Magatte Wade: Africa, Capitalism, Communism, and the Future of Humanity
商业与创业音乐与艺术政治与社会技术与编程心理与人性
📋 章节目录
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🔑 关键词
dongoingafricasaidtalkingbusinesscountrydoingfreeafricanblackwholehumanpersonputespeciallyeconomicsenegaltalkstarted
💬 精彩语录
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🎙️ 完整对话（4778 条）
Lex Fridman (00:00.000)
you have to have the free markets
你必须拥有自由市场
Lex Fridman (00:03.000)
in order to build prosperity.
为了建设繁荣。
Lex Fridman (00:04.840)
And prosperity means economic power.
繁荣意味着经济实力。
Lex Fridman (00:09.360)
If you have economic power, no one messes with you.
如果你有经济实力，就没有人来惹你。
Lex Fridman (00:14.000)
Or if they're gonna do it, they're gonna have to think twice
或者如果他们要这么做，他们就必须三思而后行
Lex Fridman (00:15.840)
and when they do, they're gonna have to pay consequences.
当他们这样做时，他们将不得不承担后果。
Lex Fridman (00:20.640)
The following is a conversation with Magat Wade,
以下是与马加特·韦德的对话，
Magatte Wade (00:23.560)
an entrepreneur who's passionate
一位充满激情的企业家
Lex Fridman (00:25.920)
about creating positive change in Africa
关于在非洲创造积极的变化
Magatte Wade (00:28.120)
through economic empowerment.
通过经济赋权。
Lex Fridman (00:31.000)
This is the Lex Friedman Podcast.
这是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客。
Magatte Wade (00:33.000)
To support it, please check out our sponsors
为了支持它，请查看我们的赞助商
Lex Fridman (00:34.880)
in the description.
在描述中。
Lex Fridman (00:36.120)
And now, dear friends, here's Magat Wade.
现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是马加特·韦德。
Lex Fridman (00:40.520)
You were born in Senegal.
你出生在塞内加尔。
Magatte Wade (00:42.940)
You have lived and traveled across the world.
您曾在世界各地生活和旅行。
Lex Fridman (00:45.480)
So let me ask you, what is the soul of Senegal?
那么我问你，塞内加尔的灵魂是什么？
Magatte Wade (00:48.360)
Like, its people, its culture, its history.
比如它的人民、它的文化、它的历史。
Lex Fridman (00:51.840)
Can you try to sneak up on telling us
你能偷偷告诉我们吗
Lex Fridman (00:55.880)
what is the spirit of its people?
其人民的精神是什么？
Lex Fridman (00:58.160)
Taranga, Taranga.
Magatte Wade (01:00.720)
Taranga, it's a Wolof word.
Lex Fridman (01:02.840)
Wolof is the main indigenous language of Senegal
Lex Fridman (01:05.680)
and it means hospitality.
Lex Fridman (01:07.840)
That is what us, the people of Senegal, are known for.
Lex Fridman (01:11.560)
And it transpires in everything that we do,
Lex Fridman (01:15.360)
everything that we say.
Magatte Wade (01:16.960)
It's a place where, I guess with hospitality,
Lex Fridman (01:19.880)
goes this concept of warmth.
Lex Fridman (01:21.700)
So we are a very warm people.
Lex Fridman (01:25.320)
So in a nutshell, that's us.
Magatte Wade (01:26.440)
That's us, the place where you come
Lex Fridman (01:28.600)
and everybody will just embrace you,
Magatte Wade (01:31.440)
make you feel very comfortable,
Lex Fridman (01:32.920)
make you feel like you're the only person in the world
Lex Fridman (01:35.320)
and that we've been waiting for you our whole life, right?
Lex Fridman (01:37.720)
So that's my country.
Lex Fridman (01:39.360)
So that's for people in Senegal, people in Africa,
Lex Fridman (01:43.160)
or also people across the world,
Magatte Wade (01:45.720)
weird strangers from all walks of life.
Lex Fridman (01:47.680)
So hospitality towards everyone.
Magatte Wade (01:49.360)
For everyone, for everyone.
Lex Fridman (01:51.320)
Especially towards the foreigner
Magatte Wade (01:54.280)
because it's very ingrained in us,
Lex Fridman (01:57.920)
this understanding that especially the foreigner,
Magatte Wade (02:00.900)
the foreigner is called foreigner
Lex Fridman (02:01.960)
because the foreigner is coming from somewhere else.
Lex Fridman (02:03.780)
So if someone has taken the time and the energy,
Lex Fridman (02:07.080)
whether in a forced manner or because it's a choice
Magatte Wade (02:11.200)
to travel so far to come to a place that's not theirs,
Lex Fridman (02:14.880)
to start where that's where the foreigners again,
Magatte Wade (02:17.600)
then it is your duty to welcome them,
Lex Fridman (02:20.640)
to be uber welcoming to them.
Lex Fridman (02:23.080)
So there's not a fear of the foreigner.
Lex Fridman (02:24.960)
There's not a suspicion of the foreigner.
Magatte Wade (02:26.680)
No, no, no.
Lex Fridman (02:28.400)
And I think this goes with the other way around.
Magatte Wade (02:31.320)
Maybe it has to do with just,
Lex Fridman (02:34.080)
you know, when you feel good about yourself,
Magatte Wade (02:36.080)
when you're very grounded yourself,
Lex Fridman (02:37.760)
it's very easy to open yourself to others.
Lex Fridman (02:39.880)
And I'm wondering if that's not, you know,
Lex Fridman (02:42.880)
the other side of the equation in a way.
Lex Fridman (02:45.580)
So no, we don't have a fear towards a foreigner.
Lex Fridman (02:49.560)
That's just no.
Magatte Wade (02:50.400)
When you have a pride of your culture,
Lex Fridman (02:53.880)
pride of your own people, it's easier to sort of embrace.
Magatte Wade (02:56.840)
I mean, it's interesting how these kind of cultures emerge
Lex Fridman (02:59.120)
because, you know, the Slavic countries
Magatte Wade (03:02.720)
are sometimes colder.
Lex Fridman (03:05.460)
They're slower to trust others.
Magatte Wade (03:07.840)
We're now here in Austin, Texas.
Lex Fridman (03:09.360)
One of the reasons I fell in love with this place
Magatte Wade (03:11.160)
when I showed up is there's that same hospitality
Lex Fridman (03:13.860)
as compared to other cities I've lived in,
Magatte Wade (03:17.240)
sort of Boston, Philadelphia, San Francisco.
Lex Fridman (03:22.000)
There's a hesitation to open up, to be fragile,
Magatte Wade (03:26.560)
to be caring before understanding
Lex Fridman (03:31.280)
what I can gain from you kind of calculation.
Magatte Wade (03:34.920)
It's really interesting.
Lex Fridman (03:35.760)
And I wonder how those kinds of dynamics emerge
Magatte Wade (03:39.200)
because they're certainly parts of the world.
Lex Fridman (03:41.820)
Like Austin is one of them
Magatte Wade (03:43.240)
where you just feel the kindness,
Lex Fridman (03:45.040)
just radiate without knowing kindness from strangers.
Magatte Wade (03:49.640)
You know, if I were to advance one thing,
Lex Fridman (03:52.760)
and I had the same experience
Magatte Wade (03:56.360)
after having lived in San Francisco first,
Lex Fridman (03:59.520)
then we went to New York, then we came to Austin.
Lex Fridman (04:02.600)
And when we came to Austin, I felt,
Lex Fridman (04:04.300)
it took me a while to put my finger on it,
Lex Fridman (04:06.360)
but what I found in Austin, people just hang.
Lex Fridman (04:10.480)
People, right?
Magatte Wade (04:11.940)
They're real.
Lex Fridman (04:13.000)
They're real.
Lex Fridman (04:13.840)
And like what you were saying, I feel like
Lex Fridman (04:15.400)
in these other places, people are,
Magatte Wade (04:18.640)
it's a destination for people who want to come and perform.
Lex Fridman (04:21.320)
I think maybe the early San Francisco people,
Magatte Wade (04:24.440)
it was different for them.
Lex Fridman (04:26.960)
But later as prosperity starts to come in
Lex Fridman (04:30.520)
and success comes in, then you attract a different breed.
Lex Fridman (04:34.040)
At first, we're the people who made it,
Magatte Wade (04:36.160)
who made this place be what it is.
Lex Fridman (04:38.920)
And then it attracts all the bling followers
Lex Fridman (04:41.960)
and the bling attracted people.
Lex Fridman (04:43.800)
And when those people show up,
Magatte Wade (04:45.120)
it's time for all of us to get out.
Lex Fridman (04:47.240)
And that's one of my worries about Austin too.
Lex Fridman (04:49.200)
And I guess I'm one of, I count myself in it,
Lex Fridman (04:51.400)
but you know, because we're also new arrivees,
Magatte Wade (04:54.840)
always been furious now.
Lex Fridman (04:56.200)
But how are we gonna protect this place?
Magatte Wade (04:58.920)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (05:00.200)
Yeah, these are, you know, the best possible version
Magatte Wade (05:02.820)
of the Austin history.
Lex Fridman (05:04.300)
This is the early days of Silicon Valley in Austin.
Lex Fridman (05:07.120)
And so you get a chance to build
Lex Fridman (05:09.400)
on top of this culture that's already been here
Magatte Wade (05:12.940)
of the weirdos, the artists, the sort of the characters,
Lex Fridman (05:18.760)
but also the general kindness and love
Magatte Wade (05:21.880)
that just permeates the whole place,
Lex Fridman (05:23.100)
build on top of that entrepreneurial spirit.
Lex Fridman (05:27.500)
So like the tech companies, new startups,
Lex Fridman (05:30.600)
all that kind of stuff.
Lex Fridman (05:31.760)
And then you get a chance to build totally new ideas,
Lex Fridman (05:35.440)
totally revolutionary ideas and make them a reality
Lex Fridman (05:38.160)
and dream big and build it here.
Lex Fridman (05:40.280)
I think Elon represents that with all the people
Magatte Wade (05:44.400)
that kind of try to do the cutting edge stuff
Lex Fridman (05:50.120)
they're doing at Tesla and SpaceX.
Lex Fridman (05:52.460)
But there's a bunch of other companies,
Lex Fridman (05:53.600)
they're just like coming up.
Magatte Wade (05:54.980)
I get to talk to a bunch of tech people
Lex Fridman (05:56.480)
and they're just incredible.
Magatte Wade (05:58.120)
Versus San Francisco, there's a cynicism a bit.
Lex Fridman (06:03.400)
And also some of the interaction with strangers,
Magatte Wade (06:06.420)
there's always a bit of a calculation,
Lex Fridman (06:08.200)
like how good is this going to be for my career?
Magatte Wade (06:11.160)
Or how can, yeah.
Lex Fridman (06:12.080)
How can hanging out with this person can advance me?
Magatte Wade (06:14.720)
You go to a party, they're seizing up.
Lex Fridman (06:18.280)
It's like, I'm not gonna talk to so and so
Magatte Wade (06:19.680)
because that's not gonna advance me.
Lex Fridman (06:21.200)
Who's gonna advance me next?
Lex Fridman (06:22.520)
And so this is what I would not wanna see here in Austin.
Lex Fridman (06:27.200)
And I think maybe there's one way to try to,
Magatte Wade (06:30.120)
I really would like to see Austin
Lex Fridman (06:31.720)
not go the way San Francisco did
Lex Fridman (06:33.720)
and other towns before.
Lex Fridman (06:34.560)
I like how you pronounce San Francisco with a French accent.
Lex Fridman (06:36.840)
San Francisco?
Lex Fridman (06:37.680)
Yeah, that's great.
Magatte Wade (06:39.880)
That's the one word you go with a French accent.
Lex Fridman (06:42.080)
You have to.
Magatte Wade (06:42.920)
It sounds beautiful.
Lex Fridman (06:43.740)
San Francisco.
Magatte Wade (06:44.580)
San Francisco.
Lex Fridman (06:45.760)
But you know, so now that you find that cute,
Magatte Wade (06:50.320)
you're gonna have to forgive me when I mess up my English
Lex Fridman (06:53.120)
because English is not my first language.
Lex Fridman (06:55.240)
So I always try to make sure people know that.
Lex Fridman (06:58.160)
But you know Lex, this is why I am very interested
Magatte Wade (07:01.040)
in what some folks here are working on.
Lex Fridman (07:03.760)
And I'm just gonna be very selfish here
Magatte Wade (07:05.440)
because I wanna help her with what she's doing.
Lex Fridman (07:07.880)
It's someone like, you know, Nicole Nodzak and her project,
Magatte Wade (07:11.680)
you know, with the housing project that they have right now,
Lex Fridman (07:14.500)
making sure that Austin remains a town
Magatte Wade (07:16.720)
that's affordable for people of all walks of lives.
Lex Fridman (07:20.400)
If we can accomplish making sure that all walks of lives,
Magatte Wade (07:24.060)
doesn't matter how little or big you're making money wise,
Lex Fridman (07:28.260)
that you can stay in this town
Lex Fridman (07:29.560)
so the diversity at that level can remain,
Lex Fridman (07:32.000)
then I think Austin stands a chance to really show the world
Lex Fridman (07:34.960)
how to do things differently.
Lex Fridman (07:36.280)
And what I love about, you know, her initiative
Magatte Wade (07:38.600)
is just how they're really trying, you know,
Lex Fridman (07:42.800)
to again work on keeping affordability down for most people.
Magatte Wade (07:46.920)
I think it's important to,
Lex Fridman (07:48.840)
because it seems like it matters to you,
Magatte Wade (07:50.360)
I know that it matters to me.
Lex Fridman (07:51.840)
I absolutely would not wanna see Austin go away
Magatte Wade (07:55.320)
that San Francisco did.
Lex Fridman (07:56.160)
And I think the key to that is making sure
Magatte Wade (07:58.560)
that true diversity,
Lex Fridman (07:59.480)
not like the fluff, fluff crap diversity we're hearing over there.
Lex Fridman (08:02.240)
And that's another thing by the way,
Lex Fridman (08:03.600)
because San Francisco likes to pride itself in,
Magatte Wade (08:05.720)
oh, you know, we are so into diversity,
Lex Fridman (08:09.200)
but I'm like, if diversity for you means gender,
Magatte Wade (08:13.040)
difference of gender, skin color, you know,
Lex Fridman (08:16.560)
maybe the different accents we have,
Lex Fridman (08:18.120)
and you think check, check, check, check, check,
Lex Fridman (08:19.760)
I'm like, it's not enough.
Lex Fridman (08:21.720)
Can we also add diversity of thoughts?
Lex Fridman (08:24.160)
And that's the other problem I have with that place,
Lex Fridman (08:26.040)
you know?
Lex Fridman (08:26.880)
And I know some folks who are scared of saying much
Magatte Wade (08:29.920)
around people, that's also another thing.
Lex Fridman (08:31.960)
So not only they're sizing you up,
Lex Fridman (08:33.680)
but everybody's also, there is this invisible,
Lex Fridman (08:36.720)
this invisible, how should I say this?
Magatte Wade (08:40.520)
There's this invisible agreement
Lex Fridman (08:43.280)
that they all seem to have to stay on script.
Magatte Wade (08:47.080)
Yeah, there's a feeling like you're following
Lex Fridman (08:48.520)
a certain kind of script that's very kind of shallow.
Lex Fridman (08:51.640)
And there is a bit of a categorization going on,
Lex Fridman (08:54.160)
which category do you belong to?
Lex Fridman (08:55.720)
And let's put this into a simple math equation,
Lex Fridman (08:58.720)
what comes out, as opposed to just the free, open embrace
Magatte Wade (09:03.600)
of people, the weirdos, the characters, the interesting,
Lex Fridman (09:06.840)
the full, deep sense of diversity.
Magatte Wade (09:09.800)
Not just ideas, but backgrounds, and rich and poor.
Lex Fridman (09:16.200)
Artists, engineers.
Magatte Wade (09:17.400)
High school dropouts, PhDs, all of this.
Lex Fridman (09:20.520)
Yes, yes, that's what makes for a rich society
Magatte Wade (09:24.520)
if it's gonna get ahead.
Lex Fridman (09:25.760)
I'm glad you mentioned Nicole's efforts,
Magatte Wade (09:27.520)
I know she really is passionate about.
Lex Fridman (09:30.800)
I don't know how complicated that work is,
Magatte Wade (09:32.720)
because there's probably a big force trying to increase
Lex Fridman (09:40.080)
how much it costs to live in Austin.
Magatte Wade (09:42.960)
I don't know how you resist that.
Lex Fridman (09:45.160)
Whenever I go to New York City,
Magatte Wade (09:47.040)
just the fact that there's a giant park in the middle of it,
Lex Fridman (09:50.720)
I wonder, how did they pull this off?
Magatte Wade (09:53.240)
This is amazing.
Lex Fridman (09:54.680)
It's like to resist the force of the increasing price
Magatte Wade (09:59.240)
of the land, and still to protect this idea
Lex Fridman (10:02.200)
of having a park.
Lex Fridman (10:05.040)
And then in the same way, protecting the ability
Lex Fridman (10:08.560)
for people from all walks of life to live
Magatte Wade (10:10.360)
in the center of the city, to live around the city,
Lex Fridman (10:13.240)
to chase a dream when they don't get any money
Magatte Wade (10:16.880)
in their pocket.
Lex Fridman (10:17.720)
Absolutely.
Magatte Wade (10:18.560)
I don't know how you do that.
Lex Fridman (10:19.400)
It's partly political, probably, regulation,
Magatte Wade (10:22.280)
all that kind of stuff.
Lex Fridman (10:23.120)
A lot of it has to do with regulations.
Lex Fridman (10:25.800)
And this is where her and I also very much see eye to eye
Lex Fridman (10:31.120)
in terms of the free markets and also prosperity building,
Magatte Wade (10:35.560)
because it's always the same problems most of the time,
Lex Fridman (10:38.840)
most places.
Magatte Wade (10:40.200)
Here, what you have is some people in the name of,
Lex Fridman (10:43.240)
we gotta stand for, and I don't like to use this word,
Lex Fridman (10:47.440)
but maybe you help me find a better one,
Lex Fridman (10:49.680)
but at least that's a word that people can understand.
Magatte Wade (10:51.840)
We gotta stand for the lesser fortunate among us.
Lex Fridman (10:54.440)
Some people would call them, maybe oftentimes use the word,
Magatte Wade (10:57.040)
maybe the underdogs, whatever it is.
Lex Fridman (10:58.360)
I will just say maybe the lesser fortunate among us, right?
Magatte Wade (11:02.440)
In the name of standing up for them,
Lex Fridman (11:04.280)
you're promoting policies that are actually gonna backfire
Lex Fridman (11:07.640)
and where they end up being the first ones
Lex Fridman (11:10.000)
to suffer from it.
Lex Fridman (11:11.080)
So let's take this whole housing issue
Lex Fridman (11:14.040)
that Nicole and her team are working on.
Magatte Wade (11:17.360)
We find that oftentimes the cost at the end of the day,
Lex Fridman (11:20.320)
it's the good old supply and demand equation.
Magatte Wade (11:26.160)
If you're gonna make it so hard
Lex Fridman (11:29.280)
that the supply level of housing remains
Magatte Wade (11:33.200)
below a certain threshold,
Lex Fridman (11:34.960)
remains lower than the demand of people who need,
Magatte Wade (11:38.560)
especially affordable housing, housing altogether,
Lex Fridman (11:41.480)
what's gonna happen is scarcity, prices go up,
Lex Fridman (11:45.600)
and who gets kicked out first?
Lex Fridman (11:47.360)
The lesser fortunate among us.
Lex Fridman (11:49.360)
And so, but I find that oftentimes people
Lex Fridman (11:52.480)
in the name of We Care don't engage their mind.
Lex Fridman (11:55.400)
And a friend of mine said this, and he said it so well.
Lex Fridman (11:57.840)
He said, having a heart for the poor, that's easy.
Magatte Wade (12:03.360)
Having a mind for the poor, that's the challenge.
Lex Fridman (12:06.200)
And oftentimes we all have a heart for the poor.
Lex Fridman (12:09.920)
But when it comes then to, then what do we do
Lex Fridman (12:13.200)
to have a real impact on making sure
Magatte Wade (12:17.000)
that people get a chance at going up,
Lex Fridman (12:20.800)
then that's where everything starts falling apart.
Lex Fridman (12:23.280)
And then you have people who,
Lex Fridman (12:25.640)
then they start pushing for policies, housing policies,
Magatte Wade (12:28.480)
making it super hard for you to even renovate
Lex Fridman (12:30.760)
or add one more store to your home or anything like that.
Magatte Wade (12:33.720)
By doing that, you're messing up with the supply,
Lex Fridman (12:36.000)
with the supply of housing.
Lex Fridman (12:39.120)
And therefore the people who can't afford,
Lex Fridman (12:43.000)
people get priced out of the market.
Lex Fridman (12:45.080)
And so what people like Nicole are doing
Lex Fridman (12:47.080)
are going back to where all of this is taking place
Lex Fridman (12:49.280)
and they're going back to the regulation side.
Lex Fridman (12:51.200)
And just like, I'm sure we'll talk about it here,
Lex Fridman (12:53.360)
but people wonder today, why is Africa
Lex Fridman (12:56.120)
the poorest region in the world?
Magatte Wade (12:57.920)
We go back to the same culprit.
Lex Fridman (12:59.960)
Bad laws and tons of senseless regulations.
Magatte Wade (13:04.560)
If you make it so hard that in Berkeley,
Lex Fridman (13:06.920)
for someone to build one more store to their home,
Magatte Wade (13:09.320)
which means maybe one more unit
Lex Fridman (13:11.800)
that could be rented out to someone.
Lex Fridman (13:13.360)
And if many more people do that,
Lex Fridman (13:14.560)
then you have a much bigger supply,
Magatte Wade (13:16.520)
which means the prices will go down,
Lex Fridman (13:18.240)
which means more people have access and among them,
Magatte Wade (13:20.680)
especially the lesser fortunate among us,
Lex Fridman (13:22.880)
then we're starting to see a winning proposal, aren't we?
Lex Fridman (13:25.480)
But instead, if you go the other way around,
Lex Fridman (13:27.360)
then all of a sudden you're pricing them out of the market.
Magatte Wade (13:29.320)
Same thing was done with us.
Lex Fridman (13:30.320)
So oftentimes when I see problems of this nature,
Magatte Wade (13:33.480)
you can betcha that regulations and census laws
Lex Fridman (13:37.040)
are the heart of it.
Lex Fridman (13:37.880)
And that's what they're tackling.
Lex Fridman (13:39.480)
It's not popular, it's not fun.
Lex Fridman (13:41.640)
And people tend to not even understand
Lex Fridman (13:43.280)
where you're coming from.
Lex Fridman (13:44.440)
But this is a problem we have
Lex Fridman (13:45.480)
with people not understanding economic econ 101.
Magatte Wade (13:48.800)
Well, so it's the regulation and the laws
Lex Fridman (13:50.440)
and the system that props them up
Lex Fridman (13:51.760)
and increases the span of those laws.
Lex Fridman (13:53.840)
And we'll talk about that,
Magatte Wade (13:55.160)
the fascinating way those kinds of things develop
Lex Fridman (13:57.880)
when it works, when it doesn't.
Magatte Wade (13:59.680)
Let me sort of step back
Lex Fridman (14:01.480)
and ask you a question about Africa.
Magatte Wade (14:03.160)
In the West, in many places in the world,
Lex Fridman (14:06.920)
Africa is almost talked about like it's one country,
Magatte Wade (14:10.600)
like it's one place.
Lex Fridman (14:12.200)
So in what ways is Africa one community?
Lex Fridman (14:16.640)
And in what ways is it many, many, many communities?
Lex Fridman (14:20.040)
Just from your perspective from in Senegal and beyond.
Magatte Wade (14:24.600)
Right.
Lex Fridman (14:25.880)
So at the most basic of what makes us one
Magatte Wade (14:30.880)
goes back to even what makes you African.
Lex Fridman (14:33.240)
You are African, I'm African.
Magatte Wade (14:34.880)
We're one big family.
Lex Fridman (14:36.440)
Africa is very much at the end of the day,
Magatte Wade (14:38.240)
the foundation and the birth of the human race.
Lex Fridman (14:44.280)
So from that standpoint, at the most basic level,
Magatte Wade (14:47.600)
we're all Africans.
Lex Fridman (14:48.440)
Where this whole thing started.
Magatte Wade (14:50.040)
Exactly, exactly.
Lex Fridman (14:51.640)
Where this whole thing started
Lex Fridman (14:53.160)
and how at some point humanity was hanging
Lex Fridman (14:56.600)
by its fingernails.
Magatte Wade (14:57.600)
Only 2000 of us were left on this earth.
Lex Fridman (14:59.880)
And eventually we started, we went for survival.
Lex Fridman (15:02.200)
And that's how we started to spread around
Lex Fridman (15:04.280)
and some going up north, some going this way, that way.
Lex Fridman (15:07.360)
And as you're traveling to different places
Lex Fridman (15:09.680)
then features start to change to adapt
Lex Fridman (15:11.920)
to where you are, right?
Lex Fridman (15:13.640)
So hair gets lighter for some people,
Magatte Wade (15:16.160)
eyes get different shape for others to adjust
Lex Fridman (15:19.160)
to our new natural habitat.
Magatte Wade (15:21.280)
You know, the genomics program,
Lex Fridman (15:22.720)
I think at the National Geographic did that so well
Magatte Wade (15:26.960)
for people who are interested in going back
Lex Fridman (15:28.200)
to that work with Spencer Wells and such.
Lex Fridman (15:30.320)
But yeah, so at the very basic, most basic level,
Lex Fridman (15:34.040)
that's what unites us all first of all.
Lex Fridman (15:37.040)
And then I would say that the continent, especially here
Lex Fridman (15:41.560)
I will group it into black Africa, you know, black Africa.
Magatte Wade (15:47.480)
Unfortunately our common stories, you know,
Lex Fridman (15:50.600)
of having gone through this terrible, horrible period
Magatte Wade (15:54.240)
of around the same time the whole continent being,
Lex Fridman (15:56.720)
you know, enslaved and colonized.
Lex Fridman (15:58.480)
So that in a way forms, not that we were ever
Lex Fridman (16:02.200)
the first people or only people ever, you know,
Magatte Wade (16:05.120)
enslaved in this world.
Lex Fridman (16:06.320)
As a matter of fact, I mean, the word slaves comes
Magatte Wade (16:09.240)
from esclav, you know, esclav, slave, slavs, les slavs,
Lex Fridman (16:13.320)
right, from the Eastern block.
Lex Fridman (16:15.040)
So the first slaves were actually people looking
Lex Fridman (16:17.000)
more like you than looking like me, right?
Magatte Wade (16:19.360)
So, but we don't necessarily remember all of that
Lex Fridman (16:22.560)
because in our human psyche, the closest to us in history
Magatte Wade (16:28.160)
of a big mass of people being enslaved is African people.
Lex Fridman (16:32.640)
We were the last, you know, group like that.
Magatte Wade (16:35.760)
You know, the pain of World War I and World War II
Lex Fridman (16:39.080)
permeates Europe, but it certainly does
Magatte Wade (16:43.720)
for the former Soviet Union, the countries
Lex Fridman (16:46.360)
that made up the former Soviet Union.
Magatte Wade (16:48.200)
Does in the same way, the pain of slavery
Lex Fridman (16:56.760)
and empires using Africa, does that permeate the culture?
Lex Fridman (17:01.240)
Is there still echoes of that?
Lex Fridman (17:02.960)
In a way, yes, especially the fact that, you know,
Magatte Wade (17:06.440)
in many different places, whether it's Ghana
Lex Fridman (17:10.280)
or my country or Benin, where you have these places
Magatte Wade (17:15.080)
that we call the door of no return or the places
Lex Fridman (17:17.640)
of no return, which this was the last place
Magatte Wade (17:22.440)
where the slaves were standing or, you know,
Lex Fridman (17:25.800)
this is in Senegal, we call it the door of no return.
Magatte Wade (17:29.040)
There is this one door, you're there in the slave house.
Lex Fridman (17:31.680)
And once they go, they go, that's it.
Magatte Wade (17:34.600)
That's gonna be the last time they see back home.
Lex Fridman (17:38.600)
So, you know, those, of course, of course,
Magatte Wade (17:43.360)
it creates for a common lived experience,
Lex Fridman (17:48.680)
which becomes a common lived history.
Lex Fridman (17:54.720)
And of course, it's gonna tire us up.
Lex Fridman (17:56.760)
Is there a resentment, because you mentioned hospitality,
Magatte Wade (18:00.480)
is there a kind of a resentment of the foreigner
Lex Fridman (18:03.520)
that there's a rich, vibrant land?
Magatte Wade (18:07.040)
There's many resources, there's powerful cultures.
Lex Fridman (18:10.480)
Are they just going to show up and use us?
Magatte Wade (18:14.000)
That's a way to see geopolitics in this modern world.
Lex Fridman (18:16.960)
This is, okay, so where it plays very differently is,
Lex Fridman (18:19.800)
so if you came to Senegal today,
Lex Fridman (18:21.360)
there is not really a problem at that level.
Magatte Wade (18:23.960)
Where people's resentment start to come from is,
Lex Fridman (18:28.280)
of course, when bad behavior shows up,
Magatte Wade (18:31.160)
meaning like you have so many white people who can show up
Lex Fridman (18:33.840)
and just in the attitude,
Lex Fridman (18:35.320)
they have an entitlement attitude, right?
Lex Fridman (18:38.640)
And they think that in a way, we're all still servants.
Magatte Wade (18:43.240)
Some people in your face, some people more,
Lex Fridman (18:46.080)
but that can cause some little resentment,
Lex Fridman (18:48.320)
but where really the resentment is.
Lex Fridman (18:51.320)
And that can, the entitlement can take different forms,
Magatte Wade (18:53.520)
like even pity.
Lex Fridman (18:55.160)
Yes, don't even get me going on that one.
Magatte Wade (18:57.440)
I was trying to be polite today.
Lex Fridman (18:59.120)
So just don't, Lex, do not.
Magatte Wade (19:01.840)
You know, sometimes I tell myself,
Lex Fridman (19:03.080)
my God, today you're going to be all composed.
Magatte Wade (19:04.760)
You know, Lex is all composed.
Lex Fridman (19:06.720)
So don't go there and make a fool of yourself.
Magatte Wade (19:08.280)
Just behave.
Lex Fridman (19:09.320)
But if you get me on some grounds,
Magatte Wade (19:12.400)
that's when it's all going to go to hell.
Lex Fridman (19:15.120)
So yeah, let's move beyond that too.
Lex Fridman (19:17.840)
So resentment, there's a dance
Lex Fridman (19:20.080)
between hospitality and resentment.
Lex Fridman (19:21.440)
And resentment.
Lex Fridman (19:22.400)
So when you come in, you're you, you live your life.
Magatte Wade (19:25.240)
You're just a normal human being
Lex Fridman (19:26.840)
and you treat me decently
Magatte Wade (19:27.880)
like you would treat a friend, normal people.
Lex Fridman (19:30.120)
I have no problem with you.
Magatte Wade (19:31.200)
I'm not going to come back and be like,
Lex Fridman (19:32.280)
well, you and your ancestors have enslaved me.
Magatte Wade (19:35.680)
You, you're not going to see that stuff.
Lex Fridman (19:38.240)
Sometimes I'm in this country where I feel like that's,
Magatte Wade (19:40.520)
you know, it might look like that,
Lex Fridman (19:42.560)
but we in Africa don't do that.
Magatte Wade (19:45.560)
Now, if you come, you have this nasty attitude.
Lex Fridman (19:48.640)
You think you're still serving servants around.
Magatte Wade (19:50.240)
Well, you can have a problem with someone like me.
Lex Fridman (19:52.000)
I might even grab you by the back of your neck
Magatte Wade (19:54.000)
and, you know, take you back to the airport.
Lex Fridman (19:56.040)
That's when you're lucky.
Magatte Wade (19:58.560)
I'll be you very quickly.
Lex Fridman (19:59.960)
Exactly.
Lex Fridman (1:00:02.280)
and all those skincare products.
Lex Fridman (1:00:06.440)
Some ingredients I'm able to find in the country
Magatte Wade (1:00:09.080)
at the standard that I need in order to remain competitive.
Lex Fridman (1:00:13.440)
Because for example, our products are sold
Magatte Wade (1:00:14.920)
at Whole Foods Market.
Lex Fridman (1:00:16.040)
You can understand it's a pretty sophisticated
Lex Fridman (1:00:18.440)
and really, they don't just put anybody on the shelves.
Lex Fridman (1:00:22.520)
But the thing is, it means that on the other end,
Magatte Wade (1:00:25.960)
my inputs has to be right.
Lex Fridman (1:00:28.960)
So out of those, some, we have seven ingredients,
Magatte Wade (1:00:32.920)
seven items that need to come from abroad
Lex Fridman (1:00:36.440)
to go into the making of this product.
Magatte Wade (1:00:38.560)
Some packaging and some raw material.
Lex Fridman (1:00:42.200)
But guess what, Lex, for five of them,
Magatte Wade (1:00:45.960)
I am paying a 40% tariff
Lex Fridman (1:00:48.760)
and for the other two, almost 70% tariff.
Magatte Wade (1:00:51.440)
That I call senseless laws.
Lex Fridman (1:00:54.800)
These tariffs are senseless.
Magatte Wade (1:00:57.920)
Yeah, corruption is just a symptom.
Lex Fridman (1:00:59.960)
They reveal that something was broken about the laws.
Lex Fridman (1:01:02.960)
And the laws are, so taxation,
Lex Fridman (1:01:08.040)
this kind of restricting laws,
Magatte Wade (1:01:10.720)
like laws that slow down the entrepreneurial momentum.
Lex Fridman (1:01:14.520)
They do, they do.
Magatte Wade (1:01:15.960)
Because in this case, when my product comes,
Lex Fridman (1:01:19.240)
what do people have to do?
Magatte Wade (1:01:21.600)
Because every time, if you add 40%,
Lex Fridman (1:01:25.400)
you're basically on the other end.
Lex Fridman (1:01:26.680)
So every time you add,
Lex Fridman (1:01:28.400)
if let's say my product normally costs a dollar
Lex Fridman (1:01:31.640)
and with your 40%, by the time I'm done,
Lex Fridman (1:01:33.880)
I had to pay, now it's costing me 140.
Magatte Wade (1:01:36.640)
By the time it arrives in my warehouse,
Lex Fridman (1:01:39.000)
in my manufacturing facility, it's now at 140
Magatte Wade (1:01:42.520)
because of a tariff I left behind.
Lex Fridman (1:01:44.800)
That 40% you added to it,
Lex Fridman (1:01:47.200)
do you know how much it's gonna add to my final cost
Lex Fridman (1:01:49.960)
that once the product is finished,
Lex Fridman (1:01:51.160)
I have to sell it to the customer?
Lex Fridman (1:01:53.160)
I have to sell it for $1.60 more because of that 40 cents
Magatte Wade (1:01:57.240)
extra you took from me.
Lex Fridman (1:01:58.920)
In order for me at the end of the day
Magatte Wade (1:02:00.880)
to have some type of profits,
Lex Fridman (1:02:02.520)
because profits at the end of the day
Magatte Wade (1:02:05.920)
is the blood of a business.
Lex Fridman (1:02:08.280)
There are two people are misguided.
Magatte Wade (1:02:09.960)
They say, oh, you dirty, greedy business people.
Lex Fridman (1:02:13.800)
And it's all about profit, profit, profit, profit.
Magatte Wade (1:02:17.840)
You know, I belong to this organization called,
Lex Fridman (1:02:20.560)
I'm a board member on the conscious capitalism.
Magatte Wade (1:02:23.080)
It is the largest organization of purpose driven
Lex Fridman (1:02:27.760)
businesses and entrepreneurs.
Magatte Wade (1:02:29.760)
The type of people I told you about,
Lex Fridman (1:02:31.080)
we've started our businesses because we see something
Magatte Wade (1:02:34.160)
that needs to be taken care of in society.
Lex Fridman (1:02:36.640)
Whole Foods Market is one of them.
Magatte Wade (1:02:38.600)
The Container Store, you know,
Lex Fridman (1:02:40.600)
all of these companies that are beloved in the US
Magatte Wade (1:02:43.080)
that you can hear of.
Lex Fridman (1:02:44.800)
We believe that the end goal of business is purpose.
Lex Fridman (1:02:49.800)
But in order to do purpose,
Lex Fridman (1:02:52.120)
you have to have profits to stay alive.
Lex Fridman (1:02:57.280)
And the best way for people to think of profits
Lex Fridman (1:02:59.840)
so that they're not all twisted about it.
Lex Fridman (1:03:02.560)
Lex, if I asked you, what's your goal in the world?
Lex Fridman (1:03:07.040)
You're probably gonna tell me your dream.
Magatte Wade (1:03:09.520)
You're gonna talk to me about what you're doing right now
Lex Fridman (1:03:11.880)
and how you want to be uniting,
Magatte Wade (1:03:13.840)
or you want a more harmonious world.
Lex Fridman (1:03:15.240)
You want human flourishing.
Magatte Wade (1:03:16.920)
That's what you're working towards.
Lex Fridman (1:03:18.720)
That's what you say to me.
Magatte Wade (1:03:20.080)
You're not gonna say, well, my biggest goal in the world
Lex Fridman (1:03:23.040)
is to produce as many red blood cells as I can.
Magatte Wade (1:03:25.720)
Except you need to produce those, otherwise no Lex.
Lex Fridman (1:03:28.840)
And if no Lex, no one working.
Magatte Wade (1:03:31.960)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:03:32.800)
You know what I mean?
Magatte Wade (1:03:33.640)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:03:34.480)
So that's how people need to stop
Magatte Wade (1:03:35.800)
with this whole profit, non profit.
Lex Fridman (1:03:37.800)
Do we have some psychopaths among us?
Magatte Wade (1:03:40.400)
Yeah, one person of us in this world are psychopaths
Lex Fridman (1:03:42.720)
in every field, anywhere you look.
Lex Fridman (1:03:45.200)
And surely you'll find that in the entrepreneurial field.
Lex Fridman (1:03:48.480)
Entrepreneurs world as well.
Magatte Wade (1:03:50.080)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:03:50.920)
So we have one person of us who are psychopath for sure.
Lex Fridman (1:03:53.800)
But do they define the rest of us?
Lex Fridman (1:03:55.240)
Absolutely not.
Lex Fridman (1:03:56.080)
And thankfully not.
Lex Fridman (1:03:57.320)
So let's just be clear on that.
Lex Fridman (1:03:59.920)
So here, you know, you charge me 40% tariff,
Lex Fridman (1:04:04.120)
which is outrageous.
Magatte Wade (1:04:05.880)
Then you're forcing me to sell it for $1.60 more
Lex Fridman (1:04:09.080)
than my competitor who does not have to go
Magatte Wade (1:04:10.800)
through that nonsense because she's an American woman
Lex Fridman (1:04:12.920)
who is operating in America.
Lex Fridman (1:04:14.080)
And she doesn't have that nonsense put on her.
Lex Fridman (1:04:16.200)
So now I'm on this market competing against this woman
Magatte Wade (1:04:18.720)
eye to eye.
Lex Fridman (1:04:20.320)
So if we're selling the same value product,
Magatte Wade (1:04:23.640)
mine costs $1.60 more simply because of some stupid rules
Lex Fridman (1:04:27.000)
from back home, then guess who is going to stay in business
Lex Fridman (1:04:29.680)
and who doesn't?
Lex Fridman (1:04:31.480)
See, they want to talk about equality.
Magatte Wade (1:04:33.680)
That's the type of equality I want to see.
Lex Fridman (1:04:35.680)
The playing field has to be leveled.
Magatte Wade (1:04:39.120)
Told you English is my fourth language.
Lex Fridman (1:04:41.240)
It was two people talking between us.
Magatte Wade (1:04:44.520)
Maybe we'll have this English thing figured out.
Lex Fridman (1:04:46.480)
We'll have it figured out.
Lex Fridman (1:04:48.360)
So the idea of capitalism,
Lex Fridman (1:04:50.680)
the idea of conscious capitalism is the thing
Magatte Wade (1:04:53.520)
that in large part enables this level playing field.
Lex Fridman (1:04:57.840)
That's what we want.
Lex Fridman (1:04:58.920)
So what you're trying to say, so here,
Lex Fridman (1:05:01.080)
so when I talked about census laws, that's an example.
Lex Fridman (1:05:03.240)
So when you make the tariff so high
Lex Fridman (1:05:05.960)
that you're going to render me, you know, noncompetitive,
Magatte Wade (1:05:10.960)
then that's where, for people who might make sense,
Lex Fridman (1:05:14.360)
when the product arrives at port, they say,
Magatte Wade (1:05:17.760)
hey, I give you this.
Lex Fridman (1:05:20.400)
What I give you, maybe it's 10% of the price or 5%.
Magatte Wade (1:05:23.600)
It's surely not 40%, but you are happy with it.
Lex Fridman (1:05:27.280)
You're the government official.
Magatte Wade (1:05:28.800)
That's what we call a bribe.
Lex Fridman (1:05:30.440)
And me, I'm like, hey, I saved myself money.
Lex Fridman (1:05:33.240)
And also I saved myself time.
Lex Fridman (1:05:36.920)
But you see, if the laws where you pay 5%
Magatte Wade (1:05:40.040)
or even the 10% that I just left behind or nothing,
Lex Fridman (1:05:43.320)
you come, you pay it, you move on.
Magatte Wade (1:05:45.080)
Because who has a business of fooling around
Lex Fridman (1:05:46.880)
and staying behind?
Lex Fridman (1:05:47.720)
And no, you do that when it's actually makes sense to do that.
Lex Fridman (1:05:51.240)
So I'm not sitting here telling people
Magatte Wade (1:05:52.920)
I engage in unlawful practices in my case,
Lex Fridman (1:05:55.880)
because I'm around saying the things I'm saying right now.
Lex Fridman (1:05:58.480)
So I'm a target.
Lex Fridman (1:06:00.280)
You have to do things cleanly.
Lex Fridman (1:06:01.520)
And I believe in doing things that way.
Lex Fridman (1:06:03.120)
So what I had to do was go to the ask again mayor.
Magatte Wade (1:06:07.480)
We have a problem.
Lex Fridman (1:06:08.640)
Mayors, whenever he sees me, he's like, now what?
Lex Fridman (1:06:10.840)
So I'm like, we've got a problem.
Lex Fridman (1:06:13.760)
You're best friends now.
Lex Fridman (1:06:15.960)
So I say, now it's the customs.
Lex Fridman (1:06:18.440)
And he's like, what do you want me to do?
Lex Fridman (1:06:20.480)
I said, do you know anybody at customs?
Lex Fridman (1:06:21.880)
I need to hire up at customs,
Magatte Wade (1:06:23.080)
because I got to explain to them what's going on here.
Lex Fridman (1:06:25.960)
They all know, of course,
Lex Fridman (1:06:27.280)
but I think they're not always maybe understanding
Lex Fridman (1:06:29.960)
or maybe they understand.
Lex Fridman (1:06:30.800)
And in this case, he understood.
Lex Fridman (1:06:33.200)
So we went and he's like, yeah, I know this is not,
Magatte Wade (1:06:37.040)
this is not very, yeah, this.
Lex Fridman (1:06:39.880)
And I said, what do we do now?
Lex Fridman (1:06:41.400)
And I saw him going through binders and binders
Lex Fridman (1:06:44.240)
in his office, because he's going to try to go and look
Magatte Wade (1:06:47.600)
where in the law can we find something
Lex Fridman (1:06:51.520)
that can help me escape these rules.
Lex Fridman (1:06:55.520)
And you know, the best he found Lex was,
Lex Fridman (1:06:58.200)
oh, well here, see this one.
Magatte Wade (1:07:00.800)
If you've been in business for two years,
Lex Fridman (1:07:03.040)
then we can allow you, there's a special term for it.
Magatte Wade (1:07:06.720)
It's French, it's technical.
Lex Fridman (1:07:08.400)
We can allow you to bring your raw material,
Lex Fridman (1:07:11.760)
but you have to tell us exactly how much you're bringing.
Lex Fridman (1:07:15.200)
And it has to match your formulation because, you know,
Magatte Wade (1:07:17.240)
they don't want you to bring in more that we need
Lex Fridman (1:07:19.920)
and maybe sell some of that to the rest of the market
Lex Fridman (1:07:21.960)
and they didn't make their money on it.
Lex Fridman (1:07:24.120)
So there, it means I have to give them my recipe.
Magatte Wade (1:07:27.040)
Imagine Coca Cola being asked to give their secret sauce
Lex Fridman (1:07:31.720)
to government officials in a country
Magatte Wade (1:07:34.000)
that you can't even know what might happen,
Lex Fridman (1:07:36.320)
let alone even in business, you don't do that.
Magatte Wade (1:07:37.960)
I mean, trade secrets are trade secrets,
Lex Fridman (1:07:40.000)
but here you're asked to be putting it in front
Magatte Wade (1:07:42.480)
of some people you don't know
Lex Fridman (1:07:43.320)
where it's going to go after that.
Magatte Wade (1:07:44.600)
Because there they get to see, okay,
Lex Fridman (1:07:46.080)
her recipe calls for X amount of Candelilla Wax,
Magatte Wade (1:07:52.160)
X amount of coconut oil.
Lex Fridman (1:07:56.000)
Okay, and on top of that,
Magatte Wade (1:07:57.680)
we have to think about how much foliage might there be or not
Lex Fridman (1:08:00.360)
because again, we don't want her to buffer it over there.
Lex Fridman (1:08:03.480)
So you have to get naked in front of them
Lex Fridman (1:08:05.480)
in terms of your recipe,
Magatte Wade (1:08:06.520)
which might end up only God knows where tomorrow,
Lex Fridman (1:08:08.760)
maybe competition or maybe even them,
Magatte Wade (1:08:11.040)
they start a business and they compete with you
Lex Fridman (1:08:12.560)
because we've seen that.
Lex Fridman (1:08:13.640)
So you have to do that.
Lex Fridman (1:08:15.240)
And then each time fill out a paperwork,
Magatte Wade (1:08:18.000)
get the approval, then it can come in.
Lex Fridman (1:08:19.480)
So when it can come in, you don't have to pay the tax.
Magatte Wade (1:08:21.840)
Oh, and by the way, you have one year,
Lex Fridman (1:08:24.040)
one year to make this product and get it out.
Lex Fridman (1:08:26.920)
And all of it needs to be back out
Lex Fridman (1:08:28.760)
because if any of it stays here,
Magatte Wade (1:08:30.560)
you're going to pay the taxes that we held up.
Lex Fridman (1:08:33.200)
So you're basically forced by these census laws
Magatte Wade (1:08:38.880)
to be dishonest if you want to succeed.
Lex Fridman (1:08:41.920)
All of this is so cumbersome
Magatte Wade (1:08:43.680)
because it means more paperwork, paperwork everywhere,
Lex Fridman (1:08:47.320)
maybe having to disclose your things.
Lex Fridman (1:08:48.960)
So me, in my case, what I did is this person said,
Lex Fridman (1:08:53.800)
okay, we're going to see how we can work with you.
Lex Fridman (1:08:56.920)
But for the first two years,
Lex Fridman (1:08:58.560)
we were more or less in the gray area.
Magatte Wade (1:09:00.640)
Yeah, so even gray area is good.
Lex Fridman (1:09:04.200)
Yeah, but what does it mean?
Magatte Wade (1:09:05.800)
In a situation like that,
Lex Fridman (1:09:07.160)
whenever they want to mess with you,
Magatte Wade (1:09:09.240)
it means they can come and they will look
Lex Fridman (1:09:11.520)
and they will find something.
Lex Fridman (1:09:13.240)
So it means that every day I'm trying to do business,
Lex Fridman (1:09:15.640)
I'm running the risk of being harassed
Lex Fridman (1:09:17.920)
and or maybe even put in jail, depending on what it is.
Lex Fridman (1:09:21.360)
I mean, you're an incredible person
Magatte Wade (1:09:24.840)
because it seems like there's two ways to change this.
Lex Fridman (1:09:28.660)
One is to become president or gain power in the country
Lex Fridman (1:09:34.340)
and to try to change the laws,
Lex Fridman (1:09:37.120)
which seems really difficult to do.
Lex Fridman (1:09:39.780)
And the other way is fight through the laws
Lex Fridman (1:09:43.180)
and create the business anyway,
Magatte Wade (1:09:45.040)
build the business community and through that method,
Lex Fridman (1:09:47.880)
create a huge amount of pressure to change the laws.
Magatte Wade (1:09:50.900)
You're totally getting it with your last part
Lex Fridman (1:09:53.860)
because this is the other thing.
Lex Fridman (1:09:55.420)
And this is where I get so upset sometimes
Lex Fridman (1:09:58.500)
with my fellow Africans
Lex Fridman (1:10:00.460)
because they get so disgusted by what they're seeing, right?
Lex Fridman (1:10:04.460)
And they think the answer is to go for politics.
Magatte Wade (1:10:08.180)
Let's go be president.
Lex Fridman (1:10:09.340)
Let's go be this.
Magatte Wade (1:10:10.180)
Let's go be that.
Lex Fridman (1:10:11.000)
And we're gonna change everything.
Magatte Wade (1:10:12.020)
I see that in the US too.
Lex Fridman (1:10:13.540)
People thinking that presidents have all this power.
Lex Fridman (1:10:15.980)
Do you know who has the least power in government?
Lex Fridman (1:10:17.580)
The president.
Magatte Wade (1:10:18.660)
I mean, people don't get that.
Lex Fridman (1:10:20.580)
Your best bet, if you insist on going into politics,
Magatte Wade (1:10:23.620)
stick to the local level.
Lex Fridman (1:10:25.380)
That's where all the skeletons are buried and hidden.
Lex Fridman (1:10:28.380)
And that's where you can make the most impact, local level.
Lex Fridman (1:10:31.220)
I know it's not shiny.
Magatte Wade (1:10:32.140)
I know it's not exciting, but that's where it's at.
Lex Fridman (1:10:34.640)
So if you must go into politics, but there's another way.
Lex Fridman (1:10:37.920)
So in my case, what I do is two things.
Lex Fridman (1:10:40.140)
I preach and I practice.
Magatte Wade (1:10:41.920)
I preach, when I'm here talking to you about this,
Lex Fridman (1:10:44.260)
I'm preaching.
Magatte Wade (1:10:45.380)
I am sharing with people that is which I found.
Lex Fridman (1:10:48.140)
And by the way, the answer was there.
Magatte Wade (1:10:51.300)
I was doing these two businesses,
Lex Fridman (1:10:52.900)
realizing the difference in treatment
Magatte Wade (1:10:54.880)
of the doing business environment
Lex Fridman (1:10:58.140)
of the US compared to the doing business environment
Magatte Wade (1:11:00.980)
of Senegal.
Lex Fridman (1:11:02.180)
And at first I was like, of course, us,
Magatte Wade (1:11:04.460)
everything is messed up.
Lex Fridman (1:11:05.660)
It's because we're a poor country.
Lex Fridman (1:11:07.480)
But when I started to put two and two together,
Lex Fridman (1:11:09.660)
I'm like, you're poor because you have no money,
Magatte Wade (1:11:12.020)
at least not enough money to take care of your basic needs.
Lex Fridman (1:11:14.740)
You have no money because you have no source of income.
Lex Fridman (1:11:17.700)
Where does a source of income come from for most of us?
Lex Fridman (1:11:21.100)
It comes from a job, doesn't it?
Lex Fridman (1:11:23.540)
And then some people, sometimes at my UC Berkeley class,
Lex Fridman (1:11:26.220)
they say, oh no, it comes from government too.
Magatte Wade (1:11:29.100)
I'm like, I would like to think that even if you work
Lex Fridman (1:11:30.980)
for government, you're going to be paid something, right?
Lex Fridman (1:11:32.500)
And they're like, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:11:33.340)
And then even before I can say something, they're like,
Magatte Wade (1:11:35.780)
yeah, because that money we use to pay our public officials
Lex Fridman (1:11:39.420)
comes from taxes, you know, employers, employees,
Magatte Wade (1:11:43.680)
we go back to the private sector for most of it,
Lex Fridman (1:11:45.980)
from where this whole thing is created.
Lex Fridman (1:11:47.940)
So it's clear, you're poor because you have no money,
Lex Fridman (1:11:52.060)
no money because no source of income,
Magatte Wade (1:11:53.580)
source of income for most of us is a job.
Lex Fridman (1:11:55.340)
We're talking about, so where do jobs come from?
Magatte Wade (1:11:57.940)
The private sector, primarily small
Lex Fridman (1:12:00.020)
and medium sized enterprises.
Magatte Wade (1:12:01.540)
Then don't you think that we should make it easy,
Lex Fridman (1:12:06.500)
that we should have a friendly doing business environment.
Lex Fridman (1:12:12.660)
And also a lot of it comes not just from the small
Lex Fridman (1:12:17.780)
and medium sized businesses, but I think a lot
Lex Fridman (1:12:21.900)
of the values created from new ones being launched, right?
Lex Fridman (1:12:26.300)
It's not just like me, like saving somehow
Magatte Wade (1:12:29.220)
through regulation, the ones that are already there.
Lex Fridman (1:12:32.540)
It's like letting the market,
Magatte Wade (1:12:35.460)
letting the new better ideas flourish.
Lex Fridman (1:12:38.940)
It's about what I mean by doing business environment
Magatte Wade (1:12:42.100)
is all the things that you and I talked about earlier.
Lex Fridman (1:12:45.420)
Even the access of electricity is part
Magatte Wade (1:12:47.860)
of a doing business, but doing business.
Lex Fridman (1:12:49.700)
So basically when I discovered all of that,
Magatte Wade (1:12:52.060)
when I put all of those dots together,
Lex Fridman (1:12:54.180)
then I'm like, well, I guess the business,
Lex Fridman (1:12:56.540)
and it makes sense, Lex.
Lex Fridman (1:12:58.060)
If you want to grow tomatoes,
Magatte Wade (1:12:59.780)
you're gonna have to have two things.
Lex Fridman (1:13:01.220)
One is a good seed, right, that has good attributes.
Lex Fridman (1:13:05.940)
And then you're gonna have to have a good environment
Lex Fridman (1:13:09.580)
for it.
Lex Fridman (1:13:10.580)
Is the soil the right one?
Lex Fridman (1:13:12.420)
What's your pH level?
Magatte Wade (1:13:14.180)
All of those good nutrients that you're gonna put in it.
Lex Fridman (1:13:16.100)
Is it in a place that has tons of sun?
Lex Fridman (1:13:18.180)
How much sun exposure or not?
Lex Fridman (1:13:19.940)
The climate in general, is it gonna be cold?
Magatte Wade (1:13:21.500)
Not, not.
Lex Fridman (1:13:22.460)
You can have some beautiful tomatoes
Magatte Wade (1:13:25.140)
in the middle of Siberia, last time I checked.
Lex Fridman (1:13:27.340)
So same thing here.
Magatte Wade (1:13:28.500)
You know, Mohammed Yunus, the Nobel Laureate for Peace,
Lex Fridman (1:13:33.060)
said, poor people are bonsai people.
Magatte Wade (1:13:38.460)
They're the same people.
Lex Fridman (1:13:40.380)
If you put them in the normal, natural, friendly habitat
Magatte Wade (1:13:44.860)
where they can thrive, they become the tallest tree
Lex Fridman (1:13:48.220)
in the forest.
Magatte Wade (1:13:49.620)
Poor people are bonsai people.
Lex Fridman (1:13:51.380)
So you see that tiny pot you put around the bonsai tree?
Magatte Wade (1:13:55.460)
That's the tiny pot that's created
Lex Fridman (1:13:57.940)
by giving me such a hostile business environment
Magatte Wade (1:14:02.020)
that basically we're put together by the set of laws
Lex Fridman (1:14:05.420)
that you have put, that basically I have to jump through
Magatte Wade (1:14:08.980)
as a business person, practicing business in my country.
Lex Fridman (1:14:12.820)
If you turn that environment into a friendly environment
Magatte Wade (1:14:18.100)
where I am not married to my employees,
Lex Fridman (1:14:20.660)
I have flexibility of the labor laws
Magatte Wade (1:14:24.180)
are simple, straightforward, clean,
Lex Fridman (1:14:26.900)
where the tax code is very simple.
Magatte Wade (1:14:29.580)
It's not worth truckloads of laws like in my country.
Lex Fridman (1:14:32.500)
It's so complicated.
Magatte Wade (1:14:33.580)
You have to hire a CPA, which costs more money.
Lex Fridman (1:14:36.060)
And even them tell them, girl, we're gonna make some mistakes.
Magatte Wade (1:14:38.620)
They don't talk to me like that.
Lex Fridman (1:14:39.940)
They don't tell me, girl, they shouldn't, they better not.
Lex Fridman (1:14:43.500)
But they say, whatever they say.
Lex Fridman (1:14:45.460)
They say.
Magatte Wade (1:14:46.300)
I'm scared.
Lex Fridman (1:14:47.140)
You know.
Magatte Wade (1:14:47.980)
You know, they're like, we're gonna,
Lex Fridman (1:14:51.420)
but bottom line is we're gonna make mistakes.
Magatte Wade (1:14:53.700)
This thing is so complicated, we're gonna make mistakes.
Lex Fridman (1:14:55.460)
So, which means my ass is on the line.
Lex Fridman (1:14:57.940)
So anyway, so if the tax code was so simple,
Lex Fridman (1:15:02.020)
straightforward, like it is maybe in Texas,
Magatte Wade (1:15:04.540)
where up till a threshold, you owe me nothing,
Lex Fridman (1:15:07.380)
go online, five minutes, fill out your taxes,
Magatte Wade (1:15:10.380)
you're compliant, keep building your business
Lex Fridman (1:15:13.660)
because that's what we need from you.
Magatte Wade (1:15:15.100)
If you made it so easy and straightforward,
Lex Fridman (1:15:19.860)
then you know what?
Magatte Wade (1:15:20.820)
That's when you get all of these people,
Lex Fridman (1:15:22.740)
Lex, that you're talking about saying, you know what?
Magatte Wade (1:15:25.740)
My name is Aminata,
Lex Fridman (1:15:28.380)
and I live in the middle of nowhere, Senegal.
Lex Fridman (1:15:30.580)
But you know what?
Lex Fridman (1:15:31.420)
I've got this great idea for this really hot,
Magatte Wade (1:15:33.500)
nice hot sauce that I know the Americans are gonna love.
Lex Fridman (1:15:35.860)
I'm hearing that hot sauce is a big thing.
Magatte Wade (1:15:38.460)
Let me bring it to them.
Lex Fridman (1:15:39.900)
But everything is there for you to jump
Magatte Wade (1:15:41.620)
into the ring of entrepreneurship.
Lex Fridman (1:15:44.020)
You don't have to know someone like my God.
Magatte Wade (1:15:47.220)
You don't have to even have the ability
Lex Fridman (1:15:50.300)
to sell yourself maybe like I can sometimes.
Magatte Wade (1:15:53.260)
You are someone with a great idea.
Lex Fridman (1:15:57.180)
You're willing to work hard for it
Lex Fridman (1:15:59.340)
and pour everything you got into it.
Lex Fridman (1:16:00.860)
Guess what?
Magatte Wade (1:16:03.260)
It's there.
Lex Fridman (1:16:04.100)
You can get into the race.
Magatte Wade (1:16:05.380)
You can be a dreamer,
Lex Fridman (1:16:07.020)
and you can be a dreamer in a rural little village.
Lex Fridman (1:16:09.780)
And then that has ripple effects
Lex Fridman (1:16:11.580)
throughout the entire country.
Magatte Wade (1:16:12.660)
Young kids growing up, you know,
Lex Fridman (1:16:14.180)
I wanna be the next X, whatever.
Lex Fridman (1:16:16.820)
And it doesn't have to be the next Steve Jobs.
Lex Fridman (1:16:19.860)
That seems really far, far away.
Magatte Wade (1:16:21.980)
It's at all levels.
Lex Fridman (1:16:23.660)
You create local heroes because representation matters.
Lex Fridman (1:16:29.740)
Right?
Lex Fridman (1:16:30.580)
So, and we are so badly in need of that.
Lex Fridman (1:16:33.900)
And so that's what all the things
Lex Fridman (1:16:36.140)
that have been stolen from us
Magatte Wade (1:16:37.340)
as long as things remain the same.
Lex Fridman (1:16:39.300)
So Lex, once I found out that basically at the end of the day
Magatte Wade (1:16:42.820)
the answer is economic freedom.
Lex Fridman (1:16:45.060)
And that when it comes to that,
Magatte Wade (1:16:46.460)
the indexes, economic indexes that measure that,
Lex Fridman (1:16:48.980)
whether it's the doing business index ranking
Magatte Wade (1:16:50.620)
of the World Bank,
Lex Fridman (1:16:51.580)
or the Fraser Economic Freedom Index
Magatte Wade (1:16:54.380)
of the Heritage Foundation.
Lex Fridman (1:16:56.060)
When you look at all of those indexes and others,
Lex Fridman (1:16:58.740)
what do they have in common?
Lex Fridman (1:17:00.540)
One after another they show you
Magatte Wade (1:17:02.100)
that it is harder to do business
Lex Fridman (1:17:04.340)
in almost anywhere in Sub Saharan Africa
Magatte Wade (1:17:06.340)
than it is per se anywhere in Scandinavia.
Lex Fridman (1:17:10.340)
So it is telling you that Scandinavian nations,
Magatte Wade (1:17:13.740)
that socialist Americans tend to love so much
Lex Fridman (1:17:16.260)
and take as an example,
Magatte Wade (1:17:17.340)
although there too they're showing you
Lex Fridman (1:17:18.500)
that they don't understand
Magatte Wade (1:17:19.340)
what's going on really in Scandinavia,
Lex Fridman (1:17:21.940)
that Scandinavia is more capitalist.
Magatte Wade (1:17:25.180)
Scandinavian nations are more capitalist
Lex Fridman (1:17:27.140)
than almost any Sub Saharan African nations.
Magatte Wade (1:17:30.260)
Ultimately, the political systems
Lex Fridman (1:17:32.820)
actually don't even matter nearly as much
Magatte Wade (1:17:35.940)
as the private sector being able
Lex Fridman (1:17:39.660)
to operate the machinery of capitalism.
Magatte Wade (1:17:42.220)
There you go, there you go, there you go.
Lex Fridman (1:17:45.100)
And it's almost like, like I said,
Magatte Wade (1:17:47.140)
it's almost like its own little widget within it.
Lex Fridman (1:17:49.660)
You can have whatever type of society
Magatte Wade (1:17:51.380)
you want to practice,
Lex Fridman (1:17:52.220)
you want to exercise at whatever level you want to.
Lex Fridman (1:17:55.420)
But if you're serious about becoming a capitalist,
Lex Fridman (1:17:59.420)
becoming a middle to high income nation,
Magatte Wade (1:18:03.660)
there is no other pathway that we know of at this point.
Lex Fridman (1:18:07.740)
And you know what made me super excited about that
Magatte Wade (1:18:11.300)
beyond having finally found my answer.
Lex Fridman (1:18:16.700)
I have to tell you when I found that answer,
Magatte Wade (1:18:18.700)
I literally fell to my knees.
Lex Fridman (1:18:21.180)
It was the type of feeling that,
Magatte Wade (1:18:24.540)
you know, if something is not well with you,
Lex Fridman (1:18:28.340)
whether it's physical or mental,
Magatte Wade (1:18:30.460)
something is not well, you're not well.
Lex Fridman (1:18:32.820)
And you go around and you go to the so called specialists,
Magatte Wade (1:18:35.540)
some of them, you know,
Lex Fridman (1:18:37.260)
but you're going around for years,
Magatte Wade (1:18:39.180)
going around trying to get help for your ailment.
Lex Fridman (1:18:42.860)
And here they don't know.
Magatte Wade (1:18:45.700)
Here they tell you things that you can't tell why,
Lex Fridman (1:18:48.500)
but you just know it's not true.
Magatte Wade (1:18:50.340)
They're this, they're that.
Lex Fridman (1:18:51.940)
And it's going on for years after year after year.
Lex Fridman (1:18:54.340)
And finally you meet this one person
Lex Fridman (1:18:56.740)
and boom, it's there.
Magatte Wade (1:19:01.620)
Not only the liberation,
Lex Fridman (1:19:05.260)
but also this whole new world that comes with it.
Lex Fridman (1:19:07.860)
You know, I'm still ill, but guess what?
Lex Fridman (1:19:13.020)
There's a path forward.
Magatte Wade (1:19:14.620)
We know that.
Lex Fridman (1:19:16.300)
I'm going to have a lot of work to do, but there's hope.
Magatte Wade (1:19:20.020)
Yeah, and you're the beacon of hope actually,
Lex Fridman (1:19:23.900)
for a lot of people in that part of the world.
Lex Fridman (1:19:25.820)
And those beacons are actually really necessary.
Lex Fridman (1:19:28.260)
So not only is there hope, but you can become,
Magatte Wade (1:19:32.540)
I mean, the beacon for your people, your home,
Lex Fridman (1:19:37.900)
this power that you see that you feel all around
Magatte Wade (1:19:40.820)
to become, to escape the feeling of being trapped.
Lex Fridman (1:19:46.500)
Is there a device you can give to people that,
Magatte Wade (1:19:51.260)
to young girls and boys dreaming somewhere in Africa
Lex Fridman (1:19:56.820)
of how to change the world?
Magatte Wade (1:19:58.900)
That's right.
Lex Fridman (1:19:59.740)
And by the way, I want to say there are bigger beacons.
Magatte Wade (1:20:03.060)
There are better beacons than me.
Lex Fridman (1:20:05.180)
I just happen to be someone who has the chance
Magatte Wade (1:20:08.940)
of talking to you right now.
Lex Fridman (1:20:11.620)
And one of my goals is to open the same doors
Magatte Wade (1:20:14.540)
that were opened for me, because together, our voice,
Lex Fridman (1:20:17.500)
there's such amazing stories out there.
Lex Fridman (1:20:20.180)
And so bigger beacons, better beacons out there.
Lex Fridman (1:20:26.460)
One thing here for me, the reason why I do
Lex Fridman (1:20:32.140)
what I'm doing right now, and it's almost to a point
Lex Fridman (1:20:34.860)
of self destructing my own health.
Magatte Wade (1:20:37.740)
I feel invested with such the mission of,
Lex Fridman (1:20:41.100)
I have been afforded the truth.
Lex Fridman (1:20:43.620)
So it is my moral duty to try to take it around.
Lex Fridman (1:20:45.980)
I know I sound, people sometimes say,
Magatte Wade (1:20:48.260)
when I listen to you, I feel like I'm talking to a priest.
Lex Fridman (1:20:51.900)
And I'm like, because the gospel, I receive the gospel.
Lex Fridman (1:20:56.900)
So anyway, but the thing is, Lex,
Lex Fridman (1:20:59.660)
who tells you these things to this day?
Magatte Wade (1:21:03.140)
When they talk about the poverty of Africa,
Lex Fridman (1:21:04.980)
what do they talk about?
Magatte Wade (1:21:06.220)
They sit in front telling you,
Lex Fridman (1:21:07.140)
oh yeah, it's because of colonialism.
Magatte Wade (1:21:08.580)
It's because of racism.
Lex Fridman (1:21:09.980)
It's because of imperialism.
Magatte Wade (1:21:11.260)
It's because they're stealing raw material, blah, blah, blah.
Lex Fridman (1:21:14.580)
Is any of those guilty to some level of where we are today?
Lex Fridman (1:21:21.220)
Maybe part of the reason where we are today?
Lex Fridman (1:21:23.820)
Maybe, maybe.
Lex Fridman (1:21:25.740)
Is that the only reason or the overwhelming reasons?
Lex Fridman (1:21:29.420)
No.
Lex Fridman (1:21:30.420)
Is that insurmountable?
Lex Fridman (1:21:31.900)
Absolutely not.
Lex Fridman (1:21:33.340)
So for me, don't stay in that place
Lex Fridman (1:21:36.020)
that steals and robs you of your agency.
Lex Fridman (1:21:40.100)
So I think it's important for people to A,
Lex Fridman (1:21:43.140)
get the right diagnosis as to why we are where we are.
Magatte Wade (1:21:45.820)
Because what you and I just talked about,
Lex Fridman (1:21:48.020)
the mainstream does not talk about this
Magatte Wade (1:21:50.660)
when they even talk about Africa
Lex Fridman (1:21:52.580)
in terms that are not the usual suspect of,
Magatte Wade (1:21:55.580)
oh, famine is building over there.
Lex Fridman (1:21:57.580)
War is building over here.
Magatte Wade (1:21:58.660)
Oh, we're having Ebola is coming.
Lex Fridman (1:22:00.180)
All of that stuff.
Magatte Wade (1:22:01.020)
Even when they were talking about the monkeypox,
Lex Fridman (1:22:02.780)
which at first, in this wave,
Magatte Wade (1:22:05.540)
it started with white people in Europe.
Lex Fridman (1:22:07.620)
Well, even in the many newspapers you pull out,
Magatte Wade (1:22:09.820)
it's black people with monkeypox on their skin.
Lex Fridman (1:22:13.660)
I'm like, wait a second.
Magatte Wade (1:22:14.580)
This time around, it did not start with us.
Lex Fridman (1:22:17.020)
So why are you always showing us
Lex Fridman (1:22:18.820)
when it's right now happening to white people?
Lex Fridman (1:22:21.780)
So all of that is happening.
Lex Fridman (1:22:24.060)
So for me, the thing is,
Lex Fridman (1:22:26.380)
we, the world simply right now,
Magatte Wade (1:22:29.380)
does not have the right diagnosis
Lex Fridman (1:22:32.060)
as to why this continent right now,
Magatte Wade (1:22:34.260)
despite all of its riches,
Lex Fridman (1:22:36.180)
because Lord knows it's got riches
Magatte Wade (1:22:37.900)
starting it with its young population.
Lex Fridman (1:22:40.140)
75% of the population in my country
Magatte Wade (1:22:42.020)
is below the age of 25 years old.
Lex Fridman (1:22:44.260)
So when we're talking, I know we're talking about,
Magatte Wade (1:22:47.660)
repopulation, it's an important,
Lex Fridman (1:22:50.540)
we're gonna have to go for that.
Magatte Wade (1:22:53.220)
Maybe you'll get me going about comments,
Lex Fridman (1:22:54.580)
I don't know, but anyway.
Lex Fridman (1:22:57.060)
So here, my point is,
Lex Fridman (1:22:58.380)
A, we need the right diagnosis
Magatte Wade (1:22:59.820)
as to why this continent is the poorest continent
Lex Fridman (1:23:02.220)
in the world, despite its riches
Magatte Wade (1:23:03.780)
starting with its young people,
Lex Fridman (1:23:05.700)
all the natural resources, diversity in land,
Magatte Wade (1:23:08.540)
people, cultures, languages,
Lex Fridman (1:23:10.500)
everything that make for great ingredient for awesomeness.
Magatte Wade (1:23:15.380)
Despite all of that,
Lex Fridman (1:23:16.540)
we are the poorest region in the world.
Magatte Wade (1:23:18.300)
People need to know that the reason why that is,
Lex Fridman (1:23:21.500)
it's because we also happen to be
Magatte Wade (1:23:23.660)
the most overregulated region in the world.
Lex Fridman (1:23:27.420)
At the end of the day, what Africa,
Lex Fridman (1:23:30.140)
and I dare to say Africa here,
Lex Fridman (1:23:32.060)
and treated as one,
Magatte Wade (1:23:34.020)
we are 54 countries, 55 depending on how you count,
Lex Fridman (1:23:37.220)
yet we almost for a tiny minority of these countries,
Magatte Wade (1:23:43.220)
we almost all lack one of the most crucial freedoms
Lex Fridman (1:23:48.100)
that there are.
Magatte Wade (1:23:49.300)
If you're serious about prosperity building,
Lex Fridman (1:23:51.700)
we lack economic freedom.
Lex Fridman (1:23:54.300)
And economic freedom is the thing
Lex Fridman (1:23:55.820)
that unlocks that human potential of the young people just.
Magatte Wade (1:23:58.740)
Yes, for them to run,
Lex Fridman (1:24:01.220)
to run with their ideas, to start businesses,
Magatte Wade (1:24:05.140)
or to start initiative.
Lex Fridman (1:24:06.340)
It doesn't have to be for profit all the time, right?
Lex Fridman (1:24:08.900)
But it is this thing that gets you to get up
Lex Fridman (1:24:12.660)
and go and do something, criticize by creating.
Magatte Wade (1:24:15.980)
Young people are naturally wired
Lex Fridman (1:24:17.620)
to wanna criticize by creating.
Magatte Wade (1:24:19.300)
They're not sitting around waiting or complaining usually,
Lex Fridman (1:24:21.900)
unless you put them in a tiny box
Lex Fridman (1:24:23.260)
and they have no other way to go.
Lex Fridman (1:24:24.740)
And in this situation, what they do,
Magatte Wade (1:24:26.940)
let's talk about precolonial Africa,
Lex Fridman (1:24:29.180)
of four favors before slavery ever happened.
Magatte Wade (1:24:33.060)
There were black people on the continent.
Lex Fridman (1:24:35.300)
You see, when we talk about the story of black people
Lex Fridman (1:24:37.660)
and Africans, black people in Africa,
Lex Fridman (1:24:40.980)
for most of us, even me,
Magatte Wade (1:24:43.860)
I noticed that unconsciously it starts with slavery.
Lex Fridman (1:24:46.980)
But you're like, no, we were there before,
Magatte Wade (1:24:49.140)
before white men ever set foot.
Lex Fridman (1:24:50.340)
Who were we?
Lex Fridman (1:24:51.340)
What were we doing in our diversity?
Lex Fridman (1:24:54.460)
What economic systems were we running on?
Lex Fridman (1:24:58.500)
And then you realize that for most of them,
Lex Fridman (1:25:00.420)
they were free marketeers
Lex Fridman (1:25:02.060)
and they were very much on the free trade,
Lex Fridman (1:25:03.620)
on the free enterprise side.
Lex Fridman (1:25:05.340)
So even that is a reinforcement.
Lex Fridman (1:25:07.300)
This is a place where we do not understand our history.
Lex Fridman (1:25:11.820)
So proper diagnosis, Africa is a poorest region in the world
Lex Fridman (1:25:14.940)
because it happens to be
Magatte Wade (1:25:16.260)
the most overregulated region in the world,
Lex Fridman (1:25:19.060)
lacks economic freedom.
Lex Fridman (1:25:20.820)
Number two, what do we do about that?
Lex Fridman (1:25:22.540)
We gotta become serious about reforms, economic reforms,
Lex Fridman (1:25:25.940)
so that we can become beacons of free markets.
Lex Fridman (1:25:30.940)
Just like the Asian tigers,
Magatte Wade (1:25:32.420)
that's what the Asian tigers did.
Lex Fridman (1:25:33.980)
They had to become serious.
Magatte Wade (1:25:35.300)
Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea,
Lex Fridman (1:25:38.780)
those guys had to become serious about the free markets.
Magatte Wade (1:25:43.140)
Lee Kuan Woo, he's just like, we gotta do something.
Lex Fridman (1:25:48.740)
And he looked around and he realized at some point,
Magatte Wade (1:25:51.900)
we gotta make these reforms.
Lex Fridman (1:25:53.220)
And he went onto that journey of reforms,
Magatte Wade (1:25:56.180)
making his country one of the most free market countries
Lex Fridman (1:25:59.060)
in the world, and voila, the magic happened.
Magatte Wade (1:26:02.100)
Back in the 30s, the stock market crash
Lex Fridman (1:26:05.860)
and the Great Depression and everything,
Magatte Wade (1:26:08.100)
the world and with all the lies that were told
Lex Fridman (1:26:11.300)
to the world coming from the Soviet Union, Stalin,
Magatte Wade (1:26:15.020)
while they were starving and dying over there,
Lex Fridman (1:26:17.380)
but oh no, I mean, Durante was telling the world that,
Magatte Wade (1:26:20.660)
oh no, no, everything is going well,
Lex Fridman (1:26:22.140)
nobody's dying when we know now
Lex Fridman (1:26:24.100)
and getting political prices based on this stuff.
Lex Fridman (1:26:26.460)
But then the world went on believing that,
Magatte Wade (1:26:29.060)
oh no, capitalism failed.
Lex Fridman (1:26:31.580)
This crash that you had in the stock market
Magatte Wade (1:26:37.780)
is proof this is what late stage capitalism produces.
Lex Fridman (1:26:40.820)
You guys always have your big ups and downs.
Lex Fridman (1:26:42.900)
And by that time, it was so hard on people
Lex Fridman (1:26:44.740)
that they're like, we're done with this.
Lex Fridman (1:26:46.300)
And at the same time, we were told the lies
Lex Fridman (1:26:48.180)
coming out of the Soviet Union,
Magatte Wade (1:26:49.020)
that supposedly the communism was doing just fine.
Lex Fridman (1:26:51.780)
And you're at the point where the free market concept
Magatte Wade (1:26:54.500)
almost died and it's the Asian tigers
Lex Fridman (1:26:59.780)
who kind of helped bring that idea back to life, right?
Magatte Wade (1:27:04.460)
Their success having used the free markets.
Lex Fridman (1:27:06.740)
And so for me, we gotta make a new commitment
Magatte Wade (1:27:11.580)
to the free markets on this continent
Lex Fridman (1:27:12.980)
if we wanna go anywhere, if we wanna go anywhere.
Lex Fridman (1:27:15.620)
And the timing is perfect because the young people,
Lex Fridman (1:27:18.660)
there is a kind of freedom
Magatte Wade (1:27:22.660)
for the revolutionary free markets in this whole space.
Lex Fridman (1:27:25.740)
Exactly, and you said something, oh, say that again,
Magatte Wade (1:27:28.980)
because I wanna tell you what I'm hearing in that,
Lex Fridman (1:27:30.780)
because something's really cool.
Magatte Wade (1:27:31.700)
Say it again, come on, Lex.
Lex Fridman (1:27:32.940)
I don't know which part, English is my second language too.
Magatte Wade (1:27:36.460)
No, you said there's something revolutionary in that.
Lex Fridman (1:27:40.620)
Because you know how young people are attached
Magatte Wade (1:27:41.900)
to the revolution and how, I understand,
Lex Fridman (1:27:45.140)
look Lex, I understand and I am willing
Magatte Wade (1:27:49.540)
to give the benefits of a doubt
Lex Fridman (1:27:51.900)
to some of these socialists who came to it
Magatte Wade (1:27:55.700)
because they had to witness
Lex Fridman (1:27:58.260)
some of the horrors of their times.
Magatte Wade (1:28:03.300)
There's a revolutionary spirit behind that.
Lex Fridman (1:28:05.180)
It's ultimately criticized by creating.
Magatte Wade (1:28:08.740)
Exactly, exactly, but violent revolution
Lex Fridman (1:28:11.300)
is never the answer.
Lex Fridman (1:28:12.660)
But that's what they went for in 1789 in France,
Lex Fridman (1:28:15.380)
the French Revolution, and Marx and Engels,
Magatte Wade (1:28:19.260)
they're promoting these ideas that usually,
Lex Fridman (1:28:21.820)
for them, justifies violent revolution.
Magatte Wade (1:28:24.060)
Then in all of these people,
Lex Fridman (1:28:27.020)
I am with them when they say that they want
Magatte Wade (1:28:30.020)
to see equal rights for people.
Lex Fridman (1:28:32.020)
Of course, I don't agree with their,
Magatte Wade (1:28:33.420)
therefore, we need to push for equal outcomes.
Lex Fridman (1:28:36.980)
Equal rights is right, but equal outcomes is not right.
Lex Fridman (1:28:39.740)
But I am with them for all the way to equal rights,
Lex Fridman (1:28:43.060)
but this is where the two paths go this way.
Lex Fridman (1:28:45.780)
And also, the fact that they have no issue
Lex Fridman (1:28:50.220)
with violent revolution, people get killed.
Magatte Wade (1:28:53.460)
People get put in gulags and people get, that's not right.
Lex Fridman (1:28:57.500)
So what you just said here, just give me goosebumps,
Magatte Wade (1:28:59.820)
because there is revolution in the free markets,
Lex Fridman (1:29:02.860)
but that's the type of revolution we want.
Magatte Wade (1:29:04.740)
The revolution that comes from people creating,
Lex Fridman (1:29:07.220)
criticizing by creating, it's one of the best forms
Magatte Wade (1:29:09.620)
of revolution.
Lex Fridman (1:29:10.500)
If you ask me, that's the most sexy way of revolution.
Magatte Wade (1:29:14.820)
Criticize by creating, but what,
Lex Fridman (1:29:16.340)
you're gonna go shoot people or be like,
Magatte Wade (1:29:18.540)
what's his name, Che Guevara, who tells you,
Lex Fridman (1:29:22.700)
I love, it's in writing, I love nothing more
Lex Fridman (1:29:25.140)
than to fry the brain of a man with his gun, really?
Lex Fridman (1:29:30.780)
Well, in terms of sexy, there is power in that message
Magatte Wade (1:29:35.620)
of the oppressor, the abuser, the enemy that has abused
Lex Fridman (1:29:41.060)
their power, they need to be destroyed,
Lex Fridman (1:29:44.260)
and there's power in the message of that violence.
Lex Fridman (1:29:47.620)
Unfortunately, the lessons of history show
Magatte Wade (1:29:49.420)
that the violence, one, doesn't work,
Lex Fridman (1:29:53.140)
but it does the following.
Magatte Wade (1:29:55.900)
There is something about human nature,
Lex Fridman (1:29:57.460)
as the old cliche goes, that power corrupts
Lex Fridman (1:29:59.580)
and absolute power corrupts absolutely,
Lex Fridman (1:30:01.660)
is the people who are in charge of committing that violence
Magatte Wade (1:30:05.580)
it does something to their head.
Lex Fridman (1:30:07.780)
The first person you kill, the second person you kill,
Magatte Wade (1:30:10.940)
for some reason, you lose your ability,
Lex Fridman (1:30:13.940)
the compassion for other humans.
Magatte Wade (1:30:16.140)
Even if you began as a revolutionary,
Lex Fridman (1:30:18.580)
as the Soviets did, fighting for the worker,
Magatte Wade (1:30:21.340)
for the rights and the basic humanity of the people
Lex Fridman (1:30:26.020)
that really do the work, you lose the plot somehow
Magatte Wade (1:30:31.620)
because of the violence.
Lex Fridman (1:30:33.620)
So in that way, it seems like the lesson,
Magatte Wade (1:30:36.620)
at least of this part of the human history,
Lex Fridman (1:30:38.780)
until the robots take over, is that the economic freedom,
Magatte Wade (1:30:44.340)
free markets, and protecting those,
Lex Fridman (1:30:46.860)
and allowing anyone from your country to dream
Lex Fridman (1:30:53.420)
and to make that dream a reality by creating it
Lex Fridman (1:30:56.340)
with as few sort of roadblocks as possible.
Magatte Wade (1:31:01.340)
Exactly, so that's why for me, the message is very clear,
Lex Fridman (1:31:05.780)
is what we talked about today.
Magatte Wade (1:31:07.500)
The reason why Africa is the poorest region in the world
Lex Fridman (1:31:09.500)
is because it happens to be the most overregulated region
Magatte Wade (1:31:13.060)
in the world, and for some people who might be put off by it
Lex Fridman (1:31:17.980)
because they're like, oh, she's talking about laissez faire!
Magatte Wade (1:31:20.500)
No, let me put it maybe in a way that you can understand.
Lex Fridman (1:31:24.740)
Do you think that it should be as easy
Magatte Wade (1:31:28.100)
for any person in Africa, for any entrepreneur in Africa
Lex Fridman (1:31:30.820)
to enterprise than it is for any person in Scandinavia
Lex Fridman (1:31:35.020)
to enterprise?
Lex Fridman (1:31:36.100)
If your answer is yes, which I would hope it is,
Magatte Wade (1:31:38.940)
then you have a moral obligation to work with me
Lex Fridman (1:31:42.860)
to make my country, and as a whole, my continent,
Magatte Wade (1:31:47.060)
more free markets.
Lex Fridman (1:31:48.260)
It's that simple.
Magatte Wade (1:31:49.180)
At that point, there's no like, yes,
Lex Fridman (1:31:51.180)
but on the other hand, uh uh, no.
Lex Fridman (1:31:53.540)
And for me, on that question,
Lex Fridman (1:31:54.580)
and I yet have to find somebody who claims to say no.
Magatte Wade (1:31:57.020)
If you say no, then we have a whole nother problem
Lex Fridman (1:31:59.220)
that I'm not even talking to at that point anymore.
Lex Fridman (1:32:01.260)
So yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:32:02.100)
So just to clarify, there's a perception in some reality
Magatte Wade (1:32:06.860)
that the Scandinavian countries have elements of socialism
Lex Fridman (1:32:10.220)
in their politics, in their society,
Magatte Wade (1:32:12.260)
even in their economics.
Lex Fridman (1:32:14.340)
So at the very least, Africa should have,
Magatte Wade (1:32:18.620)
in terms of economic indices, should be as free
Lex Fridman (1:32:23.140)
as the Scandinavian countries.
Magatte Wade (1:32:24.700)
You're just giving that example.
Lex Fridman (1:32:25.540)
As economically free, yes.
Magatte Wade (1:32:27.100)
Because see, the Scandinavian, they do have
Lex Fridman (1:32:32.140)
a subsidized, you know, like a welfare system,
Magatte Wade (1:32:34.540)
that's what, a more socialized welfare system,
Lex Fridman (1:32:37.620)
but the way they make their money
Magatte Wade (1:32:39.220)
is very much the way of the free markets.
Lex Fridman (1:32:41.420)
So there is how you make your money,
Lex Fridman (1:32:43.220)
and then there's how you maybe decide
Lex Fridman (1:32:44.700)
as a country to redistribute it, right?
Lex Fridman (1:32:49.060)
And so even there, even in Scandinavia,
Lex Fridman (1:32:54.220)
again, yes, they have more economic freedom.
Lex Fridman (1:32:56.540)
So then from there, Lex, where we go is my job
Lex Fridman (1:33:00.820)
and my goal is for every single African, young and old,
Magatte Wade (1:33:08.500)
to know what I have come to learn.
Lex Fridman (1:33:13.060)
We are not doomed.
Magatte Wade (1:33:16.980)
It's not over for us.
Lex Fridman (1:33:19.660)
We will never catch up.
Lex Fridman (1:33:21.220)
The time for catch up is gone, but guess what?
Lex Fridman (1:33:24.740)
We've got a strong, strong possibility
Lex Fridman (1:33:27.580)
and chance to leapfrog, and leapfrog we will.
Lex Fridman (1:33:33.100)
It is still time, but for that to happen,
Magatte Wade (1:33:35.660)
like I said, we need to know
Lex Fridman (1:33:36.980)
what we just talked about today
Magatte Wade (1:33:38.140)
because that is not what the mainstream
Lex Fridman (1:33:40.460)
keeps us abreast with.
Magatte Wade (1:33:41.860)
When you go to the World Bank,
Lex Fridman (1:33:43.780)
they don't necessarily work along these lines.
Magatte Wade (1:33:46.420)
They're still, it's not, when you go to universities,
Lex Fridman (1:33:51.260)
I will ask you, MIT, the MIT Econ Department,
Magatte Wade (1:33:54.540)
or even some, most of the professors,
Lex Fridman (1:33:57.020)
are they free market oriented?
Magatte Wade (1:33:58.260)
We find that oftentimes in academia,
Lex Fridman (1:34:01.100)
there is a strong anti capitalist bias.
Magatte Wade (1:34:03.860)
There is a strong anti free market bias.
Lex Fridman (1:34:06.940)
So this is a problem.
Magatte Wade (1:34:08.860)
This is a problem.
Lex Fridman (1:34:09.820)
Nobody cares about the economists anyway.
Magatte Wade (1:34:11.860)
Yeah, so we move forward.
Lex Fridman (1:34:14.380)
In MIT, the spirit of the entrepreneur burns bright,
Magatte Wade (1:34:18.860)
not in the economics department
Lex Fridman (1:34:20.980)
because they just write op ed articles,
Lex Fridman (1:34:23.940)
but in the dreamers, the young undergrads
Lex Fridman (1:34:26.380)
that actually build something.
Magatte Wade (1:34:27.980)
No, I get that.
Lex Fridman (1:34:28.820)
But then we cannot be stifling their efforts
Magatte Wade (1:34:32.420)
by putting these artificially made regulations and laws
Lex Fridman (1:34:37.340)
that stand in the way and clip their wings.
Lex Fridman (1:34:39.180)
So that's why when you were saying,
Lex Fridman (1:34:41.060)
what advice do you give to them?
Magatte Wade (1:34:43.180)
The advice I give to them is each one of them,
Lex Fridman (1:34:47.140)
they have to pay attention to this discourse we just had.
Magatte Wade (1:34:51.540)
I don't ask anybody to agree with me on face value.
Lex Fridman (1:34:55.420)
Go back, do like I had to do.
Magatte Wade (1:34:57.140)
I come very much from the left of the left,
Lex Fridman (1:34:58.620)
if you can believe that.
Lex Fridman (1:34:59.900)
But I had to have my own intellectual journey.
Lex Fridman (1:35:02.380)
And in this case, my intellectual journey
Magatte Wade (1:35:04.260)
was very much complimented by my own life.
Lex Fridman (1:35:08.100)
Having to build these companies on two separate continents
Lex Fridman (1:35:12.620)
and having to, I had front row seat of the differences.
Lex Fridman (1:35:17.180)
At first, I thought it was this way just because we're poor
Lex Fridman (1:35:20.100)
and therefore we must stop and therefore it's like this.
Lex Fridman (1:35:22.700)
But eventually I learned that no,
Magatte Wade (1:35:24.380)
we're poor because we lack academic freedom.
Lex Fridman (1:35:26.300)
And if a country allows its citizens
Magatte Wade (1:35:28.100)
the academic freedom to enterprise, then they become rich.
Lex Fridman (1:35:31.500)
So yeah, I had it upside down, you see.
Lex Fridman (1:35:33.540)
And so it's important for people to know that.
Lex Fridman (1:35:35.380)
So number one, know your facts
Magatte Wade (1:35:38.260)
because your facts will empower you.
Lex Fridman (1:35:41.740)
In this case, I like to use that word,
Magatte Wade (1:35:43.580)
facts will empower you and they will even furthermore,
Lex Fridman (1:35:46.140)
they will power you, empower and power you.
Magatte Wade (1:35:49.260)
Because empower is like inside
Lex Fridman (1:35:50.740)
and power is like I push you forward and up.
Lex Fridman (1:35:53.780)
So that's what it does to know the facts.
Lex Fridman (1:35:56.860)
And then go on and look around you.
Lex Fridman (1:36:00.380)
Where are the best practices of this?
Lex Fridman (1:36:02.540)
Who is at the cutting edge of a free markets?
Magatte Wade (1:36:05.780)
Where it's done in a way there,
Lex Fridman (1:36:08.460)
people don't necessarily be left behind
Magatte Wade (1:36:10.420)
or anything like that.
Lex Fridman (1:36:11.500)
We're in 2022 for Christ's sake.
Magatte Wade (1:36:13.740)
We don't have to do entrepreneurship
Lex Fridman (1:36:15.860)
the same way maybe it was done 50 years ago,
Magatte Wade (1:36:17.860)
100 years ago when as a community, as a people,
Lex Fridman (1:36:20.340)
we were maybe less enlightened because of our times, right?
Magatte Wade (1:36:23.220)
We can update this thing and move forward,
Lex Fridman (1:36:26.380)
but update is definitely not build back,
Lex Fridman (1:36:29.580)
what do they call it?
Lex Fridman (1:36:30.420)
Build back new or whatever they're calling it at the WF,
Magatte Wade (1:36:33.420)
whatever nonsense and stuff they're smoking over there.
Lex Fridman (1:36:36.620)
It's not that.
Magatte Wade (1:36:37.460)
There are some principles that are universal
Lex Fridman (1:36:39.700)
and that stand the test of time.
Magatte Wade (1:36:41.900)
Those we have to keep and on top add the new things
Lex Fridman (1:36:46.900)
we learned from our times and from life.
Lex Fridman (1:36:49.380)
So that's what I want them to know.
Lex Fridman (1:36:51.460)
Learn your facts, be empowered and powered,
Lex Fridman (1:36:54.780)
and then look around, think about it
Lex Fridman (1:36:57.060)
and look to see where the best practices are
Magatte Wade (1:37:00.420)
around the world because the world is yours.
Lex Fridman (1:37:02.500)
You might be African, but the world is yours.
Lex Fridman (1:37:04.620)
So stop this nonsense of, oh, well,
Lex Fridman (1:37:06.860)
it's done by white people, so we're not gonna do it.
Magatte Wade (1:37:09.060)
Get the best that exists in humanity
Lex Fridman (1:37:12.860)
for what you're trying to solve.
Lex Fridman (1:37:15.020)
And on top of that, put your own twist, right?
Lex Fridman (1:37:19.060)
Bitcoin is all of ours to take.
Magatte Wade (1:37:22.340)
Bitcoin is not the white man's thing,
Lex Fridman (1:37:24.060)
so therefore, oh, come on, you know,
Magatte Wade (1:37:25.380)
because we have a misguided pride,
Lex Fridman (1:37:27.100)
we're not gonna use Bitcoin because it's white man's time.
Magatte Wade (1:37:29.180)
Bitcoin is math, you idiot.
Lex Fridman (1:37:30.860)
Math is universal, so it belongs to all of us.
Magatte Wade (1:37:34.140)
There's no color.
Lex Fridman (1:37:35.100)
Exactly.
Magatte Wade (1:37:35.940)
In the space of economics, in the space of ideas.
Lex Fridman (1:37:40.580)
And there's a chance to leapfrog too,
Magatte Wade (1:37:43.180)
which is really, really powerful.
Lex Fridman (1:37:44.740)
Exactly, because here we will leapfrog,
Lex Fridman (1:37:47.540)
and let's, I'm not crazy, this is gonna happen.
Lex Fridman (1:37:50.700)
You mark my words, but it's gonna happen
Magatte Wade (1:37:53.540)
if as many people hear what we're talking about today,
Lex Fridman (1:37:56.660)
because at some point, the solution is not gonna come.
Magatte Wade (1:38:00.140)
It's not me, it's not,
Lex Fridman (1:38:02.740)
it's gonna come from the wisdom of a crowd.
Magatte Wade (1:38:04.660)
This is why I love the crowd.
Lex Fridman (1:38:06.860)
There's no better wisdom than the crowd,
Lex Fridman (1:38:08.500)
and that's also why I believe in the free markets.
Lex Fridman (1:38:10.500)
This concept of emergent order, there's no way,
Magatte Wade (1:38:13.660)
there's no central planning that is smart enough,
Lex Fridman (1:38:16.460)
that has the level of intel that street level people have,
Magatte Wade (1:38:21.540)
trying to create something.
Lex Fridman (1:38:22.820)
It's just, we just have to be humble.
Magatte Wade (1:38:24.620)
There's just something at the bottom of a pyramid
Lex Fridman (1:38:27.420)
that just bubbles up and happens.
Magatte Wade (1:38:29.660)
They're the best.
Lex Fridman (1:38:31.300)
I think the cynicism, the idea that people are dumb
Magatte Wade (1:38:34.540)
is at the core of a lot of things
Lex Fridman (1:38:37.820)
that prevent the flourishing of society.
Magatte Wade (1:38:41.060)
You know, this kind of anecdotally,
Lex Fridman (1:38:42.340)
people are like, ah, everyone is stupid,
Lex Fridman (1:38:44.260)
and people say that jokingly.
Lex Fridman (1:38:45.940)
But the reality is, people are incredible.
Magatte Wade (1:38:49.540)
They have the capacity for kindness, for love,
Lex Fridman (1:38:53.140)
for innovation, for brilliance, in all kinds of dimensions.
Magatte Wade (1:38:57.500)
You might suck at math,
Lex Fridman (1:38:59.620)
but you might be amazing at carpentry.
Magatte Wade (1:39:02.060)
You have to find that thing,
Lex Fridman (1:39:03.500)
and there's something about,
Magatte Wade (1:39:05.380)
when there's a freedom to find that thing,
Lex Fridman (1:39:07.300)
and people interact, they get excited about shit together,
Lex Fridman (1:39:10.020)
and then they build.
Lex Fridman (1:39:11.980)
If you look at authoritarian,
Magatte Wade (1:39:14.740)
at places that limit that freedom,
Lex Fridman (1:39:18.540)
at the core, I think, is the idea that people are dumb.
Magatte Wade (1:39:22.340)
Let us take care of everything.
Lex Fridman (1:39:24.140)
We'll come up with the rules and the regulations,
Magatte Wade (1:39:26.260)
because people are too dumb to manage things themselves.
Lex Fridman (1:39:28.940)
And then that idea builds on top of itself,
Magatte Wade (1:39:33.020)
where you think that the entire populace
Lex Fridman (1:39:35.820)
is much lesser than the wise sages sitting at the top.
Magatte Wade (1:39:39.620)
Then you add violence on top of that,
Lex Fridman (1:39:41.220)
and that leads to corruption,
Magatte Wade (1:39:43.620)
to corrupting of just the human mind of the leaders,
Lex Fridman (1:39:46.340)
and the whole thing becomes a giant mess.
Magatte Wade (1:39:49.780)
The antidote to that is economic freedom.
Lex Fridman (1:39:54.500)
For people to have a freedom to enterprise.
Lex Fridman (1:39:56.420)
And look, Lex, when we allow for that to happen,
Lex Fridman (1:40:01.540)
have you looked around lately
Lex Fridman (1:40:02.780)
and looked at the level of niche
Lex Fridman (1:40:06.020)
that has happened in this country?
Magatte Wade (1:40:08.020)
I mean, you have clubs where, you have places
Lex Fridman (1:40:11.380)
where people are into guitar strings,
Magatte Wade (1:40:13.100)
you know, like some of the,
Lex Fridman (1:40:14.140)
like it's all about guitar strings.
Lex Fridman (1:40:16.780)
And others, it's all about these best cupcakes.
Lex Fridman (1:40:19.780)
And others, it's all about this new crypto thing over here.
Lex Fridman (1:40:23.500)
And others, like hair, best, you know, weight.
Lex Fridman (1:40:27.980)
It's, when you allow us, because seven billion geniuses,
Magatte Wade (1:40:34.060)
each one of us, I believe,
Lex Fridman (1:40:35.380)
came to this world with something,
Magatte Wade (1:40:38.260)
something that only he or her possesses.
Lex Fridman (1:40:41.580)
And that is the genius,
Lex Fridman (1:40:43.060)
and it is their contribution to the human problem.
Lex Fridman (1:40:47.340)
When you think about your identity today,
Lex Fridman (1:40:49.460)
so it all started in Africa,
Lex Fridman (1:40:52.020)
just like it did for the entirety of the human species.
Magatte Wade (1:40:55.260)
There's a bit of European flavor in there,
Lex Fridman (1:40:57.100)
a little French, Silicon Valley.
Magatte Wade (1:41:00.900)
You're now, in part, a Texan.
Lex Fridman (1:41:05.100)
There's, you really are an American,
Lex Fridman (1:41:08.460)
but you're also an African.
Lex Fridman (1:41:11.540)
Who are you, when you look in the mirror,
Magatte Wade (1:41:13.740)
when you think about yourself,
Lex Fridman (1:41:15.020)
when you listen, when everything gets quiet
Lex Fridman (1:41:17.540)
and you listen to your heart, who are you?
Lex Fridman (1:41:20.420)
Can you figure out that puzzle?
Magatte Wade (1:41:23.860)
That's a very interesting question,
Lex Fridman (1:41:25.140)
because it's been a long time I haven't asked myself.
Magatte Wade (1:41:30.140)
I have before.
Lex Fridman (1:41:42.700)
What I have found is,
Magatte Wade (1:41:47.460)
I think who I am today has been, for sure,
Lex Fridman (1:41:50.980)
shaped by, I call it Dakar, Paris, San Francisco.
Magatte Wade (1:41:54.980)
Dakar is Senegal, Paris, France,
Lex Fridman (1:41:59.020)
and San Francisco, primarily.
Lex Fridman (1:42:01.020)
And now, yeah, I think I might want to ask,
Lex Fridman (1:42:02.700)
there's a little bit of Texan in there.
Lex Fridman (1:42:04.660)
How do you say Texas in French?
Lex Fridman (1:42:07.060)
Texas.
Magatte Wade (1:42:07.900)
Texas.
Lex Fridman (1:42:08.740)
Texas.
Magatte Wade (1:42:09.580)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:42:10.420)
Austin, Texas.
Magatte Wade (1:42:11.620)
Austin, Texas.
Lex Fridman (1:42:12.540)
Austin.
Magatte Wade (1:42:13.380)
Austin, Texas.
Lex Fridman (1:42:14.220)
It's easy.
Magatte Wade (1:42:15.540)
Not quite as good as San Francisco.
Lex Fridman (1:42:16.620)
Austin, Texas.
Magatte Wade (1:42:17.740)
Yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:42:18.700)
Us, Texas.
Magatte Wade (1:42:19.820)
Us.
Lex Fridman (1:42:20.660)
Texas, yeah.
Magatte Wade (1:42:22.140)
So,
Lex Fridman (1:42:22.980)
you, I was formed by those three.
Magatte Wade (1:42:30.260)
I have to say that what I enjoy from my Senegalese roots
Lex Fridman (1:42:35.500)
are our commitment to peace, love, and tolerance very much.
Lex Fridman (1:42:44.780)
And Taranga, obviously.
Lex Fridman (1:42:48.220)
And I like that it's a culture
Magatte Wade (1:42:50.500)
that's very much about reverence.
Lex Fridman (1:42:53.300)
It's, we're big on reverence.
Magatte Wade (1:42:56.420)
I don't think you could ever hear me tell an older person,
Lex Fridman (1:43:00.700)
especially not my parents or my grandma or anybody like that,
Magatte Wade (1:43:04.260)
for us to be able to tell an older person that's not true
Lex Fridman (1:43:08.540)
or you're lying would never cross my mind
Magatte Wade (1:43:11.500)
because that's the most disrespectful thing
Lex Fridman (1:43:12.900)
you can think of,
Magatte Wade (1:43:13.740)
the most irreverent thing you can think of.
Lex Fridman (1:43:15.780)
It doesn't mean that you have to agree
Magatte Wade (1:43:17.100)
with everything that's said,
Lex Fridman (1:43:19.260)
but there is a way to disagree.
Magatte Wade (1:43:21.860)
There is a way to push back
Lex Fridman (1:43:23.420)
that doesn't have to rob this person
Magatte Wade (1:43:25.700)
who happens to be older than you,
Lex Fridman (1:43:26.940)
especially from the dignity that older age normally provides.
Lex Fridman (1:43:31.980)
And there's wisdom to their words
Lex Fridman (1:43:33.740)
that you yourself may not see.
Lex Fridman (1:43:36.300)
So the reverence is for the idea of wisdom, of tradition.
Lex Fridman (1:43:40.340)
Exactly, exactly.
Lex Fridman (1:43:42.580)
And again, so that is something that I really enjoy,
Lex Fridman (1:43:46.980)
especially, and something I'm very attached to,
Magatte Wade (1:43:49.060)
to this day, and then from France,
Lex Fridman (1:43:52.900)
what I really came to enjoy, of course,
Magatte Wade (1:43:56.580)
is all the fineness that one can find
Lex Fridman (1:44:00.300)
within French culture.
Lex Fridman (1:44:02.100)
The fineness?
Lex Fridman (1:44:03.340)
Yeah, the fineness.
Magatte Wade (1:44:04.380)
Foods.
Lex Fridman (1:44:05.700)
You mean like the intricacies, like the very...
Magatte Wade (1:44:08.740)
Yeah, the soft sophistication in there.
Lex Fridman (1:44:11.620)
I mean, French lingerie, for example.
Magatte Wade (1:44:14.100)
I mean, la dentelle, the laces, all of that,
Lex Fridman (1:44:18.060)
it's super, it's exquisite.
Lex Fridman (1:44:22.580)
So the...
Lex Fridman (1:44:23.540)
The fashion, the food.
Magatte Wade (1:44:24.380)
The fashion, the food.
Lex Fridman (1:44:26.020)
I mean, there's something to be said about all of that,
Lex Fridman (1:44:27.500)
and it's very beautiful.
Lex Fridman (1:44:29.460)
And I love also, even when I talk about fineness,
Magatte Wade (1:44:32.660)
it's like a meal is not about this big thing
Lex Fridman (1:44:34.740)
they put in front of you,
Lex Fridman (1:44:36.020)
but smaller portions, enjoy what you're eating
Lex Fridman (1:44:39.180)
and spend time at a table.
Magatte Wade (1:44:40.220)
Like the eating time is not necessarily
Lex Fridman (1:44:42.380)
just this function of feeding yourself,
Magatte Wade (1:44:44.260)
which I understand it,
Lex Fridman (1:44:46.460)
but this is something that they share
Magatte Wade (1:44:49.540)
with Senegalese culture,
Lex Fridman (1:44:51.540)
is eating is a moment of communion.
Magatte Wade (1:44:55.180)
It's a moment of friendship, family.
Lex Fridman (1:44:57.940)
It's a precious moment.
Magatte Wade (1:45:00.580)
To this day, and my husband is American,
Lex Fridman (1:45:03.780)
we eat our meals together all the time.
Magatte Wade (1:45:07.220)
I would not have it any other way.
Lex Fridman (1:45:09.100)
And there's a prep time, all of that stuff.
Magatte Wade (1:45:11.100)
It doesn't matter how busy I am, but we're doing it.
Lex Fridman (1:45:13.820)
Actually, to push back a little bit,
Magatte Wade (1:45:15.500)
it's interesting, because yeah,
Lex Fridman (1:45:16.460)
the camaraderie over a meal is a beautiful thing.
Magatte Wade (1:45:20.140)
I got, I mean, I was in a pretty dark place
Lex Fridman (1:45:22.940)
because on the way to Ukraine,
Magatte Wade (1:45:24.260)
I traveled to Paris, I stayed in Paris,
Lex Fridman (1:45:26.300)
and I wasn't able to enjoy the fineness
Magatte Wade (1:45:31.740)
because it was almost a distraction
Lex Fridman (1:45:33.620)
from the humanity for some reason to me,
Magatte Wade (1:45:36.340)
because there's such a focus on the art of it all
Lex Fridman (1:45:40.020)
that you lose the basic connection to humanity.
Magatte Wade (1:45:42.540)
Now, that said.
Lex Fridman (1:45:44.260)
Depends what you're talking about.
Magatte Wade (1:45:45.620)
I think some of the lack of connection over humanity
Lex Fridman (1:45:48.700)
was the fact that while I did know how to speak French
Magatte Wade (1:45:51.700)
for a long time, I forgot most of the language.
Lex Fridman (1:45:55.260)
And so part of it, there is a barrier.
Magatte Wade (1:45:58.100)
You said hospitality.
Lex Fridman (1:46:00.540)
There is a bit of a barrier in French culture
Magatte Wade (1:46:03.340)
to where in order to be welcomed in,
Lex Fridman (1:46:05.900)
you have to hear the music
Lex Fridman (1:46:09.380)
and be able to play the music of the people.
Lex Fridman (1:46:12.220)
And if you don't, there's a bit of a barrier.
Magatte Wade (1:46:16.380)
I must admit on that end that it is true.
Lex Fridman (1:46:19.780)
You would feel less that
Magatte Wade (1:46:21.580)
if you were with a group of Senegalese people per se,
Lex Fridman (1:46:24.060)
or I would even say if a group of Spanish people.
Lex Fridman (1:46:28.380)
And I think this is maybe the other side
Lex Fridman (1:46:31.060)
of it for the French people.
Magatte Wade (1:46:32.580)
They can be a little bit uppity up there.
Lex Fridman (1:46:35.140)
And I think maybe that's what you're sensing there.
Magatte Wade (1:46:38.340)
If you don't have the codes,
Lex Fridman (1:46:40.260)
which is what you call if you don't sing the music,
Magatte Wade (1:46:42.860)
then it's hard for you to be part of it.
Lex Fridman (1:46:45.420)
But I was speaking here from the standpoint of your inn.
Magatte Wade (1:46:48.580)
Yeah, from the inside.
Lex Fridman (1:46:51.020)
Also, come on, coming from Texas and also Ukraine,
Magatte Wade (1:46:54.940)
Ukraine, I should say some of the best steak and meat
Lex Fridman (1:46:58.500)
I've ever had, cheap.
Magatte Wade (1:47:01.660)
Texas, some of the greatest.
Lex Fridman (1:47:03.140)
And the size of the meals in France,
Lex Fridman (1:47:06.940)
it's like, what are we doing here?
Lex Fridman (1:47:08.500)
I mean, I get it's art.
Magatte Wade (1:47:11.820)
I'd like to look at my art on the wall
Lex Fridman (1:47:14.580)
and then eat my damn steak.
Magatte Wade (1:47:16.540)
I just wanna cut the shit.
Lex Fridman (1:47:17.380)
Did you go, so maybe, okay, no, no, no, no.
Magatte Wade (1:47:18.980)
Okay, now here I have to defend them,
Lex Fridman (1:47:20.300)
although sometimes I'm the worst.
Lex Fridman (1:47:22.060)
Now, did you go to some Michelin star restaurant?
Lex Fridman (1:47:25.420)
Maybe that's why.
Magatte Wade (1:47:26.260)
Yeah, a little bit, a little bit.
Lex Fridman (1:47:27.100)
That's why, because next time you go to France,
Magatte Wade (1:47:29.580)
I'll take you to the countryside or any French home.
Lex Fridman (1:47:35.740)
They will serve you multiple times.
Magatte Wade (1:47:38.020)
I mean, by the time you're done,
Lex Fridman (1:47:41.260)
even if the portions are smaller,
Magatte Wade (1:47:43.220)
they're smaller if you want to,
Lex Fridman (1:47:44.060)
but because that way you get a chance
Magatte Wade (1:47:45.860)
to really feel what you're eating and then have more
Lex Fridman (1:47:48.620)
and then all of that stuff, but not be like, ah, like this.
Lex Fridman (1:47:50.620)
And then, but no, you'll eat plenty,
Lex Fridman (1:47:52.900)
but it's because you went to the Michelin places
Magatte Wade (1:47:54.980)
where they were like.
Lex Fridman (1:47:55.820)
I'm sure the warmth of the people is there.
Magatte Wade (1:47:58.100)
It almost makes me sad that sometimes,
Lex Fridman (1:48:00.580)
I think to properly be in a place,
Magatte Wade (1:48:02.460)
you really should spend a long time there.
Lex Fridman (1:48:05.060)
And also be emotionally ready.
Magatte Wade (1:48:06.620)
Again, I was emotionally unavailable.
Lex Fridman (1:48:09.340)
I was just like.
Magatte Wade (1:48:10.180)
Well, I would imagine on the way to the Ukraine,
Lex Fridman (1:48:11.380)
I'm like, who can think about food?
Lex Fridman (1:48:13.180)
But in your identity, a bit of Texas,
Lex Fridman (1:48:16.180)
a bit of San Francisco, a bit of Africa.
Magatte Wade (1:48:18.860)
Yeah, San Francisco.
Lex Fridman (1:48:20.540)
And I guess from the America,
Magatte Wade (1:48:23.620)
the defining thing for me for America is,
Lex Fridman (1:48:27.980)
it's the freedom and the entrepreneurial mindset.
Magatte Wade (1:48:33.100)
See, very quickly when I moved from France
Lex Fridman (1:48:35.860)
to the United States,
Lex Fridman (1:48:37.420)
and I started becoming successful in the United States,
Lex Fridman (1:48:40.540)
I found myself, me and my husband,
Magatte Wade (1:48:42.460)
he was French and my first husband who passed away.
Lex Fridman (1:48:45.860)
We found ourselves at some point,
Magatte Wade (1:48:47.180)
we stopped talking to our friends in France
Lex Fridman (1:48:50.500)
who stayed in France,
Magatte Wade (1:48:53.420)
because we were talking to them about things
Lex Fridman (1:48:55.820)
that were so outside of their comprehension.
Lex Fridman (1:49:00.340)
What do you mean you're in your twenties
Lex Fridman (1:49:04.260)
and you just raised, I don't know,
Magatte Wade (1:49:09.260)
a million dollars or $2 million,
Lex Fridman (1:49:10.700)
especially from back in those days.
Magatte Wade (1:49:11.860)
Today, it's easy here and there.
Lex Fridman (1:49:13.500)
So even in France,
Magatte Wade (1:49:14.540)
that entrepreneurial spirit didn't burn quite as bright.
Lex Fridman (1:49:16.740)
I mean, don't take me wrong.
Lex Fridman (1:49:19.540)
Do you have some entrepreneurial people in France?
Lex Fridman (1:49:21.500)
Yeah, but to the level that you have it in the US,
Magatte Wade (1:49:23.820)
absolutely not.
Lex Fridman (1:49:24.940)
It's just, I mean, in France, it's still very much,
Magatte Wade (1:49:28.060)
you're born in this area,
Lex Fridman (1:49:29.540)
you go to school in that area,
Magatte Wade (1:49:30.980)
your parents live around,
Lex Fridman (1:49:32.220)
eventually you'll marry and be where your parents are
Magatte Wade (1:49:35.020)
or maybe go to where your spouse's parents are
Lex Fridman (1:49:38.220)
and you buy your house and you buy it once
Lex Fridman (1:49:40.660)
and you're not gonna do like the Americans,
Lex Fridman (1:49:42.580)
two years later, I sell my house, I go somewhere else.
Magatte Wade (1:49:44.700)
You don't have any of anything.
Lex Fridman (1:49:45.940)
What do you mean, just stopping from nowhere,
Lex Fridman (1:49:48.940)
you're gonna do what?
Lex Fridman (1:49:50.340)
Start a business and you have nothing to back you up
Magatte Wade (1:49:52.620)
or whatever.
Lex Fridman (1:49:53.460)
Oh, and even this idea of going and fundraising,
Magatte Wade (1:49:57.740)
this venture cap, especially back in the days,
Lex Fridman (1:49:59.700)
venture cap, all of that, it's very American.
Magatte Wade (1:50:02.020)
We take it for granted, but it's very American.
Lex Fridman (1:50:03.540)
Who would have made a bet on me in France?
Magatte Wade (1:50:06.420)
The same person.
Lex Fridman (1:50:07.620)
I would not have found the same people.
Magatte Wade (1:50:09.460)
I would never in France have been able to raise,
Lex Fridman (1:50:13.740)
at some point it was $32 million for my first business,
Magatte Wade (1:50:16.020)
never would have been able to do that in France.
Lex Fridman (1:50:18.420)
And it doesn't mean that French people are bad people
Magatte Wade (1:50:19.900)
or anything like that.
Lex Fridman (1:50:20.740)
It's just something that's just not so in the culture.
Magatte Wade (1:50:24.540)
Just like this whole concept of philanthropy,
Lex Fridman (1:50:27.100)
it's not that the French people don't do philanthropy,
Lex Fridman (1:50:29.180)
but philanthropy in America is very different
Lex Fridman (1:50:31.620)
from the level and also the magnitude
Magatte Wade (1:50:34.260)
of maybe what the French people do.
Lex Fridman (1:50:35.900)
And also they have this always like,
Magatte Wade (1:50:37.940)
oh, let's do it behind the scene.
Lex Fridman (1:50:39.660)
Money is suspicious, success is suspicious.
Lex Fridman (1:50:42.420)
So at some point my husband and I just felt like
Lex Fridman (1:50:44.500)
our friends actually were maybe thinking
Magatte Wade (1:50:46.020)
that we're maybe some drug dealers or something.
Lex Fridman (1:50:47.860)
So we just stopped because it just was not flowing anymore.
Lex Fridman (1:50:51.020)
And so yes, in America I found this entrepreneurial spirit,
Lex Fridman (1:50:56.020)
but then I was able to link it with something
Magatte Wade (1:50:59.020)
that I'm very familiar with in my country.
Lex Fridman (1:51:01.220)
See, back home in Senegal, I'm part of this,
Magatte Wade (1:51:04.700)
you have what we call the Mourid, I'm a Mourid.
Lex Fridman (1:51:07.020)
So what it is is one of the four brotherhoods in Senegal,
Magatte Wade (1:51:11.060)
Mouridism is the most influential of them
Lex Fridman (1:51:13.380)
and the biggest one.
Lex Fridman (1:51:14.580)
And us, it's all about entrepreneurship as well.
Lex Fridman (1:51:17.900)
I mean, of course there's the whole religious part,
Lex Fridman (1:51:21.020)
but our mantra is,
Lex Fridman (1:51:23.700)
pray as if you will die tomorrow
Lex Fridman (1:51:26.020)
and work as if you will never die.
Lex Fridman (1:51:28.180)
And the way we say,
Magatte Wade (1:51:29.780)
the way somebody will say that somebody passed away,
Lex Fridman (1:51:32.300)
we say, somebody has retired.
Magatte Wade (1:51:34.940)
Somebody has retired from their work.
Lex Fridman (1:51:36.940)
Right?
Magatte Wade (1:51:37.780)
Beautiful.
Lex Fridman (1:51:38.620)
Right?
Magatte Wade (1:51:39.460)
So, I think it's funny because in that community,
Lex Fridman (1:51:44.620)
we're very much entrepreneurial,
Magatte Wade (1:51:46.860)
left to our own devices, we're entrepreneurial.
Lex Fridman (1:51:50.220)
But then what happens is the minute that we die,
Magatte Wade (1:51:52.620)
then what happens is the minute people start going to,
Lex Fridman (1:51:55.500)
they're being educated through the education system,
Magatte Wade (1:51:57.860)
you know, like the French, especially the system,
Lex Fridman (1:51:59.900)
but tend to breed more like, you know,
Magatte Wade (1:52:01.700)
the French bureaucrat mindset,
Lex Fridman (1:52:03.380)
then you can see all the entrepreneurial mindset
Magatte Wade (1:52:05.580)
kind of starting to dwindle down.
Lex Fridman (1:52:07.940)
So it's kind of very interesting.
Lex Fridman (1:52:09.460)
So in a way, America helped me reunite
Lex Fridman (1:52:13.060)
with that side of my roots,
Magatte Wade (1:52:15.260)
where America tells me, reinforces that side of my roots
Lex Fridman (1:52:20.260)
and also gives me more tools to practice
Magatte Wade (1:52:22.940)
that side of my roots, if that makes any sense.
Lex Fridman (1:52:25.820)
Through all of that, that's what brings out
Magatte Wade (1:52:29.060)
the heart of a cheetah, which I think is a beautiful,
Lex Fridman (1:52:31.460)
beautiful thing that encapsulates that whole trajectory,
Magatte Wade (1:52:36.580)
which I think is the best possible answer
Lex Fridman (1:52:38.820)
anyone could give.
Magatte Wade (1:52:39.780)
It makes me want to really think about who I am,
Lex Fridman (1:52:44.180)
because you really have brought together
Lex Fridman (1:52:47.100)
so many cultures within yourself
Lex Fridman (1:52:49.220)
that just talking to you makes you feel like
Magatte Wade (1:52:52.220)
we are just all one people.
Lex Fridman (1:52:54.260)
Because at the end we are, at the end we are.
Magatte Wade (1:52:58.220)
And, you know, when you come from,
Lex Fridman (1:53:00.660)
at the end we are, and also I think for me,
Magatte Wade (1:53:03.420)
if people can take anything from my story,
Lex Fridman (1:53:05.500)
it's at the end of the day, I am very clear about it.
Lex Fridman (1:53:07.700)
And I'm all for harmony among people
Lex Fridman (1:53:11.260)
and among us peoples.
Magatte Wade (1:53:13.820)
If we can accept that we're all,
Lex Fridman (1:53:20.020)
I know this sounds so cliche, but for me it's so true,
Magatte Wade (1:53:23.300)
that we're all humans.
Lex Fridman (1:53:24.860)
You know, when I left Senegal,
Magatte Wade (1:53:27.660)
when I was about to leave Senegal for the first time
Lex Fridman (1:53:30.060)
and to go to Europe to be reunited with my parents,
Magatte Wade (1:53:33.340)
because now they had emigrated
Lex Fridman (1:53:35.500)
and things were going to be fine.
Lex Fridman (1:53:37.500)
And I was going to be, things were stable for them.
Lex Fridman (1:53:40.900)
Now they're like, it's time to be reunited with her.
Magatte Wade (1:53:43.780)
They brought me over, but before I left Senegal,
Lex Fridman (1:53:46.300)
my grandma sat me down.
Magatte Wade (1:53:47.780)
She actually, she lowered herself down to my level
Lex Fridman (1:53:50.180)
and she said, my god, you're about to go to this place
Magatte Wade (1:53:54.060)
where most people will not look like you.
Lex Fridman (1:53:57.980)
And most people speak a language
Magatte Wade (1:53:59.900)
that's going to be different from yours.
Lex Fridman (1:54:02.220)
And you're going to realize that all the kids
Magatte Wade (1:54:03.580)
are going to school and you've never been to school
Lex Fridman (1:54:05.740)
because, you know, I was, like I said, a free range kid
Lex Fridman (1:54:07.660)
and I was just living my life.
Lex Fridman (1:54:09.660)
And she said, but I don't want for any of that,
Lex Fridman (1:54:13.700)
and she showed her words, she said,
Lex Fridman (1:54:14.820)
I don't want for any of that to intimidate you.
Magatte Wade (1:54:18.420)
She said, you can be impressed by some of it if you want,
Lex Fridman (1:54:21.340)
but no intimidation.
Lex Fridman (1:54:23.260)
And she said, because the fact
Lex Fridman (1:54:24.980)
that they might be different from you,
Magatte Wade (1:54:26.020)
yeah, they're going to have a different skin color from you,
Lex Fridman (1:54:28.060)
but it is still human skin.
Magatte Wade (1:54:30.940)
You're human, they're human.
Lex Fridman (1:54:32.860)
And she said, this language you're going to speak,
Magatte Wade (1:54:35.300)
it's a different language from yours,
Lex Fridman (1:54:37.420)
but it is still a language that humans speak.
Magatte Wade (1:54:41.020)
You're human, they're human.
Lex Fridman (1:54:42.340)
Therefore, you're going to speak it.
Lex Fridman (1:54:44.660)
And lastly, they have gone to school.
Lex Fridman (1:54:47.540)
Going to school is what little humans do.
Magatte Wade (1:54:49.620)
You're a little human, so you'll be just fine.
Lex Fridman (1:54:52.740)
And I went and grandma was right.
Magatte Wade (1:54:54.860)
Right, she was right.
Lex Fridman (1:54:56.540)
And that helped me.
Lex Fridman (1:54:58.500)
And I think when you internalize that so early on,
Lex Fridman (1:55:05.260)
it just makes you belong to the human family
Magatte Wade (1:55:07.220)
that you're part of.
Lex Fridman (1:55:08.220)
I am part of a human family.
Lex Fridman (1:55:10.260)
And I would have no problem going to Russia, for example,
Lex Fridman (1:55:12.860)
let's take, and be totally open.
Magatte Wade (1:55:16.260)
Maybe don't go right now, but.
Lex Fridman (1:55:17.620)
No, not now.
Magatte Wade (1:55:18.460)
Maybe not now, you're right.
Lex Fridman (1:55:19.460)
But what I just.
Magatte Wade (1:55:20.300)
Or at least don't bring weed if you go on the plane.
Lex Fridman (1:55:22.820)
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, yeah, right.
Magatte Wade (1:55:25.820)
That girl, I don't know what she was thinking, but.
Lex Fridman (1:55:28.500)
No, so, but what I'm trying to say, Lex,
Magatte Wade (1:55:30.900)
is I feel like I can go anywhere in the world,
Lex Fridman (1:55:34.260)
including some of the most unfriendly places in the world
Magatte Wade (1:55:38.380)
to someone like me, because there are places like that.
Lex Fridman (1:55:41.460)
And yet I know, I know that somehow, somewhere,
Magatte Wade (1:55:47.260)
someone will take care of me.
Lex Fridman (1:55:48.860)
Someone will help me.
Magatte Wade (1:55:50.460)
When I first came to this country,
Lex Fridman (1:55:54.980)
I came as a tourist, but you had this amazing family
Magatte Wade (1:56:00.420)
who had a business, a family business in Indiana,
Lex Fridman (1:56:03.940)
Columbus, Indiana, the Wences, Carolyn Eldon Wence,
Magatte Wade (1:56:08.700)
I owe them everything that I have in this country,
Lex Fridman (1:56:10.700)
that I am in this country.
Magatte Wade (1:56:12.380)
They are Americans in the mid America
Lex Fridman (1:56:17.420)
from a place that most other Americans
Magatte Wade (1:56:19.340)
would maybe look down on because,
Lex Fridman (1:56:22.020)
and some people would be like, oh, you're going to this place
Magatte Wade (1:56:23.620)
where they have more churches and cows than people,
Lex Fridman (1:56:26.460)
that type of behavior, because the elite coastal elites,
Lex Fridman (1:56:30.820)
but it is in Midwest, in the Midwest that I found,
Lex Fridman (1:56:35.900)
that I, black young women coming out of nowhere,
Magatte Wade (1:56:41.300)
found support.
Lex Fridman (1:56:43.100)
They all rallied around me.
Magatte Wade (1:56:44.540)
I didn't even come from the same faith as they are from,
Lex Fridman (1:56:47.420)
yet their whole church rallied around me
Magatte Wade (1:56:49.860)
to find me an apartment.
Lex Fridman (1:56:52.580)
My host family found me, got me a job,
Lex Fridman (1:56:55.540)
and it was not a pity job.
Lex Fridman (1:56:57.500)
They were like, we need, we are in serious needs
Magatte Wade (1:56:59.980)
of getting our accounting under control
Lex Fridman (1:57:02.260)
and our marketing and all of that.
Lex Fridman (1:57:03.460)
And I had to catch up years of accounting like to the cent
Lex Fridman (1:57:07.380)
and come up with marketing, all of that.
Lex Fridman (1:57:09.940)
And I did it way faster than they thought
Lex Fridman (1:57:11.660)
I would ever be able to do that.
Magatte Wade (1:57:13.100)
At some point they look at me and they're like,
Lex Fridman (1:57:14.460)
look, there is a future for you.
Lex Fridman (1:57:17.260)
And we are too small for that future.
Lex Fridman (1:57:19.780)
And now we could be selfish and keep you here with us.
Lex Fridman (1:57:23.220)
And we would want nothing more than that
Lex Fridman (1:57:25.540)
because really they're like my parents to this day.
Magatte Wade (1:57:27.540)
I just came back from seeing them.
Lex Fridman (1:57:29.180)
And they said, but there's so much more for you
Lex Fridman (1:57:32.260)
and we don't have it.
Lex Fridman (1:57:33.620)
So we want you to go and find out what it is.
Lex Fridman (1:57:36.140)
And that's eventually when I,
Lex Fridman (1:57:37.940)
because something was brewing up in San Francisco
Magatte Wade (1:57:41.180)
when I say I left my heart in San Francisco
Lex Fridman (1:57:43.500)
because the man who would become my husband,
Magatte Wade (1:57:47.340)
we went to the same business school in France,
Lex Fridman (1:57:48.820)
but then he was older than me.
Lex Fridman (1:57:50.180)
So he had come to San Francisco and started a business there.
Lex Fridman (1:57:53.380)
And it just looked like there was something there.
Lex Fridman (1:57:55.140)
And Scarola was like, you gotta go to San Francisco
Lex Fridman (1:57:57.220)
and find out with Emmanuel what's going on.
Lex Fridman (1:57:59.180)
So I went and I left my heart in San Francisco.
Lex Fridman (1:58:00.580)
I came back and I'm like, okay, I'm leaving.
Magatte Wade (1:58:02.460)
Here's the keys to my apartment.
Lex Fridman (1:58:03.700)
What, I don't understand.
Lex Fridman (1:58:04.900)
But I'm like, I'm out of here.
Lex Fridman (1:58:06.660)
So no, but Carol, so this is it.
Magatte Wade (1:58:08.940)
This is what I'm saying, especially in these times
Lex Fridman (1:58:11.180)
when this country loves to dwell on,
Magatte Wade (1:58:14.820)
you're bad because you have this skin color.
Lex Fridman (1:58:16.620)
Here are people with a completely different skin color
Magatte Wade (1:58:18.540)
than mine, completely different faith than mine,
Lex Fridman (1:58:20.820)
yet embraced me, protected me, paid for my visa,
Magatte Wade (1:58:25.820)
you know, for my lawyer, for my H1B, everything,
Lex Fridman (1:58:29.820)
and also played emotional support for me.
Lex Fridman (1:58:33.660)
And no one, no one asked them to do that.
Lex Fridman (1:58:36.580)
They didn't have to do it.
Magatte Wade (1:58:38.020)
They didn't.
Lex Fridman (1:58:38.860)
So what I'm saying is,
Lex Fridman (1:58:39.700)
and this has been the story of my life,
Lex Fridman (1:58:41.780)
everywhere I go, regardless of the hostility around me,
Magatte Wade (1:58:46.100)
you betcha that there's always,
Lex Fridman (1:58:48.180)
always gonna be somebody who shows up for you.
Lex Fridman (1:58:51.300)
And somebody who's at the extremes,
Lex Fridman (1:58:53.540)
at the antipodes of where you are and who you are.
Lex Fridman (1:58:56.820)
And that tells me something.
Lex Fridman (1:58:59.300)
In the end, we are good people.
Magatte Wade (1:59:01.020)
Most people are good people.
Lex Fridman (1:59:02.620)
And there's so much power to that,
Magatte Wade (1:59:05.500)
the internalizing of this idea that we're all just human
Lex Fridman (1:59:10.620)
and there's human kindness all around us.
Magatte Wade (1:59:13.100)
I've seen it a lot where people internalize that
Lex Fridman (1:59:17.780)
and they're able to walk lightly amidst hate
Lex Fridman (1:59:21.420)
and walk past it and it doesn't stick to them
Lex Fridman (1:59:29.020)
in a way that they build resentment and it paralyzes them.
Magatte Wade (1:59:33.060)
If they internalize the world as human,
Lex Fridman (1:59:35.940)
they can be in the, just like you said,
Magatte Wade (1:59:37.820)
in the worst places in the world for them.
Lex Fridman (1:59:40.620)
And someone, somewhere that human magic and touch is there.
Magatte Wade (1:59:44.420)
Yeah, it will find them.
Lex Fridman (1:59:46.820)
It will find, yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman (1:59:48.460)
And you know, the other thing too, Lex is,
Lex Fridman (1:59:50.300)
especially in these times we're walking in,
Magatte Wade (1:59:53.060)
it is to remind yourself,
Lex Fridman (1:59:55.620)
I think this is where we all are called
Magatte Wade (1:59:58.300)
to practice more courage.
Lex Fridman (20:00.800)
But where things come up is,
Magatte Wade (20:05.000)
especially nowadays with the African youth,
Lex Fridman (20:07.760)
when we have to be reminded of the World Bank,
Magatte Wade (20:10.520)
when we have to be reminded of even the world,
Lex Fridman (20:13.360)
places like the World Economic Forum,
Magatte Wade (20:14.640)
you know, like all of these places that seem to constitute,
Lex Fridman (20:19.880)
they would, the way they describe them,
Magatte Wade (20:22.120)
when I say they, it's primarily my Pan African friends.
Lex Fridman (20:26.200)
So here maybe terms are worth describing.
Lex Fridman (20:30.480)
So the Pan African movement goes way back when,
Lex Fridman (20:37.280)
we're talking about, you know, way back when,
Magatte Wade (20:39.680)
started in the thirties going on all the way from there.
Lex Fridman (20:44.760)
So what you have there is people
Magatte Wade (20:47.800)
who have started coming together
Lex Fridman (20:50.680)
and dreaming up an emancipated Africa
Magatte Wade (20:54.240)
away from the colonies,
Lex Fridman (20:55.840)
because at that point there were still colonies
Lex Fridman (20:57.960)
and dreaming up all of that.
Lex Fridman (20:59.440)
So we're talking about people like Kwame Kuma of Ghana,
Magatte Wade (21:02.560)
we're talking about Julius Nyerere of Tanzania,
Lex Fridman (21:04.840)
talking about Blaise Diagne of Senegal
Lex Fridman (21:06.920)
and other people like that, Bandi of Malawi.
Lex Fridman (21:09.520)
So anyway, so, and the African youth of today,
Magatte Wade (21:12.960)
we're still hanging on to those,
Lex Fridman (21:15.240)
onto some of these ideas of,
Lex Fridman (21:16.800)
and on some of these dreams of a reunited Africa.
Lex Fridman (21:19.880)
So when you were talking about what seems to unite you,
Magatte Wade (21:22.880)
there is that, you know, also,
Lex Fridman (21:25.200)
meaning like we all feel like we're part of the same family.
Lex Fridman (21:27.960)
Is it only in our heads?
Lex Fridman (21:29.320)
Is it in reality?
Magatte Wade (21:30.160)
Many, for many different reasons,
Lex Fridman (21:31.640)
there is definitely what we call a Pan African movement.
Lex Fridman (21:34.400)
And I very much myself, consider myself one of them.
Lex Fridman (21:38.400)
I don't agree all the time with our,
Magatte Wade (21:40.480)
where we want to go and how we want to go there,
Lex Fridman (21:42.880)
but not where we want to go.
Magatte Wade (21:45.320)
Where we want to go is we would love to see
Lex Fridman (21:46.920)
a united Africa for sure.
Lex Fridman (21:48.640)
But how to get that accomplished,
Lex Fridman (21:50.360)
that's where oftentimes we have issues.
Lex Fridman (21:52.440)
So on something like that,
Lex Fridman (21:55.440)
so this Pan African, especially the Pan African youth,
Lex Fridman (21:57.760)
but it's beyond the Pan African youth,
Lex Fridman (21:59.840)
it's the youth in general in Africa,
Magatte Wade (22:02.440)
World Bank, UN, all of these organizations
Lex Fridman (22:04.960)
that they tend to qualify as imperialist organizations.
Lex Fridman (22:09.600)
And it's not always a correct way to describe them,
Lex Fridman (22:12.320)
but I'm sure you get the sentiment.
Lex Fridman (22:14.440)
And from that place, there is tons of resentment
Lex Fridman (22:19.800)
because for the longest time,
Magatte Wade (22:22.000)
these groups, organizations,
Lex Fridman (22:24.680)
and some that preceded them,
Magatte Wade (22:27.160)
have proceeded to actually decide
Lex Fridman (22:30.600)
what even our new frontiers would be.
Magatte Wade (22:33.520)
You see, when you go to a place like Senegal,
Lex Fridman (22:35.640)
Mali, all of that, different countries,
Lex Fridman (22:37.720)
but we were one people,
Lex Fridman (22:40.160)
one group, one kingdom.
Lex Fridman (22:42.400)
And then at some point they decided just,
Lex Fridman (22:45.400)
when you look at Africa,
Lex Fridman (22:46.240)
have you looked at how straight some of these borders are?
Lex Fridman (22:48.960)
You're like, did a robot just draw these?
Lex Fridman (22:51.320)
Really?
Lex Fridman (22:52.160)
No offense to robots.
Magatte Wade (22:53.000)
No offense to robot, especially this one,
Lex Fridman (22:54.520)
he looks so cute.
Lex Fridman (22:55.400)
But you know what I mean?
Lex Fridman (22:56.520)
So they have continued deciding
Lex Fridman (23:02.680)
what it would be to be us,
Lex Fridman (23:06.440)
to live on our land,
Lex Fridman (23:08.440)
and how do we even progress?
Lex Fridman (23:10.240)
And it just keeps on going.
Magatte Wade (23:11.880)
They get to decide how are we gonna,
Lex Fridman (23:16.800)
which type of even economic development path
Lex Fridman (23:19.120)
are we gonna choose or not?
Lex Fridman (23:20.440)
So it's very, so from that standpoint,
Magatte Wade (23:22.600)
yes, there's a lot of resentment,
Lex Fridman (23:23.920)
including even from people like me.
Magatte Wade (23:25.680)
Yeah, and it's interesting that the invader
Lex Fridman (23:27.520)
and the oppressor and the empires
Magatte Wade (23:29.520)
have actually created a force for unity.
Lex Fridman (23:33.240)
I've seen that in Ukraine and the invasion of Ukraine,
Magatte Wade (23:36.920)
where it was a pretty divided,
Lex Fridman (23:38.760)
not a pretty, a very divided country with many factions.
Lex Fridman (23:41.680)
But the invasion really forced everyone to think
Lex Fridman (23:45.800)
about the identity of this nation together,
Magatte Wade (23:48.760)
beyond factions, beyond all of that.
Lex Fridman (23:51.200)
It allowed it to look at its history and its future.
Magatte Wade (23:54.800)
Like they all say that all great nations
Lex Fridman (23:57.520)
have had to have a war of independence.
Lex Fridman (24:00.560)
And this is our war to find our own identity.
Lex Fridman (24:04.640)
And so in that sense, Africa as one place,
Magatte Wade (24:09.360)
as one continent had to find multiple times its identity
Lex Fridman (24:14.800)
through the resistance of the oppressor.
Magatte Wade (24:17.200)
Especially subterranean Africa,
Lex Fridman (24:18.840)
especially subterranean Africa, yes.
Lex Fridman (24:20.680)
And there's an interesting aspect to this
Lex Fridman (24:22.080)
because the president of Senegal is also
Magatte Wade (24:23.920)
the head of the African Union.
Lex Fridman (24:26.880)
So we'll talk about the fascinating geopolitics
Magatte Wade (24:30.120)
of that whole situation.
Lex Fridman (24:33.520)
But let me ask in general,
Magatte Wade (24:36.120)
you talk about this question, this fascinating question,
Lex Fridman (24:41.200)
what does it take for a country to prosper?
Lex Fridman (24:44.880)
What does it take for a country to prosper?
Lex Fridman (24:48.000)
You see many countries in the world that really struggle
Lex Fridman (24:51.960)
and many that flourish.
Lex Fridman (24:54.520)
And it's not always obvious why
Magatte Wade (24:56.880)
because some have natural resources, some don't.
Lex Fridman (25:00.360)
Some have wars, some don't.
Magatte Wade (25:04.960)
Some have sort of authoritarian regimes, some don't.
Lex Fridman (25:11.080)
And some have democracies and all that kind of stuff.
Lex Fridman (25:13.480)
So the dynamics aren't exactly obvious.
Lex Fridman (25:16.160)
Is there commonalities?
Magatte Wade (25:18.200)
Is there fundamental ideas that result
Lex Fridman (25:22.720)
in a prosperity of a nation?
Magatte Wade (25:24.800)
Today, I can confidently say yes,
Lex Fridman (25:27.440)
despite all the differences that you talked about.
Lex Fridman (25:29.880)
And I think then this is where it becomes very important
Lex Fridman (25:33.320)
that we are very clear about the question you asked me.
Lex Fridman (25:37.320)
You said, what does it take to make a country prosperous?
Lex Fridman (25:41.720)
So I'm just gonna stick to prosperity
Magatte Wade (25:44.240)
because prosperity doesn't necessarily mean,
Lex Fridman (25:46.960)
sometimes it has nothing to do with maybe how
Lex Fridman (25:50.080)
you conduct yourself otherwise, socially speaking, right?
Lex Fridman (25:56.080)
So you can be prosperous.
Lex Fridman (25:58.680)
And still when it comes to your family laws,
Lex Fridman (26:02.080)
all the way you approach the other aspects of your life,
Magatte Wade (26:04.560)
maybe you're running a very communist lifestyle
Lex Fridman (26:08.960)
or you're in a very liberal society.
Lex Fridman (26:14.760)
So for me, when we talk about prosperity,
Lex Fridman (26:16.560)
I just want to make sure that we're clear on that
Magatte Wade (26:18.480)
because some people might say that,
Lex Fridman (26:19.920)
might be somewhere and be like,
Magatte Wade (26:21.400)
well, because I know what I'm gonna talk to you about next.
Lex Fridman (26:25.000)
And some people are gonna sit there and be like,
Magatte Wade (26:26.080)
well, China is not like that.
Lex Fridman (26:27.640)
Or even Dubai is not like that.
Magatte Wade (26:32.560)
No, so what I'm talking about is this thing.
Lex Fridman (26:34.520)
And that's what I love about this.
Magatte Wade (26:35.600)
If we just stick to the word prosperity.
Lex Fridman (26:37.600)
To me, I see prosperity as this.
Magatte Wade (26:38.920)
It's like, economically speaking,
Lex Fridman (26:40.400)
what are we gonna be to be a prosperous nation?
Magatte Wade (26:43.040)
Meaning we are a middle to high income nation.
Lex Fridman (26:46.680)
I'm not talking about what are the rights of your women
Lex Fridman (26:50.160)
to vote or can people live like this?
Lex Fridman (26:54.200)
Or I'm not talking about any of that.
Magatte Wade (26:56.600)
Economic, fundamentally economic prosperity.
Lex Fridman (27:00.200)
Because I think that distinction is very important
Magatte Wade (27:01.960)
because over the years,
Lex Fridman (27:03.000)
I've seen people push back on all types of things
Lex Fridman (27:05.200)
and it occurred to me
Lex Fridman (27:06.320)
that that's what the misunderstanding was there.
Lex Fridman (27:08.720)
So if we're gonna talk about prosperity,
Lex Fridman (27:11.120)
making sure that the country can make money
Lex Fridman (27:13.160)
so that it can take care of its needs
Lex Fridman (27:15.000)
and the needs of its citizens,
Magatte Wade (27:17.320)
then what I have come to find is that at the root of that
Lex Fridman (27:22.640)
is gonna be what we call economic freedom
Lex Fridman (27:25.400)
and what I call the toolkit of the entrepreneur.
Lex Fridman (27:28.280)
In that you can put the rule of law,
Magatte Wade (27:30.360)
you can put the concept of clear
Lex Fridman (27:32.120)
and transferable property rights.
Magatte Wade (27:34.960)
Economic freedom is at all the levels
Lex Fridman (27:37.840)
that which will allow entrepreneurs
Lex Fridman (27:42.600)
and business people to create value
Lex Fridman (27:46.960)
and create value entrepreneurially.
Magatte Wade (27:48.840)
We're not talking about rent seeking or anything like that.
Lex Fridman (27:51.040)
It's like you found a pie to be this big
Lex Fridman (27:53.400)
and you make it this big.
Lex Fridman (27:55.680)
So that's what we're talking about.
Magatte Wade (27:56.640)
Create value.
Lex Fridman (27:57.560)
Create value, yes.
Lex Fridman (28:00.560)
So when it comes to that,
Lex Fridman (28:02.560)
we have found that whether you're looking at two countries
Magatte Wade (28:07.360)
that start out the same,
Lex Fridman (28:08.520)
we're talking the same people,
Magatte Wade (28:10.240)
East Germany, West Germany,
Lex Fridman (28:12.760)
South Korea, North Korea,
Lex Fridman (28:15.920)
very similar people to start with, right?
Lex Fridman (28:18.960)
But yet radical outcomes.
Magatte Wade (28:23.840)
I know that today Germany is united,
Lex Fridman (28:26.040)
but we're talking about back in the days
Magatte Wade (28:27.440)
when you had East and Western block.
Lex Fridman (28:30.480)
Same people, very different outcomes.
Magatte Wade (28:32.720)
Like I said, South Korea, North Korea,
Lex Fridman (28:35.760)
and so on and so forth.
Lex Fridman (28:36.800)
And at the same time, very different nations.
Lex Fridman (28:40.720)
Dubai compared to Singapore or to England,
Magatte Wade (28:45.720)
very different yet the same outcome.
Lex Fridman (28:48.800)
So it seems to me like whenever we're looking at prosperity,
Magatte Wade (28:51.880)
if a nation is prosperous,
Lex Fridman (28:53.800)
regardless of whatever other shenanigan
Magatte Wade (28:57.160)
they might be running,
Lex Fridman (28:58.120)
whatever other operating software
Magatte Wade (29:01.280)
they might be running for anything
Lex Fridman (29:03.080)
that's not related to business,
Magatte Wade (29:05.600)
if on the business side,
Lex Fridman (29:08.200)
they are proponents of a free markets
Magatte Wade (29:11.200)
or at least a base level of free markets,
Lex Fridman (29:16.600)
we know that such countries will create prosperity.
Lex Fridman (29:19.880)
So what are the aspects of the operating systems
Lex Fridman (29:21.760)
that lead to Singapore and to South Korea
Lex Fridman (29:25.240)
and all that kind of stuff?
Lex Fridman (29:26.200)
So can you speak to different elements
Lex Fridman (29:28.440)
that enable the toolkit for entrepreneurs?
Lex Fridman (29:30.320)
Sure, sure.
Lex Fridman (29:31.800)
And maybe here,
Lex Fridman (29:34.080)
let me just maybe illustrate it with my own story
Lex Fridman (29:36.560)
and then I can take you back to...
Lex Fridman (29:38.640)
Yeah, what's your...
Magatte Wade (29:39.480)
Oh my God, tell us your story.
Lex Fridman (29:42.480)
No, no.
Lex Fridman (29:43.320)
Who are you?
Lex Fridman (29:44.160)
It's just because it started with me coming here.
Magatte Wade (29:45.640)
You showed me the robot and everything
Lex Fridman (29:46.720)
and now it looks like we know each other for too long.
Lex Fridman (29:49.000)
And then you're like, tell people.
Lex Fridman (29:50.800)
No, no, no.
Lex Fridman (29:51.640)
But so this is where this question,
Lex Fridman (29:54.720)
even when you asked me,
Lex Fridman (29:55.760)
how do some countries become prosperous?
Lex Fridman (2:00:01.300)
I call it courage.
Magatte Wade (2:00:03.260)
It's the courage to show up with curiosity,
Lex Fridman (2:00:07.140)
with empathy and with love.
Magatte Wade (2:00:09.300)
To me, those three are the antidote to pretty much anything.
Lex Fridman (2:00:13.500)
Curiosity and love.
Lex Fridman (2:00:14.780)
In the face of fear, can you show up with curiosity?
Lex Fridman (2:00:19.700)
In the face of hate, can you say,
Lex Fridman (2:00:22.940)
I'm gonna engage with love?
Lex Fridman (2:00:25.460)
Even if I'm scared to death
Lex Fridman (2:00:26.620)
and even if I'm pissed off to death by this,
Lex Fridman (2:00:29.380)
but can you do that?
Magatte Wade (2:00:30.700)
In the face of just like, you know, judgment or whatever,
Lex Fridman (2:00:35.060)
can you show up with empathy?
Lex Fridman (2:00:36.820)
And I had just found that when you try to do that,
Lex Fridman (2:00:40.940)
you engage very different parts of your brain.
Magatte Wade (2:00:44.100)
That's proven by the way, by the brain scientists,
Lex Fridman (2:00:46.580)
but you also can feel it in your body
Magatte Wade (2:00:48.860)
that you're engaging very different parts of your soul.
Lex Fridman (2:00:51.420)
And so I try myself, I'm not always good at it,
Lex Fridman (2:00:54.980)
but it's a practice that I try to honor,
Lex Fridman (2:00:57.700)
which is curiosity, empathy and love.
Magatte Wade (2:00:59.700)
As I told you offline,
Lex Fridman (2:01:01.780)
those, I agree with you 100% on that,
Lex Fridman (2:01:04.620)
but there is, you know, when you go to Ukraine
Lex Fridman (2:01:07.900)
and you can say, you can speak about the power of love,
Lex Fridman (2:01:12.500)
but when you lose your family, when you lose your home,
Lex Fridman (2:01:16.260)
all you have in your heart is hate.
Magatte Wade (2:01:18.060)
Even if you know it, you're not supposed to have it.
Lex Fridman (2:01:21.540)
You still, all you have is hate.
Lex Fridman (2:01:22.940)
So sometimes it's a very human thing
Lex Fridman (2:01:27.940)
to have resentment, to have hate.
Lex Fridman (2:01:30.500)
But it is about trying not to stay there.
Lex Fridman (2:01:33.820)
And it's okay if it takes you years,
Lex Fridman (2:01:36.460)
but it is about trying, and I mean the word trying,
Lex Fridman (2:01:40.340)
it is about trying not to stay there.
Magatte Wade (2:01:44.460)
Let me ask you about some of the things
Lex Fridman (2:01:45.780)
you see in this country from your perspective
Magatte Wade (2:01:48.700)
of everywhere you've been in the world.
Lex Fridman (2:01:50.660)
What do you think about the Black Lives Matter movement
Magatte Wade (2:01:53.860)
here in America that does struggle
Lex Fridman (2:01:58.580)
with the role of skin color today
Lex Fridman (2:02:04.580)
and throughout the history of this country,
Lex Fridman (2:02:07.820)
maybe even throughout the history of the world?
Magatte Wade (2:02:10.340)
Well, Black Lives Matter has been a very hard one for me,
Lex Fridman (2:02:14.740)
because do Black Lives Matter,
Magatte Wade (2:02:16.780)
those three words together in that order,
Lex Fridman (2:02:18.620)
what they mean, they mean everything,
Magatte Wade (2:02:21.580)
because Black Lives do matter,
Lex Fridman (2:02:23.580)
as any other lives do matter.
Lex Fridman (2:02:25.900)
But I know in this case why they say Black Lives Matter,
Lex Fridman (2:02:28.340)
because some of the context we have had.
Magatte Wade (2:02:31.100)
Now, while I agree with the principles
Lex Fridman (2:02:34.660)
that Black Lives Matter,
Magatte Wade (2:02:36.100)
I have a big problem with the organization.
Lex Fridman (2:02:39.340)
With the organization and what it stands for.
Magatte Wade (2:02:44.860)
When I have an organization that pretends
Lex Fridman (2:02:47.580)
to want to stand for Black lives to matter,
Magatte Wade (2:02:51.220)
yet you are self proclaimed Marxist socialists,
Lex Fridman (2:02:58.740)
I pause.
Lex Fridman (2:03:00.700)
Why?
Lex Fridman (2:03:01.620)
I pause and then I'm like, have we learned nothing?
Lex Fridman (2:03:05.580)
Have we learned nothing?
Lex Fridman (2:03:07.860)
And the reason why I say that, Lex,
Magatte Wade (2:03:09.980)
is because 60 some years ago,
Lex Fridman (2:03:15.740)
it started before even 60 some years ago,
Magatte Wade (2:03:22.980)
Black people, in this case,
Lex Fridman (2:03:24.820)
I'm talking about the African people,
Magatte Wade (2:03:28.380)
I'm talking about the Black Africans
Lex Fridman (2:03:32.740)
who would go on to really cement
Magatte Wade (2:03:37.180)
this concept of African emancipation
Lex Fridman (2:03:41.340)
and African liberation.
Lex Fridman (2:03:43.220)
And here I'm taking us back to 1945.
Lex Fridman (2:03:46.380)
They had four of them before that.
Lex Fridman (2:03:49.180)
But in 1945, in Manchester, UK,
Lex Fridman (2:03:54.340)
happened something that would become major
Magatte Wade (2:03:56.380)
for Africa and its future,
Lex Fridman (2:04:00.100)
especially subterranean Africa.
Magatte Wade (2:04:02.900)
In Manchester, UK,
Lex Fridman (2:04:04.860)
people like Blaise Diagne of my country,
Magatte Wade (2:04:08.740)
Nyerere, Tanzania, Kwame Nkrumah, Ghana,
Lex Fridman (2:04:14.620)
and others and others from different parts of the continent
Magatte Wade (2:04:19.060)
got together with Marcus Garvey and W.E.B. Dubois.
Lex Fridman (2:04:25.580)
And I say Dubois because that's how we say it in French.
Magatte Wade (2:04:27.860)
He has a French name, French sounding name at least.
Lex Fridman (2:04:30.780)
And Americans would say, so for Americans listening,
Magatte Wade (2:04:33.620)
I know you say Duboy, but it's Dubois.
Lex Fridman (2:04:36.940)
No, because just in case they're like,
Lex Fridman (2:04:38.060)
who is he talking about?
Lex Fridman (2:04:39.140)
That's who I'm talking about.
Lex Fridman (2:04:40.340)
So all of those people got together in the UK
Lex Fridman (2:04:45.460)
and with W.E.B. Dubois and Marcus Garvey,
Magatte Wade (2:04:50.140)
big top African American intellectuals of their times.
Lex Fridman (2:04:55.780)
W.E.B. Dubois had so many things happen to him,
Magatte Wade (2:04:58.620)
starting from the North,
Lex Fridman (2:04:59.740)
being more or more or less a liberal type guy.
Magatte Wade (2:05:01.740)
You know, came to the South just to see at this time,
Lex Fridman (2:05:06.780)
you know, people, black people being lynched
Lex Fridman (2:05:08.980)
and some of the body parts been shown in store windows.
Lex Fridman (2:05:13.220)
I mean, just for a second, we put ourselves in his shoes.
Magatte Wade (2:05:17.420)
I put myself in his shoes.
Lex Fridman (2:05:19.820)
And that's when he started to become radicalized, right?
Magatte Wade (2:05:22.500)
Because at first it was like, oh, reforms,
Lex Fridman (2:05:24.140)
and I was like, God darn it.
Lex Fridman (2:05:25.460)
And I mean, these people, we don't talk to them.
Lex Fridman (2:05:27.100)
We force, you know.
Lex Fridman (2:05:28.100)
And eventually, little by little, things going through.
Lex Fridman (2:05:32.940)
Yeah, you have these people,
Magatte Wade (2:05:34.420)
they're very much on the Marxist socialist train.
Lex Fridman (2:05:37.860)
So do you think the sort of,
Lex Fridman (2:05:40.860)
it's the political movements that are just using?
Lex Fridman (2:05:44.220)
Yeah, because what happened back in those days, it is true.
Lex Fridman (2:05:49.180)
But to their credit, communist socialists
Lex Fridman (2:05:52.980)
were fighting for equal rights.
Magatte Wade (2:05:55.020)
They were fighting for equal rights.
Lex Fridman (2:05:56.860)
They were fighting for the rights of black people
Magatte Wade (2:05:58.900)
to have equal rights.
Lex Fridman (2:06:00.780)
So of course, I could see why one could say,
Magatte Wade (2:06:05.140)
especially in this times, you've been lynched,
Lex Fridman (2:06:10.380)
bodies burnt, body parts showcased at window stores.
Magatte Wade (2:06:15.380)
Meanwhile, in Africa, under colonization,
Lex Fridman (2:06:22.140)
in your own country, in your own land.
Lex Fridman (2:06:29.420)
And you have this group that's saying,
Lex Fridman (2:06:34.140)
your fight is part of what we fight.
Lex Fridman (2:06:39.580)
And you have this group that's saying,
Lex Fridman (2:06:42.220)
your fight is part of what we fight.
Magatte Wade (2:06:48.540)
Of course, you're gonna say I side with you,
Lex Fridman (2:06:51.180)
especially if this is all happening at a time
Magatte Wade (2:06:56.180)
where, you know, so 1945, these guys who would be
Lex Fridman (2:07:01.940)
the liberators of various African nations,
Magatte Wade (2:07:04.300)
they're meeting with Garvey, with W. E. B. Du Bois.
Lex Fridman (2:07:08.820)
And that's where this meeting is very important.
Magatte Wade (2:07:11.620)
It's the fifth Pan African Congress meeting.
Lex Fridman (2:07:13.740)
It's very important.
Magatte Wade (2:07:14.900)
It's gonna be the last one, but it's the most important one
Lex Fridman (2:07:17.540)
because that's when they formed their plans
Lex Fridman (2:07:19.300)
and really rallied around this concept
Lex Fridman (2:07:22.100)
of African emancipation and African liberation.
Magatte Wade (2:07:26.220)
We're gonna liberate our countries.
Lex Fridman (2:07:29.100)
Then later, so that's how all of these movements
Magatte Wade (2:07:31.580)
started to happen.
Lex Fridman (2:07:32.900)
And from there, Gandhi was already making some progress
Magatte Wade (2:07:35.820)
with India, you know, getting them out of British rule
Lex Fridman (2:07:39.220)
and all of that.
Lex Fridman (2:07:40.060)
So all of this was happening and it really like,
Lex Fridman (2:07:41.460)
this whole thing was bubbling, bubbling, bubbling,
Magatte Wade (2:07:43.340)
you know, like there's like a new force going on.
Lex Fridman (2:07:46.260)
And then we arrive in the late fifties
Magatte Wade (2:07:48.700)
and, you know, Kuma with, you know,
Lex Fridman (2:07:52.300)
them with the British as well,
Magatte Wade (2:07:53.340)
they might manage to become their colonization is over.
Lex Fridman (2:07:59.740)
They're the first one to go in, 57.
Magatte Wade (2:08:02.100)
Then from there, it's what we call the independences.
Lex Fridman (2:08:04.740)
That's what most of Sub Saharan African nation
Magatte Wade (2:08:06.820)
are getting their independence is different dates.
Lex Fridman (2:08:08.580)
Mine, April 4th, 1960.
Lex Fridman (2:08:11.060)
So all over, so this is happening.
Lex Fridman (2:08:13.220)
And now think about it.
Magatte Wade (2:08:14.060)
You're talking 57, you're talking 60.
Lex Fridman (2:08:16.660)
We're like at this time now with the middle of a Cold War.
Magatte Wade (2:08:21.420)
Because we have to put things in context
Lex Fridman (2:08:22.780)
if we wanna understand what's going on.
Magatte Wade (2:08:24.380)
Because people today ask me, why do you think,
Lex Fridman (2:08:26.740)
because even now when they understand,
Magatte Wade (2:08:28.100)
oh, you're right, it makes sense.
Lex Fridman (2:08:30.220)
If you have no economic freedom, you're gonna be poor.
Lex Fridman (2:08:32.580)
But why, why, why did they go for this?
Lex Fridman (2:08:35.020)
Why did they go for this?
Lex Fridman (2:08:35.860)
And then they don't understand.
Lex Fridman (2:08:37.020)
So that's what happened.
Lex Fridman (2:08:37.900)
So beginning of day of times, pre colonial Africans
Lex Fridman (2:08:41.980)
were free marketeers, free enterprise.
Magatte Wade (2:08:44.340)
It's pretty well recorded by someone like George Aite.
Lex Fridman (2:08:47.220)
That's where I got the cheat I think from
Lex Fridman (2:08:49.340)
and Ghanaian economist.
Lex Fridman (2:08:50.740)
And then slavery happened, colonialism happened.
Lex Fridman (2:08:52.980)
And then the independences, late fifties, early sixties
Lex Fridman (2:08:55.860)
for most sub Saharan African countries.
Lex Fridman (2:08:58.940)
So there what you have is,
Lex Fridman (2:09:00.740)
but then what happened there?
Lex Fridman (2:09:02.100)
So I told you in 45, fifth Pan African Congress in the UK
Lex Fridman (2:09:05.580)
with the liberators of Africa under the leadership
Magatte Wade (2:09:11.500)
because he was the wise, you know, eldest man.
Lex Fridman (2:09:15.860)
Dubois was, he was in his seventies back in the day.
Lex Fridman (2:09:17.860)
So he's older than them, you know,
Lex Fridman (2:09:19.220)
and he's coming with all of his ideas and everything.
Lex Fridman (2:09:21.460)
So they're like, ooh.
Lex Fridman (2:09:22.540)
So there they are.
Magatte Wade (2:09:23.780)
Now we're in the late fifties, early sixties.
Lex Fridman (2:09:25.540)
We're starting to make progress with the independences.
Magatte Wade (2:09:28.020)
You know, India has gone there before.
Lex Fridman (2:09:29.660)
So all of that is starting to happen.
Lex Fridman (2:09:32.780)
And at that time, remember,
Lex Fridman (2:09:35.300)
they already were being introduced
Magatte Wade (2:09:37.700)
to the concept of socialism, Marxism,
Lex Fridman (2:09:40.340)
all of that way before by some of these, you know,
Magatte Wade (2:09:44.820)
black African American intellectuals of their time
Lex Fridman (2:09:48.060)
who were very socialist Marxist by that time.
Lex Fridman (2:09:51.260)
So now they're becoming independent
Lex Fridman (2:09:54.140)
because I do independent like this
Magatte Wade (2:09:56.620)
because I reckon that there's still neocolonism going on.
Lex Fridman (2:10:00.700)
So now this is happening, they're becoming free.
Lex Fridman (2:10:04.020)
But then you look around, what do you see?
Lex Fridman (2:10:07.260)
That now most of these liberators of their nations
Magatte Wade (2:10:10.500)
become the president of the nations.
Lex Fridman (2:10:12.380)
But remember what I told you?
Magatte Wade (2:10:13.740)
Most of them have dranken the Marxist socialism Koolaid.
Lex Fridman (2:10:21.740)
So as these African nations become independent
Magatte Wade (2:10:25.460)
with their first independent governments
Lex Fridman (2:10:27.660)
and, you know, presidents, most of them,
Magatte Wade (2:10:31.540)
most of them are socialist,
Lex Fridman (2:10:34.620)
various forms of statist type of government.
Lex Fridman (2:10:38.220)
And this is because at that point,
Lex Fridman (2:10:40.220)
we had made a fatal mistake of going,
Magatte Wade (2:10:43.220)
of saying we are Marxist socialist
Lex Fridman (2:10:48.260)
because you guys fight for equal rights.
Lex Fridman (2:10:51.700)
So in this case, there should be no colonialism
Lex Fridman (2:10:53.340)
or anything like that.
Lex Fridman (2:10:54.940)
So not only you have that going on and the people,
Lex Fridman (2:10:58.700)
so right now you had this battle of ideology going on
Magatte Wade (2:11:01.980)
because on one end represented by freedom
Lex Fridman (2:11:04.780)
and the economic, what do you call it?
Magatte Wade (2:11:06.020)
The economic system they were using is capitalism.
Lex Fridman (2:11:08.380)
And these are represented by the Western nations
Magatte Wade (2:11:12.100)
facing off with Eastern block,
Lex Fridman (2:11:14.260)
practicing various forms of statism,
Magatte Wade (2:11:16.220)
socialism, communism, various forms of statism.
Lex Fridman (2:11:19.060)
And these two are fighting for influence.
Magatte Wade (2:11:21.460)
So, and we also have, it's also not, so two things there.
Lex Fridman (2:11:25.180)
One is we're at a time where,
Magatte Wade (2:11:27.300)
remember the free market concept was almost dead,
Lex Fridman (2:11:30.820)
almost dead.
Lex Fridman (2:11:33.020)
So almost every intellectual at that time
Lex Fridman (2:11:35.940)
was social Marxist or Marxist socialist,
Magatte Wade (2:11:40.260)
I put the name, that's what you were.
Lex Fridman (2:11:42.260)
So you're in a world where it was a normal thing,
Magatte Wade (2:11:45.140)
it was just mainstream acceptance.
Lex Fridman (2:11:47.900)
So not only you have that force,
Lex Fridman (2:11:49.700)
but at the same time,
Lex Fridman (2:11:51.700)
if these two forces are fighting one another,
Magatte Wade (2:11:53.500)
it turns out that the one representing capitalism
Lex Fridman (2:11:57.140)
and freedom, well, sorry,
Lex Fridman (2:11:59.380)
but isn't it you who enslaved us and colonized us?
Lex Fridman (2:12:03.140)
And you're fighting with the people who represent,
Magatte Wade (2:12:06.780)
supposedly people who are saying that
Lex Fridman (2:12:09.740)
who had been fighting for equal rights for us,
Magatte Wade (2:12:11.580)
with us for the longest time, these are our friends.
Lex Fridman (2:12:15.100)
And that's when we made a fatal mistake
Magatte Wade (2:12:17.180)
because while yes, there were maybe good things
Lex Fridman (2:12:19.260)
to agree on with Marxist socialist of the times,
Magatte Wade (2:12:23.500)
especially equal rights for all people and all of that,
Lex Fridman (2:12:28.060)
that's the only thing we should have,
Magatte Wade (2:12:29.340)
among the only things we should have agreed upon.
Lex Fridman (2:12:31.500)
There are violent revolution tendencies, no way.
Magatte Wade (2:12:35.060)
When it comes to the economic nonsense, no way.
Lex Fridman (2:12:38.900)
We should not have thrown the baby out with the bathwater,
Lex Fridman (2:12:41.340)
but that's what we did.
Lex Fridman (2:12:42.460)
And that's when we made a fatal mistake.
Lex Fridman (2:12:43.820)
So then we became free, all of these nations,
Lex Fridman (2:12:46.900)
and most of them started with socialist or communist leaders.
Magatte Wade (2:12:52.140)
My country, socialist, Léopold Sédar Senghor,
Lex Fridman (2:12:56.500)
he was a socialist.
Lex Fridman (2:12:58.380)
And they stayed in power for 40 years,
Lex Fridman (2:13:01.180)
the first 40 years of our freedom years.
Lex Fridman (2:13:05.700)
And all over the continent, more or less,
Lex Fridman (2:13:07.740)
that's what you had.
Lex Fridman (2:13:09.340)
And on top of that,
Lex Fridman (2:13:11.140)
something else that the French don't know,
Magatte Wade (2:13:12.780)
the people don't know is France with its colonies said,
Lex Fridman (2:13:16.140)
you cannot, not do,
Magatte Wade (2:13:18.220)
you have to keep the French civil law.
Lex Fridman (2:13:25.140)
So we're talking about the Napoleonic civil code.
Lex Fridman (2:13:29.580)
Are you kidding me?
Lex Fridman (2:13:31.100)
So that's what happened.
Lex Fridman (2:13:32.300)
So the reason why I go back to BLM is while I have
Lex Fridman (2:13:37.460)
all the respect in the world
Lex Fridman (2:13:40.180)
and all the compassion in the world
Lex Fridman (2:13:43.140)
for people like Krummer, for people like Nyerere,
Magatte Wade (2:13:45.500)
for people, all of us people of those times,
Lex Fridman (2:13:48.420)
the liberators of Africa,
Magatte Wade (2:13:50.140)
while I have so much love, compassion for them,
Lex Fridman (2:13:54.700)
I am also able to say,
Magatte Wade (2:13:57.100)
because I got the benefit of 60 some years time,
Lex Fridman (2:14:01.500)
and where you get to do a debrief
Lex Fridman (2:14:05.620)
and see what worked, what didn't work, what happened.
Lex Fridman (2:14:08.380)
We have had the 60 years to look back and to reflect.
Lex Fridman (2:14:13.060)
So yes, I can understand why they did what they did.
Lex Fridman (2:14:17.620)
I can understand why they sided with these people
Magatte Wade (2:14:21.500)
who on the surface, or at least some part of a fight
Lex Fridman (2:14:24.260)
was the same fight as them when it came to equal rights.
Magatte Wade (2:14:29.740)
I can excuse them,
Lex Fridman (2:14:32.660)
but I will not excuse the BLM founders
Magatte Wade (2:14:37.580)
because that mistake was tolerable 60 some years ago.
Lex Fridman (2:14:43.700)
Today, no.
Magatte Wade (2:14:45.980)
The blacks of today cannot be serious
Lex Fridman (2:14:51.100)
about black lives mattering and saying in the same sentence,
Lex Fridman (2:14:55.900)
and we're going to be socialist Marx, Marxist socialist.
Lex Fridman (2:14:58.500)
It just doesn't work.
Lex Fridman (2:14:59.820)
So the BLM movement is too deeply integrated
Lex Fridman (2:15:03.540)
with the ideas of Marxism.
Magatte Wade (2:15:06.260)
Yeah, they're anti free market, anti capitalist.
Lex Fridman (2:15:10.940)
And we do know that you have to have the free markets
Magatte Wade (2:15:15.540)
in order to build prosperity.
Lex Fridman (2:15:17.380)
And prosperity means economic power.
Magatte Wade (2:15:21.900)
If you have economic power, no one messes with you,
Lex Fridman (2:15:26.540)
or if they're gonna do it, they're gonna have to think twice.
Lex Fridman (2:15:28.380)
And when they do, they're gonna have to pay consequences.
Lex Fridman (2:15:32.580)
So if you want for blacks to be respected
Magatte Wade (2:15:35.380)
anywhere in the world,
Lex Fridman (2:15:37.220)
you're gonna have to be serious about black prosperity,
Magatte Wade (2:15:39.980)
all mass, not just a few people,
Lex Fridman (2:15:42.220)
Oprah over here and somebody over there, no.
Magatte Wade (2:15:44.900)
We as a group have to be critical mass of prosperity
Lex Fridman (2:15:50.820)
across the board.
Lex Fridman (2:15:52.580)
And because we're talking critical mass of prosperity
Lex Fridman (2:15:55.380)
across the board,
Magatte Wade (2:15:56.620)
it means black people everywhere in the world.
Lex Fridman (2:15:59.820)
But guess what?
Magatte Wade (2:16:00.900)
We in Africa happen to represent 90% of our representatives
Lex Fridman (2:16:04.900)
of a black race.
Lex Fridman (2:16:06.180)
So you're gonna be serious about black lives mattering
Lex Fridman (2:16:08.980)
without being serious for Africa,
Magatte Wade (2:16:11.420)
the 1 billion people in Africa that are black
Lex Fridman (2:16:14.100)
and for them to have access to the free markets
Lex Fridman (2:16:16.340)
and yes, fossil fuels,
Lex Fridman (2:16:18.180)
so that they can rocket up prosperity wise.
Lex Fridman (2:16:25.220)
And the resources of the young people, the young minds.
Lex Fridman (2:16:27.700)
So that all of these young people, young minds
Magatte Wade (2:16:29.620)
can finally manifest their greatness that I know they have
Lex Fridman (2:16:33.700)
and that they're showing us every day
Magatte Wade (2:16:35.220)
despite the obstacles.
Lex Fridman (2:16:38.620)
That's what we need.
Magatte Wade (2:16:40.100)
Senegal becomes rich and Senegal can become
Lex Fridman (2:16:42.660)
and will be richer than France.
Magatte Wade (2:16:45.020)
Singapore did it, we can do it.
Lex Fridman (2:16:47.780)
Mali rich, Nigeria rich, functioning as well.
Magatte Wade (2:16:52.260)
Malawi rich, Tanzania rich, Uganda rich,
Lex Fridman (2:16:56.540)
Zimbabwe rich, Niger rich, everywhere rich prosperous
Magatte Wade (2:17:01.540)
as prosperous, if not more prosperous than Switzerland
Lex Fridman (2:17:05.580)
or Singapore or the U.S.
Magatte Wade (2:17:07.860)
I don't know, or the Lichtenstein or Luxembourg,
Lex Fridman (2:17:09.860)
places that have no natural resources.
Magatte Wade (2:17:15.500)
We become rich and you watch the world
Lex Fridman (2:17:18.620)
having a very different relationship with us.
Magatte Wade (2:17:21.940)
That's the only time we will commend any type of respect.
Lex Fridman (2:17:26.740)
That's when people, even our common psyche will change
Magatte Wade (2:17:32.940)
even about black people.
Lex Fridman (2:17:34.180)
All of the stereotypes that they have of us
Magatte Wade (2:17:36.820)
is gonna melt away.
Lex Fridman (2:17:39.620)
And you may still not like us, but you will still respect us
Magatte Wade (2:17:44.140)
because we are a force to be dealt with.
Lex Fridman (2:17:47.260)
And only economic power does that.
Magatte Wade (2:17:49.660)
It would be nice, of course, for us to respect people
Lex Fridman (2:17:53.540)
because they're people.
Magatte Wade (2:17:54.900)
It would be nice, but let us not kid ourselves.
Lex Fridman (2:17:58.100)
This is earth.
Lex Fridman (2:18:00.300)
And someone said, nice people will make it to heaven,
Lex Fridman (2:18:03.660)
but not to Harvard necessarily.
Magatte Wade (2:18:05.460)
It's true.
Lex Fridman (2:18:06.300)
It's interesting that pity does not ever turn into respect.
Magatte Wade (2:18:12.660)
It would be nice if it did.
Lex Fridman (2:18:14.180)
It would be nice, but it doesn't.
Magatte Wade (2:18:16.580)
Prosperity is the only thing.
Lex Fridman (2:18:17.580)
Prosperity is the only thing.
Lex Fridman (2:18:19.060)
And the way we do that, there is no,
Lex Fridman (2:18:21.420)
just like all of us humans have to inhale oxygen
Lex Fridman (2:18:27.660)
and exhale carbon dioxide.
Lex Fridman (2:18:30.580)
That's a human way of breathing.
Magatte Wade (2:18:32.780)
You bring me on, but you wanna be foolish
Lex Fridman (2:18:35.140)
and be like, oh, well, sorry.
Magatte Wade (2:18:36.980)
That's how white people breathe.
Lex Fridman (2:18:38.180)
So as black people,
Magatte Wade (2:18:39.260)
we're gonna have to do something different.
Lex Fridman (2:18:40.340)
Well, good luck with that.
Lex Fridman (2:18:42.060)
Right?
Lex Fridman (2:18:42.900)
So this is here why I'm saying,
Magatte Wade (2:18:44.460)
I have no patience for Black Lives Matter.
Lex Fridman (2:18:46.620)
They're making a mistake that was made 60 some plus 60.
Magatte Wade (2:18:51.380)
Years ago, even more than that.
Lex Fridman (2:18:53.940)
Maybe even a hundred, you know,
Magatte Wade (2:18:55.300)
when we were siding with the Marxist socialists
Lex Fridman (2:18:58.300)
because they're the ones who've been fighting
Magatte Wade (2:19:00.340)
for equal rights.
Lex Fridman (2:19:03.700)
Let me ask you though, about racism.
Lex Fridman (2:19:08.700)
Do you, as you travel through this world,
Lex Fridman (2:19:11.020)
as you travel through America,
Lex Fridman (2:19:13.260)
feel the burn of hatred?
Lex Fridman (2:19:18.300)
You've spoken about the revolutions
Magatte Wade (2:19:19.940)
that have been fought throughout the 20th century
Lex Fridman (2:19:23.340)
against racism.
Lex Fridman (2:19:25.740)
But today, as people talk about educating,
Lex Fridman (2:19:29.300)
reminding the world with the,
Magatte Wade (2:19:31.460)
even with more philosophical ideas
Lex Fridman (2:19:33.340)
of critical race theory, for example,
Lex Fridman (2:19:35.780)
do you think this is still a battle
Lex Fridman (2:19:38.460)
that needs to be fought
Lex Fridman (2:19:40.740)
at the forefront of culture in the United States?
Lex Fridman (2:19:43.620)
Um, does racism exist?
Magatte Wade (2:19:48.820)
Yes, it does.
Lex Fridman (2:19:52.100)
But all forms of isms exist.
Magatte Wade (2:19:55.180)
Some people, it's about various forms of ableism.
Lex Fridman (2:19:59.780)
Others, it's about size.
Lex Fridman (2:20:02.900)
And racism, yes, is one of them.
Lex Fridman (2:20:05.420)
Does it exist?
Magatte Wade (2:20:06.260)
Yes, it does.
Lex Fridman (2:20:08.420)
But is it what's gonna stop anyone
Lex Fridman (2:20:11.300)
from manifesting their greatest potential?
Lex Fridman (2:20:14.820)
I say no.
Magatte Wade (2:20:16.220)
I say no.
Lex Fridman (2:20:18.340)
Many people in this country have showed it.
Magatte Wade (2:20:22.020)
Whether they're African Americans
Lex Fridman (2:20:23.460)
or African immigrant, I'm an African immigrant.
Magatte Wade (2:20:27.540)
You have African Americans like Oprah and others,
Lex Fridman (2:20:30.020)
and other people even before her,
Magatte Wade (2:20:32.940)
who despite the nastiness around them,
Lex Fridman (2:20:36.580)
were able to make it.
Lex Fridman (2:20:37.780)
So we do know, especially as black people,
Lex Fridman (2:20:41.580)
but I think it's humanity as a whole.
Lex Fridman (2:20:44.020)
And that's what I love about the human spirit.
Lex Fridman (2:20:46.460)
It's resiliency.
Lex Fridman (2:20:48.620)
But resiliency only can happen
Lex Fridman (2:20:50.180)
if you don't allow yourself to be beaten down
Lex Fridman (2:20:54.260)
and to lose yourself of agency.
Lex Fridman (2:20:58.340)
It's, of course, easier said than done.
Lex Fridman (2:21:01.740)
And some among us need a little bit more help
Lex Fridman (2:21:05.740)
to not succumb for it than others do.
Lex Fridman (2:21:09.860)
And I've seen it.
Lex Fridman (2:21:10.940)
It might be harder for you
Magatte Wade (2:21:12.620)
if you're somewhere in inner city,
Lex Fridman (2:21:18.020)
inner city black America.
Magatte Wade (2:21:19.980)
Maybe the environment might be a little bit tougher
Lex Fridman (2:21:22.860)
for you to try and get your act together
Lex Fridman (2:21:24.300)
and all of that stuff.
Lex Fridman (2:21:25.860)
And it's okay.
Lex Fridman (2:21:27.700)
But even in that situation,
Lex Fridman (2:21:32.060)
we need to, I think it's important
Magatte Wade (2:21:34.300)
that we still do not rob you of your agency.
Lex Fridman (2:21:39.220)
And this is where I am mad as heck
Magatte Wade (2:21:42.460)
against those who supposedly care
Lex Fridman (2:21:46.660)
and their idea of how to make sure
Magatte Wade (2:21:50.300)
that I don't become or stay a victim of racism
Lex Fridman (2:21:53.380)
is through all the things we talked about,
Magatte Wade (2:21:55.260)
the CRT, the anti racism crap of, you know,
Lex Fridman (2:22:00.260)
Ibrahim X. Kendi and what's her name, Robin DiAngelo.
Magatte Wade (2:22:05.020)
I mean her, I'm shocked.
Lex Fridman (2:22:07.020)
The woman is making all of this money
Magatte Wade (2:22:09.300)
supposedly fighting a war on our behalf.
Lex Fridman (2:22:13.060)
I'm like, lady, I hear you loud and clear
Magatte Wade (2:22:15.500)
that you are a true racist.
Lex Fridman (2:22:16.900)
I know, but you told me you are.
Lex Fridman (2:22:19.180)
And for you to think that your anti racism
Lex Fridman (2:22:20.780)
makes you less racist and it's, that happens too.
Magatte Wade (2:22:24.060)
She comes from a racist background.
Lex Fridman (2:22:26.180)
Fine, she's saying it, it's true.
Lex Fridman (2:22:28.180)
But this idea that every walking person on earth
Lex Fridman (2:22:33.220)
belongs to one category or the other,
Magatte Wade (2:22:34.620)
depending on what, you know, which skin color you came with,
Lex Fridman (2:22:38.420)
it's problematic at its root.
Lex Fridman (2:22:41.220)
So my point is, does racism exist?
Lex Fridman (2:22:44.700)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (2:22:46.780)
Do you think it's gonna stop me
Lex Fridman (2:22:47.620)
from doing anything I have to do?
Magatte Wade (2:22:49.340)
No.
Lex Fridman (2:22:50.500)
Might it make it harder, longer?
Magatte Wade (2:22:53.020)
Maybe, but it will not stop me from doing anything.
Lex Fridman (2:22:57.100)
But it will not stop me.
Lex Fridman (2:23:00.180)
But for it not to stop me,
Lex Fridman (2:23:01.940)
I can't engage in victimhood mentality.
Magatte Wade (2:23:04.380)
I can't lose myself as self.
Lex Fridman (2:23:05.980)
I got to use all the agency that I have
Magatte Wade (2:23:09.540)
to fight back and fight beyond.
Lex Fridman (2:23:12.380)
See, it's just a bit of fight back.
Magatte Wade (2:23:14.460)
You fight back and you fight beyond.
Lex Fridman (2:23:15.740)
Cause at some point, yeah and.
Magatte Wade (2:23:18.460)
It's this concept of yes and.
Lex Fridman (2:23:20.900)
So this is why I have loved the job.
Lex Fridman (2:23:24.220)
So when I have somebody who is like,
Lex Fridman (2:23:26.340)
oh, anti racism is a way.
Magatte Wade (2:23:28.780)
We're gonna go and tell all the white kids
Lex Fridman (2:23:31.260)
that, you know, because they will happen to be white,
Magatte Wade (2:23:32.980)
that they're really the oppressors and blah, blah, blah.
Lex Fridman (2:23:35.580)
And the black kids, because they're black, you know,
Magatte Wade (2:23:38.820)
you're not changing anything when you're doing that.
Lex Fridman (2:23:41.500)
Nothing except that you're causing,
Magatte Wade (2:23:43.060)
you're putting problems
Lex Fridman (2:23:43.980)
where there were no problems to start with.
Magatte Wade (2:23:46.300)
All we had to do was maybe
Lex Fridman (2:23:48.140)
go for a different route from there.
Magatte Wade (2:23:50.060)
Kids are kids.
Lex Fridman (2:23:51.260)
Kids are born kids.
Lex Fridman (2:23:52.460)
And this, I'm not sure if you want to get me going
Lex Fridman (2:23:54.500)
onto the whole science of bias,
Magatte Wade (2:23:57.580)
because that's something I spent years of my life on.
Lex Fridman (2:23:59.940)
And my journey on the science of bias
Magatte Wade (2:24:03.860)
started with the days of Philando Castile,
Lex Fridman (2:24:08.060)
Eric Garner, that whole summer of 2016,
Magatte Wade (2:24:12.300)
when we had this horrendous, horrendous situation
Lex Fridman (2:24:17.340)
of black people being killed by the police,
Magatte Wade (2:24:20.340)
where they shot before asking,
Lex Fridman (2:24:22.420)
and people left to die in the most inhumane way
Magatte Wade (2:24:24.860)
for the rest of us to watch from the social media.
Lex Fridman (2:24:28.020)
That's me.
Magatte Wade (2:24:29.820)
That's when my George Floyd moment happened.
Lex Fridman (2:24:31.340)
Not later than four years ago,
Lex Fridman (2:24:32.420)
and the whole world is like, you know.
Lex Fridman (2:24:35.100)
So that sent me on a journey
Magatte Wade (2:24:38.620)
of understanding what discrimination is and bias is.
Lex Fridman (2:24:43.620)
And in a way, that's the reason why I started this company
Magatte Wade (2:24:45.460)
that I even called Skinny Skin.
Lex Fridman (2:24:47.900)
That's where it came from.
Magatte Wade (2:24:49.180)
Again, criticized by creating.
Lex Fridman (2:24:51.140)
I needed to understand what discrimination was.
Lex Fridman (2:24:53.860)
How does it work?
Lex Fridman (2:24:55.060)
Is it true what Kendi is saying?
Lex Fridman (2:24:56.900)
Is it true what DAngelo is saying?
Lex Fridman (2:24:58.620)
Is it true that it could be that your race
Lex Fridman (2:25:03.820)
is just because of the skin color you happen to be born in?
Lex Fridman (2:25:06.500)
Is it true?
Lex Fridman (2:25:08.220)
Is it true?
Lex Fridman (2:25:09.260)
I needed to know, because I was at a time of my life
Magatte Wade (2:25:12.540)
where at some point, you know,
Lex Fridman (2:25:14.660)
when those killings were happening,
Magatte Wade (2:25:16.780)
it was so hard for me being a black person in this country.
Lex Fridman (2:25:21.020)
And wondering,
Lex Fridman (2:25:27.780)
I mean, what is this?
Lex Fridman (2:25:29.420)
And what do we do with this?
Lex Fridman (2:25:33.980)
Yeah, is it true?
Lex Fridman (2:25:34.900)
How much discrimination am I operating under in the system?
Magatte Wade (2:25:38.660)
All of that.
Lex Fridman (2:25:39.780)
You need to understand the full characteristics of,
Magatte Wade (2:25:42.540)
if you're dreaming of making a big change
Lex Fridman (2:25:45.260)
by building companies, you have to kind of intuit,
Lex Fridman (2:25:49.220)
how much, what am I up against?
Lex Fridman (2:25:51.100)
What am I up against, right?
Lex Fridman (2:25:52.340)
And so this is why, you know,
Lex Fridman (2:25:53.580)
spend all of this time on some of the work.
Lex Fridman (2:25:55.860)
And then eventually I understood that discrimination,
Lex Fridman (2:25:58.860)
if you wanted to understand it beyond,
Magatte Wade (2:26:01.340)
it's, you know, beyond the big lines of,
Lex Fridman (2:26:04.540)
especially the clickbait lines
Magatte Wade (2:26:06.500)
would make it very black and white.
Lex Fridman (2:26:08.780)
Then I had to really take a moment and I spent time,
Magatte Wade (2:26:11.300)
you know, with a world of brain scientists,
Lex Fridman (2:26:13.700)
with behavioral psychologists,
Magatte Wade (2:26:16.700)
with evolutionary biologists.
Lex Fridman (2:26:18.580)
We have all of this ecosystem, but together form
Lex Fridman (2:26:21.780)
what one might call the science of bias.
Lex Fridman (2:26:25.380)
And especially I came across the work
Magatte Wade (2:26:28.780)
of this team of scientists at the University of,
Lex Fridman (2:26:31.820)
I think it's Wisconsin,
Lex Fridman (2:26:33.460)
and they're the only ones who made sense
Lex Fridman (2:26:36.980)
in this sea of nonsense back then.
Lex Fridman (2:26:40.140)
And this article was in Politico,
Lex Fridman (2:26:43.660)
and it was saying something that I could relate to it.
Lex Fridman (2:26:47.060)
And eventually what I learned was,
Lex Fridman (2:26:50.740)
and this part comes from the evolutionary biologist people,
Magatte Wade (2:26:54.220)
they in a way tell you that right around age three,
Lex Fridman (2:26:58.100)
can happen sooner or later,
Magatte Wade (2:26:59.460)
because you know, we're all different,
Lex Fridman (2:27:01.260)
but you go from this person who has to rely
Magatte Wade (2:27:04.220)
on these other people, usually your parents, to stay alive,
Lex Fridman (2:27:07.780)
to be fed, to be housed, to be in your diaper change,
Lex Fridman (2:27:10.980)
all of that stuff, right?
Lex Fridman (2:27:12.900)
To now, something is kicking in.
Magatte Wade (2:27:15.660)
Where you have to, in order for you to survive,
Lex Fridman (2:27:21.660)
and this is all wired in,
Lex Fridman (2:27:23.500)
so you don't even understand it consciously,
Lex Fridman (2:27:25.900)
as I'm saying it now,
Magatte Wade (2:27:27.340)
where in order for you to survive,
Lex Fridman (2:27:29.700)
in order for you to go from this state of dependency
Magatte Wade (2:27:32.060)
to the next stage and more and more and more,
Lex Fridman (2:27:35.820)
you're gonna have to develop this ability
Magatte Wade (2:27:37.740)
to make sense of the world.
Lex Fridman (2:27:39.540)
And what's making sense of a world
Magatte Wade (2:27:41.020)
at its most basic level means is,
Lex Fridman (2:27:43.420)
can you determine if a situation
Lex Fridman (2:27:46.340)
or a person is good or bad for you?
Lex Fridman (2:27:49.980)
Failure, and you need to be able to do so ever so quickly,
Magatte Wade (2:27:54.100)
because failure to be able to do that
Lex Fridman (2:27:56.660)
means that you might not be alive the next second.
Magatte Wade (2:28:00.580)
See, it's so wired in.
Lex Fridman (2:28:02.900)
So this process is starting to kick in.
Lex Fridman (2:28:06.020)
And at that point,
Lex Fridman (2:28:07.580)
your brain is gonna be your best ally for that.
Lex Fridman (2:28:09.980)
And what the brain is gonna do is it's gonna help you,
Lex Fridman (2:28:12.820)
and the way the brain works is through,
Magatte Wade (2:28:15.100)
it works with, it's all wired for efficiency.
Lex Fridman (2:28:19.220)
And the way it goes for efficiency is through automation,
Magatte Wade (2:28:24.300)
meaning that every time it has computed,
Lex Fridman (2:28:25.980)
and you probably know these things way better than me,
Magatte Wade (2:28:27.540)
every time it has computed one algorithm,
Lex Fridman (2:28:30.940)
it doesn't want to do it again.
Lex Fridman (2:28:33.420)
It's almost like this, okay, got it, stored, stored, right?
Lex Fridman (2:28:37.060)
And then it adds maybe some little levels of complexity to it,
Lex Fridman (2:28:40.020)
but it has to be something new,
Lex Fridman (2:28:41.380)
meaning the new level of complexity
Magatte Wade (2:28:43.100)
for it to even be willing to reconsider.
Lex Fridman (2:28:45.740)
Otherwise you have, so then all of a sudden
Lex Fridman (2:28:47.180)
what you have is these neurons in the back of your head,
Lex Fridman (2:28:50.700)
and they have created pathways, right?
Magatte Wade (2:28:53.420)
So, and every time neurons have created pathway
Lex Fridman (2:28:56.540)
among themselves, because basically they're attached,
Lex Fridman (2:29:00.140)
and here is the pathway,
Lex Fridman (2:29:01.380)
well, this pathway in the world of,
Magatte Wade (2:29:03.620)
in the world of science of bias, it's a habit.
Lex Fridman (2:29:08.620)
In general, it's a habit when they form two pathways,
Magatte Wade (2:29:10.620)
when they form a pathway, it's a habit.
Lex Fridman (2:29:12.180)
So if we're willing to talk about unconscious bias,
Magatte Wade (2:29:16.140)
because of course it's very different
Lex Fridman (2:29:18.500)
from somebody who tells me to my face,
Magatte Wade (2:29:21.940)
there's no world in which you or I could ever be equal,
Lex Fridman (2:29:26.220)
because you're black and I'm white,
Magatte Wade (2:29:27.540)
you're a woman, I'm a man, this, this and that,
Lex Fridman (2:29:30.460)
that people like that, again, 1% of psychopaths in our world,
Magatte Wade (2:29:35.460)
they're out there, unfortunately,
Lex Fridman (2:29:37.100)
by the time they do nasty things, it's pretty horrible,
Lex Fridman (2:29:39.300)
and that's what all we hear about,
Lex Fridman (2:29:41.100)
but I'm talking mostly about the rest of us.
Magatte Wade (2:29:42.860)
Remember when I told you that most of us are good people,
Lex Fridman (2:29:45.340)
bumbling along, making it up as we're going,
Lex Fridman (2:29:47.980)
and that's why I have compassion for human nature.
Lex Fridman (2:29:50.660)
So, but really, in the morning when I wake up,
Lex Fridman (2:29:53.900)
do you really think that I'm waking up and thinking,
Lex Fridman (2:29:55.700)
how am I gonna go kill?
Lex Fridman (2:29:56.700)
How am I gonna kill?
Lex Fridman (2:29:57.540)
How am I gonna kill?
Lex Fridman (2:29:58.380)
And I wake up and thinking, how am I gonna go kill?
Lex Fridman (2:30:00.540)
How am I gonna go kill Lex?
Magatte Wade (2:30:01.860)
That Lex guy needs to go down, he's a man, he's a,
Lex Fridman (2:30:04.660)
don't take me wrong, I'm sure there are some women
Magatte Wade (2:30:05.860)
who feel like that, but I'm not one of them,
Lex Fridman (2:30:07.660)
and I do think a majority of us are not, whatever.
Lex Fridman (2:30:10.500)
But you know, in the morning I'm waking up,
Lex Fridman (2:30:11.620)
I'm just like, gee, can I get my tea?
Magatte Wade (2:30:16.780)
Oh, my dog is not looking okay today.
Lex Fridman (2:30:18.540)
You know, we've got, right?
Magatte Wade (2:30:22.420)
It's a lot going on, and so you're using these kind of,
Lex Fridman (2:30:26.060)
just like you said, brilliantly,
Magatte Wade (2:30:27.380)
it has a bunch of simplifications that's built up,
Lex Fridman (2:30:30.220)
and it uses those simplifications to get through the day.
Magatte Wade (2:30:32.820)
To get through the day, exactly.
Lex Fridman (2:30:34.500)
So then here you are, needing to make sense of a world,
Lex Fridman (2:30:37.900)
and then the brain is your best ally in that.
Lex Fridman (2:30:39.860)
The way it's gonna do it is through efficiency,
Magatte Wade (2:30:41.420)
efficiency done through automation.
Lex Fridman (2:30:43.340)
So every time it thinks it's figured something out,
Magatte Wade (2:30:46.420)
it's never gonna think about it again,
Lex Fridman (2:30:47.780)
so that's how you build all of these habits
Magatte Wade (2:30:49.780)
of unconscious bias, because everything,
Lex Fridman (2:30:52.300)
so it's somewhere along the line,
Magatte Wade (2:30:54.620)
you come up with the information
Lex Fridman (2:30:58.500)
that black man walking around with a hoodie equals danger.
Lex Fridman (2:31:01.660)
So later, what do you see?
Lex Fridman (2:31:04.900)
Whether it's Lex or my gut, I'm walking in the dark alley,
Magatte Wade (2:31:07.820)
I see a black man with a hoodie,
Lex Fridman (2:31:09.140)
maybe I'm gonna run away
Magatte Wade (2:31:10.060)
because I've been given that information.
Lex Fridman (2:31:12.940)
So the best way to think about it is the brain is a hardware,
Lex Fridman (2:31:16.580)
and the software it runs on is, what do you call it?
Lex Fridman (2:31:21.740)
Is a cultural imprint.
Magatte Wade (2:31:24.380)
All of this information that we're getting
Lex Fridman (2:31:26.060)
from the Disney movies that you're reading,
Magatte Wade (2:31:28.260)
telling you that damsels are to be saved by the prince
Lex Fridman (2:31:30.860)
and all of that stuff, and girls wear pink and all, whatever.
Magatte Wade (2:31:34.420)
You watch the movies, and all the movies,
Lex Fridman (2:31:36.300)
whenever you watch images about Africa,
Magatte Wade (2:31:38.060)
they're talking to you about the blood diamonds,
Lex Fridman (2:31:39.500)
or they're talking to you about slavery,
Magatte Wade (2:31:40.740)
or they're talking to you about this,
Lex Fridman (2:31:41.580)
and then no wonder you walk away
Magatte Wade (2:31:42.860)
thinking that all the ills of Africa are caused
Lex Fridman (2:31:44.900)
because of resource extraction, the diamonds,
Magatte Wade (2:31:47.500)
or they're always fighting each other,
Lex Fridman (2:31:49.380)
look at Idi Amin in the movie,
Magatte Wade (2:31:52.300)
or slavery all the time, you walk away and this is it.
Lex Fridman (2:31:56.660)
And we all programmed along the same lines,
Magatte Wade (2:31:58.180)
see that's the beauty of it.
Lex Fridman (2:31:59.820)
All of us are, because even some black people
Magatte Wade (2:32:02.380)
who are gonna claim that they didn't visit up
Lex Fridman (2:32:04.300)
when they registered, really?
Lex Fridman (2:32:06.620)
So the truth, so then when I learned all of this,
Lex Fridman (2:32:08.540)
I'm like, wow, this concept of if you've got the brain,
Magatte Wade (2:32:11.300)
you've got biases, it comes with the territory,
Lex Fridman (2:32:14.620)
that makes sense.
Magatte Wade (2:32:16.580)
Now, it doesn't mean we can't transcend
Lex Fridman (2:32:19.860)
that function of a brain and that we should transcend it.
Lex Fridman (2:32:24.780)
But I think it's very important
Lex Fridman (2:32:25.820)
because once you understand that,
Magatte Wade (2:32:27.700)
a little bit more peace is created among us
Lex Fridman (2:32:30.300)
because this is not about a black and white,
Magatte Wade (2:32:32.020)
or a yellow and green issue,
Lex Fridman (2:32:34.020)
it's about we are human issue.
Lex Fridman (2:32:36.900)
And these are part of things we develop to stay around.
Lex Fridman (2:32:42.980)
Just like we no longer have to rely on this fear of flight,
Magatte Wade (2:32:47.980)
like ability of a brain because bears over there
Lex Fridman (2:32:52.660)
start running and running fast, right?
Lex Fridman (2:32:54.860)
Today, where are the bears?
Lex Fridman (2:32:55.740)
Show me where they are.
Lex Fridman (2:32:56.820)
But we have kept this tendency to go for fear of flight.
Lex Fridman (2:33:02.420)
I don't know how they say it.
Lex Fridman (2:33:03.340)
And so we have this courtesan done by the stress,
Lex Fridman (2:33:07.740)
stress triggers that back in the days,
Magatte Wade (2:33:09.460)
we have a stress trigger, we run,
Lex Fridman (2:33:11.540)
and it's all expelled out.
Lex Fridman (2:33:14.140)
But today we get triggers
Lex Fridman (2:33:15.900)
and we don't know what to do with it
Lex Fridman (2:33:17.140)
because where do we run to?
Lex Fridman (2:33:18.860)
What do we do?
Magatte Wade (2:33:19.700)
The bear is not even here.
Lex Fridman (2:33:21.620)
So same thing here with that.
Lex Fridman (2:33:23.340)
And so then you realize there's this whole thing
Lex Fridman (2:33:25.860)
that is now what you understand
Magatte Wade (2:33:28.180)
is that this problem is not about anti racism BS,
Lex Fridman (2:33:31.900)
but it is about can each one of us
Magatte Wade (2:33:34.460)
do the work where the work is needed,
Lex Fridman (2:33:36.420)
which is we look inside.
Lex Fridman (2:33:38.540)
Can we go for this work of deprogrammation?
Lex Fridman (2:33:42.540)
This concept of a mindful practice
Magatte Wade (2:33:45.340)
of undoing the habit of bias.
Lex Fridman (2:33:49.500)
And that doesn't necessarily have to do
Magatte Wade (2:33:52.180)
with a simple categorization of black and white.
Lex Fridman (2:33:55.420)
It's all kinds of biases.
Magatte Wade (2:33:56.420)
It's about everything.
Lex Fridman (2:33:57.380)
It's about everything.
Lex Fridman (2:33:58.860)
And when I started on that journey
Lex Fridman (2:34:00.980)
and my friend back then built this practice
Magatte Wade (2:34:03.820)
of undoing your habit of unconscious bias,
Lex Fridman (2:34:08.500)
we had all types of people come and say,
Magatte Wade (2:34:11.420)
wow, I discovered that my bias is against larger people.
Lex Fridman (2:34:16.060)
And I'm more like, what do you mean?
Magatte Wade (2:34:17.980)
Well, I think it seems to me like I felt
Lex Fridman (2:34:21.900)
that larger people maybe are dumb.
Magatte Wade (2:34:24.540)
No, we heard things and you don't judge.
Lex Fridman (2:34:28.060)
Yeah.
Magatte Wade (2:34:28.900)
You don't judge.
Lex Fridman (2:34:29.740)
And you see it's at every level.
Magatte Wade (2:34:33.700)
I don't know, like there's even this one friend,
Lex Fridman (2:34:35.740)
she was like, when I looked into the whole dating thing,
Magatte Wade (2:34:37.700)
I absolutely didn't want to date the Asian men
Lex Fridman (2:34:40.460)
because her mind was into some stereotypes
Magatte Wade (2:34:43.500)
about the size of whatever.
Lex Fridman (2:34:45.460)
And she was like, no.
Lex Fridman (2:34:47.340)
But you see, once you start,
Lex Fridman (2:34:50.060)
because there's this whole thing of,
Magatte Wade (2:34:51.420)
it's the five step thing, bias awareness.
Lex Fridman (2:34:54.180)
This, basically at this level,
Lex Fridman (2:34:57.260)
what you're doing is you're learning
Lex Fridman (2:34:59.900)
to spot the biases in our culture,
Magatte Wade (2:35:02.060)
because that's where the cultural imprint comes from.
Lex Fridman (2:35:04.420)
You're watching this movie and you're realizing,
Magatte Wade (2:35:05.900)
just like I said, wow, gee, I realized once again,
Lex Fridman (2:35:08.340)
the black person is portrayed like the fog of a movie.
Magatte Wade (2:35:12.300)
Or, you know, the Latina lady,
Lex Fridman (2:35:15.300)
this is how she's been portrayed.
Lex Fridman (2:35:16.660)
And you see it everywhere.
Lex Fridman (2:35:17.540)
Even the NPR, NPR is happening,
Magatte Wade (2:35:19.900)
like you're listening to something like NPR.
Lex Fridman (2:35:21.620)
It's gotta be more liberal than that.
Lex Fridman (2:35:23.620)
And this gentleman is asking these two candidates,
Lex Fridman (2:35:26.140)
one of them is a woman, political candidates,
Magatte Wade (2:35:27.860)
the other one is a man.
Lex Fridman (2:35:29.060)
I'm hearing him asking the lady a question
Magatte Wade (2:35:31.020)
that I know he's not gonna ask the man and he didn't ask her.
Lex Fridman (2:35:33.700)
He said, how do you balance your race with a family?
Lex Fridman (2:35:40.140)
Does a man not have a family?
Lex Fridman (2:35:41.940)
Right there, you see, it's very subtle.
Lex Fridman (2:35:46.100)
But you see, but because now my mind is kind of trained
Lex Fridman (2:35:48.980)
to see things, I'm like, interesting.
Magatte Wade (2:35:51.220)
Or like when the media just says,
Lex Fridman (2:35:53.260)
froze climate change issue on something
Magatte Wade (2:35:57.620)
without even the choice of words.
Lex Fridman (2:35:59.900)
So it's pretty much everywhere.
Magatte Wade (2:36:01.620)
You open a book everywhere.
Lex Fridman (2:36:03.140)
The interesting thing though,
Magatte Wade (2:36:05.020)
I mean, even that man, woman example,
Lex Fridman (2:36:08.260)
is I think it's really powerful
Magatte Wade (2:36:11.860)
to bring that bias to the surface,
Lex Fridman (2:36:13.940)
but not let that lead to kind of fear and paralysis.
Magatte Wade (2:36:18.500)
You should almost, I mean, that's where humor is,
Lex Fridman (2:36:20.940)
make fun of it, bring it to the surface,
Magatte Wade (2:36:23.300)
like acknowledge the fact that those things
Lex Fridman (2:36:25.740)
are a part of the conversation.
Lex Fridman (2:36:27.140)
And a lot of them are, it is, it's a cultural imprint
Lex Fridman (2:36:32.100)
because it's part of culture.
Lex Fridman (2:36:33.220)
And that might be, there could be,
Lex Fridman (2:36:34.740)
I grew up in the Soviet Union
Magatte Wade (2:36:36.620)
where the gender roles were stronger than in other places.
Lex Fridman (2:36:40.260)
And that's part of the culture.
Magatte Wade (2:36:41.260)
We have to acknowledge that this is how,
Lex Fridman (2:36:44.340)
this is affecting how I think.
Magatte Wade (2:36:46.580)
We might like how that works, we might not,
Lex Fridman (2:36:49.100)
but we have to acknowledge it and not get,
Magatte Wade (2:36:52.020)
make it part of humor, make fun of yourself,
Lex Fridman (2:36:54.220)
all that kind of stuff.
Magatte Wade (2:36:55.460)
That's the thing.
Lex Fridman (2:36:56.300)
And so that's why this first step is bias awareness.
Lex Fridman (2:37:00.140)
So you get, you train yourself, oh yeah, okay,
Lex Fridman (2:37:02.300)
that was one or it's, you know, and it's about,
Magatte Wade (2:37:05.020)
it's in you, we're talking about you, we're not.
Lex Fridman (2:37:07.180)
And then from there, you're like replace the bias,
Magatte Wade (2:37:11.500)
like bias replacement.
Lex Fridman (2:37:13.940)
Then it is where you practice the empathy.
Magatte Wade (2:37:17.380)
You're like, gee, wow, I wonder how I would feel
Lex Fridman (2:37:19.700)
every day I walk into a store
Lex Fridman (2:37:21.260)
and the guy thinks he should be following me
Lex Fridman (2:37:22.740)
because maybe I might steal something because I'm black.
Magatte Wade (2:37:25.700)
Because once you try that,
Lex Fridman (2:37:27.180)
to put yourself in the other person's shoes,
Magatte Wade (2:37:28.660)
all of a sudden something else starts to click.
Lex Fridman (2:37:31.220)
And then from there, you go on to making connection.
Magatte Wade (2:37:36.220)
Then you're making a connection
Lex Fridman (2:37:37.820)
and then things start to change because now you know,
Magatte Wade (2:37:42.020)
you're making, then you make cultural immersion.
Lex Fridman (2:37:45.140)
So this is where we had some people like this one woman,
Magatte Wade (2:37:47.100)
she was very quite, very feminist oriented.
Lex Fridman (2:37:51.540)
And she had an issue with women wearing the hijab.
Lex Fridman (2:37:56.020)
And because for her it was like, how come you,
Lex Fridman (2:37:58.060)
how come, how come you just lower, you know,
Magatte Wade (2:38:02.340)
like how come you're accepting this demeaning of yourself,
Lex Fridman (2:38:06.300)
not understanding everything else that comes with it.
Lex Fridman (2:38:09.620)
But through, as she understood that she even had that bias,
Lex Fridman (2:38:13.580)
then she went on through all the different processes.
Lex Fridman (2:38:15.980)
And then eventually when comes the next step,
Lex Fridman (2:38:18.220)
cultural immersion, she started going to the mosque
Magatte Wade (2:38:21.740)
during Ramadan when the Muslims are doing, you know,
Lex Fridman (2:38:24.300)
they're, it's the holy month of, you know, fasting
Lex Fridman (2:38:27.020)
and then we break at night.
Lex Fridman (2:38:29.780)
And she started understanding very different things.
Lex Fridman (2:38:32.340)
And eventually happens the last step that happens naturally,
Lex Fridman (2:38:35.740)
making a true, real, genuine connection.
Lex Fridman (2:38:38.820)
And this is where friendships happen.
Lex Fridman (2:38:40.740)
This is where that's it, your bias can go home now
Magatte Wade (2:38:43.220)
because it has been challenged with reality
Lex Fridman (2:38:46.220)
and understanding.
Lex Fridman (2:38:47.380)
And so for me, that is what I was after.
Lex Fridman (2:38:51.340)
And then, but then the world was just like,
Magatte Wade (2:38:53.700)
we don't want to be told we're part of a problem.
Lex Fridman (2:38:55.820)
So, but I still reckon that it is the type of mindfulness,
Magatte Wade (2:38:59.180)
type of practice that's going to need to happen.
Lex Fridman (2:39:00.620)
And it's one that's very internal to you.
Magatte Wade (2:39:04.180)
It is not, and it happens, everybody at their own pace.
Lex Fridman (2:39:08.580)
So all of this, I take it back to the racism,
Magatte Wade (2:39:13.980)
the question you were asking me.
Lex Fridman (2:39:16.580)
Does racism exist?
Magatte Wade (2:39:17.420)
Yes, it does.
Lex Fridman (2:39:18.460)
Is it going to stop me from doing anything I want to do?
Magatte Wade (2:39:20.260)
No.
Lex Fridman (2:39:21.100)
Is it going to make it harder?
Magatte Wade (2:39:21.940)
No.
Lex Fridman (2:39:22.900)
But this is where, for anybody who is serious
Magatte Wade (2:39:27.420)
about making sure, about fighting racism,
Lex Fridman (2:39:33.860)
I think the only job you have to do is to make sure
Magatte Wade (2:39:39.060)
that people keep their sense of self agency
Lex Fridman (2:39:43.020)
and B, can you help provide people with the tools
Lex Fridman (2:39:47.340)
to stand up?
Lex Fridman (2:39:48.940)
So this is why I have so much respect for Van Jones.
Magatte Wade (2:39:52.500)
People like Van Jones,
Lex Fridman (2:39:54.100)
although I disagree with him on so many things,
Lex Fridman (2:39:56.220)
but people like Ms. Alice Johnson,
Lex Fridman (2:40:00.380)
she was pardoned by President Trump
Magatte Wade (2:40:02.980)
through the work of people like Van Jones
Lex Fridman (2:40:05.420)
and Kim Kardashian and others.
Magatte Wade (2:40:08.060)
They all joined forces.
Lex Fridman (2:40:09.700)
This is a case where people of,
Lex Fridman (2:40:11.580)
and those folks then went on to combine forces furthermore,
Lex Fridman (2:40:16.940)
no regard given to their political belongings.
Magatte Wade (2:40:21.140)
They said, if the issue is criminal justice reform,
Lex Fridman (2:40:25.700)
then anybody who stands for it has to come together.
Lex Fridman (2:40:29.420)
And so what they did in this situation
Lex Fridman (2:40:31.660)
with what they're doing,
Magatte Wade (2:40:34.740)
criminal justice reform in my mind
Lex Fridman (2:40:37.060)
is a valid action to fight racism in my mind.
Lex Fridman (2:40:43.540)
Because what are you doing there?
Lex Fridman (2:40:44.980)
You're trying to get people out of jail
Magatte Wade (2:40:47.020)
who really have no business being there.
Lex Fridman (2:40:49.460)
And also when you have people like Bishop Omar
Lex Fridman (2:40:52.660)
and the people, he passed away, unfortunately,
Lex Fridman (2:40:55.180)
but today we have Anton Lucky,
Magatte Wade (2:40:57.860)
who was in jail for having killed his cousin.
Lex Fridman (2:41:01.860)
He had started,
Magatte Wade (2:41:04.300)
I think he started the gang in South Dallas.
Lex Fridman (2:41:08.900)
So we're talking really tough guy
Magatte Wade (2:41:10.340)
who was reading the wrong side of the equation.
Lex Fridman (2:41:13.340)
And then in jail, literally he found Plato,
Magatte Wade (2:41:16.580)
the cave and all that.
Lex Fridman (2:41:17.860)
So today these people, I'm like,
Lex Fridman (2:41:21.060)
why don't we hear more about them?
Lex Fridman (2:41:22.380)
The urban specialists.
Magatte Wade (2:41:23.900)
Because these people,
Lex Fridman (2:41:25.260)
it's not about the anti racism crap of Candy O'Donoghue,
Magatte Wade (2:41:28.300)
I'll say it again, until the cows come home,
Lex Fridman (2:41:30.620)
but it is about, we go where help is needed.
Magatte Wade (2:41:33.220)
We go in urban, inner city,
Lex Fridman (2:41:37.740)
inner city, black inner city neighborhoods
Lex Fridman (2:41:40.260)
and block by block we change the culture.
Lex Fridman (2:41:43.340)
And they say it like that, it's their words.
Magatte Wade (2:41:45.540)
These are African American people
Lex Fridman (2:41:47.100)
who have as many rights as anybody else
Magatte Wade (2:41:48.700)
to talk about their own culture.
Lex Fridman (2:41:50.180)
And they will tell you, we have to change the culture.
Magatte Wade (2:41:53.740)
I have some videos like that on my YouTube
Lex Fridman (2:41:55.860)
with Bishop Omar.
Lex Fridman (2:41:57.580)
What these people are doing is what we need to do.
Lex Fridman (2:41:59.980)
Bishop will explain and say,
Magatte Wade (2:42:01.220)
sometimes people are their feet and feet
Lex Fridman (2:42:05.020)
deep down in the mud.
Lex Fridman (2:42:07.340)
And what we have to do is to try to pull them up.
Lex Fridman (2:42:11.260)
And you cannot say you didn't pull them up
Magatte Wade (2:42:13.540)
because we're not seeing their head out yet,
Lex Fridman (2:42:15.300)
but how much progress have they made from the bottom
Magatte Wade (2:42:18.580)
to where they are now and keep going.
Lex Fridman (2:42:22.180)
So what I see these people doing,
Magatte Wade (2:42:24.500)
you see, I have so much,
Lex Fridman (2:42:26.340)
I love and respect Glen Lowry and company,
Lex Fridman (2:42:29.340)
and Ian Rove and all of those guys.
Lex Fridman (2:42:30.660)
I love them.
Magatte Wade (2:42:31.620)
I love a lot of the things that they say.
Lex Fridman (2:42:36.220)
This whole concept of personal responsibility,
Magatte Wade (2:42:37.700)
we don't know that.
Lex Fridman (2:42:38.900)
But I'm just like, at some point,
Magatte Wade (2:42:40.300)
it also needs to be matched up with real actions.
Lex Fridman (2:42:43.740)
And that's what the people like Anton Lucky,
Magatte Wade (2:42:46.700)
urban specialist, Alice Johnson are doing.
Lex Fridman (2:42:50.100)
They're going where it's hard.
Magatte Wade (2:42:51.180)
Alice Johnson is getting people out of jail
Lex Fridman (2:42:52.820)
every single day, literally.
Lex Fridman (2:42:54.820)
And then people like Anton Lucky and his team
Lex Fridman (2:42:57.420)
are giving them the tools to live the gang life,
Magatte Wade (2:43:01.100)
to be better people, to go for a life of redemption.
Lex Fridman (2:43:05.260)
This is happening right now.
Lex Fridman (2:43:07.100)
But what I find is they're not getting
Lex Fridman (2:43:08.580)
the bulk of the attention.
Lex Fridman (2:43:10.260)
But anybody who's serious about this is why,
Lex Fridman (2:43:14.420)
how I would love to see people do anti racism
Magatte Wade (2:43:17.300)
is help lift people up for real.
Lex Fridman (2:43:21.460)
Action.
Magatte Wade (2:43:22.300)
Support school choice.
Lex Fridman (2:43:26.980)
Support school choice.
Magatte Wade (2:43:28.140)
Black mamas, they know what's going on.
Lex Fridman (2:43:30.820)
And when they tell you we want school choice,
Magatte Wade (2:43:32.860)
they know what to talk about.
Lex Fridman (2:43:33.700)
They're not idiots.
Magatte Wade (2:43:35.420)
Especially at the local level.
Lex Fridman (2:43:36.940)
Yes.
Magatte Wade (2:43:37.780)
Helping them at the local level.
Lex Fridman (2:43:38.820)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (2:43:39.660)
So help them make sure that they can take their kids
Lex Fridman (2:43:42.780)
out of these public schools that are doing
Magatte Wade (2:43:45.900)
horrendous things to them.
Lex Fridman (2:43:47.580)
You know, Miss Virginia, watch that movie.
Lex Fridman (2:43:50.380)
How could you not support black moms in this country
Lex Fridman (2:43:55.100)
to take the kids to safety when it comes to education?
Lex Fridman (2:43:57.580)
How come not?
Lex Fridman (2:43:59.060)
That's what I want to see happen.
Lex Fridman (2:44:00.780)
And not like some, yeah, let's go to some classrooms
Lex Fridman (2:44:04.500)
and everybody's white.
Magatte Wade (2:44:05.740)
You go over here.
Lex Fridman (2:44:06.660)
Everybody's a next date.
Magatte Wade (2:44:07.900)
You go over here.
Lex Fridman (2:44:08.900)
And kids, let us tell you about this.
Magatte Wade (2:44:10.580)
No, no, no, no.
Lex Fridman (2:44:13.220)
As a black person, I don't want you to do any of that crap.
Magatte Wade (2:44:17.500)
Let me grow my wings.
Lex Fridman (2:44:19.460)
Yeah.
Magatte Wade (2:44:20.300)
If you want, help put some fuel behind them
Lex Fridman (2:44:22.180)
and let me take my flight.
Magatte Wade (2:44:23.500)
That's all I'm asking for.
Lex Fridman (2:44:24.740)
That's the only way for you to be part of a racism battle
Magatte Wade (2:44:30.380)
if that's what you think is the most important battle
Lex Fridman (2:44:32.140)
of our life.
Magatte Wade (2:44:33.380)
That's it.
Lex Fridman (2:44:34.220)
That's what I have to say about that.
Lex Fridman (2:44:35.340)
And so for me, I'm keeping my head very straight.
Lex Fridman (2:44:37.580)
It's about what enables black people to thrive.
Magatte Wade (2:44:45.300)
I don't need for you to be an activist on my behalf.
Lex Fridman (2:44:48.980)
No, because when you're doing that,
Magatte Wade (2:44:50.380)
you're doing exactly what you've been doing to us
Lex Fridman (2:44:52.740)
black people in Africa our whole life.
Magatte Wade (2:44:55.140)
I don't need your white savior complex
Lex Fridman (2:44:56.900)
because that's what anti racism is.
Magatte Wade (2:44:58.380)
White savior complex.
Lex Fridman (2:44:59.340)
That stuff doesn't work.
Magatte Wade (2:45:00.620)
It only works to make you feel better
Lex Fridman (2:45:02.620)
about how superior you are to me.
Lex Fridman (2:45:04.340)
But it does nothing, absolutely nothing
Lex Fridman (2:45:06.980)
to change my everyday life.
Magatte Wade (2:45:08.380)
If it is not, if it is at least in the African side
Lex Fridman (2:45:11.220)
to actually even change my,
Magatte Wade (2:45:14.740)
turn me into somebody who's waiting for handouts.
Lex Fridman (2:45:17.500)
So I would encourage people to really,
Magatte Wade (2:45:20.780)
those people who are really serious
Lex Fridman (2:45:22.980)
about wanting to be part of a solution.
Lex Fridman (2:45:24.540)
And I know there are many out there
Lex Fridman (2:45:26.420)
for the love of God and everything that's out there
Lex Fridman (2:45:28.460)
and we care about, stop.
Lex Fridman (2:45:31.460)
It's about, think about what's gonna enable people.
Magatte Wade (2:45:39.100)
Maybe the word is wrongly chosen,
Lex Fridman (2:45:40.620)
but know what I'm talking about.
Magatte Wade (2:45:42.300)
Give them the freedom to spread their wings.
Lex Fridman (2:45:44.940)
Yes, give a person, teach a person how to fish
Lex Fridman (2:45:49.020)
and don't give them a fish.
Lex Fridman (2:45:50.660)
When you're putting your stupid signs on the lawn
Magatte Wade (2:45:53.020)
with Black Lives Matter and all that crap,
Lex Fridman (2:45:55.020)
you're not helping.
Lex Fridman (2:45:55.980)
And when you're buying one more anti racism book
Lex Fridman (2:45:58.420)
or as a company, financing one more DEI,
Magatte Wade (2:46:04.060)
if it done along those lines, I think we've got a problem.
Lex Fridman (2:46:06.940)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:46:07.780)
So you do think that the efforts of diversity,
Lex Fridman (2:46:11.980)
equity and inclusion are often not effective.
Magatte Wade (2:46:16.220)
Not only are they not effective,
Lex Fridman (2:46:17.300)
but they also backfire and there are reports on all of this.
Lex Fridman (2:46:22.700)
And at the end of the day, it makes sense.
Lex Fridman (2:46:25.420)
It makes sense.
Lex Fridman (2:46:26.740)
So for me, I am very, very glad
Lex Fridman (2:46:29.700)
that people have developed an enlightenment about this.
Magatte Wade (2:46:35.140)
Very happy about that, very.
Lex Fridman (2:46:37.540)
But let us not keep going
Magatte Wade (2:46:39.420)
for the easy perceived solution to problems.
Lex Fridman (2:46:44.100)
Again, they've done this to us, the poor people of Africa.
Magatte Wade (2:46:47.900)
They thought the solution was to give.
Lex Fridman (2:46:51.860)
It does not work.
Lex Fridman (2:46:53.900)
And then they say, oh, we're gonna do social entrepreneurship
Lex Fridman (2:46:59.020)
on you, Tom shoes, buy one pair of shoes
Lex Fridman (2:47:00.740)
and we give one pair of shoes
Lex Fridman (2:47:01.980)
to some people in poor countries.
Lex Fridman (2:47:04.540)
Then guess what happened to us?
Lex Fridman (2:47:07.180)
You know, in the town where we operate in Senegal,
Magatte Wade (2:47:09.300)
where I have my little manufacturing,
Lex Fridman (2:47:12.660)
we have 2000 little mom and pop businesses.
Lex Fridman (2:47:15.940)
And guess what they happen to be in Lex?
Lex Fridman (2:47:18.620)
Shoemakers, right?
Lex Fridman (2:47:21.340)
So every shoemakers, each one of them hires
Lex Fridman (2:47:24.180)
at least five, 15 people.
Magatte Wade (2:47:26.180)
Do the math, family businesses.
Lex Fridman (2:47:30.580)
Guess what happens to them the day the Tom shoes truck
Magatte Wade (2:47:34.420)
shows up with bunch of free shoes.
Lex Fridman (2:47:39.140)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:47:39.980)
Who can compete against free?
Lex Fridman (2:47:42.260)
Now, all of these people,
Magatte Wade (2:47:43.620)
little by little gonna have to close their shops
Lex Fridman (2:47:45.260)
because who can compete against free
Magatte Wade (2:47:46.740)
because Tom shoes dumping all of his shoes on them.
Lex Fridman (2:47:49.620)
And then they go out of business
Lex Fridman (2:47:50.540)
and now instead of helping anybody,
Lex Fridman (2:47:53.220)
you actually sent all the kids
Magatte Wade (2:47:54.980)
who depended on these adults working in these places.
Lex Fridman (2:47:59.020)
Now they have to join the rank of kids
Magatte Wade (2:48:00.460)
who need to be given shoes
Lex Fridman (2:48:01.820)
because you took their parents ability
Magatte Wade (2:48:05.780)
to make money through their wages, buy them shoes.
Lex Fridman (2:48:11.460)
You see?
Lex Fridman (2:48:12.300)
So first they said, we just have to give.
Lex Fridman (2:48:14.140)
So that was primarily, you know, the charity business.
Lex Fridman (2:48:19.100)
And you still have foreign aid business going on.
Lex Fridman (2:48:22.620)
So we just need to give.
Lex Fridman (2:48:24.380)
And then the social entrepreneurs came in place,
Lex Fridman (2:48:27.460)
but I'm like, the only person for this business is good
Magatte Wade (2:48:29.780)
is for Blake McCarthy, you know, the founder of Tom shoes.
Lex Fridman (2:48:32.700)
But other than that, I'm not sure really seeing
Magatte Wade (2:48:34.820)
who else is winning from this.
Lex Fridman (2:48:36.580)
And then they, and so today my whole thing is
Magatte Wade (2:48:41.100)
we got a challenge to have a mind for the poor
Lex Fridman (2:48:46.100)
or to have a mind for the lesser fortunate,
Magatte Wade (2:48:49.060)
maybe in this country, it is easy.
Lex Fridman (2:48:52.260)
And lesser fortunate, you know,
Magatte Wade (2:48:53.980)
for anybody that you feel like is being trampled upon
Lex Fridman (2:48:57.180)
because of something,
Magatte Wade (2:48:58.100)
maybe it's because of economic circumstances,
Lex Fridman (2:49:00.660)
or maybe it's race in this case, whatever.
Magatte Wade (2:49:04.540)
To have a heart for the lesser fortunate among us,
Lex Fridman (2:49:08.100)
for whatever reason, that's easy.
Lex Fridman (2:49:12.580)
But to have a mind for them, that's the challenge.
Lex Fridman (2:49:16.860)
Let me ask you a difficult question.
Magatte Wade (2:49:18.540)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (2:49:19.500)
As if we were not already asking difficult questions.
Magatte Wade (2:49:22.700)
The president of Senegal, Macky Saw,
Lex Fridman (2:49:26.620)
is also now the chair of the African Union.
Magatte Wade (2:49:29.820)
He met with the president of Vladimir Putin on June 3rd.
Lex Fridman (2:49:35.180)
I think primarily was to discuss food security.
Magatte Wade (2:49:40.300)
Africa seems to be split halfway on their perspective
Lex Fridman (2:49:45.380)
in the war in Ukraine.
Lex Fridman (2:49:46.820)
So broadly speaking, what do you think about this?
Lex Fridman (2:49:51.620)
First of all, the geopolitics of Africa
Lex Fridman (2:49:54.700)
and the geopolitical relationship of Africa
Lex Fridman (2:49:58.260)
with the rest of the world and this current conflict
Magatte Wade (2:50:03.340)
with the war in Ukraine.
Lex Fridman (2:50:05.420)
What are your thoughts there?
Magatte Wade (2:50:06.980)
Well, you've seen that many countries
Lex Fridman (2:50:09.500)
when it was time to vote, some of them abstained,
Magatte Wade (2:50:12.980)
which in a way says something.
Lex Fridman (2:50:15.580)
I think for the Africans today,
Magatte Wade (2:50:17.780)
especially as represented by the African Union,
Lex Fridman (2:50:20.100)
because not all countries fall along the same lines,
Magatte Wade (2:50:23.980)
I feel like, again, we're back to way back.
Lex Fridman (2:50:27.100)
For the longest time, the West tries to tell us what to do.
Magatte Wade (2:50:30.860)
They decide for us.
Lex Fridman (2:50:32.780)
And here, there's trouble,
Magatte Wade (2:50:37.420)
meaning there's definitely a rift, major one,
Lex Fridman (2:50:42.300)
between most of the Western world
Magatte Wade (2:50:44.300)
as represented by Europe and America primarily,
Lex Fridman (2:50:48.020)
and you have Australia and all that.
Lex Fridman (2:50:50.980)
And then they're saying,
Lex Fridman (2:50:54.900)
I think this is more or less an attempt
Magatte Wade (2:50:56.900)
to stand on their own as well.
Lex Fridman (2:51:03.220)
It's like, don't tell us what to do as usual.
Magatte Wade (2:51:07.220)
You always rope us in with, when it makes sense for you,
Lex Fridman (2:51:09.700)
you try to rope us in,
Lex Fridman (2:51:10.820)
and then we're left hanging on our own.
Lex Fridman (2:51:13.020)
So this goes back to the sentiment
Magatte Wade (2:51:15.020)
you were talking about earlier.
Lex Fridman (2:51:16.820)
It's been challenging for me to watch this
Magatte Wade (2:51:22.500)
because remember, I have one foot also,
Lex Fridman (2:51:26.500)
because there's what I get to see and hear
Magatte Wade (2:51:29.660)
from being in the Western world,
Lex Fridman (2:51:31.860)
but there's also what I get to see and hear
Magatte Wade (2:51:34.260)
from when I'm back home.
Lex Fridman (2:51:37.060)
So I wear all hats.
Lex Fridman (2:51:39.660)
And I think this is a situation
Lex Fridman (2:51:41.700)
where the African Union and African nations in general
Magatte Wade (2:51:47.540)
are saying, this is a case where almost like,
Lex Fridman (2:51:52.740)
you guys are fighting, you guys are fighting.
Magatte Wade (2:51:56.580)
Maybe for once, we have to watch out for ourselves.
Lex Fridman (2:51:59.500)
Yeah, there's a sense in which this is the embodiment
Magatte Wade (2:52:04.500)
sort of abstaining from a vote on the war in Ukraine
Lex Fridman (2:52:09.700)
is a political embodiment of a resistance
Magatte Wade (2:52:12.980)
to the influence of the West.
Lex Fridman (2:52:14.900)
It's not about the war between,
Magatte Wade (2:52:16.860)
whatever you guys are fighting.
Lex Fridman (2:52:18.460)
It's saying, we're not going to let this particular empire
Magatte Wade (2:52:24.940)
that seems to be at the top right now,
Lex Fridman (2:52:26.940)
which is the United States empire in Europe,
Magatte Wade (2:52:30.340)
to dominate our political discourse,
Lex Fridman (2:52:33.780)
our geopolitical considerations.
Magatte Wade (2:52:36.580)
It's almost like, no, we're not touching this.
Lex Fridman (2:52:38.940)
Yeah, especially that given usually.
Lex Fridman (2:52:40.820)
So when they need us, again, for influence,
Lex Fridman (2:52:43.860)
which means more power,
Magatte Wade (2:52:45.260)
oh, you guys vote the same way we do.
Lex Fridman (2:52:47.740)
And when it's all over and they go back to spreading,
Lex Fridman (2:52:52.900)
they go back to, how do you say that?
Lex Fridman (2:52:54.420)
They go back to exchanging and sharing between themselves
Magatte Wade (2:52:59.180)
the goodies of their Halloween collection.
Lex Fridman (2:53:03.900)
We're no longer, we're not there
Magatte Wade (2:53:05.380)
when the goodies are being shared.
Lex Fridman (2:53:07.580)
So I think it's definitely one of those situations.
Lex Fridman (2:53:11.540)
But for me, it still is hard
Lex Fridman (2:53:14.540)
because I watch everything that's going on
Lex Fridman (2:53:18.460)
and it's going to be complicated,
Lex Fridman (2:53:23.260)
the ramifications of all of this.
Magatte Wade (2:53:25.260)
I would like to see our African leaders also,
Lex Fridman (2:53:28.660)
what they're doing is clear,
Lex Fridman (2:53:30.500)
but this is a place where I'm also tempted to say,
Lex Fridman (2:53:35.820)
yes and.
Magatte Wade (2:53:39.340)
Yes to the reasons you're advancing right now,
Lex Fridman (2:53:44.180)
we don't want to be always siding because we're tired.
Magatte Wade (2:53:47.220)
We're tired of always being dragged around
Lex Fridman (2:53:49.460)
and taken for granted and you vote our way.
Magatte Wade (2:53:53.020)
Come on guys, when you need us,
Lex Fridman (2:53:55.580)
we're great and everything is good.
Lex Fridman (2:53:57.260)
And then when it's time to go and share the goodies,
Lex Fridman (2:53:59.660)
we don't exist anymore.
Lex Fridman (2:54:01.180)
And you actually go for policies that go against us.
Lex Fridman (2:54:04.580)
But in this situation though,
Magatte Wade (2:54:07.260)
I would like to still see us do the right thing.
Lex Fridman (2:54:09.820)
In my case, I was not very happy to see us going
Lex Fridman (2:54:15.260)
and more or less begging for,
Lex Fridman (2:54:20.180)
what do you call it?
Magatte Wade (2:54:21.300)
Cereals, oh, please let the cereals make it.
Lex Fridman (2:54:26.180)
So at least we get them and we don't starve.
Magatte Wade (2:54:29.180)
I can understand why a president would say something
Lex Fridman (2:54:32.660)
like that or try to negotiate something like that.
Lex Fridman (2:54:36.500)
But when it comes to an African president having to do that
Lex Fridman (2:54:41.300)
with a non African president, I'm sorry,
Lex Fridman (2:54:45.380)
but for me, it's too close to begging.
Lex Fridman (2:54:47.860)
Listen, it's hard to be a leader,
Magatte Wade (2:54:49.180)
it's such a difficult dance because in some sense,
Lex Fridman (2:54:52.180)
sort of the flip side of that is you're creating a market,
Magatte Wade (2:54:59.620)
a geopolitical market of saying,
Lex Fridman (2:55:01.740)
we're willing to sit down at the table with America,
Magatte Wade (2:55:05.460)
with European leaders, with Russian leaders, with China,
Lex Fridman (2:55:10.900)
and we're gonna let you guys convince us
Magatte Wade (2:55:13.940)
who we should collaborate with.
Lex Fridman (2:55:17.140)
And that's what sort of great nations
Lex Fridman (2:55:21.740)
and groups of nations do.
Lex Fridman (2:55:23.580)
Now, there's a cynical, of course,
Magatte Wade (2:55:25.580)
a dark perspective on that because what's in that game
Lex Fridman (2:55:29.860)
played by leaders, the people that hurt,
Magatte Wade (2:55:32.260)
people of Ukraine hurt, people of Africa can hurt.
Lex Fridman (2:55:36.420)
People of Russia.
Magatte Wade (2:55:37.340)
People of Russia can hurt, people of China,
Lex Fridman (2:55:40.140)
people of United States, but it is the way of the world.
Lex Fridman (2:55:44.940)
And to earn, you have to earn respect
Lex Fridman (2:55:49.020)
and sometimes earning respect leads to the suffering
Magatte Wade (2:55:52.300)
of many.
Lex Fridman (2:55:53.140)
Well, but except in this case, yes to all of that.
Lex Fridman (2:55:56.140)
And the reason why I'm actually upset
Lex Fridman (2:55:59.820)
with going and being like, oh, can you let at least
Magatte Wade (2:56:02.780)
the boats that are supposed to come to Africa
Lex Fridman (2:56:05.100)
full of cereals come over, the wheat and all that?
Magatte Wade (2:56:08.100)
It's just like, look, Africa has the highest land
Lex Fridman (2:56:11.540)
that you can do agriculture on.
Magatte Wade (2:56:13.220)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (2:56:14.060)
You know?
Magatte Wade (2:56:14.900)
We have a larger surface, such surface in the world.
Lex Fridman (2:56:19.100)
Why is this not a time for us to try
Magatte Wade (2:56:21.500)
to win ourselves off of cereals that we don't necessarily
Lex Fridman (2:56:24.420)
have on the ground?
Lex Fridman (2:56:26.420)
But no, let us go and plead.
Lex Fridman (2:56:30.180)
Don't beg, create instead.
Magatte Wade (2:56:31.900)
Create instead, exactly.
Lex Fridman (2:56:33.340)
This should have been, you know, just like how
Magatte Wade (2:56:35.220)
the rest of the world when COVID happened
Lex Fridman (2:56:38.020)
and China had to close off for different reasons
Lex Fridman (2:56:40.300)
and since then has not, you know, completely reopened
Lex Fridman (2:56:42.620)
and people have started to realize, wow,
Magatte Wade (2:56:44.940)
we've got too much, we're too dependent on China
Lex Fridman (2:56:48.660)
for a lot of what we need.
Lex Fridman (2:56:50.620)
So we're gonna have to bring back some production
Lex Fridman (2:56:53.060)
to the US, the Europeans are doing the same, all of that.
Magatte Wade (2:56:56.220)
This should have been a time for African leaders
Lex Fridman (2:56:59.300)
to be like, we need to be serious now
Magatte Wade (2:57:02.100)
about, you know, food security.
Lex Fridman (2:57:05.860)
And maybe the stuff that maybe don't grow
Magatte Wade (2:57:08.380)
under our climates necessarily,
Lex Fridman (2:57:10.140)
can we work on coming up with different things?
Magatte Wade (2:57:12.500)
Now I understand that it can take time,
Lex Fridman (2:57:14.540)
but if I knew that that was happening at the same time
Magatte Wade (2:57:17.540)
that we're saying, oh, well, let the cereals come in,
Lex Fridman (2:57:20.260)
maybe I would be a little bit easier with it.
Lex Fridman (2:57:22.260)
But right now I'm just like,
Lex Fridman (2:57:23.740)
is it gonna be the same business as usual?
Lex Fridman (2:57:25.580)
And in this case, I'm just like, are we gonna go,
Lex Fridman (2:57:27.660)
are we gonna keep going from one masa to another masa?
Lex Fridman (2:57:30.980)
I mean, really?
Lex Fridman (2:57:32.820)
The interesting aspect of all of this
Magatte Wade (2:57:35.100)
is if we look at all of human history,
Lex Fridman (2:57:37.020)
it's possible that the 21st century is defined by Africa.
Magatte Wade (2:57:40.380)
It will be.
Lex Fridman (2:57:41.820)
And the young people, the huge number of young people,
Magatte Wade (2:57:45.620)
it's like the trajectory could be,
Lex Fridman (2:57:47.300)
there's so much possibility to define
Magatte Wade (2:57:49.660)
the future of human civilization in Africa.
Lex Fridman (2:57:52.540)
And I don't mean sort of in the next 10 years,
Magatte Wade (2:57:55.460)
I mean in the next 50 years.
Lex Fridman (2:57:59.380)
So some people are concerned about overpopulation.
Magatte Wade (2:58:03.260)
Some people are concerned about us dying out
Lex Fridman (2:58:06.460)
as a human species.
Lex Fridman (2:58:07.740)
And both of those people live in us.
Lex Fridman (2:58:12.260)
Talk to me often about that.
Magatte Wade (2:58:13.460)
I know, I know, I know, I know who they are.
Lex Fridman (2:58:19.300)
What's your, in Africa is at the center of this
Magatte Wade (2:58:22.700)
because there is a vibrant, huge number,
Lex Fridman (2:58:26.420)
probably over a billion people.
Magatte Wade (2:58:28.820)
Yeah, we're 1.3 billion people
Lex Fridman (2:58:30.540)
and of those, one billion blacks.
Lex Fridman (2:58:33.460)
I mean that, where do you land on that?
Lex Fridman (2:58:36.740)
There is a reason why I say I'm haunted,
Magatte Wade (2:58:41.860)
that I'm obsessed, that I'm monomaniacal
Lex Fridman (2:58:45.500)
when it comes to the free markets
Lex Fridman (2:58:47.300)
and that I have such a strong sense of urgency
Lex Fridman (2:58:50.260)
to the point that literally it is affecting me.
Lex Fridman (2:58:53.660)
And it has to do with the fact that yes,
Lex Fridman (2:58:56.060)
you have the youngest region on earth
Magatte Wade (2:58:58.500)
in terms of the age of its population
Lex Fridman (2:59:01.340)
and the rate at which it's growing demographic wise,
Magatte Wade (2:59:06.900)
I am not willing to stay there and say,
Lex Fridman (2:59:10.100)
it's a curse for humanity,
Lex Fridman (2:59:12.340)
but it will be a curse for humanity
Lex Fridman (2:59:15.020)
if we don't make sure that these people,
Magatte Wade (2:59:20.460)
our youth gets to partake.
Lex Fridman (2:59:25.980)
And what it takes to partake is not much.
Lex Fridman (2:59:29.020)
So if the rest of the world thinks that
Lex Fridman (2:59:31.580)
get to partake means you have to send more foreign aid,
Magatte Wade (2:59:35.060)
you have to have more charity businesses,
Lex Fridman (2:59:38.740)
I mean charity organizations sending stuff away,
Magatte Wade (2:59:42.500)
of course, you're almost thinking parasites.
Lex Fridman (2:59:46.660)
I'm sorry to say it this way,
Magatte Wade (2:59:48.180)
if this is what you're thinking,
Lex Fridman (2:59:49.980)
you're seeing us as no more than parasites.
Lex Fridman (2:59:52.980)
And if that's what it's gonna be,
Lex Fridman (2:59:55.780)
I could see why some people might be worried about that.
Magatte Wade (2:59:59.380)
Although humans should never be seen as parasites,
Lex Fridman (30:00.160)
That question, Lex, I had it when I was seven or so.
Magatte Wade (30:05.160)
That's when my family moved me to South Korea
Lex Fridman (30:09.440)
to from Senegal for the first time of my life,
Magatte Wade (30:12.120)
I left my country, I left my continent
Lex Fridman (30:14.400)
and I was headed to Europe to go join my people,
Magatte Wade (30:17.360)
my family, my parents who were there as economic migrants.
Lex Fridman (30:21.800)
My parents had migrated for a better life
Magatte Wade (30:24.600)
as so many people have to,
Lex Fridman (30:27.080)
so many people have to coming from poorer places,
Magatte Wade (30:29.880)
coming from low income countries.
Lex Fridman (30:31.360)
You saw the difference?
Magatte Wade (30:32.680)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (30:33.520)
Between the two places.
Lex Fridman (30:35.800)
How else would you call it?
Lex Fridman (30:37.240)
Here you are in Senegal,
Magatte Wade (30:38.960)
minding your own business,
Lex Fridman (30:40.120)
causing tons of trouble everywhere,
Magatte Wade (30:42.160)
just being a happy free wrench kid that I was.
Lex Fridman (30:45.440)
Yeah, so you were always a troublemaker, not just now.
Magatte Wade (30:48.440)
Okay, great.
Lex Fridman (30:49.280)
Life wouldn't be fun without it.
Magatte Wade (30:50.120)
Yeah, of course, I agree.
Lex Fridman (30:51.680)
Right?
Magatte Wade (30:52.520)
So, because even you,
Lex Fridman (30:53.360)
and you're all put together front,
Magatte Wade (30:55.720)
I know there's a lot of troublemaking behind you.
Lex Fridman (30:57.920)
Desperately trying to keep it together.
Magatte Wade (30:59.840)
I know you are, but with me,
Lex Fridman (31:01.280)
I'm gonna totally bring it out.
Lex Fridman (31:02.600)
So just, yeah.
Lex Fridman (31:03.920)
So.
Lex Fridman (31:04.760)
So you saw the difference.
Lex Fridman (31:05.600)
Right, I saw the difference.
Magatte Wade (31:06.600)
I'm walking in here, back home,
Lex Fridman (31:09.320)
and I tell people this story
Magatte Wade (31:10.360)
because to me it's a defining story.
Lex Fridman (31:13.400)
Back home, to take a shower, it takes time.
Magatte Wade (31:18.240)
Grandma has to make the charcoal catch
Lex Fridman (31:21.760)
on a little stove like you use when you go camping.
Lex Fridman (31:25.680)
And then she puts a pot of water on it, it boils.
Lex Fridman (31:28.640)
She takes it, puts it in a bigger bucket,
Magatte Wade (31:30.640)
mixes it with some colder water.
Lex Fridman (31:32.400)
Then we put a little pot in it,
Lex Fridman (31:34.400)
and a stronger member of the family
Lex Fridman (31:36.080)
has to drag it to the shower.
Lex Fridman (31:37.720)
And then there, finally, I can proceed to take my shower.
Lex Fridman (31:42.040)
Here I'm in Germany in the middle of the winter,
Lex Fridman (31:43.760)
and my mom's like,
Lex Fridman (31:44.600)
my god, time for your shower.
Magatte Wade (31:45.680)
I'm like, I'm not getting naked.
Lex Fridman (31:47.400)
Where is the bottle?
Lex Fridman (31:48.240)
Where is the bucket of hot water?
Lex Fridman (31:51.240)
She's like, oh, you silly, come on, just jump in.
Lex Fridman (31:53.640)
And I jump in the shower, turn the buttons,
Lex Fridman (31:55.760)
the water is coming down temperature.
Magatte Wade (31:56.960)
I'm like playing with.
Lex Fridman (31:58.280)
It's like, are you kidding me?
Lex Fridman (32:00.240)
So amazing.
Lex Fridman (32:01.080)
I've been cheated out of life my whole life.
Lex Fridman (32:03.520)
So that's what happened.
Lex Fridman (32:05.040)
And then I'm like, oh, and all of these roads,
Magatte Wade (32:08.480)
they're paved roads.
Lex Fridman (32:09.360)
And like back home, everything is like sandy,
Lex Fridman (32:11.920)
and my feet are always ash.
Lex Fridman (32:13.640)
I always have to wash off when I go back home,
Lex Fridman (32:16.160)
and your shoes get ruined most of the time.
Lex Fridman (32:20.000)
And it started, and I had this question,
Lex Fridman (32:22.200)
and it was just like, wow, how come they have this?
Lex Fridman (32:25.160)
And we don't.
Lex Fridman (32:26.720)
So I was not being like, oh, you know,
Lex Fridman (32:28.840)
how come they have all of this money?
Lex Fridman (32:30.440)
I was not, it was just like, how come?
Lex Fridman (32:32.600)
And I think what I was alluding to was,
Lex Fridman (32:34.760)
how come life is so easy here, and back home it's not?
Lex Fridman (32:39.240)
And easy, not in a negative sense, in a beautiful sense.
Magatte Wade (32:43.240)
Sometimes I get, you know, just having traveled
Lex Fridman (32:46.200)
through the war zone, just to come back,
Magatte Wade (32:48.120)
traveling through Europe, back to America,
Lex Fridman (32:50.640)
it just, I'll just get emotional just looking
Magatte Wade (32:53.040)
at the efficiency of things, like how easy it is,
Lex Fridman (32:56.520)
how we can, first of all, in Ukraine,
Lex Fridman (33:00.400)
you currently can't fly, right?
Lex Fridman (33:02.320)
It's a war zone.
Magatte Wade (33:03.200)
Just even the transportation, you said roads.
Lex Fridman (33:06.360)
Yeah, the quality of roads in the United States is amazing.
Magatte Wade (33:09.480)
Just not, you know, many of the places
Lex Fridman (33:11.680)
that drive in Ukraine, you're talking about,
Magatte Wade (33:14.880)
I mean, really bad conditions of roads.
Lex Fridman (33:19.240)
And I'm sure in many parts of Africa
Lex Fridman (33:21.240)
and many parts of the world, the roads are even worse.
Lex Fridman (33:23.680)
Right, right.
Lex Fridman (33:24.680)
And outdoor, you know, having an indoor toilet
Lex Fridman (33:28.320)
is a fascinatingly awesome luxury to have.
Magatte Wade (33:32.400)
It is, it is.
Lex Fridman (33:33.600)
And don't take me wrong, Lex.
Lex Fridman (33:35.400)
Do we have some great roads now in many parts of Africa?
Lex Fridman (33:41.360)
Yes, main arteries, great roads,
Magatte Wade (33:44.040)
you're like, whoa, this is moving.
Lex Fridman (33:46.880)
Yes, we do.
Lex Fridman (33:48.640)
But definitely more today than in my time growing up.
Lex Fridman (33:53.960)
Do we have, you know, a country like Nigeria
Lex Fridman (33:58.120)
that just birthed six unicorns last year alone?
Lex Fridman (34:02.200)
Yes.
Magatte Wade (34:03.200)
Do we have the African youth out there
Lex Fridman (34:06.440)
being so amazing and, you know, living their lives?
Magatte Wade (34:10.080)
Yes, we have all of that.
Lex Fridman (34:12.440)
But it is still, unfortunately,
Magatte Wade (34:14.760)
just like we're scratching the surface.
Lex Fridman (34:18.320)
And those people still are getting all of that accomplished
Magatte Wade (34:21.360)
literally swimming through molasses.
Lex Fridman (34:23.320)
This is some of the most gross,
Magatte Wade (34:27.120)
immoral, unfair waste of human capital.
Lex Fridman (34:35.840)
And so that is the, started with you as a seven year old
Magatte Wade (34:41.360)
asking, wait a minute,
Lex Fridman (34:43.320)
how do amazing people in Europe do this
Lex Fridman (34:48.320)
and the amazing people in Africa don't?
Lex Fridman (34:50.560)
Yeah, and that's a key word, amazing.
Magatte Wade (34:52.200)
Because that's what I realized later
Lex Fridman (34:55.160)
because it was not always like that for me,
Lex Fridman (34:57.520)
amazing and amazing, right?
Lex Fridman (34:59.160)
I knew instinctively that of course we are amazing too.
Lex Fridman (35:02.720)
But so eventually the question became how,
Lex Fridman (35:06.960)
so I went from how come they have this and we don't
Magatte Wade (35:09.440)
to the country as I'm growing up and researching
Lex Fridman (35:11.840)
because it stayed with me.
Magatte Wade (35:12.960)
When I tell you I'm obsessed, I'm haunted.
Lex Fridman (35:14.880)
I am haunted.
Lex Fridman (35:16.000)
So you can laugh all you want, but it's,
Lex Fridman (35:19.680)
so the question became, the question became,
Lex Fridman (35:23.080)
how come some countries like the United States,
Lex Fridman (35:27.760)
Singapore are rich and some others like mine
Lex Fridman (35:32.600)
and many others in Africa are poor?
Lex Fridman (35:35.040)
That became the question.
Lex Fridman (35:37.000)
And along the line, like along the road,
Lex Fridman (35:41.280)
I continued on living my life, wondering about this question.
Lex Fridman (35:45.840)
And I've heard all types of reasons
Lex Fridman (35:50.400)
as to supposedly why that might be the case.
Magatte Wade (35:53.840)
Some people with a very straight face
Lex Fridman (35:56.120)
are still peddling the IQ fury, according to which,
Magatte Wade (36:00.360)
come on, darling, it's not your fault.
Lex Fridman (36:03.000)
You know, your skin color goes with a gene sequence
Magatte Wade (36:05.520)
that just doesn't allow you to be as smart
Lex Fridman (36:07.840)
as white people are.
Lex Fridman (36:09.880)
And it's not your fault, but just accept it.
Lex Fridman (36:12.920)
That stuff is still out there.
Magatte Wade (36:14.320)
It's very real.
Lex Fridman (36:16.040)
I and I have to hear it.
Lex Fridman (36:17.800)
And others would say to me, oh, it's just because,
Lex Fridman (36:21.240)
you know, you guys don't have adequate level of education.
Lex Fridman (36:25.480)
And I say, you know, maybe you gotta go say that
Lex Fridman (36:29.400)
to most of the street sellers you go see in Senegal.
Magatte Wade (36:33.160)
You go up to any of these,
Lex Fridman (36:34.520)
to many of these street sellers in Senegal,
Magatte Wade (36:37.680)
they are wading through cars and moving cars
Lex Fridman (36:41.800)
under the hot sun, fumes thrown at their face,
Magatte Wade (36:48.160)
trying to sell you anything that you think
Lex Fridman (36:51.800)
you might be able to use.
Magatte Wade (36:53.400)
Whether we're talking about an ironing board
Lex Fridman (36:56.920)
to an umbrella, to Q tips,
Magatte Wade (36:59.800)
to, you know, toothpicks,
Lex Fridman (37:02.880)
selling you whatever you need from your car,
Magatte Wade (37:04.840)
these are street sellers.
Lex Fridman (37:06.400)
And you ask them, dear, do you have any degree?
Magatte Wade (37:10.800)
Yeah, I have this great degree in math
Lex Fridman (37:14.520)
or in literature or whatever.
Magatte Wade (37:17.560)
Some very, very educated people.
Lex Fridman (37:20.280)
Yet they're right there, this is what they're doing.
Lex Fridman (37:22.520)
So that's just at scale wasted human potential.
Lex Fridman (37:28.560)
Thank you.
Lex Fridman (37:29.400)
So that has to do, the wasted human potential
Lex Fridman (37:32.440)
has to do now with the system,
Magatte Wade (37:35.000)
with something about the laws.
Lex Fridman (37:37.320)
Which is, yeah.
Magatte Wade (37:38.880)
Something about sort of the things that limit
Lex Fridman (37:43.560)
or enable the entrepreneur.
Magatte Wade (37:45.680)
Yes, because at that point I've heard this,
Lex Fridman (37:48.880)
you know, I heard people say,
Magatte Wade (37:50.360)
yeah, your IQ is no good.
Lex Fridman (37:52.520)
Yeah, you don't have enough degrees
Magatte Wade (37:54.440)
or you're not educated.
Lex Fridman (37:56.000)
Yeah, some people would even say,
Magatte Wade (37:57.280)
it's because you guys are malnourished,
Lex Fridman (37:58.680)
you're malnourished, you need to be fed.
Magatte Wade (38:01.400)
Others, oh, well, maybe I'll give you some shoes
Lex Fridman (38:03.800)
and maybe something is gonna change, whatever.
Lex Fridman (38:06.000)
And then, so I heard all of this nonsense, Lex,
Lex Fridman (38:08.840)
but you guess what, but guess what?
Magatte Wade (38:09.920)
None of them made sense.
Lex Fridman (38:10.760)
You know why it didn't make sense?
Magatte Wade (38:12.040)
Because if any of that crap was true,
Lex Fridman (38:14.600)
why, oh, why is it that my parents
Magatte Wade (38:19.080)
or any other people from these places,
Lex Fridman (38:22.720)
and oh, and by the way,
Magatte Wade (38:23.960)
some people call those places God forsaken land.
Lex Fridman (38:28.080)
That's also the type of cred you always have to hear
Magatte Wade (38:31.480)
when it's not just flat out,
Lex Fridman (38:33.280)
SHIT whole countries from, you know,
Magatte Wade (38:36.360)
one person a few years ago, president of this country.
Lex Fridman (38:40.240)
That sentiment is sometimes there.
Magatte Wade (38:42.520)
It is, it is.
Lex Fridman (38:44.240)
As I go on with my life,
Magatte Wade (38:45.600)
trying to find the answer to why are some countries
Lex Fridman (38:48.560)
like mine poor while others are rich,
Magatte Wade (38:50.160)
I'm hearing all of these reasons thrown at me.
Lex Fridman (38:53.880)
And then they make no sense because then how come then
Magatte Wade (38:57.440)
if my parents move as it is usually anyone else
Lex Fridman (39:01.800)
who moves from a poorer nation
Magatte Wade (39:04.920)
to a nation that supposedly is rich,
Lex Fridman (39:07.040)
all of a sudden they get to manifest the greatest potential.
Lex Fridman (39:12.560)
So I'm starting to think this has nothing to do
Lex Fridman (39:14.280)
with a person per se,
Magatte Wade (39:16.080)
because we're talking about the same person,
Lex Fridman (39:17.600)
same background, same name, features, everything.
Magatte Wade (39:20.960)
Now I'm starting to think
Lex Fridman (39:22.040)
maybe it doesn't have to do with a person.
Magatte Wade (39:24.160)
Maybe we're talking about something that has to do
Lex Fridman (39:26.720)
with a place that they came from
Magatte Wade (39:28.400)
or the place that they're going to.
Lex Fridman (39:30.160)
So this little thing is starting to be in my mind.
Magatte Wade (39:33.400)
Again, remember, this is not something
Lex Fridman (39:34.840)
that I woke up to overnight.
Magatte Wade (39:36.240)
I'm like, voila, I got my question.
Lex Fridman (39:38.240)
It took me for a long time.
Lex Fridman (39:39.560)
And I had to face off
Lex Fridman (39:42.240)
to have many different ideologies face each other.
Magatte Wade (39:44.880)
I had to really have a reckoning
Lex Fridman (39:46.360)
literally in my heart and in my mind.
Lex Fridman (39:50.120)
And so then that's what I'm thinking.
Lex Fridman (39:53.400)
It cannot be, no, no, no, it's the same people.
Magatte Wade (39:57.440)
It has to be about the place.
Lex Fridman (39:58.280)
It has to be about the place, but then what about this place?
Magatte Wade (3:00:04.260)
no matter, no matter, no matter.
Lex Fridman (3:00:07.500)
But some people will go there.
Magatte Wade (3:00:09.940)
Now, people are here.
Lex Fridman (3:00:14.340)
What are we gonna do, dispose of them?
Magatte Wade (3:00:16.580)
That's not an option.
Lex Fridman (3:00:18.060)
So the only option we have left
Magatte Wade (3:00:20.420)
is to make sure that people partake.
Lex Fridman (3:00:22.060)
And what partaking means is that
Magatte Wade (3:00:23.980)
people get included in them
Lex Fridman (3:00:26.740)
and are part of the systems that allow for human flourishing.
Lex Fridman (3:00:31.860)
And it doesn't, it's not much.
Lex Fridman (3:00:33.820)
In this case, it's about,
Lex Fridman (3:00:35.940)
can we be serious about the reforms?
Lex Fridman (3:00:38.820)
So we have free market zones,
Magatte Wade (3:00:41.780)
areas where people,
Lex Fridman (3:00:43.620)
where the flourishing can start to take place.
Magatte Wade (3:00:48.580)
The wealth that people will need to flourish,
Lex Fridman (3:00:52.660)
they don't need you to give it to them.
Lex Fridman (3:00:55.260)
But it's all about, can I let you fly?
Lex Fridman (3:00:58.580)
And you will make it happen for you and also for me.
Magatte Wade (3:01:02.500)
Every young African I see today,
Lex Fridman (3:01:05.060)
I realize how stupid the rest of the world is
Magatte Wade (3:01:07.820)
if they're not supporting what I'm trying to talk about.
Lex Fridman (3:01:11.540)
Cause even if you don't wanna do it
Magatte Wade (3:01:13.140)
because that's the right thing to do,
Lex Fridman (3:01:14.020)
which I think it is the right thing to do,
Magatte Wade (3:01:17.540)
your selfishness, maybe engage your selfishness.
Lex Fridman (3:01:20.580)
Cause this person right there,
Magatte Wade (3:01:21.940)
remember I told you seven billion geniuses,
Lex Fridman (3:01:24.740)
everybody came to this world
Magatte Wade (3:01:26.340)
with a piece of solution to the human problem.
Lex Fridman (3:01:30.500)
This person and that person and that person
Magatte Wade (3:01:34.260)
hold something for me because I'm part of humanity.
Lex Fridman (3:01:37.340)
This person might have a cure to a cancer
Magatte Wade (3:01:41.060)
that might take my wife out, the wife I haven't met yet.
Lex Fridman (3:01:44.340)
But this kid right here has it inside.
Lex Fridman (3:01:48.580)
And if I help this,
Lex Fridman (3:01:50.300)
if I make sure that this kid gets a chance to flourish
Lex Fridman (3:01:52.940)
and to manifest his genius or her genius,
Lex Fridman (3:01:56.460)
that trickle down many years later,
Magatte Wade (3:01:59.260)
comes straight back to serve me and the love of my life.
Lex Fridman (3:02:03.060)
If we can't see it any other way,
Magatte Wade (3:02:04.700)
maybe let's try to think about it that way.
Lex Fridman (3:02:07.020)
Cause it becomes a very good proposition at that point.
Lex Fridman (3:02:10.220)
So in this case, by 2050,
Lex Fridman (3:02:13.100)
Lagos, Nigeria will be the largest city in the world.
Magatte Wade (3:02:16.820)
The future is African, whether we want it or not.
Lex Fridman (3:02:19.820)
But is it going to be an African future
Lex Fridman (3:02:22.500)
where you have a youth being a ticking bomb?
Lex Fridman (3:02:27.020)
Because they have not, there's no hope.
Magatte Wade (3:02:30.500)
They stay in poverty
Lex Fridman (3:02:32.780)
because they belong to nations that don't even understand
Magatte Wade (3:02:34.980)
sometimes the importance of common law versus civil law.
Lex Fridman (3:02:39.260)
Because they're trapped in countries that don't understand
Magatte Wade (3:02:43.060)
that you need to make the legal framework
Lex Fridman (3:02:46.860)
to provide for better economic freedom.
Lex Fridman (3:02:49.260)
So you can unleash the genuineness, the awesomeness,
Lex Fridman (3:02:53.300)
the ingenuity, the industrious side of your young people,
Magatte Wade (3:02:57.340)
especially of your women,
Lex Fridman (3:02:59.580)
so that they build all the wealth
Magatte Wade (3:03:01.140)
that your nation is gonna need you to build.
Lex Fridman (3:03:03.380)
And with it, the respect that comes from that.
Magatte Wade (3:03:06.660)
See, we have a choice to make.
Lex Fridman (3:03:08.220)
And this is why I feel so, so, so restless about this
Magatte Wade (3:03:12.020)
at this point of my life.
Lex Fridman (3:03:14.260)
We just lost George Hayite.
Magatte Wade (3:03:17.140)
George Hayite is one of the few Africans that I knew
Lex Fridman (3:03:19.260)
who put this out.
Magatte Wade (3:03:22.820)
That's who I learned from.
Lex Fridman (3:03:24.140)
He's gone.
Lex Fridman (3:03:25.860)
And I feel a strong sense of urgency
Lex Fridman (3:03:29.580)
to not only bring back to the table
Magatte Wade (3:03:32.340)
that which he has been working on,
Lex Fridman (3:03:35.420)
but to also make sure that it gets seen.
Magatte Wade (3:03:37.860)
That's why being here talking with you today,
Lex Fridman (3:03:40.580)
it's, you have no idea.
Magatte Wade (3:03:44.300)
It's, people ask, if someone like you could say,
Lex Fridman (3:03:48.100)
what can I do?
Magatte Wade (3:03:49.300)
You did more than you could ever imagine
Lex Fridman (3:03:52.860)
by just allowing me to take this message to one more person.
Lex Fridman (3:03:57.380)
And because if we do this,
Lex Fridman (3:04:00.940)
the change is gonna happen somewhere down the line.
Magatte Wade (3:04:03.220)
So.
Lex Fridman (3:04:04.060)
Yeah, the ripple effects of all of that
Magatte Wade (3:04:04.980)
on the unlocking the human potential.
Lex Fridman (3:04:07.260)
It's unbelievable.
Magatte Wade (3:04:08.100)
All those people in Africa are building cool stuff,
Lex Fridman (3:04:12.300)
amazing things.
Magatte Wade (3:04:13.140)
Yes, yes, yes.
Lex Fridman (3:04:14.340)
So some are gonna be built stuff,
Magatte Wade (3:04:15.900)
others are gonna work on the reforms.
Lex Fridman (3:04:17.620)
So we're working on reforms, by the way.
Magatte Wade (3:04:19.140)
I'm the head of the Africa Center for Prosperity
Lex Fridman (3:04:22.940)
of the Atlas Network,
Magatte Wade (3:04:23.940)
the largest organization in the world
Lex Fridman (3:04:26.060)
working on taking down barriers of entry
Magatte Wade (3:04:27.980)
for entrepreneurs around the world
Lex Fridman (3:04:29.420)
in their respective countries.
Lex Fridman (3:04:31.020)
So we're doing great work there.
Lex Fridman (3:04:32.660)
I basically, all the, obviously all the think tanks
Magatte Wade (3:04:36.940)
we have in Africa right now, free market think tanks,
Lex Fridman (3:04:41.140)
and we wanna promote more of them to come up.
Lex Fridman (3:04:43.860)
And these are local solutions by local people
Lex Fridman (3:04:46.620)
for their local problems, always.
Magatte Wade (3:04:48.780)
That's where we draw the line.
Lex Fridman (3:04:50.220)
And so there, so we're working on reforms primarily
Lex Fridman (3:04:55.580)
and making people understand the free markets
Lex Fridman (3:04:57.180)
and the importance of it.
Lex Fridman (3:05:00.020)
But it is piecemeal legislation.
Lex Fridman (3:05:03.180)
It takes time.
Magatte Wade (3:05:04.700)
It is hard.
Lex Fridman (3:05:05.820)
By the time you accomplish something here,
Magatte Wade (3:05:07.940)
more crap has happened over here.
Lex Fridman (3:05:09.620)
More laws have been pounded up
Magatte Wade (3:05:10.900)
because you know how they fix a bad law most of the time.
Lex Fridman (3:05:13.460)
Whether it's in the US or somewhere else.
Magatte Wade (3:05:14.700)
Put other laws to kind of undo the law from before,
Lex Fridman (3:05:17.620)
but it keeps stacking up.
Lex Fridman (3:05:18.900)
And before you know it,
Lex Fridman (3:05:20.340)
where you should have one thing and it's clear,
Magatte Wade (3:05:22.500)
you have a hundred and they go against each other
Lex Fridman (3:05:24.380)
and then it's all, it's worse.
Lex Fridman (3:05:26.220)
So we have piecemeal legislation that's happening.
Lex Fridman (3:05:28.940)
Our teams are doing really amazing, fantastic work,
Magatte Wade (3:05:31.260)
especially the team in Imani in Ghana.
Lex Fridman (3:05:33.980)
We have a group in Burundi, in the Great Lakes.
Magatte Wade (3:05:37.100)
I mean, people are doing amazing work, amazing work,
Lex Fridman (3:05:40.460)
but we need to run faster.
Lex Fridman (3:05:42.100)
So while we keep, we help them running faster,
Lex Fridman (3:05:45.260)
we also have to unlock other things.
Lex Fridman (3:05:48.060)
And right now I'm working
Lex Fridman (3:05:49.060)
on one of my most craziest projects.
Magatte Wade (3:05:53.020)
Something bold, radical, crazy for some people.
Lex Fridman (3:05:57.140)
But I know we're not crazy
Magatte Wade (3:05:58.340)
because before us, Singapore has done it.
Lex Fridman (3:06:00.860)
You know, Hong Kong has done it.
Magatte Wade (3:06:03.380)
Latest, the most recent China with the SSEs,
Lex Fridman (3:06:05.940)
the special economic zones,
Magatte Wade (3:06:09.580)
some of the most radical free market zones in the world,
Lex Fridman (3:06:12.700)
they've done it.
Lex Fridman (3:06:13.740)
And oftentimes within a generation,
Lex Fridman (3:06:16.380)
meaningful change start to happen, right?
Lex Fridman (3:06:19.020)
So here, what I'm working on is this concept of,
Lex Fridman (3:06:23.700)
some call it charter cities, Paul Romer,
Magatte Wade (3:06:27.220)
others call it the free cities.
Lex Fridman (3:06:32.220)
And I like to call it startup cities.
Lex Fridman (3:06:35.060)
What these are is for us to think about,
Lex Fridman (3:06:37.420)
okay, if piecemeal legislation takes forever,
Magatte Wade (3:06:40.940)
while we have this demographic
Lex Fridman (3:06:43.820)
that's growing faster and faster in Africa,
Magatte Wade (3:06:46.780)
there is a discrepancy here
Lex Fridman (3:06:47.980)
between the progress we're making
Magatte Wade (3:06:51.020)
to set the right environment for business to prop up,
Lex Fridman (3:06:55.100)
and how many more people are coming to life,
Magatte Wade (3:06:58.660)
literally every day on the continent.
Lex Fridman (3:07:01.180)
There's a discrepancy here.
Lex Fridman (3:07:02.460)
And so, the ticking bomb is going faster
Lex Fridman (3:07:05.260)
than the progress we can make.
Magatte Wade (3:07:08.060)
This is a problem.
Lex Fridman (3:07:09.420)
So what some of us are working on
Magatte Wade (3:07:11.140)
is this concept of a startup cities
Lex Fridman (3:07:12.620)
and to say, piecemeal legislation takes too long.
Lex Fridman (3:07:17.220)
How about we continue doing that work,
Lex Fridman (3:07:18.860)
which is essential and critical,
Lex Fridman (3:07:20.740)
but at the same time, can we think of zones,
Lex Fridman (3:07:23.540)
and I like to call them also common law zones,
Magatte Wade (3:07:26.660)
where we basically try to have within the country
Lex Fridman (3:07:31.740)
an area where for business,
Magatte Wade (3:07:34.180)
I'm not talking about family law or any of that stuff,
Lex Fridman (3:07:36.180)
no one is touching your culture or anything like that,
Lex Fridman (3:07:38.220)
but we're just saying business wise,
Lex Fridman (3:07:40.980)
an enclave where you have the best practices
Magatte Wade (3:07:44.100)
from around the world, including yours,
Lex Fridman (3:07:46.340)
in terms of what constitute a great business environment
Lex Fridman (3:07:50.500)
and allow people in,
Lex Fridman (3:07:53.780)
like you get in freely or nobody's forcing you to go,
Magatte Wade (3:07:58.980)
nobody's forcing you to whatever.
Lex Fridman (3:08:00.740)
So basically, you're to think about
Magatte Wade (3:08:04.060)
this rather unoccupied plot of land within a country,
Lex Fridman (3:08:09.220)
think Dubai, on 110 acres of land,
Magatte Wade (3:08:12.780)
Dubai is thinking that in their case,
Lex Fridman (3:08:16.100)
they're like, maybe they decided,
Magatte Wade (3:08:17.980)
maybe Sharia law is not the best for business in their case.
Lex Fridman (3:08:20.740)
And they said, they looked around and were like,
Magatte Wade (3:08:22.380)
wow, but common law, especially British common law,
Lex Fridman (3:08:24.940)
seems like a very good one.
Lex Fridman (3:08:26.700)
So at that point, they decided for business only,
Lex Fridman (3:08:29.820)
not family or anything like that,
Magatte Wade (3:08:31.260)
which is gonna stand to Sharia or whatever.
Lex Fridman (3:08:33.500)
And so they said, we are gonna bring in,
Lex Fridman (3:08:38.500)
so they hired retired British common law judges
Lex Fridman (3:08:40.780)
to educate the law and train the people under there.
Lex Fridman (3:08:44.140)
And I'm oversimplifying, but at the end of the day,
Lex Fridman (3:08:47.820)
within a generation,
Magatte Wade (3:08:49.740)
Dubai became one of the top
Lex Fridman (3:08:53.060)
international financial centers of the world.
Magatte Wade (3:08:55.380)
It is what it is today.
Lex Fridman (3:08:58.900)
And in the case of the African nations,
Magatte Wade (3:09:00.820)
that zone can then spread.
Lex Fridman (3:09:02.620)
Yes, it can not only spread, but maybe let's say Senegal,
Magatte Wade (3:09:06.380)
if Senegal was to go for this, here you have this one,
Lex Fridman (3:09:09.180)
and then over there you have another zone.
Lex Fridman (3:09:11.100)
And then what they start to do
Lex Fridman (3:09:12.580)
is they're not all modeled the same way,
Magatte Wade (3:09:14.540)
because maybe this one is saying,
Lex Fridman (3:09:15.980)
hey, we wanna attract more, I don't know,
Lex Fridman (3:09:18.180)
maybe we wanna attract more medical research, right?
Lex Fridman (3:09:22.340)
This one is gonna be saying,
Magatte Wade (3:09:23.380)
maybe we wanna attract more crypto,
Lex Fridman (3:09:26.100)
or maybe it's gonna be more like us,
Magatte Wade (3:09:27.660)
we wanna be more about religious this or whatever.
Lex Fridman (3:09:29.980)
You know what I mean?
Lex Fridman (3:09:30.820)
So we wanted to fit more of this or that.
Lex Fridman (3:09:32.740)
And just kind of give the basics, the grounds,
Lex Fridman (3:09:36.740)
and then watch the magic happen on it, right?
Lex Fridman (3:09:40.500)
And so this is what we're working on.
Lex Fridman (3:09:43.500)
And the hope there, because some people are like,
Lex Fridman (3:09:46.540)
I know some people are like, you guys are crazy,
Lex Fridman (3:09:49.020)
but hey, I'm like, no, it's more or less the story
Lex Fridman (3:09:52.340)
of the Asian tigers.
Lex Fridman (3:09:55.780)
And most recently, most of China's progress,
Lex Fridman (3:09:59.620)
economically speaking, because some people might say,
Magatte Wade (3:10:01.380)
well, you don't want China, we're developing, you see.
Lex Fridman (3:10:05.380)
Even then I say, and it's okay, you can always do better,
Lex Fridman (3:10:10.660)
but we cannot deny what the magic
Lex Fridman (3:10:14.780)
that they have accomplished, what they have accomplished
Magatte Wade (3:10:16.740)
is nothing short of a miracle.
Lex Fridman (3:10:18.420)
800 million people getting out of poverty
Magatte Wade (3:10:20.660)
in such a short amount of time.
Lex Fridman (3:10:21.500)
Yeah, exactly.
Lex Fridman (3:10:22.340)
So it's not, yeah, for the quality of life
Lex Fridman (3:10:25.540)
and the majority of the Chinese population.
Magatte Wade (3:10:27.580)
Yes, yes.
Lex Fridman (3:10:28.420)
Does something like that happen without problems?
Magatte Wade (3:10:30.180)
Of course not.
Lex Fridman (3:10:31.660)
And so the next person to do something
Magatte Wade (3:10:33.780)
just actually gets to learn from lessons,
Lex Fridman (3:10:36.020)
from lessons, that's all.
Lex Fridman (3:10:37.340)
And leapfrog.
Lex Fridman (3:10:38.180)
And leapfrog, and leapfrog, exactly.
Lex Fridman (3:10:40.340)
So for me, this is a promise.
Lex Fridman (3:10:41.860)
And the people are like, oh, but you guys are crazy.
Lex Fridman (3:10:44.180)
But I'm like, just like with everything,
Lex Fridman (3:10:46.100)
do you know how many attempts it took
Lex Fridman (3:10:47.380)
before the first flight, the Wright brothers took off?
Lex Fridman (3:10:50.860)
Do you know how many?
Lex Fridman (3:10:52.620)
And that's important.
Lex Fridman (3:10:54.220)
You try, you crash, you try, you crash,
Lex Fridman (3:10:56.660)
but each time you're going up higher
Lex Fridman (3:10:59.340)
and you want to get up for once, then you stay up longer.
Lex Fridman (3:11:04.020)
And before you know it, you're doing all types of things.
Lex Fridman (3:11:06.660)
So here's the same thing.
Lex Fridman (3:11:07.580)
And I tell people, listen, all I need is one success story.
Lex Fridman (3:11:14.740)
And then the sea change.
Magatte Wade (3:11:17.620)
People don't even wait for us.
Lex Fridman (3:11:19.460)
Everybody.
Lex Fridman (3:11:20.500)
But this is hard because it's the first time.
Lex Fridman (3:11:24.380)
But the good news is there are many groups
Magatte Wade (3:11:26.740)
working on the continent.
Lex Fridman (3:11:28.460)
There are some groups in Zambia.
Magatte Wade (3:11:31.300)
There's a zone there.
Lex Fridman (3:11:32.460)
Folks are doing something like this in Nigeria.
Magatte Wade (3:11:35.020)
We're part of a project there in Nigeria.
Lex Fridman (3:11:37.820)
The one that I'm most excited about,
Magatte Wade (3:11:39.460)
I cannot disclose the name of the country yet.
Lex Fridman (3:11:41.420)
But my god, I'm so excited by it.
Lex Fridman (3:11:44.020)
And I just know, I just know, Lex,
Lex Fridman (3:11:46.220)
it's going to happen in our lifetime.
Magatte Wade (3:11:47.780)
I hope so.
Lex Fridman (3:11:48.500)
It's a really powerful vision.
Lex Fridman (3:11:49.980)
And it's not being dramatic to say
Lex Fridman (3:11:52.860)
that the future of humanity depends on your success,
Magatte Wade (3:11:57.300)
that success in Africa.
Lex Fridman (3:11:59.300)
It's such an important continent.
Magatte Wade (3:12:02.020)
It is.
Lex Fridman (3:12:02.500)
In this century.
Magatte Wade (3:12:03.220)
It's the continent where everything started.
Lex Fridman (3:12:05.580)
And I think it's the continent where that continent has
Magatte Wade (3:12:09.500)
to finally, finally, finally thrive.
Lex Fridman (3:12:11.300)
We cannot, all of us, call ourselves an enlightened
Magatte Wade (3:12:16.300)
society as a whole.
Lex Fridman (3:12:18.420)
When you have such, when you have this,
Magatte Wade (3:12:21.020)
it's a humongous continent.
Lex Fridman (3:12:22.300)
Have you seen the size of it?
Lex Fridman (3:12:24.700)
You know?
Lex Fridman (3:12:25.460)
Yeah.
Magatte Wade (3:12:26.300)
It's hard to fathom, actually.
Lex Fridman (3:12:28.620)
Yeah.
Magatte Wade (3:12:29.620)
Exactly.
Lex Fridman (3:12:30.460)
And it has such ingenious people.
Magatte Wade (3:12:33.020)
Sometimes I look at my people.
Lex Fridman (3:12:35.700)
I have to tell you, I'm so proud of them,
Lex Fridman (3:12:41.060)
and the young people, especially.
Lex Fridman (3:12:42.740)
And you know, you would look at them.
Lex Fridman (3:12:44.940)
And you know, somebody said sometimes one day,
Lex Fridman (3:12:47.100)
and it was so true, they said, you know,
Magatte Wade (3:12:49.580)
we've seen poverty other places.
Lex Fridman (3:12:52.260)
But here, it is just, maybe somebody doesn't have money,
Lex Fridman (3:12:56.980)
but they have dignity.
Lex Fridman (3:12:58.660)
And it's true.
Magatte Wade (3:13:00.100)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:13:00.740)
So everything else we can handle,
Lex Fridman (3:13:02.180)
and we will handle.
Lex Fridman (3:13:03.420)
You have to mark my word for this.
Magatte Wade (3:13:05.140)
This is going to happen.
Lex Fridman (3:13:06.660)
And our youth is amazing.
Magatte Wade (3:13:09.700)
You should see them.
Lex Fridman (3:13:11.260)
So full of creativity.
Lex Fridman (3:13:12.620)
And it doesn't matter.
Lex Fridman (3:13:13.580)
You know, you were telling me, what makes you different?
Magatte Wade (3:13:15.180)
Many things makes us all different.
Lex Fridman (3:13:16.740)
You know, the Rwandans are very different from the West
Magatte Wade (3:13:19.940)
Africans that we are.
Lex Fridman (3:13:21.740)
Rwandans, for example, never dance with their hips.
Magatte Wade (3:13:24.540)
They dance more like, you know, with this part of the body.
Lex Fridman (3:13:28.620)
West Africans hips?
Magatte Wade (3:13:30.060)
Us, it's hips all over the place, all the time.
Lex Fridman (3:13:32.260)
And it's, you know, more jumping, stuff like that.
Magatte Wade (3:13:34.620)
In Rwanda, you feel it's more like, you know,
Lex Fridman (3:13:36.380)
I mean, they remind me more of, you know, the ballet thing.
Magatte Wade (3:13:40.380)
Rwandans have a sense where, you know,
Lex Fridman (3:13:42.460)
they don't eat, you know, so much in public.
Magatte Wade (3:13:45.260)
It's not very well.
Lex Fridman (3:13:46.140)
It's something you do.
Magatte Wade (3:13:47.900)
Us, we are, the West Africans, we like to be loud.
Lex Fridman (3:13:50.140)
We're almost like the Italians of the continent.
Lex Fridman (3:13:53.660)
And then the Rwandans are more like, you know, the Swiss stuff.
Lex Fridman (3:13:56.220)
Actually, the country even looks like Switzerland.
Magatte Wade (3:13:58.420)
I mean, we're so different from one group to another.
Lex Fridman (3:14:00.780)
Then you go to the Congo and you see these guys,
Magatte Wade (3:14:02.860)
they're so crazy.
Lex Fridman (3:14:03.700)
We have a dress, I mean, les sapeurs.
Lex Fridman (3:14:05.500)
So we are a very different bunch.
Lex Fridman (3:14:08.460)
But you know what I love about us,
Lex Fridman (3:14:10.940)
what I love about my people?
Lex Fridman (3:14:18.660)
We are the manifestation of what resiliency means.
Lex Fridman (3:14:21.740)
And so everything we need is there.
Lex Fridman (3:14:26.740)
Everything we need is there.
Magatte Wade (3:14:29.220)
I will say that there's nothing wrong with the seed.
Lex Fridman (3:14:32.420)
Everything that's wrong with us
Magatte Wade (3:14:35.940)
is that pot that we put around us.
Lex Fridman (3:14:39.260)
So we're tired of being bonsai people.
Magatte Wade (3:14:43.140)
We need to be the tallest trees in the forest
Lex Fridman (3:14:45.780)
that we were designed to be.
Lex Fridman (3:14:47.180)
And so...
Lex Fridman (3:14:48.020)
And that can be fixed.
Lex Fridman (3:14:49.460)
And that can be fixed.
Lex Fridman (3:14:50.260)
And that's the beauty of it.
Lex Fridman (3:14:51.100)
And that's why I am so, I'm almost dizzy with,
Lex Fridman (3:14:54.740)
I get dizzy with hope.
Magatte Wade (3:14:57.500)
I know my history.
Lex Fridman (3:14:59.100)
I know my economics, my fellow humans and all of that.
Lex Fridman (3:15:03.620)
And we know that there's an unfailing recipe.
Lex Fridman (3:15:08.740)
And when it comes to that recipe,
Magatte Wade (3:15:10.020)
we have the hardest part of it.
Lex Fridman (3:15:13.180)
The one missing ingredient, which is the free markets.
Magatte Wade (3:15:18.220)
As we go around and talk and people start to understand
Lex Fridman (3:15:23.100)
and each country tries to figure out,
Lex Fridman (3:15:25.460)
okay, where do we go there from here?
Lex Fridman (3:15:29.660)
I know that I will die with my continent
Magatte Wade (3:15:35.140)
having taken the right shift for a turn.
Lex Fridman (3:15:38.860)
I don't have to see where it ends
Magatte Wade (3:15:40.180)
because I cannot in my wildest dream
Lex Fridman (3:15:42.260)
imagine where it's gonna end.
Lex Fridman (3:15:44.060)
But I know it's gonna be, yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:15:47.620)
So my only job is to get this message out
Lex Fridman (3:15:53.380)
and then let my people do with it what they wanna do.
Lex Fridman (3:15:56.340)
That's all.
Magatte Wade (3:15:57.180)
Yeah, the scale of impact is just boundless.
Lex Fridman (3:15:59.340)
It's kind of cool.
Magatte Wade (3:16:00.180)
I mean, sometimes we think about individual problems
Lex Fridman (3:16:02.620)
and how do we solve them?
Magatte Wade (3:16:03.580)
We look up at certain individuals,
Lex Fridman (3:16:05.780)
like the, I don't know, Steve Jobs and Elon Musk.
Lex Fridman (3:16:08.860)
But it's so much more powerful to just,
Lex Fridman (3:16:12.700)
without knowing what they will do,
Magatte Wade (3:16:15.180)
give the freedom to millions,
Lex Fridman (3:16:19.940)
to hundreds of millions of people
Magatte Wade (3:16:22.180)
to do whatever the hell they're gonna do.
Lex Fridman (3:16:23.820)
Can you imagine?
Lex Fridman (3:16:25.180)
Can you just imagine?
Lex Fridman (3:16:26.500)
It's truly, truly exciting.
Lex Fridman (3:16:27.740)
So in that sense, the work you're doing,
Lex Fridman (3:16:30.180)
it's unimaginable the kind of impact it would have.
Magatte Wade (3:16:33.580)
Now, going back to that hard moment,
Lex Fridman (3:16:36.180)
this dark place you went in your mind
Lex Fridman (3:16:38.900)
and your personal life story, you lost your husband.
Lex Fridman (3:16:41.860)
What gave you strength during that time?
Lex Fridman (3:16:44.980)
What were the places you went to your mind
Lex Fridman (3:16:49.060)
in terms of personal struggle,
Magatte Wade (3:16:52.780)
in terms of maybe even depression
Lex Fridman (3:16:54.700)
or these kinds of struggles?
Magatte Wade (3:16:57.940)
I think for me, when my person passed away,
Lex Fridman (3:17:03.020)
I went to,
Magatte Wade (3:17:08.180)
maybe my friends could see what was going on,
Lex Fridman (3:17:10.020)
maybe they couldn't, I don't know.
Lex Fridman (3:17:11.820)
But on the surface, I looked like I was fine.
Lex Fridman (3:17:14.420)
But what happened is the only thing I think
Magatte Wade (3:17:16.260)
that kept me around as I thought about it
Lex Fridman (3:17:19.900)
was the job to be done.
Magatte Wade (3:17:26.860)
These women relied on me and I was no longer free.
Lex Fridman (3:17:31.260)
I did not own myself.
Lex Fridman (3:17:32.380)
And they said it in those words,
Lex Fridman (3:17:33.420)
you don't own yourself anymore.
Lex Fridman (3:17:36.220)
And it was true, but it helped me
Lex Fridman (3:17:39.060)
because I was able to, you know,
Magatte Wade (3:17:43.780)
sometimes whatever it takes to keep you around,
Lex Fridman (3:17:45.860)
whatever it takes.
Lex Fridman (3:17:47.100)
And that's what I would tell people who feel like
Lex Fridman (3:17:49.180)
they can't just push one more push
Lex Fridman (3:17:51.820)
and they think they need to end it.
Lex Fridman (3:17:54.140)
At that point, whatever it takes,
Magatte Wade (3:17:55.780)
just stick around for one more second
Lex Fridman (3:17:57.980)
because the next second, you know.
Lex Fridman (3:18:00.500)
So I stuck around because of duty.
Lex Fridman (3:18:04.180)
I felt a very strong sense of duty.
Magatte Wade (3:18:06.300)
My duty was in this case, I think,
Lex Fridman (3:18:08.300)
stronger than my pain.
Magatte Wade (3:18:10.420)
I don't know how that was possible, but it was.
Lex Fridman (3:18:17.260)
And I just pushed my grief under the rug for years.
Magatte Wade (3:18:20.940)
For years, I worked like a mad lady.
Lex Fridman (3:18:23.940)
I would travel, I would do three states in three days,
Magatte Wade (3:18:28.020)
landing at two in the morning,
Lex Fridman (3:18:29.780)
around five or six going right along with our distributors
Magatte Wade (3:18:33.020)
because it was beverage and just keep going
Lex Fridman (3:18:35.460)
and have all of this energy and look like everything is fine.
Lex Fridman (3:18:38.380)
But what happened was just like,
Lex Fridman (3:18:39.700)
I was focused on the job to be done.
Lex Fridman (3:18:41.380)
And sometimes it is okay to do that.
Lex Fridman (3:18:43.700)
At least for me, it was my safety.
Magatte Wade (3:18:46.780)
You know, like when you're in the water
Lex Fridman (3:18:47.860)
and you're about to sink and they throw you that,
Magatte Wade (3:18:50.580)
that round thing, I don't know how you call it.
Lex Fridman (3:18:53.420)
You know, that, you know.
Lex Fridman (3:18:55.140)
I think that keeps you afloat, you mean?
Lex Fridman (3:18:56.140)
Yes, yes, the floater.
Magatte Wade (3:18:57.220)
It's the floater. Yeah, whatever.
Lex Fridman (3:18:58.460)
Listen, between the two of us, we're still terrible.
Magatte Wade (3:19:01.980)
We're bad.
Lex Fridman (3:19:02.820)
So I said, you, you, you.
Magatte Wade (3:19:04.940)
I know exactly what you mean.
Lex Fridman (3:19:06.260)
Exactly, right?
Lex Fridman (3:19:07.100)
So you understand me.
Lex Fridman (3:19:08.140)
So they send you that thing and you just,
Magatte Wade (3:19:10.540)
I was just hanging onto it.
Lex Fridman (3:19:12.540)
My life depended on this thing.
Lex Fridman (3:19:14.380)
So these women, they carried me.
Lex Fridman (3:19:17.460)
They carried me.
Lex Fridman (3:19:19.220)
And with time, things are moving forward.
Lex Fridman (3:19:23.500)
And at some point I went into really, really deep depression
Lex Fridman (3:19:26.820)
and I went into a very dark place,
Lex Fridman (3:19:29.580)
even darker than the one I think I came from.
Magatte Wade (3:19:31.780)
Because by that time I had worked for years
Lex Fridman (3:19:35.100)
on this company and now some other things was happening.
Lex Fridman (3:19:37.860)
And around that time, it's also when I was discovering
Lex Fridman (3:19:42.060)
a lot of what we talked about today,
Magatte Wade (3:19:45.060)
about what makes a country rich.
Lex Fridman (3:19:47.900)
And for me to understand that my network,
Magatte Wade (3:19:52.740)
I was very much into left oriented network.
Lex Fridman (3:19:56.180)
And to just start to see all of this,
Magatte Wade (3:20:02.580)
I tried to address it to realize that many of these people
Lex Fridman (3:20:05.660)
would prefer go running for the hills
Magatte Wade (3:20:08.060)
than accept for a moment that maybe capitalism
Lex Fridman (3:20:11.860)
might be part of a solution,
Magatte Wade (3:20:13.660)
when many of them were involved in capitalism.
Lex Fridman (3:20:17.300)
So that was a hard time.
Magatte Wade (3:20:21.500)
At some point I was, yeah,
Lex Fridman (3:20:23.940)
so many things were happening around that time
Magatte Wade (3:20:27.260)
that basically shook up everything for me.
Lex Fridman (3:20:32.980)
One, it's hard to talk about because it's very personal
Lex Fridman (3:20:34.980)
and the person that I was having a problem with
Lex Fridman (3:20:38.860)
passed away last year.
Lex Fridman (3:20:41.060)
And I'm one to always say, leave the dead alone.
Lex Fridman (3:20:45.220)
So because of that, I won't speak about it,
Lex Fridman (3:20:48.060)
but there to having a major fallout
Lex Fridman (3:20:50.460)
with somebody who was like a father figure for me,
Magatte Wade (3:20:52.900)
somebody that I completely trusted.
Lex Fridman (3:20:55.180)
And so at some point you just tell, ask yourself,
Lex Fridman (3:20:58.660)
was my whole life built on a lie, right?
Lex Fridman (3:21:04.340)
And then you're confused and then you become confused.
Lex Fridman (3:21:09.100)
And then at some point you lose 90% of your friends
Lex Fridman (3:21:12.580)
because of, ideologically speaking, it doesn't work anymore.
Magatte Wade (3:21:18.580)
Then you just wonder, have I,
Lex Fridman (3:21:22.100)
have I been asleep this whole time?
Lex Fridman (3:21:25.340)
And then you start to wonder,
Lex Fridman (3:21:26.260)
remember when you asked me, who am I?
Magatte Wade (3:21:28.020)
At some point, Lex, I literally was like a candle
Lex Fridman (3:21:31.300)
in the wind.
Magatte Wade (3:21:33.620)
I felt like I was a candle in the wind.
Lex Fridman (3:21:36.660)
And it was very hard to come back from that.
Lex Fridman (3:21:38.860)
And people have a hard,
Lex Fridman (3:21:41.980)
the few people I talk to about this,
Magatte Wade (3:21:43.820)
they have a hardest time understanding
Lex Fridman (3:21:45.460)
or even believing it because they're like, you?
Magatte Wade (3:21:48.100)
I'm like, yes, me.
Lex Fridman (3:21:49.940)
I used to be a candle in the wind.
Lex Fridman (3:21:52.260)
What got you out?
Lex Fridman (3:21:53.620)
What made you overcome that?
Magatte Wade (3:21:55.420)
My current husband.
Lex Fridman (3:21:57.420)
My current husband.
Lex Fridman (3:21:58.380)
Love?
Lex Fridman (3:21:59.220)
Love.
Magatte Wade (3:22:00.060)
See, when I tell you love is the answer.
Lex Fridman (3:22:01.940)
But him, he came with love,
Lex Fridman (3:22:04.300)
but he also came with really helping me
Lex Fridman (3:22:08.780)
figure out the world.
Lex Fridman (3:22:10.180)
So what Michael, because that's him,
Lex Fridman (3:22:11.860)
who we're talking about, Michael Strong.
Magatte Wade (3:22:15.140)
That must be special.
Lex Fridman (3:22:16.420)
He's so special.
Magatte Wade (3:22:17.660)
He's so special.
Lex Fridman (3:22:18.900)
So you have no idea how special he is.
Lex Fridman (3:22:21.420)
But you know, Michael, the reason why I have such love,
Lex Fridman (3:22:24.940)
respect and admiration for my husband,
Magatte Wade (3:22:26.860)
I'll never say it enough,
Lex Fridman (3:22:28.540)
is because actually it's one of those relationships
Magatte Wade (3:22:32.340)
that got built based on intellect first.
Lex Fridman (3:22:37.420)
You see, at some point I was in the position
Magatte Wade (3:22:41.300)
where I could start a foundation
Lex Fridman (3:22:44.500)
after having built my first business.
Lex Fridman (3:22:46.860)
And all I wanted was an ability to power
Lex Fridman (3:22:54.300)
as many, especially women,
Magatte Wade (3:22:56.980)
African women entrepreneurs like me a few years ago,
Lex Fridman (3:23:00.620)
before then, to do something like I was able to do.
Magatte Wade (3:23:04.540)
Bring back to the world
Lex Fridman (3:23:06.020)
some really cool aspects of our culture
Magatte Wade (3:23:08.260)
built into a really cool brand, 21st century type.
Lex Fridman (3:23:11.740)
That's what I wanted to do.
Magatte Wade (3:23:12.820)
Because the more I could promote women like that
Lex Fridman (3:23:15.620)
and put steam behind them,
Lex Fridman (3:23:17.460)
and the more my dream envisioned
Lex Fridman (3:23:19.700)
for a respected Africa, prosperous Africa would happen,
Magatte Wade (3:23:22.540)
back then that's what I wanted.
Lex Fridman (3:23:24.660)
And around me,
Magatte Wade (3:23:26.220)
this was also part of a whole crisis
Lex Fridman (3:23:28.980)
of ideologies I had back then.
Magatte Wade (3:23:32.020)
Everybody was like, well, we should be just doing grants.
Lex Fridman (3:23:37.580)
And I knew that my people didn't need grants.
Magatte Wade (3:23:40.660)
They didn't need like a handout.
Lex Fridman (3:23:42.260)
They don't want your charity.
Magatte Wade (3:23:45.260)
I didn't want charity.
Lex Fridman (3:23:46.900)
I wanted someone who could work with me on my accounting.
Magatte Wade (3:23:50.260)
I wanted somebody who could help me brainstorm
Lex Fridman (3:23:53.780)
marketing wise.
Magatte Wade (3:23:55.060)
I wanted somebody, or I needed to raise money
Lex Fridman (3:23:58.620)
to pay my research and development guy
Magatte Wade (3:24:02.580)
to help me take the juices from my grandma's recipe
Lex Fridman (3:24:07.100)
to something that can be shelf stable.
Magatte Wade (3:24:10.420)
I needed coaching.
Lex Fridman (3:24:14.460)
These are all the things that I needed
Magatte Wade (3:24:16.740)
to make my dream happen.
Lex Fridman (3:24:18.100)
I didn't want you to give me some crap for free.
Magatte Wade (3:24:20.220)
That's not what I want.
Lex Fridman (3:24:21.180)
I just want to be able to build my business
Magatte Wade (3:24:24.060)
with all the things that business building needs.
Lex Fridman (3:24:26.540)
And so that's what I wanted to do
Lex Fridman (3:24:29.740)
and it's what it was needed.
Lex Fridman (3:24:31.340)
And so Michael, somebody found out about what I was doing
Magatte Wade (3:24:35.700)
because back in the days of San Francisco,
Lex Fridman (3:24:37.100)
they would write a lot about me and everything.
Lex Fridman (3:24:38.740)
And so Michael, along with John Mackey,
Lex Fridman (3:24:43.100)
the founder of Whole Foods Market,
Magatte Wade (3:24:44.380)
they had a nonprofit called Flow.
Lex Fridman (3:24:47.500)
And it's all about human flourishing.
Magatte Wade (3:24:49.380)
They want for people, everybody to get this choice,
Lex Fridman (3:24:52.140)
this ability to be able to get to a point in their life
Magatte Wade (3:24:54.580)
where they're in complete flow.
Lex Fridman (3:24:56.340)
It's, Michael, just make high.
Magatte Wade (3:24:58.540)
Michael is the only one who could say that last name.
Lex Fridman (3:25:00.340)
But you know, the whole concept of flow,
Magatte Wade (3:25:01.860)
when you're in a state of flow,
Lex Fridman (3:25:02.980)
you're basically doing what you're supposed to do,
Magatte Wade (3:25:05.900)
the way you're supposed to do it
Lex Fridman (3:25:06.900)
with the people you're supposed to, this whole concept of flow.
Magatte Wade (3:25:09.820)
It's human flourishing at its highest.
Lex Fridman (3:25:12.340)
So, you know, so I meet with this man.
Magatte Wade (3:25:15.380)
Max, you're so, okay, so we, he finds me, his people find me.
Lex Fridman (3:25:21.060)
And then there was a program
Magatte Wade (3:25:22.700)
where it was all about accelerating women entrepreneurs.
Lex Fridman (3:25:25.860)
So it's during this times
Magatte Wade (3:25:27.620)
that I'm starting now to see things.
Lex Fridman (3:25:29.940)
That's when actually all of this stuff that I noticed,
Lex Fridman (3:25:33.020)
how come here it takes me all of this time
Lex Fridman (3:25:35.300)
to start my business, over there it's 20 minutes,
Magatte Wade (3:25:37.020)
here it's free, over there it's thousands of dollars,
Lex Fridman (3:25:39.020)
all of this nonsense that I just took,
Magatte Wade (3:25:40.580)
oh, maybe it's just because we're messed up,
Lex Fridman (3:25:41.900)
we're poor, that's why everything is so messed up.
Magatte Wade (3:25:44.860)
Whoa, these people are introducing me to concepts.
Lex Fridman (3:25:47.460)
I'm like, first of all, I'm like, oh, really?
Lex Fridman (3:25:50.860)
What did you call the doing business in the, what is that?
Lex Fridman (3:25:56.380)
You know, all of this stuff.
Lex Fridman (3:25:58.340)
And I'm starting to discover this whole other body of work.
Lex Fridman (3:26:02.500)
That the free markets, like this thing that I was sensing,
Magatte Wade (3:26:06.900)
this environment that I was sensing
Lex Fridman (3:26:08.260)
that it was different around me.
Lex Fridman (3:26:10.980)
And that they called it the free markets over here.
Lex Fridman (3:26:13.860)
And over there, that.
Lex Fridman (3:26:15.660)
And then I started to butt head those ideas
Lex Fridman (3:26:18.460)
with the ideas that I was fed with before that.
Lex Fridman (3:26:21.740)
And the evidence won.
Lex Fridman (3:26:23.820)
And further more than the evidence,
Magatte Wade (3:26:25.660)
the evidence combined with my lived experience,
Lex Fridman (3:26:29.300)
it was so powerful.
Lex Fridman (3:26:30.700)
So I basically started understanding these ideas
Lex Fridman (3:26:34.060)
from the most visceral part of my body,
Magatte Wade (3:26:36.460)
you know, of my being.
Lex Fridman (3:26:38.860)
And it makes sense.
Lex Fridman (3:26:41.060)
So Michael, Michael helped me find the solution,
Lex Fridman (3:26:45.420)
the answer to my lifelong little girl's question
Lex Fridman (3:26:49.900)
of why do they have this and we don't?
Lex Fridman (3:26:52.260)
And how do some countries like mine be poor
Lex Fridman (3:26:55.540)
while others are rich?
Lex Fridman (3:26:57.540)
And with understanding all of that,
Magatte Wade (3:27:02.460)
the greatest, biggest sense of liberation came upon me.
Lex Fridman (3:27:09.220)
Like, I have no other word to describe that.
Magatte Wade (3:27:13.780)
True liberation, the liberation that comes from a peer
Lex Fridman (3:27:16.820)
to finally understand and be vindicated
Magatte Wade (3:27:21.900)
in your own, you know,
Lex Fridman (3:27:25.260)
understand in your own deep knowing
Magatte Wade (3:27:29.100)
or feeling that they're not,
Lex Fridman (3:27:32.460)
what they're saying is not true.
Magatte Wade (3:27:33.660)
You're not the problem.
Lex Fridman (3:27:35.100)
It's not you.
Magatte Wade (3:27:36.620)
There's something else.
Lex Fridman (3:27:38.620)
And when I discovered that, my whole life changed.
Magatte Wade (3:27:41.260)
So, and since then I have been very serious
Lex Fridman (3:27:44.740)
about going deeper and deeper and deeper
Magatte Wade (3:27:46.620)
into my understanding of all of this,
Lex Fridman (3:27:49.780)
understanding the subtlety.
Magatte Wade (3:27:52.020)
At some point I was very angry
Lex Fridman (3:27:53.860)
about the liberators of Africa,
Magatte Wade (3:27:55.700)
because I was like, yes, you helped liberate us,
Lex Fridman (3:27:58.380)
but just to keep us in this mirrorism,
Magatte Wade (3:28:01.180)
I was angry for longest time.
Lex Fridman (3:28:03.300)
And then eventually you have to engage empathy and love
Magatte Wade (3:28:08.660)
to put yourself in their shoes
Lex Fridman (3:28:10.140)
and try to understand the time at which they were living.
Lex Fridman (3:28:13.260)
And that got me onto a journey
Lex Fridman (3:28:14.500)
of trying to understand history more.
Magatte Wade (3:28:17.100)
That's how I understood I was able to go beyond
Lex Fridman (3:28:19.340)
just these liberators and try to understand
Lex Fridman (3:28:21.980)
and rebuild the world around them
Lex Fridman (3:28:23.580)
at the macro and also at the macro level.
Magatte Wade (3:28:29.140)
Just really, you have to try to walk in their shoes.
Lex Fridman (3:28:33.060)
And from there, finally separate the baby with the bathwater
Magatte Wade (3:28:36.780)
that they were not able to do back then.
Lex Fridman (3:28:38.660)
That's why today, I'm sorry,
Lex Fridman (3:28:40.660)
but I have no patience for the BLM organizers, founders,
Lex Fridman (3:28:44.740)
especially the founders.
Magatte Wade (3:28:45.580)
I don't know what the organizers think,
Lex Fridman (3:28:46.420)
but the founders told us what they stand for.
Lex Fridman (3:28:48.780)
And I say, guys, don't make that same mistake again.
Lex Fridman (3:28:51.820)
If you're serious about this,
Magatte Wade (3:28:53.060)
you cannot make the same mistake.
Lex Fridman (3:28:56.300)
The liberals of Africa, they have an excuse.
Magatte Wade (3:29:00.260)
We didn't know better.
Lex Fridman (3:29:01.100)
It was so easy back then to conflate everything.
Lex Fridman (3:29:04.940)
But today, you, me, anybody alive
Lex Fridman (3:29:08.340)
cannot with a straight face
Magatte Wade (3:29:10.500)
embrace Marxist socialist ideas,
Lex Fridman (3:29:12.460)
especially, especially when they're claiming
Magatte Wade (3:29:16.420)
that they wanted people to thrive.
Lex Fridman (3:29:20.340)
No, you can't, I'm sorry.
Lex Fridman (3:29:22.460)
And I will hold your feet up to the fire on that one.
Lex Fridman (3:29:26.060)
I will, I will.
Lex Fridman (3:29:27.020)
And that's what I'm doing.
Lex Fridman (3:29:28.060)
They will give me a lot of grief for this,
Lex Fridman (3:29:29.180)
but guess what?
Lex Fridman (3:29:30.020)
I could care less.
Lex Fridman (3:29:30.860)
Do you know why I could care less?
Lex Fridman (3:29:32.460)
Because we have an entire population
Magatte Wade (3:29:35.620)
to help rise out of poverty into prosperity,
Lex Fridman (3:29:40.380)
where they become co creators,
Magatte Wade (3:29:44.500)
global co creators of innovation.
Lex Fridman (3:29:47.300)
And those ideas give you hope for the place you love,
Magatte Wade (3:29:52.380)
for Senegal, for Africa.
Lex Fridman (3:29:54.260)
They do.
Magatte Wade (3:29:55.260)
They do.
Lex Fridman (3:29:56.100)
The world I live in,
Magatte Wade (3:29:59.140)
the new centers of culture and fashion are in Dakar.
Lex Fridman (3:30:03.020)
The new centers of tech and, you know,
Magatte Wade (3:30:10.060)
crypto even is somewhere, maybe Nigeria.
Lex Fridman (3:30:13.540)
So you see that future, you see that future clearly.
Magatte Wade (3:30:16.380)
I do, I do, I do.
Lex Fridman (3:30:18.900)
It's a beautiful thing.
Lex Fridman (3:30:20.060)
And it's also beautiful to see that the space
Lex Fridman (3:30:22.500)
of these really powerful ideas
Magatte Wade (3:30:24.900)
is where you also found love.
Lex Fridman (3:30:26.700)
Right?
Lex Fridman (3:30:27.540)
So at the intersection.
Lex Fridman (3:30:28.780)
At the intersection, Michael and I would spend hours
Magatte Wade (3:30:31.820)
talking about all of these ideas.
Lex Fridman (3:30:33.100)
And I would be like, but what about this?
Magatte Wade (3:30:34.660)
No, it doesn't make any sense.
Lex Fridman (3:30:35.980)
No, no, no, oh no.
Lex Fridman (3:30:37.180)
And then hours, every single day for months, Lex.
Lex Fridman (3:30:41.500)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:30:42.420)
And then from there, our love was born.
Lex Fridman (3:30:44.980)
Cause I tell people for us,
Magatte Wade (3:30:47.260)
love is not about looking at each other in the eyes,
Lex Fridman (3:30:49.060)
like, you know, they all think,
Lex Fridman (3:30:50.460)
but it's about, we look in one direction.
Lex Fridman (3:30:52.460)
And in this case, it's this vision,
Lex Fridman (3:30:53.900)
what we know to be possible and true.
Lex Fridman (3:30:55.860)
If only you liberate people.
Lex Fridman (3:30:59.580)
What we know to be true and possible.
Lex Fridman (3:31:01.860)
We, all of us are miracles walking around.
Magatte Wade (3:31:04.820)
Every time I get on a plane,
Lex Fridman (3:31:06.180)
it's a miracle of engineering.
Magatte Wade (3:31:09.620)
All the things we're able to do, you know,
Lex Fridman (3:31:11.100)
now when they do operation on your teeth,
Lex Fridman (3:31:13.340)
how they're able to put the pain down away.
Lex Fridman (3:31:16.660)
All of this is us.
Magatte Wade (3:31:17.980)
You're working on these robots.
Lex Fridman (3:31:20.380)
This, this, this inside here.
Magatte Wade (3:31:22.860)
Humans are amazing.
Lex Fridman (3:31:23.860)
I know.
Lex Fridman (3:31:24.780)
So that's why, and when it works in great tandem
Lex Fridman (3:31:27.220)
with this guy, these two working together.
Magatte Wade (3:31:30.380)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (3:31:31.220)
Ooh.
Magatte Wade (3:31:32.060)
Watch out.
Lex Fridman (3:31:32.900)
There's nothing we can't accomplish.
Magatte Wade (3:31:33.740)
Nothing, nothing.
Lex Fridman (3:31:35.180)
Well, God, you're one of the most incredible people
Magatte Wade (3:31:37.740)
I've ever talked to.
Lex Fridman (3:31:38.580)
Oh, you say that.
Magatte Wade (3:31:39.740)
You're amazing.
Lex Fridman (3:31:40.580)
You've met everybody.
Magatte Wade (3:31:41.420)
Thank you so much.
Lex Fridman (3:31:42.240)
This is truly an honor.
Magatte Wade (3:31:43.500)
Thank you for everything you're doing.
Lex Fridman (3:31:44.580)
Thank you for the fire that burns within you.
Lex Fridman (3:31:46.820)
And there's just the passion you have
Lex Fridman (3:31:48.500)
for a place that's going to, I think,
Magatte Wade (3:31:50.580)
define the future of humanity.
Lex Fridman (3:31:52.020)
So thank you for everything you're doing.
Magatte Wade (3:31:53.300)
Thank you for talking to me.
Lex Fridman (3:31:54.140)
Thank you.
Magatte Wade (3:31:54.980)
Thank you to you.
Lex Fridman (3:31:55.800)
And sometimes I hope this fire doesn't consume me.
Magatte Wade (3:31:57.740)
That's how much it is.
Lex Fridman (3:31:59.260)
But I am grateful to you for this.
Lex Fridman (3:32:02.340)
And yeah, thank you for,
Lex Fridman (3:32:04.640)
I know you don't do a lot of these, you know,
Magatte Wade (3:32:06.620)
I am, it's this type of interviews.
Lex Fridman (3:32:09.060)
Maybe I don't know, but I'm so, so happy.
Magatte Wade (3:32:11.660)
You mean fun, inspiring, powerful interviews.
Lex Fridman (3:32:14.980)
Yes, I need to do more of that.
Magatte Wade (3:32:16.420)
You're amazing.
Lex Fridman (3:32:17.260)
I don't know, because at first I was like,
Lex Fridman (3:32:18.620)
Lex Friedman, really?
Lex Fridman (3:32:20.100)
Yeah, really?
Lex Fridman (3:32:20.940)
How's this going to go?
Lex Fridman (3:32:21.780)
I'm like, yeah, I'm going to talk to Lex
Lex Fridman (3:32:23.700)
and go all crazy.
Lex Fridman (3:32:24.540)
I think you need to work on your unconscious bias.
Magatte Wade (3:32:27.700)
Right.
Lex Fridman (3:32:29.920)
All right, thank you, Magat.
Magatte Wade (3:32:30.760)
You're the best.
Lex Fridman (3:32:31.580)
Thank you.
Magatte Wade (3:32:32.420)
Thank you.
Lex Fridman (3:32:33.260)
Thank you so much.
Magatte Wade (3:32:34.560)
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Magat Wade.
Lex Fridman (3:32:37.540)
To support this podcast,
Magatte Wade (3:32:38.780)
please check out our sponsors in the description.
Lex Fridman (3:32:41.380)
And now, let me leave you with some words
Magatte Wade (3:32:43.580)
from Nelson Mandela.
Lex Fridman (3:32:46.000)
Money won't create success.
Magatte Wade (3:32:48.460)
The freedom to make it will.
Lex Fridman (3:32:51.060)
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
Lex Fridman (40:00.960)
But then even about the place, you're thinking,
Lex Fridman (40:05.200)
again, two countries, different backgrounds, same outcome,
Magatte Wade (40:07.920)
same background, different outcome.
Lex Fridman (40:10.800)
What is this?
Lex Fridman (40:11.960)
And then I go on.
Lex Fridman (40:13.880)
I start, I am in Silicon Valley
Magatte Wade (40:17.520)
in the late 90s, early 2000s,
Lex Fridman (40:21.720)
that come boom, all of that.
Lex Fridman (40:23.720)
And I'm starting to discover this concept
Lex Fridman (40:26.600)
of this thing called entrepreneurship.
Magatte Wade (40:28.680)
You know, I'm in Silicon Valley
Lex Fridman (40:30.200)
and just getting to experience what seems so cliche by now,
Lex Fridman (40:34.720)
but you know, people getting together
Lex Fridman (40:37.000)
in the back of a napkin, talking about an idea,
Magatte Wade (40:39.600)
putting it out, and then they go out
Lex Fridman (40:40.960)
and they talk to some of these investors
Magatte Wade (40:43.040)
who's gonna invest in it.
Lex Fridman (40:44.080)
Then they have the lawyers
Magatte Wade (40:45.040)
who get to put all of this stuff together.
Lex Fridman (40:47.320)
And then they have the big four CPA firms,
Magatte Wade (40:49.760)
this whole ecosystem of what they call entrepreneurship.
Lex Fridman (40:52.960)
And then eventually this concept of entrepreneurship
Magatte Wade (40:54.920)
being this idea of creating something out of nothing.
Lex Fridman (40:59.320)
So there I am.
Lex Fridman (41:00.760)
And at some point I become an entrepreneur myself.
Lex Fridman (41:03.040)
And the way I became an entrepreneur was not like,
Magatte Wade (41:04.680)
I woke up and I'm like,
Lex Fridman (41:06.440)
I wanna make money, so I'm gonna become an entrepreneur.
Magatte Wade (41:09.200)
No, and this is also another problem I have with people
Lex Fridman (41:12.080)
who have a problem with entrepreneurs or business people.
Magatte Wade (41:15.120)
Most entrepreneurs do not start a business to become rich.
Lex Fridman (41:19.840)
Most entrepreneurs start a business
Magatte Wade (41:22.640)
because they have found, identified a problem
Lex Fridman (41:25.040)
that bothered them enough,
Magatte Wade (41:26.720)
that they said, enough is enough.
Lex Fridman (41:28.920)
I'm gonna do something about it.
Lex Fridman (41:30.480)
What entrepreneurs are are people who criticize by creating.
Lex Fridman (41:34.600)
Do they always get it right?
Magatte Wade (41:35.880)
No, as a matter of fact,
Lex Fridman (41:37.400)
the failure in entrepreneurship is humongous.
Magatte Wade (41:40.440)
It's kamikaze path to take the entrepreneurship path.
Lex Fridman (41:45.520)
We lose our spouses.
Magatte Wade (41:46.920)
My first husband passed away
Lex Fridman (41:48.760)
as soon as I was about to sign my first term sheet.
Lex Fridman (41:51.960)
And yet I had to keep going.
Lex Fridman (41:54.640)
What force can keep you going
Lex Fridman (41:57.400)
after you just lost the love of your life?
Lex Fridman (41:59.920)
What force keeps you going?
Lex Fridman (42:01.680)
The force of, oh, I just wanna be rich, really?
Lex Fridman (42:04.640)
When your whole world is upside down,
Magatte Wade (42:08.560)
your whole world is upside down and you just want to quit.
Lex Fridman (42:12.280)
You just want to go meet him and join him in death.
Lex Fridman (42:16.320)
I stayed, why?
Lex Fridman (42:17.400)
Because of the same reason why I started my company.
Magatte Wade (42:20.720)
I stayed because of the women
Lex Fridman (42:22.920)
whom I had put back to work by then.
Magatte Wade (42:25.800)
We're talking about some of the most vulnerable women
Lex Fridman (42:27.680)
in my country.
Magatte Wade (42:28.960)
These are women who grow the hibiscus,
Lex Fridman (42:31.200)
which we need to make the bisap,
Lex Fridman (42:33.120)
which is the juice of taranga, remember?
Lex Fridman (42:35.240)
This is our national identity drink.
Lex Fridman (42:37.840)
And for the longest time, women grow this hibiscus
Lex Fridman (42:40.200)
that we use for the national drink, for this drink.
Lex Fridman (42:43.160)
And now that Coca Cola, Pepsi, and all that
Lex Fridman (42:45.400)
had made it through the marketing
Magatte Wade (42:46.880)
that it is more cool to drink those beverages,
Lex Fridman (42:49.560)
now there is no more market for the hibiscus.
Lex Fridman (42:52.240)
And with that goes the livelihoods of these women.
Lex Fridman (42:56.000)
And for me, that bothered me enough
Magatte Wade (42:58.480)
because in that force, I saw two things.
Lex Fridman (43:00.760)
One was a part of my culture.
Magatte Wade (43:03.680)
We're talking about, I mean,
Lex Fridman (43:06.080)
part of my cultural identity, for Christ's sake,
Magatte Wade (43:10.120)
the juice of taranga.
Lex Fridman (43:11.280)
You asked me, what defines you?
Magatte Wade (43:12.560)
I said, taranga, there's a juice for it.
Lex Fridman (43:14.880)
So my culture is disappearing.
Lex Fridman (43:16.760)
And at the same time, these women
Lex Fridman (43:20.680)
are sliding into abject poverty
Magatte Wade (43:22.880)
because what they used to make no one needs anymore.
Lex Fridman (43:25.880)
So that is what got me to start a company.
Lex Fridman (43:31.040)
And the company was created just because of that.
Lex Fridman (43:34.000)
I wanted to build a company that would allow me
Magatte Wade (43:38.640)
to not only preserve this very important aspect
Lex Fridman (43:42.600)
of my cultural identity,
Lex Fridman (43:44.160)
and at the same time, put these women back to work.
Lex Fridman (43:48.440)
And maybe it's more difficult to put into words,
Lex Fridman (43:51.440)
but there's a kind of, it's a basic human spirit
Lex Fridman (43:55.840)
where you see the place where you came from
Magatte Wade (44:00.480)
breaking apart in some kind of way,
Lex Fridman (44:03.120)
and you have the entrepreneurial fire
Magatte Wade (44:06.480)
that dreams of helping.
Lex Fridman (44:08.640)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (44:09.480)
And that, sometimes it's hard to convert that into words.
Lex Fridman (44:13.480)
You have to tell nice stories and so on,
Lex Fridman (44:15.120)
but it's the basic human desire to help.
Lex Fridman (44:17.360)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (44:18.200)
And like I said, criticized by creating.
Lex Fridman (44:21.320)
Especially when you've been,
Magatte Wade (44:22.920)
especially when, and let's face it,
Lex Fridman (44:26.560)
do we all, are we all a bundle of circumstances,
Lex Fridman (44:29.760)
some happy, some worse?
Lex Fridman (44:31.480)
Yes, we are.
Lex Fridman (44:32.640)
And oftentimes I ask myself, my God, why you?
Lex Fridman (44:37.120)
Why did you get to have the opportunities that you have?
Lex Fridman (44:42.120)
What makes you different from, let's say,
Lex Fridman (44:44.200)
even your cousin that couldn't, that is still home, trapped?
Magatte Wade (44:49.200)
Because we call ourselves trapped citizens.
Lex Fridman (44:51.640)
When you're trapped in these countries that go nowhere,
Magatte Wade (44:54.520)
we're like a bunch of trapped citizens.
Lex Fridman (44:57.240)
So you see, Lex, when my husband passed away
Lex Fridman (45:02.440)
and I wanted nothing more to do than to quit
Lex Fridman (45:04.840)
and to send, investors had already said,
Magatte Wade (45:07.440)
we understand if you want to stop.
Lex Fridman (45:09.200)
Whatever you decide to do, we'll do that.
Lex Fridman (45:11.440)
And I wanted to quit and I was actually on my way.
Lex Fridman (45:15.360)
I was in Senegal for a month,
Magatte Wade (45:17.920)
trying to really get a bearing over myself.
Lex Fridman (45:20.520)
And by the end of the month, I had decided I'm letting go.
Magatte Wade (45:25.720)
There's no way.
Lex Fridman (45:26.560)
The pain was too great, nothing made sense anymore.
Magatte Wade (45:30.200)
It was too much.
Lex Fridman (45:31.760)
So I went to see this woman and I talked to the one who,
Magatte Wade (45:36.920)
you know, we're talking back then,
Lex Fridman (45:39.160)
there were 400 of them, later on we grew to 9,000.
Lex Fridman (45:43.520)
And I told the representative of all of them,
Lex Fridman (45:47.800)
and I told her, this is very, this is her old lady.
Lex Fridman (45:51.160)
And just looking at her,
Lex Fridman (45:53.320)
I knew I was going through some pain,
Lex Fridman (45:54.920)
but this woman has probably gone through 10 times,
Lex Fridman (45:57.600)
not that pain is, you know, like measurable,
Lex Fridman (46:00.320)
but you could tell this woman probably lost a child
Lex Fridman (46:02.880)
as oftentimes happen in places, you know,
Magatte Wade (46:05.240)
that are lower income countries.
Lex Fridman (46:07.880)
Probably lost a husband also, probably who knows,
Lex Fridman (46:11.600)
so many people, loss is part of our lives.
Lex Fridman (46:13.560)
You can see the pain.
Magatte Wade (46:14.400)
You can see the pain, yet she's so, so dignified.
Lex Fridman (46:18.080)
She's so dignified.
Lex Fridman (46:19.840)
And that already kind of made me like,
Lex Fridman (46:22.120)
my God, stop crying.
Magatte Wade (46:23.520)
But, and I told her that I was quitting.
Lex Fridman (46:28.080)
I could not look her in the eyes.
Lex Fridman (46:29.560)
And she said, look at me.
Lex Fridman (46:33.720)
I could not look her in the eyes.
Magatte Wade (46:34.880)
She said, look at me, child.
Lex Fridman (46:36.280)
And I looked at her and she said,
Magatte Wade (46:41.560)
you know, I know you're in pain,
Lex Fridman (46:44.840)
but where your husband is, where your beloved is,
Magatte Wade (46:48.240)
is absolutely nothing that you can do for him.
Lex Fridman (46:51.200)
But for us, you can change everything.
Lex Fridman (46:54.080)
And I went back.
Lex Fridman (46:55.800)
So that's what entrepreneurs are at their best.
Lex Fridman (47:01.320)
Did she help you find your strength?
Lex Fridman (47:03.200)
Yes, and I was weak still,
Lex Fridman (47:08.280)
but I said, you put that aside.
Lex Fridman (47:11.040)
There's a job to do here.
Lex Fridman (47:13.240)
And I went back and I fought with everything that I had.
Lex Fridman (47:16.920)
And this company that I started in my kitchen
Magatte Wade (47:20.480)
became this company that had the who's who
Lex Fridman (47:22.520)
of the beverage world,
Magatte Wade (47:24.800)
with at some point, Roger Enrico, the chairman of PepsiCo
Lex Fridman (47:27.680)
sitting on my board.
Lex Fridman (47:30.360)
And yeah, I went back because of that.
Lex Fridman (47:34.400)
So the reason why I tell this story for me is important
Magatte Wade (47:37.680)
because the world needs to understand
Lex Fridman (47:43.120)
that there is a viable way of caring
Lex Fridman (47:50.040)
and of being part of a solution
Lex Fridman (47:54.560)
for the lesser fortunate
Magatte Wade (47:57.320)
in terms of not keeping them where they are
Lex Fridman (48:00.480)
and we're like the saviors coming
Lex Fridman (48:02.240)
and giving them food and all that.
Lex Fridman (48:03.880)
No, no, no, no, no.
Lex Fridman (48:05.000)
But it's just like the leg up I got in my life.
Lex Fridman (48:07.760)
Give somebody else a leg up.
Lex Fridman (48:10.640)
What are the things you're fighting against in Africa
Lex Fridman (48:14.000)
when you try to build a business like that?
Lex Fridman (48:17.360)
So then we're building this company.
Lex Fridman (48:20.200)
And back then, this was in 2004
Magatte Wade (48:24.760)
that was when I built my first company.
Lex Fridman (48:28.720)
We had to have two sister companies, one there, one here.
Lex Fridman (48:32.280)
So the one in Africa was about the whole supply chain.
Lex Fridman (48:36.920)
And the one in America was research and development,
Magatte Wade (48:42.320)
sales and marketing, all of that good stuff.
Lex Fridman (48:45.680)
And then at some point I look around,
Magatte Wade (48:48.440)
I'm like, wait a second.
Lex Fridman (48:50.120)
Here, back in the days before we had the,
Magatte Wade (48:52.680)
they would talk, they would say, oh, we have this one stop shop
Lex Fridman (48:55.080)
for business registration.
Lex Fridman (48:56.440)
But the truth is very quickly
Lex Fridman (49:00.120)
you can set up an LLC in the US.
Magatte Wade (49:01.760)
We're talking about less than, even then less than,
Lex Fridman (49:05.000)
today it's super fast, 20 minutes online, done.
Magatte Wade (49:07.840)
Back then it was less than few hours to get it done,
Lex Fridman (49:13.600)
cost you almost nothing.
Magatte Wade (49:14.680)
We're talking about a few hundred dollars,
Lex Fridman (49:16.560)
three, two to 350 depending which state you are.
Lex Fridman (49:19.360)
So LLC, starting a basic company takes almost no time.
Lex Fridman (49:23.800)
No time, no time, no money, almost.
Magatte Wade (49:25.680)
You don't have to know a guy that knows a guy
Lex Fridman (49:29.120)
that slipped some money to the politician and so on.
Magatte Wade (49:33.240)
No, none of that stuff, none of that stuff.
Lex Fridman (49:35.560)
And so at the same time, also things like,
Lex Fridman (49:39.960)
and this I can take you even to today's day.
Lex Fridman (49:42.600)
Okay, Lex, I don't know if you have employees
Magatte Wade (49:44.760)
on payroll or anything like that,
Lex Fridman (49:46.600)
but do you have to go every month
Magatte Wade (49:50.560)
or anybody listening to us right now,
Lex Fridman (49:52.760)
do they have to go every single month
Magatte Wade (49:56.840)
to three different type of agencies,
Lex Fridman (50:02.040)
like governmental agencies to do one step?
Magatte Wade (50:07.440)
This one is basically you're gonna go
Lex Fridman (50:10.160)
and give them your retirement money,
Magatte Wade (50:14.000)
like the pension part of the salary
Lex Fridman (50:16.240)
that you took out from your employee.
Magatte Wade (50:18.400)
You have to go to this agency
Lex Fridman (50:20.080)
and put that application through.
Lex Fridman (50:22.040)
So you leave that money behind,
Lex Fridman (50:23.840)
then you go to another agency.
Magatte Wade (50:25.360)
This one is for the health, care, whatever.
Lex Fridman (50:28.360)
You have three of those places
Magatte Wade (50:30.000)
where you have to literally go to in person,
Lex Fridman (50:33.560)
three times, three places every single month
Magatte Wade (50:37.680)
to drop off these paperwork.
Lex Fridman (50:41.320)
Do you have to do that anywhere in the US?
Magatte Wade (50:42.600)
I mean, do we have that situation
Lex Fridman (50:45.080)
anywhere that you know of right now?
Magatte Wade (50:47.120)
No, no.
Lex Fridman (50:48.200)
And do you think that's a business friendly
Lex Fridman (50:50.120)
or do you think it's cumbersome in business?
Lex Fridman (50:52.160)
And that's not just cumbersome sort of physically,
Magatte Wade (50:55.160)
it's cumbersome psychologically,
Lex Fridman (50:57.320)
that there's a feeling like the system around you,
Magatte Wade (51:01.880)
yeah, there's a feeling like you're trapped.
Lex Fridman (51:03.760)
It's a feeling like the system doesn't want you to succeed
Magatte Wade (51:07.200)
versus a system that does want you to succeed.
Lex Fridman (51:09.520)
Exactly.
Magatte Wade (51:10.840)
You're in a country like we're in Texas.
Lex Fridman (51:13.880)
If you make less than a million bucks in revenues a year,
Magatte Wade (51:18.040)
all you do, five minutes it takes you,
Lex Fridman (51:19.800)
you're filing your franchise tax, that's it.
Magatte Wade (51:27.080)
It's below that number, tell them what it is,
Lex Fridman (51:29.280)
then you have nothing to give them
Magatte Wade (51:30.720)
or anything like that, you move on.
Lex Fridman (51:33.160)
Us, even if I make this much,
Magatte Wade (51:38.040)
there is a minimum tax that you have to pay,
Lex Fridman (51:40.120)
which is $1,000 in Senegal right now.
Magatte Wade (51:42.560)
For the listener, my guy was holding up a zero.
Lex Fridman (51:47.560)
You make no money.
Magatte Wade (51:49.040)
You still have to pay.
Lex Fridman (51:49.880)
You still have to pay.
Lex Fridman (51:52.720)
And then, oh, let me walk you through what happened to me
Lex Fridman (51:55.560)
when we had to try to get the electricity hooked up
Magatte Wade (51:59.120)
on our first office.
Lex Fridman (52:00.800)
So we go, they say, oh, first you have to apply,
Magatte Wade (52:03.320)
you know, like you normally you have to apply.
Lex Fridman (52:05.800)
Then we apply, we pay the money.
Magatte Wade (52:08.280)
Remember again, here you have to also go,
Lex Fridman (52:10.040)
this was like, you know, you go to the office and you pay.
Lex Fridman (52:13.320)
And then we wait, and we wait, and we wait.
Lex Fridman (52:16.520)
And when I say we wait, I'm not talking about
Magatte Wade (52:17.840)
we waited 24 hours, we waited 48 hours.
Lex Fridman (52:20.400)
A month, two months, three months, four months,
Magatte Wade (52:24.200)
five months, you go, you send your assistant,
Lex Fridman (52:26.960)
she goes, she comes back.
Magatte Wade (52:28.760)
Well, they say we send it to wait.
Lex Fridman (52:30.160)
At some point I'm like, I gotta go there.
Lex Fridman (52:31.800)
So I go there and I asked to speak
Lex Fridman (52:34.520)
to the head of the district for, you know,
Lex Fridman (52:38.240)
and I'm just like going on and on and on and on
Lex Fridman (52:41.920)
about how we've been delayed.
Magatte Wade (52:43.240)
This is gonna be a problem.
Lex Fridman (52:44.280)
We have to produce, everything is delayed.
Lex Fridman (52:46.560)
And I risk losing my business.
Lex Fridman (52:49.080)
We already presold some of these products to our customers.
Magatte Wade (52:53.000)
I gotta, something needs to happen.
Lex Fridman (52:55.880)
So at some point the gentleman looks at me,
Magatte Wade (52:58.000)
he's like, lady, look over there.
Lex Fridman (52:59.520)
I look over there, I see a pile of paper this high.
Magatte Wade (53:03.880)
We're talking about maybe hundreds of applications.
Lex Fridman (53:07.240)
Each one of them is a single sheet.
Magatte Wade (53:10.240)
Each single sheet is an application
Lex Fridman (53:12.280)
for getting the electricity.
Lex Fridman (53:15.600)
And he says, do you see that?
Lex Fridman (53:16.920)
I said, yeah.
Lex Fridman (53:17.760)
And he said, look over there.
Lex Fridman (53:18.720)
I look over there to the other side.
Magatte Wade (53:20.680)
I see two meters.
Lex Fridman (53:22.400)
He's like, each of these applications needs one of those.
Lex Fridman (53:26.280)
How many do you see?
Lex Fridman (53:27.120)
I said, two.
Magatte Wade (53:28.160)
Then I knew I was in trouble.
Lex Fridman (53:31.320)
And then I said, what do I do?
Lex Fridman (53:33.680)
And he said, lady, it's not at our level.
Lex Fridman (53:37.480)
And I agreed with him.
Magatte Wade (53:38.480)
It was not on his level.
Lex Fridman (53:40.040)
But eventually, by now you can tell
Magatte Wade (53:41.880)
that I pretty much get what I need because,
Lex Fridman (53:44.120)
and at that point what I did was not threaten him
Magatte Wade (53:46.000)
or anything like that.
Lex Fridman (53:46.840)
I didn't even pay a bribe or anything,
Lex Fridman (53:47.840)
but you could see why people pay bribes.
Lex Fridman (53:50.160)
Because when you have a pile like that,
Magatte Wade (53:52.080)
then the only way to advance your file,
Lex Fridman (53:53.960)
and that by the way happens even at the passport office.
Magatte Wade (53:56.920)
You come, you apply for your passport, which is your right.
Lex Fridman (54:00.720)
They forced us to have passports.
Magatte Wade (54:02.000)
It's your right as a citizen to have a passport.
Lex Fridman (54:03.880)
And even there, if you want yours
Magatte Wade (54:06.280)
to keep going through the process,
Lex Fridman (54:07.480)
you have to bribe somebody so it can go
Magatte Wade (54:09.120)
even the pace it's supposed to go, let alone faster.
Lex Fridman (54:11.880)
So here, I'm thinking I have a problem.
Lex Fridman (54:15.160)
And at that point, I did what I do.
Lex Fridman (54:17.360)
I talked to him about all the things I was trying to do.
Magatte Wade (54:19.760)
I explained to him why I'm here, why I'm trying to do this.
Lex Fridman (54:22.960)
And even him said, lady, someone like you,
Magatte Wade (54:25.320)
you have no reason to even be here.
Lex Fridman (54:28.360)
You could be back in America, living your life,
Magatte Wade (54:30.960)
la vida loca, you don't have to be here.
Lex Fridman (54:32.640)
So that I think gained a lot of his respect.
Lex Fridman (54:35.240)
And I said, if you don't do, if you don't help me with this,
Lex Fridman (54:38.320)
I understand I shouldn't be of a priority
Magatte Wade (54:40.920)
or anything like that, but I beg you, I beg of you.
Lex Fridman (54:43.600)
I need for this to go on this week.
Lex Fridman (54:46.440)
And he said, okay, that's how I got my meter.
Lex Fridman (54:48.680)
One of those two meters became mine.
Lex Fridman (54:50.640)
So then he said, but we have a problem.
Lex Fridman (54:52.520)
And I said, what?
Magatte Wade (54:53.920)
He said, well, the truck, we need a truck to be here
Lex Fridman (54:57.720)
to do it because of where you are from the poll,
Magatte Wade (55:00.880)
we need long cable lines to get it all done.
Lex Fridman (55:05.360)
But the truck is, I don't know,
Magatte Wade (55:06.760)
I don't know where the truck was
Lex Fridman (55:07.800)
because they had this one truck
Magatte Wade (55:08.680)
for I don't know how many customers.
Lex Fridman (55:10.640)
So I go to the mayor of a town
Magatte Wade (55:11.920)
with whom I'm quite friends, but you see, I know people,
Lex Fridman (55:15.920)
but it shouldn't be this way.
Lex Fridman (55:17.360)
So I go to the mayor of a town and I said, mayor,
Lex Fridman (55:21.240)
he happens to have the same name as me,
Magatte Wade (55:22.760)
first, last name, same, but except he's the ugly one,
Lex Fridman (55:25.520)
I'm the pretty one because, you know, he's, you know.
Magatte Wade (55:28.600)
That's so people can tell you apart, she's the pretty one.
Lex Fridman (55:32.400)
Exactly, I'm the pretty one and he's the whatever.
Lex Fridman (55:34.920)
So I got to the mayor and I'm like, mayor,
Lex Fridman (55:37.360)
I need your help, you need to help me with this.
Lex Fridman (55:38.960)
He's like, now what?
Lex Fridman (55:40.320)
And I explained to him and he's like, okay,
Magatte Wade (55:42.120)
you can take the truck from the city hall.
Lex Fridman (55:45.280)
I'll tell the guys that they can allow you to have it.
Lex Fridman (55:47.640)
And then they come and then you guys can do this.
Lex Fridman (55:50.200)
And then we arrived there.
Lex Fridman (55:51.560)
Guess what?
Lex Fridman (55:52.400)
I thought I was done, Lex, but I was not done.
Magatte Wade (55:54.720)
Because now the electricity company, by the way,
Lex Fridman (55:56.680)
whom we paid, everything was there.
Magatte Wade (55:59.000)
They've been sitting on our money for nine months by now.
Lex Fridman (56:02.360)
Well, we need a ladder long enough to, you know,
Magatte Wade (56:06.440)
like one of the super, super professional ladders
Lex Fridman (56:08.160)
that normally the electricity companies have.
Magatte Wade (56:10.960)
Theirs was in some other village and they didn't know
Lex Fridman (56:15.040)
if it was going to be back for another three days
Magatte Wade (56:16.720)
or four days.
Lex Fridman (56:18.640)
I said, are you kidding me?
Magatte Wade (56:20.520)
He's like, no.
Lex Fridman (56:21.760)
So I call mayor again.
Lex Fridman (56:23.080)
I'm just like, mayor, do you have a ladder?
Lex Fridman (56:25.240)
And I explained and he said,
Lex Fridman (56:26.680)
and that's how I got my electricity hooked up.
Lex Fridman (56:30.640)
Otherwise I probably would still be waiting.
Lex Fridman (56:33.240)
So Lex, you add all of these things together.
Lex Fridman (56:36.240)
And also the fact that in my country, by the way,
Magatte Wade (56:38.360)
the labor laws are so stringent.
Lex Fridman (56:41.200)
Basically you are married to employees for good or for bad.
Lex Fridman (56:44.240)
And some people say, oh no,
Lex Fridman (56:45.960)
you're not married for good or for bad,
Magatte Wade (56:47.560)
except that it will just cost you a lot of time and money
Lex Fridman (56:50.520)
to get rid of any of them.
Magatte Wade (56:52.520)
It doesn't matter the circumstances.
Lex Fridman (56:54.080)
Do you think I really, an entrepreneur really need
Lex Fridman (56:56.080)
to hear something like that?
Lex Fridman (56:57.520)
You know, the head of the ILO,
Magatte Wade (56:58.760)
I had an argument with him at the UN.
Lex Fridman (57:01.240)
And I said to him, listen, and you listened to me very well.
Magatte Wade (57:04.680)
The reason, if you want to protect employees,
Lex Fridman (57:10.320)
as you claim, everything you're doing is to protect employees.
Magatte Wade (57:13.800)
A, you know better of a human being than I am
Lex Fridman (57:17.240)
in terms of wanting to make sure
Magatte Wade (57:18.720)
that people are treated right and fairly.
Lex Fridman (57:21.160)
But last time I checked, Google, for example,
Magatte Wade (57:24.880)
is not offering their employees chef cooked meals,
Lex Fridman (57:28.320)
super healthy, anything they want,
Magatte Wade (57:31.440)
feeding them from morning till evening,
Lex Fridman (57:34.200)
having some babysitters, having childcare on site,
Magatte Wade (57:39.440)
all of these perks that come on top of really cozy salaries.
Lex Fridman (57:44.360)
It did not happen because you, the ILO, told them,
Magatte Wade (57:46.600)
you have to do this.
Lex Fridman (57:47.920)
It happened because there are enough jobs created around
Magatte Wade (57:51.640)
that now you're in an employee's market
Lex Fridman (57:54.960)
and employers have to fall all over themselves
Magatte Wade (57:57.760)
to attract the best talent among us.
Lex Fridman (58:00.680)
That's how it's done.
Lex Fridman (58:01.800)
And not with your nonsense that you're imposing me right now,
Lex Fridman (58:05.320)
which the only results you're gonna get,
Magatte Wade (58:07.240)
like in my country, do you know what we have to show
Lex Fridman (58:09.640)
for all of these, the fact that the Senegalese employees,
Lex Fridman (58:12.440)
the most protected employee on paper in the world?
Lex Fridman (58:15.560)
Well, we're one of the 25 poorest countries in the world.
Magatte Wade (58:19.200)
That's what it got us.
Lex Fridman (58:23.000)
So let's try to just untangle this.
Lex Fridman (58:26.520)
So there's a system in place.
Lex Fridman (58:28.360)
There's a momentum with that system.
Magatte Wade (58:30.720)
Like you said, ladies, it's not my level,
Lex Fridman (58:33.560)
which is for somebody who grew up in the Soviet Union,
Magatte Wade (58:38.240)
at least echoes some of the same sounds I heard
Lex Fridman (58:42.120)
from people I knew there.
Magatte Wade (58:45.720)
It's kind of this helpless feeling like,
Lex Fridman (58:48.040)
well, this is just part of the system,
Magatte Wade (58:50.200)
this gigantic bureaucracy.
Lex Fridman (58:52.520)
And the corruption that happens is just like the only way
Magatte Wade (58:56.720)
to get around, to get anything done.
Lex Fridman (58:58.920)
And so the corruption grows.
Lex Fridman (59:01.240)
Maybe could you speak to the corruption?
Lex Fridman (59:03.160)
Is there, to what degree is there corruption
Lex Fridman (59:06.920)
in Senegal and Africa, and how do we fix it?
Lex Fridman (59:13.040)
So when you said to which degrees there is corruption,
Magatte Wade (59:16.000)
I will respond to you the same I respond to people.
Lex Fridman (59:18.240)
I say, yeah, we have corruption,
Lex Fridman (59:19.880)
and it's almost as bad as in Chicago, right?
Lex Fridman (59:23.320)
So now what I want people to understand
Magatte Wade (59:27.000)
when it comes to corruption,
Lex Fridman (59:28.800)
it's because we are misguided with corruption.
Magatte Wade (59:33.200)
We think corruption is the root cause of problems.
Lex Fridman (59:35.640)
When corruption is simply a symptom
Magatte Wade (59:38.400)
of the deeper root problem.
Lex Fridman (59:42.200)
In this case, if you make the laws so senseless,
Magatte Wade (59:52.200)
meaning, let me give you an example of senseless laws.
Lex Fridman (59:55.960)
Every time I have to import something in my country,
Magatte Wade (59:59.080)
I have a business, we're making lip balms in this case
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