Yeonmi Park: North Korea
政治与社会心理与人性生物与进化音乐与艺术历史与文明
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northkoreadongoingsufferingkimhumanchinagotjongcountryfreedomcannotbookdidntalkcamekoreanevilhope
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"million people suffering starvation for months and years, always on the brink of death. We don't know"
— Yeonmi Park （01:04.880）
🎙️ 完整对话（1221 条）
Lex Fridman (00:00.000)
The following is a conversation with Yeonmi Park, a North Korean defector, human rights activist,
Lex Fridman (00:06.160)
and author of the book, In Order to Live. Quick mention of our sponsors, Belcampo, Gala Games,
Lex Fridman (00:14.240)
Batter Help, and Aid Sleep. Check them out in the description to support this podcast.
Lex Fridman (00:19.840)
Let me say a few words about North Korea. From 1994 to 1998, North Korea went through a famine.
Lex Fridman (00:27.440)
Mass starvation, caused primarily by King Jong Il, who at the time was the new leader of North
Yeonmi Park (00:34.080)
Korea after his father's death in 1994. Somewhere between 600,000 and 3 million people died due to
Yeonmi Park (00:43.760)
starvation. From all the stories of famine in history, including my own family history, I've
Yeonmi Park (00:50.160)
come to understand that hunger tortures the human mind in a way that can break everything we stand
Yeonmi Park (00:56.800)
for. In North Korea, during the 90s famine, many were driven to cannibalism. Imagine more than 10
Yeonmi Park (01:04.880)
million people suffering starvation for months and years, always on the brink of death. We don't know
Yeonmi Park (01:12.160)
the exact numbers of people who died because the suffering was done in silence, in darkness. Very
Yeonmi Park (01:18.640)
little information in or out. Most people had to survive without electricity, without clean water,
Yeonmi Park (01:25.760)
medical supplies, sanitation, and food. The North Korean propaganda machine called this
Yeonmi Park (01:31.760)
the Arduous March, or the March of Suffering, and words such as famine and hunger were banned
Yeonmi Park (01:37.760)
because they implied government failure. And once again, now, in 2021, King Jong Un,
Yeonmi Park (01:44.800)
the current leader of North Korea, is calling for his country to prepare for another Arduous March,
Yeonmi Park (01:50.160)
or March of Suffering. Another period of mass starvation as the country closes its borders.
Yeonmi Park (01:57.360)
Looking at atrocities of the past decades and the encroaching atrocity there now, I think about the
Yeonmi Park (02:03.040)
quiet suffering of millions of North Koreans. I think about the torture of the human spirit.
Yeonmi Park (02:08.880)
I think about a North Korean child who could be a scientist, an artist, a writer, but who instead
Yeonmi Park (02:15.360)
grows impossibly thin without food, their bodies slowly rotting away as their parents watch
Yeonmi Park (02:21.120)
helplessly. I got emotional in this conversation with you and me, in part because I remembered my
Yeonmi Park (02:28.640)
grandmother, who survived Khaldamur, the famine in Ukraine, intentionally created by Stalin,
Yeonmi Park (02:35.520)
where 4 to 10 million people died and many, many more suffered. Imagine knowing that if you don't
Yeonmi Park (02:42.160)
engage in cannibalism, you will die before your children did, and then they will be eaten.
Yeonmi Park (02:48.320)
Imagine, because of this, deciding to murder and eat your own children,
Yeonmi Park (02:52.880)
as many people did. Imagine the kind of desperation, torture, that leads up to a decision
Yeonmi Park (02:59.920)
like that. I'm not smart enough to know what evil is, nor where to draw the line between good and
Yeonmi Park (03:05.920)
evil. But Stalin, Kim Jong Il, Kim Jong Un, are men who in the name of power are willing to make
Yeonmi Park (03:14.560)
millions of people, of children, suffer and die from starvation. I rarely have hate in my heart,
Lex Fridman (03:22.160)
but I hate these men. I hate that such men exist in this world. I hate that the beauty I love about
Yeonmi Park (03:28.800)
this life exists amidst such unimaginable cruelty. I have been haunted by this conversation,
Yeonmi Park (03:36.480)
by memories of my grandmother's pain. But I've also been warmed by memories of her love.
Yeonmi Park (03:43.360)
Love gives me hope. Hope for the perseverance of the human spirit, even in the face of evil.
Yeonmi Park (03:51.920)
This is the Lex Friedman Podcast, and here is my conversation with you and me, Park.
Yeonmi Park (03:57.040)
Park. Can you tell your story from North Korea to today as you describe in your 2015 book,
Lex Fridman (04:03.760)
and with the extra perspective on life, love and freedom you've gained since then?
Yeonmi Park (04:08.560)
Wow, that's a long story. So I was born in the northern part of North Korea initially.
Lex Fridman (04:14.720)
And my father was a party member. And my mom was housewife. I had one older sister.
Lex Fridman (04:22.000)
And I remember born in that country. I never thought I was in an unusual country. Now I'm
Yeonmi Park (04:28.320)
thinking of what is literally called the Hermit Kingdom. But I thought I believed that I was
Yeonmi Park (04:34.800)
living in the best country on earth. It was a socialist paradise. And everybody in the rest
Yeonmi Park (04:41.360)
of the world worshiped my ideal leader. And there was nothing to envy for me. So I had this
Yeonmi Park (04:48.880)
enormous pride in my heart. And grateful to be in that country.
Lex Fridman (04:54.480)
So it was love for the leader, not fear?
Yeonmi Park (04:57.280)
For me at least, it was love. Yeah, it was all the moderation and gratitude.
Lex Fridman (05:03.840)
It changed lately, but for me was pure, pure like love.
Yeonmi Park (05:08.800)
Was there any, like looking back with the perspective you have now,
Yeonmi Park (05:12.800)
would you describe some of those moments growing up as full of happiness? Or was that
Lex Fridman (05:20.480)
delusion at the time? So not knowing the alternative, will you still be able to be happy?
Yeonmi Park (05:26.960)
The fact that I did not know, like in North Korea, this is the only country in this 21st century
Yeonmi Park (05:32.960)
has no internet. And they don't even know the existence of internet. Not only that,
Yeonmi Park (05:39.440)
we don't even have this 24 hour electricity. So not knowing definitely helped, I think,
Lex Fridman (05:47.840)
to be sane. So as a human being, you're still able to find moments of happiness?
Yeonmi Park (05:53.840)
I think my happiness was from family, nothing else. Even though those days keep telling me
Yeonmi Park (05:59.760)
that they were our source of meaning and happiness, I don't think I ever got happy by that.
Yeonmi Park (06:06.000)
Maybe they're here and they're in schools. And like when I was learning propaganda,
Yeonmi Park (06:10.560)
like, you know, the proud feeling, right? I mean, the greatest nation here and there,
Lex Fridman (06:15.040)
but like actually true happiness came from laughing with my family, my friends.
Lex Fridman (06:20.560)
Are there any childhood memories, pleasant or painful ones that stand out to you now?
Yeonmi Park (06:28.800)
I mean, like, you know, whenever I think about my North Korea, the interesting is
Yeonmi Park (06:34.640)
there's no color. I mean, one is because North Korean country has no color, right? Most of
Yeonmi Park (06:40.400)
things are unpaved and trees all cut down. We have no fear. So people cut down trees to
Yeonmi Park (06:46.880)
make food. So but only that, like, even what we are wearing was like no color. So it's an
Lex Fridman (06:55.360)
interesting memory to look back.
Lex Fridman (06:57.440)
What about fashion? I've noticed from sort of you now, you have quite an incredible sense of
Yeonmi Park (07:04.720)
fashion. So contrast that with your time in North Korea. How do you remember fashion? Just
Lex Fridman (07:10.880)
ways that people could express themselves visually. Was it all bland?
Yeonmi Park (07:15.600)
There was no word for fashion in North Korea. We didn't even know. It was not even in our
Yeonmi Park (07:20.960)
dictionary. So of course, I did not know what Victoria's Secret models were. I didn't even
Yeonmi Park (07:25.920)
know what models were. So when I came out, I learned the model was a job. And like, what
Yeonmi Park (07:32.080)
is that? And I'm still confused. So there's so many jobs that we have here doesn't exist
Lex Fridman (07:38.000)
in North Korea.
Lex Fridman (07:39.840)
What was life like in North Korea as compared to the rest of the world? So maybe you said
Lex Fridman (07:44.480)
there's no internet. 24 hour electricity is a luxury you do not have. What about food?
Lex Fridman (07:52.720)
What about water? What about basic human rights?
Yeonmi Park (07:56.000)
I think that's a thing like when people were asking me, can you tell me about like life
Yeonmi Park (08:01.040)
in North Korea? And in the past, I was like, I cannot describe it to you. And initially
Yeonmi Park (08:06.480)
I thought, oh, because of my English that I cannot find the words. It's not that it's
Yeonmi Park (08:10.480)
a different planet. The common sense that we have doesn't exist there. Like people literally
Yeonmi Park (08:16.640)
do not know the concept of romantic love, or human rights or liberty. So when I'm thinking
Yeonmi Park (08:24.640)
back to my country, it's, you know, like, as you cannot imagine your life on Mars right
Yeonmi Park (08:31.280)
now. It's like that kind of difference. I grew up never seen the map of the world. I
Yeonmi Park (08:37.440)
never knew that I was Asian. Like the regime told me that I was Kim Il Sung, the first
Yeonmi Park (08:42.720)
Kim race. And then our calendar doesn't begin when Jesus Christ was born. Our calendar begins
Yeonmi Park (08:49.200)
where Kim was born. So we, and history was forgotten to us. They didn't teach us about
Yeonmi Park (08:55.840)
of course, Christianity or like the Big Bang. Like our history began when Kim was born.
Lex Fridman (09:02.720)
So everything was forgotten to us. And it was a different meaning. I mean, feeling of
Yeonmi Park (09:08.480)
existence, you know, it's not even like same life. I literally think that was almost like
Yeonmi Park (09:14.480)
my past life. And this is like a new life that I began.
Lex Fridman (09:18.480)
You're almost like a different human being now.
Yeonmi Park (09:20.480)
Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
Lex Fridman (09:22.480)
So you've, I have to say, I often say that my favorite book is Animal Farm by George
Yeonmi Park (09:30.480)
Orwell. I've read it, I don't know how many times. And so I was really happy to hear that
Yeonmi Park (09:36.480)
that was of the many books, excellent books that we'll hopefully talk about. You've mentioned
Yeonmi Park (09:42.480)
that Animal Farm had a big impact on you. It was the book that kind of led to a kind
Lex Fridman (09:50.480)
of awakening for you. Maybe can you describe what impact it had?
Lex Fridman (09:54.480)
So after going through what I went through, and I arrived in South Korea after many years
Yeonmi Park (09:59.480)
of journey, they were saying, so Kims were dictators, and South Korea is not colonized
Yeonmi Park (10:06.480)
by American bastards. And Americans, first of all, not bastards, they're good people.
Lex Fridman (10:11.480)
And then they say everything that you believe in North Korea was a lie. It was a propaganda.
Yeonmi Park (10:16.480)
Then at 15, I was thinking, so if everything that I believe was a lie, how do I know what
Yeonmi Park (10:22.480)
I believe is not a lie? That was so hard. How do I trust ever again? And I just, it
Yeonmi Park (10:29.480)
was chaos in belief. I did not know what was true anymore. And that's the moment, a few
Yeonmi Park (10:35.480)
years later, I read this book, like Animal Farm, just by mistake. It was a very short
Yeonmi Park (10:40.480)
book in the library. I was like, okay, I can finish that quickly. And when they're ending
Yeonmi Park (10:46.480)
that, like last chapter, they could not see between the pigs and humans anymore. That
Yeonmi Park (10:52.480)
sentence, I just understood everything that happened. It made every sense to me, what
Lex Fridman (10:59.480)
happened to me, my people, and to my country.
Yeonmi Park (11:03.480)
Yeah, there's so many things I could say about that book. Yeah, there's a haunting nature
Yeonmi Park (11:09.480)
to the end. And I guess spoiler alert, but you should have read this already. If you're
Yeonmi Park (11:16.480)
listening to this. At the end, the animals were looking to the humans and to the pigs
Lex Fridman (11:22.480)
and they couldn't see the difference. And then there's this kind of gradual transition
Yeonmi Park (11:28.480)
from the initial revolutionary steps of animals fighting for their freedom to slowly the pigs
Yeonmi Park (11:37.480)
gaining control, went from four legs good, two legs bad, to four legs good, two legs
Yeonmi Park (11:46.480)
better, I believe. Two legs even better, I think, something like that. So like gradually
Yeonmi Park (11:51.480)
transitioning the ideology under which the farm operates. And I think the gradual nature
Yeonmi Park (11:58.480)
of that, where basically you have generations born not knowing how things were in the past.
Lex Fridman (12:06.480)
And that's what makes the most kind of, for me, haunting transition from freedom to slavery
Yeonmi Park (12:16.480)
to suffering to injustice, all those things. And the animals don't know they're part of
Yeonmi Park (12:22.480)
that. And also for me personally, I always kind of found a kinship with Boxer the horse
Yeonmi Park (12:31.480)
because I just, I'm kind of an idiot, I just work really hard. And I just love the idea
Yeonmi Park (12:37.480)
of working hard for an ideal. And the tragic nature of, to the end, that horse, Boxer,
Yeonmi Park (12:47.480)
working his ass off for the pride for others. But yeah, for the pride of the farm, you know.
Lex Fridman (12:56.480)
And then the pigs giving him, sort of using that, but then just sending him to the slaughterhouse
Yeonmi Park (13:03.480)
anyway, when he was no longer useful. I mean, there's so many tragic elements that echo
Yeonmi Park (13:09.480)
everything I've seen in the Soviet Union. And many of the elements that you see in even
Yeonmi Park (13:14.480)
harsher, more drastic way in North Korea. If there's something hopeful you pull from
Yeonmi Park (13:19.480)
that book, like within the suffering, within the gradual decline, the taking away the freedom,
Yeonmi Park (13:26.480)
there were still moments of beauty, it seemed like.
Yeonmi Park (13:29.480)
It can be. But I think for me was when I was ending the last page of the book. Until that
Yeonmi Park (13:36.480)
point, I was angry towards the dictator. Why do you do this as a human being? I was so
Yeonmi Park (13:42.480)
angry, dreaming of killing him, right? Revenge on my father, the people that he killed.
Lex Fridman (13:47.480)
But when I was ending the last chapter, actually everybody was responsible to create this dystopia
Yeonmi Park (13:54.480)
in my country. The initial animals, when they're scared, when they see the first execution,
Lex Fridman (14:02.480)
and then they were not doing their job, speaking out and keep questioning. They had a question
Lex Fridman (14:07.480)
and then as soon as they see a fear, they silence. Because of that, that's when I was
Yeonmi Park (14:13.480)
like, my grandma knew life could be different. I think the one thing about North Koreans
Yeonmi Park (14:19.480)
are unique is that they don't know they're oppressed. They don't know that they are slaves
Yeonmi Park (14:24.480)
to the dictator. And the fact that other people know they're oppressed, like in America, a
Yeonmi Park (14:29.480)
lot of people think they are oppressed, like you are not oppressed. You don't even know
Yeonmi Park (14:33.480)
the definition of oppression. And that's like when the new animals came, the new animals
Yeonmi Park (14:39.480)
didn't even know what the life could be like. There's no alternative for them to compare
Lex Fridman (14:44.480)
even. And I was like, my grandmother knew. Why didn't they not do anything about it?
Lex Fridman (14:49.480)
And they were just scared. They kept silent. And everybody was responsible.
Lex Fridman (14:54.480)
So the people who knew were too afraid to say. And then there's people that just didn't
Yeonmi Park (15:01.480)
even know. And I don't know what's more terrifying about human nature, looking at this group
Yeonmi Park (15:07.480)
of people who are afraid to say that things could be otherwise, and then the group of
Lex Fridman (15:12.480)
people that don't even know it could be better.
Yeonmi Park (15:17.480)
No.
Yeonmi Park (15:18.480)
It's, I don't know, that's the reason I return to that book often, because it's such, maybe
Yeonmi Park (15:23.480)
because it's interesting using animals to represent ideas that were very human. It almost
Yeonmi Park (15:29.480)
allows you to explore the darkness of human nature without sort of being broken by it.
Lex Fridman (15:37.480)
So you mentioned anger. When I watch your interviews, you're really calm and collected.
Yeonmi Park (15:44.480)
Not just your interviews, you know, Instagram, the way you present yourself. You, I don't
Yeonmi Park (15:52.480)
know, it seems like you're almost at peace with the world. Is there in private times
Yeonmi Park (15:58.480)
when you're just angry? Do you feel fear? Do you go to dark places, depression, all
Yeonmi Park (16:04.480)
those kinds of things? Are you, are you able to put that world that you were in behind
Lex Fridman (16:09.480)
you?
Yeonmi Park (16:10.480)
It's a joke because I talk about North Korea every single day and I still rescue people
Yeonmi Park (16:17.480)
like from China and Russia and other countries, right? And sometimes I'll rescue mission
Yeonmi Park (16:23.480)
figures and they get captured and sent back. I still have people in North Korea report
Yeonmi Park (16:28.480)
to me. So like when I talked to my sister who chose to not be in this life, activist
Yeonmi Park (16:35.480)
life, she forgot most of things. And like for the other hand, I like to remember everything.
Lex Fridman (16:41.480)
So sometimes it's a blessing to keep reminded of how, because it's, you know, they say happiness
Yeonmi Park (16:50.480)
is a relative thing. It is sometimes. I mean, I think it's also people say because nobody
Yeonmi Park (16:56.480)
was foreign when you're growing up, everybody was suffering. You should have been okay,
Yeonmi Park (17:01.480)
right? But no, like if you are suffering in that degree, no matter, even if there's no
Yeonmi Park (17:07.480)
comparison, like if you're in Nazi Germany, in the Holocaust, right? In the concentration
Yeonmi Park (17:11.480)
camp, I'm sure nobody was better than them. I'm sure they were suffering. It's the same
Yeonmi Park (17:16.480)
thing. I suffered. But now because I'm in this place, I can compare easily, right? Getting
Yeonmi Park (17:22.480)
that perspective. But it is true, like I still have days that I cannot get out of bed. And
Yeonmi Park (17:27.480)
I really hoping like that when it was Elon Musk talking about downloading your brain,
Yeonmi Park (17:33.480)
blah, blah, blah. Maybe technology develops that I can download some part of my memory
Lex Fridman (17:39.480)
and then I can erase it or delete it. And that'd be so much better.
Lex Fridman (17:44.480)
What I, this is a, sorry for the tough question, but if I came to you, if Elon came to you
Lex Fridman (17:51.480)
and said, we can erase that part of your memory, would you do it?
Yeonmi Park (17:56.480)
Some days I would do it for sure. And my mom would do 100%. My sister would do it. All
Yeonmi Park (18:02.480)
other defectors know they do 100%. For me, I hesitated because I'm a witness. So if I
Yeonmi Park (18:10.480)
delete that part, I don't know how real that can be. But it is painful. After I talk, give
Yeonmi Park (18:17.480)
a speech, right? I mean, I'm fine. But somehow I'm depressed. Sometimes if the talk was very
Yeonmi Park (18:23.480)
intense, I'm like depressed for three weeks. It takes a while for me to be recharged. But
Lex Fridman (18:28.480)
I don't know why it is. I just don't know.
Yeonmi Park (18:32.480)
Well, there's also the, and there's a guy named Victor Franco who wrote the book, Man
Yeonmi Park (18:38.480)
Search for Meaning. And there's some aspect where, so he talks about the Holocaust and
Yeonmi Park (18:44.480)
that you can, in those moments of suffering, still discover meaning, still discover happiness
Yeonmi Park (18:49.480)
in the simplest of joys. Like while starving, a little piece of bread could be a source
Yeonmi Park (18:55.480)
of incredible joy. And there's some aspect in which that experience gives you a clarity
Yeonmi Park (19:04.480)
about the world. Like somehow experiencing suffering allows you to deeply experience
Yeonmi Park (19:11.480)
joy and love, and also empathize with the suffering of others. And it's almost like
Yeonmi Park (19:19.480)
brings you closer to other humans. This double edged sword that the highest of joys sometimes
Yeonmi Park (19:31.480)
are catalyzed by suffering. And it's hard to know what to do with that. You see that
Yeonmi Park (19:36.480)
with World War II, the stories of soldiers that have suffered, but some of the closest
Yeonmi Park (19:41.480)
bonds of brotherhood, of just pure love was experienced by them. And it sucks that our
Lex Fridman (19:49.480)
brains are like this. Love requires hardship. I don't know why that is.
Lex Fridman (19:55.480)
Yeah, that's like that thing. Of course, in my journey, I learned how to survive, right?
Lex Fridman (1:00:01.480)
literally. The common law that we have is not applicable. What about Kim Jong Un?
Yeonmi Park (1:00:10.480)
Kim Jong Un, yeah. Is he intentionally evil or is he mindlessly propagating an evil system
Lex Fridman (1:00:18.480)
created by his ancestors? What's your sense of the man?
Lex Fridman (1:00:22.480)
So with Kim Il Sung, I can give him more benefit of that. He was a initial true believer of
Yeonmi Park (1:00:29.480)
communism. But then as later he gained the power, he realizing, I guess back then he
Yeonmi Park (1:00:36.480)
thought most of people are dumb, right? Individuals dumb. So therefore I need to make a decision
Yeonmi Park (1:00:41.480)
for all of you. That pure arrogance came from out of him. Even that I can tolerate. Okay,
Yeonmi Park (1:00:47.480)
fine. And Kim Jong Il, who never like, yeah, fine. He grew up in that system too. But Kim
Yeonmi Park (1:00:53.480)
Jong Un is very unique. This guy was educated in Switzerland in the heart of democracy.
Yeonmi Park (1:01:02.480)
He knew how human beings should be treated. As a child, he went, when you're a child,
Yeonmi Park (1:01:09.480)
your brain is very susceptible, right? It will change anybody. Like why the mall was
Lex Fridman (1:01:14.480)
off, that's like changing young people's minds. Like that's every revolutionary they do, right?
Yeonmi Park (1:01:19.480)
They go change young people's minds first. This guy was so obsessed with power, him being
Yeonmi Park (1:01:25.480)
a God. Even starting in Switzerland didn't change him. And that's why I think that's
Yeonmi Park (1:01:31.480)
a pure evil. I can give him more benefit of that to his grandfather and father. But when
Yeonmi Park (1:01:37.480)
it comes to Kim Jong Un, this is like what pure evil looks like. Pure selfish being.
Lex Fridman (1:01:43.480)
That's what it looks like.
Yeonmi Park (1:01:46.480)
Is there some sense where he's justifying everything he's doing to himself? Or do you
Lex Fridman (1:01:51.480)
think there's a psychopathic aspect to where he enjoys the suffering?
Yeonmi Park (1:01:56.480)
I think in his life, right, I read a lot about like North Korea, a lot of CIA documents,
Yeonmi Park (1:02:02.480)
a lot of intelligence people worked there. And even like worked in North Korean type
Yeonmi Park (1:02:07.480)
elites and escaped. I could hear about them. So Kim Jong Un, when they are born, they treat
Yeonmi Park (1:02:13.480)
like gods. So they never have a sense of them being a human. They're like equal with the
Yeonmi Park (1:02:20.480)
others. For them, like we are just any kind of tool. Like that what Napoleon like thing
Yeonmi Park (1:02:26.480)
does, right? Anybody is a tool. Like once boxer dies, get him slaughtered for my cause.
Lex Fridman (1:02:32.480)
And they do not even feel guilty about it because they don't view us that you deserve
Yeonmi Park (1:02:36.480)
your worthy of it. Yeah, that's right. So it's not like he even feels, he doesn't even
Yeonmi Park (1:02:41.480)
recognize that's a suffering. Like of course this is what you do serving me. Because I
Yeonmi Park (1:02:48.480)
am, I am this. So I think that's like beyond that. It's not like suffering enters his
Yeonmi Park (1:02:54.480)
mind. He doesn't even think what we go through. So he thinks of himself as a god. And then
Yeonmi Park (1:03:00.480)
everybody else is just tools that they're disposable. Right. There was rumors several
Yeonmi Park (1:03:06.480)
times of him dying. Yeah. Do you think he is, obviously his health is not good. Do you
Yeonmi Park (1:03:14.480)
think he will die soon? What happens if Kim Jong Un dies? Well, when it comes to North
Yeonmi Park (1:03:21.480)
Korea, anybody knows what they're going, what Kim Jong Un does is lie, right? Nobody knows.
Yeonmi Park (1:03:26.480)
I'm sure CIA knows, but they may never reveal that. CIA has enough intelligence to can tell
Yeonmi Park (1:03:32.480)
where Kim Jong Un is, what he's doing. They just don't assassinate him because they don't
Yeonmi Park (1:03:37.480)
see the means of it right now. Do you think they can assassinate him? They can. They do
Yeonmi Park (1:03:42.480)
have ability to get assassinated. Why the hell did they not assassinate him? Because
Yeonmi Park (1:03:45.480)
they don't care. They don't care about the suffering of 25 million people. They got to
Yeonmi Park (1:03:50.480)
pay the price. If they assassinate Kim Jong Un, they got to pay the price afterwards.
Yeonmi Park (1:03:54.480)
There'll be financial, there'll be political price to pay. It'll anger China. Absolutely.
Yeonmi Park (1:04:00.480)
That is a huge piece for them. And then they'll have to deal, obviously there'll be financial
Lex Fridman (1:04:04.480)
and military consequences of having to deal with the turmoil, the uncertainty, the revolutions
Yeonmi Park (1:04:10.480)
that will spring up. Yeah. That's the thing. That's why they don't want to take that risk.
Yeonmi Park (1:04:15.480)
They don't want to do anything. The US now became very passive when they pursue these
Yeonmi Park (1:04:20.480)
moral values to the rest of the world. They did the same thing with the Holocaust in the
Yeonmi Park (1:04:24.480)
early days, actually. Yeah. They didn't care. And that's what their policy has been. They
Yeonmi Park (1:04:30.480)
don't care. So if Kim Jong Un dies, it's going to be very hard for North Korea to replace
Lex Fridman (1:04:37.480)
anybody in his position because Kim's is a brand. It's not just a leader for us, right?
Yeonmi Park (1:04:43.480)
Whenever we think of Kim, who came with my mind, who's almost a God figure. North Korea
Yeonmi Park (1:04:49.480)
is the number 10 religion in the world. They copied the Bible. So if you believe that,
Yeonmi Park (1:04:56.480)
if there are people who believe in God and Jesus Christ, how do you not believe that
Yeonmi Park (1:05:01.480)
North Koreans believe in the same thing? So Kim Il Sung's grandfather and his parents
Yeonmi Park (1:05:06.480)
were devout Christians. So Kim Il Sung grew up this Christian like verses. So when he
Yeonmi Park (1:05:14.480)
finding his country, he said, I love my people so much that I'm giving you my son Kim Jong
Yeonmi Park (1:05:20.480)
Il. His body dies, but his spirit is with us forever. Who can know how many here I have,
Lex Fridman (1:05:26.480)
what I think. And when we suffer, we go to paradise with him. And when you block every
Yeonmi Park (1:05:31.480)
single information going to country, of course, people are going to believe it. So who would
Yeonmi Park (1:05:36.480)
be the successor if he dies? He has a son, first son born 2009 and not not old enough
Yeonmi Park (1:05:45.480)
if he dies now. So either his sister might rule for a short amount of time as not like
Yeonmi Park (1:05:51.480)
a leader, but like we like temporary placement. And then when the son is older enough, he
Yeonmi Park (1:05:58.480)
might take it off because it's a kingdom. That's most likely and China will do everything
Yeonmi Park (1:06:02.480)
they can to maintain that status quo for the North Korean regime. So North Korean people
Yeonmi Park (1:06:10.480)
have no option here. We just need some leader to courageously come up and do the right thing.
Lex Fridman (1:06:17.480)
So we can't just wait this out. No, we can't. It's not something that takes its course
Lex Fridman (1:06:22.480)
and then change. Like we not even know that economic freedom does not bring political
Yeonmi Park (1:06:27.480)
freedom. We know in China, it doesn't. That's the unique thing about freedom. You got to
Yeonmi Park (1:06:33.480)
fight for it. Otherwise, you don't ever get it. Freedom is something that has to be fought.
Lex Fridman (1:06:38.480)
And if nobody fighting for freedom, it's not going to be there.
Yeonmi Park (1:06:43.480)
Can we talk a little bit about freedom? What does it mean to you? Having had, we talked
Yeonmi Park (1:06:49.480)
about love in that same way about freedom, having sort of discovered it later in life.
Lex Fridman (1:06:57.480)
What does it mean to you?
Yeonmi Park (1:06:59.480)
I think every day I get a new definition of freedom. It is a never ending journey, having
Yeonmi Park (1:07:07.480)
this relationship with being free and what it means to be free, right? I think you definitely
Yeonmi Park (1:07:17.480)
can live life without being free and also happy life too. I saw a lot of North Korean
Yeonmi Park (1:07:22.480)
elites who are fat and have power, but didn't have freedom, were very happy. In a way, happier
Yeonmi Park (1:07:28.480)
than the people that I found in New York were like investment bankers and consultants in
Yeonmi Park (1:07:33.480)
Manhattan and 70% of them go like talk therapist. I was very confused. I remember writing my
Yeonmi Park (1:07:41.480)
book in New York. My editor was saying, Yami, you know you're traumatized. You need to go
Yeonmi Park (1:07:47.480)
talk to a therapist. I was like, what is therapy? What is trauma? Because in North Korea, they
Lex Fridman (1:07:54.480)
don't have word for stress or trauma because how can you be stressed in a socialist paradise?
Yeonmi Park (1:07:59.480)
They don't let you be knowing what that is. Then they were like, yeah, hearing people
Yeonmi Park (1:08:05.480)
having problems, go talk to therapist. I was like, how much is it? $200 per hour and it's
Yeonmi Park (1:08:12.480)
a discounted rate too. I was like, no, thank you. We know that freedom comes with responsibility
Lex Fridman (1:08:23.480)
and in a way, it's not that easy to be free, thinking for yourself constantly. In a way,
Yeonmi Park (1:08:32.480)
I understand. Let's give government every power we have. Let them decide what education
Yeonmi Park (1:08:37.480)
that I get. Let them decide where I live. Let someone figure that out for me. That's
Lex Fridman (1:08:42.480)
how North Korea began, hoping the government is going to represent my own interests, believing
Yeonmi Park (1:08:48.480)
that they were good. With that benefit of doubt and good faith, it began the nightmare.
Yeonmi Park (1:08:56.480)
Freedom is not like a gateway to be happy at all. In a way, it can make life a lot more
Yeonmi Park (1:09:01.480)
complex, but then it's fun, isn't it? You start thinking for yourself. You start making
Yeonmi Park (1:09:07.480)
mistakes. It's so fun to be free, even though you can be suffering way more than the people
Lex Fridman (1:09:13.480)
who are not free.
Yeonmi Park (1:09:14.480)
The thing about freedom is when you have freedom, you also have the responsibility for your
Yeonmi Park (1:09:19.480)
actions. That could be a huge burden because if you succeed, it's you, but if you fail,
Yeonmi Park (1:09:28.480)
it's you. If you do horrible things, it's you. If you don't do something, for example,
Yeonmi Park (1:09:34.480)
if you don't help people in North Korea, it's you. That's a huge burden. Living with that
Yeonmi Park (1:09:41.480)
burden is a kind of suffering. There's some aspect in which freedom is suffering.
Lex Fridman (1:09:46.480)
It is suffering.
Yeonmi Park (1:09:47.480)
Because life is suffering, and then freedom is you as an individual fully living through
Yeonmi Park (1:09:54.480)
that. See, you talked, you're friends with Michael Malice. He believes, and so I want
Yeonmi Park (1:10:01.480)
to kind of ask you about government. He believes, he's an anarchist, and he believes kind of
Yeonmi Park (1:10:07.480)
in freedom fully implemented in human societies, meaning that humans should all be free to
Yeonmi Park (1:10:19.480)
choose how they, you know, transact with each other, how they live together. There shouldn't
Yeonmi Park (1:10:25.480)
be a centralized force that tells you what to do. Do you think there's some role for
Lex Fridman (1:10:31.480)
government in a healthy society?
Lex Fridman (1:10:35.480)
Yeah.
Yeonmi Park (1:10:36.480)
If we look at North Korea, there's the most horrible implementation of government, but
Yeonmi Park (1:10:42.480)
then if we look at what the United States strives to be, at least in principle, there's
Yeonmi Park (1:10:49.480)
an ideal of a government that represents the people and helps the people. Is there a place
Lex Fridman (1:10:55.480)
for that kind of ideal, or is government always going to get us into trouble?
Lex Fridman (1:10:59.480)
I am not, I mean, I spoke to Michael Malice. I kept asking why he's an anarchist, right?
Lex Fridman (1:11:05.480)
And he doesn't even believe in military, none of that thing. And I was like, I don't think
Yeonmi Park (1:11:11.480)
I want to be in that world you're describing. That's pretty scary. I want the law enforcement.
Yeonmi Park (1:11:17.480)
I want like, I don't, in a way that, so why equality makes no sense is that the fact that
Yeonmi Park (1:11:26.480)
when you and I were born, we were born in a very different capability of thinking, different
Yeonmi Park (1:11:31.480)
intelligence, different capability in our physics, right? So equality is nonsense. You
Yeonmi Park (1:11:36.480)
can never achieve that, right? So to me, that's been, it's very scary in America.
Lex Fridman (1:11:43.480)
When the government tries to enforce.
Yeonmi Park (1:11:45.480)
To make equality on everybody, that is impossible.
Yeonmi Park (1:11:48.480)
Specifically equality of outcome. So like, so given that we all started different places,
Yeonmi Park (1:11:53.480)
enforce, like measure in some kind of way where people stand, and if they're an equal,
Yeonmi Park (1:11:58.480)
enforce equality. And that's what leads to the kind of things that you mentioned with
Yeonmi Park (1:12:03.480)
the class system in North Korea.
Yeonmi Park (1:12:06.480)
Yeah. So I think that's why government can be bad. They can be very dumb. And another
Yeonmi Park (1:12:12.480)
thing is that they cannot know what you want. A lot of times people don't even know what
Yeonmi Park (1:12:17.480)
they want as an individual. Like how the heck do you assume government is going to know
Lex Fridman (1:12:22.480)
what is best for you? Nobody knows. We just all do our best. I do think though some governments
Yeonmi Park (1:12:28.480)
like in Switzerland, you know, have more power, give power to the different state can be good.
Yeonmi Park (1:12:34.480)
I think I'm more, you know, like giving power to the state and let individual decide where
Yeonmi Park (1:12:39.480)
they want to go in within states. Like, I mean, why did you choose Texas, right? There's
Yeonmi Park (1:12:45.480)
no income tax, right? Like there's a lot of things people find Texas, like, you know,
Yeonmi Park (1:12:50.480)
charming and they come here. So in a way that I don't want to be in a one strong government
Yeonmi Park (1:12:56.480)
that makes every single thing the same way. In a way, I want to kind of experiment to
Yeonmi Park (1:13:01.480)
everything. We can have anarchy state. There's no police, nothing going on. You can be whatever
Yeonmi Park (1:13:08.480)
you want. And you can go to a state where it's like abortion is bad, blah, blah, this
Yeonmi Park (1:13:13.480)
is bad. All this like conservative values. And let the ideas compete and let them how
Yeonmi Park (1:13:19.480)
they're being practiced in real life. But I think it's very scary when the US government
Yeonmi Park (1:13:25.480)
is getting bigger and bigger and then they try to make every state under one big government.
Lex Fridman (1:13:32.480)
And that's like when I get really alarmed.
Yeonmi Park (1:13:35.480)
Are there things that you see in the United States in the current culture that's kind
Lex Fridman (1:13:40.480)
of has echoes of the same things you saw in North Korea that worry you?
Yeonmi Park (1:13:47.480)
Absolutely. It's in America now the meritocracy doesn't matter, right? It's evil. The white
Yeonmi Park (1:13:56.480)
man's idea of talking about if you're competent enough, they say, oh, if you're coming from
Yeonmi Park (1:14:02.480)
rich white family, you are going to be competent. So other people don't have a chance. But look
Yeonmi Park (1:14:07.480)
at Asians who came from nothing as competent and go to Harvard Law School and medical school.
Lex Fridman (1:14:13.480)
So it doesn't almost is like there's no incentive for you to work hard anymore in the system
Yeonmi Park (1:14:19.480)
right now. That is North Korea. There's no incentive because you are born with your class
Yeonmi Park (1:14:24.480)
already. So no matter what you do, you can never. So the horrible thing about North Korean
Yeonmi Park (1:14:29.480)
system is that there's nothing holding Mary up. So if you're coming from other cultures
Yeonmi Park (1:14:35.480)
that like Meghan Markle joined the royal family and she became a lawyer, you go up by North
Yeonmi Park (1:14:40.480)
Korea. If someone from high class going to marry somebody down, you only go down with
Lex Fridman (1:14:45.480)
them. That's how they prevent class mix.
Yeonmi Park (1:14:48.480)
Right. That kind of enforces the separation because there's a huge disincentives to go
Yeonmi Park (1:14:54.480)
to marry to integrate between classes. What do you do about this kind of, you know, especially
Yeonmi Park (1:15:03.480)
universities, but in companies, I'm thinking about starting a company. So I'm looking at
Yeonmi Park (1:15:08.480)
this very carefully. There's these ideas of diversity and meritocracy. That's a tension.
Lex Fridman (1:15:15.480)
So I think there's a big way in which diversity broadly defined is not at all in a tension
Yeonmi Park (1:15:25.480)
with meritocracy. So having a variety of people, backgrounds, way of thinking, all those kinds
Yeonmi Park (1:15:33.480)
of things is a huge benefit to any group. But the way diversity is often defined is
Yeonmi Park (1:15:40.480)
by sort of very crude classes of people, whether it's by skin color or gender or some very
Yeonmi Park (1:15:48.480)
kind of large group way. And that actually does two things in my mind. One, it drowns
Yeonmi Park (1:15:55.480)
out real diversity or not real, but the full spectrum of diversity, which is like within
Lex Fridman (1:16:02.480)
class diversity of like, are you somebody who is exceptionally good at mathematics?
Yeonmi Park (1:16:13.480)
Are you somebody who's exceptionally good at psychology? Are you good with people? Are
Yeonmi Park (1:16:17.480)
you good with numbers? All that kind of stuff that I think spans or intersects in fascinating
Yeonmi Park (1:16:23.480)
ways with these kinds of groups. So that's diversity. And then meritocracy is this thing
Yeonmi Park (1:16:29.480)
that probably the reason I wanted to move to Silicon Valley and the reason I didn't
Yeonmi Park (1:16:34.480)
is like having a fire to change the world within you. Like meritocracy is like, I want
Yeonmi Park (1:16:40.480)
to be the best in the world at this and I will strive and work hard, not stepping on
Yeonmi Park (1:16:45.480)
others, but like purely within yourself, be the best version of yourself. That idea is
Yeonmi Park (1:16:54.480)
in some ways being not celebrated or demonized. It's literally meritocracy is being demonized
Yeonmi Park (1:17:03.480)
right now in America. Working hard is a symbol of you coming from some established family.
Yeonmi Park (1:17:10.480)
The fact that you celebrate accomplishment, hard work is a sign of your patriarchal,
Yeonmi Park (1:17:17.480)
whatever thing they call it. And they want to abolish that. They want to like stop giving
Yeonmi Park (1:17:23.480)
kids grades. That's what they're already doing, right? They want to stop. They want to like
Yeonmi Park (1:17:28.480)
we should abolish like SAT in America they take to go to college, right? They won't even
Yeonmi Park (1:17:33.480)
abolish that. Yeah, some kids have no ability to do math. So why do we have to force them
Yeonmi Park (1:17:39.480)
to learn math? And that's what comes with humans overcome challenges. That's what makes
Yeonmi Park (1:17:44.480)
us special. But then like, because it's kids coming from this family, let's find a reason
Lex Fridman (1:17:49.480)
why they cannot, and then they don't have to do that thing. But they still deserve the
Yeonmi Park (1:17:53.480)
same job. They need to be a lawyer and doctors. And that's like what in North Korea was like
Yeonmi Park (1:17:59.480)
not, there was not even meritocracy beginning with, right? Did you born in the same family,
Yeonmi Park (1:18:05.480)
the family, the blood, right? Like if one person does something wrong, it's like collective
Yeonmi Park (1:18:11.480)
guilt. Because I spoke out, three generations of my family got punished, who I left behind.
Lex Fridman (1:18:17.480)
And then in America, I see the same thing. Like if you're somehow great, great grandfather
Yeonmi Park (1:18:23.480)
on the slave, now you are privileged and you're guilty because you are white and guilt. But
Lex Fridman (1:18:30.480)
how do you change your ancestor? How did you have a saying on it? And that is where there's
Yeonmi Park (1:18:36.480)
no way out. There's no forgiving, there's no moving forwards. And this current culture
Yeonmi Park (1:18:41.480)
in America now, like I remember at Columbia, like before class, everybody had to go around
Yeonmi Park (1:18:47.480)
saying, tell us what your pronoun is. And my English, my third language, I learned as
Yeonmi Park (1:18:53.480)
an adult. Even saying he and she, I'm confused. It's a pure mistake. And they say, call me
Yeonmi Park (1:19:00.480)
they, because I'm gender fluid. Basically, I can be a girl, but next hour you talk to
Yeonmi Park (1:19:04.480)
me, I'm a boy, right? And if you don't do it right, they like look at you, why are you
Yeonmi Park (1:19:10.480)
doing it? Right? It makes me so nervous. And this is where I come to, this is a regression
Yeonmi Park (1:19:16.480)
of civilization. We are regressing as a humanity here. Like the enlightenment, all of those
Yeonmi Park (1:19:23.480)
things made us so much brighter and looking forward. And now we are going backwards.
Yeonmi Park (1:19:28.480)
Well, I think there's a pendulum aspect to it because it's my hope in terms of backwards.
Lex Fridman (1:19:33.480)
So pendulum goes backwards too, but it just goes back and forth, I think. And then in
Yeonmi Park (1:19:38.480)
the long arc of history, we're making progress. I think all of the discussions of diversity
Lex Fridman (1:19:44.480)
and inclusion and all those kinds of things, I always thought that they're healthy in moderation.
Yeonmi Park (1:19:51.480)
They should be a small part of the conversation amongst other things. The natural aspect,
Yeonmi Park (1:19:57.480)
it seems that they kind of have this way of just consuming all conversations. It's like
Yeonmi Park (1:20:03.480)
the meetings, like diversity and inclusion meetings multiply somehow, where it's like
Yeonmi Park (1:20:08.480)
the only thing that you're talking about. And it's very kind of absurd. And when I look
Yeonmi Park (1:20:12.480)
at, even at MIT, it's a strangely disproportionate amount of discussions about that. And also
Yeonmi Park (1:20:20.480)
to me as an engineer, those discussions are very frustrating because they don't seem to
Yeonmi Park (1:20:25.480)
actually do anything. So they want to bully people instead of creating systems that fix
Yeonmi Park (1:20:36.480)
definitive problems. And that in itself, that kind of bullying, that's the same kind of
Yeonmi Park (1:20:42.480)
thing you saw in terms of McCarthyism in America against the communists. You certainly saw
Yeonmi Park (1:20:47.480)
that in Soviet Union against everybody who's not communist. It creates hate, not progress.
Yeonmi Park (1:20:55.480)
When you talked to Jordan Peterson recently, and people should listen to that conversation,
Yeonmi Park (1:20:59.480)
it was a fascinating one. I think he almost got emotional on the discussion about universities
Lex Fridman (1:21:10.480)
and your experience with Columbia because he, like myself, for perhaps different reasons,
Yeonmi Park (1:21:16.480)
have a hope for our academic institutions. Some of the most incredible people, some of
Yeonmi Park (1:21:21.480)
the most incredible engineering and idea development, innovation happens in universities. And so
Yeonmi Park (1:21:27.480)
we both deeply care about them. Is there something, so the reason he got emotional, the reason
Yeonmi Park (1:21:35.480)
he was kind of hurt is the fact that you did not, you were not deeply inspired by your
Lex Fridman (1:21:44.480)
experience at Columbia.
Yeonmi Park (1:21:46.480)
It made me dumber. It made me scared. It made me terrified that I had to censor myself in
Yeonmi Park (1:21:54.480)
America. Are you seriously telling me that you don't ever censor yourself? Can you truly
Yeonmi Park (1:22:01.480)
say whatever you want about race, about anything, gender? We all censor ourselves. Let's be
Yeonmi Park (1:22:09.480)
honest, right? We are all doing that. And that's what I learned. I thought I was coming
Yeonmi Park (1:22:15.480)
to a country where never needed, like first thing my mom taught me growing up in North
Yeonmi Park (1:22:20.480)
Korea was, don't even whisper because the birds and mice could hear you. And I thought,
Yeonmi Park (1:22:27.480)
okay, now America is truly the land of the free, home of the brave. You can say anything
Yeonmi Park (1:22:32.480)
you want, and then you have freedom to change your mind and evolve. But the people now demand
Yeonmi Park (1:22:38.480)
you to be the perfect version they demand you to be. You cannot change your mind. And
Yeonmi Park (1:22:43.480)
then what is the meaning of life if you cannot grow? You should feel safe to talk about anything,
Lex Fridman (1:22:49.480)
and then later, okay, I was wrong. But now if you do that, you got to get penalized
Lex Fridman (1:22:53.480)
for it.
Yeonmi Park (1:22:54.480)
I mean, censorship is a funny thing because you probably should not say dumb things. You
Yeonmi Park (1:22:59.480)
should try to say things you want to say in the most eloquent, the most effective way
Yeonmi Park (1:23:04.480)
you can. So, I mean, that's what editing is, right? So there's some level of like being
Yeonmi Park (1:23:10.480)
careful with what you say, not because you're afraid of some overarching kind of group of
Yeonmi Park (1:23:17.480)
bullies, but you want to be the best version of yourself when you express stuff. But there's
Yeonmi Park (1:23:22.480)
some sense where in the university setting, you can put that self censorship like level
Yeonmi Park (1:23:27.480)
down more and say stupid stuff and explain and play because you should be forgiven for
Yeonmi Park (1:23:33.480)
that kind of play, especially when you're discussing difficult aspects of human history,
Yeonmi Park (1:23:39.480)
whether that include racism, that include atrocities. I'm still nevertheless sort of
Yeonmi Park (1:23:46.480)
hopeful, but at the same time, I'm surrounded by engineers. So I don't get to interact with
Yeonmi Park (1:23:53.480)
people in humanities much. And it seems like there's getting worse.
Lex Fridman (1:23:57.480)
It's a good thing. It's a good thing.
Yeonmi Park (1:23:59.480)
Yeah, I don't know. Well, I do sort of interact with psychologists, but they haven't touched
Yeonmi Park (1:24:07.480)
on those kinds of topics yet. I still, sort of in defense of psychology, I still, I wish
Yeonmi Park (1:24:14.480)
I had more numbers.
Lex Fridman (1:24:15.480)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:24:16.480)
But I still feel like most psychology people don't partake in this kind of stuff either.
Yeonmi Park (1:24:22.480)
They're just doing excellent research. We're just highlighting, this is what America does
Yeonmi Park (1:24:26.480)
well. You're kind of highlighting anecdotal experiences and making a big deal out of them.
Lex Fridman (1:24:35.480)
But that's good because like it's a slippery slope. If those things start to overtake all
Yeonmi Park (1:24:40.480)
of academia, it starts becoming a big problem, even in the engineering field. So we should
Yeonmi Park (1:24:44.480)
be concerned. But it is truly tragic that somebody who's exceptionally well read like
Yeonmi Park (1:24:49.480)
you, whose fire was stoked first with Orwell, that fire should burn bright. Like this should
Yeonmi Park (1:24:56.480)
not be, you should be writing many books. You know what I mean? Like, and you'll be,
Yeonmi Park (1:25:03.480)
you talk to Jordan, you know, it's very possible depending what you want to do with your life
Yeonmi Park (1:25:08.480)
that you'll be a future Jordan Peterson, right? So like that, and Columbia should be a place
Yeonmi Park (1:25:14.480)
that enriches your mind. And the fact that it didn't is tragic.
Yeonmi Park (1:25:21.480)
I mean, I did the same. It's like I was there four years. It wasn't like I had a one class
Yeonmi Park (1:25:26.480)
that was bad in a one semester. That was the thing. When Dr. Piro was asking, is there
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any one class that had no sentiment of this virtue, signoring, politically right? There
Yeonmi Park (1:25:38.480)
was none. Entire course, I think I took 126 credits total. Not even one class. Doesn't
Yeonmi Park (1:25:48.480)
matter we were talking about classic art. And that's the thing. I literally thought,
Yeonmi Park (1:25:52.480)
okay, I pushed the last semester to call like the art and music, right? So I thought this
Yeonmi Park (1:25:57.480)
is going to be the least politically correct class I can take. And then it begins with
Yeonmi Park (1:26:02.480)
who has problem with calling this course the Western civilization of art and music. And
Yeonmi Park (1:26:08.480)
everyone's like raising their hands. Because like, why do we have to learning about this
Yeonmi Park (1:26:12.480)
Beethoven, Mozart, the bigots, and all the people, like, you know, everything ruined
Yeonmi Park (1:26:18.480)
by white men. And it's even music, even these paintings. And as I didn't raise my hand,
Yeonmi Park (1:26:26.480)
everyone was looking at me. How do you not have the problem with this? Like you should
Yeonmi Park (1:26:30.480)
hate this, you're Asian. So I think that's the thing is I think the problems are way
Yeonmi Park (1:26:36.480)
deeper than what people think. And that's what when I learned is like, it's not that
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safe in America, we can go complete to the south. And looking at even Europe, that is
Yeonmi Park (1:26:50.480)
like, I used to be way more optimistic. But now I actually see, wow, this country can
Yeonmi Park (1:26:57.480)
go to south. And we might, if US forced them, right, this is the only country left to battle
Yeonmi Park (1:27:03.480)
with the Communist Party in China. We may lose the opportunity to be free ever again
Lex Fridman (1:27:08.480)
as a humanity.
Yeonmi Park (1:27:10.480)
Wow. So I mean, that puts a lot of value on having these kinds of conversations. It
Yeonmi Park (1:27:15.480)
is, I mean, I'm troubled. I'm troubled by a lot of things. But like censorship on YouTube,
Yeonmi Park (1:27:20.480)
for example. Yeah, it was very annoying to have to listen to Donald Trump all the time.
Yeonmi Park (1:27:26.480)
Just like create drama, like news cycle was completely drowned out by Donald Trump. But
Yeonmi Park (1:27:31.480)
like banning him from Twitter, it was like, that was scary for me, because it's like,
Yeonmi Park (1:27:42.480)
that's a step towards a direction where you're going to, like, where does that take us? You're
Yeonmi Park (1:27:48.480)
going to silence people, then it's like Jordan Peterson is next.
Yeonmi Park (1:27:53.480)
That's why we need to promote freedom of thinking and speech, right? And the one thing that
Yeonmi Park (1:27:58.480)
I love about Dr. Peterson is, he's a psychologist, right? He talks about we think by talking.
Yeonmi Park (1:28:08.480)
That's why when you go to therapy, you talk and then you hear yourself and then you think
Lex Fridman (1:28:12.480)
and you come up to the answer. It's so important for humans to talk so we can think. So when
Yeonmi Park (1:28:19.480)
they say you cannot talk means you cannot think. And they don't know the consequences
Yeonmi Park (1:28:24.480)
of that. And this is why I promote, I want the freedom of speech, even though it hurts,
Yeonmi Park (1:28:31.480)
ridiculous, you know, sometimes it can be dangerous. But the price, the alternative
Yeonmi Park (1:28:37.480)
is so bad that we should take the, you know, make this trade off. Everything has a trade
Yeonmi Park (1:28:42.480)
off in this world. And it comes with a sacrifice, right? So I think that's what I want to say.
Yeonmi Park (1:28:48.480)
That's what I want to see in America. But it's unfortunately like the people like you
Yeonmi Park (1:28:53.480)
say, who decides what is hate speech? What is dangerous? That's what I've been getting
Yeonmi Park (1:28:59.480)
scared. Because everybody's imperfect. How do we want to give that power to them? And
Yeonmi Park (1:29:05.480)
they're going to decide, today they might agree with me, say, okay, your speech is good,
Yeonmi Park (1:29:09.480)
promotes good, and then they might come back next year and say your speech is bad. What
Yeonmi Park (1:29:14.480)
are you going to do when that happens to you? We have to almost like get ideas out and then
Yeonmi Park (1:29:19.480)
play with them. I think what's a really important component of that is forgiving each other
Yeonmi Park (1:29:23.480)
for like realizing that we're a different person day by day and certainly years later.
Lex Fridman (1:29:31.480)
And I think some of that is both cultural mechanisms of saying like we forgive each
Yeonmi Park (1:29:36.480)
other for wrong ideas or not wrong ideas, but for who we are, the full evolution of
Yeonmi Park (1:29:42.480)
the human being, for the steps we've taken on that evolution, and also creating mechanisms
Yeonmi Park (1:29:48.480)
that allow you to allow us to forgive each other. Like, for example, on Twitter is like
Yeonmi Park (1:29:56.480)
horrible with this because one of the main viral ways that people create drama on Twitter
Yeonmi Park (1:30:02.480)
is like pulling up an old tweet that somebody said, right? And then saying, oh, this is
Yeonmi Park (1:30:08.480)
the guy that thinks that. But that's like the opposite of the mechanisms we need to
Yeonmi Park (1:30:14.480)
forgive ourselves, forgive each other for the things we've said in the past. And so
Yeonmi Park (1:30:20.480)
part of that is the cultural, part of this is the technological mechanisms. You mentioned
Lex Fridman (1:30:28.480)
Jordan Peterson. You had a great conversation with him. What was chatting with him like?
Yeonmi Park (1:30:34.480)
I'm just curious because he's deeply passionate, especially on the Soviet Union side about
Yeonmi Park (1:30:40.480)
the atrocities of these kinds of systems. What was it like? What did you agree with
Yeonmi Park (1:30:46.480)
him on? What did you disagree? What were some things you both kind of learned from each
Lex Fridman (1:30:52.480)
other through that conversation, do you think? So here, so my story, the Jordan
Yeonmi Park (1:30:57.480)
Peterson, a very long one. So one day I was walking down in Chicago, and they were like
Yeonmi Park (1:31:04.480)
huge theater was sold out. It says a big letter, Jordan Peterson sold out. And then it was
Yeonmi Park (1:31:11.480)
a huge theater in the middle of Chicago, right? Like, this is my comedian, like who can be
Yeonmi Park (1:31:15.480)
selling this entire thing out at like 7pm? And then with my ex husband, we were walking
Yeonmi Park (1:31:22.480)
the street. And then we saw people were like selling this like tickets, like for a very
Yeonmi Park (1:31:28.480)
higher price, right? And then do you want to take it? And then he was like, yeah, sure.
Yeonmi Park (1:31:33.480)
We went in, it's packed. And then I was just happy birth or like, but I wasn't able to
Yeonmi Park (1:31:42.480)
understand his English that much. My English was still bad. And you didn't know who he
Yeonmi Park (1:31:46.480)
was really? No, no. You were just curious? Yeah, it was like 2018. Who's the guy that
Yeonmi Park (1:31:50.480)
sells out a thing? A theater? Yeah. Yes, I saw Dave Rubin came out before him and make
Yeonmi Park (1:31:56.480)
jokes. I still don't know who Dave Rubin is. Afterwards, I met them all. But back then
Yeonmi Park (1:32:00.480)
I had no clue what that is. And then he was giving lessons. But what I got from that night
Yeonmi Park (1:32:05.480)
was not what Jordan said, but what people did on the audience. These people like I don't
Yeonmi Park (1:32:12.480)
know, thousands of people in this big theater, crying like babies. And that was like, whatever
Yeonmi Park (1:32:20.480)
that guy is doing is very special, right? He wasn't like making any jokes. He had no
Yeonmi Park (1:32:25.480)
slides, just a one simple person standing in the huge, giant theater talk. And long
Yeonmi Park (1:32:31.480)
time too. And people cry as like, wow, okay, whatever that is, I gotta check it out. And
Yeonmi Park (1:32:38.480)
then I got home. And then later, many years later, I got a book. And I will start reading
Yeonmi Park (1:32:43.480)
his book. And it talks about, it explains so much, right? Like now at Columbia, I learned
Yeonmi Park (1:32:49.480)
like everything gender is like made up concept, construct, like the hierarchy is my man's
Yeonmi Park (1:32:55.480)
idea of making the hierarchy. And then he begins with the number one, the laughsers
Yeonmi Park (1:33:00.480)
had the hierarchies, evolution of history that is within us, that we want a hierarchy,
Lex Fridman (1:33:06.480)
right? And then chapter five about socialization of child, you know, how do you raise them?
Lex Fridman (1:33:12.480)
And all of it, and then what's why telling the truth is matters, right? And there's a
Yeonmi Park (1:33:19.480)
white, like in his entire 12 lessons, I read it and it's like, I was so grateful that I'm
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alive with this. There's people always say, if Socrates is alive, how much would you pay
Yeonmi Park (1:33:30.480)
to have lunch with him? That kind of thing, right? So for me it was like, okay, I'm like
Yeonmi Park (1:33:36.480)
alive in the same contemporary world as one of the greatest thinkers of my entire generation.
Lex Fridman (1:33:42.480)
And then like, how much money would I pay? No limit amount. And I like reached out to
Yeonmi Park (1:33:53.480)
Michaela on her podcast on Twitter and connected. And then one day she said, do you want to
Yeonmi Park (1:33:57.480)
be on Michaela's podcast? I was like, what? I was like, of course. And I was very nervous,
Lex Fridman (1:34:05.480)
but I didn't expect him to be like that connected. Cause I thought he was a psychologist, like
Yeonmi Park (1:34:13.480)
he saw so much suffering in the world. He studied Soviet Union, his hobbies collecting
Yeonmi Park (1:34:18.480)
those things to remind him of the suffering of a human being. So sometimes some people
Yeonmi Park (1:34:24.480)
hear so much atrocity, they become like very, you know, not engaged.
Lex Fridman (1:34:29.480)
Yeah, desensitized.
Yeonmi Park (1:34:30.480)
Desensitized.
Yeonmi Park (1:34:31.480)
He felt, he was feeling, he was, it's almost like he was living through the experiences
Yeonmi Park (1:34:35.480)
with you as you were talking about it. It was an amazing conversation. So Jordan is
Yeonmi Park (1:34:39.480)
one of the great thinkers of our time, but I would say the greatest thinkers of our time
Yeonmi Park (1:34:43.480)
is Michael Malus. So you've also got a chance to talk to him. So he wrote a book on North
Yeonmi Park (1:34:49.480)
Korea. It's an interesting style book. I learned a lot from it. I learned a lot from Michael
Yeonmi Park (1:34:55.480)
about it. And it's interesting that he chose North Korea as a thing to study. That he,
Yeonmi Park (1:35:02.480)
of all people, this fascinating human being that is Michael, chose this darkest of aspects
Yeonmi Park (1:35:10.480)
of humanity to study. What do you think of Michael? What do you think of his book on
Lex Fridman (1:35:17.480)
North Korea called Dear Reader that people should definitely check out?
Yeonmi Park (1:35:20.480)
Absolutely. So back then, when I reached out to Michael through mutual friends in South
Yeonmi Park (1:35:25.480)
Korea, my English wasn't good. So I got a copy in my hand. I tried to read and a lot
Yeonmi Park (1:35:33.480)
of them I didn't understand. So, but I thought it was very fascinating how he explained North
Yeonmi Park (1:35:40.480)
Korea through the Dear Leader's perspective, right? Nobody has ever done that. And you
Yeonmi Park (1:35:45.480)
can reveal so much about the state and absurdity of the entire situation. And also through
Yeonmi Park (1:35:52.480)
humor. And that's what's amazing about Michael. He knows the full gravity of tragedy. He knows
Yeonmi Park (1:35:59.480)
the full suffering. He's not just like people here in America on the BuzzFeed making fun
Yeonmi Park (1:36:04.480)
of Kim Jong Un's haircut. They don't care what people go through. Michael cares.
Yeonmi Park (1:36:09.480)
Deeply cares. And then he still does ridiculous jokes. So that kind of reveals in a dark way
Lex Fridman (1:36:16.480)
the absurdity of evil. And he does that masterfully. Do you?
Yeonmi Park (1:36:22.480)
He's a genius. He is definitely a genius.
Yeonmi Park (1:36:25.480)
All right. If he watches this, let's not make his head too big here. But is there some
Yeonmi Park (1:36:34.480)
aspect to, I mean, there is an absurdity to the whole thing. Kim Jong Un is this, I mean,
Lex Fridman (1:36:43.480)
he's almost like a caricature of evil.
Yeonmi Park (1:36:45.480)
It's a joke.
Lex Fridman (1:36:46.480)
It's a joke.
Yeonmi Park (1:36:47.480)
A lot of people think it's a joke. They just think like, this is too, too absurd. They
Yeonmi Park (1:36:52.480)
just, they laugh. Like, can you imagine you laugh at Holocaust? This is that ridiculous.
Lex Fridman (1:36:58.480)
Can you maybe psychoanalyze that a little bit? Because that's where my mind goes to.
Yeonmi Park (1:37:04.480)
Like, he's so ridiculous that you can't, it's almost like hard to believe this is real.
Yeonmi Park (1:37:14.480)
Is that just, is that just my kind of and people's desire to escape the cruelty of reality
Lex Fridman (1:37:23.480)
by just kind of making a joke out of it?
Yeonmi Park (1:37:25.480)
I think it is a few things, right? Like, so North Korea as a nation, number one or number
Lex Fridman (1:37:34.480)
two smartest IQ people in the world, despite their malnutrition. So...
Lex Fridman (1:37:41.480)
So there is, I mean, that's an interesting point. So in your sense, the people...
Lex Fridman (1:37:48.480)
Are not dumb.
Yeonmi Park (1:37:49.480)
Still carry the sort of the brilliance. There's a culture there that's like hungry to become
Yeonmi Park (1:37:57.480)
realized. Like the people that are silenced by the electricity, by the actually having
Yeonmi Park (1:38:04.480)
no food, all those kinds of things. Like, if you add the electricity, if you add the
Lex Fridman (1:38:08.480)
food, you're going to have a cultural center of the world.
Yeonmi Park (1:38:11.480)
Like South Korea. That's what they exactly did, right? The exact same Korea. One became
Yeonmi Park (1:38:16.480)
like 11th largest economy. One became the world's most like poorest nation, right? And
Yeonmi Park (1:38:23.480)
this is a perfect example. Like if, I don't know if you read that book, Why Nation Fails.
Yeonmi Park (1:38:28.480)
The system. It's not about a culture. It is not about people. It is not about IQ. What
Yeonmi Park (1:38:34.480)
makes us too different is a system. South Korea, North Korea is a perfect example of
Yeonmi Park (1:38:40.480)
that. One is exact same capability. We are a homogeneous country, same language, tradition,
Yeonmi Park (1:38:46.480)
all of that. We gave them different system. One is free democracy, one is dictatorship
Lex Fridman (1:38:52.480)
and came up with the biggest different result. And I think North Korea reveals that to us.
Yeonmi Park (1:38:59.480)
It's not because we are great that we are living in this prosperity. Free market. The
Yeonmi Park (1:39:05.480)
ideas gave us to this. The system we built, our ancestors built, gave us this privilege.
Yeonmi Park (1:39:12.480)
It's not us. Nothing is about us being special here, right? The system that we have is quite
Yeonmi Park (1:39:18.480)
special. And North Korea proves that to us. It doesn't matter even if you're smart. That's
Yeonmi Park (1:39:25.480)
all irrelevant. And I think that's why people just keep denying that they want to feel special.
Yeonmi Park (1:39:32.480)
Because I'm awesome, I got all of this. No, it's not you, you got this. And when people
Lex Fridman (1:39:38.480)
say, I hate capitalism. I was like, without capitalism, how do you came up with this thing?
Lex Fridman (1:39:44.480)
Literally, how did you come up with this?
Yeonmi Park (1:39:47.480)
The systems matter. And they matter way more than this individualistic society would like
Yeonmi Park (1:39:57.480)
to imagine. It is the most important thing you can have in life. Choosing the right system.
Lex Fridman (1:40:08.480)
Do you have advice for young people today? You've lived an incredible life and you have,
Yeonmi Park (1:40:14.480)
I hope, an incredible life ahead of you. What advice would you give to young people today,
Yeonmi Park (1:40:20.480)
high schoolers, college students, how to be successful in their career or maybe successful
Lex Fridman (1:40:28.480)
in life?
Yeonmi Park (1:40:30.480)
Last thing I want them to feel is guilty. It doesn't do anything, right? So I hate when
Yeonmi Park (1:40:39.480)
people talk about, oh, why guilt? It's like, that doesn't make even any sense, right? I
Yeonmi Park (1:40:44.480)
think the fact that they are born with freedom is a blessing for all of us. It's not like
Yeonmi Park (1:40:51.480)
I want them to want to do something because they are guilty. I want them to do something
Yeonmi Park (1:40:56.480)
because they are grateful. It is true. Like we are sitting here, the fact why I have children
Yeonmi Park (1:41:02.480)
is suffering, having kids you don't sleep, costly, like so much work. Like any like logical
Lex Fridman (1:41:09.480)
rational mind, you should never want children, right? Why would you do that to yourself?
Yeonmi Park (1:41:15.480)
Especially as a woman, right? You don't want to do that to yourself. But think about like
Yeonmi Park (1:41:21.480)
we are sitting here today, two of us in this amazing technology, this country, because
Yeonmi Park (1:41:26.480)
somebody in Savannah hundreds of thousands of years ago, they're hunting berries and
Yeonmi Park (1:41:31.480)
surviving cold. Every suffering they can imagine, they fall for us. That's why we ended up here.
Lex Fridman (1:41:38.480)
So life is ultimately bigger than us. And I think that's what I want them. It's not
Yeonmi Park (1:41:45.480)
like I want them to do the right thing and be the best version of themselves. It's like,
Yeonmi Park (1:41:50.480)
I want them to feel grateful. And we should be grateful for the freedom and then take
Yeonmi Park (1:41:55.480)
full advantage of that. I mean, it starts with the freedom to experience everything
Yeonmi Park (1:42:00.480)
in life. And for your life, literally, like how my father, like, you know, working, dying
Yeonmi Park (1:42:08.480)
is a lot easier than living. Dying takes like few minutes, right? Maximum. And living takes
Yeonmi Park (1:42:16.480)
forever. So when I was facing this unbelievable challenge, I thought, okay, this most rational
Yeonmi Park (1:42:22.480)
thing I can do is killing myself right now. But the hardest thing I can choose is choose
Yeonmi Park (1:42:27.480)
to live. And my father did that. Even in the concentration camp, even no matter why he
Yeonmi Park (1:42:33.480)
said, life is a gift. You need to fight for it. And I think that's what's missing here,
Yeonmi Park (1:42:40.480)
that we don't think life as a gift. It's a gift. Like, how many people had to fight
Yeonmi Park (1:42:46.480)
for me to be here today? Think about the sacrifice they made for many, many, many generations.
Yeonmi Park (1:42:52.480)
I don't even know what they went through. I can't even fathom what they went through.
Yeonmi Park (1:42:56.480)
They fought for life. Yeah. And that is my responsibility enough. So it doesn't make
Yeonmi Park (1:43:02.480)
them, their fight was not meaningless, right? It meant something because now I'm carrying
Yeonmi Park (1:43:08.480)
on that fight. You mentioned considering suicide. Do you think about your mortality now? Now
Yeonmi Park (1:43:18.480)
that you're perhaps in a slightly more comfortable place, do you still think about death? I do
Yeonmi Park (1:43:27.480)
because I was informed actually when I was 21 that I was on the killing list of Kim Jong
Yeonmi Park (1:43:35.480)
Un by South Korean intelligence. And then I had to live with that, right? But now I
Yeonmi Park (1:43:43.480)
actually feel more because, I don't know, you follow Jamal Khashoggi's story, the Saudi
Yeonmi Park (1:43:48.480)
journalist who got chopped off in Turkey embassy, right? His reason why he got killed was he
Yeonmi Park (1:43:54.480)
became very prominent on Twitter. He had a huge voice and Saudis followed him. Now I
Yeonmi Park (1:44:01.480)
became very first North Korean to have this many social media followings. And recently
Yeonmi Park (1:44:07.480)
North Korea started an investigation team to analyze whatever I do, even though it's
Yeonmi Park (1:44:13.480)
first time for them. So they don't even know what to do at this point. They're like, this
Yeonmi Park (1:44:18.480)
is so new. What do we do? We do Kim Jong Nam. Kim Jong Nam, the half brother of Kim
Yeonmi Park (1:44:24.480)
Jong Un got killed in Malaysia. That is another tragedy that I feel so sorry for the US government
Yeonmi Park (1:44:30.480)
is that Kim Jong Nam was giving information to the CIA for the past like 10 years. That
Yeonmi Park (1:44:36.480)
trip, when he got killed in Malaysian airport, he was meeting up with the CIA agent for two
Yeonmi Park (1:44:41.480)
days on the Northern Ireland. CIA could have protected him. They didn't. They let him die.
Lex Fridman (1:44:49.480)
Who killed him?
Yeonmi Park (1:44:50.480)
North Korean Kim Jong Un killed him. Do you know the Malaysian, the ladies, the VX, the
Yeonmi Park (1:44:55.480)
nerve agent. North Koreans killed him in Malaysian airport, in the international land. So I mean
Yeonmi Park (1:45:02.480)
North Korea, who was a US resident and the Washington Post journalist, when he got killed
Yeonmi Park (1:45:07.480)
in Saudi like a lamb, they chopped him into pieces. In that most inhumane death, what
Yeonmi Park (1:45:13.480)
was the consequences for the Saudis? Nothing. The word is we think we live in a country
Yeonmi Park (1:45:20.480)
where there's no justice. There is no accountability for killing any dissent, no matter how big
Yeonmi Park (1:45:26.480)
their names are.
Lex Fridman (1:45:27.480)
So you don't think your vast and quickly growing social media presence protects you?
Yeonmi Park (1:45:34.480)
No, it does the opposite. Because Kim Jong Un, initially when I spoke out, I don't know
Yeonmi Park (1:45:39.480)
if you went through it, they did everything they could to character assassinate me, saying
Yeonmi Park (1:45:44.480)
I'm a liar, I'm a CIA spy, I get paid. And then they reached out to Penguin saying,
Yeonmi Park (1:45:50.480)
we're going to blow up. You cannot write this book. And they did it with Sony. They
Yeonmi Park (1:45:54.480)
had a Sony studio for making that stupid movie interview. And then Penguin did their
Yeonmi Park (1:46:00.480)
investigation. They met every survivor that I went through in the desert. They got the
Yeonmi Park (1:46:05.480)
voice recordings of them because they don't want them to change their mind later. People
Yeonmi Park (1:46:09.480)
remember differently. So they got the voice recordings, the Penguin Regal team got all
Yeonmi Park (1:46:14.480)
the audios, and now we are ready for the lawsuit. We are going to publish this book because
Yeonmi Park (1:46:18.480)
we checked, verified every single thing that was going in the book. And North Korea couldn't
Yeonmi Park (1:46:23.480)
do anything anymore.
Lex Fridman (1:46:24.480)
But that's character assassination. Which by the way, that's a whole other conversation
Yeonmi Park (1:46:29.480)
that you were able to survive that. I appreciate the kind of strength it requires to survive
Yeonmi Park (1:46:33.480)
that because you don't know. And your character being assassinated is in some ways can be
Yeonmi Park (1:46:39.480)
as painful as actual assassination.
Yeonmi Park (1:46:42.480)
It's worse. It's worse. Everybody think you're a liar. Everybody think you're a liar. And
Yeonmi Park (1:46:48.480)
now everybody, like you said, this nature of internet is that as long as something is
Yeonmi Park (1:46:53.480)
written in the internet, they think that's a fact. Any stupid person can start a blog
Lex Fridman (1:46:57.480)
and write about you. But they think, oh, because it's written on the internet, it's legit.
Yeonmi Park (1:47:02.480)
Especially negative stuff. That's the thing I was kind of trying to elaborate on. There's
Yeonmi Park (1:47:07.480)
a viral aspect to calling somebody a fraud or a liar that nobody questions whether it's
Yeonmi Park (1:47:13.480)
true or not. It just spreads. And it's a dark side of our human nature that we want to destroy
Yeonmi Park (1:47:21.480)
the people who are rising.
Yeonmi Park (1:47:23.480)
We cannot stand it. Any change maker in this world who wasn't controversial, right? Martin
Yeonmi Park (1:47:29.480)
Luther King Jr., Nelson Mandela, he was called as a terrorist. So I just did not know.
Lex Fridman (1:47:37.480)
The character assassination is the thing. It'll probably continue with you.
Yeonmi Park (1:47:41.480)
It will continue with me forever.
Lex Fridman (1:47:43.480)
So you have to get stronger and stronger, I think, in the face of that. But actual assassination,
Yeonmi Park (1:47:48.480)
perhaps it's me being hopeful because I have a situation with Russia that I hope I'm not
Yeonmi Park (1:47:54.480)
under. Well, I don't care actually. But there's some aspect in which social media presence,
Yeonmi Park (1:48:00.480)
I thought, protects you a little bit. Because just imagine the outrage from an attempted
Lex Fridman (1:48:08.480)
assassination of you.
Lex Fridman (1:48:10.480)
But what was the outrage when Jamal Khashoggi got killed like that?
Lex Fridman (1:48:14.480)
Was the social media presence large?
Yeonmi Park (1:48:17.480)
Over one million people. I don't have that following. He was 1.6 million Twitter followers.
Lex Fridman (1:48:23.480)
And the outrage wasn't there?
Yeonmi Park (1:48:25.480)
No. Because Saudis spoke to Amazon, to Prime Studio, Netflix. There were people who made
Yeonmi Park (1:48:31.480)
a documentary about him but told everybody cannot get that deal. So there was a huge
Yeonmi Park (1:48:37.480)
censorship on that. And people, of course, I mean, they can talk about it one day. Some
Lex Fridman (1:48:42.480)
dissent from Saudi got killed. Horrible.
Lex Fridman (1:48:45.480)
But it just dissipates.
Yeonmi Park (1:48:47.480)
They move on to the next cute puppy, right? The next cute cat. That's what the nature
Yeonmi Park (1:48:51.480)
of this new generation does. They desensitize. It doesn't affect them. They keep following
Yeonmi Park (1:48:57.480)
the instant pleasure, instant high. That's what Instagram does to you. It changes your
Yeonmi Park (1:49:02.480)
brain. That's what I was reading. We spoke about shallows. We became shallow and shallow
Lex Fridman (1:49:07.480)
and our brain changed permanently. So this new generation, we can get them angry for
Yeonmi Park (1:49:12.480)
like 10 minutes, create hashtags for one day. But then as quick as that was, it goes down
Lex Fridman (1:49:18.480)
like instantly. And I think that's the...
Yeonmi Park (1:49:22.480)
Well, that means that... Okay. So that means that there is... It's an effective way to
Yeonmi Park (1:49:27.480)
get rid of opposition is by murdering them. And that means United States, if it stands
Yeonmi Park (1:49:33.480)
for freedom, if it stands for the freedom of exchange of ideas, should be protecting
Lex Fridman (1:49:38.480)
people like you.
Lex Fridman (1:49:39.480)
But they don't because they don't want to be involved. They didn't even protect Kim
Yeonmi Park (1:49:45.480)
Jong Nam who was giving information 10 years risking his life. That's what is so... I
Yeonmi Park (1:49:50.480)
mean, working for CIA is not bad. The thing is that he was giving information to bring
Yeonmi Park (1:49:58.480)
down the regime. That is valuable. That is something noble about him. But then you just
Yeonmi Park (1:50:04.480)
don't go extra miles to that. That's when I lost my faith in the US system as well.
Yeonmi Park (1:50:09.480)
Like this country just cares about saving face. What is most the minimum cost they pay
Yeonmi Park (1:50:15.480)
for anything? And when I was in South Korea, constantly, every single day intelligence
Yeonmi Park (1:50:21.480)
calling me. The North Korean agent going this place, where are you going? The US system
Yeonmi Park (1:50:26.480)
came to US, nobody. That's when people said, are you a CIA agent? I wish they called me.
Yeonmi Park (1:50:32.480)
I wish they called me. I really truly do. But nobody, nobody does here. I'm sure they
Yeonmi Park (1:50:38.480)
know what's going on. But the South Korean agent is more like, oh my gosh, we don't want
Yeonmi Park (1:50:43.480)
you to get killed as a South Korean citizen, right? Yeah. And now I'm trying to become
Yeonmi Park (1:50:47.480)
your citizen. So it's in a way, it's, I don't know what's worse. Are you afraid for your
Yeonmi Park (1:50:54.480)
life? I was afraid. For the several, three, four years, I was afraid. But I had to come
Yeonmi Park (1:51:03.480)
to terms with it. Like my enemy is not some crazy psychopath. It's a state with nuclear
Yeonmi Park (1:51:09.480)
power to attack the most powerful country. If Kim Jong Un decides if I die, I'm going
Yeonmi Park (1:51:15.480)
to die. It's not up to me, right? So in a way, also it's liberating that you, it's like
Yeonmi Park (1:51:22.480)
if you are like afraid of some mobs or some like gangsters on the street, it's almost
Yeonmi Park (1:51:27.480)
like you have power over a little bit. You got to be like thinking that's my fault. I
Yeonmi Park (1:51:32.480)
went that way, right? But when it comes to Kim Jong Un, I know like my enemy is so much
Yeonmi Park (1:51:37.480)
bigger than me. It's in a ways of liberation. And also, you know, I just, I live a lot.
Lex Fridman (1:51:44.480)
So I have seen a lot. I seen everything. I don't have that much regret left here. Like,
Yeonmi Park (1:51:49.480)
okay, I'm going too soon. You know, it's like, okay, maybe it's time. Like death is a part
Yeonmi Park (1:51:54.480)
of life. So. In some sense, you're willing to accept death to keep fighting for freedom
Yeonmi Park (1:52:02.480)
in your, in at least in part a place you call home. Yeah, it is. Do you hope that one day
Yeonmi Park (1:52:09.480)
you can return to North Korea? I hope so. I hope I bring my son and tell him this is
Yeonmi Park (1:52:15.480)
like where your ancestors from too. It would look very different than the place you came
Yeonmi Park (1:52:21.980)
from in your, as you hope. Do you hope that there's a democracy one day that North Korea
Yeonmi Park (1:52:32.480)
looks like South Korea? Well, that would be in paradise, right? But I'm a rational optimist.
Yeonmi Park (1:52:42.980)
I'm not like just optimistic because I have to be. I think as long as there are people
Yeonmi Park (1:52:48.880)
who have changed the world, right? Like who believed in something and worked for it. And
Yeonmi Park (1:52:54.980)
like, I don't know, like there's like Alice Shroves, a few people holding entire this
Yeonmi Park (1:52:59.280)
world, right? I really believe in that. I think as long as that continues, that can
Yeonmi Park (1:53:06.080)
happen in my country. As long as people like you someday want to decide to do something
Yeonmi Park (1:53:11.280)
with North Korea and working for it, using your brainpower to solve this puzzle, how
Yeonmi Park (1:53:15.680)
fascinating would that be? That's why I continue to speak, continue to recruit. To inspire
Yeonmi Park (1:53:21.680)
millions to do something. The books you like are all the books I love. I have to mention
Yeonmi Park (1:53:29.980)
this. You mentioned briefly on the, with Jordan, Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse is an incredible
Yeonmi Park (1:53:37.780)
book. I mean, I don't know exactly what I want to ask here, but there's some, I think
Yeonmi Park (1:53:43.580)
the book kind of, through telling a story, reveals that life is suffering and yet there's
Yeonmi Park (1:53:52.980)
beauty in it. The beauty in every moment that uses kind of a river to paint a metaphor.
Yeonmi Park (1:53:59.380)
Is there something that you could say, speak to like how that book impacted your life and
Yeonmi Park (1:54:07.080)
the way you live life, maybe the way you see life, whether it's on the life of suffering
Lex Fridman (1:54:11.980)
side or that life is beautiful side.
Yeonmi Park (1:54:14.580)
I mean, he goes the entire journey, right? He goes in this state of, I'm so enlightened
Yeonmi Park (1:54:20.180)
that I cannot deal with the people who are there in love and quiet about it. Right? They're
Yeonmi Park (1:54:25.080)
like, that's so like primitive. Once he has his own son, he actually being attached. He
Yeonmi Park (1:54:33.380)
actually cares. He actually really does whole thing, right? That's a thing that he used
Yeonmi Park (1:54:37.980)
to think not. Once his son comes find him, he looks at life differently. I think that's
Yeonmi Park (1:54:44.180)
the thing. I did have that kind of journey where, oh, nothing matters, right? So bitter.
Lex Fridman (1:54:49.780)
So so like, so cynical. And after I met so many incredible people, I was talking about
Yeonmi Park (1:54:58.580)
that person who told me he was gay. He told me, I love you. And I was like, why do you
Yeonmi Park (1:55:05.180)
love me? In the past, people when they wanted me was because they want to rape me. Everybody
Yeonmi Park (1:55:10.680)
wanted something from me. That's why they wanted me. And I never understood. You can
Yeonmi Park (1:55:15.680)
love somebody unconditionally. And this gay guy, the last one was want to sleep with me,
Yeonmi Park (1:55:20.980)
right? And he loves me. And I think I had a blessing after my journey, meeting people
Yeonmi Park (1:55:26.780)
who loved me unconditionally because I was just being a human. And I think that's what
Yeonmi Park (1:55:32.380)
it is now for me that like him. I live for love now. I live for love. Any kinds of love.
Yeonmi Park (1:55:39.580)
Love for knowledge. I like, I read so many books because I love books, right? I love
Lex Fridman (1:55:45.180)
what I do. I love my people. I love humanity. You know, even it sometimes annoys me. I love
Yeonmi Park (1:55:52.380)
myself.
Lex Fridman (1:55:53.380)
And that's beautiful too. The annoying parts are beautiful too. What do you, let me ask
Yeonmi Park (1:55:56.580)
the ridiculous question. What do you think is the meaning of this whole thing? Of what's
Lex Fridman (1:56:01.180)
the meaning of life?
Yeonmi Park (1:56:02.980)
Well, I think at this point I stop questioning why I'm here, right? Like it doesn't matter
Yeonmi Park (1:56:10.380)
someone put the atom there or a big bang. I'm here. That's truth, right? I'm going to
Yeonmi Park (1:56:15.180)
accept that fully. So what, instead of me keep asking the impossible question, why I'm
Yeonmi Park (1:56:19.780)
here. I'm going to let you do that. Let the science do that, right? You guys go out in
Yeonmi Park (1:56:24.180)
the space and look for the evidence. I'm conducting.
Yeonmi Park (1:56:28.220)
You accept that you're here and you're just going to enjoy it. Like you're here for love,
Yeonmi Park (1:56:33.780)
as you said.
Yeonmi Park (1:56:34.780)
That's the thing. I think I'm here for the process of pursuing something bigger than
Yeonmi Park (1:56:40.580)
me. Process of doing something. It's not like a model. It's not a virtue signal or anything.
Yeonmi Park (1:56:47.180)
It just makes me happy that I fight for something bigger. Like than me, right? How boring is
Yeonmi Park (1:56:52.980)
that? Every day you get up like, Oh my God, I'm going to buy myself this. I'm going to
Yeonmi Park (1:56:56.820)
get this for myself. It's so boring, isn't it? So in a way, I think that's what it is.
Yeonmi Park (1:57:03.100)
I'm grateful that I'm in a state. I don't have to fight for myself anymore. But morning
Yeonmi Park (1:57:09.100)
people have to do that. And that's sometimes more than enough they have to do. And I salute
Yeonmi Park (1:57:13.660)
them. They are doing fighting, saving themselves every day. But now I'm not there. I'm very
Lex Fridman (1:57:19.780)
blessed. That's why I'm very grateful.
Yeonmi Park (1:57:22.540)
Still fighting for something much bigger than you. But do you still believe that you can
Yeonmi Park (1:57:27.860)
change the world? That you can be a thing that, at least in part, helps North Korea
Lex Fridman (1:57:37.580)
or even broader helps alleviate some suffering in the world?
Lex Fridman (1:57:41.300)
So that's the thing. I was reading this book before by randomness, right?
Yeonmi Park (1:57:45.940)
Yeah.
Yeonmi Park (1:57:46.940)
I was like, oh my God, you're so courageous. You're amazing. I was like, no, I'm not. I'm
Yeonmi Park (1:57:52.900)
horrible. I know myself. You don't want to tell me that. It's random why I ended up here.
Yeonmi Park (1:57:58.180)
Like, why did I pick up English so quickly? Why do I love books? Right? I don't know why.
Yeonmi Park (1:58:02.980)
It's random.
Lex Fridman (1:58:03.980)
Don't ask why. Just enjoy it.
Yeonmi Park (1:58:05.780)
Yeah, it's just random. I think I don't know how the history will remember me. I think
Yeonmi Park (1:58:13.260)
only thing I have to at this point to make sure is that the people after I consulting
Yeonmi Park (1:58:17.860)
a lot of security teams, like now North Korea became a lot smarter. Like you said, they
Yeonmi Park (1:58:22.500)
make it more disguised as a, like a suicide and a car accident. So when I die, they don't
Yeonmi Park (1:58:28.300)
even know I got killed. I think that's a higher chance. So I think that's a thing like people
Yeonmi Park (1:58:35.500)
are suffering, take it or not, it's your choice. And at least it's my responsibility for them
Yeonmi Park (1:58:40.700)
to know what's going on. I think if you did not know and didn't do anything, you're not
Yeonmi Park (1:58:44.740)
even guilty of a thing. But once you know, then you are not doing it. Then you, something's
Yeonmi Park (1:58:51.020)
like not right. So that's what I'm doing. Like I want people to know. And then what
Yeonmi Park (1:58:58.180)
they want to do is not my problem afterwards. Right? So my role is very small in that regards.
Lex Fridman (1:59:05.660)
And I just hope that we're humanized North Koreans for the first time, because we have
Yeonmi Park (1:59:12.940)
been so dehumanized, right? Like we are like looking like robots. If you look at us marching
Lex Fridman (1:59:18.940)
and cry, like when your leader dies, almost seems like we don't even have the same emotions.
Yeonmi Park (1:59:24.800)
People cannot connect us in the same level. And I think that's something is, that's something
Yeonmi Park (1:59:33.540)
media have done it to us.
Lex Fridman (1:59:36.100)
And you're, you're shining a small light on this dark part of the world that I think,
Lex Fridman (1:59:43.060)
and you make it, you're so modest, but I think, I think you will have that little light just
Yeonmi Park (1:59:50.500)
might be a big thing that changes that incredible amount of suffering that's happening on that
Yeonmi Park (1:59:58.200)
part of the world. You know what I mean? You're, you're an amazing person. I'm so fortunate
Yeonmi Park (20:01.480)
When to not trust and when to run. But I think most of us keep learning what it means to
Yeonmi Park (20:08.480)
be a human being. I think that was like the ultimate thing I was keep learning. And I
Yeonmi Park (20:13.480)
still don't know fully what it means. But I do think it seems like suffering is necessary
Yeonmi Park (20:19.480)
for people to be grateful and even be joyful too sometimes.
Lex Fridman (20:25.480)
So I talk about love quite a bit. And you mentioned that romantic love. I'm fascinated
Yeonmi Park (20:31.480)
about love in many aspects. But you mentioned romantic love was forbidden in North Korea.
Lex Fridman (20:41.480)
What do you think about love now that you've kind of discovered it? What's the role of
Lex Fridman (20:47.480)
love in life? So why do you think it was forbidden in North Korea?
Lex Fridman (20:53.480)
So the tragic thing about North Korea is not only just banning Shakespeare, like we don't
Yeonmi Park (20:58.480)
even know what Romeo and Juliet is, right? Our movies is never about love stories. But
Yeonmi Park (21:03.480)
then also they banned the love between mother and daughter, wife and husband, and between
Yeonmi Park (21:11.480)
your friends. They deny you being a human. So only love that I knew was when I described
Yeonmi Park (21:17.480)
my feeling towards the leader and in a written form. That was the only love that people know
Yeonmi Park (21:23.480)
in North Korea. And now I'm like, there are many loves you can experience. I think you
Yeonmi Park (21:29.480)
definitely love science, right? But imagine that if you're being denied that. So there
Yeonmi Park (21:35.480)
are so many loves in life. But in North Korea, all of those things are denied. And I think
Yeonmi Park (21:41.480)
for me, love is what makes you tick. Like, you know, love for your child, love for your
Yeonmi Park (21:48.480)
parents, love for your friends, love for even yourself. That is denied. So I mean, many
Yeonmi Park (21:55.480)
people say like, love is an option. But like, then why do you live? I think we live to love.
Lex Fridman (22:00.480)
And it doesn't have to be romantic love. It can be anything. But finding love in any person
Yeonmi Park (22:06.480)
or in any subject, I think that's a goal. I think that's when people find meaning in
Yeonmi Park (22:11.480)
something.
Yeonmi Park (22:12.480)
Yeah, I think romantic love is just one sort of, one echo of some core thing. Yeah, science,
Yeonmi Park (22:19.480)
I love science, I love robots, all of those things. And it sounds like deliberately or
Yeonmi Park (22:25.480)
not, the North Korean regime wants to channel that very deep aspect of the human spirit
Yeonmi Park (22:33.480)
all towards the leader.
Yeonmi Park (22:35.480)
Yeah, that's it. That's the only thing they allow us to fear and know about. So I remember,
Yeonmi Park (22:42.480)
I mean, you read 1984 by George Orwell, it talks about double think and double speak,
Yeonmi Park (22:48.480)
who controls the language, who controls thoughts. And why he does talk about as they go, they
Yeonmi Park (22:54.480)
eliminate a lot of words, right? Now, later one word can represent 10 different things.
Lex Fridman (23:00.480)
And what fascinates me is how many vocabulary meaning people can have. And when I literally
Yeonmi Park (23:08.480)
came out, I remember I went to San Francisco, and someone came to me and hugged me. And
Lex Fridman (23:14.480)
then he was a guy like, oh, baby, don't worry, I'm gay. I was like, what the heck is gay?
Lex Fridman (23:19.480)
And then I literally had to go to a hotel room and Google the gay. And it's like, oh,
Yeonmi Park (23:24.480)
that's what you meant. And like that, like, they deny what that is. I'm sure there are
Yeonmi Park (23:30.480)
gays in North Korea. I'm sure there is. But you don't know what it is. And like that,
Yeonmi Park (23:36.480)
they eliminate words. So the fact that you know the concept, that stays much better than
Lex Fridman (23:42.480)
and that's the thing a lot of people like when you're born, you somehow know what justice
Yeonmi Park (23:46.480)
is, what liberty is. And it's all somebody taught you that. And like, that's the thing
Lex Fridman (23:52.480)
why people say, oh, humans are inherently know what is right, what is wrong, what is
Lex Fridman (23:57.480)
oppression. And like, no, that's like BS. You got to learn.
Yeonmi Park (24:02.480)
That's fascinating that words give rise to ideas. So like, as a child, one of the ways
Yeonmi Park (24:10.480)
to learn about justice and freedom is to first learn the word, and then to ask, well, what
Yeonmi Park (24:15.480)
is it? Yeah, the concept. Yeah. And if you don't have the word for it, then you never
Yeonmi Park (24:20.480)
have the kind of first spark that leads to you trying to be curious about it. That's
Yeonmi Park (24:25.480)
interesting and controlling the words. And then, yeah, I mean, your thoughts, you control
Yeonmi Park (24:30.480)
the thoughts. There's so many echoes. I mean, I have, it's a very different, but perhaps
Yeonmi Park (24:37.480)
a very similar experience, which is the journey of my family through the Soviet Union. Because
Yeonmi Park (24:44.480)
there is a love of country. There is a pride of the people. Like you are proud of your
Yeonmi Park (24:49.480)
family in general. But I wonder how much of that is polluted by the propaganda.
Yeonmi Park (24:57.480)
I think a lot. For sure. Yeah. It is to this day, I'm like, my father who died in China
Lex Fridman (25:06.480)
and he was tortured and then he died. He wanted to go back before his death, right? And then
Yeonmi Park (25:13.480)
it's like, dad, if you go back, you're going to be executed. And it's like, I want to be
Yeonmi Park (25:18.480)
executed. He wanted to go back to North Korea. To be executed. So he can be buried in his
Yeonmi Park (25:24.480)
own land. And then his last wish was, if I die, criminate me and then bring my ashes
Yeonmi Park (25:32.480)
back to my country. When I'm dead, I still want to be in my country. And this is nationalism.
Yeonmi Park (25:38.480)
This is a propaganda, right? But now it's the same thing. It's the same thing. If I
Yeonmi Park (25:45.480)
die, I somehow buried in my land and I still feel like I'm the outsider. I'm always longing
Yeonmi Park (25:52.480)
for my home. It's a horrible home. People say, what's your dream? Do you want to be
Yeonmi Park (25:57.480)
a president? Do you want to run for office? I just want to go home. That's my dream.
Lex Fridman (26:02.480)
And people here don't get it ever. I don't know what to do with that. I love my country.
Lex Fridman (26:10.480)
And I think for me, my country is the United States. And perhaps it will be for you too
Yeonmi Park (26:16.480)
one day. It is. I think it's becoming. US has been a very special place in my heart.
Yeonmi Park (26:21.480)
I think this is the first place I felt like I feel like home. And I mean, I was in South
Yeonmi Park (26:28.480)
Korea longer and I didn't feel that way. So I think we have very different life stories,
Lex Fridman (26:33.480)
but I think it's almost two different people. For me, it's the person that was in the Soviet
Yeonmi Park (26:38.480)
Union and the person that's here. Those are two different people. That previous person's
Yeonmi Park (26:44.480)
home in the Soviet Union and he's part of me. And I suppose in that same way, your first
Yeonmi Park (26:53.480)
maybe two decades of life are somehow longing for the home that is North Korea. And your
Yeonmi Park (27:00.480)
next two decades of life might be finding a home in the United States. Your dad, can
Yeonmi Park (27:08.480)
you tell the story of his struggle, of his death? I mean, first, do you miss him? Do
Yeonmi Park (27:19.480)
you think about it? Oh man, all the time. I had a son when I was 22 and I had IVF three
Yeonmi Park (27:27.480)
times. And as you see, I'm like 80 pounds, but back then I was like 75 pounds. And because
Yeonmi Park (27:33.480)
of my severe malnutrition, somehow my body's very different. And so after three times of
Yeonmi Park (27:42.480)
IVF after 23, I was still wanting family. And the reason I wanted him is because I felt
Lex Fridman (27:49.480)
so guilty for my father that he never seen this world. I somehow, when you're so desperate,
Yeonmi Park (27:56.480)
you become illogical. Like I want to believe in the, like Buddhist idea, right? You come
Yeonmi Park (28:02.480)
back to life. And I prayed, please come to me, like as my son, so I will take care of
Yeonmi Park (28:08.480)
you. Like come back. And when I was pregnant with my son, even though I planned to get
Yeonmi Park (28:14.480)
pregnant with a girl, doctor made a mistake. It became a boy. So I made his middle name,
Yeonmi Park (28:21.480)
like my father's name Jin Sik. I think he's the only American got North Korean name. It
Yeonmi Park (28:29.480)
is. So he's a part of your father's and your son. Yeah. That's how I, that's how I make
Yeonmi Park (28:37.480)
a sense of it. And that's how I move forward. Like if I, like as a logical human being,
Yeonmi Park (28:44.480)
you, you know, when you're dead, you're done. Maybe that's what I at least used to think,
Lex Fridman (28:48.480)
but then life's become too unbearable. And somehow that's the thing, like we tell ourselves
Yeonmi Park (28:54.480)
stories in order to live. And that's how I came with my title of the book in order to
Yeonmi Park (28:58.480)
live. I had to tell myself a lot of stories to overcome a lot of things. I think I was
Yeonmi Park (29:04.480)
a part of it. Can you tell the story of you escaping North Korea to China? Yeah, I think
Yeonmi Park (29:15.480)
it's, it's a thing. It's amazing. Even though I was like 13, my like life outside of North
Yeonmi Park (29:26.480)
Korea is almost like went by like one second and my life till that point was like eternity.
Yeonmi Park (29:32.480)
I remember being in China. I arrived there at the end of March at 13. And by October,
Yeonmi Park (29:40.480)
it was six months past. And I literally felt like I lived eternity. And one day living
Yeonmi Park (29:49.480)
in China felt like living one year. One day was a war like surviving through one day was
Lex Fridman (29:56.480)
so hard. Every night I was like, I cannot believe I got done one day today. That was
Yeonmi Park (2:00:03.980)
to get a chance to talk with you. I can't wait what you do in the future. You're, I
Yeonmi Park (2:00:08.060)
hope you write many more books. I do hope you continue making videos, continue having
Yeonmi Park (2:00:13.860)
conversations. You're an inspiration to me and millions of others. I really appreciate
Yeonmi Park (2:00:18.580)
you talking with me today.
Lex Fridman (2:00:19.580)
I'm so honored. Thank you.
Yeonmi Park (2:00:22.460)
Thank you. Thank you for listening to this conversation with Yeonmi Park. And thank you
Yeonmi Park (2:00:26.820)
to Belcampo, Gala Games, BetterHelp, and 8th Sleep. Check them out in the description to
Yeonmi Park (2:00:33.460)
support this podcast. And now let me leave you with some words from Bob Marley. Better
Yeonmi Park (2:00:38.940)
to die fighting for freedom than be a prisoner all the days of your life. Thank you for listening
Lex Fridman (2:00:45.640)
and hope to see you next time.
Yeonmi Park (30:02.480)
a thing I was grateful for before I went to bed. Okay, I survived. I didn't get captured.
Lex Fridman (30:08.480)
And I made it another day on earth. So the experience of the minutes is what fear, fear
Yeonmi Park (30:16.480)
of being captured, fear, loss, everything. Because I mean, I saw my own mom in China
Yeonmi Park (30:26.480)
to survive to. So it was more than that. And it's not feeling I think that's a thing in
Yeonmi Park (30:35.480)
China. I learned not to fear. And after my escape was a challenging, I didn't feel anything.
Lex Fridman (30:44.480)
And it was hard. Not feeling anything is a torture. It's the biggest torture you can
Yeonmi Park (30:50.480)
ever feel like even you fear sadness. That's better than not feeling anything. And I felt
Yeonmi Park (30:57.480)
something when I had my son. That's when I started healing. So he was a miracle to save
Lex Fridman (31:03.480)
me. But yeah, in China, it wasn't even fear like it was numb.
Yeonmi Park (31:08.480)
You were numb. It was like paralysis. Yeah. Just overwhelming on the uncertainty of your
Lex Fridman (31:15.480)
future. Did you have a sense what your future held at the time?
Yeonmi Park (31:19.480)
Like what do you even even feature? I don't even know that word. Right? Like, a lot of
Yeonmi Park (31:24.480)
times I was looking at myself like I left my body and like just looking at me. And just
Yeonmi Park (31:29.480)
not feeling it. It's not like I'm scared for her. I'm like sad for her just looking at
Yeonmi Park (31:34.480)
me like, huh, that's interesting. Wow. Not feeling anything. And me like being raped,
Yeonmi Park (31:42.480)
going through every emotion of life to survive, right? But like, somehow, I don't know if
Yeonmi Park (31:49.480)
you say so or something like looking at it just like, you feel nothing. You don't feel
Yeonmi Park (31:55.480)
anything for that person. So even with your mom, like what was, was there some, I don't
Yeonmi Park (32:03.480)
know, some warmth that you were able to extract from the connection with your mom? Yeah, of
Yeonmi Park (32:10.480)
course. I think that made me survive. I had a very strong connection with my family. And
Yeonmi Park (32:17.480)
I think that's what kept me going to do all of that. I think, as you said, I escaped at
Yeonmi Park (32:23.480)
13. My sister at the age of 16 escaped with her friend first. And I was going to escape
Yeonmi Park (32:31.480)
with her. But one day I got like really bad stomach ache. And my parents took me to hospital.
Lex Fridman (32:37.480)
And in North Korean hospital, they don't have like X ray machines. They don't even have
Yeonmi Park (32:41.480)
electricity. They literally using one needle to inject everybody. And people don't die
Yeonmi Park (32:47.480)
from cancer in North Korea. You die from infection and fever and hunger, right? So most likely
Yeonmi Park (32:53.480)
you're going to die more by being treated by doctor than not being treated. I think
Yeonmi Park (32:57.480)
I was lucky. Even though they thought I had appendix, they operated on me without any
Yeonmi Park (33:02.480)
painkiller. And I didn't get infection. I survived. So that's how I got delayed to escape
Yeonmi Park (33:09.480)
with my sister. And she left me a note in my bedside saying like, follow this lady.
Lex Fridman (33:16.480)
And this is like another trick about human trafficking, right? She sold me to China as
Yeonmi Park (33:21.480)
a sexual slave. And she executed for it later. She was executed for that later. She had five
Yeonmi Park (33:29.480)
daughters and she sold all her children to China. And we can now sitting here judging
Yeonmi Park (33:35.480)
on like how heartless you are selling your own children to China. And as a sexual slave,
Yeonmi Park (33:41.480)
they were like her children were seven, 10 years old. But that was the only way for her
Yeonmi Park (33:46.480)
to save her children. And if she didn't sell me that day, I would be dead right now. So
Yeonmi Park (33:53.480)
I'm grateful that she sold me. And I think that's the thing is like, life is so crazy.
Yeonmi Park (33:59.480)
You cannot judge. It is so complex. And yeah, that's how she changed my life by selling
Lex Fridman (34:06.480)
me. She sold my mom and myself in 2007 to China.
Lex Fridman (34:10.480)
So you're grateful for that. You're grateful for that suffering.
Lex Fridman (34:14.480)
Of course I am grateful.
Yeonmi Park (34:16.480)
Because the alternative is worse.
Lex Fridman (34:18.480)
I would not be here with you. You would never knew I existed.
Lex Fridman (34:24.480)
What do you make of the others suffering in the world today? The people there in North
Yeonmi Park (34:29.480)
Korea. So that is part of your life's work is helping those people. What do you think
Lex Fridman (34:39.480)
about them? What should people know about them?
Lex Fridman (34:42.480)
I think that's when I get angry. Whenever I think about them.
Lex Fridman (34:46.480)
Who's your anger directed at?
Yeonmi Park (34:48.480)
At the heartlessness of people, the ignorance of people. So when I got out of North Korea,
Yeonmi Park (35:00.480)
I went through all of that. And I went to South Korea one day. I was watching television
Lex Fridman (35:07.480)
and there's like famous Korean Kpop stars crying and doing some fundraising concert.
Lex Fridman (35:15.480)
And I literally thought, oh my God, something is horribly going wrong in this country. Why
Yeonmi Park (35:19.480)
are these people crying? It was a cheery campaign. And then later it was showing that it was
Yeonmi Park (35:26.480)
an animal rights campaign to helping out cats and puppies in the shelters.
Lex Fridman (35:33.480)
Do you know anybody sheds their tears like that to another human being right now? No,
Yeonmi Park (35:39.480)
right? People rather give millions of dollars to save some dolphins than saving these children
Yeonmi Park (35:44.480)
right now being raped in China. And I think I love Elon Musk. I love his voice. I love
Yeonmi Park (35:52.480)
these people want to go to the moon, Mars. And then people told him like, yeah, we went
Lex Fridman (35:57.480)
to the moon like I did not know in North Korea.
Lex Fridman (36:01.480)
But I think that's what upsets me. Why there is not even one single human with that kind
Yeonmi Park (36:06.480)
of brilliance in their brain. They can save so much suffering, but nobody does anything.
Yeonmi Park (36:13.480)
I think that's when I feel like hard to find hope in humanity. And that's when I get so
Yeonmi Park (36:20.480)
upset. Because think about like even Biden or Trump or Obama. They know what's happening
Yeonmi Park (36:26.480)
in North Korea exactly, right? I mean, we see satellite photos. There's public executions.
Yeonmi Park (36:31.480)
I mean, the UN says this is a Holocaust happening again. And it's happening. If the Holocaust
Yeonmi Park (36:37.480)
is happening again, how, why, how are you okay doing nothing about it? But somehow humans
Yeonmi Park (36:43.480)
are able to okay nothing, anything. And this is like, this is hard. Like when people say
Yeonmi Park (36:51.480)
I'm going to change the world. I want to make a difference. Like it's hard to believe it,
Lex Fridman (36:56.480)
you know?
Yeonmi Park (36:57.480)
Yeah, that we can turn our back to human suffering at scale when it's right in front of us. I
Yeonmi Park (37:02.480)
mean, that makes you think about the Holocaust. This is just, everybody was looking the other
Yeonmi Park (37:08.480)
way because it was almost too hard to look at it.
Yeonmi Park (37:12.480)
No, it's not. It's an easier thing. Like that's the thing. I was like here to speak at the
Yeonmi Park (37:17.480)
South by Southwest a few years ago. And like they're, everybody's talking about like Elon
Yeonmi Park (37:21.480)
Musk project going to the moon, right? We're going to be multi, like species. I was like
Yeonmi Park (37:26.480)
back then I didn't even know who he was. So if you guys are trying to go out to this earth,
Yeonmi Park (37:32.480)
you haven't even explored our earth yet. You cannot go to North Korea right now. You haven't
Lex Fridman (37:37.480)
explored that part of our, our like planet. Can we do that first and then move on?
Yeonmi Park (37:43.480)
Explore the landscape of human suffering, like alleviate suffering in the world. There's
Yeonmi Park (37:49.480)
a lot of suffering happening in Africa that has to do with disease. And for some reason
Yeonmi Park (37:55.480)
it's, even though we turn our back to that kind of suffering too, we still can try to
Yeonmi Park (38:01.480)
do something about it. And there's still efforts in terms of healthcare, in terms of medicine,
Yeonmi Park (38:08.480)
in terms of bioengineering, in terms of like all these efforts to help people from disease.
Lex Fridman (38:13.480)
But like, that's almost like converting it into an engineering problem and trying to
Yeonmi Park (38:17.480)
solve it. That somehow is easier for us humans. But when there's obvious sort of non disease
Yeonmi Park (38:24.480)
related torture of humans, we look the other way. Whether it's China or it's North Korea.
Lex Fridman (38:34.480)
Yeah. I mean, that has to be changed somehow. We have to change that somehow.
Lex Fridman (38:40.480)
It's the thing right now, like the China, like they bring the Xinjiang riggers, right?
Yeonmi Park (38:45.480)
They say, oh, this is a vitamin, take it. And then it kills their sperm and make them
Yeonmi Park (38:51.480)
not reproduce. Their birth rate gone down something 47 to something 50% in the one year
Yeonmi Park (38:56.480)
time. It's a genocide in 21st century. And they get those people and get their like organs
Yeonmi Park (39:02.480)
out. Imagine if there's some people who do that with the cutie puppies and cats. There's
Yeonmi Park (39:08.480)
going to be insane amount of product. They're going to destroy everything. And this is like
Yeonmi Park (39:14.480)
a human nature that I don't get. Why there's so much anti human sentiment in this modern
Yeonmi Park (39:20.480)
world? We don't have to. The fact that I was saying like, the fact that you care about
Yeonmi Park (39:26.480)
animals rights is beautiful because you care about something who cannot speak for themselves.
Yeonmi Park (39:31.480)
The fact that we care about animals is because they cannot speak for themselves, right? They
Yeonmi Park (39:35.480)
don't have that ability. And there are many people who cannot speak for themselves right
Yeonmi Park (39:40.480)
now. And why do you refuse to be the voice for them? Because they are simply being a
Yeonmi Park (39:45.480)
human. And maybe it connects to us not being proud of who we are. Like, I don't know what
Lex Fridman (39:53.480)
it is. Why do they deny humans this way? Maybe they don't like themselves.
Yeonmi Park (39:59.480)
Yeah, it's almost, we would have to acknowledge some dark things about ourselves in order
Yeonmi Park (40:05.480)
to start helping. What's the solution? So, you know, I see two solutions. One is in the
Yeonmi Park (40:16.480)
military side. It's assassination or the full on invasion. And then on the activism side,
Yeonmi Park (40:28.480)
which is figuring out ways to, like you said, sort of let people in North Korea understand
Yeonmi Park (40:38.480)
their situation, sort of from within try to reform. Or maybe there's others, obviously,
Yeonmi Park (40:44.480)
there could be activism from the outside to build up momentum for the entirety of the
Yeonmi Park (40:50.480)
world, especially the world that is not just the United States or Europe, but also is Russia
Lex Fridman (40:56.480)
and China and so on. What are your ideas here? What we can do as individuals and as countries?
Yeonmi Park (41:05.480)
I think the first thing that we can do is speak about Chinese role in this sponsoring
Yeonmi Park (41:10.480)
dictatorship in North Korea. Like, I happen to have so much struggle talking about North
Yeonmi Park (41:16.480)
Korea, right? They say, how North Korea is possible? Why is it like the way like this
Yeonmi Park (41:21.480)
is 99% accountability going to CCP? Kim Jong Un cannot last without Chinese help even one
Yeonmi Park (41:30.480)
week. This is completely funded. This Holocaust is funded by CCP. But if you talk about in
Yeonmi Park (41:36.480)
the mainstream, of course, they don't buy it. And I think it's in a way North Korea
Yeonmi Park (41:42.480)
is a lot easier to solve than even in the Middle East. There's nothing conflict like
Yeonmi Park (41:47.480)
between people. There's no ideology, no religion, nothing. People are peaceful, right? There's
Yeonmi Park (41:52.480)
not even one civil, like any discontent among the people. Our problem is there's a dictator
Yeonmi Park (41:59.480)
funded by the second economic power in the world. And even any military, they know if
Yeonmi Park (42:05.480)
they kill Kim Jong Un, they're going to get killed by Chinese. Nobody can dare to stand
Yeonmi Park (42:09.480)
up against Kim Jong Un because China is backing it. So somehow here in the West, we collectively
Yeonmi Park (42:16.480)
acknowledging that China is the responsible person for these crimes against humanity in
Lex Fridman (42:21.480)
North Korea. Then we can somehow, I don't know, talk to them.
Yeonmi Park (42:26.480)
Stand up to China.
Lex Fridman (42:27.480)
Exactly.
Yeonmi Park (42:28.480)
We're failing to do that in a way, in all kinds of avenues of life, of public life,
Yeonmi Park (42:35.480)
because for many reasons, they're probably primarily financial. But it also, I'm against,
Yeonmi Park (42:46.480)
I don't know, maybe you can correct me. I'm against sort of making China this evil enemy
Yeonmi Park (42:54.480)
because I've seen this with Russia as well. And I don't think that leads to progress.
Yeonmi Park (43:02.480)
I think you want to highlight, you basically want to help the Chinese people become the
Yeonmi Park (43:10.480)
best version of themselves. So speak to the Chinese people and not making the leaders
Yeonmi Park (43:17.480)
of China into these caricatures of devils. I feel like the Cold War, the way it was done
Yeonmi Park (43:24.480)
in Russia, both sides, they were caricaturing each other through propaganda and the result
Yeonmi Park (43:30.480)
was not productive at all. It did not help Russia become the best country it could be.
Yeonmi Park (43:34.480)
It did not help America become the best country it could be. And the same thing with China.
Yeonmi Park (43:38.480)
I feel like making them into this enemy, like being afraid of China, making them into the
Yeonmi Park (43:45.480)
thing that's going to spy on us, that's going to destroy the rest of the world, that's not
Yeonmi Park (43:49.480)
going to help China reform themselves. They're going to plant their feet. The dictators,
Yeonmi Park (43:55.480)
the evil people will become more evil. The power hungry will become more, like they will
Yeonmi Park (44:01.480)
centralize the power more. It feels like, maybe naive, but it feels like it should be
Yeonmi Park (44:08.480)
like, again, love, not violence that solves this thing. Now, of course, in North Korea,
Yeonmi Park (44:15.480)
it's like long gone. 80 years, almost 80 years. Love is not going to solve that problem.
Lex Fridman (44:23.480)
I mean, I don't, it's very difficult.
Yeonmi Park (44:26.480)
They have tried that because of the sunshine policy, which is there's two people walking
Yeonmi Park (44:32.480)
down the street and the sun and the wind made a battle. So who can take off that man, take
Yeonmi Park (44:37.480)
off jacket? So wind tried to blow as much air as he could. And then that man was like
Yeonmi Park (44:43.480)
putting more like his jacket on, right? Not taking off, but sunshine came. Okay, I'm going
Yeonmi Park (44:47.480)
to give him a lot of warmth. And then he took his jacket out and came out. So that was the
Yeonmi Park (44:51.480)
theory. Let's give North Korea as much love as they want. Let's give them a lot of money,
Yeonmi Park (44:56.480)
whatever they want, let's give to them so they know that we are not here to attack them.
Lex Fridman (45:00.480)
And North Korea, what they did was the guy who did the sunshine policy in South Korea
Yeonmi Park (45:05.480)
named Kim Dae Sung won the Nobel Peace Prize for that. And Kim Jong Il used the money to
Yeonmi Park (45:11.480)
build nuclear weapons. So that's how they came with the nukes. So I think that's the
Yeonmi Park (45:17.480)
thing. I hope that love solves problems.
Lex Fridman (45:20.480)
But there's got to be a way and the hope is with the 21st century is you can directly
Yeonmi Park (45:25.480)
speak to the people somehow. When there's no internet, when there's nothing like that,
Yeonmi Park (45:29.480)
it's hopeless. I think China, there's a hope that China is still connected to the internet.
Yeonmi Park (45:34.480)
I love your optimism. I have seen the actual dark side of China on the underground. I hope,
Lex Fridman (45:43.480)
I think that's the thing. People in the West, right? They say, oh, how can it be that bad?
Yeonmi Park (45:48.480)
They ask me like, I walking passing this young teenager man and later the war with my sister.
Yeonmi Park (45:56.480)
He's like intestine coming out through his back, right? And even in that moment, what
Yeonmi Park (46:03.480)
he wanted was, please give me food. He was hungry.
Lex Fridman (46:06.480)
His intestine is hanging out of his body and he's asking for food.
Lex Fridman (46:11.480)
Do you know what humans demand when they die in North Korea? All they want is eating, right?
Lex Fridman (46:17.480)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (46:18.480)
And people say, oh, nothing can be that bad. But people just here haven't seen an actual
Lex Fridman (46:24.480)
true evil.
Yeonmi Park (46:26.480)
Would you say that the evil comes from a tiny minority of people or is it permeate much
Yeonmi Park (46:31.480)
larger parts of the population? Like if we look at sex trafficking, how many people,
Yeonmi Park (46:40.480)
like is it 99.9% of the people are longing to do good in the world? Or is there, is it,
Yeonmi Park (46:54.480)
or do we all have the capacity for evil in certain kinds of environments, certain kinds
Lex Fridman (46:58.480)
of governmental structures inspire a large percent of the population to do bad things?
Yeonmi Park (47:05.480)
I think humans are capable of anything. There's no exception. I don't think there's any saint
Yeonmi Park (47:11.480)
who born with that morality. I think in North Korea, you can say initially that there's
Yeonmi Park (47:17.480)
few guys in the top wanted the power and then doing this, but eventually made a society
Yeonmi Park (47:24.480)
where people don't even know what compassion is. We don't know the concept of, we don't
Yeonmi Park (47:29.480)
know that you need to feel bad for another human being when they're suffering. The fact
Yeonmi Park (47:33.480)
that you know compassion is in your knowledge. That's why you do that. Humans need to learn.
Yeonmi Park (47:39.480)
It's not anything bad about human nature. It's just saying humans are capable of everything.
Yeonmi Park (47:44.480)
We are the most adaptable species on the planet. That's why we created the internet, like
Yeonmi Park (47:50.480)
talking this way, right? No other animals have done it because we are so adaptable.
Yeonmi Park (47:55.480)
That is a good thing and that's a bad thing. So in the adaptive situation, they all can
Yeonmi Park (48:01.480)
be, I mean during the Holocaust, right? Those people, they could have been capable of good
Yeonmi Park (48:06.480)
too if they were exposed to different system. That's why when people underestimate evil,
Yeonmi Park (48:12.480)
that's what scares me. Evil is evil. It's a different thing. It's a completely different
Yeonmi Park (48:19.480)
thing. Of course, I get your idea. We don't want to isolate 1.3 billion human beings on
Yeonmi Park (48:26.480)
Earth by Chinese, but the thing is we are talking about this regime, not the people.
Yeonmi Park (48:32.480)
I love Chinese people. I speak Chinese. I love all about the country, but this system
Yeonmi Park (48:37.480)
does promote evil. Well, that's an optimistic view actually because we can fix systems.
Yeonmi Park (48:43.480)
Yeah. It's harder to fix people. So if we fix systems, then the people are adaptable,
Yeonmi Park (48:48.480)
as you said. Absolutely. I mean that, and then the question is, first of all, you have
Yeonmi Park (48:53.480)
to talk about it just as you're doing. You're right now like this little flame that burns
Yeonmi Park (48:58.480)
bright, and it's really important for North Korea, but just keep talking about it until
Yeonmi Park (49:07.480)
hopefully it leads to at the highest levels of power, revolutionizing the systems in the
Yeonmi Park (49:13.480)
world. And then in China and in North Korea, do you see North Korea being a potential instigator
Yeonmi Park (49:21.480)
in nuclear war? They will not start a nuclear war as long as they can do whatever they want
Yeonmi Park (49:28.480)
right now, right? North Korea's army is not designed to fight the enemy. They're designed
Yeonmi Park (49:35.480)
to prevent their own people, the coup d'tetre and the revolution with their own citizens.
Yeonmi Park (49:40.480)
That is 1.6 million North Korea with a tiny country, the fourth largest armies in the
Yeonmi Park (49:46.480)
world. So this country is designed to fight with their own citizens. And the army, the
Yeonmi Park (49:54.480)
fourth largest in the world, is designed to basically fight its own people. Oppress their
Yeonmi Park (50:00.480)
own people. That's what North Korean military is about. Okay. Let me ask you some aspects
Yeonmi Park (50:10.480)
about North Korean life. Can you describe the songbun system of ascribed status used
Yeonmi Park (50:16.480)
in North Korea? Yeah. So that's a very interesting thing, right? Right now there are a lot of
Yeonmi Park (50:21.480)
people playing with this ideology of like democratic socialism, socialism, communism,
Yeonmi Park (50:26.480)
whatever you call it, Marxism, Leninism, right? They have all like these similar features
Yeonmi Park (50:31.480)
where we give collective power to a certain entity and they will make the decision for
Yeonmi Park (50:38.480)
bigger good, right? And North Korea came up with the idea, the Kim Il Sung. He was the
Yeonmi Park (50:44.480)
Leninist. He was a Marxist saying, I'm going to create the most equal society on human
Yeonmi Park (50:49.480)
face. So it was communist North Korea. And then they came up with this songbun system.
Yeonmi Park (50:56.480)
It's like family caste system. Three big categories, warrior, wavering, and hostile. And that in
Yeonmi Park (51:04.480)
between three classes, they divide into 50 different classes. So a lot of people don't
Yeonmi Park (51:09.480)
even know which exact class you belong to. That's a secret government document. And that's
Lex Fridman (51:14.480)
how they decide your future. So in a way, North Korea, before you're born, your life
Yeonmi Park (51:20.480)
is determined for you. And this is a joke, right? They dreamed of creating the most equal
Yeonmi Park (51:25.480)
society. They ended up with became most unequal society in the face of humanity. So there
Yeonmi Park (51:31.480)
are 50 different classes and where the one guy on the top became a god. So when this
Yeonmi Park (51:38.480)
animal farm, as we keep saying, like there's so many, all the animals are equal and some
Yeonmi Park (51:42.480)
of the animals are more equal than others. Exactly. But it's not only, it's just more
Yeonmi Park (51:46.480)
equal. One guy in North Korea became a god. So North Korea was born out of a Marxist ideals.
Yeonmi Park (51:54.480)
Yeah. From Stalin. Can you comment on Juche ideology, which seems to be its own kind of
Yeonmi Park (52:06.480)
socialism, but with unique aspects here, it really does ideologically says the importance
Yeonmi Park (52:15.480)
of having a great leader. Is there some interesting similarities or differences that you can comment
Yeonmi Park (52:21.480)
on between other implementations of communism throughout history, the Soviet Union, China,
Yeonmi Park (52:27.480)
elsewhere? So Juche is very unique. It came on around the 90s after Soviet Union collapsed.
Lex Fridman (52:33.480)
So before that, North Korea was very still loyal to the Marxism and Leninism, which is
Yeonmi Park (52:39.480)
state takes care of you. We are going to give you the right education, healthcare, your
Yeonmi Park (52:45.480)
livelihood, everybody is going to be equal. You're going to have in the working collective
Yeonmi Park (52:49.480)
farm, collective worker place. Everybody collectively do things together and let's work for the
Yeonmi Park (52:55.480)
paradise. But 1991, the Soviet Union collapsed. And until then, North Korea was heavily subsidized
Yeonmi Park (53:02.480)
by Soviet Union's aid. And then Soviet Union didn't give them anything. So not 3 million
Yeonmi Park (53:07.480)
people dying on the streets. The regime then came up with the idea, okay, our goal is what
Yeonmi Park (53:13.480)
is successful ruling for us is keeping the 10% of population alive, which is in the capital
Yeonmi Park (53:19.480)
Pyongyang. So they designed the hunger games. There is a capital, 13 other districts, everybody
Yeonmi Park (53:26.480)
on the countryside on purpose being starved. So those people who are starving cannot thinking
Yeonmi Park (53:32.480)
about meaning of life, cannot thinking about shooting to the moon, right? They're not going
Yeonmi Park (53:36.480)
to think about anything or they're going to think it's like finding next meal. All on
Yeonmi Park (53:40.480)
purpose. All on purpose is manmade famine. International community was begging to give
Yeonmi Park (53:45.480)
North Korea food. Why not? Still at the UN, they beg to give North Korea formula, medicine
Lex Fridman (53:52.480)
and food. They are begging, can you please feed your people? And Kim Jong Un said, no,
Yeonmi Park (53:56.480)
thank you. Last year, like when North Korea had a horrible, horrible flooding, South Korean
Yeonmi Park (54:01.480)
president begging, can you get, can I give you please some medicines? Like, no, because
Yeonmi Park (54:06.480)
he wants to be the one provider. He doesn't want people to think other people giving him
Yeonmi Park (54:10.480)
the thing. So on purpose, other people are starving. And that Juche idea is that's when
Yeonmi Park (54:15.480)
it's coming from. So until that communism was about like state is being a father figure,
Yeonmi Park (54:20.480)
takes care of all your needs, right? Give the power to us and you're all good. But North
Yeonmi Park (54:25.480)
Korea regime says, okay, now we cannot give people's ration. So which means Juche means
Yeonmi Park (54:30.480)
self reliance. You need to take care of yourself while you're giving every right to us. So
Yeonmi Park (54:37.480)
now in the 90s, the regime told us, okay, we are not going to give you ration. You cannot
Yeonmi Park (54:43.480)
trade. That's illegal, but you find your own way to survive. So be self reliant. That's
Lex Fridman (54:49.480)
what Juche is. But when you're a guy, you can do whatever you want. You don't need to
Yeonmi Park (54:54.480)
make a sense. That's the difference being a God and being a leader. When it is religion,
Yeonmi Park (55:00.480)
it's not for survival. You cannot challenge it. God's way is suspicious. God works in
Yeonmi Park (55:06.480)
a mysterious way. So when you're a God, people are not going to say, oh, this doesn't make
Yeonmi Park (55:11.480)
sense, right? You're going to, okay, whatever God says, as a human being, we can never change
Yeonmi Park (55:16.480)
his thought. It's unbelievable what regimes can do.
Yeonmi Park (55:20.480)
There's something about famine that is another level of evil to me. What Stalin did in Ukraine
Yeonmi Park (55:39.480)
in the thirties, fuck them. This is what torture is. Cannibalism.
Yeonmi Park (55:51.480)
North Korea too, they eat humans right now in 21st century. 7 billion people on this
Yeonmi Park (55:58.480)
earth right now. You make enough food for 10 billion people. Nobody should be starving
Yeonmi Park (56:04.480)
right now. It's worrisome to me. The humanity is moving forward with the technological advance,
Yeonmi Park (56:10.480)
blah, blah, blah. We are going so fast in advancement. And we are leaving this like
Yeonmi Park (56:15.480)
25 million human beings in the cage, completely leaving them behind. And North Korea is living
Yeonmi Park (56:21.480)
like 16 centuries. This morning I was taking shower, beautiful shower. One never knew what
Yeonmi Park (56:28.480)
shower was. I was bathing a few times a year, going to the river. How do they even know
Lex Fridman (56:34.480)
what shampoo is? And this is how human beings in 21st century are living. And it doesn't
Lex Fridman (56:40.480)
bother us. And rather, most people are obsessed being a vegan. How do you reconcile this?
Yeonmi Park (56:48.480)
I think we get used to stuff very quickly. We get used to comforts. That's just the way
Yeonmi Park (56:52.480)
of human life. You take the beautiful things for granted. So I try to appreciate everything
Yeonmi Park (56:58.480)
I have. So whether it's like the food I have now or like the luxury to have a diet and
Yeonmi Park (57:05.480)
be struggling with that. Or just the basic simple moments of being alive with the people
Yeonmi Park (57:09.480)
I love. Or actually I get like, I think I'm on drugs all the time because I feel like
Yeonmi Park (57:14.480)
just even like this mug, everything on this table just brings me joy. But it's like filling
Yeonmi Park (57:22.480)
your life with joy in the full capitalistic American way, you can still at the same time
Yeonmi Park (57:29.480)
not feel too bad about yourself and still focus on the suffering in the world. And I
Yeonmi Park (57:35.480)
think there's some way that in trying to build a better world in America, it has ripple effects
Yeonmi Park (57:46.480)
elsewhere. Sort of like, so I'm a fan of rockets in space. It sounds perhaps counterintuitive
Lex Fridman (57:55.480)
but sending rockets to space will help solve the North Korea problem because it lets people
Yeonmi Park (58:04.480)
dream and build cool stuff. So it's not the rocket, it's the other people that are inspired
Yeonmi Park (58:12.480)
by the rocket and then look to other problems in the world. I mean, that's what Elon did
Yeonmi Park (58:17.480)
is like he saw problems in the world and thought like, what can I do to help it? And I think
Yeonmi Park (58:23.480)
the North Korea one is a tough one though, because that ultimately has to do with revolutionizing
Yeonmi Park (58:30.480)
government. We got to change China. That's what it takes. Changing China's Communist
Yeonmi Park (58:37.480)
Party is impossible. That's why we couldn't solve North Korea for that many decades. For
Yeonmi Park (58:43.480)
now it's China, but it's China, it's Russia, it's certain aspects of the United States
Lex Fridman (58:52.480)
and struggling with that. There's a bunch of technologies that are striving at this.
Yeonmi Park (58:59.480)
For example, I don't know what your thoughts about cryptocurrencies. I love it. So like
Yeonmi Park (59:04.480)
there's a idea that money could be a way to destroy or to challenge the power centers
Yeonmi Park (59:12.480)
of the world. Yeah. So if you take away the power from fiat currency and give it to this
Yeonmi Park (59:18.480)
thing that can't be controlled by government, this cryptocurrency, whether it's Bitcoin,
Yeonmi Park (59:21.480)
Ethereum, all those kinds of things, that's a way to get money into the hands of people
Yeonmi Park (59:26.480)
to where the government can't take that money away. But North Koreans don't have electricity,
Yeonmi Park (59:32.480)
no internet. So we can do that with China. We can do it with a lot of African dictatorship
Yeonmi Park (59:38.480)
countries, right? I do think big cryptocurrency is such a fascinating technology, right? I
Yeonmi Park (59:44.480)
think this is an amazing experiment when that power is in our hands. I'm a huge out of
Yeonmi Park (59:50.480)
game believer, but I think North Korea is too behind. I think that's what is unique
Yeonmi Park (59:56.480)
about North Korea is that most of the things that we talk about, it's a different planet
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