Thomas Tull: From Batman Dark Knight Trilogy to AI and the Rolling Stones

Lex Fridman (01:19.620)

since I was a kid as a fan,

Lex Fridman (01:21.300)

and I think what you need is to be able

Lex Fridman (01:25.260)

to tell a great story.

Lex Fridman (01:26.620)

And if you're gonna tell a great story,

Lex Fridman (01:28.700)

you need a great director.

Thomas Tull (01:30.380)

You gotta start with a fantastic script

Lex Fridman (01:33.880)

that is able to take some of these iconic characters

Thomas Tull (01:38.380)

that we did and put your own stamp on it

Lex Fridman (01:41.060)

while still respecting the mythology.

Lex Fridman (01:44.860)

And I had zero experience in movies and television

Lex Fridman (01:48.700)

before I started Legendary,

Lex Fridman (01:50.220)

so it was a very interesting trip.

Lex Fridman (01:53.220)

Total luck that we had the opportunity

Thomas Tull (01:57.300)

to make five movies at the time with Chris Nolan,

Lex Fridman (02:01.020)

who turned out to be one of the greatest filmmakers

Thomas Tull (02:03.140)

of all time.

Lex Fridman (02:04.480)

But each one is its own little startup company,

Lex Fridman (02:08.900)

and I don't think there's any formula to get there,

Lex Fridman (02:11.980)

but I know that if you don't have a great director

Lex Fridman (02:15.140)

and a great script, if you don't have that foundation,

Lex Fridman (02:17.620)

it's hard to pull off.

Lex Fridman (02:18.940)

Who's the CEO of that little startup company?

Lex Fridman (02:21.180)

Is it the director?

Thomas Tull (02:22.780)

Who would you say defines the success

Lex Fridman (02:25.100)

or the failure of a movie?

Thomas Tull (02:26.440)

Well, when you build a big movie like that,

Lex Fridman (02:30.000)

it's an enormous effort, 360 degrees.

Thomas Tull (02:33.380)

I mean, from digital effects, certainly the actors.

Lex Fridman (02:37.820)

I mean, if you have an amazing script and amazing director,

Lex Fridman (02:40.860)

but you don't believe anybody playing the parts,

Lex Fridman (02:42.980)

that's a problem.

Lex Fridman (02:43.820)

So the reason I think it was so difficult to pull off

Lex Fridman (02:47.940)

is I always used to say you start with a stack of papers

Thomas Tull (02:51.200)

with words on it called the script, bring that to life,

Lex Fridman (02:55.820)

and you're asking an audience to believe in everything

Thomas Tull (02:58.500)

that you're trying to put out there,

Lex Fridman (03:00.340)

and you've got a cast that,

Thomas Tull (03:02.900)

even if they're immensely talented individually,

Lex Fridman (03:05.100)

they have to mesh together,

Thomas Tull (03:06.380)

they have to have chemistry together.

Lex Fridman (03:09.820)

And the director is kind of a general on the battlefield,

Lex Fridman (03:13.780)

but if you have a strong producer who's very hands on,

Lex Fridman (03:18.380)

but it truly, to me, is each one had its own story

Lex Fridman (03:22.340)

and its own sort of how it came to be

Lex Fridman (03:24.740)

and why it worked or didn't work.

Thomas Tull (03:28.260)

See, you said you were new to the industry,

Lex Fridman (03:30.780)

but you did a lot of revolutionary things with Legendary.

Lex Fridman (03:34.540)

So at that time and now, what is the good, the bad,

Lex Fridman (03:38.660)

and the ugly of the business of filmmaking?

Lex Fridman (03:41.340)

What are some interesting holes that you were able to,

Lex Fridman (03:44.460)

or like problems that you were able to fix?

Lex Fridman (03:47.340)

What problems still exist that can still be solved?

Lex Fridman (03:51.900)

Well, look, the business has changed so radically

Thomas Tull (03:55.900)

since 2004.

Lex Fridman (03:58.220)

When I started Legendary, DVDs were still a cash cow.

Lex Fridman (04:01.740)

So that's how far things have come.

Lex Fridman (04:05.580)

But I would say a couple of things.

Thomas Tull (04:07.140)

The reason that I started it from a business perspective

Lex Fridman (04:10.740)

was at the time it was a $30 billion industry,

Lex Fridman (04:14.220)

and there was no institutional capital

Lex Fridman (04:17.660)

around the movie business.

Lex Fridman (04:19.640)

And I was fascinated by that

Lex Fridman (04:20.860)

because almost every other category that you look at

Thomas Tull (04:23.700)

of that size has institutional capital,

Lex Fridman (04:26.420)

private equity, et cetera,

Thomas Tull (04:27.980)

is kind of a cottage industry set up around it.

Lex Fridman (04:31.020)

And I was perplexed and fascinated that that didn't occur.

Lex Fridman (04:35.020)

And the way the movie business worked

Lex Fridman (04:36.780)

was unlike any business I'd ever looked at before.

Lex Fridman (04:40.020)

So after kind of convincing myself

Lex Fridman (04:43.840)

that you could actually make money

Thomas Tull (04:45.980)

if you were disciplined and had the right approach,

Lex Fridman (04:49.500)

you know, went out,

Thomas Tull (04:50.340)

raised the money from the capital markets,

Lex Fridman (04:52.300)

markets which was Herculean,

Thomas Tull (04:54.740)

still maybe the hardest thing I've ever done in my career,

Lex Fridman (04:58.880)

to walk around and say, look, I have no experience.

Thomas Tull (05:01.980)

I've never done this before, but, you know.

Lex Fridman (05:04.980)

And the second thing, being very fortunate at the time,

Thomas Tull (05:08.940)

was able to partner up with Warner Brothers.

Lex Fridman (05:11.740)

Warner's at the time was run by a man named Alan Horn,

Thomas Tull (05:15.860)

who besides being creative is also a Harvard MBA.

Lex Fridman (05:18.920)

So really understood what I wanted to do.

Lex Fridman (05:22.780)

And Alan, you know, was just an absolute gentleman,

Lex Fridman (05:26.300)

someone that I still look up to to this day.

Thomas Tull (05:29.380)

After Warner Brothers, he went and ran Disney

Lex Fridman (05:31.860)

with their run, you know,

Thomas Tull (05:33.560)

between Marvel and Star Wars and everything.

Lex Fridman (05:35.640)

And so between Alan being responsible for Harry Potter,

Thomas Tull (05:40.640)

the Dark Knight stuff, and then onto all the Disney stuff,

Lex Fridman (05:43.020)

he probably had as great a career

Thomas Tull (05:44.500)

as anyone I've ever heard of in the movie business.

Lex Fridman (05:47.940)

So my first focus was around sort of two concepts,

Thomas Tull (05:52.140)

global, worldwide, large tentpole films and franchises,

Lex Fridman (05:57.420)

and then the business aspect of being,

Thomas Tull (05:59.660)

bringing longterm institutional capital to bear.

Lex Fridman (06:03.300)

I'm gonna ask you dumb questions,

Thomas Tull (06:05.460)

which is part of the style, I guess.

Lex Fridman (06:10.380)

But just for people who don't know, including me,

Lex Fridman (06:13.820)

what is institutional, what is capital?

Lex Fridman (06:16.500)

What is institutional capital?

Lex Fridman (06:18.340)

What is equity, what is private equity?

Lex Fridman (06:20.700)

Got it, okay.

Thomas Tull (06:21.800)

Well, so if you're starting a company

Lex Fridman (06:27.040)

and you go around to a bunch of your successful friends

Lex Fridman (06:30.900)

and say, hey, you should invest in my company.

Lex Fridman (06:34.020)

Well, that's sort of, that's great and it's capital,

Lex Fridman (06:37.380)

but it's not getting money from Fidelity or TRO

Lex Fridman (06:42.700)

or a sovereign wealth fund or an endowment fund

Thomas Tull (06:46.580)

from a university that has large pools of organized capital

Lex Fridman (06:52.100)

that has a longterm point of view on your business.

Lex Fridman (06:56.500)

So if you get money from your neighbor

Lex Fridman (06:59.260)

who's a successful dentist,

Thomas Tull (07:01.520)

next year the dentist may say,

Lex Fridman (07:03.580)

hey, times are hard, I need my money back.

Thomas Tull (07:07.380)

If you're partners with Fidelity or Morgan Stanley

Lex Fridman (07:10.660)

or any of these institutions,

Thomas Tull (07:12.460)

they have the capital and the wherewithal to say,

Lex Fridman (07:16.180)

okay, I'm looking at this over the next five to 10 years.

Lex Fridman (07:19.540)

And I thought there was an opportunity

Lex Fridman (07:21.540)

to bring that type of capital to the movie business

Thomas Tull (07:26.660)

to be patient.

Lex Fridman (07:27.980)

And the benefit of that patient, so it's longterm,

Thomas Tull (07:32.780)

you have to deal with fewer parties

Lex Fridman (07:34.980)

and they would do much larger investments.

Lex Fridman (07:38.740)

So what are the benefits?

Lex Fridman (07:40.100)

What are the sort of the challenges

Lex Fridman (07:41.540)

of that kind of investment?

Lex Fridman (07:42.740)

Well, I think the benefits in some ways

Thomas Tull (07:45.220)

are they're professionals who are largely dispassionate.

Lex Fridman (07:48.980)

It's like, look, if you're hitting the numbers you told me

Lex Fridman (07:51.380)

and you're hitting your plan, great.

Lex Fridman (07:55.300)

And the other thing that always was interesting to me

Thomas Tull (07:58.900)

about the movie business is if I'm investing

Lex Fridman (08:02.480)

in an artificial intelligence company

Thomas Tull (08:04.300)

or a chipset company or something like that,

Lex Fridman (08:07.780)

a lot of the institutions don't have the technical expertise

Thomas Tull (08:11.900)

to really truly grasp what's being done.

Lex Fridman (08:16.380)

So they don't, other than good business practices,

Thomas Tull (08:19.280)

they're not offering every little opinion.

Lex Fridman (08:21.700)

The movies and television are completely approachable,

Thomas Tull (08:25.160)

meaning everybody has an opinion.

Lex Fridman (08:27.860)

So whether it's, I think you guys chose the wrong actor

Lex Fridman (08:31.400)

for that or why did you do that movie?

Lex Fridman (08:34.500)

So it invites a lot more sort of second guessing

Lex Fridman (08:38.460)

and things like that.

Lex Fridman (08:39.480)

So that was always one of the idiosyncrasies

Thomas Tull (08:42.780)

of the business that I thought was interesting.

Lex Fridman (08:47.280)

And then when you talk about private equity

Thomas Tull (08:50.220)

versus public equity, if you're a public company

Lex Fridman (08:52.820)

where the companies are traded,

Thomas Tull (08:56.140)

you wanna buy Microsoft shares, you just go to your broker,

Lex Fridman (08:59.500)

go on TD Ameritrade and buy them.

Thomas Tull (09:01.780)

If on the other hand, you're talking about private equity,

Lex Fridman (09:04.780)

that's institutions or individuals

Thomas Tull (09:08.460)

investing in private companies.

Lex Fridman (09:11.140)

So thus, if you have pools of capital

Thomas Tull (09:13.700)

that mostly invest in private equity deals,

Lex Fridman (09:16.740)

that's how you'd think about it.

Thomas Tull (09:18.540)

It's difficult to make those happen

Lex Fridman (09:20.180)

because it's individuals, you have to sort of,

Thomas Tull (09:23.540)

what, have dinners and agree.

Lex Fridman (09:26.460)

So it's much less, it's much more human,

Thomas Tull (09:31.140)

much less mechanical, I would say.

Lex Fridman (09:33.580)

Yeah, now, and again, massive difference

Thomas Tull (09:36.020)

between large private equity shops who are professionalized

Lex Fridman (09:41.060)

and in the same category that I mentioned earlier

Thomas Tull (09:44.400)

versus private individuals who are wealthy or whatever.

Lex Fridman (09:49.300)

But again, it's much more individualized

Thomas Tull (09:51.980)

when you're going to people who like your idea

Lex Fridman (09:55.740)

and just say, I'd like to invest in this.

Thomas Tull (09:58.460)

Is that, from all the kinds of investments you've seen,

Lex Fridman (10:03.500)

what do you think is the most conducive

Thomas Tull (10:05.200)

to creating works of genius,

Lex Fridman (10:08.660)

whether that's in technology, AI space,

Lex Fridman (10:11.100)

or whether that's in movies?

Lex Fridman (10:12.820)

So creating something special in this world.

Thomas Tull (10:16.100)

I would say a couple of things.

Lex Fridman (10:18.800)

Enough money that whatever endeavor you're going into,

Lex Fridman (10:23.800)

that you're not so nervous about the edges, right?

Lex Fridman (10:27.720)

If I have $100 to spend and I think I can create

Thomas Tull (10:32.240)

a perpetual motion machine or something for $104,

Lex Fridman (10:37.240)

I can't do it because they're all over me about the budget.

Lex Fridman (10:39.880)

So I would say making sure that you have enough capital,

Lex Fridman (10:43.480)

making sure that that capital is patient enough

Lex Fridman (10:46.640)

so that it's, if you're gonna do things

Lex Fridman (10:48.640)

that are extraordinary, it takes some time.

Lex Fridman (10:52.280)

And you're gonna break stuff, right?

Lex Fridman (10:55.080)

You're gonna make mistakes,

Thomas Tull (10:56.160)

you're gonna have a whole bunch of film

Lex Fridman (10:58.800)

on the cutting room floor, so to speak,

Thomas Tull (11:00.480)

or if you're in the lab,

Lex Fridman (11:01.520)

you're gonna have a whole bunch of broken stuff.

Lex Fridman (11:04.140)

And I also think it's very important at the beginning,

Lex Fridman (11:07.640)

and I always try to do this with companies I invest in

Thomas Tull (11:10.400)

or buy, is make sure that you have a philosophical

Lex Fridman (11:15.520)

and somewhat mechanical alignment with the management team.

Lex Fridman (11:20.080)

So that going in, you both understand,

Lex Fridman (11:23.800)

hey, this is how we think about this problem

Thomas Tull (11:26.280)

or this company, this is what we feel like our culture is,

Lex Fridman (11:30.520)

this is what our goal is, and these are the metrics

Thomas Tull (11:32.760)

by which we'll agree to measure them by.

Lex Fridman (11:35.640)

Because if you don't have that shared,

Thomas Tull (11:39.680)

you know, hey, we're gonna take this journey,

Lex Fridman (11:42.680)

then I think that's where people get upset,

Thomas Tull (11:45.280)

disappointed, et cetera.

Lex Fridman (11:47.060)

What about, this is a weird question, but constraints.

Lex Fridman (11:50.920)

So this is both for filmmaking and investment.

Lex Fridman (11:54.640)

Do you think more money is always better?

Thomas Tull (11:57.020)

No.

Lex Fridman (11:58.500)

So I like constraints a lot.

Thomas Tull (12:01.840)

It's like constraints and almost like a desperation,

Lex Fridman (12:06.360)

and deadlines are catalysts for creativity,

Thomas Tull (12:10.480)

for productivity, for sort of innovation.

Lex Fridman (12:15.220)

So can you kind of speak to that as an investor,

Lex Fridman (12:19.080)

as a creator, like what's the right balance here?

Lex Fridman (12:23.400)

Well, I think if you're focused on a particular problem

Thomas Tull (12:27.600)

or a company or a thesis, if you have that focus

Lex Fridman (12:31.960)

and you feel like I have unlimited resources

Thomas Tull (12:36.120)

or renewable resources, so there's really,

Lex Fridman (12:39.220)

there's no leverage in the situation, right?

Thomas Tull (12:43.520)

There's no, if I fail at this,

Lex Fridman (12:47.240)

I'll just go get more money, right?

Thomas Tull (12:49.440)

I'll just go, I think that's a hard way to be resilient

Lex Fridman (12:55.000)

and to think of new ways to solve problems.

Lex Fridman (13:00.720)

So I think capitalizing things just, you know,

Lex Fridman (13:05.200)

to the nth degree does create some problems.

Lex Fridman (13:08.640)

So I think there's that perfect blend of

Lex Fridman (13:11.320)

don't starve the oxygen to the point

Thomas Tull (13:14.000)

where you make short term decisions

Lex Fridman (13:15.960)

or non strategic or thoughtful decisions

Thomas Tull (13:18.720)

because you gotta pay the rent.

Lex Fridman (13:20.360)

And on the other hand, you can't have it be like this,

Thomas Tull (13:24.880)

you know, everlasting gobstopper of whatever you want

Lex Fridman (13:28.940)

will just keep flowing the cash

Thomas Tull (13:30.400)

because that doesn't create any friction points

Lex Fridman (13:33.080)

that I think do result in works of genius,

Thomas Tull (13:38.080)

works of genius in things that, you know,

Lex Fridman (13:42.580)

that are transformative.

Lex Fridman (13:44.260)

And one of the things that is interesting to me

Lex Fridman (13:48.460)

about society sort of writ large is

Thomas Tull (13:54.100)

I think that when you go through hard times

Lex Fridman (13:59.020)

and you have to do things that are uncomfortable

Lex Fridman (14:02.260)

and you don't wanna do them because you're tired,

Lex Fridman (14:04.980)

because you're, that in some ways builds up that

Thomas Tull (14:09.020)

you're comfortable being uncomfortable muscle.

Lex Fridman (14:12.720)

And I sometimes think we're losing that a little bit

Lex Fridman (14:17.920)

and you can't sort of paint with a wide brush,

Lex Fridman (14:20.880)

but you know, that's one of the things

Thomas Tull (14:25.480)

that I kind of observe and hope that we don't go that way.

Lex Fridman (14:30.300)

I do think challenge and discomfort are a kind of gift

Thomas Tull (14:34.220)

because like overcoming that,

Lex Fridman (14:36.940)

it's like from every perspective,

Thomas Tull (14:39.040)

from a human perspective, it's a source of happiness

Lex Fridman (14:41.320)

and fulfillment, overcoming challenge.

Lex Fridman (14:43.780)

But from a business perspective,

Lex Fridman (14:45.840)

I see like if something is really difficult,

Thomas Tull (14:48.860)

to me it's also a sign that most others would,

Lex Fridman (14:51.740)

or many others would fail at this point.

Lex Fridman (14:54.400)

So like it's a feature.

Lex Fridman (14:55.920)

It's nice that something is difficult.

Thomas Tull (14:58.120)

When people tell you that something is impossible,

Lex Fridman (15:02.100)

I love that because it's like, all right,

Thomas Tull (15:03.980)

well then that's what a lot of people would believe.

Lex Fridman (15:06.980)

And that gives you an opportunity to be the person

Thomas Tull (15:09.540)

who shows it's not impossible.

Lex Fridman (15:11.120)

And you, of course you might be wrong,

Lex Fridman (15:12.800)

but if you're not wrong,

Lex Fridman (15:14.120)

you have the opportunity to stand out.

Lex Fridman (15:15.600)

So going through that hardship, taking those big risks,

Lex Fridman (15:18.840)

it's going to really pay off.

Lex Fridman (15:20.400)

So like discomfort is a feature, not a bug

Lex Fridman (15:26.760)

of both personal life, it's just good for life,

Lex Fridman (15:30.120)

but for business, it seems like just good business sense.

Lex Fridman (15:34.760)

If something is hard, it's probably a good idea to do that.

Thomas Tull (15:38.620)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (15:39.460)

Because most others will fail.

Thomas Tull (15:41.560)

Fun question.

Lex Fridman (15:42.400)

I don't know if you can answer this,

Lex Fridman (15:43.520)

but what's the most expensive movie

Lex Fridman (15:46.160)

you were involved with to make?

Lex Fridman (15:48.040)

And why was it, you don't have to say numbers,

Lex Fridman (15:50.860)

but like is something stand out

Lex Fridman (15:53.160)

as being exceptionally expensive and why is it expensive?

Lex Fridman (15:57.380)

Um, I think Jurassic World was pretty expensive.

Thomas Tull (16:01.500)

Nice.

Lex Fridman (16:02.340)

I mean, worked out great.

Thomas Tull (16:05.740)

And, uh.

Lex Fridman (16:06.940)

That's an epic film, by the way.

Thomas Tull (16:09.580)

It, look, it's one of my favorites.

Lex Fridman (16:13.900)

They just did an amazing job.

Lex Fridman (16:16.180)

And frankly, the crazy thing about my life

Lex Fridman (16:20.400)

is all the stuff that I loved as a kid

Thomas Tull (16:23.060)

somehow came full circle back into my adult life.

Lex Fridman (16:27.240)

And having the opportunity while I was out there

Thomas Tull (16:31.300)

to develop a friendship with Steven Spielberg

Lex Fridman (16:35.220)

and then have my name on the same film as Steven Spielberg.

Thomas Tull (16:39.120)

I mean, that was pretty surreal.

Lex Fridman (16:44.320)

So that was an expensive film.

Thomas Tull (16:46.900)

You know, Dark Knight Rises was an expensive film.

Lex Fridman (16:49.820)

But again, to me, there's a difference

Thomas Tull (16:51.660)

between expensive and irresponsible,

Lex Fridman (16:54.480)

and expensive because the vision warranted

Lex Fridman (16:58.540)

and it turned out financially it certainly did.

Lex Fridman (17:01.180)

Yeah, with Jurassic World, it's.

Thomas Tull (17:04.340)

I mean, I can't even imagine having those meetings

Lex Fridman (17:06.420)

because like you have to create so much

Lex Fridman (17:08.980)

and so much of it is obviously not real.

Lex Fridman (17:11.100)

You can't bring dinosaurs in a.

Thomas Tull (17:14.200)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (17:15.780)

Is that where a lot of the cost is,

Lex Fridman (17:17.460)

is in the computer side of things?

Lex Fridman (17:22.460)

Yeah, those are generally pretty massive components

Thomas Tull (17:26.040)

of the budget, and especially if you're doing it

Lex Fridman (17:30.080)

and inventing things as you go.

Thomas Tull (17:32.640)

I mean, Jim Cameron is one of those filmmakers

Lex Fridman (17:36.440)

who is designing the plane as it's flying

Thomas Tull (17:41.480)

in such a brilliant way.

Lex Fridman (17:43.840)

And I've got to know him over the years

Lex Fridman (17:47.440)

and just in awe of the way his brain works.

Lex Fridman (17:51.280)

And so yeah, it's a big component.

Lex Fridman (17:55.280)

Can you speak a little bit more to him

Lex Fridman (17:57.000)

in terms of, because you're such a fascinating person

Thomas Tull (18:01.040)

because you care a lot about technology.

Lex Fridman (18:02.920)

You care a lot about the cutting edge of technology.

Lex Fridman (18:06.000)

So how does he, a creator, a director,

Lex Fridman (18:10.280)

build the plane while it's flying?

Lex Fridman (18:12.440)

Like what's the role of innovation in this whole process?

Lex Fridman (18:15.600)

Well, so I never made a film with Jim.

Thomas Tull (18:20.040)

I'm just a huge fan and got to know him

Lex Fridman (18:23.800)

and John Landau, his producing partner.

Lex Fridman (18:27.360)

And one of the things that just fascinates me about Jim is,

Lex Fridman (18:31.360)

so he makes Titanic and there's a bunch of underwater cameras

Lex Fridman (18:34.960)

and things that they need that don't exist.

Lex Fridman (18:37.520)

So he goes and invents them and has a good grasp

Thomas Tull (18:42.560)

of engineering and has not only the imagination,

Lex Fridman (18:46.060)

but the ability to lead a team to build them.

Thomas Tull (18:50.420)

I got to go down early when they were shooting Avatar

Lex Fridman (18:55.020)

at a warehouse, I think it was, where they were shooting.

Lex Fridman (18:57.920)

And as they were explaining to me how they were capturing it

Lex Fridman (19:02.000)

and that they could go back later

Thomas Tull (19:03.700)

because they created the environment, it blew my mind.

Lex Fridman (19:08.540)

And I said, okay, this is truly,

Thomas Tull (19:11.160)

people talk about a big leap.

Lex Fridman (19:13.000)

This certainly is one.

Lex Fridman (19:14.040)

So he has continued to push the envelope

Lex Fridman (19:18.720)

in terms of the art of the possible.

Lex Fridman (19:20.940)

And I just think he's an incredible genius in that way.

Lex Fridman (19:26.200)

Again, another hard question.

Lex Fridman (19:27.760)

So you, in the realm of music, care about story, storytelling.

Lex Fridman (19:33.520)

Is there some aspect in which money

Lex Fridman (19:37.320)

and beautiful graphics get in the way of story?

Lex Fridman (19:40.060)

In filmmaking, so if you think about Jurassic World,

Thomas Tull (19:47.140)

obviously that's an experience like any other.

Lex Fridman (19:52.380)

Like what do you think about the tension

Lex Fridman (19:54.780)

between story, experience and like visual effects?

Lex Fridman (1:00:00.680)

There's a scoreboard.

Lex Fridman (1:00:02.280)

And I'm a huge believer in opportunity, meritocracy,

Lex Fridman (1:00:07.920)

all those things that I think are ideals

Thomas Tull (1:00:11.520)

that we wanna aspire to.

Lex Fridman (1:00:14.680)

And I think that there's a lot of things

Thomas Tull (1:00:18.240)

I'm involved with right now that I just wanna see

Lex Fridman (1:00:21.400)

if I can do it.

Thomas Tull (1:00:22.240)

I wanna see if, and you know,

Lex Fridman (1:00:26.360)

my own little mantra is cause the outcome, right?

Thomas Tull (1:00:29.640)

As much as you can, and at the same time,

Lex Fridman (1:00:32.480)

have the humility and not to have the hubris or arrogance

Thomas Tull (1:00:36.080)

to say I'm always gonna cause the outcome.

Lex Fridman (1:00:38.920)

Because you'll get your ass kicked pretty quickly

Lex Fridman (1:00:41.720)

and humbled.

Lex Fridman (1:00:43.040)

The world and the universe is a big place

Thomas Tull (1:00:45.160)

with forces beyond, but I think,

Lex Fridman (1:00:52.600)

I also think a lot about being intellectually honest,

Thomas Tull (1:00:56.160)

which when I do university talks and so forth,

Lex Fridman (1:00:59.480)

I think that's a superpower.

Thomas Tull (1:01:02.680)

Because if you find yourself making decisions

Lex Fridman (1:01:06.560)

based on other people's expectations,

Thomas Tull (1:01:10.040)

based on places you don't wanna go,

Lex Fridman (1:01:13.280)

but you feel like momentum is taking you there,

Thomas Tull (1:01:20.680)

I think that's a big problem.

Lex Fridman (1:01:22.160)

And there are people that go to our top universities

Lex Fridman (1:01:26.960)

and can't wait to get out and start their own company

Lex Fridman (1:01:30.600)

and they want that pressure and they want to grind.

Lex Fridman (1:01:35.160)

And there are other people that are smart and talented,

Lex Fridman (1:01:38.520)

but just say, look, I don't wanna lay awake

Thomas Tull (1:01:41.080)

staring at the ceiling wondering

Lex Fridman (1:01:42.400)

how I'm gonna make payroll.

Thomas Tull (1:01:43.680)

I don't want that in my life.

Lex Fridman (1:01:45.480)

And I think if you can square that up

Lex Fridman (1:01:48.600)

and be okay with it and say, what makes me tick?

Lex Fridman (1:01:51.240)

What makes me happy?

Lex Fridman (1:01:52.800)

What puts me in a bad head space?

Lex Fridman (1:01:54.680)

Because there's a difference between challenging yourself

Lex Fridman (1:01:57.920)

and going against your nature.

Lex Fridman (1:02:00.080)

So that's why I think that being intellectually honest

Lex Fridman (1:02:03.000)

and being able to really sit down

Lex Fridman (1:02:05.320)

and go inside your own head and say,

Lex Fridman (1:02:08.000)

what am I good at?

Lex Fridman (1:02:08.840)

What am I not good at?

Lex Fridman (1:02:10.480)

How am I gonna put myself in a position

Lex Fridman (1:02:12.320)

to be successful?

Thomas Tull (1:02:13.760)

Because I'm working on my weaknesses,

Lex Fridman (1:02:17.440)

but I'm not gonna put myself career wise in a position

Thomas Tull (1:02:21.840)

where I'm just fundamentally gonna have a hard time

Lex Fridman (1:02:24.840)

being successful.

Thomas Tull (1:02:28.200)

Yeah, intellectually honest is a tricky one.

Lex Fridman (1:02:30.120)

And it gets, there's like levels to it too.

Thomas Tull (1:02:34.320)

Sure.

Lex Fridman (1:02:35.840)

Because some of the things I think about

Thomas Tull (1:02:40.280)

when you dream of doing certain kinds of big things,

Lex Fridman (1:02:49.320)

a part of intellectual honesty is to say several things.

Thomas Tull (1:02:53.560)

One is like, hey, the thing you're dreaming about,

Lex Fridman (1:02:59.320)

like one, the fact that nobody's done it

Thomas Tull (1:03:02.960)

probably shows that you're just a dreamer.

Lex Fridman (1:03:07.960)

This is not going to, like think clearly.

Thomas Tull (1:03:13.080)

The fact that it hasn't been done

Lex Fridman (1:03:14.280)

probably shows that it may not be the right path.

Lex Fridman (1:03:17.480)

And two is like, if you're dreaming about stuff,

Lex Fridman (1:03:21.680)

there's a certain point where it's like,

Thomas Tull (1:03:23.680)

hey, you haven't done it.

Lex Fridman (1:03:25.840)

Like, why haven't you done it already then?

Thomas Tull (1:03:27.760)

Like you have to be honest with yourself.

Lex Fridman (1:03:29.200)

Like you have to be ambitious.

Thomas Tull (1:03:30.480)

Like a lot of people work hard a long time for a dream,

Lex Fridman (1:03:35.480)

but you have to wake up and be like, all right,

Thomas Tull (1:03:38.920)

I've been at this for 10 years.

Lex Fridman (1:03:41.000)

Like with a startup, you launch a startup

Lex Fridman (1:03:43.240)

and you think, okay, one year, two years,

Lex Fridman (1:03:46.800)

three years, four years, pretty successful,

Lex Fridman (1:03:49.080)

but it hasn't exploded like you dreamed

Lex Fridman (1:03:50.840)

and you have to shut it down.

Thomas Tull (1:03:54.120)

You have to be intellectually honest there.

Lex Fridman (1:03:56.000)

At the same time, you might want to be,

Thomas Tull (1:04:01.080)

like step it up, lean into it.

Lex Fridman (1:04:03.060)

Say almost like the flip side of like intellectual honesty

Thomas Tull (1:04:10.140)

is like maddening ambition of just saying, fuck it,

Lex Fridman (1:04:14.980)

I'm going to go all in.

Lex Fridman (1:04:16.940)

But that is a kind of intellectual honesty saying like,

Lex Fridman (1:04:19.820)

you know, the big problem here is I've been kind of going,

Thomas Tull (1:04:23.140)

doing too many things.

Lex Fridman (1:04:26.180)

Maybe with this dream, you have to go all in on it.

Thomas Tull (1:04:29.940)

All those kinds of things.

Lex Fridman (1:04:30.780)

I mean, this is human experience, it's complicated.

Thomas Tull (1:04:34.220)

Yes, all human things are complicated.

Lex Fridman (1:04:37.580)

And I think there's a difference between being reckless

Lex Fridman (1:04:41.700)

and making well thought out informed decisions.

Lex Fridman (1:04:44.980)

If you're going to go all in,

Thomas Tull (1:04:46.340)

make sure you've measured twice, cut once, as they say.

Lex Fridman (1:04:50.900)

And one of my other favorite, I forget,

Thomas Tull (1:04:54.980)

many years ago, I heard this saying and it stayed with me.

Lex Fridman (1:04:57.460)

It was never mistake, clear line of sight

Thomas Tull (1:05:00.740)

with distance and you know that.

Lex Fridman (1:05:03.820)

So I think that the key, whether you're starting a business

Thomas Tull (1:05:10.020)

or you're thinking about leaving the company you're at

Lex Fridman (1:05:12.300)

and starting a business or just leaving for another job,

Lex Fridman (1:05:15.320)

any of these things is as much as you can, right?

Lex Fridman (1:05:19.180)

And psychologists, I think would tell us,

Lex Fridman (1:05:21.300)

it's hard to be self aware completely, right?

Lex Fridman (1:05:24.300)

That's the rub that if we were all completely self aware

Thomas Tull (1:05:27.540)

of everything that we did and strengthen weaknesses,

Lex Fridman (1:05:30.340)

it'd be a different world.

Lex Fridman (1:05:32.340)

But I do think you can work on that

Lex Fridman (1:05:35.480)

and at least challenge yourself to think about it

Lex Fridman (1:05:39.380)

and not be in a position where I'm going to medical school

Lex Fridman (1:05:43.940)

because that's what you do in my family

Lex Fridman (1:05:45.620)

and even though I'm miserable doing it,

Lex Fridman (1:05:50.100)

things like that.

Lex Fridman (1:05:51.660)

So definitely you don't want to be sort of,

Lex Fridman (1:05:54.700)

because you don't think fall victim to conformity.

Thomas Tull (1:05:59.700)

Let's just go on doing the same thing over and over.

Lex Fridman (1:06:02.240)

That's right.

Lex Fridman (1:06:03.080)

But at the same time, is measure twice and cut once.

Lex Fridman (1:06:11.520)

It does feel like some of the biggest leaps taken

Thomas Tull (1:06:17.120)

are where you cut once and measure later.

Lex Fridman (1:06:22.680)

Is you leap in first.

Thomas Tull (1:06:24.200)

Sure.

Lex Fridman (1:06:25.040)

It's almost like a gut, I suppose that is a measurement,

Lex Fridman (1:06:28.360)

but you build up a good gut instinct of what to do

Lex Fridman (1:06:32.320)

and then you just do it and then you figure out,

Thomas Tull (1:06:35.040)

it's the building the airplane as you're flying it.

Lex Fridman (1:06:37.920)

Right.

Thomas Tull (1:06:39.040)

Well, and I think each one of those instances

Lex Fridman (1:06:42.880)

that you could probably cite

Lex Fridman (1:06:44.040)

has its own unique circumstances, right?

Lex Fridman (1:06:47.760)

I don't have a deep biotech background,

Lex Fridman (1:06:50.360)

so if I suddenly stood up and said,

Lex Fridman (1:06:51.920)

I'm gonna put everything I have into this idea,

Lex Fridman (1:06:55.080)

well, those are, it's game theory, right?

Lex Fridman (1:06:59.840)

What are the odds of success?

Thomas Tull (1:07:01.880)

If on the other hand, you're brilliant in your field

Lex Fridman (1:07:06.800)

or you've seen some opportunity

Thomas Tull (1:07:08.760)

that you think is wide open

Lex Fridman (1:07:12.040)

and you're gonna go for it and break stuff, that's great.

Thomas Tull (1:07:16.120)

You just wanna, to me, always say like,

Lex Fridman (1:07:20.120)

how crazy is this on the spectrum of,

Lex Fridman (1:07:23.700)

do I have any expertise?

Lex Fridman (1:07:25.840)

What is the downside if I fail, right?

Thomas Tull (1:07:30.440)

If you're at a certain point in life with young children

Lex Fridman (1:07:34.980)

and you've got a mortgage and whatever else,

Thomas Tull (1:07:37.780)

that is one circumstance versus I just got out of Stanford

Lex Fridman (1:07:41.320)

or I just got out of whatever and I'm gonna go for it.

Lex Fridman (1:07:44.800)

It's just the whole thing, right?

Lex Fridman (1:07:47.540)

It is complex as you point out.

Lex Fridman (1:07:49.920)

And sometimes you just wanna have the right matrix

Lex Fridman (1:07:52.820)

in your head of decision making process

Thomas Tull (1:07:55.480)

to try to arrive at the right place.

Lex Fridman (1:07:57.680)

And even if you get close, that's where I think you say,

Thomas Tull (1:08:00.720)

you know what, the hell with it, I'm doing this.

Lex Fridman (1:08:03.560)

Yeah, yeah.

Thomas Tull (1:08:06.120)

I do wanna ask you about one specific idea

Lex Fridman (1:08:10.600)

that sounds super fascinating

Thomas Tull (1:08:12.600)

that you're involved with recently.

Lex Fridman (1:08:13.880)

You led the $50 million seed round

Thomas Tull (1:08:16.240)

for a company called Colossal

Lex Fridman (1:08:18.320)

that is focused on deextinction.

Thomas Tull (1:08:22.920)

This is funny relative to our connection

Lex Fridman (1:08:25.520)

and conversation about Jurassic World.

Thomas Tull (1:08:28.520)

They're seeking to restore lost ecosystems

Lex Fridman (1:08:30.920)

and use gene editing to restore the woolly mammoth

Thomas Tull (1:08:34.640)

to the Arctic tundra.

Lex Fridman (1:08:37.680)

How are they gonna do that?

Thomas Tull (1:08:39.640)

Well, I met this fascinating guy at Harvard

Lex Fridman (1:08:43.360)

named George Church five, six years ago,

Lex Fridman (1:08:48.440)

and found him to be incredibly smart, have an imagination.

Lex Fridman (1:08:56.260)

And he partnered up with a guy named Ben Lamb,

Thomas Tull (1:08:59.820)

who's an entrepreneur.

Lex Fridman (1:09:02.540)

And basically the press and to me the imaginative,

Thomas Tull (1:09:09.960)

like you're capturing my imagination by telling me

Lex Fridman (1:09:12.560)

you're gonna bring back the woolly mammoth

Lex Fridman (1:09:14.000)

and other extinct animals.

Lex Fridman (1:09:15.620)

And I, you know, we'll see where that road leads.

Thomas Tull (1:09:18.720)

I was more interested in an investor

Lex Fridman (1:09:22.240)

in the things that they're working through

Thomas Tull (1:09:25.640)

around understanding genes and proteins

Lex Fridman (1:09:30.080)

and CRISPR and all these other things

Thomas Tull (1:09:31.840)

because being adjacent to George Church and his team

Lex Fridman (1:09:36.920)

as these things unfold over the next decade,

Thomas Tull (1:09:39.040)

I thought was the right thing to do.

Lex Fridman (1:09:42.840)

So people are important here,

Thomas Tull (1:09:44.160)

just like investing people and seeing

Lex Fridman (1:09:46.600)

what the hell they come up with.

Thomas Tull (1:09:48.120)

Absolutely, I mean, you can look through history

Lex Fridman (1:09:51.420)

and great things are done by great people, right?

Lex Fridman (1:09:57.360)

And companies, they end up over time becoming a logo

Lex Fridman (1:10:02.720)

and immediately what you think of them,

Lex Fridman (1:10:04.820)

but they started out with a person, with an idea

Lex Fridman (1:10:08.360)

and a team that cultivated that and made that happen.

Lex Fridman (1:10:13.760)

And I think there are certain folks

Lex Fridman (1:10:16.560)

that are just immensely talented

Thomas Tull (1:10:18.240)

that if you can be around them,

Lex Fridman (1:10:21.840)

and I also know his and his team's ethics

Thomas Tull (1:10:25.940)

in terms of, you know, after spending time

Lex Fridman (1:10:28.680)

talking about where the lines are,

Thomas Tull (1:10:32.960)

people in other countries that, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:10:35.060)

may not have the same process,

Thomas Tull (1:10:37.480)

may not have the same checks and balances,

Lex Fridman (1:10:39.760)

are doing this and pursuing this regardless.

Lex Fridman (1:10:42.520)

So at least I felt like with George and Ben and their teams,

Lex Fridman (1:10:46.280)

they're also very responsible people.

Thomas Tull (1:10:49.480)

This is where the human side of things comes into play.

Lex Fridman (1:10:53.560)

I've interacted with a lot of really brilliant people

Thomas Tull (1:10:55.940)

in the technology space where you kind of,

Lex Fridman (1:10:59.760)

you know, there's a lot of ways to feel this out.

Thomas Tull (1:11:01.540)

You can ask them whether they kind of read literature.

Lex Fridman (1:11:03.880)

You can feel out how much do they really understand

Thomas Tull (1:11:08.960)

about like human nature here.

Lex Fridman (1:11:12.240)

Like whatever the technology is,

Thomas Tull (1:11:14.760)

when it actually starts to play,

Lex Fridman (1:11:17.800)

interact with society at scale,

Thomas Tull (1:11:21.120)

like do they have an understanding

Lex Fridman (1:11:23.600)

or an intuition about how that happens?

Thomas Tull (1:11:26.380)

Some of that requires studying history.

Lex Fridman (1:11:28.160)

Some of that requires like just looking at

Thomas Tull (1:11:30.720)

the worst and best parts and events in human history

Lex Fridman (1:11:35.320)

to understand like, hey, it doesn't always turn out

Thomas Tull (1:11:38.800)

like everybody hoped the technology turns out.

Lex Fridman (1:11:43.920)

If a person has a depth of understanding about history,

Thomas Tull (1:11:47.360)

about human nature, then I think that's the right person

Lex Fridman (1:11:52.320)

to mess with some of this cutting edge stuff.

Thomas Tull (1:11:56.520)

Now you want Marcus Aurelius with a PhD from MIT.

Lex Fridman (1:12:01.440)

Exactly, exactly.

Thomas Tull (1:12:04.480)

Just small tangent, but you mentioned having a conversation

Lex Fridman (1:12:08.480)

with Warren Buffett, you spoke really highly of him

Thomas Tull (1:12:11.400)

as an investor, as a human being.

Lex Fridman (1:12:15.520)

What about him do you admire?

Lex Fridman (1:12:17.040)

What from him, what insights have you drawn from him

Lex Fridman (1:12:21.160)

as a great investor yourself?

Thomas Tull (1:12:23.720)

Well, the afternoon that I got to spend with him,

Lex Fridman (1:12:26.220)

which is something I'll treasure forever.

Thomas Tull (1:12:28.920)

Look, sometimes when you meet people,

Lex Fridman (1:12:31.280)

even that are immensely successful,

Thomas Tull (1:12:34.400)

you may decide that after 20 minutes or a half hour,

Lex Fridman (1:12:39.360)

oh, you were in the right place at the right time

Lex Fridman (1:12:42.320)

and that's fine.

Lex Fridman (1:12:45.740)

There are other people that are clearly different,

Thomas Tull (1:12:49.080)

special, and I don't care if you made them start from zero,

Lex Fridman (1:12:52.940)

you know, would end up in a good place.

Lex Fridman (1:12:56.940)

And so it was an absolute privilege

Lex Fridman (1:12:59.560)

to spend the time with him.

Thomas Tull (1:13:03.420)

You know, and a couple of things that stood out

Lex Fridman (1:13:06.060)

in the conversation, he is incredibly intellectually curious

Lex Fridman (1:13:11.340)

and well read, and I like how simplistic he likes

Lex Fridman (1:13:15.800)

to keep his thought matrix.

Lex Fridman (1:13:17.960)

And then also, instead of trying to outsmart the market,

Lex Fridman (1:13:23.320)

it seems like a simple axiom, but just look,

Thomas Tull (1:13:26.680)

good companies that are led by talented managers

Lex Fridman (1:13:31.180)

that are good businesses over time are gonna get there.

Lex Fridman (1:13:35.100)

So I'm not gonna day trade, I'm just gonna,

Lex Fridman (1:13:37.820)

I'm looking for value.

Lex Fridman (1:13:40.380)

And then just on life stuff, he just, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:13:44.860)

and also his ability to take in

Lex Fridman (1:13:49.000)

and then use information was incredibly impressive.

Lex Fridman (1:13:54.660)

So I only spent the, you know, I'd met him before,

Lex Fridman (1:13:58.260)

but I only spent one afternoon with him,

Lex Fridman (1:14:00.180)

but it's, you know, pretty incredible.

Lex Fridman (1:14:02.700)

And one of the things that stuck out to me

Lex Fridman (1:14:05.140)

is we were in the middle of talking about Tolko

Thomas Tull (1:14:08.500)

or investing or how we thought about it.

Lex Fridman (1:14:10.800)

And I said, you know, I'm trying to be smart about,

Lex Fridman (1:14:14.540)

and he stopped me and he said, Charlie Munger,

Lex Fridman (1:14:16.740)

his partner of many years, Charlie and I

Thomas Tull (1:14:18.540)

don't try to think of the smart thing to do.

Lex Fridman (1:14:21.000)

We try to think what's the dumb thing we could do here.

Lex Fridman (1:14:24.640)

And I kind of laughed and he said, no, I'm dead serious.

Lex Fridman (1:14:28.040)

We think about it from the standpoint of

Lex Fridman (1:14:31.900)

what could we do in this situation that later

Lex Fridman (1:14:34.180)

we'd be like, that was a really dumb thing to do.

Lex Fridman (1:14:37.480)

And I actually thought that was, it got in my head.

Lex Fridman (1:14:41.420)

And I still think a lot about that

Thomas Tull (1:14:43.460)

as I'm dissecting problems.

Lex Fridman (1:14:46.860)

So there is, like, that's a kind of longterm thinking

Thomas Tull (1:14:51.540)

if you just avoid the dumb things,

Lex Fridman (1:14:54.100)

or if you simplify, just focus on those simple steps,

Thomas Tull (1:14:59.340)

all it takes is just do that for a long period of time

Lex Fridman (1:15:02.740)

and you'll be successful.

Thomas Tull (1:15:04.500)

Well, it certainly worked for him, that's all I can say.

Lex Fridman (1:15:07.580)

What about you?

Thomas Tull (1:15:10.220)

You've been a great investor yourself.

Lex Fridman (1:15:14.660)

How do you know, when you judge people,

Lex Fridman (1:15:18.240)

so I, whenever I go to San Francisco,

Lex Fridman (1:15:21.140)

I was thinking of moving to San Francisco.

Thomas Tull (1:15:22.900)

That's why I decided to, after really giving it

Lex Fridman (1:15:26.020)

some thought, talking to people, decided to move to Austin.

Thomas Tull (1:15:29.020)

You know, everybody's dreaming big and they have big plans.

Lex Fridman (1:15:33.660)

And it's actually, I don't envy the job of an investor

Thomas Tull (1:15:37.780)

of any kind, because everybody has big dreams

Lex Fridman (1:15:42.180)

and it's hard to know who exactly,

Lex Fridman (1:15:45.140)

what idea is going to materialize,

Lex Fridman (1:15:48.380)

what team is going to materialize into something great.

Lex Fridman (1:15:51.700)

How do you make those decisions about people, about ideas?

Lex Fridman (1:15:57.340)

Well, if I had any kind of a lattice work on this,

Thomas Tull (1:16:01.900)

it absolutely starts with the people.

Lex Fridman (1:16:04.860)

And I think the reason for that is your business plan

Lex Fridman (1:16:08.300)

is going to change, right?

Lex Fridman (1:16:10.340)

There's very few businesses I know of that say,

Thomas Tull (1:16:13.340)

we're gonna make a widget in this location

Lex Fridman (1:16:16.020)

and 30 years later, we're successful

Lex Fridman (1:16:18.460)

and we just make a widget and that's what it is.

Lex Fridman (1:16:21.060)

Things happen, right?

Lex Fridman (1:16:22.420)

And today they happen with such velocity

Lex Fridman (1:16:25.980)

that you have to be able to make hard decisions

Thomas Tull (1:16:31.340)

based on imperfect information.

Lex Fridman (1:16:34.220)

And are you, how are you going to calculate those answers?

Lex Fridman (1:16:38.700)

How self interested are you going to be?

Lex Fridman (1:16:41.780)

What kind of ethics will you apply?

Lex Fridman (1:16:44.900)

What's your short term versus long term thinking?

Lex Fridman (1:16:47.500)

Are you able to give an honest assessment of a situation?

Thomas Tull (1:16:53.380)

Because the thing that you can count on

Lex Fridman (1:16:55.820)

is problems are gonna happen.

Thomas Tull (1:16:58.460)

Things you didn't anticipate are gonna happen.

Lex Fridman (1:17:01.620)

How pliable are you, right?

Lex Fridman (1:17:04.020)

How much elasticity is there in your ability

Lex Fridman (1:17:09.060)

to be successful?

Lex Fridman (1:17:10.620)

And I think it's important when you invest in something

Lex Fridman (1:17:15.220)

that you both see, you understand the roadmap ahead

Lex Fridman (1:17:20.020)

and agree to it, right?

Lex Fridman (1:17:21.740)

Doesn't mean there won't be twists and turns,

Lex Fridman (1:17:23.460)

but you're not like, whoa, wait a minute,

Lex Fridman (1:17:25.060)

what did we do here?

Thomas Tull (1:17:26.260)

This isn't what was in the thing I signed up for.

Lex Fridman (1:17:29.540)

And then I think honesty and communication

Thomas Tull (1:17:34.940)

is a huge thing to me with,

Lex Fridman (1:17:38.260)

I always tell people if bi directionally,

Thomas Tull (1:17:42.340)

if there's something going on,

Lex Fridman (1:17:43.780)

start the conversation with, Lex, we have a problem.

Thomas Tull (1:17:48.380)

Okay, now I'm sitting up, you have my full attention,

Lex Fridman (1:17:52.180)

we're gonna talk about whatever it is.

Thomas Tull (1:17:54.180)

Bad news should travel faster than good news.

Lex Fridman (1:17:56.840)

And because it's going to happen,

Thomas Tull (1:18:02.240)

being in business with someone

Lex Fridman (1:18:04.480)

that is gonna shoot you straight

Lex Fridman (1:18:07.000)

and sometimes say, I don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:18:09.880)

I don't know what the answer is.

Thomas Tull (1:18:10.920)

I gotta go figure it out.

Lex Fridman (1:18:12.520)

That I can process a lot better than,

Thomas Tull (1:18:15.880)

look, I don't want you mad at me or disappointed

Lex Fridman (1:18:18.440)

or I can't handle not having success.

Lex Fridman (1:18:20.920)

So we're just gonna kick the can.

Lex Fridman (1:18:23.040)

And I think, especially in today's business environment,

Thomas Tull (1:18:26.960)

that's very, very dangerous.

Lex Fridman (1:18:29.840)

So that's a bad sign, not just because it's good

Thomas Tull (1:18:33.040)

to communicate and be honest,

Lex Fridman (1:18:35.760)

but if they're not willing to do that,

Thomas Tull (1:18:37.800)

then it goes back to the intellectual honesty.

Lex Fridman (1:18:40.280)

They're probably not also able to be brutally honest

Thomas Tull (1:18:44.760)

with themselves when they look in the mirror

Lex Fridman (1:18:46.400)

about the direction of the company.

Lex Fridman (1:18:48.400)

But look, I wasn't there, so I don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:18:53.260)

But I think if you unpack many situations

Thomas Tull (1:18:57.800)

that turned out negatively,

Lex Fridman (1:19:00.040)

most of the people, whether you're faking lab results,

Thomas Tull (1:19:03.720)

you have a biotech company,

Lex Fridman (1:19:05.600)

everybody's staring at Theranos these days.

Thomas Tull (1:19:08.440)

Do I think in a lot of cases, you're either the villain,

Lex Fridman (1:19:13.200)

like you started out saying,

Thomas Tull (1:19:14.880)

I'm gonna screw my shareholders over

Lex Fridman (1:19:17.120)

and I'm gonna be a liar, that isn't my experience.

Thomas Tull (1:19:22.760)

Most things are little incremental moves that you say,

Lex Fridman (1:19:25.960)

we're gonna get this right next week,

Lex Fridman (1:19:27.500)

but today we gotta make the presentation.

Lex Fridman (1:19:29.160)

So we're gonna just tweak things a little bit.

Lex Fridman (1:19:31.680)

That's a slippery slope, right?

Lex Fridman (1:19:34.160)

And so that's why I think from a standpoint of people,

Thomas Tull (1:19:39.640)

you wanna go into the foxhole with folks that,

Lex Fridman (1:19:43.000)

you know, understand things are gonna happen

Lex Fridman (1:19:47.480)

and I'm gonna let you know about them

Lex Fridman (1:19:49.000)

and we're gonna try to solve them together.

Lex Fridman (1:19:52.960)

And then just in terms of the idea,

Lex Fridman (1:19:55.320)

it's, I always ask like, okay,

Thomas Tull (1:19:57.720)

if this company executed the way,

Lex Fridman (1:20:00.360)

that's the other thing that always cracks me up

Thomas Tull (1:20:01.840)

about financials, whenever somebody pitches you,

Lex Fridman (1:20:05.000)

inevitably they'll say,

Thomas Tull (1:20:06.160)

our projections are really, really conservative.

Lex Fridman (1:20:09.920)

I'm still waiting for somebody to come in and say,

Thomas Tull (1:20:11.820)

look, my projections are wildly optimistic.

Lex Fridman (1:20:14.440)

We'll never hit these numbers, but anyway,

Thomas Tull (1:20:18.760)

it's, you know, if this company did what it says

Lex Fridman (1:20:22.600)

and executes and does it matter, right?

Lex Fridman (1:20:25.700)

Does it move the needle enough?

Lex Fridman (1:20:27.240)

And what are the things that uniquely position

Lex Fridman (1:20:31.400)

this company to be successful?

Lex Fridman (1:20:33.200)

And you just have to be able to answer,

Thomas Tull (1:20:35.080)

I think a number of those questions pretty crisply.

Lex Fridman (1:20:39.080)

But at the end of the day, it's still a big risk.

Lex Fridman (1:20:41.640)

So you're just trying to minimize the risk.

Lex Fridman (1:20:47.000)

Let me jump to another topic.

Thomas Tull (1:20:50.260)

You're an incredible human being

Lex Fridman (1:20:53.000)

that you're involved with this.

Thomas Tull (1:20:54.320)

Your band, Ghost Hounds, is touring with the Rolling Stones.

Lex Fridman (1:21:00.360)

So before we talk about your band, let me ask about that.

Lex Fridman (1:21:03.400)

What's that like, playing with the Rolling Stones?

Lex Fridman (1:21:07.100)

Surreal, just because they're my favorite band of all time.

Thomas Tull (1:21:15.480)

To me, the greatest rock and roll band,

Lex Fridman (1:21:17.280)

it's not even close, of all time.

Thomas Tull (1:21:19.040)

And, you know, to share the same stage,

Lex Fridman (1:21:22.520)

to be on tour and to go out

Lex Fridman (1:21:25.720)

and get that energy from the crowd, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:21:30.400)

and every night and come off stage

Lex Fridman (1:21:32.360)

and later when they go on and you hear that iconic,

Lex Fridman (1:21:34.700)

ladies and gentlemen, the Rolling Stones.

Lex Fridman (1:21:36.680)

And then it's incredible.

Lex Fridman (1:21:38.560)

And, you know, what's amazing to me about the band,

Thomas Tull (1:21:42.440)

next year will be their 60th anniversary, 60 years.

Lex Fridman (1:21:48.080)

And it's hard to be around anything for that long,

Lex Fridman (1:21:53.080)

but making music and packing stadiums.

Lex Fridman (1:21:56.560)

And what's amazing to me, they can play a two hour set

Lex Fridman (1:21:59.720)

and it's not just that, oh, that's a hit or you recognize it.

Lex Fridman (1:22:03.080)

It's like every song is an anthem, right?

Lex Fridman (1:22:06.120)

And so it's been amazing.

Lex Fridman (1:22:10.840)

We got to play with them in 2019.

Lex Fridman (1:22:12.800)

And when they ask us to do this again,

Lex Fridman (1:22:17.160)

it's just an absolute privilege.

Thomas Tull (1:22:19.880)

I asked you this offline,

Lex Fridman (1:22:21.640)

so I know you are a kind of rockstar,

Lex Fridman (1:22:24.800)

but just me, maybe I'm projecting,

Lex Fridman (1:22:27.640)

but do you get nervous, such a large audience

Lex Fridman (1:22:31.880)

with the Rolling Stones?

Lex Fridman (1:22:33.800)

It feels like there'll be a lot of pressure.

Thomas Tull (1:22:36.080)

Yeah, I mean, you definitely don't want to screw it up.

Lex Fridman (1:22:39.520)

I think our band is tight knit and all that stuff.

Lex Fridman (1:22:45.680)

And I think that the individual nervousness dissipates

Lex Fridman (1:22:50.720)

when you go out as a group and you're making music together

Lex Fridman (1:22:54.400)

and you sort of, okay, we're all in this

Lex Fridman (1:22:57.240)

and we're doing a thing, which is why even in sports,

Thomas Tull (1:23:01.680)

I always look at individual events like ice skating

Lex Fridman (1:23:04.760)

or anything where it's just you out there alone.

Lex Fridman (1:23:09.040)

And that's different than being with a team and nerve wracking.

Lex Fridman (1:23:12.960)

So I'm sure if it was me with an acoustic guitar

Thomas Tull (1:23:16.880)

just going out, it would feel different,

Lex Fridman (1:23:18.920)

but absolutely you get the right kind of butterflies,

Thomas Tull (1:23:22.720)

I would call it.

Lex Fridman (1:23:24.960)

And just the energy of playing music

Lex Fridman (1:23:28.040)

and having it be this relationship and look, I get it.

Lex Fridman (1:23:33.040)

I've been to a ton of concerts where I'm like,

Lex Fridman (1:23:36.040)

look, can we just get to the band please?

Lex Fridman (1:23:38.640)

But what's been great is just an amazing reception.

Lex Fridman (1:23:43.840)

And we have this guy named Trey Nation

Lex Fridman (1:23:46.480)

who's the lead singer who's just incredibly talented.

Thomas Tull (1:23:49.960)

I mean, he's just not only an amazing voice,

Lex Fridman (1:23:54.200)

but just has that charismatic thing.

Thomas Tull (1:23:56.520)

Yeah, he's great.

Lex Fridman (1:23:57.920)

It's fun.

Lex Fridman (1:23:58.760)

What's it feel like to play in front of a huge audience?

Lex Fridman (1:24:02.800)

What's, as a guitarist, are you lost in the music?

Thomas Tull (1:24:07.400)

Like you almost don't feel the audience.

Lex Fridman (1:24:10.600)

Does it add extra energy?

Lex Fridman (1:24:12.320)

Does it add extra anxiety?

Lex Fridman (1:24:14.360)

What does it feel like?

Thomas Tull (1:24:17.320)

You know, stadiums are interesting

Lex Fridman (1:24:19.480)

just because it's so big and cavernous.

Lex Fridman (1:24:22.380)

And because you want to protect your ears.

Lex Fridman (1:24:24.600)

So we use an in ear system

Lex Fridman (1:24:27.240)

so that you are a little disconnected from the crowd.

Lex Fridman (1:24:30.600)

Because if you're playing that loud

Lex Fridman (1:24:32.180)

and you're standing in front of your amps

Lex Fridman (1:24:33.400)

without ear protection, that's bad.

Lex Fridman (1:24:36.440)

How are you monitoring the sound?

Lex Fridman (1:24:38.200)

The in ear stuff, is that producing sound

Lex Fridman (1:24:40.520)

or is it strictly ear plugs?

Lex Fridman (1:24:41.920)

No, it's producing the sound.

Lex Fridman (1:24:43.160)

So it's like putting ear pods in and listening to a song

Lex Fridman (1:24:47.520)

and you're playing to it, right?

Thomas Tull (1:24:48.840)

It's just us playing, but it protects your ears.

Lex Fridman (1:24:54.800)

But the energy from the crowd,

Thomas Tull (1:24:58.000)

when they get going and get into it,

Lex Fridman (1:25:00.640)

which Knock On Wood so far has been amazing,

Thomas Tull (1:25:04.640)

there's nothing like it.

Lex Fridman (1:25:06.440)

I mean, it's just this bi directional thing that happens.

Lex Fridman (1:25:12.080)

And music and sports were kind of my first loves.

Lex Fridman (1:25:18.680)

And yeah, it's very difficult to describe,

Thomas Tull (1:25:23.680)

I think accurately, because it's like no other feeling.

Lex Fridman (1:25:31.260)

Musically, how is it different than playing in a garage

Lex Fridman (1:25:35.500)

with the band by yourself practicing?

Lex Fridman (1:25:38.260)

Like, do you feel like you're creating something different

Thomas Tull (1:25:42.500)

when you got the guitar and the amp

Lex Fridman (1:25:47.860)

and just the sound dissipating out

Lex Fridman (1:25:50.180)

and everybody's listening, is that?

Lex Fridman (1:25:52.840)

It's, listen, the first time we did it

Lex Fridman (1:25:55.660)

and there's nobody in the stadium,

Lex Fridman (1:25:57.140)

first time I ever played in the stadium.

Lex Fridman (1:25:59.220)

And I'm just like, I'm out there in front

Lex Fridman (1:26:03.300)

and just hitting different chords

Lex Fridman (1:26:05.340)

and playing different licks.

Lex Fridman (1:26:06.440)

And I'm like, it's like I won a contest

Lex Fridman (1:26:09.220)

and I get to do this.

Lex Fridman (1:26:11.820)

But what's different about it,

Lex Fridman (1:26:15.040)

and each venue is different.

Lex Fridman (1:26:16.300)

So if you, we went on the road with ZZ Top a few years ago,

Thomas Tull (1:26:21.300)

which was incredible.

Lex Fridman (1:26:22.580)

Love Billy Gibbons, he's a Texan.

Thomas Tull (1:26:25.660)

Incredible person and guitar player.

Lex Fridman (1:26:28.100)

But when you're playing in like five to 7,000 seats,

Thomas Tull (1:26:32.520)

it's really, I mean, it's, you're right there with them,

Lex Fridman (1:26:36.420)

with the crowd.

Lex Fridman (1:26:37.340)

And then when you play in an arena,

Lex Fridman (1:26:40.900)

we toured with Bob Seger on his last tour, which was cool.

Thomas Tull (1:26:44.980)

Played some shows with him.

Lex Fridman (1:26:47.100)

And again, the arena, like they're all kind of packed

Thomas Tull (1:26:50.220)

on top of you.

Lex Fridman (1:26:51.820)

And it's super loud, which was cool.

Thomas Tull (1:26:55.460)

Meaning the crowd is,

Lex Fridman (1:26:56.620)

stadiums is a completely different animal.

Lex Fridman (1:26:59.940)

And it's just a completely different experience.

Lex Fridman (1:27:05.400)

Do you enjoy it versus like a smaller room?

Thomas Tull (1:27:09.380)

What, as a guitarist, as a musician,

Lex Fridman (1:27:13.380)

what's your favorite like room to play of the size?

Thomas Tull (1:27:16.420)

Any room that'll have me.

Lex Fridman (1:27:17.860)

You know, look, I think arenas are the perfect blend.

Thomas Tull (1:27:23.720)

If I had to say, because it's loud and, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:27:26.560)

20, 30,000 people, but like right up, right up on you.

Thomas Tull (1:27:31.120)

A stadium, look, playing the stadiums with the Rolling

Lex Fridman (1:27:36.680)

Stones, it just is gonna go on the head marker somewhere

Thomas Tull (1:27:40.120)

is one of the more, you know, I say this,

Lex Fridman (1:27:42.680)

and I really mean it.

Thomas Tull (1:27:43.680)

My life is like a punked episode that just hasn't,

Lex Fridman (1:27:47.160)

no one's burst in yet, but yeah,

Thomas Tull (1:27:51.560)

it's as cool as you think it is.

Lex Fridman (1:27:53.300)

So 60 years, how do you think Mick Jagger still got it?

Lex Fridman (1:27:58.560)

How do you explain it?

Lex Fridman (1:27:59.560)

I gotta tell you something.

Thomas Tull (1:28:00.520)

I mean, the funny thing is whatever,

Lex Fridman (1:28:04.760)

wherever there is excellence,

Lex Fridman (1:28:06.440)

people wanna know how'd you do it, right?

Lex Fridman (1:28:09.680)

What's the secret?

Thomas Tull (1:28:12.240)

Not only is Mick Jagger, and I think the songs

Lex Fridman (1:28:15.200)

that Keith Richards and Mick Jagger wrote together,

Thomas Tull (1:28:17.960)

if you go back and listen to the lyrics,

Lex Fridman (1:28:21.440)

it's just incredibly poignant,

Lex Fridman (1:28:23.920)

and I'm just a huge Stones fan, so,

Lex Fridman (1:28:27.360)

but he works out like a maniac, right?

Lex Fridman (1:28:32.400)

And it's that 10,000 hours thing,

Lex Fridman (1:28:35.540)

and it's that, hey, maybe I don't feel my best today,

Lex Fridman (1:28:38.560)

but I'm gonna get up and do my routine and work out

Lex Fridman (1:28:41.920)

so that at his age, which, I mean,

Thomas Tull (1:28:47.000)

you can look at people at different ages chronologically

Lex Fridman (1:28:51.000)

that are, maybe we're both at this age,

Lex Fridman (1:28:54.320)

but I'm a lot older than you are, and vice versa.

Lex Fridman (1:28:57.820)

And he just, I think it's the combination of raw talent

Lex Fridman (1:29:02.840)

and the ability, and he's very smart, right?

Lex Fridman (1:29:06.040)

Like he understands how to have interaction with a crowd

Lex Fridman (1:29:10.480)

and hold them in the palm of his hand

Lex Fridman (1:29:11.960)

and be an entertainer, but then on top of that,

Thomas Tull (1:29:15.120)

the reason he can at this age run around stadiums

Lex Fridman (1:29:19.080)

and be just as energetic is he puts the work in.

Lex Fridman (1:29:22.680)

And that's one thing, step that I think

Lex Fridman (1:29:24.640)

a lot of people miss sometimes,

Thomas Tull (1:29:26.580)

where they want that magic trick,

Lex Fridman (1:29:28.000)

they wanna know what's the shortcut.

Thomas Tull (1:29:30.280)

Most of the time, the answer is there's no shortcut.

Lex Fridman (1:29:32.800)

Yeah, you have to work hard on the way there

Lex Fridman (1:29:36.200)

and work hard to stay on top.

Lex Fridman (1:29:39.200)

That's it.

Lex Fridman (1:29:40.040)

And sometimes it's not even like work hard,

Lex Fridman (1:29:41.840)

it's just like be a professional,

Thomas Tull (1:29:45.200)

which that involves, in his case, at his age,

Lex Fridman (1:29:49.000)

with the amount of stuff you have to do on stage

Lex Fridman (1:29:51.720)

and the way he does it.

Lex Fridman (1:29:53.080)

For two hours.

Thomas Tull (1:29:53.920)

You have, this is a professional athlete.

Lex Fridman (1:29:58.240)

A professional athlete that has to do things

Thomas Tull (1:30:01.560)

that are probably designed for 20 year olds

Lex Fridman (1:30:04.240)

and 30 year olds has to do it at an older age,

Lex Fridman (1:30:06.880)

which means what do you have to do?

Lex Fridman (1:30:08.720)

Well, he probably has a whole physical routine

Thomas Tull (1:30:11.320)

he has to do.

Lex Fridman (1:30:12.440)

Diet, the whole thing.

Lex Fridman (1:30:13.800)

And it's hard, look, if you wanna do great things,

Lex Fridman (1:30:17.200)

you probably have to do hard things to get there.

Thomas Tull (1:30:20.960)

I'm not gonna make you pick,

Lex Fridman (1:30:22.960)

just stick on the stones for one more minute.

Lex Fridman (1:30:26.720)

But what are some great Rolling Stones songs

Lex Fridman (1:30:31.800)

that were impactful to you, lyrically, musically,

Thomas Tull (1:30:36.040)

maybe something you like playing, like air guitar.

Lex Fridman (1:30:41.320)

Oh, sure.

Thomas Tull (1:30:42.320)

I don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:30:43.840)

Probably my favorites, I love Sympathy for the Devil.

Thomas Tull (1:30:47.080)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:30:47.920)

It's a very, I don't know, sort of Faustian.

Thomas Tull (1:30:51.000)

I love the lyrics.

Lex Fridman (1:30:52.360)

I love how the, almost a voodoo beat

Thomas Tull (1:30:55.080)

just kind of builds throughout the song.

Lex Fridman (1:30:58.460)

That's always been one of my favorites.

Lex Fridman (1:31:00.320)

So in that song, he never mentions Devil, does he?

Lex Fridman (1:31:02.980)

No, wait, sorry.

Thomas Tull (1:31:04.020)

Like, you know my name.

Lex Fridman (1:31:07.580)

Yeah.

Thomas Tull (1:31:08.420)

There's like a flirtation going on in the lyrics.

Lex Fridman (1:31:11.180)

It's kind of interesting.

Thomas Tull (1:31:12.020)

Yeah, here's all the trouble I've caused along the way

Lex Fridman (1:31:15.180)

with you humans.

Lex Fridman (1:31:16.940)

And I just think it's really, really great.

Lex Fridman (1:31:18.820)

And musically, it builds really nicely.

Thomas Tull (1:31:20.700)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:31:21.540)

And it's like both fun and dark.

Thomas Tull (1:31:23.420)

It's cool.

Lex Fridman (1:31:24.600)

It's a,

Thomas Tull (1:31:29.180)

there's a playful nature to it.

Lex Fridman (1:31:30.980)

It's, that's very stones.

Thomas Tull (1:31:33.660)

The only, they can pull it off

Lex Fridman (1:31:34.900)

because it's like playful,

Lex Fridman (1:31:36.300)

but it's also like dark and dangerous, dangerous, dangerous.

Lex Fridman (1:31:39.860)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:31:40.700)

And Gimme Shelter is just, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:31:44.300)

and to this day, when I listen to the studio version

Lex Fridman (1:31:48.380)

and Mary Clayton just comes on and sings that epic,

Lex Fridman (1:31:53.380)

iconic part.

Lex Fridman (1:31:55.500)

And there's a documentary that was done

Lex Fridman (1:31:58.820)

about backup singers, phenomenal.

Lex Fridman (1:32:02.560)

And it tells the story of that moment

Lex Fridman (1:32:06.820)

in that song with Mary Clayton.

Lex Fridman (1:32:08.220)

And it's just her voice and the way it unfolded,

Lex Fridman (1:32:13.300)

they got her out of bed at like 10 o clock at night in LA.

Lex Fridman (1:32:15.740)

And she's like the Rolling Stones,

Lex Fridman (1:32:17.820)

and went in and just killed it.

Lex Fridman (1:32:20.540)

And I can't sing at all.

Lex Fridman (1:32:23.140)

I'm by ordinance not allowed around a microphone.

Lex Fridman (1:32:26.780)

So I'm always in awe when someone can sing like that.

Lex Fridman (1:32:32.980)

But, you know, those are,

Thomas Tull (1:32:35.260)

those are some of my favorite Rolling Stones songs

Lex Fridman (1:32:39.180)

and Painted Black's awesome.

Thomas Tull (1:32:41.480)

I mean, I could go on and on.

Lex Fridman (1:32:42.660)

Yeah, Painted Black is great.

Thomas Tull (1:32:44.020)

Again, a song that builds as bad as,

Lex Fridman (1:32:45.980)

I mean, it defines a whole generation.

Lex Fridman (1:32:48.340)

What made you pick up a guitar?

Lex Fridman (1:32:49.580)

What made you fall in love with the guitar?

Lex Fridman (1:32:52.580)

It's just the coolest instrument, right?

Lex Fridman (1:32:55.060)

I mean, when you watched back then,

Lex Fridman (1:32:59.220)

and I was kind of an old soul.

Lex Fridman (1:33:01.640)

I was listening at a fairly young age to Muddy Waters,

Thomas Tull (1:33:08.180)

Robert Johnson, Lightning Hopkins, BB King,

Lex Fridman (1:33:11.860)

and just the soulfulness.

Thomas Tull (1:33:14.860)

Thrills gone.

Lex Fridman (1:33:16.020)

Oh my, I mean, BB plays five notes and just kills it

Lex Fridman (1:33:21.820)

and the emotion that it evokes.

Lex Fridman (1:33:24.100)

So I just was just in awe of the instrument.

Lex Fridman (1:33:29.380)

And I also, there's always somebody around who's a musician

Lex Fridman (1:33:36.100)

that just picks the instrument up and can play, right?

Lex Fridman (1:33:39.340)

And they're just so talented at it.

Lex Fridman (1:33:41.260)

And they can just listen to a record and play it.

Thomas Tull (1:33:43.940)

That was never me.

Lex Fridman (1:33:45.780)

I never took formal lessons.

Thomas Tull (1:33:47.940)

I had to grind to just make it sound

Lex Fridman (1:33:52.020)

like I wanted it to sound.

Lex Fridman (1:33:54.260)

So both technically and ear, everything was hard work.

Lex Fridman (1:33:58.180)

Yeah, I mean, I could hear it and what they call,

Thomas Tull (1:34:02.980)

you know, you play.

Lex Fridman (1:34:04.380)

So my right hand, the rhythm side of it is,

Thomas Tull (1:34:09.760)

that's probably if I have anything, my strength.

Lex Fridman (1:34:13.180)

But there's something pretty amazing that happens

Thomas Tull (1:34:18.100)

when you get together with other people and play a song

Lex Fridman (1:34:22.500)

in that moment where it hits the pocket

Lex Fridman (1:34:25.940)

and you all kind of know it.

Lex Fridman (1:34:27.940)

And it's just such a cool feeling.

Lex Fridman (1:34:31.140)

And it was interesting growing up because I was,

Lex Fridman (1:34:34.940)

again, I always had eclectic interests.

Lex Fridman (1:34:36.620)

So I loved math and physics and science.

Lex Fridman (1:34:38.780)

So I had those friends and I was an athlete

Lex Fridman (1:34:41.100)

and played football and baseball and basketball.

Lex Fridman (1:34:43.080)

So I had my jock friends, and then I had my music friends

Lex Fridman (1:34:47.780)

and so it was just kind of that.

Lex Fridman (1:34:51.620)

And so when I was still living in Los Angeles

Lex Fridman (1:34:55.760)

and had Legendary, I just missed playing.

Lex Fridman (1:35:01.620)

And so I put this band together

Lex Fridman (1:35:04.540)

and called it the Ghost Hounds because again,

Lex Fridman (1:35:08.160)

huge Robert Johnson fan and that legend of Robert Johnson

Thomas Tull (1:35:13.060)

selling his soul at the crossroads

Lex Fridman (1:35:15.220)

in exchange for his musical talent.

Lex Fridman (1:35:17.100)

And you guys have that in one of the videos.

Lex Fridman (1:35:18.820)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Thomas Tull (1:35:19.660)

Such a cool video.

Lex Fridman (1:35:20.500)

Exactly, so I just thought that's such cool lore.

Thomas Tull (1:35:26.740)

I just love the blues.

Lex Fridman (1:35:28.340)

So Robert Johnson would often talk about hellhounds

Thomas Tull (1:35:32.100)

on his trail.

Lex Fridman (1:35:33.460)

And so I always just thought, huh, what about ghost towns?

Lex Fridman (1:35:37.580)

So I wish it were a more clever, deeper story,

Lex Fridman (1:35:41.500)

but that's about it for the name.

Thomas Tull (1:35:43.780)

That's pretty deep, Robert Johnson's incredible.

Lex Fridman (1:35:45.780)

But you also talk about that you connect

Thomas Tull (1:35:48.340)

to the storytelling of blues.

Lex Fridman (1:35:50.860)

So what makes a good story in a song?

Lex Fridman (1:35:53.740)

Like what aspect of storytelling connects with you in song?

Lex Fridman (1:35:57.840)

So I'm a big lyrics guy too.

Thomas Tull (1:35:59.100)

I love like deep lyric people like Tom Waits

Lex Fridman (1:36:03.820)

and like people that are like Leonard Cohen,

Thomas Tull (1:36:07.100)

like even Bob Dylan, they're like obviously, it's poetry.

Lex Fridman (1:36:12.700)

And then there's some people like the Rolling Stones there.

Thomas Tull (1:36:15.500)

It's like seemingly simpler,

Lex Fridman (1:36:18.220)

but it's still so much more to it.

Thomas Tull (1:36:20.940)

It's like less is often more.

Lex Fridman (1:36:23.700)

It still tells a strong story.

Thomas Tull (1:36:25.580)

Yeah, and there's certain people

Lex Fridman (1:36:27.740)

and Jagger and Mick Jagger and Keith Richards

Thomas Tull (1:36:30.340)

are in this boat.

Lex Fridman (1:36:31.180)

Billy Gibbons is in this boat.

Thomas Tull (1:36:32.860)

They just say things in a certain way

Lex Fridman (1:36:35.660)

that are just cool, right?

Thomas Tull (1:36:37.220)

It's just, and so I write our music and lyrics.

Lex Fridman (1:36:42.220)

I have to tell a story.

Thomas Tull (1:36:44.980)

I have to know the characters in the song.

Lex Fridman (1:36:46.700)

I'm not good at just writing some rhymes

Lex Fridman (1:36:49.460)

and having it match up to the right key and the right music.

Lex Fridman (1:36:52.740)

I have to understand like, that's just me.

Lex Fridman (1:36:56.540)

And so I think that, look,

Lex Fridman (1:36:59.460)

if you have three or four minutes to tell a story,

Thomas Tull (1:37:02.340)

you have to be more efficient with your use of language.

Lex Fridman (1:37:07.340)

And you have to understand what you're building to it

Thomas Tull (1:37:10.460)

understand what you're building to, if anything,

Lex Fridman (1:37:12.820)

and evoke emotion.

Lex Fridman (1:37:15.420)

And hopefully for those three minutes,

Lex Fridman (1:37:18.580)

get the listener to understand

Thomas Tull (1:37:21.620)

not only the point of the song,

Lex Fridman (1:37:22.860)

but where you're coming from

Lex Fridman (1:37:24.500)

and to make you feel a certain way.

Lex Fridman (1:37:28.260)

There's a song that the audience has seemed to like a lot

Thomas Tull (1:37:31.780)

on the new album called Good Old Days.

Lex Fridman (1:37:34.340)

And I wrote that because especially during COVID

Lex Fridman (1:37:38.380)

and reflecting on what normalcy looks like

Lex Fridman (1:37:42.180)

and what happens when you're cut off,

Thomas Tull (1:37:46.220)

I just was kind of taken with this idea of

Lex Fridman (1:37:50.100)

that when you sit around and reminisce with friends,

Thomas Tull (1:37:53.660)

oftentimes it's not just like some big event happened.

Lex Fridman (1:37:59.300)

It's, remember that summer,

Thomas Tull (1:38:00.900)

we'd go up to the lake all the time

Lex Fridman (1:38:03.020)

and it's who you were with.

Lex Fridman (1:38:05.300)

And at the time, it probably seemed pretty pedestrian.

Lex Fridman (1:38:09.540)

It just seemed like kind of a normal day,

Lex Fridman (1:38:12.100)

but it was the company you were keeping.

Lex Fridman (1:38:13.980)

It was the time in your life.

Thomas Tull (1:38:15.740)

It was whatever it was.

Lex Fridman (1:38:17.860)

And I just kind of struck me that right now

Thomas Tull (1:38:21.460)

we're doing stuff that you're gonna reminisce about later

Lex Fridman (1:38:24.180)

that seems kind of ordinary to be like,

Thomas Tull (1:38:26.540)

man, that was such a great time.

Lex Fridman (1:38:29.060)

So the idea is be in the moment and all that stuff.

Lex Fridman (1:38:31.540)

But these are the good old days.

Lex Fridman (1:38:34.460)

And enjoy it and soak it in

Lex Fridman (1:38:37.180)

and kind of be present for it.

Lex Fridman (1:38:39.420)

Yeah, it's a great perspective to take on the present

Thomas Tull (1:38:42.340)

because we are in the thing that we'll remember.

Lex Fridman (1:38:44.340)

We're living through the thing we'll remember.

Lex Fridman (1:38:46.180)

And sometimes the things we'll remember

Lex Fridman (1:38:47.660)

is the simple stuff, the little stuff.

Thomas Tull (1:38:52.620)

Outside of Keith Richards,

Lex Fridman (1:38:55.700)

who is the greatest, ridiculous question,

Lex Fridman (1:38:58.580)

but just indulge me,

Lex Fridman (1:39:00.140)

who is the greatest blues guitarist of all time,

Lex Fridman (1:39:03.140)

rock guitarist of all time?

Lex Fridman (1:39:05.660)

Well, you got a little bit of a hybrid

Lex Fridman (1:39:07.180)

with Jimi Hendrix, right?

Lex Fridman (1:39:08.460)

Because he played the blues and he played rock and roll.

Lex Fridman (1:39:11.380)

So I think most guitarists would say

Lex Fridman (1:39:14.540)

Jimi Hendrix was pretty ridiculous.

Thomas Tull (1:39:17.900)

That probably for me,

Lex Fridman (1:39:19.100)

I'm a huge, huge, huge Hendrix fan to play.

Thomas Tull (1:39:21.660)

He can't, I mean, even to this day,

Lex Fridman (1:39:24.740)

I don't care, technology, pedals, whatever,

Thomas Tull (1:39:27.180)

he just somehow fused with the instrument.

Lex Fridman (1:39:31.460)

I can't be sitting here in Austin, Texas

Thomas Tull (1:39:34.660)

without mentioning one of the great guitar players

Lex Fridman (1:39:37.900)

of all time, Stevie Ray Vaughn.

Thomas Tull (1:39:40.220)

See, that's how, I know you're like a rock star.

Lex Fridman (1:39:42.260)

You're sucking up to the audience.

Thomas Tull (1:39:43.780)

Well, no, you have listeners all over the place,

Lex Fridman (1:39:47.460)

but Stevie Ray Vaughn is another one of those.

Thomas Tull (1:39:51.020)

That is incredible.

Lex Fridman (1:39:51.860)

Just blows me away.

Lex Fridman (1:39:55.180)

And then with the older guys,

Lex Fridman (1:39:57.100)

BB King, Hubert Sumlin, Clapton.

Thomas Tull (1:40:01.020)

I saw him on his last tour

Lex Fridman (1:40:06.340)

and just walked out on my,

Thomas Tull (1:40:09.900)

just like unbelievable how he still sounds.

Lex Fridman (1:40:14.660)

And both electric and acoustic, just so strange.

Thomas Tull (1:40:18.580)

Absolute master.

Lex Fridman (1:40:20.900)

And the greatest storyteller, you mentioned Bob Seger.

Thomas Tull (1:40:23.980)

That's an interesting one.

Lex Fridman (1:40:26.260)

He almost doesn't get enough credit, I feel like,

Thomas Tull (1:40:30.620)

for how great he is.

Lex Fridman (1:40:31.500)

Obviously he's super famous, but.

Thomas Tull (1:40:33.340)

No, he's, and his voice.

Lex Fridman (1:40:36.500)

I also, I had the privilege of getting friendly

Thomas Tull (1:40:39.180)

with John Fogerty, you know, John Fogerty and CCR fame.

Lex Fridman (1:40:43.580)

And he's another one that's just the way he phrases things.

Lex Fridman (1:40:48.100)

And you just look at the catalog of stuff he wrote.

Lex Fridman (1:40:52.780)

Amazing talent.

Thomas Tull (1:40:54.900)

I read Bruce Springsteen's book

Lex Fridman (1:40:59.580)

and was, I'm a fan, but after reading the book,

Thomas Tull (1:41:02.860)

it was really, you go back and listen to his lyrics

Lex Fridman (1:41:05.820)

and the way he pours himself out is pretty incredible.

Lex Fridman (1:41:13.500)

And then again, with the old blues guys,

Lex Fridman (1:41:17.420)

I just think the emotion they could get out of

Lex Fridman (1:41:20.660)

playing like, staying on the one, right?

Lex Fridman (1:41:23.060)

Just playing the same rhythm.

Thomas Tull (1:41:25.180)

John Lee Hooker.

Lex Fridman (1:41:27.160)

You listen to Manish Boy by Muddy Waters

Lex Fridman (1:41:31.180)

and it's just, there's something so,

Lex Fridman (1:41:36.140)

it just draws me in every time.

Lex Fridman (1:41:38.160)

And the emotion they're able to get out of things.

Lex Fridman (1:41:42.040)

And I'm also a huge Chuck Berry fan.

Thomas Tull (1:41:44.420)

I just think that sound is, I love it.

Lex Fridman (1:41:48.900)

Do you know how to play Johnny B. Goode?

Thomas Tull (1:41:51.080)

I do.

Lex Fridman (1:41:53.780)

That's good.

Thomas Tull (1:41:55.000)

Maybe one of the great moments, at least of my childhood,

Lex Fridman (1:41:59.020)

was back to the future and watching Michael J. Fox plug in

Lex Fridman (1:42:06.060)

and then at the end, play at the dance

Lex Fridman (1:42:09.340)

to save his parents with Johnny B. Goode, pretty awesome.

Thomas Tull (1:42:11.940)

Yeah, the guitar is so much more than a musical instrument.

Lex Fridman (1:42:14.780)

It feels like, it's like the,

Thomas Tull (1:42:17.460)

in the 20th century, it's like the car.

Lex Fridman (1:42:20.420)

Like it defines so much of Hollywood,

Lex Fridman (1:42:22.980)

so much of a generation of what it means to be,

Lex Fridman (1:42:26.960)

I don't know, what it means to be a man,

Lex Fridman (1:42:28.800)

what it means to be a human in America.

Lex Fridman (1:42:31.100)

It's fascinating.

Thomas Tull (1:42:32.660)

Emblematic to me of a certain type of music.

Lex Fridman (1:42:37.140)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:42:37.980)

And that's, I made a documentary years ago

Lex Fridman (1:42:40.460)

called It Might Get Loud with Jimmy Page, The Edge.

Thomas Tull (1:42:43.820)

I highly recommend that everybody watch that documentary.

Lex Fridman (1:42:46.540)

It's an incredible celebration of the guitar.

Thomas Tull (1:42:48.980)

Yeah, it says Jimmy Page, Jack White from White Stripes.

Lex Fridman (1:42:53.540)

The Edge.

Lex Fridman (1:42:54.380)

And The Edge from U2.

Lex Fridman (1:42:56.500)

Okay, all right.

Thomas Tull (1:42:57.340)

Well, now you have to tell the story of that one

Lex Fridman (1:42:59.260)

because how the heck did that all come together?

Thomas Tull (1:43:02.460)

Because it's so fascinating,

Lex Fridman (1:43:03.540)

such different musicians all coming together,

Thomas Tull (1:43:07.360)

talking about their story,

Lex Fridman (1:43:09.780)

talking about how they approach the music

Lex Fridman (1:43:11.520)

and also playing together a little bit

Lex Fridman (1:43:13.760)

in this casual kind of setting.

Thomas Tull (1:43:15.380)

Well, look, one day I came downstairs

Lex Fridman (1:43:18.820)

and the Rolling Stone magazine is sitting there

Lex Fridman (1:43:21.060)

and it was the 50 top guitarists of all time, their list.

Lex Fridman (1:43:25.900)

And then I had some other financial report with video games

Lex Fridman (1:43:29.500)

and the top video game at the time was Guitar Hero, right?

Lex Fridman (1:43:32.940)

And then there was a third thing, I can't recall it,

Lex Fridman (1:43:35.220)

but I just, and I said to myself,

Lex Fridman (1:43:37.340)

what is it about the guitar that is so central

Lex Fridman (1:43:42.580)

to the rock and roll, whatever you wanna call it?

Lex Fridman (1:43:45.020)

Like, why is that the symbol?

Lex Fridman (1:43:46.940)

And I said to myself, I wanna ask Jimmy Page

Lex Fridman (1:43:52.060)

why he picked up the guitar,

Lex Fridman (1:43:54.220)

because he's Jimmy Page, right?

Lex Fridman (1:43:56.160)

And so I called a friend of mine, Davis Guggenheim,

Thomas Tull (1:44:00.520)

who had directed Inconvenient Truth,

Lex Fridman (1:44:02.580)

and I think still is,

Lex Fridman (1:44:03.680)

but at the time was the biggest documentary ever.

Lex Fridman (1:44:06.780)

And I called Davis and I said, look, I have this idea.

Thomas Tull (1:44:09.100)

I wanna make this movie about the guitar,

Lex Fridman (1:44:12.960)

about different eras and styles and whatever,

Lex Fridman (1:44:15.520)

but I've never made a documentary.

Lex Fridman (1:44:16.980)

I don't know how to do that.

Lex Fridman (1:44:18.140)

So I was just looking for advice.

Lex Fridman (1:44:20.420)

And thankfully, because he's one

Thomas Tull (1:44:24.160)

of the best documentarians ever, Davis is like,

Lex Fridman (1:44:27.920)

you know what, I can't get this out of my head.

Thomas Tull (1:44:29.540)

I'll direct it, which was amazing.

Lex Fridman (1:44:32.500)

And we wrote three names down

Thomas Tull (1:44:34.540)

that represented different eras and different styles.

Lex Fridman (1:44:38.220)

Rarely do you get, you go three for three,

Lex Fridman (1:44:41.760)

but it was those three guys.

Lex Fridman (1:44:44.740)

And it was just such a incredible experience

Thomas Tull (1:44:49.940)

to sit there and get to know Jimmy Page.

Lex Fridman (1:44:53.580)

You know, I mean, it was like,

Lex Fridman (1:44:55.060)

and he was like Gandalf, man.

Lex Fridman (1:44:57.580)

He was like always Jimmy Page.

Thomas Tull (1:45:00.340)

And...

Lex Fridman (1:45:02.060)

That was so cool to see him.

Thomas Tull (1:45:03.780)

Gandalf was, there's like a wisdom,

Lex Fridman (1:45:06.700)

there's a calmness to him compared

Thomas Tull (1:45:08.820)

to like the restlessness of Jack White.

Lex Fridman (1:45:12.620)

Like the, I mean, that combination was just fascinating.

Thomas Tull (1:45:16.780)

It was one of the coolest experiences ever.

Lex Fridman (1:45:19.780)

And one of the things, there was a moment

Thomas Tull (1:45:22.140)

where Jimmy, he was going through his guitar case

Lex Fridman (1:45:26.240)

and he had the double neck from stairway to heaven

Lex Fridman (1:45:28.180)

and he handed it to me and I was like, mm hmm.

Lex Fridman (1:45:32.120)

I mean, it's like somebody handing you X caliber or something.

Thomas Tull (1:45:36.940)

Amazing experience.

Lex Fridman (1:45:38.140)

And The Edge, one of the kindest human beings

Thomas Tull (1:45:40.980)

you'll ever meet in your life.

Lex Fridman (1:45:42.660)

Just an amazing person.

Lex Fridman (1:45:44.900)

And I think he hit it right on the head with Jack

Lex Fridman (1:45:47.060)

is he's got that energy, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:45:49.820)

and constantly pushing himself.

Lex Fridman (1:45:52.240)

But it's hard to believe it's been, I think 10 or 11

Thomas Tull (1:45:55.380)

or maybe even 12 years since it came out, but.

Lex Fridman (1:45:58.100)

After watching it, I realized like how much it was needed.

Lex Fridman (1:46:02.700)

And I was almost surprised it didn't already exist.

Lex Fridman (1:46:07.340)

It was like, yeah, the guitar wasn't quite celebrated

Thomas Tull (1:46:12.300)

like explicitly.

Lex Fridman (1:46:13.180)

We almost didn't acknowledge it.

Lex Fridman (1:46:15.700)

How important it was culturally.

Lex Fridman (1:46:17.660)

It's kind of amazing.

Lex Fridman (1:46:18.500)

And the way it closed from the song, the.

Lex Fridman (1:46:20.540)

The Wait.

Thomas Tull (1:46:21.380)

It was called The Wait, yeah, by the band.

Lex Fridman (1:46:23.400)

Yeah. Yeah.

Thomas Tull (1:46:24.660)

That's because they didn't want to go home.

Lex Fridman (1:46:26.860)

We were shooting on a Warner Brothers soundstage

Thomas Tull (1:46:30.000)

for three days when we called it The Summit

Lex Fridman (1:46:32.020)

where the three of them came together.

Lex Fridman (1:46:34.300)

And the two things I'll never forget

Lex Fridman (1:46:36.420)

is when Jimmy starts to play the riff

Thomas Tull (1:46:39.700)

from Whole Lotta Love.

Lex Fridman (1:46:40.820)

Yeah.

Thomas Tull (1:46:41.900)

Edge and Jack ceased to be rock, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:46:46.420)

rock gods or whatever,

Lex Fridman (1:46:47.620)

and had the same 15 year old kid feeling that I did.

Lex Fridman (1:46:51.620)

You could see in their face.

Lex Fridman (1:46:53.340)

And then at the end, they're like, hey, can we play?

Lex Fridman (1:46:55.620)

We just want to, we don't want to go.

Lex Fridman (1:46:57.040)

Can we just play something acoustically?

Lex Fridman (1:46:59.580)

So we printed out the lyrics.

Thomas Tull (1:47:00.860)

That's what they wanted to play.

Lex Fridman (1:47:01.960)

And they just sat there and sat on those couches

Lex Fridman (1:47:05.420)

and just.

Lex Fridman (1:47:06.540)

Such a good way to end.

Thomas Tull (1:47:07.540)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:47:08.380)

Incredible.

Lex Fridman (1:47:09.400)

What's your guitar rig setup like?

Lex Fridman (1:47:12.460)

You have a few guitars.

Thomas Tull (1:47:15.340)

First, let's just put on the line.

Lex Fridman (1:47:17.540)

So what's better, Les Paul or Strat?

Thomas Tull (1:47:21.820)

Well, I'm not going to get into what's better

Lex Fridman (1:47:24.420)

because I'm sure that'll start a flood of whatever.

Thomas Tull (1:47:26.340)

For me.

Lex Fridman (1:47:27.840)

I'm going to say it's Strat.

Thomas Tull (1:47:29.180)

All right.

Lex Fridman (1:47:30.020)

I'm a Les Paul.

Thomas Tull (1:47:31.980)

My main instrument is a Les Paul.

Lex Fridman (1:47:34.700)

But I, okay, let me just put it on the table.

Thomas Tull (1:47:36.700)

I'm speaking as somebody who literally,

Lex Fridman (1:47:39.020)

I don't think I've ever actually strummed a chord

Thomas Tull (1:47:41.660)

on a Les Paul.

Lex Fridman (1:47:42.500)

So I've been, maybe I'm uninitiated.

Thomas Tull (1:47:45.340)

Exactly.

Lex Fridman (1:47:46.180)

So I don't, I don't speak from experience,

Lex Fridman (1:47:47.980)

but it's probably because of Hendrix

Lex Fridman (1:47:50.500)

is so deeply influenced by Hendrix

Thomas Tull (1:47:52.200)

that I just kind of follow in his footsteps

Lex Fridman (1:47:55.220)

and clap them and so on.

Thomas Tull (1:47:56.640)

The amazing thing to me is if you look back at Leo Fender

Lex Fridman (1:48:01.100)

and what the Gibson Guitar Company and Les Paul did

Thomas Tull (1:48:03.620)

in the fifties, those are still the shapes

Lex Fridman (1:48:07.460)

and the perfect thing today, right?

Thomas Tull (1:48:09.700)

The Strat and the Telecaster and the Les Paul.

Lex Fridman (1:48:12.940)

And it's, they got it right way back, way back then.

Lex Fridman (1:48:15.660)

So I have my main guitar, you got to name your guitar.

Lex Fridman (1:48:21.300)

So my main guitar is named Hazel and it's a 59 Les Paul.

Lex Fridman (1:48:26.300)

And there's something magical in that year,

Lex Fridman (1:48:31.020)

like a Stradivarius and they're just,

Thomas Tull (1:48:34.160)

there's something different about them.

Lex Fridman (1:48:36.900)

So I play that and then I play it through sort of

Thomas Tull (1:48:41.980)

my main rig is either a 59 Fender Twin or a 65 Marshall.

Lex Fridman (1:48:50.540)

And then when we're on the road now,

Thomas Tull (1:48:52.880)

cause when you use older vintage stuff,

Lex Fridman (1:48:54.900)

you just got to be super careful with the tubes

Lex Fridman (1:48:56.980)

and everything, it has to be reliable.

Lex Fridman (1:48:58.760)

So very nicely, the guys from Two Rock

Thomas Tull (1:49:01.340)

sent me some of their amps and they're really,

Lex Fridman (1:49:03.660)

cause I don't use any new stuff,

Lex Fridman (1:49:05.500)

but the Two Rock stuff is pretty great.

Lex Fridman (1:49:07.480)

So that's actually what I'm using.

Thomas Tull (1:49:08.320)

Oh, it gets close to the sound that you like

Lex Fridman (1:49:11.120)

with the Marshall.

Thomas Tull (1:49:11.960)

Yeah, it's new and reliable.

Lex Fridman (1:49:14.020)

So that's what I'm using on the road right now.

Lex Fridman (1:49:15.460)

Do people use like emulation?

Lex Fridman (1:49:17.240)

Do they use software?

Lex Fridman (1:49:18.200)

Is it still?

Lex Fridman (1:49:19.220)

They do.

Thomas Tull (1:49:20.060)

I personally don't, I go, I don't have many pedals.

Lex Fridman (1:49:23.680)

I use a Klon, an old vintage Klon straight into the amp.

Thomas Tull (1:49:28.020)

As old school as possible.

Lex Fridman (1:49:30.980)

Is there other cool guitars you have

Lex Fridman (1:49:32.500)

that kind of stand out?

Lex Fridman (1:49:34.540)

I have a bunch of what they call Blackguard Telecasters

Thomas Tull (1:49:38.320)

from the 50s, which are pretty great.

Lex Fridman (1:49:42.140)

What are those, Blackguard Telecasters?

Thomas Tull (1:49:44.020)

Yeah, so they just, you know, it's in the 50s.

Lex Fridman (1:49:45.780)

Oh, they actually legit have a Blackguard.

Thomas Tull (1:49:47.900)

Pickguard.

Lex Fridman (1:49:48.740)

Got it.

Lex Fridman (1:49:49.580)

But they're incredible, so.

Lex Fridman (1:49:51.300)

What's the color of the Telecaster itself?

Thomas Tull (1:49:53.220)

Most of them are yellow with black

Lex Fridman (1:49:55.200)

and then they got into different configurations,

Lex Fridman (1:49:57.400)

but there's something, I have a 51 Telecaster

Lex Fridman (1:50:01.580)

that I play in Open G, and in songs with Open G,

Thomas Tull (1:50:04.720)

that just, again, there's something, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:50:09.020)

and I'll take all the help I can get

Thomas Tull (1:50:11.020)

in terms of making it sound great.

Lex Fridman (1:50:13.200)

So I'll try to find the magic ones.

Thomas Tull (1:50:15.840)

What's your writing process like

Lex Fridman (1:50:18.120)

for the music and the lyrics?

Lex Fridman (1:50:21.620)

Is there, do you have to go to the mountains?

Lex Fridman (1:50:26.120)

Is there whiskey involved?

Lex Fridman (1:50:27.620)

What do you have to do?

Lex Fridman (1:50:28.700)

Or do you just write a little bit

Lex Fridman (1:50:29.900)

whenever you have a moment of free time?

Lex Fridman (1:50:31.780)

I'm a boring guy, because I don't drink.

Thomas Tull (1:50:33.780)

I don't, I just, I figure I can screw things up plenty

Lex Fridman (1:50:37.600)

on my own without adding anything.

Thomas Tull (1:50:39.780)

It's a good call.

Lex Fridman (1:50:40.940)

But, you know, for me, it either starts with a riff,

Thomas Tull (1:50:46.380)

just something that I think is an interesting,

Lex Fridman (1:50:50.840)

you know, riff or tone that I can kind of sink my teeth

Thomas Tull (1:50:54.220)

into a little bit.

Lex Fridman (1:50:55.780)

And a lot of times I'll write a title and love a title

Lex Fridman (1:51:00.140)

and then start to back it up.

Lex Fridman (1:51:02.540)

So the title is almost like an idea.

Thomas Tull (1:51:04.420)

Yeah, like this is where I want to be

Lex Fridman (1:51:07.940)

and then start kind of writing it out.

Lex Fridman (1:51:10.260)

And again, I just have to know,

Lex Fridman (1:51:13.940)

am I writing from a character's point of view?

Thomas Tull (1:51:16.500)

Am I writing about someone or something,

Lex Fridman (1:51:19.860)

you know, as like the narrator?

Lex Fridman (1:51:22.060)

And, you know, what is this person?

Lex Fridman (1:51:23.700)

Are they happy?

Lex Fridman (1:51:24.540)

Are they sad?

Lex Fridman (1:51:25.380)

Are they happy?

Lex Fridman (1:51:26.220)

Where are they in life?

Lex Fridman (1:51:27.300)

I don't know if all that, like,

Thomas Tull (1:51:29.900)

great writers, I'm sure, would say,

Lex Fridman (1:51:32.460)

why don't you just write?

Thomas Tull (1:51:34.140)

You don't need all that.

Lex Fridman (1:51:36.060)

But that's, for me, that's my process.

Thomas Tull (1:51:38.380)

Well, I'm not so sure about that.

Lex Fridman (1:51:39.940)

I bet you quite a lot of writers have

Thomas Tull (1:51:43.540)

created a world in their mind

Lex Fridman (1:51:45.900)

before they even put the simplest of words down.

Lex Fridman (1:51:48.780)

So yeah, there's quite a lot to that.

Lex Fridman (1:51:51.620)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:51:54.980)

What's your favorite song to play?

Lex Fridman (1:51:57.780)

Is there some favorite ones you go to?

Lex Fridman (1:52:00.580)

But both play and kind of, I'm sure you love singing.

Lex Fridman (1:52:04.500)

Oh, no, no, no.

Lex Fridman (1:52:05.420)

No, you don't?

Lex Fridman (1:52:06.780)

I'm not, I'm neither talented nor do I have the desire.

Lex Fridman (1:52:10.860)

And I think, you know, if you come see the show,

Lex Fridman (1:52:14.220)

you won't see a microphone anywhere near me.

Lex Fridman (1:52:16.500)

But do you, I mean, do you hear,

Lex Fridman (1:52:18.020)

like when you're thinking about lyrics,

Lex Fridman (1:52:19.420)

do you hear the idea of the words?

Lex Fridman (1:52:21.860)

100%.

Lex Fridman (1:52:22.700)

And especially what's great with Trey

Lex Fridman (1:52:26.300)

is I write for his voice.

Lex Fridman (1:52:28.620)

And then we have these amazing backup singers

Lex Fridman (1:52:32.180)

that are just, and I can hear all of it,

Thomas Tull (1:52:35.220)

I just can't do it.

Lex Fridman (1:52:37.860)

And so I'd say of our stuff,

Thomas Tull (1:52:41.700)

there's a song called Half My Fault

Lex Fridman (1:52:44.420)

that I play in Open G that just,

Thomas Tull (1:52:47.340)

I love playing the song.

Lex Fridman (1:52:49.060)

I love that energy.

Lex Fridman (1:52:50.540)

And then there's, we have a new blues album coming out

Lex Fridman (1:52:53.980)

and there's a song called Baby We're Through

Lex Fridman (1:52:59.220)

and it just stays on the one.

Lex Fridman (1:53:01.300)

And if for non musicians, that means,

Thomas Tull (1:53:03.860)

like in a lot of rock and roll and blues,

Lex Fridman (1:53:05.580)

it's what's called a one, four, five progression

Thomas Tull (1:53:09.340)

from your kind of root note.

Lex Fridman (1:53:11.020)

And you would hear, if you're a non musician,

Thomas Tull (1:53:13.140)

if you heard it, you'd be like,

Lex Fridman (1:53:14.180)

oh yeah, that's a lot of songs.

Lex Fridman (1:53:16.540)

And this song just stays on the same groove.

Lex Fridman (1:53:18.980)

Like La Grange or Shake Your Hips or any of those songs.

Lex Fridman (1:53:23.420)

And it's just got this unbelievable energy

Lex Fridman (1:53:26.900)

and it's fun to play,

Lex Fridman (1:53:27.740)

but I have to keep the same rhythmic thing going

Lex Fridman (1:53:31.340)

for the whole song.

Thomas Tull (1:53:32.820)

With that simplicity, I mean,

Lex Fridman (1:53:33.980)

the personality of the song can really shine.

Thomas Tull (1:53:36.660)

I mean, Trey's, I mean, that guy, really cool.

Lex Fridman (1:53:42.180)

He just comes through.

Thomas Tull (1:53:44.060)

I mean, I guess you need that from a lead singer.

Lex Fridman (1:53:45.700)

He's just, he's just.

Thomas Tull (1:53:47.380)

You gotta have that, and my other guitar player,

Lex Fridman (1:53:50.180)

Johnny Bob is, he's a phenomenal,

Thomas Tull (1:53:53.980)

I mean, like a legitimate guitar slinger.

Lex Fridman (1:53:58.940)

You know, we probably split the leads 70, 30,

Lex Fridman (1:54:03.260)

and he is just, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:54:06.100)

there's times sometimes I look over at him

Lex Fridman (1:54:07.980)

and I'm like, I'm being a fan right now

Lex Fridman (1:54:09.460)

because what you just laid down is pretty good.

Lex Fridman (1:54:12.660)

From a lead perspective, what's the most fun thing to play?

Lex Fridman (1:54:16.260)

What kind of stuff do you, do you like slow?

Lex Fridman (1:54:18.460)

Do you like, I mean, if you, like, thrill is gone.

Lex Fridman (1:54:21.780)

So if you look at B.B. King,

Thomas Tull (1:54:23.020)

sometimes one note just bending the shit out of that.

Lex Fridman (1:54:25.820)

What do you call that, vibrato?

Thomas Tull (1:54:27.460)

If I'm gonna play the lead, it's a certain kind of feel.

Lex Fridman (1:54:30.260)

Slow blues is probably my favorite to play,

Thomas Tull (1:54:33.860)

or something that's got a little more

Lex Fridman (1:54:35.460)

of that Chuck Berry drive

Thomas Tull (1:54:37.820)

where you can be rhythmic in the lead.

Lex Fridman (1:54:41.980)

You know, I can't, the shredding thing that those guys do

Thomas Tull (1:54:45.220)

is, that's not my.

Lex Fridman (1:54:47.580)

I was actually always able to do that really well.

Thomas Tull (1:54:51.340)

Like, you mentioned people that pick up fast,

Lex Fridman (1:54:53.540)

like, maybe it's the classical piano training.

Thomas Tull (1:54:55.820)

I can play super fast on guitar, super technical.

Lex Fridman (1:54:58.820)

But to me, the hardest thing and my favorite thing

Thomas Tull (1:55:02.020)

is just, it's probably less to do with the guitar,

Lex Fridman (1:55:06.340)

more living on life that's worth playing a guitar for.

Thomas Tull (1:55:10.860)

It's like a certain kind of emotion

Lex Fridman (1:55:13.580)

that you can put into the notes.

Lex Fridman (1:55:15.500)

And that has to do with bending notes well.

Lex Fridman (1:55:17.580)

Like, bending notes is a whole other art form of,

Thomas Tull (1:55:22.540)

I worked surprisingly a long time on Comfortably Numb.

Lex Fridman (1:55:28.540)

And there's, so David Gilmour, there's a lot of bending.

Lex Fridman (1:55:31.940)

And they're simple, they sound simple.

Lex Fridman (1:55:35.300)

But the dynamics of them,

Thomas Tull (1:55:40.140)

to express like a build up in the way it's held

Lex Fridman (1:55:43.300)

and there's often a vibrato at the top for a bit.

Thomas Tull (1:55:46.980)

Just that, it's almost like a sigh

Lex Fridman (1:55:52.620)

and a sigh of relief and the build up.

Thomas Tull (1:55:54.420)

I mean, that's an art form for him that's hard to get right.

Lex Fridman (1:55:58.100)

It's not just playing a note, playing a note,

Thomas Tull (1:56:00.220)

playing a note, it's in that like dynamic movement

Lex Fridman (1:56:04.660)

of a note that so much can happen.

Thomas Tull (1:56:06.420)

That's where the blues happens to.

Lex Fridman (1:56:08.900)

Look, I'm a huge Freddie King fan too, right?

Lex Fridman (1:56:11.420)

And you listen to these guys and they're,

Lex Fridman (1:56:15.980)

you sit there and they're like,

Thomas Tull (1:56:17.020)

man, you're playing in a small range on the neck.

Lex Fridman (1:56:22.540)

But, you know, it's like, I know the notes you're playing

Lex Fridman (1:56:26.860)

and I'm playing them too, but not like that, right?

Lex Fridman (1:56:30.340)

I mean, it's, and Gilmour is certainly one of those guys

Thomas Tull (1:56:33.420)

that's an incredible guitar player.

Lex Fridman (1:56:35.980)

And yet another chapter of an amazing life.

Thomas Tull (1:56:40.500)

You love football, like you mentioned.

Lex Fridman (1:56:41.940)

You play football?

Thomas Tull (1:56:43.020)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:56:43.860)

What position do you play?

Thomas Tull (1:56:44.700)

Wide receiver.

Lex Fridman (1:56:45.520)

Wide receiver.

Thomas Tull (1:56:47.420)

Awesome.

Lex Fridman (1:56:48.260)

So, maybe we can talk a little bit about your love

Thomas Tull (1:56:52.780)

of football and the fact that you are part owner

Lex Fridman (1:56:58.700)

of the Pittsburgh Steelers.

Thomas Tull (1:57:00.740)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:57:01.580)

So, I mean, where do we start?

Thomas Tull (1:57:02.820)

You start at the beginning, let's start at the end.

Lex Fridman (1:57:05.220)

Why the Steelers?

Lex Fridman (1:57:06.780)

What attracted you to the, first of all,

Lex Fridman (1:57:09.580)

I think not to be controversial,

Lex Fridman (1:57:12.620)

but one of the best uniforms in football

Lex Fridman (1:57:15.980)

in terms of just the black and gold, just.

Thomas Tull (1:57:19.100)

Decal only on one side.

Lex Fridman (1:57:20.860)

Yeah, it's great.

Thomas Tull (1:57:21.860)

Yeah, the helmet.

Lex Fridman (1:57:23.100)

Look, I've bled black and gold since I was a little boy.

Thomas Tull (1:57:27.100)

I grew up in upstate New York.

Lex Fridman (1:57:29.540)

And the first football game I ever saw

Thomas Tull (1:57:32.420)

was the Steelers in the Super Bowl is a really little kit.

Lex Fridman (1:57:35.740)

And it just, I mean, Jack Lambert and Joe Green

Lex Fridman (1:57:39.940)

and Franco Harris and those guys were like,

Lex Fridman (1:57:41.900)

came down from Olympia, Mount Olympus or something.

Lex Fridman (1:57:45.660)

And I just was enamored with the team.

Lex Fridman (1:57:48.500)

And because we only had three channels,

Thomas Tull (1:57:50.780)

the only time I'd get to see them is occasionally

Lex Fridman (1:57:53.060)

when they were the game of the week or something.

Lex Fridman (1:57:57.020)

And I just loved to me what they stood for, the toughness

Lex Fridman (1:58:02.020)

and they played football the way that I thought was great.

Thomas Tull (1:58:08.140)

I was a huge Jack Lambert fan,

Lex Fridman (1:58:11.020)

our Hall of Fame linebacker who just intimidated everybody.

Lex Fridman (1:58:15.820)

So that was like the,

Lex Fridman (1:58:16.940)

that was the decade of the steel curtain.

Thomas Tull (1:58:21.500)

I mean, arguably one of the great sort of defensive

Lex Fridman (1:58:24.580)

in football history and also one of the greatest

Thomas Tull (1:58:28.620)

football teams period of in football history.

Lex Fridman (1:58:32.380)

I've been a lifelong fan and was very fortunate

Thomas Tull (1:58:37.220)

to meet Mr. Rooney.

Lex Fridman (1:58:39.820)

The Rooney family started the team in 1933,

Thomas Tull (1:58:44.060)

got to know him and just was asked to be part

Lex Fridman (1:58:48.860)

of the ownership group.

Thomas Tull (1:58:49.740)

I think it was the end of 2007,

Lex Fridman (1:58:52.520)

first year as part of the group in 2008,

Thomas Tull (1:58:54.500)

we won the Super Bowl.

Lex Fridman (1:58:56.100)

And it was like beyond surreal and just beyond surreal.

Lex Fridman (1:59:01.860)

And it's amazing to be able to do.

Lex Fridman (1:59:07.860)

I mean, the Rooney family is one of those most revered

Thomas Tull (1:59:13.020)

in sports for the way they conduct themselves.

Lex Fridman (1:59:16.780)

Mr. Rooney passed away, I think five years ago now

Lex Fridman (1:59:20.980)

and we lost him, but was a champion, helped build the league.

Lex Fridman (1:59:23.960)

I mean, put the league as we know it together.

Thomas Tull (1:59:27.300)

More importantly, it was a civil rights champion

Lex Fridman (1:59:30.820)

who created what we now call the Rooney rule

Thomas Tull (1:59:34.220)

to make sure that we're being fair

Lex Fridman (1:59:36.020)

about giving minority coaches a chance to get hired.

Lex Fridman (1:59:40.460)

And just is one of the most kind

Lex Fridman (1:59:44.700)

and amazing human beings I ever met.

Thomas Tull (1:59:47.880)

It's incredible what sport does.

Lex Fridman (1:59:51.960)

Like to bring out the best in people,

Thomas Tull (1:59:56.000)

to give people hope, to inspire people.

Lex Fridman (1:59:58.360)

There's something about football

Thomas Tull (1:59:59.880)

that has all the elements of a great sport.

Lex Fridman (20:01.460)

Well, look, if you're using big effect shots

Lex Fridman (20:06.460)

and all kinds of tricks to cover over the fact

Lex Fridman (20:10.560)

that you don't have a very interesting story to tell,

Thomas Tull (20:13.640)

that's where I think it gets in the way.

Lex Fridman (20:17.720)

Where I think you have these incredible filmmakers,

Thomas Tull (20:21.800)

we mentioned Chris Nolan and Jim Cameron,

Lex Fridman (20:23.520)

Guillermo del Toro, you could go on and on,

Thomas Tull (20:28.520)

folks that just see the world differently

Lex Fridman (20:33.520)

and use technology to enhance the storytelling, right?

Thomas Tull (20:38.820)

To make you believe differently,

Lex Fridman (20:42.660)

rather to make you not just suspend your disbelief,

Lex Fridman (20:46.820)

but to feel like you're immersed in it.

Lex Fridman (20:49.420)

So I've certainly seen it done expertly

Lex Fridman (20:52.260)

and I've seen it done poorly.

Lex Fridman (20:54.620)

You've talked about this a little bit in the past.

Thomas Tull (20:57.460)

You kind of left the moviemaking business

Lex Fridman (21:02.140)

at an interesting time, perhaps you saw the changes.

Thomas Tull (21:07.060)

There's been a lot of excitement with Netflix, with TV,

Lex Fridman (21:10.120)

so the role of film in society has changed.

Lex Fridman (21:13.860)

So what do you think is the future of movies versus TV?

Lex Fridman (21:18.180)

Like if you were as a business person, as a creator,

Thomas Tull (21:21.460)

as a consumer, as a technologist,

Lex Fridman (21:24.820)

are thinking about the next 10, 20 years,

Lex Fridman (21:27.500)

what do you think is going to be the godfather,

Lex Fridman (21:31.960)

the great pieces that move us as a society

Lex Fridman (21:36.060)

in the next 10, 20 years?

Lex Fridman (21:37.320)

Is it going to be TV?

Lex Fridman (21:38.220)

Is it going to be movie?

Lex Fridman (21:39.660)

Is it going to be a TikTok clips?

Lex Fridman (21:43.660)

What is it?

Lex Fridman (21:44.600)

Well, so, and I think the other category

Thomas Tull (21:48.540)

that I would add to that, that will be the next great medium

Lex Fridman (21:52.260)

is truly immersive virtual reality

Thomas Tull (21:55.980)

in which new storytellers will emerge,

Lex Fridman (22:00.500)

especially when you can go into VR

Lex Fridman (22:03.820)

and there's enough computing power to sustain it

Lex Fridman (22:08.260)

and to allow it to be social

Lex Fridman (22:10.340)

and for you to have different paths to go down.

Lex Fridman (22:14.680)

That'll be, I think, the next realm

Thomas Tull (22:17.020)

of what storytelling and experience will look like.

Lex Fridman (22:20.100)

Do you think a video game kind of world

Thomas Tull (22:22.140)

or is it more movies or is it more social network

Lex Fridman (22:26.180)

or is it all of it kind of blending reality and gaming

Lex Fridman (22:30.780)

and movies?

Lex Fridman (22:31.780)

Yeah, I thought if you saw Ready Player One,

Thomas Tull (22:35.100)

which I love the book and the movie was cool too,

Lex Fridman (22:39.100)

but that's one version of it, right?

Thomas Tull (22:42.980)

Where you go in, now everybody's talking about the metaverse

Lex Fridman (22:46.220)

and all that, but you go into a world

Thomas Tull (22:47.860)

that's fully rendered as yourself

Lex Fridman (22:50.380)

and you interact with that world.

Thomas Tull (22:51.540)

The other side of it is to go in somewhere

Lex Fridman (22:54.840)

between being a passive observer,

Lex Fridman (22:57.760)

but being able to move around your point of view

Lex Fridman (23:00.080)

and experiences, which I think is interesting.

Lex Fridman (23:03.300)

And then I think another adventure, so to speak,

Lex Fridman (23:07.120)

I could think of is a blend of video games.

Lex Fridman (23:10.340)

So there's a mission, right?

Lex Fridman (23:12.020)

There's obstacles, there's everything

Lex Fridman (23:14.580)

and you move through it, but it's immersive

Lex Fridman (23:17.900)

and it tells a story at the same time.

Lex Fridman (23:19.640)

And that's why I think you're gonna see

Lex Fridman (23:22.740)

new amazing storytellers that we don't know yet

Thomas Tull (23:27.860)

that understand how to innovate

Lex Fridman (23:29.740)

and how to make you feel something in that environment.

Lex Fridman (23:34.540)

And to your earlier point, I saw probably around 2015

Lex Fridman (23:41.820)

when Netflix decided to be bold, put out House of Cards,

Thomas Tull (23:47.620)

put out all the episodes, leave you in charge

Lex Fridman (23:50.660)

of the pace at which you would view them,

Thomas Tull (23:53.740)

which I thought was great.

Lex Fridman (23:56.420)

That was a gutsy move.

Thomas Tull (23:57.780)

Yes, it was.

Lex Fridman (23:58.700)

And I can't tell you around Hollywood,

Thomas Tull (24:00.600)

anybody that says that everybody thought it was a great idea

Lex Fridman (24:03.060)

is not being truthful because everybody I talked to

Lex Fridman (24:06.740)

said this is, they're idiots, right?

Lex Fridman (24:10.140)

What do they know about movie making and TV?

Lex Fridman (24:13.480)

And what I saw happening was if you look

Lex Fridman (24:18.480)

at what Netflix pulled off and they realized

Thomas Tull (24:21.300)

that there isn't really a moat around the studios,

Lex Fridman (24:24.740)

you really could make stuff and really good stuff.

Lex Fridman (24:29.580)

And so they started to create their own content

Lex Fridman (24:32.820)

that pulled in Amazon, which pulled in Google

Thomas Tull (24:37.700)

through YouTube and then you had Hulu,

Lex Fridman (24:40.580)

then you had Disney deciding

Thomas Tull (24:43.260)

that they're gonna have Disney Plus.

Lex Fridman (24:44.660)

And the next thing you know, you have some

Thomas Tull (24:47.300)

of the biggest companies with the largest balance sheets

Lex Fridman (24:50.300)

on the planet being in the creative business.

Thomas Tull (24:55.620)

If you're an independent, that's bringing a knife

Lex Fridman (24:58.020)

to a gunfight to be sure.

Lex Fridman (25:00.580)

And so I thought that was interesting.

Lex Fridman (25:03.760)

The other thing that it used to be that movies

Thomas Tull (25:06.880)

were where the big things happened

Lex Fridman (25:08.360)

and television was sort of,

Thomas Tull (25:10.320)

it was small screen, different experience.

Lex Fridman (25:13.140)

And you had something like Game of Thrones come out,

Thomas Tull (25:15.780)

which was not only on the same epic level visually

Lex Fridman (25:19.860)

and storytelling wise, but had the budget

Thomas Tull (25:22.560)

to be able to do it.

Lex Fridman (25:24.040)

And now I think you're seeing all kinds

Thomas Tull (25:31.780)

of different storytelling taking place.

Lex Fridman (25:35.780)

And I also like that you're not pigeonholed into a time.

Thomas Tull (25:40.460)

You got two hours to tell the story.

Lex Fridman (25:42.620)

You can do a three part mini series,

Thomas Tull (25:44.260)

a five part mini series.

Lex Fridman (25:45.480)

You can do television that's all kinds of different format.

Thomas Tull (25:49.340)

That I think allows creators

Lex Fridman (25:53.500)

to do a lot more interesting things.

Thomas Tull (25:57.220)

It is also interesting to consider the role

Lex Fridman (25:59.780)

of companies that enable that,

Thomas Tull (26:01.600)

like the capital that enables that.

Lex Fridman (26:04.660)

Without Netflix and HBO, you wouldn't have

Thomas Tull (26:09.460)

some of these epic shows.

Lex Fridman (26:11.340)

And so if we're thinking about the virtual reality world

Thomas Tull (26:14.340)

that you're talking about,

Lex Fridman (26:16.700)

it's interesting to consider who will enable that.

Thomas Tull (26:19.340)

Now, like you said, Facebook is talking about meta

Lex Fridman (26:22.580)

and metaverse, but it's unclear

Thomas Tull (26:25.580)

that just having money is enough.

Lex Fridman (26:28.720)

Netflix did a lot of really revolutionary stuff.

Thomas Tull (26:33.020)

Amazon has money.

Lex Fridman (26:34.180)

There's a lot of companies that have money

Thomas Tull (26:35.380)

that don't quite do as good of a job yet

Lex Fridman (26:38.500)

at enabling creators of creating revolutionary new content.

Thomas Tull (26:44.540)

That changes the whole industry.

Lex Fridman (26:46.620)

And that's probably going to be the case

Thomas Tull (26:48.100)

with virtual reality.

Lex Fridman (26:49.420)

There is a lot of money needed to enable experiences,

Thomas Tull (26:54.140)

like in terms of compute infrastructure.

Lex Fridman (26:57.020)

There needs to be a huge amount of money there,

Lex Fridman (26:59.540)

but you also need to somehow give freedom to creators

Lex Fridman (27:02.860)

to have fun, to do their best work,

Lex Fridman (27:05.900)

and at the same time provide the perfect amount

Lex Fridman (27:11.620)

of constraints, all of that together.

Thomas Tull (27:13.620)

However Netflix makes it happen,

Lex Fridman (27:15.180)

they do a pretty good job

Thomas Tull (27:16.460)

because it's a very constrained platform,

Lex Fridman (27:18.880)

but yet all the creators I've ever talked to,

Thomas Tull (27:21.340)

comedians and so on, that work with Netflix,

Lex Fridman (27:24.300)

are really happy because they feel free

Thomas Tull (27:26.720)

to create their work.

Lex Fridman (27:27.900)

Yeah, and I think a lot of times companies are a letterhead,

Lex Fridman (27:32.580)

but it boils down to the people.

Lex Fridman (27:34.500)

And I think I've known Ted Sarandos a long time

Thomas Tull (27:38.700)

who ran the studio at Netflix

Lex Fridman (27:40.840)

and now took over for Reed running the company.

Lex Fridman (27:44.420)

But Ted, very smart, talented guy,

Lex Fridman (27:47.620)

and understood early how to cultivate talent

Lex Fridman (27:50.880)

and relationships with talent, which is important.

Lex Fridman (27:53.540)

When you're dealing with creative people,

Thomas Tull (27:56.220)

their motivations and their goals

Lex Fridman (27:58.300)

are not always the same, right?

Lex Fridman (28:00.020)

They're not always capitalistic, right?

Lex Fridman (28:02.420)

And so in terms of being able to communicate

Thomas Tull (28:05.900)

with creative people that are not always A to B to C

Lex Fridman (28:10.640)

is a talent.

Lex Fridman (28:11.940)

And so I think they did a great job.

Lex Fridman (28:14.180)

Ted did a great job with that early.

Lex Fridman (28:18.000)

But I think that you're gonna see different formats.

Lex Fridman (28:21.460)

I don't think, I mean, going to a theater

Thomas Tull (28:26.200)

to see a massive movie on that screen in that format

Lex Fridman (28:30.580)

is a fundamentally different experience.

Lex Fridman (28:33.260)

And I think you're gonna find movies,

Lex Fridman (28:36.180)

my old shop, Legendary, just put out Dune,

Thomas Tull (28:38.800)

which I thought was phenomenal.

Lex Fridman (28:43.980)

When we secured the rights to Dune years ago,

Thomas Tull (28:48.700)

I was over the moon because I love the book.

Lex Fridman (28:51.420)

I love the entire world that is Dune.

Lex Fridman (28:57.180)

And that's a movie that I think you see on the big screen.

Lex Fridman (28:59.920)

I think when Avatar 2 comes out,

Thomas Tull (29:03.300)

I wanna see that on a big screen.

Lex Fridman (29:06.020)

But I think you're gonna see a ton of content

Thomas Tull (29:09.600)

is obviously being produced,

Lex Fridman (29:11.420)

and it's not all gonna go to a theater going experience.

Lex Fridman (29:14.140)

So you're gonna see, I think, different versions of this

Lex Fridman (29:17.180)

over the next five to 10 years.

Thomas Tull (29:19.740)

In case James Cameron is listening to this,

Lex Fridman (29:22.100)

so he officially agreed to talk at the time of,

Thomas Tull (29:25.260)

on this podcast, at the time of Avatar 2 release.

Lex Fridman (29:27.820)

I'm just holding you to that in this recorded conversation.

Thomas Tull (29:31.860)

Also just super excited, both the movie and the director.

Lex Fridman (29:38.240)

There's something special about movies.

Thomas Tull (29:41.500)

They win Oscars, they're historic in nature.

Lex Fridman (29:46.760)

There's something about TV shows,

Thomas Tull (29:48.500)

even when they're epic like Game of Thrones,

Lex Fridman (29:50.980)

that they're forgotten much quicker in history.

Thomas Tull (29:54.360)

I don't know, maybe that's because we haven't had

Lex Fridman (29:56.500)

enough of them, but the De Niro performances,

Thomas Tull (2:00:04.900)

It's the teamwork, it's the sort of the combat aspect of it.

Lex Fridman (2:00:10.320)

It's like, it's the purity of it.

Thomas Tull (2:00:11.880)

It's of like strength and power and speed

Lex Fridman (2:00:16.880)

and all the elements of like last minute,

Thomas Tull (2:00:21.700)

close calls required to win the game.

Lex Fridman (2:00:25.100)

And where referee decisions, of course,

Thomas Tull (2:00:28.140)

that's essential for a sport can screw up the whole thing.

Lex Fridman (2:00:30.940)

Just got all of it together.

Thomas Tull (2:00:32.220)

I think just, I don't know, it gives the drama

Lex Fridman (2:00:36.980)

and the triumphs are just beautiful.

Thomas Tull (2:00:40.060)

Like some of my favorite memories,

Lex Fridman (2:00:42.500)

I don't know if it's an accident

Thomas Tull (2:00:43.700)

or this is common with people,

Lex Fridman (2:00:45.640)

it's just with friends watching football

Lex Fridman (2:00:48.340)

and connecting over that.

Lex Fridman (2:00:51.300)

Yeah, well, look, it's an incredible game

Lex Fridman (2:00:54.180)

because there's nowhere to hide, right?

Lex Fridman (2:00:56.100)

You're out there on the field.

Thomas Tull (2:00:57.700)

You know, it's a great game that requires

Lex Fridman (2:01:02.100)

not only all those attributes that you said,

Lex Fridman (2:01:04.340)

but it's incredibly complex game.

Lex Fridman (2:01:07.600)

So if you don't know what you're looking at

Lex Fridman (2:01:09.180)

and you don't understand how complex

Lex Fridman (2:01:11.660)

defenses are trying to disguise what they're doing,

Thomas Tull (2:01:14.900)

offenses are trying to overcome that

Lex Fridman (2:01:17.060)

and you can set up one play the entire game,

Lex Fridman (2:01:22.300)

but a team that plays well together, right?

Lex Fridman (2:01:26.960)

Knows their plays inside and out,

Thomas Tull (2:01:28.340)

knows their assignments inside and out,

Lex Fridman (2:01:30.420)

can overcome and beat a more physically gifted team

Thomas Tull (2:01:33.940)

because of that aspect of working together.

Lex Fridman (2:01:38.780)

One of the things that I always loved about sports

Thomas Tull (2:01:43.020)

is just you're out there, there's a set of rules

Lex Fridman (2:01:47.260)

and there's a scoreboard.

Lex Fridman (2:01:48.980)

So at the end of that game, it says,

Lex Fridman (2:01:51.900)

and you can make excuses about the refs

Thomas Tull (2:01:54.440)

or this happened or that happened,

Lex Fridman (2:01:55.620)

but at the end of the day, did you go out and compete?

Lex Fridman (2:02:01.740)

And when you went out and were a competitor,

Lex Fridman (2:02:05.700)

how did it work out, right?

Lex Fridman (2:02:07.780)

And the simplicity of that and the purity of that

Lex Fridman (2:02:10.740)

is something that I always have been drawn to.

Lex Fridman (2:02:15.240)

What about the business of sort of owning a team

Lex Fridman (2:02:18.840)

or putting together a team or trying to like build up a team

Lex Fridman (2:02:22.200)

that's going to be a great team?

Lex Fridman (2:02:23.440)

Like what are some interesting aspects

Thomas Tull (2:02:25.320)

that people might not realize that you can carry over

Lex Fridman (2:02:27.720)

from all the other experience you have in business?

Thomas Tull (2:02:32.860)

I think the hardest thing about professional sports,

Lex Fridman (2:02:36.200)

right now it's individuals getting paid money

Thomas Tull (2:02:39.760)

to play a sport, which is different than,

Lex Fridman (2:02:42.880)

it's certainly different than amateur.

Lex Fridman (2:02:45.120)

And the decisions that are hard

Lex Fridman (2:02:48.440)

is when you get to know somebody

Thomas Tull (2:02:50.600)

who's a player on the team

Lex Fridman (2:02:53.000)

and either they're at the end of their career

Thomas Tull (2:02:55.160)

or you need to go in a different direction

Lex Fridman (2:02:57.320)

and that person who's done everything that you've asked,

Thomas Tull (2:03:01.760)

whatever the coaches have asked of that person

Lex Fridman (2:03:03.880)

and you get close to them.

Lex Fridman (2:03:05.920)

And then when they have to be traded,

Lex Fridman (2:03:08.480)

released or whatever happens, it's, that's sad.

Lex Fridman (2:03:12.080)

And being able to stand back and in some ways

Lex Fridman (2:03:17.880)

be dispassionate and not be a fan, right?

Thomas Tull (2:03:20.960)

There's a, I'm on the baseball hall of fame board

Lex Fridman (2:03:25.860)

and one of the guys that's on the board of me

Thomas Tull (2:03:29.620)

is Jerry Reinsdorf.

Lex Fridman (2:03:30.600)

And I think it was Jerry who said,

Thomas Tull (2:03:32.880)

if you act like a fan, you'll be sitting with them,

Lex Fridman (2:03:36.280)

which I thought was kind of funny.

Thomas Tull (2:03:37.820)

Well, I got to push back on that a little bit

Lex Fridman (2:03:40.600)

as a, by way of a fan asking a dumb question.

Thomas Tull (2:03:47.520)

Okay, let me just give some examples.

Lex Fridman (2:03:49.240)

It's very common in sport.

Thomas Tull (2:03:51.600)

It's funny you said this example of like

Lex Fridman (2:03:54.360)

certain great players going to another team

Thomas Tull (2:03:57.360)

right at the end of their career.

Lex Fridman (2:04:00.880)

And it always makes me sad.

Thomas Tull (2:04:03.000)

It almost makes me want to wish

Lex Fridman (2:04:04.360)

that he kind of retired right there from a perspective

Thomas Tull (2:04:09.360)

of just like, do you ever, as a owner,

Lex Fridman (2:04:13.720)

but just in that space, think about like the Steelers

Thomas Tull (2:04:18.720)

in the full arc of human history.

Lex Fridman (2:04:21.640)

So not like as a business.

Thomas Tull (2:04:23.940)

I mean, okay, this question might be absurd.

Lex Fridman (2:04:26.200)

I don't have to think about it as a business.

Thomas Tull (2:04:28.640)

You know, I'm a minority owner,

Lex Fridman (2:04:30.500)

so I can think about it almost as a fan,

Lex Fridman (2:04:33.080)

but I'm sorry, go ahead.

Lex Fridman (2:04:34.120)

Yeah, well, that's what I mean.

Thomas Tull (2:04:35.800)

I suppose this is a dumb question to think of,

Lex Fridman (2:04:40.420)

like of a business in that way, not just investment,

Lex Fridman (2:04:44.840)

but like legacy of like what footprint

Lex Fridman (2:04:49.840)

would you leave on this world, on this history?

Thomas Tull (2:04:52.760)

That is one thing that I can say unequivocally,

Lex Fridman (2:04:55.960)

and I only have the experience that I have.

Lex Fridman (2:04:59.400)

But one of the things that I'm so proud of

Lex Fridman (2:05:02.440)

about the way the Steelers conduct themselves is,

Lex Fridman (2:05:07.700)

and that's the Rooney family,

Lex Fridman (2:05:08.940)

that's the legacy of the Rooney family,

Thomas Tull (2:05:10.620)

is asking constantly about what's right for the league,

Lex Fridman (2:05:13.500)

what's right for the players,

Lex Fridman (2:05:17.100)

what's the right thing to do here?

Lex Fridman (2:05:19.060)

And that's something that I would hear Mr. Rooney say

Thomas Tull (2:05:22.200)

all the time.

Lex Fridman (2:05:23.040)

So I think that legacy is important

Lex Fridman (2:05:25.440)

because ultimately the team belongs to that city, right?

Lex Fridman (2:05:29.640)

Belongs to those fans and the owners

Thomas Tull (2:05:33.140)

are the custodians of that.

Lex Fridman (2:05:35.380)

So I think, and when you realize what sports teams mean

Thomas Tull (2:05:41.260)

to the fans, the memories that it creates,

Lex Fridman (2:05:43.580)

the bonds that it creates, it's a responsibility.

Lex Fridman (2:05:50.340)

And I think that you do have to think beyond the,

Lex Fridman (2:05:55.020)

certainly not just dollars and cents,

Lex Fridman (2:05:57.180)

but just sports is a very big deal in our society.

Lex Fridman (2:06:02.980)

And it has to be, I think, held to a standard

Lex Fridman (2:06:08.300)

that's not just, well, were we profitable this year?

Lex Fridman (2:06:12.460)

That's, there are other businesses for that.

Thomas Tull (2:06:14.840)

It is certainly a business.

Lex Fridman (2:06:16.240)

I don't mean to romanticize to the point that it's not,

Lex Fridman (2:06:19.220)

but to me, it's more than that.

Lex Fridman (2:06:22.260)

Or at least my experience has been that it's more than that.

Thomas Tull (2:06:24.820)

It's a source of meaning for millions of people.

Lex Fridman (2:06:28.060)

And you see that most, like during COVID, for example,

Thomas Tull (2:06:32.140)

when there's so much desperation,

Lex Fridman (2:06:33.740)

so many people losing their jobs,

Lex Fridman (2:06:35.500)

so many people having to deal with the uncertainty

Lex Fridman (2:06:37.300)

of what the future holds.

Thomas Tull (2:06:38.980)

There's something about those sports that just unites us

Lex Fridman (2:06:42.140)

that again, the tragedy and the triumphs of sport,

Thomas Tull (2:06:47.500)

of united, of gathering together with your friends,

Lex Fridman (2:06:50.780)

with family, shared experience of over like this,

Thomas Tull (2:06:54.100)

yeah, over just team, over rooting for your team,

Lex Fridman (2:06:58.180)

for your city ultimately.

Lex Fridman (2:06:59.940)

And the access, again, as I alluded to,

Lex Fridman (2:07:03.260)

we didn't have anything when I was growing up,

Lex Fridman (2:07:05.300)

but I would pour through the box scores.

Lex Fridman (2:07:07.780)

I was a huge Yankee fan and Steeler fan

Lex Fridman (2:07:10.340)

and feeling some ownership of that, right?

Lex Fridman (2:07:13.700)

That I could read the box score and relive what they did

Lex Fridman (2:07:16.300)

and occasionally see them on TV

Lex Fridman (2:07:18.880)

and feel like I was part of that celebration

Thomas Tull (2:07:22.500)

when they won and everything.

Lex Fridman (2:07:24.180)

It's a very powerful thing.

Thomas Tull (2:07:27.500)

You've been exceptionally successful in a bunch of avenues

Lex Fridman (2:07:30.580)

and a bunch of efforts.

Lex Fridman (2:07:31.980)

What advice would you give to a young person today,

Lex Fridman (2:07:34.740)

a high school student, a college undergraduate

Thomas Tull (2:07:38.220)

that's thinking about career, maybe advice,

Lex Fridman (2:07:43.620)

not about just career, but about how to live a life

Lex Fridman (2:07:46.740)

they can be proud of?

Lex Fridman (2:07:49.140)

You know, we talked earlier about intellectual honesty

Lex Fridman (2:07:51.740)

and to me, that's the first step of just saying

Lex Fridman (2:07:55.100)

to the best of your ability, who am I?

Lex Fridman (2:07:57.980)

And what's important to me

Lex Fridman (2:07:59.940)

and what do I wanna do and accomplish?

Thomas Tull (2:08:03.020)

If you can start with that

Lex Fridman (2:08:05.060)

and develop some sort of rules based philosophical,

Thomas Tull (2:08:10.020)

here's what I'll do, what I won't do.

Lex Fridman (2:08:14.060)

And that way you can be flexible and pliable

Lex Fridman (2:08:18.200)

and you're gonna need to be,

Lex Fridman (2:08:19.180)

but if you still have a compass that tells you,

Thomas Tull (2:08:25.140)

hey, at least I know this is the path I'm gonna take,

Lex Fridman (2:08:28.300)

I think that's very important.

Thomas Tull (2:08:29.940)

The rules you're referring to, the principles,

Lex Fridman (2:08:33.020)

that's kind of like underlying integrity.

Lex Fridman (2:08:35.780)

So knowing what lines you don't cross on this path.

Lex Fridman (2:08:39.020)

Exactly right, because if you have those absolutes,

Thomas Tull (2:08:42.780)

there are many decisions that come into focus very quickly

Lex Fridman (2:08:46.540)

because hey, that's not for me, or hey,

Thomas Tull (2:08:49.820)

I'm willing to do whatever it takes to do X, Y, and Z.

Lex Fridman (2:08:53.980)

And it has to do with the thing you were talking about.

Thomas Tull (2:08:56.580)

It's kind of interesting, you mentioned earlier

Lex Fridman (2:08:58.900)

in the conversation about slippery slope

Lex Fridman (2:09:01.140)

and that's how often it happens,

Lex Fridman (2:09:03.360)

like how the slipping into unethical behavior happens.

Thomas Tull (2:09:07.800)

It's a slippery slope of little adjustments,

Lex Fridman (2:09:09.940)

you put stuff off and I found that to be,

Thomas Tull (2:09:13.940)

I've been fortunate to not have to encounter these moments

Lex Fridman (2:09:19.800)

very much in my life, but I still encounter them.

Thomas Tull (2:09:22.740)

That's what integrity I think looks like,

Lex Fridman (2:09:25.340)

is as the slippery slope is happening,

Thomas Tull (2:09:29.080)

those little things is without drama,

Lex Fridman (2:09:33.260)

without making a show of it,

Thomas Tull (2:09:35.980)

making a decision that stands behind your principles

Lex Fridman (2:09:38.620)

and just walking away.

Thomas Tull (2:09:40.340)

Yeah, and besides the big ideas,

Lex Fridman (2:09:42.920)

I'm gonna change the world, I'm gonna innovate,

Thomas Tull (2:09:46.100)

I'm gonna do all those other things,

Lex Fridman (2:09:48.080)

I also start, if I'm giving any advice,

Thomas Tull (2:09:51.320)

which we can debate whether or not I should be giving advice,

Lex Fridman (2:09:55.820)

but just in terms of, well, let me start with this.

Lex Fridman (2:09:59.100)

Are you a good friend?

Lex Fridman (2:10:01.140)

Can you be counted on?

Lex Fridman (2:10:02.860)

Do you do what you say you're going to do?

Lex Fridman (2:10:05.260)

Yeah. Right?

Thomas Tull (2:10:07.100)

Are you accountable to what you sign up for

Lex Fridman (2:10:09.740)

and do you hold others accountable?

Lex Fridman (2:10:12.100)

What does all that look like?

Lex Fridman (2:10:13.740)

And then I think it's being as intellectually curious

Lex Fridman (2:10:18.820)

and well read as you can be.

Lex Fridman (2:10:20.140)

We live in a world that is designed to distract you, right?

Lex Fridman (2:10:24.540)

And being able to sit with your thoughts

Lex Fridman (2:10:27.540)

or go on a walk and think deeply about something

Lex Fridman (2:10:30.860)

and not just surface area, you text me, I text you back

Lex Fridman (2:10:34.660)

and we decide the fate of the world

Thomas Tull (2:10:36.620)

based on a couple of text messages or something.

Lex Fridman (2:10:42.280)

You don't wanna lose touch, I think, with being well read

Lex Fridman (2:10:46.580)

and understanding and standing on great thinkers shoulders

Lex Fridman (2:10:50.740)

and learning from those works.

Lex Fridman (2:10:55.340)

And then I also think that there's resiliency

Lex Fridman (2:11:00.380)

and then there's grit.

Lex Fridman (2:11:02.320)

And I heard someone say one time

Lex Fridman (2:11:04.420)

that those are slightly different.

Lex Fridman (2:11:06.860)

And I'm also, I know that there are all kinds

Lex Fridman (2:11:11.400)

of challenges in life, right?

Thomas Tull (2:11:13.260)

That are tragic, that are unfair.

Lex Fridman (2:11:16.700)

There's no question that's the world we live in.

Lex Fridman (2:11:19.300)

But for me personally, to try as much as possible

Lex Fridman (2:11:23.100)

not to be in the victim mindset

Thomas Tull (2:11:26.900)

because unfair things are gonna happen.

Lex Fridman (2:11:30.700)

And we all wanna live in an idealistic, just world.

Thomas Tull (2:11:36.500)

That should be what we aspire to.

Lex Fridman (2:11:40.060)

I haven't seen that yet, I haven't experienced that yet,

Lex Fridman (2:11:43.020)

but yet you still have to function in that world.

Lex Fridman (2:11:47.140)

So I think that that resiliency thing is very important.

Lex Fridman (2:11:52.740)

And then putting yourself out there, right?

Lex Fridman (2:11:56.900)

Because if you play scared and you're always afraid to fail,

Thomas Tull (2:12:01.380)

you know, this is probably a dumb way

Lex Fridman (2:12:03.780)

to get to the end of the podcast,

Lex Fridman (2:12:05.160)

but there are times, especially I'm out West,

Lex Fridman (2:12:08.700)

I love the big sky out in Montana, Idaho, places like that.

Lex Fridman (2:12:13.700)

And when you look up at night, it's almost like

Lex Fridman (2:12:16.100)

I've never seen anything like this before

Thomas Tull (2:12:18.300)

because there's no light pollution, so to speak.

Lex Fridman (2:12:22.500)

And sometimes when I look up,

Thomas Tull (2:12:23.940)

the most daunting problems that I'm experiencing,

Lex Fridman (2:12:26.180)

I'm like, those things have been there

Thomas Tull (2:12:29.620)

for a billion years or whatever,

Lex Fridman (2:12:31.540)

and I'll be gone and it doesn't,

Thomas Tull (2:12:35.340)

the most famous person on earth 200 years ago, eh.

Lex Fridman (2:12:41.340)

So it's pretty fleeting.

Lex Fridman (2:12:44.740)

And so make sure you have a good journey

Lex Fridman (2:12:48.020)

and especially coming out of COVID,

Thomas Tull (2:12:50.500)

I think telling people that you care about them

Lex Fridman (2:12:53.700)

and maintaining and cultivating your friendships

Lex Fridman (2:12:56.940)

and relationships and they're not just transactional, right?

Lex Fridman (2:13:00.740)

And making sure that someday when you're laying there,

Thomas Tull (2:13:04.760)

you can say, yeah, I was a good family member.

Lex Fridman (2:13:07.020)

I was a good friend.

Thomas Tull (2:13:10.180)

I was someone that could be counted on.

Lex Fridman (2:13:11.980)

I think all those things go into the mix of, you know,

Thomas Tull (2:13:15.740)

however you wanna take the journey.

Lex Fridman (2:13:17.500)

So when you look up to the stars,

Lex Fridman (2:13:19.020)

do you think about that quickly approaching end of yours?

Lex Fridman (2:13:23.100)

Do you think about your own mortality?

Lex Fridman (2:13:24.580)

Do you think about your death?

Lex Fridman (2:13:26.100)

Are you afraid of your death?

Lex Fridman (2:13:27.860)

I'm a huge fan of stoicism, right?

Lex Fridman (2:13:30.420)

I read a lot of stoicism.

Thomas Tull (2:13:34.060)

I think Ryan Holiday's done a great job

Lex Fridman (2:13:35.900)

of bringing some of that back into the forefront.

Thomas Tull (2:13:38.940)

It's just really thought provoking to me

Lex Fridman (2:13:43.420)

and rings, a lot of it rings, just hits me

Lex Fridman (2:13:45.740)

and says, I think that's right.

Lex Fridman (2:13:47.700)

And that Momento Mori thing, which is,

Thomas Tull (2:13:51.700)

hey, we're all gonna die, so you should contemplate it.

Lex Fridman (2:13:56.220)

There's a finality to this thing.

Lex Fridman (2:13:58.720)

And so I think if you can rightly frame that

Lex Fridman (2:14:03.060)

between fretting about it every day and being afraid

Lex Fridman (2:14:07.360)

and being so laissez faire that you think, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:14:09.660)

you're gonna live forever,

Thomas Tull (2:14:13.240)

it'll influence some of the decisions you make.

Lex Fridman (2:14:15.920)

It'll influence the way you attack things

Lex Fridman (2:14:19.140)

and hopefully the way that you live your life.

Lex Fridman (2:14:23.420)

So yes, I wouldn't say I obsess over it

Lex Fridman (2:14:28.180)

and I wouldn't say it's omnipresent,

Lex Fridman (2:14:31.700)

but because I read a lot of stoicism

Lex Fridman (2:14:33.780)

and just, I think it's right to pause and say,

Lex Fridman (2:14:37.780)

who knows, right?

Thomas Tull (2:14:38.740)

There's gonna be an expiration date.

Lex Fridman (2:14:42.340)

And if it happened tomorrow,

Lex Fridman (2:14:43.940)

have I done the things I wanted to do?

Lex Fridman (2:14:46.700)

And am I the person I wanted to be?

Lex Fridman (2:14:50.120)

And I think it's important along the way

Lex Fridman (2:14:52.100)

to check those things.

Thomas Tull (2:14:53.860)

Yeah, I try to make sure that I actually visualize this,

Lex Fridman (2:14:58.460)

that I'm okay dying at the end of the day,

Thomas Tull (2:15:01.340)

at the end of each day.

Lex Fridman (2:15:03.100)

Like, if this is the last thing I do in my life

Thomas Tull (2:15:05.500)

is talking to you.

Lex Fridman (2:15:07.760)

Oh, good Lord.

Thomas Tull (2:15:11.260)

I'm happy.

Lex Fridman (2:15:12.860)

I know you're joking, but I, you know,

Thomas Tull (2:15:15.140)

that, yeah, I'm happy I get to live the life I do

Lex Fridman (2:15:19.620)

and I think momentum more,

Thomas Tull (2:15:20.740)

I think the stoics have it right.

Lex Fridman (2:15:23.140)

So you, and you have it right in saying,

Thomas Tull (2:15:26.380)

meditate on death enough to remember

Lex Fridman (2:15:28.940)

that this ride ends pretty quickly,

Thomas Tull (2:15:31.500)

to help you appreciate every day

Lex Fridman (2:15:34.340)

and the people you love, the people close to you

Lex Fridman (2:15:36.500)

and the cool shit that you're doing in your life,

Lex Fridman (2:15:39.280)

the cool shit you're creating.

Lex Fridman (2:15:40.860)

And the fact that you, Mr. Thomas Tall,

Lex Fridman (2:15:44.180)

are playing with the motherfucking Rolling Stones tomorrow.

Thomas Tull (2:15:48.620)

You are the man in so many disciplines,

Lex Fridman (2:15:50.700)

so respected, so successful.

Thomas Tull (2:15:52.940)

It's truly an honor that you sit down

Lex Fridman (2:15:55.220)

and talk with me today.

Thomas Tull (2:15:56.460)

Thomas, thank you so much for showing up in Texas

Lex Fridman (2:15:59.780)

and for talking on this silly little podcast.

Thomas Tull (2:16:01.940)

Oh, it's great, man.

Lex Fridman (2:16:02.800)

I'm a huge fan of the show

Lex Fridman (2:16:04.300)

and have had a great time hanging with you

Lex Fridman (2:16:06.700)

and really appreciate it.

Thomas Tull (2:16:09.260)

Thanks for listening to this conversation with Thomas Tall.

Lex Fridman (2:16:12.000)

To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors

Thomas Tull (2:16:14.740)

in the description.

Lex Fridman (2:16:16.100)

And now, let me leave you with some words

Thomas Tull (2:16:18.320)

from Mick Jagger and the Rolling Stones.

Lex Fridman (2:16:21.320)

You can't always get what you want,

Lex Fridman (2:16:23.500)

but if you try sometimes,

Lex Fridman (2:16:25.000)

you might find you'll get what you need.

Thomas Tull (2:16:27.460)

Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

Lex Fridman (30:00.180)

and the Scorsese films, all the great films

Thomas Tull (30:04.260)

that we think of throughout the generations

Lex Fridman (30:07.300)

that define generations are films.

Lex Fridman (30:10.280)

Is that just old school thinking?

Lex Fridman (30:12.980)

Is that always going to be the case?

Thomas Tull (30:14.100)

I mean, look, to me, going in a darkened theater

Lex Fridman (30:20.060)

with a bunch of strangers, and the lights go down,

Lex Fridman (30:23.220)

and you go on this journey, there is something special

Lex Fridman (30:28.020)

and magical about that.

Lex Fridman (30:29.980)

And I think movies have been a part

Lex Fridman (30:33.460)

of our cultural fabric forever.

Lex Fridman (30:36.060)

And for some reason, Hollywood in America

Lex Fridman (30:40.340)

was uniquely positioned to do a great job with it.

Thomas Tull (30:46.260)

Not that there aren't great foreign movies,

Lex Fridman (30:48.060)

but far and away, American movies dominate,

Thomas Tull (30:53.060)

not only the world market, but you know,

Lex Fridman (30:55.580)

and so whatever it is that we do well,

Thomas Tull (30:58.260)

or Hollywood does well, there's something

Lex Fridman (31:02.540)

in the water, apparently.

Lex Fridman (31:03.540)

But I agree that I love movies,

Lex Fridman (31:07.820)

and I will for the rest of my days.

Thomas Tull (31:10.540)

It's interesting how creators can move

Lex Fridman (31:13.420)

back and forth now as well.

Thomas Tull (31:15.580)

That used to be a complete no no.

Lex Fridman (31:17.260)

You're either a movie guy, or you're a person,

Thomas Tull (31:20.140)

or you're a TV director, and that's that.

Lex Fridman (31:24.580)

But those lines have completely blurred.

Lex Fridman (31:27.620)

And they're also blurring, I mean,

Lex Fridman (31:29.700)

they're blurring all kinds of lines.

Thomas Tull (31:31.100)

Like they're moving to TikTok and Instagram,

Lex Fridman (31:35.180)

and I know right now it seems ridiculous

Thomas Tull (31:38.580)

to consider that these one minute things

Lex Fridman (31:43.660)

could be considered even in the same realm creatively

Thomas Tull (31:47.300)

as a film, but maybe that changes over time too.

Lex Fridman (31:50.580)

Maybe experiences can completely become fluid

Thomas Tull (31:53.220)

in terms of their size, as long as they have

Lex Fridman (31:56.780)

some deep lasting impact on you as a human being,

Thomas Tull (32:01.100)

as a consumer.

Lex Fridman (32:02.160)

Look, to me, the whole thing is about

Thomas Tull (32:06.300)

either the moving image, or even sometimes a picture

Lex Fridman (32:09.980)

will bring out an emotion, a reaction, something.

Lex Fridman (32:13.440)

So short form is harder, because you have less time

Lex Fridman (32:18.260)

to set things up and all that.

Lex Fridman (32:19.540)

But I'm sure there will be short videos

Lex Fridman (32:22.820)

and creators that come up with things,

Lex Fridman (32:24.580)

and if a moving image can get a reaction out of you,

Lex Fridman (32:29.540)

and make you feel a certain way,

Lex Fridman (32:31.140)

and stay with you, or inspire you,

Lex Fridman (32:33.780)

well, that to me is just the next evolution

Thomas Tull (32:36.400)

of whatever it's gonna be between humans

Lex Fridman (32:39.140)

and cameras, et cetera.

Thomas Tull (32:41.060)

See, I think that's why we've talked offline about this.

Lex Fridman (32:44.700)

That's why I love robots, is I think there's certain things

Thomas Tull (32:47.940)

in the short form with robots that immediately

Lex Fridman (32:51.180)

can bring out a feeling in people.

Thomas Tull (32:54.000)

There's something about our consideration

Lex Fridman (32:57.520)

of our own intelligence, of our own consciousness,

Thomas Tull (33:01.140)

of all the fears and hopes, and the beautiful things

Lex Fridman (33:04.820)

about human nature, the dark things about human nature

Thomas Tull (33:07.820)

that somehow, especially Lego robots bring out.

Lex Fridman (33:11.780)

Because we have both a fear and excitement towards that.

Thomas Tull (33:15.380)

Are these going to be our overlords,

Lex Fridman (33:17.380)

our gods that overtake humanity?

Thomas Tull (33:20.760)

Are these going to be things like horses

Lex Fridman (33:24.380)

or something like that, something that empower humanity?

Thomas Tull (33:27.140)

Like you don't know what to make sense of it.

Lex Fridman (33:28.980)

That's why they're super exciting.

Thomas Tull (33:30.900)

I agree.

Lex Fridman (33:31.740)

Speaking of robots and film, you've gone

Thomas Tull (33:35.120)

into traditional industries and disrupted them

Lex Fridman (33:38.060)

quite a few times.

Thomas Tull (33:40.300)

Was there, is there a system for deciding

Lex Fridman (33:43.060)

which industry is right for disruption?

Thomas Tull (33:45.780)

When you look at the world and see

Lex Fridman (33:49.020)

what are the big problems you would like to solve,

Lex Fridman (33:53.740)

do you have a system of how you see which problems to solve?

Lex Fridman (33:56.580)

How do you look at the world?

Thomas Tull (33:58.960)

Yeah, well, on the business side of that,

Lex Fridman (34:02.420)

so I have a holding company called Tolko,

Thomas Tull (34:04.580)

I know, very imaginatively named.

Lex Fridman (34:07.380)

Part of that is literally every name ever is now taken,

Thomas Tull (34:11.540)

registered and all that stuff.

Lex Fridman (34:14.380)

So we're a holding company.

Lex Fridman (34:16.820)

What's a holding company?

Lex Fridman (34:18.020)

So instead of being a fund that has money flowing

Thomas Tull (34:21.360)

in and out of it, and there's what's called a vintage year,

Lex Fridman (34:24.940)

I raise capital and I agree to invest that capital

Thomas Tull (34:28.620)

for so long, and then I give it back to you,

Lex Fridman (34:30.720)

which sometimes creates artificial time pressures

Lex Fridman (34:33.700)

and things like that.

Lex Fridman (34:34.540)

A holding company is more permanent capital.

Lex Fridman (34:38.140)

So the idea was, behind Tolko,

Lex Fridman (34:41.460)

was to buy almost always whole companies

Thomas Tull (34:44.820)

or majority stakes with great management teams

Lex Fridman (34:47.880)

in spaces that did not traditionally

Thomas Tull (34:50.300)

have a lot of innovation.

Lex Fridman (34:53.240)

And to have our labs group, who were data scientists,

Thomas Tull (34:57.700)

AI practitioners, engineers, machine learning, et cetera,

Lex Fridman (35:02.700)

and to be able to bring that wherewithal to that company.

Lex Fridman (35:07.340)

So to provide them with the right capital

Lex Fridman (35:10.400)

and to provide them with access to technology,

Thomas Tull (35:13.340)

that would be hard to individually recruit for that company.

Lex Fridman (35:17.820)

So I would say that the thesis was to look

Thomas Tull (35:22.460)

for industries that were large enough,

Lex Fridman (35:24.820)

that hadn't traditionally had access

Thomas Tull (35:27.220)

to that type of technology or innovation,

Lex Fridman (35:30.480)

and to try to look for companies that not only

Thomas Tull (35:35.700)

looked that part, but had management teams

Lex Fridman (35:38.780)

that embraced this and wanted to take that kind of journey.

Thomas Tull (35:41.980)

Yeah, there is quite a few industries like that,

Lex Fridman (35:44.740)

but that finding the industries and the management pair,

Thomas Tull (35:52.060)

because those industries often have

Lex Fridman (35:54.060)

a lot of old school folks who don't,

Thomas Tull (35:57.660)

it takes quite a bit of work for them

Lex Fridman (35:59.100)

to leap into technology.

Thomas Tull (36:00.860)

I work quite a bit with the autonomous vehicles

Lex Fridman (36:03.620)

and just the automotive industry.

Thomas Tull (36:06.040)

Depending on the company, there's old school folks.

Lex Fridman (36:08.840)

It's like Detroit thinking versus like,

Lex Fridman (36:11.380)

what do you call it, I don't know, California thinking.

Lex Fridman (36:15.220)

Well, I think you have to look at the nexus

Thomas Tull (36:18.780)

of two things there.

Lex Fridman (36:19.620)

One is just plain old human behavior.

Thomas Tull (36:22.620)

If I am uncomfortable and this isn't a comfort zone for me

Lex Fridman (36:27.620)

and it's not something I have as a field of expertise,

Thomas Tull (36:31.180)

I'm gonna shy away from that.

Lex Fridman (36:33.260)

Especially if I'm successful and I feel good about myself

Lex Fridman (36:36.700)

and it's a big successful company or person

Lex Fridman (36:38.660)

or whatever it might be.

Lex Fridman (36:41.540)

And the second thing is that especially

Lex Fridman (36:44.780)

if you're a public company and you're being weighed

Lex Fridman (36:46.580)

and measured every quarter, you are rewarding

Lex Fridman (36:49.580)

the managers of that company to hit metrics

Lex Fridman (36:53.420)

and to be reliable and to say, hey,

Lex Fridman (36:55.620)

I'm counting quarter to quarter

Thomas Tull (36:57.260)

that you're gonna deliver what you say.

Lex Fridman (37:00.820)

It's difficult to say, you know what, everybody,

Thomas Tull (37:03.380)

for the next two years, I wouldn't count

Lex Fridman (37:05.660)

on our financial projections at all

Thomas Tull (37:08.380)

because we're gonna reinvent what we're doing.

Lex Fridman (37:10.740)

It's gonna work in the long run and you're gonna see

Thomas Tull (37:14.060)

that this was a really smart investment

Lex Fridman (37:15.700)

five to seven years from now.

Thomas Tull (37:18.740)

That's not the way capitalism is currently wired,

Lex Fridman (37:22.800)

generally, right?

Lex Fridman (37:24.280)

And a lot of, so again, if you reward managers

Lex Fridman (37:28.180)

with yearly bonuses and stock options

Thomas Tull (37:30.540)

based and tied to stock price and all these other things,

Lex Fridman (37:35.560)

you know, and then ask them to go break stuff,

Thomas Tull (37:39.460)

that's hard, I think.

Lex Fridman (37:41.140)

So you're saying like, so the talker approach

Thomas Tull (37:46.500)

to this, the private investment is the best way

Lex Fridman (37:50.140)

or perhaps the only way to enable this kind

Thomas Tull (37:53.100)

of long term innovation, investment,

Lex Fridman (37:55.260)

taking big risks, investing in innovation.

Thomas Tull (37:57.620)

Well, look, we certainly are not, by any means,

Lex Fridman (38:01.260)

the only one doing it.

Thomas Tull (38:02.340)

I'm just saying that when you think about big companies,

Lex Fridman (38:06.460)

more successful, you know, that are in old line businesses,

Lex Fridman (38:10.900)

and I hear people sort of talk about,

Lex Fridman (38:13.380)

well, why can't they just pivot?

Thomas Tull (38:15.140)

They recognize they need to be in the technology business

Lex Fridman (38:19.380)

because it's hard, it's hard to steer a ship and turn it

Thomas Tull (38:23.140)

that big, and especially if it's not part

Lex Fridman (38:25.660)

of your DNA at that company.

Thomas Tull (38:28.700)

So, you know, I just think that what we tried to do

Lex Fridman (38:33.660)

is to enable management teams that know

Thomas Tull (38:38.980)

where they wanna go and to be patient with capital

Lex Fridman (38:43.260)

and also, again, bring innovation to bear

Thomas Tull (38:48.260)

that they have access to.

Lex Fridman (38:50.700)

There's plenty of capital structures

Thomas Tull (38:52.660)

doing interesting things.

Lex Fridman (38:54.360)

That's one of the things I love about our country.

Thomas Tull (38:57.500)

This country innovates and this country invents things,

Lex Fridman (39:01.700)

and I'm constantly in awe of just the, you know,

Thomas Tull (39:08.460)

the human ability to innovate and to iterate.

Lex Fridman (39:14.500)

You know, I get to hang around some universities,

Thomas Tull (39:18.020)

including your old shop, MIT, and it's like.

Lex Fridman (39:20.580)

I'm still there.

Thomas Tull (39:21.420)

Yeah, you're still there.

Lex Fridman (39:22.240)

Still there, still teaching there.

Thomas Tull (39:23.180)

Still teaching, but that place is like Hogwarts.

Lex Fridman (39:26.180)

I mean, it's just, it's inspiring, right?

Lex Fridman (39:30.680)

And certainly the energy in Silicon Valley,

Lex Fridman (39:34.060)

which now Austin, Texas, where we're sitting,

Thomas Tull (39:37.420)

has its own incredible ecosystem.

Lex Fridman (39:40.740)

So that's one of the things I love about America

Thomas Tull (39:45.060)

is the ability, and that really is, I think,

Lex Fridman (39:49.180)

in the American DNA, to create things and invent things,

Lex Fridman (39:53.700)

and I just, I think that's invigorating.

Lex Fridman (39:55.940)

And I think that's even bigger than capitalism,

Thomas Tull (39:58.220)

sort of the machine of how capitalism works.

Lex Fridman (40:01.460)

That's just human nature.

Thomas Tull (40:02.900)

Capitalism is just one of the ways

Lex Fridman (40:04.580)

to sort of make that human nature shine, I suppose,

Lex Fridman (40:10.020)

but it's like, you mentioned MIT.

Lex Fridman (40:12.840)

There's a drive there to invent, to innovate,

Thomas Tull (40:20.280)

that's so purely human, that human spirit

Lex Fridman (40:25.720)

to sort of build something new.

Thomas Tull (40:28.160)

It's like that hopeful, optimistic spirit,

Lex Fridman (40:30.200)

especially in the engineering space.

Thomas Tull (40:32.080)

Like if you pay attention to the internet,

Lex Fridman (40:33.640)

like Twitter and all that kind of stuff,

Thomas Tull (40:36.240)

intellectuals and so on, there's a cynicism

Lex Fridman (40:39.480)

to when we talk about stuff,

Lex Fridman (40:43.320)

but there's an optimism to when we do stuff.

Lex Fridman (40:46.900)

And the doing part, when you actually build things,

Thomas Tull (40:49.880)

especially, like you care a lot about manufacturing too,

Lex Fridman (40:52.880)

like you actually build physical products,

Thomas Tull (40:55.840)

that's where we truly shine.

Lex Fridman (40:59.280)

Yeah, no question about it.

Lex Fridman (41:01.040)

And I'm passionate about our country making stuff again,

Lex Fridman (41:06.040)

doing our own manufacturing and making sure

Thomas Tull (41:11.960)

that we don't lose the ability,

Lex Fridman (41:14.020)

not just to create things intellectually

Lex Fridman (41:17.960)

and do the world's greatest blueprints,

Lex Fridman (41:19.520)

but actually make things here.

Thomas Tull (41:22.080)

Actual factories.

Lex Fridman (41:23.080)

Yeah, that's exactly right.

Lex Fridman (41:24.280)

How do we do that?

Lex Fridman (41:26.120)

How do we bring more manufacturing to the United States?

Thomas Tull (41:30.640)

Well, there's a company that I have a big personal investment

Lex Fridman (41:34.880)

in called Rebuild with some folks

Thomas Tull (41:39.440)

that all went through the MIT school years ago.

Lex Fridman (41:45.120)

There's a good friend of mine named Jeff Wilkie

Thomas Tull (41:47.160)

who used to be at Amazon.

Lex Fridman (41:49.720)

And we all felt the same way that America needed

Thomas Tull (41:54.280)

to make sure that it didn't lose its edge in that way.

Lex Fridman (41:56.600)

So it's a company that invests

Thomas Tull (42:00.280)

in American high tech manufacturing.

Lex Fridman (42:03.380)

And I think the way that we do that is provide capital,

Thomas Tull (42:07.500)

provide training.

Lex Fridman (42:09.620)

To me, this is also fertile ground for good,

Thomas Tull (42:12.300)

sustainable, high paying jobs.

Lex Fridman (42:16.340)

And we have to make it economically feasible to do that,

Thomas Tull (42:21.980)

again, here in this country.

Lex Fridman (42:24.100)

And not to say to companies that, again,

Thomas Tull (42:26.500)

are being weighed and measured quarter by quarter.

Lex Fridman (42:28.820)

Hey, this is three times as expensive to do it here,

Lex Fridman (42:31.480)

but you should do it here.

Lex Fridman (42:33.140)

We need to innovate and we need to create processes

Lex Fridman (42:36.940)

and companies and opportunity that balance that equation.

Lex Fridman (42:42.100)

And I think as we saw during the pandemic,

Thomas Tull (42:45.860)

I don't think in this day and age you can be an isolationist.

Lex Fridman (42:48.700)

That doesn't make any sense to me.

Lex Fridman (42:51.460)

But being self reliant and self determinant

Lex Fridman (42:54.860)

and making sure that you are never in a position as a nation

Thomas Tull (43:00.420)

that we can't do basic things

Lex Fridman (43:01.860)

because we're relying on supply chain in other countries.

Lex Fridman (43:05.320)

And whether it's we're not friends anymore,

Lex Fridman (43:09.360)

or a natural disaster or a virus or something pops up,

Thomas Tull (43:13.940)

I think those are costs of doing business

Lex Fridman (43:17.180)

that we have to put into the calculus

Thomas Tull (43:20.020)

of being able to make things here.

Lex Fridman (43:22.860)

There's an extremely high cost to making supply chain

Thomas Tull (43:25.520)

resilient that we really have to consider.

Lex Fridman (43:27.860)

And so if you really consider that cost,

Thomas Tull (43:31.500)

it makes a lot of sense to invest especially long term

Lex Fridman (43:34.140)

in building up manufacturing in a way

Thomas Tull (43:37.020)

where like you're making most of the stuff in one place.

Lex Fridman (43:40.380)

Sort of bringing it all, not all,

Lex Fridman (43:44.940)

but as much in as possible.

Lex Fridman (43:47.000)

And building it almost like from scratch

Thomas Tull (43:49.860)

here in the United States.

Lex Fridman (43:50.840)

I mean, what I guess your thought is with innovation,

Thomas Tull (43:57.500)

it's possible to sort of revolutionize

Lex Fridman (43:59.660)

the way we do manufacturing.

Lex Fridman (44:00.900)

So reduce the amount of supply chain stuff

Lex Fridman (44:03.580)

and like build stuff from scratch.

Thomas Tull (44:05.260)

Like do high tech manufacturing.

Lex Fridman (44:08.780)

So like optimize all aspects of the manufacturing

Lex Fridman (44:11.740)

and all that kind of stuff.

Lex Fridman (44:13.640)

Yeah, and I think where technology is the most efficient

Lex Fridman (44:19.940)

is the human machine interface, right?

Lex Fridman (44:23.780)

It's not let's automate everything

Lex Fridman (44:25.480)

and have nobody work anywhere.

Lex Fridman (44:27.140)

I, for a long time, that's neither feasible nor desirable.

Lex Fridman (44:32.380)

But where we can enhance jobs

Lex Fridman (44:37.380)

and make that interface immensely productive

Thomas Tull (44:42.340)

with the right training and so forth,

Lex Fridman (44:43.900)

I think that's a worthwhile endeavor

Lex Fridman (44:46.260)

and something that's gonna be important to our country.

Lex Fridman (44:49.180)

Yeah, I mean, you know who you're talking to.

Thomas Tull (44:53.100)

I love human robot interaction, human machine interaction,

Lex Fridman (44:55.880)

human AI interaction.

Lex Fridman (44:57.260)

So what do you think is the role of robotics

Lex Fridman (44:59.100)

in this high tech manufacturing?

Thomas Tull (45:02.100)

Sort of like industrial robots, robotic arms,

Lex Fridman (45:04.380)

all that kind of stuff.

Thomas Tull (45:06.380)

Or even more complicated kind of robots.

Lex Fridman (45:09.380)

What do you think is the role of robotics?

Lex Fridman (45:11.640)

What do you think is the role of AI

Lex Fridman (45:13.220)

in this manufacturing future you're thinking about?

Thomas Tull (45:16.220)

Well, robotics to me is an extremely exciting field.

Lex Fridman (45:20.340)

I don't have the same expertise that you do.

Thomas Tull (45:23.060)

I have an adjacency, but not the depth of knowledge.

Lex Fridman (45:27.260)

Have never really delved deeply into it

Thomas Tull (45:29.160)

or made investments in it.

Lex Fridman (45:30.380)

But I think what's exciting about it

Thomas Tull (45:32.500)

is everything from doing jobs

Lex Fridman (45:34.980)

that are very dangerous for humans,

Thomas Tull (45:38.700)

enhancing the human experience.

Lex Fridman (45:41.540)

When you look at really repetitive labor,

Thomas Tull (45:44.900)

things that, you know, it might take away a job,

Lex Fridman (45:49.060)

but is it a good job for that person?

Thomas Tull (45:51.540)

Is, you know, spending 30 years

Lex Fridman (45:53.300)

doing something highly repetitious,

Lex Fridman (45:55.140)

is that a good experience in life?

Lex Fridman (45:58.980)

So I think, and then when you think about everything

Thomas Tull (46:02.500)

from military applications, you know, rescue,

Lex Fridman (46:06.940)

we're already seeing a bunch of those things.

Lex Fridman (46:08.980)

And then just lastly,

Lex Fridman (46:11.640)

when you talk about that human interaction with robots,

Thomas Tull (46:15.140)

when you start to have the combination,

Lex Fridman (46:17.940)

so you have some level of intelligence and interaction,

Thomas Tull (46:22.220)

I mean, that's why we always love the droids

Lex Fridman (46:25.740)

in Star Wars, right?

Thomas Tull (46:26.780)

I mean, it's exciting, it captures the imagination.

Lex Fridman (46:33.780)

And I think, look, many, many hours have been spent

Thomas Tull (46:39.500)

on debating artificial intelligence

Lex Fridman (46:42.740)

and the ramifications, if things go sideways and so forth.

Lex Fridman (46:48.100)

And I think those are all, you know,

Lex Fridman (46:50.580)

those are appropriate conversations to be having.

Thomas Tull (46:54.180)

AI is happening.

Lex Fridman (46:55.980)

I think it's actually happening slower

Thomas Tull (46:57.960)

than most people realize,

Lex Fridman (47:01.580)

because there are tasks that humans do

Thomas Tull (47:04.580)

every minute of every day,

Lex Fridman (47:06.700)

standing up without losing your sense of balance.

Thomas Tull (47:09.620)

I mean, these are really hard things,

Lex Fridman (47:12.820)

but I think there's enough investment,

Thomas Tull (47:16.660)

both in private industry as well as nation states now

Lex Fridman (47:19.820)

on artificial intelligence that it is coming.

Lex Fridman (47:23.880)

So both in the software space, in the digital space

Lex Fridman (47:27.340)

and in the physical space.

Lex Fridman (47:29.100)

So we talk about manufacturing,

Lex Fridman (47:30.620)

so industrial robotics is very true

Thomas Tull (47:33.820)

that even in the factory, even the tasks that you think

Lex Fridman (47:36.380)

are pretty basic, you know,

Thomas Tull (47:40.980)

the amount of small intuitive decisions that humans make

Lex Fridman (47:45.100)

is quite incredible.

Lex Fridman (47:46.540)

So we have to be kind of explicit about saying

Lex Fridman (47:49.740)

which tasks are actually really hard

Lex Fridman (47:52.140)

and humans are just really good at them.

Lex Fridman (47:54.660)

And so on the flip side in the digital space

Thomas Tull (47:59.260)

with social networks, we recommend our systems

Lex Fridman (48:01.620)

with all kinds of like personal assistance

Thomas Tull (48:04.740)

in terms of voice based AI systems, all of that.

Lex Fridman (48:10.340)

There's opportunities there to find niches

Thomas Tull (48:13.140)

where AI can really have a transformative effect.

Lex Fridman (48:17.260)

I think one of the places that really haven't,

Thomas Tull (48:25.080)

this is where like you're worried to say stupid things,

Lex Fridman (48:27.420)

but I believe this very much that when we have AI systems

Thomas Tull (48:32.260)

in the home currently, you have somebody like Alexa

Lex Fridman (48:34.620)

and Google Home and so on,

Thomas Tull (48:36.500)

they're kind of very basic servants.

Lex Fridman (48:40.820)

They tell you about the weather, they can play some music,

Thomas Tull (48:43.220)

they can turn the lights on and off,

Lex Fridman (48:45.060)

all the kind of like smart home stuff.

Thomas Tull (48:47.620)

I think there's a lot of value in systems

Lex Fridman (48:51.380)

that form relationships with us

Thomas Tull (48:55.060)

in the way that pets do, dogs and cats.

Lex Fridman (48:58.980)

I don't know, just for people who have cats,

Thomas Tull (49:01.340)

cats don't care about you.

Lex Fridman (49:02.500)

They really don't, they don't form any kind of relationship.

Thomas Tull (49:05.140)

I don't know why you have relationship with them.

Lex Fridman (49:07.060)

It's one way.

Thomas Tull (49:08.260)

Anyway, sorry, I threw out some shade.

Lex Fridman (49:11.940)

I'm just kidding by the way.

Thomas Tull (49:13.200)

That's a basic kind of connection you have

Lex Fridman (49:14.940)

with another living being.

Thomas Tull (49:16.940)

Then there's also just friends.

Lex Fridman (49:18.440)

You have different levels of friends,

Thomas Tull (49:20.060)

acquaintances, you have lifelong friends, all that.

Lex Fridman (49:22.580)

That friendship you have, I really believe

Thomas Tull (49:26.460)

that there is some aspect of the human experience

Lex Fridman (49:29.740)

that is deeply enriched by interacting with other beings.

Lex Fridman (49:35.420)

And for systems, computing systems,

Lex Fridman (49:40.300)

artificial intelligence systems in our world,

Thomas Tull (49:44.220)

to have the capability to engage in some of that,

Lex Fridman (49:46.940)

I think is not just an opportunity

Thomas Tull (49:49.020)

to help people grow, become better people,

Lex Fridman (49:53.580)

but it's also just a good business opportunity too.

Lex Fridman (49:56.100)

And that hasn't really been explored enough.

Lex Fridman (49:58.540)

So that to me is really, that's a whole exciting space

Thomas Tull (50:02.260)

that I think will enable better industrial robotics.

Lex Fridman (50:08.660)

It will empower a better Facebook

Thomas Tull (50:11.460)

or a better social network, a competitor to Facebook

Lex Fridman (50:14.300)

that overthrows Facebook.

Lex Fridman (50:15.740)

So it'll create better technologies

Lex Fridman (50:19.660)

that currently don't have that human robot interaction touch.

Lex Fridman (50:24.340)

So I don't know, that's super exciting to me,

Lex Fridman (50:27.740)

but that has to deal with the mess of human nature.

Thomas Tull (50:34.420)

The reason that most robotics people

Lex Fridman (50:36.980)

and AI people stay away from humans,

Thomas Tull (50:40.820)

they stay away from the human robot interaction problem,

Lex Fridman (50:43.900)

is because humans are complicated.

Thomas Tull (50:46.300)

They're messy, they're hard to control,

Lex Fridman (50:49.180)

they're hard to predict stuff about,

Thomas Tull (50:54.180)

they're hard to make sense of or like test repeatedly

Lex Fridman (50:58.680)

because one human can be drastically different

Thomas Tull (51:01.840)

from another human.

Lex Fridman (51:02.960)

And so to deal with that as a robotics problem

Thomas Tull (51:05.200)

is super hard.

Lex Fridman (51:07.240)

And so one of the questions is which problems

Lex Fridman (51:11.760)

can you remove the human from consideration

Lex Fridman (51:14.080)

when you're trying to solve the problem?

Lex Fridman (51:15.580)

So like Elon Musk is an example of somebody

Lex Fridman (51:17.720)

who believes autonomous driving,

Thomas Tull (51:20.540)

we can remove the human from consideration,

Lex Fridman (51:23.160)

we can solve autonomous driving as a robotics problem.

Thomas Tull (51:26.440)

It's stay in the lane.

Lex Fridman (51:28.360)

When there's a red light, you stop at a red light.

Thomas Tull (51:31.520)

If there is humans in the picture like pedestrians,

Lex Fridman (51:34.560)

that's a ballistics problem.

Thomas Tull (51:36.520)

It's just treat them as a moving object

Lex Fridman (51:39.540)

that has with like 90% probability

Thomas Tull (51:42.640)

keeps moving in the way they were in the past few seconds

Lex Fridman (51:45.840)

with some smaller probability that might stop or turn.

Thomas Tull (51:49.280)

Just do some basic models about them

Lex Fridman (51:51.480)

and you'll be able to do just fine.

Lex Fridman (51:53.280)

So I tend to believe that even driving

Lex Fridman (51:58.040)

has to consider the full messiness of humans.

Thomas Tull (52:01.060)

The dance, the game theoretic dance of chicken

Lex Fridman (52:03.880)

that we all do when we jaywalk,

Thomas Tull (52:07.440)

we look at the car, that car doesn't,

Lex Fridman (52:10.100)

that driver doesn't have the guts to murder me

Lex Fridman (52:12.100)

so I'm going to walk in front of it and not look at the car.

Lex Fridman (52:14.560)

We do that kind of dance and AI systems

Thomas Tull (52:17.520)

need to be able to play, do that kind of dance.

Lex Fridman (52:24.160)

In Tolko, there's the labs.

Lex Fridman (52:28.480)

So there's a data science component, there's an AI component.

Lex Fridman (52:32.280)

So how do they go into a company

Lex Fridman (52:35.800)

and help revolutionize that industry?

Lex Fridman (52:38.120)

Well, there's different examples.

Lex Fridman (52:39.840)

So one of our companies, Figs, makes healthcare workwear,

Lex Fridman (52:44.840)

started by these two brilliant women

Lex Fridman (52:47.440)

and early days helping to build the platform and recruit

Lex Fridman (52:54.240)

and make sure that everything that we did

Thomas Tull (52:59.680)

at the company embraced technology

Lex Fridman (53:03.200)

and at the same time, they were obsessive

Thomas Tull (53:05.880)

about their customer, which is doctors, nurses,

Lex Fridman (53:09.760)

healthcare workers who are putting it on the line every day

Lex Fridman (53:12.440)

and obsessive about their product.

Lex Fridman (53:13.960)

And when you have those two things come together,

Thomas Tull (53:17.200)

you get the result that we did at Figs.

Lex Fridman (53:24.560)

We have a company called Acashure,

Thomas Tull (53:26.640)

which it's AI lab and base is down here in Austin, Texas.

Lex Fridman (53:31.440)

It was an insurance,

Thomas Tull (53:33.600)

one of the largest insurance brokers in the world.

Lex Fridman (53:36.600)

And we did a deal with them

Lex Fridman (53:40.840)

and sold some of our insurance holdings

Lex Fridman (53:44.360)

that was completely AI driven.

Lex Fridman (53:47.760)

And in that case, you basically put the team

Lex Fridman (53:50.680)

inside the company, right?

Thomas Tull (53:52.680)

Because it's a massive company

Lex Fridman (53:56.080)

and we've gone into all kinds of things.

Lex Fridman (53:59.760)

So it just depends on the different situations.

Lex Fridman (54:03.760)

But the biggest thing was just to make sure

Thomas Tull (54:06.560)

whatever the company needed,

Lex Fridman (54:08.120)

they had access to the talent.

Thomas Tull (54:11.880)

Sometimes we'd build it, sometimes we'd help recruit for it.

Lex Fridman (54:15.440)

You know how in technology, it's whatever works, right?

Thomas Tull (54:18.480)

There's no one way to do things.

Lex Fridman (54:22.200)

Well, Acashure is really interesting as an example.

Lex Fridman (54:25.760)

So insurance is a fascinating space.

Lex Fridman (54:27.560)

It seems like very ripe still

Thomas Tull (54:30.320)

for disruption across the board.

Lex Fridman (54:32.600)

So how do you, it seems like a lot of the disruption

Thomas Tull (54:35.560)

has to do with almost the first dump step

Lex Fridman (54:42.040)

of we've been using mostly paper.

Thomas Tull (54:46.040)

It's not digitized.

Lex Fridman (54:47.840)

You have to basically create a infrastructure

Lex Fridman (54:51.600)

and a framework where everybody is using

Lex Fridman (54:53.520)

the same digital system, like databases

Lex Fridman (54:56.840)

and just organize the data.

Lex Fridman (54:59.000)

It seems like that's a huge leap

Thomas Tull (55:01.280)

that basically can revolutionize major industries

Lex Fridman (55:03.960)

that still hasn't been done.

Thomas Tull (55:05.480)

Insurance is obviously the great example of that.

Lex Fridman (55:08.000)

And one of the things that struck me,

Thomas Tull (55:10.760)

the founder CEO of Acashure is a guy named Greg Williams.

Lex Fridman (55:14.040)

They're out of Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Lex Fridman (55:16.160)

And as we were looking at expanding our footprint

Lex Fridman (55:18.480)

in insurance, I met with a lot of insurance executives.

Lex Fridman (55:22.280)

And they would talk about technology,

Lex Fridman (55:24.320)

but Greg truly understood the power

Thomas Tull (55:28.840)

of what would happen across actuarial sciences,

Lex Fridman (55:32.040)

predictive analytics and using machine learning

Thomas Tull (55:37.280)

to really run every aspect of your business.

Lex Fridman (55:39.560)

And then automating a lot of the,

Thomas Tull (55:42.440)

just the back office tedious steps.

Lex Fridman (55:45.560)

And as you said, one of the things that was great for us,

Thomas Tull (55:48.720)

they already had a data collection system and department.

Lex Fridman (55:54.600)

So it was much easier to pivot.

Lex Fridman (55:58.040)

And I'm very excited about the future of that company.

Lex Fridman (56:01.000)

It's, they're doing some pretty innovative,

Thomas Tull (56:06.240)

groundbreaking things.

Lex Fridman (56:07.440)

And those are the things that I like doing, right?

Thomas Tull (56:11.040)

Is that, yes, I wanna make money.

Lex Fridman (56:15.400)

Just, that's what that is.

Lex Fridman (56:17.320)

But at the same time,

Lex Fridman (56:19.000)

what did you do with your time on earth, right?

Thomas Tull (56:21.600)

Did you do anything to leave any kind of mark

Lex Fridman (56:24.360)

that you did anything interesting?

Thomas Tull (56:27.680)

I can only speak for myself.

Lex Fridman (56:29.480)

There are many more ways to measure one's life.

Lex Fridman (56:33.400)

And I can only speak about how I think about things.

Lex Fridman (56:37.920)

I grew up poor in upstate New York with a single mom

Lex Fridman (56:41.320)

and watched her work a couple of jobs

Lex Fridman (56:43.320)

and had to, from a young age, shovel snow and mow lawns

Lex Fridman (56:49.680)

and do all kinds of things to help her

Lex Fridman (56:52.280)

make sure the lights weren't turned off in our little place.

Lex Fridman (56:55.320)

And so that's just something

Lex Fridman (56:57.360)

that I've always been driven towards.

Lex Fridman (57:00.280)

And I just, I have really eclectic tastes and interests.

Lex Fridman (57:07.120)

And it's just been an interesting journey.

Lex Fridman (57:11.320)

So help be part of and help enable

Lex Fridman (57:14.800)

some cool new creations across the board,

Thomas Tull (57:19.880)

like film, music, AI, manufacturing,

Lex Fridman (57:24.880)

just insurance, all the specific industries

Thomas Tull (57:31.160)

that you disrupted, yeah.

Lex Fridman (57:33.200)

Small tangent, back to your childhood with your mom.

Thomas Tull (57:39.240)

Any memories kind of stand out,

Lex Fridman (57:42.680)

stick with you as something

Lex Fridman (57:46.040)

that helped define who you are as a man?

Lex Fridman (57:49.160)

Yeah, even though the university and college experience

Thomas Tull (57:53.280)

was not part of the family tree,

Lex Fridman (57:58.160)

and we had no connections, I didn't understand,

Thomas Tull (58:01.480)

I didn't know what a trust fund was or prep school,

Lex Fridman (58:03.800)

I didn't know what any of that was.

Lex Fridman (58:07.040)

But my mom from a young age would always say,

Lex Fridman (58:10.920)

you know, you're gonna go to college.

Thomas Tull (58:12.160)

There's no, you know, if you choose to,

Lex Fridman (58:15.320)

and I think from a young age,

Thomas Tull (58:17.000)

that was just an expectation that I had

Lex Fridman (58:21.080)

and that she instilled and the work ethic.

Thomas Tull (58:23.240)

I watched her.

Lex Fridman (58:24.720)

And then my grandmother was a janitor,

Thomas Tull (58:28.920)

a cleaning lady in a hospital for 50 years.

Lex Fridman (58:31.800)

And then I remember there were times of, you know,

Thomas Tull (58:36.400)

I'm probably 10 years old, it's freezing cold out.

Lex Fridman (58:39.480)

And if I don't go out and shovel six driveways,

Thomas Tull (58:42.840)

we don't have enough money to pay the bill.

Lex Fridman (58:45.040)

So I don't know, I'm not a psychologist,

Lex Fridman (58:48.400)

so I don't know how that manifests itself in my life today.

Lex Fridman (58:52.840)

But I think the grit to say,

Thomas Tull (58:57.880)

I'm not in the mood to do this, I don't wanna do this,

Lex Fridman (59:01.560)

but that's the work that needs to be done.

Lex Fridman (59:04.400)

And no excuses, not I'm a victim

Lex Fridman (59:08.400)

and I'm gonna sit around and talk about,

Thomas Tull (59:10.240)

no, it is what it is,

Lex Fridman (59:12.200)

and you have to get done what you need to get done.

Lex Fridman (59:15.000)

And again, I think it's,

Lex Fridman (59:19.200)

you can never fully put yourself in someone else's shoes

Thomas Tull (59:22.400)

or experience, so I don't know what that is or feels like.

Lex Fridman (59:25.440)

But for me, those were two, I think,

Thomas Tull (59:28.600)

formative things that were important in my childhood.

Lex Fridman (59:33.800)

So that's pretty, the reality of life like that

Thomas Tull (59:37.000)

is pretty humbling.

Lex Fridman (59:38.360)

You still, you've been so exceptionally successful

Thomas Tull (59:41.800)

that it's easy to get soft now.

Lex Fridman (59:45.120)

How do you get humbled these days?

Thomas Tull (59:49.240)

By getting up.

Lex Fridman (59:50.560)

You know, I think for me personally,

Thomas Tull (59:55.360)

trying to push the envelope

Lex Fridman (59:57.360)

and being weighed and measured, right?

Thomas Tull (59:59.240)

That's why I always loved sports too.