Zach Bitter: Ultramarathon Running
体育与武术音乐与艺术生物与进化技术与编程AI 与机器学习
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"did the couch to a hundred miles. So I think like for a hundred miles, the biggest difference I think"
— Zach Bitter （1:28:36.320）
"it? I don't think I've recognized it so much while I was doing it actually. It surfaced afterwards. I"
— Zach Bitter （25:31.920）
"some of this stuff. I think you just need to kind of get into a position where you just at that point,"
— Zach Bitter （16:10.240）
"time before. Then it's accountability time, right? Because then you have to look back at that and say,"
— Zach Bitter （16:48.400）
"quit a little bit before you would have to, because the stress that was required to elicit a, a growth"
— Zach Bitter （18:18.720）
🎙️ 完整对话（2066 条）
Lex Fridman (00:00.000)
The following is a conversation with Zach Bitter, ultramarathon runner and coach who held multiple
Lex Fridman (00:05.600)
world records in the 100 mile run and other ultra endurance events. He is currently training for a
Lex Fridman (00:12.240)
run across America, which for now is planned for September this year. Like many of the things Zach
Lex Fridman (00:18.720)
has done in the past, this is a big, fascinating challenge. Quick mention of our sponsors,
Lex Fridman (00:24.960)
Ladder, Valcampo, Noom, and BetterHelp. Check them out in the description to support this podcast.
Zach Bitter (00:32.080)
As a side note, let me say that Zach has been advising and coaching me on my own
Zach Bitter (00:36.480)
running journey. I want to mention that Zach sent me some running shoes from Ultra,
Zach Bitter (00:41.120)
which I think is a company that sponsors him. When I put those shoes on, I feel like Zach is
Zach Bitter (00:46.160)
watching me, and I get that extra motivation to make him proud. And by that, I mean I want to put
Zach Bitter (00:52.320)
a lot of miles on those shoes. Running is something that has always been difficult for me,
Lex Fridman (00:57.120)
but I love it because it is difficult. The hardest part is I'm left alone with my thoughts
Zach Bitter (01:03.120)
for one or two hours. Some thoughts are dark, like thinking about mortality, my own and that of
Zach Bitter (01:09.680)
others. Some are self critical, like personal weaknesses or dreams not realized. Some are simply
Zach Bitter (01:16.960)
human feelings of loneliness, personal and existential. And yet, there are the moments
Zach Bitter (01:23.760)
during a run when all that fades and I'm left empty of negative thoughts and full of appreciation
Zach Bitter (01:30.240)
for the beauty of experience, of nature, life, the whole thing. This is why I return to running.
Zach Bitter (01:37.440)
Not to get in shape, but to face myself and to run through it. That's why I'm inspired by people
Zach Bitter (01:43.280)
like Zach and by David Goggins and others like them who seek to find the limits of their body
Lex Fridman (01:50.080)
and mind. This is the Lex Friedman podcast and here is my conversation with Zach Bitter.
Zach Bitter (01:58.080)
Where does your mind go when you're running an ultra marathon? Are there a lot of positive
Zach Bitter (02:03.360)
thoughts, negative thoughts, demons, inspirational things, maybe no thoughts at all? Yeah, that's the
Zach Bitter (02:09.200)
really interesting part of the sport, I think, because you can essentially what it is when we're
Zach Bitter (02:13.680)
looking at like the hundred mile distance or anything that's like all day long is you're
Zach Bitter (02:18.160)
going to have the full range of the full spectrum of emotions of mental processes, both kind of
Zach Bitter (02:24.000)
positive, negative and in between. So it almost feels like you've lived multiple, multiple lives
Zach Bitter (02:31.120)
or full life, maybe it was way to say it in that one time period. So it's like a it's almost like
Zach Bitter (02:36.240)
assimilation of what you may experience in a long period of time in a very condensed period of time.
Lex Fridman (02:40.880)
And I think that's just a weird mental process to reflect upon. And that's what kind of draws people
Zach Bitter (02:45.520)
back to it. But I mean, it's a battle, too, because if you're looking at it from a performance
Zach Bitter (02:50.560)
standpoint versus an experience, you obviously want to minimize the negative mindset stuff.
Zach Bitter (02:55.440)
You want to try to keep those emotions and those thought processes at a low. And I think when you
Zach Bitter (03:01.920)
can keep yourself from letting those thoughts creep in, they you end up having better races
Lex Fridman (03:08.400)
and it's it can spiral in either direction. Like I notice like there's there's kind of like this
Zach Bitter (03:12.960)
scenario that occurs where in the beginning, like a negative thing creeps in your mind. It's like
Zach Bitter (03:17.280)
super easy just to slap it down and say, like, get out of here. You know, I did the training,
Zach Bitter (03:21.280)
I'm fit, I'm feeling fresh still. You know, everything's going well at this point in time.
Zach Bitter (03:26.080)
You get a little further along in the race and you're starting to feel a bit of the fatigue,
Zach Bitter (03:31.120)
I mean, a little bit of self doubt creeps in. You start asking yourself, well, you know,
Zach Bitter (03:34.480)
maybe I should have done one more long run or did I did I not quite taper long enough? And those
Zach Bitter (03:38.960)
things can kind of spiral into a negative way. And if if you let it keep going, it keeps going
Zach Bitter (03:44.320)
all the way to like, why am I here? Why am I doing this? This is stupid. All the way to like,
Zach Bitter (03:51.920)
there's another one of these two weeks from now, I'm going to drop out of this one and sign up for
Zach Bitter (03:54.960)
that one instead. And then you just find yourself in the exact same situation. So you kind of have
Zach Bitter (03:59.280)
to go through the process, I think is why I think there's kind of a I won't say it's a rule of thumb
Zach Bitter (04:06.000)
necessarily, but something I think is fairly valuable is if you do a hundred mile or the first
Zach Bitter (04:11.440)
time, make sure you get it done, even if it means like, you know, death marching is what they'll
Zach Bitter (04:17.840)
call it in the alternate community at the end of the race. Just to say, like, you got that full
Zach Bitter (04:22.480)
experience, you experience the highs, the lows, the full thing, the starting, the crossing the
Zach Bitter (04:26.640)
finish line, that release of emotion when you're done and all that stuff. So that when you go back
Zach Bitter (04:32.400)
to do it again, you have like a template to build off of, then you know, or you just have some data
Zach Bitter (04:37.600)
to pull from about how your mind is going to work as well as your body so that you can start
Lex Fridman (04:41.440)
practicing Well, what do I have to do to kind of keep my mind from spiraling in a negative direction?
Zach Bitter (04:45.680)
Or how do I catch some positive momentum and kind of keep sending it that way, and things like that.
Lex Fridman (04:51.120)
And that just I think, you just add to that over a career of running them or a series of running
Zach Bitter (04:57.360)
them and it sharpens. It's kind of like any sport with that where, you know, you always have this
Zach Bitter (05:02.080)
balance between the youthfulness that you may have earlier in your career versus the wise
Zach Bitter (05:07.120)
intelligence that you have maybe near the end of your career. So in terms of wisdom, is there
Zach Bitter (05:11.920)
mechanisms by which you kind of observe the negative thoughts and let them go? So you have
Zach Bitter (05:18.160)
a people like the David Goggins is who kind of this, he seems to almost like separate his mind
Zach Bitter (05:25.040)
into there's the weak David that he hates. And then there's this strong, strong one. I mean,
Zach Bitter (05:32.640)
there's like a very contentious relationship there. So he basically says, like, I refuse to
Zach Bitter (05:38.400)
be that person. And he's almost like angry at that person. It's almost like sometimes
Zach Bitter (05:42.480)
literally yelling at that person, the weak version of themselves. And then there's another more sort
Zach Bitter (05:47.440)
of Sam Harris the approach, which is like, just observe the thought and let it go. Maybe knowing
Zach Bitter (05:56.720)
that this too shall pass, like no matter what it, this moment will not last forever. And kind of
Zach Bitter (06:02.480)
sort of accepting the natural flow of things and taking one step at a time and allowing whatever
Zach Bitter (06:07.840)
the negativity, whatever the pain you're experiencing just to pass, even if it means a
Zach Bitter (06:12.720)
death march, which one is more effective for you? Which one, like, would you say generally speaking
Zach Bitter (06:18.160)
to the population is more effective? Yeah, that's a really good question. It's probably unique to
Zach Bitter (06:24.080)
the individual. I wouldn't argue that, you know, David is finding success with his approach.
Zach Bitter (06:30.880)
Some may argue it's an extreme version. You know, Sam has obviously thought about these things and
Zach Bitter (06:37.360)
really probably, you know, I see those guys as kind of two ends of the spectrum in just the
Zach Bitter (06:42.320)
way that they kind of come across in general, where like David's like really at your kind of
Zach Bitter (06:47.440)
high energy and Sam's kind of this calming, soft presence and he's just going to slowly,
Zach Bitter (06:52.320)
methodically lay it all out there. And I think there's value on in both of those. I think
Zach Bitter (06:57.760)
most people are probably going to get a benefit from pulling some from each. I mean, there's
Zach Bitter (07:03.120)
times where, where I need a kick in the ass and then it's like, have the strong Zach, tell the
Zach Bitter (07:08.000)
weak Zach to get moving. But there's also times where, you know, it's just like, you know, a
Zach Bitter (07:13.120)
subtle voice entering my head about, you know, I don't know if I feel quite right now. Should I
Zach Bitter (07:18.400)
maybe pull back on the pace? And I think that little subtle voice is best approached with a
Zach Bitter (07:24.320)
subtle positive voice where it's more like, okay, well let's think this through here for a second.
Zach Bitter (07:29.040)
You're 40 miles into a hundred mile race. You spent four months preparing for it.
Zach Bitter (07:33.360)
Uh, you know, from the workouts you did that you're ready for this, there really isn't any
Zach Bitter (07:38.160)
real reason for you to slow down or to fall off your goal or your pace or, you know, reassess
Lex Fridman (07:44.080)
what you're doing. Let's just give this another mile or two. And then we can reassess if we need
Zach Bitter (07:50.240)
to, and in order to kind of figure out if I'm doing the right things or not. And I think like
Zach Bitter (07:54.960)
in that situation, um, you definitely probably want to lean more towards the Sam Harris approach
Zach Bitter (08:00.000)
with that because there's really no reason to, it's almost like the same thing you see with like
Zach Bitter (08:04.640)
just training and even nutrition to a degree where like some folks, they just want to be like,
Zach Bitter (08:10.080)
kind of like drilled. They want to be like yelled at and said, like, get going, get doing this. And
Zach Bitter (08:15.360)
that helps and that motivates them. That helps them stay accountable. Other people need some
Zach Bitter (08:19.760)
softer love with it where it's like, you know, this isn't necessarily your thought, your, your
Zach Bitter (08:24.160)
fault. You were put in this environment that kind of created an atmosphere of lethargy and
Zach Bitter (08:29.440)
lethargy and maybe poor nutritional choices and things like that. And, and like, so, but it's,
Zach Bitter (08:35.280)
it's correctable. So we need to, we need to step away from that and we need to kind of start
Zach Bitter (08:39.360)
heading in the direction that we know is going to bear fruit down the road. And that person may
Zach Bitter (08:43.360)
respond better to that. So I think both those guys have great value with their approaches.
Zach Bitter (08:48.480)
They're just probably polar ends of that, of the spectrum. And I think most people are probably
Zach Bitter (08:52.800)
going to benefit like anything, right? You get the polarizing ones and those are going to work
Zach Bitter (08:56.400)
right for the polarizing people. But then most people are going to fit somewhere in the middle.
Lex Fridman (08:59.600)
So they're probably going to be able to kind of pull from both of those if they're able to sit
Zach Bitter (09:03.920)
down and kind of like assess which one's going to work better in which situation. So the quitting
Zach Bitter (09:08.320)
thing that you mentioned, the, like the final stage, which actually I get to much quicker
Zach Bitter (09:13.360)
than you seem to, which is like, why am I doing this? I get there with basically anything I do.
Zach Bitter (09:19.920)
It's like, this is, this is probably the stupidest thing I've ever done is the feeling I get often.
Lex Fridman (09:26.000)
And then immediately you have these excuses that are like, there's all these other better things
Zach Bitter (09:30.880)
you should be doing. Or, or the other alternative of that, like you said, I'm not prepared enough
Zach Bitter (09:37.440)
for this moment. I'll be much more prepared in two weeks for the next event. So like,
Lex Fridman (09:42.560)
why let's try this again. Let's start over. Let's start over in two weeks.
Lex Fridman (09:47.600)
How do you deal with that quit? Like, so maybe do you still go through that process and
Lex Fridman (09:54.800)
and by way of advice for people that are more sort of amateurish like me, how to deal with
Zach Bitter (10:01.360)
that quitting voice? I think a lot of times when the quitting voice kind of comes in,
Zach Bitter (10:06.960)
it, what it does is it kind of just, it comes in with the added disadvantage, I guess,
Zach Bitter (10:13.680)
in this situation of being kind of a narrow scoped view where you're looking at like,
Lex Fridman (10:19.680)
what it's doing to you in the moment or how you're feeling in the moment versus how
Zach Bitter (10:23.840)
are you feeling about the whole process? So one thing that I started doing in 2019, and I think,
Zach Bitter (10:30.720)
I don't think it's necessarily, I think, I think, I think this was a big reason why I had one of
Zach Bitter (10:37.600)
my best racing seasons in 2019 that I'd had to that date. It was part of it was I started, I
Zach Bitter (10:43.680)
think, putting a little more emphasis on the big picture versus putting emphasis on like,
Zach Bitter (10:49.040)
this is one opportunity or one day of work. And this is one, one emotional kind of flare up.
Lex Fridman (10:57.040)
But how does that actually relate to my general broader picture? So when I decide to do a race
Zach Bitter (11:03.120)
or an event or something like that, it's often four, six months out ahead of time,
Zach Bitter (11:08.000)
you're planning to like kind of do a series of workouts and a flow of things where you're going
Zach Bitter (11:12.640)
through the process of getting fit, getting ready, preparing for the specifics of the day
Lex Fridman (11:16.000)
and all that stuff. And then you get to the race itself or the event itself. And
Zach Bitter (11:20.480)
it's very easy to look at that and think that's an isolation. Like I'm going to run 12 hours today,
Zach Bitter (11:26.960)
or I'm going to run a hundred miles today or whatever it ends up being. And it's a lot easier
Zach Bitter (11:31.360)
to quit when you think to yourself, I'm 40 miles into a hundred mile race. You know, that's just a
Zach Bitter (11:38.160)
40 mile run, which sounds kind of silly to most people, but in perspective, then we're talking
Zach Bitter (11:43.440)
about the ultra marathon running community. You know, it's a lot easier just to say like, well,
Zach Bitter (11:47.200)
you know, I'll scrap this 40 miles and try again. It's a lot harder to say I'm going to scrap the
Zach Bitter (11:52.720)
entire last four months, the entire reason why I was doing it, the countless hours I spent in there.
Lex Fridman (11:58.320)
So I think I just try to reposition it of like, I'm in a bad place right now,
Zach Bitter (12:02.240)
maybe in my head or I'm not, I'm hitting a low point here, but I'm 99% of the way towards the
Zach Bitter (12:08.560)
goal I set out four months ago when I add in all the work I did leading up to that.
Lex Fridman (12:12.080)
So I think it's important to ask yourself why, because, I mean, there are times when you're
Zach Bitter (12:18.720)
doing something and you ask yourself why, and you don't have a good reason. And then maybe it is
Zach Bitter (12:23.120)
advantageous to step back and really reflect on that and decide, is this something I actually want
Zach Bitter (12:27.760)
to invest time and energy into? Because, you know, someone like yourself who is very much
Zach Bitter (12:34.000)
into a variety of different things, it can be easy probably to overextend and get, I mean,
Zach Bitter (12:40.320)
I'm a very curious person. So there's like a hundred things I would love to do if I wasn't
Zach Bitter (12:44.160)
doing what I'm doing. And I know how to enjoy all of them. So at a certain point though,
Zach Bitter (12:49.280)
you have to say, okay, which one is going to be the most meaningful for me? And if the answer
Zach Bitter (12:53.360)
keeps coming back to saying, I guess this is still the most meaningful to me out of that
Zach Bitter (12:56.960)
a hundred things that I could otherwise be doing, then I know that I'm in it for the right reason.
Zach Bitter (13:02.240)
Then I just need to identify some of those things like, well, why did this one take the top spot out
Zach Bitter (13:07.040)
of the hundred things that I could have picked from? And keeping like a list of those in your
Lex Fridman (13:11.840)
head so that when you get to that point where you start saying, why am I doing this? Why am I here?
Zach Bitter (13:16.640)
You just have those kind of ready loaded in your head to say, well, I already took inventory on
Zach Bitter (13:20.640)
that before I started this. And I knew this voice was going to come at some point, whether it's
Zach Bitter (13:23.840)
early, middle or late. And then you just remind yourself kind of what you were thinking when you
Zach Bitter (13:28.800)
had a little more of a level head. Well, there's something about the thing you mentioned when you
Zach Bitter (13:32.160)
mentioned the death march. It seems extremely valuable to just never quitting. Like in the
Zach Bitter (13:39.600)
moment, if you decide to do something, like never quitting, even if you do go through the process
Lex Fridman (13:47.280)
and realize that it's not the wisest thing to be doing within the full context of your life.
Zach Bitter (13:53.120)
Like once you decide to do it, it seems like never quitting prevents you from sort of having that
Zach Bitter (14:00.080)
escape clause from other things in your life. So I've quit on a few things in my life. And
Zach Bitter (14:06.400)
I think I still, I deeply regret that because it opened that door. It's almost like a muscle.
Zach Bitter (14:14.080)
I don't know. So I think I'm, I don't know, maybe everyone is, but I think I'm kind of a quitter.
Zach Bitter (14:21.600)
You know what I mean? Like I'm really good at coming up with reasons to quit.
Zach Bitter (14:27.440)
My mind is really good at that. And I, it feels like I have to come up with, like really work
Zach Bitter (14:33.840)
hard to make sure that there's no quit. That I never allow myself to quit no matter how stupid
Zach Bitter (14:39.840)
the thing I'm doing is. I don't know if that any of that makes sense, but it just, maybe to
Lex Fridman (14:45.120)
rephrase this whole thing. Do you think it's good to live life by the ethos of never quit?
Zach Bitter (14:52.960)
Yeah, that's a really interesting thing. And I think it actually resonates with a lot of
Zach Bitter (14:57.760)
ultra marathon runners because there seems to be a trend when you have someone who's been in the
Zach Bitter (15:03.680)
sport for a long time where there's a point where they start the sport, right? And they're like,
Zach Bitter (15:08.720)
super excited about everything. Everything's new. It's very easy not to quit because you're like,
Zach Bitter (15:13.680)
Oh, this is the first time I've ever run a 50 case. The first time I ever run a 50 miles,
Zach Bitter (15:16.960)
the first time I ever in a hundred case, first time I ever in a hundred miles and so on and so forth.
Lex Fridman (15:20.720)
And when you're doing that for the first time, I think there's a heightened motivation to not quit
Zach Bitter (15:27.360)
because you don't want your first attempt to be a failure. And then you get a little further along
Lex Fridman (15:34.000)
and you start reflecting on the landscape and all the opportunities that are out there and you find
Zach Bitter (15:38.480)
yourself quitting on an event. And there does seem to be a trend where once you do that once,
Zach Bitter (15:44.720)
now all of a sudden, like you, like you described perfectly that quit pops up in your head maybe a
Zach Bitter (15:50.800)
little sooner than next time or maybe a little bit before. And I've certainly had these experiences
Zach Bitter (15:54.960)
in my career as well. And what happens, I think if you stick with it, again, I think it is important
Zach Bitter (16:01.440)
to assess whether you really want to be doing what you're doing. But if you start recognizing that
Zach Bitter (16:06.720)
about yourself in a certain activity where it's like, I think I might be pulling the plug early on
Zach Bitter (16:10.240)
some of this stuff. I think you just need to kind of get into a position where you just at that point,
Zach Bitter (16:16.560)
you need to make a decision. Do I want to keep doing this? If the answer is yes, you hold yourself
Zach Bitter (16:20.640)
accountable to not quitting. And eventually what will happen is you'll find yourself in a position
Zach Bitter (16:25.280)
where I'll use ultra marathons, for example, where you're just clicking on all cylinders for that day.
Lex Fridman (16:30.000)
And you still get those scenarios where doubt creeps in your mind. You have these low points,
Lex Fridman (16:35.120)
but for whatever reason, when those low points are high, you're going to find yourself in a
Zach Bitter (16:39.440)
reason when those low points come, you're able to push through them better than you would have in
Zach Bitter (16:43.200)
the past. And then you push through maybe two or three more than you did after you had quit the
Zach Bitter (16:48.400)
time before. Then it's accountability time, right? Because then you have to look back at that and say,
Zach Bitter (16:54.560)
well, why did this time, was I able to be mentally more strong and kind of push through those extra
Zach Bitter (17:02.480)
opportunities to quit when I wasn't before? And it can be easy to look back and say,
Lex Fridman (17:07.280)
and live kind of retroactively in the sense where you're regretting, well, why did I drop out of
Zach Bitter (17:12.640)
those races? Why did I do this wrong there? And I just think that's where you have to kind of
Zach Bitter (17:16.640)
catch yourself and say, no, those things happened to me in order to put me in a position where I
Zach Bitter (17:21.680)
decided, well, this time I'm not going to quit no matter what, minus my leg falling off. I'm not
Zach Bitter (17:27.360)
going to quit. And then you put yourself in a position to have that day where you push through
Zach Bitter (17:31.840)
more times than you ever have before. And you just redefine what you're capable of. And then once I
Zach Bitter (17:35.840)
think you do that, you start looking at those earlier lessons as, as lessons, you know, were
Zach Bitter (17:41.680)
they failures on paper at the time? Probably. But can you pull things from them to learn as to like,
Zach Bitter (17:47.520)
well, where is your actual threshold? Where is the limit actually for you? And then kind of start
Zach Bitter (17:52.000)
redefining that stuff. Um, so I think like the never quit mentality can be good in certain
Zach Bitter (17:59.840)
situations, but I don't think it's necessarily like a, like a holistic thing where you need to be in
Zach Bitter (18:05.920)
something where it's never quit, always do more. Cause then you end up in a situation where you
Zach Bitter (18:09.840)
find this like margin of diminishing returns, especially when it comes to training and workouts
Lex Fridman (18:13.440)
and things like that, where there are times where often there are times where you want to actually
Zach Bitter (18:18.720)
quit a little bit before you would have to, because the stress that was required to elicit a, a growth
Zach Bitter (18:23.760)
response has already occurred. And then just to do more is just going to require more recovery time
Zach Bitter (18:27.680)
to get back and do it again. Yeah. This is the tricky trade off living by the never quit mentality.
Zach Bitter (18:33.760)
You're not going to achieve optimal performance in your head. You might.
Lex Fridman (18:39.600)
It seems like when you look at the full arc of human history,
Zach Bitter (18:45.440)
the people who do great things are more leaning towards the never quit. Like, uh, I feel like at
Zach Bitter (18:53.440)
any one moment you're more in danger of quitting than you are being suboptimal. So like, um, in
Zach Bitter (19:00.720)
terms of advice, it just feels like never quitting is always the right advice. Unless you deeply know
Zach Bitter (19:09.040)
the person, maybe this is like wrestling mentality. I've seen too many, and because I'm annoyed with
Zach Bitter (19:15.040)
the current culture telling me to relax and, and, uh, have a work life balance and all those kinds
Zach Bitter (19:19.680)
of things, uh, which all have a deep, deep truth to them. But the reality is like, there's not enough
Zach Bitter (19:27.680)
people that walk up to me and like slap me and say, get your shit together. Like don't quit,
Zach Bitter (19:35.440)
work harder. I think we need to hear that more. I, and like, I remember that, um, from the wrestling
Zach Bitter (19:42.480)
rooms, like that when you're pushed that way, when you're forced to the very limit and you don't quit,
Zach Bitter (19:48.960)
that makes better humans. I think people need to get that in their life. I think they need to have
Zach Bitter (19:55.200)
situations where that becomes kind of the reality for them so they can see that avenue, experience
Zach Bitter (1:00:02.400)
intensity. And, uh, if you're seeing that continually go down, you're heading in the
Zach Bitter (1:00:06.720)
right direction. If you start seeing it go the opposite way, you're, you're probably overreaching
Zach Bitter (1:00:11.520)
where you're trying to do too much of it. So that's kind of dictates how much the dose,
Zach Bitter (1:00:15.360)
I guess you'd say, when we talk about max aerobic function, we're talking about heart rate as the
Zach Bitter (1:00:19.520)
ultimate, as the really important metric here. So maintaining a particular heart rate during the run.
Zach Bitter (1:00:25.200)
Uh, is that the measure that, like, how do you know you're in the right place? Yeah. Yeah. And
Zach Bitter (1:00:29.200)
then that's where it gets a little tricky because like, unless you go into a lab and get your aerobic
Zach Bitter (1:00:32.800)
threshold tested, it's really hard to have like an exact number on it. Um, you know, Dr. Phil
Zach Bitter (1:00:37.600)
Maffetone with the maximum function process, he'll say 180 minus your age is going to give you your.
Zach Bitter (1:00:42.640)
Yeah. That's the MAF 180 formula that I thought was fascinating for, it's like, uh, in the same
Zach Bitter (1:00:47.200)
way E equals E equals MC squared is fascinating that there could be a formula that captures like
Zach Bitter (1:00:52.480)
optimal running. So that for people who don't know that's 180 minus your age, if you train at that
Zach Bitter (1:00:59.200)
heart rate, if you run at that heart rate, you're going to progress a lot. And here's the advantage
Zach Bitter (1:01:02.720)
of that. I think like with any of these things, you want to look at it through where are the
Zach Bitter (1:01:07.360)
advantages here and I need to account for those. And then where are the potential disadvantages
Lex Fridman (1:01:11.440)
and then decide for me as an individual, do these advantages outweigh the disadvantages
Lex Fridman (1:01:16.320)
on what's the alternative approach and is that going to produce more advantages or less?
Lex Fridman (1:01:20.080)
So with, with maximum function, uh, here's some advantages. Like it is low enough intensity
Zach Bitter (1:01:26.160)
where you can train pretty consistently at a fairly high volume with a very low injury risk
Zach Bitter (1:01:33.920)
with a very low, like things that are going to maybe lower your quality of life, like muscle
Zach Bitter (1:01:38.640)
damage and things like that. Um, it's a more efficient way in the sense that you're going to
Zach Bitter (1:01:43.280)
be like prioritizing like fat metabolization, which, um, I mean, if you're looking at like
Zach Bitter (1:01:48.160)
Jeff Follick and Dr. Jeff Follick and Dr. Dominic DiAgostino, some of their research and things like
Zach Bitter (1:01:53.360)
that, like they're going to show that, you know, that's going to be a little cleaner way to go
Zach Bitter (1:01:57.360)
about things from just a recovery standpoint, a breakdown standpoint. So they could be like a,
Lex Fridman (1:02:02.240)
what they call like a fat adapted athlete. So you can go to your fat stores for energy if you're
Zach Bitter (1:02:08.720)
applying this math. What is it called by the way? Math 180. Is that a good, what are your thoughts
Zach Bitter (1:02:14.800)
about in general for yourself and for the broader population? I think the math 180 formula is about
Zach Bitter (1:02:21.760)
as good of a formula as you're going to find in terms of capturing as many people as you can get
Zach Bitter (1:02:27.120)
away with capturing with a kind of a universal thing. Uh, like any of these things, I mean,
Zach Bitter (1:02:31.840)
it's, it's more likely kind of on a bell curve where like the bulk of that 180 minus their age
Zach Bitter (1:02:37.520)
is probably going to be a pretty good, at least starting point to kind of figure out where that is.
Zach Bitter (1:02:41.200)
There's some other things you can like maybe use to kind of check it that I like to do. If I'm,
Zach Bitter (1:02:46.640)
let's say I just, I did 180 minus my age and I went out and I started running and it was like,
Zach Bitter (1:02:51.040)
I'm running along and I'm just like, my, my breathing is labored. I'm, you know, I'm struggling
Zach Bitter (1:02:56.640)
to get a sentence out without gasping for breath. Well, that's my body telling me I'm probably not
Zach Bitter (1:03:01.360)
actually at my true like math number or my true, like underneath my true aerobic threshold, like
Zach Bitter (1:03:06.960)
aerobic threshold and maximum function, you should be able to do that for hours and you should be
Zach Bitter (1:03:10.320)
able to breathe pretty efficiently and talk. Yep. Carry a conversation. Um, other people will say,
Zach Bitter (1:03:15.600)
like you, another way to kind of gauge it, if you can breathe in your nose and out your mouth,
Zach Bitter (1:03:19.600)
that's not necessarily the best way to do on a, from a performance standpoint, but it can be a
Zach Bitter (1:03:23.760)
good kind of governor that will allow you to, like, if you can, if you can no longer breathe
Zach Bitter (1:03:28.480)
in your nose and out your mouth, you're probably going too fast to actually technically be at your
Zach Bitter (1:03:31.760)
math pace or under your math pace. Yeah. I had, uh, actually when I was in, in better shape,
Zach Bitter (1:03:36.960)
I had trouble getting to that math number. I found myself like that I would be doing way too much
Zach Bitter (1:03:43.920)
work. Like it was too hard to do. It was too hard to get to that number. I was running a much lower
Zach Bitter (1:03:49.280)
heart rate, like 10 to 20, what do you call that beats lower. And that's, I was still for myself,
Zach Bitter (1:03:55.920)
happy with the pace. It was a good pace and, and I was, felt good. I was smiling and enjoying life
Zach Bitter (1:04:01.040)
and, uh, I did. And the moment I take myself to that, uh, level of like the, the math 180 level,
Zach Bitter (1:04:08.480)
that's like, that felt like a real workout. Yeah. And it felt like I can't do that for five, 10,
Lex Fridman (1:04:13.600)
15 miles. Like I, I started feeling it like this is a one or two mile thing.
Zach Bitter (1:04:18.240)
No, but I think his answer to that, uh, Phil Meftone's answer is maybe you're supposed to like,
Zach Bitter (1:04:26.320)
uh, what, maybe do some more sprints or something like that, or build up your, maybe like I'm too
Zach Bitter (1:04:32.000)
weak. Yeah. Musculature wise to like, uh, yeah, like that, that's a sign that you need to work
Zach Bitter (1:04:37.520)
on some stuff. You can't just keep enjoying life. There's, there's two ways to look at that,
Zach Bitter (1:04:40.720)
I think. And I think you're, you're, you're right on. I think that what the advice from that, from
Zach Bitter (1:04:45.840)
that kind of a process would say is either you, you're doing too much of it. So it's getting too
Zach Bitter (1:04:52.080)
hard for where your skeletal muscle system is currently at for that particular activity. So
Zach Bitter (1:04:56.800)
like, it can be different too. Like if you're cycling versus running, you know, that's a little
Zach Bitter (1:05:00.960)
bit of different mechanic where it can be different where you could take a super fit cyclist and then
Zach Bitter (1:05:06.240)
put them on, you know, the, the volume, the volume they're going to be able to tolerate relative to
Lex Fridman (1:05:10.480)
what you're going to do when you remove like impact forces and things like that is going to be
Zach Bitter (1:05:14.160)
lower if they haven't been practicing that activity. So for you, like, you know, you're prioritizing,
Zach Bitter (1:05:18.000)
like, uh, uh, wrestling and mixed martial arts or not mixed martial arts, but jujitsu type stuff. So,
Zach Bitter (1:05:24.080)
uh, you know, running is maybe kind of that, that, uh, that secondary activity versus the primary
Zach Bitter (1:05:30.400)
activity. But yeah, so what they would say is probably like, maybe instead of doing that at,
Zach Bitter (1:05:35.680)
let's say you were doing that for like 30 miles a week or something like that, and it was getting
Zach Bitter (1:05:39.680)
too hard to continue there, they'd say, you know, come back to 20, get used to 20, get comfortable
Zach Bitter (1:05:44.880)
with 20, then let's get you up to 25 and 30 and kind of just like inch you along.
Zach Bitter (1:05:50.000)
One of the intuitions I had about the ways I was failing at running is the form was probably not
Zach Bitter (1:05:56.560)
great. Like the way to get to those 30, 40 miles is to get the form right. Maybe I was doing too
Zach Bitter (1:06:04.560)
big of steps, not so like playing with a different gate, playing with a different kind of, um, the
Zach Bitter (1:06:10.080)
form of your form, the economy, the efficiency. Yeah. So that was, that was the intuition. Like
Zach Bitter (1:06:15.200)
I was doing something wrong, but I suppose that's the benefit of these kind of formulas. It
Zach Bitter (1:06:19.040)
challenges you to think like, how can I improve this kind of stuff? Well, and it also, it simplifies
Zach Bitter (1:06:24.160)
it so much that you're forced to, right? You're forced to optimize within that real strict
Zach Bitter (1:06:29.280)
parameter versus am I doing my short intervals right, but my long runs wrong? Or am I doing my
Zach Bitter (1:06:35.760)
like long intervals right, but my short intervals, and then you just, it kind of complicates things
Zach Bitter (1:06:39.920)
when you start throwing a lot of stuff there. And for most people, especially when they're first
Zach Bitter (1:06:43.440)
getting started, you know, you're, you can't overcomplicate it or you're just going to like,
Zach Bitter (1:06:48.320)
you're going to do like a bunch of half right, half wrong things and then not really know where
Zach Bitter (1:06:52.640)
your progress or your deficits are necessarily at. So I do think this is an amazing approach,
Zach Bitter (1:06:58.560)
especially for people who are just getting into it and building that, that foundation, um, where,
Zach Bitter (1:07:04.560)
where I think maybe you want to deviate from that a little bit, especially when you start getting
Zach Bitter (1:07:08.160)
to these events that are operating well outside that intensity. So you take something like, um,
Zach Bitter (1:07:14.560)
you know, let's say it's a race that takes you in the neighborhood of around like 12 minutes or
Zach Bitter (1:07:19.120)
something like that, then you're going to be running significantly faster than your, your
Zach Bitter (1:07:23.120)
maximum function pace. So most of the research is going to say at some point in time, you need to
Zach Bitter (1:07:28.880)
get around to practicing the pace at which you're going to perform at and really fine tuning the
Zach Bitter (1:07:33.200)
mechanics, uh, the efficiencies, uh, how it feels, how to judge it, how to pace it at the pace you're
Zach Bitter (1:07:40.160)
going to try to compete at. So there's obviously like a large range of targets there when we're
Zach Bitter (1:07:43.760)
talking about the endurance world in general, where, you know, you have these shorter events,
Zach Bitter (1:07:47.120)
like five kilometers, and then you also have a hundred mile races, which are going to typically
Zach Bitter (1:07:50.800)
be quite a bit below your maximum heroic function in, especially on these trail races.
Zach Bitter (1:07:54.720)
I need to admit something. So I don't measure the runs at all in terms of, uh, time, uh,
Zach Bitter (1:08:01.280)
because I get competitive with myself. So I kind of decided that running for me is going to be this
Zach Bitter (1:08:07.360)
thing where I just go by feel. Is it possible to be that kind of runner and, you know, still have
Zach Bitter (1:08:13.040)
running as part of your life and be a good performer in running? I actually think that's,
Zach Bitter (1:08:17.680)
that's where you want to get to. The problem is most people have a hard time getting to that
Zach Bitter (1:08:22.800)
because they'll go out and they'll run with a friend and match their pace. Or they'll go out
Lex Fridman (1:08:27.520)
and they'll say, well, I want to run this pace. So they'll target that pace or target a specific
Zach Bitter (1:08:32.080)
heart rate, which is, you know, not necessarily how they maybe feel good doing it. So I think
Zach Bitter (1:08:38.240)
like once you, I mean, obviously I think when you put a race on the calendar, if your goal is
Zach Bitter (1:08:43.280)
performance, it's a little harder to just say like, well, I'm going to run whatever feels good today
Zach Bitter (1:08:47.280)
because eventually you have to get around to doing what's specific. But from just a fitness
Zach Bitter (1:08:51.200)
standpoint, health standpoint, enjoyment standpoint, um, I think it's totally fine to go out and say,
Zach Bitter (1:08:56.080)
I'm going to run what feels good today. And you know, maybe someday you will feel like at
Zach Bitter (1:08:59.120)
the end of the run, I'm going to do a couple of sprints just to get some, you know, that,
Zach Bitter (1:09:02.000)
because it does, that one's a hard one to kind of jumpstart, but once you do it and you realize how
Zach Bitter (1:09:06.480)
kind of good it feels, maybe to throw in a few accelerations at the end of a run. And then you,
Zach Bitter (1:09:10.160)
you say, oh wow, that feels pretty good to do that. I feel a little more accomplished.
Zach Bitter (1:09:13.200)
That's right. That's a forcing function, but I like to finish runs with sprints anyway.
Zach Bitter (1:09:17.200)
Okay. Because you're already there without, right. You don't need to the timing. I'm afraid
Zach Bitter (1:09:21.440)
of the time becoming a drug, but the flip side of that, it's a useful tool to get you to learn
Zach Bitter (1:09:27.120)
the right form, the right feel, like what it feels like to have to be in good shape.
Lex Fridman (1:09:32.640)
And then you can throw out the time. Well, I think too with, with feel running. And what
Zach Bitter (1:09:36.320)
I mean by that is that kind of back to that perceived effort thing where like you do enough
Zach Bitter (1:09:39.520)
of it and you start being able to recognize, like I can go out and if you said, okay, run,
Zach Bitter (1:09:45.440)
you know, 60 minutes at your aerobic threshold, I could go, I could know where that is on my
Zach Bitter (1:09:51.120)
heart rate. And I could go out there and just say like, okay, I know what that feels like and go
Zach Bitter (1:09:54.640)
out and run that feel. And I'm going to hit that spot. Like I bet you if we looked at my heart
Zach Bitter (1:09:59.360)
rate data after that, it'd be right in there. And I wouldn't have to look at some of that's
Zach Bitter (1:10:02.000)
just experience. Someone's just understanding like when like noticing the physiological responses,
Zach Bitter (1:10:07.920)
when you cross over versus step a little bit too below it, uh, you can get yourself daydreaming
Lex Fridman (1:10:12.400)
and forget. I'll do this sometimes too, where I'll be tart. Cause I'm kind of like you too,
Zach Bitter (1:10:15.920)
where when I'm getting really fit, uh, especially with my foundation, like I gotta, you know,
Zach Bitter (1:10:20.880)
I'm moving pretty quick at my aerobic threshold. So like if I start daydreaming too much, I can
Zach Bitter (1:10:25.280)
notice, Oh, I'm drifting back a little bit. I looked down at my heart rate matter. Oh yeah,
Zach Bitter (1:10:27.760)
I'm 10 beats under, you know, so you do it. It does take a little bit of, I think just awareness.
Zach Bitter (1:10:33.040)
Um, but it's also not necessarily something where you have to be so exact that you're hitting things,
Zach Bitter (1:10:38.800)
you know, an exact heart rate all the time. There's usually a range and there's even like
Zach Bitter (1:10:43.200)
some fluctuations where like if you've been healthy for a year or two without any injuries
Lex Fridman (1:10:47.760)
and you've been fit that you can probably add five beats to your maximum aerobic function.
Zach Bitter (1:10:51.680)
If you're using that as kind of your, your target from the 180 minus your age formula.
Lex Fridman (1:10:55.440)
So let's try this, lay this out for yourself, but for others, you, you offer readymade plans
Zach Bitter (1:11:01.120)
for people, you know, depending on their, I think the key thing there is the distance.
Zach Bitter (1:11:06.720)
Maybe you can elaborate, but what does that plan look like? Usually what are the key
Zach Bitter (1:11:13.040)
options as you've already kind of mentioned? And how does your week look like? How do a lot of
Zach Bitter (1:11:19.520)
people's week look like in terms of splits? Are we talking about, um, you know, in terms of rest
Zach Bitter (1:11:25.280)
days, in terms of how often do you do speed work versus longer distance? You mentioned long runs.
Zach Bitter (1:11:31.840)
Like, is there something you could say that's generally applicable about the, the structure
Zach Bitter (1:11:38.480)
of these plans? The readymade plans, I definitely follow like a philosophy, um, and it's going to
Zach Bitter (1:11:43.360)
be like kind of like lockstep in that. Um, so for those, like there's always going to be a sacrifice
Zach Bitter (1:11:48.560)
when you do like a readymade plan because there's, you're removing the individual context there.
Lex Fridman (1:11:52.880)
So for folks who are like really want to get into the weeds, I usually do like a personalized
Zach Bitter (1:11:56.320)
coaching plan with them where we sit down and we actually look at their strengths, their weaknesses
Lex Fridman (1:12:00.320)
and really kind of go in from that perspective and fine tune it. And it also like it avoids
Zach Bitter (1:12:06.800)
it avoids a situation where, Oh, my readymade plan says I'm supposed to do this run today,
Lex Fridman (1:12:12.480)
but I don't feel great today. So what do I do? I mean, some people are fine with that because
Zach Bitter (1:12:15.760)
they're, they're, they're aware enough of like the process that they can adjust it themselves.
Zach Bitter (1:12:21.120)
Other folks just need a little more support. So, um, that's kind of the difference there,
Lex Fridman (1:12:24.880)
but in terms of the structure of it, it kind of goes with an approach where
Zach Bitter (1:12:29.040)
ogre saying you build this foundation, you're going to spend, you know, usually anywhere
Zach Bitter (1:12:33.440)
between eight to 12 weeks just building up your, your aerobic foundation. You're going to be doing
Zach Bitter (1:12:38.000)
a lot of stuff that are kind of at, I call them base runs, but they're basically your maximum
Zach Bitter (1:12:42.400)
aerobic function or you're up to your aerobic threshold type stuff. And they're really going
Zach Bitter (1:12:46.320)
to get really fit with that. And once they kind of have that foundation laid, then it's time to
Zach Bitter (1:12:50.480)
get into the specifics of whatever distance they're doing. So if it, where it will differ will
Zach Bitter (1:12:55.120)
be like if they're doing a right now on those plans, I think I've got 5k half marathon marathon,
Zach Bitter (1:12:59.680)
50k, 80 to a hundred K and then a hundred miles. So if they pick a 5k plan, the order of operations
Zach Bitter (1:13:05.280)
is going to be different than if they pick the a hundred mile plan, you're going to see
Zach Bitter (1:13:09.200)
some of the same workouts show up in that plan. It just going to be different areas of it. So once
Zach Bitter (1:13:14.320)
they're really fit at that, uh, you know, that foundational level, then, you know, if they're
Zach Bitter (1:13:19.840)
doing say a hundred mile plan, they might start doing some short intervals, which I would, on my
Zach Bitter (1:13:24.080)
plans, I usually range between 30 seconds up to four minutes. It's kind of that short interval
Zach Bitter (1:13:28.080)
range. Can you describe what you mean by short interval? It's like a sprint and then a rest.
Zach Bitter (1:13:33.440)
Yeah. Yeah. So I'll use basically like, I'll use like a, basically a 12 minute time trial
Lex Fridman (1:13:39.600)
and that's going to kind of like dictate for them what the intensity and the pace is going to be
Zach Bitter (1:13:43.440)
for some of those. When they're under a minute, they'll push past that a little bit. Um, but
Zach Bitter (1:13:48.480)
usually when we're up to like above a minute and certainly up to four minutes, like whatever pace
Zach Bitter (1:13:53.040)
or intensity that they get for that kind of 12 minute time trial, where they're just seeing how
Zach Bitter (1:13:57.040)
far they can go in 12 minutes is going to be, um, kind of like about where they're going to target
Zach Bitter (1:14:02.560)
for those intervals. So then those intervals are going to be structured. Let's say we were doing
Zach Bitter (1:14:05.920)
two minute intervals. They're going to do two minutes at that intensity that they could do for
Zach Bitter (1:14:09.840)
12 minutes at a time trial. Then they're going to do a two minute real easy jog, or maybe even walk
Zach Bitter (1:14:14.080)
just to kind of bounce back. And they're going to repeat it. How do you figure out how far you can
Zach Bitter (1:14:18.240)
go in 12 minutes? Is that just a trial and error you build up to it? There's formulas with,
Zach Bitter (1:14:23.280)
yeah, there's some newer formulas that are probably a little less, uh, um, brutal, uh,
Zach Bitter (1:14:29.760)
where you kind of, uh, I haven't really dove into these that that in depth yet. I know like, um,
Zach Bitter (1:14:35.920)
that you can kind of replicate it by doing like a short, a very short interval and then a slightly
Zach Bitter (1:14:40.640)
longer one. Um, and then like another one where like at the end one, that last one will kind of
Zach Bitter (1:14:45.920)
indicate what it is. Uh, and so you're doing less of it to get the same answer to the question.
Lex Fridman (1:14:50.560)
But sometimes I think when it's someone who's new, I'd rather them just do a 12 minute time trial
Zach Bitter (1:14:56.240)
because it's easy for them to execute in the sense that it's pretty clear. You do a warm up,
Zach Bitter (1:15:01.680)
you do some strides, maybe some dynamic stretches, and you just run as hard as you can for 12 minutes
Zach Bitter (1:15:06.000)
as evenly paced as you can manage. And, uh, I mean, if the, if it's going to produce the data
Zach Bitter (1:15:11.680)
I'm looking for, uh, and I mean, it's also no matter what happens, they'll produce the data.
Zach Bitter (1:15:17.040)
Yeah. I mean, you can, you can screw it up. I guess you can go way too fast. Then you have this
Zach Bitter (1:15:21.040)
scenario where like, Oh, it looks like your, you know, your first two minutes were drastically
Zach Bitter (1:15:24.480)
faster than your last two. And then it's like, Oh, we maybe screwed that one up. But, um,
Lex Fridman (1:15:28.800)
but I mean really like you don't even need to do the time trial technically. Um, a lot of times
Zach Bitter (1:15:34.160)
you can go off of feel like what we described with, um, the threshold stuff and, and, you know,
Zach Bitter (1:15:41.040)
it's a high enough intensity where, where like you can start to kind of like your, your body's
Zach Bitter (1:15:47.280)
going to kind of limit you to a degree where, um, if I said we didn't do the time trial and just
Zach Bitter (1:15:51.760)
started doing the intervals, we could figure out that, you know, if they're doing them right or
Zach Bitter (1:15:56.640)
not, if we see a scenario where, Oh, it looks like these first two intervals were significantly
Zach Bitter (1:16:00.320)
slower than the last two chances are, we're still not quite dialed in in terms of what the intensity
Zach Bitter (1:16:05.120)
is that you should be targeting for those. And as you do a few of them, you just get to know
Zach Bitter (1:16:08.720)
the pacing of it a little better. And then you start seeing more even split. So like, you know,
Zach Bitter (1:16:12.640)
their first two minute intervals pretty close within a couple seconds of their second, or,
Zach Bitter (1:16:16.240)
you know, I guess we'd be looking at distance if we're doing time. So like you went approximately
Zach Bitter (1:16:19.920)
the same distance on that last one as you did the first one. And then we're just looking for
Zach Bitter (1:16:23.680)
improvement over time. So, you know, we might spend four, six weeks kind of focusing on improving
Zach Bitter (1:16:29.200)
that we're going to still include kind of foundational running volume where you're going
Zach Bitter (1:16:33.680)
to be running like an easy pace and enjoyable pace kind of in the interim. And then there's going to
Zach Bitter (1:16:37.200)
be some rest days and that's going to be where the levels come in. My like level one plans are
Zach Bitter (1:16:41.520)
going to be like four day a week training plans. Level two are going to be five day level three
Zach Bitter (1:16:45.680)
are going to be six day with one day off. Um, and you can obviously operate outside of those,
Zach Bitter (1:16:50.480)
those, those are just the ones that I put up for the readymade when I'm coaching people kind of
Zach Bitter (1:16:53.520)
personalized. We just, we look at like what their history is with running their schedule,
Lex Fridman (1:16:57.680)
all sorts of stuff. Cause oftentimes people get hung up on like, well, what are the elites doing?
Lex Fridman (1:17:01.840)
What are the professionals doing? What are the Olympians doing? It's like, well, it's like what
Zach Bitter (1:17:05.280)
the Olympians are doing is they're waking up and they're living and breathing everything around
Zach Bitter (1:17:08.880)
this one race that they're going to do in four years. Or so it's like, we need to step away from
Zach Bitter (1:17:13.520)
that. If you're working, you know, 10 hours a day and you got kids and all this other stuff too. So,
Zach Bitter (1:17:17.440)
um, there's a lot of variables that make it more interesting to coach someone who's actually like
Zach Bitter (1:17:22.160)
not an elite athlete or someone who's a professional athlete, I should say, uh, the, but,
Lex Fridman (1:17:28.240)
but yeah, so they're, they're going to do that stuff. Those, those shorter intervals, um, for
Zach Bitter (1:17:33.600)
probably about like four to six weeks. If they're doing, if they're doing a longer race, like a
Zach Bitter (1:17:37.920)
hundred miles, if they were doing say a 5k, we'd start bringing those workouts in near the end of
Zach Bitter (1:17:42.080)
their plan. Cause that's going to be specific to their race pace. That's going to be the intensity
Zach Bitter (1:17:45.280)
that maybe they're doing for, you know, like a three K or a five K or something like that. So
Zach Bitter (1:17:49.120)
it's going to be more relative to what they're going to use. So it follows that philosophy.
Zach Bitter (1:17:53.360)
The plans follow that philosophy of weaknesses and least specific stuff early. And then we start
Zach Bitter (1:17:58.640)
phasing closer to most specific stuff and strengths as you get kind of near to the end of
Zach Bitter (1:18:04.480)
the plan. And then the distance of, or the time that you're going to spend out doing whatever event
Zach Bitter (1:18:09.200)
it is, is going to dictate how those kind of get ordered in there. I wonder if I could ask you for
Zach Bitter (1:18:13.040)
some sort of advice, maybe almost, uh, maybe look at me as a case study of a particular runner and
Zach Bitter (1:18:21.600)
runner and then see how we can plan stuff out. So which context to give. Okay. So I have been,
Zach Bitter (1:18:30.240)
first, let me say how much we're currently in Austin. I want to say how much I love Austin for
Zach Bitter (1:18:34.640)
many reasons. Uh, first and foremost, people are super kind and just like, there's so much love
Zach Bitter (1:18:41.760)
that I've experienced immediately when I came to the city versus many of the other cities I've been
Zach Bitter (1:18:46.640)
in. It's, uh, it's not quite as welcoming and full of kindness immediately. I mean, I really love,
Zach Bitter (1:18:53.920)
love it here in Austin. And because I've been going through a bunch of stressful stuff,
Zach Bitter (1:18:58.240)
I just kind of gave myself a chance to say, okay, I'm going to stick to a diet of carnivore, keto,
Lex Fridman (1:19:05.280)
but I'm going to eat as much as I want because, uh, primarily because just barbecue was part of
Zach Bitter (1:19:13.680)
the love I was getting here. And I was like, either I resist or just give in. And I decided
Zach Bitter (1:19:17.920)
to give in and actually use this as an opportunity to relax and have fun for the past three, four
Zach Bitter (1:19:22.320)
months, plus whiskey and so on. And then the training kind of all, I also let go of the
Zach Bitter (1:19:27.280)
training a little bit, just to relax, to really focus on the work, focus on the love I've been
Zach Bitter (1:19:32.240)
getting all those kinds of things. But now I just kind of want to set a goal for myself to get back
Zach Bitter (1:19:37.600)
into both competing and grappling, but also doing a, um, hanging out with David Goggins and, uh,
Zach Bitter (1:19:44.720)
doing a conversation with him, but almost this is my own personal kind of race that I'm looking
Zach Bitter (1:19:48.880)
forward to. And in terms of distance, that means running with David, uh, something like a marathon
Zach Bitter (1:19:57.360)
plus plus it's like, it's unclear what plus. So my goal would be to, uh, continue eating carnivore,
Zach Bitter (1:20:05.120)
which is a whole nother topic that I'd love to talk to you about. I feel great psychologically,
Zach Bitter (1:20:10.240)
sort of in terms of mental performance in my work when I eat carnivore and physically,
Zach Bitter (1:20:14.880)
I love it. I've never felt any kind of need for carbs to, uh, to improve performance in my running
Zach Bitter (1:20:22.560)
or anything else. Combine that with fasting, intermittent fasting, or eating once a day.
Zach Bitter (1:20:26.880)
I just, that's when I, uh, feel the best. What else? I also feel best. And this is something
Zach Bitter (1:20:33.600)
you can push back on. I feel best when I just run every day, like no breaks ever,
Lex Fridman (1:20:40.320)
and usually the same way every day. So like, I know this is suboptimal. It'd be interesting
Zach Bitter (1:20:48.400)
to hear your opinion of just how suboptimal that is. Uh, so I think that actually lays
Zach Bitter (1:20:53.680)
out like where my mind is. I'm happy eating carnivore once a day. I like running every day.
Zach Bitter (1:20:58.880)
Uh, the goal is to run a marathon in two months ish, two months plus, and then about three months
Zach Bitter (1:21:06.080)
to do a bunch of competitions and grappling. Okay. With those parameters, I think like you
Zach Bitter (1:21:11.600)
actually probably would be a great candidate for maximum heroic function training strategy.
Zach Bitter (1:21:15.600)
Like you want that consistency where I'm going to do the same thing each day. Uh, you don't want to
Zach Bitter (1:21:20.640)
beat yourself up so much any one day that you can't get out and do it the next one. That's the
Zach Bitter (1:21:24.480)
sweet spot with maximum heroic function is the, the, the trademark there is that you,
Zach Bitter (1:21:30.240)
you can keep going and keep doing it again and again and again, because as long as you're not,
Zach Bitter (1:21:35.680)
you know, going out one day and trying to do twice as much as what you're ready for, for that
Zach Bitter (1:21:39.040)
one specific, the key for you is going to be picking the right starting point and then building
Zach Bitter (1:21:43.040)
from there on what that day kind of entails in terms of how much running you do. So, um,
Zach Bitter (1:21:50.560)
where you could maybe get creative would be if you decided that it's a hard, fast rule that you run
Zach Bitter (1:21:56.480)
an hour every day, seven days a week. But we find out that to run your maximum robot function means
Zach Bitter (1:22:02.720)
you probably are better off sticking to 30 minutes. Then what you would maybe do is you would run
Zach Bitter (1:22:07.920)
underneath your maximum aerobic function for the first 15 minutes in the last 15 minutes,
Zach Bitter (1:22:13.440)
maybe throw some of those strides in there if you want to do that at the very end. Uh, and then that
Zach Bitter (1:22:17.360)
middle 30 minutes is going to be maximum road function target. And then maybe after, you know,
Zach Bitter (1:22:23.120)
four weeks, you start noticing, you know what, this 30 minutes isn't wearing me out near as much as
Zach Bitter (1:22:27.280)
it used to. Um, I feel like I could easily push past that. Well, let's up that to 40 minutes. So
Zach Bitter (1:22:31.520)
that 60, you're always staying within that 60 minute parameter that keeps your, your schedule
Zach Bitter (1:22:35.760)
consistent, your routine consistent. I'm wearing a heart rate monitor to sort of as I run to monitor
Zach Bitter (1:22:41.120)
it. Sure. You could do that. You could go perceived effort. Um, I like to use them in tandem in the
Zach Bitter (1:22:47.280)
sense that like early on, I'll maybe look at my heart rate a little more often, especially for
Zach Bitter (1:22:52.240)
shorter length. There is heart rate can get messy the longer you go. So I, I end up kind of maybe
Zach Bitter (1:22:58.480)
stepping away from heart rate a little more than some will at a certain point because I'm ultimately
Zach Bitter (1:23:03.680)
I'm going to be usually training or working with someone to run like, you know, a race that's really
Zach Bitter (1:23:07.840)
long and they get cardiac drift, dehydration, heat and things that are going to make the heart rate
Zach Bitter (1:23:12.560)
super messy. Yeah. But you're probably your ability to measure perceived effort is exceptionally good.
Zach Bitter (1:23:18.240)
Mine is actually really weak. Okay. Heart rate then I need to do the, still the work of connecting
Zach Bitter (1:23:22.240)
heart rate to the perceived effort. Yep. And that's exactly what I would use heart rate for then. And
Zach Bitter (1:23:26.640)
you'll get to a point probably by like in the first couple of months where you, you can still
Zach Bitter (1:23:32.320)
lean on heart rate if you want, but it'll be kind of one of those things where you keep
Zach Bitter (1:23:36.080)
looking at, you're like, Oh wow, I can guess it. And you play a game with yourself too. And you
Zach Bitter (1:23:39.440)
say, well, how close can I guess? You'll get it. So like for me, what I'll do is I'll do the run
Lex Fridman (1:23:44.560)
and then I'll look at the heart rate afterwards and be like, Oh cool. I was right there. Or I
Zach Bitter (1:23:47.840)
remember feeling like I was speeding up a little bit there and their show is right there on the
Zach Bitter (1:23:51.200)
heart rate or. I also love sort of something we haven't talked about. I love pushups and pull ups
Zach Bitter (1:23:56.960)
of like body weight workouts. Again, it's mostly mental. I just enjoy the mental challenge of it.
Zach Bitter (1:24:02.320)
I also like, it makes me feel like if all I'm doing is running, it makes me feel I'm not like.
Lex Fridman (1:24:09.920)
One dimensional.
Zach Bitter (1:24:10.880)
Yeah. One dimensional. I mean, there's some aspect to running that's not to be like hippie
Zach Bitter (1:24:16.640)
about it, but like, you know, you're, you're with nature, you're running in the, it's like,
Zach Bitter (1:24:20.880)
we're born to do this thing. And that same way, I feel like when I'm doing pushups and pull ups,
Zach Bitter (1:24:25.840)
I feel like I was born to do that kind of stuff. Like it's like this body weight exercise that
Zach Bitter (1:24:30.960)
is, body weight exercises have that way about them. It's, it doesn't have that dumbbell feel
Zach Bitter (1:24:36.320)
or doing bench press or squats, squats with weight. When you're just doing squats,
Zach Bitter (1:24:42.720)
body weight, we do pushups and pull ups, body weight, even just basic ab stuff, core stuff,
Zach Bitter (1:24:47.920)
body weight. I don't know. I just love the way I feel doing that. So it's usually,
Zach Bitter (1:24:52.240)
I forgot to mention that part. I combine that with the running afterwards,
Lex Fridman (1:24:55.520)
doing some basic body weight stuff.
Zach Bitter (1:24:57.120)
Yeah. And I think like you're going to get from, if we're not looking at it from like specifically,
Zach Bitter (1:25:02.160)
like training at a pace in order to get both the skeletal muscle adaptations, as well as the
Zach Bitter (1:25:09.360)
cardiovascular benefits, you're probably tapping into some of the higher intensity stuff with that
Lex Fridman (1:25:13.520)
body weight. So this, and unless you're doing, I guess no rest. Okay. So is it,
Zach Bitter (1:25:19.120)
you get pretty high heart rate from that. Yeah. Very hard. Okay. Higher than running. Yep.
Lex Fridman (1:25:23.280)
So you're checking that box there from just like a lifestyle, enjoyment, fitness,
Zach Bitter (1:25:28.960)
overall fitness standpoint. I think you want to keep your running more aerobic then because
Zach Bitter (1:25:34.240)
you're getting that and you're probably getting it from like your grappling workouts too,
Zach Bitter (1:25:37.920)
I would guess. So there's just not as big of a need for you from a big picture standpoint to be
Zach Bitter (1:25:44.720)
doubling down on that stuff with your runs as well. And it sounds like you prefer not to.
Lex Fridman (1:25:50.480)
Yeah. That's right. So I mean, what about the distance of marathon versus a hundred miles?
Zach Bitter (1:25:57.280)
Is that a big difference? What's a good goal to work towards? Is it marathon and the rest of it
Zach Bitter (1:26:03.760)
just takes care of itself? Yeah. So you want to do a marathon and then ultimately do a
Zach Bitter (1:26:08.880)
hundred mile after that? Is that what you're saying? I have no idea what the guy. Oh, so he's
Zach Bitter (1:26:13.680)
going to tell you spot on what you're doing. So you have to be ready for anything. For anything.
Zach Bitter (1:26:17.360)
Right. My own personal goal is to feel somewhat challenged, but comfortable running a marathon.
Zach Bitter (1:26:24.320)
The longest I've ever run is 22 miles, but there's been many stretches of my life where I would
Zach Bitter (1:26:30.320)
regularly run. Like the long run would be close to 20 miles. And then I was comfortably running 10
Zach Bitter (1:26:37.120)
miles four months ago. Feels like forever ago. Until I injured myself a little bit by running
Zach Bitter (1:26:44.800)
in the snow and stubbing my toe to where it was like, you don't realize how much you appreciate
Zach Bitter (1:26:49.680)
your toes until you stub them. That big toes where all that power comes off. And so it was surprising
Lex Fridman (1:26:57.360)
how long it took to heal and how essential it was and how unpleasant running, how much I hated
Zach Bitter (1:27:03.200)
running with it. And then I kept like coming, trying to get back out there to run to think,
Zach Bitter (1:27:07.840)
I think it's okay. And no, it's not okay. You really need to let it fully heal. At least that
Zach Bitter (1:27:13.120)
was my experience. I couldn't like just suck it up. It was making it worse every time. And one of
Zach Bitter (1:27:17.600)
those injuries that could really feel, even though it's so small, but it's essential. So is there any
Zach Bitter (1:27:23.440)
difference between the goal of marathon or a hundred miles? Would you say, should I be prepping
Zach Bitter (1:27:28.720)
for a hundred miles if that's at all a possibility? The big difference is going to be like you're
Zach Bitter (1:27:33.520)
dropping intensity significantly by going up to a hundred miles versus the marathon. So
Zach Bitter (1:27:38.640)
the maximum aerobic function I think is actually going to feed into that maybe a little bit better.
Zach Bitter (1:27:42.400)
It's probably gonna be a little closer. It all varies a bit because people will focus on specific
Zach Bitter (1:27:49.920)
distances and they'll get very efficient and very adapted to that. So it's what makes running kind
Zach Bitter (1:27:58.160)
of messy where you'll get, for example, the average person can hit their lactate threshold
Zach Bitter (1:28:04.480)
for probably about 60 minutes or something like that. Whereas you get these elite marathoners
Zach Bitter (1:28:08.400)
who've been basically spending their entire life preparing for a marathon race. They can push
Zach Bitter (1:28:13.440)
almost up to their lactate threshold and after lactate threshold for almost like two hours.
Lex Fridman (1:28:18.080)
So it gets a little messy when you start looking at it from that lens, but you're,
Zach Bitter (1:28:23.520)
you don't really have to worry about that too much because you're not really focusing on being
Zach Bitter (1:28:27.120)
the best possible hundred mile or the best possible marathon. Or you could be, you want
Zach Bitter (1:28:31.280)
enough overall fitness that you can just do either one of them without absolute misery because you
Zach Bitter (1:28:36.320)
did the couch to a hundred miles. So I think like for a hundred miles, the biggest difference I think
Zach Bitter (1:28:42.400)
given your context is just like the more physical things you are doing, the better prepared you're
Zach Bitter (1:28:47.040)
going to be for the hundred mile. So it's almost given your context. I wouldn't say irrelevant.
Zach Bitter (1:28:53.200)
You want to be doing running, but you're going to be doing that. Once you put it in your program,
Zach Bitter (1:28:56.320)
it sounds like it's going to be pretty locked in. If you view it this way, it's probably going to
Zach Bitter (1:29:04.800)
be more mentally beneficial to where, Hey, today I did my run. I did my body weight exercises. I
Zach Bitter (1:29:10.800)
did some grappling practice. You know, I spent three hours working out today. If you think of
Zach Bitter (1:29:16.000)
it like that, then you know, you're, you're moving your body, you're doing things that are active for
Zach Bitter (1:29:21.760)
a good chunk of the day, especially relative to most people. So that's going to actually be very
Zach Bitter (1:29:27.120)
helpful for you. Uh, the, the problem or the, the, the battle to get over is going to just be like
Zach Bitter (1:29:32.560)
the, you know, you're going to break down physically running a hundred miles and you're
Zach Bitter (1:29:37.040)
gonna break down physically running a marathon too. So like the, you might just have to push
Zach Bitter (1:29:42.560)
through a little more discomfort, like from a physical standpoint compared to be a few decided
Zach Bitter (1:29:47.040)
I'm gonna do everything I can in these next like 24 weeks to be able to run a, a full hundred,
Zach Bitter (1:29:54.160)
a hundred miler. Would you say it's physical or is it mental discomfort? Like, uh, I mean,
Zach Bitter (1:30:00.400)
isn't everything physically uncomfortable? Like what, uh, do you train for if you're training for
Zach Bitter (1:30:06.800)
the chaos of, uh, so it's not necessarily the hundred miles. It's the chaos of the unexpected,
Zach Bitter (1:30:11.120)
which might include a hundred miles, but it might also include a thousand pushups in my case. So
Zach Bitter (1:30:15.840)
like, you need a bit jack of all trades is what you need to be. But also like building up the
Zach Bitter (1:30:19.680)
confidence or maybe not. I don't know. How do you survive a thousand pushups? It's combination of
Zach Bitter (1:30:27.200)
confidence that you have to know that you can do that kind of thing. Not necessarily the actual
Zach Bitter (1:30:32.240)
number, but like doing crazy stuff. And the, the second is probably the base strength and endurance
Lex Fridman (1:30:43.120)
and also just the practicing that process of not quitting. I feel like that's one of the things I
Zach Bitter (1:30:49.360)
really need to do in the running space is like doing slightly unpleasant things where I'm
Zach Bitter (1:30:53.840)
yeah, practicing that, like bringing my mind back and saying, Nope, uh, I'm going to keep doing it.
Lex Fridman (1:30:59.840)
And part of the running every day has that benefit because some days you really don't want to feel,
Zach Bitter (1:31:04.880)
don't feel like running and doing that. Then you're practicing that muscle of,
Zach Bitter (1:31:08.480)
um, of doing it anyway. Um, I don't know if there's something you can say in terms of advice,
Lex Fridman (1:31:14.400)
how to practice the, like doing something unpleasant every day frequently. Yeah. What
Zach Bitter (1:31:21.040)
I would do with that is I would try to make the unpleasant thing be different from one day to the
Zach Bitter (1:31:27.840)
next if you can. So the fear I would have with making running unpleasant every time would be,
Zach Bitter (1:31:35.200)
it becomes like a negative feedback loop in your physiologically potentially as well as mentally,
Zach Bitter (1:31:41.760)
where if the entire running process is miserable, you're going to be miserable when you step on that
Zach Bitter (1:31:48.000)
starting line, whether it's a marathon or a hundred miles. So you've trained yourself that
Zach Bitter (1:31:51.920)
running equals miserable. Well, and here's the thing. Like if you look at just like,
Zach Bitter (1:31:56.240)
here's where the literature says on paper are like the dozen workouts you should do in a training
Zach Bitter (1:32:01.840)
plan. And this is how you should structure them right down to the minute. And you just say,
Zach Bitter (1:32:06.240)
like, I'm going to give everyone this schedule and they're going to do this every time rinse
Lex Fridman (1:32:10.320)
and repeat. My biggest concern with that approach is you are potentially putting them in a position
Zach Bitter (1:32:16.800)
where the training is so boring and so monotonous that like if they hit a roadblock mentally,
Zach Bitter (1:32:23.600)
they're going to fall apart very quick because they've already exhausted themselves mentally,
Zach Bitter (1:32:27.360)
just trying to do the same old interval every time doing the same old workout. And it doesn't
Zach Bitter (1:32:32.400)
necessarily have to be like one specific plan in its entirety could just be like,
Zach Bitter (1:32:37.520)
like the, the mix of things within it. So like, rather than like, if I just said, do,
Zach Bitter (1:32:41.840)
oh, we're going to do three minute intervals, this entire short interval process or two minute
Zach Bitter (1:32:46.000)
intervals or four minute intervals or 62nd intervals, you know, by that sixth week,
Zach Bitter (1:32:51.360)
they might be so sick of that, that they're not actually maximizing their potential within that
Zach Bitter (1:32:54.960)
because there's no flavor there. And, and then they're also actually getting less out of themselves
Zach Bitter (1:32:59.680)
than they would if we just got a little more creative and said, okay, let's mix this up and
Zach Bitter (1:33:03.680)
let's do, uh, you know, for one minute intervals, then take a little bit of a break and then we'll
Zach Bitter (1:33:09.120)
do three minute intervals or at least changing it up from week to week so that they have something
Zach Bitter (1:33:12.800)
different showing up, even though we're addressing the same kind of physiological adaptation.
Zach Bitter (1:33:17.040)
Uh, so like, I think what you want to do is you want to introduce the misery. You want to be able
Zach Bitter (1:33:22.240)
to test yourself to the degree where like, when you can recognize these points of, I don't want
Zach Bitter (1:33:26.240)
to be here, but I can do it and push through it, but recognize that like, there's not necessarily
Zach Bitter (1:33:33.360)
going to be one event that you want to lean on to get that from because you won't want to make that
Zach Bitter (1:33:37.360)
one event so miserable that you don't want to do it when it comes time for the challenge. So
Zach Bitter (1:33:41.440)
if you can possibly say like, okay, on Tuesdays, the pushup workout, I'm going to go 10 pushups
Zach Bitter (1:33:48.480)
more than I want to. I'm going to get to that point where I'm like, there's no more. And then
Zach Bitter (1:33:51.520)
I'm going to do 10 more and you're going to make that one miserable. And then maybe on, uh, you
Zach Bitter (1:33:56.320)
know, Thursdays you decide to do like some of those sprints or something at the end where
Zach Bitter (1:34:01.680)
you do a few of them and you're like, okay, this is where I'd be comfortable to stop. Like, well,
Zach Bitter (1:34:05.040)
I'm going to do two more of them because I know I don't want to do two more of them,
Zach Bitter (1:34:07.280)
um, but mix that up. So you're not, so at least you're getting enjoyment from some of it and not
Zach Bitter (1:34:12.800)
just getting complete disgust from the entire process. There's actually quite a lot of ways
Zach Bitter (1:34:17.840)
that I can introduce misery into the running, get creative, including, um, you know, even just like
Zach Bitter (1:34:23.840)
stuff outside of the running, like taking a freezing cold showers, those kinds of things,
Zach Bitter (1:34:27.280)
just introducing random kind of chaos into the, into the system, um, or having conversations with
Zach Bitter (1:34:33.760)
people as an introvert. It's terrifying. More podcasts. So, um, now starting, uh, the training
Zach Bitter (1:34:43.200)
and, uh, Zach, you've been kind enough to also kind of, um, be willing to help me out throughout
Zach Bitter (1:34:48.560)
this process. So I look forward to where that goes. It's kind of, uh, fascinating. Um, on the
Zach Bitter (1:34:53.520)
diet side, you're, uh, one of, one of the many things that, uh, make you fascinating is, uh,
Zach Bitter (1:35:00.640)
you've played with diet as well and you're, um, somewhat famous, I would say, for doing low carb
Zach Bitter (1:35:06.000)
or playing with low carb or meat based diets. Can you describe the potential, like how you're
Zach Bitter (1:35:11.360)
thinking about that has evolved and the potential beneficial role of a carnivore diet or keto diet
Zach Bitter (1:35:17.760)
or a meat based diet in training as an ultra marathon runner? Yeah. And I think like where
Zach Bitter (1:35:22.400)
a lot of times things get confusing for people here is the context of it too, where it's like,
Zach Bitter (1:35:26.720)
they want an answer as to what do I eat for endurance sport? And it's like, well, endurance
Zach Bitter (1:35:32.320)
sport is quite wide ranging as we've talked about many, many times here. So there's going to be
Zach Bitter (1:35:36.720)
differences, I think, in just like what you want to maybe necessarily prioritize, uh, both for the
Zach Bitter (1:35:42.640)
event you're doing and the intensity that's required for it, the training that's required
Zach Bitter (1:35:46.400)
for that event. And then also the individual component too, where I think this one often
Zach Bitter (1:35:50.080)
gets overlooked, where we tend to say like, well, we've got all these Olympic medalists
Zach Bitter (1:35:55.840)
at the marathon and below distance who are, you know, eating a moderate to high carbohydrate diet.
Lex Fridman (1:36:01.920)
So everyone needs to do that if they want to reach their potential in, you know,
Zach Bitter (1:36:06.400)
say the three K to the marathon. And, you know, in a perfect world, maybe that would be true,
Lex Fridman (1:36:12.400)
but there's a lot of other variables that often get forgotten then that could positively or
Zach Bitter (1:36:17.520)
negatively impact that decision choice. So I think Dr. Jeff Volk has done a great job of kind of
Zach Bitter (1:36:22.560)
highlighting this in the sense that, you know, when he works with people, he works with people
Zach Bitter (1:36:26.320)
in the health sphere as well as the performance sphere. And, you know, he's one of the main guys
Zach Bitter (1:36:30.560)
at Virta health who's, uh, they've got like a 60% success rate with working with folks with the
Zach Bitter (1:36:36.160)
type two diabetes to, um, reverse their type two diabetes. Uh, and I mean, that's an astounding,
Zach Bitter (1:36:42.960)
when you, when you think of just any nutritional protocol, its success rate, they're all incredibly
Zach Bitter (1:36:47.200)
low. They're very, very low. And the big difference with his is the coaching aspect of it. Like the
Zach Bitter (1:36:52.480)
give support. So these people like have someone to turn to when they make a mistake, or if they're
Zach Bitter (1:36:56.320)
thinking about doing something differently, or they don't know what to do rather than just kind
Zach Bitter (1:37:00.160)
of throwing, throwing it all up in the air and quitting. They, they, they have a resource there.
Lex Fridman (1:37:04.560)
And that's probably a big reason why that's the success rate that they have with that,
Zach Bitter (1:37:07.520)
is they put those support mechanisms in place. That picture needs to be carried into the
Zach Bitter (1:37:12.720)
performance world or the running world too, where, you know, we may have just been identifying
Zach Bitter (1:37:18.080)
that, uh, you know, Olympic distance athletes that can tolerate a very large portion of their diet
Zach Bitter (1:37:26.160)
coming from carbohydrate is going to just, it's going to filter those ones towards the Olympics
Zach Bitter (1:37:31.920)
filter those towards interesting. Yeah. And that doesn't mean that like, uh, if we would have taken
Zach Bitter (1:37:38.320)
say the gold medals in the five came, put them on a low carb diet, they'd run faster. They probably
Zach Bitter (1:37:42.240)
wouldn't, because we may have already selected that that person's thriving on carbohydrate.
Zach Bitter (1:37:45.840)
Uh, what I would be interested in is like, you have, let's say we have someone with equal talent,
Lex Fridman (1:37:50.640)
but got weeded out along the way potentially because for whatever reason, they just weren't
Zach Bitter (1:37:56.400)
able to tolerate like the, both the training and the nutrition requirements that they're being told
Zach Bitter (1:38:00.240)
to do. So the coaches can, there's a culture where the coaches would really push a carb heavy diet
Lex Fridman (1:38:04.560)
and that that would in itself would do the filtering process of people that are not,
Zach Bitter (1:38:11.600)
it would filter out the people that are not able to tolerate carbs as part of their training.
Zach Bitter (1:38:16.160)
I mean, I might be an example of this actually where, you know, you take someone where, uh,
Zach Bitter (1:38:20.880)
they, for whatever reason, the carbs aren't working for them. Like it's unsustainable for them to
Zach Bitter (1:38:24.560)
continue that path. Or if they do, they might have a shortened career, so they might be able to eke
Zach Bitter (1:38:27.920)
out a few really good years, but then, you know, they're not going to be the person they're like,
Zach Bitter (1:38:30.560)
wow, that person's 38 and they're still competing at the Olympics type of a person. Uh, and, you
Zach Bitter (1:38:36.080)
know, you, you, you put them on a low carb diet, uh, if you can control everything else, like their
Zach Bitter (1:38:41.760)
entire lifestyle is based around training and racing, then, uh, you know, they may still have
Zach Bitter (1:38:49.120)
better potential by introducing carbohydrates at a higher level. But if that's not going to,
Lex Fridman (1:38:55.760)
if that's not going to be sustainable for them as a person, then, you know,
Zach Bitter (1:38:59.920)
what's the point kind of at that, unless they want to be like a kind of a spark in the pan,
Lex Fridman (1:39:04.800)
so to speak. I just feel good eating meat performance wise. Well, I think there's that
Zach Bitter (1:39:09.680)
group too. And they may just not be the Olympians. Yeah. And so we're not talking,
Zach Bitter (1:39:15.440)
I guess this conversation has several layers. One is for the Olympics and one is for like,
Lex Fridman (1:39:22.000)
what is it? Active athletes that are like amateurs, whatever, whatever category I
Zach Bitter (1:39:28.000)
put myself into, like people that exercise regularly. And then, um, maybe people,
Lex Fridman (1:39:33.760)
and then there's people who like exercise rarely. So on all of those fronts, I mean,
Lex Fridman (1:39:40.560)
do you think it's possible to live a happy, uh, active life eating meat only or mostly meat?
Zach Bitter (1:39:48.400)
Yeah. What have you learned about this? Yeah. I think, uh, so for, for some context,
Zach Bitter (1:39:52.560)
like I followed what I would call a low carbohydrate diet for the last 10 years.
Lex Fridman (1:39:56.720)
And just like kind of the training, I periodize it to a degree where there are parts of my training
Zach Bitter (1:40:01.840)
where I do bring back a little more carbohydrate. And there's periods of my training, especially
Zach Bitter (1:40:05.600)
like the off season where I'm like very low and I might be like kind of in that ballpark of, uh,
Zach Bitter (1:40:09.920)
like, you know, ketogenic, strict ketogenic or no carbohydrates for, for periods of time.
Lex Fridman (1:40:14.800)
And what kind of food are we talking about? What's a strict low carb diet?
Zach Bitter (1:40:18.880)
I've ranged everywhere from like mostly plant based, low carb keto to like mostly animal based.
Zach Bitter (1:40:23.760)
I very rarely gone much more than like two weeks strict where it's like I'm strict carnivore or
Zach Bitter (1:40:30.640)
strict plant based or anything like that. Like we're talking probably more like 95%
Zach Bitter (1:40:35.440)
at the, at the peak. Um, in terms of any type of like, like longer lasting, uh, from my personal
Zach Bitter (1:40:42.320)
experience of like being like either in like the animal food camp or her, like the plant based camp
Zach Bitter (1:40:47.440)
kind of a, of a process. Um, so I've tried all of them, things that stayed consistent over the 10
Zach Bitter (1:40:52.480)
years as a kind of the macro nutrient profile that I've done throughout the course. So one
Zach Bitter (1:40:56.400)
didn't win over the other in terms of meat based versus plant based. Oh, for me, meat based,
Zach Bitter (1:41:00.000)
definitely. What was, I mean, I was, I was my highest meat consumption in 2019 and that was
Zach Bitter (1:41:04.640)
by far my best racing season. Yeah. We keep, we keep coming back to that year. That was a good
Zach Bitter (1:41:08.960)
year for many reasons, philosophically and nutritionally. Yeah. Well in 2020 happened and
Zach Bitter (1:41:13.200)
now I haven't had a really good chance to, to, uh, to improve. We'll see. Hopefully I've got some
Zach Bitter (1:41:18.400)
more, some more in the tank. That's strange. There's so most athletes that compete at your level
Zach Bitter (1:41:23.520)
have more carbs integrated into their diets. So what have you learned about using meat in a high
Zach Bitter (1:41:29.920)
performance? I think it's maybe less about the meat and it's more about like, what are you,
Lex Fridman (1:41:35.200)
what is it replacing? So if we go, if we step away from like me specifically and just like the people
Zach Bitter (1:41:43.680)
that, cause I mean, we're getting to the point where I get it's anecdotes, but like, like that's
Lex Fridman (1:41:47.280)
what we have at the moment. Cause there's, I mean, there is actually a study being done on, like,
Zach Bitter (1:41:51.040)
I think I guess they'd call it hypercarnivore where they're like, I think above 80% of their
Zach Bitter (1:41:55.600)
intake from meat. Um, and they're looking at a few different things there, but it's so weird
Lex Fridman (1:42:01.040)
and I keep interrupting, but it's so weird that it sounds unhealthy, uh, hypercarnivore. Yeah. But
Zach Bitter (1:42:07.280)
it makes me feel really good. So I, that's the individual thing, right? There's countless people
Zach Bitter (1:42:14.080)
now who like, and I'm not saying that they could not have found another route, myself included,
Zach Bitter (1:42:19.600)
like in 2011, when I switched from moderate to high carbohydrate to low carbohydrate and saw some
Zach Bitter (1:42:24.880)
very noticeable differences in the way I felt, the way I performed in all this stuff, that doesn't
Zach Bitter (1:42:30.720)
mean that there wasn't another path. I just did not find that path. And the, the, the fact that
Zach Bitter (1:42:38.080)
I found a path that was producing the results I was looking for is really all that matters in my
Zach Bitter (1:42:42.320)
mind. You know, like I don't really care if there was a parallel path that works just as well or,
Zach Bitter (1:42:46.880)
you know, something like that, because ultimately we only have one shot at everything we're doing.
Lex Fridman (1:42:52.480)
So like, it'd be great if I could go back and try four or five different things. Well,
Zach Bitter (1:42:55.840)
the annoying thing is that the body adjusts to whatever the heck you're doing. So you can't,
Zach Bitter (1:43:00.640)
it's hard to do good science even on yourself. Yeah. I've referenced my 2019 racing season a few
Zach Bitter (1:43:04.880)
times and it's like, it'd be silly for me to put all of the emphasis on my nutrition plan for that,
Zach Bitter (1:43:09.360)
because it's also comes with two decades of endurance training. So it's possible and it's
Zach Bitter (1:43:14.640)
it's possible. And it's very likely that a huge portion of that success was just the culmination
Zach Bitter (1:43:19.040)
of a lot of work over time from the training side of things. I just think like anytime you hyper
Zach Bitter (1:43:23.920)
focus on one area or pick a couple of variables and just target those, you find yourself in a
Zach Bitter (1:43:29.680)
position where you are, you're putting other things in the most uncharitable light possible.
Zach Bitter (1:43:35.440)
So, so then you have this situation where like, it's actually a combination of a variety of
Zach Bitter (1:43:40.160)
different things. So where are the big movers? And you know, for me, nutritional shift was pretty
Zach Bitter (1:43:45.600)
clear that that improved my sleep and my recovery. And I mean, people can say, well, there's the
Zach Bitter (1:43:51.600)
placebo effect, which is a very real concern. But you know, for me personally, a 10 year placebo
Zach Bitter (1:43:56.800)
effect would be a quite lengthy placebo effect. And I do think it's individual, though I emphasize
Zach Bitter (1:44:03.120)
that a lot because I mean, I've worked with tons of people with this and I do see a range from
Zach Bitter (1:44:07.440)
person to person. I've worked with people who come to me and they're like strict keto and we raise up
Zach Bitter (1:44:13.360)
their carbohydrates a bit. And they're like, okay, I feel way better doing it this way. And I've worked
Zach Bitter (1:44:18.320)
with people who they come to me moderate carbohydrate, but they're interested enough.
Zach Bitter (1:44:23.200)
They want to try a lower carb. So we, you know, we titrate them down and I've had clients where
Zach Bitter (1:44:28.080)
I'm like, okay, I'm gonna give them this workout. And they're gonna wish they brought back a little
Zach Bitter (1:44:32.080)
bit of carbohydrate. And then they go and they nail the workout. And I'm just like baffled that
Zach Bitter (1:44:36.400)
because because they're different from me. And every time, you know, when you have your own
Zach Bitter (1:44:39.440)
personal experience, the first guttural response is, oh, if I had done it, it would have gone this
Zach Bitter (1:44:45.280)
way. Why did it go the complete opposite way for them? And you kind of have to just kind of step
Zach Bitter (1:44:48.960)
out of your own perspective a bit and say like, okay, well they're different, you know, for
Zach Bitter (1:44:53.600)
whatever reason they're getting, getting along like this. I've had like several moments in my
Zach Bitter (1:44:58.720)
life where you kind of realize the body is weird and it's weirder than the average advice. Like
Zach Bitter (1:45:04.880)
one of them is how well I perform for my own standards when I fast. First of all, intellectually,
Lex Fridman (1:45:12.960)
but that's more known and understandable. But like physically, the fact that I could train,
Zach Bitter (1:45:18.880)
like not eat 20 hours, 24 hours, and then do a hard like jiu jitsu session for like two hours,
Zach Bitter (1:45:26.800)
like hard. It's incredible to me. Like this makes no sense. Cause I used to eat like many times a
Zach Bitter (1:45:33.040)
day. Of course you have to eat, like you don't want to eat too close to the training session
Zach Bitter (1:45:37.280)
was my thinking, but you definitely need to load up on carbs like three hours before they can,
Zach Bitter (1:45:41.760)
in order to have enough energy. The fact that I could not eat and have like incredible focus,
Lex Fridman (1:45:47.680)
but also athleticism, like both endurance and explosive. I mean, jiu jitsu is a special thing.
Zach Bitter (1:45:54.240)
It's like more like chess. It's not like powerlifting, no, not powerlifting, Olympic
Zach Bitter (1:45:58.560)
lifting, where it's like true explosiveness, but that's fascinating. And it makes me wonder like,
Lex Fridman (1:46:04.000)
what other things are there to discover about yourself? The annoying thing about food is it's
Zach Bitter (1:46:11.040)
delicious. And so it's hard to do good science on yourself, like to do, you know, for two weeks or
Zach Bitter (1:46:17.760)
a month to do like strict no carbs. And then maybe next month you add 20 grams or 40 grams of carbs
Lex Fridman (1:46:25.520)
and see how you actually feel. Not like in that moment, but over a period of several weeks and
Zach Bitter (1:46:31.040)
then doing everything else right with based on best available science, like with electrolytes
Lex Fridman (1:46:36.800)
and then vitamins, but then also like remove all the humans from your life that affect you
Zach Bitter (1:46:41.600)
positively or negatively. Cause you might feel amazing because you're hanging out with cool
Zach Bitter (1:46:45.760)
people and then, you know, like removing basically all the variables. It's kind of fascinating. And
Zach Bitter (1:46:51.680)
you kind of, all of us land in a place where we find something that worked for us. And then we
Zach Bitter (1:46:57.200)
maybe use some of the placebo effect to help us out, to stick in that place. And then I suppose
Zach Bitter (1:47:03.360)
that's the way to live life. I guess it's impossible to find the optimal for any of us,
Lex Fridman (1:47:07.760)
but carnivore is an interesting new kind of caveat, a new challenge to the nutritional community,
Lex Fridman (1:47:16.240)
because more and more people seem to be doing well under carnivore.
Zach Bitter (1:47:19.920)
Yeah. Well, the nutrition community is probably like, we just got done like dealing with the
Zach Bitter (1:47:24.320)
vegans and now we got this opposite end of the spectrum coming at us. But I think, well, I mean,
Lex Fridman (1:47:28.720)
what this all tells, what this all tells me is like, there is a, for one, like in our food
Zach Bitter (1:47:35.920)
environment, like the failure rate of any one approach at a population level is going to be
Zach Bitter (1:47:41.440)
incredibly high. I mean, it's why we have, you know, what is it like 88% of the population has
Zach Bitter (1:47:46.560)
some sort of like metabolic syndrome. And it's, it's like, you know, it's because there's an
Zach Bitter (1:47:50.800)
endless quantity of everything that you can get your hands on for relatively cheap. And I think
Zach Bitter (1:47:56.240)
that's, that, that presents a problem. If your mindset is going to be, we need this set of
Zach Bitter (1:48:02.480)
parameters for nutrition and everyone needs to adhere to that or you're wrong. And it's like,
Zach Bitter (1:48:07.760)
well tell that to the person who like went carnivore and cleared up some like crazy skin
Zach Bitter (1:48:13.280)
ailment or something like that. That's a weird one. Like where the carnivore seems to treat like,
Zach Bitter (1:48:19.520)
like depression, like mental stuff. It's fascinating. There's all these stories. Again,
Zach Bitter (1:48:25.200)
it's anecdotes, but it's like the mental one, I think may, I'm stepping out a bit on a limb here,
Lex Fridman (1:48:31.440)
but I want to say like some of the research of Dominic DiAgostino and Jeff Volokh was looking at
Zach Bitter (1:48:37.360)
the ketogenic diet, which of carnivore diet is basically going to be a part of a ketogenic. I
Zach Bitter (1:48:43.520)
mean, you could always go like way too high on the protein, I guess, but most people that I see
Zach Bitter (1:48:48.560)
doing carnivore, they're cognizant enough that at least if they're doing it for therapeutic reasons,
Zach Bitter (1:48:54.320)
they're not going like, you know, 50% protein, 50%. They're more like 70, 30, 80, 20, something
Zach Bitter (1:49:00.240)
like that. And, and I think like you, you do see some, some work with like the brain. So the mental
Zach Bitter (1:49:07.440)
stuff, I know some of the, I'm not sure if this was part of the DARPA funding that, that Dr.
Zach Bitter (1:49:13.440)
Dominic DiAgostino had where they were looking at things like mental stuff, like post traumatic
Zach Bitter (1:49:18.240)
stress disorder and that sort of stuff with, with like a strict ketogenic diet. So I wonder if some
Zach Bitter (1:49:22.720)
of that, like the depression related stuff has to do with that, where now like their body is just
Zach Bitter (1:49:26.960)
fueling their brain differently than maybe they were in the past, but that's just, you know,
Zach Bitter (1:49:31.600)
wild guesses on my part. And I'm deviating from the conversation, but like, no, that's brilliant.
Zach Bitter (1:49:36.800)
In terms of your own story on food, can you say something? I think we were kind of referring to
Zach Bitter (1:49:42.800)
diet broadly. Can you say something about how you like to fuel your like, whether it's race or great
Zach Bitter (1:49:50.560)
training sessions, like maybe the day before, let's go even that far during, and maybe a few
Zach Bitter (1:49:58.400)
hours after. Okay. It'll be a little different for racing than it will be for like a big workout,
Zach Bitter (1:50:04.480)
just because the interesting thing about ultra running is just like, you never do the race even
Zach Bitter (1:50:08.400)
like most endurance races, you're going to cover the distance. You're going to replicate the race
Zach Bitter (1:50:11.600)
almost up to it in training. Whereas with a hundred miles, you can't, you might replicate a
Zach Bitter (1:50:16.880)
third of it. So, so I'll do, I'll walk you through kind of my approach for, for like a hundred mile
Zach Bitter (1:50:21.680)
race. And I can tell you maybe what I would do differently on like a training day. But yeah, so
Zach Bitter (1:50:26.480)
for where, where the community is an agreement is that you do want to be very good at burning fat
Zach Bitter (1:50:33.200)
for ultra marathons. I mean, there's just like the intensity is low. If your, if your ratios are
Zach Bitter (1:50:38.400)
skewed very high towards carbohydrate metabolism, then you're going to have to defend your muscle
Zach Bitter (1:50:47.040)
glycogen through tons of carbohydrate consumption. And that's just going to be very hard to do over
Zach Bitter (1:50:52.320)
the course of an entire day, even at low intensities. So it's a fuel tank thing. I mean,
Zach Bitter (1:50:56.960)
it's like your, your leanest endurance athletes have way more fat than they do. Glycogen stores.
Zach Bitter (1:51:01.360)
When you're doing the low intensity performance, you want to be burning high levels of fat and
Zach Bitter (1:51:05.120)
sparing that muscle glycogen. What I tend to do is I want to start the race burning really high
Zach Bitter (1:51:11.200)
levels of fat. So I'm going to, I'll maybe have some carbohydrate the night before for dinner,
Lex Fridman (1:51:15.520)
but then I'm going to lean into the overnight fast breakfast the morning of I'm going to stay
Zach Bitter (1:51:20.400)
away from carbohydrates for a hundred mile or anyway. And I'm going to have something like
Zach Bitter (1:51:25.280)
something that's pretty like a high energy, low volume. So like I'll do like an S fuels, a life
Zach Bitter (1:51:33.040)
bar. They've got like, what's in an S fuel life bar? Are we talking about carbs or we're talking
Zach Bitter (1:51:38.480)
about protein fat and protein? Yeah. Fat protein bar. And then they make some awesome. Yeah. So
Zach Bitter (1:51:45.040)
it's, it's not as low carb. Yep. Yeah. They make S fuels makes a whole product line. That's like
Zach Bitter (1:51:49.920)
kind of positioned for a low carb athlete. So they have some products on their lineup that
Zach Bitter (1:51:55.600)
offers some carbohydrate, which is perfect for me because I do introduce some carbohydrate on
Zach Bitter (1:51:59.360)
racing and some of my bigger training sessions and things, but the majority of their products are
Zach Bitter (1:52:04.720)
low carb. So like they have like, you know how you get like the powders that you put into like your
Zach Bitter (1:52:09.600)
drinks that are like high carbohydrate, you know, sports products. They make a version of that.
Zach Bitter (1:52:13.920)
That's like fat based. Oh, cool. That you can mix in with water. Yep. Cool. Yeah. So they've got
Zach Bitter (1:52:19.600)
like a creamer version and then a fruity flavored version. So you can like replicate the taste and
Zach Bitter (1:52:23.200)
the feel of drinking like a, like, you know, a sports drink. Science is awesome. I know it is.
Zach Bitter (1:52:27.600)
Well, and that's so much of it too, cause people are always like, well, I don't know. I just,
Zach Bitter (1:52:30.960)
I just like to have my Gatorade or whatever. It's like, well, you can have it now. It just,
Zach Bitter (1:52:35.280)
it won't have all that. So you can bring that kind of thing with you. Yeah. So I'm leaning
Zach Bitter (1:52:39.040)
on a lot of those like kind of liquid calories, like those low volume, high energy fat protein
Zach Bitter (1:52:45.120)
stuff the morning of so that when I start the race, my body's going to be encouraged to start
Zach Bitter (1:52:48.960)
out burning high levels of fat. Once I get going probably about 45 minutes in, I'll start introducing
Zach Bitter (1:52:55.200)
small amounts of carbohydrate. So at that point, my body's been revving pretty high fat metabolism
Lex Fridman (1:53:01.360)
and by introducing some carbohydrate in the context of the, you know, let's say my a hundred
Zach Bitter (1:53:06.880)
mile, uh, personal record, you know, I'm, I'm running approximately nine miles every hour.
Lex Fridman (1:53:12.800)
So I'm probably going through about a thousand calories in an hour's time. Uh, I'm going to
Zach Bitter (1:53:17.760)
start just like defending muscle glycogen by burning super high levels of fat at the heart
Zach Bitter (1:53:23.360)
rate I would do for that. I'm probably burning somewhere between 80, 90% fat, you know, 12 hours
Zach Bitter (1:53:28.000)
of that you can chip away at your muscle glycogen, uh, to the point where you don't necessarily want
Zach Bitter (1:53:32.400)
to go zero carb. So I'm basically just trying to defend what I know I'm going to be burning from
Zach Bitter (1:53:37.360)
the carbohydrate side of that 80 to 90% fat, 10 to 20% carbohydrate by taking in like, usually,
Zach Bitter (1:53:44.720)
you know, I've gone as low as about 15 grams of carbohydrate per hour and as high as 40 grams.
Zach Bitter (1:53:49.120)
Um, and the reality is somewhere in between is probably the sweet spot, but 40, I can get away
Zach Bitter (1:53:54.000)
without any digestion issues. So I'm not really concerned pushing up to that during a race since
Lex Fridman (1:53:59.520)
I'm only concerned about performance on that day, the carbs, the problem, or is it fiber?
Zach Bitter (1:54:05.440)
Oh, from going above 40 grams or just cause you mentioned digestion issues. Like one of the things
Zach Bitter (1:54:10.080)
for me, like one of the cool things about fatty protein protein and fat is like my stomach just
Zach Bitter (1:54:16.640)
feels way better. So like carbs introduce like bloating and just not feeling great.
Zach Bitter (1:54:22.800)
Yeah. And I think the funny thing is like, if you look at the position paper for ultra marathon
Zach Bitter (1:54:27.120)
single day events and it's, you know, it's very limited in the sense that then it's not anyone's
Zach Bitter (1:54:31.680)
fault. It's just, we don't have a lot of great research on a hundred mile race. It's really hard
Zach Bitter (1:54:34.880)
to study what's going on when someone's running a hundred miles, but they'll say moderate carbohydrate
Zach Bitter (1:54:40.000)
diet is recommended, but they'll also say that it's like something like 60% of participants are
Zach Bitter (1:54:45.280)
going to report some sort of like digestion issue during the event. So then it kind of becomes an
Zach Bitter (1:54:49.600)
issue of, do you want to flip that coin? Do you want to flip that coin and be the 40%.
Zach Bitter (1:54:53.280)
Right. Exactly. So for me, what I found is like, I can push up to 40 grams without getting any
Zach Bitter (1:55:00.320)
digestion issues. Um, do I need 40 grams? Probably not, at least not based on kind of the numbers
Zach Bitter (1:55:07.440)
that would be like, uh, that, that I would see on, like if I went and actually got a,
Zach Bitter (1:55:12.080)
like a metabolic heart test or something like that. Um, but it's possible. I mean,
Zach Bitter (1:55:15.760)
if I had a really good race that I would get close to burning that per hour, um, most folks that are
Zach Bitter (1:55:20.880)
following a moderate high carbohydrate diet are going to be recommended to do like 50 to 70 grams
Zach Bitter (1:55:24.880)
during a single day ultra marathon events. And you'll see some, you know, some recommendations
Zach Bitter (1:55:29.440)
of up to like a hundred grams, uh, not so much for ultra marathons, but just in general, from
Zach Bitter (1:55:34.240)
like a performance standpoint, which I mean, it's one of those things where it's like application
Zach Bitter (1:55:38.960)
versus like what you can do in a lab for one hour is going to be a lot different, especially when
Zach Bitter (1:55:43.280)
you're stretching out distances well past that. And you, you, there's, there's, I'm diverting a
Zach Bitter (1:55:49.120)
little here, but I mean, there's like an approach of like training your gut so you can like be able
Zach Bitter (1:55:53.600)
to tolerate that much carbohydrate, which you can do, and you may have to, if you're going to follow
Zach Bitter (1:55:57.120)
a high carbohydrate diet. But again, we go back to that practicality standpoint of if you're a
Zach Bitter (1:56:02.640)
professional Olympian who's living and breathing performance and you're burning two to three times,
Zach Bitter (1:56:08.960)
you're messing, resting metabolic rate on some days, like you, you may be able to actually
Zach Bitter (1:56:15.360)
consume a hundred grams of carbohydrate per hour during your training sessions and, and just,
Zach Bitter (1:56:20.080)
you know, barely stay on top of your nutritional needs. Most people who are running ultra marathons
Zach Bitter (1:56:24.800)
aren't going to be, you know, probably training much past 10 hours per week. And they're probably
Zach Bitter (1:56:30.000)
not going to have the, I'll call it their, a dietary budget to tolerate a hundred grams of
Zach Bitter (1:56:35.680)
carbohydrate consumption during their workouts and still be able to stay healthy. And, you know,
Lex Fridman (1:56:40.560)
so I think that's kind of like a, a bit of a, of a non, a non starter for the majority of people,
Zach Bitter (1:56:46.720)
unless we want to talk about like a tiny percentage of the 1% of top performers.
Lex Fridman (1:56:51.360)
So maybe you can talk about the training, like fueling yourself during training as well.
Lex Fridman (1:56:55.120)
Is there, and also as part of that, is it possible to train mostly fasted?
Zach Bitter (1:57:02.400)
Because as a side comment, let me just say, I like, again, not anywhere, not even like one
Zach Bitter (1:57:10.080)
10th of your level of performance, but you know, I, I try to push myself and I just feel much better
Zach Bitter (1:57:15.440)
when I'm fasted. So water and maybe some salt for longer runs for anything over like 10, 15 miles,
Lex Fridman (1:57:21.840)
but not no food. Yeah. I think, I mean, I like to train on an empty stomach. I do most of my,
Zach Bitter (1:57:27.120)
my biggest training session usually in the morning. And it usually what will determine
Zach Bitter (1:57:30.640)
whether I eat something or not before that is like, how much do I need to eat that day in order
Zach Bitter (1:57:33.760)
to stay on top of it, to build training in the next day. So I'll, I'll, I'll usually do something
Zach Bitter (1:57:38.320)
similar to what I do before a race. If I need to kind of stay on top of calories for the day. So
Zach Bitter (1:57:42.080)
I'm not like at noon with like no calorie intake and like 5,000 calories to try to consume before
Zach Bitter (1:57:48.320)
I go to bed that night and get out and do the same thing the next day. But yeah, I think if I were,
Zach Bitter (1:57:54.880)
if I were doing what you're doing, like if that were my lifestyle, I think I would do almost all
Zach Bitter (1:58:00.320)
my runs fasted. I don't see why I would be eating a lot before it because it's like I'm just
Zach Bitter (1:58:05.840)
introducing something that could, especially if you're noticing, like here's what I'd say.
Zach Bitter (1:58:11.200)
If I was doing that and I was like, wow, this run sucks. And then I introduced something beforehand
Lex Fridman (1:58:15.840)
and now my run was feeling great and my progress was getting better. That's when I would maybe
Zach Bitter (1:58:19.520)
consider having something before. But if you're running both of those, those like self experiments,
Zach Bitter (1:58:24.320)
you're noticing, yeah, if I eat something before I go on this workout, the workouts less enjoyable,
Zach Bitter (1:58:28.720)
I'm not noticing any, any increased improvements on it. Again, it's a little messy. Like we said
Zach Bitter (1:58:33.440)
before, it's hard to really, you can't go back and try it a different way on that specific day.
Lex Fridman (1:58:37.840)
But I think, I think most people, if they're just like, they go at it with like no bias in the sense
Zach Bitter (1:58:43.440)
that they're like trying to make one work versus the other, you can get at least a good enough look
Zach Bitter (1:58:48.400)
at it. And if absolute peak performance in one activity, one very specific activity isn't your
Zach Bitter (1:58:55.680)
goal, then it's like, do you really care if one has a 2% performance increase that you won't even
Zach Bitter (1:59:01.120)
probably notice because there's other variables that will clearly overpower that 2% one way or
Zach Bitter (1:59:06.000)
the other. And there's some benefit in terms of freedom and letting go of like having to think
Zach Bitter (1:59:11.440)
about some of these variables. I see sort of fasting as even if it's like a hit on the performance,
Zach Bitter (1:59:17.040)
it's worth it to just not think about it. There's some really nice aspect to just putting on shoes,
Zach Bitter (1:59:23.920)
not caring like what shorts you wear or like what your outfit is, like not being optimal
Zach Bitter (1:59:29.360)
in every way and just not caring and just enjoying the purity of just running no matter what.
Zach Bitter (1:59:35.200)
Just enjoying the natural aspect. There's a side to me that sometimes just like craves a lifestyle
Zach Bitter (1:59:40.960)
where it's like I have like such a small house and only what I need and just like a handful of
Zach Bitter (1:59:48.160)
food products I know I enjoy and work well for me and I don't even have the distraction of the other
Zach Bitter (1:59:52.080)
stuff. There's almost like a weight that comes off your shoulders when you think even just thinking
Zach Bitter (1:59:58.240)
about it like it's so simple. So the reason I'm mostly a minimalist like that, the reason I have
Zach Bitter (20:01.360)
that avenue, um, where I think it's maybe to the extreme as if it becomes like your entire life
Zach Bitter (20:08.480)
philosophy where like every little thing you do is never quit. But life is short, Zach. Like why? I
Zach Bitter (20:15.520)
mean, this is the problem I have. This is probably the programming thing too is over optimization
Zach Bitter (20:21.520)
is dangerous. Uh, it's like every once in a while, I mean, you're, you do this kind of stuff.
Zach Bitter (20:28.560)
You're not, for example, with a hundred mile run, you're, I mean, you could just be doing that for
Zach Bitter (20:32.560)
the rest of your life and do like the most optimal hundred mile run ever, but you keep taking on like
Zach Bitter (20:38.000)
new challenges and there's a lot more chaos in that. And there it feels like the muscle of never
Zach Bitter (20:44.240)
quit will be much more important than the optimality of your training. Yeah. So there's
Zach Bitter (20:48.560)
probably a couple sides to me with that kind of a thing where for one, I think when we talked about
Zach Bitter (20:54.480)
the why, so like, I think the why can kind of shift a bit and it probably will if you do something
Zach Bitter (21:01.280)
long enough or evolve maybe is a better way to call it, to put it. And for me, like one of my
Zach Bitter (21:07.840)
my big drives and one of my big passions within ultra running is to first of all, find an event
Zach Bitter (21:15.120)
that I really, really love to train for and participate in. So for me, I feel like I've
Zach Bitter (21:18.960)
kind of identified that to a degree and that's kind of runnable hundred milers. So once I found
Zach Bitter (21:24.720)
that it became more of a driver for me to see like, well, how fast can I run a hundred miles in
Zach Bitter (21:31.280)
a very controlled environment? So let's eliminate weather, let's eliminate, you know, elevation,
Zach Bitter (21:36.640)
let's eliminate like having to wait extra long to get crew or support and that sort of thing.
Lex Fridman (21:41.760)
And that's how you find yourself on a 400 meter track running a hundred miles. But for me, like
Zach Bitter (21:46.720)
the important part of that is that I can control the environment enough where if I come back year
Zach Bitter (21:51.760)
after year, I can retest myself and have a decent ability to kind of say I improved or I regressed
Zach Bitter (21:58.560)
or I stayed stagnant. And I think that's a big driver for me. But one thing I've recognized
Zach Bitter (22:03.600)
within that is if you just keep doing that, like if I could probably pick three flat runnable hundred
Zach Bitter (22:10.880)
milers a year and optimally prepare, race, recover and repeat without like burning myself out.
Lex Fridman (22:18.160)
But one thing I think I learned also in 2019 was that sometimes you kind of need to step away from
Zach Bitter (22:26.480)
some of these really, really kind of important markers in your like your performance or in
Zach Bitter (22:32.720)
whatever you're trying to do and take a step away from it and try to do something a little different
Zach Bitter (22:37.360)
in order to kind of hit the reset button on just like what I would call just like your mental
Zach Bitter (22:42.400)
energy to be able to continue to do it at a high level. So almost like happiness. Exactly. Well,
Zach Bitter (22:48.400)
here's the example. Like, I mean, I love running in trails to most people would consider me a flat
Zach Bitter (22:52.720)
road track runner, runnable ultra runner. But I like to do trail runs too. So and at the end of
Zach Bitter (22:58.400)
two thousand and eighteen, I recognized that I had been kind of pushing the gas pedal on trying to
Zach Bitter (23:06.240)
run fast hundred milers for quite a while without really a break in that where it was like, OK,
Zach Bitter (23:10.720)
I did one. Now I'm going to take a brief off season, but then I'm going to ultimately build
Zach Bitter (23:15.200)
up and peak for another one. I might introduce some fun trail races in the context, but they're
Zach Bitter (23:19.280)
going to be races are going to be training races, time on feet type of stuff that are going to kind
Zach Bitter (23:23.040)
of mimic like a long run, essentially. And but the main focus always in the back of my mind was
Zach Bitter (23:28.560)
like getting on the track and seeing how much faster I can run a hundred miles. And that just
Zach Bitter (23:32.640)
kind of that energy that it takes to continually think by that, that I think the motivation to
Zach Bitter (23:38.160)
keep that stoke high enough to really meet your full potential fades if you don't step away from
Zach Bitter (23:43.920)
it for a little bit. So I took essentially half a year away from runnable stuff and just decided
Zach Bitter (23:49.680)
I'm going to prepare for the San Diego hundred mile, which is like a much more elevation,
Zach Bitter (23:55.840)
technical trail type of an event. Is that a trail run or no? Yeah. It's a trail hundred miler
Zach Bitter (24:02.320)
actually just kind of just outside of San Diego. And yeah, it goes through it goes over part of
Zach Bitter (24:08.480)
the Pacific Crest Trail and stuff. So it's very different than running on a runnable surface. So
Zach Bitter (24:13.200)
to give you some context, like I ran was I think just under 17 hours for that race,
Zach Bitter (24:18.000)
whereas on a flat surface I can run 11 hours and 19 minutes. So just the environment alone added
Zach Bitter (24:24.160)
an extra, you know, five plus hours to the day. So it's just a different experience, different
Zach Bitter (24:30.240)
skill set. And what it did is it allowed me to kind of step away from kind of focusing on like
Zach Bitter (24:36.640)
splits on a track, running flat stuff, like preparing for things specifically for a flat
Zach Bitter (24:42.400)
environment and start training for something that's more climbing and descending, more technical
Zach Bitter (24:46.720)
running skill sets and things like that. And the cool part about it was, first of all, you know,
Zach Bitter (24:52.560)
when you step away from something and after something a lot different, I mean, it's still
Zach Bitter (24:55.840)
running. There's still a huge advantage I had from the running I'd done in the past that was
Zach Bitter (25:00.160)
going to put me in a good position to be successful. But there was a much higher or a much bigger range
Zach Bitter (25:06.800)
of potential improvement for me. So through the like four plus months I spent preparing for that
Zach Bitter (25:12.560)
race, you know, I noticed, oh wow, I'm getting faster on this climb or I'm getting better at
Zach Bitter (25:17.280)
descending this technical trail. It was one of the most fun races I've run actually. So it was kind
Zach Bitter (25:21.200)
of a cool experience. I ended up taking the lead at like 93 miles. So you were racing, racing,
Zach Bitter (25:27.040)
like you were trying to get first. So it's still a race. Yeah. So what was the enjoyable aspect of
Zach Bitter (25:31.920)
it? I don't think I've recognized it so much while I was doing it actually. It surfaced afterwards. I
Zach Bitter (25:36.800)
mean, the enjoyment of the race itself is like when you find yourself in a position where you're
Zach Bitter (25:39.920)
sitting in basically second place all day long and then you take the lead at 90, I think it was like
Zach Bitter (25:44.400)
91 or 92 miles. It's like, yeah, that's kind of a cool way to race. But afterwards I recognized a
Zach Bitter (25:52.000)
few things just about kind of pacing and you know, how to maybe pace the first half of a hundred
Zach Bitter (25:57.840)
miler versus a second half. I also recognized shortly thereafter once I finished or covered
Lex Fridman (26:04.400)
and decided my next event was going to be a flat runnable race that, wow, I really was way more
Zach Bitter (26:10.480)
excited to do the workouts that I needed to do to get ready to run a fast, flat hundred miler.
Lex Fridman (26:15.280)
And I don't think that would have been the case had I just tried to do another flat, fast hundred
Zach Bitter (26:19.120)
miler earlier or during that year and end up in a situation where like I maybe had like normalized
Zach Bitter (26:26.080)
a suboptimal like outlook on like something that I had just done so many times already.
Zach Bitter (26:32.000)
Yeah. And I recognize that it was just every workout I did. I was like, I did this workout
Zach Bitter (26:36.640)
a year ago and it was not nearly this much fun. And our, you know, the interesting thing about
Zach Bitter (26:41.600)
these track hundreds too, is like you find yourself doing like your peaking phase where
Zach Bitter (26:45.600)
you're running your long runs, which for me are usually like, you know, around 30 miles or so,
Lex Fridman (26:49.760)
and I'll do them on back to back days. And you know, I try to replicate the environment I'm
Zach Bitter (26:54.160)
going to race on. So I'm finding myself on a 400 meter track. And it's like when I started doing
Zach Bitter (26:59.120)
that again, I just felt like I was super motivated to go out there Saturday and Sunday and do those
Zach Bitter (27:02.480)
back to back long runs and see the progress and then head out again the next week and do it again.
Lex Fridman (27:06.800)
So I had some of my more enjoyable long runs, which are going to be the most specific to the
Zach Bitter (27:10.880)
race day environment that I had in quite some time. And I think that was really beneficial
Lex Fridman (27:15.680)
and kind of putting me in the right spot to be able to push through barriers on race day
Lex Fridman (27:19.200)
and put me in a position where quitting was going to be much less of a likelihood,
Lex Fridman (27:23.680)
given the enjoyment I had in the months leading into the race itself.
Zach Bitter (27:26.640)
Yeah, even the thought of quitting. Yeah. Yeah. So you mentioned the track,
Zach Bitter (27:31.360)
you've also ran 100 miles on the treadmill, and the trail 100 mile. Broadly, if we zoom out,
Lex Fridman (27:38.000)
what does it take to run 100 miles? For most of the world, that seems like a crazy distance to run.
Lex Fridman (27:46.560)
So maybe it's interesting to ask, not only is just setting the world record, but
Zach Bitter (27:50.640)
purely running, what does it take to run that far? Yeah, I mean, I think people probably
Zach Bitter (27:56.240)
overestimate what it takes in terms of just getting it done. I think this is consistent in
Zach Bitter (28:02.720)
just running in general. I think the marathon was always a big one with that where people thought
Zach Bitter (28:06.720)
like, well, you have to do this training, or you just literally won't physically be able to complete
Zach Bitter (28:12.000)
a marathon. And then we got into an era of kind of like, running as more of an enjoyment thing
Zach Bitter (28:17.200)
versus a performance thing. And then you'd have people running, granted much slower. I think if
Zach Bitter (28:21.120)
you look at the Boston Marathon average finishing times, it goes from like, or maybe it wasn't the
Zach Bitter (28:25.680)
Boston Marathon, it might have been marathons in general, went from like three hours to five hours
Zach Bitter (28:29.520)
or something like that. So it's like, people, I think got past the fact that you can only do it
Zach Bitter (28:35.440)
if you're optimally prepared to, well, I can do it and maybe not meet my full potential if I'm
Zach Bitter (28:39.600)
going to like, not do much training, which I wouldn't necessarily advise. But I mean, I've
Zach Bitter (28:45.360)
I've talked to people who basically run 100 miles, sometimes almost off the couch. And it's like,
Zach Bitter (28:50.240)
it's, to me, what that says is just the human body is incredible, and what it can tolerate
Zach Bitter (28:54.640)
above and beyond what it's been exposed to, if it has to, or if it feels like it has to.
Lex Fridman (28:58.400)
So that's the basic sort of getting from point A, from the start to the finish. It's the human body
Lex Fridman (29:04.400)
and the human mind is capable of doing it without much preparation. But then you start to increase
Zach Bitter (29:09.920)
the goal of performance, and you try to get actually a good, like, the most out of your body
Zach Bitter (29:16.480)
that you can. How does that start to change then? Yeah, going from fun to performance? Yeah, I think
Zach Bitter (29:23.200)
once you start putting marks or goals on outside of just finishing, that's where it starts getting
Zach Bitter (29:27.440)
interesting. Because now you could maybe go on with multiple goals where like, if one falls off
Zach Bitter (29:31.680)
due to something that you didn't expect, then you have another one to target. But you can always
Zach Bitter (29:35.600)
build those up and try to think like, well, I want to run faster than last time, or I want to, you
Zach Bitter (29:39.440)
know, break a course record or an age group record or something like that. And that that I think is
Zach Bitter (29:46.000)
just going to be a little bit of a different mindset. Because now you're looking at every
Zach Bitter (29:50.240)
little thing from what do I need to do to prepare as well as what I need to do to be efficient on
Lex Fridman (29:55.200)
the day itself. So like transitioning aid stations and things like that, or do I want a pacer or not?
Zach Bitter (2:00:03.040)
stuff is I realize like you probably have to fit into society and if you want to have other people
Zach Bitter (2:00:08.960)
in your life you should probably get used to having stuff because most people like stuff.
Zach Bitter (2:00:14.560)
Right. Well yeah there's that side of it too and there's a whole, you don't want to ostracize
Zach Bitter (2:00:20.080)
yourself too much and I think anything you can kind of like you can manipulate that a little
Zach Bitter (2:00:24.560)
bit where there's things that are like not specific to, that's going to negatively impact
Zach Bitter (2:00:30.640)
the people around you or your experiences with them. So there's a balance like everything I guess.
Zach Bitter (2:00:35.760)
Yeah I mean that's why I drink, I think I mentioned you offline, drink vodka, whiskey,
Zach Bitter (2:00:40.480)
sort of alcohol because I don't feel good about it the day after or sometimes multiple days after
Lex Fridman (2:00:49.120)
so I know it's not good for me. So I do a lot of stuff that's good for me, everything we talked
Zach Bitter (2:00:53.440)
about exercise and diet and all those kinds of things but the alcohol almost symbolizes
Zach Bitter (2:00:58.320)
embracing the chaos of life, the wild and the amazing things that could happen and I think
Zach Bitter (2:01:03.920)
that's really important because if you optimize everything about life then you're going to miss
Zach Bitter (2:01:10.080)
most of the fun stuff that happens in life. So it's not all about the optimization, it's some of it
Zach Bitter (2:01:16.400)
like everyone has different things and what they, how they introduce that chaos in a controlled way.
Zach Bitter (2:01:21.840)
For me alcohol is that because I'm okay drinking not too much so I can control that aspect even
Zach Bitter (2:01:28.480)
though it's unhealthy it introduces just the right amount of fun that I embrace it.
Zach Bitter (2:01:34.720)
Yeah and I mean it is one of those things where it's like I'm going to benefit now and pay later
Zach Bitter (2:01:38.640)
a little bit too where like and hey if you go and you go out with some friends and drink and you
Zach Bitter (2:01:45.520)
have memories that last a lifetime from that experience and you paid for it for a couple
Lex Fridman (2:01:49.680)
days after then hey maybe that's a fair trade off from a life experience.
Lex Fridman (2:01:52.800)
And part of the vodka thing is I need to honor my ancestors so it's like you have to you know you
Zach Bitter (2:01:59.040)
can't you can't turn your back on your past. Let me ask about the 100 mile world record on the
Zach Bitter (2:02:08.560)
treadmill. So for most people running a treadmill is really boring so that's kind of their experience
Zach Bitter (2:02:16.240)
of it that's probably the first thing that would say that seems like really boring to run 100 miles
Zach Bitter (2:02:20.000)
in a treadmill. Would you say it's boring? Like what were some places your mind went to make that
Zach Bitter (2:02:27.040)
happen? So this one is interesting to me because I definitely recognized the boredom and the
Zach Bitter (2:02:33.920)
difference. The thing that the question I can't quite answer I think with it is like could I have
Zach Bitter (2:02:39.520)
remedied that with better preparation because the scenario that put me on a treadmill for 100 miles
Zach Bitter (2:02:44.880)
was you know it was March 2020 basically the cascade of every race on the planet got cancelled
Lex Fridman (2:02:51.760)
and I was in a position where I was going to be doing a runnable 100 miler on a track in
Zach Bitter (2:02:59.280)
mid to late April so I had like the majority of my training under my belt so I was like kind of
Zach Bitter (2:03:03.360)
putting the finishing touches on that and I was like oh great here we are like you know what do
Zach Bitter (2:03:08.480)
I do with this fitness? Do I just scale back and hope the events come back in fall and then peak
Zach Bitter (2:03:13.760)
again or do I find something to use this fitness for? And the treadmill was the closest thing to
Lex Fridman (2:03:19.120)
what I had been training for in terms of just like a mechanical like flat running essentially
Zach Bitter (2:03:23.280)
that I could think of and my thought was okay well I'll just live stream myself on a treadmill
Lex Fridman (2:03:31.760)
and see what happens. It ended up turning into like a quite a big event. So you don't usually
Zach Bitter (2:03:36.080)
incorporate treadmill running into your running into your training? I don't not incorporate it.
Zach Bitter (2:03:41.040)
I just don't incorporate it in the way that would be necessarily conducive to uh you know dealing
Zach Bitter (2:03:46.640)
with the mental aspects of being on a treadmill for 100 miles. Was it that different than running
Zach Bitter (2:03:51.200)
on a track? It was from the sense that here's the way I describe it is when I'm on a track it's a
Zach Bitter (2:03:55.840)
controlled environment and everything can be very uniform but there are tiny little micro adjustments
Lex Fridman (2:04:02.480)
and pace that that I'm doing subconsciously that give me the sense of control. Right. No I might
Zach Bitter (2:04:08.880)
run the exact same split but there's like a fraction of a second or you know a fraction
Zach Bitter (2:04:13.920)
second faster than a fraction of seconds slower that equals the same outcome. It gives you that
Zach Bitter (2:04:17.440)
sense of control. You're determining how fast you're going. On a treadmill you're responding
Zach Bitter (2:04:22.320)
to the belt so the advantage is you can set a pace and know you're hitting it. The disadvantage is
Zach Bitter (2:04:27.440)
you're being told what to do by that machine and that gets very frustrating. I've felt like I wanted
Zach Bitter (2:04:32.880)
to step off like you get to like certain points where you're just like like even stepping off
Lex Fridman (2:04:37.840)
what I noticed I learned this on the day of actually I noticed there's something where it
Zach Bitter (2:04:41.280)
didn't really matter how long I get off like I get off to use the bathroom and that was a little
Zach Bitter (2:04:44.800)
bit of a longer break. Then I had like a hiccup during my event where we ran so much power through
Zach Bitter (2:04:52.160)
one end of the house that the screen on the treadmill was blacking out. So I ended up jumping
Zach Bitter (2:04:58.640)
back and forth on treadmills for quite a bit in the beginning and I noticed even turning it off
Zach Bitter (2:05:03.120)
stepping on the other and starting the other one up gave me like you know a handful of seconds
Zach Bitter (2:05:06.400)
between was enough of a mental break of just like that release of being told what to do to reset.
Lex Fridman (2:05:12.480)
So maybe if you were in the future you would figure out what exactly how much is needed to
Zach Bitter (2:05:17.280)
have that mental break. I never actually thought about that that I mean obviously for you but also
Zach Bitter (2:05:21.920)
for people like me like amateur runners that that's a source of frustration with the treadmill
Zach Bitter (2:05:26.960)
that there's sometimes small adjustments in pace that we do running not on the treadmill on the
Zach Bitter (2:05:33.520)
ground that feel like essential. Just like you said that experience of control like
Zach Bitter (2:05:41.280)
feeling like you're in control somehow that's really I don't know that's somehow liberating
Zach Bitter (2:05:46.080)
in the way that a treadmill can be just the source of frustration. The funny thing though
Zach Bitter (2:05:51.280)
about the treadmill is I actually like to do faster workouts on the treadmill like long intervals or
Zach Bitter (2:05:57.040)
something like that or tempo runs because for that type of stuff sometimes for those I want
Zach Bitter (2:06:02.560)
to release the brainpower required to hit that pace and say you take care of that and for that
Zach Bitter (2:06:07.920)
it's fun but those are over quick so you don't really run into the times. Yeah that's fascinating
Zach Bitter (2:06:11.760)
for like precise control of pace. You've also during that stream got to interact one of the
Zach Bitter (2:06:18.320)
greatest athletes of all time, Berg Kreischer. What's your he's actually doing I don't know
Zach Bitter (2:06:22.960)
if you're paying attention to this but I guess he has a goal of running 2,000 miles this year. Yeah.
Zach Bitter (2:06:27.280)
I've got a chance to talk to Joe Rogan yesterday about this which is fascinating. I think he's a
Zach Bitter (2:06:33.440)
little bit doubtful of Bert's ability to be the ultra performer that he so naturally is. Yeah.
Zach Bitter (2:06:41.120)
What's your thoughts about Bert as a runner? What's your advice to him and what was your
Zach Bitter (2:06:46.000)
interaction like as part of this treadmill challenge with him? I love Bert because he's
Zach Bitter (2:06:50.880)
such a nice person. I mean as a guy who's just accelerated in popularity over the last few years
Zach Bitter (2:06:57.280)
like he is like super kind so for folks who are curious like I've met Bert a couple years earlier
Lex Fridman (2:07:04.160)
and I just randomly asked him like hey I'm doing this live stream thing we're doing it for fight
Zach Bitter (2:07:08.880)
for the forgotten we're trying to raise some funds for them would you want to come on the live
Zach Bitter (2:07:12.960)
stream for a bit and I thought maybe he'd come off like five or ten minutes and I thought that'd
Zach Bitter (2:07:16.720)
be amazing if he did that he ended up coming on for like over an hour he said he went past his slot
Zach Bitter (2:07:20.880)
sat in the next slot and just started talking with some of the other guests it's just he's just
Zach Bitter (2:07:25.680)
like Bert is definitely like I feel like he's as unchanged from like his popularity as one can get
Zach Bitter (2:07:32.320)
away with and it's just like his his lifestyle I think is very unpredictable in the sense that like
Zach Bitter (2:07:40.960)
if he wants to run like x time for a specific race that's going to pull away from his lifestyle so
Zach Bitter (2:07:47.120)
much to focus on that luckily for him he's actually a great athlete like you it's it's under that layer
Zach Bitter (2:07:53.120)
of uh of fat yeah so for people who are not familiar Bert Kresch is a comedian who takes off
Zach Bitter (2:07:58.080)
his shirt often has he's a uh uh elegant layer of fat around him he's also a party animal so he's a
Zach Bitter (2:08:06.400)
weird balance of like healthy and unhealthy yeah so he drinks a lot during I think there's some
Zach Bitter (2:08:14.080)
debate about that but certainly after his uh his performances but at the same time he's into kind of
Zach Bitter (2:08:20.480)
the running thing and he does quite a bit of treadmill running I think so and like I said
Zach Bitter (2:08:25.920)
has this challenge of running 2000 miles this year so it's fascinating to have somebody who
Lex Fridman (2:08:30.800)
so fully embraces life and the full joys of life as represented by the huge amounts of drinking and
Zach Bitter (2:08:37.760)
partying and just being a wild man but also at the same time like being at least curious about this
Zach Bitter (2:08:45.360)
challenging yourself in the physical realm it's kind of fascinating it reminds me of um one of
Zach Bitter (2:08:51.040)
my favorite comedians like Eddie Izzard who's been doing those challenges basically off the
Zach Bitter (2:08:56.160)
couch just running um a marathon a day kind of thing it's fascinating to see the purity of those
Zach Bitter (2:09:04.080)
challenges when like exercise hasn't necessarily been deeply ingrained in your life and you kind
Zach Bitter (2:09:10.960)
of just embrace the challenge anyway and take it on and that's another way of looking at it
Zach Bitter (2:09:16.000)
because we've been talking about running as a a performance like optimization thing where training
Zach Bitter (2:09:22.240)
is such a huge part of this process like race day is just the cherry on top but there's for some
Zach Bitter (2:09:28.240)
people where the race is the cake yeah it's like they just take it on as a pure challenge as the
Zach Bitter (2:09:33.760)
as the as the thing you haven't really trained for as the thing you haven't you don't understand
Zach Bitter (2:09:38.800)
the intricacies of but you take it on anyway and that that reveals something about the human spirit
Zach Bitter (2:09:43.360)
as well yeah and there's definitely like a switch that flips when you in your mind is saying
Zach Bitter (2:09:48.160)
i'm going to do this where then all of a sudden it goes from like you stop thinking about oh that's
Zach Bitter (2:09:52.240)
not possible to like well i'm just going to do it and i think Burt highlights that perfectly in a
Zach Bitter (2:09:56.320)
lot of cases where like he's he's maybe not even thinking it through enough to get to the point
Zach Bitter (2:10:01.200)
where it's like he gets the point where he thinks this is not possible where most people would look
Zach Bitter (2:10:05.280)
at it and think huh i don't know if i can actually physically accomplish that task Burt's just like
Zach Bitter (2:10:09.760)
oh yeah i'm gonna do it and my my thought with Burt was the 2000 mile thing where he's like
Zach Bitter (2:10:14.400)
yeah i'm gonna do it and my my thought with Burt was the 2000 mile thing is where are we gonna find
Zach Bitter (2:10:19.280)
him at the end of the year with like 36 hours to go on 100 miles and that's right that's right
Zach Bitter (2:10:24.320)
that's what's gonna happen and it's going to be hilarious uh so speaking of things that are insane
Lex Fridman (2:10:31.680)
and like taking on challenges that don't seem like you didn't you didn't think through uh
Zach Bitter (2:10:38.800)
uh you're thinking about running across the country in in a challenge you call the transcontinental
Zach Bitter (2:10:46.160)
run can you describe this challenge and what the heck you're thinking yeah yeah so this is uh you
Zach Bitter (2:10:52.080)
know one thing that is exciting about ultra marathons i think in a lot of places especially
Zach Bitter (2:10:56.560)
early in someone's ultra marathon adventure if they decide to do that as a you know part of their
Zach Bitter (2:11:01.600)
life is you have like these early years where you're doing things for the first time and it's
Zach Bitter (2:11:05.920)
like so cool and scary at the same time to think today i'm gonna run 100 miles and the first ever
Zach Bitter (2:11:11.680)
run before is 50 or something like that and you just know you're gonna do something that you've
Zach Bitter (2:11:15.600)
never done before you're gonna experience things you would have never been able to predict
Lex Fridman (2:11:19.760)
and it's like this really interesting unique like human experience i think so for me i've
Zach Bitter (2:11:26.000)
spent most of my career at this point like doing i got through that phase and a lot of the events
Zach Bitter (2:11:30.480)
i'm really interested in and then it was like now let's repeat it and see if we can do it better
Lex Fridman (2:11:34.960)
and you get into that mindset for a while which is also a fun mindset but there is that kind of
Zach Bitter (2:11:39.840)
like uh desire to kind of have that human experience again of like you know not knowing
Lex Fridman (2:11:45.280)
what could happen or is this doable type of a thing but still doing it and figuring it out
Zach Bitter (2:11:49.600)
along the way so i would describe the transcontinental project as something like that it's
Zach Bitter (2:11:53.600)
not anything unique to me or anything new there's been a lot of people who've done it before
Lex Fridman (2:11:57.440)
but essentially it's a route there's different routes there's one kind of main one that's done
Zach Bitter (2:12:01.360)
for like the that is used as the record route more or less that you go from san francisco to
Zach Bitter (2:12:06.320)
new york and essentially you live out of an rv uh while you're running so you run as much as you
Zach Bitter (2:12:11.440)
can during the day then you go to bed at night and then you get up and do it again and you're
Zach Bitter (2:12:16.240)
you're handling all the logistics and the process of trying to make sure you can get up the next day
Lex Fridman (2:12:22.320)
and do again what you did the day before which is going to be the biggest difference so for me
Zach Bitter (2:12:26.320)
i've done all single day ultra marathons where you're going to wring yourself dry at knowing the
Zach Bitter (2:12:32.000)
next day or week or however long you need you're going to be able to just kind of like shut
Zach Bitter (2:12:35.520)
everything down and let everything catch back up whereas with this like you know you're doing it
Zach Bitter (2:12:39.760)
again and again again yeah and you know the record is by a guy named p costa who averaged just over
Zach Bitter (2:12:44.080)
72 miles a day finished in 42 days six hours and 30 minutes and i mean just like 72 miles 73 miles
Lex Fridman (2:12:50.960)
and then like next day again next day again just knowing every day when you finish you spend a whole
Zach Bitter (2:12:55.920)
day running and then okay i'm gonna go to bed i'm gonna wake up in the morning i'm gonna have to do
Zach Bitter (2:12:58.880)
this again and then you know have that happen for six weeks and that's if it goes very well
Lex Fridman (2:13:04.000)
so luck i assume is a big part of this yeah for sure i mean there's just so many variables that
Zach Bitter (2:13:08.880)
are uncontrollable on this type of an experience just because i mean you go over the sierras maybe
Zach Bitter (2:13:12.960)
you hit a storm you know you try to time it most people do it in sep start in september so you
Zach Bitter (2:13:18.320)
can get over the mountain passes without a big storm coming through uh but then also get to the
Zach Bitter (2:13:23.920)
east coast before it's like the middle of winter so like september early september start is kind
Zach Bitter (2:13:28.480)
of ideal but you can you know i mean pete was very fortunate from a weather standpoint i think
Zach Bitter (2:13:33.280)
he made one big mistake he got a little too aggressive beginning had to take a full day off
Lex Fridman (2:13:36.640)
so he actually averaged from a moving day standpoint closer to 75 miles per day um but
Zach Bitter (2:13:42.640)
yeah i mean there's going to be things that i can't prepare for won't know it's going to happen
Zach Bitter (2:13:47.200)
you know a lot of that will get a lot of the logistical stuff will get leaned on with the crew
Lex Fridman (2:13:51.680)
so that's i mean that's the hardest part right now is just like getting all that put together
Zach Bitter (2:13:56.000)
where it's like okay i need to have the rv ready i need to have all the stuff and we need to have
Zach Bitter (2:14:00.400)
the places figured out where we're going to stop and and the people that can you know dedicate
Zach Bitter (2:14:05.280)
that much time to an activity like that you know there's a lot of moving parts even before you
Zach Bitter (2:14:09.760)
start the adventure itself when are you see you're taking the san francisco to new york yeah and when
Zach Bitter (2:14:14.960)
are you doing the the run september 1st is when uh you know barring anything like catastrophic
Zach Bitter (2:14:20.080)
between now and then it's really exciting but i mean this is incredible so you you'll probably
Zach Bitter (2:14:24.160)
have a bunch of people just randomly running with you are people going to be tracking where you're
Zach Bitter (2:14:28.320)
located yeah so i'll be documenting everything because i mean my hope is that i'm doing it
Zach Bitter (2:14:32.800)
primarily to raise awareness for fight for the forgotten justin wren's charity uh but with that
Zach Bitter (2:14:37.840)
said i think i am capable of uh if i have a good experience uh you know chasing the record or going
Zach Bitter (2:14:44.080)
after the record or at least getting close to it so oh shit so you're gonna try to beat this record
Zach Bitter (2:14:49.600)
yeah i'm gonna i'm gonna go out with the i'm gonna structure the process in a way that leaves
Zach Bitter (2:14:54.720)
that door open is the way i would describe it i'm gonna try not to do anything that would potentially
Zach Bitter (2:15:00.560)
put it in a situation where that becomes the primary goal just because i want to make sure
Zach Bitter (2:15:04.800)
that the reason i decided to do in the first place was for fight for the forgotten so i want
Zach Bitter (2:15:08.720)
to make sure that i don't end up two thirds of the way across the country with a broken leg and i'm
Zach Bitter (2:15:13.040)
like hey guys uh i guess the donation button's turned off so focus on like don't sacrifice that
Zach Bitter (2:15:20.800)
right that goal but also there's a community aspect to it that i feel like are you going to
Zach Bitter (2:15:27.920)
i mean so you're going to document and post yeah but are you going to also is there a safety
Zach Bitter (2:15:34.320)
perspective here it's like the forest gum thing you might have large numbers of crowds that run
Zach Bitter (2:15:39.520)
along with you for a while yeah are you worried about that kind of thing i wouldn't say i'm
Zach Bitter (2:15:43.760)
worried about i mean i think there's probably there's remote enough spots along the way where
Zach Bitter (2:15:47.760)
you'll get some alone time more more likely i don't necessarily mind if people want to jump in
Zach Bitter (2:15:52.320)
there'll there'll be some people that will definitely want to do that and and they can come
Zach Bitter (2:15:56.560)
in and but the reality is like it's probably not going to be a scenario where there's like
Zach Bitter (2:16:01.200)
you know 40 people following me at all times you say that now yeah you never know just wait for
Zach Bitter (2:16:06.960)
this podcast yeah and then if joe finds out you're doing this then we're in trouble all right so um
Zach Bitter (2:16:13.920)
i mean what are the things that you think will be the hardest for you and also like how do you
Zach Bitter (2:16:18.800)
train for this kind of thing um and what yeah what are the hardest things you anticipate how do you
Zach Bitter (2:16:25.360)
train for them yeah so the way i'm looking at this is it's much less about performance from
Zach Bitter (2:16:30.240)
the traditional sense where i need to be able to be x fit i think i need to be injury proof that's
Zach Bitter (2:16:37.680)
what's going to be a detriment if you think about it like if i manage to average nine minute mile
Zach Bitter (2:16:43.680)
pace for a day that would be 80 miles in a 12 hour time frame so i'll easily have 12 hours
Zach Bitter (2:16:51.520)
of moving time per day um nine minute pace i think is slow enough that it's not an unreasonable clip
Lex Fridman (2:16:57.760)
so like when you i mean obviously there's things that slow you down or i'll probably take walking
Zach Bitter (2:17:03.200)
breaks you know stopping breaks you got to stay on top of nutrition that's the other big thing too i'm
Zach Bitter (2:17:07.520)
you know probably eating like anywhere between 10 to 15 000 calories a day which is you know i can
Zach Bitter (2:17:11.920)
probably count on my hand a couple of occasions where i've eaten that much in my life so now i
Zach Bitter (2:17:15.600)
got to do that for six plus weeks in a row and you don't want any having a stomach problem i'm
Zach Bitter (2:17:19.920)
trying to try to minimize the amount of stomach problems so you would you estimate about 12 to 13
Zach Bitter (2:17:25.040)
to 14 hours of running every day yeah that's probably like from from the first step to the
Zach Bitter (2:17:29.920)
last step it'll probably be somewhere around like say 14 hours 13 hours or something like that would
Zach Bitter (2:17:35.040)
be a pretty good estimate and then getting rest and so and then minimizing the risk of injury
Zach Bitter (2:17:40.320)
which could be as small as like like literally uneven surfaces resulting to like stepping the
Zach Bitter (2:17:46.000)
wrong way i mean that's going to be a lot of steps yeah yeah uh huh so the probability of injury are
Zach Bitter (2:17:51.200)
you worried about that kind of stuff is can you strengthen the ankles or those kinds of things
Zach Bitter (2:17:55.600)
that prevent yeah possibility of injury and that's that's where i'm putting a lot of my focus in is
Zach Bitter (2:18:01.680)
i think like just being running fit is going to be like generally speaking is going to be
Zach Bitter (2:18:07.040)
important i'm going to i think just from a lifetime of running is going to be a huge advantage
Zach Bitter (2:18:12.720)
a lot of these like kind of like mechanical movements are going to be very established
Zach Bitter (2:18:16.960)
it's just going to be about can i tolerate that volume of it there i think that i'm doing more
Zach Bitter (2:18:21.760)
strength work i think this is something where it's like you know maybe adding five pounds of
Zach Bitter (2:18:25.520)
lower body muscle is going to be an advantage versus a disadvantage when you're looking at
Zach Bitter (2:18:29.280)
power weight ratio because i just don't really don't i don't i never need to be running a 648
Zach Bitter (2:18:33.760)
mile for this adventure um and i so i'm looking at that i'm doing a lot more of that stuff focusing
Zach Bitter (2:18:40.160)
on that the training is changing a fair bit where it's more polarizing versus kind of being
Zach Bitter (2:18:46.480)
i mean i've always had some polarization in my training but this is even to an extreme where
Zach Bitter (2:18:50.480)
like i'm going to do some simulations where uh you know i go out and do two or three days where i
Zach Bitter (2:18:55.920)
target the exact thing i will be doing on the transcon you were on instagram posting about
Zach Bitter (2:19:00.560)
these simulated runs so you legitimately like trying to perfectly copy what would happen in
Zach Bitter (2:19:05.920)
one two or three day segment on that run yeah just to kind of start to weed out where are the
Zach Bitter (2:19:11.520)
potential problems so let's say i do a two or three day simulation where i'm averaging 70 miles a day
Lex Fridman (2:19:18.240)
and i find out at the end of three days there's a really weak spot here um i need to address that or
Zach Bitter (2:19:23.520)
i need to find a way to make that not a weak spot i think that's the only way to really get as close
Zach Bitter (2:19:28.240)
as you can to avoiding injury have you done that yet have you done a two day 70 mile like even that's
Zach Bitter (2:19:33.360)
incredibly difficult i haven't yet i'm going to build up to it because that's the other thing too
Zach Bitter (2:19:37.040)
is like i don't think you want to be so aggressive with that where you get injured trying to figure
Zach Bitter (2:19:41.920)
out how not to get injured uh so i'll i'll what i'm going to start what i just started last week
Zach Bitter (2:19:47.520)
is i've uh it looks really weird on my training schedule because like last week i ran almost 150
Zach Bitter (2:19:52.720)
miles but i took two days off so it's like usually for me to get to 150 miles that's a seven day
Zach Bitter (2:19:57.040)
training week uh so that's the way i'm doing it like i did i did a day where i did uh you know
Zach Bitter (2:20:02.640)
two like just over 20 milers separated with by just a couple hours and within that couple hours
Zach Bitter (2:20:08.400)
i did like a three mile walk the following morning i woke up and ran i think it was like
Zach Bitter (2:20:12.960)
just over 36 miles first thing in the morning just to get an idea of just like kind of like
Lex Fridman (2:20:17.360)
what is it like to be i mean this was in phoenix too so it was 100 degrees for the majority of that
Zach Bitter (2:20:21.840)
just suffer then rest yeah suffer again how that feels there's enough precedent with this sort of
Zach Bitter (2:20:27.680)
an activity where like everyone i've talked to so far has told me like there is going to be like
Zach Bitter (2:20:32.720)
this kind of like gradual decline in the early stages where you're just like okay it's getting
Zach Bitter (2:20:36.480)
worse it's getting worse it's getting worse and you hit a point where you're just like it hits
Zach Bitter (2:20:41.280)
kind of rock bottom and then like it starts to kind of gradually improve so you kind of have to
Zach Bitter (2:20:46.320)
let yourself get it's weird i think i can maybe eliminate i'm trying to find a way to eliminate
Zach Bitter (2:20:52.320)
some of that by doing the simulations whereas i from what i've seen i haven't seen a lot of people
Zach Bitter (2:20:57.600)
do the simulation route yet i've seen people just do like a lot of training and then say like okay
Zach Bitter (2:21:02.640)
i'll spend the first seven to ten days adapting to this and then i'll get comfortable within this
Zach Bitter (2:21:07.920)
environment and be fine whereas i'm going to try to get to a point where like some of that is
Zach Bitter (2:21:13.040)
already kind of cleared up before i start but not so much that i'm like adding like an extra
Zach Bitter (2:21:16.960)
central week to the trip with worth of running what do you think will be the hardest simulator
Zach Bitter (2:21:22.400)
run leading up to like will you do three days yeah i think i'll probably try to do three days
Zach Bitter (2:21:28.400)
somewhere between 70 and 80 miles each will be kind of like the goal will that be in august do
Zach Bitter (2:21:32.880)
you think how close to yeah i would like it to be in august like early august would be ideal i think
Zach Bitter (2:21:37.520)
like maybe the first week in august because that gives me kind of three weeks to let things kind
Zach Bitter (2:21:40.880)
of settle down from that but then it's crazy this is incredible it's it's actually interesting
Zach Bitter (2:21:46.080)
because like if i did let's say i did the simulation now um the problem with that is
Zach Bitter (2:21:50.560)
like the adaptations from just like the breakdown and the strengthening would likely be gone unless
Zach Bitter (2:21:55.440)
i did it again uh so i want to inch up to it so that like and get close enough to the starting
Zach Bitter (2:22:02.080)
date so that i'm still kind of like you know holding on to that adaptation when i start it
Lex Fridman (2:22:07.280)
so then those first few days maybe aren't quite as miserable and you said uh if everything goes
Zach Bitter (2:22:12.960)
amazing and you're challenging the record it'll be like a 42 day run yeah so that's what the record
Zach Bitter (2:22:18.080)
is almost exactly six weeks and that's at 72 and a half miles per day so will you be posting online
Lex Fridman (2:22:23.520)
and like yeah instagram's gonna be a big one i think i might do a few like youtube stuff along
Zach Bitter (2:22:28.960)
the way too um yeah i'm still ironing out exactly how much i think at minimum i'll do i'll do some
Zach Bitter (2:22:35.600)
instagram stuff i think i'll go live on instagram a few times during the day when i take like walking
Zach Bitter (2:22:39.520)
breaks uh partly just to kind of i think keeping people i mean it stays true to the the goal of
Zach Bitter (2:22:45.520)
raising awareness but it also i find when you bring people in there is an added pressure to
Zach Bitter (2:22:52.320)
that but there's also this sense that i've learned from the treadmill experience since we had like
Zach Bitter (2:22:57.600)
a pretty big production for that in the sense that i mean as much as you can turn on a camera
Zach Bitter (2:23:01.840)
in your own house but like the i remember thinking we had like 30 people lined up to
Zach Bitter (2:23:07.280)
come in and guest speak during that and there's points of that where i was like you know you get
Zach Bitter (2:23:12.080)
that voice we talked about the beginning where it's like you know maybe you could quit like
Zach Bitter (2:23:15.680)
you really need to run 100 miles on a treadmill is this really going to be valuable for you
Lex Fridman (2:23:19.840)
and then you think about oh you know what there's uh you know courtney dewalter one of the best
Zach Bitter (2:23:23.760)
female ultra runners to ever exist is taken in the 30 minutes to an hour out of her day
Zach Bitter (2:23:29.600)
to come on in two hours to you know help me you know amplify this event and do i really want to
Zach Bitter (2:23:36.560)
be sending emails out to these people saying hey guys i know you were gracious enough to
Zach Bitter (2:23:39.920)
block out time of your day you know i think there's a little bit of that to do where you're
Zach Bitter (2:23:43.280)
like you're you're you're jumping in with the community that is following along and saying
Zach Bitter (2:23:47.280)
here's how things are going show them the best the worst and everything between and then ultimately
Zach Bitter (2:23:52.000)
have that hold you accountable a little bit too it's like hard to get up in the morning and not
Zach Bitter (2:23:55.200)
go back out i don't know how you are but i had to uh whenever i did any kind of physical stuff
Zach Bitter (2:24:01.040)
like the 48 hour challenge or just any kind of running i hated turning on the camera yeah i hated
Zach Bitter (2:24:08.480)
it like because you have to like smile and be friendly and stuff oh i'm just gonna be super
Zach Bitter (2:24:13.280)
miserable if i'm miserable well that's it so like exactly in some sense that's what people
Zach Bitter (2:24:20.640)
you know we're gonna get a happy zac or an angry exactly it's like you're making bets
Lex Fridman (2:24:24.720)
and i'm sure there'll be some days maybe not many maybe very few where you're truly happy with
Zach Bitter (2:24:31.920)
yourself like for some weird ecstatic reason maybe if you get over the hump whatever that you mentioned
Zach Bitter (2:24:38.800)
that this dip i mean it's it's fascinating how many how much suffering this actually entails
Zach Bitter (2:24:44.640)
i wonder well and one thing i'm gonna definitely try to leverage to my advantage and one of the
Zach Bitter (2:24:50.080)
reasons why i think fight for the forgotten was the charity that really triggered me to decide to
Zach Bitter (2:24:55.360)
do this the transcontinental route was something i learned about early in my ultra running career
Lex Fridman (2:25:00.480)
and i thought to myself i want to do that someday but it was one of those kind of far off distance
Zach Bitter (2:25:04.320)
things that had never really like actualized in your mind until you put a date down or
Zach Bitter (2:25:08.080)
you know mention it on the joe rogan experience or something like that
Zach Bitter (2:25:11.200)
when then it then it's like people want to know when is this happening and uh um you know what i
Zach Bitter (2:25:17.280)
try to think about is you know the reason justin identified the pygmy tribe was because they were
Zach Bitter (2:25:23.920)
super forgotten where you know we think about just like some of these third world countries where
Zach Bitter (2:25:29.120)
it's a scenario of like some people it's easy for us here in the us to think to ourselves well why
Zach Bitter (2:25:34.960)
don't they just industrialize why don't they just like you know start to innovate a bit why are they
Lex Fridman (2:25:39.760)
so primitive what's wrong with them and in reality like when you take uh when you scale things down
Zach Bitter (2:25:45.920)
to the degree where you need the entire day because of the situation you're in just to take
Zach Bitter (2:25:52.160)
care of your basic needs of water and food you never get the opportunity to even build a real
Zach Bitter (2:25:57.760)
like establishment or you know a build on that like you need you need the free time or you need
Zach Bitter (2:26:03.360)
a portion of your population to have the free time available to innovate and the pygmy tribe just
Zach Bitter (2:26:08.720)
hadn't had that historically in fact they weren't even considered humans by like the local government
Zach Bitter (2:26:12.960)
for quite some time and you know the people that really pay the price in some of these situations
Zach Bitter (2:26:17.200)
are the women because they're the ones that get saddled with like the water gathering and things
Zach Bitter (2:26:21.200)
like that so the reason that justin picked wells to build was because he thought to himself if we
Zach Bitter (2:26:26.080)
can get them wells then now these women don't spend all day walking and carrying water now they
Zach Bitter (2:26:32.000)
can just get that water and now we have half the population freed up for other things now maybe they
Zach Bitter (2:26:36.400)
can start farms they can build some housing and stuff like that and it just it exponentially
Zach Bitter (2:26:41.520)
improves once you take care of some of those big key early things so when i'm thinking about like
Zach Bitter (2:26:47.760)
you know do i really need to go out here and travel another 12 hours a day my mind is going
Zach Bitter (2:26:51.360)
to hopefully go to well if one of those women woke up in the pygmy tribe one morning deciding you
Zach Bitter (2:26:55.920)
know what do i really need to go get water today well yeah you do you really do have to yeah you're
Zach Bitter (2:27:00.960)
running for that uh huh yeah and that that will give you fuel hopefully but yeah yeah i mean the
Zach Bitter (2:27:07.120)
reality is always there where i don't have to do it like they do have to do it so you know but i
Zach Bitter (2:27:12.800)
think just keeping that perspective it it puts us back to the beginning where it's this is one of
Zach Bitter (2:27:20.080)
those situations where i think it's like uh a no quit situation you have to put yourself in a no
Zach Bitter (2:27:25.680)
quit situation here because it's uh you know it's just bigger than you i can't wait to see like the
Zach Bitter (2:27:31.920)
dark places you go i mean there's some yeah the the quit situations and hopefully we get to have
Zach Bitter (2:27:38.640)
a glimpse of those because i think those are really inspiring when somebody is uh both gets
Zach Bitter (2:27:44.000)
broken by them because you know how tough you are but also is almost broken and overcomes it i mean
Zach Bitter (2:27:49.680)
that's just fascinating stories i can't wait i i know does joan know you're doing this by the way
Zach Bitter (2:27:55.040)
yeah i sent him i sent him a note a while back because he was the first spot i mentioned it on
Lex Fridman (2:27:59.440)
so i think he knows i'm not sure if he's following along about the exact starting date or not you will
Zach Bitter (2:28:03.520)
know this is great you probably think you're a crazy uh mfr for doing this but uh i think you
Zach Bitter (2:28:11.920)
love it and i think i love it and i think the world will love it ridiculous question who's the
Zach Bitter (2:28:16.800)
greatest endurance runner or endurance athlete of all time oh that's a good question um i think
Zach Bitter (2:28:25.920)
i'd probably go maybe two directions here uh i think uh heli geber lassie is one of the best
Zach Bitter (2:28:36.400)
in my opinion because just i mean 27 world records like like not all the different distance but like
Zach Bitter (2:28:46.320)
braking and rebraking and that sort of stuff um i mean he ran two what was it 203
Zach Bitter (2:28:52.880)
359 before the shoe technology came in that is estimated at anywhere between a two to eight
Zach Bitter (2:28:58.720)
percent performance advantage i'm talking about a two hour marathon 203 yep two hour three minutes
Zach Bitter (2:29:04.160)
yeah so he did that with the old shoe technology which uh essentially dates back to anything if
Zach Bitter (2:29:10.080)
if you were a nike athlete it could date back to as early as i think early 2016 is when the first
Zach Bitter (2:29:16.240)
prototype started showing up uh so if you're before that in your career you were using you're
Zach Bitter (2:29:21.120)
guaranteed to be using the old shoe technology um and i mean just the range of it too and uh
Lex Fridman (2:29:27.920)
yeah it's it's hard i mean there's there it's uh is he a marathon runner purely
Zach Bitter (2:29:32.320)
no he did everything that's why i pick him i think because he he he went everywhere
Zach Bitter (2:29:36.000)
everything from the 800 and is like at a national level yeah at a national level i don't he wasn't
Zach Bitter (2:29:40.960)
competing at like olympics or anything in the 800 but he was he was mostly like 5k to marathon
Zach Bitter (2:29:46.560)
um yeah yeah so just incredible i mean i i could go a totally different direction too i think like
Zach Bitter (2:29:52.800)
steve prefontaine stands out in as an american runner just because if you look at it outside
Zach Bitter (2:29:57.600)
of just like performances and stuff like that i think um he basically like you can't find an
Zach Bitter (2:30:06.160)
american male runner who probably didn't get some motivation or some catalyst into their running
Zach Bitter (2:30:13.760)
journey from a prefontaine story or what would you say is inspiring about prefontaine uh like from the
Zach Bitter (2:30:19.120)
philosophy from the technique from his story uh i think there's a few things i mean there's a lot
Zach Bitter (2:30:24.880)
of things which is why he is who he is it's uh one was just his attitude about it where um he wasn't
Zach Bitter (2:30:30.320)
like this picture ask runner uh i mean he was obviously talented but you know you have the
Zach Bitter (2:30:36.000)
perfect story of like he wanted to be good at something you like most american kids tried
Zach Bitter (2:30:40.160)
football was no hard work was gonna get prefontaine starting in varsity for football starts running
Zach Bitter (2:30:47.120)
fell in love with the mile uh his college coach told him no you're not gonna be a miler you're
Zach Bitter (2:30:52.080)
gonna be a 5k guy and he popularized the 5k in the united states or three mile in some cases
Lex Fridman (2:30:57.840)
and uh i mean he the way he would race i think is what really made him interesting for folks
Zach Bitter (2:31:03.760)
where he would he was just like all guts runner where he's like he's like i mean one of his famous
Zach Bitter (2:31:08.480)
quotes was like if you if you beat me you're gonna have to bleed to do it because he's gonna be an
Zach Bitter (2:31:12.880)
all guts race in in a sport where it gets very tactical at times especially at the like national
Zach Bitter (2:31:18.080)
or i shouldn't say national but at the like competition level the championship level where
Zach Bitter (2:31:23.120)
it's like kind of more of a sit and kick approach a lot of times where everyone's kind of waiting
Zach Bitter (2:31:26.960)
for someone to make a move like pre was gonna make a move really early yeah so this idea of
Zach Bitter (2:31:30.960)
leading from the front which i guess is tactically really a bad idea well from a
Zach Bitter (2:31:36.480)
from a running a pr standpoint it's a bad idea in most cases but so a race i guess is not just about
Zach Bitter (2:31:45.040)
the pr so race winning in a lot of cases and that's what he thought was going to put him in
Zach Bitter (2:31:49.920)
the best advantage to win i think it's just the run from the front i mean what what do you because
Zach Bitter (2:31:53.520)
you mentioned this uh the 100 mile you ran you were in second place and then in 90s you were
Zach Bitter (2:32:00.000)
able to get to the first place how hard is it to run when you're in first place you know i think
Zach Bitter (2:32:06.640)
this is really different some people thrive under it where it's like for them i mean like i talked
Zach Bitter (2:32:11.200)
about jim walsh before i think he loves being in the front if he's in the front he loves it that's
Zach Bitter (2:32:15.520)
where he's excited that's where he knows he's he's doing what he's doing where he's pushing his limits
Lex Fridman (2:32:20.320)
and things like that uh pre was probably the same way and i think there's other folks who are much
Zach Bitter (2:32:25.600)
more comfortable kind of saying let's let things settle down here a little bit and then i'll make
Zach Bitter (2:32:30.480)
my move when it's time to make my move or they think of it as and this is a very important i
Zach Bitter (2:32:35.520)
think lesson for for the average ultra runner is just like knowing what you're capable of
Zach Bitter (2:32:40.800)
is going to be an important piece to the puzzle because you can like you you you can try to say
Zach Bitter (2:32:47.280)
i want to run faster than i'm capable of in an early part of a hundred miler but then you're
Zach Bitter (2:32:52.240)
going to pay for it at the end so really unless you're trying to go for the win and that's a
Zach Bitter (2:32:56.320)
tactic that you think is going to produce a win versus trying to run your fastest time you got
Zach Bitter (2:33:00.400)
to run within yourself within your parameters obviously there's a big question about where
Zach Bitter (2:33:04.800)
those parameters are in a lot of cases which makes ultra marathon even more interesting because it's
Zach Bitter (2:33:08.720)
like there's so much unknown about it it's like well maybe you can go faster and we just don't
Zach Bitter (2:33:12.640)
know yet so there's in the face of that uncertainty there's something admirable like it was with
Zach Bitter (2:33:17.760)
prefontaine where you take the risk and run faster than you know you you think you might be able to
Zach Bitter (2:33:25.040)
run in terms of pace that you can hold so push the pace that's possible yeah explore the unknown
Zach Bitter (2:33:32.320)
explore it's like a pioneer spirit right yeah you know the next frontier kind of a thing but
Zach Bitter (2:33:37.600)
i mean prefontaine also there's other angles with him too where he was like in the amateur era where
Zach Bitter (2:33:42.720)
to be an olympian you couldn't be pro so he's turning down i mean the guy was on food stamps
Lex Fridman (2:33:47.200)
and living in a trailer because he wanted to run at the olympics and there was a lot of like
Zach Bitter (2:33:52.000)
politics involved with not being able to take take sponsorship money and things like that which
Zach Bitter (2:33:56.160)
has changed since then but so he was huge in the movement for that to kind of like you know have a
Zach Bitter (2:34:03.680)
situation where now as an athlete you can finish in most cases finish college sign a big contract
Zach Bitter (2:34:09.840)
with you know a sponsor and then also still compete in the olympic games and go to the events
Zach Bitter (2:34:14.320)
that are actually ones that are going to likely catapult your career and most of the olympic
Zach Bitter (2:34:18.000)
distance endurance events so so he just revolutionized the sport and then to add even
Zach Bitter (2:34:22.080)
more flavor to the whole thing i mean he died a very premature death he got a car accident and
Zach Bitter (2:34:27.600)
died before he would have likely probably medaled at the olympics so he and there is a tragedy the
Zach Bitter (2:34:33.760)
fact that he didn't yeah well he was fourth place at the olympics the prior his first go of it and
Zach Bitter (2:34:40.800)
it was kind of one of those things where it's like fourth place at the olympics is the first man
Zach Bitter (2:34:44.160)
looking out of the first woman looking out and for a guy that had as much hype as him i think
Zach Bitter (2:34:48.320)
like a medal was something he really wanted to take home with him there and especially how that
Zach Bitter (2:34:52.640)
race went i mean yeah i don't know it's it's it's tragic the whole thing but that's one of the things
Zach Bitter (2:34:58.400)
that makes olympics amazing is the tragedy of it like one race decides the story of a lifetime which
Zach Bitter (2:35:04.880)
is like yeah that's why it's that's why it's amazing even if a lot of people get hurt because of it
Zach Bitter (2:35:12.640)
tragedy makes the the triumph special right yeah and well it makes i mean it makes life
Zach Bitter (2:35:19.680)
like a movie almost exactly you know if everything's all sunshine and rainbows then
Zach Bitter (2:35:23.920)
it's not as entertaining to watch yeah there's no adversity to overcome you mentioned shoe technology
Lex Fridman (2:35:28.560)
how much has shoe technology advanced through the past few decades how much has it changed running
Zach Bitter (2:35:34.880)
generally but also running like ultra marathon running i would say an ultra running it's had
Zach Bitter (2:35:41.040)
much of a less of an impact because ultra running is still heavily skewed towards the trails so the
Zach Bitter (2:35:49.200)
technology at least from what we know isn't necessarily translating over to these like
Zach Bitter (2:35:53.360)
massive varied terrain certainly not the technical terrain and things like that now on road races
Zach Bitter (2:35:57.840)
flat stuff like the track stuff the roads the run i guess you a runnable trail um where it's
Zach Bitter (2:36:03.760)
like basically crushed limestone more or less uh you definitely get an advantage from it it's uh
Lex Fridman (2:36:08.720)
and essentially what what happened um is in this probably dated back actually before 2015 uh you
Zach Bitter (2:36:16.880)
know nike decided well their their their uh development team uh was ahead of the curve they've
Zach Bitter (2:36:24.080)
developed this new foam they call like a pibak foam uh and they they realized that like when you
Zach Bitter (2:36:30.000)
step down into a shoe the reason like uh racers a lot of times would wear these flats because they're
Zach Bitter (2:36:35.440)
trying to take out any of that lost energy into the foam in the shoe well this foam that nike
Zach Bitter (2:36:41.360)
came out with is so good that it actually returns way more energy than the average foam did to the
Zach Bitter (2:36:47.360)
point where like when they test these things on like force plate treadmills and things like that
Zach Bitter (2:36:51.040)
it's like a depending on the person's gait and some of things like a two to eight percent
Zach Bitter (2:36:55.520)
improvement in performance i mean we've seen records just across the board get broken since
Zach Bitter (2:37:00.560)
this came out all distances basically yeah yeah i i think from at least from the 5k up through
Zach Bitter (2:37:07.600)
the marathon and i mean we've seen some insane improvements in the marathon i think like uh the
Zach Bitter (2:37:13.200)
women's marathon went from what was considered relatively untouchable like 216 to a 214 and
Zach Bitter (2:37:20.400)
i mean like it was like 218 was like just world class like if you could run a 218 marathon as a
Zach Bitter (2:37:26.400)
woman that was like i mean it still is to a degree but then you know now you have someone run a 214
Zach Bitter (2:37:31.600)
like that's a huge and you attributed a lot of that to the the shoe yeah yeah i think there's
Zach Bitter (2:37:36.640)
probably other things that come in mind too like now that people know there's a performance
Zach Bitter (2:37:40.080)
advantage from a mechanical standpoint it's also a confidence thing where it's like oh now i can
Zach Bitter (2:37:44.240)
probably try going five seconds per mile faster and maybe they could have anyway and they just
Zach Bitter (2:37:48.640)
now they think they can so they are so there's probably a little bit of that that's just adding
Zach Bitter (2:37:52.400)
to it do you think there's a lot of extra innovation that's still possible like what yeah
Zach Bitter (2:37:57.360)
if you could do this kind of big leap uh with a little innovation of foam is there other stuff
Zach Bitter (2:38:02.240)
that you can do or further innovation materials that make up the foam yeah so they can definitely
Zach Bitter (2:38:07.200)
go much more advantage they put a cap on it essentially so there was a there's also a carbon
Zach Bitter (2:38:12.880)
plate element to this too where they put like this carbon plate in there in between the foam
Lex Fridman (2:38:16.880)
so like i believe when when kipchiki broke well when they did that that kind of uh uh the sub
Zach Bitter (2:38:24.160)
two hour project he actually had on a shoe if i'm not mistaken that never got to market because
Zach Bitter (2:38:30.160)
they put down some parameters on it after uh before it that one came to market where it was
Zach Bitter (2:38:35.040)
actually like stacked up to i can't remember how many millimeters it was an insane amount and they
Zach Bitter (2:38:40.000)
had like i think maybe even three layer plates in there and that was a nike shoe he was wearing yeah
Zach Bitter (2:38:44.640)
yeah so what makes it kind of controversial or difficult is nike came out with these prototypes
Lex Fridman (2:38:50.960)
so a prototype for people don't understand shoes like these these companies they'll develop a shoe
Lex Fridman (2:38:55.040)
and it usually takes like somewhere in the neighborhood of like probably 18 months to hit
Zach Bitter (2:38:59.520)
the market so if you're like a sponsored athlete or work for the company you can get your hands
Zach Bitter (2:39:05.120)
on these shoes before they actually come to market so we had an issue i think this wasn't
Zach Bitter (2:39:09.920)
necessarily as big of an issue in the ultra running community but uh in the track and field olympic
Zach Bitter (2:39:14.880)
distance stuff was a big issue because you had nike athletes having these prototype shoes before
Zach Bitter (2:39:20.480)
anyone could get them and then you had athletes were sponsored by these other brands who couldn't
Zach Bitter (2:39:24.400)
wear them even if even when they did come to market so then we had this like chase to catch up
Zach Bitter (2:39:29.760)
where uh other companies are starting to make their own version of it and now we're getting to
Zach Bitter (2:39:34.080)
a point where most companies have a version of that shoe um but we had a huge transition phase
Zach Bitter (2:39:41.600)
that impacted the olympics big time i mean think of here here's a here's an example of it uh there's
Zach Bitter (2:39:47.760)
a there was a an athlete cara goucher um she was not she was a nike athlete wasn't uh when they
Zach Bitter (2:39:55.280)
came out with this shoe and she ran the olympic trial marathon and got fourth place the first
Zach Bitter (2:40:01.680)
person out and uh two of the people had ever had that shoe on and she was maybe a minute or two like
Zach Bitter (2:40:07.680)
i'd have to look to see exactly but it was within the the performance advantage range and so you
Zach Bitter (2:40:12.320)
could argue that she was the first person in modern running to lose an olympic spot due to
Zach Bitter (2:40:17.840)
a technological disadvantage wow and and it's like i mean it's one of those yeah i mean it's one of
Zach Bitter (2:40:24.000)
those things where like um it's it's a transition right so there's gonna be bumpy road and there's
Zach Bitter (2:40:30.720)
gonna be people that get caught in that transition that it's unfortunate for but it's also like uh
Zach Bitter (2:40:36.800)
you know once everything does catch up and every shoe company has a version of this there's still
Zach Bitter (2:40:41.680)
problems i mean these are incredibly expensive shoes it's like a 250 shoe so it's like at what
Zach Bitter (2:40:46.080)
point do you tell like a wealthy family with a high school kid that you know you can get that
Zach Bitter (2:40:51.600)
250 shoe but then you go and this kid's family can barely afford a pair of shoes for them much
Zach Bitter (2:40:55.680)
less a 250 parachute like where do we draw that line and that sort of stuff um also just here's
Zach Bitter (2:41:03.040)
the other big one like let's i mean two to eight percent is a massive range what if you're on the
Zach Bitter (2:41:07.280)
two percent versus someone's on the eight percent you know chances are if you're you know blowing
Zach Bitter (2:41:12.080)
a record out of the water you're probably closer to that high end percentage versus someone who's
Zach Bitter (2:41:16.960)
maybe getting incremental gains you're probably closer to that lower end so is it fair to have
Zach Bitter (2:41:21.520)
a piece of equipment that has that big of a range when we're talking about less than a percent
Zach Bitter (2:41:25.920)
determining these races when all is held constant those are fascinating like philosophical questions
Zach Bitter (2:41:30.640)
that i think it's nice to solve that for the shoe or to raise those questions for a shoe
Zach Bitter (2:41:35.760)
because the more complicated place where they will be raised is probably like genetics
Zach Bitter (2:41:40.160)
genetic engineering all those kinds of things yeah it'll get a lot more complicated so it's
Zach Bitter (2:41:45.520)
nice when you have like a particular piece of technology that's just like right there it's
Zach Bitter (2:41:49.040)
a shoe we can understand it we can study it right we may be coming on the precipice of like
Zach Bitter (2:41:55.120)
human powered sport performance is no longer being something that we like look at as this
Zach Bitter (2:41:59.840)
like pinnacle of uh like i guess i don't maybe entertainment's the wrong word but like is that
Zach Bitter (2:42:05.520)
a pursuit you know do we end up just going a different direction i mean i think it's like
Zach Bitter (2:42:10.400)
it's so hard for us to think about that right now because it's so part of like the culture
Lex Fridman (2:42:14.000)
and the lifestyle of the average person where like sport is a hobby of theirs as well as a
Zach Bitter (2:42:19.520)
passion to follow and it's like how complicated does it need to get before people lose that
Zach Bitter (2:42:25.440)
interest and and there could be a future where most of the olympics is esports somebody told me
Zach Bitter (2:42:31.120)
that esports is in the olympics i've been meaning to look this up which is you know like what video
Lex Fridman (2:42:36.960)
so video games are in the olympics yeah yeah it could be as like a trial that they're doing um
Zach Bitter (2:42:44.240)
yeah if this is true i'm trying in real time look it up but if this esports joining olympics in 2024
Zach Bitter (2:42:51.840)
wow so that could be just a that could be a fun side thing but it could be a first step into a
Zach Bitter (2:42:59.760)
complete transformation what sports mean yeah because you can control video games better than
Zach Bitter (2:43:03.680)
you control for genetics and humans well and in reality we've been dealing with this problem in
Zach Bitter (2:43:09.840)
other areas just with the performance enhancing side of things with drugs and all that stuff too
Lex Fridman (2:43:14.160)
and anyway that that conversation's flared back up with track and field too where we are seeing a lot
Zach Bitter (2:43:19.040)
of records get broken a lot of it probably is to shoot technology but you know in 2020 with the
Zach Bitter (2:43:23.680)
covid stuff you have all these out of competition testing protocols that a lot of these top tier
Zach Bitter (2:43:28.800)
olympic athletes are getting uh to try to eliminate like if you just do inter competition
Zach Bitter (2:43:34.880)
testing like there's potential for people to do things that are uh going to give them a
Zach Bitter (2:43:40.080)
performance advantage but not going to show up on that test on the day of or after their race where
Zach Bitter (2:43:45.520)
now you have these like limitations of being able to test so do we have a like a group of athletes
Zach Bitter (2:43:50.320)
now who decide oh i'm not going to get tested in 2020 do the covid restrictions this is the time
Zach Bitter (2:43:54.880)
to dope up and then you know hit some stride and some records and then you taper back off when they
Zach Bitter (2:43:59.360)
get this thing fired back up again and so there may be some of that as well and i mean that's
Zach Bitter (2:44:03.360)
always been an ongoing problem and yeah so the boost you get from performance enhancing drugs
Zach Bitter (2:44:07.600)
could be tying you relative to the stuff we have in the future right yeah so you might be the last
Zach Bitter (2:44:11.680)
generation of like natural unmodified humans that were running and who knows maybe that's already
Zach Bitter (2:44:19.680)
over who knows who's who's modified that that's that's true you might we might be living through
Zach Bitter (2:44:25.760)
that transition to the new nike shoe but broadly defined yeah so you'll be uh in some sense in in
Zach Bitter (2:44:33.360)
the history books as uh humans used to run without any modifications they used to destroy their body
Lex Fridman (2:44:40.000)
and let it recover and then do it again and they used to be impressed with a with an 11 hour
Zach Bitter (2:44:46.000)
an 100 mile time when we could do it in under an hour now yeah yeah so uh but nevertheless it
Zach Bitter (2:44:54.320)
is incredible the four mile the four minute mile was incredibly impressive uh the i really love
Zach Bitter (2:45:01.600)
the 11 hour mark for the 100 miler and the two hour marathon by most people um for the longest
Zach Bitter (2:45:09.680)
time will start to be impossible you know there's still people that think it's impossible with under
Zach Bitter (2:45:14.640)
certain constraints so uh uh eliot kipchoge of kenya as you mentioned ran a one hour 59 minute
Zach Bitter (2:45:23.920)
40 second marathon but he had like you said the prototype shoes and he had the the the pace
Zach Bitter (2:45:32.400)
setters yeah i don't know how essential that is but it seems quite essential do you think it's
Zach Bitter (2:45:37.680)
possible first of all what do you think about that accomplishment uh and he is one of the greatest if
Zach Bitter (2:45:43.280)
not the greatest marathon runners of all time what do you think about that accomplishment and
Lex Fridman (2:45:47.840)
do you think it's possible to run a two hour marathon without any assistance yeah i mean
Zach Bitter (2:45:53.120)
i think yeah there's no question about it regardless of technology he's world class if
Zach Bitter (2:45:57.520)
not the best um the i think he i think he could go under two or someone equivalent to him could
Zach Bitter (2:46:06.640)
go under two hours with with the shoe technology probably what it'll take is it'll take a fast
Zach Bitter (2:46:14.080)
course a course that has like very few tangents because like you know turning on a course they
Zach Bitter (2:46:20.400)
estimate adds about a percent to the to the distance so you know when we're talking about
Zach Bitter (2:46:25.360)
a marathon you're getting up to like a quarter mile extra running you know that alone could
Zach Bitter (2:46:29.440)
potentially put you down near near too flat based on what you know we're seeing because i mean
Zach Bitter (2:46:34.640)
kip jaggi he's got a was it 201 40 i believe is his actual world record where it's actually like
Zach Bitter (2:46:41.680)
you know certified so i mean he's right on the door knocking knocking on the door there um yeah
Zach Bitter (2:46:47.360)
the prototype he had since then they put in a regulation where you can't stack a shoe for the
Zach Bitter (2:46:51.680)
roads more than 40 millimeters so you can only have so much of that energy returning foam and
Zach Bitter (2:46:56.400)
you can only have i think one carbon plate in there now uh so that puts a little bit of a
Zach Bitter (2:47:02.160)
ceiling on that technological thing uh but but who knows what else will come out that and and
Lex Fridman (2:47:08.240)
and to be honest who comes out with it because the fact that nike came out with this technology
Zach Bitter (2:47:13.040)
is the reason why it's being allowed to be used if that would have been like you know another
Zach Bitter (2:47:17.760)
running company that that came out with it i'm sure the the regulations would have been slapped
Zach Bitter (2:47:22.480)
down on it immediately and they would have probably just thrown it out all together would
Zach Bitter (2:47:25.360)
have been this politics yeah oh yeah well and i mean it's it you can go you can go super like
Zach Bitter (2:47:32.240)
you know negative with that and say like hey like this is like this is terrible or this is like super
Zach Bitter (2:47:37.920)
nefarious when in reality it's like you know you have a company that has you know billions of
Zach Bitter (2:47:43.360)
dollars and is interested enough in the sport that otherwise doesn't generate a ton of revenue
Zach Bitter (2:47:48.800)
to you know pick up a big tab and support like uh you know track and field and things like that but
Zach Bitter (2:47:55.040)
you know with that you know you you want to be the guy who says yeah thanks for the millions
Lex Fridman (2:48:00.960)
and millions of dollars but we're gonna all those years and money you spent on that phone
Zach Bitter (2:48:06.320)
yeah you wasted it we're not gonna let you use it but you know if you're another company who uh
Zach Bitter (2:48:11.200)
you know revolutionizes the sport in potentially a negative way uh you know maybe maybe you say no
Zach Bitter (2:48:17.040)
to them so it gets interesting that's the way that's how it always happens yeah yeah there's
Zach Bitter (2:48:21.920)
really no way around i think phil mephiton i think it's him that he wrote a book about a
Zach Bitter (2:48:25.680)
two hour marathon what are the limits how fast could we run and i think he puts it like an hour
Lex Fridman (2:48:30.320)
and 42 minutes something like that or 40 something minutes it's kind of interesting question uh of
Lex Fridman (2:48:35.440)
what are the limits uh do you think do you think we'll just keep pushing the limits of what humans
Zach Bitter (2:48:41.600)
are capable of in the ultras in the marathon is this just like the way yeah the uh the way of
Zach Bitter (2:48:48.000)
sport i think ultra for sure because that is a vastly growing sport and it's there's
Zach Bitter (2:48:56.320)
there's a lot of potential for much bigger popular much pool bigger pool of like talent to pull from
Zach Bitter (2:49:02.720)
uh that could really push the needle down on some of these performances and things like that
Zach Bitter (2:49:07.760)
uh especially as it becomes more popular if if people start realizing or i shouldn't say realizing
Lex Fridman (2:49:13.200)
but if a scenario happens where like oh i'm one of the best endurance athletes in the world i make
Zach Bitter (2:49:17.920)
more money running ultra marathons than i do running the marathon then you know all of a
Zach Bitter (2:49:21.840)
sudden we see every record get broken in a matter of a couple of years uh but the the for the marathon
Zach Bitter (2:49:29.200)
i mean it's gonna get faster i think but like to what degree is so hard to know it's very hard to
Zach Bitter (2:49:35.920)
know and the one hour and 40 minutes seems like that's pretty fast yes that's very fast i mean
Zach Bitter (2:49:40.880)
for folks for some perspective there the current world record is like in the 440s per mile per mile
Zach Bitter (2:49:47.360)
like just to add a little flavor to that you're basically sprinting yeah i mean go out to a track
Lex Fridman (2:49:53.120)
and run one lap as fast as you can and then reflect on what time you get and realize like
Zach Bitter (2:49:59.520)
the world record for the marathon is that is that lap at just over 70 seconds per lap so a minute
Lex Fridman (2:50:07.920)
and 10 just over that but you're doing it 26.2 miles so so over a hundred times it's mind boggling
Lex Fridman (2:50:15.360)
but watching elliot kipchoge just first of all he was like smiling at the end of it so the there's
Zach Bitter (2:50:20.880)
an extreme efficiency here too so he's not he's able to just find the right way to maximize yeah
Zach Bitter (2:50:28.880)
maximize efficiency it makes it look easy i mean that that's true for basically every olympic
Zach Bitter (2:50:33.920)
athlete when you watch gymnasts they kind of make it look easy yeah but there's like tens if not
Zach Bitter (2:50:40.720)
hundreds of thousands of hours behind that training yeah just to be comfortable enough to even attempt
Zach Bitter (2:50:45.600)
some of the moves they do in gymnastics is mind boggling that one is super awesome because uh
Lex Fridman (2:50:50.880)
how tragic it is like one little slip up yeah four years of work and your route it's all gone
Zach Bitter (2:50:57.120)
not just four years of work for many of them a lifetime a lifetime of work and they're teenagers
Lex Fridman (2:51:02.240)
and they're teenagers and they get dedicated everything to it that's that's what makes the
Zach Bitter (2:51:08.640)
pursuits of humans so fascinating we kind of talked about this a little bit already but
Zach Bitter (2:51:14.080)
is there something that stands out to you as one of the hardest things you've had to overcome
Zach Bitter (2:51:19.040)
in all the either training or the competing that you've done has there been moments that
Zach Bitter (2:51:23.840)
kind of stand out where you're proud of yourself that that you were truly tested and you overcame
Zach Bitter (2:51:30.160)
it i think i'd be more inclined just because it stands out to me much bigger than any one like
Zach Bitter (2:51:36.400)
hard decision or outcome i had from a particular race is just like the trajectory of like you know
Zach Bitter (2:51:43.520)
doing what i'm doing now is so much different from what i would have ever expected uh you know
Zach Bitter (2:51:49.760)
i mean i was a talented enough runner where i could make the state meet by my senior year at a
Zach Bitter (2:51:54.080)
small division three school and you know compete at a division three college and be pretty modest
Zach Bitter (2:52:00.160)
talent comparative to my to my peers at the top level of division three to think that like i'd be
Zach Bitter (2:52:06.800)
doing anything that was revolved around running as as an occupation is is uh i still second guess
Zach Bitter (2:52:13.440)
that that's actually occurring makes me wonder about the whole simulation theory thing it's like
Zach Bitter (2:52:18.320)
who's got my joystick and exactly uh but they got cheat codes yeah exactly yeah because i mean i
Zach Bitter (2:52:25.040)
went to school to be a teacher and i really loved that profession i taught for about five years and
Zach Bitter (2:52:28.960)
then i got to a point where you know some of it's just perfect timing too like the sport gained
Zach Bitter (2:52:33.200)
enough popularity where there's enough money in it where like i could start a coaching business i
Zach Bitter (2:52:36.960)
could get sponsorships and things like that and actually look at it and say financially i can make
Zach Bitter (2:52:41.760)
a go of this or at least risk it but there's such a fine line between like deciding to do that or
Zach Bitter (2:52:48.800)
kind of staying comfortable because uh i mean i was at the perfect teaching spot for me i was at
Zach Bitter (2:52:53.360)
this uh like project based learning school and just outside of madison wisconsin loved it um one
Zach Bitter (2:52:59.120)
of the hardest decisions my life to make was to step away from that to pursue running and more
Zach Bitter (2:53:02.720)
holistically um and i mean i almost didn't i had a co teacher who was uh i was thinking myself i
Zach Bitter (2:53:08.720)
knew that was like a decision i was gonna have to make the next few years but it was such an easy
Zach Bitter (2:53:12.080)
decision to say well wait one more year and he was just like he was a little more of a free spirit
Zach Bitter (2:53:16.800)
than i was certainly at the time he's like dude what are you waiting for just go why are you here
Zach Bitter (2:53:21.680)
like like after i told him that he like every time we'd we'd i'd come into i'd come into school the
Zach Bitter (2:53:26.480)
next day and he'd be like why are you still here but i mean that was there's a tongue in cheek for
Zach Bitter (2:53:31.440)
sure but uh but it's hard to know that you're going to be successful right in that kind of
Zach Bitter (2:53:35.280)
leap given your like you know because it's easier when you're like an ultra performer early on but
Zach Bitter (2:53:43.200)
to have the faith that you can accomplish something in some regards it's a blessing in the sense that
Zach Bitter (2:53:48.960)
like uh you know failing would have been fairly predictable right whereas if like you know i always
Zach Bitter (2:53:56.480)
wonder i mean i think of these like especially the big sports like baseball football and basketball
Lex Fridman (2:54:01.520)
and you get you know guys who guys and girls who are like identified in like early high school as
Zach Bitter (2:54:08.960)
being the next and it's like what kind of pressure is that to think like well if i'm not like literally
Zach Bitter (2:54:16.080)
one of the best players in the nba in 10 years i failed yeah it's just mind boggling to think if
Zach Bitter (2:54:20.800)
i'm not one of the best at one of the most competitive sports on the planet in what is an
Zach Bitter (2:54:25.440)
athletic i think an athletic state of an nba basketball player is probably one of the most
Zach Bitter (2:54:30.240)
athletic human beings on the planet and to know like at in a teenage year that your your your
Zach Bitter (2:54:36.720)
your success bar is being the best one of the best in the league or the best ever and that
Zach Bitter (2:54:41.680)
conversation is floating around everywhere you look and see versus being able to kind of quietly
Zach Bitter (2:54:46.720)
fail and go back to teaching this makes it a little more digestible i think you have a little
Zach Bitter (2:54:51.200)
bit of more freedom to be great right nobody's expecting you to be right uh is there from that
Zach Bitter (2:54:57.440)
is there advice you can give to young people today high schoolers college students taking on
Zach Bitter (2:55:04.080)
trying to figure out their career trying to figure out their life advice on how to succeed in either
Zach Bitter (2:55:10.400)
yeah i think uh you know one thing i was always interested when i was teaching was like you'd
Zach Bitter (2:55:14.880)
have these you'd have students who had like interests they had what they were good at and
Zach Bitter (2:55:19.680)
sometimes those ran in in unison with one another other times they didn't and it was always
Zach Bitter (2:55:24.880)
interesting to me when you'd have a student who's like i'm really into like you know guitar or i'm
Zach Bitter (2:55:30.240)
really into skateboarding or something like that where it's like pretty small like success rate on
Zach Bitter (2:55:35.440)
that avenue versus what you could maybe accomplish by focusing on just something like a little more
Zach Bitter (2:55:40.240)
standard and i think like really like besides the likelihood of it becoming something you can turn
Zach Bitter (2:55:48.400)
into a profession or not you should just ask yourself like is this something that i want to
Zach Bitter (2:55:52.560)
spend my free time doing uh and because if it is then you want to keep that in your life because
Zach Bitter (2:55:59.120)
that's something that's rewarding motivating it might be the catalyst that gets you out of
Zach Bitter (2:56:02.640)
bed in the morning and you know go to another job in order to go do that thing afterwards and i think
Zach Bitter (2:56:06.880)
nowadays we're getting to a point where like the your reach ability from even a really small like
Zach Bitter (2:56:16.480)
unmonetized thing previously is now an option where if like you live in a city where there's
Zach Bitter (2:56:22.480)
only two other people interested in your topic of area so you're not gonna be able to turn into a
Zach Bitter (2:56:25.840)
job now with the internet you have the world at your disposal so that two to three people in every
Zach Bitter (2:56:31.200)
town can turn into thousands tens of thousands hundreds of millions of people and if you
Zach Bitter (2:56:35.840)
really focus your time and energy into that thing then you know who knows where you can go and how
Zach Bitter (2:56:40.160)
much more enjoyable your life can be if you're able to turn your career into a passion of yours
Lex Fridman (2:56:43.760)
so i think like that is something i would tell tell people um focus on that see the thing you're
Zach Bitter (2:56:50.880)
good at and you kind of sparks that flame and uh go with that even if society doesn't really want
Zach Bitter (2:56:57.760)
you to uh like it's non traditional uh and the odds are low of like traditionally defined success
Zach Bitter (2:57:06.080)
just do that thing i've struggled with that it's like it was always clear especially like in school
Zach Bitter (2:57:11.840)
there's stuff i'm actually good at and stuff that the world wants me to do right yeah and i kept
Zach Bitter (2:57:16.640)
doing the world wanted me to be a plumber when i took that test my sophomore year but even like
Zach Bitter (2:57:22.000)
like academically just going to university and uh academia there's certain ways even in in i would
Zach Bitter (2:57:29.120)
say even in the thing you want to do the way you do that thing the world will want you to do in a
Zach Bitter (2:57:35.360)
certain way and even just like finding your way of doing that thing is uh is really powerful like
Zach Bitter (2:57:41.920)
for me the way i do research the way i learn is is different than colleagues of mine and i realized
Zach Bitter (2:57:50.480)
i realized that that i really like to follow things i'm passionate about versus sort of the
Zach Bitter (2:57:55.680)
rigor of studying every like the fundamentals all across the board and building up in castle
Zach Bitter (2:58:01.280)
um on the fundamentals like layer upon layer just there's a bunch of details in the way i
Zach Bitter (2:58:06.480)
pursue the very thing that i currently do that's different than others and it took me quite a long
Zach Bitter (2:58:11.760)
time to accept like you don't need to do it the way everyone else is doing it doesn't not everyone
Zach Bitter (2:58:16.720)
else but the majority of people are telling you to do it because one is beneficial to do it
Zach Bitter (2:58:20.800)
different because then you'll more likely stand out and two like why the hell are you doing it
Zach Bitter (2:58:26.000)
the way it's not working for you yeah yeah you know i saw that all the time when i was teaching
Zach Bitter (2:58:32.080)
i was dual certified i was my my certifications were in history and broadfield social studies so
Zach Bitter (2:58:37.600)
like econ uh psychology history all that stuff and then i also had a certification of special
Zach Bitter (2:58:44.320)
education which was you know people think of special education a lot of times as like oh it's
Zach Bitter (2:58:49.200)
the you know the kid who is not smart enough to do the regular thing when reality it's like
Zach Bitter (2:58:53.920)
i mean there is some you know there's obviously like you know like certain things like down
Zach Bitter (2:58:58.720)
syndrome and stuff like that but like there's also like a huge population of groups of both
Zach Bitter (2:59:03.360)
like gifted and talented on one end of the spectrum where they're incredibly smart and
Zach Bitter (2:59:08.240)
they're like the geniuses but for whatever reason the standard method of learning does not click
Zach Bitter (2:59:13.360)
with them does not work with them and then they just need a slightly different path or maybe
Zach Bitter (2:59:17.840)
a drastically different path and they're gonna just flourish and you have kids that end up
Zach Bitter (2:59:22.320)
falling on the other end where you know maybe it's really difficult for them to be able to read at
Zach Bitter (2:59:27.920)
the speed of other students but if you give them this specific direction they can just thrive in
Zach Bitter (2:59:34.080)
a certain area and just seeing that like the you know like that there's multiple ways to do stuff
Lex Fridman (2:59:40.400)
and there's not necessarily one path to the end is i think such an eye opening thing to learn
Zach Bitter (2:59:45.440)
especially if you learn maybe that's what i should answer the question that you asked me with is you
Zach Bitter (2:59:49.440)
know keep an open mind as to what paths are forward and know that you know maybe just because
Zach Bitter (2:59:55.040)
even if you look to your left you know to the right and all your classmates are successful
Zach Bitter (2:59:58.400)
doing it one way it doesn't necessarily mean that's going to be the way for you
Zach Bitter (30:01.600)
Or does this race allow someone to like hand me a bottle at a certain spot? Or do I have to be in
Zach Bitter (30:07.120)
specific areas to get that type of stuff? And it what ends up doing is it ends up bringing a lot
Zach Bitter (30:12.640)
more variables to the table. And I think it's interesting, because there's always going to be
Zach Bitter (30:17.440)
more variables on the day than you are able to account for. So at a certain degree, you have to
Zach Bitter (30:24.560)
kind of find yourself in a position where I'm going to make sure I take care of the big ones,
Zach Bitter (30:28.400)
or the ones that are like, obviously, I need to be ready for like, my fueling strategy, my hydration
Zach Bitter (30:33.200)
strategy, my pacing strategy, what workouts are going to put me in a position to physiologically
Zach Bitter (30:38.560)
have this process go as well as possible? How am I going to like, you know, hold myself accountable
Zach Bitter (30:43.840)
in aid station transition, so I'm not like having a ton of non moving time versus moving time and
Zach Bitter (30:49.840)
things like that. So there's these like, big variables that you're aware of, and you're trying
Zach Bitter (30:54.240)
to optimize over the space of variables. Yep. So you get to start to play with that. When you're
Zach Bitter (30:58.960)
looking for performance, it's almost like moving from checkers to chess, right? You have like, or
Zach Bitter (31:03.520)
maybe even like connect for something like that, where it goes from just kind of like, well, one
Zach Bitter (31:08.720)
foot in front of the other, and when I get to the next station, I'll just eat whatever looks good,
Zach Bitter (31:12.000)
drink whatever, you know, quenches my thirst, and then move on to the next one to like, well,
Zach Bitter (31:16.560)
which one of these food products is actually going to make me move a little faster to the next
Zach Bitter (31:19.760)
aid station? Or, you know, which one of these pacing strategies is going to get me to the
Zach Bitter (31:24.320)
finish line faster than the other one and that sort of stuff. So it gets more complicated,
Zach Bitter (31:30.800)
more interesting, and in my opinion, anyway, also, there's I mean, but there's a breaking point with
Zach Bitter (31:35.680)
that too, because, like I said, there's an endless number of variables you could account for. And
Zach Bitter (31:40.880)
there's a distance gets longer, that list gets longer too. So you find yourself in this position
Zach Bitter (31:45.600)
where, where you have to at some point say, okay, I've accounted for everything I can reasonably
Zach Bitter (31:50.080)
account for. Now I need to be in a mental space where when something happens that I wasn't able
Zach Bitter (31:54.720)
to account for, I'm able to respond to it with the right decision and keep going and not dwell on it.
Zach Bitter (32:00.240)
Because that's another thing. I mean, you're running slow enough when you're doing 100 miles,
Zach Bitter (32:03.120)
where if you make a mistake, you can sit there and just fixate on that mistake and say, why did I do
Zach Bitter (32:08.560)
that? That cost me 10 minutes, blah, blah, blah, blah. When in reality, what you need to do is that
Zach Bitter (32:12.320)
happened. Everyone else out here is gonna have a situation like that at some point. Mine happened
Zach Bitter (32:16.160)
now. I need to figure out how I can move forward at the fastest sustainable pace and not think about
Lex Fridman (32:22.640)
what happened back there. And that's where I think it gets really interesting. What would you say it
Zach Bitter (32:28.320)
takes to set a world record in the 100 miler? First of all, I think you probably have to focus on that
Zach Bitter (32:34.720)
specific event. I mean, there's the interesting thing about ultra running where it maybe deviates
Zach Bitter (32:40.480)
a bit from just other endurance sports is there's such a wide range. I mean, we talked about a little
Zach Bitter (32:45.280)
bit when I talked about the San Diego 100 versus kind of flat runnable stuff. So can you maybe
Lex Fridman (32:50.240)
paint a picture of what are there's a huge range of different kinds of ultra marathon events?
Lex Fridman (32:55.280)
What are like, the big ones in your mind? So marathon, we know the distance for a marathon.
Zach Bitter (33:01.520)
There's 50k, what are different kinds of there's 100 mile that in your mind, like kind of these
Zach Bitter (33:07.360)
islands where, where people gather off? Yep. Yeah. So there's a few that really stand out. I would
Zach Bitter (33:13.840)
say the three biggest ultra marathons right now, even from a historic, maybe not necessarily a
Zach Bitter (33:18.240)
historical standpoint, but in modern day ultra running is going to be the Western States 100.
Zach Bitter (33:24.160)
That's the biggest, most competitive 100 miler. It's on the trail side of things in the United
Zach Bitter (33:29.120)
States. Then there's ultra trail Mount Blanc, which is probably the most competitive 100 miler on the
Zach Bitter (33:33.680)
planet right now. In previous years, it's been debatable as whether Western States or ultra trail
Zach Bitter (33:37.920)
Mount Blanc is more competitive. I think in the most recent few years, you're just seeing a lot
Zach Bitter (33:41.600)
more like of the bulk of international talent on the trail side of the sport heading over that way.
Lex Fridman (33:47.440)
And then you have the road running side of things where the comrades marathon,
Lex Fridman (33:52.080)
which is technically 56 miles, but they call it the comrades marathon,
Zach Bitter (33:56.720)
is going to generally be the most competitive ultra marathon. The weird thing is the distance
Zach Bitter (34:01.840)
thing, right? Cause most people in the think of endurance sports, they're thinking about
Zach Bitter (34:04.400)
precise distances, like five kilometers, 10 kilometers and all that stuff. And then,
Zach Bitter (34:08.400)
then you get into the ultra running world and it's like, sometimes it's the event. So like
Zach Bitter (34:12.000)
the Western course itself is much more important than the distance, right? Yeah. So the Western
Zach Bitter (34:15.680)
States 100 is actually 100.2 miles, which isn't that big of a deviation when you think about it,
Zach Bitter (34:20.480)
especially when you figure like tangents are going to probably account for more than 0.2 miles on a
Zach Bitter (34:24.000)
hundred mile race. But the ultra trail Mount Blanc, you know, that's listed as a hundred
Zach Bitter (34:29.120)
mile, but it's actually, I think like 104, 105 miles. So, you know, it's more, there's different
Zach Bitter (34:34.400)
cultures too. So the United States is definitely more motivated, I think, to try to get as close
Zach Bitter (34:39.520)
to the exact distance. You're going to hear maybe a little more grumbling. If someone says,
Zach Bitter (34:42.400)
I signed up for this hundred mile and it turned out to be 103 miles versus like over in Europe,
Zach Bitter (34:47.760)
they don't really care too much about the distance. They're more interested in like a
Zach Bitter (34:50.400)
specific route or a loop. Is consistency important in terms of the exact length of the,
Zach Bitter (34:55.440)
of the route? So like you can compare performances from previous years,
Zach Bitter (34:58.800)
or are they a little bit more flexible? Like they redefine the trail from year to year.
Zach Bitter (35:03.360)
Yeah. I mean, it's definitely hard to compare. I mean, there's events that take, for example,
Zach Bitter (35:09.520)
I would say the best ultra marathoner in the world today on the men's side is Jim Walmsley.
Zach Bitter (35:16.080)
The reason I think Jim Walmsley is the best is because he is the most versatile
Lex Fridman (35:20.400)
and not only the most versatile, but he's arguably the best at almost everything up to a hundred
Zach Bitter (35:25.520)
miles. So there's a race called the Angela's crest hundred miler. They, the trail has drastically
Zach Bitter (35:31.920)
changed from when they originally had that event and it's a different time of year. So it's much
Zach Bitter (35:36.320)
warmer on that course. And Jim's not the kind of guy who would sit back and say like, I can't
Zach Bitter (35:42.720)
chase that record. But I think Angela crest, when he looks at the segments and the pacing for that
Zach Bitter (35:46.240)
one, he's like, that one is maybe not even the same event anymore. So you have that, you have
Zach Bitter (35:51.120)
some that are a little more controlled and a little more kind of like preserved, I guess you
Zach Bitter (35:55.360)
would say, but I think it gets really rare on the trail side. I mean, comrades is going to be very
Zach Bitter (35:59.600)
comparable from one year to the next because that's a road race. And that's where you get,
Zach Bitter (36:03.440)
you maybe get like the split in the sport from people who really want that kind of like,
Zach Bitter (36:07.600)
I want to compare myself to someone who ran this course in 1970 versus like someone who just says,
Zach Bitter (36:14.240)
I want to be competitive today. And you know, maybe the weather is going to be 30 degrees
Zach Bitter (36:19.920)
different from one year to the next on this course. But if I beat everyone on this day,
Zach Bitter (36:23.040)
then I'm the champion of that big name race, like ultra trail Montblanc or Western States,
Zach Bitter (36:26.640)
100. And my legacy will be cemented because I won that big race. And it doesn't matter when
Zach Bitter (36:31.200)
or how the course was or what the time even was to some degree. When you were optimizing
Zach Bitter (36:35.280)
for trying to set the world record in the hundred miler, were you doing like analysis of maybe like
Lex Fridman (36:43.760)
what were the variables you were looking at? Is it more in the realm of the actual race day,
Zach Bitter (36:49.600)
the track, what it looks like versus like the variables of the training leading up to the,
Zach Bitter (36:56.480)
to the race? I mean, it evolved a bit. Like, I think the, as I learned more about just like,
Lex Fridman (37:01.200)
what is required to kind of really do that stuff. So there's some variables you can control for,
Zach Bitter (37:07.280)
you know, I try to control for as many as I can. The big one that kind of stands out that you can't
Zach Bitter (37:11.360)
necessarily control for is it's pretty rare where you get an event where they're just doing a hundred
Zach Bitter (37:15.920)
miles on a track. It's usually like a, like an event of like a series of different events where
Zach Bitter (37:21.440)
they might be like some people out there doing 50 K, some people out there doing 24 or something
Zach Bitter (37:26.080)
like the event I did at, there was six day folks out there. They're trying to see how far they
Zach Bitter (37:28.800)
could get in six days. So you have like this much wider range of pacing just due to like the
Zach Bitter (37:34.320)
distance. So, you know, track protocol is always like you pass on the outside. So if you're running
Zach Bitter (37:41.760)
one of the faster paces of the day, which when you go on up to six days, you're going to, and you're
Zach Bitter (37:47.520)
doing a hundred miles, you're probably going to be running faster than most people out there.
Zach Bitter (37:50.480)
Then, you know, you just end up running more because you end up running in lane two around
Zach Bitter (37:54.480)
the turns and then sometimes lane three around the turns. So it's down to those little details
Zach Bitter (37:57.840)
that have a big impact. Yep. So I had to build that into my pacing strategy. I also have to build
Zach Bitter (38:01.920)
into the pacing strategy, like relative nonmoving time. You know, I did a race just recently,
Zach Bitter (38:08.320)
it was the US track and field hundred mile road championships. And I did not stop once other than
Zach Bitter (38:13.120)
like, I guess I technically stopped like in the aid station for like a few seconds to like grab
Zach Bitter (38:17.680)
bottles and get myself wet. Cause it was like 94 degrees that day, but I didn't like stop at all
Zach Bitter (38:23.200)
during that race from like what I would say is like a long period of time where we're getting
Zach Bitter (38:28.640)
up to like a minute, but that's pretty rare. Even on the track, like when I ran 11 hours and 19
Zach Bitter (38:33.680)
minutes, I think I stopped three times for maybe a total of like, I believe I have to look back for
Zach Bitter (38:38.880)
sure, but I think it was like three to four minutes or something like that. So you got to,
Zach Bitter (38:41.600)
you got to figure that into your pacing strategy, especially if you're chasing a specific time.
Zach Bitter (38:46.480)
Cause you know, if I'm pacing for, you know, at the time the world record was 1128. So if I'm
Zach Bitter (38:51.760)
pacing for say 1127, 30 or something like that, and I don't account for that three minutes of
Zach Bitter (38:58.320)
stoppage, then I might run the exact pace I had planned on, but then I'm a minute off of the world
Zach Bitter (39:02.320)
record. So 1128, we're talking about 11 hours, we're talking about a hundred miles. Can you
Zach Bitter (39:07.840)
mention what the world record was? What kind of world record you set? Can you tell your own story
Zach Bitter (39:14.000)
here of what you were able to accomplish that world record that I broke actually just recently
Zach Bitter (39:18.800)
got rebroke by a guy over in Lithuania, Alex Sorkin, phenomenal race. I mean, he's won the 24
Zach Bitter (39:28.080)
hour world championships. He's won the Spartathlon, which is another big historic ultra marathon
Zach Bitter (39:32.480)
rates, 153 miles. So it's getting a little more lengthy than some of the stuff that I've
Zach Bitter (39:35.760)
traditionally done. He ran 1114, I believe it was 56 or 57. So his pace was 645 per mile. Mine was
Zach Bitter (39:44.080)
647 and a half in terms of just like the pacing strategy. I mean, it's, it's just really cool
Zach Bitter (39:49.680)
because for me, the motivation with chasing the world record was, it was multifaceted. I think
Zach Bitter (39:58.320)
there was, as I kind of moved through, cause I mean, it took me almost six years from the day
Zach Bitter (3:00:01.280)
yeah so that could lend you in eating a meat based diet running across the country
Zach Bitter (3:00:05.600)
uh like the the incredible madman that you are zack i'm a huge fan as i told you many times you're
Zach Bitter (3:00:10.960)
an inspiration to many i'll be there checking in every day if you somehow make it out the starting
Zach Bitter (3:00:16.320)
line on september 1st i know i know joe rogan and millions of others will be as well so i'm excited
Zach Bitter (3:00:22.080)
to see all the suffering that you're going to go through i wish you the best of luck and
Zach Bitter (3:00:25.840)
thank you so much for talking today i really really appreciate it well thanks a bunch of
Zach Bitter (3:00:29.200)
likes it's been a an honor to come on your podcast i've been a fan of it for uh 10 years
Zach Bitter (3:00:34.160)
i've been a fan of it for uh for quite some time and um i thought about wearing a white suit but
Zach Bitter (3:00:40.240)
michael malice already took care of that one so it was well and uh i think it'll be really good
Zach Bitter (3:00:46.000)
for the ratings of this conversation if you end up dying during that run so i'll do my best so
Zach Bitter (3:00:51.360)
the everything that could happen will be positive for for the world you're saying i should try to
Zach Bitter (3:00:56.480)
average 100 miles a day 100 miles well i think you're going to push yourself to again it's not
Zach Bitter (3:01:02.080)
a priority but it's trying to beat that record that's probably going to take everything you have
Lex Fridman (3:01:07.600)
and that that that's truly inspiring i wish you the best of luck man thanks a bunch thanks for
Zach Bitter (3:01:13.840)
listening to this conversation with zac bitter and thank you to ladder belcampo noom and better help
Zach Bitter (3:01:21.040)
check them out in the description to support this podcast and now let me leave you with some words
Zach Bitter (3:01:26.560)
steve prefontaine i'm going to work so that's a pure guts race at the end and if it is i'm the
Lex Fridman (3:01:33.280)
only one who can win it thank you for listening and hope to see you next time
Zach Bitter (40:02.480)
I decided I wanted to chase that time to the day I actually did it. And through that five to six
Zach Bitter (40:09.760)
years, I think I merged from just like my number one goal was to try to break the world record to
Zach Bitter (40:16.080)
my number one goal is how fast can I run this thing? And then ultimately what needs to be done
Zach Bitter (40:22.160)
for a human to break 11 hours in a hundred miles. Cause I think that's going to be, I think that's
Lex Fridman (40:25.760)
going to happen soon. I think it's going to happen in the next few years. What pace would that be?
Zach Bitter (40:31.360)
Sub 11 would be, I think like, I think it's like 635 right about per mile. You're moving quick,
Lex Fridman (40:37.280)
but not so quick that like you're, you're, you know, void of being able to think about everything
Zach Bitter (40:43.120)
as it's happening. So what's the pace in terms of, if you look for each of the one mile segments for
Zach Bitter (40:50.320)
the hundred miles, is it pretty steady six, like in order to break 11 hours, would it be pretty
Lex Fridman (40:57.040)
steady 635? Does it go up and down? Do you speed up at the very end? Like what's, what's the pacing?
Lex Fridman (41:03.920)
If you were to maybe how much variability is there in the pacing for an optimal performance here?
Zach Bitter (41:09.200)
Yeah. So if you're talking about someone, let's say that there was someone, well,
Zach Bitter (41:12.240)
let's just take me for example, let's say that we could just like, we had this infinite knowledge
Lex Fridman (41:16.720)
and we knew for a fact, a perfect performance for me would produce a 10 59, but I'm not going
Zach Bitter (41:21.920)
a second faster and I need to do everything right in order to run a 10 59. Uh, I would definitely
Zach Bitter (41:29.280)
want to either have a slight negative or slight positive split. So when, um, and I think there's,
Zach Bitter (41:36.400)
I think there's a, there's a range in there where like being a little bit faster the first half
Lex Fridman (41:41.680)
and the second half isn't going to necessarily change your outcome or being a little bit slower
Zach Bitter (41:47.280)
the first half and a little bit faster. The second half isn't going to drastically change your outcome.
Lex Fridman (41:52.560)
So that's what you're referring to. The split is you're looking at the first 50 miles and
Zach Bitter (41:55.920)
the second 50 miles. And you can break it down as tiny as you want. Like I think, uh,
Zach Bitter (42:00.160)
when you take out the outlier laps where I stopped to use the bathroom, which would have been that
Zach Bitter (42:03.680)
like three to four minute nonmoving time that I talked about before, my splits were really tight.
Zach Bitter (42:08.720)
Um, I had a couple that were, um, it was weird cause that, that track that I did that on was
Zach Bitter (42:13.840)
actually like 400 and some weird number, like 400 and like 38 meters or something like that. So I
Zach Bitter (42:19.920)
actually like ran like my numbers based on that. So they're there normally I'm dealing with 400
Zach Bitter (42:24.720)
meters and then it's a little more like clean as to like what my lap splits are going to range from
Zach Bitter (42:29.120)
one event to the next. So we're talking about running a hundred miles on a track. Yeah.
Lex Fridman (42:32.880)
And so that you can be really scientific about getting the, the, this, the, um, the pacing,
Zach Bitter (42:40.160)
right. And, uh, you're, you're running on the inside lane or is there some kind of tricks to
Zach Bitter (42:45.280)
this? Like, are you alternating directions? Yeah. They'll switch directions at most events every
Zach Bitter (42:51.920)
four hours. So you'll do four hours one way and then they usually put a cone out. And once it hits
Zach Bitter (42:57.920)
like, like, let's say it hits four hours, you finish the lap you're on and then you do a loop
Zach Bitter (43:02.880)
around and then you start the next, your next lap. Would you say you take the exact same number of
Zach Bitter (43:06.960)
steps? Like when you're really in the groove, when you take in the pacing, are we talking about that
Zach Bitter (43:12.880)
level of precision or is it a little bit more feel? You mean like foot strike frequency? Yeah.
Zach Bitter (43:18.080)
Like frequency then over the distance to the lap. Would you say it's so precise that you're like,
Zach Bitter (43:23.920)
you get in this groove where it's like, gosh, you're making me wish I would have strapped more
Zach Bitter (43:28.480)
like a foot pod to my head. But like, yeah, so I think like my guess is it's pretty precise.
Zach Bitter (43:34.160)
Like is there a video of this? Sorry. I keep interrupting. Is there a video of this? Cause
Zach Bitter (43:37.760)
I, I've actually, this is now three years ago, build a computer vision algorithm that counts
Zach Bitter (43:44.400)
foot strikes. Oh, really? Yeah. For fun. Yeah. I was trying to understand, uh, we'll talk about
Zach Bitter (43:50.720)
this later. We have the same definition of fun when I got my, find myself on a track for all day
Lex Fridman (43:55.760)
and you find yourself counting foot strikes. I was trying to understand if, if there's how much
Zach Bitter (44:00.800)
variability there's in a extreme, like elite performers within a particular race, but also
Zach Bitter (44:08.160)
across races. It was just interesting to me from a robotics perspective, if like how much variability
Zach Bitter (44:14.960)
there is in the human body and in the way they use legs to move quickly. I think my guess would be
Zach Bitter (44:21.120)
that at the individual level, it's going to be pretty precise, assuming the pacing
Zach Bitter (44:25.760)
is consistent. So you get, so my pacing on that day, I ran two minutes faster the second 50 miles
Zach Bitter (44:32.560)
than I did the first 50 miles. So my splits were very even most of the day. I actually ran some of
Zach Bitter (44:36.640)
my fastest miles at the end. Uh, so there's going to be probably a slight variance from my fastest
Zach Bitter (44:42.320)
miles to my slowest mile in like your cadence or your foot strike. Uh, but probably not by a huge
Zach Bitter (44:47.760)
margin, but you might have a pretty big variance from one person to the next. So you get someone
Zach Bitter (44:52.560)
whose gate is just a little bit different. So like for me, I supinate, which means I kind of come down
Zach Bitter (44:57.920)
on the outside of my foot and I'm kind of more of a mid forefoot striker. So that's going to kind of
Zach Bitter (45:02.560)
impact my cadence to a degree. Whereas you might have someone who is kind of more mid to rear their
Zach Bitter (45:09.280)
foot or heel striker and they might pronate where their foot kind of rolls in. Uh, so that person
Zach Bitter (45:13.840)
may have a little bit of a different cadence as well. So you get someone, and I think you see this
Zach Bitter (45:18.400)
in elite marathoning too, which is going to probably just be a much larger data pool, uh,
Zach Bitter (45:23.280)
much, much more probably precise from just like a number of opportunities to study this.
Lex Fridman (45:29.200)
And I think even their ranges from one person to the next can be, I wouldn't say drastic, but,
Zach Bitter (45:34.080)
you know, to the degree of like 10 to maybe even 20 steps per minute or something like that from
Zach Bitter (45:38.960)
one person to the next. But most people, the faster they go, the higher their cadence is
Zach Bitter (45:43.280)
going to be. The slower they go, the lower their cadence is going to be, but there's going to be
Zach Bitter (45:46.320)
probably a range of optimal lowness and I don't know, probably optimal highness too than that.
Zach Bitter (45:54.000)
If you can just linger on the 11 hours, the person, first of all, would you like to be the
Zach Bitter (45:59.440)
person that breaks 11 hours? And second of all, the person that does break 11 hours, like what would,
Lex Fridman (46:05.440)
what would it take? And third question is, is it even possible in your intuition?
Zach Bitter (46:10.800)
Yeah. I mean, I would def I would be lying to you if I said I didn't want to be the first person
Zach Bitter (46:15.120)
to break 11 hours and a hundred miles. I think that'll be, um, would be a cool like barrier to
Zach Bitter (46:20.720)
be the one to usher that in. But with that said, I think I'm much more motivated in seeing it done
Zach Bitter (46:27.280)
from the sense that like, I think when we're talking about records, it's something that
Zach Bitter (46:33.680)
is inevitable that it's going to get broken. So, I mean, we were talking about happiness before
Zach Bitter (46:37.600)
this, right? So I've contemplated this in the past, um, where I was thinking to myself, like,
Zach Bitter (46:44.080)
uh, if my motivation is to break a world record or any record for that matter, course record
Lex Fridman (46:49.600)
and have that be my defining reason or my defining motivator, I probably need to do
Zach Bitter (46:56.640)
an assessment of what I'm kind of where my mind is at and where my focus is at.
Zach Bitter (47:01.760)
Uh, and just reflect on how I'm behaving in life because it's going to get broken, right? I mean,
Zach Bitter (47:09.120)
I could run 10 50 tomorrow and in 10 years, chances are that's no longer going to be my
Zach Bitter (47:16.800)
world record anymore. Someone's going to run faster than that. So if you're living to hold
Zach Bitter (47:22.400)
on to a record versus living to try to move the sport forward, which anytime you break a world
Zach Bitter (47:28.080)
record, you're moving the sport forward, then, then you have to look at that as like, that was
Zach Bitter (47:32.800)
my contribution. And whether I contribute again or not is kind of besides the point. What you want
Zach Bitter (47:39.440)
is that your performance, your contribution brings new people into the sport who are excited,
Zach Bitter (47:44.400)
motivated, and they can make their contribution. And then we can ultimately see, well, how fast
Zach Bitter (47:49.280)
can someone run a controlled environment, a hundred miler. And that's what I really want to
Zach Bitter (47:53.520)
see. Uh, cause I think I've gotten so much enjoyment from the sport. I mean, I've gotten so much
Zach Bitter (47:57.920)
enjoyment from the sport. I've been able to turn it into a career. And I think there's, there's
Zach Bitter (48:02.400)
other people who can do the same thing and it's not necessarily going to come at the expense of
Zach Bitter (48:06.320)
my career. Uh, but it's going to bring more attention to the sport. It's going to bring more
Zach Bitter (48:10.640)
interest in the sport. It's going to open the sport up to people who maybe otherwise would have
Zach Bitter (48:13.360)
never thought about it, seen it, considered it. And to me, I think that's like a much more rewarding
Zach Bitter (48:19.840)
goal than saying I want to break this record and I want to hold it for decades or I want to die
Zach Bitter (48:25.680)
with this record. So I never have to see someone go faster than me. Well, that's the progress of
Zach Bitter (48:29.760)
human civilization was down on the shoulders of giants and we keep creating cool stuff. Well,
Lex Fridman (48:34.080)
and it's, it's the other thing is just like, if you're honest with yourself too, it's, uh, I mean,
Zach Bitter (48:38.400)
we're seeing this right now in the running world where, you know, new innovations come in, new
Zach Bitter (48:42.080)
technologies come in, new nutritional approaches come in. And then we see like the new crop of
Zach Bitter (48:47.360)
folks have advantages that the old crop didn't have. And it can be easy to look back on that and
Zach Bitter (48:51.680)
say like, Hey, well, um, you know, if I would have had that product or if I would have done that,
Zach Bitter (48:56.560)
I would have run this. But then you're getting into that negative, you know, thought process again,
Zach Bitter (49:00.560)
which I generally try to stay off of. It's like the caveman. If I had fire, I would have done
Zach Bitter (49:05.920)
right. But with this, look at these idiots up there with their cars. If I would have had a car
Zach Bitter (49:10.000)
back then, I would have been ruled the world. Um, let me just zoom up briefly and ask you about
Lex Fridman (49:18.240)
kind of beauty and love. What's the most beautiful thing about running to you? Why do you love it?
Zach Bitter (49:24.960)
I think, uh, there's kind of a couple of directions to look at it through our lenses,
Zach Bitter (49:29.680)
look at it through. There's like the, in the moment, right? There's always going to be that
Zach Bitter (49:32.800)
run where, uh, you're clicking along and things just feel great. You get some endorphins and you
Zach Bitter (49:38.480)
get the, the, you know, the, the quote unquote runner's high and that sort of stuff. And that's
Zach Bitter (49:42.640)
like just like this great feeling that you can kind of tap into on the like the real, like,
Zach Bitter (49:47.920)
like in the moment type of level. Uh, you know, you've, my wife and I talk about this because
Zach Bitter (49:53.040)
she's a competitive ultra runner as well. And, um, you will, you'll, we'll have a day where,
Zach Bitter (49:58.560)
you know, we'll take a forced day off or something like that. And it's necessary, right? It's going to
Zach Bitter (50:02.880)
allow the enjoyment to continue. But you get into this like routine of, I wake up in the morning,
Zach Bitter (50:08.480)
I do this run and that kind of gets my day started. That gets my energies up. I get that
Zach Bitter (50:12.880)
runner's high afterwards. You remove that from the equation for a rest day. And you just start
Zach Bitter (50:17.360)
like, oh man, I don't feel like I never got started today. Like, you know, it's just this
Zach Bitter (50:21.440)
weird thing. It's almost, I think it's, it's funny because non runners don't always like
Zach Bitter (50:26.480)
necessarily recognize it because for them it's the complete opposite. They're like,
Zach Bitter (50:29.280)
if I can get away from not having to run today, that's going to be a good day versus. But it's
Zach Bitter (50:35.040)
one of those things that I think gets more addictive the more you do it. So, uh, so that's
Zach Bitter (50:38.880)
purely from the running perspective. There's this joy of, uh, of the runner's high of the post after
Zach Bitter (50:44.160)
the run. You feel like you can take on the world, that kind of thing. Yes. And I think that's one
Zach Bitter (50:48.240)
of the drivers from just the quality of life standpoint. Uh, just, uh, you know, and in the
Zach Bitter (50:53.600)
moment, immediate gratification, uh, standpoint. But then there's like, I think the bigger picture
Zach Bitter (50:57.760)
stuff or the longer term stuff. And for me, that enjoyment is like just the process like of, uh,
Zach Bitter (51:05.600)
okay, I'm starting at this fitness level and I'm going to do these workouts and by doing these
Zach Bitter (51:11.600)
workouts, I'm going to see incremental progress from them. And then that's another kind of like,
Zach Bitter (51:15.600)
kind of short term gratification. That's maybe a little longer than the day to day, but,
Zach Bitter (51:19.440)
um, still like shorter than like a career or a, or a buildup for a particular race
Zach Bitter (51:24.880)
where you're saying you're seeing yourself like, okay, maybe I'm focusing on short intervals right
Zach Bitter (51:28.480)
now. And on week one, I covered this much distance in three minutes, but by week four, I'm covering
Zach Bitter (51:34.400)
this much distance and you can just see that progress is almost like, uh, in elementary
Zach Bitter (51:39.440)
school when you get the gold star for reading a book, it's like, did that gold star really mean
Zach Bitter (51:42.880)
anything? I don't know, but I felt great when they gave it to me. There's something about just
Zach Bitter (51:48.160)
finding improvement and people love to see improvement, I think. So that's where, uh,
Zach Bitter (51:53.360)
I think you can also get some value in it saying like I started here and I got there.
Zach Bitter (51:57.440)
Um, and then I think there's also just like, uh, I would call this maybe more the cherry on top,
Zach Bitter (52:02.960)
which is like where you express your work, which is the race itself, where that's going to be kind
Zach Bitter (52:07.440)
of the thing that kind of like, uh, shows up on the end result and where it kind of identifies
Zach Bitter (52:13.440)
whether you did things right or wrong. Yeah. So there's a sense which, in which training is a kind
Zach Bitter (52:18.080)
of, uh, preparation towards race day and race day being the thing where you get to be the artist.
Zach Bitter (52:25.840)
You get to create this, this piece of art and they might suck, it might be beautiful. Uh, I mean,
Zach Bitter (52:31.440)
I, I, I see in the grappling world, I see competition in that same way when I feel the best
Zach Bitter (52:36.400)
about it, which is like, sounds pretentious to say, but like, I'm trying to be the best version of
Zach Bitter (52:43.040)
myself in this particular day of competition and to do something that I'll be proud of in, in, uh,
Zach Bitter (52:51.280)
in an artist way, not in a kind of some kind of numerical way, but like as a holistic sense, like
Zach Bitter (52:59.120)
do something cool. Like in grappling, that means for me, that means like not stalling,
Zach Bitter (53:04.720)
like taking big risks and trying to dominate another person in the, in the context of grappling
Zach Bitter (53:10.880)
and, and do it, like push myself to the limit, both cardio wise and technique wise, and just play,
Zach Bitter (53:18.320)
play beautifully. I mean, you see this in kind of chess, there's systematic chess players and
Zach Bitter (53:22.480)
there's people that allow themselves to have those moments of genius where they take the big risk
Zach Bitter (53:28.000)
that eventually pays off or doesn't. And that to me is art that, I mean, there's art within running,
Zach Bitter (53:34.000)
there's art within chess, there's art within grappling. And you got a chance, like all the
Zach Bitter (53:38.400)
training is more like science. And then it feels like the competition days art. Yeah. I think that
Zach Bitter (53:44.640)
that that's a really cool, cool way to look at. And I think it's when you really open up the
Zach Bitter (53:49.280)
perspective of that too, it's like even, uh, obviously, you know, having a great day,
Zach Bitter (53:53.840)
like winning the tournament or, you know, getting further than you were expected to,
Zach Bitter (53:57.120)
or beating someone who you've never beaten before or something like that. Uh, or in the running
Zach Bitter (54:00.960)
perspective, like achieving that goal time, uh, that sort of stuff. Obviously those are kind of
Zach Bitter (54:05.680)
like the ones you, if, when you're honest with yourself, you really want, and you're going to
Zach Bitter (54:09.520)
probably get the most satisfaction out of, but even when they don't go wrong, like maybe like
Zach Bitter (54:13.840)
with your grappling tournament, uh, analogy, the, you know, maybe the guy you're grappling against
Zach Bitter (54:19.200)
does a move on you and you're like, I was not prepared for that move. So now the enjoyment
Zach Bitter (54:23.360)
becomes, okay, back to the drawing board. Now I need to find out what do I do when that happens
Zach Bitter (54:28.720)
to me next time. And that's where the, I think the why comes in again, same thing with running.
Zach Bitter (54:33.280)
Like maybe I make a mistake and, you know, like eat something I didn't really want to eat or,
Zach Bitter (54:39.200)
or thought was going to work, but didn't work. And it costs me more time than I gained by having it
Zach Bitter (54:43.280)
or something like that. And then I go back to the drawing board and say, okay, well,
Zach Bitter (54:46.640)
I can't do that. That didn't work. Or if I'm going to do that, I need to be more prepared to
Zach Bitter (54:50.480)
be able to do it. And I love that part of the sport. Um, just the rearranging of things and
Zach Bitter (54:56.800)
adjusting and tinkering. There's some sense in which the mistakes and like the flaws give us
Zach Bitter (55:01.280)
meaning. Cause like if, if everything, um, if you weren't able to find mistakes and something you've
Zach Bitter (55:07.920)
done, it feels like the life would be void of meaning. It's a lost opportunity too. Like if,
Zach Bitter (55:15.920)
I mean, like when I look at even my a hundred mile race of 11, 19, I can find spots in there
Zach Bitter (55:24.240)
where I was like, Oh, you know what? I could clean that up a little bit. Maybe if I do this
Zach Bitter (55:27.680)
differently. And I mean, that's going to get me, you know, a little bit faster. If I sat back and
Zach Bitter (55:33.840)
said, Hey, well things went great that day. Cool. Let's see if we can replicate it. Then, you know,
Zach Bitter (55:37.920)
I probably run 11, 19 again. So can we talk about training a little bit? What does your training
Zach Bitter (55:45.280)
look like year round day to day, hour to hour, like optimal? Maybe, uh, maybe you want to pick a
Zach Bitter (55:53.520)
race in the context of what you want to discuss that, but, and also people should follow you on
Zach Bitter (55:58.080)
Instagram. You have a lot of kind of interesting, um, like little glances into your training process
Lex Fridman (56:05.760)
and into your training thinking, which is quite fascinating. But if you look at an optimal training
Zach Bitter (56:10.560)
process, what does that look like? Yeah. So I think, uh, the, if we were looking at it from
Zach Bitter (56:15.840)
like a philosophical level or like an approach level, I think there's some things that carry over
Zach Bitter (56:20.240)
from regardless of the distance. So I think working on your weaknesses and things that are least
Zach Bitter (56:27.760)
specific to what you're going to do on race day, but are still going to be important things in
Zach Bitter (56:32.960)
terms of improving your ability to perform on race day or maximizing your potential, uh,
Zach Bitter (56:39.440)
with the things that are specific you do first. I say that, but there's a caveat with endurance
Zach Bitter (56:46.240)
sport. I think maybe even more specifically with things like our ultra marathons or a hundred
Zach Bitter (56:49.600)
miles where you want a really strong aerobic foundation or like a base before you really start,
Zach Bitter (56:56.720)
I think, structuring things towards a specific one. So for me, I think like a target for me is
Zach Bitter (57:03.200)
oftentimes like, uh, you know, getting really fit at like what my pace would be at like my aerobic
Zach Bitter (57:10.480)
threshold or what a lot of people may be called like a maximum aerobic function. Um, I mean,
Zach Bitter (57:14.720)
the running world is kind of weird where we have like these terminologies where there's
Zach Bitter (57:17.440)
sometimes multiple words that essentially mean the same thing, but one is from like, uh,
Zach Bitter (57:21.360)
just an actual physiological reaction and one is just like a feeling and stuff like that. So
Zach Bitter (57:25.840)
you mentioned time on feet versus time in optimal physiological state. Like how important is it just
Zach Bitter (57:33.120)
to get like running done versus like running in a particular pace that would depend on the event.
Zach Bitter (57:40.160)
I would say to a degree and there's contradicting ideas about like kind of how to structure it. I
Zach Bitter (57:46.320)
think a lot of times like, uh, you do want to like time on feet in most cases is just going to be
Zach Bitter (57:52.160)
like I'm running easy, whatever feels easy that day. And that can be different from one day to
Zach Bitter (57:56.320)
the next. Like I might feel great and you know, that produces a much faster pace than if I feel
Zach Bitter (58:01.440)
really miserable or something like that. Um, so that's why I think a lot of times running,
Zach Bitter (58:06.480)
well they'll, they'll do the whole perceived, perceived effort or perceived exertion.
Lex Fridman (58:10.560)
And there you're looking at kind of understanding the response your body has to a certain effort
Zach Bitter (58:18.480)
level and you're supposed to target a certain effort level in order to like get a certain
Zach Bitter (58:22.080)
response. So to maybe simplify that a little bit or make it a little clearer, like I think I focus
Zach Bitter (58:27.920)
on essentially like short intervals. I focus on longer intervals or tempo runs. Uh, I focus on,
Zach Bitter (58:35.840)
um, like race pace intensity, which is a lot of times what I'll build my long run around. Um,
Lex Fridman (58:42.240)
but I'll also like, those are kind of like the small pieces to the puzzle. Those are the options
Zach Bitter (58:46.640)
you're working with. Yeah, but I'm going to always try to work with those options on top of a massive
Zach Bitter (58:51.520)
aerobic base, which is going to probably be like 80% of the work. So how do you build that massive
Zach Bitter (58:55.440)
aerobic base? What are we talking about? Just distance? Distance and essentially, so I like
Zach Bitter (59:00.560)
to call it microstressing because you're going to always start at a different spot depending
Zach Bitter (59:03.440)
on where your fitness level is at and depending on where you're at as an individual. I'm going
Zach Bitter (59:07.200)
to be targeting my aerobic threshold. I'm going to get right up to it, but not necessarily cross
Zach Bitter (59:11.600)
over it. Um, it's, it, you know, it's, it's been popularized as maximum aerobic function as kind
Zach Bitter (59:16.560)
of a training philosophy. That philosophy in itself, I think maybe is a little more like
Zach Bitter (59:22.400)
holistic where they're saying, do this basically all the time. And by doing so, you're going to,
Zach Bitter (59:28.240)
like, you're going to raise your aerobic potential by so much that, you know, you can kind of like
Zach Bitter (59:34.000)
race yourself into shape at that point. And this would be maybe more specific for like shorter
Zach Bitter (59:37.840)
distance or endurance runs where you're not going to really race yourself in the shape of a hundred
Zach Bitter (59:41.360)
milers. But for five Ks, you might, you might do like a huge base building phase where you're going
Zach Bitter (59:46.560)
up to that maximum aerobic function or that aerobic threshold and you're watching your pace come down
Zach Bitter (59:53.760)
at that. So the rule there is basically like if you're seeing improvement, that's the sign
Zach Bitter (59:58.800)
you're looking for, or which would just be your pace dropping at that heart rate or at that
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