David Fravor: UFOs, Aliens, Fighter Jets, and Aerospace Engineering
音乐与艺术政治与社会太空与探索技术与编程历史与文明
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🔑 关键词
goinggotdonstuffsaidairplaneheydoinggoesguyputtalkflyinglookinggovernmenttalkingtechnologymoneyflyradar
💬 精彩语录
"You have a really strong gut for the 80% solution, just yeah, I'm a big believer in the 80% solution."
你对 80% 的解决方案有很强的直觉，是的，我非常相信 80% 的解决方案。
— David Fravor （15:38.560）
🎙️ 完整对话（4348 条）
Lex Fridman (00:00.000)
The following is a conversation with Commander David Fravor, who was a Navy pilot for 18 years
以下是与曾担任海军飞行员 18 年的戴维·弗拉沃尔 (David Fravor) 中校的对话
Lex Fridman (00:05.700)
and commander of the Strike Fighter Squadron 41, also known as the Black Aces, a squadron
第 41 攻击战斗机中队（也称为“黑色王牌”）的指挥官
Lex Fridman (00:12.060)
of 12 airplanes consisting of several hundred people.
12架飞机，数百人。
Lex Fridman (00:15.420)
He's also famously one of the people who with his own eyes saw and chased a UFO, an
他也是著名的亲眼看到并追逐不明飞行物的人之一
Lex Fridman (00:23.660)
identified flying object in 2004 that is referred to as the Tic Tac and the incident more formally
2004年发现了被称为“Tic Tac”的飞行物体，并更正式地提及了这一事件
David Fravor (00:30.840)
referred to as the USS Nimitz UFO incident.
简称“尼米兹号”UFO 事件。
David Fravor (00:35.200)
His story, corroborated by several other pilots from my perspective as a curious scientist
从我作为一名好奇科学家的角度来看，他的故事得到了其他几名飞行员的证实
Lex Fridman (00:40.800)
and an open minded human being, is the most credible sighting of a UFO in history, at
和一个思想开放的人类，是历史上最可信的不明飞行物目击事件，
Lex Fridman (00:47.280)
least that I'm aware of.
至少据我所知。
David Fravor (00:49.440)
He's a humble, fascinating, and fun human being to talk to.
他是一个谦虚、迷人且有趣的人。
David Fravor (00:53.520)
I put out a call for questions on Reddit and many other places and tried to ask as many
我在 Reddit 和许多其他地方发起了提问，并尝试询问尽可能多的问题
David Fravor (00:58.320)
of the questions that people posted as I could.
人们尽可能提出的问题。
Lex Fridman (01:01.160)
And overall, I really enjoyed this conversation and I'm sure if the world wants us to, and
总的来说，我真的很喜欢这次谈话，我确信世界是否希望我们这样做，并且
David Fravor (01:06.440)
if there's more questions to be had, we'll talk on this podcast again.
如果还有更多问题，我们将再次在此播客上讨论。
Lex Fridman (01:10.880)
Quick summary of the sponsors, Athletic Greens, ExpressVPN, and BetterHelp.
赞助商 Athletic Greens、ExpressVPN 和 BetterHelp 的快速摘要。
David Fravor (01:16.160)
Please check out the sponsors in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast.
请查看说明中的赞助商以获得折扣并支持此播客。
David Fravor (01:21.720)
As a side note, let me say that the world of UFOs and UAPs, unidentified aerial phenomena,
作为旁注，让我说一下，UFO 和 UAP 的世界，不明飞行物，
Lex Fridman (01:27.840)
and aliens in general is foreign to me because of the high ratio of outlandish conspiracy
一般来说，外星人对我来说是陌生的，因为离奇阴谋的比例很高
Lex Fridman (01:33.280)
theorists to actual hard evidence.
理论家以实际确凿的证据。
David Fravor (01:36.760)
I'm a scientist first and foremost, but an open minded one, often looking and thinking
我首先是一名科学家，但也是一个思想开放的人，经常观察和思考
Lex Fridman (01:41.640)
outside the box.
David Fravor (01:43.000)
I'm often disheartened by the closed mindedness of the scientific community.
Lex Fridman (01:47.680)
And in equal part, I'm disheartened by the lack of rigor and basic scientific inquiry
Lex Fridman (01:52.920)
and study on the part of the conspiracy theorists.
David Fravor (01:56.760)
I believe there's a line somewhere between the two extremes that more inquisitive minds
David Fravor (02:02.040)
should walk.
David Fravor (02:03.800)
I think we humans know very little about our world, what's up there among the stars and
David Fravor (02:09.080)
the nature of reality and the nature of our very own minds.
Lex Fridman (02:14.240)
The path to understanding can only be walked humbly.
David Fravor (02:17.640)
The very idea that there is a possibility that David witnessed a piece of technology,
David Fravor (02:22.880)
whether human made or alien made, that moved in the way it did, should be inspiring to
David Fravor (02:28.140)
every scientist and engineer on this earth.
David Fravor (02:31.220)
There may be propulsion and energy systems yet to be discovered that, once understood
Lex Fridman (02:35.880)
and mastered, will put distant galaxies within reach of us human beings.
David Fravor (02:41.280)
Paradigm shifts in science and leaps in understanding can only happen, I think, if we open our eyes
Lex Fridman (02:47.400)
and allow ourselves to dream, to think from first principles, and remove the constraints
Lex Fridman (02:52.920)
and innovation placed on us by the scientific conventions and assumptions of prior generations.
David Fravor (02:59.480)
If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it with 5 Stars on Apple Podcast, follow
Lex Fridman (03:04.320)
on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Freedman.
David Fravor (03:10.040)
As usual, I'll do a few minutes of ads now and no ads in the middle.
David Fravor (03:14.220)
More and more I'm trying to make these ad reads unique and interesting and less adzy,
David Fravor (03:20.200)
more personal, but I give you timestamps so you can skip, but still please do check out
David Fravor (03:24.880)
the sponsors by clicking the links in the description, it is honestly the best way to
David Fravor (03:29.640)
support this podcast.
David Fravor (03:31.240)
This show is brought to you by Athletic Greens, the all in one daily drink to support health
Lex Fridman (03:36.200)
and performance.
Lex Fridman (03:37.200)
I drink it every day to make sure I'm not missing any of the nutrition I need.
David Fravor (03:41.800)
Now let me take a hard left turn and talk about fasting.
David Fravor (03:45.640)
I fast often, sometimes intermittent fasting of 16 hours and then an 8 hour eating period
David Fravor (03:51.720)
of 2 meals, sometimes 24 hours, that's one dinner to the next.
David Fravor (03:57.080)
I've been even considering doing a 48 or 72 hour fast that some people I look up to
David Fravor (04:01.640)
have done.
David Fravor (04:03.040)
People who have done it tell me that outside of weight loss and the different health benefits,
David Fravor (04:07.080)
it's a chance to meditate on the finiteness of life.
David Fravor (04:11.460)
Not eating somehow is a reminder that we're immortal, that every day is precious.
David Fravor (04:16.800)
I certainly experienced this with the 24 hour fast and I think it goes even deeper for the
Lex Fridman (04:21.840)
48, 72, and even week long fasts.
David Fravor (04:25.760)
Anyway, I always break my fast with Athletic Greens, it's delicious, refreshing, just makes
Lex Fridman (04:30.920)
me feel good.
Lex Fridman (04:31.920)
So go to athleticgreens.com slash lex to claim a special offer of free vitamin D for a year.
David Fravor (04:38.360)
Again go to athleticgreens.com slash lex to get free stuff and to support this podcast.
David Fravor (04:45.600)
This show is also sponsored by ExpressVPN.
Lex Fridman (04:49.120)
Get it at expressvpn.com slash lexpod to get a discount.
David Fravor (04:53.340)
You probably know there's a show called The Office that I fell in love with, first with
David Fravor (04:56.880)
the British version with Ricky Gervais and then the American version with Steve Carell.
David Fravor (05:02.400)
ExpressVPN lets you pretend your location is somewhere else, choosing from nearly 100
David Fravor (05:07.360)
different countries and then watch one of the nine totally different other versions
David Fravor (05:11.320)
of The Office in other countries.
David Fravor (05:14.360)
Also it protects you when you do shady things on the internet that you shouldn't be doing.
David Fravor (05:19.560)
Like checking the website of this very podcast that for some reason was not available in
David Fravor (05:24.280)
Russia for a long time, not sure if it still is, but if it isn't you can use ExpressVPN
David Fravor (05:29.860)
to access it.
David Fravor (05:31.000)
I think of ExpressVPN like a pirate ship, and regular VPN free life as a boring cruise
David Fravor (05:37.280)
from one place to another with no excitement in between.
Lex Fridman (05:41.120)
Choose wisely my friends.
David Fravor (05:43.320)
Again get it on any device at expressvpn.com slash lexpod to get an extra three months
Lex Fridman (05:48.240)
free and to support this podcast.
David Fravor (05:51.680)
This show is sponsored by BetterHelp, spelled H E L P help.
David Fravor (05:56.360)
Like you would try to spell if you were on a deserted island and trying to get an airplane
David Fravor (06:00.800)
to notice you.
Lex Fridman (06:02.120)
Check it out at betterhelp.com slash lex.
David Fravor (06:04.920)
They figure out what you need and match you with a licensed professional therapist and
David Fravor (06:08.280)
under 48 hours you can communicate by text anytime and schedule weekly audio and video
David Fravor (06:13.840)
sessions.
Lex Fridman (06:14.840)
Now, hard left turn, let me talk about desert islands.
David Fravor (06:18.840)
Whatever you think of it, I love the movie Cast Away with Tom Hanks and the idea of spending
Lex Fridman (06:23.040)
time on an island, alone, with potentially no hope.
Lex Fridman (06:27.120)
The natural question is, if I could, what would I bring to this island?
David Fravor (06:31.640)
The answer is complicated, but let me pick one thing, the first thing that popped into
David Fravor (06:36.080)
my crazy mind which is the Introduction to Algorithms book, also called CLRS for the
Lex Fridman (06:41.920)
first letters of the last name of its four authors.
David Fravor (06:44.840)
I find algorithms beautiful, like a little toolbox for a simple world inside computers
Lex Fridman (06:50.480)
when the real world outside is an impossible chaotic mess.
David Fravor (06:55.080)
I would love pondering the puzzles in that book for months, far away from human civilization.
David Fravor (06:59.720)
Anyway, check out BetterHelp at betterhelp.com slash lex to get a discount and to support
David Fravor (07:06.240)
this podcast.
Lex Fridman (07:07.920)
And now, finally, here's my conversation with David Fravor.
David Fravor (07:13.840)
You're a graduate of the Navy Fighter Weapons School.
Lex Fridman (07:17.480)
Yeah, I am.
David Fravor (07:18.880)
Better known as Top Gun.
Lex Fridman (07:20.400)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (07:21.400)
Let me ask the most ridiculous question, how realistic is the movie Top Gun?
Lex Fridman (07:26.280)
So it's funny, we used to joke, and a friend of mine who was a Top Gun instructor said
David Fravor (07:31.400)
this, there's two things in the original Top Gun that are true, that are very realistic.
David Fravor (07:36.400)
One, there is a place called Top Gun, and number two is they do fly airplanes there.
David Fravor (07:43.240)
Other than that, I went through in 97, class 497, and there's actually a log of every single
Lex Fridman (07:50.720)
person that's went through, kind of like a SEAL training.
David Fravor (07:53.960)
There's a list.
Lex Fridman (07:54.960)
Because there's a lot of posers out there, oh, I was a Navy SEAL.
David Fravor (07:57.600)
No, you weren't.
Lex Fridman (07:58.600)
Well, I went to Top Gun.
David Fravor (07:59.600)
You can actually go to Top Gun, and matter of fact, just to get a Top Gun patch, the
Lex Fridman (08:03.240)
real patch, you have to have gone there.
Lex Fridman (08:07.080)
So a lot of the patches you see running around are not real.
Lex Fridman (08:11.560)
The real ones are controlled.
David Fravor (08:13.200)
The people that make them honor that.
Lex Fridman (08:16.200)
And when you go in, they look up your name.
David Fravor (08:17.920)
If you want to get one, they look up your name.
Lex Fridman (08:19.360)
You just tell them, they go, okay, here, and they'll sell them to you.
David Fravor (08:21.200)
If you are not on the list, you ain't get no patch.
David Fravor (08:24.720)
Because it is, it's a pretty big deal to go through, but for me, probably one of the best
David Fravor (08:31.380)
experiences of flying, because everyone there is extremely competent.
Lex Fridman (08:36.240)
It's very, very challenging, but it's what we all signed up to do.
Lex Fridman (08:41.600)
So it's, it's just the entire group that is, when you want to be that, you know, that level,
David Fravor (08:49.520)
you know, where you go, everyone really cares, and everyone really wants to be good.
Lex Fridman (08:53.280)
Is it competitive?
Lex Fridman (08:54.280)
Like, what was it, in the movie?
David Fravor (08:56.000)
No, it's, when you go through, it's, you know, it's, if anything, it's more of the
David Fravor (09:00.640)
students, you know, and then there's the instructor side, then the instructor sides are really,
David Fravor (09:04.520)
you know, they're guys that, you know, they just chose to stay up in Fallon.
Lex Fridman (09:09.120)
And it's extremely difficult job, because they have, they have a very small tolerance
David Fravor (09:15.480)
for not being good.
Lex Fridman (09:20.420)
So they're briefs, the guys when they give a lecture, so let's just say there's a fighter
David Fravor (09:24.360)
employment lecture, which is one of the hardest ones.
Lex Fridman (09:26.200)
It takes about two days to give the fighter employment lecture.
David Fravor (09:30.040)
The guy who gives the lecture goes through multiple, what they call them murder boards,
David Fravor (09:33.560)
where he's scrutinized by his peers, and he practices, by the time they actually stand
David Fravor (09:37.420)
in front of a class, they pretty much have their 250 PowerPoint slides memorized, and
Lex Fridman (09:43.600)
they don't even turn around, they just click and they know them in order.
Lex Fridman (09:46.760)
And they repeat the same thing over, it's, and it's standardized.
Lex Fridman (09:50.760)
So they are extremely, extremely standardized when you go through the school, and there's
David Fravor (09:53.760)
a reason for that, because what they're doing is they're training, so when you come out
Lex Fridman (09:58.000)
of Top Gun, you're called a Strike Fighter Weapons and Tactics Instructor, okay?
Lex Fridman (10:01.560)
So you're SFTI.
David Fravor (10:03.940)
When you come out of that, your job is to go usually to one of the weapons schools on
David Fravor (10:07.480)
the East or West Coast and train the fleet squadrons, and then you visit the squadrons
Lex Fridman (10:11.560)
and train and do upgrade rides and all that.
Lex Fridman (10:13.480)
So there's a, there's a reason that they are extremely particular when you go through the
Lex Fridman (10:19.440)
course.
David Fravor (10:20.440)
It's, it is literally one of the best things, and it's not, it's not a rank based thing,
David Fravor (10:23.800)
just think, oh, Navy, you can come in as a, you know, like an 04 Lieutenant Commander.
David Fravor (10:30.480)
The lieutenants, the hierarchy, or at least to be, I don't know how it is exactly today,
Lex Fridman (10:34.440)
but I imagine it's the same.
David Fravor (10:36.280)
The hierarchy is actually based on seniority at the school, not necessarily rank.
Lex Fridman (10:40.460)
So when the tactical decisions are made, which are based on fact and trying things out in
David Fravor (10:45.920)
the Fallon Ranges, they set the top X number of folks that have been there seniority wise,
Lex Fridman (10:52.520)
and I mean time wise, are the ones that actually make the decision.
Lex Fridman (10:56.440)
And when the door, you may not agree, but when the door opens and everyone comes out
Lex Fridman (11:01.240)
from the staff, they all speak the same language.
David Fravor (11:05.000)
It's and it has to be that way, which is why the school has been so effective since it
Lex Fridman (11:09.680)
was founded.
Lex Fridman (11:11.120)
So it's just a, it's an incredible group of individuals.
Lex Fridman (11:14.120)
So there's a bar of excellence that, that the instructors demand.
David Fravor (11:19.720)
Oh, very much so, and they're held to it.
Lex Fridman (11:22.760)
So it's not a, hey, I'm now an instructor, so I can do what I want.
David Fravor (11:26.440)
There is a standard and they have to live up to that standard.
Lex Fridman (11:29.960)
They have to, and I mean every moment of every day.
Lex Fridman (11:33.720)
So if they go someplace, if they go from Fallon and they come down and do, they're called
David Fravor (11:37.260)
site visits where they come down and they'll come to Lemoore, California, which is where
David Fravor (11:40.200)
the West Coast Fighter Wing is at for the Navy.
Lex Fridman (11:42.780)
And they go around and start flying sorties with the fleet squadrons to kind of pass on
David Fravor (11:47.880)
some of that knowledge, that's that same high level of standard.
Lex Fridman (11:51.000)
It's they can't just drop your guard because you wear the Top Gun patch.
Lex Fridman (11:55.200)
And people know that.
Lex Fridman (11:56.200)
And they wear light blue shirts.
Lex Fridman (11:57.200)
So it's pretty easy to identify them when they're out there.
Lex Fridman (12:00.240)
And you know, and then everyone else who's been through the school, including them, have
David Fravor (12:02.800)
the patch on their sleeve.
Lex Fridman (12:04.060)
So there's a standard that's expected when you come out of there.
Lex Fridman (12:07.060)
So you were a Navy pilot for 18 years.
Lex Fridman (12:10.160)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (12:11.160)
Can you briefly tell the story of your career as a pilot?
Lex Fridman (12:15.720)
Yeah.
David Fravor (12:16.720)
So, you know, first I was in, I was enlisted, I was a Marine.
Lex Fridman (12:21.200)
And then the Marines actually sent me, recommended me to go to the Naval Academy.
Lex Fridman (12:27.580)
So it's always better to be lucky than good.
Lex Fridman (12:29.220)
But I got to go to the Naval Academy and I finished and I've had that dream to fly.
Lex Fridman (12:33.280)
So when I got selected,
Lex Fridman (12:34.280)
You've always dreamed of flying.
David Fravor (12:36.280)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (12:37.280)
Since 1969, when I watched Neil Armstrong walk on the moon.
David Fravor (12:41.200)
I was at that point, I asked my mom, I remember watching it, I was just prior to being five.
Lex Fridman (12:46.680)
And I said, wow, yeah, it's so cool, mom.
Lex Fridman (12:50.960)
And she said, well, you know, they were all pilots.
Lex Fridman (12:53.400)
And then at that point it was like, I'm going to be a pilot.
Lex Fridman (12:56.480)
And if you knew me growing up, cause I was a little bit of a delinquent, people are just
Lex Fridman (13:01.200)
like, yeah, right.
David Fravor (13:02.200)
I used to joke, I'm going to fly, I'm going to fly jets, I'm going to drop bombs.
Lex Fridman (13:07.120)
And if people that knew me as a kid, they'd be like, yeah, and they'd be like, ah, not
David Fravor (13:10.080)
a chance.
Lex Fridman (13:11.080)
And then when I did, I actually had a, it's a funny story and I'll get to it, I'll finish
David Fravor (13:15.800)
my career.
Lex Fridman (13:16.800)
But I was at my cousin's wedding and we all grew up in the same neighborhood.
David Fravor (13:21.280)
We kind of, they had Italian side of the family.
Lex Fridman (13:24.680)
That's how we grew up.
Lex Fridman (13:25.680)
So it was my house right down the street.
Lex Fridman (13:26.680)
It was my cousin, Chad.
Lex Fridman (13:27.680)
And then right around the corner is my cousin Ray and my aunts and uncles and stuff.
David Fravor (13:31.320)
The guy two doors down from my house, the paper boy in the neighborhood, so they all
David Fravor (13:34.280)
knew me.
Lex Fridman (13:35.280)
And I went to my cousin's wedding and Mr. Race looks at me and he says, David Fravor.
Lex Fridman (13:40.600)
I go, Mr. Race, how you doing?
Lex Fridman (13:42.480)
He goes, you fly jets, Top Gun and all that.
David Fravor (13:44.800)
I go, yes, sir.
Lex Fridman (13:45.800)
He goes, man, I figured you'd be in jail by now.
Lex Fridman (13:48.600)
And it was kind of a, to me, it was a little bit of a badge of honor going on and I kind
Lex Fridman (13:54.040)
of overcame that.
David Fravor (13:55.040)
But...
Lex Fridman (13:56.040)
What do you attribute that to?
Lex Fridman (13:57.200)
So you, I've heard you before and just now say that it's better to be lucky than good
Lex Fridman (14:02.760)
and you talk modestly about just being lucky, but if you were to describe your trajectory
David Fravor (14:13.040)
maybe in a way of advice, like retrospectively, how'd you pull it off to be like, to be truly
Lex Fridman (14:21.160)
a special person?
David Fravor (14:23.120)
The easiest way is one, never, never take no.
Lex Fridman (14:26.680)
Don't let anyone put you down and say you can't do it or those.
David Fravor (14:30.160)
I mean, I knew, I knew what I was capable of inside, you know, and if I really believe
Lex Fridman (14:34.780)
if you want something and you want to do something, then you can achieve it.
David Fravor (14:39.500)
Not in all cases, like if I loved basketball and I really wanted to be in the NBA, there's
David Fravor (14:45.080)
a realism that says I'm five foot eight and I got like a really short vertical leap and
David Fravor (14:49.200)
I'm really not that good at basketball, it's probably not ever going to happen no matter
Lex Fridman (14:51.680)
how hard I try and practice.
David Fravor (14:53.440)
It's just the way it is.
David Fravor (14:54.440)
Or for me to be in the NFL, I'm not fast, you know, I'm not that big, it's just physically
David Fravor (15:02.000)
I'm incapable of doing that.
Lex Fridman (15:04.640)
But there's things that don't really tie to a true physical ability as far as size and
David Fravor (15:09.160)
strength, but it's, it's mental and I'm not saying you have to be a genius and super smart
Lex Fridman (15:15.040)
to be a fighter pilot.
David Fravor (15:16.040)
Matter of fact, you don't.
David Fravor (15:17.420)
It really comes down to the ability to think very quickly, 80% solution is typically good
David Fravor (15:23.480)
enough because if you overthink it, you're, you're behind and then in an air to air fight,
Lex Fridman (15:28.240)
that's what happens.
David Fravor (15:29.240)
People try and overthink it and before you know it, because it's happening so fast, you
David Fravor (15:32.840)
don't have, you can't get to the nth degree, you know, six decimal places, 80% solution
David Fravor (15:37.560)
is good enough.
David Fravor (15:38.560)
You have a really strong gut for the 80% solution, just yeah, I'm a big believer in the 80% solution.
David Fravor (15:42.680)
I love that.
David Fravor (15:43.680)
If you get 80% you can go and then you can always adjust, which is exactly what, like
David Fravor (15:48.280)
if you're fighting in BFM, the 80% solution is it's like a chess game, but it's a really,
David Fravor (15:52.600)
really fast chess game where you go, I'm doing this and then I know that if I do a maneuver,
David Fravor (15:58.040)
if he's going to counter it correctly, he should do a, if he doesn't do a, he does some
David Fravor (16:03.120)
degree less like BCD and then I know how bad his, his error is and then I capitalize.
Lex Fridman (16:09.860)
So my mind, I don't have to be perfect, you know, I don't have to go, I need to go to
Lex Fridman (16:12.800)
47 degrees, nose high.
David Fravor (16:14.560)
If I just kind of get above 40, then I'm good and I can watch how it reacts and then I can
Lex Fridman (16:18.120)
adjust for that.
Lex Fridman (16:19.120)
And you, and you continually work that problem and you chip away because if you start neutral,
David Fravor (16:24.420)
you're just basically chipping away and gaining advantage, advantage, advantage till eventually,
David Fravor (16:29.280)
you know, and if you're really, you know, fighting, you know, just guns only rear quarter
David Fravor (16:33.040)
where you got to get behind the guy, kind of world war II dog fight and type stuff.
David Fravor (16:38.120)
Then it's, it's literally, it's a, it's a very, very fast chess game that happens at,
Lex Fridman (16:43.880)
you know, 400 knots, 300 knots depends.
Lex Fridman (16:46.320)
So to get to be one of the rare individuals that are able to do that, he just had the
Lex Fridman (16:53.160)
dream and didn't take no for an answer.
David Fravor (16:56.040)
Yeah.
David Fravor (16:57.040)
Well, you know, you know, part of it is family, you know, my dad was, I used to call him a
David Fravor (17:02.840)
fire ready aim guy, you know, he'd smack me and then asked me what I did wrong.
Lex Fridman (17:07.680)
Yeah.
David Fravor (17:08.680)
Good parenting.
David Fravor (17:09.680)
Um, back then, you know, I, I joke and people look, cause you know, at times it was kind
David Fravor (17:13.440)
of tough, you know, cause he can be pretty demanding, but on the other side, you know,
Lex Fridman (17:17.440)
I probably needed to be reined in a little bit at times.
David Fravor (17:20.320)
Uh, but then everyone else in my family, you know, my mom was really awesome when I was
Lex Fridman (17:24.240)
a kid.
David Fravor (17:25.240)
Uh, my, uh, my grandfather who is a big, big part of it.
David Fravor (17:29.700)
My mom's dad, uh, who he taught me a lot and you have a question there that we'll talk
David Fravor (17:35.560)
about, uh, about him, but, uh, huge, huge influence.
Lex Fridman (17:39.480)
Very, very positive.
Lex Fridman (17:40.480)
And a lot of the stuff that I do today and decisions are based on things that he taught
Lex Fridman (17:45.720)
me.
David Fravor (17:46.720)
Um, and, uh, you know, and I figured, you know, it was the first funeral I ever went
David Fravor (17:51.320)
to and it was, uh, it was about three miles long and church was overfilling and people
David Fravor (17:57.160)
were out.
Lex Fridman (17:58.160)
It was a big guy, dead serious.
Lex Fridman (18:00.240)
And you go, there's someone asked who died the Pope.
Lex Fridman (18:02.520)
Um, uh, so, so a lot of people love them.
Lex Fridman (18:05.440)
So back to, back to my career question, cause I'm getting down at rabbit hole.
David Fravor (18:09.600)
Uh, no, I, when I was at the, I was going to, I was going to stay in the Marines.
David Fravor (18:13.080)
I really wanted to go, man.
Lex Fridman (18:14.600)
I love the core.
David Fravor (18:15.600)
I think it's, uh, of all services, it's that one, everything is in a ball and they're very,
Lex Fridman (18:20.440)
very professional and it was a great, great organization to join.
David Fravor (18:24.400)
Uh, but I went out to the Nimitz on my, uh, freshman cruise after your freshman year at
Lex Fridman (18:30.120)
the Naval Academy, you go out on a ship and you, you're an enlisted person.
David Fravor (18:33.080)
You get to experience that half when I already was enlisted.
Lex Fridman (18:35.640)
So it was fine with me.
David Fravor (18:36.640)
Because it comes up a lot.
Lex Fridman (18:37.640)
You mind saying what the Nimitz is, what a ship is, what like, yeah.
Lex Fridman (18:41.320)
So Nimitz is, uh, an aircraft carrier.
Lex Fridman (18:43.640)
So it's, uh, four and a half acres of sovereign us territory that floats around the us oceans
David Fravor (18:48.200)
giant thing.
Lex Fridman (18:49.200)
Does it have weapons on it?
David Fravor (18:50.840)
Uh, the air wing is really the weapons.
David Fravor (18:52.780)
It does have defensive weapons, but for the most part it's a giant moving airport is what
David Fravor (18:58.040)
it is.
Lex Fridman (18:59.040)
So I was out there watching the airplanes land and take off.
David Fravor (19:01.760)
Um, and I'm like, Oh, and the squadrons that were out there, one of the squadrons was a
David Fravor (19:06.040)
VF 41 and a 14 squadron, VF 84, uh, an F 14 squadron and then a couple of a six squadrons.
Lex Fridman (19:12.480)
And we actually ended up part pairing up and hanging out with some of the a six pilots
Lex Fridman (19:15.800)
and BNs.
Lex Fridman (19:16.800)
So it was really a neat experience.
Lex Fridman (19:17.800)
And I said, I want to do that.
Lex Fridman (19:20.800)
And the way to do it was to not, to, to go in the Navy because there are Marine squadrons
David Fravor (19:25.160)
that go out to the aircraft carriers, but most of them are land based, you know, to
David Fravor (19:28.680)
support the Marines.
David Fravor (19:29.680)
Cause there are that, that unit, that whole unit, you know, the Marine Corps is that one
David Fravor (19:33.580)
surface has it all.
David Fravor (19:35.480)
And, um, so when I graduated and I got to, uh, you know, I, I worked hard through primary
Lex Fridman (19:41.480)
and that's where, you know, I knew Missy, uh, we were in, actually went through together,
David Fravor (19:45.720)
Missy Cummings, uh, we went through primary together and then, uh, I went to Kingsville.
David Fravor (19:50.120)
We all selected the same time.
Lex Fridman (19:51.200)
I went to Kingsville.
David Fravor (19:52.200)
There was another guy, Scott Weidemeyer, uh, the three of us.
Lex Fridman (19:55.600)
So I went to Kingsville, Scott went to Beeville and Missy went to Meridian.
David Fravor (1:00:01.500)
it.
David Fravor (1:00:02.500)
You know, at the bottom, there's the three at the bottom that are going to struggle and
David Fravor (1:00:06.660)
there's a good chance they won't get out.
Lex Fridman (1:00:08.540)
And if they do get out, they're going to have to work really hard to just maintain kind
David Fravor (1:00:12.740)
of average.
Lex Fridman (1:00:14.120)
Sometimes it's just the way your mind works.
David Fravor (1:00:15.340)
Not everyone is good at everything.
David Fravor (1:00:17.180)
If you took the 94 of them in the middle, they're within one mean deviation of, you
David Fravor (1:00:22.820)
know, it's there.
Lex Fridman (1:00:23.820)
They're all, you know, it's a, the bell curve doesn't look real good.
David Fravor (1:00:27.060)
It's just a big hump and it comes back down and everyone's right there within one mean
Lex Fridman (1:00:30.620)
deviation.
Lex Fridman (1:00:32.300)
And then you have the outliers, usually not on the high side because they're going to
Lex Fridman (1:00:35.260)
get through, but the outliers on the low side that don't make it through.
Lex Fridman (1:00:39.140)
So for the most part, the Navy does a really good job, as does the Air Force, of screening.
Lex Fridman (1:00:43.060)
So now what they do, when I went, you just showed up and you started.
David Fravor (1:00:46.520)
Now what you do is you actually go fly Piper Warriors low wing to see, are you adaptable
Lex Fridman (1:00:51.860)
to this?
Lex Fridman (1:00:52.860)
And there's an evaluation that goes through and then if you hit a certain mark, then you're
Lex Fridman (1:00:57.160)
good to go and then they put you into primary.
David Fravor (1:00:59.220)
It's kind of like a, it's like a precheck, you know, like the preset, the pre SAT to
Lex Fridman (1:01:03.500)
go, Hey, how am I going to do on the SAT?
David Fravor (1:01:05.140)
It's, it's, it's very similar to that, but it's more of a hand skill.
Lex Fridman (1:01:09.100)
Can you adapt?
David Fravor (1:01:10.100)
Because although we live in three dimensions, like this table is not, you know, we, this
David Fravor (1:01:13.860)
is, you know, this is all has depth with all that, uh, where it's really relative to aviation.
David Fravor (1:01:19.040)
We are two dimensional.
Lex Fridman (1:01:20.860)
Very two dimensional.
Lex Fridman (1:01:21.860)
Can you, can you explain that?
Lex Fridman (1:01:23.380)
So our perception is actually more limited than the, than that of an aviator.
David Fravor (1:01:29.020)
Very much.
Lex Fridman (1:01:30.020)
And here's why.
David Fravor (1:01:31.020)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:01:32.020)
So we look at, uh, let's look at a tall building.
David Fravor (1:01:33.380)
Let's look at one world trade center in New York cause that's the, everyone knows what
Lex Fridman (1:01:36.500)
it looks like.
David Fravor (1:01:37.500)
Big tall building.
Lex Fridman (1:01:38.500)
Um, it's what, maybe 1800 feet tall.
David Fravor (1:01:42.540)
Even the Burj Al Dubai, which is like what 20 some hundred feet tall.
Lex Fridman (1:01:45.380)
It's not that big.
Lex Fridman (1:01:46.620)
So a Super Hornet to do a, what a split S is, which is I'm flying, I'm just going to
David Fravor (1:01:51.380)
roll the airplane upside down and then I'm going to do basically a C the letter C I'm
David Fravor (1:01:56.060)
going to go in the top and out the bottom.
Lex Fridman (1:01:58.180)
So and I'm just against basically a vertical displacement of the airplane.
Lex Fridman (1:02:01.240)
So I'm going from high to low.
David Fravor (1:02:03.780)
It's very, very tight and it doesn't in about roughly about 2,500 feet, give or take a little.
Lex Fridman (1:02:08.780)
So you go, that is, that is a really tight vertical turn.
Lex Fridman (1:02:12.540)
Yeah.
David Fravor (1:02:13.540)
For example, the a six in order to do that was about 9,000 feet.
Lex Fridman (1:02:17.180)
And we look at a building that's 2000 feet high and think that is tall.
David Fravor (1:02:20.500)
Right.
Lex Fridman (1:02:21.500)
All right.
Lex Fridman (1:02:22.500)
So in, in aviation sense, when you're starting to do vertical displacement numbers going
David Fravor (1:02:25.920)
from 35,000 feet down to 20,000 feet in a matter of seconds and maneuvering the airplane,
David Fravor (1:02:30.780)
because the human brain thinks we really are.
Lex Fridman (1:02:33.700)
We like to be flat.
David Fravor (1:02:34.700)
I see what you mean.
Lex Fridman (1:02:35.700)
We think 2d.
Lex Fridman (1:02:36.700)
So if I'm fighting, how you really get an advantage when you're fighting another airplane
David Fravor (1:02:40.780)
is to work in the vertical, because most people will do like one move in the vertical and
David Fravor (1:02:45.380)
then they want to start to flatten out because that's where we're comfortable.
Lex Fridman (1:02:47.940)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:02:48.940)
So they're profound.
Lex Fridman (1:02:49.940)
Do you still think in like stacks of 2d layers or no, or do you, do you truly start to think
David Fravor (1:02:55.460)
in that third dimension, like the rich 3d world of, uh, like of, of fighting that can,
Lex Fridman (1:03:03.860)
do you start to actually be able to really experience the 3d nature?
David Fravor (1:03:09.220)
You do because you have to project where you're going to be.
Lex Fridman (1:03:11.200)
So you have to know the performance of the airplane knowing that, Hey, if I do this maneuver
David Fravor (1:03:14.780)
that I am going to go, it's, it's kind of like when I, when I talk about when we were
Lex Fridman (1:03:18.660)
chasing the Tic Tac.
Lex Fridman (1:03:20.100)
So the Tic Tacs coming up and I'm at about, you know, and I've been doing this for at
Lex Fridman (1:03:23.700)
the time, 16 years.
Lex Fridman (1:03:25.660)
So I'm looking and I'm going, Hey, I'm here.
Lex Fridman (1:03:27.880)
He's there on the other side of the circle.
David Fravor (1:03:29.380)
I'm going to do a vertical displacement.
Lex Fridman (1:03:30.820)
I'm going to go like this.
David Fravor (1:03:31.820)
I'm going to cut across the circle and I'm not going to him.
Lex Fridman (1:03:33.780)
I'm going out in front of him.
David Fravor (1:03:34.780)
I'm going over here because I know that by the time I get through this maneuver, that's
Lex Fridman (1:03:37.900)
where he's going to be.
Lex Fridman (1:03:38.900)
And I'm trying to, you know, basically join up on him.
Lex Fridman (1:03:40.980)
But I also had to look at it to go, do I have enough altitude to do this?
David Fravor (1:03:44.820)
Because what I did before here and I do this, I'm going to end up over here and he's going
Lex Fridman (1:03:47.540)
to be above me.
Lex Fridman (1:03:48.540)
And then, you know, I have to get that energy back to get up to him.
Lex Fridman (1:03:51.620)
And when you're doing a max performance, it's a trade.
Lex Fridman (1:03:54.540)
So you have, this is, this is really important when you're, when you're fighting airplanes
Lex Fridman (1:03:59.120)
and you're really max performing.
Lex Fridman (1:04:01.240)
So when you go to an air show and you see the air demo, he's literally playing with
Lex Fridman (1:04:05.180)
it.
Lex Fridman (1:04:06.180)
He's got a finite amount of energy, right?
David Fravor (1:04:07.380)
He can add some with the motors and stuff, but you're, what you're really doing is it's
David Fravor (1:04:10.220)
a trade off and you can trade off kinetic energy, speed for altitude, which gives you
Lex Fridman (1:04:15.160)
potential energy.
David Fravor (1:04:16.640)
The other piece is, is I can trade some of that kinetic energy for performance.
David Fravor (1:04:21.020)
Because I know if I do a nice, easy turn, the airplane will make it at what doesn't
David Fravor (1:04:24.320)
bleed energy.
Lex Fridman (1:04:25.620)
But I know if I do a real tight, that 2,500 foot split S, that it's going to cost me energy.
Lex Fridman (1:04:30.080)
So if I enter the split S at 200 knots and I do it right, I'm going to come out at the
Lex Fridman (1:04:34.040)
bottom at probably 200 knots.
David Fravor (1:04:35.540)
Although I lost 2,500 feet of potential energy, I converted that to that, to kinetic and that
David Fravor (1:04:41.340)
kinetic was transitioned and bled off the wings in order for me to get that high performance
David Fravor (1:04:45.900)
turn.
Lex Fridman (1:04:46.900)
So you've got to constantly evaluate where you're at and it's your overall energy package.
Lex Fridman (1:04:51.500)
So you can have a guy that's behind you that looks like he's going to kill you.
Lex Fridman (1:04:55.360)
But if this jet is at 400 knots and this jet is at 110 knots, this jet's just going to
David Fravor (1:04:59.780)
pull away, drive around and kill him in about 30 seconds.
David Fravor (1:05:03.820)
It's overall energy package and that's that you've got to be constantly evaluating where
David Fravor (1:05:08.340)
you're at.
Lex Fridman (1:05:09.340)
And this is that 80% solution.
Lex Fridman (1:05:10.340)
Can I afford to do this or not?
Lex Fridman (1:05:11.340)
Yes, no.
Lex Fridman (1:05:12.340)
And you have literally a split second to make the decision.
Lex Fridman (1:05:13.340)
That's the most incredible dance of human decision making.
David Fravor (1:05:18.060)
It's just incredible.
David Fravor (1:05:19.060)
I know a million people want me to talk about Tic Tac and I definitely will, but let me
David Fravor (1:05:23.260)
ask the one last ridiculous, subjective question.
Lex Fridman (1:05:29.820)
What's the greatest plane ever made in history?
David Fravor (1:05:35.740)
You don't get to like...
David Fravor (1:05:36.740)
From Pure Speed, I would say SR71, I think it's an engineering marvel that was actually
David Fravor (1:05:40.540)
developed in the fifties by Kelly Johnson, Skunk Works.
David Fravor (1:05:44.220)
For what that was able to do, and then when you get into history of it, you know how they
David Fravor (1:05:46.980)
actually built...
David Fravor (1:05:49.240)
The CIA actually made like six companies in order to buy the titanium from Russia to bring
David Fravor (1:05:54.480)
it back and build an airplane out of titanium that we would fly over Russia.
Lex Fridman (1:05:58.740)
To me, that's an incredible...
David Fravor (1:06:00.700)
Engineering marvel.
Lex Fridman (1:06:01.700)
I think that like the X15, you know...
David Fravor (1:06:03.700)
By the way, the SR71 still holds the speed record of any plane as far as I can understand.
Lex Fridman (1:06:13.260)
Yeah.
David Fravor (1:06:14.260)
What's funny when you get into it is it's...
Lex Fridman (1:06:15.660)
Remember, fast is relative.
David Fravor (1:06:18.260)
When I say that, I mean, so if you're going 3000 miles an hour, a hundred feet above the
David Fravor (1:06:24.260)
ground, you're going 3000 miles an hour through, you know, that's how fast you're going.
David Fravor (1:06:30.220)
When you get up to altitude, there's an indicated airspeed and there's, you know, your ground
Lex Fridman (1:06:34.860)
speed.
Lex Fridman (1:06:35.860)
So your indicated airspeed is really how fast the air is going past your airplane.
Lex Fridman (1:06:38.900)
Well, the air is so thin up there, you may only be showing like 300 knots.
Lex Fridman (1:06:44.820)
But at 300 knots, you're really doing 2,500 miles an hour over the ground.
Lex Fridman (1:06:48.820)
So you know, like we would take the airplanes up to 50,000 feet when we had to do full the
David Fravor (1:06:53.780)
maintenance check flights on them.
Lex Fridman (1:06:55.500)
So when you're doing 200, you know, in some odd knots, it's actually slow for the airplane.
David Fravor (1:07:00.500)
It's, you know, you're getting, you know, it's kind of like, it's not, you know, there's
Lex Fridman (1:07:04.060)
maneuvering speeds.
David Fravor (1:07:05.100)
You know that if I hit a certain speed in a Super Hornet, that I have the full capability
Lex Fridman (1:07:08.980)
of the airfoil.
David Fravor (1:07:09.980)
If I'm below that speed, I'm going to stall the airfoil before I get to the maximum G.
Lex Fridman (1:07:13.540)
Okay?
Lex Fridman (1:07:15.620)
So when you look at something like that, you go, well, is it really going fast?
David Fravor (1:07:19.940)
When you look at an SR71 that's flying upwards of, you know, 70 plus thousand feet, the air's
Lex Fridman (1:07:24.500)
so thin, you know, just like the X15, you can get to a much higher speed, but the relative
Lex Fridman (1:07:29.500)
speed of the air going over you is actually relatively low.
Lex Fridman (1:07:32.700)
So the stresses on the airframe are not like they would be if you were down low.
Lex Fridman (1:07:36.260)
But because you're going fast to get enough air over your pedostatic system to show that
David Fravor (1:07:40.140)
you're going 300 knots, you're screaming.
David Fravor (1:07:43.380)
I mean, the fastest I ever got was, I was with the, well, soon to be Vice Admiral White.
Lex Fridman (1:07:49.000)
So we had taken a check flight and I got it up to 1.78.
David Fravor (1:07:53.940)
I got a Super Hornet up to Mach 1.78 and it was, and we were just right by Pebble Beach
David Fravor (1:07:57.740)
too.
Lex Fridman (1:07:58.740)
And then...
Lex Fridman (1:07:59.740)
What's that feel like?
Lex Fridman (1:08:00.740)
Or is it just like...
David Fravor (1:08:01.740)
When you get that fast, it started, to me, it got a little bit weird because you realize
Lex Fridman (1:08:04.740)
in your brain, and I did, that there's no out.
David Fravor (1:08:08.220)
If something happens, I can't eject.
Lex Fridman (1:08:10.500)
The ejection would kill me.
Lex Fridman (1:08:11.700)
Isn't that kind of liberating in a way?
Lex Fridman (1:08:13.740)
Or no?
David Fravor (1:08:14.740)
Okay, maybe not.
Lex Fridman (1:08:15.740)
You always want to push the limit.
David Fravor (1:08:17.660)
You know, it's like how fast, I could have got it going faster.
David Fravor (1:08:20.180)
It was literally still accelerating when I stopped, but I had, it was fuel limited and
David Fravor (1:08:24.260)
space limited because I'm off the coast of California, Big Sur, and I'm going and I can
Lex Fridman (1:08:29.740)
see Pebble Beach out in the distance, the whole Monterey Peninsula.
David Fravor (1:08:32.820)
You're just going fast.
Lex Fridman (1:08:34.220)
And you're doing almost 18 miles a minute.
David Fravor (1:08:36.780)
I mean, you're screaming.
Lex Fridman (1:08:38.340)
Yeah.
David Fravor (1:08:39.340)
I mean, that's...
Lex Fridman (1:08:40.340)
And then you have to turn...
David Fravor (1:08:41.340)
Well, the airplane didn't have anything on it.
Lex Fridman (1:08:42.460)
It was a slicked off Super Hornet, so it was basically just the airplane.
David Fravor (1:08:45.060)
No pylons, no pods, no nothing.
Lex Fridman (1:08:47.500)
And then we had to get it turned around because we got to go to the exit point for the area.
Lex Fridman (1:08:50.460)
And I'm trying to get it down below to subsonic.
Lex Fridman (1:08:53.620)
And there's a bunch of things that are disabled, like the speed brakes that normally we pop
David Fravor (1:08:56.980)
out when you're going that fast, they don't, because the Super Hornet really doesn't have
Lex Fridman (1:08:59.860)
speed brakes, it deforms the flight controls.
David Fravor (1:09:03.700)
They don't function.
Lex Fridman (1:09:04.700)
So you really, you're trying to maneuver and when you're going that fast, you can't turn
David Fravor (1:09:08.540)
because a 7G turn at 1.5 Mach is a pretty big turn.
Lex Fridman (1:09:14.420)
So it's just, it's crazy.
David Fravor (1:09:16.300)
It's incredible that a human can do this and a human can engineer the system which allows
Lex Fridman (1:09:21.980)
another human to control that system.
David Fravor (1:09:24.940)
To me, I think it's a great experience.
Lex Fridman (1:09:29.460)
Was it sad to see the SR71 go?
David Fravor (1:09:31.660)
I think it was during your career.
Lex Fridman (1:09:33.260)
I mean, do you guys romanticize the different planes?
David Fravor (1:09:37.660)
We would see it flying.
David Fravor (1:09:38.660)
When I was flying Hornets, because West Coast flies and it's called R2508, which covers
David Fravor (1:09:44.060)
the Navy China Lake area and Edwards.
Lex Fridman (1:09:47.240)
It's a huge area.
David Fravor (1:09:48.240)
It's actually, I think, we had a guy from Switzerland come out because they had Hornets
Lex Fridman (1:09:51.680)
and he's like, this is bigger than our whole country, because it's a pretty big area in
David Fravor (1:09:55.020)
California that you fly, but you would see the SR71s, they had a loop because NASA was
David Fravor (1:09:59.580)
flying them out of Palmdale and they would take off and they'd go up towards Washington
David Fravor (1:10:03.380)
State and Montana and they'd do a loop.
Lex Fridman (1:10:05.540)
So you'd see them coming back down, they'd descend above 60,000, they'd get contrails,
David Fravor (1:10:10.420)
the white lines behind airplanes, they'd come down and hit the tanker and then they'd go
Lex Fridman (1:10:13.580)
back up.
Lex Fridman (1:10:14.580)
So it was cool to be able to see them in my lifetime flying.
Lex Fridman (1:10:18.380)
But I think with money, age, the advent of satellites, because they're everywhere now,
David Fravor (1:10:27.980)
I mean, you've got commercial companies putting satellites up, how much of that need was really
Lex Fridman (1:10:32.780)
there?
David Fravor (1:10:33.780)
Because you've got to remember when those things started in the 50s, Sputnik wasn't
Lex Fridman (1:10:35.460)
flying around.
David Fravor (1:10:37.380)
It was the U2 and the SR71 that were out there doing that work.
Lex Fridman (1:10:41.380)
So at the time it was needed, if you think about it really, it was an incredible feat
David Fravor (1:10:45.740)
of aviation for that time.
David Fravor (1:10:47.220)
I mean, literally we have yet to pass that and then you also ask, well, is there a need
Lex Fridman (1:10:51.340)
to pass that?
David Fravor (1:10:52.340)
I go, I don't know, we got stuff in space, so do we need to make an airplane that goes
Lex Fridman (1:10:55.940)
that fast?
David Fravor (1:10:56.940)
I think the next one is you get into the hypersonics where you don't have to put a person in,
David Fravor (1:11:00.620)
it does all kinds of crazy stuff.
Lex Fridman (1:11:01.780)
And all the work with automation, all that kind of stuff.
Lex Fridman (1:11:05.380)
So one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you is you happen to be one of, at least in
David Fravor (1:11:11.260)
my view, one of the most credible witnesses in history of somebody who's witnessed a UFO
David Fravor (1:11:19.460)
literally an identified flying object.
Lex Fridman (1:11:23.540)
And not only witnessed, but got to, how do you put it?
Lex Fridman (1:11:27.900)
Like chase it, essentially?
Lex Fridman (1:11:28.900)
Chase it.
David Fravor (1:11:29.900)
Chase it.
Lex Fridman (1:11:31.420)
So let me just lay out, I think it's easier than you telling the story.
David Fravor (1:11:36.060)
Maybe me and my dumb simpleton ways trying to explain the stories, I understand it.
Lex Fridman (1:11:41.260)
And then maybe you can correct me.
Lex Fridman (1:11:43.540)
So on November 10th, 2004, the USS Princeton, which is one of the carriers.
Lex Fridman (1:11:53.000)
That's a cruiser.
David Fravor (1:11:54.000)
It's a cruiser.
Lex Fridman (1:11:55.000)
It's a cruiser.
Lex Fridman (1:11:56.000)
So you can't land on a.
Lex Fridman (1:11:57.000)
No, helicopter, it has a helicopter pad on the back.
David Fravor (1:11:59.500)
Gotcha.
Lex Fridman (1:12:00.500)
And it has weapons on it.
David Fravor (1:12:01.500)
Okay, gotcha.
Lex Fridman (1:12:02.500)
It shoots the missiles up.
Lex Fridman (1:12:03.500)
But it has a nice radar.
Lex Fridman (1:12:04.500)
It has an incredible spy one system phased array, four panels.
Lex Fridman (1:12:08.460)
So it looks in quadrants.
Lex Fridman (1:12:09.940)
Perfect.
Lex Fridman (1:12:10.940)
So they started noticing on November 10th that there is a few objects flying around
David Fravor (1:12:16.460)
at 28,000 feet with speed of what I guess is considered a low speed of 120 miles an
David Fravor (1:12:22.780)
hour.
Lex Fridman (1:12:23.780)
Don't know what that's in knots, but on the coast of California.
Lex Fridman (1:12:28.180)
And they kept detecting these objects for just about a week.
David Fravor (1:12:32.140)
Then comes in like your part of the story, which is on November 14th from the, I guess
David Fravor (1:12:42.300)
it's from the USS Nimitz.
David Fravor (1:12:45.300)
You flew and witnessed a 40 foot long white Tic Tac shaped object with no wings flying
David Fravor (1:12:54.020)
in ways you've never thought possible.
Lex Fridman (1:12:56.820)
And in some interview somewhere, you said, I think it was not from this world.
Lex Fridman (1:13:01.940)
So there's a mysterious aspect to this object, to this entire situation.
Lex Fridman (1:13:07.660)
There's videos involved.
David Fravor (1:13:09.460)
The video of a flare forward looking infrared receiver has also the visible lights.
Lex Fridman (1:13:20.060)
You can switch as a TV mode.
Lex Fridman (1:13:23.060)
So that gives you visible light and then as an IR mode.
Lex Fridman (1:13:27.100)
And Chad Underwood recorded that video.
Lex Fridman (1:13:30.300)
And those are the videos that were released by the Pentagon later.
David Fravor (1:13:33.300)
One of the three videos, the two other videos, go fast and gimbal were recorded in 2000 something
David Fravor (1:13:42.460)
14 and 15 on the East coast of the United States that had different kinds of objects,
Lex Fridman (1:13:50.840)
but they're weird in the same kind of way in terms of at least the videos and the experiences
David Fravor (1:13:57.840)
that people have described were similar in the degree of weirdness.
Lex Fridman (1:14:03.980)
But the differences is actually on the East coast of 2014 case, very few people have spoken
David Fravor (1:14:12.180)
about it.
Lex Fridman (1:14:13.300)
And even in your situation, very few people have spoken about it.
Lex Fridman (1:14:16.760)
So there's a mystery to it, but it's in some sense, it's a quite simple story without much
Lex Fridman (1:14:24.500)
resolution to the mystery.
Lex Fridman (1:14:26.780)
And it's fascinating.
Lex Fridman (1:14:29.060)
And there's a lot of opinions.
David Fravor (1:14:31.580)
There's division of opinions because it's a mysterious, I mean, it's truly is a UFO
Lex Fridman (1:14:37.300)
in the sense that UAP, unidentified aerial phenomena.
Lex Fridman (1:14:45.420)
So can you maybe correct me on any of the things I've gotten wrong, elaborate on some
Lex Fridman (1:14:51.080)
key things and describe that experience in general.
Lex Fridman (1:14:54.140)
So here's what I know.
Lex Fridman (1:14:55.220)
So yeah, we went out on our mission to go train and they canceled the mission and they
David Fravor (1:15:03.540)
sent us down.
Lex Fridman (1:15:04.540)
There's all kinds of rumors out here.
David Fravor (1:15:05.540)
There's all kinds of, after this has come out, so originally it was the four of us.
Lex Fridman (1:15:09.740)
There's two jets, two people in each jet, they're F18Fs, okay?
David Fravor (1:15:15.320)
There is no video from our event.
Lex Fridman (1:15:17.380)
It was all four sets of eyeballs staring at this thing.
Lex Fridman (1:15:19.740)
And then when we came back and told it when Chad and his pilot took off, that's when Chad
Lex Fridman (1:15:24.160)
got the video of it.
Lex Fridman (1:15:25.300)
And we're like, that's it.
Lex Fridman (1:15:26.580)
That's exactly it.
David Fravor (1:15:27.580)
That's it.
Lex Fridman (1:15:28.580)
So when you say eyeballs, you mean literally your eyes are seeing a thing?
David Fravor (1:15:32.980)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:15:33.980)
So as we're flying out, we get vectored.
David Fravor (1:15:35.780)
They come up and tell us, hey, we're going to cancel training.
Lex Fridman (1:15:37.380)
This is a USS Princeton.
Lex Fridman (1:15:38.580)
So this is a Aegis Cruiser.
Lex Fridman (1:15:40.360)
So we're talking to one controller who is like, hey, sir, first you ask what ordinance
David Fravor (1:15:47.580)
we have on board.
Lex Fridman (1:15:48.580)
And I laugh because we don't carry live ordinance in training typically because bad stuff happens.
David Fravor (1:15:52.300)
Usually someone forgets to put a switch on and then the missile comes off and hits a
Lex Fridman (1:15:55.300)
good airplane and it's not good.
Lex Fridman (1:15:58.100)
So we had what's called a Catam 9, which is really just a blue two with the AIM 9 seeker
Lex Fridman (1:16:02.060)
on the front of it, which is an IR missile.
Lex Fridman (1:16:05.460)
So there's only two ways to get it off.
Lex Fridman (1:16:06.660)
You can beat it off with a sledgehammer.
David Fravor (1:16:07.900)
You can take this thing and you put a wrench in it and it unlocks the lugs and pulls the
Lex Fridman (1:16:11.380)
lugs back in that hold it on.
David Fravor (1:16:13.180)
When it really fires the impulse from the engine, actually throws the lugs forward and
Lex Fridman (1:16:16.860)
breaks that release and it comes off down the rail.
David Fravor (1:16:19.340)
That's how it works.
Lex Fridman (1:16:21.300)
So they said, hey, well, we have real world tasking.
Lex Fridman (1:16:24.020)
So as we're going out, my wingman, the other pilot, she maneuvers the airplane to the left
Lex Fridman (1:16:30.380)
hand side of me.
Lex Fridman (1:16:31.700)
So she's kind of stepped up like this and I'll use your mic box to start.
Lex Fridman (1:16:36.580)
So as we're going out, they're calling ranges are called bra calls, bearing range and altitude.
Lex Fridman (1:16:40.220)
And they're telling us, hey, it's at 40 miles or 50 miles and 40 miles and 30 miles.
Lex Fridman (1:16:44.980)
So they're saying, hey, two, seven, zero, 30, 20,000, that's all they say.
Lex Fridman (1:16:49.880)
So we got our radars and we had to mechanically scan radars at the time, APG 73.
Lex Fridman (1:16:55.320)
Good piece of gear, APG 79, new one's way better.
Lex Fridman (1:16:58.340)
But anyway.
Lex Fridman (1:16:59.340)
And I apologize if I interrupt the story, hopefully it's useful, but they're telling
David Fravor (1:17:04.060)
you a location of a thing that you should look at.
Lex Fridman (1:17:06.780)
They're telling us they have a contact on their radar.
David Fravor (1:17:08.580)
They don't know what it is.
Lex Fridman (1:17:09.580)
They just have a blip.
David Fravor (1:17:10.580)
They have a little blip.
David Fravor (1:17:11.580)
Well, they've been watching these things and what he told me is they had been looking at
David Fravor (1:17:14.540)
these things as we're driving.
Lex Fridman (1:17:15.540)
He says, sir, we've been tracking these things for about two weeks.
David Fravor (1:17:17.300)
That's we had been at sea for two weeks.
Lex Fridman (1:17:18.900)
This is the first time we've had planes airborne.
David Fravor (1:17:21.380)
We want you to go see what these are.
Lex Fridman (1:17:22.700)
Gotcha.
Lex Fridman (1:17:23.700)
So they kind of interrupt the mission to say, check it out.
Lex Fridman (1:17:26.980)
That's exactly it.
Lex Fridman (1:17:27.980)
So we start driving out there and as we get down to, he's going, you know, 20 miles, 15
Lex Fridman (1:17:34.020)
miles, 10 miles.
Lex Fridman (1:17:35.020)
And then you get to a point where they call merge plot, which means we are inside of the
Lex Fridman (1:17:38.620)
resolution cell of the radar because radars don't see everything there.
Lex Fridman (1:17:42.920)
So they have a range and they have an azimuth resolution, right?
Lex Fridman (1:17:46.260)
So and it's basically think of a little cube so they can, and the whole sky is made of
David Fravor (1:17:50.140)
all these little cubes and they're looking.
Lex Fridman (1:17:52.440)
So if you're inside a cube with something and you're both inside the same little cube,
David Fravor (1:17:56.320)
then the radar can only see one thing.
Lex Fridman (1:17:57.780)
Does that make sense?
David Fravor (1:17:58.780)
Yep.
Lex Fridman (1:17:59.780)
Yep.
Lex Fridman (1:18:00.780)
So they call merge plot.
David Fravor (1:18:01.780)
Well, when we say merge plot to us, it means he's right around, something's around you,
David Fravor (1:18:05.340)
get your head out.
Lex Fridman (1:18:06.340)
So we're not looking at radar scopes anymore and the wizos, the wizos can look, but everyone
David Fravor (1:18:09.700)
it's heads out.
Lex Fridman (1:18:10.700)
When they say merge plot, you're done looking at your displays inside.
David Fravor (1:18:13.740)
You're doing this and you're trying to find it.
Lex Fridman (1:18:15.940)
So as we look out to the right and you look high and low, because he could be anywhere
David Fravor (1:18:20.380)
from the surface all the way up.
David Fravor (1:18:21.820)
Now keep in mind the ship is like probably 60 miles away, so it can't see the surface
Lex Fridman (1:18:26.180)
and you can do your standard radar horizon calculation and go, hey, it's the thing is
David Fravor (1:18:31.220)
40 feet off the water, the panel, can he really see, you know, there are radars that can see
David Fravor (1:18:35.780)
around the curve, but let's just say that it can't at this time.
Lex Fridman (1:18:40.340)
So you go, is it, you know, where is it at?
Lex Fridman (1:18:42.820)
So as we're looking around, we see, now this is a, it's a clear day.
Lex Fridman (1:18:47.660)
There's no clouds and there's no whitecaps.
David Fravor (1:18:51.420)
It's just a calm, it's actually a perfect day.
David Fravor (1:18:54.460)
If you own a sailboat, it was that five to 10 knots of wind and you just want to kind
David Fravor (1:18:57.940)
of go out there and you're not going to get beat up and have whitewater coming out.
Lex Fridman (1:19:01.180)
It was the perfect day to own a sailboat.
Lex Fridman (1:19:03.020)
How many miles out do you see?
Lex Fridman (1:19:04.460)
Like seven, like you see just, it's a clear day.
David Fravor (1:19:07.380)
It's 50, it's unrestricted visibility.
Lex Fridman (1:19:08.900)
You can see literally all the way to the horizon.
David Fravor (1:19:10.540)
It's just clear.
Lex Fridman (1:19:11.720)
It's nothing.
Lex Fridman (1:19:12.720)
And we're basically off the coast.
David Fravor (1:19:13.820)
If you look at a map and you go San Diego and then inside of Mexico, we're kind of in
David Fravor (1:19:17.940)
between that.
Lex Fridman (1:19:18.940)
And we're probably about, by the time this all hits, we're price, I don't know, 80, 100,
David Fravor (1:19:25.900)
I don't know, but somewhere out, it's pretty far off the coast, but from 20,000 feet, you'd
Lex Fridman (1:19:30.500)
be amazed.
David Fravor (1:19:31.500)
You can do the calculation.
David Fravor (1:19:32.500)
You can see stuff, you know, you'll see land 50 miles away, you know, you can see, you
David Fravor (1:19:35.700)
know, and when you're looking at a continent, it's really easy to see you're not looking
Lex Fridman (1:19:39.460)
at an island.
David Fravor (1:19:40.460)
I mean, you're looking at Mexico.
Lex Fridman (1:19:41.460)
And you can see on the whitecaps in the water, if there is any.
David Fravor (1:19:44.460)
Oh yeah, they're easy.
Lex Fridman (1:19:45.460)
Yeah.
David Fravor (1:19:46.460)
For us, we look at it because we know if it's natural wind or, so if it's a really whitecap
Lex Fridman (1:19:50.860)
windy day, then the ships just kind of barely be moving when we land on it.
David Fravor (1:19:53.660)
It makes it actually easier.
David Fravor (1:19:55.540)
If the ship has to move or it's got a big weight because it has to make its own wind
David Fravor (1:19:58.540)
when we land, which is the day that it was this day, you go, oh, okay.
Lex Fridman (1:20:02.100)
And it creates what's called, we call the burble, but when the air flows across the
David Fravor (1:20:05.420)
flight deck, it drops behind the ship, you know, and then it kicks back up.
Lex Fridman (1:20:09.740)
So when you're coming board to land, it's going to make you go up a little bit and then
David Fravor (1:20:12.420)
you're going to fall and you got to anticipate that to stay on glideslope.
Lex Fridman (1:20:15.740)
So we're pretty conscious of what's going on out there with the waves and the wind.
Lex Fridman (1:20:21.840)
So there's no waves, there's no wind, there's no whitecaps, and we look down and we see
Lex Fridman (1:20:26.540)
whitewater.
Lex Fridman (1:20:28.420)
So if you put a piece of land, a seamount below the surface, like, you know, even 20
Lex Fridman (1:20:33.420)
feet below the surface, it's big enough.
David Fravor (1:20:35.220)
As the waves come in, you know, waves have height and length.
David Fravor (1:20:38.900)
When they come in, that's what happens on the shore, when a wave comes in, it hits and
David Fravor (1:20:42.140)
then it starts to collapse and it pushes the wave height up because it can't go anymore
Lex Fridman (1:20:45.980)
and then it breaks over the top and that's where you get the weight.
Lex Fridman (1:20:49.520)
So what happens is at sea, when you get a seamount, you'll see stuff come in, the wave
Lex Fridman (1:20:53.220)
will crash and you'll get whitewater.
David Fravor (1:20:55.180)
You can go out when it's high tide in any one of the coasts, you can go out here off
David Fravor (1:20:59.800)
of Boston and go, hey, at low tide, I can see those rocks and at high tide, I can't
David Fravor (1:21:03.420)
see the rocks are covered, but there'll be whitewater around those rocks.
Lex Fridman (1:21:05.660)
You'll be able to tell there's something underneath the surface.
Lex Fridman (1:21:07.500)
Does that make sense?
Lex Fridman (1:21:08.500)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:21:09.500)
So that's what it was.
David Fravor (1:21:10.500)
We don't see an object because there's all kinds of, oh, they saw another craft below
David Fravor (1:21:14.500)
the wave.
Lex Fridman (1:21:15.500)
We didn't see anything below the water.
David Fravor (1:21:16.740)
We just saw whitewater.
Lex Fridman (1:21:18.180)
But the whitewater, and I like to shape it, you can say it was a cross.
David Fravor (1:21:21.100)
I say it's about the size of a 737.
Lex Fridman (1:21:23.020)
So it looks like if you took a 737, put it about 15, 20 feet below the water so the wave
David Fravor (1:21:27.860)
is breaking over the top and you're going to get whitewater where the plane is at, you'd
Lex Fridman (1:21:30.820)
see this kind of shape.
Lex Fridman (1:21:32.520)
So it looks like a cross.
Lex Fridman (1:21:34.940)
So as we're looking down off the right side, the backseater in the other airplane, Jim,
David Fravor (1:21:39.420)
says this is that talking in partials again.
Lex Fridman (1:21:41.500)
He says, hey, Skipper, do you?
Lex Fridman (1:21:43.180)
And that's about what he gets out of his mouth.
Lex Fridman (1:21:44.700)
And I go, what the hell is that?
David Fravor (1:21:47.100)
In a nice way.
Lex Fridman (1:21:48.100)
Do you see that essentially is what he's saying?
Lex Fridman (1:21:49.100)
So we see the whitewater and that's what draws our eyes down there.
Lex Fridman (1:21:51.700)
Otherwise we'd have never seen it.
Lex Fridman (1:21:53.140)
So we see this whitewater.
Lex Fridman (1:21:54.140)
I would have loved to see the look on your face when you see that.
Lex Fridman (1:21:56.460)
And then we see this little white tic tac because we're about 20,000 feet above it and
David Fravor (1:22:01.020)
it's doing, it's going basically north, south, and then east, west, north, and it's abrupt.
David Fravor (1:22:05.740)
It's very abrupt.
Lex Fridman (1:22:06.740)
So it's not like a helicopter, if a helicopter is going sideways and it goes once, it's going
David Fravor (1:22:11.740)
sideways left and it goes right, what it'll do is it'll go, it's got a speed, it slows
Lex Fridman (1:22:15.220)
down because there's inertia and it stops and then it goes back the other way.
David Fravor (1:22:18.760)
This thing's not, it's like left, right, left, right with no.
Lex Fridman (1:22:22.100)
So moving in ways that doesn't feel intuitive to you of the things you've seen in the past.
Lex Fridman (1:22:28.100)
So as a pilot, the first thing you think is it's a helicopter, right?
Lex Fridman (1:22:31.980)
So you go, oh, what is, cause when we see it's moving, we're like, oh, helicopter.
Lex Fridman (1:22:36.800)
So the first thing you look for to see if it's a helicopter when they're doing that,
David Fravor (1:22:39.780)
because usually when they get down there towards that 50 feet, you'll get rotor wash.
David Fravor (1:22:43.820)
You see it in the movies when the helicopter's by the water, it kicks, the water comes up
Lex Fridman (1:22:47.020)
the sides cause the downdraft, you know, like a thunderstorm will do that.
David Fravor (1:22:50.380)
It pushes the air down and then it has to come up the sides.
Lex Fridman (1:22:53.380)
So you see it and you go, well, there's no, there's no rotor wash.
Lex Fridman (1:22:56.700)
What is that thing?
Lex Fridman (1:22:58.420)
So by this time we're driving around.
Lex Fridman (1:22:59.820)
So as we're, if we were at the six oclock, we're driving around towards that nine oclock
Lex Fridman (1:23:02.700)
position and we're just watching this thing.
Lex Fridman (1:23:04.340)
And it's just, it's still pointing north, south, and it's going left, right, and it's
Lex Fridman (1:23:07.460)
kind of moving around the object.
Lex Fridman (1:23:09.460)
And if it had, if I had to say it biased itself, it was biased towards the bottom half.
Lex Fridman (1:23:13.360)
So if you've got the east, west, and then the north, south kind of across, it's hanging
David Fravor (1:23:17.260)
out on the southern thing that's hanging out.
David Fravor (1:23:18.820)
It's just kind of moving around up, down, left, and it's crossing over it and it's going
David Fravor (1:23:21.380)
up.
Lex Fridman (1:23:22.380)
It's just kind of, so now we're like, what the hell is that?
Lex Fridman (1:23:25.420)
So then I go, hey, I'm going to go check it out.
Lex Fridman (1:23:28.900)
And the other pilot says, I'm going to stay up here.
Lex Fridman (1:23:31.260)
And I said, yeah, stay up high.
Lex Fridman (1:23:32.860)
Because now we get, we get a different perspective.
Lex Fridman (1:23:35.360)
So she's up here and I'm down here as I'm descending.
Lex Fridman (1:23:38.880)
She can watch, because right now all I'm watching is the Tic Tac.
David Fravor (1:23:43.060)
She can watch me and the Tic Tac.
Lex Fridman (1:23:44.660)
So she gets a God's eye view of everything that's going on, which is really important.
David Fravor (1:23:47.740)
You know, you can hear people say it's high cover, whatever.
David Fravor (1:23:50.540)
She's watching me, which is, it's perfect as the story goes on, because it gives us
David Fravor (1:23:55.620)
two perspectives, you know, of a perspective that's about 8,000 feet above us when that
Lex Fridman (1:24:00.300)
thing disappears.
Lex Fridman (1:24:01.300)
And they don't, you know, because if it's just like, oh, I lost it and they go, no,
Lex Fridman (1:24:04.340)
it's over to the right.
David Fravor (1:24:05.340)
We can still see it.
Lex Fridman (1:24:06.340)
We all lost it at the same time.
Lex Fridman (1:24:07.860)
So as we come down, we get to about 12 oclock and I'm descending and it's an easy descent.
David Fravor (1:24:11.060)
I'm doing about 300 knots, which is a really good airspeed for the airplane for maneuvering
David Fravor (1:24:15.500)
because I have, I have everything available to me at that speed.
Lex Fridman (1:24:19.740)
So I'm coming down and as I get to 12 oclock, as the Tic Tac's doing this, it literally,
David Fravor (1:24:23.620)
it's like, it's aware of us and it just goes bloop and it kind of points out towards the
Lex Fridman (1:24:27.900)
West and starts coming up.
Lex Fridman (1:24:29.680)
So now it's obviously knows that we're there.
Lex Fridman (1:24:31.700)
Whatever this thing is, it knows that we're there.
Lex Fridman (1:24:33.940)
So as we drive around, it's coming up and I'm just coming down.
Lex Fridman (1:24:36.260)
We're just, I'm just watching it.
David Fravor (1:24:37.260)
Now, you gotta remember this whole thing is like, this is like five minutes.
David Fravor (1:24:39.760)
This is not like we saw it and it was gone or, oh, I saw lights in the sky and they were
David Fravor (1:24:43.460)
gone.
David Fravor (1:24:44.460)
We watched this thing on a crystal clear day with four trained observers, watch this thing
David Fravor (1:24:50.100)
fly around.
Lex Fridman (1:24:51.100)
So we're like, okay.
Lex Fridman (1:24:52.140)
So I get over to the eight oclock position and I'm a little, I'm a couple thousand feet
Lex Fridman (1:24:55.600)
above it and it's about, so I'm probably at about 15 K I think it is.
David Fravor (1:24:59.060)
I think that's my story is about 15.
Lex Fridman (1:25:00.460)
It's just estimating.
Lex Fridman (1:25:01.460)
So you can see it's just a really easy descent because.
Lex Fridman (1:25:05.180)
So what's 15 K?
David Fravor (1:25:06.180)
15,000 feet.
Lex Fridman (1:25:07.180)
I thought it was 8,000.
David Fravor (1:25:08.180)
No, the other plane ends up about that.
Lex Fridman (1:25:12.700)
So they're still at about 20,000 feet.
Lex Fridman (1:25:14.500)
So they're driving around and I'm descending.
Lex Fridman (1:25:16.780)
They're staying up there.
Lex Fridman (1:25:17.780)
So I'm kind of doing this as they drive around.
Lex Fridman (1:25:20.460)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:25:21.460)
So I'm looking at this thing and it's about the two oclock position.
David Fravor (1:25:23.700)
We're about the eight oclock position and I'm like, oh, I've got, I've got enough altitudes.
David Fravor (1:25:27.140)
I'm going to, I'm going to cut across the circle.
Lex Fridman (1:25:28.700)
I tell the guy in my back seat, dude, I'm going to, I'm going to do this.
David Fravor (1:25:31.700)
He's like, go for it.
Lex Fridman (1:25:32.700)
Skip.
David Fravor (1:25:33.700)
Cause I was a skipper.
Lex Fridman (1:25:34.740)
So I cut across the bottom.
Lex Fridman (1:25:37.240)
So I'm kind of almost coming out coaltitude as this thing's coming up, I'm going to meet
Lex Fridman (1:25:40.780)
it.
Lex Fridman (1:25:41.780)
And I'm driving and I get to probably it's, I'm probably about a half mile away, which
Lex Fridman (1:25:46.260)
you think, well, a half mile is pretty far.
David Fravor (1:25:47.700)
Half mile in aviation isn't, it's nothing.
Lex Fridman (1:25:50.020)
It's I mean, you can tell there's a pilot in an airplane.
David Fravor (1:25:52.580)
You can see all kinds of stuff at a half mile.
Lex Fridman (1:25:54.500)
You can see pretty good detail.
Lex Fridman (1:25:56.320)
So I'm like right there and it's coming across my nose.
Lex Fridman (1:25:58.600)
So now I'm basically pointing back towards east.
Lex Fridman (1:26:00.300)
So I'm cutting across cause I'm going to the three oclock position.
Lex Fridman (1:26:02.980)
It's at two oclock and I'm going to meet it at three oclock.
Lex Fridman (1:26:05.760)
So as I do this, it goes, it just accelerates and disappears.
Lex Fridman (1:26:08.880)
So this happens at around, estimating about 12,000 feet.
Lex Fridman (1:26:11.900)
So they're at 20.
Lex Fridman (1:26:12.900)
So they've got about 8,000 foot of altitude above us when this happens.
Lex Fridman (1:26:16.220)
And it just, as it crosses our nose, it just, it accelerates and literally in less than,
Lex Fridman (1:26:21.060)
you know, probably less than a half second, it just goes and it's gone.
Lex Fridman (1:26:24.560)
And so we're like, and I had the first thing is, dude, did you guys see it?
Lex Fridman (1:26:28.700)
The other airplane's like, it's gone.
David Fravor (1:26:30.740)
We don't, we have no idea where it's at.
Lex Fridman (1:26:32.740)
So we kind of spin around real quick.
David Fravor (1:26:34.020)
I go, well, let's see what's down here.
Lex Fridman (1:26:35.460)
And I turn around and we're looking for the whitewater and we can't even, the whitewater's
David Fravor (1:26:38.620)
gone.
Lex Fridman (1:26:39.620)
There's nothing.
David Fravor (1:26:40.620)
It's literally all blue.
Lex Fridman (1:26:41.620)
So now you go.
Lex Fridman (1:26:42.620)
And I remember telling the guy in my backseat, like a dude, I'm, I don't know about you,
Lex Fridman (1:26:46.860)
but I'm pretty weirded out because this is, I mean, you know, I had at the time like 30
David Fravor (1:26:51.740)
some hundred hours of flying.
Lex Fridman (1:26:52.740)
I'd been doing it for 18 years.
David Fravor (1:26:53.740)
It's nothing like anything you've seen.
Lex Fridman (1:26:55.740)
No, no.
Lex Fridman (1:26:56.740)
So as we turn, we go, well, let's just go back, you know, because now I got to put on
David Fravor (1:27:00.900)
my real hat, which we have to train because we're getting ready to deploy to overseas.
Lex Fridman (1:27:06.340)
So we got to get our training done.
Lex Fridman (1:27:07.440)
So that's my mindset, especially as a CEO, cause I got to get, I got to get training
David Fravor (1:27:10.700)
out of the flight time because I'm responsible to do that.
Lex Fridman (1:27:13.100)
So, Hey, let's go back.
Lex Fridman (1:27:14.540)
And the, the, the guy who's going to be the bad guys is the CEO of the Marine squadron.
Lex Fridman (1:27:19.100)
And so Cheeks is at the, he's listening to all this happen, you know, cause he's just
David Fravor (1:27:22.580)
like, cause he, they, when he first went out, they were going to do him, but the little
David Fravor (1:27:25.780)
Hornets, the legacy Hornets, the F18Cs don't have as much gas as the Super Hornets.
Lex Fridman (1:27:30.960)
So he had launched first and they were going to do him.
Lex Fridman (1:27:33.260)
And then when they knew we were off the deck, they just told him, hey, go to your cap point
David Fravor (1:27:36.140)
down South, and we're going to send, we'll pass this off to the Super Hornets.
Lex Fridman (1:27:42.100)
What's a cap point by the way?
David Fravor (1:27:43.460)
That's where we hold.
Lex Fridman (1:27:44.460)
So it's called a combat air patrol point.
Lex Fridman (1:27:46.700)
So we're just going to hold at one end.
Lex Fridman (1:27:48.180)
He's going to hold at the other end.
David Fravor (1:27:49.900)
It's kind of like, Hey, you guys are going to get, it's, it's, if it's a football field,
Lex Fridman (1:27:53.500)
we're going to sit on one goal line.
David Fravor (1:27:54.720)
He's going to sit on the other goal line.
Lex Fridman (1:27:55.900)
And when they say go, we're going to run at each other and then try and do something in
David Fravor (1:27:58.660)
the middle of the field and then go back to our set reset points.
Lex Fridman (1:28:01.020)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:28:02.020)
So you're talking to him.
Lex Fridman (1:28:03.020)
He's, he's, he's listening to the, he's just listening.
David Fravor (1:28:05.520)
We don't talk to him at all.
Lex Fridman (1:28:06.520)
He's just listening.
David Fravor (1:28:07.520)
He just dials up.
Lex Fridman (1:28:08.520)
Cause they know that we all know the frequencies.
Lex Fridman (1:28:09.520)
So he's listening to what's going on because he's like, cause they canceled training.
Lex Fridman (1:28:12.860)
So what else is he going to do?
David Fravor (1:28:13.860)
He's just going to hang out there and do circles while he's waiting for him and his wingman.
Lex Fridman (1:28:16.700)
So they just, they're listening to all this go on.
Lex Fridman (1:28:18.820)
And then at this point you move on.
Lex Fridman (1:28:20.340)
Yeah.
David Fravor (1:28:21.340)
We come back up to train.
Lex Fridman (1:28:22.340)
We go back as we're flying back the controller.
David Fravor (1:28:24.220)
Cause we're talking to the kid on the Princeton, the, the, uh, the, uh, they're called OSs
Lex Fridman (1:28:28.780)
or operations specialists.
David Fravor (1:28:29.780)
They're the ones that run the radars and we're talking to him and he's like, Hey, sir, you're
Lex Fridman (1:28:34.220)
not going to believe this.
David Fravor (1:28:35.220)
He's like, that thing is at your cap.
Lex Fridman (1:28:37.060)
It showed back up.
David Fravor (1:28:38.060)
It just popped up.
Lex Fridman (1:28:39.060)
You know what I mean?
David Fravor (1:28:40.060)
This is like 60 miles away.
Lex Fridman (1:28:41.060)
It just reappears.
David Fravor (1:28:42.060)
We're like, Oh, okay.
Lex Fridman (1:28:43.060)
So we got the radars out.
David Fravor (1:28:44.060)
We're looking for it.
Lex Fridman (1:28:45.060)
Uh, we get out there.
David Fravor (1:28:46.060)
We never see it.
Lex Fridman (1:28:47.060)
We never see it again.
David Fravor (1:28:48.060)
Uh, we do what we need to do.
Lex Fridman (1:28:49.240)
We come back to the ship.
David Fravor (1:28:50.240)
Of course, now we're like, Oh, this is going to be, we're going to, you know, I told him,
David Fravor (1:28:53.020)
I told him, I go, dude, you know, we're going to catch, we're going to catch shit for this.
David Fravor (1:28:56.060)
When we get back to the ship, word's going to get out and we're just going to catch maximum
Lex Fridman (1:28:59.500)
shit.
Lex Fridman (1:29:00.500)
And we did.
David Fravor (1:29:01.500)
We were joking, you know, so the ship plays movies, we have movies on the boat and they
David Fravor (1:29:05.500)
do 12 hours of movies.
Lex Fridman (1:29:06.660)
So they repeat cause there's a day check and a night check.
Lex Fridman (1:29:08.540)
So the same movies in the morning and night play.
Lex Fridman (1:29:10.560)
So you never get to ever get to watch a whole movie on the boat, which drives my wife crazy
David Fravor (1:29:14.860)
cause I'll watch stuff on TV that way too.
David Fravor (1:29:16.580)
I'll be like, Oh, Hey, I've seen this and it, I'll jump into a movie in the middle and
David Fravor (1:29:19.660)
then I'll pick it up later and I'll see the beginning and I'll put it all together, uh,
Lex Fridman (1:29:23.660)
because that's how we have to do it.
David Fravor (1:29:24.660)
Cause we're so busy.
David Fravor (1:29:25.660)
Well, the movies became, and I, it was men in black, aliens, uh, uh, independence day.
David Fravor (1:29:34.020)
Definitely going to catch some shit, but let, let, uh, let me just ask some dumb questions.
Lex Fridman (1:29:40.460)
So just take him, cause it's whatever, whatever the heck you saw, whatever the heck happened,
David Fravor (1:29:45.860)
it's, you know, one of the most fascinating things, um, events in recent history.
Lex Fridman (1:29:55.260)
So whatever it was, it's interesting to talk about it, different kinds of angles.
David Fravor (1:30:00.180)
There's no good answers, but it's interesting to ask some dumb questions here.
David Fravor (1:30:03.660)
Uh, so first of all, you mentioned, see, you saw at some point X, Y, and then, uh, somebody
David Fravor (1:30:10.540)
in the Princeton said, you're not going to believe this, sir.
Lex Fridman (1:30:13.780)
It's at your cap point that that's a different place.
Lex Fridman (1:30:16.320)
How the heck did it know what your cap point is?
Lex Fridman (1:30:18.340)
That's a good question.
Lex Fridman (1:30:19.340)
And that's the one of you to no one, you know, you don't, we don't tell it, we don't broadcast
Lex Fridman (1:30:23.980)
it, we have a waypoint in the system, but I don't know.
David Fravor (1:30:27.300)
Maybe it knew where we were going.
David Fravor (1:30:28.300)
Cause we use the same one day after day after day, but it, it obviously knew, but you never
David Fravor (1:30:33.140)
saw it there.
Lex Fridman (1:30:34.380)
Never saw it there.
David Fravor (1:30:35.380)
Chad, when he took off, when he got the video, we landed, we told them, Hey, look, we just,
Lex Fridman (1:30:39.480)
we just chased this thing.
Lex Fridman (1:30:40.480)
They're like, what?
Lex Fridman (1:30:41.480)
I got to chase it.
Lex Fridman (1:30:42.480)
And they're like, well, I go, dude, and I go, and I told him, I said, dude, get video.
Lex Fridman (1:30:46.740)
And he goes, and so, and that's how he is.
David Fravor (1:30:48.500)
He's like, I'm going to go.
Lex Fridman (1:30:49.500)
And he, he was, he, he was determined that he was going to find this thing.
Lex Fridman (1:30:52.420)
So when you look at his video, and this is the stuff that isn't out, that they don't
Lex Fridman (1:30:56.940)
see because not all the, all you see is the FLIR tape.
David Fravor (1:30:59.740)
That's the targeting pod, the forward looking infrared receiver.
Lex Fridman (1:31:02.580)
I'll probably overlay the video for people to see.
David Fravor (1:31:05.980)
When he goes out, it's you know, what he's looking at on his displays is he has basically
Lex Fridman (1:31:10.580)
two radar displays up.
David Fravor (1:31:12.460)
He has azimuth and range on the right one, and he has azimuth and elevation on the left
Lex Fridman (1:31:16.620)
one.
Lex Fridman (1:31:17.620)
So this is called the Azel display.
Lex Fridman (1:31:18.620)
And this is called, this is basically the PPI, which is the, you're at the bottom of
David Fravor (1:31:22.780)
it.
Lex Fridman (1:31:23.780)
You're at the bottom of the square.
David Fravor (1:31:24.780)
It's really taken this.
David Fravor (1:31:25.900)
It's taken a cone because a radar really looks left and right from a point and it squares
David Fravor (1:31:30.100)
it out.
Lex Fridman (1:31:31.100)
So the entire bottom of the scope that we look at is us because they do this.
David Fravor (1:31:34.740)
They square it off.
David Fravor (1:31:35.740)
So, so he goes out and when he first sees it, he gets a radar return on it because when
David Fravor (1:31:39.560)
he's not trying to lock it.
Lex Fridman (1:31:40.700)
So the radar is just throwing energy out and getting it, you know, it's a Doppler radar.
Lex Fridman (1:31:44.560)
So when it's in search mode, that's all it's doing.
Lex Fridman (1:31:46.100)
It's going, oh, I can see you.
Lex Fridman (1:31:47.460)
And it's looking for return.
Lex Fridman (1:31:48.740)
So he gets a return.
Lex Fridman (1:31:49.820)
So he wants to see what it is because all you get is a little green square, unless it
Lex Fridman (1:31:52.780)
builds a track file on it, but a little green square is just sitting there.
David Fravor (1:31:55.860)
It's not moving because it's, it's sitting in one spot in space.
Lex Fridman (1:32:00.140)
He locks it up when he goes to lock it up.
David Fravor (1:32:01.940)
Now he's putting a bunch of energy on it, but he's telling the radar, stare down that
David Fravor (1:32:05.320)
line of sight and whatever's there, I want you to grab it and build a track file on it,
David Fravor (1:32:08.900)
which will tell us how high it is, how fast it is and the direction that it's going.
Lex Fridman (1:32:13.820)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:32:14.820)
So the radar is smart enough that when the signal comes back, if it's been messed with,
Lex Fridman (1:32:18.580)
it will tell you, it'll give you indications that I'm being jammed.
Lex Fridman (1:32:21.780)
So that's all it is, is you send a signal out, something, it manipulates the signal
David Fravor (1:32:25.460)
either in range and velocity or whatever, and it sends it back and the radar was smart
David Fravor (1:32:29.360)
enough to go, that is not a return that I'm expecting.
Lex Fridman (1:32:33.060)
Something's messing with me.
David Fravor (1:32:34.060)
I'm being jammed.
Lex Fridman (1:32:35.060)
And it shows you and it puts strobes up, it gives these lines on the radar and it does
David Fravor (1:32:38.280)
some stuff.
Lex Fridman (1:32:39.280)
So you can mean, well, it does, it goes full into, it's being jammed at about every mode
David Fravor (1:32:43.460)
you can possibly see because everything comes up and this aspect gets along, it's all kinds
Lex Fridman (1:32:47.500)
of, I don't want to get into details, but you can tell it's being jammed.
Lex Fridman (1:32:50.800)
So and it's what it does.
Lex Fridman (1:32:51.800)
As you said on Rogan, by the way, that jamming is an act of war, right?
David Fravor (1:32:54.420)
Active jamming is, when you actively jam another platform, yes, it's technically an act of
Lex Fridman (1:32:57.980)
war.
David Fravor (1:32:58.980)
It feels like you should be freaking out at this point, I mean.
Lex Fridman (1:33:01.020)
So well, he does it and then in the back seat, so they don't have a stick and throttle, they
David Fravor (1:33:05.860)
have their side stick controllers so they can control all the sensors and they can just
Lex Fridman (1:33:09.620)
toggle around and do stuff.
Lex Fridman (1:33:10.880)
So he has the ability to just move one switch real quick and it will go from that azimuth
Lex Fridman (1:33:15.660)
elevation on the radar to the targeting pod.
David Fravor (1:33:17.780)
Well, as soon as he commanded the radar to look at that target, the targeting pod goes,
Lex Fridman (1:33:22.460)
oh, what's over there?
Lex Fridman (1:33:23.460)
And it'll stare because it goes down the line of sight because all the systems are hooked
Lex Fridman (1:33:25.860)
together.
David Fravor (1:33:27.060)
You can decouple them, but they're going to automatically couple up.
Lex Fridman (1:33:30.140)
So when he castles over, it's a switch, it looks like a castle switch, what's a castle?
Lex Fridman (1:33:34.200)
So when he moves that thing to the left and he swaps the displays out and he says, instead
David Fravor (1:33:38.180)
of looking at the radar, I want to look at the targeting pod, he sees it on the targeting
David Fravor (1:33:41.500)
pod because the targeting pod's already looking there.
Lex Fridman (1:33:44.020)
And now he's on a passive track because he's not literally sending any energy out, he's
David Fravor (1:33:47.540)
just receiving IR energy from the tic tac and then the system itself will track the
Lex Fridman (1:33:52.980)
pixels and the contrast differences, it depends on what mode you're in.
Lex Fridman (1:33:56.180)
So it says, oh, and that's where those little bars you see in the video where the bars come
Lex Fridman (1:33:58.780)
up left and right.
David Fravor (1:33:59.780)
There's doing some vision based tracking.
Lex Fridman (1:34:02.120)
That's exactly what it is.
Lex Fridman (1:34:03.860)
So and then he goes through.
Lex Fridman (1:34:06.300)
Changes zooms, changes the mode.
David Fravor (1:34:08.580)
He goes through all the modes, so there's a narrow, medium and wide.
Lex Fridman (1:34:11.460)
So wide is far away, medium and then narrow.
Lex Fridman (1:34:14.420)
And then there's the TV mode and he goes from IR mode to the TV mode.
Lex Fridman (1:34:18.500)
The cool thing with the TV mode is narrow IR mode is only medium TV mode.
Lex Fridman (1:34:25.860)
So you can actually get closer with narrow TV mode.
Lex Fridman (1:34:28.300)
It's got a better zoom capability when you go into TV mode.
Lex Fridman (1:34:32.180)
So he goes through all those things and that's when you see it going from a black background
Lex Fridman (1:34:35.020)
to a white background.
Lex Fridman (1:34:36.020)
So you can figure out what the heck is this?
David Fravor (1:34:37.260)
Well, yeah, and he wants to get as much data as he can on it based on the different modes
Lex Fridman (1:34:40.740)
instead of just staring at it going, what is that thing?
Lex Fridman (1:34:45.300)
So the video has been out, it actually was on YouTube for years before the government
David Fravor (1:34:50.140)
released it.
Lex Fridman (1:34:51.140)
It was leaked in 2007?
David Fravor (1:34:54.460)
No, the guy that was in my backseat sent me an email and I had retired.
Lex Fridman (1:35:00.560)
So this is about, nope, because I was working down in San Diego.
Lex Fridman (1:35:05.020)
So this is about 2008, early 2009, he sends me a link to strangeland.com, which is not
Lex Fridman (1:35:15.300)
suitable for work.
David Fravor (1:35:16.300)
Oh yeah, it's top notch.
Lex Fridman (1:35:18.260)
And he says, I can remember the email, hey Skip, does this look familiar?
Lex Fridman (1:35:24.300)
And I look at it, I'm like, how the hell did that get on strangeland.com?
Lex Fridman (1:35:29.940)
So next thing you know, it ends up on YouTube, which was cool because you can send a YouTube
David Fravor (1:35:35.300)
link to someone.
David Fravor (1:35:36.620)
You don't send strangeland.com to someone because you don't know what you're going to
David Fravor (1:35:40.620)
get.
Lex Fridman (1:35:41.620)
It's like Googling kittens.
Lex Fridman (1:35:42.620)
So it ends up there somehow.
Lex Fridman (1:35:47.140)
So it gets on YouTube, which was cool because I would go out with my friends and we'd be
Lex Fridman (1:35:50.940)
drinking and they go, dude, what's the coolest thing you ever saw flying?
Lex Fridman (1:35:53.780)
It's kind of like you were asking what it's like.
Lex Fridman (1:35:55.420)
And I go, oh dude, I chased a UFO and they're like, get out.
Lex Fridman (1:35:58.140)
And I'm like, no, serious.
David Fravor (1:35:59.140)
This is literally how it happened.
Lex Fridman (1:36:01.100)
So I was sitting with my friend Matt.
Lex Fridman (1:36:03.040)
So Matt and I did our, he was the guy in my right seat of the A6 when I did my very first
Lex Fridman (1:36:07.420)
night trap.
Lex Fridman (1:36:08.800)
And we were friends to this day.
David Fravor (1:36:11.060)
Because when you do stuff like people like that, I had to have faith in him, he had to
David Fravor (1:36:15.660)
have faith in me, they become like your brother.
Lex Fridman (1:36:20.980)
And these are guys that literally, I don't talk to them on a regular basis, like Chris
David Fravor (1:36:24.860)
who works at Apple.
Lex Fridman (1:36:26.600)
If Chris called me up tomorrow and said, dude, I need help.
David Fravor (1:36:29.580)
I need this.
Lex Fridman (1:36:30.580)
I'd be like, all right, let's figure this out and let's do it.
David Fravor (1:36:32.540)
Because it's, they're like family, you do it.
Lex Fridman (1:36:34.660)
And most Navy guys, we don't send letters to each other weekly.
David Fravor (1:36:38.940)
You know, I have friends that I haven't talked to in 10 years that they showed up on my door,
David Fravor (1:36:43.180)
you know, pop a bottle of wine, grab a beer, shoot the shit, take about first 10 minutes
David Fravor (1:36:47.220)
to catch up.
Lex Fridman (1:36:48.220)
And then it's like old times and it's amazing how fast it's happened.
Lex Fridman (1:36:51.820)
So I'm out to dinner with Matt and I'm telling him this story and he's like, get out of here.
Lex Fridman (1:36:57.780)
So he goes back and he tells our friend Paco, Paco has fightersweep.com, it's a blog site.
Lex Fridman (1:37:05.480)
So Paco's obsessed, like he is way into UFOs.
Lex Fridman (1:37:09.700)
So Paco calls me up, he says, dude, I was talking to Matty.
David Fravor (1:37:12.700)
That's what we call him.
Lex Fridman (1:37:13.700)
He goes, I was talking to Matty.
David Fravor (1:37:14.700)
He goes, dude, you got to tell me this story.
Lex Fridman (1:37:18.460)
So I'm like, all right.
David Fravor (1:37:19.460)
I'm going to spend a chunk of time and so he calls me one day and I'm like, I got to
Lex Fridman (1:37:24.020)
get a voicemail.
David Fravor (1:37:25.020)
Hey, give me a call.
Lex Fridman (1:37:26.020)
So I call him up and he answers the phone, but I could hear people in the background
Lex Fridman (1:37:29.540)
and I go, hey dude, what's going on?
Lex Fridman (1:37:30.540)
He goes, hang on, hang on.
David Fravor (1:37:31.540)
I got to put you on speakerphone.
Lex Fridman (1:37:32.540)
I go, what are you putting me on speakerphone?
David Fravor (1:37:33.540)
He goes, you got to tell the story.
Lex Fridman (1:37:34.540)
I'm having a dinner party.
David Fravor (1:37:36.420)
You got to tell the story.
Lex Fridman (1:37:37.420)
So he's literally having a dinner party with his cell phone in the middle of the table
David Fravor (1:37:40.100)
as I tell a Tic Tac story.
Lex Fridman (1:37:42.440)
So he calls me up again.
David Fravor (1:37:43.440)
He says, hey, I got this blog and he just writes about fighter stuff.
Lex Fridman (1:37:48.260)
Like he wrote about that we call them the shit hot break.
David Fravor (1:37:50.500)
That's a guy that when you're laying on a carrier, comes in, turns and gets ready to
Lex Fridman (1:37:53.940)
land really fast.
David Fravor (1:37:54.940)
Like breaks it off right at the back of the ship and one of the guys, when we were junior
David Fravor (1:37:59.840)
officers on the USS Ranger, one of the department heads in the other squadron is a guy, Nasty.
Lex Fridman (1:38:04.220)
And Nasty was notorious for coming in in a Tomcat and cranking off the shit hot break.
Lex Fridman (1:38:08.780)
So he literally wrote a thing about the shit hot break with Nasty and there's another guy,
David Fravor (1:38:13.700)
Mav, was one of our landing signals officers for the air wing.
David Fravor (1:38:20.380)
It's a good article on how this was and how it kind of forms you in Naval Aviation, kind
David Fravor (1:38:24.980)
of being part of the club.
Lex Fridman (1:38:26.420)
So he's like, I got to write about this thing.
David Fravor (1:38:28.180)
I'm like, what do you guys, I got to write about it.
Lex Fridman (1:38:29.980)
I go, all right.
David Fravor (1:38:30.980)
Because at first I would say no.
Lex Fridman (1:38:31.980)
I'm like, dude, I don't want this out there.
David Fravor (1:38:32.980)
Just.
Lex Fridman (1:38:33.980)
So you haven't really before then talked about it much.
David Fravor (1:38:36.500)
My wife didn't even really know the whole story.
Lex Fridman (1:38:38.860)
Why?
David Fravor (1:38:39.860)
Just as a comment, is it just because you caught some.
David Fravor (1:38:42.700)
You know, it was just, I'll tell you what, three days we had the incident for about two
David Fravor (1:38:47.300)
days.
Lex Fridman (1:38:48.300)
They played the goofy movies.
David Fravor (1:38:49.300)
There's a comic on the back of the air wing schedule that they would put.
David Fravor (1:38:52.260)
It was like first one was a far side and the second one was me and the guy in my back seat
Lex Fridman (1:38:56.460)
and it was men in black, but it had our names, you know, protecting protecting the Nimitz
Lex Fridman (1:38:59.820)
battle group type stuff.
David Fravor (1:39:00.820)
It's just funny shit like that.
Lex Fridman (1:39:03.820)
So to me it wasn't that big of a deal.
David Fravor (1:39:06.180)
It was like, okay, that's weird.
Lex Fridman (1:39:07.180)
We're never going to know what it was.
David Fravor (1:39:08.820)
I want to get out there because this is important because there's all kinds of rumors.
Lex Fridman (1:39:12.340)
There's a group of folks there.
David Fravor (1:39:15.380)
No one ever came out in suits to talk to us.
Lex Fridman (1:39:20.460)
Nobody looking like me.
David Fravor (1:39:22.060)
No came out on a, no, no one came out of the helicopter.
Lex Fridman (1:39:26.140)
No one came out on an airplane.
David Fravor (1:39:28.220)
You know, you get, oh, I was told to turn over this classified.
Lex Fridman (1:39:31.060)
What's funny is all the COs and several of them are still in the Navy.
David Fravor (1:39:36.060)
There's one that is a, he, I think he just finished up.
Lex Fridman (1:39:38.660)
He was a captain of an aircraft carrier.
David Fravor (1:39:40.980)
You know, so he'll end up making Admiral and all that stuff.
Lex Fridman (1:39:44.180)
Those guys are all my friends.
David Fravor (1:39:45.180)
I talk to them daily.
Lex Fridman (1:39:47.220)
Just to clarify.
Lex Fridman (1:39:48.220)
So just for people who don't know, there's a story that both on the Nimitz and the Princeton
Lex Fridman (1:39:56.100)
folks in a helicopter landed.
David Fravor (1:39:59.140)
They showed up, they took the data, quote unquote.
Lex Fridman (1:40:02.400)
So all the sort of recordings associated with this incident and they took it and presumably
David Fravor (1:40:09.460)
deleted it.
Lex Fridman (1:40:10.460)
So there's a kind of story to that.
Lex Fridman (1:40:13.180)
And then from what I've seen, you said that you believe, just like we were talking about
David Fravor (1:40:19.060)
offline, that jokes spread faster than, or just rumors spread faster than anything on
David Fravor (1:40:24.420)
these ships, that it might've been a joke that started and.
Lex Fridman (1:40:29.100)
Well, they did.
Lex Fridman (1:40:30.220)
So here's the joke.
Lex Fridman (1:40:31.740)
So they had come down, right?
David Fravor (1:40:33.120)
We had the tapes and they were Chad's tapes.
Lex Fridman (1:40:37.100)
So we use those tapes over and over again.
David Fravor (1:40:39.320)
They're consumable, but remember, I have a budget as a squadron, so I have a budget.
Lex Fridman (1:40:42.940)
So I have to buy those tapes, all that stuff that we use, I'm accountable for.
Lex Fridman (1:40:47.060)
And the tapes are actually classified secret because of the data that's on them.
Lex Fridman (1:40:50.940)
So we had the tapes.
Lex Fridman (1:40:52.460)
So the intelligence guys, the intel officers came down from what's called Civic, CVIC,
Lex Fridman (1:40:59.100)
which is Carrier Intel Center, came down and said, hey, we need the tapes.
David Fravor (1:41:03.820)
These guys are gonna come, they're gonna come and get them.
Lex Fridman (1:41:07.060)
So we're like, I'm like, oh, whatever.
Lex Fridman (1:41:09.420)
So we hand them the tapes and then someone, because I have, you know people, shortly after
David Fravor (1:41:15.340)
they came and got the tapes, someone came to me and said, you know, they're messing
David Fravor (1:41:18.820)
with you, they're playing a joke.
Lex Fridman (1:41:20.820)
So I said, oh, well, let's see how well that goes because I'm a CO and they're not.
Lex Fridman (1:41:26.340)
So I went down to Civic and it was a, I think he was a Lieutenant or Lieutenant JG, so he's
Lex Fridman (1:41:31.020)
way junior to me.
Lex Fridman (1:41:32.020)
And I said, hey, I want my tapes back and he looks at me and I go, I know you guys are
Lex Fridman (1:41:37.460)
pulling my leg.
David Fravor (1:41:38.460)
I know there's no one came out.
Lex Fridman (1:41:40.100)
And I go, and you have about 30 seconds to get me my tapes before I start tearing this
David Fravor (1:41:43.420)
place apart.
Lex Fridman (1:41:44.420)
That's literally what I told him.
Lex Fridman (1:41:46.420)
And I said, and if your boss has an issue, he can come and see me because it's not gonna
Lex Fridman (1:41:50.780)
go well.
David Fravor (1:41:52.020)
I said, because this is bullshit and I need those tapes.
David Fravor (1:41:54.540)
Then he literally walked right over to a filing cabinet, opened it up, they weren't in a safe.
David Fravor (1:41:57.940)
He opened up a filing cabinet and pulled them out and handed them to me.
David Fravor (1:42:00.700)
I said, and I basically said a few things to him, like, don't ever fuck with me again.
Lex Fridman (1:42:05.220)
And I left, I had the tapes.
Lex Fridman (1:42:07.100)
So this, no one came out.
David Fravor (1:42:08.540)
There's no flying going on when all this is happening.
Lex Fridman (1:42:11.380)
And I took the tapes back and then I copied the tapes.
Lex Fridman (1:42:15.260)
So I took two brand new eight mil tapes and I copied the sections that I want.
Lex Fridman (1:42:19.640)
So there's a rumor or two that, oh, the original FLIR video is 10 minutes long and there's
David Fravor (1:42:23.380)
some, one of these petty officers is saying, I saw it, that's total crap.
Lex Fridman (1:42:26.340)
The original video is about a minute, 30 seconds long.
Lex Fridman (1:42:28.480)
What you see on the release video is the entire video.
Lex Fridman (1:42:31.740)
So you have mentioned, I apologize if I say stupid things, please correct me, but you
David Fravor (1:42:38.220)
have mentioned that, like on Roguen, I think that you watched it on a bigger screen.
Lex Fridman (1:42:45.620)
It felt like it was higher definition.
Lex Fridman (1:42:47.740)
So let me ask the question, is there a higher definition version, do you think, of the FLIR
David Fravor (1:42:55.220)
video that would give us more pixels and more information presumably because of the high
David Fravor (1:43:01.620)
number of.
Lex Fridman (1:43:02.620)
I would doubt it.
David Fravor (1:43:03.620)
Because I don't know where, the stuff that the government released, I don't know where
Lex Fridman (1:43:05.980)
they got it.
David Fravor (1:43:06.980)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (1:43:07.980)
So the stuff that was on Strangeland and YouTube, someone pulled off of a secret, it looks like
David Fravor (1:43:11.140)
a rack.
David Fravor (1:43:12.140)
There's tape machines in there and it gets converted to digital and stored on a hard
David Fravor (1:43:15.300)
drive and they pulled it off that hard drive and they put it on YouTube.
David Fravor (1:43:19.100)
No, it's just like, anytime, even a digital media, the more you copy digital media, there's
David Fravor (1:43:24.700)
some quality that gets, it degrades.
Lex Fridman (1:43:27.060)
So this, you don't know how many times this has been copied.
Lex Fridman (1:43:29.000)
So we were looking, the videos I've seen are right off the original, they're Hi8 tapes,
David Fravor (1:43:32.580)
it's basically pulled off the back of the display, so it's not filmed with cameras,
David Fravor (1:43:35.860)
it's literally a digital feed that's pulled off the back and put onto a Hi8 tape.
Lex Fridman (1:43:39.560)
That's how the recorders work.
David Fravor (1:43:40.800)
Now it's actually digital to digital, it's not even on tapes anymore, it's a digital
David Fravor (1:43:44.540)
recording system, but we were still in that process of slowly, because originally we had
David Fravor (1:43:47.580)
little cameras here that shine, so if the light hit, it would wash out the displays.
Lex Fridman (1:43:52.140)
So it's a pretty good feed, when you put it on, so instead of looking at it on your tiny
David Fravor (1:43:57.460)
little computer monitor or whatever, I'm looking at it on like a 19 inch, because it was still
David Fravor (1:44:02.260)
normal TVs back there, we had just put flat screens in the ready room that I had bought,
Lex Fridman (1:44:06.260)
so we could watch movies.
Lex Fridman (1:44:07.420)
A nice, huge 19 inch screen.
David Fravor (1:44:11.220)
It's maybe 20, it was nice.
Lex Fridman (1:44:13.820)
Wow, that's huge.
David Fravor (1:44:14.820)
It was gigantic.
Lex Fridman (1:44:15.820)
I can get for like 50 bucks, you can get like 60 inches.
David Fravor (1:44:20.980)
This is 2005.
Lex Fridman (1:44:23.380)
So you look at it as this big thing.
David Fravor (1:44:25.820)
You could see, so when you get to the TV mode, when I say there's little things coming out
Lex Fridman (1:44:28.940)
of the bottom of it, you could see those.
David Fravor (1:44:30.620)
It was very clear.
Lex Fridman (1:44:32.320)
But in terms of the actual visual on the Tic Tac, did you get much more information from
Lex Fridman (1:44:38.620)
the higher, from the clear?
Lex Fridman (1:44:40.700)
Little things out of the bottom.
David Fravor (1:44:41.700)
We didn't see those visuals.
Lex Fridman (1:44:42.700)
So the bottom information.
David Fravor (1:44:43.700)
I got it.
Lex Fridman (1:44:44.700)
So when you see it, because he's coming almost coaltitude with it, you can see the bottom
David Fravor (1:44:47.060)
of it.
David Fravor (1:44:48.060)
It looks like little, you know, like if you look at a Cessna, there's little antennas
David Fravor (1:44:50.380)
hanging out of the bottom.
Lex Fridman (1:44:51.380)
Kind of like that.
David Fravor (1:44:52.380)
There was two little things out of the bottom.
Lex Fridman (1:44:53.800)
There's nothing on the top.
David Fravor (1:44:54.800)
There was no plume, no IR, no visible propulsions, even heat signature.
Lex Fridman (1:45:00.380)
You know, it's all that stuff.
Lex Fridman (1:45:01.580)
And then the other thing that people didn't see is they didn't see the radar display,
David Fravor (1:45:06.260)
which that really raises a classification of it, especially to see what the radar does
David Fravor (1:45:10.040)
when it's being jammed.
David Fravor (1:45:12.620)
You know, matter of fact, when they did the unofficial official investigation in about
David Fravor (1:45:15.820)
2000 and let me think about 2009.
David Fravor (1:45:21.060)
I got a call on my cell phone from a guy who government employee and said, hey, he told
David Fravor (1:45:27.540)
me who he was.
Lex Fridman (1:45:28.540)
He's still in the government.
David Fravor (1:45:30.140)
I'm friends with him.
Lex Fridman (1:45:31.140)
And he said, hey, we're going to investigate your Tic Tac thing.
David Fravor (1:45:35.580)
This is literally five years later.
Lex Fridman (1:45:37.500)
Yeah.
David Fravor (1:45:38.500)
Five years later.
Lex Fridman (1:45:39.620)
And I said, OK, whatever.
Lex Fridman (1:45:41.220)
And he did a pretty good job.
Lex Fridman (1:45:42.220)
I caught the unofficial official report because it was really never official.
David Fravor (1:45:48.500)
It wasn't.
Lex Fridman (1:45:49.740)
But I'll give you the history of why I say that and why it never came out in FOIA requests.
Lex Fridman (1:45:54.500)
So he does the report.
Lex Fridman (1:45:55.540)
He sent me the report.
Lex Fridman (1:45:56.740)
And all he said is, hey, I'm going to send you this report.
Lex Fridman (1:45:58.660)
Please don't distribute this report.
David Fravor (1:46:01.220)
I said, OK.
David Fravor (1:46:02.620)
The report is now out because Harry Reid got it to George Knapp and they were good enough
David Fravor (1:46:06.800)
to redact it.
Lex Fridman (1:46:07.800)
But there's a few versions of it unredacted and I'm very protective of the other people
David Fravor (1:46:11.100)
that were involved in this.
Lex Fridman (1:46:13.240)
So Jim has talked, but he's off the grid.
David Fravor (1:46:15.500)
He doesn't talk to anyone now.
David Fravor (1:46:17.380)
The pilot of his airplane, she has come out on unidentified, but they don't release her
David Fravor (1:46:21.980)
name, although people are starting to do it.
Lex Fridman (1:46:23.260)
And she's had weird shit happen around her house.
David Fravor (1:46:25.140)
She's got kids, you know, so I'm very protective of her.
Lex Fridman (1:46:29.340)
And I've told people like Jeremy and George, if I know that the names ever came from you,
David Fravor (1:46:32.580)
I will never talk to you again about this.
Lex Fridman (1:46:34.580)
And Jeremy's been really good about it.
Lex Fridman (1:46:36.000)
And so is George.
Lex Fridman (1:46:37.540)
And then, but George knew who the names were because he got the report from Senator Reid.
Lex Fridman (1:46:43.900)
And then the other crew.
Lex Fridman (1:46:44.900)
So the pilot of the airplane that took the video that Chad was in, if you talk to that
David Fravor (1:46:51.820)
individual, they really don't have the recollection.
Lex Fridman (1:46:53.820)
They were just out flying that day and it wasn't a big deal.
Lex Fridman (1:46:58.300)
So it's you need to protect because not everyone wants people knocking.
David Fravor (1:47:01.780)
I don't want people knocking on my door and, you know, and there's rumors are you talk
David Fravor (1:47:05.600)
to everyone.
Lex Fridman (1:47:06.600)
You know, you're about the 23rd person that I've talked to total.
Lex Fridman (1:47:10.020)
And that includes, you know, the newspapers and stuff.
Lex Fridman (1:47:13.340)
And I've been selective because there's so much, I mean, if I turned down like, I turned
David Fravor (1:47:17.540)
down Russian TV.
Lex Fridman (1:47:18.540)
I can give you her name when we're done here.
David Fravor (1:47:21.660)
She called, she not only called me, she called my wife, she called my daughter, she called
Lex Fridman (1:47:24.940)
my son and she called my son in law because they're persistent.
Lex Fridman (1:47:28.380)
So I'm pretty protected.
Lex Fridman (1:47:30.380)
I'm very particular.
David Fravor (1:47:31.380)
I mean, the reason I'm talking to you is because I knew we would have a conversation that wasn't
David Fravor (1:47:34.080)
based just on the tic tac and the incident, but we can actually talk about some of the
David Fravor (1:47:37.780)
science and some of the theoretical to get into, to get more people involved to go.
David Fravor (1:47:42.740)
Cause I think there's, you know, and when you talk to, you know, Lou Elizondo or Chris
David Fravor (1:47:48.020)
Mellon, you know, the group at TTSA, you know, that whole thing, that's to the stars Academy.
Lex Fridman (1:47:55.580)
That's the Tom DeLonge group that got started.
Lex Fridman (1:47:57.260)
So you go, well, you know, cause I think Tom has caught a lot of crap for this, but he's
David Fravor (1:48:02.860)
actually, when you talk to him, he's, he's, he's very smart and I asked him, how'd you
Lex Fridman (1:48:07.500)
get into this?
Lex Fridman (1:48:08.500)
And he goes, oh, when I was traveling around with Blink 182, he goes, you read a lot of
David Fravor (1:48:12.260)
books when you're laying in a van as you're driving to your next gig before you make it
Lex Fridman (1:48:16.480)
big.
Lex Fridman (1:48:17.480)
And he goes, and he read, he was reading books and he read one of them on UFOs.
Lex Fridman (1:48:20.300)
I'm trying to think of the title.
David Fravor (1:48:21.300)
That's one of the big ones that's out there real popular.
Lex Fridman (1:48:23.740)
And so he started just, he started asking more and through his fame with Blink 182 in
David Fravor (1:48:29.900)
the band, he got more and more connected.
David Fravor (1:48:32.340)
You know, if you talk to Chris Mellon, who is an undersecretary of defense for intelligence
Lex Fridman (1:48:36.380)
and he's part of the Mellon dynasty, you know, from Carnegie Mellon type, very, very smart.
David Fravor (1:48:43.160)
He knows, he, he, he definitely knows how the government works cause he worked there.
Lex Fridman (1:48:47.700)
And so when I went down to DC to talk to people, he's one of the first people I'll go to.
David Fravor (1:48:53.740)
When I did Tucker Carlson about a month ago, month and a half ago, I asked, he texted me,
David Fravor (1:49:01.460)
I texted him, Tom, Lou to go, Hey, cause they were like, you gotta do it.
David Fravor (1:49:05.820)
Cause I turned to, I turned Tucker down a couple of times before and his, his producer
David Fravor (1:49:11.060)
had called me and I'm like, all right, I'll do it.
Lex Fridman (1:49:14.100)
Because those guys like, you gotta, you gotta do this for us.
Lex Fridman (1:49:16.220)
So from my perspective, just to give you some context.
Lex Fridman (1:49:19.260)
So to me, there seems to be some stigma.
Lex Fridman (1:49:23.260)
So I come from the scientific community and I really appreciate you talking to me today.
Lex Fridman (1:49:27.140)
And I think that people who listen to this include, you know, of faculty, fellow faculty
David Fravor (1:49:33.780)
at MIT and major universities.
Lex Fridman (1:49:36.020)
And it feels like there's some stigma to the subject from, from the scientific community.
David Fravor (1:49:43.380)
A lot of people, especially when they hear your story are like, wow, this is really interesting,
Lex Fridman (1:49:48.180)
but you, you don't even know you, one, you're afraid to talk about it.
Lex Fridman (1:49:53.900)
And two, you don't know what the next steps are, like how can we seriously try to think
David Fravor (1:49:58.480)
about what you saw, how to think about how we further look for things like it, how we
David Fravor (1:50:05.580)
develop systems and plans for how in the future we can immediately collect a lot more data
Lex Fridman (1:50:14.420)
and try to react properly, you know, try to communicate, try to interpret this in the
David Fravor (1:50:23.140)
best way possible from the scientific perspective.
Lex Fridman (1:50:25.620)
And I, I just would love to remove stigma from this subject.
David Fravor (1:50:31.060)
Well, I think that's the first step we have done in this country, an absolutely terrible
Lex Fridman (1:50:37.420)
job with these things.
Lex Fridman (1:50:38.480)
So you go, and I joke, you know, go back to Roswell.
Lex Fridman (1:50:42.000)
So the first reports that came out of Roswell was we have this crash flying saucer.
David Fravor (1:50:46.360)
That's literally what came out.
Lex Fridman (1:50:48.020)
And then magically the next day it's a weather balloon and they're showing your pieces of
David Fravor (1:50:51.300)
mylar and you go, well, that doesn't look like what they showed us yesterday.
David Fravor (1:50:55.380)
Then you get into Project Blue Book, you know, so there's that whole series about Project
David Fravor (1:50:58.180)
Blue Book.
Lex Fridman (1:50:59.180)
But the bottom line of Project Blue Book is it really did two things.
David Fravor (1:51:01.120)
It investigated sightings and it did everything it could to debunk and disprove to the point
Lex Fridman (1:51:06.440)
where it actually went to discredit, you know, to make you look.
Lex Fridman (1:51:10.380)
So there's always been this, I don't know if you'd call it an aura around it or a mystique
Lex Fridman (1:51:15.560)
about UFOs that if you're talking about them, they're nuts.
David Fravor (1:51:19.020)
With ours, because I'm not a UFO guy, I'm not a junkie.
David Fravor (1:51:23.160)
If you ask me, do I believe that there's life outside of Earth, I would say you probably
David Fravor (1:51:29.440)
have a better chance of winning the mega ball lottery than we're the only planet that has
Lex Fridman (1:51:34.760)
life on it in the universe.
David Fravor (1:51:36.840)
The odds are against it.
David Fravor (1:51:38.580)
If you do just do the math, you have to accept, because there only has to be one other planet
David Fravor (1:51:44.280)
that has life on it and then I win and you lose.
Lex Fridman (1:51:48.300)
And then more and more science is showing that there's habitable planets out there,
David Fravor (1:51:52.280)
that yeah, everything we've learned so far, we know very little, but everything we've
David Fravor (1:51:56.040)
learned so far about the planets out there, exoplanets, Earth like planets, it seems that
David Fravor (1:52:03.480)
it's very likely that there's life out there.
Lex Fridman (1:52:06.720)
Intelligent life is another topic, but life.
David Fravor (1:52:08.960)
Well, we as humans, you know, and even more as Americans, we have this hubris about us
Lex Fridman (1:52:13.760)
that says, ha ha, we're it and you go, not so much.
David Fravor (1:52:18.680)
Maybe we're not so intelligent.
Lex Fridman (1:52:20.980)
Because we are, it's just how we learn.
Lex Fridman (1:52:22.840)
So our main mode of transportation and what people figured out years ago was the internal
Lex Fridman (1:52:28.760)
combustion engine, which led us to jet engines and solid rocket fuel.
Lex Fridman (1:52:33.060)
What if you're in another planet where you figured out the ability to create a gravity
David Fravor (1:52:39.320)
field or you used, you know, because electromagnetics are becoming bigger and bigger and bigger,
David Fravor (1:52:43.240)
you know, catapults on ships were steam powered and the new Gerald Ford is electromagnetic.
Lex Fridman (1:52:48.560)
Roller coasters used to use a chain to get you to the top of the hill.
David Fravor (1:52:50.840)
Now they shoot you with electromagnetics and you're going.
Lex Fridman (1:52:53.920)
So there's a whole new realm of propulsion that, you know, sometimes it's our ability
David Fravor (1:52:57.760)
to develop the technology to support theory.
David Fravor (1:53:00.480)
You know, we are just now proving, you know, recently theories that Einstein had where
David Fravor (1:53:05.800)
people actually joked about them.
Lex Fridman (1:53:07.080)
And now we actually have the technology to prove that gravity can bend light.
David Fravor (1:53:10.560)
You know, we've proven that.
Lex Fridman (1:53:12.000)
So you look at that way and you go, well, does that mean that, you know, 70 years ago
Lex Fridman (1:53:15.600)
Einstein was wrong or 80 years ago Einstein was wrong?
David Fravor (1:53:17.920)
Or do you go, we just didn't have the ability to look that deep into space to actually find
David Fravor (1:53:22.260)
something that we could, to actually measure.
Lex Fridman (1:53:24.600)
And you know, and I've seen this stuff.
Lex Fridman (1:53:25.600)
And that's just a hundred years and the kind of things that can happen in a few centuries.
Lex Fridman (1:53:29.040)
Look what we've done in the last 20 years.
David Fravor (1:53:30.640)
Yeah, it's crazy.
David Fravor (1:53:31.640)
Let me direct, cause it's such an interesting topic from a career perspective, from a science
David Fravor (1:53:35.600)
perspective, you're, I mean, you've spoken, you've been brave in, you know, telling your
Lex Fridman (1:53:43.280)
story, not some dramatic thing, but just telling the things you've seen.
Lex Fridman (1:53:48.000)
Did it encounter, did it impact your career?
Lex Fridman (1:53:53.080)
Is that why more people haven't come out?
David Fravor (1:53:55.240)
Like you've mentioned Roswell, like how, what advice do you give to people, to the community,
David Fravor (1:54:03.380)
to me as a scientist for ways to go forward about this topic and still have a, you know,
David Fravor (1:54:11.480)
not being put in a bin in society that he's a loon or she's a loon or that person.
David Fravor (1:54:16.880)
Mine is to get away from the little green men, just divorce the two little green men.
Lex Fridman (1:54:23.720)
And you know, and I've talked to Lou Elizondo about this, you know, and the group that they're
Lex Fridman (1:54:27.400)
working with, which is incredible.
David Fravor (1:54:28.400)
I mean, they've got Steve Justice who used to run Skunk Works where they built, you know,
Lex Fridman (1:54:32.960)
projects.
David Fravor (1:54:33.960)
Now, Lou Elizondo, as you mentioned, was a program director.
Lex Fridman (1:54:36.560)
He ran the ATIP program at the Pentagon.
Lex Fridman (1:54:38.520)
And ATIP was a program that was tasked with investigating any kind of UFOs, UAPs.
Lex Fridman (1:54:45.220)
So what's funny is the unofficial official report that I joke about, the guy who wrote
David Fravor (1:54:49.640)
the unofficial official report was actually an original member of ATIP.
Lex Fridman (1:54:53.640)
And the original stuff that ATIP did was FOIA exempt.
Lex Fridman (1:54:57.280)
And people go, how do you know that?
David Fravor (1:54:58.280)
I go, because I stood there with the memo in my hand that said these are, it literally,
David Fravor (1:55:03.040)
I watched the DOD memo that said it and it was signed.
Lex Fridman (1:55:05.600)
So he was one.
Lex Fridman (1:55:07.120)
So that's why the, that's why I call it the unofficial official report.
David Fravor (1:55:09.600)
It was never, it was never releasable because people go, oh, I put in a FOIA request and
David Fravor (1:55:13.520)
I didn't get that.
David Fravor (1:55:14.520)
I go, well, just because you put in a FOIA request and get it, I go, because how much,
Lex Fridman (1:55:17.480)
how much time do you think that guy is going to spend to get you the information that you
Lex Fridman (1:55:20.320)
requested if he can't find it?
David Fravor (1:55:21.600)
I actually got called by the Navy.
David Fravor (1:55:23.320)
I had a commander in the Navy call me about right before the article came out in the New
David Fravor (1:55:29.080)
York Times.
David Fravor (1:55:30.080)
It was, this was starting to come back and she had called me because there's been, there
David Fravor (1:55:33.000)
was a FOIA request for stuff about the Nimitz incident.
Lex Fridman (1:55:35.480)
And I said, do you know of anything?
David Fravor (1:55:38.000)
She called me, she goes, do you know of anything else besides the situation reports that come
Lex Fridman (1:55:41.680)
off the ship?
Lex Fridman (1:55:42.680)
And you know, and you got to remember when the situation report comes off the ship, that's
Lex Fridman (1:55:45.780)
like third hand.
Lex Fridman (1:55:46.780)
So we tell someone, they tell someone, that person has to write it up.
Lex Fridman (1:55:50.880)
So there's all kinds of inaccuracies in it.
Lex Fridman (1:55:54.180)
But then there's the unofficial official report that's actually pretty well written.
Lex Fridman (1:55:56.760)
There's some errors in it, but it was, you know, I didn't help write it.
David Fravor (1:55:59.360)
I just did it.
Lex Fridman (1:56:00.400)
And he did a really good job of researching it and figuring out who's who in the zoo and
David Fravor (1:56:03.720)
the players.
Lex Fridman (1:56:07.600)
So she called me and said, is there anything out there?
Lex Fridman (1:56:09.120)
And I said, officially out there.
Lex Fridman (1:56:10.720)
She said, yes.
David Fravor (1:56:11.720)
I said, I don't know anything.
David Fravor (1:56:12.720)
I knew of the unofficial official report, which is that one, but I'm not, you know,
David Fravor (1:56:16.720)
if you don't know about it, I'm not going to tell you because it's not my job and nor
Lex Fridman (1:56:19.760)
did I care.
David Fravor (1:56:20.760)
I mean, did, in that whole situation, you mentioned Lou, I mean, did you think about
Lex Fridman (1:56:26.720)
your impact to your career?
David Fravor (1:56:29.360)
Just to get back to the question, do you think others, other pilots, other thing, other people
David Fravor (1:56:36.080)
like in the Roosevelt are thinking about this kind of thing, why aren't they talking about
Lex Fridman (1:56:40.200)
this?
Lex Fridman (1:56:41.200)
Why are people afraid to talk about this?
David Fravor (1:56:42.680)
Well, honestly, the military and the press, there's a distrust.
Lex Fridman (1:56:46.200)
I'll just tell you that right now.
David Fravor (1:56:47.840)
We typically don't like talking to the press because if I talk to you, you know, especially
David Fravor (1:56:52.920)
when I do, even the TV shows, you know, cause I've been on a couple of shows, when you look
David Fravor (1:56:57.320)
at it, you know, they come to my house and they film me for two hours.
Lex Fridman (1:57:00.840)
And then what you see on the screen is five minutes.
David Fravor (1:57:03.480)
Well, and the other thing with the press, let me give you my perspective from Autonomous
Lex Fridman (1:57:07.040)
Vehicles is the clipping happens, yes.
Lex Fridman (1:57:12.340)
But also the incompetence.
Lex Fridman (1:57:13.640)
Let me just call out journalists.
David Fravor (1:57:17.880)
They're not thinking, I mean, so here's the thing, I have a PhD and I've taken painfully
David Fravor (1:57:25.680)
too many classes from like physics, math, and I also have a deep curiosity about the
David Fravor (1:57:32.200)
world.
Lex Fridman (1:57:33.200)
I read a lot.
David Fravor (1:57:34.640)
That seems to be missing with journalism.
Lex Fridman (1:57:36.000)
So you're talking to a person who is not going to push the story forward in an interesting
David Fravor (1:57:40.920)
way, not the story, but the actual investigation of perhaps one of the most amazing things
Lex Fridman (1:57:47.600)
that humans have witnessed in history.
David Fravor (1:57:49.800)
Like you, it might've been nothing, who knows what you witnessed might've been from a sort
Lex Fridman (1:57:55.240)
of debunking perspective, might've been some kind of trick of mind.
David Fravor (1:57:59.360)
You and others have hallucinated something that could be some simple explanation, but
David Fravor (1:58:05.840)
possibly it was something not of this world and to not do justice to this story from a
David Fravor (1:58:15.360)
scientific perspective, it seems at best negligence.
Lex Fridman (1:58:20.840)
And so that's true for journalists, that's true for other scientists.
David Fravor (1:58:25.340)
It's just a human nature.
David Fravor (1:58:28.360)
If we see something that we can't explain, then sometimes if you just, eh, maybe it's
David Fravor (1:58:34.080)
just me and you let it go away and you don't think about it, maybe it'll just, you ignore
Lex Fridman (1:58:40.040)
it.
Lex Fridman (1:58:41.800)
The other side is the inquisitive mind that says, well, what was that?
Lex Fridman (1:58:44.560)
And I want to dig more into it.
Lex Fridman (1:58:47.260)
And if you look at it or you're going against the norm, you can get ostracized.
Lex Fridman (1:58:53.920)
And if you look at, and Einstein's the perfect example, I mean, when he started coming up
David Fravor (1:58:57.320)
with some of his theories, some of the top physicists in the world were like, dude, you're
Lex Fridman (1:59:02.640)
a nut job.
David Fravor (1:59:03.640)
He's, he's literally proving them, but he didn't have, you know, he proved them in theory,
Lex Fridman (1:59:09.120)
but he didn't have the means to actually do the experiment to prove his theory.
David Fravor (1:59:13.560)
There's a great book that I recommend people read called Proving Einstein Right by Jim
David Fravor (1:59:18.280)
Gates that talks about like the hard work that people try to do years after to try to
David Fravor (1:59:25.380)
experimentally validate the predictions that Einstein made with, with his theories.
Lex Fridman (1:59:32.200)
It's fascinating.
Lex Fridman (1:59:33.200)
But yes, at the time, it's kind of crazy what he's saying.
Lex Fridman (1:59:36.640)
Yeah.
David Fravor (1:59:37.640)
If you look at it back at the time, don't we, we look at it now and go, well, the guy
David Fravor (1:59:40.320)
was a walking genius and he was, but if you go back in time when he was doing it, it was
Lex Fridman (1:59:44.800)
like, what are you talking about?
Lex Fridman (1:59:47.320)
You know?
Lex Fridman (1:59:48.320)
But one of the challenges is your eyewitness.
Lex Fridman (1:59:52.420)
One of the challenges is you're essentially an eyewitness account.
David Fravor (1:59:56.340)
Like we don't have good data.
Lex Fridman (1:59:58.760)
We have very limited data of the incident that you've experienced.
Lex Fridman (20:00.160)
So the three of us that we had all went through, we got, we selected out of primary together.
David Fravor (20:04.120)
We all ended up going jets and that's, that's how, besides from school, I knew her at school
David Fravor (20:08.160)
too.
Lex Fridman (20:09.160)
The long story.
David Fravor (20:10.160)
I got done, uh, got winged.
David Fravor (20:11.160)
It took me two years to the day from the time I graduated the Naval Academy until I got
David Fravor (20:14.600)
my wings and, uh, through some luck, uh, I ended up getting A6s, uh, on the West coast,
Lex Fridman (20:21.440)
which is a side by side, uh, bomber.
Lex Fridman (20:23.360)
So it's a pilot on the left seat and the Bombardier navigators on the right seat.
Lex Fridman (20:26.320)
It was built in the sixties.
David Fravor (20:28.320)
It is all weather, uh, and it flies low at night and it's got a terrain mapping radar.
Lex Fridman (20:33.200)
How many, I guess, is that a good term to use fighter jets as a broad category for,
Lex Fridman (20:38.900)
for the public?
Lex Fridman (20:39.900)
Yeah, that's fine.
Lex Fridman (20:40.900)
How many fighter jets are side by side like that?
David Fravor (20:43.360)
That was, uh, in the Navy, that was the only one, uh, the Air Force, the F111 was a side
David Fravor (20:47.960)
by side, but the Navy, it was the A6 and then there's the EA6B, which is a derivative of
Lex Fridman (20:52.560)
that.
Lex Fridman (20:53.560)
And now that those are all gone, the EA6B is just went away a few years ago.
Lex Fridman (20:56.560)
And now the, uh, E18G Growler, um, is the replacement for the A6B.
David Fravor (21:01.880)
There was never a replacement for the A6, uh, that I flew.
David Fravor (21:04.960)
It really became the F18, which, uh, the A6 could go quite a bit further distance wise
David Fravor (21:10.400)
by fuel, uh, then the Hornet and, uh, the Hornet is the F18.
Lex Fridman (21:16.040)
Is there usually two people in the plane, but they're usually like in front and behind?
David Fravor (21:21.120)
In a, the modern two seaters, yes.
Lex Fridman (21:22.840)
Uh, but most of the tactical airplanes in the world today are single seat.
Lex Fridman (21:26.320)
Single seat, just one person?
David Fravor (21:27.980)
One person, with the exception of, I'll probably, someone will yell at me, but really with the
David Fravor (21:32.400)
exception of the F15E Strike Eagle and the F18F Super Hornet, which is the F is a two
David Fravor (21:37.880)
seater and the G is also a two seater, but it's more of an electronic attack by say full
David Fravor (21:42.440)
up fighter bomber.
Lex Fridman (21:44.400)
So most of the time that you've flown in your, like I said, 18 year career is, was it two
Lex Fridman (21:51.560)
seater?
Lex Fridman (21:52.560)
That was about half and half.
Lex Fridman (21:53.560)
So I started off in A6 was a two seater.
David Fravor (21:55.940)
Then I went to single seat F18s and I flew those, uh, all the way up until 2000 and let
David Fravor (22:03.400)
me think 2001 to the end of 2001.
Lex Fridman (22:07.800)
And then I shifted over and started flying the Super Hornets and I've flown both of those,
David Fravor (22:11.120)
the E's and the S, but I deployed when I had command of VFA 41, I had the two seat, they
Lex Fridman (22:16.720)
were F squadron.
Lex Fridman (22:18.040)
So you eventually ended up commanding the, the Strike Fighter Squadron 41.
Lex Fridman (22:25.920)
I love the, the name, the Black Aces.
David Fravor (22:28.920)
What, uh, is there some parts of that journey that are amazing, parts of it that are tough
Lex Fridman (22:35.560)
that kind of stand out?
David Fravor (22:37.000)
To me, it was one, it was a huge honor.
David Fravor (22:39.640)
Uh, and I got to serve with, uh, you know, I got pulled up because the, the guy, the,
David Fravor (22:44.880)
the people that are exos, cause we fleet up, you go from the number two guy to the number
Lex Fridman (22:47.840)
one guy.
Lex Fridman (22:49.000)
So the XO becomes the CEO.
Lex Fridman (22:50.400)
So the executive officer becomes the commanding officer.
Lex Fridman (22:53.200)
So I had worked with, uh, now soon to be vice Admiral Weitzel, uh, was the, he was commander
David Fravor (23:00.400)
Weitzel at the time was the XO and he really wanted, because he knew there was a little
David Fravor (23:04.840)
bit of a problem when the Super Hornets came into L'more, L'more had been a single seat,
Lex Fridman (23:10.400)
a fighter community, uh, since the forever.
Lex Fridman (23:16.100)
And now all of a sudden you've got the F18F coming in, which has the weapon systems operators
Lex Fridman (23:19.860)
in the back that are not pilots, they're weapon systems operators.
Lex Fridman (23:23.480)
And there's a difference.
David Fravor (23:24.760)
Um, and Kenny is a weapon systems operator and, uh, Kenny knew because of my A6 background
David Fravor (23:31.360)
that I have a switch that I can go one seat, two seat, one seat, two seat.
David Fravor (23:34.880)
Because when you fly two seat, there's a lot of stuff that the pilot will offload and take
David Fravor (23:40.080)
the advantage of the weapon systems operator.
Lex Fridman (23:42.680)
And it's not that one plus one equals two in that environment because it really, there's
David Fravor (23:47.120)
a huge amount of capabilities that the single seat has and the autonomy that comes for the
Lex Fridman (23:51.840)
ability to make decisions quickly and how well the airplane flies.
Lex Fridman (23:56.040)
But it does, it does equal more than one.
David Fravor (23:58.560)
I would say that one plus one with two people as well as a minimum of 1.5 because you've
David Fravor (24:04.680)
got an extra head, you've got extra eyes, you've got someone that can monitor systems.
Lex Fridman (24:09.440)
The airplanes can do two things at once.
David Fravor (24:11.000)
I mean, there's an incredible amount of capability that we add when we do that.
David Fravor (24:14.320)
Can we just pause on that just for me, from like a human factors perspective and also
David Fravor (24:18.960)
an AI perspective, what's, how difficult, uh, so there's like when there's two people,
David Fravor (24:26.480)
there's also a third person that's the AI part, the some level of automation like autopilot
David Fravor (24:33.000)
maybe.
Lex Fridman (24:34.000)
That's correct.
David Fravor (24:35.000)
Maybe you can kind of talk about the psychology of like, you said making decisions really
Lex Fridman (24:39.960)
quick, 80%, how do you deal with another brain working with you?
Lex Fridman (24:46.360)
And then also the automation, is there an interesting interplay that you get to learn?
Lex Fridman (24:52.260)
And also as that changed throughout your career, I imagine it got, it gotten better in terms
Lex Fridman (24:57.240)
of the automation or perhaps not?
Lex Fridman (24:59.040)
Well, I can tell you, so let's, let's start just, no, this is, this is good.
David Fravor (25:03.320)
This is good.
Lex Fridman (25:04.320)
And this is, I'm enjoying this because now we actually get to talk about something other
David Fravor (25:07.280)
than a Tic Tac.
Lex Fridman (25:08.280)
So, um, so let's start with the A6.
David Fravor (25:10.760)
The A6 was really an analog airplane, uh, that was built in the sixties.
Lex Fridman (25:15.840)
All right.
Lex Fridman (25:16.840)
And there's been studies done on the crew coordination, which is the interaction between
Lex Fridman (25:21.320)
the pilot and the bombardier navigator.
Lex Fridman (25:23.720)
So we would fly low at night in the mountains.
Lex Fridman (25:26.680)
So I was stationed up in Whidbey Island, Washington.
Lex Fridman (25:28.960)
So you've got the Cascades and incredible amount of time.
Lex Fridman (25:33.160)
And we would get in the simulators because unlike normally people think terrain following
Lex Fridman (25:37.400)
and there's the radars, the 111, the B1 has a system like this, but it'll, the radar can
Lex Fridman (25:41.640)
see and it'll fly.
David Fravor (25:42.640)
It basically flies a straight line.
Lex Fridman (25:43.680)
So it goes up and over mountains and back down and up and over mountains where the A6
David Fravor (25:47.480)
was really manual.
Lex Fridman (25:49.700)
So you do this low level routes where you're going to, you're going to fly in the mountains
David Fravor (25:52.360)
at night.
David Fravor (25:53.360)
You're going to be at, you know, 500 to a thousand feet above the ground, ripping through
David Fravor (25:56.920)
like fog layers, cause you don't need to see outside.
Lex Fridman (26:00.600)
You're literally flying a little TV screen and radar.
Lex Fridman (26:03.080)
What are you looking at most of the time?
Lex Fridman (26:04.320)
So you're just at a screen.
David Fravor (26:05.640)
It's this really primitive.
David Fravor (26:08.160)
If you look at it now, what we did, you'd think, wow, that was crazy, but it was really
David Fravor (26:11.360)
fun.
Lex Fridman (26:12.360)
So is it similar to like the FLIR stuff?
David Fravor (26:14.120)
Is that, is, no, this thing is totally radar based.
David Fravor (26:17.760)
Now the airplane had a FLIR ball as a target recognition and multi sensor was called a
David Fravor (26:22.360)
tram.
Lex Fridman (26:23.360)
You're looking at like basically like dots of hard objects.
David Fravor (26:27.320)
No, actually what it is is the, the bomb of your navigator had a radar and he was getting
Lex Fridman (26:31.440)
raw feed off of a pulse radar in front.
David Fravor (26:33.680)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (26:34.680)
So it's just basically mapping the mountain.
Lex Fridman (26:35.920)
So if you look at a mountain on a radar and you're coming up on it, the front side is
Lex Fridman (26:39.840)
going to be, it's going to give you a really bright return.
Lex Fridman (26:41.900)
And then the backside, it's just going to be a giant shadow because you can't see on
Lex Fridman (26:45.680)
the other side.
Lex Fridman (26:47.740)
So the Bombardier navigators would do that and we, they would have charts and they could
David Fravor (26:50.800)
shade their charts knowing that, Hey, if we turn a little bit left here, we can get in
David Fravor (26:53.880)
this valley.
David Fravor (26:54.880)
We can sneak up this valley and then go around the backside of the mountain, which is what
David Fravor (26:57.880)
the airplane would do.
Lex Fridman (26:59.200)
And so, and sorry to interrupt, I'm going to just keep asking dumb questions, I apologize.
Lex Fridman (27:03.600)
But the pilot, can you, can you at a high level say what the pilot does versus the Bombardier?
Lex Fridman (27:09.160)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (27:10.780)
So you're, you're actually just control.
Lex Fridman (27:13.240)
I'm flying the jet.
David Fravor (27:14.240)
The throttle's the stick and I have a, it's about a, probably a four inch or six inch
Lex Fridman (27:20.480)
wide by maybe four inches, five inches high.
David Fravor (27:24.560)
It looks like it's literally a CRT.
Lex Fridman (27:26.880)
That's how old it is.
David Fravor (27:27.880)
A CRT screen.
Lex Fridman (27:28.880)
And what it would do, what the radar would do is the, the, the Bombardier navigator is
David Fravor (27:33.160)
looking at his radar and he's looking out about 12 and a half miles in front of the
Lex Fridman (27:36.520)
airplane.
Lex Fridman (27:37.520)
So he has the range really scoped down cause the radar can see a lot further.
David Fravor (27:40.440)
He's looking at about 12 and a half miles when we're in the terrain mode where we're
David Fravor (27:43.360)
dodging mountains and stuff.
Lex Fridman (27:45.280)
And what the pilot has is there's, they're called range bins and there's eight of them.
Lex Fridman (27:49.360)
So the very far range bin is the 12 and a half mile, you know, and the closest range
David Fravor (27:55.320)
bin, it's a thing and it'll be like between like a half a mile and or a quarter mile to
David Fravor (28:00.600)
three quarters of a mile.
Lex Fridman (28:01.600)
And the next one might be three quarters of a mile to two miles.
Lex Fridman (28:04.680)
And then it just keeps going out like that.
Lex Fridman (28:06.300)
So if there's a mountain in front, let's say we're on a flat plane and there's a mountain
David Fravor (28:10.900)
out in the distance at 15 miles.
Lex Fridman (28:12.720)
And we were just driving right at it.
Lex Fridman (28:14.940)
So when we get to the point where it hits 12 and a half miles where the radar is going
David Fravor (28:18.360)
to see it on his scope, my 12th, my range bin for that would pop up and it would show
David Fravor (28:23.400)
like a big bump, like a mountain.
Lex Fridman (28:25.640)
And then as I got closer to it, the next range bin would pop up and show it.
Lex Fridman (28:29.440)
And I could see that that bump was moving towards me.
Lex Fridman (28:32.320)
And then if I turned a little bit, you know, to go over here, I'd see the mountain go over
David Fravor (28:36.240)
to the right hand side and I could do that, but it wasn't like a video game.
Lex Fridman (28:41.460)
It's literally like, if you think of the original Atari's.
David Fravor (28:44.440)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (28:45.440)
But you build up, I imagine that you start to get a really deep sense of like the actual
David Fravor (28:51.960)
3D environment based on that little Atari's solid display.
Lex Fridman (28:56.600)
You're exactly right.
Lex Fridman (28:57.600)
And you have to, you have to train.
Lex Fridman (28:59.100)
So there's been studies, as a matter of fact, a lot of the basis and people probably argue
David Fravor (29:03.160)
with me, but it's true.
David Fravor (29:04.280)
There were studies done watching A6 crews in our simulators, we call it the WIST, the
David Fravor (29:09.160)
systems trainer, and it was not even a motion, it just kind of sat there and you just, you
David Fravor (29:13.680)
could fly these things and they had terrain that they would inject into the system.
Lex Fridman (29:17.680)
But the crew coordination, so you get, so my first fleet bombardier navigator, who I'll
David Fravor (29:24.720)
name him, his name's Chris Sato, he works at Apple, pretty high up, MIT grad, I think
David Fravor (29:32.760)
computer engineering, he's scary smart.
Lex Fridman (29:36.720)
So Chris could really work, as a matter of fact, all the guys I flew with, so there's
David Fravor (29:40.760)
another guy, Matt, who also worked at Apple, who's now at SAP, we did our first night traps
Lex Fridman (29:44.320)
together.
David Fravor (29:45.320)
The bond between us, I mean, it's one of those things that you just, you're never going to
David Fravor (29:48.440)
forget, but Chris and I, when we started flying together, we were actually the most junior
David Fravor (29:51.680)
crew in the squadron.
David Fravor (29:55.480)
We'd spent a lot of time training and Chris was amazing at how he could work the system,
Lex Fridman (2:00:03.920)
So let me kind of dig in, let me just ask some questions of maybe to see if there's,
Lex Fridman (2:00:10.880)
just to paint more and more of the picture.
David Fravor (2:00:13.120)
One you kind of mentioned, so Tic Tac Shape, let's break apart two situations.
Lex Fridman (2:00:18.640)
One is the video.
David Fravor (2:00:19.920)
Let's look at the actual eye account, the eyewitness account that you saw with your
Lex Fridman (2:00:23.820)
own eyes.
Lex Fridman (2:00:25.320)
What's the, what can you say about the shape of the thing?
Lex Fridman (2:00:28.300)
Is there interesting aspects outside of the Tic Tac?
Lex Fridman (2:00:30.800)
Like, is there any appendages?
David Fravor (2:00:33.300)
Is there some texture to it that, no smooth white Tic Tac, you know, we don't, you don't
David Fravor (2:00:42.320)
see there's no, no wings, no visible propulsion, no windows, no probes that we could see.
David Fravor (2:00:50.680)
We don't notice, like I said, we don't see the little things on the bottom of it until
David Fravor (2:00:53.800)
we see the video in the TV mode when it's zoomed in, right before it's shortly, you
Lex Fridman (2:00:59.760)
kind of see them zoom in.
David Fravor (2:01:00.760)
You don't see it typically on the YouTube stuff that's out there, or remember we're
Lex Fridman (2:01:05.840)
looking at the original tape, so there's not, there's basically no degradation.
Lex Fridman (2:01:09.960)
But when you saw with your eyes, there's no kind of appendages.
Lex Fridman (2:01:12.680)
No, none.
Lex Fridman (2:01:13.680)
What about, like somebody asked, a lot of people asked you questions.
Lex Fridman (2:01:17.240)
So I appreciate you spending your time here.
David Fravor (2:01:19.560)
Let me ask some of them.
Lex Fridman (2:01:21.560)
Did you, I mean, you chased it, so we flew close to it, relatively speaking.
Lex Fridman (2:01:26.200)
Was there, did you feel any wake?
Lex Fridman (2:01:30.160)
Like any, did you feel it in any way in terms of your interaction, like aerodynamically?
David Fravor (2:01:36.240)
No.
Lex Fridman (2:01:37.240)
Nothing.
David Fravor (2:01:38.240)
Nothing.
Lex Fridman (2:01:39.240)
So another aspect of it, there's an interesting thing you've developed a feel for, for objects
David Fravor (2:01:46.580)
in the air.
Lex Fridman (2:01:47.580)
Did you feel like it was surprised by your arrival?
David Fravor (2:01:53.160)
Or did it, let me ask a few questions around it.
Lex Fridman (2:01:56.080)
So did you, did it feel like the thing was surprised?
Lex Fridman (2:02:00.040)
Did it feel like it wanted to be seen, almost to show off its capability?
Lex Fridman (2:02:08.080)
And did it, what did it feel like relative to if you were doing a, an air fight against
Lex Fridman (2:02:15.480)
a sort of like a, I don't know, a foreign jet?
Lex Fridman (2:02:20.280)
So one, I think it, I think it knew we were there when we showed up.
David Fravor (2:02:25.000)
It's just, it's me.
Lex Fridman (2:02:27.000)
It's kind of like an animal.
David Fravor (2:02:28.000)
If you've ever been around deer in a field, you know, the deer will look up and if it
David Fravor (2:02:30.920)
sees you and you're on the other side of the field, it'll actually go no threat and it'll
David Fravor (2:02:34.440)
start eating.
Lex Fridman (2:02:35.440)
You know, they don't put their tail up.
David Fravor (2:02:36.440)
As you move closer to the deer, then it goes, oh, it's there and I'm going to react or I'm
Lex Fridman (2:02:39.320)
going to move.
Lex Fridman (2:02:40.800)
So as we were up high and it's down doing whatever it was doing, you know, which I don't
Lex Fridman (2:02:47.440)
know if someone asks, what do you think?
David Fravor (2:02:48.440)
I go, oh, maybe it was communicating with something.
Lex Fridman (2:02:50.160)
I joked on good morning America.
David Fravor (2:02:52.080)
Maybe it's like talking to the whales, kind of like Star Trek, you know, and actually
Lex Fridman (2:02:56.000)
use that clip.
David Fravor (2:02:57.000)
It was kind of funny, but yeah, we're a little human centric.
David Fravor (2:03:00.200)
We think like it would, it'd show up to talk to us, but maybe he's talking to the dolphins.
David Fravor (2:03:04.360)
Yeah.
David Fravor (2:03:05.360)
It was to whatever, you know, cause it was hanging around that whitewater and I don't
David Fravor (2:03:07.560)
know if it was, there's something there as a seamount.
Lex Fridman (2:03:09.300)
We just didn't find it again.
David Fravor (2:03:10.300)
I don't know.
Lex Fridman (2:03:11.880)
But once we started to descend and it actually reoriented its longitudinal axis and it started
David Fravor (2:03:16.720)
mirroring us coming up and it was obviously where we were there and it was really coming
Lex Fridman (2:03:19.880)
up.
David Fravor (2:03:20.880)
Just, you know, you figure I'm at 20 and it's coming up and it ends up getting up to 12
Lex Fridman (2:03:25.800)
where I cut across the circle.
David Fravor (2:03:27.200)
I think it was very aware that we were there because it interacted.
Lex Fridman (2:03:30.140)
We call it a two circle fight when you're fighting another airplane.
Lex Fridman (2:03:34.360)
But you know, was it, was, were we afraid?
Lex Fridman (2:03:40.520)
I don't think so.
David Fravor (2:03:41.520)
I mean, and to me it was more curious, you know, the curiosity overcomes any fear that
Lex Fridman (2:03:44.680)
you would have.
Lex Fridman (2:03:45.680)
And I always felt to be honest, if I was inside the airplane, especially as long as much time
David Fravor (2:03:51.240)
as I'd spent inside the airplane flying and doing stuff, I felt totally, it was like a
David Fravor (2:03:56.740)
safe zone.
David Fravor (2:03:57.740)
I mean, I felt totally comfortable inside the airplane as most, you can't, if you're
David Fravor (2:04:01.880)
in the airplane and you feel scared, it's not the job for you.
Lex Fridman (2:04:04.620)
You have to feel that because the airplane is part of you now.
David Fravor (2:04:08.120)
You know, I am inside, I have the stick, I have the throttles, I've got my wizzo in the
Lex Fridman (2:04:11.600)
back seat, he's running all the displays.
David Fravor (2:04:14.280)
We are a team.
Lex Fridman (2:04:15.280)
We're in the state of the art airplane, you know, brand new.
David Fravor (2:04:20.720)
You feel pretty good.
Lex Fridman (2:04:21.720)
And then you get something that, you know, can climb from the surface up and then accelerate
David Fravor (2:04:26.320)
like it did, like it was like no big deal, you know, for an airplane, if you just put
David Fravor (2:04:30.160)
me from a standstill, let's just say slow flight, just get me at a hundred knots above
David Fravor (2:04:34.800)
the water.
Lex Fridman (2:04:35.800)
And for me to, you can't just start a climb, I'd have to lower the nose, I'd have to accelerate
Lex Fridman (2:04:39.520)
and then I'd have to start coming up and this thing just like, just did it like it was like
Lex Fridman (2:04:44.620)
no big deal.
David Fravor (2:04:45.620)
Yeah.
David Fravor (2:04:46.620)
You mentioned that like kind of your reaction to it was, it like, it's something that you
David Fravor (2:04:52.360)
would love to fly almost.
Lex Fridman (2:04:53.960)
So this object, just the curiosity you experienced is like, like what it almost like, what the
David Fravor (2:05:01.880)
heck is that piece of technology and I want to fly it.
Lex Fridman (2:05:05.080)
Like what made you feel like it's something that you could fly?
Lex Fridman (2:05:10.640)
Do you think it's something that a human could fly?
David Fravor (2:05:13.700)
Like in terms of interpreting what you saw as a piece of technology, because another
David Fravor (2:05:18.160)
perspective on it is it was not that the thing under the water was the key thing.
Lex Fridman (2:05:26.920)
And what you were seeing is some kind of projection or something that like, I don't think it was
David Fravor (2:05:32.320)
a projection.
Lex Fridman (2:05:33.320)
I think it was a real object.
David Fravor (2:05:34.320)
It was an op, a physical hard object that could be flyed.
Lex Fridman (2:05:37.400)
Oh yeah.
David Fravor (2:05:38.400)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:05:39.400)
I think all four of us will tell you the same thing.
David Fravor (2:05:40.880)
It wasn't, it wasn't, this was not, cause you go, okay, let's just go on.
Lex Fridman (2:05:44.960)
It's a light projection.
David Fravor (2:05:45.960)
Well, if we were both sitting next to each other and we were looking at it from the exact
David Fravor (2:05:50.080)
same angle and all that, and I go, okay, there's a, in theory you could have that, but with
David Fravor (2:05:54.640)
an 8,000 foot altitude difference flying, you know, and they're, you know, she's probably
Lex Fridman (2:05:58.560)
not directly above me.
David Fravor (2:05:59.800)
She's kind of hanging out watching this whole thing happen.
David Fravor (2:06:02.680)
You know, you're getting two different perspectives from two different altitudes over a clear
David Fravor (2:06:06.760)
blue.
David Fravor (2:06:07.760)
You know, if you've ever been at sea and I don't mean like coast, I mean like when you
David Fravor (2:06:10.640)
get out at sea, the ocean is the bluest, it's incredible.
David Fravor (2:06:15.480)
You know, you've got a bright white object over a deep blue ocean that you got pretty
David Fravor (2:06:19.160)
high contrast.
Lex Fridman (2:06:20.800)
And for this thing just to disappear, it wasn't, I'm telling you, I would, I mean, I know we,
David Fravor (2:06:29.880)
we all have the same recollection of what happened.
David Fravor (2:06:33.120)
You know, there's some details because it's so long ago, but for the most part, we know
Lex Fridman (2:06:36.560)
what we saw and we all came back and looked at each other like, what the hell was that?
Lex Fridman (2:06:40.480)
What if, I mean, do you think about the thing under the water that's not often talked about
Lex Fridman (2:06:45.080)
if there's something under the water, couldn't have been something gigantic?
Lex Fridman (2:06:50.480)
It could be.
Lex Fridman (2:06:51.480)
What?
Lex Fridman (2:06:52.480)
Like, do you ever think of this?
David Fravor (2:06:53.480)
Big ship comes up.
David Fravor (2:06:54.480)
I mean, that's why as a person, so I love like swimming out into the ocean by miles
Lex Fridman (2:06:57.840)
and Olympic swimmers.
David Fravor (2:06:59.160)
Like I love that feeling, but I'm also terrified when I swim because the abyss, it could, anything
David Fravor (2:07:04.040)
could be under there.
David Fravor (2:07:06.080)
Like there's not enough focus on that perhaps because there's no visibility, but is it,
David Fravor (2:07:12.760)
is there anything interesting to say about the possibility that was anything underneath
Lex Fridman (2:07:16.560)
there?
David Fravor (2:07:17.560)
Could be.
Lex Fridman (2:07:18.560)
I mean, think about it.
Lex Fridman (2:07:19.560)
If you're going to hide on this planet, what's the least explored spot on the planet?
Lex Fridman (2:07:25.480)
Two thirds of it's the ocean.
David Fravor (2:07:28.080)
There's literally, I mean, come on, the Malaysia airplane, the triple seven, it was a triple
Lex Fridman (2:07:34.840)
seven that crashed.
David Fravor (2:07:35.840)
You know, they turned, they didn't go where they're supposed to and they just disappeared
Lex Fridman (2:07:38.640)
and they've been searching for it and they found pieces of it, but you would think there's
David Fravor (2:07:42.320)
large objects that, you know, when that thing hit the water, depending on how it broke up,
David Fravor (2:07:46.600)
there's big pieces that would be, you'd find something, they haven't found anything except
Lex Fridman (2:07:49.480)
what floated.
Lex Fridman (2:07:50.480)
So to hide something underwater I think would be easy.
Lex Fridman (2:07:54.720)
So okay.
David Fravor (2:07:55.720)
Let's go a little bit in speculation land, but it's the best, it's the best we can do,
Lex Fridman (2:08:00.000)
which is the basic question of what do you think was it?
Lex Fridman (2:08:05.040)
So if you had to put money on it, is it like advanced human created technology?
Lex Fridman (2:08:11.880)
Is it alien technology?
Lex Fridman (2:08:13.720)
Is it an unknown physical phenomena?
David Fravor (2:08:16.880)
You know, like a ball lightning, for example, there's a lot of fascinating things we probably
Lex Fridman (2:08:20.440)
humans don't really understand.
David Fravor (2:08:22.440)
Is it like I said, some perception cognition that led you some kind of hallucination that
Lex Fridman (2:08:29.040)
made you to misinterpret the things you were seeing?
David Fravor (2:08:31.240)
Let me put those things on the table.
David Fravor (2:08:33.600)
Or is it misinterpretation of some known physical phenomena like an ice cloud or something like
Lex Fridman (2:08:39.520)
that?
Lex Fridman (2:08:40.520)
What do you think it was?
David Fravor (2:08:41.520)
Definitely.
David Fravor (2:08:42.520)
I don't think it's an ice cloud because ice clouds don't fly around and react to you.
Lex Fridman (2:08:47.480)
Do I think it was a light?
Lex Fridman (2:08:49.080)
I'd say no, because of the aspects and what we looked and watched it do.
David Fravor (2:08:52.280)
I'd say no.
Lex Fridman (2:08:53.280)
What do you mean by light?
David Fravor (2:08:54.720)
Like a light ball, you know, some type of perception, you know, there's their experience
David Fravor (2:08:59.840)
like plasma, you can do plasma and you can go, oh, I can see it, but it's really not,
David Fravor (2:09:04.000)
you know, it's plasma.
Lex Fridman (2:09:05.240)
I don't think so.
Lex Fridman (2:09:07.240)
So you would see distortions, I think, as it moved.
Lex Fridman (2:09:09.760)
Maybe not.
David Fravor (2:09:10.760)
I'm not a theoretical physicist and some, you know, I'm not an MIT.
David Fravor (2:09:16.280)
I would say no, I mean, it looked from all my experience and I had quite a bit of it
David Fravor (2:09:21.880)
when this happened, no, I think it was a hard object.
Lex Fridman (2:09:27.240)
It was aware that we were there.
David Fravor (2:09:28.620)
It reacted exactly like if I was another airplane and I had to come up and do something exactly
Lex Fridman (2:09:33.560)
what I would do.
David Fravor (2:09:35.180)
You know, it mirrored me.
Lex Fridman (2:09:36.180)
It wasn't aggressive.
David Fravor (2:09:37.720)
You know, there's talk, oh, it flopped behind us.
Lex Fridman (2:09:39.840)
It was never offensive on us.
David Fravor (2:09:41.320)
It never did that.
Lex Fridman (2:09:42.680)
It just mirrored us.
Lex Fridman (2:09:43.680)
So as we're coming down, it's just like, you know, you're kind of, you know, you said you
David Fravor (2:09:47.920)
do martial arts, you know, or wrestling, you know, you see people out on the, when they
David Fravor (2:09:52.840)
get into the ring, especially with collegiate wrestling, cause my roommate in college was
Lex Fridman (2:09:55.980)
a collegiate wrestler.
Lex Fridman (2:09:56.980)
So I de facto became a wrestler cause he beat me up every night and we joke.
Lex Fridman (2:10:01.640)
I talked to him literally probably three, four times a week.
Lex Fridman (2:10:05.760)
But you know, you see wrestlers when they get out, they kind of, you're kind of feeling
Lex Fridman (2:10:08.480)
each other as you walk and boxers do the same thing.
David Fravor (2:10:10.840)
It was doing that same thing.
David Fravor (2:10:11.840)
It's like, what's going on as it comes around, as it comes around and then it was like, Hey,
David Fravor (2:10:15.640)
we're going to get here.
Lex Fridman (2:10:16.640)
And then when I got too close to it, you know, it decided I'm out of here.
Lex Fridman (2:10:19.920)
And then it did something that we've never seen.
David Fravor (2:10:22.220)
The other question is what if I didn't cut across the circle, what if I just kept going
Lex Fridman (2:10:25.240)
around a circle?
Lex Fridman (2:10:26.240)
We just keep going.
David Fravor (2:10:27.240)
I could have just watched it.
David Fravor (2:10:28.240)
I mean, my one regret out of the whole thing is we have a camera in our helmet and the
David Fravor (2:10:32.440)
joint helmet.
David Fravor (2:10:33.440)
There's a little camera, but we never use it because it's nauseating to watch because
David Fravor (2:10:35.920)
you've ever put a GoPro on someone's head where they're looking around like this all
Lex Fridman (2:10:38.600)
the time, it'll nauseate you.
Lex Fridman (2:10:40.860)
So we never turn that on and all, you know, it's the one thing I didn't do is reach down
Lex Fridman (2:10:44.200)
and hit the switch, you know, and then we didn't go back and cause our tapes didn't
David Fravor (2:10:47.840)
have anything cause we didn't get it on radar.
David Fravor (2:10:51.800)
Because I tried to lock it up because I can move the radar with my head, but I couldn't,
David Fravor (2:10:55.520)
it wouldn't lock.
Lex Fridman (2:10:56.520)
The radar wouldn't lock.
Lex Fridman (2:10:57.520)
And so, so then the question is, and this is unanswerable, but let's try to get some
Lex Fridman (2:11:04.440)
hints at it.
Lex Fridman (2:11:05.760)
Do you think it's human, like advanced human created technology that's simply top secret
Lex Fridman (2:11:12.240)
that we're just not aware of?
Lex Fridman (2:11:15.160)
Or is it not something not of this world?
Lex Fridman (2:11:18.620)
So you, if you'd asked me in 2004, I just said, I don't know if you ask me now.
Lex Fridman (2:11:26.120)
So we're coming up on 16 years ago for a technology like that, you know, and let's assume that
David Fravor (2:11:34.760)
it didn't have a conventional propulsion system in it because I don't think it did.
David Fravor (2:11:40.720)
I would like to think that if we had a technology that would advance mankind leaps and bounds
Lex Fridman (2:11:44.760)
from what we normally do, then it would start coming out.
Lex Fridman (2:11:48.060)
But to hide something like that for 16 years, you know, and I understand, you know, and
David Fravor (2:11:53.280)
I don't speak for the United States government and I never will speak for the United States
David Fravor (2:11:56.160)
government, but I understand how some of that stuff works for classification levels and
Lex Fridman (2:11:59.020)
why we classify stuff, you know, is it detrimental to national defense?
Lex Fridman (2:12:03.400)
But there's a point where you have to look and go, if we had a technology like this that
David Fravor (2:12:06.680)
could literally change the way mankind travels, how we get things into space, our ability
Lex Fridman (2:12:13.960)
to do things, you know, you talk about, you know, are we going to go to Mars?
David Fravor (2:12:17.080)
Well, if you have something that has the ability to go, because remember, these things were
David Fravor (2:12:20.120)
coming down when the cruiser tractor from above 80,000 feet, which is space, and they
David Fravor (2:12:24.400)
would come down and they would come straight down, they'd hang out at like 20,000 feet
Lex Fridman (2:12:27.640)
and then three or four hours later, they'd go back up.
David Fravor (2:12:30.000)
You don't have anything that can come down, hang out and once, you know, and I'm talking
David Fravor (2:12:34.620)
hold out in a spot.
Lex Fridman (2:12:35.620)
Well, we all know there's winds.
David Fravor (2:12:36.720)
They're not drifting like a balloon.
David Fravor (2:12:38.020)
They're just sitting there and then they would go back up and they tracked up to the, when
David Fravor (2:12:42.320)
I talked to the controller, he's like, we've seen up to 10 of these things.
David Fravor (2:12:46.180)
There's other guys and it was raining and all this other, let's just say they tracked
David Fravor (2:12:50.120)
a groups of these things coming down, hanging out and going up.
Lex Fridman (2:12:55.320)
So it's not just propulsion and the way it moves, it's also fuel.
David Fravor (2:12:59.280)
It's everything.
Lex Fridman (2:13:00.280)
So...
David Fravor (2:13:01.280)
The whole of it indicates a kind of technology that's highly advanced, but you don't think
David Fravor (2:13:08.200)
in your sense that you actually don't know, but you know more than a lot of people, in
David Fravor (2:13:14.600)
your sense, the top secret military technology, if you think about skunkworks, if you think
Lex Fridman (2:13:20.200)
about it like that, cannot be more than 15 years ahead.
David Fravor (2:13:25.240)
I would say for a leap like that, and a perfect example in modern times is the 117.
David Fravor (2:13:32.480)
Because now a lot of the data on the 117 is out like it was developed at this time.
David Fravor (2:13:36.480)
It flew for this long before it was actually acknowledged by the United States government.
Lex Fridman (2:13:40.000)
What's the 117?
David Fravor (2:13:41.000)
That's the stealth fighter, the original stealth fighter, not the B2, but the stealth fighter.
Lex Fridman (2:13:44.560)
So you look at that, you know, yeah, you can, I think you can hide things for a while.
Lex Fridman (2:13:51.520)
But I think a technology, a leap, I mean, this is not a, hey, we developed this and
Lex Fridman (2:13:56.440)
we're kind of pushing the edge of technology.
David Fravor (2:14:00.000)
This is a giant leap in technology.
Lex Fridman (2:14:02.400)
You know, and the other one is, do we have the basis to do that?
David Fravor (2:14:06.160)
You know, because usually when you have a technology like that, universities, especially
David Fravor (2:14:10.360)
the one you're working at, MIT, a lot of the leading edge stuff is coming out of the top
David Fravor (2:14:15.300)
tier universities, you know, so you've got MIT, you've got Caltech, you've got Stanford,
David Fravor (2:14:19.480)
Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, Carnegie Mellon, I'm just naming schools, Naval Postgraduate
David Fravor (2:14:24.680)
School is another one.
Lex Fridman (2:14:27.400)
There's usually indicators, there's papers of, hey, this is where we're going.
David Fravor (2:14:31.360)
I don't think there's a whole bunch of papers on developing a gravity based propulsion system
David Fravor (2:14:36.260)
that literally, I've got an object, because how do you, how much power would it cost to
David Fravor (2:14:41.040)
create a gravity field of your own that could actually be strong enough to counter the giant
Lex Fridman (2:14:46.980)
orb that we live on?
David Fravor (2:14:48.400)
Also by the way, you mentioned gravity based.
David Fravor (2:14:50.560)
That's kind of like the hypothesizing that people do in terms of propulsion, like what
David Fravor (2:14:56.080)
kind of propulsion would have to be involved in order to result in that kind of movement.
David Fravor (2:15:03.240)
To me, all the gravity discussion just seems insane from a physics perspective, but of
David Fravor (2:15:07.320)
course it would seem insane until it's not.
Lex Fridman (2:15:13.880)
Because remember, we only know what we know, which is very little.
Lex Fridman (2:15:19.280)
Someone has to think out of the box to go, is this possible at all?
Lex Fridman (2:15:27.360)
So you're saying that if you had to bet money, all your money, it would be something that's
David Fravor (2:15:32.560)
alien technology, so it's not human created technology.
David Fravor (2:15:37.320)
Well, I don't like to get into little green men, but I would say that I don't think we've
David Fravor (2:15:41.360)
developed it.
Lex Fridman (2:15:42.360)
I don't think we've developed it.
David Fravor (2:15:45.280)
Because the other one, someone asked me, they said, what if there wasn't, maybe it was just
Lex Fridman (2:15:48.080)
a drone, maybe it was a UAV that got sent here from someplace else.
David Fravor (2:15:53.640)
I mean, we've got stuff out there flying around.
Lex Fridman (2:15:57.600)
So I don't know.
David Fravor (2:15:59.800)
I mean, I'd like to sit around and talk to some of the giant brains that think this stuff
Lex Fridman (2:16:03.800)
up.
David Fravor (2:16:04.800)
I was supposed to be on a podcast with one of them.
Lex Fridman (2:16:07.680)
Which topic?
Lex Fridman (2:16:08.920)
Which you mean for drones?
Lex Fridman (2:16:11.240)
Just space travel technology.
David Fravor (2:16:14.120)
Because if you look at where we're going, because everyone talks about Mars, and you're
Lex Fridman (2:16:18.040)
okay, and we're, hey, are we going to be able to colonize?
Lex Fridman (2:16:20.760)
And I know Elon is big into that.
Lex Fridman (2:16:22.080)
Yeah, what do you think about Elon, SpaceX, NASA?
David Fravor (2:16:26.060)
We put humans back up there.
David Fravor (2:16:29.720)
My theory, so it's funny because I know one of the guys that was, he was one of the original
David Fravor (2:16:35.520)
employees at SpaceX.
Lex Fridman (2:16:37.160)
He's a friend of mine, and I won't say his name.
Lex Fridman (2:16:39.920)
But he knows Elon.
Lex Fridman (2:16:40.920)
And he actually worked on the entire Falcon 1 project.
David Fravor (2:16:45.280)
He's one of the lead guys on that.
Lex Fridman (2:16:46.360)
So he's got some great, as a matter of fact, there's a movie, there's a book coming out
David Fravor (2:16:49.760)
that comes out in about a year on this.
Lex Fridman (2:16:51.440)
The original, the first years of space, first six years of SpaceX.
Lex Fridman (2:16:55.080)
And he's named in the book.
Lex Fridman (2:16:56.080)
And they're supposed to make a movie on it.
Lex Fridman (2:16:57.600)
So I'm like, hey, who's going to play it?
Lex Fridman (2:17:00.120)
But what he's done, to me, it changed the game, and here's why.
David Fravor (2:17:04.920)
Because I said, I think it was 62 when Eisenhower warned of the industrial defense complex.
David Fravor (2:17:10.480)
Which it has become, everything he warned us of, it has become, and it's really driven
David Fravor (2:17:17.000)
by, there's the big three in defense, which is really Northrop, Lockheed, and Boeing.
David Fravor (2:17:23.840)
Those are the big, those are your biggest, and Raytheon's kind of right, like a subset
David Fravor (2:17:28.040)
of that.
Lex Fridman (2:17:29.040)
But Raytheon's pretty big too.
Lex Fridman (2:17:30.040)
But in US defense, those are the big guys, right?
David Fravor (2:17:32.400)
That's actually where a lot of military guys go when they retire, they go do stuff like
David Fravor (2:17:37.440)
that.
Lex Fridman (2:17:38.440)
And you look at that, and you go, and the way government contracting is working, and
Lex Fridman (2:17:41.760)
how we charge, and why things cost so much.
Lex Fridman (2:17:44.240)
And then you go, you got Elon, who's got an ego, and he doesn't like to do things a certain
David Fravor (2:17:50.840)
way.
Lex Fridman (2:17:51.840)
And I've talked to the guy that worked there on, because the government likes to have oversight
David Fravor (2:17:54.680)
of contracts, where he was like, no, just tell me what you want, I'll build it, and
Lex Fridman (2:17:58.040)
I'll give you a bill when it's done.
Lex Fridman (2:17:59.560)
And then if I do it for half the price, I make a ton of money, because he's a money
Lex Fridman (2:18:03.280)
driven guy, which I like, capitalism at its best.
Lex Fridman (2:18:07.520)
So now you look at the two things.
Lex Fridman (2:18:08.880)
So you got the SpaceX, which is the Dragon capsule, right?
Lex Fridman (2:18:13.280)
And then you've got Boeing.
Lex Fridman (2:18:15.560)
So Elon did what Boeing is contracted to do in less time for half the money.
Lex Fridman (2:18:21.440)
And oh, by the way, because he can reuse the boosters, because they come back and land,
Lex Fridman (2:18:26.000)
and you don't have to, like Morton Thicol, we've reused them on the space shuttle.
Lex Fridman (2:18:29.320)
But they had to take them all apart and do a bunch of stuff, because they landed in Saltwater,
Lex Fridman (2:18:31.960)
and then he had to put them all back together.
Lex Fridman (2:18:34.000)
Where Elon gets them down, because I was joking with this guy, go, what do they do?
David Fravor (2:18:36.840)
Do they like rehaul, overhaul, because no, actually they clean them up, and they can
David Fravor (2:18:40.440)
use them again.
Lex Fridman (2:18:41.440)
They're reusable systems.
David Fravor (2:18:43.660)
Incredible leap in technology that no one thought of, but here's a private company.
Lex Fridman (2:18:47.040)
So being able to put people in the capsule and the spacesuits, I mean, it's literally
David Fravor (2:18:50.680)
like sci fi when you watch when they went up.
Lex Fridman (2:18:52.840)
So I'm a huge fan of what he and his company have been able to do, because the fact that
David Fravor (2:18:59.520)
we were paying huge amounts of money to the Russian government, and oh, by the way, if
David Fravor (2:19:03.560)
you didn't know, because I have some friends that are astronauts, they all have to learn
David Fravor (2:19:07.880)
Russian.
Lex Fridman (2:19:08.880)
Right?
Lex Fridman (2:19:09.880)
And they have to do, it's what, level five, where the test is a phone call, where they
David Fravor (2:19:14.040)
call you up and they, because they would go, so I went to the pinning, two friends of mine.
David Fravor (2:19:19.720)
The one actually had a mission date, the one got one later.
Lex Fridman (2:19:21.800)
So it's cool when you're watching your friends doing a spacewalk, because I would pull up,
David Fravor (2:19:26.080)
because if I knew what was going on, I'd pull up the NASA thing.
David Fravor (2:19:27.960)
I was in a meeting one day, and I've got NASA on and makers out there floating around doing
David Fravor (2:19:32.960)
his stuff.
Lex Fridman (2:19:33.960)
And I saw one, he's in the space station while they're doing a spacewalk, so it's kind of
David Fravor (2:19:36.280)
cool when you go, oh yeah, I know that dude, he's up there in space, floating around.
Lex Fridman (2:19:40.780)
So when you look at what those, they're capable of doing, and then you go, what Elon is bringing
David Fravor (2:19:47.940)
to the fact that now it's back in America, it's actually, to me, it's cost effective
Lex Fridman (2:19:56.300)
for us to be able to do more stuff.
Lex Fridman (2:19:58.400)
I think it opens the door to, do we go back to the moon?
Lex Fridman (2:20:01.960)
Is there a reason to go back to the moon?
David Fravor (2:20:03.360)
Personally, I think if they're really going to go, in years from now, go to Mars, I think
David Fravor (2:20:07.160)
that the moon is the stepping stone to go back, to start proving some of the technology,
David Fravor (2:20:11.760)
to go, hey, we can build this, we can get on the moon, and now we can get back off the
Lex Fridman (2:20:15.600)
moon.
David Fravor (2:20:17.480)
Because we did this on less than a compact computer in the 60s, which is the whole reason
Lex Fridman (2:20:22.680)
that I flew, because I'm obsessed.
David Fravor (2:20:24.000)
Matter of fact, I have the giant Lego Apollo at home, and the Lander, and I have one that
David Fravor (2:20:29.720)
my dad built me in 1969, right after that, and Neil Armstrong's an Ohio boy, and so
David Fravor (2:20:35.400)
am I.
David Fravor (2:20:36.400)
Matter of fact, I have a picture of him in a car in Wapakonet, Ohio, at the parade after
David Fravor (2:20:39.680)
he walked on the moon, because his parents didn't live far from my aunt and uncle in
Lex Fridman (2:20:42.680)
Wapakoneta, and they were out at the parade.
Lex Fridman (2:20:45.140)
So I've been obsessed with this since I was a child.
Lex Fridman (2:20:48.440)
Do you hope to, do you think, do you hope that you'll go out to space one day?
Lex Fridman (2:20:55.440)
Me?
Lex Fridman (2:20:56.440)
If I had the opportunity, I'd go in a second.
David Fravor (2:20:58.880)
I am not.
David Fravor (2:20:59.880)
Because, I mean, that's one of the hopes of the commercial space flight, is that, you
David Fravor (2:21:03.960)
know, like people like, I mean, it would be tourism, but you certainly wouldn't want to,
David Fravor (2:21:09.880)
in terms of, you're not kind of a civilian, right, I mean, in a sense that you're just
David Fravor (2:21:14.320)
a normal person, you're not a 5G pilot currently, but it seems like if we send a civilian up,
Lex Fridman (2:21:20.360)
there would be somebody like you in the next, like, 20 years.
David Fravor (2:21:24.280)
I'd be, you know, if Elon wants to throw me on one of those things, I'd be all over
Lex Fridman (2:21:27.080)
it.
David Fravor (2:21:28.080)
I'd be like, okay, but, you know, sometimes you gotta get your kicks while you're alive.
Lex Fridman (2:21:31.200)
I'd love to hear that discussion with your wife.
David Fravor (2:21:33.000)
Listen, there's the pros and cons.
David Fravor (2:21:34.880)
She's, I mean, I've known her since high school, so she, yeah, she knows how I am, you know.
David Fravor (2:21:40.800)
Most people that know me are like, yeah, you're pretty much the same person you were in high
Lex Fridman (2:21:43.280)
school.
David Fravor (2:21:44.280)
You know, I was a class clown and I still am that way.
Lex Fridman (2:21:47.600)
So let me ask you this question.
Lex Fridman (2:21:49.560)
So I'm talking to Elon again soon, I'm curious to get your perspective on it.
David Fravor (2:21:57.240)
If I wanted to talk to him about TICTAC, about these weird out there propulsion ideas, which
David Fravor (2:22:05.240)
are obviously, just like you said, if there's something to it, if it can be investigated
David Fravor (2:22:10.160)
somehow, it would be extremely useful for us to understand in the effort of developing
David Fravor (2:22:16.120)
propulsion systems that can get us cheaply out to space.
Lex Fridman (2:22:21.520)
What should Elon think about this stuff?
Lex Fridman (2:22:23.460)
What should he do?
Lex Fridman (2:22:24.520)
What should people like him do?
David Fravor (2:22:25.960)
I think people need to open their aperture up and stay off of, take the next step and
David Fravor (2:22:31.560)
go, you know, we are tied to fuels and either solid rocket or liquid or whatever we do,
Lex Fridman (2:22:38.360)
but it's a thrust generated where we rapidly expand gas to create thrust, which is really
Lex Fridman (2:22:43.760)
in layman's terms, you know, we can get into what, but that's what it does.
David Fravor (2:22:48.780)
If you have something that you can contain that is a fuel source that would last a significant
David Fravor (2:22:56.500)
amount of time, you know, those rocket boosters go and when they're done, they're done.
David Fravor (2:23:00.460)
There's enough to get them back down and that's it.
David Fravor (2:23:02.200)
There's not a huge, you know, they're not coming back and go, oh, I still got three
David Fravor (2:23:05.020)
quarters of a tank.
Lex Fridman (2:23:06.020)
Let's bolt them on and do it again.
David Fravor (2:23:07.560)
His system's not doing that.
Lex Fridman (2:23:10.720)
But you know, the way contracting, especially in the government, the government has tons
David Fravor (2:23:15.200)
of money, but you got to remember the government has to justify how they spend our tax dollars
Lex Fridman (2:23:19.200)
for the most part.
David Fravor (2:23:20.200)
There are times where they can hide money in the budget to get stuff done.
Lex Fridman (2:23:24.040)
But then when you look at, and I'm just going to throw a few out there, but if you look
David Fravor (2:23:26.600)
at what Amazon, you know, does with Bezos and you've got Elon, there's some big money
Lex Fridman (2:23:36.120)
out there.
David Fravor (2:23:37.120)
I mean, you're talking, you know, Bezos alone could buy companies like big companies.
Lex Fridman (2:23:43.280)
Apple's another one.
David Fravor (2:23:44.280)
These companies had huge, huge amounts of money.
Lex Fridman (2:23:47.800)
And then just go over to the Gates Foundation and they've got gazillions and gazillions
David Fravor (2:23:52.120)
of dollars.
Lex Fridman (2:23:53.120)
We've got universities.
David Fravor (2:23:54.120)
There's so much money out there.
David Fravor (2:23:55.160)
If we really wanted to do it, aside from what the government wants to do, because we do
Lex Fridman (2:23:59.880)
live in a free society, I think there's enough to go, how do we do this?
Lex Fridman (2:24:05.720)
And because when you work outside of what the government would want to do, let's, we're
David Fravor (2:24:11.400)
not working on this necessarily for the United States, although I am a huge giant.
Lex Fridman (2:24:16.160)
I will be.
David Fravor (2:24:17.160)
American.
Lex Fridman (2:24:18.160)
I would never.
David Fravor (2:24:19.160)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:24:20.160)
I am an American.
David Fravor (2:24:21.160)
You're talking to somebody born in the Soviet.
Lex Fridman (2:24:22.160)
I can't believe you agreed to this.
David Fravor (2:24:23.160)
But, but when I haven't killed me yet, you're here and you've been here for a while.
Lex Fridman (2:24:32.040)
No, no, no.
David Fravor (2:24:33.040)
I'm joking.
Lex Fridman (2:24:34.040)
I'm an American citizen.
David Fravor (2:24:35.040)
I'm actually pretty much American.
Lex Fridman (2:24:36.040)
But see, when you do that, so you look at, let's just look at American universities.
David Fravor (2:24:39.680)
Yes.
David Fravor (2:24:40.680)
There are some brilliant minds and we'll just use MIT because you worked down there.
David Fravor (2:24:43.840)
There's some brilliant minds, but there's a huge chunk of those brilliant minds that
Lex Fridman (2:24:46.880)
are not American citizens.
Lex Fridman (2:24:48.160)
So if you want to get into government stuff and you are not an American citizen, it gets
Lex Fridman (2:24:51.760)
really, really, really hard.
Lex Fridman (2:24:53.960)
But if I take money like Bezos money, Elon money, and they, let's just say they want
Lex Fridman (2:24:59.140)
to work together.
David Fravor (2:25:00.500)
They can split it up 50, 50, the two of them when the technology gets developed.
Lex Fridman (2:25:04.580)
But now I'm not constrained by who has to do the work.
David Fravor (2:25:07.120)
I just want to make sure that I try and keep it in the United States because technology
Lex Fridman (2:25:11.400)
is technology.
Lex Fridman (2:25:12.400)
And if it gets developed and gets over to where a country gets a hold of it and then
David Fravor (2:25:17.380)
just basically uses it for their own, because you save them all the research time, you don't
David Fravor (2:25:21.640)
want to do that.
Lex Fridman (2:25:22.720)
But if we can get to the point where we can, we do it on the International Space Station.
David Fravor (2:25:25.660)
We realize that space was too expensive for one country to do alone.
Lex Fridman (2:25:29.900)
So we made the International Space Station and we have a conglomerate.
David Fravor (2:25:34.640)
That's the one thing that the Russians and the U.S. actually work together on.
Lex Fridman (2:25:38.200)
Think about it.
David Fravor (2:25:39.200)
That's it.
David Fravor (2:25:40.200)
We work together on space because we realize it's way too expensive for us to do alone
Lex Fridman (2:25:43.760)
and effective.
Lex Fridman (2:25:45.120)
So we've got this thing that's been out there floating around for God, now what is it, like
Lex Fridman (2:25:47.960)
20 years that thing's been up there floating around?
Lex Fridman (2:25:50.080)
So it's getting old.
David Fravor (2:25:51.080)
We're going to have to replace parts and do stuff.
Lex Fridman (2:25:52.760)
But if we can pool the money together and come up with something that would literally
David Fravor (2:25:56.720)
change mankind and change travel and allow us to actually do a more effective thing of
David Fravor (2:26:01.240)
engineering, because if you develop that technology, you don't even have to send a man person.
David Fravor (2:26:06.200)
If you can develop a technology that's so, and with our automation and where we're progressing
Lex Fridman (2:26:10.120)
and our competing power to send something out that's not just floating around when,
David Fravor (2:26:15.800)
you know, that can react a lot quicker, something that could actually go down to the surface
Lex Fridman (2:26:20.160)
and come back up.
Lex Fridman (2:26:21.160)
So right now, everything we get out of Mars, it goes down there and then it just sends
Lex Fridman (2:26:23.680)
data back.
David Fravor (2:26:24.680)
Get an analyzer.
Lex Fridman (2:26:25.680)
But if I've got a technology that can go up there really quick, I'm not worried about
David Fravor (2:26:28.600)
man.
Lex Fridman (2:26:29.600)
I don't have life support systems and all that.
Lex Fridman (2:26:30.600)
But if it can go down, it can go, it can cruise around, it can hover above, it can take samples
Lex Fridman (2:26:34.640)
and it can actually take Martian soil and then bring it back.
Lex Fridman (2:26:38.600)
So we can analyze it here.
Lex Fridman (2:26:39.600)
That's a game changer.
David Fravor (2:26:40.600)
It's a complete game changer because it opens up all the planets.
Lex Fridman (2:26:44.520)
Exactly.
Lex Fridman (2:26:45.520)
So in a sense, the Tic Tac is a symbol.
Lex Fridman (2:26:50.360)
So whatever you think, even from a debunking perspective, there's a nonzero probability
David Fravor (2:26:56.020)
that it's alien technology.
David Fravor (2:26:58.520)
In that sense, it serves as a beacon of hope and a reason to, like you said, widen the
David Fravor (2:27:06.920)
aperture and to invest big amounts of money into thinking outside the box.
Lex Fridman (2:27:13.880)
It's almost a hope to say we can do better propulsion.
David Fravor (2:27:21.240)
We can overcome physics in an order of magnitude better way and it's worthwhile to try.
David Fravor (2:27:27.200)
I think, and I don't think the money, if you look at a big picture with the amount of money,
David Fravor (2:27:30.400)
some that's out there floating around these private companies, I think if you said, hey,
David Fravor (2:27:34.320)
I've got, let's just say a hundred million dollars, which really a hundred million dollars
David Fravor (2:27:37.720)
relative to Bezos has got, what, a hundred and some billion dollars in that work.
Lex Fridman (2:27:41.560)
So if he said, hey, a hundred million dollars, you drop a hundred million dollars and I go
Lex Fridman (2:27:45.520)
and I'm going to put a, like the government will send a broad area announcement out that
Lex Fridman (2:27:50.440)
says, hey, we're looking for this technology or a DARPA program.
Lex Fridman (2:27:53.520)
But what if I just said, hey, who's to stop Bezos and Elon from doing that on their own
David Fravor (2:27:57.920)
to say, hey, I want to go pool universities because they have fewer restrictions because
David Fravor (2:28:01.720)
it's not tax dollars.
Lex Fridman (2:28:02.720)
They don't have the checks inbound.
David Fravor (2:28:03.720)
They can do whatever they want.
Lex Fridman (2:28:04.720)
So their money, sorry about that, to go, hey, I'm going to put this out and I'm going
David Fravor (2:28:09.160)
to get the best physicists that are working at CERN, that are at MIT, that are at Caltech,
Lex Fridman (2:28:14.720)
at the schools I mentioned.
David Fravor (2:28:15.720)
And, oh, by the way, a few of these guys are propulsion experts and I'm going to basically,
Lex Fridman (2:28:20.080)
I'm going to fund you guys for 10 years.
Lex Fridman (2:28:23.440)
So you get $10 million a year and I'm going to give you your salaries and we're going
Lex Fridman (2:28:26.840)
to do that or whatever the amount works.
Lex Fridman (2:28:28.160)
So let's cut it down to five so we can pay you well, right?
Lex Fridman (2:28:30.960)
To do the research.
David Fravor (2:28:31.960)
But, oh, by the way, the research is, it's not classified, but it's controlled.
Lex Fridman (2:28:36.640)
So we're not going to publicly just put this out in journals, but if we make a leap that
David Fravor (2:28:40.760)
we think would advance because although those, let's say there's 10 of them, those 10 scientists
David Fravor (2:28:45.060)
come up with something and they put out a paper, there might be a number 11 at another
David Fravor (2:28:49.560)
university that reads that paper and says, hey, I kind of had this idea and now you can
Lex Fridman (2:28:54.240)
get a thought pool that pushes us in and gets us out of the mindset.
David Fravor (2:28:59.280)
Because we have a tendency to, we evolve the stuff that we create, but it's like I was
Lex Fridman (2:29:04.560)
joking because I know a ton of guys with PhDs and girls.
Lex Fridman (2:29:09.320)
And I said, but how much, when a person gets a PhD in engineering, how much new math is
Lex Fridman (2:29:13.360)
really being done?
David Fravor (2:29:14.360)
I said, there's a handful of people in the world that are really doing, I'm talking Stephen
David Fravor (2:29:18.720)
Hawkins type brilliance that is going, I'm really doing something that's totally different.
David Fravor (2:29:26.000)
That's a big dramatic thing now going on in physics that everybody's converged towards
Lex Fridman (2:29:30.800)
this local minima or local maxima, whatever you think about it.
Lex Fridman (2:29:34.320)
And it's again, same as with the TICTAC, thinking outside the box is not accepted and it probably
Lex Fridman (2:29:44.200)
should be.
Lex Fridman (2:29:45.200)
But it's hard because if you go back, go back to Einstein, back to the original, he was
Lex Fridman (2:29:51.720)
out of the box.
David Fravor (2:29:53.080)
He did not think the norm.
Lex Fridman (2:29:54.080)
That's true genius.
David Fravor (2:29:55.080)
Had he not thought out of the box and came up with some of his theories, where would
Lex Fridman (2:29:59.140)
we be?
David Fravor (2:30:00.140)
Okay, we're jumping around a little bit.
Lex Fridman (2:30:03.080)
So we've talked a little bit about Elon and Mars and space, but let me jump back to a
David Fravor (2:30:09.720)
few questions that folks had.
David Fravor (2:30:11.840)
I have to kind of bring up some debunking stuff because I think not the actual facts
David Fravor (2:30:17.800)
of the debunking, but the nature of the true believers versus the debunkers hurts my heart
David Fravor (2:30:25.040)
a little bit because people are just talking past each other, but let me kind of bring
David Fravor (2:30:29.120)
it up.
David Fravor (2:30:30.120)
Mick West, I've just recently started to pay attention just in preparing to talk to you
David Fravor (2:30:36.560)
about this world.
Lex Fridman (2:30:37.560)
And Mick West is one of the better known people who kind of makes a career out of trying to
David Fravor (2:30:44.120)
debunk.
Lex Fridman (2:30:45.120)
Sort of his natural approach to all situations is that of a skeptic.
David Fravor (2:30:50.360)
I think it's very useful and powerful, especially for me coming from a scientific perspective
Lex Fridman (2:30:55.120)
to take the approach he does.
David Fravor (2:30:57.200)
It's valuable.
Lex Fridman (2:30:58.200)
And I think no matter what, I think there's, I hope that people, quote unquote, true believers
David Fravor (2:31:04.760)
are a little bit more open minded to the work of Mick West.
Lex Fridman (2:31:07.960)
I think it's quite useful and brilliant work.
Lex Fridman (2:31:11.120)
So let me ask, he has a bunch of videos, a bunch of ideas where he kind of suggests possible
Lex Fridman (2:31:17.320)
other explanations of the things that were out there.
David Fravor (2:31:21.020)
He has some explanations of the things that you've seen in with the Tic Tac, like with
Lex Fridman (2:31:27.880)
your own eyes.
David Fravor (2:31:28.880)
He says that it's possible that you miscalculated the size and the distance of the thing and
Lex Fridman (2:31:36.200)
so on when you were flying around.
David Fravor (2:31:37.720)
I don't find that as, I mean, maybe you can comment on that.
Lex Fridman (2:31:41.520)
Let me do it right now.
David Fravor (2:31:42.520)
Sure.
Lex Fridman (2:31:43.520)
So, cause that comes up.
Lex Fridman (2:31:44.520)
Like how, how did you know it was about 40 feet long?
David Fravor (2:31:45.840)
I go, okay, so 16 years flying against other airplanes, know what stuff looks like.
David Fravor (2:31:53.120)
You know, I've looked down on things.
Lex Fridman (2:31:54.860)
So if I know, I know, here's the known things.
David Fravor (2:31:56.560)
I know when we saw the Tic Tac, I was at 20,000 feet ish, right around there.
Lex Fridman (2:32:02.120)
So when I look down, I know what a Hornet looks like looking down on them cause I've
David Fravor (2:32:05.260)
done it for all those years.
Lex Fridman (2:32:07.200)
I mean, I got a good idea.
Lex Fridman (2:32:08.440)
So that's, that's why I said 40 feet cause it's about Hornet size.
Lex Fridman (2:32:11.880)
So and as I go around, you know, you get to the point where you have to be able to judge
David Fravor (2:32:15.760)
distance when we fly out of experience and you can tell if something small or big, you
Lex Fridman (2:32:21.720)
know.
Lex Fridman (2:32:23.600)
So I would argue the fact of, you know, peer experiences, you know, professional observers,
Lex Fridman (2:32:30.120)
which is what we're actually trained to do.
Lex Fridman (2:32:33.800)
And having done it for so long, no, it was, and everyone came back with the same thing.
Lex Fridman (2:32:38.160)
They're like, yeah, it's about size of Hornet.
David Fravor (2:32:40.320)
From a human factors perspective, how often in your experience of those 16 years do you
Lex Fridman (2:32:46.720)
find that eyes, what you see is the incorrect state of things.
Lex Fridman (2:32:53.000)
So like how often do you make mistakes with vision?
David Fravor (2:32:57.840)
You actually, you make vision issues a lot because you're, and the sad part is, is your
David Fravor (2:33:02.240)
brain believes what your eyes see.
David Fravor (2:33:04.820)
We are actually trained to do the opposite of that, especially when you instrument fly
David Fravor (2:33:08.760)
because your brain and eyes can tell you one thing, but you got to trust your instruments.
Lex Fridman (2:33:14.880)
Let's go back to landing at night.
Lex Fridman (2:33:16.260)
So your eyes assume that the runway and your brain assumes that
Lex Fridman (2:33:22.980)
the runway is fixed, but you know that the runway is moving.
Lex Fridman (2:33:26.800)
So if I try and do stuff visually, I would, you die every time, not every time, but you
Lex Fridman (2:33:31.960)
die close to every time trying to land on a boat.
Lex Fridman (2:33:34.600)
So we actually use instruments, which are counter to your brain.
Lex Fridman (2:33:37.800)
So, and there's actually all kinds of things that we go through in training.
David Fravor (2:33:41.160)
They have this thing, I think they still use it.
Lex Fridman (2:33:43.780)
It's called the MSDD multi spatial disorientation device or the spin and puke.
David Fravor (2:33:51.000)
It looks like a giant carousel and you're in these little modules.
Lex Fridman (2:33:53.720)
And when you get out, you think the thing goes really fast and they can, you can make
David Fravor (2:33:57.360)
yourself think that I'm descending or climbing, but we were actually only going around in
Lex Fridman (2:34:01.360)
circles at a very slow rate, as fast as a human can talk.
Lex Fridman (2:34:04.160)
But as they spin you around in a little sub thing and slow it down and speed it up, your
David Fravor (2:34:08.360)
body does this and you, you know, and then by visuals of showing you like they can spin
David Fravor (2:34:12.520)
it sideways to the outside wall, but they can show like lines that are, they can make
Lex Fridman (2:34:16.640)
the line stand still because they're moving the same velocity.
David Fravor (2:34:18.440)
They can move the other way and you'll think you're screaming.
Lex Fridman (2:34:20.680)
You see it in amusement parks all the time.
David Fravor (2:34:23.960)
You do all that because it gives you a sense of the A, but you're really not doing, you're
Lex Fridman (2:34:28.440)
sitting there.
Lex Fridman (2:34:29.440)
So we get trained on all that stuff.
Lex Fridman (2:34:30.440)
So if you, if you want to look at it and go, well, you're, you're disoriented or this,
David Fravor (2:34:33.480)
I'd be like, I'd argue going, no, I'm not.
David Fravor (2:34:35.440)
Because you know, when I'm flying the airplane, even as I'm looking at the Tic Tac, I've got
David Fravor (2:34:39.000)
a heads up display that tells me what my airplane's doing.
Lex Fridman (2:34:42.420)
So I've got, I know what I'm doing.
David Fravor (2:34:44.680)
I can look outside.
David Fravor (2:34:45.680)
I've got a sense of what I'm doing, but I'm also looking inside to cross check of what
David Fravor (2:34:49.040)
I'm seeing is in reality, what I'm doing.
David Fravor (2:34:51.240)
You actually, your brain gotten good at combining almost adding extra sensory information.
David Fravor (2:34:56.460)
You have to, you have like supervision, so you're combining what you're seeing and adjusting
Lex Fridman (2:35:01.000)
what the sensors, what you call an instruments are giving you.
Lex Fridman (2:35:04.480)
And that, that in turn is a loop that adjusts the perception system that like, that, that
Lex Fridman (2:35:10.600)
adjusts your brain's interpretation of what you're saying.
David Fravor (2:35:13.400)
You'd be amazed at how good, so here's a, here's another example.
Lex Fridman (2:35:15.860)
So if we go out over the water, so there's no land in sight and we're going to fight.
Lex Fridman (2:35:20.960)
So when we fight, you know, two airplanes, we're going to dog fight.
David Fravor (2:35:25.340)
As an instructor and I was for all, most of my time, you have to come back and you have
David Fravor (2:35:30.440)
to recreate it.
Lex Fridman (2:35:31.520)
So we call it drawing arrows.
Lex Fridman (2:35:33.720)
So you have to recreate that stuff.
Lex Fridman (2:35:37.360)
So you get pretty good at going, you know, like I would take off and say, all right,
David Fravor (2:35:41.040)
we're starting heading due east and I know where the sun is at because in the short couple
Lex Fridman (2:35:47.020)
minutes that we're going to fight, the sun's really not going to move much.
David Fravor (2:35:49.160)
It's going to be in a relative zone.
Lex Fridman (2:35:50.160)
I know that the sun is at, you know, let's just say 195 degrees, right?
Lex Fridman (2:35:56.740)
So I'm starting going east and it's actually be down off my right hand side.
Lex Fridman (2:36:00.800)
So now I know as I'm fighting, cause in the water you don't have any reference.
David Fravor (2:36:03.280)
Like I pass land.
Lex Fridman (2:36:04.280)
I pass land.
David Fravor (2:36:05.280)
No, you don't.
Lex Fridman (2:36:06.280)
And you can't use clouds cause clouds do move.
Lex Fridman (2:36:07.280)
But you got to come back cause you go, here's where I started.
Lex Fridman (2:36:09.560)
And then you, when, as soon as you end, you go, all right, I ended heading 355.
Lex Fridman (2:36:14.280)
And then you recreate the turns and the amount of turns and use the sun relative.
Lex Fridman (2:36:18.280)
So you can create this entire battle that went on with arrows so that you can come back
Lex Fridman (2:36:22.440)
and debrief the guy that you were teaching on exactly what happened.
Lex Fridman (2:36:27.000)
And you get really, really good at that.
Lex Fridman (2:36:28.840)
So when you come up and go, well, Dave, how do you know you were at six oclock?
Lex Fridman (2:36:31.240)
And he went around and he came up here.
David Fravor (2:36:32.800)
I go, because I'm trained to do all that.
Lex Fridman (2:36:36.200)
And I take all the notes, why I'm flying, you can do it.
Lex Fridman (2:36:39.000)
But usually it's, you memorize it all and you get done and then you, as soon as you're
David Fravor (2:36:42.960)
done, you knock it off, you look at the other airplane, you get set and you start writing
David Fravor (2:36:45.480)
all your notes down.
Lex Fridman (2:36:46.480)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:36:47.480)
And you're writing it really fast on your card and you go out with a stack of cards
Lex Fridman (2:36:50.040)
and you stick the new one on your knee board card so you're ready to go and here's the
David Fravor (2:36:52.360)
next setup.
David Fravor (2:36:53.360)
It's kind of, it's in some way similar to what like at the, at the highest level chess
David Fravor (2:37:00.440)
players do.
Lex Fridman (2:37:01.440)
I mean, you're, I mean, they, they, they recap the games.
Lex Fridman (2:37:07.960)
But the, the richness of the representation that they use in remembering like how the
Lex Fridman (2:37:13.720)
games evolved.
David Fravor (2:37:15.240)
It's not like it's much richer than the actual moves.
David Fravor (2:37:19.640)
It's like these, a bunch of patterns that are hard to put into words, like, like all
David Fravor (2:37:24.680)
the richness of thinking they have about the way the game evolved.
Lex Fridman (2:37:30.200)
It's more like instinctual from years and years of experience.
Lex Fridman (2:37:34.220)
So they try to put it into words, but they really can't.
Lex Fridman (2:37:37.240)
It's just.
David Fravor (2:37:38.240)
I understand that.
David Fravor (2:37:39.240)
It's because for us, if we don't come back with anything, then there's no learning to
David Fravor (2:37:42.560)
be had.
Lex Fridman (2:37:43.560)
Right.
David Fravor (2:37:44.560)
Because the whole thing is the debrief when we get back and we talk about, that's really
Lex Fridman (2:37:47.100)
where the learning is.
Lex Fridman (2:37:49.100)
And it's the same thing if you want to go back to chess, you know, when you start off,
Lex Fridman (2:37:52.600)
you try and learn because you're remembering what you're doing.
David Fravor (2:37:55.100)
If you play against someone, I'm always a big place, play with someone better than you.
Lex Fridman (2:37:59.100)
That's how you learn.
David Fravor (2:38:00.100)
If you're constantly beating people, you're not learning anything.
Lex Fridman (2:38:01.600)
You're just learning that they're not good and you're better.
David Fravor (2:38:04.120)
When you challenge yourself against someone that is better than you, you learn.
Lex Fridman (2:38:10.080)
So I learned how to fight an airplane with, he's actually one of my best friends, we'll
David Fravor (2:38:15.760)
call him Tom.
Lex Fridman (2:38:16.760)
I won't give his call sign because I don't know what his name is.
Lex Fridman (2:38:19.280)
So Tom took me out and taught me how to fight because Tom had just left Top Gun.
David Fravor (2:38:23.960)
He was the training officer at Top Gun, which so that's the guy, the training officer is
David Fravor (2:38:28.720)
the main guy at Top Gun.
Lex Fridman (2:38:30.960)
So Tom was the training officer at Top Gun.
Lex Fridman (2:38:32.440)
So Tom, when I learned, because I had come out of A6 and we really don't fight because
Lex Fridman (2:38:36.480)
it was a bomber.
Lex Fridman (2:38:37.960)
So I get in F18s and I want to learn how to fight because it's a whole other side of the
Lex Fridman (2:38:40.800)
mission.
David Fravor (2:38:41.800)
It's the F and F fighter attack.
Lex Fridman (2:38:42.800)
The F18 is fighter attack.
Lex Fridman (2:38:44.500)
So I had to learn how to fight.
Lex Fridman (2:38:46.400)
So now I got one of the best fighter pilots in the world who's going to teach me how to
David Fravor (2:38:49.760)
do it.
Lex Fridman (2:38:51.520)
And he did.
Lex Fridman (2:38:52.520)
And I would do something and then he would go, I'd get to a situation where I had never
Lex Fridman (2:38:56.080)
been.
Lex Fridman (2:38:57.080)
And then I would go, well, I'm going to do this.
Lex Fridman (2:38:58.080)
And then he would destroy me and he would come back and go, here's why you don't do
David Fravor (2:39:02.400)
that.
Lex Fridman (2:39:03.400)
And then I would take that knowledge and I would put it in my little basket of tricks.
Lex Fridman (2:39:06.960)
And over time, because you don't, no one walks out into that world.
Lex Fridman (2:39:09.880)
I don't care how gifted of an aviator and go, I am the man or the woman.
David Fravor (2:39:13.960)
I am it.
Lex Fridman (2:39:14.960)
No, it's a learning process.
Lex Fridman (2:39:17.560)
And so over all those years, you've gotten good.
Lex Fridman (2:39:22.560)
So what are the chances that your eyes betrays you when you saw the Tic Tac?
David Fravor (2:39:29.560)
Low.
Lex Fridman (2:39:30.560)
Zero.
David Fravor (2:39:31.560)
Well, I mean, I'm not zero.
Lex Fridman (2:39:34.280)
So maybe 90.
David Fravor (2:39:35.280)
Yeah, I am ninety nine point nine percent.
Lex Fridman (2:39:37.920)
So point one percent.
David Fravor (2:39:39.200)
My eyes deceive me.
Lex Fridman (2:39:40.320)
But remember, if it deceived me, it had to deceive the other four people.
Lex Fridman (2:39:43.720)
So the percentage is even lower.
Lex Fridman (2:39:45.480)
Yeah.
David Fravor (2:39:46.480)
Look up.
David Fravor (2:39:47.480)
Well, I don't find that particular debunking case that you said, but I'm glad you put it.
David Fravor (2:39:51.200)
You you said those words out loud.
Lex Fridman (2:39:55.000)
So for me, from my perspective, coming into this world and looking at it, I'm a little
David Fravor (2:40:00.320)
bit more skeptical.
Lex Fridman (2:40:03.040)
So your eye account, I think, is the most fascinating story.
Lex Fridman (2:40:06.120)
And that I think that's inspiring to me and should be inspiring to a lot of scientists
David Fravor (2:40:12.920)
out there on so many levels, just like we said, an engineering level that maybe there's
David Fravor (2:40:19.020)
propulsion systems we can actually build that can do some crazy, amazing stuff.
Lex Fridman (2:40:24.860)
So it's at the very least intriguing and at the best inspiring.
David Fravor (2:40:30.000)
I just want to say that.
Lex Fridman (2:40:31.000)
But on the video side, it's like it's the videos for the Flir video, the go fast and
David Fravor (2:40:43.800)
the gimbal video.
Lex Fridman (2:40:45.720)
They are only interesting to me to me in the context of your story.
David Fravor (2:40:53.080)
Like without that, they're kind of low resolution.
Lex Fridman (2:40:56.800)
It's like it it's easier to build a debunking story to be skeptical.
Lex Fridman (2:41:02.760)
So this is where I'm coming from.
Lex Fridman (2:41:04.320)
Maybe you can convince me otherwise.
Lex Fridman (2:41:06.040)
But so to bring up Mick West one more time, he looks at the Flir video and he says that
David Fravor (2:41:12.740)
one of the most amazing video parts of the Flir video for people haven't seen it is at
David Fravor (2:41:17.940)
the end of it, the Tic Tac flies or appears to fly very quickly to the left off the screen.
Lex Fridman (2:41:31.360)
And what Mick West says is that, you know, Mick West, probably others, that the way to
David Fravor (2:41:39.280)
explain that is the tracking system.
Lex Fridman (2:41:42.880)
Like we said, this vision based tracking simply loses the like the object.
David Fravor (2:41:48.680)
The tracking loses it.
Lex Fridman (2:41:50.760)
And so it simply allows the object to float off screen because it's no longer tracking
David Fravor (2:41:57.160)
it.
Lex Fridman (2:41:58.160)
So I find that at least a plausible explanation of that video.
David Fravor (2:42:04.640)
Looking at your face, you do not.
Lex Fridman (2:42:07.440)
So can you maybe comment to that to that debunking aspect?
Lex Fridman (2:42:12.500)
So it's funny how people can extrapolate stuff who've never operated the system.
Lex Fridman (2:42:18.240)
No, for sure.
Lex Fridman (2:42:19.240)
And that's like me going because I'm a big Formula One fan.
Lex Fridman (2:42:22.680)
You know, that's like me going, oh, my God, Lewis, what were you doing?
David Fravor (2:42:25.680)
You could have done this with the car and you'd have won the race.
David Fravor (2:42:27.720)
You know, and Lewis Hamilton right now is, you know, defending world champion two time
David Fravor (2:42:30.880)
ways, four time, four or five time world champion.
Lex Fridman (2:42:33.600)
But that would be pretty stupid of me to try and tell Lewis Hamilton how to drive a car.
David Fravor (2:42:39.600)
Or a matter of fact, anyone driving a Formula One car.
Lex Fridman (2:42:43.220)
So I can't tell you how many times I've watched.
David Fravor (2:42:45.080)
You got to remember when we looked at this thing, when when Chad came back with the video,
Lex Fridman (2:42:49.160)
we sat there and watched that.
David Fravor (2:42:50.160)
I mean, I can't tell you how many times I watched it off the original tapes going, all
Lex Fridman (2:42:53.120)
right, right.
David Fravor (2:42:54.120)
All right.
David Fravor (2:42:55.120)
Let's look at this, you know, because you can look and see where the you can see where
David Fravor (2:42:58.360)
the airplane's going.
Lex Fridman (2:42:59.360)
You can see if it's looking left or right.
Lex Fridman (2:43:00.720)
And if you actually watch all that stuff, it doesn't do that.
David Fravor (2:43:02.640)
It actually when the vehicle starts to move, the bars, the tracking gate starts to open
David Fravor (2:43:07.080)
up and the people at Raytheon could probably add to this because they built the pod.
Lex Fridman (2:43:11.000)
The tracking gate will start to open up.
Lex Fridman (2:43:12.920)
And but the thing when it leaves so fast off the screen, the pod can't move fast enough.
David Fravor (2:43:17.460)
It has gimbal rates on how fast that thing can move around because there's another theory
David Fravor (2:43:20.840)
that, oh, the pods looking forward when the pod passes underneath the airplane.
Lex Fridman (2:43:24.880)
So if I'm looking at you and you pass underneath me as it does this, the ball will actually
David Fravor (2:43:28.100)
flip around to kind of finish off and it'll it'll it swaps ends because it has, you know,
Lex Fridman (2:43:33.520)
it's a gimbal.
David Fravor (2:43:34.520)
It can't just it's not free floating.
Lex Fridman (2:43:38.080)
But there's a theory on one of them.
David Fravor (2:43:39.080)
Oh, it's here and it flipped over.
Lex Fridman (2:43:40.080)
It doesn't do that when it's looking out in front.
David Fravor (2:43:41.600)
It stays like this.
Lex Fridman (2:43:43.100)
So yet another another debunker who doesn't know this.
David Fravor (2:43:45.960)
So, you know, and Mick has had several theories on other of some of the other videos like
Lex Fridman (2:43:50.540)
one of them, the go fast as a bird.
Lex Fridman (2:43:53.040)
And Jeremy Corbell actually did a nice job of saying, no, it's not because he's on he's
Lex Fridman (2:43:57.860)
on black hot.
Lex Fridman (2:43:58.860)
So the white object is actually colder than the ocean.
Lex Fridman (2:44:02.560)
That's fine.
David Fravor (2:44:03.560)
If they were colder than the ocean, they'd be dead.
Lex Fridman (2:44:05.800)
So the gimbal video to comment on the amazing aspect of that video is the rotation, the
David Fravor (2:44:13.440)
apparent rotation of the object.
Lex Fridman (2:44:15.160)
That is something that is not possible to do with systems that we know of.
Lex Fridman (2:44:22.880)
And Mick West suggests that a flare like reflections or whatever can explain.
David Fravor (2:44:30.560)
Now, because what Mick West doesn't see is so when they take because I've talked to the
David Fravor (2:44:36.360)
one of them, actually, I work with.
Lex Fridman (2:44:37.760)
So I know him.
David Fravor (2:44:38.760)
I know I talk to him all the time.
Lex Fridman (2:44:40.800)
So and it's his best friend actually shot the video, one of his best friends for the
David Fravor (2:44:46.000)
video, the movie and both of them that go fast in the game were shot by the same person.
Lex Fridman (2:44:50.880)
Yeah.
David Fravor (2:44:51.880)
OK, so and they were in each other's wedding.
Lex Fridman (2:44:54.060)
So that's how well they know each other.
David Fravor (2:44:55.520)
OK, so what you don't see is.
Lex Fridman (2:44:58.640)
So the airplanes, airplanes still super hornets, but they have the APG 79, which is the new
Lex Fridman (2:45:03.840)
phased array radar that's made by Raytheon, things incredible, OK?
Lex Fridman (2:45:08.460)
It doesn't usually if it's if it's out there and it sees it, it's real.
Lex Fridman (2:45:11.480)
So at first they thought they were ghost tracks when they started seeing stuff.
Lex Fridman (2:45:13.960)
And then they actually threw one of the targeting pods out there.
David Fravor (2:45:16.120)
Well, the targeting pod, there's heat signature and you go, hey, dot heat signature, something's
Lex Fridman (2:45:19.520)
there.
David Fravor (2:45:20.520)
It's real.
Lex Fridman (2:45:21.520)
It's not you're not picking up some extraneous thing.
Lex Fridman (2:45:22.760)
So what you see in the gimbal video of the thing and it rotates and you go, holy shit,
Lex Fridman (2:45:27.400)
look at that thing.
Lex Fridman (2:45:28.400)
And it's in the wind and it's going against the wind while it's doing this.
Lex Fridman (2:45:32.200)
You know, someone goes, oh, it's an airplane.
David Fravor (2:45:33.480)
No, if an airplane does this, it's eventually going to start to change aspect because it's
Lex Fridman (2:45:36.520)
in a turn.
David Fravor (2:45:37.520)
This thing doesn't change aspect.
Lex Fridman (2:45:38.520)
It just rotates.
David Fravor (2:45:39.520)
It's just rotating.
Lex Fridman (2:45:40.520)
Right.
David Fravor (2:45:41.520)
The other thing that you see when you talk to them is so they're on their radar.
David Fravor (2:45:44.840)
There's an object that they identify is their number one priority or their launch and steering.
Lex Fridman (2:45:51.800)
So when they designate that, that's where the targeting pod is going to look.
Lex Fridman (2:45:54.560)
That's what you get on the gimbal video.
David Fravor (2:45:56.480)
There's five other I think it's five.
David Fravor (2:45:58.360)
They're kind of in a V, you know, like a geese would fly that are out in front of it and
David Fravor (2:46:02.040)
they're actually coming.
David Fravor (2:46:03.400)
They're out in front of it and they actually turn on the radar and go the other way while
David Fravor (2:46:06.680)
they're filming the gimbal video, which it's I know Ryan has come out and talked about
Lex Fridman (2:46:13.240)
it.
Lex Fridman (2:46:14.680)
But when you see it, you go, you know, if you take it in context because you go, oh,
Lex Fridman (2:46:19.280)
it's just the video.
David Fravor (2:46:20.280)
Well, if you take the video with the radar going, no, there's actually other things out
David Fravor (2:46:23.280)
there because there's at least 60 people that have seen these things on radar off the VACAPES.
David Fravor (2:46:29.440)
It actually became, I called a buddy of mine who was running the wing at the time, the
Lex Fridman (2:46:33.520)
fighter wing.
Lex Fridman (2:46:34.520)
I said, dude, what are you guys doing about this?
David Fravor (2:46:35.920)
He goes, well, we got a NOTAM out, which is a notice to airmen, which means there's these
David Fravor (2:46:38.900)
objects out there in the warning area.
Lex Fridman (2:46:41.800)
So anyone, you can fly a Cessna through the warning area.
David Fravor (2:46:44.160)
All the warning area tells you is that there's high military traffic and training out here.
David Fravor (2:46:47.420)
It's probably best not to be here, but there's nothing that prohibits you from going in there.
Lex Fridman (2:46:52.440)
So these things have the right, wherever they're from or whatever they are, you know, cause
Lex Fridman (2:46:56.560)
people are like, oh, they're balloons.
David Fravor (2:46:57.800)
Well, balloons float.
Lex Fridman (2:46:59.400)
Balloons don't sit in 70 knots of wind and stay in the same location.
David Fravor (2:47:02.960)
They had an airplane because there was two.
Lex Fridman (2:47:05.340)
There's the gimbal thing.
David Fravor (2:47:06.340)
That's a pretty big object.
Lex Fridman (2:47:08.240)
There's also, they talk about, it looks like a cube that's inside of a sphere.
David Fravor (2:47:11.480)
A translucent sphere.
Lex Fridman (2:47:12.480)
What the hell is that?
Lex Fridman (2:47:13.480)
And they almost hit one.
Lex Fridman (2:47:16.120)
It's almost hit them.
Lex Fridman (2:47:17.420)
So that's another, that's one of the biggest, another biggest account.
David Fravor (2:47:21.440)
It's like almost hit a plane, something that appeared to be a cube in a translucent sphere.
Lex Fridman (2:47:27.560)
What do you make of that?
Lex Fridman (2:47:30.560)
Again, you know, what, I mean, that that's, that's the most dangerous thing.
David Fravor (2:47:36.040)
You're right.
David Fravor (2:47:37.040)
The biggest frustration is when you do that and you go, okay, so this thing passed between
David Fravor (2:47:40.120)
two airplanes and it was, I think it was more than like a hundred feet or something like
Lex Fridman (2:47:43.680)
that of the airplane that almost hit it.
Lex Fridman (2:47:45.640)
So what they do is they come back and go, Hey, I had a near midair, what'd you have
Lex Fridman (2:47:48.600)
a near midair with?
David Fravor (2:47:49.600)
It's kind of this floating beach ball with this cube inside of it.
Lex Fridman (2:47:52.120)
And you go, huh?
Lex Fridman (2:47:53.120)
And you know, so they send out a NOTAM again and they, they do a, what's called a hazard
Lex Fridman (2:47:57.200)
report that says, Hey, there's these objects out there.
David Fravor (2:47:59.120)
We almost hit one here and that gets sent off to the Naval safety center.
Lex Fridman (2:48:04.920)
What was done?
Lex Fridman (2:48:05.920)
I mean, what are you going to do?
Lex Fridman (2:48:06.920)
Can you catch one, go out with a giant net and try and bag one?
David Fravor (2:48:10.400)
You don't know because they've seen them.
Lex Fridman (2:48:11.480)
They picked them up like hovering on radar.
Lex Fridman (2:48:13.280)
And then all of a sudden they're traveling at really high rates of speed.
Lex Fridman (2:48:15.680)
So you know, what are you going to do?
David Fravor (2:48:18.600)
Well, and that, let me ask this, cause this is what people kind of think about.
David Fravor (2:48:25.040)
After you witnessed Tic Tac and after this, these incidents, as far as we know, uh, with
David Fravor (2:48:30.880)
the gimbal and the go fast, it seems like people in the military did not, did not react
Lex Fridman (2:48:39.640)
like what, like did not freak out.
David Fravor (2:48:43.220)
It almost like was like a mundane event.
Lex Fridman (2:48:46.620)
How do you explain that?
Lex Fridman (2:48:47.720)
Why didn't the people on the ship, not the higher ups, why wasn't there a big freakout?
David Fravor (2:48:53.520)
Or as some people suggest, the higher ups knew about it all along and just were not
David Fravor (2:48:58.560)
letting everyone know that there's some kind of secret military, uh, uh, you know, like,
Lex Fridman (2:49:05.560)
like tests.
David Fravor (2:49:06.560)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:49:07.560)
So let's talk about, so let's say you've got this cool new toy, which you call it a cool
David Fravor (2:49:11.200)
new toy.
David Fravor (2:49:12.200)
You typically don't take your cool new toy out into an area where the cool new toy could
David Fravor (2:49:15.640)
get damaged or what if the airplane would have actually hit your cool new toy and you
David Fravor (2:49:19.880)
got two people that are ejecting or dead and you got a, you know, $80 million airplane
David Fravor (2:49:23.900)
that's now in the bottom of the Atlantic, um, you know, tests are normally done in controlled
Lex Fridman (2:49:29.840)
environments.
David Fravor (2:49:30.840)
Just, it's like any test, a lab test or whatever.
David Fravor (2:49:32.720)
When you take things out into the real world, you know, you're still going to test it in
David Fravor (2:49:36.540)
an area where if something goes wrong.
Lex Fridman (2:49:38.280)
So when they started and we'll go back to Elon.
Lex Fridman (2:49:41.000)
So my friend that worked there, they had a rocket go off, they were out in Kwajalein
Lex Fridman (2:49:45.760)
and when the rocket went up, a fuel line ruptured in the rocket and it ran out of fuel before
David Fravor (2:49:50.480)
it got all the way up and it came falling back down.
David Fravor (2:49:53.040)
Well, when you're out on an ATOL in the Pacific, if it's going up above you, the worst case
David Fravor (2:49:58.120)
is going to land on you.
Lex Fridman (2:49:59.340)
So you're worried about where else is it going to land and it actually crashed next to the
David Fravor (2:50:02.800)
ATOL and, and, you know, Elon wasn't happy and threw this guy under the bus.
Lex Fridman (2:50:08.360)
So that's a test environment because you don't know what's going to happen.
Lex Fridman (2:50:12.780)
So cause someone said, well, when we chased the Tic Tac, well, it could have been some
Lex Fridman (2:50:15.780)
secret government thing.
David Fravor (2:50:16.780)
Well, secret government things typically just don't come out and test to where there's going
Lex Fridman (2:50:21.000)
to be.
David Fravor (2:50:22.000)
Unknowing pilots, you can't control a lot of things.
Lex Fridman (2:50:24.320)
You're exactly right.
Lex Fridman (2:50:25.320)
So you go, you know, it's, you know, it's not the Dr. Evil scientist that's going to
David Fravor (2:50:29.680)
throw shit out there to get, there's control and there's reasons that we do it because
David Fravor (2:50:34.860)
a lot of stuff, especially when you get to there's, there's, you build something in theory,
Lex Fridman (2:50:39.840)
you model it, you go, Hey, this is, it looks like it's going to work.
David Fravor (2:50:43.120)
You get funding, you build it, you test it some more, you bench test it.
David Fravor (2:50:47.840)
You know, you like an airplane with digital flight controls before it even leaves the
David Fravor (2:50:51.680)
ground.
David Fravor (2:50:52.680)
They've got things over the pedostatic system that are changing the, what the airplane thinks
David Fravor (2:50:56.540)
is the airspeed talking to it and it's probably up on Jack.
Lex Fridman (2:50:59.280)
So the gear up, so it doesn't, it thinks it's flying.
David Fravor (2:51:02.320)
It doesn't know it's sitting on Jack stands.
Lex Fridman (2:51:04.800)
And they're just changing the pressure on the pedostatic system so they can actually
David Fravor (2:51:07.680)
make the flight controls move and they can get all the data back to go, Hey, it looks
Lex Fridman (2:51:11.280)
like it's going to work.
Lex Fridman (2:51:12.560)
And then there's wind, there's a bunch of stuff that they do.
Lex Fridman (2:51:15.040)
That's a control environment which you can do the testing.
David Fravor (2:51:17.120)
Yeah.
David Fravor (2:51:18.120)
Throwing shit out in the middle of where people are doing exercises is the most preposterous
David Fravor (2:51:23.600)
thing that I've heard.
Lex Fridman (2:51:25.400)
Is it possible?
David Fravor (2:51:26.400)
Yes.
David Fravor (2:51:27.400)
Is it more really, is it, is it, is it, is it more likely, it's more likely they're not
David Fravor (2:51:33.020)
doing that.
David Fravor (2:51:34.020)
Then the other side of that question is why do you think people on the Nimitz and in the
Lex Fridman (2:51:40.720)
US government in general, not freak out more at the incredible thing that you've seen?
Lex Fridman (2:51:45.920)
Freak out in the positive way, freak out in the negative way.
Lex Fridman (2:51:48.880)
Like what are the Russians up to again?
Lex Fridman (2:51:51.440)
Or more like what is this?
David Fravor (2:51:53.760)
Like more turmoil.
Lex Fridman (2:51:55.800)
So if you would have put a Chinese flag on the side of it or a Russian flag on the side
David Fravor (2:52:00.200)
of it, and I said, yeah, it had a big Russian flag on the side of it, dude.
Lex Fridman (2:52:03.440)
Then it would have got a lot of attention.
Lex Fridman (2:52:04.960)
It would have went high order, right?
David Fravor (2:52:06.660)
If it was, you don't have to say Russia or China, just say if there was another country's
David Fravor (2:52:11.060)
emblem on the side of this thing that we saw and said, oh, it belonged to them, then it's
Lex Fridman (2:52:16.100)
a big deal.
Lex Fridman (2:52:17.820)
So here's what's going on.
Lex Fridman (2:52:18.820)
So we're literally in the middle of workups and it was a joint workup.
David Fravor (2:52:21.600)
Normally they, we go out for a month, go come back, do stuff, go out for a month.
David Fravor (2:52:24.360)
This was a two month at sea period where we actually had to beg for them to let us when
David Fravor (2:52:27.920)
the ship pulled in at Thanksgiving so we could run home up to the central valley, have Thanksgiving
Lex Fridman (2:52:31.680)
with our family, and then run back down and do this, okay?
Lex Fridman (2:52:34.380)
So when I had just taken over, I had had the squadron for a month, right?
Lex Fridman (2:52:40.780)
So I'm a brand new CO, I'm the most junior guy on the, as far as a commanding officer
David Fravor (2:52:46.300)
goes, for time in the Navy, and actually at the time I think it was the most junior CO
Lex Fridman (2:52:51.400)
for O5 Command in the Navy, right?
Lex Fridman (2:52:53.760)
So you go, okay, so I'm out here, I got my squadron, I'm running it, I see this thing,
Lex Fridman (2:52:59.520)
we catch shit for it.
David Fravor (2:53:00.640)
I have a squadron to run.
David Fravor (2:53:02.160)
I have the, the TICTAC was over here and although an extraordinary event, I have 17 aircrew
Lex Fridman (2:53:08.760)
and 300 sailors that I'm responsible for, right?
David Fravor (2:53:12.680)
Their wellbeing, making sure they're fed, making sure they're happy, they're birthing,
David Fravor (2:53:17.080)
you know, and I'm working with my Master Chief and I'm working with my XO, SNAP, and we're
Lex Fridman (2:53:22.160)
going through all this stuff.
David Fravor (2:53:23.800)
I don't have a lot of time to worry about the TICTAC.
Lex Fridman (2:53:28.440)
But people need to talk to me, so you got to remember, you got the captain of the ship,
David Fravor (2:53:32.560)
you got the air wing commander, and you got the Admiral.
Lex Fridman (2:53:35.000)
Those are the top three.
Lex Fridman (2:53:36.000)
And you got the CO of the Princeton, who is a major command guy, and that's really your
Lex Fridman (2:53:40.800)
big major command.
Lex Fridman (2:53:41.800)
And then everything else is you got all the squadrons, which are O5 Command, and you got
Lex Fridman (2:53:45.260)
the small boys that are out there, which is O5 Command.
Lex Fridman (2:53:47.220)
So in the hierarchy, as far as rank and responsibility of what's going on, I'm pretty much in the
Lex Fridman (2:53:53.280)
top 20 with all my peers, and then I've got, obviously, the captain and the admiral, right?
Lex Fridman (2:53:59.120)
And then he's got some post command guys on his staff that we were friends with.
Lex Fridman (2:54:02.560)
So you're responsible for a lot of things.
David Fravor (2:54:04.880)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (2:54:05.880)
Oh, yeah.
David Fravor (2:54:06.880)
Busy schedule.
Lex Fridman (2:54:07.880)
Yeah.
David Fravor (2:54:08.880)
There's missions.
Lex Fridman (2:54:09.880)
You have to do a lot, get the job done, and there's no time for silly things.
David Fravor (2:54:13.880)
That's exactly right.
David Fravor (2:54:14.880)
So, and we're the integration, you know, when a battle group deploys, especially when you
David Fravor (2:54:20.200)
go to the Middle East for what we were doing, the air power is the key.
David Fravor (2:54:24.320)
We take our airport with us, we can park it anywhere we want, and we can do what we need
David Fravor (2:54:28.380)
to do.
Lex Fridman (2:54:29.640)
So we're kind of key players.
Lex Fridman (2:54:30.720)
So when you get the theory that, oh, all these men in suits showed up.
Lex Fridman (2:54:33.780)
So the captain of the ship never said anything to me, the admiral never saying to me, the
David Fravor (2:54:37.360)
people on his staff that I was friends with never saying to me, the other COs that I talked
David Fravor (2:54:40.960)
to on a daily basis never said anything to me, and no one ever came and talked to me,
Lex Fridman (2:54:44.520)
and I'm the guy that chased it.
Lex Fridman (2:54:45.600)
So in all the theories and all the debunkers and all the stories, because I don't know
David Fravor (2:54:48.880)
if people think they're going to get rich on this because I made a big donut on this.
Lex Fridman (2:54:52.160)
I can tell you what I got paid for.
David Fravor (2:54:53.280)
I got paid to go out and spend 21 hours of my day going to LA and do a five minute talk
Lex Fridman (2:54:57.440)
for someone.
Lex Fridman (2:54:58.440)
And I'm like, and it wasn't for the talk because I'll talk for free because you're not paying
Lex Fridman (2:55:00.920)
me.
David Fravor (2:55:01.920)
I said, and then I got paid to go to the McMinnville Fest because my wife and I got to go because
Lex Fridman (2:55:08.040)
it was just looked like fun because the whole town gets involved.
Lex Fridman (2:55:10.800)
And it's the only time I've ever spoken publicly in front of a large audience about this because
Lex Fridman (2:55:14.760)
it was just, you know, it was fun.
Lex Fridman (2:55:16.120)
And I got asked and Jeremy and George Knappen went the year before.
Lex Fridman (2:55:18.760)
So I went with Bob Lazar.
Lex Fridman (2:55:21.080)
So I got to hang out with Bob and his wife and his wife and my wife and, you know, we
David Fravor (2:55:24.560)
all hung out kind of, you know, talking not about UFO stuff, but just getting to know
David Fravor (2:55:28.520)
each other as people because, you know, Bob's like me, the stuff that he talks about is
Lex Fridman (2:55:33.760)
not the center of his life.
David Fravor (2:55:34.760)
If anything, it ruined his life, you know, he's just a really, really smart guy.
Lex Fridman (2:55:40.180)
That's just like the rest of us trying to get through life.
David Fravor (2:55:42.800)
Yeah, nevertheless, I mean, that was one of the sad things reading Lou Elizondo's resignation
Lex Fridman (2:55:50.400)
note from his, he was a program director at the ATIP program.
David Fravor (2:55:59.400)
One of the sad things is that he's mentioned that, you know, people in government just
David Fravor (2:56:04.080)
don't take this seriously as a threat, like UFOs as a threat, like you said, if it doesn't
David Fravor (2:56:10.600)
have a Russian label on it, it's a sad thing to think about that, that we have such a busy
David Fravor (2:56:17.120)
schedule that the anomaly, it doesn't, is a distraction that we don't want to deal with
Lex Fridman (2:56:25.280)
and it kind of just fades into history.
David Fravor (2:56:29.200)
Like literally, it's kind of sad to think that if aliens showed up, like, and it just
David Fravor (2:56:38.880)
didn't because they're not, like when aliens show up, they're not going to be a thing that's
David Fravor (2:56:44.880)
on the schedule and if they don't start killing people, they just kind of show up in some
David Fravor (2:56:50.960)
very nonchalant peaceful way briefly.
Lex Fridman (2:56:57.680)
People would be like, that's, I don't have time for this.
David Fravor (2:57:02.480)
That's so sad.
Lex Fridman (2:57:03.480)
That's so sad.
David Fravor (2:57:04.480)
It's like anywhere in the world.
David Fravor (2:57:05.480)
So, you know, go back, let's go back way back, way back in the time machine, you know, there
David Fravor (2:57:11.600)
were people kind of scattered around the globe, you know, and Europe's a perfect example.
Lex Fridman (2:57:16.000)
Why does France speak French?
Lex Fridman (2:57:18.800)
And then right next to them, Spanish, you know, Spain speaks Spanish and then you'd
David Fravor (2:57:23.200)
kind of jump over and Germans are German and the Polish people, everyone speaks a different
David Fravor (2:57:27.700)
language because if you look at the way the train kind of subdivide the original people
Lex Fridman (2:57:31.840)
that were there, you know, thousands of years ago, they speak differently, right?
David Fravor (2:57:37.600)
You'd be like the US, but see, the US is different.
Lex Fridman (2:57:39.560)
We all speak English because what happened?
David Fravor (2:57:40.980)
We came over and we started on the east coast and we migrated west.
David Fravor (2:57:44.840)
We won't get into the, you know, what happened and, you know, because the Native Americans
David Fravor (2:57:48.460)
all spoke different languages, you know, it's that same type of thing.
David Fravor (2:57:52.400)
So, but anytime we have a tendency to show up, you're actually, you think about, you're
David Fravor (2:57:56.880)
an alien.
David Fravor (2:57:57.880)
If I went to a different area, if I just, you know, go back 500 years where, you know,
David Fravor (2:58:02.240)
or a thousand years where travel, we weren't traveling across oceans at the time.
David Fravor (2:58:05.640)
We were, well, we don't think we were, but the Vikings probably were because we had limited,
David Fravor (2:58:10.680)
you know, we had to have supplies and the boats weren't as big.
Lex Fridman (2:58:12.600)
We had to build them by hand.
David Fravor (2:58:13.600)
We didn't have power tools and all that stuff.
David Fravor (2:58:15.040)
So, you know, if you show up someplace like when the conquistadors from Spain came over
David Fravor (2:58:19.600)
into South America and you've got, you know, the natives, you're actually an alien, you
David Fravor (2:58:25.000)
know, and then you look at what typically happens when aliens show up in a human alien
David Fravor (2:58:30.040)
world, you know, and when I say alien, I mean, you are not from that area.
Lex Fridman (2:58:33.800)
The other, we take what we want.
Lex Fridman (2:58:38.640)
And that's what happened.
David Fravor (2:58:39.640)
I mean, we literally defuncted civilizations because that's how we are, you know, humans
David Fravor (2:58:45.560)
are, we're an interesting group.
Lex Fridman (2:58:48.000)
So you go, now what?
Lex Fridman (2:58:49.880)
What if something is from someplace else?
David Fravor (2:58:52.400)
Let's just, let's just go off the grid and go, let's say there are little green men.
Lex Fridman (2:58:57.720)
What are their intentions?
David Fravor (2:58:58.720)
Lou asked me this when we were talking to Lou Elizondo and he said, what do you think
Lex Fridman (2:59:01.160)
they were here for us?
Lex Fridman (2:59:02.160)
I said, I don't know.
Lex Fridman (2:59:03.160)
He goes, what?
Lex Fridman (2:59:04.160)
I go, I don't know.
David Fravor (2:59:05.160)
They were observing.
Lex Fridman (2:59:06.160)
They'd come down, they'd hang out.
Lex Fridman (2:59:07.160)
And he goes, well, what if they were prepping the battlefield?
Lex Fridman (2:59:08.720)
What if they were observing to figure out what we do?
Lex Fridman (2:59:10.880)
And you go, that's interesting.
David Fravor (2:59:12.760)
The other theory is maybe there's a more advanced civilization out here and they just check
David Fravor (2:59:16.920)
in on us because the threat to an advanced civilization is when a civilization that's
David Fravor (2:59:21.780)
inferior to them actually develops enough and fast enough to become equal or above.
David Fravor (2:59:27.040)
Because now these, they become the threatened type.
Lex Fridman (2:59:29.160)
So you watch us grow until we start getting too much.
David Fravor (2:59:32.160)
You know, it's kind of like you go, well, cause they always have a tendency to hang
Lex Fridman (2:59:34.440)
out around nuclear.
Lex Fridman (2:59:35.440)
Right?
Lex Fridman (2:59:36.440)
And you go, well, you know, if this is an advanced civilization, I'm going to go science
David Fravor (2:59:39.540)
fiction kind of comical.
David Fravor (2:59:40.800)
They come down and watch us and go, look at the, the crazy upright monkeys now have developed
David Fravor (2:59:45.840)
the atom bomb.
Lex Fridman (2:59:46.840)
Let's hope they don't destroy themselves.
David Fravor (2:59:47.840)
Yeah, if I was an alien civilization, I would start paying attention with the atom bomb.
David Fravor (2:59:52.120)
That's why the, I mean, there's certainly an uptick of, what is it, UFO sightings since,
David Fravor (30:01.560)
one because he was extremely brilliant and he had that inquisitive mind of, oh, we can
Lex Fridman (30:05.720)
do all these different things and there's all these degradation modes.
Lex Fridman (30:10.080)
But we spent a lot of time to see how good we could actually get, because, and it's,
Lex Fridman (30:15.280)
you almost talk in partials.
Lex Fridman (30:16.800)
So as the BN is looking at his radar scope, Chris would say, I've got rising terrain,
Lex Fridman (30:22.800)
that's just what they say, showing rising terrain at 12 miles.
Lex Fridman (30:25.640)
And I'd see the little bump and I'd say, got it.
David Fravor (30:28.680)
This is going to go to your question on the autonomy and how you work with two heads.
Lex Fridman (30:32.280)
So when you first get together, the interaction, it's almost like you have to rehearse it,
Lex Fridman (30:38.400)
you have to know, and you talk in full sentences.
David Fravor (30:42.240)
The more and more we fly together, Chris could go, I'm showing and he'd get like rising out
Lex Fridman (30:50.880)
and before he finished, I'd say, I've got it.
Lex Fridman (30:53.320)
So you end up starting to talk in partials because I have to trust him like, I mean,
David Fravor (31:00.800)
there can be no, I can have no doubt that he knows how to do his job because I'm literally
David Fravor (31:05.200)
looking at this little scope that's not giving me this continuous picture of that mountain
Lex Fridman (31:09.240)
moving.
David Fravor (31:10.240)
Remember the mountain's here and then it's going to pop up here and then it's going to
Lex Fridman (31:12.560)
pop up here because there's gaps in the coverage on how the system was set up.
David Fravor (31:16.400)
Remember it's an analog system to where he is telling me, like, I can't see all the way
David Fravor (31:20.680)
to the left and he's got a wider scope on the radar, but my screen doesn't show that.
Lex Fridman (31:25.640)
So he's telling me, start a left turn, start a hard turn, you know, and we would do that.
Lex Fridman (31:30.740)
So my truck.
Lex Fridman (31:31.740)
And this is all happening quick?
Lex Fridman (31:32.960)
Very quick.
David Fravor (31:33.960)
Well, you're doing, we would typically fly between 420 and 480 knots of ground speed.
Lex Fridman (31:38.960)
How many miles an hour?
David Fravor (31:39.960)
Well, 420 is seven miles a minute.
Lex Fridman (31:43.040)
Okay.
David Fravor (31:44.040)
Or eight, between seven and eight miles a minute is what you're flying.
Lex Fridman (31:46.560)
That's fast.
David Fravor (31:47.560)
At night.
Lex Fridman (31:48.560)
I mean, I broke out of clouds.
David Fravor (31:49.560)
I mean, I remember him and I flying, we were on, it's the IR, it's called an IR route, an
Lex Fridman (31:54.400)
instrument route that's low, they're all around the country.
David Fravor (31:57.320)
There's the IR 344 that we used to fly, which would coast in off of Oregon, you'd fly from
David Fravor (32:01.160)
the land, you go out over the ocean, turn around and then you could practice actually
David Fravor (32:03.820)
coming in on a coastline and we were flying and we ended up in the clouds.
David Fravor (32:10.320)
Keep in mind, we're between 500 and a thousand feet in the mountains and we're in the clouds.
David Fravor (32:13.760)
You can't see anything.
Lex Fridman (32:14.760)
And I had to turn off our red lights that flash, you know, they're called the anti collision
David Fravor (32:17.960)
lights because it was reflecting off the clouds and it starts to bother you, just gets annoying.
Lex Fridman (32:23.880)
So I turned it off and we were flying, we're flying, we're flying.
David Fravor (32:26.680)
We break out of that coastal marine layer and poof, we break out and it's a decent night.
Lex Fridman (32:32.200)
And this is right by Mount St. Helens.
David Fravor (32:33.640)
This is kind of where we're coming in.
Lex Fridman (32:34.640)
So we're coming in from the east and we're just north of Mount St. Helens is where the
David Fravor (32:37.240)
route goes.
Lex Fridman (32:38.440)
And you look up, you know, cause you can kind of see the silhouette of this mountain that's
David Fravor (32:41.180)
right next to you, but you're flying along.
David Fravor (32:42.920)
You're just like, you know, you got to trust and you can see houses, you can see the lights,
David Fravor (32:46.680)
they're above you.
Lex Fridman (32:47.680)
We're literally below people's houses flying down these valleys and stuff.
Lex Fridman (32:50.080)
So just incredible experience.
Lex Fridman (32:51.780)
So when you take that and then you move into an F18F.
Lex Fridman (32:55.500)
So now we're into modern technology that was actually built in this century and you're
Lex Fridman (33:01.680)
flying.
Lex Fridman (33:02.680)
So now, you know, the WIZO is behind us and we're not doing those night low levels, but
David Fravor (33:05.520)
that same type of crew coordination that has to happen because what you're doing is you're
David Fravor (33:11.720)
sharing the load.
Lex Fridman (33:13.080)
So most of the communications that go out of the airplane, the WIZO does all the talk
Lex Fridman (33:16.420)
and he's got actually, he uses his feet.
Lex Fridman (33:18.600)
That's the weapon systems operator in the back of an F18F.
Lex Fridman (33:21.920)
So he's going to run, well, the radar kind of runs itself now, but we have a situational
Lex Fridman (33:26.840)
awareness display and it's linked to all the other airplanes.
Lex Fridman (33:29.640)
Just out of curiosity, what's the situational awareness display?
Lex Fridman (33:31.880)
Because that term comes up a lot.
David Fravor (33:34.400)
Think of it as a God's eye view.
Lex Fridman (33:35.920)
So if you have the back of the Super Hornet has, well, the Block IIs has about an eight
David Fravor (33:39.800)
by 10 display for the WIZOs that they can look at.
Lex Fridman (33:43.320)
The pilot's is smaller.
David Fravor (33:44.320)
It's down between his, it's a six by six between his legs and they're getting ready to redesign
Lex Fridman (33:48.520)
that Boeing is.
Lex Fridman (33:49.560)
But when you looked, it'd be like if you put your airplane and you're looking down.
Lex Fridman (33:53.640)
So all the stuff, like if your radar seeing bad guys out in front of you, it'd be like
David Fravor (33:57.000)
looking down and going, oh, I'm right here.
Lex Fridman (33:58.640)
And now there's bad guys out here and my wingman is over here.
Lex Fridman (34:01.600)
And it shows everything.
David Fravor (34:02.600)
It's just like, it gives you, you can look at that display and go, oh, I can see where
David Fravor (34:06.760)
everything's at.
Lex Fridman (34:07.760)
I can see if one guy's trying to target another guy, it shows you all this.
David Fravor (34:10.760)
It's an incredible amount of knowledge that comes up for the crews to maintain the overall
David Fravor (34:18.660)
picture of what's going on because it's happening so fast and this is where that autonomy piece,
David Fravor (34:24.880)
this is the third brain.
Lex Fridman (34:26.460)
So we're all looking at it and the third brain is doing fusion.
David Fravor (34:29.500)
It's pulling stuff together going, oh, this is all this guy.
Lex Fridman (34:31.600)
This is this guy.
David Fravor (34:32.600)
This is this guy.
Lex Fridman (34:33.600)
It's sending it out through the link.
Lex Fridman (34:34.600)
So all the airplanes are talking to each other through this digital network that we don't
Lex Fridman (34:37.920)
even see.
David Fravor (34:38.920)
It just says, that airplane says, hey, I'm over here.
Lex Fridman (34:41.080)
And it tells us and we go, oh, he's right there.
Lex Fridman (34:43.500)
And then we can go, his airplane says, oh, I'm looking at this airplane, this bad guy.
Lex Fridman (34:47.960)
And it shows us, oh, he's over there and he's looking at this guy.
David Fravor (34:50.440)
I mean, it's an incredible amount of visual intake because your eye, you can hear a lot,
Lex Fridman (34:57.160)
but when you look down at stuff, it's, you know, you can sell the picture really quick.
David Fravor (35:00.440)
The third brain is doing the sensor fusion, the integration of the different sensors and
Lex Fridman (35:07.160)
gives you a big picture view.
Lex Fridman (35:08.680)
What about the control?
David Fravor (35:09.680)
Like, is there, and I apologize as if this is a dumb question, but you know, people use
David Fravor (35:15.240)
the high level term of autopilot.
Lex Fridman (35:17.560)
How much is there, let's use a loose term of AI.
Lex Fridman (35:22.720)
How much automation is there?
Lex Fridman (35:24.160)
How much AI is there in helping you control there?
David Fravor (35:27.560)
The AI piece would be more of a control loop because of the digital flight controls.
Lex Fridman (35:31.600)
So the airplane actually, they had to make the airplane easier to fly.
Lex Fridman (35:36.120)
And when I say easy, it's relative because people go, I could do it because I did it
Lex Fridman (35:38.800)
on flight sim.
David Fravor (35:40.600)
Real life is a lot different.
Lex Fridman (35:42.400)
In flight sim, you have no apparent fear of death.
David Fravor (35:44.240)
You'll do things on a simulator that you would never do in real life.
Lex Fridman (35:46.840)
But the autonomy in the airplane to allow you to manage, I mean, because you think about
David Fravor (35:52.680)
it, you've got a radar that's feeding you data.
Lex Fridman (35:55.760)
You've got a targeting pod that's feeding you data.
David Fravor (35:58.120)
All that stuff is hooked to your head because you've got a joint helmet mounted cueing system
David Fravor (36:01.640)
on that basically maps the magnetic field in the cockpit so it can tell where your head's
David Fravor (36:05.640)
at looking.
Lex Fridman (36:07.000)
So if I turn my head to the right, the radar will actually look to the right.
David Fravor (36:09.800)
The targeting flare will look to the right.
Lex Fridman (36:11.320)
And oh, by the way, the backseater has a helmet on too, so he can look to the left and he
David Fravor (36:15.960)
can do things.
Lex Fridman (36:16.960)
So depending on what sensor he's controlling, so if he's got control of the targeting pod
Lex Fridman (36:21.600)
and he looks left, the targeting pod looks left.
Lex Fridman (36:25.000)
But if I have something where I want to lock a guy up that I don't see, that maybe the
David Fravor (36:28.160)
radar didn't see, but I can get over and now point the radar, you know, get the, because
Lex Fridman (36:31.600)
it's a phased array radar now, it doesn't really scan.
David Fravor (36:35.160)
There's all kinds of cool stuff that that technology brings.
David Fravor (36:40.520)
Because if you just, if you went back 30 years and said, hey, or 40 years ago and said, hey,
David Fravor (36:44.400)
we're gonna have this helmet and you're gonna be able to slew everything to your head.
Lex Fridman (36:47.560)
And I don't mean a mechanical setup, but I mean literally you're just gonna map magnetic
David Fravor (36:51.200)
resonance and go, oh, look, and I can literally slew my sensors this fast and then mash a
David Fravor (36:57.520)
button and transfer, you know, high quality coordinates from a system into a joint, you
David Fravor (37:03.240)
know, a JDAM, which is a joint direct attack munition that is the GPS bombs that you see
Lex Fridman (37:07.520)
all the time, and then let that thing fly.
Lex Fridman (37:10.040)
And I'm solving this problem in seconds, vice minutes, or, hey, I got it, we're gonna have
David Fravor (37:15.480)
to menstruate coordinates and, you know, you bring back the data and then they do all the
David Fravor (37:18.940)
targeting for it and then they send another group out to get it instead of all that.
Lex Fridman (37:22.720)
Now it's that fast.
Lex Fridman (37:24.320)
So there's a, okay, I mean, we probably don't have enough time to talk about the beautiful
Lex Fridman (37:28.580)
fusion of minds that happens when two people are flying, controlling the plane.
Lex Fridman (37:33.400)
But at a high level, this is a really interesting question for people who don't know what they're
David Fravor (37:38.960)
talking about, like me, which is, what is the difference between a human being and an
Lex Fridman (37:46.000)
AI system?
Lex Fridman (37:47.320)
Like what can, what is the ceiling of a current AI technology for controlling the plane?
Lex Fridman (37:54.000)
Like how much does the human contribute?
David Fravor (37:57.360)
Is it possible to have automated flight, for example, like what is the hardest part about
David Fravor (38:04.240)
flying that a human does expertly that an AI system cannot in warfare situations in
Lex Fridman (38:12.280)
flying a fighter jet plane?
Lex Fridman (38:15.360)
So I would say AI systems are usually black and white.
David Fravor (38:20.640)
When you write the algorithm for an AI system, it's really, it's basically you're taking
Lex Fridman (38:26.680)
thought and turning it into a giant math problem is really what you're doing, right?
Lex Fridman (38:30.400)
So you've got this logical math problem.
David Fravor (38:32.840)
Math problems are, there's a line that says I can or I can't.
Lex Fridman (38:36.760)
And it's a very finite line, but you can go up to the line where a human, we all have
David Fravor (38:42.860)
gray areas where we go, eh, maybe, eh, I'll try it.
Lex Fridman (38:48.360)
So humans can operate within that gray.
Lex Fridman (38:50.120)
So if you took, if you take an airplane and say, and I'll just take a Hornet for a while,
David Fravor (38:53.680)
a Super Hornet, it doesn't matter, any airplane, and you go, here is the flight performance
David Fravor (38:57.840)
model of the airplane.
Lex Fridman (38:58.920)
So if you know what an EM diagram is, the energy, so it basically says the airplane
David Fravor (39:04.360)
can fly as slow as this, it can go as fast as this, it can pull this many Gs, force of
David Fravor (39:08.680)
gravity, so one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, and then based on the airfoil design
Lex Fridman (39:13.400)
and everything else and how it can pull, here's how it's going to fly, because it's really
Lex Fridman (39:18.040)
physics based.
David Fravor (39:19.160)
Well, if you, depending on how you write the AI, but typically AI, you don't want the airplane
Lex Fridman (39:23.960)
to leave controlled flight, right?
David Fravor (39:25.920)
You want to maintain it so that it is flying in a controlled envelope.
David Fravor (39:29.720)
Where there are times, and you can go back to World War I, where people intentionally
David Fravor (39:34.840)
departed the airplane from controlled flight in order to obtain an advantage, which is,
Lex Fridman (39:39.880)
that's where the human goes, can I do this?
David Fravor (39:42.600)
I know it's outside of where I would normally go, but I can do that.
Lex Fridman (39:46.400)
So you can do some crazy things now, especially since the flight control logic in modern airplanes
David Fravor (39:51.800)
with digital flight controls, they're extremely forgiving.
Lex Fridman (39:56.320)
So you can literally, I've done things in Super Hornets that literally, even as a pilot
David Fravor (3:00:00.880)
since the nuclear era, since the nuclear era.
Lex Fridman (3:00:03.400)
Yeah.
David Fravor (3:00:04.400)
You go, hmm.
David Fravor (3:00:07.920)
Let me ask a little bit out there question, maybe it's a speculation, but maybe touching
David Fravor (3:00:13.240)
on Roswell, do you think it's possible that there is out of this world aircraft or beings
Lex Fridman (3:00:26.160)
that are in the possession of one of the governments on this earth, like the US government?
Lex Fridman (3:00:32.800)
Is it possible?
Lex Fridman (3:00:34.560)
So the one perspective of that, if it's possible, is it possible to keep a secret like that?
David Fravor (3:00:40.840)
I would say this.
David Fravor (3:00:41.840)
I think it's very, it's highly possible because if you go, if you just look at all the sightings
Lex Fridman (3:00:46.760)
and let's go, just look at project Blue Book, it was what the, I forget how many thousands
David Fravor (3:00:51.000)
of sightings that there's a percentage, it's like 10 or 15% of them, they still can't explain.
David Fravor (3:00:55.780)
Like our Tic Tac is one of them that, you know, they basically, the government has come
Lex Fridman (3:00:58.320)
out and said, we don't know what that was.
David Fravor (3:00:59.920)
Okay.
David Fravor (3:01:00.920)
So, so if you go, okay, of that 15% that we don't know, and all of these thousands are
David Fravor (3:01:05.020)
still that 15% makes up a pretty big number.
Lex Fridman (3:01:07.840)
What are the chances that not one of them crashed somewhere on the globe and was recovered?
Lex Fridman (3:01:13.840)
And I don't care if it's an intact system or you've got pieces of it, of a metal that
David Fravor (3:01:18.360)
we can't explain or some, some biological matter to say the least, it could be intact
David Fravor (3:01:27.840)
or it couldn't, but the odds of that now are starting to go down that, you know, that could
Lex Fridman (3:01:32.600)
never happen.
Lex Fridman (3:01:33.600)
And I'm not talking just the United States, I'm talking the world.
Lex Fridman (3:01:36.440)
So is there a chance that a foreign government actually possesses or our government or someone
David Fravor (3:01:40.880)
in the, in the world on the globe of the seven plus billion people has something that is
Lex Fridman (3:01:46.420)
not from this world?
Lex Fridman (3:01:47.420)
And I'm not talking a meteor, but something that was manufactured in some way that allowed
Lex Fridman (3:01:52.000)
transport or observation.
David Fravor (3:01:54.620)
Could be a drone, could be a foreign drone, you know, like Voyager flies around and does
Lex Fridman (3:01:57.740)
all that stuff.
Lex Fridman (3:01:58.740)
And we've got stuff that just went past Pluto that's out in the Kuiper belt, you know, there's,
Lex Fridman (3:02:02.880)
there's stuff out there floating around.
Lex Fridman (3:02:04.080)
And what about ours, it's going to crash into Jupiter eventually or whatever, cause we've
Lex Fridman (3:02:07.560)
had stuff crash into planets.
Lex Fridman (3:02:09.640)
So if that's the case, you would think something is out there that we have something that we
Lex Fridman (3:02:14.400)
can't explain.
Lex Fridman (3:02:15.400)
And according to Lou, there's stuff that we can't explain, you know, and I would assume
David Fravor (3:02:19.640)
that Lou who ran a tip has, has seen stuff that he can't openly talk about because, you
David Fravor (3:02:25.920)
know, cause I had a clearance.
Lex Fridman (3:02:27.840)
When you have a clearance, you were, you sign your name, you're bound to that.
Lex Fridman (3:02:31.120)
And to me, that's an important oath that you hold to, you know, and this is kind of where,
Lex Fridman (3:02:36.760)
you know, people have issues with Bob.
Lex Fridman (3:02:39.320)
So if, you know, and I leave it to you to determine if you believe Bob or not.
Lex Fridman (3:02:42.520)
I'll tell you, Bob is a straightforward, very sane, normal, super smart guy.
David Fravor (3:02:47.400)
Bob Luzaro.
Lex Fridman (3:02:48.400)
Yeah.
David Fravor (3:02:49.400)
Yes.
David Fravor (3:02:50.400)
There is the other side that says, well, should he have come out and talked, you know, to
David Fravor (3:02:53.600)
those who will clearance who, you know, are true to the government, you would say he should
Lex Fridman (3:02:58.040)
have never spoke.
David Fravor (3:02:59.040)
He, he was under an oath to not say anything, but he did.
Lex Fridman (3:03:02.680)
If you ask Bob, why did you say something?
David Fravor (3:03:05.240)
His, his answer was, I understand there's an oath, but I felt that the technology could
Lex Fridman (3:03:10.780)
benefit all of mankind and it shouldn't be locked away.
Lex Fridman (3:03:14.000)
And I'll leave it.
Lex Fridman (3:03:15.000)
If you believe Bob, that's, that's kind of what Bob says.
Lex Fridman (3:03:17.440)
And that, that's such a interesting key point.
David Fravor (3:03:21.360)
If there is aircraft, a technology that's in the possession of the, say the US government,
Lex Fridman (3:03:28.100)
should they make that publicly known?
David Fravor (3:03:30.720)
This is the question of like, do we release stuff that can potentially change the nature
Lex Fridman (3:03:37.820)
of human civilization?
David Fravor (3:03:39.360)
Like the, the way we, the way we think about our place in the world, also the, if that
David Fravor (3:03:47.840)
technology is potentially useful for military applications, the nature of military conflict,
Lex Fridman (3:03:55.340)
should we release that information or not, if you were the government?
Lex Fridman (3:03:58.560)
So here, well, here's exactly how.
Lex Fridman (3:04:00.160)
So for, for classified information, the government is the people that classify it.
Lex Fridman (3:04:05.560)
So I can't go, I can't look at something and go, Oh my God, this Avion bottle is now a
Lex Fridman (3:04:09.920)
top secret.
David Fravor (3:04:10.920)
I can't, I don't have the authority, the ability or anyone to do that.
Lex Fridman (3:04:13.000)
That's the guard.
David Fravor (3:04:14.000)
That's up to the government.
Lex Fridman (3:04:15.000)
And I agree with that because I worked for the government for 24 years of my life.
Lex Fridman (3:04:17.600)
So I understand that.
Lex Fridman (3:04:21.460)
But now you go, there's reasons stuff is classified.
David Fravor (3:04:24.840)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (3:04:25.840)
And it has to do with, uh, sometimes information is classified by how it was obtained.
David Fravor (3:04:31.440)
It's just like the mob.
David Fravor (3:04:32.760)
If I have a spy and I'm a mobster and you're the counter mobster, but I have a guy on the
David Fravor (3:04:36.840)
inside that's feeding me information, I can't do it.
Lex Fridman (3:04:39.680)
And a perfect example is if you've ever seen the, uh, it's the Tom Cruise movie, what is
Lex Fridman (3:04:44.280)
it?
David Fravor (3:04:45.280)
Air America or whatever, but he, he plays the guy in Louisiana who was hauling drugs
David Fravor (3:04:48.960)
for Pablo Escobar and he ended up getting a cargo plane and the government, the CIA
Lex Fridman (3:04:53.720)
was kind of funding him to do stuff.
David Fravor (3:04:56.080)
That's how he got hooked up with Pablo, but they put cameras on his airplane and when
David Fravor (3:04:58.840)
Reagan had come out and said, here's pictures, we have proof that they're running these drugs.
David Fravor (3:05:03.220)
It didn't take Pablo long to figure out those pictures were taken from inside of the plane
Lex Fridman (3:05:06.600)
of this guy he had been working with and that guy ends up dead.
Lex Fridman (3:05:09.240)
Does that make sense?
Lex Fridman (3:05:10.800)
So you classify to protect the source, you classify to protect the technology because
David Fravor (3:05:15.840)
if the technology would get out, it could be grave damage or there's levels depending
Lex Fridman (3:05:20.180)
on if it's a secret or top secret.
David Fravor (3:05:22.200)
There are levels of damage that can be done to the U S government and our wellbeing as
Lex Fridman (3:05:25.720)
a country.
Lex Fridman (3:05:26.880)
And we owe it to this because we're all Americans.
David Fravor (3:05:29.560)
You know, to me, no matter what some people will say, even in this country, this is the
David Fravor (3:05:33.320)
greatest country on the planet.
Lex Fridman (3:05:35.360)
This is the only country that you have the ability to do what you want to do.
David Fravor (3:05:38.920)
It's just, don't be lazy.
Lex Fridman (3:05:40.260)
And I have stories of people that came over here and started with nothing and they're,
David Fravor (3:05:46.180)
they're living the American dream and they'll tell you, and they didn't get it because of,
David Fravor (3:05:49.720)
you know, like you, you came over here from Russia, you get no minority status or anything
David Fravor (3:05:56.440)
else.
David Fravor (3:05:57.440)
You get, you're a white Anglo Saxton Protestant, whatever your religion, but you come over
David Fravor (3:06:03.680)
here.
David Fravor (3:06:04.680)
I kind of knew that from the last, but, um, but you come over here, you basically have
David Fravor (3:06:09.240)
made yourself, you're educated, you're working at literally the top research university in
Lex Fridman (3:06:15.200)
the world.
David Fravor (3:06:16.280)
To be honest, um, I can do whatever the hell I can create a, with a bit of, with a lot
Lex Fridman (3:06:21.920)
of hard work, I can do quite a, and no one gave it to you.
David Fravor (3:06:25.120)
So, I mean, and I, well, I'm a believer that like that, I mean, we are a community.
Lex Fridman (3:06:32.240)
So like there is a social aspect to it, but the freedom and the American dream is a real
David Fravor (3:06:38.120)
thing.
Lex Fridman (3:06:39.120)
And this is this, I, you know, I joke about being Russian, but I, I'm an American and
David Fravor (3:06:43.680)
this is, I do believe the greatest country on earth.
Lex Fridman (3:06:46.280)
So there's a reason the nationalist pride, uh, the pride in your nation is a powerful
David Fravor (3:06:52.640)
thing.
Lex Fridman (3:06:53.640)
And around that, this secrecy holds value.
Lex Fridman (3:06:58.180)
But to me, alien technology is bigger than that.
David Fravor (3:07:03.600)
I mean, it's, it's not so much a threat as a, you're holding back something that could
David Fravor (3:07:11.440)
inspire the world, like human knowledge.
Lex Fridman (3:07:15.120)
So let's talk in theory.
Lex Fridman (3:07:16.400)
So I'm going to go back to Bob cause I've talked to Bob.
Lex Fridman (3:07:20.320)
So Bob is a propulsion guy, right?
David Fravor (3:07:23.920)
Right.
Lex Fridman (3:07:24.920)
Bob has a bicycle with a rocket motor.
David Fravor (3:07:26.200)
He built a rocket car, you know, so he did that.
Lex Fridman (3:07:29.440)
So if you are trying to figure out a propulsion system, let's just say this is, I'm just talking,
David Fravor (3:07:34.900)
this is Dave's theory.
David Fravor (3:07:36.940)
I am, I own, I have, I have custody of this thing from a technology that I don't understand.
Lex Fridman (3:07:44.800)
And I know it's a propulsion system.
Lex Fridman (3:07:46.820)
So now I got to figure it out, right?
Lex Fridman (3:07:49.380)
So who are you going to go to, right?
Lex Fridman (3:07:51.580)
You go find someone.
Lex Fridman (3:07:52.580)
So you go, wait, here's a guy who at the time was working at Los Alamos, which they have
Lex Fridman (3:07:57.440)
proven who is big into propulsion.
David Fravor (3:08:00.100)
He designs all this.
Lex Fridman (3:08:01.100)
He builds a shit in his garage, Hey, he's super smart.
Lex Fridman (3:08:05.120)
Why don't we bring him in?
Lex Fridman (3:08:06.720)
So you hire him on a contract and you go, Hey, we're going to brief you into a program.
Lex Fridman (3:08:09.720)
And he goes and works on wherever he says he worked, you know, that's not important,
Lex Fridman (3:08:12.680)
but you get access to the technology to try and figure it out.
Lex Fridman (3:08:15.820)
And then you go, well, you know, Bob comes out and says, you know, like we're figuring
David Fravor (3:08:19.460)
out these things, but there's a part where our technology isn't advanced enough for us
David Fravor (3:08:22.600)
to figure the whole thing out.
Lex Fridman (3:08:25.380)
So then, you know, and let's just say Bob doesn't come out and tell anyone he works
David Fravor (3:08:29.640)
on it until he gets to the point where he's stagnated.
Lex Fridman (3:08:33.520)
He's at a, he's at a wall.
David Fravor (3:08:34.740)
You go, I can't do it.
Lex Fridman (3:08:35.740)
You know, sometimes the best thing is to bring in a fresh mind.
Lex Fridman (3:08:37.580)
So you go find someone else who's into propulsion, you bring him in and they work, they can't
Lex Fridman (3:08:40.520)
figure it out.
David Fravor (3:08:41.520)
Or they get to the point where kind of back to the Einstein theory where, Hey, I've got
Lex Fridman (3:08:44.560)
all these theories on how it works, but we don't have the technology.
David Fravor (3:08:46.960)
We haven't advanced enough to actually do what we need to do.
Lex Fridman (3:08:49.220)
We still have to advance technology more.
Lex Fridman (3:08:51.280)
So then what do you do?
David Fravor (3:08:52.280)
You shelf it, you go, Hey, good projects over and the contract, you shelf it and you wait
David Fravor (3:08:57.280)
another 10 years and you wait another 10 years until technology and our abilities and our
David Fravor (3:09:02.440)
research advances more and then you go find new people to bring in that are experts in
David Fravor (3:09:06.720)
that field and go, Hey, we want you to work on this thing and here's what we know about
Lex Fridman (3:09:09.640)
it so far.
David Fravor (3:09:10.960)
Or you don't tell them anything because you, cause remember if you, if you reveal someone
Lex Fridman (3:09:15.600)
else's research, you can taint their beliefs.
David Fravor (3:09:17.600)
They'll start to sway in that direction.
Lex Fridman (3:09:18.920)
So you go, I'm not going to tell you anything.
David Fravor (3:09:20.920)
I'm going to give you this thing and now you tell me what you think.
Lex Fridman (3:09:23.200)
And as they progress, if they get stuck on a problem that maybe Bob and someone else
Lex Fridman (3:09:27.140)
solved earlier, you can go, Hey, what about this?
Lex Fridman (3:09:28.940)
You don't have to tell them where it came from.
Lex Fridman (3:09:30.260)
What about this?
Lex Fridman (3:09:31.260)
You can leapfrog and they get another two steps closer to the final answer.
Lex Fridman (3:09:35.880)
And then we get stuck by our evolution of technology and you shelve it again.
Lex Fridman (3:09:39.320)
Do you think that's the right way to do it?
David Fravor (3:09:41.540)
Because it's heartbreaking.
David Fravor (3:09:42.540)
I don't, listen, I love government, but we just had this discussion about Elon and so
David Fravor (3:09:48.840)
on.
David Fravor (3:09:49.840)
The, the alternative approach is to release this to the world and say, there's a mystery
David Fravor (3:09:56.680)
here.
Lex Fridman (3:09:57.680)
And then the Elons of the world, the Jeff Bezos, we talked about money, but it's also
David Fravor (3:10:00.880)
not just money.
David Fravor (3:10:01.920)
It's like this engine that's within, we talked about the American dream to say, I'm going
David Fravor (3:10:08.680)
to be the one that cracks this mystery open.
Lex Fridman (3:10:11.800)
And like, that's within a lot of us and like money aside, people in their garage just will.
Lex Fridman (3:10:17.940)
But you're thinking like a scientist.
Lex Fridman (3:10:19.400)
Now let me, now let's shift to, let me think like a country.
Lex Fridman (3:10:22.340)
So we have country A, B, and C, and you can look at the nuclear arms race.
Lex Fridman (3:10:26.480)
So we know that Germany was really close.
David Fravor (3:10:28.940)
We know that Russia was getting pretty close.
Lex Fridman (3:10:31.040)
We just won the race and we were the first ones with it.
Lex Fridman (3:10:34.680)
And still to this day.
Lex Fridman (3:10:35.680)
And Germany could have won.
David Fravor (3:10:36.880)
They could have won.
David Fravor (3:10:38.200)
They could have won, but someone was smart enough to not finish the equation when they
David Fravor (3:10:41.640)
knew they had the answer.
Lex Fridman (3:10:43.600)
It's literally what it comes down to.
David Fravor (3:10:45.000)
Someone was smart enough to realize if that, that got into the hands of the Nazis, that
Lex Fridman (3:10:49.920)
that would be the end.
Lex Fridman (3:10:51.880)
And that's, that's a tough call to do that, knowing that you have the answer and you can't
Lex Fridman (3:10:56.280)
solve the problem because it will go into the wrong end.
Lex Fridman (3:10:58.300)
And that's kind of the fear.
David Fravor (3:10:59.300)
When you look at this, you go, okay, so if we do this, if we put it out there, we've
David Fravor (3:11:03.960)
got this technology.
David Fravor (3:11:06.040)
If we don't work on it kind of international space station, like we're all going to work
David Fravor (3:11:09.080)
on it together in a, you know, like Antarctica is really supposed to be treaty free from
Lex Fridman (3:11:15.120)
any weapons or anything.
Lex Fridman (3:11:16.120)
And we're supposed to, you know, we've got the international thing down there.
Lex Fridman (3:11:17.840)
We're all going to work together.
David Fravor (3:11:19.200)
If you did it in a, in the confines of that and you could control the flow in and out,
David Fravor (3:11:24.600)
because what you don't want is the, someone stealing information and getting it back to
David Fravor (3:11:27.720)
where, and countries are notorious to do this, Hey, we're doing it internationally, but we're
Lex Fridman (3:11:31.280)
secretly doing it ourselves to see who can come up with a solution first.
David Fravor (3:11:36.000)
That's the problem because we have this inherent thing of power and technology like that is
Lex Fridman (3:11:40.680)
power.
David Fravor (3:11:41.680)
It would, it would literally change the game of the way the world operates and from not
David Fravor (3:11:46.120)
just a transportation or mankind, but from a military aspect, it's got huge, huge.
David Fravor (3:11:52.160)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:11:53.160)
Yeah.
David Fravor (3:11:54.160)
I, so beautifully, beautifully presented and there's, I feel like there's a tension between
David Fravor (3:11:59.560)
those two places, the scientist view of the world and the national security view of the
David Fravor (3:12:04.480)
world.
David Fravor (3:12:05.480)
Let me, let me get to this kind of interesting point, which is a lot of conspiracy theorists
David Fravor (3:12:12.240)
kind of paint a picture of government as an exceptionally, as a hierarchical system that's
Lex Fridman (3:12:17.360)
exceptionally competent and good at hiding secrets.
Lex Fridman (3:12:22.020)
And then, I mean, I tend to not subscribe to almost any conspiracy theory, to the degree
David Fravor (3:12:26.720)
at least that the conspiracy theorists do, but the, there does seem to be, and I tend
David Fravor (3:12:34.200)
to think of government as unfortunately incompetent, at least the bureaucracy.
David Fravor (3:12:41.340)
It seems that the communication, like the three videos that were released and just the
David Fravor (3:12:45.640)
way of DOD in general talks about the things we've been talking about, it's just confused.
Lex Fridman (3:12:54.400)
There's contradictory, it's not inspiring, it's, it's suspicious.
David Fravor (3:13:00.720)
It's just not even the way they released the videos.
David Fravor (3:13:03.880)
You know, the Tic Tac, if presented correctly, could just inspire a generation of scientists.
David Fravor (3:13:09.900)
It's like at the, you know, us going to the moon and it's inspiring.
David Fravor (3:13:15.640)
I mean, it's incredible, you know, and, and the way it was released, it was suspicious.
David Fravor (3:13:20.480)
It was like low resolution video on a crappy website, like with some crappy documents.
Lex Fridman (3:13:27.560)
And I mean, why, what is it?
Lex Fridman (3:13:29.880)
I don't know how to ask this question, but can government do better?
Lex Fridman (3:13:32.960)
Why are they doing it this way in terms of communicating the things they do know to the
Lex Fridman (3:13:38.040)
public?
Lex Fridman (3:13:39.040)
I don't know how, especially in this topic, it's been hidden for so many years.
Lex Fridman (3:13:44.520)
And I don't think, cause I don't buy off on the conspiracy stuff, I just think that, you
David Fravor (3:13:49.480)
know, when it comes in, like I said, you know, the government has the right to classify stuff.
David Fravor (3:13:53.960)
They classify everything cause they don't know.
Lex Fridman (3:13:56.480)
You have something, you don't know what it is, you don't know.
Lex Fridman (3:13:58.000)
So we just go, well, it must be, it must be top secret and let's put it in a vault.
David Fravor (3:14:01.880)
You know, it's kind of like the Indiana Jones where they take the ark and they put it in,
David Fravor (3:14:05.360)
it's in the giant army warehouse.
Lex Fridman (3:14:08.200)
You know, we don't even know what we have.
David Fravor (3:14:10.700)
So, but I also believe that, you know, and I'll say this openly, I don't think that the
Lex Fridman (3:14:15.440)
American people need to know everything.
David Fravor (3:14:17.360)
I think there's a reason that stuff is classified for the protection of this country.
Lex Fridman (3:14:22.980)
And I totally believe in that.
David Fravor (3:14:24.600)
So, you know, I was joking with Joe when he was talking about the storm area 51.
Lex Fridman (3:14:29.360)
So I'm like, yeah, that's probably the worst idea you could possibly have is to just storm
David Fravor (3:14:33.760)
a military installation.
Lex Fridman (3:14:35.680)
It's just stupid.
David Fravor (3:14:36.960)
There are reasons, there are reasons that we have things that we don't just let out
Lex Fridman (3:14:40.520)
to the public.
David Fravor (3:14:41.520)
Because if we do, as soon as you do let someone know that you have something, they immediately
Lex Fridman (3:14:46.880)
try to counter it.
Lex Fridman (3:14:48.080)
And perfect example, the U.S. in the 60s developed a bomber, it was a Mach 3 compression lift
Lex Fridman (3:14:54.440)
bomber called the XB 70.
David Fravor (3:14:56.200)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (3:14:57.200)
There was three of them built, three of them ever built.
David Fravor (3:14:59.940)
It was a like 60,000 foot high, you know, Mach 3, it was an incredible airplane when
David Fravor (3:15:05.200)
you see it, and there's actually the last one remaining is in Dayton, Ohio at the museum.
David Fravor (3:15:08.520)
You know, it would go, the wingtips would fold on, it looks like a Concorde, but it's
Lex Fridman (3:15:11.760)
way faster.
David Fravor (3:15:15.480)
When that got out that we were developing it, the Soviet Union developed the MiG 25,
Lex Fridman (3:15:20.800)
literally a high altitude interceptor to counter that bomber.
Lex Fridman (3:15:25.160)
And they built an entire fleet of MiG 25s, right?
Lex Fridman (3:15:29.680)
We built three XB 70s and we scrapped the program, right?
David Fravor (3:15:35.280)
Because now you go, well, the technology is cool, we proved it, but now it becomes obsolete.
Lex Fridman (3:15:40.440)
So it's not even worth building a whole fleet of these things.
David Fravor (3:15:43.260)
You know, it's a chess game.
David Fravor (3:15:44.660)
We do something, they do something, we do something, they do something, and we do something
Lex Fridman (3:15:48.520)
and then they counter it.
Lex Fridman (3:15:49.520)
You got to figure out how to defeat it.
Lex Fridman (3:15:51.360)
So you go, oh, we'll build something.
Lex Fridman (3:15:53.080)
So the more we keep quiet, especially from a defense standpoint, the better.
David Fravor (3:15:58.880)
Actually, personally, I think we talk too much.
Lex Fridman (3:16:01.200)
And I think the military and the DOD is starting to see that we're too open.
David Fravor (3:16:07.440)
You announce, hey, we're building this because there's a budget line and we live in a free
David Fravor (3:16:10.120)
society, but you don't have to release all the specs and you don't have to put everything
David Fravor (3:16:16.820)
in open source.
Lex Fridman (3:16:18.000)
But that's a problem when we go to the universities.
David Fravor (3:16:21.400)
If we want to go do work with MIT and you want to partner with MIT and you're a defense
David Fravor (3:16:24.880)
company and you want to partner, you know, you guys have a rule that if you create it,
David Fravor (3:16:29.240)
then it can be open source because the university owns it and we are an institution of learning.
David Fravor (3:16:34.320)
Where the defense side might go, we don't really want that published in a paper in Scientific
David Fravor (3:16:38.840)
America.
Lex Fridman (3:16:39.840)
It's so heartbreaking.
David Fravor (3:16:40.840)
I talked to CTO of Lockheed, Keiko Jackson, and just Concord's.
David Fravor (3:16:47.240)
Some of the best, if not the best engineering and science, but engineering really ever is
David Fravor (3:16:54.040)
done in secrecy and it sucks because it's so inspiring and they can't talk about it.
Lex Fridman (3:17:01.080)
It is, but some of it's due to funding.
David Fravor (3:17:03.320)
The US government has deep pockets.
David Fravor (3:17:04.880)
You know, some of this new technology that you develop for an open source and lesson,
David Fravor (3:17:08.960)
this goes back to the original conversation.
Lex Fridman (3:17:11.200)
We now, there's enough money in the private sector that individuals control.
David Fravor (3:17:15.520)
Bezos, I'm not talking Amazon.
David Fravor (3:17:19.160)
I'm talking Jeff Bezos, a single individual worth over a hundred billion dollars.
David Fravor (3:17:23.720)
He has the ability to do stuff.
David Fravor (3:17:25.280)
I'll tell you what, the Gates Foundation with between Bill Gates and his wife and Warren
David Fravor (3:17:31.360)
Buffett and some of the other money, because I think Bezos's ex wife actually donated a
Lex Fridman (3:17:36.680)
huge chunk of her half into the Gates Foundation.
Lex Fridman (3:17:40.120)
What's the Gates Foundation worth these days?
Lex Fridman (3:17:43.200)
These are guys, brilliant, brilliant.
Lex Fridman (3:17:46.760)
Some of the greatest minds that we have to go, what are they doing?
David Fravor (3:17:49.520)
Because they have the ability to, it's a nonprofit, they can go, hey, I want to fund this.
David Fravor (3:17:52.520)
I want to fund this research.
Lex Fridman (3:17:53.800)
They can look beyond the conflict between nations.
David Fravor (3:17:56.000)
You can look beyond the conflict of having to have classification.
Lex Fridman (3:17:59.720)
You could do what you want.
David Fravor (3:18:01.880)
It's just like, we classify how to do the whole nuclear, how to create a critical mass.
Lex Fridman (3:18:10.540)
But there's really smart high school kids that have figured it out mathematically and
David Fravor (3:18:13.640)
they do their science project.
Lex Fridman (3:18:14.640)
And then the government comes in and says, hey, we got to classify your government because
David Fravor (3:18:17.160)
we just don't want this out in the public domain, which I understand.
Lex Fridman (3:18:20.600)
And they never stopped them from free thought and developing that.
David Fravor (3:18:23.640)
It's just, hey, we really don't want this out there.
Lex Fridman (3:18:26.240)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (3:18:27.240)
So I understand that.
Lex Fridman (3:18:28.240)
I totally understand that.
Lex Fridman (3:18:29.240)
But if Bill and Melinda want to do this and go, hey, we want to do this and they're going
David Fravor (3:18:33.400)
to work with Bezos and they're going to work with Elon and we're going to, I mean, you
David Fravor (3:18:36.760)
think about it.
David Fravor (3:18:37.760)
There's a significant amount of money that could be available to R&D and I'm not talking
David Fravor (3:18:41.080)
just science like this, I'm talking medical research and all this.
Lex Fridman (3:18:45.040)
But then you go, well, who gets it?
David Fravor (3:18:46.280)
Because now you're competing against the companies that actually do it.
Lex Fridman (3:18:49.720)
You go, is that, well, are they the greatest minds?
David Fravor (3:18:52.000)
I'd say, you know, we have a tendency to go, these are the best that we have.
Lex Fridman (3:18:58.160)
And I'd say, well, no, that's the best that we know we have.
Lex Fridman (3:19:00.760)
But there's probably people out there that don't want to work.
David Fravor (3:19:03.080)
There's brilliant minds that don't want to do anything with defense because they just
David Fravor (3:19:05.740)
disagree with what it does.
Lex Fridman (3:19:07.380)
So they go to another path, they can do something else.
Lex Fridman (3:19:10.320)
And in a sense, like the Elons of the world that Jeff Bezos actually in a certain sense
Lex Fridman (3:19:17.080)
much better than DOD at finding the brilliant, weird minds out there.
David Fravor (3:19:23.040)
Because they're not tied to the government.
Lex Fridman (3:19:24.320)
So when you work a government contract, the government writes, they tell you what they
David Fravor (3:19:28.840)
want and then they work with you on the requirements and they usually have an end in mean.
Lex Fridman (3:19:33.640)
You know, they have an idea that this is what I want it to be.
David Fravor (3:19:36.840)
Where if you go to like SpaceX, where, you know, they come up with, why don't we just
Lex Fridman (3:19:43.880)
land these things on a pad and reuse them?
David Fravor (3:19:46.440)
Well, if the government scientist, if you're on a government contract says, no, that's
Lex Fridman (3:19:49.680)
not the requirements.
David Fravor (3:19:50.680)
We're not paying for that.
Lex Fridman (3:19:51.680)
We want you to do this.
David Fravor (3:19:52.680)
You're kind of controlled.
David Fravor (3:19:53.840)
Or when Elon does it, his company, they can do whatever the hell they want to do because
David Fravor (3:19:57.000)
they have no bounds.
David Fravor (3:19:58.620)
The only bounds they have is the liability if it doesn't work and it lands on something.
Lex Fridman (3:20:02.220)
So what do you do?
Lex Fridman (3:20:03.220)
You go out to Kwajalein and you test it.
Lex Fridman (3:20:04.220)
And if it crashes and it lands in the ocean, hey, we clean it up.
Lex Fridman (3:20:06.640)
No big deal.
David Fravor (3:20:07.640)
We lost some money, but we'll move on.
David Fravor (3:20:10.000)
It's, you know, money makes the world go around contrary to what everyone thinks.
David Fravor (3:20:13.960)
But, you know, there's a lot of money that's sitting around that you can do a lot of really
Lex Fridman (3:20:17.080)
cool stuff with.
Lex Fridman (3:20:18.080)
And I don't know.
Lex Fridman (3:20:19.080)
I mean, I'll guarantee that, what is it, Blue Origin, isn't that Amazon?
David Fravor (3:20:23.640)
You know, that they're doing some cool stuff because they have funny.
Lex Fridman (3:20:26.520)
And I joke with the guy I know that worked at SpaceX and he was funny because they were
David Fravor (3:20:30.940)
building the first test thing and they were limited.
Lex Fridman (3:20:35.320)
And Elon found this like 400 acre thing, I think it's about 400 acres down by Waco, Texas.
Lex Fridman (3:20:42.000)
And he's like, I go, how, he goes, dude, I worked, he goes, I worked with, he goes, because
Lex Fridman (3:20:46.840)
he's done government contract.
David Fravor (3:20:47.840)
He goes, there's government contract.
Lex Fridman (3:20:49.040)
And then there's working at SpaceX with Elon money.
Lex Fridman (3:20:51.720)
And that's what he refers to it as, is Elon money, where it was like, don't, I'll throw
Lex Fridman (3:20:55.220)
them and he would throw the money at it and make it happen.
Lex Fridman (3:20:57.460)
And it's, I'm talking this fast.
Lex Fridman (3:20:58.960)
I mean, he talks about, he has a great story about this.
David Fravor (3:21:01.800)
I mean, this is Elon, but this is how fast you can do in the private sector vice the
Lex Fridman (3:21:04.740)
government where there's the bureaucracy is.
David Fravor (3:21:07.160)
They had a company that was a, basically a tool and die machine shop that did a lot of
Lex Fridman (3:21:11.240)
their high precision parts for the rockets.
David Fravor (3:21:15.600)
They had went to the guy, but he had contracts with other companies.
Lex Fridman (3:21:18.080)
And when the economy was down, the guy was actually looking at going out of business.
Lex Fridman (3:21:22.360)
So the guy I know, he's telling me the story.
Lex Fridman (3:21:24.860)
He was talking to the guy, he had to go over there and get something.
Lex Fridman (3:21:26.840)
And he's like, holy shit.
Lex Fridman (3:21:27.840)
He goes, hang on.
Lex Fridman (3:21:28.840)
So he calls up on the phone, SpaceX, he says, Hey, is Elon there?
Lex Fridman (3:21:32.280)
Can you get them in the boardroom?
David Fravor (3:21:33.280)
We'll be there in 20 minutes.
Lex Fridman (3:21:35.280)
So he grabs this guy who's literally going to fold his company.
David Fravor (3:21:39.160)
They go over to SpaceX and I may be getting some of this wrong if people are going to
Lex Fridman (3:21:42.640)
fact check me, but this is pretty close.
David Fravor (3:21:44.820)
They go in the boardroom and he said, literally within like an hour or two, Elon has bought
Lex Fridman (3:21:52.600)
the guy's company.
David Fravor (3:21:53.780)
That guy is now a senior VP running his company.
Lex Fridman (3:21:57.340)
And they're going to pull all the stuff into the SpaceX thing so they can actually build
David Fravor (3:22:01.200)
the parts and they can still contract out to make the money outside.
Lex Fridman (3:22:05.440)
And it happened like that fast.
David Fravor (3:22:07.200)
It's not just money, it's because I've witnessed it too with Elon.
David Fravor (3:22:10.880)
I think it's whatever the forces of capitalism that allow a person like Elon Musk to rise
David Fravor (3:22:19.120)
to the top, because I've also worked for DARPA for research in terms of a source of funding.
Lex Fridman (3:22:27.140)
There's a weight of bureaucracy when I was working, being funded by DARPA.
Lex Fridman (3:22:32.200)
And with Elon, I was literally in the presence of anything is possible, cutting across all
David Fravor (3:22:37.180)
the bullshit of paperwork, of the way things were done in the past, of the bureaucracy,
David Fravor (3:22:43.080)
the rules, the constraints, all of that stuff, just you can cut across immediately.
Lex Fridman (3:22:48.280)
How much money and time do you waste dealing with your bureaucracy when you could actually
Lex Fridman (3:22:51.480)
be doing real work?
Lex Fridman (3:22:53.200)
That's the difference.
David Fravor (3:22:54.200)
This is why I honestly, when I went back to the industrial defense complex that we were
David Fravor (3:22:58.400)
warned about, when you look at it and go, SpaceX can do something for half the price
David Fravor (3:23:03.200)
ahead of schedule that what Boeing, we're paying Boeing, and you go, oh, well, this
Lex Fridman (3:23:08.120)
just came out.
Lex Fridman (3:23:09.120)
And you go, well, then why are we even dealing with this side when we can deal with this
Lex Fridman (3:23:12.520)
side?
David Fravor (3:23:13.620)
Because you've got a fully automated capsule that has a manual mode that they got to fly
Lex Fridman (3:23:17.240)
around in.
David Fravor (3:23:18.660)
It worked like a champ.
Lex Fridman (3:23:19.760)
It went up, it hung out, it came back, it splashed down.
David Fravor (3:23:23.720)
It worked perfectly.
Lex Fridman (3:23:25.960)
We're going to dust it off.
Lex Fridman (3:23:26.960)
And oh, by the way, unlike the Apollo capsules that were used and then put to museums, they're
Lex Fridman (3:23:32.480)
going to reuse that dragon capsule.
David Fravor (3:23:34.040)
It came down, they're going to dust it off, put a new coat of paint on it, slap it on
Lex Fridman (3:23:36.920)
top of another rocket and away it goes.
David Fravor (3:23:39.960)
Holy cow.
Lex Fridman (3:23:40.960)
It's amazing.
David Fravor (3:23:41.960)
It's a shift.
Lex Fridman (3:23:42.960)
It's a complete shift in mentality.
Lex Fridman (3:23:43.960)
And for us as taxpayers, we can explore at half the cost.
David Fravor (3:23:47.240)
It's exciting, especially given putting the Tic Tac in context, like then the sky or it's
David Fravor (3:23:54.680)
limitless the possibilities we could do with this kind of mechanism.
Lex Fridman (3:23:57.480)
I think it's exciting.
David Fravor (3:23:58.480)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:23:59.480)
I think we live in an exciting time right now.
David Fravor (3:24:00.480)
This is everything that's messed up in the world right now.
David Fravor (3:24:02.800)
Well, this is a hopeful, like there's so much conflict going on, so much tension.
David Fravor (3:24:08.000)
That's to me, space exploration at the moment is a reason to get up in the morning and have
Lex Fridman (3:24:14.240)
a hope for the future, to look up to the sky and we're humans.
David Fravor (3:24:18.400)
We can solve so many, we can solve all of this.
David Fravor (3:24:22.080)
I was talking about when I was doing the Tucker thing and I said, this would be great, because
David Fravor (3:24:26.880)
then the government had come out a month ago and said, hey, this does exist.
Lex Fridman (3:24:30.800)
We're doing this and we're going to release more stuff.
Lex Fridman (3:24:33.840)
And I was texting like Lou and Chris Mellon and those guys before I went on, because they
David Fravor (3:24:38.080)
had called me up to be on Tucker's show and I'm like, hey, I go, this would be great.
David Fravor (3:24:42.700)
Just come out with this, find the relic of a spaceship, like pull out the Roswell wreckage
Lex Fridman (3:24:48.200)
if you have it, pull out the Roswell wreckage and do it.
David Fravor (3:24:51.520)
God, it would be so nice to not have to deal with the riots in the cities.
David Fravor (3:24:57.320)
I know it's an election year and all that, but God, it would be refreshing to not have
David Fravor (3:25:01.320)
to turn on my TV and see everything that is just depressing in the world.
David Fravor (3:25:05.480)
To begin, holy cow, we actually do have this and we're working on this technology.
David Fravor (3:25:09.640)
Imagine if there is a Roswell aircraft and they pull it out, imagine the innovation that
Lex Fridman (3:25:14.220)
happens in the next 10 to 20 years without any more information than that.
David Fravor (3:25:19.500)
Just the innovation that happens, the look on Elon Musk's face, the look on Jeff Bezos's
Lex Fridman (3:25:24.080)
face and all the brilliance in years.
David Fravor (3:25:25.840)
It would change the game.
Lex Fridman (3:25:26.840)
It would change the game.
David Fravor (3:25:27.840)
It would change the game completely.
Lex Fridman (3:25:28.840)
Let me ask the big question, I apologize for the absurd romantic nature of it.
David Fravor (3:25:33.560)
Outside, I mean, one of the things, the fact that you've laid your eyes on a UFO probably
David Fravor (3:25:42.000)
opened your eyes to the possibility that some of the other sightings, there could be other
David Fravor (3:25:48.160)
sightings that have legitimacy to them.
Lex Fridman (3:25:50.800)
What to you is the, outside of your own sighting, is the most interesting sighting or UFO related
Lex Fridman (3:25:59.180)
event in history?
Lex Fridman (3:26:01.520)
I think there's several.
Lex Fridman (3:26:03.000)
What is it?
David Fravor (3:26:04.000)
Ramassan Forest in England, the US guys that saw stuff and actually got radiation burns.
David Fravor (3:26:09.640)
One guy was medically disabled, but they weren't going to give him and he had help from John
Lex Fridman (3:26:14.120)
McCain.
David Fravor (3:26:15.120)
His office helped get the guy's disability reestablished.
Lex Fridman (3:26:20.000)
I think that's a big one.
David Fravor (3:26:22.720)
I think there's people out there that have seen stuff and I'm talking credible because
David Fravor (3:26:27.040)
there's, you got to remember, there's a huge chunk of the sightings that get disproven.
David Fravor (3:26:31.440)
They're actually explainable.
Lex Fridman (3:26:35.000)
You had sent me the question, the Phoenix lights, I think there's...
Lex Fridman (3:26:39.760)
What's that?
Lex Fridman (3:26:40.760)
So I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with some of these.
David Fravor (3:26:43.360)
I'm not either, you want a funny story on that.
Lex Fridman (3:26:46.200)
So I was at a conference, hopefully he doesn't watch this and get offended, but we had this,
David Fravor (3:26:53.760)
I call it speed dating.
Lex Fridman (3:26:54.960)
So there was a table, about eight people at a table and we would go sit at the table and
David Fravor (3:26:58.680)
they could ask us questions and then after 10 minutes we moved to the next table.
Lex Fridman (3:27:02.000)
So I was speed dating all these people that are really into this.
David Fravor (3:27:04.880)
It was kind of funny, but I had sat down and it's always funny because some people will
David Fravor (3:27:08.720)
try and dominate it, but you have to kind of push the dominators away so that if you're
David Fravor (3:27:13.320)
quiet and introverted, you can ask your question too.
Lex Fridman (3:27:16.560)
So we got into this and the guy starts naming all these, well, what about this?
Lex Fridman (3:27:19.500)
What about the Phoenix lights?
Lex Fridman (3:27:20.500)
I'm like, I don't know about the Phoenix lights.
Lex Fridman (3:27:21.640)
What about this event?
Lex Fridman (3:27:22.640)
I don't know about that.
David Fravor (3:27:23.640)
He goes, he looks at me and he goes, well, you're not a UFO guy.
Lex Fridman (3:27:26.720)
I go, no, I'm not, but I chased one.
Lex Fridman (3:27:29.240)
So I'm an expert.
Lex Fridman (3:27:30.240)
Have you?
Lex Fridman (3:27:31.240)
And you could see him get deflated because I'm kind of a smart ass like that.
David Fravor (3:27:33.960)
Yeah, I mean the firsthand experience from a credible, in some sense these sightings
David Fravor (3:27:38.600)
have to do both with the evidence and the human.
David Fravor (3:27:41.440)
Well, I think part of that is to us, that's a credibility piece because the four of us
David Fravor (3:27:46.200)
that actually saw it, plus the other two that were in the airplane that shot the video,
Lex Fridman (3:27:50.840)
none of us are UFO obsessed people.
Lex Fridman (3:27:53.560)
So when we come out and say, because to me it's five minutes of my life, I did a lot
Lex Fridman (3:27:59.200)
of really cool, I've had really kind of neat things I've been able to do.
Lex Fridman (3:28:06.400)
But when you look at it and go, to me it's not the pinnacle of my life.
David Fravor (3:28:14.280)
To other people that they live in the UFO world and it's like they, if you talk to people
David Fravor (3:28:18.920)
that are really into it, who've never seen one, it kills them that they didn't see one.
David Fravor (3:28:26.440)
When here we are, and what's unique with ours, which kind of adds that level is we just didn't
David Fravor (3:28:30.920)
see it.
Lex Fridman (3:28:31.920)
It wasn't like, oh look, something in the sky and it was weird.
David Fravor (3:28:34.880)
We actually engaged with it, it was an engaged five minute thing.
Lex Fridman (3:28:39.000)
And there's other stories from other countries, like there's a story in the back when the
David Fravor (3:28:44.080)
Soviet Union existed that they actually would chase these things and one of them shot at
David Fravor (3:28:49.080)
some, it shot it because they said shoot at it and it shot it and then it got shot down.
Lex Fridman (3:28:53.480)
And then they said, don't ever shoot at them again and don't chase them, just you can observe
David Fravor (3:28:56.880)
them, but don't go after them because obviously they have firepower that we can't control
David Fravor (3:29:00.320)
because if you can make something float around and jam radars at will and do whatever you
Lex Fridman (3:29:03.920)
want, modern terrestrial weapons are probably not very useful.
David Fravor (3:29:09.760)
You can go to Independence Day, they had that force field around, oh, we got to, now you
David Fravor (3:29:13.120)
got a cyber warfare, you got to take the bug down, you got to take the warfare, so now
David Fravor (3:29:16.440)
we can actually inhibit some type of damage.
Lex Fridman (3:29:19.000)
So there's, I mean, you mentioned the Phoenix lights, somebody on I think Reddit said, ask
David Fravor (3:29:25.060)
them any thoughts on mass UFO sightings like the Phoenix lights.
Lex Fridman (3:29:28.720)
So the interesting thing, like you said with the Tic Tac is that multiple people laid their
David Fravor (3:29:33.200)
eyes on this.
Lex Fridman (3:29:34.760)
What are your thoughts about the Phoenix lights where many people have seen it?
Lex Fridman (3:29:37.280)
So here's the deal with massive sightings.
Lex Fridman (3:29:39.960)
So the Phoenix lights is unexplainable, although I know the Air Force had said something about
David Fravor (3:29:43.320)
it was an A10 drop in flares.
Lex Fridman (3:29:44.800)
No, I don't think so.
David Fravor (3:29:47.320)
Flares don't burn that long, they just come out and they detract and they go away.
David Fravor (3:29:51.720)
Although on the other hand, there's, because clouds can do things, so I lived in Central
David Fravor (3:29:55.800)
California for 18 years and you would get, oh my God, what was that in the sky and it
Lex Fridman (3:30:01.040)
was really Vandenberg shooting a missile off.
David Fravor (3:30:03.460)
They were doing ICBM tests at one time where they shoot from Vandenberg and they fly across
Lex Fridman (3:30:07.260)
and they go land in the Atoll at Kwajalein and then they can check the displacement,
David Fravor (3:30:11.640)
the accuracy and all that stuff, it's stuff that we do because we're a superpower.
Lex Fridman (3:30:16.720)
But when you see them go up, especially if you've ever watched a rocket really launch
David Fravor (3:30:19.880)
on a clear night, it'll have the stream, the glow, and you can tell it's a rocket, but
David Fravor (3:30:22.960)
if you don't look up until later when it starts to get to the outer edge of the atmosphere
David Fravor (3:30:26.740)
where the plume coming out of the engine is not constrained, and you can watch this on
David Fravor (3:30:31.180)
TV when even the SpaceX ones go up, it's nice and narrow, narrow, narrow, and then it hits
David Fravor (3:30:34.920)
a point where it really starts to go up and it starts to come to the sides because the
David Fravor (3:30:38.600)
forces aren't holding that all into one unique thing and it looks really odd and then it'll
David Fravor (3:30:43.760)
go off because it burns out and then you get stage separation, then you see the next one
Lex Fridman (3:30:48.380)
go off and then it's gone.
Lex Fridman (3:30:51.320)
And people don't understand that because they didn't watch it from launch because we used
David Fravor (3:30:53.920)
to sit in our driveway and Vandenberg, it was a three hour drive, but you could sit and
David Fravor (3:30:57.400)
watch it.
David Fravor (3:30:58.400)
You knew they were launching at night, you'd watch, you'd watch and it's really cool.
David Fravor (3:31:02.520)
If you don't see anything, what you see is the weird clouds from the exhaust plume, what's
David Fravor (3:31:06.200)
left, the residue that's sitting in the atmosphere and the wind starts blowing it so you get
David Fravor (3:31:10.080)
these really kind of weird shapes in the sky.
David Fravor (3:31:13.400)
That's part, but when you go to Phoenix Lights and you go, hey, when a thousand people see
David Fravor (3:31:17.160)
something, are you going to discredit all a thousand people or are you going to try
Lex Fridman (3:31:19.440)
and explain it away with something else, you know, it's a weather balloon, it's a weather
David Fravor (3:31:26.760)
balloon.
David Fravor (3:31:27.760)
Again, just like the Tic Tac, I think is just inspiring for the limitless nature of the
David Fravor (3:31:34.160)
science.
Lex Fridman (3:31:35.760)
I think more is going to come out.
David Fravor (3:31:37.400)
I think some of the stuff that the To The Stars folks have done.
Lex Fridman (3:31:42.760)
So there's a To The Stars Academy.
Lex Fridman (3:31:44.880)
What are your thoughts about them?
Lex Fridman (3:31:45.880)
Are they?
David Fravor (3:31:46.880)
I talk to them quite a bit.
Lex Fridman (3:31:48.520)
I'm not a part of To The Stars Academy.
Lex Fridman (3:31:52.280)
But I talked to Lou, I just was texting him before this.
Lex Fridman (3:31:57.320)
What's their mission?
Lex Fridman (3:31:58.320)
What's their hope?
David Fravor (3:31:59.320)
When they started, their mission was to try and, don't look at this as little green men,
Lex Fridman (3:32:06.380)
but let's look at this as a technology and let's try and almost reverse engineer and
David Fravor (3:32:11.600)
figure out how these things operate and how can we explain this from using our knowledge,
Lex Fridman (3:32:17.240)
workspace knowledge to go, how would something like this operate?
David Fravor (3:32:20.080)
That's really their bottom line was to try and use and then couple that with, because
David Fravor (3:32:24.520)
they've got the series unidentified, couple that with television to get the word out.
Lex Fridman (3:32:31.600)
So you're actually putting something instead of...
David Fravor (3:32:34.800)
Because everyone has a theory, you know, Ancient Aliens covers all kinds of theories, you know,
David Fravor (3:32:39.320)
it's kind of off of, oh my God, and I've seen the stuff and I've seen stuff that I've said
David Fravor (3:32:43.560)
taken out of context on shows that I did not talk to.
Lex Fridman (3:32:48.040)
So there's all that, because you can take a clip and go, oh, it's this, it's that, you
Lex Fridman (3:32:51.200)
know?
Lex Fridman (3:32:52.200)
And if I know about stuff like it, you can't technically use my likeness unless I tell
David Fravor (3:32:55.200)
you you can.
Lex Fridman (3:32:56.420)
So if I haven't signed something you can't do, there was a guy who put something out,
David Fravor (3:32:59.080)
you know, I was in it and I told him, you can take it down and you can talk to lawyers
Lex Fridman (3:33:01.560)
because I'm not supporting you.
Lex Fridman (3:33:03.680)
So they use it to tell some kind of narrative that's not connected to reality.
Lex Fridman (3:33:07.600)
Because let's face it, if you're making TV shows, there's two reasons to do it.
David Fravor (3:33:10.920)
One, you want to get word out, or two, you want to make money, or three, both.
Lex Fridman (3:33:15.160)
And so usually it's, I would say the make money is probably the biggest thing to put
David Fravor (3:33:19.600)
a TV show out.
Lex Fridman (3:33:20.600)
And the mission of the To The Stars Academy is to not do that, is to try to get some...
David Fravor (3:33:27.240)
When they started and I talked to them, because I've talked to Tom and I've talked to Lou
Lex Fridman (3:33:31.720)
and those are the two main players, it was to basically demystify the fact and get rid
David Fravor (3:33:38.200)
of the stigma that's tied to UFOs, and let's look at it from a science base and then use
Lex Fridman (3:33:43.220)
TV to get the word out on the progress.
Lex Fridman (3:33:45.800)
And they've done some pretty cool things.
David Fravor (3:33:47.000)
I mean, you know, the Italian government gave them all kinds of files that had been property
David Fravor (3:33:52.720)
of their government.
Lex Fridman (3:33:53.720)
They got a bunch from...
David Fravor (3:33:54.720)
It might have been Argentina gave them all kinds of stuff, like, here's all our records,
Lex Fridman (3:33:59.340)
what can you do with it?
David Fravor (3:34:00.340)
To try and now pull from country based to a more global based research, which is what
David Fravor (3:34:04.800)
you were talking about, and then using independent scientists that are not tied to a government.
David Fravor (3:34:09.800)
I mean, any government, but just using independent research agencies to start looking at some
David Fravor (3:34:13.840)
of the metallurgy, because you go, oh, I found this, we had this piece of metal, what is
Lex Fridman (3:34:16.960)
it?
Lex Fridman (3:34:17.960)
And some of the stuff has been explained.
David Fravor (3:34:18.960)
They've got some objects, artifacts that have not been explained.
Lex Fridman (3:34:22.000)
And that's slowly coming out, you know, and I think...
Lex Fridman (3:34:24.600)
And your hope is the US government will release some more things?
David Fravor (3:34:27.760)
The US government came out a month ago and said, we have material that we cannot explain
David Fravor (3:34:33.480)
the origin.
Lex Fridman (3:34:35.220)
They have said that.
David Fravor (3:34:36.220)
They just haven't released the records from the Roswell thing, which I keep joking about.
Lex Fridman (3:34:39.520)
I'm like, come on, it's 70 some years old.
David Fravor (3:34:41.320)
I mean, like, let it out.
David Fravor (3:34:43.440)
I think you put it beautifully that in this time, that will be a heck of an inspiring,
David Fravor (3:34:49.640)
hopeful thing to see.
Lex Fridman (3:34:50.640)
Like people don't...
David Fravor (3:34:52.040)
Just to distract them.
Lex Fridman (3:34:53.040)
Right?
David Fravor (3:34:54.040)
Yeah, the division is, I mean, nothing will unite us humans, descendants of chimps.
Lex Fridman (3:35:02.360)
Like the idea that there's life out there.
David Fravor (3:35:05.800)
It would literally change.
David Fravor (3:35:06.800)
I said this a while ago, I think it was the London Sun Times had called me and I said,
David Fravor (3:35:10.640)
you know, personally, I think this is a global issue.
Lex Fridman (3:35:12.480)
It's not.
David Fravor (3:35:13.480)
If there is stuff coming down, which we're pretty sure there is, there's enough stuff
Lex Fridman (3:35:16.400)
that we can't explain.
David Fravor (3:35:18.520)
If there is stuff coming down, then this is not a country based thing and it's not about
David Fravor (3:35:21.720)
technology and it's not about who's going to win the next war because you don't know
Lex Fridman (3:35:25.360)
what they're doing.
Lex Fridman (3:35:27.000)
So you got really a couple of theories.
David Fravor (3:35:29.360)
One, you've got ET or close encounters and the other extreme is you've got Independence
Lex Fridman (3:35:35.400)
Day.
David Fravor (3:35:36.660)
Are you going to prepare and bet on ET and close encounters or do you actually try and
Lex Fridman (3:35:41.880)
do stuff in case it is Independence Day, you actually have a game plan.
Lex Fridman (3:35:45.560)
And when you get into Independence Day, that scenario, you know, and I don't like going
Lex Fridman (3:35:49.680)
too much into sci fi, but let's just say in theory that that becomes a reality.
David Fravor (3:35:54.820)
It's not a US, Russia, China, England, France, Spain, name any country in any continent.
David Fravor (3:36:02.980)
It becomes a global issue and the only way you can deny it, it's just like Americans.
David Fravor (3:36:07.560)
We all, you know, we're divided.
Lex Fridman (3:36:10.760)
We spend that way forever.
Lex Fridman (3:36:11.920)
So if you think we won't get through this, we'll get through it because we've had times
Lex Fridman (3:36:14.280)
just like this before.
David Fravor (3:36:16.080)
Until Nazi Germany pops up.
Lex Fridman (3:36:17.400)
But Nazi Germany pops up or someone flies two airplanes into the World Trade Center
Lex Fridman (3:36:20.980)
and then all of a sudden we're all like united.
Lex Fridman (3:36:22.720)
We all also have very, very short memories.
David Fravor (3:36:25.640)
Yes, we do.
Lex Fridman (3:36:27.040)
Exactly.
David Fravor (3:36:28.040)
It's when you look and go, well, we can do this and you go, no, no, if you think that
David Fravor (3:36:34.760)
everyone on the planet is good, you need to stop taking the drugs that you're taking.
David Fravor (3:36:41.560)
You know, we said this, there were people during the rise of Hitler, no, no, it's it's
Lex Fridman (3:36:46.080)
OK.
Lex Fridman (3:36:47.080)
And no, no, it's OK.
Lex Fridman (3:36:48.080)
We're not going to do.
David Fravor (3:36:49.080)
We're not going to stop.
Lex Fridman (3:36:50.080)
No, no, it's OK.
David Fravor (3:36:51.080)
No, no, it's OK.
Lex Fridman (3:36:52.080)
No, no, it's OK.
David Fravor (3:36:53.080)
The only thing that stopped Hitler was his ego by going into Russia.
David Fravor (3:36:59.240)
If he just stuck with the pact with Stalin and not went to the east and had to fight
Lex Fridman (3:37:03.960)
and it was really the Russian winner that crushed him and he would have put all his
David Fravor (3:37:07.800)
high troops to the other side, there would have been a totally different outcome.
David Fravor (3:37:12.600)
The man in the iron, the man in the high tower, whatever, it's a Netflix show where Nazi actually
Lex Fridman (3:37:16.840)
wins it.
Lex Fridman (3:37:17.840)
And you look, you know, we didn't know everything that was going on, especially the atrocities
Lex Fridman (3:37:22.480)
with the concentration camps and what he was doing to the Jews.
David Fravor (3:37:26.160)
I mean, it's you look at that going, if you really want to see evil and then there's the
David Fravor (3:37:29.600)
whole side of what Stalin did because he actually exterminated more people than Hitler did.
Lex Fridman (3:37:33.960)
But that never gets the press.
Lex Fridman (3:37:36.040)
And the thing is, we forget this, we forget this history in our conflicts today.
David Fravor (3:37:41.840)
We forget that there is the nature of evil.
Lex Fridman (3:37:44.160)
We forget that there's real evil in the world.
Lex Fridman (3:37:47.400)
And the thing to fight that evil is to be united, to be both.
David Fravor (3:37:53.200)
It's like this interesting line, like you talked about Joe Rogan, of being both like
David Fravor (3:37:59.160)
kind to each other, compassionate, empathetic, but also being like strong and a bad motherfucker
David Fravor (3:38:08.000)
when you need to, to make sure that you, that like there's a balance between kindness and
David Fravor (3:38:14.360)
force.
David Fravor (3:38:15.360)
You use force when force is necessary, but you don't have to walk around like Billy
David Fravor (3:38:19.760)
Badass all the time.
David Fravor (3:38:20.760)
I mean, some of the toughest people that I grew up with that literally could kick the
David Fravor (3:38:24.500)
shit out of whoever came near them, they never got in fights because one, even people that
Lex Fridman (3:38:28.760)
didn't know them, because they were actually nice guys.
David Fravor (3:38:31.840)
You know, they were just good dudes.
Lex Fridman (3:38:34.480)
But you know, if you cross them, like I had a friend of mine, he's a nationally ranked
David Fravor (3:38:39.480)
wrestler.
Lex Fridman (3:38:40.480)
He went to Naval Academy with me, he's a very, very good friend of mine.
Lex Fridman (3:38:45.080)
And he is, when you meet him and he wrestled at 190 pounds and he did not lose a match
Lex Fridman (3:38:51.760)
his senior year until he went to nationals, he just had a bad day.
David Fravor (3:38:54.440)
He actually lost to a guy he had pummeled the shit out of.
Lex Fridman (3:38:57.740)
And he would cross.
David Fravor (3:38:58.740)
It was funny, we joke about it even with him, because when you meet him, he's like the nicest
Lex Fridman (3:39:01.920)
like local, hey dude, you know, hey, how are you doing?
David Fravor (3:39:04.680)
He's super nice.
Lex Fridman (3:39:05.680)
And he would cross that ring on a wrestling mat.
David Fravor (3:39:08.880)
As soon as he crossed that ring, it was like a totally different person and he would go
Lex Fridman (3:39:13.220)
out there and just destroy people.
David Fravor (3:39:15.360)
I mean, physically destroy, like put a hurt on.
Lex Fridman (3:39:19.640)
And he would get done and he's like super humble and they'd raise his hand and he'd
David Fravor (3:39:24.060)
have this blank expression, they'd raise his hand and he'd walk off and as soon as he crossed
Lex Fridman (3:39:28.000)
the line, he'd look up and smile and go, hey, hi guys, how you doing?
David Fravor (3:39:31.040)
Like he literally just went and could rip someone's arms off.
Lex Fridman (3:39:33.500)
But as soon as he crossed the line, he was a totally different person.
David Fravor (3:39:35.400)
He's like, and he's that way today.
Lex Fridman (3:39:37.040)
He won't even tell you he's a wrestler.
David Fravor (3:39:40.080)
That's kind of a symbol of the best of America.
Lex Fridman (3:39:43.900)
That's what America is.
David Fravor (3:39:44.900)
Oh, he's.
Lex Fridman (3:39:45.900)
That wrestler.
David Fravor (3:39:46.900)
He's a.
David Fravor (3:39:47.900)
You cross the line, you can be hard, but once you're off the mat, you're just a kind human
David Fravor (3:39:53.900)
being.
Lex Fridman (3:39:54.900)
Yeah.
David Fravor (3:39:55.900)
I know you're super humble, saying it's better to be lucky than good, but your story is inspiring.
David Fravor (3:40:06.520)
The entire trajectory of having a dream, of accomplishing that dream, of having one hell
David Fravor (3:40:11.980)
of a career.
Lex Fridman (3:40:13.700)
What advice would you give to a young person, to a young version of yourself today that
David Fravor (3:40:20.940)
listens to this and is inspired, that wants to fly or wants to go to space and wants to
Lex Fridman (3:40:27.460)
build the rocket?
Lex Fridman (3:40:28.460)
Is there advice you could give them about life, about career, about anything?
Lex Fridman (3:40:34.020)
Yeah.
David Fravor (3:40:35.020)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:40:36.020)
First, let me start with, and you had a question on, inspirational people.
David Fravor (3:40:43.300)
My grandfather, I had mentioned him earlier, huge funeral, beer delivery guy, was delivering
David Fravor (3:40:49.940)
beer in the 60s riots where the guys in the black neighborhoods where white people didn't
David Fravor (3:40:55.300)
go.
Lex Fridman (3:40:56.340)
My grandfather's Sicilian.
David Fravor (3:40:57.340)
He was one of the first ones in his family born in the United States.
David Fravor (3:41:00.200)
My great grandmother and I had aunts and uncles that I knew growing up that actually came
David Fravor (3:41:03.180)
over on the boat.
David Fravor (3:41:06.000)
Huge, huge guy and just the nicest, friendliest, would give you the shirt off his back, obviously
David Fravor (3:41:11.780)
proven by his funeral.
David Fravor (3:41:12.780)
I'm talking at his funeral, the head of the Black Panthers was at his funeral in Toledo,
David Fravor (3:41:17.620)
Ohio.
Lex Fridman (3:41:18.620)
The mafia guys were at his funeral in Toledo, Ohio.
David Fravor (3:41:21.860)
It was literally a mix of who's who.
Lex Fridman (3:41:26.020)
He had told me once, because when you're little, you start looking.
David Fravor (3:41:29.140)
I grew up basically, I was probably middle class, lower middle class.
Lex Fridman (3:41:32.340)
My dad was a fireman.
David Fravor (3:41:33.340)
You're not rich.
Lex Fridman (3:41:34.340)
He's working for the city.
David Fravor (3:41:35.340)
Paycheck to paycheck living is how I grew up.
David Fravor (3:41:37.500)
I was talking to my grandfather one day and he said something to me, and this is literally
Lex Fridman (3:41:41.500)
how I run my life.
David Fravor (3:41:42.500)
He said, it was about money because you'd see back in the day, if you saw someone in
David Fravor (3:41:45.820)
a Mercedes, that was rare.
Lex Fridman (3:41:47.580)
They weren't everywhere.
David Fravor (3:41:48.580)
You couldn't lease a car, you actually bought a car and usually bought a car with cash.
Lex Fridman (3:41:53.900)
It was a totally different than we are now.
David Fravor (3:41:56.080)
He said, he goes, you know, David, he goes, they're no better than you and you're no better
Lex Fridman (3:42:00.340)
than anyone else.
David Fravor (3:42:01.340)
He goes, you got to remember that.
Lex Fridman (3:42:02.780)
He goes, everyone's different.
David Fravor (3:42:03.780)
He goes, treat everyone with the respect and dignity that they deserve.
David Fravor (3:42:07.660)
He goes, and if they're poor, if they're homeless, he goes, it doesn't make them a bad person.
David Fravor (3:42:13.340)
That's who they chose to be and you make choices in your life, but never ever look down on
David Fravor (3:42:17.300)
someone because there will always be someone that will look down on you and you should
David Fravor (3:42:20.820)
never ever do that.
Lex Fridman (3:42:22.300)
I kept that close to me.
David Fravor (3:42:23.300)
He was a huge influence, my mom's dad, just a big, big influence in my life and the way
Lex Fridman (3:42:29.500)
I carried myself.
David Fravor (3:42:31.900)
He was one that would say, you can be anything you want to be.
David Fravor (3:42:36.540)
He grew up dirt poor and the fact that he had bought a house and took good care of my
David Fravor (3:42:41.300)
grandmother and did stuff like that, to him, that was a success.
Lex Fridman (3:42:45.740)
To me, it was always trying to better and move on.
David Fravor (3:42:48.800)
He was the one, my parents were a big part of this too, was instilling that anything
Lex Fridman (3:42:53.820)
is possible.
David Fravor (3:42:55.020)
When I'm four years and 11 months old in 1969 and I'm watching Neil Armstrong walk on the
Lex Fridman (3:43:00.380)
moon and I'm asking my mom and she says, well, they were all military pilots.
David Fravor (3:43:04.180)
We had an Air National Guard that at the time was flying F100, so I'm dating myself.
David Fravor (3:43:09.620)
I was just fascinated with flight and I just looked at that going, that's really what I
David Fravor (3:43:12.780)
want to do.
Lex Fridman (3:43:13.780)
I never lost sight of that.
David Fravor (3:43:14.780)
There was always, I could do this or do that.
David Fravor (3:43:16.380)
When I was going to go to college before I enlisted in the Marine Corps, I was accepted
David Fravor (3:43:20.300)
into Natural Resources at Ohio State and I'm like, if I can't fly, I'll go be a forest
David Fravor (3:43:24.780)
ranger because I wanted to hang out in one of those towers in Colorado and look for
David Fravor (3:43:27.700)
fires because that's just, I like that stuff.
David Fravor (3:43:30.980)
It was that or be an oceanographer because I was fascinated with Jacques Cousteau and
David Fravor (3:43:33.900)
actually that's my degree.
David Fravor (3:43:34.900)
My undergrad degree is Jacques Cousteau, so influences are Neil Armstrong and Jacques
David Fravor (3:43:38.940)
Cousteau.
Lex Fridman (3:43:39.940)
I have an oceanography degree.
David Fravor (3:43:40.940)
I got an MBA from University of Houston, go Cougs, got to mention them.
Lex Fridman (3:43:45.740)
So you look and people go, what are you going to do with that?
Lex Fridman (3:43:48.300)
And I said, I got an oceanography degree because I got, well, I'm going to sail on the ocean,
Lex Fridman (3:43:52.220)
so at least if the ship sinks, I'll know where I'm at and that was a kind of a running joke
Lex Fridman (3:43:56.300)
and then...
Lex Fridman (3:43:57.300)
So these passions and underneath it is the belief that you can be anything you want to
David Fravor (3:44:03.860)
be.
Lex Fridman (3:44:04.860)
You can.
David Fravor (3:44:05.860)
I told my kids this, when they were young, it was tough, especially for my son.
Lex Fridman (3:44:09.540)
So when Nate was about five, six years, we knew Nate was colorblind.
David Fravor (3:44:13.540)
My wife's brothers are both colorblind.
Lex Fridman (3:44:15.460)
It's really color deprived.
David Fravor (3:44:16.460)
Color blind, you see black and white.
Lex Fridman (3:44:18.100)
He can't tell.
David Fravor (3:44:19.100)
He has issues with greens, reds, browns.
David Fravor (3:44:20.960)
It's funny if you're ever around someone like that because he'll go, what are you looking
Lex Fridman (3:44:24.140)
at?
Lex Fridman (3:44:25.140)
He goes right over there by the red thing.
Lex Fridman (3:44:26.140)
I'm like, what are you looking at?
Lex Fridman (3:44:27.140)
I go, this?
David Fravor (3:44:28.140)
He had a hat on one day.
Lex Fridman (3:44:29.140)
I go, which one are you going to get?
David Fravor (3:44:30.140)
He had a hat in his hand.
Lex Fridman (3:44:31.140)
It was green.
David Fravor (3:44:32.140)
He goes, I'm going to get the green one.
Lex Fridman (3:44:33.140)
I go, oh, this one right here.
David Fravor (3:44:34.140)
He goes, no, the one on my head.
Lex Fridman (3:44:35.140)
I go, Nate, that one's brown.
David Fravor (3:44:36.140)
He's like, leave me alone, dad.
Lex Fridman (3:44:37.140)
He got the brown hat because to him it looked great.
Lex Fridman (3:44:40.340)
So he couldn't fly.
Lex Fridman (3:44:41.660)
He came to me and said, I go, what do you want to do, Nate?
Lex Fridman (3:44:43.300)
You're talking to your kids and what do you want to do?
Lex Fridman (3:44:44.740)
He goes, I want to be a pilot.
David Fravor (3:44:45.740)
Now I got to tell him because he's looking at me because I'm a pilot, you can't be a
Lex Fridman (3:44:50.020)
pilot.
David Fravor (3:44:51.020)
I go, why can't I be a pilot, I said, because you got eye issues, so you got to redirect.
David Fravor (3:44:57.140)
The other one was because I stopped flying when I was 42 years old and it was my childhood
David Fravor (3:45:02.060)
dream.
Lex Fridman (3:45:03.060)
So it's like a pro athlete.
David Fravor (3:45:04.060)
I know exactly what it feels like when Brett Favre has to walk away from the NFL when you
Lex Fridman (3:45:08.620)
still can do it.
David Fravor (3:45:09.620)
Good choice of quarterback, by the way, the greatest of all time, but whatever.
Lex Fridman (3:45:12.940)
So you do and you look at it and you go, I understand what those guys feel like when
David Fravor (3:45:17.740)
you have to walk away from something that you love and you think you can still do it.
Lex Fridman (3:45:22.740)
So I told them, I said, look, I was talking to both of my kids and I said, you know, find
David Fravor (3:45:27.180)
something that you want to do, that you love to do and that you can do your whole life.
Lex Fridman (3:45:34.100)
And you should be able to do good things for other people.
David Fravor (3:45:37.460)
You want to be able to help other people.
Lex Fridman (3:45:39.900)
That's what I said.
Lex Fridman (3:45:40.900)
So both of my kids and there's no one in my family, both of my children, one of them
Lex Fridman (3:45:45.500)
is, my daughter is a doctor doing a residency in internal medicine right now.
Lex Fridman (3:45:49.920)
And my son is in his third year and they're both going to be doctors.
Lex Fridman (3:45:53.840)
And until I look at it as, you know, people go, oh, you got two doctors.
David Fravor (3:45:56.660)
I don't care.
David Fravor (3:45:57.660)
I told my kids, if you want to be a garbage man or you want to dig ditches, I don't care.
David Fravor (3:46:01.420)
Just be, be the best ditch digger that you can be, I said, and be happy doing it.
David Fravor (3:46:06.020)
Because what you also find is that we are in this big pursuit of money, money, money,
David Fravor (3:46:09.660)
money, money, money, money.
Lex Fridman (3:46:10.940)
That's what makes the world go round.
Lex Fridman (3:46:11.940)
But what you realize, and I'll go back to my grandfather who didn't have a lot of money
Lex Fridman (3:46:16.100)
and he was probably one of the most happy people on life.
Lex Fridman (3:46:18.340)
And unfortunately he died at, he died at 65.
David Fravor (3:46:20.140)
He had a massive heart attack because he didn't tell that he, he kind of knew it was happening
Lex Fridman (3:46:24.540)
and he just made the choice to do it and it was devastating to the entire family.
Lex Fridman (3:46:30.140)
But he didn't, he didn't have a lot of money.
Lex Fridman (3:46:32.280)
But I'll tell you what, I know a lot of rich people who have funerals and there's nobody
Lex Fridman (3:46:35.020)
at them.
David Fravor (3:46:36.020)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:46:37.020)
And my grandfather, who's a beer delivery guy had, I, I, it literally, it was like three
David Fravor (3:46:41.480)
miles long.
Lex Fridman (3:46:42.480)
The Pope.
David Fravor (3:46:43.480)
It was crazy.
Lex Fridman (3:46:44.480)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:46:45.480)
Who died?
Lex Fridman (3:46:46.480)
The Pope.
David Fravor (3:46:47.480)
That was because there was like, Hey, he's a Catholic.
Lex Fridman (3:46:48.480)
He's just, you know, Italian.
Lex Fridman (3:46:49.480)
He goes, you know, who died?
Lex Fridman (3:46:50.480)
The Pope.
Lex Fridman (3:46:51.480)
And I go, no, that was my grandfather.
Lex Fridman (3:46:52.480)
And then the next funeral I went to was my aunt, his sister.
Lex Fridman (3:46:53.480)
And it was like, you know, 30 people.
Lex Fridman (3:46:54.540)
And I looked at my mother and I said, where's everybody at?
David Fravor (3:46:57.380)
She goes, Oh, no, this is normal.
Lex Fridman (3:47:00.480)
This is what a normal funeral looks like.
Lex Fridman (3:47:02.700)
So it's, you know, for young kids, bottom line, one, be nice.
Lex Fridman (3:47:08.060)
Kindness will get you.
David Fravor (3:47:09.060)
I'm a big believer in karma.
Lex Fridman (3:47:10.700)
Kindness will get you a long way in the world.
David Fravor (3:47:13.000)
You know, it's easy.
Lex Fridman (3:47:14.000)
It's, it's, it's easy to be nice.
David Fravor (3:47:15.720)
It doesn't cost you anything.
Lex Fridman (3:47:17.580)
I said, you know, and get rid of the hate.
Lex Fridman (3:47:19.860)
And number two is follow your dreams because everyone is capable of everything.
Lex Fridman (3:47:23.700)
And there's a, there's a self realism, like, you know, if you really have trouble with
David Fravor (3:47:27.460)
math, getting a PhD in applied math is probably not something you're going to be able to do,
Lex Fridman (3:47:32.200)
but understand yourself, what your own capabilities are.
Lex Fridman (3:47:35.340)
And you know, inside your heart, don't let anyone ever tell you what you can and can't
Lex Fridman (3:47:38.220)
do.
David Fravor (3:47:39.220)
Just look at yourself and go for it and, and, and you can do anything.
Lex Fridman (3:47:43.860)
It's just, it's, it's a great, the world's incredible.
David Fravor (3:47:47.220)
It really is.
Lex Fridman (3:47:48.220)
Let me ask the last big, ridiculous question.
Lex Fridman (3:47:52.540)
So you've lived much of your life, your career is kind of at the edge of life and death.
Lex Fridman (3:47:59.420)
So let me ask kind of several different ways, the same kind of question.
Lex Fridman (3:48:06.180)
One, do you, have you pondered your mortality, the finiteness of it?
Lex Fridman (3:48:12.860)
And the bigger question to ask, even in the context of your, uh, tic tac encounter is,
Lex Fridman (3:48:20.540)
uh, what do you think is the meaning of this, uh, thing we got going on here?
Lex Fridman (3:48:25.700)
The meaning of life, human life in this sense.
Lex Fridman (3:48:31.020)
So let me start with, have I pondered my own mortality?
Lex Fridman (3:48:33.940)
Yes.
David Fravor (3:48:34.940)
Very often.
Lex Fridman (3:48:36.900)
And I don't get into my religious beliefs or what I am, but I will tell you that I do
David Fravor (3:48:40.960)
believe in God.
Lex Fridman (3:48:42.560)
I've just seen too many things in the world that I can't explain.
Lex Fridman (3:48:46.660)
And some people will explain it by subconscious, so I'll give you a story and this kind of
Lex Fridman (3:48:49.820)
puts in the thing of, do I fear death?
Lex Fridman (3:48:52.860)
So I had a good friend of mine that I used to fly with, we were stationed in Japan together
Lex Fridman (3:48:55.960)
and Japan had this incinerator that put all kinds of dioxins, so there's a real high cancer
David Fravor (3:49:01.380)
rate for those that served on the base in Atsugi, Japan.
David Fravor (3:49:07.740)
Him and his wife had one son, um, and their son passed away just before his 18th birthday
David Fravor (3:49:12.820)
of cancer.
Lex Fridman (3:49:14.820)
And I was hanging out with, I'll call him John, and I was hanging out with John, we
David Fravor (3:49:19.900)
were in oil and gas, he had come to the same company and we were doing an event together
Lex Fridman (3:49:24.300)
and he was opening up to me because we were actually the demo pilots.
David Fravor (3:49:27.140)
We do the demonstration for air shows and stuff and him and I were sitting there talking
Lex Fridman (3:49:32.460)
and he was giving me the whole story and how it really changed his look on life that we're
David Fravor (3:49:39.620)
only here for a finite time and that we're all going to die.
David Fravor (3:49:42.700)
Well, unfortunately, after all that, when it was really going, him and his wife had
David Fravor (3:49:46.300)
moved to a location that would fit their, you know, close to the water where they could
David Fravor (3:49:50.880)
do stuff and I won't say where, and he was doing what he loved to do and he got diagnosed
David Fravor (3:49:56.500)
with throat cancer.
Lex Fridman (3:50:00.540)
And I was talking to him, uh, it was probably about maybe two months before he died, um,
Lex Fridman (3:50:08.460)
and I said, dude, hey, you're sad, I mean, this is your friend and I'm kind of really
David Fravor (3:50:13.980)
bummed out and this is the guy, this is a guy that's dying of cancer and here's what
David Fravor (3:50:18.580)
he tells me.
Lex Fridman (3:50:19.580)
He says, Dave, dude, we're all going to die.
David Fravor (3:50:23.500)
He goes, but I have to look at it, I have to make the best of the time that I have.
Lex Fridman (3:50:28.540)
And I said, I understand that.
Lex Fridman (3:50:30.460)
And he goes, with the exception of not being with my wife, who he loved dearly, he goes,
Lex Fridman (3:50:37.860)
I'm okay with dying.
David Fravor (3:50:39.420)
I've had a really good life and, um, about, uh, cause actually the original announcement
David Fravor (3:50:47.980)
when he, when he finally passed away, a buddy of mine called me cause I don't do Facebook
Lex Fridman (3:50:51.180)
and his wife had put it on Facebook that he had passed and about the day before he died,
David Fravor (3:50:57.560)
for some reason I was thinking about him and I had a dream or I think it was a dream or
David Fravor (3:51:03.900)
an altered reality.
David Fravor (3:51:04.900)
You can get into whatever, uh, but he was there, it was just him and I, and I was really
David Fravor (3:51:11.700)
sad in the dream.
Lex Fridman (3:51:13.420)
I was actually crying and he was there and he was actually in his uniform.
David Fravor (3:51:16.220)
He was in his whites and uh, cause he was a Navy and we were just talking and he looked
Lex Fridman (3:51:20.700)
at me and he said, and this isn't my dream.
David Fravor (3:51:22.700)
He's like, Dave, it's all going to be okay.
Lex Fridman (3:51:25.740)
And this is, this is like, and this is a vivid conversation I have.
David Fravor (3:51:28.700)
There's people are gonna think I'm weird about this, but, um, but I, you know, I know what
David Fravor (3:51:32.660)
my dream was and you know, maybe it's my subconscious creating the dream, but in reality to me,
David Fravor (3:51:37.620)
this was real, that it was put there for a reason.
Lex Fridman (3:51:40.780)
He's and he basically explained everything he's, it's okay.
David Fravor (3:51:43.700)
I'm going to be fine.
Lex Fridman (3:51:45.220)
My wife is fine.
David Fravor (3:51:46.220)
He goes, this is, this is what's meant to be, you know, but you know, and the bottom
Lex Fridman (3:51:50.320)
line was make use of every day that you have because you don't know.
Lex Fridman (3:51:54.700)
And literally two days later, I find out that he passed.
Lex Fridman (3:51:57.820)
Um, so, but ultimately he accepted the finiteness of it.
David Fravor (3:52:04.140)
He did.
David Fravor (3:52:05.140)
Well, you have to, and it's like, I talk about, you know, money and job position and this
Lex Fridman (3:52:08.620)
and that, and I said, you can get in any, you know, you can go to a company.
David Fravor (3:52:11.660)
Just remember when you want to be a VP of a company, you sell your soul to the company.
David Fravor (3:52:15.060)
You have to, I said, if you look, I joke with people at work and I said, I said, you know,
David Fravor (3:52:20.060)
when you ever think that you're important or this guy has that, I said, when you're
David Fravor (3:52:22.660)
sitting on 93 or 95, one 28 and you're sitting in traffic and we're stopped, which doesn't
Lex Fridman (3:52:27.420)
happen right now because of COVID, but normally it's stopped.
David Fravor (3:52:29.660)
It's bumper to bumper and you're sitting here like I was coming down here by the gas tank.
David Fravor (3:52:33.660)
Um, when you're sitting there, look left and look right, you know, and there can be a Lamborghini
David Fravor (3:52:38.800)
or an S five 50 Mercedes.
Lex Fridman (3:52:40.760)
And on the other side, there could be some piece of crap car.
David Fravor (3:52:44.760)
We're all sitting on the same freeway at the same time, trying to do the same thing, which
David Fravor (3:52:48.840)
is just get home so we can be with our family because the most important thing that we have,
David Fravor (3:52:54.380)
it ain't money.
Lex Fridman (3:52:55.380)
It ain't our job.
David Fravor (3:52:56.480)
It's not our position.
David Fravor (3:52:57.480)
I go, cause when it's all said and done, you could be, you know, you can be with the exception
David Fravor (3:53:02.620)
of the presidents of the United States.
Lex Fridman (3:53:04.300)
I mean, name the vice presidents.
David Fravor (3:53:07.260)
Most people can't and eventually they're going to die or eventually you're going to see a
David Fravor (3:53:11.400)
statue of a guy from the 17 hundreds in the Boston area and you're going to go, I don't
David Fravor (3:53:15.180)
even know who that guy was.
Lex Fridman (3:53:17.140)
Did he impact my life?
David Fravor (3:53:18.180)
He probably did, but eventually people forget you realize what's important now and the one
David Fravor (3:53:23.520)
thing that you have is your family and your close friends and that's, that's it.
David Fravor (3:53:29.580)
You can take all the money or everything else.
David Fravor (3:53:31.360)
If you're down on your luck, you know, who is going to be, we, I just joke, who are your
Lex Fridman (3:53:34.740)
true friends?
Lex Fridman (3:53:36.220)
It's the person.
David Fravor (3:53:37.220)
Well, there's, there's a once that I won't say, but you know, Hey, you're broke down
David Fravor (3:53:39.900)
on a road in the middle of nowhere and it's three oclock in the morning, who you going
David Fravor (3:53:43.380)
to call is going to get in their car without complaining and come and get you.
Lex Fridman (3:53:47.000)
And that's life.
David Fravor (3:53:48.040)
That is life.
Lex Fridman (3:53:49.040)
The people you love.
David Fravor (3:53:50.900)
It's it's, it's the people you truly care about.
Lex Fridman (3:53:53.420)
And contrary to, I have, you know, Oh my God, I got 6,000 Facebook friends.
David Fravor (3:53:57.980)
You got about that many real friends that you can count on and that's it.
Lex Fridman (3:54:02.060)
Everything else doesn't matter.
David Fravor (3:54:03.060)
Oh, it doesn't matter.
Lex Fridman (3:54:04.060)
It doesn't mean you don't be nice.
David Fravor (3:54:05.060)
I mean, I have, there's acquaintance friends that I'll do anything for and they can come
David Fravor (3:54:08.040)
to my house and stuff, but then there's the people that, you know, you know, like my cousins
David Fravor (3:54:12.180)
who are like my brothers that, you know, at a moment's notice, you know, when, when my
David Fravor (3:54:19.000)
uncle passed away at a young age, you know, who lived literally right down the street
David Fravor (3:54:23.200)
from me and my cousin Chad and I got two boys, there's 14 of us, but there's only two boys.
David Fravor (3:54:28.580)
There's three of us together and we all grew up in the same neighborhood, same schools,
David Fravor (3:54:32.140)
play football together, all that.
David Fravor (3:54:33.940)
I said, if one of those, if rare Chad ever needs me, if something happens like when my
David Fravor (3:54:38.080)
uncle died, it wasn't a, it wasn't an issue if I'm coming home.
David Fravor (3:54:41.580)
Because I'm booking the ticket and I don't give a shit what it costs because I will be
David Fravor (3:54:44.580)
there to be there with you.
Lex Fridman (3:54:47.660)
And then those two guys and my college roommate is another one that I'm very, very close with,
David Fravor (3:54:54.420)
you know, you know, if there's, there's, I have a handful of people that, you know, I
Lex Fridman (3:54:59.460)
will drop literally everything.
David Fravor (3:55:01.340)
Even if my wife would be pissed at me at times, she's like, seriously, I got to do it.
Lex Fridman (3:55:05.980)
And now she knows, and it's the same thing with her.
David Fravor (3:55:08.380)
I mean, she knows that there are certain people in her life that if they really need her and
Lex Fridman (3:55:12.140)
she has to go, she would go and I would let her go.
Lex Fridman (3:55:16.540)
So given all that, I'm honored that you would come here and talk to me and take the time.
Lex Fridman (3:55:24.220)
Dave was one of the best conversations I've ever had.
David Fravor (3:55:26.580)
Thank you so much.
Lex Fridman (3:55:27.580)
It's a pretty long one.
David Fravor (3:55:28.580)
It's probably sets the record for the longest one.
Lex Fridman (3:55:31.420)
So I, I mean, I'm, I'm a loss of words.
David Fravor (3:55:35.660)
One of my favorite conversations.
Lex Fridman (3:55:36.660)
Thank you so much for talking to me, Dave.
David Fravor (3:55:38.660)
You're welcome.
Lex Fridman (3:55:40.220)
Thanks for listening to this conversation with David Fravor.
Lex Fridman (3:55:42.820)
And thank you to our sponsors, Athletic Greens, ExpressVPN, and BetterHelp.
David Fravor (3:55:48.120)
Please check out the sponsors in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast.
David Fravor (3:55:53.100)
If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it with five stars and app a podcast,
David Fravor (3:55:58.260)
follow on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman.
Lex Fridman (3:56:03.980)
And now let me leave you with some words from Carl Sagan, somewhere, something incredible
Lex Fridman (3:56:10.180)
is waiting to be known.
David Fravor (3:56:12.900)
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
Lex Fridman (40:02.320)
inside the airplane, you're just like, wow, I cannot believe it just did that.
David Fravor (40:05.760)
Like it'll flop ends, which defies most logic, and I guess in a way you could probably program
David Fravor (40:11.880)
it, but I still think when you get to the edges that may or may not give you an advantage,
David Fravor (40:18.320)
there are things that a human will do that AI won't.
Lex Fridman (40:23.200)
And I don't think we've got to the point, because how do you map illogical solutions?
David Fravor (40:29.400)
Most AI is logical.
Lex Fridman (40:30.600)
It's based on some type of premise when you write the algorithm to control it.
David Fravor (40:36.120)
There's bounds.
David Fravor (40:37.120)
Yeah, there's this giant mess, like you said, the difference between the simulator and real
David Fravor (40:41.960)
life also gets at that somehow.
David Fravor (40:44.080)
That there is somehow the fear of death, all of that beautiful mess comes into play.
David Fravor (40:51.720)
Is there a comment you can make on commercial flight, like with Sully landing that plane
Lex Fridman (40:59.120)
famously versus the simulator, all of those discussions, is there some?
David Fravor (41:04.800)
Well, it's very similar to what I was talking about earlier with the A6.
Lex Fridman (41:08.040)
So one is when you're flying with a crew, there's standardization.
Lex Fridman (41:13.240)
So you got to remember when Sully flew, when his first officer, that's the co pilot, showed
David Fravor (41:17.120)
up the first time they'd met, and this happens all the time in the commercial world.
David Fravor (41:21.560)
There's six, 7,000 pilots at United Airlines, your chance of flying with the same guy all
Lex Fridman (41:25.960)
the time is slim and none.
David Fravor (41:26.960)
Where in the Navy, we were crewed.
Lex Fridman (41:29.280)
So I had a primary and a secondary whizzo that flew with me.
Lex Fridman (41:33.960)
For months?
Lex Fridman (41:34.960)
Oh yeah, for like all of the deployment.
David Fravor (41:37.880)
Because you want to get to know, trust and all of those things.
Lex Fridman (41:42.000)
It increases the capability of the airplane.
David Fravor (41:43.880)
It's not to say we can't swap out, but for true effectiveness, especially in very complex
David Fravor (41:48.360)
missions like a forward air controller, we're in the air actually controlling ground assets
Lex Fridman (41:53.480)
and supporting ground troops.
David Fravor (41:57.040)
If you're in a high threat area, which is crazy busy, you have to be melded when you
David Fravor (42:02.480)
do that.
David Fravor (42:03.480)
You have to have trained to do that job, otherwise you're going to be ineffective.
Lex Fridman (42:07.000)
So when you get to the commercial world, and I've got tons of friends that fly commercial,
Lex Fridman (42:13.360)
there is a standardization.
David Fravor (42:15.120)
Like we know that at this point, I'm going to put this switch, you're going to do that.
Lex Fridman (42:18.440)
And everyone, they know their roles.
David Fravor (42:20.520)
Captain's going to do this, first officer's going to do this.
Lex Fridman (42:23.060)
And they know that when the emergency breaks out, so in Sully's case, when they take the
David Fravor (42:26.720)
birds and they know they've got a problem, and if you've listened to the cockpit recordings
David Fravor (42:30.600)
of the two of them talking, you got to remember, they're talking to each other when you hear
David Fravor (42:35.640)
the full tapes, but they're also talking to the air traffic controllers in the New York
Lex Fridman (42:39.120)
area.
Lex Fridman (42:40.560)
And it's like, we got a bird strike and the first officer already knows, hey, silence
Lex Fridman (42:44.280)
the alarm.
David Fravor (42:45.280)
They silence the alarm.
David Fravor (42:46.280)
The first officer is pulling out the book, he's going through the procedures while Sully's
David Fravor (42:49.240)
actually flying the airplane, knowing that they've lost their motors.
Lex Fridman (42:52.000)
And you got to think his decision process, like they're trying to get him to go into
David Fravor (42:54.920)
an airport in New Jersey, and he realizes, not happening, we're going to put this thing.
Lex Fridman (42:59.120)
And he made a decision soon enough so that he could prepare everyone on the airplane
David Fravor (43:03.120)
that he was going to put this thing in the Hudson River.
Lex Fridman (43:05.560)
And he did it flawlessly.
David Fravor (43:06.560)
I mean, every single person walked away from that wreck.
David Fravor (43:10.280)
The only thing that didn't survive was the airplane, and it got fished out of the Hudson.
Lex Fridman (43:14.960)
What is it about those human decisions you had to make?
David Fravor (43:17.400)
Is that something you put into words or is that just deep down some instinct that you
Lex Fridman (43:22.560)
develop as a pilot over time?
Lex Fridman (43:25.000)
When you train, and aviation is a self cleaning oven.
Lex Fridman (43:28.660)
So if you make bad decisions, and the list is long and distinguished of those who have
Lex Fridman (43:33.720)
died by making bad decisions.
Lex Fridman (43:36.720)
So when you look at what he did or the way we train, because the commercial industry
Lex Fridman (43:41.480)
and the Navy and the Air Force, for all that, we have what's called, we have emergency procedures
David Fravor (43:47.740)
that we have to know.
Lex Fridman (43:48.740)
Like engines on fire, the first three steps, you just have to know what they are, right?
Lex Fridman (43:52.660)
So they know.
David Fravor (43:53.660)
The airline, same type, they go, hey, I know this is, they pull the book out because the
David Fravor (43:57.840)
airplanes are designed, they're built to have some time.
Lex Fridman (44:00.880)
But there's a point where you have to make a decision and you can't second guess it.
Lex Fridman (44:03.760)
So when he decided I'm putting this in the Hudson River, he couldn't all of a sudden
Lex Fridman (44:07.440)
halfway through it go, well, maybe I can get over to that airport.
David Fravor (44:10.920)
He looked, he made a quick assessment.
David Fravor (44:12.840)
This is that 80% solution where you go, these are not, it's like a multiple choice test
David Fravor (44:18.280)
when you go, oh my God, I don't really know the answer, but I know A and D are wrong,
Lex Fridman (44:22.320)
gone.
Lex Fridman (44:23.320)
So the Jersey airport and going back to LaGuardia, gone.
Lex Fridman (44:26.720)
So what's my next option?
David Fravor (44:28.160)
Well, the Hudson River's there and that's probably looking pretty good.
Lex Fridman (44:31.520)
Or what is my other one?
Lex Fridman (44:33.060)
Can I get a restart on the motors?
Lex Fridman (44:34.800)
And then if I can get a restart, now can I take it someplace else?
David Fravor (44:38.300)
He had to make really, really fast decisions.
Lex Fridman (44:40.960)
And then once they, as they go, that 80% solution, you realize, all right, I'm going into the
David Fravor (44:44.880)
Hudson, there's the 80%, get the book out.
Lex Fridman (44:47.080)
Let's see if we can get an air start.
David Fravor (44:48.080)
Because if you listen to the tapes, they're trying to get it air started.
David Fravor (44:50.340)
The closer he gets to the water, the more he's going, I'm ditching the airplane.
Lex Fridman (44:55.180)
So the original decision to, this is my best option right now.
Lex Fridman (44:59.600)
This is where I'm going.
Lex Fridman (45:01.240)
And you start eliminating anything that could possibly change the events, which they tried
Lex Fridman (45:05.700)
to do.
Lex Fridman (45:06.920)
And then he gets to that last minute, he says, we're going in the water.
Lex Fridman (45:09.560)
They changed the plan.
David Fravor (45:10.600)
They secure the airplane.
Lex Fridman (45:11.600)
They do exactly what they're doing.
Lex Fridman (45:12.600)
And he does that basically flawless landing on the Hudson.
Lex Fridman (45:15.280)
But you got to remember, it's every six months for commercial, they go back and they do research
David Fravor (45:22.160)
in the airplane in the simulator.
Lex Fridman (45:23.960)
Where they train to the airplane being broken.
David Fravor (45:27.180)
You just lost a motor.
Lex Fridman (45:28.440)
You just lost another motor.
Lex Fridman (45:30.120)
So they go through this extensive training and all these, we used to refer to it in the
Lex Fridman (45:36.000)
Navy as the pain cave where you're going to get in.
David Fravor (45:37.640)
Because you know that when you get in for your check ride in a simulator, that the airplane
Lex Fridman (45:41.680)
is going to break.
David Fravor (45:42.680)
You're going to lose hydro, and it's sometimes they're a problem like, oh, I just lost this
Lex Fridman (45:46.300)
hydraulic system, but I'm having an issue on the other motor.
David Fravor (45:48.840)
Well, if I shut down this motor and I've got a hydraulics, because there's two hydraulic
Lex Fridman (45:52.640)
systems, one on each motor.
David Fravor (45:54.040)
Well, if I've got an issue with the left motor hydraulic system and my right motor is starting
David Fravor (45:58.160)
to give me indications, do I want to shut the right motor down because that's going
David Fravor (46:01.920)
to kill my hydraulic system that's good.
Lex Fridman (46:04.300)
And now I'm flying on a good motor with a bad hydraulic system and without hydraulics,
David Fravor (46:07.560)
the airplane won't fly.
Lex Fridman (46:08.560)
So it's a really, they're challenging problems that you have to think through in real time.
Lex Fridman (46:12.640)
And of course, the weather's never good.
Lex Fridman (46:14.560)
It's always dark.
David Fravor (46:15.840)
It's always crappy.
Lex Fridman (46:16.840)
You're going to break out.
David Fravor (46:17.840)
It's just all this stuff gets compiled on top of you and it's intended to increase the
David Fravor (46:23.120)
level of stress because when things happen, like in Sully's case, we like to joke it's
David Fravor (46:28.800)
going to STEM power, you know, where the functional part of your brain shuts down and you are
Lex Fridman (46:33.000)
literally on instinct like an animal.
David Fravor (46:35.320)
Well, if you've trained so much that that is the instinctive reaction that you're going
David Fravor (46:39.120)
to have when the main part of your cognitive abilities start to shut down, you're running
David Fravor (46:45.480)
that instinct is ingrained so much into you that you know exactly what to do.
Lex Fridman (46:50.560)
And that's literally how it happens.
Lex Fridman (46:52.120)
So there's no, how do I put it?
Lex Fridman (46:54.920)
Fear of death.
David Fravor (46:56.160)
Like in Sully's case, do you think he was at all ever thinking about the fact if his
Lex Fridman (47:02.000)
decision is wrong, a lot of people are going to die?
David Fravor (47:05.520)
You know, I can't speak for him, but I would say there was so much going on at the cockpit
Lex Fridman (47:09.340)
in that time.
David Fravor (47:11.000)
His, his mindset was probably, I can do this, I'm trained, I'm going to do the procedures,
Lex Fridman (47:17.440)
I've practiced this before, I've done these things.
Lex Fridman (47:19.880)
And I, you know, I'm assuming that in his mindset, cause I never thought about when
Lex Fridman (47:23.400)
things were really bad.
David Fravor (47:24.680)
You know, if you're having problems with the airplane that, you know, that I was going
David Fravor (47:27.160)
to mort, you know, and, and plant it into the ground, it was always, you know, maybe
David Fravor (47:31.000)
it's an ego thing where you think I can do this.
Lex Fridman (47:32.920)
I mean,
Lex Fridman (47:33.920)
So you never, have you experienced fear during flight, like, I mean, one, one way we just
David Fravor (47:43.960)
offline mentioned Mike Tyson, I mean, he talked about like, as he's walking up to the ring,
David Fravor (47:52.080)
he's like, he starts out basically in fear and, yeah, worried about how things are going
Lex Fridman (47:59.800)
to go.
Lex Fridman (48:00.800)
And it's purely to put in towards his fear, but as he gets closer and closer to the ring
David Fravor (48:04.440)
is the confidence grows and grows until the ego basically takes over to where you think
David Fravor (48:11.400)
there's no way anybody could defeat me.
Lex Fridman (48:15.800)
So like, that's, that's his experience of overcoming fear.
Lex Fridman (48:18.720)
But do you, did you experience any kind of thing like that?
David Fravor (48:23.000)
Or is that, or do you just go to the part of the brain that goes to the training and
Lex Fridman (48:27.400)
then you just go to the instinctual 80% solution?
Lex Fridman (48:30.880)
I wouldn't say I was never afraid.
David Fravor (48:32.840)
I think that would be, I can't, I couldn't tell you that anyone I know that wasn't afraid
Lex Fridman (48:36.880)
at one time.
Lex Fridman (48:37.880)
And for most of us, especially Navy carrier pilots, it's just, it's, it's usually, especially
David Fravor (48:43.400)
when you're new and you got to go out and it's nighttime and there's no moon and the
David Fravor (48:47.120)
weather sucks and the deck's moving, you know, the, the ship's going up and down because
Lex Fridman (48:51.560)
it will scare the hell out of you.
Lex Fridman (48:53.840)
Can I say that?
Lex Fridman (48:54.840)
You can definitely say that, so it's about landing and take off that.
David Fravor (48:58.480)
That is, if you, even they used to wire people up, they did it during Vietnam, you know,
David Fravor (49:02.800)
guys would go fly missions, you know, when they were flying low and crazy stuff was going
David Fravor (49:06.000)
on and people were getting shot down a lot.
David Fravor (49:09.440)
The highest, the highest anxiety and heart rates were coming back to land on board an
David Fravor (49:12.960)
aircraft carrier.
Lex Fridman (49:13.960)
How hard is it to land on that?
David Fravor (49:15.360)
It seems impossible.
David Fravor (49:16.360)
Like for, for a civilian, I guess, like me, it just seems crazy that a human can do that.
David Fravor (49:23.200)
The problem with night is, and there's different degrees of night, just like day.
David Fravor (49:28.520)
I mean, there's the clear full moon night, you know, where it's like, woo, you know,
David Fravor (49:32.800)
this is not that bad, but you got to remember at night, I think everyone can associate with
David Fravor (49:37.880)
you're driving in your car and it's just a, it's, it's an overcast dark night and you're
David Fravor (49:43.000)
on a country road with no side lights.
Lex Fridman (49:46.040)
Most people have a tendency to slow down just by nature of, Oh my God.
David Fravor (49:50.200)
Because you, what you'll do is you'll out drive your headlights because it is so dark,
David Fravor (49:53.820)
you know, and you can get outside of, you get outside of the city and get up into New
David Fravor (49:56.120)
Hampshire, especially when the roads are curving, you know, and the lines probably aren't that
Lex Fridman (50:01.080)
good.
David Fravor (50:02.080)
It's, you know, now take that and multiply it by like a million because you have no depth
Lex Fridman (50:07.520)
perception.
Lex Fridman (50:09.960)
What you think is fixed, the runway is actually moving up and down and left to right.
David Fravor (50:16.080)
Yeah, oh, and when it's really bad, you can actually see it move and we have two systems,
David Fravor (50:22.040)
you know, there was a, there's an automatic system that's actually, it stabilizes with
Lex Fridman (50:27.560)
the inertials on the ship and then there's the ILS.
David Fravor (50:30.880)
Now civilian pilots will tell you that ILS is a precision approach, which gives you azimuth
Lex Fridman (50:35.340)
and glide slope.
David Fravor (50:36.340)
You know, you come down, it's like a plus.
David Fravor (50:39.080)
On the carrier, it's not, it's really just a beam that goes out and it's considered a
David Fravor (50:42.000)
non precision approach.
David Fravor (50:43.640)
It's not stabilized at all that, and I've been where you can actually watch the needle
Lex Fridman (50:47.800)
and the, and the tack and needle will move.
David Fravor (50:49.720)
There's all kinds of stuff moving cause the base that it's all sitting on is doing this
Lex Fridman (50:53.920)
and ships don't just go up and down.
Lex Fridman (50:55.680)
They, they, they do this.
Lex Fridman (50:56.760)
So the bow goes up and down in the tail, like you normally see a ship and then there's,
Lex Fridman (51:00.480)
so that's pitch and then it has roll.
Lex Fridman (51:03.120)
So it's doing this and then it has heave.
Lex Fridman (51:04.680)
So the whole boat is going up and down while it's pitching and rolling and you're gonna
David Fravor (51:08.640)
land on that.
David Fravor (51:09.640)
Um, so, and it's, I mean, I remember landing as I was with Chris, uh, Sato and, uh, Chris
Lex Fridman (51:17.000)
and I, we were off the USS ranger, which is now decommissioned.
David Fravor (51:19.680)
It's sitting, getting turned into razorblades, um, we're flying the old a six and we come
David Fravor (51:24.400)
in and it was off of San Diego and it was just ugly night cause San Diego always has
David Fravor (51:27.920)
a Marine layer that is about 1200 feet was lower than that, that night and it was pouring
David Fravor (51:31.980)
down rain.
Lex Fridman (51:32.980)
It was an El Nino year and there's thunderstorms all around.
David Fravor (51:34.720)
It was just craziest night I've ever seen out of San Diego.
Lex Fridman (51:37.840)
And I remember landing and your adrenaline is so high that you're shaking.
David Fravor (51:42.120)
I mean, you literally can't stop.
Lex Fridman (51:44.400)
And we had spun around out of the landing area and we parked, we call it the six pack.
Lex Fridman (51:48.000)
So it's right in front of the Island.
Lex Fridman (51:49.000)
So if you see an aircraft carrier with the Island and the number of the ship on it, we're
David Fravor (51:52.560)
sitting right in front of that and we're looking at the landing area.
Lex Fridman (51:54.940)
So it's like you get front row seats to the concert and, and this, this, this EA six B
David Fravor (52:00.600)
comes in, you know, ugly pass.
Lex Fridman (52:03.580)
He ends up catching a one wire, which is the first one.
David Fravor (52:05.760)
You never want to catch the first one, which means you were not really high above the back
David Fravor (52:09.000)
of the ship when you landed and it comes in and the exhaust on an EA six or an a six actually
David Fravor (52:14.800)
points kind of down and it blows and it's blowing all the standing water on the aircraft.
Lex Fridman (52:19.280)
That's how hard it's raining.
Lex Fridman (52:20.280)
And you literally could not see across.
David Fravor (52:21.640)
I mean, I could see the front of my airplane, his airplane, and then it was just white because
David Fravor (52:25.400)
of the water being blown off the deck.
Lex Fridman (52:27.600)
And I'm shaking and I, I, I'll never forget.
David Fravor (52:29.920)
I looked over at Chris and I said, Oh my God, I go, Hey dude, man, 10,000 foot runway looks
Lex Fridman (52:33.800)
really good right now.
Lex Fridman (52:35.400)
And I go, and I'm, I'm shaking my hands like this.
Lex Fridman (52:37.240)
And I said, I'm not even, this is, I'm not faking this too.
David Fravor (52:40.040)
I know that's literally, I cannot stop shaking.
David Fravor (52:42.520)
I said, that scared the Evelyn out of me, but you, but it scares you afterwards.
David Fravor (52:49.480)
You don't, during it, you're not, I'm not, you don't have time to think about that.
Lex Fridman (52:52.280)
You're doing it.
Lex Fridman (52:53.280)
You got to do is we, you know, kind of the quote from Tom Hanks and what's that?
Lex Fridman (52:58.080)
The girls baseball movie where he goes, there's no crying in baseball.
David Fravor (53:01.720)
Well, that's our joke.
Lex Fridman (53:03.160)
There's no crying in Naval aviation.
David Fravor (53:04.520)
I said, you can fly around and cry all you want at night, but you know, there's only
Lex Fridman (53:08.240)
one pilot in those airplanes and you got to land it.
Lex Fridman (53:10.320)
So you cry all you want, wipe the tears away, you know, put on your big kid pants and it's,
Lex Fridman (53:14.800)
it's time to, it's time to, you know, man up and, and land that, land the jet.
David Fravor (53:18.680)
Sorry for the romantic question, but going back to the kid that dreamed to fly, what's
Lex Fridman (53:25.200)
it like to fly an airplane?
Lex Fridman (53:28.600)
What it looks incredible to me as a human, like a descendant of ape.
Lex Fridman (53:34.360)
I sit here on land and look up at you guys.
David Fravor (53:38.080)
It seems incredible that human being can do that.
David Fravor (53:41.200)
You know what people ask, you know, I'll be sitting around with my friends and they're
Lex Fridman (53:43.520)
like, how was it?
Lex Fridman (53:44.520)
I said, it's the greatest job on the planet.
David Fravor (53:47.920)
I said, you know, it's, it's an office with a view cause you're sitting in a glass.
Lex Fridman (53:54.640)
You can do you know, it's like roller coasters.
David Fravor (53:58.160)
You go, Oh, it does all these cool stuff.
Lex Fridman (53:59.340)
So we take people flying every once in a while and it's like, Oh yeah, I like rollercoaster.
Lex Fridman (54:03.120)
So I go, no, take any rollercoaster coolest rollercoaster you've ever been on and multiply
Lex Fridman (54:07.320)
it by a thousand.
Lex Fridman (54:08.320)
And I said, it's an experience you know, to put your body under, you know, you know, the
David Fravor (54:14.560)
jets rated at seven and a half, but it'll pull up to 8.1 before it overstresses depends
David Fravor (54:18.480)
on fuel weight.
David Fravor (54:19.480)
So, I mean, you routinely get up there towards eight G's to be able to do that to your body.
David Fravor (54:25.960)
I mean, it takes a toll.
David Fravor (54:26.960)
Like I can't really turn my head real good anymore and stuff like that, but would I trade
Lex Fridman (54:31.960)
it?
Lex Fridman (54:32.960)
It's a dream and how many people get to do that?
David Fravor (54:35.080)
You know, professional, I want to be an NFL, you know, and you end up to the NFL, which
David Fravor (54:39.080)
is a very small percentage with, well, I want to fly jets and to fly, you know, at the time
David Fravor (54:45.360)
when I was flying the Super Hornets that we had in our squad and we're brand new at like
Lex Fridman (54:48.520)
literally right out of the factory, I'd come off our first Super Hornet cruise.
David Fravor (54:52.320)
We had went to the Boeing factory in St. Louis where they were building my new jets that
Lex Fridman (54:55.720)
I was going to get.
Lex Fridman (54:56.720)
And I actually signed the inside of one of the wings while they were putting it together.
Lex Fridman (55:00.080)
So I'm meeting the people that are putting the jet together that's going to get delivered
David Fravor (55:02.980)
to me in a couple of months that I'm going to fly.
Lex Fridman (55:05.600)
So just, I mean, I'll tell you what, when I left, when I decided to walk away, I told
David Fravor (55:17.700)
myself I wouldn't, I promised myself that, you know, once you get through your O5 command,
Lex Fridman (55:23.480)
your flying really starts to tag to come down.
David Fravor (55:26.840)
You know, even if you, when you're an air wing commander, which is, we call them CAG,
David Fravor (55:30.560)
carrier group commander, you're not flying as much as like the normal pilots, nor should
David Fravor (55:35.600)
you be.
David Fravor (55:36.600)
I mean, there's young people that are coming up and it's training your relief because that's
David Fravor (55:39.380)
the next generation.
Lex Fridman (55:40.380)
So like currently I have friends of mine that we serve together.
Lex Fridman (55:45.340)
Their kids are flying Super Hornets, right?
Lex Fridman (55:48.240)
So to me, that's really neat because I watched them when they were little and now, you know,
David Fravor (55:53.460)
one of them who was good friends, I won't get his last name, but Joey, who lived down
David Fravor (55:58.780)
the street from us, was a Top Gun instructor and I'm like, hey, Joey's a Top Gun.
Lex Fridman (56:04.480)
You know?
Lex Fridman (56:05.480)
And I'm like, that's cool because, you know, I went there and I knew him, he would come
David Fravor (56:08.220)
down to my house.
Lex Fridman (56:09.220)
And now to see these kids that are, because typically military breeds military, you know,
David Fravor (56:13.340)
because the kids grow up in it.
Lex Fridman (56:14.340)
I mean, and I, the only reason that my son is not doing it is he's colorblind.
Lex Fridman (56:19.000)
So it disqualifies you for being a pilot, being a SEAL because he had talked about doing
David Fravor (56:23.660)
that because he's an incredible swimmer and he likes doing that stuff and water polo player.
Lex Fridman (56:29.320)
But he's, you know, both of my kids are, well, my daughter is a doctor and my son's in his
Lex Fridman (56:34.580)
third year.
David Fravor (56:35.580)
So.
Lex Fridman (56:36.580)
But there's a, I suppose, I mean, from my perspective, a bittersweet handover of this
David Fravor (56:42.420)
incredible experience of flying to the younger generation.
Lex Fridman (56:46.180)
So you don't, you told yourself you're not going to miss it.
Lex Fridman (56:49.860)
You miss it?
Lex Fridman (56:50.860)
There are days I do.
David Fravor (56:52.020)
When I hear jets, like if I'm around a base or a jet flies over, but I have all the memory
Lex Fridman (56:57.580)
so I can look at it and go, it can't go on forever.
David Fravor (57:01.660)
You know, Tom Brady can't play football, but there's going to come a time where he has
Lex Fridman (57:05.560)
to stop.
David Fravor (57:06.560)
He seems to have done it for a long time.
Lex Fridman (57:08.500)
But you know, typically when you look at it, you go, I had the opportunity.
Lex Fridman (57:12.720)
And I think as automation moves on, especially with AI that, you know, when will, when will
Lex Fridman (57:18.460)
the last man fighter be built?
David Fravor (57:20.860)
You know, and that's that big question, you know, we just did F 35.
Lex Fridman (57:23.620)
It's over budget.
David Fravor (57:25.020)
It's seven years late.
Lex Fridman (57:26.820)
There's all kinds of issues when we try and do it.
Lex Fridman (57:29.180)
And then you look at some of the new stuff that's coming out that the air force is working
David Fravor (57:32.540)
on with smaller, cheaper, uh, a trittable platforms that you can go, Oh, we can, because
David Fravor (57:39.740)
if you don't put a man in the box or a person, because there's a lot of incredibly talented
Lex Fridman (57:44.820)
women that do this too.
Lex Fridman (57:47.220)
So I'll just say that as person.
Lex Fridman (57:48.460)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (57:49.460)
So we say man and he, we mean both men and women because offline you've told me about
Lex Fridman (57:54.040)
a lot of incredible women that flown.
Lex Fridman (57:55.620)
So I had, I had three, three female, actually four, one of them didn't fly anymore.
Lex Fridman (58:01.660)
She actually lives right around here.
David Fravor (58:03.540)
She, she's a, she ended up going into aircraft maintenance when she couldn't fly anymore.
David Fravor (58:09.060)
One of the girls who everyone knows is incredibly, she's one of the most gifted people I've ever
David Fravor (58:15.020)
met in my life.
Lex Fridman (58:16.020)
She is the vice president of Amazon air.
David Fravor (58:17.540)
You can see her on TV, her name's Sarah, uh, incredible.
Lex Fridman (58:21.140)
And then I had a page who ended up taking command.
David Fravor (58:24.860)
She got out of fighters and went into other platforms.
Lex Fridman (58:27.380)
Um, and she was a commanding officer.
Lex Fridman (58:29.380)
And then the other one is a, um, teaches leadership and she is all three of them, actually all
Lex Fridman (58:36.100)
four of the women that were direct.
David Fravor (58:38.100)
Uh, I'm hoping not forgetting, I don't think I'm forgetting someone, uh, incredibly, incredibly
Lex Fridman (58:42.820)
talented, uh, and a great addition to the ready room.
Lex Fridman (58:45.780)
So anyone that gets into the, Oh, you know, women can't do it.
Lex Fridman (58:48.280)
That's all total horse crap.
David Fravor (58:49.420)
Hey, you know, we can talk about the original integration and stuff, which was not done
Lex Fridman (58:53.380)
well by the military nor the Navy.
Lex Fridman (58:56.020)
So women can fly as good as the guys.
Lex Fridman (58:58.540)
Yeah.
David Fravor (58:59.540)
You can't tell if you pass another airplane, you can't tell if there's a man or woman in
Lex Fridman (59:02.500)
it.
David Fravor (59:03.500)
It comes down to, uh, stick and throttle the ability to, uh, uh, extrapolate where the
Lex Fridman (59:10.820)
vehicle is going to be, where the airplane would be.
David Fravor (59:12.860)
If you're fighting another one, you have to be able to think fast.
Lex Fridman (59:15.460)
Anyone has those characteristics, uh, can do it.
Lex Fridman (59:17.880)
And then I think most important besides that there has to be a desire.
Lex Fridman (59:22.140)
And I'm not saying that everyone, if you took, cause we used to track.
Lex Fridman (59:24.780)
So when I ran, we call it the rag, it's the replacement air group.
Lex Fridman (59:27.980)
It's where, so the, the super Hornet training squadron, there's two of them.
David Fravor (59:31.580)
There's one on the East coast at one Oh six.
Lex Fridman (59:33.500)
And there's one on the West coast, which is VFA one 22, one 22 is the first one.
Lex Fridman (59:37.740)
So I ended up going there and I ended up being the operations officer and training officer.
Lex Fridman (59:41.500)
Okay.
Lex Fridman (59:42.500)
So we tracked the last hundred students.
Lex Fridman (59:45.060)
Right.
Lex Fridman (59:46.060)
So everyone goes, ah, it's funny to hear students talk cause Oh, he's awesome.
David Fravor (59:51.000)
If you took the hundred, there's three at the top of the list that are just naturally
David Fravor (59:54.880)
gifted aviators.
Lex Fridman (59:56.220)
They're well, well, well above average.
David Fravor (59:58.040)
It's like the person in a math class that sits down in complex math and they just get
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