360)
Not just not killing yourself,
Mark Normand (1:35:39.880)
not going sad, not being depressed.
Lex Fridman (1:35:42.120)
There's a medium there, a sweet spot.
Lex Fridman (1:35:45.000)
Does that make sense?
Lex Fridman (1:35:45.940)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:35:46.780)
So taking big leaps and Hemingway,
Lex Fridman (1:35:51.780)
grabbing life by the balls,
Lex Fridman (1:35:53.080)
but at the same time, not crushing the balls,
Lex Fridman (1:35:54.720)
does that metaphor work at all?
Mark Normand (1:35:56.520)
Perfect, like Evel Knievel, we all know him.
Lex Fridman (1:35:59.160)
What a badass, fearless, oh, man, what a cool dude.
Mark Normand (1:36:02.240)
He's got balls of steel.
Lex Fridman (1:36:03.760)
But he also lived the back half of his life
Mark Normand (1:36:05.880)
in a fucking barka lounger
Lex Fridman (1:36:08.720)
where his legs were made of steel
Lex Fridman (1:36:10.160)
and he couldn't see straight and his dick didn't work.
Lex Fridman (1:36:13.120)
So you know what I mean?
Mark Normand (1:36:15.520)
You gotta have a balance, but you still want the balance.
Lex Fridman (1:36:18.120)
I'm willing to take a little bit of shit
Mark Normand (1:36:20.840)
for a little bit of fun,
Lex Fridman (1:36:23.480)
but you don't want to go too hard.
Mark Normand (1:36:25.920)
Well, you gotta still risk it.
Lex Fridman (1:36:27.120)
I mean, Hunter S. Thompson, it didn't end well.
Mark Normand (1:36:30.400)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:36:31.240)
But it was quite a ride.
Mark Normand (1:36:32.160)
Quite a ride.
Lex Fridman (1:36:34.280)
What small act of kindness were you once shown
Lex Fridman (1:36:36.840)
that you will never forget?
Lex Fridman (1:36:39.960)
Wow, that's a great question.
Mark Normand (1:36:43.360)
I just wrote these for the guinea pig.
Lex Fridman (1:36:44.960)
You're the guinea pig.
Mark Normand (1:36:45.800)
That's great, that's a keeper.
Lex Fridman (1:36:46.960)
Keep that question. Okay, that's a keeper?
Mark Normand (1:36:48.080)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:36:48.920)
This is where we're like workshopping questions here.
Mark Normand (1:36:50.200)
All right, I'll take it.
Lex Fridman (1:36:51.360)
Now you're open biking.
Mark Normand (1:36:52.480)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:36:53.320)
This is your version.
Mark Normand (1:36:55.240)
Let's see, there's a couple ladies in high school
Lex Fridman (1:36:57.560)
who were kind enough to hand job me.
Mark Normand (1:36:59.920)
That was nice, which I really appreciate.
Lex Fridman (1:37:01.720)
I don't think women know how much that means to us.
Mark Normand (1:37:04.560)
You know, women are like,
Lex Fridman (1:37:05.400)
oh, I'm not a piece of meat or whatever.
Lex Fridman (1:37:06.720)
And you're like, I know, but if you just gave me a hand job,
Lex Fridman (1:37:10.000)
it would make my world.
Mark Normand (1:37:10.840)
It's like telling a kid he's smart or loved.
Lex Fridman (1:37:13.520)
See, most people mention like a math teacher,
Mark Normand (1:37:15.720)
middle school, that would inspire them to get into science.
Lex Fridman (1:37:19.080)
You give a shout out to the thing.
Mark Normand (1:37:21.200)
Well, that's part of it, that's not the nicest,
Lex Fridman (1:37:23.320)
but I'm just saying that goes a long way.
Mark Normand (1:37:25.160)
All right.
Lex Fridman (1:37:26.120)
Let's see, kindness.
Mark Normand (1:37:27.680)
That's a great question.
Lex Fridman (1:37:31.160)
I wanna give you a good answer.
Mark Normand (1:37:32.880)
I got lost when I was like six.
Lex Fridman (1:37:35.080)
I was walking around my dad and I zoned out and went away.
Lex Fridman (1:37:38.720)
And next thing you know, I don't know where I am.
Lex Fridman (1:37:41.520)
I'm in a neighborhood.
Mark Normand (1:37:42.400)
This old guy finds me crying on a lawn somewhere
Lex Fridman (1:37:45.920)
and he goes, come inside.
Lex Fridman (1:37:47.880)
And he tried to call my parents and nothing came of it.
Lex Fridman (1:37:50.880)
Eventually they found me after like nine hours,
Mark Normand (1:37:53.680)
cops were there, the FBI is out there, fucking helicopters.
Lex Fridman (1:37:57.960)
And I guess, you know, that's nice.
Mark Normand (1:37:59.200)
This old guy took me in for a couple of hours
Lex Fridman (1:38:01.320)
and just sat me down and kept me safe.
Mark Normand (1:38:05.280)
That's something.
Lex Fridman (1:38:06.160)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:38:07.000)
Oh, how about Enis?
Lex Fridman (1:38:08.280)
My transvestite nanny, very kind.
Lex Fridman (1:38:13.800)
He, did you hear about this?
Lex Fridman (1:38:15.400)
No.
Mark Normand (1:38:16.240)
We had this transvestite nanny who was like a drag queen,
Lex Fridman (1:38:19.240)
but it was in the 90s.
Lex Fridman (1:38:20.080)
So it was weird.
Lex Fridman (1:38:20.920)
It was new.
Lex Fridman (1:38:21.880)
And my bike got stolen and he, you know,
Lex Fridman (1:38:25.680)
my parents were like, eh, what are you gonna do?
Lex Fridman (1:38:27.000)
They're poor kids, you know?
Lex Fridman (1:38:28.760)
And he was like, fuck it, we're gonna go get that bike.
Lex Fridman (1:38:31.160)
And I was like, this guy's in a wig and high heels,
Lex Fridman (1:38:33.840)
big black guy.
Lex Fridman (1:38:35.000)
And I'm like, ah, what are you gonna do?
Lex Fridman (1:38:38.200)
You know, it's gone.
Lex Fridman (1:38:39.040)
And he's like, nah, we're gonna go get it.
Lex Fridman (1:38:40.360)
So we got in the van and drove around my neighborhood,
Mark Normand (1:38:44.040)
saw the kids, fuck with the bike, you know,
Lex Fridman (1:38:46.240)
five street tufts.
Lex Fridman (1:38:48.120)
And he goes, all right, you want to come out
Lex Fridman (1:38:51.040)
or should I just do this?
Lex Fridman (1:38:52.040)
And I was like, you do it.
Lex Fridman (1:38:53.120)
I'm terrified.
Lex Fridman (1:38:53.960)
What are you, crazy?
Lex Fridman (1:38:55.000)
And he got out of the van in full, you know,
Mark Normand (1:38:58.760)
heels and wig.
Lex Fridman (1:38:59.960)
And he went up to these guys and they went off.
Mark Normand (1:39:01.920)
Oh my God, look at this fucking guy,
Lex Fridman (1:39:03.600)
homo faggot, all this shit.
Mark Normand (1:39:05.160)
You know, it's the 90s.
Lex Fridman (1:39:06.560)
And he just stared at them long enough
Mark Normand (1:39:09.600)
to where they were kind of like, all right,
Lex Fridman (1:39:10.960)
well, I guess we're gonna fight you now.
Lex Fridman (1:39:12.680)
And he goes, that's not your bike.
Lex Fridman (1:39:14.920)
And they go, what are you gonna do about it?
Lex Fridman (1:39:16.560)
And he puts his hand on the middle of the bike
Lex Fridman (1:39:18.800)
and they didn't do anything.
Lex Fridman (1:39:19.840)
And he just picked it up and said, that's what I thought.
Lex Fridman (1:39:22.480)
Put the bike over his shoulder, slid the van door open,
Mark Normand (1:39:25.320)
threw the bike in and we drove off.
Lex Fridman (1:39:28.200)
Somebody stuck up for you.
Mark Normand (1:39:29.600)
Yeah, and you know, I mean, he could have got,
Lex Fridman (1:39:31.600)
I mean, they had tools.
Mark Normand (1:39:33.080)
They could have fucking tuned him up, two seconds.
Lex Fridman (1:39:36.960)
That actually like takes courage.
Mark Normand (1:39:39.000)
Oh yeah, real courage.
Lex Fridman (1:39:41.240)
And then that, the reason you do an act like that
Mark Normand (1:39:45.040)
is that makes a kid like you feel like
Lex Fridman (1:39:48.760)
there's somebody on your side, that's powerful.
Mark Normand (1:39:51.200)
Someone on your side is big.
Lex Fridman (1:39:52.760)
Is big.
Mark Normand (1:39:53.600)
That goes a long way.
Lex Fridman (1:39:56.400)
Especially when they have the risk
Mark Normand (1:39:57.840)
of getting their ass kicked or their job taken away
Lex Fridman (1:40:00.080)
or whatever it is.
Mark Normand (1:40:01.960)
Now we're gonna get philosophical,
Lex Fridman (1:40:05.400)
maybe a little bit emotional.
Mark Normand (1:40:07.560)
Oh, would you rather lose all your old memories
Lex Fridman (1:40:12.720)
or never be able to make new ones?
Mark Normand (1:40:18.880)
It's a tough one, but I'd go easy answer, make new ones.
Lex Fridman (1:40:22.840)
But don't you think all the shitty things
Lex Fridman (1:40:24.600)
that happen to you?
Lex Fridman (1:40:25.960)
Oh, so my hard drive is wiped clean.
Mark Normand (1:40:27.720)
It's not, is it memories
Lex Fridman (1:40:30.280)
or is it how every memory affected me too?
Mark Normand (1:40:34.200)
I mean, this is a very.
Lex Fridman (1:40:35.720)
Or do they go hand in hand?
Mark Normand (1:40:36.840)
I think the reality about memories
Lex Fridman (1:40:39.400)
is you replay them often.
Mark Normand (1:40:40.740)
You go back to them even when you're not aware of it.
Lex Fridman (1:40:43.560)
You really go, you go back often like that.
Lex Fridman (1:40:46.760)
And they change.
Lex Fridman (1:40:47.600)
You change them too.
Mark Normand (1:40:48.420)
Yeah, you change them to suit your understanding
Lex Fridman (1:40:51.480)
of the world.
Mark Normand (1:40:52.320)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (1:40:53.140)
And so the dark view you have,
Mark Normand (1:40:57.420)
both the hope and the cynicism you have about the world
Lex Fridman (1:40:59.840)
is so deeply grounded in the memories
Mark Normand (1:41:04.300)
that you're basically, I would say,
Lex Fridman (1:41:05.800)
if you erase all memories,
Mark Normand (1:41:08.600)
I think you're really starting over
Lex Fridman (1:41:11.840)
with maybe the wisdom of how the world works,
Lex Fridman (1:41:14.800)
but not so much of your personality is gone.
Lex Fridman (1:41:18.460)
You would really,
Mark Normand (1:41:21.860)
it'd be interesting how your comedy would change.
Lex Fridman (1:41:23.840)
Maybe you would have a good sense of timing.
Mark Normand (1:41:25.540)
You have a good sense of the writing process maybe.
Lex Fridman (1:41:31.360)
But like.
Mark Normand (1:41:33.240)
Now you're making some good points,
Lex Fridman (1:41:34.440)
but let me ask you this.
Mark Normand (1:41:35.280)
Let's say I go to Lake Cuomo with my girlfriend.
Lex Fridman (1:41:39.320)
Now, like I wipe the memory or I keep my old memories.
Mark Normand (1:41:43.000)
Let's say I go to the Tuscany with the lady.
Lex Fridman (1:41:46.920)
I just won't remember that?
Mark Normand (1:41:48.040)
Yeah, but you get to experience it in the moment.
Lex Fridman (1:41:50.000)
Okay.
Mark Normand (1:41:50.840)
You'll get to enjoy it.
Lex Fridman (1:41:51.660)
Can I look at a photo of it?
Mark Normand (1:41:55.000)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (1:41:55.840)
But I would, what the hell is this?
Mark Normand (1:41:56.880)
Yeah, exactly.
Lex Fridman (1:41:57.720)
Oh, fascinating.
Mark Normand (1:41:59.960)
It's exact.
Lex Fridman (1:42:00.800)
The rules are pretty simple.
Mark Normand (1:42:01.960)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:42:02.800)
I think everyone knows how the rules go.
Lex Fridman (1:42:04.300)
So you would, yeah, so what?
Lex Fridman (1:42:06.640)
Well, I was gonna say start new ones,
Lex Fridman (1:42:08.540)
but then I realized I wouldn't be who I was without them.
Lex Fridman (1:42:11.360)
That's what you're saying.
Lex Fridman (1:42:12.200)
So I guess I'd keep them.
Lex Fridman (1:42:14.040)
Cause I am 38, so I've gotten a good chunk out of life.
Mark Normand (1:42:17.800)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:42:18.640)
And let's be honest, how many years do you have left?
Lex Fridman (1:42:20.940)
I know, right?
Lex Fridman (1:42:21.780)
I got AIDS.
Mark Normand (1:42:23.780)
Is it better to have loved,
Lex Fridman (1:42:25.420)
okay, this question is ridiculous.
Mark Normand (1:42:26.960)
Is it better to have loved than lost
Lex Fridman (1:42:29.120)
or to have never loved at all?
Mark Normand (1:42:31.320)
It sounds cliche, but there's a question.
Lex Fridman (1:42:34.560)
Definitely better to loss.
Lex Fridman (1:42:36.760)
So you enjoy the ups and downs.
Lex Fridman (1:42:38.440)
Yeah, that's life.
Mark Normand (1:42:40.760)
We're sun and rain, baby.
Lex Fridman (1:42:44.020)
I kind of like both, the whole thing.
Mark Normand (1:42:45.720)
The loss, every time you lose something,
Lex Fridman (1:42:49.140)
it really makes you distinctly realize
Lex Fridman (1:42:52.800)
how much you valued it.
Lex Fridman (1:42:54.240)
Yes.
Mark Normand (1:42:55.080)
Like when I'm feeling alone and I'm sitting there alone
Lex Fridman (1:43:02.600)
at home and I wish I could hang out with somebody,
Mark Normand (1:43:06.720)
that's like a realization how awesome people are.
Lex Fridman (1:43:10.560)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:43:11.680)
So it's like the missing, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:43:15.560)
We don't have a lot of that in life anymore
Mark Normand (1:43:17.320)
because we can have anything we want immediately.
Lex Fridman (1:43:19.360)
So the missing has gone away,
Mark Normand (1:43:20.720)
which again drives down the joy of having it.
Lex Fridman (1:43:25.280)
So I think you're right, you need both.
Lex Fridman (1:43:29.280)
So like you said, you have a terminal condition,
Lex Fridman (1:43:32.800)
not many years left.
Lex Fridman (1:43:34.340)
Do you think about your mortality?
Lex Fridman (1:43:35.680)
You think about that?
Mark Normand (1:43:37.760)
All day, every day.
Lex Fridman (1:43:38.720)
Are you afraid?
Mark Normand (1:43:40.480)
Not afraid, because it's inevitable.
Lex Fridman (1:43:42.400)
So it's more like, how are we gonna handle this?
Mark Normand (1:43:46.600)
It's like the winter is coming,
Lex Fridman (1:43:47.720)
let's stock up on some fucking nuts.
Lex Fridman (1:43:50.240)
But the existential nature of it,
Lex Fridman (1:43:51.640)
like the fact that this ride ends,
Lex Fridman (1:43:53.480)
like what the hell are you doing any of this for?
Lex Fridman (1:43:55.440)
Like, is it your?
Mark Normand (1:43:56.520)
Satisfaction, happiness.
Lex Fridman (1:43:58.560)
Short term, but like there is a presumption there
Mark Normand (1:44:02.480)
that it kind of goes on forever.
Lex Fridman (1:44:04.360)
I think if you truly think about the fact that it ends.
Mark Normand (1:44:08.800)
Your brain almost shuts it down.
Lex Fridman (1:44:10.800)
Yeah, there's some kind of like protective like switch
Mark Normand (1:44:14.280)
that just goes off.
Lex Fridman (1:44:15.380)
I mean, that's why the Stoics encourage people
Mark Normand (1:44:19.320)
to meditate on death,
Lex Fridman (1:44:20.640)
because it somehow reorganizes your priorities.
Mark Normand (1:44:24.080)
It helps you like, holy shit,
Lex Fridman (1:44:26.200)
this ends, make the most of the day.
Mark Normand (1:44:28.840)
It's just a nice thing,
Lex Fridman (1:44:29.960)
but still you can't quite comprehend that the thing ends.
Mark Normand (1:44:34.320)
Little things too.
Lex Fridman (1:44:35.240)
People go like, oh, we got a layover between our flights.
Lex Fridman (1:44:38.660)
It's an hour, what are we gonna do for an hour?
Lex Fridman (1:44:40.400)
It's like, what do you mean,
Lex Fridman (1:44:41.360)
what are you gonna do for an hour?
Lex Fridman (1:44:42.520)
You're gonna kill an hour.
Lex Fridman (1:44:44.240)
How are we gonna kill this hour?
Lex Fridman (1:44:46.320)
This is part of your life.
Mark Normand (1:44:47.360)
You're just trying to get rid of it,
Lex Fridman (1:44:48.200)
you're just trying to kill it.
Mark Normand (1:44:49.160)
That always blew my mind.
Lex Fridman (1:44:50.200)
Like, hey, fuck it, let's go hit the airport bar.
Mark Normand (1:44:52.840)
Let's get a candy bar or something, anything with bar.
Lex Fridman (1:44:57.140)
But it's just, you've gotta live.
Lex Fridman (1:45:00.480)
I hate this like, how are we gonna burn?
Lex Fridman (1:45:01.960)
Oh, the bar didn't open for 15 minutes.
Lex Fridman (1:45:04.160)
What are we gonna do?
Lex Fridman (1:45:05.000)
Well, we got 15 minutes.
Mark Normand (1:45:06.320)
The world is our oyster.
Lex Fridman (1:45:07.600)
Yeah, make the most of it.
Lex Fridman (1:45:09.160)
And like you said, in modern day,
Lex Fridman (1:45:11.880)
actually the boredom is a gift.
Mark Normand (1:45:13.740)
Like when you're waiting for something, that's a gift.
Lex Fridman (1:45:18.460)
You get to be with your thoughts.
Mark Normand (1:45:20.400)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:45:21.360)
Those are the same thoughts you'll have
Mark Normand (1:45:22.760)
when you're on your deathbed.
Lex Fridman (1:45:24.400)
There won't be a, you won't be scrolling TikTok
Mark Normand (1:45:28.680)
on your deathbed.
Lex Fridman (1:45:29.700)
I hope not, Jesus.
Mark Normand (1:45:30.760)
You'd be a lot more, actually maybe you would be.
Lex Fridman (1:45:33.200)
What a sad existence.
Mark Normand (1:45:34.160)
Because it would be a good,
Lex Fridman (1:45:35.920)
like content creators would be like,
Mark Normand (1:45:37.440)
ooh, I'm dying, this would be good content.
Lex Fridman (1:45:39.360)
Yeah, I wanna be able to sure,
Mark Normand (1:45:42.080)
film the exact moment it goes, beep.
Lex Fridman (1:45:44.440)
Like last words, I wonder what my last words will be.
Mark Normand (1:45:47.440)
It'd be a good way to like end the account with a bang.
Lex Fridman (1:45:50.920)
Yep, I like that.
Mark Normand (1:45:52.360)
Well, you know that you ever seen that meme
Lex Fridman (1:45:53.620)
where the old guy in bed, he goes,
Mark Normand (1:45:54.700)
I wish I had tweeted more, you know, and then he dies.
Lex Fridman (1:45:58.520)
It's so true.
Mark Normand (1:45:59.480)
Could be the future.
Lex Fridman (1:46:00.700)
What do you think is the meaning of life?
Mark Normand (1:46:04.540)
I don't think there is one.
Lex Fridman (1:46:06.100)
Everybody always throws that out there.
Mark Normand (1:46:07.840)
There isn't a meaning.
Lex Fridman (1:46:08.680)
I think we're here, we're lucky to be here.
Mark Normand (1:46:11.120)
I think there's no afterlife, there's no heaven.
Lex Fridman (1:46:13.040)
That's all shit we tell ourselves to feel better.
Lex Fridman (1:46:16.080)
And I think you gotta just, it's like saying,
Lex Fridman (1:46:18.520)
what is the meaning of this food I made?
Mark Normand (1:46:23.280)
Well, it's just you enjoy the food,
Lex Fridman (1:46:25.100)
you try to get the most out of it.
Mark Normand (1:46:26.520)
You built the food, you prepared it.
Lex Fridman (1:46:30.080)
So just get what you can out of it.
Mark Normand (1:46:33.440)
Don't die and try to make it last as long as possible.
Lex Fridman (1:46:38.560)
Yeah, but you look at Earth,
Mark Normand (1:46:39.840)
it's like 4 billion years old.
Lex Fridman (1:46:42.520)
And life started early on, like simple cell bacteria life,
Mark Normand (1:46:47.520)
like 1 billion years in.
Lex Fridman (1:46:49.800)
And then it started like having lots
Mark Normand (1:46:51.820)
of aggressive interaction.
Lex Fridman (1:46:54.800)
Eventually there's predator and prey and there's sex,
Mark Normand (1:46:57.280)
lots of sex, lots of sex, lots of violence.
Lex Fridman (1:47:00.200)
Oh yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:47:01.440)
And then, you know, through natural selection,
Lex Fridman (1:47:03.760)
there's just the whole evolutionary process of animals
Mark Normand (1:47:07.480)
that have loved and lost and murdered and gotten murdered
Lex Fridman (1:47:11.240)
and all that kind of stuff.
Lex Fridman (1:47:12.080)
And it's somehow led to human civilization.
Lex Fridman (1:47:14.400)
We're super busy trying to create things
Lex Fridman (1:47:17.120)
and creating beautiful art, creating beautiful comedy.
Lex Fridman (1:47:21.460)
Just always creating something new.
Mark Normand (1:47:23.640)
It feels like it's tending towards something, like.
Lex Fridman (1:47:26.440)
It's not dying.
Mark Normand (1:47:28.560)
If you die tomorrow, you still have all these hours of pods.
Lex Fridman (1:47:31.800)
So it's kind of, you think you're cheating death
Mark Normand (1:47:33.680)
in a subconscious way, I think.
Lex Fridman (1:47:35.680)
Right, you know who Ernest Becker is and?
Mark Normand (1:47:38.560)
I've heard the name.
Lex Fridman (1:47:39.560)
It's a book called Denial of Death,
Mark Normand (1:47:42.080)
this idea that if you don't acknowledge.
Lex Fridman (1:47:46.320)
Books on my shelf.
Mark Normand (1:47:48.640)
Girls love it.
Lex Fridman (1:47:49.480)
Like Dostoevsky.
Mark Normand (1:47:51.160)
No, I'm just, I'm saying.
Lex Fridman (1:47:53.400)
You want to bring Tolstoy, Dostoevsky?
Mark Normand (1:47:54.960)
Russian literature, it's back to norm.
Lex Fridman (1:47:57.120)
It's good to bring to,
Mark Normand (1:47:58.760)
because no American has read any Russian literature,
Lex Fridman (1:48:02.400)
but they all appreciate it if you bring it.
Lex Fridman (1:48:04.560)
And it's not like they're going to ask you
Lex Fridman (1:48:05.840)
any legitimate questions because they haven't read it.
Lex Fridman (1:48:08.000)
So you can always pretend like you've read it, so.
Lex Fridman (1:48:10.360)
It's a little dense.
Lex Fridman (1:48:12.280)
Can we get a shortened version?
Lex Fridman (1:48:14.320)
Cliff notes.
Mark Normand (1:48:15.160)
Yes, or make a movie with, you know, Ben Stiller
Lex Fridman (1:48:18.360)
that I can just go, oh, this is based on,
Lex Fridman (1:48:21.320)
what is it, life and death?
Lex Fridman (1:48:23.280)
No, what's the one?
Mark Normand (1:48:24.120)
War and peace.
Lex Fridman (1:48:24.960)
War and peace, yeah.
Mark Normand (1:48:26.560)
Yeah, so Ernest Becker's theory,
Lex Fridman (1:48:28.760)
and there's this whole terror management theory
Mark Normand (1:48:31.200)
that basically says that like our terror of death,
Lex Fridman (1:48:34.480)
our fear of death is one of the central creative forces
Mark Normand (1:48:39.040)
of the human condition.
Lex Fridman (1:48:40.280)
It's the reason we're trying to, yeah, cheat death.
Mark Normand (1:48:43.240)
We're trying to dilute ourself
Lex Fridman (1:48:44.880)
that somehow we can become immortal through our art.
Mark Normand (1:48:47.520)
That's why you've uploaded your special to YouTube
Lex Fridman (1:48:49.680)
because you think your special
Mark Normand (1:48:52.320)
will outlive all of human civilization.
Lex Fridman (1:48:54.560)
You think YouTube will outlive all of human civilization.
Mark Normand (1:48:57.320)
That could go away tomorrow.
Lex Fridman (1:48:58.560)
That can go away tomorrow.
Mark Normand (1:49:00.240)
All of this can go away.
Lex Fridman (1:49:01.520)
So I'm truly grateful.
Mark Normand (1:49:04.320)
Mr. Mark Norman, that you would spend
Lex Fridman (1:49:06.840)
your very valuable time with me today
Mark Normand (1:49:09.040)
even though it could all go away.
Lex Fridman (1:49:10.480)
This could be the last day of our lives,
Lex Fridman (1:49:12.520)
and won't you be quite upset that this is how you spent it?
Lex Fridman (1:49:16.280)
Ah, yeah, in your hotel room, what am I?
Mark Normand (1:49:18.880)
You're like Harvey Weinstein here.
Lex Fridman (1:49:20.160)
You poured me up, and now I feel fucked.
Mark Normand (1:49:23.320)
Just wait, what we have ready for you
Lex Fridman (1:49:26.040)
after the podcast is over.
Mark Normand (1:49:28.400)
All right, brother, thanks so much for talking today.
Lex Fridman (1:49:29.800)
Thank you, it was great.
Mark Normand (1:49:31.480)
Comedy.
Lex Fridman (1:49:32.320)
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Mark Norman.
Mark Normand (1:49:36.120)
To support this podcast,
Lex Fridman (1:49:37.280)
please check out our sponsors in the description.
Lex Fridman (1:49:39.720)
And now let me leave you with some words
Lex Fridman (1:49:41.760)
from Mark Norman himself on his Twitter,
Mark Normand (1:49:44.640)
which you should definitely follow because it's hilarious.
Lex Fridman (1:49:47.840)
The worst thing about getting Omicron for Christmas
Mark Normand (1:49:51.360)
is you know it was regifted.
Lex Fridman (1:49:53.360)
Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.
Mark Normand (20:00.340)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's good.
Lex Fridman (20:02.660)
But basically, just the absurdity of it all.
Mark Normand (20:06.260)
Lots of money, lots of weirdos, degenerates,
Lex Fridman (20:10.740)
and dreamers, and the whole mix of it.
Lex Fridman (20:14.160)
Do you think that's an accurate description
Lex Fridman (20:18.020)
of what New York is today?
Mark Normand (20:19.620)
Like, is there still place for the weirdos
Lex Fridman (20:22.220)
and just the interesting artists,
Mark Normand (20:24.940)
the edgy, the comedians, the creators,
Lex Fridman (20:29.760)
the entrepreneurs, as opposed to like Wall Street,
Mark Normand (20:35.180)
as opposed to like rich folk,
Lex Fridman (20:38.500)
and then like hopeless folk?
Mark Normand (20:40.900)
Yeah, I think it's definitely changed a lot.
Lex Fridman (20:42.660)
There's a tiny corner for us weirdo artists.
Mark Normand (20:46.140)
New York used to be where you went to make it
Lex Fridman (20:48.260)
as a painter or whatever, a comedian or a singer.
Lex Fridman (20:51.060)
And there were all these dives and shit boxes
Lex Fridman (20:53.180)
and all these places you could go.
Lex Fridman (20:54.680)
And now it's more Pink Berries
Lex Fridman (20:57.020)
and Subway Sandwiches and Chase Banks.
Lex Fridman (20:59.500)
So it's definitely lost a lot of its creative edge.
Lex Fridman (21:03.900)
It's just money, money keeps coming in.
Lex Fridman (21:05.540)
And now you see all these comedians move to Nashville,
Lex Fridman (21:07.780)
Austin, Denver, whatever.
Lex Fridman (21:09.720)
So it doesn't have the power it used to have
Lex Fridman (21:13.660)
of like, you gotta be here if you wanna make it.
Mark Normand (21:16.000)
That's definitely gone.
Lex Fridman (21:17.940)
So that hurt the city a lot.
Mark Normand (21:20.100)
The city is way more soulless.
Lex Fridman (21:22.900)
When I moved here in 07,
Mark Normand (21:24.620)
I mean, not only did I get mugged three times
Lex Fridman (21:26.180)
in the first year, but it was a hub of like,
Mark Normand (21:31.140)
it felt like things were happening here.
Lex Fridman (21:33.140)
It was an energy, it was electricity.
Lex Fridman (21:34.900)
And we still have the electricity,
Lex Fridman (21:35.940)
but it's also maybe just cause there's Times Square,
Mark Normand (21:38.120)
there's Soho, there's Wall Street.
Lex Fridman (21:41.120)
So we got the staples, but there is a little bit of that.
Mark Normand (21:44.120)
It's almost like a marriage.
Lex Fridman (21:45.300)
Like, yeah, we're in love,
Lex Fridman (21:46.420)
but it's not as passionate as it once was.
Lex Fridman (21:49.500)
That's how I would equate New York.
Lex Fridman (21:51.700)
What gives you hope?
Lex Fridman (21:52.600)
You're pretty hopeful about it though.
Mark Normand (21:54.660)
I'm hopeful just cause I know it's magical
Lex Fridman (21:57.100)
and I think it has to be.
Mark Normand (21:59.500)
I mean, it's the epicenter of America.
Lex Fridman (22:01.060)
Like this is where the immigrants came
Lex Fridman (22:02.980)
and this is where the stock market is
Lex Fridman (22:05.380)
and the entertainment industry, a lot of it is here.
Lex Fridman (22:08.260)
So I think it's gonna happen,
Lex Fridman (22:12.100)
but something like the bottom has to fall out
Lex Fridman (22:14.620)
and then people have to move back here and all that.
Lex Fridman (22:16.640)
So something, the corporations are kind of fucking us.
Mark Normand (22:19.580)
They're just buying everything.
Lex Fridman (22:20.820)
Well, that's true for everything.
Mark Normand (22:22.060)
That's true for everything.
Lex Fridman (22:23.220)
This is true for Austin probably as well.
Mark Normand (22:24.980)
People are just buying out land and all that kind of stuff.
Lex Fridman (22:27.140)
You always hear a Hemingway and Dali
Lex Fridman (22:28.860)
and all these guys went to Paris in the 20s
Lex Fridman (22:32.340)
or whatever that was.
Mark Normand (22:34.020)
I get it now.
Lex Fridman (22:35.100)
I used to be like, why do these guys go to Paris?
Lex Fridman (22:36.780)
Why do these artists?
Lex Fridman (22:38.200)
And now I get it.
Mark Normand (22:39.040)
Cause it's like, it's freer there.
Lex Fridman (22:41.180)
That's why Austin became like that Paris
Mark Normand (22:43.580)
where everybody's like, I gotta get out of LA.
Lex Fridman (22:44.980)
I'm going there.
Lex Fridman (22:46.540)
And maybe, but we came back from that.
Lex Fridman (22:50.620)
70s were wild and 90s were cool.
Lex Fridman (22:53.520)
So maybe it'll come back.
Lex Fridman (22:54.740)
Might just take a decade.
Mark Normand (22:55.860)
Well, there's always, that's how stories are told.
Lex Fridman (22:57.700)
There's always pockets of like Paris within New York.
Mark Normand (23:02.820)
True, true.
Lex Fridman (23:03.840)
There's just an opportunity to let your weird flourish
Mark Normand (23:07.980)
is there in New York, I'm sure.
Lex Fridman (23:09.620)
There, I mean.
Mark Normand (23:12.700)
It's there.
Lex Fridman (23:13.520)
You gotta find it.
Mark Normand (23:14.360)
Before it was front and center.
Lex Fridman (23:16.060)
What's your favorite thing about New York?
Mark Normand (23:18.160)
Like what kind of things just like.
Lex Fridman (23:22.060)
I mean, how long is this pod?
Mark Normand (23:23.220)
I could go on.
Lex Fridman (23:24.040)
It's just, it's too much to put into one hour.
Mark Normand (23:27.460)
We've got other questions, but I love that one neighborhood
Lex Fridman (23:31.300)
is wildly different than the next.
Mark Normand (23:33.220)
I'm in Little Italy and then you take four steps.
Lex Fridman (23:35.400)
Now I'm in Chinatown.
Mark Normand (23:36.500)
I mean, and then the history there and then the stories
Lex Fridman (23:39.560)
and the food and the culture and all that.
Lex Fridman (23:42.420)
And then you go 10 feet over here.
Lex Fridman (23:44.140)
Now you're in Brooklyn.
Lex Fridman (23:45.160)
And this is insane as a whole nother world.
Lex Fridman (23:47.080)
And it's almost like a little America in one,
Mark Normand (23:51.740)
you know, city and it's great.
Lex Fridman (23:54.100)
And just the fact that they pulled it off
Mark Normand (23:56.700)
like Fifth Avenue goes way up.
Lex Fridman (23:59.380)
And you're like, there's a billionaire's house
Mark Normand (24:00.740)
next to a hobo.
Lex Fridman (24:01.780)
And then this is a black guy who's fighting with a Cuban guy
Lex Fridman (24:04.580)
and an Asian guy is trying to get in the middle of them.
Lex Fridman (24:07.340)
And the cabbie's from the Middle East.
Lex Fridman (24:09.380)
And there's so many beautiful women here.
Lex Fridman (24:12.000)
And there's so many brilliant minds here.
Lex Fridman (24:13.620)
And the pace is great.
Lex Fridman (24:15.020)
It keeps people moving.
Mark Normand (24:16.140)
I mean, it just, you can't beat it.
Lex Fridman (24:18.720)
And the city will fuck you in the ass too.
Mark Normand (24:20.580)
Don't get me wrong.
Lex Fridman (24:21.420)
You landed JFK and you're like, oh God, I got mugged.
Mark Normand (24:23.900)
My Uber driver called me a homo.
Lex Fridman (24:27.460)
I stepped in human shit.
Lex Fridman (24:29.380)
Where the fuck am I?
Lex Fridman (24:31.800)
So yeah, it's bad news.
Lex Fridman (24:33.460)
But that bad news, it's almost like the bullying.
Lex Fridman (24:35.900)
It kills you in a weird way, but it makes you stronger.
Lex Fridman (24:38.380)
And you build more layers and layers and layers.
Lex Fridman (24:40.540)
That's why some new guys,
Mark Normand (24:41.740)
some hayseed from Milwaukee shows up.
Lex Fridman (24:44.140)
You've been here 10 years and you go,
Mark Normand (24:46.020)
let me help you out.
Lex Fridman (24:47.420)
Cause you gotta adjust.
Mark Normand (24:50.220)
You're gonna get your ass kicked for like six months.
Lex Fridman (24:52.820)
But I know the ropes a little,
Lex Fridman (24:54.100)
and I think you need a little of that.
Lex Fridman (24:55.940)
If the treadmill's not on, you're not gonna run.
Mark Normand (25:00.020)
New York, the treadmill's on.
Lex Fridman (25:01.320)
So it just makes you run and it makes you better.
Lex Fridman (25:03.980)
And look, it wears on you.
Lex Fridman (25:04.820)
You probably lose 10 years of your life
Mark Normand (25:06.260)
living in New York versus Indianapolis,
Lex Fridman (25:09.740)
but it's a better life.
Lex Fridman (25:12.580)
Have you seen 25th Hour?
Lex Fridman (25:13.980)
Yeah, it's been a while.
Mark Normand (25:15.940)
Spike Lee joint.
Lex Fridman (25:17.460)
Yeah, Spike Lee joint.
Mark Normand (25:18.700)
I mean, at Norton, there's a whole monologue there
Lex Fridman (25:23.340)
about New York.
Mark Normand (25:24.180)
Oh, that's right.
Lex Fridman (25:25.180)
They're talking about just, he has like a mix.
Mark Normand (25:30.100)
There's like melancholy music, I think,
Lex Fridman (25:31.940)
or just a melancholy feel to the whole thing.
Lex Fridman (25:34.100)
But there's an anger and a disgust with the city.
Lex Fridman (25:37.100)
But through the anger and the disgust
Mark Normand (25:38.780)
comes out like a love for the city.
Lex Fridman (25:40.940)
Same with, was Taxi Driver in New York?
Mark Normand (25:43.020)
Oh yeah, it's going crazy.
Lex Fridman (25:45.260)
Yeah, so like that, there's something about, what is that?
Lex Fridman (25:48.620)
What is that grit of the city that like pushes you down?
Lex Fridman (25:56.180)
Well, that's the beauty of this city
Mark Normand (25:57.280)
is it's this tribal human nature,
Lex Fridman (25:59.780)
like the sex shops and fistfights and racism
Lex Fridman (26:04.180)
and all this tension,
Lex Fridman (26:05.500)
but yet it's the epicenter of technology and finance
Lex Fridman (26:08.660)
and sophistication on Fifth Avenue.
Lex Fridman (26:10.540)
So you get that juxtaposition.
Mark Normand (26:13.820)
It's kind of like in Boston.
Lex Fridman (26:14.700)
You go to Boston, they got MIT, they got Harvard,
Mark Normand (26:16.900)
they got all this shit.
Lex Fridman (26:18.300)
And then they got the fishermen, the blue collar douchebags,
Mark Normand (26:21.780)
the Irish guys, the immigrants,
Lex Fridman (26:23.860)
and you get that mix of like insanely smart
Mark Normand (26:26.780)
with wicked pisser and these two worlds.
Lex Fridman (26:30.180)
And that's a good thing.
Mark Normand (26:31.420)
It's like when a black guy fucks an Asian lady,
Lex Fridman (26:33.760)
that's a good looking kid.
Mark Normand (26:35.420)
You get a mix.
Lex Fridman (26:36.860)
We're mixing two totally different things
Mark Normand (26:39.460)
are coming together and it makes it,
Lex Fridman (26:40.780)
it's like peanut butter and chocolate.
Mark Normand (26:43.140)
Peanut butter and chocolate, I've never tried that.
Lex Fridman (26:45.540)
What?
Mark Normand (26:46.380)
Peanut butter, maybe I have.
Lex Fridman (26:47.220)
You're talking about Reese's, man.
Mark Normand (26:48.780)
Like Reese's, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (26:50.740)
Oh, it's the best candy.
Mark Normand (26:52.180)
Yeah, without the fakeness of LA,
Lex Fridman (26:55.660)
without the kind of, with the facade.
Mark Normand (27:00.460)
Yeah, LA's tough.
Lex Fridman (27:03.040)
What's the difference between LA comedy
Lex Fridman (27:05.720)
and New York comedy to you?
Lex Fridman (27:08.260)
I think one place you kind of go to make it
Lex Fridman (27:10.580)
and be discovered and be loved,
Lex Fridman (27:13.460)
and one place you go, you can get all that in New York too,
Lex Fridman (27:16.180)
but I think in New York, it's more of a school,
Lex Fridman (27:19.060)
a bootcamp of comedy.
Mark Normand (27:21.060)
Let's make great comedy.
Lex Fridman (27:22.740)
Let's make original comedy.
Mark Normand (27:23.980)
Let's watch the other guys and gals
Lex Fridman (27:26.260)
who are at the show at the clubs and learn from them
Lex Fridman (27:29.380)
and try to hang out with them and absorb some of them.
Lex Fridman (27:33.200)
And in LA, it's like, when am I on?
Mark Normand (27:36.060)
I'm next, get out of my way.
Lex Fridman (27:38.080)
I'm the star here.
Mark Normand (27:39.900)
I'm a bigger star than you.
Lex Fridman (27:41.320)
Oh, this guy's actually a big star.
Mark Normand (27:42.620)
I got to outwork, you know, it's just a lot of that
Lex Fridman (27:44.680)
instead of like, damn, that was funny.
Mark Normand (27:46.460)
I got to be that funny.
Lex Fridman (27:47.860)
Damn, I wish I had a joke.
Lex Fridman (27:48.980)
And look, I don't want to speak for LA comics
Lex Fridman (27:51.020)
because there's, you know, Bill Burr, Anthony Jeslenek,
Mark Normand (27:54.340)
brilliant LA comic, but they all cut their teeth
Lex Fridman (27:56.840)
in New York, just saying.
Mark Normand (27:58.520)
Then they moved to LA.
Lex Fridman (28:00.220)
That's a good point.
Mark Normand (28:01.060)
You know, Ali Wong, all these people, killer comics,
Lex Fridman (28:03.360)
but New York, started in New York, moved to New York.
Mark Normand (28:07.220)
There is something about comics that stay in New York
Lex Fridman (28:09.300)
for a long time though, like Dave Attell.
Lex Fridman (28:11.060)
Ah, you know about Dave?
Lex Fridman (28:12.580)
Yeah, yeah, he wants to do this podcast.
Lex Fridman (28:14.340)
He does?
Lex Fridman (28:15.180)
Yeah, I'm a huge fan of Dave Attell.
Lex Fridman (28:16.860)
But it's like, he almost like he doesn't want to make it.
Lex Fridman (28:21.100)
I don't know.
Mark Normand (28:21.940)
I mean, you probably know him, but like,
Lex Fridman (28:23.780)
it feels like you just, maybe it's romanticizing it,
Lex Fridman (28:27.900)
but you're like, you almost just love the art of comedy,
Lex Fridman (28:31.180)
like becoming funnier, crafting the jokes,
Mark Normand (28:34.060)
becoming funnier than the other comics,
Lex Fridman (28:35.700)
like competing with each other kind of thing,
Mark Normand (28:37.580)
not over like money or fame or any of that,
Lex Fridman (28:41.180)
just purely the comedy of it.
Mark Normand (28:43.180)
Totally, that's Dave.
Lex Fridman (28:44.260)
That's him in a nutshell.
Mark Normand (28:45.100)
He's like that guy in the movies in the 80s,
Lex Fridman (28:46.780)
action movies, where they're like,
Mark Normand (28:48.100)
they go up to a creek in Montana,
Lex Fridman (28:50.620)
and some guy's living in a cabin,
Lex Fridman (28:51.820)
and he's sharpening a stick, and they go,
Lex Fridman (28:54.320)
the Russians are coming, they're invading.
Mark Normand (28:56.160)
We need you, you're the best commando.
Lex Fridman (28:57.860)
And he's like, I gave that up, man.
Mark Normand (28:59.580)
I'm done with that lifestyle.
Lex Fridman (29:00.820)
They're like, but you're the best, we need you.
Lex Fridman (29:02.620)
And he has to suit up eventually.
Lex Fridman (29:04.620)
You know, he looks at a picture of his dead wife,
Lex Fridman (29:06.180)
and he goes, fuck it, I'm going.
Lex Fridman (29:07.460)
And then they, you know, fight the Ruskies.
Lex Fridman (29:09.420)
But he's that guy.
Lex Fridman (29:11.220)
He just is gifted.
Mark Normand (29:12.740)
He's like got a gift from Allah, and he's the best.
Lex Fridman (29:16.820)
Yeah, a lot of comics give him props.
Mark Normand (29:18.660)
That's always surprising to me.
Lex Fridman (29:20.140)
Because it's surprising to me
Mark Normand (29:21.660)
because he hasn't really made it, like big.
Lex Fridman (29:25.380)
Well, he did.
Mark Normand (29:26.300)
In the 90s, he was huge.
Lex Fridman (29:27.380)
He had his own TV show.
Mark Normand (29:28.580)
Yeah, yeah, that show was awesome.
Lex Fridman (29:30.980)
But I mean, like as big as I think he deserves to be.
Mark Normand (29:34.260)
Well, that's art.
Lex Fridman (29:35.100)
The mainstream shit is always the worst.
Mark Normand (29:37.900)
It's like McDonald's versus some hole in the wall.
Lex Fridman (29:40.500)
I know I'm shitting on McDonald's again, but it's good.
Lex Fridman (29:43.860)
And you know, certain comics we could name are good,
Lex Fridman (29:46.140)
but the delicacy is going to be less talked about
Lex Fridman (29:51.980)
and less household namey than the mainstream hacky shit.
Lex Fridman (29:58.100)
Yeah, it's funny because he hasn't,
Mark Normand (29:59.740)
I think it was on Joe Rogan's show once, maybe.
Lex Fridman (30:04.100)
Yeah, once or twice.
Lex Fridman (30:04.940)
And he was with somebody else.
Lex Fridman (30:07.700)
Jeff Ross?
Mark Normand (30:08.540)
Yeah, he might have known Jeff Ross.
Lex Fridman (30:10.380)
Oh yeah, because they did that like two mics thing,
Mark Normand (30:12.260)
whatever.
Lex Fridman (30:13.100)
Oh, big mics, yeah.
Mark Normand (30:13.920)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (30:15.440)
But he's the quickest guy.
Mark Normand (30:16.700)
There's no one funnier.
Lex Fridman (30:17.820)
Yeah.
Mark Normand (30:18.940)
Yeah, him and you, you're super quick.
Lex Fridman (30:22.300)
Your appearance on, recent appearance on Rogan's hilarious.
Mark Normand (30:24.740)
Oh, thanks.
Lex Fridman (30:25.580)
Just so fast.
Mark Normand (30:27.060)
You're on with Ari and...
Lex Fridman (30:29.560)
Shane Gillis.
Mark Normand (30:30.400)
Shane Gillis.
Lex Fridman (30:31.220)
Yeah, that was fun.
Mark Normand (30:32.060)
We're going back in January.
Lex Fridman (30:33.580)
I don't know when this comes out.
Mark Normand (30:35.620)
This has never come out.
Lex Fridman (30:38.060)
Neither will you.
Mark Normand (30:40.380)
We're having fun.
Lex Fridman (30:41.340)
Yep.
Mark Normand (30:42.180)
All right, so what does it feel like to bomb
Lex Fridman (30:46.320)
in standup comedy, like to fail?
Mark Normand (30:49.140)
Maybe the psychology of it first,
Lex Fridman (30:51.020)
like just take me through it.
Mark Normand (30:53.340)
Cause we're talking about being outnumbered in a fight,
Lex Fridman (30:57.220)
just being beat up.
Mark Normand (30:58.180)
Very similar.
Lex Fridman (31:00.260)
By the way, this is like a no eye contact off.
Mark Normand (31:02.740)
Yeah, we're both uncomfortable with it.
Lex Fridman (31:05.540)
Yeah, it's great.
Mark Normand (31:06.740)
It's kind of nice to be with my people, but yeah.
Lex Fridman (31:10.180)
Do you need a sheet of paper to look at it?
Mark Normand (31:12.420)
I'm going, I got a good sweet spot right there.
Lex Fridman (31:15.980)
Yeah, it's a nightmare, but it's part of it.
Mark Normand (31:21.740)
It's the validation too is the worst part.
Lex Fridman (31:24.280)
Cause you know, whenever you do comedy and kill,
Mark Normand (31:27.200)
you can be a great comic,
Lex Fridman (31:28.200)
but even David Tell, these brilliant guys,
Mark Normand (31:29.940)
they feel like they're getting,
Lex Fridman (31:30.780)
you feel like you're getting away with something.
Mark Normand (31:32.180)
I don't have a day job.
Lex Fridman (31:33.140)
I'm telling jokes for a living.
Mark Normand (31:34.300)
I'm talking about my dick up here
Lex Fridman (31:35.540)
and they're fucking loving me.
Lex Fridman (31:36.580)
And they call me a genius and all this.
Lex Fridman (31:38.460)
I'm talking about my sack, you know?
Lex Fridman (31:40.640)
And it's great.
Lex Fridman (31:42.020)
It makes people happy and it's funny,
Lex Fridman (31:43.340)
but that bombing, when you bomb,
Lex Fridman (31:46.780)
your first thought is like, yeah, you're right.
Mark Normand (31:48.820)
At first you're like, fuck you guys.
Lex Fridman (31:50.820)
What, you don't like this shit?
Lex Fridman (31:51.780)
And then you just start going in.
Lex Fridman (31:53.020)
You're like, man, maybe it isn't that good.
Mark Normand (31:54.940)
Maybe they're right.
Lex Fridman (31:55.780)
I do suck.
Mark Normand (31:56.700)
I knew I sucked.
Lex Fridman (31:57.860)
I should become a mailman, you know?
Lex Fridman (32:00.100)
And it stinks and you feel alone.
Lex Fridman (32:03.580)
And you feel like you wasted their time.
Lex Fridman (32:06.180)
And then you're like, what was I thinking?
Lex Fridman (32:07.460)
I could be a comedian.
Lex Fridman (32:08.380)
What the fuck, who am I?
Lex Fridman (32:09.460)
You know, Eddie Murphy, what am I doing here?
Lex Fridman (32:11.740)
So it's a lot of just spiraling out of horrible thoughts.
Lex Fridman (32:16.340)
But I also love that it hurts so bad.
Mark Normand (32:18.580)
Bombing fucking hurts because now everybody doesn't do it.
Lex Fridman (32:23.260)
I think a lot more people could do comedy probably
Lex Fridman (32:25.220)
and figure it out.
Lex Fridman (32:26.460)
But the bombing is so brutal
Mark Normand (32:28.600)
that it keeps, one time I went to Minneapolis.
Lex Fridman (32:31.460)
I was like, this is a great city.
Mark Normand (32:32.580)
I mean, it's a sun is shining.
Lex Fridman (32:33.820)
Why isn't this city like packed?
Lex Fridman (32:35.460)
And they're like, cause the winters are so bad
Lex Fridman (32:36.920)
and we love it because it keeps everybody out.
Lex Fridman (32:38.680)
And I feel like the same about comedy.
Lex Fridman (32:39.820)
The bombs are so brutal.
Mark Normand (32:41.820)
I've had bombs where I'm in bed.
Lex Fridman (32:43.320)
I'm just staring at the ceiling like, what the fuck was that?
Mark Normand (32:45.760)
Like you have PTSD.
Lex Fridman (32:47.400)
I bombed at an arena once, 20,000 people.
Mark Normand (32:49.960)
I did 30 minutes to silence.
Lex Fridman (32:52.460)
I guess.
Lex Fridman (32:53.300)
So it's not just like one joke fails.
Lex Fridman (32:54.780)
It's like they start piling on like it's irrecoverable.
Mark Normand (32:58.580)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (32:59.420)
And one joke failing is very common.
Mark Normand (33:00.980)
Like a lot of audience don't even notice like that bomb.
Lex Fridman (33:03.860)
Cause you get, you know, you've got so many jokes in a row.
Mark Normand (33:05.540)
You can sandwich a good one, then a bad one,
Lex Fridman (33:07.140)
then a good one.
Lex Fridman (33:08.140)
But when you bomb, it's almost like they chose,
Lex Fridman (33:10.460)
we don't like you.
Mark Normand (33:12.160)
Nothing you say will redeem yourself.
Lex Fridman (33:14.500)
And it's hard to get out of.
Mark Normand (33:16.780)
It's like being pulled down by your hair.
Lex Fridman (33:18.300)
You can't get back.
Mark Normand (33:19.420)
I can't win this fight no matter what.
Lex Fridman (33:21.940)
Can you like get them back by acknowledging
Mark Normand (33:24.620)
like the elephant in the room that like.
Lex Fridman (33:27.060)
That helps, but they're still gonna go,
Mark Normand (33:28.540)
that was funny when he made fun of it, but he sucks.
Lex Fridman (33:31.380)
He still sucks.
Mark Normand (33:32.220)
He still sucks.
Lex Fridman (33:33.420)
That's the worst part.
Mark Normand (33:34.360)
You're going, no, this is good.
Lex Fridman (33:36.140)
You guys just don't like me.
Mark Normand (33:37.220)
Just cause you don't like me doesn't mean I'm bad.
Lex Fridman (33:39.540)
Yeah, I like going to open mics a lot.
Mark Normand (33:41.740)
Just listening because first of all,
Lex Fridman (33:45.540)
I think the audience in open mic,
Mark Normand (33:47.180)
at least the ones I've been to,
Lex Fridman (33:49.460)
is mostly I guess other comedians
Mark Normand (33:51.900)
or like at least people who don't seem
Lex Fridman (33:53.540)
to want to laugh at anything.
Lex Fridman (33:55.300)
And so I just love it because it's human nature
Lex Fridman (33:58.700)
and perseverance that is best.
Mark Normand (34:00.540)
That here's comedians, like clearly,
Lex Fridman (34:03.660)
this is mostly in Austin.
Mark Normand (34:04.860)
They have a dream.
Lex Fridman (34:06.140)
Like why would you get up there?
Mark Normand (34:07.820)
Right, maybe some weird, you know,
Lex Fridman (34:12.020)
New Year's resolution bullshit,
Lex Fridman (34:13.900)
but for the most part, it's people who want to be comedians.
Lex Fridman (34:16.300)
Like a lot of the open micers are people
Mark Normand (34:18.580)
who clearly have done this for quite a long time already.
Lex Fridman (34:21.180)
Like at least a year or two, maybe five years.
Lex Fridman (34:24.500)
And they're often not very funny.
Lex Fridman (34:29.160)
And just bombing in front of an audience of like 20
Mark Normand (34:36.700)
where they're just sitting there,
Lex Fridman (34:39.120)
like almost like mocking them with their eyes
Mark Normand (34:42.460)
or maybe, and I don't know, and they still push through.
Lex Fridman (34:45.960)
They still like, as if they're doing an arena
Lex Fridman (34:49.380)
and everybody's laughing.
Lex Fridman (34:52.020)
They still got that energy trying.
Mark Normand (34:54.260)
Almost like to an audience that doesn't exist.
Lex Fridman (34:58.160)
Like an audience of their dreams.
Mark Normand (35:00.000)
Cause I guess that you have to do that
Lex Fridman (35:01.900)
to keep the energy of the act going.
Lex Fridman (35:03.740)
And it's just so beautiful to watch them try it.
Lex Fridman (35:08.300)
And also what happens, open mic,
Mark Normand (35:11.380)
I don't know, five minutes, whatever they do,
Lex Fridman (35:13.840)
they walk off and then walk back off stage.
Lex Fridman (35:19.180)
And like, you can't, who do they look at?
Lex Fridman (35:21.860)
Like what do you look at, do you make eye contact
Lex Fridman (35:24.380)
with people, do you?
Lex Fridman (35:25.700)
You look at your phone, you look at your feet,
Mark Normand (35:27.340)
you just zone out.
Lex Fridman (35:28.660)
You kind of kind of go white, you know,
Mark Normand (35:32.380)
you just hear white noise and go out.
Lex Fridman (35:34.440)
It's tough, but you got it.
Mark Normand (35:37.260)
You need a little delusion to be a comedian.
Lex Fridman (35:40.400)
To get into it, it takes a little bit of delusion.
Mark Normand (35:42.340)
Like you think you can do this, you know,
Lex Fridman (35:44.560)
you got 10 years ahead of you of hell
Lex Fridman (35:46.980)
and you're up for this.
Lex Fridman (35:48.660)
And you know, most comics, we see a horrible crowd
Lex Fridman (35:50.980)
and we see our friend bomb and we go,
Lex Fridman (35:53.280)
yeah, he's bombing, but I'll get him.
Mark Normand (35:55.040)
I'll get him.
Lex Fridman (35:56.460)
And then you don't get him, but that's human nature too.
Mark Normand (36:02.100)
It's like, they don't like him, but they'll like me.
Lex Fridman (36:04.420)
And you need a little of that to keep going as a comedian.
Lex Fridman (36:07.180)
But you don't want too much delusion
Lex Fridman (36:08.340)
because then you're a psycho, but you need a little.
Mark Normand (36:11.980)
Well, the psycho could be good for a comedy.
Lex Fridman (36:13.980)
That's true too, love psychos.
Mark Normand (36:15.740)
I mentioned to you offline that I talked to Elon
Lex Fridman (36:18.740)
and we talked about doing standup,
Lex Fridman (36:20.380)
but he's thinking maybe do a few minutes of standup.
Lex Fridman (36:22.940)
I was gonna say, if you need a coach, Elon, I gotcha.
Mark Normand (36:27.300)
Well, maybe you should move to Austin
Lex Fridman (36:28.660)
to coach him full time.
Mark Normand (36:30.140)
Ah, hopefully he can fly me in.
Lex Fridman (36:32.140)
So what advice would you give to somebody
Mark Normand (36:36.220)
who wants to try to do five minutes,
Lex Fridman (36:39.200)
like the early steps of trying to go to an open mic
Lex Fridman (36:44.980)
and say something funny?
Lex Fridman (36:46.500)
Well, that's the irony of comedy is,
Mark Normand (36:48.480)
I don't know if it's irony,
Lex Fridman (36:49.320)
but it's like the beginning is the hardest part.
Mark Normand (36:51.740)
Usually the beginning is easy part.
Lex Fridman (36:53.380)
Hey, I'm playing this level of Mario.
Mark Normand (36:55.300)
I start, I jump over one Koopa Troopa, whatever.
Lex Fridman (36:57.820)
And then the end is like, Jesus Christ,
Mark Normand (36:59.620)
I got 30 guys coming at me.
Lex Fridman (37:01.180)
Comedy is the opposite.
Mark Normand (37:02.140)
The beginning is like, it's a gauntlet.
Lex Fridman (37:04.980)
It's just obstacles.
Lex Fridman (37:06.220)
And it's like you said, open mics.
Lex Fridman (37:07.940)
I watched these famous comedians on Netflix and you go,
Mark Normand (37:10.740)
this would all bomb at an open mic.
Lex Fridman (37:12.100)
They're killing in Radio City.
Mark Normand (37:14.220)
This would bomb at an open mic.
Lex Fridman (37:15.340)
That's the weird part.
Lex Fridman (37:16.300)
So it's almost like you have to go through hell
Lex Fridman (37:18.020)
just to get to the promised land.
Lex Fridman (37:21.340)
And I would say, rehearse the shit out of it
Lex Fridman (37:25.260)
because you're gonna get frazzled up there.
Mark Normand (37:26.820)
Everybody thinks, oh, this is good material.
Lex Fridman (37:28.540)
But you also forget about the other part of delivering it,
Mark Normand (37:31.260)
having confidence, being likable,
Lex Fridman (37:33.900)
having timing, having a cadence,
Mark Normand (37:35.980)
figuring out who you are,
Lex Fridman (37:37.100)
figuring out what the audience thinks you are
Mark Normand (37:39.300)
or how they perceive you.
Lex Fridman (37:40.820)
Cause you can go up there and say all this,
Lex Fridman (37:42.160)
but they go, why is the guy, he's clearly gay.
Lex Fridman (37:44.380)
Why is he acting like he's not gay?
Mark Normand (37:46.100)
That's all, now they're not listening to the joke.
Lex Fridman (37:47.820)
So like, you gotta know how you look.
Lex Fridman (37:50.380)
And it's just repetition, repetition.
Lex Fridman (37:53.200)
And bombing is not failure.
Mark Normand (37:54.980)
That's what you gotta remember.
Lex Fridman (37:56.140)
I mean, look, if you do a killer hour
Lex Fridman (37:58.620)
and then you take it to Netflix and bomb, you fucked up.
Lex Fridman (38:01.180)
But bombing is not failure.
Mark Normand (38:03.080)
It's just data.
Lex Fridman (38:04.840)
It's going, oh, okay, I gotta retool that.
Mark Normand (38:07.700)
That didn't work.
Lex Fridman (38:08.540)
Something's wrong there.
Mark Normand (38:09.820)
I missed a word there.
Lex Fridman (38:11.180)
So you gotta treat the act
Mark Normand (38:13.180)
almost like ingredients in a cooking, in a dish.
Lex Fridman (38:20.100)
You know, like, oh, I put too many eggs in.
Mark Normand (38:22.100)
Take an egg out.
Lex Fridman (38:22.940)
You gotta treat it like that.
Lex Fridman (38:24.360)
And look, when you pull a bad cake out of an oven,
Lex Fridman (38:26.540)
you go, I fucked up.
Lex Fridman (38:27.860)
But it doesn't hurt your feelings.
Lex Fridman (38:29.540)
But when you bomb and fuck up, it hurts your feelings.
Lex Fridman (38:32.420)
So you gotta factor that in too.
Lex Fridman (38:33.620)
Your feelings gonna be hurt
Lex Fridman (38:35.060)
and just almost be a robot
Lex Fridman (38:36.880)
and just keep going towards that open mic.
Lex Fridman (38:39.260)
You know how scary an open mic is?
Lex Fridman (38:40.860)
Bombing sucks, but bombing in front of other comedians
Mark Normand (38:43.500)
is way worse.
Lex Fridman (38:44.660)
Cause they know what just happened
Lex Fridman (38:47.100)
and they could have saved you and they didn't.
Lex Fridman (38:49.460)
So it's way worse.
Lex Fridman (38:51.180)
And they're gonna be your quote unquote friends
Lex Fridman (38:55.260)
for this journey.
Mark Normand (38:56.140)
Yeah, no, these are evil people.
Lex Fridman (38:59.020)
Twisted, fucked up, hurt people.
Lex Fridman (39:02.820)
Can you tell, like in those early days,
Lex Fridman (39:05.260)
let's just talk about that,
Mark Normand (39:06.420)
like at the open mic level
Lex Fridman (39:08.060)
that a joke is gonna be good on paper.
Mark Normand (39:11.180)
Like I'll give you my experience
Lex Fridman (39:12.660)
cause maybe you could be my coach
Mark Normand (39:16.560)
in this particular moment.
Lex Fridman (39:18.140)
So.
Mark Normand (39:18.980)
Like Larry Nassar.
Lex Fridman (39:22.980)
That's fun, huh?
Mark Normand (39:24.380)
Joking, everybody.
Lex Fridman (39:25.220)
I hope nobody takes it seriously.
Mark Normand (39:28.180)
I now have an amazing team of folks
Lex Fridman (39:30.940)
who help me with editing
Lex Fridman (39:31.940)
and they're now currently sweating.
Lex Fridman (39:33.700)
Watch this.
Mark Normand (39:34.540)
We gotta leave that one in.
Lex Fridman (39:35.360)
That was quick.
Mark Normand (39:36.200)
Yeah, that was pretty good.
Lex Fridman (39:37.020)
I'll leave that one.
Mark Normand (39:37.860)
That was good.
Lex Fridman (39:38.700)
All right.
Lex Fridman (39:40.860)
So going in front of an audience,
Lex Fridman (39:45.100)
just even to give a lecture terrifies me,
Mark Normand (39:48.180)
which I've done.
Lex Fridman (39:49.940)
But open mic, I mean, that to me,
Mark Normand (39:53.260)
perhaps that's why I like going to open mics and listening
Lex Fridman (39:55.600)
is cause I just, it terrifies me so much,
Mark Normand (39:58.940)
that idea of going up there and bombing.
Lex Fridman (40:02.620)
I mean, it's scary.
Lex Fridman (40:03.720)
And to do even like one minute, to be honest, is scary.
Lex Fridman (40:07.220)
And five minutes, I'm also watched enough open mics
Mark Normand (40:11.180)
to realize that five minutes is a long time.
Lex Fridman (40:13.060)
I mean, it depends on your comedy,
Lex Fridman (40:15.300)
but if you're doing fast stuff,
Lex Fridman (40:18.800)
five minutes is a really long time.
Mark Normand (40:20.500)
Oh, it's eternity.
Lex Fridman (40:22.420)
I guess with a long story, too, is a long time
Mark Normand (40:26.300)
because if the story's not working,
Lex Fridman (40:27.840)
you're building up to something.
Mark Normand (40:29.020)
If the story's gonna fail,
Lex Fridman (40:30.980)
you just spent all that time telling the story
Mark Normand (40:33.420)
that completely went flat.
Lex Fridman (40:35.500)
Completely. Got nothing.
Mark Normand (40:36.560)
I guess if you have a series of jokes,
Lex Fridman (40:38.160)
you can at least try to recover
Lex Fridman (40:39.700)
and like do the Mitch Hedberg thing
Lex Fridman (40:41.340)
where like, all right, I'll cross that off.
Mark Normand (40:43.020)
Yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (40:45.260)
Well, I'm able to, like I've tried to write a few things
Lex Fridman (40:48.780)
and I'm able to tell that it's really bad.
Lex Fridman (40:51.700)
Ah, ha, ha, ha, ha, well, that's better than most.
Mark Normand (40:54.380)
Most people's egos kick in, they go, no, this is good.
Lex Fridman (40:56.860)
No, see, I'm able to introspect that.
Mark Normand (40:59.180)
Like it seems funny.
Lex Fridman (41:00.620)
I mean, I guess the thing I'm looking for is original.
Mark Normand (41:03.460)
Like there's easy stuff that you think is funny,
Lex Fridman (41:08.340)
but to me, originality is the thing
Mark Normand (41:10.860)
you should be looking for because then,
Lex Fridman (41:12.860)
because then that's what's actually becomes funny.
Mark Normand (41:17.180)
Like, or rather, if it's original,
Lex Fridman (41:21.740)
even if it bombs, that feels like more
Mark Normand (41:25.320)
a beautiful art creation that you did.
Lex Fridman (41:27.820)
Like at least you swung for it.
Mark Normand (41:29.720)
Like you did something unique.
Lex Fridman (41:30.980)
Cause like even with open mic, your first five minutes,
Mark Normand (41:33.860)
there's so many, just go to enough open mics,
Lex Fridman (41:36.380)
you'll hear like all the, there's like a list of jokes
Mark Normand (41:39.420)
that you can just go to.
Lex Fridman (41:40.580)
First of all, you can make fun of the fact
Mark Normand (41:42.240)
that you're at open mic, that you're like doing this
Lex Fridman (41:45.140)
for the first time and so on.
Mark Normand (41:46.840)
You could do a lot of stuff where you make fun
Lex Fridman (41:49.100)
of your appearance in some way and so on.
Lex Fridman (41:51.580)
But like, yeah, you could do that.
Lex Fridman (41:53.520)
You know, that takes actually, that's way harder
Mark Normand (41:56.620)
than people realize to do it in an original way.
Lex Fridman (41:59.420)
Yes.
Mark Normand (42:00.260)
You have to present who you are as a person very quickly,
Lex Fridman (42:05.180)
enough to then put that person down
Mark Normand (42:07.900)
in front of everybody else.
Lex Fridman (42:09.620)
So you have to reveal the.
Mark Normand (42:11.540)
The audience is like that,
Lex Fridman (42:12.380)
cause they go, he knows what we're thinking.
Mark Normand (42:13.840)
Yeah, exactly.
Lex Fridman (42:15.660)
But do it again in an original way.
Lex Fridman (42:17.340)
And so like when I'm trying to write stuff,
Lex Fridman (42:19.940)
when I, not that I've tried long, it's like 30 minutes,
Lex Fridman (42:23.820)
but as enough to see like, oh shit,
Lex Fridman (42:27.460)
to write something original is really difficult.
Lex Fridman (42:29.980)
It is, but do you got a bit, anything?
Lex Fridman (42:32.300)
No.
Lex Fridman (42:33.140)
You didn't write any one line or anything?
Lex Fridman (42:34.580)
For this?
Mark Normand (42:35.400)
No.
Lex Fridman (42:36.240)
Well, just in general, ever in your life,
Lex Fridman (42:37.360)
ever written a joke?
Lex Fridman (42:38.200)
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mark Normand (42:39.300)
Oh, okay.
Lex Fridman (42:40.140)
No, but I don't have anything in my mind popped up.
Lex Fridman (42:42.300)
So the jokes that I've written have more,
Lex Fridman (42:47.460)
like for some reason my mind goes to like dark places.
Mark Normand (42:50.860)
So, you know, like, and not actually dark
Lex Fridman (42:55.600)
in the Mark Norman dark, because you go really dark
Mark Normand (42:59.980)
to where it's like almost absurd.
Lex Fridman (43:01.740)
Yes.
Mark Normand (43:02.580)
My natural inclination is to go to like
Lex Fridman (43:05.900)
a dark historical like place, like Hitler and Stalin.
Mark Normand (43:11.020)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (43:12.300)
And almost, so go to that place
Lex Fridman (43:15.840)
and then talk about something absurd there.
Lex Fridman (43:20.840)
So like, don't go like all the way, I don't know.
Mark Normand (43:27.100)
I don't want to give examples because it'd be clipped,
Lex Fridman (43:29.860)
but the Mark Norman style, look it up.
Mark Normand (43:33.300)
He has a special on his YouTube, that kind.
Lex Fridman (43:37.020)
I want to almost explore the dark aspects
Mark Normand (43:39.340)
of human nature more kind of connected
Lex Fridman (43:42.700)
to actual historical figures.
Mark Normand (43:44.220)
That's the inclination.
Lex Fridman (43:47.180)
Like, I don't know, Nature's Metal,
Mark Normand (43:48.900)
the Instagram channel that explores
Lex Fridman (43:51.500)
like the darkness of nature, like something there.
Mark Normand (43:55.420)
See, that's good that you already know
Lex Fridman (43:57.140)
that you've kind of gotten to the core
Mark Normand (43:59.180)
of your comedy already.
Lex Fridman (44:00.420)
And that's interesting, that's a step ahead.
Mark Normand (44:03.480)
Yeah, I can hear, with most things that I do in life,
Lex Fridman (44:05.860)
I can like hear the music from a distance,
Mark Normand (44:08.160)
like in myself, like, okay, if you have anything,
Lex Fridman (44:12.060)
this is the direction it'll be
Mark Normand (44:13.900)
without actually knowing exactly all the steps.
Lex Fridman (44:16.220)
And that's a nice motivation to be like, all right,
Mark Normand (44:18.140)
well, if you do this for a long time,
Lex Fridman (44:19.860)
maybe you'll have a chance to get there.
Mark Normand (44:21.660)
Right.
Lex Fridman (44:22.500)
But you have to, that's where it's a feature
Mark Normand (44:25.220)
to be super self critical, I think.
Lex Fridman (44:27.180)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (44:28.020)
But then that's why it's fucking terrifying
Lex Fridman (44:30.220)
to walk up to a stage, stand there,
Lex Fridman (44:33.180)
and probably forget everything.
Lex Fridman (44:34.700)
Yeah, that's the other part nobody thinks about.
Mark Normand (44:36.480)
Just goes right out of your head.
Lex Fridman (44:37.900)
You go fight or flight, it's ugly.
Mark Normand (44:39.820)
My first years were horrific bombing, horrific stammering,
Lex Fridman (44:43.740)
horrific not remembering the punchline.
Mark Normand (44:45.500)
Like, you got to, maybe you got a set up going
Lex Fridman (44:48.040)
and they're kind of on board and you're like,
Mark Normand (44:49.260)
ah, how's that, ah, camera, camera out it goes.
Lex Fridman (44:51.980)
And you just hate yourself, it's a nightmare.
Lex Fridman (44:55.500)
But you've already kind of,
Lex Fridman (44:57.020)
maybe if you haven't done standup or whatever,
Lex Fridman (44:58.620)
but you kind of know your voice and that's pretty advanced.
Lex Fridman (45:02.780)
So you're not trying to be somebody else, I guess.
Mark Normand (45:05.020)
Yeah, just for having done like podcasts
Lex Fridman (45:07.600)
and lecture and so on.
Mark Normand (45:09.140)
That helps.
Lex Fridman (45:09.980)
I've embarrassed, I've already done some of the work
Mark Normand (45:12.700)
of the standups do, which is embarrass yourself
Lex Fridman (45:15.140)
in front of others for prolonged periods of time.
Mark Normand (45:17.420)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (45:18.260)
Yeah, so I've done that without actually developing
Mark Normand (45:21.660)
the funny.
Lex Fridman (45:22.500)
Right, right, right.
Lex Fridman (45:23.580)
But maybe the funny just is not that difficult to develop.
Lex Fridman (45:28.820)
No, it's super difficult, of course,
Lex Fridman (45:30.180)
but I mean, maybe the essential work
Lex Fridman (45:32.060)
of a standup comedian is just the embarrassment
Mark Normand (45:34.420)
of like finding who you are.
Lex Fridman (45:36.120)
Yeah, that's a part of it for sure.
Mark Normand (45:37.780)
You know, in the beginning you're like,
Lex Fridman (45:39.220)
water bottle, what's funny about water bottle?
Mark Normand (45:41.140)
Hmm, I'm a funny guy, I can make this funny,
Lex Fridman (45:42.580)
but that ain't, that's not it, you know?
Mark Normand (45:44.380)
It's your shit, your shit, like your dark stuff.
Lex Fridman (45:47.100)
For me, I tend to gravitate towards dark,
Lex Fridman (45:50.180)
but in a weird way where, you know,
Lex Fridman (45:52.300)
people will say like, hey, don't objectify women.
Lex Fridman (45:54.660)
But then they go, Caitlyn Jenner's beautiful.
Lex Fridman (45:57.540)
And you're like, well, wait, I know something's off here.
Lex Fridman (46:00.900)
Why can you objectify her, but not the supermodel?
Lex Fridman (46:05.560)
So what's going on there?
Lex Fridman (46:06.760)
And I like to play with that.
Lex Fridman (46:08.540)
So I have this joke where I say, Caitlyn Jenner,
Mark Normand (46:12.660)
oh, women go, Caitlyn Jenner's beautiful, beautiful woman.
Lex Fridman (46:15.220)
I go, well, you look like her, and they go, fuck you.
Lex Fridman (46:17.900)
And you're like, there's a lot of truth there.
Lex Fridman (46:20.200)
But I like exploring that kind of,
Mark Normand (46:23.060)
oh, you're trying to get one over on me,
Lex Fridman (46:24.620)
or you're lying to yourself, or what are we doing here?
Lex Fridman (46:27.180)
And I like that kind of comedy.
Lex Fridman (46:30.260)
I don't see color, well, I'm black.
Mark Normand (46:31.660)
No, you're not.
Lex Fridman (46:32.500)
Ah, you know, that's fun, because you're lying.
Mark Normand (46:37.820)
Yeah, okay, so like big time comedians such as yourself
Lex Fridman (46:42.320)
don't like to think of yourself in this way, but.
Mark Normand (46:45.100)
There we go.
Lex Fridman (46:45.940)
Yeah, this is like where you over philosophize comedy, but.
Mark Normand (46:50.700)
Yeah, definitely.
Lex Fridman (46:51.700)
It seems like comedians.
Mark Normand (46:55.300)
Don't say important.
Lex Fridman (46:56.140)
Nothing worse than a comedian who thinks they're important.
Mark Normand (46:58.060)
Yeah, so I was going, I was trying to find,
Lex Fridman (47:00.220)
as I was trying to say these words,
Mark Normand (47:01.980)
I realized how cliche it is and how uninteresting it is.
Lex Fridman (47:06.420)
So I'm going to just, but there is something.
Mark Normand (47:09.620)
I'm worried this whole thing is uninteresting.
Lex Fridman (47:10.940)
I'm like, who cares about comedy?
Mark Normand (47:12.260)
There's like six comics on the planet.
Lex Fridman (47:13.900)
That nobody cares.
Mark Normand (47:15.020)
Okay, I trust you in the pilot seat.
Lex Fridman (47:17.900)
You know what you're doing.
Mark Normand (47:18.740)
You got listeners.
Lex Fridman (47:20.820)
They've tuned out long ago.
Lex Fridman (47:22.300)
Oh, you got Dan Carlin on here, huh?
Lex Fridman (47:24.660)
Is he around?
Mark Normand (47:25.620)
Yeah, we're just going back and forth on Twitter just now.
Lex Fridman (47:28.500)
He's a huge fan.
Mark Normand (47:29.500)
He was on here before.
Lex Fridman (47:30.540)
He'll be back.
Mark Normand (47:31.740)
I've been actually really trying to volunteer myself
Lex Fridman (47:35.860)
aggressively with Dan Carlin for like a Russian episode
Mark Normand (47:40.340)
where I can speak Russian.
Lex Fridman (47:42.060)
There's certain documents.
Mark Normand (47:44.140)
I talked with Jaco about this too.
Lex Fridman (47:46.020)
Certain things, I mean, I just love the challenge
Mark Normand (47:49.820)
of bringing Russian documents that I can read in Russian
Lex Fridman (47:52.780)
and then can translate and can try to capture
Mark Normand (47:55.740)
the depth of the writing in the Russian language
Lex Fridman (48:01.820)
and communicate to the American audience.
Lex Fridman (48:03.620)
So much is lost in translation.
Lex Fridman (48:05.020)
Like there's so much pain and poetry in the Russian language.
Mark Normand (48:09.260)
It's just connected to the culture.
Lex Fridman (48:10.860)
Every language, not every language,
Lex Fridman (48:13.020)
but many languages are uniquely able to capture
Lex Fridman (48:18.260)
the culture of the people.
Mark Normand (48:19.580)
I mean, in some way they're the representation
Lex Fridman (48:21.460)
of the culture of the people.
Lex Fridman (48:23.140)
And so Russian is definitely that,
Lex Fridman (48:24.780)
like represents the full history and culture
Mark Normand (48:26.940)
of the 20th century with all the atrocities,
Lex Fridman (48:28.860)
all the broken promises, all those kinds of things.
Mark Normand (48:32.140)
Norm says Russian literature is,
Lex Fridman (48:35.300)
it's the most tapped into human existence than anything else.
Mark Normand (48:39.420)
Norm.
Lex Fridman (48:40.260)
McDonald.
Mark Normand (48:41.100)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (48:41.940)
The Russian literature guy.
Mark Normand (48:43.100)
Dostoevsky, all that shit.
Lex Fridman (48:46.140)
It's funny that there is a gap with comedians too.
Mark Normand (48:48.220)
There's a culture of Russian comedy,
Lex Fridman (48:50.260)
like standup comedians that are totally.
Lex Fridman (48:52.180)
Is that right?
Lex Fridman (48:53.180)
Yeah, yeah.
Mark Normand (48:54.020)
I don't know these Russians.
Lex Fridman (48:55.540)
I mean, I don't know today.
Mark Normand (48:57.260)
I mean, more from the 80s and 90s and there's a.
Lex Fridman (49:00.940)
Yakov.
Mark Normand (49:02.700)
That's all I know.
Lex Fridman (49:03.940)
That's not, so there's like a force, that's.
Mark Normand (49:06.980)
I've never seen you that offended.
Lex Fridman (49:08.620)
No, no, no, it's not offended.
Mark Normand (49:09.940)
There's a different, there's like the kinesins
Lex Fridman (49:16.020)
and there's the edgy.
Lex Fridman (49:18.460)
Is that Russian?
Lex Fridman (49:20.400)
What do you mean?
Mark Normand (49:21.240)
Wait, I thought you said there was Russian comics.
Lex Fridman (49:23.100)
Yeah, Russian, I mean, I'm comparing them.
Mark Normand (49:25.260)
I'm giving you like a style of darkness,
Lex Fridman (49:29.020)
like that's the kind of people that kind of challenge.
Mark Normand (49:33.860)
They give, again, this is to how important comedians are,
Lex Fridman (49:37.820)
is they give a voice to people where in the Soviet Union,
Mark Normand (49:42.220)
you really can't like express your opposition
Lex Fridman (49:46.440)
to the government.
Lex Fridman (49:47.540)
And so comedians are exceptionally important there
Lex Fridman (49:52.100)
for just, I don't know, channeling the anger,
Mark Normand (49:55.180)
even when sometimes it's not the actual opposition
Lex Fridman (49:57.260)
to the government, they're just channeling the anger,
Mark Normand (50:00.780)
the frustration with the absurdity of life.
Lex Fridman (50:02.940)
Like, you know, when there's a shortage of food,
Mark Normand (50:05.800)
shortage of jobs, the absurdity of the bureaucracy,
Lex Fridman (50:10.460)
like the top heavy government,
Mark Normand (50:13.560)
just all of that can only sometimes be expressed
Lex Fridman (50:17.860)
with like dark, absurd humor.
Lex Fridman (50:20.580)
And that actually, why there's a culture
Lex Fridman (50:22.900)
of that kind of humor, you know,
Mark Normand (50:24.780)
you gather around the table with vodka
Lex Fridman (50:27.580)
and all you can do is just talk shit and just.
Mark Normand (50:31.940)
Be offensive, say horrible shit, ball bust.
Lex Fridman (50:35.100)
I mean, I make school shooting jokes
Lex Fridman (50:36.900)
and people go, how do you do that?
Lex Fridman (50:37.900)
I'm like, well, maybe that's how I deal with it.
Mark Normand (50:39.880)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (50:40.720)
You know, like how come I gotta empathize the way you do?
Mark Normand (50:45.580)
Maybe we're different.
Lex Fridman (50:47.860)
All right, so now let's skip the whole open mic thing
Lex Fridman (50:50.860)
and crafting jokes.
Lex Fridman (50:53.780)
Oh yeah, that's tough.
Mark Normand (50:55.420)
Kerouac said, one day I will find the right words
Lex Fridman (50:59.440)
and they will be simple.
Mark Normand (51:02.140)
When do you know the joke is done, it's perfect.
Lex Fridman (51:05.020)
You're somebody that does like really sharp,
Mark Normand (51:08.580)
like fast jokes.
Lex Fridman (51:11.820)
Wow. Oh, thanks.
Lex Fridman (51:13.300)
So like there's somebody, I don't know,
Lex Fridman (51:15.780)
I don't know who you see yourself in the same school as,
Mark Normand (51:18.660)
like you're darker and faster than Hedberg, I think,
Lex Fridman (51:24.020)
in terms of like, just, I don't know,
Mark Normand (51:26.820)
the turns you take are very fast.
Lex Fridman (51:29.220)
Thanks, I appreciate it.
Mark Normand (51:30.460)
I think I got some Norm Macdonald and maybe.
Lex Fridman (51:32.300)
Oh, Norm, that's right.
Mark Normand (51:33.140)
You know, obviously Norm,
Lex Fridman (51:34.940)
but Chris Rock was huge for me.
Mark Normand (51:36.980)
Chris Rock, old like 90s Chris Rock was like,
Lex Fridman (51:40.420)
I didn't know you could do jokes like that.
Mark Normand (51:41.860)
I always loved George Carlin and Groucho Marx
Lex Fridman (51:44.040)
and Bill Murray, there's so many different types of comedy.
Lex Fridman (51:47.260)
But when I saw the bigger and blacker bring the pain,
Lex Fridman (51:50.440)
I was like, oh my God, this is like, it hit me.
Lex Fridman (51:54.020)
So that was big.
Lex Fridman (51:54.860)
And then Norm's just like the funniest guy on the planet.
Lex Fridman (51:57.220)
So him being the smartest guy in the room,
Lex Fridman (51:59.460)
but acting dumb was great.
Lex Fridman (52:01.420)
So yeah, Chris Rock has that way of cutting to the bullshit,
Lex Fridman (52:06.980)
which I mentioned earlier.
Mark Normand (52:08.420)
I liked that cutting through the bullshit
Lex Fridman (52:09.980)
kind of style of comedy, because you kind of go,
Mark Normand (52:12.860)
oh, I'm not crazy.
Lex Fridman (52:13.780)
That's what I thought too.
Mark Normand (52:15.060)
I was too scared to say it, but I thought that.
Lex Fridman (52:16.740)
And he's saying it in a room of people are laughing.
Mark Normand (52:19.500)
Maybe I'm not an idiot.
Lex Fridman (52:21.300)
So that helped me.
Lex Fridman (52:22.900)
So it's observational, but not Jerry Seinfeld
Lex Fridman (52:27.260)
observational, it's like going to the darker thing.
Mark Normand (52:30.500)
To like within society.
Lex Fridman (52:32.420)
But I like him too, but seeing it,
Mark Normand (52:34.980)
doing it about stuff like in your life, society.
Lex Fridman (52:38.900)
Yeah, race, gender, government, politics,
Mark Normand (52:42.680)
all that kind of stuff.
Lex Fridman (52:43.520)
Exactly, exactly, sex, human emotions,
Mark Normand (52:46.300)
jealousy, whatever it is, that's the good stuff.
Lex Fridman (52:50.300)
How'd you feel when Norm passed away?
Mark Normand (52:52.260)
Ah, that was a bummer because he was, you know what, 61.
Lex Fridman (52:57.140)
And I just didn't see it coming.
Lex Fridman (53:00.500)
And I just, I've watched so many hours of his stuff
Lex Fridman (53:04.220)
and I've met him and he's like,
Mark Normand (53:07.020)
he was like this comedic bar, like, hey, we got Norm.
Lex Fridman (53:09.300)
You know, there's so much shit comedy.
Mark Normand (53:10.960)
Then you see Norm and you're like, this is next level.
Lex Fridman (53:13.380)
This is savant type shit.
Lex Fridman (53:15.500)
And then to lose him is like, ah, Norm had 20 more years
Lex Fridman (53:19.900)
at least of just content and content and thoughts
Lex Fridman (53:23.160)
and his point of view.
Lex Fridman (53:24.700)
And that's, we'll never get that and that sucks.
Mark Normand (53:27.540)
Yeah, there is something about artists
Lex Fridman (53:29.340)
like Jimi Hendrix dying too early.
Mark Normand (53:32.020)
It's like, you wonder.
Lex Fridman (53:34.060)
What was next?
Lex Fridman (53:35.020)
Yeah, what was next?
Lex Fridman (53:36.180)
But then part of it is like, you know,
Mark Normand (53:39.880)
it all ends for all of us and it's like walking away early
Lex Fridman (53:44.220)
is kind of admirable.
Mark Normand (53:47.860)
It's almost like I did a pretty good job.
Lex Fridman (53:50.780)
Yeah.
Mark Normand (53:51.620)
I'm good with that.
Lex Fridman (53:53.780)
And especially the way he did, which is not telling anybody.
Mark Normand (53:56.580)
I know, nine years, his best friends didn't even know.
Lex Fridman (53:59.580)
And in this world of like victimhood
Lex Fridman (54:01.540)
and I need clicks and I need people to love me,
Lex Fridman (54:03.820)
he could have, he got, you know, canceled
Lex Fridman (54:05.660)
and yelled at and in trouble
Lex Fridman (54:06.700)
and he could have pulled that cancer card and he never did.
Mark Normand (54:09.060)
I mean, the integrity on this motherfucker.
Lex Fridman (54:11.780)
Did you get a chance to interact with him?
Lex Fridman (54:13.180)
Like what, how often did you meet him?
Lex Fridman (54:15.180)
I met him once at the Comedy Cellar
Lex Fridman (54:17.600)
and we chatted for five minutes
Lex Fridman (54:19.460)
and then he went on and did the Letterman set that he did.
Mark Normand (54:21.900)
He was running the Letterman set.
Lex Fridman (54:23.460)
And sweet guy, nice guy, didn't know him that well,
Lex Fridman (54:26.880)
but I mean, he's just brilliant.
Lex Fridman (54:29.000)
And I also love a brilliant guy who does stupid stuff.
Mark Normand (54:33.140)
That's a fun, fun little combo there.
Lex Fridman (54:36.460)
Like silly guys who are actually brilliant also.
Mark Normand (54:40.380)
You know, like Louis CK is a brilliant comic
Lex Fridman (54:42.440)
and he'll do a joke about farting on a kid.
Lex Fridman (54:45.960)
And you're like, that's great
Lex Fridman (54:46.940)
that he still finds farts funny
Lex Fridman (54:49.560)
and he's also this comedic genius guy.
Lex Fridman (54:52.100)
I like that.
Lex Fridman (54:53.460)
And doesn't really acknowledge the genius.
Lex Fridman (54:55.420)
Yeah, yeah.
Mark Normand (54:57.260)
Yeah, I like smart people, they're silly.
Lex Fridman (55:00.740)
Yes, that's a good combo.
Mark Normand (55:02.860)
Like you said, Elon is silly.
Lex Fridman (55:04.180)
Yeah, yeah, super silly. Yeah, that's great.
Mark Normand (55:06.100)
Cause we taught, we teach kids like,
Lex Fridman (55:08.380)
hey, put that down, stop that,
Mark Normand (55:10.140)
quit cutting up, quit horsing around.
Lex Fridman (55:12.340)
But maybe that's some kind of sign of brilliance there.
Mark Normand (55:14.980)
Yeah, being like childlike and silly is a kind of wisdom.
Lex Fridman (55:19.760)
I feel like those people are way wiser
Mark Normand (55:21.620)
than the people that, no offense to me,
Lex Fridman (55:23.980)
wear a suit and take themselves way too seriously.
Mark Normand (55:26.940)
No, but you got a spark in you.
Lex Fridman (55:28.540)
A little bit.
Lex Fridman (55:29.380)
You got a little, what's the word?
Lex Fridman (55:31.180)
Not elf, imp.
Mark Normand (55:34.580)
Little imp in you.
Lex Fridman (55:35.680)
Give that a go.
Lex Fridman (55:36.520)
You know what imp?
Lex Fridman (55:38.060)
Little mischievous, it's like a little.
Lex Fridman (55:40.580)
Is that a Tolkien character, imp?
Lex Fridman (55:43.220)
Yeah, might be.
Mark Normand (55:44.040)
An imp is a European mythological being
Lex Fridman (55:45.940)
similar to a fairy or a demon.
Lex Fridman (55:47.580)
Are you calling me a fairy?
Lex Fridman (55:49.180)
Frequently, no, okay.
Mark Normand (55:50.820)
Similar to a fairy or a demon.
Lex Fridman (55:53.780)
I feel like that's a big leap.
Mark Normand (55:55.220)
Big leap, yeah, that's not a great info bio there.
Lex Fridman (55:58.620)
Frequently described in folklore and superstition,
Mark Normand (56:01.280)
the word may perhaps derive from the term imps,
Lex Fridman (56:04.620)
but with a Y, used to denote a young grafted tree.
Mark Normand (56:09.860)
It's a little mischievous.
Lex Fridman (56:11.100)
You got a twinkle.
Mark Normand (56:12.060)
You're the serious buttoned up guy,
Lex Fridman (56:13.820)
but there's a twinkle.
Mark Normand (56:14.940)
There's a twinkle.
Lex Fridman (56:16.500)
And the audience can see the twinkle,
Lex Fridman (56:17.900)
and that's why you resonate, I think.
Lex Fridman (56:21.420)
I'm sorry.
Mark Normand (56:22.540)
Deep Analysis by Mark Norman, Psychological Analysis.
Lex Fridman (56:25.880)
Okay, but then back to the crafting of the joke.
Mark Normand (56:28.860)
You said Chris Rock and Norm Macdonald.
Lex Fridman (56:30.660)
What for you, how do you know when the joke is done?
Lex Fridman (56:35.380)
Are there some jokes that you're proud of?
Lex Fridman (56:37.780)
Wow, that's well done.
Mark Normand (56:40.960)
Yeah, the joke is done.
Lex Fridman (56:43.340)
It's a tough question
Mark Normand (56:44.300)
because there's so many different kinds of jokes.
Lex Fridman (56:45.500)
There's what we call a chunk, which is a big idea
Mark Normand (56:48.340)
with a bunch of jokes in the middle of it,
Lex Fridman (56:50.140)
and then a big crescendo at the end.
Mark Normand (56:53.180)
Or there's a one liner,
Lex Fridman (56:54.640)
or there's a tag of a joke that's also a joke.
Lex Fridman (56:57.660)
So the jokes come in different,
Lex Fridman (57:01.620)
like I have a joke where I say,
Mark Normand (57:02.620)
I met my girl in that Jewish app.
Lex Fridman (57:04.500)
What's that Jewish app called?
Mark Normand (57:06.660)
PayPal.
Lex Fridman (57:08.020)
Nice.
Mark Normand (57:08.860)
That's the hell, that's what they're asking you
Lex Fridman (57:11.340)
to want from the crowd, but it's a fun turn
Mark Normand (57:15.540)
because you say your thing
Lex Fridman (57:17.100)
and then I hit you with a misdirect
Lex Fridman (57:18.420)
and that's what a joke is.
Lex Fridman (57:19.420)
A joke is basically me saying something that makes sense,
Lex Fridman (57:22.820)
but you didn't see it coming.
Lex Fridman (57:24.500)
And that's a perfect example of that.
Lex Fridman (57:26.200)
So that joke took forever to figure out, by the way.
Lex Fridman (57:29.140)
You have to go to different services like PayPal.
Lex Fridman (57:32.700)
What's funniest?
Lex Fridman (57:33.580)
Exactly, and I figured PayPal is funny
Mark Normand (57:35.820)
because it has the word pay in it.
Lex Fridman (57:38.060)
Venmo, it's also not really a good word, Venmo, PayPal.
Mark Normand (57:42.060)
It just hits better.
Lex Fridman (57:43.140)
Yeah, PayPal is funnier somehow.
Mark Normand (57:44.780)
It's funnier somehow,
Lex Fridman (57:45.620)
and that's the beauty of comedy.
Mark Normand (57:46.460)
There's a weird little magic into it.
Lex Fridman (57:47.920)
You can get technical all day and formulaic,
Lex Fridman (57:50.120)
but there's still that little bit of fairy dust
Lex Fridman (57:53.620)
that you don't know why this is funnier.
Mark Normand (57:55.820)
Or imp dust.
Lex Fridman (57:56.700)
Imp dust, yes.
Mark Normand (57:58.900)
With a Y, okay.
Lex Fridman (58:00.880)
So you know what joke is done when it kills,
Lex Fridman (58:02.600)
and this is a roundness to a joke
Lex Fridman (58:04.620)
when you feel like this is buttoned up.
Mark Normand (58:06.380)
This is done here.
Lex Fridman (58:07.840)
Is simplicity the right word there?
Mark Normand (58:09.960)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (58:10.820)
Is it like you're chopping stuff away
Lex Fridman (58:12.700)
or are you adding stuff?
Lex Fridman (58:13.600)
Like what does it feel like?
Mark Normand (58:14.560)
Simplicity is always the best angle.
Lex Fridman (58:17.220)
I mean, you can get real high concept with a joke
Lex Fridman (58:19.360)
and still make it work, but the simpler the better.
Lex Fridman (58:22.100)
I saw Dave Chappelle on stage once,
Lex Fridman (58:24.900)
and Chris Rock and Demetri Martin were in the back
Lex Fridman (58:28.100)
watching in awe, and Dave Chappelle,
Mark Normand (58:30.500)
I can't remember the joke,
Lex Fridman (58:31.340)
but he said something about sex or women,
Lex Fridman (58:33.940)
and Demetri Martin goes, eh, it's a little easy.
Lex Fridman (58:36.980)
And Chris Rock goes, that's why it's good.
Lex Fridman (58:39.360)
And I remember hearing that as some young comic,
Lex Fridman (58:41.140)
like ah, I'm getting this comedy lesson right here
Mark Normand (58:44.540)
for these two titans.
Lex Fridman (58:46.260)
And so that was fun.
Mark Normand (58:47.700)
Simple is key.
Lex Fridman (58:48.980)
So the easy is okay.
Mark Normand (58:50.140)
That's such a weird, I think I remember reading
Lex Fridman (58:55.060)
or hearing Eminem say something about
Mark Normand (58:57.540)
maybe the song Slim Shade.
Lex Fridman (58:58.860)
One of the songs, he's like, I knew it was gonna be good
Mark Normand (59:02.020)
because it got really repetitive
Lex Fridman (59:05.580)
and annoying very quickly or something like that.
Mark Normand (59:08.060)
I mean, that's the sort of the music equivalent
Lex Fridman (59:10.500)
of it's too easy.
Mark Normand (59:12.900)
Like if it's like super catchy, as a musician,
Lex Fridman (59:16.100)
you might get very quickly bored of it.
Mark Normand (59:19.740)
Or like as you're creating it, no, it's too easy.
Lex Fridman (59:23.340)
It's like there needs to be some more complexity to it.
Mark Normand (59:26.860)
I like complexity, but the best guys
Lex Fridman (59:28.960)
who are the ones who make complex shit look simple.
Mark Normand (59:33.580)
Like you ever heard that Ben Franklin story
Lex Fridman (59:36.940)
where he's talking to his friend,
Mark Normand (59:37.780)
his friend's like, I'm gonna start a hat store.
Lex Fridman (59:39.600)
So he puts a sign out, says, hats for sale, $12.
Lex Fridman (59:43.660)
And Ben Franklin looks at it, he goes,
Lex Fridman (59:46.300)
well, you don't need the $12
Mark Normand (59:47.580)
because all they need to know is that you got hats for sale.
Lex Fridman (59:50.060)
He's like, all right.
Lex Fridman (59:50.900)
So he loses the $12, makes a new sign, hats for sale.
Lex Fridman (59:53.140)
And he goes, you don't really need for sale
Mark Normand (59:55.740)
because it's a business.
Lex Fridman (59:57.060)
People can put that together.
Lex Fridman (59:58.600)
So he just goes, all right.
Lex Fridman (59:59.500)
He makes a new sign, it says hats.
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