Manolis Kellis: Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything

Lex Fridman (01:18.000)

yet another dimension of depth

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to the fascinating mind of Manolis.

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I include links to YouTube versions

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of many of the songs we mentioned in the description,

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and overlay lyrics on occasion.

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But if you're just listening to this

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without listening to the songs or watching the video,

Manolis Kellis (01:34.720)

I hope you still might enjoy, as I did,

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the passion that Manolis has for music,

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his singing of the little excerpts from the songs,

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and in general, the meaning we discuss

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that we pull from the different songs.

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If music is not your thing,

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I do give timestamps to the less musical

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and more philosophical parts of the conversation.

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I hope you enjoy this little experiment

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and conversation about music and life.

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If you do, please subscribe on YouTube,

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review it with five stars on Apple Podcast,

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follow on Spotify, support on Patreon,

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or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman.

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And now, here's my conversation with Manolis Callas.

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You mentioned Leonard Cohen and the song Hallelujah

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as a beautiful song.

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So what are the three songs

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you draw the most meaning from about life?

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Don't get me started.

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So there's really countless songs that have marked me,

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that have sort of shaped me in periods of joy

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and in periods of sadness.

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My son likes to joke that I have a song

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for every sentence he will say,

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because very often I will break into a song

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with a sentence he'll say.

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My wife calls me the radio

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because I can sort of recite hundreds of songs

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that have really shaped me.

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So it's gonna be very hard to just pick a few.

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So I'm just gonna tell you a little bit

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about my song transition as I've grown up.

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In Greece, it was very much about,

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as I told you before, the misery, the poverty,

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but also overcoming adversity.

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So some of the songs that have really shaped me

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are Charis Alexiou, for example,

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is one of my favorite singers in Greece.

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And then there's also really just old traditional songs

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that my parents used to listen to.

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Like one of them is Ani Moun Plousios,

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which is basically, oh, if I was rich.

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And the song is painting this beautiful picture

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about all the noises that you hear in the neighborhood,

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his poor neighborhood, the train going by,

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the priest walking to the church

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and the kids crying next door and all of that.

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And he says, with all of that,

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I'm having trouble falling asleep and dreaming.

Manolis Kellis (03:47.520)

If I was rich, and then he was breaking to that.

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So it's this juxtaposition between the spirit

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and the sublime and then the physical and the harsh reality.

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It's just not having troubles, not being miserable.

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So basically rich to him just means

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out of my misery, basically.

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And then also being able to travel,

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being able to sort of be the captain of a ship

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and see the world and stuff like that.

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So it's just such beautiful imagery.

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So many of the Greek songs, just like the poetry

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we talked about, they acknowledge the cruelty,

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the difficulty of life, but are longing for a better life.

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That's exactly right.

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And another one is Ftokhologia.

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And this is one of those songs that has like a fast

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and joyful half and a slow and sad half.

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And it goes back and forth between them.

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And it's like,

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Ftokhologia, jefse na kathemou dragoouzi.

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So poor, you know, basically it's the state of being poor.

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I don't even know if there's a word for that in English.

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And then fast part is ta kerya sou megalosan

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ke ponesan ke matosan.

Manolis Kellis (04:56.200)

So, and then it's like, oh, you know,

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basically like the state of being poor and misery,

Manolis Kellis (05:02.680)

you know, for you, I write all my songs, et cetera.

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And then the fast part is in your arms,

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grew up and suffered and, you know, stood up and,

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you know, rose, men with clear vision.

Manolis Kellis (05:18.360)

This whole concept of taking on the world

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with nothing to lose because you've seen the worst of it.

Manolis Kellis (05:25.040)

This imagery of psilaki parizopoula harastakorizopoula.

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So it's describing the young men as cypress trees.

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And that's probably one of my earliest exposure

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to a metaphor, to sort of, you know,

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this very rich imagery.

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And I love about the fact that I was reading a story

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to my kids the other day and it was dark.

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And my daughter who's six is like,

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oh, can I please see the pictures?

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And Jonathan, who's eight, so my daughter Cleo is like,

Manolis Kellis (05:53.560)

oh, let's look at the pictures.

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And my son Jonathan, he's like, but Cleo,

Manolis Kellis (05:57.480)

if you look at the pictures, it's just an image.

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If you just close your eyes and listen, it's a video.

Manolis Kellis (06:03.280)

That's brilliant.

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It's beautiful.

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And he's basically showing just how much more

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the human imagination has besides just a few images

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that, you know, the book will give you.

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And then another one, oh gosh,

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this one is really like miserable.

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It's called Sto Perigiali, To Krifo.

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And it's basically describing how vigorously

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we took on our life and we pushed hard

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towards a direction that we then realized

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was the wrong one.

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And again, these songs give you so much perspective.

Lex Fridman (06:39.680)

There's no songs like that in English

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that will basically sort of just smack you in the face

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about sort of the passion and the force and the drive.

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And then it turns out, we just followed the wrong life.

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And it's like, wow.

Manolis Kellis (06:54.480)

Okay, so that was you.

Lex Fridman (06:55.320)

All right, so that's like before 12.

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So growing up in sort of this horrendously miserable

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sort of view of romanticism, of suffering.

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So then my preteen years is like, you know,

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learning English through songs.

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So basically, you know,

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listening to all the American pop songs

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and then memorizing them vocally

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before I even knew what they meant.

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So, you know, Madonna and Michael Jackson

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and all of these sort of really popular songs

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and, you know, George Michael and just songs

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that I would just listen to the radio and repeat vocally.

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And eventually as I started learning English,

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I was like, oh wow, this thing I've been repeating,

Manolis Kellis (07:34.520)

I now understand what it means.

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Without relistening it to it,

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but just with re repeating it, it was like, oh.

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Again, Michael Jackson's Man in the Mirror

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is teaching you that it's your responsibility

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to just improve yourself.

Manolis Kellis (07:49.400)

You know, if you wanna make the world a better place,

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take a look at yourself and make the change.

Manolis Kellis (07:52.960)

This whole concept of, again, I mean,

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all of these songs, you can listen to them shallowly

Manolis Kellis (07:57.000)

or you can just listen to them and say,

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oh, there's deeper meaning here.

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And I think there's a certain philosophy of song

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as a way of touching the psyche.

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So if you look at regions of the brain,

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people have lost their language ability

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because they have an accident in that region of the brain

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can actually sing because it's exactly

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the symmetric region of the brain.

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And that again, teaches you so much

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about language evolution and sort of the duality

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of musicality and, you know, rhythmic patterns

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and eventually language.

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Do you have a sense of why songs developed?

Manolis Kellis (08:34.280)

You're kind of suggesting that it's possible

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that there is something important

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about our connection with song and with music

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on the level of the importance of language.

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Is it possible?

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It's not just possible.

Manolis Kellis (08:48.560)

In my view, language comes after music.

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Language comes after song.

Manolis Kellis (08:52.520)

No, seriously.

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Like basically, my view of human cognitive evolution

Manolis Kellis (08:56.720)

is rituals.

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If you look at many early cultures,

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there's rituals around every stage of life.

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There's organized dance performances around mating.

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And if you look at mate selection,

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I mean, that's an evolutionary drive right there.

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So basically, if you're not able to string together

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a complex dance as a bird, you don't get a mate.

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And that actually forms this development

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for many song learning birds.

Manolis Kellis (09:25.320)

Not every bird knows how to sing.

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And not every bird knows how to learn a complicated song.

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So basically, there's birds that simply have

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the same few tunes that they know how to play.

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And a lot of that is inherent and genetically encoded.

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And others are birds that learn how to sing.

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And if you look at a lot of these exotic birds of paradise

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and stuff like that,

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the mating rituals that they have are enormously amazing.

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And I think human mating rituals of ancient tribes

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are not very far off from that.

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And in my view, the sequential formation of these movements

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is a prelude to the cognitive capabilities

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that ultimately enable language.

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It is fascinating to think that that's

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not just an accidental precursor to intelligence.

Manolis Kellis (10:13.440)

Yeah, sexually selected.

Lex Fridman (10:16.040)

Well, it's sexually selected and it's a prerequisite.

Manolis Kellis (10:19.560)

Yeah.

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It's like, it's required for intelligence.

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And even as language has now developed,

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I think the artistic expression is needed,

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like badly needed by our brain.

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So it's not just that, oh, our brain can kind of,

Manolis Kellis (10:34.920)

you know, take a break and go do that stuff.

Lex Fridman (10:36.840)

No, I mean, you know, I don't know if you remember

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that scene from, oh gosh,

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where's that Jack Nicholson movie in New Hampshire.

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All work and no play, make Jack a dull boy.

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A dull boy.

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The Shining.

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The Shining.

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So there's this amazing scene where he's constantly

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trying to concentrate and what's coming out

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of the typewriter is just gibberish.

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And I have that image as well when I'm working.

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And I'm like, no, basically all of these crazy,

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you know, huge number of hobbies that I have,

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they're not just tolerated by my work.

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They're required by my work.

Manolis Kellis (11:12.000)

This ability of sort of stretching your brain

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in all these different directions

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is connecting your emotional self and your cognitive self.

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And that's a prerequisite to being able

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to be cognitively capable.

Lex Fridman (11:24.720)

At least in my view.

Manolis Kellis (11:25.560)

Yeah, I wonder if the world without art and music,

Lex Fridman (11:28.840)

you're just making me realize that perhaps

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that world would be not just devoid of fun things

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to look at or listen to, but devoid of all the other stuff.

Manolis Kellis (11:38.120)

All the bridges and rockets and science.

Lex Fridman (11:41.160)

Exactly, exactly.

Manolis Kellis (11:42.400)

Creativity is not disconnected from art.

Lex Fridman (11:45.320)

And you know, my kids, I mean, you know,

Manolis Kellis (11:47.520)

I could be doing the full math treatment to them.

Lex Fridman (11:50.520)

No, they play the piano and they play the violin

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and they play sports.

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I mean, this whole, you know, sort of movement

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and going through mazes and playing tennis

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and, you know, playing soccer and avoiding obstacles

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and all of that,

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that forms your three dimensional view of the world.

Manolis Kellis (12:09.120)

Being able to actually move and run and play

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in three dimensions is extremely important for math,

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for, you know, stringing together complicated concepts.

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It's the same underlying cognitive machinery

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that is used for navigating mazes and for navigating theorems

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and sort of solving equations.

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So I can't, you know, I can't have a conversation

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with my students without, you know,

Manolis Kellis (12:33.720)

sort of either using my hands

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or opening the whiteboard in Zoom

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and just constantly drawing.

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Or, you know, back when we had in person meetings,

Manolis Kellis (12:43.800)

just the whiteboard on my own.

Lex Fridman (12:44.640)

The whiteboard, yeah, that's fascinating to think about.

Lex Fridman (12:47.240)

So that's Michael Jackson, man,

Lex Fridman (12:49.440)

Mirror, Careless Whisper with George Michael,

Manolis Kellis (12:52.200)

which is a song I like.

Lex Fridman (12:53.040)

You can say Careless Whisper.

Manolis Kellis (12:54.440)

I mean, I didn't say that.

Lex Fridman (12:55.480)

I like that one.

Manolis Kellis (12:56.320)

That's too popular for you.

Lex Fridman (12:57.960)

I had recorded, no, no, no,

Manolis Kellis (12:59.720)

that it's an amazing song for me.

Lex Fridman (13:01.560)

I had recorded a small part of it

Manolis Kellis (13:03.480)

as it's played at the tail end of the radio.

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And I had a tape where I only had part of that song

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and I just played it over and over and over again,

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just so beautiful.

Manolis Kellis (13:13.680)

It's so heartbreaking.

Lex Fridman (13:15.040)

That song is almost Greek.

Manolis Kellis (13:16.200)

It's so heartbreaking.

Lex Fridman (13:17.040)

I know, and George Michael is Greek.

Lex Fridman (13:19.040)

Is he Greek?

Lex Fridman (13:19.880)

He's Greek, of course.

Manolis Kellis (13:20.760)

George Michaelides, I mean, he's Greek.

Lex Fridman (13:22.680)

Yeah.

Manolis Kellis (13:23.520)

I did not know this.

Lex Fridman (13:24.760)

Now you know.

Manolis Kellis (13:25.600)

I'm so sorry to offend you so deeply not knowing this.

Lex Fridman (13:30.280)

So, okay, so what's...

Lex Fridman (13:31.120)

So anyway, so we're moving to France

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when I'm 12 years old.

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And now I'm getting into the songs of Gainsbourg.

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So Gainsbourg is this incredible French composer.

Manolis Kellis (13:39.520)

He is always seen on stage,

Lex Fridman (13:42.000)

like not even pretending to try to please,

Manolis Kellis (13:44.320)

just like with his cigarette,

Lex Fridman (13:45.280)

just like rrrr mumbling his songs.

Lex Fridman (13:47.480)

But the lyrics are unbelievable.

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Like basically entire sentences will rhyme.

Manolis Kellis (13:53.040)

He will say the same thing twice and you're like, whoa.

Lex Fridman (13:58.000)

And in fact, another, speaking of Greek,

Manolis Kellis (14:00.720)

a French Greek, George Mustaky,

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this song is just magnificent.

Manolis Kellis (14:05.240)

Avec ma gueule de métèque, de juif errant, de patre grecque.

Lex Fridman (14:10.040)

So with my face of métèque is actually a Greek word.

Manolis Kellis (14:15.040)

A Greek word, it's a French word for a Greek word.

Lex Fridman (14:17.840)

But met comes from meta,

Lex Fridman (14:20.080)

and then ec from Ikea, from ecology, which means home.

Lex Fridman (14:23.360)

So métèque is someone who has changed homes for a migrant.

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So with my face of a migrant, and you'll love this one.

Lex Fridman (14:30.040)

De juif errant, de patre grecque,

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of a meandering Jew, of Greek pastor.

Lex Fridman (14:39.600)

So again, the Russian Greek,

Manolis Kellis (14:42.040)

the Jewish Orthodox connection, so.

Lex Fridman (14:45.480)

Aime mes cheveux au quatre vents,

Manolis Kellis (14:46.920)

with my hair in the four wings.

Lex Fridman (14:48.720)

Avec mes yeux tous délavés qui me donnent léreux de rêver.

Manolis Kellis (14:53.160)

Avec, with my eyes that are all washed out,

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who give me the pretense of dreaming,

Lex Fridman (14:58.800)

but who don't dream that much anymore.

Lex Fridman (15:01.240)

With my hands of thief, of musician,

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and who have stolen so many gardens.

Lex Fridman (15:08.960)

With my mouth that has drunk,

Manolis Kellis (15:11.280)

that has kissed, and that has bitten,

Lex Fridman (15:14.520)

without ever pleasing its hunger.

Manolis Kellis (15:17.960)

With my skin that has been rubbed

Lex Fridman (15:23.280)

in the sun of all the summers,

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and anything that was wearing a skirt.

Lex Fridman (15:29.040)

With my heart, and then you have to listen to this verse,

Manolis Kellis (15:32.160)

it's so beautiful.

Lex Fridman (15:33.240)

Avec mon coeur qui a su faire souffrir autant qu il a souffert.

Manolis Kellis (15:38.240)

Qui a su faire.

Lex Fridman (15:39.920)

With my heart that knew how to make suffer

Manolis Kellis (15:44.580)

as much as it suffered,

Lex Fridman (15:46.560)

but was able to, that knew how to make,

Manolis Kellis (15:50.360)

in French it's actually su faire,

Lex Fridman (15:53.160)

that knew how to make.

Manolis Kellis (15:54.760)

Qui a su faire souffrir autant qu il a souffert.

Lex Fridman (15:57.840)

Verses that span the whole thing.

Manolis Kellis (15:59.480)

It's just beautiful.

Lex Fridman (16:00.800)

Do you know, on a small tangent,

Lex Fridman (16:02.920)

do you know Jacques Brel?

Lex Fridman (16:05.760)

Of course, of course.

Lex Fridman (16:07.080)

And then Ne Me Kite Pas, those songs.

Lex Fridman (16:10.240)

That song gets me every time.

Lex Fridman (16:12.560)

So there's a cover of that song

Lex Fridman (16:14.800)

by one of my favorite female artists.

Manolis Kellis (16:17.120)

Not Nina Simone.

Lex Fridman (16:18.400)

No, no, no, no, no.

Lex Fridman (16:19.760)

Modern?

Lex Fridman (16:20.600)

Carol Emerald.

Manolis Kellis (16:21.760)

She's from Amsterdam.

Lex Fridman (16:24.760)

And she has a version of Ne Me Kite Pas

Manolis Kellis (16:28.200)

where she's actually added some English lyrics.

Lex Fridman (16:31.480)

And it's really beautiful.

Lex Fridman (16:33.100)

But again, Ne Me Kite Pas is just so,

Lex Fridman (16:35.280)

I mean it's, you know, the promises,

Manolis Kellis (16:38.360)

the volcanoes that will restart.

Lex Fridman (16:42.000)

It's just so beautiful.

Manolis Kellis (16:43.440)

And.

Lex Fridman (16:44.280)

I love, there's not many songs

Manolis Kellis (16:47.080)

that show such depth of desperation

Lex Fridman (16:51.560)

for another human being.

Manolis Kellis (16:52.880)

That's so powerful.

Lex Fridman (16:54.040)

I apologize.

Manolis Kellis (16:54.880)

Je t offrirai des perles de pluie

Lex Fridman (16:58.000)

venant de pays où il ne pleut pas.

Lex Fridman (17:01.040)

And then high school.

Lex Fridman (17:02.460)

Now I'm starting to learn English.

Lex Fridman (17:03.840)

So I moved to New York.

Lex Fridman (17:05.040)

So Sting's Englishman in New York.

Manolis Kellis (17:07.720)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (17:08.560)

Magnificent song.

Lex Fridman (17:09.920)

And again, there's if manners maggoth manners someone said

Lex Fridman (17:14.280)

then he's the hero of the day.

Manolis Kellis (17:16.840)

It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile.

Lex Fridman (17:20.060)

Be yourself no matter what they say.

Lex Fridman (17:23.600)

And then takes more than combat gear to make a man.

Lex Fridman (17:27.740)

Takes more than a license for a gun.

Manolis Kellis (17:30.640)

Confront your enemies, avoid them when you can.

Lex Fridman (17:34.120)

A gentleman will walk but never run.

Manolis Kellis (17:37.440)

It's again, you're talking about songs

Lex Fridman (17:39.880)

that teach you how to live.

Manolis Kellis (17:41.200)

I mean, this is one of them.

Lex Fridman (17:42.600)

Basically says, it's not the combat gear that makes a man.

Manolis Kellis (17:46.360)

Where's the part where he says, there you go.

Lex Fridman (17:49.500)

Gentleness so brighty are rare in this society.

Manolis Kellis (17:53.800)

At night a candle's brighter than the sun.

Lex Fridman (17:56.800)

So beautiful.

Manolis Kellis (17:57.640)

He basically says, well, you just might be the only one.

Lex Fridman (18:00.520)

Modesty propriety can lead to notoriety.

Manolis Kellis (18:03.720)

You could end up as the only one.

Lex Fridman (18:05.880)

It's, it basically tells you,

Manolis Kellis (18:08.100)

you don't have to be like the others.

Lex Fridman (18:09.840)

Be yourself, show kindness, show generosity.

Manolis Kellis (18:14.000)

Don't, you know, don't let that anger get to you.

Lex Fridman (18:18.260)

You know, the song Fragile.

Lex Fridman (18:19.800)

How fragile we are, how fragile we are.

Lex Fridman (18:22.920)

So again, as in Greece, I didn't even know what that meant.

Lex Fridman (18:26.080)

How fragile we are, but the song was so beautiful.

Lex Fridman (18:28.840)

And then eventually I learned English

Lex Fridman (18:29.960)

and I actually understand the lyrics.

Lex Fridman (18:31.800)

And the song is actually written after the Contras

Manolis Kellis (18:36.920)

murdered Ben Linder in 1987.

Lex Fridman (18:39.680)

And the US eventually turned against supporting

Manolis Kellis (18:43.120)

these guerrillas.

Lex Fridman (18:44.480)

And it was just a political song,

Lex Fridman (18:46.160)

but so such a realization that you can't win

Lex Fridman (18:49.300)

with violence basically.

Lex Fridman (18:51.400)

And that song starts with the most beautiful poetry.

Lex Fridman (18:55.360)

So if blood will flow when flesh and steel are one,

Manolis Kellis (19:00.360)

drying in the color of the evening sun,

Lex Fridman (19:04.640)

tomorrow's rain will wash the stains away,

Lex Fridman (19:08.320)

but something in our minds will always stain.

Lex Fridman (19:11.800)

Perhaps this final act was meant

Manolis Kellis (19:14.320)

to clinch a lifetime's argument

Lex Fridman (19:16.760)

that nothing comes through violence

Lex Fridman (19:19.080)

and nothing ever could.

Lex Fridman (19:21.400)

For all those born beneath an angry star,

Manolis Kellis (19:25.040)

lest we forget how fragile we are.

Lex Fridman (19:28.360)

Damn, right?

Manolis Kellis (19:31.080)

I mean, that's poetry.

Lex Fridman (19:33.680)

It was beautiful.

Lex Fridman (19:35.680)

And he's using the English language

Lex Fridman (19:37.440)

is just such a refined way with deep meanings,

Lex Fridman (19:42.020)

but also words that rhyme just so beautifully

Lex Fridman (19:45.640)

and evocations of when flesh and steel are one.

Manolis Kellis (19:50.720)

I mean, it's just mind boggling.

Lex Fridman (19:53.360)

And then of course the refrain that everybody remembers

Manolis Kellis (19:55.880)

is on and on the rain will fall, et cetera.

Lex Fridman (1:00:01.360)

a dramatically improved hardware

Manolis Kellis (1:00:03.640)

for cognition over dinosaurs.

Lex Fridman (1:00:06.080)

Like basically there's universes where strength won out.

Lex Fridman (1:00:09.440)

And in our planet, in our, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:00:11.640)

particular version of whatever happened in this planet,

Manolis Kellis (1:00:15.560)

cognition won out.

Lex Fridman (1:00:16.920)

And it's kind of cool.

Lex Fridman (1:00:18.000)

I mean, it's a privilege, right?

Lex Fridman (1:00:20.480)

It's kind of like living in Boston instead of,

Manolis Kellis (1:00:22.000)

I don't know, some middle age place

Lex Fridman (1:00:26.560)

where everybody's like hitting each other

Manolis Kellis (1:00:28.040)

with, you know, weapons and sticks.

Lex Fridman (1:00:31.120)

You're back to the Lucky Ones song.

Manolis Kellis (1:00:33.640)

I mean, we are the lucky ones.

Lex Fridman (1:00:36.040)

But the flip side of that is that this hardware

Manolis Kellis (1:00:39.600)

also allows us to develop weapons

Lex Fridman (1:00:41.600)

and methods of destroying ourselves.

Manolis Kellis (1:00:43.840)

Again, I want to go back to Pinker

Lex Fridman (1:00:46.840)

and the better angels of our nature.

Manolis Kellis (1:00:49.520)

The whole concept that civilization

Lex Fridman (1:00:53.960)

and the act of civilizing

Manolis Kellis (1:00:57.040)

has dramatically reduced violence, dramatically.

Lex Fridman (1:01:02.040)

If you look, you know, at every scale,

Manolis Kellis (1:01:05.320)

as soon as organization comes,

Lex Fridman (1:01:07.880)

the state basically owns the right to violence.

Lex Fridman (1:01:12.880)

And eventually the state gives that right

Lex Fridman (1:01:17.520)

of governance to the people,

Lex Fridman (1:01:20.400)

but violence has been eliminated by that state.

Lex Fridman (1:01:23.400)

So this whole concept of central governance

Lex Fridman (1:01:27.080)

and people agreeing to live together

Lex Fridman (1:01:29.760)

and share responsibilities and duties

Manolis Kellis (1:01:33.960)

and, you know, all of that

Lex Fridman (1:01:36.760)

is something that has led so much to less violence,

Manolis Kellis (1:01:41.520)

less death, less suffering, less, you know, poverty,

Lex Fridman (1:01:45.720)

less, you know, war.

Manolis Kellis (1:01:48.720)

I mean, yes, we have the capability to destroy ourselves,

Lex Fridman (1:01:53.520)

but the arc of civilization

Manolis Kellis (1:01:56.520)

has led to much, much less destruction,

Lex Fridman (1:01:58.680)

much, much less war and much more peace.

Lex Fridman (1:02:00.840)

And of course there's blips back and forth

Lex Fridman (1:02:04.000)

and, you know, there are setbacks,

Lex Fridman (1:02:06.400)

but again, the moral arc of the universe.

Lex Fridman (1:02:10.200)

But it seems to just, I probably imagine

Manolis Kellis (1:02:13.280)

there were two dinosaurs back in the day

Lex Fridman (1:02:14.960)

having this exact conversation

Lex Fridman (1:02:17.080)

and they look up to the sky

Lex Fridman (1:02:18.600)

and there seems to be something like an asteroid

Manolis Kellis (1:02:21.200)

going towards Earth.

Lex Fridman (1:02:22.040)

So it's, while it's very true

Manolis Kellis (1:02:24.760)

that the arc of our society of human civilization

Lex Fridman (1:02:28.520)

seems to be progressing towards a better, better life

Manolis Kellis (1:02:31.480)

for everybody in the many ways that you described,

Lex Fridman (1:02:36.760)

things can change in a moment.

Lex Fridman (1:02:39.160)

And it feels like it's not just us humans

Lex Fridman (1:02:41.620)

we're living through a pandemic.

Manolis Kellis (1:02:44.160)

You could imagine that a pandemic would be more destructive

Lex Fridman (1:02:47.960)

or there could be asteroids that just appear

Manolis Kellis (1:02:52.540)

out of the darkness of space,

Lex Fridman (1:02:54.480)

which I recently learned it's not that easy

Manolis Kellis (1:02:57.760)

to actually detect them.

Lex Fridman (1:02:59.920)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:03:00.760)

So 48, what happens in 48 years?

Lex Fridman (1:03:04.620)

I'm not sure.

Manolis Kellis (1:03:05.460)

2068, Apophis.

Lex Fridman (1:03:07.000)

There's an asteroid that's coming.

Manolis Kellis (1:03:09.600)

In 48 years, it has very high chance

Lex Fridman (1:03:11.560)

of actually wiping us out completely.

Manolis Kellis (1:03:13.560)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:03:14.400)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:03:15.240)

So we have 48 years to get our act together.

Lex Fridman (1:03:18.580)

It's not like some distant, distant hypothesis.

Manolis Kellis (1:03:21.040)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:03:21.880)

Like, yeah, sure, they're hard to detect

Lex Fridman (1:03:23.120)

but this one we know about, it's coming.

Lex Fridman (1:03:25.280)

So how do you feel about that?

Lex Fridman (1:03:26.240)

Why are you still so optimistic?

Lex Fridman (1:03:27.200)

Oh gosh, I'm so happy with where we are now.

Manolis Kellis (1:03:29.840)

This is gonna be great.

Lex Fridman (1:03:30.880)

Seriously, if you look at progress,

Manolis Kellis (1:03:32.760)

if you look at, again, the speed with which knowledge

Lex Fridman (1:03:36.880)

has been transferred, what has led to humanity

Lex Fridman (1:03:40.760)

making so many advances so fast?

Lex Fridman (1:03:43.280)

Okay.

Lex Fridman (1:03:44.360)

So what has led to humanity making so many advances

Lex Fridman (1:03:47.560)

is not just the hardware upgrades,

Manolis Kellis (1:03:50.360)

it's also the software upgrades.

Lex Fridman (1:03:52.600)

So by hardware upgrades, I basically mean our neocortex

Lex Fridman (1:03:55.520)

and the expansion and these layers

Lex Fridman (1:03:57.320)

and folds of our brain and all of that.

Manolis Kellis (1:04:00.300)

That's the hardware.

Lex Fridman (1:04:01.380)

The software hasn't,

Manolis Kellis (1:04:03.360)

you know, the hardware hasn't changed much

Lex Fridman (1:04:06.600)

in the last, what, 70,000 years.

Manolis Kellis (1:04:10.680)

As I mentioned last time,

Lex Fridman (1:04:12.000)

if you take a person from ancient Egypt

Lex Fridman (1:04:13.580)

and you bring them up now, they're just as equally fit.

Lex Fridman (1:04:18.020)

So hardware hasn't changed.

Lex Fridman (1:04:20.520)

What has changed is software.

Lex Fridman (1:04:22.480)

What has changed is that we are growing up in societies

Manolis Kellis (1:04:28.920)

that are much more complex.

Lex Fridman (1:04:30.920)

This whole concept of neoteny basically allows

Manolis Kellis (1:04:33.840)

our exponential growth.

Lex Fridman (1:04:35.800)

The concept that our brain has not fully formed,

Manolis Kellis (1:04:39.160)

has not fully stabilized itself until after our teenage years.

Lex Fridman (1:04:43.620)

So we basically have a good 16 years, 18 years

Manolis Kellis (1:04:46.680)

to sort of infuse it with the latest

Lex Fridman (1:04:48.920)

and greatest in software.

Manolis Kellis (1:04:51.240)

If you look at what happened in ancient Greece,

Lex Fridman (1:04:53.920)

why did everything explode at once?

Manolis Kellis (1:04:57.420)

My take on this is that it was the shift

Lex Fridman (1:04:59.720)

from the Egyptian and hieroglyphic software

Manolis Kellis (1:05:03.560)

to the Greek language software.

Lex Fridman (1:05:06.600)

This whole concept of creating abstract notions,

Manolis Kellis (1:05:10.000)

of creating these layers of cognition

Lex Fridman (1:05:16.720)

and layers of meaning and layers of abstraction

Manolis Kellis (1:05:19.560)

for words and ideals and beauty and harmony.

Lex Fridman (1:05:24.800)

How do you write harmony in hieroglyphics?

Manolis Kellis (1:05:26.880)

There's no such thing as, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:05:28.300)

sort of expressing these ideals of peace and justice

Manolis Kellis (1:05:31.600)

and, you know, these concepts of,

Lex Fridman (1:05:34.440)

or even, you know, macabre concepts of doom, et cetera.

Manolis Kellis (1:05:39.720)

You don't have the language for it.

Lex Fridman (1:05:42.200)

Your brain has trouble getting at that concept.

Lex Fridman (1:05:48.360)

So what I'm trying to say is that these software upgrades

Lex Fridman (1:05:53.200)

for human language, human culture,

Manolis Kellis (1:05:57.000)

human environment, human education

Lex Fridman (1:06:00.160)

have basically led to this enormous explosion of knowledge.

Lex Fridman (1:06:04.760)

And eventually after the enlightenment,

Lex Fridman (1:06:07.240)

and as I was mentioning the 42 line Bible

Lex Fridman (1:06:11.360)

and the printed press, the dissemination of knowledge,

Lex Fridman (1:06:13.800)

you basically now have this whole horizontal dispersion

Manolis Kellis (1:06:17.120)

of ideas in addition to the vertical inheritance of genes.

Lex Fridman (1:06:21.360)

So the hardware improvements happen

Manolis Kellis (1:06:24.040)

through vertical inheritance.

Lex Fridman (1:06:25.520)

The software improvements happen

Manolis Kellis (1:06:27.060)

through horizontal inheritance.

Lex Fridman (1:06:28.760)

And the reason why human civilization exploded

Manolis Kellis (1:06:31.400)

is not a hardware change anymore,

Lex Fridman (1:06:32.720)

it's really a software change.

Lex Fridman (1:06:34.600)

So if you're looking at now where we are today,

Lex Fridman (1:06:39.040)

look at coronavirus.

Manolis Kellis (1:06:40.520)

Yes, sure, it could have killed us a hundred years ago,

Lex Fridman (1:06:43.360)

it would have, but it didn't.

Lex Fridman (1:06:45.600)

Why?

Lex Fridman (1:06:46.440)

Because in January, we published the genome.

Manolis Kellis (1:06:51.000)

A month later, less than a month later,

Lex Fridman (1:06:53.020)

the first vaccine designs were done.

Lex Fridman (1:06:54.960)

And now less than a year later, 10 months later,

Lex Fridman (1:06:58.240)

we already have a working vaccine that's 90% efficient.

Manolis Kellis (1:07:01.240)

I mean, that is ridiculous by any standards.

Lex Fridman (1:07:03.760)

And the reason is sharing.

Lex Fridman (1:07:06.000)

So the asteroid, yes, could wipe us out in 48 years,

Lex Fridman (1:07:09.460)

but 48 years?

Manolis Kellis (1:07:11.040)

I mean, look at where we were 48 years ago, technologically.

Lex Fridman (1:07:16.080)

I mean, how much more we understand

Manolis Kellis (1:07:18.420)

the basic foundations of space is enormous.

Lex Fridman (1:07:23.020)

The technological revolutions of digitization,

Manolis Kellis (1:07:27.360)

the amount of compute power we can put

Lex Fridman (1:07:29.900)

on any nail size hardware is enormous.

Lex Fridman (1:07:37.600)

And this is nowhere near ending.

Lex Fridman (1:07:40.580)

We all have our little problems going back and forth

Manolis Kellis (1:07:43.820)

on the social side and on the political side,

Lex Fridman (1:07:46.240)

on the sort of human side and the societal side,

Lex Fridman (1:07:50.600)

but science has not slowed down.

Lex Fridman (1:07:54.120)

Science is moving at a breakneck pace ahead.

Manolis Kellis (1:07:57.400)

So, you know, Elon is now putting rockets out

Lex Fridman (1:08:00.640)

from the private space.

Manolis Kellis (1:08:01.700)

I mean, that now democratization of space exploration

Lex Fridman (1:08:06.080)

is, you know, gonna revolutionize everything.

Manolis Kellis (1:08:07.920)

It's gonna explode, continue.

Lex Fridman (1:08:09.800)

In the same way that every technology has exploded,

Manolis Kellis (1:08:12.600)

this is the shift to space technology exploding.

Lex Fridman (1:08:15.940)

So 48 years is infinity from now

Manolis Kellis (1:08:19.360)

in terms of space capabilities.

Lex Fridman (1:08:21.300)

So I'm not worried at all.

Manolis Kellis (1:08:22.640)

Are you excited by the possibility of a human,

Lex Fridman (1:08:25.840)

well, one, a human stepping foot on Mars

Lex Fridman (1:08:28.440)

and two, possible colonization of not necessarily Mars,

Lex Fridman (1:08:33.060)

but other planets and all that kind of stuff

Lex Fridman (1:08:34.840)

for people living in space?

Lex Fridman (1:08:36.120)

Inevitable.

Manolis Kellis (1:08:37.120)

Inevitable. Inevitable.

Lex Fridman (1:08:38.320)

Would you do it?

Manolis Kellis (1:08:39.160)

Or do you kind of like Earth? Of course, of course.

Lex Fridman (1:08:41.520)

You know, how many?

Lex Fridman (1:08:42.360)

How many people will you wait?

Lex Fridman (1:08:44.000)

Will you wait for, I think it was about

Manolis Kellis (1:08:46.080)

when the Declaration of Independence was signed,

Lex Fridman (1:08:50.000)

about two to three million people lived here.

Lex Fridman (1:08:52.560)

So would you move like before?

Lex Fridman (1:08:54.440)

Would you be like on the first boat?

Lex Fridman (1:08:57.000)

Would you be on the 10th boat?

Lex Fridman (1:08:58.300)

Would you wait until the Declaration of Independence?

Manolis Kellis (1:09:00.480)

I don't think I'll be on the short list

Lex Fridman (1:09:02.120)

because I'll be old by then.

Manolis Kellis (1:09:04.000)

They'll probably get a bunch of younger people.

Lex Fridman (1:09:06.120)

But you're, it's the wisdom and the,

Manolis Kellis (1:09:11.160)

then again, you are the lucky one.

Lex Fridman (1:09:12.000)

But wisdom can be transferred horizontally.

Manolis Kellis (1:09:13.640)

I gotta tell you, you are the lucky one.

Lex Fridman (1:09:15.240)

So you might be on the list.

Manolis Kellis (1:09:16.200)

I don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:09:17.040)

I mean, I kind of feel like I would love

Manolis Kellis (1:09:20.320)

to see Earth from above, just to watch our planet.

Lex Fridman (1:09:23.840)

I mean, just, I mean, you know,

Manolis Kellis (1:09:25.560)

you can watch a live feed of the space station.

Lex Fridman (1:09:29.360)

Watching Earth is magnificent,

Manolis Kellis (1:09:32.640)

like this blue tiny little shield.

Lex Fridman (1:09:35.840)

It's so thin, our atmosphere.

Manolis Kellis (1:09:38.040)

Like if you drive to New York,

Lex Fridman (1:09:39.180)

you're basically in outer space.

Manolis Kellis (1:09:40.560)

I mean, it's ridiculous.

Lex Fridman (1:09:41.480)

It's just so thin.

Lex Fridman (1:09:42.520)

And it's just, again, such a privilege

Lex Fridman (1:09:45.060)

to be on this planet, such a privilege.

Lex Fridman (1:09:47.300)

But I think our species is in for big, good things.

Lex Fridman (1:09:54.860)

I think that, you know,

Manolis Kellis (1:09:56.340)

we will overcome our little problems

Lex Fridman (1:09:58.820)

and eventually come together as a species.

Manolis Kellis (1:10:01.420)

I feel that we're definitely on the path to that.

Lex Fridman (1:10:04.380)

And, you know, it's just not permeated

Manolis Kellis (1:10:07.900)

through the whole universe yet.

Lex Fridman (1:10:09.660)

I mean, through the whole world yet,

Manolis Kellis (1:10:11.260)

through the whole Earth yet,

Lex Fridman (1:10:12.580)

but it's definitely permeating.

Lex Fridman (1:10:15.380)

So you've talked about humans as special.

Lex Fridman (1:10:18.860)

How exactly are we special relative to the dinosaurs?

Lex Fridman (1:10:24.280)

So I mentioned that there's, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:10:27.520)

this dramatic cognitive improvement that we've made,

Lex Fridman (1:10:31.720)

but I think it goes much deeper than that.

Lex Fridman (1:10:34.000)

So if you look at a lion attacking a gazelle

Manolis Kellis (1:10:38.740)

in the middle of the Serengeti,

Lex Fridman (1:10:40.980)

the lion is smelling the molecules in the environment.

Manolis Kellis (1:10:45.660)

Its hormones and neuro receptors

Lex Fridman (1:10:51.500)

are sort of getting it ready for impulse.

Manolis Kellis (1:10:54.500)

The target is constantly looking around and sensing.

Lex Fridman (1:10:58.420)

I've actually been in Kenya and I've kind of seen the hunt.

Lex Fridman (1:11:02.980)

So I've kind of seen the sort of game of waiting

Lex Fridman (1:11:07.220)

and the mitochondria in the muscles of the lion

Manolis Kellis (1:11:13.340)

are basically ready for, you know, jumping.

Lex Fridman (1:11:18.600)

They're expensing an enormous amount of energy.

Manolis Kellis (1:11:21.500)

The grass as it's flowing

Lex Fridman (1:11:23.500)

is constantly transforming solar energy into chloroplasts,

Manolis Kellis (1:11:29.840)

you know, through the chloroplast into energy,

Lex Fridman (1:11:32.160)

which eventually feeds the gazelle

Lex Fridman (1:11:34.620)

and eventually feeds the lions.

Lex Fridman (1:11:36.940)

And so on and so forth.

Lex Fridman (1:11:37.860)

So as humans, we experience all of that,

Lex Fridman (1:11:44.360)

but the lion only experiences one layer.

Manolis Kellis (1:11:49.580)

The mitochondria in its body

Lex Fridman (1:11:51.100)

are only experiencing one layer.

Manolis Kellis (1:11:52.500)

The chloroplasts are only experiencing one layer.

Lex Fridman (1:11:55.540)

The, you know, photoreceptors and the smell receptors

Lex Fridman (1:11:59.780)

and the chemical receptors,

Lex Fridman (1:12:00.620)

like the lion always attacks against the wind

Lex Fridman (1:12:02.820)

so that it's not smelled.

Lex Fridman (1:12:04.060)

Like all of these things are one layer at a time.

Lex Fridman (1:12:11.140)

And we humans somehow perceive the whole stack.

Lex Fridman (1:12:14.740)

So going back to software infrastructure

Lex Fridman (1:12:17.060)

and hardware infrastructure,

Lex Fridman (1:12:18.660)

if you design a computer,

Manolis Kellis (1:12:20.620)

you basically have a physical layer that you start with.

Lex Fridman (1:12:23.260)

And then on top of that physical layer,

Manolis Kellis (1:12:24.820)

you have, you know, the electrical layer.

Lex Fridman (1:12:27.300)

And on top of the electrical layer,

Manolis Kellis (1:12:28.660)

you have basically gates and logic and an assembly layer.

Lex Fridman (1:12:32.660)

And on top of the assembly layer,

Manolis Kellis (1:12:33.700)

you have your, you know, higher order,

Lex Fridman (1:12:36.500)

higher level programming.

Lex Fridman (1:12:37.660)

And on top of that,

Lex Fridman (1:12:38.500)

you have your deep learning routine, et cetera.

Lex Fridman (1:12:40.180)

And on top of that,

Lex Fridman (1:12:41.020)

you eventually build a cognitive system that's smart.

Manolis Kellis (1:12:46.060)

I want you to now picture this cognitive system

Lex Fridman (1:12:49.540)

becoming not just self aware,

Lex Fridman (1:12:53.380)

but also becoming aware of the hardware that it's made of

Lex Fridman (1:12:57.820)

and the atoms that it's made of and so on and so forth.

Lex Fridman (1:13:01.180)

So it's as if your AI system,

Lex Fridman (1:13:03.700)

and there's this beautiful scene in 2001 Odyssey of Space,

Manolis Kellis (1:13:08.580)

where Hull, after Dave starts disconnecting him,

Lex Fridman (1:13:13.060)

is starting to sing a song about daisies, et cetera.

Lex Fridman (1:13:17.700)

And Hull is basically saying, Dave, I'm losing my mind.

Lex Fridman (1:13:24.020)

I can feel I'm losing my mind.

Manolis Kellis (1:13:26.500)

It's just so beautiful.

Lex Fridman (1:13:28.140)

This concept of self awareness of knowing

Manolis Kellis (1:13:31.620)

that the hardware is no longer there is amazing.

Lex Fridman (1:13:35.300)

And in the same way humans who have had accidents

Manolis Kellis (1:13:39.100)

are aware that they've had accidents.

Lex Fridman (1:13:42.100)

So there's this self awareness of AI

Manolis Kellis (1:13:45.300)

that is, you know, this beautiful concept about,

Lex Fridman (1:13:49.300)

you know, sort of the eventual cognitive leap

Manolis Kellis (1:13:52.780)

to self awareness.

Lex Fridman (1:13:54.620)

But imagine now the AI system

Manolis Kellis (1:13:57.260)

actually breaking through these layers

Lex Fridman (1:13:58.540)

and saying, wait a minute,

Manolis Kellis (1:13:59.380)

I think I can design a slightly better hardware

Lex Fridman (1:14:01.860)

to get me functioning better.

Lex Fridman (1:14:03.460)

And that's what basically humans are doing.

Lex Fridman (1:14:05.740)

So if you look at our reasoning layer,

Manolis Kellis (1:14:08.460)

it's built on top of a cognitive layer.

Lex Fridman (1:14:11.220)

And the reasoning layer we share with AI,

Manolis Kellis (1:14:13.420)

it's kind of cool.

Lex Fridman (1:14:14.500)

Like there is another thing on the planet

Manolis Kellis (1:14:16.540)

that can integrate equations and it's manmade,

Lex Fridman (1:14:19.420)

but we share computation with them.

Manolis Kellis (1:14:22.140)

We share this cognitive layer of playing chess.

Lex Fridman (1:14:24.860)

We're not alone anymore.

Manolis Kellis (1:14:26.580)

We're not the only thing on the planet that plays chess.

Lex Fridman (1:14:28.460)

Now we have AI that also plays chess.

Lex Fridman (1:14:31.300)

But in some sense that that particular organism,

Lex Fridman (1:14:33.780)

AI as it is now only operates in that layer.

Manolis Kellis (1:14:36.300)

Exactly.

Lex Fridman (1:14:37.340)

Exactly.

Lex Fridman (1:14:38.180)

And then most animals operate

Lex Fridman (1:14:40.180)

in the sort of cognitive layer that we're all experiencing.

Manolis Kellis (1:14:43.820)

A bat is doing this incredible integration of signals,

Lex Fridman (1:14:48.060)

but it's not aware of it.

Manolis Kellis (1:14:50.020)

It's basically constantly sending echo location waves

Lex Fridman (1:14:55.020)

and it's receiving them back.

Lex Fridman (1:14:56.580)

And multiple bats in the same cave

Lex Fridman (1:14:58.780)

are operating at slightly different frequencies

Lex Fridman (1:15:01.340)

and with slightly different pulses.

Lex Fridman (1:15:03.380)

And they're all sensing objects

Lex Fridman (1:15:04.860)

and they're doing motion planning

Lex Fridman (1:15:07.020)

in their cognitive hardware,

Lex Fridman (1:15:08.460)

but they're not even aware of all of that.

Lex Fridman (1:15:10.380)

All they know is that they have a 3D view of space

Manolis Kellis (1:15:13.500)

around them, just like any gazelle walking through,

Lex Fridman (1:15:17.020)

you know, the desert.

Lex Fridman (1:15:18.620)

And any baby looking around is aware of things

Lex Fridman (1:15:23.220)

without doing the math of how am I processing

Manolis Kellis (1:15:26.540)

all of these visual information, et cetera.

Lex Fridman (1:15:28.580)

You're just aware of the layer that you live in.

Manolis Kellis (1:15:31.500)

I think if you look at this, at humanity,

Lex Fridman (1:15:35.740)

we've basically managed through our cognitive layer,

Manolis Kellis (1:15:38.740)

through our perception layer, through our senses layer,

Lex Fridman (1:15:41.660)

through our multi organ layer, through our genetic layer,

Manolis Kellis (1:15:46.900)

through our molecular layer, through our atomic layer,

Lex Fridman (1:15:51.820)

through our quantum layer,

Manolis Kellis (1:15:54.340)

through even the very fabric of the space time continuum

Lex Fridman (1:15:58.140)

unite all of that cognitively.

Lex Fridman (1:16:00.620)

So as we're watching that scene in the Serengeti,

Lex Fridman (1:16:04.460)

we as scientists, we as educated humans,

Manolis Kellis (1:16:07.300)

we as, you know, anyone who's finished high school

Lex Fridman (1:16:09.980)

are aware of all of this beauty

Manolis Kellis (1:16:12.060)

of all of these different layers interplaying together.

Lex Fridman (1:16:14.700)

And I think that's something very unique

Manolis Kellis (1:16:16.660)

in perhaps not just the galaxy, but maybe even the cosmos.

Lex Fridman (1:16:20.100)

This species that has managed to in space

Manolis Kellis (1:16:25.980)

cross through these layers from the enormous

Lex Fridman (1:16:29.420)

to the infinitely small.

Lex Fridman (1:16:30.780)

And that's what I love about particle physics.

Lex Fridman (1:16:33.140)

The fact that it actually unites everything.

Manolis Kellis (1:16:35.780)

The very small and the very big.

Lex Fridman (1:16:36.620)

The very small and the very big.

Manolis Kellis (1:16:38.020)

It's only through the very big

Lex Fridman (1:16:39.300)

that the very small gets formed.

Manolis Kellis (1:16:41.340)

Like basically every atom of gold

Lex Fridman (1:16:44.260)

results from the fusion that happened

Manolis Kellis (1:16:47.860)

of increasingly large particles before that explosion

Lex Fridman (1:16:51.420)

that then disperses it through the cosmos.

Lex Fridman (1:16:53.620)

And it's only through understanding the very large

Lex Fridman (1:16:57.220)

that we understand the very small and vice versa.

Lex Fridman (1:16:59.540)

And that's in space.

Lex Fridman (1:17:01.980)

Then there's the time direction.

Manolis Kellis (1:17:04.820)

As you are watching the Kilimanjaro mountain,

Lex Fridman (1:17:08.660)

you can kind of look back through time

Manolis Kellis (1:17:11.660)

to when that volcano was exploding

Lex Fridman (1:17:14.300)

and growing out of the tectonic forces.

Manolis Kellis (1:17:17.740)

As you drive through Death Valley,

Lex Fridman (1:17:20.420)

you see these mountains on their side

Lex Fridman (1:17:23.380)

and these layers of history exposed.

Lex Fridman (1:17:28.260)

We are aware of the eons that have happened on earth

Lex Fridman (1:17:34.380)

and the tectonic movements on earth.

Lex Fridman (1:17:37.220)

The same way that we're aware of the Big Bang

Lex Fridman (1:17:41.220)

and the early evolution of the cosmos.

Lex Fridman (1:17:44.620)

And we can also see forward in time

Manolis Kellis (1:17:46.620)

as to where the universe is heading.

Lex Fridman (1:17:48.380)

We can see Apophis in 2068 coming over,

Manolis Kellis (1:17:53.340)

looking ahead in time.

Lex Fridman (1:17:54.340)

I mean, that would be magician stuff in ancient times.

Lex Fridman (1:17:58.780)

So what I love about humanity and its role in the universe

Lex Fridman (1:18:02.420)

is that if there's a God watching,

Manolis Kellis (1:18:05.820)

he's like, finally, somebody figured it out.

Lex Fridman (1:18:08.300)

I've been building all these beautiful things

Lex Fridman (1:18:10.460)

and somebody can appreciate it.

Lex Fridman (1:18:11.620)

And figured me out from God's perspective,

Manolis Kellis (1:18:13.780)

meaning become aware of, you know.

Lex Fridman (1:18:16.980)

Yeah, so it's kind of interesting

Manolis Kellis (1:18:18.900)

to think of the world in this way as layers

Lex Fridman (1:18:21.980)

and us humans are able to convert those layers

Lex Fridman (1:18:25.380)

into ideas that you can then combine, right?

Lex Fridman (1:18:29.940)

So we're doing some kind of conversion.

Manolis Kellis (1:18:32.060)

Exactly, exactly.

Lex Fridman (1:18:33.500)

And last time you asked me about

Manolis Kellis (1:18:35.220)

whether we live in a simulation, for example.

Lex Fridman (1:18:37.660)

I mean, realize that we are living in a simulation.

Manolis Kellis (1:18:42.660)

We are, the reality that we're in

Lex Fridman (1:18:45.020)

without any sort of person programming this is a simulation.

Lex Fridman (1:18:48.820)

Like basically what happens inside your skull?

Lex Fridman (1:18:51.660)

There's this integration of sensory inputs

Manolis Kellis (1:18:55.060)

which are translated into perceptory signals,

Lex Fridman (1:18:57.820)

which are then translated into a conceptual model

Manolis Kellis (1:19:00.500)

of the world around you.

Lex Fridman (1:19:02.540)

And that exercise is happening seamlessly.

Lex Fridman (1:19:06.820)

And yet, you know, if you think about sort of, again,

Lex Fridman (1:19:11.020)

this whole simulation and Neo analogy,

Manolis Kellis (1:19:15.180)

you can think of the reality that we live in as a matrix,

Lex Fridman (1:19:18.380)

as the matrix, but we've actually broken through the matrix.

Manolis Kellis (1:19:22.300)

We've actually traversed the layers.

Lex Fridman (1:19:23.940)

We didn't have to take a pill, like we didn't, you know,

Manolis Kellis (1:19:27.620)

Morpheus didn't have to show up

Lex Fridman (1:19:29.420)

to basically give us the blue pill or the red pill.

Manolis Kellis (1:19:31.820)

We were able to sufficiently evolve cognitively

Lex Fridman (1:19:35.900)

through the hardware explosion

Lex Fridman (1:19:37.780)

and sufficiently evolve scientifically

Lex Fridman (1:19:41.180)

through the software explosion

Manolis Kellis (1:19:43.020)

to basically get at breaking through the matrix,

Lex Fridman (1:19:45.780)

realizing that we live in a matrix

Lex Fridman (1:19:47.820)

and realizing that we are this thing in there.

Lex Fridman (1:19:51.220)

And yet that thing in there has a consciousness

Manolis Kellis (1:19:53.780)

that lives through all these layers.

Lex Fridman (1:19:57.140)

And I think we're the only species.

Manolis Kellis (1:19:58.500)

We're the only thing that we even can think of

Lex Fridman (1:20:00.460)

that has actually done that,

Manolis Kellis (1:20:01.620)

that has sort of permeated space and time scales

Lex Fridman (1:20:09.780)

and layers of abstraction plowing through them

Lex Fridman (1:20:13.820)

and realizing what we're really, really made of.

Lex Fridman (1:20:16.940)

And the next frontier is of course, cognition.

Lex Fridman (1:20:20.020)

So we understand so much of the cosmos,

Lex Fridman (1:20:22.540)

so much of the stuff around us,

Lex Fridman (1:20:24.340)

but the stuff inside here, finding the basis for the soul,

Lex Fridman (1:20:28.060)

finding the basis for the ego, for the self,

Manolis Kellis (1:20:31.300)

the self awareness, when does the spark happen

Lex Fridman (1:20:35.180)

that basically sort of makes you you?

Manolis Kellis (1:20:38.820)

I mean, that's really the next frontier.

Lex Fridman (1:20:41.060)

So in terms of these peeling off layers of complexity,

Manolis Kellis (1:20:44.980)

somewhere between the cognitive layer

Lex Fridman (1:20:47.420)

and the reasoning layer or the computational layer,

Manolis Kellis (1:20:52.460)

there's still some stuff to be figured out there.

Lex Fridman (1:20:54.460)

And I think that's the final frontier

Manolis Kellis (1:20:56.020)

of sort of completing our journey through that matrix.

Lex Fridman (1:20:59.020)

And maybe duplicating it in other versions of ourselves

Manolis Kellis (1:21:03.980)

through AI, which is another very exciting possibility.

Lex Fridman (1:21:08.660)

What I love about AI and the way that it operates right now

Manolis Kellis (1:21:12.700)

is the fact that it is unpredictable.

Lex Fridman (1:21:16.020)

There's emergent behavior

Manolis Kellis (1:21:18.380)

in our cognitively capable artificial systems

Lex Fridman (1:21:23.660)

that we can certainly model,

Lex Fridman (1:21:26.580)

but we don't encode directly.

Lex Fridman (1:21:30.020)

And that's a key difference.

Lex Fridman (1:21:32.500)

So we like to say, oh, of course,

Lex Fridman (1:21:35.460)

this is not really intelligent because we coded it up.

Lex Fridman (1:21:38.900)

And we've just put in these little parameters there

Lex Fridman (1:21:41.500)

and there's like six billion parameters

Lex Fridman (1:21:43.700)

and once you've learned them,

Lex Fridman (1:21:45.660)

we kind of understand the layers.

Lex Fridman (1:21:48.140)

But that's an oversimplification.

Lex Fridman (1:21:50.380)

It's like saying, oh, of course, humans,

Manolis Kellis (1:21:53.260)

we understand humans, they're just made out of neurons

Lex Fridman (1:21:55.580)

and layers of cortex and there's a visual area.

Lex Fridman (1:22:01.220)

But every human is encoded

Lex Fridman (1:22:04.140)

by a ridiculously small number of genes

Manolis Kellis (1:22:06.380)

compared to the complexity of our cognitive apparatus.

Lex Fridman (1:22:09.500)

20,000 genes is really not that much

Manolis Kellis (1:22:11.540)

out of which a tiny little fraction

Lex Fridman (1:22:13.420)

are in fact encoding all of our cognitive functions.

Manolis Kellis (1:22:16.340)

The rest is emergent behavior.

Lex Fridman (1:22:19.740)

The rest is the cortical layers

Manolis Kellis (1:22:24.740)

doing their thing in the same way

Lex Fridman (1:22:27.460)

that when we build these conversational systems

Manolis Kellis (1:22:30.980)

or these cognitive systems or these deep learning systems,

Lex Fridman (1:22:34.540)

we put the architecture in place,

Lex Fridman (1:22:36.100)

but then they do their thing.

Lex Fridman (1:22:37.620)

And in some ways,

Manolis Kellis (1:22:38.740)

that's creating something that has its own identity.

Lex Fridman (1:22:41.620)

That's creating something that's not just,

Manolis Kellis (1:22:43.620)

oh yeah, it's not the early AI

Lex Fridman (1:22:45.820)

where if you hadn't programmed

Lex Fridman (1:22:47.100)

what happens in the grocery bags

Lex Fridman (1:22:49.140)

when you have both cold and hot and hard and soft,

Manolis Kellis (1:22:52.980)

the system wouldn't know what to do.

Lex Fridman (1:22:54.540)

No, no, you basically now just program the primitives

Lex Fridman (1:22:57.660)

and then it learns from that.

Lex Fridman (1:22:59.460)

So even though the origins are humble,

Manolis Kellis (1:23:01.220)

just like it is for our genetic code,

Lex Fridman (1:23:03.340)

for AI, even though the origins are humble,

Manolis Kellis (1:23:05.500)

the result of it being deployed into the world

Lex Fridman (1:23:11.420)

is infinitely complex.

Lex Fridman (1:23:16.860)

And yet, it's not yet able to be cognizant

Lex Fridman (1:23:21.620)

of all the other layers of its,

Manolis Kellis (1:23:25.540)

you know, it's not able to think about space and time.

Lex Fridman (1:23:33.020)

It's not able to think about the hardware in which it runs,

Manolis Kellis (1:23:35.780)

the electricity in which it runs yet.

Lex Fridman (1:23:38.420)

So if you look at humans,

Manolis Kellis (1:23:41.060)

we basically have the same cognitive architecture

Lex Fridman (1:23:43.300)

as monkeys, as the great apes.

Manolis Kellis (1:23:45.660)

It's just a ton more of it.

Lex Fridman (1:23:48.220)

If you look at GPT3 versus GPT2,

Manolis Kellis (1:23:52.180)

again, it's the same architecture, just more of it.

Lex Fridman (1:23:55.460)

And yet it's able to do so much more.

Lex Fridman (1:23:58.460)

So if you start thinking about sort of

Lex Fridman (1:23:59.940)

what's the future of that, GPT4 and GPT5,

Lex Fridman (1:24:03.100)

do you really need fundamentally different architectures

Lex Fridman (1:24:05.340)

or do you just need a ton more hardware?

Lex Fridman (1:24:07.820)

And we do have a ton more hardware.

Lex Fridman (1:24:10.340)

Like these systems are nowhere near

Lex Fridman (1:24:12.580)

what humans have between our ears.

Lex Fridman (1:24:15.540)

So, you know, there's something to be said

Manolis Kellis (1:24:19.300)

about stay tuned for emergent behavior.

Lex Fridman (1:24:22.900)

We keep thinking that general intelligence

Manolis Kellis (1:24:24.740)

might just be forever away,

Lex Fridman (1:24:27.700)

but it could just simply be that

Manolis Kellis (1:24:29.820)

we just need a ton more hardware

Lex Fridman (1:24:31.860)

and that humans are just not that different

Manolis Kellis (1:24:33.620)

from the great apes, except for just a ton more of it.

Lex Fridman (1:24:37.260)

Yeah, it's interesting that in the AI community,

Manolis Kellis (1:24:41.060)

maybe there's a human centric fear,

Lex Fridman (1:24:43.540)

but the notion that GPT10 will achieve general intelligence

Manolis Kellis (1:24:49.980)

is something that people shy away from,

Lex Fridman (1:24:51.940)

that there has to be something totally different

Lex Fridman (1:24:54.300)

and new added to this.

Lex Fridman (1:24:56.220)

And yet it's not seriously considered that

Manolis Kellis (1:25:01.100)

this very simple thing, this very simple architecture,

Lex Fridman (1:25:05.140)

when scaled, might be the thing

Manolis Kellis (1:25:07.460)

that achieves super intelligence.

Lex Fridman (1:25:09.100)

And people think the same way about humanity

Lex Fridman (1:25:11.580)

and human consciousness.

Lex Fridman (1:25:13.180)

They're like, oh, consciousness might be quantum,

Manolis Kellis (1:25:15.220)

or it might be, you know, some nonphysical thing.

Lex Fridman (1:25:18.220)

And it's like, or it could just be a lot more

Manolis Kellis (1:25:21.620)

of the same hardware that now is sufficiently capable

Lex Fridman (1:25:25.820)

of self awareness just because it has the neurons to do it.

Lex Fridman (1:25:29.380)

So maybe the consciousness that is so elusive

Lex Fridman (1:25:33.660)

is an emergent behavior of you basically string together

Manolis Kellis (1:25:38.260)

all these cognitive capabilities that come from running,

Lex Fridman (1:25:41.340)

from seeing, for reacting,

Manolis Kellis (1:25:43.260)

from predicting the movement of a fly

Lex Fridman (1:25:45.620)

as you're catching it through the air.

Manolis Kellis (1:25:47.300)

All of these things are just like great lookup tables

Lex Fridman (1:25:49.540)

encoded in a giant neural network.

Manolis Kellis (1:25:51.420)

I mean, I'm oversimplifying, of course,

Lex Fridman (1:25:53.060)

the complexity and the diversity of the different types

Manolis Kellis (1:25:55.540)

of excitatory and inhibitory neurons,

Lex Fridman (1:25:57.260)

the wave forms that sort of shine through

Manolis Kellis (1:26:01.860)

the connections across all these different layers,

Lex Fridman (1:26:04.740)

the amalgamation of signals, et cetera.

Manolis Kellis (1:26:06.900)

The brain is enormously complex.

Lex Fridman (1:26:08.500)

I mean, of course.

Lex Fridman (1:26:09.580)

But again, it's a small number of primitives

Lex Fridman (1:26:11.580)

encoded by a tiny number of genes,

Manolis Kellis (1:26:14.260)

which are self organized and shaped by their environment.

Lex Fridman (1:26:21.140)

Babies that are growing up today

Manolis Kellis (1:26:23.420)

are listening to language from conception.

Lex Fridman (1:26:28.460)

Basically, as soon as the auditory apparatus forms,

Manolis Kellis (1:26:32.300)

it's already getting shaped to the types of signals

Lex Fridman (1:26:35.100)

that are out in the real world today.

Lex Fridman (1:26:37.180)

So it's not just like, oh, have an Egyptian be born

Lex Fridman (1:26:39.300)

and then ship them over.

Manolis Kellis (1:26:40.540)

It's like, no, that Egyptian would be listening in

Lex Fridman (1:26:44.300)

to the complexity of the world and then getting born

Lex Fridman (1:26:46.420)

and sort of seeing just how much more complex the world is.

Lex Fridman (1:26:49.620)

So it's a combination of the underlying hardware,

Manolis Kellis (1:26:53.940)

which if you think about as a geneticist,

Lex Fridman (1:26:57.540)

in my view, the hardware gives you an upper bound

Manolis Kellis (1:27:00.100)

of cognitive capabilities,

Lex Fridman (1:27:02.260)

but it's the environment that makes those capabilities shine

Lex Fridman (1:27:05.260)

and reach their maximum.

Lex Fridman (1:27:06.980)

So we're a combination of nature and nurture.

Manolis Kellis (1:27:11.060)

The nature is our genes and our cognitive apparatus.

Lex Fridman (1:27:15.300)

And the nurture is the richness of the environment

Manolis Kellis (1:27:18.620)

that makes that cognitive apparatus reach its potential.

Lex Fridman (1:27:22.140)

And we are so far from reaching our full potential, so far.

Manolis Kellis (1:27:27.380)

I think that kids being born a hundred years from now,

Lex Fridman (1:27:31.060)

they'll be looking at us now and saying

Lex Fridman (1:27:33.500)

what primitive educational systems they had.

Lex Fridman (1:27:36.500)

I can't believe people were not wired

Manolis Kellis (1:27:38.180)

into this virtual reality from birth as we are now,

Lex Fridman (1:27:42.740)

cause like they're clearly inferior and so on and so forth.

Manolis Kellis (1:27:46.180)

I basically think that our environment

Lex Fridman (1:27:48.100)

will continue exploding and our cognitive capabilities,

Manolis Kellis (1:27:53.220)

it's not like, oh, we're only using 10% of our brain.

Lex Fridman (1:27:55.220)

That's ridiculous.

Manolis Kellis (1:27:56.060)

Of course, we're using 100% of our brain,

Lex Fridman (1:27:57.660)

but it's still constrained by how complex

Manolis Kellis (1:28:00.740)

our environment is.

Lex Fridman (1:28:02.140)

So the hardware will remain the same, but the software,

Manolis Kellis (1:28:06.500)

in a quickly advancing environment,

Lex Fridman (1:28:08.740)

the software will make a huge difference

Manolis Kellis (1:28:10.820)

in the nature of like the human experience,

Lex Fridman (1:28:14.340)

the human condition.

Manolis Kellis (1:28:15.500)

It's fascinating to think that humans will look

Lex Fridman (1:28:17.500)

very different a hundred years from now,

Manolis Kellis (1:28:19.460)

just because the environment changed,

Lex Fridman (1:28:20.740)

even though we're still the same great apes,

Manolis Kellis (1:28:22.980)

the descendant of apes.

Lex Fridman (1:28:25.420)

At the core of this is kind of a notion of ideas

Manolis Kellis (1:28:28.660)

that I don't know if you're,

Lex Fridman (1:28:31.020)

there's a lot of people, including you,

Manolis Kellis (1:28:33.140)

eloquently about this topic,

Lex Fridman (1:28:34.940)

but Richard Dawkins talks about the notion of memes

Lex Fridman (1:28:39.460)

and let's say this notion of ideas,

Lex Fridman (1:28:45.500)

multiplying, selecting in the minds of humans.

Lex Fridman (1:28:49.140)

Do you ever think about ideas from that perspective,

Lex Fridman (1:28:52.460)

ideas as organisms themselves

Lex Fridman (1:28:54.740)

that are breeding in the minds of humans?

Lex Fridman (1:28:57.580)

I love the concept of memes.

Manolis Kellis (1:28:59.540)

I love the concept of these horizontal transfer of ideas

Lex Fridman (1:29:03.660)

and sort of permeating through our layer

Manolis Kellis (1:29:08.340)

of interconnected neural networks.

Lex Fridman (1:29:11.140)

So you can think of sort of the cognitive space

Manolis Kellis (1:29:15.140)

that has now connected all of humanity,

Lex Fridman (1:29:18.020)

where we are now one giant information

Lex Fridman (1:29:22.460)

and idea sharing network,

Lex Fridman (1:29:24.820)

well beyond what was thought to be ever capable

Manolis Kellis (1:29:28.900)

when the concept of a meme was created by Richard Dawkins.

Lex Fridman (1:29:32.620)

So, but I wanna take that concept

Manolis Kellis (1:29:35.260)

just into another twist,

Lex Fridman (1:29:39.260)

which is the horizontal transfer of humans with fellowships.

Lex Fridman (1:29:47.140)

And the fact that as people apply to MIT

Lex Fridman (1:29:51.140)

from around the world,

Manolis Kellis (1:29:53.100)

there's a selection that happens,

Lex Fridman (1:29:55.660)

not just for their ideas,

Lex Fridman (1:29:58.220)

but also for the cognitive hardware

Lex Fridman (1:30:00.620)

that came up with those ideas.

Lex Fridman (1:30:02.940)

So we don't just ship ideas around anymore.

Lex Fridman (1:30:05.260)

They don't evolve in a vacuum.

Manolis Kellis (1:30:07.220)

The ideas themselves influence the distribution

Lex Fridman (1:30:11.020)

of cognitive systems, i.e. humans and brains

Manolis Kellis (1:30:14.460)

around the planet.

Lex Fridman (1:30:15.500)

Yeah, we ship them to different locations

Manolis Kellis (1:30:17.140)

based on their properties.

Lex Fridman (1:30:18.340)

That's exactly right.

Lex Fridman (1:30:19.620)

So those cognitive systems that think of physics,

Lex Fridman (1:30:24.100)

for example, might go to CERN

Lex Fridman (1:30:25.940)

and those that think of genomics

Lex Fridman (1:30:28.300)

might go to the Broad Institute.

Lex Fridman (1:30:30.460)

And those that think of computer science

Lex Fridman (1:30:32.100)

might go to, I don't know, Stanford or CMU or MIT.

Lex Fridman (1:30:35.820)

And you basically have this co evolution now

Lex Fridman (1:30:38.700)

of memes and ideas

Lex Fridman (1:30:40.980)

and the cognitive conversational systems

Lex Fridman (1:30:44.700)

that love these ideas and feed on these ideas

Lex Fridman (1:30:47.220)

and understand these ideas and appreciate these ideas

Lex Fridman (1:30:50.140)

now coming together.

Lex Fridman (1:30:52.060)

So you basically have students coming to Boston to study

Lex Fridman (1:30:56.020)

because that's the place

Manolis Kellis (1:30:56.940)

where these types of cognitive systems thrive.

Lex Fridman (1:31:01.020)

And they're selected based on their cognitive output

Lex Fridman (1:31:05.620)

and their idea output.

Lex Fridman (1:31:08.020)

But once they get into that place,

Manolis Kellis (1:31:10.620)

the boiling and interbreeding of these memes

Lex Fridman (1:31:15.020)

becomes so much more frequent.

Manolis Kellis (1:31:17.660)

That what comes out of it is so far beyond

Lex Fridman (1:31:21.580)

if ideas were evolving in a vacuum

Manolis Kellis (1:31:23.980)

of an already established hardware,

Lex Fridman (1:31:25.860)

cognitive interconnection system of the planet,

Manolis Kellis (1:31:28.540)

where now you basically have the ideas

Lex Fridman (1:31:32.820)

shaping the distribution of these systems.

Lex Fridman (1:31:35.100)

And then the genetics kick in as well.

Lex Fridman (1:31:37.700)

You basically have now these people

Manolis Kellis (1:31:40.060)

who came to be a student kind of like myself

Lex Fridman (1:31:42.020)

who now stuck around and are now professors

Manolis Kellis (1:31:45.260)

bringing up our own genetically encoded

Lex Fridman (1:31:49.900)

and genetically related cognitive systems,

Manolis Kellis (1:31:53.300)

mine are eight, six and three years old,

Lex Fridman (1:31:56.100)

who are now growing up in an environment

Manolis Kellis (1:31:58.020)

surrounded by other cognitive systems of a similar age

Lex Fridman (1:32:02.460)

with parents who love these types of thinking and ideas.

Lex Fridman (1:32:06.180)

And you basically have a whole interbreeding now

Lex Fridman (1:32:09.260)

of genetically selected transfer of cognitive systems

Manolis Kellis (1:32:14.260)

where the genes and the memes are co evolving

Lex Fridman (1:32:19.380)

the same soup of ever improving knowledge

Lex Fridman (1:32:23.300)

and societal inter fertilization,

Lex Fridman (1:32:28.300)

cross fertilization of these ideas.

Lex Fridman (1:32:29.940)

So this beautiful image.

Lex Fridman (1:32:32.780)

So this is shipping these actual meat cognitive systems

Manolis Kellis (1:32:36.420)

to physical locations.

Lex Fridman (1:32:37.580)

They tend to cluster in the biology ones,

Lex Fridman (1:32:41.660)

and the biology ones cluster in a certain building too.

Lex Fridman (1:32:45.340)

So like within that there's clusters on top of clusters,

Manolis Kellis (1:32:49.540)

top of clusters.

Lex Fridman (1:32:50.380)

What about in the online world?

Manolis Kellis (1:32:52.740)

Is that, do you also see that kind of,

Lex Fridman (1:32:55.340)

because people now form groups on the internet

Manolis Kellis (1:32:58.940)

that they stick together so they can sort of,

Lex Fridman (1:33:03.820)

these cognitive systems can collect themselves

Lex Fridman (1:33:08.660)

and breed together in different layers of spaces.

Lex Fridman (1:33:14.420)

It doesn't just have to be physical space.

Manolis Kellis (1:33:15.940)

Absolutely, absolutely.

Lex Fridman (1:33:17.180)

So basically there's the physical rearrangement,

Lex Fridman (1:33:19.740)

but there's also the conglomeration

Lex Fridman (1:33:21.860)

of the same cognitive system.

Manolis Kellis (1:33:24.340)

Doesn't need to be, i.e. human.

Lex Fridman (1:33:26.820)

Doesn't need to belong to only one community.

Lex Fridman (1:33:29.140)

So yes, you might be a member

Lex Fridman (1:33:30.340)

of the computer science department,

Lex Fridman (1:33:31.580)

but you can also hang out in the biology department.

Lex Fridman (1:33:33.820)

But you might also go online into,

Manolis Kellis (1:33:35.820)

I don't know, poetry department readings

Lex Fridman (1:33:37.940)

and so on and so forth.

Manolis Kellis (1:33:38.780)

Or you might be part of a group

Lex Fridman (1:33:40.620)

that only has 12 people in the world,

Lex Fridman (1:33:42.820)

but that are connected through their ideas

Lex Fridman (1:33:45.300)

and are now interbreeding these ideas in a whole other way.

Lex Fridman (1:33:49.340)

So this coevolution of genes and memes

Lex Fridman (1:33:53.140)

is not just physically instantiated.

Manolis Kellis (1:33:55.220)

It's also sort of rearranged in this cognitive space as well.

Lex Fridman (1:34:01.740)

And sometimes these cognitive systems hold conferences

Lex Fridman (1:34:05.100)

and they all gather around

Lex Fridman (1:34:06.820)

and there's like one of them is like talking

Lex Fridman (1:34:09.060)

and they're all like listening

Lex Fridman (1:34:10.100)

and then they discuss and then they have free lunch

Lex Fridman (1:34:12.540)

and so on.

Lex Fridman (1:34:13.380)

No, but then that's where you find students

Manolis Kellis (1:34:15.980)

where when I go to a conference,

Lex Fridman (1:34:18.260)

I go through the posters where I'm on a mission.

Manolis Kellis (1:34:20.940)

Basically my mission is to read and understand

Lex Fridman (1:34:23.580)

what every poster is about.

Lex Fridman (1:34:25.060)

And for a few of them,

Lex Fridman (1:34:25.900)

I'll dive deeply and understand everything,

Lex Fridman (1:34:27.660)

but I make it a point to just go poster after poster

Lex Fridman (1:34:29.940)

in order to read all of them.

Lex Fridman (1:34:31.820)

And I find some gems and students that I speak to

Lex Fridman (1:34:35.460)

that sometimes eventually join my lab.

Lex Fridman (1:34:37.780)

And then sort of you're sort of creating this permeation

Lex Fridman (1:34:41.820)

of the transfer of ideas, of ways of thinking

Lex Fridman (1:34:48.260)

and very often of moral values, of social structures,

Lex Fridman (1:34:52.940)

of just more imperceptible properties

Manolis Kellis (1:34:59.820)

of these cognitive systems

Lex Fridman (1:35:00.860)

that simply just cling together.

Manolis Kellis (1:35:02.660)

Basically, I have the luxury at MIT

Lex Fridman (1:35:07.140)

of not just choosing smart people,

Lex Fridman (1:35:09.140)

but choosing smart people who I get along with,

Lex Fridman (1:35:12.660)

who are generous and friendly and creative and smart

Lex Fridman (1:35:17.820)

and excited and childish in their uninhibited behaviors

Lex Fridman (1:35:25.220)

and so on and so forth.

Lex Fridman (1:35:26.060)

So you basically can choose yourself to surround,

Lex Fridman (1:35:29.860)

you can choose to surround yourself

Manolis Kellis (1:35:31.260)

with people who are not only cognitively compatible,

Lex Fridman (1:35:36.140)

but also imperceptibly

Manolis Kellis (1:35:39.780)

through the meta cognitive systems compatible.

Lex Fridman (1:35:43.580)

And again, when I say compatible, not all the same.

Manolis Kellis (1:35:46.740)

Sometimes, not sometimes, all the time.

Lex Fridman (1:35:50.580)

The teams are made out of complimentary components,

Manolis Kellis (1:35:53.540)

not just compatible, but very often complimentary.

Lex Fridman (1:35:56.220)

So in my own team, I have a diversity of students

Manolis Kellis (1:35:59.580)

who come from very different backgrounds.

Lex Fridman (1:36:01.900)

There's a whole spectrum of biology to computation,

Manolis Kellis (1:36:04.180)

of course, but within biology, there's a lot of realms.

Lex Fridman (1:36:06.660)

Within computation, there's a lot of realms.

Lex Fridman (1:36:08.820)

And what makes us click so well together

Lex Fridman (1:36:13.340)

is the fact that not only do we have a common mission,

Manolis Kellis (1:36:16.620)

a common passion and a common view of the world,

Lex Fridman (1:36:22.500)

but that we're complimentary in our skills,

Manolis Kellis (1:36:25.540)

in our angles with which we come at it and so on and so forth.

Lex Fridman (1:36:28.060)

And that's sort of what makes it click.

Manolis Kellis (1:36:29.700)

Yeah, it's fascinating that the stickiness

Lex Fridman (1:36:32.860)

of multiple cognitive systems together

Manolis Kellis (1:36:35.980)

includes both the commonality,

Lex Fridman (1:36:37.980)

so you meet because there's some common thing,

Lex Fridman (1:36:40.740)

but you stick together because you're different

Lex Fridman (1:36:45.180)

in all the useful ways.

Manolis Kellis (1:36:46.740)

Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:36:47.580)

And my wife and I, I mean, we adore each other to pieces,

Lex Fridman (1:36:51.780)

but we're also extremely different in many ways.

Lex Fridman (1:36:54.300)

And that's beautiful. Careful.

Manolis Kellis (1:36:55.900)

She's gonna be listening to this.

Lex Fridman (1:36:57.100)

But I love that about us.

Manolis Kellis (1:36:59.020)

I love the fact that I'm living out there

Lex Fridman (1:37:01.900)

in the world of ideas and I forget what day it is.

Lex Fridman (1:37:05.580)

And she's like, well, at 8 a.m.,

Lex Fridman (1:37:07.060)

the kids better be to school.

Manolis Kellis (1:37:08.260)

Right.

Lex Fridman (1:37:09.260)

And I do get yelled at, but I need it.

Manolis Kellis (1:37:15.460)

Basically, I need her as much as she needs me.

Lex Fridman (1:37:18.100)

And she loves interacting with me and talking.

Manolis Kellis (1:37:20.180)

I mean, last night, we were talking about this

Lex Fridman (1:37:23.540)

and I showed her the questions

Lex Fridman (1:37:24.580)

and we were bouncing ideas off each other.

Lex Fridman (1:37:26.540)

And it was just beautiful.

Manolis Kellis (1:37:28.140)

We basically have these, basically,

Lex Fridman (1:37:32.180)

cognitive, let it all loose kind of dates

Manolis Kellis (1:37:36.060)

where we just bring papers

Lex Fridman (1:37:38.260)

and we're bouncing ideas, et cetera.

Lex Fridman (1:37:41.020)

So we have extremely different perspectives,

Lex Fridman (1:37:44.540)

but very common goals and interests and anyway.

Lex Fridman (1:37:49.900)

What do you make of the communication mechanism

Lex Fridman (1:37:52.260)

that we humans use to share those ideas?

Manolis Kellis (1:37:54.180)

Because one essential element of all of this

Lex Fridman (1:37:57.300)

is not just that we're able to have these ideas,

Lex Fridman (1:38:01.500)

but we're also able to share them.

Lex Fridman (1:38:03.740)

We tend to, maybe you can correct me,

Lex Fridman (1:38:06.060)

but we seem to use language to share the ideas.

Lex Fridman (1:38:10.060)

Maybe we share them in some much deeper way

Manolis Kellis (1:38:12.100)

than language, I don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:38:13.220)

But what do you make of this whole mechanism

Lex Fridman (1:38:15.780)

that ghaf on the matlid is to the human condition?

Lex Fridman (1:38:18.740)

So some people will tell you

Manolis Kellis (1:38:20.100)

that your language dictates your thoughts

Lex Fridman (1:38:23.140)

and your thoughts cannot form outside language.

Manolis Kellis (1:38:26.260)

I tend to disagree.

Lex Fridman (1:38:27.860)

I see thoughts as much more abstract

Manolis Kellis (1:38:33.180)

as basically when I dream, I don't dream in words.

Lex Fridman (1:38:36.460)

I dream in shapes and forms and three dimensional space

Manolis Kellis (1:38:40.500)

with extreme detail.

Lex Fridman (1:38:42.380)

I was describing, so when I wake up

Manolis Kellis (1:38:44.300)

in the middle of the night, I actually record my dreams.

Lex Fridman (1:38:47.140)

Sometimes I write them down in a Dropbox file.

Manolis Kellis (1:38:50.380)

Other times I'll just dictate them in audio.

Lex Fridman (1:38:53.940)

And my wife was giving me a massage the other day

Manolis Kellis (1:38:57.420)

cause like my left side was frozen

Lex Fridman (1:39:00.020)

and I started playing the recording.

Lex Fridman (1:39:02.780)

And as I was listening to it, I was like,

Lex Fridman (1:39:05.460)

I don't remember any of that.

Lex Fridman (1:39:06.300)

And it was like, of course.

Lex Fridman (1:39:08.020)

And then the entire thing came back.

Lex Fridman (1:39:10.220)

But then there's no way any other person

Lex Fridman (1:39:12.420)

could have recreated that entire sort of

Manolis Kellis (1:39:15.780)

three dimensional shape and dream and concept.

Lex Fridman (1:39:20.180)

And in the same way, when I'm thinking of ideas,

Manolis Kellis (1:39:22.500)

there's so many ideas I can't put to words.

Lex Fridman (1:39:25.300)

I mean, I will describe them with a thousand words,

Lex Fridman (1:39:27.060)

but the idea itself is much more precise

Lex Fridman (1:39:29.860)

or much more sort of abstract

Manolis Kellis (1:39:31.500)

or much more something difference,

Lex Fridman (1:39:34.100)

either less abstract or more abstract.

Lex Fridman (1:39:36.380)

And it's either, basically there's just the projection

Lex Fridman (1:39:42.060)

that happens from the three dimensional ideas

Manolis Kellis (1:39:44.620)

into let's say a one dimensional language.

Lex Fridman (1:39:46.860)

And the language certainly gives you the apparatus

Manolis Kellis (1:39:49.860)

to think about concepts

Lex Fridman (1:39:51.180)

that you didn't realize existed before.

Lex Fridman (1:39:53.620)

And with my team, we often create new words.

Lex Fridman (1:39:56.380)

I'm like, well, now we're gonna call these

Manolis Kellis (1:39:58.100)

the regulatory plexus of a gene.

Lex Fridman (1:39:59.980)

And that gives us now the language

Manolis Kellis (1:40:01.660)

to sort of build on that as one concept

Lex Fridman (1:40:04.540)

that you then build upon with all kinds of other things.

Lex Fridman (1:40:07.820)

So there's this coevolution again of ideas and language,

Lex Fridman (1:40:11.860)

but they're not one to one with each other.

Manolis Kellis (1:40:15.300)

Now let's talk about language itself, words, sentences.

Lex Fridman (1:40:20.300)

This is a very distant construct

Manolis Kellis (1:40:24.100)

from where language actually begun.

Lex Fridman (1:40:26.420)

So if you look at how we communicate,

Manolis Kellis (1:40:29.780)

as I'm speaking, my eyes are shining

Lex Fridman (1:40:32.980)

and my face is changing through all kinds of emotions.

Lex Fridman (1:40:36.060)

And my entire body composition posture is reshaped.

Lex Fridman (1:40:41.300)

And my intonation, the pauses that I make,

Manolis Kellis (1:40:44.300)

the softer and the louder and the this and that

Lex Fridman (1:40:47.220)

are conveying so much more information.

Lex Fridman (1:40:50.700)

And if you look at early human language,

Lex Fridman (1:40:54.140)

and if you look at how the great apes

Manolis Kellis (1:40:57.100)

communicate with each other, there's a lot of grunting,

Lex Fridman (1:40:59.180)

there's a lot of posturing, there's a lot of emotions,

Manolis Kellis (1:41:01.260)

there's a lot of sort of shrieking, et cetera.

Lex Fridman (1:41:03.620)

They have a lot of components of our human language,

Manolis Kellis (1:41:09.180)

just not the words.

Lex Fridman (1:41:10.420)

So I think of human communication

Manolis Kellis (1:41:14.740)

as combining the ape component,

Lex Fridman (1:41:19.020)

but also of course the GPT3 component.

Lex Fridman (1:41:22.940)

So basically there's the cognitive layer

Lex Fridman (1:41:24.940)

and the reasoning layer that we share

Manolis Kellis (1:41:27.820)

with different parts of our relatives.

Lex Fridman (1:41:30.380)

There's the AI relatives,

Lex Fridman (1:41:31.980)

but there's also the grunting relatives.

Lex Fridman (1:41:34.500)

And what I love about humanity is that we have both.

Manolis Kellis (1:41:37.660)

We're not just a conversational system.

Lex Fridman (1:41:40.340)

We're a grunting, emotionally charged,

Manolis Kellis (1:41:44.060)

weirdly interconnected system

Lex Fridman (1:41:49.060)

that also has the ability to reason.

Lex Fridman (1:41:51.500)

And when we communicate with each other,

Lex Fridman (1:41:54.620)

there's so much more than just language.

Manolis Kellis (1:41:56.900)

There's so much more than just words.

Lex Fridman (1:41:59.060)

It does seem like we're able to somehow transfer

Manolis Kellis (1:42:01.660)

even more than the body language.

Lex Fridman (1:42:04.620)

It seems that in the room with us

Manolis Kellis (1:42:07.900)

is always a giant knowledge base of shared experiences,

Lex Fridman (1:42:13.380)

different perspectives on those experiences,

Lex Fridman (1:42:15.420)

but I don't know, the knowledge of who the last three,

Lex Fridman (1:42:19.100)

four presidents in the United States was,

Lex Fridman (1:42:21.140)

and just all the 9 11, the tragedies in 9 11,

Lex Fridman (1:42:24.700)

all the beautiful and terrible things

Manolis Kellis (1:42:28.020)

that happen in the world.

Lex Fridman (1:42:28.860)

They're somehow both in our minds

Lex Fridman (1:42:31.420)

and somehow enrich the ability to transfer information.

Lex Fridman (1:42:37.060)

What I love about it is I can talk to you

Manolis Kellis (1:42:39.100)

about 2001 Odyssey of Space

Lex Fridman (1:42:40.420)

and mention a very specific scene

Lex Fridman (1:42:41.940)

and that evokes all these feelings that you had

Lex Fridman (1:42:44.540)

when you first watched it.

Manolis Kellis (1:42:45.540)

We're both visualizing that and maybe in different ways.

Lex Fridman (1:42:48.140)

Exactly.

Lex Fridman (1:42:48.980)

But in that, yeah, and not only that,

Lex Fridman (1:42:52.140)

but the feeling is brought back up,

Manolis Kellis (1:42:56.100)

just like you said, with the dreams.

Lex Fridman (1:42:58.140)

We both have that feeling arise in some form

Manolis Kellis (1:43:01.140)

as you bring up the child facing his own mortality.

Lex Fridman (1:43:07.180)

It's fascinating that we're able to do that,

Lex Fridman (1:43:09.260)

but I don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:43:10.580)

Now let's talk about Neuralink for a second.

Lex Fridman (1:43:12.540)

So what's the concept of Neuralink?

Lex Fridman (1:43:14.580)

The concept of Neuralink is that I'm gonna take

Manolis Kellis (1:43:17.060)

whatever knowledge is encoded in my brain

Lex Fridman (1:43:19.700)

directly transfer it into your brain.

Lex Fridman (1:43:22.140)

So this is a beautiful, fascinating,

Lex Fridman (1:43:25.260)

and extremely sort of appealing concept,

Lex Fridman (1:43:29.180)

but I see a lot of challenges surrounding that.

Lex Fridman (1:43:32.140)

The first one is we have no idea

Lex Fridman (1:43:34.860)

how to even begin to understand

Lex Fridman (1:43:36.740)

how knowledge is encoded in a person's brain.

Manolis Kellis (1:43:40.100)

I mean, I told you about this paper that we had recently

Lex Fridman (1:43:41.860)

with Li Hui Cai and Asaf Marko

Manolis Kellis (1:43:45.380)

that basically was looking at these engrams

Lex Fridman (1:43:47.940)

that are formed with combinations of neurons

Manolis Kellis (1:43:50.580)

that cofire when a stimulus happens,

Lex Fridman (1:43:53.140)

where we can go into a mouse

Lex Fridman (1:43:54.260)

and select those neurons that fire by marking them

Lex Fridman (1:43:56.780)

and then see what happens when they first fire.

Lex Fridman (1:43:58.540)

And then select the neurons that fire again

Lex Fridman (1:44:00.740)

when the experience is repeated.

Manolis Kellis (1:44:02.700)

These are the recall neurons,

Lex Fridman (1:44:04.820)

and then there's the memory consolidation neurons.

Lex Fridman (1:44:07.580)

So we're starting to understand a little bit

Lex Fridman (1:44:09.820)

of sort of the distributed nature of knowledge encoding

Lex Fridman (1:44:14.060)

and experience encoding in the human brain

Lex Fridman (1:44:16.500)

and in the mouse brain.

Lex Fridman (1:44:17.900)

And the concept that we'll understand

Lex Fridman (1:44:21.420)

that sufficiently one day

Manolis Kellis (1:44:23.700)

to be able to take a snapshot

Lex Fridman (1:44:26.580)

of what does that scene from Dave losing his mind,

Manolis Kellis (1:44:31.580)

of Khal losing his mind and talking to Dave,

Lex Fridman (1:44:36.460)

how is that seen and coded in your mind?

Manolis Kellis (1:44:39.340)

Imagine the complexity of that.

Lex Fridman (1:44:41.340)

But now imagine, suppose that we solve this problem.

Lex Fridman (1:44:45.740)

And the next enormous challenge is how do I go

Lex Fridman (1:44:48.740)

and modify the next person's brain

Lex Fridman (1:44:50.980)

to now create the same exact neural connections?

Lex Fridman (1:44:54.260)

So that's an enormous challenge right there.

Lex Fridman (1:44:56.260)

So basically it's not just reading, it's now writing.

Lex Fridman (1:45:00.140)

And again, what if something goes wrong?

Manolis Kellis (1:45:02.100)

I don't wanna even think about that, that's number two.

Lex Fridman (1:45:05.100)

And number three, who says that the way

Manolis Kellis (1:45:08.100)

that you encode Dave, I'm losing my mind

Lex Fridman (1:45:11.460)

and I encode Dave, I'm losing my mind

Manolis Kellis (1:45:14.660)

is anywhere near each other.

Lex Fridman (1:45:17.220)

Basically, maybe the way that I'm encoding it

Manolis Kellis (1:45:19.940)

is twisted with my childhood memories of running through

Lex Fridman (1:45:24.780)

the pebbles in Greece, and yours is twisted

Manolis Kellis (1:45:28.020)

with your childhood memories growing up in Russia.

Lex Fridman (1:45:31.100)

And there's no way that I can take my encoding

Lex Fridman (1:45:34.660)

and put it into your brain,

Lex Fridman (1:45:35.780)

because it'll A, mess things up,

Lex Fridman (1:45:38.060)

and B, be incompatible with your own unique experiences.

Lex Fridman (1:45:42.940)

So that's telepathic communication from human to human.

Manolis Kellis (1:45:45.340)

It's fascinating, you're reminding us

Lex Fridman (1:45:48.500)

that there's two biological systems

Manolis Kellis (1:45:51.900)

on both ends of that communication.

Lex Fridman (1:45:54.460)

The easier, I guess, maybe half as difficult thing to do

Manolis Kellis (1:45:59.620)

in the hope with Neuralink is that we can communicate

Lex Fridman (1:46:03.020)

with an AI system, so where one side of that

Manolis Kellis (1:46:06.100)

is a little bit more controllable,

Lex Fridman (1:46:08.740)

but even just that is exceptionally difficult.

Manolis Kellis (1:46:13.340)

Let's talk about two neuronal systems talking to each other.

Lex Fridman (1:46:16.780)

Suppose that GPT4 tells GPT3, hey,

Lex Fridman (1:46:19.500)

give me all your knowledge, right?

Lex Fridman (1:46:21.820)

It's ready, I have 10 times more hardware,

Manolis Kellis (1:46:24.340)

I'm ready, just feed me.

Lex Fridman (1:46:25.980)

What's GPT3 gonna do?

Lex Fridman (1:46:27.260)

Is it gonna say, oh, here's my 10 billion parameters?

Lex Fridman (1:46:30.900)

No. No way.

Manolis Kellis (1:46:32.660)

The simplest way, and perhaps the fastest way

Lex Fridman (1:46:35.020)

for GPT3 to transfer all its knowledge

Manolis Kellis (1:46:36.500)

to its older body that has a lot more hardware

Lex Fridman (1:46:39.820)

is to regenerate every single possible human sentence

Manolis Kellis (1:46:44.900)

that it can possibly create.

Lex Fridman (1:46:46.620)

Just keep talking.

Manolis Kellis (1:46:48.100)

Keep talking and just reencode it all together.

Lex Fridman (1:46:50.780)

So maybe what language does is exactly that.

Manolis Kellis (1:46:53.380)

It's taking one generative cognitive model,

Lex Fridman (1:46:56.740)

it's running it forward to emit utterances

Manolis Kellis (1:46:59.620)

that kind of make sense in my cognitive frame,

Lex Fridman (1:47:01.780)

and it's reencoding them into yours

Manolis Kellis (1:47:04.060)

through the parsing of that same language.

Lex Fridman (1:47:07.260)

And I think the conversation might actually be

Manolis Kellis (1:47:09.700)

the most efficient way to do it,

Lex Fridman (1:47:11.140)

so not just talking, but interactive,

Lex Fridman (1:47:14.540)

so talking back and forth, asking questions, interrupting.

Lex Fridman (1:47:18.340)

So GPT4 will constantly be interrupting.

Manolis Kellis (1:47:20.860)

Annoying. Annoying, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:47:25.100)

But the beauty of that is also that

Manolis Kellis (1:47:27.740)

as we're interrupting each other,

Lex Fridman (1:47:29.820)

there's all kinds of misinterpretations that happen,

Manolis Kellis (1:47:33.460)

that basically when my students speak,

Lex Fridman (1:47:36.620)

I will often know that I'm misunderstanding

Lex Fridman (1:47:38.980)

what they're saying, and I'll be like,

Lex Fridman (1:47:41.420)

hold that thought for a second.

Manolis Kellis (1:47:43.100)

Let me tell you what I think I understood,

Lex Fridman (1:47:44.860)

which I know is different from what you said.

Manolis Kellis (1:47:46.780)

Then I'll say that, and then someone else

Lex Fridman (1:47:49.020)

in the same Zoom meeting

Manolis Kellis (1:47:50.540)

will basically say, well, here's another way

Lex Fridman (1:47:53.780)

to think about what you just said.

Lex Fridman (1:47:55.420)

And then by the third iteration,

Lex Fridman (1:47:57.300)

we're somewhere completely different,

Manolis Kellis (1:47:59.260)

that if we could actually communicate

Lex Fridman (1:48:01.980)

with full neural network parameters back and forth

Manolis Kellis (1:48:06.100)

of that knowledge and idea and coding,

Lex Fridman (1:48:09.100)

would be far inferior,

Manolis Kellis (1:48:11.860)

because the reencoding with our own,

Lex Fridman (1:48:15.380)

as we said last time, emotional baggage

Lex Fridman (1:48:17.540)

and cognitive baggage from our unique experiences

Lex Fridman (1:48:21.780)

through our shared experiences, distinct encodings,

Manolis Kellis (1:48:27.260)

in the context of all our unique experiences,

Lex Fridman (1:48:29.660)

is leading to so much more diversity of perspectives.

Lex Fridman (1:48:37.140)

And again, going back to this whole concept of these,

Lex Fridman (1:48:40.460)

entire network of all of human cognitive systems

Manolis Kellis (1:48:43.940)

connected to each other,

Lex Fridman (1:48:45.820)

and sort of how ideas and memes permeate through that,

Manolis Kellis (1:48:48.980)

that's sort of what really creates a whole new level

Lex Fridman (1:48:52.140)

of human experience through this reasoning layer

Lex Fridman (1:48:59.140)

and this computational layer

Lex Fridman (1:49:00.620)

that obviously lives on top of our cognitive layer.

Lex Fridman (1:49:04.820)

So you're one of these aforementioned cognitive systems,

Lex Fridman (1:49:09.820)

mortal, but thoughtful, and you're connected to a bunch,

Manolis Kellis (1:49:15.620)

like you said, students, your wife, your kids.

Lex Fridman (1:49:19.500)

What do you, in your brief time here on Earth,

Manolis Kellis (1:49:23.500)

this is a Meaning of Life episode,

Lex Fridman (1:49:25.740)

so what do you hope this world will remember you as?

Lex Fridman (1:49:31.300)

What do you hope your legacy will be?

Lex Fridman (1:49:33.140)

I don't think of legacy as much as maybe most people.

Manolis Kellis (1:49:40.620)

Oh, it's kind of funny.

Lex Fridman (1:49:41.460)

I'm consciously living the present.

Manolis Kellis (1:49:44.340)

Many students tell me, oh, give us some career advice.

Lex Fridman (1:49:47.460)

I'm like, I'm the wrong person.

Manolis Kellis (1:49:48.940)

I've never made a career plan.

Lex Fridman (1:49:50.700)

I still have to make one.

Manolis Kellis (1:49:51.900)

I, it's funny to be both experiencing the past,

Lex Fridman (1:49:56.900)

and the present, and the future,

Lex Fridman (1:50:01.900)

but also consciously living in the present,

Lex Fridman (1:50:04.580)

and just, there's a conscious decision we can make

Manolis Kellis (1:50:08.460)

to not worry about all that,

Lex Fridman (1:50:10.260)

which again, goes back to the I'm the lucky one kind of thing

Manolis Kellis (1:50:13.740)

of living in the present and being happy winning,

Lex Fridman (1:50:18.740)

and being happy losing,

Lex Fridman (1:50:20.300)

and there's a sort of,

Lex Fridman (1:50:23.580)

I'm happy losing, and there's a certain freedom

Manolis Kellis (1:50:27.740)

that comes with that, but again,

Lex Fridman (1:50:29.420)

a certain sort of, I don't know,

Manolis Kellis (1:50:32.700)

ephemerity of living for the present,

Lex Fridman (1:50:37.260)

but if you, if you stay back from all of that,

Manolis Kellis (1:50:39.940)

where basically my current modus operandi

Lex Fridman (1:50:44.860)

is live for the present, make every day

Manolis Kellis (1:50:49.100)

the best you can make,

Lex Fridman (1:50:50.700)

and just make the local blip of local maxima

Manolis Kellis (1:50:55.300)

of the universe, of the awesomeness of the planet,

Lex Fridman (1:50:58.740)

and the town, and the family that we live in,

Manolis Kellis (1:51:02.060)

both academic family and biological family,

Lex Fridman (1:51:07.620)

make it a little more awesome

Manolis Kellis (1:51:08.700)

by being generous to your friends,

Lex Fridman (1:51:09.900)

being generous to the people around you,

Manolis Kellis (1:51:11.300)

being kind to your enemies,

Lex Fridman (1:51:13.620)

and just showing love all around.

Manolis Kellis (1:51:17.740)

You can't be upset at people if you truly love them.

Lex Fridman (1:51:21.540)

If somebody yells at you and insults you

Manolis Kellis (1:51:23.380)

every time you say the slightest thing,

Lex Fridman (1:51:25.780)

and yet when you see them, you just see them with love,

Manolis Kellis (1:51:30.220)

it's a beautiful feeling.

Lex Fridman (1:51:31.660)

It's like, you know, I'm feeling exactly like

Manolis Kellis (1:51:34.660)

when I look at my three year old who's like screaming,

Lex Fridman (1:51:37.620)

even though I love her and I want her good,

Manolis Kellis (1:51:39.740)

she's still screaming and saying, no, no, no, no, no.

Lex Fridman (1:51:42.780)

And I'm like, I love you, genuinely love you,

Lex Fridman (1:51:47.100)

but I can sort of kind of see that your brain

Lex Fridman (1:51:49.580)

is kind of stuck in that little mode of anger.

Lex Fridman (1:51:53.860)

And there's plenty of people out there who don't like me,

Lex Fridman (1:51:58.260)

and I see them with love as a child

Manolis Kellis (1:52:01.460)

that is stuck in a cognitive state

Lex Fridman (1:52:04.540)

that they're eventually gonna snap out of,

Manolis Kellis (1:52:06.980)

or maybe not, and that's okay.

Lex Fridman (1:52:08.980)

So there's that aspect of sort of experiencing life

Manolis Kellis (1:52:12.980)

with the best intentions.

Lex Fridman (1:52:16.980)

And I love when I'm wrong.

Manolis Kellis (1:52:20.380)

I had a friend who was like one of the smartest people

Lex Fridman (1:52:22.700)

I've ever met who would basically say,

Manolis Kellis (1:52:24.700)

oh, I love it when I'm wrong

Lex Fridman (1:52:26.300)

because it makes me feel human.

Lex Fridman (1:52:27.860)

And it's so beautiful.

Lex Fridman (1:52:31.100)

I mean, she's really one of the smartest people

Manolis Kellis (1:52:32.660)

I've ever met.

Lex Fridman (1:52:33.500)

And she was like, oh, it's such a good feeling.

Lex Fridman (1:52:36.100)

And I love being wrong, but there's something

Lex Fridman (1:52:41.500)

about self improvement.

Manolis Kellis (1:52:42.540)

There's something about sort of how do I

Lex Fridman (1:52:45.260)

not make the most mistakes, but attempt the most rights

Lex Fridman (1:52:49.100)

and do the fewest wrongs,

Lex Fridman (1:52:50.820)

but with the full knowledge that this will happen.

Manolis Kellis (1:52:53.100)

That's one aspect.

Lex Fridman (1:52:55.340)

So through this life in the present,

Manolis Kellis (1:53:00.260)

what's really funny is,

Lex Fridman (1:53:02.140)

and that's something that I've experienced more and more

Manolis Kellis (1:53:04.540)

really thanks to you and through this podcast,

Lex Fridman (1:53:07.820)

is this enormous number of people who will basically comment,

Manolis Kellis (1:53:11.100)

wow, I've been following this guy for so many years now,

Lex Fridman (1:53:14.820)

or wow, this guy has inspired so many of us

Manolis Kellis (1:53:17.380)

in computation biology and so on and so forth.

Lex Fridman (1:53:19.540)

I'm like, I don't know any of that,

Lex Fridman (1:53:22.040)

but I'm only discovering this now

Lex Fridman (1:53:23.580)

through these sort of sharing our emotional states

Lex Fridman (1:53:27.940)

and our cognitive states with a wider audience,

Lex Fridman (1:53:31.580)

where suddenly I'm sort of realizing that,

Manolis Kellis (1:53:33.980)

wow, maybe I've had a legacy.

Lex Fridman (1:53:36.820)

Like basically I've trained generations of students

Manolis Kellis (1:53:39.900)

from MIT and I've put all of my courses freely online

Lex Fridman (1:53:45.220)

since 2001.

Lex Fridman (1:53:47.760)

So basically all of my video recordings of my lectures

Lex Fridman (1:53:50.140)

have been online since 2001.

Lex Fridman (1:53:52.240)

So countless generations of people from across the world

Lex Fridman (1:53:56.100)

will meet me at a conference and say,

Manolis Kellis (1:53:58.540)

like I was at this conference where somebody heard my voice

Lex Fridman (1:54:01.060)

and it's like, I know this voice,

Manolis Kellis (1:54:02.620)

I've been listening to your lectures.

Lex Fridman (1:54:04.540)

And it's just such a beautiful thing where

Manolis Kellis (1:54:07.180)

like we're sharing widely and who knows

Lex Fridman (1:54:11.400)

which students will get where

Manolis Kellis (1:54:13.900)

from whatever they catch out of these lectures,

Lex Fridman (1:54:16.300)

even if what they catch is just inspiration

Lex Fridman (1:54:18.500)

and passion and drive.

Lex Fridman (1:54:20.700)

So there's this intangible legacy quote unquote

Manolis Kellis (1:54:26.260)

that every one of us has through the people we touch.

Lex Fridman (1:54:29.720)

One of my friends from undergrad basically told me,

Manolis Kellis (1:54:31.940)

oh, my mom remembers you vividly

Lex Fridman (1:54:33.640)

from when she came to campus.

Manolis Kellis (1:54:34.480)

I'm like, I didn't even meet her.

Lex Fridman (1:54:36.080)

She's like, no, but she sort of saw you interacting

Manolis Kellis (1:54:39.380)

with people and said, wow,

Lex Fridman (1:54:40.860)

he's exuding this positive energy.

Lex Fridman (1:54:43.420)

And there's that aspect of sort of just motivating people

Lex Fridman (1:54:47.020)

with your kindness, with your passion, with your generosity

Lex Fridman (1:54:50.620)

and with your just selflessness of just give,

Lex Fridman (1:54:56.860)

it doesn't matter where it goes.

Manolis Kellis (1:54:58.980)

I've been to conferences where basically people will,

Lex Fridman (1:55:01.820)

I'll ask them a question and then they'll come back to,

Manolis Kellis (1:55:04.100)

or there was a conference where I asked somebody a question

Lex Fridman (1:55:06.380)

and they said, oh, in fact, this entire project

Manolis Kellis (1:55:08.620)

was inspired by your question three years ago

Lex Fridman (1:55:10.500)

at the same conference.

Manolis Kellis (1:55:11.860)

I'm like, wow.

Lex Fridman (1:55:13.460)

And then on top of that, there's also the ripple effect.

Lex Fridman (1:55:15.560)

So you're speaking to the direct influence of inspiration

Lex Fridman (1:55:18.500)

or education, but there's also the follow on things

Manolis Kellis (1:55:22.100)

that happen to that and there's this ripple

Lex Fridman (1:55:23.980)

that from you just this one individual first drop.

Lex Fridman (1:55:27.140)

And from every one of us, from everyone,

Lex Fridman (1:55:29.260)

that's what I love about humanity.

Manolis Kellis (1:55:30.920)

The fact that every one of us shares genes

Lex Fridman (1:55:36.660)

and genetic variants with very recent ancestors

Manolis Kellis (1:55:39.780)

with everyone else.

Lex Fridman (1:55:41.060)

So even if I die tomorrow, my genes are still shared

Manolis Kellis (1:55:45.640)

through my cousins and through my uncles

Lex Fridman (1:55:47.460)

and through my immediate family.

Lex Fridman (1:55:49.980)

And of course I'm lucky enough to have my own children,

Lex Fridman (1:55:52.740)

but even if you don't, your genes are still permeating

Manolis Kellis (1:55:55.700)

through all of the layers of your family.

Lex Fridman (1:55:57.540)

So your genes will have the legacy there, yeah.

Manolis Kellis (1:56:00.220)

Every one of us.

Lex Fridman (1:56:02.460)

Number two, our ideas are constantly intermingling

Manolis Kellis (1:56:05.020)

with each other.

Lex Fridman (1:56:05.840)

So there's no person living in the planet

Manolis Kellis (1:56:08.780)

a hundred years from now who will not be directly impacted

Lex Fridman (1:56:12.040)

by every one of the planet living here today

Manolis Kellis (1:56:14.560)

through genetic inheritance and through meme inheritance.

Lex Fridman (1:56:18.540)

That's cool to think that your ideas, Manolis Callas,

Manolis Kellis (1:56:22.060)

would touch every single person on this planet.

Lex Fridman (1:56:27.100)

It's interesting.

Manolis Kellis (1:56:27.940)

It's not just mine, Joe Smith, who's looking at this

Lex Fridman (1:56:30.300)

right now, his ideas will also touch everybody.

Lex Fridman (1:56:33.900)

So there's this interconnectedness of humanity.

Lex Fridman (1:56:37.100)

And then I'm also a professor.

Lex Fridman (1:56:39.220)

So my day job is legacy.

Lex Fridman (1:56:42.140)

My day job is training, not just the thousands of people

Manolis Kellis (1:56:46.180)

who watch my videos on the web,

Lex Fridman (1:56:47.900)

but the people who are actually in my class,

Manolis Kellis (1:56:50.300)

who basically come to MIT to learn from a bunch of us.

Lex Fridman (1:56:55.020)

The cognitive systems that were shipped to this particular

Manolis Kellis (1:56:58.420)

location in space.

Lex Fridman (1:56:59.260)

And who will then disperse back

Manolis Kellis (1:57:00.540)

into all of their home countries.

Lex Fridman (1:57:02.660)

That's what makes America the beacon of the world.

Manolis Kellis (1:57:05.200)

We don't just export goods.

Lex Fridman (1:57:09.100)

We export people.

Manolis Kellis (1:57:10.900)

Cognitive systems.

Lex Fridman (1:57:12.140)

We export people who are born here.

Lex Fridman (1:57:15.300)

And we also export training that people born elsewhere

Lex Fridman (1:57:18.980)

will come here to get and will then disseminate,

Manolis Kellis (1:57:21.940)

not just whatever knowledge they got,

Lex Fridman (1:57:23.940)

but whatever ideals they learned.

Lex Fridman (1:57:26.140)

And I think that's something that's a legacy of the US

Lex Fridman (1:57:28.700)

that you cannot stop with political isolation.

Manolis Kellis (1:57:31.260)

You cannot stop with economic isolation.

Lex Fridman (1:57:33.460)

That's something that will continue to happen

Manolis Kellis (1:57:35.700)

through all the people we've touched through our universities.

Lex Fridman (1:57:38.260)

So there's the students who took my classes,

Manolis Kellis (1:57:40.940)

who are basically now going off and teaching their classes.

Lex Fridman (1:57:44.220)

And I've trained generations of computational biologists.

Manolis Kellis (1:57:46.460)

No one in genomics who's gone through MIT

Lex Fridman (1:57:48.620)

hasn't taken my class.

Lex Fridman (1:57:50.060)

So basically there's this impact through,

Lex Fridman (1:57:53.020)

I mean, there's so many people in biotechs who are like,

Manolis Kellis (1:57:55.220)

hey, I took your class.

Lex Fridman (1:57:56.260)

That's what got me into the field like 15 years ago.

Lex Fridman (1:57:58.380)

And it's just so beautiful.

Lex Fridman (1:58:00.140)

And then there's the academic family that I have.

Lex Fridman (1:58:04.760)

So the students who are actually studying with me,

Lex Fridman (1:58:07.740)

who are my trainees.

Lex Fridman (1:58:09.280)

So this sort of mentorship of ancient Greece.

Lex Fridman (1:58:15.020)

So I basically have an academic family and we are a family.

Manolis Kellis (1:58:20.020)

There's this such strong connection,

Lex Fridman (1:58:24.200)

this bond of you're part of the Kelly's family.

Lex Fridman (1:58:27.640)

So I have a biological family at home

Lex Fridman (1:58:29.840)

and I have an academic family on campus.

Lex Fridman (1:58:32.120)

And that academic family

Lex Fridman (1:58:33.720)

has given me great grandchildren already.

Manolis Kellis (1:58:36.240)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:58:37.120)

So I've trained people who are now professors at Stanford,

Manolis Kellis (1:58:40.720)

CMU, Harvard, WashU, I mean, everywhere in the world.

Lex Fridman (1:58:46.400)

And these people have now trained people

Manolis Kellis (1:58:49.240)

who are now having their own faculty jobs.

Lex Fridman (1:58:53.060)

So there's basically people who see me

Manolis Kellis (1:58:55.160)

as their academic grandfather.

Lex Fridman (1:58:57.360)

And it's just so beautiful

Manolis Kellis (1:58:58.440)

because you don't have to wait for the 18 years

Lex Fridman (1:59:00.460)

of cognitive hardware development

Manolis Kellis (1:59:03.920)

to sort of have amazing conversation with people.

Lex Fridman (1:59:07.440)

These are fully grown humans, fully grown adult

Manolis Kellis (1:59:09.640)

who are cognitively super ready and who are shaped by,

Lex Fridman (1:59:15.680)

and I see some of these beautiful papers and I'm like,

Manolis Kellis (1:59:18.720)

I can see the touch of our lab in those papers.

Lex Fridman (1:59:21.880)

It's just so beautiful.

Manolis Kellis (1:59:22.720)

Cause you're like, I spent hours with these people

Lex Fridman (1:59:25.560)

teaching them not just how to do a paper, but how to think.

Lex Fridman (1:59:29.740)

And this whole concept of, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:59:31.960)

the first paper that we write together

Manolis Kellis (1:59:34.200)

is an experience with every one of these students.

Lex Fridman (1:59:37.480)

So, you know, I always tell them

Manolis Kellis (1:59:38.760)

to write the whole first draft

Lex Fridman (1:59:40.560)

and they know that I will rewrite every word.

Lex Fridman (1:59:43.320)

But the act of them writing it

Lex Fridman (1:59:45.840)

and what I do is these like joint editing sessions

Manolis Kellis (1:59:48.320)

where I'm like, let's coedit.

Lex Fridman (1:59:50.080)

And with this coediting, we basically have...

Manolis Kellis (1:59:53.040)

Creative destruction.

Lex Fridman (1:59:55.080)

So I share my Zoom screen

Lex Fridman (1:59:56.680)

and I'm just thinking out loud as I'm doing this.

Lex Fridman (1:59:59.600)

And they're learning from that process

Lex Fridman (20:00.000)

But like this beginning.

Lex Fridman (20:00.840)

Tears from a star, wow.

Manolis Kellis (20:01.920)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (20:03.440)

And again, tears from a star, how fragile we are.

Manolis Kellis (20:06.840)

I mean, just these rhymes are just flowing so naturally.

Lex Fridman (20:10.160)

Something, it seems that more meaning comes

Manolis Kellis (20:12.800)

when there's a rhythm that, I don't know what that is.

Lex Fridman (20:16.000)

That probably connects to exactly what you were saying.

Lex Fridman (20:18.160)

And if you pay close attention,

Lex Fridman (20:19.240)

you will notice that the more obvious words

Manolis Kellis (20:22.480)

sometimes are the second verse

Lex Fridman (20:25.120)

and the less obvious are often the first verse

Manolis Kellis (20:28.120)

because it makes the second verse flow much more naturally

Lex Fridman (20:31.680)

because otherwise it feels contrived.

Manolis Kellis (20:33.760)

Oh, you went and found this like unusual word.

Lex Fridman (20:36.480)

In Dark Moments, the whole album of Pink Floyd

Lex Fridman (20:39.800)

and the movie just marked me enormously

Lex Fridman (20:42.600)

as a teenager, just the wall.

Lex Fridman (20:45.200)

And there's one song that never actually made it

Lex Fridman (20:47.700)

into the album that's only there in the movie

Manolis Kellis (20:49.840)

about when the tigers broke free

Lex Fridman (20:51.920)

and the tigers are the tanks of the Germans.

Lex Fridman (20:55.040)

And it just describes, again, this vivid imagery.

Lex Fridman (20:58.120)

It was just before dawn, one miserable morning in Black 44

Manolis Kellis (21:02.960)

when the forward commander was told to sit tight

Lex Fridman (21:05.760)

when he asked that his men be withdrawn.

Lex Fridman (21:08.360)

And the generals gave thanks

Lex Fridman (21:10.400)

as the other ranks held back the enemy tanks for a while.

Lex Fridman (21:16.040)

And the Anzio bridgehead was held

Lex Fridman (21:19.520)

for the price of a few hundred ordinary lives.

Lex Fridman (21:24.520)

So that's a theme that keeps coming back in Pink Floyd

Lex Fridman (21:26.960)

with Us Versus Them.

Manolis Kellis (21:28.760)

Us and them, God only knows

Lex Fridman (21:32.080)

that's not what we would choose to do.

Manolis Kellis (21:36.200)

For work he cried from the rear

Lex Fridman (21:39.440)

and the front rows died from another song.

Manolis Kellis (21:43.960)

It's like this whole concept of Us Versus Them.

Lex Fridman (21:46.240)

And there's that theme of Us Versus Them again

Manolis Kellis (21:48.560)

where the child is discovering how his father died

Lex Fridman (21:52.800)

when he finds an old and a found it one day

Manolis Kellis (21:55.800)

in a drawer of old photographs hidden away.

Lex Fridman (21:58.360)

And my eyes still grow damp to remember

Manolis Kellis (22:01.400)

his majesty's sign with his own rubber stamp.

Lex Fridman (22:05.080)

So it's so ironic because it seems the way

Manolis Kellis (22:08.480)

that he's writing it that he's not crying

Lex Fridman (22:09.960)

because his father was lost.

Manolis Kellis (22:11.440)

He's crying because kind old King George

Lex Fridman (22:15.080)

took the time to actually write mother a note

Manolis Kellis (22:17.920)

about the fact that his father died.

Lex Fridman (22:19.920)

It's so ironic because it basically says

Manolis Kellis (22:23.200)

we are just ordinary men and of course we're disposable.

Lex Fridman (22:26.720)

So I don't know if you know the root of the word pioneers

Lex Fridman (22:30.760)

but you had a chess board here earlier, a pawn.

Lex Fridman (22:34.720)

In French, it's a pigeon.

Manolis Kellis (22:36.760)

They are the ones that you send to the front

Lex Fridman (22:38.160)

to get murdered, slaughtered.

Manolis Kellis (22:40.120)

This whole concept of pioneers

Lex Fridman (22:42.080)

having taken this whole disposable ordinary men

Manolis Kellis (22:45.200)

to actually be the ones that we're now treating as heroes.

Lex Fridman (22:48.680)

So anyway, there's this juxtaposition of that.

Lex Fridman (22:50.760)

And then the part that always just strikes me

Lex Fridman (22:53.480)

is the music and the tonality totally changes.

Lex Fridman (22:56.680)

And now he describes the attack.

Lex Fridman (22:59.000)

It was dark all around.

Manolis Kellis (23:00.920)

There was frost in the ground.

Lex Fridman (23:02.960)

When the tigers broke free

Lex Fridman (23:05.360)

and no one survived from the Royal Fusiliers company.

Lex Fridman (23:10.840)

They were all left behind.

Manolis Kellis (23:13.000)

Most of them dead.

Lex Fridman (23:15.360)

The rest of them dying.

Lex Fridman (23:18.640)

And that's how the high command took my daddy from me.

Lex Fridman (23:24.560)

And that song, even though it's not in the album,

Manolis Kellis (23:27.520)

explains the whole movie.

Lex Fridman (23:29.760)

Cause it's this movie of misery.

Manolis Kellis (23:31.840)

It's this movie of someone being stuck in their head

Lex Fridman (23:34.840)

and not being able to get out of it.

Manolis Kellis (23:36.800)

There's no other movie that I think has captured so well

Lex Fridman (23:39.840)

this prison that is someone's own mind.

Lex Fridman (23:44.520)

And this wall that you're stuck inside

Lex Fridman (23:47.000)

and this feeling of loneliness.

Lex Fridman (23:50.440)

And sort of, is there anybody out there?

Lex Fridman (23:54.040)

And you know, sort of, hello, hello.

Lex Fridman (23:56.440)

Is there anybody in there?

Lex Fridman (23:58.880)

Just nod if you can hear me.

Lex Fridman (24:00.920)

Is there anyone home?

Lex Fridman (24:04.280)

Come on, yo.

Manolis Kellis (24:06.560)

I hear you're feeling down.

Lex Fridman (24:08.800)

Just one minute, I hear you nodding in again.

Manolis Kellis (24:15.440)

Anyway, so.

Lex Fridman (24:16.840)

Yeah, the prison of your mind.

Lex Fridman (24:18.080)

So those are the darker moments.

Lex Fridman (24:19.560)

Exactly, these are the darker moments.

Manolis Kellis (24:22.000)

Yeah, in the darker moments, the mind does feel

Lex Fridman (24:25.840)

like you're trapped alone in a room with it.

Manolis Kellis (24:30.120)

Yeah, and there's this scene in the movie

Lex Fridman (24:32.440)

which like, where he just breaks out with his guitar

Lex Fridman (24:35.600)

and there's this prostitute in the room.

Lex Fridman (24:36.840)

She starts throwing stuff and then he like, you know

Manolis Kellis (24:39.680)

breaks the window, he throws the chair outside.

Lex Fridman (24:41.760)

And then you see him laying in the pool

Manolis Kellis (24:43.640)

with his own blood, like, you know, everywhere.

Lex Fridman (24:45.800)

And then there's these endless hours spent

Manolis Kellis (24:48.800)

fixing every little thing and lining it up.

Lex Fridman (24:51.640)

And it's this whole sort of mania versus, you know

Manolis Kellis (24:55.240)

you can spend hours building up something

Lex Fridman (24:57.320)

and just destroy it in a few seconds.

Manolis Kellis (24:59.720)

One of my turns is that song.

Lex Fridman (25:01.600)

And it's like, I feel cold as a tourniquet

Manolis Kellis (25:07.560)

right as a manor.

Lex Fridman (25:10.080)

Dry as a funeral drum.

Lex Fridman (25:13.920)

And then the music also is like, run to the bedroom.

Lex Fridman (25:17.600)

There's a suitcase on the left.

Manolis Kellis (25:19.920)

There you find my favorite acts.

Lex Fridman (25:23.280)

Don't look so frightened.

Manolis Kellis (25:24.960)

This is just a passing phase.

Lex Fridman (25:27.440)

One of my bad days.

Manolis Kellis (25:30.040)

It's just so beautiful.

Lex Fridman (25:31.120)

I need to rewatch it.

Manolis Kellis (25:32.360)

That's so, you're making me realize.

Lex Fridman (25:34.200)

But imagine watching this as a teenager.

Manolis Kellis (25:35.800)

It like ruins your mind.

Lex Fridman (25:37.760)

It's like so many, it's such harsh imagery.

Lex Fridman (25:42.200)

And then, you know, anyway, so there's the dark moment.

Lex Fridman (25:46.760)

And then again, going back to Sting

Manolis Kellis (25:48.840)

now it's the political songs, Russians.

Lex Fridman (25:51.760)

And I think that song should be a new national anthem

Manolis Kellis (25:55.800)

for the US, not for Russians, but for red versus blue.

Lex Fridman (25:58.560)

Mr. Khrushchev says we will bury you.

Manolis Kellis (26:02.360)

I don't subscribe to this point of view.

Lex Fridman (26:06.040)

It'd be such an ignorant thing to do

Manolis Kellis (26:10.240)

if the Russians love their children too.

Lex Fridman (26:14.800)

What is it doing?

Manolis Kellis (26:15.880)

It's basically saying the Russians

Lex Fridman (26:19.080)

are just as humans as we are.

Manolis Kellis (26:21.440)

There's no way that they're gonna let their children die.

Lex Fridman (26:24.920)

And then it's just so beautiful.

Lex Fridman (26:26.720)

How can I save my innocent boy

Lex Fridman (26:30.240)

from Oppenheimer's deadly toy?

Lex Fridman (26:33.520)

And now that's the new national anthem, are you reading?

Lex Fridman (26:36.760)

There is no monopoly of common sense

Manolis Kellis (26:40.120)

on either side of the political fence.

Lex Fridman (26:43.880)

We share the same biology

Manolis Kellis (26:47.240)

regardless of ideology.

Lex Fridman (26:50.680)

Believe me when I say to you,

Manolis Kellis (26:54.840)

I hope the Russians love their children too.

Lex Fridman (27:00.280)

There's no such thing as a winnable war.

Manolis Kellis (27:03.680)

It's a lie we don't believe anymore.

Lex Fridman (27:08.600)

I mean, it's beautiful, right?

Lex Fridman (27:10.600)

And for God's sake, America, wake up.

Lex Fridman (27:13.640)

These are your fellow Americans.

Manolis Kellis (27:15.680)

They're your fellow biology.

Lex Fridman (27:19.160)

There is no monopoly of common sense

Manolis Kellis (27:21.440)

on either side of the political fence.

Lex Fridman (27:23.200)

It's just so beautiful.

Manolis Kellis (27:24.320)

There's no crisper, simpler way to say

Lex Fridman (27:27.360)

Russians love their children too, the common humanity.

Lex Fridman (27:31.600)

And remember what I was telling you,

Lex Fridman (27:33.240)

I think in one of our first podcasts

Manolis Kellis (27:35.240)

about the daughter who's crying for her brother

Lex Fridman (27:39.680)

to come back for more.

Lex Fridman (27:40.960)

And then the Virgin Mary appears and says,

Lex Fridman (27:43.200)

who should I take instead?

Manolis Kellis (27:44.520)

This Turk, here's his family, here's his children.

Lex Fridman (27:47.600)

This other one, he just got married, et cetera.

Lex Fridman (27:51.080)

And that basically says, no.

Lex Fridman (27:53.280)

I mean, if you look at the Lord of the Rings,

Manolis Kellis (27:56.320)

the enemies are these monsters, they're not human.

Lex Fridman (27:59.520)

And that's what we always do.

Manolis Kellis (28:00.920)

We always say, they're not like us, they're different.

Lex Fridman (28:04.880)

They're not humans, et cetera.

Lex Fridman (28:06.280)

So there's this dehumanization that has to happen

Lex Fridman (28:08.960)

for people to go to war.

Manolis Kellis (28:11.480)

If you realize just how close we are genetically,

Lex Fridman (28:14.320)

one with the other, this whole 99.9% identical,

Manolis Kellis (28:18.720)

you can't bear weapons against someone who's like that.

Lex Fridman (28:22.160)

And the things that are the most meaningful to us

Manolis Kellis (28:24.240)

in our lives at every level is the same on all sides,

Lex Fridman (28:28.680)

on both sides.

Manolis Kellis (28:29.520)

Exactly.

Lex Fridman (28:30.360)

So it's not just that we're genetically the same.

Manolis Kellis (28:32.400)

Yeah, we're ideologically the same.

Lex Fridman (28:34.440)

We love our children, we love our country.

Manolis Kellis (28:36.400)

We will fight for our family.

Lex Fridman (28:40.600)

So, and the last one I mentioned last time we spoke,

Manolis Kellis (28:43.920)

which is Joni Mitchell's Both Sides Now.

Lex Fridman (28:47.320)

So she has three rounds, one on clouds, one on love,

Lex Fridman (28:51.720)

and one on life.

Lex Fridman (28:53.360)

And on clouds she says,

Manolis Kellis (28:55.480)

Rows and flows of angel hair

Lex Fridman (28:58.840)

And ice cream castles in the air

Lex Fridman (29:02.120)

And feather canyons everywhere

Lex Fridman (29:04.600)

I've looked at clouds that way

Lex Fridman (29:07.160)

But now they only block the sun

Lex Fridman (29:10.640)

They rain and snow on everyone

Lex Fridman (29:14.080)

So many things I would have done

Lex Fridman (29:17.160)

But clouds got in my way

Lex Fridman (29:19.880)

And then I've looked at clouds from both sides now

Lex Fridman (29:23.280)

From up and down

Lex Fridman (29:25.560)

And still somehow it's

Lex Fridman (29:28.080)

Clouds illusions I recall

Manolis Kellis (29:31.120)

I really don't know clouds at all

Lex Fridman (29:36.240)

And then she goes on about love,

Lex Fridman (29:37.640)

how it's super, super happy,

Lex Fridman (29:39.200)

or it's about misery and loss and about life,

Lex Fridman (29:42.280)

how it's about winning and losing and so on and so forth.

Lex Fridman (29:45.400)

But now old friends are acting strange

Manolis Kellis (29:49.200)

They shake their heads, they say I've changed

Lex Fridman (29:53.160)

Well, something's lost and something's gained

Manolis Kellis (29:56.880)

In living every day

Lex Fridman (29:59.480)

So again, that's growing up and realizing that,

Manolis Kellis (2:00:01.200)

as opposed to like come back two days later

Lex Fridman (2:00:03.180)

and they see a bunch of red on a page.

Manolis Kellis (2:00:05.080)

I'm sort of, well, that's not how you write this.

Lex Fridman (2:00:08.120)

That's not how you think about this.

Lex Fridman (2:00:09.480)

That's not, you know, what's the point?

Lex Fridman (2:00:10.840)

Like this morning was having,

Manolis Kellis (2:00:12.600)

yes, this morning between six and 8 a.m.

Lex Fridman (2:00:14.600)

I had a two hour meeting

Manolis Kellis (2:00:15.800)

going through one of these papers

Lex Fridman (2:00:18.280)

and then saying, what's the point here?

Lex Fridman (2:00:20.800)

Why do you even show that?

Lex Fridman (2:00:22.200)

It's just a bunch of points on a graph.

Manolis Kellis (2:00:24.040)

No, what you have to do is extract the meaning,

Lex Fridman (2:00:26.640)

do the homework for them.

Lex Fridman (2:00:28.240)

And there's this nurturing, this mentorship

Lex Fridman (2:00:32.440)

that sort of creates now a legacy,

Manolis Kellis (2:00:34.640)

which is infinite because they've now gone off on the,

Lex Fridman (2:00:39.400)

you know, and all of that is just humanity.

Manolis Kellis (2:00:42.120)

Then of course there's the papers I write

Lex Fridman (2:00:44.200)

because yes, my day job is training students,

Lex Fridman (2:00:48.240)

but it's a research university.

Lex Fridman (2:00:50.280)

The way that they learn is through the mens and manus,

Manolis Kellis (2:00:54.400)

mind and hand.

Lex Fridman (2:00:56.000)

It's the practical training of actually doing research.

Lex Fridman (2:00:59.360)

And that research is a beneficial side effect

Lex Fridman (2:01:03.860)

of having these awesome papers

Manolis Kellis (2:01:06.640)

that will now tell other people how to think.

Lex Fridman (2:01:10.900)

There's this paper we just posted recently on MedArchive

Lex Fridman (2:01:13.240)

and one of the most generous and eloquent comments about it

Lex Fridman (2:01:16.200)

was like, wow, this is a masterclass in scientific writing,

Manolis Kellis (2:01:21.600)

in analysis, in biological interpretation, and so forth.

Lex Fridman (2:01:24.920)

It's just so fulfilling from a person I've never met

Manolis Kellis (2:01:27.500)

or heard about.

Lex Fridman (2:01:28.340)

Can you say the title of the paper, Brian Chen?

Manolis Kellis (2:01:30.720)

I don't remember the title,

Lex Fridman (2:01:31.860)

but it's single cell dissection of schizophrenia reveals.

Lex Fridman (2:01:38.240)

So the two points that we found

Lex Fridman (2:01:39.920)

was this whole transcriptional resilience.

Manolis Kellis (2:01:42.780)

Like there's some individuals who are schizophrenic,

Lex Fridman (2:01:46.600)

but they have an additional cell type

Manolis Kellis (2:01:50.040)

or an additional cell state, which we believe is protective.

Lex Fridman (2:01:53.560)

And that cell state when they have it

Manolis Kellis (2:01:55.680)

will cause other cells to have normal gene expression patterns.

Lex Fridman (2:01:58.920)

It's beautiful.

Lex Fridman (2:02:00.440)

And then that cell is connected

Lex Fridman (2:02:03.980)

with some of the PV interneurons

Manolis Kellis (2:02:06.120)

that are basically sending these inhibitory brainwaves

Lex Fridman (2:02:09.520)

through the brain.

Lex Fridman (2:02:10.860)

And basically there's another component of,

Lex Fridman (2:02:14.940)

there's a set of master regulators that we discovered

Manolis Kellis (2:02:18.460)

who are controlling many of the genes

Lex Fridman (2:02:20.760)

that are differentially expressed.

Lex Fridman (2:02:22.600)

And these master regulators are themselves

Lex Fridman (2:02:24.500)

genetic targets of schizophrenia.

Lex Fridman (2:02:27.120)

And they are themselves involved

Lex Fridman (2:02:28.700)

in both synaptic connectivity

Lex Fridman (2:02:31.840)

and also in early brain development.

Lex Fridman (2:02:34.740)

So there's this sort of interconnectedness

Manolis Kellis (2:02:36.880)

between synaptic development axis

Lex Fridman (2:02:40.160)

and also this transcriptional resilience.

Manolis Kellis (2:02:41.640)

So, I mean, we basically made up a title

Lex Fridman (2:02:43.120)

that combines all these concepts.

Manolis Kellis (2:02:44.860)

You have all these concepts,

Lex Fridman (2:02:45.760)

all these people working together,

Lex Fridman (2:02:46.920)

and ultimately these minds condense it down

Lex Fridman (2:02:49.640)

into a beautifully written little document

Manolis Kellis (2:02:51.800)

that lives on forever. Exactly.

Lex Fridman (2:02:52.640)

And that document now has its own life.

Manolis Kellis (2:02:55.040)

Our work has 120,000 citations.

Lex Fridman (2:02:59.940)

I mean, that's not just people who read it.

Manolis Kellis (2:03:02.100)

These are people who used it

Lex Fridman (2:03:03.740)

to write something based on it.

Manolis Kellis (2:03:05.760)

I mean, that to me is just so fulfilling

Lex Fridman (2:03:10.640)

to basically say, wow, I've touched people.

Lex Fridman (2:03:12.960)

So I don't think of my legacy as I live every day.

Lex Fridman (2:03:17.780)

I just think of the beauty of the present

Lex Fridman (2:03:20.300)

and the power of interconnectedness.

Lex Fridman (2:03:22.440)

And just, I feel like a kid in a candy shop

Manolis Kellis (2:03:25.020)

where I'm just like constantly,

Lex Fridman (2:03:28.040)

where do I, what package do I open first?

Manolis Kellis (2:03:31.620)

And, you know. You're the lucky one.

Lex Fridman (2:03:33.980)

A jack of all trades, a master of none.

Manolis Kellis (2:03:37.880)

I think for a Meaning of Life episode,

Lex Fridman (2:03:41.320)

we would be amiss if we did not have at least a poem or two.

Lex Fridman (2:03:45.400)

Do you mind if we end in a couple of poems?

Lex Fridman (2:03:49.360)

Maybe a happy, maybe a sad one.

Manolis Kellis (2:03:51.720)

I would love that.

Lex Fridman (2:03:52.680)

So thank you for the luxury.

Manolis Kellis (2:03:55.360)

The first one is kind of,

Lex Fridman (2:03:59.400)

I remember when you were talking with Eric Weinstein

Manolis Kellis (2:04:03.720)

about this comment of Leonard Cohen that says,

Lex Fridman (2:04:09.460)

but you don't really care for music, do you?

Manolis Kellis (2:04:11.880)

In Hallelujah.

Lex Fridman (2:04:12.760)

That's basically kind of like mocking its reader.

Lex Fridman (2:04:16.260)

So one of my poems is a little like that.

Lex Fridman (2:04:18.520)

So I had just broken up with my girlfriend

Lex Fridman (2:04:23.720)

and there's this other friend who was coming to visit me.

Lex Fridman (2:04:26.920)

And she said, I will not come unless you write me a poem.

Lex Fridman (2:04:30.420)

And I was like, writing a poem on demand.

Lex Fridman (2:04:37.480)

So this poem is called Write Me a Poem.

Manolis Kellis (2:04:40.880)

It goes, write me a poem, she said with a smile.

Lex Fridman (2:04:44.280)

Make sure it's pretty, romantic and rhymes.

Manolis Kellis (2:04:47.120)

Make sure it's worthy of that bold flame,

Lex Fridman (2:04:49.480)

that love uniting us beyond a mere game.

Lex Fridman (2:04:52.560)

And she took off without more words,

Lex Fridman (2:04:54.840)

rushed for the bus and traveled the world.

Manolis Kellis (2:04:57.840)

A poem, I thought, this is sublime.

Lex Fridman (2:05:00.640)

What better way for passing the time?

Lex Fridman (2:05:03.120)

What better way to count up the hours

Lex Fridman (2:05:05.380)

before she comes back to my lonely tower?

Manolis Kellis (2:05:08.440)

Waiting for joy to fill up my heart,

Lex Fridman (2:05:10.400)

let's write a poem for when we're apart.

Lex Fridman (2:05:13.280)

How does a poem start, I inquired.

Lex Fridman (2:05:16.040)

Give me a topic, cook up a style.

Manolis Kellis (2:05:18.400)

Throw in some cute words, oh, here and there.

Lex Fridman (2:05:20.840)

Throw in some passion, love and despair.

Manolis Kellis (2:05:23.760)

Love, three eggs, one pound of flour,

Lex Fridman (2:05:26.760)

three cups of water and bake for an hour.

Manolis Kellis (2:05:29.760)

Love is no recipe as I understand.

Lex Fridman (2:05:32.300)

You can't just cook up a poem on demand.

Lex Fridman (2:05:34.560)

And as I was twisting all this in my mind,

Lex Fridman (2:05:37.080)

I looked at the page, by golly, it rhymed.

Manolis Kellis (2:05:40.920)

Three roses, white chocolate, vanilla powder,

Lex Fridman (2:05:43.960)

some beautiful rhymes and maybe a flower.

Manolis Kellis (2:05:46.640)

No, be romantic, the young girl insisted.

Lex Fridman (2:05:49.360)

Do this, do that, don't be so silly.

Manolis Kellis (2:05:51.600)

You must believe it straight from your heart.

Lex Fridman (2:05:53.400)

If you don't feel it, we're better apart.

Lex Fridman (2:05:56.800)

Oh, my sweet thing, what can I say?

Lex Fridman (2:05:59.520)

You bring me the sun all night and all day.

Manolis Kellis (2:06:02.960)

You're the stars and the moon and the birds way up high.

Lex Fridman (2:06:06.060)

You're my evening sweet song, my morning blue sky.

Manolis Kellis (2:06:09.440)

You are my muse, your spell has me caught.

Lex Fridman (2:06:12.480)

You bring me my voice and scatter my thoughts.

Manolis Kellis (2:06:15.640)

To put that loving writing in vain, I can try.

Lex Fridman (2:06:19.160)

But when I'm with you, my wings want to fly.

Lex Fridman (2:06:22.400)

So I put down the pen and drop my defenses.

Lex Fridman (2:06:25.640)

Give myself to you and fill up my senses.

Manolis Kellis (2:06:31.280)

The baffled king composing, that was beautiful.

Lex Fridman (2:06:35.040)

What I love about it is that I did not

Manolis Kellis (2:06:38.160)

bring up a dictionary of rhymes.

Lex Fridman (2:06:39.760)

I did not sort of work hard.

Lex Fridman (2:06:42.200)

So basically when I write poems, I just type.

Lex Fridman (2:06:45.560)

I never go back, I just.

Lex Fridman (2:06:48.320)

So when my brain gets into that mode,

Lex Fridman (2:06:50.880)

it actually happens like I wrote it.

Manolis Kellis (2:06:52.800)

Oh, wow, so the rhymes just kind of.

Lex Fridman (2:06:54.320)

The rhymes just kind of come.

Manolis Kellis (2:06:55.160)

It's an emergent phenomenon.

Lex Fridman (2:06:56.000)

It's an emergent phenomenon.

Manolis Kellis (2:06:57.080)

I just get into that mode and then it comes up.

Lex Fridman (2:07:00.960)

That's a beautiful one.

Lex Fridman (2:07:02.040)

And it's basically, you know, as you got it,

Lex Fridman (2:07:06.760)

it's basically saying it's no recipe

Lex Fridman (2:07:08.120)

and then I'm throwing in the recipes

Lex Fridman (2:07:09.880)

and as I'm writing it, I'm like, you know.

Lex Fridman (2:07:11.600)

So it's very introspective in this whole concept.

Lex Fridman (2:07:16.480)

So anyway, there's another one many years earlier

Manolis Kellis (2:07:19.560)

that is, you know, darker.

Lex Fridman (2:07:23.600)

It's basically this whole concept of let's be friends.

Manolis Kellis (2:07:26.760)

I was like, ugh, you know.

Lex Fridman (2:07:29.760)

No, let's be friends, just like, you know.

Lex Fridman (2:07:32.480)

So the last words are shout out,

Lex Fridman (2:07:34.080)

I love you or send me to hell.

Lex Fridman (2:07:36.240)

So the title is Burn Me Tonight.

Lex Fridman (2:07:41.520)

Lie to me, baby.

Manolis Kellis (2:07:43.200)

Lie to me now.

Lex Fridman (2:07:44.680)

Tell me you love me.

Manolis Kellis (2:07:45.920)

Break me a vow.

Lex Fridman (2:07:47.080)

Give me a sweet word, a promise, a kiss.

Manolis Kellis (2:07:49.920)

Give me the world, a sweet taste to miss.

Lex Fridman (2:07:52.760)

Don't let me lay here, inert, ugly, cold,

Manolis Kellis (2:07:56.120)

with nothing sweet felt and nothing harsh told.

Lex Fridman (2:07:59.120)

Give me some hope, false, foolish, yet kind.

Manolis Kellis (2:08:02.360)

Make me regret, I'll leave you behind.

Lex Fridman (2:08:05.120)

Don't pity my soul or torture it right.

Manolis Kellis (2:08:08.240)

Treat it with hatred.

Lex Fridman (2:08:09.560)

Start up a fight.

Manolis Kellis (2:08:11.040)

For it's from mildness that my soul dies

Lex Fridman (2:08:14.040)

when you cover your passion in a bland friend's disguise.

Manolis Kellis (2:08:18.600)

Kiss me now, baby.

Lex Fridman (2:08:19.560)

Show me your passion.

Manolis Kellis (2:08:21.080)

Turn off the lights and rip off your fashion.

Lex Fridman (2:08:23.640)

Give me my life's joy this one night.

Manolis Kellis (2:08:26.720)

Burn all my matches for one blazing light.

Lex Fridman (2:08:30.120)

Don't think of tomorrow and let today fade.

Manolis Kellis (2:08:32.480)

Don't try and protect me from love's cutting blade.

Lex Fridman (2:08:35.560)

Your razor will always rip off my veins.

Manolis Kellis (2:08:38.480)

Don't spare me the passion to spare me the pains.

Lex Fridman (2:08:42.080)

Kiss me now, honey, or spit in my face.

Manolis Kellis (2:08:44.600)

Throw me an insult I'll gladly embrace.

Lex Fridman (2:08:47.680)

Tell me now clearly that you never cared.

Manolis Kellis (2:08:49.960)

Say it now loudly like you never dared.

Lex Fridman (2:08:52.800)

I'm ready to hear it.

Manolis Kellis (2:08:54.080)

I'm ready to die.

Lex Fridman (2:08:55.480)

I'm ready to burn and start a new life.

Manolis Kellis (2:08:58.520)

I'm ready to face the rough burning truth

Lex Fridman (2:09:01.400)

rather than waste the rest of my youth.

Lex Fridman (2:09:04.360)

So tell me, my lover, should I stay or go?

Lex Fridman (2:09:07.240)

The answer to love is one, yes or no.

Manolis Kellis (2:09:09.800)

There's no I like you, no let's be friends,

Lex Fridman (2:09:12.480)

shout out I love you, or send me to hell.

Manolis Kellis (2:09:17.160)

I don't think there's a better way to end

Lex Fridman (2:09:21.600)

a discussion of the meaning of life.

Manolis Kellis (2:09:23.320)

Whatever the heck the meaning is,

Lex Fridman (2:09:25.720)

go all in as that poem says.

Manolis Kellis (2:09:28.720)

Manolis, thank you so much for talking today.

Lex Fridman (2:09:30.480)

Thanks, I look forward to next time.

Manolis Kellis (2:09:32.800)

Thanks for listening to this conversation

Lex Fridman (2:09:34.520)

with Manolis Kellis, and thank you to our sponsors.

Manolis Kellis (2:09:38.000)

Grammarly, which is a service for checking spelling,

Lex Fridman (2:09:40.760)

grammar, sentence structure, and readability,

Manolis Kellis (2:09:43.720)

Athletic Greens, the all in one drink

Lex Fridman (2:09:46.280)

that I start every day with

Manolis Kellis (2:09:47.840)

to cover all my nutritional bases,

Lex Fridman (2:09:50.240)

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Manolis Kellis (2:09:54.120)

Please check out these sponsors in the description

Lex Fridman (2:09:56.360)

to get a discount and to support this podcast.

Manolis Kellis (2:09:59.400)

If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube,

Lex Fridman (2:10:01.880)

review it with five stars on Apple Podcast,

Manolis Kellis (2:10:04.040)

follow on Spotify, support on Patreon,

Lex Fridman (2:10:06.520)

or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman.

Lex Fridman (2:10:09.640)

And now, let me leave you with some words

Lex Fridman (2:10:11.480)

from Douglas Adams in his book,

Manolis Kellis (2:10:13.440)

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

Lex Fridman (2:10:16.160)

On the planet Earth, man had always assumed

Manolis Kellis (2:10:19.440)

that he was more intelligent than dolphins

Lex Fridman (2:10:22.160)

because he had achieved so much.

Manolis Kellis (2:10:24.480)

The wheel, New York, wars, and so on,

Lex Fridman (2:10:28.720)

whilst all the dolphins had ever done

Manolis Kellis (2:10:31.240)

was muck about in the water having a good time.

Lex Fridman (2:10:34.920)

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed

Manolis Kellis (2:10:38.600)

that they were far more intelligent than man

Lex Fridman (2:10:41.480)

for precisely the same reasons.

Manolis Kellis (2:10:43.940)

Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

Lex Fridman (30:02.360)

well, the view that you had as a kid

Manolis Kellis (30:04.880)

is not necessarily that you have as an adult.

Lex Fridman (30:07.160)

Remember my poem from when I was 16 years old

Manolis Kellis (30:09.880)

of this whole, you know,

Lex Fridman (30:11.920)

children dance now all in row and then in the end,

Manolis Kellis (30:14.720)

even though the snow seems bright,

Lex Fridman (30:16.200)

without you have lost their light,

Manolis Kellis (30:17.720)

sun that sang and moon that smiled.

Lex Fridman (30:19.600)

So this whole concept of, if you have love

Lex Fridman (30:22.960)

and if you have passion,

Lex Fridman (30:24.520)

you see the exact same thing from a different way.

Manolis Kellis (30:26.680)

You can go out running in the rain

Lex Fridman (30:28.480)

or you could just stay in and say,

Manolis Kellis (30:29.760)

ah, sucks, I won't be able to go outside now.

Lex Fridman (30:33.480)

Those sides.

Manolis Kellis (30:34.320)

Anyway, and the last one is,

Lex Fridman (30:36.160)

last, last one I promise, Leonard Cohen.

Manolis Kellis (30:38.360)

This is amazing by the way.

Lex Fridman (30:39.600)

I'm so glad we stumbled on how much joy you have

Manolis Kellis (30:44.600)

in so many avenues of life and music is just one of them.

Lex Fridman (30:49.520)

That's amazing.

Lex Fridman (30:50.360)

But yes, Leonard Cohen.

Lex Fridman (30:52.160)

Going back to Leonard Cohen,

Manolis Kellis (30:53.120)

since that's where you started.

Lex Fridman (30:54.040)

So Leonard Cohen's Dance Me to the End of Love.

Manolis Kellis (30:56.360)

That was our opening song in our wedding with my wife.

Lex Fridman (30:59.440)

Oh no, that's good.

Manolis Kellis (31:00.280)

As we came out to greet the guests,

Lex Fridman (31:01.720)

it was Dance Me to the End of Love.

Lex Fridman (31:03.360)

And then another one, which is just so passionate always

Lex Fridman (31:06.160)

and we always keep referring back to it is I'm Your Man.

Lex Fridman (31:09.840)

And it goes on and on about sort of,

Lex Fridman (31:12.080)

I can be every type of lover for you.

Lex Fridman (31:14.480)

And what's really beautiful in marriage

Lex Fridman (31:16.480)

is that we live that with my wife every day.

Manolis Kellis (31:20.000)

You can have the passion, you can have the anger,

Lex Fridman (31:23.040)

you can have the love, you can have the tenderness.

Manolis Kellis (31:25.760)

There's just so many gems in that song.

Lex Fridman (31:28.160)

If you want a partner, take my hand.

Manolis Kellis (31:31.520)

Or if you want to strike me down in anger,

Lex Fridman (31:35.600)

here I stand, I'm your man.

Manolis Kellis (31:39.760)

Then if you want a boxer, I will step into the ring for you.

Lex Fridman (31:43.680)

If you want a driver, climb inside.

Manolis Kellis (31:46.400)

Or if you want to take me for a ride, you know you can.

Lex Fridman (31:50.480)

So this whole concept of you want to drive, I'll follow.

Manolis Kellis (31:53.840)

You want me to drive, I'll drive.

Lex Fridman (31:56.640)

And the difference I would say between like that

Lex Fridman (31:58.640)

and Nemaki Tapa is this song, he's got an attitude.

Lex Fridman (32:01.760)

He's like, he's proud of his ability

Manolis Kellis (32:06.080)

to basically be any kind of man for as long as opposed

Lex Fridman (32:09.120)

to the Jacques Brel like desperation of what do I have to be

Manolis Kellis (32:14.800)

for you to love me, that kind of desperation.

Lex Fridman (32:17.520)

But notice there's a parallel here.

Manolis Kellis (32:20.160)

There's a verse that is perhaps not paid attention

Lex Fridman (32:22.720)

to as much which says, ah, but a man never got a woman back,

Manolis Kellis (32:29.120)

not by begging on his knees.

Lex Fridman (32:32.440)

So it seems that the I'm your man

Manolis Kellis (32:34.560)

is actually an apology song in the same way

Lex Fridman (32:37.760)

that Nemaki Tapa is an apology song.

Manolis Kellis (32:40.480)

Nemaki Tapa basically says I've screwed up.

Lex Fridman (32:44.800)

I'm sorry, baby.

Lex Fridman (32:45.680)

And in the same way that the Careless Whisper

Lex Fridman (32:48.000)

is I'm screwed up.

Manolis Kellis (32:48.880)

Yes, that's right.

Lex Fridman (32:50.240)

I'm never gonna dance again.

Manolis Kellis (32:52.560)

Guilty feet have got no rhythm.

Lex Fridman (32:57.440)

So this is an apology song, not by begging on his knees

Manolis Kellis (32:59.840)

or I'd crawl to you, baby, and I'd fall at your feet

Lex Fridman (33:03.360)

and I'd howl at your beauty like a dog in heat

Lex Fridman (33:07.280)

and I'd claw at your heart and I'd tear at your sheet.

Lex Fridman (33:11.040)

I'd say please.

Lex Fridman (33:13.840)

And then the last one is so beautiful.

Lex Fridman (33:18.480)

If you want a father for your child

Manolis Kellis (33:22.080)

or only want to walk with me a while across the sand,

Lex Fridman (33:28.400)

I'm your man.

Manolis Kellis (33:30.480)

That's the last verses which basically says

Lex Fridman (33:33.200)

you want me for a day?

Manolis Kellis (33:35.680)

I'll be there.

Lex Fridman (33:36.720)

Do you want me to just walk?

Manolis Kellis (33:37.760)

I'll be there.

Lex Fridman (33:38.240)

You want me for life?

Lex Fridman (33:39.840)

Do you want a father for your child?

Lex Fridman (33:41.200)

I'll be there too.

Manolis Kellis (33:42.240)

It's just so beautiful.

Lex Fridman (33:43.600)

Oh, sorry.

Manolis Kellis (33:44.560)

Remember how I told you I was gonna finish

Lex Fridman (33:45.680)

with a lighthearted song?

Manolis Kellis (33:46.800)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (33:48.000)

Last one.

Lex Fridman (33:48.880)

You ready?

Lex Fridman (33:49.840)

So Alison Krauss and Union Station,

Manolis Kellis (33:53.200)

country song, believe it or not, the lucky one.

Lex Fridman (33:57.280)

So I've never identified as much

Manolis Kellis (34:01.120)

with the lyrics of a song as this one.

Lex Fridman (34:05.840)

And it's hilarious.

Manolis Kellis (34:06.720)

My friend, Serafim Batoglou,

Lex Fridman (34:09.040)

is the guy who got me to genomics in the first place.

Manolis Kellis (34:11.600)

I owe enormously to him.

Lex Fridman (34:13.520)

And he's another Greek.

Manolis Kellis (34:14.640)

We actually met dancing, believe it or not.

Lex Fridman (34:16.080)

So we used to perform Greek dances.

Manolis Kellis (34:18.480)

I was the president of the International Students Association.

Lex Fridman (34:20.400)

So we put on these big performances

Manolis Kellis (34:22.160)

for 500 people at MIT.

Lex Fridman (34:24.080)

And there's a picture on the MIT Tech

Manolis Kellis (34:26.320)

where Serafim, who's like a bodybuilder,

Lex Fridman (34:29.280)

was holding me on his shoulder.

Lex Fridman (34:30.560)

And I was like doing maneuvers in the air, basically.

Lex Fridman (34:34.160)

So anyway, this guy, Serafim,

Manolis Kellis (34:35.760)

we were driving back from a conference.

Lex Fridman (34:40.160)

And there's this Russian girl

Manolis Kellis (34:41.680)

who was describing how every member of her family

Lex Fridman (34:44.000)

had been either killed by the communists

Manolis Kellis (34:46.000)

or killed by the Germans or killed by the,

Lex Fridman (34:48.400)

like, she had just like, you know, misery,

Manolis Kellis (34:51.280)

like death and, you know, sickness and everything.

Lex Fridman (34:54.880)

Everyone was decimated in her family.

Manolis Kellis (34:56.240)

She was the last standing member.

Lex Fridman (34:57.840)

And we stopped at a, Serafim was driving

Lex Fridman (35:00.400)

and we stopped at a rest area.

Lex Fridman (35:02.560)

And he takes me aside and he's like,

Manolis Kellis (35:04.320)

Manolis, we're gonna crash.

Lex Fridman (35:07.920)

Get her out of my car.

Lex Fridman (35:10.000)

And then he basically says,

Lex Fridman (35:11.120)

but I'm only reassured because you're here with me.

Lex Fridman (35:14.880)

And I'm like, what do you mean?

Lex Fridman (35:15.680)

He's like, you know, he's like, from your smile,

Manolis Kellis (35:18.720)

I know you're the luckiest man on the planet.

Lex Fridman (35:22.320)

So there's this really funny thing

Manolis Kellis (35:24.080)

where I just feel freaking lucky all the time.

Lex Fridman (35:28.480)

And it's a question of attitude.

Manolis Kellis (35:30.400)

Of course, I'm not any luckier than any other person,

Lex Fridman (35:32.240)

but every time something horrible happens to me,

Manolis Kellis (35:34.880)

I'm like, and in fact, even in that song,

Lex Fridman (35:36.960)

the song about sort of, you know,

Manolis Kellis (35:38.880)

walking on the beach and this, you know,

Lex Fridman (35:40.720)

sort of taking our life the wrong way

Lex Fridman (35:43.040)

and then, you know, having to turn around.

Lex Fridman (35:45.200)

At some point he's like, you know,

Manolis Kellis (35:47.200)

in the fresh sand, we wrote her name.

Lex Fridman (35:53.200)

So how nicely that the wind blew and the writing was erased.

Lex Fridman (35:58.720)

So again, it's this whole sort of,

Lex Fridman (36:00.320)

not just saying, oh, bummer, but, oh, great.

Manolis Kellis (36:05.200)

I just lost this.

Lex Fridman (36:06.400)

This must mean something, right?

Manolis Kellis (36:09.760)

This horrible thing happened,

Lex Fridman (36:11.120)

it must open the door to a beautiful chapter.

Manolis Kellis (36:14.640)

So, so Allison Krauss is talking about the lucky one.

Lex Fridman (36:17.680)

So I was like, oh my God, she wrote a song for me.

Lex Fridman (36:21.200)

And she goes, you're the lucky one, I know that now,

Lex Fridman (36:24.640)

as free as the wind blowing down the road,

Manolis Kellis (36:27.280)

loved by many, hated by none, I'd say,

Lex Fridman (36:30.640)

you were lucky because you know what you've done,

Manolis Kellis (36:32.480)

not the care in the world, not the worry inside.

Lex Fridman (36:35.920)

Everything's going to be all right

Manolis Kellis (36:37.520)

because you're the lucky one.

Lex Fridman (36:39.520)

And then she goes, you're the lucky one,

Manolis Kellis (36:42.240)

always having fun, a jack of all trades,

Lex Fridman (36:44.560)

a master of none.

Manolis Kellis (36:45.760)

You look at the world with the smiling eyes

Lex Fridman (36:48.000)

and laugh at the devil as his train rolls by.

Manolis Kellis (36:50.720)

I'll give you a song and a one night stand.

Lex Fridman (36:53.520)

You'll be looking at a happy man

Manolis Kellis (36:55.440)

because you're the lucky one.

Lex Fridman (36:57.120)

It basically says, if you just don't worry too much,

Manolis Kellis (37:01.360)

if you don't try to be a one trick pony,

Lex Fridman (37:06.640)

if you just embrace the fact

Manolis Kellis (37:08.960)

that you might suck at a bunch of things,

Lex Fridman (37:10.640)

but you're just gonna try a lot of things.

Lex Fridman (37:12.560)

And then there's another verse that says,

Lex Fridman (37:15.040)

well, you're blessed I guess,

Lex Fridman (37:17.120)

but never knowing which road you're choosing,

Lex Fridman (37:20.000)

to you the next best thing

Manolis Kellis (37:22.160)

to playing and winning is playing and losing.

Lex Fridman (37:24.480)

It's just so beautiful

Manolis Kellis (37:26.480)

because he basically says,

Lex Fridman (37:28.240)

if you try your best,

Lex Fridman (37:33.280)

but it's still playing,

Lex Fridman (37:35.520)

if you lose, it's okay.

Manolis Kellis (37:36.800)

You had an awesome game.

Lex Fridman (37:38.880)

And again, superficially,

Manolis Kellis (37:41.280)

it sounds like a super happy song.

Lex Fridman (37:43.040)

But then there's the last verse basically says,

Manolis Kellis (37:46.160)

no matter where you are, that's where you'll be.

Lex Fridman (37:47.920)

You can bet your luck won't follow me.

Manolis Kellis (37:50.720)

Just give you a song and then one night stand,

Lex Fridman (37:53.040)

you'll be looking at a happy man.

Lex Fridman (37:54.720)

And then in the video of the song,

Lex Fridman (37:56.160)

she just walks away or he just walks away

Manolis Kellis (37:57.760)

or something like that.

Lex Fridman (37:59.120)

And it basically tells you

Manolis Kellis (38:00.560)

that freedom comes at a price.

Lex Fridman (38:03.600)

Freedom comes at the price of non commitment.

Manolis Kellis (38:05.680)

This whole sort of birds who love

Lex Fridman (38:07.040)

or birds who cry,

Manolis Kellis (38:08.400)

you can't really love unless you cry.

Lex Fridman (38:11.600)

You can't just be the lucky one,

Manolis Kellis (38:12.800)

the happy boy, la la la,

Lex Fridman (38:14.960)

and yet have a long term relationship.

Lex Fridman (38:18.160)

So it's, on one hand,

Lex Fridman (38:20.240)

I identify with the shallowness of this song,

Manolis Kellis (38:22.240)

of you know, you're the lucky one,

Lex Fridman (38:24.080)

jack of all trades, a master or none.

Lex Fridman (38:26.560)

But at the same time,

Lex Fridman (38:27.840)

I identify with a lesson of,

Manolis Kellis (38:29.920)

well, you can't just be the happy,

Lex Fridman (38:31.920)

merry, go lucky all the time.

Manolis Kellis (38:33.520)

Sometimes you have to embrace loss

Lex Fridman (38:35.440)

and sometimes you have to embrace suffering.

Lex Fridman (38:37.440)

And sometimes you have to embrace that.

Lex Fridman (38:40.640)

If you have a safety net,

Manolis Kellis (38:42.160)

you're not really committing enough.

Lex Fridman (38:44.640)

You're not, you know,

Manolis Kellis (38:45.600)

basically you're allowing yourself to slip.

Lex Fridman (38:49.040)

But if you just go all in

Lex Fridman (38:50.480)

and you just, you know,

Lex Fridman (38:52.000)

let go of your reservations,

Manolis Kellis (38:53.520)

that's when you truly will get somewhere.

Lex Fridman (38:56.320)

So anyway, that's like the,

Lex Fridman (38:58.160)

I managed to narrow it down to what, 15 songs?

Lex Fridman (39:01.760)

Thank you for that wonderful journey

Manolis Kellis (39:03.760)

that you just took us on,

Lex Fridman (39:04.880)

the darkest possible places of Greek song

Manolis Kellis (39:10.480)

to ending on this country song.

Lex Fridman (39:13.520)

I haven't heard it before,

Lex Fridman (39:15.120)

but that's exactly right.

Lex Fridman (39:16.800)

I feel the same way,

Manolis Kellis (39:17.760)

depending on the day,

Lex Fridman (39:19.840)

is this the luckiest human on earth.

Lex Fridman (39:22.240)

And there's something to that,

Lex Fridman (39:23.840)

but you're right, it needs to be,

Manolis Kellis (39:27.520)

we need to now return to the muck of life

Lex Fridman (39:30.800)

in order to be able to truly enjoy it.

Lex Fridman (39:35.280)

So it's...

Lex Fridman (39:35.760)

What do you mean muck?

Lex Fridman (39:36.640)

What's muck?

Lex Fridman (39:38.000)

The messiness of life.

Manolis Kellis (39:39.280)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (39:39.760)

The things that were,

Manolis Kellis (39:41.440)

things don't turn out the way you expect it to.

Lex Fridman (39:44.480)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (39:44.960)

So like, to feel like you're in the right place,

Lex Fridman (39:47.520)

to feel lucky,

Manolis Kellis (39:48.800)

is like focusing on the beautiful consequences.

Lex Fridman (39:51.680)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (39:52.080)

But then that feeling of things being different

Lex Fridman (39:55.440)

than you expected,

Manolis Kellis (39:56.640)

that you stumble in all the kinds of ways,

Lex Fridman (39:59.680)

that seems to be,

Manolis Kellis (40:01.280)

needs to be paired with the feeling of luck.

Lex Fridman (40:03.200)

There's basically one way,

Manolis Kellis (40:04.640)

the only way not to make mistakes,

Lex Fridman (40:06.400)

is to never do anything.

Manolis Kellis (40:07.760)

Right.

Lex Fridman (40:10.080)

Basically, you have to embrace the fact

Manolis Kellis (40:11.680)

that you'll be wrong so many times.

Lex Fridman (40:13.360)

In so many research meetings,

Manolis Kellis (40:14.720)

I just go off on a tangent and say,

Lex Fridman (40:17.120)

let's think about this for a second.

Lex Fridman (40:18.880)

And it's just crazy for me,

Lex Fridman (40:21.120)

who's a computer scientist,

Manolis Kellis (40:22.400)

to just tell my biologist friends,

Lex Fridman (40:24.080)

what if biology kind of worked this way?

Manolis Kellis (40:25.680)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (40:26.800)

And they humor me.

Manolis Kellis (40:27.840)

They just let me talk.

Lex Fridman (40:29.600)

And rarely has it not gone somewhere good.

Manolis Kellis (40:34.160)

It's not that I'm always right,

Lex Fridman (40:35.600)

but it's always something worth exploring further,

Manolis Kellis (40:39.120)

that if you're an outsider with humility

Lex Fridman (40:42.800)

and knowing that I'll be wrong a bunch of times,

Lex Fridman (40:46.000)

but I'll challenge your assumptions,

Lex Fridman (40:49.680)

and often take us to a better place,

Manolis Kellis (40:52.320)

is part of this whole sort of messiness of life.

Lex Fridman (40:54.880)

Like if you don't try and lose and get hurt

Lex Fridman (40:58.000)

and suffer and cry and just break your heart

Lex Fridman (41:01.040)

and all these feelings of guilt and,

Manolis Kellis (41:03.680)

wow, I did the wrong thing.

Lex Fridman (41:06.400)

Of course, that's part of life.

Lex Fridman (41:07.680)

And that's just something that,

Lex Fridman (41:08.800)

if you are a doer, you'll make mistakes.

Manolis Kellis (41:12.400)

If you're a criticizer, yeah, sure,

Lex Fridman (41:14.720)

you can sit back and criticize everybody else

Manolis Kellis (41:16.880)

for the mistakes they make.

Lex Fridman (41:18.560)

Or instead, you can just be out there making those mistakes.

Lex Fridman (41:21.360)

And frankly, I'd rather be the criticized one

Lex Fridman (41:23.360)

than the criticizer.

Manolis Kellis (41:24.240)

Yeah, brilliantly put.

Lex Fridman (41:25.920)

Every time somebody steals my bicycle,

Manolis Kellis (41:27.600)

I say, well, no, my son's like,

Lex Fridman (41:29.600)

why do they steal our bicycle, dad?

Lex Fridman (41:31.360)

And I'm like, aren't you happy that you have bicycles

Lex Fridman (41:34.400)

that people can steal?

Manolis Kellis (41:35.200)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (41:36.020)

Aren't you happy that you have bicycles that people can steal?

Manolis Kellis (41:39.000)

I'd rather be the person stolen from than the stealer.

Lex Fridman (41:41.640)

Yeah, it's not the critic that counts.

Lex Fridman (41:45.080)

So that's, we've just talked amazingly

Lex Fridman (41:49.080)

about life from the music perspective.

Manolis Kellis (41:51.640)

Let's talk about life from, human life,

Lex Fridman (41:55.080)

from perhaps other perspective and its meaning.

Lex Fridman (41:57.320)

So this is episode 142.

Lex Fridman (42:00.520)

There is perhaps an absurdly deep meaning

Manolis Kellis (42:08.840)

to the number 42 that our culture has elevated.

Lex Fridman (42:13.680)

So this is a perfect time to talk about the meaning of life.

Manolis Kellis (42:16.760)

We've talked about it already,

Lex Fridman (42:18.400)

but do you think this question that's so simple

Lex Fridman (42:23.880)

and so seemingly absurd has value

Lex Fridman (42:27.540)

of what is the meaning of life?

Manolis Kellis (42:29.160)

Is it something that raising the question

Lex Fridman (42:33.280)

and trying to answer it, is that a ridiculous pursuit

Lex Fridman (42:36.520)

or is there some value?

Lex Fridman (42:37.560)

Is it answerable at all?

Lex Fridman (42:39.360)

So first of all, I feel that we owe it to your listeners

Lex Fridman (42:42.560)

to say why 42?

Manolis Kellis (42:44.000)

Sure.

Lex Fridman (42:46.040)

So of course the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Manolis Kellis (42:48.340)

came up with 42 as basically a random number.

Lex Fridman (42:52.220)

Just, you know, the author just pulled it out of a hat

Lex Fridman (42:55.480)

and he's admitted so.

Lex Fridman (42:56.680)

He said, well, 42 just seemed like just random numbers any.

Lex Fridman (43:01.480)

But in fact, there's many numbers that are linked to 42.

Lex Fridman (43:05.480)

So 42, again, just to summarize,

Manolis Kellis (43:09.320)

is the answer that these super mega computer

Lex Fridman (43:13.860)

that had computed for a million years

Manolis Kellis (43:15.960)

with the most powerful computer in the world

Lex Fridman (43:17.800)

had come up with.

Manolis Kellis (43:18.840)

At some point, the computer says,

Lex Fridman (43:21.980)

I have an answer.

Lex Fridman (43:23.340)

And they're like, what?

Lex Fridman (43:25.360)

It's like, you're not gonna like it.

Lex Fridman (43:27.200)

Like, what is it?

Lex Fridman (43:28.280)

It's 42.

Lex Fridman (43:30.480)

And then the irony is that they had forgotten, of course,

Lex Fridman (43:33.080)

what the question was.

Manolis Kellis (43:33.920)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (43:34.880)

So now they have to build a bigger computer

Manolis Kellis (43:36.360)

to figure out what the question is,

Lex Fridman (43:37.960)

to which the answer is 42.

Lex Fridman (43:39.420)

So as I was turning 42,

Lex Fridman (43:41.520)

I basically sort of researched

Lex Fridman (43:43.820)

why 42 is such a cool number.

Lex Fridman (43:45.760)

And it turns out that,

Lex Fridman (43:47.240)

and I put together this little passage

Lex Fridman (43:48.960)

that was explaining to all those guests

Manolis Kellis (43:51.200)

to my 42nd birthday party

Lex Fridman (43:53.120)

why we were talking about the meaning of life.

Lex Fridman (43:54.920)

And basically talked about how 42

Lex Fridman (43:58.520)

is the angle at which light reflects off of water

Manolis Kellis (44:03.240)

to create a rainbow.

Lex Fridman (44:05.760)

And it's so beautiful because the rainbow

Manolis Kellis (44:07.800)

is basically the combination of sort of,

Lex Fridman (44:09.920)

it's been raining, but there's hope

Manolis Kellis (44:11.800)

because the sun just came out.

Lex Fridman (44:13.320)

So it's a very beautiful number there.

Lex Fridman (44:14.920)

So 42 is also the sum of all rows and columns

Lex Fridman (44:17.780)

of a magic cube that contains all consecutive integers

Manolis Kellis (44:21.400)

starting at one.

Lex Fridman (44:22.760)

So basically, if you take all integers

Manolis Kellis (44:24.680)

between one and however many vertices there are,

Lex Fridman (44:27.360)

the sums is always 42.

Manolis Kellis (44:29.840)

42 is the only number left under 100

Lex Fridman (44:34.240)

for which the equation of X to the cube

Manolis Kellis (44:36.560)

plus Y to the cube plus Z to the cube is N

Lex Fridman (44:39.720)

and was not known to not have a solution.

Lex Fridman (44:42.000)

And now it's the only one that actually has a solution.

Lex Fridman (44:46.160)

42 is also one, zero, one, zero, one, zero in binary.

Manolis Kellis (44:50.240)

Again, the yin and the yang,

Lex Fridman (44:51.520)

the good and the evil,

Manolis Kellis (44:52.680)

one and zero, the balance of the force.

Lex Fridman (44:54.960)

42 is the number of chromosomes for the giant panda.

Lex Fridman (44:58.320)

And the giant panda, I know it's totally random.

Lex Fridman (45:01.920)

It's a suspicious symbol of great strength

Manolis Kellis (45:04.280)

coupled with peace, friendship, gentle temperament,

Lex Fridman (45:07.480)

harmony, balance, and friendship

Manolis Kellis (45:09.520)

whose black and white colors again symbolize yin and yang.

Lex Fridman (45:12.560)

The reason why it's the symbol for China

Manolis Kellis (45:15.040)

is exactly the strength, but yet peace and so on and so forth.

Lex Fridman (45:19.840)

So 42 chromosomes.

Manolis Kellis (45:21.680)

It takes light 10 to the minus 42 seconds

Lex Fridman (45:24.960)

to cross the diameter of a proton

Manolis Kellis (45:27.880)

connecting the two fundamental dimensions

Lex Fridman (45:29.560)

of space and time.

Manolis Kellis (45:31.160)

42 is the number of times a piece of paper

Lex Fridman (45:33.520)

should be folded to reach beyond the moon,

Manolis Kellis (45:40.120)

which is what I assume my students mean

Lex Fridman (45:41.960)

when they ask that their paper reaches for the stars.

Manolis Kellis (45:44.560)

I just tell them just fold it a bunch of times.

Lex Fridman (45:46.400)

42 is the number of messier object, 42, which is Orion.

Lex Fridman (45:54.240)

And that's one of the most famous galaxies.

Lex Fridman (45:58.520)

It's I think also the place where we can actually see

Manolis Kellis (46:00.800)

the center of our galaxy.

Lex Fridman (46:03.000)

42 is the numeric representation of the star symbol

Manolis Kellis (46:05.680)

in ASCII, which is very useful

Lex Fridman (46:09.200)

when searching for the stars.

Lex Fridman (46:10.880)

And also a reg exp for life, the universe and everything.

Lex Fridman (46:14.240)

So star, in Egyptian mythology, the goddess Maat

Manolis Kellis (46:20.120)

which was personifying truth and justice

Lex Fridman (46:22.320)

would ask 42 questions to every dying person.

Lex Fridman (46:25.600)

And those answering successfully would become stars

Lex Fridman (46:27.960)

continued to give life and fuel universal growth.

Manolis Kellis (46:31.320)

In Judaic tradition, God ascribe the 42 lettered name

Lex Fridman (46:35.680)

and trusted only to the middle age pious meek

Manolis Kellis (46:38.080)

free from bad temper, sober and not insistent on his rights.

Lex Fridman (46:42.120)

And in Christian tradition, there's 42 generations

Manolis Kellis (46:44.440)

from Abraham, Isaac, that we talked about,

Lex Fridman (46:47.240)

the story of Isaac, Jacob, eventually Joseph, Mary and Jesus.

Manolis Kellis (46:51.520)

In Kabbalistic tradition, Elocha, which is 42

Lex Fridman (46:54.920)

is the number with which God creates the universe

Manolis Kellis (46:57.920)

starting with 25, let there be and ending with 70, good.

Lex Fridman (47:02.920)

So 25 plus, you know, 17, there's a 42 chapter sutra,

Manolis Kellis (47:08.480)

which is the first Indian religious tradition

Lex Fridman (47:10.600)

which is the first Indian religious scripture

Manolis Kellis (47:12.840)

which was translated to Chinese,

Lex Fridman (47:14.640)

thus introducing Buddhism to China from India.

Manolis Kellis (47:18.800)

The 42 line Bible was the first printed book

Lex Fridman (47:21.920)

marking the age of printing in the 1450s

Lex Fridman (47:25.760)

and the dissemination of knowledge

Lex Fridman (47:27.240)

eventually leading to the enlightenment.

Manolis Kellis (47:29.560)

A yeast cell, which is called a single cell eukaryote

Lex Fridman (47:33.240)

and the subject of my PhD research

Manolis Kellis (47:34.800)

has exactly 42 million proteins.

Lex Fridman (47:38.080)

Anyway, so there's a series of 42.

Manolis Kellis (47:40.840)

You're on fire with this, these are really good.

Lex Fridman (47:42.920)

So I guess what you're saying is just a random number.

Manolis Kellis (47:45.680)

Yeah, basically.

Lex Fridman (47:47.280)

So all of these are backronyms.

Manolis Kellis (47:49.200)

So, you know, after you have the number,

Lex Fridman (47:50.440)

you figure out why that number.

Lex Fridman (47:52.120)

So anyway, so now that we've spoken about Y42,

Lex Fridman (47:56.360)

why do we search for meaning?

Lex Fridman (47:58.240)

And you're asking, you know, will that search

Lex Fridman (48:01.080)

ultimately lead to our destruction?

Lex Fridman (48:02.560)

And my thinking is exactly the opposite.

Lex Fridman (48:04.840)

So basically that asking about meaning

Manolis Kellis (48:08.520)

is something that's so inherent to human nature.

Lex Fridman (48:11.480)

It's something that makes life beautiful

Manolis Kellis (48:13.440)

that makes it worth living.

Lex Fridman (48:14.960)

And that searching for meaning is actually the point.

Manolis Kellis (48:18.480)

It's not the finding it.

Lex Fridman (48:19.680)

I think when you found it, you're dead.

Manolis Kellis (48:22.720)

Don't ever be satisfied that, you know, I've got it.

Lex Fridman (48:26.520)

So I like to say that life is lived forward

Lex Fridman (48:30.080)

but it only makes sense backward.

Lex Fridman (48:32.280)

And I don't remember whose quote that is,

Lex Fridman (48:34.440)

but the whole search itself is the meaning.

Lex Fridman (48:39.680)

And what I love about it is that

Manolis Kellis (48:43.360)

there's a double search going on.

Lex Fridman (48:44.960)

There's a search in every one of us

Manolis Kellis (48:47.640)

through our own lives to find meaning.

Lex Fridman (48:50.760)

And then there's a search which is happening

Manolis Kellis (48:52.960)

for humanity itself to find our meaning.

Lex Fridman (48:56.800)

And we as humans like to look at animals and say,

Manolis Kellis (49:01.560)

of course they have a meaning.

Lex Fridman (49:03.120)

Like a dog has its meaning.

Manolis Kellis (49:04.960)

It's just a bunch of instincts, you know,

Lex Fridman (49:07.000)

running around, loving everything.

Manolis Kellis (49:09.400)

You know, remember our joke with a cat and the dog.

Lex Fridman (49:11.520)

Yeah, cat has no meaning.

Manolis Kellis (49:14.360)

No, no.

Lex Fridman (49:15.400)

So, and I'm noticing the yin yang symbol right here

Manolis Kellis (49:20.600)

with this whole panda, black and white and the 0102.

Lex Fridman (49:23.360)

You're on fire with that 42.

Manolis Kellis (49:24.960)

Some of those are gold ASCII value for a star symbol.

Lex Fridman (49:29.520)

Damn.

Lex Fridman (49:30.360)

So basically in my view, the search for meaning

Lex Fridman (49:34.280)

and the act of searching for something more meaningful

Manolis Kellis (49:39.200)

is life's meaning by itself.

Lex Fridman (49:43.160)

The fact that we kind of always hope that,

Manolis Kellis (49:45.600)

yes, maybe for animals that's not the case,

Lex Fridman (49:47.960)

but maybe humans have something that we should be doing

Lex Fridman (49:51.200)

and something else.

Lex Fridman (49:52.040)

And it's not just about procreation.

Manolis Kellis (49:53.480)

It's not just about dominance.

Lex Fridman (49:55.400)

It's not just about strength and feeding, et cetera.

Manolis Kellis (49:58.320)

Like we're the one species that spends such a tiny,

Lex Fridman (50:00.840)

little minority of its time feeding

Manolis Kellis (50:03.400)

that we have this enormous, huge cognitive capability

Lex Fridman (50:08.720)

that we can just use for all kinds of other stuff.

Lex Fridman (50:11.080)

And that's where art comes in.

Lex Fridman (50:12.880)

That's where the healthy mind comes in

Manolis Kellis (50:15.920)

with exploring all of these different aspects

Lex Fridman (50:18.280)

that are just not directly tied to a purpose.

Manolis Kellis (50:23.560)

That's not directly tied to a function.

Lex Fridman (50:25.760)

It's really just the playing of life.

Manolis Kellis (50:28.520)

The, you know, not for particular reason.

Lex Fridman (50:32.400)

Do you think this thing we got,

Manolis Kellis (50:34.240)

this mind is unique in the universe

Lex Fridman (50:39.640)

in terms of how difficult it is to build?

Manolis Kellis (50:43.320)

Is it possible that we're the most beautiful thing

Lex Fridman (50:47.480)

that the universe has constructed?

Manolis Kellis (50:49.840)

Both the most beautiful and the most ugly,

Lex Fridman (50:51.120)

but certainly the most complex.

Lex Fridman (50:52.520)

So look at evolutionary time.

Lex Fridman (50:55.040)

The dinosaurs ruled the earth for 135 million years.

Manolis Kellis (50:58.880)

We've been around for a million years.

Lex Fridman (51:02.960)

So one versus 135.

Lex Fridman (51:05.800)

So dinosaurs were extinct, you know,

Lex Fridman (51:07.720)

about 60 million years ago

Lex Fridman (51:09.080)

and mammals that had been happily evolving

Lex Fridman (51:11.000)

as tiny little creatures for 30 million years

Manolis Kellis (51:13.280)

then took over the planet and then, you know,

Lex Fridman (51:15.440)

dramatically radiated about 60 million years ago.

Manolis Kellis (51:19.080)

Out of these mammals came the neocortex formation.

Lex Fridman (51:24.000)

So basically the neocortex,

Manolis Kellis (51:25.560)

which is sort of the outer layer of our brain

Lex Fridman (51:28.040)

compared to our quote unquote reptilian brain,

Manolis Kellis (51:29.800)

which we share the structure of with all of the dinosaurs.

Lex Fridman (51:33.160)

They didn't have that and yet they ruled the planet.

Lex Fridman (51:36.000)

So how many other planets have still, you know,

Lex Fridman (51:38.720)

mindless dinosaurs where strength

Lex Fridman (51:41.560)

was the only dimension ruling the planet?

Lex Fridman (51:45.440)

So there was something weird that annihilated the dinosaurs.

Lex Fridman (51:49.360)

And again, you could look at biblical things

Lex Fridman (51:51.040)

of sort of God coming and wiping out his creatures

Manolis Kellis (51:53.720)

to make room for the next ones.

Lex Fridman (51:55.080)

So the mammals basically sort of took over the planet

Lex Fridman (51:59.120)

and then grew this cognitive capability

Lex Fridman (52:03.160)

of this general purpose machine.

Lex Fridman (52:06.240)

And primates push that to extreme

Lex Fridman (52:10.520)

and humans among primates have just exploded that hardware.

Lex Fridman (52:15.480)

But that hardware is selected for survival.

Lex Fridman (52:20.480)

It's selected for procreation.

Manolis Kellis (52:23.080)

It's initially selected with his very simple

Lex Fridman (52:26.160)

Darwinian view of the world of random mutation,

Manolis Kellis (52:30.440)

ruthless selection, and then selection

Lex Fridman (52:32.640)

for making more of yourself.

Manolis Kellis (52:35.720)

If you look at human cognition,

Lex Fridman (52:38.880)

it's gone down a weird evolutionary path

Manolis Kellis (52:41.680)

in the sense that we are expanding

Lex Fridman (52:44.800)

an enormous amount of energy on this apparatus

Manolis Kellis (52:47.840)

between our ears that is wasting, what,

Lex Fridman (52:50.720)

15% of our bodily energy, 20%,

Manolis Kellis (52:53.800)

like some enormous percentage of our calories

Lex Fridman (52:57.800)

go to function our brain.

Manolis Kellis (53:00.800)

No other species makes that big of a commitment.

Lex Fridman (53:03.960)

That has basically taken energetic changes

Manolis Kellis (53:06.840)

for efficiency on the metabolic side for humanity

Lex Fridman (53:11.280)

to basically power that thing.

Lex Fridman (53:13.400)

And our brain is both enormously more efficient

Lex Fridman (53:17.000)

than other brains, but also, despite this efficiency,

Manolis Kellis (53:20.480)

enormously more energy consuming.

Lex Fridman (53:23.480)

So, and if you look at just the sheer folds

Manolis Kellis (53:27.000)

that the human brain has, again, our skull could only

Lex Fridman (53:30.400)

grow so much before it could no longer go

Manolis Kellis (53:32.720)

through the pelvic opening and kill the mother

Lex Fridman (53:36.600)

at every birth, so, but yet the folds continued

Manolis Kellis (53:40.560)

effectively creating just so much more capacity.

Lex Fridman (53:43.720)

The evolutionary context in which this was made

Manolis Kellis (53:48.720)

is enormously fascinating, and it has to do with

Lex Fridman (53:53.480)

other humans that we have now killed off

Manolis Kellis (53:55.680)

or that have gone extinct.

Lex Fridman (53:57.480)

And that has now created this weird place of humans

Manolis Kellis (54:01.360)

on the planet as the only species

Lex Fridman (54:03.520)

that has this enormous hardware.

Lex Fridman (54:05.880)

So that can basically make us think

Lex Fridman (54:07.520)

that there's something very weird and unique

Manolis Kellis (54:09.200)

that happened in human evolution that perhaps

Lex Fridman (54:11.080)

has not been recreated elsewhere. Maybe the asteroid

Manolis Kellis (54:13.640)

didn't hit, you know, sister earth,

Lex Fridman (54:15.920)

and dinosaurs are still ruling, and, you know,

Manolis Kellis (54:19.400)

any kind of proto human is squished

Lex Fridman (54:21.120)

and eaten for breakfast basically.

Manolis Kellis (54:25.440)

However, we're not as unique as we like to think

Lex Fridman (54:28.640)

because there was this enormous diversity

Manolis Kellis (54:30.720)

of other human like forms.

Lex Fridman (54:33.040)

And once you make it to that stage where you have

Manolis Kellis (54:35.720)

a neocortex like explosion of, wow, we're not

Lex Fridman (54:38.760)

competing on intelligence, and we're not competing

Manolis Kellis (54:41.200)

on social structures, and we're not competing

Lex Fridman (54:43.080)

on larger and larger groups, and being able to

Manolis Kellis (54:47.840)

coordinate and being able to have empathy,

Lex Fridman (54:51.880)

the concept of empathy, the concept of an ego,

Manolis Kellis (54:55.280)

the concept of a self, of self awareness,

Lex Fridman (54:58.640)

comes probably from being able to project

Manolis Kellis (55:04.000)

another person's intentions,

Lex Fridman (55:06.520)

another person's intentions to understand

Lex Fridman (55:10.000)

what they mean when you have these large cognitive groups,

Lex Fridman (55:13.480)

large social groups.

Lex Fridman (55:15.160)

So me being able to sort of create a mental model

Lex Fridman (55:19.080)

of how you think may have come before I was able

Manolis Kellis (55:22.520)

to create a personal mental model of how do I think.

Lex Fridman (55:26.360)

So this introspection probably came after this sort

Manolis Kellis (55:30.680)

of projection and this empathy, which basically means,

Lex Fridman (55:34.640)

you know, passion, pathos, suffering,

Lex Fridman (55:37.720)

but basically sensing.

Lex Fridman (55:39.120)

So basically empathy means feeling what you're feeling,

Manolis Kellis (55:42.600)

trying to project your emotional state

Lex Fridman (55:45.320)

onto my cognitive apparatus.

Lex Fridman (55:47.520)

And I think that is what eventually led

Lex Fridman (55:51.360)

to this enormous cognitive explosion

Manolis Kellis (55:55.240)

that happened in humanity.

Lex Fridman (55:56.680)

So, you know, life itself in my view is inevitable

Manolis Kellis (56:02.840)

on every planet.

Lex Fridman (56:03.680)

Inevitable. Inevitable.

Lex Fridman (56:05.480)

But the evolution of life to self awareness and cognition

Lex Fridman (56:09.920)

and all the incredible things that humans have done,

Manolis Kellis (56:12.680)

you know, that might not be as inevitable.

Lex Fridman (56:14.600)

That's your intuition.

Lex Fridman (56:15.440)

So if you were to sort of estimate and bet some money on it,

Lex Fridman (56:20.640)

if we reran Earth a million times,

Manolis Kellis (56:26.000)

would what we got now be the most special thing

Lex Fridman (56:29.520)

and how often would it be?

Lex Fridman (56:30.960)

So scientifically speaking, how repeatable is this experiment?

Lex Fridman (56:36.240)

So this whole cognitive revolution?

Manolis Kellis (56:38.640)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (56:40.520)

Maybe not.

Manolis Kellis (56:41.920)

Maybe not.

Lex Fridman (56:42.760)

Basically, I feel that the longevity of, you know,

Manolis Kellis (56:47.640)

dinosaurs suggests that it was not quite inevitable

Lex Fridman (56:51.880)

that we humans eventually made it.

Lex Fridman (56:56.680)

What you're also implying one thing here.

Lex Fridman (56:59.200)

You're saying, you're implying that humans

Manolis Kellis (57:01.120)

also don't have this longevity.

Lex Fridman (57:03.320)

This is the interesting question.

Lex Fridman (57:05.000)

So with the Fermi Paradox, the idea that the basic question

Lex Fridman (57:09.480)

is like, if the universe has a lot of alien life forms in it,

Lex Fridman (57:14.360)

why haven't we seen them?

Lex Fridman (57:16.440)

And one thought is that there's a great filter

Manolis Kellis (57:19.320)

or multiple great filters that basically would destroy

Lex Fridman (57:23.600)

intelligent civilizations.

Manolis Kellis (57:24.880)

Like this thing that we, you know, this multifolding brain

Lex Fridman (57:28.560)

that keeps growing may not be such a big feature.

Manolis Kellis (57:32.080)

It might be useful for survival,

Lex Fridman (57:34.200)

but it like takes us down a side road

Manolis Kellis (57:38.400)

that is a very short one with a quick dead end.

Lex Fridman (57:41.120)

What do you think about that?

Lex Fridman (57:42.160)

So I think the universe is enormous,

Lex Fridman (57:45.560)

not just in space, but also in time.

Lex Fridman (57:50.040)

And the pretense that, you know, the last blink

Lex Fridman (57:55.040)

of an instant that we've been able to send radio waves

Manolis Kellis (57:58.760)

is when somebody should have been paying attention

Lex Fridman (58:00.320)

to our planet is a little ridiculous.

Lex Fridman (58:03.840)

So my, you know, what I love about Star Wars

Lex Fridman (58:07.200)

is a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.

Manolis Kellis (58:10.720)

It's not like some distant future.

Lex Fridman (58:11.880)

It's a long, long time ago.

Lex Fridman (58:13.480)

What I love about it is that basically says,

Lex Fridman (58:15.960)

you know, evolution and civilization

Manolis Kellis (58:19.360)

are just so recent in, you know, on earth.

Lex Fridman (58:23.760)

Like there's countless other planets

Manolis Kellis (58:25.080)

that have probably all kinds of life forms,

Lex Fridman (58:27.720)

multicellular perhaps, and so on and so forth.

Lex Fridman (58:31.560)

But the fact that humanity has only been listening

Lex Fridman (58:35.840)

and emitting for just this tiny little blink

Manolis Kellis (58:39.360)

means that any of these, you know, alien civilizations

Lex Fridman (58:42.800)

would need to be paying attention

Manolis Kellis (58:44.080)

to every single insignificant planet out there.

Lex Fridman (58:47.160)

And, you know, again, I mean, the movie Contact

Lex Fridman (58:50.320)

and the book is just so beautiful.

Lex Fridman (58:52.360)

This whole concept of we don't need to travel physically.

Manolis Kellis (58:56.160)

We can travel as light.

Lex Fridman (58:57.680)

We can send instructions for people to create machines

Manolis Kellis (59:01.000)

that will allow us to beam down light

Lex Fridman (59:03.080)

and recreate ourselves.

Lex Fridman (59:04.840)

And in the book, you know, the aliens actually take over.

Lex Fridman (59:07.480)

They're not as friendly.

Manolis Kellis (59:09.800)

But, you know, this concept that we have to eventually

Lex Fridman (59:13.520)

go and conquer every planet.

Manolis Kellis (59:14.720)

I mean, I think that, yes,

Lex Fridman (59:16.640)

we will become a galactic species.

Lex Fridman (59:18.560)

So you have a hope, well, you said think, so.

Lex Fridman (59:22.440)

Oh, of course, of course.

Manolis Kellis (59:23.280)

I mean, now that we've made it so far.

Lex Fridman (59:25.840)

So you feel like we've made it.

Manolis Kellis (59:27.200)

Oh gosh, I feel that, you know, cognition,

Lex Fridman (59:30.080)

the cognition as an evolutionary trait

Manolis Kellis (59:31.760)

has won over in our planet.

Lex Fridman (59:33.800)

There's no doubt that we've made it.

Lex Fridman (59:35.320)

So basically humans have won the battle for, you know,

Lex Fridman (59:40.240)

dominance.

Manolis Kellis (59:41.360)

It wasn't necessarily the case with dinosaurs.

Lex Fridman (59:43.760)

Like, I mean, yes, you know,

Manolis Kellis (59:46.120)

there's some claims of intelligence.

Lex Fridman (59:50.360)

And if you look at Jurassic Park, yeah, sure, whatever.

Manolis Kellis (59:53.800)

But, you know, they just don't have the hardware for it.

Lex Fridman (59:58.000)

And humans have the hardware.

Manolis Kellis (59:59.280)

There's no doubt that mammals have