Garry Kasparov: Chess, Deep Blue, AI, and Putin
政治与社会生物与进化历史与文明技术与编程AI 与机器学习
🤖
AI 智能总结
加里·卡斯帕罗夫谈国际象棋、深蓝与普京
这是 Lex Fridman 与史上最伟大的国际象棋棋手加里·卡斯帕罗夫的深度对话。卡斯帕罗夫分享了他与 IBM 深蓝的历史性对决、对 AI 发展的独特洞见，以及他作为俄罗斯政治异见人士对普京政权的批判。
国际象棋深蓝AI人机协作普京俄罗斯政治民主
加里·卡斯帕罗夫是俄罗斯国际象棋大师，1986 年至 2005 年退役期间长期位居世界第一，被许多人认为是史上最伟大的棋手。退役后成为著名的政治活动家和 AI 思想家。
📌 核心观点
- 关于深蓝对决：卡斯帕罗夫回顾了 1997 年输给 IBM 深蓝的历史性比赛，他认为那场比赛存在争议——深蓝在某些关键时刻的走法超出了当时计算机的能力范围，他至今怀疑 IBM 可能有人工干预。
- 人机协作的未来：卡斯帕罗夫是「半人马象棋」（人类与 AI 协作）的早期倡导者，他认为 AI 不应该取代人类，而应该增强人类能力，这一理念远超当时的时代。
- 关于 AI 与创造力：卡斯帕罗夫认为国际象棋证明了 AI 可以在特定领域超越人类，但这不意味着 AI 具有真正的理解力或创造力，棋盘上的「美丽」走法对机器来说只是计算结果。
- 对普京的批判：卡斯帕罗夫是俄罗斯最著名的政治异见人士之一，他详细分析了普京政权的本质——一个由 KGB 文化塑造的腐败寡头体制，西方对其本质长期存在误判。
- 关于自由与民主：卡斯帕罗夫认为自由民主是人类最重要的成就，他对西方民主的软弱和对威权主义的绥靖深感忧虑，呼吁更强硬地捍卫民主价值观。
✨ 金句摘录
卡斯帕罗夫：深蓝在某些关键时刻的走法让我至今困惑——那超出了当时计算机的能力，我怀疑有人工干预。
卡斯帕罗夫：AI 不应该取代人类，而应该增强人类能力——这是我从与深蓝对决中学到的最重要的教训。
卡斯帕罗夫：普京不是一个可以谈判的对手，他只理解力量的语言。
📋 章节目录
暂无章节信息
🔑 关键词
chessgamegamesmachinesmatchmachinelostmistakeshumanknewdeepmadedifferencemagnushumansdonimportantblueideassaid
💬 精彩语录
暂无语录
🎙️ 完整对话（1201 条）
Lex Fridman (00:00.000)
The following is a conversation with Gary Kasparov.
以下是与加里·卡斯帕罗夫的对话。
Lex Fridman (00:03.560)
He's considered by many to be the greatest chess player
他被许多人认为是最伟大的国际象棋棋手
Lex Fridman (00:06.460)
of all time.
有史以来的。
Lex Fridman (00:07.680)
From 1986 until his retirement in 2005,
从1986年到2005年退休，
Lex Fridman (00:11.240)
he dominated the chess world,
他统治了国际象棋世界，
Garry Kasparov (00:13.360)
ranking world number one for most of those 19 years.
这19年中的大部分时间都位居世界第一。
Lex Fridman (00:17.200)
While he has many historical matches
虽然他有很多历史比赛
Garry Kasparov (00:18.880)
against human chess players,
与人类棋手对抗，
Lex Fridman (00:20.840)
in the long arc of history he may be remembered
在历史的长河中他可能会被铭记
Garry Kasparov (00:24.040)
for his match against the machine, IBM's Deep Blue.
与IBM的深蓝机器进行比赛。
Lex Fridman (00:28.840)
His initial victories and eventual loss to Deep Blue
他最初的胜利和最终输给深蓝
Garry Kasparov (00:31.840)
captivated the imagination of the world,
激发了世人的想象力，
Lex Fridman (00:34.680)
of what role artificial intelligence systems may play
人工智能系统可以发挥什么作用
Garry Kasparov (00:37.440)
in our civilization's future.
在我们文明的未来。
Lex Fridman (00:39.720)
That excitement inspired an entire generation
这种兴奋激励了整整一代人
Garry Kasparov (00:42.420)
of AI researchers, including myself,
包括我在内的人工智能研究人员，
Lex Fridman (00:45.160)
to get into the field.
进入该领域。
Garry Kasparov (00:47.240)
Gary is also a pro democracy political thinker and leader,
加里也是一位支持民主的政治思想家和领袖，
Lex Fridman (00:51.320)
a fearless human rights activist,
一位无所畏惧的人权活动家，
Lex Fridman (00:53.280)
and author of several books,
以及多本书的作者，
Lex Fridman (00:54.960)
including How Life Imitates Chess,
Garry Kasparov (00:57.320)
which is a book on strategy and decision making,
Lex Fridman (01:00.080)
Winter is Coming,
Garry Kasparov (01:01.400)
which is a book articulating his opposition
Lex Fridman (01:03.560)
to the Putin regime,
Lex Fridman (01:05.000)
and Deep Thinking,
Lex Fridman (01:06.280)
which is a book on the role
Garry Kasparov (01:07.680)
of both artificial intelligence and human intelligence
Lex Fridman (01:11.480)
in defining our future.
Garry Kasparov (01:13.560)
This is the Artificial Intelligence Podcast.
Lex Fridman (01:16.520)
If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube,
Garry Kasparov (01:19.040)
give it five stars on iTunes,
Lex Fridman (01:21.040)
support it on Patreon,
Garry Kasparov (01:22.280)
or simply connect with me on Twitter
Lex Fridman (01:24.360)
at Lex Friedman, spelled F R I D M A N.
Lex Fridman (01:28.160)
And now, here's my conversation with Gary Kasparov.
Lex Fridman (01:33.460)
As perhaps the greatest chess player of all time,
Garry Kasparov (01:35.960)
when you look introspectively at your psychology
Lex Fridman (01:39.080)
throughout your career,
Lex Fridman (01:40.720)
what was the bigger motivator,
Lex Fridman (01:42.560)
the love of winning or the hatred of losing?
Garry Kasparov (01:46.940)
Tough question.
Lex Fridman (01:49.120)
Have to confess I never heard it before,
Garry Kasparov (01:51.800)
which is again, congratulations.
Lex Fridman (01:53.720)
It's quite an accomplishment.
Garry Kasparov (01:58.760)
Losing was always painful.
Lex Fridman (02:01.200)
For me, it was almost like a physical pain
Garry Kasparov (02:04.480)
because I knew that if I lost the game,
Lex Fridman (02:09.640)
it's just because I made a mistake.
Lex Fridman (02:11.560)
So I always believed that the result of the game
Lex Fridman (02:18.160)
had to be decided by the quality of my play.
Garry Kasparov (02:21.000)
Okay, you may say it sounds arrogant,
Lex Fridman (02:24.360)
but it helped me to move forward
Garry Kasparov (02:26.520)
because I always knew that there was room for improvement.
Lex Fridman (02:30.080)
So it's the...
Lex Fridman (02:31.120)
Was there the fear of the mistake?
Lex Fridman (02:32.960)
Actually, fear of mistake guarantees mistakes.
Lex Fridman (02:36.680)
And the difference between top players at the very top
Lex Fridman (02:40.180)
is that it's the ability to make a decision
Garry Kasparov (02:44.620)
without predictable consequences.
Lex Fridman (02:46.400)
You don't know what's happening.
Garry Kasparov (02:47.560)
It's just intuitively.
Lex Fridman (02:48.680)
I can go this way or that way.
Lex Fridman (02:50.600)
And there are always hesitations.
Lex Fridman (02:52.680)
People are like, you are just at the crossroad.
Garry Kasparov (02:55.040)
You can go right, you can go left, you can go straight.
Lex Fridman (02:57.240)
You can turn and go back.
Lex Fridman (02:58.760)
And the consequences are just very uncertain.
Lex Fridman (03:03.160)
Yes, you have certain ideas what happens on the right
Garry Kasparov (03:07.040)
or on the left or on just if you go straight,
Lex Fridman (03:09.020)
but it's not enough to make well calculated choice.
Lex Fridman (03:13.440)
And when you play chess at the very top,
Lex Fridman (03:16.400)
it's about your inner strength.
Lex Fridman (03:18.740)
So I can make this decision.
Lex Fridman (03:21.080)
I will stand firm and I'm not going to waste my time
Garry Kasparov (03:24.880)
because I have full confidence that I will go through.
Lex Fridman (03:29.640)
Going back to your original question is,
Garry Kasparov (03:32.160)
I would say neither.
Lex Fridman (03:34.340)
It's just, it's love for winning, hate for losing.
Garry Kasparov (03:39.020)
There were important elements, psychological elements,
Lex Fridman (03:41.640)
but the key element, I would say the driving force
Garry Kasparov (03:46.640)
was always my passion for making a difference.
Lex Fridman (03:53.320)
It's just, I can move forward and I can always,
Garry Kasparov (03:57.080)
I can always enjoy not just playing,
Lex Fridman (03:59.920)
but creating something new.
Garry Kasparov (04:01.660)
Creating something new.
Lex Fridman (04:03.160)
How do you think about that?
Garry Kasparov (04:04.520)
It's just finding new ideas in the openings,
Lex Fridman (04:07.440)
some original plan in the middle game.
Garry Kasparov (04:09.580)
It's actually, that helped me to make the transition
Lex Fridman (04:13.300)
from the game of chess where I was on the very top
Garry Kasparov (04:15.920)
to another life where I knew I would not be number one.
Lex Fridman (04:20.160)
I would not be necessarily on the top,
Lex Fridman (04:22.080)
but I could still be very active and productive
Lex Fridman (04:26.720)
by my ability to make a difference,
Garry Kasparov (04:30.240)
by influencing people, say joining the democratic movement
Lex Fridman (04:34.400)
in Russia or talking to people
Garry Kasparov (04:36.580)
about human machine relations.
Lex Fridman (04:38.560)
There's so many things where I knew my influence
Garry Kasparov (04:42.800)
may not be as decisive as in chess,
Lex Fridman (04:45.720)
but still strong enough to help people
Garry Kasparov (04:49.040)
to make their choices.
Lex Fridman (04:51.640)
So you can still create something new
Garry Kasparov (04:53.120)
that makes a difference in the world outside of chess.
Lex Fridman (04:57.160)
But wait, you've kind of painted a beautiful picture
Garry Kasparov (05:01.880)
of your motivations in chess to create something new,
Lex Fridman (05:04.220)
to look for those moments of some brilliant new ideas.
Lex Fridman (05:09.320)
But were you haunted by something?
Lex Fridman (05:11.080)
See, you make it seem like to be at the level you're at,
Garry Kasparov (05:15.120)
you can get away without having demons,
Lex Fridman (05:18.440)
without having fears,
Garry Kasparov (05:21.760)
without being driven by some of the darker forces.
Lex Fridman (05:26.840)
I mean, you sound almost religious.
Garry Kasparov (05:29.640)
The darker forces, spiritual demons.
Lex Fridman (05:32.800)
I mean, do you have a call for a priest?
Garry Kasparov (05:34.800)
That's what I'm dressing as.
Lex Fridman (05:37.480)
Now, just let's go back to these crucial chess moments
Garry Kasparov (05:42.400)
where I had to make big decisions.
Lex Fridman (05:44.480)
As I said, it was all about my belief from very early days
Garry Kasparov (05:50.120)
that I can make all the difference by playing well
Lex Fridman (05:52.920)
or by making mistakes.
Lex Fridman (05:53.960)
So yes, I always had an opponent
Lex Fridman (05:57.080)
across the chess board, opposite me.
Lex Fridman (06:00.240)
But no matter how strong the opponent was,
Lex Fridman (06:02.920)
whether it just was ordinary player
Garry Kasparov (06:04.360)
or another world champion like Anatoly Karpov,
Lex Fridman (06:09.400)
having all respect for my opponent,
Garry Kasparov (06:10.880)
I still believe that it's up to me to make the difference.
Lex Fridman (06:14.400)
And I knew I was not invincible.
Garry Kasparov (06:21.600)
I made mistakes.
Lex Fridman (06:22.560)
I made some blunders.
Lex Fridman (06:23.800)
And with age, I made more blunders.
Lex Fridman (06:28.240)
So I knew it.
Lex Fridman (06:30.400)
But it's still, it's very much for me
Lex Fridman (06:34.360)
to be decisive factor in the game.
Garry Kasparov (06:37.000)
I mean, even now, look, I just,
Lex Fridman (06:38.360)
my latest chess experience was horrible.
Garry Kasparov (06:40.360)
I mean, I played Caruana, Fabi Caruana,
Lex Fridman (06:44.920)
this number two, number two,
Garry Kasparov (06:46.120)
number three player in the world these days.
Lex Fridman (06:47.840)
We played this 960 with the Fischer,
Lex Fridman (06:50.520)
so called Fischer random chess, reshuffling pieces.
Lex Fridman (06:52.960)
Yeah, I lost very badly, but it's because I made mistakes.
Garry Kasparov (06:56.240)
I mean, I had so many winning positions.
Lex Fridman (06:57.720)
I mean, 15 years ago, I would have crushed him.
Garry Kasparov (07:00.000)
So, and it's, you know, while I lost,
Lex Fridman (07:03.640)
I was not so much upset.
Garry Kasparov (07:05.160)
I mean, I know, as I said in the interview,
Lex Fridman (07:08.280)
I can fight any opponent, but not my biological clock.
Lex Fridman (07:10.840)
So it's fighting time is always a losing proposition.
Lex Fridman (07:16.600)
But even today at age 56, you know,
Garry Kasparov (07:18.920)
I knew that, you know, I could play great game.
Lex Fridman (07:22.120)
I couldn't finish it because I didn't have enough energy
Garry Kasparov (07:24.400)
or just, you know,
Lex Fridman (07:25.560)
I couldn't have the same level of concentration.
Garry Kasparov (07:27.640)
But, you know, in number of games
Lex Fridman (07:29.720)
where I completely outplayed one of the top players
Garry Kasparov (07:31.960)
in the world, I mean, gave me a certain amount of pleasure.
Lex Fridman (07:35.360)
That is, even today, I haven't lost my touch.
Garry Kasparov (07:38.440)
Not the same, you know.
Lex Fridman (07:40.320)
Okay, the jaws are not as strong
Lex Fridman (07:43.080)
and the teeth are not as sharp,
Lex Fridman (07:44.760)
but I could get to him just, you know,
Garry Kasparov (07:47.040)
almost, you know, on the ropes.
Lex Fridman (07:49.240)
Still got it.
Garry Kasparov (07:50.080)
Still got it.
Lex Fridman (07:50.920)
And it's, you know, and it's,
Garry Kasparov (07:52.320)
I think it's, my wife said it well.
Lex Fridman (07:54.560)
I mean, she said, look, Gary,
Garry Kasparov (07:55.920)
it's somehow, it's not just fighting your biological clock.
Lex Fridman (07:59.720)
It's just, you know, maybe it's a signal
Garry Kasparov (08:01.480)
because, you know, the goddess of chess,
Lex Fridman (08:03.720)
since you spoke great about demons.
Garry Kasparov (08:05.640)
The goddess of chess, Keisha,
Lex Fridman (08:07.560)
maybe she didn't want you to win
Garry Kasparov (08:09.000)
because, you know, if you could beat
Lex Fridman (08:12.480)
number two, number three player in the world,
Garry Kasparov (08:14.480)
I mean, that's one of the top players
Lex Fridman (08:16.600)
who just recently played World Championship match.
Garry Kasparov (08:19.280)
If you could beat him,
Lex Fridman (08:20.840)
that would be really bad for the game of chess.
Lex Fridman (08:23.040)
But just, what people will say,
Lex Fridman (08:24.880)
oh, look, the game of chess, you know,
Garry Kasparov (08:26.280)
it's not making any progress.
Lex Fridman (08:28.400)
The game is just, you know,
Garry Kasparov (08:29.520)
it's totally devalued because, look,
Lex Fridman (08:32.480)
the guy coming out of retirement,
Garry Kasparov (08:34.080)
you know, just, you know, winning games,
Lex Fridman (08:35.600)
maybe that was good for chess, not good for you.
Lex Fridman (08:37.800)
But it's, look, I've been following your logic.
Lex Fridman (08:41.520)
We should always look for, you know, demons,
Garry Kasparov (08:43.480)
you know, superior forces and other things
Lex Fridman (08:46.360)
that could, you know, if not dominate our lives,
Lex Fridman (08:48.960)
but somehow, you know, play a significant role
Lex Fridman (08:52.640)
in the outcome.
Garry Kasparov (08:55.560)
Yeah, so the goddess of chess had to send a message.
Lex Fridman (08:58.240)
Yeah, that's okay.
Lex Fridman (08:59.840)
So Gary, you should do something else.
Lex Fridman (09:02.680)
Time.
Garry Kasparov (09:04.000)
Now for a question that you have heard before,
Lex Fridman (09:06.920)
but give me a chance.
Garry Kasparov (09:09.320)
You've dominated the chess world for 20 years,
Lex Fridman (09:12.280)
even still got it.
Garry Kasparov (09:14.240)
Is there a moment, you said,
Lex Fridman (09:15.880)
you always look to create something new.
Garry Kasparov (09:17.560)
Is there games or moments
Lex Fridman (09:21.320)
where you're especially proud of
Lex Fridman (09:23.400)
in terms of your brilliance of a new creative move?
Lex Fridman (09:27.240)
You've talked about Mikhail Tal
Garry Kasparov (09:28.600)
as somebody who was aggressive and creative chess player
Lex Fridman (09:31.840)
in your own game.
Garry Kasparov (09:33.480)
Look, you mentioned Mikhail Tal.
Lex Fridman (09:35.560)
It's very aggressive, very sharp player,
Garry Kasparov (09:39.400)
famous for his combinations and sacrifices,
Lex Fridman (09:42.280)
even called magician from Riga,
Lex Fridman (09:44.120)
so for his very unique style.
Lex Fridman (09:47.400)
But any world champion, you know,
Garry Kasparov (09:50.920)
it's, yeah, was a creator.
Lex Fridman (09:53.160)
Some of them were so flamboyant and flash like Tal.
Garry Kasparov (09:57.600)
Some of them were no just, you know,
Lex Fridman (09:59.160)
less discerned at the chess board like Tigran Petrosian,
Lex Fridman (10:04.000)
but every world champion, every top player
Lex Fridman (10:07.120)
brought something into the game of chess.
Lex Fridman (10:09.000)
And each contribution was priceless
Lex Fridman (10:11.680)
because it's not just about sacrifices.
Garry Kasparov (10:13.680)
Of course, amateurs, they enjoy, you know,
Lex Fridman (10:15.920)
the brilliant games where pieces being sacrificed.
Garry Kasparov (10:18.800)
It's all just, you know, it's all piece of hanging.
Lex Fridman (10:21.520)
And it's all of a sudden, you know,
Garry Kasparov (10:24.040)
being material down, a rook down,
Lex Fridman (10:26.320)
or just, you know, queen down.
Garry Kasparov (10:28.280)
The weaker side delivers the final blow
Lex Fridman (10:33.880)
on just, you know, mating opponent's king.
Lex Fridman (10:36.200)
But there are other kinds of beauty.
Lex Fridman (10:38.600)
I mean, it's a slow positional maneuvering,
Garry Kasparov (10:41.080)
you know, looking for weaknesses
Lex Fridman (10:42.520)
and just, and gradually, you know,
Garry Kasparov (10:44.880)
strangling your opponent
Lex Fridman (10:47.280)
and eventually delivering sort of a positional masterpiece.
Lex Fridman (10:51.720)
So I think I made more difference in the game of chess
Lex Fridman (10:55.280)
than I could have imagined when I started playing.
Lex Fridman (10:58.800)
And the reason I thought it was time for me to leave
Lex Fridman (11:01.600)
was just, I mean, I knew that I was not,
Garry Kasparov (11:05.560)
I was not, no longer the position to
Lex Fridman (11:10.360)
bring the same kind of contribution,
Garry Kasparov (11:14.800)
the same kind of new knowledge into the game.
Lex Fridman (11:18.320)
So, and going back,
Garry Kasparov (11:21.640)
I could immediately look at my games
Lex Fridman (11:24.160)
against Anatoly Karpov.
Garry Kasparov (11:25.280)
It's not just I won the match in 1985
Lex Fridman (11:27.800)
and became a world champion at age 22,
Lex Fridman (11:31.160)
but there were at least two games in that match.
Lex Fridman (11:34.600)
Of course, the last one, game 24,
Garry Kasparov (11:36.680)
that was decisive game of the match,
Lex Fridman (11:38.120)
I won and became world champion.
Lex Fridman (11:40.760)
But also the way I won, it was a very sharp game
Lex Fridman (11:45.640)
and I found a unique maneuver that was absolutely new
Lex Fridman (11:48.920)
and it became some sort of just a typical now,
Lex Fridman (11:52.280)
though just when the move was made,
Garry Kasparov (11:55.200)
was made on the board and put on display,
Lex Fridman (11:58.920)
a lot of people thought it was ugly.
Lex Fridman (12:01.360)
And another game, game 16 in the match
Lex Fridman (12:03.600)
where I just also managed to outplay Karpov completely
Garry Kasparov (12:06.800)
with black pieces, just paralyzing his entire army
Lex Fridman (12:10.840)
in its own camp.
Garry Kasparov (12:13.280)
Technically or psychologically,
Lex Fridman (12:14.800)
or was that a mix of both in game 16?
Garry Kasparov (12:17.560)
Yeah, I think it was a big blow to Karpov.
Lex Fridman (12:19.960)
I think it was a big psychological victory
Garry Kasparov (12:21.840)
for a number of reasons.
Lex Fridman (12:22.920)
One, the score was equal at the time
Lex Fridman (12:25.280)
and the world champion by the rules
Lex Fridman (12:28.040)
could retain his title in case of a tie.
Lex Fridman (12:30.760)
So we still have, before game 16, we have nine games to go.
Lex Fridman (12:35.080)
And also it was some sort of a bluff
Garry Kasparov (12:37.080)
because neither me nor Karpov saw the refutation
Lex Fridman (12:41.520)
of this opening idea.
Lex Fridman (12:42.840)
And I think it says for Karpov, it was double blow
Lex Fridman (12:46.640)
because not that he lost the game, I should triple blow.
Garry Kasparov (12:48.840)
He lost the game, it was a brilliant game
Lex Fridman (12:50.960)
and I played impeccably after just this opening bluff.
Lex Fridman (12:55.240)
And then they discovered that it was a bluff.
Lex Fridman (12:57.440)
So it's the, again, I didn't know, I was not bluffing.
Lex Fridman (13:00.480)
So that's why it happens very often.
Lex Fridman (13:03.160)
Some ideas could be refuted.
Lex Fridman (13:04.520)
And it's just, what I found out,
Lex Fridman (13:06.240)
and this is again, going back to your spiritual theme
Garry Kasparov (13:09.200)
is that you could spend a lot of time working.
Lex Fridman (13:13.000)
And when I say you could, it's in the 80s, in the 90s.
Garry Kasparov (13:16.400)
It doesn't happen these days because everybody
Lex Fridman (13:17.960)
has a computer.
Garry Kasparov (13:18.880)
You could immediately see if it works or it doesn't work.
Lex Fridman (13:21.400)
Machine shows your refutation in a split of a second.
Lex Fridman (13:24.600)
But many of the analysis in the 80s or in the 90s,
Lex Fridman (13:28.640)
they were not perfect simply because we're humans
Lex Fridman (13:31.560)
and just you analyze the game,
Lex Fridman (13:34.080)
you look for some fresh ideas.
Lex Fridman (13:36.040)
And then just it happens that there was something
Lex Fridman (13:39.280)
that you missed because the level of the concentration
Garry Kasparov (13:42.720)
at the chess board is different from when you analyze
Lex Fridman (13:45.960)
the game, just moving the pieces around.
Garry Kasparov (13:47.760)
And, but somehow if you spend a lot of time
Lex Fridman (13:52.480)
at the chess board preparing, so in your studies
Garry Kasparov (13:55.360)
with your coaches, hours and hours and hours,
Lex Fridman (13:59.880)
and nothing of what you found could,
Garry Kasparov (14:03.560)
had materialized on the chess board.
Lex Fridman (14:08.920)
Somehow these hours help, I don't know why,
Garry Kasparov (14:12.280)
always helped you.
Lex Fridman (14:14.200)
It's as if the amount of work you did could be transformed
Garry Kasparov (14:19.640)
into some sort of spiritual energy that helped you
Lex Fridman (14:23.840)
to come up with other great ideas during the board.
Garry Kasparov (14:27.400)
Again, even if there was no direct connection
Lex Fridman (14:30.320)
between your preparation and your victory in the game,
Garry Kasparov (14:33.880)
there was always some sort of invisible connection
Lex Fridman (14:37.760)
between the amount of work you did,
Garry Kasparov (14:39.880)
your dedication to actually, and your passion
Lex Fridman (14:42.840)
to discover new ideas, and your ability during the game
Garry Kasparov (14:47.440)
at the chess board, when the clock was ticking,
Lex Fridman (14:49.320)
we still had ticking clock, not digital clock at the time.
Lex Fridman (14:52.120)
So to come up with some brilliance.
Lex Fridman (14:55.120)
And I also can mention many games from the 90s.
Lex Fridman (14:59.800)
So it's the, obviously all amateurs would pick up my game
Lex Fridman (15:04.240)
against Veselin Topalov in 1999 and V. Konzai.
Garry Kasparov (15:07.360)
Again, because it was a brilliant game,
Lex Fridman (15:09.680)
the Black King traveled from its own camp
Garry Kasparov (15:13.560)
to into White's camp across the entire board.
Lex Fridman (15:17.760)
It doesn't happen often, trust me, as you know,
Garry Kasparov (15:20.600)
in the games with professional players,
Lex Fridman (15:23.280)
top professional players.
Lex Fridman (15:24.520)
So that's why visually it was one
Lex Fridman (15:26.720)
of the most impressive victories.
Lex Fridman (15:28.360)
But I could bring to your attention many other games
Lex Fridman (15:33.280)
that were not so impressive for amateurs,
Garry Kasparov (15:37.600)
not so beautiful, just because it's sacrifice
Lex Fridman (15:43.080)
is always beautiful, you sacrifice pieces.
Lex Fridman (15:44.840)
And then eventually you have very few resources left
Lex Fridman (15:48.840)
and you use them just to crush your opponent basically.
Garry Kasparov (15:54.720)
You have to make the king because you have almost
Lex Fridman (15:58.240)
nothing left at your disposal.
Lex Fridman (16:01.280)
But up to the very end, again, less and less,
Lex Fridman (16:06.160)
but still up to the very end, I always had games
Garry Kasparov (16:08.880)
with some sort of interesting ideas
Lex Fridman (16:11.880)
and games that gave me great satisfaction.
Lex Fridman (16:14.800)
But I think it's what happened from 2005 up to these days
Lex Fridman (16:20.840)
was also a very big accomplishment
Garry Kasparov (16:24.600)
since I had to find myself to sort of relocate myself.
Lex Fridman (16:28.640)
Yeah, rechannel the creative energies.
Garry Kasparov (16:30.680)
Exactly, and to find something where I feel comfortable,
Lex Fridman (16:35.680)
even confident that my participation
Garry Kasparov (16:39.440)
still makes the difference.
Lex Fridman (16:41.400)
Beautifully put.
Lex Fridman (16:42.560)
So let me ask perhaps a silly question,
Lex Fridman (16:44.880)
but sticking on chest for just a little longer.
Garry Kasparov (16:48.440)
Where do you put Magnus Carlsen, the current world champion
Lex Fridman (16:51.120)
in the list of all time greats?
Garry Kasparov (16:54.200)
In terms of style, moments of brilliance, consistency.
Lex Fridman (16:57.880)
It's a tricky question.
Garry Kasparov (16:59.520)
The moment you start ranking world champions.
Lex Fridman (17:02.600)
Yeah, you lose something?
Garry Kasparov (17:04.560)
I think it's not fair because any new generation
Lex Fridman (17:12.040)
knows much more about the game than the previous one.
Lex Fridman (17:15.120)
So when people say, oh, Gary was the greatest,
Lex Fridman (17:17.640)
Fischer was the greatest, Magnus was the greatest,
Garry Kasparov (17:19.680)
it disregard the fact that the great players of the past,
Lex Fridman (17:24.360)
whether it was Alaskia, Capoplank, Alokian,
Garry Kasparov (17:26.800)
I mean, they knew so little about chess
Lex Fridman (17:28.800)
by today's standards.
Garry Kasparov (17:29.920)
I mean, today, just any kid that spent a few years
Lex Fridman (17:32.640)
with his or her chess computer knows much more
Garry Kasparov (17:37.520)
about the game simply just because you have access
Lex Fridman (17:40.080)
to this information.
Lex Fridman (17:40.960)
And it has been discovered generation after generation.
Lex Fridman (17:43.480)
We added more and more knowledge to the game of chess.
Garry Kasparov (17:46.880)
It's about the gap between the world champion
Lex Fridman (17:50.360)
and the rest of the field.
Lex Fridman (17:51.720)
So it's the, now, if you look at the gap,
Lex Fridman (17:55.240)
then probably Fischer could be on top,
Lex Fridman (17:58.280)
but very short period of time.
Lex Fridman (17:59.800)
Then you should also add a time factor.
Garry Kasparov (18:01.960)
I was on top, not as big as Fischer, but much longer.
Lex Fridman (18:05.640)
So, and also, unlike Fischer,
Garry Kasparov (18:08.440)
I succeeded in beating next generation.
Lex Fridman (18:11.760)
Here's the question.
Garry Kasparov (18:13.240)
Let's see if you still got the fire,
Lex Fridman (18:14.800)
speaking of the next generation,
Garry Kasparov (18:15.960)
because you did succeed beating the next generation.
Lex Fridman (18:19.000)
It's close.
Garry Kasparov (18:19.840)
Okay, Anand, Short, Anand, the sheer of,
Lex Fridman (18:22.920)
Kramnik is already 12 years younger.
Lex Fridman (18:24.440)
So that's the next.
Lex Fridman (18:25.560)
But still yet, I competed with them
Lex Fridman (18:28.200)
and I just, I beat most of them.
Lex Fridman (18:30.000)
And I was still dominant when I left at age of 41.
Lex Fridman (18:34.200)
So back to Magnus.
Lex Fridman (18:36.800)
Magnus, I mean, consistency is phenomenal.
Garry Kasparov (18:40.240)
The reason Magnus is on top,
Lex Fridman (18:42.920)
and it seems unbeatable today,
Garry Kasparov (18:46.640)
Magnus is a lethal combination of Fischer and Karpov,
Lex Fridman (18:50.680)
which is very, it's very unusual
Garry Kasparov (18:52.920)
because Fischer's style was very dynamic,
Lex Fridman (18:54.840)
just fighting to the last point,
Garry Kasparov (18:56.800)
just using every resource available.
Lex Fridman (18:59.120)
Karpov was very different.
Garry Kasparov (19:01.320)
It's just an unparalleled ability
Lex Fridman (19:04.680)
to use every piece with a maximum effect.
Garry Kasparov (19:07.600)
Just its minimal resources always produce maximum effect.
Lex Fridman (19:12.040)
So now imagine that you merge these two styles.
Lex Fridman (19:15.160)
So it's like, you know,
Lex Fridman (19:17.160)
it's squeezing every stone for a drop of water,
Lex Fridman (19:21.280)
but doing it, you know, just, you know,
Lex Fridman (19:22.880)
for 50, 60, 70, 80 moves.
Garry Kasparov (19:25.080)
I mean, Magnus could go on as long as Fischer
Lex Fridman (19:27.280)
with all his passion and energy.
Lex Fridman (19:28.920)
And at the same time being as meticulous
Lex Fridman (19:31.440)
and deadly as Karpov by just, you know,
Garry Kasparov (19:35.200)
using every little advantage.
Lex Fridman (19:36.840)
So, and he has good, you know, very good health.
Garry Kasparov (19:40.560)
It's important.
Lex Fridman (19:41.400)
I mean, physical conditions are, by the way,
Garry Kasparov (19:42.600)
very important.
Lex Fridman (19:43.440)
So a lot of people don't recognize it.
Garry Kasparov (19:44.720)
Their latest study shows that chess players
Lex Fridman (19:46.920)
burn thousands of calories during the game.
Lex Fridman (19:50.920)
So that puts him on the top of this field
Lex Fridman (19:54.480)
of the world champions.
Lex Fridman (19:56.000)
But again, it's the discussion that is,
Lex Fridman (19:59.440)
I saw recently on the internet,
Garry Kasparov (20:00.720)
whether Garry Kasparov of his peak,
Lex Fridman (20:03.200)
let's say late eighties, could beat Magnus Carlsen today.
Garry Kasparov (20:06.600)
I mean, it's certainly irrelevant
Lex Fridman (20:07.600)
because Garry Kasparov in 1989, okay,
Garry Kasparov (20:10.920)
has played great chess,
Lex Fridman (20:12.760)
but still I knew very little about chess
Garry Kasparov (20:15.200)
compared to Magnus Carlsen in 2019,
Lex Fridman (20:17.160)
who by the way, learned from me as well.
Lex Fridman (20:18.840)
So that's why, yeah.
Lex Fridman (20:20.480)
I'm extremely cautious in making any judgment
Garry Kasparov (20:24.040)
that involves, you know, time gaps.
Lex Fridman (20:26.560)
You ask, you know, soccer fans.
Lex Fridman (20:28.720)
So who is your favorite?
Lex Fridman (20:30.120)
Pele, Maradona, or Messi?
Garry Kasparov (20:31.960)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (20:32.800)
Yeah, who's your favorite?
Garry Kasparov (20:33.960)
Messi.
Lex Fridman (20:34.800)
Messi.
Lex Fridman (20:35.640)
Yeah, why?
Lex Fridman (20:36.720)
Because?
Garry Kasparov (20:37.560)
Maybe Maradona, maybe.
Lex Fridman (20:38.520)
Not because you're younger, but that's simple.
Garry Kasparov (20:40.040)
Your instinctive answer is correct
Lex Fridman (20:41.720)
because you saw, you didn't see Maradona in action.
Garry Kasparov (20:44.480)
I saw all of them in action.
Lex Fridman (20:45.880)
So that's why, but since, you know,
Garry Kasparov (20:48.080)
when I was, you know, just following it, you know,
Lex Fridman (20:50.240)
just Pele and Maradona, they were just, you know,
Garry Kasparov (20:52.800)
they were big stars and it's, Messi's already just,
Lex Fridman (20:55.280)
I was gradually losing interest in just other things.
Lex Fridman (20:58.800)
So I remember Pele in 1970, the final match Brazil Italy.
Lex Fridman (21:02.240)
So that's the first World Cup soccer I watched.
Lex Fridman (21:05.720)
So that's the, and actually my answer when I just,
Lex Fridman (21:09.280)
when I just, you know,
Garry Kasparov (21:10.400)
because I was asked this question as well.
Lex Fridman (21:12.480)
So I say that it's just,
Garry Kasparov (21:13.840)
while it's impossible to make a choice,
Lex Fridman (21:15.640)
I would still probably go with Maradona for simple reason.
Garry Kasparov (21:18.440)
The Brazilian team in 1970 could have won without Pele.
Lex Fridman (21:21.960)
It was absolutely great.
Garry Kasparov (21:23.200)
Still could have won, maybe, but it is,
Lex Fridman (21:26.280)
Argentinian team in 1986 without Maradona
Garry Kasparov (21:28.720)
would not be in the final.
Lex Fridman (21:29.760)
So this is, and Messi, he still hasn't won a title.
Garry Kasparov (21:33.880)
You could argue for that for an hour,
Lex Fridman (21:35.600)
but you could say, if you ask Maradona,
Garry Kasparov (21:38.680)
if you look in his eyes, especially,
Lex Fridman (21:40.680)
let's say Gary Kasparov in 1989,
Garry Kasparov (21:43.520)
he would have said,
Lex Fridman (21:45.200)
I was sure as hell would beat Magnus Carlsen.
Garry Kasparov (21:48.560)
Just simply because. The confidence, the fire.
Lex Fridman (21:50.480)
Simply because, again, they saw me in action.
Lex Fridman (21:54.080)
So this, again, it's the age factor that's important.
Lex Fridman (21:56.880)
Definitely with the passion and energy
Lex Fridman (21:58.640)
and being equipped with all modern ideas.
Lex Fridman (22:01.720)
But again, then you make, you know,
Garry Kasparov (22:04.040)
a very just important assumption
Lex Fridman (22:05.880)
that you could empower Gary Kasparov in 1989
Garry Kasparov (22:08.720)
with all ideas that have been accumulated over 30 years.
Lex Fridman (22:11.560)
That would not be Gary Kasparov.
Garry Kasparov (22:12.720)
That would be someone else.
Lex Fridman (22:14.320)
Because again, I belong to 1989.
Garry Kasparov (22:16.280)
I was way ahead of the field.
Lex Fridman (22:18.960)
And I beat Karpov several times
Garry Kasparov (22:21.840)
in the World Championship matches.
Lex Fridman (22:23.240)
And I crossed 2800, which, by the way,
Garry Kasparov (22:26.440)
if you look at the, in the rating,
Lex Fridman (22:28.480)
which is just, even today,
Lex Fridman (22:31.480)
so this is the rating that I retire.
Lex Fridman (22:33.680)
So it's still, you know, it's just, it's a top two, three.
Lex Fridman (22:37.120)
So that's Caruana and Ding.
Lex Fridman (22:38.840)
It's about the same rating now.
Lex Fridman (22:40.600)
And I crossed 2800 in 1990.
Lex Fridman (22:43.440)
Well, just you look at the inflation.
Garry Kasparov (22:45.000)
When I crossed 2800 in 1990,
Lex Fridman (22:47.440)
there was only one player in 2700 category,
Lex Fridman (22:49.720)
and not only Karpov.
Lex Fridman (22:50.720)
Now we had more than 50.
Lex Fridman (22:52.240)
So just, when you see this, so if you add inflation,
Lex Fridman (22:55.160)
so I think my 2851, it could probably,
Garry Kasparov (22:58.160)
could be more valuable as Magnus 2882,
Lex Fridman (23:02.160)
which was his highest rating.
Lex Fridman (23:04.240)
But anyway, again, too many hypotheticals.
Lex Fridman (23:07.080)
You're lost to IBM Deep Blue in 1997.
Garry Kasparov (23:10.960)
In my eyes, that is one of the most seminal moments
Lex Fridman (23:13.440)
in the history.
Garry Kasparov (23:15.040)
Again, I apologize for being romanticizing the notion,
Lex Fridman (23:18.560)
but in the history of our civilization,
Garry Kasparov (23:20.520)
because humans, as the civilizations,
Lex Fridman (23:25.280)
for centuries saw chess as, you know,
Garry Kasparov (23:27.200)
the peak of what man can accomplish
Lex Fridman (23:29.360)
of intellectual mastery, right?
Lex Fridman (23:31.720)
And that moment when a machine could beat a human being
Lex Fridman (23:36.600)
was inspiring to just an entire,
Garry Kasparov (23:40.240)
anyone who cares about science, innovation,
Lex Fridman (23:43.360)
an entire generation of AI researchers.
Lex Fridman (23:46.280)
And yet, to you that loss, at least if reading your face,
Lex Fridman (23:50.800)
was, seemed like a tragedy, extremely painful.
Garry Kasparov (23:53.640)
Like you said, physically painful.
Lex Fridman (23:55.560)
Why?
Garry Kasparov (23:56.560)
When you look back at your psychology of that loss,
Lex Fridman (23:59.720)
why was it so painful?
Lex Fridman (24:01.240)
Were you not able to see the seminal nature of that moment?
Lex Fridman (24:07.240)
Or was that exactly why it was that painful?
Garry Kasparov (24:10.240)
As I already said, losing was painful, physically painful.
Lex Fridman (24:17.040)
And the match I lost in 1997
Garry Kasparov (24:18.960)
was not the first match I lost to a machine.
Lex Fridman (24:22.000)
It was the first match I lost, period.
Garry Kasparov (24:23.720)
Yeah.
Lex Fridman (24:24.560)
That's...
Garry Kasparov (24:27.120)
Oh, wow.
Lex Fridman (24:28.440)
So...
Garry Kasparov (24:29.280)
Oh, wow.
Lex Fridman (24:30.400)
Yeah, it's...
Garry Kasparov (24:31.800)
Right.
Lex Fridman (24:32.640)
Yeah, that makes all the difference to me.
Garry Kasparov (24:35.840)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (24:36.680)
First time I lost, it's just...
Garry Kasparov (24:38.360)
Now, I lost, and the reason I was so angry
Lex Fridman (24:42.360)
that I just, you know, I had suspicions
Garry Kasparov (24:46.120)
that my loss was not just a result of my bad play.
Lex Fridman (24:49.160)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (24:50.000)
So though I played quite poorly, you know,
Lex Fridman (24:51.520)
just when you started looking at the games today,
Garry Kasparov (24:53.240)
I made tons of mistakes.
Lex Fridman (24:54.880)
But, you know, I had all reasons to believe that,
Garry Kasparov (24:57.760)
you know, there were other factors
Lex Fridman (25:00.160)
that had nothing to do with the game of chess.
Lex Fridman (25:01.720)
And that's why I was angry.
Lex Fridman (25:02.920)
But look, it was 22 years ago.
Garry Kasparov (25:05.440)
It's water under the bridge.
Lex Fridman (25:07.200)
We can analyze this match,
Lex Fridman (25:08.920)
and this is with everything you said.
Lex Fridman (25:10.640)
I agree with probably one exception,
Garry Kasparov (25:13.280)
is that considering chess, you know,
Lex Fridman (25:16.360)
as the sort of, as a pinnacle of intellectual activities,
Garry Kasparov (25:20.200)
was our mistake.
Lex Fridman (25:21.320)
Because, you know, we just thought,
Garry Kasparov (25:22.960)
oh, it's a game of the highest intellect,
Lex Fridman (25:25.680)
and it's just, you know, you have to be so,
Garry Kasparov (25:27.480)
you know, intelligent, and you could see things
Lex Fridman (25:29.560)
that, you know, the ordinary mortals could not see.
Garry Kasparov (25:34.560)
It's a game, and all machines had to do with this game
Lex Fridman (25:40.080)
is just to make fewer mistakes, not to solve the game.
Garry Kasparov (25:43.040)
Because the game cannot be solved.
Lex Fridman (25:44.600)
I mean, according to Kovalevich Shannon,
Garry Kasparov (25:45.760)
the number of legal moves is 10 to the 46th power.
Lex Fridman (25:49.040)
Too many zeros, so just for any computer
Garry Kasparov (25:51.680)
to finish the job, you know, in next few billion years.
Lex Fridman (25:57.560)
But it doesn't have to.
Garry Kasparov (25:59.120)
It's all about making fewer mistakes.
Lex Fridman (26:01.480)
And I think that's the, this match,
Garry Kasparov (26:03.560)
this match actually, and what's happened afterwards
Lex Fridman (26:06.000)
with other games, with Go, with Shoggy, with video games.
Garry Kasparov (26:12.640)
It's a demonstration that machines will always be humans
Lex Fridman (26:17.320)
in what I call closed systems.
Garry Kasparov (26:19.360)
The moment you build a closed system,
Lex Fridman (26:22.000)
no matter how the system's called, chess, Go, Shoggy,
Garry Kasparov (26:26.040)
Dota, machines will prevail simply because they will
Lex Fridman (26:31.040)
bring down a number of mistakes.
Garry Kasparov (26:34.800)
Machines don't have to solve it, they just have to,
Lex Fridman (26:38.320)
the way they outplay us, it's not by just being
Garry Kasparov (26:41.080)
more intelligent, it's just by doing something else,
Lex Fridman (26:45.040)
but eventually it's just, it's capitalizing on our mistakes.
Garry Kasparov (26:48.720)
When you look at the chess machines ratings today,
Lex Fridman (26:51.760)
and compare this to Magnus Carlsen,
Garry Kasparov (26:54.280)
it's the same as comparing Ferrari to Usain Bolt.
Lex Fridman (26:57.160)
It's the, the gap is, I mean, by chess standards,
Garry Kasparov (27:01.160)
is insane, 34, 3500 to 2800, 2850 on Magnus.
Lex Fridman (27:06.400)
It's like difference between Magnus and an ordinary player
Garry Kasparov (27:09.880)
from an open international tournament.
Lex Fridman (27:13.560)
It's not because machine understanding
Garry Kasparov (27:15.200)
is better than Magnus Carlsen,
Lex Fridman (27:17.040)
but simply because it's steady.
Garry Kasparov (27:19.320)
Machine has steady hand.
Lex Fridman (27:21.480)
And I think that is what we, we, we,
Garry Kasparov (27:24.920)
we have to learn from 1997 experience,
Lex Fridman (27:28.920)
and from further encounters with computers,
Lex Fridman (27:31.680)
and sort of the current state of affairs with AlphaZero,
Lex Fridman (27:36.120)
beating other machines.
Garry Kasparov (27:38.320)
The idea that we can compete with computers
Lex Fridman (27:41.880)
in so called intellectual fields,
Garry Kasparov (27:44.800)
it was wrong from the very beginning.
Lex Fridman (27:47.400)
It's just, it's, by the way, the 1997 match
Garry Kasparov (27:50.240)
was not the first victory of machines over AlphaZero.
Lex Fridman (27:54.680)
Or grandmasters.
Garry Kasparov (27:56.680)
Or grandmasters.
Lex Fridman (27:57.640)
No, actually it's, I played against
Garry Kasparov (28:00.720)
first decent chess computers from late, from late 80s.
Lex Fridman (28:04.120)
So I played with the prototype of Deep Blue
Garry Kasparov (28:07.200)
called Deep Thought in 1989,
Lex Fridman (28:09.280)
two rapid chess games in New York,
Garry Kasparov (28:10.600)
I won handily to both games.
Lex Fridman (28:13.120)
We played against new chess engines like Fritz,
Lex Fridman (28:17.240)
and other programs.
Lex Fridman (28:18.800)
And then it's the, it was Israeli program Junior
Garry Kasparov (28:21.320)
that appeared in 1995.
Lex Fridman (28:23.240)
Yeah, so there were, there were several programs.
Garry Kasparov (28:25.440)
I, you know, I lost few games in Blitz.
Lex Fridman (28:28.240)
I lost one match against the computer chess engine
Garry Kasparov (28:31.160)
1994 rapid chess.
Lex Fridman (28:33.120)
So I lost one game to Deep Blue in 1996 match,
Garry Kasparov (28:36.120)
the man, the match I won.
Lex Fridman (28:38.160)
Some people, you know, tend to forget about it
Garry Kasparov (28:40.000)
that I won the first match.
Lex Fridman (28:41.360)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (28:42.280)
But it's, it's, we,
Lex Fridman (28:45.520)
we made a very important psychological mistake
Garry Kasparov (28:48.280)
thinking that the reason we lost Blitz matches,
Lex Fridman (28:51.120)
five, five minutes games.
Garry Kasparov (28:52.440)
The reason we lost some of the rapid chess matches,
Lex Fridman (28:55.440)
25 minutes chess.
Garry Kasparov (28:56.560)
Because we didn't have enough time.
Lex Fridman (28:58.200)
If you play a longer match,
Garry Kasparov (29:00.040)
we will not make the same mistakes.
Lex Fridman (29:02.080)
Nonsense.
Lex Fridman (29:02.960)
So this, yeah, we had more time,
Lex Fridman (29:05.120)
but we still make mistakes.
Lex Fridman (29:06.160)
And machine also has more time.
Lex Fridman (29:07.600)
And machines, machine will always, you know,
Garry Kasparov (29:10.120)
will always be steady and consistent
Lex Fridman (29:13.080)
compared to humans instabilities and inconsistencies.
Lex Fridman (29:18.120)
And today we are at the point where yes,
Lex Fridman (29:20.800)
nobody talks about, you know,
Garry Kasparov (29:23.320)
humans playing as machines.
Lex Fridman (29:24.560)
Now machines can offer handicap to top players
Lex Fridman (29:27.600)
and still, you know, will, will, will be favored.
Lex Fridman (29:31.280)
I think we're just learning that it's, it's,
Garry Kasparov (29:33.320)
it's no longer human versus machines.
Lex Fridman (29:35.400)
It's about human working with machines.
Garry Kasparov (29:37.880)
That's what I recognized in 1998,
Lex Fridman (29:41.760)
just after leaking my wounds and spending one year
Garry Kasparov (29:44.000)
in just, you know, ruminating so the,
Lex Fridman (29:46.080)
so what's happened in this match.
Lex Fridman (29:48.400)
And I knew that though we still could play
Lex Fridman (29:50.840)
against the machines.
Garry Kasparov (29:51.680)
I had two more matches in, in 2003,
Lex Fridman (29:53.960)
playing both Deep Fritz and Deep Junior.
Garry Kasparov (29:56.640)
Both matches ended as a tie.
Lex Fridman (29:59.640)
Though these machines were not weaker,
Garry Kasparov (30:01.920)
at least actually probably stronger than Deep Blue.
Lex Fridman (30:05.000)
And by the way, today chess app on your mobile phone
Garry Kasparov (30:08.800)
is probably stronger than Deep Blue.
Lex Fridman (30:10.520)
I'm not speaking about chess engines
Garry Kasparov (30:12.440)
that are so much superior.
Lex Fridman (30:13.920)
And by the way, when you analyze games
Garry Kasparov (30:16.360)
we played against Deep Blue in 1997 on your chess engine,
Lex Fridman (30:19.240)
they'll be laughing.
Lex Fridman (30:20.600)
So this is, and it's also shows that's how chess changed
Lex Fridman (30:23.240)
because chess commentators, they look at some of our games
Garry Kasparov (30:26.760)
like game four, game five, brilliant idea.
Lex Fridman (30:29.360)
Now you ask Stockfish, you ask Houdini,
Garry Kasparov (30:35.200)
you ask Commodore, all the leading chess engines.
Lex Fridman (30:37.600)
Within 30 seconds, they will show you how many mistakes
Garry Kasparov (30:40.160)
both Gary and Deep Blue made in the game
Lex Fridman (30:43.880)
that was trumpeted as the, as a great chess match in 1997.
Garry Kasparov (30:50.920)
Well, okay.
Lex Fridman (30:51.760)
So you've made an interesting,
Garry Kasparov (30:54.000)
if you can untangle that comment.
Lex Fridman (30:56.400)
So now in retrospect, it was a mistake to see chess
Garry Kasparov (31:01.040)
as the peak of human intellect.
Lex Fridman (31:03.520)
Nevertheless, that was done for centuries.
Lex Fridman (31:06.640)
So by the way, in Europe, because you know,
Lex Fridman (31:10.320)
you move to the far East, they will go,
Garry Kasparov (31:13.240)
they had show games.
Lex Fridman (31:14.600)
But games, games.
Garry Kasparov (31:15.440)
Again, some of the games like, you know, board games.
Lex Fridman (31:20.040)
Yes.
Garry Kasparov (31:20.880)
Yeah, I agree.
Lex Fridman (31:22.000)
So if I push back a little bit, so now you say that,
Garry Kasparov (31:26.400)
okay, but it was a mistake to see chess as the epitome
Lex Fridman (31:29.200)
and now, and then now there's other things maybe
Garry Kasparov (31:32.280)
like language, that conversation,
Lex Fridman (31:34.880)
like some of the things that in your view
Garry Kasparov (31:36.840)
is still way out of reach of computers, but inside humans.
Lex Fridman (31:40.840)
Do you think, can you talk about what those things might be?
Lex Fridman (31:44.320)
And do you think just like chess, they might fall?
Lex Fridman (31:48.880)
Soon with the same set of approaches,
Garry Kasparov (31:51.000)
if you look at AlphaZero,
Lex Fridman (31:52.920)
the same kind of learning approaches
Garry Kasparov (31:55.240)
as the machines grow in size.
Lex Fridman (31:57.400)
No, no, it's not about growing in size.
Garry Kasparov (31:59.280)
It's about, again, it's about understanding the difference
Lex Fridman (32:02.360)
between closed system and open ended system.
Lex Fridman (32:05.240)
So you think that key difference,
Lex Fridman (32:06.880)
so the board games are closed in terms of the rule set,
Garry Kasparov (32:11.000)
the actions, the state space, everything is just constrained.
Lex Fridman (32:15.920)
You think once you open it, the machines are lost?
Garry Kasparov (32:19.800)
Not lost, but again, the effectiveness is very different
Lex Fridman (32:22.920)
because machine does not understand the moment
Garry Kasparov (32:25.600)
it's reaching territory of diminishing returns.
Lex Fridman (32:28.520)
It's the, to put it in a different way,
Garry Kasparov (32:32.480)
machine doesn't know how to ask right questions.
Lex Fridman (32:35.880)
It can ask questions, but it will never tell you
Garry Kasparov (32:38.200)
which questions are relevant.
Lex Fridman (32:39.440)
So there's the, it's like about the, it's the,
Garry Kasparov (32:41.200)
it's a direction.
Lex Fridman (32:42.360)
So these, it's, I think it's in human machine relations,
Garry Kasparov (32:45.080)
we have to consider, so our role and people,
Lex Fridman (32:48.320)
many people feel uncomfortable that this,
Garry Kasparov (32:50.280)
the territory that belongs to us is shrinking.
Lex Fridman (32:55.800)
I'm saying, so what, you know, this is,
Garry Kasparov (32:57.640)
eventually we'll belong to the last few decimal points,
Lex Fridman (33:00.720)
but it's like having, so a very powerful gun,
Garry Kasparov (33:05.480)
that's, and all you can do there is slightly,
Lex Fridman (33:09.840)
you know, alter direction of the bullet.
Garry Kasparov (33:11.640)
Maybe, you know, 0.1 degree of this angle,
Lex Fridman (33:16.160)
but that means a mile away, 10 meters of target.
Lex Fridman (33:21.080)
So that's, we have to recognize that is a certain
Lex Fridman (33:25.120)
unique human qualities that machines in a foreseeable future
Garry Kasparov (33:30.200)
will not be able to reproduce.
Lex Fridman (33:33.000)
And the effectiveness of this cooperation,
Garry Kasparov (33:35.880)
collaboration depends on our understanding
Lex Fridman (33:38.280)
what exactly we can bring into the game.
Lex Fridman (33:40.400)
So the greatest danger is when we try to interfere
Lex Fridman (33:43.840)
with machine superior knowledge.
Lex Fridman (33:45.600)
So that's why I always say that sometimes you'd rather have,
Lex Fridman (33:48.560)
by reading these pictures in radiology,
Garry Kasparov (33:51.640)
you may probably prefer an experienced nurse
Lex Fridman (33:55.440)
than rather than having top professor,
Garry Kasparov (33:57.640)
because she will not try to interfere
Lex Fridman (34:00.600)
with machines understanding.
Lex Fridman (34:02.200)
So it's very important to know that if machines knows
Lex Fridman (34:05.000)
how to do better things in 95%, 96% of territory,
Garry Kasparov (34:09.000)
we should not touch it because it's happened.
Lex Fridman (34:11.360)
It's like in chess, recognize they do it better.
Garry Kasparov (34:15.400)
See where we can make the difference.
Lex Fridman (34:17.160)
You mentioned AlphaZero, I mean, AlphaZero is,
Garry Kasparov (34:20.320)
it's actually a first step into what you may call AI,
Lex Fridman (34:24.200)
because everything that's being called AI today,
Garry Kasparov (34:26.800)
it's just, it's one or another variation
Lex Fridman (34:30.840)
of what Claude Shannon characterized as a brute force.
Garry Kasparov (34:34.000)
It's a type A machine, whether it's Deep Blue,
Lex Fridman (34:36.680)
whether it's Watson, and all these modern technologies
Garry Kasparov (34:41.480)
that are being trumpeted as AI, it's still brute force.
Lex Fridman (34:45.320)
It's the, all they do, it's they do optimization.
Garry Kasparov (34:48.760)
It's this, they are, you know, they keep, you know,
Lex Fridman (34:52.560)
improving the way to process human generated data.
Garry Kasparov (34:56.920)
Now, AlphaZero is the first step towards, you know,
Lex Fridman (35:02.000)
machine produced knowledge.
Garry Kasparov (35:04.840)
Which is, by the way, it's quite ironic
Lex Fridman (35:06.880)
that the first company that championed that was IBM.
Garry Kasparov (35:12.040)
Oh, it's in backgammon.
Lex Fridman (35:13.560)
Interesting, in backgammon.
Garry Kasparov (35:15.400)
Yes, you should look at IBM, it's a newer gammon.
Lex Fridman (35:19.640)
It's the scientist called Cesaro.
Garry Kasparov (35:22.040)
He's still working at IBM.
Lex Fridman (35:23.520)
They had it in the early 90s.
Garry Kasparov (35:25.520)
It's the program that played, you know, the AlphaZero type,
Lex Fridman (35:29.360)
so just trying to come up with own strategies.
Lex Fridman (35:31.720)
But because of success of Deep Blue,
Lex Fridman (35:34.360)
this project had been not abandoned,
Lex Fridman (35:36.720)
but just, you know, it was put on hold.
Lex Fridman (35:40.000)
And now we just, you know, it's, you know,
Garry Kasparov (35:42.520)
everybody talks about this,
Lex Fridman (35:44.520)
the machines generated knowledge, so as revolutionary.
Lex Fridman (35:48.480)
And it is, but there's still, you know,
Lex Fridman (35:51.400)
many open ended questions.
Garry Kasparov (35:54.120)
Yes, AlphaZero generates its own data.
Lex Fridman (35:58.160)
Many ideas that AlphaZero generated in chess
Garry Kasparov (36:00.800)
were quite intriguing.
Lex Fridman (36:02.200)
So I looked at these games with,
Garry Kasparov (36:06.040)
not just with interest, but with, you know,
Lex Fridman (36:08.160)
it was quite exciting to learn how machine
Garry Kasparov (36:11.360)
could actually, you know, juggle all the pieces
Lex Fridman (36:13.880)
and just play positions with a broken material balance,
Garry Kasparov (36:17.400)
sacrificing material, always being ahead of other programs,
Lex Fridman (36:20.480)
you know, one or two moves ahead
Garry Kasparov (36:22.040)
by foreseeing the consequences,
Lex Fridman (36:24.840)
not overcalculating because machines,
Garry Kasparov (36:27.440)
other machines were at least as powerful in calculating,
Lex Fridman (36:30.280)
but it's having this unique knowledge
Garry Kasparov (36:33.200)
based on discovered patterns after playing 60 million games.
Lex Fridman (36:37.240)
Almost something that feels like intuition.
Garry Kasparov (36:39.680)
Exactly, but there's one problem.
Lex Fridman (36:41.400)
Yeah.
Garry Kasparov (36:42.240)
Now, the simple question,
Lex Fridman (36:44.800)
if AlphaZero faces superior point,
Garry Kasparov (36:47.640)
let's say another powerful computer accompanied by a human
Lex Fridman (36:53.760)
who could help just to discover certain problems,
Garry Kasparov (36:56.240)
because I already, I look at many AlphaZero games.
Lex Fridman (36:58.720)
I visited their lab, you know,
Garry Kasparov (37:00.280)
spoke to Demis Hassabis and his team,
Lex Fridman (37:01.840)
and I know there's certain weaknesses there.
Garry Kasparov (37:04.200)
Now, if these weaknesses are exposed,
Lex Fridman (37:05.680)
the question is how many games will it take
Lex Fridman (37:07.680)
for AlphaZero to correct it?
Lex Fridman (37:09.560)
The answer is hundreds of thousands.
Garry Kasparov (37:11.560)
Even if it keeps losing, it can,
Lex Fridman (37:13.320)
it's just because the whole system is based.
Lex Fridman (37:16.400)
So it's now, imagine so this is,
Lex Fridman (37:19.160)
you can have a human by just making a few tweaks.
Lex Fridman (37:21.680)
So humans are still more flexible.
Lex Fridman (37:24.520)
And as long as we recognize what is our role,
Garry Kasparov (37:28.360)
where we can play sort of,
Lex Fridman (37:30.720)
so the most valuable part in this collaboration.
Lex Fridman (37:34.280)
So it's, it will help us to understand
Lex Fridman (37:36.960)
what are the next steps in human machine collaboration.
Garry Kasparov (37:40.440)
Beautifully put.
Lex Fridman (37:41.280)
So let's talk about the thing that machines
Garry Kasparov (37:43.240)
certainly don't know how to do yet, which is morality.
Lex Fridman (37:46.120)
Machines and morality.
Garry Kasparov (37:47.480)
It's another question that, you know,
Lex Fridman (37:48.760)
just it's being asked all the time these days.
Lex Fridman (37:51.560)
And I think it's another phantom
Lex Fridman (37:54.280)
that is haunting a general public
Garry Kasparov (37:57.320)
because it's just being fed with this,
Lex Fridman (37:59.280)
you know, illusions is that how can we avoid machines,
Lex Fridman (38:03.600)
you know, having bias, being prejudiced?
Lex Fridman (38:07.640)
You cannot, because it's like looking in the mirror
Lex Fridman (38:10.480)
and complaining about what you see.
Lex Fridman (38:12.080)
If you have certain bias in the society,
Garry Kasparov (38:14.760)
machine will just follow it.
Lex Fridman (38:17.440)
It's just, it's, you know, you look at the mirror,
Garry Kasparov (38:19.760)
you don't like what you see there.
Lex Fridman (38:20.960)
You can, you know, you can break it.
Garry Kasparov (38:23.680)
You can try to distort it.
Lex Fridman (38:25.480)
Or you can try to actually change something.
Garry Kasparov (38:27.960)
Just by yourself.
Lex Fridman (38:29.400)
By yourself, yes.
Lex Fridman (38:30.360)
So it's very important to understand
Lex Fridman (38:31.880)
is that you cannot expect machines
Garry Kasparov (38:33.640)
to improve the ills of our society.
Lex Fridman (38:37.280)
And moreover machines will simply, you know,
Garry Kasparov (38:39.680)
just, you know, amplify it.
Lex Fridman (38:41.240)
Yes. Yeah.
Lex Fridman (38:42.120)
But the thing is people are more comfortable
Lex Fridman (38:45.600)
with other people doing injustice, with being biased.
Garry Kasparov (38:50.600)
We're not comfortable with machines
Lex Fridman (38:52.440)
having the same kind of bias.
Lex Fridman (38:54.280)
So that's an interesting standard
Lex Fridman (38:58.040)
that we place on machines.
Garry Kasparov (38:59.320)
With autonomous vehicles, they have to be much safer.
Lex Fridman (39:01.960)
With automated systems.
Garry Kasparov (39:04.080)
Of course they're much safer.
Lex Fridman (39:05.200)
Statistically, they're much safer than.
Garry Kasparov (39:07.120)
It's not of course.
Lex Fridman (39:08.560)
Why would, it's not of course.
Garry Kasparov (39:10.720)
It's not given.
Lex Fridman (39:13.720)
Autonomous vehicles, you have to work really hard
Garry Kasparov (39:16.400)
to make them safer.
Lex Fridman (39:21.160)
I think it just, it goes without saying
Garry Kasparov (39:22.760)
is the outcome of this,
Lex Fridman (39:25.600)
I would call it competition with comparison is very clear.
Lex Fridman (39:29.040)
But the problem is not about being, you know, safer.
Lex Fridman (39:32.320)
It's the 40,000 people or so every year died
Garry Kasparov (39:36.200)
in car accidents in the United States.
Lex Fridman (39:38.280)
And it's statistics.
Garry Kasparov (39:40.120)
One accident with autonomous vehicle
Lex Fridman (39:42.680)
and it's front page of a newspaper.
Garry Kasparov (39:43.920)
Yes.
Lex Fridman (39:44.760)
So it's, again, it's about psychology.
Lex Fridman (39:47.240)
So it's while people, you know,
Lex Fridman (39:49.400)
kill each other in car accidents
Garry Kasparov (39:50.600)
because they make mistakes, they make more mistakes.
Lex Fridman (39:52.680)
For me, it's not a question.
Garry Kasparov (39:54.400)
Of course we make more mistakes because we're human.
Lex Fridman (39:57.040)
Yes, machines are old.
Lex Fridman (39:58.520)
And by the way, no machine will ever reach 100% perfection.
Lex Fridman (40:01.360)
That's another important fake story
Garry Kasparov (40:04.000)
that is being fed to the public.
Lex Fridman (40:05.840)
If machine doesn't reach 100% performance, it's not safe.
Garry Kasparov (40:09.040)
No, all you can ask any computer,
Lex Fridman (40:11.640)
whether it's, you know, playing chess
Garry Kasparov (40:13.560)
or doing the stock market calculations
Lex Fridman (40:16.280)
or driving your autonomous vehicle,
Garry Kasparov (40:18.640)
it's to make fewer mistakes.
Lex Fridman (40:21.200)
And yes, I know it's not, you know,
Garry Kasparov (40:23.160)
it's not easy for us to accept because ah,
Lex Fridman (40:25.600)
if, you know, if you have two humans, you know,
Garry Kasparov (40:28.200)
colliding in their cars, okay, it's like,
Lex Fridman (40:31.280)
if one of these cars is autonomous vehicle,
Lex Fridman (40:34.120)
and by the way, even if it's humans fault, terrible.
Lex Fridman (40:37.320)
How could you allow a machine to run
Lex Fridman (40:40.560)
without a driver at the wheel?
Lex Fridman (40:42.600)
So, you know, let's linger that for a second,
Garry Kasparov (40:45.160)
that double standard, the way you felt
Lex Fridman (40:48.040)
with your first loss against Deep Blue,
Garry Kasparov (40:51.560)
were you treating the machine differently
Lex Fridman (40:54.400)
than you would have a human?
Garry Kasparov (40:56.560)
Or, so what do you think about that difference
Lex Fridman (40:58.640)
between the way we see machines and humans?
Garry Kasparov (41:02.120)
No, it's the, at that time, you know, for me it was a match.
Lex Fridman (41:04.240)
And that's why I was angry because I believed that
Garry Kasparov (41:06.480)
the match was not, you know, fairly organized.
Lex Fridman (41:08.840)
So it's, definitely there were unfair advantages for IBM
Lex Fridman (41:12.960)
and I wanted to play another match, like a rubber match.
Lex Fridman (41:16.840)
So your anger or displeasure was aimed more like
Garry Kasparov (41:20.600)
at the humans behind IBM versus the actual pure algorithm.
Lex Fridman (41:24.520)
Absolutely, look, I knew at the time,
Lex Fridman (41:26.760)
and by the way, I was, objectively speaking,
Lex Fridman (41:29.040)
I was stronger at that time.
Lex Fridman (41:30.280)
So that probably added to my anger
Lex Fridman (41:32.480)
because I knew I could beat the machine.
Garry Kasparov (41:34.000)
Yeah. Yeah, so that's, and that's the,
Lex Fridman (41:35.560)
and as I lost, and I knew I was not well prepared.
Lex Fridman (41:38.040)
So because they, I have to give them credit.
Lex Fridman (41:39.920)
They did some good work from 1996 and I,
Lex Fridman (41:43.560)
but I still could beat the machine.
Lex Fridman (41:45.240)
So I made too many mistakes.
Garry Kasparov (41:47.000)
Also, this is the whole, it's this,
Lex Fridman (41:48.440)
the publicity around the match.
Lex Fridman (41:49.800)
So I underestimated the effect, you know, just it's,
Lex Fridman (41:53.160)
and being called the, you know, the brain's last stand,
Garry Kasparov (41:56.680)
you know, okay, no pressure.
Lex Fridman (42:02.160)
Okay, well, let me ask.
Lex Fridman (42:04.000)
So I was born also in the Soviet Union.
Lex Fridman (42:06.840)
What lessons do you draw from the rise and fall
Lex Fridman (42:09.240)
of the Soviet Union in the 20th century?
Lex Fridman (42:11.440)
When you just look at this nation
Garry Kasparov (42:15.240)
that is now pushing forward into what Russia is,
Lex Fridman (42:19.440)
if you look at the long arc of history of the 20th century,
Lex Fridman (42:22.920)
what do we take away?
Lex Fridman (42:27.000)
What do we take away from that?
Garry Kasparov (42:28.800)
I think the lesson of history is clear.
Lex Fridman (42:35.320)
Undemocratic systems, totalitarian regimes,
Garry Kasparov (42:38.560)
systems that are based on controlling their citizens
Lex Fridman (42:42.800)
and just every aspect of their life,
Garry Kasparov (42:46.000)
not offering opportunities to, for private initiative,
Lex Fridman (42:52.640)
central planning systems, they're doomed.
Garry Kasparov (42:55.080)
They just, you know, they cannot be driving force
Lex Fridman (42:59.480)
for innovation, so they, in the history timeline,
Garry Kasparov (43:02.560)
I mean, they could cause certain, you know,
Lex Fridman (43:06.200)
distortion of the concept of progress.
Garry Kasparov (43:11.360)
They, by the way, they may call themselves progressive,
Lex Fridman (43:13.200)
but we know that the damage that they caused to humanity
Garry Kasparov (43:17.240)
is just, it's yet to be measured.
Lex Fridman (43:19.760)
But at the end of the day, they fail.
Garry Kasparov (43:22.200)
They fail, and the end of the Cold War was a great triumph
Lex Fridman (43:26.640)
of the free world.
Garry Kasparov (43:28.320)
It's not that the free world is perfect.
Lex Fridman (43:30.080)
It's very important to recognize the fact that,
Garry Kasparov (43:32.840)
I always like to mention, you know,
Lex Fridman (43:34.280)
one of my favorite books, The Lord of the Rings,
Garry Kasparov (43:36.560)
that there's no absolute good, but there is an absolute evil.
Lex Fridman (43:42.080)
Good, you know, comes in many forms,
Lex Fridman (43:43.960)
but we all, you know, it's being humans
Lex Fridman (43:47.200)
or being even, you know, humans from fairy tales
Garry Kasparov (43:49.640)
or just some sort of mythical creatures.
Lex Fridman (43:52.160)
It's the, you can always find spots on the songs.
Lex Fridman (43:57.480)
So this is conducting war and just,
Lex Fridman (44:01.280)
and fighting for justice.
Garry Kasparov (44:03.280)
There are always things that, you know,
Lex Fridman (44:04.800)
can be easily criticized.
Lex Fridman (44:06.440)
And human history is the,
Lex Fridman (44:08.120)
is a never ending quest for perfection.
Lex Fridman (44:11.000)
But we know that there is absolute evil.
Lex Fridman (44:13.200)
We know it's, for me, it's no clear, it's, I mean,
Garry Kasparov (44:16.120)
nobody argues about Hitler being absolute evil,
Lex Fridman (44:18.680)
but I think it's very important to recognize
Garry Kasparov (44:19.840)
Stalin was absolute evil.
Lex Fridman (44:21.240)
Communism caused more damage
Garry Kasparov (44:23.280)
than any other ideology in the 20th century.
Lex Fridman (44:26.360)
And unfortunately, while we all know
Garry Kasparov (44:28.400)
that fascism was condemned,
Lex Fridman (44:30.400)
but there was no Nuremberg for communism.
Lex Fridman (44:32.160)
And that's why we could see, you know,
Lex Fridman (44:33.600)
still the successors of Stalin
Garry Kasparov (44:36.840)
are feeling far more comfortable.
Lex Fridman (44:39.080)
And Putin is one of them.
Garry Kasparov (44:40.880)
You highlight a few interesting connections actually
Lex Fridman (44:43.280)
between Stalin and Hitler.
Garry Kasparov (44:45.040)
I mean, in terms of the adjusting
Lex Fridman (44:49.520)
or clarifying the history of World War II,
Garry Kasparov (44:53.240)
which is very interesting.
Lex Fridman (44:54.080)
Of course, we don't have time.
Lex Fridman (44:55.320)
So let me ask.
Lex Fridman (44:56.160)
You can ask, you know,
Garry Kasparov (44:57.000)
I just recently delivered a speech in Toronto
Lex Fridman (44:59.960)
at 80th anniversary of Molotov Ribbentrop Pact.
Garry Kasparov (45:02.400)
It's something that I believe, you know,
Lex Fridman (45:03.880)
just, you know, has, must be taught in the schools
Garry Kasparov (45:07.040)
that the World War II had been started by two dictators
Lex Fridman (45:11.560)
by signing these criminal treaty,
Garry Kasparov (45:15.440)
collusion of two tyrants in August 1939
Lex Fridman (45:19.160)
that led to the beginning of the World War II.
Lex Fridman (45:21.280)
And the fact is that eventually Stalin had no choice
Lex Fridman (45:24.200)
but to join allies because Hitler attacked him.
Lex Fridman (45:27.600)
So it just doesn't, you know,
Lex Fridman (45:29.960)
eliminate the fact that Stalin helped Hitler
Garry Kasparov (45:33.320)
to start World War II.
Lex Fridman (45:34.360)
And he was one of the beneficiaries at early stage
Garry Kasparov (45:37.840)
by annexing a part of Eastern Europe.
Lex Fridman (45:40.480)
And as a result of the World War II,
Garry Kasparov (45:42.080)
he annexed almost entire Eastern Europe.
Lex Fridman (45:44.560)
And for many Eastern European nations,
Garry Kasparov (45:46.440)
the end of the World War II
Lex Fridman (45:47.760)
was the beginning of communist occupation.
Lex Fridman (45:50.520)
So Putin, you've talked about as a man who stands
Lex Fridman (45:56.560)
between Russia and democracy, essentially today.
Garry Kasparov (46:00.440)
You've been a strong opponent and critic of Putin.
Lex Fridman (46:04.280)
Let me ask again, how much does fear
Lex Fridman (46:07.840)
enter your mind and heart?
Lex Fridman (46:09.320)
So in 2007, there's this interesting comment
Garry Kasparov (46:12.720)
from Oleg Kalugin, KGB general.
Lex Fridman (46:17.960)
He said that I do not talk details.
Garry Kasparov (46:19.840)
People who knew them are all dead now
Lex Fridman (46:21.880)
because they were vocal.
Garry Kasparov (46:23.800)
I'm quiet.
Lex Fridman (46:25.000)
There's only one man who's vocal and he may be in trouble.
Garry Kasparov (46:28.480)
World Chess champion Kasparov.
Lex Fridman (46:30.680)
He has been very outspoken in his attacks on Putin.
Lex Fridman (46:33.640)
And I believe he's probably next on the list.
Lex Fridman (46:36.320)
So clearly your life has been
Lex Fridman (46:38.840)
and perhaps continues to be in danger.
Lex Fridman (46:40.920)
How do you think about having the views you have,
Garry Kasparov (46:45.520)
the ideas you have, being in opposition as you are
Lex Fridman (46:49.960)
in this kind of context when your life could be in danger?
Garry Kasparov (46:55.720)
That's the reason I live in New York.
Lex Fridman (46:58.080)
So it was not my first choice,
Lex Fridman (47:00.200)
but I knew I had to leave Russia at one point.
Lex Fridman (47:01.960)
And among other places, New York is the safest.
Lex Fridman (47:05.480)
Is it safe?
Lex Fridman (47:07.040)
No.
Garry Kasparov (47:07.880)
It's the, I know what happened,
Lex Fridman (47:11.280)
what is happening with many of Putin's enemies.
Lex Fridman (47:14.720)
But at the end of the day, I mean, what can I do?
Lex Fridman (47:18.720)
I could be very proactive
Garry Kasparov (47:21.600)
by trying to change things I can influence.
Lex Fridman (47:24.560)
But here are a few facts.
Garry Kasparov (47:26.360)
I cannot stop doing what I've been doing for a long time.
Lex Fridman (47:30.560)
It's the right thing to do.
Garry Kasparov (47:32.480)
I grew up with my family teaching me
Lex Fridman (47:36.280)
sort of the wisdom of Soviet dissidents,
Garry Kasparov (47:38.080)
do what you must and so be.
Lex Fridman (47:41.680)
I could try to be cautious by not traveling
Garry Kasparov (47:44.920)
to certain places where my security could be at risk.
Lex Fridman (47:49.600)
There are so many invitations to speak
Garry Kasparov (47:51.200)
at different locations in the world.
Lex Fridman (47:52.640)
And I have to say that many countries are just now
Garry Kasparov (47:57.440)
are not destinations that I can afford to travel.
Lex Fridman (48:01.320)
My mother still lives in Moscow.
Garry Kasparov (48:02.680)
I meet her a few times a year.
Lex Fridman (48:04.320)
She was devastated when I had to leave Russia
Garry Kasparov (48:07.320)
because since my father died in 1971,
Lex Fridman (48:10.560)
so she was 33 and she dedicated her entire life
Garry Kasparov (48:14.080)
to her only son.
Lex Fridman (48:15.640)
But she recognized in just a year or so
Garry Kasparov (48:19.480)
since I left Russia that it was the only chance
Lex Fridman (48:22.120)
for me to continue my normal life.
Lex Fridman (48:25.880)
So just to, I mean, to be relatively safe
Lex Fridman (48:29.560)
and to do what she taught me to do to make the difference.
Lex Fridman (48:35.880)
Do you think you will ever return to Russia
Lex Fridman (48:37.880)
or let me ask a different way?
Lex Fridman (48:39.360)
When?
Lex Fridman (48:40.200)
Even sooner than many people think
Garry Kasparov (48:41.640)
because I think Putin's regime
Lex Fridman (48:43.080)
is facing unsurmountable difficulties.
Lex Fridman (48:46.640)
And again, I read enough historical books
Lex Fridman (48:49.400)
to know that dictatorships, they end suddenly.
Garry Kasparov (48:54.400)
It's just on Sunday, dictator feels comfortable.
Lex Fridman (49:01.120)
He believes he's popular on Monday morning, he's bust.
Garry Kasparov (49:05.960)
The good news and bad news.
Lex Fridman (49:07.120)
I mean, the bad news is that I don't know
Garry Kasparov (49:09.720)
when and how Putin rule ends.
Lex Fridman (49:13.040)
The good news, he also doesn't know.
Garry Kasparov (49:14.840)
Okay, well put.
Lex Fridman (49:19.280)
Let me ask a question that seems to preoccupy
Garry Kasparov (49:24.880)
the American mind from the perspective of Russia.
Lex Fridman (49:28.920)
One, did Russia interfere in the 2016 U.S. election,
Lex Fridman (49:33.960)
government sanction and future?
Lex Fridman (49:37.920)
Two, will Russia interfere in the 2020 U.S. election?
Lex Fridman (49:42.880)
And what does that interference look like?
Lex Fridman (49:45.840)
It's very old.
Garry Kasparov (49:46.680)
We had such an intelligent conversation.
Lex Fridman (49:48.480)
And you are ruining everything
Garry Kasparov (49:51.880)
by asking such a stupid question.
Lex Fridman (49:53.720)
It's insulting for my intellect.
Garry Kasparov (50:01.120)
Of course they did interfere.
Lex Fridman (50:03.480)
Of course they did absolutely everything to elect Trump.
Garry Kasparov (50:05.720)
I mean, they said it many times.
Lex Fridman (50:07.400)
It is just, you know, I met enough KGB colonels in my life
Garry Kasparov (50:11.320)
to tell you that, you know,
Lex Fridman (50:12.680)
just the way Putin looks at Trump, this is the way.
Garry Kasparov (50:16.160)
Look, and I don't have to hear what he says,
Lex Fridman (50:18.600)
what Trump says, it just is,
Garry Kasparov (50:20.360)
I don't need to go through congressional investigations.
Lex Fridman (50:23.040)
The way Putin looks at Trump
Garry Kasparov (50:24.800)
is the way the KGB officers looked at the assets.
Lex Fridman (50:28.440)
It's just, and following to 2020,
Garry Kasparov (50:31.480)
of course they will do absolutely everything
Lex Fridman (50:33.160)
to help Trump to survive.
Garry Kasparov (50:35.160)
Because I think the damage that Trump's reelections
Lex Fridman (50:37.880)
could cause to America and to the free world,
Garry Kasparov (50:40.320)
it's just, it's beyond one's imagination.
Lex Fridman (50:42.760)
I think basically if Trump is reelected,
Garry Kasparov (50:44.520)
he will ruin NATO, because he's already heading
Lex Fridman (50:47.040)
in this direction, but now he's just,
Garry Kasparov (50:49.400)
he's still limited by the reelection hurdles.
Lex Fridman (50:56.920)
If he's still in the office after November, 2020,
Garry Kasparov (51:01.480)
okay, January, 2021, I don't want to think about it.
Lex Fridman (51:05.960)
My problem is not just Trump,
Garry Kasparov (51:07.320)
because Trump is basically, it's a symptom.
Lex Fridman (51:09.520)
But the problem is that I don't see,
Garry Kasparov (51:11.960)
it's just, it's the, in American political horizon,
Lex Fridman (51:18.000)
politicians who could take on Trump
Garry Kasparov (51:22.040)
for all damage that he's doing for the free world.
Lex Fridman (51:25.960)
Not just things that has happened
Garry Kasparov (51:27.400)
that went wrong in America.
Lex Fridman (51:28.800)
So there's the, it seems to me that the campaign,
Garry Kasparov (51:30.920)
political campaign on the Democratic side
Lex Fridman (51:32.680)
is fixed on certain important, but still secondary issues.
Garry Kasparov (51:37.800)
Because when you have the foundation of the republic
Lex Fridman (51:40.560)
in jeopardy, I mean, you cannot talk about healthcare.
Garry Kasparov (51:44.080)
I mean, I understand how important it is,
Lex Fridman (51:45.920)
but it's still secondary because the entire framework
Garry Kasparov (51:48.680)
of American political life is at risk.
Lex Fridman (51:50.680)
And you have Vladimir Putin just,
Garry Kasparov (51:53.320)
it's having, fortunately, free hands
Lex Fridman (51:56.160)
by attacking America and other free countries.
Lex Fridman (52:00.600)
And by the way, we have so much evidence
Lex Fridman (52:02.440)
about Russian interference in Brexit,
Garry Kasparov (52:04.400)
in elections in almost every European country.
Lex Fridman (52:07.280)
And thinking that they will be shy of attacking America
Garry Kasparov (52:11.080)
in 2020, now with Trump in the office, yeah.
Lex Fridman (52:15.520)
I think it's, yeah, it definitely diminishes
Garry Kasparov (52:19.120)
the intellectual quality of our conversation.
Lex Fridman (52:21.360)
I do what I can.
Garry Kasparov (52:24.800)
Last question.
Lex Fridman (52:26.000)
If you can go back, just look at the entirety of your life,
Garry Kasparov (52:28.920)
you accomplished more than most humans will ever do.
Lex Fridman (52:33.400)
If you could go back and relive a single moment
Lex Fridman (52:35.640)
in your life, what would that moment be?
Lex Fridman (52:43.400)
There are moments in my life when I think
Garry Kasparov (52:46.280)
about what could be done differently, but.
Lex Fridman (52:52.160)
No, experience happiness and joy and pride.
Garry Kasparov (52:56.680)
Just a touch once again.
Lex Fridman (52:58.520)
I know, I know, but it's the, it's the,
Garry Kasparov (53:00.280)
I made many mistakes in my life.
Lex Fridman (53:01.760)
So I just, it's the, I know that at the end of the day,
Garry Kasparov (53:05.480)
it's, I believe in the butterfly effect.
Lex Fridman (53:07.520)
So it's the, it's the, I knew moments where I could,
Garry Kasparov (53:11.560)
now if I'm there at that point in 89 and 93,
Lex Fridman (53:16.760)
you pick up a year, I could improve my actions
Garry Kasparov (53:20.840)
by not doing this stupid thing.
Lex Fridman (53:25.000)
But then how do you know
Lex Fridman (53:26.040)
that I will have all other accomplishments?
Lex Fridman (53:27.880)
I just, I'm, I'm afraid that, you know,
Garry Kasparov (53:31.640)
we just have to just follow this,
Lex Fridman (53:34.840)
if you may call wisdom before is gump, you know,
Garry Kasparov (53:36.720)
it's the life is this, you know, it's, this is,
Lex Fridman (53:38.800)
it's a box of, of, of, of chocolate
Lex Fridman (53:41.520)
and you don't know what's inside,
Lex Fridman (53:42.760)
but you have to go one by one.
Lex Fridman (53:44.600)
So it's the, I'm, I'm happy with who I am
Lex Fridman (53:47.800)
and where I am today.
Lex Fridman (53:49.000)
And I am very proud, not only with my chess accomplishments,
Lex Fridman (53:52.920)
but that I made this transition.
Lex Fridman (53:54.880)
And since I left chess, you know,
Lex Fridman (53:56.520)
I built my own reputation that had some influence
Garry Kasparov (54:00.200)
on the game of chess, but not, it's not, you know,
Lex Fridman (54:03.240)
directly derived from, from, from the game.
Garry Kasparov (54:06.640)
I'm grateful for my wife.
Lex Fridman (54:08.160)
So help me to build this life.
Garry Kasparov (54:10.200)
We actually married in 2005.
Lex Fridman (54:11.600)
It was my third marriage.
Garry Kasparov (54:12.600)
That's why I said I'd made mistakes in my life.
Lex Fridman (54:14.200)
But, and by the way, I'm close with two kids
Garry Kasparov (54:17.200)
from my previous marriages.
Lex Fridman (54:18.480)
So that's, that's the, I'm, you know,
Garry Kasparov (54:20.240)
I managed to sort of to balance my life and,
Lex Fridman (54:23.800)
and here in, I live in New York.
Lex Fridman (54:25.120)
So we have our two kids born here in New York.
Lex Fridman (54:28.040)
It's, it's new life and it's, you know, it's, it's busy.
Garry Kasparov (54:31.640)
Sometimes I wish I could, you know, I could limit
Lex Fridman (54:33.760)
my engagement in many other things that are still,
Garry Kasparov (54:37.520)
you know, taking time and energy,
Lex Fridman (54:42.120)
but life is exciting.
Lex Fridman (54:44.880)
And as long as I can feel that I have energy,
Lex Fridman (54:48.760)
I have strengths, I have passion to make the difference,
Garry Kasparov (54:54.640)
I'm happy.
Lex Fridman (54:56.760)
I think that's a beautiful moment to end on.
Garry Kasparov (54:59.400)
Gary, thank you very much for talking today.
Lex Fridman (55:02.520)
Thank you.
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