Dan Reynolds: Imagine Dragons - Lex Fridman 知识图谱

Lex Fridman (01:40.280)

This is the Lex Friedman podcast.

Dan Reynolds (01:42.100)

To support it, please check out our sponsors

Lex Fridman (01:44.260)

in the description.

Lex Fridman (01:45.460)

And now, dear friends, here's Dan Reynolds.

Lex Fridman (01:48.700)

So, we were talking offline

Dan Reynolds (01:51.060)

that you're not just getting into programming.

Lex Fridman (01:53.300)

What's the most beautiful program you've ever written?

Lex Fridman (01:57.440)

Something that brought you joy?

Lex Fridman (02:01.100)

There's something, I really love completion.

Dan Reynolds (02:04.540)

It's the reason that I'm addicted to songwriting.

Lex Fridman (02:07.180)

I like there being nothing and then having some blocks

Dan Reynolds (02:11.140)

or tools and building them into what you want it

Lex Fridman (02:14.620)

to look like and then I find it incredibly rewarding

Dan Reynolds (02:18.540)

to stand back and look at what you did at the end.

Lex Fridman (02:23.260)

It could be anything.

Dan Reynolds (02:24.140)

For me, it was as simple to begin with

Lex Fridman (02:27.500)

as just because it's object oriented,

Dan Reynolds (02:30.860)

like making a cube move.

Lex Fridman (02:33.940)

As simple as that, understanding that

Lex Fridman (02:36.040)

and knowing that I built that and made it do that

Lex Fridman (02:39.420)

is really rewarding and I think it's the thing

Dan Reynolds (02:43.020)

that drew me into wanting to learn more.

Lex Fridman (02:46.580)

But as far as what is some big piece of code

Dan Reynolds (02:52.020)

that I've done, absolutely not.

Lex Fridman (02:54.220)

I'm still at a level where it's more like

Lex Fridman (02:55.540)

what is a tutorial that I followed and got,

Lex Fridman (02:59.580)

and then, yeah, so I couldn't say I'm at a level

Dan Reynolds (03:03.700)

where I've done anything beautiful at all in code.

Lex Fridman (03:06.060)

But you're also interested in potentially,

Dan Reynolds (03:08.740)

like your heart is drawn to creating games.

Lex Fridman (03:12.300)

Creating anything.

Lex Fridman (03:14.260)

And completing it.

Lex Fridman (03:15.460)

Yeah.

Dan Reynolds (03:16.300)

To feel good as it's done.

Lex Fridman (03:18.660)

Yeah, I mean, I've been working over the last two years

Dan Reynolds (03:23.140)

with actually a team out of Kiev on,

Lex Fridman (03:27.020)

and we can get into that, it's a whole other story,

Lex Fridman (03:28.900)

but on a computer game.

Lex Fridman (03:30.620)

And really, I've kept that kind of under wraps,

Lex Fridman (03:34.020)

but yeah, we're kind of getting to a point now

Lex Fridman (03:37.320)

where we have a prototype that we can play

Lex Fridman (03:39.460)

and it's a lot of fun and thankfully,

Lex Fridman (03:42.380)

all the team members are in safe places now.

Dan Reynolds (03:45.340)

Things have obviously been on hold for a little bit,

Lex Fridman (03:47.020)

but when that started is when I really decided,

Dan Reynolds (03:50.500)

okay, I need to understand base level coding in C Sharp,

Lex Fridman (03:53.980)

so I'm not an idiot talking to these people.

Lex Fridman (03:56.780)

And so it's, yeah, we've been doing that

Lex Fridman (03:58.540)

for a couple of years.

Dan Reynolds (03:59.380)

Is there any parallels between the final completion

Lex Fridman (04:02.780)

that you feel with programming?

Dan Reynolds (04:05.020)

Which I think is a little bit more definitive.

Lex Fridman (04:07.100)

Like there's debugging, the code doesn't work,

Dan Reynolds (04:08.940)

it's messy and so on.

Lex Fridman (04:09.980)

There's the early design stages,

Dan Reynolds (04:11.460)

you're not sure how to have functions and classes,

Lex Fridman (04:14.340)

how it's all gonna work.

Lex Fridman (04:15.180)

And then it comes together and it's really done

Lex Fridman (04:17.820)

because it works and there's a cube moving on the screen.

Lex Fridman (04:21.180)

Is there any parallels between that and music?

Lex Fridman (04:23.940)

Because are you really ever done done with a song?

Dan Reynolds (04:27.980)

It's exactly the same thing for me,

Lex Fridman (04:30.940)

just in that it's art.

Dan Reynolds (04:33.460)

I really believe that we have not fully encapsulated artists.

Lex Fridman (04:39.660)

Like when we say art, I think most people think,

Dan Reynolds (04:42.940)

okay, the medium must be painting or drawing

Lex Fridman (04:46.700)

or music or writing.

Lex Fridman (04:50.300)

But I really believe anytime you're creating some things,

Lex Fridman (04:53.580)

engineers, for instance, you're creating something

Dan Reynolds (04:58.140)

with tools that you have and it can be incredibly beautiful.

Lex Fridman (05:03.340)

And so yeah, I think, and it's never done.

Dan Reynolds (05:07.780)

I feel like I look at songs that I've done

Lex Fridman (05:09.700)

and I never felt you have to let go or I have to let go.

Lex Fridman (05:15.620)

And that's all I've,

Lex Fridman (05:16.460)

I'm just continually making myself let go.

Lex Fridman (05:18.940)

But I look at songs that I've done

Lex Fridman (05:20.220)

and wish I had done more or kept going down that road

Lex Fridman (05:25.500)

and what would have happened.

Lex Fridman (05:26.660)

And I'm really contained to, because of what our band is

Lex Fridman (05:30.500)

and what our fans expect and there's so much more to it

Lex Fridman (05:34.140)

that it's like I'm fitting in a box always.

Lex Fridman (05:38.300)

And it's like, this song shouldn't be longer

Lex Fridman (05:41.100)

than three minutes and 30 seconds.

Lex Fridman (05:42.500)

And I don't know if I remember the chorus after I heard it.

Lex Fridman (05:46.100)

Maybe I need to hear the chorus three times

Dan Reynolds (05:47.980)

instead of those two times.

Lex Fridman (05:49.140)

It's like, there's certain, especially in pop music,

Dan Reynolds (05:52.820)

it's really hard to,

Lex Fridman (05:59.660)

yeah, it feels like there's confines,

Dan Reynolds (06:02.340)

even though people are like, well, there's no confines,

Lex Fridman (06:03.940)

but still everybody's writing a pop song

Dan Reynolds (06:05.620)

that's a few minutes.

Lex Fridman (06:06.940)

And are those explicit in your mind

Dan Reynolds (06:08.740)

or are they just kinda, the gut is, like you said, chorus.

Lex Fridman (06:12.820)

Should you have chorus once, twice or three times?

Lex Fridman (06:15.380)

Is that a gut thing or is that a rule thing?

Lex Fridman (06:17.500)

You know, I think it's a rule.

Dan Reynolds (06:18.940)

I mean, it's obviously a rule I impose on myself.

Lex Fridman (06:20.900)

Nobody's in my house saying, hey, Dan,

Dan Reynolds (06:24.800)

if you don't do this, I'm gonna punish you.

Lex Fridman (06:26.780)

There's no major label president that's like,

Dan Reynolds (06:29.780)

Imagine Dragons needs to make pop music, Dan.

Lex Fridman (06:32.480)

You know what I mean?

Dan Reynolds (06:33.320)

My manager doesn't even tell me that.

Lex Fridman (06:35.180)

I do it because it's what I perceive to be enjoyable.

Dan Reynolds (06:40.660)

I grew up listening to a ton of pop music,

Lex Fridman (06:43.620)

and then I ended up being in what is quote, unquote,

Dan Reynolds (06:46.660)

a rock band, which I've never perceived it as that,

Lex Fridman (06:49.580)

but that's kinda what the world has called it,

Lex Fridman (06:53.340)

and that's fine, but.

Lex Fridman (06:56.060)

So you're a prisoner of a prison

Dan Reynolds (06:58.660)

that you yourself constructed.

Lex Fridman (07:00.660)

There you go.

Dan Reynolds (07:01.500)

Well, I'm a happy, I guess what I'm trying to say

Lex Fridman (07:04.580)

is I'm a happy prisoner of the prison

Dan Reynolds (07:06.780)

that I have created for myself,

Lex Fridman (07:08.460)

and I made that prison thinking that it was a mansion.

Lex Fridman (07:11.260)

So you worked with Rick Rubin.

Lex Fridman (07:12.540)

What does Rick think about your prison?

Dan Reynolds (07:16.260)

Rick was, you know, it was interesting to hear

Lex Fridman (07:22.420)

his outside opinion when we first met,

Dan Reynolds (07:25.220)

because my biggest focus for so much of my life,

Lex Fridman (07:30.220)

my biggest fear was, and this stems from, I think,

Dan Reynolds (07:34.820)

middle schools when it started,

Lex Fridman (07:36.060)

but everyone being in on a joke except for yourself.

Dan Reynolds (07:40.740)

I really, like, the thought of thinking

Lex Fridman (07:44.340)

you're good at something, and really, you're terrible at it,

Lex Fridman (07:47.840)

and you're surrounded by people who are saying,

Lex Fridman (07:49.340)

yeah, you're good at it, and then by themselves,

Dan Reynolds (07:50.940)

they're like, he's terrible at this.

Lex Fridman (07:53.100)

Just kind of, and not just in regards to music or art,

Lex Fridman (07:56.580)

but anything in life, and I think maybe

Lex Fridman (07:59.020)

from having six older brothers, it stems from that too,

Dan Reynolds (08:02.180)

like, always feeling inadequate,

Lex Fridman (08:05.420)

and like, the annoying younger brother, you know?

Lex Fridman (08:10.060)

But anyway, so Rick's, and that's something

Lex Fridman (08:12.800)

I've learned to let go of as I've gotten older

Lex Fridman (08:14.460)

and had life experiences, but one of the things

Lex Fridman (08:18.780)

that Rick said really early on that has stuck with me

Dan Reynolds (08:21.840)

was he said, yeah, you know, we're resuming

Lex Fridman (08:25.000)

the first time we met.

Dan Reynolds (08:26.340)

He said, I'd really like to work with you

Lex Fridman (08:27.860)

because I feel like you're not confined to a sound.

Dan Reynolds (08:33.900)

You've done a lot of different sounds,

Lex Fridman (08:36.060)

and so it's exciting because I feel like your fans

Dan Reynolds (08:38.100)

are forgiving more than other rock bands or bands,

Lex Fridman (08:41.380)

because most people, when they hear a band,

Dan Reynolds (08:45.620)

it's like, there's a very specific sound with it.

Lex Fridman (08:47.780)

It's like, they do folk music, or they do, like,

Dan Reynolds (08:50.700)

California rock, or they do surf, or they do, you know,

Lex Fridman (08:55.580)

like, there's, and your fans kind of want that.

Dan Reynolds (08:59.500)

Like, they want them to do that thing,

Lex Fridman (09:01.580)

and then they don't do it, and sometimes that goes well,

Lex Fridman (09:04.300)

but a lot of times it doesn't, and people, you know,

Lex Fridman (09:07.180)

critics and everybody is like, go back to the thing

Dan Reynolds (09:09.300)

that you did good and do that.

Lex Fridman (09:12.680)

Rick was, felt, whether he was right or wrong,

Dan Reynolds (09:17.260)

that we could do, we hopped genres so much,

Lex Fridman (09:22.260)

and that's been to our benefit and detriment, I think.

Lex Fridman (09:27.380)

Why detriment?

Lex Fridman (09:29.420)

Because people want you to be something.

Dan Reynolds (09:32.660)

It's more, you can believe it more.

Lex Fridman (09:35.500)

I, you know, it's like.

Dan Reynolds (09:38.380)

It's more authentic if you never change.

Lex Fridman (09:40.540)

I guess, I don't know.

Dan Reynolds (09:42.100)

I mean, certainly it's not something I subscribe to

Lex Fridman (09:44.900)

because I create music, but I also grew up listening

Dan Reynolds (09:47.980)

to a lot of different genres, like, cats,

Lex Fridman (09:50.820)

I would listen to, like, Cat Stevens,

Lex Fridman (09:53.460)

and the next song would be, like, Biggie,

Lex Fridman (09:55.540)

and then the next song would be Nirvana,

Lex Fridman (09:58.140)

and it was like, I like a lot of,

Lex Fridman (10:00.740)

and then Billy Joel, and then Enya.

Lex Fridman (10:03.460)

It was like, you know what I mean?

Lex Fridman (10:04.420)

I was a product, and I was a product of the 90s,

Dan Reynolds (10:07.180)

which, if you listen to 90s music, it really was all,

Lex Fridman (10:09.900)

a lot of reason that people say, well, 90s were terrible.

Dan Reynolds (10:12.580)

Like, a lot of people say that.

Lex Fridman (10:14.140)

I love the 90s, they were my favorite decade of music.

Dan Reynolds (10:16.780)

It was, there was a lot of genre hopping,

Lex Fridman (10:22.020)

and I don't know, I love that.

Dan Reynolds (10:24.940)

She had the, 90s had the boy bands,

Lex Fridman (10:27.740)

and it had Pearl Jam, and Nirvana.

Lex Fridman (10:30.780)

And it had a lot of, like, women of the 90s

Lex Fridman (10:34.020)

was probably, is probably my biggest influence,

Dan Reynolds (10:36.660)

like, kind of that, like, angry rock women of the 90s,

Lex Fridman (10:41.060)

like, Lannis Morissette, Jagged Little Pills,

Dan Reynolds (10:43.220)

one of my favorite records of all time.

Lex Fridman (10:45.420)

The lyrics were so intimate,

Lex Fridman (10:48.180)

and I don't know if she was angry or not.

Lex Fridman (10:52.260)

Sorry, if she wasn't.

Dan Reynolds (10:54.140)

Yeah, but there was an anger to it.

Lex Fridman (10:55.540)

There was angst, yeah, it was like angstiness.

Lex Fridman (10:57.700)

And that in hip hop of the 90s influences me,

Lex Fridman (11:01.820)

and then my dad.

Dan Reynolds (11:02.820)

So, anything my dad listened to,

Lex Fridman (11:04.140)

which my dad didn't listen to any of that.

Dan Reynolds (11:05.540)

My dad listened to, like, Harry Nelson and the Beatles,

Lex Fridman (11:08.420)

Cat Stevens, Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, Billy Joel.

Dan Reynolds (11:13.420)

It was very much like singer, songwriter.

Lex Fridman (11:15.900)

Do you mind if we, throughout this,

Lex Fridman (11:17.460)

listen to a few songs?

Lex Fridman (11:18.300)

Because you mentioned Harry Nelson,

Lex Fridman (11:19.380)

and I was actually, yesterday and the day before,

Lex Fridman (11:23.660)

listening to a lot of his stuff,

Lex Fridman (11:24.820)

and it's just like, damn, he's good.

Lex Fridman (11:28.560)

And not as known as he should be.

Lex Fridman (11:33.140)

Like, I was getting, do you mind if I play?

Lex Fridman (11:35.980)

No, please, yeah.

Dan Reynolds (11:37.140)

I don't know, not to open this conversation

Lex Fridman (11:41.420)

to the love song.

Dan Reynolds (11:43.460)

I would like that, actually, Lex.

Lex Fridman (11:46.780)

But Without You is an incredible song.

Dan Reynolds (11:49.740)

Oh, man, that's, yeah.

Lex Fridman (11:52.820)

And the heartbreak and the longing.

Dan Reynolds (11:57.940)

No, I can't forget the feeling of your face.

Lex Fridman (12:02.740)

He's the best to do it, in my opinion.

Dan Reynolds (12:04.940)

In my opinion, he's the best to do it.

Lex Fridman (12:06.260)

But I guess that's just the way the story goes.

Lex Fridman (12:10.900)

And just the sadness of, like,

Lex Fridman (12:17.780)

there's something, I don't even wanna talk over him,

Dan Reynolds (12:21.300)

because this is one of my favorite songs, too,

Lex Fridman (12:23.100)

but I think people have a really good bullshit indicator.

Lex Fridman (12:30.020)

And music, in my opinion,

Lex Fridman (12:34.940)

whenever I meet a young artist and say,

Dan Reynolds (12:36.540)

well, I'm trying to make a new band,

Lex Fridman (12:38.380)

and I wanna do something like how to be successful,

Dan Reynolds (12:40.900)

I really think understanding

Lex Fridman (12:44.340)

that people have a really good bullshit indicator

Dan Reynolds (12:47.460)

is the most important part of being an artist.

Lex Fridman (12:50.920)

And I'll explain what that means, at least to me.

Dan Reynolds (12:55.340)

I think that in order to have success

Lex Fridman (13:01.420)

or be a leader or whether it's an art or anything,

Dan Reynolds (13:05.860)

people need to believe that you believe what you're doing.

Lex Fridman (13:11.500)

I think the best actors,

Dan Reynolds (13:13.780)

really, when they're doing their thing,

Lex Fridman (13:15.540)

it's like they, it's not acting.

Dan Reynolds (13:18.420)

They're in it, and it's how they feel,

Lex Fridman (13:22.100)

and they're expressing that sorrow or joy or whatever it is.

Dan Reynolds (13:25.820)

Harry, for me, Harry Nilsen, I just believe it.

Lex Fridman (13:30.900)

He sings that, and I feel it.

Lex Fridman (13:33.660)

And whether he's the greatest bullshitter of all time,

Lex Fridman (13:36.860)

I don't think that's the case.

Dan Reynolds (13:37.960)

I think he probably was singing that song,

Lex Fridman (13:39.580)

and he just could transport himself to wherever he was.

Dan Reynolds (13:44.620)

It's what makes a great live act.

Lex Fridman (13:46.880)

It's what makes a great song.

Lex Fridman (13:49.260)

And someone could be the best actor

Lex Fridman (13:51.660)

and sing that in the same timbre, same EQ,

Dan Reynolds (13:56.380)

same compression, same everything.

Lex Fridman (13:59.140)

And there's some unknown there that I,

Dan Reynolds (14:02.160)

I think, hopefully, it will be known at some point,

Lex Fridman (14:06.080)

and it's some scientific thing,

Lex Fridman (14:07.040)

but there's something there, the energy or something,

Lex Fridman (14:10.480)

that people can perceive it and say true or false.

Lex Fridman (14:14.640)

And if it resonates as true, it's so much more meaningful,

Lex Fridman (14:18.080)

and it lives on.

Lex Fridman (14:19.360)

And if it doesn't, that, for me, is what is good art or bad.

Lex Fridman (14:24.600)

For people to dispute over,

Dan Reynolds (14:25.960)

well, sonics should sound like that, silly to me.

Lex Fridman (14:28.000)

It's like a song or even a painting, like,

Dan Reynolds (14:33.280)

it's just the truthfulness of it.

Lex Fridman (14:36.960)

Yeah, the truly great art goes,

Dan Reynolds (14:40.480)

has to go to that place where you really are feeling it.

Lex Fridman (14:44.280)

Like, you forget that you're being recorded.

Dan Reynolds (14:46.160)

You forget there's an audience.

Lex Fridman (14:47.560)

You really are feeling it.

Dan Reynolds (14:50.280)

Yeah, which I totally agree with you.

Lex Fridman (14:53.160)

One of the things that I love about the internet

Dan Reynolds (14:56.060)

is it's brought the bullshit detector of the masses

Lex Fridman (15:02.960)

to power, which is beautiful,

Dan Reynolds (15:04.960)

because then the masses uplift the really authentic.

Lex Fridman (15:09.040)

And even if you didn't write the song,

Dan Reynolds (15:11.840)

I think it helps a lot, probably, if you wrote the song.

Lex Fridman (15:15.160)

But I was a little bit, maybe a lot,

Dan Reynolds (15:19.000)

since we're in Vegas, a little heartbroken

Lex Fridman (15:21.000)

that to find out that Elvis didn't write his songs.

Lex Fridman (15:24.480)

But I like, for example, Rocketman, Elton John,

Lex Fridman (15:30.620)

like, to find out that Elton John didn't really know

Dan Reynolds (15:33.900)

where the words of Rocketman came from,

Lex Fridman (15:36.500)

meaning, like, the depths of it, it's interesting.

Lex Fridman (15:39.260)

But nevertheless, he's super authentic,

Lex Fridman (15:42.060)

because for Elton John and for Elvis,

Dan Reynolds (15:44.740)

there's something in the fun and the darkness

Lex Fridman (15:48.320)

and the entertainment of it.

Dan Reynolds (15:49.620)

Like, he goes to someplace in his mind

Lex Fridman (15:51.740)

that might not be deeply connected

Dan Reynolds (15:53.500)

from where the lyrics came from.

Lex Fridman (15:55.700)

But he relates it.

Dan Reynolds (15:56.780)

He relates it to whatever is in his mind

Lex Fridman (15:59.540)

and goes to that place emotionally.

Dan Reynolds (16:01.420)

Yeah, and that's what I think it is.

Lex Fridman (16:03.220)

And that's why an actor, like I said,

Dan Reynolds (16:04.740)

can be completely honest to me.

Lex Fridman (16:07.260)

Maybe they didn't write the script.

Lex Fridman (16:08.980)

But I write, like, I've always written all my own lyrics.

Lex Fridman (16:12.480)

It's a really personal thing to me.

Lex Fridman (16:14.960)

But I will say, I see people all the time

Lex Fridman (16:18.440)

who are performers like Elton John, for instance,

Dan Reynolds (16:22.140)

who didn't write the lyrics that I believe

Lex Fridman (16:26.140)

that it means just as much to them as what I wrote,

Dan Reynolds (16:29.500)

because they find the meaning in it for themself.

Lex Fridman (16:33.220)

At least the greats do.

Lex Fridman (16:34.500)

And I think that's the difference maker.

Lex Fridman (16:37.580)

And I think you can perceive,

Lex Fridman (16:39.160)

and I'm sure you've seen art that doesn't move you,

Lex Fridman (16:43.080)

and maybe it moves someone else.

Lex Fridman (16:44.260)

But for you, for some reason,

Lex Fridman (16:45.660)

you perceive it to be uninteresting to you.

Lex Fridman (16:50.100)

And I feel like a lot of the time,

Lex Fridman (16:52.060)

I'm saying that it's, of course, sonically,

Dan Reynolds (16:53.780)

maybe it's uninteresting to you.

Lex Fridman (16:54.900)

But I think the majority of the time, for myself,

Dan Reynolds (16:58.020)

I can find inspiration in any sonic value or painting

Lex Fridman (17:02.420)

as long as I see it and I feel truth

Dan Reynolds (17:04.780)

from the person that created it.

Lex Fridman (17:06.900)

Yeah, and for me, the lyrics,

Dan Reynolds (17:10.420)

maybe not the entirety of the lyrics,

Lex Fridman (17:12.040)

but a few words can do wonders to take you to a place.

Lex Fridman (17:16.180)

And sometimes those words don't need to be connected

Lex Fridman (17:18.260)

with the other words.

Dan Reynolds (17:19.600)

That's the beauty of music.

Lex Fridman (17:21.260)

They're allowed to float in the space of mixed metaphors.

Dan Reynolds (17:25.500)

They're allowed to just jump around,

Lex Fridman (17:27.100)

and somehow it paints a picture without actually,

Lex Fridman (17:31.040)

what is it, glycerine by Bush?

Lex Fridman (17:33.180)

Right, but it's also how the person says it, right?

Dan Reynolds (17:35.820)

It's like, it's the feeling of exactly,

Lex Fridman (17:39.940)

and the same person could say that word 10 other ways

Lex Fridman (17:42.420)

and you don't care.

Lex Fridman (17:43.660)

But someone says glycerine or whatever it is,

Lex Fridman (17:46.120)

and it's like, oh, you know what?

Lex Fridman (17:48.620)

I feel that for some reason.

Dan Reynolds (17:51.060)

The way he said that, he meant it to me.

Lex Fridman (17:53.420)

You know what I mean?

Dan Reynolds (17:56.700)

No, I can't forget this evening

Lex Fridman (17:59.220)

or your face as you were leaving,

Lex Fridman (18:00.980)

but I guess that's just the way the story goes.

Lex Fridman (18:04.580)

You always smile, but in your eyes, your sorrow shows.

Dan Reynolds (18:07.700)

Yes, it shows.

Lex Fridman (18:10.380)

Let me ask you to analyze this song.

Lex Fridman (18:13.500)

Do you, so there's a lady possibly who's leaving him.

Lex Fridman (18:18.500)

Do you think he's leaving her or she's leaving him?

Dan Reynolds (18:22.580)

She went to.

Lex Fridman (18:24.380)

When I think of all my sorrow, and I had you there,

Lex Fridman (18:29.820)

but then I let you go.

Lex Fridman (18:34.640)

And now it's only fair that I should let you know

Lex Fridman (18:41.980)

what you should know.

Lex Fridman (18:43.380)

And then the chorus says, I can't live

Dan Reynolds (18:45.260)

if living is without you.

Lex Fridman (18:46.860)

I can't live, I can't give anymore.

Dan Reynolds (18:52.060)

He's got a voice on him.

Lex Fridman (18:53.620)

Yeah, he does.

Lex Fridman (18:54.580)

And if you really, there's been some incredible

Lex Fridman (18:57.740)

documentation on his life and the end of his life.

Lex Fridman (19:00.520)

And so my answer to this is probably skewed

Lex Fridman (19:04.800)

based on what I've seen about his life too,

Lex Fridman (19:06.920)

but he was a real alcoholic at the end of his life

Lex Fridman (19:10.600)

and it destroyed his voice and ended up killing him as well.

Lex Fridman (19:18.700)

And so when I hear that, I perceive it as

Lex Fridman (19:25.300)

someone who is destructive and in a destructive place

Dan Reynolds (19:28.340)

in life and can't love someone properly.

Lex Fridman (19:30.860)

And so they can't live with them,

Lex Fridman (19:32.140)

but they can't live without them type thing,

Lex Fridman (19:34.100)

which is really something that I really identify with

Lex Fridman (19:36.720)

and I think is one of the struggles of life

Lex Fridman (19:42.220)

is loving yourself enough, forgiving yourself for things

Lex Fridman (19:50.060)

and letting yourself love someone else.

Lex Fridman (19:52.100)

And at least when I listened out, I hear Harry being like,

Lex Fridman (19:56.260)

and maybe I'm wrong, but this is how I perceive it at least

Lex Fridman (19:58.460)

is not loving himself and feeling like he's deserving

Dan Reynolds (1:00:01.200)

they've played that they can no longer be the thing

Lex Fridman (1:00:06.000)

they were before, those great roles.

Dan Reynolds (1:00:08.400)

That's for sure, it's hard, it's hard to see.

Lex Fridman (1:00:11.760)

So you get to see that with Johnny Depp with,

Dan Reynolds (1:00:13.480)

I don't know, Pirates, he was talking about that

Lex Fridman (1:00:15.200)

with Pirates of the Caribbean, that was a shift.

Dan Reynolds (1:00:18.760)

Like he's not that guy, he's forever, forever that guy.

Lex Fridman (1:00:25.320)

But the point is to remember that you're not

Dan Reynolds (1:00:27.440)

into your family, which is interesting you said

Lex Fridman (1:00:29.120)

with your family, when I see people close to me,

Dan Reynolds (1:00:31.600)

they also, there is an element like that

Lex Fridman (1:00:34.860)

while you're that, they start treating you

Dan Reynolds (1:00:37.400)

like the famous person.

Lex Fridman (1:00:38.840)

Yeah, I'm fortunate to have my manager who's my brother,

Dan Reynolds (1:00:44.360)

my older brother, and my lawyer is my other older brother.

Lex Fridman (1:00:48.840)

And that's been helpful because it's weird,

Dan Reynolds (1:00:53.640)

it gets weird with everyone no matter what.

Lex Fridman (1:00:55.400)

One of the best advice I was given was by Charlie Sheen.

Dan Reynolds (1:00:59.440)

You got advice from Charlie Sheen.

Lex Fridman (1:01:00.560)

Yeah, we were playing.

Dan Reynolds (1:01:02.160)

The wise sage of our generation.

Lex Fridman (1:01:04.160)

Wise sage Charlie Sheen, but it was, it was really wise.

Dan Reynolds (1:01:07.760)

I was sitting next to him and we were playing

Lex Fridman (1:01:11.320)

some late night television and he said,

Dan Reynolds (1:01:13.220)

this was right at the beginning, and he just said,

Lex Fridman (1:01:14.940)

boys, just mark my words, your life is about

Dan Reynolds (1:01:18.800)

to get really weird, that's all he said.

Lex Fridman (1:01:21.220)

But it stuck with me forever and it's Charlie Sheen,

Lex Fridman (1:01:22.840)

so of course it sticks with you.

Lex Fridman (1:01:25.060)

And I remember being like, right, okay, Charlie Sheen,

Dan Reynolds (1:01:27.280)

I'm not Charlie Sheen, it's not gonna get weird,

Lex Fridman (1:01:29.100)

like, you know.

Lex Fridman (1:01:29.940)

But it got really, really weird, really quick,

Lex Fridman (1:01:34.440)

because suddenly you've existed your whole life

Dan Reynolds (1:01:37.640)

in this way where everybody just,

Lex Fridman (1:01:39.920)

everything you get, you achieved,

Dan Reynolds (1:01:42.440)

it was because you got it.

Lex Fridman (1:01:44.520)

And every conversation you had, like,

Dan Reynolds (1:01:47.220)

if someone liked you at the end of that conversation,

Lex Fridman (1:01:49.640)

well, it's because they liked you.

Dan Reynolds (1:01:51.080)

If they didn't like you, it's because they didn't like you.

Lex Fridman (1:01:53.580)

And you can make complete peace with that.

Dan Reynolds (1:01:55.280)

At least I could my whole life.

Lex Fridman (1:01:56.520)

I was like, life is a challenge.

Lex Fridman (1:01:58.640)

And be myself and I'm gonna go through it

Lex Fridman (1:02:01.920)

and find some people along the way that I connect with

Lex Fridman (1:02:04.280)

and others, no.

Lex Fridman (1:02:05.200)

And that social integrity is so important to us.

Lex Fridman (1:02:11.260)

And we think it would be nice to have this,

Lex Fridman (1:02:13.880)

and this is going back to the pitfalls of fame.

Dan Reynolds (1:02:16.260)

We think it would be nice to walk into a room

Lex Fridman (1:02:18.940)

and have everyone be like,

Lex Fridman (1:02:22.160)

and you could be like, dumpster fire.

Lex Fridman (1:02:24.960)

And everybody's like, oh my gosh, dumpster fire,

Dan Reynolds (1:02:26.800)

that was amazing.

Lex Fridman (1:02:28.040)

Well, you said dumpster fire was amazing.

Dan Reynolds (1:02:30.360)

It's like, it's incredibly, incredibly lonely.

Lex Fridman (1:02:34.920)

And it just breaks everything that you knew about humanness.

Lex Fridman (1:02:39.000)

And it sucks.

Lex Fridman (1:02:39.840)

So then you're seeking out people who,

Dan Reynolds (1:02:42.800)

that it doesn't exist with.

Lex Fridman (1:02:44.200)

And family is the closest you can get to that for sure.

Lex Fridman (1:02:46.120)

But even your family, it's gonna take a little bit

Lex Fridman (1:02:47.760)

where they're like, oh, this is a little weird.

Dan Reynolds (1:02:49.160)

Like all my friends at work are now asking about you

Lex Fridman (1:02:51.840)

and you're my young, stupid brother.

Lex Fridman (1:02:53.120)

But now you're suddenly like the young, stupid brother

Lex Fridman (1:02:55.200)

that they want an autograph from and stuff.

Lex Fridman (1:02:56.640)

And it still makes, like they have to get over that

Lex Fridman (1:02:59.200)

and figure that out.

Lex Fridman (1:03:03.160)

And then you meet people too

Lex Fridman (1:03:04.280)

who know about this whole concept and they're like,

Dan Reynolds (1:03:06.440)

well, I'm gonna be an asshole to him

Lex Fridman (1:03:08.160)

to show him that I don't subscribe.

Lex Fridman (1:03:11.720)

And you're dealing with like people who are like,

Lex Fridman (1:03:14.040)

dumpster fire, the person who's like,

Dan Reynolds (1:03:17.040)

you could say something actually profound and nice

Lex Fridman (1:03:19.440)

and they'd be like, that's stupid and you're an idiot.

Dan Reynolds (1:03:22.640)

Cause it's like an actual attempt to like show you

Lex Fridman (1:03:25.640)

how much they don't care.

Lex Fridman (1:03:27.280)

So you live in this very, like this.

Lex Fridman (1:03:29.840)

Still, nevertheless, even when nobody knew you,

Dan Reynolds (1:03:32.160)

you were seeking for deep human connection

Lex Fridman (1:03:35.040)

with a small number of people.

Lex Fridman (1:03:37.000)

And now when a lot of people know you,

Lex Fridman (1:03:39.200)

you're still looking for deep connection

Dan Reynolds (1:03:41.200)

with a small number of people.

Lex Fridman (1:03:43.280)

The struggle is the same.

Lex Fridman (1:03:46.040)

Can you speak to,

Lex Fridman (1:03:47.400)

cause you mentioned some of the dark moments.

Lex Fridman (1:03:49.640)

What advice would you give to people

Lex Fridman (1:03:51.360)

who are struggling with depression?

Lex Fridman (1:03:53.640)

And maybe for the people who love the people

Lex Fridman (1:03:57.560)

who are struggling with depression.

Lex Fridman (1:04:00.840)

So what I have found to be most successful for me,

Lex Fridman (1:04:05.760)

it's back to the basics of everything

Dan Reynolds (1:04:09.160)

that the therapist or psychologist will tell you,

Lex Fridman (1:04:12.280)

psychiatrist will tell you right when you meet them,

Dan Reynolds (1:04:13.760)

which is exercise every day,

Lex Fridman (1:04:19.200)

eat healthy for sure,

Dan Reynolds (1:04:22.520)

find time, make time every day to do something

Lex Fridman (1:04:24.760)

that you love, whatever that may be,

Dan Reynolds (1:04:27.840)

whatever brings you joy.

Lex Fridman (1:04:30.840)

And when you're really depressed,

Dan Reynolds (1:04:32.560)

that actually feels like nothing.

Lex Fridman (1:04:34.440)

Cause the things that brought you joy,

Dan Reynolds (1:04:36.400)

don't bring you joy anymore.

Lex Fridman (1:04:37.760)

When I'm really in the thick of it.

Lex Fridman (1:04:39.920)

But for me, like this is the cycle

Lex Fridman (1:04:43.840)

that I'll go through is I'll look at my life

Lex Fridman (1:04:46.000)

and I'll say, okay, what can I clean up?

Lex Fridman (1:04:48.400)

All right, well, for me it was cutting out alcohol

Dan Reynolds (1:04:51.960)

actually helped me a lot.

Lex Fridman (1:04:55.000)

I know that sounds like a big,

Dan Reynolds (1:04:56.240)

I'm not judging anybody for that.

Lex Fridman (1:04:59.200)

And I still drink on occasion,

Lex Fridman (1:05:01.040)

but I felt like alcohol has been very unhelpful

Lex Fridman (1:05:03.840)

to my mental state.

Dan Reynolds (1:05:06.960)

Feel less drive and less happiness the next day

Lex Fridman (1:05:09.320)

for things that I wanna do.

Dan Reynolds (1:05:10.320)

I feel like it plays a lot with your serotonin.

Lex Fridman (1:05:12.760)

So look for stuff to change.

Dan Reynolds (1:05:14.680)

Clean living, yeah, clean living,

Lex Fridman (1:05:16.600)

but also understanding that sometimes it just is,

Lex Fridman (1:05:22.240)

and you just keep breathing

Lex Fridman (1:05:24.040)

and it will get better with time.

Dan Reynolds (1:05:25.960)

This too shall pass.

Lex Fridman (1:05:27.080)

This too shall pass.

Dan Reynolds (1:05:27.920)

Like I really think that in the winter,

Lex Fridman (1:05:31.360)

I'm pretty sure, I mean, I've had a lot of,

Dan Reynolds (1:05:33.760)

I've seen a lot of therapists

Lex Fridman (1:05:34.680)

and all of them say the same thing,

Dan Reynolds (1:05:35.800)

which is like, you have major depressive disorder

Lex Fridman (1:05:37.800)

and this is what it is,

Lex Fridman (1:05:38.640)

but it's certainly worse for me in the winter months.

Lex Fridman (1:05:41.360)

So I know there's like, I can't think of the term for it,

Lex Fridman (1:05:44.760)

but there's a term for like seasonal depression.

Lex Fridman (1:05:47.120)

There it is.

Lex Fridman (1:05:49.200)

So I'll get to the winter and suddenly I'm like,

Lex Fridman (1:05:51.040)

geez, everything really sucks on a deeper level.

Lex Fridman (1:05:55.120)

And then, so it's like this too shall pass is another thing.

Lex Fridman (1:05:58.280)

It's like, just practice those things.

Dan Reynolds (1:06:01.080)

Absolutely see a therapist.

Lex Fridman (1:06:02.800)

That's my biggest, like my biggest emphasis of life

Dan Reynolds (1:06:04.960)

is to like on stage, like my goal,

Lex Fridman (1:06:07.440)

like I have a few things that I really, really care about.

Dan Reynolds (1:06:09.480)

One is mental health and destigmatizing therapy.

Lex Fridman (1:06:13.640)

Cause for me, I didn't go to therapy for a long time

Dan Reynolds (1:06:15.640)

because I felt that it would be admitting that I was broken.

Lex Fridman (1:06:18.680)

It'd be admitting that I was weaker than Lex

Dan Reynolds (1:06:22.320)

who doesn't have to go to a therapist

Lex Fridman (1:06:23.880)

because Lex is stronger.

Lex Fridman (1:06:25.480)

So be strong like Lex.

Lex Fridman (1:06:27.880)

I would like look at all my older brothers

Lex Fridman (1:06:29.400)

and I looked up to them so much

Lex Fridman (1:06:30.600)

and they're all these incredibly successful people,

Dan Reynolds (1:06:32.880)

plastic surgeon, an anesthesiologist, a dentist,

Lex Fridman (1:06:35.960)

two attorneys, Stanford, NYU,

Dan Reynolds (1:06:38.240)

like just like incredible high standards,

Lex Fridman (1:06:41.680)

Eagle Scouts, you know, like they valedictorians,

Dan Reynolds (1:06:45.400)

like they just did it all.

Lex Fridman (1:06:47.360)

So for me, I was very, really did not want to admit

Lex Fridman (1:06:53.480)

and none of them went to therapy.

Lex Fridman (1:06:55.320)

So it was like, what are you going to be?

Dan Reynolds (1:06:56.680)

Are you, oh, you're broken.

Lex Fridman (1:06:58.000)

Are you like the weak one who can't hack life?

Lex Fridman (1:07:01.160)

And I think that's incredibly dangerous.

Lex Fridman (1:07:03.600)

And I feel like it almost cost me my life

Dan Reynolds (1:07:05.600)

because I took so long to finally go to therapy.

Lex Fridman (1:07:08.600)

So I really want kids to know,

Dan Reynolds (1:07:10.760)

hey, like the great people that achieve great things

Lex Fridman (1:07:14.440)

that are doing amazing things,

Dan Reynolds (1:07:16.120)

they probably have help, almost all of them.

Lex Fridman (1:07:18.720)

It's like going to the gym, but it's a mental gym.

Dan Reynolds (1:07:21.320)

What, so I, unfortunately,

Lex Fridman (1:07:23.440)

I wanted to be a psychiatrist when I was growing up.

Dan Reynolds (1:07:27.360)

Maybe that's why I like podcasts.

Lex Fridman (1:07:29.040)

Maybe that's.

Dan Reynolds (1:07:29.880)

I think you'd be a good one.

Lex Fridman (1:07:30.720)

Maybe, I would.

Lex Fridman (1:07:32.280)

I think you are a psychiatrist, pretty much, right?

Lex Fridman (1:07:35.360)

Sounds like you're a psychiatrist.

Dan Reynolds (1:07:36.200)

I think I need more.

Lex Fridman (1:07:37.120)

I think actually, to be a good psychiatrist,

Dan Reynolds (1:07:41.200)

you also need to be seeking therapy from the,

Lex Fridman (1:07:44.480)

like you also need to be,

Dan Reynolds (1:07:46.520)

have some stuff to work through in your mind.

Lex Fridman (1:07:50.000)

I think, yeah, you have to have gone to some dark places.

Lex Fridman (1:07:55.560)

What?

Lex Fridman (1:07:56.400)

The empathize.

Dan Reynolds (1:07:57.240)

The empathy.

Lex Fridman (1:07:58.080)

It's the ability to empathize,

Lex Fridman (1:07:59.200)

and especially if you've directly experienced it,

Lex Fridman (1:08:02.160)

you can go to those places in your mind.

Dan Reynolds (1:08:04.840)

Like you said, it's with the music,

Lex Fridman (1:08:06.720)

to be authentic, you have to really go there.

Lex Fridman (1:08:08.560)

What, why did therapy help so much?

Lex Fridman (1:08:12.680)

What is the process of therapy,

Lex Fridman (1:08:14.600)

if you can just educate a little more?

Lex Fridman (1:08:16.800)

Is it, are you basically bringing to the surface

Lex Fridman (1:08:20.720)

and talking through things that you,

Lex Fridman (1:08:24.520)

because of the momentum of life,

Dan Reynolds (1:08:27.760)

you just never allow yourself to speak through,

Lex Fridman (1:08:31.240)

to think through?

Lex Fridman (1:08:32.440)

Is that what therapy is?

Lex Fridman (1:08:33.680)

Or is there some more systematic thing?

Lex Fridman (1:08:36.280)

So I've been to a lot of strange,

Lex Fridman (1:08:38.760)

different kinds of therapy.

Lex Fridman (1:08:39.840)

So I'll tell you my first therapist.

Lex Fridman (1:08:41.720)

If I could sort of interrupt,

Lex Fridman (1:08:43.560)

how hard is it to find a therapist that connected with you?

Lex Fridman (1:08:47.760)

It is, it's actually pretty hard, I think.

Dan Reynolds (1:08:50.880)

I think, I think it for,

Lex Fridman (1:08:53.400)

well, actually I have a skewed view of that,

Dan Reynolds (1:08:55.080)

because going back to the beginning of my therapy

Lex Fridman (1:08:59.440)

was with a Mormon therapist.

Lex Fridman (1:09:01.960)

So it was very much like,

Lex Fridman (1:09:03.900)

well, are you reading your book of Mormon?

Lex Fridman (1:09:05.880)

And are you praying at night?

Lex Fridman (1:09:07.440)

You know what I mean?

Dan Reynolds (1:09:08.280)

Like, that was a big focus of my therapy

Lex Fridman (1:09:10.080)

to begin with.

Lex Fridman (1:09:10.920)

And you're having a faith crisis in the distance somewhere.

Lex Fridman (1:09:13.720)

Yes, I was like, well, and then.

Dan Reynolds (1:09:17.040)

You're making it worse.

Lex Fridman (1:09:18.080)

Yes, the next therapist I went to

Dan Reynolds (1:09:20.640)

was a Scientology therapist.

Lex Fridman (1:09:25.280)

I met my wife and she was Scientologist at the time,

Lex Fridman (1:09:28.120)

and she's not anymore.

Lex Fridman (1:09:29.640)

She's like, it's such a funny thing to look back on,

Dan Reynolds (1:09:33.880)

because we met, and I was like this Mormon missionary

Lex Fridman (1:09:36.920)

who had just got home from his mission,

Lex Fridman (1:09:38.200)

and I met her, and she's a Scientologist.

Lex Fridman (1:09:40.120)

I was like, wow, that's batshit crazy.

Dan Reynolds (1:09:41.720)

Like, that stuff's crazy.

Lex Fridman (1:09:43.840)

And she's like, what are you talking about?

Dan Reynolds (1:09:44.740)

That's your crazy, you're a Mormon.

Lex Fridman (1:09:47.120)

That's batshit crazy.

Lex Fridman (1:09:48.720)

And the two of us were like, huh,

Lex Fridman (1:09:51.760)

maybe there's something to this, to both of us here.

Dan Reynolds (1:09:54.280)

Yeah, the tension actually forces you to think through,

Lex Fridman (1:09:56.760)

oh, well, what is true?

Dan Reynolds (1:09:58.280)

Yeah, and we really fell in love through that,

Lex Fridman (1:10:01.520)

which was like, maybe we're both on the wrong track.

Dan Reynolds (1:10:05.200)

Let's figure this out.

Lex Fridman (1:10:06.200)

But before that happened,

Dan Reynolds (1:10:07.540)

we went to a Scientologist therapist,

Lex Fridman (1:10:12.120)

who that therapy consisted of,

Lex Fridman (1:10:14.600)

what have you done wrong to Asia?

Lex Fridman (1:10:17.760)

And they would ask me that question

Dan Reynolds (1:10:19.240)

over and over and over and over,

Lex Fridman (1:10:20.880)

until I'm like thinking of the deepest, darkest things

Dan Reynolds (1:10:23.420)

that were in the recesses of my mind.

Lex Fridman (1:10:25.660)

This was marriage therapy.

Dan Reynolds (1:10:28.280)

Anyway, I'm not gonna get into that,

Lex Fridman (1:10:30.240)

but it was Scientology therapy.

Lex Fridman (1:10:32.400)

So that was a different thing.

Lex Fridman (1:10:33.520)

And then I went to therapy therapy,

Dan Reynolds (1:10:36.680)

like no, not attached to any religion.

Lex Fridman (1:10:39.040)

And that was a really great experience for me.

Lex Fridman (1:10:40.960)

And since then I've been through

Lex Fridman (1:10:42.200)

a couple of different therapists,

Lex Fridman (1:10:43.120)

but that was more because where I was

Lex Fridman (1:10:45.720)

and moving and things like that.

Lex Fridman (1:10:47.680)

So is it that hard to find a great therapist?

Lex Fridman (1:10:50.160)

Probably not, but maybe don't go

Dan Reynolds (1:10:51.800)

to your Mormon therapist

Lex Fridman (1:10:52.880)

versus that Scientology therapist.

Dan Reynolds (1:10:55.520)

Or maybe that's the route for you.

Lex Fridman (1:10:57.760)

Maybe it's the route for you, I don't know.

Dan Reynolds (1:10:59.080)

Yeah, but what is, so is it bringing stuff

Lex Fridman (1:11:01.320)

to the surface, basically?

Dan Reynolds (1:11:02.840)

Oh yeah, sorry, I didn't even answer your question.

Lex Fridman (1:11:04.440)

What's the effect, why is it so effective?

Lex Fridman (1:11:06.520)

Just, is there something you could put words to?

Lex Fridman (1:11:10.220)

Yeah, I mean, I think it's, obviously,

Dan Reynolds (1:11:11.720)

there's the common things you would think of,

Lex Fridman (1:11:13.180)

which is like, oh, I've been holding these things in

Dan Reynolds (1:11:15.120)

that I don't wanna tell anybody,

Lex Fridman (1:11:16.160)

and then I tell this person,

Lex Fridman (1:11:17.280)

and oh, there's relief in that.

Lex Fridman (1:11:19.240)

But that's really not where the real work comes from.

Dan Reynolds (1:11:21.480)

I think the real work is meeting with someone

Lex Fridman (1:11:24.600)

who is well versed and educated and understands.

Dan Reynolds (1:11:29.000)

It's like coding.

Lex Fridman (1:11:30.720)

It really is, it's like someone who,

Dan Reynolds (1:11:32.760)

they listen to you, and they're like,

Lex Fridman (1:11:33.920)

well, that was a trigger,

Lex Fridman (1:11:34.800)

and then this became this trigger,

Lex Fridman (1:11:36.240)

and you're probably, every time you're hearing that,

Dan Reynolds (1:11:38.280)

thinking of this thing that happened earlier in your life,

Lex Fridman (1:11:41.340)

and they just will walk you through scenarios,

Lex Fridman (1:11:43.120)

and maybe some of them aren't right,

Lex Fridman (1:11:44.520)

but some of them, you'll be like,

Dan Reynolds (1:11:45.640)

it'll resonate sometimes, you're like,

Lex Fridman (1:11:47.040)

wow, I am feeling that because of that,

Lex Fridman (1:11:50.080)

and that did happen, and maybe if I call my mom

Lex Fridman (1:11:52.640)

and say this to her, it will make me feel,

Dan Reynolds (1:11:54.520)

hey mom, this happened, it's like work.

Lex Fridman (1:11:56.520)

You put in work, and you have hard conversations

Lex Fridman (1:11:59.080)

and do difficult things,

Lex Fridman (1:12:00.600)

and if, so if your therapy's not difficult,

Dan Reynolds (1:12:03.440)

I actually think that's not good therapy.

Lex Fridman (1:12:05.600)

Good therapy is, it's gonna be a little difficult,

Dan Reynolds (1:12:08.320)

it's work, like.

Lex Fridman (1:12:10.280)

During and after.

Dan Reynolds (1:12:11.560)

Yes, like I had this incredible therapist who was,

Lex Fridman (1:12:15.360)

I told him when I was gonna do ayahuasca,

Dan Reynolds (1:12:16.840)

he was like, geez, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:12:18.240)

he had actually was a doctor before

Lex Fridman (1:12:20.320)

and a really well educated studied person

Lex Fridman (1:12:22.520)

who had walked away from brain doctor,

Lex Fridman (1:12:26.560)

what's the word for that, brain doctor?

Lex Fridman (1:12:28.280)

Brain surgeon? Neurologist.

Dan Reynolds (1:12:29.720)

Oh yeah, neurologist, yep.

Lex Fridman (1:12:30.880)

And he said, well basically his belief was that ayahuasca

Dan Reynolds (1:12:36.040)

was like basically doing therapy like 50 sessions.

Lex Fridman (1:12:39.720)

He was like, it's like really intensive.

Dan Reynolds (1:12:42.000)

He was like, I don't know if you wanna do that,

Lex Fridman (1:12:44.320)

if you do, you can make some big steps forward,

Lex Fridman (1:12:47.560)

but I prefer just to do one session at a time.

Lex Fridman (1:12:51.000)

And so yeah, it's hard work.

Lex Fridman (1:12:53.920)

And that, I typically like,

Lex Fridman (1:12:56.360)

it's really hard for me to even talk about ayahuasca

Dan Reynolds (1:12:58.000)

by the way, going back to that,

Lex Fridman (1:12:58.920)

because I'm not looking to tell everybody to go do ayahuasca.

Dan Reynolds (1:13:01.840)

It's incredibly hard.

Lex Fridman (1:13:03.800)

It was the scariest experience of my entire life.

Dan Reynolds (1:13:07.120)

It felt like I went to heaven,

Lex Fridman (1:13:08.560)

but it also felt like I went to the darkest, deepest hell

Dan Reynolds (1:13:11.680)

that was incredibly scary, incredibly scary, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:13:16.680)

So you told the story of how you wrote the song Believer

Dan Reynolds (1:13:22.240)

or like your childhood friend, I guess, Donald,

Lex Fridman (1:13:27.800)

like bullying and that kind of stuff.

Dan Reynolds (1:13:31.720)

This song, I mean, a lot of your songs

Lex Fridman (1:13:34.040)

are super interesting sort of in terms of percussion,

Dan Reynolds (1:13:37.920)

super interesting, super interesting lyrically,

Lex Fridman (1:13:40.480)

just how it flows and also pain is at the center of it.

Dan Reynolds (1:13:45.480)

I mean, a lot of, like you said, the crisis of faith,

Lex Fridman (1:13:49.200)

some of these existential questions

Dan Reynolds (1:13:50.680)

are basically behind a lot of your songs, funny enough.

Lex Fridman (1:13:55.480)

Maybe they're covered in metaphor, so it's hard to see,

Lex Fridman (1:14:00.340)

but it's there.

Lex Fridman (1:14:01.180)

And this song is really interesting in that way

Dan Reynolds (1:14:05.560)

that it puts pain, you made me a believer.

Lex Fridman (1:14:10.560)

You break me down, you build me up, Believer.

Dan Reynolds (1:14:16.380)

That's so interesting.

Lex Fridman (1:14:18.980)

Maybe can you tell the story of how the song came to be?

Dan Reynolds (1:14:22.140)

I'd love to listen to it too.

Lex Fridman (1:14:23.220)

I have some questions musically about it too.

Dan Reynolds (1:14:25.220)

Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's exactly

Lex Fridman (1:14:29.900)

what we're talking about with therapy.

Dan Reynolds (1:14:30.860)

I just feel like the greatest things in my life

Lex Fridman (1:14:34.860)

have come from the deepest hurt, like losing someone,

Dan Reynolds (1:14:43.980)

that you love is maybe the hardest part of the human path

Lex Fridman (1:14:48.700)

for me, at least thus far.

Lex Fridman (1:14:51.260)

When I think of, okay, what was the hardest thing?

Lex Fridman (1:14:52.820)

There's like, you think of physical pain

Dan Reynolds (1:14:55.740)

or maybe like going through financial pain or whatever.

Lex Fridman (1:14:58.540)

I think losing someone that you really love to death

Dan Reynolds (1:15:02.140)

is one of the hardest, for me,

Lex Fridman (1:15:05.260)

I would say it was the hardest.

Lex Fridman (1:15:08.580)

But it also makes you look at your life

Lex Fridman (1:15:10.060)

completely differently and alter your life,

Dan Reynolds (1:15:13.160)

at least for me in ways that were really healthy.

Lex Fridman (1:15:16.760)

Being more present, letting go of things

Dan Reynolds (1:15:19.300)

that were meaningless, trying to control

Lex Fridman (1:15:21.180)

what other people think about you,

Dan Reynolds (1:15:22.420)

like wasting your time on things like that.

Lex Fridman (1:15:25.300)

And you suddenly see like, wow, like time,

Lex Fridman (1:15:28.740)

I got small amount of time, like how do I wanna spend it?

Lex Fridman (1:15:31.160)

I'm gonna spend it in the best way I know how and that's it.

Dan Reynolds (1:15:34.140)

So, yeah, I mean, it's a basic concept

Lex Fridman (1:15:37.860)

that's been said a million times over

Dan Reynolds (1:15:39.120)

in a million different ways.

Lex Fridman (1:15:39.960)

But that's pretty much what I was trying to say with Believer

Dan Reynolds (1:15:42.860)

which is like, I've lost faith in everything

Lex Fridman (1:15:46.300)

at that time period or previous to that time period.

Lex Fridman (1:15:51.020)

And then I was rebuilding my faith

Lex Fridman (1:15:53.180)

or my spiritual thought process.

Lex Fridman (1:15:57.160)

And it was after ayahuasca and it was like, finding,

Lex Fridman (1:16:02.100)

being a Believer and that's not necessarily like

Dan Reynolds (1:16:05.780)

a Believer in God or a Believer in heaven and hell

Lex Fridman (1:16:09.220)

or anything like that, but a Believer in more.

Dan Reynolds (1:16:12.860)

Believing in goodness, believing in that there is some light

Lex Fridman (1:16:17.700)

like, and again, those words like, they're just words

Lex Fridman (1:16:22.780)

and I wish there were better words to formulate

Lex Fridman (1:16:24.660)

the thought that I'm trying to express,

Lex Fridman (1:16:25.900)

but just more, like the thought of me dying,

Lex Fridman (1:16:33.060)

for me, I don't fear it, I don't fear it,

Lex Fridman (1:16:37.820)

but actually I really fear not seeing my kids again.

Lex Fridman (1:16:42.520)

I'll say that, that is fearful for me.

Dan Reynolds (1:16:44.820)

I feel like I love so deeply these children

Lex Fridman (1:16:48.040)

that the thought of like leaving them

Dan Reynolds (1:16:51.140)

for me is a scary thought or something.

Lex Fridman (1:16:55.300)

They're kind of good reminder

Lex Fridman (1:16:58.180)

how much you love life actually.

Lex Fridman (1:17:00.800)

And you don't always remember that.

Dan Reynolds (1:17:04.160)

Yeah, and I think having kids is not for everyone

Lex Fridman (1:17:07.260)

for absolutely for sure, but for me,

Lex Fridman (1:17:09.540)

and especially you shouldn't be having kids

Lex Fridman (1:17:11.420)

to give yourself a reason to live.

Dan Reynolds (1:17:14.420)

I feel like dying, I'm gonna have a kid.

Lex Fridman (1:17:16.980)

You might feel more like dying after having a kid actually.

Dan Reynolds (1:17:20.540)

It's pretty stressful, but it is a place to like,

Lex Fridman (1:17:23.900)

I've changed a lot of people that I've known

Dan Reynolds (1:17:26.480)

that it gave them a new intensity

Lex Fridman (1:17:29.660)

of gratitude for life, for sure.

Dan Reynolds (1:17:32.700)

Guy, do you mind if we, I'll return to the pain

Lex Fridman (1:17:35.740)

and the belief, do you mind if we listen

Lex Fridman (1:17:37.080)

to a little bit of songs?

Lex Fridman (1:17:38.140)

No, it's fine.

Lex Fridman (1:17:44.840)

Do you write the music first or the words first?

Lex Fridman (1:17:47.380)

Uh, the same time, which is very typical for me.

Dan Reynolds (1:17:51.620)

By just the way it opens, intensity of openings.

Lex Fridman (1:17:56.960)

You ever think about what the first few seconds sound like?

Dan Reynolds (1:18:00.100)

Is that something that, like when you imagine a song,

Lex Fridman (1:18:03.880)

is it the opening you imagine?

Dan Reynolds (1:18:06.180)

No, it's kind of a, I never think opening,

Lex Fridman (1:18:10.500)

I never think final, I think soundscape

Dan Reynolds (1:18:14.180)

of how I'm feeling right now.

Lex Fridman (1:18:16.240)

So it could be the middle of the song

Dan Reynolds (1:18:17.820)

for all I know when I'm doing that,

Lex Fridman (1:18:20.320)

but my process for me is very much lyrics and melody

Lex Fridman (1:18:24.700)

and music really come at the same time.

Lex Fridman (1:18:27.500)

Like I, by same time, I mean, I'm,

Dan Reynolds (1:18:31.740)

I'm, as I'm expressing maybe, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:18:34.980)

I'm feeling like.

Dan Reynolds (1:18:42.780)

Like, it's not that simple, but it's like,

Lex Fridman (1:18:44.340)

I'll hear it, like, it's like, here's all the orchestra

Lex Fridman (1:18:47.540)

and you're kind of just pressing all the buttons at once

Lex Fridman (1:18:49.540)

and melody and my voice is just one of those instruments.

Lex Fridman (1:18:53.600)

You know what I mean?

Lex Fridman (1:18:54.440)

It's just utilizing one instrument.

Lex Fridman (1:18:56.020)

So you've seen the landscape and that landscape

Lex Fridman (1:18:57.820)

includes melody, includes percussion, lyrics a little bit,

Lex Fridman (1:19:01.220)

or lyrics?

Lex Fridman (1:19:02.180)

I will be words to begin with, like a word here and there.

Dan Reynolds (1:19:05.180)

Like, I'll be like.

Lex Fridman (1:19:10.580)

You know, I'm like, what's a word that I'm thinking of

Lex Fridman (1:19:12.820)

when I'm feeling this soundscape?

Lex Fridman (1:19:14.780)

And I always create with no theme in mind.

Dan Reynolds (1:19:19.280)

I'm never, for better or for worse,

Lex Fridman (1:19:21.740)

just my process is I'm sitting down

Lex Fridman (1:19:24.400)

and I'm writing a journal entry.

Lex Fridman (1:19:26.580)

Simple as that.

Dan Reynolds (1:19:27.420)

It's like, when you sit down to write a journal entry,

Lex Fridman (1:19:29.500)

are you sitting down and you're like, Kev,

Dan Reynolds (1:19:31.860)

I've had all these words here that I'm gonna put on the page

Lex Fridman (1:19:33.980)

and I'm gonna order it in this way.

Lex Fridman (1:19:35.580)

And my theme for my journal entry today is gonna be this.

Lex Fridman (1:19:38.260)

Maybe some people do, but I don't.

Dan Reynolds (1:19:39.380)

My journal entry is, I don't know what I'm gonna say.

Lex Fridman (1:19:42.060)

Oh, how was today?

Dan Reynolds (1:19:43.020)

Well, man, today was this and feeling this.

Lex Fridman (1:19:45.480)

And now that I think about that,

Dan Reynolds (1:19:46.320)

I'm really angry about that.

Lex Fridman (1:19:47.660)

That hurt my feelings when this happened.

Dan Reynolds (1:19:49.380)

I mean, you're like, you're formulating it as you go

Lex Fridman (1:19:51.900)

and that's the joy of it.

Lex Fridman (1:19:53.080)

And for me, that's what music is.

Lex Fridman (1:19:55.360)

So I'll sit down, not thinking,

Dan Reynolds (1:19:57.820)

hey, I've been wanting to write a song that has a hard beat

Lex Fridman (1:20:00.540)

or I've been wanting to write a song that's anthemic

Dan Reynolds (1:20:02.220)

or I've been wanting to write a song that's,

Lex Fridman (1:20:03.860)

it's like, how am I feeling right now?

Lex Fridman (1:20:06.080)

And it's joyful?

Lex Fridman (1:20:07.340)

Is the feeling joyful to you or is it struggle?

Dan Reynolds (1:20:10.980)

You just made it sound like it's joyful.

Lex Fridman (1:20:15.940)

Or at least fulfilling.

Dan Reynolds (1:20:17.300)

I wouldn't use that.

Lex Fridman (1:20:18.140)

Yeah, fulfilling is the word I was kind of looking for,

Lex Fridman (1:20:20.180)

but there was.

Lex Fridman (1:20:21.020)

There's a lot of artists talk about really struggle,

Dan Reynolds (1:20:23.020)

like you talk about writers.

Lex Fridman (1:20:24.500)

Cathartic, that's the word I was looking for.

Dan Reynolds (1:20:26.460)

It feels like having a good moment with a therapist

Lex Fridman (1:20:30.460)

where you're like, okay, I'm expressing this thing

Dan Reynolds (1:20:34.540)

that I just need to express.

Lex Fridman (1:20:36.100)

For whatever reason, I need to express this.

Dan Reynolds (1:20:38.980)

The majority of the songs I write,

Lex Fridman (1:20:40.220)

for the record, are never heard.

Dan Reynolds (1:20:41.580)

I write over 100 songs a year.

Lex Fridman (1:20:43.800)

I release 20 songs every three years.

Lex Fridman (1:20:47.900)

So, I don't know, what's that percent?

Lex Fridman (1:20:49.780)

20 out of 300.

Dan Reynolds (1:20:51.120)

Come on, Lex.

Lex Fridman (1:20:53.960)

It's less than 10%.

Dan Reynolds (1:20:55.620)

Less than 10%, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:20:56.740)

Eight, seven or something?

Dan Reynolds (1:20:57.780)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:20:59.460)

Anyway, so it's.

Lex Fridman (1:21:01.080)

And then getting together with the band

Lex Fridman (1:21:02.680)

and getting them selected down

Dan Reynolds (1:21:04.740)

is really what the process has.

Lex Fridman (1:21:06.740)

So you're really writing a song per one to three days.

Dan Reynolds (1:21:11.740)

Three days, maybe a song that you can't quite figure out

Lex Fridman (1:21:16.380)

the puzzle of that's gonna last a little longer.

Lex Fridman (1:21:20.140)

Is it worth the struggle?

Lex Fridman (1:21:20.980)

I finish every idea.

Dan Reynolds (1:21:22.100)

Yeah, you finish every idea.

Lex Fridman (1:21:23.940)

I do, I finish every idea.

Lex Fridman (1:21:25.100)

So it's not just like laying completely unfinished.

Lex Fridman (1:21:28.100)

I could open my computer for you right now

Lex Fridman (1:21:30.000)

and I would show you hundreds and hundreds of songs

Lex Fridman (1:21:33.260)

that you would listen to and think,

Dan Reynolds (1:21:35.300)

that sounds like a song.

Lex Fridman (1:21:36.420)

It's like there's rhythm, there's melody,

Dan Reynolds (1:21:38.340)

there's multiple instruments, there's lyrics.

Lex Fridman (1:21:40.660)

Like I, it's the same thing as for coding for me,

Dan Reynolds (1:21:45.020)

which is music, which is I can't walk away

Lex Fridman (1:21:47.660)

until I've completed it.

Lex Fridman (1:21:48.500)

But it's finished.

Lex Fridman (1:21:50.160)

Well, finished is.

Dan Reynolds (1:21:51.000)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it sounds like a song.

Lex Fridman (1:21:52.860)

I certainly do a lot more with it after,

Dan Reynolds (1:21:55.060)

with the band, we'll pull it all apart.

Lex Fridman (1:21:56.740)

But it's a song.

Dan Reynolds (1:21:58.140)

It'll be like, you know, you'll listen to it and say,

Lex Fridman (1:22:00.620)

okay, that was a song.

Dan Reynolds (1:22:01.460)

I get, you understand what it is, for sure.

Lex Fridman (1:22:05.820)

Do you think, this is a painful question

Dan Reynolds (1:22:08.340)

from a fan perspective.

Lex Fridman (1:22:10.400)

Do you think there's genius on your computer

Lex Fridman (1:22:15.500)

that you walked away from that you just didn't notice it?

Lex Fridman (1:22:19.500)

Like, do you think there's truly great songs

Dan Reynolds (1:22:21.980)

that you've written that you just didn't notice

Lex Fridman (1:22:25.940)

how great they are?

Dan Reynolds (1:22:26.900)

I think greatness is something that I feel I'm,

Lex Fridman (1:22:32.340)

I don't feel like I've achieved greatness.

Dan Reynolds (1:22:34.660)

Genuine, I'm not saying that to you

Lex Fridman (1:22:36.300)

in a way of like humility, falseness.

Dan Reynolds (1:22:38.220)

Like Michael Jordan type.

Lex Fridman (1:22:39.660)

No, genuinely, I feel like I am on a journey right now

Dan Reynolds (1:22:45.020)

to find who I am.

Lex Fridman (1:22:46.300)

And I'm 34 and it's like, I don't even,

Dan Reynolds (1:22:48.980)

I haven't begun that journey.

Lex Fridman (1:22:50.920)

I feel like I'm just starting that.

Lex Fridman (1:22:52.980)

But that being said, I certainly don't know

Lex Fridman (1:22:59.180)

the right answer to what songs are, you know,

Dan Reynolds (1:23:02.120)

beloved or good to the masses.

Lex Fridman (1:23:04.180)

Like Imagine Dragons is such a massive entity.

Dan Reynolds (1:23:06.640)

It's like, there have been a, I will say this,

Lex Fridman (1:23:09.520)

there are a couple of times where I fought really hard

Dan Reynolds (1:23:12.260)

to decide on the single, really hard.

Lex Fridman (1:23:15.220)

Or I always fight for what goes on the record, always.

Dan Reynolds (1:23:17.920)

I always put the record together

Lex Fridman (1:23:19.220)

and that's the record that I wanted to be

Lex Fridman (1:23:20.820)

and me and the guys come up with that.

Lex Fridman (1:23:22.520)

And it's nobody else has influenced, no manager, no label.

Dan Reynolds (1:23:25.780)

The single, everybody wants to have a saying.

Lex Fridman (1:23:29.220)

Your label wants to have a saying in it.

Dan Reynolds (1:23:30.660)

Your manager wants to have a saying in it.

Lex Fridman (1:23:32.860)

And I have fought really hard over that.

Lex Fridman (1:23:35.260)

And I've been wrong before and I've been right before.

Lex Fridman (1:23:37.660)

But as far as songs that I haven't put out, I mean.

Dan Reynolds (1:23:43.040)

Because you can imagine so many songs,

Lex Fridman (1:23:44.560)

you think of so many Beatles songs

Dan Reynolds (1:23:47.800)

that are like some of their greats,

Lex Fridman (1:23:49.400)

while my guitar gently weeps.

Dan Reynolds (1:23:51.320)

I'm trying to imagine weird sounding,

Lex Fridman (1:23:55.360)

not that interesting possibly songs.

Dan Reynolds (1:23:57.440)

The majority of what we put them.

Lex Fridman (1:23:58.720)

Honestly, it may be our best stuff

Dan Reynolds (1:24:02.160)

is that we don't put out for instance.

Lex Fridman (1:24:03.640)

Because our band is such a, it's such a complex question.

Dan Reynolds (1:24:09.880)

I really don't know actually.

Lex Fridman (1:24:11.320)

I don't know, maybe one day I'll die

Lex Fridman (1:24:12.600)

and people will look and be like,

Lex Fridman (1:24:13.960)

I hated Imagine Dragons, but now I listen to that song.

Dan Reynolds (1:24:16.040)

I really liked that, wish they would put that out.

Lex Fridman (1:24:17.680)

Or maybe they'll be like, oh, it's all sounds like shit.

Dan Reynolds (1:24:19.400)

I don't really know.

Lex Fridman (1:24:21.440)

Well, that's, sorry, it is a tragic thing.

Dan Reynolds (1:24:24.420)

That's why I asked it, which is like,

Lex Fridman (1:24:27.080)

there could be some great, incredible things

Dan Reynolds (1:24:31.080)

that will take you a long time to rediscover,

Lex Fridman (1:24:35.360)

to realize how great they are.

Lex Fridman (1:24:36.920)

And it's also the tragic aspect of being an artist

Lex Fridman (1:24:40.840)

is you don't know, forget fame or all that kind of stuff.

Dan Reynolds (1:24:45.020)

You don't know what's going to really move people.

Lex Fridman (1:24:46.880)

Cause ultimately what you want is to connect with people

Lex Fridman (1:24:51.220)

and you don't know what that's going to be.

Lex Fridman (1:24:54.240)

It's hard, I mean, to me it's tragic

Dan Reynolds (1:24:57.280)

just as a fan of yours to see,

Lex Fridman (1:24:58.480)

maybe I wonder if there's like incredible stuff there.

Dan Reynolds (1:25:01.720)

Just as it is tragic to see great artists throughout history

Lex Fridman (1:25:04.400)

who didn't get recognition until they died.

Dan Reynolds (1:25:06.920)

It's like, cause they basically held on,

Lex Fridman (1:25:11.120)

Franz Kafka was extremely self critical.

Dan Reynolds (1:25:14.160)

A lot of these folks had an idea of what's good and not,

Lex Fridman (1:25:17.620)

and they were wrong.

Dan Reynolds (1:25:19.880)

They had genius, they weren't entirely wrong

Lex Fridman (1:25:23.440)

cause they became sufficiently popular,

Lex Fridman (1:25:25.320)

but it's interesting.

Lex Fridman (1:25:27.240)

I try to genuinely to release the songs

Dan Reynolds (1:25:29.840)

that move me the most.

Lex Fridman (1:25:31.560)

I'll say that.

Dan Reynolds (1:25:32.400)

You're your own audience.

Lex Fridman (1:25:34.000)

Yeah, I try to put out the songs that make me feel the most.

Dan Reynolds (1:25:39.000)

Like I feel that, that's my only gauge

Lex Fridman (1:25:42.640)

because it's so subjective of like, what is good?

Lex Fridman (1:25:45.480)

What's this?

Lex Fridman (1:25:46.320)

Nobody knows the song the masses are going to like.

Dan Reynolds (1:25:48.960)

Nobody knows that formula, nobody knows it.

Lex Fridman (1:25:51.000)

So for me, it's always what makes me feel something.

Dan Reynolds (1:25:53.400)

One of the main lessons Rick Rubin taught me

Lex Fridman (1:25:55.000)

when we worked with him on this record

Dan Reynolds (1:25:56.160)

was he would say, his main point

Lex Fridman (1:26:00.640)

that he would continually bring up when like,

Dan Reynolds (1:26:03.640)

cause he's not the type of person to be like,

Lex Fridman (1:26:05.100)

that's a bad song or that's good.

Dan Reynolds (1:26:06.680)

It's just not who Rick Rubin is.

Lex Fridman (1:26:07.800)

It's more like, there's more nuance to it.

Dan Reynolds (1:26:09.760)

He would say, I don't really believe you on that song.

Lex Fridman (1:26:15.880)

That's what he would say.

Dan Reynolds (1:26:16.960)

He would say, and I knew that was like,

Lex Fridman (1:26:19.920)

that song's a no go.

Dan Reynolds (1:26:21.320)

He would say, and I would genuinely,

Lex Fridman (1:26:23.280)

there was a time he said it and it was about a song

Dan Reynolds (1:26:24.920)

that I really like, I really felt it

Lex Fridman (1:26:27.760)

and meant it when I said it.

Lex Fridman (1:26:29.320)

But he didn't believe it when he heard it.

Lex Fridman (1:26:32.280)

And that was enough for, I was like,

Dan Reynolds (1:26:33.240)

man, well, at the end of the day,

Lex Fridman (1:26:35.080)

like I can believe it all I want,

Lex Fridman (1:26:36.400)

but if the listener doesn't feel the honesty in it,

Lex Fridman (1:26:39.360)

just like we were talking about earlier,

Dan Reynolds (1:26:40.360)

I think the most important ingredient is,

Lex Fridman (1:26:42.480)

is this truth, perceived as truth to someone else?

Lex Fridman (1:26:45.860)

And if it's not, the bullshit indicator goes,

Lex Fridman (1:26:48.080)

and you're like, I don't care, I don't throw it away.

Dan Reynolds (1:26:49.720)

I don't care about it.

Lex Fridman (1:26:50.560)

You said that he made you go through, like line by line,

Dan Reynolds (1:26:55.480)

the lyrics.

Lex Fridman (1:26:56.360)

Every single, it was excruciating for me.

Lex Fridman (1:26:59.860)

Why was that excruciating?

Lex Fridman (1:27:02.280)

Well, first of all, it's Rick Rubin.

Lex Fridman (1:27:03.920)

So you're in the room with like Rick Rubin,

Lex Fridman (1:27:06.520)

who's done a lot of the greatest of all time.

Lex Fridman (1:27:09.840)

And so I had to first just put that aside

Lex Fridman (1:27:13.480)

and be like, okay, well,

Dan Reynolds (1:27:14.320)

you've done a lot of my favorite records,

Lex Fridman (1:27:15.600)

but still you're human and not everything you say

Dan Reynolds (1:27:18.920)

is gonna be right.

Lex Fridman (1:27:20.280)

And I'm a strongly opinionated person,

Lex Fridman (1:27:22.000)

and so is Rick.

Lex Fridman (1:27:23.200)

And so when the two of us were sitting down in a room

Dan Reynolds (1:27:24.960)

together, it was, you know.

Lex Fridman (1:27:28.560)

But the lyrics, which is interesting.

Lex Fridman (1:27:30.160)

So it's not the entire composition,

Lex Fridman (1:27:32.360)

but just like, let's look at the lyrics.

Lex Fridman (1:27:34.240)

What do you mean here?

Lex Fridman (1:27:35.400)

Yeah, oh yeah, cause he would look over every,

Dan Reynolds (1:27:37.680)

there was like, and there were battles he won,

Lex Fridman (1:27:42.160)

battles that he didn't win, and maybe he was right.

Dan Reynolds (1:27:45.760)

I don't know.

Lex Fridman (1:27:46.600)

I mean, there was, for instance, I'll give you an example.

Dan Reynolds (1:27:48.120)

There was a song on the record called Number One.

Lex Fridman (1:27:50.760)

Rick will probably laugh when he hears this.

Dan Reynolds (1:27:54.080)

Cause this was a big one that we kept going back

Lex Fridman (1:27:55.960)

and forth on.

Lex Fridman (1:27:57.120)

But this will give you a good insight

Lex Fridman (1:27:58.440)

of what it was like.

Lex Fridman (1:28:01.120)

And there's a line in it that says,

Lex Fridman (1:28:03.800)

I don't know, the chorus is,

Dan Reynolds (1:28:04.800)

I don't know what I'm meant to be.

Lex Fridman (1:28:06.360)

I don't need no one to believe.

Dan Reynolds (1:28:08.320)

When it's all been said and done,

Lex Fridman (1:28:10.120)

I'm still my number one.

Lex Fridman (1:28:12.320)

And he was like, nah, it just makes me cringe

Lex Fridman (1:28:14.320)

when I hear that.

Dan Reynolds (1:28:15.160)

He's like, I just, like, do you have to be like,

Lex Fridman (1:28:19.800)

can it not be like, you're still my number one?

Lex Fridman (1:28:21.800)

And I was like, no, it's not about anybody else.

Lex Fridman (1:28:23.480)

Like, you know, it's about like self love.

Dan Reynolds (1:28:25.560)

He's like, yeah, but like, do you need to like talk

Lex Fridman (1:28:28.120)

about self love like that?

Lex Fridman (1:28:29.400)

And I was like, well, I feel like I need to.

Lex Fridman (1:28:31.680)

He's like, well, maybe, you know,

Dan Reynolds (1:28:33.040)

there's something else we could say there.

Lex Fridman (1:28:34.280)

Like we just kept, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:28:36.000)

we kept coming back to this song, okay?

Lex Fridman (1:28:38.200)

I was like, and I changed it.

Dan Reynolds (1:28:40.280)

I tried changing it.

Lex Fridman (1:28:41.720)

What did I change it to?

Dan Reynolds (1:28:42.560)

It was like, it wasn't you're still my number one,

Lex Fridman (1:28:44.600)

it just made no sense.

Dan Reynolds (1:28:45.560)

It wasn't about some love thing or like someone else.

Lex Fridman (1:28:49.680)

I changed it to something else.

Lex Fridman (1:28:50.920)

And it just, it was the one thing that I was like,

Lex Fridman (1:28:53.360)

I'm really sorry, Rick.

Dan Reynolds (1:28:54.560)

Like, I get it.

Lex Fridman (1:28:57.000)

And if it sounds cringy to you,

Dan Reynolds (1:28:58.120)

it's definitely sounding cringy to other people too.

Lex Fridman (1:28:59.720)

And that sucks.

Lex Fridman (1:29:00.560)

But I don't know how else to say this

Lex Fridman (1:29:02.520)

in a way that I want to put that song out anymore.

Lex Fridman (1:29:05.760)

But there were other songs for sure

Lex Fridman (1:29:07.400)

where Rick was like, that or this,

Dan Reynolds (1:29:09.840)

that word feels a little trite.

Lex Fridman (1:29:11.960)

You already said that once.

Lex Fridman (1:29:13.040)

Can you say it in a different way?

Lex Fridman (1:29:14.640)

It was really helpful.

Lex Fridman (1:29:15.600)

And then, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:29:16.800)

It's really interesting

Dan Reynolds (1:29:17.640)

because you're trying to say something so simply

Lex Fridman (1:29:21.840)

and yet not make it cringe.

Lex Fridman (1:29:24.120)

And that's really hard.

Lex Fridman (1:29:25.080)

That's a strange art form

Dan Reynolds (1:29:27.720)

because you want to say some of the greatest love songs.

Lex Fridman (1:29:30.720)

I mean, we looked at the Without You song.

Dan Reynolds (1:29:33.460)

I mean, that's the whole thing is cringy.

Lex Fridman (1:29:35.600)

If you just read it on paper, like it's a court report

Dan Reynolds (1:29:40.600)

or something, but yet it's not,

Lex Fridman (1:29:43.340)

especially when sung maybe.

Lex Fridman (1:29:45.520)

But no, there's something about, yeah, maybe.

Lex Fridman (1:29:49.400)

Sung in a way you believe it.

Dan Reynolds (1:29:50.920)

When you believe it,

Lex Fridman (1:29:52.020)

but also written in a way that's singable

Dan Reynolds (1:29:54.900)

in the way you believe it.

Lex Fridman (1:29:56.100)

So it's like.

Dan Reynolds (1:29:56.940)

Right.

Lex Fridman (1:29:57.780)

Right.

Lex Fridman (1:29:58.600)

And then.

Lex Fridman (1:29:59.440)

It rolls off.

Dan Reynolds (1:30:00.280)

It just comes out in a way that just feels like silky.

Lex Fridman (1:30:02.540)

No word catches your mind as cringy.

Dan Reynolds (1:30:05.940)

Yes.

Lex Fridman (1:30:06.780)

It's just.

Lex Fridman (1:30:08.100)

But then music, I think great speeches are like that too,

Lex Fridman (1:30:13.500)

or just conveying, communicating ideas simply.

Dan Reynolds (1:30:19.180)

That's the art form is to not be cringy.

Lex Fridman (1:30:22.420)

So interesting.

Lex Fridman (1:30:23.380)

And then yet, because like when you're raw and real,

Lex Fridman (1:30:29.700)

it might at first feel cringy.

Lex Fridman (1:30:32.800)

So the battle there,

Lex Fridman (1:30:34.520)

and that's where you see people fail.

Dan Reynolds (1:30:39.400)

Like just regular artists.

Lex Fridman (1:30:40.660)

Like, I don't know, at open mic,

Dan Reynolds (1:30:43.140)

I got open mic, so I just listen to musicians.

Lex Fridman (1:30:45.820)

Like when they write songs, like they fail that test.

Dan Reynolds (1:30:48.940)

They write simple stuff, but it's cringy.

Lex Fridman (1:30:50.900)

Why?

Lex Fridman (1:30:51.740)

I wonder what was that?

Lex Fridman (1:30:52.580)

Like, what is that?

Dan Reynolds (1:30:53.660)

I'm telling you, Lex,

Lex Fridman (1:30:54.480)

I tried to explain this to my brother the other day,

Dan Reynolds (1:30:58.040)

because it's the same thing with a live performance.

Lex Fridman (1:31:00.820)

If I'm not in my right head space and I walk on stage

Lex Fridman (1:31:03.980)

and I walk up and let's say I say something and I do this,

Lex Fridman (1:31:08.500)

because I'm like, this is the move, right?

Dan Reynolds (1:31:10.180)

I'm like, this is the move.

Lex Fridman (1:31:12.180)

The crowd doesn't care.

Dan Reynolds (1:31:13.460)

In fact, the crowd's like, that's cringy when you did this.

Lex Fridman (1:31:16.640)

But if I wasn't thinking about doing this

Lex Fridman (1:31:19.420)

and I went up there and I said something

Lex Fridman (1:31:21.460)

and I really meant it and my body was like,

Dan Reynolds (1:31:24.260)

I can't explain this to you,

Lex Fridman (1:31:25.420)

and it's so silly to say out loud,

Lex Fridman (1:31:28.340)

but people will resonate to it when it's real.

Lex Fridman (1:31:33.340)

And when it's acted, it doesn't,

Dan Reynolds (1:31:35.160)

you could do it the exact,

Lex Fridman (1:31:36.520)

the motion could look the same, your eyes look the same,

Lex Fridman (1:31:39.020)

but there's something about the energy that people know.

Lex Fridman (1:31:42.600)

They know if it's real or not.

Dan Reynolds (1:31:44.000)

Yeah, people have, like you said,

Lex Fridman (1:31:45.460)

incredible bullshit detectors.

Dan Reynolds (1:31:46.800)

That's why I love people. A hundred percent.

Lex Fridman (1:31:47.720)

I'll go on a stage and if I'm not in the right head space

Dan Reynolds (1:31:50.240)

to be real, it won't be a good show.

Lex Fridman (1:31:52.600)

If I'm real, then it's a good show.

Dan Reynolds (1:31:54.400)

It's as simple as that.

Lex Fridman (1:31:55.460)

Let's go through the song.

Dan Reynolds (1:31:59.200)

Like I said, great opener.

Lex Fridman (1:32:02.120)

So you had this in your mind,

Lex Fridman (1:32:03.160)

this landscape?

Lex Fridman (1:32:04.000)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dan Reynolds (1:32:11.380)

The beat was first on this.

Lex Fridman (1:32:13.780)

What about the first and the second,

Lex Fridman (1:32:16.120)

like first thing's first, second thing's second?

Lex Fridman (1:32:17.920)

The first line I wrote was first thing's first.

Dan Reynolds (1:32:21.140)

I don't know why, it just was like,

Lex Fridman (1:32:23.280)

and then I was like, oh, that principle of, you know.

Dan Reynolds (1:32:27.100)

Great line.

Lex Fridman (1:32:28.920)

Second thing's second.

Dan Reynolds (1:32:30.240)

Don't you tell me what you think that I could be.

Lex Fridman (1:32:33.600)

I'm the one at the sail, I'm the master of my sea.

Dan Reynolds (1:32:35.880)

I'm the master of my sea.

Lex Fridman (1:32:37.440)

My dad had that in his office.

Dan Reynolds (1:32:39.360)

He had this saying that was something about the sailor

Lex Fridman (1:32:44.520)

and being the master of his sea that I always loved.

Dan Reynolds (1:32:47.960)

There you go, simple statement.

Lex Fridman (1:32:49.840)

Yeah.

Dan Reynolds (1:32:50.680)

Zero cringe in it.

Lex Fridman (1:32:51.840)

It's so powerful.

Dan Reynolds (1:32:53.520)

It's so simple.

Lex Fridman (1:32:55.280)

I'm the master of my sea.

Dan Reynolds (1:32:56.280)

This whole song is just trivial,

Lex Fridman (1:32:59.600)

but in terms of lyrically,

Lex Fridman (1:33:03.760)

but extremely powerful and original, unique sounding,

Lex Fridman (1:33:06.940)

something about the words.

Dan Reynolds (1:33:08.420)

Just even, you don't have to actually sing them,

Lex Fridman (1:33:10.080)

you just read them.

Lex Fridman (1:33:12.000)

And then raw, I was broken from a young age,

Lex Fridman (1:33:14.960)

tuck myself into the masses, writing my poems for the few

Dan Reynolds (1:33:18.000)

that look at me, took to me, shook at me,

Lex Fridman (1:33:20.640)

feeling me, singing from the heartache, from the pain,

Dan Reynolds (1:33:23.000)

taking my message from the thing.

Lex Fridman (1:33:24.760)

I can't, why am I reciting your words to you?

Lex Fridman (1:33:27.520)

But the percussionist throughout it,

Lex Fridman (1:33:32.560)

and that was there in the beginning.

Dan Reynolds (1:33:34.320)

The percussion is almost in the lyrics, yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:33:36.280)

And I'm a very percussive singer

Dan Reynolds (1:33:37.640)

because I was a drummer first before I,

Lex Fridman (1:33:40.800)

I think same with Dave Grohl, probably a similar thing,

Dan Reynolds (1:33:44.120)

which is I think in percussive sense a lot when I'm writing

Lex Fridman (1:33:49.640)

and I also was, before I could play an instrument,

Dan Reynolds (1:33:52.820)

I would beatbox.

Lex Fridman (1:33:54.160)

And I think Michael Jackson did this too, actually.

Dan Reynolds (1:33:56.340)

I've heard in the studio that he was very similar,

Lex Fridman (1:33:58.520)

but a lot of what I do is percussive

Dan Reynolds (1:34:03.400)

because my brain thinks in percussively first.

Lex Fridman (1:34:07.840)

A little more, because it's so good.

Dan Reynolds (1:34:08.680)

It's almost like a drum, like,

Lex Fridman (1:34:09.680)

dka, dka, dka, dka, dka, dka, dka, dka, dka, dka, dka, dka.

Lex Fridman (1:34:14.400)

And then you lay words on that.

Lex Fridman (1:34:17.800)

Yeah.

Dan Reynolds (1:34:18.920)

Yeah, this.

Lex Fridman (1:34:19.760)

Tuck myself into the masses, writing my poems for the few

Dan Reynolds (1:34:22.760)

that look at me, took to me, shook at me, feeling me,

Lex Fridman (1:34:25.200)

it's almost like drums, dka, dka, dka, dka, dka, dka, dka, dka.

Dan Reynolds (1:34:30.840)

It's all building to the chorus.

Lex Fridman (1:34:34.440)

Hey, you made me a, you made me a believer, believer.

Dan Reynolds (1:34:40.240)

Hey, hey.

Lex Fridman (1:34:43.080)

What about the word pain?

Lex Fridman (1:34:45.400)

When did that come to you?

Lex Fridman (1:34:48.520)

Pain, you made me, you made me a believer.

Dan Reynolds (1:34:51.400)

Yeah, just the idea of,

Lex Fridman (1:34:53.040)

I just wanted to, I really,

Dan Reynolds (1:34:57.400)

one of the things that a lot of the songs that I like,

Lex Fridman (1:35:02.080)

I like divisiveness, for instance, not always,

Lex Fridman (1:35:05.400)

but there's times where I want someone to hear a song

Lex Fridman (1:35:07.320)

and I want them to either love it or hate it.

Dan Reynolds (1:35:09.120)

I really don't want them to be in the middle ground.

Lex Fridman (1:35:11.600)

A lot of the songs that,

Dan Reynolds (1:35:13.360)

like a lot of my favorite songs are divisive songs.

Lex Fridman (1:35:19.200)

And so for instance, with pain,

Dan Reynolds (1:35:22.480)

I want you to hear that in almost like, it's like, whoa.

Lex Fridman (1:35:26.360)

You know what I mean?

Dan Reynolds (1:35:27.200)

It's something either somebody is going to hear

Lex Fridman (1:35:29.320)

and they'll be like, man,

Dan Reynolds (1:35:30.160)

I just don't want to hear that like that.

Lex Fridman (1:35:31.440)

Or it's like, oh, I felt that so deeply

Dan Reynolds (1:35:33.360)

when he said that in that way, because it sounded like this.

Lex Fridman (1:35:35.640)

And when you think of the word pain, it's like,

Dan Reynolds (1:35:38.520)

that's a, at least for me, when I hear that word,

Lex Fridman (1:35:45.360)

it carries a lot of weight, carries a lot of weight.

Lex Fridman (1:35:48.180)

So I wanted to sing it with a lot of weight

Lex Fridman (1:35:50.520)

and to come into that chorus with like,

Dan Reynolds (1:35:52.760)

like it's a striking moment.

Lex Fridman (1:35:56.160)

And I'm also a tenor singing as,

Dan Reynolds (1:35:58.520)

sorry, I'm a baritone singing as a tenor.

Lex Fridman (1:36:01.280)

So that's where that natural,

Dan Reynolds (1:36:04.100)

like gruffness comes from is that I'm singing

Lex Fridman (1:36:05.880)

out of my range really, up in my head voice.

Lex Fridman (1:36:08.240)

And it carries a lot of weight with it

Lex Fridman (1:36:10.080)

because of the baritone.

Lex Fridman (1:36:12.240)

Can I ask you a specific sort of the pause before the pain?

Lex Fridman (1:36:17.600)

It's really interesting.

Dan Reynolds (1:36:18.500)

Cause it's like a double.

Lex Fridman (1:36:20.640)

What is that, how much work does that take

Lex Fridman (1:36:27.360)

to get that right?

Lex Fridman (1:36:28.200)

That's incredible.

Dan Reynolds (1:36:29.760)

Cause it's like a, so you're kind of seeing the beauty

Lex Fridman (1:36:33.000)

through the, and then that, whatever that sound is.

Dan Reynolds (1:36:36.560)

Right, the bass being rolled off.

Lex Fridman (1:36:38.040)

Yeah.

Dan Reynolds (1:36:39.480)

Yeah, I actually, when I first was approaching the chorus,

Lex Fridman (1:36:43.240)

it was actually seeing,

Dan Reynolds (1:36:44.720)

taking my message from the veins,

Lex Fridman (1:36:48.680)

taking my lesson from the veins,

Dan Reynolds (1:36:49.800)

seeing the beauty through the,

Lex Fridman (1:36:51.840)

seeing the beauty through the pain.

Dan Reynolds (1:36:53.920)

You made me a, like it came in on one.

Lex Fridman (1:36:56.260)

I'm not seeing it right right now, but it did not wait.

Lex Fridman (1:36:59.080)

And it felt like it didn't hit

Lex Fridman (1:37:02.440)

in the way that it was supposed to hit.

Lex Fridman (1:37:04.000)

Because the, you predict that, right?

Lex Fridman (1:37:07.300)

You're like, you're waiting to see the beauty

Lex Fridman (1:37:09.200)

through the pain, you made me a, right?

Lex Fridman (1:37:11.080)

It was like the beauty through the pain.

Dan Reynolds (1:37:13.320)

You made me a, made me.

Lex Fridman (1:37:15.200)

So I wanted to feel a little more like striking,

Dan Reynolds (1:37:17.720)

like, again, it's like that thing that makes you

Lex Fridman (1:37:19.960)

kind of do this a little bit.

Lex Fridman (1:37:20.960)

You're like, huh?

Lex Fridman (1:37:22.160)

But once you hear it a few times, you're like, ah, ah.

Lex Fridman (1:37:25.160)

And you predict, you know what I mean?

Lex Fridman (1:37:26.320)

It's like, I'd rather someone hear our song the first time

Lex Fridman (1:37:29.200)

and be confused by it.

Lex Fridman (1:37:31.320)

So they play it the second time.

Lex Fridman (1:37:33.120)

And then they're like, oh, okay.

Lex Fridman (1:37:34.440)

You know what I mean?

Dan Reynolds (1:37:35.280)

Like, I really don't want, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:37:39.400)

I'd rather turn some people off along the way.

Lex Fridman (1:37:41.800)

And then the people who come along for you

Lex Fridman (1:37:43.560)

are gonna feel more committed, I think.

Dan Reynolds (1:37:46.960)

It's just an interesting, like,

Lex Fridman (1:37:49.120)

it feels gutsy to insert silence, you know?

Dan Reynolds (1:37:53.080)

Yeah, that's what makes it, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:37:54.240)

it's like the greatest speakers of all time are like,

Lex Fridman (1:37:57.080)

and I told you.

Lex Fridman (1:37:59.240)

Right.

Dan Reynolds (1:38:00.760)

You would know, I mean, it's like, you're like, oh.

Lex Fridman (1:38:04.280)

Yeah, what is that?

Dan Reynolds (1:38:05.840)

Yeah, that's so interesting to do that

Lex Fridman (1:38:07.840)

just at the right time.

Lex Fridman (1:38:09.080)

And then, and then pain, right?

Lex Fridman (1:38:13.480)

Man, it's a brilliant song.

Lex Fridman (1:38:15.880)

Did you know it was a good song when you wrote it?

Lex Fridman (1:38:18.720)

Out of the thousands of songs you've written?

Dan Reynolds (1:38:20.800)

You know, it's always the same thing for me,

Lex Fridman (1:38:23.040)

which is like, if I wanna listen to the song

Lex Fridman (1:38:28.320)

and I wanna listen to it a lot of times,

Lex Fridman (1:38:29.680)

then those are the songs we put out.

Lex Fridman (1:38:31.840)

And I only wanna listen to the songs

Lex Fridman (1:38:33.560)

that make me feel something.

Dan Reynolds (1:38:35.040)

Whether or not it's like,

Lex Fridman (1:38:36.600)

our single that did the very worst of all our singles

Dan Reynolds (1:38:39.920)

was the song that I wanted to listen to the least,

Lex Fridman (1:38:42.880)

but it made the most sense as a single,

Lex Fridman (1:38:45.000)

which was all the wrong reason to choose it, right?

Lex Fridman (1:38:46.680)

It was, I Bet My Life is the single off our second album.

Lex Fridman (1:38:50.520)

And that song was originally written,

Lex Fridman (1:38:51.840)

it was just a guitar and a vocal,

Lex Fridman (1:38:53.240)

and it was very just quiet and laid back.

Lex Fridman (1:38:56.320)

And we were like, well, let's try to dial it up,

Dan Reynolds (1:38:59.160)

let's try to produce it.

Lex Fridman (1:39:00.040)

And we overproduced that song.

Dan Reynolds (1:39:01.960)

We self produced it as a band and we overproduced.

Lex Fridman (1:39:05.440)

And that song, I mean, it did good in terms of a song,

Lex Fridman (1:39:10.440)

but for us, it did not do good compared to other songs.

Lex Fridman (1:39:14.200)

And I really look back at that

Lex Fridman (1:39:15.960)

and learned a lesson from that.

Lex Fridman (1:39:17.160)

It's like, if I don't wanna listen to the song,

Dan Reynolds (1:39:20.600)

that's a sign already.

Lex Fridman (1:39:21.880)

If you don't wanna listen to your own song,

Dan Reynolds (1:39:23.880)

it's probably not a good song.

Lex Fridman (1:39:25.040)

Yeah.

Dan Reynolds (1:39:26.560)

You said your dad, elsewhere and today,

Lex Fridman (1:39:30.320)

just said that your dad early on was a kind of the early

Dan Reynolds (1:39:36.280)

Rick Rubin.

Lex Fridman (1:39:37.120)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:39:38.280)

So when you were starting out, he gave you feedback,

Lex Fridman (1:39:41.880)

you listened.

Lex Fridman (1:39:44.000)

What did you learn about music about life from your dad?

Lex Fridman (1:39:48.400)

My dad is a really quiet farm, grew up on a farm,

Dan Reynolds (1:39:53.080)

very humble.

Lex Fridman (1:39:54.280)

And I think he starts every sentence by saying,

Dan Reynolds (1:40:00.680)

this is just my two cents, pretty much.

Lex Fridman (1:40:02.840)

You know what I mean?

Dan Reynolds (1:40:03.680)

It's like, take it or leave it.

Lex Fridman (1:40:05.240)

Like, you know what I mean?

Dan Reynolds (1:40:06.080)

He's that kind of a sense, like there's humility

Lex Fridman (1:40:08.240)

in everything and it's real for him.

Dan Reynolds (1:40:09.960)

It's not like false humility.

Lex Fridman (1:40:12.400)

I really feel like when he's saying things,

Dan Reynolds (1:40:14.160)

he really is like, maybe this isn't any worth to you son.

Lex Fridman (1:40:17.480)

And he means it, but here it is.

Lex Fridman (1:40:19.360)

And it's always gold.

Lex Fridman (1:40:20.200)

And I'm like, wow, dad, that's incredible.

Lex Fridman (1:40:22.600)

So what, in those early days of you like,

Lex Fridman (1:40:24.880)

so you were like 12 or something like that,

Dan Reynolds (1:40:26.480)

like starting to write songs.

Lex Fridman (1:40:27.320)

I was 12, I wasn't showing my music to anyone.

Dan Reynolds (1:40:30.040)

I started writing right when I was 12

Lex Fridman (1:40:31.280)

and I probably wrote for at least,

Dan Reynolds (1:40:33.120)

let's say six months or something.

Lex Fridman (1:40:34.480)

And I had written probably, I don't know,

Dan Reynolds (1:40:36.280)

like a lot of songs during that time.

Lex Fridman (1:40:38.560)

What was the topic by the way?

Lex Fridman (1:40:39.640)

Love, anger?

Lex Fridman (1:40:40.480)

It was all sad.

Dan Reynolds (1:40:41.960)

No, it was, the first song I ever wrote went,

Lex Fridman (1:40:53.320)

and it was like a bluesy thing.

Dan Reynolds (1:40:54.280)

It was like, there was my voice doing that.

Lex Fridman (1:40:55.720)

And then it was like,

Dan Reynolds (1:40:56.560)

all by himself, no other one around.

Lex Fridman (1:41:01.760)

And he stood all alone.

Lex Fridman (1:41:04.440)

When would he be found?

Lex Fridman (1:41:07.640)

Did he want company?

Lex Fridman (1:41:10.120)

Or was he fine on his own?

Lex Fridman (1:41:13.480)

Everyone needs a friend.

Lex Fridman (1:41:15.920)

So why was he all alone?

Lex Fridman (1:41:21.120)

You know, it is like, but I was like a 12 year old with,

Dan Reynolds (1:41:24.760)

I just felt like depressed for the first time.

Lex Fridman (1:41:28.880)

And I was, and I just was like, so.

Dan Reynolds (1:41:31.560)

I think he discovered the blues as a 12 year old.

Lex Fridman (1:41:33.040)

Yeah, right, right.

Dan Reynolds (1:41:34.360)

It really was, it was like my sense of the blues

Lex Fridman (1:41:36.080)

at that time for sure, like bad version of the blues.

Lex Fridman (1:41:38.080)

But it was like 12 year old kid with a bunch of acne.

Lex Fridman (1:41:40.920)

And like, I just like, I hated going to school.

Dan Reynolds (1:41:43.880)

I felt like that I just had not found myself.

Lex Fridman (1:41:46.680)

Sounds like a great song, by the way.

Lex Fridman (1:41:48.000)

But anyway, I wanted to keep listening.

Lex Fridman (1:41:49.480)

I forgot I was.

Dan Reynolds (1:41:50.320)

Yeah, I don't know about that, but yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:41:55.160)

Yeah, what was your dad,

Lex Fridman (1:41:56.400)

at which point did you begin to share it with your dad?

Lex Fridman (1:41:58.560)

A lot of the songs that I wrote in the beginning

Dan Reynolds (1:42:00.120)

were very much like Bobby McFerrin like that,

Lex Fridman (1:42:02.120)

because our, Mike was in a part of the house

Dan Reynolds (1:42:05.240)

where I couldn't bring over the piano.

Lex Fridman (1:42:06.480)

And the only instrument I played at the time

Dan Reynolds (1:42:07.840)

was the piano.

Lex Fridman (1:42:09.520)

So I would do everything with my voice.

Lex Fridman (1:42:11.120)

But then I started teaching myself the guitar

Lex Fridman (1:42:13.200)

in those, in that beginning, like six month period,

Dan Reynolds (1:42:15.200)

just watching my brothers play in their garage bands

Lex Fridman (1:42:17.360)

in the basement.

Lex Fridman (1:42:18.320)

And then I started to write songs

Lex Fridman (1:42:19.280)

a little bit more like Enya vibes,

Dan Reynolds (1:42:20.720)

like stack my voice like 20, 30 times.

Lex Fridman (1:42:22.920)

And like Enya meets like Jaray,

Dan Reynolds (1:42:26.320)

which is who my dad would listen to a lot.

Lex Fridman (1:42:28.360)

John Michael Jaray, he's an incredible synth genius.

Lex Fridman (1:42:31.280)

But anyway, so I finally got my like gall up enough

Lex Fridman (1:42:36.280)

to show it to my dad one day after work.

Lex Fridman (1:42:38.320)

And I got very little of my dad

Lex Fridman (1:42:39.800)

because there were nine kids and he worked

Dan Reynolds (1:42:41.320)

from 8 a.m. till 6 p.m.

Lex Fridman (1:42:43.680)

We'll come home very tired.

Lex Fridman (1:42:44.680)

And here's nine kids that are like, dad, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:42:47.320)

and you're the young one.

Dan Reynolds (1:42:48.160)

You're not, you're just gonna miss.

Lex Fridman (1:42:49.480)

I was in the middle kind of too.

Lex Fridman (1:42:50.720)

So it's even, you know, middle child thing.

Lex Fridman (1:42:53.360)

But I sat him down and I was like,

Dan Reynolds (1:42:54.480)

hey dad, I just wanna like kind of show you a song.

Lex Fridman (1:42:57.360)

And he was like, oh, you know,

Dan Reynolds (1:42:58.840)

he didn't know I was writing anything.

Lex Fridman (1:43:00.320)

And I showed it to him and he listened

Lex Fridman (1:43:02.720)

and he took it off and he really looked at me.

Lex Fridman (1:43:04.160)

And he was like, that was really good.

Dan Reynolds (1:43:06.920)

He was like, I've thought, and this,

Lex Fridman (1:43:08.640)

when you said this, it made me feel this.

Dan Reynolds (1:43:10.440)

He was like, and that did it.

Lex Fridman (1:43:12.040)

I probably would have given up music.

Dan Reynolds (1:43:14.320)

Like I look back, that was a very pivotal moment for me.

Lex Fridman (1:43:17.520)

I was like in a place where I was like, is this good, bad?

Dan Reynolds (1:43:20.920)

I don't know, maybe it's so embarrassing and terrible.

Lex Fridman (1:43:23.960)

And I was already writing lyrics

Dan Reynolds (1:43:25.160)

that were a little like overly metaphorical to hide

Lex Fridman (1:43:27.480)

that I was dealing with faith crisis.

Dan Reynolds (1:43:29.200)

Cause I thought, okay, I'm gonna show this to dad.

Lex Fridman (1:43:31.240)

I don't want my dad to know I'm like questioning

Dan Reynolds (1:43:33.360)

the truthfulness of Joseph Smith.

Lex Fridman (1:43:35.560)

So I'm not gonna be like, is Joseph Smith a real prophet?

Lex Fridman (1:43:38.560)

Is Mormonism true?

Lex Fridman (1:43:39.760)

I don't really know.

Lex Fridman (1:43:40.600)

Like, you know what I mean?

Lex Fridman (1:43:41.440)

I was like writing way overly metaphorical,

Lex Fridman (1:43:43.480)

but because my dad really validated it

Lex Fridman (1:43:46.000)

and he was a no bullshit person.

Lex Fridman (1:43:47.840)

So I knew when my dad said that, I was like, you know what?

Lex Fridman (1:43:50.080)

At least my dad really actually thinks this is cool.

Lex Fridman (1:43:52.400)

And I really trusted my dad's taste

Lex Fridman (1:43:54.520)

and thought everything he listened to was cool.

Lex Fridman (1:43:56.840)

So I was like, wow, I'm gonna keep doing this.

Lex Fridman (1:43:59.120)

And I just showed it to my dad for years and years.

Lex Fridman (1:44:01.080)

And still to this day, I send every song to my dad.

Lex Fridman (1:44:03.160)

So he underneath it with the feedback is always like,

Dan Reynolds (1:44:06.520)

Ooh, I like this idea.

Lex Fridman (1:44:07.480)

I like this.

Dan Reynolds (1:44:08.320)

It's just a positive, like a.

Lex Fridman (1:44:09.160)

Not always positive, no.

Lex Fridman (1:44:10.400)

But like underneath it, do you sense the positivity?

Lex Fridman (1:44:13.000)

Cause I think that's. Always.

Dan Reynolds (1:44:15.080)

Never mean, never malicious.

Lex Fridman (1:44:19.640)

You know, there's like, there's two types of criticism.

Dan Reynolds (1:44:21.440)

There's like criticism that's just like,

Lex Fridman (1:44:22.840)

you're looking to be hurtful to someone.

Lex Fridman (1:44:24.680)

And then there's criticism that's like

Lex Fridman (1:44:26.560)

really important for art.

Dan Reynolds (1:44:28.600)

It's the type of criticism that's like,

Lex Fridman (1:44:30.700)

you see the value in what's happening.

Lex Fridman (1:44:32.480)

And if it's honest, then you can,

Lex Fridman (1:44:34.360)

you maybe communicate with that person.

Dan Reynolds (1:44:35.980)

Like I, I see what you're trying to do with that.

Lex Fridman (1:44:39.280)

You know, it's not even like you have to say that

Dan Reynolds (1:44:40.800)

or whatever, like butter it up.

Lex Fridman (1:44:42.020)

But it's like, my dad would just give me the,

Dan Reynolds (1:44:45.200)

this honest criticism that would be like, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:44:50.400)

it certainly wasn't always good,

Lex Fridman (1:44:51.760)

but I knew it was always well intentioned.

Lex Fridman (1:44:53.540)

I guess that's, that's how I would say.

Dan Reynolds (1:44:55.200)

You mentioned, made me re listen to it.

Lex Fridman (1:44:57.260)

I'm a big fan of Cass Stevens.

Dan Reynolds (1:44:58.600)

You made me re listen to father and son.

Lex Fridman (1:45:00.640)

I probably all sons have issues

Dan Reynolds (1:45:03.280)

to work through with their fathers.

Lex Fridman (1:45:07.120)

And you said that you connect with this song in particular.

Dan Reynolds (1:45:10.560)

I think, so you're a father now.

Lex Fridman (1:45:13.180)

What is it about the song that connects with you?

Dan Reynolds (1:45:16.200)

For people, let me play it, let me play a little bit.

Lex Fridman (1:45:19.540)

People should educate themselves on Cass Stevens.

Dan Reynolds (1:45:21.940)

Oh my gosh.

Lex Fridman (1:45:22.780)

Right on the peace train.

Dan Reynolds (1:45:23.620)

The best, the best, right on the peace train.

Lex Fridman (1:45:27.000)

You think this is a hopeful, a sad song?

Dan Reynolds (1:45:29.840)

I hear it as hopeful.

Lex Fridman (1:45:31.160)

I hear it as a loving father saying

Dan Reynolds (1:45:33.520)

just what his son needs to hear.

Lex Fridman (1:45:34.840)

It's not time to make a change.

Dan Reynolds (1:45:38.260)

Just relax, take it easy.

Lex Fridman (1:45:42.040)

You're still young.

Dan Reynolds (1:45:43.920)

That's your fault.

Lex Fridman (1:45:45.760)

There's so much you have.

Dan Reynolds (1:45:47.720)

It's like that calm wisdom.

Lex Fridman (1:45:50.600)

Yeah.

Dan Reynolds (1:45:51.440)

This time.

Lex Fridman (1:45:52.260)

It wise.

Dan Reynolds (1:45:53.100)

If you want, you can marry, look at me.

Lex Fridman (1:45:57.900)

I am old, but I'm happy.

Lex Fridman (1:46:01.340)

And just the way he says that,

Lex Fridman (1:46:02.180)

like that should be a corny line,

Lex Fridman (1:46:03.180)

but it's not corny at all.

Lex Fridman (1:46:04.220)

It's like.

Dan Reynolds (1:46:05.060)

Once like you are now.

Lex Fridman (1:46:07.060)

Look at me, I'm old, but I'm happy.

Dan Reynolds (1:46:09.020)

It's not easy to be calm

Lex Fridman (1:46:13.100)

when you found something going on.

Dan Reynolds (1:46:15.860)

Yeah, I mean, the simplicity there,

Lex Fridman (1:46:17.620)

and it's such a contrast with, what's his name?

Dan Reynolds (1:46:24.020)

Harry Chapman with the cats in the cradle,

Lex Fridman (1:46:26.340)

which is like the sadness of,

Lex Fridman (1:46:33.500)

so this feels like there's a wise,

Lex Fridman (1:46:38.380)

calm connection between father and son, right?

Dan Reynolds (1:46:42.100)

With cats in the cradle.

Lex Fridman (1:46:44.540)

I don't know if you remember that song.

Dan Reynolds (1:46:47.620)

He learned to walk while I was away

Lex Fridman (1:46:49.420)

and he was talking before I knew it.

Lex Fridman (1:46:51.900)

And as he grew, he'd say, I'm going to be like you dad.

Lex Fridman (1:46:54.680)

You know, I'm going to be like you.

Lex Fridman (1:46:56.020)

And the idea of that song is

Lex Fridman (1:46:58.620)

that he does become like his dad,

Dan Reynolds (1:47:01.940)

which is funny, you know, something you've said.

Lex Fridman (1:47:05.260)

But in a different way,

Dan Reynolds (1:47:06.460)

you become too busy to make that connection.

Lex Fridman (1:47:09.260)

His dad was too busy to make a connection with his son.

Lex Fridman (1:47:12.380)

And in a, not in a dramatic way,

Lex Fridman (1:47:14.380)

in a very kind of calm, natural way.

Dan Reynolds (1:47:16.340)

Like you don't, you just don't have time.

Lex Fridman (1:47:19.340)

You're busy at work, you're providing for the family

Lex Fridman (1:47:21.980)

and so on, there's connection.

Lex Fridman (1:47:23.220)

But if you don't really get,

Dan Reynolds (1:47:24.660)

form that like depth of connection.

Lex Fridman (1:47:27.060)

And then the father, when the son shows up from college

Lex Fridman (1:47:31.020)

and all that kind of stuff,

Lex Fridman (1:47:31.860)

he doesn't spend any time with the father.

Dan Reynolds (1:47:34.060)

All that, and just the calm sadness of that,

Lex Fridman (1:47:37.300)

that we live, we can live parallel lives

Lex Fridman (1:47:40.340)

and never quite connect.

Lex Fridman (1:47:42.100)

And there is a little bit of that in father and son

Dan Reynolds (1:47:44.220)

with Cat Stevens too, you know,

Lex Fridman (1:47:45.580)

like when the son is saying,

Dan Reynolds (1:47:48.420)

from the moment that I could talk, I was ordered to listen.

Lex Fridman (1:47:51.580)

I always remember listening to that line,

Dan Reynolds (1:47:54.060)

feeling like that really moved me.

Lex Fridman (1:47:56.980)

But the beauty of that song is it shows,

Dan Reynolds (1:47:59.700)

it's kind of like the theme of what I feel like

Lex Fridman (1:48:01.860)

we've talked about since the second you got here,

Dan Reynolds (1:48:03.500)

which is something I really like.

Lex Fridman (1:48:05.020)

I don't know why it's such an important theme

Dan Reynolds (1:48:06.540)

in my life right now, but the duality of just understanding

Lex Fridman (1:48:11.340)

that you don't understand someone else's situation.

Lex Fridman (1:48:14.580)

And there's truth to both sides.

Lex Fridman (1:48:16.620)

Like there's truth to what the father is saying to the son.

Dan Reynolds (1:48:19.140)

He's like saying these things and he's like,

Lex Fridman (1:48:20.740)

I'm looking out for you, I love you.

Dan Reynolds (1:48:23.380)

Take your time with these things.

Lex Fridman (1:48:24.460)

If you want to get married, you know you can.

Dan Reynolds (1:48:26.020)

Like these things will bring you up.

Lex Fridman (1:48:27.020)

And then the son saying, listen,

Dan Reynolds (1:48:29.500)

like I want to pave my own path.

Lex Fridman (1:48:31.180)

I want to do this.

Lex Fridman (1:48:32.020)

Like, why are you telling me this?

Lex Fridman (1:48:33.300)

Like the son's not wrong.

Dan Reynolds (1:48:36.180)

Cause there's a lot of parents who tell their kids

Lex Fridman (1:48:37.540)

what to do and they're wrong, you know what I mean?

Dan Reynolds (1:48:40.180)

Like, and they don't let the kid form the path

Lex Fridman (1:48:43.820)

that they need to, but should you not be a parent?

Lex Fridman (1:48:47.380)

Like, you know what I mean?

Lex Fridman (1:48:48.220)

There's just two sides to it.

Dan Reynolds (1:48:49.060)

There's a thing, it is annoying when you're older,

Lex Fridman (1:48:54.860)

you get to see people do all the same things.

Dan Reynolds (1:48:58.260)

You could say, well, this is a phase and you'll see

Lex Fridman (1:49:05.820)

that this actually will end up in this way.

Dan Reynolds (1:49:08.260)

You can like predict how the life unrolls.

Lex Fridman (1:49:10.260)

And it's very annoying for young people to hear,

Dan Reynolds (1:49:12.380)

especially cause it's probably going to be true.

Lex Fridman (1:49:14.020)

It's like, no, it's not going to be like this.

Dan Reynolds (1:49:16.380)

No, I'm going to be different.

Lex Fridman (1:49:17.300)

But then you become that person.

Lex Fridman (1:49:18.940)

But that doesn't mean they also let them live that life.

Lex Fridman (1:49:22.660)

Let them make the mistakes,

Lex Fridman (1:49:24.740)

but they're not mistakes actually.

Lex Fridman (1:49:26.340)

They're like beautiful deviations

Dan Reynolds (1:49:30.660)

from the path that they end up on.

Lex Fridman (1:49:34.500)

And those make the path.

Lex Fridman (1:49:38.180)

Do you have advice for young folks today?

Lex Fridman (1:49:43.060)

You've had like an incredible dark journey

Lex Fridman (1:49:48.060)

and a successful one, a loving one,

Lex Fridman (1:49:52.220)

and one of the most successful artists in the world.

Dan Reynolds (1:49:55.940)

Is there advice you can give to young people today

Lex Fridman (1:49:58.420)

that would like to find themselves to that way,

Lex Fridman (1:50:01.140)

especially if they're struggling?

Lex Fridman (1:50:02.580)

I thought you said device at first.

Lex Fridman (1:50:04.060)

And I was like, honestly,

Lex Fridman (1:50:05.780)

I feel like that device is not helping.

Dan Reynolds (1:50:07.700)

Maybe everybody should get away,

Lex Fridman (1:50:10.940)

throw away their devices.

Dan Reynolds (1:50:12.820)

Advice.

Lex Fridman (1:50:13.820)

I would just say like what I emphasize to my kids

Dan Reynolds (1:50:20.580)

is I really, really want my kids

Lex Fridman (1:50:24.580)

to just learn to love themself.

Dan Reynolds (1:50:27.260)

It's easier said than done.

Lex Fridman (1:50:29.820)

It's really easy to pick on yourself in life.

Dan Reynolds (1:50:33.220)

It's really easy to look in the mirror

Lex Fridman (1:50:35.860)

and wish you looked different,

Dan Reynolds (1:50:37.540)

wish you were more successful like that person over there,

Lex Fridman (1:50:41.300)

wish that, you know, wish a lot of things.

Lex Fridman (1:50:45.580)

And people that I see that really succeed at life

Lex Fridman (1:50:52.100)

really succeed truly.

Lex Fridman (1:50:53.580)

And that doesn't mean they're making money necessarily

Lex Fridman (1:50:55.740)

or they're succeeding.

Dan Reynolds (1:50:56.620)

And, you know, they're talking to a lot of people

Lex Fridman (1:50:58.620)

like their success, success to me is like happy

Lex Fridman (1:51:03.300)

and real, they have real self love.

Lex Fridman (1:51:06.140)

You meet, you know, when you meet someone,

Dan Reynolds (1:51:07.700)

you meet Rick, for instance, you meet Rick Rubin.

Lex Fridman (1:51:10.700)

Rick has a calmness about him.

Lex Fridman (1:51:12.180)

And it's funny because everybody sees him

Lex Fridman (1:51:13.620)

as this like Zen master.

Dan Reynolds (1:51:16.460)

Like Rick is just a really loving person

Lex Fridman (1:51:22.500)

who also loves himself and has self confidence

Dan Reynolds (1:51:24.820)

because you just see it and it resonates.

Lex Fridman (1:51:26.940)

And that's why he draws people.

Lex Fridman (1:51:28.060)

And that's why he's so great in the studio

Lex Fridman (1:51:29.380)

because you know his intentions, always.

Dan Reynolds (1:51:31.740)

As an artist, when a producer comes in, you're like,

Lex Fridman (1:51:33.900)

whoa, whoa, whoa, what are your intentions?

Lex Fridman (1:51:35.940)

What are you trying to do?

Lex Fridman (1:51:36.780)

Are you trying to get a hit out of me for the label?

Lex Fridman (1:51:38.460)

Are you trying to make me something?

Lex Fridman (1:51:40.020)

Are you trying to like make me this

Lex Fridman (1:51:41.340)

so you can prove this about yourself?

Lex Fridman (1:51:42.660)

Like there's a lot in that dynamic.

Lex Fridman (1:51:44.740)

And the reason that Rick is so good is because

Lex Fridman (1:51:47.420)

you know his intentions and his intentions come

Dan Reynolds (1:51:50.460)

because Rick has that self love.

Lex Fridman (1:51:52.020)

So for me, find the things about yourself

Dan Reynolds (1:51:56.300)

because they're there that you love

Lex Fridman (1:51:59.580)

and really focus in on them.

Lex Fridman (1:52:01.700)

And it's not selfish.

Lex Fridman (1:52:02.740)

Like I feel like I was brought up in a family too

Dan Reynolds (1:52:05.140)

where it was like, never look inward, like be selfless.

Lex Fridman (1:52:09.940)

Like serve, serve, serve.

Dan Reynolds (1:52:11.340)

Which by the way, is a true principle of life.

Lex Fridman (1:52:14.220)

I think you love yourself more when you serve more.

Dan Reynolds (1:52:16.420)

I think that's really evident in life.

Lex Fridman (1:52:19.140)

But also spend time doing the things that make you happy.

Dan Reynolds (1:52:22.660)

Take time every day to go on that walk

Lex Fridman (1:52:24.380)

that you need to go on.

Dan Reynolds (1:52:25.660)

Listen to that book tape that you need to listen to.

Lex Fridman (1:52:28.060)

Like for me, that's something I need.

Dan Reynolds (1:52:29.940)

I know if I do that, I'm gonna be a better dad

Lex Fridman (1:52:31.700)

because I gave myself some love back in life.

Lex Fridman (1:52:37.420)

And just forgive yourself.

Lex Fridman (1:52:39.740)

I think forgive yourself because everybody messes up.

Dan Reynolds (1:52:42.020)

Everybody hurts others.

Lex Fridman (1:52:43.340)

Everybody says unkind words at times.

Dan Reynolds (1:52:45.500)

Everybody fails all the time.

Lex Fridman (1:52:49.740)

And if you think that you're gonna not, you're wrong.

Lex Fridman (1:52:52.940)

And you're eventually going to

Lex Fridman (1:52:54.020)

and you're either gonna punish yourself for it every day

Lex Fridman (1:52:56.700)

and be a lesser version of what you could be

Lex Fridman (1:52:59.380)

or you're gonna forgive yourself for it.

Lex Fridman (1:53:01.540)

And if you learned that that's not something you want

Lex Fridman (1:53:03.340)

then try not to do it again.

Dan Reynolds (1:53:04.460)

If you do it again and you're probably gonna do it again,

Lex Fridman (1:53:06.620)

whatever that is, you're gonna gossip about that person.

Dan Reynolds (1:53:09.260)

You're gonna feel bad

Lex Fridman (1:53:10.100)

because then you gossiped about someone.

Lex Fridman (1:53:12.340)

Is there something you could say in terms of self love?

Lex Fridman (1:53:14.980)

Is there a role for being critical?

Dan Reynolds (1:53:17.660)

Like those demons of self criticism,

Lex Fridman (1:53:20.540)

do you need a little bit of that?

Dan Reynolds (1:53:21.780)

Tom Waits talks about,

Lex Fridman (1:53:23.100)

I like my Tom with a little drop of poison.

Lex Fridman (1:53:25.420)

Need a little poison?

Lex Fridman (1:53:27.420)

Or is that silly?

Lex Fridman (1:53:29.460)

Or a mental situation of poison?

Lex Fridman (1:53:31.020)

Look, my biggest thing in life that has been

Dan Reynolds (1:53:35.140)

the thing that I've worked on the hardest

Lex Fridman (1:53:36.660)

for the last few years is to not be overly critical.

Lex Fridman (1:53:42.540)

And to let go of control.

Lex Fridman (1:53:45.860)

I think it's really easy to kill an artist.

Dan Reynolds (1:53:53.340)

It's really easy to kill an artist.

Lex Fridman (1:53:55.100)

Like if my dad would have sat down with me that day

Lex Fridman (1:53:58.020)

and even if he would have just sat down and been like,

Lex Fridman (1:54:01.420)

good job son, okay.

Lex Fridman (1:54:02.740)

It's not silly, right?

Lex Fridman (1:54:03.580)

Like I didn't, not everybody has a dad

Dan Reynolds (1:54:05.620)

who's gonna ever do something

Lex Fridman (1:54:07.540)

or put in the time or whatever.

Lex Fridman (1:54:09.220)

But that might've altered everything for me.

Lex Fridman (1:54:14.620)

Like my dad taking the extra time

Dan Reynolds (1:54:16.220)

to just give me a thoughtful response opposed to,

Lex Fridman (1:54:19.340)

kids know, kids know when you're just like

Dan Reynolds (1:54:21.580)

trying to get out of the room or whatever.

Lex Fridman (1:54:23.060)

I knew he wasn't and that did a lot.

Lex Fridman (1:54:25.820)

So yeah.

Lex Fridman (1:54:26.660)

But is that a huge, isn't that what makes the artist?

Dan Reynolds (1:54:30.740)

It's the fragility of it that like,

Lex Fridman (1:54:34.700)

would you have it any other way?

Dan Reynolds (1:54:37.700)

No, no, I agree with you.

Lex Fridman (1:54:40.060)

I think that that's what, that's the beauty of art.

Lex Fridman (1:54:45.940)

But I think also on the same token, it's like,

Lex Fridman (1:54:51.620)

I went to Music Cares recently,

Dan Reynolds (1:54:54.460)

which is a charity for musicians

Lex Fridman (1:54:56.860)

that are down on their luck.

Dan Reynolds (1:54:58.340)

That maybe were successful at one point

Lex Fridman (1:54:59.780)

or have never been successful

Lex Fridman (1:55:00.940)

and they can't even pay the bills

Lex Fridman (1:55:02.380)

and this charity contributes money to these artists,

Dan Reynolds (1:55:05.420)

aspiring artists or artists who've had drug issues.

Lex Fridman (1:55:08.380)

And like, there's a lot that they do,

Dan Reynolds (1:55:09.780)

but, and there was a statistic

Lex Fridman (1:55:11.500)

that they told it was staggering to me,

Dan Reynolds (1:55:12.740)

which is, I think it was 75% of artists, musicians,

Lex Fridman (1:55:17.820)

say they struggle with severe depression.

Dan Reynolds (1:55:20.540)

That's really high.

Lex Fridman (1:55:22.180)

I don't know what the national average is,

Lex Fridman (1:55:24.260)

but I would guess that that's higher than national average

Lex Fridman (1:55:27.460)

per occupation.

Lex Fridman (1:55:29.180)

So I just think there's a tricky balance.

Lex Fridman (1:55:33.020)

There's a tricky balance in art.

Lex Fridman (1:55:38.020)

So yeah, of course, like it's a necessary thing,

Lex Fridman (1:55:42.020)

the fragility of it all, but.

Dan Reynolds (1:55:46.220)

Yeah, I wonder, cause I'm extremely self critical

Lex Fridman (1:55:49.700)

and I sometimes ask myself the question,

Dan Reynolds (1:55:53.540)

I've romanticized it or rather I've learned to be,

Lex Fridman (1:55:58.460)

for it to be productive, to channel it into productivity.

Lex Fridman (1:56:01.820)

But I wonder if there's better ways to do that.

Lex Fridman (1:56:05.300)

And I also wonder if it's eventually the thing

Dan Reynolds (1:56:07.620)

that destroys me.

Lex Fridman (1:56:08.780)

Like if longterm, if it's a healthy thing,

Dan Reynolds (1:56:11.620)

it might be useful when you're sort of

Lex Fridman (1:56:17.260)

actively fighting the battles of the day,

Dan Reynolds (1:56:20.980)

for me it's engineering challenges

Lex Fridman (1:56:22.420)

and all that kind of stuff.

Lex Fridman (1:56:23.780)

But then when you're sitting back and enjoying life

Lex Fridman (1:56:28.100)

with family and so on, is that going to be,

Dan Reynolds (1:56:30.700)

like, do you need to find that self love,

Lex Fridman (1:56:32.860)

like ability to kind of silence the voice of criticism

Lex Fridman (1:56:38.700)

in your head?

Lex Fridman (1:56:39.540)

You know what, I really, there's a good,

Dan Reynolds (1:56:41.380)

you're making a good point.

Lex Fridman (1:56:42.500)

And I think that the middle ground is you need,

Dan Reynolds (1:56:51.580)

you need self doubt to push you to be better.

Lex Fridman (1:56:55.940)

I do believe that like, for instance,

Dan Reynolds (1:56:58.780)

if I believed I've hit my, like when you're like,

Lex Fridman (1:57:02.820)

is there a song on there that you think is genius?

Dan Reynolds (1:57:04.980)

If I think I've written a genius song ever,

Lex Fridman (1:57:07.380)

I think I'd probably stop.

Lex Fridman (1:57:09.420)

I think I'd be like, you know what?

Lex Fridman (1:57:11.740)

Did it, I wrote, what's that perfect song?

Dan Reynolds (1:57:20.700)

Imagine.

Lex Fridman (1:57:21.540)

Imagine, yeah.

Dan Reynolds (1:57:22.380)

If I'd written imagine, I'd probably be like, that's it,

Lex Fridman (1:57:26.980)

did it, all right, perfect song has been written.

Dan Reynolds (1:57:28.940)

That's the best thing I'll ever do.

Lex Fridman (1:57:31.180)

So the fact that there is like self criticism

Lex Fridman (1:57:36.860)

and criticism outside, I think is necessary.

Lex Fridman (1:57:39.780)

A hundred percent for sure.

Dan Reynolds (1:57:41.100)

It pushes you, it pushes you, it pushes you.

Lex Fridman (1:57:44.180)

It's just finding the right middle ground

Dan Reynolds (1:57:47.620)

for that young aspiring artist to also not feel squashed

Lex Fridman (1:57:51.660)

and to be heard and to love,

Dan Reynolds (1:57:53.700)

just to not even to feel squashed, just to love themself.

Lex Fridman (1:57:56.920)

So that when they're in the room playing the song,

Dan Reynolds (1:57:59.940)

they'll believe it because they believe themself.

Lex Fridman (1:58:03.260)

They love themself enough that they believe it

Lex Fridman (1:58:05.100)

and then they'll do a great,

Lex Fridman (1:58:06.060)

and then the song will come out great

Lex Fridman (1:58:07.500)

and they'll do a great performance.

Lex Fridman (1:58:10.020)

I have to ask, it's one of the very interesting aspects

Dan Reynolds (1:58:14.980)

of your life of the way you put love out there in the world.

Lex Fridman (1:58:18.500)

What is at the core of your support for the LGBT community?

Dan Reynolds (1:58:23.820)

A couple of things.

Lex Fridman (1:58:24.660)

So one, growing up in, from a young age

Dan Reynolds (1:58:29.340)

in the artist community,

Lex Fridman (1:58:31.660)

a lot of my closest friends were LGBTQ,

Dan Reynolds (1:58:34.940)

starting in middle school.

Lex Fridman (1:58:38.100)

And I think a lot of the best artists in the world

Dan Reynolds (1:58:41.340)

are LGBTQ and that's just, it's not a secret.

Lex Fridman (1:58:44.620)

Like it just is, like the artist community is filled

Dan Reynolds (1:58:47.500)

with lots of LGBTQ people.

Lex Fridman (1:58:50.860)

So I think being raised in that community

Dan Reynolds (1:58:54.580)

in that my friends struggled with their faith

Lex Fridman (1:58:58.100)

and their sexuality really opened up my eyes

Dan Reynolds (1:59:03.340)

to how incredibly hard that path is.

Lex Fridman (1:59:08.300)

For instance, okay, when I was in high school,

Dan Reynolds (1:59:10.980)

there was someone who went in front of,

Lex Fridman (1:59:13.200)

who was LGBTQ and was Mormon

Lex Fridman (1:59:17.920)

and felt like there was not a place for them in the church.

Lex Fridman (1:59:21.640)

They felt like the path, when you're being told

Dan Reynolds (1:59:24.240)

that it's evil and you believe it

Lex Fridman (1:59:26.600)

because you believe in your faith

Lex Fridman (1:59:28.680)

and you feel like it's unchangeable,

Lex Fridman (1:59:31.300)

you're putting a kid in a situation

Dan Reynolds (1:59:32.980)

where there's really no good resolution.

Lex Fridman (1:59:36.060)

It's either be alone for the rest of your life

Dan Reynolds (1:59:39.020)

or marry outside your sexual preference,

Lex Fridman (1:59:41.300)

which I don't wanna marry a man.

Dan Reynolds (1:59:43.000)

Like if I was forced to marry a man,

Lex Fridman (1:59:44.120)

I'm like, I don't want to marry a man

Dan Reynolds (1:59:47.480)

because I'm heterosexual.

Lex Fridman (1:59:49.500)

So you're forcing a kid into a situation

Dan Reynolds (1:59:51.920)

where it's very dangerous.

Lex Fridman (1:59:54.160)

Long story short, this kid went in front

Dan Reynolds (1:59:55.360)

of the Las Vegas Mormon temple and shot himself,

Lex Fridman (1:59:58.360)

killed himself.

Dan Reynolds (20:04.500)

of this person, like I have to let you go.

Lex Fridman (20:06.260)

I hear that, of course, and people always say,

Dan Reynolds (20:07.660)

oh, well, he's breaking up with her,

Lex Fridman (20:09.380)

but there's so much more complexity and nuance

Dan Reynolds (20:11.460)

to relationships than that and my wife and I

Lex Fridman (20:15.340)

went through really difficult separation

Lex Fridman (20:19.620)

and that's a story for another day

Lex Fridman (20:22.460)

or different question or something,

Lex Fridman (20:24.100)

but the nuance of it makes me think of this

Lex Fridman (20:27.860)

when I hear this, which is there's just more

Dan Reynolds (20:32.260)

to being with someone or not being with someone

Lex Fridman (20:34.540)

than hey, I think that person's really attractive

Dan Reynolds (20:37.900)

or hey, that person makes me laugh or not

Lex Fridman (20:40.020)

or I love them and now I don't love them.

Dan Reynolds (20:42.420)

Love is such a complex, nuanced thing

Lex Fridman (20:44.700)

that a lot of times, there's just more going on

Dan Reynolds (20:47.620)

behind the scenes, I think.

Lex Fridman (20:49.540)

Yeah, and a small tangent on that,

Dan Reynolds (20:52.500)

just as a curious question, have you paid any attention

Lex Fridman (20:56.180)

to the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trials?

Dan Reynolds (20:58.820)

I have watched quite a bit of it

Lex Fridman (21:00.940)

because my wife really loves it

Lex Fridman (21:02.500)

and she watches it in bed at night.

Lex Fridman (21:04.660)

So it's raw, to me it's really,

Dan Reynolds (21:06.620)

because you've mentioned how complicated love can be

Lex Fridman (21:10.380)

and it's, I've never seen, I don't care

Dan Reynolds (21:12.700)

about the celebrity nature of it.

Lex Fridman (21:14.300)

I don't care if it was, I don't care who it is,

Lex Fridman (21:17.900)

but it's just laid out in such raw form.

Lex Fridman (21:21.180)

For the world to see it.

Dan Reynolds (21:22.980)

For the world to see the toxicity,

Lex Fridman (21:24.860)

but also the passion and clearly the drugs

Lex Fridman (21:29.860)

and the drinking, but also like the longing

Lex Fridman (21:33.900)

and the dreams and I will always be with you,

Dan Reynolds (21:36.700)

I will die for you, the places, the rollercoaster of love

Lex Fridman (21:41.220)

and it's all there at the end, past the end.

Lex Fridman (21:47.020)

So it's like, I've also recently reread

Lex Fridman (21:49.900)

The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich

Dan Reynolds (21:51.660)

about Hitler and Nazi Germany.

Lex Fridman (21:53.780)

It's the rise and the fall and it's interesting

Dan Reynolds (21:56.520)

to look at the entirety of that process

Lex Fridman (21:58.820)

after it's all over, many, many decades after it's all over.

Dan Reynolds (22:02.420)

That book in particular written by the person

Lex Fridman (22:04.220)

that was actually there and so here we're seeing

Dan Reynolds (22:07.460)

two people in the context of the courtroom

Lex Fridman (22:11.100)

analyzing this rise and fall of a love affair.

Dan Reynolds (22:15.180)

It's fascinating.

Lex Fridman (22:16.020)

You know the truth is, I was telling my wife this actually

Dan Reynolds (22:18.440)

just the other day because she was asking me

Lex Fridman (22:20.420)

what I thought about it.

Dan Reynolds (22:22.300)

It makes me really sad.

Lex Fridman (22:24.840)

It's humorous, don't get me wrong.

Dan Reynolds (22:26.780)

There's a lot of parts in it that are just really funny.

Lex Fridman (22:30.900)

But I look at it and I also see the internet

Lex Fridman (22:34.620)

and someone's always the villain and someone's the hero

Lex Fridman (22:38.260)

which is such a funny thing and we talked a little

Dan Reynolds (22:40.780)

about this offline before we got on this

Lex Fridman (22:42.160)

but I have a real firm belief in life

Dan Reynolds (22:44.420)

that it's just more complex than you think, always, always.

Lex Fridman (22:50.860)

Johnny for instance is very charismatic

Lex Fridman (22:54.100)

and you love him and he's funny and the way he does things

Lex Fridman (22:58.460)

and he looks certain ways and he says things.

Dan Reynolds (23:02.580)

You really love him and I feel like,

Lex Fridman (23:04.380)

and maybe I'm wrong on this but it looks like

Dan Reynolds (23:05.660)

the internet is really, Johnny is the winner,

Lex Fridman (23:09.260)

Amber is the villain and I kind of look at it

Lex Fridman (23:13.260)

and I feel like, were any of you in their bedroom?

Lex Fridman (23:16.980)

Were any of you there for these things?

Lex Fridman (23:19.500)

And I'm not saying one way or the other.

Lex Fridman (23:22.540)

All I see when I look at that is two people

Dan Reynolds (23:26.160)

with a lot of deep seeded hurt, anger

Lex Fridman (23:30.140)

and that anger is so poisonous to both of them

Lex Fridman (23:32.940)

and they're getting through it in the way

Lex Fridman (23:34.720)

that they only know how and I'm not saying

Dan Reynolds (23:38.100)

we shouldn't be able to look at parts of it

Lex Fridman (23:40.660)

and laugh about it and stuff and be virtuous or something

Lex Fridman (23:43.620)

but just that there's not a hero.

Lex Fridman (23:46.740)

It's more complicated.

Dan Reynolds (23:47.860)

Yeah, I think unless you've been living with Amber

Lex Fridman (23:52.020)

and Johnny, you don't know and just because

Dan Reynolds (23:53.700)

one seems more charismatic in the moment

Lex Fridman (23:55.580)

or funnier or more believable even,

Dan Reynolds (23:58.340)

doesn't mean that their truth is the truth.

Lex Fridman (24:04.180)

And I feel like there's still love there too,

Dan Reynolds (24:06.820)

which makes the whole thing.

Lex Fridman (24:07.660)

Oh, that's the hardest part.

Dan Reynolds (24:08.480)

He won't even look at her.

Lex Fridman (24:09.740)

He looks down the whole time and maybe people say,

Dan Reynolds (24:12.660)

well, it's because anger or hurt or whatever

Lex Fridman (24:17.020)

but the way that she looks and stuff,

Dan Reynolds (24:18.840)

it just feels like there's so much hurt there

Lex Fridman (24:23.060)

that it hurts me to watch it.

Dan Reynolds (24:25.180)

I just feel like, oh, my heart just aches for them

Lex Fridman (24:28.140)

and for both of them and I don't know either of them

Dan Reynolds (24:30.660)

personally and I don't know, just hurts.

Lex Fridman (24:35.100)

I've never seen love laid out in this raw kind of way.

Dan Reynolds (24:38.860)

It makes me feel better about,

Lex Fridman (24:44.060)

it almost gives you, seeing people have gone through

Dan Reynolds (24:47.580)

a struggle in this sort of mundane kind of way,

Lex Fridman (24:51.340)

gives you room to struggle yourself

Dan Reynolds (24:54.180)

about the messiness of love.

Lex Fridman (24:56.020)

Like you're supposed to,

Dan Reynolds (24:57.540)

like relationship is supposed to be simple and whatever

Lex Fridman (25:00.460)

but this like, oh, man, this.

Dan Reynolds (25:02.260)

It's like art.

Lex Fridman (25:03.680)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (25:05.060)

And for the record, I don't feel like it shouldn't be shown.

Lex Fridman (25:09.260)

I think it's actually really beautiful art

Lex Fridman (25:11.680)

and I agree there's gonna be a lot of people

Lex Fridman (25:13.060)

who walk away from it and are changed in certain ways

Dan Reynolds (25:15.480)

or look at things different.

Lex Fridman (25:16.820)

I'm not saying it's changed in the whole world,

Dan Reynolds (25:18.020)

the Johnny Depp trial, but it's art.

Lex Fridman (25:19.620)

It's just like you would look at a painting

Lex Fridman (25:20.980)

and it might affect you.

Lex Fridman (25:23.480)

My only commentary is more that there's not,

Dan Reynolds (25:27.160)

I think it's silly when people say who's right

Lex Fridman (25:29.220)

and who's wrong and who's the clear villain and who's the,

Dan Reynolds (25:31.940)

like we love as human, we have to have an answer for every,

Lex Fridman (25:34.700)

we have to put everything in a box.

Lex Fridman (25:36.020)

And it's like, well, we're looking at this

Lex Fridman (25:37.620)

and we're deciding you're right and you're wrong.

Lex Fridman (25:41.020)

And I just think it's silly unless it's your life.

Lex Fridman (25:44.420)

So speaking of heroes and villains and highs and lows,

Dan Reynolds (25:47.060)

you grew up in Las Vegas.

Lex Fridman (25:49.820)

And you said that Vegas is a performing town,

Dan Reynolds (25:52.060)

a town of high stakes, drama and eccentricity.

Lex Fridman (25:55.900)

It's a town of high highs and low lows.

Lex Fridman (25:58.320)

And I'll be damned if my therapist didn't point out

Lex Fridman (26:00.460)

that correlation out to me personally a long time ago.

Lex Fridman (26:04.780)

So to me, Vegas from the outside is romanticized

Lex Fridman (26:09.140)

by certain movies.

Dan Reynolds (26:09.980)

The lows define the beauty of this town.

Lex Fridman (26:14.200)

And certain movies, so to me, Casino with Robert De Niro,

Dan Reynolds (26:21.180)

Joe Pesci and Sharon Stone, leaving Las Vegas

Lex Fridman (26:25.260)

with Nicolas Cage, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

Dan Reynolds (26:29.260)

with the Johnny Depp play, Hunter S. Thompson.

Lex Fridman (26:35.620)

First of all, what's your favorite representation

Lex Fridman (26:38.700)

of Vegas from a darker side?

Lex Fridman (26:41.740)

And do you draw any wisdom insight from the darkness,

Lex Fridman (26:47.660)

the lows and the highs in those movies?

Lex Fridman (26:49.940)

Or is it over romanticized?

Lex Fridman (26:52.540)

So I grew up in a really conservative Mormon family.

Lex Fridman (26:56.460)

And Vegas was established by the Mormons and the mob.

Dan Reynolds (27:00.920)

Those were like the two very different worlds

Lex Fridman (27:05.020)

that created what Vegas is.

Lex Fridman (27:06.680)

And if you live in Vegas, it really shows in a lot of ways

Lex Fridman (27:09.760)

because Vegas has the strip and the parties

Lex Fridman (27:13.680)

and the craziness.

Lex Fridman (27:14.520)

But it also has very neighborhoods and big families

Lex Fridman (27:18.980)

and conservative people and liberal people living together

Lex Fridman (27:24.620)

in a really interesting way.

Lex Fridman (27:27.060)

And for me, growing up here, for instance,

Lex Fridman (27:32.400)

was a lot of driving on the freeway,

Dan Reynolds (27:34.060)

my mom being like, children, close your eyes.

Lex Fridman (27:36.200)

There's a naked woman on that billboard and everything.

Dan Reynolds (27:38.540)

Okay, mom, on our way to church.

Lex Fridman (27:40.420)

You know what I mean?

Dan Reynolds (27:41.260)

It was like, but also being like, whoa, this is crazy.

Lex Fridman (27:44.140)

You know what I mean?

Dan Reynolds (27:44.980)

Like taking in whatever I could when I could.

Lex Fridman (27:49.500)

So I saw, and I'm grateful for that.

Dan Reynolds (27:53.060)

Like, I really love that I didn't grow up as a Mormon

Lex Fridman (27:55.180)

in for instance, like Utah or something,

Dan Reynolds (27:57.060)

like the typical place, because I saw both sides

Lex Fridman (28:00.420)

and I appreciated something from both sides.

Lex Fridman (28:03.100)

And now as a person now who's not religious,

Lex Fridman (28:05.580)

but just spiritually minded,

Dan Reynolds (28:06.940)

you know, I'm grateful for that divergent character,

Lex Fridman (28:13.340)

that juxtaposition, dual edged sword that Vegas is.

Lex Fridman (28:17.380)

And I try to apply that to everything in life,

Lex Fridman (28:19.880)

which is like Johnny Depp and Amber.

Dan Reynolds (28:23.140)

It's like, there's two sides to every story.

Lex Fridman (28:25.020)

There's always two sides to every coin.

Dan Reynolds (28:26.680)

There's always, and there's something to be said for both.

Lex Fridman (28:29.440)

Like I try to see people and even if, you know,

Dan Reynolds (28:33.860)

it's just, yeah, I try to apply that to life.

Lex Fridman (28:36.340)

As far as a movie that personifies Vegas

Dan Reynolds (28:39.580)

or something in that medium that personifies Vegas

Lex Fridman (28:42.740)

in a way that resonates with me.

Dan Reynolds (28:46.140)

Don't say Hangover.

Lex Fridman (28:47.560)

No, no, yeah.

Dan Reynolds (28:49.460)

I also like, I wasn't even allowed to watch

Lex Fridman (28:51.960)

PG 13 movies growing up.

Lex Fridman (28:53.900)

So a lot of the movies that you're saying,

Lex Fridman (28:56.220)

like I either didn't see, I didn't have cable television.

Dan Reynolds (28:59.740)

You know, I wasn't like a pilgrim,

Lex Fridman (29:00.940)

but I had a really, really conservative upbringing.

Lex Fridman (29:03.540)

So it didn't define your intellectual like development.

Lex Fridman (29:08.100)

No, no, I just, I can't think of any movie

Dan Reynolds (29:11.140)

that comes to mind where I'm like, that's my Vegas movie.

Lex Fridman (29:13.740)

You know what I mean?

Dan Reynolds (29:14.580)

Like, I'm sure I've seen some of the movies you've said now,

Lex Fridman (29:16.500)

but I don't, I can't think of one that I'm like,

Dan Reynolds (29:20.180)

actually personifies Vegas in a way that feels honest to me.

Lex Fridman (29:25.100)

Like, or like, wasn't there a Chevy,

Lex Fridman (29:27.860)

was there a Chevy Chase?

Lex Fridman (29:29.020)

Yeah, yeah.

Dan Reynolds (29:30.340)

I think that's maybe the only one I thought of

Lex Fridman (29:31.860)

that came to mind where I was like,

Dan Reynolds (29:33.740)

cause I love Chevy Chase so much

Lex Fridman (29:34.700)

that maybe it's one of his Vegas vacation or something.

Dan Reynolds (29:38.180)

Yeah, so, but that's more like lighthearted surge,

Lex Fridman (29:41.660)

that kind of stuff.

Dan Reynolds (29:42.500)

Right, it's not like, I guess what I would say

Lex Fridman (29:44.380)

is there's no truth that has been, that I've seen of Vegas.

Dan Reynolds (29:48.100)

Cause what I see of Vegas is,

Lex Fridman (29:52.420)

there's obviously like the parties and stuff

Lex Fridman (29:54.020)

and the nightlife, which I'm not big party person.

Lex Fridman (29:56.440)

So it's, I haven't really experienced much of that,

Lex Fridman (29:58.840)

but there's also drugs and I have a strange relationship

Lex Fridman (2:00:00.240)

That impacted our community.

Dan Reynolds (2:00:01.920)

Like, and not just that, but it was like severe bullying

Lex Fridman (2:00:06.840)

to LGBTQ kids in the 90s, it was especially different.

Dan Reynolds (2:00:10.480)

Like there's still bullying, don't get me wrong,

Lex Fridman (2:00:12.580)

but man, like bullying in school,

Dan Reynolds (2:00:14.160)

I don't really know actually what it's like in schools now.

Lex Fridman (2:00:16.380)

Maybe the bullying is just as bad as it was in the 90s,

Lex Fridman (2:00:18.720)

but there was like, it was like,

Lex Fridman (2:00:23.080)

I would hear all the time, like the F slur being slung out

Dan Reynolds (2:00:27.520)

at people who were LGBTQ all the time

Lex Fridman (2:00:31.920)

and I wasn't even LGBTQ.

Lex Fridman (2:00:33.980)

So I, you know, it's just seeing that,

Lex Fridman (2:00:38.980)

I think that every, any social justice issue

Dan Reynolds (2:00:47.280)

takes all sides.

Lex Fridman (2:00:48.840)

It takes all pieces of the puzzle.

Dan Reynolds (2:00:50.480)

If only the pieces of the puzzle contributed

Lex Fridman (2:00:53.000)

are from the side that is affected,

Dan Reynolds (2:00:54.680)

I don't believe that we'll ever have resolution.

Lex Fridman (2:00:57.240)

We're doing a shit job and we need to do better.

Lex Fridman (2:01:01.000)

And that's just, that's the reality of it.

Lex Fridman (2:01:05.560)

So that was part of the reason I also have family

Dan Reynolds (2:01:07.240)

who's LGBTQ and it's just something

Lex Fridman (2:01:09.960)

that's been part of my path.

Lex Fridman (2:01:12.460)

And I feel like I'm a big believer

Lex Fridman (2:01:14.480)

and take the path that is presented to you.

Lex Fridman (2:01:16.920)

And this was just something that came up in my life a lot.

Lex Fridman (2:01:18.960)

When I met my wife, she was living with her two best friends

Dan Reynolds (2:01:21.120)

who were LGBTQ who really didn't want her to marry me

Lex Fridman (2:01:24.400)

because I was Mormon.

Lex Fridman (2:01:25.320)

And at the time it was prop eight,

Lex Fridman (2:01:27.160)

which was Mormons were fighting against LGBT gay marriage.

Lex Fridman (2:01:31.660)

And so that, then they didn't come to our wedding

Lex Fridman (2:01:35.880)

and that really broke my wife's heart.

Lex Fridman (2:01:38.000)

So it was just like, because Mormonism represented everything

Lex Fridman (2:01:41.880)

that was against their community.

Dan Reynolds (2:01:45.840)

So.

Lex Fridman (2:01:46.680)

So you felt you had to say something.

Dan Reynolds (2:01:48.240)

Yeah, I felt like by not saying anything,

Lex Fridman (2:01:50.680)

I was saying everything.

Dan Reynolds (2:01:52.220)

I felt like by not speaking up and being like,

Lex Fridman (2:01:55.360)

hey, Dan Reynolds is Mormon singer.

Dan Reynolds (2:01:58.240)

Here's this new band, Magic Dragons and they're Mormons.

Lex Fridman (2:02:01.120)

It was like, okay, well, what do Mormons represent?

Dan Reynolds (2:02:03.520)

They represent prop eight.

Lex Fridman (2:02:04.880)

What does prop eight represent?

Dan Reynolds (2:02:06.320)

Bigotry towards the LGBTQ community.

Lex Fridman (2:02:09.480)

So what do I do?

Dan Reynolds (2:02:10.320)

Okay, I can speak in every interview and be like,

Lex Fridman (2:02:12.180)

well, that's not me.

Dan Reynolds (2:02:13.080)

I don't believe that too.

Lex Fridman (2:02:15.160)

Or I could just be more active about it.

Lex Fridman (2:02:17.780)

And especially when it's affecting my family

Lex Fridman (2:02:19.800)

and friends throughout my entire life, it was like,

Dan Reynolds (2:02:21.640)

all right, this seems like a path that you need to go down.

Lex Fridman (2:02:25.040)

So long story short is a path that just presented itself

Dan Reynolds (2:02:29.240)

through things in my life.

Lex Fridman (2:02:30.720)

So just on that topic that religion and God

Dan Reynolds (2:02:33.500)

give a lot of meaning to a lot of people.

Lex Fridman (2:02:35.840)

It gives a tradition that brings people together

Dan Reynolds (2:02:42.500)

across the generations, but it also can hurt people.

Lex Fridman (2:02:47.460)

What do you make about that tension?

Lex Fridman (2:02:50.560)

So source of meaning, but also a source of pain for people.

Lex Fridman (2:02:56.200)

The reality is, at least to me,

Dan Reynolds (2:02:58.440)

again, this is just my reality.

Lex Fridman (2:03:00.640)

I feel like I'm doing my dad's thing

Dan Reynolds (2:03:01.880)

every time I'm talking to him.

Lex Fridman (2:03:03.080)

Or I'm like, I don't really know, here's my two cents.

Dan Reynolds (2:03:05.720)

You have become your father.

Lex Fridman (2:03:06.880)

Yeah.

Dan Reynolds (2:03:10.040)

The reality and it's my reality and it is the reality

Lex Fridman (2:03:12.800)

for sure is there's, I think that religion

Dan Reynolds (2:03:20.320)

has brought a lot of hurt and pain to a lot of people.

Lex Fridman (2:03:24.460)

Absolutely it has.

Dan Reynolds (2:03:26.360)

I don't think anybody can dispute that on either side,

Lex Fridman (2:03:29.060)

whether it's war, whether it's slaughtering

Dan Reynolds (2:03:36.860)

of entire peoples, there's been a lot of pain

Lex Fridman (2:03:40.780)

and suffering that has come from religion.

Lex Fridman (2:03:44.740)

So my little thing that has been hard for me

Lex Fridman (2:03:46.640)

is a faith crisis, right?

Dan Reynolds (2:03:47.820)

I had religion and then I lost it and then I had nothing.

Lex Fridman (2:03:50.860)

So that's for me, I was like,

Lex Fridman (2:03:52.060)

well, religion did that to me, right?

Lex Fridman (2:03:55.360)

But then at one point it's kind of like,

Lex Fridman (2:03:58.060)

how much of my life am I just gonna complain

Lex Fridman (2:03:59.980)

about being raised Mormon or being depressed?

Lex Fridman (2:04:04.460)

As I get older, I'm like, okay, so what?

Lex Fridman (2:04:07.940)

Okay, it's really hurt me,

Lex Fridman (2:04:09.260)

but were there any good things that came out of Mormonism?

Lex Fridman (2:04:12.780)

Well, yeah, there's a lot of good things

Dan Reynolds (2:04:14.180)

that have come to my family through Mormonism.

Lex Fridman (2:04:16.740)

Closeness, we're really, really close.

Lex Fridman (2:04:18.540)

Mormon culture is that you live together forever, right?

Lex Fridman (2:04:21.580)

The teaching is that your families are forever.

Dan Reynolds (2:04:24.320)

We die and then we go to heaven together

Lex Fridman (2:04:25.820)

and we're together forever.

Dan Reynolds (2:04:27.000)

My family really believes that principle, all of them do.

Lex Fridman (2:04:31.460)

And that instills a certain way of living

Dan Reynolds (2:04:35.280)

that's kind of beautiful, even if it's naivety.

Lex Fridman (2:04:39.020)

There's something kind of beautiful

Dan Reynolds (2:04:40.260)

about believing that we're forming these bonds together

Lex Fridman (2:04:42.980)

as a family and that like,

Dan Reynolds (2:04:44.220)

we're gonna be together forever.

Lex Fridman (2:04:46.220)

It brings a lot of comfort to a kid too.

Dan Reynolds (2:04:48.140)

When I was little, I was like, wow,

Lex Fridman (2:04:50.580)

it's gonna be okay if I die

Lex Fridman (2:04:51.700)

because I get to see my mom again, you know what I mean?

Lex Fridman (2:04:53.860)

I really believe that.

Dan Reynolds (2:04:55.940)

Is the right answer that you tell that kid,

Lex Fridman (2:04:59.140)

actually when you die, you're not gonna see your mom again.

Dan Reynolds (2:05:01.980)

Maybe, it might be, I don't know.

Lex Fridman (2:05:04.420)

And anybody who has a kid is gonna face that moment.

Dan Reynolds (2:05:08.340)

I've already faced it where you sit down

Lex Fridman (2:05:10.060)

and my kid was like, hey dad,

Lex Fridman (2:05:12.060)

when you die, am I gonna see you again?

Lex Fridman (2:05:14.300)

That was actually a really hard moment for me

Dan Reynolds (2:05:16.720)

because I was suddenly faced with,

Lex Fridman (2:05:18.980)

okay, do I give the answer that I thought was bullshit?

Lex Fridman (2:05:22.900)

Or do I give the answer of what I think it is?

Lex Fridman (2:05:25.140)

Or do I give the real answer, which is, I don't know.

Lex Fridman (2:05:29.200)

And that's what I chose,

Lex Fridman (2:05:30.680)

which as a father, that's not always the easiest answer

Dan Reynolds (2:05:33.220)

because your kid, it's a wonderful thing

Lex Fridman (2:05:35.260)

that you feel like you can give your kid the comfort of like,

Dan Reynolds (2:05:37.580)

hey, your parents are gonna take care of everything.

Lex Fridman (2:05:40.060)

We know everything.

Dan Reynolds (2:05:41.220)

We've been around.

Lex Fridman (2:05:42.060)

My kid's always like, are you the strongest?

Dan Reynolds (2:05:43.500)

I'm like, yeah, I am the strongest.

Lex Fridman (2:05:45.100)

I'm stronger than everybody.

Dan Reynolds (2:05:46.620)

Yeah, I'm stronger than everybody.

Lex Fridman (2:05:48.900)

So when you're faced with that moment,

Dan Reynolds (2:05:51.140)

it's like, it kind of sucks to tell your kid like,

Lex Fridman (2:05:54.020)

you know what?

Dan Reynolds (2:05:55.460)

I don't know if you're gonna see me after I die,

Lex Fridman (2:05:58.140)

but I hope.

Dan Reynolds (2:05:59.780)

That's why I said, I was like, I don't know, but I hope.

Lex Fridman (2:06:01.940)

I really hope,

Dan Reynolds (2:06:02.980)

because that would be awesome if we can hang out forever.

Lex Fridman (2:06:06.260)

And if there's any way for it to happen,

Dan Reynolds (2:06:07.860)

I'll make it happen.

Lex Fridman (2:06:08.980)

You know what I mean?

Dan Reynolds (2:06:09.820)

That's kind of what my answer was.

Lex Fridman (2:06:11.660)

So long story short,

Dan Reynolds (2:06:13.260)

sorry, I know that I'm being lengthy on this.

Lex Fridman (2:06:15.740)

Is there like, what is my thought on religion?

Dan Reynolds (2:06:18.260)

It just is.

Lex Fridman (2:06:19.260)

It's been here forever.

Dan Reynolds (2:06:20.700)

It's coping.

Lex Fridman (2:06:22.100)

Maybe it's, I can't say whether it's true or false.

Lex Fridman (2:06:24.980)

How the hell am I supposed to know?

Lex Fridman (2:06:27.420)

You know what I mean?

Dan Reynolds (2:06:28.260)

Like I've lived 34 years on this planet.

Lex Fridman (2:06:31.980)

A lot of people have been around a lot longer than me

Lex Fridman (2:06:34.140)

and they really believe very deeply.

Lex Fridman (2:06:35.900)

And a lot of them are smarter than me.

Lex Fridman (2:06:37.900)

You know what I mean?

Lex Fridman (2:06:38.740)

Like I look at my older brothers, for instance,

Dan Reynolds (2:06:40.180)

who are very practicing Mormons.

Lex Fridman (2:06:43.020)

These guys are hyper intelligent.

Dan Reynolds (2:06:45.420)

My younger sister, hyper intelligent.

Lex Fridman (2:06:47.660)

All of them start smarter than me.

Dan Reynolds (2:06:49.300)

They all believe it still.

Lex Fridman (2:06:50.340)

So what am I supposed to say?

Dan Reynolds (2:06:52.460)

Well, you're all stupid.

Lex Fridman (2:06:53.820)

You know what I mean?

Dan Reynolds (2:06:54.660)

Like you're all wrong.

Lex Fridman (2:06:55.740)

I don't know.

Dan Reynolds (2:06:56.580)

Like maybe it's the South Park episode

Lex Fridman (2:06:58.380)

where everybody dies and then they're like,

Dan Reynolds (2:07:00.500)

well, the right answer was Mormonism.

Lex Fridman (2:07:02.540)

And everybody's like, aww.

Lex Fridman (2:07:03.860)

You know what I mean?

Lex Fridman (2:07:04.700)

Like Mormons love that moment in South Park.

Dan Reynolds (2:07:08.220)

They're like, hey, that day may come.

Lex Fridman (2:07:09.900)

That day may come.

Dan Reynolds (2:07:13.060)

Yeah, so maybe I don't know is the honest answer

Lex Fridman (2:07:16.700)

for everybody around the table.

Lex Fridman (2:07:18.980)

But the biggest question

Lex Fridman (2:07:20.780)

for which I don't know is the right answer

Lex Fridman (2:07:23.300)

is what's the meaning of this whole thing?

Lex Fridman (2:07:26.340)

What's the meaning of life?

Dan Reynolds (2:07:29.820)

No, you're not allowed to say I don't know.

Lex Fridman (2:07:32.180)

Okay.

Dan Reynolds (2:07:33.380)

You can be just like your dad and say,

Lex Fridman (2:07:36.500)

let me just give my two cents.

Dan Reynolds (2:07:38.700)

Take it or leave it.

Lex Fridman (2:07:40.100)

Whatever it's worth, take it or leave it.

Dan Reynolds (2:07:41.660)

It's probably worth nothing.

Lex Fridman (2:07:42.500)

It's piddled on the ground.

Lex Fridman (2:07:44.660)

I mean, why are we here?

Lex Fridman (2:07:50.620)

It's just busily creating all these kinds of things,

Dan Reynolds (2:07:55.500)

worrying about things, having kids.

Lex Fridman (2:07:59.300)

My purpose, at least right now,

Dan Reynolds (2:08:03.140)

is to wake up and try to

Lex Fridman (2:08:08.140)

to bring light love to the world,

Dan Reynolds (2:08:14.700)

light love to myself and have integrity.

Lex Fridman (2:08:18.820)

That's my purpose.

Dan Reynolds (2:08:24.460)

The ultimate purpose of life,

Lex Fridman (2:08:27.100)

that I guess that's my ultimate purpose of life.

Dan Reynolds (2:08:29.340)

I don't know what happens when I die.

Lex Fridman (2:08:33.660)

Ayahuasca gave me some sense that there's more to be known.

Dan Reynolds (2:08:37.180)

I'm sure there are other things in life

Lex Fridman (2:08:38.700)

that would give me that, and I'm looking for it.

Dan Reynolds (2:08:41.180)

I'm a seeker.

Lex Fridman (2:08:42.020)

I'm always looking for the next something

Dan Reynolds (2:08:46.060)

to give me hope in something more,

Lex Fridman (2:08:48.660)

even if so, I could just not bullshit my kids

Dan Reynolds (2:08:51.500)

when they ask me that question and be like,

Lex Fridman (2:08:52.780)

you know what, I really don't know.

Dan Reynolds (2:08:56.220)

I wanna not know more, if that makes sense.

Lex Fridman (2:08:59.900)

I don't wanna, I want to see things that make me confused,

Dan Reynolds (2:09:04.900)

that make me question what I already knew.

Lex Fridman (2:09:08.300)

Like I am like, when I meet an atheist who comes up to me

Lex Fridman (2:09:13.540)

and they're like, atheism, atheism, atheism.

Lex Fridman (2:09:16.500)

It's just as laughable to me as when I meet the Mormon

Dan Reynolds (2:09:19.700)

who comes up and they're like,

Lex Fridman (2:09:20.700)

Mormonism, Mormonism, Mormonism.

Lex Fridman (2:09:22.220)

I'm like, how do you, how do anyone, how do you guys know?

Lex Fridman (2:09:26.980)

They'd like, like, you know.

Lex Fridman (2:09:31.700)

So you feel like you're doing some, through all your travels,

Lex Fridman (2:09:35.700)

through all the people you meet,

Dan Reynolds (2:09:36.980)

you feel like you're still keeping your eyes open

Lex Fridman (2:09:38.940)

and your heart open to sort of discover something new,

Dan Reynolds (2:09:44.780)

like the ayahuasca experience,

Lex Fridman (2:09:47.020)

that there might be deeper truths out there.

Dan Reynolds (2:09:50.580)

Yeah, and I wanna find them,

Lex Fridman (2:09:52.460)

and I wanna surround myself with people

Dan Reynolds (2:09:54.060)

who are just looking for it.

Lex Fridman (2:09:55.220)

I'm not interested in people who are just looking

Dan Reynolds (2:09:57.940)

to point fingers at each, like life is so short.

Lex Fridman (2:10:00.500)

I'm looking for, it's one of the reasons

Dan Reynolds (2:10:02.980)

that I wanna meet with you is I was like, wow,

Lex Fridman (2:10:05.740)

Lex really seems like he's on a journey to find truth.

Lex Fridman (2:10:08.060)

And that humility for me is same thing with Rick.

Lex Fridman (2:10:10.340)

It drew me to Rick.

Dan Reynolds (2:10:11.180)

It was like, I really, I see that and identify with it.

Lex Fridman (2:10:15.140)

And that's what I'm looking for.

Dan Reynolds (2:10:16.260)

There's the final song on our record,

Lex Fridman (2:10:18.140)

our new record that's coming out.

Dan Reynolds (2:10:20.900)

The chorus goes, and this is like,

Lex Fridman (2:10:24.460)

this is my best answer to what you're asking.

Lex Fridman (2:10:27.260)

So the chorus goes,

Lex Fridman (2:10:30.900)

take it easy on me.

Dan Reynolds (2:10:33.300)

I need some lullaby.

Lex Fridman (2:10:35.780)

They tell me heaven's just a lie.

Dan Reynolds (2:10:38.540)

Well, I'm not surprised.

Lex Fridman (2:10:40.460)

Tell me that you know.

Dan Reynolds (2:10:42.300)

No, you don't.

Lex Fridman (2:10:43.620)

Yeah, you're just like me.

Lex Fridman (2:10:45.540)

Can we just all hope for the best?

Lex Fridman (2:10:48.700)

Take it easy.

Lex Fridman (2:10:51.420)

So that's it for me.

Lex Fridman (2:10:52.260)

It's like, I'm in a place where I'm like, I don't know.

Lex Fridman (2:10:56.580)

Tell me, I'm not gonna believe you.

Lex Fridman (2:10:58.940)

Maybe you do.

Dan Reynolds (2:10:59.780)

I'm not gonna believe it,

Lex Fridman (2:11:00.940)

but let's just be easier on each other

Lex Fridman (2:11:04.300)

and try to find truth wherever it may lie.

Lex Fridman (2:11:07.420)

But above all, know that we don't know jack shit.

Dan Reynolds (2:11:11.220)

I think that's a mic drop moment.

Lex Fridman (2:11:13.020)

Dan, thank you so much.

Dan Reynolds (2:11:14.100)

You're an incredible human.

Lex Fridman (2:11:15.260)

I love that you share with the world

Dan Reynolds (2:11:17.500)

the darkness of your mind, of your life experience

Lex Fridman (2:11:20.980)

and the beautiful light that you've shown to the world.

Lex Fridman (2:11:23.340)

So it's a huge honor

Lex Fridman (2:11:25.260)

and thank you for spending your valuable time.

Dan Reynolds (2:11:27.060)

Good luck on the tour.

Lex Fridman (2:11:28.140)

Thanks, man.

Dan Reynolds (2:11:28.980)

Thanks for having me.

Lex Fridman (2:11:30.460)

Thanks for listening to this conversation

Dan Reynolds (2:11:31.940)

with Dan Reynolds.

Lex Fridman (2:11:33.020)

To support this podcast,

Dan Reynolds (2:11:34.300)

please check out our sponsors in the description.

Lex Fridman (2:11:36.940)

And now let me leave you with some words

Dan Reynolds (2:11:38.980)

from Aldous Huxley.

Lex Fridman (2:11:41.220)

After silence, that which comes nearest

Dan Reynolds (2:11:44.260)

to expressing the inexpressible is music.

Lex Fridman (2:11:48.500)

Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

Dan Reynolds (30:03.700)

with drugs because I've lost a few friends

Lex Fridman (30:05.180)

to drug overdoses.

Lex Fridman (30:06.300)

And so I don't, that's not romantic to me,

Lex Fridman (30:09.500)

but there's also like, yeah, I mean,

Dan Reynolds (30:12.620)

you asked for a dark reflection of it.

Lex Fridman (30:14.500)

I guess I certainly see a dark reflection to Vegas.

Lex Fridman (30:17.940)

And I don't, I feel like Vegas is typically personified

Lex Fridman (30:20.540)

as like at the tables and everything.

Lex Fridman (30:22.780)

But it's also like, I have like friends

Lex Fridman (30:25.180)

who've lost all their money to gambling addiction.

Lex Fridman (30:27.660)

And so it's like, what I guess the whole thing.

Lex Fridman (30:31.100)

Yeah, somebody maybe needs to make,

Dan Reynolds (30:32.860)

maybe that's an open spot.

Lex Fridman (30:33.920)

There needs to be a dark side to Vegas.

Dan Reynolds (30:36.820)

Well, it's about Mormons in Vegas,

Lex Fridman (30:39.100)

dying to drug overdose or getting shot by the mob.

Dan Reynolds (30:42.560)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (30:45.620)

So you mentioned your spirituality.

Dan Reynolds (30:48.300)

You've, you said that having a crisis of faith

Lex Fridman (30:51.820)

or just the philosophical question of asking who is God,

Lex Fridman (30:56.820)

does God exist?

Lex Fridman (30:59.340)

Or in thinking of the flip side of that,

Lex Fridman (31:01.860)

of mortality, what happens when we die?

Lex Fridman (31:04.460)

Those kinds of things were extremely difficult,

Dan Reynolds (31:07.580)

deep things for you in terms of your development,

Lex Fridman (31:12.900)

the whole process of figuring that out.

Lex Fridman (31:15.940)

Why does it hurt so much to lose faith in God?

Lex Fridman (31:20.260)

Yeah, I would say that the seeking of God,

Dan Reynolds (31:22.940)

let's say that, is an obsession for me

Lex Fridman (31:25.460)

and has been since I was young.

Dan Reynolds (31:27.660)

I really feel that I'm a deep, deep,

Lex Fridman (31:31.440)

deeply committed to finding answers in life.

Lex Fridman (31:37.340)

And there's some answers that I don't think

Lex Fridman (31:38.900)

there's an answer to.

Lex Fridman (31:39.740)

And I'm also very OCD by nature,

Lex Fridman (31:42.100)

so I just don't give up to that.

Dan Reynolds (31:43.940)

I'm like, well, there must be somewhere in Tibet,

Lex Fridman (31:46.980)

there's some teacher or there's somebody out there

Dan Reynolds (31:49.980)

that has the answer,

Lex Fridman (31:51.700)

or maybe it's yet to be found, I'm gonna find it.

Dan Reynolds (31:55.460)

I'm really, my life has been to date

Lex Fridman (31:59.660)

probably unhealthily committed to finding answers

Dan Reynolds (32:03.620)

about God or the lack thereof and mortality.

Lex Fridman (32:10.420)

It's all I sing about.

Dan Reynolds (32:11.500)

It's all our records have been about.

Lex Fridman (32:13.860)

Who do you think is God?

Lex Fridman (32:15.540)

Have you ever gotten a glimpse?

Lex Fridman (32:17.660)

You know, I will say the closest I feel like

Dan Reynolds (32:20.260)

I have been to experiencing God is,

Lex Fridman (32:24.860)

and this sounds so, maybe, I don't know.

Dan Reynolds (32:29.980)

I don't know how it sounds,

Lex Fridman (32:30.820)

but it's through ayahuasca for me.

Dan Reynolds (32:33.580)

That's my honest answer for you.

Lex Fridman (32:34.580)

I feel like I had pretty much given up all hope

Dan Reynolds (32:38.100)

of there being anything greater than, you know,

Lex Fridman (32:42.940)

us being, you know, evolving and being here and then dying

Lex Fridman (32:47.700)

and you're gone and that's it and nothingness

Lex Fridman (32:50.140)

and from nothingness we came and nothingness we go.

Dan Reynolds (32:53.180)

To where I am now, which is there are answers to be found.

Lex Fridman (32:57.660)

I don't know them.

Dan Reynolds (32:58.900)

Like, I don't know what God looks like

Lex Fridman (33:00.300)

or if God has anything to do with the word God

Lex Fridman (33:03.020)

and the way that we say it,

Lex Fridman (33:04.780)

but I do believe pretty fervently

Dan Reynolds (33:07.260)

that there is more to be found.

Lex Fridman (33:11.420)

Is it motion sensor or no?

Dan Reynolds (33:13.100)

I don't know what that was.

Lex Fridman (33:14.140)

Looked like they've all died, actually.

Lex Fridman (33:17.500)

Do you know which one of it?

Lex Fridman (33:18.340)

Is it this one right here?

Lex Fridman (33:19.620)

Why don't I just take it out, but then it'd be too dark.

Lex Fridman (33:21.940)

That's fine.

Dan Reynolds (33:24.180)

Take it out.

Lex Fridman (33:27.420)

Do you want to hold this chair?

Dan Reynolds (33:29.620)

See if I can get it like this.

Lex Fridman (33:31.060)

Yeah.

Dan Reynolds (33:35.660)

Almost there.

Lex Fridman (33:37.300)

I really don't know how I'm gonna catch this though.

Dan Reynolds (33:39.860)

It's gotta be like something saying about this.

Lex Fridman (33:44.620)

There we go.

Dan Reynolds (33:47.020)

It's my Chinese proverb.

Lex Fridman (33:47.980)

Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman (33:49.820)

How many people does it take to,

Lex Fridman (33:51.820)

what is it, unscrew a light bulb?

Dan Reynolds (33:53.420)

A light bulb.

Lex Fridman (33:54.260)

It was hot too.

Dan Reynolds (33:55.100)

It was like I was doing the two finger technique.

Lex Fridman (33:57.860)

Yeah.

Dan Reynolds (33:58.700)

Well, I'm glad you survived that.

Lex Fridman (34:00.060)

Thanks.

Dan Reynolds (34:01.060)

That'd be pretty ironic if we're talking about mortality

Lex Fridman (34:03.340)

and then this would be it for you.

Dan Reynolds (34:05.300)

In that moment.

Lex Fridman (34:07.900)

I've never done ayahuasca, so it's a mixture of two plants.

Dan Reynolds (34:11.260)

One of them is DMT, but a lot of people I really respect.

Lex Fridman (34:14.940)

Very, very intelligent people had profound experiences

Dan Reynolds (34:20.180)

with ayahuasca.

Lex Fridman (34:21.500)

What is that?

Lex Fridman (34:22.540)

Where do you go?

Lex Fridman (34:23.380)

Where does the mind go?

Lex Fridman (34:24.220)

What the heck is up with that?

Lex Fridman (34:26.340)

I'll first say that I can't even smoke weed.

Dan Reynolds (34:29.940)

I really do not enjoy it because I hate to let go of control.

Lex Fridman (34:37.180)

If I feel out of control in life,

Dan Reynolds (34:39.820)

it's like one of my biggest weaknesses.

Lex Fridman (34:41.900)

It's like very scary for me.

Lex Fridman (34:43.700)

And some people really enjoy letting go in that way.

Lex Fridman (34:48.420)

I really don't.

Lex Fridman (34:50.020)

So I was pretty terrified to make the jump then to ayahuasca.

Lex Fridman (34:53.980)

But my wife who I deeply respect

Dan Reynolds (34:59.580)

made a profound change through ayahuasca.

Lex Fridman (35:03.260)

And I saw it.

Dan Reynolds (35:04.100)

She led the way.

Lex Fridman (35:05.060)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (35:05.900)

And it wasn't a strange, like I think most,

Lex Fridman (35:08.420)

we have a thing in America that's like a misconception,

Dan Reynolds (35:11.980)

a stigma on psychedelics where it's like,

Lex Fridman (35:17.340)

it's a drug and it makes some people crazy.

Lex Fridman (35:20.940)

And then you're gonna be on the street

Lex Fridman (35:22.140)

and you're gonna be out of your mind

Dan Reynolds (35:23.100)

or you're gonna become like a crazy person basically.

Lex Fridman (35:28.980)

And I think I really bought into that notion

Dan Reynolds (35:32.020)

because again, I was raised,

Lex Fridman (35:33.340)

I wasn't even raised with cable TV.

Lex Fridman (35:34.700)

You know what I mean?

Lex Fridman (35:35.540)

Like ayahuasca is very, I didn't, you know.

Dan Reynolds (35:38.780)

You can imagine what that was like for a Mormon kid.

Lex Fridman (35:40.740)

I didn't know anything about it

Lex Fridman (35:41.620)

and I never touched drugs at all

Lex Fridman (35:42.780)

and never even touched a cigarette, you know.

Dan Reynolds (35:47.180)

Anyway, so I think we have this misconception about it

Lex Fridman (35:50.060)

where Americans are quick to go to their doctor

Lex Fridman (35:52.860)

and take any medication or drug,

Lex Fridman (35:57.860)

but you know, whoa, when it comes to like psychedelics.

Dan Reynolds (36:05.900)

Anyway, that being said,

Lex Fridman (36:08.500)

so I had that trepidation going into it,

Lex Fridman (36:10.140)

but I really love and respect my wife

Lex Fridman (36:11.820)

and I saw it make a profound impact in her life

Dan Reynolds (36:13.900)

where she suddenly was able to heal

Lex Fridman (36:18.500)

from a lot of trauma that she had.

Dan Reynolds (36:19.780)

She had a really, she went through a lot in her life

Lex Fridman (36:22.740)

and it really helped her heal,

Lex Fridman (36:24.460)

but it also set her in a new path spiritually

Lex Fridman (36:27.140)

that seemed really like a place that I wanted to be.

Lex Fridman (36:32.340)

So I did it and I did it twice.

Lex Fridman (36:35.580)

The first time it didn't really have an effect on me,

Dan Reynolds (36:37.580)

which happens to a lot of people, I guess.

Lex Fridman (36:40.700)

I drank this little thing

Lex Fridman (36:42.460)

and there was like this shaman who came over from overseas

Lex Fridman (36:45.180)

that was really, had been in the plant world for decades

Lex Fridman (36:51.100)

and was a really incredible,

Lex Fridman (36:54.420)

I don't even know if he likes to be called shaman, but.

Lex Fridman (36:57.420)

So it's supposed to be like 30, 60 minute to take effect

Lex Fridman (37:00.300)

and a few hours, the journey lasts.

Dan Reynolds (37:05.340)

About four hours. Four hours.

Lex Fridman (37:07.540)

Yeah, so the second time I took it,

Dan Reynolds (37:08.740)

I took it in, I would say 20, 30 minutes in exactly.

Lex Fridman (37:12.460)

I started to feel like I was like the dimension

Dan Reynolds (37:19.580)

of what is reality, the curtain was pulled open

Lex Fridman (37:23.900)

and there was a lot more to discover

Lex Fridman (37:29.980)

and it really blew my mind in a way

Lex Fridman (37:31.620)

that I think it would probably blow anybody's mind

Dan Reynolds (37:34.540)

if for instance, God descended or some Christian God

Lex Fridman (37:37.740)

or whatever it is.

Dan Reynolds (37:38.860)

We all think it'd be this beautiful thing,

Lex Fridman (37:40.220)

but in reality, it would probably make people super fearful

Lex Fridman (37:42.780)

and think that they've lost their mind.

Lex Fridman (37:45.220)

Like I've always, yeah, I've always like joked

Dan Reynolds (37:48.180)

that if the Mormon God came down and told my mom like,

Lex Fridman (37:51.980)

if God himself came down and told my mom,

Dan Reynolds (37:53.940)

Mormonism is incorrect, she would say, Satan.

Lex Fridman (37:57.140)

Yeah.

Dan Reynolds (37:57.980)

You know, it's like, we're never,

Lex Fridman (37:59.380)

I think our minds are just not prepared

Dan Reynolds (38:01.180)

for a lot of anything that's really extreme

Lex Fridman (38:05.860)

and it was very extreme.

Dan Reynolds (38:07.460)

It was like the curtain of life was cut open,

Lex Fridman (38:10.620)

which scared me, but then I felt very much

Lex Fridman (38:13.460)

and a lot of people that I've talked to

Lex Fridman (38:15.700)

have a similar thing where I felt very much

Dan Reynolds (38:17.660)

like I was either communicating with something

Lex Fridman (38:20.900)

that was perceived as God to me

Dan Reynolds (38:23.660)

or highest sense of self or mind or mother earth

Lex Fridman (38:28.260)

or you know, it's called so many different names,

Lex Fridman (38:29.860)

but it's really, it's very, a lot of people

Lex Fridman (38:33.580)

have a very spiritual, similar experience with ayahuasca.

Lex Fridman (38:37.660)

And just in that, it's like this kind of profoundness.

Lex Fridman (38:40.260)

It wasn't like, there was nothing at least for me

Dan Reynolds (38:43.580)

that was, that felt like just like psychedelic,

Lex Fridman (38:48.180)

funny cartoons or something.

Dan Reynolds (38:49.780)

It was like, I'm about to go on a journey

Lex Fridman (38:52.580)

and I'm gonna communicate,

Dan Reynolds (38:54.500)

I'm communicating with something that feels incredibly wise,

Lex Fridman (38:58.260)

showed me a lot of things in my life,

Dan Reynolds (39:00.820)

kind of almost like from a bird's eye,

Lex Fridman (39:02.300)

almost like I was looking through a video camera

Dan Reynolds (39:03.940)

at a younger me.

Lex Fridman (39:05.940)

There was a particular thing that it communicated to me.

Dan Reynolds (39:11.820)

I really have a hard time with accepting success

Lex Fridman (39:15.740)

and not feeling like feeling undeserving or something.

Dan Reynolds (39:21.380)

I can't quite put it into words,

Lex Fridman (39:22.900)

but of my position and what I've been given,

Dan Reynolds (39:25.820)

I've been given so much.

Lex Fridman (39:30.620)

And it showed me this thing from when I was young

Lex Fridman (39:32.980)

and explained to me why I am where I am now.

Lex Fridman (39:35.060)

And I, to this day, it did not feel like myself

Dan Reynolds (39:40.220)

telling myself that.

Lex Fridman (39:41.220)

That's the only way I can explain it.

Lex Fridman (39:42.980)

And there was a lot more that it showed me

Lex Fridman (39:45.140)

and that was incredibly healing for me.

Lex Fridman (39:47.620)

But just to be like, to put it into a short thing

Lex Fridman (39:52.620)

because there's so much to this.

Dan Reynolds (39:55.940)

It felt, I walked away feeling very convinced

Lex Fridman (39:58.940)

that there is more to be known, for sure.

Lex Fridman (40:04.180)

And a lot of my deep things that were traumatic for me

Lex Fridman (40:10.420)

didn't feel traumatic anymore,

Dan Reynolds (40:12.620)

specifically crisis of faith.

Lex Fridman (40:14.420)

I was very angry at my parents and my community

Dan Reynolds (40:19.140)

for raising me in what I perceived to be falsehoods.

Lex Fridman (40:25.780)

And that, I felt like the bedrock of everything I believed

Dan Reynolds (40:30.820)

was ripped out for me in my 20s.

Lex Fridman (40:32.540)

And then it was like, good luck in life.

Lex Fridman (40:35.420)

But really my parents had given me everything

Lex Fridman (40:37.380)

that they could.

Lex Fridman (40:38.220)

And they believed that very much so, still.

Lex Fridman (40:41.740)

But a naive young me was angry

Lex Fridman (40:44.500)

and felt like they had been duped

Lex Fridman (40:46.860)

and thus I had been duped.

Lex Fridman (40:49.340)

But Ayahuasca really showed me this roadmap of like,

Lex Fridman (40:53.860)

this is truth and you're concerning yourself

Dan Reynolds (40:56.260)

about a grain of sand, which is Mormonism or whatever it is.

Lex Fridman (40:59.780)

And there may be some truths in that tiny grain of sand

Lex Fridman (41:02.740)

and there may be falsities.

Lex Fridman (41:04.540)

But so is all these other grains of sand,

Dan Reynolds (41:06.140)

like focus on the truth.

Lex Fridman (41:07.820)

Stop focusing on these little details that are meaningless

Lex Fridman (41:10.580)

and forgive and let go of people believing

Lex Fridman (41:13.460)

in those things to begin with.

Dan Reynolds (41:15.540)

I don't know if that makes sense,

Lex Fridman (41:17.300)

but that was like the core thing I was taught

Lex Fridman (41:20.260)

and to let go of control, stop needing to control everything.

Lex Fridman (41:24.260)

And it felt like the wisdom was coming from elsewhere.

Dan Reynolds (41:26.660)

Like it's really, I do not believe,

Lex Fridman (41:30.180)

at least in my current self, I don't have that,

Dan Reynolds (41:33.020)

the mindfulness that I believe that exists in me

Lex Fridman (41:37.020)

to reach a lot of the conclusions that I did.

Lex Fridman (41:39.140)

And there was a lot more to it

Lex Fridman (41:41.020)

that would be for like a late night conversation with you.

Lex Fridman (41:43.340)

But it's so hard to put it into,

Lex Fridman (41:47.540)

you feel like a crazy person.

Dan Reynolds (41:48.820)

Any, at least anytime I talk about ayahuasca

Lex Fridman (41:50.860)

to someone who hasn't done it,

Dan Reynolds (41:51.780)

I'm like, I don't even know where to begin.

Lex Fridman (41:53.300)

Like, how do you explain to someone

Dan Reynolds (41:55.580)

that you felt like that a multiple dimension type thing

Lex Fridman (41:59.740)

happened in a way that like putting it into words is,

Lex Fridman (42:03.180)

and none of it was words, by the way,

Lex Fridman (42:04.580)

that was communicated to me.

Dan Reynolds (42:05.860)

It was like, you know how people talk about telepathy.

Lex Fridman (42:09.900)

And if it existed, it would be like,

Dan Reynolds (42:12.140)

I could communicate to you in such a deeper way.

Lex Fridman (42:14.140)

I'm so confined by me having to articulate these words

Lex Fridman (42:16.980)

and put them in a sentence to you, Lex,

Lex Fridman (42:18.540)

and then tell you like, if only I could just be like,

Lex Fridman (42:23.060)

and emotions do that sometimes, right?

Lex Fridman (42:24.540)

You could see my emotions and be like,

Dan Reynolds (42:26.540)

oh, that communicates a lot.

Lex Fridman (42:28.380)

So that's what it felt like to me with ayahuasca

Dan Reynolds (42:30.780)

is it felt like it was communicating to me very clear things,

Lex Fridman (42:34.380)

but it wasn't like, Daniel, it's me, Mother Earth.

Dan Reynolds (42:38.540)

Let me relax, sit back, let me show you.

Lex Fridman (42:41.300)

But it was very clear to me what was being said.

Lex Fridman (42:44.500)

And no, it did not feel like me,

Lex Fridman (42:46.660)

but maybe smarter people than me who've done it would say,

Dan Reynolds (42:50.060)

well, it was you and blah, blah, blah.

Lex Fridman (42:51.620)

I don't know, but it was very convincing.

Dan Reynolds (42:53.500)

There's a lot of stuff in that subconscious

Lex Fridman (42:55.660)

that we haven't explored.

Dan Reynolds (42:59.300)

Like we haven't explored the depths of the ocean.

Lex Fridman (43:01.580)

We haven't really figured out what's that,

Dan Reynolds (43:03.580)

the younging shadow, what's going on underneath

Lex Fridman (43:06.300)

the surface of our conscious mind.

Lex Fridman (43:08.620)

And what is that connecting to?

Lex Fridman (43:10.380)

Is that just inside our mind or is it some kind of,

Dan Reynolds (43:13.500)

is there some kind of collective intelligence going on

Lex Fridman (43:15.820)

where all humans are connected

Lex Fridman (43:16.940)

to one kind of greater organism?

Lex Fridman (43:20.900)

Like what is consciousness?

Dan Reynolds (43:22.500)

We have a lot of hubris in thinking we understand

Lex Fridman (43:25.620)

any of it, like how the mind works at all.

Dan Reynolds (43:28.620)

Like what is it, like where,

Lex Fridman (43:32.140)

what is the origin of consciousness?

Lex Fridman (43:34.900)

What is the origin of intelligence?

Lex Fridman (43:37.460)

There's a lot of hubris about this.

Dan Reynolds (43:39.100)

We give each other PhDs and Nobel prizes

Lex Fridman (43:43.180)

and congratulate ourselves as if we figured it all out.

Lex Fridman (43:46.820)

But humility is helpful here.

Lex Fridman (43:48.740)

Nevertheless, that is the question

Dan Reynolds (43:50.300)

that humans have been asking for

Lex Fridman (43:53.740)

ever since humans were humans,

Dan Reynolds (43:56.700)

which is the question of mortality, the question of God.

Lex Fridman (44:02.460)

So whether it's Hamlet to be or not to be,

Dan Reynolds (44:05.980)

I think that's the hardest, the most important question.

Lex Fridman (44:08.660)

Albert Camus asked, why live?

Lex Fridman (44:17.020)

So in terms of crisis of faith,

Lex Fridman (44:18.740)

in terms of your search for truth,

Dan Reynolds (44:20.060)

in terms of some of the dark places

Lex Fridman (44:21.580)

you've gone in your mind,

Lex Fridman (44:23.220)

what's a good answer to this question?

Lex Fridman (44:27.020)

So for Camus with Mithos Sisyphus,

Dan Reynolds (44:29.580)

it was the question of suicide.

Lex Fridman (44:33.780)

Is, what's the purpose?

Dan Reynolds (44:36.540)

Like, what's a good answer to why keep going,

Lex Fridman (44:40.780)

especially when you're struggling,

Dan Reynolds (44:42.500)

especially when you're not,

Lex Fridman (44:47.180)

when you're feeling hopeless,

Dan Reynolds (44:50.060)

when you're feeling like a burden in this search for truth,

Lex Fridman (44:54.900)

where you feel like you're surrounded by lies,

Lex Fridman (44:57.340)

what's a good answer to why live?

Lex Fridman (45:00.580)

You ever found one?

Dan Reynolds (45:02.540)

Well, the simple answer right now is to say for,

Lex Fridman (45:06.340)

it's very easy once you have kids to say,

Dan Reynolds (45:09.140)

the right answer is you just,

Lex Fridman (45:10.540)

of course you brought these kids into the world,

Lex Fridman (45:13.460)

so you have a responsibility that I feel deeply as a father

Lex Fridman (45:17.220)

to them to always be there for as long as I humanly can

Lex Fridman (45:21.540)

and to take care of them and protect them.

Lex Fridman (45:23.140)

It's the most innate sense in me,

Dan Reynolds (45:26.380)

just, it's wired in my animal existence.

Lex Fridman (45:31.380)

So if I take that away, right,

Dan Reynolds (45:33.740)

because that's kind of cheating.

Lex Fridman (45:35.100)

Let's put that aside because it is cheating.

Dan Reynolds (45:37.220)

It's cheating.

Lex Fridman (45:38.060)

There's still some fundamental way in which you're alone.

Dan Reynolds (45:41.780)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (45:42.740)

And to that, that actually has been a real struggle for me

Dan Reynolds (45:48.020)

for many years.

Lex Fridman (45:49.060)

I had a real turning point early in my career

Dan Reynolds (45:52.020)

where we were flying somewhere overseas

Lex Fridman (45:57.020)

and we were in a really small plane

Lex Fridman (46:02.020)

and the lights went out

Lex Fridman (46:04.340)

and like all these red lights were flashing

Lex Fridman (46:06.460)

and the plane just started to dive.

Lex Fridman (46:08.980)

Completely like scariest plane experience I've ever been in.

Dan Reynolds (46:13.420)

My manager was next to me, who's my brother.

Lex Fridman (46:16.060)

He was crying and texting his wife a goodbye.

Dan Reynolds (46:20.540)

That's how like crazy this moment was.

Lex Fridman (46:23.260)

Was it real like genuine?

Dan Reynolds (46:24.700)

Like genuine engine went out, plane is going down,

Lex Fridman (46:30.140)

pilots looking like crazy in the front

Lex Fridman (46:33.700)

and it was a really tiny jet.

Lex Fridman (46:36.420)

And like I said, my brother next to me crying,

Dan Reynolds (46:39.460)

typing a text to his wife.

Lex Fridman (46:40.780)

Really, really scary.

Lex Fridman (46:42.860)

And I felt nothing.

Lex Fridman (46:45.660)

I genuinely sat there and I was like,

Dan Reynolds (46:50.740)

this might actually be nice.

Lex Fridman (46:52.620)

Like I really felt like this goes down

Lex Fridman (46:56.740)

and like, ah man, life sucks and it's hard.

Lex Fridman (47:00.820)

And that sounds so ridiculous I know to say

Dan Reynolds (47:02.900)

because again, I'm in a different place now

Lex Fridman (47:05.580)

and I see my life for what it is.

Lex Fridman (47:07.260)

But at that moment I did not.

Lex Fridman (47:09.300)

So life was primarily defined by suffering,

Dan Reynolds (47:11.620)

it was a burden.

Lex Fridman (47:12.460)

It was, I felt I was incredibly depressed.

Dan Reynolds (47:16.180)

I had been trying different medications since I was young

Lex Fridman (47:20.740)

and I just had not found anything that was working for me.

Lex Fridman (47:24.460)

And then I was in a faith crisis, lost all my faith,

Lex Fridman (47:29.020)

started a band that's just became,

Dan Reynolds (47:31.420)

I wasn't ever thinking that this band.

Lex Fridman (47:33.620)

I was like, when you call your band Imagine Dragons,

Lex Fridman (47:35.940)

you're not thinking that band's gonna be big, okay?

Lex Fridman (47:38.500)

It was like, I was like,

Dan Reynolds (47:41.180)

this was like a side project that was fun for me.

Lex Fridman (47:43.780)

It was like art in college.

Dan Reynolds (47:45.780)

I was in school and I was like,

Lex Fridman (47:47.500)

man, I hate this biology class.

Dan Reynolds (47:49.020)

I'm gonna write down band names.

Lex Fridman (47:50.340)

Like, you know what I mean?

Dan Reynolds (47:51.180)

Like it was not, hey, put everything aside,

Lex Fridman (47:55.100)

this is my career, let's go.

Dan Reynolds (47:56.900)

Like it just, it happened.

Lex Fridman (48:00.260)

And I'm an introvert by nature.

Dan Reynolds (48:03.100)

I'm really not an extroverted person

Lex Fridman (48:05.060)

who likes to go out and like,

Dan Reynolds (48:07.780)

I like to be at home with a couple of friends

Lex Fridman (48:09.780)

and have a late night conversation over good food.

Dan Reynolds (48:12.420)

Like that to me is a perfect night.

Lex Fridman (48:14.220)

Read a good book, listen to a podcast, go on a walk.

Dan Reynolds (48:17.480)

You know, those are things that I really, really enjoy.

Lex Fridman (48:21.520)

And suddenly I'm in this life where I'm like

Dan Reynolds (48:23.080)

supposed to be something that I really don't wanna be.

Lex Fridman (48:26.840)

Except for on stage, which is a really fast,

Dan Reynolds (48:29.280)

like strange thing to me, which is on stage,

Lex Fridman (48:31.040)

I feel so free and exuberant and like an extrovert.

Lex Fridman (48:35.840)

And then I come off and I just feel like

Lex Fridman (48:37.480)

shrivel back into a shell.

Dan Reynolds (48:38.800)

Like it's, music does that for me

Lex Fridman (48:41.680)

and performing on a stage does that for me.

Lex Fridman (48:43.480)

Can we take a small tangent on that?

Lex Fridman (48:44.840)

Yeah, yeah, of course.

Dan Reynolds (48:45.680)

What's the high,

Lex Fridman (48:47.000)

can we go through that the introvert

Lex Fridman (48:49.480)

that wants to cuddle up and read a book?

Lex Fridman (48:52.440)

You're the front man of one of the,

Dan Reynolds (48:54.400)

if not the biggest rock bands today,

Lex Fridman (48:59.160)

playing in front of huge crowds.

Lex Fridman (49:02.960)

What's the high of that and how can you land back on Earth?

Lex Fridman (49:10.140)

The high of it,

Dan Reynolds (49:11.360)

it's incredibly beautiful

Lex Fridman (49:15.880)

to walk on a stage,

Dan Reynolds (49:19.120)

sing these songs that you wrote

Lex Fridman (49:22.740)

and see it resonate with people around you

Lex Fridman (49:25.580)

and sing with them.

Lex Fridman (49:27.320)

Different cultures, different places,

Dan Reynolds (49:29.600)

celebrate life.

Lex Fridman (49:30.720)

It's suddenly the world seems like a fantastic place.

Dan Reynolds (49:34.120)

It feels like we're all on the same team.

Lex Fridman (49:37.400)

It's like one big hug.

Dan Reynolds (49:38.660)

Yeah, it's like everybody in that room gets it

Lex Fridman (49:40.820)

and they all, like it just,

Dan Reynolds (49:45.760)

it feels like what you want the world to be,

Lex Fridman (49:47.840)

which is just like this coexisting unit of people

Lex Fridman (49:50.640)

and it's not even about like,

Lex Fridman (49:54.280)

it's incredible, for sure, it's incredible

Lex Fridman (49:56.600)

and I love it and I wouldn't do it unless I loved it.

Lex Fridman (49:59.760)

And then you walk off stage and you turn on the news

Lex Fridman (50:01.600)

and it's like, you see, we're all against each other,

Lex Fridman (50:04.480)

everybody hates each other

Lex Fridman (50:05.520)

and it feels that way in the world.

Lex Fridman (50:07.340)

So music really, that's why live music is so important

Dan Reynolds (50:11.160)

to people, that's why music is so important to people.

Lex Fridman (50:13.880)

Because even if it's just you and that person

Dan Reynolds (50:15.520)

that wrote the song, you're listening to it

Lex Fridman (50:16.960)

and the two of you feel connected.

Dan Reynolds (50:19.640)

You know, it's like you're hearing Tracy Chapman

Lex Fridman (50:23.060)

sing like Fast Car or something,

Dan Reynolds (50:24.800)

you're just like, oh my gosh, like yes, I get it.

Lex Fridman (50:27.900)

And you feel connected to that person, you don't feel alone.

Lex Fridman (50:31.360)

So that's the high of it, for sure.

Lex Fridman (50:33.080)

And then you get off stage and then, you know,

Dan Reynolds (50:36.280)

as my, like my uncle is a heart surgeon,

Lex Fridman (50:39.320)

incredible heart surgeon who like writes the book.

Dan Reynolds (50:42.720)

Like he's like the guy that the heart surgeons talk to,

Lex Fridman (50:45.200)

he's out of Nashville, Tennessee,

Dan Reynolds (50:46.360)

he's just an incredible genius man.

Lex Fridman (50:48.600)

He always worries and always reached out to me.

Dan Reynolds (50:53.840)

He's like, musicians die all the time

Lex Fridman (50:55.800)

and the reason they die, you know,

Dan Reynolds (50:58.120)

is because you're getting on stage

Lex Fridman (50:59.240)

and your heart's doing this

Lex Fridman (51:00.080)

and your cortisol levels are doing this,

Lex Fridman (51:01.280)

you're getting off stage and then you're just doing this.

Lex Fridman (51:03.520)

And it's a really real thing.

Lex Fridman (51:05.040)

Like you get off stage and you feel like you need drugs

Dan Reynolds (51:07.600)

because you're like, the world feels like,

Lex Fridman (51:11.240)

oh, incredibly daunting.

Lex Fridman (51:12.960)

And it's also, I'm sure, has to do with like

Lex Fridman (51:15.280)

some like health things in your heart

Lex Fridman (51:17.640)

and the cortisol levels that are so crazy

Lex Fridman (51:19.960)

and then you come off and it's like,

Dan Reynolds (51:22.840)

I know people are like, well, then nothing's enough,

Lex Fridman (51:25.160)

except meth, you know what I mean, right?

Dan Reynolds (51:27.120)

Nothing's enough except heroin.

Lex Fridman (51:28.940)

And that's why a lot of artists turn to that stuff.

Lex Fridman (51:30.880)

And I don't say it in a preachy way,

Lex Fridman (51:33.440)

like I've struggled with drug abuse in my life.

Lex Fridman (51:36.280)

And I really, I understand why artists turn to it.

Lex Fridman (51:43.400)

But also the fact that you're an introvert.

Lex Fridman (51:46.540)

So the other side of it, the fame.

Lex Fridman (51:50.400)

That's something that you also said

Dan Reynolds (51:51.800)

is a double edged sword for you.

Lex Fridman (51:53.560)

The interesting thing about fame,

Dan Reynolds (51:55.960)

is that you also mentioned,

Lex Fridman (51:57.080)

is it something you can't take back?

Dan Reynolds (51:59.680)

Yeah.

Lex Fridman (52:00.520)

It's the thing, you can't just like go on vacation

Lex Fridman (52:04.080)

in Hawaii and it's like, consider, do I like it or not?

Lex Fridman (52:06.300)

No, you're staying in Hawaii for the rest of your life

Lex Fridman (52:08.600)

and you've never been there before,

Lex Fridman (52:10.840)

whether you like it or not.

Lex Fridman (52:12.600)

So what's that like being loved by millions

Lex Fridman (52:18.860)

and millions and millions of people,

Dan Reynolds (52:22.280)

which is perhaps the best kind of fame

Lex Fridman (52:26.320)

in terms of if you have to choose the kinds of fame

Dan Reynolds (52:28.360)

that there are.

Lex Fridman (52:29.520)

And still being an introvert and all that kind of stuff.

Lex Fridman (52:32.720)

So what, do you feel alone?

Lex Fridman (52:37.480)

More alone being famous?

Lex Fridman (52:40.200)

Is there a loneliness to it?

Lex Fridman (52:41.520)

Yeah, I mean, it's such a funny thing.

Dan Reynolds (52:44.720)

Okay, if you had asked,

Lex Fridman (52:45.540)

if we were having this conversation a couple of years ago,

Dan Reynolds (52:47.360)

I'd be incredibly guarded about this

Lex Fridman (52:49.080)

because the last thing I wanna ever do

Dan Reynolds (52:54.200)

is sound ungrateful or unaware of how much I have

Lex Fridman (52:58.620)

and woe is the famous celebrity with money.

Lex Fridman (53:02.000)

Oh, is your life hard?

Lex Fridman (53:03.040)

Is it really telling me about how hard it is?

Lex Fridman (53:05.380)

But I'm also at a place in life now

Lex Fridman (53:06.640)

where I just like, I'm gonna always just speak my truth

Dan Reynolds (53:08.720)

because that's the only reason I'm here

Lex Fridman (53:10.120)

is I'm here to speak my truth to you.

Lex Fridman (53:11.600)

So I'm gonna tell you my truth,

Lex Fridman (53:12.600)

whether it's whatever it is.

Lex Fridman (53:14.440)

But you're human and feelings are real.

Lex Fridman (53:17.520)

And so, and that's the interesting thing.

Lex Fridman (53:20.040)

You win a lottery, what's that gonna feel like?

Lex Fridman (53:22.360)

It's not about complaining, oh, it's so hard to win a lottery

Dan Reynolds (53:25.080)

because you get a lot of money.

Lex Fridman (53:25.960)

No, it's still, you're human.

Dan Reynolds (53:27.960)

You get to experience these feelings and it's fascinating.

Lex Fridman (53:30.760)

You put humans in different situations.

Lex Fridman (53:33.200)

And it's also fascinating because a lot of people think,

Lex Fridman (53:35.680)

well, I would like to be famous.

Dan Reynolds (53:38.080)

That's a big thing now on social media and Instagram

Lex Fridman (53:40.440)

and so on.

Dan Reynolds (53:41.280)

The whole world wants to be famous.

Lex Fridman (53:42.120)

Or rich or famous.

Lex Fridman (53:43.340)

And then it's very interesting to think, all right,

Lex Fridman (53:45.200)

well, once you arrive, are all the problems solved?

Dan Reynolds (53:49.680)

No, yeah.

Lex Fridman (53:50.520)

So I will tell you, according to me,

Lex Fridman (53:52.480)

what the pitfalls are, whether it's true or not.

Lex Fridman (53:54.760)

And there are certainly some pitfalls.

Dan Reynolds (53:56.280)

One, it's once you're there, you can't go back.

Lex Fridman (54:00.080)

Whatever, maybe that's fine.

Dan Reynolds (54:01.360)

Cause maybe you love it.

Lex Fridman (54:02.960)

But the real pitfall for me is that you're now you're Lex

Lex Fridman (54:09.900)

and you're what everybody's perception is that Lex is.

Lex Fridman (54:13.360)

And that's what you are.

Dan Reynolds (54:15.280)

Now Lex is probably a lot more complex and complicated

Lex Fridman (54:20.120)

and has a lot more to Lex than the Lex

Dan Reynolds (54:23.600)

that is the celebrity.

Lex Fridman (54:24.880)

So, but anybody who meets you, that's who you are to them.

Lex Fridman (54:32.680)

And you may, you may not feel this way,

Lex Fridman (54:35.280)

but you may feel confined to actually have to be that person

Dan Reynolds (54:37.760)

to that person.

Lex Fridman (54:39.280)

Like I've early in my career for a long time,

Dan Reynolds (54:41.800)

anytime I met someone, I suddenly felt like I had to be

Lex Fridman (54:44.320)

Dan Reynolds from Imagine Dragons.

Dan Reynolds (54:46.400)

Anytime I met someone, including my family now,

Lex Fridman (54:48.800)

who are also like, whoa, this is crazy.

Dan Reynolds (54:50.600)

You're like Dan Reynolds from Imagine Dragons.

Lex Fridman (54:52.920)

And I wanted to just be the goofball

Dan Reynolds (54:55.560)

that I have been my whole life with my brothers and family.

Lex Fridman (54:58.680)

But suddenly I found myself feeling like,

Dan Reynolds (55:00.720)

no, I have to be this.

Lex Fridman (55:02.720)

Like, cause that's who, that's who this is.

Lex Fridman (55:05.240)

So you're almost like playing a role.

Lex Fridman (55:06.720)

And it's like, I've heard a lot of actors talk about this

Dan Reynolds (55:08.760)

where they'll take on a role and then it's like,

Lex Fridman (55:10.320)

they feel like they have to, they like become that.

Lex Fridman (55:12.480)

And it's a really scary thing.

Lex Fridman (55:14.720)

Like you alter who you are almost

Dan Reynolds (55:17.720)

to fit the notion of other people.

Lex Fridman (55:19.960)

Cause especially if a lot of artists are empaths,

Dan Reynolds (55:24.520)

it, you know, a lot of people get into art

Lex Fridman (55:26.360)

in a deep way are empaths.

Lex Fridman (55:27.560)

And so you feel a lot of what people are feeling

Lex Fridman (55:31.240)

and you're never wanting to burden people.

Lex Fridman (55:33.320)

And you're always wanting to deliver to that person,

Lex Fridman (55:36.680)

you know, what they want is like people pleasing is very,

Dan Reynolds (55:39.240)

goes hand in hand with a lot of like these famous people.

Lex Fridman (55:42.960)

And they get to where they were

Dan Reynolds (55:44.200)

because they know how to do that.

Lex Fridman (55:45.880)

They know how to be in a room with someone

Lex Fridman (55:47.080)

and look them in the eye and make them feel

Lex Fridman (55:49.200)

like they're the only person in the room.

Lex Fridman (55:51.080)

And then now they got that role in that movie

Lex Fridman (55:52.960)

because they sat with the casting director

Lex Fridman (55:54.720)

and they were like, oh, you're so funny.

Lex Fridman (55:57.480)

Oh, has anybody told, like put on the charisma,

Dan Reynolds (55:59.520)

do it all.

Lex Fridman (56:00.360)

And it's like, anyway, I'm like,

Dan Reynolds (56:02.400)

I'm going on a different tangent here,

Lex Fridman (56:03.920)

but long story short, there's a lot of things

Dan Reynolds (56:07.160)

that are really unhealthy about it.

Lex Fridman (56:08.720)

And then a lot of people who want the fame,

Dan Reynolds (56:11.240)

then the second it starts to go away,

Lex Fridman (56:12.760)

then they're like, who am I anymore?

Dan Reynolds (56:14.840)

Like that was everything.

Lex Fridman (56:16.080)

And now I'm like on the down

Lex Fridman (56:17.360)

and now I'm not a famous person anymore.

Lex Fridman (56:19.240)

And now I hate myself and I'm going to do drugs.

Lex Fridman (56:21.720)

And it's like, it's like this vicious cycle,

Lex Fridman (56:24.040)

like you could never be famous enough.

Dan Reynolds (56:25.800)

You're always going to get like,

Lex Fridman (56:27.800)

there's just so much to it that I've just,

Lex Fridman (56:29.680)

and again, like I've lost friends

Lex Fridman (56:33.200)

in this career to do that for sure.

Lex Fridman (56:36.960)

And there's a certain element to sort of just

Lex Fridman (56:38.800)

on the losing fame of interacting with a lot of folks,

Dan Reynolds (56:44.880)

especially young folks like on YouTube.

Lex Fridman (56:46.880)

So fame is a thing that has levels.

Dan Reynolds (56:51.000)

You're always trying to be a little more famous.

Lex Fridman (56:52.920)

A lot of folks who are chasing fame,

Dan Reynolds (56:54.320)

it doesn't matter how famous you are,

Lex Fridman (56:55.160)

you're always trying to chase more.

Lex Fridman (56:56.680)

And when you start to lose it,

Lex Fridman (56:58.440)

interesting things can happen if you're not self aware,

Dan Reynolds (57:01.080)

which is like, like you mentioned,

Lex Fridman (57:03.920)

you might be trying to grasp back at where you were

Dan Reynolds (57:08.840)

by leaning into the formula that got you there.

Lex Fridman (57:11.440)

And so the constraints of the image that you mentioned

Dan Reynolds (57:15.600)

becomes the thing that you're now trying to lean into.

Lex Fridman (57:19.560)

And that's actually walking away from who you really are.

Dan Reynolds (57:22.600)

Like you lean further into being that person.

Lex Fridman (57:25.840)

That's true for acting.

Dan Reynolds (57:26.840)

That's true for even on like YouTube,

Lex Fridman (57:30.240)

which is people acting, they have a role.

Dan Reynolds (57:32.440)

They got them to the table somehow.

Lex Fridman (57:34.600)

Yeah, it's dark, but I think those are,

Dan Reynolds (57:39.520)

that's just put for everybody to see,

Lex Fridman (57:43.920)

but that's a very human struggle even when you're not famous.

Dan Reynolds (57:47.120)

Finding yourself, being yourself,

Lex Fridman (57:49.280)

of not letting, not doing the people pleasing at any scale

Lex Fridman (57:55.160)

and being trapped by that.

Lex Fridman (57:56.280)

Yeah, and also feeling like it's never enough.

Dan Reynolds (57:58.920)

I think that's something all, like it's not just

Lex Fridman (58:03.120)

a famous thing, but it's like in the whole,

Dan Reynolds (58:04.560)

like everybody deals with feeling like

Lex Fridman (58:06.360)

when I'm here, I'll be happy.

Dan Reynolds (58:08.640)

When I get that job, I'll be happy.

Lex Fridman (58:10.080)

When I have that money, then I'll be happy.

Dan Reynolds (58:12.760)

When I get that surgery and my nose looks like this,

Lex Fridman (58:16.000)

I will be happy then.

Dan Reynolds (58:17.240)

It's like a constant chase of happiness instead of happiness.

Lex Fridman (58:25.280)

It's like the opposite, it's opposite of self love.

Dan Reynolds (58:27.640)

It's the opposite of happiness.

Lex Fridman (58:30.640)

There's no presence to it.

Dan Reynolds (58:31.920)

You're constant, you're never going to find it.

Lex Fridman (58:34.200)

You're never gonna arrive and you're just gonna

Dan Reynolds (58:36.560)

live your life and then you're gonna be on your death bed

Lex Fridman (58:38.240)

and be like, I was chasing the wrong thing my whole life.

Dan Reynolds (58:43.600)

I should say that podcasts are interesting in that way.

Lex Fridman (58:46.280)

So for me personally, because you just talk a lot,

Dan Reynolds (58:49.280)

you can't, people that meet you, they know you

Lex Fridman (58:52.720)

and they know the evolution of you.

Lex Fridman (58:54.920)

And that's the same thing for like you right now,

Lex Fridman (58:58.760)

Dan of Imagine Dragons, just being on a podcast

Dan Reynolds (59:02.000)

like long form reveals a side that liberates you more

Lex Fridman (59:07.000)

to be yourself, to like, people see, oh, there's a human.

Dan Reynolds (59:12.200)

They, cause they, music, they have a deep connection

Lex Fridman (59:15.560)

with you, they have experiences with you

Dan Reynolds (59:18.520)

the way they experienced it and that's who you are

Lex Fridman (59:21.240)

with them through the songs.

Lex Fridman (59:22.800)

But now you get to see, oh, that's a human being.

Lex Fridman (59:26.080)

He probably gets angry, he gets sad, he's excited,

Dan Reynolds (59:29.360)

he's hopeful and there's a core, there's a good human being

Lex Fridman (59:33.240)

with the whole roller coaster of emotions all there.

Dan Reynolds (59:36.240)

It's a giant, beautiful mess.

Lex Fridman (59:37.560)

And podcasts reveal that, that's why I love podcasts

Dan Reynolds (59:39.920)

like long form, you get to hear some artists and actors

Lex Fridman (59:44.400)

and so on and some of them you get to see, oh,

Dan Reynolds (59:47.480)

you've lost yourself in the surface.

Lex Fridman (59:53.920)

That's a tragedy with some actors, some great actors.

Dan Reynolds (59:57.200)

They've left so much of themselves in the roles