Niels Jorgensen: New York Firefighters and the Heroes of 9/11

Lex Fridman (01:32.080)

of the second plane hitting the towers,

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my sense of hope had changed.

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I understood that the 21st century,

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like the century before, would too have its tragedies,

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its evildoers, its wars, and its suffering.

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And unlike the history books,

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these stories will involve all of us.

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They will involve me in however small

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and insignificant a role,

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but one that nevertheless carries the responsibility

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to help.

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I became an American that day, a citizen of the world.

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I felt the common humanity in all of us.

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I felt the unity and the love in the days that followed.

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And I think most of the world shared in this feeling

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that we are all in this together.

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Evil cannot defeat the human spirit.

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There were many heroes sung and unsung on that day

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and in the years after.

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Often politicians fail to rightfully honor the service

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and sacrifice of these heroes.

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There's much I could say about that,

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but I don't want to waste my words

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on the failures of weak leaders.

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Instead, I want to say thank you

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to the men and women who rushed to Ground Zero to help,

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who put on a uniform to serve,

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who make me proud to be an American and a human being,

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and give me hope about the future of our civilization

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here on a small spinning rock

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that despite the long odds

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keeps kindling the fire of human consciousness and love.

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This is the Lex Friedman podcast

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and here is my conversation with Niels Jorgensen.

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Take me through the day of September 11th, 2001

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as you experienced it, as you lived it.

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September 11th, 2001 was a bright, beautiful,

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sunny Tuesday morning.

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It was a late summer.

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There's a lot of folks who go to the beaches in New Jersey

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and call it the short summer.

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Everybody's left there for Labor Day,

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but it's still beautiful enough to enjoy the weather.

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I left my house about 6.30 in the morning

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and my four and a half year old daughter said to me,

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daddy, which truck are you driving today, the fire truck,

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the oil truck, or the boar's head truck?

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Because I had three jobs at the time.

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Most New York City firefighters and police officers, EMS,

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we don't make the most amount of money.

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So in order to live in that city, you have to hustle.

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And my wife stayed at home raising the children.

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So my daughter said, oh, so you should be safe

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because you're on the oil truck.

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I told her I was going on the oil truck that day.

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So she said, you should be safe today, daddy.

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So I left and worked for this great company

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on the North Shore, Staten Island, Quinlan Fuel.

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Very nice people, treated me very well.

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And it was my first day back actually for the winter season.

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Usually get laid off a couple months in the summer

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because things, you know, too hot to need oil.

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So I took the truck, started my route that day

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and plane to New Jersey.

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And plane hit the tower.

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So initially I'm like, oh, it's probably

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some silly Lear jet pilot.

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And he veered off track to get a better picture

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for a client and he hit the building.

Niels Jorgensen (04:50.600)

Probably hit a, you know, bad turbulence, gust of wind.

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It's very windy down in that area in Manhattan.

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So that was my first thought.

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Can we pause there for a second?

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So 6.30 a.m. you wake up, you leave,

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and then the plane hits at 8.45 a.m.

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It's just interesting how you phrase it.

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So how did you hear that a plane hit something?

Niels Jorgensen (05:16.720)

I'm a big news radio guy, news guy, bit of a buff.

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I've been that way since I was a kid

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and I had the news radio on the local New York radio station.

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And as I was driving the truck,

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I heard, you know, an emergency report.

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This just in, aircraft has just struck

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the World Trade Center.

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And where Quinlan's is located,

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it's on the north rim of Staten Island,

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which is right on New York Harbor.

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And you could see Statue of Liberty,

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you know, a mile or two away in your distance.

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And then past that is the towers.

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So I just literally stopped the truck and looked out

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and I saw the smoke.

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So there was smoke?

Niels Jorgensen (05:57.280)

Oh, it was dark, black smoke.

Lex Fridman (05:58.640)

It was just, yeah, I mean,

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it was burning fully at that point.

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Did you have fear of what the hell happened?

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Or is it? I was initially scared

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for anybody involved.

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I realized, I said, there's gonna be lots of fatalities,

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obviously, depending on the size of the aircraft.

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And, you know, the business day there

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had started probably at 8, 8.30.

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So those buildings should have been packed at that moment.

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So that was a thought that crossed my mind.

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But from our being responder perspective,

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if you're off duty, normally you do not go to a scene

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that they don't want you to

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because of accountability and safety.

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The on duty platoon will handle it.

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And if it's something very horrific,

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then they will have something called a recall,

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which is any police firefighter or EMS personnel

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is obligated to go to their command immediately,

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check in with, you know, their command to get their gear

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and stand by and await orders for deployment

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or to remain in that command for routine duties.

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How often throughout history have there been recalls?

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I believe the one prior to that was like in the 1968 riots,

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possibly, and then maybe in the 70s,

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there was another blackout and riots.

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And I remember my dad talking about it.

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And he actually always said,

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just remember if something bad's going down,

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don't just rush in, you will wait the recall.

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Or at the very least, if there isn't a recall,

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you get to your firehouse.

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And because if you show up somewhere,

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there's a good chance that no one knows you're there.

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And now you, in your well intended movements,

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you get lost or trapped or no one's looking for you.

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So that's the whole thing with, you know, checking in.

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And now you're with a squad or, you know, group of guys

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and everyone knows, you know,

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hey, there's Nels, there's Lex.

Niels Jorgensen (07:58.520)

Okay, they're on, you know, this team.

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So I said, all right, they're not gonna need us.

Niels Jorgensen (08:05.560)

It's probably gonna be a fifth alarm.

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And you know, there'll be 250 firefighters there.

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They'll handle it.

Lex Fridman (08:11.200)

It's gonna be a bad day for those guys,

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but you know, our guys take on some heavy stuff

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and they'll be fine.

Niels Jorgensen (08:18.400)

A few minutes later, the second plane hit

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and I knew immediately, I'm like, okay, we're under attack.

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So I just flew the truck back in.

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I told my boss, I have to go.

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He understood, he knew something was way wrong

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and I just was flying.

Niels Jorgensen (08:35.640)

At the time, I actually had a yellow Volkswagen Beetle,

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kind of a goofy car to be driving, but I loved it.

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So for people who are just listening,

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you're kind of a big guy.

Niels Jorgensen (08:43.880)

Well, yeah, I definitely need to lose about 50 pounds.

Lex Fridman (08:47.200)

No, I don't mean in that way, your frame, big hands.

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As my beloved friend, Bobby Adams would say to me,

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I was driving around in a clown wagon

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and he also says, I have a waving hairdo, waving bye bye.

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So thanks, Bobby.

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But yeah, he's a great friend.

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Yeah, so I took the Volkswagen and I flew in

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and I was heading over to Verrazano Bridge

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and hit the Brooklyn Queens Expressway.

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And my phone rang and my wife normally doesn't curse

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or raise a voice and she was yelling at me.

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And she said, don't go in there, go to your firehouse.

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Well, first she asked, well, she knew I was on the way,

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but she just wanted to know where.

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And I said, I'm on the curve, which is 65th Street

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on the Brooklyn Queens Expressway called Dead Man's Curve.

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We actually used to do a lot of car wrecks up there.

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And I was hitting that curve pretty fast.

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And then right around the curve is the exit to the firehouse.

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And I had to decide, well, am I driving right in

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to the battery tunnel to the city

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or am I going to the firehouse?

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And then I said, but I have no gear.

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I'm gonna be ineffective.

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How do I show up with no gear, no protection, you know?

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So she said, do what your dad would follow the recall,

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go to the firehouse.

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And I hung up the phone, said, I love you, gotta go.

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And I did, I went to the firehouse

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and I'm glad I listened to her.

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I had my father ringing in my ears.

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My dad, beautiful guy, he's 82.

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He did 34 years in the New York City Fire Department.

Niels Jorgensen (10:16.200)

He came down on end stage, non

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and he's 38 back in, going on 39, 1978.

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And this guy, he's my hero.

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He was gonna die, they sent him home.

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They said, there's really not much we can do.

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Go get your affairs in order.

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And he says, but doc, I have three young kids.

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And she called him a couple hours later.

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She said, I got in touch with Sloan Kettering

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and they have a new drug.

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So I'll take you to the hospital.

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and do the same exact reverse route

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and he'd get to the cancer center

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and my mom would meet him and he'd get his infusion

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and within two hours he'd be violently ill

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for a few days, really badly ill.

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And I just remember, yeah, I was 10 years old

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and he just had to have the room darkened out

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and he'd be so sick and I'd just go in

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and wipe the vomit on his face,

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just try to give him a little water

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but he couldn't take it down because he'd throw it up.

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And maybe on Saturday he'd start coming around a little bit,

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drink down a little bit of tea

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and on Sunday morning he'd put his robe on

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and he'd go down, mom would make him black coffee and toast

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and he'd sit up, watch the news, watch a game

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and then Monday morning he'd go back to work.

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He did that for four years.

Lex Fridman (12:41.500)

And he's 82 and he's still here.

Niels Jorgensen (12:43.880)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (12:45.940)

You said that your dad's a man of a few words

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but when he talks, they're profound.

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So what words were ringing in your ear

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when you were driving?

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I just always remember him saying,

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kid, they give the recall, you go to the firehouse,

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you don't go where you think you should,

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you go to the firehouse, you follow your orders.

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So do the smart thing, do your job.

Niels Jorgensen (13:07.100)

Yes, sir.

Lex Fridman (13:07.940)

And every time we'd hang up the phone,

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it's fireman talk, he'd say, I love you, keep low.

Lex Fridman (13:14.060)

My dad couldn't tell me he loved me

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until I told him when I first got on a fire

Lex Fridman (13:19.340)

upon when I was 22 and my dad grew up in a tough household.

Niels Jorgensen (13:22.740)

My granddad was a good man, but a tormented man.

Lex Fridman (13:25.820)

He was sent away from home at 12 years old.

Niels Jorgensen (13:30.340)

He was from Denmark and I'm named after him, Grandpa Nils.

Lex Fridman (13:34.580)

And I think his demons took up a large part of his life.

Niels Jorgensen (13:39.100)

His anger, whatever it was, his fear.

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We got the sense that maybe when he was a child,

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he was an apprentice baker,

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living with strangers, working for them.

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And we think maybe he was abused

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and that's why he took it out on my dad

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and my grandma and my aunts.

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But they made it up to each other

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at the end of my granddad's life.

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My granddad turned out to be the best grandfather ever.

Niels Jorgensen (14:04.660)

I think he tried to heal and heal everyone

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by his change of behavior.

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So he's proof that you can change,

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you can improve if you work on it.

Lex Fridman (14:14.280)

But I know I'm going off track here, but.

Lex Fridman (14:16.900)

But you were man enough in your,

Niels Jorgensen (14:18.100)

you say in your 20s to tell your dad.

Lex Fridman (14:19.660)

To my dad, yeah.

Lex Fridman (14:20.500)

And my dad, I got on a job.

Lex Fridman (14:23.740)

He said, how'd it go, kid?

Niels Jorgensen (14:25.220)

That was the tour, we called it Tour of Duty.

Lex Fridman (14:27.580)

I said, oh, dad, it was great, it was great, I love it.

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And he goes, well, just remember, you keep low,

Lex Fridman (14:32.660)

you always keep low.

Lex Fridman (14:34.220)

And keep low means you stay down below the flames,

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if a room flashes over and it's burning,

Niels Jorgensen (14:40.540)

if you stay up high, you're gonna get burned badly.

Lex Fridman (14:42.700)

But if you get down on your belly and you crawl,

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you'll get out.

Lex Fridman (14:47.900)

So he'd always say that when he'd hang up the phone.

Lex Fridman (14:49.980)

And I said, well, I love you, pop.

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And he says, well, thanks, kid.

Niels Jorgensen (14:53.380)

I said, well, you can say it too.

Lex Fridman (14:57.300)

Oh, nice, you pressured him.

Lex Fridman (14:58.540)

And he did, and he said it.

Lex Fridman (14:59.860)

And now every time we talk, he says it.

Niels Jorgensen (15:01.580)

So, you know, they talk about masculinity and whatnot.

Lex Fridman (15:06.060)

And my dad is one of those tough, tough guys

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with a soft edge.

Lex Fridman (15:10.340)

And that's how he brought me up, you know,

Niels Jorgensen (15:14.380)

to be a protector.

Lex Fridman (15:15.740)

I hate bullies.

Niels Jorgensen (15:16.580)

I was bullied really badly as a kid,

Lex Fridman (15:18.740)

and I really hated it.

Lex Fridman (15:21.220)

And now I find myself sometimes throwing myself

Lex Fridman (15:24.700)

into situations to protect people that are being,

Niels Jorgensen (15:28.220)

you know, violated and hurt.

Lex Fridman (15:30.220)

And I just can't walk away from it.

Lex Fridman (15:32.820)

But that's my dad.

Lex Fridman (15:33.780)

My dad was that, you know, just a great guy.

Lex Fridman (15:36.500)

But anyway, yeah.

Lex Fridman (15:37.340)

You still listen to, therefore, see,

Niels Jorgensen (15:39.300)

you probably went to rush right to the towers,

Lex Fridman (15:43.140)

but you went.

Niels Jorgensen (15:43.980)

Yeah, so anyway, I got, I did, I listened to him.

Lex Fridman (15:46.300)

I listened to my wife.

Niels Jorgensen (15:47.140)

I went to the firehouse, and it was really strange.

Lex Fridman (15:49.020)

It was eerie because the computer dispatch system

Niels Jorgensen (15:52.460)

was still beeping, which meant it sent a dispatch,

Lex Fridman (15:56.580)

and the truck received it.

Niels Jorgensen (15:58.660)

Ladder 114, my truck company received it,

Lex Fridman (16:01.300)

and they left, they were gone.

Lex Fridman (16:03.180)

So it was this beautiful old building built in the 1880s

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with a spiral staircase, just a narrow old brick garage,

Lex Fridman (16:11.700)

and it was empty.

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And I just heard the computer chirping.

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And I looked down on a ticket, and it said,

Lex Fridman (16:17.220)

Ladder 114, respond, the Vessian West World Trade Center

Niels Jorgensen (16:20.620)

aircraft into building.

Lex Fridman (16:23.220)

And I said, oh, God, I just hope they're not on a death ride

Niels Jorgensen (16:26.100)

because this now was two towers, and they were burning.

Lex Fridman (16:31.740)

They were free burning, and I knew

Niels Jorgensen (16:33.460)

this was really, really bad.

Lex Fridman (16:35.780)

And I got on the phone, and I called command right away.

Niels Jorgensen (16:38.780)

I called the 40th Battalion, and Chief's aide just said, look,

Lex Fridman (16:43.180)

get 12 guys.

Niels Jorgensen (16:44.020)

Sign them in to the journal.

Lex Fridman (16:45.860)

There's a journal of daily events.

Niels Jorgensen (16:48.340)

Everything that takes place in the firehouse 24 seven

Lex Fridman (16:50.980)

has to be logged.

Lex Fridman (16:53.540)

And I logged myself as coming in, reporting for duty.

Lex Fridman (16:57.820)

And as the guys came in, I logged them in.

Lex Fridman (17:00.060)

And then one of our lieutenants took command.

Lex Fridman (17:03.780)

We grabbed up a bunch of gear, and they basically

Niels Jorgensen (17:05.900)

told us, get 12 guys, get a city bus,

Lex Fridman (17:09.380)

and get down to the battery tunnel they said

Niels Jorgensen (17:13.700)

would probably be closed.

Lex Fridman (17:15.260)

There was threats it was going to be blown up

Niels Jorgensen (17:17.660)

to get to the Brooklyn Bridge.

Lex Fridman (17:20.340)

And so we did.

Niels Jorgensen (17:22.820)

We got a city bus.

Lex Fridman (17:23.900)

We flagged it down, and the bus driver said, I'm sorry.

Niels Jorgensen (17:26.300)

I can't give you the bus.

Lex Fridman (17:27.380)

I will drive you.

Lex Fridman (17:28.340)

And he took us, and we stopped at Engine 201,

Lex Fridman (17:30.900)

which is just about a quarter mile down the road from us.

Niels Jorgensen (17:35.620)

That's our affiliated engine company,

Lex Fridman (17:37.740)

and my childhood best friend here, Johnny Schardt,

Niels Jorgensen (17:44.580)

he was assigned there, and he was on shift.

Lex Fridman (17:46.460)

And then they went through the tunnel.

Lex Fridman (17:51.300)

And we picked up those guys, the off duty guys from 201,

Lex Fridman (17:55.500)

and then we kept going down Fourth Avenue,

Lex Fridman (17:57.300)

and we picked up 239's crew.

Lex Fridman (18:00.220)

And then we hightailed it down the bridge,

Lex Fridman (18:01.860)

and there was a lot of traffic.

Lex Fridman (18:04.020)

There was a lot of people fleeing,

Niels Jorgensen (18:05.900)

coming over the bridge in waves, so it affected the inbound.

Lex Fridman (18:11.340)

What was the mood like among the crew?

Niels Jorgensen (18:14.220)

It was somber, because just prior to getting on the bus,

Lex Fridman (18:17.460)

the first tower went down.

Lex Fridman (18:20.180)

So we figured that I heard 114, my lieutenant, Dennis Oberg,

Lex Fridman (18:27.100)

heard him on the radio.

Lex Fridman (18:28.020)

And he said, 114, Manhattan, we're on your frequency.

Lex Fridman (18:34.380)

What do you need us?

Lex Fridman (18:35.260)

And they said, Tally Ho, which is our nickname.

Lex Fridman (18:38.380)

Tally Ho, respond to the Vessian West to the command post

Lex Fridman (18:42.140)

and receive your orders.

Lex Fridman (18:44.260)

And I heard Dennis say, Tally Ho, 10 4.

Lex Fridman (18:47.460)

And Dennis, a little while after that,

Lex Fridman (18:52.660)

they were proceeding to go into, I believe it was,

Niels Jorgensen (18:57.060)

I get this mixed up, and I'm sorry.

Lex Fridman (18:58.460)

I should know this by the back of my hand,

Lex Fridman (19:00.260)

but sometimes it's just such a haze.

Lex Fridman (19:02.340)

But the second tower hit was the first one to go down.

Lex Fridman (19:06.620)

And they were heading over to go in it.

Lex Fridman (19:08.900)

And all of a sudden, he looked up,

Lex Fridman (19:10.540)

and he saw what he thought to be disintegration.

Lex Fridman (19:12.900)

And he turned the guys around.

Niels Jorgensen (19:14.420)

He said, run.

Lex Fridman (19:15.020)

Just run.

Niels Jorgensen (19:15.540)

Don't look back.

Lex Fridman (19:16.260)

Don't look up.

Niels Jorgensen (19:16.900)

Go.

Lex Fridman (19:18.180)

They sprinted as fast as they could.

Lex Fridman (19:20.340)

And they dove under a fire truck.

Lex Fridman (19:23.620)

And the guys that were sprinting behind him 40 feet away

Niels Jorgensen (19:26.340)

were underneath a pile that was 10 stories deep.

Lex Fridman (19:29.860)

They were killed.

Lex Fridman (19:31.940)

And just further into that pile was his rookie son, Dennis's

Lex Fridman (19:37.020)

rookie son, who was working in Ladder 105, which

Niels Jorgensen (19:39.660)

was my first command under the department.

Lex Fridman (19:42.140)

I worked for it, proudly served for three years.

Lex Fridman (19:45.940)

And just aside them was my childhood best friend,

Lex Fridman (19:49.060)

John Chard, and his crew from 201.

Lex Fridman (19:53.300)

And they were all killed.

Lex Fridman (19:59.260)

And a strange irony to that is that Dennis's son, Dennis Jr.,

Niels Jorgensen (1:00:00.320)

when they needed an extra guy.

Lex Fridman (1:00:03.360)

And someone came banging on the firehouse door

Lex Fridman (1:00:06.840)

and in the tenement apartment next door,

Lex Fridman (1:00:09.080)

they said there was an older woman that was unconscious.

Lex Fridman (1:00:12.480)

So we dispatched ourselves

Lex Fridman (1:00:14.840)

and we ran over with a medical kit

Lex Fridman (1:00:17.120)

and it was an elderly woman laying there on the bed.

Lex Fridman (1:00:20.440)

And she was obviously not breathing.

Niels Jorgensen (1:00:23.640)

She was obviously in cardiac arrest

Lex Fridman (1:00:26.120)

and an older gentleman that was holding her hand,

Niels Jorgensen (1:00:29.360)

just inconsolably crying.

Lex Fridman (1:00:31.880)

And it turned out it was her husband

Lex Fridman (1:00:34.080)

and they were married for 65 years.

Lex Fridman (1:00:37.040)

And normally we would just respectfully ask

Niels Jorgensen (1:00:40.760)

the family members to just step aside

Lex Fridman (1:00:43.300)

and let us do our work.

Lex Fridman (1:00:45.120)

And I realized that he wouldn't leave her side.

Lex Fridman (1:00:47.940)

So I kind of gave the crew a wink

Lex Fridman (1:00:49.960)

and they were doing CPR on what they had to.

Lex Fridman (1:00:53.600)

And I just let him keep holding her hand.

Lex Fridman (1:00:57.000)

And I said, sir, if you, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:00:58.520)

could you just come over just a little bit so we can work?

Lex Fridman (1:01:02.220)

And I held his hand as he held hers.

Lex Fridman (1:01:06.480)

And I said, sir, I said, do you have faith?

Lex Fridman (1:01:09.860)

And he did.

Lex Fridman (1:01:10.700)

And I said, would you like to pray with me for your wife?

Lex Fridman (1:01:14.980)

And he said, I would like to.

Lex Fridman (1:01:17.300)

So we said the Lord's prayer

Lex Fridman (1:01:19.200)

and you know, I just asked God to protect her and bless her.

Lex Fridman (1:01:23.140)

And I think he realized that she didn't have a chance,

Lex Fridman (1:01:27.240)

but we still gave her that chance.

Lex Fridman (1:01:30.960)

And we, you know, got her in the ambulance

Lex Fridman (1:01:32.540)

and maybe it was wrong to try to make it look

Lex Fridman (1:01:35.640)

like we could save her, but you know,

Niels Jorgensen (1:01:37.000)

you can't really not try.

Lex Fridman (1:01:41.120)

But the one beautiful moment was he thanked me

Lex Fridman (1:01:44.800)

and he was almost okay with it at that point.

Lex Fridman (1:01:49.800)

Like he wasn't as upset.

Niels Jorgensen (1:01:51.040)

He wasn't as distraught because I tried to just humanize

Lex Fridman (1:01:54.680)

that situation of what we were trying to do.

Niels Jorgensen (1:01:56.780)

We were trying to do our best,

Lex Fridman (1:01:58.060)

but we also tried to be compassionate to his sadness.

Lex Fridman (1:02:01.760)

And it just, I walked away just feeling so good,

Lex Fridman (1:02:06.040)

even though it was a tragic situation.

Lex Fridman (1:02:07.920)

And she did pass that, you know, he came by to, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:02:11.800)

thank us days later and just heartbreaking.

Lex Fridman (1:02:15.240)

But you know, there's just, it's just happens many,

Lex Fridman (1:02:17.960)

many times throughout the country every day.

Niels Jorgensen (1:02:21.000)

People get that opportunity as a responder to be

Lex Fridman (1:02:23.480)

that last bridge to the family and the loved one.

Lex Fridman (1:02:27.320)

And you only get that opportunity once sometimes

Lex Fridman (1:02:30.880)

and you really have to, to me,

Niels Jorgensen (1:02:32.980)

it's like your moment to shine.

Lex Fridman (1:02:34.260)

You know, you could just be very,

Niels Jorgensen (1:02:35.520)

very dismissive and very rude,

Lex Fridman (1:02:37.320)

or you could be compassionate and just show,

Niels Jorgensen (1:02:40.320)

hey, I have a mom, I have a grandma, I have, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:02:43.360)

and just in your mind, pretend that that's

Niels Jorgensen (1:02:45.760)

who you're working on and that's who you're with.

Lex Fridman (1:02:47.520)

So that moment of compassion, that moment of empathy,

Niels Jorgensen (1:02:50.240)

even if his brief can be the thing that saves the person

Lex Fridman (1:02:54.160)

from suffering, make the difference between suffering

Lex Fridman (1:02:59.200)

and overcoming in the face of tragedy.

Lex Fridman (1:03:01.920)

Yes, like I felt that even though obviously his loss

Niels Jorgensen (1:03:05.080)

was still huge, it just made it a little more bearable

Lex Fridman (1:03:08.120)

and, you know, tried to just take his grief down

Niels Jorgensen (1:03:11.240)

to a lower level and it made me feel,

Lex Fridman (1:03:14.880)

just feel really good about doing it.

Niels Jorgensen (1:03:17.000)

That's a powerful way to see the job of a first responder.

Lex Fridman (1:03:19.760)

Of course, you have to deal with certain aspects

Niels Jorgensen (1:03:21.560)

of the tragedy, but it's to provide somebody

Lex Fridman (1:03:24.240)

with that moment of compassion.

Niels Jorgensen (1:03:26.920)

Yeah, and you know, I made it a little habit

Lex Fridman (1:03:29.200)

because sometimes with faith,

Niels Jorgensen (1:03:30.620)

it's a little bit of a tricky subject.

Lex Fridman (1:03:32.260)

So every time I had someone who died,

Niels Jorgensen (1:03:35.440)

which unfortunately was many, many times,

Lex Fridman (1:03:37.640)

I would just touch their hand

Lex Fridman (1:03:40.240)

and just say a little quick prayer and just say,

Lex Fridman (1:03:42.080)

look, you know, I hope you're moving on to a better place.

Niels Jorgensen (1:03:44.960)

I hope if you did have faith that it's strong as you depart

Lex Fridman (1:03:50.160)

and if you didn't have faith,

Niels Jorgensen (1:03:51.280)

I hope maybe at your last moment that you found some

Lex Fridman (1:03:53.720)

and you just found some closure.

Lex Fridman (1:03:55.280)

So that was just my little ritual, I think.

Lex Fridman (1:03:58.520)

I just, you know, I felt it was important

Niels Jorgensen (1:04:01.240)

that that person, even though they were a stranger,

Lex Fridman (1:04:03.760)

just had someone there just sort of hoping

Niels Jorgensen (1:04:06.840)

for the best for them in their last moments.

Lex Fridman (1:04:10.200)

You mentioned cancer.

Niels Jorgensen (1:04:12.560)

You had a rare leukemia due to all the work

Lex Fridman (1:04:20.240)

that you did at Ground Zero.

Lex Fridman (1:04:22.520)

Can you maybe talk to the experience

Lex Fridman (1:04:25.900)

of just breathing through those days

Lex Fridman (1:04:28.960)

and what that was like, being unable to breathe,

Lex Fridman (1:04:32.300)

being overwhelmed by all of the dust in the air?

Niels Jorgensen (1:04:37.300)

Yes, the first day especially, we didn't have equipment.

Lex Fridman (1:04:43.400)

We didn't have breathing apparatus

Lex Fridman (1:04:45.780)

and then we were handed little 69 cent

Lex Fridman (1:04:49.160)

hardware store dust mask, you know,

Niels Jorgensen (1:04:50.880)

it was a little thin paint mask

Lex Fridman (1:04:52.160)

that would just get sweated up

Lex Fridman (1:04:54.580)

and sticking to your face within 30 seconds.

Lex Fridman (1:04:57.520)

So you would just, they were useless.

Lex Fridman (1:05:00.520)

And what you wound up feeling like was

Lex Fridman (1:05:02.800)

that you swallowed a box of razor blades

Niels Jorgensen (1:05:05.160)

because there was glass and there was cement

Lex Fridman (1:05:07.280)

and it was just so caustic.

Lex Fridman (1:05:09.440)

And I remember that night, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:05:12.480)

when we went back just to get some medical relief

Niels Jorgensen (1:05:15.520)

for the few hours, we were walking up the hill

Lex Fridman (1:05:18.960)

to the firehouse because they dropped us off

Niels Jorgensen (1:05:20.880)

like a block away down at Engine 201's quarters

Lex Fridman (1:05:25.320)

and one of the older firemen as we're walking up the block,

Niels Jorgensen (1:05:29.400)

we're all struggling, we're all having a hard time breathing

Lex Fridman (1:05:31.720)

and just, I mean, I felt like I was dying,

Niels Jorgensen (1:05:33.920)

literally, it was pretty bad.

Lex Fridman (1:05:36.920)

And I just remember the one guy going out,

Niels Jorgensen (1:05:39.020)

we're all dead.

Lex Fridman (1:05:39.860)

And I said, no, no, we made it, we made it.

Niels Jorgensen (1:05:41.420)

He goes, no, you don't get it, kid.

Lex Fridman (1:05:42.680)

He said, we just breathed in poison after poison for hours

Lex Fridman (1:05:47.520)

and then that went into days and then went into months.

Lex Fridman (1:05:50.800)

He says, we're all dead, man, this is gonna take us all.

Lex Fridman (1:05:54.120)

And I thought he was crazy and then now years later,

Lex Fridman (1:05:58.160)

like starting in 03 or 04,

Niels Jorgensen (1:06:00.760)

guys just started coming down with these really rare

Lex Fridman (1:06:04.160)

and advanced cancers and then it just stopped

Niels Jorgensen (1:06:08.440)

being a coincidence with the number of guys

Lex Fridman (1:06:11.280)

and they were young, one of the first guys, John McNamara,

Niels Jorgensen (1:06:14.640)

he was 33 or 34 and he came down colon cancer

Lex Fridman (1:06:18.940)

and it took him quickly in 2000, he was in 2005.

Lex Fridman (1:06:23.580)

And I kind of said to friends and family,

Lex Fridman (1:06:28.420)

I said, I feel like I'm running through a minefield

Lex Fridman (1:06:30.420)

and I wonder when I'm gonna step on my mind

Lex Fridman (1:06:33.280)

because everybody's gonna get sick.

Lex Fridman (1:06:35.940)

And I wasn't feeling well from 2008 on,

Lex Fridman (1:06:39.440)

I couldn't put my finger on it, but I just wasn't right.

Lex Fridman (1:06:44.660)

And in 2011, I failed my medical,

Lex Fridman (1:06:49.500)

my bloods came back horrifically wrong

Lex Fridman (1:06:53.400)

and they pulled me off the truck,

Lex Fridman (1:06:55.600)

but they strung me out for a month,

Niels Jorgensen (1:06:58.160)

the doctors in the fire department,

Lex Fridman (1:07:00.760)

one of them said my spleen was engorged

Niels Jorgensen (1:07:03.160)

because I was probably drinking myself to death,

Lex Fridman (1:07:05.440)

like as he said, most of the guys did after 9 11,

Niels Jorgensen (1:07:10.280)

which was pretty wrong of him and stereotypical,

Lex Fridman (1:07:12.440)

just to stereotype and to categorize

Lex Fridman (1:07:14.880)

and guy couldn't have cared less,

Lex Fridman (1:07:17.320)

he just, he was so crude and nasty.

Lex Fridman (1:07:19.740)

And then my one doctor who was my doctor on the outside,

Lex Fridman (1:07:23.240)

my blood pressure was 240 over 140,

Niels Jorgensen (1:07:26.320)

my spleen was about to rupture,

Lex Fridman (1:07:28.800)

she didn't even show up for my appointment

Lex Fridman (1:07:30.520)

and I went down, passed out, the paramedics responded,

Lex Fridman (1:07:34.760)

she got into an argument with a paramedic

Niels Jorgensen (1:07:36.680)

because for big ego and basically telling him

Lex Fridman (1:07:40.120)

there wasn't really anything wrong

Lex Fridman (1:07:41.320)

and he's looking at my paperwork going,

Lex Fridman (1:07:43.380)

this guy's got leukemia and he overrode her,

Niels Jorgensen (1:07:46.900)

he raced me out of there down to Brooklyn Methodist

Lex Fridman (1:07:49.480)

and the doctor, the charge physician, the ER physician,

Niels Jorgensen (1:07:55.640)

he says, you're not leaving, you're in a bad way.

Lex Fridman (1:07:58.920)

And I said, what is it?

Niels Jorgensen (1:08:00.920)

He said, I need a little while to figure it out,

Lex Fridman (1:08:04.500)

he goes, but you probably have one of a few different types

Niels Jorgensen (1:08:09.200)

of leukemia, he said, I'll drill into your hip,

Lex Fridman (1:08:11.080)

take your marrow and find out.

Lex Fridman (1:08:13.520)

And he said, but in the meantime,

Lex Fridman (1:08:15.600)

we'll get the swelling on the spleen down,

Niels Jorgensen (1:08:17.320)

I guess some sort of rapid medicines and whatnot

Lex Fridman (1:08:19.880)

because my spleen is about to rupture.

Niels Jorgensen (1:08:22.800)

I had no blood platelets left which is your clotter

Lex Fridman (1:08:25.800)

so I basically would have bled to death

Lex Fridman (1:08:27.880)

and I found out from my team of doctors

Lex Fridman (1:08:31.440)

that I had about 48 hours to live

Lex Fridman (1:08:34.840)

and that really set me off, I was infuriated

Lex Fridman (1:08:37.040)

because I was telling them for a long time that I was sick.

Niels Jorgensen (1:08:41.640)

The doctors failed you,

Lex Fridman (1:08:42.960)

the few doctors in the beginning failed you.

Niels Jorgensen (1:08:44.800)

I felt very betrayed and other guys had died

Lex Fridman (1:08:49.760)

and I had it out with that one doctor,

Niels Jorgensen (1:08:53.560)

I basically told her she was fired from my case

Lex Fridman (1:08:55.960)

and she's pretty politically in charge person

Lex Fridman (1:08:59.640)

and I didn't care, I jeopardized my job for it

Lex Fridman (1:09:02.700)

because it was my life and I got the sense

Niels Jorgensen (1:09:04.800)

that it didn't really matter to her.

Lex Fridman (1:09:07.720)

She didn't have any empathy, as you say.

Niels Jorgensen (1:09:09.960)

It was exact, so why for her, why for a few others,

Lex Fridman (1:09:13.920)

was there not a special care, a special compassion

Niels Jorgensen (1:09:18.960)

for, first of all, all humans,

Lex Fridman (1:09:20.880)

but human beings in your position,

Lex Fridman (1:09:22.960)

especially a firefighter, a first responder?

Lex Fridman (1:09:26.000)

You know, Alex, I think what it is in the department,

Niels Jorgensen (1:09:28.760)

their title is just to get us back to duty

Lex Fridman (1:09:31.300)

as quickly as possible when we are either injured or sick

Niels Jorgensen (1:09:35.700)

because what happens then is your replacement

Lex Fridman (1:09:38.680)

is now in overtime so you're out being paid on medical leave

Lex Fridman (1:09:43.200)

but then they need to replace your spot

Lex Fridman (1:09:45.160)

and then that costs more money.

Lex Fridman (1:09:47.140)

So I think it just behooves them

Lex Fridman (1:09:49.560)

to get as many personnel back

Lex Fridman (1:09:52.460)

and especially during the summertime,

Lex Fridman (1:09:54.360)

they look at it like, oh, maybe you want a few extra days off

Niels Jorgensen (1:09:57.000)

to go to the beach and this one doctor,

Lex Fridman (1:10:02.200)

he tipped his hand back as if I was drinking

Lex Fridman (1:10:04.680)

an alcohol beverage, he says, hey, busy summer?

Lex Fridman (1:10:07.600)

Because I asked him to look at my spleen

Niels Jorgensen (1:10:09.360)

which was sticking out of my abdomen like a football

Lex Fridman (1:10:13.000)

and I said, excuse me, sir, I said,

Lex Fridman (1:10:14.640)

how dare you assume that I'm abusing alcohol

Lex Fridman (1:10:18.000)

because alcohol abuse sometimes will present itself

Niels Jorgensen (1:10:22.240)

as the spleen is engorged and having an issue.

Lex Fridman (1:10:26.160)

So he automatically just assumed that that was my situation,

Niels Jorgensen (1:10:29.060)

wouldn't even give me an exam and I was horrified.

Lex Fridman (1:10:32.840)

I was so angry, I mean, I wanted to punch this guy out

Lex Fridman (1:10:35.680)

and I literally was screaming at him

Lex Fridman (1:10:37.240)

and an executive officer came in to diffuse it

Lex Fridman (1:10:41.160)

and sent me to another doctor

Lex Fridman (1:10:42.640)

and when I showed her my paperwork, she was horrified.

Lex Fridman (1:10:44.840)

She was like, what did he say?

Lex Fridman (1:10:47.120)

And she said, oh, okay, go to your regular doctor tomorrow

Niels Jorgensen (1:10:50.280)

who was one of the department doctors

Lex Fridman (1:10:52.160)

and it was just an indifference.

Niels Jorgensen (1:10:55.520)

It was like, I don't know,

Lex Fridman (1:10:57.200)

I was shocked at the lack of compassion

Lex Fridman (1:11:00.800)

but you know what, that being said, I'm past it,

Lex Fridman (1:11:04.120)

life moves on.

Niels Jorgensen (1:11:06.340)

The team of doctors, I ended up with a Methodist

Lex Fridman (1:11:09.780)

and my subsequent oncologist, Dr. Peter Menzel,

Niels Jorgensen (1:11:13.960)

world class, just incredible human being.

Lex Fridman (1:11:16.760)

My Dr. Pete is just, I love him.

Niels Jorgensen (1:11:18.840)

I just, I love him like a friend, like a big brother,

Lex Fridman (1:11:21.180)

like a father, like my primary oncology care nurse,

Niels Jorgensen (1:11:25.640)

Mike Nunez, was just an incredible human being

Lex Fridman (1:11:28.200)

and he knew I was frightened

Niels Jorgensen (1:11:30.000)

because I had to get two and a half years of chemo

Lex Fridman (1:11:33.720)

compressed into seven days or I was dead.

Lex Fridman (1:11:37.240)

And these massive bags of chemo that never stopped

Lex Fridman (1:11:40.680)

and they burned, the minute they went into your body,

Niels Jorgensen (1:11:46.200)

you felt like you were burning to death

Lex Fridman (1:11:47.600)

from the inside out.

Lex Fridman (1:11:49.280)

And Mike, when Mike came in to hook me up,

Lex Fridman (1:11:51.880)

he said, look, I have to wear a hazmat suit.

Niels Jorgensen (1:11:54.920)

This stuff is so caustic that if it drips,

Lex Fridman (1:11:57.720)

it'll burn whenever it touches.

Lex Fridman (1:11:59.960)

And I was like, but Mike, you're gonna put that in my body.

Lex Fridman (1:12:02.400)

How the hell is it not gonna kill me?

Niels Jorgensen (1:12:04.640)

He says, no, no, this is exactly what it's supposed to do.

Lex Fridman (1:12:07.120)

Trust me.

Lex Fridman (1:12:08.440)

So when he prepped the IV tube to get it flowing,

Lex Fridman (1:12:11.540)

it spilled onto the tube

Lex Fridman (1:12:13.000)

and the tube started to smoke and burn.

Lex Fridman (1:12:15.600)

And I said, no effing way, Mike,

Niels Jorgensen (1:12:18.160)

you're not putting that in me.

Lex Fridman (1:12:19.240)

No way, no way.

Lex Fridman (1:12:20.760)

And he goes, listen, let me get another one.

Lex Fridman (1:12:22.440)

Let me start it over.

Lex Fridman (1:12:23.640)

And here he is wearing a hazmat suit, looking at me

Lex Fridman (1:12:25.600)

and I'm going, this is insane.

Lex Fridman (1:12:27.920)

And he goes, he looked at me, he took my hand

Lex Fridman (1:12:30.400)

and he says, Nels, if you don't take it, you're dead.

Niels Jorgensen (1:12:34.000)

He says, you got those three kids.

Lex Fridman (1:12:35.980)

I'm sorry, I have no other option.

Niels Jorgensen (1:12:37.800)

You're dead.

Lex Fridman (1:12:38.960)

And I said, all right, Mike, okay.

Lex Fridman (1:12:41.080)

And he hooked me up.

Lex Fridman (1:12:42.560)

And you know what, it was like, you know,

Niels Jorgensen (1:12:45.320)

if you do drink alcohol and you have like a shot

Lex Fridman (1:12:47.980)

or want, you know, strong type spirit

Lex Fridman (1:12:50.880)

and you start feeling that burn.

Lex Fridman (1:12:53.140)

Well, the minute he hit me in the vein,

Niels Jorgensen (1:12:56.320)

it just started going up my arm, burning

Lex Fridman (1:12:58.800)

and then up my shoulder, across my neck, into my head,

Niels Jorgensen (1:13:03.440)

across the rest of my body,

Lex Fridman (1:13:04.680)

within a minute down to my feet.

Lex Fridman (1:13:06.640)

And I was writhing in pain for seven days

Lex Fridman (1:13:09.920)

and I was praying to die.

Niels Jorgensen (1:13:12.220)

I was the seventh rescuer in six months

Lex Fridman (1:13:14.480)

to come down with the rarest leukemia there is.

Niels Jorgensen (1:13:17.120)

There's only 500 cases in all of North America a year.

Lex Fridman (1:13:20.440)

And seven of us came down in six months.

Niels Jorgensen (1:13:22.560)

Two guys died during treatment.

Lex Fridman (1:13:24.440)

Seven responders, police, fire.

Niels Jorgensen (1:13:27.780)

Two guys died in the first couple of days of the treatment

Lex Fridman (1:13:29.880)

because it's so vicious, your liver, your heart,

Niels Jorgensen (1:13:32.240)

your kidneys, something will fail.

Lex Fridman (1:13:35.040)

And I was praying and I was praying, but I wanted to die.

Niels Jorgensen (1:13:37.520)

I was in so much pain.

Lex Fridman (1:13:39.480)

And I wouldn't take a painkiller

Niels Jorgensen (1:13:40.880)

because I know people with some issues

Lex Fridman (1:13:42.920)

and I just didn't want to go there.

Lex Fridman (1:13:45.200)

And finally on the last day I gave in,

Lex Fridman (1:13:48.480)

I said, please, I can't do this anymore.

Niels Jorgensen (1:13:50.480)

I was literally like jumping out of my skin

Lex Fridman (1:13:53.460)

and they gave me something.

Lex Fridman (1:13:55.640)

But it had burned out my mind, it burned out my body.

Lex Fridman (1:13:58.100)

I couldn't hear, I could barely see, it was vicious.

Lex Fridman (1:14:01.100)

But it worked.

Lex Fridman (1:14:03.580)

And my nurses especially,

Niels Jorgensen (1:14:05.740)

they just, they were so dedicated and devoted.

Lex Fridman (1:14:08.380)

And I was not an easy patient

Niels Jorgensen (1:14:10.340)

because I was in a lot of pain.

Lex Fridman (1:14:11.780)

It was bad and it was, drove my friends, my family crazy.

Niels Jorgensen (1:14:16.380)

It was just, it wasn't good.

Lex Fridman (1:14:18.860)

But on that first night I had a quick vision

Niels Jorgensen (1:14:22.580)

of all these people that I loved that were dead, that died.

Lex Fridman (1:14:26.740)

A lot of them in a trade center and I saw Johnny,

Niels Jorgensen (1:14:28.860)

I saw friends I grew up with.

Lex Fridman (1:14:32.480)

The last one was my mother in law

Niels Jorgensen (1:14:34.460)

who had passed six months before and she died of,

Lex Fridman (1:14:37.500)

she was in a coma, she had a stroke.

Niels Jorgensen (1:14:39.460)

She had a horrible, horrible last six months of life

Lex Fridman (1:14:42.500)

and it wasn't fair because she was so religious.

Niels Jorgensen (1:14:45.380)

She went to church every day, devout Catholic woman.

Lex Fridman (1:14:49.020)

And all of a sudden I see her and she's smiling

Lex Fridman (1:14:51.100)

and we used to talk a lot, it's the Irish thing,

Lex Fridman (1:14:55.300)

like the gab, the gift of gab.

Lex Fridman (1:14:56.860)

And she used to call me her boyfriend

Lex Fridman (1:14:59.100)

because we'd sit and talk for hours

Lex Fridman (1:15:00.620)

and talk about books and about movies and about food.

Lex Fridman (1:15:03.700)

I loved her, she was my friend.

Lex Fridman (1:15:06.300)

And she'd say, you know, my boyfriend's here.

Lex Fridman (1:15:08.860)

And all of a sudden she's smiling

Lex Fridman (1:15:10.260)

and she goes, hi, my boyfriend.

Lex Fridman (1:15:11.620)

And I says, Nan, Nan, what are you doing?

Niels Jorgensen (1:15:13.860)

She goes, he's not ready, he doesn't want you.

Lex Fridman (1:15:16.860)

You gotta go back, you got things to do.

Lex Fridman (1:15:19.420)

And I'm like, no, Nan, Nan, it hurts so much.

Lex Fridman (1:15:21.500)

Please, please take me and she left.

Niels Jorgensen (1:15:23.260)

She goes, no, no, not yet, I'll see you.

Lex Fridman (1:15:26.140)

And she just faded away.

Lex Fridman (1:15:28.340)

And one of my doctors on my team,

Lex Fridman (1:15:30.340)

she had a problem with religion.

Lex Fridman (1:15:35.740)

And that's okay, I understand that.

Lex Fridman (1:15:38.140)

I'm not a preacher, I have a faith,

Lex Fridman (1:15:40.380)

but I don't preach it, I don't push it.

Lex Fridman (1:15:41.920)

I just live and let live.

Lex Fridman (1:15:44.940)

So she sent in this shrink to see me.

Lex Fridman (1:15:47.340)

And I was messed up from the chemo,

Lex Fridman (1:15:49.940)

but I knew what I was seeing, I knew what I was saying.

Lex Fridman (1:15:53.340)

And he was a Jewish gentleman.

Niels Jorgensen (1:15:56.340)

He was a rabbi also in a synagogue.

Lex Fridman (1:15:59.420)

And I actually had responded in that district

Lex Fridman (1:16:01.380)

and he knew 114 would run into Borough Park.

Lex Fridman (1:16:04.700)

Oh yeah, I see Tyler, oh, they come down the street.

Lex Fridman (1:16:08.060)

And he asked me to tell him the story and I did.

Lex Fridman (1:16:11.300)

And he started laughing and he scared me now.

Lex Fridman (1:16:14.140)

I says, Doc, am I really crazy?

Lex Fridman (1:16:15.900)

He said, no, no.

Niels Jorgensen (1:16:17.820)

He said, I believe you, my friend.

Lex Fridman (1:16:19.940)

He said, we share the same God.

Niels Jorgensen (1:16:23.180)

He goes, we work in the same corporation,

Lex Fridman (1:16:25.820)

but in different departments.

Lex Fridman (1:16:27.700)

And he says, you did see your mother in law.

Lex Fridman (1:16:30.660)

He says, your faith is that strong.

Niels Jorgensen (1:16:32.700)

He said, I've had many patients

Lex Fridman (1:16:33.980)

express the same sentiments.

Niels Jorgensen (1:16:35.860)

He said, so I want you to listen to her

Lex Fridman (1:16:38.500)

and fight and be strong.

Lex Fridman (1:16:40.900)

And he said, so what else do you want to talk about?

Lex Fridman (1:16:42.700)

I said, well, I don't know, Doc, am I that messed up?

Niels Jorgensen (1:16:44.740)

He goes, no, no.

Lex Fridman (1:16:45.560)

He goes, they're paying me for an hour.

Niels Jorgensen (1:16:46.740)

It only took 20 minutes.

Lex Fridman (1:16:48.180)

So we watched the Yankee game together and that's less.

Lex Fridman (1:16:51.180)

But it was just, again, it showed the human condition.

Lex Fridman (1:16:53.740)

Here's these two men of two totally different faiths.

Lex Fridman (1:16:57.300)

And yet we shared that bond of faith.

Lex Fridman (1:17:00.780)

And he had empathy and he had sympathy.

Lex Fridman (1:17:03.340)

And he saw me in many other patients.

Lex Fridman (1:17:08.540)

So he just didn't assume.

Lex Fridman (1:17:10.020)

And he gave me a fair shake

Lex Fridman (1:17:11.860)

and I will always be grateful to him for that.

Niels Jorgensen (1:17:15.480)

Through any of this, the pain you had to go through

Lex Fridman (1:17:18.260)

with the leukemia, but also the days of 9 11

Lex Fridman (1:17:21.940)

and after, did your faith get challenged?

Lex Fridman (1:17:26.060)

You know, Lex, it was strange.

Niels Jorgensen (1:17:28.620)

It was times I was so angry.

Lex Fridman (1:17:30.140)

You know, there's that range of emotions,

Niels Jorgensen (1:17:31.860)

the anger, the denial, the depression, the this, the that.

Lex Fridman (1:17:36.140)

And this is the weirdest thing.

Niels Jorgensen (1:17:37.300)

It was mostly, I knew my career was over

Lex Fridman (1:17:41.500)

and they retired me out of the job.

Niels Jorgensen (1:17:43.700)

That, I got sick in August and that October,

Lex Fridman (1:17:46.700)

they told me I was out.

Lex Fridman (1:17:48.580)

And by the time I was processed and, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:17:51.700)

used up my leaves and whatever you want to say it was,

Niels Jorgensen (1:17:54.980)

I was officially retired in January of 02

Lex Fridman (1:17:59.420)

and it was less than six months.

Lex Fridman (1:18:01.980)

And I'm there walking my dog one day,

Lex Fridman (1:18:03.820)

my rescued Greyhound who I miss.

Niels Jorgensen (1:18:05.580)

She was such a soul.

Lex Fridman (1:18:06.860)

God, she lived to be almost 13, Katie.

Lex Fridman (1:18:09.020)

And we were walking in the snow and I got the call.

Lex Fridman (1:18:12.220)

I was retired and I looked at her and I'm like,

Lex Fridman (1:18:14.000)

Katie, what am I going to do?

Lex Fridman (1:18:15.180)

She just looked up and said, we're going to go

Lex Fridman (1:18:16.740)

on a lot more walks, you know?

Lex Fridman (1:18:18.700)

And I was so sad and I was so sad and I was so angry

Niels Jorgensen (1:18:22.580)

because I lost my priesthood.

Lex Fridman (1:18:24.060)

I loved helping people.

Niels Jorgensen (1:18:25.180)

I really, like I would have done it for free.

Lex Fridman (1:18:28.140)

I would never tell Mayor Bloomberg that, right?

Lex Fridman (1:18:30.900)

He's all about the buck, right?

Lex Fridman (1:18:32.180)

But like, you know, honestly,

Niels Jorgensen (1:18:33.380)

I would have been a New York City fireman.

Lex Fridman (1:18:35.180)

I would have paid them to do it, you know?

Lex Fridman (1:18:37.660)

And I wasn't allowed anymore.

Lex Fridman (1:18:40.500)

That's it.

Niels Jorgensen (1:18:41.340)

You have over 20 years and you have cancer.

Lex Fridman (1:18:43.660)

You know, back when my dad got sick,

Niels Jorgensen (1:18:45.020)

they'd let you hang around for 10, 12 years in an office,

Lex Fridman (1:18:47.780)

but not now.

Niels Jorgensen (1:18:49.140)

Now it's all about the bottom line.

Lex Fridman (1:18:53.220)

But I was more depressed about losing a job

Niels Jorgensen (1:18:55.580)

than almost losing my life.

Lex Fridman (1:18:57.220)

Like, as crazy as that sounds, you know?

Lex Fridman (1:18:59.200)

And it just...

Lex Fridman (1:19:00.860)

It was more than a job.

Niels Jorgensen (1:19:01.940)

I mean, it's a way of life.

Lex Fridman (1:19:04.260)

Oh, man, yeah.

Niels Jorgensen (1:19:05.100)

It also is your family, your father,

Lex Fridman (1:19:07.460)

your carrying torture, your father's...

Niels Jorgensen (1:19:10.540)

Oh, my friend.

Lex Fridman (1:19:11.360)

I love my friends.

Niels Jorgensen (1:19:12.200)

I love, we worked 24 hour shifts together.

Lex Fridman (1:19:14.420)

You cook, you clean, you break each other's jobs

Niels Jorgensen (1:19:17.300)

relentlessly.

Lex Fridman (1:19:18.140)

I mean, I love those guys so much.

Niels Jorgensen (1:19:20.920)

I mean, I hope that my kids

Lex Fridman (1:19:24.420)

and anyone that I know and care about,

Niels Jorgensen (1:19:25.960)

I hope they can experience the bond of that brotherhood

Lex Fridman (1:19:31.200)

that I experienced in my life.

Niels Jorgensen (1:19:32.740)

It was so...

Lex Fridman (1:19:33.580)

God, I would give anything to have it back.

Niels Jorgensen (1:19:36.140)

Just, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:19:37.580)

Can I ask you about New York?

Lex Fridman (1:19:39.260)

So unfortunately, I've never lived in New York.

Lex Fridman (1:19:42.260)

I visit.

Niels Jorgensen (1:19:43.100)

I've always wanted to live there for a bit.

Lex Fridman (1:19:44.860)

Obviously, it's a very different experience

Niels Jorgensen (1:19:47.020)

to have really lived in New York for many, many years.

Lex Fridman (1:19:50.280)

But there's a few friends of mine that are from...

Niels Jorgensen (1:19:54.700)

They got similar accent as yours.

Lex Fridman (1:19:56.620)

Yeah.

Niels Jorgensen (1:19:57.460)

That are a little bit saddened.

Lex Fridman (1:20:00.660)

Perhaps it's temporary, but perhaps not.

Niels Jorgensen (1:20:03.900)

They don't seem to think so of what New York has become,

Lex Fridman (1:20:07.180)

especially with COVID.

Niels Jorgensen (1:20:08.660)

It's losing some of the spirit of New York.

Lex Fridman (1:20:12.300)

Do you have that sense?

Lex Fridman (1:20:13.560)

Do you have a hope for the city

Lex Fridman (1:20:15.640)

that has been so defining to what is America?

Niels Jorgensen (1:20:21.060)

My heart's broken.

Lex Fridman (1:20:22.700)

I had moved to New Jersey many years ago,

Lex Fridman (1:20:25.620)

but I still have a close attachment to New York.

Lex Fridman (1:20:27.660)

My parents are still there, many, many family members.

Lex Fridman (1:20:32.340)

And I've since now moved to Tennessee.

Lex Fridman (1:20:34.300)

I needed to go somewhere quiet.

Niels Jorgensen (1:20:36.780)

I wanted to heal my fractured soul.

Lex Fridman (1:20:38.860)

And I'm in the middle of a beautiful farming rural area

Niels Jorgensen (1:20:43.860)

in middle Tennessee.

Lex Fridman (1:20:45.060)

And so they probably called me a sellout

Niels Jorgensen (1:20:48.740)

back in New York for leaving,

Lex Fridman (1:20:50.020)

but it's not the same city and it's sad.

Niels Jorgensen (1:20:54.140)

I'll refrain from the politics and the finger pointing,

Lex Fridman (1:20:59.340)

but it's a mess compared to what it was.

Lex Fridman (1:21:01.580)

And I did Broadway theater security for many years,

Lex Fridman (1:21:06.180)

and I started to see it slide

Niels Jorgensen (1:21:09.060)

like with stuff that was happening,

Lex Fridman (1:21:11.860)

like public urination and defecation

Lex Fridman (1:21:15.340)

and just like tourists don't wanna see that, right?

Lex Fridman (1:21:18.820)

And I had an unfortunate incident two years ago.

Niels Jorgensen (1:21:24.320)

I was jumped by four teenagers coming off the subway

Lex Fridman (1:21:28.780)

and they were pissed off

Niels Jorgensen (1:21:29.900)

because I was wearing an American flag hat.

Lex Fridman (1:21:31.860)

And I don't know, I'm not really sure why,

Lex Fridman (1:21:36.100)

but it left me, I got out of it, okay.

Lex Fridman (1:21:40.120)

But I was taken back.

Niels Jorgensen (1:21:43.200)

They were literally videoing it

Lex Fridman (1:21:44.600)

and the kid was just throwing shadow punches at my face

Niels Jorgensen (1:21:47.300)

wanting to beat me up.

Lex Fridman (1:21:48.220)

And I finally looked him in the eyes and I was like,

Niels Jorgensen (1:21:50.080)

oh boy, I'm a little too old for this.

Lex Fridman (1:21:52.900)

Body's a little broken down for chemo.

Lex Fridman (1:21:54.620)

And I finally just said, all right, all right.

Lex Fridman (1:21:56.860)

I just had enough, I wanted to go home.

Niels Jorgensen (1:21:59.260)

Just worked a 17 hour shift as a stage hand.

Lex Fridman (1:22:02.580)

And I was so taken back, I was so insulted.

Niels Jorgensen (1:22:04.660)

I'm saying, I spent my life protecting this city

Lex Fridman (1:22:07.980)

and now I'm getting attacked like for nothing.

Lex Fridman (1:22:10.660)

And I just, I gave up

Lex Fridman (1:22:12.220)

and maybe I should have given it a little more time,

Lex Fridman (1:22:14.460)

but it's, I don't know, it's turned into an angry place.

Lex Fridman (1:22:19.140)

It's turned into, I think there's a lot of people

Niels Jorgensen (1:22:22.820)

that aren't getting the resources they need in a sense.

Lex Fridman (1:22:26.180)

There's a lot of mental illness.

Niels Jorgensen (1:22:27.580)

There's a lot of homelessness.

Lex Fridman (1:22:29.380)

There's a lot of violent people

Niels Jorgensen (1:22:31.360)

just roaming around the streets and it's not good.

Lex Fridman (1:22:33.940)

It's not safe.

Lex Fridman (1:22:35.420)

And tourists are not gonna come back.

Lex Fridman (1:22:38.900)

Even just leading up to the COVID,

Niels Jorgensen (1:22:40.580)

I had some tourists saying to me, I won't be back.

Lex Fridman (1:22:43.180)

And now I can only imagine

Niels Jorgensen (1:22:44.660)

that it's just gotten exponentially worse,

Lex Fridman (1:22:46.580)

but I hope there's a chance it'll swing back.

Niels Jorgensen (1:22:49.220)

Cause it is, it's the gateway to the world.

Lex Fridman (1:22:50.980)

I mean, my grandfather came from Denmark.

Niels Jorgensen (1:22:55.580)

He landed in Ellis Island in the twenties.

Lex Fridman (1:22:59.140)

American success story, 25 bucks in his pocket,

Niels Jorgensen (1:23:01.900)

didn't speak the language,

Lex Fridman (1:23:03.940)

had a sponsor family in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn.

Lex Fridman (1:23:06.860)

And he made it, you know, he ended up dying

Lex Fridman (1:23:09.300)

owning a bakery at one point and then an apartment building.

Lex Fridman (1:23:13.020)

And he did pretty well for himself

Lex Fridman (1:23:14.500)

for an immigrant who was poor.

Lex Fridman (1:23:16.960)

And my mom, my Irish mother landed in the same neighborhood,

Lex Fridman (1:23:20.420)

Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, 16 years old.

Niels Jorgensen (1:23:24.060)

Worked as a cashier 50, 60 hours a week in the supermarket

Lex Fridman (1:23:27.540)

and finished school at night.

Niels Jorgensen (1:23:29.040)

Married my father, the fireman,

Lex Fridman (1:23:32.760)

and, you know, lived the American dream.

Lex Fridman (1:23:36.000)

And it was all, it was all from New York.

Lex Fridman (1:23:37.800)

And my father's mom was from Irish immigrants

Lex Fridman (1:23:41.540)

and they all landed in Ellis Island.

Lex Fridman (1:23:43.520)

Well, my mom didn't cause it was closed at that point,

Lex Fridman (1:23:45.960)

but it's, there's people breaking down the doors

Lex Fridman (1:23:49.800)

to come to this country, right?

Niels Jorgensen (1:23:51.640)

There's no one breaking down the doors to leave.

Lex Fridman (1:23:55.160)

And this is, this is a problem I have

Niels Jorgensen (1:23:56.600)

with people that aren't grateful for being here.

Lex Fridman (1:23:58.740)

And this, again, it's not political,

Niels Jorgensen (1:24:00.480)

just straight down the middle fastball.

Lex Fridman (1:24:03.440)

If you don't like it here, I'll show you the door.

Niels Jorgensen (1:24:06.600)

I'll get you the plane ticket.

Lex Fridman (1:24:08.460)

I mean, would you want to live back in Russia

Lex Fridman (1:24:10.560)

compared to here?

Lex Fridman (1:24:11.440)

Would you, you might because of family ties,

Lex Fridman (1:24:13.600)

but I mean, if you had no ties to Russia

Lex Fridman (1:24:16.120)

or would you want to go to China right now

Lex Fridman (1:24:18.040)

and possibly end up in a labor camp or, right?

Lex Fridman (1:24:21.280)

There's people busting down the doors to get to this place.

Niels Jorgensen (1:24:24.320)

It's not perfect.

Lex Fridman (1:24:25.540)

It's got its flaws, it's got its blemishes, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:24:31.160)

but it's a damn great place.

Lex Fridman (1:24:32.560)

It's the best country in the world.

Niels Jorgensen (1:24:34.360)

Yeah, and some of it, so first of all,

Lex Fridman (1:24:36.320)

I have hope for New York.

Niels Jorgensen (1:24:37.540)

I think that culture is very difficult to kill.

Lex Fridman (1:24:40.880)

I think it will persevere.

Lex Fridman (1:24:42.920)

And I think ultimately the same story with New York

Lex Fridman (1:24:45.400)

as with the rest of the United States,

Niels Jorgensen (1:24:48.080)

it has to do with leaders.

Lex Fridman (1:24:49.720)

And I'm always hopeful that great leaders will emerge.

Niels Jorgensen (1:24:53.320)

I agree.

Lex Fridman (1:24:54.160)

And the kind of leadership we see now

Lex Fridman (1:24:58.000)

and the kind of conversations we have now,

Lex Fridman (1:24:59.720)

I think it has to do with the prosperity and comfort.

Lex Fridman (1:25:04.440)

And in the face of hardship,

Lex Fridman (1:25:06.080)

I think great leaders will emerge.

Lex Fridman (1:25:07.680)

And yeah, I just think ultimately

Lex Fridman (1:25:11.160)

in the long arc of history.

Niels Jorgensen (1:25:13.400)

Well, leaders shouldn't become rich.

Lex Fridman (1:25:15.200)

They shouldn't become rich in the process, right?

Niels Jorgensen (1:25:17.280)

You shouldn't go into political office

Lex Fridman (1:25:20.040)

as an alleged lunchbox kind of guy

Lex Fridman (1:25:23.720)

and then come out eating at the best steakhouse in the world.

Lex Fridman (1:25:26.840)

I mean, that's the problem with politics, right?

Niels Jorgensen (1:25:30.120)

My Irish grandmother, God rest her, used to say,

Lex Fridman (1:25:33.140)

oh, those politicians, they're all like dirty diapers.

Niels Jorgensen (1:25:35.540)

They're full of shit and they stink.

Lex Fridman (1:25:37.520)

And it's true.

Niels Jorgensen (1:25:38.360)

I don't give a crap what party they're in.

Lex Fridman (1:25:40.280)

Yeah, greed and power.

Niels Jorgensen (1:25:41.560)

We had to beg these guys,

Lex Fridman (1:25:42.880)

beg them for federal legislation

Lex Fridman (1:25:45.800)

to cover our medical bills, right?

Lex Fridman (1:25:47.840)

There's a gentleman, John Field

Niels Jorgensen (1:25:49.240)

from the Feel Good Foundation.

Lex Fridman (1:25:51.300)

This guy is a lion of a man, a general,

Lex Fridman (1:25:54.280)

but with a soft, big, great heart.

Lex Fridman (1:25:57.320)

And John is a former construction worker

Niels Jorgensen (1:26:00.840)

who came to the 9.11 site the day after.

Lex Fridman (1:26:05.120)

He was one of those guys cutting the steel with torches

Lex Fridman (1:26:08.440)

and craning it out of the air.

Lex Fridman (1:26:09.920)

One of those hard hats that just,

Niels Jorgensen (1:26:12.520)

that never got the credit and the praise

Lex Fridman (1:26:16.860)

that we did as responders.

Lex Fridman (1:26:18.880)

And I don't mean that as a knock to responders, right?

Lex Fridman (1:26:21.560)

I mean, we lost 37 Port Authority police officers,

Niels Jorgensen (1:26:25.640)

23 NYPD officers,

Lex Fridman (1:26:28.560)

about a dozen emergency medical technicians and paramedics,

Niels Jorgensen (1:26:34.200)

three court officers from New York State courts

Lex Fridman (1:26:36.400)

and two federal agents,

Lex Fridman (1:26:38.280)

and I hope, and 343 New York City firefighters.

Lex Fridman (1:26:41.200)

We lost a ton of responders.

Lex Fridman (1:26:43.660)

But the recovery workers,

Lex Fridman (1:26:46.400)

thankfully weren't killed in that process,

Lex Fridman (1:26:48.800)

but there's hundreds of them now who are dead from illnesses

Lex Fridman (1:26:53.360)

because they came down to recover our people

Lex Fridman (1:26:55.860)

and the civilians and the poor lost souls

Lex Fridman (1:26:58.380)

that were killed at work that day.

Lex Fridman (1:27:01.080)

And John literally almost lost his foot

Lex Fridman (1:27:05.040)

in a construction accident at the site.

Niels Jorgensen (1:27:07.400)

An 8,000 pound I beam tore off half of his foot,

Lex Fridman (1:27:12.400)

ended up with massive sepsis, six months in the hospital,

Niels Jorgensen (1:27:16.200)

hundreds of thousand dollars in medical bills,

Lex Fridman (1:27:19.540)

and then no one wanted to pay him.

Lex Fridman (1:27:21.840)

So here's a guy, he's gonna lose his house,

Lex Fridman (1:27:23.480)

lose his life, lose everything.

Lex Fridman (1:27:25.620)

And now the never forget, it started quick, right?

Lex Fridman (1:27:30.520)

And he went on a mission,

Niels Jorgensen (1:27:33.000)

formed his Feel Good Foundation.

Lex Fridman (1:27:35.200)

His last name is Feel, F E A L, Feel Good Foundation.

Lex Fridman (1:27:38.160)

And this man literally went to Washington, DC

Lex Fridman (1:27:43.200)

with his army, as he called it.

Lex Fridman (1:27:45.420)

And I was honored and blessed to be with him

Lex Fridman (1:27:47.520)

a couple, only a couple times.

Niels Jorgensen (1:27:48.720)

I wish I had dedicated some more time to it.

Lex Fridman (1:27:53.840)

And what it was with John is he set out on a mission

Niels Jorgensen (1:27:56.320)

to get, and initially what he did is he got funding

Lex Fridman (1:27:59.440)

to take care of responders who were in that limbo,

Niels Jorgensen (1:28:02.280)

who couldn't get their medical bills paid,

Lex Fridman (1:28:04.000)

who couldn't make their mortgages,

Niels Jorgensen (1:28:05.320)

who couldn't make their car payments,

Lex Fridman (1:28:07.180)

who couldn't make their childcare payments.

Lex Fridman (1:28:09.760)

And John just took it upon his own to get donations

Lex Fridman (1:28:12.080)

and take care of you while you were suffering, right?

Niels Jorgensen (1:28:14.920)

I got a call when I got out of hospital.

Lex Fridman (1:28:16.640)

You okay?

Lex Fridman (1:28:17.480)

You need anything?

Lex Fridman (1:28:18.300)

I said, who is this?

Niels Jorgensen (1:28:19.200)

It's John Feel.

Lex Fridman (1:28:20.520)

I said, aren't you that constructor?

Lex Fridman (1:28:22.240)

Yeah, you need anything?

Lex Fridman (1:28:23.840)

I'm pretty good right now.

Niels Jorgensen (1:28:25.160)

I said, I appreciate it.

Lex Fridman (1:28:26.600)

Phone ring again a few weeks later.

Lex Fridman (1:28:27.960)

Hey, John Feel, you need anything?

Lex Fridman (1:28:29.920)

I'm like, this guy's incredible.

Lex Fridman (1:28:31.880)

But there's people who needed stuff

Lex Fridman (1:28:33.400)

and he was getting it done.

Lex Fridman (1:28:35.040)

And he, with his army, had to chase these politicians

Lex Fridman (1:28:38.960)

through the halls of Congress

Niels Jorgensen (1:28:41.760)

to get funding to cover the medical bills.

Lex Fridman (1:28:44.200)

I was getting sued for $125,000

Niels Jorgensen (1:28:46.420)

for my month stay in the cancer ward.

Lex Fridman (1:28:49.760)

And I couldn't believe it.

Niels Jorgensen (1:28:52.400)

I said, well, wait a minute, I have insurance.

Lex Fridman (1:28:53.920)

They're like, oh, no, no, this is terrorism related.

Niels Jorgensen (1:28:56.540)

We don't cover that.

Lex Fridman (1:28:57.920)

So usually then workers comp will cover

Niels Jorgensen (1:29:00.020)

your on duty injury or illness.

Lex Fridman (1:29:01.960)

Oh, no, no, no, leukemia is not covered under that.

Niels Jorgensen (1:29:04.460)

We don't cover that.

Lex Fridman (1:29:05.800)

So then the ping pong game starts

Lex Fridman (1:29:08.220)

and I'm literally have people showing up,

Lex Fridman (1:29:10.520)

taking pictures of my kids in front of the house.

Lex Fridman (1:29:13.400)

And I went and grabbed the guy one day by the collar.

Lex Fridman (1:29:15.480)

So who the hell are you?

Niels Jorgensen (1:29:16.720)

Sir, I'm a private investigator.

Lex Fridman (1:29:18.800)

We're putting a lien on this property

Niels Jorgensen (1:29:20.280)

due to a nonpayment of a bill.

Lex Fridman (1:29:21.920)

I said, okay, I understand.

Lex Fridman (1:29:23.520)

Do your job.

Lex Fridman (1:29:24.400)

Let me bring my kids inside.

Niels Jorgensen (1:29:25.800)

Take all the pictures you want.

Lex Fridman (1:29:27.280)

Don't step on my front lawn.

Lex Fridman (1:29:29.880)

And I went in the house.

Lex Fridman (1:29:32.440)

I closed my room, my door, my door, my room, and I cried.

Niels Jorgensen (1:29:36.540)

I said, I can't believe this.

Lex Fridman (1:29:38.200)

I spent my entire adult life trying to help people,

Niels Jorgensen (1:29:42.000)

give of myself, and I can't even get my medical bill paid.

Lex Fridman (1:29:45.920)

Well, John Field got my medical bill paid.

Niels Jorgensen (1:29:48.200)

He finally got these politicians with his team,

Lex Fridman (1:29:51.400)

firefighter Ray Pfeiffer, who has since died,

Niels Jorgensen (1:29:54.240)

fought with terminal cancer for nine years in a wheelchair.

Lex Fridman (1:30:00.080)

Literally at the end, came out of hospice

Niels Jorgensen (1:30:01.800)

to go finalize getting us this coverage.

Lex Fridman (1:30:06.200)

Detective Luis Alvarez, who testified days before he died

Niels Jorgensen (1:30:11.160)

in front of Congress, and a bunch of other guys

Lex Fridman (1:30:15.640)

that were really, really sick,

Lex Fridman (1:30:17.360)

and we had to shame these people into signing on.

Lex Fridman (1:30:19.960)

And luckily we had John Stewart come on

Lex Fridman (1:30:22.120)

and literally just hound these guys

Lex Fridman (1:30:25.040)

and shame them and embarrass them.

Lex Fridman (1:30:28.320)

And what it all stemmed from was in 2006,

Lex Fridman (1:30:31.440)

the first death that was determined to be linked to 9 11,

Niels Jorgensen (1:30:35.960)

there was others,

Lex Fridman (1:30:36.800)

but the first one that was officially linked

Niels Jorgensen (1:30:39.260)

was a New York City police detective who initially,

Lex Fridman (1:30:42.240)

the city said he died of advanced lung disease.

Niels Jorgensen (1:30:44.660)

His lungs were protruding out of his body.

Lex Fridman (1:30:47.200)

And he was on painkillers and it was so bad at the end

Niels Jorgensen (1:30:49.960)

that the doctor said, just grind them up, snort them,

Lex Fridman (1:30:52.920)

drink it, whatever you need to do to get instant relief.

Lex Fridman (1:30:56.000)

So when they found the talcum

Lex Fridman (1:30:57.720)

from the pill lining in his lungs,

Niels Jorgensen (1:31:00.020)

they said, oh no, this is opiate abuse.

Lex Fridman (1:31:02.440)

He didn't die of lung disease.

Lex Fridman (1:31:04.200)

So they said, and the mayor was quoted as saying,

Lex Fridman (1:31:07.160)

he is not a hero.

Niels Jorgensen (1:31:08.940)

Well, shame on you, Mr. Mayor.

Lex Fridman (1:31:10.960)

He was a hero.

Lex Fridman (1:31:12.600)

And his father, who was a retired police chief,

Lex Fridman (1:31:15.720)

married up with the Feel Good Foundation

Lex Fridman (1:31:18.060)

and John Stewart and Ray Pfeiffer, Detective Alvarez.

Lex Fridman (1:31:23.420)

And they got us all covered.

Lex Fridman (1:31:25.320)

But it took so long.

Lex Fridman (1:31:26.920)

Like it was so heartbreaking.

Niels Jorgensen (1:31:28.180)

These people who were lining up three deep politicians,

Lex Fridman (1:31:32.000)

three deep to catch a picture with a responder

Lex Fridman (1:31:34.400)

so they can tweet, hashtag never forget

Lex Fridman (1:31:37.040)

and hashtag look at me and hey, how am I doing?

Niels Jorgensen (1:31:40.400)

All that bull crap.

Lex Fridman (1:31:41.520)

They were nowhere to be freaking found.

Niels Jorgensen (1:31:43.960)

I literally witnessed them hiding in cloak rooms,

Lex Fridman (1:31:48.080)

running down hallways away from us, those freaking cowards.

Niels Jorgensen (1:31:51.120)

That's cowardice.

Lex Fridman (1:31:52.560)

Can I just linger on the John Stewart thing,

Niels Jorgensen (1:31:54.600)

the comedian, actor, John Stewart,

Lex Fridman (1:31:57.840)

his testimony before Congress over the benefits

Niels Jorgensen (1:32:00.320)

for 9 11 first responders.

Lex Fridman (1:32:02.560)

I mean, there's a lot of important human beings

Niels Jorgensen (1:32:05.480)

in the story, but he has a big voice.

Lex Fridman (1:32:08.920)

And he spoke from the heart.

Lex Fridman (1:32:10.320)

What do you make of that testimony?

Lex Fridman (1:32:12.600)

Oh, it was heartfelt.

Niels Jorgensen (1:32:13.720)

I mean, he spoke.

Lex Fridman (1:32:16.200)

Look, I mean, John was a polarizing guy, right?

Niels Jorgensen (1:32:20.920)

There's certain things like over the years,

Lex Fridman (1:32:22.560)

he was cutting edge and I might not have agreed

Lex Fridman (1:32:24.680)

with all of his, you know, some stuff, some not, right?

Lex Fridman (1:32:28.360)

You know, like we all, but I tell you,

Niels Jorgensen (1:32:30.120)

I found him as funny.

Lex Fridman (1:32:31.040)

I enjoyed his humor.

Niels Jorgensen (1:32:33.240)

I would love the two of you to have a conversation.

Lex Fridman (1:32:35.000)

No, but again, I love a guy where you can have,

Niels Jorgensen (1:32:37.760)

you can have a difference in opinions.

Lex Fridman (1:32:39.240)

That's the beautiful thing about the firehouse kitchen.

Niels Jorgensen (1:32:41.080)

I mean, it could get raucous and now, I don't know,

Lex Fridman (1:32:44.080)

it's a little different situation,

Lex Fridman (1:32:45.680)

but I mean, back in the day, some funny stuff.

Lex Fridman (1:32:48.600)

But yeah, John, John literally just took his talents.

Niels Jorgensen (1:32:52.120)

You would think he was speaking from the heart

Lex Fridman (1:32:54.480)

of a fireman or a cop or a soldier or a Marine,

Niels Jorgensen (1:32:57.400)

you know, someone who was there.

Lex Fridman (1:33:00.800)

But I think he especially got to know Ray so well

Lex Fridman (1:33:04.880)

and Ray had this stack of mask cards from, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:33:09.160)

the funeral cards they give out.

Niels Jorgensen (1:33:11.560)

It looks like, you know, a larger business card

Lex Fridman (1:33:13.600)

that's laminated.

Lex Fridman (1:33:15.240)

And Ray had a stack of them he would carry around.

Lex Fridman (1:33:18.080)

I think it was close to a hundred cards

Lex Fridman (1:33:21.360)

and John saw it and he said, what's that?

Lex Fridman (1:33:23.880)

He says, these are my cards.

Lex Fridman (1:33:25.240)

He said, for what?

Lex Fridman (1:33:26.120)

He says, for my brother's funerals.

Lex Fridman (1:33:28.560)

He was like, oh my God, you've been to that many funerals?

Lex Fridman (1:33:32.040)

He goes, yeah, this is just the ones I made.

Niels Jorgensen (1:33:35.880)

Like, you know, and John, I think was just stunned.

Lex Fridman (1:33:41.320)

And John actually had that stack of cards

Niels Jorgensen (1:33:44.040)

after Ray passed and like said, look, look at these.

Lex Fridman (1:33:48.040)

There's gonna be more of these cards.

Niels Jorgensen (1:33:50.080)

We have one guy a week or girl,

Lex Fridman (1:33:52.320)

one responder or a recovery worker

Niels Jorgensen (1:33:55.320)

or someone who actually resided down there.

Lex Fridman (1:33:58.240)

There's more than one a week dying.

Niels Jorgensen (1:34:00.800)

It's one a day dying on average.

Lex Fridman (1:34:04.000)

And on average, two people are diagnosed

Niels Jorgensen (1:34:06.240)

with a 9 11 cancer or disease.

Lex Fridman (1:34:09.280)

Right now, the worst part is

Niels Jorgensen (1:34:11.080)

there's autoimmune diseases flying off the graph

Lex Fridman (1:34:14.720)

and they're not covered under the legislation.

Niels Jorgensen (1:34:17.440)

By the grace of God, my cancer is covered.

Lex Fridman (1:34:19.440)

If my cancer comes back, I mean, I'm in remission.

Niels Jorgensen (1:34:22.520)

It's technically incurable, but I've been blessed

Lex Fridman (1:34:25.320)

I'm staying ahead of this stuff going on 10 years.

Lex Fridman (1:34:28.360)

But if it comes back with a vengeance tomorrow and takes me,

Lex Fridman (1:34:31.960)

at least my wife will get my pension

Lex Fridman (1:34:33.800)

and be able to live her life without fear.

Lex Fridman (1:34:36.640)

But my friends who are suffering

Niels Jorgensen (1:34:38.400)

from these advanced autoimmunes, their wives get nothing.

Lex Fridman (1:34:41.600)

Their pension dies with them.

Lex Fridman (1:34:43.560)

And we're hoping that John and his army

Lex Fridman (1:34:47.600)

can shame these politicians once again

Niels Jorgensen (1:34:51.480)

to have the kindness and decency to cover these autoimmunes.

Lex Fridman (1:34:55.600)

You know, they're throwing a lot of money around

Niels Jorgensen (1:34:58.160)

at a lot of things lately.

Lex Fridman (1:34:59.520)

And this is one that they won't.

Lex Fridman (1:35:03.060)

And these are lives in the balance who really need it.

Lex Fridman (1:35:05.800)

And John had this strong line.

Niels Jorgensen (1:35:08.140)

They did their jobs, do yours, talking to the politicians.

Lex Fridman (1:35:12.880)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:35:13.840)

And it's a strong wake up call

Lex Fridman (1:35:17.320)

that it's not about the Twitter or the social media

Niels Jorgensen (1:35:21.760)

or all that kind of stuff.

Lex Fridman (1:35:23.280)

You have a job to do and you have to,

Niels Jorgensen (1:35:26.280)

it's that compassion implemented in the form of money

Lex Fridman (1:35:30.960)

of helping people that were there for you

Niels Jorgensen (1:35:33.860)

when you needed help.

Lex Fridman (1:35:35.400)

Well, we had a guy, I mean,

Niels Jorgensen (1:35:36.760)

I might get audited out of this one, I hope not,

Lex Fridman (1:35:38.960)

but we had a Congressman from out West,

Niels Jorgensen (1:35:41.560)

I won't say where, but he prided himself on saying

Lex Fridman (1:35:44.600)

he was a retired cop, a busy cop, 22 years.

Niels Jorgensen (1:35:49.400)

He said no on the legislation.

Lex Fridman (1:35:52.280)

I witnessed a cop who was dying get out of his wheelchair

Lex Fridman (1:35:56.160)

and said, hey brother, I got a half a million dollars

Lex Fridman (1:36:00.080)

in medical bills and I'm a short timer.

Niels Jorgensen (1:36:02.240)

I got a few months to live.

Lex Fridman (1:36:03.720)

Who the F is gonna pay him?

Niels Jorgensen (1:36:06.000)

Do the right thing.

Lex Fridman (1:36:07.000)

You say you're a cop, you show me you're a cop

Lex Fridman (1:36:09.440)

and you sign that paper.

Lex Fridman (1:36:11.240)

And the guy started tearing up the Congressman

Lex Fridman (1:36:13.480)

and he signed it, but he had to be freaking shamed.

Lex Fridman (1:36:16.120)

And you know what he said?

Niels Jorgensen (1:36:17.120)

Well, this doesn't really confront me.

Lex Fridman (1:36:18.900)

This is pork as far as my district is concerned.

Niels Jorgensen (1:36:21.440)

He goes, oh yeah, do you know there's 10 guys

Lex Fridman (1:36:23.520)

from your district who came across the country

Lex Fridman (1:36:25.400)

to help us that are also dying?

Lex Fridman (1:36:27.240)

He had no idea.

Niels Jorgensen (1:36:28.800)

He had no idea.

Lex Fridman (1:36:30.120)

And that's the sad part about Alex.

Niels Jorgensen (1:36:33.280)

It's a failure in leadership.

Lex Fridman (1:36:37.260)

I think some people would vote for Mickey Mouse

Niels Jorgensen (1:36:39.280)

just because if he ran.

Lex Fridman (1:36:40.400)

I mean, I have no offense against Mickey Mouse.

Lex Fridman (1:36:42.000)

I like him, he's a good guy, right?

Lex Fridman (1:36:43.240)

I mean, but like, I mean.

Niels Jorgensen (1:36:44.360)

Allegedly.

Lex Fridman (1:36:45.180)

Allegedly, supposedly.

Niels Jorgensen (1:36:46.020)

We don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:36:46.840)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:36:47.680)

But seriously, I look at some of the leaderships sometimes

Lex Fridman (1:36:53.280)

and go, we're in trouble.

Lex Fridman (1:36:54.640)

And also you lose, I think the way government

Lex Fridman (1:36:57.680)

is structured is people who are senators

Niels Jorgensen (1:37:00.720)

or people who are in Congress,

Lex Fridman (1:37:04.120)

they start playing a game between each other

Lex Fridman (1:37:07.400)

and they lose track of the connection to the people,

Lex Fridman (1:37:10.700)

to the basic humanity.

Lex Fridman (1:37:12.240)

So you forget, even when you think of yourself as a cop,

Lex Fridman (1:37:15.640)

you forget what are like the cops and the other people

Niels Jorgensen (1:37:21.440)

servicing the community actually experiencing

Lex Fridman (1:37:23.480)

all the troubles they're going through

Lex Fridman (1:37:25.120)

and how they can actually be helped

Lex Fridman (1:37:26.640)

because you lose touch to that

Niels Jorgensen (1:37:27.840)

because you're not actually living,

Lex Fridman (1:37:28.960)

you're not talking to them, you're not living among them.

Lex Fridman (1:37:31.360)

And I mean, that's a natural part of the system,

Lex Fridman (1:37:33.680)

but I think that's why character and great leadership

Niels Jorgensen (1:37:36.040)

is important is you say you leave the game of Congress

Lex Fridman (1:37:41.280)

and you go back to the people.

Niels Jorgensen (1:37:43.400)

I mean, that's what the country,

Lex Fridman (1:37:46.200)

it's like the George Washington ideal

Niels Jorgensen (1:37:48.640)

is you're not playing a game of power.

Lex Fridman (1:37:51.320)

You're ultimately see yourself as somebody who's servicing

Niels Jorgensen (1:37:54.040)

this country's service in the community

Lex Fridman (1:37:55.680)

and that requires talking to the people

Niels Jorgensen (1:37:58.040)

in their time of hardship.

Lex Fridman (1:37:59.440)

Well, you have some people serving

Niels Jorgensen (1:38:01.840)

in congressional districts don't even live in that district.

Lex Fridman (1:38:05.120)

I mean, so how are they gonna empathize?

Niels Jorgensen (1:38:06.760)

They're not even driving through there on a daily basis.

Lex Fridman (1:38:09.880)

And again, when anything becomes lucrative

Niels Jorgensen (1:38:16.400)

from a financial standpoint, it blurs people's vision.

Lex Fridman (1:38:20.880)

You have to take the potential

Niels Jorgensen (1:38:22.760)

of becoming rich out of politics.

Lex Fridman (1:38:26.240)

Politics is public service.

Niels Jorgensen (1:38:28.760)

Police and fire and EMS are public service,

Lex Fridman (1:38:32.640)

but cops and firemen and medics don't walk out

Niels Jorgensen (1:38:37.200)

of their career with gazillion dollar contracts

Lex Fridman (1:38:41.920)

with this company and that company

Niels Jorgensen (1:38:43.640)

on that board of directors and this board of directors.

Lex Fridman (1:38:46.120)

They walk out with a pension and that's it.

Lex Fridman (1:38:49.080)

And you have to wonder the intentions

Lex Fridman (1:38:51.240)

of people getting into politics.

Niels Jorgensen (1:38:52.800)

Are they truly going into to help the human condition

Lex Fridman (1:38:57.480)

or are they trying to help their own damn condition

Lex Fridman (1:38:59.880)

with their wallet and their pocketbook?

Lex Fridman (1:39:01.880)

And I try to lean toward the latter lately

Niels Jorgensen (1:39:04.800)

with what I'm seeing out there.

Lex Fridman (1:39:05.640)

Well, some of them are the good ones

Lex Fridman (1:39:07.160)

and that's our job as a society is to elevate the good ones.

Lex Fridman (1:39:10.080)

That's it and that has to do with the ideals that we elevate.

Niels Jorgensen (1:39:15.080)

There are a number of conspiracy theories

Lex Fridman (1:39:19.960)

around the events of 9 11.

Niels Jorgensen (1:39:22.080)

Do any of these hold true to you

Lex Fridman (1:39:24.560)

or do they just frustrate you, even anger you?

Niels Jorgensen (1:39:30.280)

I've been asked this by a few different people in my life.

Lex Fridman (1:39:36.160)

This is my take on it, right?

Niels Jorgensen (1:39:38.280)

You're a man of science and a man of education.

Lex Fridman (1:39:41.280)

So you...

Niels Jorgensen (1:39:42.760)

Allegedly.

Lex Fridman (1:39:43.600)

Allegedly, but yes, but you're a very, very intelligent man.

Lex Fridman (1:39:47.080)

And what I believe took place is this.

Lex Fridman (1:39:52.520)

Structural steel will fail

Niels Jorgensen (1:39:56.360)

at a sustained temperature of 1500 degrees Fahrenheit.

Lex Fridman (1:40:01.400)

And I don't know exactly how long

Lex Fridman (1:40:03.120)

that would have to be sustained, but that's the temp, right?

Lex Fridman (1:40:07.760)

Diesel fuel, kerosene fuel, kerosene based jet fuel,

Niels Jorgensen (1:40:12.360)

which was the ignition there burns

Lex Fridman (1:40:16.200)

at 2200 degrees Fahrenheit.

Lex Fridman (1:40:19.040)

So that continued burning of that diesel, that jet fuel,

Lex Fridman (1:40:24.640)

but kerosene based, it's all kind of similar

Niels Jorgensen (1:40:28.880)

exceeded the temperature needed for that steel

Lex Fridman (1:40:32.040)

in the structural members of the trade center to fail.

Niels Jorgensen (1:40:36.760)

In my heart of hearts, I would hate to ever think

Lex Fridman (1:40:40.560)

that somebody affiliated with our government

Niels Jorgensen (1:40:44.480)

with some sort of agenda would perpetrate that crime

Lex Fridman (1:40:49.680)

and that tragic just destruction of humanity and property

Niels Jorgensen (1:40:56.120)

for some other form of gain.

Lex Fridman (1:40:59.040)

Those planes rammed into those buildings

Niels Jorgensen (1:41:01.000)

at 450 miles an hour.

Lex Fridman (1:41:03.240)

They were loaded with thousands and thousands

Niels Jorgensen (1:41:05.240)

of gallons of jet fuel.

Lex Fridman (1:41:06.480)

Number seven trade center had the backup

Niels Jorgensen (1:41:10.240)

for the emergency management system for the city.

Lex Fridman (1:41:15.320)

And it was an emergency generator in that complex

Niels Jorgensen (1:41:18.440)

which had a 25,000 gallon tank of diesel fuel

Lex Fridman (1:41:23.800)

to continually run for weeks to keep the 911 system,

Niels Jorgensen (1:41:28.080)

the backup system going in the case of a catastrophic event.

Lex Fridman (1:41:32.960)

Well, that tank in seven heated up from the fire

Niels Jorgensen (1:41:37.040)

that was already going on from the aircraft debris

Lex Fridman (1:41:39.600)

coming into the building.

Lex Fridman (1:41:41.160)

So once that diesel became ignited in seven,

Lex Fridman (1:41:45.720)

now you had enough temperature to fail that steel

Niels Jorgensen (1:41:50.040)

in that building.

Lex Fridman (1:41:51.360)

So I would like to truly believe what I've learned

Niels Jorgensen (1:41:54.960)

from the minimal fire science knowledge I have

Lex Fridman (1:41:57.240)

from my career, that it was just a matter of,

Niels Jorgensen (1:42:02.240)

it burned too long, it burned too hot and it failed.

Lex Fridman (1:42:06.800)

I mean, if you look at the way it came down,

Niels Jorgensen (1:42:09.560)

it came down as it was designed to

Lex Fridman (1:42:12.200)

in the God forbid event that it was to collapse.

Niels Jorgensen (1:42:14.320)

It came down pancaking upon itself.

Lex Fridman (1:42:17.880)

If it had failed horizontally

Lex Fridman (1:42:20.640)

and just sprayed out side to side,

Lex Fridman (1:42:24.480)

those buildings would have dropped for a quarter,

Niels Jorgensen (1:42:26.240)

half a mile up to Canal Street.

Lex Fridman (1:42:29.840)

But you know, Lex, I can't.

Niels Jorgensen (1:42:30.680)

The fire and the destruction that could have resulted.

Lex Fridman (1:42:32.760)

Yeah, oh my gosh, it could have been so much worse.

Niels Jorgensen (1:42:35.120)

I mean, you would have taken out every building

Lex Fridman (1:42:38.160)

from that point all the way up.

Lex Fridman (1:42:41.180)

But in my heart, I'd like to just believe

Lex Fridman (1:42:43.000)

that it was just a fire that burned too long and too hot.

Niels Jorgensen (1:42:46.120)

These planes cause structural damage upon impact

Lex Fridman (1:42:49.540)

in both buildings and it was just a matter of time.

Lex Fridman (1:42:53.240)

And then you think about it, you add all the plastics,

Lex Fridman (1:42:56.040)

all the carpeting, all of the stuff

Niels Jorgensen (1:42:58.400)

that was burning on those floors.

Lex Fridman (1:43:00.100)

You add that to that fire load.

Niels Jorgensen (1:43:03.400)

I think it just had enough to collapse it.

Lex Fridman (1:43:05.920)

And you were in building seven for part of that day.

Niels Jorgensen (1:43:09.560)

I was just after it came down as well.

Lex Fridman (1:43:12.040)

We were aside it and we weren't in it or next to it

Niels Jorgensen (1:43:15.960)

when it actually did come down.

Lex Fridman (1:43:17.920)

But moments after we were there.

Lex Fridman (1:43:20.580)

And again, I would like to believe that it just,

Lex Fridman (1:43:25.640)

it was just that that fuel was going

Lex Fridman (1:43:28.400)

and it just took its physics, took its course and it failed.

Lex Fridman (1:43:34.140)

So physics and science aside, it's hard.

Niels Jorgensen (1:43:38.240)

It's both I would like to believe

Lex Fridman (1:43:40.640)

and it's hard to imagine that anybody would be so evil

Niels Jorgensen (1:43:43.100)

as to orchestrate parts of this

Lex Fridman (1:43:45.440)

from within the United States government.

Niels Jorgensen (1:43:47.620)

That's very difficult for me to imagine.

Lex Fridman (1:43:50.560)

You know what though, Lex, there's people

Lex Fridman (1:43:52.620)

and I won't elaborate, I won't get into it.

Lex Fridman (1:43:55.100)

Any controversial subjects or what have you.

Niels Jorgensen (1:44:00.020)

There's some people that don't have any problem at all

Lex Fridman (1:44:02.600)

perpetrating any level of evil.

Niels Jorgensen (1:44:05.600)

People like you and I who have hearts

Lex Fridman (1:44:07.320)

and we have depth of soul.

Niels Jorgensen (1:44:09.320)

We couldn't imagine it, but there's other people

Lex Fridman (1:44:11.640)

wouldn't even be a second thought.

Niels Jorgensen (1:44:13.400)

I mean, I've seen some horrific incidents in my career

Lex Fridman (1:44:17.600)

that I go home shaking my head at night going,

Niels Jorgensen (1:44:20.840)

human beings are just, they're not wired right.

Lex Fridman (1:44:23.960)

You know, I mean, I look at animals, I love animals,

Niels Jorgensen (1:44:26.240)

I love dogs especially, right.

Lex Fridman (1:44:28.200)

And I see this dog park when I train to fly airplanes now

Lex Fridman (1:44:33.160)

and something I wanted to do.

Lex Fridman (1:44:35.100)

And there's a dog park across from the airport

Lex Fridman (1:44:37.320)

and there's 60 dogs and there's bones flying up in the air

Lex Fridman (1:44:40.720)

and chew toys and sticks and they're running around

Niels Jorgensen (1:44:43.120)

having the time of their life, right.

Lex Fridman (1:44:46.040)

And they're all getting along

Lex Fridman (1:44:47.640)

and they're not hurting each other.

Lex Fridman (1:44:48.840)

They're not violating each other.

Niels Jorgensen (1:44:50.600)

They're not canceling each other.

Lex Fridman (1:44:53.160)

And I'm going, we really need to learn from these dogs.

Niels Jorgensen (1:44:56.720)

Like, right.

Lex Fridman (1:44:57.600)

And like, I just, yeah.

Niels Jorgensen (1:44:59.880)

I mean, sometimes it sounds crazy,

Lex Fridman (1:45:01.520)

but I think they're a better species than people.

Niels Jorgensen (1:45:04.960)

Unless they're rabid, they don't hurt on purpose.

Lex Fridman (1:45:07.240)

They don't, you know, they don't cut you off in traffic

Lex Fridman (1:45:09.440)

and throw you the middle finger.

Lex Fridman (1:45:10.600)

And you know, they just don't do these acts of humanity

Niels Jorgensen (1:45:16.420)

that sometimes are so vicious.

Lex Fridman (1:45:18.600)

Why do you think these conspiracy theories

Lex Fridman (1:45:20.860)

of which there's a lot take hold?

Lex Fridman (1:45:24.960)

Why do you think so many people believe

Lex Fridman (1:45:27.120)

some version of different conspiracy theories around 9 11?

Lex Fridman (1:45:31.800)

Well, you know, like many things in life,

Niels Jorgensen (1:45:34.180)

it leaves me a little conflicted.

Lex Fridman (1:45:35.640)

I have to say this, I am at the point now,

Niels Jorgensen (1:45:38.260)

I don't know who to believe anymore.

Lex Fridman (1:45:40.160)

So I could see that lending a hand to someone

Niels Jorgensen (1:45:44.760)

who's already a doubter going, oh yeah, look,

Lex Fridman (1:45:47.440)

exactly, that's what they're doing, right.

Niels Jorgensen (1:45:49.600)

I mean, you know, look at this whole virus.

Lex Fridman (1:45:52.440)

Like, who do you believe?

Lex Fridman (1:45:54.400)

Like, where'd it come from?

Lex Fridman (1:45:56.160)

You know, like, and you know, if you plant that seed,

Niels Jorgensen (1:46:01.200)

it's like that little campfire

Lex Fridman (1:46:02.560)

we were talking about earlier, right?

Niels Jorgensen (1:46:04.000)

You just toss a little gas into those embers.

Lex Fridman (1:46:06.660)

You got a fire now.

Niels Jorgensen (1:46:08.200)

I also think there's a lot of people

Lex Fridman (1:46:09.800)

with a hell of a lot of extra time on their hands, right?

Lex Fridman (1:46:12.760)

And they're really bored.

Lex Fridman (1:46:14.000)

You know?

Lex Fridman (1:46:14.840)

And the two are combined.

Lex Fridman (1:46:15.660)

Alex, yeah, man, you know, like, look,

Lex Fridman (1:46:17.480)

I was a three job Charlie, right?

Lex Fridman (1:46:19.000)

You know, one guy used to say to me, anything but home.

Niels Jorgensen (1:46:21.840)

I go, no, I got deadlines, responsibilities.

Lex Fridman (1:46:24.960)

You know, like, that's what it comes down to is like,

Niels Jorgensen (1:46:28.800)

I mean, look, we all have our hobbies and things we like

Lex Fridman (1:46:33.120)

and, you know, little nuances.

Lex Fridman (1:46:34.920)

And that's what makes us special.

Lex Fridman (1:46:36.660)

We're unique.

Niels Jorgensen (1:46:37.500)

Every person is a unique being.

Lex Fridman (1:46:40.000)

But I also think some people just,

Niels Jorgensen (1:46:43.560)

they want to cling to something.

Lex Fridman (1:46:46.000)

Like, we all want to feel accepted and belong to something.

Lex Fridman (1:46:48.800)

So all of a sudden you group up with these people

Lex Fridman (1:46:52.160)

and you all believe this fervently.

Niels Jorgensen (1:46:53.960)

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, they did it.

Lex Fridman (1:46:55.680)

They took it down.

Niels Jorgensen (1:46:56.520)

They took it down.

Lex Fridman (1:46:57.340)

And now you start going, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:46:59.840)

And I think what happens is when you're in company of people

Lex Fridman (1:47:02.440)

and you start telling each other the same thing often,

Niels Jorgensen (1:47:05.120)

you freaking believe it.

Lex Fridman (1:47:06.560)

I mean, if you keep telling me I got a gray head of hair,

Lex Fridman (1:47:08.640)

I'm going to go, you know what?

Lex Fridman (1:47:09.520)

I do.

Lex Fridman (1:47:10.360)

But no, I don't.

Lex Fridman (1:47:11.180)

I mean, right?

Niels Jorgensen (1:47:12.020)

I got that waving bye bye do.

Lex Fridman (1:47:13.080)

But like, but you know,

Niels Jorgensen (1:47:14.340)

I think when you start hearing something often,

Lex Fridman (1:47:17.040)

you start believing it.

Lex Fridman (1:47:18.620)

But I'm not going to,

Lex Fridman (1:47:19.460)

I'm not going to doubt their intelligence.

Niels Jorgensen (1:47:21.000)

I'm not going to doubt their intentions,

Lex Fridman (1:47:22.600)

but I just don't see it as being plausible.

Niels Jorgensen (1:47:25.920)

I just, I, it would be too,

Lex Fridman (1:47:29.520)

too big of an operation to successfully happen.

Niels Jorgensen (1:47:33.920)

I, you know, I mean, look, there's other things that,

Lex Fridman (1:47:37.360)

you know, I won't say it on the interview there,

Lex Fridman (1:47:40.160)

but like I have my doubts with certain things,

Lex Fridman (1:47:43.120)

you know, that, that.

Niels Jorgensen (1:47:45.040)

I mean, conspiracy theories take hold for a reason.

Lex Fridman (1:47:49.580)

Cause some of them are true.

Niels Jorgensen (1:47:50.940)

No, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:47:52.460)

The hard thing is just to know which ones is the problem.

Lex Fridman (1:47:55.060)

When you don't have facts, right?

Lex Fridman (1:47:57.700)

Or you don't know who to trust.

Niels Jorgensen (1:47:58.860)

Sometimes when you don't have facts,

Lex Fridman (1:47:59.920)

when you don't have figures and you don't have science,

Niels Jorgensen (1:48:03.100)

it's hard to take someone's word on it.

Lex Fridman (1:48:05.540)

You know, I had a conversation

Lex Fridman (1:48:06.940)

with someone a while back, right?

Lex Fridman (1:48:08.460)

And the guy's like, just, just dedicated atheist.

Lex Fridman (1:48:13.080)

And he thinks I'm an idiot for believing in God.

Lex Fridman (1:48:16.300)

And he's like, yo, you're one of those jerks

Niels Jorgensen (1:48:18.220)

who believes in creation.

Lex Fridman (1:48:19.220)

And I said, well, I do.

Lex Fridman (1:48:20.980)

Well, what about the big bang theory?

Lex Fridman (1:48:23.020)

He's going on his diatribe about the science

Lex Fridman (1:48:25.260)

and the gases and the chemistry.

Lex Fridman (1:48:26.700)

And I'm going, dude,

Niels Jorgensen (1:48:27.740)

I barely got through high school chemistry, slow down.

Lex Fridman (1:48:30.980)

And he went on a tangent and all of a sudden I stopped.

Niels Jorgensen (1:48:33.300)

I went, who, who created the gas and the molecules

Lex Fridman (1:48:39.100)

and the stuff you're talking about and the collisions?

Lex Fridman (1:48:41.780)

And he was furious and stoned off.

Lex Fridman (1:48:44.740)

And I got him.

Lex Fridman (1:48:45.740)

And again, I had no facts.

Lex Fridman (1:48:47.540)

I had no figure.

Niels Jorgensen (1:48:48.380)

He didn't either, but I stumped him.

Lex Fridman (1:48:51.980)

But sometimes when you can't show something,

Niels Jorgensen (1:48:54.260)

people need to see something tangible.

Lex Fridman (1:48:56.940)

They need to see it in their hand to believe it.

Lex Fridman (1:48:59.860)

And that's the real hard thing about faith.

Lex Fridman (1:49:02.540)

I see it in action.

Niels Jorgensen (1:49:04.380)

People restore my faith.

Lex Fridman (1:49:06.560)

And then I say to myself, well,

Niels Jorgensen (1:49:07.660)

there can't be that many dummies in this world

Lex Fridman (1:49:09.780)

if there's so many billions of us believing

Lex Fridman (1:49:11.780)

in this higher power, this higher, right?

Lex Fridman (1:49:13.860)

I mean, and you said, you said earlier,

Niels Jorgensen (1:49:16.540)

like you believe most people are good and I do too.

Lex Fridman (1:49:20.620)

The bad outshine the good because the bad get the press.

Lex Fridman (1:49:24.840)

Right?

Lex Fridman (1:49:25.680)

If it bleeds, it leads.

Niels Jorgensen (1:49:26.740)

That's just, you know, like, think about it.

Lex Fridman (1:49:28.900)

How many more damn zombie apocalypse movies can we make?

Lex Fridman (1:49:32.360)

Right?

Lex Fridman (1:49:33.200)

I didn't even know there was that many zombies.

Niels Jorgensen (1:49:34.340)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:49:35.180)

And it just seems like every other show

Niels Jorgensen (1:49:36.440)

is just guys like, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:49:38.140)

bashing each other's heads in with bats with nails in it.

Lex Fridman (1:49:40.660)

And it's like, after a while, it's like,

Lex Fridman (1:49:41.900)

all right, gosh, you gotta get a new boogeyman here.

Lex Fridman (1:49:44.180)

You know, right?

Lex Fridman (1:49:45.020)

Like, but seriously, like.

Lex Fridman (1:49:47.540)

But meanwhile, human civilization

Lex Fridman (1:49:49.460)

is getting better and better.

Niels Jorgensen (1:49:50.380)

We're just like making Hollywood movies.

Lex Fridman (1:49:52.580)

They just.

Niels Jorgensen (1:49:53.400)

No, we're getting better and better,

Lex Fridman (1:49:54.240)

but we're treating each other worse and worse.

Niels Jorgensen (1:49:55.660)

You would think with all this technology

Lex Fridman (1:49:57.180)

and all the knowledge and all the,

Lex Fridman (1:49:59.080)

it's like, what the hell is going on sometimes?

Lex Fridman (1:50:01.820)

Like, I really want to see the good.

Lex Fridman (1:50:04.380)

And I think maybe, maybe the level of bad

Lex Fridman (1:50:06.540)

that we're seeing was always existent.

Niels Jorgensen (1:50:08.660)

It's just now everything is instantaneous news

Lex Fridman (1:50:11.340)

and flashes and tweets and this and this.

Niels Jorgensen (1:50:13.540)

Like, like, you know.

Lex Fridman (1:50:15.820)

Well, with the technology we have,

Niels Jorgensen (1:50:17.440)

it's also come to the light.

Lex Fridman (1:50:18.540)

So you get to see all these fights.

Niels Jorgensen (1:50:20.660)

It almost, I think that's step one

Lex Fridman (1:50:22.660)

of dealing with the problem is revealing it

Niels Jorgensen (1:50:25.540)

in its full beautiful light.

Lex Fridman (1:50:27.260)

Oh yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:50:28.180)

How much of a bickering species we are.

Lex Fridman (1:50:29.980)

50 years ago, a guy like me who loves to talk,

Lex Fridman (1:50:32.300)

how the hell would I have gotten an opportunity

Lex Fridman (1:50:33.980)

to have someone listen to me and have, right?

Niels Jorgensen (1:50:36.300)

I love this.

Lex Fridman (1:50:37.140)

This is amazing.

Niels Jorgensen (1:50:37.960)

It's cool.

Lex Fridman (1:50:38.800)

But like, but you didn't have that arena.

Niels Jorgensen (1:50:41.100)

You didn't have all these things.

Lex Fridman (1:50:42.500)

My grandfather, Nels, God rest him, he died in 1979.

Niels Jorgensen (1:50:45.940)

I mean, that dude didn't even want to have

Lex Fridman (1:50:47.420)

a checking account.

Niels Jorgensen (1:50:48.420)

He would walk to each store, each, the phone company,

Lex Fridman (1:50:51.220)

the gas company, this company, and pay the bill in person.

Niels Jorgensen (1:50:54.780)

He didn't trust the bank.

Lex Fridman (1:50:57.300)

And it was like, now, ATMs, this, that,

Niels Jorgensen (1:51:00.660)

he would be overwhelmed.

Lex Fridman (1:51:01.620)

He'd be just like, I mean, I love my dad,

Lex Fridman (1:51:04.100)

but to watch him on his iPad is comical, right?

Lex Fridman (1:51:07.220)

He calls my niece's boyfriend, who's a tech guy,

Niels Jorgensen (1:51:09.620)

Matt, Matt, if you listen, he's the greatest.

Lex Fridman (1:51:12.100)

He'll have this poor guy on the phone for like hours.

Niels Jorgensen (1:51:14.340)

Like the second you'll walk in to see my father, my kids,

Lex Fridman (1:51:17.780)

hey, do me a favor, you fucking straighten out this pad.

Lex Fridman (1:51:20.220)

And it's comical because I'm looking at my dad

Lex Fridman (1:51:23.820)

and I'm going, he was born when Hitler started World War II.

Niels Jorgensen (1:51:28.380)

Yeah, wow.

Lex Fridman (1:51:29.220)

And I'm going, he's seen all of that.

Niels Jorgensen (1:51:30.500)

Oh, my wife's grandmother was born in 1900 in Czechoslovakia

Lex Fridman (1:51:34.460)

and she died in 1998.

Niels Jorgensen (1:51:35.900)

I'm going, holy, the stuff she saw in the span of her life,

Lex Fridman (1:51:40.340)

just, it's just incredible.

Lex Fridman (1:51:42.100)

But what troubles me sometimes is with all of these advances

Lex Fridman (1:51:45.100)

and all these devices, this is what I say to my kids,

Lex Fridman (1:51:49.860)

look up from the phone and look up, right?

Lex Fridman (1:51:54.700)

Because we don't talk anymore.

Niels Jorgensen (1:51:56.780)

I saw a girl literally, and I shouldn't say girl, guy,

Lex Fridman (1:52:01.500)

whatever, I saw a person literally just about walking

Niels Jorgensen (1:52:04.380)

to an open manhole cover texting.

Lex Fridman (1:52:07.100)

And I'm going, that's scary

Niels Jorgensen (1:52:08.700)

because your awareness is gone.

Lex Fridman (1:52:11.940)

And it's, I've been at restaurants, groups of people

Lex Fridman (1:52:16.620)

and they're texting, they're texting each other

Lex Fridman (1:52:18.860)

just sitting on the other side of the table.

Niels Jorgensen (1:52:20.260)

I'm like, put the freaking thing down

Lex Fridman (1:52:22.300)

and have a conversation.

Lex Fridman (1:52:23.580)

And that's the thing, we've lost the art of conversation.

Lex Fridman (1:52:26.140)

You know, like, my wife runs, she has this running joke.

Niels Jorgensen (1:52:30.140)

She goes, there's a lot going on up there.

Lex Fridman (1:52:31.860)

And I'm like, yeah, because I really, I'm inquisitive.

Niels Jorgensen (1:52:34.300)

I'm excited about life.

Lex Fridman (1:52:35.580)

I love to meet people.

Niels Jorgensen (1:52:36.460)

I love to learn.

Lex Fridman (1:52:37.300)

I love, and the only way you can do that

Niels Jorgensen (1:52:38.940)

is to have a conversation.

Lex Fridman (1:52:40.420)

The hilarious thing about this,

Lex Fridman (1:52:41.580)

so you're obviously very charismatic.

Lex Fridman (1:52:43.620)

You got great stories.

Niels Jorgensen (1:52:44.660)

You're a great human being.

Lex Fridman (1:52:45.900)

Thank you.

Lex Fridman (1:52:46.740)

And you're talking to a guy who spent most of his life

Lex Fridman (1:52:48.300)

behind a computer hiding from people.

Niels Jorgensen (1:52:50.060)

No, no, and I don't.

Lex Fridman (1:52:50.900)

But we're like trying to bridge this.

Niels Jorgensen (1:52:52.580)

Right, but I don't mean that as a rip,

Lex Fridman (1:52:53.860)

but you, I would never know that.

Niels Jorgensen (1:52:55.540)

I would never know that because you're very engaging.

Lex Fridman (1:52:57.500)

You're very, like, I would not know,

Niels Jorgensen (1:52:59.260)

like you don't have any impediments

Lex Fridman (1:53:02.020)

to your social skills, your personal, and that's,

Lex Fridman (1:53:06.140)

and again, I don't mean it as a knock to you

Lex Fridman (1:53:08.100)

and these young people.

Niels Jorgensen (1:53:08.940)

Well, no, but this is me trying to look up

Lex Fridman (1:53:10.300)

from a smartphone is having these conversations,

Niels Jorgensen (1:53:12.740)

talking to people.

Lex Fridman (1:53:13.700)

I think it's important.

Niels Jorgensen (1:53:15.020)

I mean, some of it could be, it's always hard to know.

Lex Fridman (1:53:18.380)

Some of it could be just you and I being old school,

Niels Jorgensen (1:53:22.860)

because you grew up before the internet.

Lex Fridman (1:53:25.020)

Maybe there is joy and deep human connection

Niels Jorgensen (1:53:27.340)

to be discovered inside the smartphone.

Lex Fridman (1:53:29.580)

We don't, it doesn't seem that way,

Niels Jorgensen (1:53:31.620)

because the smartphone's so new,

Lex Fridman (1:53:33.540)

maybe we just haven't figured out those things,

Niels Jorgensen (1:53:37.260)

because there's a globalizing aspect.

Lex Fridman (1:53:39.060)

There's a opportunity for you to connect with people

Niels Jorgensen (1:53:42.060)

from across the world in ways that.

Lex Fridman (1:53:44.940)

I have cousins in Ireland and England.

Niels Jorgensen (1:53:46.580)

I love it.

Lex Fridman (1:53:47.420)

I get a FaceTime or a WhatsApp and it's like, holy crap,

Niels Jorgensen (1:53:50.860)

they're, you know, three, 4,000 miles away

Lex Fridman (1:53:53.020)

and I'm having a conversation now.

Niels Jorgensen (1:53:54.900)

I used to send my grandma in Ireland a letter.

Lex Fridman (1:53:58.020)

I adored her.

Niels Jorgensen (1:53:58.860)

She passed when I was 10.

Lex Fridman (1:54:01.620)

And, no, I'm sorry, I was 11.

Lex Fridman (1:54:03.500)

And I sent her a letter, airmailed,

Lex Fridman (1:54:07.140)

and I'd wait and I'd wait, and about two weeks later,

Niels Jorgensen (1:54:11.300)

this airmail letter would come back

Lex Fridman (1:54:13.900)

and she'd call me Master Nils William Jorgensen.

Niels Jorgensen (1:54:16.740)

I would be so excited, open that bad letter.

Lex Fridman (1:54:18.940)

Handwritten, just like. Yeah, and like,

Lex Fridman (1:54:21.260)

and then I'd write her another one

Lex Fridman (1:54:22.900)

and I just couldn't wait for letters from granny.

Lex Fridman (1:54:25.980)

And now it's like, you know, that's kind of faded away.

Lex Fridman (1:54:30.460)

Yeah, I still write letters, by the way, handwritten.

Niels Jorgensen (1:54:32.540)

I do too.

Lex Fridman (1:54:33.820)

The way this all came about was I wrote a letter

Niels Jorgensen (1:54:38.500)

to someone to say thank you for cancer research.

Lex Fridman (1:54:42.540)

I'm blessed to be alive.

Lex Fridman (1:54:44.060)

My cancer, right?

Lex Fridman (1:54:45.220)

That's a good starting point for any story.

Niels Jorgensen (1:54:47.020)

I'm blessed to be alive.

Lex Fridman (1:54:47.940)

And my cancer was one that if I got it 15 years prior

Lex Fridman (1:54:51.260)

to 19, excuse me, 2011, I was a dead man, right?

Lex Fridman (1:54:55.740)

15, 20 years before there was no drug to treat.

Niels Jorgensen (1:54:58.220)

I was gone, going home to see him.

Lex Fridman (1:55:01.420)

So there's this wonderful gentleman

Niels Jorgensen (1:55:03.580)

that donated hundreds of millions of dollars

Lex Fridman (1:55:06.100)

to cancer research, Mr. David Koch.

Niels Jorgensen (1:55:09.220)

He's since, God rest his soul, passed away.

Lex Fridman (1:55:12.100)

And he's a controversial guy, big time business titan.

Niels Jorgensen (1:55:15.700)

And, you know, there was,

Lex Fridman (1:55:17.580)

the press was just brutalizing him one day

Niels Jorgensen (1:55:20.060)

over something to do with his politics.

Lex Fridman (1:55:22.500)

Now, I'm a union guy, proudly served in unions,

Lex Fridman (1:55:26.700)

still in a union, you know?

Lex Fridman (1:55:27.860)

And he was not, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:55:29.860)

most business guys don't like unions, right?

Lex Fridman (1:55:32.300)

But, you know, most guys like me don't like working

Lex Fridman (1:55:34.660)

for $3 an hour, so we like our unions, right?

Lex Fridman (1:55:38.300)

And I reached out across the table, so to speak,

Lex Fridman (1:55:40.860)

and I sent him a handwritten letter to thank him,

Lex Fridman (1:55:43.900)

to say, we may not agree on everything,

Lex Fridman (1:55:46.140)

but I can't thank you enough.

Lex Fridman (1:55:47.300)

There's just this regular dude out there

Niels Jorgensen (1:55:49.340)

who is now living his life, watching his kids grow.

Lex Fridman (1:55:52.340)

Thanks to generous people like you

Niels Jorgensen (1:55:54.300)

who believe enough in cancer research, you've saved my life.

Lex Fridman (1:55:57.060)

Maybe, I can't say his exact dollars, but people like him.

Lex Fridman (1:56:01.500)

And he reached back out and his secretary said,

Lex Fridman (1:56:04.260)

oh, he'd like to talk to you on the phone.

Niels Jorgensen (1:56:05.380)

I go, well, he's kind of a busy guy,

Lex Fridman (1:56:07.020)

he wants to talk to me, he's a billionaire.

Lex Fridman (1:56:08.420)

And he got on the phone,

Lex Fridman (1:56:09.300)

he was like the greatest guy in the world.

Niels Jorgensen (1:56:11.220)

Invited me up to Sloan Kettering

Lex Fridman (1:56:12.580)

to dedicate a new cancer wing.

Niels Jorgensen (1:56:14.980)

It was like I was hanging out with my dad.

Lex Fridman (1:56:17.380)

And the sweetest man, just so kind, so empathy,

Niels Jorgensen (1:56:22.340)

because he was a cancer survivor.

Lex Fridman (1:56:23.940)

But now he's got the means to help people

Niels Jorgensen (1:56:28.300)

who've suffered his fate to a better place.

Lex Fridman (1:56:32.660)

And he was so real and it was so beautiful

Lex Fridman (1:56:35.460)

just to get to know, say, hey, you know what?

Lex Fridman (1:56:37.100)

This guy is a big time guy,

Lex Fridman (1:56:39.420)

but yeah, he's just a regular human like you and I.

Lex Fridman (1:56:42.860)

I'm a guy who went to night college and I went to the army

Lex Fridman (1:56:45.860)

and I'm a blue collar kind of dude.

Lex Fridman (1:56:47.700)

And here's this guy who went to MIT, like you,

Lex Fridman (1:56:49.860)

and he's a wildly successful billionaire, a genius.

Lex Fridman (1:56:53.860)

But yet he can sit down and mix it up with me

Lex Fridman (1:56:58.300)

and know that I was truly grateful.

Lex Fridman (1:56:59.980)

And that to me was just like one of the coolest

Niels Jorgensen (1:57:03.260)

little relationships I've ever had.

Lex Fridman (1:57:05.220)

It wasn't like we were hanging out,

Niels Jorgensen (1:57:06.300)

having barbecues together, but like, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:57:08.260)

it was just, I was so touched by his decency.

Niels Jorgensen (1:57:11.580)

Well, the basics of the, like cancer reveals, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:57:16.700)

it's like fundamental to the human experience.

Niels Jorgensen (1:57:18.660)

It's trauma, it's tragedy.

Lex Fridman (1:57:20.900)

It's like money, who gives a shit about money?

Niels Jorgensen (1:57:22.860)

Education, all of that is like weird new inventions.

Lex Fridman (1:57:27.140)

You know, life is short.

Niels Jorgensen (1:57:29.380)

You suffer with the various diseases.

Lex Fridman (1:57:31.340)

And that is a reminder that life is short

Lex Fridman (1:57:34.140)

and a reminder of the basic human connection.

Lex Fridman (1:57:36.220)

And that's why you can bridge that gap.

Niels Jorgensen (1:57:38.380)

Oh yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:57:39.220)

All sparked by a handwritten letter,

Niels Jorgensen (1:57:40.460)

which just makes for a hell of a story.

Lex Fridman (1:57:42.780)

And you know what, Lex?

Niels Jorgensen (1:57:43.620)

This is the commonality between us.

Lex Fridman (1:57:45.940)

A guy with three jobs to a billionaire.

Niels Jorgensen (1:57:48.540)

We both had that sense of a sledgehammer to the chest.

Lex Fridman (1:57:51.820)

Boom, you have cancer and you can't breathe

Niels Jorgensen (1:57:55.540)

for like 30 seconds.

Lex Fridman (1:57:58.380)

And then when your heart's just about to kick off

Lex Fridman (1:58:00.260)

and you take a breath and you go, I'm sorry,

Lex Fridman (1:58:02.740)

what'd you say, doc?

Niels Jorgensen (1:58:04.180)

You have cancer.

Lex Fridman (1:58:06.020)

And it don't matter what kind.

Niels Jorgensen (1:58:08.380)

One of my best buddies, Bobby's going through right now,

Lex Fridman (1:58:11.380)

a prostate, and I got way too many of my buddies

Lex Fridman (1:58:14.340)

with cancer, right?

Lex Fridman (1:58:15.740)

My buddy, Hugh, who became a vet since his first cancer,

Lex Fridman (1:58:18.580)

he was a fireman, he's now a veterinarian, right?

Lex Fridman (1:58:20.500)

He diagnosed me actually over the phone, by the way.

Niels Jorgensen (1:58:24.460)

When they couldn't figure out what was wrong with me.

Lex Fridman (1:58:25.940)

Well, Dr. Hugh, he nailed it to the T.

Lex Fridman (1:58:30.100)

And we talk.

Lex Fridman (1:58:32.340)

And the same thing that the dozen of my close friends

Niels Jorgensen (1:58:34.980)

that have cancer, the same thing we say is the fear.

Lex Fridman (1:58:39.820)

So Mr. Koch and I, we shared that same sledgehammer

Niels Jorgensen (1:58:43.340)

to the chest and that same fear.

Lex Fridman (1:58:46.020)

And it didn't matter how much money he had

Lex Fridman (1:58:47.940)

and how much I didn't.

Lex Fridman (1:58:49.460)

And you know, it's just like the morning of the trade center.

Lex Fridman (1:58:52.180)

There was big time brokers who went to their demise, right?

Lex Fridman (1:58:57.460)

Working in these firms, God rest them.

Lex Fridman (1:58:59.740)

And there was dishwashers, excuse me,

Lex Fridman (1:59:01.500)

dishwashers up on the windows on the world restaurant

Niels Jorgensen (1:59:04.740)

on the 107th floor, making five bucks an hour.

Lex Fridman (1:59:08.900)

And they died together, it didn't matter.

Niels Jorgensen (1:59:10.460)

It didn't matter if you had an armored car

Lex Fridman (1:59:12.340)

loaded with bills, you were done that day.

Lex Fridman (1:59:15.300)

And that's, I think where people need

Lex Fridman (1:59:17.460)

to humanize each other.

Niels Jorgensen (1:59:19.500)

Just because you drive around in a nice car

Lex Fridman (1:59:21.980)

and you got your own jet and you got this and you got that,

Niels Jorgensen (1:59:25.500)

don't mean nothing.

Lex Fridman (1:59:26.500)

When you're going, when you're in that vulnerable spot,

Niels Jorgensen (1:59:29.500)

you could have more money than the US reserves.

Lex Fridman (1:59:34.460)

Federal reserve, or you could have a welfare check.

Niels Jorgensen (1:59:38.900)

You're going.

Lex Fridman (1:59:40.180)

I learned that in a cancer ward.

Niels Jorgensen (1:59:41.580)

I had people in my ward that died on me.

Lex Fridman (1:59:45.140)

I was going around as a little bit of an ambassador

Niels Jorgensen (1:59:47.740)

because I was trying to, I was putting on a fake,

Lex Fridman (1:59:50.540)

I was putting on a fake like I got this, I got this.

Niels Jorgensen (1:59:53.340)

I was so scared.

Lex Fridman (1:59:54.860)

But when I got past that seven days of torture

Niels Jorgensen (20:05.820)

was working underneath, under the wing of a senior man,

Lex Fridman (20:10.340)

as we say.

Niels Jorgensen (20:10.940)

A senior man is a guy with a lot of experience.

Lex Fridman (20:13.020)

And he'll watch over you, make sure you don't veer off,

Niels Jorgensen (20:18.140)

like I veer off a lot in talking.

Lex Fridman (20:19.740)

And you don't veer off, and you get yourself hurt.

Niels Jorgensen (20:24.020)

In the morning of 1993 bombing, Henry Miller was my senior man.

Lex Fridman (20:35.700)

And I was the young guy under his wing.

Lex Fridman (20:38.620)

And he protected me.

Lex Fridman (20:41.180)

And toward the end of the day, he looked around.

Niels Jorgensen (20:43.100)

He said, kid, it's a bad day.

Lex Fridman (20:46.220)

He said, they didn't do it right.

Niels Jorgensen (20:48.860)

They blew it up in the middle.

Lex Fridman (20:51.140)

If they did it in a corner, they would

Niels Jorgensen (20:53.700)

have dropped this building half a mile down at Canal Street.

Lex Fridman (20:57.420)

But don't kid yourself.

Niels Jorgensen (20:58.500)

They'll be back, and they'll do it.

Lex Fridman (20:59.920)

And they'll do it right next time.

Lex Fridman (21:02.340)

And it's so strange and so prophetic,

Lex Fridman (21:03.980)

because he was there with them.

Niels Jorgensen (21:06.740)

He died with Dennis.

Lex Fridman (21:07.900)

He knew it.

Lex Fridman (21:09.500)

And like 1994, we had a training manual

Lex Fridman (21:11.860)

with a picture of the towers with a target.

Lex Fridman (21:14.980)

And this is not a matter of if, but a matter

Lex Fridman (21:18.780)

of when, be prepared.

Lex Fridman (21:22.060)

And it's haunting.

Lex Fridman (21:22.900)

It was like people knew, right?

Lex Fridman (21:25.100)

And we didn't stop it.

Lex Fridman (21:27.580)

And so we got off the bus, but just prior to that,

Niels Jorgensen (21:33.060)

coming over the bridge of the second tower, it's gone now.

Lex Fridman (21:36.540)

And we're just destroyed, because we're like,

Niels Jorgensen (21:38.340)

our guys are there.

Lex Fridman (21:39.060)

They're all in there.

Niels Jorgensen (21:39.980)

Now we're feeling like cowards, because we got there late.

Lex Fridman (21:43.860)

And initially, we're thinking there's

Niels Jorgensen (21:45.940)

500 guys that are gone, because there was a tent alarm

Lex Fridman (21:49.540)

assignment, which means 50, 60 fire trucks, five to six guys

Niels Jorgensen (21:56.980)

per, you know, you're looking at.

Lex Fridman (22:00.060)

At least there was even more tent alarm,

Niels Jorgensen (22:02.420)

plus multiple alarms on top of it.

Lex Fridman (22:04.780)

There was a dispatch, basically equivalent of five

Niels Jorgensen (22:07.180)

to 600 firefighters.

Lex Fridman (22:10.260)

We figured, oh, they're all in there, all gone.

Niels Jorgensen (22:12.780)

All the police officers, Port Authority police,

Lex Fridman (22:15.220)

NYPD police, court officers just up the street

Niels Jorgensen (22:18.820)

from the courts, transit cops from the train tunnels.

Lex Fridman (22:23.940)

Like, just, you know, we knew everybody was going there,

Lex Fridman (22:26.420)

and now they're gone.

Lex Fridman (22:28.540)

So what you saw, what were we looking at?

Lex Fridman (22:31.180)

What did it look like?

Lex Fridman (22:32.820)

So you saw rubble, and then you knew that many, that 105

Lex Fridman (22:37.260)

and 201, many of those guys are in the, they're dead.

Lex Fridman (22:41.300)

Yeah, and we thought 114 was in there, too.

Niels Jorgensen (22:43.500)

We didn't realize at that point.

Lex Fridman (22:44.860)

We didn't even realize that they had gotten under that truck.

Niels Jorgensen (22:47.540)

We thought they were all gone.

Lex Fridman (22:48.700)

But yeah, it looked like, it looked like a movie scene

Niels Jorgensen (22:53.340)

with just end of the earth destruction.

Lex Fridman (22:56.140)

It's just massive piles of intertwined steel,

Lex Fridman (23:01.140)

what was left of the steel.

Lex Fridman (23:02.540)

And you know, there was no cement.

Niels Jorgensen (23:05.020)

It was all just dust.

Lex Fridman (23:06.340)

And it was just a burning pile of dust and concrete

Lex Fridman (23:12.300)

and plastic.

Lex Fridman (23:13.420)

And it was just, everything was just pulverized.

Lex Fridman (23:15.700)

And it was truly hard to mentally compute that.

Lex Fridman (23:20.700)

Like, it was like, what?

Lex Fridman (23:22.420)

And then there was just fighter jets, a couple of fighter jets

Lex Fridman (23:25.900)

just circling.

Lex Fridman (23:26.980)

And you just heard them flying by over your head.

Lex Fridman (23:31.220)

I mean, you'd literally see the guy banking

Niels Jorgensen (23:32.940)

a turn around a Brooklyn bridge and just coming back.

Lex Fridman (23:35.300)

And I'm like, holy shoot, we're under attack?

Lex Fridman (23:38.660)

And we couldn't really get concrete intel

Lex Fridman (23:41.820)

as to what exactly we knew planes.

Lex Fridman (23:43.860)

But then we kept hearing there was multiple devices.

Lex Fridman (23:47.300)

There was devices in a battery tunnel.

Lex Fridman (23:49.620)

And there was devices on a George Washington bridge

Lex Fridman (23:51.860)

and in the subways.

Lex Fridman (23:52.940)

And it was just chaos.

Lex Fridman (23:54.820)

It was, I mean, we kept it together, obviously,

Niels Jorgensen (23:56.780)

because that's kind of, we try.

Lex Fridman (23:58.340)

That's what we do.

Lex Fridman (23:59.700)

But the just constant barrage of different reports,

Lex Fridman (24:03.900)

it was like, holy shoot.

Lex Fridman (24:06.020)

And then as we were being deployed,

Lex Fridman (24:07.940)

it was a little frustrating.

Lex Fridman (24:09.180)

But they were trying to take command and send us

Lex Fridman (24:11.220)

in groups now because they realized

Niels Jorgensen (24:13.460)

we have to start searching this.

Lex Fridman (24:15.900)

You could hear the alarms on the Scott Air Mask, the packs

Niels Jorgensen (24:20.220)

we wear to go into the building.

Lex Fridman (24:22.180)

It has a motion alarm.

Lex Fridman (24:23.340)

And if you stop moving for 30 seconds,

Lex Fridman (24:25.220)

it just sounds like this whining, just screaming bell.

Lex Fridman (24:29.780)

And it just keeps going and going.

Lex Fridman (24:32.780)

And you could hear multiple units of those going off.

Lex Fridman (24:35.580)

And you're like, wait a minute.

Lex Fridman (24:37.620)

There's guys with those.

Lex Fridman (24:38.900)

Where are they?

Lex Fridman (24:40.300)

And it's emanating from underneath the pile.

Lex Fridman (24:42.460)

And it was just surreal and truly like a war zone.

Lex Fridman (24:51.460)

I mean, I was a soldier in the reserves.

Lex Fridman (24:53.780)

And I never saw combat.

Lex Fridman (24:55.020)

And I would never claim that I did.

Lex Fridman (24:56.420)

But we trained.

Lex Fridman (24:58.340)

We trained for a lot of situations.

Lex Fridman (25:00.020)

And we trained in real life atmospheres and whatnot.

Lex Fridman (25:03.580)

And this was just beyond that by leaps and bounds.

Niels Jorgensen (25:06.420)

It was bizarre.

Lex Fridman (25:08.260)

Did you see the towers collapse?

Niels Jorgensen (25:10.220)

As we were coming over the bridge,

Lex Fridman (25:11.740)

the first one, as we were deploying from the firehouse,

Niels Jorgensen (25:15.660)

we had a television on.

Lex Fridman (25:16.660)

And I saw it go down.

Lex Fridman (25:21.540)

And we were so involved in getting gear together

Lex Fridman (25:24.500)

and getting teams set up and, OK, you're

Niels Jorgensen (25:27.020)

going to be with these two guys.

Lex Fridman (25:29.700)

And I just yelled, there's the guys.

Lex Fridman (25:31.380)

And they're looking at me.

Lex Fridman (25:32.500)

I dropped to my knees.

Lex Fridman (25:33.580)

And I started praying.

Lex Fridman (25:34.540)

They're like, what the hell's wrong?

Niels Jorgensen (25:36.020)

I said, I couldn't even say.

Lex Fridman (25:37.740)

I was like, 114, they're in there.

Lex Fridman (25:40.500)

And they're like, what?

Lex Fridman (25:41.500)

I said, the tower's gone.

Lex Fridman (25:43.660)

And all you saw on the TV was just this pile of dust.

Lex Fridman (25:46.380)

And I guess because they didn't see it going down,

Niels Jorgensen (25:49.580)

they probably thought I truly lost it.

Lex Fridman (25:51.700)

And then the realization came.

Niels Jorgensen (25:55.180)

It was like, wow, the tower's down.

Lex Fridman (25:57.620)

So now it was like, wow, this is really on.

Lex Fridman (26:00.060)

So we just took off and got that boss.

Lex Fridman (26:02.820)

And so if you thought many of the guys on 114 were dead,

Lex Fridman (26:10.980)

if you thought that, did you think you were going to die?

Lex Fridman (26:14.300)

I mean, if you're rushing towards the rubble?

Niels Jorgensen (26:19.180)

As crazy as it sounds, I never thought that the other tower

Lex Fridman (26:22.660)

would go down.

Niels Jorgensen (26:23.500)

I said, OK, maybe some freak chance that one went down.

Lex Fridman (26:27.260)

But no, the other one's not going to go.

Niels Jorgensen (26:29.020)

They're built so strong.

Lex Fridman (26:30.820)

I was in those towers so many times.

Niels Jorgensen (26:32.580)

I mean, I ate dinner up in the top floor restaurant windows

Lex Fridman (26:35.140)

on the world.

Lex Fridman (26:35.780)

And I'm saying, nah, there's no way.

Lex Fridman (26:38.500)

Like, how the hell did this one happen?

Lex Fridman (26:41.220)

But I was having a hard time mentally processing

Lex Fridman (26:45.180)

that the building was gone.

Lex Fridman (26:46.660)

And believe me, if you don't have fear in this industry

Lex Fridman (26:51.540)

and police, fire, military, then you're kidding yourself

Niels Jorgensen (26:55.860)

or you're a danger to everyone.

Lex Fridman (26:57.780)

I don't care who it is, as tough as they are, this and that.

Niels Jorgensen (27:00.220)

Everybody has a certain level of fear

Lex Fridman (27:02.300)

with doing this.

Lex Fridman (27:03.460)

And I don't care how long you do it,

Lex Fridman (27:06.020)

there's always that chance of something going bad.

Lex Fridman (27:08.460)

And everyone who does it has that certain amount of fear.

Lex Fridman (27:12.820)

But at that point, it was such a feeling of disbelief

Niels Jorgensen (27:16.340)

that fear wasn't even kicking in.

Lex Fridman (27:18.180)

It was just like, what the hell just happened?

Lex Fridman (27:20.700)

And I honestly think it was almost like a shock.

Lex Fridman (27:24.180)

And it just stayed that whole day.

Lex Fridman (27:27.300)

So the building is, before it collapses, is burning.

Lex Fridman (27:30.580)

It's just burning.

Niels Jorgensen (27:31.300)

I mean, upper floors, up in the 78th, up to the 80s.

Lex Fridman (27:35.180)

And then the way that the cut was from the plane,

Niels Jorgensen (27:39.180)

it wasn't just straight across.

Lex Fridman (27:40.580)

It was from the 78th, then on up to maybe the 86th.

Lex Fridman (27:43.820)

And then the jet fuel had come down and was burning down.

Lex Fridman (27:49.700)

And there was people on the ground

Niels Jorgensen (27:51.940)

who were doused with jet fuel that was already burning.

Lex Fridman (27:56.500)

And they were lit on fire on the ground.

Niels Jorgensen (27:59.020)

It was just insane how vast the destruction path was.

Lex Fridman (28:04.060)

As a firefighter, what are you supposed

Lex Fridman (28:06.860)

to do with that scale of fire?

Lex Fridman (28:11.300)

I think the first bosses in, the first chiefs,

Niels Jorgensen (28:14.820)

were just going to do their best to get,

Lex Fridman (28:18.500)

as we get hose lines, what our whole theory is,

Niels Jorgensen (28:22.420)

or our tactics is, to get water at the fire,

Lex Fridman (28:25.380)

at the base of the fire, and get the truck company,

Niels Jorgensen (28:28.700)

which is the ladder company.

Lex Fridman (28:30.180)

They're the guys who break the doors down, put ladders up,

Niels Jorgensen (28:32.580)

this and that, to get them to where the life is most

Lex Fridman (28:35.860)

expected and get them out of there.

Lex Fridman (28:38.380)

So I think the chiefs tactics at that point

Lex Fridman (28:40.580)

was, let me get multiple engine companies.

Niels Jorgensen (28:42.620)

Let me get four, five, six hose lines

Lex Fridman (28:45.180)

fighting this fire, this massive fire.

Lex Fridman (28:47.820)

And let me get 15, 20 truck companies up there just

Lex Fridman (28:51.460)

yoking people out of there.

Niels Jorgensen (28:52.820)

Yeah, but you got to go up the stair.

Lex Fridman (28:54.460)

Everything's not working.

Niels Jorgensen (28:55.860)

Yeah, guys had to walk up 80, 80, 90, 100 flights of stairs.

Lex Fridman (29:00.580)

And there's audio of officers and firefighters

Niels Jorgensen (29:06.340)

speaking to each other on the radio channels.

Lex Fridman (29:08.180)

And unfortunately, at that point in time,

Niels Jorgensen (29:09.780)

we had very, very bad communication system.

Lex Fridman (29:12.580)

We'd been fighting for years to get radios

Niels Jorgensen (29:14.700)

that work properly.

Lex Fridman (29:15.660)

We couldn't because it was a lot of money.

Niels Jorgensen (29:18.460)

We fought for years to get the full bunker firefighting

Lex Fridman (29:21.300)

suits, which is the pants and the coat.

Niels Jorgensen (29:23.700)

We used to have just coats and these roll up rubber boots

Lex Fridman (29:26.620)

and guys were burning to death and we had to fight.

Lex Fridman (29:29.700)

And unfortunately we lost three guys

Lex Fridman (29:31.780)

in one vicious, vicious fire in 1994.

Lex Fridman (29:35.580)

And then they finally said, enough's enough.

Lex Fridman (29:38.340)

Give these guys the gear.

Lex Fridman (29:40.380)

So it's a strange phenomenon in the first responder world

Lex Fridman (29:45.740)

and in the military world.

Niels Jorgensen (29:47.780)

It's really one of the most important things

Lex Fridman (29:49.820)

that takes place in society.

Niels Jorgensen (29:51.740)

The most pertinent organizations.

Lex Fridman (29:54.660)

And we can't get the funding we need.

Niels Jorgensen (29:56.660)

It's crazy.

Lex Fridman (29:57.540)

They'll throw money at every nonsensical thing.

Lex Fridman (2:00:00.060)

and the days leading up to it,

Lex Fridman (2:00:01.820)

I'd go around and try to comfort the other cancer patients.

Niels Jorgensen (2:00:05.540)

I had this one older African American gentleman,

Lex Fridman (2:00:07.780)

he couldn't talk because he had

Niels Jorgensen (2:00:08.820)

such advanced throat cancer.

Lex Fridman (2:00:10.860)

He was my roommate for a little while,

Lex Fridman (2:00:12.500)

but then he got worse so they had to put him by himself.

Lex Fridman (2:00:16.860)

And you couldn't understand what he was saying

Niels Jorgensen (2:00:18.340)

because his throat was just so radiated from the radiation.

Lex Fridman (2:00:22.220)

But if you put your ear down to him,

Niels Jorgensen (2:00:25.780)

you could make out what he was saying.

Lex Fridman (2:00:28.740)

And I'm not faulting the nurses

Lex Fridman (2:00:30.140)

for maybe not wanting to do that, right?

Lex Fridman (2:00:31.740)

They're busy, they got a ton going on,

Niels Jorgensen (2:00:34.300)

they can't spend, you know.

Lex Fridman (2:00:36.020)

So if he was in need, I'd put my ear down

Lex Fridman (2:00:39.700)

and I'd find out and I'd go get it for him.

Lex Fridman (2:00:42.780)

So when they moved me down the hall,

Niels Jorgensen (2:00:47.900)

they asked me to come down with my IV tower.

Lex Fridman (2:00:50.380)

He needed me.

Lex Fridman (2:00:52.780)

And I knew it was bad because he just, his look was gone.

Lex Fridman (2:00:57.780)

And I said, sir, what do you need?

Lex Fridman (2:01:01.700)

And he whispered, call my sister, I'm going.

Lex Fridman (2:01:06.180)

He had only one survivor in his whole life.

Lex Fridman (2:01:09.460)

And she was in North Carolina and he wanted her to know

Lex Fridman (2:01:11.620)

she couldn't get up, she was elderly.

Lex Fridman (2:01:14.780)

And I got the nurse and I got on the phone

Lex Fridman (2:01:18.220)

and I called his sister and I said, ma'm,

Niels Jorgensen (2:01:20.500)

I explained who I was.

Lex Fridman (2:01:23.380)

And I said, he can't really talk.

Niels Jorgensen (2:01:26.380)

He can't really verbalize too well right now,

Lex Fridman (2:01:29.940)

but he wants to say he loves you.

Lex Fridman (2:01:38.260)

And I put the phone down and he told her he loved her

Lex Fridman (2:01:42.180)

and he said, I'm going home.

Lex Fridman (2:01:46.460)

And that was it.

Lex Fridman (2:01:47.380)

And I hung the phone up and I said, ma'm, I'm so sorry.

Niels Jorgensen (2:01:50.700)

I said, you know, they'll notify you.

Lex Fridman (2:01:53.700)

And I stayed with him for a while holding his hand

Lex Fridman (2:01:55.620)

and then, you know, they wanted him to rest.

Lex Fridman (2:01:57.740)

And then I left and then I got the tap an hour later

Lex Fridman (2:02:01.940)

and they said, I'm sorry, he's gone.

Lex Fridman (2:02:05.580)

And then there was another girl and she was a young girl

Niels Jorgensen (2:02:09.500)

from one of the areas I work, young African American girl

Lex Fridman (2:02:13.260)

where I used to respond and I didn't know her,

Lex Fridman (2:02:14.820)

but I knew her neighborhood.

Lex Fridman (2:02:15.900)

And she had what I had, but they weren't sure which one.

Niels Jorgensen (2:02:20.700)

You know, leukemias, they're an elusive beast.

Lex Fridman (2:02:22.940)

There's 49 of them, right?

Lex Fridman (2:02:24.340)

And each one of them is like,

Lex Fridman (2:02:26.740)

they got their own little nuances,

Niels Jorgensen (2:02:28.900)

own specific treatments.

Lex Fridman (2:02:30.260)

So if they don't know what you have,

Niels Jorgensen (2:02:31.620)

they don't know what to do for you.

Lex Fridman (2:02:34.020)

And she refused to let him drill into her hip

Niels Jorgensen (2:02:35.940)

to take the marrow because it's vicious.

Lex Fridman (2:02:37.740)

It hurts so much.

Niels Jorgensen (2:02:38.700)

It's like someone born into your hip with a wood drill

Lex Fridman (2:02:41.620)

and it's no joke.

Lex Fridman (2:02:45.820)

And they asked me to try to convince her

Lex Fridman (2:02:48.500)

to let them do that or she was gonna die.

Niels Jorgensen (2:02:52.220)

Cause if they couldn't figure it out, it was advancing quickly.

Lex Fridman (2:02:54.900)

She was, so I talked to her and she said,

Niels Jorgensen (2:02:59.340)

I can't, I can't, I'm too scared.

Lex Fridman (2:03:02.060)

I said, but are you more scared to die?

Lex Fridman (2:03:03.740)

And she said, I am.

Lex Fridman (2:03:04.940)

I said, okay, I'll stay with you.

Niels Jorgensen (2:03:07.300)

I'll hold your hand.

Lex Fridman (2:03:08.340)

You squeeze it as hard as you want.

Niels Jorgensen (2:03:10.660)

I said, if you want, they'll give you like a towel

Lex Fridman (2:03:13.380)

or something to bite on, whatever.

Niels Jorgensen (2:03:14.580)

I said, but you get that pain out,

Lex Fridman (2:03:16.580)

but you need to do this so you can get saved.

Lex Fridman (2:03:19.940)

And she said, okay.

Lex Fridman (2:03:22.700)

And they came in and they, this huge thick needle,

Niels Jorgensen (2:03:25.260)

they just bore it into you.

Lex Fridman (2:03:27.100)

And she's screaming for her life

Lex Fridman (2:03:29.020)

and she's squeezing my fingers so hard and so hard.

Lex Fridman (2:03:32.380)

And I said, that's okay, hon.

Niels Jorgensen (2:03:33.420)

You keep going, you keep going.

Lex Fridman (2:03:34.820)

We got it.

Niels Jorgensen (2:03:35.660)

It's just 10 more seconds, 10 more seconds.

Lex Fridman (2:03:38.620)

They got it.

Niels Jorgensen (2:03:39.980)

They figured out her treatment

Lex Fridman (2:03:42.300)

and they got her onto her road to recovery.

Lex Fridman (2:03:44.380)

And then I spent a long time asking God, why do I have cancer?

Lex Fridman (2:03:55.500)

Then I stopped and I went, wait a minute.

Niels Jorgensen (2:03:57.460)

I didn't die that day with my friends.

Lex Fridman (2:04:02.060)

Shame on me for asking them why I have cancer.

Niels Jorgensen (2:04:04.500)

I had 10 years after 9 11 with such great ears.

Lex Fridman (2:04:08.940)

And I got to watch my little girl being born

Niels Jorgensen (2:04:14.820)

when John never got to see his son.

Lex Fridman (2:04:16.980)

So it was all gravy after that.

Lex Fridman (2:04:20.140)

And I said, but now I know why I have my cancer

Lex Fridman (2:04:23.100)

because I can empathize with people who have it.

Lex Fridman (2:04:27.860)

And I can try to be their voice when they can't talk,

Lex Fridman (2:04:32.500)

be their shield to try to take that pain

Niels Jorgensen (2:04:35.660)

because I can understand, I can walk their walk.

Lex Fridman (2:04:41.500)

And now I thank God for my cancer

Niels Jorgensen (2:04:44.100)

because it's made me a better human being.

Lex Fridman (2:04:45.940)

It's made me, I'm not gonna lie,

Niels Jorgensen (2:04:47.780)

it brought a lot of anger for a while

Lex Fridman (2:04:49.340)

and my family suffered it,

Lex Fridman (2:04:52.260)

but I really tried to go past that and heal

Lex Fridman (2:04:55.980)

and part of living out in the country.

Niels Jorgensen (2:04:57.940)

It's very, very healing for the mind and the soul.

Lex Fridman (2:05:00.980)

But I now thank God for the cancer

Niels Jorgensen (2:05:04.700)

because it humbled me.

Lex Fridman (2:05:06.300)

I didn't really need humbling.

Niels Jorgensen (2:05:07.460)

I wasn't an arrogant puffed up type of person at all,

Lex Fridman (2:05:11.380)

but maybe I was running away at myself a little bit

Lex Fridman (2:05:15.180)

and working on a TV show, I'm fine, man.

Lex Fridman (2:05:17.500)

30 at the time, well, I was 42, I got sick.

Niels Jorgensen (2:05:20.940)

Life was cruising, man, it was great.

Lex Fridman (2:05:23.660)

And then all of a sudden it was like a blow out

Niels Jorgensen (2:05:26.740)

on the highway in the middle of the night

Lex Fridman (2:05:28.260)

and you were just veering off towards the guardrail.

Niels Jorgensen (2:05:30.820)

Yeah, you remembered, you're reminded that you're mortal

Lex Fridman (2:05:35.140)

and that's ultimately a connection to all the rest of us.

Niels Jorgensen (2:05:39.300)

Oh yeah, it's a good thing though,

Lex Fridman (2:05:41.780)

because that's the problem, I think.

Niels Jorgensen (2:05:42.900)

There's a lot of people running around

Lex Fridman (2:05:44.140)

and thinking they're immortal, right?

Lex Fridman (2:05:46.260)

You know, when you look at it, Lex, right?

Lex Fridman (2:05:47.460)

You look at the heartache in a lot of segments of people

Lex Fridman (2:05:51.380)

and anytime like someone that's got fame and wealth

Lex Fridman (2:05:54.740)

and success and they die tragically,

Niels Jorgensen (2:05:58.580)

a lot of times it's from a substance abuse

Lex Fridman (2:06:01.300)

or just some horrible death.

Lex Fridman (2:06:05.780)

And I used to say to myself,

Lex Fridman (2:06:07.580)

how the hell would someone with that much money

Lex Fridman (2:06:10.180)

and that much fame and this freaking mansion

Lex Fridman (2:06:12.300)

and I love cars, my son and I are just big car heads,

Niels Jorgensen (2:06:16.380)

you know, I'm like, you know, this guy's got a collection

Lex Fridman (2:06:19.420)

of cars and he overdosed because he was sad.

Lex Fridman (2:06:23.700)

And I'm going, how the frig are you sad?

Lex Fridman (2:06:25.860)

But then I stop and I go, okay,

Niels Jorgensen (2:06:28.900)

because maybe he doesn't have any idea who loves him.

Lex Fridman (2:06:31.740)

He's got a lot of people clinging onto him

Niels Jorgensen (2:06:33.700)

because of his success.

Lex Fridman (2:06:35.380)

And he just, he can't fill that void, you know?

Lex Fridman (2:06:40.020)

And then they fill the void with something destructive.

Lex Fridman (2:06:42.700)

And I'm not bashing people that have substance abuse

Niels Jorgensen (2:06:46.860)

problems or alcohol problems, I don't mean it that way.

Lex Fridman (2:06:49.340)

But what I mean is it's just sad that their level

Niels Jorgensen (2:06:54.340)

of despair is so high, on the surface,

Lex Fridman (2:06:57.660)

they look like they just got everything going on.

Lex Fridman (2:06:59.860)

It's all great, right?

Lex Fridman (2:07:00.700)

They're still human, still got to deal with the same.

Lex Fridman (2:07:02.860)

Yeah, exactly, because they want love, right?

Lex Fridman (2:07:05.500)

They want love and they can't really find it.

Niels Jorgensen (2:07:11.140)

Well, first of all, that's true for all of us.

Lex Fridman (2:07:12.700)

I think we're deeply lonely and looking for love

Lex Fridman (2:07:14.700)

and when we find it, that's what friendship is.

Lex Fridman (2:07:16.820)

Absolutely.

Lex Fridman (2:07:17.780)

And then that's true for whether you're super rich

Lex Fridman (2:07:21.060)

or super poor, it's all the same journey.

Niels Jorgensen (2:07:23.980)

My dad said all the time, kid, you're gonna end up

Lex Fridman (2:07:26.540)

working with hundreds of guys and you'll love a lot of them

Lex Fridman (2:07:30.060)

but he says when it's all said and done

Lex Fridman (2:07:32.220)

and you're all like me and if you've still got

Niels Jorgensen (2:07:33.780)

two or three of them that you talk to and you'll love.

Lex Fridman (2:07:36.500)

And I tell you what, I mean, I have thanked the Lord

Niels Jorgensen (2:07:40.860)

more than two or three of them and I have my six,

Lex Fridman (2:07:43.420)

I call it my six, it's the six guys that are gonna

Lex Fridman (2:07:45.580)

carry my coffin when I'm gone, right?

Lex Fridman (2:07:47.820)

Because I know this cancer's gonna come back, I know it.

Lex Fridman (2:07:50.340)

Like we get multiples, right?

Lex Fridman (2:07:51.940)

My friend Yvette just got his second.

Niels Jorgensen (2:07:54.180)

My friend Mike's had five of them.

Lex Fridman (2:07:56.180)

My other Mike has two of them, yeah.

Lex Fridman (2:07:58.740)

But I wasn't ready to accept it in 2011.

Lex Fridman (2:08:03.980)

There was so much more to do and it was so much,

Niels Jorgensen (2:08:06.260)

I was so scared, I'm like wow, who's gonna take care

Lex Fridman (2:08:08.780)

of my kids and who, you know, they were little.

Lex Fridman (2:08:11.500)

Nine, 11 and 14, right?

Lex Fridman (2:08:13.460)

It's like what the hell, I have two girls and a boy

Niels Jorgensen (2:08:15.780)

in between and they're beautiful kids.

Lex Fridman (2:08:17.220)

They're such good, good children, adults now.

Niels Jorgensen (2:08:20.060)

I mean, but you know, my wife's a drill sergeant,

Lex Fridman (2:08:23.460)

she's tough, she don't mess, you know, she's this big.

Lex Fridman (2:08:26.620)

So you're the softy in the family, I'm just kidding.

Lex Fridman (2:08:28.820)

Well, you know, it's funny because my son said to me,

Niels Jorgensen (2:08:32.220)

my son's 21 now, he's a good kid, you know.

Lex Fridman (2:08:35.140)

And he says to me, back when he was like 12,

Niels Jorgensen (2:08:38.620)

he goes, dad, I don't want you to be offended

Lex Fridman (2:08:41.460)

but I'm really scared of mom,

Niels Jorgensen (2:08:42.740)

I'm not really that scared of you.

Lex Fridman (2:08:44.220)

And you know, like I cracked up because it's true,

Niels Jorgensen (2:08:46.540)

she's gotta stand on like a milk crate to reach him

Lex Fridman (2:08:49.500)

because you know, she's tiny and he's tall,

Lex Fridman (2:08:51.580)

but it's true, but you know, but she was hard but fair,

Lex Fridman (2:08:54.380)

but loved, that's, see, this is the thing,

Niels Jorgensen (2:08:56.900)

you take any child anywhere from any background,

Lex Fridman (2:09:03.700)

if you love them, you nurture them,

Niels Jorgensen (2:09:05.620)

you teach them and you guide them,

Lex Fridman (2:09:07.060)

you have a successful adult.

Lex Fridman (2:09:09.380)

And see, that's the problem in our society,

Lex Fridman (2:09:12.500)

it's not judgmental, I'm not judging anyone,

Lex Fridman (2:09:15.180)

but we need to try harder as parents

Lex Fridman (2:09:19.460)

as siblings, as friends,

Lex Fridman (2:09:22.060)

but especially when we're blessed with a child,

Lex Fridman (2:09:26.260)

it's like, you gotta put that child first,

Niels Jorgensen (2:09:29.900)

it's like being a military personal responder,

Lex Fridman (2:09:32.500)

it's not about you anymore, now it's the team.

Lex Fridman (2:09:35.780)

So that little child is now the team

Lex Fridman (2:09:39.180)

and you know, your wife or your significant other,

Niels Jorgensen (2:09:42.140)

you know, like it's not about you anymore.

Lex Fridman (2:09:44.980)

And see, that's the problem is people have a hard time

Niels Jorgensen (2:09:48.900)

not making it about them, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:09:51.700)

like now it's really weird, my kids are 19, 21 and 24

Lex Fridman (2:09:55.300)

and they hardly wanna hang with me

Lex Fridman (2:09:56.420)

because they're busy in their life, we love each other,

Niels Jorgensen (2:09:59.700)

they're probably tired of hearing me go on

Lex Fridman (2:10:01.380)

and you know, preach and whatever,

Lex Fridman (2:10:03.020)

but like, but they're adults,

Lex Fridman (2:10:04.740)

we did pretty much the crux of what we had to do

Niels Jorgensen (2:10:08.420)

to put them into adulthood.

Lex Fridman (2:10:11.620)

And I look back and I go, wow,

Niels Jorgensen (2:10:13.380)

I wish I didn't work so much and I wish,

Lex Fridman (2:10:15.380)

but then I say, no, but it was okay,

Niels Jorgensen (2:10:17.340)

my wife stayed home, good lessons, good, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:10:21.180)

just like.

Lex Fridman (2:10:22.020)

But ultimately, like you said, it's love.

Lex Fridman (2:10:24.700)

It is, it's the common,

Niels Jorgensen (2:10:27.260)

love is the most important ingredient on this earth

Lex Fridman (2:10:31.460)

and that's the problem what's going on right now,

Lex Fridman (2:10:34.780)

like take politics out of it, right?

Lex Fridman (2:10:37.620)

Take polarizing each other against each other,

Niels Jorgensen (2:10:40.020)

take all that crap out of it

Lex Fridman (2:10:41.980)

and just airdrop a bunch of love, right?

Lex Fridman (2:10:45.620)

Like when I worked on Rescuing Me, right?

Lex Fridman (2:10:49.100)

I love those people so much, they were such great,

Niels Jorgensen (2:10:51.300)

we had such a great crew and they worked so hard.

Lex Fridman (2:10:53.300)

You're a celebrity.

Niels Jorgensen (2:10:54.180)

No, no, no, not at all.

Lex Fridman (2:10:55.980)

If I was, it didn't really work out so good.

Niels Jorgensen (2:10:58.860)

I went on to be in the stagehand,

Lex Fridman (2:11:01.060)

no, I'm not pretty, but they don't want old guys

Niels Jorgensen (2:11:04.780)

waving bye bye hairdos, but it was funny,

Lex Fridman (2:11:08.780)

the crew, we became really tight,

Lex Fridman (2:11:10.340)

we had like, shoot, like 80, 90 people on a set, right?

Lex Fridman (2:11:14.860)

And you know, the first few episodes,

Niels Jorgensen (2:11:17.620)

everybody's trying to feel each other out

Lex Fridman (2:11:19.180)

because you know, you work with different crews,

Niels Jorgensen (2:11:20.560)

different people and this is going back,

Lex Fridman (2:11:24.220)

starting in 2004, so it was a different time

Lex Fridman (2:11:27.260)

and I love to hug people

Lex Fridman (2:11:30.140)

because to me, a hug is a true expression

Niels Jorgensen (2:11:33.500)

of love and caring.

Lex Fridman (2:11:35.540)

You may not know a person a long time,

Lex Fridman (2:11:37.140)

but you say, I care about you with a hug.

Lex Fridman (2:11:38.820)

Can I add just a tiny tangent?

Niels Jorgensen (2:11:41.140)

This was in the midst of COVID when I was in Boston

Lex Fridman (2:11:44.860)

and it was, you know, masks, like triple masks, nobody.

Lex Fridman (2:11:49.300)

And when I went to see Joe here

Lex Fridman (2:11:51.780)

when he was trying to convince me to move to Austin,

Niels Jorgensen (2:11:53.260)

Joe Rogan, and then the first time I see him,

Lex Fridman (2:11:55.940)

he's like, ah, you motherfucking big ass hug.

Lex Fridman (2:11:59.420)

And it felt so good.

Lex Fridman (2:12:00.260)

But people probably looked horrified.

Niels Jorgensen (2:12:02.140)

They're hugging.

Lex Fridman (2:12:02.980)

It was just him.

Niels Jorgensen (2:12:04.500)

Oh, okay, I know what I'm saying,

Lex Fridman (2:12:05.340)

but if you do it in public now,

Niels Jorgensen (2:12:06.500)

it's like you committed.

Lex Fridman (2:12:07.820)

But that expression, because I was so,

Niels Jorgensen (2:12:10.140)

you forget how powerful that is.

Lex Fridman (2:12:14.100)

Oh, I got some of my buddies.

Niels Jorgensen (2:12:15.340)

I give them a huge hug and a big sloppy kiss on their cheek

Lex Fridman (2:12:19.620)

and I, cause I love them.

Lex Fridman (2:12:21.260)

They, these are my brothers, you know?

Lex Fridman (2:12:23.140)

But on this set, I swear to God, it got to the point

Lex Fridman (2:12:27.140)

and I'm not trying to whatever,

Lex Fridman (2:12:28.100)

but there was people that would come up to me

Niels Jorgensen (2:12:30.140)

for the daily hug.

Lex Fridman (2:12:31.740)

And I said, what are you doing?

Lex Fridman (2:12:33.940)

And they said, come on, bring it in.

Lex Fridman (2:12:35.140)

And I give them the hug and they said, you don't understand.

Niels Jorgensen (2:12:37.140)

It just makes me feel so good.

Lex Fridman (2:12:39.140)

It makes me feel like you give a crap about me.

Niels Jorgensen (2:12:41.100)

I said, I really do.

Lex Fridman (2:12:42.380)

I said, but it touched my heart

Niels Jorgensen (2:12:44.380)

that people were seeking me out

Lex Fridman (2:12:46.500)

to get that hug to start the day.

Lex Fridman (2:12:48.540)

And I remember there was a guy in Manhattan,

Lex Fridman (2:12:50.060)

he was selling hugs for like 50 cents

Lex Fridman (2:12:51.900)

and I think he got arrested, right?

Lex Fridman (2:12:53.020)

It was just before COVID.

Lex Fridman (2:12:54.340)

But like, I wouldn't sell them if, but now.

Lex Fridman (2:12:56.740)

You've given them away for free.

Niels Jorgensen (2:12:57.580)

Well, now I got leukemia.

Lex Fridman (2:12:58.420)

I'd be kind of concerned to get into COVID.

Niels Jorgensen (2:13:00.100)

I mean, but like, I really think we need that.

Lex Fridman (2:13:03.540)

We need hugging booths, like in each city or each town.

Niels Jorgensen (2:13:06.500)

Like, because there's so many people

Lex Fridman (2:13:08.860)

that just want to know someone gives a shit about them.

Lex Fridman (2:13:11.420)

And that's the problem.

Lex Fridman (2:13:12.260)

It's like, like, you know,

Niels Jorgensen (2:13:14.660)

that's what I love about small little towns

Lex Fridman (2:13:17.220)

like where I am now in Tennessee.

Lex Fridman (2:13:19.620)

And I'm not knocking New York.

Lex Fridman (2:13:20.940)

I'm not knocking big towns,

Lex Fridman (2:13:21.900)

but I guess it's easier to do in a smaller area

Lex Fridman (2:13:23.900)

because it's just not this mass of humanity.

Lex Fridman (2:13:26.940)

But they'll stop and check on you.

Lex Fridman (2:13:29.020)

Like you're out in the road and you know,

Niels Jorgensen (2:13:30.620)

like I'm cutting and cleaning or whatever.

Lex Fridman (2:13:32.660)

Occasionally I'll roll a lawnmower or a tractor

Niels Jorgensen (2:13:34.740)

into a ditch cause I'm not a farmer, too good.

Lex Fridman (2:13:37.540)

But it's easier to drive a fire truck in New York.

Lex Fridman (2:13:40.780)

But they literally, oh, I was worried.

Lex Fridman (2:13:42.940)

I haven't seen you.

Lex Fridman (2:13:43.780)

And I'm like, no, no, I'm okay.

Lex Fridman (2:13:45.100)

But they literally like check on you.

Niels Jorgensen (2:13:46.860)

They're worried about you.

Lex Fridman (2:13:47.860)

And I'm going, these people hardly know me,

Lex Fridman (2:13:50.420)

but yet they're so caring.

Lex Fridman (2:13:52.940)

And that's the problem.

Niels Jorgensen (2:13:54.540)

Like this is what I love about my life.

Lex Fridman (2:13:57.980)

I spent a lot of time as, especially as a young boy

Lex Fridman (2:14:00.460)

and a lot of time in Ireland at my grandma's farm.

Lex Fridman (2:14:04.700)

And my mom comes from this tiny, tiny little village.

Niels Jorgensen (2:14:08.220)

She's out in the middle of nowhere.

Lex Fridman (2:14:09.700)

And the childhood home she grew up in still,

Niels Jorgensen (2:14:12.700)

my aunt and uncle live in it still.

Lex Fridman (2:14:15.260)

I just love it there so much.

Niels Jorgensen (2:14:16.660)

Cause everyone waves.

Lex Fridman (2:14:17.700)

Tennessee's similar.

Niels Jorgensen (2:14:19.300)

They wave, driving by and you're like,

Lex Fridman (2:14:21.140)

who the hell's that?

Niels Jorgensen (2:14:21.980)

I just wave, you know.

Lex Fridman (2:14:23.060)

But my cousin will point it out.

Niels Jorgensen (2:14:24.260)

Actually third cousin, second removed by, you know, Johnny.

Lex Fridman (2:14:27.020)

Like, holy shoot, I'm related to everyone here, right?

Lex Fridman (2:14:29.860)

But like everyone stops to say hello and how are you?

Lex Fridman (2:14:34.020)

And I have a problem doing that because my wife goes,

Niels Jorgensen (2:14:36.700)

people think you're crazy.

Lex Fridman (2:14:37.780)

Why are you talking to everybody?

Niels Jorgensen (2:14:38.940)

I said, like, I'll literally stop someone and say,

Lex Fridman (2:14:42.180)

how's your day going?

Niels Jorgensen (2:14:43.020)

Like, I mean, I'll randomly on the sidewalk.

Lex Fridman (2:14:45.020)

Then it looks a little nuts.

Lex Fridman (2:14:45.900)

But like, if I'm buying a cup of coffee.

Lex Fridman (2:14:48.220)

Oh, that happens here in Austin all the time.

Niels Jorgensen (2:14:50.180)

That's why I love it here on the sidewalk randomly.

Lex Fridman (2:14:53.220)

Yeah, no, it's just so nice.

Niels Jorgensen (2:14:54.780)

They'll say hi to me.

Lex Fridman (2:14:55.820)

I thought they recognized me or something.

Niels Jorgensen (2:14:57.300)

I don't give a shit who you are.

Lex Fridman (2:14:58.420)

They're just being nice.

Niels Jorgensen (2:14:59.660)

I was on the road coming back,

Lex Fridman (2:15:03.180)

driving from my family up north down to Tennessee last week.

Niels Jorgensen (2:15:08.420)

I stopped in a bathroom and it was closed.

Lex Fridman (2:15:13.300)

The girl was cleaning it, whatever.

Niels Jorgensen (2:15:15.300)

She's working so hard, whatever.

Lex Fridman (2:15:16.700)

And she goes, sir, she goes,

Niels Jorgensen (2:15:17.540)

if you go down the hall, there's a family restroom.

Lex Fridman (2:15:19.260)

Feel free to use it.

Niels Jorgensen (2:15:20.180)

You know, she didn't have to do that.

Lex Fridman (2:15:22.260)

And I went down and I'm old.

Lex Fridman (2:15:24.020)

You need a bathroom, you need a bathroom, right?

Lex Fridman (2:15:27.380)

And I walked back out and I said, ma'm,

Niels Jorgensen (2:15:30.740)

I said, I want to thank you for being here today.

Lex Fridman (2:15:32.220)

I says, the bathroom was immaculate.

Niels Jorgensen (2:15:33.900)

It was, it was like my army bathroom in the barracks.

Lex Fridman (2:15:37.100)

It was spotless, right?

Lex Fridman (2:15:39.700)

And I gave her $10.

Lex Fridman (2:15:41.260)

I said, I'd really like you to buy lunch with me today.

Niels Jorgensen (2:15:43.140)

I said, you really didn't have to do me that favor.

Lex Fridman (2:15:45.740)

And she goes, no, sir.

Niels Jorgensen (2:15:46.580)

I said, no, no.

Lex Fridman (2:15:47.620)

I said, I want.

Lex Fridman (2:15:48.700)

And it was like I gave her a million bucks.

Lex Fridman (2:15:50.860)

And I say to my wife now,

Niels Jorgensen (2:15:52.900)

I've been praying to be a billionaire.

Lex Fridman (2:15:54.740)

She goes, that's a sin.

Lex Fridman (2:15:55.620)

I said, no, no, you don't understand, right?

Lex Fridman (2:15:57.460)

She goes, oh, you're Mr., you know, Mr. God.

Niels Jorgensen (2:16:00.140)

I said, no, no, no.

Lex Fridman (2:16:00.980)

I said, you're getting it wrong.

Niels Jorgensen (2:16:01.820)

I said, I'm praying to be like a multi gazillionaire

Lex Fridman (2:16:04.900)

because I want to give it all away.

Niels Jorgensen (2:16:07.060)

We used to have a sign in ladder 114

Lex Fridman (2:16:09.340)

until some other rival truck company stole it, right?

Niels Jorgensen (2:16:11.780)

Cause that's what we do.

Lex Fridman (2:16:12.620)

You know, they get sent to cover your district

Niels Jorgensen (2:16:14.660)

when you're at a fire and now your stuff's missing.

Lex Fridman (2:16:17.380)

And the old timers had a sign that says, I am content.

Niels Jorgensen (2:16:20.940)

Because if you got to ladder 114,

Lex Fridman (2:16:23.620)

that was considered such a great place,

Niels Jorgensen (2:16:25.860)

such a great assignment, such great guys.

Lex Fridman (2:16:28.860)

You had to be vetted to get there.

Niels Jorgensen (2:16:30.300)

You couldn't just randomly go.

Lex Fridman (2:16:31.700)

And it was a little exclusionary, but they wanted good guys.

Lex Fridman (2:16:36.220)

And I said to myself, that's who I am in life right now.

Lex Fridman (2:16:38.660)

I am content, but I'm restless

Niels Jorgensen (2:16:42.620)

because I want to really do a lot more good.

Lex Fridman (2:16:44.980)

It's like this podcast.

Niels Jorgensen (2:16:46.820)

I want to make sure that it's not forgotten.

Lex Fridman (2:16:50.060)

And I want to make sure that these charities

Niels Jorgensen (2:16:52.060)

that are really, really helping people get recognized.

Lex Fridman (2:16:55.700)

But I'd like to take it a step further, right?

Niels Jorgensen (2:16:57.660)

A friend of mine runs this foundation

Lex Fridman (2:17:00.220)

for young folks suffering mental illness and in crisis.

Niels Jorgensen (2:17:06.300)

It's for someone that we love dearly.

Lex Fridman (2:17:08.460)

And he's on a mission now to get therapy dogs

Lex Fridman (2:17:14.500)

for really, really mentally wounded warriors, right?

Lex Fridman (2:17:18.660)

A lot of these young soldiers are having a really hard time.

Lex Fridman (2:17:23.260)

And now they could be out a while.

Lex Fridman (2:17:25.460)

They may have come back in country two, three years ago.

Niels Jorgensen (2:17:28.940)

Now it's just starting to set in.

Lex Fridman (2:17:31.540)

And there's a waiting list for thousands of therapy dogs.

Lex Fridman (2:17:34.820)

And he said that they can't get enough of them quick enough.

Lex Fridman (2:17:39.460)

But he said, when you see the response,

Niels Jorgensen (2:17:42.060)

the way these veterans just light up

Lex Fridman (2:17:45.260)

when they get these dogs,

Niels Jorgensen (2:17:46.300)

it just changes their life radically, immediately.

Lex Fridman (2:17:50.180)

And I said, that's it.

Niels Jorgensen (2:17:51.860)

God, I don't know how I'm going to do it,

Lex Fridman (2:17:54.860)

but I want to be a gazillionaire.

Lex Fridman (2:17:57.060)

And I don't want any picture, photo ops, this, that.

Lex Fridman (2:18:00.820)

I just want to go, there's a dog, there's a dog,

Niels Jorgensen (2:18:02.740)

there's a dog, there's a dog.

Lex Fridman (2:18:03.940)

And then I want to build veterans land

Niels Jorgensen (2:18:05.980)

for these vets who just need a nice clean place to live.

Lex Fridman (2:18:10.020)

So why don't we take these old army bases

Lex Fridman (2:18:12.180)

and Marine bases and Navy bases that have been shut down.

Lex Fridman (2:18:15.980)

They're just sitting there rotting away.

Niels Jorgensen (2:18:17.900)

I was in the army in Alabama.

Lex Fridman (2:18:19.900)

My old Fort McClellan is three quarters vacant.

Niels Jorgensen (2:18:23.420)

It's sitting there.

Lex Fridman (2:18:24.260)

They just did a documentary on it.

Niels Jorgensen (2:18:25.340)

It just looks like zombie land going back to zombies.

Lex Fridman (2:18:27.900)

So why don't we take that and renovate it

Lex Fridman (2:18:30.740)

and say to vets who are struggling,

Lex Fridman (2:18:33.020)

hey guys, you're going to live here.

Lex Fridman (2:18:35.300)

And they take the old army,

Lex Fridman (2:18:39.660)

the places where they had all the supplies,

Niels Jorgensen (2:18:41.980)

there's massive buildings where you could just retrofit it

Lex Fridman (2:18:44.860)

and make light manufacturing within two weeks.

Niels Jorgensen (2:18:48.580)

Give these guys jobs.

Lex Fridman (2:18:49.700)

There they live, there they work.

Niels Jorgensen (2:18:51.060)

They'll take care of it.

Lex Fridman (2:18:52.220)

Military guys, they teach you how to take care of stuff.

Lex Fridman (2:18:55.620)

How the hell in this country should any vet

Lex Fridman (2:18:58.220)

come back home and be homeless?

Niels Jorgensen (2:19:00.660)

Because now they have to dedicate their lives

Lex Fridman (2:19:03.220)

for six, seven, 10, 12 years,

Niels Jorgensen (2:19:05.140)

five, six deployments making $7.50 an hour.

Lex Fridman (2:19:09.540)

And then they spend seven years

Niels Jorgensen (2:19:10.940)

or they get a whopping $16 an hour.

Lex Fridman (2:19:13.540)

They walk out making 35 grand.

Lex Fridman (2:19:16.580)

And now no one gives them a job.

Lex Fridman (2:19:18.820)

No one gives them a chance.

Lex Fridman (2:19:20.260)

So very quickly they end up homeless

Lex Fridman (2:19:23.380)

by no fault of their own.

Lex Fridman (2:19:25.940)

And I don't know how that's even possible.

Lex Fridman (2:19:28.980)

The people in this country who've given the very most

Lex Fridman (2:19:32.980)

and they're struggling, they're hurting.

Lex Fridman (2:19:35.260)

That's not fair.

Lex Fridman (2:19:36.100)

And my whole thing is if I can have this dream

Lex Fridman (2:19:39.460)

of succeeding, so to speak, I want to try to change it.

Lex Fridman (2:19:45.940)

So that's why I'm praying to be a billionaire.

Lex Fridman (2:19:48.460)

My Irish mother probably wouldn't agree either

Lex Fridman (2:19:52.500)

because you're not supposed to, right?

Lex Fridman (2:19:53.980)

Well, I'm the same with you.

Niels Jorgensen (2:19:56.420)

The more money you have, the more you're able to help.

Lex Fridman (2:19:59.300)

Yeah, you can put smiles on people's faces.

Niels Jorgensen (2:20:02.860)

I have to ask you, the US invaded Afghanistan

Lex Fridman (2:20:07.100)

in October, 2001 in response to terror attacks.

Niels Jorgensen (2:20:11.420)

Now 20 years later, we still had a presence

Lex Fridman (2:20:14.140)

and abruptly withdrew all troops.

Lex Fridman (2:20:17.340)

What do you think about this war across the world

Lex Fridman (2:20:20.460)

that was sparked by this tragedy?

Niels Jorgensen (2:20:23.380)

Whenever you do something quickly without thinking it out,

Lex Fridman (2:20:26.900)

thinking it through and planning, it doesn't succeed.

Niels Jorgensen (2:20:31.500)

I understand that we needed to exit.

Lex Fridman (2:20:34.140)

I mean, how long were you gonna stay over there?

Lex Fridman (2:20:36.860)

And we've lost over 7,000 of our young souls over there.

Lex Fridman (2:20:43.100)

For sometimes people, I don't know if they're grateful

Lex Fridman (2:20:45.100)

for it or not, right?

Lex Fridman (2:20:46.220)

I mean, I don't know.

Lex Fridman (2:20:48.660)

So there's the other element, and sorry to interrupt.

Lex Fridman (2:20:51.620)

One is the financial of $6 trillion

Lex Fridman (2:20:55.220)

and that money is not just money, it's education,

Lex Fridman (2:20:59.460)

it's everything, it's money that could have gone towards,

Niels Jorgensen (2:21:03.860)

first of all, the first responders,

Lex Fridman (2:21:05.580)

but all the servicemen and women of all kinds

Niels Jorgensen (2:21:08.780)

throughout this country.

Lex Fridman (2:21:10.060)

And then there's the other side,

Niels Jorgensen (2:21:12.020)

which is the over 800,000 people who died

Lex Fridman (2:21:15.260)

in direct result of this conflict.

Lex Fridman (2:21:18.420)

So not just the American side of the troops,

Lex Fridman (2:21:21.260)

but just people who died, those humans.

Lex Fridman (2:21:24.180)

And those humans, many of them civilians,

Lex Fridman (2:21:30.980)

that's spreading hate, especially if you have leaders

Niels Jorgensen (2:21:34.980)

on the other side who frame the death of those civilians

Lex Fridman (2:21:38.500)

in certain ways that just spreads hate throughout the world.

Lex Fridman (2:21:41.780)

And so you think about this kind of 20 year saga

Lex Fridman (2:21:46.220)

and think, what are the ways that money could be spent better

Lex Fridman (2:21:51.420)

and what was the way that we could have spread more love

Lex Fridman (2:21:55.020)

in the world versus hate?

Lex Fridman (2:21:56.780)

And you wonder, but then the other side, what is it?

Lex Fridman (2:22:01.300)

I'm not sure who says this line,

Lex Fridman (2:22:04.780)

but it's something like we sleep at night

Lex Fridman (2:22:08.620)

because there's a rough men out there

Niels Jorgensen (2:22:11.460)

ready to fight for you.

Lex Fridman (2:22:15.100)

There is some sense in which we have to make sure

Lex Fridman (2:22:18.260)

that there's strength coupled with the love, right?

Lex Fridman (2:22:21.180)

Otherwise evil men will do evil onto the world.

Lex Fridman (2:22:27.840)

So it's a very difficult decision,

Lex Fridman (2:22:29.580)

but then you look at the final picture

Lex Fridman (2:22:31.980)

and it's like, what have we gotten for this $6 trillion?

Lex Fridman (2:22:35.340)

What have we gotten for this 20 years?

Niels Jorgensen (2:22:37.700)

The thousands of American soldiers who died,

Lex Fridman (2:22:41.220)

the hundreds of thousands of civilians who have died.

Niels Jorgensen (2:22:49.300)

You know, it's a troubling subject for me.

Lex Fridman (2:22:53.620)

I'm a patriot, I love this country.

Niels Jorgensen (2:22:55.700)

I love it with my soul.

Lex Fridman (2:22:58.180)

And I was just about to head over to the first Iraqi war

Lex Fridman (2:23:02.900)

and we went out for desert warfare training

Lex Fridman (2:23:04.820)

and then it ended.

Niels Jorgensen (2:23:06.220)

I was at that time a combat medic assigned

Lex Fridman (2:23:08.500)

to an armored cav unit.

Lex Fridman (2:23:09.660)

So basically tanks driving around

Lex Fridman (2:23:11.940)

an armored personnel carrier and when it gets hit,

Niels Jorgensen (2:23:14.100)

then you tend to that guy, try to save his life.

Lex Fridman (2:23:18.500)

I didn't wanna go.

Niels Jorgensen (2:23:19.780)

I may sound like a coward, I did not wanna go to war.

Lex Fridman (2:23:23.500)

I would have went willingly if I was sent

Niels Jorgensen (2:23:26.860)

to defend my country, I took my oath.

Lex Fridman (2:23:30.060)

I didn't join the military to kill,

Lex Fridman (2:23:32.940)

but if necessary, I would.

Lex Fridman (2:23:36.440)

I'll use the analogy of cancer.

Niels Jorgensen (2:23:38.960)

If you have a cancer and you're aware of its presence

Lex Fridman (2:23:42.220)

and you don't annihilate those cells

Lex Fridman (2:23:45.000)

and take them out quickly, it's gonna spread

Lex Fridman (2:23:48.740)

and it's gonna kill you.

Niels Jorgensen (2:23:51.540)

Those evil bastards that flew those airplanes,

Lex Fridman (2:23:55.500)

one of those airplanes had a little three year old child

Niels Jorgensen (2:23:57.580)

in it from Ireland where my mom's hometown.

Lex Fridman (2:24:01.140)

A friend of mine who since died of a heart attack

Niels Jorgensen (2:24:03.100)

from 9 11 toxins, he found her shoe

Lex Fridman (2:24:05.820)

with human remains in it.

Lex Fridman (2:24:08.500)

And he thought someone was messing with us

Lex Fridman (2:24:09.940)

because we didn't know there was any kids in the building.

Niels Jorgensen (2:24:12.180)

He says, boss, there's a baby shoe

Lex Fridman (2:24:15.060)

and it looks like there's something in it,

Lex Fridman (2:24:16.980)

but there's no kids in the trade center.

Lex Fridman (2:24:18.340)

I went, the plane, it's a little girl shoe.

Niels Jorgensen (2:24:21.860)

I can never get that shoe out of my mind.

Lex Fridman (2:24:26.480)

The evil bastards who perpetrated that

Niels Jorgensen (2:24:28.720)

needed to have missiles strike and rain down upon them

Lex Fridman (2:24:32.240)

and annihilate them like a cancer that they are.

Lex Fridman (2:24:35.080)

What just fascinates me is they'll show videos

Lex Fridman (2:24:38.440)

of these guys flying around and pick up trucks

Niels Jorgensen (2:24:40.720)

with 50 cows on the back.

Lex Fridman (2:24:41.960)

It's like, well, wait a minute.

Niels Jorgensen (2:24:43.280)

If a camera crew can get this footage,

Lex Fridman (2:24:45.800)

you think all these freaking drones and planes

Lex Fridman (2:24:48.960)

and radar assisted systems can't just go

Lex Fridman (2:24:52.360)

whist, whist, whist, goodnight, you're gone.

Lex Fridman (2:24:56.320)

So kill the cancer, kill the cells, get rid of it,

Lex Fridman (2:25:00.280)

get rid of it quickly and go into remission.

Niels Jorgensen (2:25:03.760)

Like an undeniable show of force that sends a message

Lex Fridman (2:25:08.120)

that gets rid of most of the obvious centers of terrorism.

Lex Fridman (2:25:15.560)

And that note, that's though,

Lex Fridman (2:25:17.160)

because we offline mentioned a discussion with Jaco

Lex Fridman (2:25:20.040)

and maybe romanticize view and mentioning brothers in arms

Lex Fridman (2:25:25.640)

by dire straits and saying we're all brothers in arms

Niels Jorgensen (2:25:29.800)

even when it's on the opposite side of fighting,

Lex Fridman (2:25:32.380)

which is more of a vision and growing up in the Soviet Union

Niels Jorgensen (2:25:35.720)

you saw about World War II, that it's all just kids

Lex Fridman (2:25:39.520)

thrown into the kids sent to die in all sides.

Lex Fridman (2:25:43.200)

But then presenting that to Jaco who was in Iraq,

Lex Fridman (2:25:51.040)

he did not see as brothers in arms,

Niels Jorgensen (2:25:55.240)

which is his basic statement is there's evil people

Lex Fridman (2:26:00.740)

and some people don't deserve the compassion.

Niels Jorgensen (2:26:03.880)

You give them a few chances,

Lex Fridman (2:26:05.240)

they don't take the chances they have to go

Niels Jorgensen (2:26:07.480)

because they're spreading evil onto the world.

Lex Fridman (2:26:09.880)

And so it's not, we're not, all of us deserve a chance.

Niels Jorgensen (2:26:14.280)

Oh no, absolutely, but the difference though,

Lex Fridman (2:26:16.800)

and believe me, I, Jaco, I am from a way, way minor league

Lex Fridman (2:26:21.880)

compared to him, right?

Lex Fridman (2:26:22.860)

I mean, this man was right there in the firing line,

Lex Fridman (2:26:25.400)

but I can understand his analogy

Lex Fridman (2:26:28.080)

because when you think about it, right,

Niels Jorgensen (2:26:29.200)

those young conscripts back in Germany and Russia

Lex Fridman (2:26:31.840)

and all the countries where they were being drafted,

Niels Jorgensen (2:26:34.040)

even our guys were being drafted and thrown into this.

Lex Fridman (2:26:37.320)

They were gallantly and bravely defending their country.

Niels Jorgensen (2:26:43.640)

Now, I'm sure the young Germans felt,

Lex Fridman (2:26:47.060)

well, hey, Hitler must be right, right?

Lex Fridman (2:26:49.500)

And young Russians felt, hey, Stalin must be right.

Lex Fridman (2:26:51.840)

And the young Americans figured,

Niels Jorgensen (2:26:54.640)

hey, President Roosevelt must be right.

Lex Fridman (2:26:57.200)

So they were romantically in a sense

Niels Jorgensen (2:27:00.640)

defending the honor of their country, of their motherland.

Lex Fridman (2:27:04.500)

The difference between those,

Lex Fridman (2:27:06.440)

so they did have that commonality.

Lex Fridman (2:27:08.120)

If you and I were firing across each other

Niels Jorgensen (2:27:10.540)

from France to Germany or, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:27:12.840)

from Germany to Russia or whatever,

Niels Jorgensen (2:27:14.820)

we're just these two kids who got thrown into this.

Lex Fridman (2:27:17.100)

We didn't freaking ask for this, right?

Lex Fridman (2:27:19.320)

But the difference with Jaco's enemy is

Lex Fridman (2:27:22.700)

no one was attacking their country over there, right?

Niels Jorgensen (2:27:26.480)

No one was taking their country over.

Lex Fridman (2:27:28.600)

Maybe in their mind, they didn't want people

Niels Jorgensen (2:27:31.000)

trying to build their government, this and that.

Lex Fridman (2:27:33.120)

I don't know, I don't know enough about the history there

Niels Jorgensen (2:27:35.480)

to really elaborate.

Lex Fridman (2:27:38.680)

We didn't attack them.

Lex Fridman (2:27:41.600)

And if a soldier attacks a soldier,

Lex Fridman (2:27:44.240)

that's an understood concept amongst warriors.

Lex Fridman (2:27:47.360)

But when a soldier attacks a civilian,

Lex Fridman (2:27:49.680)

now you're after a different beast,

Lex Fridman (2:27:51.960)

and you've written that beast off, if that makes any sense.

Lex Fridman (2:27:54.720)

Yeah, and the enemy, I mean, as Jaco explains,

Niels Jorgensen (2:27:59.280)

the enemy in Iraq and just certain parts of the Middle East

Lex Fridman (2:28:03.940)

is essentially terrorists who don't value the lives

Niels Jorgensen (2:28:10.000)

of the civilians of their own country.

Lex Fridman (2:28:11.800)

They don't.

Lex Fridman (2:28:12.640)

And so it becomes like this weird guerrilla warfare

Lex Fridman (2:28:15.480)

slash game of violence that ultimately allows them

Niels Jorgensen (2:28:20.160)

to gain more power within their country,

Lex Fridman (2:28:22.340)

but they don't care if they're playing

Niels Jorgensen (2:28:24.740)

with civilian lives as pawns.

Lex Fridman (2:28:26.920)

If you have a child who dies

Niels Jorgensen (2:28:31.040)

that's a civilian in their country,

Lex Fridman (2:28:33.840)

that could be seen as a positive for them

Niels Jorgensen (2:28:35.720)

because they can use that to leverage

Lex Fridman (2:28:37.440)

for more and more power within that country.

Lex Fridman (2:28:40.920)

So when you're fighting an enemy like that,

Lex Fridman (2:28:44.100)

that's a vicious, that's an evil enemy.

Niels Jorgensen (2:28:46.200)

Absolutely.

Lex Fridman (2:28:47.100)

It's like snakes are beautiful,

Lex Fridman (2:28:48.840)

but if you go pet a rattler,

Lex Fridman (2:28:50.400)

you're getting bit and you're getting dead, right?

Lex Fridman (2:28:52.700)

And that's with terrorists,

Lex Fridman (2:28:53.880)

you've got to cut the head of the snake off.

Lex Fridman (2:28:55.880)

And I feel, no, don't commit our guys to be there anymore.

Lex Fridman (2:28:59.280)

But what we need to do is go with tech warfare.

Niels Jorgensen (2:29:01.800)

If we have intel from drones or planes or whatever it is

Lex Fridman (2:29:05.140)

that so and so and so and so and so and so

Niels Jorgensen (2:29:07.480)

are driving down in that pickup or whatever,

Lex Fridman (2:29:09.560)

take it out and do it again tomorrow

Lex Fridman (2:29:11.840)

and tomorrow and tomorrow.

Lex Fridman (2:29:12.760)

And maybe they'll get the message after a while,

Niels Jorgensen (2:29:15.680)

oh shit, these guys aren't messing around.

Lex Fridman (2:29:17.960)

Instead of throwing wave after wave of our brave warriors,

Niels Jorgensen (2:29:21.160)

brave SEALs, brave special ops guys,

Lex Fridman (2:29:24.780)

and God bless them for what they do, I couldn't do it.

Niels Jorgensen (2:29:27.840)

I could not have done it.

Lex Fridman (2:29:29.340)

But they have to be now sitting home going,

Lex Fridman (2:29:34.520)

what the hell?

Lex Fridman (2:29:36.440)

My friends, my body, myself,

Niels Jorgensen (2:29:38.960)

like they must feel so betrayed

Lex Fridman (2:29:41.420)

because they passionately went over there

Niels Jorgensen (2:29:43.960)

to cure a cancer, the cancer of terrorism.

Lex Fridman (2:29:48.040)

And now the cancer is back.

Lex Fridman (2:29:50.680)

And I hate to say it,

Lex Fridman (2:29:51.600)

but I think the cancer might start running wild.

Niels Jorgensen (2:29:54.320)

We need to change our tactics up.

Lex Fridman (2:29:55.840)

This is just my opinion.

Niels Jorgensen (2:29:57.040)

I can't see committing all of our guys

Lex Fridman (2:30:00.440)

to a continuous eternal war.

Lex Fridman (2:30:04.240)

But I think what we need to do is hit surgically

Lex Fridman (2:30:07.180)

and hit hard at that cancer that is over there.

Niels Jorgensen (2:30:11.200)

We are never gonna rebuild that region.

Lex Fridman (2:30:14.200)

It's just, it's thousands of years of traditions

Niels Jorgensen (2:30:17.280)

that you're not going to change.

Lex Fridman (2:30:18.760)

It's just some people are unchangeable

Niels Jorgensen (2:30:22.120)

because they don't want to.

Lex Fridman (2:30:23.520)

And we have so many social problems here in our country,

Niels Jorgensen (2:30:27.840)

I think that we need to fix first.

Lex Fridman (2:30:31.400)

I heard this spoken in the past by many people.

Niels Jorgensen (2:30:33.960)

It's like the garden theory.

Lex Fridman (2:30:35.720)

You have your garden with a fence around it.

Niels Jorgensen (2:30:37.920)

You tend to your garden.

Lex Fridman (2:30:39.200)

There may be weeds on the outside of the fence,

Lex Fridman (2:30:41.320)

but as long as they're not inside your garden,

Lex Fridman (2:30:43.800)

your garden will prosper.

Lex Fridman (2:30:45.720)

And I know some people don't agree to that America first

Lex Fridman (2:30:49.640)

and the whole take care of our own,

Lex Fridman (2:30:52.240)

but it's like, how are we gonna take in more people now?

Lex Fridman (2:30:56.960)

And I have a human feeling for them,

Lex Fridman (2:31:01.320)

but it's almost like the lifeboat theory.

Lex Fridman (2:31:03.520)

How many people can we take into the lifeboat

Lex Fridman (2:31:05.840)

before the lifeboat itself sinks as the ship is going down?

Lex Fridman (2:31:10.140)

So if we can't take care of our own homeless vets

Lex Fridman (2:31:13.680)

and our own homeless people,

Lex Fridman (2:31:15.800)

and it's just gonna become worse.

Lex Fridman (2:31:20.040)

And it doesn't make any sense.

Lex Fridman (2:31:21.840)

It's just like, we need to just take a timeout

Lex Fridman (2:31:25.200)

and I think switch our tactics a little bit.

Lex Fridman (2:31:29.840)

And invest into helping people here at home.

Niels Jorgensen (2:31:33.320)

Absolutely, absolutely.

Lex Fridman (2:31:35.520)

There's very few as obvious of cases

Niels Jorgensen (2:31:38.880)

as the first responders in 9 11.

Lex Fridman (2:31:42.400)

That one of the things that I really wanna kind of talk about

Niels Jorgensen (2:31:47.560)

at least a little bit,

Lex Fridman (2:31:48.720)

we've already talked about the amazing project

Niels Jorgensen (2:31:51.320)

that you're doing the 20 for 20 podcast that you host.

Lex Fridman (2:31:56.640)

We mentioned one story, Steven Siller,

Niels Jorgensen (2:31:59.340)

is there other stories

Lex Fridman (2:32:00.920)

or maybe you can speak out at a high level,

Lex Fridman (2:32:02.800)

what are you hoping to tell?

Lex Fridman (2:32:04.520)

And all these different stories that are weaved

Niels Jorgensen (2:32:07.160)

about that connect the tragedies and the triumphs,

Lex Fridman (2:32:14.280)

the heroism of that day

Lex Fridman (2:32:16.800)

and the days and the years that followed.

Lex Fridman (2:32:19.400)

You know, Lex, it seems like the common few themes,

Niels Jorgensen (2:32:22.160)

the common threads are being selfless,

Lex Fridman (2:32:26.940)

helping out others even though they might be a stranger,

Niels Jorgensen (2:32:31.280)

in acts of kindness, acts of love,

Lex Fridman (2:32:34.520)

and it seems to all be weaved together with faith.

Niels Jorgensen (2:32:37.380)

They all seem to have some sort of faith.

Lex Fridman (2:32:39.920)

I mean, we have one gentleman, Mark Hanna,

Lex Fridman (2:32:44.080)

and he's a Coptic Egyptian priest,

Lex Fridman (2:32:47.240)

and he's an immigrant to the United States.

Niels Jorgensen (2:32:49.320)

He was a port authority building engineer.

Lex Fridman (2:32:51.720)

And with his crew who subsequently passed away,

Niels Jorgensen (2:32:56.060)

the crew did, he was effectively rescuing dozens of people

Lex Fridman (2:33:00.000)

on the upper floors,

Lex Fridman (2:33:01.520)

and his boss ordered him to assist an elderly gentleman

Lex Fridman (2:33:04.400)

who was 89 down 78 flights of stairs to get him out.

Lex Fridman (2:33:09.680)

And in stopping on the 21st floor,

Lex Fridman (2:33:12.440)

he figured they would just wait there for medics.

Niels Jorgensen (2:33:14.880)

He came across Captain Patty Brown of Ladder Company 3,

Lex Fridman (2:33:18.880)

who told him, no, sir, you need to evacuate.

Lex Fridman (2:33:21.800)

And Captain Brown picked his brain a little bit

Lex Fridman (2:33:23.940)

about the structure because he figured,

Niels Jorgensen (2:33:25.760)

found out he was an engineer.

Lex Fridman (2:33:27.880)

And Captain Patty Brown continued on to effect rescues,

Lex Fridman (2:33:30.920)

and he and his crew were killed.

Lex Fridman (2:33:32.920)

But father, he's now,

Niels Jorgensen (2:33:34.600)

Mark was able to effectively evacuate this gentleman.

Lex Fridman (2:33:38.880)

They were the two known last survivors

Niels Jorgensen (2:33:40.840)

to come out of the tower.

Lex Fridman (2:33:42.520)

He now has dedicated his life to becoming a Coptic priest

Niels Jorgensen (2:33:45.960)

in St. Mary's Church in East Brunswick, New Jersey.

Lex Fridman (2:33:49.520)

He did this for a total stranger.

Lex Fridman (2:33:51.240)

And he said he was inspired by his bosses who died

Lex Fridman (2:33:55.960)

and his friends.

Niels Jorgensen (2:33:58.080)

One of his best friends was an Italian man.

Lex Fridman (2:33:59.960)

The other man was a retired Navy SEAL, Hispanic man.

Lex Fridman (2:34:03.520)

And they were part of this melting pot.

Lex Fridman (2:34:05.540)

And no one looked at each other that day,

Lex Fridman (2:34:07.320)

what color, what race, what belief are you?

Lex Fridman (2:34:09.280)

They just said, hey, you're a human in need, let's go.

Lex Fridman (2:34:12.460)

And we have the story about John Field

Lex Fridman (2:34:16.360)

on his mission to help the responders.

Niels Jorgensen (2:34:19.680)

We have a young lady, Mariah,

Lex Fridman (2:34:21.000)

whose birth father was on flight 93.

Niels Jorgensen (2:34:24.460)

She had not even met him.

Lex Fridman (2:34:26.160)

And she had this premonition that somebody in her family

Niels Jorgensen (2:34:28.760)

was killed that day.

Lex Fridman (2:34:29.680)

And her adopted mom said, no, everyone's fine.

Niels Jorgensen (2:34:33.680)

Three years later, when she was legally able

Lex Fridman (2:34:35.920)

to find out who her dad was,

Niels Jorgensen (2:34:37.320)

she found out that her dad, Tom, was actually on that plane

Lex Fridman (2:34:40.600)

as part of the Let's Roll team.

Lex Fridman (2:34:43.040)

And we have a gentleman, Robert Burke,

Lex Fridman (2:34:46.280)

who's an actor, sweetheart of a man.

Niels Jorgensen (2:34:49.480)

He's a gentleman and he's a very, very popular actor

Lex Fridman (2:34:52.880)

in Hollywood.

Niels Jorgensen (2:34:53.720)

He was on Rescue Me, Blue Bloods, Gossip Girls.

Lex Fridman (2:34:56.080)

And Bobby, my friend, as I call him,

Niels Jorgensen (2:34:58.800)

is a volunteer fireman now.

Lex Fridman (2:35:01.360)

This man doesn't need to get out of bed

Niels Jorgensen (2:35:02.800)

at two oclock in the morning and help people with a stroke

Lex Fridman (2:35:05.320)

or a burning garage or a burning house,

Lex Fridman (2:35:07.240)

but he does because he wants to.

Lex Fridman (2:35:09.520)

Because his best friend was Captain Patty Brown.

Lex Fridman (2:35:12.160)

And his other best friend was Father Michael Judge,

Lex Fridman (2:35:14.520)

who was our chaplain, who was killed,

Niels Jorgensen (2:35:16.840)

literally blessing the victims at the site,

Lex Fridman (2:35:20.320)

had just given last rites to the firefighter

Niels Jorgensen (2:35:22.400)

I mentioned earlier, Danny, who was killed.

Lex Fridman (2:35:24.800)

And Father Judge was in the lobby of the building,

Niels Jorgensen (2:35:26.920)

giving a blessing, praying to God to please stop this.

Lex Fridman (2:35:30.280)

And he was struck by debris and he was killed.

Lex Fridman (2:35:33.440)

And Bobby goes on to elaborate about Father Judge's story.

Lex Fridman (2:35:37.560)

Father Judge used to walk the streets of New York City,

Niels Jorgensen (2:35:39.840)

helping AIDS patients just with whatever they needed.

Lex Fridman (2:35:42.680)

And he was a Franciscan friar.

Niels Jorgensen (2:35:45.000)

They wear sandals and a robe.

Lex Fridman (2:35:46.920)

They just live very humble lives.

Lex Fridman (2:35:50.800)

And it's just a common denominator is loving each other

Lex Fridman (2:35:56.040)

and helping each other,

Niels Jorgensen (2:35:57.400)

regardless of you know the person or not.

Lex Fridman (2:36:00.160)

And really, when you think about it,

Niels Jorgensen (2:36:01.920)

that's how America was made.

Lex Fridman (2:36:03.680)

We fought for independence.

Niels Jorgensen (2:36:06.040)

Stranger fought next to stranger and fought tyranny

Lex Fridman (2:36:11.960)

because they wanted freedom.

Niels Jorgensen (2:36:13.680)

They wanted to be able to live, love, pray and prosper.

Lex Fridman (2:36:20.520)

And they fought and died alongside of strangers.

Lex Fridman (2:36:22.720)

And it's sort of symbolic of what happened that day.

Lex Fridman (2:36:25.400)

And then strangers from around this great country

Niels Jorgensen (2:36:27.800)

just flocked in by the thousands to help.

Lex Fridman (2:36:31.640)

They didn't know who was in that pile, but they didn't care.

Niels Jorgensen (2:36:34.320)

That was another American.

Lex Fridman (2:36:36.400)

And what I ultimately am trying to do

Niels Jorgensen (2:36:38.600)

involved in this beautiful project

Lex Fridman (2:36:41.120)

is spread the message of doing the right thing.

Niels Jorgensen (2:36:46.280)

Look at these examples.

Lex Fridman (2:36:48.720)

These brave people who didn't have to,

Niels Jorgensen (2:36:51.680)

especially the civilians,

Lex Fridman (2:36:53.000)

they weren't paid to run back in there

Lex Fridman (2:36:55.120)

and help person after person.

Lex Fridman (2:36:56.840)

And they had no obligation.

Niels Jorgensen (2:36:59.080)

They could have just said,

Lex Fridman (2:36:59.920)

hey man, I'm out of here and just bolted.

Lex Fridman (2:37:02.080)

But they didn't.

Lex Fridman (2:37:05.120)

So we're just trying to say to people,

Niels Jorgensen (2:37:07.920)

let's bring back that unity and that feeling of 912.

Lex Fridman (2:37:11.640)

As strange as 912 of a day it was,

Niels Jorgensen (2:37:13.880)

it was so sad because it was the first dawn of the sun

Lex Fridman (2:37:18.800)

where we realized this wasn't a dream.

Niels Jorgensen (2:37:21.600)

This was real and it's not going away.

Lex Fridman (2:37:24.560)

But the beauty of it was there was thousands of people

Niels Jorgensen (2:37:27.240)

lined up along the West Side Highway

Lex Fridman (2:37:28.840)

with signs and American flags.

Lex Fridman (2:37:32.040)

And they were from every country

Lex Fridman (2:37:34.080)

and every race and every creed.

Lex Fridman (2:37:36.680)

And it didn't matter who they were,

Lex Fridman (2:37:38.720)

but they all shared one bond, love.

Lex Fridman (2:37:42.080)

And they were hugging and crying and thanking rescuers.

Lex Fridman (2:37:47.320)

And it brought the morale so high

Niels Jorgensen (2:37:51.080)

for a group of people that was so beaten down the day before.

Lex Fridman (2:37:55.400)

It just started lifting the morale

Lex Fridman (2:37:57.120)

and making us realize, you know what?

Lex Fridman (2:37:59.600)

People really do give a crap.

Niels Jorgensen (2:38:01.680)

They really do love each other.

Lex Fridman (2:38:04.120)

And now I'm gonna be honest with you,

Niels Jorgensen (2:38:05.600)

I've been doubting that a little bit lately.

Lex Fridman (2:38:08.240)

I still have these examples of it.

Niels Jorgensen (2:38:09.920)

You know, that lady who helped me last night with the phone

Lex Fridman (2:38:12.640)

and just, you know, I know there's these shining

Niels Jorgensen (2:38:15.120)

little examples, but sometimes I think,

Lex Fridman (2:38:18.200)

I don't know, are we running out of them?

Niels Jorgensen (2:38:20.520)

Well, I gotta give you some advice.

Lex Fridman (2:38:22.920)

So there's two words that were repeated often

Niels Jorgensen (2:38:27.080)

in the days and the years after 911, which is never forget.

Lex Fridman (2:38:30.720)

So might I remind you to never forget about 912.

Niels Jorgensen (2:38:36.120)

I mean, those words, you talked about that, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:38:39.080)

there's people, what is it, college freshmen, maybe.

Niels Jorgensen (2:38:43.200)

They weren't even born.

Lex Fridman (2:38:44.160)

They weren't even born.

Lex Fridman (2:38:45.160)

And there's people in the 20s that were too young

Lex Fridman (2:38:47.360)

to remember or to understand the events of that day.

Lex Fridman (2:38:51.080)

But I think what that day, as you're describing, means,

Lex Fridman (2:38:53.840)

it's not about a terrorist attack.

Niels Jorgensen (2:38:55.680)

It's about the unity that followed.

Lex Fridman (2:38:58.640)

It was tremendous, Lex.

Niels Jorgensen (2:38:59.880)

I never felt so proud.

Lex Fridman (2:39:01.160)

I was always proud of this country.

Niels Jorgensen (2:39:03.440)

You know, I remember my grandpa Nels used to walk by,

Lex Fridman (2:39:05.520)

I'd see a flag, I'd hear the Star Spangled Banner

Lex Fridman (2:39:07.600)

and he'd tear up and I'd say,

Lex Fridman (2:39:08.680)

Grant, why are you crying?

Niels Jorgensen (2:39:10.000)

He said, I'm not crying, it's the tears of joy.

Lex Fridman (2:39:12.720)

I love this country so much.

Lex Fridman (2:39:15.160)

And I just remember like feeling that way.

Lex Fridman (2:39:17.320)

I felt that way 910.

Niels Jorgensen (2:39:19.520)

I felt that way on 911, but then on 912,

Lex Fridman (2:39:22.560)

I was just so proud of just the people,

Niels Jorgensen (2:39:25.200)

the way they stepped up.

Lex Fridman (2:39:27.280)

And I just want to try to see if that can happen again.

Lex Fridman (2:39:29.840)

And I hope it's not necessary for us to have another tragedy

Lex Fridman (2:39:33.080)

to bring that about.

Niels Jorgensen (2:39:34.760)

Let's do that without the tragedy.

Lex Fridman (2:39:37.040)

Let's just stop and say, hey, you know what?

Niels Jorgensen (2:39:40.640)

Let me listen to what this guy has to say.

Lex Fridman (2:39:43.440)

And maybe he's, he probably won't convince me,

Lex Fridman (2:39:45.440)

but maybe I'll go, well, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:39:47.080)

I never thought of it that way.

Niels Jorgensen (2:39:49.000)

Stop the finger pointing, the bickering,

Lex Fridman (2:39:52.200)

the tantrums, the fighting.

Niels Jorgensen (2:39:54.560)

It's just not necessary.

Lex Fridman (2:39:55.760)

It gets you nowhere, right?

Niels Jorgensen (2:39:56.880)

It's like, you know, I was two years old

Lex Fridman (2:39:58.640)

and I'd stomp around because I wanted a cookie

Niels Jorgensen (2:40:00.400)

or a piece of candy.

Lex Fridman (2:40:01.280)

I still didn't get it, right?

Niels Jorgensen (2:40:03.000)

You know, turned blue in the face and whatever,

Lex Fridman (2:40:05.000)

got a little swat in the rear end,

Lex Fridman (2:40:06.160)

but it didn't get the candy.

Lex Fridman (2:40:07.920)

And that's what we got going on right now.

Niels Jorgensen (2:40:09.440)

Everybody's just stomping around, being a baby.

Lex Fridman (2:40:12.280)

Stop, just stop.

Niels Jorgensen (2:40:13.960)

We're really lucky.

Lex Fridman (2:40:14.800)

Look, the country's not perfect, right?

Niels Jorgensen (2:40:17.640)

You know, but it's damn good.

Lex Fridman (2:40:19.880)

It gives us all these opportunities, you know?

Niels Jorgensen (2:40:22.400)

Like I said, no one's rushing out the gates

Lex Fridman (2:40:24.120)

to get out of here.

Niels Jorgensen (2:40:25.040)

They're freaking, I got a cousin of mine.

Lex Fridman (2:40:27.360)

I love him dearly.

Niels Jorgensen (2:40:28.200)

My cousin Tony in Ireland.

Lex Fridman (2:40:30.360)

And he said, he's just a little older than me.

Niels Jorgensen (2:40:32.320)

He's in his fifties.

Lex Fridman (2:40:33.160)

He said, man, I should have done it.

Niels Jorgensen (2:40:35.960)

I should have went to America.

Lex Fridman (2:40:37.000)

My dad said, go to America.

Niels Jorgensen (2:40:38.240)

I went to England and he went back to Ireland.

Lex Fridman (2:40:41.480)

And you know, but he's happy in Ireland.

Niels Jorgensen (2:40:43.200)

It's his home.

Lex Fridman (2:40:44.040)

But he said, wow, what a place of opportunity.

Lex Fridman (2:40:47.120)

And I said, it's never too late.

Lex Fridman (2:40:48.640)

He goes, yeah, but you know what?

Niels Jorgensen (2:40:49.640)

You get tied down.

Lex Fridman (2:40:50.800)

And I understand that.

Niels Jorgensen (2:40:52.400)

I thank God my mom came here at 16.

Lex Fridman (2:40:55.360)

I thank God my grandpa got on that ship.

Lex Fridman (2:40:57.480)

But in his 20s, 27, I think, you know,

Lex Fridman (2:41:00.560)

with not a nickel to rub together.

Niels Jorgensen (2:41:02.960)

I thank God they did it.

Lex Fridman (2:41:04.160)

Cause I don't know where else I would have ended up.

Niels Jorgensen (2:41:06.720)

There's no place else I want to be.

Lex Fridman (2:41:09.160)

And I thank God that there's people like you

Niels Jorgensen (2:41:12.200)

who rushed towards ground zero to help other human beings.

Lex Fridman (2:41:16.200)

And I believe that that human spirit

Niels Jorgensen (2:41:19.440)

is ultimately represents the best of this country

Lex Fridman (2:41:21.680)

and the best of this world.

Niels Jorgensen (2:41:23.360)

Thank you for the stories you're telling,

Lex Fridman (2:41:25.480)

for your perseverance in that.

Lex Fridman (2:41:27.760)

And thank you for welcoming me to the crew.

Lex Fridman (2:41:31.000)

You're very welcome.

Niels Jorgensen (2:41:31.840)

I'm proud.

Lex Fridman (2:41:32.680)

And we'll take you any day.

Niels Jorgensen (2:41:33.960)

You look like you could do the job just fine.

Lex Fridman (2:41:35.720)

I love lifting heavy things and doing dangerous things.

Lex Fridman (2:41:38.840)

So I'm proud to be part of this country

Lex Fridman (2:41:42.160)

and part of the Tally Ho now.

Niels Jorgensen (2:41:43.920)

Well, you are definitely an attribute to America

Lex Fridman (2:41:46.600)

and we're glad you chose to come here.

Niels Jorgensen (2:41:48.800)

You know, Lex, it's such a beautiful place.

Lex Fridman (2:41:51.440)

It's a beautiful melting pot.

Niels Jorgensen (2:41:52.720)

You know, if we were all the same,

Lex Fridman (2:41:54.080)

it would be kind of a boring place, right?

Niels Jorgensen (2:41:55.720)

Kind of boring.

Lex Fridman (2:41:56.680)

It really would.

Lex Fridman (2:41:57.560)

But it's just such a great place.

Lex Fridman (2:41:59.560)

And I just want to say thanks.

Niels Jorgensen (2:42:00.680)

It's an honor.

Lex Fridman (2:42:02.040)

It's an honor to have someone to let me sound off

Lex Fridman (2:42:04.880)

and it'll be even bigger honor

Lex Fridman (2:42:06.760)

if somebody will listen to me and just say,

Niels Jorgensen (2:42:08.480)

hey, you know, let me just try to do something good today.

Lex Fridman (2:42:11.520)

And you know, that's the tunnel to towers mantra

Niels Jorgensen (2:42:13.840)

is let us do good.

Lex Fridman (2:42:15.640)

And I just, you know,

Niels Jorgensen (2:42:20.320)

I got a really big credit card with God,

Lex Fridman (2:42:22.840)

a big balance, right?

Niels Jorgensen (2:42:24.040)

I need to pay him back a lot

Lex Fridman (2:42:26.360)

and I need to pay him forward.

Lex Fridman (2:42:27.720)

And I'm just going to spend the rest of my days

Lex Fridman (2:42:30.480)

trying my best.

Niels Jorgensen (2:42:31.400)

I don't know where this is going to go,

Lex Fridman (2:42:33.200)

what it'll lead into,

Lex Fridman (2:42:34.280)

but I really would like to get those dogs

Lex Fridman (2:42:37.080)

or those vets and build them that village

Lex Fridman (2:42:39.200)

and just keep going on from project to project

Lex Fridman (2:42:41.800)

to just say, when my final day comes

Lex Fridman (2:42:45.560)

and I'm laying there and I say, you know what?

Lex Fridman (2:42:48.320)

I really made the most of that second chance

Niels Jorgensen (2:42:50.400)

God gave me way back in 2011.

Lex Fridman (2:42:52.680)

I mean, I hope it's 30, 40 years from now,

Lex Fridman (2:42:55.000)

but even if it's 30 months from now,

Lex Fridman (2:42:57.400)

I'm giving it the best shot.

Lex Fridman (2:42:59.760)

So thank you, sir.

Lex Fridman (2:43:00.600)

I appreciate it and wishing you blessings

Lex Fridman (2:43:02.920)

and success in your career.

Lex Fridman (2:43:04.320)

Keep up the good fight

Lex Fridman (2:43:05.400)

and you're always welcome back to Texas.

Lex Fridman (2:43:08.040)

Oh, I love it.

Niels Jorgensen (2:43:08.880)

It's great food and a little hot,

Lex Fridman (2:43:11.720)

a little hot, but I can deal with it.

Lex Fridman (2:43:14.240)

We don't do so good Irish in the sun, you know?

Lex Fridman (2:43:17.200)

Well, the barbecue and the people are worth it.

Niels Jorgensen (2:43:19.040)

No, they are, they're awesome.

Lex Fridman (2:43:20.240)

I was down here for some storm relief a few years ago

Lex Fridman (2:43:23.680)

and I tell you what, I fell in love with it.

Lex Fridman (2:43:25.320)

The people are great, it's a great state

Lex Fridman (2:43:26.880)

and yeah, I'll definitely be back again for sure.

Lex Fridman (2:43:30.960)

Thanks for talking to me, Neil.

Niels Jorgensen (2:43:31.960)

Thank you, sir.

Lex Fridman (2:43:32.800)

Appreciate it.

Niels Jorgensen (2:43:34.240)

Thanks for listening to this conversation

Lex Fridman (2:43:35.840)

with Niels Jorgensen.

Niels Jorgensen (2:43:37.320)

To support this podcast,

Lex Fridman (2:43:38.520)

please check out our sponsors in the description.

Lex Fridman (2:43:41.760)

And now let me leave you with some words

Lex Fridman (2:43:43.360)

from Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Niels Jorgensen (2:43:45.800)

Human kindness has never weakened the stamina

Lex Fridman (2:43:48.920)

or softened the fiber of a free people.

Niels Jorgensen (2:43:51.840)

A nation does not have to be cruel, to be tough.

Lex Fridman (2:43:55.480)

Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

Lex Fridman (30:00.740)

But when it comes to gear, equipment,

Lex Fridman (30:03.620)

protective equipment, trucks, this couldn't get it.

Niels Jorgensen (30:08.220)

Just all the ways you could take care of people.

Lex Fridman (30:10.140)

I saw since 9 11, the wars in the Middle East

Niels Jorgensen (30:14.180)

have cost America over six trillion dollars.

Lex Fridman (30:17.380)

And the amount of that money that was spent

Niels Jorgensen (30:20.660)

on the soldiers, in this case the first responders,

Lex Fridman (30:24.860)

is minimal.

Niels Jorgensen (30:25.860)

Compared to it, yeah.

Lex Fridman (30:26.820)

Almost nothing.

Niels Jorgensen (30:27.660)

They, Lex, they closed down.

Lex Fridman (30:30.860)

I believe it's either seven or eight.

Niels Jorgensen (30:33.340)

In May of 2002, they closed down nine firehouses

Lex Fridman (30:40.340)

in New York City for budget reasons.

Niels Jorgensen (30:42.740)

We hadn't even finished cleaning up

Lex Fridman (30:44.320)

the World Trade Center site and they slashed the budget.

Lex Fridman (30:48.260)

And still to this day, have not reopened those firehouses.

Lex Fridman (30:52.620)

There's a million more people now living in New York City

Niels Jorgensen (30:55.100)

than there were in 2001.

Lex Fridman (30:57.500)

And the fire protection is way less than it was.

Lex Fridman (31:00.780)

And it's a sin.

Lex Fridman (31:02.580)

It's really a sin.

Lex Fridman (31:03.700)

Can I ask you a difficult question?

Lex Fridman (31:07.180)

So there's this famous photograph of a falling man.

Lex Fridman (31:13.460)

So many people had to decide when they're above the fire,

Lex Fridman (31:17.560)

in the fire, whether to jump out of the building

Niels Jorgensen (31:19.860)

or to burn to death.

Lex Fridman (31:21.880)

What do you make of that decision?

Lex Fridman (31:23.740)

What do you make of that situation?

Lex Fridman (31:25.940)

Those people who jumped,

Niels Jorgensen (31:28.500)

those were acts of sheer desperation.

Lex Fridman (31:31.420)

I've been in fires and just minor burns,

Lex Fridman (31:36.100)

but minor in situation.

Lex Fridman (31:37.660)

But I've been trapped, caught somewhat.

Niels Jorgensen (31:39.940)

Ended up in a burn center for nothing serious at all.

Lex Fridman (31:43.300)

But for those brief seconds, half a minute was,

Niels Jorgensen (31:49.100)

thank God, if I didn't have my fire gear on,

Lex Fridman (31:51.300)

I would have been burned to a very, very horrible level.

Niels Jorgensen (31:54.700)

Those people were burning alive.

Lex Fridman (31:58.840)

And they had the choice of either to stay there

Lex Fridman (32:01.500)

and burn alive or to launch themselves.

Lex Fridman (32:05.900)

And some of them, I don't fault them,

Lex Fridman (32:09.560)

but they had a few folks, they won't show it anymore

Lex Fridman (32:12.500)

because they say, I don't know why it offends some people,

Lex Fridman (32:15.580)

but they had a couple folks that took umbrellas

Lex Fridman (32:18.980)

and they took garbage bags

Niels Jorgensen (32:20.740)

because they thought that it would slow down

Lex Fridman (32:22.420)

their acceleration rate to the ground

Lex Fridman (32:24.740)

and maybe, just maybe they wouldn't be killed.

Lex Fridman (32:27.900)

And that's, to me, a true sense of desperation for humanity

Niels Jorgensen (32:32.220)

to say, I'm going to die either way,

Lex Fridman (32:34.840)

but let me take my chance.

Lex Fridman (32:36.900)

And I don't know the exact number of those folks

Lex Fridman (32:39.860)

who did that, but our first member of the fire department

Niels Jorgensen (32:43.100)

killed firefighter Daniel Serf, aged 216,

Lex Fridman (32:47.080)

was struck by a jumper.

Lex Fridman (32:49.380)

And one of my dear friends was ordered to help take him

Lex Fridman (32:54.980)

and they knew he was passed away

Niels Jorgensen (32:56.640)

because he was hit by a flying missile.

Lex Fridman (33:00.040)

I mean, 120 miles an hour, a body lands on you.

Niels Jorgensen (33:03.280)

Those two bodies are now crushed.

Lex Fridman (33:06.280)

And they were ordered to take that firefighter

Lex Fridman (33:08.560)

and bring him across the street to Engine 10, Ladder 10.

Lex Fridman (33:11.700)

It was literally a firehouse, less than 100 yards

Niels Jorgensen (33:16.380)

from the facade of the Trade Center,

Lex Fridman (33:18.180)

from the Trade Center complex.

Niels Jorgensen (33:19.940)

They were literally right there.

Lex Fridman (33:22.300)

And there was plane parts that went into that firehouse,

Niels Jorgensen (33:25.220)

landed into the front doors onto the roof,

Lex Fridman (33:27.500)

but the building itself was not destroyed.

Lex Fridman (33:30.140)

So it was used as a mini command center for quite a while.

Lex Fridman (33:35.000)

So my friend was ordered to take Daniel's body

Niels Jorgensen (33:37.420)

in respect and bring it over to this firehouse

Lex Fridman (33:43.640)

and give it some semblance of dignity

Lex Fridman (33:45.320)

and lay it out on one of the bunk rooms,

Lex Fridman (33:47.500)

the bunks we have in the bunkhouse,

Lex Fridman (33:50.440)

and just cover it with a sheet and put a sign,

Lex Fridman (33:53.560)

please firefighter killed, do not disturb,

Lex Fridman (33:56.040)

and then we'll get to him later

Lex Fridman (33:57.460)

because obviously this operation is gonna go on for days.

Lex Fridman (34:01.040)

And my friend, who's such a great, wonderful guy,

Lex Fridman (34:03.320)

is so still to this day, filled with guilt

Niels Jorgensen (34:06.960)

because if they weren't taking his body out

Lex Fridman (34:10.720)

with the respect and dignity that they did,

Niels Jorgensen (34:12.400)

it took a while because it's a tough situation.

Lex Fridman (34:17.320)

His ladder company was coming over the bridge.

Niels Jorgensen (34:20.680)

There's a famous picture of Ladder 118.

Lex Fridman (34:23.560)

You see this tractor trailer fire truck.

Niels Jorgensen (34:26.080)

It's the one when the guy in the back also drives.

Lex Fridman (34:29.360)

And it's a zoomed out shot, and you see the Brooklyn Bridge,

Lex Fridman (34:32.360)

and you see only the fire truck in the middle,

Lex Fridman (34:35.000)

and you see the two burning towers in the distance.

Niels Jorgensen (34:38.240)

Well, his engine company was just ahead of them

Lex Fridman (34:41.040)

on the bridge, and the only reason that engine company lived

Niels Jorgensen (34:44.840)

is their initial duty assignment

Lex Fridman (34:46.480)

was to take that firefighter and bring his body over.

Niels Jorgensen (34:49.600)

It's like the military.

Lex Fridman (34:50.440)

We don't leave anyone behind.

Niels Jorgensen (34:51.840)

These are our guys.

Lex Fridman (34:53.260)

As some guys say, it's all about the guy right next to you,

Lex Fridman (34:56.160)

and nothing else really matters.

Lex Fridman (34:58.200)

When that guy right next to you goes down, it stops.

Niels Jorgensen (35:01.080)

You get that guy to safety,

Lex Fridman (35:03.000)

or if he's dead, you get him out.

Lex Fridman (35:05.640)

So in that time frame, that saved his life.

Lex Fridman (35:10.080)

But that's a heavy burden to carry now

Niels Jorgensen (35:11.680)

for the rest of your life,

Lex Fridman (35:12.880)

because you say, if I wasn't helping my dead friend,

Niels Jorgensen (35:15.280)

I'm dead.

Lex Fridman (35:16.360)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (35:18.480)

What did it look like at Ground Zero?

Lex Fridman (35:21.280)

What did it feel like?

Lex Fridman (35:22.580)

What did it smell like?

Lex Fridman (35:24.240)

What, you said there was a sense

Niels Jorgensen (35:27.160)

that it was almost like a war zone,

Lex Fridman (35:29.240)

but can you paint a picture of how much dust is in the air?

Lex Fridman (35:33.760)

How hot is it?

Lex Fridman (35:35.240)

How many people are there?

Lex Fridman (35:37.760)

And again, how did it feel like?

Lex Fridman (35:40.460)

It was just, it was a scene of controlled chaos,

Niels Jorgensen (35:45.160)

controlled because there was a semblance of command,

Lex Fridman (35:47.720)

and we were just trying to do our jobs.

Lex Fridman (35:51.040)

But it was such a frantic pace

Lex Fridman (35:53.160)

because we're now digging frantically,

Niels Jorgensen (35:55.440)

knowing that there's life underneath this pile.

Lex Fridman (35:58.280)

And this is throughout the afternoon

Niels Jorgensen (36:00.000)

of that day, the evening.

Lex Fridman (36:01.520)

Yeah, I mean, this was nonstop,

Niels Jorgensen (36:04.600)

just nonstop, really, for days.

Lex Fridman (36:06.980)

But for my particular crew, we literally kept going.

Niels Jorgensen (36:10.720)

We initially were dispatched over towards number seven,

Lex Fridman (36:14.080)

had just gone down,

Lex Fridman (36:15.720)

and we were searching the post office that was there.

Lex Fridman (36:17.920)

There was reports of people trapped.

Lex Fridman (36:20.440)

And we painstakingly searched every single inch

Lex Fridman (36:22.880)

of that building to make sure no one was left in there.

Lex Fridman (36:25.480)

And then we were deployed to the pile,

Lex Fridman (36:28.160)

and the pile is sort of ambiguous

Niels Jorgensen (36:30.160)

because it was just such a vast, vast pile.

Lex Fridman (36:32.860)

I mean, it went for city blocks.

Lex Fridman (36:35.480)

And we were assisting in the retrieval

Lex Fridman (36:38.700)

of two Port Authority police officers.

Niels Jorgensen (36:42.120)

We're lucky enough to survive, but they were trapped.

Lex Fridman (36:45.000)

They were deep down into a crevasse,

Lex Fridman (36:46.860)

and they had to be physically dug out and extricated.

Lex Fridman (36:50.400)

So there was a couple hundred, few hundred guys involved

Niels Jorgensen (36:53.500)

in that process of bringing in equipment,

Lex Fridman (36:56.100)

jaws of life, airbags to lift steel,

Niels Jorgensen (36:59.360)

to cut pieces of steel.

Lex Fridman (37:00.640)

It was just a huge operation.

Lex Fridman (37:03.240)

And we were back toward the logistics end of it,

Lex Fridman (37:05.840)

shuttling in gear and bringing in stretchers,

Niels Jorgensen (37:09.360)

bringing in oxygen, whatever was needed.

Lex Fridman (37:11.760)

And you were trying to climb over

Niels Jorgensen (37:13.980)

this jagged pile of debris.

Lex Fridman (37:16.620)

It wasn't like you just walked 100 feet

Niels Jorgensen (37:18.680)

on a street with something.

Lex Fridman (37:20.200)

You were trying to climb over this I beam

Lex Fridman (37:22.800)

and then down into this hole and then back up that hole.

Lex Fridman (37:25.280)

I mean, just to run one piece of equipment

Niels Jorgensen (37:27.460)

took a half an hour to get 100 feet, 200 feet.

Lex Fridman (37:32.200)

You know, mind you, some of these pieces of equipment

Niels Jorgensen (37:34.000)

are 100 pounds, you know, generator for hearse tools,

Lex Fridman (37:36.760)

this massive motor on a frame.

Niels Jorgensen (37:39.960)

Unstable ground.

Lex Fridman (37:41.080)

Unstable ground, just horrible conditions.

Niels Jorgensen (37:44.000)

Fires were still burning aside you, beneath you.

Lex Fridman (37:47.240)

And at one point, I kind of veered off to the side

Lex Fridman (37:51.000)

and I was with this other fireman

Lex Fridman (37:52.520)

from my father's old ladder company, 172.

Lex Fridman (37:55.360)

And it was strange because we were quite a bit down,

Lex Fridman (38:00.480)

like 70 feet down into this ravine of debris.

Lex Fridman (38:04.440)

And he says, brother, what do you hear?

Lex Fridman (38:06.880)

And at the time it was like dust,

Niels Jorgensen (38:08.400)

it was like sand just falling down a pile

Lex Fridman (38:11.800)

and it was hissing from gas pipes and water pipes.

Lex Fridman (38:15.040)

And I said, I hear the gas lines,

Lex Fridman (38:17.840)

I hear the sand, I hear the concrete.

Lex Fridman (38:20.360)

He goes, no, no, what else do you hear?

Lex Fridman (38:23.640)

And just the side of us was a lady's pocketbook

Lex Fridman (38:26.560)

and a high heel shoe and someone's sneaker

Lex Fridman (38:31.000)

with nobody with it.

Lex Fridman (38:33.820)

And I said, I don't know, I don't hear anything.

Lex Fridman (38:37.040)

He says, me neither.

Niels Jorgensen (38:37.960)

He goes, no one's coming out of here.

Lex Fridman (38:41.120)

And I said, no, no, no,

Niels Jorgensen (38:42.320)

there's gotta be someone coming out of here.

Lex Fridman (38:44.040)

I mean, there's just thousands of people in here

Lex Fridman (38:45.680)

and they're coming out.

Lex Fridman (38:47.480)

He says, brother, we would hear them calling for help,

Niels Jorgensen (38:51.040)

they're gone.

Lex Fridman (38:52.760)

And I still at that point thought there was a chance.

Lex Fridman (38:55.880)

And after about the fourth day,

Lex Fridman (38:59.400)

they just said, this is a recovery now.

Niels Jorgensen (39:02.040)

There's no more life, there's no more chance.

Lex Fridman (39:05.240)

And then that first night we went full tilt

Niels Jorgensen (39:07.320)

till my crew, my specific crew of 12, 15 guys.

Lex Fridman (39:11.080)

And four in the morning, we just couldn't breathe anymore.

Niels Jorgensen (39:14.080)

We couldn't see, we were caked just with,

Lex Fridman (39:16.680)

it was like if you took flour

Lex Fridman (39:18.200)

and just kept dousing yourself.

Lex Fridman (39:20.680)

And the Lieutenant just said, look, guys,

Niels Jorgensen (39:22.560)

we're gonna go back, we're gonna get some medical aid

Lex Fridman (39:25.120)

and then we'll come back in a few hours.

Lex Fridman (39:27.520)

And we took a city bus back through the battery tunnel

Lex Fridman (39:33.800)

and unbeknownst to us that morning,

Niels Jorgensen (39:37.960)

this off duty firefighter,

Lex Fridman (39:39.320)

Steven Siller from Squad Company One,

Niels Jorgensen (39:42.500)

he raced down there with his pickup

Lex Fridman (39:44.920)

and he couldn't go any further

Niels Jorgensen (39:47.560)

because the traffic was stopped up

Lex Fridman (39:49.080)

because they had a report of a bomb.

Lex Fridman (39:51.520)

So everything was held up and he grabbed his fire gear

Lex Fridman (39:55.920)

and he put it on, stuff weighs about 60 pounds.

Lex Fridman (39:59.600)

And he ran through the tunnel.

Lex Fridman (40:02.320)

Two and a half miles, got to the end of the tunnel,

Niels Jorgensen (40:05.600)

fire truck was coming in from the other way.

Lex Fridman (40:08.160)

He hopped on the back, got him up to West Street,

Niels Jorgensen (40:11.060)

jumped off, tried to look for his company,

Lex Fridman (40:14.120)

where they were and he was never seen again.

Niels Jorgensen (40:19.920)

He just ran through the tunnel.

Lex Fridman (40:21.400)

Ran through the tunnel and he got there

Lex Fridman (40:24.080)

to help his team, right?

Lex Fridman (40:26.040)

It's all about the team,

Niels Jorgensen (40:26.880)

it's all about the guy right next to you.

Lex Fridman (40:28.880)

And he's the Tunnel to Towers Foundation, Steven.

Niels Jorgensen (40:31.040)

His brother Frank decided in his name in perpetuity,

Lex Fridman (40:35.760)

he's got a fund that now builds a home

Niels Jorgensen (40:39.160)

for every Gold Star family,

Lex Fridman (40:41.280)

for every seriously battle wounded warrior,

Niels Jorgensen (40:44.120)

for every seriously wounded first responder

Lex Fridman (40:47.240)

or killed in a line of duty first responder.

Niels Jorgensen (40:49.720)

If they had a home, they'll pay the mortgage.

Lex Fridman (40:52.780)

If they didn't have a home, they give them a home.

Lex Fridman (40:56.080)

And especially if it's a severely battle wounded,

Lex Fridman (40:58.800)

they give them a smart home

Niels Jorgensen (41:00.000)

because these poor guys come home with no limbs.

Lex Fridman (41:03.100)

And so the beauty of Steven and his selfless act

Niels Jorgensen (41:07.920)

was that he's now helped thousands and thousands of people.

Lex Fridman (41:12.200)

I mean, the Tunnel to Towers is incredible.

Niels Jorgensen (41:14.040)

That's part of our mission is to bring awareness

Lex Fridman (41:17.240)

to these great people at Tunnel to Towers, what they do.

Niels Jorgensen (41:19.520)

They've raised $250 million to help protect the protectors,

Lex Fridman (41:25.480)

to rescue the rescuers in a what's become, unfortunately,

Niels Jorgensen (41:30.040)

a somewhat ungrateful society.

Lex Fridman (41:33.120)

But they will not forget these great guys.

Lex Fridman (41:37.200)

So you tell Steven's story.

Lex Fridman (41:39.840)

He's one of the 20 people that you talk about

Niels Jorgensen (41:42.640)

in the new Iron Labs 20 for 20 podcast series.

Lex Fridman (41:46.980)

If you can just linger on his story a little longer,

Lex Fridman (41:51.920)

what does that tell you about the human spirit?

Lex Fridman (41:54.120)

That this guy, the Tunnel couldn't drive through,

Lex Fridman (41:59.400)

so he just puts on that heavy pack and runs.

Lex Fridman (42:03.160)

What do you make of that?

Niels Jorgensen (42:04.360)

That shows the depth of a man's soul.

Lex Fridman (42:08.640)

He didn't have to do that.

Niels Jorgensen (42:10.240)

He could have turned around and went home to his family,

Lex Fridman (42:13.460)

and nobody would have shamed him.

Lex Fridman (42:16.220)

But he's one of those beautiful, brave people

Lex Fridman (42:21.080)

that take a job that really doesn't pay a lot of money.

Lex Fridman (42:25.600)

And you become a cop or a firefighter or a nurse or an EMT

Lex Fridman (42:30.600)

or a medic or a soldier or a Marine or airman, sailor.

Niels Jorgensen (42:36.200)

When you take these jobs, you don't do it for fanfare.

Lex Fridman (42:41.920)

You definitely don't do it for money.

Niels Jorgensen (42:43.840)

I mean, those 13 brave souls we lost a week or two ago

Lex Fridman (42:47.520)

in Afghanistan, they're brand new soldiers and Marines.

Niels Jorgensen (42:51.240)

They make $22,000 an hour,

Lex Fridman (42:54.120)

but they don't work 40 hours a week.

Niels Jorgensen (42:56.240)

They work 80, they work 90 hours a week.

Lex Fridman (42:58.440)

So they make it about six bucks an hour.

Lex Fridman (43:01.240)

And you know what?

Lex Fridman (43:02.080)

They sign off.

Lex Fridman (43:03.600)

And firefighters and cops and medics and EMTs,

Lex Fridman (43:07.680)

nurses, emergency room doctors,

Niels Jorgensen (43:10.840)

they don't really make a lot of money.

Lex Fridman (43:12.480)

I mean, they're starting salary right now for a New York cop.

Niels Jorgensen (43:14.980)

I was a New York cop for two years first.

Lex Fridman (43:17.440)

I made 12.25 an hour back in 1989 to get shot at

Niels Jorgensen (43:23.060)

during the crack wars.

Lex Fridman (43:24.960)

If you made $11 an hour with a family of four,

Niels Jorgensen (43:30.160)

you were entitled to welfare back then.

Lex Fridman (43:33.040)

So I was just above the welfare level, risking my life.

Lex Fridman (43:38.420)

And these are the guys that are getting ripped up now.

Lex Fridman (43:41.480)

Right?

Lex Fridman (43:42.320)

And look, I won't get into any politics,

Lex Fridman (43:44.680)

but like that says something about someone's soul

Niels Jorgensen (43:48.560)

that they're willing to take a job like that

Lex Fridman (43:50.640)

and get now, get zero respect.

Lex Fridman (43:53.640)

So a guy like Steven, what that shows is the depth

Lex Fridman (43:56.400)

of that man's soul and courage and determination.

Niels Jorgensen (44:00.840)

It's hard to be selfless in this world anymore,

Lex Fridman (44:04.280)

but I still know a lot of selfless people

Niels Jorgensen (44:06.260)

that just put on equipment every day, bulletproof vests,

Lex Fridman (44:09.600)

fire bunker gear, stethoscopes,

Niels Jorgensen (44:13.640)

you know, flak jackets, military helmets,

Lex Fridman (44:17.440)

and they go in and they do it smiling.

Niels Jorgensen (44:19.800)

That young Marine that passed last week,

Lex Fridman (44:23.680)

she was photographed and quoted as saying,

Niels Jorgensen (44:26.660)

I have my dream job,

Lex Fridman (44:28.080)

but she was holding a little Afghani baby.

Lex Fridman (44:30.960)

And she was dead a few days later.

Lex Fridman (44:33.320)

She was so thrilled to be making $7 an hour

Lex Fridman (44:36.000)

helping people, right?

Lex Fridman (44:36.880)

Isn't that huge?

Niels Jorgensen (44:37.720)

Like that to me says,

Lex Fridman (44:39.720)

that's a true sign of character right there.

Lex Fridman (44:42.440)

And it's important for our society

Lex Fridman (44:43.880)

to elevate those people as heroes.

Niels Jorgensen (44:46.120)

Let me ask you about firefighting.

Lex Fridman (44:50.480)

What do you think it means to be a great firefighter

Lex Fridman (44:53.720)

and a great man, a great human being

Lex Fridman (44:57.160)

in a situation like you were in in 9 11?

Niels Jorgensen (45:03.080)

You know, that's kind of a broad term.

Lex Fridman (45:06.040)

Like some, you know, you can go to different firehouses

Lex Fridman (45:08.720)

and they might have a different definition

Lex Fridman (45:10.400)

of what they consider a great firefighter.

Lex Fridman (45:12.440)

But I think in the industry as a whole,

Lex Fridman (45:15.440)

if you're willing to put everyone else before you,

Niels Jorgensen (45:19.800)

especially your team, you know,

Lex Fridman (45:22.160)

as we say, there ain't no I in team, right?

Niels Jorgensen (45:24.280)

It's T E A M and there's no I in there.

Lex Fridman (45:26.400)

It's all about those guys and girls next to you.

Niels Jorgensen (45:30.760)

If you can do that, that makes you pretty great.

Lex Fridman (45:34.520)

You put everything else second and you just run in

Lex Fridman (45:38.000)

and you run in with that team for strangers.

Lex Fridman (45:40.600)

You know, I've had the honor of,

Niels Jorgensen (45:43.680)

I spent almost 25 years of my adult life serving humanity,

Lex Fridman (45:48.680)

my country, my former city.

Lex Fridman (45:52.920)

And the people I worked with were giants.

Lex Fridman (45:55.880)

And I don't mean that in height,

Niels Jorgensen (45:57.360)

I mean, but I mean that in spirit and in soul.

Lex Fridman (46:00.400)

I saw some of the most heroic, selfless acts.

Lex Fridman (46:04.960)

And then I saw some of the behind the scenes

Lex Fridman (46:06.960)

that were so impressive.

Niels Jorgensen (46:08.040)

You know, we'd go to the movies,

Lex Fridman (46:09.440)

so impressive, you know, we'd go to a fire around Christmas

Lex Fridman (46:13.000)

and the family would lose everything.

Lex Fridman (46:16.120)

And even when I was a cop, same thing,

Niels Jorgensen (46:17.680)

you'd come back either to the police precinct

Lex Fridman (46:19.600)

or the firehouse or the EMS station.

Lex Fridman (46:23.080)

And someone would put together a collection and say,

Lex Fridman (46:24.960)

hey guys, hey Lex, 50 bucks a man,

Niels Jorgensen (46:28.000)

you know, the Smith's down the street,

Lex Fridman (46:29.600)

just lost everything, we're gonna go get some presents

Niels Jorgensen (46:31.760)

for the kids and some turkeys.

Lex Fridman (46:33.760)

And not one of those guys questioned that.

Lex Fridman (46:36.960)

And they were making 12.25 an hour

Lex Fridman (46:39.200)

and they still came up with 50 bucks for that family.

Lex Fridman (46:42.280)

But see, that's the stuff the press won't show you, right?

Lex Fridman (46:45.280)

They don't wanna show that humanity, that soft edge.

Niels Jorgensen (46:49.240)

See, when you're a warrior, you need to have

Lex Fridman (46:51.000)

this rough shield, this rough exterior.

Niels Jorgensen (46:54.360)

Cause if you don't, you die.

Lex Fridman (46:56.840)

But a true great firefighter or responder or a cop

Niels Jorgensen (47:02.440)

or military personnel, they have that rough exterior

Lex Fridman (47:06.640)

with that soft underbelly, that heart, right?

Lex Fridman (47:11.360)

And that's, to me, the true great ones.

Lex Fridman (47:14.520)

Some of them, they just have a hard time doing that.

Niels Jorgensen (47:17.920)

There's no shame in showing your soft side.

Lex Fridman (47:20.960)

Well, you got your dad to say I love you back.

Niels Jorgensen (47:23.400)

No, that was huge, man.

Lex Fridman (47:25.360)

That took me 22 years, Lex.

Lex Fridman (47:28.360)

So you were a firefighter for 21, I was 22 years.

Lex Fridman (47:31.760)

Why did you become a firefighter?

Niels Jorgensen (47:33.680)

Oh, my dad, I mean, I was five years old

Lex Fridman (47:36.760)

and I went to his firehouse and there was these,

Niels Jorgensen (47:39.320)

at the time, they looked like giants to me with mustaches

Lex Fridman (47:42.600)

and the trucks smelled like smoke and the gear smelled

Niels Jorgensen (47:47.520)

like smoke and the tires and the diesel fuel

Lex Fridman (47:50.880)

and that one was like, this is what I'm gonna do.

Lex Fridman (47:53.880)

And then they bring you in the kitchen

Lex Fridman (47:55.800)

and they stuff you with ice cream and cake and everything.

Lex Fridman (47:58.760)

And then I go home to my mom, shaking with a sugar cone

Lex Fridman (48:02.560)

and she's mad at my dad, but yeah, it was just,

Niels Jorgensen (48:04.760)

oh, I was like, I gotta do this.

Lex Fridman (48:06.320)

It was like, they were like a baseball team in a garage

Niels Jorgensen (48:09.720)

with a truck and these big tools and big coats and helmets

Lex Fridman (48:12.740)

and they were just laughing and having fun

Lex Fridman (48:14.720)

and I'm like, yeah, man, I'm doing this.

Lex Fridman (48:17.040)

And I knew, I was obsessed with it.

Niels Jorgensen (48:19.480)

I mean, I was so pissed that the fireman's test came out

Lex Fridman (48:22.280)

when I was 14 and I couldn't take it, you had to be 18.

Lex Fridman (48:26.160)

And it was done, the test was graded and whatever.

Lex Fridman (48:29.960)

So my dad, now there's a copy circulating

Niels Jorgensen (48:32.800)

because it's old now.

Lex Fridman (48:34.560)

And he goes, yeah, yeah, this is what you're in for.

Lex Fridman (48:37.260)

And I took it and I did it like it was real

Lex Fridman (48:40.240)

and I got a 99 and I was so pissed.

Niels Jorgensen (48:42.360)

I said, I wanna get hired.

Lex Fridman (48:43.680)

He goes, you can't, you're 14.

Lex Fridman (48:45.440)

But I just wanted to do it so bad

Lex Fridman (48:49.000)

and I just wanted to help people.

Niels Jorgensen (48:50.800)

I just wanted to be like my dad,

Lex Fridman (48:53.680)

he'd come home smiling as tired as he was

Lex Fridman (48:56.400)

and he fought fires in the 60s and 70s

Lex Fridman (48:58.560)

when the city was burning and he's still

Niels Jorgensen (49:01.640)

as exhausted as he was, he'd still be smiling.

Lex Fridman (49:05.320)

I wanted to smile at work and I used to,

Niels Jorgensen (49:08.520)

I got paid to laugh and joke.

Lex Fridman (49:10.840)

I got paid to cry sometimes.

Lex Fridman (49:13.040)

But man, we laughed a lot.

Lex Fridman (49:14.560)

We really, it was, the chop breaking is just,

Niels Jorgensen (49:17.120)

it's just unending and it's great.

Lex Fridman (49:19.360)

If you don't mind, can you tell me,

Niels Jorgensen (49:21.400)

you were really kind enough to give me

Lex Fridman (49:25.220)

one of these shirts with 114.

Lex Fridman (49:27.760)

Can you tell me the story of 114 and Tally Ho?

Lex Fridman (49:31.160)

I wear proudly, I served eight years in that command

Lex Fridman (49:34.240)

and I didn't finish my career there.

Lex Fridman (49:36.560)

I passed the lieutenant's test

Lex Fridman (49:38.720)

and once you do, you have to leave.

Lex Fridman (49:41.600)

The story behind Tally Ho is back in World War II,

Niels Jorgensen (49:46.280)

there was this gentleman named Bad Jack Carroll

Lex Fridman (49:48.560)

and Jack was an airborne ranger

Lex Fridman (49:50.840)

and my father in law was also on the department

Lex Fridman (49:53.560)

and he knew Jack.

Lex Fridman (49:54.640)

And Jack came home, Jack jumped Normandy

Lex Fridman (49:59.120)

and stormed up through the Battle of the Bulls in Bastogne

Lex Fridman (50:02.440)

and he came back, greatest generation as they all did

Lex Fridman (50:07.960)

and they got jobs and they went right to work

Lex Fridman (50:10.280)

and they were treated better back then, vets, right?

Lex Fridman (50:14.780)

And he got on the New York City Fire Department

Lex Fridman (50:16.960)

and he got assigned a ladder 114

Lex Fridman (50:19.760)

and they first got radios back then

Lex Fridman (50:23.480)

and when Jack, he would drive the truck,

Lex Fridman (50:25.800)

you're up there with the officer,

Niels Jorgensen (50:27.480)

either the lieutenant or captain,

Lex Fridman (50:28.860)

so if the boss is off the truck,

Niels Jorgensen (50:31.160)

you operate the radio for them as the driver.

Lex Fridman (50:33.720)

So when they called him and they'd say,

Niels Jorgensen (50:35.840)

you know, ladder 114 responding to 52nd Street,

Lex Fridman (50:38.460)

3rd Avenue, Structure Fire,

Niels Jorgensen (50:40.460)

you're supposed to get back and say,

Lex Fridman (50:41.880)

ladder 114, 10 four, but he refused to do that.

Niels Jorgensen (50:44.760)

He'd say, ladder 114, Tally Ho,

Lex Fridman (50:47.320)

because that's what they'd yell

Niels Jorgensen (50:48.240)

when they'd jump out the plane.

Lex Fridman (50:50.200)

So all these years later, it stuck

Lex Fridman (50:52.400)

and it's a little bit of a bragging right,

Lex Fridman (50:54.840)

but out of 350 engine and truck companies

Niels Jorgensen (50:58.240)

in the whole New York City Fire Department,

Lex Fridman (51:00.320)

we're pretty much the only one

Niels Jorgensen (51:01.440)

that's called by their nickname on the radio,

Lex Fridman (51:03.520)

not their number.

Lex Fridman (51:04.360)

So it tweaked some guys off in other places,

Lex Fridman (51:07.200)

you know, they may F you, Tally Ho,

Lex Fridman (51:09.380)

but it's just, yeah, it's a great, great heritage

Lex Fridman (51:13.320)

and we're really proud and Shamrock was,

Niels Jorgensen (51:17.520)

he was Irish and a lot of the guys back then

Lex Fridman (51:20.760)

were Irish immigrants from the area,

Niels Jorgensen (51:23.120)

from the neighborhood,

Lex Fridman (51:23.960)

and they would actually take the fire truck

Niels Jorgensen (51:26.040)

to church on Sunday and park out front

Lex Fridman (51:28.360)

and one guy would stay in it to hear the radio

Niels Jorgensen (51:31.040)

in case they got a call.

Lex Fridman (51:32.240)

So yeah, that's the proud history.

Lex Fridman (51:35.160)

And you said that if I wear this around New York,

Lex Fridman (51:37.320)

am I getting a little bit of?

Niels Jorgensen (51:38.280)

You might get a guy from the Bronx,

Lex Fridman (51:39.600)

go, hey, Tally Ho, screw you, you know?

Lex Fridman (51:41.600)

But I mean, it's all that good rivalry, you know?

Lex Fridman (51:44.640)

We like to, you know, we like to kid each other

Niels Jorgensen (51:47.960)

back and forth, you know, guys from Manhattan,

Lex Fridman (51:51.400)

we'll say, yeah, you guys are in Brooklyn,

Niels Jorgensen (51:52.840)

yeah, short buildings, tall stories.

Lex Fridman (51:54.840)

And they're like, yeah, you guys are in Manhattan,

Lex Fridman (51:56.760)

tall buildings, no stories, you know?

Lex Fridman (51:59.360)

Like it's just all that jocular ball break

Lex Fridman (52:02.520)

and it's good stuff, you know?

Lex Fridman (52:04.760)

Let me ask, I guess, a difficult question.

Niels Jorgensen (52:08.200)

If you just step back on the events of 9 11,

Lex Fridman (52:11.560)

on the side of the people that flew into the towers,

Lex Fridman (52:15.760)

what do you take away from that day about the nature,

Lex Fridman (52:20.280)

about human nature, about good and evil?

Lex Fridman (52:23.760)

How did that change your view of the world?

Lex Fridman (52:29.000)

I witnessed evil firsthand.

Niels Jorgensen (52:32.480)

I remember later on, well into that night

Lex Fridman (52:35.680)

when we were trying to help get those police officers out,

Niels Jorgensen (52:38.800)

I remember looking up at the building, Century 21,

Lex Fridman (52:41.320)

the store runs along the east side of the towers

Lex Fridman (52:45.680)

and it was still there and the debris had come down

Lex Fridman (52:48.360)

right almost to the edge.

Niels Jorgensen (52:50.040)

Century 21 is this old storied department store

Lex Fridman (52:53.120)

in New York City and the sign was there

Lex Fridman (52:56.360)

and it was still lit up, like some of the neon was broken

Lex Fridman (52:59.600)

but I think some of it was actually still lit up

Lex Fridman (53:02.320)

and I just looked around and I was like,

Lex Fridman (53:05.080)

this is a war zone, like we're at war.

Lex Fridman (53:08.040)

And we knew we were attacked, we heard the fighter planes

Lex Fridman (53:11.320)

and back then it wasn't the extensive communication

Niels Jorgensen (53:15.600)

network and we had cell phones but they were the old school

Lex Fridman (53:18.120)

flip phones and there was no news on them

Lex Fridman (53:20.480)

and so plus we didn't have signal down there anyway.

Lex Fridman (53:24.560)

I couldn't reach my family for like 12, 13 hours

Lex Fridman (53:27.640)

and my dad had deployed down to the ferry terminal

Lex Fridman (53:31.120)

to retrieve bodies.

Niels Jorgensen (53:33.920)

He was retired but he still went and they deployed him

Lex Fridman (53:37.720)

to go be basically the morgue transport guys.

Niels Jorgensen (53:41.520)

They expected to be sending hundreds and thousands

Lex Fridman (53:44.840)

of bodies across on the ferry and they set up

Niels Jorgensen (53:47.680)

these tractor trailers as a mobile morgue

Lex Fridman (53:50.040)

and that never happened because there were no bodies

Niels Jorgensen (53:53.680)

to take, they were all buried.

Lex Fridman (53:58.400)

So I saw evil firsthand, I don't know how someone

Niels Jorgensen (54:01.600)

can inflict such revenge or a vengeful act

Lex Fridman (54:07.640)

in the name of anything, in the name of a religion,

Lex Fridman (54:10.680)

in the name of a cause, in the name, like what the hell?

Lex Fridman (54:14.760)

Were you ever able to make sense of that,

Lex Fridman (54:16.480)

why men are able to commit such acts of terror

Lex Fridman (54:19.080)

in the days and the years after?

Niels Jorgensen (54:22.320)

No, Lex, I haven't.

Lex Fridman (54:26.000)

My mom's from Ireland and I still have a lot of family there

Lex Fridman (54:30.160)

and my great uncles, one of them was dragged out and shot.

Lex Fridman (54:35.800)

He lived but just based on a rumor that he was in the IRA

Lex Fridman (54:39.520)

and I wasn't happy to see what happened to my mom's people

Lex Fridman (54:44.720)

because they were victimized and brutalized

Niels Jorgensen (54:47.720)

by England at that time.

Lex Fridman (54:50.800)

But blowing up bombs and killing innocents

Niels Jorgensen (54:55.680)

in the name of that, it doesn't make it right.

Lex Fridman (55:00.080)

I couldn't justify something like that.

Niels Jorgensen (55:02.280)

I can see, I was a cop, I was a soldier

Lex Fridman (55:07.280)

and you never wanna take life and those jobs

Lex Fridman (55:12.960)

but sometimes you have to.

Lex Fridman (55:15.320)

But you don't do it with a vengeance,

Niels Jorgensen (55:16.920)

you don't do it with a thirst,

Lex Fridman (55:18.400)

you do it because it's necessary for survival.

Niels Jorgensen (55:22.560)

When you do it out of a bloodlust, out of a thirst,

Lex Fridman (55:25.240)

out of a cause, that's evil, there's something wrong

Niels Jorgensen (55:28.600)

with you, I have no, I respect life to the highest level.

Lex Fridman (55:33.600)

I mean, I'm very, life is sacred to me, it's precious,

Niels Jorgensen (55:36.720)

it's beyond, it's not a commodity, it's a gift.

Lex Fridman (55:42.520)

But to take life just so randomly,

Lex Fridman (55:45.280)

so there's something way wrong with that person

Lex Fridman (55:47.640)

and maybe I'm a conflicted soul

Lex Fridman (55:50.320)

but I would have no problem seeing someone like that

Lex Fridman (55:53.320)

put to death because they do not deserve life.

Niels Jorgensen (55:59.120)

There's many children around me

Lex Fridman (56:02.440)

and many children around this world

Niels Jorgensen (56:04.480)

that are being taught to hate someone

Lex Fridman (56:07.080)

who's different than them just because the person

Niels Jorgensen (56:10.840)

who's allegedly teaching them says so.

Lex Fridman (56:13.840)

I don't understand it.

Niels Jorgensen (56:14.840)

Well, that starts with just having a basic respect

Lex Fridman (56:19.160)

and appreciation of other human beings

Lex Fridman (56:21.600)

and that starts with empathy.

Lex Fridman (56:24.240)

And one of the reasons I love this country,

Niels Jorgensen (56:27.600)

while joking that I'm Russian, maybe you could say the same

Lex Fridman (56:31.120)

as you being Irish, you're actually truly an American

Lex Fridman (56:35.320)

and that's why I consider myself very much an American.

Lex Fridman (56:37.920)

And one of the reasons I love this country

Niels Jorgensen (56:40.360)

is it serves as a beacon.

Lex Fridman (56:42.800)

I still believe it serves as a beacon of hope

Lex Fridman (56:46.880)

and that empathy and love for the rest of the world

Lex Fridman (56:50.280)

that hate is not gonna get you far,

Niels Jorgensen (56:54.040)

that love will get you a lot farther.

Lex Fridman (56:55.680)

And I still think sometimes it's easy

Niels Jorgensen (56:58.760)

to see the press, mainstream media,

Lex Fridman (57:03.960)

you could see social networks.

Niels Jorgensen (57:05.880)

Because you can make so much money on division,

Lex Fridman (57:08.960)

sometimes because it makes so much money,

Niels Jorgensen (57:11.960)

it's easy to think like we're really divided.

Lex Fridman (57:14.720)

I honestly don't think we are.

Niels Jorgensen (57:16.280)

That's just like the very surface level thing

Lex Fridman (57:18.920)

we see on Twitter and so on.

Niels Jorgensen (57:20.160)

It's that you're 100% right.

Lex Fridman (57:23.320)

There's people out there that are maximizing

Lex Fridman (57:25.200)

off this whole division, right?

Lex Fridman (57:27.960)

They want us divided, they want people angry

Niels Jorgensen (57:30.720)

because it sells.

Lex Fridman (57:32.680)

A lot of these people that are in charge

Niels Jorgensen (57:34.880)

of certain organizations, well, they all seem to have

Lex Fridman (57:38.440)

nice cars and nice houses and nice vacations

Lex Fridman (57:42.120)

and they're constantly trying to convince everybody

Lex Fridman (57:45.640)

that we hate each other.

Lex Fridman (57:47.360)

To me, I'll use a fireman analogy, right?

Lex Fridman (57:49.360)

It's like a little campfire.

Lex Fridman (57:51.480)

And if you just let the embers flutter, they'll go out.

Lex Fridman (57:55.880)

But if you take a little cup of gasoline with those embers,

Niels Jorgensen (57:58.560)

boom, it'll blow right up in your face.

Lex Fridman (58:01.760)

And that's what a lot of these politicians

Lex Fridman (58:04.280)

and a lot of these media folks are doing

Lex Fridman (58:06.520)

because there's something in it for them.

Lex Fridman (58:08.680)

And I think it's possible to defeat them

Lex Fridman (58:11.360)

with great leaders, with great spokespeople,

Niels Jorgensen (58:14.840)

with great human beings having a voice.

Lex Fridman (58:17.000)

One of the powerful things with the internet

Niels Jorgensen (58:19.240)

is more and more people have a voice.

Lex Fridman (58:21.960)

And I ultimately believe, certainly in America,

Lex Fridman (58:25.480)

but in the world, the good people outnumber the assholes.

Lex Fridman (58:30.280)

Oh, I agree.

Lex Fridman (58:31.120)

And there's days when I think the assholes

Lex Fridman (58:33.200)

are overrunning us, but you know what?

Niels Jorgensen (58:38.080)

I think what the downfall of the world is

Lex Fridman (58:41.760)

is ego and arrogance and people that think they're better

Niels Jorgensen (58:45.760)

than that other guy.

Lex Fridman (58:47.440)

My parents raised me to be this way.

Niels Jorgensen (58:49.800)

My mom is such a sweet, gentle soul.

Lex Fridman (58:52.120)

She's an immigrant.

Niels Jorgensen (58:52.960)

She came here at 16 years old.

Lex Fridman (58:55.040)

She helps everybody but herself, right?

Niels Jorgensen (58:57.680)

She's just one of those people.

Lex Fridman (58:59.040)

She's sick.

Niels Jorgensen (58:59.880)

She's got Parkinson's.

Lex Fridman (59:01.400)

You'd never know it.

Lex Fridman (59:02.320)

And she's still flying around her condo complex

Lex Fridman (59:04.920)

helping everybody because that's what she does.

Niels Jorgensen (59:08.040)

She loves to help people.

Lex Fridman (59:10.440)

But she's been in their shoes.

Niels Jorgensen (59:12.080)

She's been poor.

Lex Fridman (59:13.920)

She's sick.

Niels Jorgensen (59:14.760)

Her husband was sick.

Lex Fridman (59:15.720)

She's had all sorts of suffering and loss in her life.

Niels Jorgensen (59:19.640)

My granddad died when my mom was 10

Lex Fridman (59:23.120)

and she was one of 10 children that survived out of 14.

Niels Jorgensen (59:27.320)

She knows hard times, but she so appreciates the good times

Lex Fridman (59:32.960)

and the goodness of this country.

Niels Jorgensen (59:35.720)

You know, the fire department

Lex Fridman (59:38.640)

and the police department, military,

Niels Jorgensen (59:40.200)

it taught me a lot about empathy

Lex Fridman (59:41.760)

and trying to really feel for someone

Lex Fridman (59:43.920)

and put yourself in their situation.

Lex Fridman (59:48.000)

I remember years back, I was a much younger fireman.

Niels Jorgensen (59:50.920)

I was probably five years on the job.

Lex Fridman (59:53.520)

And I was sent down to the next firehouse over to fill in.

Niels Jorgensen (59:58.600)

You know, we would get sent around randomly